We are screaming FIRE! and everyone is just sitting around ignoring us.
Representative for the Centers for Disease Control
I’ve never written about STDs before. There are several reasons for this. One is that I know you’ve all had sex ed, and I’ve never felt like I have anything to add to the always good advice: Wrap It Up. However, three things happened recently that have got me thinking not about STDs themselves, but about how we behave when we suspect we have one, get tested, and share this information with current and future partners.
1. The first thing that happened is that April is STD Awareness Month.
2. The second thing that happened is that I received this email from a reader:
When I was younger (read teenage, dumb and thought I was in love) I ended up contracting herpes from my then boyfriend. I didn’t know he had it, never asked and he never told. I can’t blame it all on him since I allowed him to skip protection and I now know that some men don’t even realize that they have it. Now, this puts me in a sticky situation when it comes to dating and hook ups. I have always been upfront and honest about my situation with any perspective partner and usually tell them in a neutral setting with out any of the sexual tension. I tend to prefer a FWB because of this as opposed to a casual hook up.
Considering that the CDC estimates that approximately in 1 in 6 people aged 14-49 have genital herpes, it’s something bound to rear it’s ugly head in the hook up culture. What are your thoughts on the subject? How do you see it when it comes to telling a potential partner? The impact it can have on young people considering that it’s so reviled in our culture, even to the point of Times magazine calling it ‘The New Scarlet Letter’ at one point? I’m not so much looking for advice as like I said, I’ve come to terms with and am always honest with a sexual partner (I figure, if you want me bad enough, you’ll wrap it LOL!), but I know back when I got it that I was young scared and never wanted to have sex again so if that was me, how many other young people are in a similar situation?
3. The third thing that happened was that a young woman I know realized something was up with her lady parts and went to get tested.
She had had sex without a condom, so she figured she had gotten very unlucky. Here was her mantra as she waited for all the various test results:
Please, please, please don’t let it be herpes. Chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhea, fine, whatever. Just not herpes. Please.
Obviously, no STD is fun. It totally sucks to catch a bug from another person during sex. It’s genital herpes, though, that most often strikes fear into the hearts of people, because it is incurable. Genital herpes is forever. The infections this woman prayed for are easy peasy – heavy antibiotics, no drinking for a few days, and you’re done. HPV? Horrible, but the vaccine helps a lot, and it generally “goes away” after a while. AIDS? So rare on campus and among straight people that it’s rarely even included in routine STD testing.
The Facts
There are a million new cases of herpes each year, 2/3 of which occur in people younger than 25. Researchers estimate that 1/3 of college students will contract genital herpes by the time they graduate.
One-third
It’s very confusing to talk about herpes, because there are four different possible permutations. For starters, there’s type 1 and type 2. Then there’s mouth and genitals.
1. Genital to Genital (Type 2)
- 2/3 of new genital infections.
- Responsible for 90-95% of recurrences.
- 90% of those who have HSV-2 infection do not know that they are infected.
- 90% chance of recurrence in the first year.
- Recurrent outbreaks are usually milder and briefer, and typically occur four to five times per year.
- Outbreaks become less frequent and less severe over time, and usually end in 5-6 years.
- 70% of transmission occurs when there is no outbreak, or any symptoms during shedding period.
2. Mouth to Genital (Type 1)
- Transmitted through giving and receiving oral sex.
- Causes about 1/3 of new genital infections.
- About 75% of new genital infections in college students.
- 50-60% chance of recurrence in the first year.
- Then only recurs about once every other year.
- Produces less viral shedding than Type 2.
3. Mouth to Mouth (Type 1)
Big whup. Not worth discussing.
4. Genital to Mouth (Type 2)
- Rare but it can happen.
- After recovery from a possible first episode, of little consequence, i.e., not likely to reactivate and cause signs or symptoms.
Who Gets It?
For ages 14-49:
- Type 2 prevalence is nearly twice as high among women (21%) as men (11%).
Women are vulnerable to the microscopic tears that make transmission more likely.
- Type 2 is more than three times higher among African-Americans (39%) than whites (12%).
- The infection rate among African-American women was 48%.
John Douglas, MD, Director of the STD Division of the CDC:
It is quite clear that this increased rate of infection in African-American women is not due to increased risk behavior.
- The infection rate was roughly 4% among people who reported having just one sex partner ever, compared to almost 27% for those who reported 10 or more partners.
Susan Walsh, blogger:
It is quite clear that the increased rate of infection among the promiscuous is due to increased risk behavior.
The Psychology of Herpes
1. We’re too trusting, and we don’t verify.
A recent study by the University of Iowa was published in the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. The goal of the study was to determine the effect of non-romantic sex on STD rates. I know you won’t be surprised to learn the study’s primary finding:
For both genders, having sex with a friend made someone less likely to be monogamous.
Duh. People having several sexual partners at a time is very common in hookups or FWB relationships. This increases risk in obvious ways. However, there’s also another disturbing finding: in FWBs in particular, people having sex with friends tend to assume that their friends are STD-free. Peggy Giordano, Professor of Sociology at Bowling Green State University says:
When people have sex with a friend, they tend to be more trusting that the person doesn’t have a sexually transmitted disease and therefore fail to use a condom. If you’ve known a person for a while, you don’t have that vigilance. You’re probably not going to ask them to go and get tested for STDs.
Sex with an ex is also considered very high risk, since you really have no way of knowing who they’ve been with since you broke up. The prevalence of “sexual involvement in nonromantic contexts” is expected to contribute to a steady increase in STD transmission.
2. We have a casual attitude about a very serious subject.
In a piece called Why Isn’t Random Hooking Up Scary Anymore? , writer Gretchen Voss shares a frightening story:
“I don’t ask questions that I don’t want to know the answers to,” says 27-year-old Jenny* with a laugh. That’s why she hasn’t asked the three men she’s currently sleeping with about their sexual pasts. And when they inquire about hers, she lies. They don’t know she’s had sex with dozens of guys—instead she cops to six, the magic number that she and her friends have decided sounds most acceptable.
For now, Jenny is focused on her public relations career in Philadelphia and has no interest in pursuing a committed relationship. “If you’re with multiple people, you can’t get your heart broken,” she says. Having casual sex keeps her safe, at least emotionally. There’s the dude downstairs—a friend’s ex—with whom she could never have a relationship outside the bedroom. There’s the old pal who is “just a friend with benefits, nothing else,” who Facebooks her for latenight booty calls. “I’ll go over and we’ll have sex, and then I won’t hear from him for two weeks,” she says. “And I’m totally cool with it.”
I will resist the urge to rail at the insanity of this woman, who is surely headed for the trash heap in one way or another. Suffice it to say that this attitude is not uncommon, and the health implications are obvious.
3. It’s very easy to get away with not disclosing your status.
It’s hard to determine who gave you herpes. Most people who are infected don’t know it – they are carriers but have never had an outbreak. So when you hook up with Teddy, and you get herpes, Teddy will say, “No way! I don’t have it!” And he may be telling the truth. You have no way of knowing. I have heard stories of couples where the girl has contracted herpes, accused her boyfriend of cheating, and he is so insistent that he doesn’t have it he turns around and accuses her of cheating. In fact, it is very plausible that neither cheated.
It’s also the reality that people who have no symptoms do not want to take the blood test. They don’t want to find out, and be told they now have to inform all sexual partners. Talk about a buzzkill.
Here’s how the testing works:
Herpes can be cultured, and there’s also a blood test for antibodies. A culture can tell you whether you have Type 1 or 2. It can also tell you if this is a true primary outbreak.
- If you are in a monogamous relationship, and you get a positive culture but a negative blood test, you do have it, and got it from your most recent partner.
- If you have had more than one partner, it’s not possible to pinpoint which one infected you.
- If both the culture and blood test are positive, the infection is not brand new, so it may be impossible to ever know who gave it to you.
Only the first scenario can give you the information as to whom, but it cannot tell you about that person’s history of breakouts. There is obviously a lot of wiggle room here when it comes to fessing up.
It should be noted that you are required by law in most states to disclose this information to your partner. Knowingly infecting a partner is against the law, and numerous high-profile celebrities have been sued for this, including Paris Hilton and Derek Jeter.
What You Should Do
1. You must always, always, always use a condom during sex.
It does not eliminate the risk, but it does reduce it significantly.
2. Oral sex is the overlooked culprit.
It accounts for 3/4 of new infections at college. I know you aren’t going to start using dental dams, so all I can say is that you should check to make absolutely sure the guy does not have a fever blister or cold sore. It’s no guarantee. You’ll have a much better sense of this if you are in a monogamous relationship. It sucks, but the truth is that a guy who’s got a teensy tiny cold sore on the way can plant Type 1 herpes on your vag, and that is genital herpes.
3. If you decide to enter a monogamous relationship, and you want to go bare, you should insist on testing for both of you.
Lots of couples go together, but if you don’t you need to see your partner’s clean bill of health. Unromantic? Perhaps. Too bad.
4. If you are getting sexy with someone who seems particularly unconcerned about contracting at STD, put your pants back on.
Guys who boast about “rawdogging” are almost certainly already infected.
5. If you get herpes, be rational as you try to determine where you got it, keeping in mind all of the uncertainty of tracing the infection.
If you are certain about who gave it to you, you can sue and try to obtain medical records.
6. If you already have herpes, there is some comfort in knowing that outbreaks do tend to abate over time, even in the worst cases.
Talk to potential partners before having sex, obviously, and tell them exactly where things stand. It’s your moral obligation.
7. You are not alone.
By the time you’re a senior in college, you can look around a lecture hall of 300 and figure that 100 of you are in the same boat. There is actually an online dating sight for people with herpes.
8. Herpes prevention may be on the way.
Though research efforts to develop a vaccine have failed to date, there is a very promising vaccine trial that began in February. BioVex of Woburn, MA is conducting Phase I trials of its product ImmunoVex on 42 subjects in the UK. Animal studies have shown the vaccine to be almost completely effective. Their method is new – they have deleted five of the virus’s genes. If all goes well, the vaccine could be available in less than five years. The vaccine would not be therapeutic – if you’ve got herpes already, it won’t help. However, in couples where one partner has the virus, the other person could get vaccinated and remain immune.
Herpes has been called the gift that keeps on giving. It’s painful, both physically and emotionally. You cannot be too careful. The best piece of advice I can give you is this:
Limit your number of sexual partners.
Sources:
http://yoshi2me.com/hsv1-hsv2.html
http://www.collegesextalk.com/questions/diseases.htm
http://www.webmd.com/genital-herpes/news/20100309/cdc-genital-herpes-rates-still-high
http://www.herpesonline.org/faq.html
Related posts:
{ 83 comments… read them below or add one }
If I get the HPV vaccine on my parents insurance can they find out?
Here is something that I suspect happens.
Some people have categories for their partners and decide whether to treat that person as relationship-worthy or not, early on. They also decide whether the potential partner is worthy of disclosure based on whether that person is "relationship-worthy." Meaning, often, looks and status.
I think these people rationalize that if a partner had sex with them quickly, that person isn't worthy of disclosure and is fair game. "Well he or she hopped into bed with me, so he or she is a (bad name) anyway and knew the risk he or she was taking." Whereas if they met someone of "relationship worthiness," they know they dang well better treat disclosure in an above-board manner or they will lose that person AND get a rep among the set they care about.
That is cynical but I think that's exactly what goes on.
Therefore, if I were going out there hooking up, or having sex quickly, I feel very strongly that I would be in a lot of guys' mental "Not disclosure worthy" category. Their "She knew what she was getting into" category. Their, "Well, she was out in a bar" category.
I am not saying that's how people should think. I'm saying that's how I think a lot of people DO think.
I think the best way to be deemed "Disclosure-Worthy" is to be in the other person's social circle that they care about what kind of rep they get. That doesn't happen if you are the less affluent, unsuspecting, freshman at a frat party, or a stranger in a bar.
I also think a lot of people tell themselves they can't transmit except during an outbreak. They refuse to accept that transmission can happen without an outbreak. Therefore, they maintain they do not need to disclose if it's not during an outbreak. They take Valtrex and business as usual. I've seen a discussion of this on Salon.com with lots of people angrily saying you can't transmit when not having an outbreak.
I think this is one of the biggest reasons hooking up is dangerous–because you are not likely to be on the other person's "disclosure-worthy" list unless you fit their image of a highly desirable person in their social circle who could give them a rep in their circle.
Sweetie, I don't know much about medical billing, but I'm pretty sure they would find out. They're bound to get a bill at some point from the insurance company, showing who paid what. If you're worried about confidentiality, I would go to Planned Parenthood. You probably won't be charged, and you will certainly have privacy. Good luck.
Wow, Snowdrop this makes a lot of sense. I'm sure you're right. In fact, I'd go further. If a third of college students will get infected, and a third will graduate virgins, that means a much higher number of sexually active kids are infected. People in a regular hookup rotation might well assume that "We all have it, I don't need to bother worrying about this." Or about a new freshman, say, "She'll have it soon enough, it might as well be from me."
And yes, people are in denial about when they can transmit. They shouldn't be, because they are told when they're diagnosed that they shed the virus even when not having an outbreak, but they choose to ignore this inconvenient fact to justify their behavior.
I love the comment by "Luvwisdom" on that article you linked to. This is just a part: "Your body isn't worth wasting on casual encounters. Or people who won't be there for you if you get herpes or have their babies."
You may have a point that that is the outlook, but if that is the case I find it very irresponsible. That type of thought process doesn't help people who do suffer gain any better of a name. The more people who don't tell people and just perpetuate the cycle end up making it worse for the people who do have it and are honest about it. In my opinion, I think that anyone who displays that kind of behavior hasn't really come to terms with their situation.
See, I'm the young woman who sent Susan the email. This is a subject I've felt strongly about since I learned and came to terms with my situation. Anyone that I've slept with has known. I have had one night stands, LTRs and FWB's. My one night stands I'll tell them before we've ever left where we are. My FWB I'll normally sit down at a diner and explain the situation and LTR's I will tell while we are dating after we've built a solid connection but before we have sex.
I view it in the following manner – If I respect someone enough to sleep with them (And yes, I do have an iota of respect for one night stands) then I owe them my honesty. I tried once not to say anything during a one night stand, but ended up telling them before all clothing came off. I felt so guilty that I couldn't enjoy myself in at all. I realized after the fact that it was a bad idea to tell them once things are hot and heavy because it put the guy in a bad situation.
1.) Could he honestly focus enough to make a rational decision?
2.) Did he really want to look like an ass and kick me out of his bed?
I also know that I couldn't respect myself if something happened to the person I slept with. I know how betrayed and hurt that I was when I found out, I would feel horrid if someone else had to go through the same situation I did.
Was it hard being honest at first? Absolutely! However, I've learned that it is just one part of me and that I cannot let it define me as a person or sexual creature. Every man that I have told has appreciated my honesty and has not turned me away. It comes down to the idea that honesty is the best policy!
Robin, you are a caring and responsible person who I hope is not too much in the minority. I wish I did have stats on that. In the discussion I mentioned on Salon.com, which took place maybe three years ago, wait let me see if I can find it… nope, sorry, I can't find it now … anyway, there were other commenters saying they had disclosed and were in happy marriages and long-term relationships with loving partners who understood.
This & the entire STD/STI crisis is a big deal, and not just with the younger crowds either. Condoms do work, and are highly effective, when used properly in preventing disease. No matter what the RTL's & anti-public health forces might claim otherwise. The real failure rate in this scenario are not the condoms, but the lack of caring, planning, foresight, awareness, or preparation for adult sexual encounters in such environments. And truly this is now a world wide hazard, there's literally no 'hidden' place where these well known disease risks are not present. It's sort of like chancing to drink the water in some far off distant land. Most likely you might survive, but it may just scar you for life if you're unlucky enough. So yes, it's relatively simple to avoid all the hassles, behaviorally. When sexing, wrap it up!
And the main reason for this? Even if they may want to inform you, they May Not Know Themselves that they're infected. That often represents a plurality of the problem. That along with the ever present favorite of denial in it's many deadly forms, (sometimes as 'innocent' as 'I don't want to know…') often presents the 'un-afflicted party' with the distinct possibility of a chance exposure to infection. It's only a matter of time & yes, numbers. Cheers, 'VJ'
That is love wisdom.
I don't disagree – My Aunt has it and has been married for years with kids… Again, honesty works
Robin, you are very brave to step up and share your story. Thank you. It adds a lot to the post, even though I would never have asked this or expected it. Your behavior is above reproach in all respects. I wrote this article for a couple of reasons – to lay out the reality as I see it, and also to try and communicate that this is not the end of romance, sex and love for people who contract herpes. So many young people have it that one cannot really be a pariah. And of course, it means that many young people are familiar with the dilemma. Most college kids have good friends in this boat. But many suffer in silence, and that is not necessary. Your story proves that.
VJ, your usual signoff of Cheers has a chilling effect in this particular comment. Everything you say is true – the nature of herpes is such that there is plenty of ignorance around, and then the expected deceit as well. It's a particularly tricky virus to pin down and diagnose or source. Condoms obviously are important, but we know that they don't get used in college at least a third of the time. The bottom line is that it makes sense to limit our exposure by limiting your casual sexual encounters.
If your number is 10, the infection rate is 27%. That's a lot of people hooking up who are going to run out of luck.
Thanks so much. I was determined to find the right tone – I'm glad you feel I did so.
You have a very good point and one I think we forget about sometimes. Depending on the study that you ready 60% and upwards of infected people are misdiagnosed with out a culture/blood test because the outbreak doesn't present severely or in a normal pattern, while others estimate that 90% of the infected don't know that they have it.
Taking that plus the recent studies that shedding of the virus happens more often than originally thought, can make transmission easier and more prevalent. It's a good reason to ensure you always wrap it and/or if not get tested regularly for various STD's including herpes. Being afraid of the results is a piss poor excuse not to take care of your own sexual health or others.
"If your number is 10, the infection rate is 27%. That's a lot of people hooking up who are going to run out of luck. "
It's easy to get to higher than 10 doing the now-normal thing of holding out for three dates and then having two months of don't ask-don't tell until someone says "are we exclusive?" and someone says "I'm not ready for a relationship." <— I'm not meaning to be a hypocrite–that's what I used to do till I decided I couldn't handle it emotionally. It was my emotions that made me change my mind and decide the going three-date rule wasn't for me; I wasn't thinking about the germs, but the germs don't care. I don't see how holding out for three dates and then two months of don't ask-don't tell till someone says "I'm not ready for a relationship" is enough to protect me from someone who doesn't care about me enough to disclose either intentions or infections.
someone who doesn't care about me enough to disclose either intentions or infections.
That is powerful. BTW, I've heard that STD cases are rising fast in the 65+ cohort. I can't even imagine that – but it's happening.
I agree 100%, but you know enough about human nature to know that people will avoid a firm diagnosis if possible. The tragedy of this is that it puts others at risk. It could be many others, depending on your habits.
I have a friend who only found out she had herpes after she got married to her second husband (she got pregnant by her first when she was only eighteen, then had several long term relationships in between) so she doesn't know if she got it from this present husband or from someone else prior. Apparently she never manifested any signs or symptoms until she had her first outbreak a few years ago. What we notice about her condition is that stress usually makes her more prone to outbreaks, and what sucks is that she has to live with this condition for the rest of her life.
People need to take STD protection very seriously, because in some cases you do end up with practically a life sentence, or death. I don't understand why, considering all the knowledge out there on the internet today, that those involved in the hook up culture can be so cavalier about this. All I can come up with is that when you're young, you feel invincible and think this can't happen to you. Well, it can, so, as Susan says, WRAP IT UP!
Good to see you ATS! You can see by the quote at the start of this article that the CDC can't understand why people are not more concerned about this. It's like everyone has their head in the sand, thinking it won't happen to them. I imagine it's like the risk of pregnancy in the 1950s – people regularly rolled those dice and lost.
LoL! It's a lot easier with the anonymity of the internet to step up and share! But I do try to be honest about it. My friends all know and if I need to I will tell others. It's gotten out as malicious gossip, but I've always managed to weather the storm so to say.
I really appreciate your putting it out there the way that you did! It's so very important now that people know and I think you did an excellent job doing so. You did it justice and were so very respectful
Very very true! I know I was in denial for about a week of my 1st outbreak and if that's with visible symptoms – I can imagine how hard it would be if there were none!
One of the big incentives to pursue risky behavior is improving the experience for guys. I've argued before that uncovered oral is usually preferable to covered intercourse in terms of sensations.
Having said the above, I have heard very good things about female condoms, at least for guys. Haven't had the chance to try them yet, but may do so in the near term.
Does anyone have experiences with them and would like to share? Any pointers on the different designs available?
Il Capo, I thought uncovered oral (for the guy) was a huge problem for women, but it seems that while it's painful when they get Type 2 herpes in the mouth, it rarely recurs. The biggest problem is that they can give it to another guy during a BJ if they do have another outbreak or shed the virus.
I too have heard very good things about female condoms. I think it was Hamby Dammit who said that they are actually fine, because the penis is not sheathed and can move freely, getting that all-important friction. I don't know about brands, or even how available they are, and I can't really picture how they get put on – maybe the penis pushes it in? I'm sure there's info online and also an easy source. I've heard they're not that easy to find at the typical pharmacy.
The other big oral risk is guys with cold sores going down on women, obvs. Since 75% of new college cases are Type 1 via oral sex, and for Type 2 twice as many women are infected as men, in terms of sheer numbers women have a lot more to worry about.
I'm very sorry to have to break it to you folks, but Oral Love is dead. Has been since, well before feminism actually. See here:http://www.boners.com/grub/805713.html
Sorry 'bout that… Cheers, 'VJ'
Since Oral died in 1951, I wonder how affected he was by having such a name? Or if that's what killed him at such a young age. I've seen whole books devoted to these kinds of names – what on earth could parents have been thinking?
Lets not forget the STDs that are curable but can also make you infertile.
I think outside of monogamous committed relationships everything needs a condom. How is this not being done at colleges? No glove no love has been said since the 80's. I think a girl saying "no you don't need that" to a condom would make me want to slowly back away and put my clothes on.
My recent post Sexy Move: Date Night – How It Actually Played Out
I have used female condoms back in the 90's. They are inserted kind of like a diaphragm, by pinching a ring. Another ring hangs outside and looks dumb but the woman has control of deciding to be in possession of it beforehand (A huge problem in birth control I think!)
One controversy that arose with the female condom was the perfect being enemy of the good. Instead of the practical solution of allowing women (especially in other cultures) the power to have their own condom and insert it themselves, some supposedly wanted the women to gain the power and assertiveness to insist the man wear a condom. I am not sure how much impact this controversy had, but it was the early 90's and there did seem to be a lot of controversy about "We should teach women from other cultures to stand up for themselves and insist men wear condoms" rather than "We should give women from other cultures the female condom."
Bizarrely, it thought even this much was too long to post…anyway…continued…
The diaphragm can be more hidden and inserted ahead of time. I am not sure why the diaphragm became so unpopular either.
I was told (hi Mom!) the female condom was better for the guy… (it was made of polyurethane)
but it looked funny and tended to squeak.
Of course, condoms were invented as contraceptives. Now they are agents of hygiene… which is not quite the same thing. And they have also morphed into a moral issue. I may be wrong but I sense that once we make condoms the dominant moral issue where sex is concerned, we are also saying that if you use a condom anything goes. I wonder whether the obsession with condom use is persuading young people that any action is moral as long as a condom is in use.
We know, as Susan mentioned, and as we ought to repeat, condoms are not foolproof. Even if they are used correctly and religiously, they do not always cover all lesions. As it happens, young people who hook up fairly often are not likely to use condoms all the time. So I am wondering whether, once young people are persuaded that condoms shield them from all moral judgment, they take the next logical step and try a little transgression… just to see how it feels.
My recent post Psychiatry and Psychotherapy Today
I think the biggest impediment to condom use at college is the sheer amount of alcohol being consumed before many sexual encounters. There's also the factor I mentioned where people who know each other tend to be complacent about this – as in "He's a nice guy, so he's probably clean." Of course, this makes absolutely no sense. Finally, anyone who is already infected will be tempted to keep it secret in a casual hookup, and will have no incentive to use a condom. It's unethical, but I believe it happens frequently. This puts the other person (almost always the woman) in the uncomfortable position of insisting. It shouldn't be awkward, but many women find it so.
P.S. Excellent point about fertility. It is jeopardized by many of the STDs that women would prefer. Most of these are most problematic if left untreated, and I think women feel, incorrectly, that they won't leave it untreated, so it won't be a problem. Since STDs can be asymptomatic, this is false confidence.
"Prefered STDs" wow hook up culture is a dark world lol.
My recent post Sexy Move: Date Night – How It Actually Played Out
You raise some interesting questions here, Stuart. I think it's possible that using a condom makes people feel safer when experimenting with sex, that there is an "enabling" factor. But if that's true, it's still only one of many in our contemporary culture. If having sex were dangerous no matter what, then yes, I think we'd see a lot less of it. That's why I often cite some new horrendous virus as a possible restraint on female sexuality. Many people would stop having casual sex if they were worried they could catch the plague from it. But not all people would – gay male risk taking has waxed and waned over the years considerably, and it's only since the AIDS drug cocktail has been made available that this point has been made moot. It seems to be a question of deciding which is the greater problem, and I think the immediate threat of disease will prevail every time.
As for your point about transgression, you're the expert on human behavior, so I'll defer to you here. Again, using the gay male community as an example, even at the height of AIDS it was popular in certain circles to have "Russian roulette" sex – no condom permitted. There is clearly some percentage of people who will always live dangerously – probably feeling that the risk taking enhances the sex by giving an extra boost to the dopamine surge.
It sure is, hence this sentiment:
Chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhea, fine, whatever. Just not herpes. Please.
Getting into a monogamous relationship, then marrying, must feel like a huge relief.
"Again, using the gay male community as an example, even at the height of AIDS it was popular in certain circles to have "Russian roulette" sex – no condom permitted. There is clearly some percentage of people who will always live dangerously – probably feeling that the risk taking enhances the sex by giving an extra boost to the dopamine surge. "
And who pays for the expensive treatments and medical care for the ones who contract AIDS through this vile, inhumane, sub-animal behaviour?
Better they would have played Russion Roulette with guns instead. It wouldn't cost honest tax payers.
Ah, this is a frequent debate in the U.S. Who pays for the treatment of Americans who eat so much terrible food they are morbidly obese and must make their way around on a scooter? Who pays for lung cancer caused by smoking, or a liver transplant for a patient with cirrhosis?
We've had suits here where people have claimed they were knowingly deceived about the other person's HIV status.
The insurance companies pay = we all pay.
Thanks for the info, Snowdrop.
Re: the diaphragm, AFAIK, it only protects against pregnancy, not STDs. It's a physical replacement of the pill and not much else.
This needs to be very clear! The diaphragm is ONLY for pregnancy. Young women want no part of it, tho. It's practically extinct. Why not use a contraceptive sponge instead if you want to go that route? Or the Nuva Ring, which is getting a lot of attention.
Condoms, whether trad or female, will obviously have contraceptive effect, but are really the ONLY good way of preventing an STD, and for some even condoms don't do much. For example, HPV is often contagious from skin on the abdomen, upper thighs, etc.
At some point, virginity will come out of the woodwork as a shocking new cultural phenomenon.
Just like the dotcom bubble and the housing bubble, things run away in one direction only until the time where they reverse violently, and MOST OF THE TIME UNEXPECTEDLY.
We're approaching that point now.
When a generation of young people realizes that they will never match or exceed the sexual exploits of the previous group, they will rebel by rejecting that previous group's behavior wholesale.
I fully expect to see girls proudly wearing t-shirts that say "virgin" and with no irony intended.
Chastity will be the "new black", as it were.
“At some point, virginity will come out of the woodwork as a shocking new cultural phenomenon.
Just like the dotcom bubble and the housing bubble, things run away in one direction only until the time where they reverse violently, and MOST OF THE TIME UNEXPECTEDLY.
We’re approaching that point now.
When a generation of young people realizes that they will never match or exceed the sexual exploits of the previous group, they will rebel by rejecting that previous group’s behavior wholesale.
I fully expect to see girls proudly wearing t-shirts that say “virgin” and with no irony intended.
Chastity will be the “new black”, as it were.”
And it won’t make a difference for virgin men who will still be attacked, ridiculed, denigrated, and libeled as “Soldinis waiting to happen”.
Go to jezebel.com
Type "herpes" in the search box.
And you'll see tons of thread where the message is the "herpes isn't the problem, it's the stigma associated with". And if anyone admits to not wanting have to deal with such a disease, or any of the other complications of other STD's, you'll get thrashed for "slut shaming" or "everyone has it anyway, so shut up!"
There's a passage from "I, Claudius", where the protagonist mentions that he had a "professional woman" living with him with the understanding that they would not have relations with anyone else, to avoid "venereal disease". Seems like we've come full circle from those times…
But that's so true – Herpes isn't the hard part, it is the stigma. I've had it for 10 years and it's been typical – A violent outbreak first, a few more through out the 1st year or two and tapering off as the years go on. I haven't had one in about 2 years at this point.
It's never been dealing with the disease that has been a hard time, it's always the stigma. It truly is like a Scarlett Letter as Times put it almost 30 years ago. If you have it people make all kinds of assumptions that you are a slut, that you sleep around, that you are a dirty girl. I caught it from my 2nd sexual partner. Two people and because of one little word vindictive people label me a loose woman. Now I won't try to lie and say that I've limited myself to just those 2 partners in the years since, but no where near the numbers some of my friends have managed to rack up. Somehow I have to lowest count, but none of that matters because *gasp* I contracted herpes.
I can remember a time very vividly where I told a 'friend' and she decided to tell just about everyone we knew. I would walk in a room and people would look at me strange and whispers would start, or the herpes jokes would come out. You know the fun ones like "What's the difference between love and herpes? Herpes lasts forever." Or my favorite tasteless act: I'd use the restroom and someone would make a snide comment telling the next person to make sure they wipe the seat down.
I had to swallow the hurt, summon my pride and talk to them about it. I had to explain myself, how it happened and the result. You wanna know the worst part? Most of them didn't even really understand what herpes was – To them it was just a disease that was the punchline in a joke.
I still wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy, but it is so true that it's not the disease as much as the way it can destroy self confidence due to perception.
Ugh – That truly is scary that people feel like that!
Is it bad that I would rather have something like herpes despite the social stigma as its not going to affect my ability to have children later on as opposed to something that could prevent me from the joy of a child?
The CDC estimates that 40% of women who leave chlamydia or gonorrhea untreated will end up with PID. Considering that most cases are asymptomatic, this is terrifying. Annual testing (or more often depending on how sexually active one is) of course helps with this, but how many college students in the hook up culture really do this?
*shudders*
I agree that this is very possible. When I wrote the post about the backlash against casual sex, I was surprised how many people feel strongly that it isn't real. I think it is – though I don't have a clear sense of the timeline. As you say, this is often generational. Each generation rebels in some fashion, and this is one obvious area for dissent. Perhaps we will see a strong swing in the other direction within the next 10 years – I certainly think it's possible.
BTW, this will discredit feminism and women's studies further. As the older "NOW" generation of femnists dies out, there really won't be a new generation to take their place. That will also be interesting.
As to chastity being the new black, and I can imagine a time when people won't marry without a clean bill of health. Anyone can lie about their sexual past, at least in theory, but a medical test that shows antibodies won't. If people start demanding that information it will provide a powerful incentive to change behavior.
Welcome, white and nerdy, thanks for commenting. I'm not so sure you're right about this. If women are under significant pressure to be virgins, there will be far fewer available for sex. This would mean a return to a few women acting as the local "bad girls" and a huge increase in the use of prostitutes. Male virginity would become commonplace again, and the number of committed relationships would increase. Many couples would lose their virginity with each other.
I do wonder, though, about how this would affect the timing of marriage. Currently, the average woman goes 15 years between the onset of menses and marriage. That's a very long period of chastity, much longer than at any other time in history.
The most alarming thing about this line of thinking among young women at Jezebel is that when "slut shaming" is the worst thing that can happen, we've opened the door for some truly horrendous behavior/choices.
There are many women like Robin – and men too, who have a low number, but got very unlucky the first time around. There are also plenty of promiscuous people who are silent carriers – they are "lucky" in the sense that they continue on in blissful ignorance and experience no consequences for risky behavior.
The women at Jezebel who have it want you to shut up because it is in their best interests if the infection rate in the population is 100%. They are actually working to promote the spread of herpes. Which is unconscionable.
Funny you should mention I, Claudius – I often think of it when contemplating topics for posts. Can bad morals alone bring down a society? Or does it require a perfect storm of conditions? I wonder how the U.S. in 2010 compares. I'm sure a few PhD candidates have studied this. Of course, any such claims would be vociferously debunked by the media.
I hardly know how to comment. All I can say is that the women having sex with you unprotected are certifiably insane, or suffering from complete self-loathing (low self-esteem just isn't a strong enough diagnosis here). I don't doubt the truth of your claims, I just shake my head at the incredible stupidity of their behavior. You're taking a chance with your own health, and that's your right. You've done the cost/benefit and accepted the risk. For a woman to have unprotected sex with a man who is openly promiscuous, when a condom doesn't decrease her pleasure at all? Wow. Just wow.
Susan, you'd be surprised at how many female "losers" there are out there. These are the women that pump and dump sluts like Vincent Ignatius. Well, at least they don't have LTRs with him.
How ironic that he writes a blog on "the perfect wife". LOL. He'll never get even an imperfect one.
You are so right about this. I think for young people, who feel generally invulnerable, prevention gets overlooked and treatment becomes the focus if necessary. They know that bacterial is better than viral, but they don't know the details about these particular diseases and their symptoms. In fact, to be honest, I learned a lot researching this article – I had never really understood the Type 1 vs. Type 2 stuff, for example. And I was shocked to learn that 75% of new cases are Type 1 via oral sex.
This is my problem with the manwhores. You may believe you're indomitable, but you are not immune.
Herpes is probably my biggest fear and I'm not the type to be neurotic at all. I'm not afraid of dying. I love public speaking. But I hook-up with so many random girls that I'm surprised I haven't contracted anything yet.
I'm usually safe, but I go without a condom when I feel a girl is "clean". Bad idea? Maybe, but sometimes I'd rather masturbate than have sex with a condom. I'll use a condom with all the girls I hook up with this summer and get tested when I get back in the country and before I start having sex with any of my regulars again.
My recent post The Perfect Wife
I don't think its the woman's pleasure that comes into play when a woman considers if she should make the man use a condom or not. I noticed something recently that I have a feeling pushes women into allowing their partners not to use one.
My current partner was in a 4 yr relationship, so due to that hasn't used one on a regular basis in a while. Every so often, he gets frustrated with having to use one and make small comments like "I wish I didn't have to use this" or "There's nothing more mood killing then pausing to wrap it." He knows that he doesn't have a choice, but still makes these comments.
When I read what Vincent Ignatius wrote it reminding me of that as well as other partners lamenting having to use one. If it wasn't for my condition, I might be in the same boat with the other young women who allow men to do this because of how men put it out there. Men fuss about them constantly! Sly comments like that are bound to get to women and instead of just telling the guy to be a man about it and wrap it, I think women are more likely to just let them go bare… Thoughts?
"AIDS? So rare on campus and among straight people that it’s rarely even included in routine STD testing."
Just a few corrections Susan. AIDS is not an STI, HIV is. HIV may lead to AIDS, and will if treatment is not provided. HIV is not uncommon among straight people in developing nations, most notably Africa.
http://www.thebody.com/content/art32330.html
I don't know of any psychologically sound individuals that want to acquire HIV, ergo, I'd rather err on the side of compassion than deny treatment to individuals that seroconverted due to negligence by their partner, negligence in their education, accidental condom breakage, birth by an HIV+ mother, treating an HIV infected individual, etc.
Absolutely, no question. This level of thrill-seeking signals real emotional disturbance, but even if it didn't we can't be picking and choosing. Or making any moral judgments. That's where the worry about death panels comes from. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that we shouldn't pay for diseases that are acquired through risky behavior. The best that we can do is encourage prevention – which is really why I wrote this post.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. Subtle and sometimes not so subtle pressure is often present. I don't understand this – perhaps the man feels that since the woman wants it she is trying to protect herself and is therefore "safe?" Obviously, in your case you are being honest, so he should really just shut up and wrap it! Or perhaps men worry less, understanding that they're half as likely to get it?
VI, I suspect you are deliberately trying to shock here. Truthfully, this attitude is shocking, but I'm well aware that it's common – hence the high rate of STD transmission. It's a miracle that you don't have it. The title of your most recent post: The Perfect Wife? SMH. Will you be the perfect husband?
Of course, MKandefer, sorry about the misinformation. In fact, it has been a very long time since I heard of a full-blown AIDS case, so it may be fair to say that at this point, HIV leads to AIDS infrequently. Since I was in my 20s during the early 80s, I remember a very different climate, and the fact that colleges don't routinely test for HIV really says a lot about how rare it has become.
I cited American gay male behavior because I am more familiar with it, and also because I know that HIV is primarily a heterosexual problem in Africa, with very different cultural factors that affect behavior.
I encourage everyone to head over and read VI's blog, but must post some juicy tidbits here. Vincent Ignatius has minimal physical requirements for a wife. All he insists upon is soft pale skin with no redness, straight black or brown hair, and that she is in good shape. She should be the "ultimate accoutrement."
Vincent wants smarts but says he will seduce a retarded girl if she's hot. She should get the cultural references in the artsy movies he watches. She should be submissive, agreeable, whimsical, neurotic and fragrant. Finally, she should be patient enough to raise all the children HE wants.
HAHAHAHAHA
You can lead a whore to water but you can't make her think.
Dorothy Parker
Susan, you'd be surprised at how many female "losers" there are out there. These are the women that pump and dump sluts like Vincent Ignatius. Well, at least they don't have LTRs with him.
How ironic that he writes a blog on "the perfect wife". LOL. He'll never get even an imperfect one.
“I can imagine a time when people won’t marry without a clean bill of health.
I wouldn’t quite say that. I know of people who fell in love and really care about each other where one has an STD (herpes, AIDS) and the other doesn’t, and the one who doesn’t have it is happy to marry the person who does have it. In that same Salon.com article I mentioned, there were many reassuring voices who had met the “one” after they got herpes and the person who was the “one” was understanding and went on to marry them and have loving marriages. Also there are gay couples where one is positive and one is not. I wouldn’t want to discourage anyone and make them think loving partners are not out there–because there are. Love isn’t just about our bodies and the proof is that there are many loving couples where one partner has and STD and the other doesn’t…thanks
Robin I am having a hard time posting today but i am so sorry for the way people act. There are many topics about which many people can't seem to find a middle ground. Let me just repeat there are many loving couples married and together where one partner didn't have herpes, hpv, or AIDS and fell in love with someone who did, and they stayed together, because love is not about our bodies. I hope it lets me post.
Yeah here's another thought from I, Claudius.
People blame "Abrahamic Religions" for the fact we can't all do it in the road without guilt or complications.
Yet Augustus' call for bachelors to marry, his banishment of Ovid for Ovid's little game manual, and his banishing of his own daughter for doing it in the road, all happened before Rome ever heard of "Abrahamic Religions." Augustus and the ancient Romans of his era and before, got the idea from *somewhere* that marriage and constraint made for a strong society. WHERE DID THEY GET THAT IDEA … they had never yet heard of Abrahamic Religions.
Now, if, later, societies influenced by Abrahamic Religions blamed *only* the woman, that's another issue. Seems to me Augustus gave the men as much what-for as he did the women. But no, you could not just do it in the road and everything was roses, absent Abrahamic Religions.
have you ever tried a female condom Robin? Maybe it would help things a little better for both…just a thought.
I think Vincent is pulling our legs.
The women I sleep with don't know how promiscuous I am. The social circles I work my way through are fragmented enough that women rarely know of more than one or two other girls I've been with, and those girls usually seem clean enough that the new one doesn't think there's much of a risk. The fact that there are two other large universities nearby aids me in hiding girls from each other.
Most of the women I have sex with are graduate students, a relatively low risk population. Whenever I sleep with regular girls, I use a condom.
My recent post The Perfect Wife
I second that suggestion. I've tried the female condom and it was actually much better. It is very awkward, but the sensation is noticeably better than with any condom.
My recent post The Perfect Wife
I'm actually not trying to shock. The young women who read your blog would probably benefit from knowing that there are men like me around.
Define the perfect husband. It's different for every woman.
My recent post The Perfect Wife
I'm being very honest. Hiding behind my online pseudonym, I can unload a ton of baggage. If you read my blog, I'm not just blogging about womanizing, but also revealing how I lost my first love. I may be over the top at times, but that really is my life. The boring parts are missing because, well, they're boring.
My recent post The Perfect Wife
I thought he was talking about girls rebelling by being virgins not being pressured to be virgins. And who said any of this was logical?
Well, I don't think women will return to chastity entirely of their own accord. It could happen through rebellion, though, if men are part of it- and that carries with it pressures of its own. Societal, cultural, peer pressure could all come into play. That doesn't mean women won't participate willingly. Maybe influence is a better word that pressure. My point is that if casual sex decreases a lot, it's better for men – it means that the current behavior of a large number of women attempting to seduce Alpha for one night will cease, and the other men would have more opportunity.
People are ignorant and will act how they will – I didn't share for the sympathy, but I appreciate it all the same. I shared to show the ignorance of people. I know there is someone out there who I'll eventually end up with and be happy and I'm okay with that
Honestly – no. I'm not the one bothered by it, he is so IMHO he can put up or shut up LOL!
What if he paid for them and supplied them…I know when I was using them it would have made me feel better if the guy had done that…IF I COULD HAVE FOUND A RELATIONSHIP BACK THEN but that's another story.
If it's something he wants to try, I won't complain, I'd be willing to try them. The relationship is still in it's infancy where we are feeling out likes, dislikes, etc. If it makes it far enough to discuss things like that, I may bring it up as an option. As it stands, I think there is maybe about another month or so before I end up moving on for certain reasons.
LOL! We know that there are guys out there like you! And if you honestly think these women don't realize you are promiscuous, well, you're deluding yourself to some extent. We are smarter than most men give us credit for.
I'm curious what your standards are for a 'clean' girl. I'll put this out there: I'm in my upper 20's, middle middle class, I work in a professional environment, I'm not a party girl, not promiscuous, I always take care with my appearance and hygiene and I'm reasonably good looking. I'm well rounded and can carry on an intelligent conversation. If you met a girl like that would you make the assumption that she's 'clean'? Even if you were to talk to friends I may hang out with you wouldn't find out that I have herpes because my friends are respectful of my status and know that I'm honest about it. So how can you honestly be sure?
I'll even put that out there to anyone else who says they will sleep with a girl without protection if they think they are clean. How can you really tell??? People are constantly shocked when I tell them about my status. One of my ex's looked at me when I told him and said "Are you sure? You seem like such a nice girl!"
As for the perfect husband question you posed – I have no physical standards for a husband. I'm looking for someone who can be my best friend and who is sexually compatible with me. He simply needs to be able to make me laugh, listen to me, talk with me, and satisfy me in bed. Would I complain if he was tall, dark and handsome? Not at all! However I don't normally pick men for their looks. My last ex was taller than me, skinny tattooed and slightly goth and had a ponytail longer enough to move it when he sits. The one before him – Tallish, going a bit soft in the middle, rough redneck. The current FWB? Shorter than me when I wear heels (and I wear them alot), athletic with a bit of bad boy look.
That's where men and women differ a lot. I've talked with female friends and get similar responses. Physical attributes may play a part in getting our interest, but it's not normally the 1st thing on our lists. Men always seem to be after the trophy wife, see men divorcing for younger women. Every time I hear/see a list like yours, I immediately feel like I'm in Pleasantville!
Women aren't nearly as smart (or beautiful) as they think they are. I never claimed women didn't know that I was promiscuous, only that they don't know the extent of my promiscuity.
It's hard to gauge what my assessment of your cleanliness would be, but based on what you've written, I would assume you were filthy and work from there. If you were promiscuous when you were younger, it would either leave an indelible scar on your psyche or you have a masculine personality that would automatically put you in the dirty category. If you work in law or business, I would assume you were slutty. To me, middle middle class in a professional environment = normal.
None of this would make me think you were a bad person, just not attractive for a long-term relationship.
My recent post The Perfect Mistress
Amusing – And no, I don't work in law or business, I work in a technical field. I wasn't promiscuous when I was younger – If you'd read my earlier comments, you would know that I ended up with it from my 2nd partner. Getting it that early on in my sexual history has effectively been the best reason not to be promiscuous. It tends to make one a lot more conscious of the choices they are making when it comes to sex. However as I said, if you met me while out, you wouldn't have this fact until I decided to share (Which by the way, I am always honest with my partners, see above) and therefor only have the physical.
As you said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so that point I will not dispute. My intelligence? Again, I won't dispute the point. I have a feeling that any point or facts I bring up would be dismissed arbitrarily.
The extent of your promiscuity? I don't pretend to speak for all women, but if I know a man is as promiscuous in any manner, I automatically assume he is also rather licentious and therefore not worth my time. I define promiscuity when it comes to men I meet as more than one woman in a weekend on a regular basis. Are some men good at hiding this? Sure, but there are plenty of signs to look for that can tip a girl off.
Your girls may not know that you screwed one girl, came home, showered and proceeded to screw them if your as good as your ego tells you that you are, but unless they truly are dumb, they see you as the self centered arse. Now if they do see you for what you are, they stay for one of two reasons – they've gotten screwed over so many times they no longer care, or they think they can change you.
Your jaded opinion of women is truly frightening and saddening. I find it amusing that with your opinion of women you truly think that you are LTR worthy. I wish you the best of luck in you search for you perfect wife, and mistress – I can only assume that your next post will be on finding the perfect young girlfriend as it appears your going through the 3WF.
This conversation has inspired my newest post – on man sluts. Check it out!
It seems that people can get herpes through mouth-to-mouth contact.
Could herpes really be considered an STD if it can be spread by means other than sexual intercourse?
Oral Herpes Type 1 spread from mouth to mouth is NOT genital herpes. I explain in the post how Type 1 can be spread to the genitals during oral sex. Type 2 can also be spread to the mouth through oral sex, by the way. A lot of new cases today, especially in college, are Type 1 being transferred from mouth to genitals. So oral sex may be a more common way to contract herpes now than sexual intercourse.
If one of the partners does not have AIDS, that partner will soon have it.
Maybe it will go below eighteen for males and females. Who knows?
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