I found this bit of humor at Buzzfeed, but I suspect know that many guys would call it 100% accurate. We call them jerks and douchebags, but we go for them anyway, don’t we? If we didn’t they’d be forced to stop acting so nasty to get laid. Do we force nice guys into last place?
I hear from a fair number of young men who are just as frustrated as many of you are in the search to find meaningful relationships. One reader here commented that when he got to college and acted like the nice guy he really is, he got nowhere. Not until he assumed the identity of Selfish Prick did he start scoring with the ladies. So this post is dedicated to Douche Baguettes everywhere. You’re guilty because you keep sending the message to men that they need to be cruel and uncaring in order to get anywhere with you. You know who you are, and I want you to tell me why you do it. Let me say up front that many lovely women get blindsided by a bad boy once. Maybe twice. After that, you have a lot to answer for.
The British have a saying: ”Be mean, keep ‘em keen.” Why are we shooting ourselves in the foot time and again?
Here are the most common explanations for why women fall for guys who treat them poorly:
Jerks have many qualities that are attractive to women.
- There’s the mystery surrounding a troubled soul or an enigmatic rebel.
- They exude confidence, though upon closer inspection it is really arrogance.
- They are extraverts.
- They have a lot of charm, i.e. player skills.
- They appear passionate. Usually, they are most passionate about fulfilling their own needs.
- Their intense pursuit is flattering and makes women feel special and desirable.
It’s a challenge.
- Women feel that any love worth having should be earned first.
- They enjoy outplaying a guy (or trying to) at his own game.
- Jerks keep us guessing; we can’t decipher them.
- On the flip side, nice guys are boring and predictable.
Women have a “fixer-upper” complex.
- They look into a guy’s soul and see more than he is showing of himself, and they become hooked on the idea of getting him to open up.
- A flawed man gives this type of woman someone to work on and mold. They wind up viewing the jerk as someone who is misunderstood and unloved, a lurking lonely soul.
It’s emotional.
- Women feel excited, disappointed, and confused. The rush of emotions is exciting and addictive.
- The process inevitably follows this pattern:
1. Jerk shows interest.
2. When woman returns interest, jerk draws back and appears nonchalant.
3. Jerk waits until woman is confused, then provides attention.
4. Repeat.
Weak women attract jerks.
- A jerk will not waste his time on a woman he knows respects herself. He preys on the vulnerable.
- It requires two parties with low self-esteem. The jerk uses a bad boy demeanor as his cover. His snide remarks and sarcasm are defense mechanisms.
Selfish women choose jerks.
- They are just as shallow, prioritizing pursuit and excitement over a real connection.
Women subconsciously replicate their childhoods.
- If a key male figure in your life was a jerk, you’ll seek out jerks for relationships as an adult.
Dating a jerk is the best way to avoid getting into a long-term relationship.
- Until you are ready to settle down with a sweet guy to have babies with, why not have fun with a jerk? Maybe even be a jerk?
It’s a vicious cycle.
- Women are attracted to jerks, form relationships with them, and then try to justify their choice by seeing things in them that no one else can.
Do these reasons ring true, or is there something else going on? Carole Lieberman, MD, coauthor of Bad Boys: Why We Love Them, How to Live with Them, and When to Leave Them says:
“They can be unpredictable, dishonest, or downright mean, but scoundrels have always had an undeniable appeal to us–an erotic edge of danger that’s hard to resist.”
As long as women choose jerks, there will be nice guys converting to jerkdom, especially if they’ve been dumped for a jerk. Nice guys who admit to employing this strategy don’t like it much; they say it’s exhausting to act like a jerk all the time. Let’s give the nice guys a break. Look deeper. Don’t settle. Respect yourself. All of womankind will thank you for it.
Have you ever dated a jerk? How’d that go? Are you cured?
Update: Though it’s no longer feasible to answer each and every question on old posts, I encourage you to post your question at the Forum, where I and other readers can see it an respond:
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I like my jerks just fine thank you! I am pretty sure that I subconsciously pick jerks no matter how consciously I try to pick nice guys. So right now I am picking nothing. I am just letting those berries ripen in their own bush.
Also, when I try to think of a nice guy, I have a hard time really thinking of one. There was one guy I dated who was very nice and very sweet and very good in bed. He was perfect. He is getting married next month to a very cute girl-next-door type. Anyways. He was nice and he also was a little spoiled and a little boring. He didn't get me.
I am a little bit of a bad girl so I think that the bad guys get me more. I feel like we have more in common. What I need to find is a bad guy who is responsible. An ex bad guy. A grown up Johnny Depp.
“In the law-of-attraction kind of way, I am attracted to sane stable people who are a little bit unusual. In the sexual attraction kind of way, I am attracted to idiots and psychos.”
Singlutionary
Haha! Your wit and wisdom follow you! I think Johnny Depp is the personification of sane, stable, unusual. That seems like a good way to go. But why does nice always = boring? Can't a guy be nice and witty? Nice and spontaneous? I just don't get why that is always a null set! (Uh oh, I think the null set concept might be from the New Math of the 1960s. Ouch.) Nice and good in bed, though–sounds like a keeper, though maybe not a match.
Here's the thing. Those nice, 'boring people'? They do find each other. Even the really smart ones. And they do eventually marry. Some sooner than later. This leaves the dating pool evidently filled with 'players', who, well like to 'play'. Sometimes that takes time to work out for both sexes. But naturally the time frame for the women is a bit foreshortened if they desire to have kids. If so the smarter & realistic among them actually figure out all this 'stuff' fast. They have few problems discerning the 'real/decent' prospects from the rest of the players poseurs. And it's really not that difficult to do, mostly. Grandma & great Grandma might have been able to do it w/o any degrees, graduate or otherwise, and dealing with much smaller effective population sizes, (due to natural transportation limitations).
But everyone is mystified about why it takes 'so long' for the educated 'middling' classes to meet, mate & marry. Again it's a Revolution of Rising Expectations. There's always got to be a better looking, sexier, wealthier prospect coming down the pike, and I might miss him/her if I'm otherwise engaged. And now that I'm highly educated I think I deserve better than what momma had, and I know better than her what I really want in a mate.
Still, strangely enough, if we're just talking Biology here and mating strategies, (as in the production of offspring), there are plenty of 'alternative' strategies being played out in any population. Look to the Demographics. Why so many teen pregnancies & births, (especially among certain populations)? Someone has made a very careful & perhaps even cunning calculation that their desirability as a successful romantic partner is peaking at their peak/prime fertility years, right @ HS age. Now that may sound silly and quite precarious to most of us in the middling classes, but it nevertheless may be the truth given the dismal marriage prospects in many communities. They may eventually marry, but perhaps only when grannies themselves. Ditto for the rising rates of single moms by choice later on in their 30's & 40's.
The rest of what you describe here sounds wholly plausible, but of course applies mostly to our select population of perhaps college educated, middle class kids. Or for those in college. That's a pretty select population too. Granted it's getting larger all the time and is well reflected in the media, but this is not the only way people interact. The nice folks? They too eventually figure the game out, and are married off early if they've got any decent game at all. The rest? They provide nice fodder for those 'rebound' relationships whereby you can pick up a 2nd wife/hubby that makes the 1st ones look like the ogres they may have been.
Me? I never had any idea of what the games were or how they were played. Neither did the wife. She mostly did not stand for it. So it was pretty straight forward for us, I recognize it's gotten a bit more difficult for many reasons, but there's still folks getting together everyday using pretty simple rules that any dog trainer might be able to impart. No, Really. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
I was addicted to bad boy jerks for most of my dating life. Interestingly, I do have male abuse issues from my childhood. I finally got weary of it and realized I deserve better. I found a good guy with a twist. He is stable, caring and dependable, but he is also creative (computer nerd and my web designer), plays in a band, his intellect is off the charts, he's funny and good in bed. His Mama taught him how to treat a woman and he learned the lessons well. I realize I'm lucky but had to be open to giving him a chance and being open to be treated respectfully.
Precisely. Eventually all (OK Most) of the 'bad boy addicts' grow up (hey the 40's are rough on everyone!), and they begin to learn to choose better and more wisely. It's not exactly rocket science. The 'good guys'? They're all around you. Most of the time they're pretty patient & understanding too. Just a bit under appreciated & perhaps under utilized. Your loss (of bad boy attentions) is their gain & it's a 'win 'win' for everyone. Case solved! But yes, plenty of it comes from unresolved issues from childhood too. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
Oh, Peach Tart, I really appreciate your openness and honesty! For the record, I think Mr. Peach Tart sounds like the WHOLE PACKAGE–funny, good in bed, smart, caring, dependable, stable, creative, musical. Wow. Congrats on winning the mating lottery!
A fine example of 'mass marketing' for the big date & Yes the entire community is involved in the project:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/photogalleries/polarprom…
Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
I think there is a lot to the emotional issue, as well as the point that women often feel that real love can only be earned. It does seem anthropological – females drive to vie for the alpha male… I think that's why maturity can help – we start using our heart and mind and not just our instincts. Great discussion!
Margo, thanks so much for coming by and leaving a comment! I agree that it is instinctive in many ways – the alpha male would seem to have the most survival skills. Also I think it is just part of human nature that we enjoy a challenge. I think I am particularly prone to “fixer-upper complex.” I find it addictive when a normally closed down man shows his emotional side or vulnerability.
I think you're also right about maturity. That goes for the guys too – I think there are many who act like jerks when they are young and wanting to impress their buddies with their conquests, who will eventually mature and grow out of that behavior. The ones that remain bad boys forever are truly toxic!
Still wasting time, this time from Health care things. More Flying Squads on more urgent things.
Be that as it may. Your sources? Probably need some beefing up too. Start with Prof. Stephanie Coontz: & her really informative book on the History of Marriage & LTR's:
“Marriage, A History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage” 2005, based on her 30 some years of research, teaching & wring on the topic.
http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/books/marriage/
She's also got plenty of valuable articles here:
http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/articles/
Here's some other professional sources on research into Marriage & marriage formation:
http://ncmr.bgsu.edu/links.html
And here from Rutgers' their famously long lived Marriage Project:
http://marriage.rutgers.edu/
Some of this research is yes, more from a 'conservative bent & perspective' so everyone needs to use it critically. But the numbers, facts, trends and demographics are there to spark debate. It's up to everyone to try and help interpret what's actually going on out there in the 'wild'.
But other than 'fun', mostly while younger, 'hooking up' is hopefully, ideally leading 'someplace'. Eventually both parties will agree on that, mostly. There are a few exceptions, but this smaller group of the 'never marrieds' (~20%) are expanding. True, some folks will never marry, but they remain in the minority, and are yes, mostly considered 'unfortunate' unless fairly wealthy and independently successful in other venues. Very, very few will never have been in a 'significant' or valuable 'LTR' or touched by similar experiences that can not be classed as more than merely 'hooking up' .
So I realize your aims here, but just strongly offering ideas about battling the 'fun hookup culture' really has to be about a larger frame here too. We just can't keep screaming that 'ice cream (sex, even casual) is Bad for you!' It's also about goals and aims and about future direction, which is very hard to inculcate into any 20 something's mindset. And those that 'get it'? They typically don't need much advice except for the introductions part perhaps. But maybe that's wishful thinking too. But plenty of this has some serious economic history & demographic implications too, naturally. Not to worry or obsess over, but to recognize that life changes for everyone, especially our children & other newer generations.
I think mostly many of these past changes have been demonstrably positive for most women, economically, socially, physically & even emotionally. There's more variety, more & better choices about more things, and more opportunity in almost every respect than there was even 25 years ago for most American women. Prof Coontz would agree with that premise too. The devil is how to cope with all the massive changes that are coming so quickly. And it's a wilderness of unknowns out there, and naturally our children are left to navigate it as best they can. Often without much good or sensible advice. The 'new abstinence' movement is really not the answer for most, as even most very religious people will have had premarital sex (90%+). Hooking up smarter is a good start, but behavioral economics tells us that even very well informed people can do some foolish things. And that's just with money & investments. When it comes to the monumental and elemental pull of sex and that cute dreamy B/G? I really do fear that many of us are doomed to repeat some very poor choices, and only regret them much later & slowly at our leisure. Naturally we have a word for those people. They're Retired! (But even that does not stop some of them from renewing their afflictions & unwise affections!)
Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
I'm one of those nice guys, unfortunately.
Having been brought up in a single parent household by my feminist mother, I learned
very early on the importance of respecting women. I'm smart, funny, caring and have a
lot of other 'nice' qualities women CLAIM to be looking for in a man, when asked.
Let's just say being nice hasn't proved to be that effective, which is becoming painfully
clear to me. My last girlfriend left me after three months to go back to the jerk
ex-boyfriend who had severely mistreated her for seven years.
I really hate having to change the way I behave to be more successful romantically,
but as an experiment I'm going to try some of the proven pickup artist techniques.. putting girls down to spark attraction, seeing multiple girls at once, ignoring her, being
cocky/funny etc.
Whether I'll convert to complete jerkdom remains to be seen – I'm hoping less will do
Oy, I hate to lose another guy to the Douchebag team. I understand it, though. That's why I do call women out on their choices. I really hate the PUA stuff, though. OK, maybe that will get you laid, but if you ever want something real with a girl, you're going to find that you've wound up with a girl who has low self-esteem, and you're not going to be able to respect her.
I'm gonna trust, though, that ultimately you will be your sweet self, the boy your wonderful mama raised, and you will find someone who wants every bit of your natural niceness!
Thanks for commenting, women really need to hear this from guys.
I don't like PUA techniques either and I really don't want to become one of those shallow PUA-people – some of whom become really messed up from playing The Game.
I guess I'm just really tired of trying to be my honest, nice self to little avail while seeing these guys hook up with lots of girls using their deceptive ways while basically treating them like dirt.
I'll give it all some thought before doing anything drastic. The more I think about it, the more I don't want to go down that road. It might sound strange coming from a guy, but I would much prefer a serious relationship to 'meaningless' sex.
Maybe I'm just feeling particularly bitter and frustrated after my girlfriend left. The last thing she told me before going back to her abusive ex was literally “I really don't want to lose you as a friend – you're just so incredibly sweet!”. To think I actually considered it..
Ugh, I can't believe she used that line. That's selfish. She should want what is best for you, not to have you hanging around feeling badly.
Hey, listen, I know several hundred women who would probably love to know you! Maybe I should start an online dating site for young people…
I really appreciate the sentiment, but unless one of them is living in Denmark, it's going to be a very very long distance relationship
But happy to know some women out there are actually looking for nice guys. Gives me hope that things might not look so bleak, after all..
Yes, many women really are looking for a great guy. You need to make sure you're not going for the douche baguettes, though. Keep looking for a nice girl.
Oh, btw, if you're Danish, your English is incredible. Or maybe you're a native English speaker living there – lucky you.
Good to hear – I'll keep up the search!
I'm Danish, so thanks for the compliment! One of the benefits of living in a country with only 5 million inhabitants is having to learn a second and third language, I suppose
I must confess. I struggle between being good and bad. I'm conflicted. I have no trouble being either one, but its scary. Sometimes I wonder if its a mental health issue. But the relationships I've have lead me to believe that you have to treat women unfortunately like they don't exist, because they are always using their beauty to try to manipulate men. Having falling victim to this several times-I refuse to repeat the same mistake, but in the twist in my character has become “I don't give a %*C&” I you like me it's fine I you don't like me its also fine. The thing is no I have trouble approaching woman and so I try to make them approach me by giving them space and ignoring them. Once I am able to bridge the gap I let some of the natural course take its place. But the truth is woman as well as men have helped to create this current mess.
vincentd, thanks very much for leaving a comment. Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, I think women have to bear the brunt of the blame on this. If ignoring women wasn't effective for guys, they would stop doing it. Women need to learn to value the nice guy. As they mature I think most women do that — they want a good man as a lifelong partner and father to their children. But especially when they're young, they fall for the players, get played, and keep repeating the cycle. It puts the nice guys in a real bind, as you have experienced for yourself. My advice to both women and men is to keep looking for a person who you can really be your true self with.
Chalk one more to the “nice guy gone selfish prick” type.
Also, I've been told “we go for bad boys when we are young, but we want nice guys to marry and have children” by girl friends who thought they were consoling me after the last disappointment. Jesus Christ, can't they tell how off-putting, calculating, mental and selfish it sounds? Stop saying that to anyone with a penis and a bit of pride!
Ignoring girls for most of the time has become normal after the last blows. I never understood how someone could turn into a jerk like this, but now it's clear it's mostly a natural reaction. You just become extremely cynical.
Figaro, thanks so much for leaving a comment. What a waste! Another good guy gone over to the dark side! Seriously, I don't blame you for being totally offended when girls tell you to wait around, your turn as the nice guy will come when they're done sowing their wild oats. Talk about sloppy seconds. I agree that many people are cynical in relationships, both women and men. It makes me wonder how to get the nice guys together with the nice girls. Not all women want a bad boy, and not all guys are players. We need to figure out a way to get the bad boys matched up to the women who want them.
When a woman tell me like what I was told at the gym today “I'm coming back”; I just chuckle to myself smile and walk away. So for all the men and women who have come across similar words just walk away. If he or she like you they'll catch up with you at another time. Don't be petty about bringing it up again when they approach you. Or you can wait there like a wall flower;)
Just a quick update. I must admit, I'm getting exceedingly frustrated
I've been dating a lot of girls since I last commented, aiming at finding a nice girl for a long term relationship – at it always seems to turn out the same. A good example of how it usually goes is my last experience: These past few weeks, I've been dating a girl who seemed VERY interested in me. On our third date (which she suggested) we had a great evening together having dinner at my place and ended up having sex. At the end of the night, she said: “We DEFINITELY need to do this again” and we kissed before she left for home.
The next day, I called her and she didn't answer the phone. Texted her the next day, which she didn't reply to. Then she finally called me and told me she thought things were moving way too fast (which she hadn't given any signs of or mentioned before) and she needed time to think. Four days later, she sent me the following text while I was at work:
“Hi. I'm sorry to say that I don't think we should see each other again. The dates have been great and I think you're really good company, but unfortunately I don't have any butterflies in my stomach. Good luck in your future search. Hugs”
To be honest, it has been an eye opener for me. I'm not going to resort to PUA-tactics, but the next time I date a girl, I'm going to wait 3-4 days before calling her after dates – even if we slept together.
Hey, vincentd, welcome back! I think your approach is 100% right on. “I'm coming back?” Like you are supposed to stand around waiting on her? Why is it such a power struggle? Why can't we just get to know each other? How about letting someone know outright that you are interested, and they can respond? No games. Seriously, I'm wondering if anyone falls in love anymore.
a;lkdjfa;lkdfja;lksdfja;lkdjf;alksdfj Gaaaah, how frustrating! I can imagine how fed up you are! OK, first of all, there is NOTHING wrong with the way you behaved. Most women desperately want to hear from the guy the day after sex. This is all her, not you. Let me just give you some quick impressions:
1. She was all about it. And then she did a 180. I don't think this has to do with your being a great guy, I think this has to do with her own issues around intimacy.
2. You get 1,000,000 bonus points for making dinner for her at your place. You are such a keeper, many women would die for that.
3. You had sex, sounds like she was totally into it. Left pushing for another round. Something happened in her head right after that, like a switch got flipped. There is absolutely no way this could be your fault. It is possible that she didn't feel sexually compatible — it happens, but then I don't know why she would have said she DEF wanted to do it again. That's strange.
4. She was rude. Not answering, not replying to a text. Her call saying things were moving too fast is probably the most honest feedback you got from her. Clearly, the sex freaked her out. But that final text? What crap! Ugh, no butterflies? Good luck in your future search? Hugs? She gets 1,000,000 demerits for texting that. Both her method and her content suck!
OK, I'll stop ranting. Seriously, it sounds like she is not ready or emotionally available. I don't know her history, but she sent you VERY mixed signals. Please do not allow this to color the way you treat women in the future. Be choosy about the women you sleep with — make sure the two of you are on the same page first. I feel crazy giving this advice to a guy, but you say you want a real relationship. And don't stop calling the next day – don't stop being a sweet guy. There are sweet women out there, you just have to be patient and keep trying.
Such a waste. You are frustrated, but you are neither average nor a chump. And the whole Danish thing – American women would love that!
Very frustrating indeed. Maybe I'm just really unlucky with the girls I meet. I still have hopes for meeting someone who's more emotionally mature and who doesn't enjoy these games.. you'd think women in their early 30's were past this stuff.
I had a good feeling about her potential as a girlfriend and we both wanted to sleep with each other that night – so I didn't think twice about it. When she called me to say things had been moving too fast, she mentioned that I shouldn't attribute any meaning to us having sex, since she was able to separate her feelings 100% from having sex with someone.. ouch.
You're right about her being rude in her reactions and the more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to see that she wasn't a woman for me. I really want to believe that showing interest, being courteous and calling the next day can work out. I've just had quite a few experiences that tell me showing interest kills the attraction for the woman.
Thanks for your kind words and impressions! I'll keep trying and if everything fails, maybe I'll move to the US
When I finally succeed in finding a sweet woman, I'll be sure to let you know. For now, I'm going to try to relax, have fun and date a woman I wrote some time back on a dating site, who wrote me yesterday wanting to get back in touch (long story) – how's that for good timing?
I have one thought I'd like to share with you. I do wonder about the women that you pursue/are attracted to. I have to assume that the vast majority of single women in their early 30s are seeking a relationship. You clearly have no trouble attracting women, so it's not you. And if you're meeting people online, then it should be possible to see who is explicitly stating they are looking for a serious relationship (profiles are not always accurate, I know). It just sounds to me that you've had more than your fair share of women who are playing games or don't know what they want.
I think you should consider what kind of woman you want, and then look for her in the places that kind of person might spend time. (I wrote a post on this, How to Find a Great Guy, change the gender obvs, but the principle is the same.) A mature woman with her act together is not turned off by a guy showing interest. A college girl? Yes, perhaps. But a woman whose clock is running? No. I know there are many women who would be thrilled to find a man like you. You just have to figure out how to identify them.
Well, I actually met 'texting girl' on a dating site, where she was listed as looking for a boyfriend, after she added me to her list of favourites. I'm not really interested in a casual relationship, so I tend to avoid those profiles. Most of the women I've dated during the last six months have been ones from dating sites, mainly because it seems like a good way to find someone with similar interests and values – who's looking for a serious relationship.
Thanks for the heads up about the article. I'm also trying to find a girlfriend IRL and have met a lot of great new friends, mainly through various workout activities, like mountainbiking and the gym.. but no real candidates yet.. I'll keep looking, though
I suppose each and everyone of us has to work on ways to increase our value. Too much circulation makes the price go down, but admittedly when I fancy a woman greatly I try to get her to invest, because I can't come on the cheap: it's not like when we were 21 and everything was a novel experience. Now it's about quality so I don't mind tightening my game a bit, especially with a 40 year old muse.
Well, it sounds like you're a realist, and that's a good thing. Also, you're right in line with my own ideas about the supply and demand of sex, so I approve! Also, it's good that you are tightening your game, you will get a better quality woman that way.
With all respect you can not gain the respect of anyone, much less a woman if you are acting like an AVERAGEFRUSTRATEDCHUMP. So for starters, and you really seem like a cool dude; change your name to a more positive one like “the man” that way you will begin after a few weeks or months to assume a new you. Trust me this works. Go to the gym bomb your back, walk straight shoulders relaxed, don't talk to anyone and watch and see how women and men will be drawn to you like a magnet described in Oscar Wilds steel filing fable. Trust me I have been through the worst any man can ever go through with a woman. Re-invent yourself. Vincent The less you say the better.
The name was just based on my first post since it's PUA-lingo for non-PUAs. I kept it throughout to
But thanks for the tips. I already do three strength training sessions a week as well as loads of cardio – mountainbiking, cycling, spin classes and rowing. But I agree on the importance of training.. it increases self-confidence and overall mood.
As for not talking to anyone, I've struggled somewhat with social anxiety in the past and have pretty much gotten rid of it by pushing through the fear – meeting new people and talking to lots of people in general.
I am reinventing myself, though. These past six months after my girlfriend broke up with me have actually been very benificial. My self-esteem is now pretty solid and I'm doing thing I wouldn't have dreamed of earlier.
Add to the first paragraph: .. it thoughout to keep the same name in the thread.
I have a daughter with budding asshole-itis that I am trying to nip in the bud. I have learned that I have to keep the comments very simple and continue to drive them home.
1) Men are not women. They do not think like women. remember that. They think like me.
2) If a man is interested in you, he will show it
3) You should like a boy because you like him, not because your friends like him, or because he's the flavor of the day.
4) Men do not like women who sleep around a lot.
5) Nothing will ever change the behavior of men dividing women into two groups; the ones they will sleep with and the ones they will marry
6) Unless you have a really pretty face and world-class boobs, every pound you put on removes one percent of the guys you know from your potential dating pool.
Dad, thanks so much for leaving a comment! It is awesome that you are taking the time to try to teach your daughter about the realities of relationships. I think so few men feel comfortable broaching this topic with their daughters, but you carry enormous influence with her as someone who understands how men really think. I have learned a great deal just from the comments left by men here! Principles 1-5 don't surprise me at all – there is a great deal of anecdotal and funded research that comes to the same conclusions. #6 is harsh, though! I guess the question is, what do guys consider the ideal weight? Many women strive to attain a thinness that is more boyish than womanly. I've always thought men like a woman with some curves, provided that she is fit. I do see that a lot, though. Men talk a lot about women who ruin their looks by putting on weight. In any case, if you send your daughter here to HUS, I promise she'll get a lot of info. that will back up what you are trying to teach her
I don't think there is an objective ideal when it comes to weight for guys – although a girl being directly overweight will put a lot of men off. But then again, one of my friends is married to a very sweet girl who's obese and who has become one of my close friends. There might be some slight cultural differences, however, since I live in Denmark where the average BMI is lower than in the US.
Personally, I much prefer women with curves and don't find skinny girl attractive. The 'supermodel look' is just about the most unattractive look a woman can have, in my opinion.
Ah, so glad to hear it! I've read that evolution has provided for men to prefer an hourglass figure, as it demonstrates fertility. However, cultural norms that indicate status trump that natural inclination. That means that if rail-thin women, e.g. supermodels, enjoy the designation of ideal female beauty, as they do in our time, that will take precedence over an instinctive preference for curves. So how do we go about changing the fashion???
One interesting note: overweight is unattractive to everyone. I'm in Italy right now. The other night we went to dinner at a very nice restaurant. There was a couple waiting for a table – she was blonde, speaking very halting Italian. The guy was Italian, working very hard to charm her and make himself understood. His face was gorgeous, chiseled features, light eyes, lush black hair and lashes. She was attractive, but not nearly as much as he was. As they were led to their table, I noticed that he was carrying a large spare tire around the middle! It completely changed my view of him. Suddenly, I was thinking, this poor woman, I wonder how early tonight she can get rid of this guy? So, that's a prejudice I think we all share.
I don't think extremely thin models are attractive to most men. They way I see it, the fashion industry and it's ideals are dictated by women. An obvious place to look for what's attractive to most men today is the porn industry.. you won't find many rail-thin women there
I do agree that overweight as such is unattractive to most people, although it's a very unfortunate prejudice. I'm in great shape today, but I used to be overweight and felt that I would never be able to find a partner. I know that the wife of my friend thought she could never get a boyfriend – at least not someone who wasn't overweight himself.. luckily that wasn't true.
As far as attractive features are concerned, I read an interesting article recently. Since women have started taking “the pill” to avoid pregnancy, their preference for men have changed significantly.
Before the pill, women used to be most attracted to men with very masculine features like big muscles, chiseled facial features or a prominent jaw – Burt Lancaster, for instance.
Now after many years, supposedly the hormonal changes means women today are more attracted to men with boyish looks, like Michael J. Fox. That might also explain the fascination with 'metrosexual' men like David Beckham
You've touched on something I've been researching! The long-term effect of the Pill on sexual selection. Because the Pill changes women's pheromones, they're sending out different signals than they would naturally, and presumably attracting different men. Your point about how it's changing women's preferences is fascinating. More estrogen = wanting a baby face? Can't wait to write that post!
It really is a pretty interesting subject area.
I read a popular scientific journal a while ago about a related finding. Apparently women are more attracted to physically masculine men with specific personality traits just before they ovulate. They are narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sub-clinical psychopathy, also known as the “Dark Triad” – basically the traits of a “Bad boy”.
The Pill negates this effect and leads to a sort of “unnatural selection”, if you will. This has also lead to lower rates of babies being born where the supposed father isn't really the father, since women are less likely to risk their relationship by sleeping with a “Bad boy” if they are on the Pill.
If I remember correctly, about 12% of babies have been conceived with another man than the one in the relationship. Supposedly, that number was somewhat higher in the past.
Yes, I've read that number is 20%, which strikes me as very high. For that matter, 12% seems high. That's a whole lot of cuckolding. Relationship science is a fascinating area – if you come across anything really interesting, please send me the link! Thx.
I think for a nice guy you can't find a woman you can be your true self with before being a fake asshole to a bunch of women. Even if you find a girl that likes you as a nice guy, she still won't be thrilled to be with such an inexperienced nice guy who doesn't know how to turn women on. And as a nice guy, you just can't get any experience without being an asshole.
Yeah, when girls say that, it just sounds like girls are using nice guys to provide the lifestyle they want after they tire of playing with badboys. Sorry if I'm less than enthused to fill that role.
There's a big numeric discrepency there. It's true that not all girls want players but 80% of them do. The remainder marry pretty early since they have a huge selection of nice guys to choose from when they are young. As guys get older, more and more nice guys turn to the darkside. If anything, that's one of the big driving forces that determines when a woman needs to settle down. She has to do it before there are too many nice guys taken out of the pool.
I don't understand how the don't talk to anyone thing can work. I've been antisocial for many years in the past and nothing ever happened. How the heck does it work?
I don't know what you're talking about regarding David Beckham. He's very masculine looking with a square jaw. Not super square but still square.
I've read that's it's only 4% which was dertermined by doctors who accidentally discovered false paternity when looking for various organ and blood donors within the family.
Amen to that. You are 100% right. The thing is, women may be attracted to players, but we are not ruled by our libidos. We can also be disgusted by the behavior of a player once we see through it. Women need to make decisions with experience and reason rather than just sexual attraction. It helps a lot if the nice guys are developing themselves so that they can behave with confidence. It doesn't really take much more than that.
Amen to that. You are 100% right. The thing is, women may be attracted to players, but we are not ruled by our libidos. We can also be disgusted by the behavior of a player once we see through it. Women need to make decisions with experience and reason rather than just sexual attraction. It helps a lot if the nice guys are developing themselves so that they can behave with confidence. It doesn't really take much more than that.
I really agree with this entire post!
# They exude confidence, though upon closer inspection it is really arrogance.
Yeah…confidence is a good thing. Tons of guys think they are “hot shit” though, which is arrogance. They think they are better than you.
# They appear passionate. Usually, they are most passionate about fulfilling their own needs.
Yes! Their own need is sex. Bad boys will do anything for sex.
# Their intense pursuit is flattering and makes women feel special and desirable.
Yes, I love when I'm getting attention from a cute guy. I feel special, especially when I'm bored going homework and I get a nice/funny/cute/witty text from a cute guy.
* They enjoy outplaying a guy (or trying to) at his own game.
Ugh I try to do this so often. I once called a guy out and told him he was a player and I could play better. We proceeded to ask everyone who had more “game” and it came 50/50. ugh I was drunk at the time, but honestly, I want to feel like I can outplay them, and “win” their dumb game.
* Jerks keep us guessing; we can’t decipher them.
Yes, we never know if they're gonna text us today, or later in the week. I like trying to “figure them out”…a statement I realized I use a lot.
* On the flip side, nice guys are boring and predictable.
Yes, nice guys sometimes don't know how to carry on a conversation with a girl. Sometime they'll ask too many questions about ourselves and not flirt well, or tease us. It's just a straightforward conversation you can have with like, a teacher, and that can be boring.
1. Jerk shows interest.
2. When woman returns interest, jerk draws back and appears nonchalant.
3. Jerk waits until woman is confused, then provides attention.
4. Repeat.
OMG this is amazingly true to me and my friends. Yes, they want your number and show interest. But then when they text you and they realize you like them back, they draw back and you don't hear from them for a little. Then they'll come back, show attention again, and then ultimately drop you if they believe you want a relationship and want things to get more serious.
Yes, and guys probably can see I'm insecure and if I do believe the things they say that are lies, they get away with it, and try to see how far they can get with me. But that was the old me…I've learned so much from my experiences this year and next time a bad boy shows interest, he'll have to PROVE himself. I am attracted to looks first, so if a good looking guy shows interest, and I believe he's nice, I'll want to talk to him and get to know him. I just have to keep meeting new people…eventually one will be normal and will want to get to know me for me…I hope
Just a quick update from me. I've been busy dating and found a girlfriend – an intelligent and funloving 33-year old (I'm 32). We were together for two months before she broke up with me. The reason: I was “too nice” and she “needed someone who could put her in her place”.
I'm so tired of that line and have decided that I never want to hear it again, so I'm changing my approach to dating. I've got a date later today and I'll start by not calling her for 3 or 4 days if I want to see her again. This time I'm going to be a challenge and employ a lot of push/pull.
Well AFC, I can't argue with your reasoning. I suspect that you will find more success if you become more of a hardass. Push/pull sounds like a good idea. You know, I've been learning a lot about Game, and I don't object to it in theory. It's based on some pretty sound trial and error analysis of female psychology. I strongly object to Asshole Game, as it's known, which emphasizes the put down as a way to erode a woman's self-esteem. But not showing your hand? Making a woman earn your affection? Maybe that would constitute putting a woman in her place. Don't give yourself away for free. Best of luck, check in again when you have time…
Thanks – as for purposefully putting women down, that's just not in my nature and would feel wrong, so I'm not going that route. I'm thinking more in line of shifting between displaying interest and not, not letting her take me for granted, willingness to walk away at any time etc. etc.
There's a danish online community of gamers. Now that I'm single again, I think I might hook up with members from my town and learn the skills “in the field” in clubs and bars. If nothing else, it will be an interesting trip out of my comfort zone
I'm glad to hear you haven't learned to hate women after some of the experiences you've had. I wholeheartedly agree that no one should be permitted to take you for granted, and that you should have a walk away point in any relationship. This is good advice for both men and women – every one values that which must be earned, including the good opinion and affection of a member of the opposite sex.
Good luck with the sargeing
Hey intresting topic ill add some fresh views on the nice guy persona
what ive come to notice from people who are being nice is that they want something from you look at friends, family or even children by being nice you are trying to manipulate the person into giving you something in a nice guys or anyother group of guys case it all comes down to sex. Im sure women can see through this, woman dont like bad boys cause there assholes and tend to mistreat them its because they are confident and for the most part showing there true nature. You can be a gentleman and swoon the ladies by showing attractive traits like confidence, humour (especially humour) and being independent and not such a boring nice guy that agrees with everything im sure there are exceptions to this nice guy rule but i highly doubt that nice guys are trully nice, remember humans are naturally selfish by nature. Nice guy is just another tactic to bed someone and a pretty bad one at that oh and i recommend reading David DeAngelos book attraction isint a choice really delves into the nice guy being manipulative stuff wow i said nice a lot of times
Hi daftguy, thanks for commenting. I believe what you say about women being drawn to confidence, independence and humor is very true. I think there are lots of guys out there who have selfish desires, of course, but who are also willing to be generous in a relationship if they're getting what they want. All relationships are a two-way street. The problem is, those guys make the mistake of being too nice when trying to get the girl, and it comes across as needy or desperate. Before they know it, they're getting told Let's Just Be Friends. Guys who want to get with girls for real need to figure out this question of balance and timing. Not too much interest up front, and not too soon.
Yes very true i guess what im trying to get at is that woman dont just go for jerks a confident easy going person will actually be seen as a better mate because he wont come with abusive qualities.
Wow this is completely true, I am obsessed with this hard ass jerk for forever… and I have no idea why. We finally went on a date… and it was awesome, but he is now ignoring me… and I have no idea why… this has just opened my eyes. I am a strong girl who has confidence in m self and I NEED to get over him. Thanks.
Hi Meg, welcome and thanks for leaving a comment. You’re not alone, women love hard ass jerks, as this post demonstrates. However, to ignore someone after a date is just rude. Even if he wasn’t looking for Round 2, there’s no reason he can’t be friendly and polite. You do need to get over him. There are good guys out there – you just need to look around and identify one who can stand up for himself without being a douchebag.
Very Nice article. I am a nice guy who likes to treat women the right way. Always open doors, comment on the things they think no one notices(hair, nails, shoes). Any way I end up talking to women and they think I am not straight. I also wind up dating women who are in my opinion definitely not good enough for me so I don’t go on more dates. I am kind of old school in practice. I guess I just have to keep dating and try to find “the one”. It is hard to know a woman’s intentions when I ask them out. I am usually straight forward and say what I am looking for then they run. Guess I am at the wrong age to find someone who likes to travel, help others, and do fun things outdoors and together while maintaining healthy lifestyles and keeping active and beautiful? I am 23 and will be a nurse soon. Thank you for the article. And the book I am currently reading is titled “All the Good Ones Aren’t Taken: Change the Way You Date and Find Lasting Love”. I am also reading the book “Wooden”. I recommend both for all people!
Hi good guy, welcome! Your treatment of women is admirable, but unfortunately, as this article suggests, you will frequently get the LJBF (Let’s Just Be Friends) treatment from them if you signal interest too early or clearly. Women are attracted to dominant males who we perceive have options, and whose affection and interest must be earned. The good news is that any guy can adjust his behavior to incorporate an understanding of female psychology. If you haven’t heard of Game, you might want to look into that. Here’s a post I wrote about it:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/27/hookinguprealities/hate-the-player-but-dont-blame-game/
How can you tell if he is the good-guy-turned-into-a-jerk kind of guy? I’ve been talking to this guy for quite a long time now. I didn’t pay attention much at first. I can’t say I like him yet but I want to get to know him. But then he sometimes just ignore me. Then after a week, that’s when he starts calling me again, everyday sometimes. Then the next week, no word from him at all. It’s just driving me nuts, really. I can’t even tell if he likes me since he’s just like talking to me like he’s my older brother, picking on me or sometimes giving me pieces of advice. But after I read this, ugh, I think that he’s just someone I’d rather ignore, should I? I should start not picking up his calls, right? (by the way, we’re from different parts of the world so we only communicate via phone or chat)
Hi, thanks for leaving a question. In general, it’s important for guys to show consistency. I wouldn’t waste any time with a guy who tries to keep you guessing. However, the fact that you are far away from each other is important – even if he wanted a real relationship, how would that happen? It’s not like he can call you every day and move this forward. So he may be wondering to himself what the point of it is. I would say enjoy his friendship, but do not get emotionally invested, if there is little chance of your ever living near one another.
Thanks much Susan! I’ve been reading some of your other posts. I guess I’m just one that has many different issues
I’m glad! I hope to see you around on some of the other comment threads. I write about 3 times a week, and some of the newer posts generate many comments, so check it out! We need more women in the mix!
In my opinion, this is what’s happening: the guy thinks about you and how nice/pretty you are and calls, texts, etc…for a while. Then, one of two things happens.
1. When you respond, he loses interest because now you’re available (not a good sign for boyfriend material). When you go for a while without speaking, he wonders if you’ve met someone else and tries to get your attention. Repeat.
2. He meets someone else/gets busy with his life and forgets about you for a while. Until he gets lonely, that person dumps him, or his schedule clears up a bit. This isn’t good either.
Both scenarios are bad. I’d say FIDO.
Yeah I think you’re right. Well, I do think of that some other times but my friends would think the other way around, and they would make me think he is THE nice guy. I should stick on my instinct then instead, yeah? Anyways, I like reading the other posts in here, I’m just new so I’ll just see you around! Thanks again Verie
Like Susan said before, advice from your girlfriends at this point is the worst idea. They all want you to be happy & want to make things work out for you / avoid making you feel bad. Usually your mom is out of touch too — she’s coming from a much older generation where things were done very differently. Ask your older brother really (or dad — he’ll usually know what’s up, especially if he was a player back in the day).
My friends are just that optimistic to not clearly see what’s in the real world, like these. So I think I’ll just ask advice from my guy friends. They pretty much give me the exact answer I need to hear. Thanks again!
Everyone’s analysis here is dead on. Women, nonetheless, employ the same tactics to guys particularly if they are not available. So guys, watch out for women who do the push/pull game. They don’t ask questions, act somehow interested, would perhaps hang with you, but won’t commit to anything.
Personally, I hate mind games… I wish everyone would just communicate honestly, but heck that is probably too much to ask. I can’t stand jerks and they are described vividly here, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think about or like them. Women have a tendency to build these jerks up and make excuses concerning their behavior. I don’t understand the psychology either, but I do agree that this happens all the time. I am not with anyone right now, but most of the nice guys who like me do not interest me. I currently like one of the jerks who has not even called me for a month now. Sad, but true! I am a very disciplined person though so if he doesn’t make contact so be it. I’ll meet someone else and it will be his loss!
@kat
Welcome and thanks for commenting! I like your feisty attitude. That should serve you well as long as you lose it to fend off jerks, rather than trying to reel them in. I agree that women can be very manipulative too, and that includes rewriting the truth to fit their wishes.
Although I do admit I’ve been sexually attracted to guys who gave off a douchebag vibe, those I actually dated/considered dating were always sweet and openly showed me their affection. I would hate going after someone who doesn’t seem interested in me; it’s not worth the chase, imho.
Well, that’s how I ultimately ended up dating a purportedly “nice guy,” who – as it turns out – was an impressively skilled player. He cheated on me multiple times by switching his f*ck buddies. In fact, I’m honestly scared to date guys who pay so much attention to me, for as alluring they may be, I’m sure they’re just good at gathering game to toy with.
@Happily-ish Single
Ugh. Be sure to read my post about how not to fall for a player! There are signs to look out for – players really do show red flags if you’re paying attention. Thanks for leaving a comment!
i dated a jerk for 3 years, I’m over it and now I’m ready to be with a more well-balance guy.
I’m a nice guy, and it’s completely in my nature. I don’t think I could convert to “Jerkdom” (whatever that means specifically) even if I tried.
And for most of my life I was generally not successful with women. I never blamed my lack of success on being nice (I’ve always understood that that particular commonly- stated correlation is absurd), but until a couple years ago I really couldn’t figure out what to blame it on. And after I grew out of my hyper-low-self-esteem adolescence (something that is really quite common across people), I also knew it wasn’t because of my physical looks or personality traits (physically I’m attractive, and there is nothing wrong my intelligence, interests, sense of humor, yada, yada, yada). Honestly it was just a conundrum to me why I wasn’t more successful with the ladies.
It dawned on me at some point (as a said, just a couple years ago) that the problem was mainly that I simply came off as being too easy. It’s not that I was actually being easy — I had very specific tastes in women, but my approach didn’t make it feel that way. If was interested in someone, I made it abundantly clear and they could have however much attention and affection that they desired. And I know that it is true that women really *do* crave a person that can offer a lot of kindness and affection and support. But most of all they like to feel special. And it’s this last point that took me so long to figure out. From the perspective of a given women I was interested in, my appearance of being easy for her didn’t make her feel like she won me, or like she attracted me because of her special qualities, or like she deserved me for anything that she did. Of course all of these things would always be true of her, but if she didn’t get the gut feeling that they were, a relationship would never blossom.
Now, I’m a giving person naturally (it makes me feel good), so I couldn’t solve this problem by “turning off” my natural tendencies, or by pretending to being someone I was not, or by playing mind games. But it accentually occurred to me that I could solve it by simply spreading the love around. Even if was interested in someone, I didn’t focus my attention on them. In social settings, I would flirt with everyone equally, regardless of how interested I was in them. I started to hug people hello. I started to talk to anyone about anything, rather than focusing my attention on the people I found most interesting. I didn’t give out less affection or attention than before, but instead I divided it among more people.
And really this did solve all my problems with women, without having to change my personality or become a bad guy. Suddenly women were starting to *approach me* (something that never used to happen), and completing to earn my attention. In essence, I put myself in a position where I would have to choose who I gave extra attention to. Or to word it differently, I would have to select between options. The very act of being selective made me more desirable, because when I did focus more of my attention on a particular woman, she knew she earned it. And winning feels pretty good, no matter what it is you win. It feels even better if the win comes with a prize you really want (and attention and affection are things everything wants). Once this started to happen, my self-confidence improved, and since my interactions with women were more frequent, my personality itself improved (experience in general does that). This increased confidence made me even more selective, which in turn made me even more desirable. And I didn’t have to play any games to make this happen — it’s just the way it worked out.
So my advice to nice men who are having problems with woman — don’t stop being nice! Just starting being nice to more women. The ones who like your attention and want more of it will not-so-subtly let you know. And I assure you some of them are going to be the ones you would have picked to shower attention on anyway =).
Will, that’s a great story, thanks for sharing it! I love it that you were able to determine through trial and error how to attract women. The two most important things you hit on, IMO are these:
1. Women do want to earn a man’s affection. They know that men feel attracted physically, but no sense of devotion, commitment, wanting to spend time together, etc. should be displayed unless a woman has proven herself worthy. When men fall all over women for no reason other than their looks, they will be perceived as shallow and too easily won.
2. You benefited from social proof – becoming more desirable as women saw you get attention from other women. Again, withdrawing attention (or not providing it up front) was key. You were smart to be selective and to present yourself as a man with options.
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Well done!
I’m a nice guy but I don’t want to finish last. Last May I took this girl to a work banquet. She got really drunk and went home with another dude. The guy didn’t work with us. He crashed our work banquet with a friend. He showed me his hunting knife! Yes, he brought a HUNTING knife to a formal banquet he wasn’t invited to! They rode off drunk in his car (He had inter-lock ignition from a DWI!) I swore there and then that ALL of them were bat shit crazy and attracted to assholes and I had NO choice but to sell my soul.
Then the next week I met this AMAZING girl. Smart, pretty, shy, Christian, dorky…everything that get’s me going inside. I treated her like she was just another girl all summer…and she seemed to really like me. Then I fell for her and treated her nicely. She seemed to be losing interest…so then I went back to the asshole thing because my friend told me “the only way to a girl’s heart is by treating her like shit.” She got pissed and doesn’t want to talk to me anymore. She sent me an email and said, “I deserve to date a nice guy.” That was the best thing I have ever read in my entire life. I think the good ones want nice guys in the long run.
You know I don’t think they’re attracted to “assholes” they’re just attracted to guys with confidence who know what they’re doing. I know exactly which pathetic things I said that turned her off. It’s hard to treat a beautiful woman like she’s just okay when you’re into her inside.
@Confused
You are 100% correct. You’re fortunate in that you figured this out for yourself. Next time, find the right balance. Don’t signal your interest too strongly or too early – a woman wants to earn the affection of a man.
Will–You are amazing!!!
Confused–You learned a valuable lesson. Sorry you lost out on the girl. Maybe at some point you tell her you agree that she deserves a nice guy and explain the situation to her.
Great article.Amen!one woman who doesnt see nice guys as a boring pleasers…I want to say that nice guys should become more true and strong.In the end the whole matter hasnt to do only with relationships.It sets one bacic question for all of us(men and women).Can niceness help us to get through life?If we want a better world the answer is yes.We must be true with ourselves.We cannot be nice only when it suits us and then go to jerkdom to get the girls.If any girl doesnt want me for being nice,her lose.Let her go to the bad boy but she must be aware that she may become also bad.
Thanks, George, I agree with you 100%.
Ive been single-and-not-looking for the past several months, choosing so after coming off a series of short (and mostly pathetic) relationships.
Now, I’ve collected myself and’ve decided to give it another go–not without doing some research though. And in reading this article I found a funny coincidence in the way I stumble into these relationships.
Let me paint a picture… I find a pretty lady who really sparks my interest. I immediately let her know that logically we could die happily together; she’s flattered but, despite the apparent sexual chemistry present before I open my mouth, she’s convinced I’m friend material. So, frustrated, I lean back, catch the eyes of a very vulnerable-looking girl, and I say, “what do you want?” and she falls in love.
You can connect the dots. Not caring projects self-worth, as the article states.
@Paul From Town
Yup, that’s exactly right. A woman wants to earn your affection. Don’t make it easy, or we won’t respect you. We’ll think you’re desperate. Instead, we want a man who has options but chooses us.
Interesting discussion. As a current college student in a fraternity who has played all sides of the game and understands every person’s point of view, it is interesting to see what people have to say. BTW Susan I love your dedication and this website blog, it is absolutely amazing. It’s nice to know that there is a blog site such as this where people can discuss underlying issues such as this in a open discussion post. It’s also nice to see there is a lot of diversity among the people who reply which help the issue that is being discussed.
@CollegeFratGuy
Welcome, and thanks for leaving a comment! You would be an awesome addition on the comment threads, so I encourage you to chime in on new posts.
Wow. This is a great reality check for me. I always wondered why I attracted jerks and assholes. Its because Im weak. (because of an asshole!!) I sit and listen to their arrogance. Saying women are crazy and such. I just nod it off. but when they emotionally hurt me, I still end up staying! until I cant take it anymore. (most of them come running back feeling sorry for themselves)
i just dumped an ass. I gave him what he wanted and he still treated me unfairly. got me all interested in the beginning then started being mean eventually. I didnt get it. I wasnt a bitch. Im actually easy going and cool. Most people say i SHOULD have a boyfriend and not do this friend with benefit stuff. but thats what I like right now. I just wish I had a guy who could treat me like a friend too!
maybe I should work on not being so weak? Not taking any bullshit?
@Stacygirl
There are lots of articles here on how to choose guys, what not to put up with, etc. However, they’re generally written from the perspective of wanting a relationship. If you want to keep things casual, there’s no dumping required, because it’s no-strings.
Will thanks for your story man! I am still actively dating. I am definitely going to take your advice and try spreading myself around more and not focusing on one woman even if there is a particular one that I am interested in! I appreciate you telling us your story because, like you, I think I am an attractive dude even though I am 5’7″, I have a good personality etc etc and through your story and lessons I can move forward without making the mistakes myself!
On a side note I have a question? What is a good way to not be too interested through texting? I am interested in a woman I met on a dating website (ok cupid) and we talk daily through text, but I am wondering how to not show too much interest or seem cocky? We are going on a date in January when she is back down this way for school again. Should I let her know that I am doing things with other women, or would that be bad? Thanks. I have been reading posts in here for a long time now. I rarely comment but love reading them. Thanks again Susan for starting this thing!
Stacy,
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I’m mixed up – if you are “friends with benefits,” what can possibly do to treat you unfairly? Is he blabbing about your sex life all over campus? Is he standing you up to sleep with other girls? And how do you “dump” someone you aren’t dating?
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goodguy,
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“On a side note I have a question? What is a good way to not be too interested through texting? I am interested in a woman I met on a dating website (ok cupid) and we talk daily through text, but I am wondering how to not show too much interest or seem cocky?”
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You want a little bit of cocky in text messages. Avoid replying too fast or use strategic delay to affect a push-pull vibe. You can telegraph an affected (i.e. fake) lack of interest by eschewing punctuation, making it look like you didn’t have time to put all the characters in. However, I advise AGAINST misspellings and abbreviations (luv u, lol, etc) because it makes you look uneducated and/or girly. Test your creativity with one-word replies. Roissy has some excellent advice posts on text game if you google it. Use his jumbotron test – if you’re not comfortable with seeing your texts on a public jumbotron you’re sending the wrong texts.
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“We are going on a date in January when she is back down this way for school again. Should I let her know that I am doing things with other women, or would that be bad?”
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If you are casually dating and not going P in V I don’t think other women are any of her business, nor are her other men yours. Roissyites might advocate the preselection effects of letting her know, but I find it mildly rude to tell someone about other dates I’m going on. There are other, more direct ways to show her you can attract other women. If one or both of you wants to go exclusive it obviously becomes an issue.
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“You know I don’t think they’re attracted to “assholes” they’re just attracted to guys with confidence who know what they’re doing.”
.
I call shenanigans. Women are attracted to both. Much as people don’t want to believe it, women are attracted to the dark triad and lust after narcissistic men because of, not in spite of, their self-absorption.
Final items on text messages: you want some cocky because you have no context in a text message – no frame, no tone of voice, no environment, no facial gestures, etc. Just the words and the time you sent them. Also, avoid sarcasm, way too risky that it will be taken the wrong way.
@goodguy
when i say dump, I say hes out of the bed with me. Still friends but not with the benefit thing.
its a toss up with respect and sex. we’re friends. who on occasion have sex. we’re not dating. only thing I dont like is when he doesnt treat me like a friend, and just tries to control me. Just because im giving a guy what he wants, doesnt mean he has the right to treat me like shit.
its hard to find a girl tthat wont get emotionally attached after the sex and I dont do that. I enjoy the occasional sex but I also want to be treated fairly too. Not viewed as some “hoe”
I honestly blame the guy who ruins a good thing. You should treat a friend respectively. Now? we both loss. I told him I deserve better and to go away
but really, if its this hard to find respect out of a FRIEND then I rather have a boyfriend.
“he doesnt treat me like a friend, and just tries to control me”
He caught feelins’ for ya. Maybe you cuddled with him too long after the fwb sex. Sometimes you gotta kick a guy outta bed immediately after or else they get ideas. If you weren’t dating anyone else while you were friends with benefits with him, then he fell into the illusion that you were his girlfriend. Poor guy. He’s obviously not ready or made for the friends with benefits lifestyle.
@ jennifer
I figured that. we were having a great time up til we opened up with another. now hes arrogant, jealous, putting me off when i wanna “have fun” hes very confusing and my opinion dramatic.
I mean i do like him but i dont think i could date him. he has to change his ways and thoughts about women. which i know he can. just scared as hell. I still dont know what to do. I keep on hinting about sex but its always “im busy” or some crap!
This works when you’re younger, but when you’re in your 30′s or 40′s or even older, play time is over. Seventh grade was a long time ago, and they won’t ever change, so don’t waste your time trying. I love a challenge, too, but I do NOT want a project. And that’s just what these guys are. Do you really want one? Find yourself a man who deserves your attention, and these types of jerks are not it.
If a man can’t treat you like a human being, he’s not worth it.
@Kathryn
Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment.
Amen to that.
Sooooo. After having read most of these posts, I’ve come to the conclusion that women love jerks BECAUSE they pursue them so strongly. BUT, women also love men who ignore them because then they’ll feel their affection and attention is earned. Sooo, it’s possible to be a nice guy and pursue women AND it’s possible to be a jerk and ignore women. It’s possible to be a jerk and pursue women and be a nice guy and ignore women. WOMEN! Ha! So confusing.
I know it’s an over simplification. Things aren’t that black and white. But if I just stepped out of a cave, that’s the conclusion I would come to, thus crawling back in my cave.
@parabola
Women love jerks not because they pursue them, but because they can take them or leave them. Mostly, jerks ignore women, especially once they’ve gotten what they came for. Nice guys would do well do get some game and know when to step back, ignore a woman, and watch her try harder.
I read this thread, lots of good stuff here, Susan nice blog, awesome patience in your responses. I’m sorry but there were a few female posters in this thread that I just wanted to laugh at, just too typical. Sorry.
Rough question, unanswerable. Its a looks thing, either you have it, or you don’t, and body type determines weight so much that there is no magic number. Are you petite or “big boned”? Know what I mean? My girlfriend is gorgeous and like 145Ibs. She is pretty tall and looks great, but if she was petite that would be way too heavy.
Sorry but I think is a sad answer. Not to pick on you but, really, did you miss the boat on this? You said nothing about nice guys and instead indicated you will make the bad boy player have to try harder next time. lol.
Wow is also my reaction. Wow. Seriously how is this even possible. Please someone tell me.
Totally wrong, and I mean tooootally. Check the poster in this thread who talked about being raised by women’s rights conscious mother. You obviously had a different upbringing, because I can tell you from personal experience, if your childhood was like that, you would not think the “nice guy routine” is a player tactic. wow. Here is a refresher:
Truth, can’t be argued with, except if she is also really inexperienced, which is increasingly unlikely. Unfortunately I have met many girls who lost their virginity at 14 (wow what the hell). Way, way too low. Its almost scary IMO. I bet the next few generations, being bred on gangsta booty pop music and basically straight up hardcore porn on cable television, are definitely pushing that number lower.
I think you are on the money with this, but you need to be WAY more descript. This is like a hopelessly insufficient and equally useless teaser. Like, write an article on it! When you say to a nice guy “know when to step back” that means nothing to them, and is also contextual. What kind of situation are you talking about? Specific non-trivial examples would definitely be in order I think, otherwise it is not possible to visualize what you just suggested here.
Also, did you really mean to use the word “ignore”? Ignoring someone is pretty unforgiving. Maybe you meant maybe…. more shallow and aloof? Or did you mean ignore? And if you did, how and when exactly do you think you would do that? How do you ignore someone strategically?
The point is nice guys don’t understand that, remember, they’re nice. It should be obvious that ignoring a woman whom a man likes, especially if that man genuinely respects women and is not overly selfish, is vastly unintuitive and unnatural for them. That is why this entire Nice Guy situation exists in the first place.
A woman friend told me recently that I should ignore women when they’re talking to me and I’d get more girl attention. I couldn’t believe it. She said that, while they’re talking to me, I should look away and pretend to be uninterested.
Sorry to say ladies but I did it and it really worked like a charm. The reality is that I’d love to chat with women but it doesn’t work. For some reason they think if you listen you’re “desperate”.
It’s wayyyy too much work to attract a girl, i’d just be myself which is a nice guy by the way and if she doesn’t like it then she can leave, personally i just ignore girls since the work involved is too great and i don’t have the time for this frankly. i’m pretty cocky and sarcastic but not a jerk i feel that if anyone is a jerk (no matter what the gender is) i really really hate people like this and think you should just be yourself instead of pretending to be someone you aren’t.
It seems that the aim of many girls (i am certain, because i have asked) is that they want to have sex “as much as they can” with guys they fancy while they are young, and the nice guys are rejected & kept in the friends zone for a rainy day (perhaps the righ time). When those girls reach a point that they had enough d**k or old enough, then they feel like marriage andddd the nice guy is “the” option (so the girl had “”all”" the sex and now left dry for mr. nice guy)..personally, i think if girls do that then they should accept all nice guys to change their ways to become players…it doesn’t take much with the right information and guidance, but is it necessary?, from what i see every day, i think so…if being bad is the only thing that works then ladies shouldn’t expect being loves for more than a week, cos either your nice or a jerk, sex is needed (women married to a 30 yr old guy with no experience will cheat and he will continue to be the loser).
ohh shit one more thing…nice guys don’t ignore the girls they like…they would LOVE to chat to them but they are shy and they are worried they might be rejected and so they take so long they girl gets a jerk.
@Marciano
I’m afraid you are correct. Many good men refuse to settle down with a woman who “had her fun” with a bunch of more dominant guys when they were young. I encourage you to do the same. Reward a woman who controlled her impulses and held out for a man of character.
Also, learn about Game to get all the social dominance you’ll need to attract women. You don’t need to be a jerk, but you must be perceived as strong and dominant.
Another problem comes up.
why does it seem that I get treated unfairly by a guy but he treats another girl like a queen? a girl thats takeen and clearly wants to stay friends, but he has convos with her that i WISH we would have.. this is the 3rd time in a row this happened to me and why i wont date anyone. ill get screwed over. i dont get why either.
my friend whos a guy. told me to play hard to get and the guy will be all over me. (this is his friend too)
so thats what im gonna do i guess. i hate mind games and games in general but if that what it takes to spark up a jerks interests, ill play it
@Stacygirl
It does sound like the guy was going specifically for a girl he couldn’t have. All people appreciate something that is hard to get. It implies that it’s more valuable. Try it out, but instead of playing mind games, be hard to get. Don’t give your heart (or body!) away until you’ve got a guy having the kind of convos with you that you really want.
i just screwed myself with guys i really liked. i gave in too soon and i now know why they leave me to go with another. they lose the respect. i did it ever since my first relationship and im realizing it at 21.. i could never open up to anyone i dated. just did the friends w benefits and believed what i wanted to hear. i acted not like the real me
@ Stacygirl:
FwB is gonna screw most girls up, at least you’ve had the sense to realize that it’s not something that works for you.
When you say “give in too soon”, though…I don’t really know the personal circumstances with your situation, but the truth is that a guy will know whether or not he wants a relationship before he gets involved with you, and however awesome you might be, it will still be irrelevant if he’s not looking for a relationship in the first place. The best you can do – as Susan has said – is to not get invested unless it looks like he’s reciprocating the way you want him to.
giving in meaning ok they said they dont wanna date ever again,
so i give up on trying. even tho the feelings are still lingering.
im just sick of being hurt, alone and guys tellin me they dont view me as dating material
@Stacygirl
You’re young and there is no reason in the world why you should keep doing the thing that’s never worked for you. Start acting like the real you. Know that this will mean less attention from guys, but that’s OK because it protects you from players and sends a message that you’re in it for the relationship, not the short-term validation. It’s fair to tell a man that you won’t have sex until you know him and trust him. Any man who doesn’t stick around is in it for the wrong reasons.
I’ve been back and forth with the whole thing. I use to be a real prick, and pretty self centered, and use to get a lot of girls interested in me (as a result of that I guess). In more recent years I’ve really focused on trying not to be like that so that I can have a meaningful relationship, and not just some shallow girl who has no clue, Its really hard due to the fact that it is much easier to pick up girls by being a “bad a$$” than it is being a sweet guy. What makes it even more interesting is various girls I’ve met who are really nice, intelligent, people, but still go after the bad boys. I think for guys it really is learning to be a “bad boy” who still has qualities of a “nice guy” at the same time. Don’t loose your bad boy image, but treat a girl right at the same time.
From the desk of a “nice guy”:
My first girlfriend (my first everything) would often burn me with a cigarette if I was not paying attention to her. She maintained that had I been paying “proper” attention to her she would not have been able burn me (The logic is sound). That relationship scarred me (pun intended).
My second girlfriend (fiancé) of 5 years had an infatuation with the “Bad Boys”, and little respect for monogamy. I had forgiven 1 indiscretion (she swore it would never happen again). The second time I just could not take. I’m sure there were others. The decision to end the relationship was appropriate, it was painful. It was not a clean parting of ways. It was difficult not to believe that it was a failing on my part, that I was not man enough and so on. The black-box from that wreck to a long while to recover.
What started as an investigation into some interactions with a girl, for who I have some interest. Lead to a sort of ad-hoc differential diagnostic of my behaviors. Which in turn lead me here.
I have been reading many of the discussions here. On the whole, even the things I disagree with are well thought out, possessed of merit, and worth consideration. For that I must thank you all.
I have been assessing myself, and attempting to do so from a position of strength ( recognizing the positive and negative in a way that allows me to not be overwhelmed by hubris, or despair). I am sharing this with you, as I would like your opinions.
I am very (very) Left brained, and more than a touch autistic. I mention this, not to engender sympathy, rather to provide a point of reference.
In general conversation, you probably would not be able to tell that I am consciously considering your non-verbal cues (NVC). I am fair at deciphering them, unfortunately I have to be aware that we are engaged in an exchange during which deciphering NVC’s is necessary (I usually do not realize that this is the case until after the exchange has taken place).
I am socially awkward, my own NVC’s are often wrong, for example I shake my head ‘no’ when I mean to nod ‘yes’. In certain situations, I am aware that NVC’s are to be monitored. However, similar to translating a language in which you are not fluent, this is taxing, so I do not do this constantly. I am uncomfortable with new people as many do not understand me. I am most uncomfortable around women.
UNLESS it is in my environs (to be clear I’m still socially awkward but it does not seem to matter). If I am somewhere where I am comfortable, I am king. Work, home, friends houses, there I win. Conversations are productive, women are attentive (and there is much rejoicing (YaY)). This is where all of the positive encounters I have had have occurred (well, not work so much, I view romantic relations in the workplace as a conflict of interests). I have not been successful transitioning from encounter to relationship. IRL a woman would have to beat me with the cluebat before I got it.
Like Aquaman, in my element I’m a super-hero. Outside of it, I’m just a guy who can talk to fish.
(I apologize for the length of this post, it has been the steadily growing aggregate of much of what I’ve read here. )
yeah nice guys may be boring and predictable but they know how to raise a family! it’s a shame when responsibility isn’t a turn on for women anymore..
@John
” it’s a shame when responsibility isn’t a turn on for women anymore..”
I don’t know if responsibility was ever a turn-on. However, it seems that as a virtue (from the perspective of mate selection), responsibility is not given the priority it once had.
That being said, I do not believe being irresponsible is considered a turn-on. Although there does seem to be a correlation between current relationship priorities and irresponsibility. I don’t know it is necessarily a causal one (it’s possible there is no correlation at all).
I find it interesting that the word responsible is currently used almost entirely in negative context (eg. “The person responsible for (terrible thing) …” not “The person responsible for (wonderful thing) …”). Since language both influences and reflects culture, is there now a negative connotation to being described as “responsible”?
responsibility has nothing to do with girls not liking nice guys. nice guys need not to be so clingy and try too hard. thats why i go for the assholes. one, they dont bother me all the time. two. they earn my attention faster. and three they are beyond confused little people and it amuses me.
someday im gonna meet a nice jerk. guys have to have a balance
in reality, assholes think they can be jerks to girls but they really cant (unless your weak minded) the ones who say oh i dont need you. i can get someone else! and you really dont bother with them, guess whos gonna be calling you back after a few days? the asshole. i did it, and it happened. really easy to break, honestly.
@ENQ
Regardless of where you are on the autism scale, you’re obviously smart, thoughtful and articulate. And oh yeah, good looking. You wouldn’t have had success with women with awkward social skills if you were not very attractive. So you’ve got that going for you.
I encourage you to read as much as you can about female psychology. This blog is a good place to start – it’s my stock and trade. Once you understand how women think, what triggers sexual attraction, how to sustain it, in theory, then you can begin to interact with this knowledge in place.
I appreciate that reading NVCs is exhausting and difficult – but will be especially necessary in all early interactions. Once you get a read on someone, does it get easier for you to manage the back and forth? Women dig the brooding loner archetype, so I think you can make that work for you.
You don’t say why you can’t move from encounter to relationship. Whether it’s an issue of confidence, or having been scarred (btw, your two significant girlfriends both sound terrible), or finding that the communication is just really difficult.
@Susan Walsh
“… This blog is a good place to start – it’s my stock and trade. …”
I am in complete agreement with you. I had read many of your threads prior to my first post. You have fostered an eclectic (and active) community here. As such, a wide variety of views are presented (often with links to other articles) making it an exellent resource. It is difficult to keep discussions on such sensitive topics from rapidly devolving into a “flame-war”. So thank you.
“… understand how women think, what triggers sexual attraction, how to sustain it, in theory …”
Reverse engineering female dating behaviors (writing it that way makes me smile. In a cue the lightning and get ready for the “it’s alive …” speech sort of way). I am working on it.
“… Once you get a read on someone, does it get easier for you to manage the back and forth?”
“… You don’t say why you can’t move from encounter to relationship. …”
I had to consider these things for a while prior to responding. Yes, the back and forth becomes much easier over time. It is the “over time” part that I seem to get stuck on. I have no doubt that confidence and prior relationship issues are part of the problem. Communication issues abound, that seems to be at the core of Most of the discussions here. So if I were concerned about it before coming here, I can now rest confidant in the fact that she is likely as confused as I am.
In the “it’s a fight …” thread I think you touched upon part of the issue. The positive encounters I refer to, in many cases, did not involve sex (although I am fairly sure they could have). When there was casual sex involved, it was always clear that sex was all she wanted. The encounters that did not involve sex usually involved me being unsure of what she wanted. Did she want sex or a relationship? neither? It couldn’t possibly be both. I was under the impression that if you “hooked-up”, you were (in effect) precluding a relationship. That a woman would view any further interactions as merely a pretense for more sex, and not a genuine overture of romantic intent. If she intimated that she would like a relationship, then I interpreted everything … wrong, very wrong … and received the LJBF talk more than I care to recount. It occurs to me as I am writing this that if I did not pursue her when she was making herself available to me in the manner in which she was making herself available then I was telling her LJBF, and possibly insulting her.
@ENQ
Not at all! Many women who really want the relationship will hook up as a means of getting it. If you are good looking, this is even more likely to occur, because women will perceive that you have options and will be unlikely to settle down with one woman. They’ll try to lure you in with early sex. Obviously there are some women who only want sex, but in my experience they are a smallish minority.
I’m not sure what you mean here. If she wanted a relationship, why would she LJBF you?
I’m sure this was true in at least some cases. I wouldn’t worry about insulting women – she is making an adult decision to have sex or not, and you are not responsible for her choices. We do reject people sometimes and it’s insulting perhaps, but also unavoidable, as long as you don’t lead them on.
When you are attracted to a woman, start slow and escalate. If you have difficulty reading subtle cues than come right out and ask her what she wants. Or try telling her directly that you want her – this is dominant. If you want to take it slow and wait to have sex, then you will certainly need to give positive feedback and display your interest. My guess is that you’ll need a woman who is fairly direct and assertive. It’s just going to be too difficult for you to read a woman who is very guarded in her feelings and actions.
@Susan
ENQ called me up and started asking questions about why we didn’t go out after our hook up. He never says hook up, or alpha, or any of that pickup BS, so I knew something was up. I took a look at what he was so amped up about. I think it’s ok. It’s kinda dear Abby, and I can see diggin the Yohimi guy.
This is ENQ. Kinda weird, hes bald and good at it, he’s built like a linebacker, sounds like an audio book, refined to a fault, dresses formally ALL THE TIME!! And he smells F’N FANTASTIC. You know when he’s there, I mean you want to be his friend. You feel safe and special, even my husband feels that way. But, he’s naive, he takes everything you say at face value. So you have to be very specific. He’s delicate. His world is orderly. Same food, same time, same place, same movies on repeat.
He understands you, but I can guarantee he doesn’t get it.
@ENQ
I’m not tryng to hurt you love. I tried to explain this on the phone. Your sooo special, and I love you to death. You’re hyper focused, and I’m afraid it’ll get you hurt.
I Know that I am a nice guy with some bad boy tendencies. I do ignore women but only the ones I like not because I’m an asshole but because I am shy. I have been hurt before who hasn’t that’s why I keep them at arm’s length and so I never get to close to them, that is why I believe I have some bad boy tendencies.
I’m gonna hang out w this guy I like and he’s having a couple friends over. I was hoping it’ll just be me and him. Since its like the first time we hungut. I feel like I’m put in the friend zone. And ill be the only girl there which will make me rally shy. I asked him a month ago if he wanted to ever date and he said no. Then I stopped talking to him and now he wants to hang when before he was avoiding it. But I still feel like im in the zone:/
After going through the experiences of dating women and also learning about myself, both genders can be very confused about what we really want until we mature. Men do not want a woman who is so nice and neither do men. It is not because it is a turn-off or that its boring. We all have desires of what we want a mate to look like, to be and to have certain qualities that attracts us. However, that person seems to be defined as the perfect person for us. There is no perfect person and until we grow to a certain maturity to understand ourselves, learn from our mistakes and be real about who we are and what we want – we will continuously get caught-up in these games with relationships. I am a male and I too have been hurt by women because I am a nice guy – but realistically I am not as nice as they think I am. When getting to know someone and those funny feelings of being in love fades away – the real person comes out and their is a great chance that the woman may not see that nice man anymore but see a side that challenges her and enables her to change her mind about pursuing a further relationship. But, their is a flip side to that coin. I could change as well when I see a different side in her and rather find someone else since the feelings of wanting her is gone. I believe if anyone is serious about finding the right person that is suitable for them they must be patient and wait – it may be frustrating but in that period you learn a lot about yourself and what you want. You create standards of what you want in a person and really know how to love that person. Love is not about how you feel it is what you do. Kindness, forgiveness, patience, and giving. I am not there yet but I am growing and I believe that when we mature and learn more about ourselves and what is good for us and what is not – these issues with relationships will not effect you at all. We all know the game and many still deal with the same issues. Get to know yourself and be happy in life with yourself and that person will show-up at the right time. Ignore the people who still not sure of themselves – test the waters and enjoy relationships without throwing your heart into every pretty face. Let them fall in love with you and you choose to make them the one for you. Just some advice to share from what I have learned from being the nice guy that girls do not like.
Does ANYONE see the hypocrisy and unfiarness in this? can you read what all of these men and women are saying? I was drummed out of this “game” years ago
since I am a “loser”, and nice guy who was unable (unwilling?) to change into the
required PUA . I do not feel entitled to anything (maybe some honesty?) and am
headed for the Philippines where a young lady says that she wants to dance
with me (no matter how nice I am?).You “winners” can have this “game”, as
it was just not for me.
Nobody likes being treated like Ish unless they’re kinky or crazy. Plenty of sane women look for sane men, just more men have been raised to take advantage of EVERYTHING, including their looks, charm, etc. or just the plain attention of a woman and use it, or at least those men are more likely to act on it, given the opportunity and more of them are going to think of any woman in the room as an opportunity. Make sense?
PS: This article didn’t really address the tendencies of men to ignore the girl they like, except in relation to douchebags. “nice” guys to the SAME thing and then are POed when the girl they like went out with someone else and they want to know why. Usually, they ignore the obvious: Hey, gab-ehcuod, HE asked. YOU didn’t.
I, on the other hand, tend to look for guys who seem nice and get treated like sh*t anyway, some of them doing it in their own little unique, smothering, yet arrogant way, but then I got the whole face-reading post backward, too. Guys with big eyes and open faces look nice to me. Guys with small foreheads, squinty eyes look scowly and aggressive, not nice, to me, so whatever.
I have NEVER EVER been hurt by an fwb or by an actual nice guy. Just women and men who lied about who they were, what they wanted, and tried to tell me I was crazy for expecting to have my boundaries respected, no matter *what* they were. Basically, it’ people who are looking for a one-sided pseudo-relationship set-up and tried to act like I was insecure to want more or to want *appropriate* level of attention and time invested (less). basically, it is *selfish people* who hurt others, not hookups, and they usually do it intentionally, and even when they want a relationship.
VJ, I agree with most of your post especially with the theme that people are having unrealistic expectations. But, you mentioned that “Grandma & great Grandma might have been able to do it w/o any degrees, graduate or otherwise, and dealing with much smaller effective population sizes, (due to natural transportation limitations).” I feel that having a smaller pool of men was an advantage rather than a limitation. In the book “The Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less”, Schwartz noted that having more choices lead to more dissatisfaction among shoppers (his book was dealing with consumers in markets). But, his theory can be applied to women since they’re ultimately “shopping” for men.
Maybe in our grandparents’ days having a generous, kind, and loyal men is enough. Perhaps they were boring or short but given the smaller pool (and the perceived lack of alternatives) the women picked the “nice guys”.
However, given the freedom to choose, modern women have felt the need to pick the “perfect” guy. Hence, they’d dump their boyfriends at the slightest inkling of any imperfections or an encounter with someone “better”.
What’s interesting is that when they encounter a “boring” guy, they dump him thinking that they deserve an exciting boyfriend and that making their current guy exciting would be too much work. However, they have a strong desire to “fix” jerks. Why don’t they spend that kind of effort into making the nice guy more exciting?
Ok one thing I think completely pi**es men off is when women think that “nice guys are boring and predictable.” BS!!!! Women are SO WRONG with that statement. The statement “nice guys are boring and predictable.” Are the nerds/scientists they are the boring and predictable type not the so called “nice guys” and also why is it women automatically just assume that nice guys don’t or can’t have the a-hole/d-bag side to them. Also women define boring as they see it in men? Like what? Is it like we have our stable jobs, bought or in the process of buying our house, graduated college, live on our own, never had to depend on their parents after high school?? Is that women’s definition of boring? If so that’s just piratical, smart and being an adult. At the same time a lot of nice guys like to go out drink and do a lot of the same things the d-bags, a-holes like to do but “nice guys” don’t carry the d-bag, a-hole attitude but can definitely have the same attributes of the d-bag, ah-holes.
It’s funny how a lot of women correlate nice men as not having any confidence. That’s such BS!! “You know I don’t think they’re attracted to “assholes” they’re just attracted to guys with confidence who know what they’re doing. I know exactly which pathetic things I said that turned her off. It’s hard to treat a beautiful woman like she’s just okay when you’re into her inside.” Yes women like men with confidence but at the same time the d-bags/a-holes/losers are not even confident especially with like jobs, education etc that’s why they are d-bags/a-holes/losers cause they are actually so unsure of themselves there usually not that successful in life, they are bums, thugs and low lifes. The confident ones are the so called “nice guys” we have our shi* together, generally educated, come from good families, have great stable jobs, own or in the process of buying our own home.
please watch this, it’s ironically funny..nice guys turning into a jerk . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfeys7Jfnx8
@erica
That video is awesome, I’m going to post it on the front page!
The issue that I face as a guy is the contradictory nature of being a “nice guy”. If you are a nice guy and have to wait to find girl, who has wasted time on bad guys, you are essentially displaying the same low self-esteem issues, because you deserve better than what you are getting. The person that you eventually end up with will most likely ignore you until they are done with the douchebags. So, by getting with women later in life who have been with douchy guys, no matter how great of a girl they are, you are essentially showing the same low self-esteem issues. So then, how can you respect yourself? Or, should you compromise your self-respect to be happy, which then means you are betraying yourself?
I’m the guy that always listens to and eventually solves the problems that girls and guys alike bring to me. I’m the guy that tells the guy getting rapey to back off the girl that just ripped out beard hair and bit me three times because I took my friend’s cigarette back, and when he doesn’t kicks him out and walk her and her friend to her car. I take care of people and myself. I take responsibility seriously and know how to cook, clean, and everything else. I also always put the seat down.
I’m also the guy that is serially abused by women, because I’m not a bad guy. I won’t ignore a girl and if I like a girl, I am also genuinely interested in who they are. I try to do good and expect similar actions from other people. I don’t care if a girl doesn’t reciprocate my feelings, but it’d be nice to see them actually date decent guys.
I suppose my issue is: if I maintain that mindset that women will find me attractive later, which may be true, I’m not having self-respect because I’m second-hand goods that is only good because what she wanted isn’t what she wants now. So I am treated shitty and used, until women miraculously realize that they’ve made bad decisions and I should welcome them back and be endlessly forgiving because I don’t want to be alone?
I’m sure by the time I’m thirty (I’m 21 now) that I’ll have changed my mind, but I’d prefer to have some kind of self-respect and just stay single. It is always the advice given out to women who date douches (“Have some respect for yourself. You’re better than him”). Why is the same advice not directed towards nice guys? At this point, I’m not worried about being alone right now; I’m just tired of hearing about women complain about bad guys, when there is a good guy they are ignoring and using behind the situation.
I’m not going to switch to being a douchebag, but I’m done.
I’ve been a jerk to a T. it didn’t get me anywhere with women. Why must I be the exception???
sounds like you prey on girls with daddy issues, who let themselves be taken advantage of by guys who don’t treat them right /:P
Susan, BRILLIANT summation!!!! Even more evolved explanations for why women go for jerks. And THANK you for explaining that these guys do, indeed, go for the weaker.
I guess my issue with your statement is using preying. If you like a girl that has daddy issues, are you immediately preying on that girl? If that girl uses guys that actually care about them despite their daddy issues, leading them on, and then dating douchebags, is the guy preying, or is the girl preying, or both?
Maybe you are just assuming that because I fix problems for people they have daddy issues? That I am hoping to be with them by fulfilling that role? Instead of assuming, that I just help fix problems for everyone I care about, and it is entirely frustrating to watch someone destroy their lives, especially when you are romantically interested and they are destroying their lives with a douche.
In actuality, I don’t “prey” on girls with daddy issues, outside the realm of daddy issues that all girls have. I generally like girls with a good relationship with their fathers. It’s not a criteria, but I tend to find out that they do.
If it were actually preying on these girls with daddy issues, I would get something out of it or hope to. I don’t get anything out of it and learned years ago that there is nothing to get out of it. I don’t go after women with daddy issues, and haven’t since freshman year in high school 8 years ago.
@michelle
huh? i said that being a jerk doesn’t work. what daddy issues? how do i know what her issues are? the point is, i’m a jerk and it don’t work.
This stuff sucks from a guys perspective. Personally I’m in the middle of the spectrum on this issue but definitely lean towards the nice guy mentality…I take it as a sign that I have principles but I also lose faith from time to time in that I feel that girls don’t give an ounce of a shit about the massive amount of thought I put into things and I might never be able to be happy if I act like myself.
I’m 23 now, haven’t had a real girlfriend for a while, and am generally dissatisfied with how shallow and pathetic girls my age are…I thought we (guys) were supposed to be the shallow ones, and girls had more discerning characteristics and bigger hearts and shit but most days I grow more confident that girls are just as shallow as guys. Like how many times I’ve been thrown aside for a guy that is taller than me or better looking than me…I get it ya know its how life is but man what a fucking bummer. The trashiest part about this is that I assume that most girls will take a guy with 0 class who blatantly does not give a shit about her (but is more physically attractive) over a guy who really cares and shows it by doing all the right things (but avg looking). Is this really what it comes down to?
@Pete
It’s more about dominance than looks for guys. This is something it’s important for guys to understand. A guy of average looks who ignores a girl will get further than a guy who’s better looking but puts her on a pedestal. This is well worth learning about – Game.
Thanks for the tip Susan. I am looking to maintain my values/integrity but need to get better with women. In the past I’ve been alpha and beta at different times with different groups of people, although I really don’t like characterizing my behavior in those terms. I’ve gone through periods where girls would flock to me and other times when they seemed to avoid me like the plague..which has been confusing to endure..right now I’m somewhere in the middle but have been struggling in the short term mating scenarios (out at bars, clubs, etc) though I am really looking to lock up a solid girl for an LTR b/c being a player is not very appealing to me. My father is a serial womanizer who damaged my mother severely (emotionally) and made life hell for his children. I don’t want to be like him so that has lead me towards too much of a nice-guy approach..which has brought mixed results. I need to figure out something that works for me. What kind of strategy would you recommend I work on cultivating to help resolve these issues and what type of girl should I be looking for so I know I can trust her?
Pete, you’re a very good guy (and I don’t mean “nice” guy because you’re blunt and honest). Never give up your values; look for worthy women, treat them well, and carry yourself and speak with confidence; this attracts women. Stick to Susan’s blog though, many game sites have manure mixed with the soil.
I want to get an insight to this situation I’m in, i told this girl i liked her, we’ve met around 2 months ago, but she’s never said no to having a relationship with me, she wants to be good friends and when i said there’s no chance of you being my girlfriend she didn’t like that idea, is this her being indecisive? she said she went into her previous relationships too fast and is worried she’ll make the same mistakes. I’ve been brought up with one rule, to care for the ones i love, it may seem stupid but that’s who i am. Every girl i ever liked turned me down with the line “your a nice a guy but i see you as a friend” and i’m sick and tired of being the one off the ledge.
Do nice people ever find each other or do we have to turn into jerks to get attention, I’ve been ignoring her lately and she never speaks to me only sometimes in person. Should i pursue with this girl, i know she’s an attention seeker but is it worth pursuing someone that is indecisive and just wants to have fun. The group we hang out in likes to go out often say 4 times a week, so I do see her quite often but she’s a party girl and seek attention byfar everywhere we go.
I wrote this in light this game is over
all conversations have stopped between us
you don’t deserve my love or affection
your mind is illogical and your an attention seeker
you can’t decide if you want it or not
but i know me better
i don’t have to be sorry for liking you
now this period of time i’m goin to ignore you
not because i don’t like you
because even if u do ever make up ur mind
and somewhat like me like i do to you
makin a person wait, is never worth the wait itself
there’s plenty of fish in the sea
if not you there are many
and i will continue to search for my own
The lady says that she gave a “nice guy” a chance, by taking a chance on
actually being treated with respect by a man. That says volumes about this
entirely, stupid game!
@Michael
I think you’ve got your head on straight. You are right to be wary when she is a party girl who seeks a lot of male attention. I like your poem a lot. It terms of how to play, I would sit back, way back, and wait for her to do all the work. But keep the red flag in mind.
Games are for children.
If a female wants games let her buy a romantic book or movie from amazon instead of being her game and dont exepect that guys will be forever with her cause its just a Game after : P.I m so tired of these girls.Hopefully i m having a lot of fun and good time with decent girls who know what they want without playing the fool.For the rest of the girls i m gonna say:MATURE UP.You are not the drama princesses whatever your friends or parents may say.
Hi Susan,
Thank you for this blog. I guess i can also comments and express my experiences. I guess we all have what i called three aspects to our personality. The God>>Saviour,
The Hero>>Nice guy and the devil>>The asshole. We need to balance the three types. Regarding the nice guys, women can’t feel attraction to the nice guy. Once they have been done “enjoying life or partying” they reach out the nice guy for long term relationship. What a nice way to use men? Men are becoming smarter now especially the nice guys, like me, who are becoming choosy and discerning not to accept non-sense? I believe that is the reason women are getting frustrated, cos they are how come this guy is able to see through me? This is the insecurity women are going through.
I love nice guys, always have. My first two boyfriends were very much so. Parted ways with one because of college and the other asked me to marry him but at 20 I was definitely not ready. I fell into a pattern of unavailable men…some nice some jerks. I have taken myself off the market for the last 4 years to the dismay of my Gram and every other female relative b/c I am fast approaching 35. I believe that I am experienced, happy with myself and ready. I have alot of love to give, I haven’t been sleeping around…in fact I have not had sex (on purpose) since 2008.
Recently an old flame came into my life and he is doing this hot and cold thing, its confusing and hurts. I asked him about it, he says he’s just been busy with work, etc. I decided that this time (the third time) I will just move on. He left a voicemail today. I will not call back. What I will do is send him an email to explain why I will not be calling him. I don’t have to, just want a clean break. I expect he will keep communicating since the “chase” is back on, however I am not interested in playing games…never was much good at them anyway.
@lovelost
Thanks for your comment and your kind words. Good for you for becoming choosy. Do not put up with any crap from women! They will respect you for it.
Hahaha, let me re-phrase, Since the beginning of 2008 I have decided not to have sex (on purpose or accidentally, lol) unless I was in love, which I haven’t been.
Hello Susan,
Sitting here wondering why it is I have to tell myself not to call after I have already decided I wouldn’t. Its just irritating. Like trying not to scratch a mosquito bite, ya know!?
Hey there Susan! I stumbled upon this post, and it’s been entertaining reading the comments from top to bottom, and I wanna give my opinion on the situation. I am a 19 year old male, and I am a pro at psychology…..but an extreme novice at relationships (never been on a date, never kissed, never danced with someone, never had a girlfriend, and OBVIOUSLY never had sex) I do consider myself to be a nice guy. I respect guys and girls the same, wouldn’t DARE hit a girl, I help everyone all the time, I’m there for my friends, BUT I do know how to stand up for myself. I love being myself, and couldn’t ever imagine being anyone else. But since I’ve been sitting on the sidelines for 6 years, I noticed that my fellow nice guys are kinda screwed. It’s like an infinite madness loop! From what has happened to me in my life so far, I have little experience with the other sex, no matter how much I try to communicate with them. They end up picking ANY other guy besides me, no matter how much OR how little I talk to them. That means, at the end of the day, I’ve still got no experience with a girl besides small talk. I’m not going to ramble about “How much of a catch they’d see I was , if only ONE girl would notice me!”, but I will say that I’d try my hardest to make her happy. Problem is, there’s a HUGE gap between small talk and boyfriend/girlfriend status. Since I keep getting passed up, I can’t get the experience to fill in that gap. I know I’m still young, but I still find myself worrying that I’m gonna be alone for the rest of my life… and it DOES NOT FEEL GOOD AT ALL!!
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