Recently a 29 year-old guy wrote into the Love Letters section of the Boston Globe looking for guidance. Usually Meredith Goldstein, who writes the column, gives excellent advice. In which case there’s no point in my saying anything further. In this case, however, I think she really missed the boat.
Here’s the letter:
About a year ago, a friend introduced me to his wife’s friend, and we hit it off. I’m 29 now, and she’s 26. We dated, things went extremely well, and things have progressed to the point where we are both extremely happy and have been considering moving in together this summer when our leases end. All in all, a very normal, healthy, mutually respectful relationship that makes us both very happy.
A few weeks ago, however, she dropped a bomb on me. She told me that when she was in college she was pretty casual about relationships. When I asked what that meant, she told me that she had probably been with about 35 guys. I was floored. I had always assumed she had a typical dating past, and that she was a nice girl. She assured me that she had completely changed after college, but I still have no idea how to process this information. I’m pretty sure that if I knew this from the start, I never would have given her a chance. Needless to say, I’m really weirded out.
This is a woman who, until two weeks ago, I could easily have seen myself marrying. She’s been so incredibly great to me, but now I don’t know who I’m dating. I would love to get past this and go back to feeling the way I used to, but I don’t know if that’s possible. I’m also afraid that if I end it over this, it’ll be the biggest regret of my life. She makes me so happy and it’s probably the best relationship of my life, but I’m now seeing her as damaged goods. I try to rationalize why her number isn’t that crazy or out of whack, but then I snap back into it and remember that I don’t know a single woman who did anything remotely like that in college. This is just foreign to me.
CONFLICTED
And Meredith’s answer:
Your words: “I’m pretty sure that if I knew this from the start, I never would have given her a chance.’’
Aren’t you glad you didn’t know? Had you vetoed her based on a number, you wouldn’t be in an amazing, happy relationship.
How many partners would have been OK? Five? Twenty? Thirty-four? What’s your cutoff for damaged goods?
Your girlfriend knows herself well. She had a good time in college, grew up, and now wants a real partner. She chose you, trusted you enough to disclose her past, and now she’s being called damaged goods. Might I suggest that a woman who slept with only three people but didn’t understand her own motives might be more damaged – less capable of an adult relationship?
My point is, if she doesn’t feel damaged, she’s not. Please don’t label her that way. Nothing has changed about her. She’s the same woman you fell for. If anything, you should be flattered. She has experienced a variety of men and you’re the guy she wants to cohabitate with. Her experiences turned her into the woman you chose. For that reason, be thankful that she lived the life she did. Don’t ruin this – for her or yourself.
MEREDITH
What Questions Does Conflicted’s Letter Raise?
1. Why would Conflicted care about his girlfriend’s lovers prior to knowing him?
This man’s concern about the number of sexual partners his future wife may have had is neither surprising nor illogical. David Buss, one of the pioneers of Evo Psych, writes in the Evolution of Desire about why men originally might have chosen to marry at all, considering their innate preference for sexual variety:
With concealed ovulation in humans, men who married would benefit by having greater reassurance of paternity. Before marrying, a man would seek reassurance that his wife would remain sexually faithful. One trait in a mate that could predict her faithfulness was premarital chastity.
As David Buss says, the modern conditions for mating may have changed significantly, but humans still employ the same sexual strategies. Of the 67 traits men seek in a committed partner, faithfulness and sexual loyalty rank as the most important in every culture ever studied.
2. Is Conflicted applying a sexual double standard? If so, is that unethical?
If Conflicted was a total man whore, having spent his youth banging women exactly like the one he is in love with now, I wouldn’t have much sympathy for him. If he was a cad, why should he not wind up with a woman who spent her youth having sex with men just like him? In that case, both would share a similar history and decision to switch to monogamy. However, I don’t believe this is the case here. He states clearly that he doesn’t know “a single woman who did anything remotely like that in college.”
If I had to guess, I’d feel pretty safe assuming that Conflicted was a nice Beta college guy, an earnest student who got lucky a few times, maybe even had a long-term girlfriend in his college days. Meanwhile, the object of his love and affection was either hooking up with frat stars or athletes. This bomb that she’s dropped on him is a reminder of how different their past experiences are, and how she inhabited an entirely different world from him just five years ago.
In her book Sexual Strategies, Mary Batten says:
As long as the risks were low, selection favored the basic male tendency to be aroused sexually by the sight of females.
But a woman could incur an enormous cost of energy and time if easy visual arousal resulted in pregnancy.
Selection has thus favored females who were discriminating and slow to arouse sexually, since reflex-like sexual arousal on the basis of visual stimuli would have tended to undermine female choice.
She notes that females are usually aroused not by the sight of males but by the touch of a favored male. Again, this speaks to sexual selection over many millenia. Buss says none of this is absolute; environment matters:
Every strand of DNA unfolds within a particular environmental and cultural context. All behavioral patterns can in principle be altered by environmental intervention.
The Sexual Revolution, the availability of the Pill, and women’s increased earning power have all been profound environmental interventions. Still, fifty years is a nanosecond in evolutionary terms. While men seek women with promiscuity, sexual experience and high sex drive when selecting for short-term mating, they still retain the preference for a sexually inexperienced wife, or at least one who is less experienced than they are.
In the era of hooking up, this concern is exacerbated as the number of inexperienced woman has dropped dramatically. One of the things I hear most from men like Conflicted is that they have no interest in stepping in to pick up the pieces after women have been “used up” by other men. It’s insulting to their pride for obvious reasons, and many will refuse to marry if they cannot find a woman who meets their requirements.
What Questions Does Meredith’s Answer Raise?
1. Is ignorance bliss in the matter of sexual history?
What you know can’t hurt you, until it does. The movie Best in Show comes to mind, where Eugene Levy and Catherine O’Hara play a married couple not unlike Conflicted and his girl in terms of sexual history. Everywhere they go, they seem to run into her old boyfriends, who want to relive their sexual adventures, reminiscing about sex “that time on the roller coaster” and asking her whether she “can still do that thing with her legs.” Of course Eugene Levy plays the pitiful chump who squirms with discomfort but sucks it up for his Alpha female, and we all laugh wholeheartedly. As far as I can tell, Conflicted doesn’t want to go through life risking those kind of doubts.
2. Is Conflicted required to state a cutoff for damaged goods?
Conflicted has every right to seek a partner whose values mirror his own. That’s what this is really about – he is questioning her values based on her past decisions. He states that “I don’t know who I’m dating.” Everything he thought he knew about her has been called into question. He doesn’t know if he can love this person he has just discovered.
3. Is a woman who sleeps with a few people without knowing her own motives less capable of a real relationship than a woman who sleeps with 35 while knowing exactly what she wants from each encounter?
Frankly, this strikes me as pure nonsense, straight from the sex-positive branch of feminism. A woman who understands her own motives is probably going to be more successful in relationships than a woman who doesn’t. However, we have no evidence whatsoever that Conflicted’s girlfriend understood her motives for hooking up during college. With an average of 9 sexual partners per year, I can only assume that she threw all reason and caution to the winds. This hardly sounds like the carefully considered behavior of a woman who knows her own mind. Since women orgasm during hookup sex less than half the time, she would have been better off with a man who knew her body and was sober during sex. She gained a short-term reward for hooking up randomly, presumably in the form of sexual validation from attractive men.
4. Should Conflicted feel flattered that she waited for him before deciding to live with someone? If her experiences turned her into the woman she is today, does it follow that if Conflicted loves her, he must love her experiences?
Doubt it, but nice try. If I were Conflicted I too would be weirded out, primarily by the fear that she was “settling” for me after spending her youth and beauty with douchebags.
This question of whether the nice guy can get past the startling revelation of his love’s promiscuous past is nothing new. Sweet Charity, the Neil Simon musical based on Fellini’s Night of Cabiria, is the story of a prostitute who falls for a shy tax accountant she meets on an elevator. When she finally tells him what she does for a living, he says he doesn’t care and wants to marry her anyway. But when the time comes for the wedding, he tells her that he cannot stop thinking about the “other men,” and he leaves her.
A more recent and hopeful ending to a similar story is Julia Robert’s rescue by Richard Gere in Pretty Woman, probably the most unrealistic chick flick ever made.
Men like Conflicted are the norm. They heed the call of nature and instinct. To be honest, I’m not sure why his girlfriend shared that information with him, “dropping a bomb” in that way. It strikes me as odd that they got that far without discussing their sexual histories, from the standpoint of both physical and emotional well-being, and they’re both responsible for that failure.
{ 327 comments… read them below or add one }
« 1 2 3 »
First time comment. I find things to agree with in most people’s posts in this interesting thread.
I’m a recent college graduate in Ireland and by the sounds of it, relationships are a bit more popular here than in the US. The pattern of girls being more sexually active than most men is true. Not sure if it’s as extreme as the 80:20 ratio you suggest. Remember also that a lot of girls in college are going out with men who are older, not just with 20% of the guys in college.
I also question the use of Greek letters to describe people, and I dislike its negative connotations – that alphas are ‘at the top’. In my experience the men in college who got a disproportionately large amount of sex don’t have enough characteristics in common to designate them all as ‘alphas’. It’s unrealistic.
I also notice that on your blog, evolutionary psychology seems to reign supreme as a grand theory of everything in sexual behaviour. You should remember that despite the large amount of press EP gets, it remains quite a contested science.
I agree that in most of human history, when condoms didn’t exist, a partner (of either sex) with a promiscuous past presented a major STI risk, and this legacy continues today. But I think that centuries of fetishising virginity in our culture (which is related to property inheritance) has an equally strong effect.
To the subject at hand, I think that Conflicted would be making a big mistake to break up with a good girlfriend over this. I know myself the resentment that comes from emerging from the tortured existence that is the desert of sexual and romantic gratification, to go out with a girl whose life in retrospect looks like it was a sexual playground. But you get over it after a few months and put things in perspective.
It might be worth expanding upon that last line a bit. The reason I believe for this widespread difference in sexual experience between men and women of equal age in their mid-20s (as myself and my girlfriend both are) is natural.
Men find women in their early 20s more attractive than women at any other age. After that, their attractiveness fades somewhat. Women seem to find men in their late 20s/early 30s more attractive than any other men. So the time for women to have a lot of sex is in their early 20s and the time for men to do the same is in their late 20s.
Meredith Goldstein’s dismissive response to ‘Conflicted’ was a disgrace, just thought I would say that. Dilithium’s post was very evocative also. Steveo, your anger is justified. I never would want to be silent when virgins are attacked, and I have at times, in real life, corrected young women when they say things that show they have no idea what young men go through!
Jasmine et al might want to read my post on men’s ladders (shameless plug):
.
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ladder-theory-for-men/
.
It discusses why men will date slutty women but are far less likely to “commit” long-term to them. Men really do see women they’d date and women they’ll have sex with and nothing more as two totally different species.
.
In any case, this guy’s girlfriend is clearly into straight-up recreational sex. he’s right to be concerned. The argument “it made her the woman he loves” is a red herring. She’s a major risk for not just infidelity but a host of other commitment and thrill-seeking issues.
.
As for Chasing Amy, recall that Holden’s response to Alyssa’s past was to suggest they have a threesome with his best friend which nuked all of his relationships including his business.
“I have at times, in real life, corrected young women when they say things that show they have no idea what young men go through!”
.
Sadly I have found many young women to be completely uninterested in empathizing with young men. When the subject “look at it from a man’s point of view” is breached, their solipsism shields go up to 11. They’ve been indoctrinated into the “don’t take any shit from a man” philosophy and thinking from a man’s perspective is anathema. Not to mention they refuse to understand the apex fallacy and other cognitive biases that color their lenses. Witness Haley’s most recent post that created so much brouhaha.
.
I don’t have any science on this but I don’t need it, I consider lack of empathy to be a major risk factor for a relationship and displaying it usually dumps a woman down to Ladder 2 or often to Ladder 3. Why even try to have sex with a woman who doesn’t see you as human?
.
Now this woman I just met who is running in a prostate cancer fundraiser, that’s another story…
Is that Liv Tyler btw?
Chasing Amy was a funny film. Holden was so stupid for suggesting that threesome! I think that some young women are more empathetic than others; it’s not a lost cause. They just don’t see the difficulties of rejection and the phenomenon of involuntary celibacy as obviously as we do.
Yes we do. We get rejected all the time when the guy we like doesn’t call us, and are therefore involuntarily celibate because we don’t wanna bang n’importe qui, we need mutual respect, attraction, and emotional connection. Not so easy to find.
Hi Jasmine, while I don’t subscribe to the ridiculous idea that all the girls in college are riding the “alpha cock carousel”, in my experience the sheer length of the dry spells and serial rejection suffered by the male students goes well beyond what most girls live with. Yes, I know this is natural and age related but that doesn’t make it easier to live with.
I don’t want to claim that you have no idea of what it is like to feel like there is a consensus among all women that you are unattractive. Nor does it sound like you are unaware of how difficult it is to make approaches to people who attract you.
But a lot of girls don’t have your insights.
Let’s be clear here, rejecting guys who try to pick you up is voluntary celibacy.
Voluntary celibacy = being celibate with someone whom you would actually very much like to fuck, given that you have already established
1. mutual commitment
2. respect
3. attraction
(in no particular order)
As a “beta male” (well I’m an Alpha male except I’m not too interested by sex), here are my issues with her number.
1. She has a high sex drive and derives a lot of pleasure from it. Well, unfortunately, I don’t. Therefore, I’m not interested in marrying someone who might have bedroom issues with me.
2. She’s not interested in a relationship during college. Even if she had a high sex drive, her number shouldn’t have been that high unless she had very few (and short) relationships. My question would be why now and why me? Is she just using me now that she wants a baby? Given her past, it’s up to her to prove that she’s changed. That might be unfair as she might have actually changed but it’s just prudent risk management for me.
3. She hasn’t had much relationship experience. She might be sexually experienced but has she dealt with arguments between couples? Has she tried to even out the rough spots in the past? Perhaps her college behaviour was part of a strategy to avoid emotional attachment. Again, this raises red flags.
4. Jealousy. How come those men get to have sex with her casually while I get the same amount of sex as her boyfriend? This is not rational thinking but it’s not something that’s easy for me to get over. You know, this is just my preference. It’s not different than women who can’t date guys below say 6″.
A lot of my points are conjectures but sometimes you need to infer the truth from small clues.
Hi, I don’t understand why no one is bringing up another point about promiscuity. Women are allowed to claim sexual pleasure just as men. Or we should be allowed without all those ‘damaged goods’ issues you mentioned.
The purpose of the clitoris is nothing but sensation. It actually outrages me the more I grow up (22 years now) that it’s not okay to be sexual, just be sexy. Hence so many women are not intune with their sexuality because it is a bit shameful. Unless he’s husband material what the hell!? I don’t care for that I just want to explore my sexual appetite and it’s outrageous people still think ‘women aren’t allowed’ to!!
Ruby,
You have every right to explore your sexuality in any way you’d like. And guys have every right to want to avoid a serious relationship with a girl like you. Do what you like, but don’t demand that we approve.
I just want to explore my sexual appetite
.
Is that another way of to say fucking? Does this exploration involve men? If so, do these men, who are part of this group you claim dont approve of your behavior, get to use your body for their own selfish sexual satisfaction. That is, do they get to use you like an interactive sex toy?
.
it’s outrageous people still think ‘women aren’t allowed’ to!!
.
Is anything anyone thinks about you or other women actually affecting any of you? If so, say how that is being done because so far nobody has proven any such thing. Who exactly are these “people” who think this way? How do you know how people think? They must be verbalizing their thoughts. What are they saying? What do you mean by “still think?” Are you referring to men? If so, they still think exactly as they have always thought and will continue to do so. Did you expect or were told or convinced by others that men have changed or can be changed? Why are you concerned about what others think anyway? Do you care about what the non-husband man is thinking when he sticks his penis in you? Why would he been under the impression that you have any thoughts going on as that manner of thinking could *gasp* lead to a respectful relationship.
.
Propagandacide spray in full throttle.
@Ruby
This is not a judgement or something to be outraged about. Let me spell it out four you.
You have two options
1) Follow your vagina to wherever it takes you.
The pros:
Lots of sex with as many men as you feel attracted to for as long as you are attractive aka young.
The cons:
Shrinking the potential pool of men that you can select from LTR to only the man that outnumber you sexually. Given that most women are attracted to something like 20% of men that means that you will have a lot of competition to get commitment from the same men that give you sex freely thus when you feel the need for an exclusive monogamous relationship you will have to be incredibly lucky to get it from the same pool of men that will have a longer shelf life and have more women attracted to them as the time and the women pass by.
Thus you can whether remain alone only seeking sex or you can step down to look for men that you has less experience than you.
This strategy usually fails because the men that didn’t had all the sex you did are more often than not unwilling to pair up with women that were attracted to men unlike them for the longest time when they have the power and men have a choice in dating market too many of them choose to retire altogether.
Even if you can always choose to lie and tell them that you were a monogamous chances are that you are already used to a type of lover that would not be the one that you can have later and this will create discord in your relationship.
2) Exercise prudence and pick to have sex with men only in committed relationships.
Cons: Less sex with different men.
Pros: A bigger pool of men to select from (and to be selected by them), with similar sex history, when you want a LTR more chances of an adequate satisfaction because you already are used to sex with the same type of men.
Your body, your choice, your consequences. Is this a bit clearer?
Your body, your choice, your consequences.
.
The choices women have are very mutually exclusive. As always, they are boxed in by men’s interpretation of them. That about sums it up.
Wow, a over whole year later! Susan, I can’t believe you are still responding! Kudos to you!
I empathize with Conflict’s plight. Here is a woman who he thought was just absolutely perfect for him, marriage material, but what I believe he is struggling with is two-fold.
1) His Ego
2) Long-term risks
As others have mentioned, his ego is most likely bruised by the fact that:
A) If he was a beta male, her ilk most likely rejected his kind during the college years and there is a strong feeling of resentment to that category of women.
B) She is more sexually experienced than he is as a result of her conquests and he may fear he might not provide the sexual prowess she is used to which can potentially cause friction in the relationship.
C) That he is just another number in the “fun” line
The long-term risks are:
A) Due to her sexual history, she has demonstrated that she has a preference for variety and if he commits to her, her fidelity is brought into question.
B) If they choose to have kids, how can he sure that his off-spring is actually ‘his’?
C) Early warnings of possible self-esteem/mental health/poor decision-making issues.
I realize some of the long-term points can be argued as a double-standard as men also crave sexual variety. However, when talking about a LTR where a family is possibly involved, no man will voluntarily commit his energies and financial resources to help raise other men’s children. Only women will truly know who the father of the child is (short of a paternity test) and for men, it’s a very big risk getting serious with the type of woman with such a loose past. Why take on such a risk if you have other options? Like someone else mentioned, quality men have better standards and won’t settle for anything less.
I was a total cad that took great advantage of the hook up culture after I was heartbroken, and after getting over being “the good guy” during college. Anyhow,. my point is that I understand the double standard that guys apply to ourselves, and have what will probably be a booed upon comment. i know some of my girlfriend’s exes and it makes me want to hurl, but that wasn’t a showstopper. She’s made mistakes; so have I. However, if she had a number that anyway approached mine, it would be a deal-breaker. And here’s why:
Like it or not, each man a woman sleeps with hook up culture or no represents someone she was emotionally close to. The women I slept with were conquests, but no matter how much they wanted to view it as I did, I always had to present someone they liked and could see a future with (which I am now, but as a broken emotional shell timing was terrible then). That is why the number thing bothers guys, even former scumbags.
@Sydney
Thanks for that insight – it’s the emotional closeness. I’ve clipped and saved this.
Nice post, and some great discussion here. But I noticed that a bunch of the comments focus on (and rebut) various justifications for why guys might prefer girls who haven’t slept around much, or reject ones who’ve slept around a lot.
While there are some good points to be made there, the more useful insight is that this is probably hard-wired into the way men think. The fact that it’s such a universal trait, across all cultures, strongly suggests that it’s simply in our nature to want women (for committed relationships) who are “inexperienced” in that sense – hence the high value usually placed on female virginity.
It’s a subtle difference, but has important consequences. Trying to justify 35 partners as being her choice, or “not slutty”, or whatever is all fine and dandy, but even a man who recognizes that still won’t be able to change his natural reaction. So the article’s point is well taken I think, regardless of the mindset of the man you’re trying to attract, if what you’re looking for is a LTR.
Personally, I’m a man who has no problem at all with women engaging in hook-ups or serial relationships — indeed most of my female friends have had many — but I wouldn’t ever consider a woman “marriage material” if she’s been with more than a handful of guys. And virginity is a huge plus.
Along the lines of what @Badger wrote re: ladders, I have no such expectations for a girl I’m simply sleeping with. If we’re in a short-term relationship or whatever, I can hear about her sexual history without getting jealous, and a large number of partners is no problem (indeed, the experience might do some good). But if we started getting serious about a LTR, the large number of partners would become a stumbling block. Consciously nothing’s changed, but the way I FEEL defnitely has – I’m now thinking about our relationship in a way that potentially has me giving up my sexual freedom and devoting myself fully to this one woman, and I’m genetically hard-wired to resent doing that with someone who hasn’t been chaste. Rationally I might know that she’s changed now, or that sleeping with 35 guys while single doesn’t mean she’ll ever cheat on me now, or that she’s an individual who is free to explore what she desires, or any number of other logical things. But viscerally, at a raw emotional level that’s been shaped by natural selection, I’d feel like she’s damaged goods, and not worth the price of a long-term commitment.
So while a lot of the sentiments expressed here attempting to “debunk” Susan’s post are perfectly valid, they miss the point – regardless of whether it’s justified or not in some idealized framework, in the real world increasing your number of sex partnersWILL decrease your value, even to men like myself who are progressive and have no ethical/social objections to a woman who gets around. I wish it weren’t the case (believe me, it’d make things much easier on me!) but it’s just biology.
@Matt
Thanks for your comment. I have a question – do you ever find yourself catching feelings for a woman you’re just having sex with? Or does the short-term nature of the arrangement prevent that? Obviously, we know that many women are very susceptible to falling for a sexual partner, regardless of original intent.
Hi Susan,
Having it stated very clearly (and in detail) early on that the relationship is just “casual” or short-term definitely helps, since it serves as a reality check for both partners if/when their mind starts to explore possibilities and consider what might happen in the future. But yes, for me personally, I still have a tendency to sometimes get emotionally attached. Never too strongly (i.e. falling for someone unexpectedly), but it does happen. It tends to happen much more often with women though, as you said.
That’s unfortunately when I start to care more about things like a woman’s sexual history. I guess subconsciously I end up spending more time thinking about her, and my primate brain starts to do that “is the energy I’m spending on this potential mate a worthwhile risk to take?” calculation, and it throws up a big red flag in the form of jealousy or disgust. I probably shouldn’t generalize this to all guys without more data, but what few times I’ve talked about it with other men, they seem to feel the same way. A previous generation might’ve said “she’s a very kinky girl, the kind you don’t take home to Mother”.
And that’s a damn shame, because I’ve met a few women who might’ve otherwise been good long-term partners. But my brain is what it is, so for now I’ve yet to meet one that I feel like I could really commit to without feeling cheated.
This is a great site, by the way. Stumbled across it yesterday and thought “oh my god, here’s a post all about men, BY a woman, that’s actually accurate!” Haha
@Matt
Grab the feed or email subscription if you’d like. The comment threads here get really intense and interesting. Lots of input from both sexes, and many men who have expressed what you did. There’s also a Forum. Anyway, I hope you stop by again!
@Matt
Without casting aspersions, I had a question that you might be able to provide some input on. I’ve known a few guys who have these kinds of STRs with women. It’s clear that women by and large make themselves unsuitable for relationships by doing what you describe. So, what can a man do sexually to make himself unworthy of a relationship? Actual cheating? Sex with another man?
I’m more curious than anything, because I’ve never gotten any answers to this question when I’ve posed it to other guys. It’s kind of been, “guys can do whatever before settling down”. The assumption being, there will always be a “good” woman somewhere down the road to marry. In the interests of full disclosure, I’ve never had a STR, so I don’t have the same perspective you do. Thanks!
@Megaman Hmm, so basically wondering what the mirror-image of this article is that would apply to men? That’s a good question, and I guess some of the women here would need to answer it!
My (totally uninformed) guess is that a man would most reliably remove himself from the pool of LTR candidates if he has a history of taking actions (or making choices) that demonstrate that he’s uncaring, unreliable/unstable, selfish, cowardly, lazy… Basically if his past conveys the image of a man lacking the qualities that traditionally made for a good and reliable mate.
Examples: a man who ran out on his wife/girlfriend and kids from a previous relationship, or who got badly into debt due to a gambling problem, or who keeps getting fired from jobs because he regularly misses work, or who treats his female family members without respect, etc. All those seem like decent predictors of a man’s character, as it relates to a mate. Obviously people can change, but I wouldn’t be surprised if many women simply weren’t willing to invest the time & energy into a man with that kind of history.
I’d love to hear from a woman and be corrected if I’m totally off-base there, though.
Oh whoops, sorry I missed the “sexually” part of your comment, which totally casts it in a different light… I have no idea there, I’d love to know though!
I do know women who won’t date a guy if he’s a player, but it seems to be more focused on his recent history and less on the distant past. My impression is that women overall (just statistically) are less concerned with a man’s sexual history, and more concerned with his character, future prospects, etc. Surely hooking up with a different woman each night isn’t good for your LTR potential, though.
Some males will disagree with me on this, but this is why I think it’s best not to go into detail about sexual histories. The last thing your man wants to picture in his head is how all of these guys worked up a sweat with you. There were a few men in another thread that said it’s best for women to be honest about their sexual ast, but I think they’re projecting their own fears of their partners possibly lying to them. I don’t blame them, because I understand that man biologically wants to think of his woman as his and not enjoyed by others. The fact is is that discussing your number will not help the relationship move forward. If your man is the most important thing in the world right now, I don’t see the point in digging up what doesn’t matter to you anymore.
For those who say “What if he finds out? Relationships have ended on HUS for this reason”. Yes, there’s a risk of him finding out, but I know many marriages where the woman pretended to be a virgin and the husband doesn’t know she lied until this day.
“B) If they choose to have kids, how can he sure that his off-spring is actually ‘his’?”
Many formerly promiscuous people stay faithful in their marriage, but I can see why the man would want to be protecting himself from any risk. Nonetheless, a person with a modest sexual past can still cheat.
@Matt
I honestly wasn’t trying to stump anybody. But I’ve often asked this question in casual conversation and have never gotten a solid answer (from guys, that is). Maybe women separate sexual behavior from the character issue, I don’t know. I would think how a man treats other women (love vs. lay) would say something about his character. There’s probably a spectrum of female preferences out there. I remember hearing about a study that discussed what women want in a marriage partner. In addition to the usual loving, affectionate, faithful, masculine qualities, it also mentioned fewer (vs. greater) number of prior partners. Who knows? One thing seems clear: women aren’t allowed to make nearly as many so-called mistakes as men.
“One thing seems clear: women aren’t allowed to make nearly as many so-called mistakes as men.”
Yep. It’s clear biology – the woman’s body is more valuable because it carries the child; a man’s body just creates sperm, and in any event another man can be called upon to provide for and be father to the child should the original dude disappear. A “mistake” by a woman has a much bigger impact.
Successful societies have generally protected women ahead of men ultimately for this reason, with a mixture of pedestalization and chauvinism. If women desire this chivalric protection, they have to pay the price for it, which includes the sexual “double standard” (which is not a double standard because men and women are different).
I’ve re-read this post a few times, and I’m still struck – 35 partners at age 26? That’s way beyond the reach of even continuous serial monogamy, that’s either some kind of sexual compulsive disorder, or straight-up recreational sex.
Once a young woman (<26 yrs) goes above about 10 partners, she's veered square into slut territory, there's just no way she's had reasonable bounds on her sexuality that a monogamously-oriented guy would be inclined to respect.
I’ve always been a fan of a minimum standard of behavior that would apply to most men and women. A reasonable expectation of responsibity for all parties involved. Maybe too optimistic for the post-modern dating scene. Acknowledging sex differences is fine. I don’t think many women want to go back to the days where they had to turn a blind eye to infidelity. But I also don’t think men want to go back to the days where that had to be the sole breadwinner. I couldn’t imagine having that kind of financial pressure so squarely on my shoulders.
@Matt
That’s a good description of what makes a man unworthy of a relationship. Now if only women would stop getting with men like that! Some women can’t resist, even prefer the bad boy.
For me, cheating is a huge red flag. Any relationship that starts with cheating is on a very rocky foundation. Also, sex with another man? OMG, that would be an immediate dealbreaker for me. Anyone looking for a monogamous LTR or marriage is probably best off avoiding bisexuals. You can’t compete on a level playing field.
To all the girls recommending lying about your number, I’d think twice about that. You’d be surprised at all the various ways he has of finding out, and not necessarily by actively looking either. If you lie and he finds out, you are done. Telling the truth is a risk but it’s less risky. And basing the whole relationship on a lie is risky in and of itself.
Sorry to be harsh, but just about the worst thing a guy can imagine for himself is to be stuck with/married to a liar AND a slut. You’re really cheating him badly if you do that and it will likely end badly for you (and him).
Unlike the truly hard-care MRAs at Dalrock’s and elsewhere, I do not reject out of hand the possiblity of redemption and genuine change. But if you lie about it, you really haven’t changed. You are compounding the problem. So, telling the truth will certainly limit your options but guess what. You already limited your options by sleeping around. “Woman up” and live with the consequences.
Or better yet, to those of you would still have this option, don’t sleep around in the first place.
I wonder how many guys lie about their number? Not in the sense of inflating it to impress others, but lowering it to make himself seem more “suitable” for a LTR or marriage. Particularly if he’s looking to settle down with a woman with a low partner count and hopes to have kids. I’ve heard of this happening at least once, though I don’t know if the woman ever discovered the truth.
I think most reasonable people will appreciate a change of behavior and priorities. Sort of like a redemptive tabula rasa. Provided the past behavior wasn’t too unreasonable, I guess : )
Well, how often do women ask the men? Way less often than the other way, for the simple reason that women care much less. And to the extent that they do care, they are as likely as not to be impressed (DHV, in game terms).
I’ve come across many threads/posts in this sphere from guys saying “My GF was a slut and I can’t get over it!!!” but I’ve yet to see even one from a girl saying “My BF was a PUA and I can’t get over it!!!!”
Double standard, based on innate differences. Feminism does its best to tamp it down, but fails.
My guess is that a girl might not have a problem being in a relationship with a “reformed” bad boy. It’s when she gets dumped or cheated on that she posts on a thread wondering what went wrong : )
Just taking the double standard argument to it’s logical conclusion: Would a woman really not care if the man she was dating had already slept with all of her female friends? There’s got to be some level of sleeping around on the man’s part that turns off a big chunk of marriage-minded women.
I think if it’s her friends, that changes the equation. As to this, “There’s got to be some level of sleeping around on the man’s part that turns off a big chunk of marriage-minded women.”
Well, let’s ask them. Ladies?
Well, this is a story I’ve relayed at HUS before, but it actually happened to me.
A few summers ago, I went out with a guy named Will*, who I had met in one of my econ classes. We went on two dates before he completely disappeared on me. I got over it in a week and the next semester, I studied abroad in London.
While in London, I noticed unusual Facebook activity with Will and another one of my Indian girlfriends. Around that same time, Will started randomly messaging me to see what I was up to. I had no idea why he was choosing to get back in touch with me, and I told my friend Kate about the shenanigans. She advised me to ignore it all, that a guy she knew was doing the same thing. In fact, there was a guy she had slept with over the summer who had done to her what he had done to me. In fact, she had slept with this guy about a week after Will stopped texting me. In fact, this guy was Will. (We both screamed when we realized this, lol.)
We got back to NYC and I ran into my Indian girlfriend. I asked her what was up with her and Will, and she said they were in a dating relationship of sorts. Unfortunately, I had just heard that Will had booty-called Kate when we got back and I immediately told my girlfriend everything I knew, advising her that Will was absolutely NOT dating material.
Next thing I knew, her Facebook status had changed to “in a relationship”. With Will.
They dated for about 6 months before he broke up with her because she was a virgin and wouldn’t have sex with him (she was uncomfortable with the number of partners he’d had).
About a month ago, Will found out that I was still in the market and wanted to date me again. I declined. He is absolutely not relationship material and I don’t know any relationship-minded girls who would be comfortable dating him.
*Will is a tool.
Escoffier & Megaman,
Following are dealbreakers:
- Past infidelity.
- More than a dozen partners. I doubt my number is ever going to go over 3 (that’s me being a proper slag) so three x four. Four times the leeway I’ve given myself is a fair deal and even then, I’m still uncomfortable because it’s essentially against my value system. If I had a magic wand, that number would easily be half that but that’s unrealistic nowadays, even for betas.
- Use of a sex worker. Once, twice, 100 times … it doesn’t make a difference. It’s still nasty.
(And, no, I’m not applying the apex fallacy to betas. We’re officially the most promiscuous country in the West w.r.t to casual sex and the average man has something like 9+ partners in his lifetime. Most people I know are already in or approaching double digits despite having been sexually active for like, 4 years. )
@Isabel
Are you in the U.K.? Because I read that Australia or New Zealand was worse. You have a very interesting outlook. I’m guessing an exotic STD would also disqualify someone : )
In the U.S., something like 60% of guys have had 6 or fewer partners in their lifetime (CDC, Census). They don’t really have an incentive to lie on the really big surveys, but take it FWIW.
@SayWhaat
Oh boy, that is quite a story. I don’t think I knew that Will was sniffing around again. I can’t believe you and Kate were nearly Eskimo twins! Your gf was stupid to date Will, but so, so smart to not have sex with him. It’s pretty remarkable that he hung around for six months, actually. Probably getting some on the side.
Megaman,
Haha, yeah. We have the highest rates of teen promiscuity/pregnancy, obesity and sex partners in the West. At least we still win at things. =D
Do you know the numbers for American women, out of interest? Damn it, I need to renew my passport.
For women, it’s around 75%. Assuming people are telling the truth on their Census forms, which is about as impersonal as you can get, the idea that everybody’s constantly sleeping seems exaggerated. But if somebody’s honest about having 30+ partners in his or her early 20s, that would be a huge red flag to me. The real outliers are either virgins (typically young) or those with 10+ partners. Most everybody else is in-between.
Megaman: Oh, I see. I wonder whether (some) guys overexaggerate hook-up culture just for effect, given that almost half of college aged women are virgins, and the ones who aren’t are somewhere in the under 6 region. The Samantha and EatBetrayLove types don’t actually seem to be that common. Princesses and female users are still plentiful, though.
There’s probably a lot of obfuscation on the ground, face to face, on both sides. The anecdotes on HUS are proof of that. I think on average, men and women probably have very similar histories and numbers (mid-single digits).
For all the talk of men vs. women, I think deep down each gender is it’s own worst enemy. Women judge men based on their worst behavior, and vice versa. Instead of trying to find like-minded mates, people seem to go into each dating situation assuming the worst, maybe because they’ve already experienced it. Being single doesn’t sound very appealing these days. You won’t find fresh water in a poisoned well.
@Escoffier
I heartily second this. I can totally understand the suggestion of just not bringing it up. But most guys who care about a girl’s number (i.e. most guys) are going to want to know this at some point, and they’ll probably ask directly. At that point you’ve got to either tell them the truth anyway, or dodge the question (which they’ll assume means the number is really high), or straight-out lie.
Lying about it might sometimes work out, but it’s just plain evil. A woman might feel that she’s being judged unfairly, and her past shouldn’t matter, and she might even be right. But it’s clearly something that’s very important to her man, or he wouldn’t have asked. Regardless of how the woman feels about it, she should respect that enough to not lie to his face about something which is (to him) an important issue.
@warmwoman: Flip it around, and imagine that you really, really wanted to have kids of your own one day. You meet a guy and get along great, and start moving toward a commitment to something long-term. One day you bring up kids, and he says that yes, he really wants kids too, and would love to start a family with you one day! How great would it be to have a little mini-you running around, after all? You end up getting married. Only years later do you find out that he’s permanently infertile. He always knew this, but just lied about it because he figured it might be a dealbreaker; in his mind, you could always adopt, so it “shouldn’t really matter” whether he can have kids himself or not, and you would have just judged him unfairly.
I’m guessing many women would feel like this guy is a douchebag. Regardless of whether he feels like having kids should be important or not, it was clearly important to you. He should have respected that, and told you the truth. It’s not his place to decide what values you should and shouldn’t have, even if he disagreeswith them.
@Matt
Perhaps the better analogy is where the guy already has kids with 2 or 3 other women, and never mentioned it : (
I actually knew a couple in which this played out. The women he had had kids with were in other states, but his new young(er) wife eventually found out about it. The marriage ended badly. Enough said.
As I read through this entire article and the comments, I never expected a live discussion to still be ongoing. But I am glad it is!
I am 35 years old. I am with a woman who is 26. She is at least an 8.5+. Gorgeous. Tall. Very smart. Excellent education. Family oriented. Wants babies and marriage and wants to be focused on motherhood. She cooks. Our sex is amazing. Good family.
Thing is? at 24 (when I met her) she had had 30 sexual partners. And she started at 18 as a freshman in college.
She has been completely faithful to me in 15 months. There have been absolutely no signs of infidelity, no reason for me to distrust her, no events of her even doing anything questionable. By all measures, she has been a perfect, adoring, doting, faithful and loyal girlfriend who wants me to marry her and give her children.
But alas, I can not get over the high number of partners. She is high quality, therefore I assume she was sleeping with high quality men, no need to slum. Nevertheless it still bothers me.
I myself have had 60+ partners.
I also have been married, divorced and have two children.
I love her, and I love the idea of more children. I wanted the family life to work out.
But when I consider the possibility of future marriage, I see it very rightly as a risk/reward analysis and her number of partners seems very high risk to me.
I’m scouring the web looking for guidance. I’ve been a devoted Roissy reader for two years. I know Game. I know Dalrock’s positions, and most of the other prominent folks out there.
But I just can’t square this in my mind.
30 partners at age 24 says RED FLAG – right?
Or does it?
“30 partners at age 24 says RED FLAG – right?”
I would put it more like “50′x80′ SCARLETT BANNER WAVING FROM THE TOP OF THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING.”
Like I said above, redemption, regret and change are possible and only the individual case mattters. However, you are playing against very bad odds here. The chance that she is way out on that right tail of those who have truly converted and will not be shaped by her past is not high. That’s something you have to assess for yourself.
I have to say, as a pro-marriage person generally, the jaded side of me has to ask: why would someone already divorced with kids want to do that again?
@dunnoindc
This topic has come up again and again here on the blog. One thing that’s pretty clear is that what upsets men the most is when the woman has more experience than they do. The guy who wrote this letter was in that boat. On the other hand, I’ve known promiscuous men consider 20 partners rounding error. Since you’ve racked up a high body count yourself, and her number is half yours, I think she definitely deserves some slack. She would probably be a terrible match for a less experienced man.
I’m not sure what you mean by high quality men. If you mean hot guys who could get lots of other women, they’re probably more likely to be diseased than anyone else. Are players high quality? A lot of women go for sociopaths, many of whom would appear as high quality at first glance.
I am aware of the research saying that a lot of bond and break, bond and break destroys one’s capacity for relationships and I know the divorce rate climbs with the number of sexual partners. However, according to that study, my chances of a happy marriage (with 10 partners) were only 29%, yet I’ve been happily married for 27 years. That said, I worry quite a bit about the young women I know personally who have had 30 partners. None of them has had a healthy relationship history, including both family, friend and romantic relationships. I hope they will fall in love at some point and stop having sex with randoms (you can’t get to that number without randoms in the mix).
There’s no right answer to the question. Most in the manosphere would call that a dealbreaker, but it’s a very personal decision. In the end, you have to listen to your gut, because that feeling, whatever it is, isn’t going to go away.
@SW
I guess the advice to young people is, “Consider what I say, not what I did”? This is a very parental message. The immature will look at it as hypocritical, but it’s pretty solid guidance for the uninformed.
dunnoindc,
If you can live with it, & you like her as much as you seem to, I say go for it, give the girl a chance.
@Megaman
Maybe not. Maybe the study is wrong. Most of the women I was close to in my 20s until now had partner counts in the double digits. A few married their first sweetheart, or divorced and then remarried after a few years so they never racked up the numbers. Among my sexually experienced friends, only one out of about 20 is divorced. Of the women with little experience, 3 of about 5 are divorced. That study has been trotted out to make this argument many times, but I’d like to see more data on this. I mean, what if the virgins who aren’t getting divorced are all subjects from a polygamous compound in Utah?
Well, I don’t know which study is being referred to. I’ve always looked at CDC/Census for data on this stuff. It’s hard to draw conclusions about cause and effect:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf
Most men and women in these age cohorts report 6 or fewer partners in their lifetimes. Those with the lowest reported divorces appear to be in the 1-2 partner category. Once you get to 3-6 partners, divorce incidence appears to go up to 25-30%. And it goes up from there.
Secular society is already telling guys they can sleep with however many women they want and still get happily married and have kids. I think that’s actually pretty bogus. I’m just ambivalent about women being told they can sleep with 10-20 guys and still live happily ever after. I wouldn’t give my daughter advice like that.
The one area where the divorce rate is extremely low (15%) is for first marriages between two college graduates, typically between the ages of 23 and 26. Contrary to popular belief, college students report fewer partners than non-college contemporaries. At least some young people know what they’re doing these days.
@Megaman
Yes, I view this as critical information for my blog, because my readership is almost entirely in that demographic. It really makes no sense to throw around divorce rates of 50% (often cited even though the national rate is 40%).
I already mentioned that being a player/cheating/abuse of any kind was a HUGE deal breaker for me. Hubby never had a ONS all the women he had been had been his girlfriends I might be too old fashioned but even one night stand was a red flag for me. I also recognize that I’ m probaly an outlier if anything we had learned here is truth is that as a general rule a woman feels a strong tingle for a man no matter what he goes to the relationship pile and sometimes the darker he was the most likely he will get women chasing him.
I believe the national divorce rate was 50% back in 1980 (thanks, baby boomers). It’s been on a downward slide since then, but cohabitation is up, so who knows how many quality relationships there really are?
I know you’re a big proponent of incentives in the SMP. I’m in general agreement on that, though I don’t discount ethical and psychological considerations. I don’t normally play devil’s advocate, but if there really are no non-medical consequences to sleeping around, why lament the current hookup scene? Just accept it as a normal part of the post-modern mating process.
My idea of a quality relationship (be it a STR, LTR, or marriage) is when you love, appreciate, and care for your partner. Attraction brought you together, but it isn’t the glue keeping you from separating. The focus isn’t on your next orgasm, though that’s a nice fringe benefit. My experience has been that people who view relationships this way tend to have a low partner count (sometimes just 1).
@Ms. Anacaona
Interesting take. I don’t think you’re an outlier, just conservative. Maybe not pragmatic, but things have worked out fine for you. Being able to attract women seems like everything for some guys. It’s really about what you do with the attraction and with whom that matters in the long run. There are very few 50+ year old players.
Matt and Escoffier,
I would “woman up” and deal with the situation, if my husband turned out to be infertile.
I think it would be great to adopt! I have thought about it for a long time. If I was madly in love with my husband and he had other positive qualities, I would let the issue slide. I would also understand if he was scared that I wouldn’t like him.
Escoffier-You talk about being a liar and a slut. Women who lie about their past aren’t necessarily sluts. The woman in my culture who pretend to be virgins to their husbands have only had sex with 1-3 people. 1-3 is a l ow number or average in American culture. It’s just that the elders in our culture say to hide your sexual past in order to get married and not shame the family. When it comes to respecting our elders and a random man online, we’re more likely to listen to our elders. Sorry.
What’s interesting is the definition of a sexual partner. Believe it or not, there are women that avoid vaginal sex during hook-ups, but do other acts. In their heads, the partners that they had vaginal sex with are the ones that count into their number. The hook-ups with oral sex/fingering or whatever don’t get counted in their minds.
We’re talking about a girl with “probably” 35. That is A) a very high number and B) she doesn’t even know. If that’s not a slut, then let’s banish the word, because it has no meaning.
The vaginal virgins who take it in every other hole repeatedly are also … sluts.
Sorry.
I agree that 35 would make me squint. I had a female friend that thought I was being extreme for not having sex after dating my boyfriend for a month. I think a month is way too soon for my own comfort when assessing if someone is LTR material. Considering that she was a 34 year old that slept with 50 guys , I took her views with a grain of salt. This is kind of mean, but the man I dated told me, “What do you expect from someone who can’t keep her legs shut?” Yikes.
@WarmWoman
Welcome back, I had to figure out your new screen name.
Yeah, if you’re getting naked with someone else, even partially, and there may be an orgasm involved, that’s “sex” in my book. And probably a lot of other peoples’ books, too.
Any other definition just seems to be splitting hairs. And the reason for the hair-splitting? That just begs the question : )
He idealistic is my middle name. I knew I took a great risk in many aspects (like remaining a virgin at the old age of 27, looking for a man selective and with ethics that wasn’t trying to bang everything that moved…) but indeed it was worth the wait.
Hey guys, I”m just curious.
Let’s say you had a daughter or a sister that had some fun. What advice would you give to her in regards to disclosing her number? As your own flesh and blood, would you tell her to be honest or would you tell her to not disclose it? This is just a hypothetical situation, as I know some of you may cringe and think “No daughter/sister of mine would be doing that.”
Any responses would be appreciated.
If my daughter becomes that, then I will know that I have failed as a father and I will be very sad.
That said, since she is my daughter and there will be some residual love, if not admiration and respect, I would do my damndest to convince her to (genuinely) change and repent. This would involve significant (self) humiliation and pain. If it didn’t, it would be phony. I would also INSIST that she be honest with any potential husband. Not that I can control that but I am damned sure not going to blunt what I know is the right message just because we share DNA. If anything, that fact requires me all the more to be brutally honest with her.
Megaman-Thanks for the welcome back. I’m doing paperwork for my job and was bored….I guess this place is as addicting as facebook.
I also think it’s unrealistic to claim to be a virgin, yet giving oral to a number of partners. I was just curious as to what others though.
Escoffier-Sounds like a heartfelt response, but I’m not generally referring to women that have slept with 35-50 guys. Everybody has their own subjective opinion on what’s “too high”. Let’s say a woman with 6 partners is told to just say she had 2 or to not say anything at all. The “do tell or not to tell” seems like a hot topic for debate nonetheless.
If my daughter has six parters lifetime, then I will have failed.
@WarmWoman
My advice would be complete honesty. She wouldn’t need to come out and talk about it on her own if her guy didn’t ask, but I definitely wouldn’t advise lying about it. For what it’s worth, I’d have no ethical problem with one of my sisters having a high number of partners. I would have a big ethical problem with them lying about it to a potential long-term partner.
And I practice what I preach in that regard – I’m certainly not going to go volunteering information about the more private areas of my life, but if a woman I’m getting serious with really wants to know, I’ll tell her the complete truth.
It sounds like the main factor is whether someone would ask or not. I’ve been in LTR’s where this hasn’t occurred. We both knew we had previous significant others, and it’s assumed that sex happened. My social cricle doesn’t talk about this stuff either, so I wouldn’t know how common it is for people to ask.
@WarmWoman
Not to mention anal sex, which is big among the abstinence pledging crowd.
LOL, forgot to add that! This reminds me of a joke about the Clintons
Hillary: Did you have sex with him (Chelsea’s fiance).
Chelsea-Not according to dad!
@WarmWoman
My advice to my sister (which I don’t have) would be to tell the truth, period. And let the chips fall where they may.
I have no idea what advice I’d give my daughter. I can only tell you how I’d try to prepare her to avoid the hookup scene.
Susan- I was reading in the forum that you said this
“I”ve said it before – here I go again. I would not mention it, at all. It”s not relevant. If you were not a virgin, you would still have the same policy about when to have sex. So pretend your number is 3 and stop worrying about it. No one is going to expect you to perform like a pro. If you bring enthusiasm and focus to the experience, it will be great, trust me.”
So, I take it that you are okay with not being honest about your number? Correct me if I’m wrong.
@WarmWoman
No, no I meant pretend in your own head. IOW, SayWhaat is obsessing about her virginity and how/when to tell guys about it. She has had bad experiences with guys responding poorly. I’m just saying she is not obligated to confess this as if it were an STD! She should have sex when she is ready to have sex, regardless of how many partners she has had.
If she has trust and intimacy with a guy, that is ideal and of course she can share that. But that’s been hard to come by. I do not condone lying, ever, but no one said every virgin must wear the scarlet V either.
Apart from saywhat’s situation, what is your professional opinion on how women handle the “Should I tell him how many partners I’ve had?” I don’t personally believe that you have to announce your sexually active past like a STD either. At the end of the day, it’s all about what your gut instinct is comfortable with and what you feel isn’t anybody’s business. The reason why I’ve been in relationships where this question hasn’t popped up is because I set my boundary of not dating people that ask that stuff. I was once on a first date with a man that asked “Since you were 18, how many boyfriends have you had? Why did your relationships end? How long did your relationships last?” I thought that was odd to ask when getting to know someone, and this man didn’t get a second date.
@ 200 Escoffier
Why would I do it again? Because even though I’ve definitely lived through periods of intense player-dom, I’m really a family man at heart. I want to wake up with a house full of kids. I want to be old with grandchildren everywhere.
I feel like it is my imperative to procreate.
I find the pump and dump and harem lifestyles to ultimately void and shallow. And I say so from experience, not speculation.
I’m rightly concerned about the risks involved in marriage however. All signs point to a good start with this one: not interested in a big wedding, not interested in a big ring, wants to be a stay at home mother if possible, she can cook, bake and feed me, she wants me to continue to be the man of the house, she brings her own financial resources to the table (far more so than I do as a matter of fact), comes from an intact family and wants desperately to be the mother of my children.
@susan:
thank you so much for taking time to respond. She has had a couple of serious relationships. She is close with her mother and sister. She has a handful of close friends from college. She appears to be perfectly healthy, sane, and able to make lasting relationships with others without and problems. She has been completely loyal and devoted to me thus far and through my own internalization of Game, MMSL strategies, Dalrock principals and the like, I believe the structure is in place for a long lasting healthy relationship.
In fact, the way I even really come to thinking about all of this was by going through Dalrock’s “interview” questions for a potential spouse and one was their thought’s on promiscuity. That is what got me really thinking about her past which of course is only half of mine.
She and I talked about this issue at great length last night. I wanted to understand why she did what she did. She asked me the same about me. There were lots of tears and regret. She says she wishes she wouldn’t have done some of the things she had done, but at the same time is happy with who she is today (as I am with her) and therefore its hard to have regret over the past. She explained that there were definitely times where she felt peer pressure to have sex (upon arrival to college as a virgin), where she used sex to make her feel good about herself, and other times where it was just plain fun. All of which, I understand.
So taken in whole, I think that her ability to form lasting and sincere relationships with family, friends and two boyfriends – along with me, shows me that she is not “damaged goods.” And while I believe in the double standard, it is hard for me to fault her 100% for indulging in what was on offer to her as an attractive woman. She has been 100% devoted and loyal and I suspect that this will continue.
All that said – there is still something that shocks me deep in my brain to react negatively to all of it. I used to just say, “well you’re with me now” and that would be the end of it. I think I just need to go back to that.
@WarmWoman
I think a woman has every right to say she is not willing to share that information. Or she can tell the truth. Those are the only two ethical options. However, it doesn’t matter what I say. I know that women lie about this all the time. I have personally heard women go through the process of recalling their sexual encounters, then disqualifying them from the total until the total gets down to 6 or so. (From 30 something).
@dunnoindc
Your relationship sounds wonderful. I think you are very wise to stay with a woman who is making you happy. Best of luck.
Susan-I agree that the bottom line is deciding what’s comfortable for you. People have boundaries, and I think a healthy and mature mate will respect the boundaries that you have. If someone is not comfortable with sharing or doing something just because everyone says you have to doesn’t mean that they have to compromise their boundary.
Dunnoindc–I’m glad you’re able to listen to your own inner wisdom and realize that you’re happy. I’m guilty of asking advice online, but people bring their own experiences and feelings into the equation. It’s true that women having casual sex doesn’t have to do with sexual urges itself. Low self-esteem, peer pressure, feeling like you can’t say no, trying to win a guy’s approval, etc…..all can factor in. It sounds like you’re understanding of why she did it, and are willing to move on.
“I’m just saying she is not obligated to confess this as if it were an STD! She should have sex when she is ready to have sex, regardless of how many partners she has had.
If she has trust and intimacy with a guy, that is ideal and of course she can share that. But that’s been hard to come by. I do not condone lying, ever, but no one said every virgin must wear the scarlet V either.”
To women on when to disclose – when the guy asks you, AND when sex is reasonably imminent. If either is not true, there’s no need to go into it. A dude has no right to ask such personal things unless sex is fairly imminently on the table, so if you’re not ready to have sex with him, deflect his question as not appropriate at that time.
“The reason why I’ve been in relationships where this question hasn’t popped up is because I set my boundary of not dating people that ask that stuff. ”
This strikes me as a very callous and risky strategy that will eliminate a lot of decent guys. It effectively denies the humanity of any man who has a healthy sense of anxiety about promiscuity as a personality trait (not saying you are or aren’t, don’t recall what you’ve said, just that a guy trying to find out will be instantly rejected? Hmph.)
““Since you were 18, how many boyfriends have you had? Why did your relationships end? How long did your relationships last?” I thought that was odd to ask when getting to know someone, and this man didn’t get a second date.”
This is a bizarre and inappropriate question for a first date, same as if a woman asks a guy for his long-term family plan and how much money he makes. But that doesn’t mean that every guy who wants to know your sexual history should be disqualified from your consideration.
I forgot which thread I posted the Will story in, but yay I found it!
Haha, actually you did. Name changed to protect the innocent.
Probably, but probably not! What he had going for him was that he wasn’t afraid to make the move. On our first date I was looking over one of his record album covers when he just took my chin in his hand and leaned in for the kiss. It was a very tingly makeout sesh, haha! However after spending more time with him, it became clear that he’s a little more clueless than originally thought.
Btw, this video blew my mind today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaKsEwQKF_E
Oh boy. Yes the peeing pink a whole morning after was my imagination. I love to hallucinate with blood obviously. For God’s sake are they going to erase virginity with their feelings now too? My next superheroine superpower would be Superfeelings, capable of feeling out reality. “No I don’t feel the bullets will pierce to my skin and make me bleed to death” and she will actually be right. It would be a success!
I think all the judgement about this is BS. It’s just a number. She was being honest with him. Some other people would lie & hide the truth of their sexual history because they’d be judged for it. The fact is we all should be more honest than we are & sooner.
Perhaps she’s had more experience and that means she has a better idea than some people of what she wants. Perhaps that means she’s a better partner for him, in bed & out of it. Perhaps it means she’s worked any ‘wandering’ out of her system & will be more likely to make a committment when she’s serious about it, vs. some other people who make a committment without knowing what they’re doing, what they want, and turn around & cheat on their partner.
A person is who they are partly due to their life experiences, you either love them or you don’t. And if you love them wholeheartedly, then it’s unconditional, you accept them, past & all. You can’t hold their past against them. If you do, you don’t truly love them & you aren’t suited to be their partner.
Should the couple in the original post above have had a better sense of each other’s past before now? Yes. Should they have had the sex history conversations long before now? Yes. Was she refraining from disclosing it to him because she loved him and knew he was likely to be judgmental narrow minded in this regard & not be able to get past it? Possibly.
And in that case, perhaps they aren’t the right partners for each other. In which case it’s good they found out now before going any further than they already had. If it doesn’t work for him, that’s fine, he’s entitled to what he’s comfortable with. But that’s all it is. Some people would be comfortable with it. He apparently wasn’t. For heaven’s sakes, don’t write an advice columnist in the newspaper – seek out a counsellor and explore your own issues around this & whether you’re okay with it / can accept it or not.
I once knew a woman who had not had an excessive number of partners but was experienced, and she was involved with a guy who she quite liked & was trying to make things work with, and things were getting quite serious. But he was less experienced than she was, and she felt she had to downplay her experience & pretend she knew less than she did, because of his frail male fragile ego & pride & arrogance. Give me a break. It goes without saying that they didn’t last & she found a partner who was a much more suitable match for her & treated her like an equal.
An ideal partner is someone with whom you can be 100% yourself and not have to hide or pretend anything, and to also be able to discuss anything. If you can’t, then in the case stated in the original post above, he’s not a suitable partner for her, he’s not up to it. In my opinion a more loving open minded unconditionally loving, modern, reasonable, rational male would make a better match.
In my opinion, Meredith nailed it. What was Conflicted hoping for, someone who was a virgin until marriage? If we’re going to use the “other cultures” standard, there are plenty of cultures where virginity at marriage is considered desirable as proof of chastity. In some cultures, virgins are so good, they’re what you get in heaven! But idolizing virginity is only a few steps away from wrapping women up in burqas to protect them from the corrupting influence of men’s desire. Is that urge underlying his discomfort?
I wonder if Conflicted isn’t just on some level scared of a woman who is more experienced and confident than him sexually. To me personally, his “values” seem archaic, ancient, and judgmental. If he dumps a fantastic woman over that, he deserves what he gets and then someone actually loving can be with her instead. I can’t imagine being self-righteous enough to pretend myself an arbiter of a woman was chaste enough. (If she got through STD-free and approximately sane, we’re doing ok. Life is imperfect.) What I can’t bring myself to say is: “I’m sorry, but I know what is best for you, and I retroactively decree that what you chose for yourself was not best. I hereby reject you.”
Actually, any commenters who would sit in judgment of others are saying the same thing- that they are so wise that they know other peoples’ hearts better than those people do themselves. You’re saying you know what they want, need, their feelings, their hopes and their dreams, better than they do themselves. Maybe at the time, what 26 needed was practice, experiences, connection, adventure, and frankly to get her rocks off. Will Conflicted and commentators really wag a finger and say “HOW DARE YOU” at her for having those natural qualities which apparently harmed no one (no more than life’s slings and arrows which are par for the course)? Having fulfilled those, her needs evolved into the need for commitment. This sounds like a perfectly normal and healthy progression to me.
It’s one thing to say “I can’t help but note Choice A oftentimes has Negative Outcome B.” Perhaps, but a choice can have downsides and STILL be the one someone needed to chose at the time. People have the right to be “wrong”/non-optimal. Example: Conflicted doesn’t HAVE to be with her just because I personally think that’s the totally obvious right choice. Maybe what Conflicted needs right now is a meek, mild, and obedient woman who doesn’t threaten his self esteem by having a past more adventurous than his own. And if his undies are in a twist about this, maybe he should go find himself some other virgin girl who doesn’t make him feel all nervous and conflicted inside. If I were to guess, I MIGHT guess that psychologically, what he is afraid of is the part of Commitment where he doesn’t get to completely own/control his partner, including not being able to re-write her past into exactly what he wants. Unconditional love means just that- deciding if you accept even the parts of them you don’t like. If he can’t do that, then yes he should move on to someone who more closely matches his exact specifications for the Perfect Woman. (Good luck finding better.) If it were me I would hold onto 26 with full firepower and be happy for the positives (experience, self-knowledge, large sexual repertoire) her past brings.
I so can’t stand men who are like this. I cringe at the thought of dating them and try to avoid them.
That’s fair, but you should know that the vast majority of men care about a woman’s previous sexual experience.
I just had a quirky idea for an analogy… if this were ballroom dancing, could we say “most men care how many previous men a woman has danced with?” In the ballroom scenario, wouldn’t more previous partners be better? She’d probably be a better dancer for it.
There are only a few ultra-logical reasons I can think of why it would matter:- 1) trying to determine STD risk 2) trying to guess attachment style and commitment. 1- can easily and objectively be determined with science and STD testing. 2- is trickier and a little strange, because people grow and adapt. What they did in the past isn’t a good predictor of the future because past people weren’t you and people grow and change. Finally it feels a little someone who thinks there can be “too many” people in the past wants their partner to imprint on them like a baby duckling, and are worried the imprinting instinct is now too diluted. (Rather than two independent, mature adults deciding they enjoy partnership together.)
Except that we didn’t evolve to ballroom dance with the opposite sex, with those exhibiting certain dance behaviors (such as loyalty to your dance partner) being more reproductively successful than others.
If we had, people might have similar emotions about their ballroom dance partners. Things that are irrational in the modern world, but were shaped by eons of selective pressure among dancers.
The ultra-logical basis for those emotions (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. Most of the things we look for in the opposite sex have no conscious, logical basis. If I’m not planning on ever having kids, why should I be more attracted to younger women? If a woman already makes plenty of money and has a high social status, why should she be more attracted to successful or powerful men? It’s not so easy to just reason those things away, they’re wired into the very structure of our brains.
Not to say that it’s necessarily a universal trait, I know some guys who really couldn’t care less about their woman’s past. But they’re definitely in the minority, so this is something that it’s good for women to be aware of and take into consideration.
I’ll grant your point we have evoluation’s echos in us, but I don’t see that as excuse to just give all such things a pass. Example: Evolutionarily, it makes fantastic sense to rape all your enemy’s females after a combat victory, to fill them up with your stronger DNA. I do not see many people advocating this evoluationarily successful strategy for our modern armed forces today. Some points of view, while once successful, I believe should be considered obsolete, barbaric and un-gentlemanly.
I suggest that lingering obsession with a mate’s sexual past, while far less than combat rape, is now one of these. I advocate the ballroom gentleman’s point of view.
I suggest that lingering obsession with a mate’s sexual past, while far less than combat rape, is now one of these. I advocate the ballroom gentleman’s point of view.
Maybe the solution is the opposite people that have a lot of sexual experience should try to look for likewise partners. Knowing that they are more compatible, instead of shaming the people that want a partner with low story of “dancing” into considering themselves wrong for their personal likings. How about that for individual rights any woman that doesn’t want to date a man to judge her sexual history should tell it in the first date and get it out of the way as to avoid this undesirable individuals.
I think it’s fair enough if men who’ve not had many sexual partners want to marry women who haven’t had many, and vice versa. What I won’t stand for is men who’ve had lots of partners themselves yet want to make an issue out of a woman doing the same thing — that’s a sexist double standard, and hypocrisy.
Multiple sex partners is never good, especially for women. Most men, if given the choice, would choose a virgin. We know this isn’t reasonable, so we are drawn to the next best thing, minimal penis invasion!
.
I don’t agree that I should look for a woman who has had a lot of partners just because I have. It’s like saying, I’m an alcoholic, so I want an alcoholic partner. Isn’t it ok to desire a person with better qualities than yourself?
.
I called off my engagement to a woman after she left the house with her email open. Yeah, I looked, just like you would have. She had like 14000 undeleted emails for the past 5 years. No infidelity, but I saw that she dated multiple guys at a time, and was even used as a late night booty call for some guy for quite a while. I tried to get over it for about 3 months, then gave up. I saw her differently after that, like used goods. It was burned into my brain. I never regretted calling it off.
Sad. Mad. Glad. The three stages of a breakup. Never more true.
.
Another dealbreaker for me is if a woman has dated a much older guy in her past. I lived with a girl for 9 months before finding out she ‘dated’ a 60 year old for a few years. She was early 20′s. No 20something finds anything attractive about a 60 except his wallet. She went into ‘hooker’ category in my mind, and I left her. I even stopped seeing a 22 year old that told me she dated a 39 year old guy. Although I am an admitted hypocrite, as I am sure I would do it when I am 39!
.
I think thats many guys, including myself, are attracted to bitchy girls. We see it as sort of a ‘built in cock block’. The girl I am casually dating now is way too nice. I dig her, but the niceness has to go. She is way to hot to be that nice. I can go to the bathroom at the theater while she’s in line, come back and she’s smiling and talking away to some dude who thinks he has a chance. And thats when I am there, imagine when I’m not. She doesn’t strike me as slutty AT ALL. Shes just one in a million, a hot chick who is friendly! Think I’ll break it off with her too!
.
Someone touched on the bisexual issue. Agreed, bisexuals are a major boner killer, almost as bad as a lesbo. Bad enough we have to worry about 50% of the population getting into our girls pants, now we have to include 100%? Not a good program. I’ll stick to man lovers. Although I am a flaming hetero, I wish I were a bisexual, so I wouldn’t have to cut out half the population! Sigh.
Are people who are bisexual less prone to mind the idea of their partner having other lovers of the same sex/gender as themselves? Is this part of why men seem (on average) to be a bit more judgemental than women about their partner’s past number of sexual partners? Like, men are (on average) a bit more homophobic than women, so thus men are (on average) more bothered by the idea of their wife/girlfriend sleeping with other men?
I understand that the paternity issue is probably a factor as well. What if a woman’s willing to have a paternity test each time she gets pregnant while you’re married to her? Would that help allay concerns about her sexual history?
In any case, part of what I think is unfair is this: a lot of men (or so I hear) want to have a threesome with two women. Yet, at least one of the women involved is not going to end up in a long-term relationship with the man, thus her number of sexual partners will be increased by 1 without getting a long-term relationship to compensate for it. So, what are women supposed to do in the face of these competing pressures from men?
The answer is to not have a threesome if you can’t handle the consequences. Ever hear of personal responsibility?
I have been following this thread for some time. I have been married for 13 years to a wonderful woman – the mother to my 2 children. And yes, I suffer from sexual jealousy around her “number.” Before she met me, she slept with ‘well over 100′ men. I have been reasonably successful with women, but her sexual experiences well outnumber mine. It also bugs me that she has had a threesome and I have not – but I digress.
All this bothered me right from the get-go, but I stuffed my feelings down as I was so much in love with her. I still am. She is the kindest person I have ever me met, and I consider myself lucky to have her in my life.
But the problem with sexual jealousy is that it is something that one cannot intellectualize away. It lives in my gut like a tapeworm.
After 2 years, I stuffed my feelings about this issue. I covered them over so completely that it snuffed out my sexuality.
That was until about 4 months ago. Now the uncomfortable feelings have re-surfaced. I am seeing a psychiatrist right and he is not really helpful around this issue. He tells me to ‘get over it.’
Indeed, I will continue to try to heed his advice as she is worth any effort, as am I. However, I suspect that my getting over it is going to involve living the rest of my life with these uncomfortable feelings. It is going to mean being extra careful about not acting out and keeping these feelings to myself (as best as I am able.) I am going to concentrate on activities that occupy my mind and time and I am going to live as productively as I am able.
The bottom line is: it is not her issue, but mine. She has done nothing wrong except **maybe** make some poor choices. That is not a crime. She is a human being.
I feel great, great shame about my reptile brain reacting as it does and I really do not want to judge her. I fantasize that something like electroconvulsive therapy could just ‘shock it out’ of my grey matter. But I think that this is an atavistic / evo-psych thing. Something that affects some men and not others.
These feelings are something that is also made worse by witnessing my mother doing the same thing and it stokes up abandonment issues that stem back to my boyhood.
One thing: I do not like the word ‘slut.’ It makes me feel raw.
I am a kind and loving person ordinarily, and very sensitive. Please try not to judge me too harshly as I did not choose to feel this way. I am trying to deal with this as best as I can and own it as much as possible. I just wanted to share here as a form of therapy if you will. Thank you.
The only correct answer for a woman to give, as regards sexual history, is a very narrow range. Based on your age and past circumstance, I suggest picking a number between 2 – 8 and incrementing it up for every three years or so for your life, until you reach the upper limit and then keeping it there perpetually.
I have never told a single soul my true number. And I’ll take it with me to my grave. Friends judge you. Men judge you. Doctors judge you. I don’t want to be judged. I don’t judge myself. I’m proud of myself. Perhaps, I’m just another part of the “sex-positive feminists” which you say like it’s a bad thing. But I truly don’t see myself as having done anything over than be smart and make myself happy. I have no regrets.
And my number isn’t even all that high. I know what I wanted for each and every encounter. I was choosy. And I did orgasm every time (in this way I am a somewhat of a freak of nature, I recognize that is not the case for the majority of women).
I am delighted to have discovered this site as I am coming face to face with this issue after years of naiveté and ignorance. A past like that really matters to me. Last year I was in bed with a girl that I liked. She started telling me about a summer when she was 19. She and another girl would proposition men in their theater group for three ways. She said they had 5 that summer.
Like a lot of men, the thought of a three way with two women is one of the most sought after experiences there is. As she talked I found that I had begun to put my clothing back on. I didn’t realize what I was doing until she asked me if I was making her uncomfortable.
I have always forced myself to be ok with women’s promiscuity or number or whatever. But I can never be. Like the evolutionary psych, I can’t help that I feel that.
I hope that I can adjust because, no offense girls, there are a lot of women that have histories that would disgust me (disgust is a good word because it is so primal feeling and sensory feeling, like something that smells bad).
I’m wondering if I should give up on women. Most of my female friends still have one night stands and cheat on their husbands. I’m almost 40 and I wonder if I can get a girl that I like who didn’t go over the top.
One more thing. I’m even concerned about the use of the term double standard. Women control and own sex. Men don’t. For me to get laid takes major effort and weeks or months. A woman could have sex as fast as she could find a man. So… However, Susan, I did like your plea for moderation for both sexes.
Thanks again for this blog.
rudiger,
If I may, I have a few comments and advice.
First, I think it’s absolutely okay that you are repelled by promiscuous women. Everyone has their own comfort level with this and relationship dealbreakers in general. For men, this is a common one. Myself, I’m repelled by feminine men and for women that’s pretty common too.
Wow. Well, I don’t think you should give up on women yet! You’re not even 40 so it would be premature to chuck it all.
Now, I think it would be prudent for you go out of your current social circle for potential dates. The reason being, if one of your female friends set you up with one of her friends then it’s likely they share the same outlook towards sex/hooking up, which is something that does not appeal to you.
So where to find these mythical women that might be a better fit for you? Ha, they’re not a myth and they’re all around you. The problem is how to meet someone compatible. Can’t say I have the answer, but I have some tips that may be helpful.
First, do your best to be the best you can be. If you’re out of shape, hit the gym. Eat healthier, if you don’t already do. Get a new hair cut. Perhaps spruce up your wardrobe. The reasoning behind this, is that all these personal changes will increase your confidence and well-being in spades! And all of that positive energy you built up towards yourself with reflect outwardly throughout every area of you life — from work to appealing to women.
Now that you’re in an even better mental frame than before, you’ll probably get more interest from women in your daily life. Here screening and filtering out women who aren’t what you want for LTR prospect is critical! Look for character tells. However, I think you should actively pursue women you’re interested in instead of choosing from women who show interest in you. You have a better chance of getting what you want.
You might want to try Meetups.com and see what women you meet from activity groups who have similar interests (for example: cycling, sci fi movies, playing cards, skiing, cooking, etc). Or try online dating – which would allow you to see vital information concerning values upfront via their profile and establishing communication in writing before meeting in person.
Men holds the cards for commitment.
Sure it would be relatively easier for a woman to find a willing man to have sex with, but finding a man that she likes -> who likes her back –> and is willing to commit is HARD. It easy to settle for someone, but most women want someone they actually love + are madly attracted to! Just like a man would not be content with easy sex from women who are 1s and 2s!
Both sexes are holding the keys that the other wants, although ultimately MOST of us want both: sex and commitment.
To me as a woman, I don’t care I personally would have an “easy” time getting sex/hook ups. That’s not what I want. I’ve never had casual sex and never regretted that. It was a choice I was actively making to skip the whole hooking up scene. What I desperately wanted was a relationship with a guy who truly cared about me and vice versa.
Iggles, thanks so much. I am incredibly raw right now because of the long story of this last slapper. I think I jumped the gun on claiming to never being able to find a reasonably chaste woman. This past woman was an alcoholic binge drinker, she told me about past heroine and crack use, she told anecdote after anecdote about anon. boyfriends, she would go out 4-5 night a week and have mysterious “plans” some nights. We only talked about commitment once and she said she was kinda like a bachelor. She is 35 and never been married. So I pulled out emotionally from the relationship and she finally emailed me that she was seeing someone else but “missed having sex with me.” oh her password on her computer was her last boyfriend before me!
I slept with her on the first date which is a tell and I chose to hang around, so who is to blame? But this was the first time I ever questioned my liberal view of promiscuous women. I felt sorry for her and angry for getting tricked into a relationship (albeit halfway relationship). I felt that I was betraying myself by saying I don’t care if she has most likely slept with dozens and dozens of guys and girls. THe above description I believe shows character traits of a slut.
It was a personal crisis that knocked me down, akin to when my wife left me. But I got a number from a little cutie today so that made me feel better. BTW, I work out 6 days a week and pay close attention to my cloths and how I appear, including hair. But more importantly I own my own business which is my great passion. THanks so much for the advise. I found her on OK cupid she stalks that place for raw meat. Some women are so aggressive.
I agree about the commitment, but if girls are going to display behavior that is non committal, like what I described above, why should I get hurt? Also, should I be like one of the guys above who married a girl who had 100 lovers. He says he goes to a shrink to deal with it! Christ!
“Both sexes are holding the keys that the other wants, although ultimately MOST of us want both: sex and commitment.”
Totally agree. What a wonderful summary. But if she walks like a duck in her present and past live, I worry she has been damaged by whatever so much so that she can’t commit.
Wow this thread has been going on forever.
I’m astonished that a bloke is consulting a psych for the personal strain of marrying a woman whose had ‘well over’ 100 partners. I’m sure she is lovely and im sure you love her and your kids but for me and most guys personally, any number more than 10 is a deal breaker. To be honest as a man you’d want to have a number at least 10 more than hers just to keep some sanity.
I wouldn’t have even bothered dating a girl with well over 100, I’d just add another notch to her burgeoning belt and move on.
Men will always, always want a woman with less partners than them and even those sly gals out there who keep a low number well it’s easy to tell if she being honest by her overall personality traits.
This is the reason why, as someone from the middle east, I’m going to make sure my numbers are at least 10-15 and that I marry a simple decent wholesome girl. She can be taught to be a freak in the sheets!
I don’t think I’d even wanna sleep with a woman whose bedded 100+ penises before me, that’s like doing a prostitute.
Way late to this party, but please consider tempering some of the armchair evolutionary psychology and pop sociology guesstimates like 80:20 with actual data, please?
I refer you in particular to Bob Altemeyer’s twenty-four year “Secret Survey” of his psychology students (and their parents — yes, really) at the University of Manitoba. He presents his findings in the book “Sex and Youth,” a preview of which is available here. http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/sexandyouthpreview.pdf
It’s a short read, and while most of it is devoted to methodology and factual descriptions, Altemeyer’s style is quite personable and easy to follow. He also shows admirable restraint in not casting moral judgments on the survey respondents, nor imagining elaborate Freudian backstories for results that fall outside his own personal expectations. Ahem.
The very abbreviated version is: the proportion of women who participate in casual hook-up culture is nowhere near 80%. While it tends to be true that women as a population are more experienced than the population of men the same age, this is generally due to the fact that women begin having long-term relationships at a slightly younger age. For a person in their twenties, two or three years can make a big difference in terms of sexual experience.
For the majority of both men and women, the first sexual experience of any given kind (from kissing to kinky sex or any stop in between) comes during the course of a relationship. A woman’s first experience is most often at her boyfriend’s place. A man’s first experience is most often a his girlfriend’s place. When a woman is exposed (breasts or genitals) to a man for the first time, the man is most often the one who removes her clothing. When a man sees a woman exposed for the first time, the woman most often removes her own clothing. Numerically, this leads to only one possible conclusion: most men have their first experiences with a more experienced woman. And they’re usually in a relationship together at the time.
35 partners versus — oh, let’s say 5 or 10 — might be on the extreme end of the experience gap, but insecure men would do well to observe that the real-life trend is exactly the opposite of what pop culture has taught us to expect (worldly stud, virginal girl). A man who’s less experienced than his partner isn’t some kind of chump. He is completely normal. So is his partner.
You are of course free to question whether the habits of University of Manitoba psychology students can be generalized; whether the results of a survey that began 24+ years ago remains relevant in the Facebook era; whether a retired Canadian liberal arts professor is too out-of-touch or too biased to draw meaningful conclusions; whether the responses to the Secret Survey can be taken to be honest in the first place; etc. All valid questions, which are addressed right there in the free sample and at greater length throughout the book.
I wish more of the embittered “beta” males my own age, and older, could understand just how commonplace their experience is and make peace with the fact that there doesn’t have to be anything outrageously wrong for men to still be virgins into their twenties and even thirties. It’s futile to compete with a fantasy that doesn’t even describe the “alphas” — who, when it can even be argued that they exist, aren’t even close to 20% of the population.
I’m a 26-year-old woman, and a virgin. My life is the product of both circumstances beyond my control and choices I made for myself — just like everybody else’s. Yes, celibacy (voluntary or otherwise) can be much more difficult for men in many ways, and it’s been difficult enough for me at times — but that doesn’t make it any less ordinary. If anything, it’s even MORE ordinary for men than for women!
As a culture, we’re getting ourselves all worked up over what we imagine everyone else is doing, when the reality for the vast majority of us is much more mundane. Of course it’s fair to wish things were otherwise, but not to form expectations, much less a sense of entitlement, based on fiction.
@EAS
Oh, I know. I’ve estimated it at 15-20%. I’ve actually written rather extensively about this, though I am not familiar with the particular study you mention. One post you might want to check out is:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/04/28/hookinguprealities/whos-really-having-sex-in-college/
This whole piece and lots of the comments make me feel very down about my chances of finding marriage. I feel like becoming a born again christian.
I am 26 and have had 30 sexual partners. Two were LTR. I know that my attitude to sex was screwed from a young age, my background is dysfunctional. I lost my virginity at 17 to a male (beta) friend and didn’t see sex as important. I just wanted it out of the way. Being a virgin made me uncomfortable. I didn’t experience a lot of peer pressure either, it was my own opinion. I have been more promiscuous than my closest female friends. I just saw sex as something to experience and learn and I wasn’t always that fussy with my partners. They have been an assortment of different types of men. I’ve never purposely gone out and looked for the good looking-alpha males all the hot guys in college and uni I avoided (plus I didn’t see myself as good enough anyway I’m probably a 7/10) although I have slept with few usually hooked up with betas. At uni after being promiscuous I settled into a 4 year LTR – this guy was of equal standing to me and I was more experienced than him. He was a great guy (a beta). But at the end of uni I dumped him, due to fear of commitment and hooked up with a alpha narcissist and suffered immensely. Being so messed up over this guy and my life in general I slept around.
Now I’ve gone through 2 years of counselling and I’m trying to be celibate (haven’t had much luck so far I last 4 months). I wish I’d worked out my issues a lot sooner and I hope that my ‘psychological’ damage and high number doesn’t become a huge deal breaker in the future. Looks like I might have to move to another city and lie about my past. It saddens me deeply.
“I have been more promiscuous than my closest female friends. I just saw sex as something to experience and learn and I wasn’t always that fussy with my partners. They have been an assortment of different types of men. ”
What is it ever difficult to convince a man to have sex? What is it necessary to talk them into it or are these men always willing? Did getting sex from a new man make you feel accomplished? Did the ease of getting sex make sex feel like nothing special aka cheap? Did that acquired valuelessness ever run counter to how men feel about it, that other half of the population that does place value on sex? Do you ever wish for sex to have specialness and now find it cannot again due to the blur of that systematic “experience?”
“It saddens me deeply.”
You’re sad because of what you have done to yourself or because you know how men are universally and that requires you to dupe a good one if you want a relationship? Do you know if promiscuous women are angry because men are they way they are and have no need or interest in changing when it comes to how they define “relationship material?”
@NK
I’m glad to hear you are in counseling. As for running away and creating a new identity, that’s not going to solve the problem, which is how you feel about yourself. I encourage you to stick with the therapy and I also think a sexual hiatus is a very good idea. Casual sex is obviously messing you up, and you’re not going to get better if you keep opening that wound.
@Abbot
Your questions answered:
What is it ever difficult to convince a man to have sex?
The only guy who was ‘difficult’ was my 4 four year LTR. He took about 3 months to do it.
What is it necessary to talk them into it or are these men always willing?
Always willing.
Did getting sex from a new man make you feel accomplished?
After I lost my virginity I was just ‘experimenting’ seriously I didn’t like the guys no intention of becoming GF. Then in my LTR sex became wonderful and after I left him I just couldn’t seem to live without it. Some guys were potential boyfriends in my eyes, but my sex drive seemed to spoil thing by sleeping with him too early. I am not sure about feeling ‘accomplished’ it felt more like satisfying a ‘need’. Around ovulation is when I’m horny and if I drink alcohol I’m easy. Those drunken times I always regret.
Did the ease of getting sex make sex feel like nothing special aka cheap?
Yes and no – only time i’ve felt ‘cheap’ is when I’ve been drunk and once when a guy a uni told another guy in front of my friend.
Did that acquired valuelessness ever run counter to how men feel about it, that other half of the population that does place value on sex?
Im not sure I understand this question.
Do you ever wish for sex to have specialness and now find it cannot again due to the blur of that systematic “experience?”
Yes I wish for sex to be special, but I haven’t stuck around with anyone long enough recently to find that. That rarely happens straight away in my experience. The time it did feel ‘special’ was when I was shagging the narc.
I do feel that sex can become special again. I don’t feel that my experience has blurred it into a ‘systematic experience’. I am just worried that I’ve spoiled my chances when a guy in the future takes a chance with me and finds out my ‘number’.
@Susan Walsh
Thanks for replying. I hope this new therapy works. Doesn’t help that I’m depressed right now too. The internet has a habit of showcasing peoples true opinions and after reading on here and other sites the attitude towards a high number, I am asking honestly do you and anyone else think it will it be a huge hinderance>?
As for the celibacy, I’m trying again and I don’t drink anymore. My new anti depressant is said to decrease sex drive – yes please!
@NK:
I hear a couple of things from you and would like to offer an alternative viewpoint.
1- The “chances of finding marriage” and “dumped him for not wanting LTR” phrases tell me you would eventually (or sooner) like to be in an LTR.
2- The “sex as something to experience and learn” and the “I last about 4 months” tells me you like sex for its own sake and aren’t too uptight or inhibited about it.
3- From what you said about “lying about my number” and “moving to another town”, it sounds like your social circle generally knows your number and you’re worried it could be or is casting you in a negative light and getting in the way of the LTR you (eventually or sooner) want.
While SOME men see a high number as a negative thing, and likely will be deusch bags about it even to the point hypocritically allowing THEMSELVES a “high” number while at the same time not allowing you one, not all men are like that. I for one see a high number as a good thing and actually select for it. (My number is 5, but of those I’ve bothered to ask, none of the women I’ve been with had a number lower than 40 at the time, and I like that.) “HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY SEE THAT AS A GOOD THING?!!” some hysterical types, like Meredith’s man, might screech.
I’m glad they asked. In this case, I like an analogy about EMTs going on ambulance missions or pilots completing airplane landings. Would you rather call 911 and get an ambulance where the EMT had done 3 missions or 30 missions? Would you rather the pilot landing your plane have 5 successful landings or 50 successful landing under his belt? Would you send one back if he’d done “too many”? Or maybe the pilot analogy would be even better if I said “if he had flown 50 different types of aircraft.” Does that mean he’s a coward who can’t commit and will probably crash the 747 we’re in today and he now has 8,000 flight hours on? No, it means he’s learned a LOT more about flight by trying out a lot of different airframes. He’s BETTER than a guy who has experience on exactly one airframe. The way I see past sexual partners is very close to this. “Specialness” is not a limited, precious liquid that drains out leaving you a worthless husk if you “spend” it. Each relationship has its own potential to be special, and frankly that potential grows if others have the ability to be accepting, loving, and non-judgmental you and all your experiences.
Therefore, I see trying to convince you that you are somehow broken, damaged, dirty, whorish, or in need of fixing based on your number is actually ass backwards. Based on what little I know, I see the things you mentioned as positives. You’re a 7/10? Perfect, that means you’re quite pretty without having the Princess/Celebrity Complex that it seems like too many 9-10/10 American girls have. You tend to like betas? Perfect, I’m one, and although they might have less confidence they tend to try a lot harder and be pleasanter in the long run. You’ve had 30+ partners? Perfect. You probably know a lot about what your wants and needs are sexually and would know how to show me, who has had 5.
The fact remains that some people, for a variety of reasons, disagree. Some men say “It’s evolutionary, I’m just protecting my DNA” (I think I debunked that pretty hard). “I need to know if you’ll cheat” (past numbers do not predict future performance in different circumstances). Some say “I don’t have any good reason and I know it’s hypocritical but it’s just the way I am” (forget those guys).
So, my suggestions are these: If you honestly like sex every 4 months or more often, go ahead and find some, there’s no point in feeling guilty about that. It seems like it’s a counter-productive at this point because you’re focusing more on “Oh no I failed again and had sex like my body wanted again, I’m so dirty and bad and a failure” than gaining a sense of freedom from it. If what you really want is an LTR, by all means keep focus on that, state that as your goal up front with potentials, and like Susan says probably don’t think of sex as a way to “rope a guy in”. (Who likes being roped in or tricked or upsold into anything?) Holding out until such time as he expresses his mutual commitment level like Susan suggests is one strategy that could work. There are others.
Finally, about the Number. Moving to a new social circle might actually give you the fresh start you want, and frankly I think exploring fresh parts of the world once in a while is a good idea anyway to shake off dust and moss. Sort of like Susan said, it will help to know what you want and how you feel about yourself, because moving won’t change those. (Unlike what Susan said, I don’t agree with the connotation that you are “messed up” or have a shameful past you would be “running away” from like a criminal though. Susan can be kind of dour that way.) Now, as for telling people your Number, there are a million fair things you can say besides just telling them what it is and enduring their judgment. “I consider that part of my private life.” “A lady never tells.” etc etc.
It is part of your private life. If you don’t tell them and they push that, they are being ungentlemanly pushy. They’re not inherently entitled to that or any part of your life. The idea that even an LTR has some inherent right to every part of your mind, every part of your self, all your thoughts and memories is UNTRUE. There will always be parts of your life and experience that you can keep to yourself. If they can’t wrap their minds around that one, then they are probably too clingy, controlling and don’t understand boundaries. You WILL eventually meet a men who do not demand your Number… that will be one of many signs that they are correct for you.
@Shane Wegner
That is a very detailed response. Thanks for the effort and the thought, seriously!
I don’t feel terribly guilty about ‘having’ casual sex – I’m just concerned that in the future my number could cause issues. I haven’t met a guy yet whose demanded to know my ‘number’. A guy I dated for 6 months told me he couldn’t remember his and didn’t care about mine, but he wasn’t LTR potential, he had too many issues of his own. I am primarily going to therapy for emotional issues, depression and childhood shizzle. I am aware of my attachment issues, craving intimacy but running away from it etc…
My bigger annoyance sleeping with a guy too early because I have no impulse control….
“SOME men see a high number as a negative thing”
If it was just “some” there would not be all the angst out there among promiscuous women and NK would not have the wisdom to consider lying. Of course, that could change. All these claims that its just “some” men as an effort to shame the “throw backs” [aka the vast majority] may actually work.
“You WILL eventually meet a men who do not demand your Number”
Yes. Eventually.
NK consider trying, meditation, qigong (springforestqigong.com is good)or yoga and check out the site reuniting.info.
Am I right that you where quite happy with your beta boyfriend in the 4 year LTR? As your promiscuity did not include much alpha chasing its effect on your ability to be attracted to a realistic partner is much less. That helps you a lot. The manosphere has a lot of girl game advice that can help you be seen as a very god catch by a nice beta before the number question has time to come up. Once it does you will then be positioned much better. It can also help to spin things as you having had a trubled confused phase of your life and not having gotten to a healthy balanced place through therapy, life cahnges leaving healthier etc. That contributes to the promiscuity being seen as less relevant to who you are today.
@Wudang
I had a 3 month period with meditation, ‘used’ to do yoga in the mornings. I do understand the benefit, unfortunately right now I’m too low to do anything, but in the near future probably will attempt a healthy schedule again.
I was quite happy for a time but I had extremely low self esteem and felt slightly ‘trapped’. I know it wasn’t my partners issue, it was me.
I really don’t like having to lie in the future – I’d like to think that my actions in the future will be enough to assure my partner that I won’t cheat.
NK. Order the springforestqigong beginner dvd and do 15-20 min once a day. Even if you are depressed that shoudln`t be hard and it will make a big diference. It is waaay more effective than yoga in terms on mental benefits and wil strongly help you get out of depression and low self esteem. Also youtube six healing sounds and do the lung sound 12, 15 or 18 times. It is effective against depression and also helps with issues of boundaries/bodily integrity. After you get into this for some time you can also check out the inner smile. Very good for loving yourself and respecting yourself.
If you make yourself a person that FEELS trusthworthy and non slutty it will have a big impact. By making a contrast between your old troubled self and your new healed self the old you seems less relevant and threatening which also would be true.
You have a better chance of finding a man who will be forgiving of your partner count in yoga, meditation, spiritual, new age circles. Thats because partly because they apreceate big personal turn arrounds and personal healing stories and partly because the men there are much more drilled in acepting womens right to have many sex partners.
“You have a better chance of finding a man who will be forgiving of your partner count in yoga, meditation, spiritual, new age circles.”
Does that imply that promiscuity limits female relationship choices based solely on how men think?
” men there are much more drilled in acepting womens right to have many sex partners.”
Drilled? by whom? Why does it require drilling? Where has it ever been stated by men who are interested in commitment that women do not have a “right” to many sex partners? Helpful hint: a man only cares about the behavior of “his” woman or potential gf/wife and that has nothing to do with rights.
“Don’t like promiscuity? Then don’t engage in it. Inevitably, liberty has annoying consequences”
Obviously it most certainly does.
There is no free lunch.
Women, take note…
http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/25/feminism-mansfield-eaves-oped-cx_ee_0926pandora.html
.
@Abbot
Did that acquired valuelessness ever run counter to how men feel about it, that other half of the population that does place value on sex?
Im not sure I understand this question.
Could you explain this please?
What has value? That which is rare or unique or special or a challenge to acquire/accomplish or other attributes. When something is easy or treated as being easy or in abundance then it has less value, less specialness and it is far less held in awe. It is also holds less value in your mind, the way you think about and the way you treat it. Devaluation in your mind can be acquired by treating something that was of value in a valueless way, a cheap way or just getting it in so much abundance that the value once associated with it is gone. That includes sex and your sexuality. Women have a far greater opportunity to cheapen their sexuality than men do. That makes women and men different.
I can’t agree with “cheapening” the way you describe it. Let’s take an eating analogy. Sometimes I roll through a drive through and scarf down a $1 burger. Sometimes breakfast is a bowl of cereal I wolf down in 60 seconds.
Have I ruined “eating” for myself forever, “cheapening” it for all time? No. Is Thanksgiving dinner now worthless? No. Can I only appreciate it if I fast for dozens of days ahead of time? No.
No, it doesn’t work like that. They’re both eating. But what makes one special is the time and effort involved in that particular meal. Thanksgiving is special because I am working to make that meal particularly special. And it doesn’t matter how many snacks I’ve had in the previous months.
The hypocritical standard that sex by itself “cheapens” women is a myth, meant to humiliate and control women, keep them in line, and keep them a second class sex for following their libidos. Want more control example? Your cheapening argument is only a hair away from saying we need to wrap women up in burqas because showing their sexuality cheapens them. Further example? Men are basically exempt from this myth. It will only exist as long as we perpetuate it. Please don’t take the easy road and assume that I therefore advocate the extreme opposite, that all women should therefore be promiscuous all the time. Women should seek out what they want, fulfills them, makes them happy overall, be that LTR sex or non-LTR sex. Without being told that whatever that is is somehow cheapening them or draining out their specialness like a vampire. (And I don’t accept the argument that “All women want all LTR sex all the time.”)
I will agree that seeking sex to try and cure low self esteem could backfire leading to a pattern of low self esteem. But that’s true of a lot of actions involving trying to win the approval of others instead of being secure in oneself.
“The hypocritical standard that sex by itself “cheapens” women is a myth”
The cheapening of sexuality applies equally to women and men the only difference being that there are far more promiscuous women than men [not because men don't want to be]. Those are the two standards. Of course sex, even the promiscuous variety, does not cheapen women so its not clear where this so-called “myth” is being expressed.
“meant to humiliate and control women, keep them in line, and keep them a second class sex for following their libidos.”
Why would any man out to get laid or otherwise want such a devastating scenario? Makes no sense at all. Is that control currently on-going in the US? Seems odd. Women can easily, with practically no effort, satisfy their libidos especially when running with the harem.
“Men are basically exempt from this myth. It will only exist as long as we perpetuate it.”
What are men exempt from and how exactly are men perpetuating anything whether myths, fantasies or tales? Or is this perpetuating thing a matter of actions or rather inactions or a lack of motivation to accommodate the shifting sexual and relationship needs of women as they age? Perhaps the latter is getting more to the heart of the matter.
“Women should seek out what they want, fulfills them, makes them happy overall, be that LTR sex or non-LTR sex.”
Then there are two types of women, behaviorally speaking? Its a quick fix for women given all the always-willing men, at least for the non LTR crowd. Why should a women deny herself this easy effortless addictive pleasure? And alas, here we are.
“Without being told that whatever that is is somehow cheapening them”
How is it cheapening “them” as a person and what crowd of dating men tell them this? If a woman indulges and feels bad about what it is doing to her sexuality, she should stop, or not, up to her. Nobody cares, If a man she meets with the idea of a LTR quietly dismisses her for any reason he so deems, that is his business. Nobody cares…..you would think. But alas, here we are.
“And I don’t accept the argument that “All women want all LTR sex all the time.”
Welcome to the West.
“Please don’t take the easy road”
ooops, too late. See above.
@Abbot
‘What has value? That which is rare or unique or special or a challenge to acquire/accomplish or other attributes. When something is easy or treated as being easy or in abundance then it has less value, less specialness and it is far less held in awe. It is also holds less value in your mind, the way you think about and the way you treat it. Devaluation in your mind can be acquired by treating something that was of value in a valueless way, a cheap way or just getting it in so much abundance that the value once associated with it is gone. That includes sex and your sexuality. Women have a far greater opportunity to cheapen their sexuality than men do. That makes women and men different.’
Thank you for explaining further. I can see your argument and to some degree. Talking in terms of my own experience, I do not feel that sex has become cheap or value-less for myself as I believe that there are different kinds of sex. Shane’s metaphor about food does explain my view.
“I believe that there are different kinds of sex. Shane’s metaphor about food does explain my view.”
That is the general promiscuous female view. The challenge now is to get men to buy into that view as it is stubbornly unnatural for them to do so. Maybe the way to do that is to convince them that its in their best interest to change or to motivate them in some way. What do you suggest?
@Abbot
Most people know that relationship sex is much more fulfilling than flings/ one night stands for women. I assume it is for men as well? I know this, is one of the reasons that I want a LTR. One of the main pieces of advice that I’ve seen directed at men is to asses the quality of a woman’s companionship. Can you stand to spend time with her without sex? thats wife material. I wouldn’t want to marry a man whose only marriage goal is to have regular sex.
I do not want to continue being promiscuous, I regret my history. I know that my behaviour is the result of a deep fear of commitment/real intimacy due to childhood issues and hurt from a previous relationship. I crave the love,but run when it presents itself or sabotage. I sincerely want to change this.
NK, whatever you do, don’t lie to some guy. That’s a very cruel way to cheat him out of what he’s looking for. About the best you can hope for is a guy who never asks. They are out there I assume. However the % of guys who will see this as a positive is so low it won’t show up on most instruments. The % who won’t care is higher, but still a minority, I think 20% at the upper limit. Everyone else will care. Most will ask. Some might be afraid to ask but those guys are going to be trouble because if they suspect something but won’t ask because of their suspicions, it will eat at them and undermine the relationship.
“Can you stand to spend time with her without sex? thats wife material.”
Yes, that is one aspect of wife material. Unfortunately for some women, ALL aspects of what constitutes wife material is solely determined by men, not women.
@Abbot
So the woman is at the mercy of a mans opinion of what is ‘wife’ material?
Different stroke for different folks.
Ok last question:
Is the reason I have deciphered from this blog, comments and similar that promiscuous-ness is negative is because having a promiscuous past predicts the future. That I am more likely to cheat?
Or:
That my ‘value’ has gone done because I’ve had lots of sexual partners, therefore my future husbands sexual performance will forever be assessed against previous partners? Thus risking his damaging his ego.
Or a mixture of both?
Isn’t lots of therapy, denouncing your past, showing that you LEARNT from it
enough to show the husband that the risk is worthy, after all a woman who has experienced a broken heart, a fractured ego and eaten humble pie, more mature or wise than a less experienced woman?
I have found discussion of this topic quite enlightening and thank those who’ve contributed – btw.
Working out my future strategy in dealing with a potential hubby is what I am aiming for.
“So the woman is at the mercy of a mans opinion of what is ‘wife’ material?”
So the man is at the mercy of a womans opinion of what is ‘husband’ material?
That’s the trouble with “equality”
“the reason I have deciphered from this blog…”
…if you were to actually read what is now thousands of comments you would know that the overarching reason men prefer to avoid committing to such women is because it just does not feel right. If women were to actually respect how men feel and not “cheat him out of what he’s looking for” [as stated by Escoffier above] then there would be no kneejerk references to such things as “damaging his ego” or “hypocritical” or “archaic” or “controlling” and on and on. But alas, here we are.
“enough to show the husband that the risk is worthy, after all a woman who has experienced a broken heart, a fractured ego and eaten humble pie, more mature or wise than a less experienced woman?”
Men are people. People are lazy. Men will take the path of least complexity and least disturbing thoughts. Contextual or Relative promiscuity [claim of different types of sex] is just way too out there.
Beyond participating in sex, promiscuous women are perhaps asking for or imagining men who do not exist.
Here is a quote from Jaclyn Friedman aka America’s female embarrassment:
“But most days, sluthood helps me be patient. It keeps desperation at bay. It reminds me to enjoy the life I have now, instead of waiting for someone to come start it. It helps me know my heart better, and my libido. It makes me better at communicating about both of them, and much less likely to confuse the two. To my mind, far from ruining me for real love, sluthood is preparing me for it.”
She will indeed be prepared for real love and of course she assumes, rather arrogantly, that men will take her up on it like they did when all she wanted was sex. Certifiable she is.
NK, there may well be men out there who will be impressed by your turnabout. It’s a big world, odds are there must be some. However, they are going to be relatively few.
Look at this way. If you are an employer and you can choose one of five people with clean records or one of the two ex-cons in the pool, all else being equal, who are you going to choose?
Almost no one is going to see the turnaround as a net positive and prefer you to someone who never was promiscuous and never had to repent. Realistically the best you can hope for is someone who loves you enough to overlook it and be happy that you have changed. Rarer still would be a guy who genuinely doesn’t care and never asks.
Yes, the reasons you cited and others are why we care. Basically, we want someone special to us, to whom we are special, and how special can you (or we) be if you have been around that much? The idea that there are 30 guys out there who have “known” you in the most intimate way is a gigantic turn-off to us as well as a DLV on our part. That is, we think less of ourselves for being with a promiscuous woman. We’re the chump who bought the cow when all those other guys milked her for nothing. It makes the marriage less sacred, less special. It makes the sex within marriage less special. You can argue against any one or all of these points logically and it won’t matter. 80+% of guys feel this way and you are not going to talk them out of it.
I don’t want you to loose heart, you are doing the right thing and you are to be commended for that. But you did yourself a real disservice, much the same way that people who waste years of their lives to drugs, criminality, or other forms of vice do. Redemption is possible. I hope you achieve it.
All we (men) are saying is, realistically, what you have done to yourself has a serious consequence: it will severely limit the number of men willing to commit to you. Well over 50% of men who might otherwise be elligible will rule you out on this basis alone. That’s just a fact.
Another wretched fact is that of the remaining men willing to commit, some high proporition of them are going to have self-esteem problems and otherwise just be generally the type that you don’t want. Basically, betas grateful to be getting regular sex, not that choosy about where it comes from, because they lack the confidence to believe that they have options or could get someone more chaste.
You’re still doing the right thing and I hope it works out. Good luck, keep at it and be honest if you ever do get a guy close to proposing. If he never asks, I suppose you are not ethically obigated to volunteer the information.
However, I would advise the following. If you are with a guy who never asks straight out but who drops hints or in some way indicates the he is suspicious of/uneasy about your past, you need to tell him before you marry him. Otherwise it will hang over the marriage and rot it from the inside. I was in a relationship like that once, quite convinced the girl had been promiscuous but too scared to ask. In the end I declined to marry her. Had I done so, it would not have lasted and woud have been very bad while it did. In fact, it was quite tempestuous even when we were merely dating.
@Abbot
“So the woman is at the mercy of a mans opinion of what is ‘wife’ material?”
So the man is at the mercy of a womans opinion of what is ‘husband’ material?
That’s the trouble with “equality”
Abbot, this comment is what I call ‘common sense’. I don’t have a problem with this. I just want honesty. I feel that men in the past have not been honest. One time a guy was brutally honest with me and I was upset with his comments about why we didn’t work out but I got over it, but thats because he was mean not constructive. If you think I’m one of those females with ‘knee jerk’ reactions and the princess complex please assess again.
Thanks any hoes.
@Escofficer
Thanks for the advice. I’ll keep a look out for that rare man who doesn’t care.
“If you are an employer and you can choose one of five people with clean records or one of the two ex-cons in the pool”
Absolutely terrible analogy. A woman having sex, including lots of sex, is only a crime if you’re the TALIBAN. My advice to NK is you don’t owe any man your number. You’re perfectly within your rights to say “That’s private” or “A lady never tells.” If he tries to pry, warn him that he’s being ungentlemanly once. More than that, and end the night out and say “perhaps we can try again sometime you’re feeling more mature.” Alternatively, you could just develop your poker face in the mirror with friends until you can say “five” (+1 every 5 years) believably. Ask a stupid question, get a deserving answer. Having the confidence to do either of those means you’re well on the way free of your depression and beyond the leashes of guilt such men are unconsciously trying to chain you with.
Women are not cows, and sex isn’t a limited supply of Specialness Milk that drains out never to return.
“Having the confidence to do either of those means…”
…there is a severe shortage of commitment-minded men willing to accomodate promiscuous women.
” leashes of guilt such men are unconsciously trying to chain you with.”
That is way too complicated for what is a rather a simple scenario: a man who is merely weeding out women unsuitable for himself. Why this is such a problem for women to accept has never been explained.
“Women are not cows, and sex isn’t a limited supply of Specialness Milk that drains out never to return.”
A woman is special to a man if he, and only he, so determines her to be. For any reasons he chooses to use. Apparently, there is a growing contingent of people who find this version of male agency to be abhorrent.
@Shane
I’ll remember that every time a woman asks me about my job, my income, my hobbies, and if I’m just looking for a quick lay given women use those as disqualifies “unfairly” all the time.
After all, in choosing a mate, we really don’t need to know that much, do we?
“After all, in choosing a mate, we really don’t need to know that much, do we?”
For a promiscuous woman, selective revelation only applies to her.
NK, so, Shane is “proof” of sorts that men who view promiscuity lightly are out there. Just don’t kid yourself into thinking they are plentiful.
@Abbot @Herb
Yes it is hard out their. Lots of women disqualify men because of superficial items such as job and income. That is probably a superficial woman.
I keep getting told that ‘shared values’ are the key to commitment success and that these are way more important than other stuff. I can see this.
Most people don’t admit, own up to or are even aware of their own issues.
And yes I’ll respect a guys right to reject me because of my sexual history. I might be hurt, but I’ll get over it.
Wow, I shocked and dissapointed with your harsh judgements. I have recently started reading your posts, and often found them quite insightful, but for me this response could not be further from my views. 35 is a very large number,yet i do not believe it has an impact on her faithfulness in future relationships – I would expect infact a marriage to be less succesful if she weren’t sexually experienced because later on in life questions of ” what if” and “who else is out there” may arise. This woman has had a colorful past, but has settled down, and knows what she wants. The fact that she told him even proves to me she wants to enter a new chapter of her life, to leave the past in the past, and have a real relationship, and to starting their lives together with no lies kept between them. Additionally, i see nothing wrong with the advice given to him, he was upset and needed reassurance, and i believe that’s what the columnist gave him. He didnt need someone to feed into all his fears and insecurities, he was looking for something- anything to help get over it. In the end the decission is his to make, and if he truly couldn’t get over the situation the relationship would end regardless. What the advice given did might have kept him in the relationship long enough to get used to what he found out, and potentially saved the relationship, as opposed to agreeing with his insecurities which would validate and enforce his feelings, driving him out of the relationship sooner.
By the time I went to college, my number was 108. I stopped counting during college because I got drunk and “pulled a train”.
It was awful. I joined the military, even found a way to have sex with three men during basic training. I continued with this pattern until my mid 20′s. I married around 25 and have had one affair during my current marriage of 12 years. This affair has about killed my partner. He had a “revenge affair” as well. It has been 7 years since these affairs, and the pain of previous sexual partners and our extra martial affairs is just as fresh as when it happened, for him at least.
I found and developed a relationship with Christ half way through my marriage, and that is what changed me. However, considering my past, my husband has had a very hard time recovering from my affair. He wonders who I really am. Is my love real. Am I faithful on a daily basis. Am I changed. Am I who he wants? He feels cheated, even though it was his choice to marry me, I was not deceptive in any fashion about my past or current relationship styles at the time.
When we were dating, I was married and filed for divorce from a man I didn’t have children with. I was wild, free and dating several of his co-workers, which he knew, and when I became pregnant I readily disclosed he may not be the father. He was hurt and upset and yet begging to marry me, to be with me forever, we had dated for just 8 weeks at this point. We didn’t have a church wedding, we just signed the papers, no vows, but we did commit to each other and took each at our word. The struggles that have ensued have all been from his ego being bruised when his presence in my life didn’t magically change me over night. When we met, I was in counseling. I was in group therapy for various reason (depression, adult surviver of child sex abuse, promiscuity and risky behavior). I was a mess, tore up from the floor up. I thank God each day I wake up that I never got mixed up in drugs or alcohol beyond the casual drink.
Had I been a virgin when we met and married would it have changed his reaction to my affair? Maybe. Would it ease his doubts about recurrence? Maybe. If I had been a virgin would the hatred he spewed at me through his lack of emotion, intimacy, closeness never happened? Maybe. …… or maybe not.
My husband is most angry about the fact that HE wasn’t the one who saved me, changed me, helped me see value in my life and marriage, it was God. He is angry that he wasn’t good enough to make me change. He loves the idea of who he was supposed to marry, and somehow he settled for me. Ended up with me.
Pregnancy was his trap with me (I miscarried, but we stayed married, still no children) and with his previous girlfriend. She said “no” and he takes it out on me every day.
I love him, am hurt by his lack of empathy and forgiveness, as I’m sure if he knew I ever wrote something contemptuous like this, he’d be hurt too.
My point is, because I was very undiscerning, I landed a guy with so many red flags, that without the lost pregnancy I would have said goodbye to after a week or two of “dating”.
In my case, it was the maternal sense of wanting the biological father around that clouded my judgement. While paternity was a factual unknown, he did step up and say, it doesn’t’ matter, marry me. I was so blinded by the primitive urge to procreate that I ignored whistle and bells and flags of warning. Dated less than 2 months, had a daughter with another woman, told me he loved me on our second date. (he has some major markers on the Narcissist check list my counselor gave me), the signs go on. I really struggle with his inability to accept me for who I am. The sum of all my past. I struggle to accept his inability, which makes me seem hypocritical, perhaps I am.
I was never the type to equate sex with love, but I loved the companionship and the thrill of new lovers. I never would have guessed that maternity would have so radically changed my life. After more than 100 partners, I’d never had an unwanted pregnancy or STI until him. In his throws of depressed rage he verbally takes out on me, he later confessed he took advantage of that bottle of wine we shared and didn’t wear a condom, on purpose.
I have grieved over my lost virginity during childhood and the childhood I felt I should have had, but I forgave and moved on into peace. Now I find myself grieving things I did have control over, that sucks more than any of the other things.
I hope people read this and learn. Sex is a liberating force, a powerful force, motivator, but the consequences are grave, severe and very long-term.
Slumlord said it best: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/29/hookinguprealities/the-sex-risk-for-women-that-no-one-likes-to-talk-about/#comment-4028
His explanation is outstanding because it explains the meaning of “the number”. Because guess what? It’s just a number. Two women with the same number are not made equal. You may have heard men showing their contempt for sluts by saying that sluts are cheaper than whores. There is another glimpse of male psychology there: if I had to, I’d choose an escort over a slut because the escort didn’t exercise her mating selection while accepting her customers.
@Shane Wegner February 11, 2012 at 7:20 pm
Quote: “I just had a quirky idea for an analogy… if this were ballroom dancing, could we say “most men care how many previous men a woman has danced with?” In the ballroom scenario, wouldn’t more previous partners be better? She’d probably be a better dancer for it.”
This is chick logic at work. A man doesn’t seek a more experienced partner. Whatever he wants from her, he asks for it. Also, you don’t expect your ballroom partner to commit to you, do you?
@Anacaona
Quote: “Maybe the solution is the opposite people that have a lot of sexual experience should try to look for likewise partners.”
That would be wise indeed. Issues seem to arise whenever two partners with a different path, therefore with different values, meet. And I wonder whether it is not a coincidence that formerly promiscuous women feel uneasy about their Number because it hampers their chances to land the least promiscuous men, whom they perceive as more reliable, maybe unconsciously. Albeit I admit this may be dick logic on my behalf.
@Shane Wegner December 4, 2011 at 5:48 pm
Quote: “I wonder if Conflicted isn’t just on some level scared of a woman who is more experienced and confident than him sexually.”
Hahaha! Talk about projection
@Ruby July 30, 2011 at 10:00 am
Quote: “Hi, I don’t understand why no one is bringing up another point about promiscuity. Women are allowed to claim sexual pleasure just as men. Or we should be allowed without all those ‘damaged goods’ issues you mentioned.
The purpose of the clitoris is nothing but sensation. It actually outrages me the more I grow up (22 years now) that it’s not okay to be sexual, just be sexy. Hence so many women are not intune with their sexuality because it is a bit shameful. Unless he’s husband material what the hell!? I don’t care for that I just want to explore my sexual appetite and it’s outrageous people still think ‘women aren’t allowed’ to!!”
The issue is not that men don’t want women to explore their sexuality. The issue is about women who want to extract sexual exclusivity from men after such women have shown that they do not attach much importance to sexuality. This is what men mean when they are disappointed that they are expected “to pay more for her” than her past partners. I wouldn’t mind an LTR with a woman with a promiscuous past, as long as she doesn’t expect me to be sexually exclusive (and I wouldn’t expect her to either, of course). On the other hand, a woman who has cherished her sexuality with the goal of sharing it with worthwhile men, then such woman would be in the position to ask for an exclusive relationship.
Looks like I’m looking for someone for an exclusive relationship whose had a similar past to me then! Ive got no problem with that at all.
But then perhaps my 30 sexual partners means I don’t deserve one aye?
Ive had enough of thinking about this now – I know that I regret some of it, but not all of it. I know that I have been and am still in therapy for issues with intimacy/commitment. I will always respect people who have faced their issues and got past them. Whether I am one of them or not. Just makes you stronger. SO I guess I’ll be looking for someone who respects this also. Its like not wanting to date a former addict – whose worked hard at getting past their issues…..
@Susan Walsh
Quote: “And it makes sense. Conflicted feels like less of a man because of her past experience, even though she didn’t know him yet. It devalues her attraction for him to zero.”
This is not what Slumlord said. He said that Conflicted feels *their relationship* is nothing special, not Conflicted himself.
Quote: “By the way, that may not be the case at all. She may have changed her ways, and resolved to be more selective, then met Conflicted and fell hard for him. We can’t assume that her feelings for him are not special, it’s just that he will believe they aren’t based on her past experiences.”
Susan, you must understand that, unlike women, men don’ t think they so special that a woman will change after she has fallen in love with them. *Of course* he will believe her feelings aren’t special, based on her past experiences.
Well guess what! Women are just as bothered by finding out that their men were total whores as well. Women are definitely wired to desire men that are more selective. No woman wants to know or suspect that her man has been with dozens of women.
“No woman wants to know or suspect that her man has been with dozens of women.”
True. Fortunately for women, very few men have been with dozens of women so their odds of running into one, let alone winding up with one, is pretty slim.
« 1 2 3 »
{ 11 trackbacks }