Do Pretty Girls Have it Harder?

I hear you, VJ, and I expected this response. I know this does happen, beautiful women expecting to be worshipped and adored. But honestly? I personally know at least a dozen young women who are the whole package: Lovely to look at, smart, curious, funny, interesting, generous. And they're all unattached. It strikes me as bizarre. Of course, they're not alone – many young women who would like to be in a relationship are unable to find one, at least a quality one. But it's been my observation that the real knockouts often get only the kind of attention from men that no woman wants (unless she's walking the streets).

This is generational. You and I did not live through this while young. Women under, say 30, are having a different experience. And that age will keep rising, because, graduating college students are bringing hookup culture with them into post-grad life. Hooking up well into the 20s, and even 30s is pushing back dating, relationships, marriage, for better or worse (one guess one where I weigh in on that one).

I have to say I enjoyed this article and especially agree with the above comments. I think dating is hard for everyone whether you are short, tall, chubby, skinny, blonde or brunette. After watching that short film you posted Susan – I definitely agree with the last girl who was tearing up. I see myself as descent looking gal – I know Im not unfortunate looking but I don't consider myself the most beautiful woman in the world either.
I'm a medical student & last year I had a professor who would single me out in front of the class. He would call me America's Next Top Model rather than my name. In class we were learning how to do patient exams and I was always being called to demonstrate how to exam the male genitalia and always being asked about dieases related to the penis. This was on a daily basis and I began to hate going to class – I kept thinking I'm hear to learn so just ignore all the sexual innuendos. I complained every day to my mom that semester. I tried not to draw attention to myself during class like downplaying my dress or sitting further towards the back…really nothing worked. I remember getting dirty looks from other girls in class and the guys really couldn't care much (of course!). That semester was rough and I did not feel pretty really. Its kindof ashame that people thinks its ok to make inappropriate comments to any girl, maybe they think some girls are use it so its ok. Whatever the reason – I agree with what was said in the article about most players are usually up for the challenge with hot girls – so there is no quality whateversoever & most women want the quality despite their own looks. I guess the saying applys- never judge a book by its cover – even if its pretty!

Skanti, nice to meet you, thanks so much for leaving a comment about your own experience. OMG, that professor is such an asshole! That kind of sexual harrassment is inexcusable. You're smart, a serious student, and you're being singled out in the most demeaning way. How could you possibly feel pretty in that setting – it's exactly like the woman in the film.

You also make another interesting point. Women get envious of each other, and that doesn't help. I do hear of women being excluded by other women in the workplace and in social settings, and I believe it's often because they are very attractive. They don't want the competition. All you can do is make friendships where you can, hope another woman will give you a shot even though you are pretty. It's ridiculous! Dissing a pretty woman is not going to make you any prettier, it's really not going to get you any more guys.

You are so right about not judging people by their looks, one way or the other. We all have feelings and emotional needs.

Haha, Hamby, I knew you'd weigh in, and I had a pretty good idea what you'd say! (I'm just about ready to start finishing your sentences for you.) I'm really glad you said it. What I really like about your perspective is that you set the conundrum up as a problem to be solved. Which is exactly what it is. You point out the need for a specific strategy, and I love it! And the thing is, most beautiful women don't want to be hit on in bars, because those are the guys who will probably send a disgusting text at closing time. But to be approached in the science section of a bookstore? How romantic! (It's also in keeping with my recent post “How to Find a Great Guy”, which says pursue your interests first, and get out as much as you can doing so.)

I also appreciate getting the male point of view. For example, I never thought of this:

“Men, being slightly smarter than portrayed on sit-coms, realize that keeping beautiful women (especially in the hook-up culture) is very, very difficult, and many of them automatically put beautiful women in the hookup-only category.”

Specifically, I hadn't thought about hookup culture making women more difficult to hang onto from a guy's point of view, but it makes total sense.

So thanks.

bblove, I would LOVE to hear your views on this topic. When I found this pic on your blog I knew I had to use it. Your appearance vs. your sharing in the universal struggles was just too mind-blowing to ignore. BTW, today's post touches on this theme as well. Maybe you're too perfect!

Hey Dashiell, thanks for commenting. We always appreciate getting the Y chromosome view around here. You make some excellent points, I do have replies:

1. By saying bide your time, I really wasn't thinking years. What I'm saying is that you are going to draw lots of douchebags, and if you are in a hurry to find someone, you are likely to engage in wishful thinking and waste time on an unworthy guy. It can be very, very difficult to tell a good guy from a jerk early on. Jerks have a way of being really attentive and sweet until they score the touchdown (doesn't apply to PUA types, obvs.) So what I mean here is take a deep breath, dial down the anxiety, and let things proceed naturally. But your point is well taken. Women wait too long all the time, and then fertility becomes a major problem. We were designed to procreate by the age of 13, so delaying a full 25 years is very risky.

2. First of all, using the word objectify doesn't signal my political leanings. And as I stated above, women are not very good at getting the feeling a guy is trying to play them. If they were, it wouldn't happen so much. How does one invite a guy to play them? How does one prevent it, or “not invite it?”

3. I'm not suggesting pushing a guy into the friend zone. What I have seen work very well is a situation where the girl is super hot, the guy not as hot. He doesn't make a move, b/c he knows he is not in her league. But he is happy to be part of her circle, her crowd. As she gets to know him, if she likes him (because women select men on a variety of qualities, not just looks) she can signal her interest. The second he thinks he has a reasonable shot he takes it. He can't believe his good fortune. She must work to convince him she really likes him. The end.

4. Re being approachable, see above. You're wrong about beautiful women not being approachable. Guys think that women will only go for a less hot guy if he has money or status. Not true. I've seen girls get really into guys without either, because they looked for and found other qualities in him. Like humor, self-confidence, kindness, intelligence, creativity, loyalty in relationships. Guys don't want to believe this. They think the Beta has no shot. Wrong. Game won't get you anything real. Being real will get you something real. By the way, because casual sex is so readily available, most guys with options are more reluctant to commit. This scarcity of relationship opportunities means that women (even beautiful women) will have to cast their nets wider. Hence the increasingly popular term: Boyfriends are ugly.

Your real advice is right on. I've written about the best way to meet new people (see How to Find a Great Guy) – it's to pursue your own interests, get out of the house as much as possible, maximizing your number of interactions per day. And take that cell phone off your ear. We're on the same page there.

Dashiell, that is awesome! There is so much good stuff here, I'm gonna tell you right now that I'm going to rip it off and use it. Love, love, love the male point of view. Your advice on how not to get played is priceless. My only objection, and it is a big one, is that these techniques are so artificial, so contrived. As a marketing person, I'm willing to acknowledge the effectiveness of the message, but honestly, can't we ever just let our hair down and relate to each other? I'm a big proponent of strategy, but I'm exhausted just reading your recommendations, valid though they seem.

Re #3, it's true that there are some men that have it made sexually within 30 seconds. But the nature of woman is such that her attraction can grow as she becomes acquainted with a man and sizes him up. Because we are not utterly beholden to the good looks piece, we often get the hots for a man as we get to know him better and discover other qualities in him. I am 100% sure about this. I have seen this happen many, many times. The message to men is: you may know you want to bang someone right away. She may not be sure. You need to invest time to relate to her on an emotional level – that is where her sexual desire will come from.

Finally, I'm not suggesting that “Boyfriends are ugly” become the new slogan of young women everywhere. It's just something I've heard from young women, and guess what? They're willing to consider it! Honestly, women may be biologically programmed to want Alpha, but we are very torn. Betas can be such good boyfriends, and that's what we want more than anything else.

You may be interested in my new post, which explains how the Pill is tilting women increasingly toward choosing Beta. Interesting research.

Dashiell, I know well how time consuming it is to leave a thoughtful and lengthy replay. I appreciate your effort, thoughtfulness and articulate explanations a great deal. As a woman, I NEED to know what men are thinking in order to give any advice that's worth a damn. I need both sides of the story. So thank you.

Nicole, thanks so much for leaving a comment. From reading this post and the comments, you know that you aren't alone. One thing that happens, I think, is that when a guy encounters a girl who he knows is way out of his league, he has nothing to lose by being rude to her. He knows he can't attract her with conventional lines, so he goes for broke. I can't imagine it ever works, but who knows.

It's interesting to hear you bring up the issue of weight. I have heard from women before who feel uncomfortable with a lot of overt male attention as they just walk around, etc. Putting on weight, dressing down, and so on is one way of giving really pretty women some anonymity.

You also make an interesting point about the workplace. Beautiful women are much more likely to be harrassed or objectified. If you look like Madeleine Albright, for example, you can go about your work without sexual tension getting in the way.

Yes Pretty girls IMO have it harder. All my life I've been told how beautiful I was, smart and funny. I'm 27 years old and I am still single. I honestly don't know what guys want. I'm attractive, smart and well educated and I am not a conceited bitch. I just don't know!

Ugh! That text! Look, men have always been interested in sex and always will be. That's fine. But I hate it that they show so little respect for women, objectifying them in this way. So many women get a lot of the wrong kind of attention from men. No woman wants to walk down the street and be ogled by strangers.

The really awful thing is, these tactics must work at least some of the time. This guy must find that he gets a lot of sexy texts back when he says that kind of thing. Women need to demand more respect, and punish guys who don't offer it.

Hi Steve,

I hear you – and I think you’re right that beautiful women just have a different set of problems. One of the reasons I wrote this article is that so often women feel that if only they were as hot as “so and so” they’d have it made. Also, it depends on what a person wants. There are probably many beautiful women who love getting free stuff and lots of attention from random strangers. However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.

I think you make an excellent point about earning admiration. A beautiful woman may get a lot of guys chasing her, but she will often feel that they don’t see the real her. Her looks get in the way. And as you say, gratuitous sexual attention is offensive.

I will agree that narcissists are often good looking, and I’m not sure which comes first. Are they people who have lazily learned to rely on their looks to get them ahead? Or are they narcissists who can be especially toxic due to their good looks?

Instead, be open minded to finding a love interest in situations and places where sex doesn’t take precedent (grocery store, chamber of commerce event, blockbuster, DMV).

Grocery store again ?

Since when do people meet in grocery stores? Or Blockbusters? Or DMV’s?

Do you really think it is a good idea for me to loiter around a grocery store, Blockbuster, or DMV from opening to close just to meet someone whom I would want as a girlfriend?

Where do people get these ideas?

“One of the reasons I wrote this article is that so often women feel that if only they were as hot as “so and so” they’d have it made.”

Very fair point – yes I hear this sentiment a lot if indirectly…actually that made it a lot clearer!

“However, those who would like a monogamous relationship can find it a real challenge. The men confident enough to approach them are often players, and they intimidate lots of other men.”

This makes a lot of sense – and it must over time become a point of disillusionment…probably at first it is exciting while younger…

Yeah – men and women’s value is in so much more that their image and appearance. The subject of narcissism is an interest of mine and I recently read a very revealing book on the subject. Many people view narcissism as someone who loves themselves. However narcissists dont and cannot love themselves or others. They are obsessed with creating a fixed mask to hide emotional numbness. They cannot accept their true authentic ‘self’. They seek power (in their image) to dominate from a deep fear of being humiliated. Its something thats thought to be caused by some emotional trauma in childhood…the source of which is outside the scope of this post…

But there is a wider concept of narcissism in our society now days that did not used to exist to such an extent. The image – how we look and display ourself – is of huge importance in our society. This is my opinion is out of balance. Core values of dignity, respect and authenticity in our society take second place now to appearance and power. Previously in cultures an individual would gain high status from having a dignified and wise character. However now we have the age of celebrity where people will do anything to gain power through fame – they are prepared to trash their dignity in order to get it.
How does this relate to female issues? Well its understood by some that looks count for females – more so than males. I propose then a narcissistic society will only take this (proposed) evolutionary norm and drive it out of balance. And so no wonder beautiful women feel disillusioned by men who are not interested in their true ‘self’ – their character and who they are on a deeper level.
Im still developing my thoughts on this so please excuse me if something doesnt quite sound right or some of my generalisations are clumsy….but the more I understand the more I see the lack of value of the feminine nature that exists in our western society. As opposed to the surface image-to which huge value is attributed. No wonder beautiful women feel angry-its like they are being put on a pedestal for only one fraction of their potential. So rarely do I ever hear of anyone praising how nurturing, caring, loving a girl is. And at worst if someone is very caring they can even be manipulated or used-rather than adored and praised for this trait. All billboards ever display is physical beauty. I never read an advert that says ‘She blooms life, she pours love and nurture into her children to create positivity, The foundation of life is built on her love – the glue that holds the family unit together…’.
Maybe thats just not sexy enough and sex sells – our society is obsessed with a sort of immature form of sex – rather than a true representation of what sex is. Narcissistic also I guess.
Just like us humans are not living in balance with the earth at the mo (destroying it and trying to control it), I also believe our society is completely out of touch with the importance of the feminine nature. Its kind of shameful when I think about it…of course there are worse examples (Sharia law etc) – but still – its something that often people dont realise how important it is perhaps because we are now so bombarded by image all the time rather than taught the issues of real value in life.

Honestly it sounds so conceited to agree with this but even last night I had numerous uncomfortable situations related to this topic (people think I’m conventionally beautiful)… I went to town with my mixed group of friends to play pool, I was just wearing jeans, ballet shoes and a peacoat, and I still got drunk guys saying the rudest things to me. I also got called a snobby bitch twice by different guys after I didn’t respond to their passing comments (even though I smiled politely). Wow. Then on the drive home my flatmate asked me again why I don’t have a boyfriend and told me I was really weird because of it (he had been constantly hitting on me lately which makes my life so uncomfortable). Lastly I talked to a guy I met recently and have hungout with a few times and talk to a lot online… super funny, smart, good looking.. which I thought was finally a good sign and that he liked me or whatever… then he proceeded to tell me that he was ‘pleasantly suprised at how pleasant I was’ after getting to know me. I questioned this, to which he pretty much stated he expected me to be dumb because I look like a shallow and fashionable person, and that he was suprised that I love to read and know about things he doesn’t. Like Kierkegaard. Or Lutherism. Um, is that a compliment? I look like a dumb snobby bitch… thanks. By this stage I wanted to cry myself to sleep. Ha. Also last night found out my incredibly beautiful best friend from high school ( like Megan Fox, Angelina Jolie beautiful!) is on heavy medication and suicide watch because she tried to kill herself 2 weeks ago. So please don’t think people who are ‘good looking’ have life easy because no one does. P.S. I’m only 20 so sorry if this reads like a ramble in Cosmopolitan.

This is a great post! There’s no way of saying this without seeming full of myself, so I’ll just say it: I’m a noticeably attractive woman. By that I mean that I get a lot of compliments from strangers daily, I get stared at a lot, and occasionally I’ll get something free.

But, I wasn’t always this way; I used to be 80 lbs heavier and I was virtually invisible to most men. The attention and perks are all VERY new to me (it started in January when I moved to the most shallow city in existence- LA) so I know how it is to be on both sides of the tracks. Life really is… different for pretty people. I’ve watched the difference in my own life, and those changes are both good and bad.

While people are much nicer and trusting towards me, I really do feel like a lot of the new friends I have only like me because I’m pretty. And I’m certain that I only got my newest job as a hostess at a restaurant because of my looks. While at work I get a lot of unwelcome comments from male customers, and older men seem to think that it’s perfectly fine to touch me without my permission. And like Lily, if I reject a guys advances I’m immediately called “snobby” or a b*tch.

Also, lately I’ve felt like a lot of guys I date think of me as some sort of accomplishment. Like, they’ll immediately take me around their friends and I can’t help but think it’s because they want to show me off. And on top of this, I think that a lot of guys with good intensions are afraid to approach me or show interest in me for fear of rejection, so I have to make it painfully obvious that I like a guy before he’ll initiate something with me.

Don’t get me wrong, overall I’m loving this newfound attention and popularity, but this article is very true. It doesn’t bother me too much though, I feel like because I attract more guys, I’m more likely to eventually meet a really good one.

Miranda, you had a boyfriend take you around to meet your friends because he wanted to “show you off”, I’ve had the opposite! I was involved with a man who, while everyone else said I was beautiful, was ashamed of me because I was not his usually “ethnic type”. It feels horrible to be thought of as “attractive” by everyone but the man who is supposed to “love” you.

that is so true! im in the same predicament as you darling!

“I personally know at least a dozen young women who are the whole package: Lovely to look at, smart, curious, funny, interesting, generous. And they’re all unattached.”

Oh really? Prove it. Personally Susan, I call BS on your claim. Experience and the school of hard knocks lead me to my conclusions.

The problem is that a lot of those women are so jaded that if a decent guy did chase after one of them, they are often very distrustful and frequently do extremely annoying things to scare him away. No guy wants to be with a woman who is very distrustful.

Those women may have experienced womanizers, but that was because those were the guys that those women wanted or hung out with. There are lots of decent guys who get ignored by many women in college. A decent guy who was ignored by most of the women in his college days is not going to settle for a jaded woman if he can help it – he won’t tolerate a distrustful and angry woman and will pursue women who seem nicer and more appreciative.

I agree with everything the writer says. I’ve always been an introvert who was more interested in politics and current events than the latest reality show. As a teenager and college student I had bad hair, bad acne, didn’t wear makeup, and was totally ignored by guys. I distinctly remember being introduced to one particular guy 3 times in a one month period in college and he never remembered me. I was invisible to the opposite sex. I’m in my late 20′s now and my appearance has definitely changed for the better. I can walk into a room and both men and women turn to stare at me. I’ve been allowed to enter clubs without having to wait in line. Yet, I’m still single. Guys stare at me but never approach me. They know my name even though I don’t know theirs. My current job leaves little opportunity for meeting single men. When other females find out I’m single, they are shocked because it is naturally expected that I have a current boyfriend. My female coworkers are surprised to learn that I spend my weekends by myself.

I used to think that attractive women have it easier but I was wrong.

Hi Susan,
I’m a 20 year old college student and I really related to this article. There’s no way of saying this without sounding vain, so I’ll just say it – I’m attractive; I get frequent comments in the streets, have been approached for modeling, get hit on only by the meathead player-types, and people are always shocked to hear I don’t have a boyfriend. In fact, I’ve never had a boyfriend. I’ve never even been kissed. This is likely a consequence of my shyness going up. During high school I was completely absorbed in my studies and genuinely had not developed interest in boys yet. Now that I am interested in dating, I have no idea where to start. I am still very shy around boys because, as said before, I have literally zero experience. I don’t even have any good guy friends. When talking to a guy I’m interested in, I get very nervous and turn bright red. To avoid this, I tend to put up walls and avoid contact altogether. I know this only makes me seem standoffish and intimidating but am often too afraid to take the risk of opening up. I know that you’ve said pretty girls have to encourage men to make them more comfortable, but I have no clue how to do this. Do you have any suggestions on how to overcome shyness in this situation? I’m just fed-up with passing up guys I’ve been interested in simply because I don’t know how to indicate my interest without clamming up and feeling insecure. I’m not interested in the hookup culture and am just looking for an authentic connection with someone.
Any advice would be very much appreciated!

Thanks for commenting but I’m also dealing with the fact that any guy that I’m remotely friendly to thinks that I am attracted to him.  When my looks changed for the better I became friends with one guy who actually approached me and talked to me.  I made it clear that I only wanted to be his friend. I also was not physically attracted to him at all. Fast forward two years later and he decides that it is time for us to be more than friends.  I say I still only want to be his friend and he never talks to me again.  He was so angry with me when I rejected his advances. Before my looks changed, guys only considered me as a friend, no matter how friendly I was was them or how much I blushed and stammered in the presence of a particular guy.  Now, if I even talk too long to a guy or even look in his general direction, a guy thinks that I am interested in him when I’m not.  I’m so used to being invisible that now it scares me to be the female who get the attention of most guys.  I don’t know what to do with it.

Attractive women have it much harder when they start to believe their own hype. I touched upon this on Darlock’s blog. A lot of men will put pretty girls up on pedestals- its no wonder many start to think that they are head and shoulders above everyone else….and then they become too picky, rejecting perfectly good mates for Billionaire Tom Brady look a like who never comes.

However, aside from the problems that arise from being willfull and choosy, it is better to be a pretty girl than an ugly girl. Life is easier. You have more choice of dates, and when problems arise you have a better chance of getting them solved.

I was never a beauty queen, but am definitely above average. Recently, after driving my husband crazy for the 10,000th time I broke some mundane rule, he turned to me and said:

The rules just don’t apply to you eh?

I thought long and hard about it, and realized, that in many instances, they haven’t.
1) I was allowed to drive home by a policeman after blowing over the alcohol limit
2) I have been pulled over 4 times for bad driving and given a ticket only one of those times (and another officer at the court reduced it)
3) I washed my passport before an international trip and got a new passport in 3 hours (it usually took 3 weeks)

I don’t know if these are good things. They have made me a little spoiled and reckless, but I know they wont last forever. I don’t feel that conflicted about it though. I know I’ll miss it when its gone…..

Imagine every person on a bus looking up towards you and then staring all the way to your destination. Or image walking onto the train and every head on that train turns. Imagine just walking in the grocery store and having men and women stop what they are doing and just turn towards you as you walk by. I smile a sweet smile if anyone makes eye contact with me. I say “Hi” to some people who make eye contact (young, old, fat, slender, male, female, tall, short)and they look shocked that I said “Hi”. Like beautiful people are not supposed to be nice or something. I just do not get that thought process.

I am told that I look like Uma Thurman, Cindy Crawford or Shania Twain at least seven times a week. I do not have as high of an opinion about my physical make up as others seem to. I do not keep track of the latest celebrity, the latest look, or the latest fashion. I wear tinted moisturizer, Burt’s Bees lip protector, put my hair in a french twist, wear Eddie Bauer crew necks, long pants, and basically think….Well, here I am , take it or leave it.
I dress for comfort, not to entice or to create interest.

I know that I contribute to society by working with children, volunteering my cooking skills at a homeless shelter, giving blood to the American Red Cross, and by donating high nutrient food items to our local food pantry. I know that I make a difference in other people’s lives so I just live day to day taking it all in stride.

Let them stare — I am just human. If beautiful people would just not get involved with the hype that surrounds the myth of beauty, then life can be rather normal.

great post!
there is a darkside to everything. i am a curvy, wear alot of black have dark hair wear nerdy glasses, my younger sis is petite with a “nice” body. i have been witness to how men treat her, looks glances, or heard her tell me stories of older men in their late 30s at work. sexual inuendo ect.
i use to think she had it so good, until i realized we both had it good and bad in different ways.

Pretty girls that say they are rarely approached don’t know the other side of the coin. Ask an average woman and a pretty woman how often they are approached in a month…you’ll see.

Another issue not discussed here, which is very important; is leagues. Most younger people shoot out of their leagues for many years. Unfortunately, we don’t determine our own leagues, the public in general does. Water finds it’s own level, and the process can be painful.

I am guilty of this also. I consider myself a solid 8 who pursues 9-10, while the 6-7-8′s pursue me. In time, I will capitulate, but only when I “am getting old”. I will date these women briefly, but always am looking for something better.

With women, they many times waste their youth/beauty getting free stuff, dating tons of bad boys, taking free trips with old men, sleeping around, etc. They don’t even give any thought to offering their future husband their “good years”. Then, when they have “had their fun”, they look to offer their husband stretch marks, wrinkles, unhealthy hair, etc. THE GUY THEY COMMIT TO, THE ONE WHO WILL SUPPORT HER THE REST OF HER LIFE, DOESNT EVEN HAVE A MEMORY OF WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG AND HOT!!!! The club heads and players got the hot, young body…..the husband gets the high mileage one!

As her looks fade into her thirties, her standards don’t. She still thinks she deserves the life she had ten years ago. That’s when the bitterness sinks in. Ladies, cash in your chips early, BEFORE the looks fade. Give your future husband your best years….you know he deserves it.

Dear pretty lonely,
Sorry to hear your story pretty lonely. You are are obviously ready for an LTR.
I would suggest speed dating, just to get back into flirting.
.
Don’t be over keen though, it can appear needy and also be sure you really like him for him.
Dont just stay with a guy cos you want to be married.

To Marc and Kurt
Yuk to everything you said
I wish I could erase your comments from every girl who ever reads those comments.
.

You do realize you are reducing everything down to youth and beauty?
My best years are ahead of me.
I am 40, have more wisdom, have a few tricks in the sack I never had at 20, and pobably have a better dress sense than when I was at college.
True I have a few more lines and I’m proud of every one of them.
I would certainly find a 30 yo mam more attractive this his 20 yo edition
I think when you grow up a bit you may have a different perspective.
.
I would say to girls to enjoy life whilst you can.
True one should always aim realistically but beauty is only skin deep.
.
Thev bitterness I see from girls is due to men cheating or being lied to.
Plenty of women have fun young and settle later in life, just like a billion men before them.
Please dimiss the comments of Marc and Kurt. Its not 1940.

I have my 2 kids so vanquishment be damned.
Fertility really drops off at 38 according to the NHS.
From 18 onwards there is a slight drop-off on the graph or increased risk of complication.
So according to terries logic all 17 year old girls should try and get pregnant.
.
As it happens in terms of genetic disease, the mans age often is more critical. ( nhs info).
This is because sperm is manufactured during the lifetime of the man whereas eggs are made in utero and then stored so the dna is always pristine.
.
If you marry young and then get divorced does that help girls?
What if they marry young, to the wrong person and waste precious years?
Isn’t it better to have fun, know what you want and make a good choice? A lasting choice?
Where are these women that terre are speaking about?
In my experience active women tend to get the guy. Just an observation across many countries. The women who are childless are that way irrespective of sexual freedoms. Again just an observation.

Jess,
I have to ask: what is the point of you being here?

My reason for asking is because, I’ve been reading your comments here in this venue for sometime now, and they seem incredibly defensive. Not that there’s anhything wrong with that per se, but it is interesting to see. It seems like your defending something, and I want to know what that something is.

As to the current topic at hand…

In terms of the USA, all the data as we have it, from sources such as the US Census etc, it clearly shows noted patterns. For one thing, when it comes to divorce, Men remarry at much higher rates than do Women, and this is especially true the older they get. Moreover, the former tends to marry much younger the second time around than the latter, if the latter remarries at all.

Second, Women over 35 have a much harder time in the SMP than do Men of the same age. By the time tnhey both hit 40, the Men are having a much better time of it in aggregate, than are the Women; for all intents and purposes, and again I’m speaking in aggregate terms here, the Women begin to become invisible sexually, to the vast majority of Men. In general, and in the main, Men prefer younger to older Women, all things being equal. Yes, there are some exceptional Women out there who can continue to attract Men regardless as to their own age. You may indeed be one of them. But all it takes is a quick look around to confirm what I am saying in the main, is indeed true. Nor am I making a grand value judgment statement here. I don’t have a dog in the fight and it makes me no difference one way or another. I am simply just stating what by now be easily observable facts of life.

Holla back

O.

Terre
I was perhaps sloppy with my terminology.
If you don’t like the nhs as a suorce then you could go the baby centre web site.
fertility does drop continuously from 18 to 50 but that just means it takes longer for a 35 yo to get pregnant than a 25 yr old.
What is critical is the infertility graph and that spikes at……38!
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There is also a corresponding spike with diseases but they are still relatively rare.
Do remember many genetic issues come from the sperm anyway.

Instead of spike I should have said sudden increase.
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Obsidian,
I haven’t looked at the data myself but am happy to accept the trends you assert.
The thing is there is always other factors at play.
I guess a guy would prefer a girl of 25 to 35 but what if the older one was his sexual and spiritual soul mate?
The trends you mention are not of identical humans so extrapolation is iffy.
.
My grandmother lived a life of servitude and sexual repression.
I, lucky cow, lived an exciting fun life and have been blessed with 2 happy kids.

Jess,

Stop it please! Grow up and face reality. All of us 40+ girls are less desireable, …and thats it! You love your wrinkles??? Shut up stUpid. You love being 40+ ???? Because I hate it. But, we had our chance with our youth, and we have passed the torch to the new, young beautiful girls. Support them, don’t hate on them. I am jealous….and happy for them.

Correction:

I meant to say “where the game of sustainable-over-the-generations survival and procreation operate by entirely different rules”.

My apologies for the error.

To filbabat,
Great post. Well put and I concur. We should take responsibility for our actions and be mindful of consequences. Regardless of urges.
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Kurt,
My point was that in your earlier post you reduced a persons worth down to beauty and age. As you get older you might find your view changes.
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In isolation yes a 25 yo women is hotter than a 40 yo generally speaking. But that does not mean to say women desperately have to spend their youthful fun years worrying about chastity of landing an acceptable hubby. You sound like a victorian uncle.
You may know lots of childless unhappy 39 years women who had lots of partners in their youth and are now haggard and unwanted. Well if thats your observation I can’t argue with that.
All I can say is that an attractive modern women in her late 30′s wants a relationship then she tends to succeed. They may have to join an agency or put on a nice frock but they get there in the end.
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I’m trying to think of any of my college friends or colleagues without kids or partners. It’s not easy.
I had few gay friends who never adopted.
I knew one stunning friend who had severe mental issues. She was still single last time I heard.
Some of my lesser conventianlly attractive friends took a while to settle but they got there.
All of the sexually active girls did ok in that regard later in life. So don’t get the need for panic.

Well I agree with one thing. When it comes to biology life is seldom fair or kind.
Otherwise there would no such thing as varicose veins, double chins, impotence, early menopause or bald patches.
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I agree, all things being equal ( they never are) a 20yo is more attractive than a 40 yo.
It’s almost beyond denial. But that was never in dispute.
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If you find women your own age jaded that may be a reflection of your company or you picked incompatable 40 yo. I think many 35 yo men might find a 25yo a tad naive and immature. A bit irritating perhaps? Or perhaps you like the fact they admire the older man. They may appreciate your solvency perhaps?
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I am glad the 40yo demonstrate e

To be quite frank, Jess, we can’t say for certain what the future holds for promiscuous women because American women have never in history been as promiscuous as they are today. Given the plummeting rate of marriage, I don’t foresee anything particularly pleasant.

“Birthrate seems ok.”

Did you actually bother looking at the stats? They are way below the replacement level everywhere in the West.

“I’m not aware of any normal sexually active women who has failed to get an LTR when she was ready.”

How do you explain the louder and louder complaints of middle-age women that they cannot find an “eligible” man? The widespread complaints of women in general that men are “avoiding commitment”? Yes, woman are able to form LTRs – just not with the men they can get to commit.

Just keep fiddling as Rome burns, Jess. Your solipsism is hilarious.

Jess, yes it is true that many 25 year-olds might be immature and some might appreciate a man’s “solvency.” However, there are also many older women who are also the same way. In fact, older women are often worse about the money thing because they are desperate to get married and want a man with money who would be a good provider.

You might find this hard to believe, but there actually are some well-balanced attractive women in their late 20s who are genuinely attracted to men in their mid-30s and it really isn’t because of the men’s net worth. I actually find that if anything many women seem to undervalue a man’s earning capabilities.

Good points Kurt. I am 31, and have zero attraction to women in their 30′s or 40′s. I recognize some of them are beautiful, but there is no “click” in my brain. It’s not my fault, it’s 3 million years of instinct.

I want to give my future child the best chance at being healthy, and younger women produce healthier children, period.

Also, I deserve to have the best years of the mother of my future child. I am planning ahead, nothing wrong with that. A 32 yo may look good today, and be somewhat fertile. But, what about in 10 years????? A 22 yo is going to look better and be fertile much longer.

There’s nothing negative about what I just said, it’s all positive…..unless you’re a bitter 45 yo.

I agree again with Kurt. I never met a normal man who wants a girl with lots of “tricks in the sack”. I would prefer a younger, less attractive girl with zero tricks, than an attractive women in her 30′s or 40′s with “experience”. Yuck.

Sorry, last post was from me not Marc
Jess

The big elephant in the room of this discussion I see here is this:

The male libido cools down as they age. Maybe not for all me, but a staggeringly high percentage of them considering the typical male reluctance to admit to a decreased libido due to its supposedly “unmanliness”. Even at age 30, men’s libido’s – though still somewhat strong – aren’t nearly as tyrannically high as even five years earlier. And yes, this does vary by individual, yes, but this is an overall general tendency for the male gender as a whole. By 35 and especially by 40, a lot – and I mean a lot – of men start to think “Sex? Ehhh…ok..”

I myself had this happen to me a bit earlier than usual (around 28, 29-ish..hard to pinpoint). Certainly by 30 I started to enter the “Ehh, ok” phase, and has only declined since. In fact, for several years, I wondered if I was turning asexual. I eventually decided I wasn’t turning into one, given that women can still attract my attention just from their physical features and certain personality traits alone. But that doesn’t hold my attention nearly as much as 15 years ago. Result: I find myself less and less motivated to meet women, no matter how young or nubile or curvy or accomplished. Women (at least as far as relationships are concerned) are simply not relevant to my happiness at my age (43) and haven’t been for at least 14 years.

I only bring this up because women seeking husbands can always – according to popular myth – look to older single men. This is simply untrue more often than we think, for reasons described above. Life’s experience with drama, relationship politics, etc. only further reinforces the apathy. I’d imagine this is particularly true for men with lots of bad experiences with women in their younger days. Why would they want to date the very types of women who rejected them in their younger years (i.e. the hot ones, even solidly intelligent and accomplished attractive women). In fact, they’re probably glad their libido is – if not dead, at least on the way out. Oh, they still find such women attractive and may even have sexual fantasies about them – but that’s as far as it’s gonna go. Granted, younger men do make poor choices in women too but this does not change the fact that MANY men’s libidoes decline as early as their 30s. This also does much to reduce the supply of available older men the women of marriagable age want.

As for the men in their early 30s still in the dating market, their priorities also changed (at least the committment-minded ones). Substance,personal content, and overall integrity and trustworthiness will count for more – and they will sacrifice A LOT in the way of beauty, style, charm, personal charm, accomplishments, and even intelligence to get that substance, integrity, etc. They’ve had their experiences with “hot” women, and found that so many were not good wife material, or even considerate of other’s concerns. The aforementioned natural decline of the male sex drive (at least in many men) only makes it easier to succeed at what I just described.

So it is that the posts discussed immediately above have a lot more urgency than is commonly thought — unless we want to completely do away with not just marriage but with committment and parenthood altogether (I’m not holding my breath for that one).

Dear Susan,
Did you find my 2 missed posts? One appeared for a day and then vanished.
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Re: fertility.
I know you appreciate science so I used several sources that gave the same info.
Nhs, baby centre web site, several USA fertility info sites.
They all said the same thing.
Fertility does steadily drop off in a straight line from 18 to 50. The line is gentle though.
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So yes there is a link with age- we agree on that don’t we?
Fertiltity graphs are a measure of pregnancy verses copulation attempts.
So you have to do it more times to concieve if you are 30 compared to being 20 (probably)
However infertility( a total inability to conceive) only suddenly increases at 38 ( though the USA sites said 35-40)
I didn’t see anything about infertility jumping up at 27. Are you sure thats right?
Happy to be corrected of course. I agree it’s important girls have this critical info.
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Desirability-
I have just read back my posts and I did make it clear that 20 yo women were hotter than 40 yo women. So I think we already agree there.
That does not mean to say I would go along with marc’s attitude though which was a bit shallow IMO.

Women are revered in society for motherly qualities. This means youth and good looks. (Healthy, fertile, and more likely to pass our genes succesfully).

Women like handsome men also. But, men are more revered in society for their ability to bring meat back to the cave. (Income to feed the babies and……pass genes). It goes on and on. It’s no big secret.

Boobs? Why do men love boobs? They are not “for us”. They are for feeding babies, thats it. We like big, healthy looking boobs because it appears they have sufficient milk to provide for our babies….thats it!!!

Whether you like it or not, we live subconsciously. We have 3million years guiding our moves. You can intelligently argue all of it, but you’re not going to buck mother nature and her 300+ BILLION years of experience.

Back on topic about pretty girls having it harder. Many do. Think of this. The bell curve, most people are 4′s,5′s and 6′s in the looks department. Most people get together with people in their same league. That being said, a gorgeous woman actually has MUCH LESS opportunity in the dating community. She can/will only date a guy who is also a 9 or 10. There are not many 9′s or 10′s available. The 4′s 5′s and 6′s have billions of choices for mates, whereas a 10 has very little choices. Could be very frustrating, especially since most women in their teens and twenties desire a man slightly older. Most high value 30 year old men have been taken. This leaves them lowering their standards, or sticking to their guns and being constantly frustrated. “Why can’t I find a good guy” really means “I am pretty, and deserve a hot, rich, romantic 30 year old, but can’t land one”. The competition for that guy is fierce, believe me. There are MANY more hot young girls, than high value 30 yo dudes.

Susan and Rye, good comments. Rye, I am happy to share genuine thougths about how us guys think. Unbiased, sometimes hard to swallow, truth.

BTW, I can also say “you can’t force a guy to lust after girls he doesn’t find even marginally attractive. And you force young girls to be turned off by confidence, money, social suaveness, swagger, and “alpha” traits” – foir both genders, at the expense of the boring but important traits that make up a truly sustainable relationship.

For the human species as a whole, it’s so deeply rooted in our DNA and/or neural architecture that we can’t come even close to eliminating this disconnect between our biology and our technology-oriented physical environment. We can minimize or maximize these tendencies in people with heterosexual urges of normal strength for that age though – chiefly through changing the culture and (for those who care to call it this) mass propaganda. We have a chance with young people whose sex drives are considerably weaker than the norm, yes. BUT, as I said, we can’t come even close to eliminating this problem for the youth / young adult population as a whole. All we can do is hope that we simply evolve out of this eventually (but that’ll take at least 100 generations, if it can be accomplished at all).

Jess, you can’t just name your sources when you make a claim that “[...] fertility does steadily drop off in a straight line from 18 to 50. The line is gentle though.” You have to link to them, or at least name the studies. 50-year-old women are nigh infertile.

Terre,
Try the ‘baby centre’, nhs websites, or type in ‘infertility and age’ into your search engine.
The baby centre has a graph showing infertility and fertility plotted against age on the same graph.
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Hollenhund,
Am I to assume you disagree with the sexual peak thing? It’s a well known truism in the uk.
I think it came originally from kinseys research.
I looked at the web and some people refute this though.
Tbh I have always had a fairly good libido since 18 but most of my friends say they are much more sexually needy since hitting 30.

Jess, those “massive safe sex” campaigns are part of the problem. If you assume teenagers are supposed to be having sex, you normalize that expectation and the astute ones will start doing it. Their parents aren’t teaching them about soul partnership or chastity, they’re just letting them take lessons from wherever (crappy pop music that shoves sex to make a buck) and when they get to school and realize they’re supposed to be having sex already it causes panic and untold anxiety. I know because I’m young enough that I was pushed through one of the UK’s constant “sex ed” classes.

Terre,
This is the age old dilemma- how to stop humans doing something they enjoy but does long term harm.
I think the ‘ just say no’ approach has been tried many times but it just doesn’t seem to work. USA tried it with drugs. So did the uk.
USA tried it with alcohol. Never works.
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So I think the thinking is that ‘if we can’t stop them then we at least should educate them’.
I agree this is only partially successful but may be the best of 2 poor options.
Driving something underground just means misinformation and ignorance which could literally cost lives.
It’s true that if 15 yos are given a condom demonstration it normalizes teenage sex.
But trust me you do need to teach them this otherwise the teenage pregnancy figures would go up even more. A lot more.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t eh?
Ps don’t get me started on the media sexualisation of children!!! Another thread entirely i think…

This article is almost 100% on point. Except in high school , I had trouble making and keeping friends. The very same females who would say I was “gorgeous” were the very same ones lying about me behind my back and so on.
After so much unwarranted drama with so many females, I finally decided to just give up on female friendships altogether. My friends are family members.
I still get the petty and insane behavior from random women at work, school and so on. I ignore it all. I don’t think women realize how stupid and obviously insecure they make themselves look when they behave that way. *SMH*
Also, I rarely date. Men who approach me only do so after lots of eye contact, smiles and soft conversation. The worst is when a guy who wants to approach loses his nerve. They don’t know it but I spend MOST of my nights alone.

@Rachael
I totally feel you. I was never the pretty girl but I always made friends with the pretty girl for the reasons you mentioned. The other girls were pretty much just waiting for her to turn her back to chew her on for no good reason and I found that so unfair. I also tried to keep the rumors at the minimum and always talk well of them to people that asked me, I did had a lot of pretty girl friends that had few options usually they had to pick for a smaller pool of men because few of them were brave enough to approach and a lot of them assumed that the girl in question had something wrong (gold diggers, shallow, stupid, slutty….surely the rumors)
I don’t know how old are you but my advice is to try and model even if not for a big company. I seem that those venues are usually filled with men that will approach you and talk to you, some of them will be jerks, some of them will be married but at least a third of them will actually be dateable and maybe you will have more options. Another options is acting again more chances to meet pretty people that won’t be that intimidated about your looks, again two thirds would be waste but if you are smart you might find good company.
Good luck in life and love.

and just to clarify, by “trying to fix it” I mean I dropping more hints that I’m interested. However, my friends say that I need to be super aggressive b/c the ball is now “in my court”…but I’m not wired that way!! Not sure how to put myself out there without making a fool of myself…or if it’s even worth it b/c he might be over it

Well, I have been told I’m pretty, but I have to be told because I don’t think I am at all. Not from the way men treat me. I understand what she was talking about with men saying vulgar things. When you are pretty, don’t you get treated like you’re pretty? I had a female boss go on and on about how pretty she thought I was and how she couldn’t believe I wasn’t married. It makes me want to cry. Another person once told me I wasn’t using my looks right and how much better their life would be if they had my green eyes and curly hair. I went home and cried. They don’t understand that men just want to screw me and I think I’m really ugly because I can’t find someone who really likes me for me and wants to be with me.

I give up. I feel like singing Morrissey and Smiths songs all the time.

I am human and I need to be loved just like everybody else does…

Pretty girls do have it hard. It’s always difficult for me to tell whether a guy really likes me for me, or he just wants to sleep with me. Because when men wants something, they can act so charming and sweet and I’m way too naive and trusting so sometimes I get tricked into thinking they are decent men when they are not. And I really should know the difference by now because I’m 21, but sadly, seems like I never learned. (If there’s a prize for rotten judgment, I’ve already won it!) I just had my heart broken by a man who happened to fall into the latter category. And it sucks because I think he might have taken away my ability to trust.

Although I am approachable, I am not easy! I’m usually careful about getting into relationships because I know I am the kind of person who will get attached if I sleep with someone, so I have never had just casual sex. And I’ve always had men pursuing me and I constantly get asked out even when I was in a long term relationship (and they know it!). Now that I am single, I got more men asking me out than I can handle. I’m being constantly pursued by men I know well, men I just met, men who are friends with my friends, men who are friends with my ex, men at the bar, men at college, men at work… and my really great guy friends

I know people will hate me for saying this, but there are times in my life when I wish I wasn’t born so privileged. It brings more trouble than benefits/advantages. Sure, it’s nice to be let into bars/pub/clubs free and without waiting in line. Sure it’s nice to always have at least one man helping me out with things. Sure it’s nice and fun to go on casual dates, and have all the attention I want, and men to talk to, any time and any where I want. And it’s really nice to never be rejected and to always get the men I want. But it’s gotten to the point where I’m actually afraid to make eye contact with men for too long because they might think I’m interested and make advances! Because just last Friday, I was called hot and being hit on all because I chatted with him after the law final, and I was in sweatpants with little makeup.

But it’s not real.

And there’s another thing. I don’t know how to play the game. I’m one of those pretty girls who is really nice, genuine and sweet, and who doesn’t play games. And although I am confident most of the time, some times it scares me just how alone I might be when one day I am no longer young and pretty. Because I can never tell if men are interested in me because I am pretty, or because I am pretty… amazing as a person.

“I give up. I feel like singing Morrissey and Smiths songs all the time.”
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I also love the Smiths, but I caution everybody to only listen to them when you’re in a good mood and a good way in life. Listening to them when you’re down is hazardous to your health!

If you get all offended if people hit on you, imagine what it’s like to never be approached. Ever.

OffTheCuff:
I should have phrased what I said better. I don’t get offended when people hit on me. It’s just when I see those nice guys who I’m just not interested in, either because of differences in values, personalities or just because I’m not physically attracted to them, and I see them trying to hit on me constantly or make advances, I get a little nervous because I hate rejecting people, so I try to avoid their eyes and drop subtle hints that I’m not interested in hopes that they’d back off before getting hurt! Because I know all too well what it’s like to be lead on and then left dangling there wondering what went wrong.

And I do eat donuts. I eat one almost every day. It’s so bad hahaha, but I don’t really put on weight so I don’t work out either.

Badger:
Haha you’re funny.

So that’s it? Pretty girls have it harder because you have to avert eye contact, otherwise you have to reject men explicitly? This sounds like Bill Gates complaining he gets lost in his mansion.

If I don’t avert eye contact, I don’t know what else I can do. I hate rejecting people, but I have to do it. I just don’t want to lead people on because I know what it’s like to waste time.

Marc: that’s not true. I’ve dated 5-7s.

Hello, I’m a guy and I have recently find this website. The viewpoints are really interesting.

A little background about me: Back in high school, I wasn’t a social person at all and so when I went to college, I nearly dropped out. But I kept shouldering on and struggled to finish school, because I believe that if I can just become financially capable to support a girl, a pretty girl will eventually come along and see that I’m better than those pick-up artist who focus so much on their time on just banging a girl.

Guess what, during my last semester, a pretty girl did in fact come along. I couldn’t believe my luck when she agreed to lunch with me. I admit, a great part of my attraction comes from the fact that she’s very attractive, but I also feel a bond with her because we both were ostracized during high school. She was sending me all these signals, but I was so shy and didn’t believe it was possible. So I didn’t tell her but continued to shower her with gifts and attention, and hoping that she would get the hint.

And three months later, she found out that I actually have a crush on her but didn’t tell her, and she wouldn’t even consider going out with me anymore. I really feel I’m worthless. I said some very mean things to her that I regretted, but the emotional angst knowing that I could have get her to date me was even worse. For a while I was just paralyzed–I couldn’t focus on anything at all. I couldn’t decide whether to remain friends with her or not–on one hand, I really feel her pain because it’s something I’ve experienced myself. On the other hand, getting rejected really hurts.

I’m trying really hard to do the right thing but it’s so hard. Can anyone give me some advice? Thanks!

Susan,

Thank you. Thank you so much. I’ll definitely keep myself updated on this.

Sam

college I do not dress up for class, I wear very little make-up, and I am usually fairly lazy about using my acne meds so my skin is not in great shape. But the fact is I still receive unwanted attention in sweats, with no makeup and zits. And being pretty and a college athlete are two huge strikes against anyone taking me seriously as a student.
The only legitimate ‘perks’ I can really attribute to my looks are being hired to a retail job off of nothing but a picture and my SSN and the barista at Starbucks charging me for a grande and giving me a venti.
I feel that my looks have largely led to the creation of bizarre insecurities, feeling socially isolated and awkward, and patterns of self-sabotage. And even though I receive so much unwanted attention no boy I’ve ever had a crush on has paid me any mind and a few have even hooked up with close friends of mine. When things like this happen it causes me to question if I am actually pretty and I begin to wonder if everyone has just been lying to me my whole life. I don’t expect anyone to ever respect my academic or athletic achievement and I doubt that any boy will ever see me as more than a piece of ass or a trophy which are the last two things I want to be. I legitimately fear that I will never fall in love or get married even though I’m only 20. I am way too young to be this jaded and the feelings keep increasing.

Actually both extremes are hard, but I think we should just assume that most men will think you are easy till you show them you are not. That is usually and impression built out of many sluts (ugly ones and hot ones) and men have a hard time separating one woman from the herd, specially if the herd is HUGE.

I will say both need to make peace with their appearances, work to improve the areas that are lacking, in the case og ugglys get in shape, do some make up classes, and training and learn what kind of colors and clothes make them look better and on the case of pretty ones, learn to be able to find out exactly what kind of man they want.
I will advice to both to be the ones initiating even if it hurts, because men approaching you are not giving what you want to, so learn to be the hunters, stop being the prey.
Chances are that if you approach in a respectful non slutty matter to the type of guys you want in your life, chances are at least one of them will fall and in the end all we need is ONE.
And as a personal advice, please if the guy is great and adores you. MARRY HIM. Really don’t listen to nonsense of too young, too poor… people can study, work and built a life after they got married if they did a good choice and you don’t need to date many man to learn that, look at all the sluts that are divorced their sleeping around didn’t made them any wiser, and once you are out of the dating market concentrating on keeping one man happy, is a lot easier than going back to it, if you read the blogs of the guys that are actively dating that post here or on the manosphere, you know the dating market is full of sharks as of now and is only going to get worse, no point in staying it it if you can possible avoid it, YMMV.

@Susan
This post hits home the thought of being some guy’s bragging rights he can show around as an accomplishment based only on my outer appearance sickens me.

Quite funny how it’s not even the douches who do this but nice guys as well. The belief that nice guys who are too nervous to approach is a myth 5 of my friends debunked when they approached them. Those nice guys didn’t see or treat them any better than the douches the only difference was that the nice guys didn’t think they had a chance with a hot girl.

@Marc
“In time, I will capitulate, but only when I “am getting old”. I will date these women briefly, but always am looking for something better.”

So if you’re not giving your best years right now to your future wife & plan on marrying younger why do you lecture women to do what you don’t?

I’m well aware of older men preferring younger women it’s historical it’s just that I never really liked do as I say not as I do. I can respect do as I say not as I did because the speaker has learned from & stop his/her actions but you aren’t & haven’t in this case since you’re not spending your best years right now with your future wife.

Though to be far what men & women value are different so if you’re spending your best years building financial security I can somewhat respect your lecturing.

@Kurt
“A single man who is 40 years old might settle down with a 40 year old woman if that is the best woman he thinks he can get and who will be loyal to him. However, I honestly think that most single 40 year old men would prefer to settle down with a 30 year old woman or even younger if they thought that they could get one who would stay loyal.”

So why agree with Marc that women should spend their youth & beauty with a guy if when she hits whatever expiration date he personally has he’d prefer a younger woman & would take the chance if given?

“However, when you were dating were you ever out on a date with someone with a sense of entitlement, and a bad and negative attitude?”

Sounds like a lot of unattractive/average young and old men I know & some my friends even dated.

Many of the young guys thought since they were nice attractive women (only attractive women) should give them a chance and judge a guy based on character not looks.

Some thought they were 7s/8s and expected 9-10s when really they were 6s (though that may be from nice rejections by my colleagues).

Plenty of the older guys were out of shape and expecting not only girls 15 – 20 years younger but the most attractive ones & got quite upset when the girls (2 were closed friends) used them for what little money they had.

My friends badly rationalized their unacceptable behavior with “well this is a literal way of exchanging youth for resources.”

@Sam F
I object when any guy tries to buy his way into my pants.

However unlike a lot of girls I don’t want an older guy.

I don’t seek financial security from a mate but rather emotional security. I have enough savings, modeling money, pageant money, and freelance money to support myself & any kids I adopt/in vitro.

“So what do you think about a guy who’s currently a a loser now, but say: “I’m a loser but if I just resign myself and settle for what I can get, that’s resigning myself to fate. I want to work harder and see what I can *really* get from life!” and resolves to become the kind of man that is worthy of a beautiful lady?”
That he’s unlike a lot of my male friends who feel entitled to their hot girl& want certain women to give them a chance & unlike my female friends who feel entitled to their prince despite not having the traits that make a girl a princess (being a high maintenance b*tch is not one).

I’m all for personal development and realizing your flaws however if this is done just to attain beauty you might as well turn to pua/gaming.

Everyone wants a partner they are attracted to but when appreciating attractiveness (liking it) becomes admiring (valuing it) it there tends to be problems.

That settle for what I can get & worthy of a beautiful lady disappoints me though.

What is settling to you is it being with a girl as equally attractive as you settling as is the case of my male friends?

By being worthy do you only look to fix character issues & not appearance ones? Girls are less visual not blind & willing to compromise on looks when you have at least 70% of what they want.

@udolipixie

Indeed, when someone goes for a pretty girl just because they want some kind of emotional validation, it poisons the entire relationship in the beginning. Been there, done that… ended up hurting a girl that I really admire, and I’ll probably regret it for the rest of my life.

With that said, though, I do remember: once I worked in a convenience store and met a guy who pretty much survived on minimum wage and depended on borrowing from his mates to keep ends met. Yet, because he knows all the ways to have fun, never lose his cool around girls, know all the people in all the bars, etc, he can get all the pretty girls to sleep with him. I kid you not–I talked to some of the girls myself.

I mean, put yourself in my shoes. Here I am saving up money, cutting off expenses (there are weeks I survived with less than $15 a week on food), and studying the hardest I can despite everything that had happened to me–and you tell me that this *loser* can get girls (7 or 8′s) while I have to settle for someone I’m not attracted to, just because I’m not “fun”, easily lose my nerve around girls and haven’t ever gone clubbing. Sorry, but I don’t think I can take that. I’d rather stay single for the rest of my life than to accept this. What is so wrong with sacrificing now so that you can be the kind of man to support your wife financially and emotionally?

Sam, it’s not fair, life seldom is.

There are women who haven’t ridden the carousel. There are women who expect a man to fulfil his traditional role while they fulfil theirs. Some of them are quite attractive. You won’t find them in clubs though.

Nervousness around women is natural, at least for modern men. The only real way to overcome it is to spend lots of time with women. Becoming good at cold approaches means accepting a lot of failed approaches. It’s one of those “need experience to get a job, need a job to get experience” Catch-22s.

Thanks, guys, for the advices.

What brought me to this site is the fact that I recently screwed up a chance with this really pretty girl I really like. She’s really unique–she really stands up for things she believe in, which I find really refreshing (even though there are times I disagree with her).

Let me tell you a bit about myself: I grew up in an emotionally abusive home and my parents moved from Asia to America when I was 13, and the cultural shock eventually caused me to have a long (5+ years) depression. I have never really been able to connect with people well.

And so, actually when I met this girl–I was wondering about the question myself: “Is this what love is supposed to be like? Am I crushing on her because she’s soooo pretty, or because I really really like her as a person?” Because of this, I hesitated–and we only remained friends (I didn’t know about the “friend zone” either). Imagine the shock when I found out later from her friends that, had I asked her out, she would have said yes! I just went into shock for the next month or so.

Oh well, the past is the past, but from this experience I learned that:
1) If you’re a guy and you have emotional problems, you can’t depend on anyone else. You have to fix it yourselves. If you’re a girl, sometimes you can count on finding a really great guy who will support you all the way–I’ve actually known a girl like that, and I’m really really envious. But I’m a guy. So, gotta toughen up.

2) A guy really have to have experience with courting girls no matter what. If you’re not the kind of guy that are interested in things which can get you to meet girls (nerds, for instance, or math whizes), then you need to find other interests. Because desperation is sooooo not cool.

3) Jason is right. Because of my inexperience with girls, I lost my frame around this girl and eventually she lost interest. No matter how pretty a girl may be, you definitely can’t lose your frame. If there’s anything I’ve learned from my ex co-worker, having your life defined by women would only make you miserable. Goals have to be beyond women.

4) Matters of the heart are so complicated. I actually was naive enough to believe that girls and guys can remain friends. But these days, everytime I look at her profile picture on facebook and see how much she’s suffering from eating disorders–it really twists me up. So I had to defreidn her on facebook.

Regret really is a bitch. I’ll try to meet more people from now on, although I really doubt I’ll find another girl that I like that much from this point on. Studying game really makes one more cynical… I feel like I’m selling my soul to the devil sometimes.

Ok, my crush liked LOTR but I have always found that series boring… but if you keep this on, I’ll have to convert.