Damn, I knew I shouldn’t have raised the spectre of Sex-Positive Feminists in my post yesterday. It was a jinx, and this morning I woke up to an ABC news feature: Sexual Hook Ups Damned By Chastity Groups, Hailed By New Feminists It’s about how students at Harvard are once again hotly debating the issue. Do I have to align myself with one of these two groups? Because that’s like asking if I prefer vomit or poop.
I don’t think it matters what chastity groups or feminists think about hooking up. It only matters what you think about it, and whether it’s workin’ for ya. The whole clash between these constituencies can be summed up as follows:
Chastity Groups: Don’t hook up! You’re objectifying and degrading women!
New Feminists: Hook up! You owe it to yourselves and women everywhere to claim the male role in the stud/slut sexual double standard!
Regular readers will not be surprised to learn that I believe the following about hooking up:
1. It’s the primary path to relationships, especially in college. Like it or not, it’s the culture, and it’s not changing anytime soon. The best thing you can do is be smart about how, where, when, why and with whom.
2. Men have a low threshold for seeking sex. Translation: They don’t need to know a partner well or for long to enjoy sex; even a stranger is usually fine. In practical terms, this means that men would be happy hooking up with no strings forever, or at least for a very long time.
3. Women throughout history have nearly invariably refused anonymous encounters, preferring some degree of commitment. Until now. However, it remains true that most women are not cut out for sustained casual sexual relationships. Our hormones ensure that we bond with sexual partners.
True Love Revolution is a pro-abstinence club at Harvard. A couple of years ago, the New York Times ran a profile of the group, which had royally pissed off some students when they sent out 800 valentines with the slogan Why wait? Because you’re worth it. Some claimed the valentines were specifically anti-feminist. The co-founders of the group were a couple who met at a Catholic retreat, and though they intended to marry, they decided to abstain from sex until then. The two say their choice was not a religious one:
To make their argument more palatable, they never mention God when describing their reasons for waiting; instead, they rely on words like “dignity,” “self-respect” and “empowerment.”
Empowerment? How is not having sex empowering?
Rachel Wagley is the current co-President of TLR:
A popular thing to say among this intellectual crowd, in the ivies and in feminism in general, is that sex is empowering and a real woman uses her sexuality in any way she pleases. It’s blatantly false and a lie that this culture tells to girls for their own benefit.
Silpa Kovvali, a computer-science major, spoke to ABC News after publishing an opposing editorial in the Harvard Crimson:
To say that a consensual sexual act is degrading to you is the complete opposite of feminism. For women to take control of the sex act can be an incredibly empowering experience.
Again with the empowerment!
Stanford sociology professor Paula England weighs in:
There’s a lot of degrading treatment of some women and it is empoweringly free for other women.
“Empoweringly free.” Oy.
England goes on to say that “equal opportunity” thinking by feminists came to the workplace but never to sex:
First, men initiate more of the interaction, especially the sexual action,” she wrote. “Second, men have orgasms more frequently than women. Men’s sexual pleasure seems to be prioritized. Third, a sexual double standard persists in which women are more at risk than men of getting a bad reputation for hooking up with multiple partners.
Duh.
If taking control of the sex act is empowering, wouldn’t refusing the sex act then be part of that? By that logic, abstaining from sex should be as empowering as any other sexual choice, no?
What does it mean to be empowered by sex?
The word empower originated in the 1600s and meant: to enable or permit. The word was first politicized during the Civil Rights movement, then by the Women’s Movement. It was essentially a marketing tool for change, designed to convince constituents that they would gain greater control over their destinies if they bought in. Language usage experts dislike the pop psychology application of the word, feeling that it is notoriously innacurate when politicized.
You think?
Interestingly, synonyms include:
- Validate
- Recommend
- Encourage
- Indulge
In this case, then, True Love Revolution is saying that not having sex validates not having sex. Not having sex encourages not having sex. In other words, it is empowering to abstain from sex because it makes you more entrenched in your own decision to abstain from sex.
In the case of the New Feminists, we might say that any form of consensual sex recommends consensual sex. Or that hooking up indulges young people in hooking up. Again, being empowered to do things “my way” further proves the justice of my cause.
An individual’s decisions around sex will reflect his or her family and cultural background, gender, past sexual experiences and many other factors. There is no absolute right or wrong. You should do whatever feels right (not necessarily what feels good) for you.
Whatever choice you make at any given point in time, it is a valid choice.
I recommend that you give all of your sexual experiences careful thought, and
I encourage you to explore your sexuality with a person who respects and cares for you.
However, we will all be tempted to indulge from time to time, and that can be fun too.
(I think I just invented the blogging pun, sorry.)
{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
I think you have just scratched the surface of a much deeper problem within western societies: Political philosophy permeates every aspect of our culture. All for the love of power that the leaders who promote their particular brand of politics. Whether or not this is true, the people who promote abstinence will be branded as right-wing fundies. And those who promote a society that attaches an egalitarian moral weight (hormones or no) to legal sexual behavior are going to be branded as sexually deviant leftists. This is despite the fact that I can see people of either political stripe getting behind either viewpoint, or some view that falls in between.
We are not allowed to simply have our own views and be ourselves. We can attempt it, but in so doing we have to constantly justify and defend our views against people who will try to pigeonhole us into whichever extreme would best suit their political views at the moment.
My ultimate question is, why is this even an issue for society at large? What business is it of anyone (other than the partners involved) what sexual behavior an individual does or does not engage in outside of the public square? Why does it matter who eats what? Who drinks what?
Why is there even a debate? Why all the political and social pressure regarding behaviors that have nothing to do with an individual's capacity to study, learn, work, etc..? What does some college coed's sex life, or lack thereof, have to do with trade policies, national defense, or any of the other roles of government as defined in the constitution?
Discussions about sexuality should be politics free. Something more akin to philosophical debates or religious discussions. Sexual relationships are complex enough without the added crap from special interest groups trying to drum up support for their pet political projects by demonizing the heavily generalized perceptions of the other side. Screaming that the other side is going to send me to abstinence camp if I don't vote democrat (or that if I do not vote republican then democrats will make prostitution 101 lab into a general requirement) is a very low way to try to get me to vote a specific way. Or not vote at all.
You don't wanna screw around?
Fine. Don't badger those who do.
And to make a silly rhyme,
The reverse should also be true.
Sorry for the rambling. The comments from both sides of that issue (and related social issues) just gets my dander up.
Screwtape, this is exactly right. Not only is political philosophy ubiquitous, but so is political correctness, its evil twin. I'm someone whose views fall uncomfortably in-between traditional party politics at times, and I can tell you it's not easy. I have ended dinner parties by disagreeing with those suffering from one sort of political derangement syndrome or another. I find myself defending certain stripes of feminism, while refuting others (this post is an example).
I also agree that one's sexuality is always personal, and should never be political. Unfortunately, gender politics becomes sexual politics frequently. The one area around sex that I find deeply troubling is the prevalence of sex throughout the media. But I don't think there's anything that can be done about it. The best we can do is provide a forum for conversation for those who want to share their views. Like you!
I like your silly rhyme.
The more anyone talks about empowerment, the more I am convinced they are angry and feel powerless. When I see a chubby, birkenstock-wearing feminist talking about the empowerment of female sexuality, I just have to laugh. That is a woman who WISHES she could control a man with sex. Ain't gonna happen. They sound just as pathetic as basement dwelling dudes who think that reading “The Game” will get them laid.
The feminist and sexual revolutions has been very good for attractive people, especially attractive men.
For low-status women, it has destroyed their chances of marriage.
For low-status men, it has destroyed their chances for sex.
Meanwhile, at the other end of town, hot girls cry over the hot guys that pump and dump them, refusing to commit.
The beat goes on…
Hi Rick, I agree. I think “empowerment” is becoming the last refuge of people who don't have anything meaningful to say. In the last 20 years I have encountered innumerable populations that feel they need to be empowered. I've hated this word all along, but this article put me over the edge, as you can see. Such nonsense!
It's interesting – I saw something on Roissy's blog at one point where he says that very attractive women also lose out in the modern sexual marketplace. Men wanting to score are more likely to go for the middling “sure thing.” So that means only very attractive men are getting ahead. Sucks!
Re hot girls crying over hot pump and dump guys, I'm working on that. I'm doing my best. Yup, the beat goes on.
Screwtape
you beat me to the keyboard.
Most sex “empowerment” talk is just social engineering marxism. The least part who is empowered is the individual.
Susan, I totally agree with the statement:
“It’s the primary path to relationships, especially in college. Like it or not, it’s the culture, and it’s not changing anytime soon. The best thing you can do is be smart about how, where, when, why and with whom.”
And as far as “empowerment” goes, I have always found “The Hunt” (the actual art precluding the hook up) far more empowering than the act of the hook up itself.
The act of the hook up only comes from the “empowerment” of getting in touch with your self, the real power, and whether you hook up or not is a personal decision or rather the consequence of your decisions.
But to GET to the hook up, that's you “empowering” yourself in self confidence to even get to that point.
That can't be all bad, can it?
I say that there's too much needless 'categorical thinking' going on here. It really should not be viewed as 'either/or', but perhaps more of a 'Both/And' situation here. We now know through various rigorous scientific studies undertaken during the last decade that pure ‘abstinence’ training or teachings Fail at what they’re actually supposed to be doing or promoting. It does not seem to inhibit much sex, among any of the groups subsequently studied. It does not lower either the exposure to disease or risk of pregnancy, nor significantly delay sexual involvement among teens or other groups. Even those ‘dedicated’ and ‘determined’ religious believers.
So More detailed knowledge & Accurate Scientific teachings about what’s going on with your own body and it’s likely reaction to such ‘encounters’? Probably a very good thing. And even most parents agree with this. Knowledge is power. More knowledge is most likely better in that it actively involves you in preventing ‘adverse outcomes’. ‘Runny sores’ on a partner? Probably not a good sign! Painful intercourse? Ditto! It allows you to better understand what’s going on in a more accurate context. Whereas the ‘abstinence only’ crowd would have you suffer in silence. Just like ‘olden times’, well during the Middle Ages, primarily.
So I suggest a ‘modest proposal’. That say for a short defined period of time, perhaps frosh year or slightly longer? All the gals should actively seek out all the shy but serious & intellectual dweebs, nerds & geeks that they can. And make it their mission to try and calmly seduce as many as possible. This may not get you the best sex of your lives, but it will be the most memorable perhaps for your partners. Due to their presumable sheer lack of experience they’ll typically be hugely more grateful, kinder & gentler about the entire process, and perhaps even serve as a decent ‘template’ for how more ‘compassionate couplings’ might occur. This might be recalled with some fond regards later when the gals are off trying to chase down the few real but sneeringly self involved ‘alphas’ & BMOC’s or all the ‘wanna bes’ PUA’s in their Jr & Senior years. They’ll know when they’re not being treated right. Even the nerds could woo better! (Eventually!)
Everyone comes out ahead here. The Dweebs & the nerds will always fondly regard ‘the miracles’ of their ‘firsts’, (or their most memorable & lovely of their young lives), and hence generate a tremendous amount of laudatory romantic art about them. Romantic poetry will be reborn, as it’ll have some reason to exist. Ditto for truly inspiring ‘sappy love songs’ that everyone might be able to follow along with & sing. Giving flowers to your romantic partners will return in vogue. Ditto for nice handwritten notes & romantic texts. Many seriously romantic films will also result. Porn usage will not plummet but go into a slow remission among the young & involved. Young women will know & recall with fondness what romance might feel like, even if it’s with someone that you well know might not last forever as a partner.
As everyone’s ‘first serious romantic stage’ is set, we’d have less resentment & recriminations and more hopeful expectations & interactions from all players involved. ‘No Billy, I can’t really go out with you this year. I know you want to, but Horace & Willard are my projects this semester, and well, I’m being kept pretty busy! And BTW? What the hell do you know of Shakespeare’s Sonnets?’ ‘Yeah mom, I’m doing well in school, but this weekend Suzie & I have a date! No, I’ll have to fit in the work for the Science Fair on Sunday, and perhaps one of the jocks might pick up the speed on some of the project? But no, I know I’ll have enough time to squeeze it in to my busy social schedule. Yeah, it’s a whole lot different than HS. I’ve got to get really good grades to stay on scholarship and help out Suzie & her suitemates with tutoring too. No mom they really don’t pay me enough, but it’s plenty indeed!’ The jocks/BMOCs & ‘Alphas’? They’d naturally have to learn to ‘play’ with folks their own age or Older. Thus perhaps finally gaining some limited insight into some aspects of maturity they missed earlier.
I know, all pretty hopeful, but oh so ever, Geesh Empowering too! Yeah there I said it. Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
Hey Gotvenus, thanks so much for leaving a comment! I agree that there is no better feeling than knowing you are 100% on top of your game. Feeling fabulous about yourself draws other people to you, and that is power. I do think the “with whom” part is the most important, though. Any woman who is willing to have sex, can have sex immediately. It's very easy to find a sexual partner. However, if you are looking to travel the path to a relationship, that's where the real challenge comes in. Exerting your personal power on a quality target and succeeding – not bad at all.
VJ, it's interesting that you start with a point about sex ed. I have found that once the word “abstinence” is uttered, most people go right to that context. However, I have always maintained that choosing not to have sex for personal reasons is a valid choice for the individual. Indeed, any other view is ludicrous. There is no larger issue re society and federal funding here (tho I agree with everything you said about Abstinence and sex ed. Doesn't work. Kids who have taken “the pledge” practice anal sex to get around the virginity question. FAIL.)
I am 100% on board with you about finding those shy betas on campus! And I think you underestimate those guys. I can guarantee that in the engineering school there are some attractive but lower testosterone really smart, nice boys. They'll never make moves, though. Girls would have to be the ones initiating, and it just ain't gonna happen. Once those boys mature fully, they'll become society's movers and shakers while Dufus Quarterback who never could make it academically will survive on memories of past glory.
One caveat to this plan: Beware the plain dude with 'tude. Many young women make the mistake of assuming that if they get involved with a guy with fewer options, he will be grateful and invested. Instead, he is determined to grab the opportunity to announce to the world that he is an Alpha after all, indulging in all the douchebaggery the role requires.
Yes, this is where the ‘both/and’ concept comes into play here. With ‘abstinence’ being mainly defined within the sex ed context, it really should be understood in a wider frame. No one should feel compelled to see or ‘have truck with’ anyone who a.) seeks to cause them harm or somehow consistently manages to do so via their foolish acts & choices and b.) seeks to constantly mainly ‘use’ them for their own selfish immediate gratification or ends. You really should be ‘abstinent’ to these players & ‘DB’s’ for as long as possible, and certainly only at your own discretion too. That’s natural a ‘self preservation’ adaptation and also a sure way to preserve more of your sanity for longer.
The issue with DB’s however is a universal one. Anyone might become one for almost any reason and at anytime, Self delusion among the principal of these evidently. So for those middling geeks who come to think all too highly of themselves and seek to take advantage of the ‘arrangement’ described herein? We’d have some ‘yellow’ caution flags or red penalty flags that would be posted on their FB (or similar) pages online. Anyone could check them out to see their updated relative relationship ready ‘status’ month to month. (They’d have a few weeks to perhaps ‘shape up’ after falling ‘off the wagon’ and into a ‘typical DB status’). Yes, this would involve some bureaucracy (like anything else) and there would be some possibility of appeals. The same would apply to the women too, BTW. To be judged by a panel of their peers, and mostly of the same sex, (say a 60-40 split). That would tend to keep more folks ‘honest’, but truth be told it would all probably break down quickly enough. More people would not agree about the ‘common good’, and most women would still want to chase the good/better looking/smelling ‘DB’s, and all too many dweebs might think & imagine that they can pull in super models, well just because of their bitching scores on WOW, & hawt ‘sunken chests’ & high quality chess/math gaming etc.
But bottom line? We've got to find better ways of making this all work for more folks & more 'normal folks' w/o spending perhaps about 2 decades of dating and finally 'meeting the one', (or exhausting all immediate alternatives and accepting what shows up mainly). This just 'ain't working right, it's dysfunctional and it's a silly & foolish waste of time. The perfect may not be possible as this is an ever moving trajectory. The 'good enough fit' might be possible to be 'solved' for many ages along the spectrum, as long as you're reasonably self aware and know what it is you want, desire & require. And not to mistake one for another. Or imagine that fantasy can be actually 'lived in' for long. Well without the long term help of plenty of pharmaceuticals! Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
How is not having sex, instead pursuing traditional and respectful dating and courtship, empowering? It's simple. A woman who is sexually selective is establishing that she has respect for herself and will only be intimate with a worthy man, while a woman who sleeps with men she wouldn't introduce to her parents is valuing herself at zero.
I don't believe everyone has to wait until marriage to have sex. On the other hand, the idea that women should dip into the rancid cesspool known as the “hookup culture” is just ridiculous. Hookup “culture”– a misnomer, since it's province of the unrefined and coarse– needs to die.
Hi cless, thanks for weighing in here.
“A woman who is sexually selective is establishing that she has respect for herself and will only be intimate with a worthy man”
I agree 100%. The difficulty arises in determining who is worthy. Of course there are many ways that men signal their intentions up front, but unfortunately there is a great deal of deceit used in seducing women for sex. That means that women should hold out until they can vouch for a man's true character. Easier said than done – women are guilty of wishful thinking oftentimes. Also, at very young ages (18-21), where NSA hooking up is most prevalent, the woman who is holding out for a worthy guy may well find herself a virgin at college graduation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (in fact I respect it tremendously), but the reality is that women want to have relationships, and keep at it in hopes of finding one.
As I stated at the top of this post, relationships in college almost always follow a hooking up period. Physical intimacy precedes emotional intimacy in the vast majority of cases. Telling women not to indulge won't work, it's just asking too much. Very few women would agree up front to four college years without guys. They're sexual, they get crushes, they're under enormous peer pressure. And they behave in unrefined and coarse ways sometimes.
I like your description of hookup culture – rancid cesspool is about right. I'd like nothing more than to see it die. I used to hope that would occur before my daughter got to college (she's now a junior), but now I'm hopeful that the pendulum will swing back before her daughter gets to college.
I see my job as pointing out to women how they will benefit by waiting. If a woman wants a relationship, she needs to be smart about her sexual behavior. No one woman can change the prevailing norms around sex in our society. But she can improve her decision-making skills to exclude unworthy men. She will undoubtedly see a lot less action, but is more likely to find a much better man.
Solid, and I agree with you.
I think that hookups generally fail to produce relationships, and the relationships that come out of it tend to be short and of low quality. In the long run, I think the hookup culture is harmful because it tends to divorce sexual desire and emotional intimacy in people, which leaves them serving two conflicting masters.
There isn't much “dating” in college, but that's because people tend to meet through friends of friends, so there's no need to make active effort to go out and meet people.
I think the best way to form relationships is through social circle and becoming friends first, although that's rare. Second is traditional (somewhat rigid and forced) dating. Hookup culture is a distant third. I don't think it's of any value.
I also think that being a virgin until college graduation is not as bad as it's made out to be, especially for a woman. A 25-30 year-old male virgin is in trouble, but a 25-year-old female virgin is very hotly desired and has a huge advantage over women her age who hooked up in college.
[Sorry if this double posts]
While it's always going to be somewhat difficult to separate 'sex from politics', since they've more or less traveled together for various reasons & purposes for yes, eons, (think about the gradual 'empowerment' and/or emancipation of women here up from chattel slavery often described the Bible until today). It'll be a damn slight greater trick however to try and separate out sex from 'deception', which has been going on biologically since, well, since the year jot, presumably. It's one of the foundations of evolution actually. HambyD presumably could tell us that too.
But again somehow it would be more useful & productive to actually try and shorten this now decade long period of 'attended' adult adjustment wherein we finally come to realize then decide & become comfortable with our own wants, needs & desires as far as sex & mating are concerned. And of course also come to vaguely recognize that you'll eventually really need someone flexible enough to be able to adapt & adjust to the complexities of the situations at hand as they do tend to gradually change with age. What you may have desired in a mate @ 17 is different than the one you'd chose @ 27 and again perhaps a bit different than the one you'd want @ 37, and again more adjustments would be needed to be cobbled together to make it past several 'way points' along the journey. For many? That requires the ministrations of many, many partners in serial succession evidently. And plenty of 'search time', before, during & after each, presumably. So lots & lots of time expended on the issue, with perhaps not much accumulated 'enlightenment' in-between. Or until the ‘bitter end’ we imagine. And we're the ones with the big brains, spectacular sprawling culture, and that much vaunted 'higher consciousness' too, right? Makes you wonder! Cheers, ‘VJ’
Hahaha, I love it! Red carding geeks for DB behavior. That's awesome. You have definitely hit on the crux of the matter when you describe how silly and dysfunctional the current dating scene is. I keep thinking: won't there be a “market correction” at some point? Won't women wise up after less than two decades of trial and error, at which point their eggs are shriveled and puny? I'm waiting for the backlash. I've gotta get my girls here to make a stand!
Wow. I just spent some time on your blog, sent a bunch of posts to Evernote to read later when I have a bit more time. I did read about your college experience, though, and it blew me away. I would not blame you if you never trusted a woman for the rest of your life, but I can tell that you want to, and therefore I know that you will find a way, with the right woman. Honestly, I feel ashamed for my sex – your story is like some horrible film script.
I can also tell from perusing Alvanista that you understand the value of the beta male in modern society. You reject combat dating, amen to that. I believe that in an information/service economy, the man with traditional “beta” characteristics is well-positioned. As you point out in your discussion of two conflicting masters, there are short-term and long-term considerations. Women will indeed find the traditional high-testosterone Alpha desirable in the short-term. However, Beta makes the best life partner, hands down, and in modern society, he is also more likely to be successful economically. (The truth is, even 15,000 years ago, women happily cheated with Beta while Alpha was off hunting.)
However, I digress. Re your comment here, I am a big proponent of friendship first, then let's see what happens. While hooking up is the pathway to relationships, that happens only 12% of the time, and as you say, those relationships tend to be crappy and short-lived.
I find it interesting that you say a 25 year-old female virgin is hotly desired. I hear from virgins that age pretty regularly, and it's something they struggle with. They find that men, while often respectful, are shocked to learn of it. Women who reach the age of 25 without having had sex have been strong, have made a choice to do so. Many women bang some awful guy just to “get it over with.” I respect the women who are holding out for more, but they do worry that they are “freaks”.
Of course, in this era of women exercising, playing sports, etc., the telltale bleeding at first intercourse is often absent, so a woman can “fudge” her number and pretend to be as virginal as she pleases. A lot of the Game sites talk about not wanting women who have been used by Alphas, but the truth is, that information can be very difficult to come by.
Yes, VJ, sex and deception, deception and sex. Like peanut butter and chocolate, burgers and fries. You're right about evolution – since the human female is the only mammal with hidden, though constant, estrus, males have had to wonder about paternity since the year jot. Jealousy was the natural response, but humans will always struggle with suspicion and deceit around infidelity.
You make a great point about changing needs and desires as we age. I do believe the divorce rate is considerably higher for those who marry young, but at the same time, the average age at marriage has gone up five years in the U.S. since 1960, and that hasn't helped reduce divorce. Of course, cause and effect is difficult to ascertain.
In my own marriage, which occurred when I was 27, my needs have indeed changed over time, but so has my husband. He works hard to be what I need, and I do the same for him. It's a system of small but constant recalibrations, negotiations, experiments to see what works and what doesn't. Determination and flexibility have been essential. And laughter. Laughter is the key.
Yes, this is where the ‘both/and’ concept comes into play here. With ‘abstinence’ being mainly defined within the sex ed context, it really should be understood in a wider frame. No one should feel compelled to see or ‘have truck with’ anyone who a.) seeks to cause them harm or somehow consistently manages to do so via their foolish acts & choices and b.) seeks to constantly mainly ‘use’ them for their own selfish immediate gratification or ends. You really should be ‘abstinent’ to these players & ‘DB’s’ for as long as possible, and certainly only at your own discretion too. That’s natural a ‘self preservation’ adaptation and also a sure way to preserve more of your sanity for longer.
The issue with DB’s however is a universal one. Anyone might become one for almost any reason and at anytime, Self delusion among the principal of these evidently. So for those middling geeks who come to think all too highly of themselves and seek to take advantage of the ‘arrangement’ described herein? We’d have some ‘yellow’ caution flags or red penalty flags that would be posted on their FB (or similar) pages online. Anyone could check them out to see their updated relative relationship ready ‘status’ month to month. (They’d have a few weeks to perhaps ‘shape up’ after falling ‘off the wagon’ and into a ‘typical DB status’). Yes, this would involve some bureaucracy (like anything else) and there would be some possibility of appeals. The same would apply to the women too, BTW. To be judged by a panel of their peers, and mostly of the same sex, (say a 60-40 split). That would tend to keep more folks ‘honest’, but truth be told it would all probably break down quickly enough. More people would not agree about the ‘common good’, and most women would still want to chase the good/better looking/smelling ‘DB’s, and all too many dweebs might think & imagine that they can pull in super models, well just because of their bitching scores on WOW, & hawt ‘sunken chests’ & high quality chess/math gaming etc.
But bottom line? We've got to find better ways of making this all work for more folks & more 'normal folks' w/o spending perhaps about 2 decades of dating and finally 'meeting the one', (or exhausting all immediate alternatives and accepting what shows up mainly). This just 'ain't working right, it's dysfunctional and it's a silly & foolish waste of time. The perfect may not be possible as this is an ever moving trajectory. The 'good enough fit' might be possible to be 'solved' for many ages along the spectrum, as long as you're reasonably self aware and know what it is you want, desire & require. And not to mistake one for another. Or imagine that fantasy can be actually 'lived in' for long. Well without the long term help of plenty of pharmaceuticals! Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
How is not having sex, instead pursuing traditional and respectful dating and courtship, empowering? It's simple. A woman who is sexually selective is establishing that she has respect for herself and will only be intimate with a worthy man, while a woman who sleeps with men she wouldn't introduce to her parents is valuing herself at zero.
I don't believe everyone has to wait until marriage to have sex. On the other hand, the idea that women should dip into the rancid cesspool known as the “hookup culture” is just ridiculous. Hookup “culture”– a misnomer, since it's province of the unrefined and coarse– needs to die.
Hi cless, thanks for weighing in here.
“A woman who is sexually selective is establishing that she has respect for herself and will only be intimate with a worthy man”
I agree 100%. The difficulty arises in determining who is worthy. Of course there are many ways that men signal their intentions up front, but unfortunately there is a great deal of deceit used in seducing women for sex. That means that women should hold out until they can vouch for a man's true character. Easier said than done – women are guilty of wishful thinking oftentimes. Also, at very young ages (18-21), where NSA hooking up is most prevalent, the woman who is holding out for a worthy guy may well find herself a virgin at college graduation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (in fact I respect it tremendously), but the reality is that women want to have relationships, and keep at it in hopes of finding one.
As I stated at the top of this post, relationships in college almost always follow a hooking up period. Physical intimacy precedes emotional intimacy in the vast majority of cases. Telling women not to indulge won't work, it's just asking too much. Very few women would agree up front to four college years without guys. They're sexual, they get crushes, they're under enormous peer pressure. And they behave in unrefined and coarse ways sometimes.
I like your description of hookup culture – rancid cesspool is about right. I'd like nothing more than to see it die. I used to hope that would occur before my daughter got to college (she's now a junior), but now I'm hopeful that the pendulum will swing back before her daughter gets to college.
I see my job as pointing out to women how they will benefit by waiting. If a woman wants a relationship, she needs to be smart about her sexual behavior. No one woman can change the prevailing norms around sex in our society. But she can improve her decision-making skills to exclude unworthy men. She will undoubtedly see a lot less action, but is more likely to find a much better man.
P.S. My main objective in this post was to separate sex from politics. I believe sex is always a personal decision. No one should feel guilty for choosing to abstain, or for choosing to engage. Nor should they feel pressured or coerced.
Solid, and I agree with you.
I think that hookups generally fail to produce relationships, and the relationships that come out of it tend to be short and of low quality. In the long run, I think the hookup culture is harmful because it tends to divorce sexual desire and emotional intimacy in people, which leaves them serving two conflicting masters.
There isn't much “dating” in college, but that's because people tend to meet through friends of friends, so there's no need to make active effort to go out and meet people.
I think the best way to form relationships is through social circle and becoming friends first, although that's rare. Second is traditional (somewhat rigid and forced) dating. Hookup culture is a distant third. I don't think it's of any value.
I also think that being a virgin until college graduation is not as bad as it's made out to be, especially for a woman. A 25-30 year-old male virgin is in trouble, but a 25-year-old female virgin is very hotly desired and has a huge advantage over women her age who hooked up in college.
[Sorry if this double posts]
While it's always going to be somewhat difficult to separate 'sex from politics', since they've more or less traveled together for various reasons & purposes for yes, eons, (think about the gradual 'empowerment' and/or emancipation of women here up from chattel slavery often described the Bible until today). It'll be a damn slight greater trick however to try and separate out sex from 'deception', which has been going on biologically since, well, since the year jot, presumably. It's one of the foundations of evolution actually. HambyD presumably could tell us that too.
But again somehow it would be more useful & productive to actually try and shorten this now decade long period of 'attended' adult adjustment wherein we finally come to realize then decide & become comfortable with our own wants, needs & desires as far as sex & mating are concerned. And of course also come to vaguely recognize that you'll eventually really need someone flexible enough to be able to adapt & adjust to the complexities of the situations at hand as they do tend to gradually change with age. What you may have desired in a mate @ 17 is different than the one you'd chose @ 27 and again perhaps a bit different than the one you'd want @ 37, and again more adjustments would be needed to be cobbled together to make it past several 'way points' along the journey. For many? That requires the ministrations of many, many partners in serial succession evidently. And plenty of 'search time', before, during & after each, presumably. So lots & lots of time expended on the issue, with perhaps not much accumulated 'enlightenment' in-between. Or until the ‘bitter end’ we imagine. And we're the ones with the big brains, spectacular sprawling culture, and that much vaunted 'higher consciousness' too, right? Makes you wonder! Cheers, ‘VJ’
Hahaha, I love it! Red carding geeks for DB behavior. That's awesome. You have definitely hit on the crux of the matter when you describe how silly and dysfunctional the current dating scene is. I keep thinking: won't there be a “market correction” at some point? Won't women wise up after less than two decades of trial and error, at which point their eggs are shriveled and puny? I'm waiting for the backlash. I've gotta get my girls here to make a stand!
Wow. I just spent some time on your blog, sent a bunch of posts to Evernote to read later when I have a bit more time. I did read about your college experience, though, and it blew me away. I would not blame you if you never trusted a woman for the rest of your life, but I can tell that you want to, and therefore I know that you will find a way, with the right woman. Honestly, I feel ashamed for my sex – your story is like some horrible film script.
I can also tell from perusing Alvanista that you understand the value of the beta male in modern society. You reject combat dating, amen to that. I believe that in an information/service economy, the man with traditional “beta” characteristics is well-positioned. As you point out in your discussion of two conflicting masters, there are short-term and long-term considerations. Women will indeed find the traditional high-testosterone Alpha desirable in the short-term. However, Beta makes the best life partner, hands down, and in modern society, he is also more likely to be successful economically. (The truth is, even 15,000 years ago, women happily cheated with Beta while Alpha was off hunting.)
However, I digress. Re your comment here, I am a big proponent of friendship first, then let's see what happens. While hooking up is the pathway to relationships, that happens only 12% of the time, and as you say, those relationships tend to be crappy and short-lived.
I find it interesting that you say a 25 year-old female virgin is hotly desired. I hear from virgins that age pretty regularly, and it's something they struggle with. They find that men, while often respectful, are shocked to learn of it. Women who reach the age of 25 without having had sex have been strong, have made a choice to do so. Many women bang some awful guy just to “get it over with.” I respect the women who are holding out for more, but they do worry that they are “freaks”.
Of course, in this era of women exercising, playing sports, etc., the telltale bleeding at first intercourse is often absent, so a woman can “fudge” her number and pretend to be as virginal as she pleases. A lot of the Game sites talk about not wanting women who have been used by Alphas, but the truth is, that information can be very difficult to come by.
Yes, VJ, sex and deception, deception and sex. Like peanut butter and chocolate, burgers and fries. You're right about evolution – since the human female is the only mammal with hidden, though constant, estrus, males have had to wonder about paternity since the year jot. Jealousy was the natural response, but humans will always struggle with suspicion and deceit around infidelity.
You make a great point about changing needs and desires as we age. I do believe the divorce rate is considerably higher for those who marry young, but at the same time, the average age at marriage has gone up five years in the U.S. since 1960, and that hasn't helped reduce divorce. Of course, cause and effect is difficult to ascertain.
In my own marriage, which occurred when I was 27, my needs have indeed changed over time, but so has my husband. He works hard to be what I need, and I do the same for him. It's a system of small but constant recalibrations, negotiations, experiments to see what works and what doesn't. Determination and flexibility have been essential. And laughter. Laughter is the key.
Has it been proven to work?
Once men are viewed by a particular woman as friends, is it not impossible to go further with that particular woman?
{ 2 trackbacks }