Help, I’m In a “Whatever” With a Guy I Really Like
Dear Susan,
I’m having a problem with the guy I’m seeing, but I don’t know if I’m being unreasonable, or if he’s just not that into me. I’m 23 and he’s a year older. We met at a friend’s party a couple of months ago, and started hanging out pretty regularly after that. He treats me really well – he is attentive and affectionate. I see him at least a couple of times a week. It’s pretty obvious that all of our friends consider us a couple, and I agree that’s what we look like. That’s what it feels like. We never talked about it though, and it’s been on my mind. I wanted him to bring it up, but I could tell he wasn’t even thinking about it, so last weekend I asked what it is we’re doing. Basically, he said that everything is great exactly the way it is, and he doesn’t want to label it. That pissed me off – I asked him whether in this arrangement with no name he would hook up with anyone else. He said that he isn’t hooking up with anyone else, which didn’t really answer my question. I know I’m making him sound like a jerk, and he isn’t. He’s a great guy and I really like him. I guess he just doesn’t want a relationship, at least right now, or with me 
Should I stop seeing him, or am I being too rigid?
Meghan
Dear Meghan,
You are spending time with someone you’ve grown to care about, and you’re having sex. It is natural for you to want a commitment with a man you are intimately sharing your body with. This is entirely reasonable, and you would be justified in ending this “whatever” with him if he cannot give you what you want. However, you are understandably reluctant to give up on someone you like if there is some possibility of things working out in the future. Let’s break this down a bit.
The R Word
Relationship has become a very loaded word. It seems like whenever guys feel a relationship talk coming on, they all yell “Incoming!” and duck. There are many reasons why guys prefer to “not put a label on it:”
1. They don’t have to. It sounds like the man you’re seeing has everything he wants right now. Men perceive that being in a relationship means signing up for a bunch of troublesome stuff:
- Being obligated to communicate regularly, not just when they feel like it.
- Planning romantic gestures, paying special attention to birthdays, anniversaries and holidays.
- Being called out for behavior that isn’t boyfriendy enough.
Recently, a guy about his age (who is in a serious relationship) told me that the only reasons guys are ever willing to be in relationships is because they are secure and comfortable. In other words, getting out there all the time and hitting on women is exhausting, and sometimes a guy gets in the mood to settle down a bit. It’s nice being with one woman who digs you.
Essentially, from a guy’s perspective, being with women is a pain in the ass, as it requires time and effort to get sex, one way or the other.
Your guy is making an effort to maximize his return with a small emotional down payment. You are on layaway!
2. He may view you as potential relationship material, but is not ready to make that decision. There are lots of reasons why men (and women) would rather not take the leap sometimes:
- They don’t feel emotionally resilient or available, due to a past relationship experience.
- They have been in serious relationships in the past, and would like to try keeping things casual to see what that’s like.
- They feel generally overwhelmed with the expectations they’re already trying to meet, and don’t want to add the complication of a time-consuming relationship.
- The future looks uncertain. Thoughts of grad school, geographic moves, etc. impose an expiration date on relationships that make people reluctant to get too attached.
- Sexual variety is a powerful lure for guys.
- He enjoys your company, but is not feeling the intensity that would inspire him to take himself off the market. Or, He’s Just Not That blah blah blah.
Your Strategic Options
1. Make a fuss. Issue an ultimatum: “We’re in one or we’re done.”
I don’t recommend this option. You like him, but you have no hand. This sets you up as a loser. Even if you somehow got him to agree, a reluctant boyfriend is not what you want.
Likelihood of success: 0%
2. Give it a bit more time and then raise the issue again. Let him know that you’re less than thrilled with the situation.
Nope. Now you’re a nag, an albatross around his neck. You are 100% downer.
Likelihood of success: 10%
3. Continue on as you are, hoping that over time he will become more attached and want to make it official.
It’s possible, but what would inspire him to make a change?
Likelihood of success: 20%
4. Put yourself back on the market.
BINGO!
Go with the flow, but KEEP LOOKING. By all means, spend time with him. Enjoy one another’s company. If you can enjoy the sex without a commitment, fine.
- Cultivate and nurture your other friendships. Be active in pursuing your own interests that don’t include him. Schedule a bike ride with someone else. Go away for a weekend in another city with a girlfriend.
- Don’t play games. I’m not one for Rules, I think it’s stupid to strategize about how long you should wait before returning a text or call, etc.
- Don’t try to make him jealous. Guys hate feeling jealous, and they’ll dump a girl rather than be in that state for long.
- I am a big fan of Saying What You Need to Say. Tell him it’s cool, you would like to continue hanging out, and that you will make some adjustments in your own life to reflect the two of you not being exclusive. Then go and be fabulous. Consider yourself single. Go out to parties, etc. with the specific idea that you could meet someone new.
This approach does not guarantee you’ll get the guy, but it does make you less of a sitting duck for heartbreak. And it gives him an incentive to be exclusive if he likes you. You are the one in control of deciding whether or not you want to keep seeing him, under the current terms. You’ll need to allow some time, though. He will not want to appear like he is caving in to your demands.
Likelihood of success: Hard to say, I’d put it in the 60-75% range because he is displaying strong interest.
SEX
I feel that it’s important to address the question of sex. I am not a fan of EVER having sex with more than one guy at a time. It geometrically increases the risk for all kinds of unpleasant stuff, most notably messing up your head. It is very, very difficult for women to pull this off.
I am also not a fan of having sex with a guy who is having sex with someone other than me. Again, nothing good can come of this.
You need to come to an agreement with him that each of you will let the other know if you decide to have sex with someone else. If you meet someone else you want to go there with, it says something important about your feelings about your Whatever. In that case, I would advise making a clean break.
I’ve got my fingers crossed that he’ll come to his senses soon. If he doesn’t step up, you deserve better.
xoxo
Susan
Don’t take yourselves off the market for Whatever, ladies. It’s bad strategy. You can’t force someone to commit to you. But you can refuse to participate in an arrangement that makes you feel like a loser.
Question: Do you agree with me about the Sex piece?
Related posts:
from personal experience, if he showed interest in a relationship first, her attraction for him would fall off a cliff.
Oh, interesting. You're saying he is already following a strategy of his own. So would you advise her to be patient, let him have the upper hand for a while, as long as he isn't trying to get with other girls, etc? You're a guy – how does she get him if she really likes him?
I think there's also option number 5. I'm never a big fan of telling people to change who they are, but I'm a big fan of knowledge. How about this:
“Hey, Mr. Not-Boyfriend, after our last talk, I was wondering about something. I get that you're not really interested in moving things past what we have right now, and I'm cool with it for the time being. I like what we have right now, too. I would like you to help me, though. (Boys love to fix problems.) Is there anything you can think of that might change, either in the situation, or with me, or with you, that might make you more interested in something exclusive sometime in the future?”
This kind of question can work magic. For one thing, you're giving him what he wants right now, which is the status quo. You're even saying you like it. That's magic in itself. You're taking the pressure off of him. Next, you're getting information, instead of continuing to guess what this guy's reluctance is. What he says will tell you a lot about how you need to proceed. If he can't think of anything… well… there's your answer. If he tells you something he doesn't like about you, well… it's something you can and will change, or it's not, and you have your answer. You might also learn something neat about him.
So… yeah. Maybe try figuring out more of what's in his head while giving him what he wants. Men dig that.
with the woman that i ended up marrying, i waited six months to call her my girlfriend.
im nowhere near a pro, so if that is what this man is, i cant speak for him. i just know that eagerness to settle or commit can be a major turnoff for women. so long as he is honest about things, why complain?
That does seem fair, if she can trust him to be honest. It sounds like she believes he has good character, so there's no reason to suspect he would lie. The problem for women is that we often get strung along by a guy who says he doesn't want a relationship, isn't ready for marriage, etc. Then the next thing you know he's fallen head over heels for someone else and suddenly he can't make a commitment fast enough. That feels terrible, and like you wasted a lot of precious time. I understand that signaling intense, unconditional interest is a turnoff – if he could tell her that he doesn't feel ready, but really likes her, and wants time to see where this goes I think she'd feel fine about it. Something about the way he talked about not labeling it made me think he is trying to keep his options open.
I like that Hamby, it's a variation on the Say What You Need to Say theme. Meghan could make it clear she likes him a lot, and would like more in the future, and possibly learn right then whether she's wasting her time or not.
Of course this set of circumstances is quite common, and very often women make the mistake of saying, “OK, then, if we're not exclusive, we can just be friends.” Which translates to NO SEX. Now it's lose lose for everyone! Two people who enjoy each other quite a bit are at an impasse. I like your strategy of moving things forward in a proactive way.
I think this is great advice and I totally agree with the sex bit. You can tell yourself in your head you're not exclusive and whatever, but if you find out he's with someone else, that's a surefire way to make yourself feel like crap (especially since it's quite clear you have feelings for this guy). Actually, any way it spins it's bound to make you feel like crap. Hopefully this guy will have the honor and courage to be honest if he does start sleeping with someone else.
Exactly, Susan. If men are all about instant sex, then women are all about instant relationships, and frankly, neither of them is a great idea.
This website is devoted to the fact that most couples have sex before they have relationships. While I'm not here to suggest that anyone ought to sleep with several people at the same time, I do think it's wise to have a “trial phase” where there's no expectation of monogamy, but there is the expectation of honesty. In other words, I won't be mad at you if you have a choice to make between me and someone else you like, but I will be mad at you if you lie about having sex with them, or if you have unprotected sex with either of us.
This kind of thinking is scary and dangerous, though. Most of us don't like to admit it, but when we find someone who wants to have sex with us, and we like having sex with them, too, we want to latch onto them like a lounge chair from the deck of the Titanic. We want to believe that every new person is THE ONE.
In reality, Meghan's in a great place right now, if she can only get her brain to agree to the situation. She's got a guy she enjoys hanging out with, and she gets good sex, too. He's not seeing anybody, but has indicated that he might (by his evasive answer). She's got the best of both worlds right now. If someone hits on her, she can run with it and see what's there. If she meets a guy she likes, she can flirt with him and see if he flirts back. She doesn't even have to sleep with him if she doesn't want to, but she has the option.
One of several things might happen:
1) She meets someone else. Boyfriend #1 (BF1) gets angry at her for “cheating.” She ditches him immediately for being a total hypocrite. (After all, he reserved the right to “cheat” on her.
2) She meets someone else. BF1 realizes his feelings are deeper than he thought. He offers a monogamous commitment. She gets what she wanted.
3) She meets someone else. BF1 realizes his feelings are deeper than he thought. He offers a monogamous commitment. She would rather have BF2. She gets what she wants.
4) She meets someone else, BF1 is ambivalent. Question answered.
See? It's a no-lose. The trick to it is being brave enough to keep things at arms length right now. Once or twice a week is enough, or she won't be able to keep it “casual” for long. No hanging out everyday. It's not wrong to give a man sex before getting a commitment. It is a bad idea to give a man *EVERYTHING* he'd get from a committed relationship without a commitment. So… say no to the bootie calls some of the time. Be busy more than you're available. Don't answer every time he calls. Meet him on his own ground until he wants to escalate. In the meantime, don't keep all your eggs in one basket. See if there's someone better out there, but don't worry too much that you get to have orgasms while you look. That's a good thing.
NOTE TO MY GIRLS:
This last paragraph of Hamby's is brilliant. Print it off and stick it in your handbag. Reread frequently.
And if the brain that understands women that well turns you on… drop me a line
Seriously, Susan, thank you so much for the high praise.
Oh… one more thing. I'm about to throw you some pingback love, and I think you'll like the article, as well.
Yay, can't wait! Thx!
Meghan is not willing to give her guy up because he's in the top 20%. Finding an actual relationship might require looking at the bottom 80% of men she despises so we get this verbal diarrhea from her.
Steveo, you are so out of line!
1. You don't know who this guy is, what he looks like, or how much sex he gets. Believe it or not, some women do go for the 80%, and find that they are just as douchey as the 20% we love to bitch about.
2. Stop saying women despise men! There is NOTHING in this letter from Meghan that justifies your accusing her.
3. Verbal diarrhea? No. This is real for many women. You are bummed, I get that. But Meghan is bummed too. And you don't have the right to tell her she isn't allowed to have those feelings.
Steveo, we're all in the same boat here. We're all looking to connect. I know what you want. And I know you are not going to get it if you don't stop blaming women. I'm sorry to be so blunt, I don't mean to offend you. But I'm a straight shooter, I'm very direct, for better or worse. Lose that chip on your shoulder, because hating and blaming women is not going to move you forward.
I want to see you get what you want in 2010. You've put up considerable obstacles, and you need to take them down for you to succeed.
[...] entry, but I’ve been inspired by my favorite relationship blogger, Susan Walsh. In a recent blog entry, a young woman asked for advice on how to handle a guy who’s perfectly happy with a situation [...]
>You don't know who this guy is, what he looks like, or how much sex he gets.
He's in a relationship with Meghan. Either they're having sex or soon will be (unless Meghan decides to break things off).
>Stop saying women despise men!
What else am I supposed to think when women treat 80% of the male population as pariahs?
>You are bummed, I get that. But Meghan is bummed too.
You can't seriously compare the minimal problem Meghan has with being a (soon to be) 30 year old virgin. You wouldn't try to claim that a man who is starving is in the same situation as someone who had to skip lunch once so don't do that to me.
>Steveo, we're all in the same boat here.
Have you been a 30 year old virgin?
>Lose that chip on your shoulder, because hating and blaming women is not going to move you forward.
Nothing I do moves me forward. Do you think I was born thinking this way? It took over 15 years of being beat down by women. My attitude doesn't make a difference.
Susana, you really have no idea what is happening to most men. I have read your exchanges with guys like Obsidian and The Fifth Horseman from The Spearhead. They describe real problems happening to a large mass of men. So far you refuse to get it. You can poo poo The Spearhead as being a view of only a few men (as if that makes a difference) or “against the women's movement” (why shouldn't they be against it), but the fact of the matter is that they are describing and analyzing the real problems happening to men.
If you really want to solve the problem of women being able to get something better in relationships, then you have to acknowledge and deal with the fact that these problems are caused by women and can only be solved by women changing their behavior. It's that simple. Until then telling women “choose the dad not the cad” is falling on deaf ears.
Your blog has inspired me to stop dating assholes, and for that, my friends thank you. In honor of that, I have given you an award. It's on my blog.
Thank you so much for all of the rock solid advice. And keep it coming!
I've always told my single girlfriends to take a page from the guy's book. That means taking your cue from how he's proceeding with the relationship, and keeping it at the same pace he does, so you don't give more than you should prematurely. What I've seen happen countless times is that the woman starts pressing for more than what the guy's willing to give because she's already invested far more than he has. So stop, take stock, and heed all the signs. That way you don't end up banging your head on the wall feeling a fool for giving so much more of yourself than you should have.
Great analysis, as always, Susan.
This is a great post that both men and women can take advice from. It's not just women that find themselves in this position. For example a guy on our site posted a similar question – http://www.leftos.com/topic/view/44
It seems that in todays world (according to many of our users) people feel pressured by labels. One user suggests that you communicate more of the boundaries of the relationship (ex: can you hook up with other people or not) and get those squared away. From there the label won't matter if you have those things determined.
Thanks so much, Kallay! I am honored. Check out the new post, I've given you some link love back!
AT, welcome! I think this is your first comment? This is really, really good advice. I have seen so many women fall into that trap. I think very often we don't want to heed all the signs. Our friends see them, and warn us about the red flags, but we willfully suspend any doubts. But the important thing is to know that holding back and keeping pace with the guy is most likely to bring about the desired outcome. Clingy, needy, overeager, demanding….one whiff of any of these and most guys are out the door.
leftos, I agree with the user who suggests that a clear delineation of boundaries is key. The most important one is the one of sexual exclusivity. I have seen both women and men learn after a really long time (like a year and a half) that the relationship they thought was monogamous wasn't. Sometimes that's about cheating, but other times, it's about not being clear around expectations.
Hi, Susan! Yes, it's my first comment, and thank you for the warm welcome. I've been reading HUS for quite some time, and I like the common sense approach you've taken vis-a-vis relationship issues.
Thank you very much, AT. I look forward to hearing more from you in the future!
Thanks so much, Kallay! I am honored. Check out the new post, I've given you some link love back!
AT, welcome! I think this is your first comment? This is really, really good advice. I have seen so many women fall into that trap. I think very often we don't want to heed all the signs. Our friends see them, and warn us about the red flags, but we willfully suspend any doubts. But the important thing is to know that holding back and keeping pace with the guy is most likely to bring about the desired outcome. Clingy, needy, overeager, demanding….one whiff of any of these and most guys are out the door.
leftos, I agree with the user who suggests that a clear delineation of boundaries is key. The most important one is the one of sexual exclusivity. I have seen both women and men learn after a really long time (like a year and a half) that the relationship they thought was monogamous wasn't. Sometimes that's about cheating, but other times, it's about not being clear around expectations.
Hi, Susan! Yes, it's my first comment, and thank you for the warm welcome. I've been reading HUS for quite some time, and I like the common sense approach you've taken vis-a-vis relationship issues.
Thank you very much, AT. I look forward to hearing more from you in the future!
[...] Help, I'm In a “Whatever” With a Guy I Really Like | Hooking Up Smart [...]
Ok I have not read many of the comments and I have been absent for a few weeks due to technical difficulties. I had to comment on this.
This guy sound similar to the relationship that brought me to this page and this advice and the advice that I have read from everyone is great. However, it has been my experience that holding out isn't really fair to either party. You can have the conversation of what are we doing lots of time. If you are happy with the answer really leave it at that. I agree with hambydammit but this requires so much restraint and if she really likes him it is hard to keep communication down.
I'm wondering if Meghan is really happy with how things are. I understand you need a trial period but it sounds like they are pass the trial period and Meghan thinks it is time to move on to the next stage and is not getting this from her guy. I think it is fair to say that if she wants more she should go and find someone that will give her more. Waiting around for him to realize that she is worth being with or playing all these waiting games doesn't seem worth it. Guess what he can be a great guy and a douche bag at the same time. I was reading John Mayer's tweets last week and one of his tweets was “Now, men who mean well are the most infuriating. Assholes are easy. Mean-well-men are the most destructive types.”
I hope it works out for Meghan. It is hard when you find someone you have a great time with and they are not able to make the commitment you need. However, it isn't worth waiting around and seeing if something will change.
Meg! I am so happy to see you! Yes, I agree. I do allow for the possibility that he will come to his senses, especially if she asserts her independence. I also think what bsg said is interesting, that guys are loathe to offer commitment too soon, because the woman's attraction will “fall off a cliff.” Mostly I hate, hate, hate to see anyone sit around waiting for anything. Get up, go out, do something. It will feel better than waiting for a verdict. If Meghan hedges her bets (calmly, and without attitude) I think there is a very real possibility this guy will commit.
“Being obligated to communicate regularly, not just when they feel like it.
Planning romantic gestures, paying special attention to birthdays, anniversaries and holidays.
Being called out for behavior that isn’t boyfriendy enough.”
What about the women doing those? why is it that it's always the guy who has to treat the women special? why is it the guy who should always be called out for behavior that isn't boyfriendy enough? what about her treating him special or being a hot girl absolves her of that part of the deal?
Hi Steveo, I am really sorry that you have such problems finding a girl that would like you back. However, as you talk about the problem of being in the bottom 80% I can not help but wonder if you tried dating girls in your bottom 80%. I know girls who are not considered beautiful according to rigid standards and they get rejected by guys and told in their faces that they are unattractive in most brutal and imaginative ways. From a female perspective it seems to me that most men magazines talk about scoring with attractive women as though others should simply be overlooked. And unfortunately, for most women humor, money and/or intellect does not put them in the top 20% as it does most men. So there are two sides of the coin. And just as you believe guys have a right to be against the women's movement and still complain about being 30 year old virgins, women have a right to overlook you and any guy they wish to and still complain about not being in a relationship. It will not necessarily get either of you very far, but hey, you have your rights.
Hi valmont, thanks for commenting. That's a totally valid question. I think women do have high and often unrealistic expectations in these areas – I know a lot of guys think they do. That's why they consider us such a pain! A woman might think that a six-month anniversary since your first date should be celebrated in some way, while the guy would never in a million years have thought it was that important. When I made this point, I was laying out the reasons guys are reluctant to commit. The high expectations of women for them to jump through hoops is one of those reasons. And no, I don't think being a hot girl absolves a woman of anything. A guy should not settle for a woman who won't go to the trouble of appreciating him and making him feel special.
Well, the advice of hambydammit and Susan Walsh would be good if women were like men. But they aren't. I think it is terrible advice.
Sometimes I feel that the problem with women is that they receive advice from other women about men. Being a guy, if I want advice about women, I ask my female friends. If I want advice about American people, I ask an American person. I wouldn't ask a Greek person for advice about American people.
The editorial world is full of books that are simply filled with crappy advice from women to other women. Then women wonder why they are unsuccessful in their relationships.
Let's review the situation:
This girl is HAVING sex with a men who likes and who she would like to have a relationship with. Women are not known for wanting a relationship with anybody who crosses their path but they are very selective about who they want to be in a relationship with. This means that this guy is between the 5% or 10% of the male population the writer thinks it is great to have a relationship with. Coincidentally, this guy must be in the “atractive” list of other women too.
That is, the guy got options. This is why he is reluctant to enter a relationship. If he was a man with no options, he would have accepted a relationship. The guy is not a sexual loser. If it was, the writer would have dumped him when he issued the evasive statement and she would have found another guy.
If she hasn't done that instead of wondering how to make him accept a relationship, if because she knows that she is not likely to easily find another like him. Of course, she can get lots of men easily, but not of the “quality” of him.
One of the many problems with the hambydammit advice is that women bond with men they are having sex with. Having an “open relationship” is easier for men than for women. At the same time, men despise a women who is hanging out with one man and then keeping her options open. That is, the S-word. Complain what you want about the double standard, but it is the way it is.
If you are having sex with him, you won't be able to bond with other men you are seeing. If you only want to play games with him to make him jealous, this could very well backfire. Men despise manipulation. You will lower your value in his eyes.
My advice as a guy?
Well, he has the upper hand right now. You have shown interest in a relationship and he has stood his ground. You have lost a battle. Saying the R-word only after two months makes you be seen like desperate. Accepting his crappy excuses makes him believe he can evade commitment and BS you easily. He knows he can evade commitment and this doesn't imply the end of the relationship.
It is difficult to know what happens in his mind right now, but he could very well be playing the field. He is only 24. But I digress.
Wait four months more without even mentioning the “relationship” word. Take things easy. Have fun and try not to think about the future (or at least, try not to tell him anything about the future). Keep things casual, fun and nice. Four months is not a century. You are only 23.
Then, when you have the six months mark, talk sincerely to him along the lines: “Well, we are together for six months. I really like you and I think we have something special going on here. I want to have a relationship with you but I want you to know if you feel the same.” No playing games! No BS! No threats! Only the ugly truth! Men value sincerity and despise women getting emotional, playing games and all this crap.
If he accepts, you get what you want.
If he tries to evade with words like “I am not having relationship with other women”, restate your question. Don't let him fool you. Tell him: “I know you're not, but I really need to know if you want a relationship with me”. Tell him this without being emotional. It is a logical question and he owes you a logical answer without evasive BS. Keep telling calmly that you need an answer. Try to be as calm as possible.
If he refuses to give you an answer or rejects, the answer is no. The rest of my post is devoted to this possibility.
Tell him something about the lines: “Well, I cannot continue this way. I really care for you but I think it is the time for us to see other people”. Be calm when you say this. Don't whine. Don't cry. Don't lower yourself in front of his eyes. You got dignity. If you want to cry, do it at home. Try to be polite but not desperate, sad or angry. Don't get emotional. You have asked something and you have got an answer. It is not what you wanted, you understand but you are not willing to have a non-relationship.
Wish him the best wishes, dump him and DON'T HAVE sex with him anymore. Don't try to be friends. Cut any contact and move on your life. See other men. The sea is plenty of fish and, being a young woman, you won't lack attention from men.
If he comes crawling back, it is up to you to accept him. I wouldn't. If he is not able to utter the “relationship” word after six months, you will have trouble get him to commit, to marry, to have children.
In any case, don't fantasize about him crawling back. Move on. You have lost six months but you don't want to lose more than that.
This advice doesn't guarantee success but it is the best you can unlike the terrible advice of seeing other men, which only will lower your value in his eyes. If you were mean, you would know how TERRIBLE this advice is. It is like telling a man that, in order to get a woman, he has to beg and whine in front of her. It is that bad.
I agree with the ExNewYorker post. I am a middle age guy (39) and I was a beta. While I was a beta, I couldn’t have sex or affection. I lost the virginity at the age of 27 (this was the age of my first kiss too, what a loser, haha). When I became an alpha (because of my job and my going to a foreign country), I started having lots of attention from different women. I am having sex with three of them right now (they know that I am not exclusive because I hate lies). It is hard to settle when you have so many options and you are having the time of your life.
Many women in their 20s feel this way too. They want to play the ground and sow wild oats. With so many men interested, why settle?
I laugh when some woman tells me “men have so many options”. The true reality is that “alpha men have so many options”. For each man like me who has three women, there are two men that are alone, since the gender ratio is approximately is 1:1. Women prefer to chase the alpha (or to dream with him) than settle with a beta only for them.
” Women are in a tight spot. No guy will put in the effort for a woman who wants to wait very long. He’s just got too many potential options”
Please, rephrase. No ALPHA guy will put in the effort for a woman…..
Women prefer to have a share of an alpha than to have a whole beta. This is human nature. Nothing to criticize. But it is better to see the situation clearly. Truth will set you free…
notagentleman, I appreciate your leaving a comment, and I'm in full agreement with most of your advice. I think it matches mine pretty closely, actually. Let me respond bit by bit:
1. It is very useful to have guys weigh in here. I always feel that a male perspective is valuable, even if it contradicts my advice. Here's the thing about advice: Women giving advice to women leaves out the guy's perspective, as you point out. However, guys giving advice to women often falls short of the mark a bit because they don't understand how women think, or what they might or might not be willing to undertake. Asking a Greek person for advice about Americans might be very helpful if that Greek person has spent time with Americans, learning their customs, attitudes, etc. through experience. That might be the best source of information for a fellow Greek, who understands the Greek perspective and cultural viewpoint.
2. You mention that women are very selective about who they are in a relationship with. This is true evolutionarily speaking – women choose mates based on a wide array of attributes. However, in the hookup era, where many guys believe that they can obtain sex from a variety of women, men are declining the opportunity to commit. They'd rather play the field in general, figuring someone better could come along any moment. In fact, many guys who would have struggled in the dating era can now get a girlfriend if they are willing to commit. It's a simple reflection of supply and demand.
3. I clearly state in the post that I don't EVER think it's advisable to have sex with two men at the same time. I encourage her to continue spending time with him, enjoying his company, and having sex if she is emotionally able to do so. (This speaks to the issue of bonding, which you addressed.) In this way I believe our advice is the same. However, you need to understand that for a woman who is having sex, and feeling emotionally intimate, six months is a very long wait. Especially when the outcome is uncertain. There are many, many women out there who have followed your approach, even numerous times, only to be told at the end of the six months, “I've never lied to you. I've always said I don't want to be committed to a relationship.” You say it's only six months, that she is only 23. A woman in love does not want to learn in six months that she was never cared for in the same way. This kind of relationship experience is devastating, and screws women up for a period after they end. Before she knows it, she's 30.
4. I do really like your script for how Meghan should talk with him in six months. It's good strategic advice.
As I said, I think you and I are on the same page. However, in the absence of any kind of intent on his part, she should live a very full life that does not include spending too much time with him. She should prevent the relationship from getting too serious. It's not playing games, it's not about trying to make him jealous. I stated that clearly. He has dictated the rules, she is just following them. If he wants to spend more time with her, he will have to say so. If he doesn't want her meeting other guys, hanging out (even without sex) he will have to say so. If he does say so, it's a commitment.
I think it's pretty clear why the guy in question isn't committing: because he can get away with it. He basically managed to get a pretty young woman to fall into his lap, without any major effort on his part, and now has pretty much a “friends with benefits” arrangement with her. What's not to like? He doesn't need to put much emotional capital into the relationship, and he can “keep his eyes open” for someone else, if he wants to. Pretty much a sweet situation for him (no so for her, of course).
The problem is that Meghan wound up working backwards here, trying to get the relationship AFTER the hookup. That's hard to do, particularly if the guy in question has cad-like tendencies. And yes, I think the guy here is a cad. I mean, the “we don't need a label for what we have” or “I think things are great just as they are now” excuses are standard cad lines.
Now that's not to say all hookups are bad. Not everyone wants a relationship, I imagine, but to look for a relationship via hookups is a recipe for being strung along by the many cads out there who have no compulsion against being jerks like that.
So, at this point, Meghan's in a tight spot. I guess I kind of agree with notagentleman here, take some more time and then put a strong ultimatum down. And take the time to study the guy to see if he really is worth the ultimatum; maybe he isn't a real cad (though my male instinct says yes), but just interested in his job/work/studies/something else more than committing to a relationship.
Hi ENY, what you are saying makes perfect sense. EXCEPT. The notion that a girl won't put out until after the relationship is official is completely extinct. Guys won't stand for it. It's one of the compromises that women are making to get to the holy grail of commitment. Basically, you've summed up why I write. Women are in a tight spot. No guy will put in the effort for a woman who wants to wait very long. He's just got too many potential options. And also, understandably, guys want to see if the sex is good before they agree to be exclusive.
I don't see that turning around anytime soon. That's why I write so much about choosing a man based on evident character traits. Hence, my dads vs. cads shtick.
I see what you're saying. However, I think there is something unsaid in what you wrote: “No guy will put in the effort for a woman who wants to wait very long. He's just got too many potential options.” I think the bitter reality is that a large majority of women are looking for the “holy grail of commitment” from the wrong guys, the guys who have “too many potential options”, i.e. the cads/alphas. The betas are out there, and they don't have the “many potential options”, but they generally are ignored in the dating game. But I doubt the average woman is going to want to give the betas a try (the clever ones that do generally can pick the best of the betas).
And I agree in that I don't see it turning around either. So my advice probably only helps the small subset of women who are future-oriented enough to keep a sharp out for the best of the betas. I used to think it was the betas who had it the hardest in the combat dating world, but it seems that it's maybe the women who are hooking up with the alphas/cads expecting the ” holy grail of commitment”. At least the beta has time and the possibility of learning some Game, but the women have almost no chance of reforming the cad.
So true! I doubt if cads can ever be reformed, but certainly not before the age of 30 or so. I think Betas with some ambition (like you had) are our best hope. They're going to get it together, polish the social skills, adding Game to a solid foundation of character. That's you, that's my husband, I do believe that's a pretty significant chunk of American men. Women can't choose Betas if they're not showing up. Resentment and anger may be justified, but they're not going to advance anyone's cause.
Thanks for leaving a comment, AGWHTBM. I understand your point of view, but I think it depends a lot on the social skills of the beta male in question. I imagine that when you found yourself in another country with options, and you began to feel successful with women, your whole demeanor and level of confidence changed. I suspect that if you returned to the U.S., you would find that you have options, not return to feeling like a loser.
Here, where hooking up has become the norm, physical intimacy precedes emotional intimacy. That’s the script. I’m sure you can imagine that many men sign off after the physical, and before the emotional kicks in. This is certainly true of Alpha males, but with an ever increasing number of Betas mimicking those behaviors, it’s getting harder and harder for many young women to find a boyfriend. Of course, Betas who are willing to put forth the effort can’t get stuck feeling like losers. I know it’s hard, but they need to get out there and interact with women in order for them to have a shot.
I have a few general comments:
* Have you ever noticed that there's a subset of women (and men whose sisters and mothers are in the subset) who are fond of declaring that women are incapable, or virtually incapable, of having sex without falling madly in love, or wanting a commitment from every guy who gives them a little attention? In CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), we call this “all or nothing thinking.” There are a lot of women who can and do have sex without demanding a relationship, or even wanting one. There are also a lot of women who get all commitment-crazy before they've finished the after-sex cigarette. It doesn't take being a man or woman to recognize that humans are very diverse. It takes open eyes and the willingness to recognize the diversity of life. Incidentally, it does appear that as women get older, it often becomes easier for them to separate sex and love.
* Sex and Dating is a competition, and humans are NOT just female selectors. It's true that at the end of the night, the woman decides whether or not to take her panties off, but before that happens, somebody has to approach her. Men select the women they're going to approach. While we're going on and on about how women don't select betas, we should also remember that men don't select prudes or frumps. Women give off body language signals (as well as signals from their clothes) that give men clues to their sexual availability, drive, and adventurousness. Here's a hint to women: If you want the best chance of betas approaching you, tailor your image to say, “I am not a party girl. I'm kind of shy, but for the right man — a gentle, understanding man — there's a sexual eruption just waiting to happen.”
* Susan, I'll be honest… I'm puzzled when someone is complaining about male vs. female perspective when BOTH a male and a female are saying the same thing — sexual compatibility is one of the things a guy is looking for BEFORE he will commit. Yes, it's true that there's a small group of guys who will wait several months to have sex, but it's a small group, and let's not be so kind as to be incorrect. Most guys who CAN have sex early and often WILL have sex early and often. If you find a guy who is willing to wait six months, realize that there's a good reason for it, and it's almost certainly not niceness. (Or, if this guy is not desperate, there's a good chance he's got a fuckbuddy, so he doesn't mind waiting for someone else.)
* Again, I'll agree with Susan that I'm not saying women should go out and try to have sex with two or more men at the same time. (More all or nothing thinking here!!) However, I think if I was a woman, I would feel rather infantilized if someone told me that once I had had sex with a man, I'd have to have sex ONLY with him until HE decided to commit to a monogamous relationship, for fear of destroying my poor little commitment-dependent psyche. Hello?! Doesn't anyone else see this as another way for men to keep women subservient?
What I'm saying, and I think Susan is in more or less complete agreement, is that Meghan doesn't have to stop seeing Dude if she doesn't want to, but she does have to take stock of her own emotional investment, and for her own protection, back off significantly. Then, IF someone comes along who gets her juices flowing, she has every right to give him a shot, and she doesn't owe Dude any explanation. (She does owe him the information, though. Sexual health… diseases, etc…) If the New Dude doesn't rock her world, it doesn't make her a bad person for having given it a shot.
All this nonsense about forcing women into serial monogamy or nothing is so 20th century. I wish we could get past it.
Hamby,
1. I know that there are many women who want sex without commitment, though in all honesty, they don't tend to find me online. However, I know it to be true – women (and men) are under great pressure to achieve in college and beyond. A relationship is often perceived by both sexes as a drain on energy. That's where FWBs fit the bill, though hormones released during sex do often wreak havoc with these arrangements. I think that rather than there being certain women who want something casual, and others who are the type for a relationship, it's more of a case of women cycling through different phases. An intense relationship might be followed by keeping things casual, for example.
2. I'm glad you addressed the question of female selection. I know it's hard-wired from an evo psych standpoint. However, it's also true that women don't stand around choosing guys like they're bidding at auction. They select the male based on the available options. Options usually include men who have signaled attraction and potential willingness to commit resources. In a social setting where few men are indicating the willingness to commit, women often feel like there are no potential suitors to select from.
3. Yeah, I agree. Sexual compatibility is a real concern, and a valid one, IMO. If someone is going to take themselves out of circulation, it stands to reason that they want to know in advance that the sex will be great. There's just no reason to gamble with that aspect of a relationship, when it is critically important to both women and men. Still, it's obviously a bit more risky for women to grant sexual access early – there's the ever-present double standard, and the risk of attachment/bonding more than the male.
4. Yes, I do think you and I are on the same page here. I have to say, I find it confounding to hear a variety of male perspectives, though perhaps I shouldn't. notagentleman sees things one way, another guy another way. Strategy comes into play, i.e. Game, and opinions vary mostly around the issue of how soon to show your hand. When a relationship is the goal, I personally endorse any strategy that is direct, confident, and honest. I think that is more effective than various push/pull techniques, or feigning indifference, which can backfire. Those things can increase sexual tension, as we've previously discussed, but I consider them best for short-term objectives.
>I can not help but wonder if you tried dating girls in your bottom 80%
*Bangs head against table*
Veronica even Susana gets it more than you do. Ask her about how 80% of women go after the top 20% of men. I would gladly go after the bottom 20% of women that are left, but that has been a failure too. Even if the bottom 20% of women got together with a guy from the bottom 80% of guys that means the bottom 60% of guys are out in the cold. In other words hoping for women to change their behavior is all that we can do. In other words, there are no options since that won't happen. Women have no reason to change.
>I know girls who are not considered beautiful according to rigid standards and they get rejected by guys and told in their faces that they are unattractive in most brutal and imaginative ways
Why are you blaming me and other men in the bottom 80% of men for the actions of the top 20% of men? You are completely clueless about what is happening to most men.
>And just as you believe guys have a right to be against the women's movement and still complain about being 30 year old virgins, women have a right to overlook you and any guy they wish to and still complain about not being in a relationship.
Being against the women's movement isn't just about being 30 year old virgins. It's about REAL ISSUES like paternity fraud, the false rape industry, the anti-male divorce industry, how men are losing jobs due to affirmative action, how women are taking away children from their fathers and denigrating fatherhood. Female relationship behavior is minimal in comparison when the rest of these things will be the subject of “Nuremberg trials” in the future.
>It will not necessarily get either of you very far, but hey, you have your rights.
It won't get them very far, but it will get me far since with all of the non-relationship facets of being against the womens movement I am fighting for my freedom and the freedom of all men.
In regards to the whole 80-20% debate, there are three points that often get overlooked.
1) What difference does it make what percentage of guys are or are not succesful with women? The only guy whose relationship satisfaction you have control over is your own.
2) Even if these percentages are true, in my experience, they're also fluid. Being in the 20% now doesn't guarantee you'll stay there. And there's room for upward mobility in the have-nots. Plus, context goes a long way. Also, context goes a long way. In certain social contexts, I'm in the 20% . Move me across the street, and I'm just another spear-carrier.
3) You don't need EVERY woman, or even MOST women to like you. All you need to do is find the ones compatible with you.
Those are my beta male thoughts, anyway.
Welcome, dan, thanks for leaving a comment. You call yourself a beta male, but obviously you feel good about your ability to relate to women. I agree completely with everything you say here. One trap that guys fall into is thinking that the only choices they have are to be a loser, or else to morph into some asshat PUA to get girls. When in reality, there's a ton of room for upward mobility – a guy can improve his chances with women dramatically just by learning some basics about how to manage his interest in a woman. It's about balance and timing, essentially.
It's also very true that context matters a great deal. Straight guys at Vassar have it made. Women at engineering schools have it made. As a woman at business school, I had a lot of options. So the lesson here? Figure out where your odds are better and go there.
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