Thinking Outside the Friend Box
“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.”
Wayne Gretzky
As far as I can tell, there are three different camps of guys that girls love to gossip about:
1. Guys they have the hots for.
2. Guys that suck.
Note: “Guys they have the hots for” often progress to “guys that suck” over time.
3. Guys they have personality crushes on.
Wait, what? What’s a personality crush?
Personality Crush (urbandictionary.com):
When you have a crush on someone because of his or her personality and not their looks. This often leads to conflict because you want to be in a relationship with the person, even though you’re not physically attracted to him or her.
Back in the day, we called those guys platonic friends, and we didn’t want to see their penises. Today, personality crushes are still the guys least likely to get laid, but there is something oddly intense about the feelings being expressed by these women, a kind of longing that didn’t accompany our platonic friendships.
Here are the things I hear girls say about their personality crushes:
- Ah, he is a total delight. I love him!
- He is precious, he is my most favorite boy ever.
- No, you can’t have him, he’s my personality crush!
- I don’t want to hook up with him now, but I’m definitely going to marry him.
- OMG, I have dibs. I want to have his babies in about ten years.
WTF? I don’t get it! If you think he is delightful, a great friend, a wonderful guy in every damned way, why not go for him?
Here’s their response:
- Oh, no, I’m not attracted to him.
- Maybe in a couple of years I would, but not now.
- No, we’re just friends. He feels exactly the same way.
- I just want hugs from him.
- I don’t know, it could happen if I was drunk, but I’m not gonna go there.
The current crop of 20 and 30-somethings is actually very good at platonic friendships. There are rules (stupid, ridiculous rules like The Man Code), to help provide guidelines about when it is OK to take a friendship to the next level and when it just isn’t cool, regardless of what both parties want.
I think each generation finds its own ways of relating and connecting. I can’t help but feel,though, like there is a lot of potential happiness being sacrificed here. Most of the personality crushes I hear described sound like great relationship material. In fact, the girls are onto something when they talk about those boys as the potential future fathers of their children.
Why are women keeping a separate friend box full of great guys? What purpose do “personality crushes” really serve?
1. Many potential relationships are never realized because there’s a looming expiration date.
Busy young people are always arriving and leaving. College schedules, summer trips, study abroad, new job in a new city, grad school, Teach for America, etc. I hear of many breakups that have a lot more to do with involuntary separation and logistics than with any real loss of feeling. Keeping a great guy at arm’s length is often easier in the long run.
2. Hooking up makes physical attractiveness and sexual chemistry the top priorities when choosing a partner.
If you’re not feeling it right from the start, you put the other person in the friend box, and there they stay. In the old dating model, you might accept a date with a guy thinking you weren’t all that attracted, and be very pleasantly surprised by how much you enjoyed yourself. People fell for each other for all sorts of different “personality” reasons. As a rule, for example, the homely class clown always had a pretty girlfriend.
3. Platonic friendships meet the need for emotional intimacy that hooking up deemphasizes.
They become more important than sexual relationships in many cases, and you are reluctant to risk them by getting physical. “What if this ruins our friendship?” becomes a very relevant and important question, and the stakes feel high.
4. Most personality crushes are “nice guys.”
As such, they suffer as girls continue to reward the jerks, the egomaniacs, and the narcissists.
5. Personality crushes are often a bit geeky or nerdy.
Many of the young women I know have fathers who were a little geeky or nerdy when they were young. As they aged, they grew into their looks and established themselves in successful careers. They were catches once women were interested in settling down. Young women today intend to marry someone like their dad. But while they’re young, they’d like to play. And nobody plays better than players.
I see the logic in all of these arguments. But at the end of the day, after I hear all the praise and appreciation for the personality crush, the conversation turns back to the guys who suck. Women treasure hugs from their guy friends, but they don’t want to see his penis.
I say it’s time to let your personality crush out of the friend box. Could be that’s the guy who can make you happy. Give him a shot. Better yet, you take the shot.
She shoots! She scores!
Do you have a personality crush story with a happy ending?
Related posts:
Great post! I can relate to it because I am unfortunately a nice guy who all-too-often ends up in the “friend box.” Most recently this happened to me (again) with someone I met online and connected very well with. After about a month and a couple of great 'meetings' together it was obvious she had a personality crush on me – but that's it.
I know that the person who places me in this box is (most of the time) always dating other men as well, who are more than likely (1) Guys they have the hots for, or (2) Guys that suck, but are also the ones receiving the physical need from a relationship. Me on the other hand, I get stuck fulfilling her emotional needs. You know — boosting her ego a bit, getting her to laugh and think positively, only to be let down when she goes out with the other more physically fulfilling guy (at least in appearance). This ends up draining the fun out of a “friendship” and I typically find myself telling the other person it's not going to work out between us. I burn my bridges, to be more specific.
But is it worth staying in the friend box rather than burning my bridges?
In my experience, staying in it has either led to a bigger let down later on, or I'll start to feel like a therapist rather than a potential boyfriend. Other times I get the, “you are coming on too strong – but can we just be friends” sort of talk. Either way, I'm the one who usually gets hurt and ego-bruised; she just moves on and finds another nice guy to take my old spot in the box.
I realize the odds are my personality crush is simply waiting to call me up to the 'big league' when the time is right – which can take months or years. I'm usually very patient, but with some women I meet, patience can only go so far after feelings of rejection creep in when I realize she put me into her friend box.
What should us nerdy, nice guys do?!
~Lonely Nerd
You know this makes me think more about my posting about my stud vs dud yesterday. I know plenty of “nice guys” that I am not overly attracted to looks wise, but they are great guys and I love spending time with them. I am guilty of keeping them in the friend box, and honestly I know for a fact that one of them has the hots for me, but I am afraid to take that any further, because what happens to us if things don't mesh. But what is funny is we already do mesh. Hmmmm……… once again got something to think about.
Yeah, interesting stuff from the mouth of babes as it were. Platonic friends? Had plenty of them. Personality crushes? Perhaps a bit more rare, but I was long term 'good guy' pals with plenty of women. The thing is? Time is really of the essence. While everyone fritters away their 20's searching & sometimes enjoying all the 'hotness', plenty of those steady nerdy guys are getting married. Yes, really. They're the marrying types. So if you want 'their baby in 10 years' or 'totally want to marry them', they'll likely be otherwise occupied. You might fill in for the 2nd or 3rd wife, (hey there's a good chance of that too), but by then? Everyone is going to have a hard time recalling your name. So what were you doing when you passed up that 'passable friend'?
A limited selection of possible excuses for not talking up that friendly 'nerd' (Can mostly apply to either sex too):
1.) Was deeply involved enjoying all the hot dirty, raunchy, dangerous sex with the deeply irresponsible yet ever so cute 'hottie'.
2.) Waiting for same to get out of jail after another 'misunderstanding'.
3.) Waiting for same & the child support that never comes.
4.) Deeply involved with scrambling to arrange child care & schooling for my children as my 'baby daddies' are still the same beautiful/attractive deadbeats they ever were.
5.) Overcoming the addictions & wreckage of same introduced by the once 'cool' gf/bf.
6.) Recovering from years of abuse from a long succession of 'beautiful' people who will use people and then dispose them at will. (See Narcissistic Personality Type below).
7.) Recovering from some high grade STD's introduced by same lovely, exciting but philandering lover(s).
8.) Too scared to 'try again' after a series of abusive relationships that drained you (and your young kids) emotionally, spiritually, financially & physically.
9.) Too busy fantasizing over the 'magic one' with the foot long wonder snake, the Playboy model you 'almost had a chance with way back when' with the perfect 36DD breasts and 'winning to do anything once'.
10.) Still applying really silly HS criteria to trying to find a 'lifetime mate' or at least one that might stick around to raise the kids properly.
But yeah. I've got a pretty jaundiced view of much of this by now. The actual learning is rare. The kids want what they want. The 'adults' do too. If that means Mr. Tall Dark handsome & Ivy League educated with a mid 6 figure Safe income MUST have the enhanced sexual performance characteristics of a lithe, young Cirque du Soleil performer and endowed with mule like proportions & proclivity below the waist? So be it. They think they truly deserve it. And then, ONLY then do they throw in the 'extraneous' 'personality features' they rave about in the 'non hot' guys. But hey, it'll take them until, well When exactly? To finally discover that those magical beings are truly indeed Rare, and are wanted & desired by nearly everyone. Of Both Sexes!
But take it from them. They're essentially told us that they're not really ready for serious relationships if when asked can't imagine dating 'those guys'. Too 'tender & kind'. It's just a fantasy for them. It's something to look back on when they're 40 something & with the same handsome big dumb schlemiel. Useful as he was, he was never one for conversation. Or culture. Or 'cultured' music. Or 'doing relationships' well.
These gals KNOW the 'other guys are Good relationship material. And Quite 'marriageable'. Now. But they actually don't Want them Or Desire them. That could & might change, but it would take a willingness from Both parties to 'see' the possibilities here. And mostly? Except for the Very smart & insightful gals? It Never happens. Not when they're 20 something, not even 30 something. The 'boring/kind/generous nerds' just never make the cut. Maybe for the heavily 're-tread' 40 something crowd, (for the inevitable 2nd or 3rd hubby), but long after all the much of the real excitement is over and almost all possibility for continued fertility. Which is the point. The inevitable attractive 'bad boys', usually win in the reproduction race. And perhaps that's the way it's always been & will continue to far into the future. Learning. Often takes decades. But only for the fortunate. The rest are commonly caught in hells of their own making. But hey, it works 'good enough' better than 50% of the time, so don't knock it! Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
Sorry about the typos up there, I think the gist of it should be mostly clear. The link to the Time story below, tells us that no matter how 'cute' they are today, everyone changes in marriage. Especially physically. And that bet you made today about the 'hotness' continuing on for the foreseeable future? Well it's no safer than playing the market presently. But again few people have time horizons to actually think 5-10 years out, & Strategically either. That hawt thing in your bed tonight is all anyone much cares about for much of the time. And that indeed serves a useful purpose. Just really don't expect to be able to carry on an actual conversation with this person in oh, say 10 years time. That's what the gals are telling you. They value Mr. Nerd's friendship, and his particular & perhaps peculiarly unusual relationship skills. But they're not really attracted to him, and can't imagine how that might work. It's a clear lack of imagination, and a less hopeful conception of future possibilities, even from safely middling classes. And time will tell whether their brains will ever catch up to their loins. Following the news lately? You'd have to imagine that's a long shot for any gender!
Again an interesting topic. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,917...
Aw, Lonely Nerd, that sucks for you, but I really appreciate your leaving a comment and sharing. The first thing I would say is that you should not stick around to fulfill the emotional needs of a woman if you know that is all she wants from you. Friendship is a two-way street, and should be rewarding for both parties. If you are providing emotional support and getting nothing in return, then you are being used to prop up her ego.
Planning to be the “last man standing” is a strategy that works sometimes. The best friend hangs in there and at some point the relationship develops into something romantic. However, that usually is effective when two people feel the attraction, but one is in another relationship or the timing is off in some way.
Finally, if you are hearing from multiple women that you are coming on too strong, then you are probably coming on too strong. Friendship is the best base for a relationship, so focus on that first. Give her plenty of breathing room. Don't make a move forward until you sense that she is on the same page. Women get creeped out when guys are too focused on them too soon.
You sound like a great guy who is looking for something real. Focus on the qualities in a woman that feel compatible with yours. Are you all about the online photo, or are you willing to look deeper in the way you want women to look deeper to appreciate you?
Just some thoughts -
That's awesome! I firmly believe that sexual attraction can grow from a relationship that works on other levels. The brain is the sexiest organ we have, so if someone captures your attention that way, I think the rest can develop if you give it some time.
Aarrrghghghgh VJ, those 10 excuses apply to the dregs of society! Readers here are indeed smart and insightful – no one is looking for some baby daddy to knock them up. But I agree with the point you are making. Those great guys who come into their own during their 20s will indeed have options, and women too stupid too appreciate them will miss out. Our culture and its inflexible standards of beauty have created crazy unrealistic expectations on the part of both men and women, as you point out. Everybody loses when they're pursuing that magical, mythical creature.
One other thing: tender, kind, generous are all good. But you also mention boring guys. No one wants boring, except maybe other bores. Both women and men should make an effort to cultivate interests, which will in turn make them interesting. Let the beautiful, shallow people have each other. Most of us really are looking for something more than that, and indeed, most women will figure that out (with a little help from me
VJ, I agree that lack of imagination is the culprit. You're also right about how we all decline physically – that is a very risky basis on which to select a mate. We've all been to the high school reunion where the star quarterback is bald and overweight, throwing back the Heinekens with his buds in the corner, reliving his days of glory. (Or at least we've seen it in the movies.) Time does have a way of catching up with all of us. Beauty does not last.
I dated my personality crush on and off for like 3 years. And as it turns out I was the nice girl who he wanted to marry in 5 years but he was the guy who I felt comfortable telling everything to even though he was a total jackass. um, whoops. Thank god that's over…
I strongly advocate the difference of being “attracted by” someone and being “attracted to” someone — I think that a relationship can start by either one…but has to have both to be sustained.
I am often very willing to let guys out off of the friendship ladder…but that also means I've lost a lot of really good friends because we've broken up.
I suppose the issue becomes–how important is physical chemistry in a relationship? For me, it's irreplaceable; I've tried several times to turn a personality crush into a relationship and found the chemistry never comes.
Maybe it's just the guys I've tried, though. What do you guys think? Does physical chemistry need to be there from the get-go?
http://ignighter.com
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This is the second time a post here has hit a nerve with me. Actually, “hit” does not do it justice; more like smacked the nerve around like a red-headed stepchild!
I was particularly geeky and shy as a teenager, and only slightly less of one in college. Throughout that time whenever I approached a girl I was almost immediately put in the friend zone. During this time there was alot of turmoil in my family, which left me fearful of losing relatively stable friendships outside my instable home. So I basically worked very hard to keep my friends happy. Unfortunately this turned me into a doormat. It took me years to get over this… well into my 30's. During that time I never had a girlfriend, and had very few dates. I even went out with women I was not attracted to… the sad thing is I did not fare any better with them.
That whole experience has left me pretty bitter here in my 30's. And it has left me with a big chip on my shoulder. Women who are around my age, say 32-40, start out with a huge disadvantage around me now. Whenever one of them starts flirting with me, or makes noises about wanting to move past “friends” with me I get defensive. I find myself thinking “Wow, I am so honored that now you have gotten done sowing your wild oats with all the jackasses you dated when we were in school that you have finally deigned to settle for me to raise their children”. I know it is not fair; I doubt that is what they are actually thinking and a large number of them did not behave that way in school. But because of my bad fortune and years of rejection those kinds of thoughts are reflexive for me. I am not proud of this attitude…
However it is not likely to change. The years of loneliness and rejection have left me used to a solitary life; one where I took solace in having the freedom to do as I please without having to consult with anyone. I now place high value on my free time. I won't “settle” for being a woman's consolation prize. I would rather stay alone.
And I do find it amusing that I now find myself behaving in many ways like the women who used to scorn me. If I do not feel an initial attraction I just dismiss them out of hand. And I am friends with many women my age who I have no interest in dating. Funny how that works out, yes?
Decoybetty, I agree that you can't make a relationship work if the physical attraction never does arrive. It may not be the first thing you think of, but if you don't start feeling physical cravings for the other person at some point, it obviously cannot work, because from there it's just a short step to “I don't like the way you sound when you breathe.” Your point about friendship is also true – very hard to put guys back in the friendship box once they've escaped it.
Generally speaking, these men are all give and are breaking their own hearts wanting. They just lack the knowledge of how to crank up the attraction. If the guy is just a light-switch away from being the perfect man for you, then all he needs is a little bit of give from you. That might be something as small as a haircut suggestion. He's already dying to be with you and will take a hint here and there.
(You'd best get on that before he discovers the Mystery Method and that ilk.)
Then, all you will have to do is be as amazing as he *thinks* YOU are.
Screwtape, eventually, despite all the strum und drang & evident suffering, you've got to swallow some pride and try and work your way though some of the possibilities, if offered. If you still desire some female companionship. Yeah, it sucks in retrospect and life is unfair, but on the other hand, most of the likely prospects probably had little idea of what they were doing at the time. So just consider that. They did not recognize you as a 'decent possibility' until they matured or grew wiser. That's unfortunate, but it's still lucky for you when you can discover one who may suit your fancy & 'lifestyle' now. It can still happen, and I've seen it done every day. There may be one or several oats left in them too, BTW. Word to the wise… But like I said, the lot of the 2nd or 3rd hubby is not particularity unpleasant mostly. Just a little bit more predictable. But you knew that too.
And yes Susan, I know a few middle class people for whom many of my Top 10 applies to. You'd be surprised, I guess. And boring is in the mind of the beholder. If you don't know or understand what I'm talking about (a pretty common thing, mostly, for many folks), you'll find me boring. Unless I'm talking about you & your interests. It took me awhile after HS to figure that out. So instead of telling them about me, I ask about them. This means that eventually I can talk to nearly anyone about anything. And no doubt start an argument over same. Annoying? Perhaps. Boring? Only when I need to be, I guess. But I did regularly put dates to sleep when talking. The wife claims it's the quality of my voice. Soothing we imagine… Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
And yes, I'm certain I'll forget my profile for your new system here Susan. There's just too damn many systems, passwords & firewalls to go around. So if I disappear, know that the machines did me in! Cheers, VJ'
Hey, Blair, thanks for weighing in. I agree that the chemistry is important, but here's what I wonder: are women choosier than they used to be with respect to physical traits, and less focused on other characteristics? I feel like our culture rewards looks more than ever – yes, James Bond was always the prototypical playboy, but many women would steer clear of players a generation ago, knowing that leads to misery. Now it seems like women are all going after the same few incredibly hot guys, bracing themselves for heartbreak, while “nice” guys feel like they need to step up their doucheyness to get any play.
Screwtape, I feel enormous empathy for your story. It is ironic that you find yourself now rejecting women out of hand. However, I urge you to really spend time working out the feelings of bitterness. They sound justified, but we are all responsible for our own happiness, and life is so damned short! I guess it depends on what you really want, but I think every human being wants to love and be loved. The women you meet today are not responsible for the hurts you suffered years ago, and I what I wish for you is that you stay open to the possibility of love. OK, not to sound all Ann Landers on you, but I am a big, big believer in therapy – have done it and wish I could afford to do it all the time, basically. So if you haven't gone down that road, I urge you to consider it. This is not to say that you are to blame in any way, just that venting to a highly educated stranger can do wonders for the psyche.
Chris, that is awesome advice! God, I really love it when guys comment. So often we women feel like guys are calling all the shots, and it is such an eye opener for me to realize how we're basically all in the same boat. While I believe that hookup culture benefits men more than women (NSA sex, anyone?), when it comes to relating emotionally and building something real, we're all in the same boat.
Haha, VJ you are anything but boring! My guess is that you were dating down in terms of smarts for a while there. But yes, I agree, being generous in conversation and taking a genuine interest in the other person goes a long way toward making and keeping things interesting.
Wait, what? I don't have a new system – are you having difficulty commenting? Because that would be a real loss!
I know we are writing this for girls who put all these guys in just the friend zone, but I don't think there is a real difference between what guys and girls do to each other anymore. I am the nice girl who the guys want to take home to mom in um 5 years and am almost always either dismissed or put in the friend zone. I don't really date guys who are not nerdy. However, in NYC all guys think they are god's gift to women and if they are in their 20s and early 30s they tend not to want to “settle down”. And to make me feel better all my guy friends tell me that I'm amazing and a keeper and am obviously dating guys who don't want a keeper.
I think that the problem is that us young folks because of all this hooking up really don't know that a relationship is more then having sex. We like to get to it right away even when we try to date. Yes, attraction is important but you can be attracted to a person for lots of reasons. What is annoying to me is that I generally am more attracted to the personality then the physical person. The last guy I dated I probably wouldn't have given the time of day to based on just his looks. However, once we started getting to know each other he became hot. I guess I am a rare 20 something that is totally willing to give the nerdy guy who I have a personality crush on a chance because someone who makes me feel great about myself and makes me laugh is way more attractive then someone who has six pack abs and is a total DB.
So I guess the question is why can't the nice/nerdy girls and guys ever meet? I always feel like this is the case. The nice guy never finds the nice girls and the nice girls never find the nice guys. What is the deal? If there are all these people being put in to platonic friendships why can't they find the other people who are always cast aside for the more attractive but much more vapid model? Oh well when someone can show me where all these nice nerdy guys are who are ready for a relationship I will be the first one there to give it a shot.
Yeah, I think you're right about this, Meg. What we've got is everyone gunning for 10% of the population. Which brings us right back to the question of how narcissistic we've all gotten. If everyone is reluctant to “settle”, based on physical characteristics alone, the birth rate in the US is going to drop precipitously.
Thinking outside the friend box works best when you have a platonic friend who you know, or sense, is crushing on you. It applies to friendships already firmly in place, where one person has developed feelings for the other, perhaps even surprising themselves. In those cases, I would say it pays to think about whether that friend might be good to date, even though they may not be your type.
In your case, how about one of those guy friends who think you're amazing and a keeper? That sounds like a good start.
Sadly all those awesome guys are married or dating my great and awesome girlfriends. Believe me I have thought about it and often wonder why I haven't meet these guys first. My question is how old is lonely nerd and where does he live?
Well, I know there are alot of us here in Huntsville, Alabama… the place is swarming with engineers and scientists. A good number of the guys I know are single, and most of them do not have my issues. Only problem with this area is that there are not many venues to meet people here. I suppose it makes sense in a city primarily composed of nerds and bible-thumpers…
Still, I cannot complain: Huntsville has largely escaped the economic problems of the rest of the country. So I suppose lack of a nightlife is a decent tradeoff for job security…
Sadly all those awesome guys are married or dating my great and awesome girlfriends. Believe me I have thought about it and often wonder why I haven't meet these guys first. My question is how old is lonely nerd and where does he live?
Well, I know there are alot of us here in Huntsville, Alabama… the place is swarming with engineers and scientists. A good number of the guys I know are single, and most of them do not have my issues. Only problem with this area is that there are not many venues to meet people here. I suppose it makes sense in a city primarily composed of nerds and bible-thumpers…
Still, I cannot complain: Huntsville has largely escaped the economic problems of the rest of the country. So I suppose lack of a nightlife is a decent tradeoff for job security…