Do Pretty Girls Have it Harder?

September 11, 2009



If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

Never make a pretty woman your wife

So from my personal point of view

Get an ugly girl to marry you

Jimmy Soul, 1970


bblove

Do beautiful women have a harder time finding real love? I bet Jennifer Aniston thinks so. The woman in this photo writes the great blog Live.to.the.point.of.tears, and is the author of Words to Date By, which I posted a few months ago here at HUS. It’s clear that like everyone else, she’s had her share of disappointments and douchebags, though I have a hard time imagining that she doesn’t get and keep whoever the hell she wants.

Conventional wisdom and research provide lots of evidence that good-looking people enjoy many advantages in life. They make friends more easily, get more promotions at work, and presumably have no trouble attracting members of the opposite sex. They are perceived to have a very high mating value.

So why do I know so many beautiful unhappy and lonely women? I know what you’re thinking: Cry Me a River.

To the rest of us, beautiful people are coasting on their looks, getting all sorts of stuff they didn’t have to work for. When I was in middle school, my family moved from New York to LA. In New York, I’d been feisty and outspoken, confident in my smarts and my Irish looks. When I got to LA I realized right away that things were not going to go so well for me there. Where I was short and curvy, with dark hair, the ideal California girl was…well, you know exactly who she was. She was the woman in this photo.

In the end, guys didn’t like me much in high school, but the girls did. I wound up as court jester to the most beautiful, perfect blondes on campus. I was granted a full array of priveleges, such as going over to help them get ready for formal dances, or coordinating the publicity for their various elections. They effortlessly reeled in all the hottest guys and made them boyfriends.

What’s changed? Well, for one thing, in that era guys derived social status from being able to attract and keep a hot girlfriend. They were pretty much the only guys getting regular sex. Today, that’s been turned upside down. In his 2008 book Guyland, Michael Kimmel makes some interesting observations about the way men aged 18-26 view relationships today:

  • “Because Guyland is so homosocial, it requires the relentless assertion of heterosexuality.”
  • “The guys who appear the most disinterested are the ones who end up being the coolest, and that the girls find most attractive. When women decline sexual advances, they threaten masculinity.  That’s why guys like porn so much:  the women are compliant.”
  • “Sex in Guyland is guys’ sex.  Women are welcome to act upon their sexual desires, but guys run the scene.  Many young women are biding their time, waiting for the guys to grow up and start acting like men.”
  • “If sex were the goal, a guy would have a much better chance of having more (and better) sex if he had a steady girlfriend.  Instead, guys hook up to prove something to other guys.  The actual experience of sex pales in comparison to the experience of talking about sex.”


For guys, scoring sex becomes the most important goal on any given evening. Therefore, it is important to maximize your chances for success by avoiding girls where the risk of rejection is high. Hooking up with a girl deemed unattractive by your buddies is explained away by your drunkenness, and is vastly preferable to “not getting any.” This leads most guys to pursue whatever woman they feel is most likely to accept their advances.

Beautiful women, expecting to have a high mating value, find themselves targeted by only the most sexually aggressive men. These tend to be men who are extremely good-looking and have a strong track record of hooking up with whomever they want. It is they who have the highest mating value, sexually speaking. If they were interested in a relationship, they would likely target girls of similar attractiveness, but few of them are. Often, very good-looking girls discover that they are only the newest challenge, the most difficult sexual conquest, for a popular guy. As long as guys derive status from “banging bitches” instead of having girlfriends, none of this is likely to change.

This short film, Not Pretty, Really was shown at Sundance in 2006. It’s less than three minutes, so hang in there – I especially want you to watch the woman who comes on at 1:50. It’s powerful and moving.

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd4Gpi9ksXw


Last semester, a very good-looking young woman got the following text on her phone late at night from a frat star she barely knew:

ur so hot i wanna cum on your tits 2nite

When she told me about it, she sounded very much like the woman in this film. She said, “Guys say disgusting things to me when they’re drunk. I wish I could meet someone who wanted to get to know me, someone who would get me.”

What happens as men age and presumably become more interested in having a real relationship?

In researching this question, I discovered that the question of why beautiful women are often perpetually unattached is a very popular one on dating and relationship forum sites, which cater to singles in their 20s and older.

A representative sample of male responses:

“I find pretty women intimidating. I would rather approach a less-attractive woman who might accept my advances.”

“Most men are intimidated by good looks. They think that because she looks good, she must be high maintenance, hard to get, already dating, and snobby. The few men that do approach her are all players who like to play head games just to get into her panties and claim her as a trophy. Some men that date beautiful women know this. They know that in most cases, beautiful women are single, fed up of head games and craving for a real man to approach them and desire them for who they are and not solely for their bodies.”

“Guys don’t want other guys drooling over their girlfriend.”

“Men do not like to approach women that they believe everyone wants.”

“Yes, guys do find it harder to talk to extremely attractive girls. Not intimidation necessarily, but a conviction that they’re just not in her league. Girls need to make themselves approachable. They need to try to initiate things, make eye contact with guys that they like. They should smile and be cute.”

“This girl must have already heard all possible pick-up lines and would not welcome an approach.”

“As far as looks go, “cute” is accessible, “pretty” is inaccessible, and “beautiful”, unattainable. A client of mine used to be a fashion model in New York. She’s smart and she has been around long enough to know it’s her looks that guys are interested in, and she won’t put up with it.”

“Remember in school when the quarterback got the prettiest girl? Believe me, guys remember, and not many of us were the quarterback. Men also have problems with self confidence and when presented with a choice between a cute girl that we have a chance with and a pretty girl that seems like a long shot, we are going to play it safe and go with cute. And relationships also have economics- the more attractive the women is the more resources a guy needs to get the girl- a fancy car, nice house, good job, or at least that how it works in a guys head. You can tell me how true that may be, but even if it’s not, the perception may well be more important then the truth.”


What’s a gorgeous girl to do?

  • Bide your time, your day will come.
  • Do not allow yourself to be objectified and used as an opportunity for some player to boast about having nailed you.
  • Focus on friendships first. A guy who cares for you as a friend is less likely to use you, and more likely to develop real feelings.
  • Be approachable, so that nice guys consider taking a chance. When you like a guy, find ways to let him know that he has a shot.


And the rest of us?

  • Hey, their loss is our gain. Most relationships today develop from hookups, and if you’re more likely to get the hookup, you have a better shot at the relationship.
  • Don’t kid yourself, though. You’re just as likely to be objectified and discussed with his peers the next day. If you want a relationship, be smart about who you have sex with.
  • Ditto the rest of the advice: Focus on friendships first. A guy who cares for you as a friend is less likely to use you, and more likely to develop real feelings.
  • Be approachable and friendly. And be yourself, because you are beautiful!

The truth is, we all want to be known, men and women alike. We seek short-term validation, but what we really crave is for someone to really see us, and to love what they see. We may get there at different times, we may get kicked to the curb a few times in the process. All of us, the beautiful and the less so, have an equal shot at happiness and real love with the right person.

  • Sam

    The thing is that text is inappropriate – because his attentions are unwelcome. If they were welcome then it would be a bold flirting gambit to which you might respond differently. The problem is, whether he should or not, he doesn't know if they're unwelcome or not.

    Yes he should have left such texting until it's appropriate to your relationship, but maybe he figures it's a short cut to finding out if he has a chance. It's also possible he likes you, but is rather clueless about interpreting people/women, so has somehow got the idea you would welcome such attention. I guess he's no longer under that misapprehension.

    I should make clear his style is very different from mine, but if you want to understand what's going on it's helpful to focus less on your own reaction to him (which as I pointed out might have been different had he been more attractive to you) and more on what he may have been trying to achieve. I doubt that being disrespectful was his intention. I also don't think this necessarily 'comes back to sex' despite its obvious sexual overtones. He doesn't sounds like the most clue-in guy about approaching women. He probably had a few drinks and completely overplayed what sounds like an already poor hand.

    • Hey, Sam, just want to say welcome to HUS! There are a lot of great discussions happening on various posts about relationships and dating, so have a look around. Thanks for commenting.

    • verie44

      This actually isn’t true. I actually have (had?) a crush on him — I think he’s really an all-around amazing person. His approach totally sucked, but if he were to ask me out I would definitely say yes. He also knows girls well enough to know what kind of interaction works, I know this for a fact. The fact that he chose that one to use on me is disheartening, that’s all I’m saying.

  • Steve

    This is a really interesting topic and I have oft thought of the various issues attractive women have to deal with-and its enlightening to hear some stories.
    However I must just get one thing straight in my mind – I dont think in any way attractive women have it worse than more moderate or less attractive women. I just think that they have a different set of problems. Given the multitude of benefits available to attractive women I cant help but feel a little sardonic about the idea of beautiful women exclaiming about how hard they have it…and a less attractive woman often leads a very testing life ending up working hard and give her energy selflessly to strive for self-worth….

    Im sorry if that sound cynical but I have to vocalise it…

    Ok now I have stated that – I do sympathise with the grossness that women have to put up with. I was walking home with a friend from work the other day who is a gorgeous and lovely blonde – and some motorist came past us and turned right and as he did it he shouted ‘I’ll have sex with you tonight’. I have to say I was flattered but guys arent really my thing-and the car he was dri….

    Seriously tho she was perplexed and I honestly didnt know what to say about it – to check if she was upset…It must be pretty unpleasant to be objectified like that by some random beast.
    I think it comes down to what type of person you are and how you learn to deal with your looks. If you are sensitive person – you might be upset by the rampant attention. I totally sympathise with that – as it might often be a bit too much what with the way guys are sometimes. Ive recently put on a bit of weight due to a health problem – but previously I have had been regarded as very handsome. There have been times when Ive put on one of my extremely sharp tailored suits to go out in and I walked into a place and felt a strong sense of people staring at me – and got a lot of attention. Although I like to look good – being quite sensitive and if I felt low that day – I actually didnt always like that extra attention – it felt a bit much. The thing is this adoration has not been earnt.
    On those occasions I remember thinking to myself ‘this is what women must have to deal with ALL THE TIME-being stared at whilst having no idea about who they are inside’…that must be difficult.
    If you are not sensitive you might be narcissistic then good looks might become a power issue and something that leads you to be manipulative…or maybe you can learn that good looks are just one level of who you are and associate with others who have a strong sense of self and feel the same?
    Anyways just comments – Im learning a lot from this blog thanks Susan and others for the discussion. Particularly enjoyed your extended monologue Dashiell. Sadly Im not so lucid or eloquent today…but I guess….at least I got to say lucid and eloquent in a last gasp attempt at proving my articulacy in a slightly absurd way-trying to be funny. And a little sleep deprived. Bye!x

    • Hi Steve,

      I hear you – and I think you’re right that beautiful women just have a different set of problems. One of the reasons I wrote this article is that so often women feel that if only they were as hot as “so and so” they’d have it made. Also, it depends on what a person wants. There are probably many beautiful women who love getting free stuff and lots of attention from random strangers. However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.

      I think you make an excellent point about earning admiration. A beautiful woman may get a lot of guys chasing her, but she will often feel that they don’t see the real her. Her looks get in the way. And as you say, gratuitous sexual attention is offensive.

      I will agree that narcissists are often good looking, and I’m not sure which comes first. Are they people who have lazily learned to rely on their looks to get them ahead? Or are they narcissists who can be especially toxic due to their good looks?

      • Michael

        There are probably many beautiful women who love getting free stuff and lots of attention from random strangers. However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.

        This might seem like a radical idea, but maybe those women, who do not want to initiate being approached by players, should approach men to whom they are attracted.
        .-= Michael´s last blog ..Michael is now friends with eldorado Restaurant lounge =-.

        • Yes, I encourage this. A good start is a smile and three seconds of eye contact, which is the threshold for attraction.

      • Steve

        “One of the reasons I wrote this article is that so often women feel that if only they were as hot as “so and so” they’d have it made.”

        Very fair point – yes I hear this sentiment a lot if indirectly…actually that made it a lot clearer!

        “However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.”

        This makes a lot of sense – and it must over time become a point of disillusionment…probably at first it is exciting while younger…

        Yeah – men and women’s value is in so much more that their image and appearance. The subject of narcissism is an interest of mine and I recently read a very revealing book on the subject. Many people view narcissism as someone who loves themselves. However narcissists dont and cannot love themselves or others. They are obsessed with creating a fixed mask to hide emotional numbness. They cannot accept their true authentic ‘self’. They seek power (in their image) to dominate from a deep fear of being humiliated. Its something thats thought to be caused by some emotional trauma in childhood…the source of which is outside the scope of this post…

        But there is a wider concept of narcissism in our society now days that did not used to exist to such an extent. The image – how we look and display ourself – is of huge importance in our society. This is my opinion is out of balance. Core values of dignity, respect and authenticity in our society take second place now to appearance and power. Previously in cultures an individual would gain high status from having a dignified and wise character. However now we have the age of celebrity where people will do anything to gain power through fame – they are prepared to trash their dignity in order to get it.
        How does this relate to female issues? Well its understood by some that looks count for females – more so than males. I propose then a narcissistic society will only take this (proposed) evolutionary norm and drive it out of balance. And so no wonder beautiful women feel disillusioned by men who are not interested in their true ‘self’ – their character and who they are on a deeper level.
        Im still developing my thoughts on this so please excuse me if something doesnt quite sound right or some of my generalisations are clumsy….but the more I understand the more I see the lack of value of the feminine nature that exists in our western society. As opposed to the surface image-to which huge value is attributed. No wonder beautiful women feel angry-its like they are being put on a pedestal for only one fraction of their potential. So rarely do I ever hear of anyone praising how nurturing, caring, loving a girl is. And at worst if someone is very caring they can even be manipulated or used-rather than adored and praised for this trait. All billboards ever display is physical beauty. I never read an advert that says ‘She blooms life, she pours love and nurture into her children to create positivity, The foundation of life is built on her love – the glue that holds the family unit together…’.
        Maybe thats just not sexy enough and sex sells – our society is obsessed with a sort of immature form of sex – rather than a true representation of what sex is. Narcissistic also I guess.
        Just like us humans are not living in balance with the earth at the mo (destroying it and trying to control it), I also believe our society is completely out of touch with the importance of the feminine nature. Its kind of shameful when I think about it…of course there are worse examples (Sharia law etc) – but still – its something that often people dont realise how important it is perhaps because we are now so bombarded by image all the time rather than taught the issues of real value in life.

        • Steve, I agree completely. Does the book you read go into this more contemporary view of narcissism? I’m quite interested in this topic. Actually, I just put up a post that addresses what you’re talking about here. It’s not really my usual fare – we’ll see how it goes over.

  • Lily

    Honestly it sounds so conceited to agree with this but even last night I had numerous uncomfortable situations related to this topic (people think I’m conventionally beautiful)… I went to town with my mixed group of friends to play pool, I was just wearing jeans, ballet shoes and a peacoat, and I still got drunk guys saying the rudest things to me. I also got called a snobby bitch twice by different guys after I didn’t respond to their passing comments (even though I smiled politely). Wow. Then on the drive home my flatmate asked me again why I don’t have a boyfriend and told me I was really weird because of it (he had been constantly hitting on me lately which makes my life so uncomfortable). Lastly I talked to a guy I met recently and have hungout with a few times and talk to a lot online… super funny, smart, good looking.. which I thought was finally a good sign and that he liked me or whatever… then he proceeded to tell me that he was ‘pleasantly suprised at how pleasant I was’ after getting to know me. I questioned this, to which he pretty much stated he expected me to be dumb because I look like a shallow and fashionable person, and that he was suprised that I love to read and know about things he doesn’t. Like Kierkegaard. Or Lutherism. Um, is that a compliment? I look like a dumb snobby bitch… thanks. By this stage I wanted to cry myself to sleep. Ha. Also last night found out my incredibly beautiful best friend from high school ( like Megan Fox, Angelina Jolie beautiful!) is on heavy medication and suicide watch because she tried to kill herself 2 weeks ago. So please don’t think people who are ‘good looking’ have life easy because no one does. P.S. I’m only 20 so sorry if this reads like a ramble in Cosmopolitan.

    • Lily, thanks for leaving a comment. I wrote this post because I have heard a lot of stories like this from really attractive women. So often people believe that if only they were better looking they’d have it made and be happy. Of course, it doesn’t work that way. We all have our problems. I’m sorry your friend is so troubled- I hope she will get help and get better.

  • Miranda

    This is a great post! There’s no way of saying this without seeming full of myself, so I’ll just say it: I’m a noticeably attractive woman. By that I mean that I get a lot of compliments from strangers daily, I get stared at a lot, and occasionally I’ll get something free.

    But, I wasn’t always this way; I used to be 80 lbs heavier and I was virtually invisible to most men. The attention and perks are all VERY new to me (it started in January when I moved to the most shallow city in existence- LA) so I know how it is to be on both sides of the tracks. Life really is… different for pretty people. I’ve watched the difference in my own life, and those changes are both good and bad.

    While people are much nicer and trusting towards me, I really do feel like a lot of the new friends I have only like me because I’m pretty. And I’m certain that I only got my newest job as a hostess at a restaurant because of my looks. While at work I get a lot of unwelcome comments from male customers, and older men seem to think that it’s perfectly fine to touch me without my permission. And like Lily, if I reject a guys advances I’m immediately called “snobby” or a b*tch.

    Also, lately I’ve felt like a lot of guys I date think of me as some sort of accomplishment. Like, they’ll immediately take me around their friends and I can’t help but think it’s because they want to show me off. And on top of this, I think that a lot of guys with good intensions are afraid to approach me or show interest in me for fear of rejection, so I have to make it painfully obvious that I like a guy before he’ll initiate something with me.

    Don’t get me wrong, overall I’m loving this newfound attention and popularity, but this article is very true. It doesn’t bother me too much though, I feel like because I attract more guys, I’m more likely to eventually meet a really good one.

    • Miranda, that’s fabulous, congratulations! Of course you are enjoying the admiration of men! It’s very interesting that you’ve experienced it both ways and can be objective about the difference in the way you’re perceived now that you are thin.

      I agree completely that by attracting many guys, your odds of meeting a good man are high. It’s good that you recognize the need to signal your interest, so that a man who isn’t cocky or a player will still feel confident approaching you.

      I wish you all the best!

      • Poly Desi

        Miranda, you had a boyfriend take you around to meet your friends because he wanted to “show you off”, I’ve had the opposite! I was involved with a man who, while everyone else said I was beautiful, was ashamed of me because I was not his usually “ethnic type”. It feels horrible to be thought of as “attractive” by everyone but the man who is supposed to “love” you.

  • Kurt

    I joined a new gym a couple years ago and there was girl who was good looking and I think she was a little taller than me. I saw her running on the treadmill and noticed her but never assumed that she would be interested because I had always assumed that tall girls wanted tall guys. Well a week later I was stretching in a small stretching area near the treadmills and I sat down next to her because it was crowded there was no where else to sit and stretch that day. I looked over to see the people running and I saw that she was staring right at me. I looked away and then back and she was still staring at me. I was in total shock and I couldn’t even talk. I was embarrassed about that, and I did eventually manage to talk to her, although I thought I had blown my chance by the time I spoke with her. (If the same thing were to happen to me today, two years later, I think I handle it much better.)

    So I think that pretty women do have it harder because sometimes even if they do give guys eye contact, the guys don’t know always what it means anyway.

  • Bob

    “I personally know at least a dozen young women who are the whole package: Lovely to look at, smart, curious, funny, interesting, generous. And they’re all unattached.”

    Oh really? Prove it. Personally Susan, I call BS on your claim. Experience and the school of hard knocks lead me to my conclusions.

  • A.M.

    Thanks for this article! I know I get damn offended when people assume that I have it all laid out for me because I’m pretty, intelligent and well-groomed, because in my experience it just isn’t true. When I was a plain, dorky teenager with frizzy dishwater hair boys would talk to me; as soon as I grew out of my awkwardness, being a late bloomer, they just completely dried up. On the other hand, all my less pretty friends have bagged wonderful men as long-term boyfriends.
    The only guys who approach me now are douchy let-me-buy-you-a-drink-and-spike-it types who make it absolutely plain that they’re only after bragging rights. If I reject them coldly and so make myself look unattainable – ladies, would you feel good about knowing that the only men who don’t treat you like a pretty leper are only after descriptions of how you do in bed?

    Thankfully, nature’s given me options so I don’t have to settle for rubbish men. Thumbs up for that, Mother Nature – I appreciate it greatly.

    • A.M., thanks for leaving a comment. I have a question – Mother Nature gave you options – but how do you connect with men if they’re intimidated by you?

  • Calvin

    Pretty girls get everything given to them. So yes, they do have it easier.

  • karen

    I agree with everything the writer says. I’ve always been an introvert who was more interested in politics and current events than the latest reality show. As a teenager and college student I had bad hair, bad acne, didn’t wear makeup, and was totally ignored by guys. I distinctly remember being introduced to one particular guy 3 times in a one month period in college and he never remembered me. I was invisible to the opposite sex. I’m in my late 20’s now and my appearance has definitely changed for the better. I can walk into a room and both men and women turn to stare at me. I’ve been allowed to enter clubs without having to wait in line. Yet, I’m still single. Guys stare at me but never approach me. They know my name even though I don’t know theirs. My current job leaves little opportunity for meeting single men. When other females find out I’m single, they are shocked because it is naturally expected that I have a current boyfriend. My female coworkers are surprised to learn that I spend my weekends by myself.

    I used to think that attractive women have it easier but I was wrong.

    • Karen, welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. If you want guys to feel comfortable approaching, you’re going to have to actively encourage them. Make eye contact (3 seconds is the threshold for attraction) and smile. Also, don’t rely on the bar/club scene. You’re going to have better luck in situations where you can get to know someone and make them feel like they have a shot. Since your work does not afford this opportunity, it means pursuing interests and friendships in other ways. I wrote a post about this:
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/05/15/hookinguprealities/57-ways-to-meet-the-love-of-your-life/

  • Julia M.

    Hi Susan,
    I’m a 20 year old college student and I really related to this article. There’s no way of saying this without sounding vain, so I’ll just say it – I’m attractive; I get frequent comments in the streets, have been approached for modeling, get hit on only by the meathead player-types, and people are always shocked to hear I don’t have a boyfriend. In fact, I’ve never had a boyfriend. I’ve never even been kissed. This is likely a consequence of my shyness going up. During high school I was completely absorbed in my studies and genuinely had not developed interest in boys yet. Now that I am interested in dating, I have no idea where to start. I am still very shy around boys because, as said before, I have literally zero experience. I don’t even have any good guy friends. When talking to a guy I’m interested in, I get very nervous and turn bright red. To avoid this, I tend to put up walls and avoid contact altogether. I know this only makes me seem standoffish and intimidating but am often too afraid to take the risk of opening up. I know that you’ve said pretty girls have to encourage men to make them more comfortable, but I have no clue how to do this. Do you have any suggestions on how to overcome shyness in this situation? I’m just fed-up with passing up guys I’ve been interested in simply because I don’t know how to indicate my interest without clamming up and feeling insecure. I’m not interested in the hookup culture and am just looking for an authentic connection with someone.
    Any advice would be very much appreciated!

  • Hi Julia, welcome! If you’re shy you need to take it slow. Definitely stay away from the meatheads! I would try to meet people naturally around a common interest – both women and men. Try being a friend first – and if you like a guy, you can begin to let him know by giving him some special attention, perhaps touching his arm, smiling and making eye contact, etc. If you are very attractive, your odds of being liked back are going to be pretty high, so I would encourage you to go for it if you catch feelings for someone. Your biggest problem is likely to be all all of your guy friends want more, but hey, that’s just the price you pay for being hot…

  • karen

    Thanks for commenting but I’m also dealing with the fact that any guy that I’m remotely friendly to thinks that I am attracted to him.  When my looks changed for the better I became friends with one guy who actually approached me and talked to me.  I made it clear that I only wanted to be his friend. I also was not physically attracted to him at all. Fast forward two years later and he decides that it is time for us to be more than friends.  I say I still only want to be his friend and he never talks to me again.  He was so angry with me when I rejected his advances. Before my looks changed, guys only considered me as a friend, no matter how friendly I was was them or how much I blushed and stammered in the presence of a particular guy.  Now, if I even talk too long to a guy or even look in his general direction, a guy thinks that I am interested in him when I’m not.  I’m so used to being invisible that now it scares me to be the female who get the attention of most guys.  I don’t know what to do with it.

  • Nicky

    As a male I find your article skewed here’s why (from a guys perspective and social psychology):

    1. Being a player has nothing to do with looks. There is no relationship to womanizing and a guys looks (social psych lit mentions that a man’s looks has little correlation to how he dates, its the opposite for women.). Although attractive men are the rare breed that actually get ‘hit on’ by women. This is what people are missing.

    2. Attractive women do not have it harder in life. they have an easier time (work life friends) and can draw from a massive pool of eligible men. They can afford to be picky. The rare 10’s are often met with resentment jealousy and admiration by other women below her looks wise. Still this does not detract from her overall social value in life. This is the only major con an extremely attractive woman can have.

    3. Most women, any women, are objectified by men. It is a patriarchial leftover from our traditional culture. Thats why feminism arose.

    4. Hooking up is less advantageous for average women because they draw in less men and most of these men do not want commitment and if they did they would want the best looking woman they can get. Related to no. 2.

    5. Attractive women are single, but never miss out on dates. They can afford to be picky. Also related to no.2

    6. the male response is deceitful. Here’s why: average men do not ask out women straight away. They play the ‘friends’ card first. Its funny they end up in it too most often.

    7. Where does the attractive woman get all this wrong attention from? It cant be from attractive men because as part of the bell curve, like attractive women, they are rare. This wrong attention they’re getting comes from the average to low average dudes using deceitful techniques, and bad pickup lines.

    8. Your guyland post about hot guys banging the most chicks vs. the traditional hot guys settle with hot chicks makes no sense. It is a two way street that is enacted upon in the hookup culture. Women also engage in this behavior. This also has nothing to do with being attractive.

    9. Attractive women have it harder because they can be more picky. Attractive women draw from a lesser pool of extremely rare attractive men. Being an attractive woman has not correlation to sexual promiscuity (social psych). Being more attractive saves a woman from promiscuity actually.

    10. The girls in that sundance film are a far shot from being really attractive. They fall within the normal bell curve- 5’s to 7.5’s.

  • dream puppy

    Attractive women have it much harder when they start to believe their own hype. I touched upon this on Darlock’s blog. A lot of men will put pretty girls up on pedestals- its no wonder many start to think that they are head and shoulders above everyone else….and then they become too picky, rejecting perfectly good mates for Billionaire Tom Brady look a like who never comes.

    However, aside from the problems that arise from being willfull and choosy, it is better to be a pretty girl than an ugly girl. Life is easier. You have more choice of dates, and when problems arise you have a better chance of getting them solved.

    I was never a beauty queen, but am definitely above average. Recently, after driving my husband crazy for the 10,000th time I broke some mundane rule, he turned to me and said:

    The rules just don’t apply to you eh?

    I thought long and hard about it, and realized, that in many instances, they haven’t.
    1) I was allowed to drive home by a policeman after blowing over the alcohol limit
    2) I have been pulled over 4 times for bad driving and given a ticket only one of those times (and another officer at the court reduced it)
    3) I washed my passport before an international trip and got a new passport in 3 hours (it usually took 3 weeks)

    I don’t know if these are good things. They have made me a little spoiled and reckless, but I know they wont last forever. I don’t feel that conflicted about it though. I know I’ll miss it when its gone…..

  • Sabrina

    I was actually not going to watch this video. WOW ! But after watching this video, I realize now what is going on. I am sad sometimes when men stare at me. It is difficult for me to figure out what their thinking. It makes me nervous. Yes now I believe I have been used by men who bragged about it later. I feel like the girl in 1:50, but it’s difficult for me to bring my self to tears. I want to. I wish there was a way that a beautiful woman could avoid feeling ashamed or embarrassed. Such a real break through!! I needed this.

  • Cheryle

    Imagine every person on a bus looking up towards you and then staring all the way to your destination. Or image walking onto the train and every head on that train turns. Imagine just walking in the grocery store and having men and women stop what they are doing and just turn towards you as you walk by. I smile a sweet smile if anyone makes eye contact with me. I say “Hi” to some people who make eye contact (young, old, fat, slender, male, female, tall, short)and they look shocked that I said “Hi”. Like beautiful people are not supposed to be nice or something. I just do not get that thought process.

    I am told that I look like Uma Thurman, Cindy Crawford or Shania Twain at least seven times a week. I do not have as high of an opinion about my physical make up as others seem to. I do not keep track of the latest celebrity, the latest look, or the latest fashion. I wear tinted moisturizer, Burt’s Bees lip protector, put my hair in a french twist, wear Eddie Bauer crew necks, long pants, and basically think….Well, here I am , take it or leave it.
    I dress for comfort, not to entice or to create interest.

    I know that I contribute to society by working with children, volunteering my cooking skills at a homeless shelter, giving blood to the American Red Cross, and by donating high nutrient food items to our local food pantry. I know that I make a difference in other people’s lives so I just live day to day taking it all in stride.

    Let them stare — I am just human. If beautiful people would just not get involved with the hype that surrounds the myth of beauty, then life can be rather normal.

  • pretty lonely

    People seem to think I’m attractive. I’m 27, tall & slender, working on a masters degree. I have continuosly attracted guys who keep me around, we end up cultivating a great friendship & spend tons of time together, but I end up feeling stuck as the girlfriend instead of their partner, they never want to marry ME. They never buy me meaningful or sentimental gifts like I do (doesn’t have to be expensive to be meaningful). I am still keeping hope at age 27 that I will find a husband but am becoming worried.
    I have had to work hard to get where I am, pay for college on my own, support myself, I had a difficult childhood and worked hard to overcome that. I do volunteer work, I have lot’s of hobbies like playing guitar, writing music, making short films. I can hold my own in a conversation and enjoy topics like politics, film, music, cultural affairs, however, I am in no way overbearing and I am a generous listener. These discussions are always fun, not argumentative or competitive in nature.
    I am considering chopping off my hair to make myself less attractive, I wear very little makeup, I dress in higher quality age appropriate clothing that’s not revealing. I feel I need to start playing the field of men, because it would improve my chances of ever getting married at this point. Maybe if there’s competition I won’t be taken for granted. I’ve spent 4 years with two different men exclusively only to find out he’s not going to propose, that’s 8 years of my life! Since men are such flakes there’s no way I’m going to have kids. Based on men’s behavior I greatly fear becoming a struggling single mom for life. I am trying to find a great partner and marry him, that’s it, I don’t even care if we ever own a home, and I don’t even need a wedding, going to the courthouse is FINE. I have reasonable expectations, certainly lower expectations than my married friends. The most insulting thing is when people assume I’ve had everything handed to me on a silver platter, I don’t let that pass, and they certainly look shocked & apologetic when I set their little selves straight. Another “problem” is that I am also a “nice girl” and nice girls seem to finish last. People used to say I must have men lined up around the block, anything could be further from the truth and I am starting to feel bitter resentment that the girls who are self absorbed and demand constant attention are landing all the blokes. Books I’ve read seem to suggest that being myself is a bad thing, and that’s why I’m still single. Apparently in order to win a man’s respect I have to play the “game” and be very hard to obtain, a “challenge”. Lately to deal with the disappointment I have turned to buddhism and found some relief there. The only way to win it seems is to desire nothing. For me, my life is naturally driven by love, so there is a great void since I have no partner to share it with. I have lived alone and independently for years, however, it feels unnatural to live alone now and I long to share my life with a mate who has a deeper understanding of life. I guess it’s up to me to initiate things and be the one to pursue men since guys rarely approach me, (they just stare at me, check me out). As usual I have to do everything myself *irritated sigh The fairy tales should have the woman rescuing & sweeping prince charming off his feet, that seems more realistic for today’s “standards”. Ha! How jaded am I?

  • great post!
    there is a darkside to everything. i am a curvy, wear alot of black have dark hair wear nerdy glasses, my younger sis is petite with a “nice” body. i have been witness to how men treat her, looks glances, or heard her tell me stories of older men in their late 30s at work. sexual inuendo ect.
    i use to think she had it so good, until i realized we both had it good and bad in different ways.

  • also my beautiful sister doesnt know she is beautiful. i have realized many “beautiful women” dont know they are beautiful.
    i on the other hand think im gorgeous too bad the rest of the world doesn’t know it. 😉

  • Marc

    Pretty girls that say they are rarely approached don’t know the other side of the coin. Ask an average woman and a pretty woman how often they are approached in a month…you’ll see.

    Another issue not discussed here, which is very important; is leagues. Most younger people shoot out of their leagues for many years. Unfortunately, we don’t determine our own leagues, the public in general does. Water finds it’s own level, and the process can be painful.

    I am guilty of this also. I consider myself a solid 8 who pursues 9-10, while the 6-7-8’s pursue me. In time, I will capitulate, but only when I “am getting old”. I will date these women briefly, but always am looking for something better.

    With women, they many times waste their youth/beauty getting free stuff, dating tons of bad boys, taking free trips with old men, sleeping around, etc. They don’t even give any thought to offering their future husband their “good years”. Then, when they have “had their fun”, they look to offer their husband stretch marks, wrinkles, unhealthy hair, etc. THE GUY THEY COMMIT TO, THE ONE WHO WILL SUPPORT HER THE REST OF HER LIFE, DOESNT EVEN HAVE A MEMORY OF WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG AND HOT!!!! The club heads and players got the hot, young body…..the husband gets the high mileage one!

    As her looks fade into her thirties, her standards don’t. She still thinks she deserves the life she had ten years ago. That’s when the bitterness sinks in. Ladies, cash in your chips early, BEFORE the looks fade. Give your future husband your best years….you know he deserves it.

  • Kurt

    @Marc, this is kind of off-topic, although I do agree with you and am amazed when I see women in their late-30s struggling with dating even though they were probably above-average looking if not hot during their 20s. A lot of those women are bitter because they got used to bad boy-type douchers kissing their asses when they were younger and better looking, and now they have ridiculously high expectations despite having little to offer as they reach the end of their fertility. Of course, none of the guys they dating during their 20s wanted to marry them, as they were nothing other than a piece of easy ass.

    I don’t think that some attractive women in their 20s really realize how good they have things until their looks start rapidly fading. Dating is so much easier for women at that age than it is for men, but too many women waste their best years.

  • Jess

    Dear pretty lonely,
    Sorry to hear your story pretty lonely. You are are obviously ready for an LTR.
    I would suggest speed dating, just to get back into flirting.
    .
    Don’t be over keen though, it can appear needy and also be sure you really like him for him.
    Dont just stay with a guy cos you want to be married.

  • Jess

    To girls:
    If you don’t want to be checked out change the way you dress.
    If you have a half decent body and wear a shortish dress men will check you out.
    When I was younger, I had a baby face and slim body but by dressing casually I was almost invisible. When I put a mini skirt on men virtually salivated in public.
    So don’t underestimate the power of clothing.

  • Jess

    To Marc and Kurt
    Yuk to everything you said
    I wish I could erase your comments from every girl who ever reads those comments.
    .

    You do realize you are reducing everything down to youth and beauty?
    My best years are ahead of me.
    I am 40, have more wisdom, have a few tricks in the sack I never had at 20, and pobably have a better dress sense than when I was at college.
    True I have a few more lines and I’m proud of every one of them.
    I would certainly find a 30 yo mam more attractive this his 20 yo edition
    I think when you grow up a bit you may have a different perspective.
    .
    I would say to girls to enjoy life whilst you can.
    True one should always aim realistically but beauty is only skin deep.
    .
    Thev bitterness I see from girls is due to men cheating or being lied to.
    Plenty of women have fun young and settle later in life, just like a billion men before them.
    Please dimiss the comments of Marc and Kurt. Its not 1940.

  • terre

    On the contrary: girls, I would quite studiously ignore Jess’ comments. The pleasures of youth may be strong and intoxicating, but when the baby rabies kick in (and they do for every girl once she crosses the threshold) you’ll be in a world of hurt trying to find a suitable mate. Your fertility begins to drop at 25, and by Jess’ 40 it’s entirely vanquished. The choice is yours, but at least give it some measure of thought.

  • Jess

    I have my 2 kids so vanquishment be damned.
    Fertility really drops off at 38 according to the NHS.
    From 18 onwards there is a slight drop-off on the graph or increased risk of complication.
    So according to terries logic all 17 year old girls should try and get pregnant.
    .
    As it happens in terms of genetic disease, the mans age often is more critical. ( nhs info).
    This is because sperm is manufactured during the lifetime of the man whereas eggs are made in utero and then stored so the dna is always pristine.
    .
    If you marry young and then get divorced does that help girls?
    What if they marry young, to the wrong person and waste precious years?
    Isn’t it better to have fun, know what you want and make a good choice? A lasting choice?
    Where are these women that terre are speaking about?
    In my experience active women tend to get the guy. Just an observation across many countries. The women who are childless are that way irrespective of sexual freedoms. Again just an observation.

  • terre

    First of all, I’ve no idea where you got the NHS information that “fertility really drops off at 38”. That’s completely wrong. Women have 12% of the ovarian reserve they were born with by age 30, and 3% by age 40, by which point the rate of miscarriage will also be over 50%. Her fertility peaks at 26 and declines at 30. Down syndrome is also extremely common in babies born to mothers older than ~35.

    Secondly, the risk of a marriage ending in divorce steeply increases once a girl has at least one extramarital sexual partner. This is probably due to the effects of pair bonding. I’m not really advocating that girls marry at 17 or do anything bar whatever it is they want (why waste my breath?) but they should understand the consequences of their choices, and those are no longer in question.

  • Obsidian

    Jess,
    I have to ask: what is the point of you being here?

    My reason for asking is because, I’ve been reading your comments here in this venue for sometime now, and they seem incredibly defensive. Not that there’s anhything wrong with that per se, but it is interesting to see. It seems like your defending something, and I want to know what that something is.

    As to the current topic at hand…

    In terms of the USA, all the data as we have it, from sources such as the US Census etc, it clearly shows noted patterns. For one thing, when it comes to divorce, Men remarry at much higher rates than do Women, and this is especially true the older they get. Moreover, the former tends to marry much younger the second time around than the latter, if the latter remarries at all.

    Second, Women over 35 have a much harder time in the SMP than do Men of the same age. By the time tnhey both hit 40, the Men are having a much better time of it in aggregate, than are the Women; for all intents and purposes, and again I’m speaking in aggregate terms here, the Women begin to become invisible sexually, to the vast majority of Men. In general, and in the main, Men prefer younger to older Women, all things being equal. Yes, there are some exceptional Women out there who can continue to attract Men regardless as to their own age. You may indeed be one of them. But all it takes is a quick look around to confirm what I am saying in the main, is indeed true. Nor am I making a grand value judgment statement here. I don’t have a dog in the fight and it makes me no difference one way or another. I am simply just stating what by now be easily observable facts of life.

    Holla back

    O.

  • Jess

    Hi all,
    No I don’t mind you asking at all. I make regular comments on a number of blogs ranging from third world politics to feminism to Palestine.
    I used to be very political and a lapsed member of various pressure groups.
    .
    Blogging saves me from bending the ear of my partner I guess.
    I only engage in threads that interest me or I have personal experience of.
    .
    I guess therefore that my reasons for posting are similar to other posters but you would have to ask them to be sure.

  • Jess

    Terre
    I was perhaps sloppy with my terminology.
    If you don’t like the nhs as a suorce then you could go the baby centre web site.
    fertility does drop continuously from 18 to 50 but that just means it takes longer for a 35 yo to get pregnant than a 25 yr old.
    What is critical is the infertility graph and that spikes at……38!
    .
    There is also a corresponding spike with diseases but they are still relatively rare.
    Do remember many genetic issues come from the sperm anyway.

  • Josh

    Why is it “being approachable” is so far down the list on things for “hot girls” to do. Good guys are sick of being treated like crap because of stigmas.

  • Jess

    Instead of spike I should have said sudden increase.
    .
    Obsidian,
    I haven’t looked at the data myself but am happy to accept the trends you assert.
    The thing is there is always other factors at play.
    I guess a guy would prefer a girl of 25 to 35 but what if the older one was his sexual and spiritual soul mate?
    The trends you mention are not of identical humans so extrapolation is iffy.
    .
    My grandmother lived a life of servitude and sexual repression.
    I, lucky cow, lived an exciting fun life and have been blessed with 2 happy kids.

  • Jess

    Thus you will understand I would prefer any child of mine to enjoy the freedoms I had.
    And ‘marry before you are on the shelf’ is something my grandmother was told. Yuk.

  • Sharon Cox

    Jess,

    Stop it please! Grow up and face reality. All of us 40+ girls are less desireable, …and thats it! You love your wrinkles??? Shut up stUpid. You love being 40+ ???? Because I hate it. But, we had our chance with our youth, and we have passed the torch to the new, young beautiful girls. Support them, don’t hate on them. I am jealous….and happy for them.

  • filrabat

    To bring some additional motivation to push ourselves to change our SMP habits:

    A lot of these issues are due to the fact that we’ve only had a post-hunter-gatherer (i.e. post animal) way of living for roughly 10,000 years – which is not even an eyeblink in evolutionary terms (more accurately, 10,000 years is the initial nerve impulse that causes the eyeblink).

    Back in the days when all we had to do to survive was learn how to gather nuts and berries, and make spears, spearpoints, and traps to capture and kill game — it made perfect sense for teenagers to be mothers and fathers. This continued to be arguably true for western peoples well into the Middle Ages. BUT…with the increasing necessity of education and increasing skill demands as time goes on. Even worse, our instincts are more geared for short-term thinking – not long-term. Back in the pre-agricultural, animal-like, eras, what happened as a consequense of actions 10, 20, and 40 years down the road made little to no difference on our lives or the lives of our descendants. In a post-hunter-gather society, what we do CAN EASILY make a difference 10,20, and 40 yrs down the road…or even centuries (e.g., even today, America is still living with the consequenses of plantation slavery – namely stubborn, though declining, race relations issues). Likewise, a 16 year old in 13,000 bc, or even 3,000 bc getting pregnant by a bad boy probably didn’t affect her future life much or that of her famiily. However, in 2010 ad, and even for a few hundred years before, her (and the cad’s) choices DO have an impact on how their children will turn out, and on their long-term marriage prospects.

    Our day-to-day physical environment has changed. By consequense, the very way we make a living has changed. Also by consequense, the very ways we become prepared to be able to raise children has changed. But WE haven’t Our technological development is by far outrunning our psychosexual evolution. It may or may not be true that humans are made for long-term monogamy, but divorce usually hurts children profoundly, if not severely; or at least their relations with their parents and (potentially) future relationship partners.

    We just have to accept the fact that we’re now in an era where the game of sustainable-over-the-generations survival and procreation are played by entirely different rules. BUT…the one thing we humans are good at is figuring things out. That means anticipating what may happen in the far future and disciplining ourselves to achieve the best result. Unfortunately, 9 times out of 10, we use the phrase “human nature” to mean “our base animal instincts”. Therefore, to say that we can’t help ourselves in this regard is to imply we have no more capacity for choosing our own destiny than wild animals do. This is insulting ourselves, to say the least.

  • filrabat

    Correction:

    I meant to say “where the game of sustainable-over-the-generations survival and procreation operate by entirely different rules”.

    My apologies for the error.

  • Kurt

    Jess, I don’t doubt that you and other women typically find a man to more attractive at age 30 than you would have found the exact same man when he was at age 20.

    Men, on the other hand, place more emphasis on physical beauty than women do. You might know a “few tricks in the sack” at age 40 than you would have at age 20 yourself. However, most men don’t really care that much if their sexual partner is relatively inexperienced and actually most men would prefer to marry a somewhat sexually inexperienced women instead of a highly experienced woman.

    The vast majority of men think that women in their mid-20s are far more physically desirable than women who are closer to 40. I defy you to find one reputable survey contrary to this.

    A single man who is 40 years old might settle down with a 40 year old woman if that is the best woman he thinks he can get and who will be loyal to him. However, I honestly think that most single 40 year old men would prefer to settle down with a 30 year old woman or even younger if they thought that they could get one who would stay loyal.

  • Jess

    To filbabat,
    Great post. Well put and I concur. We should take responsibility for our actions and be mindful of consequences. Regardless of urges.
    .
    Kurt,
    My point was that in your earlier post you reduced a persons worth down to beauty and age. As you get older you might find your view changes.
    .
    In isolation yes a 25 yo women is hotter than a 40 yo generally speaking. But that does not mean to say women desperately have to spend their youthful fun years worrying about chastity of landing an acceptable hubby. You sound like a victorian uncle.
    You may know lots of childless unhappy 39 years women who had lots of partners in their youth and are now haggard and unwanted. Well if thats your observation I can’t argue with that.
    All I can say is that an attractive modern women in her late 30’s wants a relationship then she tends to succeed. They may have to join an agency or put on a nice frock but they get there in the end.
    .
    I’m trying to think of any of my college friends or colleagues without kids or partners. It’s not easy.
    I had few gay friends who never adopted.
    I knew one stunning friend who had severe mental issues. She was still single last time I heard.
    Some of my lesser conventianlly attractive friends took a while to settle but they got there.
    All of the sexually active girls did ok in that regard later in life. So don’t get the need for panic.

  • Kurt

    Jess, I am not in my 20s – I am 35 and I do prefer slightly younger women – they are better looking and are often nicer and far less jaded than women my own age. You are married, so you are out of the game now. However, when you were dating were you ever out on a date with someone with a sense of entitlement, and a bad and negative attitude? The women whom I have been out on dates who were like that were in their mid-30s and they were just awful. Maybe I am meeting women in the wrong places, but it seems as though many women in their mid-30s are like this.

    I am not saying that I wouldn’t marry a woman who was 35, but she would have to be an exception person. I want to start a family and want a woman who is likely to be fertile.

    Is it unfair to view a woman in her late 20s as a better mate than a woman in her mid-30s, if all other things are equal? Maybe it is unfair; however, I bet that a large number of single women in their mid-30s unfairly excluded a large percentage of men who were the same age as them when they were in their mid-20s because they thought that those guys were boring or lacking in confidence.

  • Jess

    Well I agree with one thing. When it comes to biology life is seldom fair or kind.
    Otherwise there would no such thing as varicose veins, double chins, impotence, early menopause or bald patches.
    .
    I agree, all things being equal ( they never are) a 20yo is more attractive than a 40 yo.
    It’s almost beyond denial. But that was never in dispute.
    .
    If you find women your own age jaded that may be a reflection of your company or you picked incompatable 40 yo. I think many 35 yo men might find a 25yo a tad naive and immature. A bit irritating perhaps? Or perhaps you like the fact they admire the older man. They may appreciate your solvency perhaps?
    .
    I am glad the 40yo demonstrate e

  • Jess

    I am glad the 40 yo s demonstrate feelings of entitlement. They should do, just as men should do. It is good to have esteem and good ( though not ludicrous) expectations. Life and experience have perhaps brought them this confidence.
    .
    Clearly they are not your cup of tea and if you are dating a 25 yo and younger both happy good for both of you.
    .
    In the past if these women may have rejected you it was maybe because they weren’t attracted to you? It doesn’t mean they were just holding out for the 9’s of the world?
    Maybe at 35 you have style, means and confidence now?
    Who knows? But as you say life isn’t fair.
    You are doing ok now. As will most these women eventually.

  • terre

    To be quite frank, Jess, we can’t say for certain what the future holds for promiscuous women because American women have never in history been as promiscuous as they are today. Given the plummeting rate of marriage, I don’t foresee anything particularly pleasant.

  • Jess

    ‘anything particularly pleasant’ – hilarious.
    Oh there will be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth!
    .
    Women have been enjoying sexual freedoms for a while now.
    Birthrate seems ok. Divorce may be on the increase as both sexes prefer not to stagnate in bad marriages.
    Also a lot of couples don’t bother with marriage anyway.
    I’m not aware of any normal sexually active women who has failed to get an LTR when she was ready.
    So like I say, no need to panic girls.

  • Höllenhund

    “Birthrate seems ok.”

    Did you actually bother looking at the stats? They are way below the replacement level everywhere in the West.

    “I’m not aware of any normal sexually active women who has failed to get an LTR when she was ready.”

    How do you explain the louder and louder complaints of middle-age women that they cannot find an “eligible” man? The widespread complaints of women in general that men are “avoiding commitment”? Yes, woman are able to form LTRs – just not with the men they can get to commit.

    Just keep fiddling as Rome burns, Jess. Your solipsism is hilarious.

  • terre

    Jess, half of babies born in the U.S. are not white/Euro-American. The U.S.’ birth rate is being bolstered by its unusual status as an immigrant nation; whites outside of Utah and the South are suffering from sub-replacement fertility levels on par with Western Europe. In Germany, the problem is so bad that housing developments are being torn down by city planners (Berlin is infamous for being a squatter-friendly metropolis, since the ratio of people to houses is so disproportionate).

  • Kurt

    Jess, yes it is true that many 25 year-olds might be immature and some might appreciate a man’s “solvency.” However, there are also many older women who are also the same way. In fact, older women are often worse about the money thing because they are desperate to get married and want a man with money who would be a good provider.

    You might find this hard to believe, but there actually are some well-balanced attractive women in their late 20s who are genuinely attracted to men in their mid-30s and it really isn’t because of the men’s net worth. I actually find that if anything many women seem to undervalue a man’s earning capabilities.

  • Jess

    I saw a documentary last month that said there was global overcrowding.
    Due to longer life expectancy and industrialisation of the third world we are facing a energy and food shortage.
    I also know that london suffers a nurse and midwife shortage so i wasn’t aware of a birth deficit as such but I’m sure your data is reliable.
    .
    I have heard women sometimes moan about commitment. But at the end of the day the guy caves or she finds someone who does commit.
    .

  • Marc

    Good points Kurt. I am 31, and have zero attraction to women in their 30’s or 40’s. I recognize some of them are beautiful, but there is no “click” in my brain. It’s not my fault, it’s 3 million years of instinct.

    I want to give my future child the best chance at being healthy, and younger women produce healthier children, period.

    Also, I deserve to have the best years of the mother of my future child. I am planning ahead, nothing wrong with that. A 32 yo may look good today, and be somewhat fertile. But, what about in 10 years????? A 22 yo is going to look better and be fertile much longer.

    There’s nothing negative about what I just said, it’s all positive…..unless you’re a bitter 45 yo.

    I agree again with Kurt. I never met a normal man who wants a girl with lots of “tricks in the sack”. I would prefer a younger, less attractive girl with zero tricks, than an attractive women in her 30’s or 40’s with “experience”. Yuck.

  • Marc

    Well each to their own marc.
    Some girls in their 20s do indeed prefer guys in their 30s so you will make out fine I’m sure.
    .
    Happily not all men demand their partner be a decade younger than themselves.
    .
    Also many men do like the idea of an experienced girl and I know plenty of women who have married younger men. I don’t think they planned to, it was just who they fell in live with.
    .
    If however Marc, you find yourself rejected a lot by 25 yos you may wish to realign your criteria but I imagine you shouldn’t need to.

  • Jess

    Sorry, last post was from me not Marc
    Jess

  • Rye

    The post originally started off as a post on “too attractive” females not being approached, but has evolved into a “do men prefer and exprienced women or a young one”

    Jess,
    As a young woman who surfs countless blogs and is fascinated by this topic, I am going to have to say the points you are trying to assert are wrong. Dead wrong.

    Susanawalsh.
    Great site! Some good articles for young ladies to read. With regards to the recent posts, I would suggest reading blogs by Roissy, Roosh or listening to youtube clips of Tom Leykis.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmBB3pwuvqg

    If women truely wanted to *learn* the unabashed male perspective, they would have to *listen* to an unbaised male point of view. When you read posts by Marc, Kurt, or Dashiell, you know you are getting the real deal. The reason many men do not want to commit to older, “experienced” and “liberated” women is simply because of the baggage that comes along with them. Plus, Jess’ assertion that younger women are immature is pure gibberish. Men are simply wired to desire younger women.

    I am 19 years old, a swimwear model, and about to graduate college this summer. I have my priorities straight. However, hearing stories of women not being able to find a mate in their late 30s and 40s makes me sad. Young women today need the guidance of older women to give them good advice about getting a mate (start looking seriously for a husband at 23 years old, and marry at 25-30). Advice from clueless women like Jess are just hurting women’s perceptions of themselves.

    -Rye

  • @Pretty Lonely
    It sounds like you are really, really discouraged. I can understand why if you feel that you have spent eight years unproductively. I would say that the most important things for you going forward:
    1. Definitely take the initiative with men you find attractive.
    2. Don’t waste time on men who do not share your values. You don’t need four years to figure out a man doesn’t want to get married to you. Qualify men by determining whether they want the same things you do before getting very involved.
    3. Do not attempt to hide your beauty. Cutting your hair short is not the answer if your goal is to look less attractive. Embrace your own looks and make the most of them. Just understand that the men who are most likely to approach you are probably the least worthy.

  • Oh pish posh, Jess. Honestly, this is nonsensical. Of course fertility is tied to youth, and drops off well before 38. In fact, I recently read that there is a huge drop at age 27. I’m sure this can easily be researched by studying infertility stats, which have skyrocketed with the average age of marriage. We begin menstruating at 11 – do you really believe we’re very fertile 26 years later? And even if we’re capable of bearing a child at 40, suggesting that we’re just as desirable is preposterious. That’s not to say you can’t find love and great sex at 40 – but you’re going to be up against stiff competition from younger, more nubile, and yes, fertile women. The press is full of these spinster sob stories, as are the self-help bookshelves. Mike C just linked to this article, which is germane to this topic:

    http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/111695344.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUvDEhiaE3miUsZ

  • filrabat

    The big elephant in the room of this discussion I see here is this:

    The male libido cools down as they age. Maybe not for all me, but a staggeringly high percentage of them considering the typical male reluctance to admit to a decreased libido due to its supposedly “unmanliness”. Even at age 30, men’s libido’s – though still somewhat strong – aren’t nearly as tyrannically high as even five years earlier. And yes, this does vary by individual, yes, but this is an overall general tendency for the male gender as a whole. By 35 and especially by 40, a lot – and I mean a lot – of men start to think “Sex? Ehhh…ok..”

    I myself had this happen to me a bit earlier than usual (around 28, 29-ish..hard to pinpoint). Certainly by 30 I started to enter the “Ehh, ok” phase, and has only declined since. In fact, for several years, I wondered if I was turning asexual. I eventually decided I wasn’t turning into one, given that women can still attract my attention just from their physical features and certain personality traits alone. But that doesn’t hold my attention nearly as much as 15 years ago. Result: I find myself less and less motivated to meet women, no matter how young or nubile or curvy or accomplished. Women (at least as far as relationships are concerned) are simply not relevant to my happiness at my age (43) and haven’t been for at least 14 years.

    I only bring this up because women seeking husbands can always – according to popular myth – look to older single men. This is simply untrue more often than we think, for reasons described above. Life’s experience with drama, relationship politics, etc. only further reinforces the apathy. I’d imagine this is particularly true for men with lots of bad experiences with women in their younger days. Why would they want to date the very types of women who rejected them in their younger years (i.e. the hot ones, even solidly intelligent and accomplished attractive women). In fact, they’re probably glad their libido is – if not dead, at least on the way out. Oh, they still find such women attractive and may even have sexual fantasies about them – but that’s as far as it’s gonna go. Granted, younger men do make poor choices in women too but this does not change the fact that MANY men’s libidoes decline as early as their 30s. This also does much to reduce the supply of available older men the women of marriagable age want.

    As for the men in their early 30s still in the dating market, their priorities also changed (at least the committment-minded ones). Substance,personal content, and overall integrity and trustworthiness will count for more – and they will sacrifice A LOT in the way of beauty, style, charm, personal charm, accomplishments, and even intelligence to get that substance, integrity, etc. They’ve had their experiences with “hot” women, and found that so many were not good wife material, or even considerate of other’s concerns. The aforementioned natural decline of the male sex drive (at least in many men) only makes it easier to succeed at what I just described.

    So it is that the posts discussed immediately above have a lot more urgency than is commonly thought — unless we want to completely do away with not just marriage but with committment and parenthood altogether (I’m not holding my breath for that one).

  • Jess

    Good point filibrat,
    I’m afraid nature didn’t really design us so well when it came to this issue.
    .
    Women reach their sexual peak at 40 but mens is at 18.
    So this is a bit of a bummer for both genders.
    It may explain the cougar thing but most women cannot stand 18 yo guys despite the fact they may be the most sexually compatible in terms of sex drive.
    For 1000s of years life expectancy was 22. Nature didn’t figure us living till 75.
    Plus life is not sentimental, nature only cares about us living long enough to breed not the complications of LTRs.
    I don’t think this issue is thought about in advance by people though, they tend to follow their heart instead but it’s a highly pertinent point. The 35 year old guy may have trouble keeping up with his 25 yo wife 10 years down the line.
    Hope you are listening Marc?

  • Jess

    Dear Susan,
    Did you find my 2 missed posts? One appeared for a day and then vanished.
    .
    Re: fertility.
    I know you appreciate science so I used several sources that gave the same info.
    Nhs, baby centre web site, several USA fertility info sites.
    They all said the same thing.
    Fertility does steadily drop off in a straight line from 18 to 50. The line is gentle though.
    .
    So yes there is a link with age- we agree on that don’t we?
    Fertiltity graphs are a measure of pregnancy verses copulation attempts.
    So you have to do it more times to concieve if you are 30 compared to being 20 (probably)
    However infertility( a total inability to conceive) only suddenly increases at 38 ( though the USA sites said 35-40)
    I didn’t see anything about infertility jumping up at 27. Are you sure thats right?
    Happy to be corrected of course. I agree it’s important girls have this critical info.
    .
    Desirability-
    I have just read back my posts and I did make it clear that 20 yo women were hotter than 40 yo women. So I think we already agree there.
    That does not mean to say I would go along with marc’s attitude though which was a bit shallow IMO.

  • filrabat

    @Jess

    “I don’t think this issue is thought about in advance by people though, they tend to follow their heart instead but it’s a highly pertinent point.”

    That is precisely the problem – more specifically a combination of hormone intoxication and a frankly obsolete brain architecture. If I had the Power of God (so to speak), then – given that we need much more education to make a living than even 50 years ago, plus that the very physical environment we live in is not fit for a Stone Age mentality — then, with that “Power of God”, I’d reset human biology to where both genders don’t hit puberty until around age 25, perhaps even 30. We’d have more life experience by this time and (likely) know what the whole point of romantic relationships are in the first place: primarily reproductive (from a strict biological perspective).

    BUT..the silver lining in all this is that we humans are pretty damned good at figuring things out. We have greater capacity for forethought than animals do. We’re the only animals that figured out (to a great extent, at least) nature’s game plan for us AND the ability to question the relevance of that game plan, including it’s timing.

    Therefore, at this point, the problem isn’t so much our brain’s ability, or even our sex drive. It’s our culture. We do not have a culture that encourages a conscious and deliberate postponement of things romantic and sexual before thinking of the consequenses. That may work fine in the animal kingdom and perhaps even primitive societies, but not for an Industrial Age one and certainly not for a Computer Age one. We have to face the knowledge that not only our biology, but much of human nature itself is frankly obsolete. Ironically, that knowledge can help us navigate the relationship minefield – IF we consciously and deliberately decide to overrule our biological and emotional natures. In fact, that’s the only hope there is.

  • Marc

    Women are revered in society for motherly qualities. This means youth and good looks. (Healthy, fertile, and more likely to pass our genes succesfully).

    Women like handsome men also. But, men are more revered in society for their ability to bring meat back to the cave. (Income to feed the babies and……pass genes). It goes on and on. It’s no big secret.

    Boobs? Why do men love boobs? They are not “for us”. They are for feeding babies, thats it. We like big, healthy looking boobs because it appears they have sufficient milk to provide for our babies….thats it!!!

    Whether you like it or not, we live subconsciously. We have 3million years guiding our moves. You can intelligently argue all of it, but you’re not going to buck mother nature and her 300+ BILLION years of experience.

    Back on topic about pretty girls having it harder. Many do. Think of this. The bell curve, most people are 4’s,5’s and 6’s in the looks department. Most people get together with people in their same league. That being said, a gorgeous woman actually has MUCH LESS opportunity in the dating community. She can/will only date a guy who is also a 9 or 10. There are not many 9’s or 10’s available. The 4’s 5’s and 6’s have billions of choices for mates, whereas a 10 has very little choices. Could be very frustrating, especially since most women in their teens and twenties desire a man slightly older. Most high value 30 year old men have been taken. This leaves them lowering their standards, or sticking to their guns and being constantly frustrated. “Why can’t I find a good guy” really means “I am pretty, and deserve a hot, rich, romantic 30 year old, but can’t land one”. The competition for that guy is fierce, believe me. There are MANY more hot young girls, than high value 30 yo dudes.

    Susan and Rye, good comments. Rye, I am happy to share genuine thougths about how us guys think. Unbiased, sometimes hard to swallow, truth.

  • Jess

    Yes, I think it’s important that people reject ancient notions and look at things altruistically.
    It’s so true that youthfull mistakes can be so disastrous.
    .
    However it’s so difficult to change the urges.
    A horny young guy will always lust after girls.
    And you cannot force a girl to fancy someone she doesn’t.
    In crude terms, if they dont make you wet or hard, it ain’t happening.
    Of course this is ancient biology and should be dismissed as you say.
    But how does one achieve this with ethical means?

  • filrabat

    BTW, I can also say “you can’t force a guy to lust after girls he doesn’t find even marginally attractive. And you force young girls to be turned off by confidence, money, social suaveness, swagger, and “alpha” traits” – foir both genders, at the expense of the boring but important traits that make up a truly sustainable relationship.

    For the human species as a whole, it’s so deeply rooted in our DNA and/or neural architecture that we can’t come even close to eliminating this disconnect between our biology and our technology-oriented physical environment. We can minimize or maximize these tendencies in people with heterosexual urges of normal strength for that age though – chiefly through changing the culture and (for those who care to call it this) mass propaganda. We have a chance with young people whose sex drives are considerably weaker than the norm, yes. BUT, as I said, we can’t come even close to eliminating this problem for the youth / young adult population as a whole. All we can do is hope that we simply evolve out of this eventually (but that’ll take at least 100 generations, if it can be accomplished at all).

  • filrabat

    BTW, I don’t think I contradicted myself in the last two posts. My point was that even though we can’t eliminate our “choosers” (i.e. the bundle of ideas in our brains that cause us to involuntarily be initially and superficially attracted to someone) – we CAN question how reliable our “choosers” are. But only rarely do we ever do so, at least not until we’re in our late 20s at the youngest. Therefore, we need to change the culture so that it encourages (even demands) skepticism about our “choosers”, even as we can’t eliminate our urges.

  • terre

    Jess, you can’t just name your sources when you make a claim that “[…] fertility does steadily drop off in a straight line from 18 to 50. The line is gentle though.” You have to link to them, or at least name the studies. 50-year-old women are nigh infertile.

  • Höllenhund

    “Women reach their sexual peak at 40 but mens is at 18.”

    ROFL/LMAO! Do I even need to point out the rather obvious evidence to the contrary?

  • Jess

    Terre,
    Try the ‘baby centre’, nhs websites, or type in ‘infertility and age’ into your search engine.
    The baby centre has a graph showing infertility and fertility plotted against age on the same graph.
    .
    Hollenhund,
    Am I to assume you disagree with the sexual peak thing? It’s a well known truism in the uk.
    I think it came originally from kinseys research.
    I looked at the web and some people refute this though.
    Tbh I have always had a fairly good libido since 18 but most of my friends say they are much more sexually needy since hitting 30.

  • Jess

    Filibrat,
    Yes I agree, if only we could change the ‘choosing’ mechanisms.
    .
    But in the uk we have had massive safe sex campaigns but we are still having 8 yo kids having terminations, STDS are on the rise, most pop music is highly sexual.
    .
    Nothing less than a dictatorship could avert this in my view.
    .
    I know I’m not providing any helpful suggestions- I wish I knew how to solve this issue.
    I think alcohol and drugs are the real enemies because it removes inhibitions or even consciousness. Thing is prohibition didn’t work to well when you guys tried it?

  • terre

    Jess, those “massive safe sex” campaigns are part of the problem. If you assume teenagers are supposed to be having sex, you normalize that expectation and the astute ones will start doing it. Their parents aren’t teaching them about soul partnership or chastity, they’re just letting them take lessons from wherever (crappy pop music that shoves sex to make a buck) and when they get to school and realize they’re supposed to be having sex already it causes panic and untold anxiety. I know because I’m young enough that I was pushed through one of the UK’s constant “sex ed” classes.

  • @Rye
    Thanks for the comment – I’m trying to be that wise old woman 🙂
    .
    @Marc
    I agree with your comment 100%. It’s all about biology, and promulgating the species. Once we accept that, we can be more successful in mating.

  • Jess

    Terre,
    This is the age old dilemma- how to stop humans doing something they enjoy but does long term harm.
    I think the ‘ just say no’ approach has been tried many times but it just doesn’t seem to work. USA tried it with drugs. So did the uk.
    USA tried it with alcohol. Never works.
    .
    So I think the thinking is that ‘if we can’t stop them then we at least should educate them’.
    I agree this is only partially successful but may be the best of 2 poor options.
    Driving something underground just means misinformation and ignorance which could literally cost lives.
    It’s true that if 15 yos are given a condom demonstration it normalizes teenage sex.
    But trust me you do need to teach them this otherwise the teenage pregnancy figures would go up even more. A lot more.
    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t eh?
    Ps don’t get me started on the media sexualisation of children!!! Another thread entirely i think…

  • karen

    @Marc
    What you say is so true. I guess I always believed that most college educated people wouldn’t start to settle down till their late 20’s at the earliest. Imagine my surprise when over the last couple of years I’ve been meeting all of these great guys who either married while in college or soon after college graduation. Where I am at, it is very difficult to meet a guy in his late 20’s or early 30’s who is college educated, single, and has a great personality. Most of the guys who meet these characteristics have already been snapped up. All the single guys are usually players or guys that even your average plain Jane didn’t want. I still remember being 23 and thinking that there was no rush to find a mate. Now, a few years later, I have having a hard time just meeting single men. And I know other females who are in my same predicament. These females are also ready to marry a good guy and have babies but they just can’t meet any. And we don’t want rich, good looking alpha males but decent guys that we can see ourselves growing old with.

  • Rachael

    This article is almost 100% on point. Except in high school , I had trouble making and keeping friends. The very same females who would say I was “gorgeous” were the very same ones lying about me behind my back and so on.
    After so much unwarranted drama with so many females, I finally decided to just give up on female friendships altogether. My friends are family members.
    I still get the petty and insane behavior from random women at work, school and so on. I ignore it all. I don’t think women realize how stupid and obviously insecure they make themselves look when they behave that way. *SMH*
    Also, I rarely date. Men who approach me only do so after lots of eye contact, smiles and soft conversation. The worst is when a guy who wants to approach loses his nerve. They don’t know it but I spend MOST of my nights alone.

    • @Rachael
      I’m so sorry to hear of your experiences. I know that women can be fierce and cruel when it comes to competing for men. It is terrible to frighten men away too. I’ve heard beautiful girls wonder if they’re ugly after all because the minute they make eye contact with a guy he nervously looks away.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Rachael
    I totally feel you. I was never the pretty girl but I always made friends with the pretty girl for the reasons you mentioned. The other girls were pretty much just waiting for her to turn her back to chew her on for no good reason and I found that so unfair. I also tried to keep the rumors at the minimum and always talk well of them to people that asked me, I did had a lot of pretty girl friends that had few options usually they had to pick for a smaller pool of men because few of them were brave enough to approach and a lot of them assumed that the girl in question had something wrong (gold diggers, shallow, stupid, slutty….surely the rumors)
    I don’t know how old are you but my advice is to try and model even if not for a big company. I seem that those venues are usually filled with men that will approach you and talk to you, some of them will be jerks, some of them will be married but at least a third of them will actually be dateable and maybe you will have more options. Another options is acting again more chances to meet pretty people that won’t be that intimidated about your looks, again two thirds would be waste but if you are smart you might find good company.
    Good luck in life and love.

  • Hannah

    Hi Susan,
    I have a situation I was hoping you could shed some light on for me. I hate having to say this so blatantly, but I’m very pretty (been called a hard 10 several times)….but am very inexperienced and shy when it comes to guys (I’m in college). Recently a guy I like (and who has told people he likes me) made a move on me but apparently some subtle thing I said right after made him think I rejected him (as I later learned from friends). Ever since then he’s been avoiding me and when I try to “amend” things he’s not receptive. A few of my friends think I really hurt his feelings without meaning to! ..but then when I try to fix it, it doesn’t work…is it possible that he’s really damaged from this/confused about the “mixed signals” I’m unintentionally sending out (due to shyness), or has he simply lost interest?
    Thanks; I really appreciate it!

  • Hannah

    and just to clarify, by “trying to fix it” I mean I dropping more hints that I’m interested. However, my friends say that I need to be super aggressive b/c the ball is now “in my court”…but I’m not wired that way!! Not sure how to put myself out there without making a fool of myself…or if it’s even worth it b/c he might be over it

    • @Hannah
      That’s a tough one. It sounds like both of you are guarded and shy. Hard to know whether he’d give it a chance, but the only way you’ll find out is to express interest very explicitly. You could ask him if he wants to hang out sometime. You don’t need to be super aggressive – just make a friendly overture that involves the two of you hanging out alone. That way there’s no doubt that you are specifically seeking his company. If he says no, FIDO (f*ck it drive on). If he really is “damaged” by what’s happened, it sounds like he’s not ready for the risk taking that any relationship requires.

  • Not pretty, really

    Well, I have been told I’m pretty, but I have to be told because I don’t think I am at all. Not from the way men treat me. I understand what she was talking about with men saying vulgar things. When you are pretty, don’t you get treated like you’re pretty? I had a female boss go on and on about how pretty she thought I was and how she couldn’t believe I wasn’t married. It makes me want to cry. Another person once told me I wasn’t using my looks right and how much better their life would be if they had my green eyes and curly hair. I went home and cried. They don’t understand that men just want to screw me and I think I’m really ugly because I can’t find someone who really likes me for me and wants to be with me.

    I give up. I feel like singing Morrissey and Smiths songs all the time.

    I am human and I need to be loved just like everybody else does…

    • @Not pretty, really
      I’m sorry you feel unloved, or appreciated just for your looks. As you can see from this thread, you are not alone. In the contemporary sexual marketplace, the prettiest women lose out, because many men are interested in having as much sexual variety as possible. I encourage you to look wider, and harder, to identify men who are relationship oriented. Then you’ll have to provide direct encouragement to let any of them know they’ve got a shot. There are plenty of men who would like you for you, as well as your looks, but they won’t be the guys approaching you to screw.

      You totally get bonus points for appreciating Morrissey, by the way. He’s a genius.

  • Bella

    Pretty girls do have it hard. It’s always difficult for me to tell whether a guy really likes me for me, or he just wants to sleep with me. Because when men wants something, they can act so charming and sweet and I’m way too naive and trusting so sometimes I get tricked into thinking they are decent men when they are not. And I really should know the difference by now because I’m 21, but sadly, seems like I never learned. (If there’s a prize for rotten judgment, I’ve already won it!) I just had my heart broken by a man who happened to fall into the latter category. And it sucks because I think he might have taken away my ability to trust.

    Although I am approachable, I am not easy! I’m usually careful about getting into relationships because I know I am the kind of person who will get attached if I sleep with someone, so I have never had just casual sex. And I’ve always had men pursuing me and I constantly get asked out even when I was in a long term relationship (and they know it!). Now that I am single, I got more men asking me out than I can handle. I’m being constantly pursued by men I know well, men I just met, men who are friends with my friends, men who are friends with my ex, men at the bar, men at college, men at work… and my really great guy friends 🙁

    I know people will hate me for saying this, but there are times in my life when I wish I wasn’t born so privileged. It brings more trouble than benefits/advantages. Sure, it’s nice to be let into bars/pub/clubs free and without waiting in line. Sure it’s nice to always have at least one man helping me out with things. Sure it’s nice and fun to go on casual dates, and have all the attention I want, and men to talk to, any time and any where I want. And it’s really nice to never be rejected and to always get the men I want. But it’s gotten to the point where I’m actually afraid to make eye contact with men for too long because they might think I’m interested and make advances! Because just last Friday, I was called hot and being hit on all because I chatted with him after the law final, and I was in sweatpants with little makeup.

    But it’s not real.

    And there’s another thing. I don’t know how to play the game. I’m one of those pretty girls who is really nice, genuine and sweet, and who doesn’t play games. And although I am confident most of the time, some times it scares me just how alone I might be when one day I am no longer young and pretty. Because I can never tell if men are interested in me because I am pretty, or because I am pretty… amazing as a person.

  • OffTheCuff

    Bella. It’s a fool’s errand to want to wait for guys to “see the real you” before they approach you. But if you insist, I’m sure you can find some anonymous chat room where you can only be judged on your character, and men will fall in love with your personality. Of course, you’ll find them all revolting.

    The point is, men and women both can’t expect to turn off our attraction triggers. You *do* have it easier – 100% of the people you meet will be attracted to you, so you don’t ever have to even think about it. All you have to concern yourself with is if 1) you like him, and, 2) if he is willing to get to know the real you. Players won’t want to take the time to do this. Like car thieves, they will want to move on to easier targets.

    That latter part is key. You can’t expect men to take the risk and initiative to approach you but simultaneously not be attracted to you, any more than a guy can expect hot girls to approach him so he can avoid the possibility of rejection. It just won’t work. If you get all offended if people hit on you, imagine what it’s like to never be approached. Ever.

    If hot people really had it harder, they’d get plastic surgery to make themselves uglier. Or eat lots of donuts.

  • “I give up. I feel like singing Morrissey and Smiths songs all the time.”
    .
    I also love the Smiths, but I caution everybody to only listen to them when you’re in a good mood and a good way in life. Listening to them when you’re down is hazardous to your health!

    • I also love the Smiths, but I caution everybody to only listen to them when you’re in a good mood and a good way in life. Listening to them when you’re down is hazardous to your health!

      I don’t know. You’re unlikely to be applying for jobs as a back scrubber. Or have a girlfriend in a coma. No one has it as bad as Morrissey. We can all feel successful by comparison.

  • Bella,
    .
    “And there’s another thing. I don’t know how to play the game. I’m one of those pretty girls who is really nice, genuine and sweet, and who doesn’t play games. And although I am confident most of the time, some times it scares me just how alone I might be when one day I am no longer young and pretty. Because I can never tell if men are interested in me because I am pretty, or because I am pretty… amazing as a person.”
    .
    I think I can help you. What is your phone number?

  • “No one has it as bad as Morrissey. We can all feel successful by comparison.”
    .
    Maybe. he also has the distinction of being the most out musician who was never officially out. He makes Freddie Mercury look/sound like Fred MacMurray.
    .
    I will say Morrissey had quite the stage presence in his Smiths days. God that was a good band.

    • I will say Morrissey had quite the stage presence in his Smiths days. God that was a good band.

      Agreed, they cast a really long shadow. Not just musically – yesterday I overheard Joe the Hipster at Whole Foods tell his bagger that he is going to cut off his long hair and rock the Morrissey look.

  • Bella

    If you get all offended if people hit on you, imagine what it’s like to never be approached. Ever.

    OffTheCuff:
    I should have phrased what I said better. I don’t get offended when people hit on me. It’s just when I see those nice guys who I’m just not interested in, either because of differences in values, personalities or just because I’m not physically attracted to them, and I see them trying to hit on me constantly or make advances, I get a little nervous because I hate rejecting people, so I try to avoid their eyes and drop subtle hints that I’m not interested in hopes that they’d back off before getting hurt! Because I know all too well what it’s like to be lead on and then left dangling there wondering what went wrong.

    And I do eat donuts. I eat one almost every day. It’s so bad hahaha, but I don’t really put on weight 😛 so I don’t work out either.

    Badger:
    Haha you’re funny.

  • OffTheCuff

    So that’s it? Pretty girls have it harder because you have to avert eye contact, otherwise you have to reject men explicitly? This sounds like Bill Gates complaining he gets lost in his mansion.

  • Marc

    To Bella. “Tough it out dear”, your “problems” will be over soon enough! You will find yourself becoming more invisible to men every day after the age of 17.

    I do empathize with hot girls for one reason. They actually do have LESS dating choices than average girls. A girl who is a 10 won’t date a 5 or 6. She will only date an 8, 9, or 10 who is also wealthy, smart, witty, etc. There aren’t many of us around. So her choices are few, not many.

  • Bella

    If I don’t avert eye contact, I don’t know what else I can do. I hate rejecting people, but I have to do it. I just don’t want to lead people on because I know what it’s like to waste time.

    Marc: that’s not true. I’ve dated 5-7s.

  • Marc

    Bella. Most guys don’t understand the “bitch shield”. I am a supporter of the bitch shield. I know if a gorgeous girl entertains every guy just to be nice, she will never get rid of him!
    ……..
    One of my favorite phenomenons is this…..the girls who are not all that attractive, but put up the bitch shield!! I chuckle inside when I see this. People emulate other people that they want to be like. So an average girl sees a pretty girl being bitchy and stuck up, so she thinks this is how she should act! But the average girl doesn’t realize that the gorgeous girl does it out of necesity, not because she really wants to.
    ………
    I smile at nearly every woman I come into contact with, old, young, fat, midgets etc. It makes everyone feel good. Sometimes women take this as flirting. I am skilled enough to slip out of the situation without being bitchy. Many women don’t have the social skills to get out gracefully, so they just act retarted by being non-attentive, bitchy etc. I get it.
    ……..
    Bella. If you’ve dated 5’s and 6’s, why are you not still with them? Because the fact that you said that leads us to believe that you think you are in a higher league than them. It may be true. You don’t want a guy you percieve to be lower in value than you. Water finds its own level. People shoot out of their league till they realize their own league. For women, many times they don’t realize their league until the crows feet set in, ….don’t let that be you!

  • Sam

    Hello, I’m a guy and I have recently find this website. The viewpoints are really interesting.

    A little background about me: Back in high school, I wasn’t a social person at all and so when I went to college, I nearly dropped out. But I kept shouldering on and struggled to finish school, because I believe that if I can just become financially capable to support a girl, a pretty girl will eventually come along and see that I’m better than those pick-up artist who focus so much on their time on just banging a girl.

    Guess what, during my last semester, a pretty girl did in fact come along. I couldn’t believe my luck when she agreed to lunch with me. I admit, a great part of my attraction comes from the fact that she’s very attractive, but I also feel a bond with her because we both were ostracized during high school. She was sending me all these signals, but I was so shy and didn’t believe it was possible. So I didn’t tell her but continued to shower her with gifts and attention, and hoping that she would get the hint.

    And three months later, she found out that I actually have a crush on her but didn’t tell her, and she wouldn’t even consider going out with me anymore. I really feel I’m worthless. I said some very mean things to her that I regretted, but the emotional angst knowing that I could have get her to date me was even worse. For a while I was just paralyzed–I couldn’t focus on anything at all. I couldn’t decide whether to remain friends with her or not–on one hand, I really feel her pain because it’s something I’ve experienced myself. On the other hand, getting rejected really hurts.

    I’m trying really hard to do the right thing but it’s so hard. Can anyone give me some advice? Thanks!

    • @Sam
      Seriously, you need to learn about Game. She disrespected you b/c you put her on a pedestal and were afraid to make moves. This is a very common problem for guys, and being shy really compounds it. Lots of pretty girls don’t want a PUA, but they do like the confidence PUAs are able to display. I write about Game here, so keep reading, and be sure to check out the blogs on my blogroll under the heading Being Male. In particular, you might like Badger Hut and Becoming Alpha. I hope you’ll comment again soon!

  • Sam

    Susan,

    Thank you. Thank you so much. I’ll definitely keep myself updated on this.

    Sam

  • Anonymous

    I’ve had similar experience to other commenters. My entire life(as soon as my brief awkward stage ended around 12 or 13) I’ve been constantly told how pretty I was by complete strangers, stared at by everyone, received inappropriate comments from old men, etc. Yet at 20 I’ve never had a boyfriend, I didn’t have a date to my prom, my “love life” has been characterized by a long string of drunken hook-ups, many of whom bragged about it and spread lies about me after. I’ve had a handful of male friends who expressed feelings for me whom I was not interested in and I felt horrible rejecting them. This has caused me to feel uncomfortable talking to boys in general. Boys I find attractive I assume to be assholes or players and have difficulty speaking to without blushing or being purposefully bitchy and although I usually feel comfortable talking to less attractive guys as soon as they seem overly friendly I tend to go cold to avoid latter flat out rejection. I have had difficulty making friends at college, I ended up an athlete at a school that was an academic safety. Girls tend to gravitate towards girls that are similarly attractive and here pretty girls like to go out far too much for someone like me. My relationships with my grade-level teammates are shallow and feel very forced.
    I have not found my looks to be much of an advantage in life, I find people expect me to be something I’m not and rarely take me seriously as a student or an athlete. My high school classmates believed I was smart but mainly because many of them had known me for a long time and while I was still awkward. However out of all my high school teammates I’m the only one who went on to continue the sport at a DI level for more than a year and all my high school classmates are shocked when they find this out. At

  • Anonymous

    college I do not dress up for class, I wear very little make-up, and I am usually fairly lazy about using my acne meds so my skin is not in great shape. But the fact is I still receive unwanted attention in sweats, with no makeup and zits. And being pretty and a college athlete are two huge strikes against anyone taking me seriously as a student.
    The only legitimate ‘perks’ I can really attribute to my looks are being hired to a retail job off of nothing but a picture and my SSN and the barista at Starbucks charging me for a grande and giving me a venti.
    I feel that my looks have largely led to the creation of bizarre insecurities, feeling socially isolated and awkward, and patterns of self-sabotage. And even though I receive so much unwanted attention no boy I’ve ever had a crush on has paid me any mind and a few have even hooked up with close friends of mine. When things like this happen it causes me to question if I am actually pretty and I begin to wonder if everyone has just been lying to me my whole life. I don’t expect anyone to ever respect my academic or athletic achievement and I doubt that any boy will ever see me as more than a piece of ass or a trophy which are the last two things I want to be. I legitimately fear that I will never fall in love or get married even though I’m only 20. I am way too young to be this jaded and the feelings keep increasing.

  • caitlin

    Honestly I’m one of the people who believe my life would be better if I were more attractive. But it’s more so that I will feel better about myself if i were prettier. I shouldn’t be but I am depressed about my appearance because I’m 21 and have never had a boyfriend or even had the confidence to be friends with any of my many crushes. I feel pathetic and ugly, its the only reason I can think of why guys don’t like me. Also, I’ve always been compared to a girl who is completely opposite of me, tall, light skin, delicate, and she gets attention, what am I supposed to think of myself? I’ll never be what people call pretty, but really I just want a few guys to think I’m pretty then I’ll be happy. I think I’m ugly but I have the same problem of gross texts and drunken guys as those girls who are pretty have but I tend to think that guys think I’m just easy or something. I feel they think someone as unattractive as me would have sex without knowing them. It makes me sick to my stomach because I know they want to have sex with me because they think it’s easy, not because they think I’m pretty.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Actually both extremes are hard, but I think we should just assume that most men will think you are easy till you show them you are not. That is usually and impression built out of many sluts (ugly ones and hot ones) and men have a hard time separating one woman from the herd, specially if the herd is HUGE.

    I will say both need to make peace with their appearances, work to improve the areas that are lacking, in the case og ugglys get in shape, do some make up classes, and training and learn what kind of colors and clothes make them look better and on the case of pretty ones, learn to be able to find out exactly what kind of man they want.
    I will advice to both to be the ones initiating even if it hurts, because men approaching you are not giving what you want to, so learn to be the hunters, stop being the prey.
    Chances are that if you approach in a respectful non slutty matter to the type of guys you want in your life, chances are at least one of them will fall and in the end all we need is ONE.
    And as a personal advice, please if the guy is great and adores you. MARRY HIM. Really don’t listen to nonsense of too young, too poor… people can study, work and built a life after they got married if they did a good choice and you don’t need to date many man to learn that, look at all the sluts that are divorced their sleeping around didn’t made them any wiser, and once you are out of the dating market concentrating on keeping one man happy, is a lot easier than going back to it, if you read the blogs of the guys that are actively dating that post here or on the manosphere, you know the dating market is full of sharks as of now and is only going to get worse, no point in staying it it if you can possible avoid it, YMMV.

  • Gabe Asher

    The above paragraph was the longest run-on sentence I read in my life!

  • udolipixie

    @Susan
    This post hits home the thought of being some guy’s bragging rights he can show around as an accomplishment based only on my outer appearance sickens me.

    Quite funny how it’s not even the douches who do this but nice guys as well. The belief that nice guys who are too nervous to approach is a myth 5 of my friends debunked when they approached them. Those nice guys didn’t see or treat them any better than the douches the only difference was that the nice guys didn’t think they had a chance with a hot girl.

    @Marc
    “In time, I will capitulate, but only when I “am getting old”. I will date these women briefly, but always am looking for something better.”

    So if you’re not giving your best years right now to your future wife & plan on marrying younger why do you lecture women to do what you don’t?

    I’m well aware of older men preferring younger women it’s historical it’s just that I never really liked do as I say not as I do. I can respect do as I say not as I did because the speaker has learned from & stop his/her actions but you aren’t & haven’t in this case since you’re not spending your best years right now with your future wife.

    Though to be far what men & women value are different so if you’re spending your best years building financial security I can somewhat respect your lecturing.

    @Kurt
    “A single man who is 40 years old might settle down with a 40 year old woman if that is the best woman he thinks he can get and who will be loyal to him. However, I honestly think that most single 40 year old men would prefer to settle down with a 30 year old woman or even younger if they thought that they could get one who would stay loyal.”

    So why agree with Marc that women should spend their youth & beauty with a guy if when she hits whatever expiration date he personally has he’d prefer a younger woman & would take the chance if given?

    “However, when you were dating were you ever out on a date with someone with a sense of entitlement, and a bad and negative attitude?”

    Sounds like a lot of unattractive/average young and old men I know & some my friends even dated.

    Many of the young guys thought since they were nice attractive women (only attractive women) should give them a chance and judge a guy based on character not looks.

    Some thought they were 7s/8s and expected 9-10s when really they were 6s (though that may be from nice rejections by my colleagues).

    Plenty of the older guys were out of shape and expecting not only girls 15 – 20 years younger but the most attractive ones & got quite upset when the girls (2 were closed friends) used them for what little money they had.

    My friends badly rationalized their unacceptable behavior with “well this is a literal way of exchanging youth for resources.”

  • Sam F

    @udolipixie

    So you basically object when a rich older guy is trying to “buy” his way into your pants, right? Besides financial security, you would like your potential mate to have other qualities that you would really find attractive from a gut level, for instance: right kind of thinking, ambition, confidence, nice body, can handle himself in any situation, etc…

    So what do you think about a guy who’s currently a a loser now, but say: “I’m a loser but if I just resign myself and settle for what I can get, that’s resigning myself to fate. I want to work harder and see what I can *really* get from life!” and resolves to become the kind of man that is worthy of a beautiful lady?

  • udolipixie

    @Sam F
    I object when any guy tries to buy his way into my pants.

    However unlike a lot of girls I don’t want an older guy.

    I don’t seek financial security from a mate but rather emotional security. I have enough savings, modeling money, pageant money, and freelance money to support myself & any kids I adopt/in vitro.

    “So what do you think about a guy who’s currently a a loser now, but say: “I’m a loser but if I just resign myself and settle for what I can get, that’s resigning myself to fate. I want to work harder and see what I can *really* get from life!” and resolves to become the kind of man that is worthy of a beautiful lady?”
    That he’s unlike a lot of my male friends who feel entitled to their hot girl& want certain women to give them a chance & unlike my female friends who feel entitled to their prince despite not having the traits that make a girl a princess (being a high maintenance b*tch is not one).

    I’m all for personal development and realizing your flaws however if this is done just to attain beauty you might as well turn to pua/gaming.

    Everyone wants a partner they are attracted to but when appreciating attractiveness (liking it) becomes admiring (valuing it) it there tends to be problems.

    That settle for what I can get & worthy of a beautiful lady disappoints me though.

    What is settling to you is it being with a girl as equally attractive as you settling as is the case of my male friends?

    By being worthy do you only look to fix character issues & not appearance ones? Girls are less visual not blind & willing to compromise on looks when you have at least 70% of what they want.

  • Craven Moorehead

    @udolipixie

    “I don’t seek financial security from a mate but rather emotional security. I have enough savings, modeling money, pageant money, and freelance money to support myself & any kids I adopt/in vitro.”
    ……..
    Dear, really?? Did you know the Playmate of the year only receives 100k?? You have enough “savings” for everyone? From pageants???? What would a pageant pay, for example, in Toledo Ohio? First place $400? Or is that on the high side?
    …..
    Modeling? The lowest paid occupation on the planet, right next to musicians and actors. So, you’re set for life from county pageants and Sears catalog? Good luck with that.

  • Sam F

    @udolipixie

    Indeed, when someone goes for a pretty girl just because they want some kind of emotional validation, it poisons the entire relationship in the beginning. Been there, done that… ended up hurting a girl that I really admire, and I’ll probably regret it for the rest of my life.

    With that said, though, I do remember: once I worked in a convenience store and met a guy who pretty much survived on minimum wage and depended on borrowing from his mates to keep ends met. Yet, because he knows all the ways to have fun, never lose his cool around girls, know all the people in all the bars, etc, he can get all the pretty girls to sleep with him. I kid you not–I talked to some of the girls myself.

    I mean, put yourself in my shoes. Here I am saving up money, cutting off expenses (there are weeks I survived with less than $15 a week on food), and studying the hardest I can despite everything that had happened to me–and you tell me that this *loser* can get girls (7 or 8’s) while I have to settle for someone I’m not attracted to, just because I’m not “fun”, easily lose my nerve around girls and haven’t ever gone clubbing. Sorry, but I don’t think I can take that. I’d rather stay single for the rest of my life than to accept this. What is so wrong with sacrificing now so that you can be the kind of man to support your wife financially and emotionally?

  • udolipixie

    @Craven Moorehead
    “So, you’re set for life from county pageants and Sears catalog? Good luck with that.”

    I guess you overlooked freelance money & savings which come from two jobs- cna & bartending.

    Neither are my long term goal as I am currently getting my Bachelor’s in Nursing.

    Something I did not mention was my stash of 20 grand from odd jobs from my teenage years.

    Yeah I think I have more than enough to afford 2 daughters.

    Thanks for your somewhat snarky attempt at a dose of reality but reality is why I chose my adopt/in vitro path.

    @Sam F
    “What is so wrong with sacrificing now so that you can be the kind of man to support your wife financially and emotionally?”

    Nothing except try to reread your first sentence if what you value in your wife is looks and see if you have really learned from your mistake.

    Will you also be the kind of man your wife will be physically attracted to by looks or do you want her have to settle for someone I’m not attracted to for her to get the character she wants when you don’t want to do the same?

    “(there are weeks I survived with less than $15 a week on food)”
    Me too. When I save I really go into hardcore.

    “just because I’m not “fun”, easily lose my nerve around girls and haven’t ever gone clubbing”
    Sorry but if you value looks you have to bring something to the table that the pretty girls value.

    What do you mean by fun? Are you funny? A good conversationalist? Have any life experiences from traveling, volunteer work, hobbies?

    The reason you’re nervous (am I correct in assuming it’s only pretty girls?) is because you’re focusing on her looks because you value them. Try ignoring the looks. Ignore the looks not the girl somehow when I tell guys to ignore a girl’s look &treat her like any other girl they end up treating her like sh*t. It makes me wonder if guys are only nice to pretty girls instead of just nicer like studies claim. Treating her like sh*t will only result in obtaining a girl with low self esteem who seeks your validation.

    You don’t need to go clubbing unless that’s what the pretty girls you want do. If so you can’t fault them for wanting a partner who does what they do. Either go clubbing since that’s what the girls you want do or try another type of pretty girl. Try going for a pretty girl in places you frequent.

  • Sam, it’s not fair, life seldom is.

    There are women who haven’t ridden the carousel. There are women who expect a man to fulfil his traditional role while they fulfil theirs. Some of them are quite attractive. You won’t find them in clubs though.

    Nervousness around women is natural, at least for modern men. The only real way to overcome it is to spend lots of time with women. Becoming good at cold approaches means accepting a lot of failed approaches. It’s one of those “need experience to get a job, need a job to get experience” Catch-22s.

  • Oh, and never treat a woman badly. Maintain your own frame, and don’t allow her to push you around, but don’t treat her badly.

  • Sam F

    Thanks, guys, for the advices.

    What brought me to this site is the fact that I recently screwed up a chance with this really pretty girl I really like. She’s really unique–she really stands up for things she believe in, which I find really refreshing (even though there are times I disagree with her).

    Let me tell you a bit about myself: I grew up in an emotionally abusive home and my parents moved from Asia to America when I was 13, and the cultural shock eventually caused me to have a long (5+ years) depression. I have never really been able to connect with people well.

    And so, actually when I met this girl–I was wondering about the question myself: “Is this what love is supposed to be like? Am I crushing on her because she’s soooo pretty, or because I really really like her as a person?” Because of this, I hesitated–and we only remained friends (I didn’t know about the “friend zone” either). Imagine the shock when I found out later from her friends that, had I asked her out, she would have said yes! I just went into shock for the next month or so.

    Oh well, the past is the past, but from this experience I learned that:
    1) If you’re a guy and you have emotional problems, you can’t depend on anyone else. You have to fix it yourselves. If you’re a girl, sometimes you can count on finding a really great guy who will support you all the way–I’ve actually known a girl like that, and I’m really really envious. But I’m a guy. So, gotta toughen up.

    2) A guy really have to have experience with courting girls no matter what. If you’re not the kind of guy that are interested in things which can get you to meet girls (nerds, for instance, or math whizes), then you need to find other interests. Because desperation is sooooo not cool.

    3) Jason is right. Because of my inexperience with girls, I lost my frame around this girl and eventually she lost interest. No matter how pretty a girl may be, you definitely can’t lose your frame. If there’s anything I’ve learned from my ex co-worker, having your life defined by women would only make you miserable. Goals have to be beyond women.

    4) Matters of the heart are so complicated. I actually was naive enough to believe that girls and guys can remain friends. But these days, everytime I look at her profile picture on facebook and see how much she’s suffering from eating disorders–it really twists me up. So I had to defreidn her on facebook.

    Regret really is a bitch. I’ll try to meet more people from now on, although I really doubt I’ll find another girl that I like that much from this point on. Studying game really makes one more cynical… I feel like I’m selling my soul to the devil sometimes.

  • Tolkien described his character Faramir, arguably the most noble character in The Lord of the Rings, in comparison to his brother.

    “Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother’s.”

    Seeing the hearts of men (and women) truly gives you two options. You can pity them, or scorn them. For those pursuing nobility of character there is only the one.

  • Sam F

    Ok, my crush liked LOTR but I have always found that series boring… but if you keep this on, I’ll have to convert. 😀

  • Platero

    @Caitlin I often feel the same way as you do when you say:

    I’ll never be what people call pretty, but really I just want a few guys to think I’m pretty then I’ll be happy. I think I’m ugly but I have the same problem of gross texts and drunken guys as those girls who are pretty have but I tend to think that guys think I’m just easy or something. I feel they think someone as unattractive as me would have sex without knowing them. It makes me sick to my stomach because I know they want to have sex with me because they think it’s easy, not because they think I’m pretty.

    I’m actually a little older than you (I’m 24; will be 25 early this fall). I’ve never had a boyfriend. Even though some people tell me that I’m pretty and even beautiful (often either complete strangers or family friends/people at church), I have a very hard time believing that either (a) they don’t have low standards for beauty or (b) they’re just being nice. Only creepy people ever approach me. I’m a size 8 (I’m between an 8/10 in pants; size 8 in everything else) and am medium height, which isn’t considered desirable. I do wear makeup and I dress a bit nicer than most girls that I know (as in I put a lot of effort into how I look; I don’t have a ton of money or anything, but I try to do the best with what I have). I hate jeans and I love wearing skirts, casual dresses, nicer dresses, and anything really feminine. I like having my hair done and I like to wear fragrances too. I feel unattractive, though, for the same reason that you mention: people only approach me because they think that I’m easy (which I’m not, nor do I dress that way, so I don’t really understand why a person would think that I’m easy because I do NOTHING to give that impression). People don’t hit on me because they really think that I’m beautiful or special; they do it because they just want any person that they can find to f*** them. Clean and decent people never give me the time of day. To be honest, I’m really not looking to be in a relationship or even to date; I never want to marry or have kids. However, I would like to be considered beautiful; it’s something that I’ve always wanted for myself and have never obtained. I’d also like to understand what’s wrong with me just so that I could at least have that mystery figured out.

    **

    Also, since age has been brought up here so often: I really don’t think that age really determines beauty. I know people my age who look awful and people older who look amazing. It all depends on what you do with what you have and how you take care of yourself. It also depends on whether beauty is something that matters to you or if you choose to let yourself go. You can be beautiful at any age. While one’s beauty might change as one ages, it simply evolves into something else; aging in and of itself doesn’t guarantee that you’ll be ugly or unappealing. Catherine Deneuve looks amazing at her age, and as far as I know, she hasn’t had work done. Cary Grant also aged pretty well. People who age gracefully are still appealing.

  • Emma

    @platero. I think i get how you feel, i have never had a legit boyfriend and often times i don’t feel pretty enough because i’m not getting enough attention from the guys i want attention from. It seems to me that deep down you have a core belief that you aren’t pretty enough and your so attached to it that you ignore evidence that contradicts it and pay attention to evidence that you ‘perceive’ makes it true. (i am not sure if this rings true for you but i just thought i’d throw it out there just in case it could give you some insight to yourself) According to your post you are definitely getting some evidence that you are pretty and even beautiful. But it’s not coming from the crowd that you want it to come from so that means it doesn’t count. Well it does actually! About getting hit on by those guys, I bet that you do not come off as an easy girl to guys because it sounds like you have a lot of bitterness against the guys who have hit on you and i bet that it shows through in your expression, attitude and your body language. That is probably why you are not getting the attention from the guys you want attention from, they are probably preferring to hit on girls who are giving them friendly vibes. The creepers that come after you only come after you because 1) they find you attractive and 2) they are creepy and desperate. Now this is not to say that you aren’t a cool person, i bet you are. You just might not be presenting yourself as your best through body language because of your bitterness and self-preoccupation with not being good enough. 90% of communication is body language. There are so many good looking, cool and great guys and girls out there who are not representing themselves very well so people don’t end up seeing these great qualities. For example, if there are two identical twins who are both equally gorgeous who do you think will be preferred the girl with the open, kind and enthusiastic disposition or the girl who is closed off and too afraid to show just how great she is? To wrap this up, it’s a confidence thing. So maybe focus on how you can let your great qualities (i’m sure you have a lot!) show and how you can change your body language into an open one which will welcome and invite attention from the right guys. I really hope this helps! 🙂 and i hope my words weren’t too harsh or anything. And i also think it might be beneficial not to assume that all the guys that hit on you just want to get laid, you don’t know their intentions. On the other hand, its good to be a little cautious but try and give them a chance (even if the chance is just to have a conversation with you)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Hey pretty ones! Had you checked this dating site?
    http://www.beautifulpeople.com/
    Your beauty will probably not be an issue there. Hope you like it!

  • kate

    I’m really glad this article is posted. Every time that I’m sitting home on a Saturday night alone wondering why all of my friends are in relationships and yet I’m not, I turn to this and feel slightly better. It’s rough because when someone claims that they’re ugly, then the world cannot hear enough of it. But when someone admits to being attractive, then they’re immediately labelled as pompous, obnoxious and arrogant. People would rather you shut up and sit down then listen to you complain. But if you ask me, like everything in this world, there is a dark side to every situation. And attractiveness is no exception. And mind you, I’m the first to admit that I’m no Tyra Banks, but as an actress it is part of the job description to be “good looking”. Often times this is a perk, just as is intelligence, creativity, athleticism or any other genetic predisposition. I have gotten things for free, been complimented by random strangers and things like that. HOWEVER. I have also been followed, I have been sexually harassed by men on the street and have had a harder time making friends (male and female alike). With being an attractive female there comes this expectation that that is all you do. That if you look better than those around you, then you must be a diva or something. So yeah, the girl next to you in the jeans and t-shirt is probably going to get the actual conversation from the guys. Meanwhile you’ll just get the stares and side glances from across the room. It’s just frustrating. Just like every situation in life, being good looking does have its problems. And I’m not just whining. Additionally, while everyone avoids you because you’re attractive, there is also an insane pressure from the media and society (like we haven’t heard this before) to stay that way! Basically, you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

    • @kate
      I sympathize, and know several women in the same boat. The ones who are happiest, least lonely are women who invest heavily in platonic friendships, making themselves extremely approachable. They’re non-competitive, and extremely loyal friends. Women remain wary and jealous, but some warm up to them, and some actually enjoy being friends with someone that gets so much attention. Guy friends want them, of course, but also understand that they’re in a different league, and over time they accept it.

      It’s hard if you’re not an extrovert, but it’s important to be open and friendly with strangers, and to take the initiative if you are attracted to someone. Any guy is going to need encouragement to approach. That’s why getting to know someone via work or an activity, class, friends of friends is good – you can establish rapport and the guy isn’t required to approach you as a stranger and risk a nuclear rejection.

  • Catherine

    Hi. I am pretty sure I was never a 10 but I was/am cursed with the huge breasts, and this is my experience. I’ve olny ended up with the sexually aggressive persistant guys. Ive never had anyone nice. Ive had envious female friends tell me they want a breast job to get the attention that I do, and I actually do everything I can to talk them out of it. Having a nice body gets you laid but it doesn’t get you love.

  • Jared

    I thoroughly enjoy your articles and their insights. After reading this article and the comments, I’ve noticed a few recurring themes.

    The most relevant is the disappointment of attractive women over men who like them for their looks, and only their looks. However, that is simply of consequence of humans being superficial. It is definitely not a privilege reserved for the attractive. The beautiful girl who was disappointed by the “frat star” mentioned that “I wish I could meet someone who wanted to get to know me, someone who would get me.” However, “curvy” women are frequently overlooked in favour of slimmer and more attractive women. Similarly, short men are commonly dismissed as simply “friends” and are rarely given the chance of create attraction with women enamored by tall men.

    While attractive people are approached by others due to their looks, unattractive people are rejected by others for their looks. Therefore, I fail to see why the impacts of superficial decisions are only felt by the attractive. At least attractive people get a chance (to get laid and potentially get to know each other). Unattractive people like me don’t have that chance. How can we talk to them if we can’t even get their number?

    In the comments, many people have touched on the topic that men tend to go after younger women. Further, that kind of behaviour is deemed repugnant by women who feel that they’re overlooked simply for their age. Yet, as a 20 year-old male attending college, throughout my life, I’ve seen women date older men. As a high school student, I’ve seen freshmen dating seniors. When I got to college, I saw the freshmen go after seniors or even graduate students. Where were the complainers when they were young? Can they honestly say they’ve never dated an older men?

  • Eaton Beiber

    “Men learn to love a woman they are attracted to…..women learn to find the one they love attractive”

    ===James Spader in “Sex, Lies, and Videotapes”

  • Perpetuallly Single

    Dear Susan,
    I’ve been hit on by very attractive movie stars, rock stars, TV stars, male models, strangers have come up to me and told me that I’m beautiful, but I’m always single. My more average looking friends are married or in relationships. I have a lot to offer, I’m intelligent (two degrees), speak several languages fluently, I’m well-rounded, well traveled, kind (I’ve rescued strangers and have done a lot of volunteer work), athletic and fit, I think guys are afraid of me, it makes me really sad. I’ve only had 2 long-term boyfriends (I’m in my 40s now), how long do I have to wait to meet someone serious? I remember going out with a few guys who actually told me that I intimidated them and made them nervous because of my looks. Now that I’m in my 40s I feel that I’m less desirable (on paper), I still look really young. My last boyfriend broke up with me because of my age, no other reason he claimed, I was such a good girlfriend to him-you have no idea. Two months after our breakup he accidentally got an average looking girl pregnant who barely spoke English and married her after they had a baby. I think the quote at the top of your web site describes the story of my life:

    If you want to be happy for the rest of your life

    Never make a pretty woman your wife

    So from my personal point of view

    Get an ugly girl to marry you

    Jimmy Soul, 1970

  • Gabe Asher

    Perpetually single. You know what the problem is. You’re doing a hat dance, yet stepping all over the hat. The problem is, no matter how beautiful you are, or think you are, you’re in your 40’s.
    …….
    Let me give you an example of how much more important youth is than “beauty”. Some friends and I posed this question to each other. “Would you rather date/marry a 17 year old who is a 5, or a 32 year old who is a 10?” All five of us agreed on the 17 year old 5.
    ……..
    You are spot on when you say you are less desireable these days. You only have to lower your standards to find love. The 35yo, thick haired, hedge fund manager is no longer within reach for you. Be realistic. We all have our chance at youth, and you obviously did. You even claim to have been the desire of rock stars etc. I am sure this was when you were much younger.
    ……..
    As men desire younger women, you will probably hook up with a guy in his late fifties, maybe a few grown children. The good part is he’s probably near retirement with a steady pension. Or, you could be doomed to a life of “cougardom”.

  • Gabe Asher

    @Perpetually single. Another point. Women can look younger to OTHER WOMEN. As men, we are genetically programmed to know how fertil a woman is (her age), regardless of fat transfers, brow lifts, chin implants, microdermabrasion etc.
    ……
    We, as men, will look at a woman who is 35, and think, wow, she looks good for 35. We will never think she LOOKS 25. Mother nature has kept our “age radar” way more advanced than any surgeons knife.
    ……
    Our main goal subconsciously, is to reproduce, thats it. That’s why we don’t care about your travels, your degrees, etc. We care about whether or not you can make healthy babies. Thats that.
    ….
    Sorry for the brutalnesss of the last two posts, but I feel this forum is too help one another and be honest. We help no one by sugar coating responses. It’s good to have honest opinions from the opposite sex.

  • Perpetually Single

    Dear Gabe,
    Thanks for your response. I’m curious as to how old you are, from your survey among your friends I’m thinking late teens, maybe early 20s? I still get hit on by famous guys (they’re pretty confident/cocky), I don’t have wrinkles (naturally, genetics from my dad), and I do get hit on and checked out, mostly by guys in their early 20s (they’re the ones who are out and about at the lounges, etc.)-but I don’t want to date young guys-I want someone within my age range (5 yrs.+/-). 6 years ago, I was accepting dates with men in their early 20s, but like I said, they were really intimidated on our dates, it felt uncomfortable, so I stopped-see my dilemma. When I was 25 I looked 13, now I look 29, 30 at the most. My most recent ex-boyfriend was 11 years my junior and thought we were the same age. I know men are subconsciously programmed to reproduce, but not all men or women want children. And women can and are still having healthy babies well into their mid-late 40s. I somewhat disagree with you about men preferring a really young plain Jane, there have been several studies that show men prefer to date an older more beautiful woman and “risk” not having children over the homely looking younger one. Here’s a recent one conducted in England:

    “He and a colleague took a photo of a 36-year-old woman who was very attractive in the eyes of a group of men. They showed the picture to three other groups in their early 20s along with pictures of eight women aged 20-45 who’d been rated less attractive.

    The researchers told the group the beautiful woman was either 36, 41 or 45 years old. When asked who they’d prefer as a long-term partner, all three groups of men chose her, regardless of how old they thought she was.

    Men Not Considering Offspring

    Dr. Fieldman concludes the study shows beauty counts. He says men are not so concerned with the number of offspring they can have. They are more prone to choose a beautiful woman, regardless of her age, if it means increasing the chances their offspring will have a better chance in life later on.

    Many people think that men would always go for the 20-year-olds, but they don’t, he said.

    “If you think of the kind of women that men on a building site may whistle at, they tend to whistle at beautiful women, he told the BBC. “They don’t whistle at a perfectly healthy and fecund 20-year-old.”

    “The younger, plainer women will give them more children, but the fact that they’re going for the “aging beauty” is indicative that beauty is more important at some level.”

    And I’m not a cougar, I don’t go around hitting on younger men. I appreciate your honest response though. But I do think the most attractive women have a harder time meeting eligible (quality) men because the men are intimidated, they look, but are afraid to approach, many don’t want other men trying to steal their girlfriends because they are pretty, so the prettier women may end up single.

  • Gabe Asher

    We are all in our 30’s. Our survey among us assumed we would date/marry the woman. I agree, many men (maybe even some in our group) would choose the beautiful 32 year old over the average 17 if it meant one or two nights of sex only.
    …..
    Many men choose the older, pretty woman as this is instant sexual gratification. When you give men some time to consider who will make a better long term choice, the choice becomes clearer. I call it the “Rob Lowe” syndrome. He married in his 20’s to a woman of his age. Now they are both 47 and look ridiculous together as he has aged like wine. Her, not so much.
    ….
    Men can be intimidated by a pretty woman only because he knows by experience that the chances of rejection are higher if he approaches her. But I don’t think in the long run, she is approached LESS. If you take two thirty year old women, one a 9, and one is a 5, for example. I am sure in her life, the 9 has been approached more.
    …..
    Another point. Men that don’t want babies still find the women who can have healthy babies attractive. Not wanting babies is a conscious thought. BUT, he is still subconsciously attracted to women who can have the best chances at a baby/healthy baby. Why do men like women with good skin and say, big boobs? Good/glowing wrinkle free skin is a sign of youth(fertil). Big boobs appear to have milk for our offspring.

    Youtube “science of sex appeal”. Cool stuff, I agree with most of it, you probably will too!!

    As for men “cat calling” at women. This is typically directed at women who are dressed sexy, regardless of age.

  • Jennifer

    I’d say beauty is a mixed bag, Susan. A great book on this, or a similar subject, is called “The Secret Life of it Girls”. Very good.

    Another great and soulful (and funny!) post.

  • Rachel

    Dear Susan,
    I would like to thank you for this article because this is not something that is easy to discuss. I’ve only ever talked to my family about is pluses and minuses of being attractive since I know it sounds ungrateful to most people. Of course there are benefits, but in this post, I’m sharing some of challenges. I completely identify with much of what you wrote and especially the video. I do walk around every day with men stopping to look, acting completely tongue-tied or leering at me. When I go out, I have to decide how much attention I want from men. I get less in gym sweats and a lot more in a nice dress, but my clothing only makes a slight difference in the attention. I’m incredibly sensitive to other people’s emotions so I know when men are looking and can almost feel it on me. I’m 24 and am just coming to terms with the fact that I will be noticed for a large portion of my life. It’s kind of ridiculous, but one of the few things I like about winter is wearing my coat with a huge hood. I can put that on and suddenly no one pays any attention to me. I also identify with the video and having to deal with jealous women (even wives). I have developed a strategy for meeting new people: first I talk to the women and give them a sense of my personality (friendly, open and humble), only then will I get to know the men. This is particularly important with girlfriends or wives, where I make sure to maintain an equal amount of attention to each group. I’ve gotten awful stares and rude behavior from other women when I get to know the men first.
    It’s also true that the men who approach me usually have huge egos and generally care nothing about my personality. After a couple of disasters, I figured out how to rebuff these men, but it takes a lot of energy. Ultimately the men I want to date will not walk up and ask for my number, I have to offer a lot of encouragement (but it works!).
    Again, I’m in no way suggesting that I would like to change my appearance, but I just wanted to share my experiences.
    Thank you.

    • @Rachel
      Thanks for sharing your experiences. I know it’s a real issue and our culture rewards beauty, but only at a very superficial level. I wonder what kind of encouragement you offer to guys that seems effective. How do you let guys know that you are interested? Have you ever been turned down by someone? Do you find that guys don’t feel secure enough that they can hold onto you? I ask because these are the questions I get from other readers.

      Thanks again, and stop by the more current posts!

  • Jess

    Rachel,
    I can emphasise. I dress casually as I’m most comfy like that.
    If I put a dress on to go out, the difference is so stark and often intimidating.
    .
    I’m in my 40s, no starlet like bosom whatsoever. It seems to be legs. It does something to guys. Wear a jumper and jeans, totally and completely invisible.
    .
    When I was younger, especially at work, I got some grief from threatened women. It’s so sad that society drives us to that. Once i remember a colleague, whilst a bit drunk, say she thought I was stuck up and only hung around with the pretty girls. This wasn’t at school by the way, we were adults! I pointed out to her that whenever I had tried to engage her she had been pretty hostile. She then said fair enough and that I was alright after all!
    .
    in terms of indicating your attraction to a guy I say go for it. Drop the heaviest hints you like. Life is too short.
    .
    As for guys that don’t get the message. Get up and remove yourself from the situation or if that’s not possible simply say, look I’m sure you are nice but I’m not attracted to you and I’d appreciate some privacy.
    .
    Never give mixed messages or accept drinks or indulge in flirty talk. It never goes well when trying to be kind or considerate in a rejection situation.
    .
    You will find that unwanted male attention will lower at 30, it takes the pressure off. One of the benefits of age actually.

  • ” I do walk around every day with men stopping to look, acting completely tongue-tied or leering at me.”

    This is something I’ve come to believe, that attractive women gets lots of _attention_, but don’t get that many honest to God approaches – guys having real high-game conversations with them without drooling. It’s almost a niche market to be honest.

    I have a half-French friend who is something of a player, and he says it blows hot women’s minds when he walks up to them and actually talks to them without giving off any signal he’s noticed their beauty.

    • This is something I’ve come to believe, that attractive women gets lots of _attention_, but don’t get that many honest to God approaches

      Yes, and a lot of those women hate that feeling of being watched everywhere they go. They go for a run, and men slow down and stare as they drive by. Guys with girlfriends stare. Waiters get tongue-tied. I think they learn to tune it out – they have virtual blinders on and remain blissfully unaware (as much as they can) of being stared at.

  • Rachel

    Thank you Susan and Jess! Jess, I appreciate your insight – I’ve been hoping to get some suggestions and hints! I’m a visual person so I like wearing colors and clothes that I think look nice, but I tend to feel safer when I’m wearing workout clothing. There are a couple things I do for encouragement:

    – I make an effort to get to know the guy. I will purposely sit by him and ask about his life, interests, etc. I actually do more listening than talking. If I know nothing about his job, I’ll ask him to explain it in detail. On the other hand, if I have a similar experience, I will relate that to him. With a shy man, I’m prepared for awkward silences and usually fill those in with more questions or my experiences. Once the conversation starts, a guy will usually be able to hold up his end. Being friendly and open goes a long way. If it’s been 20 minutes and it still feels like I’m carrying the entire conversation, I will try someone else.

    – I ask the guy out for coffee, a walk or some other relaxed activity. I choose something that I would do with any friend. If that goes well, I’ll expect the guy to make the next move.

    – If he has asked me on the first date, then I will offer an idea for the next meeting.

    I’ve been rejected several times: a couple times the guys just stopped calling, another time the guy told me that I wasn’t moving quickly enough (re: he wanted to sleep with me before I was ready). It’s disappointing and takes a few days before I eventually accept that it’s probably the best thing anyway. I usually don’t try to connect with men who I feel aren’t interested in me.

    In my relationships, I rate trust as one of the highest priorities. I trust them not to go after other women and hopefully they trust me not to act on attention from other men. I have told boyfriends that I’m only interested in them (I had one at a time). That said, I did make a mistake that I just had to live with: my boyfriend at the time and I both danced tango, but we were beginners. I swear the context made sense, but I told him that I preferred to dance with more experienced dancers. Not the smartest comment and I sensed he was less secure at Tango after that, but I always went home with him.

  • I always go back and forth on this issue. I have to It’s hard for me to summon a whole lot of sympathy for hot chicks, because until they’re over 30, they’ll never know what a typical man’s life is like, to be all but invisible to the opposite sex. They really do live a charmed life compared to their homelier counterparts, and if the price is to have some people look at you as an “object,” that doesn’t sound like that bad of a trade.

    On a related note, a key piece of seduction is deflecting a woman’s beauty – this is why classic PUA lines are among the lines of “it sounds like there is more to you than your looks” or “you are not just attractive, you are also interesting.” Letting her know that you know it’s there, but you are noticing other things as well. Feeding her snowflake engine: people notice her body all the time, but you frame yourself as the only guy who understands what’s underneath.

  • Esau

    Badger:

    “he walks up to them and actually talks to them without giving off any signal he’s noticed their beauty.”

    As though the very act of walking up, from out of the blue and talking to a beautiful woman is not in itself a signal that he’s noticed her beauty? Who’s actually being fooled by his pretending not to notice? Him? her? the guy watching from across the street? Really, this completely baffles me.

    I see that you’ve gone further in the next comment:

    …deflecting a woman’s beauty – this is why classic PUA lines are among the lines of “it sounds like there is more to you than your looks” or “you are not just attractive, you are also interesting.”

    Seriously! who could possibly fall for this??! Perhaps the answer is to be found in Dilbert, who said “Don’t make a better product, just find stupider customers.”

  • Jugo Juice

    “Feeding her snowflake engine: people notice her body all the time, but you frame yourself as the only guy who understands what’s underneath.”

    @ Badger

    How can I be credible in stating that when it’s the first time we’ve met? No, I’m not a psychoanalyst. Can women actually fall for that?

  • Jugo Juice

    Another point. Men that don’t want babies still find the women who can have healthy babies attractive. Not wanting babies is a conscious thought. BUT, he is still subconsciously attracted to women who can have the best chances at a baby/healthy baby. Why do men like women with good skin and say, big boobs? Good/glowing wrinkle free skin is a sign of youth(fertil). Big boobs appear to have milk for our offspring.

    @ Rachel,

    I don’t get your point. Men who don’t have babies still want to have sex. :S

  • Rachel

    @ Jugo Juice. I did not write that comment, but I’m not sure why you do not understand Gabe Asher’s point. Of course having children doesn’t change a man’s sex drive. In my view, the point is that from an evolutionary standpoint, a male would choose a female best able to create strong offspring. Therefore, while our culture does not overtly address that issue, it is still an underlying factor. This goes both ways because women are most attracted to healthy, strong men.

  • Gabe Asher

    @Rachel “I’m 24 and am just coming to terms with the fact that I will be noticed for a large portion of my life” Please Rachel, do not get hung up on that thought, or you will become bitter as the wrinkles set in, the neck hangs a little etc. At 24, you are already past the most attention you will get from men. It will be less everyday from here going forward. Take comfort in knowing that.
    …….
    Any woman can look in her closet and decide how much attention she wants based on what she wears. Women who dress to kill want attention, albeit attention from select men. Unfortunately, they can’t be selective in that regard. It’s all or none.
    …….
    They ONLY thing that drives people to look their best is to get attention from the opposite sex. Don’t believe me? Be honest with yourself when you answer the following question. If you were exiled to the North Pole where you were guaranteed to never see another person, or a mirror, for the rest of your life; would you put on makeup, and concern yourself with your wardrobe???

    “If the person is attractive, it’s flirting. If they are ugly, it’s sexual harrasment”

  • Jess

    Gabe,
    Oh contare, some women dress up when that are meeting female friends or even when staying in by themselves.
    .
    You are right much of the time but sometimes women really do dress for themselves.
    I’m not one of them…just sayin..
    .
    Flirtation is a mutual exchange of suggestive or romantic gestures or lines.
    Harrasment is the continued escalation of clearly unwanted sexual advances.

  • Abbot

    Flirtation is a mutual exchange of suggestive or romantic gestures or lines.
    .
    That, due to the infinite wisdom of flirtatious women, is never targeted at potential harassers aka creeps, unattractive men, etc.

  • You HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!?! Pretty people have it hard? Oh and pretty people are upset for being stereotyped as being dumb? So what? They have relationships ALL the time! They are handed things left and right. They HAVE the power to manipulate people and command respect. Men who are under 5’8″, women who are fat, or just plain ugly people stand nearly NO chance to find someone and being happy because this culture and society CONTINUALLY bombards us with images of ‘PERFECTION’ and the message if you don’t live up to that perfection you’re worthless and had better do something to fix it. This is a god damn JOKE. The people who created that documentary and this blog post are doing society a SERIOUS DISSERVICE! Who cares about pretty people’s prob