Why Nice Guys Ignore the Girls They Like
I found this bit of humor at Buzzfeed, but I suspect know that many guys would call it 100% accurate. We call them jerks and douchebags, but we go for them anyway, don’t we? If we didn’t they’d be forced to stop acting so nasty to get laid. Do we force nice guys into last place?
I hear from a fair number of young men who are just as frustrated as many of you are in the search to find meaningful relationships. One reader here commented that when he got to college and acted like the nice guy he really is, he got nowhere. Not until he assumed the identity of Selfish Prick did he start scoring with the ladies. So this post is dedicated to Douche Baguettes everywhere. You’re guilty because you keep sending the message to men that they need to be cruel and uncaring in order to get anywhere with you. You know who you are, and I want you to tell me why you do it. Let me say up front that many lovely women get blindsided by a bad boy once. Maybe twice. After that, you have a lot to answer for.
The British have a saying: ”Be mean, keep ‘em keen.” Why are we shooting ourselves in the foot time and again?
Here are the most common explanations for why women fall for guys who treat them poorly:
Jerks have many qualities that are attractive to women.
- There’s the mystery surrounding a troubled soul or an enigmatic rebel.
- They exude confidence, though upon closer inspection it is really arrogance.
- They are extraverts.
- They have a lot of charm, i.e. player skills.
- They appear passionate. Usually, they are most passionate about fulfilling their own needs.
- Their intense pursuit is flattering and makes women feel special and desirable.
It’s a challenge.
- Women feel that any love worth having should be earned first.
- They enjoy outplaying a guy (or trying to) at his own game.
- Jerks keep us guessing; we can’t decipher them.
- On the flip side, nice guys are boring and predictable.
Women have a “fixer-upper” complex.
- They look into a guy’s soul and see more than he is showing of himself, and they become hooked on the idea of getting him to open up.
- A flawed man gives this type of woman someone to work on and mold. They wind up viewing the jerk as someone who is misunderstood and unloved, a lurking lonely soul.
It’s emotional.
- Women feel excited, disappointed, and confused. The rush of emotions is exciting and addictive.
- The process inevitably follows this pattern:
1. Jerk shows interest.
2. When woman returns interest, jerk draws back and appears nonchalant.
3. Jerk waits until woman is confused, then provides attention.
4. Repeat.
Weak women attract jerks.
- A jerk will not waste his time on a woman he knows respects herself. He preys on the vulnerable.
- It requires two parties with low self-esteem. The jerk uses a bad boy demeanor as his cover. His snide remarks and sarcasm are defense mechanisms.
Selfish women choose jerks.
- They are just as shallow, prioritizing pursuit and excitement over a real connection.
Women subconsciously replicate their childhoods.
- If a key male figure in your life was a jerk, you’ll seek out jerks for relationships as an adult.
Dating a jerk is the best way to avoid getting into a long-term relationship.
- Until you are ready to settle down with a sweet guy to have babies with, why not have fun with a jerk? Maybe even be a jerk?
It’s a vicious cycle.
- Women are attracted to jerks, form relationships with them, and then try to justify their choice by seeing things in them that no one else can.
Do these reasons ring true, or is there something else going on? Carole Lieberman, MD, coauthor of Bad Boys: Why We Love Them, How to Live with Them, and When to Leave Them says:
“They can be unpredictable, dishonest, or downright mean, but scoundrels have always had an undeniable appeal to us–an erotic edge of danger that’s hard to resist.”
As long as women choose jerks, there will be nice guys converting to jerkdom, especially if they’ve been dumped for a jerk. Nice guys who admit to employing this strategy don’t like it much; they say it’s exhausting to act like a jerk all the time. Let’s give the nice guys a break. Look deeper. Don’t settle. Respect yourself. All of womankind will thank you for it.
Have you ever dated a jerk? How’d that go? Are you cured?
Related posts:
I like my jerks just fine thank you! I am pretty sure that I subconsciously pick jerks no matter how consciously I try to pick nice guys. So right now I am picking nothing. I am just letting those berries ripen in their own bush.
Also, when I try to think of a nice guy, I have a hard time really thinking of one. There was one guy I dated who was very nice and very sweet and very good in bed. He was perfect. He is getting married next month to a very cute girl-next-door type. Anyways. He was nice and he also was a little spoiled and a little boring. He didn't get me.
I am a little bit of a bad girl so I think that the bad guys get me more. I feel like we have more in common. What I need to find is a bad guy who is responsible. An ex bad guy. A grown up Johnny Depp.
“In the law-of-attraction kind of way, I am attracted to sane stable people who are a little bit unusual. In the sexual attraction kind of way, I am attracted to idiots and psychos.”
Singlutionary
Haha! Your wit and wisdom follow you! I think Johnny Depp is the personification of sane, stable, unusual. That seems like a good way to go. But why does nice always = boring? Can't a guy be nice and witty? Nice and spontaneous? I just don't get why that is always a null set! (Uh oh, I think the null set concept might be from the New Math of the 1960s. Ouch.) Nice and good in bed, though–sounds like a keeper, though maybe not a match.
Here's the thing. Those nice, 'boring people'? They do find each other. Even the really smart ones. And they do eventually marry. Some sooner than later. This leaves the dating pool evidently filled with 'players', who, well like to 'play'. Sometimes that takes time to work out for both sexes. But naturally the time frame for the women is a bit foreshortened if they desire to have kids. If so the smarter & realistic among them actually figure out all this 'stuff' fast. They have few problems discerning the 'real/decent' prospects from the rest of the players poseurs. And it's really not that difficult to do, mostly. Grandma & great Grandma might have been able to do it w/o any degrees, graduate or otherwise, and dealing with much smaller effective population sizes, (due to natural transportation limitations).
But everyone is mystified about why it takes 'so long' for the educated 'middling' classes to meet, mate & marry. Again it's a Revolution of Rising Expectations. There's always got to be a better looking, sexier, wealthier prospect coming down the pike, and I might miss him/her if I'm otherwise engaged. And now that I'm highly educated I think I deserve better than what momma had, and I know better than her what I really want in a mate.
Still, strangely enough, if we're just talking Biology here and mating strategies, (as in the production of offspring), there are plenty of 'alternative' strategies being played out in any population. Look to the Demographics. Why so many teen pregnancies & births, (especially among certain populations)? Someone has made a very careful & perhaps even cunning calculation that their desirability as a successful romantic partner is peaking at their peak/prime fertility years, right @ HS age. Now that may sound silly and quite precarious to most of us in the middling classes, but it nevertheless may be the truth given the dismal marriage prospects in many communities. They may eventually marry, but perhaps only when grannies themselves. Ditto for the rising rates of single moms by choice later on in their 30's & 40's.
The rest of what you describe here sounds wholly plausible, but of course applies mostly to our select population of perhaps college educated, middle class kids. Or for those in college. That's a pretty select population too. Granted it's getting larger all the time and is well reflected in the media, but this is not the only way people interact. The nice folks? They too eventually figure the game out, and are married off early if they've got any decent game at all. The rest? They provide nice fodder for those 'rebound' relationships whereby you can pick up a 2nd wife/hubby that makes the 1st ones look like the ogres they may have been.
Me? I never had any idea of what the games were or how they were played. Neither did the wife. She mostly did not stand for it. So it was pretty straight forward for us, I recognize it's gotten a bit more difficult for many reasons, but there's still folks getting together everyday using pretty simple rules that any dog trainer might be able to impart. No, Really. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
I was addicted to bad boy jerks for most of my dating life. Interestingly, I do have male abuse issues from my childhood. I finally got weary of it and realized I deserve better. I found a good guy with a twist. He is stable, caring and dependable, but he is also creative (computer nerd and my web designer), plays in a band, his intellect is off the charts, he's funny and good in bed. His Mama taught him how to treat a woman and he learned the lessons well. I realize I'm lucky but had to be open to giving him a chance and being open to be treated respectfully.
Precisely. Eventually all (OK Most) of the 'bad boy addicts' grow up (hey the 40's are rough on everyone!), and they begin to learn to choose better and more wisely. It's not exactly rocket science. The 'good guys'? They're all around you. Most of the time they're pretty patient & understanding too. Just a bit under appreciated & perhaps under utilized. Your loss (of bad boy attentions) is their gain & it's a 'win 'win' for everyone. Case solved! But yes, plenty of it comes from unresolved issues from childhood too. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
Oh, Peach Tart, I really appreciate your openness and honesty! For the record, I think Mr. Peach Tart sounds like the WHOLE PACKAGE–funny, good in bed, smart, caring, dependable, stable, creative, musical. Wow. Congrats on winning the mating lottery!
A fine example of 'mass marketing' for the big date & Yes the entire community is involved in the project:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/photogalleries/polarprom...
Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
I think there is a lot to the emotional issue, as well as the point that women often feel that real love can only be earned. It does seem anthropological – females drive to vie for the alpha male… I think that's why maturity can help – we start using our heart and mind and not just our instincts. Great discussion!
Margo, thanks so much for coming by and leaving a comment! I agree that it is instinctive in many ways – the alpha male would seem to have the most survival skills. Also I think it is just part of human nature that we enjoy a challenge. I think I am particularly prone to “fixer-upper complex.” I find it addictive when a normally closed down man shows his emotional side or vulnerability.
I think you're also right about maturity. That goes for the guys too – I think there are many who act like jerks when they are young and wanting to impress their buddies with their conquests, who will eventually mature and grow out of that behavior. The ones that remain bad boys forever are truly toxic!
Still wasting time, this time from Health care things. More Flying Squads on more urgent things.
Be that as it may. Your sources? Probably need some beefing up too. Start with Prof. Stephanie Coontz: & her really informative book on the History of Marriage & LTR's:
“Marriage, A History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage” 2005, based on her 30 some years of research, teaching & wring on the topic.
http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/books/marriage/
She's also got plenty of valuable articles here:
http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/articles/
Here's some other professional sources on research into Marriage & marriage formation:
http://ncmr.bgsu.edu/links.html
And here from Rutgers' their famously long lived Marriage Project:
http://marriage.rutgers.edu/
Some of this research is yes, more from a 'conservative bent & perspective' so everyone needs to use it critically. But the numbers, facts, trends and demographics are there to spark debate. It's up to everyone to try and help interpret what's actually going on out there in the 'wild'.
But other than 'fun', mostly while younger, 'hooking up' is hopefully, ideally leading 'someplace'. Eventually both parties will agree on that, mostly. There are a few exceptions, but this smaller group of the 'never marrieds' (~20%) are expanding. True, some folks will never marry, but they remain in the minority, and are yes, mostly considered 'unfortunate' unless fairly wealthy and independently successful in other venues. Very, very few will never have been in a 'significant' or valuable 'LTR' or touched by similar experiences that can not be classed as more than merely 'hooking up' .
So I realize your aims here, but just strongly offering ideas about battling the 'fun hookup culture' really has to be about a larger frame here too. We just can't keep screaming that 'ice cream (sex, even casual) is Bad for you!' It's also about goals and aims and about future direction, which is very hard to inculcate into any 20 something's mindset. And those that 'get it'? They typically don't need much advice except for the introductions part perhaps. But maybe that's wishful thinking too. But plenty of this has some serious economic history & demographic implications too, naturally. Not to worry or obsess over, but to recognize that life changes for everyone, especially our children & other newer generations.
I think mostly many of these past changes have been demonstrably positive for most women, economically, socially, physically & even emotionally. There's more variety, more & better choices about more things, and more opportunity in almost every respect than there was even 25 years ago for most American women. Prof Coontz would agree with that premise too. The devil is how to cope with all the massive changes that are coming so quickly. And it's a wilderness of unknowns out there, and naturally our children are left to navigate it as best they can. Often without much good or sensible advice. The 'new abstinence' movement is really not the answer for most, as even most very religious people will have had premarital sex (90%+). Hooking up smarter is a good start, but behavioral economics tells us that even very well informed people can do some foolish things. And that's just with money & investments. When it comes to the monumental and elemental pull of sex and that cute dreamy B/G? I really do fear that many of us are doomed to repeat some very poor choices, and only regret them much later & slowly at our leisure. Naturally we have a word for those people. They're Retired! (But even that does not stop some of them from renewing their afflictions & unwise affections!)
Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
I'm one of those nice guys, unfortunately.
Having been brought up in a single parent household by my feminist mother, I learned
very early on the importance of respecting women. I'm smart, funny, caring and have a
lot of other 'nice' qualities women CLAIM to be looking for in a man, when asked.
Let's just say being nice hasn't proved to be that effective, which is becoming painfully
clear to me. My last girlfriend left me after three months to go back to the jerk
ex-boyfriend who had severely mistreated her for seven years.
I really hate having to change the way I behave to be more successful romantically,
but as an experiment I'm going to try some of the proven pickup artist techniques.. putting girls down to spark attraction, seeing multiple girls at once, ignoring her, being
cocky/funny etc.
Whether I'll convert to complete jerkdom remains to be seen – I'm hoping less will do
Oy, I hate to lose another guy to the Douchebag team. I understand it, though. That's why I do call women out on their choices. I really hate the PUA stuff, though. OK, maybe that will get you laid, but if you ever want something real with a girl, you're going to find that you've wound up with a girl who has low self-esteem, and you're not going to be able to respect her.
I'm gonna trust, though, that ultimately you will be your sweet self, the boy your wonderful mama raised, and you will find someone who wants every bit of your natural niceness!
Thanks for commenting, women really need to hear this from guys.
I don't like PUA techniques either and I really don't want to become one of those shallow PUA-people – some of whom become really messed up from playing The Game.
I guess I'm just really tired of trying to be my honest, nice self to little avail while seeing these guys hook up with lots of girls using their deceptive ways while basically treating them like dirt.
I'll give it all some thought before doing anything drastic. The more I think about it, the more I don't want to go down that road. It might sound strange coming from a guy, but I would much prefer a serious relationship to 'meaningless' sex.
Maybe I'm just feeling particularly bitter and frustrated after my girlfriend left. The last thing she told me before going back to her abusive ex was literally “I really don't want to lose you as a friend – you're just so incredibly sweet!”. To think I actually considered it..
Ugh, I can't believe she used that line. That's selfish. She should want what is best for you, not to have you hanging around feeling badly.
Hey, listen, I know several hundred women who would probably love to know you! Maybe I should start an online dating site for young people…
I really appreciate the sentiment, but unless one of them is living in Denmark, it's going to be a very very long distance relationship
But happy to know some women out there are actually looking for nice guys. Gives me hope that things might not look so bleak, after all..
Yes, many women really are looking for a great guy. You need to make sure you're not going for the douche baguettes, though. Keep looking for a nice girl.
Oh, btw, if you're Danish, your English is incredible. Or maybe you're a native English speaker living there – lucky you.
Good to hear – I'll keep up the search!
I'm Danish, so thanks for the compliment! One of the benefits of living in a country with only 5 million inhabitants is having to learn a second and third language, I suppose
[...] think this blog post sums it up quite nicely. Personally, I hate the dating games and rules, but a lot of my friends [...]
I must confess. I struggle between being good and bad. I'm conflicted. I have no trouble being either one, but its scary. Sometimes I wonder if its a mental health issue. But the relationships I've have lead me to believe that you have to treat women unfortunately like they don't exist, because they are always using their beauty to try to manipulate men. Having falling victim to this several times-I refuse to repeat the same mistake, but in the twist in my character has become “I don't give a %*C&” I you like me it's fine I you don't like me its also fine. The thing is no I have trouble approaching woman and so I try to make them approach me by giving them space and ignoring them. Once I am able to bridge the gap I let some of the natural course take its place. But the truth is woman as well as men have helped to create this current mess.
vincentd, thanks very much for leaving a comment. Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, I think women have to bear the brunt of the blame on this. If ignoring women wasn't effective for guys, they would stop doing it. Women need to learn to value the nice guy. As they mature I think most women do that — they want a good man as a lifelong partner and father to their children. But especially when they're young, they fall for the players, get played, and keep repeating the cycle. It puts the nice guys in a real bind, as you have experienced for yourself. My advice to both women and men is to keep looking for a person who you can really be your true self with.
Chalk one more to the “nice guy gone selfish prick” type.
Also, I've been told “we go for bad boys when we are young, but we want nice guys to marry and have children” by girl friends who thought they were consoling me after the last disappointment. Jesus Christ, can't they tell how off-putting, calculating, mental and selfish it sounds? Stop saying that to anyone with a penis and a bit of pride!
Ignoring girls for most of the time has become normal after the last blows. I never understood how someone could turn into a jerk like this, but now it's clear it's mostly a natural reaction. You just become extremely cynical.
Figaro, thanks so much for leaving a comment. What a waste! Another good guy gone over to the dark side! Seriously, I don't blame you for being totally offended when girls tell you to wait around, your turn as the nice guy will come when they're done sowing their wild oats. Talk about sloppy seconds. I agree that many people are cynical in relationships, both women and men. It makes me wonder how to get the nice guys together with the nice girls. Not all women want a bad boy, and not all guys are players. We need to figure out a way to get the bad boys matched up to the women who want them.
When a woman tell me like what I was told at the gym today “I'm coming back”; I just chuckle to myself smile and walk away. So for all the men and women who have come across similar words just walk away. If he or she like you they'll catch up with you at another time. Don't be petty about bringing it up again when they approach you. Or you can wait there like a wall flower;)
Just a quick update. I must admit, I'm getting exceedingly frustrated
I've been dating a lot of girls since I last commented, aiming at finding a nice girl for a long term relationship – at it always seems to turn out the same. A good example of how it usually goes is my last experience: These past few weeks, I've been dating a girl who seemed VERY interested in me. On our third date (which she suggested) we had a great evening together having dinner at my place and ended up having sex. At the end of the night, she said: “We DEFINITELY need to do this again” and we kissed before she left for home.
The next day, I called her and she didn't answer the phone. Texted her the next day, which she didn't reply to. Then she finally called me and told me she thought things were moving way too fast (which she hadn't given any signs of or mentioned before) and she needed time to think. Four days later, she sent me the following text while I was at work:
“Hi. I'm sorry to say that I don't think we should see each other again. The dates have been great and I think you're really good company, but unfortunately I don't have any butterflies in my stomach. Good luck in your future search. Hugs”
To be honest, it has been an eye opener for me. I'm not going to resort to PUA-tactics, but the next time I date a girl, I'm going to wait 3-4 days before calling her after dates – even if we slept together.
Hey, vincentd, welcome back! I think your approach is 100% right on. “I'm coming back?” Like you are supposed to stand around waiting on her? Why is it such a power struggle? Why can't we just get to know each other? How about letting someone know outright that you are interested, and they can respond? No games. Seriously, I'm wondering if anyone falls in love anymore.
a;lkdjfa;lkdfja;lksdfja;lkdjf;alksdfj Gaaaah, how frustrating! I can imagine how fed up you are! OK, first of all, there is NOTHING wrong with the way you behaved. Most women desperately want to hear from the guy the day after sex. This is all her, not you. Let me just give you some quick impressions:
1. She was all about it. And then she did a 180. I don't think this has to do with your being a great guy, I think this has to do with her own issues around intimacy.
2. You get 1,000,000 bonus points for making dinner for her at your place. You are such a keeper, many women would die for that.
3. You had sex, sounds like she was totally into it. Left pushing for another round. Something happened in her head right after that, like a switch got flipped. There is absolutely no way this could be your fault. It is possible that she didn't feel sexually compatible — it happens, but then I don't know why she would have said she DEF wanted to do it again. That's strange.
4. She was rude. Not answering, not replying to a text. Her call saying things were moving too fast is probably the most honest feedback you got from her. Clearly, the sex freaked her out. But that final text? What crap! Ugh, no butterflies? Good luck in your future search? Hugs? She gets 1,000,000 demerits for texting that. Both her method and her content suck!
OK, I'll stop ranting. Seriously, it sounds like she is not ready or emotionally available. I don't know her history, but she sent you VERY mixed signals. Please do not allow this to color the way you treat women in the future. Be choosy about the women you sleep with — make sure the two of you are on the same page first. I feel crazy giving this advice to a guy, but you say you want a real relationship. And don't stop calling the next day – don't stop being a sweet guy. There are sweet women out there, you just have to be patient and keep trying.
Such a waste. You are frustrated, but you are neither average nor a chump. And the whole Danish thing – American women would love that!
Very frustrating indeed. Maybe I'm just really unlucky with the girls I meet. I still have hopes for meeting someone who's more emotionally mature and who doesn't enjoy these games.. you'd think women in their early 30's were past this stuff.
I had a good feeling about her potential as a girlfriend and we both wanted to sleep with each other that night – so I didn't think twice about it. When she called me to say things had been moving too fast, she mentioned that I shouldn't attribute any meaning to us having sex, since she was able to separate her feelings 100% from having sex with someone.. ouch.
You're right about her being rude in her reactions and the more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to see that she wasn't a woman for me. I really want to believe that showing interest, being courteous and calling the next day can work out. I've just had quite a few experiences that tell me showing interest kills the attraction for the woman.
Thanks for your kind words and impressions! I'll keep trying and if everything fails, maybe I'll move to the US
When I finally succeed in finding a sweet woman, I'll be sure to let you know. For now, I'm going to try to relax, have fun and date a woman I wrote some time back on a dating site, who wrote me yesterday wanting to get back in touch (long story) – how's that for good timing?
I have one thought I'd like to share with you. I do wonder about the women that you pursue/are attracted to. I have to assume that the vast majority of single women in their early 30s are seeking a relationship. You clearly have no trouble attracting women, so it's not you. And if you're meeting people online, then it should be possible to see who is explicitly stating they are looking for a serious relationship (profiles are not always accurate, I know). It just sounds to me that you've had more than your fair share of women who are playing games or don't know what they want.
I think you should consider what kind of woman you want, and then look for her in the places that kind of person might spend time. (I wrote a post on this, How to Find a Great Guy, change the gender obvs, but the principle is the same.) A mature woman with her act together is not turned off by a guy showing interest. A college girl? Yes, perhaps. But a woman whose clock is running? No. I know there are many women who would be thrilled to find a man like you. You just have to figure out how to identify them.
Well, I actually met 'texting girl' on a dating site, where she was listed as looking for a boyfriend, after she added me to her list of favourites. I'm not really interested in a casual relationship, so I tend to avoid those profiles. Most of the women I've dated during the last six months have been ones from dating sites, mainly because it seems like a good way to find someone with similar interests and values – who's looking for a serious relationship.
Thanks for the heads up about the article. I'm also trying to find a girlfriend IRL and have met a lot of great new friends, mainly through various workout activities, like mountainbiking and the gym.. but no real candidates yet.. I'll keep looking, though
I suppose each and everyone of us has to work on ways to increase our value. Too much circulation makes the price go down, but admittedly when I fancy a woman greatly I try to get her to invest, because I can't come on the cheap: it's not like when we were 21 and everything was a novel experience. Now it's about quality so I don't mind tightening my game a bit, especially with a 40 year old muse.
Well, it sounds like you're a realist, and that's a good thing. Also, you're right in line with my own ideas about the supply and demand of sex, so I approve! Also, it's good that you are tightening your game, you will get a better quality woman that way.
With all respect you can not gain the respect of anyone, much less a woman if you are acting like an AVERAGEFRUSTRATEDCHUMP. So for starters, and you really seem like a cool dude; change your name to a more positive one like “the man” that way you will begin after a few weeks or months to assume a new you. Trust me this works. Go to the gym bomb your back, walk straight shoulders relaxed, don't talk to anyone and watch and see how women and men will be drawn to you like a magnet described in Oscar Wilds steel filing fable. Trust me I have been through the worst any man can ever go through with a woman. Re-invent yourself. Vincent The less you say the better.
The name was just based on my first post since it's PUA-lingo for non-PUAs. I kept it throughout to
But thanks for the tips. I already do three strength training sessions a week as well as loads of cardio – mountainbiking, cycling, spin classes and rowing. But I agree on the importance of training.. it increases self-confidence and overall mood.
As for not talking to anyone, I've struggled somewhat with social anxiety in the past and have pretty much gotten rid of it by pushing through the fear – meeting new people and talking to lots of people in general.
I am reinventing myself, though. These past six months after my girlfriend broke up with me have actually been very benificial. My self-esteem is now pretty solid and I'm doing thing I wouldn't have dreamed of earlier.
Add to the first paragraph: .. it thoughout to keep the same name in the thread.
I have a daughter with budding asshole-itis that I am trying to nip in the bud. I have learned that I have to keep the comments very simple and continue to drive them home.
1) Men are not women. They do not think like women. remember that. They think like me.
2) If a man is interested in you, he will show it
3) You should like a boy because you like him, not because your friends like him, or because he's the flavor of the day.
4) Men do not like women who sleep around a lot.
5) Nothing will ever change the behavior of men dividing women into two groups; the ones they will sleep with and the ones they will marry
6) Unless you have a really pretty face and world-class boobs, every pound you put on removes one percent of the guys you know from your potential dating pool.
Dad, thanks so much for leaving a comment! It is awesome that you are taking the time to try to teach your daughter about the realities of relationships. I think so few men feel comfortable broaching this topic with their daughters, but you carry enormous influence with her as someone who understands how men really think. I have learned a great deal just from the comments left by men here! Principles 1-5 don't surprise me at all – there is a great deal of anecdotal and funded research that comes to the same conclusions. #6 is harsh, though! I guess the question is, what do guys consider the ideal weight? Many women strive to attain a thinness that is more boyish than womanly. I've always thought men like a woman with some curves, provided that she is fit. I do see that a lot, though. Men talk a lot about women who ruin their looks by putting on weight. In any case, if you send your daughter here to HUS, I promise she'll get a lot of info. that will back up what you are trying to teach her
I don't think there is an objective ideal when it comes to weight for guys – although a girl being directly overweight will put a lot of men off. But then again, one of my friends is married to a very sweet girl who's obese and who has become one of my close friends. There might be some slight cultural differences, however, since I live in Denmark where the average BMI is lower than in the US.
Personally, I much prefer women with curves and don't find skinny girl attractive. The 'supermodel look' is just about the most unattractive look a woman can have, in my opinion.
Ah, so glad to hear it! I've read that evolution has provided for men to prefer an hourglass figure, as it demonstrates fertility. However, cultural norms that indicate status trump that natural inclination. That means that if rail-thin women, e.g. supermodels, enjoy the designation of ideal female beauty, as they do in our time, that will take precedence over an instinctive preference for curves. So how do we go about changing the fashion???
One interesting note: overweight is unattractive to everyone. I'm in Italy right now. The other night we went to dinner at a very nice restaurant. There was a couple waiting for a table – she was blonde, speaking very halting Italian. The guy was Italian, working very hard to charm her and make himself understood. His face was gorgeous, chiseled features, light eyes, lush black hair and lashes. She was attractive, but not nearly as much as he was. As they were led to their table, I noticed that he was carrying a large spare tire around the middle! It completely changed my view of him. Suddenly, I was thinking, this poor woman, I wonder how early tonight she can get rid of this guy? So, that's a prejudice I think we all share.
I don't think extremely thin models are attractive to most men. They way I see it, the fashion industry and it's ideals are dictated by women. An obvious place to look for what's attractive to most men today is the porn industry.. you won't find many rail-thin women there
I do agree that overweight as such is unattractive to most people, although it's a very unfortunate prejudice. I'm in great shape today, but I used to be overweight and felt that I would never be able to find a partner. I know that the wife of my friend thought she could never get a boyfriend – at least not someone who wasn't overweight himself.. luckily that wasn't true.
As far as attractive features are concerned, I read an interesting article recently. Since women have started taking “the pill” to avoid pregnancy, their preference for men have changed significantly.
Before the pill, women used to be most attracted to men with very masculine features like big muscles, chiseled facial features or a prominent jaw – Burt Lancaster, for instance.
Now after many years, supposedly the hormonal changes means women today are more attracted to men with boyish looks, like Michael J. Fox. That might also explain the fascination with 'metrosexual' men like David Beckham
You've touched on something I've been researching! The long-term effect of the Pill on sexual selection. Because the Pill changes women's pheromones, they're sending out different signals than they would naturally, and presumably attracting different men. Your point about how it's changing women's preferences is fascinating. More estrogen = wanting a baby face? Can't wait to write that post!
It really is a pretty interesting subject area.
I read a popular scientific journal a while ago about a related finding. Apparently women are more attracted to physically masculine men with specific personality traits just before they ovulate. They are narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sub-clinical psychopathy, also known as the “Dark Triad” – basically the traits of a “Bad boy”.
The Pill negates this effect and leads to a sort of “unnatural selection”, if you will. This has also lead to lower rates of babies being born where the supposed father isn't really the father, since women are less likely to risk their relationship by sleeping with a “Bad boy” if they are on the Pill.
If I remember correctly, about 12% of babies have been conceived with another man than the one in the relationship. Supposedly, that number was somewhat higher in the past.
Yes, I've read that number is 20%, which strikes me as very high. For that matter, 12% seems high. That's a whole lot of cuckolding. Relationship science is a fascinating area – if you come across anything really interesting, please send me the link! Thx.
[...] http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/06/11/hookinguprealities/why-nice-guys-ignore-the-girls-they-like... [...]
I think for a nice guy you can't find a woman you can be your true self with before being a fake asshole to a bunch of women. Even if you find a girl that likes you as a nice guy, she still won't be thrilled to be with such an inexperienced nice guy who doesn't know how to turn women on. And as a nice guy, you just can't get any experience without being an asshole.
Yeah, when girls say that, it just sounds like girls are using nice guys to provide the lifestyle they want after they tire of playing with badboys. Sorry if I'm less than enthused to fill that role.
There's a big numeric discrepency there. It's true that not all girls want players but 80% of them do. The remainder marry pretty early since they have a huge selection of nice guys to choose from when they are young. As guys get older, more and more nice guys turn to the darkside. If anything, that's one of the big driving forces that determines when a woman needs to settle down. She has to do it before there are too many nice guys taken out of the pool.
I don't understand how the don't talk to anyone thing can work. I've been antisocial for many years in the past and nothing ever happened. How the heck does it work?
I don't know what you're talking about regarding David Beckham. He's very masculine looking with a square jaw. Not super square but still square.
I've read that's it's only 4% which was dertermined by doctors who accidentally discovered false paternity when looking for various organ and blood donors within the family.
Amen to that. You are 100% right. The thing is, women may be attracted to players, but we are not ruled by our libidos. We can also be disgusted by the behavior of a player once we see through it. Women need to make decisions with experience and reason rather than just sexual attraction. It helps a lot if the nice guys are developing themselves so that they can behave with confidence. It doesn't really take much more than that.
Amen to that. You are 100% right. The thing is, women may be attracted to players, but we are not ruled by our libidos. We can also be disgusted by the behavior of a player once we see through it. Women need to make decisions with experience and reason rather than just sexual attraction. It helps a lot if the nice guys are developing themselves so that they can behave with confidence. It doesn't really take much more than that.
I really agree with this entire post!
# They exude confidence, though upon closer inspection it is really arrogance.
Yeah…confidence is a good thing. Tons of guys think they are “hot shit” though, which is arrogance. They think they are better than you.
# They appear passionate. Usually, they are most passionate about fulfilling their own needs.
Yes! Their own need is sex. Bad boys will do anything for sex.
# Their intense pursuit is flattering and makes women feel special and desirable.
Yes, I love when I'm getting attention from a cute guy. I feel special, especially when I'm bored going homework and I get a nice/funny/cute/witty text from a cute guy.
* They enjoy outplaying a guy (or trying to) at his own game.
Ugh I try to do this so often. I once called a guy out and told him he was a player and I could play better. We proceeded to ask everyone who had more “game” and it came 50/50. ugh I was drunk at the time, but honestly, I want to feel like I can outplay them, and “win” their dumb game.
* Jerks keep us guessing; we can’t decipher them.
Yes, we never know if they're gonna text us today, or later in the week. I like trying to “figure them out”…a statement I realized I use a lot.
* On the flip side, nice guys are boring and predictable.
Yes, nice guys sometimes don't know how to carry on a conversation with a girl. Sometime they'll ask too many questions about ourselves and not flirt well, or tease us. It's just a straightforward conversation you can have with like, a teacher, and that can be boring.
1. Jerk shows interest.
2. When woman returns interest, jerk draws back and appears nonchalant.
3. Jerk waits until woman is confused, then provides attention.
4. Repeat.
OMG this is amazingly true to me and my friends. Yes, they want your number and show interest. But then when they text you and they realize you like them back, they draw back and you don't hear from them for a little. Then they'll come back, show attention again, and then ultimately drop you if they believe you want a relationship and want things to get more serious.
Yes, and guys probably can see I'm insecure and if I do believe the things they say that are lies, they get away with it, and try to see how far they can get with me. But that was the old me…I've learned so much from my experiences this year and next time a bad boy shows interest, he'll have to PROVE himself. I am attracted to looks first, so if a good looking guy shows interest, and I believe he's nice, I'll want to talk to him and get to know him. I just have to keep meeting new people…eventually one will be normal and will want to get to know me for me…I hope
Just a quick update from me. I've been busy dating and found a girlfriend – an intelligent and funloving 33-year old (I'm 32). We were together for two months before she broke up with me. The reason: I was “too nice” and she “needed someone who could put her in her place”.
I'm so tired of that line and have decided that I never want to hear it again, so I'm changing my approach to dating. I've got a date later today and I'll start by not calling her for 3 or 4 days if I want to see her again. This time I'm going to be a challenge and employ a lot of push/pull.
Well AFC, I can't argue with your reasoning. I suspect that you will find more success if you become more of a hardass. Push/pull sounds like a good idea. You know, I've been learning a lot about Game, and I don't object to it in theory. It's based on some pretty sound trial and error analysis of female psychology. I strongly object to Asshole Game, as it's known, which emphasizes the put down as a way to erode a woman's self-esteem. But not showing your hand? Making a woman earn your affection? Maybe that would constitute putting a woman in her place. Don't give yourself away for free. Best of luck, check in again when you have time…
Thanks – as for purposefully putting women down, that's just not in my nature and would feel wrong, so I'm not going that route. I'm thinking more in line of shifting between displaying interest and not, not letting her take me for granted, willingness to walk away at any time etc. etc.
There's a danish online community of gamers. Now that I'm single again, I think I might hook up with members from my town and learn the skills “in the field” in clubs and bars. If nothing else, it will be an interesting trip out of my comfort zone
I'm glad to hear you haven't learned to hate women after some of the experiences you've had. I wholeheartedly agree that no one should be permitted to take you for granted, and that you should have a walk away point in any relationship. This is good advice for both men and women – every one values that which must be earned, including the good opinion and affection of a member of the opposite sex.
Good luck with the sargeing
Hey intresting topic ill add some fresh views on the nice guy persona
what ive come to notice from people who are being nice is that they want something from you look at friends, family or even children by being nice you are trying to manipulate the person into giving you something in a nice guys or anyother group of guys case it all comes down to sex. Im sure women can see through this, woman dont like bad boys cause there assholes and tend to mistreat them its because they are confident and for the most part showing there true nature. You can be a gentleman and swoon the ladies by showing attractive traits like confidence, humour (especially humour) and being independent and not such a boring nice guy that agrees with everything im sure there are exceptions to this nice guy rule but i highly doubt that nice guys are trully nice, remember humans are naturally selfish by nature. Nice guy is just another tactic to bed someone and a pretty bad one at that oh and i recommend reading David DeAngelos book attraction isint a choice really delves into the nice guy being manipulative stuff wow i said nice a lot of times
Hi daftguy, thanks for commenting. I believe what you say about women being drawn to confidence, independence and humor is very true. I think there are lots of guys out there who have selfish desires, of course, but who are also willing to be generous in a relationship if they're getting what they want. All relationships are a two-way street. The problem is, those guys make the mistake of being too nice when trying to get the girl, and it comes across as needy or desperate. Before they know it, they're getting told Let's Just Be Friends. Guys who want to get with girls for real need to figure out this question of balance and timing. Not too much interest up front, and not too soon.
Yes very true i guess what im trying to get at is that woman dont just go for jerks a confident easy going person will actually be seen as a better mate because he wont come with abusive qualities.
Wow this is completely true, I am obsessed with this hard ass jerk for forever… and I have no idea why. We finally went on a date… and it was awesome, but he is now ignoring me… and I have no idea why… this has just opened my eyes. I am a strong girl who has confidence in m self and I NEED to get over him. Thanks.
Hi Meg, welcome and thanks for leaving a comment. You’re not alone, women love hard ass jerks, as this post demonstrates. However, to ignore someone after a date is just rude. Even if he wasn’t looking for Round 2, there’s no reason he can’t be friendly and polite. You do need to get over him. There are good guys out there – you just need to look around and identify one who can stand up for himself without being a douchebag.
Very Nice article. I am a nice guy who likes to treat women the right way. Always open doors, comment on the things they think no one notices(hair, nails, shoes). Any way I end up talking to women and they think I am not straight. I also wind up dating women who are in my opinion definitely not good enough for me so I don’t go on more dates. I am kind of old school in practice. I guess I just have to keep dating and try to find “the one”. It is hard to know a woman’s intentions when I ask them out. I am usually straight forward and say what I am looking for then they run. Guess I am at the wrong age to find someone who likes to travel, help others, and do fun things outdoors and together while maintaining healthy lifestyles and keeping active and beautiful? I am 23 and will be a nurse soon. Thank you for the article. And the book I am currently reading is titled “All the Good Ones Aren’t Taken: Change the Way You Date and Find Lasting Love”. I am also reading the book “Wooden”. I recommend both for all people!
Hi good guy, welcome! Your treatment of women is admirable, but unfortunately, as this article suggests, you will frequently get the LJBF (Let’s Just Be Friends) treatment from them if you signal interest too early or clearly. Women are attracted to dominant males who we perceive have options, and whose affection and interest must be earned. The good news is that any guy can adjust his behavior to incorporate an understanding of female psychology. If you haven’t heard of Game, you might want to look into that. Here’s a post I wrote about it:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/27/hookinguprealities/hate-the-player-but-dont-blame-game/
How can you tell if he is the good-guy-turned-into-a-jerk kind of guy? I’ve been talking to this guy for quite a long time now. I didn’t pay attention much at first. I can’t say I like him yet but I want to get to know him. But then he sometimes just ignore me. Then after a week, that’s when he starts calling me again, everyday sometimes. Then the next week, no word from him at all. It’s just driving me nuts, really. I can’t even tell if he likes me since he’s just like talking to me like he’s my older brother, picking on me or sometimes giving me pieces of advice. But after I read this, ugh, I think that he’s just someone I’d rather ignore, should I? I should start not picking up his calls, right? (by the way, we’re from different parts of the world so we only communicate via phone or chat)
Hi, thanks for leaving a question. In general, it’s important for guys to show consistency. I wouldn’t waste any time with a guy who tries to keep you guessing. However, the fact that you are far away from each other is important – even if he wanted a real relationship, how would that happen? It’s not like he can call you every day and move this forward. So he may be wondering to himself what the point of it is. I would say enjoy his friendship, but do not get emotionally invested, if there is little chance of your ever living near one another.
Thanks much Susan! I’ve been reading some of your other posts. I guess I’m just one that has many different issues
I’m glad! I hope to see you around on some of the other comment threads. I write about 3 times a week, and some of the newer posts generate many comments, so check it out! We need more women in the mix!
In my opinion, this is what’s happening: the guy thinks about you and how nice/pretty you are and calls, texts, etc…for a while. Then, one of two things happens.
1. When you respond, he loses interest because now you’re available (not a good sign for boyfriend material). When you go for a while without speaking, he wonders if you’ve met someone else and tries to get your attention. Repeat.
2. He meets someone else/gets busy with his life and forgets about you for a while. Until he gets lonely, that person dumps him, or his schedule clears up a bit. This isn’t good either.
Both scenarios are bad. I’d say FIDO.
Yeah I think you’re right. Well, I do think of that some other times but my friends would think the other way around, and they would make me think he is THE nice guy. I should stick on my instinct then instead, yeah? Anyways, I like reading the other posts in here, I’m just new so I’ll just see you around! Thanks again Verie
Like Susan said before, advice from your girlfriends at this point is the worst idea. They all want you to be happy & want to make things work out for you / avoid making you feel bad. Usually your mom is out of touch too — she’s coming from a much older generation where things were done very differently. Ask your older brother really (or dad — he’ll usually know what’s up, especially if he was a player back in the day).
My friends are just that optimistic to not clearly see what’s in the real world, like these. So I think I’ll just ask advice from my guy friends. They pretty much give me the exact answer I need to hear. Thanks again!
Everyone’s analysis here is dead on. Women, nonetheless, employ the same tactics to guys particularly if they are not available. So guys, watch out for women who do the push/pull game. They don’t ask questions, act somehow interested, would perhaps hang with you, but won’t commit to anything.
Personally, I hate mind games… I wish everyone would just communicate honestly, but heck that is probably too much to ask. I can’t stand jerks and they are described vividly here, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think about or like them. Women have a tendency to build these jerks up and make excuses concerning their behavior. I don’t understand the psychology either, but I do agree that this happens all the time. I am not with anyone right now, but most of the nice guys who like me do not interest me. I currently like one of the jerks who has not even called me for a month now. Sad, but true! I am a very disciplined person though so if he doesn’t make contact so be it. I’ll meet someone else and it will be his loss!
@kat
Welcome and thanks for commenting! I like your feisty attitude. That should serve you well as long as you lose it to fend off jerks, rather than trying to reel them in. I agree that women can be very manipulative too, and that includes rewriting the truth to fit their wishes.