Beauty’s Not Falling For This Beast
I hadn’t really planned a post for today, but I woke up to a couple of things this morning that I just have to share. Before lunch today I had already felt: moved, amused, proud, surprised, enlightened, horrified, sickened, shocked, bewildered, repulsed and consumed by paroxysms of laughter. In other words, there’s good news, and there’s bad news. The irony of pairing up these two in one post was just too delicious to resist.
The Good News
You’ll recall that I recently wrote Do Pretty Girls Have it Harder? In that post, I included a photo of bblove, blogger at Live.to.the.point.of.tears. She is an amazing woman and here’s why:
- She’s blessed with the looks and body of a goddess. That pic of her in a swimsuit is spectacular, but she looks amazing in a flannel shirt too.
- She is very clever. She writes well and honestly. She’s funny.
- She’s incredibly grounded. She posts pics from her life and her important relationships. She is charmingly self-effacing. She knows what she’s got, and she knows how to use it, but she doesn’t think she’s better than you. She’s also an optimist, and a dog lover.
- She has a great eye. She posts lots of great photography, fashion, lyrics and poetry, and finds the greatest quotes from I know not where.
Today she has a blog post responding to my post (and the use of her photo; she didn’t mind, whew), and she talks about what dating and relationships are like for her. It’s really interesting. Here are some teaser quotes, but you really must go read the whole thing:
http://bblove.tumblr.com/post/217746868/its-clear-that-like-everyone-else-shes-had-her
“Historically, I have tended to date guys who, by objective opinion, aren’t as good-looking as I am. This speaks to a fundamental difference between men and women. Women want real, lifelong qualities that evolve and bolster them: humor, affection, loyalty … someone who is giving, talented, driven, intelligent, interesting.”
“Insecure men like to try and put you in your place. It’s the fucking Pickup Artist mentality that hot women are used to being treated like goddesses, so treat them like crap and you’ll have the upper hand.”
“The last guy I dated…pursued me for a month and half, despite me turning down his every effort. He wanted the challenge, the big touchdown. And, in the end, what did he say to me when I complained that I wanted more quality time out of him? “You’re just used to being catered to.” “
“Having a lot of desirable features means that I might have a slightly larger dating pool. Of assholes. I get sad and hurt. And it’s still going to take me as long as anyone else to find The Guy, because I’m unapologetic about what I want, and I don’t settle.”
Tomorrow morning instead of going to Texts From Last Night over your morning coffee, head over to see what bblove has to say instead. She’s a lovely way to start the day.
By the way, you might be wondering why I characterized this as good news. Of course it’s not good news that women get sad and hurt. What’s good for each of us to know is that all women are vulnerable, we’re all in the same boat. Women frequently believe that if they were just prettier, hotter, more confident, they would never be rejected. But rejection is a universal human experience. We need to support each other, resist the temptation to be consumed with envy, and develop the kind of optimism and strength that bblove finds within herself.
The Bad News
You will perhaps also recall the recent article Stop Putting Out for Alpha Asshats. I’ve talked a bit about Game/Pickup Artist techniques here because what started as a helpful attempt to give guys more self-confidence with women (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, essentially), has morphed into one horrendous cult. I wanted to identify and share the MO of these guys so that you could be well aware of their shtick when you go out. (It’s not hard to spot them. If a guy insults or “negs” you, tells you your friend is hot, that you’re going home with him, that he’s going to fuck you silly, you bitch, you know you’ve met a Pickup Artist.)
Some of the blogs dedicated to the “Seduction Community” (how creepy is that lingo?) generate serious traffic and hundreds of comments on posts. Which shows more than anything else that American men have a huge self-esteem problem. So I’m reading a post this morning at Ferdinand Bardamu’s blog, and he’s got some good points to make about the qualities men need to cultivate. (Don’t be distracted by his political ramblings -- this guy wishes women didn’t have the right to vote.) Anyway, I’m checking his cited sources and I see he’s a big fan of Roosh, who is apparently some kind of elder statesmen in the “Seduction Community.” I’m not really clear on the pecking order of these guys, but basically it means that he started out as a loser, but now gets laid so frequently his dick is about to fall off. I head over to Roosh’s blog and I find this:
Gaaahhhhhhhh! ;alkdfja;lsdkfja;sdlkfj;aslkdj;fasdjk!!!!!! Ewewewewewewwwwww!!!! OH. MY. GOD. At first I thought this was a kind of Onion-style spoof, but this guy takes himself waaaayyy too seriously. He’s clearly trying to be funny and very Alpha-y, but his Omeganess can’t help but show through. The filth, the lameness, the absolute loserishness of it is too much to bear. This guy is like a super disgusting version of Russell Brand (who is already pretty disgusting to begin with). Can you imagine the smell when he takes off his pan
Oh God. Sorry. Seriously, I am sitting at my kitchen table, and my son is here cracking up, and tears are streaming down my cheeks because that last olfactory suggestion triggered my gag reflex and I couldn’t stop for about three minutes. You know, this guy’s not that bad looking; if he took a bath, cut that disgusting hair, and GOT A LIFE he wouldn’t even need Game. He’s all about maintaining the upper hand, which might not be so bad if his fingernails were clean. He’s got other videos on YouTube as well, all equally mortifying. Now I see that I never needed to worry; I feel 100% confident that not a single one of you would fall for this guy’s act. If you find him attractive, I don’t want to know. McLean’s Hospital here in Boston provides excellent psych evaluations, just in case.
In any case, in my comment over at Ferdie’s I suggested two sites that I think provide much better guidance on how to man up: The Art of Manliness (which I’ve plugged several times before), and What Would Don Draper Do? (#111 pretty much says it all). This particular dude might also want to check out Wrong Planet for finding more effective ways of coping with his Asperger’s.
Related posts:
Susan,
most girls Roissy et al. bed are sluts. I mean, real sluts. If they represent the average, then we're in trouble. Mystery is so ridiculous looking that any so-so regular girl with one ounce of self esteem would laugh at him.
Maybe I'm getting old, but I found bblove a bit vulgar. If my GF would post a pic with socks and lingerie like that, it'd be Arrivederci Bella. (she is a 7)
Guys , I guess you have to look for a fiancee in a church in rural Oklahoma.
Mystery, with those hats? I cannot even begin to comprehend what woman would find him appealing. My son tells me he was a 26 year-old virgin with zero social skills who developed Game to finally get laid. Game strategy is effective, but as you say, who on earth are the women who go for this stuff? It's a tragedy, these women. They seem like lost souls to me, except that they don't seem to want to be found. Still, I cannot imagine what they think when they look in the mirror after spending the night with one of these manipulative idiots.
Re bblove, those pics are not of her. They're of models, fashion shoots, etc. She's quite modest in her own presentation, professional photo shoots notwithstanding. If I were a man I would be very much in love with Monsieur Rick, I mean bblove.
I could have gone another millennium w/o seeing that vid. Seriously. Bad. Sheeet. Some items that popped out at me thinking (ever so briefly) about it:
1.) No, it's not worth telling him to shower & shave and walk backwards into rooms. It won't help.
2.) Props for the sartorial splendor alone, dude!
3.) Strangely enough I've got a larger divot in my mattress, and from doing the same vintage chicks too! Go figure…
4.) I had more dress up clothes as a teen. Tell mommy that you need some. Seriously. Now. Do it!
5.) Yeah, when I lived in a basement apartment, the Master bedroom was above me too! (But I had a full kitchen & bath & a separate entrance too).
6.) The 'filthy' ill kempt Jesus look went out long ago. Dude, have you ever seen a non pristine looking icon? (Well besides the bleeding & all). Word!
7.) Putting the Pathology back into Pathetic since??
8.) Dude, the tests came back and the 22 bug bombs they let off in your room while you were out? Well, it's not been enough. You'll have to be Professionally deloused. Then & only then will the Vet agree to finally test you for all those STD's, STI's & itchy rashes you've been complaining about for the past few months. And yeah, the dog's flea dip is in the package deal, just like last time…
9.) Dude, you're 'sculpture' teacher has a new batch of 'objects' for you to dig into! They're Here: http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/cloaca...
10.) Love may mean never having to say 'I'm sorry', but Being pretty damn sorry all the time? A priceless addition to the repertoire of the modern PUA!!
Cheers, 'VJ'
I stand corrected. Anyways, this brings to mind the issue of girls' narcissistic blogs (not like yours, which has a theme), with pictures and tales of how great they are. Even escort girls have them, not professional ones, but personal ones. They are just so fantastic that they must show the world.
What crazy guy would committ to such attention whores?
A good example of a smart girls' blog, with eventual pictures, but which says nothing bad of the girl is Reflectionof.me
Rule #1: never say you are beautiful, let others tell you. And yes, I am a bit in love with Clementine.
Haha, I know, watching that was a tough experience. I'd assumed this guy, elder statesman that he is, would have climbed out of his loserness at least in terms of his appearance. What woman in her right mind would hit that? I have never met any woman so desperate. I'd choose abstinence. Or as my daughter would say, he does not pass my nuclear winter test. If he and I were the only two human beings left on earth, I would let the human race die out.
There are lots of blogs by women that I enjoy that are like personal journals, rather than having a theme like mine. I don't think it's any more narcissistic than posting photos on Facebook. It's a creative outlet, and the numbers speak for themselves. Some of these blogs get a lot of traffic. bblove is a very interesting woman, and I enjoy hearing what she thinks. She has a narrative, and I'm interested in it.
That was horrifying.
Haha, straight to the point, as always! Yeah, I'm so glad you think so too. After I wrote this I thought, “Is it just me? Am I being too hard on this guy?” But then I remembered some of the things he says about women (you don't even want to know), and I figured, nah, he's fair game. And so, so gross.
I'm amazed! The credits+bloopers part lasted almost as long as the actual video. Maybe I didn't get it right, because its almost midnight around here and I'm tired. But I fear that if I watch it again I'm gonna have nightmares, haha! I've never liked guys with long hair, specially if they have a ponytail. But I never figured out why until now!
“If a guy insults or “negs” you, tells you your friend is hot, that you’re going home with him, that he’s going to fuck you silly, you bitch, you know you’ve met a Pickup Artist.”
Or you've met a natural who's been swooping girls since puberty. There's no difference between a skilled PUA and a natural player.
“Don’t be distracted by his political ramblings — this guy wishes women didn’t have the right to vote.”
Unfair. I don't think men should be able to vote either. I'm an Equal Opportunity Disenfranchiser.
“Anyway, I’m checking his cited sources and I see he’s a big fan of Roosh, who is apparently some kind of elder statesmen in the “Seduction Community.””
Roosh is not affiliated with the seduction community. None of the bloggers I read are part of the seduction community. Come to think of it, only one of the sources I listed (Neil Strauss) is from the seduction community. And who can't respect a guy like Roosh? He's done what only a handful of men can and ever will do – ditch the 9-to-5 life to follow his dreams.
“At first I thought this was a kind of Onion-style spoof, but this guy takes himself waaaayyy too seriously.”
You're rather gullible if you took that video seriously. Roosh's style of humor is very dry and deadpan. I reviewed both of his books, so I ought to know.
“He’s clearly trying to be funny and very Alpha-y, but his Omeganess can’t help but show through.”
Technically, since he gets laid all the time, he IS an alpha.
“You know, this guy’s not that bad looking; if he took a bath, cut that disgusting hair, and GOT A LIFE he wouldn’t even need Game.”
You missed the point, Susan. Roosh didn't quit his job, grow out his hair, or do any of the other stuff until well after he had perfected his game. In fact, in his first book, he wrote that the worst slump he had ever experienced after getting into the game was paradoxically when he had everything going for him – he was bartending part-time, owned a motorcycle, had a nice house, and worked as a club DJ. Why should he cut his hair or do anything else if he doesn't need to?
Or, if you prefer, think of what Roosh is doing in that video as the equivalent of a billionaire lighting his cigars with $100 bills – “Ha ha, I look like a freak and live in my dad's basement, and I STILL get laid more then 95 percent of guys out there!” THAT is the power of game.
Of course having a blog is narcissistic – it's writing about yourself, but is it any more narcissistic then developing “game”?
I'd rather be reading blogs that are about “me me me” in hopes that another “me me me” can relate than go to a bar and meet some “me me me” guy who wants to make some poor girl feel like crappy so she'll sleep with him him him and where the sex will be all him him him. At least in a narcissistic blog has the hope of building a community and relationships. The similarity is that apparently guys with good game don't need to shower and neither do bloggers…I mean, I do.
Haha, morning glory, hope your sleep wasn't too disturbed. I promise never to inflict such grossness on you again!
So glad you dropped the Mrs. Walsh. Wrong prefix, and I prefer Susan.
1. A natural player delivers his technique naturally. Not like a social misfit who has been “enabled” by the homosocial online support of the Game community. And a natural player would never use these lines. They are so extreme as to be pure caricature, and the only women who would respond to them are bottom-dwellers, or Omega women, if you will. Those are not my readers.
2. You want to blame feminism for the lousy state of your love life? Go right ahead. How's that workin' for ya? And yes, I said love life. Maybe you have a sex life, though I doubt it. But dude, you travel this path and you will never find love in this life. It's emotional celibacy. Don't tell me you don't want love, because it's a lie. You talk a good game, but you're headed for the dust heap, full of lonely middle aged losers who never figured out how to man up.
1. News flash: A natural player can be identified by his good looks and other natural attractive attributes. He delivers his lines with ease, and they're generally a lot more subtle than this drivel. He does not need to hit women over the head to get their attention. A “skilled” PUA can be immediately identified by his physical shortcomings – obesity seems a particularly common problem in your world. Only the most drastic tactics are effective in bagging the stupid and dirty girls you specialize in.
2. Please. Feminism is your F word. Fine. How's that workin' for ya? That genie's never going back into the bottle. I never needed a high earner, because I was a high earner. Surprise, surprise, I married a high earner. Beta with Balls, and I couldn't be happier.
3. If your lot doesn't identify with the seduction community then why do you all worship that sicko with the weird hats? Mystery, I think his name is? Roissy has him on a pedestal. He invented Game to overcome his Asperger's and I give him credit. But no woman who isn't filled with self-loathing ever fell for his crap. Neil Strauss, a typically smart but ugly PUA, found the life pitiful and empty in the end. It's OK for a year or two, but after that, dude, you're going to need a new religion.
4. Ditching the 9 to 5 to follow your dreams? Roosh looks more like a homeless loser. No 9 to 5 for him. They must really miss him at Kinko's.
5. Oh, I know Roosh was aiming for wry deadpan. FAIL. His desperate need to come across as cool spoiled the whole effect. He can't help reveling in his own imagined Alphaness. And the squalor he's so proud of is disgusting. As is he.
6. If Roosh is getting laid all the time, he's feasting on dregs, and he's hanging out in STD playgrounds. He may be bagging 2s on a regular basis – there's no doubt in my mind his black book does indeed include a few undiscriminating grandmas. He's just too physically repulsive to have any hope of appealing to any woman with options. Personally, I suspect Roosh is a hoax. I suspect most of you get no poon at all. You tell yourselves you don't want the Alpha rejects, but women don't want Alpha wannabes. We want men who have real confidence, not manufactured.
7. Wait. Bartending, owning a motorcycle and working as a club DJ – that's the 9 to 5 he left? You call that success? Well, that says it all. That is the life of a LOSER. Give me an ugly surgeon anyday! Good God, how can you guys worry about losing all your assets in no-fault divorce when you don't have any assets? That's hilarious!
OK, I'm done. Like I said in my post, I had an image of you guys that went up in flames when I watched that video. If he is high status in your world, I don't need to engage. This is not a pool my readers are even dipping their toes into.
Well said, Decoybetty! I might remind you that you scored very low on the Narcissist quiz a while back, so there. My blog has a “theme,” yes, but there's plenty of self-indulgent me, me, me on it as well. And my Narcissist score was, um, rather high. I make no apologies.
When evaluating what these guys have to say, you would do well to separate the message from the messenger. Also, it's entirely possible for someone to be repulsive or a jackass but still have interesting or valid observations about some things, while being entirely off base on others. I know you already realize this, but it's difficult to keep in mind when faced with someone you find repulsive or infuriating, especially when discussing these types of issues (which, almost by default, become somewhat personal).
I agree about separating the message from the messenger. Otherwise, I'd hate Woody Allen and Picasso, or any other artist who may have behaved badly. But I don't, I believe the work stands on its own.
Truth can be spoken by anyone, including Roosh. The problem is that his own lack of presentability directly refutes his claims that he is having sex with 9s and 10s frequently. It's just not plausible. The woman featured at the top of this post would fail to notice his existence at the very least, would probably be repelled by him, not because he is ugly, skinny, whatever, but because he is arrogant despite the fact that he is filthy and broke. Roosh is treated like a god among PUAs. And it turns out he is just a goat. Permit me to doubt his authority.
Wasn't speaking specifically of Roosh – I doubt he is the best example. I'm no PUA or practitioner of “game” – the word sounds lame, but there is no alternative, I guess. But I've read a fair amount on it lately as a matter of intellectual curiosity. From what little I've seen of Roosh on the net, he strikes me as someone who (i) had a good job in a lab or something like that after college and got NONE, (ii) worked on “game” to change that, (iii) started gettin some (maybe a lot) and had some epiphany that he would drop out and chase tail full time, (iv) found that sex with really hot women wasn't really much better than sex with 5s and 6s, (v) found that, with his “game” and enough (i.e., many) approaches, he could keep getting some action with 5s and 6s (and the occasional octogenarian, just for the heck of it) without making any effort whatsoever to appear presentable and, in fact, while appearing (actually being?) filthy and broke. So, he stopped caring about doing anything but the bare minimum. In this process he also seems to have developed a very unhealthy disdain for the women he's getting. Not a life to which most would aspire. As a guy, it makes me worry about how much I might let myself go if I had no need to remain presentable either to impress or remain attractive to women (i.e., my wife) or to maintain a career to support my family in the lifestyle to which they've grown accustomed.
But Roosh letting himself go jut because he can (or to prove he can) doesn't mean that many of the theories of attraction in “game” aren't valid or won't work with high quality women. Evolution has likely saddled them with the same subconscious attraction switches as other women (much like “high quality men” don't escape being irrationally turned by certain physical characteristics). In some cases, these switches seem to make them fall for A-holes BECAUSE they are A-holes, rather than in spite of it. If normal, decent women of high quality were immune to all this, there would not be such a market for books telling them how to stop falling for the wrong guys. Ironically, the very post you linked at the beginning of this blog entry seems to support my point. Take this quote from her:
“Insecure men like to try and put you in your place. It’s the fucking Pickup Artist mentality that hot women are used to being treated like goddesses, so treat them like crap and you’ll have the upper hand. One guy, who was horrid to me, told me, 'How does it feel knowing that no matter what you accomplish in your life, you’ll always be just someone’s trophy wife.' Another guy told me, the first night he met me: 'I bet no one’s ever told you no. I like to shoot down girls who’ve never heard no.” Ridiculous.
And yet it’s interesting that both those guys ended up dating me.'
With all due respect to her, no, I don't think it's terribly interesting that they ended up wanting to date her. This was probably their strategy to get her to date them (especially the second guy who said this on first meeting). So, isn't it much more interesting that she ended up agreeing to date them? On its face, it would seem to validate the PUA strategies (“neg”, “disqualify”, “give impression of high value”, “make her qualify herself”, etc.). It sure came across that way to me. So, while she might not find herself attracted to Roosh in particular, she does in fact seem to like (at least at a subconscious level) some of the less admirable game tactics.
I guess my point is that the fact that guys like Roosh go off the deep end once they get immersed in this and, perhaps, get too good at it for their own good, doesn't mean it doesn't work much of the time. And, frankly, the theories seem to comport with a lot of what I've seen over the years, though I was too dumb or blind to catch on when I was young and single. I will make sure my sons are not as uneducated. I don't want them to be a-holes, but I would like to give them the ability to maximize their chances with those women they like most.
I also think you've gone overboard a little bit on this “elder statesmen” stuff. Mostly it just looks to be a bunch of guys sharing information, and some are perceived as having more to share than others. But, not surprisingly, a few get carried away with their admiration. Also, I haven't paid enough attention, but I question whether their perceptions of Roosh's expertise are accurate. Based on what little I've read from him, he seems to to rack up numbers by approaching (with absolutely no fear or approach anxiety) a huge number of women. His very low opinion of women seems to have freed him from any approach anxiety whatsoever. But I'm not sure his percentage of successful approaches, or “hit rate”, should justify the perception of him. Maybe I have the wrong impression.
I have a feeling I'm gonna wish I had an edit button to reorganize this rambling mess after I post it, but oh well.
Passer By, no worries on the editing front – I think you make your points pretty clearly. BTW, I'm sorry your post got buried for a while – it got caught by my spam filter, and I didn't realize.
Anyway, that's an interesting backstory on Roosh. I never got that far myself. Look, I don't have a problem with guys getting together and discussing how to get laid. It makes a lot of sense, and Game techniques are effective. Some of them are even legit; I don't have a problem with all of it. What I do have a problem with is that much of the strategy seems predicated on deceit. It's all mind games, very manipulative. It doesn't absolve these ridiculously idiotic women from making stupid choices, but it's not a level playing field either. Then again, you'll probably say that women play more mind games than anyone.
The truth is, eagerness kills interest. We're less inclined to join clubs that want us as members. Holding back, not showing your hand, is good strategy. I agree that your sons will benefit from understanding that. I've always been drawn to earnest guys, but many women aren't, and it makes sense for men to have a toolkit. Same goes for women.
Many of the PUA sites are up to their ears in political argument as well. A favorite theme of course, is that Feminism is evil and responsible for most of what is wrong in this country. Most of these guys blame suffrage for starting the whole disastrous collapse of American culture. They openly state that the only good place for a woman is on her knees in front of them.
The tone also is extremely snarky. Check out this link from the most successful Game blogger. He's very smart, I wouldn't tangle with him willingly.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/is-lady-...
Yikes. Civil discourse just isn't possible. I'm moving on. Truth is, my readers are not the women hanging out in bars LOOKING for guys to pump and dump them. It happens, but if their radar detects up front they're dealing with a total asshole, they're not gonna fall for the bait (unless he's super hot, which of course, PUAs aren't, by definition). I've shared plenty about what these douches are up to. There's really nothing more to be said.
You won't believe some of the crap I've gotten from Game/PUA guys …
My favorite: A guy approached my girlfriend and me at a sports bar and told us to smell both his wrists and tell him which cologne we liked better. As if he'd really be wearing two different colognes. I said no thanks, but he would not leave. So finally I told him we thought that approach was incredibly lame, and he replies, “You have something in your teeth.” Pathetic. You're shot down so you're going to try and make ME feel stupid? Get the F away from me.
I mean, the approach is completely rude, pathetic even — but hilarious in a way, because it's so transparent.
Writing on this now … you'll laugh.
Yay, can't wait. What's really surprised me is the nature of the online “seduction community” – they are rabidly religious about Game. But I think we're talking about the lamest guys in the world, basically. One guy was happy to defend Game saying until he tried it he had never kissed a girl, but since using Game in the last 6 weeks he has kissed 20 girls. I got the impression he just goes up to women in bars and shoves his tongue down their throats. He's not concerned about whether they're kissing him back. It's incredibly obnoxious, but also sad. If that were my son, I'd be devastated.
Susan,
I think one problem you have is letting your opinions about the people (PUA's like Roissy or Roosh) affect your views of some of their messages. The ad hominems on Roosh really detract from your arguments. While he doesn't sound like a guy I'd be friends with, some of his actions (leaving his job and the like) took guts. I might think he did a dumb thing, but I can admire the courage behind it. I might disagree with his views and actions, but I see some of what he says with enough dispassion to see some of the truths behind it (same with Roissy).
Why is that of any interest to me? Well, I have a younger brother who is a natural: I'd describe him as a mix of Roissy and Roosh, with the same type of beliefs. When I was in grad school, and he went to college, his “natural game” really flourished, and everytime I'd come home for holidays to visit, it was a virtual United Nations of beautiful women he'd bring home to the family table. And no, they weren't “loser” or “stupid” girls, but intelligent, pretty, college-educated women. After college, he ditched the 9-to-5 thing and did a lot of what Roosh did (travel, bum around), and when I'd visit him, he was still the same player, dating a variety of women. A few of the more self-aware ones would break up with him when he refused to commit, but most seemed to believe they could change him. We'd have good natured arguments (he is my brother, after all) over a lot of his beliefs, which I saw as quite misogynistic, but he'd kid me that all my pro-women beliefs still left me dateless at the dinner table.
I, on the other hand, wasn't the type for the hookup thing. Some of my close friends found their eventual spouses in college and grad school, but I didn't have the same results and the women I asked out didn't reciprocate, were interested in more alpha-like guys or were more interested in pursuing their careers than a relationship. Later, in the working world, it was a similar scene, if more difficult since I worked in a heavily male-oriented field. I did manage to travel to a lot of wonderful and unique places, with friends, but I also wished I'd have had someone to share some of those travels with who wasn't just friends.
As I approached my thirties, I wanted to take stock of things. Some of my older women friends gave me advice similar to some of what you seem to say. They told me that after a while, women outgrew their taste for cads, and they'd look for someone like me. I didn't care to be someone's second choice after they spent their 20's hooking up. One woman I dated was attractive and intelligent, but turned out to be 8 years older than myself, and while she hadn't had quite as wild a time in her earlier days as some other people, there were still too many cads and hanger on ex-bf's for my tastes.
I decided that I needed to learn from those who had experienced success (namely, my brother). Since I wasn't interested in simple hookups, I tailored the lessons to my own situation. I became more aggressive, choosy, confident. I didn't have my brother's natural ability, but I had my own charms. I began seeing success, and I focused on certain qualities, like how the person related to their family, how “wild” their pasts had been, and how focused they were on their career. And I wound up finding someone who fit my criteria, who I dated for couple of years, and then married.
I came upon the PUA sites somewhat indirectly, and I read some, like Roissy's. And while there is a lot of hyperbole, and a lot of stuff I don't always agree with, there were some things therein that had eerie similarities with what I'd seen and done. A lot of Roissy's commentary on Long-term-relationship game fit closely to the path to my own marriage, and a lot of “game” fit quite closely with what my own brother did.
So I don't think you should be as dismissive of this. There are some truths in what they say, some that may not be easy to accept, mixed in with a lot of chaff. But it's good to know what's out there so one can better face the world.
Hi ExNewYorker, nice to meet you and thank you for your AWESOME comment! I will try to respond coherently, it's been a rather long week. First, I want to say that I am not opposed to the principles behind Game – it's essentially a structured approach for overcoming anxiety, a form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. That is clearly how you approached it – you developed the skills you needed to attract a life partner, with qualities you respect and admire. How could anyone object? I wish all men (and women) could be choosy and confident. It's fantastic that you were able to make those changes in your behavior, and changed your life in the process.
Another good thing about Game techniques is that they address to the conditions of the marketplace. Women are indeed drawn to confident, aggressive men. Adopting that attitude is smart because it makes you a rarer commodity, thereby increasing your mating value.
I'm on board with all of this, and I write frequently in these terms on my own blog. I encourage women to be independent rather than needy; selective rather than passive, and to enter into relationships with men who demonstrate the qualities they are seeking in a partner. In addition, I hear from lots of guy readers, and know quite a few young men through my own kids, who I observe are practicing Game. A young woman I know well was involved with a guy who was clearly employing Game strategy. He was a lot less attractive than her, small and emo, but quite a talented musician. She was crazy about him, and part of it was that he was always keeping her guessing. He was very good at that. The problem was, he couldn't stop. He couldn't trust what she felt for him, because he knew he'd been using tactics to maintain her interest. There was no way for them to move into any kind of loving relationship. He had moments where he openly adored her, followed by days of anger that she had somehow gotten the upper hand. He painted himself into a corner, because he went too far with it.
That's the problem I have with nearly every online PUA blog or site I have found. They're extreme. These communities have grown into self-congratulatory, snide, misogynistic forums where the tone is set by the blogger and magnified by the commenters. Roissy does have some interesting posts about how to talk to women, using stories from his own life. Compelling stuff. Then the next post revels in how he made a woman wince with pain during anal sex. Or how he's glad that people are getting HPV from oral sex, because now he has another good reason why he never goes down. Or a guide on dealing with a woman's tears: give a platonic hug, do not say a word, walk away and pour yourself a drink. Roosh is the same. When a woman asks about your past, lie, lie, lie. Don't ever fall in love.
The most visible ambassadors for Game have led God knows how many thousands of men into tactics and behaviors that demean and degrade women. Roissy states that some of the best sex he's ever had has been with girls he utterly degraded. Young men are taking all of that to heart. In their desperation to move from beta to alpha (a genetic impossibility) they act like the biggest assholes imaginable. And they do get women. I maintain that those women falling for PUA crap in bars are promiscuous and lack self-respect.
Your brother was different, because he was a natural. Women at school were drawn to him when he was being himself. Perhaps he worked hard to make them feel badly about themselves. That can work too. It's certainly true that women often want to reform the bad boy, want to be the first and only girl who can make a guy commit. It happens, but it's rare. It's really just the same as a guy wanting to get a woman who he knows is way out of his league. Women are drawn to men who are out of their emotional league, if you will.
I initially approached all of this with an open mind, and I found constructive dialog with these male writers impossible. In fact, they used Game to put me in my place, deriding me for revealing a woman's inferior mind. There is a lot of chest beating, and self-congratulation among these guys. It angers them that I would counsel women to avoid them, and be wary of their shtick. They say it's women who are making the bad choices, but they desperately need for women to maintain that low self-esteem for their techniques to work.Finally, most of these blogs are very political as well, blaming women for most of what is wrong in the country. There's no way to reason with these people!
Anyway, imagine my shock when I saw that Roosh video. Because he is a guru, claiming to bang hot bitches right and left, his appearance and social skills are relevant. And they belie his claims, in my opinion. His Thanksgiving table is not populated by a veritable UN of beautiful women. He gets respect for leaving the 9 to 5, but his disciple tells me that he left part-time bartending, DJing and riding his motorcyle. Again, this guy is not what he seems. He's a loser claiming victory. I wonder, in fact, whether he is a complete fraud, but I don't really care. Ultimately, my only concern for my women readers is that they are informed and warned. These men are predators. Game tactics permeate the hookup culture, and women are largely unaware of it until they encounter it directly. When some guy approaches a woman in a bar to tell her that her friend is hotter than her, or that she's unnattractive in some other way, I hope she'll have the self-respect to walk away.
Susan,
I can't totally disagree about some of the hyperbole and even outright misogyny on some of the PUA sites. As a guy, who grew up in an all boy household, and working in a guy-dominated field, I tend to filter out a lot of the “BS” and hyperbole. If one isn't used to hearing those sort of sentiments, I can imagine it would seem somewhat shocking. And for many of the people on those sites, no amount of discussion or evidence is going to change their minds.
However, that being said, I do still find some useful information, particularly related to having a certain self-confidence, even cockiness, that is a useful skill, not just for dating. I guess I must also have enough time on my hands to skip the chaff, plus some of the stories are genuinely humorous. They remind me of some of the off-color tales my brother might have told me…in which I might mostly disapprove of his behavior, but at the same time, I understood it was part of what made him charming.
At some level, men like my brother are indeed predatory, but unfortunately, many of the women they prey upon don't particularly care to be warned against them, and often, they don't learn from the drama that ensues. If your advice helps some of them avoid those situations, more power to you, but I guess I'm cynical enough to think you're swimming against the current.
I believe that I can't make any difference at all with the vast majority of women. However, I started blogging because I made a difference in the lives and behavior of young women I knew by giving them what was basically common sense advice. In high school and college, they had many experiences that made them feel terrible afterwards. They still have some experiences that are doomed to make them feel crappy later, but they have gotten better about standing up and saying what they want. What they will and will not tolerate. If your brother fell for a girl who wouldn't put up with his crap, he would probably change his act to get her, at least for a while. Because men don't want relationships with women who have had sex with a great many people, women who are more selective about who they have sex with wind up with a marketplace advantage. Of course, this can mean a long dry spell for a woman, and they certainly do fall off the wagon.
I'll never be able to compete with the Game sites. I'm just offering support for the women who come find me and want help solving a problem. I'm trying to make a small difference on the margins. And I am, I think.
Susan,
You remind me of some my aunts growing up. A lot of good advice, but we often didn't listen to it, particularly my female cousins, yet our aunts were usually right. And some of us did listen, at least to some of the lessons
Coincidentally, in response your comment, my brother did once fall really deeply in love with one woman (and even now, he thinks of her fondly), and for short time, he altered some of his regular behavior. However, a leopard doesn't change his spots, and he wound up cheating on her. And unlike a lot of his conquests, this one woman immediately left him, because she could never trust him again. I think she saw what he was and knew there was no changing it.
It's good to see some people like you out on the internets…a small difference is better than none.
Thanks ExNewYorker, I appreciate your comments. Funny you should mention your aunts, because the young women I know personally call me Aunt Sue. Six of them are coming for brunch on Sunday, and it will be great to catch up and hear some stories face to face! It will be all laughing and having fun, but afterwards at least three of them will email or call me and ask for real help with a real problem. It's the same every time.
One final observation about you and your bro: You began by describing him as a natural, and you envied his success with women. He was great at getting laid! Today? You are happily married and he has never been able to sustain a relationship. My guess is that he envies you now. Game is great for getting laid, and as you say, it's helpful as a way to shift one's attitude and way of behaving to be more successful. But it sounds to me like you're the natural at relationships. And women want relationships. The woman who left your brother was smart, I would have given her major props!
Wow. That's awesome. So, let me get this straight–because this dude gets a bunch of ass from barely literate whores without an ounce of self-esteem THIS makes him an Alpha? Well, ummm…sorry man, but uh, an Alpha would also be hella successful because of his innate charisma. He damned sure wouldn't be living in his parents' basement eschewing the “9-5.”
Best line of the video “I don't really go to fancy clubs because I can't really afford it right now.” Yeah… If you can't afford to buy me a drink, I can't afford to waste more than 10 seconds of my precious time rejecting you. Not only is this guy a tool, anything with a penis who idolizes him and his ilk are even bigger tools.
We really need to create anti-douchebag legislation. This shit is getting out of hand. I swear I'm going to just start writing dudes tickets when they act like this.
Hahahaha, thank you. I am up to my eyeballs in debates with men who are bitter because they don't get laid, and admire this dude. I love the idea of writing tickets, haha. It would be great to print some up and hand them out at bars! Citizens' arrests for douchebaggery. I hate ragging on women, but you said it – the women falling for this stuff have got to be bottom dwellers. It just boggles the mind that this guy would have luck with anyone at all.
Wow. That's awesome. So, let me get this straight–because this dude gets a bunch of ass from barely literate whores without an ounce of self-esteem THIS makes him an Alpha? Well, ummm…sorry man, but uh, an Alpha would also be hella successful because of his innate charisma. He damned sure wouldn't be living in his parents' basement eschewing the “9-5.”
Best line of the video “I don't really go to fancy clubs because I can't really afford it right now.” Yeah… If you can't afford to buy me a drink, I can't afford to waste more than 10 seconds of my precious time rejecting you. Not only is this guy a tool, anything with a penis who idolizes him and his ilk are even bigger tools.
We really need to create anti-douchebag legislation. This shit is getting out of hand. I swear I'm going to just start writing dudes tickets when they act like this.
Hahahaha, thank you. I am up to my eyeballs in debates with men who are bitter because they don't get laid, and admire this dude. I love the idea of writing tickets, haha. It would be great to print some up and hand them out at bars! Citizens' arrests for douchebaggery. I hate ragging on women, but you said it – the women falling for this stuff have got to be bottom dwellers. It just boggles the mind that this guy would have luck with anyone at all.
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