The Power You Gain When You Lay It On the Line
If you want more love
Why don’t you say so?
If you want more love
Why don’t you say so?
Just say so
John Mayer, Heartbreak Warfare
The irony of using John Mayer to give advice about relationships is not lost on me. Here’s the dialog that I imagine ensued when he really said those words to Jennifer Aniston a woman:
Her: I want more love.
JM: Sorry!
Her: Sorry?
JM: Sorry for not being sorry!
I can really get behind this lyric. (She was an idiot to get involved with him in the first place.)
If you want more love, say so. Say it to the object of your affection. Do it. Today.
“Wait up,” you say. “That’s needy, desperate, pathetic! That’s showing my hand all at once!”
Bear with me here. I’m going to explain why laying it on the line may be your most effective strategy for getting the person you want.
1. Rituals around mating have gotten very, very complicated.
In an era where physical intimacy comes first, people are confused about how to signal what they want. Whether you’re looking for something casual or a real relationship, it’s very difficult to identify people who want the same things you do. If you’re down to hook up, but that’s it, how do you avoid becoming embroiled in some drama where the other person develops feelings and starts calling you out for treating them poorly? If you want a relationship, how do you signal that as you’re making out with a cute new guy who’s definitely trying to get you back to his place?
- Negotiating terms up front is awkward, to say the least.
- Liquid courage is often relied upon heavily in these scenarios, which further serves to obscure intent.
2. The Principle of Least Interest is everyone’s favorite strategy.
Willard Waller, a sociologist at Columbia University, studied dating and family relations. He coined the term Principle of Least Interest in 1937: The generalization that, in any relationship, the person who cares least about maintaining it is in the best bargaining position.
This is a term that reflects the natural and unequal emotional investment in every relationship. It was not meant to be used as a dating strategy! The PLI is intuitively obvious. If I don’t care if you leave me, you have no power over me. If I’m dating you because there’s nothing better to do right now, then you’d better be careful with your emotional investment, because I won’t hesitate to trade up if I get the chance. The person who doesn’t care gets the upper hand.
The problem with the modern application of this concept is that everyone is pretending to be the least interested party.
How many women have had a guy they care about make a scene by screaming “I don’t give a fuck!” after some perceived slight?
How many men have been given the cold shoulder, or worse, watch a woman they care for flirt with other guys, because of something he did, even though he is clueless as to what his offense was?
More time is spent assuming an attitude of not caring than in building real connections. It’s gotten to the point where we may need a new term: the Principle of Zero Interest. Use it to get zero results.
3. Most of the e-mails I receive are some variation of the problem that one or both people don’t know what is going on in the relationship.
Certainly, the writer usually feels confused. Sometimes the “back and forth,” the “push/pull” is so longstanding, so extreme, that it’s hard to see how things could ever become clear. Both parties are completely stressed out after spending months not knowing where they stand, or what their relationship really means, if anything. Once a relationship gets to this point, it’s very difficult to clear the air. You’ve got to cut straight to the chase and see if you can move forward and build on what you’ve created so far, even if it’s a mess. Obviously, this is an enormous waste of everyone’s time and emotional energy.
How can laying it on the line strengthen your position?
We often make the mistake of thinking that confessing our interest or true feelings makes us vulnerable in the eyes of the other person, and we tend to equate that with being pathetic and weak. We feel like we’re begging because we don’t have any other options. But a person who can comfortably reveal vulnerability is a person with very high self-esteem.
What if you can acknowledge what you really feel for someone precisely because:
- You are strong and sure,
- You believe you are worthy of having your feelings reciprocated,
- You expect to be rewarded instead of punished,
- You are not ashamed of your ability to love and be loved,
- You are far more likely to receive an honest response if you’ve initiated an honest and open conversation.
1. State your position with calm certainty and take responsibility for your feelings.
Will you be rejected? Perhaps. But you will not be pitied. There is no shame in caring for someone, even if they don’t feel the same way about you. It’s part of the human condition, and every one of us experiences it. You know that you have a lot to offer, and you will move on to find someone else who is better suited to appreciate you.
2. Convey your security and confidence.
Everyone knows that the bad boys usually wind up getting the women they want. Why? Because they don’t take no for an answer. They are cocky and determined. They embrace the challenge, enjoying it every step of the way. Their infallible sense of deserving the best on offer is flattering and sexy. This works better for men than for women, because women are more likely to appreciate self-confidence as a trait when choosing a mate, while men are more strictly visual.
However, self-confidence is appealing to both sexes. It conveys that you know your own value and that you believe you have options. Your future happiness is not riding on this one encounter. You have expressed interest, but you have not relinquished power or control over your own life.
3. In executing this strategy:
DON’T tell the person they’re wrong or stupid for taking a pass.
“I’m glad I brought this up. It’s good to know where things stand.”
DON’T react with strong emotion.
“OK, that’s cool. No hard feelings.”
DO hold the person accountable for any deceit or manipulation.
“Really? I’m surprised to hear you say that. You’ve been sending some pretty mixed messages.”
DO let go after one conversation if the interest is not mutual.
“Allright, I’m sure I’ll see you around.”
Of course, if it works out, you hardly need my advice! I’ll close with a true story. A young woman was talking with me about her friendships with three different guys. At various times, all three of them have tried to move themselves out of the Friend Zone, and she has never felt attracted to any of them.
I. The first kept trying to touch her casually at a party one night, but the vibe was new/odd and she could tell he was nervous. When she walked outside for some air, he followed and lunged for her. She was completely taken aback.
I asked her if any part of her would like to kiss him. She said, “No, I was repulsed!”
II. The second suggested they hang out but acted moody and sulky all night. It was the only time they’d ever hung out alone, so she wondered what was up. He was not at all talkative, and it created an almost intolerable awkwardness. A few days later a friend of his approached her to tell her he was smitten, and was she interested? She was not. Having his friend wing for him after a pretty unsuccessful hang seemed totally out of whack. She wondered what he could be thinking.
When I asked her if she’d like to kiss him, she said, “I don’t even want to be alone with him again.”
III. The third said casually one night at a bar, “Hey, just so you know, I’m feeling it. I’m attracted to you.” She wasn’t expecting it at all, and blurted, “Uh, well, I love you. As a friend.” He replied, “It’s not our time. We’ll just wait a bit. We’ll have our time, you’ll see.” Now, this confident declaration did not make her swoon or jump into his arms. But.
I asked her if she wants to kiss him. And you know what she said? “Well, I don’t NOT want to kiss him.”
Do you see?
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I will agree emphatically with this. Don't dance around, don't hint, just say it. (Isn't that in many 'guy' tip lists?) Mixed messages mean no, especially in this day and age. Non-verbal cues are not that well understood by most guys. I have trouble understanding my own non-verbal cues, let alone someone else's.
Being honest doesn't mean that you will get an honest answer, but there are no sure things in relationships. Giving up the struggle for the 'least interested' position for the moral high ground position isn't too bad of a move, assuming that you aren't a skilled player.
Just a thought: I recently studied Game Theory, and the Principle of Least Interest reminds me of Prisoner's Dilemma. According to Axelrod (“The Evolution of Co-operation”), the best strategy for playing repeated rounds of Prisoner's Dilemma is 'tit for tat', so that you co-operate in the first move and after that do whatever the other does. I guess this can't be exactly applied to relationships, but I found this idea interesting.
Tweell, thanks. Yes, I agree, there is something to be said for the moral high ground. It comes with dignity, for one thing.
I was just talking about this with a friend. I actually referenced John Mayer too. It would be so nice if everyone just was honest about what was going on. Just think if my friends and I were honest and the guys honest back we would have a lot less to analyze and talk about on girls nights.
I am honest about what I want and sometimes, I think I am made to feel naive…as in having total douchebags who have a lot less going for them wondering why on earth I would think that they might actually be interested in me in a serious way. That way, they save face when it all goes to sh#t…
In my opinion, the least interested position is a high school ploy and shouldn't be used for establishing relationships between adults. Why would I hang around with you or be seeing you if I wasn't interested? why would I waste my time? it just doesn't make sense – if i wasn't into you, I would not give you any of my precious spare time.
I agree with being honest…your inituition will feel it if you're not getting an honest answer and if you get a negative honest answer, you can escape with most of your dignity.
My advice is to use the least interested principle after you've moved on from a douchebag – punish him…do not accept his or her apology for his or her poor behaviour…maybe this way, they'll be a better person for the next person he or she meets.
I agree this tactic works for men, but I don't really see it working all that well for women. Our role in relationships is usually to be the resistor, while the men are usually the aggressors. When women start getting aggressive & upfront, men sometimes start wondering what's wrong with you that you're so desperate/needy you need to have the DTR before anything is even started, even if that's not the case. If I were a guy, that's how I'd read the situation, anyway.
Ah yes, but perhaps you would miss the drama! I'm all for straight-up communication, but it definitely short-circuits drama.
Well, I don't know if it would work in the sense of you'd get the guy. But if you're getting mixed messages from a guy, it might be better to figure out what you want and ask for it. Even if he says no, at least you'd have your answer. And then you could move on, which would have to be better than staying on the flirtatious roller-coaster.
Loved, loved, loved this post!!
'More time is spent assuming an attitude of not caring than in building real connections.'
I think you nailed it with that single sentence. I know so many people dealing with this issue, couples where both parties are very interested but pretending aloofness in order to keep the upper hand. I think the reason why we sometimes put up with so much is that we're just so afraid of being rejected, of getting hurt, that we'd rather not know.. and consequently, we risk staying in uncertainty for a precious long time.
But that situation is also bad because it kills romance, it kills spontaneity and even more painfully, it kills the possibility of building a real, deep connection, because in order to do that you have to show your scars.
I agree it takes a lot of courage for a girl and even that it might not be the best strategy- to approach a guy out the blue and bluntly express interest, like the third guy did in Susan's example- but once it's obvious the guy is sexually atracted to her and she just can't tell whether that attraction could mean something more, i think it's a great idea to lay it on the line!
Hi, Anni! Wow, that is an interesting thought. In Prisoner's Dilemma, the rational choice carries some penalty. It's not the best possible outcome for either prisoner. In relationships, it's not rational to initiate THE TALK when you first meet someone, or you'll kill the buzz. It's more rational to wait. By waiting, though, you risk wasting time and emotional investment. Not sure if this makes sense, just thinking “aloud” here, haha!
Actually, you made an argument here for not being 100% open! When everyone lays their cards on the table, we lose the intrigue, that push/pull, all the drama. Yes, we could do with a lot less of that, but it also makes life more interesting sometimes. I don't think women want to know everything up front – they want to earn a man's commitment, not have it handed to them. But when you know what you want, and you're not getting it? Then I think you can and should speak up.
Hi, Nat. Ugh, that is the worst when someone acts like you're crazy to think they might care. It's so demeaning and disrespectful, and the behavior of a real jerk. I saw a movie scene like this – the guy tells the woman that he loves her and her response is “Really?! That's so cute!” And of course, he feels deeply ashamed. His error was in falling for someone so shallow and self-absorbed in that case, not in stating his true feelings.
PLI works well in the era of hooking up, because sex alone is presumably one reason I might be seen with you or give you some of my spare time. That doesn't mean I care one bit about you as a person. In fact, I'll be rewarded by my buddies if I can pull this off without getting tied down to one woman.
As for using PLI after moving on from a DB, hopefully you won't have to pretend, you really will be disinterested. Buy we all know that it can take awhile to get over someone, even someone who's treated you poorly. So yes, in that case, fake it till you make it, and don't let them off the hook.
I agree with both verie44 and Lisette here. It's all a question of balance and timing. It is true that men like to pursue, and that women don't enjoy being the aggressor. Most women do not relish the idea of making moves on a man. I'm not suggesting that women approach a guy they barely know and start drawing up the prenup, haha. And I acknowledge that there is no way to have the DTR talk at the very beginning – there will always be a certain amount of risk involved in relationships, there are no guarantees. Even if someone tells you on Saturday they are seeking a relationship, they may decide within two weeks that you're not the right one, and then you've lost out anyway.
On the other hand, guys often indicate that they wish women would take more initiative, indicate their interest more, etc. I know if I were a guy, constantly risking rejection would get pretty old. No matter how much I enjoy the chase, if I don't get the girl I want in the end, that sucks.
However, this post assumes that you've already gotten involved with a person, it's not so much about the first night out. When you know someone, and you know what you want from them, I believe your chances of getting that are better if you can state that openly and honestly. At that point, the guy knows you, and wouldn't think you're speaking from a place of creepy neediness.
As Lisette says, when you're getting mixed messages, ALWAYS ask what's up. That's a bit different – that's not laying it on the line in terms of your own feelings, necessarily. But you can demand respect by calling someone out if you think they're playing you.
I really liked this post. I had this conversation a while ago with a man that I am seeing. There were a lot of mixed messages and I did not know where we were going.
I wanted to have a real relationship. But I was not upfront with my wishes, and he wasn't getting the message.
I was really resenting it, and I was angry.
It's funny, isn't it. Everybody knows that most people respond positively to a sincere request (for love) rather than being blamed for not giving enough. Yet I was defensive rather than asking for what I wanted.
Eventually I figured that I would not regret it, because being honest was better than later asking myself: “what if?”
I told him about my feelings for him. It was really scary! He told me that I did not want a real relationship. He wanted his freedom. I had expected him to say that so it was not really a big shock. It actually wasn't that bad. I was relieved after the conversation, like a weight was lifted of my shoulders. I knew his freedom was important to him. I told him I was not angry, and that things wouldn't be awkward between us.
A couple of weeks later he told me that he wanted to be with me. And announced to all his friends and family that we had a relationship. Cool huh!
We have a good connection now. He is still quite independent, but It's part of who he is, and I don't feel threathened by it anymore.
I believe that really made the difference. By being more loving and accepting towards him, I changed myself without changing him. And yet, he changed as soon as I changed.
Love, Cindy
Oops, I meant “He told me that *HE* did not want a real relationship.”
Melissa, you raise an important point here, also touched on by others. The recommendations will never be precisely the same for men and women. More and more, I'm writing for a mixed audience, so I'm still getting the hang of that.
I think Guy #3 made a smart move – I think he could definitely attract her if he stays smart about it. However, I generally would suggest something less direct for women – perhaps a woman could say something flirtatious to a guy friend she's crushing on.
When two people have been hanging out, hooking up, but NOT talking about what any of it means, that's when women get into trouble with their feelings. In that case, a woman can state what she wants confidently. You could say, for example, “Listen, I like hooking up with you, but I'm not really down for a FWB. I'd like to spend more time with you.” If he says, yup, it's all good. He's not going to say no if he likes her too, just because she brought it up.
And the worst thing ever, but so, so common? When both people just keep saying to each other “What do you want?” Neither one is willing to assume one iota of risk, and they spend hours dodging the question. It's a terrible way to have The Talk. Much better to say “Here's what I want. What do you want?” Scary? Yes. But much smarter and more efficient in the end.
Cindy, hi! Thanks for commenting, it's nice to meet you.
I love this story! Wow, what a great happy ending! OK, I'm going to take this apart a little bit, it's just so good:
1. You hit on something really important here. You felt angry and resentful that he wasn't giving you what you wanted. Even though you'd never told him what you wanted. This happens ALL THE TIME. Of course we get frustrated when we're getting mixed messages. The emotional roller coaster is no fun, and it takes it toll after a while. It's normal to start feeling angry, and that is another good reason to get your feelings off your chest.
2. Even though you were initially rejected, you felt relieved. I love that! It's so true – we can be heartbroken but also relieved at the same time. In fact, we often feel both those things, because we've known somewhere within ourselves that the person breaking our heart is not really right for us. We want them to be right, but they're not. So when they go away, we feel hurt and we miss them, but we know that if we'd gotten what we wanted right then, we might have embarked on a doomed relationship.
3. You were so generous to not blame him for wanting his freedom. You were able to see that his needs were valid, and that the two of you didn't want or need the same thing right now. You didn't blame yourself as being not good enough to be dateable, which is something women often feel. Because you were able to be so cool about it, he was able to come back and talk again later. If you'd made a ton of drama, that wouldn't have been likely, or perhaps even impossible.
4. YAY! He came to his senses! He deserves credit for laying it on the line at that point. And you do too for accepting him for exactly who he is.
“By being more loving and accepting towards him, I changed myself without changing him. And yet, he changed as soon as I changed. “
This is so powerful. I want to think about this — it might make a great post!
You forgot the part about “hear his response.” If you lay it on the line and he responds with anything less than a positive, *listen* to him. Respect him enough to take him at his word. Don't hang around hoping the answer will change. Don't convince yourself that he just doesn't know his own mind. Don't tease out that one little hopeful comment and ignore the big message. Accept and move on.
This also goes for guys who tell you anything about themselves to warn you off. Listen. Be warned. Run!
Aldonza, this is so true! Thanks for making that point. This is part of what Cindy did so well.
One of the biggest mistakes women make is trying to change the mind of a guy about being in a relationship. When a guy says, “I'd be a terrible boyfriend,” it is very, very important to take him at his word. Women hear, “I'm afraid I'm not good enough for you,” when in reality he's saying, “I have no interest in being your boyfriend and will treat you like crap. So let's keep it casual, and I'll treat you like crap.”
Harsh but true.
So… was it the honesty of guy number three or the confidence? It's really hard to tell. When a guy makes a move on a girl, 99.9 out of a hundred times, it's because he's interested. So the honesty in making a move… I dunno. I think it was probably the confidence more than the honesty.
But I get where you're going, and I conditionally agree. But… only conditionally.
Just last night, I was at a bar for a girl's birthday party. There was another group of girls that was not there for the party, who I had hung out with last week. While I was having a good time and flirting with the birthday party group, I was approached by a girl from the other group. It was the girl I had pretty much ignored completely when I hung out with her and her friends last week.
Now I know she's at least a little bit interested. (The sad part is that I'm not interested in her, and I was ignoring her because I think she's a spoiled princess, but that's beside the point.)
I didn't comment on your last post about late maturation of men, but I think there's a tie-in here for both men and women. Teenage girls spend a LOT of time texting on Blackberries and NOT speaking directly to boys and watching their body language. A lot of 20-something women's only frequent interaction with men is at the workplace, where the rules are much, much different than at bars.
Social intelligence is a learned skill. Yes, women are naturally better at intuitively reading other people's intentions, but there's still a lot of subtlety involved, and the more women practice it, the better they get. (As a side note, I think online dating is stunting our social growth, too.)
So back to my situation: This girl misinterpreted disinterest from me. She thought it meant I'm interested. Had she been more socially savvy, she would have noticed that I wasn't ignoring her the way a player would. When she talked to me, I wasn't teasing her. I was giving her curt one syllable answers and then going back to whatever I was doing. That's genuine disinterest. If I had been interested in her, I'd have used push-pull. As it is, all I did was push. These are signals that more experienced women would have picked up on.
So… the condition that I place on agreeing with you is that I think honesty is good, but social intelligence cuts down on the need for overt declarations at first. Your commenters are right. Many men take straight up confessions of interest as too pushy, or desperate. There are ways to tell a guy you're interested without saying a word. Honesty, I think, is much more important after the initial chase.
Also, honesty too early is a dealbreaker when it comes to LTRs. Every guy with any sense knows that 9 out of 10 women probably want a LTR at some point. Sure, you come across a few who are just out to make their ex jealous and don't really care a thing about you, but for the most part, if a girl is having sex with you, she's got some hope that a LTR will happen. So… being honest about wanting a LTR is not good on the first night. Either hook up and accept the risk that it's just a hook up, or delay. Here's a good way to say it: “I'm not going to hook up with you tonight, but it's not because I'm not interested. I'm just a little drunk, and I don't want to do something for the wrong reasons. Here's my number. Call me tomorrow, and let's hang out later this week.”
Neat, huh? You're telling him you're not interested in casual sex, while giving him a clear sign of interest, and at the same time, he's getting the clear message that you're looking for something more serious.
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Social intelligence. Say it without saying it directly.
Oh… and give older men a try. Guys in their thirties are a lot smarter, usually better in bed, and have learned a thing or two about their own emotions.
Hamby, it was totally about the confidence. He is confident he will win her in the end, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the post – laying it on the line is about communicating effectively once you have something to discuss. Asking a man what he wants right up front is a dealbreaker, as I said above – it's beyond awkward. And it's too early to be reliable info anyway – he might want a relationship, but not with you.
Social intelligence is critically important, and I fear this is being adversely affected by technology, as you indicated. Texting, facebook, IMing – all of these leave out tone, emotional expression and body language. It's pretty hard to be socially intelligent when you are getting little practice reading cues.
“I'm not going to hook up with you tonight, but it's not because I'm not interested. I'm just a little drunk, and I don't want to do something for the wrong reasons. Here's my number. Call me tomorrow, and let's hang out later this week.”
Yes, I like this. A very good way of handling that situation.
Love the shameless plug for the Hambys of the world at the end! It's true – but women need to be careful there – guys who hit 40 without marrying may well not intend to ever do so. That's fine, as long as she knows what's up and is cool with it.
I think PLI is only Prisoner's Dilemma when both parties really are interested, but each shows less interest than they really feel because they fear losing their upper hand. If one party is genuinely not interested then it's a different story. I agree that being too open and honest too early will kill the buzz. I think PLI actually serves well to keep the sexual attraction going. Isn't uncertainty and a little bit of friction what creates sexual tension? It is not very satisfying to have someone you know you can have before you even try. Isn't it human nature to want something that we are not sure that we can have?
The problem is when two people who are obviously interested in each other cannot get out of the PLI norm. Playing this game can get very exhausting if continued for a long time. On the other hand, opening up and professing your true feelings to someone you haven't really been open and honest with so far, is very scary. It's easy to get angry and frustrated over not getting what you need. What I think could be the solution, is establishing a norm of honesty before you could reach such frustration. There are many small things that can be said that show you are genuinely interested in the other person, yet without telling it all in one go. If the reaction to those things is positive, then it can serve as a way to reach the more serious discussions more naturally and with less anxiety.
I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but I imagine 40 year olds who have never married are still a tiny minority. Most 30-somethings are divorced. I know there's still a big stigma for divorced men, but divorce happens for a LOT of reasons. If you stop thinking of it as “The Big D” and just look at it as a serious relationship that broke up, it's not so scary. Everybody's had a really serious relationship that ended, right? What difference does a piece of paper mean in terms of intimacy, compatibility, and happiness? Not much.
That surprises me, about divorce still being stigmatized. Not sure how that's possible when the odds are 50/50. I know a lot of women who couldn't care less, but they're probably in that same age range. A 22 year-old? That might be a tougher sell, especially if he has had his kids and doesn't want more.
When my brother divorced he was closing in on 50, and he went and registered online. Do you know what group he was interested in? Women under 35. PLEASE! Nice work if you can get it, but I don't think so. The divorce was financial hardship, he's got two kids every weekend. He'd do well to find a nice woman of about 40, who appreciates that he's a good man and still quite attractive.
Anni, it's true about uncertainty. Human beings love a challenge, and deplore anything too easily acquired. One of the things I tell women is: Always retain some air of mystery. That means don't ever reveal 100% of yourself to a man. Hold back 10%. Don't tell a man he is your everything, that you can't live without him. Ever. Worked for me! However, one can still be fully committed without sacrificing all independence.
I totally agree that establishing open and honest communication is a good thing. I also agree with all of the comments that warn about launching into direct and forthright communication too early. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that women go up to men they hardly know and say, “I want love from you.”
The objective has to make sense in the context of the history of the two people. But a woman might say, in the middle of a great conversation, “You're great, I'm really enjoying talking to you!” Or she might say, “You're a cutie” in a very flirtatious way if it feels right. Believe me, a man who is already attracted will consider this feedback manna from heaven. And if he's not? NEXT!
Aldonza is spot on. Most women doubt that a guy really means the negative message he's sending out because …it's sort of like…you can't really be that much of a douchebag…and then a couple of months laters…oops, yes, you already told me you were a douchebag and I didn't listen because I didn't think you'd be so okay with being a douchebag to my face!
When a guy is hedging his bets, move along straight away.
Susan – did you have words with your brother about 35-year-olds? Why wasn't he looking in his own age group? Why are men like that?? They don't see any limits on their own desirability.
Nat, yeah, Aldonza is a wise woman. She's been commenting quite a bit lately, and her comments are always spot on. (I love the Brit speak!)
I did tell my brother that he was being an idiot, frankly. I don't think he got too many takers, which was probably a much more powerful message. My brother is a great guy, he has a lot to offer, but not so much from a 30 year-old babe's point of view. To be honest, I think he was most interested in women in their 20s. Doubt it!
The truth is, a divorced man with children has considerable financial obligations most of the time. Many women are happy to find love wherever, but that's more likely to happen as a woman ages. A woman in her 20s is unlikely to settle in that way, IMO.
I'm 53, and happily married, but honestly, I think I'm the shit, haha. If my husband left me, I'd get out there and make some things happen. But I know that most men on the market want younger women – they're biologically programmed to seek cues of fertility. At some point, though, rationality must prevail, and men past a certain age will “settle” for women who are closer to them in age.
Per usual I think Hamby hit the nail on the head!!
Now if someone could point me in the direction of 30-something men NOT acting like college frat boys I would be happy!!
Frankly, speaking as his “target audience”, he's got an uphill battle with the 40yos too. I know a lot of guys talk about the entitled girls in their twenties, but they're nothing to the entitled guys in their late 40s – 60s. Most of these guys have *not* aged well. For every “Scott Brown” guy at 50, a financially and politically successful tri-athlete who also happens to be a complete hottie with that “alpha” military background, there are the scores of “never has-beens” toiling away at mediocre jobs, bellies over their belts, hairlines rapidly retreating, and thinking that they're at the “all babe buffet” for divorced men. A good many of them approached me online and acted as though I should be grateful for any attention because I happen to be on the wrong side of 40.
Now a nice guy of 50 who has stayed in good shape, is reasonably successful and *appreciative* of me as an attractive woman…that'd work just nicely. But 10+/- years is my outside limit for dating range.
Just curious…how is he doing now?
Hehe! Must remember to thank my fan club publicly!
I have the perspective of being a lifelong, non-professional observer of human nature, a voracious reader on the topic, along with significant time spent in the trenches of post-marital dating. An intrepid nature means I also make more mistakes faster than anybody.
And if you think you're the shit, that's half the battle. Dating as an older woman, however, will test anyone's mettle. If you read too much of the PUA stuff, you can be left feeling like there isn't a man alive who would touch a post-40 woman (or an overweight woman, or a woman with children, or a woman less than an HB10…) So what if you don't appeal to the “pump and dump” crowd. I take that as a positive.
Women wanting alpha men and men wanting fertile women are just instincts. We have lots of them. Heck, I had an instinct just this morning to take a baseball bat to the fender of the Lexus that cut me off in traffic. I didn't do it though, because while I have instincts, I was also blessed with some small degree of higher reasoning…which ideally kicks in somewhere after the urge, but before I pick up the baseball bat.
Oh man, I love that “all babe buffet!” That is ridiculous. I have a suspicion they'll get a harsh reality check when they try to set up a real date. I have a friend who did a series for the local newspaper on online dating, which involved setting up profiles at several different sites, and going on a bunch of dates. You would not believe how dishonest these guys were – nearly every single one of them had misrepresented himself in terms of age, weight, etc. One guy came in a wheelchair, never having mentioned that he was disabled! I mean, did he think she was not going to notice? I'm sure he thought that once she was won over by his sparkling personality she wouldn't care. But she was really ticked off at the deception.
My brother is doing fine – no significant other, though. I'm not sure of the particulars, but I sure hope he's stopped eyeing the au pairs at the local playground.
Very well said, Aldonza. Truly. BTW, I've seen you commenting at Obisidian's and also on that deplorable post by Sofia re not caring about Haiti. Your voice of reason is very welcome!
Oh, he's still eyeing them. And he probably will until his eyes get too bad to notice the difference between them and a tree. That's men. I certainly don't begrudge them that!
I also don't blame him for trying a few hands at the “high stakes table” of dating. He may even win a hand or two with a much younger woman. And he may find that while he was spending all that time, money and energy wooing the flighty young ones, a quality woman went drifting by.
Indeed, I suspect this is exactly what has happened. I do think he could do just fine with a woman his own age, so his lack of success is probably attributable to him swimming in the wrong pond. Yikes, I hope he doesn't read my blog! Gaaaahhhh.
That's good advice. How would I apply it in real life:
There's this woman I took a class with last semester and I see her on campus sometimes, but we usually don't talk. (I didn't want to ask her while we were still taking classes together because that would be awkward.)
Anyway, I'm definately attracted to her physically but I want a real relationship and not a FWB. So… how would I ask her out in a way that clearly communicates:
1. I'm considering her for a romantic relationship and want to get to know her better.
2. I am not just asking her out platonically. (It would be really embarassing if I tried to kiss her at the end of the date and she says “OMG I thought we were just friends.)
3. I'm not just interested in her body.
4. I'm not desperate.
Thank you Susan!
Uhmm..let's wait for the all-knowing Susan to reply but meanwhile, i think that:
1. If you ask her out properly, i.e. calling from time to time instead of always texting, going out to dinner on a friday or saturday night, to a nice -not neccesarily expensive- restaurant, and if you can, picking up at her place, it's quite obvious that what you want is a date and not a friendly meeting.
2. I think you could just say that! 'I'd like to get to know you better'. I think that's the sweetest and most genuine expression of interest ever
Hamby, – and everybody else too!! – I'm waiting for Susan's reply on this, but I also want your opinion if possible. What if a girl is seeing a guy and wants to be exclusive BEFORE having sex with him? Could you give me an example of how to bring this up? Because it's not quite 'too early in a LTR' -since we have been dating for 6 weeks and talking almost everyday on the phone- but on the other hand, we haven't hooked up yet.
I think Melissa is now pretty much qualified to take over my blog! I'm 100% on board with her advice. Just a few thoughts for John:
Re #1: Melissa is not in the U.S. or a product of the American college scene, where this kind of dating is wonderful but relatively rare, especially on campus. However, her advice is solid: make a plan to hang out that is purposeful. Go somewhere, do something, and make the invitation either in person or with a call. Don't use group hangs to make moves – it feel opportunistic to women, who think it's about hooking up. And I agree about texting – it's so easy, with so little risk of rejection, that it seems like the easy way out.
Re #2: Aw, I love this. Yes. Perfect.
I will question your decision not to act on this when you were in class together. Yes, it might have been a bit awkward if she refused. But you could have been cool about it and things would have been OK. When the class ended, you lost your primary opportunity to talk with her. Now you will have to seek her out especially. There's nothing wrong with this, but in future, keep in mind that if you are willing to take the risk, you can save yourself a lot of time!
What I'd do next is walk right up to her when you see her and say, hey, how's it going? Then say, hey it would be good to catch up, you wanna grab lunch tomorrow? You could then say you'd like to get to know her better, or you could save that perhaps for the end of lunch.
Don't go for the kiss out of the blue. Over the course of a date, take the initiative to make eye contact, touch her affectionately on the shoulder, whatever. Hold her hand perhaps. Establish a vibe that is pretty flirty. If all of that goes well, she's down to kiss.
Be confident, that's the whole point of this post. You could act like Guy #3 and say I'd like to see you again, or I'm attracted to you, I'd like to get to know you better. Again, not out of the blue, but once you've laid the groundwork, take the leap. Your willingness to risk it will impress her much more than any awkward fumbling or uncertainty. Believe me. She won't be convinced unless you are.
Well if I just say “I want to get to know you better” that sounds kind of platonic doesn't it?
Ah, Hamby will have an opinion on this! I'm sure he'll respond, but in the meantime, you might check his comments on this post, they were helpful and informative:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/12/17/hookin...
For my part, I think it depends on you. Some women want to share their body with a man who loves them, and that's their right. In this day in age, though, it is a risky strategy. Based on your level of contact, when the time comes, it's totally appropriate and unsurprising for you to ask what having sex will mean to him. You could say that you want to clarify where things stand. Then you can decide whether to proceed based on what he said and your level of comfort with it.
However, in all honesty, I have to admit. Never once did I do that myself. I went for the sex when I felt the timing and chemistry was right. And it always worked out, but that was 25 years ago, and men were less commitment-shy.
Hmmm, no, not to me. It shows clear intent. You've thought about it, and want to spend more time with her. Plus, women believe (correctly, I think) that men don't go all out for platonic friendship. A guy who wanted that would be more casual, like, hey come with me, I'm going to grab a burrito. Do you see what I mean?
I'm interested to see what Melissa thinks, this was hers.
Really??
That's just sad. It's difficult for men to have intimate, non-sexual relationships. I remember a while ago I told a female friend she was “really interesting” and she thought that was a come on. That's stupid. I shouldn't have to sleep with a woman to get close to her.
Although women can make the same complaint about men.
Really??
That's just sad. It's difficult for men to have intimate, non-sexual relationships. I remember a while ago I told a female friend she was “really interesting” and she thought that was a come on. That's stupid. I shouldn't have to sleep with a woman to get close to her.
Although women can make the same complaint about men.
Oops. Didn't mean to repeat the comment.
John, I agree, and this shows your maturity! Especially in the age where hookups are the norm, women are prone to assume any interaction is just motivated by sex, which is a shame, because it actually prevents potential friendships, as you say.
#1, Susan! Good clarification!! i don't want John thinking he has to do something completely over the norm to get a girl to realize that he's interested in her… Hehehe, sorry about the cultural differences!
#2, I completely agree with Susan. If a guy tells me that, i would immediately think he's attracted to me. This comes from a girl who has many close guy friends, but trust me, all of these friendships developed over time and much more casually. Neither of them ever said something like that at the beginning of the friendship. And, i don't know, call me sexist or whatever, but i think it's natural for a girl to ponder if a guy who you have no connection to – friends in common, a joint assignment, etc. – approaches you is interested in you sexuallyromantically.
#1, Susan! Good clarification!! i don't want John thinking he has to do something completely over the norm to get a girl to realize that he's interested in her… Hehehe, sorry about the cultural differences!
#2, I completely agree with Susan. If a guy tells me that, i would immediately think he's attracted to me. This comes from a girl who has many close guy friends, but trust me, all of these friendships developed over time and much more casually. Neither of them ever said something like that at the beginning of the friendship. And, i don't know, call me sexist or whatever, but i think it's natural for a girl to ponder if a guy who you have no connection to – friends in common, a joint assignment, etc. – approaches you is interested in you sexuallyromantically.
I really don't know what to say to this. Sure, I guess it's a good thing that she wasn't utterly repulsed by him. But I think this only a happy moment/epiphany if you somehow think this interaction could not have gone any better. But the simple truth is that this really isn't the best he could've hoped for with her…and if he had been more careful from the start of their relationship about cultivating attraction and value then he would have had a romantic relationship with her long before now.
A guy shouldn't lay it on the line until he's sure she attracted to him…and if he had Game, he'd have known exactly where he stood—and what to do next.
Dragnet, welcome! Your comment is perfectly timed, because my next post is going to be a commentary on Game. You are 100% right of course. But everything is relative. Does this guy have tight Game? Um, no. But he's a hell of a lot better of than the other two, who have completely blown it. The part about Guy #3's approach that worked was the confidence – like I said, it didn't make her swoon, but she definitely found him more interesting after that. Keep in mind, this guy is 21, he's learning through trial and error at this point. I don't think he did too badly for himself.
Eh. If you had to choose between having a girl actively disliking you or being indifferent, you stand better of chance of getting with her if she dislikes you. I know from personal experience. In this light, having someone you're already in the friend-zone with say, “Well, I don’t NOT want to kiss him” isn't exactly progress…
I actually like the idea of laying it on the line, in theory. But I just don't think it's feasible in the current environment—there is little incentive and alternatives are much easier to pull off.
I just asked her out like 30 minutes ago. Here's how it went down:
Me: We need to hang out.
Her: Yeah we're always bumping into each other.
Me: I have to go to class now, so can I just get your number and calll you later?
Her: I'm actually seeing somebody so….
Me: Okay then. *fake smile*
You two were absolutely right about girls seeing everything as a sexual invitation. I feel like crud now.
Ah, well intense dislike can be a powerful aphrodisiac, no? For short-term mating, certainly. The key there is the word intense. Passion is easily transferred to the bedroom.
I do agree that alternatives to laying it on the line exist, and can be extremely effective. But most guys don't have them in their toolbox. The way I see it, this guy staking a claim, esp. wrt the future, is not unlike Mystery saying, “Kiss goodbye” while pointing to his cheek. It's a bit sassy, a bit cocky, and we both know that works.
Guy #3 is still in the friend zone. But it's not too late for him to change things up with her, IMO. The other two guys? Totally done.
Ah, well intense dislike can be a powerful aphrodisiac, no? For short-term mating, certainly. The key there is the word intense. Passion is easily transferred to the bedroom.
I do agree that alternatives to laying it on the line exist, and can be extremely effective. But most guys don't have them in their toolbox. The way I see it, this guy staking a claim, esp. wrt the future, is not unlike Mystery saying, “Kiss goodbye” while pointing to his cheek. It's a bit sassy, a bit cocky, and we both know that works.
Guy #3 is still in the friend zone. But it's not too late for him to change things up with her, IMO. The other two guys? Totally done.
SHIT! That sucks! My thoughts:
1. You've got balls! I think it's great you took action. She's in a relshp, which stinks, but that's no reflection on you. And this is way better that your wondering “what if” for the rest of the semester, no? The confidence you displayed in approaching her will serve you well in general.
2. I don't think this sounds like she necessarily thought the invitation was sexual, but she did recognize that you were interested in her. And she was right about that.
3. Susan Walsh's mantra for life: Everything changes. You will be surprised.
You've planted a seed. Who knows what the future will bring. Now she knows that you are attracted to her. You're worse off than if she was available and interested, but you're better off than if you had never acted at all, IMO. Whatever you do, don't start avoiding her now! Keep it friendly.
John, I'm sorry it didn't go as we expected. But please pay special attention to Susan's No. 3
You can bet this girl's flattered now. And you can bet that she'll store you in the back of her head as 'someone interested'.
I'm gonna tell you a little story now:
Once i was approached by a guy in similar circumstances. I had a boyfriend so i declined. Funny thing is that when he asked me out we had pretty much the same conversation you guys had. The difference is that instead of the 'ok. then', he actually said: 'well, i understand, but you know what, i'd still like to get to know you better, as a friend'. And we did hang out, and he ended up becoming a great friend for me. A great, sweet, amazing friend who i fell hopelessly in love with over time. Our friendship remained strictly platonic for over two years, but my boyfriend and I eventually broke up. And later began one of the most meaningful relationships i've ever had. Now, please, don't misunderstand me! I'm not saying that you should pretend to be her friend in order to seduce her, LOL. Just keep in mind, that indeed, everything changes and you, mister, will be surprised.