An American Virgin: Goddess or Circus Freak?

Posted by Susan Walsh on Nov 30, 2009 in Hooking Up Realities, Personal Development, What Guys Want |

Virginity is a loaded topic in our culture, both for women and men. Only 11% of American women aged 20-24 are virgins, and that number goes down to 4% for ages 25-29. While a few women wear this badge proudly, and even try to get rich selling their maidenhead, most feel self-conscious and awkward about their lack of sexual experience. Indeed, many young women have sex with someone just to “get it over with.” The median age for girls is 17.4 years, and a significant number of those encounters occur outside the context of a serious relationship. Let’s face it, wearing the Scarlet Letter V in one’s 20s becomes a burden for women who have made this choice.

Today we have a guest post from one of those women. Jacqueline is a journalist in New York. She wrote to me recently asking for relationship advice, and this topic became central to our conversation. She has written a heartfelt and poignant account of her own experience, one that I think many of us can relate to, whether we’ve had sexual intercourse or not. I thank her for sharing herself generously with us in this way. Let her know what you think in the Comments section!


Jacqueline
Jacqueline

True Life: I’m (Still) A Virgin.

by Jacqueline

“I used to think, I had the answers to everything,

But now I know, Life doesn’t always go my way, yeah…

Feels like I’m caught in the middle

That’s when I realize…

I’m not a girl, Not yet a woman.

All I need is time, A moment that is mine,

While I’m in between…”

Britney Spears, I’m Not a Girl, Not Yet a Woman


I know we should take most pop lyrics with the proverbial grain of salt, but I think Britney has really touched upon something profoundly real and poignant here: the complex transition from “girl” into “woman.”

Everyone has different standards for when a female officially transitions from girlhood to womanhood. For you, it may have been the day you bought your first training bra or had your first kiss. Maybe it was the moment you got your first period (my own mother wanted to throw me a party – the horror). Perhaps, it will be the day you finally marry, or have your first child…the list goes on and on.

To get technical for a moment, if I may, the definitions according to Merriam-Webster are as follows:

girl:

1. a female child from birth to adulthood

2. a young unmarried woman

woman:

1. an adult female person

2. distinctly feminine nature

Hmmm, interesting. And kind of vague. And kind of confusing.

In my opinion, a female can call herself one or the other whenever she feels confident enough to call herself one or the other. Sounds simple enough, but it’s actually quite complicated. Some females feel completely embarrassed wearing their first bras, and I’m sure many of you can relate to the fact that having a monthly lady cycle takes some getting used to. The complete and utter awkwardness of coming-of-age is hardly what comes to mind when one conjures up the image of a powerful, confident woman. Special circumstances also apply; there are females who can’t biologically have children, and tragically, it isn’t always a female’s decision when she loses her virginity.  It’s all very personal, so why do we often let society – including men (excuse me, but they don’t even have vaginas) – determine how we should or shouldn’t feel about our own sense of womanly being?

These days, my mind is totally preoccupied with one characteristic in particular that seems to straddle the worlds of Girldom and Womandom: Virginity.

Just last month, Tina Fey divulged on David Letterman that she lost her virginity (to her husband) at the age of 24:

“Couldn’t give it away,” Fey says with a sigh. “That’s just good Christian values, or, being homely.”

As much as I love Tina Fey and all of her brilliance, I was somewhat disappointed by her comment. I’m sure she meant no harm, and knowing her she was most likely trying to get a good laugh, but it only serves to reiterate a common stereotype. I mean honestly, does a 24-year-old virgin automatically have to be a homely reject? Or freakishly religious? Can’t she be smart and pretty (dare I say, even hot?) and simply choose to wait for her own reasons? I’ve never been a huge fan of Victoria’s Secret models, but I love what gorgeous Adriana Lima did for  virgins with her promise to abstain until marriage (at the age of 27). Many a straight guy’s dream, she did the unthinkable.

I am a virgin. A 24-year-old virgin.

No, I’m not a nun. And I’m not homely either. Actually, at the risk of sounding somewhat narcissistic, I think I’m quite attractive. So as you’d rightly guess, I’ve had ample opportunity to hook up with a stud or ten. A serial dater, I have no problem engaging in the occasional hot ‘n’ heavy makeout session. But no sex. Never sex. Here is my story.

When I was in my early teens, I made a commitment to True Love Waits, a nationwide Christian group that promotes abstinence until marriage. It became fixed in my mind that I was to remain a precious, untarnished gift for my future, gift-opening husband, and I truly cherished the thought. I couldn’t wait to have that magical night after my wedding. The blissful thought of it all remained with me for a decade, lasting through all the boys I ever dated, and staying strong despite all of the kisses, temptations, and co-ed sleepovers.

My longest relationship with a guy was during my senior year of college, and it lasted approximately six months. Far from being a virgin himself, he was willing to wait; so was Ted actually, and Brad, and Kody (in fact, Kody loved that I was waiting). As I explored dating, it appeared that guy after guy either understood or even preferred my decision to remain a virgin. I realize now that I was a tad spoiled by consistently coming across guys like these.

I’ve been out of college for several years now, and over the past few months I’ve been doing some thinking. It all started after I listened to a debate on NPR’s Intelligence Squared; there was an argument over society’s criticism of placing so much value and worth on female virginity. After some deep reflection, I got really angry. Actually, I was outright pissed. These days, sex and the hook-up culture are more pervasive than ever, and I realized that while I was waiting and keeping myself “pure,” my future husband was most likely not doing the same thing. If my future dreamboat wasn’t contributing to my fantasy of what our wedding night would be, why should I? As Jessica Valenti (a feminist writer) vents in her book, The Purity Myth: How America’s Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women: “If I am not to be ‘damaged goods,’ then I certainly don’t want to marry a ‘goods damager.’”

The familiar double standard argument is aggravating, but it still rings true in situations like these. Above all, my problem with the whole scenario is this: I’m sitting here in my mid-20’s, feeling not only frustrated and restless, but missing out on experiences I know would make me grow as a person (and as a woman), and be a bit more in step with the rest of society, more in tune with conversations and thoughts and opinions around me. Enough with living vicariously through other people. I want to grow. I want to fully experience people. I want passion and knowledge too, dammit!

In the past, I have staunchly defended my position to wait. Many of my girlfriends were treated terribly after losing it in high school or college to sleazebags. They were dumped or subsequently ignored after the guy got what he wanted, and one good friend was even left to take care of the abortion while her so-called boyfriend went on a family trip. As badly as I felt for them, I hated that many of these girls felt it was okay to project their guilt and regret onto me, and ridicule my beliefs.  My closest friends would frequently harp on my vow of chastity, saying things like, “The sex will turn out to be horrible, and you’ll just end up getting a divorce!” Now, I love Sex and the City just as much as the next girl, but Charlotte and Trey’s messy split after he turned out to be impotent always made my battle in these debates a losing one. I understand the importance of sexual chemistry, trust me, but I wasn’t judging them for their choices, so why were they judging me for mine?

It eventually got to the point where I was defending myself so frequently and forcefully that I deemed the only way to protect myself and keep my strong beliefs from faltering was to get self-righteous about it. So I stepped up onto my high horse. I had waited and had no regrets about doing so; if people were envious of my self-control, great. Maybe then they’d stop yelling at me already.

Recently, although I was still riding that high horse, I started to reconsider: What if I do it with someone I’m in love with before getting married? To be clear, I still think it’s a nice idea to wait, and will always think so. There’s something to be said for having the patience and willpower to consciously exclude yourself from potentially devastating heartbreak and emotional co-dependency.

However, I slowly began to shed the pending guilt I believed I would inevitably feel if I did have sex before marriage. I knew God wouldn’t love me any less. My family would still love me, as would my friends. But the real question was this: would I still love me?  That’s where my head was until recently, when I met a boy. A boy who was truly the first to make me totally, completely, and hopelessly smitten.

Benjamin and I met and went on three dates in just seven days. They were all wonderful and lovely – straight out of a movie. Perfect conversation, perfect manners (on his end), perfect venues, and we shut down each place we went to with our five-hour-long dates. I was officially obsessed after our first kiss (at the end of our second date), and more notably, I let myself obsess. For the first time, I allowed myself to run crazy with infatuation. And he liked me too. We had mutual friends, common interests, a shared sense of humor. We talked politics, relationships, hobbies, and family. We made plans to go hiking, see this movie, go to that club, etc. It was a dream.

I had no desire to control myself or pay attention to some of the red flags I noticed with Benjamin (there were a few). Then on our third date, we started talking about our past relationships and sexual histories, and the topic of virginity came up. I asked point-blank if he thought virginity was weird. He paused, looked at me, and asked, “Wait. Are you a virgin?” Already, he had an incredulous look on his face, as though merely asking the question was an anomaly in and of itself. Granted, he was born and raised in Manhattan, a fast-paced world in which many privileged children, often left to their own devices and unlimited funding, grow up much quicker than the rest of us. He had his first fake ID when he was around 13. What was I doing when I was 13? Errr… taking a vow of abstinence.

I considered lying, but decided to tell him the truth, and to make a long story short, he freaked. Very subtly, but I can recognize a good old-fashioned freakout when I see one. And since he freaked out, I freaked out. Freaked out so much I fell right off my high horse and landed splat onto my face. Completely gone were my firm standings and beliefs. They were suddenly replaced with thoughts like these: Does this mean he doesn’t want to go to yoga class with me anymore? Should I tell him I could possibly do it with him soon if we date for a few weeks? Is dangling the promise of sex just way too tacky?

I suddenly felt Benjamin distance himself, creating an immediate shift between us that he tried to remedy with cuddles and hair-playing and kisses. It didn’t work. I sincerely do not remember the last time I ever felt so self-conscious. In a span of about eight seconds, I had turned from feeling like a goddess to a circus freak. He kept mumbling under his breath with a perplexed and fascinated shake of his head: “That is so interesting. Now I get it…” Umm, get what? Don’t you psychoanalyze me!

Benjamin’s silent judgment doesn’t make me want to lose my virginity because I’m afraid of shocked reactions – I’ve known too many good guys to be so easily swayed. But it did force me to ask myself a very simple but thought-provoking question: Why not have sex? To continue with the metaphor, Benjamin spooked me off my horse and threw me off my stagnant trail – a trail I no longer knew or was aware of. I needed to fall off, and to reevaluate my choices. I was putting so much pressure on myself around my virginity, but I no longer knew why.

It was necessary for me to fall off that horse and have some time to rub my injured bottom (uhh…ego). I learned that I am not unshakeable, nor are my values. Beliefs don’t have to be set in stone, and if they’re modified, who’s to say that’s not okay? As Susan so wonderfully summed up the two constant rules of life in another post, “Everything changes, and, you will be surprised.”

Now I’m looking forward to losing my virginity to someone I love. I’m ready, which doesn’t mean that I’ve finally got that month’s supply of birth control, the pack of Trojans in my purse, or the beautiful La Perla matching lace bra-and-panty set. It means I know that afterwards, I won’t be consumed with guilt or fear or regret. When I was younger, I knew that regardless of whom I did it with, I would be destroyed: if it were with someone I cared for, I’d automatically detest him for taking something I wasn’t ready to have taken; if it were with someone I didn’t care about, I could never forgive myself. I have not one regret about waiting this long. My timing is right, and it finally feels good, for me. Perhaps at 24 I am somewhat of a late bloomer, but I find no shame in that. And if you are in a similar situation, you shouldn’t either.

Benjamin didn’t call me again after that conversation, yet I don’t hate him. I think he has some growing up to do, but I’ve also learned this: everyone is different, and believes in different things – based on how they grew up, what kind of parents raised them, what kind of friends they hung out with, etc. Socioeconomic, political, and religious factors all play a part as well. Let’s face the facts: Every single one of us is ignorant about something. It is literally impossible to be tolerant and familiar with everything and everyone. We’re human. We judge. No one is immune.

Benjamin might have thought my lack of sexual experience was weird, but I thought it was weird that he once “fooled around” with a stripper. I suspect that now he sees me in his mind as the abnormal lunatic chick with the inexplicable sociosexual disorder. Too bad for him.

I may change my mind tomorrow, next week, or when I’m 30 years old about how and when I want to lose my virginity. I might even revert back to my original decision and choose to abstain until my wedding night.

Truth be told, I don’t know yet whether I feel more like a girl, or a woman.

But I do know this: It’s not up to anyone else but me to decide.

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Related posts:

  1. Why Are American Men Sexually Insecure?
  2. Brilliant Dating Advice From a Dead Virgin
  3. Swiping the V-Card

  • ParatrooperJJ
    Jaqueline you are beautiful and I am sure there are many guys lusting over you - virgin or not.
  • ReadytoSell
    Oh really?

    You can't believe that there are SOME 18 year old girls who are involuntary virgins who are also sick of being so? What, you can't believe that there are some female teens who are into pornography, sex toys, and prostitution as a release?

    I don't care whether you buy it or not. I'm not a male, have all female parts, and I was born the 12 August 1991, and I think you are so ignorant for assuming otherwise.

    Have a nice life.
  • vera44
    Hmm. As a virgin myself at 24, I really don't think you are old. You're a year later than the average, who cares? Most of the guys I've dated that have turned out to be worthwhile people lost their virginities pretty late in the game -- early twenties for a lot of them, and no, they weren't losers or ugly or dumb. As a girl, you're really not going to have very much trouble finding someone to devirginize you. If the guy you're seeing really isn't into having sex with you, it is no issue to find someone who will be.

    I guess you could sell if you don't really value it much, but if you go that route, try to keep your identity secret if you can. The social stigma after doing something like that would be devastating -- look at what happened to that one girl who sold it for $1 million.
  • ReadytoSell
    I'm 18 and I'm an involuntary virgin. Right now I am in my first relationship with a guy who has only show a romantic interest in me, not a sexual one. I am not a religious person (I'm not in the "sex is for marriage" crowd), but I'm not into drunken one-night stands either. I've recently considered selling my virginity as well as purchasing pornography and vibrators. I will NOT be an overaged virgin, and I plan on dealing with this now before it becomes a serious problem in the future.
  • susanawalsh
    Whoa! I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'll assume you are.

    1. 18 is an average age to lose your virginity. It makes no sense for you to be worrying about being an overaged virgin at this point, whatever that is.

    2. If a guy shows romantic interest in you, consider yourself lucky. You can be sure he does want sex, and if he's not going for it yet it's out of respect for you and your relationship.

    3. Why on earth would you consider selling your virginity? Is prostitution your planned career path?

    4. There's so much porn online, you don't need to purchase it. Check it out if you want to, nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with having a vibrator. In fact, I recommend it. Whether you are a virgin or sexually experienced, there will be times when you want to satisfy yourself.
  • ReadytoSell
    "Whoa! I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'll assume you are."

    I am.

    "1. 18 is an average age to lose your virginity. It makes no sense for you to be worrying about being an overaged virgin at this point, whatever that is."

    16/17 is the age where most people are losing their virginities, and after I hit 18, I officially became an over aged virgin. So yeah, I'm starting to worry and rightly so.

    "2. If a guy shows romantic interest in you, consider yourself lucky. You can be sure he does want sex, and if he's not going for it yet it's out of respect for you and your relationship."

    Or it could be that he is having sex with someone else, he is asexual and/or sexually unattracted to me, or is entirely confused about the relationship altogether. I think he sees me as a friend moreso than a "girl friend" (and I use that term loosely).

    He may and probably does want to have sex, but not with me. And I find that heart breaking.

    "3. Why on earth would you consider selling your virginity? Is prostitution your planned career path?"

    Why do you care? A woman just recently sold her virginity for over a million dollars. Quite impressive. I'm not saying I want to be a prostitute, but a good way for me to get rid of this Scarlet V would be to sell it (if possible). At least I can profit from something that women give away so freely these days.

    "4. There's so much porn online, you don't need to purchase it. Check it out if you want to, nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with having a vibrator. In fact, I recommend it. Whether you are a virgin or sexually experienced, there will be times when you want to satisfy yourself."

    Thanks for the advice.
  • susanawalsh
    This really doesn't read like the writing of an 18 year-old woman. I'm not buying it. It reeks of male impostor. There is so much that is troubling in what you say, I don't even know where to begin. Either way, you need counseling, and I urge you to get it asap.
  • susanawalsh
    Whoa, msignal, chill! What's it to you? First of all, many women have weighed in here who are virgins, but it has nothing to do with religious belief. In fact, Jacqueline herself clearly states that while that was her background growing up, religion is no longer the reason she abstains from sex, and that she is open-minded about her future.

    Yes, there are people who are very unhappy because they are virgins, and don't wish to be. And there are also men who are looking for fast sex without commitment. Jacqueline had the misfortune to fall for one of those. She isn't asking for pity or attention. I invited her to write about her experience. It's fine for you to respectfully disagree, but totally uncalled for to call her a clown or put her down in any other way.
  • msignal
    It is completely pointless to debate people like Jacqueline and Verie44. Since a young age, they had this "no sex before marriage" message hammered into their brains by the Church. Later in their lives, the message was formalized by "purity" rings and the quasi-incestuous "purity" balls/weddings. Sexual repression is never and will never be a good thing. It is very likely these women have lots of other hangs up and deep seated psychological issues as a result of this Christian brainwashing. It is also important to remember that these people are complete hypocrites. They do everything sexual with guys except intercourse and then claim themselves as "virgins" ? Their obsession with treating intercourse as some kind of a sacred gift to their husband is comical, but at the same time also sad. There are many people out there struggling with real issues, including involuntary virginity. Why are we giving these clowns attention? They are 100% proud of who they are. And that’s fine. They don't want to have sex, no big deal. What business is that of ours? Let them do what they want. But don't forget to pin those scarlet letters on yourselves when you go out girls.
  • vera44
    1. I don't feel like I'm repressed at all, in fact, I think & fantasize about sex a lot more than most girls I know (I have a standard deviation more testosterone in my body than average, I know this from a hormone test I took a while ago). So the waiting is harder for me than it would be for most women.

    2. What other deep seated issues do you think result from being a virgin? I can tell you that I have a very active social life with lots of friends who like to be around me, graduated from an ivy league school, and have a good career. If you met me in public, you'd have no clue I was a virgin. So what exactly do you think is missing from my psyche?

    3. Hypocritical with everything sexual but intercourse maybe, again I don't really care what other people think about it. I'm more worried about the bonding effects from the release of oxytocin than being hypocritical. It happens when you have actual intercourse, that's the reason you're considered a virgin until you have penetrative sex. That is what I think is sacred, that special bond between people that's only supposed to be shared with one other person -- not the physical parts of my body, it's just a body, honestly. If I could choose to turn off that bonding mechanism & have penetrative sex, I would have done it already.

    4. I don't pin a scarlet letter on myself when I go out. Even most of my friends have no idea I am a virgin. I don't bother telling people unless they ask because it's a characteristic about me, a personal belief I have, and it doesn't define who I am. I also don't want people (particularly women) to feel like I am judging them, which is usually what they immediately think.
  • msignal
    1. So you think about sex a lot but are not having it? Why? If you have a very active social life with lots of friends, it shouldn't be hard for you to find a good guy, I would think. If it's the whole "no sex before marriage" thing, I'm not even going to bother commenting on that.

    2. Well, voluntary virgins are usually either a). Have a history of abuse as a child b). Jesus freaks c). Have some kind of medical condition that results in lack of sexual desire. A and B have serious psychological issues. C may have some issues, depending on internalization of values and self-esteem.

    3. So the strongest way a couple can bond is through release of oxytocin during intercourse? Pretty good excuse, if you can get people to buy into it. I don't think your average male would be that biochemistry conscious though.

    4. How come your friends don't know you are a virgin? I was a virgin until I was 26 and if my friends would ever give me shit about it (which they never did btw), I would kick them to the curb faster than you could say "à bientôt". I suppose it could different for girls though.
  • vera44
    1. I already explained my reasons in #3 above. It's a spiritual thing for me, I want to experience love the way in the way I think it was meant to be experienced. Yes, it's the whole "no sex before marriage" thing, but not just because god said so, because of what I already explained and what I state below.

    2. You obviously don't have to believe me, but none of those reasons apply to me. I've never been abused, I don't have any medical condition. I do believe in god, but I don't go to church ever so I think that disqualifies me from jesus freak status. And by saying that jesus freaks have serious psychological issues, you're making the statement that 95% of the world (if we extrapolate from the US) has psychological problems since only 5% doesn't believe in a higher power. Since that's not the case (psychological issues are defined as a deviance from the norm), that makes it your opinion (and a minority one at that).

    3. I don't think the release of oxytocin during intercourse is the strongest way to bond, I know it is. Science proves it. It makes my girlfriends who are otherwise extremely smart, wonderful people stay with men that are HORRIBLE to them. I don't think it's an excuse, it's just a fact. And I don't know if the science bears me out on this, but everyone always remembers their first intercourse, don't they? I'm not sure on this because as far as I know, it hasn't been studied, but I would guess that there's more chemical released during that first time, because in my opinion, people are really only supposed to have one partner for life.

    Also, I don't care that your average male would be that biochemistry conscious. I'm clearly not looking for your average male. I'm not your average female. Who really wants to be average anyway? That means you have an IQ of 100, graduated from a 2 year community college, hate your job, make ~$30,000 / year, have 2 kids, and are divorced. So I'll pass on the average male, thanks.

    4. I don't see the need to tell them, they've never asked me and it's not really relevant to anyone but the people I'm dating. I don't hold myself up as a standard they should follow, I'm very much about live and let live. My decision is right for me, but it wouldn't be right for a lot of people out there. I don't think most of my friends would give me shit about it, but I know they wouldn't share certain parts of their lives with me, thinking I couldn't understand. But I can, it's not like i haven't had relationships and dated people, and gone out with horrible people, etc. Most of the the things we talk about are relationship oriented anyway, not really having to do with sex.
  • msignal
    3. Sounds like your girlfriends are typical douchebag loving darlings. While they may be wonderful people towards you, they have always treated decent guys like trash. I have zero sympathy for them. They will learn their lesson eventually, but it will be too late by then. Too many wrinkles on their partied out faces, and too much baggage in their Prada purses.
  • vera44
    It could be true for some girls out there, but my friends don't treat anyone like trash & I definitely hope that they'll come to their senses. Some have. How is it any different from men choosing extremely beautiful women with no substance when they are young? Everyone has to learn lessons, men and women both. Some take longer than others.

    In any case, this is off-topic, isn't it? We're not really talking about them in this post. My point was about the effects of oxytocin. I'm responding to your comment that virgins "have lots of other hang ups and deep seated psychological issues," are "complete hypocrites," are "clowns" and "sad" people, and love to pin "scarlet letters" on themselves. These are all stereotypes that are untrue of all virgins, so please stop labeling us. Thanks.
  • VJ
    Yes, things were a bit different back in the day. And if you were a 6'2" & accomplished, well educated former OSS agent married to a cultivated NJ artist aesthete lad also working in the Foreign Service. Normal they were not. But she seemed perfectly happy too. Crazy, but happy. I miss that on TV! And as always I'll blame 'Jersey for these calamities & happenstances too. Cheers, 'VJ'
  • VJ
    Just to keep the fun going, and because I know I'm already consigned to purgatory (I'm a Democrat & live in Ga.), I'll offer this late bit. But again, it might be helpful to re-read everything that I had to say (should you be able to stand it), as I do understand a bit of where you're coming from, and I know plenty of folks who are in the same boat. (Perhaps just the 'bullet points' one might do here though).

    From Verie: on 'Childlike':

    "The thing is, I see tons of girls walking around NYC (I live in the city too) and although they're beautiful and my age, they're so hardened. They've been hurt so many times and have had so many disappointments with guys that they're angry, bitter, suspicious, etc. I would much rather avoid all of that -- you can't take back experiences once they've been had. Some of my girlfriends have been burned so badly that I think they'll never be the same. Their playfulness, happiness, childishness, has gone out of them.

    Those are my reasons for abstaining..."

    So yeah. Obviously I'm imagining all of this. And yes, some of this is very real too. But some of the 'angry, bitter, suspicious[ness]' is all about acclimatizing to some aspects of job hunting in a minor Depression, living in a city that's getting quickly unaffordable but for the very rich, or even trouble at home with momma & daddy and her BF/GF/random other family members. Or a sick relative w/o health insurance, or a dead car. Whatever. Not all hurt, disappointments or tragedies in life relate to sex & relationships. Promise! Some will & can be far worse! (Try Health care disasters for $200 Alex).

    So yes, much of what you say can be gleaned in the ways you say it. This is pretty common, and pretty typical for any serious 'textual analysis'.

    So really. I'd love to be more supportive, and I think it's fine to remain a virgin for however long it can remain practical in your lives, and as much as it serves a useful purpose. But if this said purpose is indeed marriage & future children? As the original TLW campaign was & does remain focused upon? Then everyone should and needs to be aware of the severe limitations of such an approach to adult relationships. Yes, sadly enough, it will be getting more difficult to find suitable mates as you grow older. Mates your own age & of similar experiences especially.

    Why do I want to harp on this all to be singled out as some 'angry geezer' ranting away randomly here from the hinterlands of Dixie? Because I've seen the tragedies resulting from such an ideology up close & personal. The dearly loving couple, deeply religiously devout who missed out on having children of their own. It took years for them to realize that despite being yes, happily married, they actually had to consummate the marriage, to have any prospect of children & births. Yes, really. And no, I know this does not likely apply to anyone here. But strangely enough, it remains possible if someone does not tell these firm 'abstainers' the score. Again, it's the underlying reality of life as it's lived that needs some awareness.

    Sex In marriage is & always has been& should be a blessing & a grace. It is special and it's fine to 'wait for that one' to be able to enjoy it all together. But in a limited 'reproductive career' of about 20 years, it remains a serious gamble waiting for just that one. And it's getting much less common for that reason and many others too. Waiting to put all those eggs in one basket is just as serious a gamble as having sex for just the mere 'expression of love or affection'. Sometimes it works wonderfully, but it can go tragically wrong just as often as any other fragile & flawed human endeavor. Marriages may be blessed by the state, ordained by the church, and favored by fortune. But it's still deeply & tragically all too human. That's the underlying point here. And I'm certain that few are apprehending it adequately. But again, Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
  • susanawalsh
    Yes, the fertility question is a serious problem. And so is sexual dysfunction in relationships. I am concerned about the impact of TLW and other abstinence approaches on psychosexual health in young people. VJ, you and I have both known a couple who waited and then couldn't, or wouldn't consummate their marriage. If one waits too long, especially when so few others do, one does start to feel like a freak, and this cannot be good for sexual confidence in the future.

    On the other hand, reading the book Julie & Julia, I learned that Julia Child was a virgin at 40 when she met her husband Paul. And by all accounts, they had quite the ardent sex life. So it happens, but it's not the norm by a long shot.
  • susanawalsh
    "A fleeting assurance of their worth." Well put. So very fleeting. Whether we choose to have sex or not, casually or with our spouses, it should never be an assurance of our worth. verie44, your final comment is an inspiring end. I have loved The Wild Rumpus of this post. Most commented post ever! I hope you will all come back and discuss other posts here. And for those who have just stumbled upon this conversation, there is no expiration date! It's never to late to weigh in.
  • vera44
    The last thing I'm going to say:

    I think females in this society increasingly do not have the protection of a family unit, or a values system to moderate their behavior and decision-making. Add to this the state of men hooking up with no commitment so women fear not being able to hold onto a man and the media, who make females (with no value / belief system of their own) so insecure, it's no wonder they give away their bodies so freely for a fleeting assurance of their worth.

    At least in terms of the media, don't believe any of it. The media images of perfect women is constructed to make money off you. The model body type was chosen as the ideal because it's the least common -- there are statistically the least women in the world with both a tall & very thin frame because it's not smart in terms of evolution. So these models are sold to women with products that are supposed to get you closer to that ideal. They get the largest market share of women feeling insecure and buying their goods that way.

    Don't believe it. It's not real. I've seen some of the considered most beautiful women in the world in person without makeup (Shakira, Charlotte from Sex & the City, Molly Sims, Kirsten Dunst, Scarlett Johansson, Kate Hudson, Gwyneth Paltrow, Emily Blunt, Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell, just to name a few) and they are just people. Without their famous status & red carpet dresses & makeup teams, you wouldn't look twice at them on the street beyond a glance you'd give a pretty girl. It's all fake, for the women who are out there. Ever wonder why you never see people looking as good as models on TV in the street, even in a beautiful place like New York City? They don't exist without 10 hours of prep time, that's why.

    Everyone (including famous people) has trouble spots -- if you have a perfect body, you have wrinkles around your eyes and thin hair. If you have the best set of breasts anyone's ever seen, you have fat thighs and crooked teeth.

    All you can do is love yourself, keep your self esteem, don't let anyone else decide what's right for you & don't believe the hype.
  • Jacqueline
    I just wanted to say a final thank you to everyone who has commented here, before I sign off (I think the topic has been somewhat exhausted by now!). As they say, "variety is the spice of life," and I truly think that regardless of some of the snark and literary jabs that have been going on here from all ends of the spectrum, these differences in opinion make the post and the topic itself even more interesting than I ever would have imagined. So I appreciate everyone's input, and of course, am grateful to Susan for letting me share my thoughts on this fantastic site in the first place.

    Best wishes to all,
    Jacqueline
  • Jacqueline
    Can someone point out to me where anyone explicitly says he/she wishes to remain an "eternal child" and/or forever "innocent?" Because I'm pretty sure I didn't. Cheers & Good Luck to you, VJ.
  • Kate
    I know quite a few longterm virgins, and I suspect behind the chastity vows is an unhealthy fear of commitment and getting hurt.

    The longer you wait, the harder it gets, cause now you have all these unrealistic expectations that your first time is going to be like a trip to heaven and with someone you'll be with for, like, forever.

    So you keep waiting...thinking if you wait, then you'll never get hurt. That's not how life should work and no way to live.
  • vera44
    If I considered VJ's points as valid at this point, I would respond but I honestly don't give people the time of day who create arguments from what they wish other people had said (no one said anything about being innocent forever, nice try at again trying to infantilize virgins) so they'd have something good to say in return. So I will respond to Kate.

    Where was the mention by anyone that they expected sex to be this amazing, transcendental thing? Again, wild speculation on your part. I don't have any of those expectations. Also, why should it get harder? I don't have any ideas that people won't judge me as I get older and they should -- that's how people decide what works for them. I'm not particularly trying to make my life easier, I'm trying to live it the way I want. So that "it only gets harder" point doesn't really apply to me -- anyone who thinks I'm a freak can think it, they can scream it from the rooftops. I don't give a damn.

    I love this too: "thinking if you wait, then you'll never get hurt." I keep telling everyone, and it doesn't seem to get through, that I am more than willing to engage in a relationship with someone and handle all of these disappointments, hurts, etc, but only within a relationship in which I am comfortable, which means marriage for me. Why is this so hard to understand? If I met the right person tomorrow and we got married, I would gladly jump headfirst into the relationship.

    Also I'm wondering now why everyone has SUCH a problem with the way virgins live their lives? As Jacqueline said, it's my decision, not yours. You all should really examine why my beliefs cause all of you on this board so much anger, attempts to justify why I'm crazy, etc. Think about it.
  • VJ
    Yep. Well said there! No matter how we try to avoid it, we'll be hurt & disappointed by life, and by many people in our lives. Then there's the sex part! New venues for both tragedy, comedy & joy. But I strongly suspect that it's this over riding fear of almost everything involved in sex that's what's behind all too much of this. And that's irredeemably sad & as Rebekah notes misguided too. It's the wish to remain eternal children or at least 'child-like & innocent', which of course sadly is mostly incompatible with many of the requirements & necessities of adulthood & 'real life'. And few of those involved will ever seemingly admit this or even acknowledge it as a faint possibility. Reality need never enter into the argument evidently! Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
  • Kate
    I'm with Benjamin. You need to become a woman. Virgin at 24? This is too silly. Sex is a rite of passage. And everything that comes with is what makes up human EXPERIENCE!
  • BonySony
    Rebekah - I think you're right in your argument - being a virgin is a choice and with all choices in life - one is going to be judged for those choices- its only human nature!! Wheels are always turning when something surprises us! Its what we choose to do with the info at hand that makes any difference at all.....
  • BonySony
    Hi Susan – I really don’t have a clear answer to why I haven’t slept with anyone up to this point in my life – of course I want the experience to be meaningful - For me that would be with someone who knows me well and who I feel comfortable with and hopefully will see more than just one night – I’m not waiting for marriage but I am waiting for a someone who I can have true relationship with whether it ends in marriage – I don’t know. To be honest I started dating after college so it took some time to figure myself out as well as what I wanted out of a relationship with guy – until then I really didn’t think of sleeping with anyone…

    One of my friends last year lost her virginity to a guy – she was 28, granted this girl came from a strict Indian family and had a traditional mindset when I met her in college but as she grew up- she started realizing what was better for herself – she dated around – 2 of them she dated for more than a year but never slept with either one of them – then last year she met this guy and in 3 months she slept with him – they’ve been dating over a year now and in the beginning after she slept with him he had told her that he doesn’t know if he ever wants to get married (the ol ‘college friend would have walked away at that point)– but they still continue to date. I asked her - why this guy and not the other two – she said regardless of what he said about not knowing if he wants to get married – the way she felt around him, him bringing out the best in her and so forth – made all the difference – I’m not sure if they will get married but I know she has the relationship she wants and that makes all the difference.
  • susanawalsh
    Bonysony, I wish you all the best! I admire your strength and conviction, as you are standing up to powerful cultural forces to maintain your standards.
  • I am just going to throw my two cents out there, knowing full well it will probably piss some people off, but here goes.

    I grew up in a pretty religous home. I am a former preachers daughter, so the idea of sex before marriage was a BIG no-no. And frankly one I never understood or agreed with.

    Several mentioned wanting to be "in love" when they had sex for the first time. What does that even mean? That is like the teenage notion of wanting it to be the right place, timing, mood. I don't know about the rest of you but my first time was awkward, messy and a little embarassing. Does it make it any less "special"? No, it just makes it realistic. Waiting for Mr. Right or Mr. Perfect to come along and give your virginity to is a misguided idea.

    In my opinion waiting until marriage to have sex is irresponsible. Let's say you wait until marriage and you discover the sex sucks. You try for months to get into a rythmn or groove, but it just is not happening. And now you are stuck with bad sex for the rest of your life. I'm sorry, but no thank you. Had you had sex before this wouldn't have happened. You would have been armed with knowledge, and you could have chosen to end it, which I would have, before you even walked down the aisle, or you could go ahead and marry, and pray that somewhere down the road it got better or tolerable. I know sex is not the most important thing in a relationship, but it is a BIG deal, especially in a marriage.

    I was 20 when I lost my virginity. I hadn't waited that long for any religous reason. It just hadn't happened for me yet. My best friend was 31 when she lost her virginity. The guy I lost my virginity to never knew he was my first, and I don't even remember his last name. I'm 33 and I have had a grand total of 3 sex partners! People have judged me at some point and time for all of those facts. I simply don't care.

    Have sex or stay a virgin, that is your choice. But if you choose to stay a virgin into your 20s, especially your late 20s and early 30s, then be prepared to be judged and questioned about it, because it is no longer the societal norm.
  • susanawalsh
    Thanks, Rebekah, wise words as always. I can't help but observe that in this conversation, the Mature folks have a more measured view about Mr. Right than the younguns do. (Sorry, even tho you're only 33, I'm sticking you in my generation, haha). I do think the difference is in experience having relationships. Of course, we would like to save them the trouble of the same heartaches we lived through. I've learned with my own two kids this is not possible, sadly. You'd think with my constant nagging, I mean, wise counsel, they'd have made great choices. Nope.
  • Bonysony
    Hi Susan & Jacqueline & the rest of you commentators....

    Interesting post, I feel I should contribute being a virgin myself - 29 y/o - YIKES!! After reading most of the comments - I agree with Dilithium in particular- its true when I was young I was defensive about telling guys that I hadn't slept anyone because of the reactions I was getting. However as I got older I realized that these perceptions by guys that I was getting had nothing to do with me personally - its based on something that is not my fault just my decision. It's a decision I made and a guy is who is willing to understand my reasons is a guy who is going to take some time to know me and my reasoning for make decisions which is ultimately what I want out of a relationship. My best friend who is in her double digits as far sleeping with men goes - is happy with her decisions & I support her and she knows herself in order to have casual sex! I think we all have reasons for our decisions whether is keeping your virginity for marriage or choosing an unknown career path - the thing is you are always going to be judged - and its only human nature to be judged but its acting on judgement thats what gets everyone in trouble. Most of us are smart enough not to do that but every once in a while - someone slips!

    Ironically a couple years ago in medical school class there was a cute jock (tall, green eyes, broad shoulders) in my class who all the girls went crazy for - as for me he was great eye candy in class to get through Micro but I never thought anything who happen btw us - well last day of finals party came and of course medical student + alcohol = RAGING HORMONES - Well me and Mr. Jockgot together - he found a way to spend the night and I distinctly remember telling him- You're not going to get what you think you're going to get meaning sex obviously - He acted clueless and I eventually blurted out that I was still a virgin and he said to me - ME TOO! - I literally fell off the bed in disbelief - I mean ex-college football player was virgin!!! NO WAY!! I'm a virgin judging another virgin! Regardless we dated for a couple months & I remember telling my best friend and she was sooo excited because she thought yeah 2 virgins getting together - the thing is at the time and still I feel this way - I don't expect to meet any virgin men and if they are thats wonderful but that is not the only thing I look into when being with someone - in his case he was Christian and was waiting till he got married, whereas I myself am born Hindu - I believe in Karma and thats the extent of my Hindu knowledge so I not am virgin based on religious beliefs.

    I guess my point is that as I got older I didn't let my virginity define me - if guys want to know the reason I haven't slept with anyone - I have no problems telling them - its their choice to try and understand my reason or to realize they want something purely physicial and leave. Regardless most men will have respect whether they decide to stay or go - you just have to try not to take it personal - it's their decision!! I think as long as you are confident with your decision, confortable in your skin - most men will see that and become interested - if on the other hand you become defensive with your decision men see that too. I think its possible to be a realist and still look for something special at same time! Bravo to you Jacqueline!
  • Jacqueline
    Thanks for your post Bonysony - what a great story!

    Total bravo to you as well.
  • susanawalsh
    Bonysony, nice to meet you! I love all the new commenters with this post! I also love the story about your football player. I am curious though - if your choice to remain a virgin is not religiously based, what is it about?

    In any case, your maturity, based on your experience, is evident here, and I'm really happy for you that you are at peace with both your choice and your prospects to find someone who will love you for who you are.
  • vera44
    Hmm, I didn't know that about America -- I thought it was the norm in the 50s to not have premarital sex. But fine, let's say that one study is true despite what I have heard & what the general perception of the 50s by most of America is. Why was it common to politely lie about it in the first place? The need to cover it up means that it was once a very strong social more in the US, maybe not in the 50s, but before that, almost certainly.

    In any case, my point in bringing up other societies was to rebuttal your point that I am unknowledgeable of human relationships just because I don't subscribe to your narrow (American) view of them, not to hold up Muslim countries as a shining beacon of what we should all aspire to in terms of social treatment of women. Last time I checked, we were talking about sexual relationships, not expounding and making huge sweeping generalizations about Muslim countries. Again, stop taking my comments out of context or I will just consider you ridiculous and stop taking you seriously, since you are creating so many "ad hoc" arguments & putting words into my mouth.

    As you said, you're doing nothing for your own argument, so I'm not sure what place your last comment has on this board.
  • susanawalsh
    verie44, I think it's tricky to use Muslim countries as an example. The truth is, most societies where women are chaste are severely repressive wrt women's rights. It's not difficult to remain a virgin when the penalty for violating that norm is death by stoning.

    On Thanksgiving I wrote a post that highlighted the sexual conduct of the Pilgrims in the late 17th c. Academics estimate that the rate of premarital sex in Plymouth Colony was as high as 50%, despite very severe punishments if one was discovered fornicating before marriage (or had a baby less than 9 months afterwards).

    We do tend to think of rampant premarital sex as a modern phenomenon, and perhaps the numbers today (90%?) are higher than ever before. This is to be expected due to the availability of birth control, which lessens the consequences of sex.
  • VJ
    Again, verie44, we miss something in translation. Worse, you're arguing with someone who knows the history here. Fifty years ago? Remaining a virgin until marriage was still uncommon in the US. It was yes, 'traditional' to politely lie about such matters however. [See/search for some of the research here: http://www.guttmacher.org/].

    And again, your perfect right to do what you please with your body. Forever. Or until they change the interpretation of what 'privacy' means in the US Constitution. (Which for all we know, might disappear next year, but in a complete hazard analysis, that seems still a bit unlikely yet).


    But again the concept of female chastity (and it's always focused on the females), has ever been a concern for almost all cultures. Some of the more rigidly 'rules' based & authoritarian ones do still tend to be Muslim to this day. They are often not thought of as worthy of much emulation in their regard for the status or rights of women, but hey, there's always a strange appeal to some I guess. And some are amendable to immigration as long as you convert (& marry probably) too.


    "Cultural norms vary greatly depending on where you live". Yes, perhaps. But less so in the US than elsewhere too. Especially with regards to this aspect of our culture too. And we have the health stats to prove that.

    And of course the ever so 'sexy' & still somewhat popular Mormon polygamy has been officially outlawed by US Federal Law for about 100 years, and prior to that had been disavowed by the Church fathers in 1890. But yes, they're still pretty conservative, especially with regards to sex roles. But still? They're 'Merikns as they'd say. Fully subject to all those silly American laws that everyone enjoys & labors under. So you're right. You no longer can be held under the equivalent 'chattel slavery' laws here in the US. No matter who might deeply desire this outcome. But hey, in Saudi Arabia & few other hot places? You still might be.

    I don't see this advancing anyone's argument here though. We all live in the here & now. Let's start the premise from that, OK? History's a spent force. Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
  • VJ
    To verie44 & Jacqueline, OK let's take this as slowly as we might. With bullet points.

    1.) I'm a strong supporter & believer in marriage. It's efficacy, it's continuance as a cultural standard, and yes, even it's advisability under certain circumstances.

    2.) I'm also a believer in the utility of chastity, under most rational circumstances, and especially for children, juveniles, and non adults generally. (Please do not this is a bit different than 'abstinence', as you might understand).

    3.) I've known virgins in similar circumstances who would not even deign to date, given the strictness of their conception of 'abstinence'. (They would never allow themselves to even get excited much). So this from verie44? Is to be generally commended: "I had a boyfriend, I am currently dating, I enjoy men". So bravo for all that. It'll help you figure this all out for yourself in the end, hopefully.

    4.) No one's asking you to do this: "I'm just unwilling to have that relationship in which risk is so high on terms that make me uncomfortable."

    What is unknown is just how your perception of relative risk will change down the years. What might have looked like a perfectly 'dangerous'/'unworthy' prospect to you once, may be the common fodder of who you might be dating some years from now. Sounds strange, right? Think of some folks the first time they flew. Many are scared witless they might crash & burn. But most? The overwhelming majority, not only live though the experience, they often thrive because of it. (I'm able to travel to more distant cities quickly!) It's like that. Often. Risk and the perception of same changes. And often objectively too. Small planes are more dangerous than the larger jets. No matter who's flying them. Ditto for substance abusing BF's/GF's. Objectively, more dangerous than 'average'.

    5.) "And in any case, it only takes one person. I remain hopeful of finding him."

    Me too actually. I recall begging my friend to at least try to seriously 'date' in order to try & discover & meet other (relatively) chaste & religious men that might be to her liking, to no avail. So yes, it's no crime to remain single, even forever. But again, that's not what TLW was all about, and it's not exactly a commonly accepted religious stance almost anywhere. Strangely enough, outside the now quiet closed & shuttered convents that is.

    So again I'll wish you Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
  • vera44
    Yes, VJ, I do disagree with you. Now let's look at your argument: "And yes, I'm sorry, but several aspects of the essential argument here show a level of immaturity and lack of realistic knowledge of human relationships & especially romantic ones."

    You can't make blanket statements like that without pointing out exactly what about my argument shows a level of immaturity.

    And a lack of realistic knowledge of human relationships & romantic ones? That's a flawed statement at every level. Human relationships is quite a big undertaking, VJ. In Morocco and some other Muslim countries, men & women can be killed for having sex outside of marriage. Cultural norms vary greatly depending on where you live. Just 50 years ago, it was considered taboo in the US as well, and is still considered shameful in communities like the Mormon community in Utah. So I consider your "ignorant of human relationships and romantic ones" argument void, because there are just so many examples that counter that back MY views up and say that YOURS are ridiculous. And yes, while it may not be the norm or average in the US, who really wants to have an average relationship? That means divorced within 5-10 years, with a partner you felt you settled for, etc. Who doesn't want better than the average?
  • VJ
    This should read above:

    Seldom does real life meet our perfect ideals, nor conform to all our most earthly desires. It can come close enough to please, comfort, content & perhaps even astound at times."


    Sorry for any confusion! Cheers, 'VJ'
  • susanawalsh
    "My wife had to have one basic requirement: she had to be as smart or smarter than me."

    Women, don't miss this in the heat of the argument. Here speaks a man with a rare respect for women. Many men will happily forfeit intelligence in a woman to gain access to other, earthly desires. My own husband feels this same way, but I have heard men say the opposite many, many times.

    The truth is, the brain is the most important sex organ. Yes, people can find that they are incompatible sexually when they otherwise are well-suited to each other. (To be blunt, most women love oral sex, but may find themselves in love with a man who won't do it. That could be a dealbreaker, or maybe they can work it out. Sexual compatibility is real.)

    However, a meeting of the minds can be an incredibly sexy thing, too, as it generates attraction and desire.
  • VJ
    Well that's more like it, we need some honest disagreements here, not all cloaked in the natural respectability of the stance, etc. It makes things a tad more interesting.

    Again, let's start from the top. Jacqueline says:

    "Everyone has different standards and basic requirements they'd like their potential partner to meet. And some people are choosier/pickier than others, which perhaps you see as naive or immature or unrealistic; but essentially, that doesn't really matter because in the end, it's not up to you - it's up to me."

    We're agreed on that premise. For me? My wife had to have one basic requirement: she had to be as smart or smarter than me. And that was & is a decent enough start for a fine foundation to a long and enduring marriage.

    So again while I can admire aspects of your chastity 'vows' here, and even agree with them to a point? It's how they're manifested in the real world and the consequences of same that are of topical concern here.

    But yes, this is demonstrative of the hazard model I spoke of: "Finally, I'm going to have to stick up for verie44 here. Not once did she ever say or even imply that there isn't much of an advantage to having a boyfriend or that boys are "yuck!" disgusting. She isn't seven years old, so let's not try and make her out to be. The way I see it, for me, is simply Risk & Reward, one of the oldest basic models. Why would I take such a risk for a guy I don't really know will be worth the trouble? And furthermore, how will I know whether he's worth the trouble if he won't even commit the way I'd like him to commit to me?"

    And yes, I'm sorry, but several aspects of the essential argument here show a level of immaturity and lack of realistic knowledge of human relationships & especially romantic ones. Which again is perfectly natural and to be expected. Experience is your only guide here, sadly enough. A lack of experience & yes, knowledge at older ages is indeed a separate hazard in & of itself, however it might go unrecognized. Are they worth the risk? Maybe, maybe not. You're probably right, most people/men might not be according to your lights. But who’s to say what all this might look like in 10-20 years? Omega man has a glimpse there, as do some others.

    But here's wishing you all all the best in your journey of discovery. I know it's an exciting & yes confusing adventure. In the end most of us are happy we took the chances we did & risked something for love. Not the ersatz kind, but the real stuff. Damaged, flawed, sometimes hurtful, growing, incomplete, learning, questing, searching, though it might be. We can seek 'ideal' perfection in life, or we can seek real life partners. Seldom does real life meet our perfect ideals, nor conform to our all or most earthly desires. It can come close enough to please, comfort, content & perhaps even astound at times.

    But again, real life has real requirements down here on our earthly existence. Sadly & tragically enough these are often deceptively coupled with our highest achievements and our greatest joys. The lovely well adjusted & loved children from a now dissolved marriage. The relaxing sport fly fishing you learned from your now evil bankster BF while having a wonderful vacation in Wyoming. The wonderful collection of knitting you have from that useful ex GF. That's life. In the end? You've really got to get out there & live it, and stop fearing it enough to manage to make your way in the world as an fully functional adult. Now how’s that for being an condescending old fart? Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
  • vera44
    This to VJ: You are a bad debater. You're taking my argument and turning it into something it's not: I had a boyfriend, I am currently dating, I enjoy men. Your point that I'm somehow not up for enjoying a relationship because I'm too infantile to understand (I love the comment "even...Yuck!...associating with guys") is ridiculous & patronizing. Don't drag other commenters who have said nothing of the sort into the mix.

    You are implying that because I refuse to have a relationship fraught with hazard, peril, etc the mainstream way by having sex first and then figuring out whether we like each other, I'm doomed to be alone. (Horrors!) I'm just unwilling to have that relationship in which risk is so high on terms that make me uncomfortable. Any guy that doesn't like it can leave, in fact, I gladly show them the door. It hasn't worked out for me yet, but I have been proposed to before (so technically if marriage was my only aim, I could have been married by now). It was just the wrong person for me. And in any case, it only takes one person. I remain hopeful of finding him.
  • susanawalsh
    "You are implying that because I refuse to have a relationship fraught with hazard, peril, etc the mainstream way by having sex first and then figuring out whether we like each other, I'm doomed to be alone."

    Excellent point. In the hookup culture, physical intimacy comes first, emotional intimacy may follow (though it often doesn't). This is the biggest problem with currently accepted sexual norms for all women, regardless of their view of sex before marriage. There are very, very few women who would prefer this model, but we are stuck with it for the foreseeable future.

    Of course, we have the power to change it over time by closing our legs to unworthy partners. I do believe that women need to return to being the gatekeepers of sex. I've said so many times. No woman wants to be the only one following this rather boring and high-risk strategy (isn't risk supposed to be fun?). Until women stop acting against their own interests, this problem will remain.

    However, nearly all women are willing to have sex before marriage with the right partner. It is incumbent on men to be forthright and direct in their dealings with women, so that women can make an informed choice about sex, rather than hoping for the best, or even being deceived into "giving it up" for some guy who will proceed to disappear.
  • ExNewYorker
    Hi Susan,

    I agree that women are supposed to be the gatekeepers, and it seems that with hookup culture, the gatekeeping function has been thrown out the window. I'll have to disagree on one point. You cannot assume that the men will be forthright and direct...there are too large a percentage who won't do that so it really is incumbent on the woman to be a gatekeeper. And the reality is that it's not that hard to spot the cads and wannabe alphas (as well as asshole betas, which there are as well). I think women need to "trust, but verify", and not front load the sex part with the expectation of the relationship coming afterwards.

    Now, of course, there are probably a lot of women who won't like hearing that, or who just want to have fun, but for a woman who doesn't want to be just another notch and wants something more, then the best approach really is to establish the relationship slowly and then let the physical side come later once she is comfortable the relationship is a real one. Now this means some work and patience, but one generally needs to do that with any worthwhile endeavour.
  • novaseeker
    Why is that incumbent upon men? Why not assume that most men who are having sex with you very early in a relationship may very well not be interested in a relationship at all -- or at least that there can be no rational assumption that sexual activity is an indicator of relationship interest coming from a man. If women made that assumption -- which seems a healthy one based on the market currently -- perhaps fewer would be burned in this regard?

    There will always be guys who will tell women what they want to hear and so something else later on (this is not new, really ... cads have always existed). The difference today is that, as you say, sex is front-loaded into relationships. It seems to me that the simple way to change that is for women to be less eager sexually early on in relationships until a relationship has been established which she is comfortable with. That seems like a much less risky approach than expecting men to be forthcoming, if in fact they are seeking sex for its own sake.
  • susanawalsh
    Men’s mating repertoire consists of three tactics: honest advertisement and courtship, deceptive advertisement and courtship, and coercion. (from Sex, Power and Conflict, ed. David Buss). Coercion = rape, we can dismiss that. So it is part of human nature for man to use deceit to gain access to sex. It's not admirable, but we know it's common. Of course women would prefer honest advertisement and courtship.

    It is true that many women go into sexual experiences with "no questions asked." It hardly seems logical to ask a guy you just met if he wants a relationship with you. That is on her. It's not reasonable for a woman to have any expectations whatsoever in a random hookup, and many women engage in wishful thinking here.

    However, it is also true men commonly use deceit. This often means acting like relationship material until you score, then it's one-and-done. Douchebag guys are adept at pretending to offer signals of genuine caring to get women into bed.

    Your advice to women is right on target, though, in two ways. First, it makes sense to assume NOTHING about a man's character until you have had an opportunity to know him more than just sexually. If you risk it, you're on your own. Secondly, yes, women need to be intelligent about engaging in sex too early in a relationship. It's risky in all the ways we've discussed, but also:

    Anticipation makes the hard-on longer. ~Itsby Stevintary
  • ExNewYorker
    Yes, deceit is commonly used by men, but that's life, and one has to learn how to spot that and deal with it, but as I mentioned earlier "trust, but verify". It requires some work and patience, but anything worthwhile takes some work. A guy pretending to offer signals of caring isn't going to hang around for that long if he can't get the quick sex. And frankly, shouldn't the women be taking some time to figure the guy out, to learn about his friends and family, seeing how he acts with other people in his life and work? Now of course, if womens' attitude is: "the guy is the cute bad boy from the Finance Department, and it's their third date", then of course the douchebag can pretend to be genuinely caring over the short span of time they've interacted.

    Work and patience.
  • susanawalsh
    Agreed! Work and patience. Trust but verify. This saves enormous time (during your prime) in the end.
  • VJ
    [That above somehow posted earlier than I had wanted, sorry!]

    I wanted to say I thought Ladyinthecity makes some decent points here. In response verie44 says this: "Sexual maturity does not take time to develop. It naturally happens with people you're comfortable with as long as you're comfortable with yourself." And follows with "My last boyfriend told me I was much more uninhibited & fun in bed than any of the girls he'd ever dated."

    These may not be related or even coincident behaviors. Sex & sexual performance is a learned behavior, and as such it takes yes, much actual practice to 'get' any good at it. Really. It can (and indeed often does) take years before you can learn how to participate effectively or even joyfully. Yes, you might actually get pregnant from a 'hit & run' deal, but again, it might take some years before you realize just how you can participate more joyfully & adding to the experience.

    But this was the cake from verie44 :

    "And for me to put my emotional health (and therefore my ability to function & achieve my career goals) at risk, I want someone who is also willing to put themselves at risk. For me, that risk is sex. For him, that risk is marrying me. Otherwise, it's a really bad deal for the girl. You get to get all emotionally involved & he gets to decide whether he likes you during the relationship, maybe splits with you later? I don't think so -- men don't bond like women do biologically, so why should I take that risk in the name of experience? Sounds shitty."

    Yep. Logically in Public Health contexts this is known as the 'hazard model' of human interactions. Everything is defined by the hazard it might entail, require or precipitate, and each action is judged on such a scale. So if there's never much of an advantage seen in having BF's? Or even (Yuck!) associating with guys? (EEEK they don't Bond like women do!) This is probably not going to end especially well for you. If you don't see the point of it all at yes your relative youthful height of your attractiveness to the opposite sex now (and vise versa)? Then this entire 'crazy' enterprise, which is forever fraught with storied unknowns and deep emotional perils will perhaps always remain an 'unknown and foreign country' to you.

    This again is what Ladyinthecity & Omega man are speaking to I suspect. This effective translation brought to you by the Original Babelfish! Cheers, 'VJ'
  • Jacqueline
    VJ:

    I don't want to intrude on verie44's argument as I'm sure she is perfectly capable of responding on her own, but I will speak for myself and most likely for many other women in my situation.

    First of all, you have absolutely no merit to speak about why we broke up with our "tender, understanding, and loving" boyfriends. In all of my case(s), it had nothing to do with sex. I repeat - nothing. Therefore, your comment about not being able to meet these "types" as we grow older is somewhat irrelevant. It's not as though every time I part with one of these guys, I'm frantically running around trying to spot and then land another one because the supply is dwindling (nor should I be expected to be doing that). I'm not at all scared that I won't keep meeting guys like that in the future; in fact, I'm confident I'll meet several more of them. As for them becoming rare, I don't think it's so much that it'll become less likely for a guy to be okay with virginity as much as it'll be that he probably won't have to think about it in the first place since more and more girls are losing their virginity at an earlier age.

    Secondly, yes you know of "several couples who married as virgins and who quickly found out to their absolute horror or chagrin that they were utterly & completely incompatible with one another. Physically, intimately & sexually."

    I also know several couples (actually, hundreds) who married as NON-virgins and who quickly found out to their absolute horror or chagrin that they were utterly & completely incompatible with one another. My point being? With the divorce rate currently what it is and what it will inevitably become, I personally don't think using virginity as such a significant indicator of partner compatibility is particularly reliable.

    Finally, I'm going to have to stick up for verie44 here. Not once did she ever say or even imply that there isn't much of an advantage to having a boyfriend or that boys are "yuck!" disgusting. She isn't seven years old, so let's not try and make her out to be. The way I see it, for me, is simply Risk & Reward, one of the oldest basic models. Why would I take such a risk for a guy I don't really know will be worth the trouble? And furthermore, how will I know whether he's worth the trouble if he won't even commit the way I'd like him to commit to me?

    Everyone has different standards and basic requirements they'd like their potential partner to meet. And some people are choosier/pickier than others, which perhaps you see as naive or immature or unrealistic; but essentially, that doesn't really matter because in the end, it's not up to you - it's up to me.
  • VJ
    Susan says: "Funny you should mention this as a topic for a post - I've been working on one along the lines of: What Nice Guys Need to Know to Finish First. Stay tuned!"

    And earlier:
    "He has the qualities women seek in a long-term mate: intelligence, emotional sensitivity, loyalty, stability, faithfulness, willingness to demonstrate love. He is as physically attractive to women as Alpha douchebags are - perhaps even moreso".

    Mmm maybe not! Time & time again in the above comments we hear from the ladies that they did indeed have such tender, understanding & even yes, loving BF's who were willing to wait. Only to be ultimately rejected by these ladies after 6 months or so! Many times over. Now yes, that's your (& everyone's) perfect right. But no, they're probably not making more of those types as everyone gets older. They only get much more rare generally.

    And yes, for the record? I know of several couples who married as double virgins (at least to each other), and who quickly found out to their absolute horror or chagrin that they were utterly & completely incompatible with one another. Physically, intimately & sexually. And folks? You really, really don't want to waste so many years and not learn this yes, critical & crucial information about your potential mate. Because you might not ever really forgive yourself for your lack of finding this out earlier.
  • vera44
    In my experience, you're wrong. I can't speak for the guys Jacqueline has dated, but a lot of the time when the guys last past the first couple of dates, they have left me. My ex and I broke up because at that point, I was where Jacqueline is -- I just wanted to have sex with someone I loved. My ex didn't want to, he didn't love me like I loved him and felt like he should marry me if we did have sex even though I insisted I didn't need it. In this case, he decided he knew better than what I was telling him and listened to his gut. I'm glad he did -- he thought about me above him getting his rocks off. But we broke it off mostly because I moved and at the time, I thought him not loving me at that point meant he would never love me. Probably a mistake on my part, I don't know. It's a null point because I moved anyway.

    You said 6 months? That seems like the magic time because that's about the point when the guys who are pretending to like you to have sex with you realize that you're serious and are not changing your mind, and can't take anymore / split, in my experience.

    And you're also wrong about finding people that are willing to wait. Again, it's about finding the right person. I've found a good amount of people who respect my decision, and you know what they all had in common? They all really liked me, and they all were ready for a real relationship. Remove either one (or both) of those and you are left with someone who will split super early. But I'd rather they leave quickly than hang around because I'm giving them sex only to have me heartbroken later on when they can't commit. That's what happens, in my opinion, to 99% of women. Or they have to cajole/beg their boyfriends to marry them and the guy finally agrees because it's comfortable or they're tired of dating, and settle down with the girlfriend. The problem is that they never really cherish & love them the same way -- there's not as much romance or excitement.

    I am surprised you know of several couples who were double virgins who found out they were completely incompatible -- was it an arranged marriage? Because the dating period is supposed to weed out the people you are completely incompatible with. I'm just removing the actual penetrative sex component of things, not the personality or personal beliefs component. You can figure that out without having sex, or have some sexual things go on to figure out whether you are physically compatible. I don't know a single couple that waited that regrets it. They're all glad they waited.
  • Dilithium
    Jacqueline -- Here's something for you to ponder, maybe.

    Personally, I would find it somewhat shocking to meet you, or to date you, since I cannot imagine a person in your situation having really good reasons to remain celibate until marriage.

    Now, go back and re-read that last sentence carefully: the key words are "I cannot imagine," and particularly "I cannot." My imagination is very limited, which is a lack or a failing in me, on my part; it is _not_ your failing or fault in any way. I would guess this is a trouble you run into with a lot of people: they lack the imagination to really appreciate someone with significantly different values from themselves. Their shortcoming may be your _problem_, in the sense that it leads to problems you have to deal with; but it is not your _fault_. Does this make sense?

    Now, when you say "Now I’m looking forward to losing my virginity to someone I love." I think you may be on a good path. Think of the image of yourself holding a really fine bottle of wine, maybe with a case in reserve. If you really appreciate wine, then you wouldn't just serve it alongside a take-out cheeseburger, would you? Not everyone is a wine fancier, of course; but if you are, then that's cool.

    Best of luck.
  • susanawalsh
    Dilithium, I love this comment! It is clever, effective and kind. I just wanted to say hey b/c I enjoyed interacting with you at Obsidian's blog - thanks so much for coming by!
  • Jacqueline
    I just would like to clarify one thing here since I feel it might not be getting across properly. I never say or write that Benjamin shouldn't have judged me. Yes, I say that I didn't like him psychoanalyzing me, but I completely and fully accept and respect that he is different from me and may decide that my choices are nonsensical. Were my feelings hurt? Yes. Did I want to kind of punch him in the face? Yes. But that is not because he judged me - it was because he was extremely insensitive. There is indeed a difference between judgement and rudeness. Same argument applies to my friends who told me I'd get divorced if I didn't sleep with my boyfriend/fiance first.
  • ladyinthecity
    Long-time reader, first time commenter!

    Susan, great blog. I have to admit, though, I find this conversation irritating because it's only discussing the extremes. Here's my take:

    1) Why do we keep complaining about the double-standard? Guys don't like virgins and they don't like sluts. Why are we, as women, frustrated by that? The majority of us fall into the middle...so...what was the problem again? I think the critical thing to understand here is that when guys say they want a pure woman, they don't mean a virgin...that's an extreme reaction to a vague statement. In my opinion, the best way to gain experience is to have a few long-term boyfriends.

    2) Again, on that double-standard: I would break up with a guy if he told me he was saving himself for marriage. I mean...what? I'm 28 and I've only had sex with a few guys (I'm a serial monogamist), but sexual maturity is just as important to me as emotional and intellectual maturity. And just like emotional maturity, sexual maturity takes time to develop. And developing that with more than one person is really helpful as you're growing, evolving, becoming more self-aware, more confident, and more (gasp!) giving, attentive, and loving. If I met an amazing guy and he told me "I'm waiting", to me, that would translate to "I'm putting off developing that part of myself until later on someday off". So, yeah. No double-standard.

    3) I think sometimes girls think of maintaining their virginity as a "good rule of thumb". These girls are really just masking fear with conviction, and I think they assume marriage is this safe-zone where there is no risk of heartbreak or abandonment. Of course, that's not what marriage really is (I'm not married, so I'm not an expert), but the only good relationships I've had involve constant vulnerability and exposure to risk - where you place your heart and body into someone else's hands. In my opinion, and what's worked for me (although I haven't had many, I've never regretted any of my sexual relationships) is to go with your gut and ask yourself two questions: 1) Do you trust this person? 2) If the relationship ended tomorrow, would you regret what you are doing tonight?

    4) What's up with this "Don't judge me" business? You go on a date with someone so you can mutually judge one another. It's his job to judge you. And yes, it's your job to judge him. Oh yeah, and you're an extreme outlier, of course he's going to judge you! That's like being 8 feet tall and wondering why everyone is looking at you.
  • vera44
    Hi Ladyinthecity,

    I understand your points perfectly, I've heard most of them from shocked guys I've told or who have tried to change my mind.

    1) I happened to take part in a conversation between a lot of guys at a party. They were a little tipsy and these guys got to the subject of sex and all of them unanimously said point blank that their ideal (to marry) would be a woman who's never had sex. These aren't beer guzzling, masochistic Nascar fans either, but very liberal guys who graduated from good schools with great jobs. And since I don't tell anyone but the people I am in relationships with that I am a virgin because most people think I will judge them, this was definitely not a nod to my status. I know that sounds chauvinistic, but it's been my experience that guys who are looking for someone as a life partner would prefer their girls with as little experience as possible.

    2) Sexual maturity does not take time to develop. It naturally happens with people you're comfortable with as long as you're comfortable with yourself. My last boyfriend told me I was much more uninhibited & fun in bed than any of the girls he'd ever dated. He said he was really shocked by it, because he expected me to suck, but it's not like I haven't seen porn or been exposed to mainstream society just like everyone else. He says most girls are somewhat ashamed of their bodies / won't keep the lights on or whatever. I have no hangups because no one has ever said anything critical to me & I haven't developed a sense of shame around sex. If you're a confident person, there's no reason you won't be amazing in bed even with little/no experience as long as you're with someone you like. I think the sexually amazing thing varies from person to person, and has nothing to do with virgin status or not.

    3. You can't be 24 and have maintained your virginity without a very strong commitment to not having sex and having thought out your reasoning dozens of times, to possibly the point of obsession. "Rule of thumb" doesn't hold up when you're getting hot & heavy and your body is screaming at you to put a penis in it already. So no, I would say that's completely off base.

    And for me to put my emotional health (and therefore my ability to function & achieve my career goals) at risk, I want someone who is also willing to put themselves at risk. For me, that risk is sex. For him, that risk is marrying me. Otherwise, it's a really bad deal for the girl. You get to get all emotionally involved & he gets to decide whether he likes you during the relationship, maybe splits with you later? I don't think so -- men don't bond like women do biologically, so why should I take that risk in the name of experience? Sounds shitty.
  • Jacqueline
    Interestingly enough, almost every single guy I have ever been physically intimate with has also distinctly said that I was more "uninhibited," "fun," and "confident" than any other girl they had ever hooked up with. Agreed: it's all about self-esteem, not your "number."
  • Ladyinthecity
    Ladies - good points all around. I regret making the remark about "rule of thumb" because it was dismissive and flippant. Both of you have obviously thought through your decisions thoroughly.

    Verie44 made an important point though:

    "And for me to put my emotional health (and therefore my ability to function & achieve my career goals) at risk, I want someone who is also willing to put themselves at risk. For me, that risk is sex. For him, that risk is marrying me. Otherwise, it's a really bad deal for the girl. You get to get all emotionally involved & he gets to decide whether he likes you during the relationship, maybe splits with you later? I don't think so -- men don't bond like women do biologically, so why should I take that risk in the name of experience? Sounds shitty."

    This is a classic case of using sex as currency: because you expect something else in return. From my experience, I've learned to treat sex as a gift: expect nothing in return except the joy of sharing it without someone you cherish. But of course, you don't just walk around giving gifts to random people! You give gifts to those who enrich your life, who make you feel comfortable enough to bring down that Wall of Scared.
  • vera44
    Everything is currency, I definitely expect something in return. This is the kind of selfless giving that is getting girls in trouble all over the world. YOU SHOULD EXPECT SOMETHING IN RETURN!! The only people who are benefitting from you believing this shouldn't be true or is somehow wrong are the people getting something for nothing -- men who are getting sex from you with no commitment. Do you work for nothing? If you somehow believed that you shouldn't expect a paycheck, who would you say would be benefitting? Your boss, obviously.

    Plus, even just from a strategic point of view if you don't believe me: who values something that's free? No one. If you have to pay for it, you value it more.

    Again, this sounds like a huge mindfuck to me -- don't fall for it.
  • Ladyinthecity
    I don't think we're on the same page when we say gift versus currency. Take a look at what I wrote:

    "But of course, you don't just walk around giving gifts to random people! You give gifts to those who enrich your life, who make you feel comfortable enough to bring down that Wall of Scared."

    You say "Plus, even just from a strategic point of view if you don't believe me: who values something that's free? No one. If you have to pay for it, you value it more." Say you give a family member an iPod as a gift. You think it'd be better to charge them? Just to make sure they value it more?

    Another point you make: "Do you work for nothing?". Honestly, I don't look at my job the same way I look at sex with a boyfriend. The notion of sex is work is that you should be paid for is ruining marriages left and right. Sex is not something for only men to enjoy and that you should withhold when they you don't get what you want. Is it not also for you?

    But I'm not really sure this discussion is about sex anymore. I think it's about fear and barriers in relationships. People put up all sorts of walls to protect themselves from the risk of emotional vulnerability. You're afraid to get bruised and battered and end up jaded, bitter and...closed off. But I think your fight to protect yourself and build walls as high as possible has actually resulted in you being exactly what you feared.

    Not all men are out to get you, steal your sex and run. Some are sweet and are earnestly searching for someone to grow, learn and love. Trust me, I've had the pleasure of being with a few! But just because a guy is nice doesn't mean it'll work out and he'll marry you. It's up to you to figure out if making yourself vulnerable to him is worth it.
  • vera44
    My point to make the work argument was to show you the only people that benefit from the beliefs you have about sex being something that should be free, no strings attached, are men. Just like you'd know your boss is taking advantage of you if work was free. It wasn't to compare sex and work in some twisted way. Sorry if that was confusing.

    Also, I don't think sex is to withhold when you don't get what you want, but I also don't think sex is to be given to keep a man around, which is what most people imply I should be doing. I don't think asking someone to like me for who I am rather than what I provide them is too much to ask. If I come to the point that I am ready to give them something that I consider sacred & special (sex), they should be ready to give me the same thing -- the equivalent for guys -- a commitment to me.

    And if you've read any of my other posts, you'd realize I really have enjoyed incredible relationships with amazing men and have nothing to be bitter about. The thing is, I'm happy with the way I am, I enjoy being carefree and fun when I meet a new guy and not having baggage to "get over" and trust him. I want to be able to trust my husband explicitly with no reservations, no what ifs? maybe is he sleeping with my best friend? I'm the least jealous person in the world because I literally wouldn't think of the fact that someone would cheat on me.

    What I worry about is acquiring baggage, so yes, I am closed off to opening myself to just anyone unless I know with as much certainty as I can that they're right for me, but as for jaded & bitter? You're telling someone who is saving herself for one person to marry her one day and (hopefully) live happily ever after that she's jaded & bitter? In what world is that jaded & bitter? I just have to laugh at that -- I don't even know how that reasoning could possibly have worked in your mind.

    But you know I really believe I've had such good experiences with men and trusting the right ones because without including sex in the picture, you can think rationally and make better decisions. There's no biological attachment, you can see when people are bad for you and leave after having decided they are not a good fit rather than languish in a bad relationship because you are literally addicted to them or can't see their flaws. It's a no brainer to me, honestly.
  • Ladyinthecity
    Sorry for the typos (it's late)! Here's that fourth paragraph if you couldn't read it the first time:

    Another point you make: "Do you work for nothing?". Honestly, I don't look at my job the same way I look at sex with a boyfriend. The notion of sex as work that you should be paid for is ruining marriages left and right. Sex is not something for only men to enjoy and that you should withhold when you don't get what you want. Is it not also for you?
  • susanawalsh
    Hey ladyinthecity, I am really happy to meet you. As you can imagine, I get to interact directly with just a small percentage of readers, so I really appreciate it when someone feels compelled to speak out! Jacqueline may have her own reply, but I wanted to address your comments too.

    We all hate the old sexual double standard (studs and sluts). You're right, though, it has shifted over time, and most men expect a woman to have some demonstrated interest in sex. My own sense is that a guy would not object to a woman's inexperience if she were willing to learn with him. In fact, as ExNewYorker stated above, this can work very well for two people who may not have a lot of experience. I think Benjamin bolted because Jacqueline communicated that she had taken a pledge to remain a virgin until marriage. Later she wished she could tell him that she would consider sex, but it just felt way too awkward, understandably. I'm in total agreement with you re the best way of getting experience. I think most women would prefer sex with a boyfriend, but many find that the supply of potential boyfriends is small and shrinking. At 28, hopefully you meet men who are interested in relationships, but at younger ages a lot of guys are all about no-strings sex, particularly in college.

    I would NEVER date a guy who didn't believe in sex before marriage. A close college friend of mine dated the same guy all four years. They were "college marrieds." She was totally game for sex, but he wouldn't have intercourse. They did everything but, week in and week out all the way through. But no penetration. I was a bridesmaid at their wedding, and guess what? She was seeking an annulment 6 months later. BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT INTERCOURSE EVEN AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED. OK, maybe this is an extreme example, I hope so! But all that wasted time! I would want to make sure of (and enjoy) sexual compatibility once we decided to be exclusive. But consider the source - my husband and I lived together for a couple of years before we got married, and as you probably know, we started as a one-night stand :-/

    "The only good relationships I've had involve constant vulnerability and exposure to risk - where you place your heart and body into someone else's hands."

    I love this, it's so true. That is scary, and when people get hurt they often wish they hadn't let themselves be so vulnerable, but the truth is, there is no joy without sorrow. We must experience each to understand the other. I also think your two questions are right on.

    With respect to the question of judging, I do feel this word is being used in a number of different ways in this discussion, which is confusing. Yes, we all expect to be observed and evaluated, which is being judged. However, I think what Jacqueline is trying to say is that she doesn't want to be judged negatively. She doesn't want to be made to feel like a circus freak, and that's fair. She made a choice about her own body for her own reasons, and was taunted and ridiculed by her girlfriends, and ultimately by Benjamin too. He has every right to walk away, respectfully saying it's just not for him. He handled it poorly, I think we can agree. I don't share Jacqueline's religious background - and I obviously have traveled a very different path, but I don't judge her as a freak, weirdo or idiot. As she points out in the post, we are all a product of our own individual upbringings and experiences.
  • ladyinthecity
    Great discussion you have going here, Susan! I just wanted to address a point you made:

    "many find that the supply of potential boyfriends is small and shrinking. At 28, hopefully you meet men who are interested in relationships, but at younger ages a lot of guys are all about no-strings sex, particularly in college."

    It was also like that when I was in college and in my early 20s. But in big cities (New York especially), the hook-up culture actually intensifies as we get older. Even my nice guy friends are well aware that girls our age are "desperate for a relationship" and take full advantage. The funny thing is, these guys always say "Once I find the right girl, I'll definitely treat her right". They don't realize that emotional availability isn't easy, and is something you have to practice over time. They truly believe they'll be able to flip a switch once Betty Draper shows up and become Perfect Husbands.

    Interestingly enough, I think women do the same thing, on the opposite end of the spectrum: they put up walls and implement fool-proof plans for avoiding pain/rejection/abandonment. But they, too, believe they'll flip a switch when Prince Charming arrives and suddenly become emotionally and physically available.

    The player and the virgin in some ways sound like two sides of the same coin. Both afraid, both risk averse, both paralyzed.
  • susanawalsh
    Very interesting thoughts here! I agree that both sexes have gotten pretty damned good at putting up walls and avoiding intimacy. It almost seems like a question of who is going to blink first. And meanwhile, the sexes drift further and further apart. I don't think it's just the player and the virgin caught in this dilemma. It's the vast majority of young people.

    I am sorry to hear your grim prognosis re hookup culture well into the post-college years. Ultimately, most people do get serious and look for a person to settle down with, but by then they're nearly 30, and may have NO practice at relationships.

    BTW, I would hardly call Betty Draper perfect - she is gorgeous, but such a cold fish! That marriage is obviously very dysfunctional, hopefully that won't be the model for future couples.
  • Jacqueline
    Hey LadyintheCity,

    I'm guessing that you live in New York too, and if not, perhaps another urban place. I think your statement about hook-up culture intensifying as we get older in NYC is a bit too general. I don't know of any studies that literally prove that theory, and to be honest, I think opinions on that matter truly depend on who you keep company with. For example, I've lived in the city for two years now and have been dating since the second week I got here. During all this time I've talked and spent time with many men, 90% of whom are actually more hesitant to hook up than they were back in college because they're actually beginning to think about marriage, consider women as their wives and not just a one-night-stand. Of course there are those guys who will perpetually be stuck in that do-it-and-dump 'em mindset, but in my personal experience, the behavior of the men I've been surrounded with have not been indicative of an "intensifying hook-up culture." And no, I'm not dating these guys anymore, but it was always because I realized in some form or another that they weren't for me. Not because I was "paralyzed" or "afraid" as you say. As I say in my article, everyone has different views based on who they're with, how they grew up, etc., and that's okay. In terms of views on sexuality, I really do think it's nurture, not nature.

    As for "flipping a switch" until Prince Charming comes along, I think that statement is a bit too breezy. I see myself as very emotionally and physically available - I like men. A lot. And, I love to date. I'm more than willing to engage in a serious relationship, I just haven't met the right person. And at the young age of 24, I'm not freaking out that I haven't met him yet. Just because I haven't given someone my virginity doesn't mean I'm "unavailable" and incapable of loving or being loved. My switch is on, and it's been on since I was about 18 years old. There's just no one I've wanted to shine my light on just yet.
  • susanawalsh
    I'm glad you raised the topic of age. 24 is very young! There is something troubling about discussing when it might be "too late." I didn't even set eyes on my husband until I was 25, and most of my women friends at that time met their husbands even later than that.

    I do think VJ makes a valid point on this issue, though. Women sometimes get so caught up in wanting the whole package, true love that knocks us off our feet, that we dismiss many viable relationships because they don't measure up to our standards. This is a problem because we derived these romanticized standards from a culture that profits from giving women dreams - chick lit, chick flicks, etc.
  • Jacqueline
    Hey Susan!

    I just want to say that actually - I never mentioned to Benjamin that I had planned on waiting until marriage. That conversation quoted in my piece is literally the conversation we had.

    "Wait. Are you a virgin?"
    "...Yes."

    Done.

    I guess since we're not Benjamin, we'll never really know what the deal was, but I think he was just scared of potential attachment issues and/or bad sexual chemistry.
  • susanawalsh
    OK, well now I hate that guy! He could have asked how you feel about it now! I don't know why I thought he feared the worst, i.e. no sex at all. I guess in a way I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'll have to go with ExNewYorker here - I'm sorry, but I definitely see the markings of a cad.
  • novaseeker
    Or, it could be something else. Maybe he *is* more of a cad type but it could also be that he didn't want to "damage" the writer here. I agree that his verbiage was mishandled, but it isn't necessarily the case that he was simply dismissing her as a poor sexual prospect. A true cad probably wouldn't care very much, after all, would he? One more notch on the bedpost, and a virgin to boot.
  • susanawalsh
    Yup, that's a valid point novaseeker. (Nice to see you here!) In calling him a cad, I was also referring to ExNewYorker's opinion that "fooling around with a stripper" might indicate a certain tendency toward Cad over Dad.

    It is one of those situations, regardless of the V. issue, where a guy disappears and a woman asks, "Why, why, why? Things were going so well!" Many self-help books have flown off the shelves purporting to answer this question, but the truth is that the simplest explanations are always the most likely. He met someone else. He realized he wasn't feeling it. He's back with his ex. Whatever, it happens. And as women we are conditioned to support our friends with an immediate exclamation of "He's a jerk!" I acknowledge that this is not necessarily fair, it's more of a knee-jerk response.
  • vera44
    Also, a book from someone who has seen/done both sides of it (actually the author of He's Just Not That Into You, so it's not like she's a Jesus freak or something): Not Tonight Mr. Right, which is basically about using the lack of sex to get a man to marry you. I don't necessarily condone this, since it's kind of false if you've already had sex before and are tricking a guy into thinking you're pure.

    But anyway, the point is, this is a mainstream book that is the first of many (in my opinion), which will be a backlash against the Jessica Valenti-type feminism of the world.
  • Jacqueline
    Verie44:

    1. Seriously, you are me. I am you. Everything you said in that post regarding your reasons for abstaining strikes such a personal chord. I am also naturally very sensitive, and realizing that when I was younger I think served to save me massive heartache in the future. In terms of the jaded kind of "hardness" you often see in people living in the city, it's so easy to develop that in a place like this, and I know I'm not 100% immune to it either. But like you, that's also something I really fear: losing my cheery and bubbly sense of self. I know those characteristics can fade depending on the circumstances, and being careful is just my own personal way of navigating through sexuality. Others don't feel the need to do that, which is great for them. But I definitely do.

    2. That book(Not Tonight Mr. Right) sounds interesting. Honestly, although I quoted Jessica Valenti in my article, I'm not particularly a huge fan of her book or her personal views. I just loved that one sentence.

    Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!
  • Jacqueline
    I forgot #3: It's so important to remember that guys like your former boyfriend and those guys I've met in the past who put themselves second, do exist. They may be rare, but they're there.
  • susanawalsh
    verie44, welcome to the Comments section! Thanks for taking the time to stop and share your own story.
  • vera44
    Jacqueline,

    It's really nice to hear from someone else who's a twenties-ish virgin. I'm also 24 and dealing with the "freakishness" of not having had sex. The thing is, like you, I am constantly told I'm pretty or hot, guys always try to get me to come home with them at clubs, etc, so it's not like I've had a dearth of opportunity.

    I am also a religious abstainer, but it's been hard to stick with it over time. The last boyfriend I had I dated for six months and I had gone the furthest sexually with him -- pretty much just shy of having sex. He knew my status and it didn't bother him at all, but of course, like any guy, he would take what he could get. At one point, I felt like I was starting to love him & had a chat with him about if he felt like he could have sex with me. He actually didn't want to at that point, saying that he wasn't ready for that big of a commitment and that he'd feel like he should marry me if he took my virginity. I think he was referencing the fact that everyone remembers their first, and he wanted me to save myself for marriage. I appreciate that about him -- he thought about me first and him second, which was really great. We broke up, but are still friends. I know I personally would have been devastated if we had broken up after we'd had sex because I know myself -- I still think about him a lot even though we never technically had intercourse. This is much of the reason I haven't had sex to date -- I am much too sensitive & it's been too ingrained in me that sex outside of marriage is wrong for me to feel comfortable with it or not be emotionally wounded by it. The thing is, I see tons of girls walking around NYC (I live in the city too) and although they're beautiful and my age, they're so hardened. They've been hurt so many times and have had so many disappointments with guys that they're angry, bitter, suspicious, etc. I would much rather avoid all of that -- you can't take back experiences once they've been had. Some of my girlfriends have been burned so badly that I think they'll never be the same. Their playfulness, happiness, childishness, has gone out of them.

    Those are my reasons for abstaining...
  • jason
    That's a good reason. People take sex too lightly these days. But at your age, you can move on to the next level. You're not a child anymore and you are more powerful and less easily hurt. You can be strong and still sensitive.
  • Melissa
    I was a virgin until I was 21. I was younger than Jacqueline is today, but still, it wasn't cool enough for my girlfriends - all of them had done it by the time we were 17. So, i remained as the "prude" one four long years. Although my decision to wait wasn't based on religious values, but my own romantic expectations of doing it for the first time with someone i loved. Yeah, i was one of those who wanted their first time to be "special" and hell yeah, it was special. My guy waited for me to be ready for over a year. He was so patient, loving, considerate and i gave him many, many blue balls, lol. Time has passed by and this guy and I are not together anymore, and I even hate him a little, LOL. but I have the best memories of those first sexual encounters.
    Now, i've become quite the modern girl, lol. I have sex with people I'm not in love with, I hook up. I honestly think that my sex life is amazing. My friends - the same that used to teased me- now ask ME for sexual advice. That could suggest that your sexual satisfaction and knowledge has little to do with the years of experience and practice as opposed to one's attitude towards sex, the openness, disposition to learn, to inform oneself and being absolutely ready . I have my own little theory regarding this. I think that most girls that start having sex very early, and due to boyfriend\peer pressure, end up dragging those first emotions of sex - guiltiness, fear, self consciousness, performance anxiety - for many years of their sex life. While girls who decide to do it when they're ready, when they have enough information to make an educated decision, when their emotions have grown, when they're sure, have generally a more pleasurable experience that could influence the way they live their sexuality in the future. Of course, all of these is very subjective and based on mere observation, but i think it could be an interesting field of study for sexologists.
    Anyway, Jacqueline, don't worry about it, when your time have come, you'll know it. You're not gonna be any less "good" because of your lack of practice. It's a beautiful thing to discover sex with someone you love or at least, when YOU really really want it.
  • VJ
    The point that Hugo Schwyzer is making is well known to any serious folks following the issue in the CDC & public health community. And it's something we allude to here often. History here is telling, and we are often demanding a level of chastity from our young that were unknown by previous generations. And of course it's perfectly fine for Jacqueline to redefine what she means by 'remaining chaste', or not, as the spirit & her conscience moves her. Like I said, it's oft times a difficult transition and coming to grips with coping with all these matters is of course eminently a part of being & becoming an adult. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'
  • Jacqueline
    Hi VJ!

    You make some pretty valid points there, thanks for your words (and well wishes).

    As for TLW, I do completely understand the point of the group/program. When I was younger and a follower of the rules involved, I figured that if I didn't get married ever, I would certainly remain chaste until marriage - no doubt about it. Basically, I would die a virgin. And obviously, as you say, I've abandoned that particular idea and therefore, am clearly no longer a follower of TLW. That is of course, unless I happen to change my mind later (still not having had sex yet) and revert back to the standard of abstinence, which I am more than allowed to do. My entire post is essentially about that transitional thinking, and going from point A to point B; that is, from a follower of that ideology to someone who really is no longer.
  • VJ
    I've got a few thoughts here, but I'm really disappointed in the fact that we appear to be talking past one & another. Which again is not uncommon for emotionally laden subjects.

    First off for Jacqueline? if she wants to remain a virgin (however defined, and there are many, many ways of doing this), until she's 30, 40 or whenever? That's her perfect right, for whatever reason. Fear of disease, pregnancy, or even involvement with others counts here, as well as well founded religious prohibitions. And I think most rational people will support her in this right to do with her body as she thinks best. Full Stop.

    No that that's out of the way, there's still lots of things to discuss.

    Let's start at the top.

    Jacqueline says:

    "When I was in my early teens, I made a commitment to True Love Waits, a nationwide Christian group that promotes abstinence until marriage. It became fixed in my mind that I was to remain a precious, untarnished gift for my future, gift-opening husband, and I truly cherished the thought. I couldn’t wait to have that magical night after my wedding. The blissful thought of it all remained with me for a decade, lasting through all the boys I ever dated, and staying strong despite all of the kisses, temptations, and co-ed sleepovers.

    My longest relationship with a guy was during my senior year of college, and it lasted approximately six months. Far from being a virgin himself, he was willing to wait; so was Ted actually, and Brad, and Kody (in fact, Kody loved that I was waiting). As I explored dating, it appeared that guy after guy either understood or even preferred my decision to remain a virgin. I realize now that I was a tad spoiled by consistently coming across guys like these."

    And:
    "Finally, I strongly disagree with your last statement. I am a single young female in my mid-twenties who is currently trying to establish a career, decide whether I want to get married, if I want to have children, where I want to live next year, etc."

    I'm sorry but seemingly you're fundamentally misunderstanding the main purpose behind 'True Love waits'. It is definitely all about abstinence Until Marriage. If you don't want to get married, or do not see yourself in that role? Clearly their proscription would be for you to remain chaste until marriage. Always. This then is the clear conundrum that Omega man is speaking to, and from sad personal experience here. It is designed to promote early & quick marriage too BTW. And yes, the critique of all this ideology is wonderfully covered by Jessica Valenti in her telling & useful book, "The Purity Myth: How America’s Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women". TRW would have had you marry any one of those very decent & patient blokes in college as their 'end goal', as they fully recognize that the road beyond that timeline gets steeper & harder in its requirements on believers & adherents to the 'system'.

    So the essence of the problem here is that you're perhaps gradually coming to realize that you can (and perhaps should) 'grade out' of these expectations, which are almost impossible to maintain for say the 2 decade interim until you're 34. Priests can't often do that and they take a vow of chastity & obedience to the Church. (As you now state: "Now I’m looking forward to losing my virginity to someone I love.")

    But again to be certain here: I'm not criticizing your decision, just making you aware of some of the logical implications here going forward. It will become harder & harder to maintain such a 'definitive' stance with each passing year (but seemingly you've already abandoned the TRW goals, if you can openly question that marriage part). So the 'middle range' here & 'finally diving in' will be the issue going forward. And at 24? That's certainly not too late to discover some of these yes, natural human expectations & experiences. Sex is a natural expression of love, and has been since the dawn of time. Denying that essential part of humanity in yourself & others for perhaps decades at a time is bound to yes, warp your perspective of both sex, relationships & relationships with the opposite sex.

    And even though we've known virgins older in NYC? It is and yes remains that most unnatural and uncommon of 'kinks' in a city chock filled with them. And yes, it will naturally literally scare the daylights out of all sorts of men, both 'alphas & betas' for any number of reasons. Not all perhaps, just most. There remain enough to really appreciate the rarity of such a stance, but again with each passing year that pool will diminish until you're looking down the barrel of a few very conservative religious folks who will almost festishize such matters, and that will likely never really produce a 'modern marriage of equals'. And that's the essential paradox here. Those that really value such values? Especially in 'older women' perhaps? They're not in NYC. Not really in big numbers. And if you eventually want or desire to seek a mate? That's a relatively important consideration. That's what Omega man was speaking to I think.

    Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'
  • susanawalsh
    I found something relevant and interesting at Open Salon by Hugo Schwyzer, a Stats prof, in an article called "The Madness of the Double Bind: Virginity, Feminism, Success":

    "Yesterday in my women's history class, we began making our way through Joan Brumberg's The Body Project. I've been using the book for years and years, and it's a huge hit with my students each semester.

    It is Brumberg who first drew my attention to statistics about menarche, marriage, and the loss of virginity. She points out that a century ago, girls menstruated for the first time at an average age of 16 and got married at an average age of around 21. Today, girls menstruate at an average age of just under 12 and get married for the first time at just over 25.

    Here's where it gets interesting. A century ago, the time between the onset of puberty and marriage was but five years; today it's close to fifteen. If a contemporary young woman is trying to "wait" until marriage to lose her virginity, she is waiting -- in a very real sense -- three times as long as women did in her great-great grandmother's era! She's got three times the frustration of coping with unexpressed sexual feelings and longings, three times as long to struggle to live up to a cultural and religious standard of purity. Forget trying to live up to the standards of one's ancestors; today's young women who remain committed to virginity are trying to accomplish something that has, from a demographic and physiological standpoint, never been achieved before."

    Wow, when you put this issue within its historical vs. modern context, it's no wonder very few women (especially those pursuing educational and professional goals) will want to wait for marriage.
  • jason
    That's not even the half of it. During the middle ages, average age of menarche was 18. I don't know what the average age of marriage was but I'm guessing it was around 14. For most of human history in most societies, people have been getting married before puberty. This effectively prevented any premarital sex from occurring.
  • susanawalsh
    Jason, thanks for commenting, welcome! Are you serious? Menarche was 18? I think you're right about the marriage age - Juliet, for example, was 14 in the play. What's amazing about this information is that one wonders how marital sex could have even occurred, or at least how it could have been enjoyable for a woman who had not yet reached puberty. I guess those were the days when women were supposed to lie back and "think of England."
  • ExNewYorker
    Susan, thanks for the kind words. I've had some time off recently and some beautiful weather, so much of it has been spent hiking around some of the local state parks with my wife, thus I haven't been online much.

    My perspective might be a little skewed since I went to a school with a large Science/Engineering cohort, and in that bunch, you'll find a lot of "late-bloomers", as Jacqueline put it (yours truly included). So, while there were a bunch of wannabe alphas among them (who wanted the hookups but generally didn't get them), there were a decent amount of quality betas who would not have objected to a fellow inexperienced woman (a bunch of them wound up married to their inexperienced women).

    I would also agree that if the guy in question freaks out or starts acting weird when they discover the "later-bloomer" status, then it's a good sign the guy isn't worth it, from a long-term perspective. A good guy won't make an issue of it...heck, he may be relatively inexperienced himself.

    So, the issue then is twofold:
    1) How do you spot the cads quickly and avoid wasting your time? (Susan's advice is good here)
    2) How do you put yourself in a position to meet the quality male "late-bloomers"? That is probably a topic for another of Susan's posts.

    Of course, a lot of women probably won't want a "late-bloomer", but I'm assuming a decent number of the readers here do indeed.
  • susanawalsh
    Well, we need to find another term, haha. Late bloomer, nerd, geek, beta, none of these terms do justice to the guy who is coming into his own by his mid-20s. He has the qualities women seek in a long-term mate: intelligence, emotional sensitivity, loyalty, stability, faithfulness, willingness to demonstrate love. He is as physically attractive to women as Alpha douchebags are - perhaps even moreso.

    Funny you should mention this as a topic for a post - I've been working on one along the lines of: What Nice Guys Need to Know to Finish First. Stay tuned!
  • ExNewYorker
    Susan wrote:

    "Jacqueline believes her virginity drove away a guy who was interested in her. I've heard this story several times before - it's very difficult for women because they live with a Catch 22. Guys want girls to be significantly less sexually experienced than they themselves are, but they want a girl who's hot in bed."

    For a long term relationship, a lot of guys prefer a "less-traveled" person in that area. For short term flings, hookups or one night stands, it's not uncommon for guys to prefer a girl who's hot in bed.

    Here's the part that makes a difference. If you're hooking up with an alpha player type, then that sort of double of double standard shouldn't really be unexpected. It's part of what make the alphas the cads that they are and goes with the territory. It's like wondering why the lions are attacking those poor pretty gazelles...it's who they are. However, there is some reasonably sized percentage of betas who don't have large notch counts, and whose desire for a reasonably non-experienced partner is largely due to the fact that they want someone to learn with, and share those things together. So, it's a catch-22 only if you're looking at the wrong guys.

    As for Jacqueline, it's commendable that she's made her decision to wait and not apologize for it. It's uncommon to see someone avoid the hookup culture. However, one thing for her is to be careful of the "take advantage of the freedom they have" mentality. Yes, it's generally a good idea to do things at that point that you can't later on, but it's important to remember that you still need to think of the future and some things can't be delayed forever. But, she sounds like she has things under control in her life, and maybe her experience with Benjamin will allow her to spot such cads (and he does sound like a cad: "fooled around with a stripper") and nip-em in the bud, so to speak.
  • Jacqueline
    Thanks for your post ExNewYorker. Here's to spotting those cads from here on out...
  • susanawalsh
    ExNewYorker, I just want to interject here and welcome you back! I have missed your wise take on things! You make a very good point here about which guys Jacqueline (and any sane woman) should be going for. I love the idea of a guy who wants someone to learn with, and share sexual discovery with. The truth is, this isn't rocket science. Two relatively inexperienced people who are curious and enthusiastic will easily figure out how to turn each other on.

    The worst thing that could happen to J. is for her to wind up with a player, who sees her as a conquest. I give her credit for putting her history out there - making it clear that he has to deal with it or disappear.
  • FoodforThought
    Jacqueline,

    Bravo to you. You are a voice of reason and model of self-control in a culture that values if-it-feels-good-do-it self-gratification above all else. You may feel the odd one out for your beliefs, but you're not.

    This 26-year old guy thinks girls like you are super attractive... and an encouraging contrast to the impulsive, amoral, used, emotionally warped, STD ravaged girls who comprise about 80-90% of the dating pool. I wish there were more like you.

    Don't get discouraged- continue to be proud of who you are and what you believe. You don't have to apologize to anyone for it!
  • Jacqueline
    DecoyBetty: Thanks for commenting on my post! That's so great that you're so content with your decision. I hope that happens to me as well when the time comes...

    MorningGlory: Thanks for sharing your wisdom with me! As I always say, it's better late than never, and it sounds like your extreme clear-headedness now will really serve to benefit you in the future. And I'm totally the same: old-fashioned dating all the way!

    OmegaMan: I agree with you - a voluntary female virgin IS very different from an involuntary male virgin. I realize that the double standard applies both ways, and isn't detrimental only in terms of the woman. As for my attitude, it isn't that I want people to judge me by my standards instead of theirs, it's that I don't think they should be judging me at all. Period. However, I recognize that this isn't La-La Land and judgement will take place, no matter what, which is why I wrote the part about no one being immune to it, including myself . I would never, ever demand that others not have their own opinions.

    I understand that a guy may very well decide I'm a poor risk as a long term relationship partner, which is precisely what I think the case was with Benjamin. And although it hurt my feelings a little, I accepted it. Like I said, I'm not judging him. I don't hate him. It's just unfortunate that the end result was what it was.

    As for your barrage of questions regarding my sexuality, I can't help but regard those as a mild personal attack. I won't respond to any of them because frankly, the answers are no one's business but my own; but I will say that everyone (including you) is entitled to making their own decisions, no matter what the circumstances may be.

    Finally, I strongly disagree with your last statement. I am a single young female in my mid-twenties who is currently trying to establish a career, decide whether I want to get married, if I want to have children, where I want to live next year, etc. You write: "A young person needs to be focused on what will lead to a good long term relationship, not just what pleases them right now..." Completely untrue. First of all, some young people (many of them actually) don't want a relationship. They want to take advantage of the freedom they have now that they won't necessarily have later. I am a "young person," and currently I am completely indulging in a life that is centered around me only and what is best for me. I have no spouse, no children, no dependents, and therefore have every right to do whatever pleases me at the moment. I make no apologies about that. And if I meet a man who hasn't yet made any clear commitment towards me who forces me to be apologetic for this, then surprise surprise - he ain't for me.
  • Jaqueline, people judge other people all the time. You make numerous detailed judgements about people you pass on the street, to say nothing of those you date. This is normal behavior, as people have values and expectations and evaluate how others meet them.

    Why didn't you judge Benjamin? I'm guessing you have but are unwilling to express that, having bought into the whole "judging is bad" thing. I'll save you the trouble and do it for you. Benjamin is a dick. He cannot conceive of why anybody would not have sex except that there is something mentally wrong with them.

    I don't think I made any comments on your sexuality. What I'm attacking is your belief other people ought to accept you. Boys learn that isn't going to happen early, girls sometimes avoid it. People in your environment believe themselves to be very enlightened, and they are very tolerant of people who are just like them, it's only people who are different they hate.

    The idea that some people, possibly including you, don't need a relationship is just wrong. People are designed, or evolved to have relationships, including sexual relationships and being alone is not normal or healthy. It's the fate of some but a sad one.
  • susanawalsh
    Jacqueline, just one small point here - perhaps Omega Man will speak up for himself, but I assumed those questions were aimed at a hypothetical relationship prospect, not at you specifically. Here's a case where the British are better communicators than we are - they would use the impersonal "one" instead of "you." If I'm wrong, you have every reason to be more than a little offended, but that doesn't sound like OM.
  • Susan, you asked me to comment. A female virgin by choice though is a great deal different than an involuntary male virgin.

    Jaqueline's attitude is she wants people not to judge her by their own standards, but by hers. It's exactly the same as with a promiscuous woman who does not want to be judged a slut. In either case it's very self-centered, and exactly the kind of female attitude that is a big turn off. You can do whatever you want to do, but people are going to have their own reactions to that. To expect them not to have their own viewpoint is worse than solipsistic, it's dumb.

    If you have sex with a lot of guys, and a guy knows it, he may decide you are a poor risk as a long-term relationship partner. He may decide you are a poor risk as a one night stand, for that matter. You may find that uptight, moralistic, prudish, or whatever, but you may well get a negative reaction. Either make sure your business stays private or have sex with fewer guys.

    If you are a virgin, and insist on staying that way until marriage, a guy may also decide you are a poor risk as a long term relationship partner. Sex is pretty important and he will have no idea what a sexual relationship with you would be like until he is fully committed. The fact is even few religious people actually follow this rule. Do you have something to hide sexually? Are you extremely sexually inhibited? Are you going to display a lot of rigidity in other matters? Why won't you do something that will make him happy? Are you going to be stubborn and selfish about other things?

    A young person needs to be focused on what will lead to a good long term relationship, not just what pleases them right now, whether that is being a slut or being a virgin.
  • susanawalsh
    Omega Man, thanks for coming by. Yes, Jacqueline has remained a virgin by choice. A woman who is determined to lose her virginity will never have difficulty if she is not too choosy. So it's never the same for women as for men.

    Still, a woman who makes this choice may be made to feel like an outcast. I have spoken to both men and women about this issue, and they have both expressed a feeling of shame at not having had the opportunity yet by their mid-20s. For men, that may mean the opportunity to have sex with a woman, even if it is not relationship sex. For women, it usually means the failure they feel in not having attracted a man to love them.

    Jacqueline believes her virginity drove away a guy who was interested in her. I've heard this story several times before - it's very difficult for women because they live with a Catch 22. Guys want girls to be significantly less sexually experienced than they themselves are, but they want a girl who's hot in bed.

    Jacqueline knew that Benjamin would have some feeling about her being a virgin. It's not an accident that this topic came up on their third date. Was she wrong to hope that he would respond with sensitivity? Or that he would say, cool, whatever, and not let it derail their romance? How is that solipsistic or dumb? Do you think it was legit for him to respond by saying, in essence, "OK, that explains a lot!"

    Re having sex with a lot of guys, I agree totally here. Your statement is pragmatic; I don't find it uptight, moralistic or prudish. It reflects reality. Same with your statement re insisting on no sex. In this modern era, I daresay that would be a dealbreaker for most men. Jacqueline was indeed lucky that she was involved with four men in a row who had no problem with that.
  • My brother, sister and I were raised in a Irish Catholic home with mores that would have been appropriate to that kind of a community in a northeastern city in the 40's. Unfortunately we were living in southern California in the 70's. I developed a raging hatred for this and abandoned it as soon as I could. My brother and sister stuck with it. They are late 40's and virgins to this day. Had they been functioning in a social environment with many other people following the same rules it might have worked for them, but they were not, since most practicing Catholics don't even follow those rules.

    If you are an Orthodox Jew or a Mormon this should work for you. If you are an evangelical Christian in a place with lots of others, it might, although I don't think they have a particularly strong sexual morality. Catholic or mainline Protestant, no. Big city yuppie? No way in hell. The simple fact is that within her social milieu Jaqueline is, in fact, a freak and a weirdo. Social behavior is context dependent. Unless she is willing to join a Baptist church and date guys in the singles group her strategy is not going to work. She was stupid to expect Benjamin to respond with respect. Manhattan yuppies loathe and despise people who follow traditional morality. She got the best response she could have expected- a patronizing one, that she was mentally damaged.

    It is only now dawning on my sister she was sold a bill of goods. I hope Jaqueline will reconsider.
  • Jacqueline
    OmegaMan:

    I'm not sure where all of this hostility is coming from. I thought this was a forum for discussion, not a place for disparaging comments and sweeping generalizations. I see both posts from you, in response to Susan and then to me, and although you are of course more than entitled to your personal opinions, you are speaking as though you know me just because of where I happen to live (NYC).

    Feel free to think I am a "freak" or a "weirdo" or even "mentally damaged," as you say, but I'm going to have to squash your hopes and choose not to "reconsider."
  • I appreciate your words in this matter Jacqueline. I myself am a 24 year old virgin, and I have had similar comments said to me when people find out that I am still a virgin. I am not still a virgin because of some religious or social pressure. I am still a virgin because I have not yet found the person that I am willing to give it to. I view my virginity as something that is mine, and only mine. It is not up to anyone else when and who I chose to give it to.

    I have had problems with some guy that I have been romantically involved with or wanted to be involved with chosing not to continue pursuing a relationship with me once they figure out that I am a celibate. I continue to be friends with them, but the romantic aspect of the relationship tends to die. I don't judge them for it. Sex is important to them, and if that is what they want now and are unwilling to wait, then I feel that they should be free to seek out someone who can fufill their needs.

    I don't believe that I am a "freak" or a "weirdo", because I chose celibacy. I believe that I am an independently minded person , who observed the lives of friends who both chose to be sexually active, and those who chose celibacy. Then I looked at where I was in my life, saw the responsibilities that I had, and decided that the time simply wasn't right for me to have sex. It does sadden me that I may and probably will miss out on dating some pretty great guys, because of my decision. But in the end it is my decision, and I have to make the one that is going to make me happy.
  • Jaqueline, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm sure you have good reason for choosing the values you have. There is nothing wrong with that and I respect it. I'm only trying to say that if you insist on restricting all sexual activity to marriage, you will reduce your pool of potential boyfriends and husbands excessively.

    I think you should at least consider having sex with a guy with whom you feel you have a good emotional connection. The relationship may not lead to marriage but you will never know until you try.

    Should you find yourself in a situation like with Benjamin, you might bring the subject up carefully. Tell him you didn't hook up with guys in college because the idea of getting drunk and having sex with some guy you barely knew was gross to you. Tell him you haven't dated a lot since because you don't like the idea of going to bars and getting drunk and having sex with some guy you barely know. He will get the drift. If he asks you if you've ever had sex before, he should do it in a pretty gentle and discreet way. If he can't handle the situation sensitively he's not the one to have this experience with.
  • morning__glory
    Thanks for sharing that! Whatever you decide, it sounds like you're awesome at being Jacqueline, at that's what really matters in the end :)
    I lost it with my high school boyfriend, with whom I was as crazy in love back then (as only a naive teenager can be, haha). I was about 19 when we broke up, and one awful day I decided that sleeping with whoever I wanted wasn't a big deal, and that nobody was going to give a big, shiny medal for having sex only if I had a steady relationship.
    Ignorance is reckless.
    What I learned really soon (and with a lot of help from HUS) is that for me, having sex IS a big deal. Not worth it if you don't really care about the person. Or the fun, casual hook up turns into hell when you realize that the dude is pretty amazing and now you are head over heels with a guy that doesn't get why you insist in "complicating things, when we were getting along so well and having so much fun".
    So the next time I sleep with a guy, will be after we get to know each other the nice, old-fashioned way (the whole going to the movies, having private jokes, meeting the parents, and of course, THE TALK. Yeah, I want ALL that, haha, sorry dudes).
    For me, the knowledge came with a price. But I've never felt better than now, knowing myself and knowing what I want. I hope that gives me a little bit of much needed strenght against temptation, haha. You are showing me that it is possible to have a very healthy self-control, so I hope to follow your example :)
  • Decoybetty
    Until very recently, I was a 24 year old virgin too. I just wanted to wait until I was falling in love. And I do have this romantic notion that the first guy I slept with will be the guy I am with forever.

    I totally respect your decision and your process, I get so annoyed with people who judge others for decisions like this. So, good on ya for doing whatever it is that feels right for you.
  • renu
    I didn't lose my virginity until I was 27. I actually have three other girlfriends who waited as well. There are more virgins out there than people realize. I didn't tell anyone since I didn't want to be judged for my decision. I didn't date much in college and then became a serial dater after college. I wanted to wait until I was in love. Which didn't happen for me until my mid twenties. I didn't tell the guy I was with at the the time that I was a virgin so I am not sure what kind of reaction I would have gotten. I am glad I waited since I am more comfortable and confident with my body now than when I was 17.
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