I Hate Math, Especially on College Campuses

February 8, 2010

A Chapel Hill Harem

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

Albert Einstein

Thanks to several readers who sent a link to an article in yesterday’s New York Times Styles section:

The New Math On Campus


Chapel Hill, NC is a great college town. It’s got a vibrant campus and lots of restaurants, bars, coffee houses etc. There’s a very active Greek scene. Times reporter Alex Williams went out one night recently to check out the scene and was struck by the lack of young men. Everywhere he turned attractive coeds were decked out in cute outfits, hair and makeup, but they had only each other to admire their efforts.

In some ways, it’s the usual depressing fare, but I actually felt encouraged reading this troubling account of the social scene at UNC – Chapel Hill, one of the finest universities in the country. After years in which the mainstream media has refused to even acknowledge the existence of hookup culture (for fear of angering sex-positive feminists), it appears as if enough cultural and demographic indicators are signaling trouble that the current sociosexual environment can no longer be ignored.

The Root of the Problem

Nationally, women make up 57% of college enrollments nationwide.

  • They have higher grades in high school.
  • Men are far more likely to drop out.
  • Among older, low-income, black and Hispanic students, women are more likely to attend college.

There’s a whole plethora of causal relationships that need to be teased out of this, and there are some academics studying and writing about what they call “the decline of the American male.” I feel strongly that the American education system has become hostile to boys from a very early age. Normal male behavior is routinely punished, and boys are not given enough opportunities for moving around and blowing off steam as early as kindergarten.

Richard Whitmire, blogger at Why Boys Fail, recently wrote an article for the Wall St. Journal called Pew Helps Explain Why the Right Man Is Getting Harder for Educated Women to Find.

Given that women prefer to find a well-educated, reliable earner as a husband, this creates a simple math problem. Well-educated women can’t find enough equally or better-educated men to marry.

The Times article opines, “In terms of academic advancement, this is hardly the worst news for women — hoist a mug for female achievement. And certainly, women are primarily in college not because they are looking for men, but because they want to earn a degree.”

Yeah, but come on! We want relationships in college!

Colleges are loathe to cross the 60/40 divide, because it makes it very difficult to attract top female students when the numbers get that lopsided. As a result many private colleges work hard to maintain a 50/50 split, including admitting a higher percentage of boys who apply, with lower overall grades and test scores. Recently, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights announced that it would be investigating whether colleges are discriminating illegally against qualified female applicants.

Stephen Farmer, Director of Admissions at UNC, posted a response today to the Times article on UNC’s Admissions page:

As I told the reporter, the percentages of men and women in the entering class at Carolina haven’t changed for nearly thirty years. If these percentages are “new,” then they’re new in the way that, say, cable television or microwave popcorn is new. I’m waiting for the next big headline: Orville Redenbacher Is Changing How We Snack.

Still, there’s no denying that women in college are miserable about the low operational sex ratio, which ensures that guys will be making all of the rules for the foreseeable future.

Needless to say, this puts guys in a position to play the field, and tends to mean that even the ones willing to make a commitment come with storied romantic histories. Rachel Sasser, a senior history major at the table, said that before she and her boyfriend started dating, he had “hooked up with a least five of my friends in my sorority — that I know of.”

And this doesn’t even take hookup culture into account! Stephen Farmer:

Dating culture, from what I can tell, has been skewed and on the skids for a pretty long time. My friends who have college-aged sons and daughters sometimes express amazement at the apparent dearth of dating at the schools their children attend. But the only thing amazing is their amazement, because dating on college campuses, regardless of the male-female ratio, has been dead for a long time.

Exacerbating the Problem

A significant percentage of the male student body is deemed “unacceptable” by their female peers.

“Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool.”

“Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent.”

Why are half of the guys eliminated right out of the box? Stephen Farmer says that UNC is at a disadvantage because it doesn’t have an engineering school. I’m not buying it — if they did have one, the number of males not worthy of consideration would probably be much higher.

The women are responding to conditions in the sociosexual marketplace. More college women than ever before are having at least some sex – estimates are around 70%. Fewer college men than ever before are having some sex – estimates are around 20%. I’ve spoken about this problem before here. This means we’ve got a small number of guys getting laid on a fairly regular basis. They are most likely to be found in frats and on sports teams. The sexual favors of nearly all the women having sex are directed toward this elite group of Alpha males. The rest of the guys are “locked out” of the hookup scene – Jayne doesn’t even know they’re alive.

Whose fault is this? That is a very difficult question. This circumstance has been ushered in by numerous factors, including the Sexual Revolution, the Pill and Roe v. Wade. With fear of pregnancy theoretically eliminated for most women, sexual freedom means a girl can take her shot at Alpha. There is intense intrasexual competition among girls for these lucky few.

“Thanks to simple laws of supply and demand, it is often the women who must assert themselves romantically or be left alone on Valentine’s Day, staring down a George Clooney movie over a half-empty pizza box.”

“I was talking to a friend at a bar, and this girl just came up out of nowhere, grabbed him by the wrist, spun him around and took him out to the dance floor and started grinding,” said Kelly Lynch, a junior at North Carolina, recalling a recent experience.

Here’s how the girls are enjoying themselves with these paragons of genetic fitness and strength:

  • “A lot of my friends will meet someone and go home for the night and just hope for the best the next morning. They’ll text them and say: ‘I had a great time. Want to hang out next week?’ And they don’t respond.”
  • “Girls feel pressured to do more than they’re comfortable with, to lock it down.”
  • “[Cheating] is a thing that girls let slide, because you have to. If you don’t let it slide, you don’t have a boyfriend.”
  • “If a guy is not getting what he wants, he can quickly and abruptly go to the next one, because there are so many of us.”

Kathleen A. Bogle, a sociologist at La Salle University in Philadelphia, wrote the book, “Hooking Up: Sex, Dating, and Relationships on Campus,” which has been a primary source for this site. She commented for the Times piece:

On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships. Women do not want to get left out in the cold, so they are competing for men on men’s terms. This results in more casual hook-up encounters that do not end up leading to more serious romantic relationships. Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.

W. Keith Campbell, a psych professor at the University of Georgia, says that women on gender-imbalanced campuses are paying a social price for success and, to a degree, are being victimized by men precisely because they have outperformed them. In this way, some colleges mirror retirement communities, where women often find that the reward for outliving their husbands is competing with other widows for the attentions of the few surviving bachelors.

OMG!!! Retirement communities! Kill me now!

All is not lost

You are not powerless to make a difference.

1. Some men actually prefer relationships.

Several male students from female-heavy schools took pains to note that they were not thrilled with the status quo.

“It’s awesome being a guy,” admitted Garret Jones, another North Carolina senior, but he also lamented a culture that fostered hook-ups over relationships. This year, he said, he finally found a serious girlfriend.

2. There are some really cute, smart and nice guys in that underappreciated 50%.

You are not going to find them in frats, and you may not even be able to find them in bars. You’re going to have to go looking for them, and you’re going to have to assert interest, just like you do now with the Players.

But listen up, this is many years of experience talking:

You want to marry a man in that 50% that Jayne won’t consider.

  • He is not spending his college years as an alcoholic man whore.
  • He is not skipping class and barely getting by.
  • He is not becoming cynical and jaded while using women as cum dumpsters.

Most of the men who are smart, and kind, and worthy of you are not to be found passed out in a puddle of beer. They are not covered with Sharpie graffiti from head to toe. Some of those guys may turn out OK in the end. Like, ten years from now. You don’t have that kind of time to waste.

The pool of educated, marriageable men is shrinking, and there is no solution in sight. If marriage and motherhood are your goal anytime in the next ten years, then now is not too soon to consider and pursue a strategy for experiencing healthy relationships.

I know it kinda sucks to be a young woman in college right now. Some women are going to get what they want, and some aren’t. You’ve got your back against the wall. Stop doing what doesn’t work over and over again.

Step away from that wall and put up a fight.

3 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • stormscr3

    I love reading everyone of your articles – everything is so on point.


    Hot guy with a conscience

  • susanawalsh

    Storm! Thanks! How did it go with the girls? a;lkdja;lsdkfja;lskdjfas;

  • Decoybetty

    You know what I never understood, so I went to an All Women's college and there were several co-ed institutions near by. And when I went to this college, I assumed that guys would flock there. Particularly, that 50% who wasn't getting laid at their own college. I mean come on! They had their choice of prime smart ladies. Except that not one of them ever showed up. Not one.

    My suggestion fellas – is tap into that market. Don't be scared of the all women's institution. embrace them.

    My suggestion ladies – is I don't have one. I went to all women's college which was suppose to empower me to talk to men like equals and instead made me kind of terrified because the only guys I saw were terrifying frat boys – and if that was what boys were like – I didn't want anything to do with them.

  • synthesis

    “He is not becoming cynical and jaded while using women as cum dumpsters. “

    He may be becoming cynical and jaded from not getting any and seeing douchebags getting laid left and right. Better hurry up!

    That NYT article paints a funny picture. One would think if a guy walks through a typical public university, it would resemble an Axe body spray commercial.

  • susanawalsh

    I think your suggestion to guys is a great one! If I were a guy in college, I would figure out where chicks congregate during the day and go there. His campus, a different campus, doesn't matter.

    My brother went to MIT, which had a reciprocal arrangement with Wellesley College. He signed up for a Lit course and took a bus two days a week all the way out there, at least a 45 minute drive. By the middle of his Freshman year, he had a gf and they were together all the way through college.

  • susanawalsh

    Ah, you're right. Those guys not getting any are understandably frustrated, and some cross over into bitter and angry territory. Still, if I had to be on a desert island with one or the other, I'd take bitter and angry virgin over cynical and jaded man slut anyday.

  • ExNewYorker

    Ha! You had a different experience than I did.

    One of my good friends in school had a girlfriend at one of the prestigious East Coast Womens' Colleges, and there was some traffic between the schools for those interested in taking courses not available at their home school, but available at the other one.

    As you can imagine, there was a small, but reasonably numerous contingent of guys from our local science/tech school who made the pilgrimage over, myself included. And what a fiasco that was…we were viewed as intruders, only there to snag a girlfriend, and generally given the cold shoulder with extreme prejudice. The only exception was my friend, who on some occasions, wound up receiving some flirtations, to the annoyance of his girlfriend. Apparently, the fact that a woman had selected him made him more interesting than the single guy at his side. :-) And how did my friend find the girlfriend? Well, she was as transfer student…they'd met back home, and she transferred there to be closer to him.

    Interestingly enough, the reverse situation, for the women from that school coming to our campus, was vastly different. I knew no woman in that situation who didn't find a boyfriend, and this was the case with several acquaintances of mine. At least two that I can remember wound up married.

  • Pete

    You're dealing with a generation of young men who grew up with divorce. You got to think that's going to leave a mark. Get married? So I can get dumped in a few years and lose access to my kids, just like daddy? Yeah, that sounds fun. Maybe young men in that apparently invisible 50% would like to keep it that way.

    I went to engineering school back in the day. I didn't have time to party. The classes were brutal and I was too tired to chase after girls… not to mention broke. Sometimes, it's just easier to watch videos on the dorm floor, play video games (Commodore 64 games were all the rage when I went to school) and drink a few beers when the RAs weren't around.

    Also, the whole AIDS thing was in full gear back in the 80s… tough enough to get friendly with the fairer sex when all you heard about was how this epidemic was killing everyone. You gotta think some of these young men are concerned about that too. Apparently women aren't, if the statistics from this blog are to be believed. I do NOT get that?

  • http://gameforomegas.wordpress.com/ Omega Man

    It's a society wide problem of male socialization. Male socialization is pretty tricky. But boys are raised and treated, by families and schools, on a sink or swim basis. Some are lucky, genetically and socially, to have the kind of personality that does well in American society. Of the rest, many sink. It won't change because nobody cares.

    It's going to be a Roissy world for the foreseeable future.

  • Giraffe

    At the risk of sounding incredibly naive:

    Why can't a woman just get her sexual needs fulfilled from a f*ck buddy, and her emotional needs fulfilled from a friend? Or does she have a special set of emotional needs that can only be fulfilled by a man she's having sex with?

  • susanawalsh

    Hi Pete, thanks for leaving a comment. You raise a really good point. Divorce has left its mark on this generation of young people. The research shows that wrt hookup culture, kids who experienced divorce are much more likely to avoid relationships, and that's true for women and well as men. The inequities in divorce/custody/child support laws certainly may assumed to be understood by those kids, so it's very possible that's a factor.

    Re STDs, yeah, I don't get that either. I've seen estimates that 25% of college students have genital herpes today, and within 5 years that number could well be 50%. That's the STD that strikes fear into the hearts of students the most, as far as I can tell. HPV comes a close second, tho the vaccination has helped there. Chlamydia? No problem! Big antibiotics will do the job, only problem is you can't drink for a few days. What a bummer! AIDS is quite unusual on campuses at this point, so that is something to be thankful for. Still–I don't understand why anyone would have sex without a condom before seeing lab results.

  • susanawalsh

    I'm afraid you're right about this. Here are some of my pet peeves in the earliest years:

    1. Far too little recess and physical activity for boys, as referenced above.
    2. Boys are overdiagnosed with ADD and overmedicated. While some of this may be helpful, it sends a negative message to boys, girls and parents that impulsiveness is bad, physical energy is bad, and only a gentle communication style is acceptable. Many of history's most creative contributors would certainly be diagnosed as “disordered” today, rather than encouraged.
    3. Girl-style conflict management is the only acceptable approach. Nurturing, including, talking about feelings. When boys are left to their own devices, they usually resolve issues with a minimum of fuss.
    4. Boys who draw pictures of things they find interesting, like bad guys, superheroes, etc. are accused of portraying violence.
    5. Boys who are individualistic are discouraged – a herd mentality is promulgated, and “leaders” who emerge tend to be Eddie Haskell types (dating myself here).
    6. Boys learning styles are much more likely to be considered problematic.

    Overall, inherent gender differences are ignored, and instead girl norms are held up as the standard.

    I could go on and on. I have seen all of this firsthand. I have seen my son suffer for it and my daughter praised. I truly believe that the current generation of college males has been receiving subtle and not-so-subtle harmful messages of this sort for 12+ years by the time they get to college, if they make it that far.

  • susanawalsh

    The latter. When women have sex, they experience a surge of oxytocin, which is often called the bonding hormone. It signals the brain: “Feeling close to this person, liking this feeling.” It's especially strong if she has an orgasm. In this way, a girl can fall pretty hard for a guy she doesn't even like that much. Men get the oxytocin surge too, but it's partially suppressed by testosterone.

    In addition, women are more emotionally expressive than men, in general. We grow up practicing how to get close to people, and this is a good thing in many ways. It also means that sex is pretty much never really casual for us.

  • GudEnuf

    You know how society is finally starting to releaze you shouldn't use the word “gay” as a synonym for “bad”?

    We need to stop using “virgin” as a synonym for “loser”.

    God they made a whole stupid movie about mocking a man because he was 40 years old and didn't have sex. That really hurt me when people started seeing that movie and saying “it was so funny.”

  • susanawalsh

    GedEnuf, I was not using that word as a synonym for loser! No way. Hell, I've outlined here what the deal is with guys in college. The vast majority have got to be virgins, or at the least very inexperienced. Research has been done where college guys were asked the question, “What percentage of guys on campus do you believe had sex last weekend?” The average response was 80-85%. The real number is 5-10%. There is no shame in being in the 90%.

    BTW, I've also said explicitly that there are only three things one needs to be really, really good at sex: Enthusiasm, Boldness and Focus. And all of it can be learned in one good weekend with someone you really dig. I've seen a guy go from virgin to sex god in 48 hours, and I was right there with him. We were two bumbling idiots but guess what – it's not rocket science, haha.

  • GudEnuf

    Sorry I didn't mean you were using it as a synonym for loser. I just meant people in general. I think if men didn't have to worry about losing reputation then some of them wouldn't feel the need to be as promiscious. (Not all of them but some of them.)

    Anyway I just thought I'd share that because I was frustrated and you and your readers have a good appreciation of the double standards that hurt both men and women.

  • susanawalsh

    OK, whew. You know, I remember that story you told about how guys are proud? Where the gf of a guy made it clear in front of his friends that she couldn't wait to get him alone by grabbing his crotch? And his friends respected him for having a gf who was that into him, and what that implied about his sexuality. That was a great story, and I thought it was GREAT advice for girls.

    You're saying that here too–if a guy can feel pride in what he's got going on, or at the very least avoid shame, then he might not feel the need to act like a Player. I like that.

  • AT

    I just came from an advice blog where the poster was talking about her FWB situation and wondering why she was the one doing all the work (duh!) and making all the moves (double duh!) while he never took the initiative. One of the commenters there said something that I think single women should all consider–he said that there is a difference between “husband material” and “boyfriend material.” Boyfriend material usually means short to medium term relationships where the emphasis is fun. Husband material is when you aim for a long term commitment with someone you can foresee starting a family with.

    Which brings me to the point you were saying as well, Susan—that you won't find “husband material” men in a puddle of beer. And they most likely won't be in the 10% who are having fun being Alphas screwing around, either. The bottom line is that women need to stop looking at the short term and buying into the hookup culture. They need to re-calibrate their expectations and consider the long term ramifications of their actions while they're still young enough to have options.

  • susanawalsh

    It's hard to make gorgeous, luscious, 21 year-old women think about aging out of their beauty. The truth is, most guys who are 30 and not looking at 30 year-old women. They're looking at 23 year-old women. That brings up two possible pieces of advice for women who want a life partner:

    1. When you get out of college, look to older guys, not the recent beer puddle graduates.

    2. Don't fritter away your 20s thinking there will always be a parade of hot guys interested in you. You'll never look better or be more fertile than in this decade. And there's a whole new crop coming up right behind you.

    Harsh? Yes.

    Politically incorrect? Of course, I tend to be that way.

    True? Just look one generation ahead. Carrie Bradshaws everywhere you turn. Or worse, Samanthas!

  • AT

    I find it funny that some people keep yelling, “That's so unPC!!!” But guess what? Reality IS very unPC. We can couch everything in acceptable terms to take the sting out, but it won't change the reality of a given situation.

    Men will always have more options than women as they age–that's a fact, no matter how you cut it. What a lot of young women don't realize is that we have expiration dates, our youth and beauty highly perishable, and we have to maximize it while we still can. I actually shake my head at some women who constantly yell at men for being shallow and being preoccupied with how women look. Newsflash: Men are visual, that's how they're hardwired, and insisting that they shouldn't be is pointless. You can't argue with instinct.

  • http://FT.com/ VJ

    Good thoughts on 'sizing the day' and recognizing that no, beauty does not last forever. Stupid is however more lasting. I came away with a rather simple but common thought that of course gets me banned in places. It's this:

    “Unless & until people come to value men & women more for their innate character, intelligence, wisdom & moral strength and not just their outside beauty & youthful good looks & vigor, they'll keep on making the same classically 'tragic errors' with their ill considered & perhaps foolishly short term choices. Naturally too”.

    Pretty simple huh? I can't tell you how many people, including 40 something women it annoys. Me? I'd certainly would have been in that 40% of the male population that would have been 'written off' as unacceptable. I'm shorter than the average bear. Now? I'm fatter too, but that's another story. Way back then? Not so much. But the women who were after me, (and there were a few), Did see the qualities that my later wife did too. But for most of the 20 something set? It's by now largely a 'lost decade' of sexual oblivion of one sort or another. Mindless hookups on one end, ever hopeful of generating something more lasting, or closeted 'hermitages' of hopeful dreamers plotting their escape into wider social circles of accessibility. Or even 'meeting & greeting' more.

    I can't tell you how depressing it is to still hear that for the college female population at least, half of their potential 'targets'/mates are 'off their radar', out of bounds for one reason or another. And yes, much like Lori Gottlieb many of those 300 or so 'deal breakers' that many women carry around with them for more then a decade are almost Wholly Irrelevant to whether or not this man might have the potential to be a good husband, father, spouse, friend or worker.
    Here's her list of the top 5:

    “5 Traits in a Mate That Are Not Deal Breakers, by Lori Gottlieb”:


    My guess is that it's something about the culture that has women, even in the dint of severe competition whereby they'll have to be in an effective 'harem' for much of their entire academic careers, makes them think that guys under 5'8-5'7″ or so are now & forever 'strictly unacceptable'. Even for a lowly FWB deal. Ladies? That's more than half of humanity right there of men under the common 'break point' of 6'. It'll take some of them well into their 40's to come to that realization. Most really never will.

    Character? Wisdom? Accomplishments? Nah, nadda, nothing doing for the 'short stuff'. No matter what you might bring to the table. Time & time again repeated social & economic studies will show that, again for various reasons. But yeah. Always know that somehow more than half of humanity is being left out of the equation here. And the math? Never really ever reflects this. There are a plethora of willing, able, eager & very eligible males on or near most every campus in the US. (The gal for Fordham proved that in NYC). Still most guys will be neglected by the vast majorities of females on campus. Some might still be remembered wistfully some decades hence. Hey, I was. But by that time, I'd already been married for almost the entire time in the interim. The difference? A smart woman of character knew what a smart guy having character looked like. And he need not have been tall to accomplish what needed to be done. Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'

  • mkandefer

    Hey Susan,

    Why not any recommendations for online dating for women looking for guys that are less likely to be engaging in hook up activity? Many guys turn to online dating because they are of the “beta male” variety, afraid to engage in communication directly without knowing what the object of their affection wants. I found my boyfriend through OKCupid.


  • susanawalsh

    Much wisdom here and also a great link. The Lori Gottlieb stuff I've mentioned before, but it's calling to me again – with her book just out she's all over the internetz.

    Re height, I'm on the short side (5'3″) and all of my bf's were pretty short too. I kinda like short guys, I don't know why. I wound up marrying a tall guy, but it took me a while to get used to him. And his hips are smaller than mine, so I could never wear boyfriend jeans. Bummer!

  • susanawalsh

    Hi Mike, welcome! You know, I've been meaning to do a piece about online dating for a while now. I've been slow to come to it b/c I was off the market before I ever tried it, but it's a real option, and there are even sites now catering to the college crowd. I'll research and see what I can learn.

    Thanks for the nudge – your story is good inspiration!

  • Violet

    Well, the problem is, you can't tell who's “husband material” at age 21. I was a different person at age 21 (more naive and less experienced in so many ways) than I am at 23 (soon to be 24). Somebody who is immature at age 21 might be totally husband or wife material by age 26. Sometimes, you just don't know. The worst case scenario, which does seem to frequently happen, is people marrying way too young because they thought they found the perfect person for them and then later learning that's not it.

    I will say that FWB is never the desirable situation.

    Also, the two boyfriends I've ever had (or have, hah!) were not from my college and they were older, so there!

  • Violet

    Somehow, I read this comment and think of Mary Pols of “Accidentally on Purpose” fame. What was her criteria for selecting men again?

  • susanawalsh

    Hey Violet! It is true that people grow and change in their 20s. Many guys who acted like knuckleheads in college will shape up. All we can do is look at a prospect and ask ourselves, “Is this someone I want to be with right now?” If there answer is no, we have to throw that one back and keep fishing.

    Because at any age, 18-30, there are guys who are relationship material. And most women aren't looking for a husband in college. Just finding a guy you enjoy spending time with who treats you well is a challenge!

    Re FWB, there must be some women that love it, but I have never heard from a single one. It's just not how most women are made.

  • susanawalsh

    Ouch, she um, didn't have any? Actually, her two primary relationships in her 20s were with guys who never committed in any way. She hung on, hopeful, until each of them told her rather brutally I DON'T WANT YOU. The next guy she referred to as The Thumb Sucker, that was her early 30s. At 39 she had a one-night stand with a cute slacker who became her child's father. He seemed nice enough, but didn't fall for her.

    She seemed to drift along, hoping for the best, but not making the hard choices. 20 years went by very quickly. I'd have to say she seems drawn to unattainable men, emotionally unavailable men. She's not alone by any means, but she is a warning to younger women.

  • AT

    There are still some yardsticks that you can measure someone by that will always hold true, no matter what age he is, and that is: they have to treat you with respect. Alpha asshats more often than not don't. While marriage may not be something you think of at 21, respect is still something that you should always make a non-negotiable.

    Susan perseveres in writing about this simply because I believe she is seeing self-respect in young women continuously diminishing in the present hook-up culture. I applaud her efforts in trying to get the message across.

  • synthesis


    Is that secret code?

  • stormscr3

    Ended up just becoming friends with both girls and now trying to chill and repress my “girl jumping.” I think I realized I needed some “me time” and didn't always have to be talking to someone.

  • ExNewYorker

    The odd part is that there are plenty of men their own age who would make good partners for them. So it amazes me that women wouldn't want to have choice 2) as their first choice…they have the upper hand with choice 2). With choice 1), it's more in the guys favor.

    The first batch of solid marriages in my acquaintance are of those women who, during their early 20's, picked the the best beta males in school (choice 2). They chose the ones who would be faithful, devoted, loving and who a had a measure of ambition in their careers. They didn't choose the players, the ones who put career ahead of everything, the ones who just wanted to be friends with benefits. During the college years, they had time to study their the men, so see who they were behind the first impressions. But these were a minority of women…most followed the cads…

    Finding a mate is not a part time hobby. It's a more important decision than any job, but so often it gets less effort than an appliance purchase.

  • http://FT.com/ VJ

    Via the DailyBeast the girl reactions to 'the newest 'blockbuster' Dear John movie says it all about the current ethos on 'relationships':


    “The movies may be alternately cheesy and sappy, and the scripts laughable, but teen and tween girls don't care. What they care about is Robert Pattinson's broody face, Taylor Lautner's ripped abs, and, now, Channing Tatum's, uh, Channing-ness. (Sam's assessment: “He's so hot!” She then clarified: hotter than Lautner, but not as hot as Pattinson.)”

    “Romance ensues, as do a lot of other complications involving John's autistic dad, back-and-forth love letters, Savannah's no-good ex, and a slightly older man whom Savannah ultimately winds up with. It's this latter point that left the girls dumbfounded.

    “Eww—that was so gross!” chimed in Chandler Taylor (the girls, including another friend, Isabel Murray, were all over at Cori's house, talking on speaker phone), of Dear John's un-Hollywood ending. “I definitely think it ruined the movie. I just think everyone wanted her [Seyfried] to end up with Channing Tatum, because, I don't know, it was kind of like she was the main girl. It was just kind of, like, weird.”

    Sam agreed: “I don't like how she married the old guy. He had a kid who was autistic, and she wanted to make sure the kid had a mom. I think that's a stupid reason to marry this weird, old guy. She could have just lived with him. She didn't have to, like, marry him. That's unrealistic. This guy is like 30 years older than her. He was an old fart. And she was so young. It was just like—what?”

    (The “old fart” is played by 38-year-old Henry Thomas—who was Elliott in E.T.)”

    So no, I really don't expect much from teens. But once upon a time they did actually read literature and empathize with the 'Little Women' characters or even those in Jane Austen. The romance was more about characters, not any fine description of bodily form or much comment about beauty. Now? They're seemingly incapable of much thought when inundated with cozy scenes of rippling abs on 'ubber' cute guys. Perhaps it was ever thus. But it need not be carried all the way into the next full decade of their lives as master plots for their own romantic ambitions. But all too often? It is. To their obvious & lasting detriment often too. It really is brainwashing of yet another generation of both men & women. Men think they don't have a chance unless they've got riches, the favored bod & style. Women imagine that there's a handsome, personable Hollywood hunk waiting to rescue/sweep them of their feet at any given moment. Not gonna to happen folks. Reality is still more wonderfully complicated & actually rewarding than that. But evidently, so few want to live there! Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'

  • susanawalsh

    hahaha, I just read the story and I LOVED what the one guy in the theater said. When asked what his favorite part was, he said simply, “When he got shot.”

    BAAAAH, gender differences!

    Re brainwashing, yeah, I agree totally. Young women are being raised on a steady diet of incredibly unlikely true love stories. It's warping expectations, and those women who passively wait for romantic rescue are going to wind up alone. What's really troubling is that Lori Gottlieb's book is setting off all kinds of light bulbs for some women – they're 35 and saying, “Yes, that's me! Is it too late?”

    Unfortunately, it probably is. There's nothing wrong with romantic fantasy. It's great fun, and it touches something women really feel. It's the suspension of disbelief, the application of these stories into one's own goals, that will be the undoing of many women in this generation.

  • susanawalsh

    Haha, no that's me getting so agitated that my fingers just sort of fly across the middle row of the keyboard. Definitely a girl thing.

  • susanawalsh

    Storm, I love that self-awareness right there. And for the record, “repress my girl jumping” is about the coolest resolution I've ever heard!

  • susanawalsh

    Hey ENY. You know, I want to point out one thing here. Often people think that when I say go for the nice guys, I'm saying forget about sexual attraction, you'll have to do without it, none of these guys will provide it. In my experience, that is simply not true. I don't want anyone to feel like they should marry a man they're not sexually attracted to – that's a long road ahead of sex you won't want, which is awful.

    As I look around my own community, with lots of attractive intact families, I'd guess that nearly all of the men were underappreciated in college. It's the same as the recent post about Conflicted and his worry about his gf's number of past hookups. Later these guys all turn out to be a real catch. Women need to realize these guys had it going on 10 years ago. They just weren't spitting Game, for the most part.

    It makes sense for women to tap into a huge untapped resource as they seek a mate. Truly, these guys are ascending, so women should grab one while they can. In this era of harsh mating realities, women really should work it like it's their job.

  • Pingback: I Hate Math, Especially on College Campuses | Hooking Up Smart | Men's Health Wisdom()

  • aldonza

    And God save me from the jaded man slut who used to be a bitter angry virgin. That seems to be a particularly nasty beast.

  • aldonza

    Sexual attraction for women is usually more complicated than it is for men. It's possible for a woman to look at someone she's known for ages and suddenly “see the light” about him. It's far less common for a man to do that (but still possible, particularly if a woman changes her appearance in a major way.)

    I think people are being unfair to themselves and their perspective mates by only judging sexual attraction as “instant chemistry.” We've all known people who we initially thought were pretty hot, only to discover things about them that turned us off. Well, the opposite can be true too.

    I remember getting a major tingle seeing someone I'd know for ages practice law in court. His normal (somewhat beta) persona was very different from his (full-on alpha) court persona. I had a similar reaction to a fairly low-key guy I was dating when I saw his RANGER tab on his Class A uniform and almost un-friendzoned another guy when I discovered he was an accomplished musician. If any of those guys had tried to entice my interested by telling me this stuff, it would've come off as insecure bragging and very unattractive. I'd *never* have known any of it just hooking up in a club.

  • susanawalsh

    Haha, agreed! I call this Beta with a chip on his shoulder, and watch out girls, he will break hearts without remorse.

  • susanawalsh

    This is a great field report, haha! I once developed sexual attraction for a guy FROM A DREAM. I kid you not. It must have been there and latent all along, but once I dreamed it, there was no going back. He was a coworker, and it took him all of 3 days to notice a difference. He made his move shortly thereafter, but I resisted. He was a total Player.

  • ExNewYorker

    I agree, there has to be attraction at the root of all this. I'm also not advocating being with someone who you do not find sexually attractive. That is a dead end.

    To be truthful, I don't expect women to flock to the good guys. The majority will do as they currently do, go for the cads. A percentage will learn, if they are self-questioning, after a bad experience, but a majority will not. The 20% of women who are skeptical of cads (even if they too find them attractive) will see this and it'll validate what they're doing in avoiding the cads, and encourage them to see the untapped resources more clearly.

  • synthesis

    I'm a guy and sometimes girls seem to get hotter the more time I spend with them. Maybe I'm weird like that. There was a girl in one of my lab classes that was short, had a petite body and a round face. Initially, I thought she was disproportionate looking, but after a while I began to see her attractiveness. We flirted some but she had a boyfriend.

  • susanawalsh

    Yay, I am glad to hear it can work this way for guys – it means something about her caused you to reevaluate her looks somewhat.

  • nullpointer

    As well he should.

  • susanawalsh

    Wrong! Welcome, nullpointer. True beta is a good man, it is not in his nature to inflict cruelty. If he can hurt a woman who has hurt him, fine. I say, “Be the trouble you want to see in the world.”

    But if he should meet a good woman, and he can abandon his cynicism, this meeting of the souls will make him happy.

    It may take him a while to realize this.

  • DIlithium

    DB — My mileage differs from yours.

    I went to a tech college, not all-male but largely so. This college had historically had a social exchange relationship with a nearby women's college, and during Halloween of my freshman year a dance was arranged to be held at the women's college. Large groups of men from the tech college headed over, with a few of our female students along, with high expectations for some fun. Well, that was not to be: basically none of the girls from the host college showed up! to a dance party in their own quad! The few tech school girls who came along wound up doing extra duty for all the dancing, and on the whole the night was an excruciating embarrassment for everyone. (It turned out, perhaps to no surprise, that the “historical social relationship” between the two schools was really a thing of the distant past, and by the time I got there the women's college girls had decided they really didn't want to bother with tech college boys.) To this day, the men who were there refer to that night as “The Massacre” whenever we think back on it.

    This is only one incident, but it was really the model for everything I experienced in the 10-15 years that followed. Later I was at a large, “normal” university with an even male/female ratio, but the same pattern ensued: at every place or event where people could meet — every party, every mixer, every bar, every club, every dance, every movie night, absolutely every everywhere — there were _always_ more men than women in attendance. So that's my experience, and that of every man my age that I ever talked to: when it comes to getting out and trying to meet people, guys show up but women don't.

  • teleprompter

    I am a guy and I have had similar experiences. The longer I know someone, the more likely I am to notice qualities such as confidence, humor, etc. Sometimes those things are more subtle. Some people are really confident or funny in ways that don't immediately come across on a first impression. At least for me, attraction is something that is more plastic.

  • susanawalsh

    One of the things that I often hear from men (and in the evo psych literature) is that for men, it's all about looks, period. Smarts, or charm, or confidence only make a difference if the guy is already attracted.If that's the way it is, so be it, but it limits opportunities for women, obviously. And leaves us feeling 100% objectified, which can be rather depressing. Even Super Hot Babes don't like it.

    Hearing a couple of men say that personality matters is a relief, not to mention brains (which wit requires).

  • nullpointer

    An eye for an eye and soon the whole world shall be blind.

    The night is darkest before the dawn and nothing will change until it gets bad enough.

    Yes, I'm being overly dramatic.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    Personality does matter to me a lot, but attraction is still one of the primary elements. Many people assume that for guys attraction is *everything* and that personality is very limited. Attraction is important to me, and personality is one of the factors that defines how attractive I find someone.

    Unfortunately, you evo psych literature is partially correct in that smarts, charm, or confidence won't make a difference if I perceive that there is no possibility of me being attracted to someone.

    If my initial reaction is terrible, then there may sadly be no amount of difference those things can make. Confidence and wit can make someone who seems physically plain at first, really attractive to me. But there is a certain baseline of attractiveness for me below which it is fairly difficult to consider.

    I wish my own reactions didn't make me feel as if I am objectifying women, even at a 40 or 50 % level. If it's any consolation, I also feel much less attracted to someone if my personality clashes after I initially felt more attracted, so I do think it can be more even.

  • susanawalsh

    Well, this is just human nature, after all. The world would be a pretty confusing place if we were potentially attracted to everyone>, haha.

    Another thing we often overlook. Scent/pheromones play a crucial role. Both women and men are sexually attracted to people with DNA very different from their own. And we say NO WAY if it's too similar, e.g. siblings. This of course, protects the species. Sometimes, you're just not feeling it, and that's probably for the best in that case.

  • Mani

    I really enjoyed this article, Susan. As a college student myself I found a lot of the things you said very relevant.

    I am entering the age where I'm going to be at my prime (my early 20s!) very soon. Yet, I am still torn about a lot of things when it comes to dating. I've dated in the past, not really hooked up. I've been tempted to hook up before just to kind of “fit in” in college, but reading your blog makes me think twice about what I'm looking for…it's constantly refreshing. I have been doing my best to reduce douche-bag tendencies, but sometimes it's just so hard seeing beautiful men so interested in beautiful women on campus, when I just feel like leftovers. I think most of the men in my life have actually just used me (guy friends included)…pretty much just wanted to mess around with me then discard me, so I have never been “good enough” to become an actual girlfriend, which is why my self esteem is so fragile, and why I have sky-rocket high expectations. Still, it's the white-knight syndrome, you expect this perfect man to sweep you off your feet so you automatically mark out the less-than-perfect men who COULD be damn near close to perfect for YOU if you just allowed them to. It makes you think twice about who you're filtering out when maybe you should be giving these guys a chance.

    I agree with you that there must be sexual attraction…and I agree that it's probably going to be best to go for older men (the most successful chemistry I've had, although it didn't last, was with an older guy.) A lot of the men my age, however, are still very wrapped up in hookup culture. For the ones who aren't, the only thing is I think that the “dads” (who will make great boyfriends and husbands) are still kind of like “little boys”, shy, definitely nice guys, but they don't know how to act around girls and are awkward…but endearing :) I know quite a few “dads” who are definitely adorable in their own ways (and all around nice guys), but they just need a few years on them to mature.

    I am still recovering from douche-bag disease (using your system! lol) but still, it gets hard sometimes when it's so easy for your vision to get clouded. You know, not want the hot frat boys who only go for hot sorority girls. Still, I have hope that with the right mindset I still can find a man for me one day :)

  • susanawalsh

    Mani, of course you will! It's so important that you mentioned mindset, because that will make a huge difference. I encourage women to understand that they probably are not going to fall in love in college. The conditions are just too hostile to make it very likely.

    I also agree that a lot of the good guys will come into their own with more time to mature. For them, getting out of college and into a less stratified environment will help a lot.

    I know it's hard to be patient, and to watch as those sorority chicks have guys buzzing around them. Remember, though, be careful what you wish for. This article makes clear what relationships with these guys look like, and I've heard similar things in my own experience. A lot of times, the commitment is technical only, and the “girlfriend” is not feeling special or loved in any way. A guy agrees to date when he gets tired of the random hookup scene. For him it's just a more convenient hookup scene.

    Live your life, get as involved on campus as you can, and keep an open mind. That's all you can do. In the meantime, I commend you for not selling yourself cheaply. You already know how that feels, so I'm glad you're in DB rehab :-)

  • Dilithium

    Hmm. What leaps out at me here is the phrase

    “definitely nice guys, but they don't know how to act around girls”

    If there's some sort of mis-match going on then it seems rather unfair, at first blush, to put the blame entirely on the boy, to define the problem as a failing of his. Why isn't it equally true to say that girls like you don't know how to act around nice boys?

    Your view seems to be that the way you act is already sensible/mature/correct, and the task for the nice boy is to conform to what you want and expect (you call this “maturing). Well, what's your evidence for that? Why isn't it equally true to say that you're the one who needs to mature to see and appreciate the value that these boys already have?

    In short, you come across to me as feeling tremendously entitled and judgmental, without even being aware of it.

  • Mani

    I didn't mean to come across as judgmental, but this has been my experience.

    For example, I've gone on a few dates with nice guys in the past. He asked me out and I said yes. The entire time I had to do all the talking while he just pretty much answered my questions like it was an interview. I tried to connect with him but it didn't seem like we had anything in common and he didn't know how to act around me.

    I have LIKED nice boys in the past too, but they have never seemed to know how to act around me (one in particular who was the total antithesis of douche), no matter how much I tried to flirt (he invited me to homecoming two years in a row, but every time I tried to talk to him he would clam up, yet online we would talk for hours. Our relationship never went past the internet…)

    I'm not sure what you are trying to recommend here…I didn't mean to come across as judgmental. I do think that I have some maturing to do and some self esteem issues to work out, but I am definitely AWARE of myself. Perhaps, these have just been the nice boys in my experience which caused me to make that assumption, and I haven't ran across one that I have sparks with.

  • Mani

    And if you truly think the problem could be me, please share how so and what I can do then, I'm all for personal growth.

  • Mani

    Thanks Aunt Sue, I appreciate it :)

    I have to keep reminding myself of this in college! Trust me it's a long and shaky road going through rehab but it is NECESSARY. You brought up another good point – a lot of the times, I really don't see what goes on behind closed doors. They could show the world they're so happy and that's all I see, while in reality who knows.

  • Dilithium

    Hi Mani —

    I'm favorably impressed by your considered reply, and the value you put on self-awareness; so I'd like to return you some value. I'm not much on personal growth strategies, per se, but if you would consider it worthwhile to learn how to better, more productively interact with a nice guy then I may be able to help you out. The key, really the golden rule as with many other human interactions, is to be able to picture what the other person sees and where they're coming from. Understanding their past experiences is also a big help. With this in mind, here is a precis on the mind of the nice guy, starting with how he probably sees you and where he's been, and then discussing how you can use this knowledge to get a good relationship going with him. I hope it helps! and I wish you good luck.


    How you appear to him:
    If you're at least reasonably attractive, reasonably intelligent, and not apparently crazy or shallow, then to him you are: the Hope Diamond, but locked in a 12-digit combination safe at the other end of a tightrope stretched over a pool of alligators. In other words, you are a great and promising treasure, but he fears that to get anywhere with you he needs to do a whole series of things exactly right — one slip-up and his chance is gone.

    Why does he think this way? Because of his prior experience. If he's the socially un-fluent type, then chances are he didn't do very well in high school; more exactly, he probably tried to make time with some girls, but very often failed; and, even more exactly, not being socially fluent he failed but doesn't know WHY he failed. Let's face it, high school girls are not known for telling the truth in plain language, especially when rejecting someone; the boy who can't read social cues very well is only left to wonder, What did I do wrong? After several disappointing years of this he, quite understandably, comes to see girls as basically flaky and inscrutable — as 12-digit combination safes, where if you don't do everything exactly right, you're gone. Keep that image in mind.

    If you want to get with this guy in later life — he has a lot of advantages, too, as we will see — then your basic job is to demonstrate convincingly to him that you are _not_ the 12-digit safe, that you will _not_ require him to run a gauntlet of baffling tests and that you will _not_ dump him the first (or second) time he makes a mistake. Remember, coming out of high school that's his image of how all girls are — you have to actively work to overcome that image if you want to be worth his time.

    You might actually find this surprisingly difficult! and it may be more work than you're interested in doing. But the potential payoff is huge, and that's why I'm here to help. So here's my quick primer on How To Get With A Nice Guy While Both of You Have Fun.

    1. Be physical, but not necessarily sexual, early and often. Your nice guy, even if he's handsome and fit, probably has hang-ups about his body. As a woman you might be surprised to learn this — you thought only girls had body-image trouble — but it makes sense if you consider his past experience. He's been treated almost like a leper, basically untouched and untouchable, for years in a row; even if the real source of his problem was elsewhere, he's probably formed the idea, even subconsciously, that his body is somehow physically repulsive.
    You can correct this impression — you want to! — but there are better and worse ways to do so. My advice is, don't jump his bones in one big go right away (see below); better is to do a lot of small things to show, quietly and continually, that you enjoy his physical contact. You don't need to grope him or fall all over him; just hold hands, put your arm around his waist, lean against him sometimes when you walk. Continuous, small reminders are what will really be convincing.

    2. Don't command a performance that he can't (yet) deliver. Suppose you do indulge the urge to grab his crotch and say “All right, big boy, let's give it a go!” You might think of this as giving the ultimate compliment, fulfilling every young man's dream; but the most likely result in your nice guy is panic. Not that he's rejecting you! Trust me, he appreciates your enthusiasm! But you might not realize that you've put him in a tough spot: as he sees it, he now has to deliver a performance that he has little or no experience giving. He's thinking, what do I do now? Should I feel her up? should I try to take her shirt off? should we just kiss for a while? What's the right thing to do next? The truth, which is that any of those might be just fine, will not occur to him; instead of just doing whatever comes naturally, he fears that if he does the wrong thing at the wrong time you will change your mind and bail out.
    Why should he think this way? Again, most likely because that's what happened to him before. Imagine a standard high-school-age scene: a girl and a boy are alone together, hot and heavy for the first time; but at their age it's often the blind leading the blind. She's expecting him to lead the way, but when she finds out he's just as inexperienced it's not uncommon for the girl to call a halt to the proceedings. Different boys react to this in different ways. The self-centered ones, budding misogynists and future players, may blame the girl; while the now and future nice guy will more likely blame himself, able only to wonder What did I do wrong? Thus he builds up the 12-digit safe image: if you don't know exactly what to do next at every turn, then you might as well not start.
    Don't worry! this doesn't mean that you can't have fun sex with a nice guy! It's just that you'll be better off if you don't frame the situation in such a way that he's giving a high-stakes command performance. Make it absolutely clear that you're not going to grade and criticize his every move, and that you welcome the spirit of whatever he wants to try. This is probably true, you just have to get it across. And try some stuff yourself! nice guys, unlike alpha jocks, are usually very receptive to women taking the initiative.
    The same principle applies in many other, daylight situations. If your guy is not a fluent talker, then a dinner date may be a long and painful experience early in a relationship. You may just want him to relax and talk about whatever he wants to; but he may see it as a command performance, that he has to work to impress you — over and over again, every five minutes for two hours. This is one reason I wouldn't recommend dinner dates before two people know each other fairly well; a restaurant setting is blank, it doesn't give you much to work with. Better is an event, a parade, or even a walk around town, where new stuff is always coming into view and gives both of you something to talk about.
    The bottom line here is, try to avoid setting up situations in which your guy feels he has to perform something he's not good at; it will be painful for him, and make him look less attractive to you.

    3. Visit him when he's at his best. The flip side of the same token is that it's within your power to make your guy look _more_ attractive to you. (Isn't that a fun idea? having a magic wand that does nothing to you, but instead makes other people prettier for your benefit?) The key here is to spend time with him while he's doing something he's good at and that he enjoys. It may be playing a sport, or an instrument, or fixing up a car; almost everyone is good at something. You will appreciate seeing him happy, relaxed and masterful, and he will appreciate the chance to show off for you successfully. Note that this tactic is specific to nice guys: nice guys get a kick out of the idea that they can impress a girl, while alpha jocks consider it beneath them even to try.

    4. Feel free to be your best, and don't even think of bimbo-izing. This is another, subtler advantage of going with a nice guy: around them, it is to your advantage to show how smart and skilled you really are; they'll enjoy and appreciate it, where alpha jocks would be bothered and threatened. The reason why has to do with different approaches to ego support.
    A quick, common, though unimaginative attempt at ego support is to display yourself as being lesser or weaker than the other person: “Oh, Rocko, you're so strong, can you open this pickle jar for me?” This is the kind of support that alpha jocks like to get; their security comes from women's insecurity, from the idea that they have higher value and so women will be drawn to them and afraid to leave them.
    A different approach to ego support is, be as good and amazing a person as possible yourself, and then elevate the other person by singling them out for your favor. This is the kind of support that nice guys like to get. Remember, as a reasonably attractive woman you start the relationship with a nice guy in a position of superior power; you don't build him up by tearing yourself down. Once he's convinced that you really go for him, then everything good about you — your skills, your culture, your intelligence — reflects back positively on him; he'll enjoy bragging about how competent and amazing you are. So don't act like a bimbo, even for a moment! Be your best, it's all to the good. You may find this difficult to believe, but among nerds (typically a subset of nice guys) it's actually a high compliment when someone says “Man, your girlfriend is _smart_!”

    5. Don't ever flake out, or do anything that even faintly smacks of a power game. As mentioned above, if you're a reasonably attractive woman then you will start a relationship with an inexperienced nice guy in a position of superior power. Whether it's true or not, he will likely believe that you can get another guy at the snap of your fingers, while he can't do the same, which gives you the upper hand. Some girls find this not to their taste; and if so, then they are just advised to stay away from these guys. If you're willing to live with the upper hand, though, then my advice for you to be happy with your nice guy is simple: never, ever show that hand. If you try some sort of power move, to yank his chain even a little, it won't end well for you. At best, he'll be resentful of having his insecurity exposed; at worst he'll respond by turning himself door-mattish; and you don't really want either of those if you're at all a decent person.
    The problem is, you may think you don't want to do anything like this, but everyone does some of it naturally, without thinking. The simplest example is flaking, ie not showing up to an appointment, or showing up very late. Making other people wait is a traditional assertion of power, used by everyone from senators to DMV clerks. You probably do it, along with everyone else, without even realizing it. My point here is, you should be extra-careful not to flake out or otherwise overtly demonstrate power when dealing with an inexperienced nice guy, it's really just asking for trouble. If you _do_ have to miss a date, be absolutely sure to show explicit contrition later, even if only symbolic (brining a cupcake is a good start).

    Anyway, that's all I have time for now, but I hope it makes sense and helps you find success with some deserving nice guy in the future.

  • Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Happy Fake Corporate Holiday Edition | In Mala Fide()

  • Pingback: Shame Came Upon Me at an Early Age, I Now Embrace my Shame()

  • Rick

    A whole generation of frustrated Beta males are going to deal quite harshly with the indignities that their slutty female contemporaries have subjected them to.

    Those of us with self-respect are not willing to have alpha-male leftovers. Even ONE alpha male in a girl's past is enough for me to reject her forever.

    It is my full intention to subject these aging, wrinkling, child-burdened women to the exact portion of cruel rejection that they meted out during their “hot” years.

    I would like to reduce at least 5 women to tears within the next two years. I think that is a reasonable goal. Care must be taken, though, to ensure that the recipient is truly worthy of the “honor” of my contempt.

    I know that you don't approve, Susan, but I think it is too late for me to change my mind. If my actions disqualify me from being a good, decent Beta male and turn me into something else, well, then so be it.

    But nothing galls me more than these women (running out of options) trying to marry themselves off to a guy who spent his college nights studying, while they were giving some fratboy a blowjob.

    The only guys that will be available to them will be the desperate ones. So desperate for female attention that they are willing to settle for a banged-out loser of a woman.

  • susanawalsh

    Oh boy, I see we caught you in a very bad mood, Rick. I think you know by now that I totally get it wrt the plight of nice guys. However, let me ask you something. If women are “programmed,” from an evo POV to respond to certain male cues with sexual attraction, then how can you blame them for doing so? One Alpha male in a girl's past? You are too harsh, my friend. Please keep in mind that women are often deceived by Alphas. They don't exactly advertise their questionable motives, and they are very good at pretending to be sincere and caring until they get what they want. A woman who is focused on finding a satisfying, committed relationship will learn her lesson early, but expecting women to be Alpha *virgins* is a standard I fear few will meet.

    Re your plan to reduce 5 women to tears within two years:

    That's one of the more unusual resolutions I've heard. I understand where it's coming from but if you succeed, what will you have gained? Revenge can be sweet, but it's not really enough to live on.

    How about specifically targeting women who've made bad choices for 10 years? You can exact your revenge on that whole generation of women. Then seek a woman with good values, 10 years younger than yourself, without a great deal of sexual experience. They're out there, but you're going to have to dig to find them. Church is probs a good start (not being funny here, I'm 100% serious).

  • Rick

    Well, okay, but if you really want to talk about programming, guys are programmed to club the woman over the head and drag her back to the cave, right?

    I'm not sure that I'm ready to declare woman as helpless pawns who have no defenses against the wiles of an alpha male.

    And yes, revenge is hollow. But so are those delicious chocolate Easter bunnies!!!

  • susanawalsh

    Touche! You got me there. Guys are actually programmed to be dominant and aggressive, and it's problematic in today's society when it turns to physical abuse. So yes, we need to defend against our natural inclinations when they get us into big trouble.

    And I cracked up about the Easter bunnies, haha. So, so true. I saw a quote online (anonymous):

    Be the trouble you want to see in the world.

    Gandhi is rolling over in his grave, but I love it! The perfect revenge motto.

  • collegeboy

    Come on.

    High status males will always give you hell. With a college degree or not. This doesn’t make a difference. find a lower status male, so that you can boss him around and get your way with him instead. Life will be good for the girls and you can stop complaining.

    If you are educated and he is not can you imagine what it will be like when you have to fight something in court. the guy won’t have the critical thinking skills, the writing skills or the reading skills to win an argument. So what are you complaining about. Its time for women to rejoce.

    Women are still making less money and educated men. You want men to start making more money than you, so they can start behaving like alpha males and having more than one sexual partner.

    Remember its all about status. If men have the same educational qualifications then they will make more money and have more status than you, so why bother.

  • http://funandsocial.blogspot.com Nutz

    AT said:

    The bottom line is that women need to stop looking at the short term and buying into the hookup culture. They need to re-calibrate their expectations and consider the long term ramifications of their actions while they’re still young enough to have options.

    That’s not going to happen with all the single mommies and their narcissistic tendencies being passed down to future generations of girls. It’s all “me me me” entitlement mentality combined with unrestrained hypergamy that’s driving hookup culture. Fix these two things (stop giving state support to single mothers and bring back restrictions on female sexuality) and the problem will go away on its own. Seeing as there’s no way in hell we’ll see a return to the days of restricted female sexuality I highly doubt things are going to change for the better for women. The only thing women can hope for is that more men learn Game so that the 50% of guys they’re ignoring start turning themselves into the guys they do want (the 20% getting all the sex).

    That’s right, the more men that learn Game, the better it’ll be for girls. Your mind blown yet?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh


      Ha, I swallowed the red pill a long time ago, and I agree with your comment.