Do Pretty Girls Have it Harder?



If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

Never make a pretty woman your wife

So from my personal point of view

Get an ugly girl to marry you

Jimmy Soul, 1970


bblove

Do beautiful women have a harder time finding real love? I bet Jennifer Aniston thinks so. The woman in this photo writes the great blog Live.to.the.point.of.tears, and is the author of Words to Date By, which I posted a few months ago here at HUS. It’s clear that like everyone else, she’s had her share of disappointments and douchebags, though I have a hard time imagining that she doesn’t get and keep whoever the hell she wants.

Conventional wisdom and research provide lots of evidence that good-looking people enjoy many advantages in life. They make friends more easily, get more promotions at work, and presumably have no trouble attracting members of the opposite sex. They are perceived to have a very high mating value.

So why do I know so many beautiful unhappy and lonely women? I know what you’re thinking: Cry Me a River.

To the rest of us, beautiful people are coasting on their looks, getting all sorts of stuff they didn’t have to work for. When I was in middle school, my family moved from New York to LA. In New York, I’d been feisty and outspoken, confident in my smarts and my Irish looks. When I got to LA I realized right away that things were not going to go so well for me there. Where I was short and curvy, with dark hair, the ideal California girl was…well, you know exactly who she was. She was the woman in this photo.

In the end, guys didn’t like me much in high school, but the girls did. I wound up as court jester to the most beautiful, perfect blondes on campus. I was granted a full array of priveleges, such as going over to help them get ready for formal dances, or coordinating the publicity for their various elections. They effortlessly reeled in all the hottest guys and made them boyfriends.

What’s changed? Well, for one thing, in that era guys derived social status from being able to attract and keep a hot girlfriend. They were pretty much the only guys getting regular sex. Today, that’s been turned upside down. In his 2008 book Guyland, Michael Kimmel makes some interesting observations about the way men aged 18-26 view relationships today:

  • “Because Guyland is so homosocial, it requires the relentless assertion of heterosexuality.”
  • “The guys who appear the most disinterested are the ones who end up being the coolest, and that the girls find most attractive. When women decline sexual advances, they threaten masculinity.  That’s why guys like porn so much:  the women are compliant.”
  • “Sex in Guyland is guys’ sex.  Women are welcome to act upon their sexual desires, but guys run the scene.  Many young women are biding their time, waiting for the guys to grow up and start acting like men.”
  • “If sex were the goal, a guy would have a much better chance of having more (and better) sex if he had a steady girlfriend.  Instead, guys hook up to prove something to other guys.  The actual experience of sex pales in comparison to the experience of talking about sex.”


For guys, scoring sex becomes the most important goal on any given evening. Therefore, it is important to maximize your chances for success by avoiding girls where the risk of rejection is high. Hooking up with a girl deemed unattractive by your buddies is explained away by your drunkenness, and is vastly preferable to “not getting any.” This leads most guys to pursue whatever woman they feel is most likely to accept their advances.

Beautiful women, expecting to have a high mating value, find themselves targeted by only the most sexually aggressive men. These tend to be men who are extremely good-looking and have a strong track record of hooking up with whomever they want. It is they who have the highest mating value, sexually speaking. If they were interested in a relationship, they would likely target girls of similar attractiveness, but few of them are. Often, very good-looking girls discover that they are only the newest challenge, the most difficult sexual conquest, for a popular guy. As long as guys derive status from “banging bitches” instead of having girlfriends, none of this is likely to change.

This short film, Not Pretty, Really was shown at Sundance in 2006. It’s less than three minutes, so hang in there – I especially want you to watch the woman who comes on at 1:50. It’s powerful and moving.

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd4Gpi9ksXw


Last semester, a very good-looking young woman got the following text on her phone late at night from a frat star she barely knew:

ur so hot i wanna cum on your tits 2nite

When she told me about it, she sounded very much like the woman in this film. She said, “Guys say disgusting things to me when they’re drunk. I wish I could meet someone who wanted to get to know me, someone who would get me.”

What happens as men age and presumably become more interested in having a real relationship?

In researching this question, I discovered that the question of why beautiful women are often perpetually unattached is a very popular one on dating and relationship forum sites, which cater to singles in their 20s and older.

A representative sample of male responses:

“I find pretty women intimidating. I would rather approach a less-attractive woman who might accept my advances.”

“Most men are intimidated by good looks. They think that because she looks good, she must be high maintenance, hard to get, already dating, and snobby. The few men that do approach her are all players who like to play head games just to get into her panties and claim her as a trophy. Some men that date beautiful women know this. They know that in most cases, beautiful women are single, fed up of head games and craving for a real man to approach them and desire them for who they are and not solely for their bodies.”

“Guys don’t want other guys drooling over their girlfriend.”

“Men do not like to approach women that they believe everyone wants.”

“Yes, guys do find it harder to talk to extremely attractive girls. Not intimidation necessarily, but a conviction that they’re just not in her league. Girls need to make themselves approachable. They need to try to initiate things, make eye contact with guys that they like. They should smile and be cute.”

“This girl must have already heard all possible pick-up lines and would not welcome an approach.”

“As far as looks go, “cute” is accessible, “pretty” is inaccessible, and “beautiful”, unattainable. A client of mine used to be a fashion model in New York. She’s smart and she has been around long enough to know it’s her looks that guys are interested in, and she won’t put up with it.”

“Remember in school when the quarterback got the prettiest girl? Believe me, guys remember, and not many of us were the quarterback. Men also have problems with self confidence and when presented with a choice between a cute girl that we have a chance with and a pretty girl that seems like a long shot, we are going to play it safe and go with cute. And relationships also have economics- the more attractive the women is the more resources a guy needs to get the girl- a fancy car, nice house, good job, or at least that how it works in a guys head. You can tell me how true that may be, but even if it’s not, the perception may well be more important then the truth.”


What’s a gorgeous girl to do?

  • Bide your time, your day will come.
  • Do not allow yourself to be objectified and used as an opportunity for some player to boast about having nailed you.
  • Focus on friendships first. A guy who cares for you as a friend is less likely to use you, and more likely to develop real feelings.
  • Be approachable, so that nice guys consider taking a chance. When you like a guy, find ways to let him know that he has a shot.


And the rest of us?

  • Hey, their loss is our gain. Most relationships today develop from hookups, and if you’re more likely to get the hookup, you have a better shot at the relationship.
  • Don’t kid yourself, though. You’re just as likely to be objectified and discussed with his peers the next day. If you want a relationship, be smart about who you have sex with.
  • Ditto the rest of the advice: Focus on friendships first. A guy who cares for you as a friend is less likely to use you, and more likely to develop real feelings.
  • Be approachable and friendly. And be yourself, because you are beautiful!

The truth is, we all want to be known, men and women alike. We seek short-term validation, but what we really crave is for someone to really see us, and to love what they see. We may get there at different times, we may get kicked to the curb a few times in the process. All of us, the beautiful and the less so, have an equal shot at happiness and real love with the right person.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://FT.com/ VJ

    “Do pretty girls have it harder?” Umm not usually. And not untypically it's certainly a 'two way street'. they're also looking for the 'pretty boys' who like share in some of their characteristics, issues & problems. That's only part of the central problem here.

    The other of course is the supreme tragedy that like, they get paid more 'cause they're prettier, hired more often because of it, liked more for this, (yes, resented for it too), given free gifts just for being 'fabulous', and yeah they seemingly & often age better too. So yeah. Just speaking for my short fat slobbo self (and those of my fellow countrymen), I feel for them. I just can't tell you where.

    But No, “Do beautiful women have a harder time finding real love? ” Not anymore than anyone else. It's what they're seeking that's often the problem. If they seek to consistently demand a 'premium' of attention/worship/reward/status/riches Just because they're 'beautiful'? They're going to be often disappointed. As are the rest of us who were/are 'lucky' enough to date a few of these 'high bred' wonders. Then we come to realize that no one's ever mentioned to them about possibly adding any 'value added' features to their pretty faces and/or 'banging' bods. Like high intelligence. Or a cultivated interest in the world around them and serious study of some aspect of this. Perhaps a knowledge and participation in the arts. Some real empathy for the suffering that goes on all around us. This is what makes people truly beautiful. It's the cultivation of things concerning beauty & truth & justice. And truly, beauty w/o brains? Is really boring, just as one might suspect. It gets old very fast. Faster than anyone might suspect too.

    But yeah we do not often find this in 20 somethings or even 30 somethings, and so much the mores' the pity for it. So I strongly suspect that things 'even out' as we age. The aging beauties slowly discover the rest of the world & become friendly with more the 'normals' or 'mere mortals'. They let their hair down and come to appreciate life more for what it is and their roles in it. That's when real love can blossom for anyone. IMHO. Cheers, 'VJ'

  • susanawalsh

    I hear you, VJ, and I expected this response. I know this does happen, beautiful women expecting to be worshipped and adored. But honestly? I personally know at least a dozen young women who are the whole package: Lovely to look at, smart, curious, funny, interesting, generous. And they're all unattached. It strikes me as bizarre. Of course, they're not alone – many young women who would like to be in a relationship are unable to find one, at least a quality one. But it's been my observation that the real knockouts often get only the kind of attention from men that no woman wants (unless she's walking the streets).

    This is generational. You and I did not live through this while young. Women under, say 30, are having a different experience. And that age will keep rising, because, graduating college students are bringing hookup culture with them into post-grad life. Hooking up well into the 20s, and even 30s is pushing back dating, relationships, marriage, for better or worse (one guess one where I weigh in on that one).

    • Bob

      “I personally know at least a dozen young women who are the whole package: Lovely to look at, smart, curious, funny, interesting, generous. And they’re all unattached.”

      Oh really? Prove it. Personally Susan, I call BS on your statement quoted above. I base my opinion on personal experience in the school of hard knocks.

    • Kurt

      The problem is that a lot of those women are so jaded that if a decent guy did chase after one of them, they are often very distrustful and frequently do extremely annoying things to scare him away. No guy wants to be with a woman who is very distrustful.

      • Jo

        “The problem is that a lot of those women are so jaded that if a decent guy did chase after one of them, they are often very distrustful and frequently do extremely annoying things to scare him away. No guy wants to be with a woman who is very distrustful.”

        You said it yourself: They’re ‘so jaded’. And why do you think that is, sir? Hmmmm, I wonder….

        After having experienced so many womanizing, frat and pretty boy-dogs, is it any wonder that a woman may become distrustful? Hmmmm, maybe that was a rhetorical (sp?) question, lol.

        • Kurt

          Those women may have experienced womanizers, but that was because those were the guys that those women wanted or hung out with. There are lots of decent guys who get ignored by many women in college. A decent guy who was ignored by most of the women in his college days is not going to settle for a jaded woman if he can help it – he won’t tolerate a distrustful and angry woman and will pursue women who seem nicer and more appreciative.

  • megslife

    I agree with you Susan that the hookup culture has hurt this aging gracefully and normalizing things out. I know that a core group of my older single girlfriends feel that they are now being passed over. Many of these girls would be considered beautiful, but they are now competing with the young 20somethings for the 30 to 40 something men. I'm not sure if it evens out as we age anymore because of this hookup culture. Dating is so impossible IMO regardless of how beautiful you are or you think you are.

  • skanti

    I have to say I enjoyed this article and especially agree with the above comments. I think dating is hard for everyone whether you are short, tall, chubby, skinny, blonde or brunette. After watching that short film you posted Susan – I definitely agree with the last girl who was tearing up. I see myself as descent looking gal – I know Im not unfortunate looking but I don't consider myself the most beautiful woman in the world either.
    I'm a medical student & last year I had a professor who would single me out in front of the class. He would call me America's Next Top Model rather than my name. In class we were learning how to do patient exams and I was always being called to demonstrate how to exam the male genitalia and always being asked about dieases related to the penis. This was on a daily basis and I began to hate going to class – I kept thinking I'm hear to learn so just ignore all the sexual innuendos. I complained every day to my mom that semester. I tried not to draw attention to myself during class like downplaying my dress or sitting further towards the back…really nothing worked. I remember getting dirty looks from other girls in class and the guys really couldn't care much (of course!). That semester was rough and I did not feel pretty really. Its kindof ashame that people thinks its ok to make inappropriate comments to any girl, maybe they think some girls are use it so its ok. Whatever the reason – I agree with what was said in the article about most players are usually up for the challenge with hot girls – so there is no quality whateversoever & most women want the quality despite their own looks. I guess the saying applys- never judge a book by its cover – even if its pretty!

  • susanawalsh

    Ugh, it is so frustrating that when the guys are finally ready for something real, there's a crop of young babes in their early 20s! On the other hand, those women are also saying their not getting any quality attention. Someone's gotta get into relationships if we're going to propagate the species…

    I think things may get a bit worse before they get better, but the pendulum ALWAYS swings back eventually.

  • susanawalsh

    Skanti, nice to meet you, thanks so much for leaving a comment about your own experience. OMG, that professor is such an asshole! That kind of sexual harrassment is inexcusable. You're smart, a serious student, and you're being singled out in the most demeaning way. How could you possibly feel pretty in that setting – it's exactly like the woman in the film.

    You also make another interesting point. Women get envious of each other, and that doesn't help. I do hear of women being excluded by other women in the workplace and in social settings, and I believe it's often because they are very attractive. They don't want the competition. All you can do is make friendships where you can, hope another woman will give you a shot even though you are pretty. It's ridiculous! Dissing a pretty woman is not going to make you any prettier, it's really not going to get you any more guys.

    You are so right about not judging people by their looks, one way or the other. We all have feelings and emotional needs.

  • hambydammit

    I know you knew I'd have to weigh in on this. To put an evolutionary spin on it, this is a perfect example of how our consistent, innate evolutionary strategies adapt to a changing environment. It's also a disturbing and stark clarification of a basic concept of natural selection: *Evolution doesn't care if you're happy. It cares if you reproduce successfully.*

    The cultural value of long term monogamous relationships has gone down very significantly in the last half-century. In and of itself, this is neither good nor bad. Many women have been liberated in significant ways, and women have more choices now than they've ever had, from full time mom to full time career, and they can accomplish pretty much any of them without social stigma. The price for that is that men have adapted to women's new dating strategies.

    The uncomfortable truth about very good looking women is that they are still women, and still likely to follow the female dating strategy, which, as you know, often involves occasional cheating. It's just a sad truth — whether they *want* to be high maintenance or not, beautiful women are offered the moon on a regular basis, and if their men are not keeping up with the hundreds of Joneses, eventually, there's a good chance she's going to like one of the offers more than she likes her man.

    Men, being slightly smarter than portrayed on sit-coms, realize that keeping beautiful women (especially in the hook-up culture) is very, very difficult, and many of them automatically put beautiful women in the hookup-only category.

    The flip side is that very attractive men make lousy long-term partners, on average. The male drive to have sex with lots of women is just as strong in them as any other man, with the notable difference that they really can pretty much have as many women as they want.

    Where it gets really nasty is that both beautiful men and women still have an instinctual understanding of their own worth. A ten knows she can date a ten, and let's be honest — fucking a ten is really exciting, even if you happen to be a ten yourself. Since we've bitten the bullet and admitted that looks do matter, we see the conundrum. A ten will feel like she's “settling” if she dates a stable 5 who isn't going to cheat on her. She'll know she could do better, and every new ten that crosses her path will make her question — “Is he the one genuinely nice ten who would be faithful and stable?”

    Of course, this isn't to say that all beautiful people are assholes. Clearly, there are beautiful people who are also very nice. But let's be honest, like when we admitted that looks matter. The more beautiful someone is, the more they can have if they want to take it. Mating *is competition* and it's just not in human nature to try not to do as well as you can. We humans also tend to think of ourselves as “special individuals.” You can see it in the video. We all think we're different from the crowd. We think, “Yeah, I'm a ten, but I'm not like all the other tens. I'm nice and caring and wonderful and smart.” We overestimate our own potential for remaining faithful. Women look at the guys who pass them up because they're too pretty and think, “WAIT! I'm not like the other girls!” The thing is, maybe you're not, but guys, like girls, play an ODDS GAME when dating. The odds are not good for dating a ten, either in getting her in the first place, or keeping her. Most men prefer to go after what they know they have a good chance of getting.

    It's natural to take it personally, but not accurate. If you look like other beautiful people who hook up all the time and don't make good long term partners, that's what people are going to think you are. They aren't being mean to you personally. They're just playing the odds. Here's a hint, though. If you're genuinely beautiful, find a way to stand out from the other beautiful people. I rarely, if ever, approach beautiful girls at bars, but if I saw a beautiful woman in the science section of the book store, I'd almost certainly approach her. (In other words, if you want people to know you're not a dumb blonde, prove it.)

  • susanawalsh

    Haha, Hamby, I knew you'd weigh in, and I had a pretty good idea what you'd say! (I'm just about ready to start finishing your sentences for you.) I'm really glad you said it. What I really like about your perspective is that you set the conundrum up as a problem to be solved. Which is exactly what it is. You point out the need for a specific strategy, and I love it! And the thing is, most beautiful women don't want to be hit on in bars, because those are the guys who will probably send a disgusting text at closing time. But to be approached in the science section of a bookstore? How romantic! (It's also in keeping with my recent post “How to Find a Great Guy”, which says pursue your interests first, and get out as much as you can doing so.)

    I also appreciate getting the male point of view. For example, I never thought of this:

    “Men, being slightly smarter than portrayed on sit-coms, realize that keeping beautiful women (especially in the hook-up culture) is very, very difficult, and many of them automatically put beautiful women in the hookup-only category.”

    Specifically, I hadn't thought about hookup culture making women more difficult to hang onto from a guy's point of view, but it makes total sense.

    So thanks.

    • Michael

      But to be approached in the science section of a bookstore?

      The science section of the bookstore is not exactly conducive to conversation.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        It can be. Random encounters are the fourth most common way that dating couples meet. Approaching women during the day in a place where you may have common interests is good strategy.

        • Michael

          It can be. Random encounters are the fourth most common way that dating couples meet. Approaching women during the day in a place where you may have common interests is good strategy.

          Would it be a good idea for me to loiter in a particular section in a bookstore, from open until close, until I find someone I might possibly like?

          And it is fairly obvious that loitering in a grocery store just to meet girls is not a good idea.
          .-= Michael´s last blog ..Michael is now friends with eldorado Restaurant lounge =-.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          NO! Loitering around hoping women will come in is creepy. Just live your life and pursue your interests. Be open and friendly. Say hello, offer to help, etc.

  • bblove

    Oh my god Susan, I'm just scrolling through and I almost didn't recognize myself. Ha! I'm so flattered. Thanks for the shout out, as always. I'll be blogging about this later … have a lot to say on this topic.

  • susanawalsh

    bblove, I would LOVE to hear your views on this topic. When I found this pic on your blog I knew I had to use it. Your appearance vs. your sharing in the universal struggles was just too mind-blowing to ignore. BTW, today's post touches on this theme as well. Maybe you're too perfect!

  • Dashiell

    Terrible advice:

    What’s a gorgeous girl to do?

    •Bide your time, your day will come.

    Congratulations, you've hit menopause and will never be a mother.

    •Do not allow yourself to be objectified and used as an opportunity for some player to boast about having nailed you.

    Femenists are the worst. If you get the feeling the guy is trying to play you, reject him. If you don't get that impression, don't invite it.

    •Focus on friendships first. A guy who cares for you as a friend is less likely to use you, and more likely to develop real feelings.

    Push a guy who's attracted to you into the friendzone, he'll hate you for life.

    •Be approachable, so that nice guys consider taking a chance. When you like a guy, find ways to let him know that he has a shot.

    Approachable gorgeous girl? -> Saved for Christ, or STDs.

    Here's real advice: When you're in a sexually charged social environment (bar, party, club), be above it all. Have fun being with you're friends, talking to people, joking around. Don't try to fit in with the bright-eyed prey. If you do, there MUST be something wrong with you.
    Instead, be open minded to finding a love interest in situations and places where sex doesn't take precedent (grocery store, chamber of commerce event, blockbuster, DMV). If you act conducive to romance when a guy isn't anticipating it, he is more likely to search for a justification of chemistry than reducing you to game.

    • Michael

      Instead, be open minded to finding a love interest in situations and places where sex doesn’t take precedent (grocery store, chamber of commerce event, blockbuster, DMV).

      Grocery store again ?

      Since when do people meet in grocery stores? Or Blockbusters? Or DMV’s?

      Do you really think it is a good idea for me to loiter around a grocery store, Blockbuster, or DMV from opening to close just to meet someone whom I would want as a girlfriend?

      Where do people get these ideas?

  • susanawalsh

    Hey Dashiell, thanks for commenting. We always appreciate getting the Y chromosome view around here. You make some excellent points, I do have replies:

    1. By saying bide your time, I really wasn't thinking years. What I'm saying is that you are going to draw lots of douchebags, and if you are in a hurry to find someone, you are likely to engage in wishful thinking and waste time on an unworthy guy. It can be very, very difficult to tell a good guy from a jerk early on. Jerks have a way of being really attentive and sweet until they score the touchdown (doesn't apply to PUA types, obvs.) So what I mean here is take a deep breath, dial down the anxiety, and let things proceed naturally. But your point is well taken. Women wait too long all the time, and then fertility becomes a major problem. We were designed to procreate by the age of 13, so delaying a full 25 years is very risky.

    2. First of all, using the word objectify doesn't signal my political leanings. And as I stated above, women are not very good at getting the feeling a guy is trying to play them. If they were, it wouldn't happen so much. How does one invite a guy to play them? How does one prevent it, or “not invite it?”

    3. I'm not suggesting pushing a guy into the friend zone. What I have seen work very well is a situation where the girl is super hot, the guy not as hot. He doesn't make a move, b/c he knows he is not in her league. But he is happy to be part of her circle, her crowd. As she gets to know him, if she likes him (because women select men on a variety of qualities, not just looks) she can signal her interest. The second he thinks he has a reasonable shot he takes it. He can't believe his good fortune. She must work to convince him she really likes him. The end.

    4. Re being approachable, see above. You're wrong about beautiful women not being approachable. Guys think that women will only go for a less hot guy if he has money or status. Not true. I've seen girls get really into guys without either, because they looked for and found other qualities in him. Like humor, self-confidence, kindness, intelligence, creativity, loyalty in relationships. Guys don't want to believe this. They think the Beta has no shot. Wrong. Game won't get you anything real. Being real will get you something real. By the way, because casual sex is so readily available, most guys with options are more reluctant to commit. This scarcity of relationship opportunities means that women (even beautiful women) will have to cast their nets wider. Hence the increasingly popular term: Boyfriends are ugly.

    Your real advice is right on. I've written about the best way to meet new people (see How to Find a Great Guy) – it's to pursue your own interests, get out of the house as much as possible, maximizing your number of interactions per day. And take that cell phone off your ear. We're on the same page there.

  • Dashiell aka The "Y"

    Hey Susana,

    I really appreciate your response to my post. I apologize if it had been a little crass. I didn't take time to read more than this article before posting my response to those four points of advice.

    To touch on your first response, with regard to waiting, I find it very interesting that you acknowledge the biochemical preconfiguration of women (girls) to be hormonally and reproductively active mid-puberty. This could be the subject of a very interesting article, as I forsee the politicization of 'age of consent' and 'gap between childhood and adulthood' culminating in a pervasive societal dialogue, drawing upon human biology, the history of marital conventions, zoology of human-like species, agency of young adults, and of course countered with just as many arguments and evidence points around nuclear family politics, socio-religious conceptions of decency, the notion of proper edification and child rearing. Unfortunately I imagine that things will get worse before they get better, with horrendous stories of perverse injustices, and the draconic punishment of benign transgressions. Where the chips will fall is anyone's guess.

    And to your second point. This one had me excited to reply.
    One invites getting played by presenting a fear of getting played with helpless or futile gestures of chagrin.
    Let's say a guy talking to a lady, in a sex environment (bar), just picked up on an indication that this lady thinks he's hilarious. This guy is now confident that this lady will giggle through the entire telling of his favorite recollection; he's in the driver's seat, she's on board: he's psyched. Figuring that attraction is not an obstacle at this point (either they are both attracted to one another or have qualities of the nature you mention in paragraph 4), his main focus at this moment is to stroke his ego by eliciting forth her adorable smile (doesn't matter if she's hot or not, we adore making the ladies smile) and he likely has the intention of taking this conversation, evening, night, weekend, relationship, as far as she's willing to go.
    Here's where she screws up.
    Realizing that she is smitten with this gentleman, the fear of being mistreated or cast aside in favor of the next better thing sets in. Her chin draws in, her gaze down. When he leans in for a kiss, she meekly inquires 'are you just going to use me'?
    He is now.
    She has just offered herself as available to be used. She has let him know that if his answer to that question is 'of course not, babe' that he can have his way with her any way he likes and then be done with her when he so chooses. And of course the guilt is already diminished because she was the one who set up the expectation of getting used. Furthermore, she has just blown his buzz, having gone from engaging, curious, suspenseful, passionate chemistry to: 'make me a promise of intention for commitment and I'll fold my hand and give you my chips'. BAD.

    Alternative ways she should have handled this:
    Play him. Ask nothing about him that he doesn't offer to share about himself. Express more interest in filling your drink than any idle conversation. Be the one to guide the night to its final destination (if that is your desire) or be the one to call the night over when and where you say so.
    Nothing is going to make that guy more attracted to you than the impression that you were out to use him. One, it indicates that you are somehow interested or attracted to him. You don't even have to let him have a kiss, so long as you acknowledge that he was your consort for the evening. Two, it shows that you can take charge of your own romantic destiny, that you value your time, importance, goals (This also indicates that you don't have a history of being trampled by assholes. Guys HATE getting that impression, and will usually either bail or take up the role of asshole and put you through the shredder once again.) And three, 'she doesn't want some kind of commitment?' is a great quandary to leave him with. You're probably wondering 'won't he think I'm a slut?', and the answer is no. He'll be trying to tell himself 'alright, a lady with no strings!', but what he'll really be dwelling over is, 'why doesn't she want to make something real of this? what am I going to have to do to make her want me? how am I going to be able to prove that we're compatable for the long term?' Now you've got a guy that's going to work for you. Does that mean you're in the clear? no. Does this work 10 out of 10 times? no, especially if you're really having to act to pull it off.

    Now, if you're the kind of gal that refuses to kiss a guy until he's made an oath of fealty, there are ways of doing so without setting yourself up for disaster.
    Firstly, if you are this type of girl, then you're probably a cock-blocker to guys doting on your friends, and an all-round buzzkill for most things exuberant. But this isn't necessarily the case. In fact, on the other hand, this attitude/behavior should prevent you from being considered a tease (I say 'should' – this behavior doesn't give license to lead guys on) and should establish you as a person to be taken seriously.
    It is paramount that you do achieve being taken seriously, as many men will read this prude behavior as mindless enslavement to convention. There are three vehicles of communication that will command a man to take you seriously in this scenario: 1) be blunt (not brusque, but like a cowboy over a spitoon: you're on your time, no one is rushing you, you have your questions, and you're unabashed about expecting answers) 2) be impassioned (fiery, not lugubrious: 'I will cut your balls off' – guys love to hear the ladies threaten violence) or 3) be humorous, which is perhaps the best way to be taken seriously in all walks of life, and in this case it more easily allows for the poise necessary for the first two options to work.

    She, “Promise me you'll never cheat on me with your secretary.”
    He, shocked, and confused, “What!?”
    She, “I'm serious, no necking, no spanking. Nothing.”
    He, “I don't even have a secretary.”
    She, “Someday you will.”
    He, “Well, yeah, I suppose I might somehow. Ok, fine.”
    She, “Promise me.”
    He, “Alright, I promise. I'll never cheat on you. I don't know why you'd think I'd be the kind of guy-“
    She, “You had better not. I swear I'll cut your fucking balls off.”

    And there we are, a romance is born. And believe it or not, this could be a first encounter exchange. And if you think her phrasing this joke having set up the expectation that they were likely to spend their lives married together would send him running, you're wrong. It hints at a confirmation that she takes him seriously as a candidate for the long term (or that he would have to be for a chance at getting anywhere, and many of us are happy to play by those rules), but it can also be taken as an anecdotal setup for a joke that clearly seeks to be taken seriously as a 'you had better not screw around' statement, and in no way suggests that she expects to rush in to marriage. (PS – if you try using this dialogue and the guy accuses you of wanting to marry him, take it and run with it; doesn't matter which direction, but if you don't have something funny or pithy to follow up with, the situation could turn around on you pretty quickly).
    The point and purpose of this exchange is that the next time cheating pops into Guy's head, and inevitably it will (whether he has any intention of committing the act or not, it is a thing that occurs to people) this exchange, and her subsequent threat, will quickly come to mind, and it will occur to him that She is a cognizant, participating party in this bond, and hopefully – my thought – he will think to respect her, for her agency, her humor, her contribution, and her threat of cutting off his balls.

    Bottom line, do not plead, that is asking to get trampled. And a direct demand is only a step up if he thinks you're intelligent (humor = direct + intelligent). My advice would be to avoid the expectation of adultery entirely, and if you must address it, use one of the three vehicles mentioned above.

    3. I'm sorry, but I disagree. I have heard enough women tell me that they 'know whether or not [they] would ever want to sleep with a guy in the first thirty seconds' that there must be some validity to it. And I believe this truth contributes a lot to the etiquette of introduction and is one of the underlying purposes of immediate displays of wealth and refinement (poise and rolex), but that is another topic.
    Ladies are welcome to play hard to get. However, indicating a desire to cultivate a friendship is a grave insult to man that wants to make you his. Plenty of men are spineless enough to endure this charade, but Hollywood has made this form of relationship appear a lot more passionate, inspiring, and hopeful than it really is.
    The hypothetical that you provide… I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but honestly, I can't. A guy that 'can't believe his luck' being able to retain the attraction of some super-hot lady – who is 'league' hot, which is a very different thing from super-hot on its own, as 'league' hot would indicate that she, he and others are aware of the value of her hottness – simply doesn't make sense. For, if she is one to recognize the value of her attractiveness, then an enduring attraction to man who lacks confidence in himself, requiring that she PROVE she really likes him, is hard to fathom. I mean, is this guy some sculptor working for an NGO who happened to find the cure to this lady's mother's degenerative disease? Even if that were the case, where is his confidence then? Why can't this guy at least trust in the chemistry between them? This story ends with her getting snatched up by a proper alpha capable of communicating that her affection is appreciated and reciprocated without giving way to weakness.

    4. They 'LOOKED FOR and found better qualities in him'? Well, I think I've made it obvious that I am no fan of idealism, and the notion that anyone seeks out qualities in others to be attracted to is certainly idealistic. However, I do subscribe to the notion that women can be moved by qualities that are not physical-attraction-oriented. After all, aesthetic appeal is not our strongest suit on the overall. Nonetheless, advocating that men 'be real' is a cop out. Being 'real' can mean different things at any given moment. Most men have a conception of what it means to be charming, and most men will try. Unfortunately, often times you will see a failed attempt at charm mercurially descend into bitter invectives, as many men do not take well to rejection, and that IS being real, and it is very unattractive.
    As for your allegedly popular term 'boyfriends are ugly', propagating such an outlook would be terribly corrosive to womankind's self-esteem, which in turn would lead to more 'readily available casual sex' and, of course, even more reluctant men. “I don't want to be ugly.”

    I look forward to reading more of you work. Thank you once again for your reply.

  • susanawalsh

    Dashiell, that is awesome! There is so much good stuff here, I'm gonna tell you right now that I'm going to rip it off and use it. Love, love, love the male point of view. Your advice on how not to get played is priceless. My only objection, and it is a big one, is that these techniques are so artificial, so contrived. As a marketing person, I'm willing to acknowledge the effectiveness of the message, but honestly, can't we ever just let our hair down and relate to each other? I'm a big proponent of strategy, but I'm exhausted just reading your recommendations, valid though they seem.

    Re #3, it's true that there are some men that have it made sexually within 30 seconds. But the nature of woman is such that her attraction can grow as she becomes acquainted with a man and sizes him up. Because we are not utterly beholden to the good looks piece, we often get the hots for a man as we get to know him better and discover other qualities in him. I am 100% sure about this. I have seen this happen many, many times. The message to men is: you may know you want to bang someone right away. She may not be sure. You need to invest time to relate to her on an emotional level – that is where her sexual desire will come from.

    Finally, I'm not suggesting that “Boyfriends are ugly” become the new slogan of young women everywhere. It's just something I've heard from young women, and guess what? They're willing to consider it! Honestly, women may be biologically programmed to want Alpha, but we are very torn. Betas can be such good boyfriends, and that's what we want more than anything else.

    You may be interested in my new post, which explains how the Pill is tilting women increasingly toward choosing Beta. Interesting research.

    Dashiell, I know well how time consuming it is to leave a thoughtful and lengthy replay. I appreciate your effort, thoughtfulness and articulate explanations a great deal. As a woman, I NEED to know what men are thinking in order to give any advice that's worth a damn. I need both sides of the story. So thank you.

  • Nicole

    I get so many vulgar comments/requests from men.. I started to think it was because I looked like an easy lay. The nicest guy I've ever dated was one I met when I was over weight for a little while. Recently, I lost more weight and have gotten much more male attention.. even was stopped on the street a few times. Yet, the men always end up asking me for 'pictures' or talk about how they want to take me from behind or whatever. It's perplexing. I can totally empathize with this article. Also, it's not necessarily easier, especially as an attractive woman, to get better jobs or promotions. It's assumed that I'm probably not very intelligent or not taken seriously for some reason.

  • susanawalsh

    Nicole, thanks so much for leaving a comment. From reading this post and the comments, you know that you aren't alone. One thing that happens, I think, is that when a guy encounters a girl who he knows is way out of his league, he has nothing to lose by being rude to her. He knows he can't attract her with conventional lines, so he goes for broke. I can't imagine it ever works, but who knows.

    It's interesting to hear you bring up the issue of weight. I have heard from women before who feel uncomfortable with a lot of overt male attention as they just walk around, etc. Putting on weight, dressing down, and so on is one way of giving really pretty women some anonymity.

    You also make an interesting point about the workplace. Beautiful women are much more likely to be harrassed or objectified. If you look like Madeleine Albright, for example, you can go about your work without sexual tension getting in the way.

  • susanawalsh

    Nicole, thanks so much for leaving a comment. From reading this post and the comments, you know that you aren't alone. One thing that happens, I think, is that when a guy encounters a girl who he knows is way out of his league, he has nothing to lose by being rude to her. He knows he can't attract her with conventional lines, so he goes for broke. I can't imagine it ever works, but who knows.

    It's interesting to hear you bring up the issue of weight. I have heard from women before who feel uncomfortable with a lot of overt male attention as they just walk around, etc. Putting on weight, dressing down, and so on is one way of giving really pretty women some anonymity.

    You also make an interesting point about the workplace. Beautiful women are much more likely to be harrassed or objectified. If you look like Madeleine Albright, for example, you can go about your work without sexual tension getting in the way.

  • lisamg

    Yes Pretty girls IMO have it harder. All my life I've been told how beautiful I was, smart and funny. I'm 27 years old and I am still single. I honestly don't know what guys want. I'm attractive, smart and well educated and I am not a conceited bitch. I just don't know!

    • chique

      that is so true! im in the same predicament as you darling!

  • susanawalsh

    Hi lisamg, thanks for leaving a comment. As you can tell from my site, and the other comments, you are not alone. For beautiful women, I think being perceived as approachable and attainable is key. But it's important to focus on the right guys. You know exactly how to identify a player, and you should avoid him at all costs. There are lots of great men out there who want love and a real relationship. But you are never going to find one in a bar trying to hit on women. You've got to figure out a way to get out there and interact with more people overall, and different kinds of men specifically. Too many women waste their youth and beauty on douchebags!

  • susanawalsh

    Ugh! That text! Look, men have always been interested in sex and always will be. That's fine. But I hate it that they show so little respect for women, objectifying them in this way. So many women get a lot of the wrong kind of attention from men. No woman wants to walk down the street and be ogled by strangers.

    The really awful thing is, these tactics must work at least some of the time. This guy must find that he gets a lot of sexy texts back when he says that kind of thing. Women need to demand more respect, and punish guys who don't offer it.

  • Sam

    The thing is that text is inappropriate – because his attentions are unwelcome. If they were welcome then it would be a bold flirting gambit to which you might respond differently. The problem is, whether he should or not, he doesn't know if they're unwelcome or not.

    Yes he should have left such texting until it's appropriate to your relationship, but maybe he figures it's a short cut to finding out if he has a chance. It's also possible he likes you, but is rather clueless about interpreting people/women, so has somehow got the idea you would welcome such attention. I guess he's no longer under that misapprehension.

    I should make clear his style is very different from mine, but if you want to understand what's going on it's helpful to focus less on your own reaction to him (which as I pointed out might have been different had he been more attractive to you) and more on what he may have been trying to achieve. I doubt that being disrespectful was his intention. I also don't think this necessarily 'comes back to sex' despite its obvious sexual overtones. He doesn't sounds like the most clue-in guy about approaching women. He probably had a few drinks and completely overplayed what sounds like an already poor hand.

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/susanawalsh susanawalsh

      Hey, Sam, just want to say welcome to HUS! There are a lot of great discussions happening on various posts about relationships and dating, so have a look around. Thanks for commenting.

    • verie44

      This actually isn’t true. I actually have (had?) a crush on him — I think he’s really an all-around amazing person. His approach totally sucked, but if he were to ask me out I would definitely say yes. He also knows girls well enough to know what kind of interaction works, I know this for a fact. The fact that he chose that one to use on me is disheartening, that’s all I’m saying.

  • Steve

    This is a really interesting topic and I have oft thought of the various issues attractive women have to deal with-and its enlightening to hear some stories.
    However I must just get one thing straight in my mind – I dont think in any way attractive women have it worse than more moderate or less attractive women. I just think that they have a different set of problems. Given the multitude of benefits available to attractive women I cant help but feel a little sardonic about the idea of beautiful women exclaiming about how hard they have it…and a less attractive woman often leads a very testing life ending up working hard and give her energy selflessly to strive for self-worth….

    Im sorry if that sound cynical but I have to vocalise it…

    Ok now I have stated that – I do sympathise with the grossness that women have to put up with. I was walking home with a friend from work the other day who is a gorgeous and lovely blonde – and some motorist came past us and turned right and as he did it he shouted ‘I’ll have sex with you tonight’. I have to say I was flattered but guys arent really my thing-and the car he was dri….

    Seriously tho she was perplexed and I honestly didnt know what to say about it – to check if she was upset…It must be pretty unpleasant to be objectified like that by some random beast.
    I think it comes down to what type of person you are and how you learn to deal with your looks. If you are sensitive person – you might be upset by the rampant attention. I totally sympathise with that – as it might often be a bit too much what with the way guys are sometimes. Ive recently put on a bit of weight due to a health problem – but previously I have had been regarded as very handsome. There have been times when Ive put on one of my extremely sharp tailored suits to go out in and I walked into a place and felt a strong sense of people staring at me – and got a lot of attention. Although I like to look good – being quite sensitive and if I felt low that day – I actually didnt always like that extra attention – it felt a bit much. The thing is this adoration has not been earnt.
    On those occasions I remember thinking to myself ‘this is what women must have to deal with ALL THE TIME-being stared at whilst having no idea about who they are inside’…that must be difficult.
    If you are not sensitive you might be narcissistic then good looks might become a power issue and something that leads you to be manipulative…or maybe you can learn that good looks are just one level of who you are and associate with others who have a strong sense of self and feel the same?
    Anyways just comments – Im learning a lot from this blog thanks Susan and others for the discussion. Particularly enjoyed your extended monologue Dashiell. Sadly Im not so lucid or eloquent today…but I guess….at least I got to say lucid and eloquent in a last gasp attempt at proving my articulacy in a slightly absurd way-trying to be funny. And a little sleep deprived. Bye!x

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com susanawalsh

      Hi Steve,

      I hear you – and I think you’re right that beautiful women just have a different set of problems. One of the reasons I wrote this article is that so often women feel that if only they were as hot as “so and so” they’d have it made. Also, it depends on what a person wants. There are probably many beautiful women who love getting free stuff and lots of attention from random strangers. However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.

      I think you make an excellent point about earning admiration. A beautiful woman may get a lot of guys chasing her, but she will often feel that they don’t see the real her. Her looks get in the way. And as you say, gratuitous sexual attention is offensive.

      I will agree that narcissists are often good looking, and I’m not sure which comes first. Are they people who have lazily learned to rely on their looks to get them ahead? Or are they narcissists who can be especially toxic due to their good looks?

      • Michael

        There are probably many beautiful women who love getting free stuff and lots of attention from random strangers. However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.

        This might seem like a radical idea, but maybe those women, who do not want to initiate being approached by players, should approach men to whom they are attracted.
        .-= Michael´s last blog ..Michael is now friends with eldorado Restaurant lounge =-.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Yes, I encourage this. A good start is a smile and three seconds of eye contact, which is the threshold for attraction.

      • Steve

        “One of the reasons I wrote this article is that so often women feel that if only they were as hot as “so and so” they’d have it made.”

        Very fair point – yes I hear this sentiment a lot if indirectly…actually that made it a lot clearer!

        “However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.”

        This makes a lot of sense – and it must over time become a point of disillusionment…probably at first it is exciting while younger…

        Yeah – men and women’s value is in so much more that their image and appearance. The subject of narcissism is an interest of mine and I recently read a very revealing book on the subject. Many people view narcissism as someone who loves themselves. However narcissists dont and cannot love themselves or others. They are obsessed with creating a fixed mask to hide emotional numbness. They cannot accept their true authentic ‘self’. They seek power (in their image) to dominate from a deep fear of being humiliated. Its something thats thought to be caused by some emotional trauma in childhood…the source of which is outside the scope of this post…

        But there is a wider concept of narcissism in our society now days that did not used to exist to such an extent. The image – how we look and display ourself – is of huge importance in our society. This is my opinion is out of balance. Core values of dignity, respect and authenticity in our society take second place now to appearance and power. Previously in cultures an individual would gain high status from having a dignified and wise character. However now we have the age of celebrity where people will do anything to gain power through fame – they are prepared to trash their dignity in order to get it.
        How does this relate to female issues? Well its understood by some that looks count for females – more so than males. I propose then a narcissistic society will only take this (proposed) evolutionary norm and drive it out of balance. And so no wonder beautiful women feel disillusioned by men who are not interested in their true ‘self’ – their character and who they are on a deeper level.
        Im still developing my thoughts on this so please excuse me if something doesnt quite sound right or some of my generalisations are clumsy….but the more I understand the more I see the lack of value of the feminine nature that exists in our western society. As opposed to the surface image-to which huge value is attributed. No wonder beautiful women feel angry-its like they are being put on a pedestal for only one fraction of their potential. So rarely do I ever hear of anyone praising how nurturing, caring, loving a girl is. And at worst if someone is very caring they can even be manipulated or used-rather than adored and praised for this trait. All billboards ever display is physical beauty. I never read an advert that says ‘She blooms life, she pours love and nurture into her children to create positivity, The foundation of life is built on her love – the glue that holds the family unit together…’.
        Maybe thats just not sexy enough and sex sells – our society is obsessed with a sort of immature form of sex – rather than a true representation of what sex is. Narcissistic also I guess.
        Just like us humans are not living in balance with the earth at the mo (destroying it and trying to control it), I also believe our society is completely out of touch with the importance of the feminine nature. Its kind of shameful when I think about it…of course there are worse examples (Sharia law etc) – but still – its something that often people dont realise how important it is perhaps because we are now so bombarded by image all the time rather than taught the issues of real value in life.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Steve, I agree completely. Does the book you read go into this more contemporary view of narcissism? I’m quite interested in this topic. Actually, I just put up a post that addresses what you’re talking about here. It’s not really my usual fare – we’ll see how it goes over.

  • Lily

    Honestly it sounds so conceited to agree with this but even last night I had numerous uncomfortable situations related to this topic (people think I’m conventionally beautiful)… I went to town with my mixed group of friends to play pool, I was just wearing jeans, ballet shoes and a peacoat, and I still got drunk guys saying the rudest things to me. I also got called a snobby bitch twice by different guys after I didn’t respond to their passing comments (even though I smiled politely). Wow. Then on the drive home my flatmate asked me again why I don’t have a boyfriend and told me I was really weird because of it (he had been constantly hitting on me lately which makes my life so uncomfortable). Lastly I talked to a guy I met recently and have hungout with a few times and talk to a lot online… super funny, smart, good looking.. which I thought was finally a good sign and that he liked me or whatever… then he proceeded to tell me that he was ‘pleasantly suprised at how pleasant I was’ after getting to know me. I questioned this, to which he pretty much stated he expected me to be dumb because I look like a shallow and fashionable person, and that he was suprised that I love to read and know about things he doesn’t. Like Kierkegaard. Or Lutherism. Um, is that a compliment? I look like a dumb snobby bitch… thanks. By this stage I wanted to cry myself to sleep. Ha. Also last night found out my incredibly beautiful best friend from high school ( like Megan Fox, Angelina Jolie beautiful!) is on heavy medication and suicide watch because she tried to kill herself 2 weeks ago. So please don’t think people who are ‘good looking’ have life easy because no one does. P.S. I’m only 20 so sorry if this reads like a ramble in Cosmopolitan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Lily, thanks for leaving a comment. I wrote this post because I have heard a lot of stories like this from really attractive women. So often people believe that if only they were better looking they’d have it made and be happy. Of course, it doesn’t work that way. We all have our problems. I’m sorry your friend is so troubled- I hope she will get help and get better.

  • Miranda

    This is a great post! There’s no way of saying this without seeming full of myself, so I’ll just say it: I’m a noticeably attractive woman. By that I mean that I get a lot of compliments from strangers daily, I get stared at a lot, and occasionally I’ll get something free.

    But, I wasn’t always this way; I used to be 80 lbs heavier and I was virtually invisible to most men. The attention and perks are all VERY new to me (it started in January when I moved to the most shallow city in existence- LA) so I know how it is to be on both sides of the tracks. Life really is… different for pretty people. I’ve watched the difference in my own life, and those changes are both good and bad.

    While people are much nicer and trusting towards me, I really do feel like a lot of the new friends I have only like me because I’m pretty. And I’m certain that I only got my newest job as a hostess at a restaurant because of my looks. While at work I get a lot of unwelcome comments from male customers, and older men seem to think that it’s perfectly fine to touch me without my permission. And like Lily, if I reject a guys advances I’m immediately called “snobby” or a b*tch.

    Also, lately I’ve felt like a lot of guys I date think of me as some sort of accomplishment. Like, they’ll immediately take me around their friends and I can’t help but think it’s because they want to show me off. And on top of this, I think that a lot of guys with good intensions are afraid to approach me or show interest in me for fear of rejection, so I have to make it painfully obvious that I like a guy before he’ll initiate something with me.

    Don’t get me wrong, overall I’m loving this newfound attention and popularity, but this article is very true. It doesn’t bother me too much though, I feel like because I attract more guys, I’m more likely to eventually meet a really good one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Miranda, that’s fabulous, congratulations! Of course you are enjoying the admiration of men! It’s very interesting that you’ve experienced it both ways and can be objective about the difference in the way you’re perceived now that you are thin.

      I agree completely that by attracting many guys, your odds of meeting a good man are high. It’s good that you recognize the need to signal your interest, so that a man who isn’t cocky or a player will still feel confident approaching you.

      I wish you all the best!

      • Poly Desi

        Miranda, you had a boyfriend take you around to meet your friends because he wanted to “show you off”, I’ve had the opposite! I was involved with a man who, while everyone else said I was beautiful, was ashamed of me because I was not his usually “ethnic type”. It feels horrible to be thought of as “attractive” by everyone but the man who is supposed to “love” you.

  • Kurt

    I joined a new gym a couple years ago and there was girl who was good looking and I think she was a little taller than me. I saw her running on the treadmill and noticed her but never assumed that she would be interested because I had always assumed that tall girls wanted tall guys. Well a week later I was stretching in a small stretching area near the treadmills and I sat down next to her because it was crowded there was no where else to sit and stretch that day. I looked over to see the people running and I saw that she was staring right at me. I looked away and then back and she was still staring at me. I was in total shock and I couldn’t even talk. I was embarrassed about that, and I did eventually manage to talk to her, although I thought I had blown my chance by the time I spoke with her. (If the same thing were to happen to me today, two years later, I think I handle it much better.)

    So I think that pretty women do have it harder because sometimes even if they do give guys eye contact, the guys don’t know always what it means anyway.

  • Bob

    “I personally know at least a dozen young women who are the whole package: Lovely to look at, smart, curious, funny, interesting, generous. And they’re all unattached.”

    Oh really? Prove it. Personally Susan, I call BS on your claim. Experience and the school of hard knocks lead me to my conclusions.

  • A.M.

    Thanks for this article! I know I get damn offended when people assume that I have it all laid out for me because I’m pretty, intelligent and well-groomed, because in my experience it just isn’t true. When I was a plain, dorky teenager with frizzy dishwater hair boys would talk to me; as soon as I grew out of my awkwardness, being a late bloomer, they just completely dried up. On the other hand, all my less pretty friends have bagged wonderful men as long-term boyfriends.
    The only guys who approach me now are douchy let-me-buy-you-a-drink-and-spike-it types who make it absolutely plain that they’re only after bragging rights. If I reject them coldly and so make myself look unattainable – ladies, would you feel good about knowing that the only men who don’t treat you like a pretty leper are only after descriptions of how you do in bed?

    Thankfully, nature’s given me options so I don’t have to settle for rubbish men. Thumbs up for that, Mother Nature – I appreciate it greatly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A.M., thanks for leaving a comment. I have a question – Mother Nature gave you options – but how do you connect with men if they’re intimidated by you?

  • Calvin

    Pretty girls get everything given to them. So yes, they do have it easier.

  • karen

    I agree with everything the writer says. I’ve always been an introvert who was more interested in politics and current events than the latest reality show. As a teenager and college student I had bad hair, bad acne, didn’t wear makeup, and was totally ignored by guys. I distinctly remember being introduced to one particular guy 3 times in a one month period in college and he never remembered me. I was invisible to the opposite sex. I’m in my late 20’s now and my appearance has definitely changed for the better. I can walk into a room and both men and women turn to stare at me. I’ve been allowed to enter clubs without having to wait in line. Yet, I’m still single. Guys stare at me but never approach me. They know my name even though I don’t know theirs. My current job leaves little opportunity for meeting single men. When other females find out I’m single, they are shocked because it is naturally expected that I have a current boyfriend. My female coworkers are surprised to learn that I spend my weekends by myself.

    I used to think that attractive women have it easier but I was wrong.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Karen, welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. If you want guys to feel comfortable approaching, you’re going to have to actively encourage them. Make eye contact (3 seconds is the threshold for attraction) and smile. Also, don’t rely on the bar/club scene. You’re going to have better luck in situations where you can get to know someone and make them feel like they have a shot. Since your work does not afford this opportunity, it means pursuing interests and friendships in other ways. I wrote a post about this:
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/05/15/hookinguprealities/57-ways-to-meet-the-love-of-your-life/

  • Julia M.

    Hi Susan,
    I’m a 20 year old college student and I really related to this article. There’s no way of saying this without sounding vain, so I’ll just say it – I’m attractive; I get frequent comments in the streets, have been approached for modeling, get hit on only by the meathead player-types, and people are always shocked to hear I don’t have a boyfriend. In fact, I’ve never had a boyfriend. I’ve never even been kissed. This is likely a consequence of my shyness going up. During high school I was completely absorbed in my studies and genuinely had not developed interest in boys yet. Now that I am interested in dating, I have no idea where to start. I am still very shy around boys because, as said before, I have literally zero experience. I don’t even have any good guy friends. When talking to a guy I’m interested in, I get very nervous and turn bright red. To avoid this, I tend to put up walls and avoid contact altogether. I know this only makes me seem standoffish and intimidating but am often too afraid to take the risk of opening up. I know that you’ve said pretty girls have to encourage men to make them more comfortable, but I have no clue how to do this. Do you have any suggestions on how to overcome shyness in this situation? I’m just fed-up with passing up guys I’ve been interested in simply because I don’t know how to indicate my interest without clamming up and feeling insecure. I’m not interested in the hookup culture and am just looking for an authentic connection with someone.
    Any advice would be very much appreciated!

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Hi Julia, welcome! If you’re shy you need to take it slow. Definitely stay away from the meatheads! I would try to meet people naturally around a common interest – both women and men. Try being a friend first – and if you like a guy, you can begin to let him know by giving him some special attention, perhaps touching his arm, smiling and making eye contact, etc. If you are very attractive, your odds of being liked back are going to be pretty high, so I would encourage you to go for it if you catch feelings for someone. Your biggest problem is likely to be all all of your guy friends want more, but hey, that’s just the price you pay for being hot…

  • karen

    Thanks for commenting but I’m also dealing with the fact that any guy that I’m remotely friendly to thinks that I am attracted to him.  When my looks changed for the better I became friends with one guy who actually approached me and talked to me.  I made it clear that I only wanted to be his friend. I also was not physically attracted to him at all. Fast forward two years later and he decides that it is time for us to be more than friends.  I say I still only want to be his friend and he never talks to me again.  He was so angry with me when I rejected his advances. Before my looks changed, guys only considered me as a friend, no matter how friendly I was was them or how much I blushed and stammered in the presence of a particular guy.  Now, if I even talk too long to a guy or even look in his general direction, a guy thinks that I am interested in him when I’m not.  I’m so used to being invisible that now it scares me to be the female who get the attention of most guys.  I don’t know what to do with it.

  • Nicky

    As a male I find your article skewed here’s why (from a guys perspective and social psychology):

    1. Being a player has nothing to do with looks. There is no relationship to womanizing and a guys looks (social psych lit mentions that a man’s looks has little correlation to how he dates, its the opposite for women.). Although attractive men are the rare breed that actually get ‘hit on’ by women. This is what people are missing.

    2. Attractive women do not have it harder in life. they have an easier time (work life friends) and can draw from a massive pool of eligible men. They can afford to be picky. The rare 10’s are often met with resentment jealousy and admiration by other women below her looks wise. Still this does not detract from her overall social value in life. This is the only major con an extremely attractive woman can have.

    3. Most women, any women, are objectified by men. It is a patriarchial leftover from our traditional culture. Thats why feminism arose.

    4. Hooking up is less advantageous for average women because they draw in less men and most of these men do not want commitment and if they did they would want the best looking woman they can get. Related to no. 2.

    5. Attractive women are single, but never miss out on dates. They can afford to be picky. Also related to no.2

    6. the male response is deceitful. Here’s why: average men do not ask out women straight away. They play the ‘friends’ card first. Its funny they end up in it too most often.

    7. Where does the attractive woman get all this wrong attention from? It cant be from attractive men because as part of the bell curve, like attractive women, they are rare. This wrong attention they’re getting comes from the average to low average dudes using deceitful techniques, and bad pickup lines.

    8. Your guyland post about hot guys banging the most chicks vs. the traditional hot guys settle with hot chicks makes no sense. It is a two way street that is enacted upon in the hookup culture. Women also engage in this behavior. This also has nothing to do with being attractive.

    9. Attractive women have it harder because they can be more picky. Attractive women draw from a lesser pool of extremely rare attractive men. Being an attractive woman has not correlation to sexual promiscuity (social psych). Being more attractive saves a woman from promiscuity actually.

    10. The girls in that sundance film are a far shot from being really attractive. They fall within the normal bell curve- 5’s to 7.5’s.

  • dream puppy

    Attractive women have it much harder when they start to believe their own hype. I touched upon this on Darlock’s blog. A lot of men will put pretty girls up on pedestals- its no wonder many start to think that they are head and shoulders above everyone else….and then they become too picky, rejecting perfectly good mates for Billionaire Tom Brady look a like who never comes.

    However, aside from the problems that arise from being willfull and choosy, it is better to be a pretty girl than an ugly girl. Life is easier. You have more choice of dates, and when problems arise you have a better chance of getting them solved.

    I was never a beauty queen, but am definitely above average. Recently, after driving my husband crazy for the 10,000th time I broke some mundane rule, he turned to me and said:

    The rules just don’t apply to you eh?

    I thought long and hard about it, and realized, that in many instances, they haven’t.
    1) I was allowed to drive home by a policeman after blowing over the alcohol limit
    2) I have been pulled over 4 times for bad driving and given a ticket only one of those times (and another officer at the court reduced it)
    3) I washed my passport before an international trip and got a new passport in 3 hours (it usually took 3 weeks)

    I don’t know if these are good things. They have made me a little spoiled and reckless, but I know they wont last forever. I don’t feel that conflicted about it though. I know I’ll miss it when its gone…..

  • Sabrina

    I was actually not going to watch this video. WOW ! But after watching this video, I realize now what is going on. I am sad sometimes when men stare at me. It is difficult for me to figure out what their thinking. It makes me nervous. Yes now I believe I have been used by men who bragged about it later. I feel like the girl in 1:50, but it’s difficult for me to bring my self to tears. I want to. I wish there was a way that a beautiful woman could avoid feeling ashamed or embarrassed. Such a real break through!! I needed this.

  • Cheryle

    Imagine every person on a bus looking up towards you and then staring all the way to your destination. Or image walking onto the train and every head on that train turns. Imagine just walking in the grocery store and having men and women stop what they are doing and just turn towards you as you walk by. I smile a sweet smile if anyone makes eye contact with me. I say “Hi” to some people who make eye contact (young, old, fat, slender, male, female, tall, short)and they look shocked that I said “Hi”. Like beautiful people are not supposed to be nice or something. I just do not get that thought process.

    I am told that I look like Uma Thurman, Cindy Crawford or Shania Twain at least seven times a week. I do not have as high of an opinion about my physical make up as others seem to. I do not keep track of the latest celebrity, the latest look, or the latest fashion. I wear tinted moisturizer, Burt’s Bees lip protector, put my hair in a french twist, wear Eddie Bauer crew necks, long pants, and basically think….Well, here I am , take it or leave it.
    I dress for comfort, not to entice or to create interest.

    I know that I contribute to society by working with children, volunteering my cooking skills at a homeless shelter, giving blood to the American Red Cross, and by donating high nutrient food items to our local food pantry. I know that I make a difference in other people’s lives so I just live day to day taking it all in stride.

    Let them stare — I am just human. If beautiful people would just not get involved with the hype that surrounds the myth of beauty, then life can be rather normal.

  • pretty lonely

    People seem to think I’m attractive. I’m 27, tall & slender, working on a masters degree. I have continuosly attracted guys who keep me around, we end up cultivating a great friendship & spend tons of time together, but I end up feeling stuck as the girlfriend instead of their partner, they never want to marry ME. They never buy me meaningful or sentimental gifts like I do (doesn’t have to be expensive to be meaningful). I am still keeping hope at age 27 that I will find a husband but am becoming worried.
    I have had to work hard to get where I am, pay for college on my own, support myself, I had a difficult childhood and worked hard to overcome that. I do volunteer work, I have lot’s of hobbies like playing guitar, writing music, making short films. I can hold my own in a conversation and enjoy topics like politics, film, music, cultural affairs, however, I am in no way overbearing and I am a generous listener. These discussions are always fun, not argumentative or competitive in nature.
    I am considering chopping off my hair to make myself less attractive, I wear very little makeup, I dress in higher quality age appropriate clothing that’s not revealing. I feel I need to start playing the field of men, because it would improve my chances of ever getting married at this point. Maybe if there’s competition I won’t be taken for granted. I’ve spent 4 years with two different men exclusively only to find out he’s not going to propose, that’s 8 years of my life! Since men are such flakes there’s no way I’m going to have kids. Based on men’s behavior I greatly fear becoming a struggling single mom for life. I am trying to find a great partner and marry him, that’s it, I don’t even care if we ever own a home, and I don’t even need a wedding, going to the courthouse is FINE. I have reasonable expectations, certainly lower expectations than my married friends. The most insulting thing is when people assume I’ve had everything handed to me on a silver platter, I don’t let that pass, and they certainly look shocked & apologetic when I set their little selves straight. Another “problem” is that I am also a “nice girl” and nice girls seem to finish last. People used to say I must have men lined up around the block, anything could be further from the truth and I am starting to feel bitter resentment that the girls who are self absorbed and demand constant attention are landing all the blokes. Books I’ve read seem to suggest that being myself is a bad thing, and that’s why I’m still single. Apparently in order to win a man’s respect I have to play the “game” and be very hard to obtain, a “challenge”. Lately to deal with the disappointment I have turned to buddhism and found some relief there. The only way to win it seems is to desire nothing. For me, my life is naturally driven by love, so there is a great void since I have no partner to share it with. I have lived alone and independently for years, however, it feels unnatural to live alone now and I long to share my life with a mate who has a deeper understanding of life. I guess it’s up to me to initiate things and be the one to pursue men since guys rarely approach me, (they just stare at me, check me out). As usual I have to do everything myself *irritated sigh The fairy tales should have the woman rescuing & sweeping prince charming off his feet, that seems more realistic for today’s “standards”. Ha! How jaded am I?

  • http://burlesquemama.wordpress.com violet streak

    great post!
    there is a darkside to everything. i am a curvy, wear alot of black have dark hair wear nerdy glasses, my younger sis is petite with a “nice” body. i have been witness to how men treat her, looks glances, or heard her tell me stories of older men in their late 30s at work. sexual inuendo ect.
    i use to think she had it so good, until i realized we both had it good and bad in different ways.

  • http://burlesquemama.wordpress.com violet streak

    also my beautiful sister doesnt know she is beautiful. i have realized many “beautiful women” dont know they are beautiful.
    i on the other hand think im gorgeous too bad the rest of the world doesn’t know it. ;)

  • Marc

    Pretty girls that say they are rarely approached don’t know the other side of the coin. Ask an average woman and a pretty woman how often they are approached in a month…you’ll see.

    Another issue not discussed here, which is very important; is leagues. Most younger people shoot out of their leagues for many years. Unfortunately, we don’t determine our own leagues, the public in general does. Water finds it’s own level, and the process can be painful.

    I am guilty of this also. I consider myself a solid 8 who pursues 9-10, while the 6-7-8’s pursue me. In time, I will capitulate, but only when I “am getting old”. I will date these women briefly, but always am looking for something better.

    With women, they many times waste their youth/beauty getting free stuff, dating tons of bad boys, taking free trips with old men, sleeping around, etc. They don’t even give any thought to offering their future husband their “good years”. Then, when they have “had their fun”, they look to offer their husband stretch marks, wrinkles, unhealthy hair, etc. THE GUY THEY COMMIT TO, THE ONE WHO WILL SUPPORT HER THE REST OF HER LIFE, DOESNT EVEN HAVE A MEMORY OF WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG AND HOT!!!! The club heads and players got the hot, young body…..the husband gets the high mileage one!

    As her looks fade into her thirties, her standards don’t. She still thinks she deserves the life she had ten years ago. That’s when the bitterness sinks in. Ladies, cash in your chips early, BEFORE the looks fade. Give your future husband your best years….you know he deserves it.

  • Kurt

    @Marc, this is kind of off-topic, although I do agree with you and am amazed when I see women in their late-30s struggling with dating even though they were probably above-average looking if not hot during their 20s. A lot of those women are bitter because they got used to bad boy-type douchers kissing their asses when they were younger and better looking, and now they have ridiculously high expectations despite having little to offer as they reach the end of their fertility. Of course, none of the guys they dating during their 20s wanted to marry them, as they were nothing other than a piece of easy ass.

    I don’t think that some attractive women in their 20s really realize how good they have things until their looks start rapidly fading. Dating is so much easier for women at that age than it is for men, but too many women waste their best years.

  • Jess

    Dear pretty lonely,
    Sorry to hear your story pretty lonely. You are are obviously ready for an LTR.
    I would suggest speed dating, just to get back into flirting.
    .
    Don’t be over keen though, it can appear needy and also be sure you really like him for him.
    Dont just stay with a guy cos you want to be married.

  • Jess

    To girls:
    If you don’t want to be checked out change the way you dress.
    If you have a half decent body and wear a shortish dress men will check you out.
    When I was younger, I had a baby face and slim body but by dressing casually I was almost invisible. When I put a mini skirt on men virtually salivated in public.
    So don’t underestimate the power of clothing.

  • Jess

    To Marc and Kurt
    Yuk to everything you said
    I wish I could erase your comments from every girl who ever reads those comments.
    .

    You do realize you are reducing everything down to youth and beauty?
    My best years are ahead of me.
    I am 40, have more wisdom, have a few tricks in the sack I never had at 20, and pobably have a better dress sense than when I was at college.
    True I have a few more lines and I’m proud of every one of them.
    I would certainly find a 30 yo mam more attractive this his 20 yo edition
    I think when you grow up a bit you may have a different perspective.
    .
    I would say to girls to enjoy life whilst you can.
    True one should always aim realistically but beauty is only skin deep.
    .
    Thev bitterness I see from girls is due to men cheating or being lied to.
    Plenty of women have fun young and settle later in life, just like a billion men before them.
    Please dimiss the comments of Marc and Kurt. Its not 1940.

  • terre

    On the contrary: girls, I would quite studiously ignore Jess’ comments. The pleasures of youth may be strong and intoxicating, but when the baby rabies kick in (and they do for every girl once she crosses the threshold) you’ll be in a world of hurt trying to find a suitable mate. Your fertility begins to drop at 25, and by Jess’ 40 it’s entirely vanquished. The choice is yours, but at least give it some measure of thought.

  • Jess

    I have my 2 kids so vanquishment be damned.
    Fertility really drops off at 38 according to the NHS.
    From 18 onwards there is a slight drop-off on the graph or increased risk of complication.
    So according to terries logic all 17 year old girls should try and get pregnant.
    .
    As it happens in terms of genetic disease, the mans age often is more critical. ( nhs info).
    This is because sperm is manufactured during the lifetime of the man whereas eggs are made in utero and then stored so the dna is always pristine.
    .
    If you marry young and then get divorced does that help girls?
    What if they marry young, to the wrong person and waste precious years?
    Isn’t it better to have fun, know what you want and make a good choice? A lasting choice?
    Where are these women that terre are speaking about?
    In my experience active women tend to get the guy. Just an observation across many countries. The women who are childless are that way irrespective of sexual freedoms. Again just an observation.

  • terre

    First of all, I’ve no idea where you got the NHS information that “fertility really drops off at 38″. That’s completely wrong. Women have 12% of the ovarian reserve they were born with by age 30, and 3% by age 40, by which point the rate of miscarriage will also be over 50%. Her fertility peaks at 26 and declines at 30. Down syndrome is also extremely common in babies born to mothers older than ~35.

    Secondly, the risk of a marriage ending in divorce steeply increases once a girl has at least one extramarital sexual partner. This is probably due to the effects of pair bonding. I’m not really advocating that girls marry at 17 or do anything bar whatever it is they want (why waste my breath?) but they should understand the consequences of their choices, and those are no longer in question.

  • Obsidian

    Jess,
    I have to ask: what is the point of you being here?

    My reason for asking is because, I’ve been reading your comments here in this venue for sometime now, and they seem incredibly defensive. Not that there’s anhything wrong with that per se, but it is interesting to see. It seems like your defending something, and I want to know what that something is.

    As to the current topic at hand…

    In terms of the USA, all the data as we have it, from sources such as the US Census etc, it clearly shows noted patterns. For one thing, when it comes to divorce, Men remarry at much higher rates than do Women, and this is especially true the older they get. Moreover, the former tends to marry much younger the second time around than the latter, if the latter remarries at all.

    Second, Women over 35 have a much harder time in the SMP than do Men of the same age. By the time tnhey both hit 40, the Men are having a much better time of it in aggregate, than are the Women; for all intents and purposes, and again I’m speaking in aggregate terms here, the Women begin to become invisible sexually, to the vast majority of Men. In general, and in the main, Men prefer younger to older Women, all things being equal. Yes, there are some exceptional Women out there who can continue to attract Men regardless as to their own age. You may indeed be one of them. But all it takes is a quick look around to confirm what I am saying in the main, is indeed true. Nor am I making a grand value judgment statement here. I don’t have a dog in the fight and it makes me no difference one way or another. I am simply just stating what by now be easily observable facts of life.

    Holla back

    O.

  • Jess

    Hi all,
    No I don’t mind you asking at all. I make regular comments on a number of blogs ranging from third world politics to feminism to Palestine.
    I used to be very political and a lapsed member of various pressure groups.
    .
    Blogging saves me from bending the ear of my partner I guess.
    I only engage in threads that interest me or I have personal experience of.
    .
    I guess therefore that my reasons for posting are similar to other posters but you would have to ask them to be sure.

  • Jess

    Terre
    I was perhaps sloppy with my terminology.
    If you don’t like the nhs as a suorce then you could go the baby centre web site.
    fertility does drop continuously from 18 to 50 but that just means it takes longer for a 35 yo to get pregnant than a 25 yr old.
    What is critical is the infertility graph and that spikes at……38!
    .
    There is also a corresponding spike with diseases but they are still relatively rare.
    Do remember many genetic issues come from the sperm anyway.

  • Josh

    Why is it “being approachable” is so far down the list on things for “hot girls” to do. Good guys are sick of being treated like crap because of stigmas.

  • Jess

    Instead of spike I should have said sudden increase.
    .
    Obsidian,
    I haven’t looked at the data myself but am happy to accept the trends you assert.
    The thing is there is always other factors at play.
    I guess a guy would prefer a girl of 25 to 35 but what if the older one was his sexual and spiritual soul mate?
    The trends you mention are not of identical humans so extrapolation is iffy.
    .
    My grandmother lived a life of servitude and sexual repression.
    I, lucky cow, lived an exciting fun life and have been blessed with 2 happy kids.

  • Jess

    Thus you will understand I would prefer any child of mine to enjoy the freedoms I had.
    And ‘marry before you are on the shelf’ is something my grandmother was told. Yuk.

  • Sharon Cox

    Jess,

    Stop it please! Grow up and face reality. All of us 40+ girls are less desireable, …and thats it! You love your wrinkles??? Shut up stUpid. You love being 40+ ???? Because I hate it. But, we had our chance with our youth, and we have passed the torch to the new, young beautiful girls. Support them, don’t hate on them. I am jealous….and happy for them.

  • filrabat

    To bring some additional motivation to push ourselves to change our SMP habits:

    A lot of these issues are due to the fact that we’ve only had a post-hunter-gatherer (i.e. post animal) way of living for roughly 10,000 years – which is not even an eyeblink in evolutionary terms (more accurately, 10,000 years is the initial nerve impulse that causes the eyeblink).

    Back in the days when all we had to do to survive was learn how to gather nuts and berries, and make spears, spearpoints, and traps to capture and kill game — it made perfect sense for teenagers to be mothers and fathers. This continued to be arguably true for western peoples well into the Middle Ages. BUT…with the increasing necessity of education and increasing skill demands as time goes on. Even worse, our instincts are more geared for short-term thinking – not long-term. Back in the pre-agricultural, animal-like, eras, what happened as a consequense of actions 10, 20, and 40 years down the road made little to no difference on our lives or the lives of our descendants. In a post-hunter-gather society, what we do CAN EASILY make a difference 10,20, and 40 yrs down the road…or even centuries (e.g., even today, America is still living with the consequenses of plantation slavery – namely stubborn, though declining, race relations issues). Likewise, a 16 year old in 13,000 bc, or even 3,000 bc getting pregnant by a bad boy probably didn’t affect her future life much or that of her famiily. However, in 2010 ad, and even for a few hundred years before, her (and the cad’s) choices DO have an impact on how their children will turn out, and on their long-term marriage prospects.

    Our day-to-day physical environment has changed. By consequense, the very way we make a living has changed. Also by consequense, the very ways we become prepared to be able to raise children has changed. But WE haven’t Our technological development is by far outrunning our psychosexual evolution. It may or may not be true that humans are made for long-term monogamy, but divorce usually hurts children profoundly, if not severely; or at least their relations with their parents and (potentially) future relationship partners.

    We just have to accept the fact that we’re now in an era where the game of sustainable-over-the-generations survival and procreation are played by entirely different rules. BUT…the one thing we humans are good at is figuring things out. That means anticipating what may happen in the far future and disciplining ourselves to achieve the best result. Unfortunately, 9 times out of 10, we use the phrase “human nature” to mean “our base animal instincts”. Therefore, to say that we can’t help ourselves in this regard is to imply we have no more capacity for choosing our own destiny than wild animals do. This is insulting ourselves, to say the least.

  • filrabat

    Correction:

    I meant to say “where the game of sustainable-over-the-generations survival and procreation operate by entirely different rules”.

    My apologies for the error.

  • Kurt

    Jess, I don’t doubt that you and other women typically find a man to more attractive at age 30 than you would have found the exact same man when he was at age 20.

    Men, on the other hand, place more emphasis on physical beauty than women do. You might know a “few tricks in the sack” at age 40 than you would have at age 20 yourself. However, most men don’t really care that much if their sexual partner is relatively inexperienced and actually most men would prefer to marry a somewhat sexually inexperienced women instead of a highly experienced woman.

    The vast majority of men think that women in their mid-20s are far more physically desirable than women who are closer to 40. I defy you to find one reputable survey contrary to this.

    A single man who is 40 years old might settle down with a 40 year old woman if that is the best woman he thinks he can get and who will be loyal to him. However, I honestly think that most single 40 year old men would prefer to settle down with a 30 year old woman or even younger if they thought that they could get one who would stay loyal.

  • Jess

    To filbabat,
    Great post. Well put and I concur. We should take responsibility for our actions and be mindful of consequences. Regardless of urges.
    .
    Kurt,
    My point was that in your earlier post you reduced a persons worth down to beauty and age. As you get older you might find your view changes.
    .
    In isolation yes a 25 yo women is hotter than a 40 yo generally speaking. But that does not mean to say women desperately have to spend their youthful fun years worrying about chastity of landing an acceptable hubby. You sound like a victorian uncle.
    You may know lots of childless unhappy 39 years women who had lots of partners in their youth and are now haggard and unwanted. Well if thats your observation I can’t argue with that.
    All I can say is that an attractive modern women in her late 30’s wants a relationship then she tends to succeed. They may have to join an agency or put on a nice frock but they get there in the end.
    .
    I’m trying to think of any of my college friends or colleagues without kids or partners. It’s not easy.
    I had few gay friends who never adopted.
    I knew one stunning friend who had severe mental issues. She was still single last time I heard.
    Some of my lesser conventianlly attractive friends took a while to settle but they got there.
    All of the sexually active girls did ok in that regard later in life. So don’t get the need for panic.

  • Kurt

    Jess, I am not in my 20s – I am 35 and I do prefer slightly younger women – they are better looking and are often nicer and far less jaded than women my own age. You are married, so you are out of the game now. However, when you were dating were you ever out on a date with someone with a sense of entitlement, and a bad and negative attitude? The women whom I have been out on dates who were like that were in their mid-30s and they were just awful. Maybe I am meeting women in the wrong places, but it seems as though many women in their mid-30s are like this.

    I am not saying that I wouldn’t marry a woman who was 35, but she would have to be an exception person. I want to start a family and want a woman who is likely to be fertile.

    Is it unfair to view a woman in her late 20s as a better mate than a woman in her mid-30s, if all other things are equal? Maybe it is unfair; however, I bet that a large number of single women in their mid-30s unfairly excluded a large percentage of men who were the same age as them when they were in their mid-20s because they thought that those guys were boring or lacking in confidence.

  • Jess

    Well I agree with one thing. When it comes to biology life is seldom fair or kind.
    Otherwise there would no such thing as varicose veins, double chins, impotence, early menopause or bald patches.
    .
    I agree, all things being equal ( they never are) a 20yo is more attractive than a 40 yo.
    It’s almost beyond denial. But that was never in dispute.
    .
    If you find women your own age jaded that may be a reflection of your company or you picked incompatable 40 yo. I think many 35 yo men might find a 25yo a tad naive and immature. A bit irritating perhaps? Or perhaps you like the fact they admire the older man. They may appreciate your solvency perhaps?
    .
    I am glad the 40yo demonstrate e

  • Jess

    I am glad the 40 yo s demonstrate feelings of entitlement. They should do, just as men should do. It is good to have esteem and good ( though not ludicrous) expectations. Life and experience have perhaps brought them this confidence.
    .
    Clearly they are not your cup of tea and if you are dating a 25 yo and younger both happy good for both of you.
    .
    In the past if these women may have rejected you it was maybe because they weren’t attracted to you? It doesn’t mean they were just holding out for the 9’s of the world?
    Maybe at 35 you have style, means and confidence now?
    Who knows? But as you say life isn’t fair.
    You are doing ok now. As will most these women eventually.

  • terre

    To be quite frank, Jess, we can’t say for certain what the future holds for promiscuous women because American women have never in history been as promiscuous as they are today. Given the plummeting rate of marriage, I don’t foresee anything particularly pleasant.

  • Jess

    ‘anything particularly pleasant’ – hilarious.
    Oh there will be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth!
    .
    Women have been enjoying sexual freedoms for a while now.
    Birthrate seems ok. Divorce may be on the increase as both sexes prefer not to stagnate in bad marriages.
    Also a lot of couples don’t bother with marriage anyway.
    I’m not aware of any normal sexually active women who has failed to get an LTR when she was ready.
    So like I say, no need to panic girls.

  • Höllenhund

    “Birthrate seems ok.”

    Did you actually bother looking at the stats? They are way below the replacement level everywhere in the West.

    “I’m not aware of any normal sexually active women who has failed to get an LTR when she was ready.”

    How do you explain the louder and louder complaints of middle-age women that they cannot find an “eligible” man? The widespread complaints of women in general that men are “avoiding commitment”? Yes, woman are able to form LTRs – just not with the men they can get to commit.

    Just keep fiddling as Rome burns, Jess. Your solipsism is hilarious.

  • terre

    Jess, half of babies born in the U.S. are not white/Euro-American. The U.S.’ birth rate is being bolstered by its unusual status as an immigrant nation; whites outside of Utah and the South are suffering from sub-replacement fertility levels on par with Western Europe. In Germany, the problem is so bad that housing developments are being torn down by city planners (Berlin is infamous for being a squatter-friendly metropolis, since the ratio of people to houses is so disproportionate).

  • Kurt

    Jess, yes it is true that many 25 year-olds might be immature and some might appreciate a man’s “solvency.” However, there are also many older women who are also the same way. In fact, older women are often worse about the money thing because they are desperate to get married and want a man with money who would be a good provider.

    You might find this hard to believe, but there actually are some well-balanced attractive women in their late 20s who are genuinely attracted to men in their mid-30s and it really isn’t because of the men’s net worth. I actually find that if anything many women seem to undervalue a man’s earning capabilities.

  • Jess

    I saw a documentary last month that said there was global overcrowding.
    Due to longer life expectancy and industrialisation of the third world we are facing a energy and food shortage.
    I also know that london suffers a nurse and midwife shortage so i wasn’t aware of a birth deficit as such but I’m sure your data is reliable.
    .
    I have heard women sometimes moan about commitment. But at the end of the day the guy caves or she finds someone who does commit.
    .

  • Marc

    Good points Kurt. I am 31, and have zero attraction to women in their 30’s or 40’s. I recognize some of them are beautiful, but there is no “click” in my brain. It’s not my fault, it’s 3 million years of instinct.

    I want to give my future child the best chance at being healthy, and younger women produce healthier children, period.

    Also, I deserve to have the best years of the mother of my future child. I am planning ahead, nothing wrong with that. A 32 yo may look good today, and be somewhat fertile. But, what about in 10 years????? A 22 yo is going to look better and be fertile much longer.

    There’s nothing negative about what I just said, it’s all positive…..unless you’re a bitter 45 yo.

    I agree again with Kurt. I never met a normal man who wants a girl with lots of “tricks in the sack”. I would prefer a younger, less attractive girl with zero tricks, than an attractive women in her 30’s or 40’s with “experience”. Yuck.

  • Marc

    Well each to their own marc.
    Some girls in their 20s do indeed prefer guys in their 30s so you will make out fine I’m sure.
    .
    Happily not all men demand their partner be a decade younger than themselves.
    .
    Also many men do like the idea of an experienced girl and I know plenty of women who have married younger men. I don’t think they planned to, it was just who they fell in live with.
    .
    If however Marc, you find yourself rejected a lot by 25 yos you may wish to realign your criteria but I imagine you shouldn’t need to.

  • Jess

    Sorry, last post was from me not Marc
    Jess

  • Rye

    The post originally started off as a post on “too attractive” females not being approached, but has evolved into a “do men prefer and exprienced women or a young one”

    Jess,
    As a young woman who surfs countless blogs and is fascinated by this topic, I am going to have to say the points you are trying to assert are wrong. Dead wrong.

    Susanawalsh.
    Great site! Some good articles for young ladies to read. With regards to the recent posts, I would suggest reading blogs by Roissy, Roosh or listening to youtube clips of Tom Leykis.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmBB3pwuvqg

    If women truely wanted to *learn* the unabashed male perspective, they would have to *listen* to an unbaised male point of view. When you read posts by Marc, Kurt, or Dashiell, you know you are getting the real deal. The reason many men do not want to commit to older, “experienced” and “liberated” women is simply because of the baggage that comes along with them. Plus, Jess’ assertion that younger women are immature is pure gibberish. Men are simply wired to desire younger women.

    I am 19 years old, a swimwear model, and about to graduate college this summer. I have my priorities straight. However, hearing stories of women not being able to find a mate in their late 30s and 40s makes me sad. Young women today need the guidance of older women to give them good advice about getting a mate (start looking seriously for a husband at 23 years old, and marry at 25-30). Advice from clueless women like Jess are just hurting women’s perceptions of themselves.

    -Rye

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Pretty Lonely
    It sounds like you are really, really discouraged. I can understand why if you feel that you have spent eight years unproductively. I would say that the most important things for you going forward:
    1. Definitely take the initiative with men you find attractive.
    2. Don’t waste time on men who do not share your values. You don’t need four years to figure out a man doesn’t want to get married to you. Qualify men by determining whether they want the same things you do before getting very involved.
    3. Do not attempt to hide your beauty. Cutting your hair short is not the answer if your goal is to look less attractive. Embrace your own looks and make the most of them. Just understand that the men who are most likely to approach you are probably the least worthy.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Oh pish posh, Jess. Honestly, this is nonsensical. Of course fertility is tied to youth, and drops off well before 38. In fact, I recently read that there is a huge drop at age 27. I’m sure this can easily be researched by studying infertility stats, which have skyrocketed with the average age of marriage. We begin menstruating at 11 – do you really believe we’re very fertile 26 years later? And even if we’re capable of bearing a child at 40, suggesting that we’re just as desirable is preposterious. That’s not to say you can’t find love and great sex at 40 – but you’re going to be up against stiff competition from younger, more nubile, and yes, fertile women. The press is full of these spinster sob stories, as are the self-help bookshelves. Mike C just linked to this article, which is germane to this topic:

    http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/111695344.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUvDEhiaE3miUsZ

  • filrabat

    The big elephant in the room of this discussion I see here is this:

    The male libido cools down as they age. Maybe not for all me, but a staggeringly high percentage of them considering the typical male reluctance to admit to a decreased libido due to its supposedly “unmanliness”. Even at age 30, men’s libido’s – though still somewhat strong – aren’t nearly as tyrannically high as even five years earlier. And yes, this does vary by individual, yes, but this is an overall general tendency for the male gender as a whole. By 35 and especially by 40, a lot – and I mean a lot – of men start to think “Sex? Ehhh…ok..”

    I myself had this happen to me a bit earlier than usual (around 28, 29-ish..hard to pinpoint). Certainly by 30 I started to enter the “Ehh, ok” phase, and has only declined since. In fact, for several years, I wondered if I was turning asexual. I eventually decided I wasn’t turning into one, given that women can still attract my attention just from their physical features and certain personality traits alone. But that doesn’t hold my attention nearly as much as 15 years ago. Result: I find myself less and less motivated to meet women, no matter how young or nubile or curvy or accomplished. Women (at least as far as relationships are concerned) are simply not relevant to my happiness at my age (43) and haven’t been for at least 14 years.

    I only bring this up because women seeking husbands can always – according to popular myth – look to older single men. This is simply untrue more often than we think, for reasons described above. Life’s experience with drama, relationship politics, etc. only further reinforces the apathy. I’d imagine this is particularly true for men with lots of bad experiences with women in their younger days. Why would they want to date the very types of women who rejected them in their younger years (i.e. the hot ones, even solidly intelligent and accomplished attractive women). In fact, they’re probably glad their libido is – if not dead, at least on the way out. Oh, they still find such women attractive and may even have sexual fantasies about them – but that’s as far as it’s gonna go. Granted, younger men do make poor choices in women too but this does not change the fact that MANY men’s libidoes decline as early as their 30s. This also does much to reduce the supply of available older men the women of marriagable age want.

    As for the men in their early 30s still in the dating market, their priorities also changed (at least the committment-minded ones). Substance,personal content, and overall integrity and trustworthiness will count for more – and they will sacrifice A LOT in the way of beauty, style, charm, personal charm, accomplishments, and even intelligence to get that substance, integrity, etc. They’ve had their experiences with “hot” women, and found that so many were not good wife material, or even considerate of other’s concerns. The aforementioned natural decline of the male sex drive (at least in many men) only makes it easier to succeed at what I just described.

    So it is that the posts discussed immediately above have a lot more urgency than is commonly thought — unless we want to completely do away with not just marriage but with committment and parenthood altogether (I’m not holding my breath for that one).

  • Jess

    Good point filibrat,
    I’m afraid nature didn’t really design us so well when it came to this issue.
    .
    Women reach their sexual peak at 40 but mens is at 18.
    So this is a bit of a bummer for both genders.
    It may explain the cougar thing but most women cannot stand 18 yo guys despite the fact they may be the most sexually compatible in terms of sex drive.
    For 1000s of years life expectancy was 22. Nature didn’t figure us living till 75.
    Plus life is not sentimental, nature only cares about us living long enough to breed not the complications of LTRs.
    I don’t think this issue is thought about in advance by people though, they tend to follow their heart instead but it’s a highly pertinent point. The 35 year old guy may have trouble keeping up with his 25 yo wife 10 years down the line.
    Hope you are listening Marc?

  • Jess

    Dear Susan,
    Did you find my 2 missed posts? One appeared for a day and then vanished.
    .
    Re: fertility.
    I know you appreciate science so I used several sources that gave the same info.
    Nhs, baby centre web site, several USA fertility info sites.
    They all said the same thing.
    Fertility does steadily drop off in a straight line from 18 to 50. The line is gentle though.
    .
    So yes there is a link with age- we agree on that don’t we?
    Fertiltity graphs are a measure of pregnancy verses copulation attempts.
    So you have to do it more times to concieve if you are 30 compared to being 20 (probably)
    However infertility( a total inability to conceive) only suddenly increases at 38 ( though the USA sites said 35-40)
    I didn’t see anything about infertility jumping up at 27. Are you sure thats right?
    Happy to be corrected of course. I agree it’s important girls have this critical info.
    .
    Desirability-
    I have just read back my posts and I did make it clear that 20 yo women were hotter than 40 yo women. So I think we already agree there.
    That does not mean to say I would go along with marc’s attitude though which was a bit shallow IMO.

  • filrabat

    @Jess

    “I don’t think this issue is thought about in advance by people though, they tend to follow their heart instead but it’s a highly pertinent point.”

    That is precisely the problem – more specifically a combination of hormone intoxication and a frankly obsolete brain architecture. If I had the Power of God (so to speak), then – given that we need much more education to make a living than even 50 years ago, plus that the very physical environment we live in is not fit for a Stone Age mentality — then, with that “Power of God”, I’d reset human biology to where both genders don’t hit puberty until around age 25, perhaps even 30. We’d have more life experience by this time and (likely) know what the whole point of romantic relationships are in the first place: primarily reproductive (from a strict biological perspective).

    BUT..the silver lining in all this is that we humans are pretty damned good at figuring things out. We have greater capacity for forethought than animals do. We’re the only animals that figured out (to a great extent, at least) nature’s game plan for us AND the ability to question the relevance of that game plan, including it’s timing.

    Therefore, at this point, the problem isn’t so much our brain’s ability, or even our sex drive. It’s our culture. We do not have a culture that encourages a conscious and deliberate postponement of things romantic and sexual before thinking of the consequenses. That may work fine in the animal kingdom and perhaps even primitive societies, but not for an Industrial Age one and certainly not for a Computer Age one. We have to face the knowledge that not only our biology, but much of human nature itself is frankly obsolete. Ironically, that knowledge can help us navigate the relationship minefield – IF we consciously and deliberately decide to overrule our biological and emotional natures. In fact, that’s the only hope there is.

  • Marc

    Women are revered in society for motherly qualities. This means youth and good looks. (Healthy, fertile, and more likely to pass our genes succesfully).

    Women like handsome men also. But, men are more revered in society for their ability to bring meat back to the cave. (Income to feed the babies and……pass genes). It goes on and on. It’s no big secret.

    Boobs? Why do men love boobs? They are not “for us”. They are for feeding babies, thats it. We like big, healthy looking boobs because it appears they have sufficient milk to provide for our babies….thats it!!!

    Whether you like it or not, we live subconsciously. We have 3million years guiding our moves. You can intelligently argue all of it, but you’re not going to buck mother nature and her 300+ BILLION years of experience.

    Back on topic about pretty girls having it harder. Many do. Think of this. The bell curve, most people are 4’s,5’s and 6’s in the looks department. Most people get together with people in their same league. That being said, a gorgeous woman actually has MUCH LESS opportunity in the dating community. She can/will only date a guy who is also a 9 or 10. There are not many 9’s or 10’s available. The 4’s 5’s and 6’s have billions of choices for mates, whereas a 10 has very little choices. Could be very frustrating, especially since most women in their teens and twenties desire a man slightly older. Most high value 30 year old men have been taken. This leaves them lowering their standards, or sticking to their guns and being constantly frustrated. “Why can’t I find a good guy” really means “I am pretty, and deserve a hot, rich, romantic 30 year old, but can’t land one”. The competition for that guy is fierce, believe me. There are MANY more hot young girls, than high value 30 yo dudes.

    Susan and Rye, good comments. Rye, I am happy to share genuine thougths about how us guys think. Unbiased, sometimes hard to swallow, truth.

  • Jess

    Yes, I think it’s important that people reject ancient notions and look at things altruistically.
    It’s so true that youthfull mistakes can be so disastrous.
    .
    However it’s so difficult to change the urges.
    A horny young guy will always lust after girls.
    And you cannot force a girl to fancy someone she doesn’t.
    In crude terms, if they dont make you wet or hard, it ain’t happening.
    Of course this is ancient biology and should be dismissed as you say.
    But how does one achieve this with ethical means?

  • filrabat

    BTW, I can also say “you can’t force a guy to lust after girls he doesn’t find even marginally attractive. And you force young girls to be turned off by confidence, money, social suaveness, swagger, and “alpha” traits” – foir both genders, at the expense of the boring but important traits that make up a truly sustainable relationship.

    For the human species as a whole, it’s so deeply rooted in our DNA and/or neural architecture that we can’t come even close to eliminating this disconnect between our biology and our technology-oriented physical environment. We can minimize or maximize these tendencies in people with heterosexual urges of normal strength for that age though – chiefly through changing the culture and (for those who care to call it this) mass propaganda. We have a chance with young people whose sex drives are considerably weaker than the norm, yes. BUT, as I said, we can’t come even close to eliminating this problem for the youth / young adult population as a whole. All we can do is hope that we simply evolve out of this eventually (but that’ll take at least 100 generations, if it can be accomplished at all).

  • filrabat

    BTW, I don’t think I contradicted myself in the last two posts. My point was that even though we can’t eliminate our “choosers” (i.e. the bundle of ideas in our brains that cause us to involuntarily be initially and superficially attracted to someone) – we CAN question how reliable our “choosers” are. But only rarely do we ever do so, at least not until we’re in our late 20s at the youngest. Therefore, we need to change the culture so that it encourages (even demands) skepticism about our “choosers”, even as we can’t eliminate our urges.

  • terre

    Jess, you can’t just name your sources when you make a claim that “[…] fertility does steadily drop off in a straight line from 18 to 50. The line is gentle though.” You have to link to them, or at least name the studies. 50-year-old women are nigh infertile.

  • Höllenhund

    “Women reach their sexual peak at 40 but mens is at 18.”

    ROFL/LMAO! Do I even need to point out the rather obvious evidence to the contrary?

  • Jess

    Terre,
    Try the ‘baby centre’, nhs websites, or type in ‘infertility and age’ into your search engine.
    The baby centre has a graph showing infertility and fertility plotted against age on the same graph.
    .
    Hollenhund,
    Am I to assume you disagree with the sexual peak thing? It’s a well known truism in the uk.
    I think it came originally from kinseys research.
    I looked at the web and some people refute this though.
    Tbh I have always had a fairly good libido since 18 but most of my friends say they are much more sexually needy since hitting 30.

  • Jess

    Filibrat,
    Yes I agree, if only we could change the ‘choosing’ mechanisms.
    .
    But in the uk we have had massive safe sex campaigns but we are still having 8 yo kids having terminations, STDS are on the rise, most pop music is highly sexual.
    .
    Nothing less than a dictatorship could avert this in my view.
    .
    I know I’m not providing any helpful suggestions- I wish I knew how to solve this issue.
    I think alcohol and drugs are the real enemies because it removes inhibitions or even consciousness. Thing is prohibition didn’t work to well when you guys tried it?

  • terre

    Jess, those “massive safe sex” campaigns are part of the problem. If you assume teenagers are supposed to be having sex, you normalize that expectation and the astute ones will start doing it. Their parents aren’t teaching them about soul partnership or chastity, they’re just letting them take lessons from wherever (crappy pop music that shoves sex to make a buck) and when they get to school and realize they’re supposed to be having sex already it causes panic and untold anxiety. I know because I’m young enough that I was pushed through one of the UK’s constant “sex ed” classes.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rye
    Thanks for the comment – I’m trying to be that wise old woman :)
    .
    @Marc
    I agree with your comment 100%. It’s all about biology, and promulgating the species. Once we accept that, we can be more successful in mating.

  • Jess

    Terre,
    This is the age old dilemma- how to stop humans doing something they enjoy but does long term harm.
    I think the ‘ just say no’ approach has been tried many times but it just doesn’t seem to work. USA tried it with drugs. So did the uk.
    USA tried it with alcohol. Never works.
    .
    So I think the thinking is that ‘if we can’t stop them then we at least should educate them’.
    I agree this is only partially successful but may be the best of 2 poor options.
    Driving something underground just means misinformation and ignorance which could literally cost lives.
    It’s true that if 15 yos are given a condom demonstration it normalizes teenage sex.
    But trust me you do need to teach them this otherwise the teenage pregnancy figures would go up even more. A lot more.
    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t eh?
    Ps don’t get me started on the media sexualisation of children!!! Another thread entirely i think…

  • karen

    @Marc
    What you say is so true. I guess I always believed that most college educated people wouldn’t start to settle down till their late 20’s at the earliest. Imagine my surprise when over the last couple of years I’ve been meeting all of these great guys who either married while in college or soon after college graduation. Where I am at, it is very difficult to meet a guy in his late 20’s or early 30’s who is college educated, single, and has a great personality. Most of the guys who meet these characteristics have already been snapped up. All the single guys are usually players or guys that even your average plain Jane didn’t want. I still remember being 23 and thinking that there was no rush to find a mate. Now, a few years later, I have having a hard time just meeting single men. And I know other females who are in my same predicament. These females are also ready to marry a good guy and have babies but they just can’t meet any. And we don’t want rich, good looking alpha males but decent guys that we can see ourselves growing old with.

  • Rachael

    This article is almost 100% on point. Except in high school , I had trouble making and keeping friends. The very same females who would say I was “gorgeous” were the very same ones lying about me behind my back and so on.
    After so much unwarranted drama with so many females, I finally decided to just give up on female friendships altogether. My friends are family members.
    I still get the petty and insane behavior from random women at work, school and so on. I ignore it all. I don’t think women realize how stupid and obviously insecure they make themselves look when they behave that way. *SMH*
    Also, I rarely date. Men who approach me only do so after lots of eye contact, smiles and soft conversation. The worst is when a guy who wants to approach loses his nerve. They don’t know it but I spend MOST of my nights alone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rachael
      I’m so sorry to hear of your experiences. I know that women can be fierce and cruel when it comes to competing for men. It is terrible to frighten men away too. I’ve heard beautiful girls wonder if they’re ugly after all because the minute they make eye contact with a guy he nervously looks away.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Rachael
    I totally feel you. I was never the pretty girl but I always made friends with the pretty girl for the reasons you mentioned. The other girls were pretty much just waiting for her to turn her back to chew her on for no good reason and I found that so unfair. I also tried to keep the rumors at the minimum and always talk well of them to people that asked me, I did had a lot of pretty girl friends that had few options usually they had to pick for a smaller pool of men because few of them were brave enough to approach and a lot of them assumed that the girl in question had something wrong (gold diggers, shallow, stupid, slutty….surely the rumors)
    I don’t know how old are you but my advice is to try and model even if not for a big company. I seem that those venues are usually filled with men that will approach you and talk to you, some of them will be jerks, some of them will be married but at least a third of them will actually be dateable and maybe you will have more options. Another options is acting again more chances to meet pretty people that won’t be that intimidated about your looks, again two thirds would be waste but if you are smart you might find good company.
    Good luck in life and love.

  • Hannah

    Hi Susan,
    I have a situation I was hoping you could shed some light on for me. I hate having to say this so blatantly, but I’m very pretty (been called a hard 10 several times)….but am very inexperienced and shy when it comes to guys (I’m in college). Recently a guy I like (and who has told people he likes me) made a move on me but apparently some subtle thing I said right after made him think I rejected him (as I later learned from friends). Ever since then he’s been avoiding me and when I try to “amend” things he’s not receptive. A few of my friends think I really hurt his feelings without meaning to! ..but then when I try to fix it, it doesn’t work…is it possible that he’s really damaged from this/confused about the “mixed signals” I’m unintentionally sending out (due to shyness), or has he simply lost interest?
    Thanks; I really appreciate it!

  • Hannah

    and just to clarify, by “trying to fix it” I mean I dropping more hints that I’m interested. However, my friends say that I need to be super aggressive b/c the ball is now “in my court”…but I’m not wired that way!! Not sure how to put myself out there without making a fool of myself…or if it’s even worth it b/c he might be over it

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hannah
      That’s a tough one. It sounds like both of you are guarded and shy. Hard to know whether he’d give it a chance, but the only way you’ll find out is to express interest very explicitly. You could ask him if he wants to hang out sometime. You don’t need to be super aggressive – just make a friendly overture that involves the two of you hanging out alone. That way there’s no doubt that you are specifically seeking his company. If he says no, FIDO (f*ck it drive on). If he really is “damaged” by what’s happened, it sounds like he’s not ready for the risk taking that any relationship requires.

  • Not pretty, really

    Well, I have been told I’m pretty, but I have to be told because I don’t think I am at all. Not from the way men treat me. I understand what she was talking about with men saying vulgar things. When you are pretty, don’t you get treated like you’re pretty? I had a female boss go on and on about how pretty she thought I was and how she couldn’t believe I wasn’t married. It makes me want to cry. Another person once told me I wasn’t using my looks right and how much better their life would be if they had my green eyes and curly hair. I went home and cried. They don’t understand that men just want to screw me and I think I’m really ugly because I can’t find someone who really likes me for me and wants to be with me.

    I give up. I feel like singing Morrissey and Smiths songs all the time.

    I am human and I need to be loved just like everybody else does…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Not pretty, really
      I’m sorry you feel unloved, or appreciated just for your looks. As you can see from this thread, you are not alone. In the contemporary sexual marketplace, the prettiest women lose out, because many men are interested in having as much sexual variety as possible. I encourage you to look wider, and harder, to identify men who are relationship oriented. Then you’ll have to provide direct encouragement to let any of them know they’ve got a shot. There are plenty of men who would like you for you, as well as your looks, but they won’t be the guys approaching you to screw.

      You totally get bonus points for appreciating Morrissey, by the way. He’s a genius.

  • Bella

    Pretty girls do have it hard. It’s always difficult for me to tell whether a guy really likes me for me, or he just wants to sleep with me. Because when men wants something, they can act so charming and sweet and I’m way too naive and trusting so sometimes I get tricked into thinking they are decent men when they are not. And I really should know the difference by now because I’m 21, but sadly, seems like I never learned. (If there’s a prize for rotten judgment, I’ve already won it!) I just had my heart broken by a man who happened to fall into the latter category. And it sucks because I think he might have taken away my ability to trust.

    Although I am approachable, I am not easy! I’m usually careful about getting into relationships because I know I am the kind of person who will get attached if I sleep with someone, so I have never had just casual sex. And I’ve always had men pursuing me and I constantly get asked out even when I was in a long term relationship (and they know it!). Now that I am single, I got more men asking me out than I can handle. I’m being constantly pursued by men I know well, men I just met, men who are friends with my friends, men who are friends with my ex, men at the bar, men at college, men at work… and my really great guy friends :(

    I know people will hate me for saying this, but there are times in my life when I wish I wasn’t born so privileged. It brings more trouble than benefits/advantages. Sure, it’s nice to be let into bars/pub/clubs free and without waiting in line. Sure it’s nice to always have at least one man helping me out with things. Sure it’s nice and fun to go on casual dates, and have all the attention I want, and men to talk to, any time and any where I want. And it’s really nice to never be rejected and to always get the men I want. But it’s gotten to the point where I’m actually afraid to make eye contact with men for too long because they might think I’m interested and make advances! Because just last Friday, I was called hot and being hit on all because I chatted with him after the law final, and I was in sweatpants with little makeup.

    But it’s not real.

    And there’s another thing. I don’t know how to play the game. I’m one of those pretty girls who is really nice, genuine and sweet, and who doesn’t play games. And although I am confident most of the time, some times it scares me just how alone I might be when one day I am no longer young and pretty. Because I can never tell if men are interested in me because I am pretty, or because I am pretty… amazing as a person.

  • OffTheCuff

    Bella. It’s a fool’s errand to want to wait for guys to “see the real you” before they approach you. But if you insist, I’m sure you can find some anonymous chat room where you can only be judged on your character, and men will fall in love with your personality. Of course, you’ll find them all revolting.

    The point is, men and women both can’t expect to turn off our attraction triggers. You *do* have it easier – 100% of the people you meet will be attracted to you, so you don’t ever have to even think about it. All you have to concern yourself with is if 1) you like him, and, 2) if he is willing to get to know the real you. Players won’t want to take the time to do this. Like car thieves, they will want to move on to easier targets.

    That latter part is key. You can’t expect men to take the risk and initiative to approach you but simultaneously not be attracted to you, any more than a guy can expect hot girls to approach him so he can avoid the possibility of rejection. It just won’t work. If you get all offended if people hit on you, imagine what it’s like to never be approached. Ever.

    If hot people really had it harder, they’d get plastic surgery to make themselves uglier. Or eat lots of donuts.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I give up. I feel like singing Morrissey and Smiths songs all the time.”
    .
    I also love the Smiths, but I caution everybody to only listen to them when you’re in a good mood and a good way in life. Listening to them when you’re down is hazardous to your health!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also love the Smiths, but I caution everybody to only listen to them when you’re in a good mood and a good way in life. Listening to them when you’re down is hazardous to your health!

      I don’t know. You’re unlikely to be applying for jobs as a back scrubber. Or have a girlfriend in a coma. No one has it as bad as Morrissey. We can all feel successful by comparison.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Bella,
    .
    “And there’s another thing. I don’t know how to play the game. I’m one of those pretty girls who is really nice, genuine and sweet, and who doesn’t play games. And although I am confident most of the time, some times it scares me just how alone I might be when one day I am no longer young and pretty. Because I can never tell if men are interested in me because I am pretty, or because I am pretty… amazing as a person.”
    .
    I think I can help you. What is your phone number?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “No one has it as bad as Morrissey. We can all feel successful by comparison.”
    .
    Maybe. he also has the distinction of being the most out musician who was never officially out. He makes Freddie Mercury look/sound like Fred MacMurray.
    .
    I will say Morrissey had quite the stage presence in his Smiths days. God that was a good band.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I will say Morrissey had quite the stage presence in his Smiths days. God that was a good band.

      Agreed, they cast a really long shadow. Not just musically – yesterday I overheard Joe the Hipster at Whole Foods tell his bagger that he is going to cut off his long hair and rock the Morrissey look.

  • Bella

    If you get all offended if people hit on you, imagine what it’s like to never be approached. Ever.

    OffTheCuff:
    I should have phrased what I said better. I don’t get offended when people hit on me. It’s just when I see those nice guys who I’m just not interested in, either because of differences in values, personalities or just because I’m not physically attracted to them, and I see them trying to hit on me constantly or make advances, I get a little nervous because I hate rejecting people, so I try to avoid their eyes and drop subtle hints that I’m not interested in hopes that they’d back off before getting hurt! Because I know all too well what it’s like to be lead on and then left dangling there wondering what went wrong.

    And I do eat donuts. I eat one almost every day. It’s so bad hahaha, but I don’t really put on weight :P so I don’t work out either.

    Badger:
    Haha you’re funny.

  • OffTheCuff

    So that’s it? Pretty girls have it harder because you have to avert eye contact, otherwise you have to reject men explicitly? This sounds like Bill Gates complaining he gets lost in his mansion.

  • Marc

    To Bella. “Tough it out dear”, your “problems” will be over soon enough! You will find yourself becoming more invisible to men every day after the age of 17.

    I do empathize with hot girls for one reason. They actually do have LESS dating choices than average girls. A girl who is a 10 won’t date a 5 or 6. She will only date an 8, 9, or 10 who is also wealthy, smart, witty, etc. There aren’t many of us around. So her choices are few, not many.

  • Bella

    If I don’t avert eye contact, I don’t know what else I can do. I hate rejecting people, but I have to do it. I just don’t want to lead people on because I know what it’s like to waste time.

    Marc: that’s not true. I’ve dated 5-7s.

  • Marc

    Bella. Most guys don’t understand the “bitch shield”. I am a supporter of the bitch shield. I know if a gorgeous girl entertains every guy just to be nice, she will never get rid of him!
    ……..
    One of my favorite phenomenons is this…..the girls who are not all that attractive, but put up the bitch shield!! I chuckle inside when I see this. People emulate other people that they want to be like. So an average girl sees a pretty girl being bitchy and stuck up, so she thinks this is how she should act! But the average girl doesn’t realize that the gorgeous girl does it out of necesity, not because she really wants to.
    ………
    I smile at nearly every woman I come into contact with, old, young, fat, midgets etc. It makes everyone feel good. Sometimes women take this as flirting. I am skilled enough to slip out of the situation without being bitchy. Many women don’t have the social skills to get out gracefully, so they just act retarted by being non-attentive, bitchy etc. I get it.
    ……..
    Bella. If you’ve dated 5’s and 6’s, why are you not still with them? Because the fact that you said that leads us to believe that you think you are in a higher league than them. It may be true. You don’t want a guy you percieve to be lower in value than you. Water finds its own level. People shoot out of their league till they realize their own league. For women, many times they don’t realize their league until the crows feet set in, ….don’t let that be you!

  • Sam

    Hello, I’m a guy and I have recently find this website. The viewpoints are really interesting.

    A little background about me: Back in high school, I wasn’t a social person at all and so when I went to college, I nearly dropped out. But I kept shouldering on and struggled to finish school, because I believe that if I can just become financially capable to support a girl, a pretty girl will eventually come along and see that I’m better than those pick-up artist who focus so much on their time on just banging a girl.

    Guess what, during my last semester, a pretty girl did in fact come along. I couldn’t believe my luck when she agreed to lunch with me. I admit, a great part of my attraction comes from the fact that she’s very attractive, but I also feel a bond with her because we both were ostracized during high school. She was sending me all these signals, but I was so shy and didn’t believe it was possible. So I didn’t tell her but continued to shower her with gifts and attention, and hoping that she would get the hint.

    And three months later, she found out that I actually have a crush on her but didn’t tell her, and she wouldn’t even consider going out with me anymore. I really feel I’m worthless. I said some very mean things to her that I regretted, but the emotional angst knowing that I could have get her to date me was even worse. For a while I was just paralyzed–I couldn’t focus on anything at all. I couldn’t decide whether to remain friends with her or not–on one hand, I really feel her pain because it’s something I’ve experienced myself. On the other hand, getting rejected really hurts.

    I’m trying really hard to do the right thing but it’s so hard. Can anyone give me some advice? Thanks!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sam
      Seriously, you need to learn about Game. She disrespected you b/c you put her on a pedestal and were afraid to make moves. This is a very common problem for guys, and being shy really compounds it. Lots of pretty girls don’t want a PUA, but they do like the confidence PUAs are able to display. I write about Game here, so keep reading, and be sure to check out the blogs on my blogroll under the heading Being Male. In particular, you might like Badger Hut and Becoming Alpha. I hope you’ll comment again soon!

  • Sam

    Susan,

    Thank you. Thank you so much. I’ll definitely keep myself updated on this.

    Sam

  • Anonymous

    I’ve had similar experience to other commenters. My entire life(as soon as my brief awkward stage ended around 12 or 13) I’ve been constantly told how pretty I was by complete strangers, stared at by everyone, received inappropriate comments from old men, etc. Yet at 20 I’ve never had a boyfriend, I didn’t have a date to my prom, my “love life” has been characterized by a long string of drunken hook-ups, many of whom bragged about it and spread lies about me after. I’ve had a handful of male friends who expressed feelings for me whom I was not interested in and I felt horrible rejecting them. This has caused me to feel uncomfortable talking to boys in general. Boys I find attractive I assume to be assholes or players and have difficulty speaking to without blushing or being purposefully bitchy and although I usually feel comfortable talking to less attractive guys as soon as they seem overly friendly I tend to go cold to avoid latter flat out rejection. I have had difficulty making friends at college, I ended up an athlete at a school that was an academic safety. Girls tend to gravitate towards girls that are similarly attractive and here pretty girls like to go out far too much for someone like me. My relationships with my grade-level teammates are shallow and feel very forced.
    I have not found my looks to be much of an advantage in life, I find people expect me to be something I’m not and rarely take me seriously as a student or an athlete. My high school classmates believed I was smart but mainly because many of them had known me for a long time and while I was still awkward. However out of all my high school teammates I’m the only one who went on to continue the sport at a DI level for more than a year and all my high school classmates are shocked when they find this out. At

  • Anonymous

    college I do not dress up for class, I wear very little make-up, and I am usually fairly lazy about using my acne meds so my skin is not in great shape. But the fact is I still receive unwanted attention in sweats, with no makeup and zits. And being pretty and a college athlete are two huge strikes against anyone taking me seriously as a student.
    The only legitimate ‘perks’ I can really attribute to my looks are being hired to a retail job off of nothing but a picture and my SSN and the barista at Starbucks charging me for a grande and giving me a venti.
    I feel that my looks have largely led to the creation of bizarre insecurities, feeling socially isolated and awkward, and patterns of self-sabotage. And even though I receive so much unwanted attention no boy I’ve ever had a crush on has paid me any mind and a few have even hooked up with close friends of mine. When things like this happen it causes me to question if I am actually pretty and I begin to wonder if everyone has just been lying to me my whole life. I don’t expect anyone to ever respect my academic or athletic achievement and I doubt that any boy will ever see me as more than a piece of ass or a trophy which are the last two things I want to be. I legitimately fear that I will never fall in love or get married even though I’m only 20. I am way too young to be this jaded and the feelings keep increasing.

  • caitlin

    Honestly I’m one of the people who believe my life would be better if I were more attractive. But it’s more so that I will feel better about myself if i were prettier. I shouldn’t be but I am depressed about my appearance because I’m 21 and have never had a boyfriend or even had the confidence to be friends with any of my many crushes. I feel pathetic and ugly, its the only reason I can think of why guys don’t like me. Also, I’ve always been compared to a girl who is completely opposite of me, tall, light skin, delicate, and she gets attention, what am I supposed to think of myself? I’ll never be what people call pretty, but really I just want a few guys to think I’m pretty then I’ll be happy. I think I’m ugly but I have the same problem of gross texts and drunken guys as those girls who are pretty have but I tend to think that guys think I’m just easy or something. I feel they think someone as unattractive as me would have sex without knowing them. It makes me sick to my stomach because I know they want to have sex with me because they think it’s easy, not because they think I’m pretty.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Actually both extremes are hard, but I think we should just assume that most men will think you are easy till you show them you are not. That is usually and impression built out of many sluts (ugly ones and hot ones) and men have a hard time separating one woman from the herd, specially if the herd is HUGE.

    I will say both need to make peace with their appearances, work to improve the areas that are lacking, in the case og ugglys get in shape, do some make up classes, and training and learn what kind of colors and clothes make them look better and on the case of pretty ones, learn to be able to find out exactly what kind of man they want.
    I will advice to both to be the ones initiating even if it hurts, because men approaching you are not giving what you want to, so learn to be the hunters, stop being the prey.
    Chances are that if you approach in a respectful non slutty matter to the type of guys you want in your life, chances are at least one of them will fall and in the end all we need is ONE.
    And as a personal advice, please if the guy is great and adores you. MARRY HIM. Really don’t listen to nonsense of too young, too poor… people can study, work and built a life after they got married if they did a good choice and you don’t need to date many man to learn that, look at all the sluts that are divorced their sleeping around didn’t made them any wiser, and once you are out of the dating market concentrating on keeping one man happy, is a lot easier than going back to it, if you read the blogs of the guys that are actively dating that post here or on the manosphere, you know the dating market is full of sharks as of now and is only going to get worse, no point in staying it it if you can possible avoid it, YMMV.

  • Gabe Asher

    The above paragraph was the longest run-on sentence I read in my life!

  • udolipixie

    @Susan
    This post hits home the thought of being some guy’s bragging rights he can show around as an accomplishment based only on my outer appearance sickens me.

    Quite funny how it’s not even the douches who do this but nice guys as well. The belief that nice guys who are too nervous to approach is a myth 5 of my friends debunked when they approached them. Those nice guys didn’t see or treat them any better than the douches the only difference was that the nice guys didn’t think they had a chance with a hot girl.

    @Marc
    “In time, I will capitulate, but only when I “am getting old”. I will date these women briefly, but always am looking for something better.”

    So if you’re not giving your best years right now to your future wife & plan on marrying younger why do you lecture women to do what you don’t?

    I’m well aware of older men preferring younger women it’s historical it’s just that I never really liked do as I say not as I do. I can respect do as I say not as I did because the speaker has learned from & stop his/her actions but you aren’t & haven’t in this case since you’re not spending your best years right now with your future wife.

    Though to be far what men & women value are different so if you’re spending your best years building financial security I can somewhat respect your lecturing.

    @Kurt
    “A single man who is 40 years old might settle down with a 40 year old woman if that is the best woman he thinks he can get and who will be loyal to him. However, I honestly think that most single 40 year old men would prefer to settle down with a 30 year old woman or even younger if they thought that they could get one who would stay loyal.”

    So why agree with Marc that women should spend their youth & beauty with a guy if when she hits whatever expiration date he personally has he’d prefer a younger woman & would take the chance if given?

    “However, when you were dating were you ever out on a date with someone with a sense of entitlement, and a bad and negative attitude?”

    Sounds like a lot of unattractive/average young and old men I know & some my friends even dated.

    Many of the young guys thought since they were nice attractive women (only attractive women) should give them a chance and judge a guy based on character not looks.

    Some thought they were 7s/8s and expected 9-10s when really they were 6s (though that may be from nice rejections by my colleagues).

    Plenty of the older guys were out of shape and expecting not only girls 15 – 20 years younger but the most attractive ones & got quite upset when the girls (2 were closed friends) used them for what little money they had.

    My friends badly rationalized their unacceptable behavior with “well this is a literal way of exchanging youth for resources.”

  • Sam F

    @udolipixie

    So you basically object when a rich older guy is trying to “buy” his way into your pants, right? Besides financial security, you would like your potential mate to have other qualities that you would really find attractive from a gut level, for instance: right kind of thinking, ambition, confidence, nice body, can handle himself in any situation, etc…

    So what do you think about a guy who’s currently a a loser now, but say: “I’m a loser but if I just resign myself and settle for what I can get, that’s resigning myself to fate. I want to work harder and see what I can *really* get from life!” and resolves to become the kind of man that is worthy of a beautiful lady?

  • udolipixie

    @Sam F
    I object when any guy tries to buy his way into my pants.

    However unlike a lot of girls I don’t want an older guy.

    I don’t seek financial security from a mate but rather emotional security. I have enough savings, modeling money, pageant money, and freelance money to support myself & any kids I adopt/in vitro.

    “So what do you think about a guy who’s currently a a loser now, but say: “I’m a loser but if I just resign myself and settle for what I can get, that’s resigning myself to fate. I want to work harder and see what I can *really* get from life!” and resolves to become the kind of man that is worthy of a beautiful lady?”
    That he’s unlike a lot of my male friends who feel entitled to their hot girl& want certain women to give them a chance & unlike my female friends who feel entitled to their prince despite not having the traits that make a girl a princess (being a high maintenance b*tch is not one).

    I’m all for personal development and realizing your flaws however if this is done just to attain beauty you might as well turn to pua/gaming.

    Everyone wants a partner they are attracted to but when appreciating attractiveness (liking it) becomes admiring (valuing it) it there tends to be problems.

    That settle for what I can get & worthy of a beautiful lady disappoints me though.

    What is settling to you is it being with a girl as equally attractive as you settling as is the case of my male friends?

    By being worthy do you only look to fix character issues & not appearance ones? Girls are less visual not blind & willing to compromise on looks when you have at least 70% of what they want.

  • Craven Moorehead

    @udolipixie

    “I don’t seek financial security from a mate but rather emotional security. I have enough savings, modeling money, pageant money, and freelance money to support myself & any kids I adopt/in vitro.”
    ……..
    Dear, really?? Did you know the Playmate of the year only receives 100k?? You have enough “savings” for everyone? From pageants???? What would a pageant pay, for example, in Toledo Ohio? First place $400? Or is that on the high side?
    …..
    Modeling? The lowest paid occupation on the planet, right next to musicians and actors. So, you’re set for life from county pageants and Sears catalog? Good luck with that.

  • Sam F

    @udolipixie

    Indeed, when someone goes for a pretty girl just because they want some kind of emotional validation, it poisons the entire relationship in the beginning. Been there, done that… ended up hurting a girl that I really admire, and I’ll probably regret it for the rest of my life.

    With that said, though, I do remember: once I worked in a convenience store and met a guy who pretty much survived on minimum wage and depended on borrowing from his mates to keep ends met. Yet, because he knows all the ways to have fun, never lose his cool around girls, know all the people in all the bars, etc, he can get all the pretty girls to sleep with him. I kid you not–I talked to some of the girls myself.

    I mean, put yourself in my shoes. Here I am saving up money, cutting off expenses (there are weeks I survived with less than $15 a week on food), and studying the hardest I can despite everything that had happened to me–and you tell me that this *loser* can get girls (7 or 8’s) while I have to settle for someone I’m not attracted to, just because I’m not “fun”, easily lose my nerve around girls and haven’t ever gone clubbing. Sorry, but I don’t think I can take that. I’d rather stay single for the rest of my life than to accept this. What is so wrong with sacrificing now so that you can be the kind of man to support your wife financially and emotionally?

  • udolipixie

    @Craven Moorehead
    “So, you’re set for life from county pageants and Sears catalog? Good luck with that.”

    I guess you overlooked freelance money & savings which come from two jobs- cna & bartending.

    Neither are my long term goal as I am currently getting my Bachelor’s in Nursing.

    Something I did not mention was my stash of 20 grand from odd jobs from my teenage years.

    Yeah I think I have more than enough to afford 2 daughters.

    Thanks for your somewhat snarky attempt at a dose of reality but reality is why I chose my adopt/in vitro path.

    @Sam F
    “What is so wrong with sacrificing now so that you can be the kind of man to support your wife financially and emotionally?”

    Nothing except try to reread your first sentence if what you value in your wife is looks and see if you have really learned from your mistake.

    Will you also be the kind of man your wife will be physically attracted to by looks or do you want her have to settle for someone I’m not attracted to for her to get the character she wants when you don’t want to do the same?

    “(there are weeks I survived with less than $15 a week on food)”
    Me too. When I save I really go into hardcore.

    “just because I’m not “fun”, easily lose my nerve around girls and haven’t ever gone clubbing”
    Sorry but if you value looks you have to bring something to the table that the pretty girls value.

    What do you mean by fun? Are you funny? A good conversationalist? Have any life experiences from traveling, volunteer work, hobbies?

    The reason you’re nervous (am I correct in assuming it’s only pretty girls?) is because you’re focusing on her looks because you value them. Try ignoring the looks. Ignore the looks not the girl somehow when I tell guys to ignore a girl’s look &treat her like any other girl they end up treating her like sh*t. It makes me wonder if guys are only nice to pretty girls instead of just nicer like studies claim. Treating her like sh*t will only result in obtaining a girl with low self esteem who seeks your validation.

    You don’t need to go clubbing unless that’s what the pretty girls you want do. If so you can’t fault them for wanting a partner who does what they do. Either go clubbing since that’s what the girls you want do or try another type of pretty girl. Try going for a pretty girl in places you frequent.

  • http://www.thoughtsfromtheboonies.blogspot.com Jason

    Sam, it’s not fair, life seldom is.

    There are women who haven’t ridden the carousel. There are women who expect a man to fulfil his traditional role while they fulfil theirs. Some of them are quite attractive. You won’t find them in clubs though.

    Nervousness around women is natural, at least for modern men. The only real way to overcome it is to spend lots of time with women. Becoming good at cold approaches means accepting a lot of failed approaches. It’s one of those “need experience to get a job, need a job to get experience” Catch-22s.

  • http://www.thoughtsfromtheboonies.blogspot.com Jason

    Oh, and never treat a woman badly. Maintain your own frame, and don’t allow her to push you around, but don’t treat her badly.

  • Sam F

    Thanks, guys, for the advices.

    What brought me to this site is the fact that I recently screwed up a chance with this really pretty girl I really like. She’s really unique–she really stands up for things she believe in, which I find really refreshing (even though there are times I disagree with her).

    Let me tell you a bit about myself: I grew up in an emotionally abusive home and my parents moved from Asia to America when I was 13, and the cultural shock eventually caused me to have a long (5+ years) depression. I have never really been able to connect with people well.

    And so, actually when I met this girl–I was wondering about the question myself: “Is this what love is supposed to be like? Am I crushing on her because she’s soooo pretty, or because I really really like her as a person?” Because of this, I hesitated–and we only remained friends (I didn’t know about the “friend zone” either). Imagine the shock when I found out later from her friends that, had I asked her out, she would have said yes! I just went into shock for the next month or so.

    Oh well, the past is the past, but from this experience I learned that:
    1) If you’re a guy and you have emotional problems, you can’t depend on anyone else. You have to fix it yourselves. If you’re a girl, sometimes you can count on finding a really great guy who will support you all the way–I’ve actually known a girl like that, and I’m really really envious. But I’m a guy. So, gotta toughen up.

    2) A guy really have to have experience with courting girls no matter what. If you’re not the kind of guy that are interested in things which can get you to meet girls (nerds, for instance, or math whizes), then you need to find other interests. Because desperation is sooooo not cool.

    3) Jason is right. Because of my inexperience with girls, I lost my frame around this girl and eventually she lost interest. No matter how pretty a girl may be, you definitely can’t lose your frame. If there’s anything I’ve learned from my ex co-worker, having your life defined by women would only make you miserable. Goals have to be beyond women.

    4) Matters of the heart are so complicated. I actually was naive enough to believe that girls and guys can remain friends. But these days, everytime I look at her profile picture on facebook and see how much she’s suffering from eating disorders–it really twists me up. So I had to defreidn her on facebook.

    Regret really is a bitch. I’ll try to meet more people from now on, although I really doubt I’ll find another girl that I like that much from this point on. Studying game really makes one more cynical… I feel like I’m selling my soul to the devil sometimes.

  • http://www.thoughtsfromtheboonies.blogspot.com Jason

    Tolkien described his character Faramir, arguably the most noble character in The Lord of the Rings, in comparison to his brother.

    “Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother’s.”

    Seeing the hearts of men (and women) truly gives you two options. You can pity them, or scorn them. For those pursuing nobility of character there is only the one.

  • Sam F

    Ok, my crush liked LOTR but I have always found that series boring… but if you keep this on, I’ll have to convert. :D

  • Platero

    @Caitlin I often feel the same way as you do when you say:

    I’ll never be what people call pretty, but really I just want a few guys to think I’m pretty then I’ll be happy. I think I’m ugly but I have the same problem of gross texts and drunken guys as those girls who are pretty have but I tend to think that guys think I’m just easy or something. I feel they think someone as unattractive as me would have sex without knowing them. It makes me sick to my stomach because I know they want to have sex with me because they think it’s easy, not because they think I’m pretty.

    I’m actually a little older than you (I’m 24; will be 25 early this fall). I’ve never had a boyfriend. Even though some people tell me that I’m pretty and even beautiful (often either complete strangers or family friends/people at church), I have a very hard time believing that either (a) they don’t have low standards for beauty or (b) they’re just being nice. Only creepy people ever approach me. I’m a size 8 (I’m between an 8/10 in pants; size 8 in everything else) and am medium height, which isn’t considered desirable. I do wear makeup and I dress a bit nicer than most girls that I know (as in I put a lot of effort into how I look; I don’t have a ton of money or anything, but I try to do the best with what I have). I hate jeans and I love wearing skirts, casual dresses, nicer dresses, and anything really feminine. I like having my hair done and I like to wear fragrances too. I feel unattractive, though, for the same reason that you mention: people only approach me because they think that I’m easy (which I’m not, nor do I dress that way, so I don’t really understand why a person would think that I’m easy because I do NOTHING to give that impression). People don’t hit on me because they really think that I’m beautiful or special; they do it because they just want any person that they can find to f*** them. Clean and decent people never give me the time of day. To be honest, I’m really not looking to be in a relationship or even to date; I never want to marry or have kids. However, I would like to be considered beautiful; it’s something that I’ve always wanted for myself and have never obtained. I’d also like to understand what’s wrong with me just so that I could at least have that mystery figured out.

    **

    Also, since age has been brought up here so often: I really don’t think that age really determines beauty. I know people my age who look awful and people older who look amazing. It all depends on what you do with what you have and how you take care of yourself. It also depends on whether beauty is something that matters to you or if you choose to let yourself go. You can be beautiful at any age. While one’s beauty might change as one ages, it simply evolves into something else; aging in and of itself doesn’t guarantee that you’ll be ugly or unappealing. Catherine Deneuve looks amazing at her age, and as far as I know, she hasn’t had work done. Cary Grant also aged pretty well. People who age gracefully are still appealing.

  • Emma

    @platero. I think i get how you feel, i have never had a legit boyfriend and often times i don’t feel pretty enough because i’m not getting enough attention from the guys i want attention from. It seems to me that deep down you have a core belief that you aren’t pretty enough and your so attached to it that you ignore evidence that contradicts it and pay attention to evidence that you ‘perceive’ makes it true. (i am not sure if this rings true for you but i just thought i’d throw it out there just in case it could give you some insight to yourself) According to your post you are definitely getting some evidence that you are pretty and even beautiful. But it’s not coming from the crowd that you want it to come from so that means it doesn’t count. Well it does actually! About getting hit on by those guys, I bet that you do not come off as an easy girl to guys because it sounds like you have a lot of bitterness against the guys who have hit on you and i bet that it shows through in your expression, attitude and your body language. That is probably why you are not getting the attention from the guys you want attention from, they are probably preferring to hit on girls who are giving them friendly vibes. The creepers that come after you only come after you because 1) they find you attractive and 2) they are creepy and desperate. Now this is not to say that you aren’t a cool person, i bet you are. You just might not be presenting yourself as your best through body language because of your bitterness and self-preoccupation with not being good enough. 90% of communication is body language. There are so many good looking, cool and great guys and girls out there who are not representing themselves very well so people don’t end up seeing these great qualities. For example, if there are two identical twins who are both equally gorgeous who do you think will be preferred the girl with the open, kind and enthusiastic disposition or the girl who is closed off and too afraid to show just how great she is? To wrap this up, it’s a confidence thing. So maybe focus on how you can let your great qualities (i’m sure you have a lot!) show and how you can change your body language into an open one which will welcome and invite attention from the right guys. I really hope this helps! :) and i hope my words weren’t too harsh or anything. And i also think it might be beneficial not to assume that all the guys that hit on you just want to get laid, you don’t know their intentions. On the other hand, its good to be a little cautious but try and give them a chance (even if the chance is just to have a conversation with you)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Hey pretty ones! Had you checked this dating site?
    http://www.beautifulpeople.com/
    Your beauty will probably not be an issue there. Hope you like it!

  • kate

    I’m really glad this article is posted. Every time that I’m sitting home on a Saturday night alone wondering why all of my friends are in relationships and yet I’m not, I turn to this and feel slightly better. It’s rough because when someone claims that they’re ugly, then the world cannot hear enough of it. But when someone admits to being attractive, then they’re immediately labelled as pompous, obnoxious and arrogant. People would rather you shut up and sit down then listen to you complain. But if you ask me, like everything in this world, there is a dark side to every situation. And attractiveness is no exception. And mind you, I’m the first to admit that I’m no Tyra Banks, but as an actress it is part of the job description to be “good looking”. Often times this is a perk, just as is intelligence, creativity, athleticism or any other genetic predisposition. I have gotten things for free, been complimented by random strangers and things like that. HOWEVER. I have also been followed, I have been sexually harassed by men on the street and have had a harder time making friends (male and female alike). With being an attractive female there comes this expectation that that is all you do. That if you look better than those around you, then you must be a diva or something. So yeah, the girl next to you in the jeans and t-shirt is probably going to get the actual conversation from the guys. Meanwhile you’ll just get the stares and side glances from across the room. It’s just frustrating. Just like every situation in life, being good looking does have its problems. And I’m not just whining. Additionally, while everyone avoids you because you’re attractive, there is also an insane pressure from the media and society (like we haven’t heard this before) to stay that way! Basically, you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @kate
      I sympathize, and know several women in the same boat. The ones who are happiest, least lonely are women who invest heavily in platonic friendships, making themselves extremely approachable. They’re non-competitive, and extremely loyal friends. Women remain wary and jealous, but some warm up to them, and some actually enjoy being friends with someone that gets so much attention. Guy friends want them, of course, but also understand that they’re in a different league, and over time they accept it.

      It’s hard if you’re not an extrovert, but it’s important to be open and friendly with strangers, and to take the initiative if you are attracted to someone. Any guy is going to need encouragement to approach. That’s why getting to know someone via work or an activity, class, friends of friends is good – you can establish rapport and the guy isn’t required to approach you as a stranger and risk a nuclear rejection.

  • Catherine

    Hi. I am pretty sure I was never a 10 but I was/am cursed with the huge breasts, and this is my experience. I’ve olny ended up with the sexually aggressive persistant guys. Ive never had anyone nice. Ive had envious female friends tell me they want a breast job to get the attention that I do, and I actually do everything I can to talk them out of it. Having a nice body gets you laid but it doesn’t get you love.

  • Jared

    I thoroughly enjoy your articles and their insights. After reading this article and the comments, I’ve noticed a few recurring themes.

    The most relevant is the disappointment of attractive women over men who like them for their looks, and only their looks. However, that is simply of consequence of humans being superficial. It is definitely not a privilege reserved for the attractive. The beautiful girl who was disappointed by the “frat star” mentioned that “I wish I could meet someone who wanted to get to know me, someone who would get me.” However, “curvy” women are frequently overlooked in favour of slimmer and more attractive women. Similarly, short men are commonly dismissed as simply “friends” and are rarely given the chance of create attraction with women enamored by tall men.

    While attractive people are approached by others due to their looks, unattractive people are rejected by others for their looks. Therefore, I fail to see why the impacts of superficial decisions are only felt by the attractive. At least attractive people get a chance (to get laid and potentially get to know each other). Unattractive people like me don’t have that chance. How can we talk to them if we can’t even get their number?

    In the comments, many people have touched on the topic that men tend to go after younger women. Further, that kind of behaviour is deemed repugnant by women who feel that they’re overlooked simply for their age. Yet, as a 20 year-old male attending college, throughout my life, I’ve seen women date older men. As a high school student, I’ve seen freshmen dating seniors. When I got to college, I saw the freshmen go after seniors or even graduate students. Where were the complainers when they were young? Can they honestly say they’ve never dated an older men?

  • Eaton Beiber

    “Men learn to love a woman they are attracted to…..women learn to find the one they love attractive”

    ===James Spader in “Sex, Lies, and Videotapes”

  • Perpetuallly Single

    Dear Susan,
    I’ve been hit on by very attractive movie stars, rock stars, TV stars, male models, strangers have come up to me and told me that I’m beautiful, but I’m always single. My more average looking friends are married or in relationships. I have a lot to offer, I’m intelligent (two degrees), speak several languages fluently, I’m well-rounded, well traveled, kind (I’ve rescued strangers and have done a lot of volunteer work), athletic and fit, I think guys are afraid of me, it makes me really sad. I’ve only had 2 long-term boyfriends (I’m in my 40s now), how long do I have to wait to meet someone serious? I remember going out with a few guys who actually told me that I intimidated them and made them nervous because of my looks. Now that I’m in my 40s I feel that I’m less desirable (on paper), I still look really young. My last boyfriend broke up with me because of my age, no other reason he claimed, I was such a good girlfriend to him-you have no idea. Two months after our breakup he accidentally got an average looking girl pregnant who barely spoke English and married her after they had a baby. I think the quote at the top of your web site describes the story of my life:

    If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

    Never make a pretty woman your wife

    So from my personal point of view

    Get an ugly girl to marry you

    Jimmy Soul, 1970

  • Gabe Asher

    Perpetually single. You know what the problem is. You’re doing a hat dance, yet stepping all over the hat. The problem is, no matter how beautiful you are, or think you are, you’re in your 40’s.
    …….
    Let me give you an example of how much more important youth is than “beauty”. Some friends and I posed this question to each other. “Would you rather date/marry a 17 year old who is a 5, or a 32 year old who is a 10?” All five of us agreed on the 17 year old 5.
    ……..
    You are spot on when you say you are less desireable these days. You only have to lower your standards to find love. The 35yo, thick haired, hedge fund manager is no longer within reach for you. Be realistic. We all have our chance at youth, and you obviously did. You even claim to have been the desire of rock stars etc. I am sure this was when you were much younger.
    ……..
    As men desire younger women, you will probably hook up with a guy in his late fifties, maybe a few grown children. The good part is he’s probably near retirement with a steady pension. Or, you could be doomed to a life of “cougardom”.

  • Gabe Asher

    @Perpetually single. Another point. Women can look younger to OTHER WOMEN. As men, we are genetically programmed to know how fertil a woman is (her age), regardless of fat transfers, brow lifts, chin implants, microdermabrasion etc.
    ……
    We, as men, will look at a woman who is 35, and think, wow, she looks good for 35. We will never think she LOOKS 25. Mother nature has kept our “age radar” way more advanced than any surgeons knife.
    ……
    Our main goal subconsciously, is to reproduce, thats it. That’s why we don’t care about your travels, your degrees, etc. We care about whether or not you can make healthy babies. Thats that.
    ….
    Sorry for the brutalnesss of the last two posts, but I feel this forum is too help one another and be honest. We help no one by sugar coating responses. It’s good to have honest opinions from the opposite sex.

  • Perpetually Single

    Dear Gabe,
    Thanks for your response. I’m curious as to how old you are, from your survey among your friends I’m thinking late teens, maybe early 20s? I still get hit on by famous guys (they’re pretty confident/cocky), I don’t have wrinkles (naturally, genetics from my dad), and I do get hit on and checked out, mostly by guys in their early 20s (they’re the ones who are out and about at the lounges, etc.)-but I don’t want to date young guys-I want someone within my age range (5 yrs.+/-). 6 years ago, I was accepting dates with men in their early 20s, but like I said, they were really intimidated on our dates, it felt uncomfortable, so I stopped-see my dilemma. When I was 25 I looked 13, now I look 29, 30 at the most. My most recent ex-boyfriend was 11 years my junior and thought we were the same age. I know men are subconsciously programmed to reproduce, but not all men or women want children. And women can and are still having healthy babies well into their mid-late 40s. I somewhat disagree with you about men preferring a really young plain Jane, there have been several studies that show men prefer to date an older more beautiful woman and “risk” not having children over the homely looking younger one. Here’s a recent one conducted in England:

    “He and a colleague took a photo of a 36-year-old woman who was very attractive in the eyes of a group of men. They showed the picture to three other groups in their early 20s along with pictures of eight women aged 20-45 who’d been rated less attractive.

    The researchers told the group the beautiful woman was either 36, 41 or 45 years old. When asked who they’d prefer as a long-term partner, all three groups of men chose her, regardless of how old they thought she was.

    Men Not Considering Offspring

    Dr. Fieldman concludes the study shows beauty counts. He says men are not so concerned with the number of offspring they can have. They are more prone to choose a beautiful woman, regardless of her age, if it means increasing the chances their offspring will have a better chance in life later on.

    Many people think that men would always go for the 20-year-olds, but they don’t, he said.

    “If you think of the kind of women that men on a building site may whistle at, they tend to whistle at beautiful women, he told the BBC. “They don’t whistle at a perfectly healthy and fecund 20-year-old.”

    “The younger, plainer women will give them more children, but the fact that they’re going for the “aging beauty” is indicative that beauty is more important at some level.”

    And I’m not a cougar, I don’t go around hitting on younger men. I appreciate your honest response though. But I do think the most attractive women have a harder time meeting eligible (quality) men because the men are intimidated, they look, but are afraid to approach, many don’t want other men trying to steal their girlfriends because they are pretty, so the prettier women may end up single.

  • Gabe Asher

    We are all in our 30’s. Our survey among us assumed we would date/marry the woman. I agree, many men (maybe even some in our group) would choose the beautiful 32 year old over the average 17 if it meant one or two nights of sex only.
    …..
    Many men choose the older, pretty woman as this is instant sexual gratification. When you give men some time to consider who will make a better long term choice, the choice becomes clearer. I call it the “Rob Lowe” syndrome. He married in his 20’s to a woman of his age. Now they are both 47 and look ridiculous together as he has aged like wine. Her, not so much.
    ….
    Men can be intimidated by a pretty woman only because he knows by experience that the chances of rejection are higher if he approaches her. But I don’t think in the long run, she is approached LESS. If you take two thirty year old women, one a 9, and one is a 5, for example. I am sure in her life, the 9 has been approached more.
    …..
    Another point. Men that don’t want babies still find the women who can have healthy babies attractive. Not wanting babies is a conscious thought. BUT, he is still subconsciously attracted to women who can have the best chances at a baby/healthy baby. Why do men like women with good skin and say, big boobs? Good/glowing wrinkle free skin is a sign of youth(fertil). Big boobs appear to have milk for our offspring.

    Youtube “science of sex appeal”. Cool stuff, I agree with most of it, you probably will too!!

    As for men “cat calling” at women. This is typically directed at women who are dressed sexy, regardless of age.

  • Jennifer

    I’d say beauty is a mixed bag, Susan. A great book on this, or a similar subject, is called “The Secret Life of it Girls”. Very good.

    Another great and soulful (and funny!) post.

  • Rachel

    Dear Susan,
    I would like to thank you for this article because this is not something that is easy to discuss. I’ve only ever talked to my family about is pluses and minuses of being attractive since I know it sounds ungrateful to most people. Of course there are benefits, but in this post, I’m sharing some of challenges. I completely identify with much of what you wrote and especially the video. I do walk around every day with men stopping to look, acting completely tongue-tied or leering at me. When I go out, I have to decide how much attention I want from men. I get less in gym sweats and a lot more in a nice dress, but my clothing only makes a slight difference in the attention. I’m incredibly sensitive to other people’s emotions so I know when men are looking and can almost feel it on me. I’m 24 and am just coming to terms with the fact that I will be noticed for a large portion of my life. It’s kind of ridiculous, but one of the few things I like about winter is wearing my coat with a huge hood. I can put that on and suddenly no one pays any attention to me. I also identify with the video and having to deal with jealous women (even wives). I have developed a strategy for meeting new people: first I talk to the women and give them a sense of my personality (friendly, open and humble), only then will I get to know the men. This is particularly important with girlfriends or wives, where I make sure to maintain an equal amount of attention to each group. I’ve gotten awful stares and rude behavior from other women when I get to know the men first.
    It’s also true that the men who approach me usually have huge egos and generally care nothing about my personality. After a couple of disasters, I figured out how to rebuff these men, but it takes a lot of energy. Ultimately the men I want to date will not walk up and ask for my number, I have to offer a lot of encouragement (but it works!).
    Again, I’m in no way suggesting that I would like to change my appearance, but I just wanted to share my experiences.
    Thank you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rachel
      Thanks for sharing your experiences. I know it’s a real issue and our culture rewards beauty, but only at a very superficial level. I wonder what kind of encouragement you offer to guys that seems effective. How do you let guys know that you are interested? Have you ever been turned down by someone? Do you find that guys don’t feel secure enough that they can hold onto you? I ask because these are the questions I get from other readers.

      Thanks again, and stop by the more current posts!

  • Jess

    Rachel,
    I can emphasise. I dress casually as I’m most comfy like that.
    If I put a dress on to go out, the difference is so stark and often intimidating.
    .
    I’m in my 40s, no starlet like bosom whatsoever. It seems to be legs. It does something to guys. Wear a jumper and jeans, totally and completely invisible.
    .
    When I was younger, especially at work, I got some grief from threatened women. It’s so sad that society drives us to that. Once i remember a colleague, whilst a bit drunk, say she thought I was stuck up and only hung around with the pretty girls. This wasn’t at school by the way, we were adults! I pointed out to her that whenever I had tried to engage her she had been pretty hostile. She then said fair enough and that I was alright after all!
    .
    in terms of indicating your attraction to a guy I say go for it. Drop the heaviest hints you like. Life is too short.
    .
    As for guys that don’t get the message. Get up and remove yourself from the situation or if that’s not possible simply say, look I’m sure you are nice but I’m not attracted to you and I’d appreciate some privacy.
    .
    Never give mixed messages or accept drinks or indulge in flirty talk. It never goes well when trying to be kind or considerate in a rejection situation.
    .
    You will find that unwanted male attention will lower at 30, it takes the pressure off. One of the benefits of age actually.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ” I do walk around every day with men stopping to look, acting completely tongue-tied or leering at me.”

    This is something I’ve come to believe, that attractive women gets lots of _attention_, but don’t get that many honest to God approaches – guys having real high-game conversations with them without drooling. It’s almost a niche market to be honest.

    I have a half-French friend who is something of a player, and he says it blows hot women’s minds when he walks up to them and actually talks to them without giving off any signal he’s noticed their beauty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is something I’ve come to believe, that attractive women gets lots of _attention_, but don’t get that many honest to God approaches

      Yes, and a lot of those women hate that feeling of being watched everywhere they go. They go for a run, and men slow down and stare as they drive by. Guys with girlfriends stare. Waiters get tongue-tied. I think they learn to tune it out – they have virtual blinders on and remain blissfully unaware (as much as they can) of being stared at.

  • Rachel

    Thank you Susan and Jess! Jess, I appreciate your insight – I’ve been hoping to get some suggestions and hints! I’m a visual person so I like wearing colors and clothes that I think look nice, but I tend to feel safer when I’m wearing workout clothing. There are a couple things I do for encouragement:

    – I make an effort to get to know the guy. I will purposely sit by him and ask about his life, interests, etc. I actually do more listening than talking. If I know nothing about his job, I’ll ask him to explain it in detail. On the other hand, if I have a similar experience, I will relate that to him. With a shy man, I’m prepared for awkward silences and usually fill those in with more questions or my experiences. Once the conversation starts, a guy will usually be able to hold up his end. Being friendly and open goes a long way. If it’s been 20 minutes and it still feels like I’m carrying the entire conversation, I will try someone else.

    – I ask the guy out for coffee, a walk or some other relaxed activity. I choose something that I would do with any friend. If that goes well, I’ll expect the guy to make the next move.

    – If he has asked me on the first date, then I will offer an idea for the next meeting.

    I’ve been rejected several times: a couple times the guys just stopped calling, another time the guy told me that I wasn’t moving quickly enough (re: he wanted to sleep with me before I was ready). It’s disappointing and takes a few days before I eventually accept that it’s probably the best thing anyway. I usually don’t try to connect with men who I feel aren’t interested in me.

    In my relationships, I rate trust as one of the highest priorities. I trust them not to go after other women and hopefully they trust me not to act on attention from other men. I have told boyfriends that I’m only interested in them (I had one at a time). That said, I did make a mistake that I just had to live with: my boyfriend at the time and I both danced tango, but we were beginners. I swear the context made sense, but I told him that I preferred to dance with more experienced dancers. Not the smartest comment and I sensed he was less secure at Tango after that, but I always went home with him.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    I always go back and forth on this issue. I have to It’s hard for me to summon a whole lot of sympathy for hot chicks, because until they’re over 30, they’ll never know what a typical man’s life is like, to be all but invisible to the opposite sex. They really do live a charmed life compared to their homelier counterparts, and if the price is to have some people look at you as an “object,” that doesn’t sound like that bad of a trade.

    On a related note, a key piece of seduction is deflecting a woman’s beauty – this is why classic PUA lines are among the lines of “it sounds like there is more to you than your looks” or “you are not just attractive, you are also interesting.” Letting her know that you know it’s there, but you are noticing other things as well. Feeding her snowflake engine: people notice her body all the time, but you frame yourself as the only guy who understands what’s underneath.

  • Esau

    Badger:

    “he walks up to them and actually talks to them without giving off any signal he’s noticed their beauty.”

    As though the very act of walking up, from out of the blue and talking to a beautiful woman is not in itself a signal that he’s noticed her beauty? Who’s actually being fooled by his pretending not to notice? Him? her? the guy watching from across the street? Really, this completely baffles me.

    I see that you’ve gone further in the next comment:

    …deflecting a woman’s beauty – this is why classic PUA lines are among the lines of “it sounds like there is more to you than your looks” or “you are not just attractive, you are also interesting.”

    Seriously! who could possibly fall for this??! Perhaps the answer is to be found in Dilbert, who said “Don’t make a better product, just find stupider customers.”

  • Jugo Juice

    “Feeding her snowflake engine: people notice her body all the time, but you frame yourself as the only guy who understands what’s underneath.”

    @ Badger

    How can I be credible in stating that when it’s the first time we’ve met? No, I’m not a psychoanalyst. Can women actually fall for that?

  • Jugo Juice

    Another point. Men that don’t want babies still find the women who can have healthy babies attractive. Not wanting babies is a conscious thought. BUT, he is still subconsciously attracted to women who can have the best chances at a baby/healthy baby. Why do men like women with good skin and say, big boobs? Good/glowing wrinkle free skin is a sign of youth(fertil). Big boobs appear to have milk for our offspring.

    @ Rachel,

    I don’t get your point. Men who don’t have babies still want to have sex. :S

  • Rachel

    @ Jugo Juice. I did not write that comment, but I’m not sure why you do not understand Gabe Asher’s point. Of course having children doesn’t change a man’s sex drive. In my view, the point is that from an evolutionary standpoint, a male would choose a female best able to create strong offspring. Therefore, while our culture does not overtly address that issue, it is still an underlying factor. This goes both ways because women are most attracted to healthy, strong men.

  • Gabe Asher

    @Rachel “I’m 24 and am just coming to terms with the fact that I will be noticed for a large portion of my life” Please Rachel, do not get hung up on that thought, or you will become bitter as the wrinkles set in, the neck hangs a little etc. At 24, you are already past the most attention you will get from men. It will be less everyday from here going forward. Take comfort in knowing that.
    …….
    Any woman can look in her closet and decide how much attention she wants based on what she wears. Women who dress to kill want attention, albeit attention from select men. Unfortunately, they can’t be selective in that regard. It’s all or none.
    …….
    They ONLY thing that drives people to look their best is to get attention from the opposite sex. Don’t believe me? Be honest with yourself when you answer the following question. If you were exiled to the North Pole where you were guaranteed to never see another person, or a mirror, for the rest of your life; would you put on makeup, and concern yourself with your wardrobe???

    “If the person is attractive, it’s flirting. If they are ugly, it’s sexual harrasment”

  • Jess

    Gabe,
    Oh contare, some women dress up when that are meeting female friends or even when staying in by themselves.
    .
    You are right much of the time but sometimes women really do dress for themselves.
    I’m not one of them…just sayin..
    .
    Flirtation is a mutual exchange of suggestive or romantic gestures or lines.
    Harrasment is the continued escalation of clearly unwanted sexual advances.

  • Abbot

    Flirtation is a mutual exchange of suggestive or romantic gestures or lines.
    .
    That, due to the infinite wisdom of flirtatious women, is never targeted at potential harassers aka creeps, unattractive men, etc.

  • http://yahoo.com Kenny Fabritius

    You HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!?! Pretty people have it hard? Oh and pretty people are upset for being stereotyped as being dumb? So what? They have relationships ALL the time! They are handed things left and right. They HAVE the power to manipulate people and command respect. Men who are under 5’8″, women who are fat, or just plain ugly people stand nearly NO chance to find someone and being happy because this culture and society CONTINUALLY bombards us with images of ‘PERFECTION’ and the message if you don’t live up to that perfection you’re worthless and had better do something to fix it. This is a god damn JOKE. The people who created that documentary and this blog post are doing society a SERIOUS DISSERVICE! Who cares about pretty people’s problems? If anything they cause their own for demanding people who associate with them or approach them for dates and relationships be as good or better looking than they. Seriously, ANYONE who buys into this BS should be shot. LIFE ISN’T FARE, but it’s a HELL of a lot more fair to pretty people, and yet they still bitch and moan. Beautiful people don’t really have problems. GET OVER IT!

  • http://yahoo.com Kenny Fabritius

    SERIOUSLY!

  • trina

    I never get free stuff.. WHAT THE FUCK! haha joking. but seriously its annoying .. well just saying that you kinda feel shitty when you’re the only one out with your friends that doesn’t get approached and offered a drink. I do get approached occasionally when out but rarely I find most guys talking to me or approaching me with a friend or just by chance, I am approached in very different ways than my friends are.. I go out most nights sober i dont know if this effects anything but i clearly remember each occasion. Another thing that has came to my attention recently is that I’ve been told by my friends as well as some strangers when out that i often look angry or unapproachable I dont know why.. i just have a neutral face no certain expression but my friends do believe this is why most men wont talk to me and I’m starting to believe this as well, I just dont get how I can look unapproachable. its also abit unfortunate that I am taller than most guys too :@

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @trina
      If you want to be approached, smiling is essential. Think about the risk of rejection – if someone looks like they might take your head off, no way are you going to introduce yourself.

  • Jess

    Trina,
    I say go further even than Susan.
    Go up to a guy and ask him something. Anything. Don’t wear a watch. You got the time? Fancy a game of pool. Fancy a drink? You have the same phone as me, could you show me xyz? Keep it light see how it goes.
    .
    And don’t be surprised if they seem cold…they might be Tongue tied.. They will warm up…
    .

  • Jess

    Kenny,
    I do get you. Wow my gold crown is so heavy… Poor me etc.
    .
    But, attractive people didn’t control how they were born either and can’t help peoples reactions to them.
    .
    I was pretty cute when younger, but I was in a very monogamous relationship for 12 years. I didn’t want anyone else and any attention I got I found intimidating, tiresome, embarrassing, repetitive. Grass is always greener… And I never manipulated anyone or got free stuff.
    .
    I had some properly stunning friends and their lives were severely effected by their beauty.
    .
    Now that I’m older and still very slim I sometimes get a comment from another larger girl about my luck with my figure. But they don’t know that I despised my body when I was younger. They also don’t know that I have early stage arthritis and like my mum I’m in for some serious pain and medication for the rest of my life. You wanna swap your fat tummy with my flat tummy and arthritic pain? I’d swap in a heartbeat…
    .
    Life is not always as it seems. Being handsome of pretty or tall doesn’t make you immune from depression.
    .
    Anyway hotness for girls is maybe 18-32 so 14 years?
    .
    Most women live till 80 now….is a life defined by just 14 years?

  • BSD

    I really question how long a woman is attractive. I mean, I’m not saying postpone marriage, or that a 50 year old is as hot as an 19 year old.

    But…I don’t know. Whenever I go out with my mom to run errands we get hit on. It’s pretty hilarious. yesterday someone asked us if we were sisters.

    And she sits and mopes that she’s aging and ugly. Yet I think most women her age would kill to still be slim and adorable. She’s not as beautiful as she was at 20, but she’s still pretty, and she’s reminded of being pretty all the time but it’s like it doesn’t stick. :(

    But you’re right Jess that health is more important than youth. My mom’s in a lot of pain too. :( I hope you don’t get anything too bad and don’t have pain.

  • BSD

    Is it bad if I pretty much identify with everything in the video? I’ve had guys pretend to be gay as a strategy to try to hookup. Seriously. And I don’t consider myself that attractive. I’m definitely not a 9 or a 10, and if I’m an 8 it’s because someone likes something very specific about me, like a big butt on an otherwise small frame, and there’s no way 99.999% of guys would even put me close to up there, I’m probably like a 6. Like I’m definitely not up there but I agree with the video and I’ve gotten a lot of free stuff, not on dates but all places without even thinking about it really, and I’m starting to wonder if maybe people just have low standards, or maybe I am a bit more attractive than I think I am, and I’ve had girls tell me in college they thought I would never talk to them, because I was “the pretty girl.” My head’s swirling.

  • Jess

    Bsd,
    Thanks. I think medical treatment has improved a lot in the last 15 years so I’m hoping it won’t be as bad as what mum had but My consultant has warned me it’s still a bitch of a condition. I’m ok with it. I’ve kinda always thought I was gonna get it, I’m so like my mum physically.
    .
    Free stuff? How did you get free stuff? I have always refused drinks from guys as a matter of principle…

  • Lou Briccant

    AP is reporting that the world’s oldest attractive woman just turned 36 today.

  • http://habeshagirl75@gmail.com Anonymous

    A woman will be attractive to men well into her thirties and sometimes into her fourties if she keeps herself up. I don’t buy into this belief that men instinctively know a woman’s fertility. I can honestly say I get more attention now in my thirties than I ever did in my early twenties. I’m a lot more confident now, I have better fashion sense, etc. Being a workout freak, I’ve been able to keep my shape. No one ever guesses I’m past 25 or 26. With all that said though,I believe that there can be a huge disconnect berween how young a woman looks and how fertile she is. You can fool people all you want by keeping yourself young looking (also genes help), but you can’t fool biology. I’m learning that the hard way. It’s just so sad because you think you have all the time in the world because you look so good on the outside but more than likely your reproductive organs are aging at the rate they are meant to. Cruel joke by the universe I feel. Keep that in mind young women.

  • dave L

    susan — very well written article and i agree with what your saying! There was a model once called veronica zemanova , absolutely stunning in every way. Quite literally in her prime she probably defined a 10 out 10 woman for looks. She was from the Czech Republic and due to her up bringing not only was she beautiful, but she was also beautiful on the inside – kind, caring, polite, friendly, funny. But obviously because of her looks men just wanted her body (and also you got the impression she didnt even like the nude modelling,just did it for money).
    Eventually tho she married. And i dont mean to sound harsh, but i couldnt believe it, you could call her husband ugly. Not even average looking. He was ugly. But the point is… he made her happy. You could see even the look in her eye in her photos that the sparkle was clearly there. He seemed kind, consideratre and caring. So ok.. hes not a brad pitt look a like.. but he still made her happy. And i think in todays world some women fail to see this also – Looks are not everything!! And that it is more about your long term happiness. I could date Miss World, eventually how pretty she is will wear off and then it comes down to what she is like as a person.

    Reading some of the commens above also i think some woman could do with taking a leaf out of veronica zemanovas book. wommen are saying how they like certain men but dont fancy them. And other men treat them like ass holes. Well why dont you fancy the men you get along with?
    I also agree that approaching women is a 2 way thing also if women arent going to show they are approahable.. then im not going to approach them!
    Finally I do find in society that the pretty women are ‘taken’ the vast majority of the time. Speaking to my friend at work, he said at Uni that pretty much all the pretty girls had boyfriends. But that just makes me think are people in relationships just for the sake of it, just so they can ‘bag themselves’ a pretty girlfriend. But again,as with the point earlier, i think generally those relationships will be doomed sooner or later.. because its not about what theyre like as a person, its just that theyre pretty. And i still think even then, there will be attractive women that are single

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @daveL
      Thanks so much for leaving a comment, I think you ask the million dollar question – Why don’t you fancy the men you get along with? That question has a complicated answer, I write about it a lot. Do check current posts, and check out the comment sections there. We have a very lively group that debates!

  • http://www.yahoo.co.uk dave L

    oh also i would like to add, for women who wonder why they dont get approached.

    Imyself have gone through a bad patch in life, and pulling or dating women was the last thing on my mind. However, im now through that and getting back to normal. I havent dated for a while and honestly started to feel like ive ‘lost it’. When i was 15 or so, i used to be really good at meeting women, and just going from there. I was thinking to myself.. “what was it i used to do, that i dont do now? ” even to the point of thinking maybe it was just being young and you grow up.

    Anyway.. I think i remember the other day. What i used to do was go ‘looking’ for the woman. And by this (with the risk of sounding like a stalker lol) i would go around a club and basically just judge which women wouldnt mind being approached.
    A womans attractiveness , in my opinion, would not affect how approachable they are. But what would affect it is.. for example.. 2 women were dancing on a dance floor.. but they were dancing reallyover the top, like doing massive dance moves and so on. These woman -> not approachable! Because theyre clearly just on a night out havnig fun. Where as i saw one woman just standing on her own at the side. This for me is perfect, she IS approachable. On her own, no boyfriend from what i can see, not dancing.. so go for it, ask why shes on her own, if shes having a good night etc and take it frmo there. You can tell from their reaction whether theres rapport or not. And from what i remember.. i didnt do it to ‘get laid’ or to ‘brag’ .. it was probably more just for fun. A challenge. And, if i liked the girl who knows you could end up dating.
    ALso being in a group does not mean you are un approachable. Even a grup of 6 women you may find 1 or 2 women in there who are actually lonely and may want a man to speak to them! (but anyway, im probably one of only a handful of men that thinks in this way lol) But like wise ive also seen a group of 4-5 women doing dance moves where they go down to the floor with one arm in the air -> un approachable – dont waste your time on these women. or women already with men. If youre not interested in them men around you get ridof them – im not going to approach a woman that has 4 men with her!

    I do feel sorry for women tho,especially very pretty women. I can honestly honestly say i have never hit on women as described in the article and by womens comments here. my friend said about it how men started emailing, or texting or whatever .. and ive just never done it myself (i can assure you, i WOULD be one of those men you can speak to normally, without everything being about sex. What i described above is only when im in a night club, looking for the challenge)
    I mean, how annying must it be for a woman to want to do something basic like go to ther shops and get hit on. Or go out for a drink with a friend. Maybe as men we take this for granted. The only instance i saw this was when i went to turkey, men in the 50s perving on 14-15 yr olds. Bar men telling the women they are ‘the most beautiful they have ever seen’ and sadly it worked ona lot of them as well.
    What if a woman was married, absolutely loves her husband and doesnt want a man hitting on her – let alone every 10 minutes of the day. It must be sooo annoying that you must just wanna tell the men to F off…

  • jess

    dave L,
    .
    some good points. I have dated the odd guy, that wasn’t the least bit conventionally attractive but that I was really into. And it wasn’t just companionship, they were very physical relationships. I have found external looks kind of fade in ones mind when you spend time with someone.
    .
    But I did notice that some of my female friends frowned upon it as ‘I could do better’ and guys hit on me left right and centre thinking that I must be desperate to leave my boyfriends due to their looks. It wasn’t like it was super serious LTRs but it was till disrespectful. Sometimes even the friends of the guy I was dating would try it on- literally if he want to the bar or toilet a half drunk ‘good friend’ would start up- real nice.
    .
    I can certainly confirm that really stunning girls, a few of which I have known as friends, are under almost constant monitoring, resentment or pestering. I have never felt the least bit jealous (well kinda but not really- its a blessing and curse that can really ruin your quality of life)

  • Sassy6519

    I just sat down and re-read through all the comments on this thread. A few thoughts came to my mind.

    1. Some of the men on this site were so ready to let women know about their value slipping in beauty with age in comparison to younger women (which is true in certain aspects), yet I think there would have been an extremely large outcry from them if women had been just as blunt in saying that we don’t like dating and aren’t as attracted to men without money. We want financially stable/well off men because, in the words of the men here, they represent the best chance to raise healthy offspring. I’ll say it now; I’m attracted to men with money. I’m not a money-hungry gold-digger; I’m just following evolutionary instincts. Let a woman say that to most men, and they don’t want to hear it.

    2. Some men have stated that pretty women should lower their standards when it comes to finding a mate, but that is in stark contrast to what they have been exclaiming the entire post. If BOTH genders’ main obligation during their lifetime is to successfully reproduce, BOTH people need to contribute the best genes possible in the equation. If men want to hold women to such high expectations in gene contribution, women should hold men to those same standards. If a woman is attractive, I think she should find a guy who is her EQUAL in that department. Failing to do so from the beginning may explain why so much female cheating/cuckolding exists in the first place. The women are also driven by primitive instinct, just like the men on this post claim they themselves are, and want the highest quality sperm possible for future offspring.

    I guess my conclusion from all this is that, in order to be successful in the dating/mating world, BOTH GENDERS NEED TO STEP UP THEIR GAME.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Sassy,

    “If men want to hold women to such high expectations in gene contribution, women should hold men to those same standards.”

    I’m sorry to say that this statement doesn’t comport with reality. Women love to complain about “male standards for beauty” which are really female standards for beauty pushed through the fashion and magazine industries (marketed to women, not to men). But men’s standards for attraction are significantly lower than women’s. A typical man is attracted to FAR more women than a typical woman is attracted to a spread of men.

    Sure, hotter is better, if a guy can get it, but the minimum bar for attraction for a man to consider a relationship is MUCH lower than for a woman of approximately equal market value.

    There’s an oft-discussed principle in these parts called the 80:20 rule, which in one of its many incarnations posits that 80% of women are primarily attracted to 20% of guys. In addition, female attraction to men appears to have a large component based on scarcity and social status and not on absolute measures of attractiveness like height or physical condition.

    The upshot of these facts is that the number of really attractive men is and will always be very small, meaning not that many women have a good shot at finding a man of “equal” attractiveness. (This is why almost any system of “open sexuality” fundamentally favors women, because it allows more women to get genes from fewer men. Monogamous systems favor women in terms of spreading resources around, but at the price of getting beta genes.)

    Frankly, I think this whole “pretty girls have it harder” thing is a bunch of entitled whining. It’s like complaining that because you won the lottery solicitors come to your door – a high-quality problem to have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Frankly, I think this whole “pretty girls have it harder” thing is a bunch of entitled whining. It’s like complaining that because you won the lottery solicitors come to your door – a high-quality problem to have.

      :-P
      No it’s not a high quality problem to have if you’re looking to save those winnings and build something real with them. Or help out your family. Or invest conservatively as a legacy for your children. Meanwhile, your doorbell rings 10 times a day, and when you answer it some bum shouts, “Hey lady, gimme some money!”

  • Lou Briccant

    An interesting addition to your site, Susan, would be the ability to post pics. I would bet my last dollar that the 30 and 40 something women who claim to be intimidating to men because of their looks, are simply not as desireable anymore because of age. I don’t say this to be cruel. As many home sellers wish this wasn’t the case these days, the buyers set value, NOT SELLERS!
    ….
    I knew an attractive woman who was always without a man. She used to complain that “men these days are INTIMIDATED by a strong, independent, career-minded woman”. We are not. Although we are not attracted to them. Any guys out there attracted to Hillary Clinton (even when she was much younger and fairly attractive)???? Thought so.

  • jess

    kinda disagree with both badger and sassy on this
    .
    sassy,
    whilst i agree men DO judge women and comment constantly on girls looks and then have the audacity to get uppity when women do the same to them, I would say that women are more forgiving on looks generally.
    .
    Also attractive features are likely the result of both dominant and recessive genes and therefore do not guarantee certain features in offspring.
    .
    I think women are often more fluid in what they find attractive. I have been attracted to less handsome guys in the past and also when i have dated really handsome guys, i found the effect of their strong jaw or whatever kind of wore off. personality however can be an enduring and age proof attraction.

  • jess

    badger,
    .
    i think the 80/20 rule is BS,
    .
    things are much rosier than you think
    .
    i suspect women are quite diverse in their attractions to guys

  • http://www.yahoo.co.uk Dave L

    Hi all again.

    Ok. Im gona try and sum up the points i think without babbling on too much!!

    1) – a man with lots of money – a man with lots of money wil probably be able to date a lot of women, regardless of looks. An average looking rich man will probably have a lot of women. As others have said, its a womans instinct to look for someone that can provide. If someone is a multi millionaire, then they can provide very well for children!

    But equally, if i was a multi millionaire, no matter how hot my woman was i would just be thinking i can have many other women so why settle down?

    2) – these women that complain about being single and unhappy in their 30s and 40s – i do personally think it is partly their own cause. There are many men out there wh o are ok looking, with reasonable jobs, who are nice people. Why not date these men?

    3) i was watching a tv programme the other day and a woman was saying how ‘no men here are her type’. This makes me laugh also. My type would probably be petite with dark looks. But if a blonde woman who was 5ft 10 ccame up to me tomorrow and asked me on a date – am i going to reply “sorry, your not my type!” – of course not! Because i would be happy to date all sorts… so maybe having a ‘type’ is also shooting yourself in the foot and restricting yourself.

    Jess – i do think that is very harsh of your friends. I mean judging a man b ecause hes not good looking. What if hes an incrdibly nice person and funny, witty, generous etc.. and all theyre doing is judging him on his looks, something he cant really change. What if.. he used to be good looking and .. lets say he was in a car crash that disfigured his face – is it fair to judge him on that? But i think you have the right out look :)

    Personally i find women that are ok looking, not stunning, just ok – but have great personalities i am very drawn to and would happily date. Like wise i have met women that are attractive but literally all they went on about were their hair extensions, how they look and anything else thats looks related. – who would i rather go on a night out with? Lets be honest

    Finally ill say again – i do feel sorry for some extremely attractive women tho. Like just say you have a long term boyfriend / husband and are not interested in other men – it must get sooo furstrating to contantly have men hit on you. and when your minding your own business doing something and you cant because someone cant wait to speak to you

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Feel sorry for beautiful people? SERIOUSLY!?! LOL! So they get everything handed to them, everyone wants them or wants to be them, they are able to and HAVE broken many stereotypes of being dumb or less intelligent because let’s face it people are more apt to believe a beautiful person and movies have made a point to portray successful and intelligent and desirable people as beautiful the past decade… NOW they want our tears? They want us to feel it’s oh so difficult for them? Don’t they get enough out of life? They get the better paying jobs, more opportunities for romance and breeding and idolized all the time now they want to be pitied? GIVE ME A BREAK! If you’re so sick of being objectified maybe accept a date from a not so handsome guy, or a short guy, or a nerdy sometime. It’ll project the notion to others that looks aren’t important to you and you value someone for more than their exterior and that you expect to be treated the same. But I find the possibility of that to be VERY UNLIKELY. And if my post is censored or removed it just goes to show you a beautiful person is probably running this forum.

    LOL! Ridiculous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kenny
      Rest assured your post will be neither censored nor removed.

      If you’re so sick of being objectified maybe accept a date from a not so handsome guy, or a short guy, or a nerdy sometime

      How can she do that if none of those particular guys would dare approach her?

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    To Jesse:
    You may be an open minded woman having dated men less attractive than you but you are an exception to the rule. With all the horror, terror, manipulation of people and loss of genuine character in this world due to the media and other aspects HOW DARE YOU have the audacity to side with beautiful people, women and men alike. Just because you are genuine DOES NOT mean that the world is made of relatively good people. To make a generalization that women are more forgiving about looks is a grossly false and foolishly idealistic sentiment. The Majority of BOTH beautiful women and beautiful men are vain and spiteful… we should now be feeling sorry for them that they aren’t getting as much ass as they desire or that some people snidely joke that ‘to be beautiful is to be dumb’. Who cares!?! They’re still beautiful and they still get basically whatever they want. They probably wouldn’t even want to be friends with the people making the snide remarks about them, they just find it audacious that they are the subject of criticism… but they’re beautiful. Who ever would think anything less than perfection of them.

    Anyone who sides with moping beautiful people really are ignorant and buying into the BS shoved down all our throats by the media.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Why do those types of men need to approach her. Even though it was before I was born I seem to recall a small paradigm shift in societal thinking called the women’s liberation movement. Why can not an extremely attractive girl approach a coy guy. Since all this pouting over being objectified has led her to believe most good looking guys or guys in general approaching her are only after her tits and ass then maybe she should take the initiative. Of course this would take away from her feeling feminine as the one pursing, correct?

    What it really boils down to is beautiful women, and beautiful people in general want their cake and to eat it too. They want to have a gorgeous mate that is idealistic according to hollywood and media standards and they want to be worshiped. But they also want to be seen as normal and real.

    I am a fairly attractive guy but the one thing that makes me unattractive to 90% of women is plain and simple. I’m 5’5″. I strike out with women left and right and I only ever complain when it is to point out such hypocrisy such as this load of BS. Try being rejected left and right pretty girl. Try having your manhood and worth as a human being be questioned on a regular basis. Try being accused of overcompensating when you are ambitious and trying to achieve something of value in your life.

    These pretty girls and pretty people are just selfish. They see the whole world complaining that they can’ be half as good or desirable as the pretty ones and figure: ‘hey, everyone gets to complain, I get everything I want so I should be able to complain!’ Pretty people are the spoiled brat who acts like little Timmy’s birthday party is actually theirs. AND YOU ALL ARE MAKING IT WORSE BY BUYING INTO IT!

    If I seem like an angry little man I have good reason Susan. Because I’ve given pretty girls the benefit of the doubt and approached them based on common interests or humor and all it got me was their head on my shoulder as they bitched about all the great looking guys screwing them over left and right. As soon as I made a move I’d get slapped in the face with: ‘You’re everything I’m looking for but oh but you’re too good a friend’ or ‘It’d just be weird , you’re only this tall’. And half those girls who said that were still shorter then me with heels on. So I have NO SYMPATHY for the moronic and selfish pretty girls and pretty people complaining. Anyone with a third of a brain would agree with me and tell them off!

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Lastly

    To ‘NOT PRETTY REALLY’

    QUOTE: “They don’t understand that men just want to screw me and I think I’m really ugly because I can’t find someone who really likes me for me and wants to be with me.”

    I highly doubt no one wants to be with you. They may want to ‘screw you’ as you put it but I highly doubt they ‘just’ want that. I’d wager money you’ve rejected far more men for frivolous imperfections than you’ve been used yourself. What man in his right mind would hook up only once or twice with a gorgeous woman and then dump her? Further more, if you call them out on being used as a booty-call what man in his right mind would not jump at the chance of committing and staying faithful to a gorgeous woman if only to ensure he keeps getting that ass on a regular basis.

    So ‘NOT PRETTY, REALLY’ I find you plight hard to believe and am almost certain you’ve created your own problems and have rejected far many a man who is good for you but doesn’t meet your equally shallow standards.

    The door swings both ways honey.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    To Jess:

    QUOTE: “Thev bitterness I see from girls is due to men cheating or being lied to.
    Plenty of women have fun young and settle later in life, just like a billion men before them.
    Please dimiss the comments of Marc and Kurt. Its not 1940.”

    UGH! Um no Jess you’re dead wrong. I may be only 25 but being a writer and and artist you pick up on people’s habits and mannerisms. Marc and Kurt are absolutely right. I have seen marriages fall apart because the ‘hot-chick’ settled for the ‘geek’ or ‘dweeb’ in marriage after putting on so many miles with the bad boys who treated her like dirt. The one day she runs into an old bad-boy boyfriend and gets thinking and talking.

    “We sure had fun when we were together didn’t we”

    Before you know it she’s ankles in the air with the douche-bag. Those bad boys never settle so the used up ‘hot-chicks’ have to settle for the less desirable males. They invariably and almost always end up cheating on their loyal husbands because they know they can get away with it. Many marriages are broken up by this mentality or the women force their husbands into submissive cuckolding positions. I’m writing a film about it so I’VE DONE MY RESEARCH JESS. YOU’RE WRONG. Young girls, you should listen to Marc and Kurt.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    To Jo:

    QUOTE:
    “The problem is that a lot of those women are so jaded that if a decent guy did chase after one of them, they are often very distrustful and frequently do extremely annoying things to scare him away. No guy wants to be with a woman who is very distrustful.”

    You said it yourself: They’re ‘so jaded’. And why do you think that is, sir? Hmmmm, I wonder….

    After having experienced so many womanizing, frat and pretty boy-dogs, is it any wonder that a woman may become distrustful? Hmmmm, maybe that was a rhetorical (sp?) question, lol.”

    It’s extremely menacing and counterproductive to look at the dating world as a war field. Of course if an extremely handsome man approaches a beautiful woman who’s been jaded by players would suspect him of being the same. The problem is she doesn’t even think anything of a man who is short, or less attractive, or slightly overweight… even if he has the balls to walk up to her and start a conversation. She just deems him ‘unworthy’ from the get go. So who’s the real hypocrite here?

  • JeSs

    Kenny
    I have had a few stunning friends, they weren’t spiteful at all. They turned a blind eye to a lot of hostility from both sexes.
    .
    I understand your points but in reality hotness only lasts maybe 18-36? its only a small fraction of your life.
    .
    Anyway you probably like the idea of possessing beauty as perhaps you don’t think you have that. As a women I can tell you most women don’t like the idea of 30 salacious eyes following them across the bar. It’s incredibly intimidating. I have spent most of my life in jeans and jumper, and I’m happier because I get to be invisible. Honesty live as a vaguely attractive women for a day and see the crap u put up with. Men can be so uncivilised at times. Sorry to say.
    .
    And in many walks of life, beauty doesnt make things easier. In media or hollywood yes but not if you are a tree surgeon or dentist, or pilot or comedian.
    .
    The quality of life difference is not as stark as you think it is. I’m happier now in my 40s than when 20. But I’m not as pretty as I was 20 years ago. So it can’t be the overriding influence on happiness.
    .
    Also How many pretty girls die of depression or nervosa?

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    JESS

    It is obvious you are completely arrogant and a narcissist as exemplified here:

    QUOTE:”Anyway you probably like the idea of possessing beauty as perhaps you don’t think you have that.”

    I am fine with my looks and height. It’s shallow women claiming that the physical doesn’t matter to them who have a problem with my height. You are clearly self-entitled and you opinion no long matters to me… I shall continue posting but to you I say good-day. I am better than you pertaining to character and that’s all that matters.

  • Jess

    I’m sure you have a magnificent character and I had no clue to your looks and I phrased my sentence carefully.
    You had phrased your comments in such a way as to suggest handsome people were ‘others’ ie not you…
    Are you saying women have rejected you for being short? Well I know some women who have married shortish guys..I have no doubt they are genuine loving relationships.
    It’s true some women have deal breakers and yes, height is often one of them but not all women feel that way.
    And are you sure you have no deal breakers? Do you fancy all women? You sure?
    I have a small chest. I hope you are not gonna tell me that most guys like that!
    Happily some guys dont mind too much and they are the guys I dated….
    .
    I hope you realise that I’m mostly agreeing with you that character counts for more than looks. And I really can assure you that many, if not all women, do rate character as important.
    .
    This blog has often exposed the notion that what a guys says and do count more than looks alone.
    .
    Oh and I fancy micheal macintrye who is neither tall nor conventially handsome. But he’s as funny as hell.

  • Jennifer

    Wow, some hyper-bitterness here.

    I totally get the entitlement whining thing, and that was EXACTLY my reaction to the shallow complaints of those whining that the sexual revolution left the poor prettiest girls at the top of the ladder (boohoohooo, the princesses have no one good enough to throw their handkerchief at; please.) But this is different; it really isn’t fair that a girl who just happens to take good care of herself is treated like a prized piece of meat. Disgusting and unworthy, and simply presuming she’s put down worthy men is a vain and pointless action.

    “:-P
    No it’s not a high quality problem to have if you’re looking to save those winnings and build something real with them. Or help out your family. Or invest conservatively as a legacy for your children. Meanwhile, your doorbell rings 10 times a day, and when you answer it some bum shouts, “Hey lady, gimme some money!””

    Exactly.

  • http://gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    Kenny: try reading dannyfrom504’s blog if you think 5’5″ is a disqualifier.

    Jess is technically right when she says women are more forgiving than men when it comes to physical looks. But they are merciless when it comes down to dominance, and that is rarer, so being more forgiving about looks doesn’t matter in practice.

    Don’t confuse “attractiveness” with “physical looks”.

    Men prize looks almost exclusively, and while that bar is probably slightly higher than women’s looks-only filter as Jess notes, that’s the end of it. They don’t have some other dealbreaker filter that removes 90% of women from the running, like women do.

    In practice, it means that men find more women attractive than women do men, despite the fact women are slightly more forgiving on looks.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    To Jennifer

    QUOTE: “But this is different; it really isn’t fair that a girl who just happens to take good care of herself is treated like a prized piece of meat. Disgusting and unworthy, and simply presuming she’s put down worthy men is a vain and pointless action.”

    NO IT’s NOT! I have no problem with women… and no problem with pretty women (despite the fact I’ve been rejected even being everything they claim to want) I judge each person individually. But for someone who gets everything they want (or damn near it) and has countless opportunities to complain or to have to deal with a little ogling in PREPOSTEROUS! ABSOLUTELY PREPOSTEROUS! Everyone has problems but when a person’s benefits dues to any of their attributes outweighs the minuscule cons they have NO RIGHT to piss and moan. And when they do they look like shallow morons… because they are.

    PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

  • Jennifer

    Those women in the SMP must be pretty brutal, because the women I know require a simply good frame (i.e., not being a pushover). It’s not hard to tell.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Off The Cuff

    I’d have to extremely disagree. In my experience height is a MAJOR deal-breaker for 90% of women. They claim it isn’t but when countless guys like me and others who stand under 5’8″ are reasonably attractive to very attractive, confident, humorous, charismatic, genuine, courteous and ambitious yet still being rejected and passed over by women who are still shorter than them but not the Ideal 6’2″ who do you think has it harder?

    I’m not saying there aren’t women out there that will forego the height requirements, THERE ARE, but they are in the EXTREME minority. The ones who do go for shorter guys are with them out of blind luck since dating is a numbers game, and even if they would have given the guy a chance regardless the fact that the shorter guy ran into an open-minded woman like here are outrageously slim.

    For others like overweight or shy men or “conventionally unattractive” men that approach beautiful women it runs along the lines of maybe 5% actually are given a chance. Women are bombarded with media telling them they can do and do deserve better… eventually even an enlightened woman’s resolve will be beaten down. So if she is approached by a genuine guy she will more than likely reject him for some frivolous reason like his nose or his hair, height, weight, etc. and reason that “he wasn’t confident and I love confidence”. As if starting a conversation with a woman doesn’t show confidence in itself. Most women are just hanging on t0 this idealized cookie-cutter facade that Disney has forced down their throat of prince charming since they were young.

    It’s not a battle field between men and women in the dating field but most women make it to be and A MAJORITY of the time they reject a man that would be good for them due to “lack of attraction” which usually does boil down to looks. Lets face it. If two men of equal height, equal weight, equal lack of confidence but polarizing looks approached a woman she would naturally go for the more physically attractive male and reason it was because he was more confident. I’m not saying it’s wrong I’m just saying if women are as hypocritical about outward appearance as men are… AND THEY ARE (anyone who disagrees is deluding themselves) then woman should own up to it and stop playing this BS “OH MY LIFE IS FULL OF WOE” card.

    I may be coming off as arrogant… I can’t convince anyone otherwise if they think that but it’s really irritating to be what women claim to want and be rejected left and right and see other equally qualified men go through the same hardships and then one day come upon a gaggle of women complaining they have no viable options and their lives are so down-trodden. It’s really sickening… and what’s worse so many people buy into this BS and give these women the attention they were looking for by whining like this despite the fact they get so much as is.

    REALLY SICKENING.

  • Jennifer

    You judged that woman based on nothing but her looks, Kenny. The women who rejected you may have been shallow dimwits, or they may not have felt emotional connection, but your comments towards this woman’s character are groundless.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Jennifer

    Stereotypes exist for a reason… THEY ARE USUALLY TRUE! The keyword being usually…

    Secondly: Perhaps you should take a look at the video embedded in this post. That’s the focus of this topic… NOT one specific woman. And if I have made a generalization about a particular woman here I won’t apologize because it was probably true. And even if it wasn’t those are the breaks… how many times have I been pegged as a lesser man, or having a small penis, or being a domineering jerk with a napoleonic complex merely due to my height. Probably more than she can claim to have been objectified. Have I pissed and moaned about it all over the internet? NO! Only have I brought it up here to illustrate other people have it more difficult than the woeful pretty girls and pretty people… oh they have it so tough. It is laughable that they think they have it so hard.

    There was a study… if I can find the publication I will post… but this study proved human interaction (both physical and social) are integral to being a healthy human being. People who are rejected based on their appearance are generally alienated and ostracized. So it would stand to reason that their health and self-adjustment is considerably skewed in comparison to a pretty person who is doted upon continually with affection and approach. This in itself is large evidence that beautiful people have become aware that the internet is a place to heavily vent as well as garner attention and selfishly want in on that attention because they are beautiful and feel they are entitled. I simply can’t wait until I find the publication to that study so I can validate this statement.

  • Jennifer

    Even if you did, you’d still be basing this on presumptions about several attractive women and nothing else.

    Right now, I need to lose weight; if I lost enough, I’d go back to the figure I had as a younger woman, very slender with large breasts and a (I’ve been told) perky butt. I could also grow my hair long again, thick and wavy. If I did all this and kept clearing my skin and wore more makeup, well, I know I’d attract more attention. Would I then, quite suddenly, become “one of those women” you crush here?

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Jennifer

    YES YOU WOULD… if you were constantly bitching about it. But you seem like a very genuine woman. You aren’t trolling for attention like these women are. You have faced the facts that life is difficult and you have flaws but you still trudge through, as have I. My quarrel ISN’T with pretty women or beautiful people in general (AS I HAVE STATED THIS NUMEROUS TIMEs IN THIS POST) it is with people who are attractive, quite obviously get a slew of attention and perks in life and still have the nerve to complain they have it so terribly hard… and the audacity to claim they have the hardest of all. It’s ATTENTION SEEKING AND IT NEEDs TO STOP!

    You may be slightly overweight but I’d venture to say I’d find you physically attractive and most men would as well. I personally don’t find a bag of bones attractive nor do I find a walrus attractive. But that’s not the issue I’m bringing up, AND IT NEVER WAS. I’m simply calling these people out on their BS and attention seeking as they should be called out. EVERYONE HAS PROBLEMs, but I find some of the whiniest people are usually the ones with the GREATEST advantage in this society and to say their problems are merited over others who NEVER complain and certainly have it far worse is LUDICROUS! POSITIVELY LUDICROUS!

    Jennifer, I may not agree with your defending these attention seeking brats but I do feel you are far more of a worthy person than they. And yet still, if you met me in real life (not having exchanged a debate with me as such) you’d probably dismiss me as a potential lover or mate since that’s what the media and these selfish pretty people condition you to think. Yes there is a chance you wouldn’t and would want to get to know me and possibly start a relationship with me (or a man like me) but the odds are more so in favor of you rejecting any notion of attraction simply because I am not a pretty person. That is not a slight on you personally it is just a statement of averages.

    I am not claiming any sort of conspiracy concocted by pretty people, I am merely saying it is presumptuous and conceded for people who have it relatively easy to claim hardship. They may have problems but to create a documentary and a thread claiming that their lot in life is duplicitously deceiving and a curse in disguise in simply narcissistic and horrible.

  • Marc

    It’s been a while, and I see the board lighting up. Some comments and confessions…..
    Everyone tries to get the best deal in life, and there is nothing wrong with the desire and pursuit of a better life. Part of this better life includes a great partner. For most of us, this means the most attractive partner we can obtain.
    ….
    I think men shoot for the hottest woman they can get. Most women shoot for the hottest guy they can get that will remain loyal, and not trade her in later in life. I once had a woman tell me after 30 seconds of conversation “you’re too good looking for me, I couldn’t keep you”. I am attractive, but no Jesse Metcalfe, and I would consider her slightly beneath me in the looks dept. I felt it was a genuine comment from her.
    …..
    I confess that I take some pleasure in watching a bitter 45yo woman in a social environment. One that you can tell used to be hot. I think it’s because we hated to see her have everything handed to her when she was younger, and now……it’s over. Especially love to watch her, watching the guys that are watching the new, young generation of girls walk by, and not noticing her. (Did you catch that?) We all have our chance at youth, and she certainly had hers. She should be grateful that she had 10 years of hotness as a memory….most women and men will never have that.
    ……
    I also want to confess that I am attracted to women of average intelligence. I usually get laughs and negative reactions to this, but it’s true. Intelligence is not necessarily a choice, we are born with it. Are these people saying that only smart women deserve love???? I disagree. Someone has to love girls of average intelligence, I want to be that guy. Whats wrong with that?
    ….
    But girls of average looks…..that’s another story!

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Sharon Cox

    QUOTE:”Jess,

    Stop it please! Grow up and face reality. All of us 40+ girls are less desireable, …and thats it! You love your wrinkles??? Shut up stUpid. You love being 40+ ???? Because I hate it. But, we had our chance with our youth, and we have passed the torch to the new, young beautiful girls. Support them, don’t hate on them. I am jealous….and happy for them.”

    LOL! So a level headed woman actually put that B*tch in her place! Has I read that comment earlier I could have saved myself a lot of typing with that Jess broad.

    PROPs TO YOU SHARON COX!

  • Sassy6519

    Oy vey. I don’t know if I should post what I’m about to post for fear of Kenny Fabritius tearing me a new one, but here goes.

    I consider myself a pretty woman. I’ve been told this more times than I can count. I am aware of the perks of being an attractive person, but that doesn’t nullify the fact that the drawbacks are very real and hard to deal with.

    I have dated various types of men and been approached by various types of men as well. The type of attention I got was, for the most part, FAR from the type of attention I wanted. Both attractive men and unattractive men in the past have been very crude in their approaches with me. You’d be surprised how often men will make it known that they are “so stunned by your beauty” and that “they’d do anything to have one night with me”. I’ve heard far worse comments than that.

    I’ve been solicited, in the past, by some of my bosses, guys who were supposed to be only my “guy friends”, teachers, the best-friends of my current boyfriend, you name it. It’s frustrating to not be able to trust for a second the males around you who you are supposed to trust (i,e, bosses/teachers/mutual friends). It’s even more frustrating to have to deal with the fallout after rejecting these men. I had one of my past boyfriend’s best-friend go around making up huge lies about me being involved with him and saying them to anyone who would listen, including the boyfriend, purely out of spite because I rejected him. I’ve had my professional relationships with bosses and teachers strained to the point of extreme awkwardness because I rejected their advances.

    My personal female experience has also shown me that the physical attractiveness of a male I am dating has much less of an influence as the amount of CONFIDENCE IN HIMSELF he has. I once dated a very attractive man. He and I were of the same attractiveness level. We dated for 9 months and I broke up with him because he was extremely jealous of the attention other men gave me. Despite the fact that I was truly devoted to him alone, he couldn’t get over the fact that other men gawked at me.

    The same exact scenario has happened two other times when I dated men who were less attractive than me physically. They would always whine about how I “was too good for them” or how “they couldn’t believe someone as attractive as me would want to date a man like them”. I truly cared about these men because they had awesome personalities aside from their lack of confidence. Eventually both of those relationships ended for the same reasons.

    Whether some of the people on here are willing to admit it or not, high attractiveness (8, 9, or 10) can also be a hindrance to “normal” human interactions. Just because certain people are attractive doesn’t mean that any of their plights aren’t just as painful as the rest. It’s also why extremely wealthy people often complain about having a hard time finding people who are willing to interact with them genuinely for them instead of for “their money” or “what they could do for them”. It doesn’t make the specific type of alienation they feel any more or less painful than the rest of society.

  • Jennifer

    There’s no reason for 40-year-olds to be bitter; you can still be gorgeous, and if married you’re further along and probably more fulfilled than many 20-somethings today. I want the body I had at 13, but I wouldn’t go back there entirely. Precious memories, but I have more of other things at this age. Sharon Cox’s comments sounded pretty immature themselves.

    Thank you for the kind words, Kenny. I hope you do find a good woman.

    OTC, perfect reply and explanation to Bella.

  • detinennui32

    Wow. A two year old thread still going.

    Heh. Jennifer sounds like a catch. Stop posting on here and go meet some men.

    Seriously, Kenny just took a red pill and is having some digestion problems. He’ll be all right in a few weeks or months. My prescription is that he read here, Badger and Dalrock, and call me in the morning.

    Sassy: I see your avatar. Eh, you’re all right, I guess. You seem a little interesting. (See what I did there with the playful, teasing putdown so as to get you down off that pedestal?)

    It’s really fascinating to see the Roissyisms proved true again — from the horse’s mouth, no less. None of the men Sassy describes have fully gotten that red pill down. The comments she says they make and the hamfisted advances are pedestalization (“I can’t believe you’d date me”) and projection (crude and overly forward propositioning — the way we’d like girls like Sassy to come on to us).

    One of Roissy’s commandments is “ignore her beauty” in approaches and in relationships. Why? So you can get past the obvious, bump up your confidence, get to know her as an individual; and so you get this hot giel off that pedestal to level the playing field.

  • detinennui32

    @ Sassy:

    “I’ve been solicited, in the past, by some of my bosses, guys who were supposed to be only my “guy friends”, teachers, the best-friends of my current boyfriend, you name it. It’s frustrating to not be able to trust for a second the males around you who you are supposed to trust (i,e, bosses/teachers/mutual friends).”

    Ifind this very hard to believe. Seriously, are you saying you had work supervisors propositioning you? Teachers propositioning you? Do they still have their jobs? In today’s day and age, propositioning a subordinate or a student for hookup sex is a career ending move. Even asking a subordinate or a student for a date are, if rejected, career ending moves.

    (I add the qualifier “if rejected” because we all know that when attractive men do this, it’s OK. When unattractive men do this, especially if punching above their weight and out of their league with a “high attractiveness” girl, it’s de facto “creepy” and “sexual harassment”.)

    I also find it hard to believe that you had friends of your current BF hitting on you. Part of the bro code is that you don’t go after your bro’s current woman (but after you break up, she’s fair game). Breaking the bro code in this way ends friendships permanently. No girl is worth that. Not even you.

    Your “guy friends” who try to make moves on you are beta orbiters. I hate to break this to you, but these men are interested in you for more than intellectual stimulation. This is a great problem to have, although these men are not attractive to you and you’ve probably already LJBF’d them. I can’t summon a lot of sympathy for you here.

  • detinennui32

    @ Sassy:

    “The same exact scenario has happened two other times when I dated men who were less attractive than me physically. They would always whine about how I “was too good for them” or how “they couldn’t believe someone as attractive as me would want to date a man like them”. I truly cared about these men because they had awesome personalities aside from their lack of confidence. Eventually both of those relationships ended for the same reasons.”

    Roissy proven right again: The more attractive she is relative to you, the tighter the game needs to be.

    In my younger years I dated a 9 for a short time and an 8 for longer. I’m a 6 at best so I was clearly punching above my weight. I didn’t know it at the time but I was running cocky/funny on them and clearly acting as though I didn’t care about the outcome. Was able to hook up with both of them . When I regressed back to beta the bloom was off the rose. the 9 promplty dumped me, the 8 limped along for way too long.

    When with the high attractiveness girl, you have to actually be what you advertised yourself as. If you’re not, you can attract her but you can’t keep her.

  • jess

    kenny
    .
    i cannot imagine why you have such hostility- i was being supportive and helpful
    .
    you dug up a quote about me from a long time ago…. a bit odd. But i stand by my point from way back. i.e. i am happier now at 40+ than when much younger. and i actually FEEL sexier, by a mile. It may be delusion but its my reality.
    .
    you seem very bitter- perhaps the bitterness comes through and puts women off? just a suggestion.
    .
    Sassy used the word- gawking. its horrid for many women. Especially as you know the people doing it are a lot stronger than you and you likely know someone who has had a very bad experience.
    .
    Would you like to be the only straight guy in a gay bar with powerfully built guys leering at you and making filthy suggestions under their breath? about what they would like to do with you? if you would be cool with that then fine- you have a thicker skin than I.
    .
    you may know some shallow women. i have met some shallow men too. Neither are representative of the entire race.
    .
    I note that you dodged my question about your own deal breakers. I wasn’t trying to be smart- it just illustrates the point that none of us is without fault on this.
    .
    off the cuff- yeah you make a great point- would probably agree with the deal breaker vs general looks standards thing

  • Jennifer

    “I see your avatar. Eh, you’re all right, I guess. You seem a little interesting”

    That earned an eye-roll from me. Some women don’t even like attractive men treating them like meat; one of the cocky bastards who’s good-looking would more likely lose his job because of me. You sound like you’d tell Freddy he failed because his game wasn’t tight enough for those women.

  • detinennui32

    Jen:

    for an average guy like me to approach an attractive woman, I’d need to neg a little bit.

  • Jennifer

    You’d definitely need confidence in yourself and a non-awestruck attitude, lol. Guys just need to be careful in what they say about looks; anything crude, or really downputting, is off. But proper “negging” can cause positive friction.

  • Sassy6519

    @ detinennui32

    I didn’t make any of what I said up. I have indeed had some bosses, teachers, and best-friends of past boyfriends try to solicit me, meaning they have tried to ask me out on dates or for more. Don’t think it doesn’t happen. It does. When it was happening, I was very stunned. I couldn’t believe some guys would risk their reputations, careers, or friendships just to take a shot at me. The penis compelled them indeed.

    Also, about pickup lines and game, my “favorite” pickup line, and by “favorite” I mean “the one that makes me want to claw my own face off”, is “Do you date white guys?”.

    I swear that one pisses me off the most. I kind of get it. Some of the chocolate ladies are hesitant to date outside their race, so it’s a good idea to test the waters, but the way these guys say it is sooooooo creepy. They get this lecherous look in their eyes like I’m some sort of fetish.

    Just this past Sunday I went out to the bar to get some drinks. This white guy approached me, drunk off his ass, and asked me if I liked white guys, to which I nervously replied yes. He then proceeded to do a 2 minute rendition of the song “Brown Sugar” by the Rolling Stones. He started doing this awkward sort of dance with it too. I tried my best to hide how mortified I was.

  • jess

    ha… i can top that
    .
    a few years ago… i had a rendition of James Blunt’s ‘you’re beautiful’ by 2 drunk Australian idiots in ‘all bar one’.
    .
    I was sat alone whilst My partner was at the bar taking ages to get drinks. They were so drunk they didn’t even see me leave to wait outside- they were singing to an empty table.
    .
    and about 10 mins later when my other half caught up with me outside we watched in horror through the window as they did the exact same thing to 2 girls trying a have a quiet drink a few tables down. Nice. And Mortifying. The jackasses.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    detinennui32 to Sassy QUOTE:

    Your “guy friends” who try to make moves on you are beta orbiters. I hate to break this to you, but these men are interested in you for more than intellectual stimulation. This is a great problem to have, although these men are not attractive to you and you’ve probably already LJBF’d them. I can’t summon a lot of sympathy for you here.

    I have to agree with detinennui32 here. You’re being very self entitled Sassy. You can’t have the world. Men are men. Most (if not all men) only acquire female friends (extremely attractive to even relatively unattractive) because they have a forethought that these woman may develop into potential love interests. Rarely do men only want to be friends with any woman. It is the woman who usually places them in the friend zone, yet in rare cases the man genuinely sees the woman as a younger sister sort or they both mutually feel only close in common interests. Still, I have few close friends period and fewer close female friends. Some I put in the friend zone and some did me the discourtesy. There are very few people I connect with on a similar and general level, and this seems to be with most people of varying levels of attractiveness. The fact that you have these beta male orbiters constantly around you suggests you desire attention, not genuine connection with them as anyone is unlikely to make genuine connections with large amounts of people, it’s just not human nature. This suggests you either are not attracted to them but secretly crave the attention so you keep them as orbiters but like to complain when they get the wrong idea, or you don’t understand the true nature of genuine friendship and are one of those people who has 50 plus “BFFs”. I mean no malice towards you and no intent to ‘tear you a new one’ as you so eloquently put it, I’m just attempting to deconstruct the statement you made objectively with the little information you have divulged.

    Jess QUOTE:
    “kenny
    .
    i cannot imagine why you have such hostility- i was being supportive and helpful
    .
    you dug up a quote about me from a long time ago…. a bit odd. But i stand by my point from way back. i.e. i am happier now at 40+ than when much younger. and i actually FEEL sexier, by a mile. It may be delusion but its my reality.
    .
    you seem very bitter- perhaps the bitterness comes through and puts women off? just a suggestion.”

    It’s an internet forum… most people will be less inhibited. I’m a courteous person because I was raised as so and rarely vent my anger (not that I bottle it up, just things rarely make me livid). With a barrier such as a forum and a web domain most people can be passionate or overzealous in forums. I will not apologize for any statements I’ve made nor do I expect or request you do the same. I simply desire mutual respect that you would be realistic and lend benefit of the doubt that I don’t conduct myself in such a manner with women in real life or on dates. I would offer you the same respect as you seem to come off a bit arrogant and entitled (whilst I may be seeming bitter) I would never presume you conduct yourself in such a manner in real life. But that is for you to decide.

    Back to Sassy Quote:

    “I didn’t make any of what I said up. I have indeed had some bosses, teachers, and best-friends of past boyfriends try to solicit me, meaning they have tried to ask me out on dates or for more. Don’t think it doesn’t happen. It does. When it was happening, I was very stunned. I couldn’t believe some guys would risk their reputations, careers, or friendships just to take a shot at me. The penis compelled them indeed.”

    So men should not try to pursue a woman unless she holds up a brightly light sign stating “AVAILABLE, WILLING AND ACCEPTING SOLICITAIONs NOW… WHEN SIGN IS UNLIT DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT BOYs”. Very self entitled of you. It’s becoming clearer you are merely tired of being solicited by men you find repulsive or unattractive. You have mentioned little (if any) of you disdain for the conventionally attractive men soliciting you and finding it unappealing. Very self entitled of you indeed. I just call them like I see them. And for the record I have flaws, I am aware of this and do my best to work on them. But to try and throw that in my or any other person’s face denouncing this forum you should wait for them to start a post complaining about their lives. Only then can you avoid looking like a hypocrite. as I said I never stated pretty girls and pretty people don’t have problems (well not in earnest, in jest yes and if you can’t read sarcasm that’s not my problem). I have merely been saying pretty girls and pretty people nowhere nearly have it the worst, and it’s audacious for them to make the statement as so.

    To Jess:

    Your story about the drunks badgering the women is genuinely rude and I would feel for them as well. But comments like Sassy’s reading as if she is mortified for a man merely taking a shot (and not indicating they were lewd in any manner) screams she is full of herself in my opinion.

  • jess

    kenny,
    i have no problem in someone making a pass or a spot of flirtation in general, in fact I would regard it as a compliment. provided any rejection was handled gracefully.
    .
    but lechery from strangers who just see you as an orifice, and do it to another woman 5 seconds later isn’t that flattering.
    .
    i think susan made a nice quote as women only wanting attention from a favoured male. kinda true.
    .
    as for the bitterness thing i wasnt making a presumption- I was tentatively offering a suggestion in the most neutral language i could muster.
    .
    and i hate to hammer the point but any chance you could answer my deal breaker and gay bar questions?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    I like how you consider me “self-entitled” because I try to have friends who happen to have a penis. I don’t think it is completely impossible to have completely platonic friends of the opposite gender. Most people tend to have one or two, from what I’ve seen in my world. For me though, , most of the times I’ve had male friends, they themselves tell me they want friendship, only to blatantly ask for otherwise down the road. I think they feel like being my friend first is a good way of getting me to let my guard down, then pushing for something more down the road isn’t as scary to them as making their true intentions known from the get go.

    Once again, I like that you have the nerve to call me “self-entitled” for not accepting the advances of bosses, teachers, etc. THESE MEN WERE IN PROFESSIONAL POSITIONS OF POWER. It’s both of our duty to maintain completely PROFESSIONAL relationships with each other. The fact that they were willing to risk their reputations and careers for that isn’t flattering at all. My goal when going to work and school is to be focused on my performance and to maintain a professional demeanor. I don’t want to be known as the woman screwing her boss or teacher. That would only make me look like a person of “poor character”. The problem isn’t that these men took a shot at me. It’s the fact that WERE MY SUPERIORS, yet still didn’t behave themselves as such.

    I’ll agree with Jess on this. You do seem very bitter towards women in general. I’m not obligated to get involved with any man who shows interest in me, just like no man is obligated to get involved with me if I show them attention. This discretion doesn’t make me a bad person. It makes me a choosy woman. According to Susan and most of the men on here, they want women to be choosier instead of messing around with every man that feeds her a line or two.

    Lastly, I wasn’t mortified because a man took a shot at me at the bar. I was mortified because he brought so much attention to us by practically shouting the lyrics to the song “Brown Sugar” to me while dancing awkwardly for all to see. I was embarrassed of the situation, but mostly embarrassed for him. Being drunk and hitting on a woman are not excuses to act like a fool. If I can exercise self control in social situations, I don’t see why others cannot. This does not make me stuck up or “Full of herself” as you put it.

    Question for you. Why do you automatically label women who turn down a man, for whatever reason it may be, as “conceited”, “full of herself”, or “self entitled”? Once again, women have the right to turn down a man for any reason, just as men can turn down a woman for any reason as well. People have deal-breakers, but that doesn’t make them bad people. I’m starting to get the feeling that you’re jaded from all the rejection you say you’ve faced. That negative energy is easy to spot, and most women will avoid a man if they can tell he has a chip on his shoulder.

  • http://www.yahoo.co.uk dave L

    Kenny i can see where your coming from but I think you have a lot of generalisations.

    I mean, not every woman that dated a ‘bad boy’ , then married a nice man, goes back to the bad boy at the click of the figners.

    Sure it has happened, but not every woman will be like that. Some women will also have the sense to realise their husband is a good catch which they are not losing.

    I also dosagree with people saying good looking people get everything they want. This isnt true at all. Sure a beautiful women may get drinks bought for her, but in the scheme of things.. its a few drinks and nothing else. As for jobs and soon.. well i know plenty of people who would employ someone on their interview, qualifications and past experience – NOT their looks.

    Again i still stand by my opinion that some women by having a ‘type’ may be shooting themsleves in the foot. It actually suprises me to think that if tehre was a man that was good looking, a nice person and had a good job – but didnt fit their typical ‘type’ – would women honestly turn them away? (but again.. this is probably the women that are single in thir 40s and complaing – the women who are happily married will be the ones that DID date the man..)

    And i also agree that i think some people have settled down far too soon. I am 25 and single, no children etc.. and i am not looking to settle down at all. Just enjoying life really. And yet theres people my age who are already managed. Its just not for me, its too early in my opinion. Like wise tehres also people my age who are engaged and already cheated on their partners – so why are they even getting married?

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    There you go again misconstruing a person’s words to suit your agenda Sassy. All I said was MOST… Key word ‘MOST’ males don’t desire female friends and vice versa. The larger point I was attempting to make was you seem to want EVERY man in you like to be best friends with you. That is not only unrealistic… it’s narcissistic and attention seeking at its core. That’s the last I have to say of it and you’ve yet to bring a point of conjecture that holds any validity or substance. You’re just slinging opinion and bratty demands so I think my attention is lost on you.

    Jess. I’d be happy to give my opinion on you gay bar question I simply don’t seem to recall it. Would you please reiterate?

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Again to Sassy. Was never I commenting you shouldn’t be taken seriously… however you NEVER presented specifics so when you made statements about being mortified by men hitting on you and never once explained the context it did make you seem self-entitled and demanding that all me should be conscious of when you are approachable. I’m sure many other male commenters on here felt the same way. Actually I’m certain at least one did and commented. My comments were simply a tad volatile. If you are not humble enough to admit that you at the very least asked for the chiding by not giving specifics and assuming everyone knew you were speaking of embarrassing pick-up attempts by these men then you are in deed stuck-up. If you concede the point that you could have been more open about the context of these pick-up attempts then I’d be in a position to apologize. I find the later unlikely.

    If I come off as bitter to women I have every right to be. However I have already explained the nature of posting on a forum. If you did not take the time to read that comment it is further evidence you pay little attention to things not directly involving you (As it was directed at another poster).
    Many, many, many many, MANY women have devastated me (unintentionally and severely INTENTIONALLY) and rejected me merely for being short. I continue to live my life with a positive demeanor the best I can and still approach women with a clean slate. However, I live in the real world… whilst I will give every individual the benefit of the doubt upon initial encounter statistically a minority male dressed as a thug and trolling about as if he is tough us usually a criminal, statistically a man or any ethnicity dressed in an expensive business suit is usually a greedy, backstabbing sycophant, and in my experience a majority of women will either ridicule me or push me into the friend-zone without a second thought. Or they may not give me a second glance all together and ignore me completely, when I’m being cordial and flattering (NOT crude or lewd or embarrassing as you claim so many men are when approaching women). So what might I ask would you do, or how would you view most women were you in my situation? I have put myself in your perspective countless times before commenting here. The answers I’ve come up with were after a reasonable amount of empathizing and reasoning. If I were attempting to be cruel or spiteful my verbiage would be much more harsh I can assure you.

    Those professors who made advances were the only men I can see that you have described being VERY inappropriate, and you made no comment as to weather you reported them. That’s sexual harassment. If you’re not reporting it you doing a great disservice to the next woman who is pressured by them and may sleep with them out of sheer desperation for a grade or fear they will be punished with academic failure. The fact that you have not said you reported those professors shows you are not as truly hardworking and intelligent as you claim to be (complacent of societal expectations). It also shows you are so single minded that you only care about your advancement and are leaving these creeps to prey on future women. All evidence pointing to the fact you are selfish.

    I am only commenting on the words you have left in this forum. If you have left out details then you are the one making yourself appear this way. Even if unintentional by you, assuming everyone knows what you mean or the context in which you present information is very single minded and at the very least is a hint of a self-absorbed personality.

    Prove me wrong and I will gladly admit it. I hold no ill will in having to admit being wrong. But I foresee you only complaining and continuing a mud slinging contest. Unfortunate.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Sassy

    QUOTE: “Ifind this very hard to believe. Seriously, are you saying you had work supervisors propositioning you? Teachers propositioning you? Do they still have their jobs? In today’s day and age, propositioning a subordinate or a student for hookup sex is a career ending move. Even asking a subordinate or a student for a date are, if rejected, career ending moves.”

    Some evidence at least one other poster agrees with me that you are selfish or that your answers are contrived to self serve your opinions. I’m sure I’ll get flack that the poster is also male… but at least I’m presenting evidence with my argument… this gives me validity if I choose to be self-entitled. You should learn how to play the game Sassy. You can’t just make up your own rules.

    I’m sorry for all other posters that I have to kill the joke, but I’m sure I have to explain to Sassy the ‘learn to play the game’ comment was mere sarcasm. Truly sorry for all those who got it and are now chuckling less that I had to explain that quip.

    And now I think I’m done commenting to you Sassy. Sorry for jumping the gun earlier… I have to learn to bite my tongue sometimes I’ll admit.

  • jess

    1. do you fancy all women on earth? or are there any types you don’t fancy? i.e. any deal breakers?
    .
    2. would you be flattered and happy to be the only straight guy in a gay bar where all the other patrons are taller and stronger than you and are muttering under their breath, but loud enough for you and others to hear, obscene and sexually aggressive comments about what they are about to do to you?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritious

    When did I say anywhere in my past posts that I want all the men I know to only be my friends? That’s right, I didn’t. It’s not narcissistic nor vain to want to have maybe 1 or 2 friends of the opposite gender. That seems normal to me.

    What I have referred to have been some of my guy friends in the past who told me themselves in the beginning that they “just wanted to be friends” or that they “thought of me as a sister”, only to go back on their words later. Then they get frustrated with me for not seeing them in a romantic light later down the road, when they backed themselves into that corner by setting the friendship parameters from the get go. Romantic feelings aren’t like some switches that I can turn on and off whenever a guy comes around to wanting a relationship with me.

    Also, I don’t think I’m crazy for only wanting to be friends with my bosses, teachers, and the best-friends of the men I’m dating. That just seems like common sense. Someone has to draw the line between professional relationships and casual/romantic relationships, and I’m happy to do it if the man in question doesn’t.

    How has anything I’ve said so far been bratty? You seem upset for my rebuttals, but you started this by using harsh words in regards to my character when they weren’t warranted.

    As the saying goes, “Don’t start none, won’t be none”

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Dave L

    You have a level head on your shoulders. The points you have made are valid. And I can understand you comment that I was making generalizations. To some degree I was and if that made me come off as a bitter person or ignorant that’s unfortunate… it was not my intent.

    I will not apologize for having the guts and balls to stand up to a person who is relatively to extremely successful in life (most of that success attributed to their looks) and telling those people they are whining brats for doing so. ESPECIALLY when I see and know people (men and women) who have it 100 times worse, more adversity and disadvantage and are not even making a peep.

    If I have used generalizations it was only in response to the generalizations of the documentary clip imbedded in this post and many of the comments by ignorant people siding with the ‘PLIGHT OF BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE”. Everyone is an individual true and everyone has problems. I MAINTAIN however, the problems of most conventionally attractive people are trivial in comparison to the average to unattractive person. My comments and insinuations on this post were always in the spirit of fighting back this ignorant view of pretty people should be pitied, or beautiful people have it harder/hardest. THEY DON’T.

    Jess

    I do not fancy all women no, I would be lying if I said otherwise. However, I do not out right reject a woman for not meeting my ideal of attraction. Physically I find fit but curvy women to plus size women (well proportioned). I don not find very thin women attractive nor do I find a woman 50 + lbs overweight attractive. Intellectually I am attracted to a woman who can hold a stimulating conversation but has a volatile sense of humor and does not take herself, nor life, too seriously. I am usually attracted to or approach women who are shorter than me, but I have approached women taller with no prejudice. All in all I am far from perfect but if I have rejected a woman I have made an effort to only reject them based on several aspects of their looks and character. A woman rejecting a man who fits all her criteria except in the height department is shallow. It CAN NOT be perceived as a preference. The word preference inherently implies a desire but not mandatory. Further if a man rejects a woman due to her breast size or her weight or her facial features alone HE TOO IS SHALLOW. A majority of women simply revel in the ability to maintain double standards. It is a back-lash of women’s lib. DO NOT MISCONSTRUE MY WORDs! I believe women are entitled to equality. But I liken it to ‘catholic schoolgirl syndrome’. Many women mistaken overly selective standards in dating, rampant promiscuity and sexually suggestive or provocative clothing as liberating. They in most cases are not and detrimental to women and relationships in general. Women have simply been repressed for so long many of them mistake the ability to ‘flaunt it’ or being nit-picky in selection of men as an exercising of their freedom. Just because I have the freedom to say what I wish doesn’t mean I should. Conversely, just because a woman has the freedom to sleep around doesn’t mean she should. This rant aside I simply feel there is an aspect of women’s lib that has made a good portion of women hate men and view them as enemies. Thus they feel: “men are really all pigs and bad so I’m going to find the best looking one, the most wealthy to father my children, that way if things don’t work out I at least have good looking children and can get some of his money”. Again this seems as a generalization… but there are many women who feel this way. Further I have little faith in humanity in general. To say people are generally good natured is naive. There is a slew of other topics on the manner in which people conduct themselves I could comment on but this forum is not the place.

    As to your comment about the gay bar. No I certainly would not relish that experience. I would be flattered if the comments were flattering (i.e. not lewd) but if advances were made I would politely say I am straight but thank you for the compliment. This may be skewed to how other men may react since I’ve worked in theatre and film much of my life and have had to deal with these types of situation. However, even if I was offended I would not start a forum and vent or bitch about it, begging or whining for empathy. This is where I differ, and I reiterate my comments were originally intended to call BS on this forum and that documentary clip to begin with. Any comments I have made to an individual was merely to voice a rebuttal to a statement of theirs I found to be full of logical fallacies.

    I have said my piece here. I have found the perspective I was looking for (since I stumbled upon this page in doing research for a screenplay). I bid you all adieu and wish you prosperity in your lives. I will take any criticism (constructive and harsh) into consideration on my life journey. I only hope there are levelheaded and like-minded individuals that will do the same based on my comments, for I feel I have made valid points and supported those vantage points with solid evidence. I wish you all the best, regardless of weather I agree with you as individuals or not.

  • jess

    Kenny,

    I appreciate your responses.

    Deal breaker- Note that you would automaticaly disbar me back in the day as I am pretty skinny myself. Which is ok, as its hard to fancy someone you don’t fancy.

    I would say for most humans there is a range of preferences and further still, a range of relative importance.

    Myself I strongly prefer a guy to be taller than me, and marginally prefer a full head of hair.

    I strongly prefer a sense of humour and marginally prefer quick conversational wit.

    If you were to reverse those sentences, it wouldn’t make me better or worse, or in the least bit unusual.

    I think you are being a bit hard on the ladies if I may say so- but you have your experiences to draw upon, I just hope some of what we say may tint your perspective in a nicer hue.

    Of course when somebody is rejected they may not actually really know why they are being rejected- perhaps these previous women you referred to all had different reasons?

    Gay bar- I appreciate you wouldn’t relish the experience. And that is exactly what many women, with any form of conventional attractiveness, have to put up with all the time. A constant combination of flattery, lewd comments, bitchiness from other women, pre judgements, all sorts.

    You may think you could put up with it for a day or two- but years of it takes its toll. I still live my life around personal safety. If on a summers  day I want to wear a dress I calculate the routes of my day. If I am going via my local park I will get lewd comments from the wino’s. If I am going to town fine but i must have my taxi pre booked. If I am going to a bar after work, no way would I wear a dress because pissed up city blokes won’t leave you alone. How younger girls cope is beyond me- it must be maddening.

    In terms of how pretty people have it easier- well starving african comparisons aside, other than media, fashion, porn, or hollywood, where is the advantage? Only  a small percentage of people want to do the 4 jobs I mentioned.

    Do pretty people not get cancer, depression, injury, bereavement, adversity?

    Why are you so…I dunno..jealous? angry? offended? by the idea that attractive people do not hold the keys to eternal happiness?

    Like I say I can’t be the only person who is enjoying their 40s a lot more than their 20s….

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritious

    No offense, but I feel like I’m talking to a wall the longer this conversation goes on. I don’t think anything I could possibly say would change the way this interaction is going. Like I said before, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder the size of Texas because women have rejected you so much in the past, and now you seem to be channeling that energy towards me for whatever reason that may be.

    I have listed examples all throughout my last posts about how things can, in fact, be difficult sometimes for pretty women. I even went into full detail about how I was mortified about my most recent run in with a particular guy in a bar, TWICE. Either you are merely skimming through my comments or you are hell-bent on ignoring statements in opposition to “how you think the world works”.

    I have indeed had a few bosses and teachers ask me out on dates before. I did turn their offers down, and they got the hint. I didn’t feel the need to report these men because they stopped pursuing me after I told them I wasn’t interested. Had it been repetitive/continual, you’d bet I would have reported them to higher officials.

    You do have every right to be bitter, but it crosses the line when you take it out on someone that you’ve never met nor has ever hurt you personally. There are indeed women out there who can be cruel, but not all of us are that way. You seem to have pegged all women as the former instead of the latter. It comes off as irrational. That would be like me thinking all white people are evil because some of their ancestors weren’t so nice to mine. I’m rational, however, and don’t try to peg a very mentally diverse group into such a small hole.

    I already know what your response to this will be. You’ll say that I’m selfish, making it all up, narcissistic, and whining. Like I said before, nothing I say will change the way you perceive me or my examples, probably solely because I’m a pretty woman. If you want to let your own biases overrule rational judgement, fine by me. We can continue this lovely dance we have going on between us. I could do this all day.

  • Pmd

    Hi Everyone : ) 

    I saw this post a while ago and I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it.  I had a colleague who once told me that in order to be happy, you must be happy in work, love and with family/friends.

    I was ostracised and bullied through high school.  I’m lucky enough to have one secure, married female friend, however a few of that couple’s friends include insecure wives and their husbands aren’t even allowed to talk / look at me.  Most single girls I befriend sooner or later “drop” me because they see going out in my company as a competition. 

    Relationships are difficult.  At 29 I have only dated a few men.  Men see me as a trophy to conquer without ever having any real intentions of getting to know me or dating me.  Ironically this has resulted in me being insecure, analysing my own inability to have a relationship that lasts more than a few weeks…my family keep judging me, telling me it’s weird that I’m still single.

    As for work, I have left two jobs because of sexual harassment.  In my last job, the harassment lasted for over 18 months, and I stayed there in an effort to gain some stability on my resume.  This is now happening for the third time – thankfully my manager is on the other side of the country and I have been able to reduce my travel there, however this is costing me (missing out on a promotion and on most training).  I speak two languages fluently, I have travelled to nearly 20 countries, I’m degree qualified, however one (male) colleague speaks to me in a condescending tone because he “doesn’t think I understand big words”.  I’m returning to University to do a Masters in Mathematics, in hopes of offering some proof that I’m not a complete imbecile.

    I won’t lie and say I’ve never received anything for free.  When I was younger, I didn’t even realise that I was different than others (seriously) and yes, I unknowingly took advantage of it.  Now I’m 29, have been in similar jobs for nearly ten years (because pretty girls suit client facing roles), have never had a relationship, my so-called-friends are jealous and my family constantly questions my inability to have relationships (platonic and romantic).

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that the free drinks and the random compliments don’t outweigh the fact that I can’t find one person on this earth who wishes to get to know me and have a fulfilling relationship with me, for who I am.

    I would like to change what I can:  I’ve always been able to get things easily, for free, whilst attracting attention.  I would like any advice you can give me on:

    • How can you reduce the male attention you receive?  How have you managed to turn this initial attention into friendship (is it possible)?
    • How do you balance being nice, without constantly attracting an uncomfortable amount of compliments?
    • How do you gain the trust of insecure women?

     Thanks so much for reading and for your help : )

    Pmd

  • Dogsquat

    Pmd, there are some cool folks who post here, but this is an older post.

     

    I suggest you check out some of the blogs on the sidebar, and ask there as well.  I’d suggest starting with Badger, Yohami, Danny504, Bb, and Bellita.

     

    Good luck!

  • Marc

    @pmd I will speculate based on your post. Most beautiful women have great lives. They share same basic problems as other people, except they have a strong advantage in life; their looks. Its like the people that would “complain” about being rich. Sure there are some pitfalls, but very few. Most would love this “problem”.

    You may be disolussioned about your looks. Any truly beautiful person has no problem getting dates. There are some women who live their lives with “hot chick attitudes”……that aren’t very hot. (ask yourself if this could be you. After all, you are 29, this is many years beyond what most men would consider “hot”, regardless of what you look like) This causes a downward spiral of bitterness. We’ve all seen the average looking girls with the Prada, big sunglasses, bleached hair, Range Rover, and nose in the air. They are laughable. When they stomp their feet and don’t get what they think they deserve in life, they become MORE angry, stuck up etc.
    ….

    How can you reduce the male attention you receive?
    ….This is a silly question. You already know the answer. Dress down, but you would not want to do this because you would receive LESS male attention. Like many young women chop their hair off ONCE when they are young and never do it again as they realize they get significantly less male attn. Father time will cure your male attn issue, hang in there. He’s been working on it ever since your 17th birthday.

    How have you managed to turn this initial attention into friendship (is it possible)?
    …..Impossible if you are even mildly attractive. There are 3 billion women on this planet, why do you need male friends? Stick to romance when it comes to the opposite sex, why complicate your life?

    How do you balance being nice, without constantly attracting an uncomfortable amount of compliments?
    …..This is a legitimate question in your post. Mother nature has made men more apt to believe that the opposite sex is interested in them, even if they are not. It’s because we need to deliver the sperm to keep the species going, or we would die out. Imagine if it weren’t so. People would hardly ever hook up. That’s why I understand the bitch shield! Pretty women have to be a bit standoffish in most situations. You ever notice the “hot chick who is way too nice” at a social function? She’s surrounded by dudes all night, five at a time. You can be nicer as you age, and sexual interest in you wanes.

    How do you gain the trust of insecure women?
    ……Usually the hotter a girl, the more insecure because she is constantly nit-picking her flaws and comparing herself to other hot chicks. Now, fat chicks, and ugly chicks are not insecure typically. They have accepted their place on the social ladder a long time ago. We have all encountered the fat, jersey wearing chick in line at McDonalds that has no problem telling you “hey motherfucker, I was in line first”. A hot chick would most likely never do this.
    If you’re a hot chick, you should probably hang out with other (insecure) hot chicks. Because if you hang with ugly, or average looking girls, and they are not insecure, you will have personality conflicts with eachother.

    Susan, good to see the file attachment feature. I tried to upload one, didn’t work so you know. Don’t know if the problem is on my end.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Only back to comment @ Marc

     

    YOU ARE RIGHT ON BROTHER! Fight the good fight and make sure these broads have at least one voice of opposition. The self-satisfaction here is sickeningly rank. LOL!

    In all seriousness though Marc it’s unfortunate for guys like us. The attention these girls claim to want from genuine guys like us is perpetually shunned. And it’s because of their seething double-standards. If I’m wrong and you get much attention from the ladies more power to you. In which case I’m glad there is a guy getting action that won’t take crap from whining people who get so much and still want more.

    My hat’s off to you Marc.

  • Leena

    Just want to say a few things.

    Kenny, I have to agree that you in some way seem bitter towards women.  I’m not sure what happened in your past but you seem to have much rage, i’m guessing from past experiences with beautiful women, so gain some self-confidence.

    However i have to agree with the fact that women who constantly nag about the attention they receive are kidding themselves.  Yes, i agree with the article that eventually it becomes ‘disgusting’ to have guys whistle at you, but what is wrong if a guy approaches you because he thinks you’re good looking? Usually, women who complain are the ones that feed off of the men to believe that they are beautiful because deep down inside they are insecure. It feels flattering for ANY woman to be told that “she looks beautiful”.  If a girl has a problem with that, clearly she thinks the guy is just not ‘hot’ enough for her.

    The fact that looks DO play a role is completely natural and no guy or woman should be calling the opposite sex SHALLOW because they were rejected by looks.  Truth is a beautiful woman probably won’t give the non-hot guy a chance because they are simply not attracted to them.  Attraction builds chemistry, and without chemistry imo, there is no relationship no matter how good the personality.  Now on that note, a guy may not be physically too attractive for a beautiful woman but as long as there is attraction(a force) between the 2 , the woman most likely will go for it.

    also just wanted to say Marc, you are spot on! i love everything you said.

     

  • Leena

    Also, just one more addition: it’s frustrating when people do approach you to comment on your beauty, but you can never seem to get anyone you’re interested in to think so. story of my life. And just to add another backup as to the fact that girls don’t go for only looks: I’ve rejected a guy who i think is way above me in looks (a 9 0r 10), yet seemed to think i was the most beautiful girl in the world, simply because i did not care for his personality, though he was a nice guy. On the other hand, guys i usually build feelings for end up being a 6 or 7.

  • Todd Smitts

    Am I late to the party on this?  I have to admit, while yes there’s girls I know whom I find more attractive others, I think I’m drawn more to ones I know I can converse with, tell a joke to and get a laugh.  There are some I know who, if asked, I’d say are probably more attractive physically, yet, although I’m civil and polite, there’s other people I’d rather spend my time with.

    Who knows?  Maybe it’s a conviction deep down that she’d never consider me “that way” so there’s little point in trying.  Maybe it’s an assumption that she’s “seen it all, heard it all” when it comes to a guy expressing interest (I don’t necessarily mean a pick-up line, but just demonstrating interest).

    I  don’t know if anyone’s actually ever been rejected for being “too beautiful”.  (Since it typically the guys who do the approaching and the women who do the rejecting, I would suspect not), but perhaps for a lot of guys, attractiveness and approachability are inversely proportional traits.

    Of course this probably leaves most of the really good-looking girls to the guys who are extraordinarily confident and/or were born without the shame gene.

  • MH

    Hi there, I think this has been discussed in all of it’s length, but I must add one thing.

    I’m a relationship-type of a guy, and therefore a beta when it comes to seeking a partner (as in I’m not aggressively going for it, I’m not making moves easily etc.). However, in any other part of life (work, hobbies etc.) – this meaning within a group of guys – I’m definetely an alpha. This is why I’ve been approached often by girls who find me attractive when I’m out with my friends (as a leader of that pack). I never ever go to bar in search of company. I hardly really do search for company, because these days I find it uninteresting as hell in every other aspect than this, human psychology. I haven’t ever felt a need to look for better and better one, but it’s funny to see that everyone around do feel that need. But then again, this approach has it’s advantages: I have many friends from opposite sex – beautiful as well – and I’m sure they feel “secure” when talking with me, ’cause they know I’m not going to hit on them. And I’m not, for me they’re more like bunch of lads.

    So, an answer to Todd’s question (which really wasn’t a questions but an assumption) is that yes, I have rejected a lady who I thought was too much above my league. And now, let me explain; it’s not the fact that she’d be above my league NOW, ’cause I can momentarily compensate that. The fact is that I’m primarily looking for a relationship, I assume always women with higher mating value to be too hard to keep. I’m not looking for an easy one, but I’m not going to bring moon from the sky and this is why I must be aware of my value.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I assume always women with higher mating value to be too hard to keep. I’m not looking for an easy one, but I’m not going to bring moon from the sky and this is why I must be aware of my value.

      Beautifully said. This is why pretty women sometimes do have it harder. No one thinks they’re worth the risk. When, in fact, they might just want a boy to love. Outside /= Inside.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Anonymous
    The kind, respectful, compassionate man is very unlikely to approach you and strike up a conversation. He’s had his confidence eroded as he has watched women reward sexual predator types time and time again. If you want a good man, you can’t afford to assume your time will come. Why not approach a man you find attractive? Very pretty women need to signal their interest very clearly, to lower the risk of rejection for the guy. At the very least, you should practice making eye contact and smiling as a form of encouragement. But in general, I encourage women to meet men halfway. The days of traditional courtship are mostly over. There are vestiges of it in online dating, but that’s about it.

  • Esau

    Anonymous: Susan’s is straight-on advice; but I would suggest one refinement:

    Very pretty women need to signal their interest very clearly, to lower the risk of rejection for the guy. 

    I think it’s a bit clearer, and more actionable, if you supplement “interest” additionally with something like “welcoming” or “inviting”.    This makes sense if we expand a little on a remark of yours above:

    This blog you posted says that men are intimidated, which I never realized. I figured that guys would approach someone that they like.

    Don’t assign to intimidation what might more easily be explained as simple cost-benefit analysis.  Yes, a guy will approach someone he finds attractive — but only if he has enough reason to believe it’s not a futile exercise.  Think about it: if a decent guy’s experience has been, as Susan illustrates, getting rejected by pretty girls over and over while they favor reptiles instead, then why should he bother trying again with you?  Really, what are you doing to show that you’re any different from all the others?  Try to answer that question, and it will lead you to a plan of action.

     

     

  • Elle

    Hey all! This post was fascinating and still going after two years. Wow! I was just doing a search because I got dumped for being “too smart” and “too pretty.” (his words not mine) I was like Whhaaaattt????!!  And then I read these insightful posts. I feel like I am entering the lion’s den, but here goes nothing..

    Here lies the problem that I noticed keeps getting proven by every single post – and that is – that we are forced to face an uphill battle. Everyone thinks our lives MUST be super amazing!  That we get anything we want! That we get promotions! That we get all the guys! And [fill in applicable preconceived notion here] MUST be bestowed upon us at any given moment and if it hasn’t — we must be lying about our appearance level…

    I believe people (which I believe studies have backed up) feel much less guilty when insulting someone who they perceive is attractive. In fact, not only do they feel “less guilty” about doing it, but often times they think they have the right to insult attractive people, and find satisfaction in putting them down. It’s like, “Oh, that person couldn’t possibly have feelings.” or “I bet they always have anything they want, so I’ll cut them down a notch!” Is it just me or is that totally twisted and evil?

    I am constantly having to fight an uphill battle to prove myself. I have to work damn hard to get the respect of others. I have to keep my mouth shut, smile, say please and thank you, and stealthily show people I am more than looks and have intelligence, and compassion, and passion, but I have to express myself in a delicate manner, because (god forbid someone having looks and smarts!) I have noticed there are a lot of people out there (who seem like pleasant people otherwise) who are just chomping at the bit to pounce at the slightest  thing an “attractive person” may do or say that could somehow reinforce their preconceived notions about them – that being that we must be totally narcissitic, arrogant, and entitled based on what we look like.

    And is this all in my head? Possibly – hey I am not a mind reader – so sure. Maybe people just don’t like me and I am a flawed person. But I live by the golden rule and my family and friends and those who know me, know I am a very compassionate person, who genuinely cares about others. So the unnecessary preconceived insults against me really is a stab in the gut. I am not Queen Antoinette so stop acting like I am three words shy of getting thrown under the guillotine..

    So I just have one respectful request: Dear men, or actually dear world, Please come talk to people who you think are pretty and don’t run and hide or say sarcastic put downs to “take us off our pedestal” (as someone commented earlier) when we try and talk to you. Instead, say hello, and ask us what our name is, and what we think about some issue of relevance. Ask us anything about anything. Just be normal and treat us normal. Please, pretty please. (pun intended)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Elle
      Thanks so much for your comment. The harshest critics of attractive women are other women. One look at you and they feel envy, resentment, and fear that they won’t be able to successfully compete. There’s nothing you can do about it, except prove yourself to others the way you try now. In general, you’ll find it easier to hang out with other very attractive women.

      The other big problem is that you’re a target for douchebags. The guys who have the confidence to cold approach a beautiful woman are almost never good relationship bets. You have a dilemma because your “natural” mate is probably a man with many options for casual sex. Therefore, you need to select men you find attractive and take the initiative with them. Getting to know someone gradually and providing sustained interest or attention is easier than overwhelming a guy when you’re out and about.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    It’s been a while since I’ve graced this blog… I walked away because I was accused of being vindictive, spiteful and bitter. Whilst I will admit I have had some pretty cruel and humiliating experiences from attractive women I am FAR from bitter… I am a realist. I subscribe to science and other schools of thought that rely on and mandate the existence of evidence before drawing conclusions. I also hold little respect for people who make assumptions, are oblivious to or blatantly reject the need and concepts of vantage point and looking at an issue from other’s perspectives. I do. I think before I speak and I make an effort to never present a statement without evidence or rigorous thought and analysis.

    At SUSAN WALSH

    “Think about it: if a decent guy’s experience has been, as Susan illustrates, getting rejected by pretty girls over and over while they favor reptiles instead, then why should he bother trying again with you?”

    What an absolutely astute observation of yours. However it is unfortunately not the case as illustrated by this comment from ANONYMOUS:

    “I figured that guys would approach someone that they like.”

    Such a statement illustrates how vain and self-absorbed many pretty girls (and people) are in general. Making assumptions that others find them so utterly irresistible that self-conscioussness and intimidation would magically dissipate.

    Further, another incredibly insightful bit of SUSAN’s statement:

    “The kind, respectful, compassionate man is very unlikely to approach you and strike up a conversation. He’s had his confidence eroded as he has watched women reward sexual predator types time and time again.”

    Simply because a man doesn’t take the initiative does not mean he lacks confidence. And ALMOST ALWAYs the confidence exuded by ‘DOUCHE-BAG ALPHA MALEs’ who approach you continually is a front and not true confidence. That type of confidence is falsified and plays into the law of averages and the assumption if enough women are approached a reasonable number of them will be receptive. The Shy, compassionate man possesses genuine interests, ergo his confidence stems from true character. A majority of men and women will NOT put themselves into a vulnerable situation willingly. Particularly when they see signs of that situation resembling past scenarios in which they were severely embarrassed or crassly rejected. i.e. He approaches a beautiful woman and she ignores him, laughs, or cheers on an alpha male who interrupts the conversation and insults him to impress the woman.

    The true problem is most women (and I am not point the finger but I’d be willing to make a hefty wager you fall into this category ANONYMOUS) particularly very attractive women want their cake and to eat it too. They want to have fun with the alpha male DOUCHE-BAGs for their bodies and shallow facade charisma. They invest themselves emotionally in these men to justify succumbing to their lesser animal instincts (even though they truly know these men are not relationship worthy). Then after having their hearts broke time and time again they claim to want a ‘NICE GUY’ to vindicate themselves for continually pursuing or accepting advances from those same ‘DOUCHE-BAG ALPHA MALEs’… in this fashion they can have their fun and be absolved of any responsibility when they are continually used. They were looking for a nice guy, it’s not their fault.

     

    Years later they will look for a compassionate REAL man to settle down with, despite the fact he is a tad over weight, short, bald or lacking in the phallic region. They will pursue these men because they are loyal and financially stable, and not as sexually aggressive, so they won’t be pining and trolling for sex incessantly for as we know the older a woman becomes the less sexually aggressive and active she becomes. She will use him for his stability and perhaps child conception (though in many cases, and my research for a particular screenplay has illustrated such claims, she will have an affair with an alpha male type to ensure optimal genes). In many cases as well, she will have indiscriminate affairs (roughly 2-3) over a 3-4 decade period of her marriage and justify it was a mid-life crisis, never feel guilt or disclose these indiscretions to her spouse, and be even more likely to chide her spouse should he stray despite the fact that she hypocritically did the same.

    These types of women generally are very attractive and from high socio-economic status in urban areas, though it does happen in rural and country arears. Currently these women account for roughly 15%-20% of married women currently in the united states. When I find the link to my research I will post it.

    Again, I have no problem with attractive women (or people in general). My quarrel is with those who fall into that demographic and have the audacity to claim they have such a hard time in love, relationships and the greater aspects of life in general.

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kenny

      The Shy, compassionate man possesses genuine interests, ergo his confidence stems from true character. A majority of men and women will NOT put themselves into a vulnerable situation willingly.

      Agreed. Look, I believe that you describe many attractive women here. Many are indeed entitled and spoiled, used to getting perks and attention for their looks alone, and they learn to capitalize on that. But that does not describe all women, and I really don’t think you can generalize. At the very least, we ought to allow that there are beautiful women of good character who seek meaningful relationships, not attention or status from the masses. If you look over all the comments on this thread, I think you’ll see some of each.

  • Escoffier

    Well, I guess the data can lie, but one problem with the above analysis is that women just don’t seem to cheat that much.  The idea that all these married women are having 2-3 lifetime affairs just seems preposterous.  I suppose respondents could all be lying and God knows I am not the one to leap to the defense of social science methodology, but I give them a certain benefit of the doubt that they know how to screen out at least some of the liars to get a result that is in the ballpark of the truth.

    This will sound very mean but so be it: IME, close to none of the truly physically beautful femals I have known or been around were all that interesting.  This is not to say that they were all dumb. Some were very clearly smart.  But even those appear to have decided that they needn’t put too much effort into intellectual development.  Maybe they calculated their looks would take care of them.  Maybe they were right.

    I was never in the habit of chasing pretty girls but I ended up dating a couple and that sinking feeling by the third date when you know you have run out of things to say forever became depressingly familiar.

    Sorry to all the beautiful geniuses I may have offended.  :-)

    One more consequence of the reanimalization of man: elevate the importance of looks, downgrade the importance of everything else.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    At ELLE

    A blanket statement that attractive people always have life easier is false and moronic (unless obviously made in jest and a satiric manner). Still, the fact that you are attractive and always fighting to be taken seriously might have to do with your desired career. Generally academic or scientific communities are indiscriminate of appearance and are hard on everyone equally, expecting the work to prove their worth.

    In other careers it is rarely the case and having a pretty face, taller stature, ect. will get you farther and that is a proven statement in many business industries.

     

    Further, I contend with the advent of media push of attractive people in advertisements, films, televisions series, and other forms of entertainment these days RARELY are attractive people portrayed as less intelligent. If anything they are portrayed as more intelligent and admirable. So if this does not stem from your personal experiences as being perceived less intelligent due to your looks then you should amend that statement or actually go and watch contemporary entertainment. In contemporary entertainment most ‘village idiots’, creeps and dweebs are portrayed as short, fat, unattractive, unintelligent, undesirable, unsociable, lacking in common sense and the list could go on.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    At ESCOFFIER

    As far as I am aware the data is sound and the fact that the divorce rate in this country is so staggering currently may be some evidence that the data is incredibly accurate and that these types of women account for a large portion of divorce rates (as well as the cheating alpha male types that marry and cheat).

     

    Still in some of your other statements, particularly about pretty girls having little substance are incredibly true. There is much wisdom in you my friend.

     

    ;-)

  • Escoffier

    I dated one very interesting beautiful girl (as in 9/10) but we were so different that it was clear to me that the end result would inevitably be thermonuclear.  Had to walk alway from that one.

    But she was interesting!

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    I by no means strive to make this into a battle of the sexes, but isn’t it funny how a man who’s interested in personality as well as physical traits usually has the good sense to walk away when the fit is wrong… as you have just described.

    Whereas many women will stick around an attractive man who has nothing to offer and justify it with various fickle reasons, the most prominent being he keeps her social status amongst her girlfriends and family high.

     

    And men are portrayed as being superficial and shallow. Well NO WOMAN can accuse you of such a fault ESCOFFIER and nor should you EVER let them try to sir.

    LOL! Good for you.

  • Escoffier

    I wonder about one thing here.  Do women really gain social status for having a merely good looking BF or husband?  Maybe in college, early 20s, from their peers, sure.

    But are there actually mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, teachers, mentors, etc. who are proud when their daughters/students marry hunks just because they are hunks?  Has the whole concept of a “catch” being someone with more than that (good job, some coin, high status, decent morals) totally gone out the window even among the older folks?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do women really gain social status for having a merely good looking BF or husband?

      They will get an initial boost from this, but there are plenty of good-looking guys who make the mistake of becoming supplicating, and then the attraction falls off a cliff. If a guy can have looks or dominance, he is much better off with dominance.

      As a mother, I would say that a guy’s being a catch implies that he is attractive, certainly, but also much more, as you say. Great prospects, good character, good family relationships, etc.

  • Ramble

    But are there actually mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, teachers, mentors, etc. who are proud when their daughters/students marry hunks just because they are hunks?  Has the whole concept of a “catch” being someone with more than that (good job, some coin, high status, decent morals) totally gone out the window even among the older folks?

    You are over-simplifying. Basically, when a girl lands a tall, attractive man, there is a really goof chance that he also has a relatively good job. That is, that tall men (and/or attractive men), on average, are more likely to have “better” jobs than short men.

    There is quite a bit of research out there to support this.

  • Escoffier

    Elle:

    My supposition is that your boyfriend had a lower SMV (I am learning the acronyms!) than you, he knew it, he feared getting dumped, so he just decided to do it preemptively.  And/or he was naturally insecure for whatever reason.  So, the whole fiasco does not reflect poorly on you, not that that’s much consolation.

    Anyway, when I was in college I had a summer job and one of my co-workers was a beautiful blond from the most prestigious (or snobby) sorority on campus.  She inexplicably developed a crush on me.  I had viewed her from the get-go as way out of my league so this was a surprise.  We went on, as I recall, three dates (one of which was to see When Harry Met Sally the day it came out; yeah, long time ago).  As fun and ego-boosting as that was, I knew all along that there was no possiblity of me keeping her for any real length of time.  So I ended it before she could.

    Besides, we had hardly anything in common.  But the point is, preemption happens, so you need to look for a guy who at least THINKS he’s in your league.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Agreed SUSAN

    forgive me if I came off as generalizing. NOT everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt but most do. However a majority of my disdain and attacking demeanor is towards the video highlighted atop the page and attractive women claiming they have it the hardest. Everyone has problems, but I find it disgustingly bias when average looking or unattractive people are told to ‘shut up, everyone has problems’ but the moment a pretty girl cries hardships hordes of men and women flock to their aid and comfort them.

    Perhaps I should do an experiment of my own? If I were to create a forum of the have-nots and less attractive complaining my hypothesis predicts that forum would have considerably less traffic and contributions.

     

    Just a thought though.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ ESCOFFIER

    “But are there actually mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, teachers, mentors, etc. who are proud when their daughters/students marry hunks just because they are hunks?  Has the whole concept of a “catch” being someone with more than that (good job, some coin, high status, decent morals) totally gone out the window even among the older folks?”

    Pretty much yes. There’s a correlation between media suggestion and cultural zeitgeist.

    The media tells you what is of value, even if you try to resist unconsciously and subconsciously you are likely to give into those morals, values and trains of thought.

    This is rhetorical of course, but studies have shown how the overabundance of marketing can easily influence even the most staunchly principled person. If you want to save yourself from all the dry literary research a good example you could watch is ‘THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER SOLD’. This documentary touches down on many of the issues research on marketing has discovered.

  • Ramble

    As a mother, I would say that a guy’s being a catch implies that he is attractive, certainly, but also much more, as you say. Great prospects, good character, good family relationships, etc.

    What a mother sees as a catch and what a 19 year old girl sees as a catch are usually very different things. This is why mothers (and fathers) took great interest in whom their daughters were socializing with. And, yes, I know that you are aware of this.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Touché RAMBLE!

    LOL!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Agreed, solid hit from Ramble.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t think Susan (or anyone) is talking about girls have to make the first move.  It’s more about, if you like a guy who is not a hard charging PUA, there is a strong chance that he will not initiate anything even if he wants to.  So you woud be wise to indidate your interest.  The balance of subtlety and overness can be hard to calibrate but it can be done.

    For instance, in the example I gave above, there was simply no effing way I was going to make a romantic overture to that girl until/unless I was 99% sure that it would not end in a faceplant.  My first thought was “Oh, cool, I get to work next to a pretty blond all summer, that will at least be diverting.”  Not, “Gee, I’d really like to ask her out but it’s scary.”  Asking her out was not just not something that occured to me.  She had to make it clear to me that I had “permission,” which she did in various ways that still did not equal “making the first move.”

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Anonymous,

    “He’s the one who said “If a guy likes you, he will come to you. If he doesn’t come to you, he doesn’t like you. Too bad! ””

    Seriously, your ex-boyfriend is an idiot, and is probably subconsciously trying to sabotage your chances with future men (possibly he’s still got you on a pedestal). I’d also advise not socializing with ex-lovers, it tends to mess with one’s romantic life.

    ” Making assumptions that others find them so utterly irresistible that self-conscioussness and intimidation would magically dissipate.””

    Anony, this is what we men hear, this is what women communicate when they tell us men “if a guy is interested he should approach ME!” They are saying “I don’t want to risk the discomfort of being rejected, so I’m going to dictate that it’s the ‘man’s job’ to get me out of the stress.”

    Honey, I have also had my confidence eroded by being the type of girl that made the first move.   Some people think you’re a slut for making the first move, and others think that something is wrong with you.”

    I don’t want to be harsh, but…so what? Haters gonna hate. Are you going to let that stop you from going after what you want?

    ” It’s about not ruining your chances at getting a meaningful relationship. ”

    But if you never end up talking to the guy, there’s not going to be a “chance” to begin with. Only a player or a guy with a hard-on for Victorian “traditionalism” is going to dock you off the relationship ladder for approaching him. You have greater chances approaching men than you do waiting for them to approach you. I invite you to live in men’s minds for a bit; most of us have been so incredibly burned (I’m talking dozens, hundreds of times) that we are not going to line up for another firing squad. It’s on the “pretty girls” to make it beyond obvious we aren’t going to get blown out.

  • Anonymous

    I must bring up something that I feel is misunderstood among many people. Many people say things like “I’m not just pretty, I’m smart too”, or “I don’t care if she’s pretty, she has to be intelligent” etc. They act as if the looks were a God given gift, and the intelligence is something they’ve earned. LOL! Saying “I can’t stand stupid people” is nearly as bad as saying “I can’t stand people with down syndrome”, or “I hate short people”. Intelligence is NOT a choice. Did you ever know a dumb person, then lose contact with him or her, then 5 years later you meet them again, and wow, now they are smart? Me neither. They can become educated, and have some more wisdom or knowledge, but intelligent they won’t become.

    Ever notice how humor and wit are directly tied into intellect? Dumb people don’t find anything funny! Ditzy women find their own jokes funny, but completey miss the witty, good ones that you tell.

    As I have posted here before, I believe, I find women of average intelligence very attractive. I don’t find fault with dumb ones either, as I know it is not their fault. Before you respond to this with disagreement, saying that dumb people can do this or they can do that to better themselves, blah, blah. They won’t do it…….that’s why they are dumb.

     

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Selfless and compassionate to those with less than you…

    I’m really starting to like you ANONYMOUS ;-)

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “and a few relationship books”

    The reason there are so many relationship books every year is that the old ones don’t work. A cynic would think they were creating their own market by perpetuating the singleness of their market.

     

  • anonymous

    Badger:  “Anony, this is what we men hear, this is what women communicate when they tell us men “if a guy is interested he should approach ME!” They are saying “I don’t want to risk the discomfort of being rejected,

    Not at all. Women avoid approaching men because of fear, but not fear of rejection, fear for their safety. Men may think it’s irrational, but I think it’s instinctual, not to think that every man will hurt her, but to be cautious. So you can become aware of it, but you can’t eliminate it nor should you because it’s there for a reason.

    Anon

    So you woud be wise to indidate your interest.  The balance of subtlety and overness can be hard to calibrate but it can be done.

    the above is your best recourse. As an attractive female, when I approached a couple of shy guys they thought I’d be easy, so I’d advise against it unless it’s a person you already know something about (like that they don’t already have a gf).

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    ANONYMOUS

    Then it seems you are one of those women who won’t give a man a second thought if he is not the archetype ‘PRINCE CHARMING’. Suffice it to say a majority of ‘Dashing’ looking men are of the PUA persuasion, as many stunning women are of the stuck-up or shallow end of the pool… I won’t apologize, stereotypes exist for a reason… THEY’RE USUALLY TRUE. It’s the shy and not conventionally attractive men who would be right for you, but I’m fairly certain you’ve power-slammed them all into the dreaded ‘friend-zone’ before they could utter the word date.

    You do want the PUA type, you’re just not willing to admit it, and you want to ‘tame’ those bad-boys to your liking. You can’t have it both ways ANONYMOUS. You either get the hunky asshole or the coy but respectful plain guy. No one’s telling you to date Quazi Modo, but for claiming to be so intelligent you’re fairly quick to overlook a pervasive fact many people have easily grasped since child-hood… The more desirable you are the sweater you are treated, and an excess of candy usually rots your teeth.

    Please don’t ask me to explain that metaphor… for the love of Pete!

  • Escoffier

    Simple, you will be hit on by predators and by nice(ish) guys with a lot of confidence.  The balance will run strongly in favor of the former over the latter.  If you like strong-willed guys with a sense of decency (there are some, not many) this is a good way to go, if you don’t mind shooting down a lot of gamesters because they will be all over you, especially any time you go to a bar or social event with any kind of “singles” scene.

    The average man will not throw himself at a hot girl.  He might do it once or twice in his life if he’s absolutely smitten but for him it’s like jumping off a cliff or out of a plane.  It takes all the courage he can muster and no matter how it turns out he’s not eager to do it again soon.  Very nerve-wracking.

    Hardly anyone worries about “coming on too strong.”  The PUA least of all.  He doesn’t care.  He will come on strong as a strategy.  It leaves you in no doubt of what he intends, you will likely respond quickly and unambiguously, he knows instantly if he has a shot, if not ne moves on, done.

    The average guy is not worried about coming on too strong.  He’s worried about being rejected and looking/feeling like a fool.  Even a nice, “soft” rejection really stings and makes him wish to God he hadn’t jumped.  A snide, dismissive or contemptuous rejection just hurts like hell.  Like the chute didn’t even open.

  • Escoffier

    I remember when “The Rules” came out in the mid-’90s.  It made a huge splash, sold a zillion copies, etc.

    I’m just saying, it depends on the kind of guy you want.  If you play by “the rules” as strictly defined in the book, you will only attract one or two sorts.  Or, you might attract some other kinds, but they will give up pretty early, one because he realizes you’re not an easy lay, the other because he thinks you’re too aloof.

    What you have to do, and I am afraid I have no specific advice on how, is if you notice someone you like but whom you sense is not going to have the bravado to approach you cold, you need to telegraph to him in subtle but unmistakable ways that he is welcome to try and that it’s not going to end badly for him (at least not at first; who knows where it might end).  Don’t be surprised if it takes him a while to catch on.  At first he will simply not notice.  The next stage, he will notice but not believe.  “Nah, can’t be, I’m misinterpreting.”  Then it will start to dawn. “She’s really interested but … but … it’s still too scary.”  Then finally, if he his not gay, asexual, uninterested, or a total coward, he will make his bid.  Be prepared for that to be underwhelming and timid.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anonymous

    From my experience, I don’t get approached much outside of extremely social situations that have alcohol (Ex: Parties, Bars, Clubs). It seems like most men need a little “liquid courage” before they approach me. That’s why I take the liberty of approaching the men I find interesting. I know that approach/rejection anxiety is pretty rough for some men, so I cut them off at the pass to make things easier.

    The type of men who do approach me in everyday life situations are usually of the cad persuasion. They are typically the guys with the most bloated egos, so they think they have better odds of getting my attention. I avoid them like the plague, however, because their extreme puffed up sense of pride is a turn off.

    Also, when I say that I approach men, I mean that I strike up friendly conversations, convey flirty body language, and show genuine interest in who they are. After that, I typically allow the men to take the lead. They either get my number, ask me out on a date, or they make no effort to get to know me further. The ball is in their court at that point, but at least I show them that I am completely in the game by not being afraid of initiating contact.

  • anonymous

    Sassy: “Also, when I say that I approach men, I mean that I strike up friendly conversations, convey flirty body language, and show genuine interest in who they are. After that, I typically allow the men to take the lead.”

    Worth repeating

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  • tmunson

    If you think good looking is hard, try not good looking. 5 minutes at Sun Valley Idaho or a similar destination will answer this question definitively.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    AMEN TMUNSON!

     

    (Disclaimer: this is in complete jest as I am an atheist)

  • Lance

    There is a bimodal  distribution to the comments that may be telling. One group of self described attractive women state that they experience frequent unwanted attention from men and that this is a big problem in their lives. A second group of self described attractive women state that their beauty is too intimidating to men, and thus they rarely get approached by men, which is a big problem in their lives.  (amusingly I have seen both perspecitves in the same post a few times, but that may be a different issue)

    The only explaination (theroy) that I can think of to reconcile these two divergent viewpoints is that the self described attractive women subconciously screen out average looking men and only notice 8s, 9s. and 10s. I call this the ‘average joe’ effect (after the TV show). When an attractive woman says she doesn’t care about looks, it really means she doesn’t care if a guy is an 8, 9 o r10. There is a whole world of average, and *omg* below average, looking guys that the typical attractive woman considers so far beneath them, that  they don’t even register in their consious as a potential match. Their focus is narrowed to only those 8, 9 and 10 males. And the self described attractive women in the second group are gettting approached by average looking guys freqently but those experiences are just not registering in their memories because their focuses are so narrow. On the other hand, maybe they are not getting approached, because they are just not as attractive as they think they are.

     

     

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lance
      Interesting comment, thanks for leaving it. It’s entirely possible that people are miscalculating their true attractiveness level. I know of one personal case – the young woman is extremely attractive (certainly prettier than the woman who cries in the video), is always offered free stuff, etc. She does get a lot of attention from hot guys, but it is the kind of attention she does not want. They are nearly always cads, looking for easy sex or an ego-validating conquest. She has had two relationships, both with very average looking guys. One cheated, and the other basically wrecked the relationship with excessive jealousy and fear that she would get poached. In both of those cases, she had to make her interest known – neither would have ever made a move.

      What she really wants is to be in love, yet she is in a “niche” with few takers.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ LANCE

    You are a man of great wisdom. Unfortunately none of the pining, whining, sobbing ‘PRETTY GIRLs’ will take notice…

    … that is unless, of course, you’re an 8, 9 or 10.

     

    ;-)

  • ruth

    during my college days was 9 _10.accomplished.constantly stared at. conscious and had abnormal life.lonely since girls kept away.most guys did same.a player app.friendly.flattering.luckily nothing happened.few years later i realised .felt bad 2think i spoke 2and thought good of someone who probab had evil designs on me.

  • Lance

    @susan. I am 45, and thus quite a bit older than the girls and guys that are the subject of your film, and thus not the most qualified to courter such claims. You don’t say but I am going to guess completely out of the blue that  the girl you are describing is a 20 year old college student, goes to a liberal arts college where the girls out number guys 3:2. Majors in some gyno centric maojr like Literature, does yoga, and the only men she meets are at bars or frat parties on the weekend. And she has a check list for men that includes: similar education and interests to hers. My point is, a lot of women choose life styles that provide them with expose to only players rather than normal men. And although there are certainly exceptions, I am going to remain skeptical of  any claim by a highly attrractive woman that says she dates average looking guys.(at least none of them claim that they date below average looking guys), when the subject of women’s perceptions of male attractiveness comes up I am reminded of a dating website (can not remember which one) survey that revealed that the women on the site found that 80% of the men on the site were below average in looks.

  • WarmWoman

    So, Lance-How do you gauge what your true level of attractiveness is?

    It’s tricky, because even other people’s opinions are subjective. You may have some people complimenting your looks, while others don’t like your looks. I know people who drool over Aishwarya Rai, while some other men think she looks like an alien.

    While I’m not expecting a male to be a so-called 8-10 (I don’t like the rating system to begin with), I would prefer the sexual attraction to be there. Sexual attraction doesn’t necessarily have to do with looks only though. Women are drawn to intelligence, personality, charisma, etc. I’ve also seen very attractive men with average-looking women. These good-looking men say it’s her confidence, sense of grace and loyalty that won their heart.

  • LokLand

    @WarmWoman

    Get a note pad.
    For the next 100 guys that hit on you write down their attractieness level (SMV).
    When your done remove the 10 top and bottom numbers from your list.
    Average the remaining 80 numbers.
    That is how attractive you are.

    (You referring to any woman in general.)

  • WarmWoman

    I don’t rate guys though, if that’s what you mean by SMV. I just say they’re attractive, average or below average.

    May I ask how attractive you think you are? I’m just curious. You don’t have to answer.

  • WarmWoman

    I forgot to add that what if the person that I find very attractive is considered average to unattractive to others? That has happened before.

  • LokLand

    Hot or not.com is also another option though not as good pictures don’t tend to be as good as the real world.

    Depends what you mean. Guys attractiveness tends to be more fluid and dependent on more than just the physical.

    For example, I am a GOD in the kitchen. When I cooked dinner for my now fiance on our second date (which was by far the most memorable date I have had with any other human being ever) I’m fairly positive I could have been a solid 17.6 out of 10. (Parents owned a couple restaurants growing up, I learned my way around fairly quick… got nothing on my brother though.)

    Same thing when I get really focused on my work, deep mental involvement, kinda pull a House and just stare at nothing while thinking. Can’t tell you the number of times that has gotten me laid. (Smart me, I just fake it now.)

    Stick me in a bar I’m probably a 2.4. I prefer to drink and relax with friends, large crowds of strangers tend to put me on edge. I’m naturally introverted with strangers but give me an introduction and I tend to be more than fine. Stick me with my friends I’m probably at what I would call my “normal” SMV. Beats the hell outta me what that would be.

    Physically say 6-8 depends who you ask. I’ll just got and peg it at a 12 to make life easy. My biggest down fall is being 5′ 7″ if it wasn’t for that I’d be perfect :(, alas theres only so much awesome you can fit in such a small package :).

    A womans attractiveness level is entirely dependent on looks. Nothing else matters. (Other stuff matters in a LTR sense but physical attractiveness is all that makes a guys blood flow. She can be dumb as a stick or the current Einstein it really doesn’t matter to the lower head.)

    As for the inability to rate peoples attracetiveness. Bad on you. Some people are ugly others aren’t.
    The only reason you wouldn’t want to judge someone is because you think it would offend them.
    The only reason you think it would offend them is because you associate being ugly as being a negative in someway.
    Being ugly is just what someone is, it is not a bad thing. Same way that being hot isn’t a good thing its just the way they are. Stop judging people so much :P

  • WarmWoman

    Seriously, I don’t know how this rating system works, especially when everything is so subjective and relative to comparison. The people I hang around with in real life don’t rate people, but simply use the words “beautiful, hot, attractive, cute, etc.” How am I supposed to know what makes someone a 10?

  • WarmWoman

    Sorry Lockland, but I’m not comfortable with freely using the word ugly. I do think it’s a hurtful thing to say to someone. You can keep your opinion, and I will keep mine.

  • LokLand

    @ WarmWoman

    Thats fine. People have different opinions.
    I don’t go around calling people ugly, I also don’t go around calling people hot… thats just strange.

    @ The Article
    (I have not read a single comment but the previous few.)
    Shocker coming here for the ladies.

    Being a 10 on the SMV scale lowers your value on the relationship scale.
    They are two seperate and distinct scales that are inversely related.

    Hard to grasp but being really, really hot is a negative for a relationship. Unless said guy is looking for a trophy wife.

    Doesn’t mean said woman needs to be unhappy and unloved but she does have to work harder to earn it. Just a fact of life.
    (The only example I can think of is the beta male learning game to increase his SMV,pretty woman have to work to increase their RMV.)

    P.S I’m a little drunk but I feel my grammar has actually improved.

  • WarmWoman

    Haha thanks for that tip…Then, the ladies won’t feel bad for not being a 10. ;)

    We all age, so I don’t know how many people manage to stay a 10 throughout their lives.

  • Jess

    PMD,
    Im sorry you had the experiences you have had- I have seen it many times over the years.

    And Im sorry some here haven’t taken your comments a bit more seriously- I think its a grass is greener thing.

    I would recommend avoiding skirts for aiding relations with both the guys and the girls

    and don’t be afraid to make a move on a guy or strike up a conversation with girl you would like to be friends with. If you are pretty some people will think you are aloof- so you have to show you are not

    Best of luck though hon, J

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @WarmWoman

    Seriously, I don’t know how this rating system works, especially when everything is so subjective and relative to comparison. The people I hang around with in real life don’t rate people, but simply use the words “beautiful, hot, attractive, cute, etc.” How am I supposed to know what makes someone a 10?

    May I join the ocnversation? :)

    A few months ago, I asked several close male friends (and one of my brothers) what they thought my number was. I asked them individually and in private so that they wouldn’t feel pressured to give different answers just so they wouldn’t hurt my feelings. Then I added up the numbers, divided the sum by the number of respondents, and considered that my attractiveness rating.

    Was it totally subjective? Of course! But it’s real value to me was, first of all, the way it opened my eyes to the kind of men I was already attracting, based on looks alone. (My super geeky friends, for instance, rated me much lower than my more “mainstream” friends–which really surprised me.) Secondly, it made me pay more attention to my appearance because I learned I wasn’t getting away with the laid back, geeky chick look. :P

    The “Gendersphere” theory is that women often fail to find partners simply because they’re aiming far above their own level. For instance, a woman who is aiming for a “10” man but only gets propositioned by men whom she would rate a “7” should start admitting to herself that “7” is as good as it’s going to get for her. The men who come on to a woman are her most objective mirrors.

    I believe this is also the reasoning behind LokLand’s suggested exercise in #293. If you prefer adjectives to numbers, then give yourself a good range of modifiers, stick to it, and see whether the men who come on to you are closer to “Gorgeous” or to “Pleasant” or to “Awkward” or to whatever. The reflection in these “mirrors” won’t encapsulate the whole you, of course, but they’ll give you a better sense of how you appear to masculine eyes.

  • Matt T

    Eh, I wouldn’t worry too much about numbers. That’s more of an internet meme and a way of guys bagging average girls to brag about scoring “9.5s”. Most guys don’t see a girl and think “that’s a 6.7″.

    What most guys use is a simplified scale that only has 4 points.

    1) Warthog: Obese or deformed she-beast that barely deserves the title of human. I wouldn’t hit it without taking enough vodka to kill an elephant.
    2) Okay: I’d hit it but not see her in public.
    3) Cute: I’d hit it and like to see her in public.
    4) Hot: But probably not an option for me :(

  • Sassy6519

    @ Bellita

    The only problem with LokLand’s suggested exercise is that a few variables skew the results. According to our understanding of hypergamy, women get an inflated sense of SMV due to the notion that men above them in SMV approach them often and obtain only easy sex from them. Combine that with the fact that the extroverted and confident men are doing the majority of the approaching, and that hedges most women’s numbers arbitrarily higher than most would believe them to be, using his equation.

    I think the best way to base a woman’s SMV would be to judge the attractiveness of the men who have committed to her. This way, it weeds out the men who have approached her for sex only. It takes out the inflated hypergamy induced bias, since it seems rational to think that a man with relatively high SMV would be hesitant to commit to any woman who wasn’t at the same level or higher than him in SMV.

    Think of it this way. A woman is approached by 100 men. Of the 100 men, 20% have high SMV (7-10) in her opinion while 80% have lower SMV (1-6) in her opinion. This coincides with the idea that women generally only find 20% of men attractive. Let’s say that the woman sleeps with a few of the men with high SMV. She might believe that she has a high SMV due to the fact that high SMV males approached her and slept with her. The problem is that, unlike women, men have no qualms with sleeping with women who may be below them in SMV. The catch occurs when high SMV males want to find a woman to commit to. The tables turn then and high SMV males seek out women who have equal or greater SMV than they do. If they are to give up all their other options, they typically choose an attractive woman to date.

    If a woman can’t get a high SMV male (7-10) to commit to her, then the chances of her having high SMV (7-10) are slim. If only men who have decently high SMV (5 or 6) are willing to commit to her, then her number is around there. If, however, a woman is able to have a high SMV male (7-10) commit to her, then her number is probably around there as well.

  • GudEnuf

    Might I dare to ask how to an average looking guy can get an attract a dissatisfied hot girl?

  • Sassy6519

    @ GudEnuf

    Your answer is pretty simple. In order for a man to boost his overall attractiveness to women if his physical attractiveness isn’t very high, he could increase his chances of landing a hot girl by;

    1. Increasing how much money he makes
    2. Being in a position of perceived power
    3. Improving his physical appearance

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Just wanted to note that I wrote up the four point scale a while back:

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/the-badgers-four-point-scale/

    Shameless plug over.

    “Might I dare to ask how to an average looking guy can get an attract a dissatisfied hot girl?”

    Well,
    1. Have something she finds attractive
    2. Ignore her beauty

    The interesting thing is that our hindbrains don’t really know our own “ranks,” they really only know how attractive we want our partners to be to motivate us to engage in the marketplace. This is most evident among homely girls who can’t get their spirits up for anything less than a future senator, but it also goes in the other direction – a hot girl who has a low opinion of her value can be courted by a regular dude if his game is tight enough to make her feel good when she’s around him. Although it helps to have a shitload of money.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Sassy

    I think the best way to base a woman’s SMV would be to judge the attractiveness of the men who have committed to her.

    I agree with you that it’s equally relevant data, but in this case, I think Warm Woman was asking about SMV in isolation from R(elationship)MV.

    Combine that with the fact that the extroverted and confident men are doing the majority of the approaching, and that hedges most women’s numbers arbitrarily higher than most would believe them to be, using his equation.

    Another good point! I’m not sure exactly what LokLand meant by “hitting on,” but if I did this exercise, I wouldn’t count only the men who were obviously chatting me up to try to get my number. I’d also count, for instance, the clerk who calls out a flirty greeting when I walk past his counter. My reasoning, based on what many male commenters have said, is that lots of men who are too shy to make a definite move on women they’re attracted to (and who have comparable SMV) would absolutely delighted if the women initiated with them. Also, such flirty incidents didn’t just happen to me all the time, but increased remarkably after I started working on my appearance so that I looked more feminine, so I think it’s relevant data.

  • GudEnuf

    @Sassy6519

    Susan hinted that hot girls will date average guys. I’m wondering how they did it.

  • WarmWoman

    Bellita-I think we women can sense when a man is checking us out, but won’t approach us. That could be considered too. A man won’t stare at you for nothing. Something about you is catching his eye….unless there’s something really weird about us, haha.

    Going by sassy’s advice, the man that was the most loyal and committed to me was ironically the best-looking man that I’ve dated. Other co-workers found him very cute, while some of my friends thought he was just “okay.”

    I had an ex from years ago that told me, “You always go out of your league. You’re not pretty enough for the guys that you like, and you’re going to have accept that. I’m trying to help you, so you won’t get rejected.” What’s funny is that I did end up falling in love with a man where there was mutual physical attraction. Sadly, I wasn’t that attracted to my ex who made those comments.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @WarmWoman

    Well, if you have a guy who is very attractive to you and is committed to you, then I think you know your SMV! ;)

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ WARM WOMAN

    “So, Lance-How do you gauge what your true level of attractiveness is?

    It’s tricky, because even other people’s opinions are subjective. ”

    Yeeeaaah… I’m pretty sure LANCE supported his statement with numerical data… Oh wait… no… yes… no… no… YES!

    “(at least none of them claim that they date below average looking guys), when the subject of women’s perceptions of male attractiveness comes up I am reminded of a dating website (can not remember which one) survey that revealed that the women on the site found that 80% of the men on the site were below average in looks.”

    EMPHASIS: ” survey that revealed that the women on the site found that 80% of the men on the site were below average in looks.”

    Yeeaaah… pretty sure that’s quantifiable data, NOT subjective.

    AGAIN @ WARM WOMAN

    “Sexual attraction doesn’t necessarily have to do with looks only though. Women are drawn to intelligence, personality, charisma, etc. I’ve also seen very attractive men with average-looking women.”

    Then why have there been NUMEROUs studies illustrating am man who’m posses a combination of those traits WITH money as well, he will lose out to another man a majority of the time simply because he is 5’4″ – 5’7″. Many similar studies have correlated similar data for overweight men, and I’m sure others have been conducted pertaining to traits I am not even aware of.

    This data DOES NOT state men of generous weight or lacking in height stand little to no chance, it simply shows that a majority of women are less forgiving and as shallow and discriminating of “PHYSICAL ATTRACTION” (as you so call it) as man can be and are. Since women’s lib women are equal… I support equal rights personally, that being said it’s time you start sharing in some responsibility and accepting you are just a superficial creatures as we men.

    Opinions are opinions, studied data is agreed-upon and therefore can be accepted as fact, NOT opinion.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Sorry for the typo…

    *a man

    NOT am man… lol!

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ LOKLAND

    “A womans attractiveness level is entirely dependent on looks. Nothing else matters. (Other stuff matters in a LTR sense but physical attractiveness is all that makes a guys blood flow. She can be dumb as a stick or the current Einstein it really doesn’t matter to the lower head.)”

    An I was starting to like you man… but that was a pretty bone-headed statement. I personally find ditzy, stupid or dumb women revolting… even if I’m ONLY looking for a hook-up or One Night Stand. I have to have a bit of a connection at the least to make the sex good, or at least sufficient… otherwise I might as well save all the money on drinks and a cab and just date my hand for that night.

    And in terms of a long term relationship she had better be damn smart, I enjoy debate, existentialism and word-play so if she’s a brick I wouldn’t see being wither her the next 5 minutes, much less the rest of my life.

    You need to seriously reassess how you view women in general sir. If the greater majority of men feel the same as you then being 5’5″ myself I suppose the taller you get the dumber you get… and apparently that’s what a majority of women like… ?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    WarmWoman meant subjective in the sense that people’s personal preferences shape their views on other people’s attractiveness. Physical attractiveness isn’t an objective measure because it is influenced by bias. For example, a woman could be viewed as a 7 by one man, a 6 by another man, and a 5 by a third man. Man #2 could have given her a 6 due to the fact that he may prefer blondes over brunettes, and the woman in question was a brunette. Man # 3 could have given her a 5 because he prefers blondes over brunettes and blue eyes over brown eyes, and the woman in question was a brunette with brown eyes. There is no way to separate personal preferences from judgements of physical attractiveness.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ WARM WOMAN

    “Sorry Lockland, but I’m not comfortable with freely using the word ugly. I do think it’s a hurtful thing to say to someone. You can keep your opinion, and I will keep mine.”

    Yeah, I may feel LOKLAND is pretty Neanderthal-ish for his view on women… but at least he’s astute on the whole ugly thing…

    You’re pretty naive WARM WOMAN… Ugly is ugly… words can only hurt you if you let them. I’m NOT conservative but I’m really sick of all this pussy-footing around everyone’s feelings liberal bullshit mentality in this country AND IT HAS TO STOP!

    It’s not opinions, it’s weakness and it’s turning our country into a bunch of pussies. This recession would have been over with 4 years ago if our current politicians (RIGHT and LEFT) would stop trying to appease everyone for fear of offending the 5%, grow some balls and actually get things done.

    You’re naive WARM WOMAN… UGLY is what it is… UGLY.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ SASSY

    “Physical attractiveness isn’t an objective measure because it is influenced by bias.”

    Well the data starkly contradicts what you seem to believe… particularly in the short man study the female test subjects overwhelmingly chose a certain archetype when given drawing or photos and measuring there level of attraction towards those visual cues. That archetype was strikingly close to what is portrayed by the media and modeling agencies… and the woman’s perception of that man’s attractiveness only dropped when the picture revealed he may be of shorter stature.

    It’s SC-I-I-I-IENCE…

  • Mike

    @ Kenny #314

    [“A womans attractiveness level is entirely dependent on looks. Nothing else matters. (Other stuff matters in a LTR sense but physical attractiveness is all that makes a guys blood flow. She can be dumb as a stick or the current Einstein it really doesn’t matter to the lower head.)”]

    “An I was starting to like you man… ”

    I think you took Lok’s comment farther than his intent. We’re talking the very initial impression. What’s the first thing that you notice?

    What she looks like.

    All other things are secondary. So Lok IS correct in his statement. You can see a really hot girl in a calendar or magazine and have not one iota of knowledge about whether she works for Habitat for Humanity or thinks Hungary was the capital of Europe.

    The initial attraction is looks and it’s what makes you want to approach someone to then find out if this person is a ditz or has a head on her shoulders capable of more than just sucking motions.

    Lok, feel free to correct me if i’m wrong.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ BELLITA

    I’m far to lazy to quote all the points you made… but take that as flattery because there were more than a fair few. You’re obviously cute (as far as I can tell from your tiny Avatar). The thing most appealing about you is your are cute, probably even very attractive (were I too see a sufficient picture)… and yet you’re NOT PISSING AND MOANING about how “hard” it is, how cursed it is to be beautiful…

    ;-)

    Good for you girl… you’ll go far. (In all sincerity).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    You are missing the point entirely. People’s views of attractiveness are subjective measures, not objective. Science can’t even do away with preferential bias on this subject because beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. What one man finds attractive could be completely different from what another man finds attractive. They are both valid assessments of beauty, but the outcomes are colored by bias.

    Even in the study you talk about, the results would be thrown out the window if the women in the sample size happened to include women who didn’t have a strong bias for tall men over short men. There are indeed women out there who don’t care about a man’s height. The shortest guy I ever dated came up to my chin. My friends prefer taller men, but I don’t care one way or the other.

    Things that are measured objectively include time, distance, temperature, etc. Physical attractiveness is not one of those things. There is no preset or standardized scale that we view attractiveness on. Physical attractiveness isn’t objective because we all use different criteria to measure and make our decisions instead of a standardized and universal scale such as the metric system, Fahrenheit or Celsius, etc.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ SASSY6519

    If that’s your stance that studies dealing with personal leanings on a given subject then by your definition all Psychological, Sociological and Psychiatric methodologies are moot and crank sciences.

    I’m just correlating the logical conclusion based on your statement.

  • Lavazza

    Kenny, yeah, and it would be impossible use those sciences in marketing, politics etc.

  • LokLand

    @ Mike and Kenny

    Mike you had my point fully laid out.
    Sexual attrativeness for a woman is entirely dependent on looks. Nothing else.
    Relationship attracetiveness (sober- bad grammar back) is dependent on a multitude of things, I’ve been in relationships with one crazy and one stupid. NEVER AGAIN. But I would still put my penis in them if given the chance. (And was single. Cheating is a no no.)

    @Sassy, Kenny

    Your both right in a way.
    There are universal things that are attractive for men and women.
    Women- wasit-hip ratio, tits, etc.
    Men- height, alpha looks.
    Theres also stuff that is generic ex. clear complexion.

    So yes the more of these qualities a person has the more attractive they will be in general. At the same time the importance of each individual trait differs person to person.
    A persons SMV is the average of these trait values but their specfic SMV to a certain indivdual could be slightly different but not extremely.
    For example, a guy who is an eight. No one will call him a one its just a fact of life.

    However for men SMV is also dependent on non-physical factors aka social dominance, competence and confidence. (To sum it VERY generally.)
    And hence need to be factored in as well whereas for women not so much.

    @ Kenny

    Now as for being short.

    Guess what, you will NEVER be some womans dream man. Intially.
    I’m 5′ 7″ so I have a bit on you but I will also NEVER be a womens dream man. Intially.

    But guess what, I’m a dream changer. My fiance may not have dreamed of me before but I’m all thats in her head (among other things) now.
    So my response to the FACT that I will never be the hottest man ever. I don’t need to be hot, if I was anymore awesome I could never be monogamous.

    Also on the short thing, when I was younger I learned a few things.
    I have naturally wide shoulders, made me look stubby. I was also chubby.

    Learning how to dress is UBER UBER UBER UBER important. Personal style also matters.
    Your body has to be perfect. Not just good, perfect is the only thing thats acceptable. I hit the gym every morning 6 am till 7:30. Cardio and weights. Except weekends so not everyday.
    Don’t wear raised shoes its pathetic.
    Don’t point your head up to talk to people just look up with your eyes (within reason). At the same time I also never tilt my head down to speak to someone (excluding my fiance and mother).
    Have money. (If you don’t think you can its actually quite easy. I paid my way through Uni without a scholarship and I didn’t have a “job”.)

    I feel like some of the articles I read as a kid. Oh well.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    Psychology, Sociology, and Psychiatry are soft sciences by definition. Physics and chemistry are examples of hard sciences. The soft sciences can’t help but be colored by bias and preferences because humans are the subject matter. Nothing is absolute and nothing is standardized when it comes to humans. We vary and with that variance comes bias.

    Unlike the soft sciences, one cannot argue about the measurements used with hard sciences because they are standardized and agreed upon by all. For example, the freezing point of water is 32 degrees Fahrenheit or 0 degrees Celsius. No one can claim otherwise because the result has been scientifically proven without any variation. If someone said water froze at 35 degrees Fahrenheit, they would be completely wrong. There is no chance that their opinion would be correct. However, if a man said a woman was a 6, that information would be true, but it could only be applied in regards to him. If another man came along after the first man and said the same woman was an 8, he would also be correct, but the result could only be applied in regards to him again. There is too much variation due to bias because the measurements are created from people without the ability to be 100% objective. It’s impossible.

    I have a psychology degree, so I don’t think all soft sciences are moot or crank sciences. I am aware, however, that any scientific findings from studies can only be applied to a part of the population and not the entire human race because of our natural variances. No study can predict human behavior accurately 100% of the time. Once again, it’s impossible.

  • Anonymous

    @ Sassy

    Actually. The kilogran is held somewhere in France. Its exact weight changes very marginally on a day to day basis. It is The Kilogram upon which all other measurements of weight are carried out. Same for The Metre, its length changes marginally. Marginally being after a decimal and a lot of 0’s.

    Now I’ll defend my method for determining SMW.

    We could argue back and forth over whether more or less attractive guys approach a woman of a certain SMV. However my method accounts for both possibilities, for example a random smattering of 10 numbers.

    2 5 6 7 5 6 7 5 6 7 10. Okay so 11 numbers not 10 but, the 10 and 2 are obviously outliers and the average of the remaining is obviously 6.

    Say a woman did this for one hundred men and then removed the top and bottom 10 maybe even 20 then she removes the outliers. This would leaver her with the average/median/middle ish group of numbers.
    And again I want to stress a point I made in a post that is still in moderation.
    SMV is subjective but not that much. A man who is an 8 to one woman will not be a 2 to another the numbers will generally be the same. Hence the point of taking the average views of many average people.

    Now the idea for determining SMV for commitement. Horrible idea.

    Someone mentioned we were measuring SMV not RMV so yes two very different qualities. SMV does not land you commitement only more attention.
    Another point I think I can see as a guy that most woman would gloss over is that this method would dramatically raise a certain womans SMV.
    The reasoning, she chooses who to be committed to as well and as we know women trade up. So most of the men that commit to her will be by her own selection factors have a higher SMV than herself.
    For example, if a girl gets hit on by a 5 6 7 and 10 and the 10 decides to commit ( and he is the only one she chooses to commit to) you can’t automatically assume shes a 10. We could assume she sees herself as a 10 but that is not the same as her percieved SMV.

    So going back to my original method let me modify and improve the clairty of my explanation.
    To define being hit on. I honestly don’t know because it would automatically eliminate shy guys. However shy guys themeselves by virtue of being shy have a low SMV so if we disclude them the ladies SMV will become inflated but I see no way to realistically include them.

    Now for my last scenario. A very good looking woman. She is going to get hit on by 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 9 9 9 9 9 9 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 7 7 7 7 7 etc. It would be illogical to eliminate the top and bottom numbers if a very obvious skew occured because there is no one better/wose that can hit on her. So her SMV would need to be calculated in a different way. However since this only applies to the 1’s and 10’s its practically a nonissue.

    So lastly, the women is required to rate the men that approach her. But again we run into the problem of being subjective, some would say 6 others 8. This has already been argued for previously.

  • Lokland

    @ Sassy

    Actually. The kilogran is held somewhere in France. Its exact weight changes very marginally on a day to day basis. It is The Kilogram upon which all other measurements of weight are carried out. Same for The Metre, its length changes marginally. Marginally being after a decimal and a lot of 0’s.

    Now I’ll defend my method for determining SMW.

    We could argue back and forth over whether more or less attractive guys approach a woman of a certain SMV. However my method accounts for both possibilities, for example a random smattering of 10 numbers.

    2 5 6 7 5 6 7 5 6 7 10. Okay so 11 numbers not 10 but, the 10 and 2 are obviously outliers and the average of the remaining is obviously 6.

    Say a woman did this for one hundred men and then removed the top and bottom 10 maybe even 20 then she removes the outliers. This would leaver her with the average/median/middle ish group of numbers.
    And again I want to stress a point I made in a post that is still in moderation.
    SMV is subjective but not that much. A man who is an 8 to one woman will not be a 2 to another the numbers will generally be the same. Hence the point of taking the average views of many average people.

    Now the idea for determining SMV for commitement. Horrible idea.

    Someone mentioned we were measuring SMV not RMV so yes two very different qualities. SMV does not land you commitement only more attention.
    Another point I think I can see as a guy that most woman would gloss over is that this method would dramatically raise a certain womans SMV.
    The reasoning, she chooses who to be committed to as well and as we know women trade up. So most of the men that commit to her will be by her own selection factors have a higher SMV than herself.
    For example, if a girl gets hit on by a 5 6 7 and 10 and the 10 decides to commit ( and he is the only one she chooses to commit to) you can’t automatically assume shes a 10. We could assume she sees herself as a 10 but that is not the same as her percieved SMV.

    So going back to my original method let me modify and improve the clairty of my explanation.
    To define being hit on. I honestly don’t know because it would automatically eliminate shy guys. However shy guys themeselves by virtue of being shy have a low SMV so if we disclude them the ladies SMV will become inflated but I see no way to realistically include them.

    Now for my last scenario. A very good looking woman. She is going to get hit on by 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 9 9 9 9 9 9 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 7 7 7 7 7 etc. It would be illogical to eliminate the top and bottom numbers if a very obvious skew occured because there is no one better/wose that can hit on her. So her SMV would need to be calculated in a different way. However since this only applies to the 1’s and 10’s its practically a nonissue.

    So lastly, the women is required to rate the men that approach her. But again we run into the problem of being subjective, some would say 6 others 8. This has already been argued for previously.

  • Sassy6519

    @ LokLand

    Your equation is useful, but it doesn’t account for everything. The reason I suggested a woman judging her SMV based on the men who have committed to her is that it ultimately negates the effects of hypergamy. High SMV males will most likely only commit to women who also have high SMV. They typically won’t bother dealing with women who are 5s, 6s, and 7s because they can date women who are 8s, 9s, or 10s. If high SMV males aren’t committing to a particular woman, it’s safe to say that her SMV is not very high. It’s irrelevant if they hit on her for sex. Most men will have sex with any woman if she isn’t hideous and she has a pulse. There is no discrimination. High SMV males become discriminating when they want to settle down, so they typically pick women who are equal to them in SMV.

    If the only men willing to commit to a woman are 5s, 6s, and 7s, it’s safe to say that her SMV is around there as well.

    My equation accounts for the fact that extroverted men typically do most of the approaching. It evens the slate for the shy guys because it includes them in the equation, not just the confident men.

    I know my equation has a few flaws as well, but that’s to be expected. As I said earlier, no equation or study can accurately assess human behavior 100% of the time.

  • LokLand

    @ Sassy

    I understand how it negates the upperward reach of hypergamy.
    That still leaves out the lower portion, men of equal/lower SMV whom a female will not allow to commit to her.
    Female hypergamy makes it so that only men of a higher SMV than a womans own SMV are able to commit to her meaning that using commitment would probably increase the SMV score.
    Mine seems to do the opposite.

    I disagree, there is some kind of equation that could explain every aspect of human behaviour it is an extrmely complex set of biochemical reactions that no one can fully grasp.

  • Marc

    Beauty is not different for most people. Even babies as young as 2 can choose attractive people over unattractive. There are some things that are universally beautiful.
    .
    Women: Radiant skin, high brows, wide eyes, white eyeballs, small turned up noses, pouty upper lip, high cheekbones, long legs, flaty bellies, deep belly buttons, large breasts.
    .
    And round, “fat” faces! (not fat bodies). Fat looks youthful in the face. Look at babies, they are a ball of fat! Look how horribly Demi Moore and Teri Hatcher look in the face. Too much exercise made them look gaunt.

  • tmunson

    @LokLand’
    You could have ended, and began, with “have money”. As in all matters, including affairs d’ amour, money creates option.

  • tmunson

    Shall we all grow up? Attraction: It’s sort of what Gen. Wm. Tecumseh Sherman said about war-
    it’s all hell, no use in trying to refine it. Physical sexual attraction is brutish, animal like. We want what we want (ref Woody Allen-who wanted his daughter). If you are man who wants a woman who is a #10, and you are not at least a 7, preferably higher, recognize it and prepare to receive it in return. Back to Sun Valley, Idaho. Every year Herb Allen has a conference attended by the richest (almost all men) in the world. What do you see? Aged men, some with surgery to deflect the effects of decades, with jaw-droppingly beautiful young women(lemon tarts to use Tom Wolfe’s expression). Many of the residents there fit the same bill. I guarantee Mick Jagger would not have seen 1/100000000000000 of the pussy he has if he had been a London cab driver. Looks matter and count. For men, it’s sort of like the old joke a about life as a shit sandwich, only it’s the better looking you are the less bread ($) you need to attract pretty women. Women are a little more forgiving in the looks dept., not quite as stereotypical or dogmatic about symmetry of features. If you ugly dudes think you can “game” them have at it.
    But the universe has this rule:you get what you give. And as for the idiot who hit me with the trite “true beauty lies within”-where, the pancreas? That is a crock of not particularly interesting shit.

    When you see a attractiveness mismatch there is a reason. Jackie Onassis would’nt have taken a pee on Aristotle if he didn’t own the whole world.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    [ I definitely have on very, very late on this discussion. ☺ ]

    Do beautiful women have a harder time finding real love? I bet Jennifer Aniston thinks so.

    And I have read from woman (to accuse), that man accepts only most beautiful woman.

    As far as looks go, “cute” is accessible, “pretty” is inaccessible, and “beautiful”, unattainable.

    This tells totally different story.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    5 susanawalsh wrote:

    On the other hand, those women are also saying their not getting any quality attention.

    @ 332 Kari Hurtta; This looks like other way to say that claim that man accepts only most beautiful woman.

    5 susanawalsh wrote:

    Someone’s gotta get into relationships if we’re going to propagate the species…

    Well, someones claim that man is needed only for insemination (or sperm of man and a syringe is required). If this is listened, then relationship is not required to propagate thepropagate the species.

  • Kurt

    Do beautiful women have a harder time finding real love? I bet Jennifer Aniston thinks so.

    Jennifer Aniston is one woman for whom I don’t feel much pity. She was very beautiful throughout her 20s and 30s and still looks good into her 40s. She could have had just about any man, yet she only went for the top man, Brad Pitt, who can certainly do better than her. A lot of pretty women claim that men simply don’t ask them out, but I doubt that Aniston is one of them – I am certain that men probably ask her out all of the time, and many of those men are probably good and attractive men, yet she rejects most of them for whatever reason.

    Aniston could have settled down and started a family if she had realistic expectations. I think it is a shame when a women with such superior genetics ends up childless, but she primarily has herself to blame in that regard.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kurt

    One of the things I heard was that Jennifer Aniston was and still is infertile. She couldn’t have kids with Brad Pitt even though they tried several times. Brad Pitt was also quoted to have said that he wanted kids badly. This is cited as one of the major reasons, if not the biggest reason, why Brad left Jennifer Aniston for Jolie. He wanted children and Jennifer couldn’t give him children.

    It’s not like she could have settled down and started a family with anyone.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    PREACH IT KURT!

    @ SASSY6519

    Can NO ONE present a reasonable and valid argument to you? It is now evident you have a superiority complex… I’ve a feeling deep down inside you loath those ‘lower’ on the sex appeal rating scale then you… you’re clearly educated (good for you) and unfortunately many attractive educated women (as well as educated attractive men) have said complex.

    C’est la vie.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    How is pointing out the fact that Jennifer Aniston can’t have kids a sign of a superiority complex? Kurt stated something that isn’t true. He said that Jennifer Aniston could settle down and have kids with anyone and she can’t. She’s barren.

    You seriously need to relax man and stop jumping the gun with me. The discourse you and I have had on this particular blog post shows pretty clearly that you have a particular interest in bothering me. Unless you have something relevant to add besides inaccurate snide comments, I suggest you give it a rest.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ SASSY6519

    You truly need to post what outlet of media and what sources (i.e. speculation or from Brad and Jennifer themselves) you heard such information from. I was always a big FRIENDs fan and moderately followed the Aniston/Pitt breakup in the day… NEVER do I remember such a claim from Brad or Jennifer and Brad cited falling for Jolie (sans the speculated adultery) on the set of Mr. & Mrs. Smith.

    So either your information is correct, or (as I assumed and as with most people with a superiority complex) you are concocting stories to serve your agenda and banking on the notion that most people won’t check your facts or are intimidated by your pissy demeanor to stand up to you.

    I also JUST made a quick search on the subject and not a page could be found citing the reasons you gave.
    Should you show evidence I’d have no recourse but to apologize. I somehow find that unlikely to happen.

    And KURT was very astute… I butted in because he deserved to be defended. It had nothing to do with you personally… but then again, you’re probably only thinking about your self a majority of the time.

  • Sassy6519
  • Lance

    Quoting Sassy replynig to GudEnof:
    “Your answer is pretty simple. In order for a man to boost his overall attractiveness to women if his physical attractiveness isn’t very high, he could increase his chances of landing a hot girl by;
    1. Increasing how much money he makes
    2. Being in a position of perceived power
    3. Improving his physical appearance”

    All true, but I can state from personal experience, that #3 is twice as important as #2, and #2 is twice as important as #1. I am not Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerburg, but I fall into the top 1% of incomes. Even in the unlikely event a woman knows how much money I make, it usually is not her major criteria, but more importantly, how would she know? Sure I drive a nice car and live in a nice house, but unless she lives near me, she can not know those things. If I make too much of it I come off as an egomaniac. Any Player can present as having money by dressing nice and spending a few bucks. The only benefit (relative to attracting women) I have obtained from having money is that I can in part buy #3.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lance

    I agree with you that #3 is more important than #2 and that #2 is more important than #1, but don’t underestimate the perceptiveness of women when it comes to determining how much money men have. Think of it this way. Our evolutionary drive to make sure that our children are able to survive manifests itself in women being attracted to men with money. More money means better resources to raise a child.

    All a woman would have to do would be to go on one date with you, and I guarantee that they would be able to pick up on the fact that you are wealthy. You don’t even have to tell us outright. Lots of things give women clues into a man’s financial status including:

    1. The place we go on the date (Ex: fancy restaurants, boats, expensive activities)
    2. The types of clothing the man wears.
    3. What type of car you drive .(We figure this out if you pick us up for the date in your car or if we see you get into a car once the date is over)
    4. The title of the job you tell us you have.
    5. The type of credit card you use to pay for things. (One guy I knew paid for dinner with a Black Amex Centurion card. It’s made out of titanium. He was no more than 30 years old and it made a huge impression on me)
    6. What neighborhood/part of town you mention you are from
    7. Your hobbies (Ex: boating, golfing, etc)
    8. The type of accessories you wear (Ex: expensive watch, pricey cufflinks, designer sunglasses, etc)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This may be a question of regional difference (I’m in New England), but I hate conspicuous markers of affluence. I have written people off as friends because they drive a Range Rover. My idea of a dream date would be a picnic in the park followed by kite flying. Preferably with a dog in attendance. The guy should be wearing old faded jeans and an old t-shirt from a band he liked in the 80s. Scruffy face. We would have walked there, or possibly come in his serviceable but modest car. The preferable neighborhood is urban, diverse, a bit funky. Hobbies like sailing are highly suspect, and polo is a dealbreaker. His watch should be a Timex or, if it is expensive, unrecognizable to the average person. RayBans are great, but wear Tom Ford sunglasses and you’re toast.

      I find overt displays of wealth obnoxious and insecure. Again, I’ve lived in Boston for 25 years, so this may have something to do with it.

  • LokLand

    @ Sassy

    Just so you know, I read over the first 3 articles non of them mention Anniston being infertile.
    Mentioned she didn’t want kids but that is not the definition of infertile.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    The last 3 articles I posted were about Jennifer Aniston’s multiple miscarriages. Apparently, she miscarried twice with Brad Pitt.

  • Lance

    @Sassy
    I agree that a woman can think that she learns most of those things from a date with a man (though I think many of your makers of finanical success are in error, e.g. I pay for most all meals in cash, only posers wear accessories and take women on expensive firs dates, if one has a job title, one probably does not make much money), but the average guy isn’t gong to get a date unless she is already attracted to him. Reminds me of the tiger woods commercial where he explains how to hit a 300 yard shot from a sand bunker… step one: hit the ball three hundred yards. I am curious, how did you know it was an amex centurion card?, I am only vaguely aware of the existance of such things, both the fact that they exist and the fact that you recognized it seem odd to me.

    @Susan
    I have a Range Rover, but I only drive it if I need to haul something large. I hope we can still be friends :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lance
      Haha, I was afraid of that. Rest assured, I was speaking in hyperbole. No offense meant.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lance

    I work for a large 4 star hotel in downtown Cincinnati. I’d say 90% of our clientele are wealthy business travelers. I’ve handled so many credit cards in my life that it’s not even funny. I was able to recognize his card because I’m familiar with the entire Amex line. The black centurion card is the cream of the crop of Amex cards. When the guy I spoke of paid for dinner with one, I recognized it immediately and was kind of in shock. The credit limit on those things is ridiculous, not to mention the joining fee of $5,000 and annual fee of $2,500. I was shocked because he was mid-twenties in age. To have one of those cards at that age is an achievement, to say the least.

  • LokLand

    @ Susan, Lance, Sassy

    Isn’t the limit on one of those $250k ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LokLand
      I wouldn’t know. I stick with the green Amex that gives 2% cash back.

  • Escoffier

    “I hate conspicuous markers of affluence”

    Not a question of region but of class. As David Brooks put it, for Bobos, lavish spending on necessities is acceptable. Lavish spending on luxuries is vulgar. I was raised with this ethos in my ancestral homeland and now that I am on another coast, lo and behold, I find myself in a culturally identical place. I wonder how that happened?

  • Escoffier

    Sassy, there actually is no credit limit on an AmEx card, not even the green card. However, you have to pay it off every month. It’s technically not a credit card but a charge card.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    The limit is based on a track record of average spending habits per year. What they do is they keep records of purchases made by the cardholder. The more the person is able to spend and pay back on time, the more their limit is.

    The highest recorded transaction on one of those cards is $52,000,000. Crazy indeed.

    @ Escoffer

    Exactly my point. The fact that the sky is the limit on those things is ridiculous.

  • Sassy6519

    Here’s a link that explains things more. There are limits, but they are determined by your potential instead of preset markers by the company.

    http://www.myoffshoreaccounts.com/vip-services/american-express-centurion-card/

    Check out the section titled “Spending limits”

  • Sassy6519

    My last comment is in moderation, so I figured I’d elaborate a little bit. All amex cards have limits, but not in the sense that we are used to with other credit cards. Other credit cards have a pre-set limit determined by the card company. A cardholder is allowed to spend that much and that much only, lest they be slapped with overdraft fees.

    Amex cards don’t have a limit in the sense that a cardholder can make charges without having a set limit in place, as long as they pay the balance in full each month. The limit comes into play when a transaction doesn’t fit with the trend predicted from previous spending habits.

    For example, if a business man spends roughly $250,000 a month on his centurion card, that trend is documented and kept as a reference point for future transactions. Now let’s say this business man tries to charge $750,000 in one transaction. The transaction most likely won’t go through or will be contested because it deviates dramatically from his previous trend. This is the company’s way of protecting itself from the potential of fraudulent charges or runaway spending that can’t be easily paid back.

  • WarmWoman

    Lokland and Sassy,

    Speaking of variables that skew the results, what if you’re in an area where you don’t see that many people that you would rate high on the SMV? For instance, a woman who works in a female-dominated field or lives in a neighborhood where there are mostly families. A woman that little interest in the bar and club scene given it’s reputation. A single woman that likes to spend time with her girlfriends on the weekends. These situations are less likely to expose you to men of high SMV.

    I say the best way to know how attractive you are is just to rely on feedback from others. If both men and women have said that you are very attractive more often than not, it’s safe to assume so.

  • Sassy6519

    @ WarmWoman

    Good question. If the circumstances surrounding a woman don’t allow for high SMV men to even be in the equation, that also skews the results.

    Also, I agree with your last two statements, but to a certain extent. The problem with relying on feedback from other men and women is the fact that most people will not be truly honest about someone’s SMV to their face. It would be considered somewhat rude to be brutally honest about someone else’s attractiveness upfront. There are some people who I honestly think are 5s or 6s, but I would never tell them that to their face. I know it would hurt their feelings, even though the information may be true in my eyes. It would be hard for me to look someone in the face and tell them that they are unattractive.

  • Marc

    To the poster that said he’s in the top 1% of earners. If you have $10 in your pocket, you are easily in the top 5% as over 50% of the working world earns less than $2 a day, and more than 47% of U.S. households now have a negative net worth. You are probably in the top .25%
    Also, net worth is much more important than income. I know many poseurs that earn 100k a year and spend 110k.
    The poseur is a common creature in U.S. When you see a Moe with bottle service, Range Rover (RR is the bare minimum to pose these days. Remember when BMW’s were enough to pose?), Tag Hauer watch etc, you never know if he’s the Real Deal Holyfield or not. As an American living in Colombia, when I see someone with these things, I know he’s not posing as credit is nearly non-existent here.
    How many girls have fallen for the poseur over the years only to find out later he has credit card debt! Sigh. ….and by “sigh”, I mean LOL!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marc
      Good point about poseurs.

      I know many poseurs that earn 100k a year and spend 110k.

      My other piece of advice, Copperfield, said Mr. Micawber, you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery. The blossom is blighted, the leaf is withered, the god of day goes down upon the dreary scene, andand, in short, you are for ever floored. As I am!

  • RVK

    Hi I know this is an old post but it actually made me tear up and I wanted to add my comments to it: I grew up a very chubby girl, and I was relentlessly teased and bullied, or ignored, throughout junior high. I was put on a diet plan by a doctor – it worked and I lost all the weight. What emerged was a “beautiful girl” I was constantly commented on, I heard comments that I was one of the prettiest girls in high school, I was constantly stopped on the streets by strangers and told I was beautiful and of course I had horrible cat calls and vulgar comments. But inside I was still the bullied fat girl. My inside never matched my outside, and I had very low self esteem. People thought I was a snob, and no one wanted to talk to me. Girls never wanted to be friends with me, and I always thought it was because I was ugly and fat because in my head I always was. The beautiful girl was like wearing a piece of clothing that I knew was nice but it wasn’t me. this article had me me think, maybe the reason that girls didn’t want to be friends with me because I was too pretty. The guys were worse. The nice nerdy shy guys that I liked were not interested in me. I thought it was because they assumed I was dumb. Starving for affection, I accepted the guys who did approach me – and they were the aggressive players who just wanted to brag they dated me. But I didn’t get it then. Now I do and it makes me so sad that, I dated these guys thinking they were the only ones who liked me, and when they inevitably treated me badly and dumped me, I blamed myself. I married one of those guys, a guy who was only interested because of my looks, and after almost 20 years of being thin, I put on a huge amount of weight, I think it was to get away from what got me into the situation to begin with – my looks. I’ve also found that people are less willing to be nice and helpful to “pretty girls” because they feel the girls don’t need help from them. I am in my 30s and I am alone. I needed help and I feel like no one wanted to help me because they figured I didn’t really need it. I’ve thought many times over the past few years the biggest reason for the problems in my life was being born pretty. Also, I think this kind of thing only happens to pretty girls who don’t have the confidence to match it. There are pretty girls who have a strong family background and are confident and I don’t think they have these same problems. I know I rambled a bit, sorry for that but I really wanted to add my thoughts on this. Thanks for reading.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @RVK
      Thank you for sharing your story, I was very moved by it. I do think that women who are late bloomers for whatever reason have an especially hard time with adjusting to becoming highly desired, stared at, etc. You’re singled out, which is nothing new, but for completely different reasons! I hope that you are getting support if you need it and getting back out there to meet someone who will see more in you than a pretty face.

  • WarmWoman

    @Sassy-I’m talking about people that randomly comment and compliment you on your looks,. I’m not talking about people who you ask “Hey, what’s my rating?” As another post said, strangers stopping you and saying that you’re pretty could very well mean that you are. If you weren’t, strangers wouldn’t be stopping you to tell you. There’s no hidden motive behind that.

  • Roy

    re: Smiths… Pretty girls make graves..

    :) Smiths fan here too.

  • http://kmariemclaughlin@gmail.com kt

    hahaha… this is 2 much!!

    @ Kenny & Sassy.. this seems like a case of fatal attraction! Why don’t the 2 of you give it a shot? LOL.. just sayin’

  • Sassy6519

    @ kt

    Haha! That seems like a surefire recipe for disaster. I have a feeling that if I met Kenny in real life, he’d probably throw battery acid on me. I’d rather keep my face intact and unharmed, so I’ll pass on that.

  • Doesn’t Matter

    I don’t think people understand that it is hard for everyone and the worst part is trying to talk to someone who understands without sounding conceited. It seriously destroys you to be told you’re beautiful and have nothing to show for it. You will never find a good friend. The girls that want to be your friend just want you to make them look good, and have nothing but themselves on their minds. Everyone in your classes judge you. Immediately. No one wants to take their time to get to know you. The guys that want you are arrogant and full of themselves. The guys you try to be friends with take every chance to get in your pants. When you get jobs you know you deserve you know people think otherwise. People hate you for no reason whatsoever. People don’t respect you and people assume the worst. I’m an avid sports fan. I will walk to hell and back before I let you tell me Mark Messier is not the greatest man alive. But it’s disgusting how every time I open my mouth every thing with a penis in the room has to jump down my throat in hopes of proving his manhood and maybe actually get in my throat. It’s sickening. So for all of you shaking your head reading this, walk a day in my shoes and tell me it’s not that bad. It’s like living in a fucking fish tank. I’m sorry if this is such a long rant but the worst part of it all is when you’re at the end of the rope and you just need to talk to someone, you have no one. I’m tired of hearing “oh wow, you’re life must really suck,” because the truth is it really does. Some of us are just not meant to be happy, even the beautiful ones.

  • adiyan

    This really disappointed me. Basically you’re saying if I just screw some guy he will want to be my boyfriend. I don’t hook up. And I always get asked what is a pretty girl like you doing without a man. And men I meet swear I have a guy already. I think its why I like cocky men cause insecure men break your heart. I was with this guy for five years and at the end he was like I don’t know what u saw in me. I no brad pitt. I don’t even think pitt is attractive. The men I have met always go for the gilr with all the kids no education and seem to need some sort of rehab. Its ffrustrating to hear your beautiful smart, then pick the dumb girl. Give me a break. What happen to being yourself.mim

  • tvmunson

    @ Doesn’t Matter
    I was desultorily reading your post, starting to actually buy in, not quite there, until your last sentence-an ass kicker. Sister, you not only said a mouthful in that one, it was like lighting the fuse that made you’re whole paragraph explode back in my face, knocking me ass over teacup (Tom Robbins). I don’t know what you look like (I’ll take your word for it that you’re pretty) but you can write like the Devil (said about Tom Berger).

    To your point: I have this conceit about innate gifts. The gift- beauty (yours), creativity, unusual talent (music, other arts), remarkable athletic prowess, whatever-is like a “wind” pressing against the wings of our essence psychology if you’re secular, soul if you’re religious). The “wind/gift” is only a pressure; where it takes us depends on the orientation of our “wing”. Adjusted “up”, we go “up”. But the opposite is true. Yours is a feisty and creative soul, and sort of like the tomboy that wants to mix it up with the guys, it rebels at the simple script written for it.
    Thus the “wind” of your beauty hits that wing, and even ever so slightly “down” you go with it.

    I cannot relate. I’m a guy; that disqualifies me right there. Average looking, and with a personality that is not exactly offputting but not constructed to make social discourse easy or pleasant. Overattraction has never been an issue.

    So I cannot end as I’d like with some pithy advice (guys always want to “solve” stuff-it generally pisses women in our lives off, unless it’s a leaky toilet where talking about). I don’t know if you’ll take heart in this, but I learned something from you, and learned it in a well written paragraph. It was more than something I did not know; it was the opposite of what I had heretofore believed.

    That beauty can be an island as isolating in its own way as ugliness.

  • Doesn’t Matter

    @tvmunson Thank you, haha. But I didn’t mean to write that for prose points. But yea, I’m a writer–for now.

    You, on the other hand, are eerily intuitive. I don’t know if this was the intention of your post because I don’t know you, and I most likely never will but your post made me smile. I don’t know if you’re just blowing smoke up my ass but you should know that I’ve never actually said any of that to anyone. I came on here to try to delete what I wrote because I was so embarrassed that this is what I was doing 1 a.m. on a Saturday night (or Sunday morning, depending how you look at it, haha) I just wanted someone, somewhere to get what I’m saying, so I’m glad I got to you, I guess.

    But let me just say: buddy you sure know how to sweet talk in a cute “i know you’re screwed up but i’m going to use big words that are unnecessary because the core meaning of them would’ve been just as powerful otherwise but only to prove that i’m not a dipshit like everyone else” kind of way. But sometimes good things come in simple packages :)
    Also, I don’t know why you used the term “off-putting” personality because I would rather spend my night talking to you about life than spending my night avoiding horny frat guys so props to you–you made my day. Apparently I have “off-putting” looks but people find that attractive. People are off-put by beauty a lot of the time so yea I would say your personality is very “off-putting” but also very attractive. (This is not me hitting on you, just saying haha)

    And yes I am a tomboy and the script that was written for me casted me wrong. I know this is weird [I said I’m good looking–not that I’m not weird because I am the biggest freak you’ll ever talk to if you talk to me long enough or anonymous enough, in this case] but it’s funny you phrased it like that because I do view life like a giant novel. There’s a clear beginning, and a clear end. And if it’s you’re first time reading it, you know how it starts but you don’t know how it’ll end. You don’t know what’s going to come next but you know something’s coming. It could be good or bad, dull or scary–but whatever it is, it’s just a precursor to whatever comes after that. So although I don’t believe in the ‘whatever happens, happens for a reason, because god’s got his hands wrapped around fate’s throat’ bullshit, I believe everything that happens has a consequence, and not knowing what that is keeps me going forward. That’s why I like to read and that’s why I live my life. Anyway, it gives me a ‘judge my cover all you fucking want; I’m just going to keep reading because I don’t have a Sparknotes on hand’ kind of outlook on life.

    And as for your winged theory, you hit it out of the fucking ballpark because the thing is I know some peacocks fly as high as they fucking want but some are stuck living here in the hell of an island people made for them because of one of two reasons: they just haven’t tried, or people have stripped them down for their feathers on one too many occasions.

    By the way, I’ve never read Tom Robbins but I’m curious as to which book that’s from– Google doesn’t seem to know.

  • Marc

    @Adiyan I found it ironic that people call you smart. Your post is full of grammatical errors. I know it’s a post, and we all get lazy, but yours doesn’t come across as such. Also, please don’t think that intelligence and confidence are attractive traits to all men. Myself, and friends included, prefer women of average intelligence. Also, confidence is NOT sexy in a woman. Most men prefer shy, unsure women. That girlish insecurity is boner fuel. That’s a trait we find attractive in hot chicks. Typically the more beautiful, the more insecure. This is attractive to us. I’ve explained this in an earlier post how hot chicks nit-pick their flaws and compare themselves to even hotter chicks, leading to insecurities. Average girls accept their social status, and have learned to embrace it.

    @Doesn’t Matter I would never hang out with a group of guys who are much better looking than me in order to “look better”. I would be the ugly one of the group. How would that help me?? Hanging with a group of guys who are also attractive, but slightly beneath me in looks would be the ultimate. Did you ever consider that maybe you are one of the girls who is slightly beneath the rest? Or do you think the other girls want to hang with you because you’re hot, and they want to be the ugly ones in the group??

    Men and women, especially women, no matter how hot you are, you know how to dress down to the ‘zone’ that would make you unnoticeable in public. The only reason you doll up, and dress up is to get attention, then complain about it?? Check out all the pics of famous beauties without makeup. Even the most stunning of all would become invisible walking through the mall without makeup in a sweat suit.

    Another thought just popped into my head. Some people have personalities that easily “click” with many people. Other people struggle in the social environment. When the struggler is of average looks, he/she realizes that he/she is socially challenged. If this person is really attractive, they may blame this inability to make and maintain friends on their looks.

  • Marc

    @Adiyan I find your grammitical errors sexy, so you know!

  • tvmunson

    @ Doesn’t Matter
    My name is Tom Munson and I am on facebook as Thomas V. Munson. I started using my initials tvmunson, but if you go to Urban Dictionary and look under “munson’d” you’ll see the reference to me from the OBNUG site (tmunson) where they coined the phrase “munson’d” for spelling and grammatical screwups. I am an excellent speller, but I terrible typist.

    So that’s me. The ref to “ass over teacup” comes from “Still Life with Woodpecker” by Tom Robbins. His most famous novel is “Even Cowgirls Get the Blues”, which intrigued me ‘cuz it had a goat eating a pair of panties (I have a weakness for them). My friend is Seattle knows Tom; Tom signed a copy of his last novel , “Terra Incognito” (?) to me as “To Tom in Boise (me)from Tom In Seattle”. Wish I could recommend it, but frankly I didn’t get it.

    But Tom’s other, earlier novels were killers. Women were amazed at the insights he has into them; Tom digs chicks, and although altogether straight the dude can get into the feminine psyche. D.H. Lawrence can do the same; don’t want to be lewd, but in “Lady Chatterly’s Lover” his description of a woman’s response to lovemaking is considered the best by anyone, male of female. Back to Robbins; the reviews of his “Even Cowgirls” talk about is near feminine (these were women saying this-sexist!) intuition; I was reminded of that in your comment that I’m “eerily intuitive”.
    Tom Berger wrote “Little Big Man”. When it came out, everyone was blown away. The movie is excellent, as faithful an adaptation as could be made, but the book is amazing. Simply amazing.

    I know good writing. BTW the people at OBNUG used to blast me about my “big” words. I reread what I wrote to you-I don’t see very many.And as for my “blowing smoke up your ass” (the image is not altogether unpleasant)-girl, I can back it up;damn it I’ll do it.

    Your paragraph is not very long, but in it you establish a “voice”. By that I mean a distinct style. something that someone reading knows it’s you. Mick Jagger sounds like no one else; listen to the background in “You’re So Vain”-you know it’s him. Cal thomas, David Brooks-all the columnists have it. Robbins, Berger-read 15 words, and you know who it is, but you can tell one Tom from another. Most people think to write well you need to be “wordy”, say abstract shit in flowery ways. Abraham Lincoln summed up our entire 87 year history , our purpose and goals as a nation, and inspired its reunification after the war in under 200 words.

    You used the word “Immediately”. It summed up all of those experiences you had-one word, and the attentive reader gets it. Only good writers can do that; it’s no accident. I know.

    You wanted someone to get it. I did. That means you are a writer. I don’t know if you write for money, nor do I care whatever motivations you have in other forums. I used to read that Jim Morrison was angry that he wasn’t recognized as a serious poet. I think if he really was a serious poet, he would not care. In there somewhere is what I am getting at, I’m afraid imperfectly.

    I told you I cannot relate. An attractive guy (I’m not) would still have nothing much in common with an attractive girl in the dilemma you describe. Women do not impose themselves on men the way men do on women. Women do impose themselves on women-I know exactly what you’re describing although as a guy I’m on the outside of it, but women are tough, tough on women. As intuitive as I am, I can only get a glimpse of the head games you play on each other, and it’s mindboggling.

    I’m not offputting; I said “not exactly offputting”. I was referring to what I imagined happened to you, that before you even encountered a guy (or gal) they had already formed a pre-set way that you were to respond to them, already typed in your script. No one is going to that with me; I am a natural raconteur, so no one (guy or gal) is going to project anything on to me. I am already in their face, down their throat and out their ass.
    As a guy, you can to that.

    I agree with you on the life script. Mark Twain said “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.” I think something like that is afoot in our realm. “Synchronicity” was a phrase coined to describe the odd coincidences, parrellels, and just plain weird things that go on. Sting was taken with it; wrote a song about it.

    Read my last sentence about what you wrote; I don’t believe that YOU think I was blowing smoke up anything with that.

    My conceit about the wind still applies Doesn’t (can I call you Doesn’t?; Miss Matter sounds so formal). Maybe I’ve helped turn up your wings a little, to catch some updraft. I know I tried: THAT was my intent.

    Get some Robbins (early) and read him. He writes about pretty, plucky girls like you (and likes them, and loves and gets them). I can recommend, in no particular order, “Cowgirls”, “Still Life with Woodpecker”, “Jitterbug Perfume”, “Another Roadside Attraction”. I’m hazy on the rest, and the last 2 or 3 haven’t been so hot.

    One last point: I never, never felt that I needed to prove I’m not a dipshit to you.

    fondly
    Tom (in Boise)

  • tvmunson

    @Doesnt’
    The ref to “ass over teacup” (odd phrase when you think of it, but it works” is used to describe an explosion in “Still Life with Woodpecker”. That novel contains the only time I’m aware that Robbins incorporates an actual, historical personage into the narrative. In the late 60s in the turbulent atmosphere a bomb was set off at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. The bombsetter probably thought the building would be vacant (it went off around 3:00 a m as I recall) but a grad research assistant was in there, and killed. The person who did it was never caught (Leo Burt was id’d as the perp bt the FBI as I recall). In “Still Life”, the bomber is a character who has self-imposed a punishment of having to wander the globe. He likes explosions; the cover of “Still Life” is a copied after a Camel cigarette pack, with a woodpecker holding a firecracker and a match.

  • Doesn’t Matter

    @Marc Thanks bud, but the fact is I go to college. No one dresses up here. We all look like shit and embrace it. haha I’d argue with you but then I’d have to argue with you. And I’d try to make you look bad but the fact that you took the time to try to insult me on a comment thing did the trick I think.

    @tvmunson That’s awesome! Thanks! I haven’t read in a really long while, but I will definitely check that out. :) And I happen to be a great fan of Sam Clemens (not Mark Twain) so nice little plug there.

  • tvmunson

    @Doesn’t
    Read “Cyrano d’Bergerac” too. If you saw the movies “Roxanne” or “The Truth About Cats and Dogs”, they are based on it. You may relate to the character Roxane. The most beautiful woman in France, Cyrano loves her, but he is ugly. Christian, a handsome stud, loves her too. She is beautiful, but has a restless soul, a questing heart. Cyrano writes the words that win it, and Christian delivers them, thus winning her. You don’t need to read the play (it’s good) to get my point; a plot summary will suffice. I see in her dilemma yours. BTW the ending is asskicker. I know it’s hard to find “free time” in college.

  • Phil

    “Most men are intimidated by good looks. They think that because she looks good, she must be high maintenance, hard to get, already dating, and snobby. ”

    99.99% of the time a beautiful girl fits one (usually more) of these categories. And rarely are pretty young women *not* dating – I can count the number of times I have met a beautiful girl who does not have a boyfriend for any longer than about three weeks on one hand over my entire life. They are *always* attached and it’s rarely to an average or ugly looking man, it’s always some jock or other locally high status guy (cool or rich etc).

    Most average looking guys with the balls to approach beautiful (or just pretty) women/girls have been rejected so hard and so often (particularly as teenagers) that they develop an embittered disdain for pretty girls while still lusting after you. Hence the ugly drunken remarks. They know they will be rejected anyway, so they might as well try to pull you down off your high horse into the gutter first with a disgusting comment that reduces you to a whore. Yes it’s immature and awful.

    But don’t give us that “oh it’s hard being pretty” crap. If it’s so bad why don’t you wear ugly makeup and bad threads, though even that will not cover up real prettiness. You’ll still be hot wearing a green garbage bag, a fact that fashion designers exploit on the walkway.

    The only real justice in the beauty gap wars is that looks generally fade with age. One day, you haughty bitches will end up like the rest of us mortals. As an old proverb says: “age is the revenge of the ugly on the beautiful”.

  • Lance

    Some hyperbole but many well articulated points Phil. But I don’t agree with your last point (and there is no need for name calling). It has been my observation that, for the most part, women who are highly attractive in their 20s remain highly attractive in their 40s. It only evens out in the sense that they are less attractive than beautiful younger women. They are still more attractive than their peers and often more attractive than average women 20 years their junior.

    On a related note… I spent the better part of the last week preparing a match.com profile. It involved reading a lot of profiles and blogs. Thought#1… any young woman that thinks that she can’t find a relationship because her beauty is indimidating to men , or that she only attracts the wrong kind of men, merely needs to go on match.com. She will get hundreds of emails from all kinds of men, if she can’t find suitable dates from hundreds of emails, there is something wrong with her. If she doesn’t get hundreds of emails, the thing that is wrong with her is that she isn’t that attractive. (oh the burden of reading all those emails, boo hoo).

    Thought#2… There is one thing that so many women could do to make themselves so much more marketable… loose some weight! By far the biggest factor in determining whether a guy is going to respond to your profile is your weight. (and really, no one is fooled by that head shot or that fuzzy pic of you sitting down in a sweater). Stop rationalizing your size 16 via ‘some men prefer heavy women’ or ‘your a victim of a body dysmorphic society’, just loose some weight!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lance

      Good point about online dating, I agree.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Lance
    “Loose (sic) some weight”-you’ve reduced all the knowledege of the dating world to 3 words. And there is a very very basic reason. Facially, most of us fall somewhere between Brad Pitt and Quasimodo-Jennifer Gardner and Blair Witch for you gals. But if you are in good shape, physically fit, hey you don’t need to be a runway model or Mr. Atlas but if you are pretty much squared away in the body Dept. SOMEONE will like your mug. You’ll be someone’s type. Glamour mag might not have in their contacts list, but you’ll be in the game. This goes for guys too, although I think women are a little more forgiving here-I said little, not 2 6-packs per day protuberant gut melon.

    Having said that, it’s a bitch. I have personally known no one who has lost significant weight and kept it off-none. Seen pics of them, in ads. A doc confronted Oz on this, said in effect you can make people healthy (er) but you can’t make them thin. True in my experience. I’m a 59 year old man who lost 25-30+ lbs. over the past year. I’m 5’10”, and I was around 230 when I started to try to lose it. I had a 36″ waist, 44 chest (expanded) so was not grotesquely out of shape (been a daily jogger with a mix of wiehgt training for 30+ years). Dropped to 200 lbs., 34″ waist (maybe 33, maybe), hit a wall. It’s a mother fucker-hey, I’m not going to do the “metabolism” deal on you, but goddamnit for every 5 years you live past 40, it becomes harder to keep the weight off. But I’m past dating and all that.

    But if you’re fat in your 20s, man you are basically screwed. Wish it weren’t so, but let’s be honest people-how many fat 20 somethings have you know who’ve lost and kept it off; you young folks haven’t lived long enough to know? ok, I’ll tell you-if you know one person who does this by the time you are 50 you will have beaten the odds.

    Susan, care to “weigh in” (pun) on that?

    “Sad old truth/dirty low down.” B. Scaggs

  • Phil

    “It has been my observation that, for the most part, women who are highly attractive in their 20s remain highly attractive in their 40s.”

    Highly? While 40+yo MILFs can look really nice and have the advantage of life experience, wits and maturity, it’s rare they can outright beat a smoking hot 19yo for just pure physical sex appeal and beauty alone. That flawless skin, those glowing eyes. All women know this as fact in the pit of their stomachs and they fear age. There are exceptions of course – but the Michelle Pfeiffers of the world are rare.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Phil

      All women know this as fact in the pit of their stomachs and they fear age.

      I have never feared age. I have enjoyed every birthday. I am secure in my sexual appeal. I will admit that I’m not sorry I’m married, rather than looking for men to date at my age.

      Smart women will select a man early on who they can grow old with. I still flip my husband’s switch, that’s all I care about.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ LANCE

    “Thought#2… There is one thing that so many women could do to make themselves so much more marketable… loose some weight! By far the biggest factor in determining whether a guy is going to respond to your profile is your weight. (and really, no one is fooled by that head shot or that fuzzy pic of you sitting down in a sweater). Stop rationalizing your size 16 via ‘some men prefer heavy women’ or ‘your a victim of a body dysmorphic society’, just loose some weight!”

    Couldn’t agree more.

    This may be materializing in my mind due to the fact I’m 5’5″… but here it goes.

    Isn’t it funny that women rationalize it’s okay to be overweight (I’m not talking 10-15 lbs I mean 50-150lbs). They say it’s what’s inside that should matter. Yet the moment a man who is 3-7inches shorter than what society deems attractive they say: “I can’t help it I just need a taller (not taller than me, taller than Shaqeel O’neil) man”. And yet, if a man had ‘realistic’ option of improving his height, phallic size, body frame, etc. he would jump at the opportunity to do so in the hopes of improving himself and being seen as more attractive to women.

    It really boils down to two things.

    1) Women’s lib: Women are COMPLETELY ENTITLED to equal rights. However, the method and expedience in which the movement came about in the United States is akin to ‘CATHOLIC SCHOOL-GIRL SYNDROME’. Women are more suspicious of men in this day and age. They don’t see them as equals but remnants of an archaic oppression and thus try to have it over men (weather it be subconsciously or consciously). Or they are young women who grew up in a pampered (politically correct) society and thus have gotten everything they wanted due to the fact after women’s lib in the 70’s men started becoming more docile to women’s need – which bread a generation of wussy men that gave women everything they wanted in the 90s.
    Again, I’m not saying women don’t deserve equality, THEY DO, this is just a natural backlash and will dissipate in time. Still, it deserves some Creedence and analysis.

    2) Fat people are generally lazy: Again, a few extra pounds is nothing to discriminate against or feel bad about. But a person who is 50-150lbs overweight complaining that they should be seen as equal to someone who takes care of themselves is positively LUDICROUS! Again, American consumerism and society has born a culture of excess and instant gratification. These women who complain about being rejected when they are disgustingly overweight are simply lazy. Overweight men are lazy as well, but complain less… sorry ladies, it’s in your nature to wine, it’s in ours to brood and bottle it up, then explode now and then. DEAL WITH IT.
    This liberal mentality (AND I’M NO CONSERVATIVE – more centrist) of making everyone feel accepted and welcome is really BULLSHIT. Discrimination against race, sex, height, skin-color, etc. should be seen as realistic issues… weight, I have no sympathy for. Genetics are genetics yes… and like I said people shouldn’t have a problem with a woman or man harboring 10-15 lbs in excess, but even genetics CAN NOT account for people being grossly overweight (which tend to be the women who complain about the issue). If they have a disorder in which they eat out of depression SEEK HELP, don’t give up and give in. With ALL the knowledge and awareness in the media pertaining to eating disorders (all types) NO ONE has an excuse these days to say it’s too difficult to get help. Those people are simply lazy and I’ve no sympathy for them.

    Oh and to SASSY… I haven’t had a chance to read your evidence on the whole Jennifer Aniston debate, but I do recall another poster commenting that your assessments were inaccurate. I’ve been busy with work but will get around to reading them and certainly will concede your point should they prove valid… Somehow thought I think they won’t.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    spelt whine wrong….

    apologies… LOL!

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Oh and I apparently spelt SHAKEEL wrong… This is a BAD day for me… LOL!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    Oy vey dude. Reread what he said. He said he only read the first 3 of the 6 links I posted. I told him to read the last 3 and there was no further issue. The first three links deal with Brad Pitt’s desire to have children and it’s factor in his split with Jennifer Aniston. The last 3 articles deal with her infertility. She miscarried twice with Brad Pitt. You seriously only read what you want to read, don’t you?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    He never said my assessments were inaccurate. He simply failed to read the last 3 of the 6 links I posted. Once he did, there was no further issue. Get your facts straight please.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Apologies that I choose to live in the real world and not on this forum, have priorities and have not read every single post. Still I’ll be cordial should you be right (when I get a chance to read the articles). Though your jumping to conclusions just shows how shrill you truly are. And so vindictive.

    How you maintain that you yourself are a desirable and sought after woman is beyond me. But then again actions speak louder than words… and we can’t exactly see these men ‘clambering’ after you from our vantage points.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    I never jumped to conclusions. You did. You claimed my information was inaccurate without reading the information yourself first and misquoting what someone else said.

    The reason I come off so curt with you is because you argue with all the rationality of a 3 year old. I only have so much patience for stupidity. You are pushing me to the brink of that limit the more we interact with each other. You might be a nice person in real life, but your online persona is infuriatingly annoying.

  • Marc

    @Susan, you did the right thing by striking while the iron was hot! You found a man while you were in the “zone”. Now you can coast.
    ..
    Birthdays are kryptonite to women. @Lance. There are attractive women in their 40’s. I am going to let you all in on a secret. Men are NOT jerking off to the Jennifer Anistons, and Angelina Jolies of the world, even though they are some of the more attractive, aged women. They are more interested in the average looking 17 year old neighbor. There, I said it.
    ..
    If you’re a hot chick, be grateful, as many women have never had the opportunity to live as a hot chick. Grab a good guy when you’re young and move on. Don’t try to overstay the party, it’s creepy. Pass the torch to the younger generation of hotties, and be happy for them!
    ..

  • Marc

    Thought.
    High value for women=looks
    High value for men=looks, wealth, intelligence, wit, confidence
    .
    That being said, there are many more high value women than men, for it is much easier to be born hot than it is to be hot and also have all the other qualifying qualities I mentioned in high value men. (Let’s face it, women are not revered in society for the qualities I mentioned in men). This leaves the high value men in great demand. This can frustrate hot chicks who are constantly approached by 4-7’s and can’t seem to land the 10. Even for a hot chick, landing a 9-10 is a hat trick, as they are scarce. Also, women typically end up with men slightly older than them. Their highest value years are about 16 to 26, which means they date guys from 22 to 35ish. By the time they are looking for marriage, usually the high value guys are off the market, further frustrating the hot chick.
    EVEN LESS CHOICES! Remember, hot chicks have less choices than average chicks. They have more options….but less real choices, as she will only date a man of equal or higher value, which there are few.
    ..
    Tough to be a chick, hot or not. Much respect.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Marc

    Whilst your deduction is rather astute, it leaves the question:

    Why MUST a hot chick have a man of equal or greater sex-appeal? Aren’t women the sex that constantly bemoans superficiality in our society… hat that people (they in particular) are judged on their outward appearance. Yet the moment a suitor arrives possessing all the qualities said complaining woman stipulates (and only lacks the sex-appeal ranking of equal or greater value to her) she snubs him, then returns to her bitching.

    And we men are labeled as shallow? Laughable. I’ve seen many, many, MANY a man who pursues a woman obviously lower than him on the sex-appeal totem. Weather it be genuine interest, or a desire to stint competition from other males I cannot say. But the fact that those men are giving a woman a chance (at least seemingly) based more on her personal being than her external physicality shows there’s something to be said. I’ve rarely seen a woman pursue or as they put it “settle” for a man she or her peers see as lesser in sex-appeal. Not that it doesn’t happen but as I said rarely, and personal preference comes into play of course… still it seems men are generally more willing to forgive a prospective lover/wife for not possessing a number of his fantasy checklist attributes in regards to physicality. It seems as though the same certainly CANNOT be said of many women.

    Quite hypocritical. Particularly with all the complaining of not being able to find a suitable man. Poor, poor pretty girls.

    Oh there… I’m waiting for your retort Sassy.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Kenny Fabritius

    I actually have no issue with your last post. I agree with you, for the most part. I’ve dated a few men who were average looking, but who had amazing personalities. I’m, by far, not the pickiest girl when it comes to a man’s looks. Remember, this is the same woman who dated a guy who came up to her chin.

  • Dee

    It is so very sad to be young today. My sons are this age and handsome and have a terrible time finding girls. After reading this article and others like it only one thing stands out to me, SHOUTS out to me…women are treated like objects just as they were before the feminist movement only worse because now they feel they have no choice but to give up their bodies. Please listen to me. I have been there, I was a beautiful girl and am now nearly 58 years old…YOUR BODY IS YOUR TREASURE! If you had a precious diamond, would you just give to to anyone who asked? Don’t try and say that you are not an object, like a diamond, because we have already established that that is how you are treated anyway. Don’t give yourself away! Why haven’t your mothers taught you that? Why have the “adults” who run the universities thrown you togther in co-ed dorms so that your mystery and charm has become common and overexposed? They have betrayed you because they don’t want to appear “uncool”. Shame on them for not doing their jobs. I am telling you the truth. Treat yourself as though you were a precious diamond and you will find the right person and, more importantly, you will have integrity. Do you really enjoy “hook-up” sex? What’s in it for you? Many people want to steal a diamond…beware of them. That is what parents used to do for their daughters, protect them from those who would steal their integrity. Parents of girls today are worthless. You are free to quote me to your parents and show them this email. Maybe they will wake up and figure out what their job is. A diamond is not cheap, it is expensive. To be an expensive diamond, you must not only sparkle outwardly but be inwardly pure as well. Develop yourself inside as a good human being and then don’t sell yourself cheap. Make whoever wants you prove his good intentions before you entrust yourself to him. Remember…your heart alone is worth a fortune…your feelings are as precious as your mind and body and do not deserve to be played with and destroyed for someone else’s momentary pleasure and future bragging rights. YOU ARE SPECIAL!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thanks for that comment, Dee. I hope many people read it!

  • Alexandra M

    One thing that definitely demands some elaboration, here, is the fact that when men make revolting comments to beautiful women, these women are not just “frustrated” by the unwanted attention or sexual objectification; in fact, that’s only half the story. The other half of the story is the competing fear that other women (and some men, too) expect pretty girls to accept the attention, respond diplomatically, or risk being branded a conceited, uppity bitch.

    So yes, beautiful women get thrown into some difficult situations that generate a lot of anxiety (and obviously some tears, as well), but if university culture encouraged pretty girls to tell drunk assholes where to shove it, they could feel less conflicted and certainly more empowered when attempting to defend their dignity. In other words, the woman at 1:50 wouldn’t have to worry about being caught in a “mockumentary” if our culture stopped mocking women who assert their self-worth.

    In that respect, I would also suggest that reality television and popular media refrain from shitting all over women with “excessive confidence.” That confidence is only deemed “excessive” when the woman is purported to think that she is hotter or prettier than she actually is; and on the contrary, I think that EVERY woman (especially the recipient of the “cum on ur tits” text) should be allowed to think that she is beautiful and sexy if it helps her command respect (especially from the likes of Fratty McShakespeare on that drunk-texting binge).

  • http://xanga.com johnny doe

    Beautiful people have it tougher in life? Laughable.

    They complain about not being able to find quality dates/relationships.

    Try never having gone on a date, or dating with 2-3 year intervals because no one is interested.

    Try having been single for years at a time, and the stigmas that are cast on people who are inexperienced with the opposite sex. A guy past 25 who has not had multiple sexual partners will have a tough time attracting any woman, beautiful or even plain-looking, past 30, he’s screwed. The stigma of being single for years/lonely is 1000 times worse than any negative byproducts that are a result of being beautiful. Beautiful women never say this outloud nor do you hear about it in all women’s magazine that would have you believe all men are just after sex, which is such gross overgeneralization of guys.

    Experiencing trying to succeed in EVERY area of your life, profession, work , exercise, friends, hobbies, and it never fixes that one area of your life – dating – you are always alone, and always single at weddings. Guys can be awesome at everything, and still fail with women, and by fail, I don’t mean no sex, I mean not even dating, at all. Guys have it a million times tougher in dating than a beautiful woman. In today’s dating world, guys have to actually remain uncertain that they are going on a date until the girl physically shows up at the place. That’s how flaky and uncommitted women are today to dating, they can pull shit like that, and no one says anything about it, and guys get all shitted on the world for being pigs after sex.

    You think that ever happens to a beautiful woman? Not likely.

    Beautiful women complain that men are only vulgar and will objectify them and they wish guys would get to know them for them. This is the most common strawman thrown out in the media which is inaccurate, because for YEARS I have liked women for their personalities, and I have always gotten rejected, either because they did not care, or did not feel the same way. Believe me when I say it hurts 10 times more to get rejected when you like someone for who they are, and you never hear women acknowledge these types of men. Some men turn like that because they get burned so many times by liking a girl from the heart.

    For every beautiful woman who has one man all over them for their looks, I am willing to bet there at least 5-10 men in their life who would love to go out just to get to know you for you, and not anything else. I’d also bet you have talked yourself out of going on dates with guys that are great, because you can. Beautiful women are notorious for an inability to make plans to meet up, because they are never short of options. How come that something we never hear about in the news? Men are dogs, men have sex, men are pigs! Never do you hear, women cancel dates on the last minute for no apparent reason from a guy who was looking forward to getting to know her, and probably can’t now, and can’t say a word about it, because women are allowed to be as fickle as they please, and he has no idea when he’ll meet the next girl who wants to go out. Woman rejects man who genuinely liked her for her. I have seen it happen in real life too mnay times.

    I have heard so many women and read women saying they won’t go out on a date w/a guy or they won’t talk to a guy at a bar because he might be interested in only one thing, so better safe than sorry. It is such a ridiculous statement if you really think about it – if you talk to a guy, or go out w/a guy on a date, he’s gonna drill you on the table in front of everyone? Isn’t sex a woman’s choice, not a man, and its understood when you go out with a guy you are getting to know each other on a personality level before a physical level? I don’t know any date that starts in the reverse order. Beautiful people, women especially, can line up 10 dates in a week, no problem. None of them have to end in sex. And she may decide for herself if she likes the guy as a person. I can’t possibly see how getting vulgar remarks every now and then as a byproduct of being beautiful, possibly outweighs the sheer amount of options a beautiful woman has in the dating world. I have a hard time believing beautiful people can only find potential mates who are only interested in sex, and cannot find those who are interested in more than that. There are milllions of guys who would love to just go out on a date, and maybe get a kiss at the end, if the vibe is right. A beautiful woman is highly unlikely to ever go out w/a guy like that. She’ll probably cancel at the last minute for something else, and go on complaining that men just want her for sex. You think a beautiful woman ever needs to tell herself “It is okay to be alone, learn to enjoy it, get some hobbies” and know subconsciously that months, YEARS are going to go by before she meets that next special someone? Impossible, there’s always guys willing to go out with her, and I know that not all of them can be dogs. We are not a society where women are bankrupt on genuine men, its a society where women have so many options and guys have to constantly adapt, keep up to fit their standards, or they get left behind fast.

    As a single guy, I literally cannot comprehend having my phone so full with women who are interested in getting to know me, that is just outside my comprehension. More importantly, I cannot comprehend that as problem. Try going to date online, send out 500 messages to girls who say please comment on my profile, don’t just email me for sex, and getting zero replies. See how cool that is compared to your unfortunate life.

    If i go on more than one date w/a girl, no sex involved, I consider that an achievement. When I read stupid articles like this, about people who could never comprehend what its like to be unloved, completely unwanted by the opposite sex, it is very frustrating.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    I do not know why anyone says this bullshit that a 2nd grader can see through. Meeting the right person is a numbers game; attractive people have more numbers. Period. Ain’t fair; but fair is where you get cotton candy, popcorn, fun rides-this is real life, ain’t no fair.

    Sorry to hear of your despondency, and I will not condescend to pretend to know how to alleviate it.

  • Marc

    @Jonny Doe. I’ve said this before on this blog, and I’m sticking with it. The more beautiful a woman is, the less choices she has. She has many options, but not real choices.
    .
    A woman who is a 9-10 is probably just as frustrated as you, because she will only likely date/marry a 9-10, of which there are few. (and even fewer who are single).
    .
    Take comfort in this Jonny. (no hate mail please). I liken a woman’s desireability phase to a roman candle. EVERY breathing hetero man on the planet from 12 to 100 years old, desires a teenage/early twenties woman. There just aren’t enough to go around. So they are in super high demand at that age, especially the hot ones. Once she hits 30, the clamoring for her slows down significantly. Now the guys interested in her are the 40+ crowd. 20 year old men will only have a one niter with her., and us 30 somethings are taking up with the much younger ones who are interested in us. Once she hits 40, it’s now the 55+ who are interested. Following me? Her ‘zone’ is VERY short lived. That’s why I scream to every hot young girl who will listen…”grab a good guy while you’re in the zone”. Don’t think it lasts forever. Many try to ride to up to, or past the end of their zone. THEN, they look for a high value dude. Well that high value dude wanted you 8 years ago, not now!
    .
    Let’s talk about your zone. When you are in your teens/early twenties, it was probably the tweenies and some girls of your own age that were interested in you. When you hit 30, the world is yours! Every woman from teenagers to 40 year olds will be jocking you. The 40 yo’s will likely be GILFs who know they could never land you, but will ride you for self-validation reasons. You will be more handsome, wiser, richer, funnier, smarter, wittier, and more confident than at any other point in your life. Now, if you stay in shape physically, really in shape, you can carry this program into your 50’s. Your ‘zone’ can be 4 times longer than any beautiful woman you see.
    .
    In short Jonny, if you are not in the league of a 9-10, you most definitely have more choices than her. Averages put most people in the 4-6 range. So if you fall there, you have more choices for a potential mate than anyone. I can’t help you with specific problems you may have. I can only say to possibly lower your standards for a potential partner, and engage more of them. This will raise the liklihood of finding her. Good luck mate! (I’ve been watching that reality show Australian Customs lately. I think mate sounds cool, gonna start using it, although it may sound funny without the accent).

  • http://xanga.com johnny doe

    Marc,
    Thanks for the response, and no hate mail. I just don’t ascribe to these stereotypes that men have it easier than women in dating, because it is flat-out not true. I’m sick of women’s magazines and the media characterizing women like they have it so hard. It’s completely the other way around.

    Guys don’t get jocked. Walk into any bar with me and show me where guys who make good money, are decent looking, are nice and funny get ‘jocked’ by girls. That never happens. Guys have to do and initiate EVERYTHING. And believe me, guys who are past 30 who are not wildly successful in their job are not respected they way they are when they were 20.

    And unlike a beautiful women, a guy has to be good looking, make lots of $$, know how to keep a high-paying job, stay in shape, be funny, witty, respectful and understanding of women who make plans but back out on them at the last minute, and STILL will not get considered by many women as dateable material. Looks alone get a guy nowhere.

    Beautiful women get attention and have more options well into their 30s. Even you say, they get jocked, just not as much. The most outrageous thing is the lack of appreciation for what they do have. If I was ever as lauded after as a beautiful girl and I could always find a girl to get a date with, you can bet I would be very appreciative of it, and not going on some website posting bullshit like I got it harder than others. It’s like TVmunson said, attractive girls get more numbers, and numbers are what lead you to your potential mate. Guys, very, very quickly, can end up w/no numbers.

    Guys have to try and try and fail and fail w/girls, and if they don’t start getting some success with girls, other girls pick up on that right away and hold it against guys. Any woman here want to date a guy who hasn’t been on a date for years? Yeah I didn’t think so. Wow, you have it much harder than that guy.

    I challenge any woman on this site to read my posts and point out where I am wrong. Even if its true a woman loses her value as she gets older, that doesn’t change that she has a ton of dating options that may never be available to guys throughout their entire life, no matter their age. I know plenty of beautiful girls who were considered hot in high school, hot in college, and then considered housewife material in their late 20s. I also know guys who never got to date around that time period, and were just not considered dateable by any women by the time they hit 30. How does that show that men have it easier in dating than women?

    Women can complain about the downsides of being attractive, but they can really say, the downsides outweigh those that regular men face in the dating world every day? Not likely. Beautiful women can try and downplay their wealth of options all they want for sympathy, but believe me, if they didn’t have those wealth of options, they would see the world in a very different way. Like the rest of us.

  • DAWNINC

    MEN WANT MEAT,DOGS LIKE BONES. Most women in the world are below 5’7″! models arent known for beauty! they look like 7 foot tall teenage boys.Look up marilyn monroe,vida guerra,kim kardashain,shakira,jessica simpson,mulher melao,mayra veronica,coco austin,Sarah lime,Monica santiago,Arab,latina,italian,armen­ian,etc women! all these women are not tall I listed either!! actually, shorter women have more estrogen which explains curves! Doctors used to inject tall girls with estrogen because estrogen halts/stops bone growth. So thats a fact for all.
    There is also a misuse of the word “curvy” CURVY IS SPECIFIC! Small waist,big butt,wide hips,thighs,breasts is curvy! curvy is not fat and it is not thin either.
    Men have always preferred curvy women. Ask any man worldwide and throughout human history! go look at ancient paintings, none of the women depicted were thin!
    its just the current fashion industry that distorted the female form! they want to keep the attention on the clothing, not the woman’s body.
    I appplaud the author of this page to let everyone get their info across! thank you!

  • Marc

    @ #398 I know it can be frustrating dating in the U.S. The high standards, materialism, poseurism, toolism, etc. I chose many years ago to remove myself from that whirpool is sillyness. Don’t get me wrong, I love my American girls, and think they are some of the most beautiful on the planet. It’s just that I found a better program outside the U.S. I don’t know what you do for a living, but if you can, consider another country. Where I live in Colombia, the women are STUNNING (think Sophia Vegara, but younger, prettier, and with less kids!), no feminist attitudes, good food, low prices, great weather, great freedom with true democracy (not psuedo democracy like the u.s.), great coffee, real culture and history.
    Only things I miss about the U.S. is customer service, and clothes/shoes shopping. (Which I do when I visit my family ). Add me on Face, you can check out my lifestyle! MiamiWhiteMarc@gmail.com
    .
    @399 Good points, love it. The point about designers wanting to keep the focus on the clothing, and not the girl is something I never considered, and makes sense.
    .
    Social dynamics/mate selection study is a hobby of mine, and is what originally brought me here. (props to Susan). Your points about estrogen are well documented. There are legitimate reasons that attract the opposite sexes. Women with high pitched voices, more estrogen, more fertile. Big boobs? Appear to have more milk for our offspring. But, I always wondered why men liked round butts. They are more pleasing to look at, but why? Round shapes are no better than square or flat shapes. I don’t want a round TV, or roof, I like flat. New studies suggest that women with rounder butts have smarter offspring! They even go further to say that women with round butts that go flat after childbirth, have the most intelligent babies. It suggests that the butt of the mother plays a key development role in the brain of the fetus. And you guys always thought it was just more ‘cushin 4 da pushin’. (Insert your favorite ‘ass for brains’ or ‘butt-head’ jokes here).
    .
    Mother nature in her infinite wisdom gave us dudes keys to look for when choosing a mate, to give our offspring the best chance of survival. So next time you catch a dude staring at your ass, he’s not perving on you. He’s actually being astute in trying to determine if you’ll give him a smart kid.
    .
    Ever wonder why a womans body is worse after childbirth, instead of better? Mother nature could have made it better if she wanted to, but chose not too. Again, to ensure a greater chance of survival for the offspring. If a womans body looks worse, she is less desireable to other men. This gives her less opportunities to stray from her mate. This means the man will not catch her cheating and leave them both, taking his resources with him upon leaving the cave/house. These days, women have lipo, Dysport, implants, and all sorts of dermal fillers to stuff in their faces. This, combined with women who can provide for children with their own careers, has led to women cheating just as much as men. I think.
    .
    If I ever meet mother nature, I do have a beef with her. Why does she make our palms sweat at high altitudes? Seems to me she should have made them sticky. FAIL.

  • TheOtherGuy

    Pretty girls don’t have it harder. Pretty girls who are unfriendly, snobby, and only associate with men who are dirtbags do though.

  • TheOtherGuy

    Also everything Johnny Doe says is the truth. That is exactly how it is for me and every other guy I know.

    Anyone who thinks being pretty is keeping them from dating needs a reality check.

  • Eli

    heard a little bashing of the PUA’s. everyone has something bad to say about them because they “use” the ladies. but let me enlighten you a little. nobody starts out as a PUA. you have to want it. but you can’t just want it because doing it is unnatural and uncomfortable and comes from a whole backlog of failures, and more failures, and learning from your mistakes. eventually you get good at it. but why did you initially learn it, what motivated you to learn that? the girls who you loved and who broke your heart. the great girls that friend zoned you one too many times. and eventually you snap, and you go do something about it. but in the process of learning the PUA technique you learn just how great those girls aren’t. and then you realize that they are all the same except with a few fine details here and their. and one day you realize that people aren’t even people, we’re all just fucking robots being spoonfed our thoughts by society. and its precisely at this time that you become magical. you can get damn near any girl. but why keep her around? you knew what she was like before you met her. she just bores you like everyone else.

    and those pretty girls. yeah they all have the same pretty girl problems. they don’t have real friends, the girls are angry at them, the guys are all trying to turn em into a trophy. they were all molested when they were young, and they all just want someone to understand them. and they all have at least 3 guys in their lives that they friend zoned a long time ago, who are still waiting for them. they are clones of each other. and how do you respect that?

    so hate on the PUA’s all you want pretty girls. you were what inspired us to learn what we learned. and even now, you have some orbiters hanging around that are real good guys. if you keep em hanging for long enough you will destroy them for all women. learn to let them go or give them a real chance. but if you keep doing what you always do, some of those guys will be motivated to do something about it. and you will be the one who gets hurt in the long run for it.

    but i’m not a real PUA. i am no AFC either. just a guy who knows how to entertain, and a guy who realizes that the good women are very hard to come by.

  • Sarah

    I’m still not sympathetic at all. Boo hoo.

  • http://xanga.com johnny doe

    Sarah, who are you not sympathetic toward? I hope its pretty women who complain out it. They get zero of my sympathy.

  • Vicky

    You know for every advantage a beautiful person (note person not merely woman) appears to have there is a disadvantage. If you were beautiful you would know this. There are no free rides for anyone in life. How would you like to be alone all your life because other people were put off by your looks. Oh thats right it only happens to ugly people. Hardly.

  • http://xanga.com Johnny doe

    Vicky,
    Oh yeah there are tons of disadvantages to being a beautiful woman.
    Walking into a bar, getting a drink, and getting approached by guys and getting free drinks all night.

    Getting a million texts from a bunch of guys who text you to go out, but really are just annoying because you gave out your number not to be rude. But now you can just laugh and giggle about those text messages to your friends. Guys who will call or contact you after giving you their number are a dime-a-dozen unfortunately.

    Posting a dating profile online, getting hundreds of emails. Rejecting so many guys who do not fit the bill you don’t even THINK about it.

    Going into a job interview, and everyone is nicer to you right away.

    Walking straight to the front of a line at a club on a Saturday night, getting in right way. Having guys left and right hit on you.

    Holy shit I’m soo glad I’m alone and for years no woman has ever approached me. I’m definitely more advantaged than beautiful women, they have it so tough!

  • Miss Summer

    Do pretty girls really have it harder?? Sure, sometimes. But the benefits of being pretty FAR outweigh the disadvantages. I am smoking hot, I know it, and I LOVE IT. To all you self-proclaimed pretty women, I know a secret that is so profound it will change your life. And since I am selfless in addition to being gorgeous, I will share it with you. The secret is this – LOWER YOUR STANDARDS!! There are PLENTY of good men out there and plenty of them have probably tried to approach you and you probably weren’t interested. These men, most likely, didn’t have the sexy looks and the level of alpha male that you feel you deserve. Well guess what my pretty darlins – that gorgeous, intelligent, wealthy, super-alpha doesn’t want you. He wants a woman better than you – and there is ALWAYS a woman better than you. So next time you get asked out by that smart, kind, down-to-earth guy who isn’t classically sexy and that you are not instantly interested in, give him a chance!! He will probably treat you better and be more loyal to you than the kind of man Your Royal Hotness believes you deserve. You can’t have it all in one man, so pick your priorities. Personally, I would pick kindness and loyalty and humility over looks and intoxicating lust any day. Give that “beta” the best of yourself while you are still young and hot and fertile. If getting married and having children is something you want, either now or in the future, get your priorities in line now. The alphas won’t want you when your youth and beauty has faded and the good non-alphas will be taken by women wiser than yourselves. Your great beauty offers you advantages in life. Acknowledge you beauty, use it to your benefit, but don’t let it bite you in the ass. Good luck, pretty ones.

  • Kelly

    Wow, just reading this article now and it’s mind-blowing. I grew up the only girl with 2 brothers and was never treated like a “princess” and have parents that never felt they needed to buy us the newest, coolest things that would gain us status at school… that coupled with a very awkward and ugly stage during junior high left me the target of a lot of jokes and no party invites:( No one (even myself!) knew that a few years down the road I would grow into that big nose and come out the other side actually, well, beautiful. It’s hard for me to say this about myself, still. It took me a while to go from ugly duckling to what our society deems “pretty”. I remember walking past boys when I was younger and remember looking down and being frightened because I knew they were about to make fun of me. Then, it started turning into guys wanting to talk to me? Guys telling me i was “gorgeous”. Seriously?! me?? Not to this day (and I’m 27) have I ever dated the “popular guy”…the good looking, smart, sexy guy. Deep inside I still feel that rejection and that torment. And you know what the most ironic thing is…these guys now think I’M the bitch because I’m blowing THEM off!!!!!!! I’m still the same girl..I care about people, I have goals and dreams and they have never gone by the wayside just for some guy. I appreciate all types of people. People who are “good looking” or not…people from different cultures and countries…people with different political views…artists and free thinkers like me…and you know what..I’m still single. I’ve been single most of my life. First it was because I wasn’t what people wanted. Now it’s because people don’t understand me or even want to get to know me. That guy that’s sitting in the corner of the room..he doesn’t have rock hard abs, he doesn’t make a ton of money, but I think he’s cute and I want to get to know him more because I think we would have a lot in common…well, he won’t give me the time of day. So tell me now, who has it easier?? I would rather be that “ugly” girl now than be alone.

  • INTJ

    @Kelly

    Now it’s because people don’t understand me or even want to get to know me. That guy that’s sitting in the corner of the room..he doesn’t have rock hard abs, he doesn’t make a ton of money, but I think he’s cute and I want to get to know him more because I think we would have a lot in common…well, he won’t give me the time of day. So tell me now, who has it easier?? I would rather be that “ugly” girl now than be alone.

    Really? I’m usually the guy sitting in the corner of the room and I’d give anyone the time of day, as long as he/she asked nicely (which you probably do). Now I’d be reluctant to approach a “pretty” girl since she’s a lot more likely to reject me because she’s got too many options. But if a pretty girl showed interest in me, I’d give her the benefit of the doubt and reciprocate.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Missy Summer

    EVERYTHING you said is true. EVERYTHING!

    It’s so unfortunate that you’re REALLY a scorned Beta-Male who’s posing as a “HOT GIRL” to give sound advice… and IT IS VERY SOUND.

    Valiant effort my friend… but it’s just a fact of life, if you’re told TIM & TIME AGAIN you’re a precious commodity, you begin to believe it. Why are so many celebrities stuck up? Granted, some are natural narcissists, but I’d wager a MAJORITY begin as genuine people, until years of their ass being kissed and being handed EVERYTHING they want turns them into needy sycophants.

    The same goes for pretty people… and I would be very hard pressed to believe there are ANY “HOT” women who know they are hot and still treat others with respect as you seem to be. So I reiterate… valiant effort sir… and it’s so sad this society needs trickery such as yours to spread a GOOD message… but in the REAL world pretty women justify, even delight in their ridicule and mistreatment of lesser men and women… that’s why I feel your facade is “TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE”…

    But again, valiant effort sir…

  • http://www.ghostgossip.com Troyster

    I really liked the comments on here. It’s really refreshing to see so many women expressing things so openly and honest. I am going to give you ONE male perspective. What I’ve found is that most women even remotely good looking had a pretty easy pick. They could choose the guy they wanted. One time I took my very obese female friend to a club that was FILLED with women. She had a guy approach her and I left without even a conversation. In my early 20’s I noticed that nice guys who wanted a relationship were often over looked. Sure, women claimed they wanted guys like that, but in practice they didn’t for some reason. I’m not saying this was always the case but it often was. As soon as guys start acting more like, well dogs, they seemed to get more reward. Another thing that honestly confuses me is how much importance women take in outward appearance and image and yet they don’t wish to be objectified. I don’t get that. I try to give every woman a chance, yes even the pretty ones. I just can’t get passed a pretty girl’s prissy gaze (or bored international model look). I like human qualities that are somewhat down to earth. So, when I was in my early 20’s I didn’t have much in the way of luck. One 5 year relationship with someone that had major bipolar issues, destroyed the relationship and left her dirty sandbox for another man. I then met some women who REALLY likes me for maybe a month or as long as 3 months and then lost interest. I met many extremes, either super prudish or too nasty. It seemed like all of the ones I met didn’t connect well with having a “normal life”. I was looking for a REAL relationship and I just wasn’t getting it. Trust me, men looking for real relationships aren’t liked as much as women claim. Women say a lot of stuff, but I don’t see it in reality as much as a hear it. When I got in my 30’s, I would get women who would walk up to me and before she even asked me what my favorite color was, she was asking me what I did for a living. Honestly I would rather by objectified than all out used. I would tell them what I did, and they would walk on. I felt like they were trying to cherry pick or something. No such thing as finding someone they LIKE and building something together. They were looking for a ready package. I would also meet women on blind dates. Usually from meeting her on the phone or some other way. When she saw me and she wasn’t attracted to me, she would ask me questions to give her reasons to shoot me down. I know this was the case because often the same gal when end up with a guy that’s a total loser. Who do they come crying to when all the males of the world are such jerks?… ME. It got to the point where I was getting sick of being a shoulder for them. While they were out enjoying themselves, I was home alone. It wasn’t until their shallow lifestyle fell apart, that I became important. In my late 30’s and early 40’s I started to have used to be pretty girls and 2 widows come after me. In my experience, widows are VERY aggressive. They want to marry a guy quickly and they don’t seem to be nearly as fussy. I also noticed that even the unattractive MARRIED women (who I knew from back when they were very pretty) were starting to show interest. Again, I’m seeing destructive behavior that I don’t fully understand. I don’t find it very flattering to be rejected for years and then suddenly become interesting as soon as a woman’s looks falls apart. It’s not that I’m shallow, but I don’t want to be somebody’s left over either. So I got stuck in the middle. The young women had too much to learn and acted impossible and the older women seemed to be looking for someone out of desperation. Both situations were rather annoying. I started looking back at all the pretty girls who rejected me or who stayed with me for a short time and then dumped me. What I found is that even to this day, they don’t have a “normal” life. No kids, no family, no husband. I find that so confusing because they seemed to have it so easy. Why is their life such a disaster? Some of them want me now, but I avoid them. Not always because of their looks. I just see where their life is, and I don’t want to be drug down. I am a guy that has NO debt. I’m buying my own home. I have held a job since high school. I am fairly fit. Have well most of my hair. In college learning. I don’t drink, smoke, cuss or do drugs. I’ve never cheated on anyone. I have always want a REAL relationship and have always been picked over for scumbags. Guys who might have been maybe a little more attractive or had a better social position (more money) and that’s it. I definitely don’t pick women the way some of the women I’ve seen pick men. I don’t always pick the prettiest women. If they’re trouble or a scumbag, I pass them right up. Being pretty only gets their foot in the door. Of course, on the flip side, being ugly won’t do them much good no matter how sweet they are. In fact, a guy sometimes expects unattractive women to be nice. Some even joke that women are never nice unless they have to be. I don’t believe that, but I think it’s funny because I’ve seen at least partial truth to is. Now I’m 44 years old. My aging mom is asking me why I haven’t gotten married yet. It makes me sad because I really wanted a “normal” life. I wanted her to have a grandchild but I could never find anyone. At least not anyone who wasn’t damaged and/or useless. At this age I will sometimes have women walk up to me and tell me why I’m not dating. Sometimes even 40 year old women who don’t seem to be dating anyone themselves and they’re telling me what I’m doing wrong. This makes me take several steps back because fist of all, how do they know I’m not dating? Is it that obvious? Even if it IS that obvious, isn’t it rude to walk up to someone and basically say, “I can obviously tell you’re not dating”? I still get the women asking me what I do for a living. At this age, I’m starting to get a type of woman I didn’t get before. 20 something gals are acting interested and VERY sweet but it doesn’t go anywhere. It’s almost like they’re acting nice because they believe I’m not in their radar anymore. Anyway, I have a feeling most people reading this is probably thinking I’m unattractive or something. Well, I’m not the best but I’m definitely not the worst. The honest truth, I haven’t met a woman yet who couldn’t get someone out of her league (so to speak) and some of them probably don’t even realize this because many will down play their guy. I look at the guy their with and listen to them say that they really weren’t that attracted to him but liked him after they go to know him. I look at him with a six pack and her with a big flowery blouse and somewhat of a couch potato look and I’m thinking it but I’m not saying anything.. I think find out that he’s even making a fair amount of money.. So then I start to think to myself, my gosh, if women who are not even up the the point of average looking can get guys LIKE THAT, I might as well hang it up. Not that I’m shallow, but I do like something a little nice to look at. I don’t blame those couch potatoes for getting the best that they can get either. Even if I wanted someone REALLY unattractive there would be the problem of only being wanted because they’re desperate. I know I’m sounding mean, but I’m not trying to. I’m just calling it as I see it. I am nice to women I’m not attracted to and I befriend them. Something pretty women don’t always do with me (well sometimes they do). Anyway, these are my thoughts.

  • Laural

    Just finally ended a 6 month relationship with a guy who would always tell how “freaken gorgeous” I was, but was on every dating website looking for something better. Sunday we had amazing sex in the morning, he went on a date that evening with a woman from a dating site “told me that they had instant fireworks…then tried to tongue kiss me goodnight. (He denied the tongue kiss said it was just a kiss good night the next day and that I must have been drunk, or imagined it.) Point is that even though I was kind, sweet, great lover, one of the most beautiful women he’s ever known…he was ALWAYS looking around the corner.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    I find that EXTRAORDINARILY hard to believe LAURAL.

    This forum is just becoming one big: “EVERYTHING IS MEN’s FAULT” bash…

    BORING…

  • Laural

    You don’t understand it because you aren’t a narcissist, and that is a good thing :) http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/07/07/hookinguprealities/are-you-dating-a-narcissist/ I don’t want it come across as a bash, sorry if it did. It’s more about how absolutely confusing it is have someone hold you in “high esteem”, but not want to keep you. Everyone tells me I am one of the most beautiful women they have met…but it really doesn’t matter. It’s what’s inside that matters. I am figuring out that men who talk about my looks a lot just want arm candy.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @pretty lonely, I feel your pain. I too am working to make the most of being single by appreciating the richness of life, exploring new things, etc. Working on the mating game feels increasingly overwhelming, hopeless, and silly. I think I have a little but of motivation left, but I’m tip-toing the edge.

  • Luna

    …is this about the “preety” girl who waits for her prince charming. People should make a advance, take initiative, make a move, speak up!!– specially if they like some one. Looks only get people so far …what happens when they are alone? All the good looks are for nothing. So use them. I do lol Confidence>Good looks

  • mplo

    No matter how pretty a woman is (and I consider myself to be an attractive woman), having a history of innate communication and developmental disabilities that were more than likely set in stone either before or during the time I was born, can make it virtually, if not downright impossible, to attract men. So, as a woman in her early 60’s who gave up on even having an inkling of an interesting in having a boyfriend a long tine ago, it’s occurred to me that, as a woman with an innate history of communication and developmental problems, that, in order to have dates, I’d have to enter into the kind of setting(s) that I don’t particularly wish to enter into, which would suck…..big time for me. So, I’ve remained single by choice and prefer it.

    Although I’m attractive, I don’t exactly look like a queen or princess out of a storybook, or the typical wholesome, all-American girl who lives next door, or at least close by. So, that’s how I am, and that’s how I’ll stay. But, at least I have interests, and stick with them, even though some of them are quirky.

  • Marinos N

    There is lots of good information here but one thing that drew my attention is the complaint that beautiful women now in their 30s+ cannot get the attention of men in their 30s-40s who are now going after the young 20s. Has it ever occurred to you that you enjoyed the same kind of attention when you were in your 20s and probably ignored all the guys in your age group who have no other choice than to become the very men you now condemn as they grow older and more mature. Is it fair to me that I have to compete with guys that are 10+years older than me (I am 26) for women my age? I have never judged a woman by her looks alone and I have always pursued women that I got to know first, I would be their friend and enjoy intelligent conversations and flirting with them. Not all of us guys are shallow but being a decent person who treats women with kindness and respect and actually tries to get to know them before pursuing them has yielded no results for me whatsoever. Some women have unrealistic expectations, others feel entitled to guys that are way above their league because they can offer sex, other women just like being treated like garbage. Some very average women who have nothing going on for them in terms of personality and achievements will often expect to be courted by the most amazing guys, which is something that society has instilled in their minds through all these retarded romantic comedies. Many beautiful women expect to be carried by their good looks through life and in many ways this is a fact of life. Even if she settles for an average looking guy who has an amazing personality what’s stopping her from cheating on him with the next player that can provide a short lived thrill, seeing that women mostly rely on emotions than reason in their choice making. In addition, I believe it is very easy to see whether someone is genuinely interested in you or just for your looks. But be real, the first thing that captures anyone’s attention is how you look and women do the same thing. There are just as many women sluts as man whores in this world, so to find a mate you have to search really hard, experience rejection and disappointment but keep going on and keep an open mind. Another thing, although you say that when guys make inappropriate comments in your face you feel disgusted, I would argue that at least it reinforces your perception of self as a desirable woman. Being totally ignored would be even worse.

    Everything I have said comes from personal experience and research online, yes I am biased :D

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Marinos N

    If there was a god and I believed in it I would say “amen”… but since I don’t I’ll just give you a slight nod as a gentleman and a scholar…

    ;-)

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Laural

    “I am figuring out that men who talk about my looks a lot just want arm candy.”

    Well then frankly that is your fault, not the fault of GOOD men. Historically, even in most patriarchal societies women had/have the choosing power. If you keep being duped by men who just see you as a trophy, you are either a hypocrite who claims to want a genuine man but falls for the “snaky charmers” or a moron. Since you don’t seem to be a moron then I must assume you want your cake and to eat it too.

    You can’t have both.

    The law of averages (particularly in this situation) says that most men who are good looking aren’t genuine – they get whatever they want from their looks and/or have the confidence to sweet-talk their way to what they want. The average Joe is more likely to appreciate you, but you never give him a chance so how can he?

    If it’s what is inside that matters then why are you going for ONLY the men “In your league”… and I can tell you are because most average to ugly men don’t have the confidence to be manipulative.

    Reality isn’t liberal… things are ONE WAY or the OTHER… unless you’re talking quantum theory they are NEVER and can NEVER be both.

    Pick what is more important to you or stop complaining.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Johnny Doe

    It is the way it is my friend. And don’t think there is a light at the end of the tunnel… there is no purpose, no god, no mercy.

    The only thing men like us can look forward to is: as the world becomes more secular and accepts science and evolution, these fickle HYPOCRITICAL women will use the argument of natural selection to justify their discrimination and eventually turn all women to this think. This will result in ONLY alpha males breeding females. And men like us will never be born to exist and suffer.

    Not much of a silver lining, but it’s better than nothing.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Thinking* – not think

  • Mary t

    A little comment on all this ‘ attractive men are douchebags! give ‘nice’ dorky guys a chance..they will treat you right and want a relationship.’

    What a bunch of lies that is. First of, I have never met more superficial entitled misogynists than the so called ‘nice’ guys. The men who never got the pretty girls tend to become resentful of women and think the world owes them a girlfriend that’s exactly like the one in their head! thats just been my experience though..obviously doesn’t apply to every beta male..in case I’ve offended anyone. Just wanted to say that the formula doesn’t always work out so simply. Ugly- beta= nice.. Hot-alpha=jerk.

    In fact, the better looking guys treated me a lot kinder and were generally less obsessed with appearance than their less comely fellow buddies. They’ve gotten all the hot women they wanted..some them just want a girl they like.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In fact, the better looking guys treated me a lot kinder and were generally less obsessed with appearance than their less comely fellow buddies. They’ve gotten all the hot women they wanted..some them just want a girl they like.

      Those were good looking betas. Alphas don’t want girlfriends, and when they get them they tend to cheat. They have a low marriage rate and a high divorce rate.

      Looks are not necessarily correlated to dominance, nice vs. jerky, etc.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Susan Walsh

    Your response to Mary t is VERY TRUE.

    I’ve always liked you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kenny, I deleted your comment. You can disagree with Mary without calling her names.

  • INTJ

    What the heck? Does Kenny like reside solely in this thread?

  • Marc

    Now that this thread is heated up again, I had a thought that maybe some women can clarify.
    .
    We all know that very pretty women have this unspoken competition thing amongst themselves. If you are a pretty woman, within 3 minutes of entering a venue, you know where the other pretty women are located (the competition).
    .
    Does this also apply to opposite sexes? I consider myself handsome, and often get looks of disdain from attractive women, but not from average looking women. I also feel a sense of competition with attractive women, even though we are theoretically not in competition with one another.
    .
    I have gotten dirty, angry looks from hot women. I have paid more attn to this as of late. I watch groups of hot women at lounges ignoring, or giving dirty looks to hot guys that walk by. When an average guy walks by, no bad looks, and the women will even watch him walk by, rather than ignoring him.
    .
    Anyone care to enlighten? Especially women.

  • peter

    all i can say is, im glad im not a girl! ive been told all my life im attractive (you can judge for yourself on FB – petesmithy37@yahoo.com), but i am a Christian. i do play the “hook up” scene, at all. i am looking for a fellow christian girl who doesnt have to look perfect but at least be attractive TO ME since im not out to impress anyone. how immature our culture is, and has always been. men trying to desperatly to prove themselves to other men. pathetic. i try to impress God, who is above all things and all people. if i can find a girl that is both my type AND is a firm Believer, ill consider myself blessed and very fortunate. im so glad im not part of this sick culture. i feel bad for those who are. they will never know real love. sex is so simple to do. being in love and loving someone else is much harder, but its well worth the hard work.

  • peter
  • peter

    damn, i meant to say i do NOT play the hook up scene lol. so many typos today!

  • Laural

    @ Marc I would say you are speaking of beautiful women who define their self-worth by their looks. (They wouldn’t be caught dead on this thread, they wouldn’t understand the problem) Just like women who define their worth by their husband’s job, they are insecure and let’s face it lazy; or to be kinder have been raise to believe their looks are their fortune. As for them being friendly to a less handsome man, maybe it’s because they are not a potential mate so they don’t bother with artifice. For myself I know if I am attracted to someone I can get very nervous and avoid them completely, my friends have said that they do the same. It’s not that I don’t like them, it’s the opposite. I know Kenny(some dude on this thread) will tell me to grow a pair–no thanks Kenny–I am working on my bravery. Being considered beautiful probably has it’s advantages, but I recently got a complement from someone who told me I had one of the best personalities he’s ever come across. I nearly started crying because it was probably the first time that a man had said that to me, and it meant much more then telling me I’m pretty. Try saying that to a beautiful woman and see what happens…but mean it when you say it ok :)

  • http://www.aoit.com.au Musculoskeletal Therapy

    That’s probably because they always fall for douchebags. Sad part: being a beautiful girl, players will definitely go for you first while the good guy waits at the corner.

    If you’re a beautiful woman, try picking up the nice confident guy in the corner. He’ll love you for it.

  • mplo

    I’m an woman in her early 60’s, with extremely curly reddish hair that I’ve continued to wear long, because I like it long and it enables me to do many different things with my hair, depending on my mood and/or where I’m going or that I’m doing.

    Yet, I also have a history of developmental problems and difficulties in communication, socialization and overall interactions with people, generally. So, as much as I longed to be attractive to guys when I was a teenager, to attend school dances and co-ed parties and to go on dates (not to have a boyfriend, particularly), and to make friends with guys. Yet, since I had trouble relating to and making friends with girls for all kinds of reasons I won’t disclose.

    I have to admit that when I reached my mid to late thirties, I gave up on looking for a boyfriend, resigning myself to the fact that my lack of social skills is innate, and therefore much more set in stone. It occurred to me too, fairly recently, that, in order to have boyfriends, that would mean entering into a setting or settings that I really don’t wish to enter into, which would s**k for me…big time. So, I ‘ve accepted being single, and not hitched up to any body.

    I can identify having some fear of most men, lest I get hurt physically, but that’s beside the point.

  • everafter

    I am a 38 year old woman and have to say I can relate to this article. Most of my life a was average. I got married in my 20’s and divorced at the age of 33. I remember thinking I truly was invisible to the opposite sex for the first few years after my marriage ended. Then I lost weight, styled my hair different, dressed more stylish and basically changed my whole appearance. Now people tell me I look like I am in my 20’s all the time. Well, at first I was excited because I received a lot of attention. I was no longer invisible to men. It felt great! Well, three years later I still get looks from people. I get compliments often, people ask me why I’m single, etc. I have been so frustrated lately because it seems I only attract players and they are really good st pretending they are good men. Needless to say I am alone. I want men to be interested in getting to know who I am on the inside…smart, funny, caring, kind etc. It is insulting to me that men only want to get down my pants. So, I too have been on both ends of things and I guess women have their problems whether they are attractive or not. Before I read this article I was seriously beginning to think there is something wrong with me. Maybe there is but I’m betting it’s because the good men are too afraid to talk to me. I’ve been told I am intimidating by multiple people. It saddens me because I know I am a good person. I don’t want people to think I’m a batch. I’m beginning to think maybe I should give up…

  • everafter

    I typed bitch but my cell auto corrected it haha

  • Phil

    I find this topic of interest because I am an attractive guy (only because of p90x, used to be 250 lbs but slimmed down to 175 with muscle). I get rebuffed despite my personality, and yes, some innate part of me wants to sleep with these women, it’s inevitable. I had to get my ego in check, thanks to Buddhism and realizing I was sounding so full of myself. Anyways, I approach attractive women in groups now, first initiating conversation with the less attractive ones, not because of trying to get laid, but because they open up and are prone to have a great personality which inevitably leads to a great/fun conversation involving witticism and coyness. This inevitably makes the attractive girl a bit jealous, which tend to make her join in as well. It turns out they can play at my level half of the time, and when I say my level, I mean engage in intelligent conversation without the threat of promiscuity on the horizon. Essentially, if you are an attractive lady, keep your guard up against all men, but never automatically rebuff them if you don’t know them (unless you feel creeped out. And I ONLY look at their eyes and face when speaking to them, but from across the room, of course I notice the whole body, haha.

  • PrettyGirl1234

    Most girls and women throughout MY WHOLE LIFE have found ways to put me down and criticize me, including my own mother. For the longest time I thought I was superbly unattractive and overall undesirable by the whole of humanity.

    In high school I showed interest in a nice, studious, good guy with no success. He was pretty nerdy so I figured just up my alley but even he didn’t want anything with me. Well, I later heard that he had no idea someone as gorgeous as me would be interested in someone as nerdy him! This story would repeat itself several times over.

    I’m now in my 30’s and I’m working hard to finally have self-respect and enjoy being beautiful, something that only recently did I become OK with admitting. I’ve let all sorts of guys sleep with me because I’d no self-respect. I’ve had respectable and/or hot and/or eligible men approach me too but I never thought I was good enough for them.

    All my friends, even the ugliest ones with alcohol issues have found loving husbands. I’m the pretty one in my group of friends, the one who got to model etc., yet I’m the loneliest of all.

  • LB

    this site and particularly this article is very fascinating. i haven’t had time to go through and read all the comments yet but it seems like some of the things mentioned for the gorgeous gal can also apply to the gorgeous guy. “Pretty boys” are normally not my type but I find myself attracted to and pursuing one. we’ve worked together for a while and as i’ve gotten to know him, i’ve discovered that there’s a lot more to him than the surface hotness. it’s actually pretty interesting to see how much we have in common and how alike we are despite how opposite we look from one spectrum to another. i am usually categorized to the “cute” dept and am somewhat covered in tattoos while he is a bit more on the conservative, clean cut side. i’m learning to be more confident and bold around him while trying to figure out if the attraction is mutual. ironically, when i first met him, i was not attracted to him because i labeled him as “pretty”.

  • Smilemore

    Susan, Thank you so much for posting this article. I found myself in the dating scene after 20 years of marriage. It turns out I have a fantastic body for my age, people tell me I look like I’m in my 20’s even though I am in my 40’s, and I’m often mistaken for my 21 year old daughter at first glance. Being single, I have gotten a lot of attention from men, both young and older. But I started to realize they really didn’t care about who I was. Some were only interested in me because they had sexual fantasy going on in their heads about me (or my body, I should say). Others wanted to date me to show off their friends. About 1/2 of them didn’t want any commitment, the other half only wanted commitment for regular sex or to gain status and they were possessive of me. None of them wanted to get involved with my life or wanted to get to know who I was by sharing interests, my career or getting to know my family and friends etc. I was just their sex object and they treated me as such.

    But of course, being naive, I fell for them. I know it sounds stupid but who wouldn’t like attention from good looking men after a bad divorce? But it was so disappointing to find out they only wanted my body after I had invested my emotion and time in them. As a result, I started to believe 1. the only thing men want is sex and they say vulgar things to women and that’s the norm. 2. that I am not pretty enough, nice enough or sexy enough, because if I was, they would have been nicer to me and would have wanted a relationship with me. So I started to look at men with mistrusting eyes and proceeded to feel horrible about myself. But I finally began to learn my lesson and started to notice nice guys – real guys my age with common interests. But then I realized they often felt intimidated by my looks (especially compared to their body) and wouldn’t talk to me. The ones that approach me are cocky, aggressive and good looking players, or the ones who “thinks” I am interested in them just because I talk to them about weather or something for 2 minutes! And me being inexperienced in the dating scene, I don’t know how to approach the nice guys I am interested in, either!

    And I also hesitate talking to any guy because I am afraid I might “lead him on”. And when people do approach me I have to be “bitchy” to them but I am not bitchy by nature and hate being bitchy. I also worry that the nice guys might think I am bitchy, being bitchy to other guys.

    I don’t think of myself as pretty enough to cause any problems, but people tell me I am very attractive and I felt like everything you described in this article happened to me so I must be pretty enough to be causing this problem. But of course, I wouldn’t dare complaining I have this “pretty girl” problems to my girlfriends or anyone. I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging. So thank you for letting me write about it here.

    What you wrote makes sense to me and I now finally think me being single is not because I’m ugly like I thought I was but actually partly because my “attractiveness” tends to attract jerks and intimidate “real” men. I can finally stop thinking I am not “enough”.

    I will try 3 second eye contact and smile thing you suggest… But OMG, 3 seconds will seem like ETERNITY to me…. It’s funny, since I am a performer and have performed in front of thousands of people but cannot handle 3 seconds of personal eye contact with a guy I’m interested in…. Nice guys might be afraid of rejections, but we are, too, at least, I am, although I am perceived “attractive”.

  • Lanette Roberie

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  • Andrew

    “Focus on friendships first. A guy who cares for you as a friend is less likely to use you, and more likely to develop real feelings.”

    Sorry, but that’s girl ridiculousness. Most guys who have any experience in dating know the simple truth: Become a girl’s friend, and she won’t EVER go out with you. You have to be clear and hit on her from the word go, basically, because if you act like a friend to a girl, you’ll get friendzoned.

  • Ceer

    @ Andrew

    Keep in mind this post is from 2009. Susan’s thought has developed significantly since then. Also, this post describes optimal tactics for pretty girls, specifically mentioning high school.

    The advice to focus on building friendships with guys makes sense in the less mobile high school environment, particularly in rural areas or urban areas with a clear progression from one school to another. This creates an insular community more like a church or small college.

    Developing a “friends” relationship is a sexual rejection. In contemporary American culture, this is typically employed as a soft rejection tactic by women who desire men to give value without them having to reciprocate. It’s become so common, that game tacticians have rightly advised men to adopt a zero tolerance policy for this when meeting new women. However, there are circumstances where it is permissible to “be friends” with a woman in the traditional sense.

    1) The woman is beautiful and willing to become a pivot for her friend. This provides an indirect value for the man by appearing to give preselection.

    2) The woman is part of a larger preexisting social circle or organization (other than a place of employment) where she provides ongoing participation.

    Optimal very long game for girls (assuming they want successful marriage) includes relationships with a variety of men and women. With respect to men, those that she doesn’t want immediate relationships with should always be treated with respect and courtesy. Men react best in the long term when given a hard rejection, rather than a soft one. If you are unsure, say you’re unsure rather than saying no.

    A primary reason good men drop out of the dating scene is due to lack of dating experience. Go on dates with men you are unsure about as long as you trust them. Particularly when young, group dates are fine.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    You people are so juvenile.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    It’s really quite funny.

    “Beautiful people’s” problems (particularly beautiful women’s problems) aren’t even 1st world problems. They are imaginary problems.

    I’m really getting sick of hearing genetic lottery winners complaining. Try being an average looking, poor short guy in a sea of ADONOSs in New York City. Then you’ll see what REAL dating problems are like.

    Get over yourselves you self-entitled b*tches…

  • Laural

    Paul,
    Let me get this straight, you have given up on a whole continent of women?

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Such idiots on this forum…

  • angelguy

    As someone over 40, I think one of the main obstacles I see with pretty women is that they often get more of the wrong attention.
    For them, it is difficult to distinguish the regular guys from the players.
    So they have a tendency to have their guard up more.

    For those pretty women that want to find a good guy, they have to be aware that they have their guard up too. Unlike the Alphas(God, I really don’t like these terms.), Betas have often dealt with the larger brunt of rejections, both from attractive and non-attractive girls.
    Their guard is up more than the Alphas, at least, the ones that haven’t gotten over their issues.

    I think attractiveness is all about attitude and what you project to people.
    If one is projecting themselves as unapproachable, then, most will assume that they can’t be easily spoken to.

  • Priyanka

    I’m sorry, but this is all bs. I was especially offended at the idea that only beautiful women get sexually harassed in the workplace. But if you look like a supposedly fugly former Secretary of State, it won’t happen? WHAT? That is the most ignorant and offensive thing I’ve ever read, like the people who claim that only beautiful women get raped.

    Sexual harassment, like rape, is not only about lust or physical attraction. It’s about asserting power and control. I am speaking as an unattractive woman who HAS been harassed in the workplace. (Not at my current job, but the jobs I held before law school.) It is deeply ignorant and even sexist to suggest that only attractive women suffer this.

    Furthermore, attractive women have so many benefits in society that all their complaints make them resemble the proverbial Poor Little Rich Girl. I’m 25 years old and I have never been asked out (respectfully, I mean – being lewdly propositioned in the office does not count). I have never even been kissed. Does it upset pretty girls that they have too many male admirers? If I could only have such problems!

    They get ahead in the workplace too. I’m a corporate attorney at a major law firm in Manhattan, and I remember (male) partners of the firm comparing law students in the last round of interviews in 2012. One case came down to two female law students who had the same grades from comparably good schools, and both were on law review – the partners chose the girl who was hotter. This was strictly off the record, but it still happened. Do you know what that means for the ugly girl? Now she’s going to drown in law school debt because she didn’t get the one job that could make it worth it, and which she was qualified for – all because it came down to her looks. Sick, but true. I can’t wait until I’m more senior in the firm, so that I’ll have a say in these hiring decisions.

    Bottom line: pretty girls’ problems are overrated. Try living like the rest of us before you complain about your privilege.

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Priyanka

    It’s so unfortunate that as right as you are – AND YOU ARE OVERWHELMINGLY CORRECT – your point will fall on deaf ears.

    “pretty people” are more important than the rest of us… didn’t you know?

    Why don’t you just stop being so god damned bitter and be happy for the pretty people. They are living wonderful lives for you and me… we should be happy for them because they deserve it more than us. Get over your ugly self and be happy for the pretty people…

  • Priyanka

    Haha, Kenny.

    Here’s another fun story. I was having drinks with a friend of mine last night, who is senior investment banker at one of the major banks, and he told me that since he’s in charge of the hiring most of the time, he tends to select girls he would want to fuck. And then he always ends up sleeping with them and using them as friends with benefits. The girls he chooses tend to be hot Asian girls and the like.

    You’re right, we should just get over our ugly selves and applaud the pretty people for bravely overcoming all their obstacles in life!

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    Priyanka, it’s good to see you are coming to your senses. We ugly fucks really should cherish all the prosperity pretty people achieve and be happy for them. We should even be thankful we are even allowed to live. All rationality and logic dictates that we fugly folks should be rounded up and removed from society – possibly dealt with by being interned in death-camps. It’s the perfect solution to keep the superior pretty people from the burden of having to view our ugly faces. But being the benevolent beings they are they grant us clemency and allow us to live (albeit solemn, lonely lives). But it’s what we deserve, undesirable, unappealing and worthless as we are…

  • Womanoid

    @angelguard

    “As someone over 40, I think one of the main obstacles I see with pretty women is that they often get more of the wrong attention.
    For them, it is difficult to distinguish the regular guys from the players.
    So they have a tendency to have their guard up more.”

    Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you for pointing out what most people cannot understand.

  • Joe

    with so many women nowadays playing very hard too get, makes it worse for many of us serious men looking to meet a good woman today.

  • lee

    What about all the women in their early 30’s who aren t sure if they want marriage or children?
    Is it too late for them to figure out what they want?, alot of this blog seems to be saying that, they are heading rapidly if not already into unwanted territory.
    If a woman does not want a man solely for his earning capacity, why must a man want a woman solely for her breeding capacity or looks?
    I don t really think I would want a man who views life and women the way alot of men on this blog seem to.
    It may sound naive but what about just clicking with the right person, regardless of age or bank balance, and with looks being important but not everything.
    Does that just not happen any more? Is it always this constant weighing up of the pro s and cons?

  • Pingback: Most Attractive Girls Require Less Dominance? | Monogamy Game()

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Joe

    What does it matter if you’re a good guy looking for “good” women? If you’re not TALL, dark, handsome, TALL, successful, TALL and popular – then you’re WORTHLESS…

  • http://facebook.com Kenny Fabritius

    @ Womanoid

    You are so naively ignorant.

  • teeve

    I can’t help but think that the notion of being attractive and knowing it is a self instilled notion, usually bought on by reinforcing experiences (not all of which may be positive) and knowing that you are ticking the boxes when it comes to expressing conventional beauty which most of the population of earth finds beautiful. Most, but not all.

    Unfortunately I believe many people don’t believe that they have this sort of quality because of doubts bought on by bullying in earlier life, and because people do not disclose this sort of information to the person who is beautiful until they’ve had private time, if then. People are more likely to say someone else who isn’t in your immediate peer group is sexy than someone you’ve known for a while. Mainly because it would be the nice awkward, but we don’t like that because we are human.

    For my teenager years and the beginning of my adult life, people that I have been immensely attracted to have also been attracted to me, and as I have been propositioned for dates and the like, I thought they were not being serious, like it was a continuation of the cruel joke like the people I knew in school would do in order to wind me up. And as it turns out, they were being serious.

    I know what you’re thinking: Worlds smallest hairdryer, your tears. Got it.

    So, by lumping all the people ordained as ‘attractive’ into a group that you can optionally avoid, and not to take what they fancy, but to take somebody that somebody else would enjoy so much more in terms of physical attraction because of your own shortcomings. It is passive white knighting of you’re type to the point that you won’t even try to get with them because you are pointlessly disgraced with yourself.

    (That is, since we are being superficial enough to throw all ‘attractive’ people into one big pot, we might as well admit that it is on a physical level here, since its a huge, nay, THE deciding factor on whether or not we even want to even speak to someone in a properly flirtatious context when it comes to selecting a partner)

    So basically, as a result, I have been unrelenting to never compromise on what *I* think is physically beautiful in my escapades. The last thing on my mind is whether or not they find themselves too sexy for me. People say drop your standards, that comes to the basics such as hygiene and decorum rather than beauty.

    I try my best to be a 10, so I can score my own 10. And thats that. It takes work for each sex and sexuality. When it comes to the way I look, I feel that I look ‘normal’ rather than ‘beautiful’, and I stick the beauty on when its the weekend. Im not really interested in adapting suggestive behaviour and utilising my alluring looks to get people to do things for me at work.

    Im also a dude, so im not sure it’d work, but hey, I can give it a try.

    I mean, put it this way, when someone discovers your partner (who you think is a 5) and treats them like they’re a 10, guess what is going to happen?

    I’m only really covering 99 percent of people earth, and these people are most likely to have someone who finds them beautiful somewhere on this earth.

    I suppose I am lucky that in my taste in my preferred sex is very different from my friends as well….and theres that.
    The last thing on my mind is a flat stomach, and I like big butts and I can not lie. My mates, the trimmer variety. Nothing wrong either way.

  • Molly

    The fact that people are actually trying to argue that very attractive women have it HARDER in life than average or ugly people is at best comical and at worst incredibly ignorant and offensive. Seriously. How deluded, self-absorbed and ARROGANT do you have to be to think that?

    “Pretty girls” have their own share of unique problems and challenges. That’s obvious enough. But in no way are they worse (or, in my opinion, as bad) as those of the rest of us poor plebeians.

    So everyone rolls out the red carpet for you everywhere you go because of your looks and you get infinite amounts of attention, but people occasionally call you snobby when you reject them or judge you before getting to know you. Cry me a river. Would you rather be called the kinds of names ugly girls get called? Would you rather be judged and ostracized in the much harsher ways ugly girls are judged and ostracized?

    And let me make this very clear: MEN HARASS, MOLEST AND RAPE ALL KINDS OF WOMEN, “BEAUTIFUL” OR NOT. To suggest that only pretty women risk harassment is an ignorant and downright dangerous idea to spread!

  • Lindsey

    @kenny fabritius

    Kenny, perhaps it’s not your looks or stature as the reasoning behind why you can’t find a quality woman, but maybe your lack of confidence, crude comments, bitterness and angst towards all of the attractive people.

    No offense, but pretty people get ridiculed just as much as below average-looking people. It’s just in a different way.

    Therefore, it’s people like you that attractive people do not want to associate with because they fear you’ll judge them and put them down and look down on them just like you claim they do to you. If you wish to be approached, you have to be approachable. Everything you’re saying is hypocritical. And quite frankly, it’s no wonder you cannot land an attractive female. You’re judgmental, rude, obnoxious, and insulting. You’re not making a positive point with your negative approach, instead.. You’re proving to everyone the exact reason why you’re not a likable person. Negative outlooks will only result in negative outcomes.

    Now.. To make another point:

    I’m a pretty attractive young female. I’d say well-above average (not to be taken as conceitedness). I’m intelligent, caring, down-to-earth, well-rounded, witty, and funny. I can easily interact with people in any setting, so there’s not a snobby-factor that comes into play here at all.

    However, when it comes to dating.. I don’t have much luck. I’ve been burner over and over, yet I still stay open-minded and I’m not jaded. I’ve been cheated on numerous times, taken advantage of, treated poorly, been deemed as a “trophy”, constantly am talked to with degradation, been look at as unintelligent and a “dumb blonde”, and have been assumed as very high maintenance and superficial by people who don’t even know me on a conversation level (based on looks alone).

    I don’t ask for handouts, I’ve had to work hard for everything I’ve ever wanted. I am not into people for their money, looks, or what they can do for me but rather their character and how they treat others.

    And in fact, the only guys who attempt to try to talk to me are the players looking to take me home (using a very large amount of cheesy pickup lines and degrading comments). Some of these guys are attractive, some aren’t. But being a player does not attract me and I am not dumb, or someone who falls into the laps of these guys. I would much rather have a decent looking ‘good man’ over a super hot ‘bad boy’.. But the good men don’t approach me. In fact, they don’t even give me a chance to show them I’m not just a pretty face.

    Is very frustrating. I know it may not seem like it, but getting handouts based on looks isn’t exactly exhilarating for self-esteem. It’s almost insulting to know I get a job only because someone wants to sleep with me and not because I’ve earned it. My intelligence is very underestimated, I’m laughed at and not taken seriously.

    Now I understand how this looks to the outside world, oh poor pretty girl complaining even though she gets what she wants. I get it. But just like those less-attractive people who feel the way they do, I have feelings too. And it’s very frustrating to never have someone listen to you because they assume everything that comes out of your mouth is ‘stupid’.

    I think that’s what Susan is trying to get at with her post. Attractive people do have it hard, maybe not hardER but it’s not all peaches and cream for us.

    For the less attractive people saying it’s a world based off looks, it is. But it’s not just the less-attractive that are judged based off their looks, it’s the attractive people, as well. And you are the ones judging us. Just as the corporate CEO who only hires the beauties because he wants to sleep with them. Just as the police officer who let the girl who blew over the legal limit go. Just as the attendant giving out passports let the girl have hers in 3 hours instead of 3 weeks when she ruined her first one.

    I’ve always said.. I can’t wait to be 30, because maybe then people will start taking me seriously.

    Because right now, an attractive female in her twenties is only looked at as a piece of meat.

    Less-attractive people, you’re not the only ones being discriminated against. So stop judging the attractive people for the same stuff you’re complaining about them judging you on.

    It’s a dog-eat-dog world. For everyone.

  • Tara

    @ Lindsey
    I think what you said was very well stated. You are not dumb or hypocritical. I agree with everything you said and I hope you don’t take what Kenny said too personally. I also understand what you’re going through, although I hate to say it probably won’t get easier when you’re in your 30’s. I am 39 and was recently told by a guy that younger men want to sleep with me because I’m their fantasy which apparently is to sleep with an older “hot” woman. It’s degrading and insulting to say the least. All I want is for one man to want to know me for me. Every time I meet someone it always boils down to them wanting to get down my pants, regardless of their age. It’s sickening and depressing. Hang in there. I haven’t completely lost faith in the male race. Hopefully you will find a man who values you for who you are and not as a prize to be won.

  • Lindsey

    @Kenny
    I’m just going to take everything you said to (and cowardly about me) as a compliment. I can’t imagine taking offense to anything that comes out of that infantile and narcissistic mouth of yours. I also don’t take anyone seriously who tells me to grow up when they’re arguing and calling a mid-twenty year old names. I believe child was one of them, also. However I’m not the one subjecting myself to the adolescent level that you are. So there’s that.

    If it helps you sleep better at night, by all means, have at it. However, I think a well-educated shrink might do your disturbed being better. Just my opinion though ;)

    @Tara
    Thank you! As hopeful as it was for me to say (about the 30’s thing), I don’t see it as likely, either. But I’ll keep my faith :) for the both of us! I know plenty of 28-30 year old males whose biggest goal (still) is to see how many females they can conquer in a weekend. Sad, honestly. 70% of them have significant others, too. We’ll always be trophies… but apparently the advice given on this article is to get over it and stop pouting. Us pretty people and all! Haha.

    Sick isn’t it? Hearing from a guy that you’re a younger guy’s fantasy.. not that it isn’t flattering but it almost defies the line of respect that younger guys are supposed to give to you (and all females in general). I guess I don’t really see the difference in how it’s any less disturbing than if they said it about someone of the same age gap as you are to them except the opposite direction of age.

    Ohhhh well..

    A fantasy is a fantasy.. but if a male does it, it’s somehow ‘ok’. If you were the one having a fantasy about younger men, I guarantee it would be a different story. However, their fantasies [in the male mind] are possessing ‘alpha’ male traits, though. Ick.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kenny’s commentary is offensive and inappropriate, and I’m banning him from the site. Apologies to those offended.

  • Kent

    Very interesting article.

    I have known a good number of very attractive women via work (I have worked with models in the ad industry), friends , family (have a number of very attractive Sisters), ect. If a pretty or beautiful woman has it “harder” its mainly due to her. Its the choices she makes from bad mates to bad habits. Lets face facts here. Its a womans world for dating and more so if she is beautiful. A woman’s beauty has incredible power over a man. Beauty is a form of currency. It gets a woman quite alot in this world. Notice, jobs, the better tables,ect…..Any beautiful women I have known that were “eternally single” or had difficulties was due to her bad choices , bad habits (hanging around a bad crowd, not being good to herself – ie drugs, alcohol) or she was just not mentally balanced (self induced, childhood, expectations).

    Conversely, any attractive women that I have know that are happy and together, manage quite well.

    So do attractive women have it harder? Not typcially but if they make bad choices or are not mentally balance, then yes it happens.

  • http://xanga.com Johnny Doe

    @Lindsey
    Lindsey, I am a 31 year old working professional. I would like to take you out on a date if you would be interested. I am pretty easygoing, and I would get to know you for you.

    It’s nice to hear sometimes that people go through same struggles you do in dating.