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The Man Code Sucks!

 

Barney and Robin, How I Met Your Mother

Barney and Robin, How I Met Your Mother

Dear Aunt Sue,

Do you think guys and girls can really be friends? Or does it always get messed up? My boyfriend and I recently broke up, and I really miss some of his guy friends. I hung out with them for more than a year, and now it’s like they’re off limits. I especially feel close to this one guy, and I think he feels the same way. We would both like to stay friends, but I’m not sure how it would work. Hanging out alone might be awkward, since we’ve never really spent time together like that. And we’re both pretty sure my ex would veto the whole situation. It just seems like such a stupid waste-we get along really well, so I just don’t understand why we need to give that up just because of my ex.

Also, I’m not gonna lie-he’s hot. I’m not interested in him that way right now, but there has always been kind of a vibe between us, though neither of us has ever talked about it. Also, I don’t know if it matters, but my ex broke up with me. Things haven’t been great for a while, but I wanted to work on it, and I was pretty hurt that he walked. He moved on pretty quickly to hooking up with someone new, so it’s not like he’s sitting at home missing me or anything. What should I do?

Jen

wingmen

Dear Jen,

I’m glad you wrote, because this is a pretty common question, and I appreciate the opportunity to weigh in, i.e. bitch up a storm on the issue. First, let me clarify, by saying that you have actually asked two separate questions:

  1. Can guys and girls maintain a platonic friendship, or does it get too complicated in the sense that one person will develop emotional or sexual feelings for the other?
  2. How legit are the rules prohibiting getting involved with the friend of an ex?

With regard to the first question, my thinking about platonic friendships has evolved over the years. When I was in my teens and 20s I was convinced that it was impossible. Every friendship I ever tried to have with a guy got messed up by sexual tension. I always felt robbed when it got complicated – I didn’t understand why guys had to mess up a good thing by wanting to get physical. Once that drama was exposed, of course, the friendship was never the same and usually ended awkwardly.

Once I got into a long-term committed relationship, I counted many men among my friends. It was easy, though to tell the truth it was always easier when they were also in relationships. Now that I hang out with a lot of married couples, the friendships are really comfortable and devoid of tension. I think my experience is a pretty typical one. When people are in committed relationships, they usually choose not to act on the feelings of attraction that arise toward others. In fact, they neglect and repress those feelings so successfully that sexual tension does not have the opportunity to develop. There is no vibe, because both parties are strictly observing boundaries around commitment and fidelity.

However, when two young people are single and developing a friendship, they are not required to observe any boundaries. They are free to explore any impulses or urges that arise. So it’s very common for one person or the other to feel an attraction, and to communicate those feelings either in subtle or direct ways. If the attraction is mutual, the friendship changes as the relationship shifts. If the attraction is not returned, the friendship still changes, but now there is a problem to work through. Sometimes friendships survive that kind of drama. (In fact, sometimes friendships grow between people who were previously involved, though I must confess I have never had the desire to befriend an ex in that way.) It’s hard, though, and usually the rejected person benefits most from moving on entirely and getting past those feelings.

You mention a vibe with this guy, and that the two of you have talked about wanting to remain friends. I cannot see any reason why you should not become closer as friends. It sounds in this case like there may be a mutual attraction, though you are concerned about the timing; it is probably still too soon. Which brings us to the second question. The utterly ridiculous and absurd Man Code aka Bro Code. Originated by Maxim magazine, the Man Code gives guys permission to act like idiots.

Here is a sampling of rules from the Man Code:

  • When questioned by a friend’s girlfriend, you need not and should not provide any information as to his whereabouts. You are even permitted to deny his very existence.
  • The minimum amount of time you have to wait for another man is 5 minutes. The maximum is 6 minutes. For a girl, you are required to wait 10 minutes for every point of hotness she scores on the classic 1-10 scale.
  • Never allow a telephone conversation with a woman to go on longer than you are able to have sex with her. Keep a stopwatch nearby, and hang up if necessary.
  • It is the God-given duty of every man to assist any other man that may be in need of assistance in obtaining every guys’ dream (threesome with two girls).

Haha, rude. But there is one Man Code rule that has seriously taken hold and become law in the culture, and it’s making guys and girls everywhere miserable.

  • Under no circumstances may you ever hook up with a friend’s ex.

In fairness, there are obvious examples where observing this rule makes sense:

  • A guy who crushed your best friend.
  • A guy who behaved badly toward anyone you care about.
  • You should be sensitive to the timing of any breakup. A waiting period is the decent thing to do.

 

But never? Even if it was just a hookup? That’s harsh. I’ve had girls tell me they could never “go there” if their friend had hooked up with a guy randomly two years previously and it didn’t work out. OK, I understand, he hurt her feelings. But maybe that wasn’t totally his fault. Maybe she liked him more than he liked her. And you and he can never hang out and get close because of that ancient history? That’s just plain stupid. She needs to grow up and move on. There is a slightly less extreme variation that requires you to ask permission of said friend. But even that may be too limiting, if your friend is more emotional than rational.

As far as I am concerned, there is never any reason for anyone who has been dumped to seek permission from the dumper for anything.

Jen, you say that your boyfriend broke up with you, and has clearly moved on by hooking up with someone new. He has therefore proved, that He is Just Not Into You at All Anymore, and as such, has no right whatsoever to have an opinion on who you hang out or hook up with. In fact, I would argue that he has a moral obligation to wish the best for you, and if that means seeing you with his good friend, so be it. I just don’t see who gets hurt in that situation. Except his pride, and who gives a shit about that?

Screw the Man Code!

In summary, Jen, I think you an Ex’s friend should feel free to see whether there is the potential for something special between you, without any regard whatsoever for the feelings of Ex. In other words, go for it.

xoxo

Aunt Sue

  • http://singlutionary.com Singlutionary

    I love this post.

    a) The man code is hilarious. It is a joke and should be taken as one. There is nothing serious about it except that it is seriously funny.

    b) Ahh. Friendship with a guy (when you're a hetro woman and he is a hetro man). I agree that this seems to be easier when everyone is tidily partnered up in committed relationships. Since I am in my late 20s with no plans to partner anytime soon and the sneaking suspicion that I may never partner in a conventional way, I've had to think about being friends with men from the single state that is my present life. As I have gotten older I still don't have many male friends but I have observed two things about this dynamic:

    Sometimes I lose a female friend to marriage. She gets married or gets a boyfriend or falls in love and drops off the face of the earth. We used to be THERE for each other. Now she is nowhere to be found. At this point in my life I am a little reluctant to become close friends with women because this has happened to me so many times.

    But if a (hetro) male friend gets married or falls in love or gets in a relationship, he might not drop off the face of the earth but his wife/girlfriend/ball-and-chain might wish that I would drop off the face of the earth ASAP. And he has to make the choice between his marriage and our friendship. Her jealousy may be to totally unwarranted but it still leads to a rift somewhere at some point in time. This situation can be equally painful.

    But I feel as if the sexual tension issue has slowed now that I am a little bit older. Friendship is very important to me and I wouldn't risk the friendship for a hookup. If there was this unavoidable insurmountable xfiles level tension, we would have a conversation about it. Because we are adults. And because we are good friends and trust one another. Anyone worthy of my friendship is going to be respectful of where I am in my life and visa versa.

    So my suggestion is that you try and have a chat with your ex's friend. You can say: “Hey, I miss you. Do you think we can be friends? And by friends, I mean FRIENDS because I'm not looking for anything else at the moment.”

    You don't need to say it like THAT (because that would be hella dorky) but maybe through the course of a conversation, you could communicate the same thing in your own language?

  • susanawalsh

    Singlutionary, you raise some very good points based on your own experience. It is so true that our friendships can get really complicated when one person gets involved with someone, and issues around jealousy come up. And I love how you describe that things are a bit different now that you are in your late 20s.

    Re the Man Code, it is a total joke. But the rule about never ever hooking up with someone's “ex” gets observed to the letter. I just don't think there should be any rules. Every situation is different.

  • sauerkraut

    The Man Code maintains an order to the Universe.

    Woman should never mess with The Code. Seriously.

  • susanawalsh

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

  • Stiv Mackey

    Central to the Code is being Man, not male. Man must not ever put his hands on a woman, unless she likes it rough. Man must not harm a child. Have you seen battered women and abused children. Elder Men must “educate” young bucks on Man behavior. It's Love, Honor, Respect. Man puts Woman first- not last. There are thousands of males that need to have their Man Card revoked. Women must claim the Power of a Woman! It's called Mother Nature for a reason. That's Beauty, Wisdom and Innocence. About the Relationship aspect: if a male doesn't abide by the Code-he is a Princess and not Man. It's Ladies Choice!

  • Name

    The man code stands, don't try and mess with it. Lets say a girl breaks up with a guy then she hits on one of her ex's friends and then those two are friends and she leaves the second guy, where does that leave them? Don't mess with it, women can be real bitches sometimes.

  • susanawalsh

    Well, can't they all just deal with issues as they arise? Why have a hard and fast rule? If a woman is jerking two guys around, they should be able to get together and ice her out.

  • Megan

    I recently caught up with an old high school friend and we kind of had a talk about this. I didn't realize that his friendship with his best friend had been ruined because of a girl. I guess what happened was they liked the same girl, but the girl liked him more. He ended up dating her unaware of how much his friend liked her. His friend stopped talking to him. Kind of like the Barney/Ted situation that happened with Robin. I never really realized before how much it can affect a friendship but some guys just can't get over it. I mean this was high school and they are just starting to talk again and neither of them remotely know what happened to said girl. It is hard but sometimes friends really do out weigh the potential relationship. In another HIMYM episode Ted was had gotten together with an old ex from college who told him that he couldn't hang out with his friends anymore. His friends didn't like his girlfriend, but he said they had to deal. At the end of the episode he says to Robin “My friends don't have to like my girlfriend, but my girlfriend has to like my friends.” Our friends become our family especially when we don't live near our family. I think, though awful, some of these rules are in place so guys don't end up ruining friendships for a girl because as the last poster said some girls can be real bitches.

  • Sabs

    The ex-gf doesn't owe her ex-bf anything. However, the friends needs to talk to his bro BEFORE he makes a move on the girl. That shows that he respects the friendship and can be trusted as an honest person. If the ex-bf is truly a friend, he will realize that their relationship has ended and there is now freedom for everyone.

  • susanawalsh

    Hi Sabs, thanks for reading HUS and making a comment! I think you're right – the ideal thing would be for the guy to talk to his friend (the ex) and let him know what's up before he makes any kind of moves. I don't think he is required to ask permission, but it does seem respectful to tell the guy straight up what's going on. Good additional point!

  • Sabs

    The ex-gf doesn't owe her ex-bf anything. However, the friends needs to talk to his bro BEFORE he makes a move on the girl. That shows that he respects the friendship and can be trusted as an honest person. If the ex-bf is truly a friend, he will realize that their relationship has ended and there is now freedom for everyone.

  • susanawalsh

    Hi Sabs, thanks for reading HUS and making a comment! I think you're right – the ideal thing would be for the guy to talk to his friend (the ex) and let him know what's up before he makes any kind of moves. I don't think he is required to ask permission, but it does seem respectful to tell the guy straight up what's going on. Good additional point!

  • J_angeleyes

    I would just like to add that the man code is missquoted in the posts above.
    the code includes a headsup or that the man asks for permisson of the ex-bf before attempting anything with the ex-gf.
    The point of this is to be able to stay friends and avoid drama from a possibly aquard situation. For example the ex-bf being forced to socialize with the ex-gf.
    For us men its just common sense
    But for the original poster. Feel free to do whatever you want but the code applies to him. Most likely your mutual friend needs to speak with your ex. If he has a new girlfriend and says “offlimits” when asked he needs to state a legit reason why. If hes being an idiot he can be ignored.

  • AAklid

    The main reason for this rule is that most guys are, by nature, defensive, and don’t like appearing weak, as subconsiously, especially with younger males, how much respect and how well liked you are is directly proportional to how strong you are. This is a trait people share with animals. Being dumped by a girl makes you look VERY weak, however dumping a girl makes you look stronger, as it shows that you don’t care. Because of that, many men jump ship at the first sign of relationship trouble(real or imagined), even if they still like the girl. They may even date other girls, just to show they aren’t affected by the breakup. While stupid, ver stupid, it DOES happen, and more than you would think. That’s why this code exists, because if a guy dates a girl his friend, especially his best friend, still likes, it’s seen as a betrayal, and can destroy a friendship that’s lasted years. However there’s a difference between having dated a girl, or just hooked up with her. If you just hooked up with a girl, then all bet’s are off. To make sure this can’t be misunderstood, “dating” is when you see one person exclusively, and hang out in public pretty often.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AAklid

      Being dumped by a girl makes you look VERY weak, however dumping a girl makes you look stronger, as it shows that you don’t care. Because of that, many men jump ship at the first sign of relationship trouble(real or imagined), even if they still like the girl.

      This is a very interesting glimpse into the male mind, thanks. I have seen this happen many times, but hadn’t thought of it in exactly those terms, I always just figured that guys get less emotionally invested in general.

  • Doug

    I’m a guy and I think that if one of my friends dated an old girlfriend of mine that it would be really difficult to be friends with him again.

    Plus, do you realize that many men think there’s something gross about sleeping with the ex-girlfriend of your buddy? Most groups of men have a few slutty girls hanging around that have slept with every guy in the group. No man wants to get serious about these women. If you’ve slept with two guys in the group, you’re that slutty girl. It’s not so much what’s between men, it’s your reputation that suffers.

  • Anonymous

    Late reply to such an old article, but I wanted to add that I agree with AAklid. The vast majority of men are taught from childhood that it’s their job to be the strong one. We’re taught that women are attracted to confidence, and showing any sign of insecurity is a huge turn off. The “Bro Code” gives guys an out, without making them seem weak or insecure…it’s just the rule. Most guys understand there’s more going on than slavish adherence to a code of conduct…it’s a convenient way to get what we want, without having to explain our feelings to each other.

    Most guys will also break those same rules if they think the girl is worth the fallout.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous

      Most guys will also break those same rules if they think the girl is worth the fallout.

      Ah, that’s very interesting and explains a lot!

  • BDavis

    The Man Code isn’t so much about the girl. Its a sign of respect between the men that abide by it. It’s a hard and fast rule so that men don’t have unnecessary fights between the two. If you look at the story behind what happened between Barney and Ted after Barney hooked up with Robin, it took getting hit with an ambulance for the two guys to be friends again.
    As an aside, if the two of them are no longer dating why does “he [have] a moral obligation to wish the best for [her]?” Isn’t his moral fidelity to the relationships that he maintaining, in this case his bro?

  • Bob

    I want to chime in on the point that the “Man Code” is not about the woman.

    Think seriously before you risk goading someone who is 5’10″ and 180 lbs. into a killing rage.

  • Gerard

    Yes, the Man Code is about the fine line between friend and competition. As men have learned not to express their feelings, you really don’t know if the ex actually still loves her. He might have dumped her, but still love her, because he was afraid she’d dump him. This makes one potential explosive cocktail just below the surface, which if not negotiated correctly could lead to aggression, especially because it’s the only way men are taught to express.

  • Person

    Just came across the site… I find your view on the guy code intersting… As others here have already pointed out, it’s not about women. When deciding what’s best for us, as guys and as friends, we don’t need to consult you or have you approve. Your input, on any level, is irrelevant. It’s about us and what’s best for us and, quite frankly, women as group havr no idea what’s best for men as a group; maybe I’m wrong, but you seem to think you do.

    You strike me as a very intelligent woman, so I think it goes without saying that you understand that how guys interact and view and experience the world is different from the way women do. As such, how can you speak to somethings validity when you have absolutely no understanding of its origins? What makes you think that you somehow “know better” then us, and that the way you would handle a situation should apply to others? I’ve always been puzzled as to why women think they have some absolute understanding of what the “right” way to act and think is when it comes to emotions and social situations… Any such claim by any group is plain and simple arrogance… PEOPLE are different and unique; that applies to men as well. I’m sure there are many guys who despise the guy code just as much as you do, but the vast majority understand the code and know why it’s important. Stop being so ignorant. Just because you don’t agree with it because it doesn’t fit your world view doesn’t make it stupid… What works for us may not work for you and vice versa. That doesn’t mean our way, or yours, is better, it just means we’re different… Outside of the intolerance that this piece seems to inspire, the rest of the site looks insightful, good luck to you.

  • Person

    Then = than… My OCD compels me to make the correction!!!! :P

  • Heather

    Dear Person,

    The ONLY way for the bro code to be viable at all is in a place with a high population density. In a small town or at least in a small social circle you cannot avoid your friends ex’s and that would mean that NOBODY can get laid anymore, much less hope to find the love of your life. This whole bros before ho’s thing is arrested development. It reluctance to move into the ADULT male phase of your life where creating family becomes priority.

    If your friends ex is someone you could find a lifetime of love with why should his week of hurt feelings stand in the way of that. Isn’t it totally selfish of your BRO to block an essential piece of your actualization just because he’s still pouting. In this situation it’s even worse for the ex to block because he was the dumper! Choices have consequences and if it hurts him so much to see the gal he threw away, get with his buddy, he might have made the wrong choice. Live and learn. Don’t make others suffer YOUR mistakes.

    And guess what- just because we have a vagina does not mean we don’t have the right to hate the bro code. It affects US as much as you. For every dude being prevented love, sex, or both because of it, there is a woman equally prevented. Also, girls have some of the same stupid rules too. I’ve had friends who not only have the “you better not touch a man from my past” thing but have the “I saw him first” rule. I mean really! An old friend of mine was constantly suffering because nobody acknowledged a first sighting claim as fair play.

    This isn’t a guy gal thing. This is part of the larger question of what right does anybody have to make rules for others? I had a hookup 10 years ago who was a lot of fun and I actually liked him more deeply than he liked me meaning he eventually got bored and broke it off. Not long after that he got with a friend of mine. Guess what- it hurt! But MY hurt feelings do not justify an attempt to control other people. My job is to accept the reality of him not being into me and celebrate the notion that he could make my friend happy. My week of the blues is nothing compared in importance to their happy life together. If I had been immature and said “no way girl” she would have missed a real shot at love and that idea is quite a bit more unbearable than the jealousy I felt when they started dating.

    It’s a matter of maturity, fairness, and respect for the autonomy of others, and a commitment to be happy when others are. The bro code too often provides company for misery. Same with the gal code.

  • A man.

    Get ready, I’m not pulling any punches. Some articles are great, this one, well… let’s go.

    So, man here. What you don’t see is something women barely have any of: loyalty. Loyalty is a key component to honor, which (the majority of) men have, and honestly, women don’t. Look toward who is more willing to use the phrase “Death before dishonor”. Why this is, I don’t know for sure, but a good start would be to look at historical roles. I would guess that a few million years of being the sex which goes to war, where loyalty is the ONLY thing that matters, has programmed our brains to place honor (of which loyalty is a large component) as high on our “To Be List”. A life of relying on the trust of the man next to you in the trench will get that drilled into your brain.

    In my experience women are more willing to forgive cheating than a man. The subtext of this post demonstrates that women are less loyal. The entire article is justification for why your ability to get a man sexually interested in you in spite of his loyalty to his friend ie, you are more important to this new man than his old friend (your ex) is. When guy B hooks up with you, he tells your ex that you are more valuable, which signals a shift in the appraisal of the relationship

    Guy B is his friend, you are his girl
    to
    Guy B is his friend, you are guy B’s girl

    While the PC-ness of the last portion is debatable, the validity is not; so much so that there are magazines writing about it, as you mentioned. Then you discussed several points of the “Man Code.” You labeled it Bro Code to make it seem more juvenile and thus, easier to discount, a minor point but a crucial one. You claim Maxim magazine invented it, but since 1995 has managed to distill this into every single male on the planet. Similarly, it’s the difference between a bitch and an assertive woman. I’d like to discuss them and show you a man’s reflection on them

    “When questioned by a friend’s girlfriend, you need not and should not provide any information as to his whereabouts. You are even permitted to deny his very existence.”

    I can’t speak to the exact word choice, as I don’t know the source, or the medium through which it was stated, both of which make a huge influence on the validity. A man wants his girlfriend to know where he is, he will tell her. This doesn’t mean that every time you don’t know where he is, he is out chasing tail, BUT it means your knowledge is not a priority. If I am going somewhere and my friends know, but I have made the conscious decision to not tell her, there is a reason. That reason is why I trust my friends: they will not betray my trust in them to some girl that they know I date. As a girl who is dating a man, you are in no place to expect the man’s friends to shift their loyalty to you and divulge every piece of information you want.

    “The minimum amount of time you have to wait for another man is 5 minutes. The maximum is 6 minutes. For a girl, you are required to wait 10 minutes for every point of hotness she scores on the classic 1-10 scale.”

    This is very interesting, more on a gender trait being subconsciously revealed. This “fact” means that a man will wait for the President for 6 minutes, but Minka Kelly gets just under two hours. However untrue this is (I would never wait more than 15 minutes for a woman, and have routinely shot down woman for being late) it shows how willing a man is to supplicate to a woman. Why I think this is more interesting though, is because it shows that even though the ugliest women deserve more leniency than any man, even the most important. And you’re upset with that? How many multiples must a woman be put before a man until we all can pretend that we want equality?

    “Never allow a telephone conversation with a woman to go on longer than you are able to have sex with her. Keep a stopwatch nearby, and hang up if necessary.”

    Men communicate to transfer information. Women communicate for comfort. This is illustrated in the comical “How were you with him for 5 hours and never asked about his divorce?” Because that’s information that is not important to transfer. Neither’s life will be altered by the conveyance of that information and therefore, it is never discussed. The idea of an “awkward silence” only exists between two women or a man and a woman. When I am with another man, I don’t feel anything close to discomfort after 30 minutes of silence. Following in this logic: I have never once, outside of business, talked on the phone with a man for over three minutes. This does not mean we do not discuss very deep emotional problems, it’s that we always do it in person and as quickly and terse as possible. If you don’t believe this, and don’t want to eavesdrop on your man (as you shouldn’t), look into men talking to men on the phone in movies. Script writers understand this, and convey it fairly accurately. Following this initial structure, if no men talk on the phone for very long periods of time, but women do, then you are relegating yourself to the woman position. Men don’t like to be women.

    “It is the God-given duty of every man to assist any other man that may be in need of assistance in obtaining every guys’ dream (threesome with two girls).”

    I’ll ignore the obvious loyalty premise, as that horse is dead, trust me hahaha. Let’s dive deeper, patience though, it will take a minute. Women (consciously) like to think that when they flirt with a guy, in front of the guy they like, he will take notice and get jealous. This is patently untrue. If a girl I like i, then I think “Huh, thought she liked me. Turns out i was wrong.” If I’m slightly interested in her, same thought. If I’m not interested, it won’t even enter my consciousness. Why women think about this is because they know how much of a rise it gets out of them. I know, and she knows, that a girl flirting with me is a bigger deal for her than a guy flirting with her. This imbalance of power is why girls are more afraid a man wanting a threesome. He is looking to another woman to fulfill his sexual needs, which is a huge blow to her ego. Just a side note though: a threesome (without specifying gender) is a man with two women. A woman with two men is a train. You are getting a train ran on you.

    I’ll take the time to discuss a few quotes which I think warrant discussion.

    “I always felt robbed when it got complicated – I didn’t understand why guys had to mess up a good thing by wanting to get physical.”
    What is the difference between a pair of two best friends and a married couple. The best friends are loyal, take care of each other and put each other before the world. The married couple (what they add) has sex. That’s the difference. I know it will disagree with the emotions of every reader, but that’s the truth. The only thing a woman can do in a relationship that a man can’t is have sex with him. As contrary as this sounds, it is a practical truth.

    “It was easy, though to tell the truth it was always easier when they were also in relationships.”
    This is because their sexual needs were being met. When they see you as a non-sexual entity (because they are totally fulfilled by their wives) they treat you like a boy. (Not man, because they subconsciously know you don’t have the honor or loyalty to support that.

    “When people are in committed relationships, they usually choose not to act on the feelings of attraction that arise toward others.”
    They don’t feel attraction. That’s why they don’t act on it. If they are attracted to you more than their partners, they will cheat on them with you: male or female.

    “There is no vibe, because both parties are strictly observing boundaries around commitment and fidelity.”
    Put your husband in a room with Sofia Vergara and tell me that he doesn’t look at her sexually (with a straight face, if possible). It’s because he values you more than her. When that scale’s balance has tipped, he will too.

    “[You want to bang your girlfriend's ex] And you and he can never hang out and get close because of that ancient history? That’s just plain stupid”
    Interesting how “hang out” in that context doesn’t mean hang out, it means “have sex and hopefully have a long term relationship.” And ancient history (in your example it’s two years, really, ancient?)

    “She needs to grow up and move on.”
    Like move on to someone who hasn’t had sex with your friend? interesting how she has to move on, but you get to move in.

    “As far as I am concerned, there is never any reason for anyone who has been dumped to seek permission from the dumper for anything.”
    This is your thesis, so I’ll give it more attention. First, it states that you can cut a warpath through his friends, fucking them as you please (you say ‘hang out’ i say fuck, we both do the same thing at night.) If he terminates the relationship that means that you can and should put yourself above every friendship he has. I’ll let aside the “seek permission” because it’s obvious that you will never ask him his opinion. Because you know exactly what he would say.

    “[BF has broken up and moved on from you] and as such, has no right whatsoever to have an opinion on who you hang out or hook up with.”

    You are correct, he absolutely does not have any right on your life and the choices you make. But he does have total control over who he trusts. When you want to have sex with his friends, you are telling him that you would rather get some dick than understand a man’s loyalty to his fellow man.

    “In fact, I would argue that he has a moral obligation to wish the best for you, and if that means seeing you with his good friend, so be it”

    His responsibility is to get you with the most attractive man? Interesting, where does this come up? I mean in the “I dated her for 3 weeks” handbook.

    “I just don’t see who gets hurt in that situation. Except his pride, and who gives a shit about that?”

    Him. And this here is exactly what I was talking about before. Women don’t understand honor or loyalty which is why this means nothing to you. Your verbatim statement of “Who gives a shit” supports me more than I could say myself. Who gets hurt? Well, he does. And do support your whole ‘Who gives a shit” attitude: “In other words, go for it.”
    That’s why most women are very unsatisfied with their marriage choice. But nobody gets divorced and most people never regret their marriage.

  • Chris

    Great points, couldn’t have said it better myself. Very well put. Women have no right to mess with the Man code. There are sooo many reasons you don’t date your friends ex. Just b/c the relationship goes sour doesn’t give women the right to try and mess up the guys life. Women may have more friends guys value friendship more than woman do. Unless you think you are going to marry the girl it’s just not worth it. I almost think women will try to mess up the guys life on purpose just because it didn’t work out. There are plenty of people to date you don’t have to go after his friends.

  • http://earlster@aol.com INSIGHT, HOW MEN THINK

    I would guess if you ask 100 people (men and women) if men benefit from marriage more than women, most would still say “yes” including many divorced men who are still denying their own experience or are in desperate need for female approval.

    Men live shorter lives because society (men and women) don’t care about men. It’s just that simple.

    Society is able to destroy men more easily because they are seen as expendable for the “greater good” of women. Doesn’t matter if it’s war or divorce. Many would add children to that “greater good” but the laws specifically favor women at the expense of both men and children because society “knows” women love their children even more than themselves. False in most cases from what I have seen but that’s what most people believe.

    We have a long way to go to get the truth out there for all men but especially for young men who lack the experience to know the truth.

    I can identify with the stories that have been related here.

    Lying, cheating, violence, and scheming to get ahead are normal for divorcing women.

    When I was getting divorced, my soon to be ex drafted a legal document accusing me of planning to murder her. She also accused me of having an affair with a perfectly innocent woman and named that woman in a sworn legal document.

    Neither was true of course. I was never with another woman during our long marriage. There was no physical violence in our marriage either. It was all about the selfishness of putting oneself first and getting the assets no matter how it was done.

    Or maybe it was just a case of projection as my lawyer suggested.

    I did have a problem with her stalking me but the court turned a deaf ear to it.

    She changed over the years from a decent woman to a person of low character who was engulfed by her own selfishness.

  • gaoxiaen

    My (now married) brother and I had an agreement when we were younger. We are only one year apart, so often when we split up with a girlfriend, they would try to get “revenge” by going after the other brother. We agreed that that would cause no problems between us. We would just enjoy and use her.

  • MARY

    “We would just enjoy and use her.”

    Sounds like you and your bro were the ones being “used”, Bro.

  • Walt

    The Bro Code exista because jealosy between males can escalate to volence very quickly, something which society frowns upon.