Are You Dating a Narcissist?
Caravaggio's Narcissus
Narcissus in Greek mythology is a hero, renowned for his beauty. He is exceptionally cruel, in that he disdains those who love him. As divine punishment he falls in love with a reflection in a pool, not realizing it is his own, and perishes there, not being able to leave the beauty of his own reflection.
In The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement by Jean Twenge and Keith Campbell, narcissism is defined as a very positive and inflated view of the self. Twenge and Campbell make the argument that narcissism is rampant, causing depression and loneliness as it spreads throughout our culture. I’ll reserve judgment on the question of the pervasiveness of narcissism – I know many young people, and very few meet the definition, in my view.
What I found most interesting about the book was the discussion around narcissism and dating. Most of the people you get involved with will fall far short of this full-blown personality disorder, but there are definitely people out there who have unjustifiably high self-esteem, and they are terrible relationship risks.
What is a narcissist?
- Approximately 1% of the population is narcissistic.
- 75% of narcissists are men.
- Narcissism is a psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
- A narcissist sees his life as a movie or dramatic story in which he has the starring role. He creates a character, and assimilates the emotions of that character.
- Narcissists appear to have emotions, feelings, empathy; they cry, laugh, feel your pain, etc, but none of this is real. They don’t feel it. It’s not linked to anything internal. They’re crying at the funeral, for sure, but on the inside they’re wondering why it doesn’t hurt as much as they think it should.
- They are extremely vain.
- They are often very outgoing, with a “larger than life” personality. They are great fun in social situations, which makes them popular.
- Hurting a narcissist does not cause him to feel sadness. You can only make a narcissist feel rage.
Hooking up is perfect for narcissists:
- Since hooking up is about what you want, rather than what the other person wants, it’s the perfect sexual experience for a narcissist.
- Hookups move the focus of sexual relationships away from the whole person by emphasizing physical attractiveness.
- Because physical intimacy precedes emotional involvement, it’s difficult to scope out the emotional character of a guy before hooking up.
- Narcissists worry about “settling,” and are always on the lookout for something better. Hooking up is the perfect framework for that because no one finds it particularly unusual or troubling if a guy doesn’t want a relationship, but prefers to always be hooking up with someone new.
What are narcissists like in relationships?
- They are exciting, excelling at the fun and novel stage of a new relationship.
- They enjoy the passion of new love, but do not develop feelings of caring as the relationship progresses.
- They are all about feeding the ego; always their own, but sometimes yours too.
- They seek partners who make them look and feel powerful, special, admired, attractive, and important.
- They are indifferent to the core qualities of healthy relationships: real love, caring, commitment and loyalty.
- Narcissists exhibit the same qualities at work and among friends, but their true character is more obvious in romantic relationships, because there are fewer rules for how to behave, and because someone who has fallen for a narcissist will often put up with a great deal that others would not tolerate.
- Narcissists don’t feel guilt, based on an objective right and wrong. They feel shame, based on exposure. When they get caught, their answer is always the same: “Wait, that’s not really who I am…”
- Narcissists regard relationships as interchangeable. If you do not fuel the needed status and self-esteem, he will quickly find another relationship that is more rewarding.
- Narcissists play games:
- They are dishonest.
- They give mixed signals, running hot and cold.
- They play people against one another.
- They avoid real commitment.
Recently I wrote about the Principle of Least Interest. This is one of the narcissist’s favorite games. They continuously seek to demonstrate that they care less than the other party, thereby claiming the upper hand.
- Narcissists are unable to receive criticism of any kind, often reacting with denial and abuse, sometimes even rage. Narcissists become hostile and defensive very quickly when they feel cornered by criticism.
- Narcissists get angry and aggressive when they feel that their freedom is restricted, so pressuring them for a commitment often causes them to “flip out.”
- Narcissists can’t cope with rejection, and will avoid allowing someone else to end the relationship at all costs. Often those dating a narcissist will feel better when he refuses to let go, interpreting his desperation to stay in the relationship as a sign of real “deep down” caring. In fact, it’s about pride and ownership. Narcissists can’t tolerate someone else calling the shots, robbing them of their power.
Why do women date narcissists?
Women date narcissists for the same reasons they date jerks, frequently forcing nice guys into last place. We want it all. We want the challenge and the magic passion with a guy who has confidence, charisma and a great sense of fun. But we also want deep caring, with intimacy and commitment. Narcissists deliver big on the magic, and come up empty on the caring. They save the bad stuff for later.By the time you realize that, you’re often in pretty deep, addicted to that bad, bad boy.
Dating a narcissist is dangerous, potentially destroying your ability to have a normal relationship in future:
- People who have been burned by narcissists are understandably wary and find it difficult to trust others.
- They also lose trust in themselves, feeling stupid for not having realized his true character.
- Victims of narcissists spend a lot of time wondering how they got they way, and rehashing nearly all of their interactions to identify the warning signs they missed the first time around.
What is the best way to avoid a narcissist?
- Make an effort to identify them based on their history. Narcissists leave a trail of heartbreak, deception and unmet expectations.
- Don’t let a suspected narcissist talk his way in. They will often try to cover their insensitive and deceitful behavior by claiming that there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding. It is always the other person’s fault.
- Watch for clues. If a guy tells you, “I am a selfish person,” believe him. He’s not being self-deprecating, he’s understating what a narcissist he really is.
- Put up boundaries. Be friendly, but not friends. Do not put yourself in any situation where you need to trust them.
- Reject the temptation to become “the cure.” You cannot identify and treat the unconscious deficits in self-esteem. Narcissists rarely change, especially in relationships.
- Don’t initiate conflict. Any claims, no matter how true, will be met with defensiveness, hostility, perhaps even violence. In fact, you are actually feeding the narcissist’s needs by focusing on him. He is still the star of the show.
How can you get rid of a narcissist?
Don’t reward a narcissist by making drama. The only way to make a narcissist understand personal rejection is to convince him that he doesn’t exist in your life. Ignoring him or humiliating him by failing to give him the starring role, or any role, is the only way to cause real injury to a narcissist. It also happens to be the best way for you to move on.
The bottom line is this: It’s all about them.
A narcissist values a relationship only if he believes it makes him look and feel superior. Have you been involved with someone who has narcissistic tendencies? How did you get out?
Sources:
Twenge, Jean M., PhD and Campbell, W. Keith, PhD, The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement, New York, Free Press, 2009.
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2008/10/psychopathy_antisocial_persona.html#more
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/01/neither_is_this_is_a_narcissis.html
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/narcissist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology)
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I did!! Hahaha, but I hadn't realized until now how perfectly he fit this description. The part about how sometimes they also feed your ego was genious. It finally made sense why he was telling me how great I was TO HIM 24-7. Not 'cause he thought I was great, but because he could always get his way with me. We were in a very weird “relationship” for a few months last year, until I discovered he was a manipulative, self-obsessed liar and that he also tried to hook up with other girls behind my back (tried and failed big time, I may add hahaha). So anyway, I told him to get lost, and refused to hear his absurd explanations. Which worked like a charm, because he has being chasing relentlessly ever since, calling and texting me every few weeks. I mean, he's even got a girlfriend, but he insist in “saving our friendship” and sends me messages through our mutual friends every chance he gets. The big loser even told my best friend that he's got me a present for my upcoming birthday. By now it's just pathetic. After reading this, I feel even more sorry for the poor bastard. But he deserved losing me, so to bad for him. Like you say over there: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Oh Morning glory, you are now fully back in good graces, little white sheep. You are one strong woman with an excellent pair of ladyballs. I know one guy who meets this profile, and what freaked me out is that the woman who dated him has learned, through trial and error, that the thing that gets to him the most is ignoring him. He literally can't stand it, six months later. She's denying him a starring role. I like to think of him turning and tossing at night (hopefully alone in his bed, not inflicting his horrible personality on some new girl). In the end, though, you have to ALMOST feel sorry for these types. They have never known real love, and probably never will. That's tragic, I just wish they didn't leave victims in their wake.
Oh my goodness. This is pretty spot-on. The saddest thing is, even reading this and knowing that my ex-boyfriend was selfish and manipulative, I STILL cry all the time about him and we broke up over 5 months ago….and I broke up with him. During the relationship I felt simultaneously needed and completely disposable–it was bizarre. Hope I can find someone else soon who was half as funny and attractive as he was. Because as of now, I still feel a gaping hole
Drew, thank you so much for commenting and sharing that experience. It really is devastating to fall for someone who is incapable of giving love. I think your description of feeling simultaneously needed and disposable is really interesting – of course, it begs the question of what you were needed for.
Five months is a long time, but truthfully, many women take longer than that to get over someone they were really in love with. And the manipulative guys are hardest of all to get over, because we saw glimpses of something real and caring, only to see it vanish. We wonder what we can do to get that part of the guy to dominate.
But guys like that are truly a waste of time, because there are many men out there who are funny, AND attractive AND caring. Can't live without the caring in the end. You have done the right thing. There will be someone else. Always remember these two things are true:
1. Everything changes.
2. You will be surprised.
That leaves lots of possibilities open for you. I've got my fingers crossed.
P.S. I wrote a series about breakups. Check Best Posts for the Girls' Kickass Guide to Surviving a Breakup. It has stood the test of time, and many, many heartbreaks.
I think you're spot on about who a narcissist is and what characteristics they might portray, however, I can't say that I agree with this line: “Ignoring him or humiliating him by failing to give him the starring role, or any role, is the only way to cause real injury to a narcissist.”
All I have to ask is – why aim for the intent of causing injury and humiliation by ignoring him? What if you're wrong? Seems a bit cruel to me. Especially if you're wrong in the assumption that your date is a narcissist – ignoring him or her will simply cause you to burn your bridges.
Even worse, ignoring someone to humiliate or hurt them suggests that previous relationship baggage is being carried over into future dating situations.
I think for most people the major point I would take from this is that only 1% of the population is a narcissist. That should be a big enough hint that odds are, treating someone as though they have qualities of a narcissist can and will make ending a not-so-great dating experience even more difficult (for both parties).
I think the 1% figure is the population of clearly pathological & anti-social narcissistic types. It seems to be spread quite liberally throughout the population as far as 'trends' are concerned. And ignoring anyone is the least harmful action anyone might take in any relationship. Eventually they'll get the hint. Often explanations are needless & pointless. The really good & 'pro' narcissists can easily turn every explanation around and offer a very plausible & believable excuse for every point by way of rebuttal for their 'excuses' for inexcusable behavior. It's often very toxic & destructive for all concerned, (enablers, family, friends, acquaintances) as they're often so 'believable' and often attractive on many levels too.
But 'humiliation' is indeed needlessly complicated and sometimes hazardous. Just try and forgive (yourself mostly) & forget. Or more quickly, just be Gone, and time will work it's magic and you'll hopefully forget soon enough. That seems to work just as well. Cheers, 'VJ'
Hey, playad, thanks for joining the conversation. I am not advocating causing injury to a narcissist. I was just citing the research that says a narcissist cannot be “touched” emotionally, and can only understand rejection in the context of realizing they have become unimportant in your life. I'm not suggesting that anyone jump the gun and write someone off prematurely. I'm saying that when you are in a relationship who has nothing to give emotionally, the most effective way of moving on is to cut that person out of your life completely and not look back. Because they will try everything in their toolkit to keep you involved, supporting player to their starring role.
That's excellent advice, VJ. And yes, I agree, the 1% figure refers to the true sociopaths. Many, many people have narcissistic tendencies. Just read “Oh Crap, I'm a Narcissist!” to see what I mean.
Hi. I've spent the last 5 days while my boyfriend was away on vacation researching Narcissistic boyfriends, and I think mine is. Anyway, I pity him and still love him mostly because I love most people in my life, but I love myself and my son more so I believe I have to end it. The first clue for me that got me wondering was how bad sex was. I felt like an object for his masturbation, very robotic and no passion, and he refuses to kiss my anywhere during sex and is just not cuddly or affectionate at any time, but he acts sensitive and seems to feel bad for me for my having been through a bad marriage with my ex Narcissistic husband, who was extremely expensive and would not work, and was always abusive, but put on a good show in public and was always commanding me to smile because “people are watching”. The new “soon to be ex boyfriend” (because I intend to break up with him after his vacation so he can enjoy his vacation) fooled me because he acted helpful even though it has been destructive, and he has been staying with me and not helping with any expenses. My current boyfriend is super cheap, and that's what fooled me is because my ex husband was super impulsive about spending (my money). My current N actually seems to flinch when I try to kiss him and it wasn't his move. He only kisses me by pressing lips together, no open mouth or french, and I have been starving for passion. I did tell him what my concerns were and where he can kiss me to make me melt, but he just won't. I did discuss the finances, and how I thought he was too cheap to be the commitment type, but he says to let the relationship just work it's own way and see what happens. I think he is trying to imply commitment, but not promising so he doesn't look like the bad guy. Anyway, I think I've had enough of this N. Great article by the way
OK, there's more, but I was worried all my previous typing would not go through. He is also very vain and you cannot comment on anything that an opposite to what he believes. He is very defensive if I suggest maybe his comb over isn't the best hair style for him now that he is balding on top. It's actually a comb forward so he can have an attempted young man's hair style. I sent him a collage of sexy bald men with short hair to show how sexy bald men could be and he was so affended and cried. If he notices me looking at his bald spot he gets mad, but I was only looking closely because I thought I saw a suspicious mole and was worried it was cancerous, and I'm comfortable with his bald spot. He where very tight clothes to always flash his big muscles. When I met him he was skinny (and nicer) and I was fine with that, but now that he's living off me, he can afford his expensive protein powder and eat dam good. He claims he is just very sensitive, but I think he is very self centered and refuses any input from anyone unless it is in agreement with him. He will just disappear and not talk to family members if they bring up an unfavorable topic. He only talks to people he sees an advantage to knowing somehow, but if there is no advantage, he just leaves the room and says he's busy or shy or they smelled. He can't figure out why people don't say hi to him and it's them not him, but I think now that he's getting older and getting wrinkles, his true self is showing on his face and he just does not look friendly. He likes to watch movies that make me cry because he thinks it's cute, and he cries too, which is the confusing part ince he has so many other N symptoms. Maybe he is mimicing me, which I have caught him do, or maybe he is somehow internalizing the drama which makes him cry. He likes the chick flick and drama more than me. I like comedy, action adventure, and scifi. He says the same thing my ex always said (because my child comes first for my love)…he says “you are a great mom”, but I get the feeling it isn't meant as a compliment and my intuition feels there is a unspoken feeling of he wishes I was a better girlfriend. OK, I could nitpic away some more, but these are the main issues. Thanks for letting my blab away here. My flaw is that I am too willing to go without so those I love can have. It's not good, and I have been so self critical and had on myself and I have to try and be nicer to myself. I've been the perfect woman for a N to keep around.
Hey annie7rose, thanks so much for commenting. Yikes, this guy sounds like a terrible, terrible boyfriend. If he had a great character and was generous, I would be really concerned about the bad sex and even worse kissing. But he stays with you, doesn't contribute, and wants to “see what happens?” I agree with you that what needs to happen is that he leave. You deserve better.
Whoa, this guy sounds totally toxic! Honestly, you sound like you are caring and generous to a fault. You need to move on and look for something better. I'm a big believer in therapy – I wish I could carry a shrink around in my back pocket all day. You may want to talk with someone about why you have had two serious relationships with narcissists. Yes, they're out there, but so are much less destructive guys. It's time for you to choose one of them for a change. Best of luck.
Thanks so much for your comments. It is so hard dating in the older fish pond. I am 40 and have been laid off due to downsizing from my job of 10 years, and have a special needs child so even though I am still positive, and very strong, and skinny/pretty, witty, and highly educated, I have had a tough time dating. It's not easy in my situation and so I decided for now I am just going to get my life back in order. Most of the men that are not yet married after 40 are losers. I have had to break up with closet alcoholics (very nice ones), closet pot smokers, and I just cannot get myself interested in a nice obese man so this N came along who is so healthy, smart, no addictions, and charming/cunning so it was very easy for me to make another mistake. For now I am just not going to date. I have to be employed again and settled for me and my son. Most men seem to automatically think us single moms are gold diggers, which really upsets me because I was always the breadwinner. I would love to seek counceling, but as of now I have no health insurance. Anyway, I hate to sound like an excuse person. I am very strong and survived pure hell with my ex. I'll be just fine
I totally respect your strength and determination in the face of very, very tough circumstances, and I admire your dedication to your son. I can certainly understand why you'd take a break from the dating scene. It's so discouraging that there are so few good men out there, but I agree that dating a loser is just not worth it. I wish you all the best.
So I finally/officially broke up with N and he didn't seem to be phased, but I'll tell yah, come bed time, he really poured it on. Played the romantic music, got all sensitive, kissing me like he's never kissed me before. I let him work cause I wanted to see how good he actually could be in bed….all cuddly and affectionate now….hmmm…But I didn't let him stick his penis in me….haha! I told him I decided for my own mental clearness that I am never having sex again until I am married. It just complicates things and fogs the brain. I'm sticking by it, but dam….for a man who wouldn't french kiss or kiss my neck or give me oral…..he sure was a total different person last night…..”Who is this guy and how'd he get in my bedroom!?”. I knew it was an act….he's thinking “Free rent. Free food.” I just have to keep telling myself this because these personality types are cunning. Anyway, I thought it was funny the whole time, but I did cry once because I actually felt bad for him not having a soul, but he thought I was crying for me and he started crying and he said “this is when I love you the most is when you show your true self”. Anyway, I don't see me crying as my true self….I am positive and laughing as my true self, but I do cry for others, but he didn't know I was crying for him. I have broken up with him as boyfriend/girlfriend, and I am emotionally moved on, but I haven't had the heart to kick him out yet. I kind of like to break things slowly to people so I will require him to pay rent. I think he will leave then, but maybe not. But he is not gonna have sex with me. Hope that doesn't sound bad of me letting him spend 3hrs of foreplay…haha…I have a huge curiosity and I just had to see what he would do, what lengths he would go to, but I held my hand over my vagina…well….except for the oral, which he never did before, but suddenly he was so good at it. I guess for me it was just more of a confirmation of what I had thought. I have another bedroom that he will have to relocate to if he decides to stay and pay rent. I am so close to losing my house anyway mostly due to tax increases and job loss so the extra rent can help. I would keep him as a friend as long as he doesn't turn evil on me. I actually pity him, but no longer to my own sacrifice. Maybe I'm bad, but it is kind of funny watching him totally kissing my butt and he thinks I am fooled.
Annie7rose I empathise about what you've been through with this current narcissist male. I hope you have broken up with him totally and if not do so pronto. Your priority aside from your son is to put all your time and energy into getting another job, your in your 40's and every second counts regarding your entire future and self respect. Plus you won't get a good man at this age with a special needs son if you aren't seen as self sufficient.Being pretty for your age, bright and nice doesn't count a lot for the standard of partner you aspire to as the good ones can find heaps of females with your attributes and younger than you. A woman who is self sufficient, pay a baby sitter and fun to go out with is what appeals more to the middle aged male bracket of together type males to be with. Even then your not that likely to end up in a marital situation, but a long term positive part-time companion.Until you've got a job, fixed up your life & self, just go out with some girlfriends. Unless he found someone over his holiday, these N types are brilliant manipulators &can recreate themselves (another temp illusion) if you seemed serious about ending it with him, so my bets are he didn't get his final marching order despite your seeing the writing on the wall. It's not your weakness, they are tricky & very, very manipulative. Still you need to get him gone ASAP.
When I did do my total end with the N in my life, there was nothing to write about why it had to end as in the past. It was horrifically patently clear it had to end and was definetly over.. I now visit these types of sites as a form of undoing & because I've got the things to still do in having my temp intervention order against him to be made into one for a year(with this one it's needed)
Your narcissistic male will keep you drifting untill you've hardly any positive life options . Wishing you all the best. Also see the “Narcissists Suck” site.
I was married 17 years to a narcissist, single 5, then spent the past 2 years with another “N,” even worse than the first. I am knowledgeable about the issue, am a healthy attractive 52 years old, and have a full and satisfying life. I am not a doormat codependent, yet I KNEW I was dating a narcissist, and kept doing it. He lost his two brothers in one year, and I made excuses for his victimized, depressed, irritable mood. But he only got more difficult to be around, and of course it's always my fault. In the past year, I “ended it” a few times, only for one of us to start it up again. Within the past week, I finally kicked the habit (if you know you need to stop, it really is a lot like trying to quit cigarettes!).
I understand my own psychology and why these types attract me. I feel I've hit bottom with two very different styles of naricissist. Like a drunk ready to get sober, I will never forget where i've been, and I pray for a chance at a healthy, lovely relationship in the future. In the meantime, it's greata to be back in my own life, enjoying my home, children, friends, interests, and freedom from mean people.
I began writing here because i am inspired by the strength and example of people who can see what's what and get out in less than a year. It does not appear brutal or mean, but INTELLIGENT!!! Thank you for your posts.
Mary, thanks so much for leaving a comment. It sounds like you definitely are ready to be single again for now, and I'm really glad to hear that you are enjoying all the things and people in your life that you love. You WILL have a healthy, lovely relationship if that's what you want, and if you remember not to get derailed by the charming but selfish type. That's a challenge, but I wish you all the best!
Thank you Brigitte. I did break up with him. It's been difficult to get him to move out of my house though. I wasn't looking, but an old high school friend contacted me through facebook and we are now super good friends and a bit romantic, but I have decided to be celibate to keep my head clear and find the man who likes me without sex involved. It actually is a big relief to be celibate, guilt free, and be broken up with the N. The problem is that N won't leave and is supposedly looking for an apartment, but while my new interest is calling to talk on the phone, the N that is here now says I am rude and the new man should not be calling. I figure the N should have been a man and moved is butt out by now so he can't complain….it's not like he has even helped with any bills or anything. It's a bizarre situation, but I think I am being realistic, and for now the new man is a good friend and I like talking with him. It's such a nice change from the N, and I don't mean to be rude to the N, but in a normal situation, the man should make an exit after you break up. He's still trying to be cunning and confuse me, but I am totally turned off by N. N lurks around and listens to my phone conversations with my new male friend and questions me later….it just should not be this way and N has till the end of the month to move out. I should not be so nice to even give N that much time, but I can't help myself…..probably is why those N's like me so much. I think I have learned to be more cautious and the celibacy should really help me weed out the N's….it makes them powerless. Yes, I have to get my life fixed. This economy just is not helping. I do have a Master's degree and once I get settled and get a job, it should all fall into place (finger's crossed). Also, I don't care if I am alone. I am an artist and now will have plenty of time to pursue that interest so I am excited. You are so right. Narcissists do suck big time. My new guy friend does know about N and that I am trying to get him to move out. So I am not hiding anything, and N can't try and sabotage my new friendship with a new guy
annie7rose, I just want to butt in here for a second with my two cents. I'm really glad for you – it sounds like you have really taken control of your life. I totally agree about celibacy – when things are chaotic, it can really help to remove sex for a while. And I think it's great that you are reconnecting with an old friend, taking it slow for now.
N sounds horrendous. If he doesn't move out soon, I would definitely have him evicted by the police. You really are being too nice to give him the whole month! He sounds like an incredible creeper.
In the meantime, I'm keeping my fingers crossed too – best of luck with your art, that's awesome that you have a gift!
annie7rose it's good to see you are sounding overall quite happy. Your N is in a position that he may realise he has to lift his game, however reluctantly, for a bit in some areas in case a better offer eventuates where a new man will turf him out if your percieved as desired enough.Avoid the N knowing anything about your new friend and the actual level or type of involvement. You haven't achieved a true break up with the N, just your own recognition that the N isn't that great the way he is when other males may provide more recognition of your overall desirability and qualities The N isn't taking your supposed break up as the end of your relationship, waiting, watching and sizing up what he is going to react with and the degree..Presuming he is a true N he will make sure you will be punished for this, and it will happen , it won't be nice,as he is not out of
your life. It could end up a dangerous situation for you and or your child in the end. you have created a very risky situation. Think as hard as you can with that good IQ after you get some form of free counselling,or better yet explore your situation with a man, best of all a policeman, your opener would be is there anything that I can do legally and fully describe the dynamics of N still there, your new male friend etc..
And by the way witholding sex doesn't give you more power over most men, they can fill in gaps in various ways while they wait, especially the older they are.Don't be deluded by the begging for it, more to do with ego and control.You give yourself more personal power by witholding sex through not being made vulnerable & overwhelmed by the mix of emotions and lust affecting your judgement with a chance to see what a man really offers or how much he may value you overall. I mean well and want to be tactful though it wouldn't be that helpful skirting around it. If you have the features that parallel ( not saying the full on condition) this link you'll know that as well as the positive descriptors you have the risks for the down that can happen. If ever you've been through that you'll want to avoid it, plus that type is a dogs dinner in the end for a N.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_persona... check it out, take care and wishing you and your son the best possible
annie7rose, brigitte is correct, from all that I have read and learned. N is profoundly self-centered, and cannot love you, only what you can do for his ego. Whatever abuse or neglect he experienced early on (along with genetics) makes it impossible for him to participate in a mutual, loving relationship. He may even be able to give lip service to the fact that he has some bad behavior, but again — the admission of some responsibility is to con you, give you impression he has insight. He has no intentions for mental/emotional self-improvement.
My ex-N lives 2-1/2 hrs away and we saw each other only on alternate weekends and some other time when my children are with their dad. N states our relationship has problems because we don't live closer together, and he pressured me to sell my house and buy one with him in my town. I told him if our relationship were healthy enough to do that, we'd be making those plans happily. As it was, I was healthy enough to see that was not a good plan. He was wounded by my refusal to change our living situation, and he got more volatile. I finally lost attraction to my ex-N. He called me yesterday, and although I always was kind in the little feedback I had the guts to give him, this time I calmly told him, “Your life is a train wreck — you look like hell, you act like it, your thinking is distorted — you have nothing for me.” He said, “My life's not a train wreck! … It's a problem!” Can you guess what came next?………… N: “… if you'd just cover me instead of confront me, and give me the help I need, maybe i'd be that nice guy you're looking for… ” He ALWAYS uses his stress and/or my insensitivity as an excuse for his rage.
REMEMBER, there are reasons for his personality problems and behavior, and it is very, very sad, but NO MATTER HOW KIND, UNDERSTANDING, AND PATIENT YOU ARE, HE WILL NOT CHANGE BECAUSE OF YOU. YOUR REMAINING ANYWHERE NEAR HIM BY CHOICE ONLY VALIDATES HIS DELUSION THAT YOU ARE CONNABLE, that he can continue controlling you. Many of us are attracted only to certain types of men, and your own longing may make you vulnerable to filling that void too soon, with someone similar. It takes time for the true N to break thru the initial charm and “relationship-correct” verbals. GO SLOWLY with new guy, and keep sharing with your trusted girl buddies.
Maja9, welcome. I just have to say that I am amazed at the strength and support of those of you sharing your histories with narcissistic men. It's as if you have survived a war! Thank you for being there for each other – I don't have the expertise to delve into this issue more than I have in this post, but I'm glad you've all lived to share your wisdom.
Just hearing what your ex said to you was powerful – I could feel myself getting sucked in! Promising to become that nice guy you're looking for…I can understand how irresistible N's can be, at least in the short term.
Maja9 it's good to have you here. When women are dealing with a true narcissist there is no scope for any level of involvement (aside from necessary access of children) that won't be detrimental to them. They will continually be disrespectful, abusive, controlling,draining and the longer they sustain an involvement make any ending as complex as possible. Of course they provide some carrots (better moments) interspersed along the way The carrots seem a lot better than they should as a lot of your world has been pushed out by them. Family and friends end up stepping aside waiting for you to finish the fiasco, though may well return as strong supports once they realise you are serious about ending it with the N and may need their help to get rid of him. I made the mistake of presuming I'd worked out how to make the N go away slowly himself and miss a messy reaction.In the end I just had to say an outright no after his last petty tantrum. Yes I got rage, threats, irrational demands for all kinds of things.Now it is taking the efforts of getting a long term intervention order, my sons time and support because of course he wants to contest it. Unpleasant as it is there has to be a total full stop. In the end I had to ask myself am I that sick that I'll tolerate disrespect, abuse , inconsistent craziness and a person who can't ever care a stitch about me and doesn't even have any stable identity.I'm not. Anyone can get suckered in, frozen in being perplexed and worn by what follows. Eventually you recognise the nasty empty monster driven by his insecurities, projections and envy will always be doing something to bring you down. It may sometimes be through his indifference and self centeredness and as often intentionally to hurt and control you. I found an N cannot even learn to mechanically carry out decent behaviour in a sustained way no matter how much it would be in his interest to become tolerable and realistically hasn't hardly any other options. The thing about an N , he cannot cope with not having more power than you. So no matter how low a bench mark you will allow with minimul standards for him and find ways of living around his limits he will be compelled to up his negative ante. So things just keep declining, any step forward will have 3 steps back by the N. Thus eventually anyone who can even still crawl departs from this. Best to go while you can run or at least walk away. The weird thing is the N behaves as if he is training you, to fit in no matter what.
N understandably thinks it is working, as you are still there or come back even if you went. The N is in utter disbelief when eventually you've left. The most problematic type of N is generally the nastiest more irritable laziest type. Despite his denials to himself and you about his dispicable behaviour to a woman as a partner, he is aware that he won't sustain or even engage another by “acting” . He nolonger can really remember how to pull off the charming con for long enough. He has spent too long comfortably working on being cruel and inconsiderate. An energetic narcissist often just disappears to a new victim. My cat Phonix when she was only an indoor cat loved her little toy mice, playing with them with great excitement and enthusiasm, nothing gave her greater delight. Each week I had to replace the totally ripped up shreded bits of mouse with a new one. If only you could see that happy sweet face and gratefuly excited cat getting another intact toy mouse. The love a narcissist has is just like my Phoenix has for her toy mouse, and their intent is the same. It is also as “natural” to the narcissist to do what he does to his partner as it is for my cat to do what she does to mice.
brigette – what a great analogy you have give with Phoenix and the 'new' mice she delights in ripping up!
I am in the midst of feeling torn between my healthy, strong, “real” self, and my old urge to get my ex(N) back and delusion that healing the relationship is possible. It's really not my ex-N I want back, but the chance to “be there for him,” as he really has had some huge things happen out of his own control. I also really miss the sex, particularly since I went so many years without a physical relationship.
Though I ended the relationship in earnest a month ago, he has been nudging me with little emails to “call if there's anything at all further I want to talk about.” Yesterday I gave in & wrote back, w/ key issues for me, esp. constant blame of me for his feelings & reactions. His terse, one line less than ten minutes later: “OK, thanks. That just about says it all” triggered me to want to get more from him. I'm okay now, but it hurts again.
Brigitte's words really amazed me in how precisely they describe my experience:
“….I found an N cannot even learn to mechanically carry out decent behaviour in a sustained way no matter how much it would be in his interest… he cannot cope with not having more power than you. So no matter how low a bench mark you will allow with minimul standards for him and find ways of living around his limits he will be compelled to up his negative ante. So things just keep declining, any step forward will have 3 steps back by the N. Thus eventually anyone who can even still crawl departs from this. Best to go while you can run or at least walk away. The weird thing is the N behaves as if he is training you, to fit in no matter what.”
N understandably thinks it is working, as you are still there or come back even if you went. The N is in utter disbelief when eventually you've left. The most problematic type of N is generally the nastiest more irritable laziest type. Despite his denials to himself and you about his dispicable behaviour to a woman as a partner, he is aware that he won't sustain or even engage another by “acting” . He nolonger can really remember how to pull off the charming con for long enough. He has spent too long comfortably working on being cruel and inconsiderate. “
BRIGITTE, your words are an absolute gift from God right now — a perfect reality check, and I am grateful for them. The part of me that has difficulty “waving goodbye” as my life moves farther away toward healthier places feels guilty that he's still on his dis-eased continent. I'm still angry and I'm leaving, which makes me feel I'm judging him and being insensitive (just as he accused me of being).
Marita thanks for your comments and BB regarding the Phoenix analogy, and Marita take heed of that analogy in detail as it is true in every detail. It's his natural state to treat you that way as my cat's was with the mice – Oh, how happy she'd be to have her mouse to play with and shred.
If you are quite sure he is a N you have to stop seeing yourself as judging him negatively. You are facing the facts of how he has treated you, will continue to subject you to abuse and degridation all with a few pluses thrown in that really have no true meaning and be further damaged.This is an evaluation regarding his past repeated actions, looking at the consequences of his actions on you, not playing God judging him.
Heroin addicts that have become damaged wrecks want to quit using, but it hurts the initial withdrawal though it is the only only solution. Don't worry about the sex, of course you miss it , but is the context acceptable, how much do you seem to mean to him after such intimacy & great encounter? And I can gaurantee it he'll eventually not let the sex be satisfying if you really enjoy it once he has you worn enough not to get it too soon elsewhere. How much empathy, sympathy and concern does he show about your pain or when he is hurting you?
You are looking at a person with a condition that will always abuse you, someone who can't envisage or want to be otherwise, content to have such a warped status quo of interactions( it's not what can be truly called a relationship).
You are actually coluding in permitting him to be more bad by giving the opportunity to be bad with you as that's all he'll be with you.
Just like anyone on this planet he will have adverse events to deal with and you aren't seeking to bandage every one else in the world who hits this, only those in a truly reciprocal close relationship with you capable of appreciation. He is a N so doesn't fit the excuse to engage with him for compassion.
Ted Bundy got caught, was facing his legal penalties, was utterly cruely depraved to his victims, but even he was under duress near the end. Would you have wanted to make him feel better?
Stop the framing as your judging him, you are evaluating his actions and the consequences for you that are not acceptable. You are merely very different types of persons that cannot productively be together. That's all you ever say to him refusing to elaborate, just “we are different and I can't see it working, told you that, that's it,finished”. After that “I said it's finished, bye”, whenever he attempts contact.
Ask yourself if you want to reach the crawling state waiting to be abused so much more that you end up so sickened and sick you are a pathetic wretch slowly crawling through your vomit and his shit with nothing about him you could miss.
Or can you realise with your shaken reality and dignity that no man has the right to abuse you repeatedly whatever their problem etc.. AND ACT ON IT NOW!!
Would you accept prostituting yourself on the shadiest streets for $30 a time and a shot of heroin, the $30 and the drug was good, would the price you'd personally pay be worth it?
Remaining within contact with a N is the equivalent, selling oneself very short.
If you let yourself have long enough with absolutely no contact, remembering what he is and does ( no good without something bad following) you will feel glad he is gone and feel so much better.
There will be the initial void, the psychological uneasiness from the past damage and reorentating from the control he had of you, but its the discomfort that will lessen for having a reasonable life and self respect. Becoming some one your kin and kith can be proud to be with again, relieved for your returning.
And it is the only chance for ever having the opportunity of a mutualy positive relationship – with another man – when you let yourself become healed again.
The longer one spends (without necessity like those with mutual children & legal issues for delaying their imminent departure ) with a N, that is before leaving, despite being able to eventually recover, the more you will have reduced the level of your general wellbeing and readier options of the next stage.
My departure was delayed for too long, some understandable reasons & some my frailties & untill recently lack of others direct assistance. The sister of the N who was overseas having taken in some of my issues with his behaviour in a rare conversation said if he is doing XYZ , run girl run. It is much later I realise she couldn't tell me what she'd worked out he really had become and there was one other comment that I now only know it's true significance in being a confirmation of what he is. I've left at the walking with an unsteady gait, any longer it would've been the crawling – ex N was working on it. I'll recover, am recovering, but have more to recover than if it had & could've been sooner. The price is very, very high in obtaining almost perfect knowledge about an ex who is truly a narcissist, where all understanding through experience, emotions and the cognitive conceptual components are alligned to the degree of a forensic psych dealing with malignant narcissists.Yes he fits every single description and criteria. To be with a N so long that every facet has been demonstrated, most repeatedly and other questinable factors excluded as the main condition is not a healthy safe amount of time to have spent with a narcissist.
Any man enacting a relatively strong potential of being a narcissist has delivered sufficient indications of providing damaging ongoing degridation and abuse that is seriously toxic.
Would you continue play with a heap of asbestos fibres that you found only rather irritating once you found out it was asbestos and risk impaired breathing and a painful death down the track or dump it fast?
Marita you are clearly making a very genuine attempt to get free of your N and are concerned. If you don't yet succeed in keeping with this I doubt very much with what you have expressed that it's a short coming on your part, rather an indication of the disruption the experience of a N has had on you.You will get and keep away from him, hopefuly sooner than later and take, no demand any assistance from others ( councellors, kin & kith) for this if you find it too hard to muster the personal toughness yourself now. You are on “the edge of reality” so if you can push yourself that bit further and just do it, do so, or get help to do so.
Examine how he has trained you & already reduced your world if he has had such impact to delay a final no contact.
What comes through from you is that you are dealing with the real thing regarding narcissists, not just the self centered arrested developmental defensively chauvanistic male. The latter is bad news & pointless but doesn't equal what a narcissist will put you through or the risks over time. I have no professional expertise or qualifications about Narcissists or coped at all well with my personal experience with the one I had.
I do have a background in social work post graduate level and have worked as one. There is something in me that can process from theory & past practice resulting in a feel for things that shapes any stronger conclusions. So while some personal lessons were late for the learning for myself, it is something from this that can give me a sense that feels I may be possibly on to something correctly. Though I'm not presumptious enough to be claiming anything for sure without professional peers to review my views.
Briggitte, thank you for the continued support. I have spent energy trying to “make sure he is a real N,” not just a “self-centered developmentally arrested defensively chauvanistic male” (great description!). He fits the DSM criteria, but I've wondered, could a true N (1) consistently do nice things with & for me, (2) be aware of his personality issues (I think he knows he's NPD & he admits taking things negatively if it's unclear), and (3) really want to have a healthy relationship, which i think he does?
I had enough time with him to know he is emotionally unhealthy, and I cannot be myself around him. My truth is not a judgment of his worth – I needn't feel guilty for leaving a situation that is harmful to me, regardless of how narcissistic he is or isn't!
Your flat out NO CONTACT suggestion is the right one. I ended it last spring, w/ 3 months of no contact. I wasn't ready, so when he made his moves, I responded. The reference to addiction is apt — getting clean and sober doesn't usually happen on the first try. I've had a lot of therapy, and I see the reasons I stayed even when I knew I shouldn't. Getting & staying “emotionally sober” is tough. I'm fine most of the time, but those weekend nites and other specific times when I lack male companionship or help are vulnerable times for me. Planning good ways to spend these times is crucial.
After ending a 17-year marriage to a scary N, I built a stable, fulfilling life. Starting to date is a challenge. With N, I was “myself” in the beginning, but you're right — he trained me. At first he talked about “relationships,” shared articles on codependency, etc. And he referenced the future. Part of me knew it was manipulative, to “lock me in,” and part of me liked thinking he wanted me in his life and talked about future events that included me. He changed suddenly, which I attributed to the fact that one of his brothers died 6 months before we met and his other brother was terminally ill & died a year after. Could his narcissism be that form of regressive N that can happen to during major life stress? The outbursts became more frequent, more intense, more out of proportion to what caused it, and a lot of times, I did nothing to cause it. It rings true for me that my difficulty resisting contact is an “indication of the disruption the experience of a N has had” on me.
I also am a social worker, but in my own relationship, I am a civilian. Hearing from you is so helpful. I have researched NPD to death, and your comments seem accurate. Thanks for being there.
[Note: I am also Maja9, and this might post that way. I got messed up trying to log on a second time and ended up having to give a new name.]
Marita you have described quite an unbelievable number of parallels. I (am 54yo) ,ended up divorced at the same age as you, I'm normally viewed as attractive and the toll of dealing with this N has resulted in my gaining a lot of weight in the last 2yrs (had a few prior fat stages, loose it usually when I get back fully to my world). I ended up with this N 3 months after ex husb & I seperated.
It was 9 years of this person with breaking offs throughout the time.
I too had alternate excuses /diagnosis for the N, the shock of his ex abruptly leaving him & monopolising his kids, blaming his ex for her prior abuse of him & ongoing interfearance (his ex wife is a psychopathic PD or the most malignant form of a NPD, yet I'm sure he drove her nuts too) and her onslaught on me + including her kids (they are no better though with such parents what else could they be like), his developed chronic alcoholism, later fits to the level of seemingly temporary periods of brain damage shown, him being isolated from his family o'seas, his having shown a variety of personalities ( were talking about altered facial physiology, voice patterns& accents, not just values & personas), seeming depressed, etc..
Well he hasn't been drinking for 2.5 yrs and has become a chronic hoarder /compulsive shopper with a rubbish tip of a house oozing with items and at the end of the day he has displayed constant proof of being a narcissist full bore.
You need to look hard at the reality.
While there are some reasonable men out there, very few are available.
It can be possible to find another ,though realistically it's even more likely there won't be another, especially if you leave it much longer.
(You will, if you want to, always be able to find a friend for sex )
Ask yourself how intolerable do you find him compared to no man in your life for another couple of years?
You will only be truly motivated to get and stay rid of him as much as you are more at ease without any man if it means having him around.
If you continue with him in any way he'll have decided your desperate enough and lacking in self worth to be his subject on his terms. All Ns have the right words at the start and will intermittently come up with sounding as if you matter despite the fact nothing of that ilk will be delivered or improved behaviour sustained. A true mutually caring relationship is supportive and feels positive most of the time with occasional patches of problems.
So far all of these miserable relationships where the guy does a few nice things and is disrespectful, irritable projecting blame eventually end.
It isn't even that pleasant for a narcissist once he knows that he will encounter disapproval & criticism( even if don't express it as such) for many of his behaviours with you.N is only left with a greater need of control to enact out and repay you with.
He already has eroded something of you that having any part of him has become worth the ugly rest
.By the way most people hit with traumatic loss seem regressed & self proccupied in recovering themselves and getting things done.The capity for empathy, morality & caring are still there, but take a back seat in use while the afflicted is in survival mode.
There is no thing like a regressive narcissist, just a N who has had their world shaken by an event. So that they who were a true narcissist, in their indignant annoyance of something out of their control impacting on “MOI??”. can't be bothered concealing their true self. So from the charming seductive narcissist, possibly not even noticed as a N, we see a bitter malicious N, far more noticable.
What do your friends , family and children think of your involvement with this N?
How desperate are you to have a man?
Can you really respect yourself if you invent another excuse to delay the final door closing for good? Especially as you have reached the edge of reality.
Saw this on another site:
“daughter, instead of a wishing bone , get a back bone” ,
I should have seen this earlier, that resonated for me than all the abuse info etc..
Good luck, you can only do what you can and face your worst fears.
Brigitte,
EVERYTHING you mention is parallel. His face has truly changed, he changes with different people, lives in same cluttered, dirty studio apartment for 30 years, is inconsistent with money (e.g., we've been out to dinner exactly 5 times in 2 years), but spends huge money on food at Costco (11 legs of lamb last year — they were on sale) then has to give it away because he doesn't have room for it – an easy investment in N-supply from others rather than generosity. He would never tell me, but I believe he had addiction issues in the past and now is a dry drunk/clean addict, or maybe not. I suspect he is abusing his pain meds for back problem. JUST WRITING THESE THINGS is sobering — why would anyone go to the terrific trouble I have to be with this person?
I started seeing him just after i turned 50, and admittedly, I had a crisis with that: 50, alone, sex-starved, how much longer do i have for a chance to have an active relationship where we're healthy enough to things together, etc. That's a big reason I stayed with him. Ironically, “doing things” was a small part of our time.
My state of mind is settling down. I am not desperate to be with a man, but it is something i would like.
About others' opinions, my daughter & brothers didn't like him, and though my best friend always just supports me, her husband tactfully gave his feedback with “I” statements, such as, “it's hard to have a conversation with him.” My body also tells me the truth. My appetite, sleep, mood, GI system, plantar fasciitis all are calm when I've decided to leave him. They churn up again when I go back w/ him.
No, I cannot respect myself if i go back one more time. My kids have much going on this fall, and though I don't want to “live through them,” it's important to participate with them, spend time with my few close friends, and cultivate more of my own interests. I truly like & value my own life. N's contacts shoot holes in my resolve, so I have blocked my email to him and am making enjoyable plans with others for those vulnerable times when I feel lonely. He is NOT the answer to my loneliness — no man is. To some extent, that's an existential issue we all must come to terms with. Loneliness is an issue for me, as I was very much alone as a child. Being “normal” socially requires much effort, and I used to have some social phobia. As much as i am social and want to balance social/alone, alone is baseline, becomes lonely. Very. Staying that way and having the loneliness become even more profound is my worst fear. It is something I must face over and over, and continue to work through. I understand the fear is worse than the reality… I have some skills, some faith.
I appreciate this forum and your ability to present all relevant facts to me. I am strong most mornings, but then weaken through the day and week. 13 and 17 year old kids aer with their dad this weekend. I am making plans. I don't expect you to respond every time, but I likely will be here, checking in, and trying to stay on track.
Marita I can't resist a quick comment, the money, the outings, penny cautious , huge spending to make clutter, but the food shopping, this N too, and I've had this N do exactly the same, quantaties and all like the meat bargain, can't be kept all of it any way, and the rest is not keeping that well in the totally crammed freezer (it can't be that effective so full), some things get put in after quite a delay, plus use now can keep deteriorating even in a freezer, and heaps is buried & God only knows how long – worse goes nuts if I throw out either from a freezer or fridge things going off. When I'd be around I could curb a little of this nuts buying, When I'd keep away for longer, it would escalate further
And the same comment from some men trying to politely say “He's F_cked”Though it's true about they're being that way conversationaly'.
I don't need to give more egs they would end up matching yours anyway. I've heard of guys who can be similar, but never to the degree yours is.. Ahh you've had the thrill of sharing with my ex N's identical twin (his age?, this one is 58)
Similarily, I wouldn't expect constant responses, though in the end it has been good for me & I can see why despite thinking I was mostly motivated by hoping what I shared would improve your chances of not having to go down a similar road as far as I did, if it was at all avoidable.
The price gets a lot higher the longer spent having anything to do with the N.
I've been in N site as facing another stage for getting an intervention order.
These reminders of the things a N “shares” does help me at all levels and realising I'm not the only woman to have been through the experience of a N partner (?)!
Of course I understood the issues of being single in our 50's, have had similar wobbles but now more at ease with bits of occasional feelings of lonliness & liking more of the aloness and sharing with those that are good to be with. I'll throw in what a friend – same name as mine- shared with me. It turned out to be the same as I'd worked out seperately.
What my friend Brigitte (from Adelaide) had in a part of an email “…………am pleased with my ability to communicate…on many levels…it's a real joy to have achieved such good english….and such understanding….but alas….often I get hurt….by my understanding…and the irony that is 'life' and our insignificance within it…..understanding something doesnt make it any less tragic/sad nor' does it fix anything…..wisdom can be a sad and lonely place…..but I dont get lonely anymore…..I realise we are alone ……and always will be…..so lonliness is a nonsense'…..
I'm enjoying having you……is that selfish of me….it's enjoyable to speak my mind and know you are on the same plane…and my words are not wasted…” (Gitte)
You are welcome to contact me on myspace (would have given you my email address but maybe not an idea to put it here for any peeved N). The surname is the same as the movie, you know my age , the picture icon is obviously of a pet and the state is Victoria in Australia (not SA)
I am truly thrilled that you are getting rid of old rubbishman and will have a fresh new life. Congratulations!!!!!
Gitte — I am enjoying you as well and will try and find you. I''m new to the social networks, finding you is my first endeavor. may not succeed until weekend. Back soon.
I am having trouble locating you in MySpace, and now cannot even find the blogsite/chatroom for “Are you dating a N?” I am replying to you via email link. I am Marita on Myspace, from New York, 52 y.o. Write!
Marita it's gotten surprisingly late, didn't find you yet either on my space. You can email me on my secondary email address,I'm not that worried about personal security or the secondry address ever being stuffed by a resentful N visiting this site. So try comunikayt@gmail.com
The other Brigitte ( Gitte) is a friend on my myspace.
Excellent news, all the effort in remaining focused (pushed by my supportive smart son), both sons prepared to be witnesses- they saw parts, heard parts, even got some admissions re N – I GOT THE 1 YR INTERVENTION ORDER AGAINST HIM, N gave up and consented (without admission to my claims),
SO FANTASTIC NOT TO HAVE NEEDED THE NEXT STAGE OF THE CONTESTED HEARING, THIS HANGING OVER ME,
N IS GONE , GONE AT LAST & CAN'T BOTHER ME ANYMORE
I'm still recovering from these last couple of months(not counting the long term damages from knowing him before) , but feel free & able to work fully on my life, at last.
These last 2 weeks of having the need to work on and stay prepared for the legal removal of ex N ( very needed as he was going over to be harrasing, threatening,damaging things, cutting off my water, phone for periods over the day & night & has seriously assulted me in the past, etc & failed to keep his word with my son to stop, police told us 4 times to get the order) had disrupted my sleep patterns via stresses.
Ending up nocturnal wouldn't be that bad, except there are certain appts etc to get up for and the rest of the time when I should be able to sleep in, my darling cats get and keep me up . It's the start of spring so the cats are zapping up earlier, while in later daylight and the misery of winter we all could sleep in at times.
I hope all you fair maidens learn from what I failed to do. That is to get away ASAP from an N.
The consequences are like those of lingering at a rocky surf beach when the tide is coming in.
I lingered, got caught trying to manage by getting on some rough rocks, still caught by the waves, getting bruised and drowning. It needed then to get very determined to keep up struggling if one was going to have any chance to make it back to the shore & accepted the needed to put my arm up to signal help & for the life gaurds
assistance.
The N starts like a great time on the surf beach, pretty rock pools, froth from breaking waves, then comes the darkening sky, signs of the tide coming in, knowing it's prudent to depart now, though it's not that much deeper yet, though chillier, but still intriguing, not yet, of heck, now what?,if I get up high enough on those rocks ?, they are sharp & slippery, & still not high enough to avoid getting washed into the dangerous depths…..
The writings about the impact of the true narcissist (NPD) on former partners often having significant stress symptoms, lengthy recovery periods are because partners who don't have such disorders are very adversly impacted upon by the type of abuse a N does. Thus the Ns are particularily damaging and dangerous to know. The less of the N experience the less the damage.
For instance being raped by one footballer for 20 mins & released is awful enough, but a couple of hours of a gang rape by a whole football team untill released, wreeks far, far more devestation – mentally, emotionaly and physicaly.
I am literally dumbstruck by your testimony! Seriously, the only word I can think of to describe it is SURVIVOR. I am very glad that you have found each other to share support. No matter how wonderful friends and family are, there's nothing like finding someone who speaks the same emotional language as you do. Reading your account gave me goosebumps. I once witnessed a hearing to consider a restraining order against a guy who was stalking and threatening a woman. It had been in place a year, and she wanted it renewed. His attorney fought it tooth and nail. The hairs on the back of my neck were standing up, and I was incredibly relieved when it was extended. At that point, the woman wept with relief, and I understood the power of that man to frighten her.
First off, I am so glad to have found this web site. I have honestly been struggling with the break up with my ex-narcissist for 16 months now. We were together for a little over 3 years. We lived together for 2 years. I am a single mom of 2 children. I don't need to go into all of the details to expalin his narcissim ( I know he is one), I have been in therapy since we broke up on a weekly basis and it still hurts. We still have some contact and I agree that NO contact would be the better choice but… you know how hard that can be. My biggest issue is even though I understand what a narcissit is and their inablilty to love and have empathy for others I STILL cannot wrap my head around ACCEPTING it. It is still so hard to wonder why you can't break the shell, to want sooo badly for them to recognize your pain and feeling of abandonment, to want to be proved wrong that this person DID really love you!?!? I feel like I cannot have closure without knowing that he feels bad for my pain or something!?! I know it probably sounds sick. I did truely love him and honestly believed for a long while when we were together that he loved me too. Anyway, I just wanted to get some of this off of my chest. Thank you to any of you listening.
Hi jabjen, I'm really glad you found me too! I know that the pain you describe is familiar to many women. I do think one of the most difficult things is wrestling with the idea of what you meant to him. But questions of whether he really loved you miss the point, because he is not capable of experiencing love in the way that you define it and want it. I have witnessed a relationship like this close up, and I do believe that man was invested in that woman, obsessed with her, very demonstrative at times. Did he feel something real? Yes, I think he did. But he couldn't sustain it, stick with it, and be generous. I remember saying to her, “He just can't do it.” He was emotionally disabled. It wasn't her, it was all him.
I am really, really glad you are in therapy. Don't give up, take it one day at a time, focus on your beautiful children, and heal. Yes, I think it will take a really long time. But you are making progress, and you will feel whole again. Then you can be open to moving on with someone new. I wish you all the best.
Thank you for your kind words. The relationship that you speak of witnessing up close sounds very familiar. I have the same conversations with my therapist about it not being about me- as a true narcissist it is STILL about him no matter what.
One of the reasons that it is taking me so long to heal is that I have not been able to remove him from my life. We are still friends (if you can call it that), we speak about once a week and see eachother approx. once a month or so. We have still been sleeping with eachother off and on since our breakup but about 1 month ago I told him that I could not do it anymore. It was too painful especially since he was sleeping with other women as well and I have never moved on with anyone else. He of course did not seem to be bothered or too concerned even though saying the words outloud led me to 4 hours of crying in front of him. He has never spoke of the conversation since.
I know that I cannot heal and move on with him in my life but I can't imagine cutting him completely out either. I just had this conversation with my therapist last week and she of course explained that it really is a black and white decision and I am the only one that can make it.
This web site (again) helps as I feel that I can no longer lean on my family and friends. They do not understand and are sick of listening to it. So, thank you.
Jabjen, I am so glad you find support here. There are other women who have experienced this, and we never get sick of listening. I'm not a licensed therapist, and I'm not going to tell you what to do. I just want to say one thing. I believe that you have already made that decision. You know very well and very clearly what is necessary.
In the relationship I talked about earlier, there was also an ongoing “friend” relationship, which included talking frequently. Several months into it, the woman discovered that the man had essentially been leading a double life, and had another relationship going while he was involved with her. It was so shocking, and so painful that she said then and there that she never wanted to speak to him again. And she hasn't. By the way, he was not sorry, did not seem to care that she was devastated. He claimed it was a misunderstanding, and has told many of their mutual friends that “there are two sides to every story.” That happened nearly a year ago, and she is still having terrible dreams about it. But she also feels relieved that there are no new injuries being inflicted by him.
I hope you will find the strength and support that you need to do what you have already decided to do.
A huge thanks susanawalsh for your earlier reply to me showing such understanding ( it meant a lot to me) as each reflection you made was accurate and insightful.Family and friends can't fully grasp the “N experience” and why it's had such a depleting affect nor why it could take so long to totaly exit the N for good.This helped me looking more at what was achieved, rather than my embaressment & focus of being disapointed by the reminders of what I still have to recover.
Jabjen I do understand this painful stage having been there myself at an earlier point with the ex N. Though that stage didn't include my being convinced that he was definately a N. With more time he demonstrated repeated behaviours covering every possible trait of a N. Once his being a N and a malignant form was definative I realised there was no scope to have him on any terms at all in my life unless I believed I deserved & wanted to be disrespected, abused becoming further damaged psychologically, emotionaly, physicaly including my health and economicaly.Unacceptable for myself , kith & kin. The N has been exited though escalated in terrorising me prior to that.
Jabjen if he really is a Narcissist it precludes him from any capacity to have empathy or capacity to love and care for another plus is driven to continualy respond to those close to him hurtfuly to sustain the balance fitting his personality disorder.He cannot do otherwise over any lengthy period. Nor can my cats resist chasing & killing any potential prey no matter how well fed & sweet at othertimes.Cat can't grasp the best explanation of Buddhist philosophy or my compasion rescuing the bird just caught.
Have you explored with your therapist your attachment to him in the following light ” Hostages have put up bail for their captors and have expressed a wish to marry them. People seek increased attachment in the face of danger or threat of danger.
A significant factor in keeping people 'attached' even whilst they know they are being sucked dry or their existence threatened is betrayal bonding.
Uncontrollable disruptions or distortions of attachment bonds precede the development of post-traumatic stress syndromes. People seek increased attachment in the face of danger. Adults, as well as children, may develop strong emotional ties with people who intermittently harass, beat, and, threaten them. The persistence of these attachment bonds leads to confusion of pain and love. Trauma can be repeated on behavioural, emotional, physiologic, and neuroendocriniologic levels. Repetition on these different levels causes a large variety of individual and social suffering.
Anger directed against the self or others is always a central problem in the lives of people who have been violated and this is itself a repetitive re-enactment of real events from the past. Compulsive repetition of the trauma usually is an unconscious process that, although it may provide a temporary sense of mastery or even pleasure, ultimately perpetuates chronic feelings of helplessness and a subjective sense of being bad and out of control. Gaining control over one's current life, rather than repeating trauma in action, mood, or somatic states, is the goal of healing.” Vanderkolk.This came from another article on Narcissists.
While you have some say in your N involvements and the resultant incurring of negative psychological consequenses, your children don't. They are totally dependant on the type of care, protection & immediate environment you provide with their mother's condition central to it. They ought to have a happy, positive confident parent shaping their world. A parent only exposing them to positive adult role models demonstrating healthy relationships, especially in their early formative years. There have been studies about how a mothers emotional states have direct impact on childrens' development. Have you explored this in full detail with your therapist?
Have you checked out for your self if you may be a candidate for medications (eg antidepressants) to assist you if this situation has impacted on you, because if so it could help you cope better & improve your ability to carry out more.
Good luck through this difficult journey.
Brigitte —
thank you for your clear and pinpoint description of the very real dynamics that affect partners and others near the N, and how trauma/PTSD are always a part of sustained contact and attachment to someone with narcissistic disorder. Articles by Sam Vankin at HealthyPlace.com also describe perfectly the nuances and indescribable (to others) twistst and turns of heart and mind that suck us in to confusion, guilt, sadness, with the N in our lives. I have read these articles over and over in order to keep in what I know is reality, and to reinforce my own values and identity. Check it out.
School and hockey have begun in my part of the world so it's been hectic, but I'm glad to have found this thread again. I believe my ex-N called from his private home # 2 mon/wed/fri two weeks ago, and I know he called from his work # this past wed. No messages. I am okay not calling back, but even this kicks up feelings I must deal with. I am finding fun & confidence focusing on my own, real life, and the friendships that stay with me when I am not with him. I feel lonely often, especially at night, & when I think i may never have a loving, physical relationship with a man who appreciates me.
Acutely aware of how horrible i feel WITH N, I now say to myself, “It's okay to be alone, you can handle it, you're never bored, just need to trust that life will continue to bring good people and opportunities…. You are not a reject because you are single in your 50s.” So far this is quite natural, because if I didn't believe it, i'd be calling N back for another round of make-believe relationship that leaves me drained and depressed.
Hi, I’ve just broken up with my boyfriend of 6 months, but known him for 8. It wasn’t until the day I broke up with him, Narcissist was mention to me by a really close friend. She was married to one for 5 years and knew the signs.
So, I am on day 3 off my break up. And I suppose like any break up I feel like a massive void has hit my life.
I met my ex while on a ski trip, he was my chalet host. At the time I had a boyfriend, but my now Ex N won my attention straight away, though I did say I was with someone. He seem determined to ‘get’ me. In away, he made me realise my fella back home wasn’t right for me, which I guess I knew deep down, he was a little too dull, but lovely though.
Bits happened with the N, including actually masturbating over me, which I found a little odd! We agreed to stay in touch via texts, emails and skype, until he returned back to the UK for good after working seasons in the mountains. We spoke for hours and hours and in my eyes a romance was blooming. He even said he was falling in love with me.
Just before he was due home, I got cold feet and thought, hang on, I really don’t know this guy that well, and tried to call if off. He wasn’t having any of if, and once again charmed me into meeting up. Which I did.
Things moved pretty fast and with in a month or so, he had moved in to my 1 bed flat, along with the majority of his belongings. Why would I say no?? I’d fallen in love with him, and he told me the same.
Apparently I was his soul mate and we were meant to be!
During this time, he had no job and I was paying for everything, bills, rent, food, everything… again I let it happen, well because I’d do anything to keep him happy.
Until the arguments started, mainly about him sponging off me! Which he always denied. He knew how much I wanted to be with him and for him to remain in my flat. His only other option for living arrangements was back with his mum, 300 miles from me.
I ended up finding him 3 jobs, the first he was offered but didn’t take, the second, quit during the first two weeks of he trial and the third he took and still has.
We had arguments, which were more like discussions, every couple of weeks, which all seem to finish with the same conclusion, it was my fault, it was my issue and I should fix it.
To help prevent arguments, I wouldn’t always say what I really wanted, to help keep the peace, but felt I was walking on egg shells.
On 3 occasions, he threaten to leave, the first time, I broke down and told him not to go, the second, I called his bluff and he was startled, and the third, well this is fantastic, he said he was leaving, so I began to collect his items from around the house, and make a pile in the lounge, he asked me to stop touching his things, and I ignored him, he said if you do that again, he’ll call the police! So I carried on touching his stuff.
He dialled 999, next thing 2 cop cars, 3 officers.
I was detained in the bedroom, while he had full access of my flat, which he paid nothing towards, to take what he wanted.
After driving away, he was texting, saying he wanted to talk!! And would I go an meet him. I told him where to go!
He went off to work with a car load of stuff, but then came back in the evening asking for forgiveness.
He basically had nowhere else to go. Once again, I told him to leave me alone!
Unfortunately it only took him 2 weeks to charm his way back into my life. The rose tinted glasses went back on, and I began seeing him again. Though I refused to let him move back in.
he was on his nest behaviour, we did a lot of talking and really thought be had made several break through. I still think today that we did. Which is what I’m finding hard to handle. maybe rather than just finishing it, I should have tried talking, but I could see he was already pushing it towards me.
He now has his only place and surprisingly can now find the cash to pay for rent etc.!
Due to actions, my family hate him and have no respect for him, which I understand, but this is what lead me to breaking up with him. He was asking me to choose between him and my friends and family. He said I had to make them like him again. He wasn’t prepared to live with the consequence of his actions, he just didn’t like people not liking him.
To top off my anger to this, it was my birthday, which he bought me a half price box of chocolates, a book which looked like it came off his own bookshelf or from a charity shop. Oh, and a bottle of wine, which he’d already had a drink from the night before!
But what gets me about him, is that anything he did which I feel was the ‘true’ him got instantly crushed by his actions from his N side, and that is what makes me think, Have I made he right choice in breaking up with him. He deffo shows signs of N, but not all. I’m trying to be strong. I have deleted all phone numbers, emails, etc… I can not contact him, though he does work and live in the same place I do! I have told him not to contact me and his reply was, if that's what you want. he didn’t even fight to save the relationship despite him saving it wasn’t what he wanted. I still love him and everyone around me are saying be strong, you did the right thing, but all I really want is a cuddle from him, to fix things and move on. Though I know, it’ll move on to more manipulation and control. It’s so hard.
Oh, snapper, thank you so much for coming and leaving a comment. I know that you are tempted, but honestly? This is a horrible story, and yes, he does show all the classic signs. And he never takes responsibility for his actions. Never once do you mention that he offered a sincere apology. Or tried to change to make you happy. And the birthday gifts? What a cheap, selfish bastard!
If you take him back now, you will go through another cycle, and you will be back in the same place in the near future. You will repeat the cycle until you have finally had enough. I hope that you have the strength to see this through, and the support of your friends and family to rely on. I hear that you love him, but it sounds more like you are addicted to him. If you can, get a good therapist – I'm a big believer.
I'll end by asking you if you respect him? Or ever could?
Hello again. I have left previous comments about a Narcissistic Boyfriend whom I broke up with and he was fine until a started seeing a new man. Now my ex N boyfriend is stalking me. He follows me and knows when I have been away from my house. Then he shows up at the grocery store and tries to act like my friend and seems shocked when I tell him he is scaring me and his emails sound mean. He even starts the water works because he knows I am going to lose my house. I'm not even upset about the house; it has been a struggle and I will be happy to let the bank have it. So weird. He has also threatened black mail because I am also in process of divorcing my ex N spouse, and my ex N boyfriend threatens to show up in court as a character witness against me. Also, I did a tiny bit of work under the table to scrape by to pay bills and mortgage when I could and my ex N boyfriend is threatening to turn me in. He is also trying to poison my new relationship and belittle the new man I am in love with. I love my new boyfriend and want to protect him. My ex N boyfriend even showed up and ranted in front of my new guy about a false affair and how insensitive I am. My new boyfriend thinks my exN boyfriend is a jerk and sees me as the sweetest girl so the rant did not work, but I am afraid this drama will wear on my new relationship, and I am afraid to inform the police or get a restraining order because of the black mail threats. I am just being really calm and polite when he does show up and hope he will get bored and move on. Any advice please. I do have a child too and I sure hope this guy doesn't turn violent.
Snapper Susanawalsh has described it perfectly. Even though it's a bit too early to tell if your chap is a Narcissist he doesn't give a dam about you, and is a lazy con “boy”, that's how he has gotten by till now doing as he likes. If he has a better side and is in his mid twenties he may grow up and get his act together, but not with you as you don't have his respect. In case you are allowing yourself to be treated as unworthy because at a subconcious level there is guilt about your treatment of the earlier boyfriend , forgive yourself and address whatever led to that. Then stop allowing any contact with this last person and become someone worthy of a positive relationship in the future.Do this fast before you impair your self from the damage he will do and avoid scars, recovery time that will delay a good future. If you can see a counsellor to explore what's going on with you to be in this situation, something is as you let this scammer in when you were in a fairly good situation.
annie, I have reread your earlier comments, and I'd like to note a couple of things. A month ago, you stated (wisely, in my opinion) that you needed to be independent and celibate for a while. Now you mention that you are in love with a new man. That was very fast! I just don't see how you could be emotionally ready and available for someone new, with this ex so recently in the picture.
Second, if you have any doubts at all about whether your safety is compromised, you must go to the police now. As you say, you have a child. Any fallout from some under the table work (which is not exactly rare) will pale in comparison to the grievous consequences of his becoming violent. The level of stalking that's occurring now is frightening, and I would most certainly seek a restraining order. The idea that being calm and polite will bore him is not plausible. He sounds very invested in the outcome – as a narcissist, his ego is on the line.
I'm not a professional, but that's my instinctive advice.
Annie7rose it's just as I thought,I did say that, your ex N was going to make you pay if you let him linger and know to much enraging him to see a new relationship forming. As I said in the past, a N will make you pay and can be dangerous. I do think in the past you have juggled male relationships a tad like a southern belle, but not with any of those men being a “Malignant Narcissist,” a true NPD with psyopathic tendencies. He won't rest untill he does destroy your current life, relationships, cause legal problems and extensive damage unless you do one of these three things. One give into him completely exiting current boyfriend to recieve temporary benevolance and deffered slower destruction, two get an intervention order calling his bluff & he still may report you, but be forced to stop doing the other interfearances (still a possibility he may kill you within a year-read about stalkers), three is wether by using womens shelters or on your own move, disappear so he cannot find you. If your ex N cannot cause sufficient damage to you or get you to do what he wants he actually could turn you or your child into a statistic of crime, the victims of grevious bodily harm to death. I had a bad feeling about how things were shaping before, they are right on that path and hopefully it won't be as bad as I think it could be, but I'd rather say what I have to have you look hard at being safe. Don't get anxious but get control of what you can. He is not going to get bored and go away. Talk to women who run domestic violence shelters or advice lines and take their advice. I am not an expert in this area, but worked & explored areas linked to this. I am just saying you are very likely in a seriously damaging situation and need to get the relevant advice fast, and act fast.
Thanks Susanawalsh and Brigitte. I do realize where my issues lie. Brought up in a family where both my parents and sister were/are highly critical, and have serious jealousy issues. They have some great qualities too, and as an adult I feel I have discarded the negative qualities and have kept the good qualities, but the problem is that having been raised in such a way, it made me too tolerant of men who were not treating me decent. I do realize this, and I have learned.
My new relationship was not one I expected. I was not looking, but an old high school friend and family friend found me. He does not take anything from me. If I have any personal interest or passion, he pushes me towards my dreams. If I say I always wanted to learn piano, he shows up with a keyboard. If I say I want to paint, he shows up with an easel. He “feels like home”. Not the home I grew up in, but the home I always wanted…just that feeling you know what I mean. I know it was fast, and he and I are both taking our time and being realistic. This is the first relationship where I am encouraged to be me and explore my passions. Usually with the ex N's and other ex's it was all them and all about what I can do for them. I was expecting to be just by myself, and my meeting the new boyfriend was completely accidental. I am keeping in my mind always to keep my passions and interests and be realistic.
As far as the ex N, yes I will go to the police if he keeps stalking me. He is 40 and most likely never grow up. I also know his parents and if he persists, they will be notified about what he has been doing so it will be on their hands too. I have not let them know yet because I do not like drama and don't want to seem the trouble making ex girlfriend. I did research stalking and the statistics and one thing it says is to let everyone know what is going on. That I have done. The only people who do not know is his family, and if he persists, they all will know. Yes it is scary, but I am typically a calm person and I always try and take the peaceful route first.
annie, I remember your mentioning that high school friend previously. I'm actually really happy to hear that's who you are involved with. He does sound like a very decent man. I'm glad you have let people know about what is going on with the ex, but if he persists, I don't think his parents are the ones you should go to next. I stand by my earlier recommendation to contact the police. Your current bf would support this move, I suspect, and would stand by you through any of the blackmail issues. By the way, blackmail itself is illegal. This creep could be arrested for that. (See David Letterman)
Thank you Susanawalsh. Yes, my current bf says he trusts me to do what I feel I need to. Last time I emailed the ex's mom to let her know he would not move out and that I needed help, and that he was being a bum, her response was concerned but she said to hurry and delete the email like she did and seemed fearful. It was strange. Also, now his accusations are making more sense about two previous girlfriends. One of whom disappeared from the face of the earth and he has no clue where she is…he claims she is dead but has no proof…maybe dead to him in his world only(he thinks he has a supernatural sense of things), and the other decided to travel Europe and he has no idea where she is. I do think he may have had some legal issues in another state. I know which state, but won't say here, but he claimed to me that she set him up and harmed herself. Now I wonder. He has never laid a hand on me though or threatened physical harm. He just twists all the memories to show how evil and dirty I am and how perfect and sensitive he is in the emails, and the blackmail email was for an apology from me because he is so sensitive….how freakin lame. I gave him his apology and it because of a phone call. I think I had to apologize about 50 times by the time he was satisfied. I was in err and should have called him in that case, but I had already apologized 40 times before the blackmail email. I wont contact the parents then, and if he continues, I will contact the police. It's just really annoying right now, but yesterday was freaky when he followed me from my home to another town where I had an appointment. I know I was followed and the vehicle looked just like his, and I dove into the left lane on a three lane and last minute dove and made a right turn, and he followed, but I lost him over a hill and a dive into a residential area. I asked him when he appeared at my grocery store later in the day while I was shopping if it was him and he of course looked innocent and said it was not. I think he is monitoring me and taking notes maybe perhaps to inform my ex spouse? Or maybe for another blackmail attempt? I am on the verge of calling the police. Anymore following me and showing up where I am and that's it. I also have the blackmail email saved.
Annie susanawalsh is right, both about contacting the police and not his parents.
There was no way a narcissist would listen to his parents, a N does as he wants and only legal constraints may restrict them. Unless you have a custody battle involved in your divorce your character is irrelevant, and even then your character is is only relevant in regard to limited areas of your capacity to care for your child so the N is stalking you for his own reasons not to report on you. You should at least be documenting his stalking and have told him in clear terms to have no more contact with you. Your past has still an affect on you as you do not have the capacity to feel what other women being stalked would and be desperate to put a stop to this. You just don't really get it and aren't likely to do anything about it in time. The N is following you to work out your vulnerable times and places if he decides to harm you where it can look like it would be some other assailant, by place or your life style. If I can work out some of your style of dealing with matters and underestimating other things, he has by far more knowledge of all this about you In one way it's a strength your blithe attitude and in another it puts you at risk of losses. Material losses aren't important in the way taking risks with your well being are. While in parallel situations to yours a new boyfriend is sometimes at risk I think your's is safe because you are potentially an excellent target as you can't feel what's probably contemplated to be coming at you. I know you won't act, but your inability to feel the threats does at least avoid feeling overwhelmed by unease and anxiety so it will leave you clear headed in documenting his antics. If you do find it inconvenient enough the N's harrasment to suggest you will call the police on him (even as a bluff) you will have had to told him not to contact you first which the N knows. I have commented because your stalking is a good example for any others who may visit this site to take in issues of risks and possible actions, not because you will change in your ways of dealing with this.I am not judging you negatively in how I see what course you will take as you aren't really able to do otherwise.
Just one more thing annie, have you worked out if you do say things like apologising to him or anything else to appease him that he may be recording them if on a phone or even in person concealing a recording device , even just a mobile phone on record, or discuss in full anything he may use as evidence against you etc.. The same goes for emails, writing to him as a N is amazing in what they can use to incriminate you. Just any resonses to his contacts he may later use them as you were harrasing him after he told you to leave him alone. Of course that never happened in reality, but irrelevant to a N making up his case. Reread Sam's articles on this area after a break up.
Thanks you guys. I spent the weekend with my Mum, away from my home. I felt much stronger, and much more positive. Only to return home and find the ex N, waiting outside my door!
He wanted to talk.
Because I felt stronger, I felt I had the 'upper hand' and could handle him.
Which I did.
He talked about how things could be changed to improve the way we are together. I explained about NPD and he should take a look. I said his words never matched his actions. I didn't agree to get back together, but I did say, he needs to change the way he treats me, otherwise, I'm not interested at all. I'm not sure what is going to happen. He is calling over this evening for more 'chats'.
I am standing strong and will not change my mind until I actually see with my own eyes and feel inside that he is fighting for me and prepared to change.
If I didn't mean anything to him, would he make an effort?
He's a young 32yrs (I'm 29) and has moved from job to job, before working for 5 seasons in the mountains and Egypt. He has just started a 3 year degree in Acupuncture, so at last he is on track and doing something he has wanted to do for years. Maybe this will help him address issues and change the way he is a relationship, with someone he apparently loves!
We'll see. Thank you all again. xx
Hi snapper. Here's the thing: he probably does care about you. In the one case I've witnessed up close, I do believe the guy cared a lot for the girl. He thought about her, was affectionate and demonstrative with her when they were together. He was in awe of her. But these feelings left him feeling off balance, and he sabotaged the relationship with his behavior. I don't think narcissists fail to experience feelings. They just can't process them and reciprocate in a way that is healthy and satisfying for their partner.
I wish you all the best. I have no idea whether your guy has NPD – a shrink needs to make that call. I would just say one more thing. You mention that you won't give in until you see that he is fighting for you and prepared to change. Well, he is fighting for you, to keep you in his life. But I think you should hold off until you witness real change. He needs to convince you that he is a worthy partner by behaving in a loving and reliable way. I wouldn't let him back into your life until you've seen that happen.
Snapper you are the same age as my son & his partner (son turning 30 in April, her 29 february) next year. After an excellent 12 yrs together they are planning a baby for the following year, wedding in May & having a larger new home built to preceed baby. They are aware of recently the findings around delaying childbirth isn't the best much after thirty aside from a keen readiness to have a child.
If you want to have children you should only be investing in a mature caring male, not someome contemplating moving on to manhood career wise aside from learning about relationship expectations. If he is serious about getting a career now that will be enough of a demand on him to stick with something preceeding what he could then next cope with an offer a partner.Best case scenario he can offer parity in support of a family stage in 3 years.
I was, like many, fooled by if a male will bother to try and keep a woman in his life asuming it was love. Wrong it can have nothing to do with love, it can be lust, power, ego, practical ( resented) necessity of what can be gotten out of the woman while needed, revenge etc..If it was love he'd have treated you differently before as at 32 he is old enough to know how to show respect if you were a potential long term prospect in his mind.
You are finding what you wish was there. You can enjoy the burl of an affair with him accepting whatever happens if you have no ambitions to have children and a caring , loving stable partner to share this with. You may think you won't let him move in with you, but he can get portions of material aid out of you in meals, stay overs, your utilities and toilet paper etc.. See what happens if you don't assist materialy in any way. Mr charming may well end up easily anothers gigolo.
But enjoy him as you can if that's enough for you. I have no idea why he doesn't sound like a full on narcissist personality disorder (they are a severe danger for a womans well being both practically, psychologically and physical health), wether your not seeing that yet to report such signs, but he is definetly narcissisticly self centered and poor partner prospect, though at this stage an exciting affair with some boundaries on his behaviour. If an affair is what suits you for now, keep the boundaries while lightening up and enjoy him for the time he's around.
I am not sure if he is a narcissist or not. He never showed empathy when I was in pain. He would tell me what I should do and if I did not agree he just cut me off. He was famous for the silent treatment for days on end. He was critical of me a lot of the time. He blew up about things and when I would bring it up he would say he did not remember the incident. He would call me a whore and a slut and say he was joking. When he said hurtful things he would say I was too sensitive. He threw a dollar on the bed one morning and said that was for last night, when I told him that hurt he told me to leave if I didn't like it. He even peed on me in the shower and thought it was funny. I ended it several times but begged him to take me back, that is how lost I had become. We were engaged and he said he was moving in and one point he changed his mind but never told me until I asked what was going on. If I did something for my kids he told me I babied them. I finally gave the ring back after realizing he was nicer to other people than the woman he was engaged to. He never wanted to know anything about me, never asked about my work even when I had something big going on. He expected me to do things for his daughter but he never had an interest in mine. He told me if I ever gave the ring back I would never hear from him again, and I haven't. He would be late but I never could. He once told me I lit up a room in the end he looked at me like I was a piece of dirt. I am relieved I got out but there is this awful feeling that he took no responsibilty and knowing him he feels like the victim. He did spend a lot of money on the ring and I am sure he is more upset about that than anything else. Is this person a narcissist or close to one?
Thanks
Sorry I thought of a few more things that he did. He told me he would never change and the way he said it sent shivers up my spine, it had an evil tone, it scared me. I went to ask him something once and I stopped and he said “thats right if you ask me for it you won't get it”. He has a history of cutting people out of his life if he does not agree with them. He does not talk to half of his family. When I first met him he seemed so sensitive and so caring. I know a huge red flag was he told me he loved me within the first month. I did sleep with him too early and he reminded me of that when I broke up with him and I could not disagree. He often said things that left me confused and standing there with my mouth wide open. He told me he should be able to say whatever he wanted to the person he was in a relationship with and it was my interpratation that was the problem. I feel as I am writting this what the heck did I see in this guy? He was very good looking to me and he made me laugh like no one ever has. As time went on I never knew how he would be when I saw him it was like he had so many different personalities it kept me off balance. I no longer could be myself and I became a nervous wreck, I think he knew that and used it against me. He was also very paranoid triple checking to make sure doors were locked and belittled me if I ever left the garage door open. I just left it open when I knew he was omn his way over and found I always had to explain. During sex I was told to be quiet he even once asked me when we were just sitting outside if I ever shut up. I was so embarrassed.
With this one kmf there is utterly no doubt he was a narcissist.
The abusive behaviours don't always mean that your dealing with one, but the strategic use and his responses do, confirmed by the many personalities he'd display. My ex N ( my GP who'd treated him in the past turns out knew he was a NPDfound out after rid of N) did patallels to most you've included, the shifting personalities, the set ups, the type of abuse resulting in traumatic attatchment ( it does end though remaining attatched).
No he'll, as you've worked out, feel no loss aside from the material (his form of calculated investment to be able to use , abuse you with the goal of destroying you knowing he'd never have to follow through).
A narcissist personality disordered person cannot do or think or feel for another other than what you've noted. They can have the ability to be charming for a limited time, sometimes longer if it concerns persons they only deal with at a distance.Being close or involved over anything of importance with a narcissist is gauranteed to be a harmful experience. No one on any personal level matters to a narcissistic personality disordered person , just their utalitarian function at the time, only they matter to themselves. Nor can they percieve or react to the short comings of their patterns of behaviour.
As they age and over time they become less appealing and more distorted disfunctionally in their thoughts and perceptions with new options in partners declining and need to accept other scammers & women who are highly undesirable to eventual isolation.
In a way you are very lucky to have had been with a narcissist who still is attractive and can appear charming as such will let you go disappearing as if you never existed as you really didn't ever exist to him as an individual of any value .
The messy situations when narcissists attempt to return ( only to harm again, they don't forgive being told to go despite having no true interest in the former partner they'd already writen of as having no value as a human) when they find they can't get or keep a replacement as their latter boorish behaviours , self justifications have eroded the full extent of earlier social skills with self indulgrence combined to deteriorating their appearance.
These ones add intermitent chaos and even threats.
It's an awful sad awakening, incomprehensible that's appropriately since normal persons cannot comprehend them. Just learn what they are and that expecting anything human from them is as reasonable as trying to mate with an alligator or toxic snake wondering why they don't reciprocate your love in the typical healthy human relationship terms.
Hopefully you've learnt well about what indicates abuse now & any frailties wether from your past or the current circumstances left you more vulnreable. Though don't waste too much time pondering or blaming yourself as narcissists can do most people over if not knowing what they are.
As you recover you'll be safe if you refuse to engage with anything but men who are respectful of you in your feelings , needs and truly value you as a person consistently. It's what you want your children to learn. Accept nothing less from new persons in your life. Unfortunately our ties with kin may need to tolerate some degrees of abrasive behaviours that aren't usually intended to really hurt
While I wasn't that good at earlier stages coping with the attempted break ups, imaginining a loss, eventually when I did break free with no further contact I have utterly no feelings of loss, great relief and repulsed by the thought of him completely. And yes I can see the few odd things he very briefly did well or leasrnt from him.Though even those were never sustained or not later twisted to a weapon if he could and often did.
The pain your feeling is of the loss of an illusory man. The fact is you've lost a monster once disguised. The key for this to eventually have something constructive is that on the first instance a seemingly lovely man errs just once without sharing responsibility caringly and fully, you must show him the door at once. A number of intelligent normal women who have visited this site had found a second narcissist, not so much their failing but narcissists go for them,and these narcissist at first seem like some one who could be truly promising. Thats why the dump pronto on the first sign, easier then than later.
Once you convey a healthy firm self respect, independance no neediness then you'll attract a truly worthwhile partner or have a fullfilling positive life whilst single.
Karma may seem slow with narcissists, but due to the form of their disorder it's inevitable they will suffer ongoing losses unable to ever change. The rest of us as long as we don't deal with narcissists have degrees of constructive life options regarding the life aspects that are within our control.
I wish you all the best over this initially difficult stage. Just keep looking forward and not back aside from confirming what an evil ass he was.
Remeber that you're not an island, you, your kith & kin deserve a healthy you, uncontaminated by any narcissists or abusers. I believe we ought to give the good we can to others and can't if being drained by destructive relationships. Get as strong as you can on your own two feet and only accept partners that enrich your goodness so you can give positively and will also recieve positives.
Thanks so much for your wisdom. It helps to know his behavior has a name and that I am not crazy. When I read what I wrote it seems so obvious that he was an awful person, the misleading thing is how once in a blue moon he seemed loving. I did get to the point that I was repulsed to be near him but I was afraid to be alone. I think the being alone is what scares me. I am committed to spending quality time with myself and getting to know myself better. I do feel I should have left a lot sooner and should have listened to my gut feelings.
I know I will be much smarter the next time around. Things happen for a reason and I did walk away learning a lot.
Thanks again,
Kris
kmf, thanks for sharing your experience here. I can't tell you how relieved I feel knowing up front that this man is already out of your life. In my amateur opinion, he meets all the requirements for a narcissist. In fact, while many men have some narcissistic tendencies, most would not qualify for an official diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This guy sounds like a sociopath in his relationships.
Brigitte, I would just like to thank you so much for being here for every one of the women who finds this article and wants to share their story. It is incredibly generous of you to take time from your own life to support these women. Your knowledge and experience on this issues far surpasses mine, so I appreciate the source of wise counsel.
Kris, it's interesting that you were able to see him more objectively when you wrote your story down. I've said that to women before — write out your story and then read it. If you were reading that in a novel, or seeing it in a film, what would you think? Often, people are able to see their predicaments in a whole new light this way.
susanawalsh
Thanks for your acknowledgement. Ironically before I saw this note I'd been ready to respond on the diffs re your thoughts of sociopath vs narcissist.
With me any thing seen differently is never a criticism , or assume i may be more right, but want to share another angle. Equally am happy to ever hear any variance of views from yourself or others.
This site is & has been a huge help to me in seeing I'm not alone in what I've been through, so has the supportive encouragement you and others have given, I'm learning so much from what others have shared.
I'm stunned by how hard it was to get the clarity of what the ex N was, how much it also was contingent on my sons support and the deluded hopes and fears, the same reactions others are going through , the N's obstacle course etc till I really broke fully free of him.
Critical to it all was, the penny dropping, knowing he truly was primarily a NPD.
NPD means hopeless, pointless & dangerous with increasing losses every extra moment with an N in all life areas. If anything I do shortens a relationship with a N for other women with one by even a day I'll have achieved something of some good.
The length of time I was around the ex N did provide demos of everything there is to know about a true NPD. Though the personal cost wasn't worth this perfect synthesis of practice and theory.
And there are links to my mother in part to how I ended up with him and for so long.She wasn't the real N, but had some covert aspects of it in some familial areas, her responses to my father and especially with me
By the way you are knowledgable too, but reflect true understanding and mindful sensitivity to those coming here, recognising where women are at and when not ready to hear somethings emotionaly though you don't allow them to risk their safety. Thus in giving what is needed in emotional affermation they can feel safe, accepted anytime and revisit problems further down the track.Plus I've felt your having soothed someone means any of my mentioning some cold hard reality to remain mindful of can be held onto when your recipient is affirmed and feeling better.
SOCIOPATH or NPD ??
A true narcissistic personality disorder is frequentlY also called a malignant narcissist. Their behaviours do escalate to what you view as an extremely awful sociopath. My ex N did the lot kmf's did, just didn't expect silence in sex but brought in similar dampeners later.
Look at when criminals are evaluated & deemed primarily a NPD.
A sociopath while equally empty can actually have a more stable persona with alterations occuring for a set agenda and more consistency in their life patterns. Narcissists are largely a kaleidescope to others and even themselves with less stability in life pathways and relationships, despite their less apparent criminality.
That's why a narcissist often has no idea of what your complaining about in them not sustaining what they appeared to be before.
They can disappear and are brutal in their envy in bringing their closest down and in the need of controlling them.
Some sociopaths can sustain close normal appearing relationships with their immediate family, while victimising others.
The narcissist can't have anything resembling normality in his immediate family, but may better sustain distant aquintance type relationships.
Since I broke up with my N, who did all the same stuff kmf's ex did,
my GP who'd treated the ex N years ago, let me know he'd worked out he had NPD then.
It helps to read forensic articles and the extensive blog s contained in “Narcissist Suck”, where you can see how truly awful narcissistic personality disorder is from those who had NPD parents. Thus a lengthier time of exposure to Ns by not having the option to quit them after a shorter time or any option as children growing up.
The narcissist does evil things, though rarely with the actual conscious intent to do some one over- aside exploiting a target for most often material gain justified by his sense of personal entitlement.
The narcissist enacts evil , can plan some to sustain his balance re control , issues from envy, all impacted by his distorted justifications. This is mostly without it having many alternative components of thrills or amusement in hurting the victim ( N is doing it for neccessity).
This happens along the way of being dissatisfied by partners & family members.
Sociopaths are well aware of what they can or will or want to do to meet their needs, to whom and generally why.
Sociopaths don't privately care about being good.
Most narcissists are self righteous , feel entitled and feel their victims are the blame deserving their derogatory valuation and treatment.
Both will publicly attempt justifying their conduct and lie about their culpability, though the narcissist tends to believe his own lies far more.Some narcissists have ended up serial killers, but most would be hopeless compared to the sociopathic ones. Their shifting selves could forget the type of victim, killing style etc,. failing to have an identifiable pattern. Narcissists can't sustain most tasks, aside from a few compulsive obssesive behaviours of shopping, hoarding & addictions,
The odd sociopath can make a good husband functionally wheras no narcissist can ever for any lenth of time.
The N is underlyingly chaotic in nearly everything, totally impossible in close relationships.The N is actually crazier and more dangerous to have on your side than a sociopath.
If the sociopath deems you to be on his side, and sees you as that you'll be ok. Not the N, on his side & close to him he needs to push you away yet control you and any acceptance of the N's demands means they aren't enough unless you end up a truly empty shell & then too pathetic for him.
At least a sociopath knows what he wants from some one & in the type of circumstances etc..
What can complicate things is that there are often comorbidities in personality disorders.
What's fascinating about those with NPD is how similar they are to one another, their behaviours, patterns and traits. The only variations amongst them occur is in their capacity to obtain new supply in how they react to old supply. And even these are predictable.
The hard thing to work out is the next exact trick they will try and format around their chosen discrete reactions during and at/after the end of relationships, as they can defy logic .
Though once you expect that, you are on the way to decoding an individual N's likely macro responses, not the micro ones as the N often has no more idea himself untill near the event sussing out (even unconciously) the most disturbing response in an interpersonal interaction.
AHH memories of the things said and done by the dear old Ns of days gone by (thankfully)…………………………………………………………………………
I'll admit a sadistic psychopath that decides you're his victim is the ultimate scary, he really knows what he wants to do, that's when consistency isn't good at all for a victim.
As I read the other posts I am confused on the fact that my ex never tried to contact me again. Another thing is he has held the same good job for 17yrs and comes across as a shy quiet man. The creepy thing he did was once his daughter and I got close, and he bragged about that to others, all of a sudden he did not want her close to me. He was also cruel to his daughter, he would call her moron and retard. I feel so sorry for her, after I broke up with him she called me and begged me to come back. Even if I had wanted to go back (and I didn't) he would never have taken me back. I think he knew I was very unhappy and he became even meaner to me. My family thought he wanted out of the relationship and did stuff to force me to end it. I don't know, and it is sort of funny I really never knew what he was thinking. Is another symptom of these people if you say black they say white. It even seemed like his opinions flip flopped. I really have to say I was so shocked by his behavior. Funny thing my kids caught on before I did that he was no good. I will never do that to my kids again. I hope it is okay to keep putting my thoughts out here I still can tell I have some questions as I read what other people have wrote.
Thanks,
Kris
kmf it's good your putting down your thoughts and questions. That is both for yourself, writing does clarify what one's been through and what was not acceptable to endure then or ever again. At the same time for us others who read your contributions learn a lot as well, strengthening their understanding of the impact of dealing with a narcissist entails.
What is amazing is how alike true narcissists are in their behaviour and tactics of abuse as well as the impact they have on the non narcissist partner.
In the end I've found that one has a truer grasp of what are narcissist by hearing from real women, positive bright caring ones like yourself and most that seem to end up on this site in combination with factual/clinical etc descriptions about them.
Narcissists abuse has a stranger impact than the damage done by the self- centered male who is not a narrcissistic personality disorder (NPD).
A person with NPD has so little of any sustained anything inregard to a personality, values, actions or capacity to bond, or empathise with another. Attatchment potential to another human being is also zero
They cannot stand another having any level of happiness or stability in their lives with it only creating envy to eradicate whatever was positive or acceptable in their partner's life. Their increasinginly getting briefer moments of pleasantness are only to retain the services of the other that in some way they need to take back by a following cruelty as the partner is not meant to keep feeling happy. And every attempt a partner makes at keeping the relationship workable is a problem for them.
The horror of the implicit two way street for them (only being comfortable with a one way), as then arises the frustration of feeling their controlling everything is undermined if they need to meet anothers expectations equally. Then can come for the narcissist one of the most disturbing triggers the ensuing fury they will feel if they were directly told some behaviours of theirs are not appropriate in a relationship & requiring correction.
This last one is seen as requiring punishment in some form and is never forgiven or forgotten.
Then there is their unceasing projection of all their faults on to the partner. Furthermore they are never ever wrong and all problems and issues are the 100% fault of the partner. And most of all you don't exist as a person to them with the slightest concept of your having (or worse still the rights to express these) your own feelings, preferences , thoughts & relationships to others. Bring these before the narcissist you'll at best be ignored and next disparaged from , crazy, twisted to evil for sharing & expecting some acknowledgement.
The rest of the time they will lie to you about most things and deny anything that can suggest any inconsistency or impropriety on their part no matter how clear evidence for such things can be.
Another problem is that to feel secure about themselves looking good they need to bring you down in every way by hurting you at every aspect of your being, mentally, emotionaly , physicaly & socialy discrediting you. They will already be be doing this even during the stage you are apparently very much in love with them.
It is very difficult to describe how & why, to others as well as ourselves, how we could be so intensly attatched and devestated by a narcissistic partner when having seemed to endure a ridiculous amount of appalling behaviours from them. I think the bit below (taken from another site and writer)contains the explanatory elements:
“A significant factor in keeping people 'attached' even whilst they know they are being sucked dry or their existence threatened is betrayal bonding.
Uncontrollable disruptions or distortions of attachment bonds precede the development of post-traumatic stress syndromes. People seek increased attachment in the face of danger. Adults, as well as children, may develop strong emotional ties with people who intermittently harass, beat, and, threaten them. The persistence of these attachment bonds leads to confusion of pain and love. Trauma can be repeated on behavioural, emotional, physiologic, and neuroendocriniologic levels. Repetition on these different levels causes a large variety of individual and social suffering.
Hostages have put up bail for their captors and have expressed a wish to marry them. People seek increased attachment in the face of danger or threat of danger. “
If you are still able to or want to you might see if and what points I included were ever carried out by your ex Narcissist. Yet don't try this if you feel that such recollections could activate feelings of strong distress in yourself and your safer in not thinking much more about him .I don't want to have suggested an interesting exercise that could be fine at one point is overwhelming at an earlier stage or unsuitable for some. That I don't know for others. I used to find it actuallyconsoling getting a better picture aside from being sickened by it at the same time. Confusion was always more distressing than being horrified and sickened by most truths for me .
On the otherhand, others can only cope with knowing enough, that is to to accept he & the supposed relationship were really badly screwed, stuff why, just work on recovery & moving on.The latter is also a very sensible response.
Hope your feeling better & stay kind to yourself.
Wow, your description does something I would have never thought possible, and that's make a sociopath look good, relatively speaking.
kmf it's good your putting down your thoughts and questions. That is both for yourself, writing does clarify what one's been through and what was not acceptable to endure then or ever again. At the same time for us others who read your contributions learn a lot as well, strengthening their understanding of the impact of dealing with a narcissist entails.
What is amazing is how alike true narcissists are in their behaviour and tactics of abuse as well as the impact they have on the non narcissist partner.
In the end I've found that one has a truer grasp of what are narcissist by hearing from real women, positive bright caring ones like yourself and most that seem to end up on this site in combination with factual/clinical etc descriptions about them.
Narcissists abuse has a stranger impact than the damage done by the self- centered male who is not a narrcissistic personality disorder (NPD).
A person with NPD has so little of any sustained anything inregard to a personality, values, actions or capacity to bond, or empathise with another. Attatchment potential to another human being is also zero
They cannot stand another having any level of happiness or stability in their lives with it only creating envy to eradicate whatever was positive or acceptable in their partner's life. Their increasinginly getting briefer moments of pleasantness are only to retain the services of the other that in some way they need to take back by a following cruelty as the partner is not meant to keep feeling happy. And every attempt a partner makes at keeping the relationship workable is a problem for them.
The horror of the implicit two way street for them (only being comfortable with a one way), as then arises the frustration of feeling their controlling everything is undermined if they need to meet anothers expectations equally. Then can come for the narcissist one of the most disturbing triggers the ensuing fury they will feel if they were directly told some behaviours of theirs are not appropriate in a relationship & requiring correction.
This last one is seen as requiring punishment in some form and is never forgiven or forgotten.
Then there is their unceasing projection of all their faults on to the partner. Furthermore they are never ever wrong and all problems and issues are the 100% fault of the partner. And most of all you don't exist as a person to them with the slightest concept of your having (or worse still the rights to express these) your own feelings, preferences , thoughts & relationships to others. Bring these before the narcissist you'll at best be ignored and next disparaged from , crazy, twisted to evil for sharing & expecting some acknowledgement.
The rest of the time they will lie to you about most things and deny anything that can suggest any inconsistency or impropriety on their part no matter how clear evidence for such things can be.
Another problem is that to feel secure about themselves looking good they need to bring you down in every way by hurting you at every aspect of your being, mentally, emotionaly , physicaly & socialy discrediting you. They will already be be doing this even during the stage you are apparently very much in love with them.
It is very difficult to describe how & why, to others as well as ourselves, how we could be so intensly attatched and devestated by a narcissistic partner when having seemed to endure a ridiculous amount of appalling behaviours from them. I think the bit below (taken from another site and writer)contains the explanatory elements:
“A significant factor in keeping people 'attached' even whilst they know they are being sucked dry or their existence threatened is betrayal bonding.
Uncontrollable disruptions or distortions of attachment bonds precede the development of post-traumatic stress syndromes. People seek increased attachment in the face of danger. Adults, as well as children, may develop strong emotional ties with people who intermittently harass, beat, and, threaten them. The persistence of these attachment bonds leads to confusion of pain and love. Trauma can be repeated on behavioural, emotional, physiologic, and neuroendocriniologic levels. Repetition on these different levels causes a large variety of individual and social suffering.
Hostages have put up bail for their captors and have expressed a wish to marry them. People seek increased attachment in the face of danger or threat of danger. “
If you are still able to or want to you might see if and what points I included were ever carried out by your ex Narcissist. Yet don't try this if you feel that such recollections could activate feelings of strong distress in yourself and your safer in not thinking much more about him .I don't want to have suggested an interesting exercise that could be fine at one point is overwhelming at an earlier stage or unsuitable for some. That I don't know for others. I used to find it actuallyconsoling getting a better picture aside from being sickened by it at the same time. Confusion was always more distressing than being horrified and sickened by most truths for me .
On the otherhand, others can only cope with knowing enough, that is to to accept he & the supposed relationship were really badly screwed, stuff why, just work on recovery & moving on.The latter is also a very sensible response.
Hope your feeling better & stay kind to yourself.
Wow, your description does something I would have never thought possible, and that's make a sociopath look good, relatively speaking.
I keep commenting! I'm learning so much from this site, so I want to say thank you. I plan to first catch up with articles that interest me, and then continually keep up with the blog.
Ok, so here it goes.
What is the best way to avoid a narcissist?
* Make an effort to identify them based on their history. Narcissists leave a trail of heartbreak, deception and unmet expectations.
I feel like in college, this could be hard. At least with the guys I've been with, they've had previous relationships in high school, and it seems like they are still friends with those girls. If I meet them, it's hard to find out about other girls they were with in college, because I'm not going to ask them outright, especially when my college is very large and it's hard to meet everyone. If I don't know their previous gfs/hookups, I have to figure it out on my own.
* Don’t let a suspected narcissist talk his way in. They will often try to cover their insensitive and deceitful behavior by claiming that there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding. It is always the other person’s fault.
Ugh. Ok so I was with this guy and we were walking back from a party and it was FREEZING. He was wearing a long sleeve shirt and a sweatshirt while I had on a halter top. I've been hooking up with him and IIII had to be the one to ask if I could borrow his sweatshirt. He said no, and then the next day when I asked him why he was like, oh it was just a joke, if you would have asked again, I definitely would have given it to you. I promise!! What a JERK! You don't joke about that when it is below freezing in upstate NY at 3am and you have on LAYERS. I gave him one more chance. He let me borrow his sweatshirt the next time, but when I was done with it I texted him saying I would give it back. He never texted back, so I assumed things were over and gave it to his roommate who I sit next to in class.
collegegirl, I love all your comments! I am so pleased that my posts resonate for you.
It can be very, very hard to know the reputation of someone you've had no previous connection with. If you meet someone at college, or afterwards, who is completely new to your social circle, you may not have any information about their prior relationships. In that case, you have to observe their behavior very carefully. If something doesn't feel quite right, or if they seem selfish, pay close attention. Go with your gut feeling. A narcissist will focus on getting their own needs met without a lot of attention to yours. You should see signs of real caring and empathy from day one. If you don't, stop wasting your time.
Re sweatshirt guy: Douche! That is so rude. Talk about a lack of chivalry! He should have offered, not refused! I'm glad you assumed things were over when he never texted back. Next time, I hope you will decide things are over when a guy treats you poorly. Regardless of how he is feeling, you have every right to make a decision that you're done, no matter how he tries to laugh it off later.
WOW….I've finally found a site that surrounds my dilemma. I dont even know if there is enough space to illustrate my saga. I met my ex-N in 2008 while in a training class for work. I'd never seen him before in our agency, and I'd been there for 21 years then. We exchanged business cards, and the whirlwind began. I was swept off of my feet, I'll admit. OMG…..I was completely WOOOED by, sweet texts, phone calls, emails, he cooked for me, had bubble baths waiting for me, catered to my every need, dinners at expensive restaurants, eves of one-on-one basketball at the park….just good times. Trusted me enough to leave me in his house, when he left for work. I was blown away. He asked me where had I been hiding, cause he's been waiting all of his life for a woman like me; even told me he loved me, and asked my ring size approximately 1 month of dating. Although he kept in constant contact with me, I can recall several occasions of not being able to reach him via both of his cellphones; he didnt have a house phone, and was a delay in responding to my text. Once contact was made, it was always an excuse or explanation. Red Flag#1 that I ignored. Then more attention came, then the disappearing acts always reappeared. I found myself always expressing my frustrations about not being able to get in contact with him. I had suggested ending things several times, but he always was able to weasle his butt back in my good graces. Me, a very strong and independent female who has the reputation of not putting up with anyone bullcrap, just couldnt get this man to understand that I was not for his mess. I had contstant notions that he wasnt being straight up with me, and possible was involved with other women. However, I wasnt sure, but his actions were not corroborating what his mouth was saying. So much uncertainty was coming from him, where I really couldnt believe anything he was telling me. There were times he was a now show at my house, after conveying he was coming after work; then I wouldnt hear anything from him til the next day; where he would candidly say he was sleep and didnt hear his phone. He was very persistent with not allowing me to end things, and ignore his phone calls. On one occasion he called me 48 times, back to back on my cell phone, house phone and work phone…..and wouldnt quit until I answered. Instead of thinking, Red Flag, I believed that he must really care about me. So, approximately, 6 months dating, he disappeared and I wasnt able to reach him by phone, I rode over to his house; and guess what…..he wasnt home…. 3 am in moring. When he got my email the next morning and I let him know how pissed I was that I wasnt able to reach him , he apologized and said he was tired and had fallen asleep. Then I let him know that I came over to his house and he wasnt sleeping at home, and to leave me alone bacause I cant stand a liar. This is when the traits of NPD began….. He became upset and everything became my fault. I was wrong for popping up at HIS house, HE's not a child and dont need a babysitter, HE doesnt appreciate me coming to his house, violating his personal space, and so on and so on…..Im insecure, I shouldnt be checking up on him, I've emasculated HIM, I will not treat him like HE's 12, and dont ever pop up at HIS house again, unless Im invited. I had never been subjected to the amount of BS this man offered. I then cut him off cause I wasnt going to allow him to disrespect me. Then I was crazy enough to let him back in, and then I let my guard down, and for some reason that Ive yet to understand, I fell in love with him. And when my actions and expectations revealed that….all I got from him was distance, disappointment and heartache. Whenever I asked him after not seeing him for bout a week, if we could go out, watch a movie at his house or mine, or just get together like normal couples since he was off, and (since he worked crazy hours)…..all i got as a response was…”I'll have to see, I have somethings I need to take care of.” If I asked like what? It started by him just hanging up in my ear, leaving me completely in shock that he'd be so rude. After time, the rages appeared, the disappearing acts continued, and the distance grew greater. But he always wanted/had to know where I was, what I was doing, or my pending plans, ect..ect.. No more being treated like a queen, infact, I was wondering why the hell does he want me in his life, and why the hell am I still here. I was beginning to lose it….constantly crying, questioning my judgment, wondering what happened to me, as to why I dont see the writing on the wall. The let down of work always coming before me, excuses of why we couldnt be together on his days off, secrets, lack of respect, constantly blaming me for everything that happened when all I was trying to do was bring us closer. Not to mentioned he never introduced me to his parents, who were seperated and he never wanted to accompany me to any functions, or family gatherings at all. He could never plan anything in advance, everything always had to be last minute. I hated that. Always had to see what his work schedule was looking like, and would never check. When asked again, he still hadnt checked, and said again he would let me know, and then he decide at last minute that he cant go, and most of the time, it wasnt even because of work. It seemed to me that he just enjoyed seeing me disappointed and hurting. Our sex life was practically non-existent. And when it did occurr, it was short lived, (3 minutes at the most) and without passion. And every encounter ended with me going to my GYN a week later for a BV infection. This is So embarrassing, but Im glad I have somewhere to write about my feelings and emotions that have been stomped and ignored by a person who didnt deserve my love. But he wouldnt allow for me to move on. I then found out that he had dated another co-worker who worked in the same office as I did, infact found out that he had dated several females within the agency, but didnt care to share that information with me. And when I asked him about the past relationships, his response was always defensive, and directed towards me checking up on him. Then that would lead to him not communicating with me for several hours or days. This man would lie to you in the face, and expect for you to believe him. If you didnt, and questioned him, or prove that he's lying, he would throw a temper tantrum like a out of control child….hitting walls, dashboard of my car, slamming my car door, kicking my shoe boxes, and just yelling and spitting….saying he gotta get away from me before he does something to hurt me. For some reason, his threats of physical abuse didnt scare me, and when he realiZed that, he tore me down emotionally, verbally and mentally. At this time, I had no idea what NPD was. I just figured this man was scared of love, and afraid of being abandoned like he says his father did to him, his brother and mother. But I realized that wasnt my fault, and wondered why he continued to treat me like I was trash. But, I really wondered what was going on with me..I was losing time at work because of sleepness night of crying and arguing….couldnt concentrate, I was a complete mess. Nothing I did was good enough. Wanted to plan a weekend getaway for Mother's Day. I knew he was off because of the Unit I work in at the agency. He became upset because he felt I was again checking up on him, and when he was off was his business. He then refused to tell me where he was going, or who he was going with. Said he needed a trip alone to award himself for all of the long hours he put in at work. When I asked, “What about me wanting to go away with him?” He said that this trip was for him. He did the same thing to me for Father's Day when I wanted to take him away. He went into one of his rages, and began screaming and hollering on the phone, hangup….call back scream and hollar so more….hang up, and come to find out, later in the week he had left town without telling me. I was completely devestated then. So I called his brother who I had known for sometime, and explained to him what I had been enduring with his brother. And he told me, “I thought you were what he needed, a strong woman who could handle him.” He said, “Dee, I love my brother, and I'll never say anything bad about him, but my brother isnt worth the pain and torture I hear in your voice.” “So look at this day, and put it behind you, and Run; you deserve someone who's gonna do right by you, not gonna hurt you.” I then found out he had been driving another female's car, when his was in shop, and after I offered mine to use. When I approached him about that, it was my fault that I found out, and it was none of my business who car he had. He once ignored my cries for help when I was sick, until I was hospitalized, and he appeared right away. He said that he thought I was trying to get his attention by saying I was sick.
The most scariest thing that made me realize that something was definitely wrong with this person Im in love with is when I noticed the lack of communication, distance and constant disappointment was wearing on me and taking its toll. I wanted to talk, seriously, and make a final decision cause this relationship was ruining me and my spirit. So I called him on phone. He said he was at work and couldnt discuss our relationship at that time. I just needed to have some closure, so I pressed on. He suddenly hung up on me, and then refused to answer when I calleded back. And against my better judgement, I went to his office. Once he saw me in his office, a look of disgust appeared on his face. He asked why was I there. I explained that I needed to get some things off of my mind. He leaned over the desk, and he stated, ” I should punch you in your motherfucking face, (balling up his fist) for coming over here to my job with your drama!” I then continued to explain to him my position, but his focus was about me coming to his job. At that time, a co-worker opened the door, and my ex switched like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, right before my eyes. He put on the demeanor in front of his co-worker like we were haveing a happy and decent conversation. I was so in shock about my ex's tranformation that my mouth had dropped wide open, where I couldnt even speak. I then walked out of his office, and havent ever returned there to this day. He immediately began texting me telling me that I had destroyed the rest of his day, and I had no business coming to his job (even though I always went there, as we work for the say law enforcement agency.) I was devestated when I returned back to work, and a friend of mine stated she was tired of seeing me go through this, and I needed to be informed of something. Later that evening, after several horrible text messages and voicemails from my ex, I was contacted by another co-worker who informed me that she had been in a relationship with my ex-N twice. Once approx. 10 years ago, but ended when he was cheating on her with 2 other women, and most recently, while he had been involved with me. She stated that when she found out about me, she had been back seeing him for approx 17 months. So he had been seeing us both for 9 months that Id been involved with him. That explained a lot. After getting drunk and drowing in my sorrows, I called him and left a nasty vm on his phone letting him know that I knew he had been seeing me and the other co-worker. He called about 20 times, but I refused to answer my phone. So he left several vm messages, saying I was stupid for listening to her, misery loves company, and that I can keep on listening to my co-worker, and to love her since I listen to her so much and believe what she says. Everything was my fault. He never once took responsibility for any of his wrong-doings. He once told me, that he has never done anything to cause problems in our relationship, and he also says, “Im not perfect, but Im the closest thing to it.”
I know this is long, and theres plenty more torment that Ive endured that I can continue writing about, including finding out about 2 other women he had relationships with during the time I was seeing him. But I hope this give a vivid picture of the last almost 2 years of my life. I have tried several times to break things off, so that I can escape his wrath and regain some normalcy in my life. Im currenty in therapy every week with a counselor, in hopes of regaining my self-worth, cause he has destroyed me. I have currently began No Contact, and its still hard for me, but Im determined to WIN! But it hurts so bad. Just cant believe an individual could break me down like this. Ive always been strong, independant, and respected by family and peers, then to be hurt by this man I gave my heart to who turned out to be so cruel and vicious, and would never show an ounce of remorse. Any feedback is appreciated. Sorry that its so long.
Thanks,
An Emotionally Unavailable Female
I am so sorry for what you went through, I can relate. Please try with all you have to never make contact with him again and if he tries to contact you please stay away from him, that is when you will start to get some of your power back. I actually made the mistake of getting engaged to mine and it has taken me 7 months to finally smile again. I swear you will find yourself again but it takes time. When you have been so caught up in crazy persons world you forget what normal is. I will say I had to work really hard to heal but I refused to let him take anymore of me. Please hang in there and take it minute by minute until you can take it day by day. It will get better but be kind to yourself and don't blame yourself. Normal good people never imagine that there are people like this and you can't believe what you see them do or say, it's not human. One day you will thank your lucky stars you got out. Read as much as you can and read it over and over because it reinfoces that you are fine and they are not. I wish you the best.
Kris
EUF, thanks for sharing your story here. That is a terrible, terrible tale and I'm very sorry you lived it. He sounds so toxic. PLEASE work hard to have no contact, don't give in. He will destroy you if you give him the chance, and he will have no remorse. He is incapable of it. Seeing a counselor is great – keep up the good work, and rely on friends and family to support you.
I really feel for you in having been so unfortunate to crossed paths with a narcissist when you did.
A huge part of the problem they pose is the type of attatchement that results from a period of involvement with them “traumatic bonding” that seems to include even bio chemical imbalances from the stress-it's cited from another writer in some of my earlier replies here- the explanation helps you stop blaming or questioning how you could be so attatched to one like him who repeatedly maltreats you. Obviously as a consequence of that you'll find yourself having remained or re engaging after break ups for a length of time that surprises yourself and former kin & kith.
Though eventually you know enough to realise you need to get away and stay away from him, utterly no further contact of any type.
You have really done well to go at this time, better than many others as it seems its around then it is a tougher time, long enough to know go but a bit too long to be in good enough states to do it as decisively as needed.
Your getting counselling, and support was smart, just refine” your no contact”, and revise/reframe your outlook a bit more. You want to make the most of every counselling $$s.
So in future do not even to tell him that you found out the specifics of what you or blind Freddy could tell before, that he was seeing another woman.
A narcissist is so bad that you get utterly nowhere that will end up constructive by trying to do anything about him – to him – or by discussing him with others (who he knows).
The only exception is any statement -just once- interpersonaly for establishing or protecting the no contact needed, then legally if he persists.
If ever another woman tries to talk to you about him, avoid it if you can, aside from where it's obvious she needs the support of confirming some facts and a bit of compassion if clearly hurting.
From now on shut him down as ever having existed, as the man you fell in love with was never there, just this an alien illusion.
The realisation that he is a Narcissist really ends all further questions around how could he or why did he treat you so and any more tears about anything to do with him. What he is as a narcissist explains everything in what he does in relationships as the level of compassion a starving giant crocodile would do with you in a swamp.
Your left with the shock and healing from the damage done to your nervous/ endocrine etc. systems from the stress endured dealing with him.
I've no idea of your life situation and I'm only guessing that underlyingly you may have had some touches of occasional uncertainty of what life had for you from 40, especially regarding relationships – very normal- and collided with a predator scenting the touch of vulnerability.
There is no need to be emotionaly unavailable to others as long as you become aware of any slight frailty you may have wether be it situational or from the past, the eitiology matters not that much but what things can make you vulnerable to live outside of your value system expectations.
Just please don't ever call him, email him, sms him, reply to him, discuss him with others linked to him, avoid, ignore and thank God for your release in his very overt expressions in not valuing you( none are valued ever at any stage as individuals ), even much as narcissistic supply. For he had other supply options around.
A few years down the track as his hunting ground is ongoingly the same it catches up the knowledge about him with less narcissistic supply options.So he'd be as awful, but more focused in trapping and damaging you before discarding.
Narcissist don't appreciate a partner more when they get harder to replace just have more energy to put into whatever they will do to a partner and it won't be nice..
The best thing from an individual stance about the betraying multiplle partnered narcissists, is their cruelty is scattered amongst more and will let you go without being overly threatening & intense in any of his pursuit ( not from love but from controll so he can do the dumping) .
I hope what I've put is understandable and may add to anything of any use.
Wishing you a healthy speedy recovery.
Oh my goodness I am so glad I found this site. Everything said here describes perfectly how I feel. I have looked at many many many articles about narcissists, their traits, stories, experiences, and information and this site definitely hit it head on.I truly believe my boyfriend [soon to be ex..] has this psychological disease. It is so hard because I know deep down he is a really good person [i'm sure there are many things going on inside his head that i don't know and could alter that decision]. It all seems so scary to me.
We worked together and fell in love @ a coffee shop [was blinded by his then love and passion] he had a girlfriend at the time but we were just emotionally attached, he then broke up with her after about a year and went straight to me [another sign i've read-- needing to be in a relationship]. I know this was not a good way to start a relationship but we were in love. 2 weeks after starting to date I had a stroke (@ 19, crazy I know] and he was by my side [although, a rough start to our relationship]. He was there by my side through it all. Then things started changing, very slowy, but they did change. I didn't realize it at the time. We were getting in constant fights, I thought it was my fault- that I was crazy. But I now know that isn't true. Anyway, he got different- I have always been an independent person [don't get me wrong, we spent a lot of time together, we live together, which makes this even harder} A lot of people see traits like this of James and mention them to me, they of course don't connect him with this disease– but I see the traits and It makes me reassured even more that this is true. My being independent must have affected him: he suddenly didn't like my friends, didn't like my hobbies, turned very needy.
Also, I forgot to mention that he has told me that he grew up in a family in which he always needed to be perfect and it bugged him. Now knowing his family, quite well I see MANY characteristics of this disease in his mom.
I wish this break up was going to be easier, it's our one year anniversary tomorrow which makes it even harder. He has been distant lately- like he knows its coming. I need to do it sooner than later. I have a counselor appt. on Tuesday so I am on my way out…Wish me luck. Send some good karma my way! Best.
peacelovecj, yes! Good for you! I'm glad you're not writing this after years of heartache, as some other women have done. You were smart to find a counselor – you will need objective support. Best of luck, we'll be thinking of you. You can do this!
peacelovecj it's good to hear that this forum is stimulating you to recognise when a relationship isn't constructive for you and recognising behaviours of a man that isn't ready to be in one having unresolved issues resulting in negative reactions, especially discomfort with the others independence.
I think there are two valuable aspects coming out of this forum:
The first being the problems, dangers and confusion experienced by women involved with narcissists who will never change – at least for the better. Involvement with narcissists very frequently ends up being highly damaging from the multiple forms of abuse they enact with their partner so it's important to facilitate the recognition of them and understand the only solution is no contact. The sharing and support in this forum can be invaluable as I have found at any stage of the “narcissist experience”, the start , the middle, the ending phase and consoldating recovery when it is over( that's when we have kept up seriously no contact despite the narcissist's attempts at odd pop ups).
The second valuable aspect is the affirmation of the unacceptability of enduring any form of abuse and disrespectful treatment from any partner who may not have a narcissistic personality disorder through whatever their cause. Wether it's simply not realy loving or liking the woman, immaturity, substance abuse issues, warped cultural or familial views of a womans role that allow cruel responses or other psychopathological conditions. Narcissistic abuse is so extreme ( even when parts appear subtle) and multifaceted they cover the whole spectrum of abuses possible with the absence of empathy or concience with the pain and damage becoming very clear consequences after the initial confusion. The way women wake up to commence recovery is by looking at each discrete abuse the narcissist did and acknowledging how painful and innapropriate these abuses are to be done to them and equally to tolerate them therby he has to go.No contact for a real narcissist while that may not necessarily need to be so with some other unsuitably badly behaved males needing definetly a full clear break up for good.
The healthy thing is that you like some others who are in a negative abusive relationship are troubled enough by this -and should be- start exploring looking for affirmations of your healthy relationship expectations and recognising pathological relationship behaviours of partners who are not prepared or able to treat you well, rather disrespectfuly abusive and themselves self centered. All forms of abuse in relationships are harmful and unnaceptable. Also relationships where there is no true compatability and where either party is just staying around where their partner is just a gap filler end up frustrating ,resentful, conflictual and will end up abusive in some ways especially as their isn't any mutual respect for the partner or self for hanging around.
You could find susanawalsh's writings on relationships in the rest of hooking up sections helpful in getting and having positive relationships as well as understanding the pros and cons of choices in the dating game. I think her writings are excellent. Perfect for your new begining.
I think for a young woman you have wisely worked out this relationship needs to end. It is seriously impaired and potentially damaging. He may not be a narcissist but he has started to show signs that indicate he is not ready for any healthy relationship with you or most likely anyone. Men who have emotional relationship issues and are younger ( immature) will parallel narcissistic behaviours, especially if they are not ready to cope with a relationship. His neediness ( very worrying regarding consequences of controlling a partner) is what seems to drive him to involvements beyond his capacity to cope and not find the level of just interacting socially with women until he's learnt more about himself and dealing with women. It isn't helpful to remain with him, it's only pushing his faults further by his negative reactions to dealing with what he isn't equiped with.
Most break ups have initial sadness and loss as their usually were some good parts and even some love shared ( not with a real narcissist though who never loved the partner, only the partner who had loved him or what she thought was him) . But break ups happen because “its broken” now and at least one party realises this, like a crystal glass landing on a tiled floor you realises can't be repaired. (Break ups re broken allusion borrowed from another writers excellent book title)
Glad your seeing a counsellor who can be good for consolidating your choices, clarifying and supporting you.
If your hunch that your boyfriend has something like a personality disorder by feeling there is something more extreme than immaturity take a look at borderline personality disorder. Has a number of parallels to a narcissistic personality disorder but they are the more needy, prompt relationship getters and react very badly to percieved abandonment while similarily selfish and abusive etc.,Plus they don't ever get better either and are hellish to be with.
Narcissists are generally more aloof and are after “narcissistic supply” and some other forms of attention/admiration can suffice between relationships. If they are suggesting devestation around relationship ends they are usually acting to manipulate so they can control and dump. Their only pain is the shock of underestimating the partners pain and frustration plus remaining sanity to go.
Bordelines display neediness. Narcissists will get critical of the partners friends and activities but are too up themselves to follow that with frequent displays of needy behaviour where a bordeline has no hesitation with that, well actually is so a lot of the time. Wheras a narcissist they will sabotage daily life looking as if they are in control so the partner cannot keep up with their friends and be eventually too exhausted and ashamed by the chaos they are in to keep up with past contacts. The narcissist will usualy try to pal up with some of your friends to disceredit you in what way he can to consolidate your being isolated.
If you find that he looks more like a bordeline ( they are similar)
I think that the sites on coping with narcissists are actually better still to stick with as most of the sites on borderlines are more desciptive about the bordeline and not as definitive about how to view their pointlesness to relate to or how to cope with them and abuse in general.
Understanding personality disorders is useful in recognising the problematic people who cannot ever realy improve compared to the people who have developed defensively poor behaviours but would prefer to fix these so they can have better relationships. The latter fixables are relevant only in an established relationship especially with children or clearly a close relationship which is already mutually loving bar specific problems. Wheras the personality disorders are needed to be left regardless of children as in fact it's protecting the children from damage via exposure contamination of a personality disordered parent.
Also be careful regarding your personal safety as some of these types of men can end up becoming violent if they realise you mean over is over. His being quieter may be a sad helpless resignation from sensing the end or keeping to himself what he has in store for you if you do dare go.
If he hits the suicidal gesture thing,( doesn't matter if it looks like just threats or only acting out a gesture at worst ( gestures can go wrong and suceed inadvertantly) or chance of the real thing, remember that it's not or ever would be your responsability – his choice.
But, still the second he suggests that, or looks like he may try, you immediatly refer him to psychiatric services to be assesed promptly with no further involvement. The services can work out his risk, if any, and if so the services are responsible to contain that, NOT YOU EVER.
Borderlines are more inclined to go for suicide gestures unlike Narcissists who never do and very rarely suggest they may only if they believe their partner is extremely sensitive to being overwhelminly distressed by it and give in to anything, even then it's too beneath them , often even to conceptualise this.Still report to a psychiatric team even if your positive it's a narcissist not likely to do it as he'd be so humiliated ( shouldn't have said it) he'd never try that again.
Where in a few areas suicidal gestures were thought to occur with narcissists they were not primarily a narcissist but had another disorder.
Hopefully he may choose to do what he did with the last girlfriend and go to another. He may have one already being interacted with and contemplating his prospects with her since you don't look like you'll do his bidding anymore.
Wishing you the best of luck in reclaiming your freedom for a better life and future relationships that are mutually positive.
I ended it today. I couldn't take it anymore. It is our one year but it has been a long time coming. He won't admit that though (of course). I feel so horrible doing this but I know I need to. His comments to me were at first how we could make it work but I stayed firm- now his comments are, “you don't even know what love is” and “I don't even want to look at me”. I feel crazy- these thoughts are running through my head “maybe I don't really now what love is” “maybe he really isn't a narcissist” [even though deep down I know, I don't want to believe it”. We are in college and I am moving out today. I have seen better days…
I didn't read your post brigitte until after I commented below. I know he is either a borderline or a narcissist [all signs point to it] and I have documented many things over the year. So glad I did so I see that I am not crazy and it really is him. This was my first “real” relationship. I don't think I will enter the dating game for awhile, I need some time to myself so I can truly heal from all of this. When I do though, I really hope I find a mutual love. I deserve it. Thanks for your response. It feels so good to let it all out. Also, luckily, my parents are very supportive and have noticed signs too. I am moving out today. Here's to a new chapter.
Also, I connected with this site 100% : http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html
Hi,
I just stumbled on this website after months of being completely confused over my relationship that ended in October (at least officially). I should note first that I am in my mid 20's and this was the first dude that I fell in love with. I also grew up with a narcissistic father, so I believe that this has played a hand in the guys I have chosen up to this point.
Anyways, about a year ago I met this guy through my roommate (college buddies). He was staying at our house for the week and had previously returned from a year of traveling in South America. We hit it off instantly and ended up having this intense week long affair. He seemed so genuine, traveled, worldy, and sensitive that I thought I had found someone out of the ordinary. After he left to go back home (he lived w/ his mother and was unemployed) we kept in touch for a few weeks and he invited me to come up to his place for the weekend.
The weekend was magical and I felt a really strong connection to him, but I started noticing a few red flags. First, he and his mother had a strange, overly dependent relationship. Second, he seemed like the world owed him a job even though he wasn't making much of an effort to find one. Before I left I asked if we should keep seeing each other despite the distance (a few hours) and he said that if we did continue I'd end up hating him and that w/ no car or job he had little to offer me. I was sad but accepted this.
A few days later the contacted me to tell me that he was going to Vegas and would be stopping in LA for a week to save money on his flight (?). I was just about to start my student teaching but agreed to let him stay. The week was very intense again, but then he left w/ no response. After asking him what was going on, he sent me an email stating that it wasn't that he didn't care, but that he had some roadblocks in his life. 'Feel free to call me and idiot”, he said, “you wouldn't be the first”. I was devastated, especially since we had ended up sleeping together for the first time.
We continued to talk for about a month and a half and when he sensed that I was losing interest, he asked me if I wanted to drive up to his dad's cabin up north for my spring break. I agreed, but we actually ended up going on a week long camping trip throughout Utah and Vegas, as well as spending Easter together. We were inseparable and I felt like he was my soulmate.
When he left he agreed that we'd meet up soon, but after that he got stand offish. He informed me that he didn't have the money to see me for 3 months (he knew I was student teaching and was very busy). I found out though that he was going on wine tasting trips and other such things. A friend of his that I had met when I visited him, called me up out of the blue and said that he was crazy about me, but that I should protect my heart around him. I ended up telling him that 3 months was unacceptable and I didn't want to see him anymore. He freaked out and after finding out that I had talked to his friend, NEVER spoke to her again, blaming her for everything.
So we stopped seeing each other for over a month and then he called me one day in late may to inform me that he was flying down to attend an alumni related event and could he stay at my house. He basically hovered around me the whole weekend and I stupidly ended up hooking up w/ him again.
After that I ended up visiting a few times. I got to know his family very well, but he still refused to call me his girlfriend. Everyone knew we were together and he didn't hide it but he had a myriad of excuses as to why, even though he claimed he wanted it more than anything. I invited him to meet my friends/family when I went home , but he said he had no money. Instead, he bought a ticket to South America to go to a wedding there.
After I got back, I went on his family vacation w/ him. It was still fun, until I criticized him about something. Then he gave me the silent treatment the next day. We ended up getting in to a committment argument and he said that if i didn't move closer to him it wouldn't work, but that he wasn't ready for me to move closer yet. He said that I might get to be his gf 'one day', even though he wanted it very much. Nonsensical. At this point, his reasoning started to get weird. I almost left his vacation, but he got super sweet and clingy, and I didn't want to embarrass him in front of his family so I stayed.
Right before he went to South America he promised that he'd commit when get got back (he went for 2 months!) During that time he rarely talked to me. When I called him out, he said it was a misunderstanding and that was very busy. He also didn't invite me to his sister's wedding and got mad that I wanted to go saying, 'Well it was YOUR responsibility to tell me that you wanted to go'.
After he got back, I dumped him for good. He blamed me for the breakup saying that I didn't give the relationship a chance. But then I heard nothing from him. When I did see him shortly after he wouldn't even look me in the eye and treated me like I wasn't a person (even though he'd send me couples pictures randomly). He rearranged the story saying 'I didn't make him happy, and that I argued too much and that it would've have worked had we lived near each other'. I know who he is now, but it still haunts me and makes me feel like I failed somehow. I wouldn't have stayed so long if he didn't have some great qualities: he was fun, charming, affectionate, good with his family, etc. But very lacking in empathy. After the fact all of our mutual friends told me that he was 'bad at relationships'. I wish I'd known before. Why do I still feel so raw though?
Sorry this is so long!
Well done peacelovecj. You do most likely know and have the capacity for real love and therefore had the wisdom and courage to end a futile relationship. Truly loving relationships are full of mutual concern and consideration. A constructive relationship is for most of the time is happy, secure with feeling that you can count on each other supporting and building each other up. When there is constant fighting, especially in the first year it is a futile negative life. When people are young they very often can have relationships that end as you learn more about them and realise there is no good future. He may well be a narcissist or borderline, but even if he isn't it didn't work and wouldn't. Forget the lets work on it offer as he didn't care enough about your feelings when he had you willingly with him ( that is not love doing that) and is only coming up with better offers when your going – too late.
Any way as you haven't yet met the man that is a suitable partner you don't or can know how fully positive love can be with the right one. You at least know what it could be and what it isn't through him. So stay positive and don't carry his projections and problems on your shoulders-they are his to deal with. It's inspiring to see your progress.
whit84, i am so glad you came here and so glad you ended that relationship! I'm not sure whether he was officially NPD or just a total DOUCHEBAG but either way, you are well rid of him. I know it hurts, you feel terrible, but here's what you need to do: heal so that you are ready when someone capable of love and commitment appears in your life. That is your job right now! You deserve better – I know that you know that. I wish you all the best.
Thank you for your support. I know it'll take some time, but I believe that this had to happen for me to realize that I deserve more and that I will get what I accept. I was left super confused at the end of the relationship because he was very passive aggressive, denied things that he had 100% said, and pretty much rewrote much of the history of what happened. This left a bad taste in my mouth and a lack of closure, but I'm ready to move on. I have to. Thanks again.
Your head is obviously on straight, I can see your strength in what you write. That is a very good thing. So many women stay in situations like this for years. N's are so charismatic and compelling that it's very hard to walk away. I congratulate you for having the perseverance to do that.
I guess the problem is that now despite all of it, I still miss him and feel depressed, like something is missing in me. For most of the year, I became very dependent on him and let him determine how I felt about myself. If he was giving me attention I felt great, and if he was being distant or playing head games I felt inadequate. I left feeling that if he REALLY liked me, he would've been more caring. But I guess if he's an N, he cares more about himself than anyone else. Now that it's just me, I find myself having some separation anxiety, even though I know he's not good for me. He ended up coming down to LA to see some friends this past weekend and it stirred up a bunch of emotions for me. Hopefully I'll feel better soon.
Whit84, that is so hard, I know it is. The thing is, N's are so charming, so good at making you feel good (when they want to). Of course you would miss that! He made you feel special and fantastic, and then he could wipe that good feeling away in a moment with one emotionally distant or abusive episode. It's hard to wean oneself away from that kind of reinforcement, I understand.
But he has nothing to offer. Nothing. At the end of the day, you are unhappy, and lonely. Let him go, knowing that once you are able to move forward, you will be open to love with someone else. Staying in the destructive cycle he's perpetrating is using up your precious youth and beauty, not to mention your fertility.
Don't be the 30 year-old woman with sad stories to tell. You can do this.
You’re right. It is a waste of my precious time and energy. Last thing I’ll say: I guess I was ashamed to say this, but I might as well: When he came down over the weekend (which was exactly a year from when we met), I drunkenly hooked up w/ him (he was completely sober). Out of weakness, I asked him if he wanted to give it another shot. He was hot and cold to me the whole weekend, and said he was too busy to talk about it, but to give him a call when he got back. I did and he said that he ‘still had feelings for me’, and that he was usually impractical when it came to relationships, but that THIS time he’d draw the line and say no more b/c I was too argumentative and he couldn’t make me happy. He led me on the whole weekend, but I am mostly upset because I was so foolish. I feel like I let him ‘win’, when in my right mind I know that he’s no good for me. I was just feeling lonely and sentimental. I just feel terrible knowing that things turned out this way with me losing respect for myself. I hope I can forgive myself.
I guess the thing that keeps me upset, is the idea that he'll treat the next girl he's with the way I wanted to be treated. He made it seem like I expected too much from him and was unreasonable, implying that if it I was the 'right' one it wouldn't be this difficult. I'm ashamed to say this, but when he came down last week (a year from when we met) I drunkenly hooked up w/ him (he was completely sober). To be fair, he was unsure of whether it was the right decision, but preceded to be hot and cold to me the whole weekend. Due to sentimentality and loneliness I asked him he he wanted to get back together, knowing in my right mind that this was ridiculous. He said he was busy and wouldn't be able to talk about it until he got back home. He then said that he still had feelings for me, and that he is usually impractical when it came to relationships, but that this time he'd say no for a host of reasons. I'm really mad at myself because I didn't need to do that, but felt compelled to. Although I was the one who originally ended it, I had to go back and let him reject me. I thought I knew better. I just don't know how to forgive myself.
Oh, sweetie, you have to stop beating yourself up. This is NOT YOUR FAULT!
First of all, pity the next girl, because he is EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE. And that's not going to change, most likely ever. From what you've written it's clear that he is incapable of empathy, much less love. I'm sorry you did set yourself up for that final rejection, but maybe it was the nail in the coffin of this relationship. Sometimes embarrassment or even humiliation are useful – they keep us from making more mistakes. Those emotions evolved in humans for a reason. It feels terrible, but use it. Forgive yourself, know that you needed to do that one last time, and feel terrible as you do to move on. Now that you know there is no possibility, you won't be wondering “what if.”
Narcissists make us feel as if we are “not enough.” That is so toxic to your well-being. Nothing you did could ever be enough for him. He will always need more. More of everything, and the minute you aren't feeding his gargantuan ego what it needs every day, he'll be restless and looking for that validation somewhere else.
Thanks again. I'll take your advice and actually start moving on now.
Whit84 good on you for moving on and taking susanawalsh's excellent advice.
Before too long you'll be feeling a lot better. Starting with your own self respect, not having confusing slights to endure or the stress of trying to explain the obvious of how appropriately connected partners treat each other and some time later meeting another worthwhile. Forget about him except to keep the lessons you learnt about the type of man showing any disrespect and immaturity regarding his total life style to be dismissed fast.A guy one develops a relationship with at your age needs to be well into his work ethic and stable so as a team you can build a future together with. Life needs, like purchasing houses and having children is costly and both parties these days need to be stably employed as well as emotionaly balanced with mutual reciprocal caring to happily be able to cope with unavoidable pressures. He has a personality disorder to be so entrenched in his behaviours and responses. Never feel upset that he'll move on to another girl treating her as you wanted to be as it will only be for as long as you were in spurts with the same relationship deficits played out on her, torture, just feel pity for the later victims. He lives by breaking normal rules.Charming and intensly involved that most males reserve for someone they are serious about.The ordinary guy wanting a hook up may be charming etc., for an evening or so to get action, but won't dare to pretend or even can much beyond the first sexual encounter. This man is like an adolescent approaching his mid teens before understanding the adjustments needed for maturity in all life areas except his development is seriously arrested through a personality disorder. Personality disorders they are finding have slightly altered brain structures and uptake problems of chemicals ( seretonin, dopamine, norepherine etc.,) as yet largely untreated. Let's face it we wouldn't expect to build to a relationship with someone new once we realised they have dementia knowing they have deficits in processing plus it will only get worse and it's the same with personality disorders.
AS you are doing your course so well you are familiar with accepting deferring instant self gratification or denying some fun indulgences for the bigger picture and it's really the same with coping with the moments of withdrawal of the biochemistry buzzes you experienced with him.
You will keep developing for the better as long as you stay away from those like him and one like him over the years keeps getting worse.
This isn't that relevant to you, but a sign how their cognitive limitations can go over time as well as a chance for me to share my update of what I've kept away from.
My ex N with whom it even ended up needing a restraining order is going worse than ever. I had to report him restalking my place to the police, he lied and denied and found out from the police he's still expressing great negativity and misconceptions about me ( no surprise).
My younger son had taken a friend to sell him an unwanted Xmas present and he turned out to be out. His junk hoarding had gotten so much worse without me (or any significant person) in his life my son decided to go in to check if he was still alive.Back door wasn't locked. Not there, but next day phone call check by him answering shows he is alive, not that disgusted son could bother then speaking.
N's hoarding from rubbish and compulsive buying meant only an arm chair( so can watch his big screen TV) and a computer chair in another room were clear( pc for purchasing more and more on ebay and dating sites-BDSM type porn again too by now??) & actual bath empty, the rest of the place was totally cluttered and rubbish inches deep every where. Not even the bed was clear but he'd bought a considerable number of very sharp knives, swords and bayonets of the type he used to consider earlier at the overly lethal illegal level. It confirmed my recent feelings of him becoming more dangerously violent and my need to maintain being extra careful security wise, especially at night.
brigitte, you make a good point about normal men using 'charm an intensity' when one is serious about someone. My problem was that I could never tell if he was serious about me or not because his behavior was all over the place. As a result I internalized it as meaning that he didn't care, b/c I wasn't 'enough for him' (whatever that means). The confusing thing for me was that I assumed that him taking me on vacations and family outings meant he was feeling serious. And sometimes he'd say that he was serious and wanted the same goal as me: a committed relationship. Other times though, he'd make it seem like I had to 'earn' a relationship from him. He'd constantly bring up ex-girlfriends/lovers and either criticize them, tell me I was better, get oddly sentimental about them, or talk about his sexual history, which I felt was inappropriate. Like he was trying to make me know that I was not 'the only one' to keep me off-balance. Last week, after the we hooked up and talked about getting together (big mistake in retrospect), he said “We had SOME type of a relationship, I mean, we were seeing each other I guess, but it wasn't A relationship. I only call someone my girlfriend if they live near me and I like them a lot”. Mind you we were in an exclusive long distance relationship for almost 10 months and he thought it was outrageous that I wanted to be referred to as a 'girlfriend' instead of a 'friend'. All of his words and actions contradicted each other so much, it was quite crazy-making. Typing this though, I'm seeing how dysfunctional it was, and that all I wanted was a healthy adult relationship w/ a person NOT capable of it.
In your case, congrats for continuing to keep away from the dysfunction. For someone relatively new to this, it's very helpful to see examples of people's strength in staying away from these people.
Thank you again for this forum. Am I allowed to write on here? Because I am actually the male who found the narcissistic female – but I can definitely relate to all of these stories and I feel bad for ANY victim of NPD.
I could write a book alone on my experiences with the mother of my three children who I now know has narcissistic personality disorder after a therapist I saw in 2008 in the early stages of my separation saw the signs in our discussions. I wish I never knew what this disease was. I guess I was naive for a long time. I took the blame for 14 years as I was held accountable for every one of my mistakes – and every one of my wife's mistakes as well. I made enough mistakes of my own, so doubling up on responsibility was an arduous task. I lived in a bubble where people don't use other people while simultaneously saying they love them. Now I know I was possibly used from the beginning of our relationship some 16 years ago.
My kids are the three most amazing children in the world. My sons are 9 and 11 and my daughter is 15. People ask why I was there for so long – and it was for them. I was one of those NPD enablers who would take abuse to a certain degree, and then eventually blow my lid in anger. I went to marriage counseling for 4 years, and each week my wife would explain how “He just doesn't get it”. Indeed, I didn't get it. Neither did my therapist as NPD was never even mentioned despite the fact my wife never took responsibility for anything. I even felt crazy as hurtful statements she would make to me would be brought up in counseling by myself – only to be told in front of the counselor “Oh my God, I don't know who he thinks he was married to as I would never ever say anything like that to him or anyone.”
My wife was pregnant at 17 years old – I was 18. At the time I was a midshipman at the United States Naval Academy, which was the dream school that I had always wanted to attend. I was recruited for football there, and I had graduated high school in the top 10% of my class to get my appointment. We began dating shortly before I left for Annapolis. While home for Christmas break, that is when she got pregnant. She was raised Mormon and abortion wasn't an option – a fact I later found conflicting with her smoking and drinking and truckdriver mouth and need for superficial things. I kept the situation quiet at school for the first 8 months. During that time we also got married at the request of her parents (again in secrecy as midshipman are not allowed to be married or have children while at school there). It was supposedly “the right thing to do”. Trying to be honorable and at this point only 19, I did what she wanted to make her happy. I eventually told the academy when the question was poised to me and they subsequently made me resign my commission. At 19 years old, after working my short adult life to get in to that school, I had to give it up. I don't remember being resentful because I always wanted a family and I accepted that I would just get it earlier than I had anticipated. Our marriage was rocky of course. Money was always tight, but other issues that mature adults shouldn't have to deal with also came up constantly. I take a lot of the blame for how I was in the beginning. I really didn't know my wife when I married her and I don't think I was really pleased when I learned of her religious upbringing and the way she blatantly disregarded some rules while adhering to others in the Mormon church with little or no consistency. I would say it took me a good 5 years before I even came to know who I was. I would say most people don't develop an identity until they are about 25 years old on average. At that point I had already been married 6 years and had my 3rd child on the way. I found a comfort in my own identity and I am a person who values honesty and integrity above all things. I'm a cheeseball and the class clown – always making myself the butt of my jokes. But my wife – I still did not know who she was and now of course I understand why. I could also understand how threatening she found it when I would be out and people would laugh at my jokes – but I think she partly liked it because I was something of a trophy husband in her view. Behind closed doors she made sure she kept me in line.
Giving up my naval career, I worked on Wall St in finance. I didn't have a great job, but I made OK money. Somehow it was never enough. At 25 years old, my wife would demand $45,000 SUV's and while only making about $75,000 I would of course try to get her to be reasonable. She would throw temper tantrums and not speak to me for weeks and eventually I would give in. I would work an extra job to make the bills because she would tell me “it's my fault I don't make enough money” and try to compliment me by saying “but I think you are worth so much more than you make and you should try to get a job like this person has” – referring to a friend's husband 20 years my senior and his high six figure income and their lavish lifestyle. I had a very supportive family throughout this, and they are an upper middle class family as well – helping us buy a house and taking us on family vacations – even sending us to Europe at one point on vacation. I realize now that my ex-wife may have seen me as a meal ticket, even at 18 years old – and maybe planned this all along from the day she met me. I think she didn't know that I never cared about money (I don't know many naval officers who do it for the money). Thinking back to our roots – she told me she loved me and slept with me on our second date. I had known her as a friend for a year or so before that, so maybe I wrote it off quickly as true affection.
Things progressively got worse. My wife would sleep til 1pm on weekends. She had no involvement with her kids lives. I would leave for work at 6am and she would wake up late on school days… to the point my daughter was late to school 40 times one school year. Not just driven to school – but marked as tardy. The bus stopped outside the house so this was ridiculous and I thought she was maybe depressed? She rarely came home at night and if she worked (as a nurse's aid in private residence with odd hours) she would always make plans to go out afterwards. I had my kids all this time so it didn't matter as much as it should because all I wanted was them, but eventually things became unbearable. In the period of about 2 months in early 2008, she was dropped on my front lawn at 1am or 2am, drunk as could be, by the friends she was out with. Then she quit her job citing it was too stressful and they didn't want to give her another raise she demanded. Then she joined a gym that cost $1200 for 6 weeks (she felt entitled to a very lavish lifestyle – and I was still making about $80K at the time), she decided we were getting a new dog (a 175 lb Newfoundland that would not fit in our 1/5 acre 1500 sq ft home), and continued to go out. My income went down as the country was in recession and eventually the stress got to me. I lost it. I called her out on her activity. She could not believe I would criticize her and got in my face, screaming at me. I told her we are not getting a dog. She responded “I'm not asking you, I am telling you. If you don't like it – there is the door.” Oh boy did I lose it. I walked out of the room and she followed me, berating me more. I turned around and looked at her as she screamed at me in the nastiest, most demeaning and uncaring way I have ever been spoken to…. and instinctively that's when it happened – I slapped her in the face.
I take full responsibility for doing the completely wrong thing. I do not consider myself a violent person by any means. I did slap her in the face 14 years earlier in the first year of our marriage and couldn't look at myself in the mirror. I just knew after that incident that no matter what – that was no an option. Twice in 14 years it happened.
I have gotten over the guilt of it at this point. I have of course been labeled in her stories to family and friends as violent and abusive. I was so guilty at the time, I moved out of the house and in with my parents. I took my kids every weekend and went to therapy because she told me I had “anger management issues”. After a month, I invited her to therapy too – but she refused to come. For 4 months out of the house I went and invited her every week – but she said I am the one with issues and maybe, if I can fix myself, she will take me back. I never wanted her back – I wanted my kids back. She was just the unfortunate price I would have to pay in order to get them back.
But during the counseling I became more educated that I in fact only played a 50% role in the demise of my marriage – not 100% as my wife had always told me. Again, I had at times thought I played the majority role, as much as a 70% because I would get angry and do something to justify the mistreatment from her that I would feel. So it was enlightening at first to not feel the guilt, and then to eventually see the pattern and learn about character disorders and specifically the evil that is narcissistic personality disorder.
I gave up my life for this woman, and in the end – she took everything I ever wanted. She legally manipulated about $200,000 my parents had given us and handed me $40,000 of credit card debt that was incurred only because I gave in to some changes in the house – changes that I actually made so she could have granite countertops and the $80K kitchen she felt she deserved. Man… now I know why my gut always said “making demands that our not in our budget is wrong” – but my desire to appease her to make life tolerable for myself and my kids always won out and I always gave in.
Where am I now? About 20 months in to the divorce…. a divorce that can only be done on her terms of course so it's not going very far. She is holding out until I make more money because “I am worth more than I make” still. I lost more than I care to say, but I do have my peace of mind. I still do not care about money and I did meet someone who I would say is the complete opposite of my ex-wife. I never had much relationship experience so being in a healthy relationship where both my girlfriend and I matter and where we both put each other first – well sometimes it just makes me cry that I was so weak, such a pushover – for so long. I just felt so naive. So blind. So used. So manipulated. And my ex-wife continues her problematic ways. My kids question why and how she goes to Florida by herself on vacation – ON MOTHER'S DAY – in the midst of a divorce to add to it. How she describes herself as a phenomenal mother but does nothing for them (even weekends when she does have them she tells me “I have plans, so if you want them they are here – otherwise they'll be home by themselves”). She's had 2 guys move in for 30 days and 6 months in 2009. The last guy was actually nice – and on disability. When he got his disability settlement from the state – she coincidentally dumped him within the week (it wasn't as high as he had liked – so I can't imagine it was as high as she was expecting either). He treated her like gold and I have literally had to counsel him on NPD and why she said she loved him for 6 months (she moved him in within 3 days of meeting him) and then one day changed her mind.
It has been brutal. So I fill a lot of my free time reading these boards – and worrying about my kids. What will happen to them? Thankfully, she views having them (she manipulated a very hard chance at me getting custody as well) as a paycheck from me each month, and I do have them more days than she does regardless. I treat my kids with unconditional love. They see the madness. They saw how she mistreated the last boyfriend (they grew attached to them as he was primary caregiver in house while she still went out constantly and left him with kids).
So my last questions after my long venting – is how to I go about the education and care of my children in regards to their mother? Do I say nothing and let them figure things out? Do I give them subtle hints or try to talk to my 15 year old about NPD? Do I send them to a therapist now or set aside money for when they are in their twenties? I am scared for them suffering as many of the women on this board suffered. What do you recommend?
Exnavymid, you are most welcome here. This thread, and my blog in general, is for men and women both. In fact, I love it when men join the discussion, because I think it promotes understanding between the sexes, which is often in short supply.
I find your story absolutely heartbreaking, and I really appreciate your willingness to share it. Just your name alone is so moving – after getting into Annapolis, you were forced to give that up. That is a tragedy, and I commend you for your resilience and your positive outlook even after everything you've been through. You sound like an incredible dad and it's great that you have found a woman who you are enjoying a relationship with.
I have to agree, your wife sounds incredibly insensitive and selfish, which, of course is typical for NPD. As I've said before here, I'm not a shrink or NPD expert in any way, and others on this thread may have more specific advice, but here are my amateur thoughts anyway, for what it's worth:
1. You have suffered at the hands of the U.S. legal system in your divorce and custody proceedings, which are often extremely unfair to men. There is lots of Men's Rights information online, which you may already have tapped into, but I encourage you to seek support from other men who have had similar experiences. This might be a good starting place: http://mensnewsdaily.com/
2. I would not talk to your kids about NPD if your wife has not been formally diagnosed by a mental health professional. She will only deny this, and it puts the kids in the middle. It would also be very disturbing to children to hear such alarming news. Obviously, they are aware of her faults as a mother, how could they not be? Still, NPD is a very scary thing, and I wouldn't throw that term around if you don't have rock solid backup. I do wonder whether your lawyer might be able to request a psych evaluation for her? If you could prove this, you might be able to get a better custody result.
3. I think you should send your kids to a therapist when and if they exhibit difficulties of their own. However, if there is consensus around your ex's condition, you could certainly initiate family therapy for you and the children together. Or you could go for family therapy to work on your relationship with them, but it wouldn't be appropriate to make her the central issue, I wouldn't think, unless she was present as well. I know it must be really hard to be there for them when she isn't and not judge her harshly. And if they complain to you about her, it's got to be very difficult to keep your mouth shut. Certainly the eldest may be reaching the age to decide where to live in the next few years.
4. Re setting aside funding, I'm not sure how necessary that is. Insurance would be likely to cover therapy, so if you've got health insurance, you'll probably be OK, with a small copay.
Overall, it sounds like you are totally there for your kids, which is great. Whether you wish to undertake a legal battle re her parental fitness is another matter, but I would think it's the only real way of explicitly dealing with her as a N.
3.
I truly appreciate the information. The divorce is something that gives me that queasy uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach – so as much as some people tell me to fight, I still almost prefer to give in most of the time. I have offered her premiums in dollars but the amount she wants is more than I take home some months (I work partially on commission), and I can't make a life for myself if I don't have any positive cash flow. The disagreements we have are actually comical – I tolerated her two men living in the house but the last break-up was VERY traumatic on my children, especially my 11 year old son who had bonded with the 6-month live-in boyfriend and his 10 year old daughter. For that reason, I am keeping my legal right to deny cohabitation to her and her boyfriends. Moving a guy in within a week of meeting him is an example of the poor judgment she has. My girlfriend didn't meet my kids for at least a month of us dating and I really didn't make her a stable part of their lives until I realized I loved her and a year later I can say my decision has worked out – because my 9 year old loves her so much he proposed to her (I want to propose to her too but the divorce isn't final!!)
The other issue she won't settle on is she wants our divorce documents to state that when my children reach 21 years old, the child support automatically resets higher. In NY, you can go to court if you need more money, but as I have already offered her more than I am required by law, I don't understand how she feels entitled to more in the future. But alas, that is the nature of the beast.
I had no idea a psych evaluation could be requested. I may talk to my attorney about that idea. Since I am new to this disease and my education about it, I wonder sometimes if my ex-wife is only narcissistic towards her romantic interests in her life – maybe not her children. From what I have read, narcissists use whomever they can use, and those they can't they tend to just avoid.
I am grateful for these communities and blog forums. They help so much. As I stated, I have been in weekly contact with the ex-boyfriend since he was dumped in October 2009, mostly because he had no idea about NPD and how he got used for such superficial reasons like a disability settlement. Oh, by the way, in the 6 months – she had him sell his house, sell most of his possessions at garage sales she helped him run and then give away most of the rest that was leftover, and basically give up a fallback lifestyle. After this was done, he told me she sat down with him and said “I need $5,000 a month for you to be with me.” I remember those sit-downs. She works, but hates that she has to work. She married me under the premise that I would provide for her whatever she wants (not a discussed premise – this is just how she viewed her entitled life). She expects to have a nanny to raise the kids, receive child support from me that goes up as my salary goes up, and find a man who will fund her daily partying and life of entitlement – not because such a man exists but because she feels that is what she is worth.
Again, I could write a book about my years of marriage. The cleaning lady service she hired even though she was home and in the early years of our marriage was paid to clean houses and yet we couldn't afford. The spending on lavish dinners almost weekly. The shoplifting sprees she used to go on that now make so much sense. Even the getting arrested for shoplifting but somehow getting out of it without a problem (too bad, maybe a court would have liked to hear about that). The illegal diet drugs she sold for a few years and made tremendous amounts of money on, almost operating above the law, and used to hold over my head as the big earner that entitled her to make the financial decisions in our household, as well as entitled her to vacations by herself whenever she wanted.
I have learned for the most part just to pity her, support my children, and of course most of all – set up boundaries. For example, I do not answer my phone when she calls me. I wait for a message and then process what she wants, which sometimes is just as simple as talking to the kids when I have them – and then I dial her number and hand them the phone. Manipulative text messages that challenge my parenting or my integrity are funneled through my dad, and we patiently respond as a family instead of allowing them to get my blood boiling. I do not attend events with her. I have basically ended any mutual friendships or kept them very basic and peripheral. I have essentially started my life completely over. My girlfriend has dealt with her type before, and she is my strength and inspiration. In a way, being in a narcissistic relationship for so many years, if nothing else, can make you truly appreciate love when you find it. That, and my children, are the two positives that have come from my first marriage.
For those who don't see it yet…. there is redemption. Just keep mindful of the warning signs so it never happens again. There was no narcissism in my family that I was raised with. I just got married really young to a person who hadn't developed and never actually will.
And yes – I did say shoplifting and drug dealing. She will create parking spots where none existed. She has talked her way stageside at concerts without even showing up with a ticket. And I doubt she uses sex or her sensuality to get these things. She was always overweight through our marriage and since I moved out she has probably put on 30-50 lbs. I would guess her weight now at 5'7″ and 220 lbs.
I think her overweight looks work to her advantage because what guy would assume a woman in her physical condition is narcissistic? I think there is a misconception that narcissists feed off their own beauty. It's not about physical beauty. Before I knew about narcissism, and while I was interviewing divorce attorneys (p.s. I tried to go to mediation but my exwife had already hired an attorney almost a year before I moved out – which again proves to me she had planned the divorce for a while) – I would describe my ex-wife in one statement. “No one thinks higher of her than she does.”
I described some of her characteristics as a mother. She sat down with me this year and when I challenged some of her parenting, she told me “I am a phenomenal mother” as if criticizing her in the smallest way was the biggest insult she had ever received. It reminded me of an interesting time in our marriage, long before many of these problems had arisen but during many of the early warning signs. She showed me an episode of Oprah that she had taped (the days of the VCR) about “Super Moms” – and they were giving out awards for these tireless women. My wife showed me the video and asked me to nominate her for this show. I only remember seeing this one mom who had won the award – and she was a single mom who worked a 10 hour a day job while raising 3 boys. She left the house each day at 6:30. Before she did, she would get up at 4am – spending 30 minutes individually with each of her sons, bathing them, reading with them, spending quality time with them. Then she would prep dinner. She would go to work from 7:30 til about 6pm. She would pick the boys up at day care and bring them home and eat the dinner she had prepped in the morning, then would spend another 30 minutes individually with them before bed. She was tireless. She did more than I think any one person is capable of. She loved those kids and wanted them to feel they were loved just like they had a mom and a dad – even though it was just her. I saw this video, and at the end, my wife asked me to nominate her for the award. At the time, we only had one child. Our house was a mess. I commute about an hour and forty-five minutes each way to New York City for work each day. At the time I was working from 7:30am to 5pm, leaving my house at 5:35am and coming home around 6:40pm. I had actually made some complaints that when I get home, I would love to start having dinner together as a family (we are married about 4 years at this point) and my wife at the time was home. In 14 years of marriage, I think my wife cooked me 20 dinners. Even commuting I cooked most of the meals. Towards the end of the marriage, there were weeks where she would be home M-F night, and I would come home to 4 days in a row of her ordering pizza. She didn't skimp either – spending $50 a night on this pizza. The place was 1/4 mile away – she would still pay for delivery. She had been home all day. When I asked my kids a couple times why we are having pizza again – they would say “we were hungry and mommy was on the phone all day”. She did love that phone. She loved to gossip. Loved to stir the pot and start the drama – or at least squeeze some lighter fluid on the drama fire. I remember many of my emotional beratings, screaming at me at the top of her lungs – and then the phone would ring. And she would pick it up, and be a completely different person. Didn't matter who called – she was their best friend the moment she answered.
I swear I have been to hell and back. I promised myself when the divorce is final I will get a little tattoo somewhere on my body that only I can really see… and it will be a chinese symbol for “Karma”. God I pray that karma holds true and this woman learns who she really is and how much pain she caused OR I get proven wrong and she actually wins Oprah's Super Mom Award (at least the attention will get her off my back for a minimum of 48 hours I would guess).
Either will do.
I have been reading and reading and apreciate any !!! advice.
My story has left me with disbelief and questioning who the person is. After 25 years I reconnected with a very close childhood friend while visiting my family abroad. The most intense immediate connection and incredible feelings being in his space. He shared his unhappy marriage story and as he met me restarted a divorce… our relationship was not based on the physical altho somehow every boundary was erased and I trusted implicitly. He continued to contact me abroad evry day saying Im the love of his life and was moving forward with a divorce… and wanted me to move to be with him . I felt the exact feelings and was so grateful !!! that I had met one in a million – the love songs and beautiful letters and calls reassured me …and I had no doubt. I never questioned the divorce and was watching wanting him to do it for hmself giving no guarantees as i needed him to get divorced for himself not for me …. after 5 months of constant contact – in which time he had flown and met my mum and told her and evryone that he wanted to marry me and had met the ONE , i asked about the divorce to hear it had been pt on hold at which stagei cried and asked him not to contact me until he was divorced or geting divorced or i would reach out once my heart had healed. i truly felt this was the man i was going to spend my life with and to get G-Ds blessings was not prepared to commit adulry … For 7 months I did not respond to him yet he still reached out assuring me of his love… I decided I had to see him again and after 7 months let him know I was going to be coming abroad to see my family and needed to see him . I prepared myself for any outcome and was prepared to meet his wife if he had not restarted the process as that would have put it all into perspective for me and kept it honest. Immediately as I wrote to him he responded saying he has moved out and lives alone…. I was so proud of him as I knew ho emotional this all was and as a childhood friend was happy that he had done it alone… he continued to say how much he loves me and that I am THE ONE and that he will let life show him the way …. As I was boarding my flight I got a text asking G-D to protect me and how excited he was to see me… I was flying 48 hrs to see him and was so excited … what lay ahead nothing could have prepared me for… Ive never dealt with deceit and this being a close childhood friend now have no idea who he is … I landed and called him ..he said he was in a business meeting and would call me back ..he never did… after 3 weeks and no contact I was with a mutaul friend who told me that he has a live in girlfriend and is moving state with her… I was shocked !!! I saw him 3 x in 6 weeks and he still continued to say I AM THE ONE and that he is not in love with his girlfriend … There is so much decit that was uncovered to write it all down but I am amazed at his lack of empathy and ability to manipulate what transpired… his words and actions were not aligned …I am very empathetic and was also amazed at how he had aged in a year ..his face is lined and wrinkled and his behaviour is not that of anyone I would have fallen in love with… First time I have really fallen in love and for some reason i would have removed all !!! boundaries with him … I trusted him altho others were dubious of him. Sexually he ignited a desire in me that I have no comparison to. It wasnt acted upon but I feel such a loss. In retrospect thru all my tears I thank G-D for protecting me and have cut contact. At first he begged me not to then manipulated everything around with no phone call and only emails saying I am trying to make him look like the bad guy. This is a 42 yr old … who I still do not know if he is divorced he has a live in girlfriend 15 yrs younger who he assured me hes not in love with and called her trailer trash. my Gosh what a ride …. I have always had a question mark wether he was bi sexual from childhood and when I asked him it made him angry …all I ever wanted was the truth and guess I am naieve as regardless of someones truth I cannot process decit nor undertsand it …I appreciate any response and there is so much more to this story about decit and lies uncovered
I need to add that I have never ever felt such an intensity before … and had no doubt it was real !!! he repeatedly told me that he could never be with another knowing he had found me after so many years … I have experienced an incredible heartbreak thru the deceit and having flown abroad believing he lived alone to find out he has a 6 month live in girlfriend and altho he says I am still THE ONE he is not able to assume any responsibilty for his deceit and instead manipulates saying THAT IS LIFE and had I have been there and not left him when he put his divorce on hold things would have been very very different. I feel like my head is spinning as nothing makes sense I quetion all he ever shared and realize none was true … after i reached out and aid i was going to travel abroad as i owed it to myself to see and understand this dynamic …he seemed so excited and i had no doubt of his love for me again overwhelmed with a gratitude at something so powerful and proud of myself that altho not a day or night had gone past in a year that he wasnt on my mind and in my heart ,I had walked away and cut contact the day i heard his divorce was on hold. This is a childhood friend who when i asked for truth and questioned his lies told me i was attacking him and putting pressure on him… where is the kind loving person i believed him to be … i was so supportive thru all his chaos a complications and i only asked for truth… which he is unable to give me . the indecency and feeling of disrespect from a man i have grown up with and felt such beautiful indescribable feelings for hurts much much more than the loss to another woman . i will be strong …i will move on …my tears will stop and i do thank G-D but i do not understand !!!! why !!!! from a man who repeatedly claims to be a very sympathetic individual… phew !!!! what a horrible horrible first time falling in love experience
DEBRADAVID you are a truly remarkable good woman, a star amongst the rest of us inmanaging to hold onto your principles and the suggested guidlines of insisting that the man is clear before fully giving yourself to him, and you managed to hold fast in your conduct with a real full blown Narcissistic Personality Disordered man. Amazing, you are one of the few who do fully sustain living by their beliefs despite the temptations. And yet that evil thing still got hold of your feelings causing turmoil and hurt. You will recover soon enough though. This is so scary to see that the impact of Narcissists is so bad that your ethical caution and conduct if you didn't work him out to be a Narcissist is not enough to prevent you as a caring women being drawn into in to that extent emotionally.
The quickest explanation and answer to give to you is he could and would do what he did to you (as he has to others and will whenever he can to more people)
is because he has that narcissistic personality disorder.They don't and can't ever with anyone have a true relationship, one that is a two way street. They neurologicically , psychologically are wired differently. They have no capacity for caring empathy, people are just objects and items to be used to serve their short term purposesThey need adultation and attention to feel alive, referred to as Narcissistic Supply (NS) and devalue resentfully those sources of it.Their personality/identity isn't truly stable and can flicker through being anything at anytime to have the novelty for stimulus, hence Mr Grand Passion with you at one moment ( sometimes a calculated ruse or other times he believes himself for a few hours) and not the next as shown by their next actions ( ranging from derision of you or being with anyone else ).
Psychopaths and Narcissists are extremely similar. The serial killer Ted Bundy was a real charmer, but having been caught and his actions identified we don't ask how could he betray girls he got by being so charming asking them to help due to a fake injury. We don't ask our cute sweet cat why won't you not be so cruel to the little mouse you caught torturing it so before killing it and listen to this lovely Bhuddist philosophy of respecting all life, we grasp that is their make up and nature. So it is with a personality disorder like Narcissistic PD. They won't and can't be otherwise. This man is beyond poor early learning resulting in crass treatment of women ( a few of them if younger, under early 30's are willing to change), he is a narcissist demonstrated by calculating lies , evasions, unjustifiable excuses and selfishness with utter inconsideration shown of your feelings. Resposability for how hurtful his actions are to you is outside and irrelevant to his conceptual framework. Excluding the power kick, controlling you aims to meet his needs to feel more powerful or in irresposably get his immediate needs met your suffering utterly unimportant.
“It is much easier to make good (wo)men wise than to make bad men good.” Henry Fielding, 1749 Therefore learn what a narcissist is and understand what they are, they cannot ever be made better or different. This quote is taken from the” Narcissist Suck” sight.
Visit this site and those by Sam Vaknin http://samvak.tripod.com/faq1.html is one to start with.
After that look up things about narcissists and going “No Contact” (NC) and why that is essential in all forms( do it – no explanation or anything you need to say will make a difference except to your disadvantage) and then sites with suggestion regarding your personal recovery as well as continuing to share here and other places to facilitate your personal recovery. Encounters where you get involved with a narcissist have an amazing degree of impact on any caring feeling human so never feel weak for hurting from it. Just ignore him and never respond again to him or answer to anyone he gets to inquire for him – aside from once only to him and any other- that you decided it wasn't going to work with him, your reasons are personal and you want no further contact or reminders as you are moving forward. Then adhere to it. Any way you didn't commit adultary with him, he has with his other girlfriend while conning you, so why would you entertain ,but not dismiss an adulterer and lier, you are better and worth more than that. It looks like so far you have been the greatest lesson he has encountered in standing by standards of morality despite your capacity for love being a foot in the door and he knows that now you know enough if you are really true to those standards ( not just a really cunning game player uping your intrigue for him which is what from his mind set h'd be assuming and presuming to beat) you have to say bye & no contact giving no explanation or asking for one.He knows he has done enough to cross you if you are really authentic to your standards and faith it is goodbye without explanations (rubbing a narcissists nose in his dirt only enrages him for justifying vengance, gives him attention- NS and is never proccessed meaninfully as they won't get a single complaint with any constructive outcome.
Good luck in your journey and healing. Write here again if you feel like it. susanawalsh one of the moderators of this site is wonderful in cher understanding and compassion for anyone at anypoint. You'll probably soon get a response from her anyway.
Brigitte thank you SO much for your response… My actions held onto principles but my heart and soul and prayers and empathy were with him constantly.There wasnt a day that he wasnt the focus of my heart,never for a moment doubting that we would be together. I knew it and felt it with my whole being … Here are some of his words to me … which is all I believed to be true…
“I love you and adore you,want you to know that I will be proud to call you my wife one of these days, you look gorgeous my darling”
“I am crazy about you Debs” and “I will always be next to you and together !!! we will overcome the curveballs that life throws us”
“Baby trust me I am so in love with you…… and am just glad we have what we have, and look forward to the future!!!!!!! “
“The thought of spending the rest of my life with you, and growing old with you, feels like the most unreal realization I have ever had………..”
“One of these days I will be with you, and then its forever baby……”
“I want to have the opportunity of being with you and feel strongly that we will be together ,I dont understand why I feel the way I do, I just do……”
“Debs never ever forget how much I love you……. I feel it deep within me, its amazing!!!!!!!! I think you are such a classy lady, and I will always treat u as such! Gxxxxxx”
“Love intensyfies as it matures baby, real love that is, its amazing, when it is true love! I feel it with you, and will not !!! let it go, I believe it does come along to often in life, and when you realise it…… you make the needed sacrifices in order to nurcher it!!!!!!”
“Debs Being in love , can change! as one falls in love, you can also fall out of Love, Real and True Love is when you have a profound connection, that extends beyond any known boundaries, and where you have feelings for another , that are far greater than the feelings you have for yourself, they are your world, and when true, life is meaningless with out that person in it………U feel unforfilled when they are not with you and it hurts, you share and do what you would normally not do with any other, they inspire you to greater heights, pick you up when you are down, they focus on what is good in u, and disregard what is not, they choose you for who you really are, life shared with such a person will always be rewarding especially when it is resiprecated……… I love you !!! angel and am in love with you”
“Do you think it is at all possible , That you could be making a mistake? Because I dont! I love u G xxxxxxx “
“Hey baby, I have come to a little coffee shop, hoping to connect with you and have a chat, and realise the time there……. just to let you know I so understand your frustration, and wish I could be with you so badly. I am missing u so much, and working hard top get to a point where, this will all be over. Bbaes a question, please explain , not wanting to make a mistake to me? If I even thought I could be making a mistake, It would change everything for me, I have never once even thought that this in any way could be a mistake, I am frustrated yes, overwhelmed yes, but I am determined, I know inside me there is no way this could be a mistake…….? I just want you to know how I feel, and that I have NO doubts what so ever, and hoping that this gives you the needed imput to help you deal with what you are dealing with? I love you Debbs!”
“I cannot even imagine being with someone else, not with you in the world……. Just not concievable! You to have rocked my inner core, and changed the way I look at love……”
“U amaze me, love your deepness, and your mind, u really are a special lady, I am so greatful to u for coming into my life, thank u Debbs.”
“we will take it one step at a time, they can gossip about how happy we are and how right for each other we are”
” I am always thinking of you , and am so greatful for all that is, and hopefully will be. I feel such an incredible closeness with you, and have done since we met. Love u, sleep well baby.”
“Baby it is hard, but feel that we are also close to the point where u and I can start really planning for us going forward, I am feeling the excitement in my self, in terms of embarking on a new life with the person I most want to be with and so in love with. I really am missing you and blown away by this fact, as u really have made a huge impact in my life in terms of how much I feel for someone, thank u, I Love you “
“debbs I to will never give up, and want to be with u for the rest of my life ! I am just so grateful ……… I love our song! Once in a lifetime !!! G xxx”
“Debs Im also batteling with the seperation aspect of not being with you, as there is so much I want to do with you and share with you in person.”
“I dont want us to fall into the trap of becoming friends as a result of what we are going through, and want you to know this, you are my Lover and partner. I hope that comes out right your end, I just needed to say it. I love you babes.”
“Debs you are in my every waking thought – Ive never been like this, ever !!! need you in my life”
“Having met you has shown me what I truelly want, which I believed I would never feel, G-D has given me another chance, and this time he has given me what HE Knows is what I need and have always been looking for….., I just never knew it was u, or that it would happen to me….”
“Baby please don't be nervous , you have nothing to fear, ever with me…… I will always only be good to u and I will also always protect u.”
“I am a humble person, but very strong in my conviction, and ultimately will always decide what's right for me, I make my own path in life, and will always accept the outcome of my decisions, as they were my decisions, with no outside input……… I have equal concern for others and repect there opinion and or belief, that is life……..G xxxxxxxxxx”
“remember baby what ever challenge you face, we as a team can overcome……”.
When we met after 25 years . The feeling of being in his space was not one I can describe. It was incredible. I hid my feelings until he shared he was not in a intimate marriagege and was not nor ever had been in love with his wife and slept in seperate bedrooms, had tried to get divorced before but didnt have the strength as it was too difficult leaving his 5 year old son. When he met me he restarted the divorce process. I was sexuall with him twice and only pulled back the day he told me he had put his divorce on hold. I only did it out of ethics and becoz it was one of the 10 commandments … I loved him with all of me !!! and altho he continued to write and express his love – I never responded until I decided I had to travel and face whatever was… at which point he seemed so excited to see me – saying he has moved out and lives alone…Not for one minute did I expect him to be living with another woman.I was feeling such incredible empathy knowing how hard it must have been for him to leave his son and how emotional he was. I believed !!!! in him more than Ive believed in any person. The sexual desires he had ignited in me were unacted upon but I still find myself under a control altho I have cut contact. I did not know what narcissism nor persoanlity disorders were and spent many many many hrs looking online and am grateful to have found this blog. I hate to think he does have neurelogical issues but yes he was a child and teenager with very low self esteem…. He is very good looking altho his face has completely changed in the past year and aged and wrinkled. I only got back to the USA 4 weeks ago and have reached out to him many times with a heartbreak asking for decency and an understanding of why he lied and why he let me travel across the world to see him , I operated from heart . I do not have my clarity and never got the decency nor respect from him. His responses confused me more and not once did he pick up the phone to reach out to a woman who is broken. He repeatedly says I am the love of his life. That he is trying to protect me from critisism and that hes made many mistakes he needs to fix. That I am his dream and that this is not about me but about him . Then he will say that had I have not walked away( lets remember he chose to put a divorce on hold) things would have been very very different as I was his rock and he needed me… Does a man like this intentionally have a plan to hurt … did he ever love … I felt it !!! was it an act !!! I felt I had truelly met my soul mate. Sexually he has gotten to me and ignited desires I have never had. He did say to me once that he not only wants to control the way my body reacts to him but also the way my mind reacts to him. I thought it was sexy as he did say visa versa. His prayer for me as I boarded my flight asking G-D to protect this precious woman and how excited he was to see me left me no inclination of the sadness and shock that lay ahead. Being a close childhood friend I would have supported him if he as reconciling his marriage and happily extended a friendship to his wife… She knew about me as he had shown her pics and had spent every day with me for a month last Dec/Jan. We have many mutual childhood friends … which is how I found out about the girlfriend… I cry non stop and not just at the loss as I thank G-D for protecting me but at the loss of someone I was so excited to reconnect with and am sadenned at the deciet and lack of decency as I believed him to be all that he isnt … I have told him I was researching sociopaths and borderline personality disorders in a quest for clarity … I guess I did rib his nose in it Brigitte …I never knew what I was doing as I honestly feel like Im in a tumble dryer and the cycle is not on gentle!!! I can respect anyones truth but do not remotely understand someone not capable of Truth. Aman who 4 weeks ago looked me in my eyes and continued to say I am THE ONE and he is IN LOVE with me … nothing makes sense. I try to surrender and ask G-D to remove my tears and embrace what is …yet I long for him and know that he doesnt exist.
Again I am so grateful for your response ..THANK YOU !!!!
Back in October when i decided I needed to travel as I was not prepared to go thru another year of longing … I reached out and was responded to with enthusiasm. He told me he was going away for the weekend with his son alone. I responded for him to have a great great time and to send me pics… he sent me an individual pic of him and his son. I said he looked great and he thanked me saying his son had taken the pic…
I never ever expected that to be a lie !!!
I was abroad battling to sleep not knowing if he was with his wife – divorced or with his girlfriend and still getting constant texts that Im the only one and all that I feel he feels its just very complicated for him …
Intuitively I logged onto Face book and looked up his girlfriend ( who resembles me) …she had an unprotected site and I could see her albums. THERE I see fun weekend away … I see him at the same table – the same chairs and the same clothing as the pic he sent me … I started vomitting !!!!! and when I approached him and expressed that a con artist is a very very convincing person and that all I had ever asked for was truth .He said Ive never lied to you baby … when I mentioned the pic he said last minute his sons mum wouldnt let him go … I waited for him to continue the lie …and then packed up crying and told him that theres no need to lie anymore as when I had commented post the trip …on how good he looks his response was THANK YOU BABY JOSH TOOK THE PIC … Josh didnt take the pic …Josh wasnt even there…. He asked if I was finished attacking him … I reminded him that my brother is conected to all the top investigators in our country and that it would be interesting to do a background check on him … but that he neednt worry as he has nothing to hide… brigitte I did rub his nose into it … but with love and absolute heartbreak … at one point I even wanted to contact his wife as I did not commit adultry – yes I fell in love with lies but then thought she has his son and I would hurt her by my honesty. I so want to believe he is a good guy going thru a bad cycle …but his lack of decency or respect to me shows me hes not. My brother and father saw thru him the day they remet him … I was furous with them and never go on others opinions… I felt what I felt and had never ever ever felt something so strong before …EVER !!! I thanked G-D for him every day … Its a terrible feeling when you realize you were in love with a man who isnt who you believed he was and I do not know who !!!!! this man is … again Brigitte thank you so much for responding
Brigitte I did explain myself to him with truth as again I was unaware of personality disorders and was researching them . I left him with a prayer and explanation why I was deleting him from Face book and skype … He is very much a part of me and I know I will be ok in time ..but as a 42 yr old gosh it hurts to have lost what never was…here was what I left him with …
Almighty G-D
You know every hair on our heads and every tear that weve shed. It is only when our hearts are cracked open that we release the toxicity and pain and new spirit enters …Please hold this precious man in your hands and comfort him. Protect Gareth from danger and from his own emotions, remove addiction , fear and deceit from his character. Guide him and Show him that he is NOT ALONE and that he is LOVED !!! Let him surrender to you and when he does please answer his prayers as you can see his heart and you know what is real. G-D please guide him in making the correct choices and decisions on his life path and learn the lessons you want him to learn. I pray SUCCESS – HAPPINESS and TRUTH into Gaz soul . I pray that he has an ability to turn every negative into a positive. I Love him very very much and Ive seen his brokenness and cried many many tears for him and many tears over him. Please G-D strengthen me thru this prayer and fill Gareth with an abundance of LOVE !!! PEACE !!! and FAITH !!! to fill the void and emptiness that he is feeling.
Let him operate in Faith Truth and conscience and stop running and in stillness be the man you created him to be . A warrior of LIGHT !!!
Thank you Almighty G-D . Amen.
He knows I saw thru him yet continued to reach out with love which is kind and caring … I also pointed out all I had discovered as the 2 individual pics he sent me from his weekend alone with his son, which his son wasnt even there were 2 differnent dates and that only came to me by discernment and prayer by looking at the 000img numbers I prayed dates would be revealed and had no idea that the middle digits are the dates… Those dates didnt match .He was that manipulative to have sent me a pic of his son from a month earlier and him from the weekend … I dont understand why !!! he didnt have to be with me ..I would be happy for him if he had met someone as sad as I would have felt it would have been a lot easier than this … and why !!! did he beg me not to delete him and that the very least we could be was best friends and that he needs my words of wisdom to help him get back on his path …and then an email saying all I have done is attack him … Is asking for the truth and clarity an attack ? I guess again I didrub his nose into it as I did say that as kind and loving as I am he must never underestimate nor undermine my intelligence… and that I see yet I love and forgive but noe I need clarity and my sympathy cards for him are done … so hard to share a rollercoaster of a story on here but I thank all those whose stories ahve helped me and hope mine helps others… Truth and Closure is all I wanted not a man who cried and continues to say he is protecting me and needs to deal with the complications he is responsible for in his life … and then goes as far as to WRITE ON face book that he is very happy !!! none of it makes sense …
Brigitte after reading more and more posts I am wondering of he is borderline personality disorder ? I find it so hard believing he has any disorder but he did say last year he suffered incredible guilt ? – his new year resolution is not to lie ? and that he even considered “checking out” I wanted to be supportive through such incredible hard times for him as I am empathetic and intuitive but the lack of decency I received makes me put my sympathy cards aside. He is very needy … he does exagerate who he knows… but he was incredibly loving and warm . I fail to understand how a man who has met THE WOMAN of his DREAMS could be so unempathetic and kind. He was Kind and protective !!! and loving !!! and strong … this person is running and hiding and weak and does not have the character of the man I fell in love so deeply with. Another question ? do borderline personality and narcisstists have a sexual magnetism like no other. I am alarmed at the control and desire within me and altho I have cut contact .It remains… I have cried more than I have ever cried in my life … I again am grateful for divine protection but it was too good to be true and I fell so deeply in love and altho I walked away I knew with no doubt we would be together… and even seeing him now with his tears and my direct conforntation and expression of all that occured I still felt that connection … to trust so deeply … and be a recipient of deceit and disrespect and cruelty is hard to understand …that is not love !!! and yet to hear the words I love you constantly doesnt make sense. Here is a song he sent me many many many times calling it our song and how grateful he is for all we share and looks so forward to spending our lives together and I believed every word …none is true !!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y1oW_CBoAE
My heart is sore !!! I am grateful and have no doubt that G-D is in control but gosh my head is spinning and my desires that were spoken about but unacted on are always in my mind and more than anything I miss my friend and a man I would never ever ever have hurt and only protected as a friend or partner. I adored !!! him
Hi All!
I'm a guy that fell for a guy. He was funny, charming and wooed me like there was no tomorrow. Finally I found someone who liked to laugh. I was CONVINCED he was the one. He was in the process of breaking a 10 year relationship and I understood his situation. They were sleeping in separate rooms and were still living together. But I wasn't allowed to go over to his place…which again I understood. He said he just got bored with the ex partner (red flag #1). He said he was lying to him to justify the time he was spending with me (red flag #2). It made me wonder if he was going to lie to me someday….more about that later.
He was coming over a lot. We'd have sex or we'd watch tv and just enjoy one anothers company. I actually said I Love You first. But he couldn't say it back. He kept saying that he knew it bothered me, but he'd say it “someday.” After I said the L word, we stopped going out in public together. He would just come over and we'd hang. One day, I just began to feel that he wasn't there anymore. He just seemed to have gotten quieter and more distant. He came over one night and announced that He DID love me and wanted to spring it on me as a surprise. Deep down, I knew it was the beginning of the end as it wasn't sincere. Why would you wait? Weeks went on. . I actually got the opportunity to go over to his place as the ex was away. The house was OVERLY tidy. There was no clutter anywhere. He even had a shrine to himself in his bedroom (red flag # 3).
The devaluing came slowly and subtly. He made a snide comment to me as we made out. I was surprised to say the least. It came from nowhere. He didn't apologize and it cut me like a knife. Next night he cancelled his plans with me. I guess to make me atone for questioning him. I then proceeded to break contact, because I was really getting bad vibes. He came over and said that maybe he really didn't love me and we should start from scratch. I agreed.
I left for Christmas break and called him a few times. He said he missed me and longed for my return. When I returned he was like a new man. He was attentive, loving, and like he was at the beginning. I was totally in love again. We talked about moving in together and life was going to be soooo very happy.
Then BAM. He became cold and distant again. I tried harder to keep things going. We were eating a meal together and I asked him if he wanted ketchup….he accused me of stalking him. I was shocked and embarrassed. Next night, he sneezed and I got him a tissue, and he said I was smothering him. I was like, WHAT GIVES? We were suppose to be together the next night and he called it off. I was put off because we both had the next day off. He didn't call until 6pm. He asked to come over and we had sex. I felt like a booty call instead of a boyfriend. I ended it the next day.
I made a few attempts to try to work things out but was rejected. I was a bit sad that he didn't want to work on things. But then it occurred to me that if he really loved me…he'd do whatever it took to make things right.
I was getting false praise emails from him…and thought it was a sign he wanted to get back together. He said he didn't. I told him it was good closure. I instituted no contact and it's almost hitting 3 weeks –YAY!!!
I still see him out and about and he's like alive now. He always seemed depressed when he was with me. He sucked the life out of me and now he's living off the NS I fed him. I appealed to his vanity and his ego.
Run but never forget. They are master manipulators. They hone in on your vulnerability and then use it against you. He projected his depression onto me. I was targeted, as he mistook kindness for stupidity. I am just now coming out of the fog of confusion and regret for the time wasted. It's not about us…..It's ALL about them. They are ice-men. Devoid of feelings and emotion. They live for their next victim. I wish I had known about this website. I never knew that there was a disorder like this. I am now aware and vigilant of people like this! Thanks!
Sean, thank you for sharing your story. The most encouraging thing about it is how strong you are. Yes, you wasted time and gave him the benefit of the doubt too frequently. That is what we do when we fall in love. But you're 3 weeks in with no contact – clearly you are going to be totally fine. I hope that next time you will meet someone who is emotionally healthy enough to receive all the love that you have to give.
Thanks Susan!! This website has really been my moral support. Each day I feel more empowered and lucky to have gotten out with just my feelings hurt. I've discovered that I'm not a victim, but a survivor. We all need to say that to ourselves. We are not the broken ones….we are the strong. If loving someone unconditionally is co-dependent, then I'm guilty as charged and proud of it. I CAN care, feel empathy and emotion…that's my strength. I didn't see love as being a war, where one wins and the other is defeated. I can only say that I feel only pity for someone that feels threatened by being loved. Very sad when you think about it. Thanks again! Sean.
I encourage everyone who comes by here to read Sean's words here. He is in such a good, strong place emotionally. Love should not be war, and dating should not be combat.
You are so right that narcissists deserve pity, they are hollow shells who don't have the normal and healthy range of emotions. It's perhaps too much to ask, but at the very least it should help us say “Good riddance.” Narcissists are toxic, they poison everything good and earnest with their total lack of empathy.
I meant to get back to you sooner DEBRADAVID but had been flat out and spun out taking in this Keith Urban song. Went through it line by line and could explain what a perfect song for a narcissist -then lost it as it went beyond the word limit for You Tube's comment section where I was doing it. It's in my favourites , not by liking but a lesson in horror.
Here is my current You Tube comment “It sounds seductively lovely, but I think it's actualy the antithenem of what it purports to be. Was sent this by a girl being played by a narcissisit personality disorder type bewildered by his cruelty and sending her this “lovely song”
Analysed it, and yes it only realy promises what a narcissist will deliver and how they do. Chills down my spine, scary type. Hate this song greatly. The song writer is probably a narcissist, but a very clever one. Dump guys who send you this as a love song ASAP. “
Yes- he will love you like nobody loves you – think about it….who do you know in the past & present that you know have real love for you ever played you so cruely
Steal your attention like a bad outlaw – yes will take your attention like a crim..
Speak the language in a voice you have never heard- a narcissists outstanding feature, and already you've heard so many lies, inconsistencies, avoidances, cruel dismissals….
I'm going to be there for you from now on, you kind of know this- yes not for good and he does keep trying while lying..
You've been stretched to the limit but it's all right now -It is for him, not even saying how he is fixing it, needs you that way to do you over…
There will be a new day coming your way- sure will for the worse and narcissists are so inconsistent you actually get a new day nearly every day…want more of this??
He'll make your world LIKE A SILVER PIN – sounds pretty, but THINK sharp penetrating potential and otherwise ludicrously meaningless.
Lots of clever use of blending words and images that are of the old worlds we romanticise and yet often cruel truths entwined.
Do things like that in NLP & cults too. I could keep on with more lines from
this song… but enough of it.
Hope your seeing this song in another light, or questioning more.
In regard to letters he wrote: I had worked as a social worker in a prison and MANY of thee inmates, especially the seriously impaired pathological ones, while incarcerated wrote counless letters – just like those you were sent. These inmates did such letters to hang on to the partners they'd abused & disregarded when on the outside. The same for virtual strangers they wooed. If such an inmates partner was REALY finished with him, in a few weeks he could write the same way to any other female he thought he may interest.
It was one amazing feature I noted about inmates, marvelling about how widespead this talent was. How such romantic words could flow from some of the most crude depraved males!??- Was it prison food , the air?? Back then I didn't think that much about personality disorders. Yet most stable truly loving husbands don't or even can come up with that stuff. Nor would pretend to have the way of loving that women dream, about mirroring a woman.
Psycopathic/ narcissistic types lure their prey the putting out bait of what they recognise they desire,… only untill they have trapped them. May do it again briefly, that is if the prey had escaped so as to recapture.
And guess what the girlfriend has probably had much the same lies told to her with no less passionate intensity, and there will be many others too.
My ex N once slipped up.It happened when re telling me about the conversation he had with the person he picked out at his school to counsel him (not his role staff- kids were) when dumped by his wife- a more pathological level of the same or similar disorder as him.
Counselor had asked N what he thought love was. He had responded with
“love is when they believe your lies” and once he processed my dismay overthis being his answerand all the implications he then tried claiming he was just joking.
He hadn't been, as he'd just indicated being perplexed by his counselor not seeming to get it, as if there was something unusual or missing from his reply expecting further clarification on this. Remeber this definition as given by a narcissist. Revealed only because he got temporarily sloppy from recently being exited from a 20 yr marriage of an even more extreme ilk, plus drinking heavily then ( probably not even fully sober at school then either).
When I was involved with the ex N in the early stages I was in very much the same emotional psychological state you've described,Plus I was then with full on even physically involved24/7. I lacked the sense you had to restrain more involvement despite warning signs.
It is one of the most painful experiences in trying to leave them then, so confusing and in some ways seeming so logicaly necessary.
These days I really “understand” him. So I'm just repulsed by him. He is patently so pathetic and am aware of how capable of any evil.
There is nothing I miss about him ( just the cats there are missed).
I don't even wonder how can he, how could he. Irrelevant questions and concepts as he has NPD. I, as all other women. meant no more to him than any ant in his yard and pray he forgets me completely, I wish for himto find his soulmate – from hell , like he had in his ex wife.
Currently he lives on an online dating site. I check now and then ( not on it or any of them myself)to see he doesnt hit the “no recent emails batch”. No attention there for N is when he has ended up stalking my place very late at night & does petty bits of damage to the outside of my house or fences. If suspect my exN stalking odds are I illuminate areas , leave certain curtains part open, or remove or obscure items of temptation.He is busier and less stalkier & soon won't bother checking. Its boring plus hate having to do anything about him. After he had overdone stalking me, I did then indirectly guide him on that site once( very brief pseudo pofiles that went ASAP). Got the result I needed with him decreasing his restrictions for his goody profile, hence more site generated matches for him. Unbelievably stupid N in not figuring it out in thefirst place!
Any way everyone is advantaged. He should have found others to stalk locally & regained the confidence to do this over by now from police chatting to him years ago noting his funny night walks
Once he was one I thought I loved more than any others before. Yet now I can't understand now how that weird, evil incompetant creep I see with eyes really wide open -7 mths of no contact gives amazing clarity- could EVER have been the object of my delusions, Regardless of what cracks were in my make up ,or from impairements of early stage past relationships, pressures of divorce etc.,
It did happen and realy only an N could do it.
I'm recovering myself and life, but the cost psychologicaly, emotionaly, physicaly, economicaly and socialy was high, way too high.
Unfortunately for you it will hurt. Though keep as clearly away from him in contact of all types. Think as little about him as you can and if you do, keep very clear about what he is really like. Especially how you don't or ever will mean anything to him more than many others, all being fed parallel lies, often at the same times.
Don't waste prayers on him, read the “Narcissist Suck” blogs re where Christian's ought to stand with Narcissists. The writer is a savy, good devout Christian herself & I completely agree with her. In all other situations I take Christian values of loving others and compassion seriously, trying to live by them.
You will feel better soon enough ( depite any current pain levels, yearnings etc.,) and realise that you've learnt lessons that will later be of value.
All the best and good luck in your recovery.
Debra, please forgive me for not responding sooner. The blog is getting a lot of traffic, comments and emails and I am falling behind in trying to respond!
I am so sorry that you wound up in the crosshairs of such an amoral person. The thing about narcissists is, they have zero empathy, they can lack a conscience entirely. Your misfortune was in trusting this man based on the fact that you had known him since childhood and he seemed so sincere. I think most women would have responded in the same way. I cannot believe you went all that way to see him and he stood you up! That is so rude, so unkind, so selfish. He was willing to go to any lengths to prolong the deceit.
The bottom line is that this man is absolutely toxic for you. I don't think you can remain sane and whole if you have anything to do with him. I admire you for cutting off all contact, and you must stick to it! I know you fell hard for him, but there are other men out there who are NORMAL, who will not take and take and refuse to give anything. Just be glad you're not his wife – think how she must feel.
I do think it's interesting that you have wondered about his sexuality, and that your suspicion about this goes back to childhood. Repressed sexuality, whether straight or not, is powerful and damaging. If he is bisexual or gay, he may be dealing with his identity in ways that are manifesting themselves in extremely destructive ways.
Whatever the case, it's clear that you are well rid of him. I know it's very painful, and that you think you won't find that with anyone else. Just keep reminding yourself that a man like this could destroy you, and that you deserve better. It does make me wonder about his history with other women, and whether you are the first woman outside his marriage who has experienced this kind of intense but destructive relationship with him.
You are a good and trusting woman, and you have conducted yourself with flawless character. Only a small percentage of people suffer from NPD, so you can be reasonably sure it's unlikely to happen again. However, I hope you will heed the warning signs. Lying, evasiveness, extreme emotional intensity from the start, many promises without corresponding actions. I'm glad you have cut off all contact, and I urge you to never speak to him again!
I feel ike i was reading my own story. Not exactly, because i am this 15 years younger gf. The guy was never married. But the rest is same. During our relationship he was dating woman his age. He is 43 now. But finally after I have broke up with him, as i couldn’t stand his cheating he immediately moved into the different relationship with 20 years younger girl then him, who has kid and is not even yet divorced. This sweet meaningless words! Be happy you never got deeper into the relationship with him. I read a lot about NPD and it really helps me to understand that i am not the one who is to blame for the break up. And he is not the one to be blamed to – he is sick and i can only feel sorry for him. I wanted hurt his feelings but i have realized it is mission impossible. Now I am just feeling sorry for this empty person he is. Sorry for my English but I am from Europe
I will keep my story short, because it is true–narcissists are very predictable in their personality disorder traits–and all have been pretty much touched on in the above comments. BUT–the narcissist I had the unfortunate chance of getting ‘hooked” into for a little over a year was completely locked up in his past life with his first wife (she was 14 years old when they met). The N is now 55 years old. Within a month of our relationship I was meeting the “ex”, with her husband; however deciet was already in the works–both the N and his “ex” did not identify themselves as “ex’s”–just that they were good friends. I had to figure that one out on later that evening through conversation (sneaky); the following months were more meet-ups with the “ex” and sometimes her husband (they lived out of town). ONe evening after being on the lake all after with the “ex” he asked if she could come over and watch a movie with us (9:30 p.m.). Here is where the lack of empathy comes in…..Explaining to him that it was uncomfortable his continual talk of the “ex” (and he also frequently talked of ex-girlfriends as well) as well as just plain “wrong”. His response: “I’m not doing anything wrong” You are just insecure in our relationship (projecting their feelings on to you). All I can say is ALWAYS listen to you inner voice–it is for the most part 99% right…..Narcisists are predicable and yet evil. If your heart has the slighted inkling of a flag, be it red or yellow—take that as a warning to RUN not walk away
Kelly, I agree completely that it’s important to trust one’s intuition. I feel that as women we are very good at avoiding what we don’t want to see, or rationalizing. You know what’s really weird about your story? The role his ex played – why on earth would she still be hanging around like that?
Susan~~very good question! they fed off each other. I was told by both–”we’re like brother and sister”. A recent counsellor I spoke with about this stated it seemed incesstuous. I believe them both to be dysfunctional and complete “N’s” with no empathy for anyone but themselves. I have no idea why the “ex’s” husband even stays with her for that matter. I believe he just plays stupid to their little infatuation/ego stroking game. We had a south padre trip planned for mid-may, he wanted to invite the “ex” and her husband and even perhaps stay at their place one night since they lived close to South padre. last year I took the “N” with me to a Port A family/friends couples weekend and we were talking about bringing another couple–he suggested the “ex” and her husband. I ended up inviting a couple that were my friends. On the trip, my friend said she responded one time to the N’s continual talk about his “ex” with the statment: “Boy I hope you don’t talk about your ex’s to Kelly–I’m sure she would not like that.” N’s stay clear when they are discovered–believe me my whole family and circle of friends thought N was a complete idiot and creep. My mother said within the first 10 minutes of speaking with him she knew there was something wrong with him (she’s a social worker and very good at it).
Ooops—that “anonymous” reply is from me, Susan–sorry, I’m new at this = )
It does help those of us that have come into the grips of these evil N’s to seek professional help. To us, normal, emotional people–we can’t fathom how N’s can be the way they are and the good thing is we don’t need to–it’s there sickness. What’s important is that we have to go through the grieving process–I did and it hurt like you know what. But–allowing yourself to feel (something a N cannot do) moves us forward and we’ll be better for it down the road. An narcissist never moves forward, stuck in an emotionless world of turmoil–they don’t change. Just knowing that helped me to move on and leave this piece of work right where he belongs. They hate abandonment and that’s exactly what he got from me.
Kelly, you raise an important point. If friends and family don’t like your guy, stop and think about that. They love you and they hear alarm bells going off. It’s a real red flag. As for abandoning a narcissist, that is the only real satisfaction, a kind of sweet revenge. They cannot stand not having the last word, so moving on is not only best for you, but will make them even crazier. Unfortunately, they’ll just move on and hurt someone else, but that is not your problem.