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Can Women Run GAME on Men?

“He doesn’t get a monopoly on the rent space in her head. He doesn’t get Park Place, and he doesn’t get Boardwalk. He gets one of those little purple properties next to Go.”

Sherry Argov, Why Men Love Bitches


Since I wrote about Game in a positive light last week here, I’ve heard from several women who would like to learn a female version to get the men they want. I’ve also received some emails from women concerned about how to resist Game when it’s being wielded by an unscrupulous man. These are both excellent questions.

Can women run Game on men?

No. No they can’t, sorry.


Women are more selective than men when it comes to mating. Because they [theoretically] risk pregnancy with each sexual encounter, they must choose carefully to give their unborn children the best possible genes on offer, from a man they believe they can depend on to co-parent. Men compete with one another for the right to have sex with the female of their choice. However, men are not too choosy, because their biological imperative is to inseminate as many women as they can. Men report that for them, the sexual attraction switch is a simple on or off, and it doesn’t take much to flip it into the ON position.

Game gives men a shot at improving their chances as they compete with one another for sex. It was derived from an understanding of evo psych, and honed by watching the responses of women to men in the field. The explicit goal of Game is to win the sexual attraction of the female. How it goes from there is up to the parties involved. In my opinion, a smart man will continue to apply whatever knowledge he has about female psychology to further his case for as long as he knows her.

The only things women need to win the sexual attraction of the male is a vagina and a willingness to share. That’s Game for women, right there. It’s probably not enough to support one blog, much less a whole industry. This leads us to the second question.

Once a woman has signaled sexual attraction, is she just a sitting duck? Does she cross her fingers (if not her legs) and hope that the desired man is not a predator?

Is there anything a woman can do to maximize her chances of getting a man into a committed relationship?

Yes. Yes, there is.


Raised on a steady diet of fairy tales, romantic comedies, chick lit, and women’s magazines, women are prone to being too accomodating in their dealings with men, to their own detriment. We fear that if we stand up for ourselves we will lack femininity and repel Prince Charming. We want to be his ready and waiting Dream Girl, and when we think we may have glimpsed him, joy wells up in us and all is right with the world.

Then we watch his back as he runs for the hills. If we’re especially unlucky, we may have to watch him proceed to newer, more alluring prey.

The best book for women ever written on this topic is Why Men Love Bitches by Sherry Argov. I have read many, many self-help books for women, and most of them suck. I loathe The Rules, which is all about pretending to be something you’re not, and I have a love/hate relationship with He’s Just Not That Into You, which is all about coming to grips with not being something he wants. Women need real information, based on male psychology whenever possible. I believe Ms. Argov has done quite a good job of laying down some very effective advice.

Why did Sherry Argov write Bitches?

SA believes that women habitually make the mistake of being “too nice.” This often manifests itself as neediness and weakness, which equates to a lack of self-respect.

You cannot win a man’s affection without first earning his respect.

The attraction part? That’s easy. It’s the sticking around part that gets really, really difficult to pull off.

SA describes a woman with high self-esteem:

  • She possesses a subtle strength, which comes from her ability to be independent.
  • She does not give up what she values in her life.
  • She knows what she wants, but will not compromise herself to get it.
  • She uses her femininity to full advantage, but she plays fair.
  • She does not indulge in romantic fantasy, but uses presence of mind to pull back when appropriate.
  • She must give low priority to what other people think.

SA interviewed hundreds of men in writing the book, and the prevailing theme was that men want a “mental challenge.” They focused on wanting a woman who is independent rather than needy, and many mentioned liking women with a bit of an “edge.” Her book is laid out as a series of 100 Attraction Principles. Below is a sampling of the ones I found crucial in Chapter One.

AP #1: Anything a person chases in life runs away.

Men run away from a woman whose behavior suggests that she doesn’t place a high value on herself. When a woman deals a man her best card right away, he has gotten a reward without putting in any time or effort. Her best card may be sex, or it may be her going to ridiculous lengths to cook for him, etc. Do not outpace the interest of any man. If a man earns your affection, you may reward him for it and he will appreciate your acknowledgement of his effort more.

AP #3: A woman is perceived as offering a mental challenge to the degree that a man doesn’t feel he has a 100% hold on her.

It’s about whether you are capable of holding your own in a relationship. Do you expect respect? Does he know that you are not afraid to be without him? The nice girl doesn’t want to “play games,” and is available all the time. A bitch is more selective about her availability. A bitch DOES NOT DO BOOTY CALLS.

A woman who believes she is not enough does the following:

  • She calls him often.
  • She is on call for last minute plans.
  • She states clearly that a relationship is her goal, and asks him about it early on.
  • She is often mad and disappointed when he doesn’t pay enough attention to her.
  • She asks him about his ex or other girls.

A woman who believes she is enough says “Take it or leave it.”

  • She returns his calls when she’s free.
  • She sees him when it is convenient, and does not sacrifice other plans, work or rest to see him.
  • She wants to have fun, not make promises to a virtual stranger.
  • She allows him enough distance to be curious as to where she is and what she’s up to.
  • If he brings up his ex, she looks at her watch. She refuses to compete with other women.

AT #6: It is your attitude about yourself that a man will adopt.

When a man considers a woman a prize, looks have little to do with it. It’s because she believed she was a prize, and acted like it.

The first date is about looks. When he falls in love, it’s about your attitude. It’s how you hold yourself, and whether you can hold your own. The difficult part is not attracting his interest, but sustaining it.

When a woman gives 100% to “make it work,” a man feels, “She is really nice, but there just isn’t any chemistry.” In contrast, a bitch loves herself, so she could never want anyone who doesn’t want her. NEXT!

AT #9: The bitch prioritizes her dignity over having a relationship.

A man cannot need a needy woman. He cannot depend on a dependent woman. He cannot fear the loss of a woman who is afraid to lose him. These things are all mutually exclusive.

A bitch is polite but clear, and communicates very directly, in much the same way that men communicate with one another.

In summary, here are the 10 characteristics that define her:

  1. She maintains her independence at all times.
  2. She does not pursue him or keep tabs on him.
  3. She is mysterious. This means being honest without revealing everything. She does not lay all her cards on the table.
  4. She leaves him wanting. Men equate longing with love. Don’t be so available that he has no opportunity to experience longing.
  5. She doesn’t let him see her sweat. She speaks in a “bottom line” way.
  6. She remains in control of her time.
  7. She maintains a sense of humor, except about disrespect.
  8. She places a high value on herself, and doesn’t compete with other women.
  9. She is passionate about things other than him.
  10. She treats her body like a finely tuned machine. She maintains her fitness and health as a reflection of her self-respect.

This is good stuff, no? And that’s just Chapter One. You need to buy, beg, borrow or steal this book. (If you do decide to buy it, you can click on the Amazon image to the right = tres simple.) It’s not Game, but it’s a pretty nice blueprint for holding your own in a relationship. How “bitchy” you will need to be will vary somewhat depending on the kind of guy you’re with, and you should feel free to fine tune as necessary.

Men learn fast that showing too much interest too soon drives a woman’s attraction down to zero.

Women need to learn that becoming dependent and committed too soon signals low value and will similarly drive a man’s attraction through the floor. Or up into the hills.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Chilli

    Wow! Looks like I'm a certified bitch. Except for that last one; I care about my health, sure, but finely tuned machine? Hmm…

    Something interesting: who is it that calls these women bitches? Men? Other women? The media? From what is stated here, it seems like Argov is describing what would be intuitive actions for any strong and independent woman. Why the dysphemism? I'm hoping this is just a sales gimmick.

  • susanawalsh

    Hi Chilli, welcome and thanks for commenting! Argov does go through an explanation in the intro to her book. She uses the word “bitch” here to mean a strong and independent woman, it's definitely not pejorative. When I first read this book I thought it was a title doomed to failure, but she has been incredibly successful, with her third book due out soon. She's been on every major television interview show, news show, etc. So I guess the word Bitches did the job after all.

    It's great that you can read this and feel like you are pretty much in good shape wrt self-esteem.

    So go out there and play a Player!

  • GudEnuf

    “The only things women need to win the sexual attraction of the male is a vagina and a willingness to share.”

    Maybe a male who doesn't have dignity. But I would not have sex with woman who thought her sexuality was more valuable than mine.

  • name

    this is how girls should act prior to getting into a relationship, right? just to clarify things..
    or does the girl act this way during a relationship ?

  • susanawalsh

    What do you mean a woman who thinks her sexuality is more valuable than yours? Are you saying that you have the right to be as choosy as she is?

  • AT

    I never knew I was a certified bitch, either, until I read this book last year, after being married for 12 years, ha! In all of my relationships except for the very first one (when I was still young and very immature), I was always the one who walked away whenever I felt disrespected, and never felt worried I was going to be alone or not find someone else. The way I saw it, it was better to be alone than to be with someone who didn't treat me right. I think this is a huge part of why some (a lot?) of women become needy–they feel that they need a man to define them, and are terrified of being without one, so they cling and hang on to men who aren't worth it.

    The funny thing is, I had one ex call me six months before my wedding asking me back. Another ex found me on facebook just last year and confessed he had always considered me as the one who got away. The common factor between them? I never hesitated to call them on their BS, and dumped them when I felt they weren't treating me with respect (I'm a three-strikes-you're-out type, unless it's abuse. Then it's just one strike and I kick your sorry ass out). Mind you, I'd be the first one to tell you I don't consider myself a 10 at all, but I'll be damned if I was going to be treated as less than one.

    13 years married with two sons, and my husband says I still keep him on his toes. The sexual pull is still there (I'm a firm believer of No. 10 in your Summary) and I've never treated sex as a chore (already bought very naughty lingerie to bowl him over for Valentine's). I read a lot, keep myself informed and up to date with current events, and he says I'm still the only one who can make him laugh so hard his stomach hurts. But more than anything, he KNOWS I wouldn't hesitate to leave him and take the boys with me if he messed up, and I won't ever tolerate any BS. And ladies, you HAVE to stay a bitch (as Argov defines it) even when you're in a long term relationship. Take this from a “bitch-for-life.”

  • susanawalsh

    Hey, name, thanks for your question. This is for early days, I would say. You've attracted a man, and you want to sustain that attraction, not have him get bored and take off. I think Argov is writing for women who have trouble getting to the relationship stage, which is an extremely common complaint.

    However, all of these principles are totally applicable to a long-term relationship as well. In fact, I'd like to think this is how I conduct myself in my marriage. It is important for a woman to retain her own identity separate from the relationship, and that she tolerate no disrespect. This is true whether you met last weekend or have been married for years.

  • susanawalsh

    AT, you've touched on something really important here that is terrifying to women: the fear of being alone. One thing I hear a lot from young women is that they want a “distraction.” They have a guy who's expressing interest, and they know he really doesn't have LTR potential, but he's attentive (at least for now), and it's nice to have an entanglement to dwell on and dress up for. Of course, it never is that simple, and often these “distractions” become emotionally difficult or even destructive. Sometimes it is MUCH better to be alone, and a smart woman will always be prepared to walk away when a relationship is not fulfilling in the important ways. The sooner you walk away from a dead-end relationship, the sooner you will be ready and available for something real.

    Mind you, I'd be the first one to tell you I don't consider myself a 10 at all, but I'll be damned if I was going to be treated as less than one.

    This is brilliant! Wow, I love this!

    AT, you are such a great addition to HUS! You're a lot younger than me, but very wise and tough as nails! You, Rebekah and now Aldonza are the women to watch! There is MUCH to be learned from women who have the whole breadth of experience.

  • AT

    Name, if you distill all of Argov's book, it boils down to one thing: self-respect. If you break down all of her relationship principles the underlying message is: Value Yourself. In her book, a bitch isn't one who tries to dominate people or keeps insisting on her own way or makes unnecessary demands or disrespects men herself–far from it. She is someone who has a complete sense of self that she would not accept being treated with disrespect. And that is something everyone, man or woman, should do well to follow, not just in relationships, but in all areas of our lives.

  • GudEnuf

    In terms of ethics, I believe in a sexual free market. I would say that anybody as a right to be as sexually fickle or flexible as they choose. I also believe that nobody has responsibility to provide anyone with love, sex, intimacy or commitment (unless they promised too.) I'm not going to cast moral judgements on women for how they choose to use their sexuality.

    That being said, there is a line I will not cross. I don't treat women like meat, and I expect women not treat me like a salivating dog. I will not have sex with a woman if I think she is doing it because:

    She's trying to butter me up for a favor.
    She thinks it's her “duty”.
    It's my birthday and she forgot my present.
    Ect.

    The only condition I will not have sex with a woman unless I am sure that SHE WANTS IT. Sure it's cost me a few lays, but men need to realize there are more important things.

  • Chilli

    The main problem with books like this is that it's one thing to tell someone with low self esteem to respect themselves; it is quite another to actually go out there and do so, especially if you have suffered from low self esteem your whole life. That's not to say that Argov doesn't have good intentions, or that people cannot change, I'm just pointing out that many women, if not the majority, will pick this up, read it, put it away and go on with their lives without changing a thing.

    Even if they do change the way they are acting, is not calling a man back right away and deliberately making other plans so as not to appear too available really that different from what is wrong with The Rules? Either way you are not acting true to yourself.

    Defining an independent woman is easy, getting to be one, if aren't naturally, is hard.

  • Mani

    Aunt Sue, Can I just say I LOVE YOU FOR WRITING THIS!?

    Is there seriously any way I can favorite this? I'm bookmarking.

    I don't know if you remember but a long time ago I wrote you an email about wanting to attract “douchey” guys..you know the type! And in that, I found myself wanting to just PUT MYSELF OUT THERE for them 24/7. It actually happened when I was a freshman and had the biggest crush on this [frat] guy (you know why I said that for a reason :D..) and I was pretty much his “second rate makeout buddy.” He was in love with this other girl who was by definition “the bitch” (I'm talking MADLY in love with her, head over heels) but when it came to me, he would just go to me after we both got trashed after a night out. I really WAS his booty call when I sent out a mass text about coming asking if people were coming to a party, and he replied “Maybe I can do that, and possibly you later.” ICK.

    On the flip side, other guys have gone for me. They haven't been guys I have attracted to, so I was by DEFINITION a bitch to them…and the weirdest thing was, unintentionally too!! Guess what? The buggers won't leave me alone now! Seriously, it's text after text after text even though I CONTINUALLY turn them down. I say I have other plans, maybe another time, and I flake out left and right but they just can't get enough! Now I'm not saying what I'm doing is a good thing, I think I just don't want to hurt other people's feelings, so I avoid them and keep saying no (I should just learn to outright SAY no, though, it would relieve me of a lot of stress.) Turns out, they really don't stop…they become MORE obsessed. You hook them. It's the pretty boys who give me butterflies. I act like the needy girl around them, so they trample all over me. For the ones I don't care about them, it's like I got them on a leash.

    I SEE THE LIGHT!!!

    I am going through a dry spell right now (unfortunately) but I will report back if anything happens! I think what's important for me most right now is to just switch up my attitude and focus on the bigger picture, which is right now, my schoolwork and joining clubs, etc. Always eying men and putting yourself out there hoping they will notice you is asking for disaster…its being needy in its own way. So for now, I'm going to totally enforce these rules and see what changes :)

    <3

  • susanawalsh

    Well, this is very commendable, and I respect it. Perhaps you know that men with this sense of moral integrity are not commonplace.

    I'm all for a sexual free market, but I would argue that both sexes have a moral obligation to avoid deceit. A man who pretends affection or fidelity to a woman to get sex is no worse than a woman who uses sex with a man to get anything, including a relationship, adoration, forgiveness, whatever. As for the bday present thing, ouch.

    The absolute worst is the pity f*ck. I remember one good platonic friend, and he had a gf, but he showed up at my apartment one night to say how tortured he was, that he couldn't stop thinking about me. He suggested that if he and I had sex, he would know whether he really loved her or not. I wasn't into him at all, so I assured him that he loved her, he didn't need sex with me to discover that. He was adamant and passionate about it, and pleaded his case for two hours. Finally, I said what the hell and took this guy into my bed. When it was over he said, “Wow, I thought you'd be sexy and passionate. I can't believe you just laid there. I guess I do love her.”

    womp womp womp

  • Chilli

    Looks like someone just proved my point null and void! Great job Mani!

  • steveo

    The only things women need to win the sexual attraction of the male is a vagina and a willingness to share.

    Yep. That's all it would take for me now. However, no woman is “willing to share” with me.

  • susanawalsh

    Yes, Chilli, this is a very good point. Self-help books cannot change your life. You read them, you take in one or two key pieces of information, and back on the shelf they go. In fact, this book came out in 2002 and I read it awhile back. Today I thought of it in response to the inquiries I was getting about Girl Game, so I started to go buy it, only to discover it was on my bookshelf. As I looked it over, though, I was surprised at how relevant and timely it seemed. And also very useful, potentially. I think a book like this is to be read, put away, maybe re-read if you're in a situation where you're feeling the guy has the upper hand.

    I see this book as very different from the Rules. The Rules says don't accept a date after Wednesday, don't stay on the phone more than a certain amount of time, etc. It's all very rigid, not based on “conditions on the ground.” This book is not saying make other plans so that you are unavailable when he calls, it's saying don't cancel a prior commitment if he calls at the last minute. The way young people roll nowadays, plans often don't get made until 9 pm for that same night. If a guy texts or calls you at 9, and wants to meet up, by all means go for it if you don't already have other plans. If, however, a guy texts you at 2 a.m. wondering if he can come over, I suggest you tell him that you have a plan to sleep. He'll get the message soon enough. Guys always know who will text back (and come over) in the middle of the night. Booty calls are NEVER a good idea for women.

    Getting to be an independent woman is very hard. It takes practice, and work. While you're figuring it out, fake it till you make it. Eventually, you will find that you get MUCH better results from guys when you stand up for yourself.

  • Mani

    Thanks Chili! :)

    It definitely took me a while to see this, but I finally did, right after reading Susan's post. What you said about low self esteem pretty much describes me – I have had TERRIBLE self esteem for all of my life. But I have recently learned that there is no magic to changing – you just have to do it. And NOBODY can tell you to do it but yourself – no amount of therapy, self-help books, or anything. These can be tools, guidance, but you must ultimately be the one who says “I'm done with feeling this way about myself – it's time to start over.” It's definitely a process for me to reverse years of self-hate and negative thinking, and I'm growing and getting better (not there yet, but I hope to be there one day – a truly independent woman)…but it's all about how you put yourself out there, what your priorities are, and how you value yourself.

  • susanawalsh

    Hey, Mani, good to see you! Yes, I remember your story, and the last I heard, there was a nice guy that you were thinking might deserve a shot. So that's what I want to talk to you about. These guys who are interested you and you don't reciprocate? Why not?

    Those are most likely the guys worth getting to know! I know you've been attracted to frat guys, but you describe exactly why that's not the best strategy for finding a relationship. You need to think about who you're spending your time lusting after, and read my post about the 12 Step Douchebag Recovery Program. You're responding to guys with natural Game, but they're not relationship material. I urge you to think about what qualities you would really like in a BF and take another look at the guys who are interested in you. You're already driving them crazy, maybe that's where your future really lies.

  • Mani

    This is amazing! I hope I can adopt this mentality FULLY one day :) you seem like a strong woman who knows how to work it.

  • Mani

    Hi Aunt Sue!

    I don't recall telling you there was a guy interested in me, but I did mention I had been on dates and asked out a few times, but yes, I did turn them down eventually (in quite a bitchy way, which I am not proud of. I just cut them off.)

    I think there are actually two parts to these stories. A few of these guys were genuinely nice guys who I turned down because there was no attraction (I know…this is something I so have to work on.) They took me out on dates and texted me all the time, but I don't know if my standards were set way too high. The first was very sweet, but the physical attraction was lacking and he was a smoker (which is a huge turn-off for me.) He had a huge crush on me, but after continual rejection he just gave up, and has a girlfriend now.

    The other was sweet, but he was so insanely boring. And I do remember your saying about “dads vs. cads”, but trying to talk to this boy was like talking to a brick wall.

    These boys were nice, but I felt no chemistry. Do you think that, however, I am jus telling myself that I have no chemistry with them? Obviously one is off the market now, I think the other one hates me…I am so bad with handling confrontation.

    Some of the guys you are talking about are just plain aggressive, which turns me off completely! One guy knocked on my door every day, trying to get me to hang out with him and talk to him. However, he hinted at only wanting to have sex with me, which disgusted me. The other was plain annoying..it wasn't charming at all, how he was trying to get to know me. Invading my personal space, trying to get my number, out of nowhere. And yes, I lacked physical attraction in these guys too.

    I think I may be TOO focused on physical attraction, I do admit that. It's not something I like about myself, but it is natural for all humans to be this way. Do you firmly believe though, that you can end up with someone you can't even imagine getting intimate with right now? I am telling you, I have 0 attraction to these guys, and ALL of my guy friends for that matter. Getting to know them didn't make me fall in love with them. My standards for men aren't just “frat guys”, I have been attracted to all sorts of guys regardless of looks. However, I MUST be able to see myself at least holding hands with someone without getting the creeps…that is sort of my “test” to see if this could go anywhere. Maybe I'm just not that lucky right now.

    Is this bad of me?

    I will read your douchebag recovery program post! Thanks for the feedback.

  • Mani

    *I* am talking about, not you. haha.

  • AT

    Thanks Susan and Mani! I'm just glad to be able to share my own experiences through the years and if it helps someone, great! :-)

    One more thing that bears emphasizing–what Argov is basically saying is that you have to look for validation WITHIN YOURSELF, independent of someone else. When you tie your sense of self to having someone, that's when you keep making wrong decisions because you don't make choices based on what's good for you, you make choices based on what will keep someone around even when they're not worth it. This means knowing who you are, and knowing what you will and will not tolerate, whether you're alone or in a relationship.

    So whether or not you're with someone, don't stop learning, don't stop maximizing your potential, don't stop cultivating your own interests. You owe it to yourself, and it makes you a much more interesting person in the long run.

  • AT

    Mani, this is wonderful, and I'm so happy for you! You go, girl!!!

  • verie44

    I just wanted to say that there are two ways girls can game guys but sadly it's not really something you can do much about. This is pre-attraction game, as in, how to get guys interested in you in the first place to be able to start all these other great tips for getting them into relationships. They are:

    1. Be beautiful
    2. Be young

    Let's face it, you have to pass a minimum attraction standard for them to even bother talking to you in the first place. So really if you want to increase your pool of partners, start young or (if you are older) have that youthful energy / playfulness when you are interacting with people in everyday life. The second thing you can do is work out, wear flattering clothes & makeup, take care of yourself. I'm not necessarily against plastic surgery either if you feel it's something that will make you feel better about yourself, of course don't do it for the guy (although it will probably help in that arena).

    That's kind of it for women, which is sort of sad, but true.

  • Melissa

    I'm kind of elaborating a checklist based on this post for daily use ;) I think I’m doing fine regarding maintaining my independence – not canceling previous plans for him, letting him do the calling, etc- and especially in the 'fake it until you make it' part. But internally, I do feel disappointed when he does not call, even though I never demonstrate it. And I do ask him about his ex and listen enthusiastically when he talks about other girls. I had no idea this was a bad thing. I saw it as a way to get to know him better- but the point of refusing to compete with other girls makes so much sense.
    I also agree that this is an attitude to maintain for life. My parents have been married for 29 years and this is the way I’ve seen my mother conducting herself in her marriage since I can remember. Needless to say, my dad is mad about her.
    But even when you don’t have self-esteem issues, I think it’s still hard to become a genuine independent woman from within – not just pretending to be one. I’ve been single for long periods of time because I’d rather be alone than with some douche type. I have zero tolerance for disrespect. I’ve proven to myself and to others than I CAN be alone and have a very happy, very full life. But then comes a time, when you really start to feel lonely. After a while you start questioning yourself, you start wondering “what’s wrong with me?” and that’s when the self-esteem problems arise for the first time in your life. So this post – and the book, I just ordered it! – could not come in a better time in my life. Now I’m seeing this guy that I really like and I almost blew it because I considered demanding a relationship – way too soon. Thankfully I didn’t do it. Yes, I like him a lot and he shows a lot of potential, but he IS a virtual stranger still. Thanks so much for this post – and for your great advice, Susan- I’ll try to apply all of these rules wholeheartedly.

  • susanawalsh

    Mani, of course you shouldn't encourage someone who you feel no attraction for. It sounds like you need to handle them differently when you reject them, but that's another matter.

    You can't give a guy Game to make him more attractive. You can be open to meeting new people and forming new friendships, and you're bound to find someone cute along the way, but it can take awhile.

    Weaning yourself off of cads is just smart because they're a waste of time, and usually make you feel badly about yourself by the end. Remember, those guys get the most increase in status when they maximize the number of hookups and minimize commitment. Being a bitch with them will help a lot, mostly because you'll walk away early if you're not getting treated well.

    The nice guy from class who's not out to prove anything will require gentler treatment, haha, but that doesn't change anything that Argov recommends. You will always do well to maintain your self-respect and dignity.

  • susanawalsh

    verie44, this is the sad truth. A guy will either be attracted or not. This book is really about how to handle yourself once that attraction has been sparked. And let's face it, there are many fish in the sea, and beauty is somewhat subjective. Actually, these days the Cougars would tell you even youth is subjective.

    This is why I say there's no such thing as Girl Game. However, guys can and will be attracted to you if you feel good about yourself and it shows. Then your role becomes critically important.

  • susanawalsh

    Melissa, you are most welcome. I love your example about your parents – talk about seeing firsthand what works in real life! It sounds like they've modeled a great relationship for you, which has enabled you to demand the respect you deserve.

    Still, you raise a good point. A woman can do everything right according to this advice and find herself even more alone than before, because she has eliminated all of the unworthy men. Even when you know that is the right thing to do, life can get lonely and boring when you are disqualifying every guy who's interested. It's very easy to go back to wearing rose-colored glasses and think that perhaps you are the girl than can turn a bad boy around.

    It's very important to ride out that lonely period, because it's during that time that you are truly available for something great. If you're halfwaying it with some guy, and you're preoccupied, you're likely to miss out completely on the good guy who you were to busy to notice.

  • synthesis

    I once had a huge crush on a free-spirited, independent type of girl. She never gave me a straight answer when I asked to do something together. Very frustrating. I felt like I was being strung along because she liked the attention.

  • Anni

    I have a emotionally abusive sister. That obviously has not helped me to develop a healthy self-respect and I have always had problems with relationships. Only after I moved away from home 3 years ago, I have started to improve. Lucky people who have parents to show them a healthy example, unfortunately I have to learn the hard way. I still have a lot of work to do, but I really think I'm getting better. This blog has helped me a lot in understanding what is right and what is wrong.

  • susanawalsh

    This is a good point, synthesis! This post is addressed for women who tend to be too nice or accommodating with guys, and wind up shooting themselves in the foot in the process.

    However, there will always be girls who are manipulative and difficult just to keep guys invested. I think the lessons here about self-respect are directly applicable to guys in this case. If a woman is acting like a Player, walk away. You shouldn't tolerate that BS. If you ask a woman out and she won't give you a straight answer, she's playing games with you, and you shouldn't stand for it. I would just say, “I'm around, give me a call if you ever want to hang out.” And don't lose a minute of sleep over her.

  • Giraffe

    When do we get to stop scheming and start loving?

  • hambydammit

    You're right, verie, when it comes to social settings like bars. I'm thinking back to the last dozen or so women I can remember approaching, and duh… they were all young and attractive. However, there's still the “law of proximity.” Women who are not as young or attractive would benefit from finding a large, active, and semi-permanent social group. Men do get past the initial attraction of youth and beauty — sometimes really fast. I've stopped talking to the “alpha” female within three or four minutes before, because I decided I just didn't like her personality. It may not feel sexy to talk about it this way, but when guys get annoyed with the high maintenance hotties, they talk to the tier 2 girls rather than stand by themselves in a corner. (Of course, women who need to work out, or wear makeup, or whatever… yeah… do it. It can only help, and can move you from tier 2 to tier 1.)

    Dating is really hard on the ego. Trust me, I know. I'm a bald thirty-something guy with British teeth. But what most Tier-2 guys (looks-wise) do is recognize the reality of their situation and go after accessible girls. More importantly, they do everything they can to improve the other parts of their personality and life so that they stand the best chance of getting the hottie in spite of their physical deficiencies.

    It's even harder for women because men are SOOOO looks-dependent, but I've seen lots of guys with girls that made me wonder, “Isn't he playing beneath his level? ” But when you get to know them, you realize there's something else going on.

    Ok… I'm going to share a deep dark guy secret here. No hating on the messenger, please. When guys talk about their exes, or girls they've had short term flings with, there's an implicit understanding — if the girl is fat, or particularly unattractive, it means the guy got lots of blow jobs and probably anal sex, too. It's joked about a lot, but unattractive girls are expected to be more sexually adventurous and available. Which sucks, I know, because then they end up putting out for guys and then getting dumped. Over and over.

    It's not all about sex, though. When a girl is Tier-2, she just needs to get really good at something that will be valuable to a good number of men. Maybe she needs to be a really fantastic cook, or a wine expert, or something. Call it degrading if you must, but men date women because they GET SOMETHING out of it. Men want looks first and foremost, but beyond that, they want women who make their life better in some tangible way. Men are not stupid, and they can see the value of being with someone who may not be a ten, but has lots of other things to offer. (Also, women who know they're good at something are generally confident.. and confidence is sexy.)

  • dragnet

    This is basically the same advice mothers & grandmothers gave to their daughters generations ago—the Old Knowledge, if you will. And it was extremely effective back then as the value of women was high because most of them married at the height of their physical attractiveness (18-25), and sex was much more difficult to come by if you weren't married. I really don't think these kind of guidelines can be nearly as effective these days because of structural changes in the dating marketplace. Sure they will work here and there and for some women, but on balance…no.

    I don't think tips like these can be effective unless greater and greater numbers of women start adopting them. If this doesn't happen, then guys will just do what they've always done: wait out the “bitch” while doing someone easier on the side. If they don't just drop her altogether. In fact, that sort of sexual market arbitrage is fairly common among guys with Game and no morals. But it works because women have essentially commoditized themselves, empowered by their lust for the top 20% of guys and relieved of the traditional costs of sex (pregnancy, STIs, etc).

    If one women follows these tips, it won't matter. If a thousand follow them, ditto. Or even 100,000. What we need is sea change in the culture—highly unlikely because no one likes having their options closed off to them. The fact that the information in this article is new idish to so many young women is a really, really sad fact. They have no idea how far they've fallen, really.

    Just my $0.02.

  • Decoybetty

    I still have a problem with this type of behaviour being termed as “bitchy”. There is nothing bitchy about not devoting yourself to a man you've only been a few dates with. There is nothing bitchy about being independent or not tolerating disrespect. There is nothing bitchy about deciding that “being single” isn't synonymous with “being alone and turning into a sad cat lady.” There is nothing bitchy about trying to be accommodating but not rearranging your schedule on 4 minutes notice just to see a boy.

    Maybe it's just me. But this doesn't seem like earth shattering revelations here – it just seems like human decency – to yourself. My yoga teachers always talk about the biggest contribution you can make to the world is to live life the way you want to. Take responsibility for your actions and understand that only you control them. This isn't selfishness but actually sustaining a healthy person and giving the world exactly what you can. Most of the time I am all “shut up with your hippy dippy philosophy and let's down dog” but the point is – as I wrote about in my guest post here – no one wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't like him/herself. It's really important that if I see a situation I can say “this isn't right for me” whether it's the time he wants to go out to dinner. or the immediacy that he wants to get into my pants or his attitude towards my ridiculous eating habits.

  • http://danbrodribb.blogspot.com/ dan_brodribb

    “If one women follows these tips, it won't matter. If a thousand follow them, ditto. Or even 100,000. “

    I suspect it might matter to that one woman.

  • susanawalsh

    Anni, I'm so happy to hear from you, thank you. Self-esteem is something that is particularly difficult for women. Many women struggle with it, in fact I might even say that most do. The fact that you are aware of your issue and working to improve it is really important. It sounds like home is NOT a place where you should spend much time, if your sister is toxic to your well-being. If you haven't already seen a therapist about this issue, I'd recommend it, I'm a big believer. I sort of wish I could have a shrink live with me, for 24/7 guidance, haha.

  • susanawalsh

    Oh, boy, do I hear you! Thanks for leaving a comment, Giraffe. I will say that this book is not about scheming, it's really about self-improvement, much in the way that Game is for men.

    A lot of people use the term “combat dating” to describe the current environment, and I'd have to agree, it's a jungle out there. Both women and men need to be prepared and trained to make out OK.

  • susanawalsh

    I'll agree that you're not going to reform a cad by developing and demonstrating self-respect. That's not the goal. The goal is to stand up for yourself from the beginning, so that the cad moves along pronto to easier prey. Meanwhile, you're standing there with your dignity intact. There is enormous value in this for women. It also prevents them from becoming damaged, jaded and used by men who don't care about their well-being.

    A man who is interested in finding a woman for a relationship (and they are out there) will prefer a woman who is independent rather than needy. These guidelines are not about bitching up a storm, the title of the book notwithstanding. They're not about giving guys constant shit tests.

    They're about recognizing when a guy is offering something with no value, and having the strength to pass. Yes, women may spend time in the desert behaving this way, but her chances of coming out of her single years whole and with a worthy partner are much better this way.

    It's like you said, the Old Knowledge. Which was pretty much summed up as: Close your legs. That's no longer realistic, but we need to get a whole lot more selective (our nature-given right, after all) than we've been in recent years.

  • susanawalsh

    D, I'm glad you mentioned your guest post, because I was thinking of it as I was reading. Here's the link for anyone who is interested:

    You're a Lot More Than Your Relationship Status
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/11/23/girlta

    Everything you say here is 100% true, and I wish all of us had your strong and healthy sense of self. It's something that many women struggle with and continue to develop.

    Re the word bitch, yeah, that's a bit troublesome. Honestly, though, she uses it as a positive term throughout the book, so I think we need to take her at her word on that one.

  • bblove

    “The main problem with books like this is that it's one thing to tell someone with low self-esteem to respect themselves; it is quite another to actually go out there and do so.”

    I guess I cannot get over the fact that “Why Men Love Bitches” is the favorite book (perhaps only book) of my ex-roommate and ex-best friend post-college who bedded half the men in Scottsdale, then moved on to the self-esteem-filled world of nude modeling on the Internet and in the pages of Penthouse, Easy Rider Magazine, etc … She always liked to say she was just fucking these guys, but I reminded her, They are ALWAYS fucking you.

    Classic daddy issues, looking for validation through sex and self-worth through making money. I wonder, how many Gucci purses does it take to forget that you're spread-eagle on the Internet. But on the other hand she's self-made (can you call it that). I still can't decide if she's powerful and Argov's “bitch” in some way or not.

    I can't comment too much on the book otherwise. I am a natural “bitch” and have always been. But I like this idea: Anne Frank said “I keep on trying to find a way of becoming what I would so like to be, and could be, if there weren’t any other people living in the world. ” I do all the Argov suggestions — workout, stay independent, have my own interests — but I don't do them for any guy. And I haven't been this happy with me ever, so that opens my world to other great people. I know it isn't always that easy, but then again, sometimes it is.

  • collegegirl1

    Hi, I've always been insecure, thinking I couldn't attract guys, but lately I have not had a problem attracting cute guys and it's increased my self-esteem. What has lowered it though (which kinda makes it even) is that the guys I meet don't seem to want to be in a relationship with me. Granted, it scares me but I'm continually attracted to “frat guys” or guys who I KNOW I'd never want to be in an LTR with. I always say I just want to “have fun” but in all honestly, in the end I'd want a relationship. I know I should hold out for better guys but it gets hard when you're at a party, this cute guy is pursuing you, and of course you want to hook up (make out). It's hard because you're wasting your time “having fun” but then again, not meeting a genuinely good guy because maybe that good guy is seeing you hook up with another guy and thinks that's all you want. I've had a really hard time with this, because I love talking to cute guys and getting the attention, but…I don't know, I believe I still don't have the greatest self esteem because I'm not meeting the “right guy”…ever. And it sickens me because cute guys who I believe have had no interest in me in the past suddenly are interested when they see me hooking up with their close friend. I want to believe they like me for me..but guys just find you more attractive that way (and maybe it's the reason I am getting attention)…like another problem I have is that if I WASNT hooking up with these guys they wouldn't be interested in me in the first place.

    I hope this makes sense!….

  • verie44

    I understand you, hamby, and I agree with what you're saying. You said “I've stopped talking to the “alpha” female within three or four minutes before, because I decided I just didn't like her personality” but honestly, if you did like her personality and she was interested in you, would you even for a second look at any of the tier 2 girls? No, I think not.

    And I think you're probably less superficial than a lot of guys losing interest when someone has a bad personality — I say this because I get hit on a lot but even when I'm uninterested or boring (giving one word answers), guys still seem to want to hang out with me / are still interested even though my personality (to them) absolutely sucks.

  • verie44

    I just want to say here too though that there is such a thing as being too much of a bitch. Yes, please respect yourselves and follow all of this advice. But do it nicely, if you can. You don't have to say, “Oh no you didn't just talk about how hot that girl was in front of me!” or whatever. That makes guys think you are just angry and crazy. The key is to call them on their bullshit in a calm, collected way that is still feminine. If you go all aggressive on them, guys take that as a challenge to their masculinity and will be all aggressive back.

    All you have to say is “I feel disrespected when you do that in front of me, I wouldn't talk about how hot Brad Pitt is in front of you” (or whatever their self esteem issue is). That's more of a girly way of dealing with it. I've definitely had to tone myself down from the feminist, girl powerish way I was raised to being more calm & “girly” if you will.

    I used to work in finance where the way to get respect was to act like a man and I'm sure some of the women reading this work in similarly male-dominated fields. It's hard to switch that off when you're with a guy (yet another way women have a harder role in a relationship) but you really have to. Guys like girls, not guys with boobs and a vagina.

  • verie44

    I hate to tell you this, but guys (ESPECIALLY in college) are not all that selective when it comes to hooking up. You shouldn't derive your self-esteem from which boys like you, in all honesty. Boys in college like to sleep with as many girls as possible, it's quantity over quality for the 20% alpha assholes I'm fairly sure you're talking about in your post (read Susan's latest post about how these boys really think in regard to the girls they're sleeping with). So these cute boys wanting to sleep with you? They'd probably sleep with the entire campus if they could.

    The guys who used to not be interested in you but now are because you're hooking up with their friends? Um, they're now interested because they've heard you hook up and they potentially might be able to hook up with you.

    Please start holding out for the nice guys who deserve your attention or you'll end up used, bitter, and broken by these alpha assholes who don't give a shit about you.

  • verie44

    AT, can you be more specific about which things you are a bitch about in daily life or situations you've been in? Ie: what kinds of BS don't you put up with and what exactly do you say when it happens/how do you deal with it?

  • AT

    Verie, the ex who found me on FB wouldn't stand up to his mother for me when she was badmouthing me out of some prejudice because I'm Chinese. First couple of times it happened I wanted to talk to her about it, but he said he'd be the one address it, but never did. Third time? Out he went.

    The first ex I talked about wanted me to drop my law studies so I could move in with him in L.A. I said, no, this is my goal, my dream, and if you can't respect that, I'm out. And he wasn't offering marriage at all–he just felt lonely there and said I needed to take care of him if I loved him. I was more than willing to move there to be with him once I was done, but he wouldn't have it–kept saying he needed me to take care of him like a good woman should (translated–cook, wash, clean for him, like a typical Filipina wife) and kept trying to emotionally blackmail me about it. And it wasn't as if he didn't come home to Manila regularly, considering his parents still lived here–so it wasn't really a strictly long distance relationship. What I saw was that he would have me quit my dreams just so I could be at his beck and call. Dump.

    With my hubby, when we were just starting to go out, we had this argument in the car where he yelled at me and slammed his hands on the steering wheel. I said, pull over and let's finish this. Then I went down from the car, left him and wouldn't talk to him for more than a week. When he finally managed to contact me, he apologized profusely. I said very quietly (I notice men are apt to listen more when you talk calmly, without nagging), “You yell at me one more time and that's the last time you'll see me.”

    Don't get me wrong, we still have arguments (what marriage doesn't?) that can sometimes get heated, but he's never yelled at me again. Ever. (And neither do I yell at him) Not in the 15 years we've been together.

  • AT

    This is very true. I count myself as a feminist in that I subscribe to women having equal rights as men do, but one cardinal rule that I've always applied in my relationships is this–your man needs to feel like THE man in your relationship. That means you don't put him down, you don't undermine his masculinity, you don't emasculate him, and most importantly, you RESPECT him. I'm never abrasive when dealing with my partner, nor with other people. Even though I'm a lawyer (talk about a male dominated field, especially here), I'd never insist on having the last word, and when my husband is right, I'll admit it and say so (and he does the same). I defer to him as the head of the family (which is still an integral part of our culture) by making sure I run all important decisions by him, but at the same time, he knows I'm no pushover, so he would never think of making unreasonable impositions.

    I do things for him uber feminists might have conniptions over–cooking him gourmet meals (he's so into my cooking that, given a choice between having dinner out with business colleagues after a meeting and coming home to eat–9 times out of 10, he comes home), wearing dresses (he loves me in them) and making sure all his stuff is clean and organized.

    In return, he gives me wonderful massages, looks after the boys when he knows I need a “mommy break” (just had a major “mommy break” last year when I went off to Europe for 18 days with my 3 girlfriends–and he was fine with staying home with the boys), watches girlie flicks with me (though, after Julie and Julia he's now craving beef bourgignon, which I will make for him this weekend), watches over me when I'm sick, and suffers my constant dings to the car with good humor.

    When our eldest was born with special needs, we both realized I needed to quit law practice so I could be there for our son full-time. Since he handled the family business, he couldn't quit it, and I understood. Now that our eldest is older and mainstreamed wonderfully and doesn't quite need me as much, he fully supports my decision to go back and take up my Masters and ease back into practice.

    Bottom line? I found me a good man, and I make sure he knows how much I appreciate him, and vice versa. Being a bitch doesn't mean you're constantly pushing your weight around–it simply means you know your worth, and you make sure he knows it, too.

  • susanawalsh

    bblove, you say a number of interesting things here.

    First of all, OMG! Having a BFF turn into a porn model has got to be a VERY bizarre experience. She sounds like a hot mess, allright. I will say that Argov's book seems to have had little to no effect on her, because it's all about self-respect and she clearly never had any. Sad.

    She always liked to say she was just fucking these guys, but I reminded her, They are ALWAYS fucking you.

    I'm inclined to agree with this. It is the RARE woman who can carry on in this way, and when you find her, she's likely to be a very damaged soul, incapable of the emotional bonding that she is biologically designed to experience. As women we lie to ourselves thinking we can go crazy this way without paying a price at some point. There is almost always fallout, often in the form of even lower self-esteem.

    I love that Anne Frank quote – I'd forgotten that.

    A woman cannot and should not develop herself for any guy. That's building a house of cards. Argov's point, and I agree with it, is that you have to BE this woman, this whole person in order to hold your own in a relationship. Otherwise, you're easy prey, a barely moving target.

    And I haven't been this happy with me ever, so that opens my world to other great people.

    Love this. Yes, I have no doubt that the way you feel about yourself radiates outward and draws people in. People who have something real to share. And if it draws in douchebags as well, you're well armed to spot and reject them.

  • susanawalsh

    It makes more sense than you know. It's a perfect illustration of why women are miserable in college, and why DBs get all the girls. Of course it feels validating to get attention from cute guys. And hope springs eternal – we like to think we are the girl that can make them want to be in a relationship. As you know, more often than not, guys like this make fools of us.

    It's hard because you're wasting your time “having fun” but then again, not meeting a genuinely good guy because maybe that good guy is seeing you hook up with another guy and thinks that's all you want.

    This is the worst thing – the opportunity cost. It's what you're missing, but you don't even know it. If you want to be a girlfriend to a good guy, you must act like a girl that a good guy wants to spend time with. And you must be open to meeting good guys – which means getting your tushy off Frat Row, at least where your heart is concerned.

    Look, I don't think making out at a party is such a big deal. But I'd be careful – if you want to be viewed as dating material by ANYONE, you'll need to keep your hookups right there – no BJs or NSA sex.

    Just saying.

  • susanawalsh

    verie44, you're a mind reader! I'm working on my next post, which is specifically about how to talk to guys without getting all emotional, in a way that they can understand. Argov says this, but it's easy to lose it in all the talk of standing up for oneself.

    The way you approach a guy, with calm certainty, no drama, and no aggression, will make an enormous difference in how, or even whether, you get your point across.

  • susanawalsh

    Wow, this is it right here. What every sane woman wants in a relationship.

    It is really important for young women to understand that the sexes can be equal without being the same. The differences between the sexes are crucial to attraction and compatibility in a relationship. I would characterize my own marriage in a similar way – I'm as educated as my husband is, and as capable. But I tend to do more of the “women's work,” and he tends to take charge of guy stuff. It works.

  • collegegirl1

    OMG I can't wait for your next post, Susana. Honestly it is exactly what I need, because I have always been one to stand up for myself and speak my mind, but when I do guys think I'm “drama.” It's like I have to be this meek, submissive girl around them and I don't LIKE that or WANT that. I want guys to be able to listen to me and hear what I have to say without thinking I'm a bitch.

  • Rebekah

    “Ok… I'm going to share a deep dark guy secret here. No hating on the messenger, please. When guys talk about their exes, or girls they've had short term flings with, there's an implicit understanding — if the girl is fat, or particularly unattractive, it means the guy got lots of blow jobs and probably anal sex, too. It's joked about a lot, but unattractive girls are expected to be more sexually adventurous and available. Which sucks, I know, because then they end up putting out for guys and then getting dumped. Over and over.”

    ^^ This from Hamby explain a WHOLE lot in my past two “relationships”. It explains why I am the girl they only want to have sex with. Guess men expect that a girl who has a few extra pounds will just thank her lucky stars that someone wants to get naked with them.

  • susanawalsh

    It is a very important skill, especially since nowadays guys are very prone to saying a girl is crazy or “psycho” every time they called out for bad behavior. I'll give you a clue – like AT said, it's about speaking in a very soft voice.

  • susanawalsh

    Ouch, yeah that shared secret was definitely cringeworthy. However, Rebehak, not so fast. No way are you that girl!

    Most women are women that men only want to have sex with, because most men prefer no-strings sex to making a commitment. Believe me, women of all shapes and sizes are singing the exact same blues.

  • hambydammit

    Yes, verie. You're absolutely right. I'm not going to pretend I've never taken the hot girl home just because she was willing and hot, but for the most part, yeah, I think I probably am less superficial than a lot of guys in that sense. (I'm also older than a lot of guys in this little college town, so that might be a big part of it. I'm not really trying to give myself a pat on the back.)

    And you're also right, all things being equal, I'm picking the hotter of two women, and even with things being unequal, I'll pick the hot girl who's a shitty cook over the average girl who's a great cook, assuming the hot girl is interesting. (Actually, if I was really smart, I'd bring out one of my beta friends to snag the great cook so I could eat her cooking without dating her.)

    With the caveat that I have a higher sex drive than most men (scary, eh?) I have dated less attractive girls simply because they got off (or at least said they did) on giving blow jobs, or would have sex three times a day. So… I guess I'm saying that sex is probably the best bet for the tier two girls, but they have to do something to get to that point with some self-respect. That is, if a “5″ just comes up to me and says, “Hey, I'm horny, let's fuck,” I might do it, but I wouldn't think of her as relationship material. But the girl I've known for a while as a friend who confesses to me that she likes sex three times a day and gives great head… well, I might consider her as potential relationship material then.

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  • collegeboy

    @Susan
    Come on. Grow up.

    This is good advice for men to use to attract women, not the other way around.

    If a man is higher social status than you, he can do whatever he wants. If you don’t like it he will find someone who does. I had a girlfriend who did pretty much everything you said(she never really gave in), she wasn’t beautiful but she was good enough. And if any girlfriend ever loved me it was her (I feel bad that I didn’t know how to distinguish who my true friends are, when they are so few, She didn’t lie to me and even during the break up she was noble, she said an insult but I could tell she didn’t mean it, it didn’t make a difference girls still liked me). I wanted to lose my virginity, she didn’t want to do me the favor. I hit on her sister and then dumped her for one of her friends that was very hot (over my league, She was the hottest woman I have ever dated, the beta male who introduced me was trying to bed her and couldn’t because he didn’t meet her social status requirements). After I was dumped by the hot girl, a friend of the hot girl wanted to date me and the ex girlfriend wanted to get back with me (after all I did). I didn’t get back with her because I felt that she would never forgive me, for what I had done (I feared she would get revenge). While I feel bad about all this, it was the greatest learning experience and experience of my life. The hot girl dumped me because her brother/parents found out I was still talking to my ex-girlfriend. The good girlfriend even told me that I got allot of attention because of her and she was willing to put up with that after the hot girl dumped me (so that I can get other girls, her words).

    Thanks to me actually experiencing a hot girl and talking to lots of girls. I came to the conclusion that I want love, not lust (I know allot women’s dirty laundry, thanks to girlfriends I had).

    What is love? mutual trust, exchange of favors, and Money (this is blunt).

    Why is power important? how can I be liable for a relationship when I have no control over it. Marriage is socialism, because you have to share and co-operate. I need control inorder to insure survival. Its also important to note that individualism has no place in marriage, otherwise why get married. I can’t cancel my financial responsibilities, why should the other party cancel his/her participation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @collegeboy
      Wow, what a story! You make a strong point, but I wonder – do women have any leverage whatsoever? What’s the best way for a woman to avoid the fate of your good girlfriend?

  • collegeboy

    @Susan (about feminism)

    We live in such an individualistic culture that I think women are being misguided (by feminism and capitalists). Love is about sharing and co-operating, not fighting (socialism traits). Individualism (me first policy)has no place in love. However power is necessary, to insure co-operation or motivation toward common goals, like survival and raising children (not having children, birth control is a must). We can’t compete with everyone it must be some we compete, with others we co-operate. Dating market like we are talking of is completely capitalistic (men and women are competing)and women are ruthless and brutal in this aspect of life (the only time they are nice is when they no longer have any power of others).

    The best examples I can think of are:

    The daddy figure: protects, provides(not under individualism), controls.

    The mommy figure: protects, provides, controls.

    If I take the mommy figure, I find a woman who is more organized, disciplined, and intelligent than me (controlling is a given). Arrogance is really bad.

    If I take the daddy figure, I can find the prettiest woman available, and their are candidates waiting. I have to become successful, disciplined, self motivated, and lead by example. (dominant women are scary).

    I’m still a kid out of college so I’m still starting out. The daddy figure is being discouraged by feminism (I like you because your Idealistic and want a better world, but some realism is desperately needed), laws and TV, so good men are getting suckered (my father 2 divorces, he is the best father anyone can have(i owe almost all of my success to him), pretty women love him, because of this genuine father figure). My father actually used to avoid pretty women, because he is afraid of being seen as less, even though he is a high achiever. He even gets hit on today and he is old, now.

  • collegeboy

    I meant to say this in the above comment. I like feminism, not necessary Susan’s version of feminism. I had a 2 teachers that were hardcore feminist so I got to know you.

    @collegeboy (I like feminism because it is Idealistic and wants a better world, but some realism is desperately needed).

  • Stephenie Rowling

    (I like feminism because it is Idealistic and wants a better world, but some realism is desperately needed).

    I used to like feminism but the problem is that feminism like communism, made the world a better place in theory, in practice it was a disaster.
    I think feminism results on society as off now shows that is in seriously need of a reform at best and total dismantling at worst, YMMV.

  • collegeboy

    @Stephenie Rowling

    The most motivated individuals tend to be on the extremes. I think that the key to all this is balance. We can’t be 100% capitalistic or !00% socialistic, neither would work by its self. It has to be somewhere in the middle.

    Communism, gives us survival but no freedom. Its all about obligations and less reward. Its boring, especially for men who like risk taking for reward.

    Do you guys know the extreme of Capitalism? Its called Fascism (plutocracy is when government works for the super rich at the expense of the working class).

    Fascism, is enforce by dictatorial military force, you still don’t have freedom or democracy. And it is the private sector, not government that controls people. A few will win at the expense of the many.

    Watch Capitalism: A love story (2009) if you wish to know more. or just read the citibank plutocracy memo, instead.

  • collegeboy

    @Susan:Wow, what a story! You make a strong point, but I wonder – do women have any leverage whatsoever? What’s the best way for a woman to avoid the fate of your good girlfriend?

    women look for men with power (social, money, etc..) and immature women look for men who seem unobtainable in addition (married, chased by many women,have their sexual needs met, etc..). People with power can abuse their power(this why we don’t want dictators anymore). They can demand chastity/beauty and then sleep around with others. They can give you hell, just for personal amusement, if they so wish.

    Power is given by others to an individual. So the power that alpha men or women have is given by others to them.

    If you seek a man with higher social status understand what that man wants. It may just be sex, it may be companionship (in that case mutual understanding, trust, etc.. are important), or love (exchange of favors).

    I once read about a man who was bored with this girlfriend. He was engaged and didn’t find her attractive. If she would have been more bitchy and aggressive, she might have kept him. As for the guy, I think he is an idiot, he obviously wants sex (variety, thrill seeking) more than companionship. He will chase women who are the equivalent of alpha males. They will give him hell.

    Its also important to consider the different life stages. Men might not be ready for marriage. So they are waiting, out until they are ready. So you might want to keep them on your facebook friends list until they are finally done playing the field and decide to settle down.

  • collegeboy

    So the key is to get to know attractive men (money, looks, etc..). They are looking for different things, at different times. it may just be sex, at the moment. And you won’t convince them otherwise, until they are ready for a real relationship and marriage (they might not be able to find anyone who they believe loves them, so you have a better chance of them settling for you, on your terms, when they are finally ready). So you need keep them on your contacts list and check up on them after some time.

    What beta males think:
    They are pissed off. The train of thought they didn’t get any sex when they were young. Alpha males did, tons of it (it seems like the attractive women chase a few men, for no strings sex). Women didn’t want to have sex with them when they were young, but they do want beta males money (marriage/security) when women are old. The only other thing is that marriage is a risky proposition, they are looking for signs that you might cause them trouble(parents/religion might tell them avoid lose women, etc.. not all of their information is accurate so it varies from man to man, so we doubt our own judgement).

  • collegeboy

    @Susan
    (this is very long because I didni’t put much thought I’m just stating my observations,but this is what hookingupsmart is all about and I do think its helpful for marriage). This is good advice for pissed off men also.

    I have two individuals in my family that would be the equivalent of the fairy tale marriage you probably want. I know what happened (its true, but I don’t know how many opportunities like this exist). This is a good example of what can happen and what personalities, but I wouldn’t consider it to be the only way to achieve success for both men and women. The father and mother(with daughter) were divorced and they live far way from each other. There was no fight over custody.

    The girl is not very beautiful (she’s average and completely normal) and she married a man who was attractive tall, white, blue eyes, sharp mind, educated,excellent moral character, makes 180-220k a year today. The guy is very friendly, he definitely is very likable (knows how to please others ego), he gives off a father figure, although he never had children, he said he was unable to do so. (he is also republican, but not individualist with the girl. treats her like her daughter literally and paid allot of medical expenses for preexisting conditions, he knew the girl’s medical condition when he began dating her, they were actually dating for a very long time (3yrs or so) until the girl’s father demanded that they get married or break up)

    The girl had perfect grades in college, she was very hard working as she worked while going to school. The prince met her when the girl was going to college. My understanding is that he wasn’t making as much money as he is making today, but he showed a promising future, the girl questioned whether she should marry him as he was much older than her (like 12-15 yrs, never married) . The girl had a single mother, who didn’t really help her that much through college (the mother had a golddigger mentality, however the young girl had understood her fathers opinion of bad women and what could go wrong). In fact she didn’t even fix her self up with make up or good clothing,etc as she didn’t have the money, to do so and was too busy working and studying.

    The girl had allot of friends, but they are practically just girls, even today. The girl first lived with her father and later with her mother. She had like one bad boy, boyfriend, that the father knew of. She wasn’t a virgin when she married, but she didn’t sleep around either (she married like in her early 30′s).

    The girl has an excellent moral character. She is definitely someone you can trust not to do you harm. She is also assertive, she bosses her prince around, when her father advices her to do so, however she isn’t dominant. In fact she is a daddy’s girl, her father has a very strong influence in what she does. If she wants to do something that she considers unethical, she calls her father and tells him her ethical dilemma to ask for approval, which she usually gets so long as the situation calls for that action and she makes her decision trying very hard not to compromise her good moral character. The father doesn’t even worry, as he knows that his opinions of what women should not do are so ingrained in her that she is unlikely to be unethical or of bad moral character (her father never even intended to influence her this much, the girl calls on her own free will to ask for advise). Both the father and the girl are non religious. The prince is religious and he checked the family and a little of the girls background to verify good moral character. (the mother wasn’t a very good example, but not a particularly horrible example).

    The prince, had very attractive girls chasing him at his wedding, this even worried the father, as they had a very attractive woman living with them for a period of a couple of days during the wedding, the father was worried about the temptation, that was presented to the prince. My understanding is that the prince was unfaded by the attractive women, hitting on him.

    Moral of the story for men:
    I’m sure this guy had a little fun on the side before getting married and he was good looking enough to get very attractive women, in addition to being a hard worker and winner. He was definitely very religious, as a young man, but that doesn’t translate into chastity. He definitely doesn’t like dominant women, the girl was submissive to a father figure, but she did demanded to be treated with fairness. This guy had had some beautiful women in his past, but he understood that beautiful women aren’t necessarily the best for marriage, as they might not have good moral character. Maybe he didn’t want a woman with more social status than him, so that he wouldn’t have to worry about losing this womans love. He was definitely looking for someone to love and someone to love him back, sex appeal was not what he was looking for. The prince waited a good while before getting married, maybe he wanted to exhaust his desire for lust and he didn’t have children, I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but I might see this as beneficial, if bad women really piss you off.

    Moral of the story for women: You have to be at the right time and at the right place, and you have to take a risky bet on a possibly uncertain future to find a man like that. However the man behaved like a beta male, clearly having the looks and potential for success of an alpha male. He wanted to settle down and he didn’t choose the very attractive women that were courting him. He also waited a good while to settle down, which might mean that he probably slept around, got bored and looked to settle. He obviously knew what he wanted, but I’m sure he sampled the alternatives, to come to that conclusion. The fact that the girl had a medical condition from birth, might have actually brought out the father like qualities in this prince. Obviously he was looking for someone he could trust and absolutely no bull shit. The girl understood what man/father with a good moral character would want and she became that and looked for a man with good moral character. I can tell you for sure that this girl is not a golddigger and she married a golddiggers dream man. She isn’t beautiful, she average, she isn’t even white.

  • collegeboy

    The couple in the above example, has been married for over 15years and people say that its like their still dating, its that good. It might be because they didn’t have children and they do have money. I don’t know. I’m just stating my observations, I haven’t fully analyzed things. But I know that this prince is very intelligent, actually too intelligent. So I’m trying to learn from his personal life decisions.

  • collegeboy

    @Susan: Women need to learn that becoming dependent and committed too soon signals low value and will similarly drive a man’s attraction through the floor. Or up into the hills.

    The above comment is incorrect.

    I have had women (strangers also) literally throw themselves at me, for a chance at a relationship (I’m approachable, so no woman gets emotionally hurt).

    And remember this is just the initial courting phase, it doesn’t mean you are a loose woman.

    The women who chose me for a relationship and make it openly known are absolutely awesome, because they seem to have answered some of the compatibility questions to themselves.

    Allot of the girls who did this, ended up getting to know me, so as far as the approach is concerned it worked. Did it make me think differently of them, it speed-ed up things, there was no question of their intentions, it was immediately lets get to know each other phase and lots of laughs. (the power relationship is initially on the guy, but this becomes less relevant as the relationship progresses)

    [related but diff topic- low self esteem women don't chase men]
    In fact. I reasoned that men are biologically programmed to seek weak/submissive and beautiful women. Its the Master/slave relationship I talked about elsewhere(How would the submissive person think. How would the dominant person think. There are differences of opinion.)

    If government weren’t getting in the way, I would want a beautiful woman with low self esteem. They are so wonderful and agreeable (perfect companion). It doesn’t take allot to make them happy (after their ex boyfriend softens them up) and they don’t give me very much trouble. I absolutely love to meet women like that, you can actually be nice to them, without appearing like your weak.
    [End Extra]

  • collegeboy

    @Susan

    Comment: I reasoned that men are biologically programmed to seek weak/submissive and beautiful women.

    The comment above needs clarification. it is both beautiful and submissive, in order to be attractive.

    Corrected: In Fact. I reasoned that men are biologically programmed to seek women who are submissive and beautiful (both not one or the other).

    I knew an alpha male and talked to his girls (i knew his brother, we looked at his phone list) and his women fit this description.

    I also have seen men who I reasoned to be alpha males (when they were younger) and their wifes fit this description. They need to protect their wifes, because they are usually pissed, but then again did the girl marry the good boy beta or the successful bad boy alpha.

  • collegeboy

    @Susan
    Alpha males (real deal with looks and money) have nothing to do with beautiful women that feel powerless (low self esteem). I went off topic, big time.

    These women are attractive because they are humble, agreeable, appreciative, approachable, and incredibly beautiful.

    I just tended to notice that attractive males with money, who have allot of other options tend to get girlfriends that fit this description(attractive son of doctors, attractive men with lots of options, etc..). Its like an irony description, but women like these do exist (its like a girl that’s worthy of princess status but without behaving like a princess).

    They typically put up (past tense) with allot of hell from their chosen men, if the guy left them. Or they are married to a guy that is obviously doing allot to make them really mad, yet they prefer to stay married, but that doesn’t mean they are not capable of revenge sex. I have seen a woman that fits this description seeking for other suitable husbands, because she was very upset about her man (she does all the dirty work in the house and business, its amazing, I wouldn’t do the stuff she does, she is one hell of a catch). And everyone says this woman is like so so good to her husband for putting up with so much crap. Its unbelievable what she does, she works really hard, is educated. The guy has little education, but makes a reasonable living (because of parents money). He gives her some good ego put downs and she gives him some also, but its clear that the guy wins the power struggle, as she hasn’t found a suitable replacement and she doesn’t even hide that she looking to her man, (because he has a mistress). They have been married for over 20 years. She was very beautiful and she still retains much of her beauty. Her boy came out a retard and her daughter came out beautiful and is economically well off (I don’t know if this has to do with the guy having obtained a mistress).

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  • Liz

    Why Men Love Bitches? So the “nice guy problem” isn’t gender-specific? People in general think if someone is too caring then they must be a loser and needy? And if a woman sleeps with a man early on, he might think she doesn’t value herself as a result? This is the female equivalent of the nice guy problem, is it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Precisely. None of us wants to be handed respect or affection we haven’t earned.

  • Shadow K

    If this is how american women think they should behave to get a men, no wonder so many american men are looking abroad for a bride.

    This rules book thing is a men worst nightmare. I don’t now any guy who would be interrested by a girl like that. And the bitches, behave like that with men they consider not attractive, but as soon as they encounter the type of men they like they turn into the most needy and submissive girls you can imagine. In fact these are the most insecure girls who need a though secure guy. And when they find one they act like slave with him. HE will never she her bitch side.
    If an average looking women try to be a bitch well she gonna stay single for a long time or only meet the unfaithful time who has nothing else to do in is life than go after a girl.
    Also, you women are attracted to the same type of guys. I mean ALL of you. SO, a men like won’t have time to play you “hard-to-get” game and he has a long list of girl waiting to date him. And guess who he is going to go for ? the bitch, (who didn’t act like a bitch with him), but other average looking girl did thinking that how the bitch did and thus, this bloke must dig bitches..

    Also, yes, men like challenges…. IN LIFE you dummies ! the last thing a busy man, an achiever, someone who want to make something with his life want is a challenging relationship. in a relationship the women is part of what in his mind is HOME. A place to rest… if he can’t see that with you… then game over.. or, he will dump you as soon as a submissive bitch shows up.

    1. A (high status) man, and men in general don’t care that you “have a life”, or how much you make, how successful you are, you idiot, he wants to be YOUR life, he wants you to be his HOME. What kind of life a bitch has, or a bimbo ? NONE, zero, nada. She hot and available (to the right guy). That’s about it.

  • http://www.peepgame.net PeepGameDotNet

    Interesting logic. I just wonder why a woman who knows what she wants and who will accept nothing less than that is a B***h! I write about this subject daily so this is of great interest to me.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    This may explain something that had confused me before.

    About a year ago, I had dated a very handsome guy with a great personality. He seemed very promising. We stayed in touch via phone, since we lived in different cities. At one point he said that something I did drove him nuts…the fact that I never interrogated him. He said, in so many words, that he took that as lack of interest.

    After that, the calls would stop, then he would resurface every couple of months, expecting me to be mad at him. I was never very good at playing the stereotypical attitudinal black woman role, so I told him that it was good to hear from him, and that it would be nice if he were more consistent.

    That didn’t change things, and I ended up de-friending him in Facebook and deleting his number. I just felt like I was spinning my wheels.

    Could he have perceived my behavior as lack of self-respect?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Royale

      Could he have perceived my behavior as lack of self-respect?

      IDK, I think you had it right the first time. It sounds like he was conditioned to experience interest and/or loyalty as demanding female behavior.

      I was once seeing a guy from work, and it was not known. So when there were work parties or functions we generally mingled mostly with other people. At someone’s going away party he was flirting shamelessly with all the other women in the office. I ignored it and left without speaking to him. The next day he approached me with a sly grin. “Aren’t you going to yell at me?” I calmly stated that I didn’t see the point in that. He had clearly demonstrated that his actions were not consistent with his words. I was disappointed but had no interest in arguing and was prepared to move on. He was dumbfounded. He said, “But, but….every woman I’ve ever been with has yelled at me! I guess you don’t care either way!” He had actually misbehaved to test my “loyalty,” I suppose, but that backfired. I was only 21, but even then I had no time for foolish games.

  • Michelle

    I lol’d at the comment about only fat or “ugly” girls liking to give blow jobs or have sex. Typical coming a man, especially an American male, with our prudish mores. Trust me, plenty of “hot” women (beauty is subjective, but you know what I mean) love sex and like to give blow jobs, too…if they are really into a guy! How idiotic to think otherwise!

  • Michelle

    Also, why is most dating advice geared toward an end goal of getting married? Not all of us want to get married! It’s 2012, not 1951!

  • MM

    Believe and live by this garbage and you will end up alone, old and lonely. Life is way short for games or the mundane. Just remember the rule, do into others as you would have them onto you.
    Treat and live one another as you would yourself.
    Have integrity, loyalty, honesty, and love. Speak the truth at all cost.

  • Tom Wilis

    “Women are more selective than men when it comes to mating. Because they [theoretically] risk pregnancy with each sexual encounter, they must choose carefully… However, men are not too choosy”

    Actually they ARE! That’s why you women will spend huge amounts of money on improving your looks. It’s not just men paying for drinks, women are paying for looks from men. The hot (fun) girl does get farrrr more attention and you would probably incorporate this into your theory on men if you could actually compete. But I doubt that. You also forget to mention that women have like no reproductive value past 40…

    Your assumption is faulty because you think women bare a huge burden for sex with the “wrong guy”, not necessarily. Sometimes others in society or forced to take the tab, or there are even others who will worry for women. Also, seeing how a good father is optimal men are designed to be good fathers and commited, and that isn’t an on.and off switch based on opportunism. So please, stop feeding junk that has nothing to do with reality. If what you said was true women would not be initiating MOST divorces.