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How to Make Sure You Don’t Fall For a Player

Julie met James at a party. He was handsome and friendly. They talked all night and he requested her number, asking if it would be allright if he texted or called soon to plan a real date. She was flattered, and they exchanged digits. The next day he was texting repeatedly, wanting to meet up ASAP. Curious, she looked for him on Facebook. She saw that his profile pic was of a woman sliding a wedding ring onto a man’s hand. She couldn’t believe it could be him, but on his wall there he was thanking his dear friends for having shared his special day one month before.

Sara met David at a bar, and they had a great time dancing all night. He immediately suggested a followup. She checked him out on Facebook and saw that his status said in a relationship. She asked him about this and he denied that it was him. He claimed she had found another guy with his name. She requested that he friend her. He refused, but continued to harrass her to come out and meet up.

Brady and Liz knew each other slightly in high school, but that was four years ago. Suddenly he came out of nowhere, chatting her up online one night and texting for plans this summer when both get home. She was wary and joked, “I think you’re about four years too late.” He replied “I know I’m late but please don’t say I’m too late. You’re the one that got away.” After a month of constant attention, which Liz found flattering but a little sketchy, she saw a post on his wall from a friend saying it wouldn’t be long before he would be back home with his girlfriend, he must be psyched.

LESSON: DUDES! CHANGE YOUR PRIVACY SETTINGS!

It’s hard to get away with much in the new world of social media. Still, you can waste a fair amount of time and energy being played before you realize what’s up. It’s very difficult in the early stages of attraction to know the motives of the other person. Do they really like me? Do we want the same thing? It’s can also be very challenging to assess someone’s character objectively, especially if they’ve got you feeling butterflies. Let’s face it, infatuation is all about putting the other person on a pedestal, seeing them in the best possible light.

How can you be careful and still go with the flow? How can you enjoy yourself, knowing that there may be hell to pay down the road? There are no easy answers, but it pays to be on the lookout for the red flags that signify a person is not relationship material. I’ve learned from a lot of the guys here that they have ways of figuring this out, based on a woman’s social and sexual history, as well as her behavior. They report that there are “tells” that a discriminating man can use to rule women in or out as a girlfriend. I can’t attest to the effectiveness of their methods, but it got me thinking about how women can use their own intuition and powers of observation to know when they’re dealing with a player.

Here are my rules for qualifying a man for your attention and affection:

1. Understand that he is in it for the sex.

All men are in it for the sex. The question is, are they open to the idea of being in a committed relationship? Men may not even know this themselves at first. Until you reach the point where you have established compatibility and real affection, you must operate under the assumption that he is not seeking anything more than sex.

2. Ignore what he says.

Men say a lot of things to flatter women. Players are obviously better at this than everyone else.

He’s really into it? Doubt it.

He is thinking about you all the time? Mmm-hmmm.

He would never do anything to hurt you? Never means in the next hour or so.

I’m not hooking up with anyone else right now. Literally, right now. Last night? Different story.

He is in sales mode. He wants P in V. Very few men are looking at you wondering if you would be a good mother. Obviously, if he says any of the following things and you get involved with him, you are beyond my help:

I don’t see what the big deal is about sex. Sex feels great, so why shouldn’t we just enjoy it?

I would be a terrible boyfriend.

I’m young, I want to have fun.

Call me if you want to hang out sometime.

etc.

3. Pay attention to what he does.

Players are obviously going to be more impatient in their desire to get sex fast. Impatient behaviors include the following:

  • Overly relying on texting to make plans. May also text in the early stages with “cute” and “sweet” messages, like “Good night, sleep tight” or “How was your day?” or “Home safe?” Players know that these kinds of texts make women melt and think they are real good guys. Texts are fine if they are backed up by other methods of communication. A player will not ask you to study together or call to say he’s thinking of you, for example.
  • Texting for plans last minute. He’s keeping his options open for as long as he can. Players are known for sending friendly inquiries out to multiple women at the same time, and then choosing from the responses they get. A favorite is “Where are you?” The player will then engage in an apparent effort to meet up, foiled in the end by circumstances beyond his control. “I want to see you! My friends won’t leave this bar – sucks.” or “Heading uptown finally and would love to see you, can I come over?” Naturally, this last text is sent when the bars are closing. A guy who likes you will make a plan that includes spending time together in public at a reasonable hour. It doesn’t have to be a date, but if you’re being treated like a dirty little secret, beware.
  • Wanting sex early. This is obvious, and many Players will walk away within days if you don’t put out. However, some will hang in there, going for the touchdown over a period that can last weeks. Of course, once they’re in the end zone, it’s Game Over.
  • Lying for any reason at any time is immediate grounds for dismissal. It is never justifiable.

I recently saw this in a column by Maura Kelly at Marie Claire:

I had dinner with my BFF Daisy Milliner over the weekend, and she told me a horror story about a friend of hers–a nice, successful, smart girl who waited till the SEVENTH DATE to have sex with a guy she thought she liked. After the sex–and SEVEN DATES!–he didn’t call, didn’t text, didn’t contact her in ANY WAY. Nearly a week later, when she texted him Thursday to find out if they were still on for a Friday dinner, he texted back to say, “I’ve been meaning to get in touch. I think this isn’t going anywhere. So maybe dinner isn’t such a good idea.”

She brought this tale to two good guy friends, successful, mid-30s. This was their take:

“If a guy likes a girl a lot, there’s not much she can do that will turn him off–including sleeping with him on the first date. On the other hand, if he’s mainly looking for sex, it also doesn’t matter how long she holds out. The guy will keep taking her out on dates–even as many as seven–until he gets laid. And then he’ll ditch out.”

Here’s the key: A player will pressure you for sex. Even if it’s charming and he couches it in terms of wanting you really badly, it’s still pressure. A man who wants something real with you will respect your decision about timing. Daisy may have waited till the seventh date, but you can be sure the guy had a clear indication he was headed for success and made a sport of overcoming her resistance.

Most players in college won’t put up with a girl who doesn’t hook up immediately. And a girl who hooks up to make out but won’t go all the way? She’ll be dead to him on campus come Monday. If this happens to you, be thankful you got out quickly.

4. Observe how he carries himself. Red flags include:

  • Swagger
  • Smirk
  • Touches women carelessly – lots of hand on the lower back behavior
  • Grinds on the dance floor with anyone
  • Extroverted, enjoys being the center of attention
  • Eye f*cking, or excessive direct eye contact
  • Moves into your personal space boldly

These are all signs that you are not likely to be someone special over a period of time. Men like this go from hot to cold with the flip of a switch. If you observe this behavior when you meet a guy, don’t even give him a shot, he is bad news.

5. Understand his relationships.

How does he interact with his family? Is he protective of his sister? Does he love his mama? Does he respect his father? Anything off in the family sphere is a major red flag.

What are his male friends like? What is the friendship based on? What do they do together? Is he close enough to any guy to confide in him?

Do his friends seem eager to reassure you that he is a really good guy? This is usually a bad sign. In fact, in my experience it means he is a total douchebag. Guys don’t get their friends to wing for them in this way if they have no need of providing extra reassurance.

Are most of his friends women? This is a bad sign. There are some very good guys who don’t have a lot of female friends, but there are very few good guys who have no male friends.

Is he still connected to his ex? Being cordial is fine, but making plans, talking, texting, etc. are not. If a guy is in regular touch with his ex for any reason, he is unavailable emotionally. That means he isn’t capable of wanting more than sex from you.

How do women in his circle regard him? If you see women pulling him aside at parties and in hallways to “talk,” you can be sure he has unfinished business, at least in the eyes of those women. If women are inexplicably hostile to you, it often means that he treated them poorly, and they resent your coming on the scene as the new favorite. Anytime a guy says, “She’s a psycho” or “I don’t know what her problem is,” be careful. Usually, this is projection, and the woman has a very good reason indeed for being pissed off.

Is it important to him that you meet and like his friends? He should be more than just willing, he should be invested in making this connection if he has any interest in something lasting.

Is he eager to meet your friends? Does he go out of his way to be attentive and interested, determined to make a good impression? If he is all about his own circle, expecting you to come to him all the time, he is not relationship material.

6. Watch how he displays physical affection.

Hand holding is a must, but lots of players know this, and use it to pretend to be caring. Ditto for the nose kiss and the forehead kiss. Hugs are completely meaningless. This is all known as intimacy lite.

He should be at least a little nervous about the first kiss. If he has his tongue down your throat an hour after hello, move on.

When you’re out together at a party or gathering, does he stick close by, making it clear you are together? You should have a sense that he is attentive and a little protective. He should also be anxious to show you off if he is invested.

If he “invites” you to suck his d*ck, move on. I can never get over guys who say, “You can go down on me if you want.” If he thinks his penis is a rare and precious sword he’s a player.

If he’s smug about the size of his penis, move on. Lousy at sex, guaranteed. Funny, it’s always the guys with big ones who don’t like going down on women.

Cads are generally bad in bed. In the one published report from a woman who had sex with Tucker Max, she said he was terrible. Jackhammer all the way. What did he care? He was just taking the shortest route from Point A to Point B. If you get to the point of sex with a guy, and he makes zero effort, he’s a player.

There is one exception. Players will work hard to please you during sex if they have reason to believe you’ll report on their skills. So if he wants to do all your friends next, he’ll probably make an effort. This shouldn’t ever happen if you’ve paid attention to all the other signs.

OK, that’s all I got. What did I miss? Any other ways of telling when a guy wants nothing but panty? I suggest that you print this list and carry it around in your wallet. It should be the only weapon you’ll need to ward off the condom in his.

5 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • greenfieldnews

    wow, Susan, you described good old blair down to a t, at least the blair I met, hooked up with, and get to see in public situations, everything from hands on lower back, grinding with everyone, bad relationship with his father, and love of texting. I think he’s had about ten girls in four months, some of which he even calls “crazy or Psycho” but says the sex is worth it.
    But, and this is the battle I wage with being his friend, I don’t think that’s all there is to him. Honestly, the only time I see him act like that is when skanky girls are around, like its a natural reaction to their obvert sexuality. (One ex hook up of his watched him walk away obviously, and when the other guys called her on it, she just purred, ‘i was thinking of how good he was in bed)
    But, the Blair I’ve gotten to know (and maybe its as simple as because I didn’t sleep with him that hookup) loves his mom more than anything, cares about his friends, rescues stray cats (albiet with cheese) and has picked up my drunk ass and chastely tucked me into his bed more than once.
    So can one be a player when its expected in social situations, but be a nice guy underneath? Or is a player always playing, even when he’s playing at being nice?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So can one be a player when its expected in social situations, but be a nice guy underneath? Or is a player always playing, even when he’s playing at being nice?
      I think you channeled Carrie Bradshaw here! Can’t you just hear the SJP voiceover?
      I think a player can behave differently with different people in his life. A player can love his mom, be good to his friends, etc. Not every guy will have every fault on this list. As you point out, Blair fits the bill in more ways than not. From what you’ve described, Blair values your friendship a lot, and has explicitly stated that he would not want to see you hurt. He is admitting that he’s a player, but reassuring you that you’re safe from his manipulation.
      Also, I remember Ex New Yorker saying that cads can be a lot of fun to hang out with. I second this – I’ve known some guys who were horrible to women, who had really devoted guy friends. What makes a guy a good friend to another guy is very different than what makes him good in a relationship with a woman. Blair is who he is, but he can play up certain aspects of his persona with women that he won’t call upon in non-sexual situations.

      • Melissa

        Yeah, and there are some guys that can be really good to some VERY LUCKY girls who are for whatever reason considered relationship material to them – she might be perceived as the best he can get, she might be the zero tolerance for BS kind of girl, or she might be simply the EXCEPTIONAL girl that got him over heels. Those very same guys can be pretty mean towards other girls at other moments of their lives, they can be selfish liars and terrible hookups to girls they give a sh*t. They point is that we shall not believe we’re going to be one of the rare, lucky girls that changes them. If a player has played 20 girls, and has been nice to one or two girls, what are the odds we are going to be that 3rd princess in his life?

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com dan_brodribb

    “So can one be a player when its expected in social situations, but be a nice guy underneath? Or is a player always playing, even when he’s playing at being nice?”

    I’ve been sitting here for nearly a half hour trying to come up with an answer for you and after a few restarts the best I can come up with is: It’s likely a little bit of both. I think the Player-Nice Guy scale is more of a spectrum than either/or and not only do many of us fall in between, it’s also possible for us to move along it depending on the situation.

    At the risk of jumping in without knowing all the facts, it sounds like you’re trying to figure out how this guy fits and what it means for the way you deal with him.

    I think the more important question is how do you feel being around him?
    .-= dan_brodribb´s last blog ..The Poison Of The Getting Mindset =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, dan, it didn’t take you long to strike at the heart of the matter….

      • greenfieldnews

        wow, thanks so much for thinking so long about my silly little post.
        How do i feel around him? When it’s the two of us alone-so close, like we’re best friends, full of little secrets and our own codes, and surprisingly little flirting-unless its something silly innocent like a ponytail pull. Around our guy friends? I feel close, but not too much so, esp. when he’s bragging about the sex he’s had/will have. In the most surprising of social situations-a crowded hallway, a stressful day at my job-he shines with loyatly,gving me a silent hug just when I need it, or a smile from across the room.
        But when there are girls he’s attracted to…i become insignificant in a way. The long stares they exchange will never be mine, the way his hands slide on her hips when they dance is so different from him and i goofing off and dancing (he tries to grind on me to be silly) He tucks me into his bed and sleeps on his roommates. those girls he cuddles right up to.
        It wouldnt be so bad if there werent so many of them, or if he didnt have to flirt with every girl. That’s the player. the part that hurts. knowing he finds all those girls attractive and has told me,point blank, he’s not physically attracted to me. he “loves my personality. and i’m cute. but theres no spark.”

  • Nisie

    A few more facebook tips… even if he seems single, post something on his wall. Go back three days later and see if its still there. Check out his friends- how many women vs men. How active he is on facebook- the type of folks he responds to, and if these responses stay on his friends list. To be even more blunt- if after a week, does the fact he added you still appear on his wall.

    Pictures- how many of the pictures feature him alone. You’ve got to remember somebody took those suckers. Does he own the album that they are in? How many times can you find pictures of him in other albums?

    How does he respond to you on FB? Overly flirty? Going through pictures and liking the ones with cleavage?

    No, I learned nothing from the cad in my life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nisie, wow that’s powerful. Facebook. Love it or hate it, it’s affecting relationships in a very profound way. Let me make sure I understand this…

      If a guy deletes your post, it’s b/c he is afraid another woman will see it?

      What do you mean “if after a week, does the fact he added you still appear on his wall?”

      What does it mean if a lot of the pics are of him alone? That a woman was with him?

      Ugh, how about those pics taken from an extended arm?

      Is finding a lot of pics in other albums a bad sign because it implies that he is getting around a lot, or a favorite with women?

      Your wisdom is much appreciated. I’m sorry you’ve had a cad, but glad you’ve learned the warning signs.

      • Nisie

        1. Yes, it means he’s afraid somebody will see it and wonder.
        2. He’ll delete newcomers to his facebook.
        3. It’s been my experience that the pictures are designed to show him in a good light. It’s actually a good thing to see pictures in other albums, shows what kind of friends/hobbies they have.

        And the thing is- the cad is a good part of my life. His advice and patience after I ended a 12 year relationship helped me navigate the post 30 dating world. I learned from him to be happy in a relationship with a beta male… and I wish him twice the happiness that he really doesn’t think he deserves. He plays so many games and deep down… he just wants to be loved.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Thanks, that is most helpful! Interesting compassion for the cad there. It suggests that away from seduction, their charisma and social skills can make a good friend. You also make an interesting point about aggressive womanizing, and what it says about some men’s self-esteem.

        • greenfieldnews

          agreed with compassion for cads…some of them i know, really are jerks. really do enjoy hurting girls and always looking for a hookup. others, became cads because they were hurt so often in the past, and it evolved from “maybe ill hookup with a few girls to get over so and so” and evolved into “hey if i act like this, i can have sex all the time.”
          And some honestly act like that out of some wierd social contract, but still talk about settling down and getting married one day.
          But, if you can befriend a cad that there is no sexual attraction on either side, and he’s a good kind of cad (oxymoron there) he can actually be a pretty useful friend. point out other guys game, introduce you to his less cad friends, be there for you in a rough spot. But its that no sexual attraction thing that is key

        • Melissa

          Some cads can be the best guy friends ever! – as long as you don’t sleep with them, like NEVER. If you manage to NOT sleep with them and somehow get past those awkward first hang outs when he’ll try to get you in his pants and he realized you just entered the only friends list, he’s gold!! You can learn so much from them and they’re the first one to tell you straight in you face when your guy is BS and/or playing you.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Melissa, I love the idea of a guy trying to get a girl into his pants, LOL!

  • Robin

    Lovely post Susan! You hit the nail right on the head, however I think you left out one of the biggest ones – Feminine intuition. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Feminine intuition is powerful, but it’s often overruled by the libido. Often we know a guy is bad news but we just can’t help ourselves – we take our chances. And we hope that our vag is the one that will flip a cad once and for all. Not gonna happen. Most of what I’ve written here would be caught in the net of intuition, if only women would heed it.

      • Robin

        Agreed! I had expounded on my original thought, however Firefox ate my comment and I was on the middle of getting dinner ready so just put up the original thought. You hit the nail on the head though – We override something that could be soooo helpful!

  • http://FT.com VJ

    Much too complicated generally. And you’re trying to always ‘avoid’ something that’s pretty natural and happening all around you. Like saying ‘Don’t drink the water!’ to a fish. People are just all too susceptible to being played 7 ways from Sunday. Better?

    Have a strategy that qualifies them first As Betas/Omegas. Generally clueless about flirting, moves, game? That’s the guy to work on! Do they know an inordinately amount of ‘stuff about really obscure topics Not to be seen often on TV? You should move in closer. Doing well in school while looking generally ‘like a wreck’ with out of date this & that & unfashionable ‘faux pas’ galore? You should be melting from across the room. The Game’s there for a reason. You want to get to intercept these guys before they’ve got to resort to the Game.

    No, as we’ve seen, this is not 100% foolproof. And plenty of Betas can otherwise be prime A-holes, and some might even have the capacity to play you too. But not like the pros can, and that’s the big difference. So the better way of trying to avoid some of the more ‘serious’ players is to focus on that population that is decidedly Not. But then again, I repeat myself & of course YMMV. Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well I’m happy to second this. I love it. However, I do think women need a strategy for Cad Management. Cads find attractive women and move in all the time, pretending to be nice guys. They know how to appear to be the perfect blend of hot guy and sweet boyfriend, the combination women die for. It turns out they’re very heavy on hot and light on sweet.

      Women need heavy on sweet, with a bit of hot thrown in, but the problem with the guy who can’t flirt, has obscure interests, look like a wreck in odd clothing that you describe? He’s got no hot. This is crucial. Pity dating does not work. Believe me, I’ve tried it. I went out with several guys in grad school who were smart but a little odd. They were also overly eager and supplicating. It was no good. I know this is asking a lot – many of the best men have no Game. But there is no alternative except arranged marriage, and that isn’t happening in the U.S. Women demand the gina tingle, and won’t settle for less.

      • http://FT.com VJ

        And The world was lost for want of a ‘gina tingle!

        Again!

        I hoping this gets noticed way up here, but there’s other new responses interspersed up here so why not? The short answer to this is I guess the hopeful reasons behind HUS. Really. This is the way I’ve formulated it simply elsewhere:

        “Unless & until people come to value men & women more for their innate character, intelligence & moral strength and not just their outside beauty & youthful good looks & vigor, they’ll keep on making the same classically ‘tragic errors’ with their ill considered & perhaps foolishly short term choices. Naturally too”.

        This too should not seem so strange even considering ‘women’s rights’ since oh 1848 & before (hell let’s take it way back to the 1600′-1700’s) have been basically predicated on the same broad belief? That we should strive to be more and to be seen & recognized as more than the sum parts of our mere biology & animal capacities? That women should be seen as more than just ‘baby making machines’ to be carefully guided in all things intellectual & moral in the wider world by the infinite better rational sense of their husbands, (or failing that their male members of their extended families)?

        Again this is the whole ‘Smart women, foolish choices’ deal we’ve been discussing here week after week. I’m not talking about ‘pity dating’, or long tolerating someone who so supplicating & pliable as to be annoying.

        It does come down to more or less training the senses to appreciate a wider range of possible male forms of attention & presentation. To be more accepting of something less than movie star perfection, & Yes, to begin to Question the Tingle if it’s attached to an obvious cad, or one that seems to bear all the resemblances to same.

        Yes, there’s obvious ‘immediate attraction’ based on biological cues that are very important. But today? They’re almost just as likely as others have noted to lead you astray and actually away from the potential ‘dad’s crew’ to merely being the ‘cad’s screw’.

        We really have to somehow find ways to gradually accommodate ourselves to the reality we find. Tragically, despite what’s seen on TV, most of the population out there are not ’10-9s’ (forgive the simple ‘ratings’ metaphor here, we might find it useful). Potential mates will likely naturally cluster in the 6’s, 7’s on the high end for most and on the 5-4’s on the lower end. And @ 20 something? They’ll likely be at the very peak of their attractiveness (sexual & physical beauty wise). So if you’re a 7 then? You’re unlikely to be somehow ‘upgraded’ to an 8 anytime soon, baring any unforeseen circumstances. It’s the top of your form, and if you spend your 20’s flitting from hook-up to random hook-up simply based on your immediate sense & perception of the physical beauty of the participants/targets? You’re still going to likely end up with those cats for your most ‘faithful’ companions in 10 years, baring any unplanned pregnancies.

        Hence the desperate need to periodically update what might be considered ‘beauty’ & ‘fashionable’ from time to time. Again, the normal folks you’ll likely meet & see on the streets & interact with on a daily basis? Not as good looking as most on TV or in the movies, sadly enough. Mostly? You’re going to be dealing with an average looking population. They’ll look about as ripe for the picking as they’ll ever be in Uni & college too. But plenty of wall to wall decent, everyday, meat & potatoes, Medium hot or even tepid hotness.

        Now the problem is that all too many women, ‘not feeling that immediate spark’ or yes, tingle, just move on. And then they feel it quickly with the cads, and go through a decade long series of sad but hopefully ever so slightly educational ‘experiences’ of being repeatedly ‘pumped & dumped’ by same. And so all too soon emerge out from the ‘back side’ of their 20’30’s finally almost ultimately ready to ‘try again’ & ‘settle down’ and start to learn to appreciate the better but ‘slower’ & perhaps even ‘less exciting’ qualities of the lesser Alphas or plain old Betas. But by then they’ve perhaps wasted & vested most of their ‘pretty’ on the lovely but by now absent dashing cads. And the Betas they next chance to ‘capture’ with their now fading charms are likely to be the only steady ‘dads’ that their brood of kids ever know. And once again, SSDD. The merry go round goes round & round. All for want of that infamous ‘Gina tingle at the Exact Right Time. Which is mostly? Now & forever. Always. Cheers & sorry for the length, ‘VJ’

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Amen to all of the above. This is the bottom line:

          It does come down to more or less training the senses to appreciate a wider range of possible male forms of attention & presentation. To be more accepting of something less than movie star perfection, & Yes, to begin to Question the Tingle if it’s attached to an obvious cad, or one that seems to bear all the resemblances to same.

          From dad’s crew to cad’s screw? Perfect.

          Also, interesting that you talk a lot about “looks” here. I’m thinking of a post about this – the way women are trying to basically endlessly photoshop themselves in real life. All in the name of…wait for it…..gina tingle.

  • Rick

    For every woman that sees these as “warning signs”, there are ten that see them as “attraction triggers”.

    They will never admit it, of course, but better to watch what women do. Not what they say.

    ;-P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I agree 100%. I wrote this for women who don’t want the heartache. There are actually many women who are excited and flattered to get a 3 am text from a hot guy. They’ll feel sexy and desirable getting a booty call from a cad. Caveat emptor.

      Yes, there is definitely a female equivalent of the player. It’s fair to say that everyone should be judged on their actions, not their words. A woman who you take to a party and flirts with all your friends. A woman who seems much more comfortable in the company of men instead of women. The woman player is really just the flip side of the guy player. Bad news.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    Is this essentially a how to avoid getting Gamed post? Read the Neil Strauss book and take copious notes. Also, there are a couple of high profile Manosphere sites you should go to [cough] and if any guy tries any of that stuff on you, run, run away. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

    One rule of thumb I learned the hard way: the more mysterious he is (as in, will tell you nothing of importance about himself, the more likely he is to be a cad or just relishing keeping you on the hook. Avoid.
    .-= grerp´s last blog ..Piece of Advice #28: Rethink church as THE place to meet Mr. Right =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s certainly akin to how to avoid getting Gamed by (cough) unscrupulous men, especially from DC. Whether practitioner of Game or natural Alpha, women need to know which men lead to disaster. Writing this I kept thinking, “Well this is just common sense,” but most of the young women I know personally have been targeted by a charismatic guy with no ethics or empathy, and common sense has flown out the window.
      Your point about being mysterious is very good – I once dated a guy who always had somewhere to go after dropping me off, and he made this known. It seemed to involve some sort of delivery. I suspected drugs, but looking back on it I think it may have been guns for the IRA. Mysterious = deceitful, usually.

  • Obsidian

    Testing…

    O.

  • ATS

    I grew up with three older brothers, which gave me an unusual insight into the minds of men. The valuable lessons they taught me when I was younger helped me heaps when it came to my relationships. Here goes:

    1. Men will always try to go further than what you’re willing to give just to see if they can, so you need to stick to your boundaries. If you’re consistent with showing a man you’re not willing to have sex with him without a commitment, the ones who are after you just for sex won’t stick around because they won’t waste time with a difficult target.

    2. The problem with most women is that they get flattered when they’re showered with attention, and they’re not ready to give that up, so they stick around waiting for the next hit of attention from men, and some men recognize this and use it against you. Curb your tendency to feel flattered by realizing that if a man is very good at making you feel that way, chances are, he’s had a lot of practice, and he’s probably trying it out with a lot of other women as well.

    3. Be prepared to walk away. This has been my biggest weapon in my arsenal. When a man knows you’re not going to take sh*t from him, when he knows you’re not going to get clingy and needy, he’ll work harder in trying to earn your respect. If he won’t bother, then he wasn’t worth it. And it saves you from a lot of heartache, because you keep your dignity and self-respect intact.

    4. Don’t do drama. When a girl is into a lot of drama, a player can use this against you big time. He knows you crave the attention, he knows you crave the roller-coaster ride, so he can use this to play you better than Tim Michin can play the piano. Say what you mean and mean what you say, and don’t fall into playing mind games. A woman who’s consistent with her boundaries gets a lot of respect.

    5. Stay in control of the situation. This is your ballgame, so your rules apply. Keep your eye on the main goal. If your aim is a long term relationship, don’t get sidetracked by guys who are not LTR material. That means no drunken hookups, and no going on the c*ck carousel. Think long term, not instant gratification.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wow, powerful and awesome advice ATS! Hmmm, if you ever start a blog I’m in big trouble! I think the best advice does come from men – the sexes are so different, women need an interpreter, and vice versa much of the time. Every single thing you suggest here requires self-control, which is perhaps the best advice ever. Curb your baser instincts, and life will go much better for you.

    • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

      Being prepared to walk away, ATS, is excellent advice. In fact, I go so far as to say that if you aren’t prepared to walk if he over pressures you or shows you disrespect, you are guaranteed to fail at the dating game. Having a boyfriend can’t be more important than having self-respect.
      .-= grerp´s last blog ..Piece of Advice #28: Rethink church as THE place to meet Mr. Right =-.

      • ATS

        Awww, thanks, Susan–high praise coming from you. Means a lot to me.

        Grerp, most women are so afraid to be alone that they’d rather be played, or stay with the players, than walk away. But all they’ll get from players are crumbs, if that. It’s something that I’ve always emphasized to my nieces, who are now in their late teens to early twenties–that they need to find in them the strength and courage to be capable and unafraid of being alone, so that when they do get into a relationship, they come in from a position of strength, because they already know what they will and will not put up with.

    • Mani

      Can I just say, thank you for these insights.

      Every single one of them is true.
      .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

    • Vjatcheslav

      Another important lesson for women: men and women don’t peak in attractivity at the same moment. Women peak earlier, in their late teens through their beginning twenties, and they ride that peak out during what rests of their twenties and the first years of the thirties. Simple biology : young equals fertile equals beautiful.

      Men, at the other hand, generally peak in their late twenties, early thirties – it’s the moment where they still are young enough but where they also can display their high quality as providers (they have finished their education and have got a career).

      Smart women know this (at least those seeking a LTR and commitment), and adapt their strategy: they sell their beauty somewhat cheaper when they are at their peak moment, buying commitment and retaining it as good as possible by chosing those men who are of high quality (while not being so high that they are way out of their league and wouldn’t notice those women even if they were giving them a bj), so that those high-quality men are willing to spend their own peak and subsequent years (and resources) with them.

      Women who ride the cock carrousel (“hooking up” with alpha’s), are generally dumb qua relationships: the chance that they get a good, high-quality man is rather smallish, but they tarnish themselves with the epitheton “slut” and they create resentment among those who they’ll have to take if they want commitment. And they have to go seeking a man at the moment that they have passed their peak, while the men they are chasing now are at their own peak. Result: cats…

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        HAHA! That ‘cats’ caught me by surprise, LOL.

        True story here. College is very limiting, but I think once women graduate, they should try to meet men who are 25+, for the exact reasons you describe. Personally, I think 28 is the sweet spot for men, while it’s probably 21 for women. That suggests the strategy you recommend.

        I also think you’re right about staying realistic. Women who successfully hook up with a really hot guy cannot conclude that they are really hot. They’re projecting their own criteria when they do this, and it spells disaster. This is where some of the extreme pickiness comes from, IMO.

        • Kurt

          I think that most women who are 21 are just too immature for a serious relationship. I suspect that the peak of overall attractiveness for men might be more like late 20s-mid 30s for men versus mid-late 20s for women.

      • Wookie wookie

        On the topic of cats, I personally know a bunch of LTRs and couples that are choosing to raise cats together. One recently-married woman posted on her Facebook profile that she went out and bought two “more” kittens and she doesn’t know what prompted her to do so. A girl in one LTR received a kitten from her boyfriend for her birthday. I was on the phone yesterday with a close friend who bought a cat with his wife and he was talking in mock resignation about how the cat constantly craves attention.
        ..
        Personally I think LTRs / couples are taking the crazy-cat-lady approach to maternal/paternal instincts because truly raising a kid (as opposed to popping one out and ignoring it) is becoming more and more expensive (probably even if inflation were accounted for). Cats can be effective surrogates for familial instincts it seems.
        ..
        BBC has an article about this behaviour where they talk about a cat’s ability to indicate desire for attention by modulating its purrs. The gist of the story is that cats’ attention-seeking purrs have an audio pitch similar to that of infants.
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8147566.stm
        ..
        I have no idea how similar to a baby’s cry that purr is but it certainly was effective on me when I lived with a roommate with a cat. She would always glance at the string toy when making that sound.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Hmmm, I wonder if this is a trend or you just happen to bond with cat lovers. It’s interesting that cats are learning how to purr in such a way as to get better treatment than if they just meowed loudly. I’ll take this as proof of my statement that animals are capable of learning through experience and adopting “evolutionarily novel” behaviors. Now we just need to teach young women how to purr to get guys to commit.

          By the way, I have a dog that purrs. Well, it’s more of a vocal sigh, really, but she does it to manipulate me – just like the cats in the article do. It’s definitely not a bark.

        • Wookie wookie

          Considering that I haven’t done any empirical sampling, yes it is quite possible that this is a coincidence. I wouldn’t have considered these people cat lovers at first but maybe it’s the types of personalities I have as friends.

          Evolutionary novel changes do happen but my beef with what Satoshi Kanazawa is his claim that this can only occur amidst intelligent minds of one ideological persuasion. This isn’t my area of expertise but I find Kanazawa’s statement to be fundamentally narrow-minded. It’s like claiming Mother Nature cares about liberals and conservatives or good and evil. None of those are relevant to evolution.

          The baby-purr wasn’t a creative decision intellectually developed by cats; it was a Pavlovian result where a human trait and and an animal ability happened to react to each other.

    • http://FT.com VJ

      I know little about the ‘CC’, but I had to look up this fella that ATS mentioned: “…he knows you crave the roller-coaster ride, so he can use this to play you better than Tim Michin can play the piano.”

      And of course that’s really Minchin: (probably): http://www.timminchin.com/

      And I’ve got to chuckle because for me? The example would be Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller or even Willie ‘The Lion’ Smith on the ivories, (and they would indeed be ivory!). Now they’re on the Net so you can listen to them and compare. For technical command & virtuosity? There really is no comparison. And despite every last one of them having gone to their eternal reward 20-40 years before we met? The wife knew that too. Cheers, ‘VJ’

      • ATS

        I’ve been having Tim Minchin on my mind ever since I watched him sing “Inflatable You” last week–which cracked me up big time–so when I was thinking of a pianist, he popped up. But I agree, Fats Waller trumps him technical command and virtuosity wise.

  • Athlone McGinnis

    Wow, you know what’s odd? I can swear that I fit a lot of these warning signs that one semester when I spent all of my time on weekends trying to “fit in”, so to speak.

    ” Swagger”

    Yeah, I have some of this when wasted and in the right mindset. Not a lot, but enough.

    “* Smirk”

    Yeah, did that.

    “* Touches women carelessly – lots of hand on the lower back behavior”

    Did that to. No problems walking up to random cute chicks and putting my arm around them before starting some casual conversation.

    ” * Grinds on the dance floor with anyone”

    Definitely did that to.

    “* Extroverted, enjoys being the center of attention”

    Alright, this didn’t happen.

    “* Eye f*cking, or excessive direct eye contact”

    I always make direct eye contact with people I talk to so this wasn’t new.

    “* Moves into your personal space boldly”

    I did this one a whole lot, and added the “careless touching” after it. When i’d made that committment that semester to “change”, I was in a mindset that, when combined with alcohol, gave me balls I was dead sure I didn’t have. Touching random girls I’d just met was not an issue at all. In fact, I think I was overaggressive.

    My goal at that point was to “change” from supplicating beta to experienced alpha(player). I must have done it better than I thought, because in those instances when I was drunk on weekends back in winter I displayed a lot of the qualities you’re outlining here. This despite the fact that(as you know) I’m clearly a beta.

    What makes this interesting is the fact that these tactics really didn’t work very well. My execution and lack of true game definitely played a role in this, but maybe girls at my school are as smart as some of my peers have claimed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That is very interesting, a real field report! There are definitely some girls who will lap that stuff up, but not the kind of girl you’re looking for, Athlone, the kind who is good LTR material. You probably succeeded in attracting girls who were consciously or subconsciously looking to be “used” by a jerk, and when your real “nice guy” persona came through, you lost their interest.

      The guys who are really heartless exhibit those behaviors, but throw in a lot of personal attention to one particular woman, seeking her out while demonstrating enormous social proof. This is the classic trap the Player sets.

      • Athlone McGinnis

        Yeah, you’re right Susan. That type of skill set is what separates the true alpha from the posturing beta. The nice guy never shows and they are able to play girls against each other to create social proof and win over their targets consistently.

        That being said, I have a feeling my aggressive game might have worked at least once or twice at a larger state school with wilder(and less intelligent) girls. I think that there is a subset of girls in college(particularly at the good ones) where the backlash you talk about might have already begun to become the norm. Girls in these places are too smart to fall for simple caveman/direct game and even the few alphas here have to work harder. The bar is raised in these environments for a guy who wants to play the field.
        The skewed sex ratio probably plays a role to.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Very interesting. I’ll note that as anecdotal evidence. Of course, I’m pleased, because this should benefit beta males and all females who are not “Girls Gone Wild.” Culture changes slowly, but there does seem to be some movement here.

  • Sex Cult Kool Aid Vomit

    “There are actually many women who are excited and flattered to get a 3 am text from a hot guy. They’ll feel sexy and desirable getting a booty call from a cad.”

    That 3 am call needs to be leveraged for an expensive night out on the town – drinks, five course meal, movie, theatre, concert, in his car.

  • GudEnuf

    “Call me if you want to hang out sometime.”

    Why is that a red flag? Sounds like he’s just giving you an open invitation.

    P.S. How are Susan and grerp getting pictures next to their names?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      GudEnuf, you can go to http://www.gravatar.com and get a small graphic or image of yourself. That will replace the green and white square that currently shows up for your name.

      The reason that’s a red flag:

      1. It’s fine if a woman initiates hanging out with a guy she is attracted to.
      2. It’s fine if a guy initiates hanging out with someone he is attracted to.
      3. It’s fine if a woman invites a guy to call her. She is signaling her interest and eliminating the risk of rejection for the guy.
      4. When a guy says “You can call me if you want” it signals to women that he wants to be pursued. A man who demonstrates up front that he won’t risk rejection but will push it onto the woman is playing against a deeply entrenched pattern where the male initiates and risks rejection, and the female selects.

      It may not be fair, but that’s the way women are made. There’s a scene in He’s Just Not That Into You, where Gigi is in a bar and has a really nice conversation with a guy who seems quite interested. As he walks away he hands her his business card and asks her to get in touch. She’s quite flattered until her friend says NO, if he likes you he should be trying to get in touch. A guy handing out his number all over town = lazy player.

  • Rick

    Just an alternative thought, Susan:

    Could it be that when a girl gets gamed that she is playing right along?

    That the “gaming” is doing nothing more that providing plausible deniability, as the saying goes?

    If many women are “succumbing” (lotsa potential for entendre, but I mustn’t) to game, they are must be:

    *Powerless against it
    *Too stupid to realize what is happening
    *Cynically playing along

    I pick the third one. Women are not socially stupid – they spend much of their life observing social interactions. Remember the episode of “Friends” where Jennifer Anniston puts on the Princess Leah outfit for whatshisname?

    Kinda like that. When the GF puts on the naughty nurse outfit, I think most guys are down for that, without being even slightly fooled that she has actual medical credentials.

    Or the French Maid outfit. Without being even slightly fooled about her housecleaning credentials. Juuust kidding.

    If swaggering cads can provide a plausible fantasy backdrop for these women, maybe that is all they want. Just enough alpha a-holery to make the inevitable hookup “his fault” for “seducing her”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Personally, I think all three of your options are pretty common.

      Powerless against it: When a guy has tight Game, he has the ability to attract many women. In that sense, women are powerless – the guy made them tingle. However, even 100,000 years ago women had to be careful about selecting a mate. A caveman cad who impregnated a lot of women with his swagger would have been responsible for sharing his resources among many women and children. It’s reasonable to expect that some women would say, “No thanks, you’re not a reliable provider.” Others would have succumbed to the tingle. Women may be powerless to prevent attraction to these guys, but also be wise enough to pass. In the last post, a couple of young women made it clear that they are attracted to players, but seem to have something close to a pact among their friends that they won’t play.

      Too stupid to realize what is happening: Well, as I said, I was writing this post, and thinking, “Is this advice worthless? Isn’t this just common sense?” I don’t think women are stupid about players, I think they are naive and in denial about their chances of reforming him. They think or hope they are special enough to get him hooked with amazing sex. In addition, some young women get to college with very limited experience. It’s no accident that players prey on freshman every fall. Many young women with good values get badly burned by a player their first semester.

      Cynically playing along: Some women enjoy the status that comes with hooking up with a player, especially if they can get round 2 or even become his regular hookup. The women in their circle will be envious, and they get off on pretending for a short while that they have snagged the top dog. Honestly, charming as he is, why would any woman who hopes to marry and have children even consider dating someone like George Clooney? Because they can’t resist the media exposure, and they want to take their shot at being Annette Bening to his Warren Beatty.

    • Mani

      See, I wonder. I am assuming that this article is mostly aimed at women who want a LTR. What about the women who aren’t looking for anything long term? Are they a whole different ball game then?

      Sure, they could be considered as “playing along” cynically, but what if they just want to have a good time themselves? It’s possible for sure, in my opinion.
      .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

      • greenfieldnews

        I even know girls who expect game and players from their hookup. My cad friend once told me how he completely terrfied one of his late night, after party hookups. In the morning, when they woke up, he said “look, i really liked this, and you seem cool. Wanna get breakfast, and actually get to know each otherou at least a little bit?”
        She said “nah, i’ll f*** again, but thats where i draw the line.”
        …so some girls really do just want sex. and no communication or commitment, or even to know her hookups last name.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Wow! I don’t get too many of those girls coming here…..

          Did this make the cad even more intrigued with her?

        • greenfieldnews

          no, the cad was blair, and as you know, he does have some sort of morals/common sense, once in a while. he was telling me about it, and other similar occurances, and said, “you know what the worst part of one night stands is?”
          I suggested the sex with an unknown, the drunken fumbling and he laughed those away, saying that they werent that bad, or an expected part (and of course he assured me he never fumbles.*eyeroll*)
          but what he did say was “the mornings , like that one, after you’ve gotten as physically close as possible with someone, and they don’t want any sort of communication.”
          I asked if he wanted them to turn into relationships and he said “No! no, not at all. but sometimes,idk, i would like to at least talk to her a bit, so that the next time we see each other, its not awkward.Just you know, talking over a cup of tea would be fine. enough to know we’re both humans, and we had a good time, and sure, we might never have fun with each other again, but at least we’re real people and not just a tool.”
          but least you think too well of him, this is the same guy who will pursue any single girl, and can spit game with the best of them, and has a whole bunch of fwbs and ‘cuddle buddies’

  • Mani

    All I can say, Susan, is BRA-VO. This article is so bookmarked.

    I know SO many guys who are players, it’s not even funny. They fit all of these descriptions to a Tee. I honestly think deep down, players aren’t necessarily bad people, they just 1) have an insatiable thirst for sex or 2) really aren’t looking for anything serious at the moment. They know how to play the game really well, and it’s really unfortunate if a girl falls right into it, so this guide is soooo helpful for ladies out there who think they’ve found someone who wants a relationship when they really haven’t.

    Once you realize this, how you choose to deal with the guy is really up to you. Just know you just can NEVER expect anything out of them…if they never call you again after hooking up, that comes with the territory. It’s just when emotions come into play when things turn into a big screaming mess (usually on the girls part.) There’s two people at play, here, after all! Sometimes a girl likes to have a little bit of fun too ;)

    But yeah, do not fall for a player…never, ever ever. Nothing good will ever come out of it.
    .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thanks, Mani! As you rightly point out, some women are not interested in a relationship. Whether they feel too busy with work, don’t want to get attached as graduation looms, or whatever, some women are happy to keep things “fun and casual.” However, I’d be careful even then – a player lacks empathy and generosity. Even if you’re just in it for fun, it can still feel pretty bad to be treated disrespectfully or juggled with other hookup partners. Many women think they can’t get hurt in a casual situation or FWB. Then they see the guy out one night and he ignores them while he hits on some new girl. I encourage women to keep their eyes wide open as they go into these arrangements, and to get out if you start feeling vulnerable. That’s your own personal red flag.

      • Mani

        No prob! I wish I had this manual when I was a freshman. Would have prevented some of the mistakes I made…

        “However, I’d be careful even then – a player lacks empathy and generosity. Even if you’re just in it for fun, it can still feel pretty bad to be treated disrespectfully or juggled with other hookup partners. Many women think they can’t get hurt in a casual situation or FWB. Then they see the guy out one night and he ignores them while he hits on some new girl.”

        I TOTALLY agree with you on this. That is the one drawback – there is a good chance they won’t respect you afterward, or even ACKNOWLEDGE you because they got what they wanted…and that always makes for an awkward, embarrassing social moment. It’s especially awkward if you see them on a regular basis too.
        .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com dan_brodribb

    None of that stuff did much for me either, Athlone.

    My theory is as we grow more comfortable with ourselves, the less we need to game (or be gamed, for that matter).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Athlone, just a thought – I believe you might really like dan’s blog The Gateway Boyfriend. It’s in my blogroll. Dan has spent several years going through a process not unlike what you might be facing, and writes intelligently and compassionately about it. It’s great stuff.

  • Snowdrop111

    HAHA I just saw Don Giovanni last night. During many scenes, I couldn’t help but think about this blog! Here are some more signs I picked up from Don Giovanni:

    1) Does he have a manservant downstairs fuming “Why do I have to be the lookout?”
    2) Does he happen upon your country wedding and invite the whole wedding party to his castle so he can get the groom drunk and be first to get with the bride?
    3) Does he sneak into your window at night pretending to be your fiance?
    4) When caught, and your father tries to avenge your honor, does he kill your father?
    5) Does he change outfits with his manservant in order to get with your maidservant?

    I caught myself thinking the women he had wronged carried on a little too long with their heartbroken grief. I wanted to yell “Get over it girl, there’s more fish in the sea” but maybe if they were “Ruined” they really did have to join a convent. One poor “nice guy” the whole audience felt sorry for! His fiance was “compromised” but he still wanted to marry her and she kept putting him off till she was avenged. FINALLY she is avenged and he goes “Now we can get married” she goes (It is kind of a comic opera in some places) “Give me a year to grieve” and the whole audience laughs…the poor guy can’t get laid! His character reminded me of the guys on here mad at the player for ruining the women.

    But the one woman who kept hunting Don Giovanni down swearing revenge…I wanted to yell “STALKER!” I guess she was supposedly the best singer based on the audience applause but I couldn’t tell why. I was way more impressed with the statue, maybe because I like his song best.

    If you want to see a player get his comeuppance, just google “Commendatore Scene” on Youtube!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, Snowdrop, that’s a great story. It just shows that human beings have ever been thus. I have been reading the book Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. It is set in the 1100s and in one scene the nobleman’s daughter refuses to marry his choice for her. Another woman demands to know why on earth the girls should have a say. She remarks, “If women got to choose their husbands the whole world would be peopled by minstrels and dark-eyed outlaws.” Of course, that was written recently, but I loved the idea that a thousand years ago the bad boy had his appeal, and the power to make women stupid.

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  • Too Tall Jones

    LESSON: DUDES! CHANGE YOUR PRIVACY SETTINGS!

    lol.. as in so many things, it takes a perceptive woman to remind a man… lol I have done some of the social networking thing, and have seen jealousies come out of the blue because some women felt certain women appeared “too frequently” on my page. They didn’t;t say it openly but that was the clear feeling conveyed. I had no clue this would develop. It seemed so trivial, but it happened. As a guy I still scratch my head at it.. I never really got that worked up when one of my women favorites was swamped by certain men. A flicker of bother and then a regretful shrug over something I could not control. But with women it seemed to go a bit deeper consistently.

    1. Understand that he is in it for the sex.
    OK but how does a gal convey to him that she is in in for a relationship without scaring him off? I realize that the gal too may just want sex at one time or another, but don’t women tend to think more long term, seeing as the clock is ticking? Or should it matter if she scares him off?

    He is in sales mode. He wants P in V. Very few men are looking at you wondering if you would be a good mother.

    Stop it- you are revealing too much of the male psyche and blowing our cover! Granted we have certain hormonal urges, I would say that men too can sometimes be thinking about family. I think it depends on age and maturity level, and on background to some extent. For example, while they may get hot and bothered looking at that creature called woman, religious types will often carefully evaluate a woman’s motherhood/wife potential early on. One of the things they look at especially is if the gal is too “easy.”

    Overly relying on texting to make plans. Texting for plans last minute. Wanting sex early.
    dadburn it- quit “outing” us… lol

    Lying for any reason at any time is immediate grounds for dismissal. It is never justifiable.

    OK, but would’nt you qualify this in cases where a little white lie would make life proceed much more smoothly? For example the question- what to you think of me in this dress? You know the guy who bluntly speaks his mind and says “it makes you look chunky” is going to be in the doghouse. Isnt a lie better in such cases?

    Here’s the key: A player will pressure you for sex.

    Indeed, but what are some steps to bear up or deflect the pressure? I don’t mean from the standard quick draw artist with his easy to spot fake flattery – but from the most deadly of predators- the “heartbreaker” – who slowly and patiently stalks his prey. For him 7 dates or 7 weeks would be nothing. He would usually be indirect a great deal of the time, and not openly apply pressure like Mr QUick Draw. He would usually be playful and teasing, but nevertheless, proceeding in increments to win trust and break down defences, slowly, seductively, stealthily throws his coils around his prey?

    5. Understand his relationships.
    Perceptive indeed. I think a woman tends to analyze in greater depth, or at least should rather than “just do it” as today’s culture often urges.

    He should also be anxious to show you off if he is invested.

    Hmm.. I once read a novel called “Spending” by a Mary Gordon, who wrote about the sensation of being watched by others as her man showed her off, and it was absolutely thrilling to her. She also had the weird and thrilling sensation of watching herself being watched as they walked, his hand on the small of her back. She said it made her feel light, out of body, almost like a bird, floating. Course that was the novel. But does being “showed off” by a man really mean that much to a woman? It sounds kinda anti-feminist in a way..

    I suggest that you print this list and carry it around in your wallet. It should be the only weapon you’ll need to ward off the condom in his.

    lol, xcuse me while I whip this out.. and the guy flees like a wooden cross pulled on a vampire.. :) You have certainly raised awareness with this post, but what advice would you give as to the best female defence in action?

    On another blog one female poster argued for erecting defences early- strictly limiting touching, certain dating situations etc to avoid being sucked into the serpent’s wriggly coils. Would this be the best way to go – strict imitations and boundaries up front – or should a woman dally and toy a bit with the situation, enjoying the flattery, attention, and money spent onher while still not having the sightest intention of going to bed with the “playa”? In other words, is dalliance too dangerous a game? Would more volatile female emotion get a gal sucked down the slippery slope, in past the point of no return? Just wondering.. I can see the strict limitation route as being especially valuable for younger, naive women, who are easier prey.

    PS: Maybe I should add to that perhaps women want to be prey?

    I don;t mean anything with so-called “alphas” at all – it could be with any reasonably horny guy. Simply the feeling of being looked over, desired, lusted after? Seeing how he shapes his jokes and conversation, knowing precisely what his predatory motivation is.. The hint of danger as he deflects her hesitation and moves in? Is that part of the fun, the excitement for a woman? I can’t believe its all analytical checklists for “mate potential” going through her mind 24/7. And can this desire to be prey kick in with any guy who is reasonably attentive to a gal? Why do some automatically assume it has to be some sort of “lead wolf” type? I myself have found teasing, mildly flirting or seductive humor, combined with eye contact and physical proximity is great for creating that “predatory” environment rather than a elaborate series of “moves”.

    I once dated a guy who always had somewhere to go after dropping me off, and he made this known. It seemed to involve some sort of delivery. I suspected drugs, but looking back on it I think it may have been guns for the IRA.

    My immediate thought was sperm deliveries, as he juggled several “accounts”.. lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hey TTJ-

      I think women are definitely more likely to get themselves all twisted up over Facebook. We’re also more likely to use Facebook to stalk. I’m not sure which comes first, but honestly, guys are really dumb if they think they can get away with lying if Facebook tells the true story. Some of the more obvious cheaters are definitely being thwarted in this way.

      You raise a good question about the balance in the early stages of attraction. Usually, the guy wants sex asap, although he may have mixed feelings, i.e. if she gives it up too soon she rules herself out as a LTR. The woman wants to know that she’s not going to spend two months having sex and falling for a guy, only to learn that he doesn’t want a relationship. Personally, I think that if women are hoping for a commitment – if they see the guy as a potential bf – they are better off saying that they don’t “do casual” and testing his investment. If he really likes her, he’ll bite. If not, FIDO (f*ck it, drive on).

      Good clarification about lying. Every man knows he has to tell a white lie now and then – it’s really an act of generosity when women are feeling insecure, especially about their appearance. However, saying that you are out with Jim when you’re really out with Jenny – not a white lie. Also, sometimes guys will lie about something like being in touch with an ex – because they don’t want to ruin a good thing. But the truth is the new girl needs to know that. If he’s in touch with his ex, he is leaving that door open. Letting her know that is full disclosure.

      Re a woman wanting to have a man show her off – yes, that does sound anti-feminist, and do many of my rantings and musings, haha. Of course women love this! You cannot imagine the difference between these two scenarios:

      1. Guy brings you to a party. He’s friendly but also making the rounds a lot, doing his thing. He checks in frequently, gets you a drink, but also talks a lot with other girls and guys, maybe even dances a couple of times. As the party winds down, he asks if you had a great time, and if you’d like to come back to his place.

      2. Guy brings you to a party. He is friendly to everyone, and doesn’t cling to your side all night, but he circles back frequently and engages in conversation with you a good part of the night. Anyone at the party would realize the two of you are together. He makes a point of introducing you to people you may not know. He rests his hand on your shoulder, or lower back. He may hold your hand. As the party winds down, he asks if you’re ready to go and takes you home. If things get physical at that point, fine, but it is not assumed.

      This is an example of early in the relationship, but truthfully, this is what women like in general. Much of it could apply throughout the relationship.

      It’s my belief that women are better off getting rid of a player asap. These guidelines are designed to define the red flags. I think most women who’ve been with a guy like this are nodding their heads as they read this post – the signs don’t vary that much. Why prolong an involvement that’s never going to be more than superficial? If a woman follows all these guidelines, she won’t get to sex before she knows enough about him. For example, understanding his relationships can take some time. But many of these red flags will be evident in the first two weeks, in plenty of time to cut loose without any emotional damage.

      I haven’t thought of women enjoying being “prey” per se, but yes, I think there is something to that. We certainly like to be the sole object of attention, and we want men to make an effort. So I guess you could say we want to be in their “sights.” It is especially rewarding when a man makes an intense effort because it makes us feel very special – he’s willing to invest a lot of time and effort to win us. Of course, as you say, some men will make a sport of this, taking real pleasure in the chase and then dumping the woman.

      Re sperm deliveries, you may be right. He definitely was juggling several accounts.

  • Jenna

    I don’t understand player logic. I mean if a guy wants sex, why would he dump a girl after she has sex with him? Wouldn’t he want to date her again so they can have sex again? Instead it seems players like to start over every time they have sex with a girl, meaning they don’t really have much sex at all.

    • Too Tall Jones

      Part of the logic is to dump her before she dumps him. The player knows its only a matter of time before his manipulation is exposed. It may be better to move first. But generally a player will keep on dating his target- on his schedule – while he juggles other “accounts”. He will work the target to the max, but if she starts getting to close, too clingy, asking too many questions, questioning inconsistencies and bogus stories, then he knows its time to bail.

      Also dumping first keeps the “playa” in a position of control and power. If the girl angrily departs after being dumped, no big loss because he already has squeezed the cherry. If she comes tearful and heartbroken, he has the choice to finalize the dump or string her along a bit more for his pleasure. Either way though, he maintains his power and control. That’s the bottom line.

      The “playa” remember has often been rejected many times by women after making a good faith effort. Once he is into the Game, he remembers those rejections, some of them scornful and dismissive, and is hardened. Thus it might also be a case of payback. There may be several scenarios and motives involved.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Jenna, hi and thanks for commenting! TTJ is giving you some good info here about the way guys think. I want to add one other thing. I read in the book Guyland by Michael Kimmel that for men, the biggest payoff is from their peers, not the sex. They have sex with as many women as possible because it gives them very high social status with other guys, which is their primary goal. Conversely, guys with girlfriends often get ridiculed for being “whipped.” I think it was GudEnuf who said that he had a friend at school who was a real player, but then decided to settle down with one girl. His friends teased him about it constantly. Once they were all sitting around, and his gf reached around from behind, grabbed his junk, and said, “Let’s go upstairs.” They left and the guys all looked at each other. One of them said, “Wow. Respect.” Haha I loved that! But it shows just how much status guys give up if they stop playing the field.

    • Aldonza

      A lot of playas don’t overtly dump the girl. They just disappear for awhile to focus on other targets and then circle back around for the they “hey, what’s up?” text (which is almost always a prelude to a booty call.)

      If he completely burns the bridge in the morning, it’s because he considers the girl to be too far below his usual standards to keep around even as a backup booty call.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Ouch. Actually, this might be a bit different in the real world of dating (post college). There are lots of guys who simply will only do one night. They don’t want any drama whatsoever, so they cut girls loose right away. Obviously, only a few guys can pull this off, but they set the tone. I’ve seen many young guys ignore a girl after a hookup, and then try to come back around when they realize they were lucky they ever got that far. Some women, unfortunately, will take the bait, which is sad.

  • http://FT.com VJ

    As I said on the strong above, I think it really needs to come down to Training the Tingle:

    “Unless & until people come to value men & women more for their innate character, intelligence & moral strength and not just their outside beauty & youthful good looks & vigor, they’ll keep on making the same classically ‘tragic errors’ with their ill considered & perhaps foolishly short term choices. Naturally too”.

    Smart women, foolish choices? Need an Educated Tingle! (Not as difficult as it sounds). Longer version of this is above… Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’

  • http://FT.com VJ

    And then there’s the little known case of the Alpha-Beta, and yes, evidently they do exist:

    http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/04/30/bob-rubin-sex-scandal-he-cant-get-past-second-base/

    Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OMG! Did you notice that the co-author on that Iris Mack post was Moe Tkacik, the woman who wants you to get herpes? Wow, I have to say I’m disappointed in Bob Rubin. I thought he was happily married. Though he is certainly more appealing, IMO, than Peter Orszag, who by the way, is now accused of wearing a toupee:

      http://gawker.com/5446019/investigation-is-peter-orszags-hair-really-a-toupee/gallery/

  • rogue wolf1

    As I’ve literally worked 21 hours out of the past 48 I’ve been away and missed this interesting topic. Sorry I don’t really have the time now to read all the responses so I apologize in advance if my comment is out of place or has already been mentioned.

    In any case, ladies there is a simple way of telling if the guy you’re with is a player, PUA, whatever. It has nothing to do with figuring if he is aggressive (let’s face it, guys learn at an early age that unless he pushes it’s hard to even come by a hand shake). It also has nothing to due with being an extrovert (the satistical norm in American culture). All you have to do is just ask a close male friend, brother, father, whatever about him. Just any human that has a combination of the X and Y chromosomes. A man can pick out another man’s bullshit far easier than you ever will be able to.

    Oh and fellas this works vice versa. I make it a point to run girlfriends or even potential girlfriends past trusted female friends. They have yet to give me an incorrect read.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com susanawalsh

      This is sound advice, as long as you can trust the person you consult not to lie for him. In other words, you’re better off describing his behavior to a close, trusted male friend of your own than asking his BFF if he’s a good guy. Cads tend to travel in packs.

      • Aldonza

        And so long as the guy you ask doesn’t have a sexual interest in you.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Ooohhh, good point! The old Crying Shoulder strategy. Athol Kay openly admits that he did this to win his wife. He told her, you shouldn’t be dating that jerk. You should date a nice guy like me. Ha!

        • rogue wolf1

          Yeah, that’s the catch. But if you can’t tell you can always just ask. Stupid advice but it works.

    • Snowdrop111

      That backfired on my almost-grandfather.

      The story I got is that he was falsely accused of having said things about my grandmother, and so my grandmother would have nothing to do with him.

      But did my mean, actual-grandfather scheme to falsely malign his rival?

      If the nice guy had been my grandfather, I wouldn’t have such a mean streak.
      but then, I guess I wouldn’t be here.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Wow! Haha, that is quite a story! How did it come out? What was your grandmother’s response?

  • 108spirits

    This is treating the symptom, not the cause. All these sign readings will drive a woman nuts and her subsequent nosiness and unfounded suspicious attitude will actually cause her to be dumped.

    The main reason a girl gets “played” is because she has nothing better to offer a man than sex. She will be dumped by players and gentlemen alike, and only clingy “nice guys” with no option will stick around.

    The girls here believe that not having sex too early with a guy will weed out the players. That’s a sound strategy, however, during that no-sexy time, you’ll have to show the guy why it’s worth his while to stick around. Too many girls believe that all they have to do is showing up and talking about themselves.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com susanawalsh

      Well, a woman need not really whip this list out and start checking off the red flags. It’s really a question of learning how a player behaves. In truth, a guy who exhibits just a few of these warning signs is bad news. Women need to get a feel for how these guys operate.

      As for who gets played, the truth is that many women have a great deal to offer, but they are spending time with a man who doesn’t want anything but sex, from any woman. No matter how great they are, they will be dumped because he is not interested in getting to know them either way.

      However, you do make a good point in general. In an era when men have little incentive to commit, women do need to provide a good reason for demanding that. What does she add to his life? I agree that many women are narcissistic, and think that by looking a certain way they deserve to have it all. That’s not going to cut it – women who adopt this behavior run the risk of ending up alone.

      • Michael

        As for who gets played, the truth is that many women have a great deal to offer, but they are spending time with a man who doesn’t want anything but sex, from any woman. No matter how great they are, they will be dumped because he is not interested in getting to know them either way.

        And then they should move on.

        And be grateful the man can not take the sex back.

    • Snowdrop111

      Amen to this. Someone earlier asked what is the defense to his pressuring for sex before he is emotionally invested (my way of putting it.) Someone pointed out, accurately, that there are guys willing to misrepresent their intentions for a long time, months even, and then never call again after sex…or shortly after sex begins, state that they are “confused” and “not ready for a relationship,” which to my suspicious way of thinking is almost the same thing as a pump and dump. Now if the couple had begun a legitimate attempt at a relationship and then found incompatibility that’s not the same thing. That’s legit in my book. I am talking about after two months or so, when he began like he was head over heels, suddenly he is “confused” and “not ready for a relationship.”

      I believe a woman’s only “defense” is to be so darn wonderful to be with (to him) that before he knows it he misses her like crazy when she is not around. This does not have to do with sex but with the way he feels when he is around her. For some guys it is that she laughs at his jokes. For some guys it is that she is game to go rock climbing with him. For some guys it is that she does the Nancy Reagan hero-worship thing and fixes her eyes on him like a laser beam…this would make some guys gag, and some guys eat it up.

      I think a woman’s only defense is to be the one he can’t live without, and you won’t know what makes up that compatibility till you get to know each other. So a woman has to protect her heart from the false starts, as in, don’t be too hurt if a dating relationship starts and that kind of compatibility doesn’t strike. If no one lied or played anyone, no harm no foul. A woman needs to protect her heart and know how much risk she can take.

      Holding out for a long time is a good strategy to not get bumped around too much, so saying “I don’t do casual” is a good strategy. It’s no guarantee the guy will fall in love with you…to get him to fall in love with you you have to have that magic of being the one he surprisingly can’t live without, and only time usually tells that. You can be the one who doesn’t do casual and still doesn’t do it 100 percent for him, because maybe you don’t rock climb. I am not kidding–I know lots of couples that that kind of thing is the glue and I hate that kind of thing, but I can’t deny this is how a lot of couples get together. I HATE IT. But I know many couples who the compatibility that drew them together is something like backpacking and crap. UGGH. I love to camp and my library rat boyfriend hates it, but we have that compatibility because I laugh at his jokes. SURE I’ll give up camping for the kind of relationship where I laugh at his jokes and he can’t wait to tell me what happened that day.

      To sum up, the woman’s defense is to be the one he can’t wait to tell what happened that day. You can’t always tell that. Some guys find me crushingly boring. The one I am right for, can’t wait to tell me what happened that day and I can’t wait to hear his corny puns.

  • Tupp!

    Well I think you have forgot one important male view.
    As a man I “know”(more or less) that if a girl don´t want to have sex early.
    She is not that attracted to me. So my advice to a man is not to try to hard to get
    a girl, because if she is not that interested in you it´s big chance that she will
    leave you when she finds a more attractive male. You know most guys have been really
    nice to girls the way you want them to be, just to find out that their alpha “friend” just banged
    the nice girl you were doing all those nice things to….and then we are back to the only way
    for a man. To be a bad gay or at least alpha. we have a unsolvable situation. So i hope your next post will offer a solution.

    • Michael

      To be a bad gay or at least alpha. we have a unsolvable situation. So i hope your next post will offer a solution.

      The solution is pretty obvious.

      Either be a bad gay or an alpha.

    • Aldonza

      I think what you’ve got there is a fundamental attribution error. You say that women who don’t sleep with you quickly are not that attracted to you. With some women, you may be correct. But what about the others? You’re discounting them just because they didn’t sleep with you right away. There may be any number of reasons a woman might wait (including that she reads this blog.) Only one of those reasons has to do with her attraction to you.

  • Michael

    It should be the only weapon you’ll need to ward off the condom in his.

    Why would she want to ward off the condom?

    Just because he is not relationship material does not mean she can not have a great time with him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If all she wants is to have a great time then she’s not in danger of falling for him. This post is meant for women who are looking for more than casual hooking up.

      • Michael

        This post is meant for women who are looking for more than casual hooking up.

        Do casual hook ups prevent women and men from getting into relationships?

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Hooking up leads to relationships 12% of the time. It gives men the option of having sex without commitment, leaving them free to try to get with a number of different women, so they are usually not inclined to enter a relationship.

        • Michael

          The opposite of hooking up is not hooking up.

          A commenter named Steveo did not hook up. Did that lead him into a relationship?

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Um, no. Fallacious logic.

        • Michael

          How is it fallacious logic?

          If the opposite of hooking up is not hooking up, then what is?

          And links to Steveo’s comments are here , here , here , here , and here .

          As you can see plainly from these posts, men who suffer from virginity have much greater emotional problems than women who get played by players. That is why it does not bother me if women get used for sex- it is better than them remaining virgins.

  • Tupp!

    I was refering to “how to not fall for a player” And i would say that most bad boy or Alpha will look lika players sometimes and that was not a solution on this blogg any way. So i hope Susan Walsh could se the big problem with her post. She puts the man in a position that in reality is impossible to act on. It´s not a way forward for man and therfore her stratigy will not work that god for women either.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    A woman wanting to have sex, being tempted to have sex, is not the same thing as going ahead and having it. However, your point is valid – if a woman does not find you sexually attractive or tempting, she will not be interested in you. You must practice your social skills until you feel comfortable and confident when speaking with women.

  • Tupp!

    Susan, I am good with women, But bad at english. So I better practic at my english, because you missed my point totaly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sorry, Tupp! Can you try again to explain what you mean?

  • Tupp!

    If a girl really is attracted to a man. She will (in general) have sex with him relativity soon because she can´t stop herself(it feels right for her). So I as a man don´t want to have girl that is not insanely attracted to me. So for a man it´s better to invest in a girl he knows is really attracted to him.
    Your advice to girls it not to have sex early. My advice to a man is not to get a girlfriend that not seems to be that much in to you, sexually. So here is the conflict. We end up in a extremely narrow way for a women and man to meet. You have a point I your bloggpost. And I just showed another point from a male perspective. So if a girl want to wait with sex she really must show to the man that she is interested in him sexually anyway. Why should a man invest a lot of energy in a girl if she doesn´t do the same ? I man with options wouldn´t do that. And a girl want an attractive man. Well as I said we have a conflict here. When I as a man read this post you leave me with few ways to get a girl that is good for me. And I good with women. Some girls wold call me a player. I am really only looking for a good girl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OK, I understand. I think a woman needs to say what is on her mind, not leave a guy wondering what she feels. She may say, “I really like you, but this feels too soon for sex. I will be ready to have sex when you are willing to make me your girlfriend.”

      That’s really what women want – the commitment. So as long as both people are open and communicating, it should work out OK. If you are looking for a good girl, then you should be willing to commit when you find one, no?

      • Tupp!

        Well, A girl should never say”“I really like you, but this feels too soon for sex. I will be ready to have sex when you are willing to make me your girlfriend.”

        In that moment she makes her self a whore. She starts to use sex as an Buying item. and that is not a good road to go. The only thing that works is that the man know that the girl wants him sexually. I mean she could say it but talking is talking…I hate when I feel a girl uses sex as buying item. you should have sex with another person because you want it for your self. I want to know that she wants to fuck me. If, she wants to wait some time is okey, but if this become a to big thing or a buying item. Well then a good and equal sexlife without any bullshit has been lost. And 95% of all people wants to live with a partner!!? Most “players” just wants to have some options. And all “players” or man that I know of that are attractive to girls have found a good girl.
        So it´s the same thing as always. Most girls are attracted to the same guy. That guy have options. He wants to find a girl that could bring something to him more than looks. And I can understand that a girl get hurt when she gets dumped.
        Most of this is hardwiered in our systems and few people can do anything about it. These bloggs that you are writing can maybe help a few to make better decissions. I belive so any way. PUA has helped a lot of man to do better decissions. You talk about commitment. I think Man are much much better than women in that matter. As you know that mostly women initeates the divorce.

      • Tupp!

        I wrote a long answer but id disapered…..
        So just one thing:
        ” really like you, but this feels too soon for sex. I will be ready to have sex when you are willing to make me your girlfriend.”

        Don´t go this way ! Because then you are on the way to be a whore. You are using sex as a buying item. If you fuck some one you should do it only because you want to.
        As a man I want to know that the girl want to fuck me because she wants to.
        I dont want to know that she wants to fuck me only so that she could have me as a boy friend…this difference is important. As a girl, do you really want to have a boyfriend that only is your boyfrend so that he could fuck you….didn´t think so ?

      • Snowdrop111

        ” She may say, “I really like you, but this feels too soon for sex. I will be ready to have sex when you are willing to make me your girlfriend.”

        This is almost exactly what John Gray advises. However, he does not go quite as far as to advise the woman bring up “I need to be the girlfriend.”

        Back in the mid-80s it was advised that the woman say “I have to be in a relationship.” However, I said that in 2005. I had met a new guy I was really attracted to I wanted him SO BAD! I blurted out the above. “It’s too soon” so he kept dating me and snuggling up to me whispering, “Too soon?” I finally blurted out “I would be looking to be in the girlfriend position” What I meant was…let’s don’t go there unless there is a chance…oh I don’t know WHAT I meant. I had earlier said that I didn’t do casual because my heart would get involved. I was trying to say it in non-manipulative ways. However I finally blurted out that I would be “looking to be in the girlfriend position” EVERYONE MALE AND FEMALE ABSOLUTELY JUMPED MY ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        I have felt complete humilation ever since blurting that out. I guess the strategy goes something like this: Don’t ever show your cards.

        If he had been into me of course none of this would have happened. He would have been the one to bring up being the girlfriend because he wouldn’t have wanted me dating others…er…I think. I don’t think he lost interest because I said that. I think he was only after sex and when I said that he skedaddled, but what humiliates me is I think he skedaddled with a big sense of disdain because I had obviously read John Gray or something.

        Susan, do you think today women can really say, “I would be willing when you are ready to make me your girlfriend?” That’s the MAIN thing I want to know on this blog.

        I met the right guy shortly after that…but my ego still smarts over that one when some people jumped my **** for saying basically “I only do sex when I am in a relationship” — which was OK in the mid-80’s.

        Sorry I am so lame. I think today we are supposed to “appear too cool to read John Gray” or to be risk-averse or something. I was told that guys think women manipulate them via sex, and so saying “I need to be the girlfriend first” is manipulating them through sex and the wrongest thing a woman can do, apparently.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          That conversation is very tricky to get right. The timing has to be right, and you need to accurately read all the signals you’re getting. I imagine that if you had really looked at his behavior, you might have seen that he wasn’t demonstrating caring, just attraction.

          One way I’ve heard it expressed is “I don’t do casual.” I like that – it’s not saying, “I want to be your girlfriend.” It’s not making any commitment or asking for one. It’s just saying, I prefer relationship sex. A woman can say that and still be undecided about whether the man she’s seeing is worth dating. Of course, if a woman says she won’t do casual, a man is likely, perhaps quite reasonably, to protest that it is too soon to make a real commitment. In that case, the two can negotiate it. But personally, I think the woman should get an honest reading on what the guy is looking for, and whether he is considering her for the role.

          Ultimatums are painful for all involved, and pride often gets in the way for both parties. I prefer a statement of what I want, what my limits are, and what I’m willing to walk away over.

        • Snowdrop111

          Thanks, Susan. I wish you would have an entire blog post on how to negotiate that time in a dating situation (not a relationship yet if ever) and not seem manipulative. I was willing to walk away, but talked too much. But I should have read his signals up to then better, and kept saying “I don’t do casual.”

          Other people said don’t even make out because it makes the guy angry to stop. This idea ticks me of quite a bit. I grew up making out and stopping, because it was normal in that era. Guys would smile and say “I guess a guy’s gonna try” but not be really mad.

          Is it true the hookup era has killed making out, because if you make out and stop, you’re manipulative and a tease? ugh.

          I hate being the dummy with the world’s stupidest questions about this. But I don’t think everyone else gets it right. What I see happening is many women who appear to be negotiating that early period with aplomb, really have early sex and then have disappointment later after a few dates when he stops calling and they text him and he finally says “I’m confused, I guess I’m not ready for a relationship.” Somehow that’s better these days because the woman didn’t make out and stop on an early date thus being a tease, and the woman didn’t say “I only have sex in the context of a relationship” thus being manipulative.

    • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

      I’ve been known to say, “yeah you can spend the night at my apartment, but I am not going to sleep with you tonight. or next week. but I’ll let you know when I am ready. No wonder it took me 24 years to find a guy to put with me?
      .-= Deidre´s last blog ..Holla at your girl, dawg. =-.

      • Tupp!

        Well Deidre. Do you hava fantasic sex ? If you don´t well are you sure you are ment for eachother ?

        • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

          Um, I am not sure why the quality of my sex life pertains to the content in my comment. I was trying to, and probably failed, to agree with susan. That some girls will say and talk about sex openly with the guys they’re dating so that they are on the same page. I don’t want some guy to think he is going to get laid just because I invite him over for dinner at my apartment, because that’s not who I am. And some girls won’t just sleep with a guy without feeling like she is in a safe committed relationship.
          .-= Deidre´s last blog ..Holla at your girl, dawg. =-.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Virtual High 5

        • Tupp!

          If you have a strategy to find a partner. It will affect your sexlife big time.
          Is that not what we are talking about. So in other words how your sexlife turns out, says someting about your strategy….

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    Talks about his long term ex-girlfriends, picks you up at the airport, takes long walks along the river with you, takes you out to dinner, breaks up with you because you say you are ready to sleep with him and he says “think again, because I want to sleep with you and lots of other girls too”

    Oh wait, that was just mr. slurpee. PLAYA.
    .-= Deidre´s last blog ..Holla at your girl, dawg. =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh my goodness. That literally made my pulse race. Thank heaven you are done with him. I will give him credit for the Think Again. As shallow as he was, many guys would have gone for the sex and ridden the train for as long as possible.

      IC is to Mr. Slurpee as Jedi is to Sith!

  • Aldonza

    You don’t want to fall for a player? Simple. Stop playing. Because even a nice guy will become a player if he thinks you’re playing.

    Here’s the thing, most guys will take sex when they can get it. But they secretly de-value sex they didn’t have to work for. It’s like walking up to someone on the street and handing them a diamond. Any sane person would take the diamond, but you can be sure that most of them think it’s fake.

    If a guy wants just sex from you, he’ll move on pretty quickly if he can’t get it. Or he’ll keep you on a long leash with texts, maybe even hanging out sometimes, but clearly not invest much time or money in you. (Yes, I said money.) This is *not* a relationship. This is him hedging his bets.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If a guy wants just sex from you, he’ll move on pretty quickly if he can’t get it.

      True story. Many guys will move on if they don’t get it the first night! Those same guys, btw, will move on anyway. So why do it, unless you’re a player too?

      • Michael

        So refuse sex, the guy moves on.

        Have sex, the guy moves on.

        Pretty tough decision, right?

        • Aldonza

          You don’t have to refuse it. Just don’t give it away. There is a wide range of choices between “virgin until marriage” and “sleep with every guy who buys you a drink.” If a man believes that you have not been selective in who you sleep with, even if your actual number is very low, you lose value in his eyes.

  • Vincent Ignatius

    Pretty good advice.

    But I thank the whimsical forces of evolution for programming girls to go for players despite all the red flags. Hell, the red flags are often what get girls really hooked.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Vincent, I’m glad you came by! This thread would not have been complete without your blessing. Indeed, I believe that you have nothing to worry about, at least in the timeframe during which you are likely to care. You seem to very effectively employ the Red Flag Strategy.

  • Nicoliee

    I think everyone should give players a chance. Because after all, players have above average look and nice body. We should be a player and play the game along too. Just gotta dump him before he dumps you. If everything works out and you end up sleeping with him, get up really early in the morning or leave the night, say something like “I have early breakfast date tomorrow.” and then disappear. If he calls, then don’t pick up for one time, but do so if he calls the second time. HAHAHA im not sure if this method works in real life.
    10 years later, it would be on the list of crazy things you did. “Hooked Up w A Hot Playa”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hi Nicoliee, welcome, and thanks for leaving a comment! Players definitely can be played, but you have to have a gut made of iron to pull this off. If a woman wants to hook up with a player and can do so without getting emotionally invested at all, sure why not. It’s just that few women are made this way. By the time they’re picking up that phone the second time, they’re desperate to see him again, and he’s got the upper hand after all.

      • Michael

        If a woman wants to hook up with a player and can do so without getting emotionally invested at all, sure why not. It’s just that few women are made this way.

        This is clearly a defect, a defect that should be overcome.

        People sometimes get attached to alcohol or heroin even to their deteriment; it takes discipline to overcome such attachments.

        Similarly, attachments to people can sometimes be detrimental; it takes discipline to overcome such attachments.

        To put it short, women need discipline so that they do not become emotionally attached unless they want to be attached.
        .-= Michael´s last blog ..Michael is now friends with eldorado Restaurant lounge =-.

  • Sex Cult Kool Aid Vomit

    Nicoliee: im not sure if this method works in real life

    IT DOES!!!!!!!!

    Believe me. Leaving his place right after the sex keeps him wondering if he was a dud in bed or not, which often results in him calling you the next day. However, if you don’t answer that call, he will assume he was a dud and be too ashamed to call you a second time. So as far as answering that first call or not, it’s a double-edged sword. With player types it’s always a must to turn the game back on ‘em and leave ‘em guessing. That hamster in their head will be winning marathons! LOL….

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Noted in passing, data from MIT:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V129/N49/survey.html

    Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Interesting, MIT students have about as much sex as students at Harvard, Yale and Princeton, all of whom have reported this kind of information. Surprising. I’m not sure whether this has to do with self-reporting being unreliable, or whether stereotypes about brainy guys are invalid. Also, I’m not sure of the current sex ratio at MIT, but that makes this data even more surprising.

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  • Snowdrop111

    What’s missing from that (or I missed it) is how many respondents were from other cultures where virginity is more common?

  • Polyamorous Desi

    (yeah, new moniker, it’s a habit)

    Susan, I have to disagree with you that it is difficult for a woman to play a player without getting attached before the second phone call. Even as far back as the 1950s and earlier, women were “dating” more than one man at the same time. In fact, this was PREFERRED by the parents of student girls in the 1950s (when dating became mainstream due to the post industrialization era’s gift of places to go like drive-in movies, soda shops, etc). The reason parents preferred their daughters seeing more than one boy at the same time than “going steady” was because “going steady” meant the pair was “becoming serious” and thus increased the risk of pre-marital sexual activity. Parents preferred their daughters go to the movies with Johnny one week and the soda shop with Richie the next. Of course back then, pre-marital High School or College sex was not the norm by a long shot. Dating meant just that – “dating”. However, this does not mean OXYTOCIN was absent. Any activity that “bonds” people together causes OXYTOCIN to flow (or vice versa). So getting attached to just one boy to the exclusion of the other suitors was also a risk, but yet if you talk to old women who were young during that time era, most of them talk about how they dated more than one boy at the same time and liked them all, though of course preferences occured and that’s when you might start “going steady”.

    Perhaps because “hooking up” means sex, and the OXYTOCIN flows more abundantly if you have an orgasm, we are assuming that women are incapable of NOT becoming attached early on.

    Experiment for the single women here: keep 3 boys on rotation for at least a month and see if you get overly attached to anyone one of them. My experience is that rather than 1 extracting all or most of your affection, your affection will be evenly divided between the 3, provided all 3 of them have at least 1 quality or personality characteristic that you find engaging.

    The problem of “oneitis” only occurs when a woman has zero other interesting options (and I’m not talking here of women who make a conscious decision to enter into a mutually agreed upon monogamous relationship with a man, that is different).

    Personally I prefer the old style of dating where a girl kept any number of suitors on rotation until she was deemed mature enough to “go steady” (which was expected at some point to result in a marriage proposal).

    This new-fangled “hook up culture” really does us a disservice if we are getting emotionally OVER-attached to just 1 dude who has no intention of “going steady” with us, what to speak of proposing.

    Ladies: REDISCOVER THE ART OF PLAYING THE FIELD!

    Cast your nets wide and far. Foreign exchange students are a great gene pool!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know you love changing your name, but please consider settling on one. If you keep changing it, you can never really be a regular. At Obs’ blog I could not keep your characters straight, and for a while thought that you and Deery were the same person!

      I think that women do tend to bond with their sexual partners. If a guy is player, and shows all those signs of risky behavior that women are often drawn to, then you’re bonding with a guy who is bad news. This won’t be true for all women, but many women can’t have sex with a guy they are really attracted to and walk away indifferent.

      You’re right – when I was growing up we did date a number of people at once, and that might well include kissing or making out with different guys in one weekend. Ironically, that is frowned upon now, because it’s considered “double dipping,” the hallmark of a player.

      It’s true that hookup culture has taken away decision-making power from women, because it is frowned upon to have guys in rotation. The “bro code” doesn’t help – once a guy has hooked up with a girl, his friends will often stay away for a period of time, or perhaps forever if it was regular.

      • Michael

        I think that women do tend to bond with their sexual partners. If a guy is player, and shows all those signs of risky behavior that women are often drawn to, then you’re bonding with a guy who is bad news. This won’t be true for all women, but many women can’t have sex with a guy they are really attracted to and walk away indifferent.

        Perhaps women should practice emotional and mental discipline so that they would only bond with someone after vetting them.

        And you might not have heard of this before, but people can form emotional bonds even without sex.

      • Snowdrop111

        As recently as the early 90’s, I went to a talk by a woman who said “The proper way to date lots of guys is not to sleep with any of them.” Dating multiple guys and not sleeping with any of them until a relationship developed isn’t from the 50’s it’s as recent as the early 90’s. How did things get so turned around so quickly, such that dating multiple guys and not sleeping with any of them is frowned on???

        • Michael

          How did things get so turned around so quickly, such that dating multiple guys and not sleeping with any of them is frowned on???

          Generosity is a virtue.

  • Polyamorous Desi

    The more scientific article/blogs you read regarding sexuality and oxytocin’s role, the more “detached” you become from it. One has to decide BEFOREHAND: am I going to sleep with this man solely for the purpose of sexual satisfaction or am I going to allow myself to get swept away in the illusion of oxytocin for more than just one night?

    You have to make a decision. If you decide, “this dude’s a player and I’m going to play him, pump and dump him” … then you can enjoy the hour or so of oxytocin flow, bask in it’s glory, affirm out loud “its only chemicals” and get up and leave.

    OXYTOCIN is not “love” – it just makes you feel high and bonded for some time. Logic should always overrule emotions outside of a real relationship (spousal or familial).

    It’s a matter of knowing the score BEFOREHAND.

    Ladies: Before going out on the town prowling or returning a booty call, simply log on to a science site and type “oxytocin” in the search bar, read for a good half hour or so, then get dressed, go out and neg your target!

    • Michael

      This is great advice. I would follow this myself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, you are a funny one! I like that – neg your target! This is the kind of thing that drove Obisidian crazy :-)

  • Polyamorous Desi

    I’m currently watching “Couples Retreat” online. Anyone see it? Kind of funny, but also a social commentary about marrieds vs singles, sexual attraction and “love”.

  • Polyamorous Desi

    Oh, and the older black lady said the young guys are callin’ her a “cougar” and “black panther”.

    LOL!!! I guess black panther is code for older black woman on the prowl.

  • Too Tall Jones

    Susan Walsh Reply:
    OK, I understand. I think a woman needs to say what is on her mind, not leave a guy wondering what she feels. She may say, “I really like you, but this feels too soon for sex. I will be ready to have sex when you are willing to make me your girlfriend.” That’s really what women want – the commitment. So as long as both people are open and communicating, it should work out OK. If you are looking for a good girl, then you should be willing to commit when you find one, no?

    I agree with stating a need for commitment but I think the above example might be going a bit too far in a “no early sex” strategy, at least some of the time. A shrewd player will simply, cynically, tell her what she wants to hear. Also by her saying “unless you make me your girlfriend” she puts herself under a subtle obligation to indeed have sex after the player makes her his apparent girlfriend. In other words, she has set up a situation that (a) makes it more easy for the player to manipulate her, (b) infuses a looming obligation.
    SHe needs to keep the playa off balance.

    I am not saying your approach may not work for some women, far from it, but I think there could be also productive outcomes with a more indirect approach. Such as: “I really like you, but I don’t have sex until I really, really get to know someone in depth.”

    This is more vague, but it will put the player in a dilemma. He doesn’t know what he has to say to make his score. He has no quick manipulation, no easy hot button. The “really, really know someone” might take a year, or a week. The indirect approach also releases a woman from a sense of obligation. If she DOES become his girlfriend, she is STILL under no obligation to have sex with him- unlike the first method which implies a subtle obligation. Just a thought..

    • Robin

      Great suggestion – I think it’s a great way to read intrest!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I concur! I do love it when the guys deliver by coughing up their secrets!

      OK, so what do you think of “I don’t do casual?” I know a young woman who said this, and the guy balked. He was out of there fast. I saw that as a blessing – he basically said NO STRINGS, period. It seems to me that if a guy was looking for a relationship, and wanted a woman with a limited sexual history, her saying that would qualify her as LTR material.

  • Too Tall Jones

    Tuppi said:
    So if a girl want to wait with sex she really must show to the man that she is interested in him sexually anyway. Why should a man invest a lot of energy in a girl if she doesn´t do the same ?

    I disagree with that Tuppi. If a girl wants to wait to have sex, she need not fall over herself, really shwoing that she is sexually interested in a man. Wrong strategy. That weakens her bargaining power, and makes her easier to manipulate. I would recommend a more INDIRECT strategy. If she wants to wait, she can maintain the man’s interest in a wide variety of subtle ways. The sexual drive of males can be strung along or indeed brought to a flame, by a shrewd woman who withholds herself. Five simple examples:

    (a) Allowing him brief touches for example, but not too much- and not getting into physically unsafe situations.
    (b) Dressing really seductively, with seductive scents he can take in.
    (c) Letting her hair or skin “accidentally” brush him- inflaming his senses.
    (d) Flattering him with good conversation and praise. Men love this- they feel manly.
    (e) Cooking him a nice meal, and showing other indicators of “wifely” type care.

    All these things will string a man along quite nicely, and help a woman nail down the ones she is interested in, particularly if she makes a real effort to take care of her health and appearance.

    Oh yes- I know some playas will dismiss the above,m and say unless the gal “puts out” or shows she is “ready to put out” they are not interested. To that I say fine. Hit the road guy. A woman who practices the subtle arts of seduction as detailed in the 5 examples above does not need to pursue any self-styled alphas. Alphas are overblown. Say the word “alpha” and all women within hearing distance are supposed to drop down worshipfully? Puhleeze.. IN truth, the above methods will do nicely for would be alphas and all the rest.

    I had a Polish-Italian girl hit me with the above some years ago. She was no beauty queen, but not bad-looking either. Still I tried to keep her at arms length. But she was subtle, and kept encouraging me subtly, all the while withholding herself, never appearing too eager, and always maintaining decorum. After several conversations over some weeks, one pasta dinner and her long black hair brushing against my arm “accidentally” too many times, she got inside my head, and I really got to thinking that she maybe was not that bad after all. Certain things then happened, but let’s not go there… :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Interesting. Many guys would call this teasing, but it sounds like your saying that men enjoy being teased, or at least that it’s an effective strategy for heightening a man’s interest. You also point out something else that is worth noting. The woman who was so effective in getting into your head was not a beauty, and she had to have known that. It didn’t hold her back though – she had an arsenal of seductive tricks up her sleeve. That sounds like good strategy, and the less natural beauty a woman has, the bigger her toolkit will need to be.

  • Too Tall Jones

    PS: *^ The beauty of the above strategy is that she could always back away gracefully, and not feel foolish versus if she had thrown herself at me desperately and then have to endure a rejection. The weeks also allowed her to size me up in greater depth, to tell if I was worth her effort. It was a two way street though. I saw enough of her to consider her worth the effort. We had enough time to mutually come to that conclusion, but could both back away and save face if need be.

  • Polyamorous Desi

    Advice from a well-seasoned player:

    “A WISE GIRL KISSES BUT DOESN’T LOVE, LISTENS BUT DOESN’T BELIEVE AND LEAVES BEFORE SHE IS LEFT”

    *Marilyn Monroe*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Um, things didn’t work out so well for her.

    • Aldonza

      A quote I like better:
      “I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best.”
      — Marilyn Monroe

  • Polyamorous Desi

    Doesn’t mean it’s not good advice. And she was certainly sought after by many men!

  • Snowdrop111

    Thanks, Susan and Too Tall. This was a great discussion and answered my questions.

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  • yggdrasil

    HEY HEY! Where were you 10 years ago!?

    Honestly, I’ve been a beta for awhile, and I’ve gotten lonely. Started reading the game!

    Ha ha. Definitely worked on my approach with getting casual encounters.

    Stop outing me before I’ve had my fun :p

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, don’t worry, there will be plenty of women who aren’t wise to your ways. But here’s a thought – how about using Game to get and sustain a LTR?

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  • vivianne

    i’m dating this guy who I KNOW is a player, not because of all this signs, but because I have his fb password lol… he is really sweet, he’s taken me out on dates, we’ve kissed in public, we’ve had sex a couple of times and he’s definitely made an effort.. and even though we’ve had sex, he is still around!… well, he travels alot because of work.. and in his fb i saw he’s sending messages to this girl who lives in another country, and he’s told a couple of guy friends about girls he’s had sex with in his visits to other countries.. so… i have no idea of what kind of player this is… :S.. is this the kind of player who looks for affection instead of sex or what? i’m totally confused!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @vivianne

      Well, it sounds like he is definitely looking for sex, maybe with a regular partner and international flings on the side. Whatever kind he is, it’s a bad kind. If you want a relationship, you need to ask him point blank if he is currently having sex with other people, and if he wants to be exclusive. You also don’t say whether this is something he’s lied about – if so, it’s a dealbreaker.

  • W

    How to not fall for a player, in MUCH simpler terms:

    Don’t get sprung on a guy right out of the gate. If you’re wanting to hookup quickly, realize there’s a good chance that’s all it’s going to be. Be okay with that.

    Then, if it blows up in your face, you haven’t put your emotions on the line.

    And, if it’s gonna grow into something it will.

    (And, I don’t think you’re wrong in your post here, I just think you’re overlooking the fundamental problem: Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.)

  • W

    Oh, and reading back over the previous comments:

    1) I tend to agree with Poly D.

    2)@viviene: a guy letting you have his fb password is dumb. He’s inviting fights, when he should be creating good will and having a good time. Besides, giving you a fb password proves nothing, and he oughta realize you’re smart enough to know that. (and if you acquired his password through dubious means, you deserve whatever hell you’ve created for yourself.)

    My perspective:
    I’m the sort who likes having a few girls around, and I definitely seek affection over sex. Then again, I wouldn’t claim to be typical. I think the only real ethical violation there would be implying that there’s more goiong on than is. I just say that I’m having fun, but I like to spoil women a bit. (100% truth.)

    And, WRT Susan’s comments:
    My whole thinking on things is: I’m a good guy, and I genuinely want to have fun with a girl, and treat her well, but I’m not getting serious for a while. If I’m not misrepresenting that, do you really think a girl is wrong for choosing me over a guy who’s relatively boring? (and yeah… that’s probably rhetorical. I’ve read enough of your blog to know where you stand there.)

  • WarmWoman

    Sorry to bump up an old topic, but thanks for clarifying my gut instincts on touching the lower back, intruding your personal space, too much eye-contact where it makes you feel creepy, and pressuring for sex early are all tell-tale signs of a man that’s not potential LTR material.

    I’m a bit disturbed at 30-year old female acquaintances in the past that dismiss these red flags as “typical man behavior.” No honey, a man that’s serious about you doesn’t do that.

  • Sam

    Here’s a little excerpt from my diary from when I was 17 on what to do/not to do with guys.

    What to do: Always act happy, only call him back, mention other guys, act as though he is lucky to be with you, be confident. Overall: Make him want you more than you want him.

    What not to do: Act depressed, call too much, say “I love you” before he does, treat him like he’s better than you, show that you’re insecure, think about other girls he’s been with. Overall: Don’t be clingy. Be confident!

    Why as women do we still have to deal with this? *sigh* it never ends…

  • linda

    HI there, I met this guy whom I am deeply infatuated with. He started like the same person you have described above. Sweet words, goodnight, sweetdreams and he also paid for dinner and lunches. He turn from hot to cold very fast. One night he came over to my house after we make amends as he had terrible turn too cold and he said he missed me. The night turn out right and we kissed, cuddled and make out but at the back of my head there is something missing so we didn’t go all the way. It was long hours of romancing but the next day he did not call me. When he did, he just said he is sorry that he had gone too far and he is not after of committed relationship. I was – WHAT? its too close into saying, hey I do not want to have relationship and I just want to f…k you. Sad but at times the woman’s mind is so hard to command. We still like the guy even if we have a hard blow of this kind of player. I wanted to figure him out or hoping he will change. I also do not understand why he keep coming back, I want to know what his feelings towards me but seems like an answer is not even possible. Now, are these players get attracted with women or they just will bang any woman they find? I do not understand why he said he wanted us to be friends still, is this a way of him hoping he will have sex with me?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @linda

      I have no idea what his motives are but he told you what you need to know: He is not interested in a relationship. Your best bet is to refuse to be friends with him, you have nothing to gain from that. Cut off all contact. You deserve a guy who does want a relationship!

  • nick

    im a playa and a good person except for the fact i sleep with a fair few women none of whom complain before, during and (for a shortnwhile after) its a difficult debate i mean women are quite sensitive and i know some have their feelings hurt to varying degrees but honestly we playas are not searching to hurt anybody and most of my playa buddies would stopm if they found the right woman, we are not sociopaths its just when you have the assets of a playa u usually seek something unotainable. ( Also fact there is an ever growing number of female playas out there, watch out boys)

  • Linda

    Hi Susan and Nick,

    I really do not understand the player logic. Susan, my heart ruled and after the holidays we met and I thought he missed me and then you are right I should have just shut everything off with him.

    We still manage to keep friendships and we even exchanged Christmas gifts. As mentioned, I thought he missed me and things happen and I set my foot on very hot grounds as in almost doing things all the way. I just would like to ask you both as it really puzzles me as to what sort of women these player normally ended up to? He was divorced, I was told that the woman was nice and it was basically his fault why the divorce happened but she just ranaway with his money. A new gf comes, more or less a player type who do one night stand thing but also spent his money. Whereas, I am not any of the two women so I was at first just depending on my assessments that I am not like them he might change his views about relationship. I just do not know why, but for some reasons I found this man is actively checking dating website and even sent a message to one of my friends who have an account in one of these site. I really do not understand the logic, are these men just sick and do not want to get hooked? Or they just try to use excuses of their bad past to play on women who are not supposed to be played with as they are decent women who values commitment.

  • Linda

    Another thing, in his profile he mentioned he wanted to be with someone in his life. After that evening where we had that thing going and we stopped doing it. He mentioned that it is hard because I wanted a relationship and it will affect our friendship. I have read and re read the post and comments from this and yes all the redflags where there. I just do not know what is the best strategy for me as I still meet him at work and he we exchanged smiles and short chat. At times, the hurt me wanted to have revenge or just tell him how a douche bag he is. But, for some reasons I still could not get over him too. I do not know if its the hope of me thinking he will change or I am just being a nice person who wants a man to behave well. I fell so sad of the type of man unveiled to me when he appears to be too nice and well loved by many of our work mates. I feel bad because I could not even share what I have experienced with him to anyone because the man I have discovered is not visible and he seems to be a very independent yet reserved type of person whom you will not see as a player. I feel determined to move on, but, I also feel so sad how this man I have valued has turned out to be. I could not imagine how he might get HIV with all the random sex he is trying to source out with online dating sites.

  • Andy

    Explain what a non player is then smarty pants, you basically described most of the above as good ol fashion ways of meeting girls, I mean obvious things you said are apparent but how the hell is a legit dude supposed to act after reading this? I wont even know how to act in front of the next gal now that you narrowed down that any nice gestures or nice words are not nice?

    Talk about confusing society

    weird

  • Cat5

    “Yes, there is definitely a female equivalent of the player. It’s fair to say that everyone should be judged on their actions, not their words. A woman who you take to a party and flirts with all your friends. A woman who seems much more comfortable in the company of men instead of women. The woman player is really just the flip side of the guy player. Bad news.”

    I have always wondered why I attract players far more than nice guys, and I don’t want to…I want to be in a ltr. But, the second part of your statement about, “A woman seems much more comfortable in the company of men instead of women.” That would be me. The problem is that I grew up with a male twin, and I was a bit of a tomboy, so we were always doing guy things. Don’t get me wrong, I can cook and do all that…as can my twin, but we can both fix cars also. Our parents didn’t limit us in the male/female roles…of course, until we were teenagers and started dating.

    So, I probably have a log of masculine energy (for lack of a better term), and a bit of swagger. I can also be flirty at times. So, the question is — how do I change it or at least tone it down a little so I don’t keep attracting players or chase off good guys because they think I’m a player?

  • Man

    No wonder there are so many single girls out there. Recalling my experiences I would not pass many of these filters. And I don’t think I am a “player”.

    I think that girls need to be smarter and give the benefit of doubt, if she thinks he’s a good guy (note: I wrote a GOOD GUY) and see how he behaves towards her along the dates, using this check-list. But in the end, I think it’s really not so easy for women to tell the difference, especially because they are mostly passive in the process of dating, expecting men to approach and pursue them.

  • Plain Jain

    “Don’t hate the player hate the game”

    Don’t date the player. Become the game.

  • James

    I fit this list pretty decently, and I can say that I am something of a cad.

    I am, however, honest as fuck. I drop the hint that I’m seeing many people, that I’m dubious about long-term relationships as I’ve experienced them before and they just don’t hold a candle to adventuresome flings, and that inevitably in long-term relationships people get taken for granted, instead of appreciated for their uniqueness — as tends to happen at the beginning of relationships.

    I’m highly empathetic and REALLY hate hurting people. As far as I’m concerned, people are really the only thing that matter in this world, so hurting them is just dumb.

  • Justin

    A couple things about this:

    I am not a player at all, but I have had crazy girls think that they have some claim to me based on one drunken hookup, flirtation, conversation, or just because of her feelings for me. When you are not a player, women think your interest is special. The biggest players I know don’t get stalked or harassed much because:
    A. Women don’t expect much from a one night thing, or
    B. Women want him and don’t want to scare him off.

    A player might get a little bit of stalkerish action, but no more than the non-player.

    Nervousness during first kiss? Not always the sign of a good guy. I have been with my girlfriend for almost a year and a half and I was not nervous at all, and my first kiss was definitely a full on tongue affair and we ended up in bed together. A guy who is nervous might not be confident enough. Granted, if he grabs you and starts sucking face right after meeting, it’s not a good sign, but I wouldn’t look for nervousness on his part.

    Also, I think it’s funny that you tell guys “Dudes! Change your privacy settings!” It reinforces that women want the player, but don’t really want to know he’s a player.