Enhanced Breasts are Freaky Breasts

There are few pastimes that Americans love more than tracking celebrity screwups. Of course, celebrities never fail to disappoint. Seeing pictures like these, I’ve often wondered why so many actresses get boob jobs. Victoria Beckham, Tori Spelling and Lil Kim often get ridiculed for their terrible breasts:

Obviously, some men will feel differently (no pun intended) and I do admit to a certain regional bias. Women in the Northeast are far less likely to put themselves under the knife in general. In fact, I know several young women who have had breast-reduction surgery, and none who have had breast enhancements. Still, I spot them occasionally, and whenever I do it reminds me that I need to stop by Whole Foods for fresh produce (Hat tip: Dr. House).

In the news lately is Heidi Montag, a rather wholesome looking young woman who recently had 10 cosmetic surgeries performed in a single day. Consider the Before and After shots:

She has taken those puppies from an A cup to an F! Together with the other changes, I think she looks like a tranny pole dancer.   *Shudders* Heidi Montag says she did it for career opportunities, and she has reportedly gotten a couple of new gigs, including a Ron Howard video and a cameo in an Adam Sandler movie. The only problem is, both roles are characters who have had way too much plastic surgery. Translation: she is now officially a freak.

A recent New York Time article describes how studios are refusing to cast women with breast implants. Fox Broadcasting has started searching for talent in Australia and the UK, unable to find any natural looking women in LA. Marcia Shulman who oversees casting for Fox’s scripted shows, says:

I think everyone either looks like a drag queen or a stripper.

Period films and costume dramas have long used only natural breasts, and now Disney has joined the ranks. Casting the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, casting director Sande Alessi has insisted on seeing a photo of every actress in a bathing suit, and says she can guess correctly 100% of the time. No matter what agents claim, Ms. Alessi trusts her own judgment, and has no use for enhanced breasts. Shawn Levy, director of Date Night says:

The era of ‘I look great because I did this to myself’ has passed. It is viewed as ridiculous.

Mr. Armageddon is a blogger who wrote about his preference for natural breasts in the post List of Ugly Women Everyone Thinks Are Hot:

The proof is in the pudding. Fake breasts are a lot like video. Technically, video is clearer than film because it has no grain. But that’s the problem. The human eye has a natural grain, so film–which is grainy–looks better than video. Seriously, close your eyes tightly right now. You’ll be able to see your eye’s natural grain. Now look at a live television broadcast as compared to a prerecorded one. The prerecorded one will look more realistic. Why? Because video is too perfect. It’s the same with fake breasts. Observe:

I don’t care how big or small a pair of jugs may be, real boobs sag. Unless the girl’s chest is as flat as her back, gravity’s gonna kick in at some point. Fake boobs, however, hardly sag at all. They constantly maintain an almost perfectly circular shape, which real boobs don’t do. See?

Don’t buy it? Try this one:

The more apt comparison would have been a woman with small natural breasts and this monstrosity on the right. The truth is that we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and male preferences vary quite a bit. There are many men who prefer small breasts, and others who are much more focused on legs or ass.

I’d been giving this quite a bit of thought when I came across an essay in Real Simple magazine by the writer Anne Roiphe. The magazine asked several women what makes them feel beautiful and she wrote a lovely piece about her late husband, just before he died five years ago at the age of 82. An excerpt:

Anne Roiphe, 75

“About a week before my seemingly healthy 82-year-old husband suddenly died, he emerged from the kitchen ready to go to his office, his face clean-shaven, his eyes shining, smiling shyly, holding the copy of the Anthony Trollope book he was rereading, and said to me, “You have made me very happy. You know that you have made me a happy man.” There I stood in my work outfit, blue jeans and a T-shirt. There I stood with my white hair and my wrinkles and the face I was born with, although now much creased by time, and I felt beautiful.

I don’t believe that inner beauty is sufficient in this cruel world… but I do know that there is a way of being beautiful, even as age takes its toll, that has something to do with the spirit filling with joy, something to do with the union with another human being, with the sense of having done well at something enormously important, like making happy a man who has made you happy often enough.

Ten days after that morning conversation, my husband and I returned from a concert and dinner with friends and walked down our windy block toward our apartment house when suddenly he stumbled and fell and died within minutes. As I waited for the ambulance, I remembered his words, a beauty potion I would take with me into the rest of my life.”

Anne Roiphe has been fortunate. She has made good choices and valued the love of a good man. Young women would do well to emulate her, not the neurotic and self-obsessed celebrities whose self-image is grossly distorted, even pathological.

Anne Roiphe knows what real beauty is, and it has nothing to do with breast size. I think hers is the most beautiful photo on the page.

  • dragnet

    Roiphe’s words are beautiful, and really touching. They are the words of someone who understands duty, sacrifice, and obligation—someone who “values the love of a good man”. I think this kind of wisdom can probably only come with age, unfortunately.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m afraid it’s the kind of wisdom mostly found in a bygone age. She was married for 39 years, and while I’m sure she did her share of duty and sacrifice, it’s clear that she loved her husband deeply. He clearly felt he had the love of a good woman. They made each other happy.

      She came of age in a time of much less instrasexual competition, when women did their best to make the most of what they had, but didn’t even consider altering themselves to the point of being unrecognizable. Men and women accepted each other as less than perfect – the focus was not so much on the physical. And yet I think women were a lot more feminine.

  • Chili

    This is kind of a “duh.”

    Men don’t even like fake breasts. So it’s obviously not done as a way to impress them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is that true? If men don’t like them, then why do women get them? Clearly, women believe that men will find them sexier with implants. I would imagine men would prefer naturally large breasts, but are they more likely to choose a woman will very small breasts, or surgically enhanced ones?

    • Aldonza

      Most of the men I know like them just fine. Not necessarily on the sweet little thing they intend to marry, but at strip clubs and on movie actresses? Sure! The more the better! You won’t find a lot of un-enhanced women in men’s magazines for a reason.

      I think what we have now is the ability to take natural signs of attraction and fertility and make caricatures out of them. The big, puffy lips, heavy makeup, hair extensions, boob jobs, lipo on the waist, but never on the ass. Look at someone like Pamela Anderson at her peak. She is a walking, talking billboard of fertility signs…taken to the extreme limits. A woman like that exists in nature almost never.

      The problem with all of this is that it skews our perceptions of what normal beauty really is. It becomes like performance-enhancing drugs where the guys who aren’t juicing, but are working hard and naturally talented are seen as “average”.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        This is it exactly. It’s really a comment on our culture. Perhaps as we become ever more hypersexualized, we look further and further afield of the norm to get a look that is desirable to men. And we can say that men don’t like all the fakery, but as you say, Playboy bunnies and Maxim centerfolds have all had boob jobs done.

        The New York Times recently ran this article on girls as young as 11 getting into some serious makeup. Their mothers are on board, taking them to the makeup counter for a scheduled “makeover.”


        These girls are signaling fertility while they are still pre-pubescent. How will they keep ratcheting up the attractiveness for the next 20 years?

  • GudEnuf

    Nobody ever says they like fake breasts, because they only notice the ugly ones. When implants are done well, nobody calls them implants because we think they are naturally large.

    And not all implants are round. They make teardrop ones now.


    When people talk about “real beauty”, they’re often trying to comfort people who do not feel beatiful. “Sure you may not be beautiful under this dumb standard” they say, “but under the real standard, you the most beautiful person in the world.”

    The problem is, no matter what standard you use to define “real beauty,” some people will fit it better than others. We can’t all be intelligent, interesting people with a knack for empathy (or whatever your standard of beauty is). Some people are ugly, and will have difficulty attracting the people they want. It’s disrespectful to tell ugly people they are beautiful and that somehow God/the world/LofA will take care of them.

    • Chili

      in other words: IT’S ALL RELATIVE. so true, but it makes it so hard to have coherent debates when you realize it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, I’m partial to the law of attraction, myself. I don’t think that if your face is busted, big fake boobs are going to catapult you to a new level of attractiveness. An unfortunate person in that reality should seek a mate with the same general level of attractiveness. That’s how it used to work.

      Nearly every woman who has had a fair amount of surgery looks utterly bizarre. In fact, it’s true for men too. MIchael Douglas looks decidedly odd. I read one review of It’s Complicated that complained that Steve Martin, with his 2-3 facelifts, now looks like a smiling snowman with two black coal button eyes, an opinion I agree with.

      As for implants looking natural, I’d have to disagree based on the research I did for this article. Clearly, Hollywood casting agents believe they can tell easily, and they believe that audiences can tell as well. It’s true, too, as blogger Armageddon says, that natural breasts have a pendulous quality. Teardrop implants may be shaped differently, but they don’t droop AT ALL. They can’t, because the woman has little tissue there. The other giveaway is that weird “valley” between two separate boobs.

      Finally, in this era of HD TV, it’s hard to hide the scars. There are numerous online pics of famous women on the red carpet, with clearly visible scars and weird side boob implant bulges.

  • Mule Chewing Briars

    Once again, I don’t know if you can say canonically fake == bad and natural == good. Women have been enhancing their assets since Haphshephut or before. My sister was never visited by the boob fairy in adolescence, but didn’t get surgery until her late 40s. She got very modest, natural-looking implants that don’t interfere with her all-around look. As her brother, I’d have preferred her not to go that route for health reasons, but she says it isn’t an issue. No one meeting her for the first time thinks she’s enhanced at all, but she says all her clothes fit much better.

    She also has implants in her ear that allow her to hear, I should add.

    My sister in law got ginormous, obvious implants and looks outrageous, but she was outrageous with small breasts. The net change in her personality is zero as far as I can tell. She looks fake, but she doesn’t care. She wanted to look outrageous, and my brother doesn’t mind. He loves her outrageousness, not the size of her boobs.

    It seems to me you can kind of tell when the surgery is performed from a position of weakness rather than a position of strength. As far as attracting hotter men after surgery, I would have to go on anecdotal evidence that it works. Both my sister and sister-in-law are happily married women with husbands that were devoted to them before and after the surgery.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Mule, I find it interesting that those two women got implants after they were already married. Clearly, this was something they wanted to do for themselves, not to please men in general, or even their specific men. That suggests that women are so conditioned to feel inadequate in this area that we literally can’t live with small breasts.
      I’m glad they’re healthy, but there are obviously regular announcements by personalities that the implants are coming back out. Sharon Osborne is just the latest one. I think a woman has to be very unhappy with her own body to implant silicone sacs in it. For the record, Heidi Montag reports that it is no longer possible to jog. I guess the lesson there is be careful what you wish for.

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    Heidi Montag grew up on in a small town where my brothers live – apparently when she was pre-teen her life goal was to be famous.

    While I don’t really understand her choice in how to get famous, she did achieve her goals. And in someways you have to to respect that.

    But not her fake boobs. clearly. can’t respect those.
    .-= Deidre´s last blog ..Holla at your girl, dawg. =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Interestingly, she had a meal with her mother that was filmed and shown on TV right after her surgeries. Her mother expressed great distress and disappointment at her altered appearance. Heidi’s reply was that she just had to make these changes so that she would no longer feel ashamed of her looks. There’s something very troubling about that.

      • Kathryn

        I’ve been going to Crested Butte, Colorado (where Heidi is from) every summer since I was born and I can tell you that her actions do NOT reflect the values of the place where she was raised. Like the natural beauty of the landscape, a large majority of the girls there let their natural beauty shine through by not wearing make up and never really looking too dolled up. (And then there’s the extreme Mountain Women that don’t shave their legs. This is a little too much for me.)

        I can only imagine how awful her mother must have felt. Her daughter is unrecognizable. Yes, I guess she achieved her goal, but personally I can’t respect someone who was willing to lose her authentic self in the process.

        I truly believe that a large part of being beautiful comes from within. True beauty cannot just be bought. Beautiful people do not just happen. Even if you are born with naturally good looks, I think that beauty shows through when you feel confident and happy. Honestly, when I feel pretty and sexy it’s because I feel good about myself. I think it’s just tragic that Heidi didn’t feel confident in her own skin and felt the need to conform to the masses. Clearly, she has some issues and it just makes me wonder what kind of medical ethics the doctor performing the surgery has.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Good point about the ethics of plastic surgery. This is like a bad episode of Nip Tuck.

          Re beauty, I agree. There’s something perhaps intangible – a light from within. Perhaps this is something women are more attuned to. I’ve known people that I knew objectively were not gorgeous, but I thought they were physically appealing and attractive because of some inner quality or spark. I’ve also known beautiful women who became uglier and uglier as I got to know them better.

          I agree that feeling good about oneself makes a woman sexy. That’s why men love women who have sex with abandon – a woman has to feel very secure about herself to let it all go.

        • Lisa

          I kind of disagree. Beautiful people do just happen — they have the genetics and that’s it. Some beautiful people are not very nice to be around, and men know they’re bitches, but it doesn’t take them down any notches on the beauty scale. Just because no one wants to be around you / uses you for sex as long as they can stand you doesn’t mean you’re not beautiful objectively.

          Just like women who are ugly but nice people. Just because people love hanging out with you doesn’t mean men will want to date you.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Let’s revisit this bit too, eh? Susan says of Rophie:

    “She came of age in a time of much less instrasexual competition, when women did their best to make the most of what they had, but didn’t even consider altering themselves to the point of being unrecognizable. Men and women accepted each other as less than perfect – the focus was not so much on the physical. And yet I think women were a lot more feminine”.

    Well yes & no. Count Basie did a tune called ‘Taxi War Dance’, about yes, ‘inter-sexual competition on the dance floors of the era. So done a bit differently way back when, but still noticeable & commented upon.

    But this is one of my pet peeves. I really can’t stand them either. Most of the time, it’s pretty easy to tell. And it’s just as easy to see that it really does not add much beyond those exaggerated sex cues that TV& movies seems to fawn over. But for actresses it once was almost required to get the job. Small breasted women are much less visible in Hollywood today, unlike the 1940-50′-60s say w/ Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly, Lauren Bacall et al. And of course the reality is that most women today are considerably larger than in the past (as are the men, in spades actually), they’re by in large going to have larger bust sizes (and do actually). It’s all about fat storage too after all! (I know, runined it for you all, eh?) Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    I’d always be worried about popping them slamming her around the bedroom with my
    .-= Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life´s last blog ..What To Do About The Chemical Warfare In The Marriage Bed =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha! Actually, Athol I remember you wrote a post about the perfect wife, and you were a fan of the B cup, as I recall. I think there is a difference between what a man likes to look at in porn, and what he wants to see in his own marriage bed.

      • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

        Actually I find fake breasts in porn kinda annoying to be honest. They always look badly wrong when the women in any kind of hands and knees position – they get that hanging down “side boob dent” thing that looks stupid.

        Plus you can see the surgical scars half the time as well, and if they are the slightest bit red still I’m like “gee those boobs still hurt you huh”. Major turn off.

        I’m a fan of the B Cup pre-babies. Post babies the B Cups tend to turn into C Cups which ultimately I prefer to B Cups. But then I have a long term perspective on things. :-)

        Honestly though – I’m always thinking medical, these are just extra surgeries that don’t need to happen.
        .-= Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life´s last blog ..What To Do About The Chemical Warfare In The Marriage Bed =-.

  • Sex Cult Kool Aid Vomit

    Tori Spelling’s breasts are what a boob job looks like after you have kids. I have a relative who was an A cup, got a boob job to a C, and now is the proud owner of humongous, pendulous E’s (or bigger) after she gave birth and breast fed. They make her look FAT and she cannot wear the cute tops and dresses she used to. Now she’s thinking of doing another nip and tuck to reign them in.

    Boob jobs WILL SAG after you have kids.

    DRAGNET: Roiphe’s words are beautiful, and really touching. They are the words of someone who understands duty, sacrifice, and obligation—someone who “values the love of a good man”. I think this kind of wisdom can probably only come with age, unfortunately.

    SUSAN: I’m afraid it’s the kind of wisdom mostly found in a bygone age.

    WRONG! You can find this attitude towards marriage everywhere in India (and surrounding countries). Unfortunately, (or fortunately – depending on which side you are on), they don’t arrange marriages with foreigners.

    How is it that we’ve become so jaded that we think the entire world is like us?

  • ATS

    I recall what someone wrote in an article I read a couple of years back, which cracked me up. It went something like, “In a few decades, we’ll be having an overrun of septuagenarians with perky breasts and tramp stamps.”

    Now I have a disturbing visual of Michelle McGee as a 70 year old (though I’m not quite sure if her breasts are fake). *shudder*

    • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

      Bombshell McGee will not have to wait until she’s 70 to be hideous. She’s already there. But the idea of all those tattoo pictures fading and deforming themselves like stretched silly putty – yuck.

      I’ve never seen the value in stuffing plastic sacks of sea water into your bosoms.
      .-= grerp´s last blog ..Piece of Advice #29: Know when to walk away =-.

  • Sex Cult Kool Aid Vomit

    PS: in addition to my comment above regarding my relative’s boob job, and Susan’s comment: “I find it interesting that those two women got implants after they were already married. Clearly, this was something they wanted to do for themselves, not to please men in general, or even their specific men. That suggests that women are so conditioned to feel inadequate in this area that we literally can’t live with small breasts.”

    My relative got her’s because her husband was not initiating sex and she felt that he was not sexually attracted to her. She asked him if bigger boobs would increase his attraction towards her (and improve their sex life) and the answer was in the affirmative. Hence, the boob job.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And how’s his sex drive now that they are pendulous E’s?

      • Sex Cult Kool Aid Vomit

        I think for the time period immediately after the surgery (and recovery time) it had increased, peaked, and then died out. That was always an issue in their marriage. She had a higher libido and was always the “initiator”. It made her feel “unattractive” and she always worried that her husband may have been more sexually attracted to other women than he was to her. My take is that he is just a quiet, shy, sexually reserved kind of guy. Anyway, she’s learned to live without a lot of romance and wild sex. He’s a good husband and father otherwise.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          How unfortunate that she had surgery and it made no difference! Obviously, if the man had a normal sex drive, he would have been initiating sex with his wife regardless of her breast size! (Assuming he was not getting sex somewhere else.)

  • Sex Cult Kool Aid Vomit

    “These girls are signaling fertility while they are still pre-pubescent. How will they keep ratcheting up the attractiveness for the next 20 years?”

    And another curious oddity: women well into their 40′s trying to look “hot” as if they are in their 20′s via makeup, clothing, etc.

    I know plenty of good-looking women in their 40′s who regularly pull attention from men of all ages, but these women are “aging gracefully”. By that I mean they look and are “natural”. Very little to no makeup, age appropriate but pretty clothing, and they exercise and eat right.

    On the otherhand are women who are TRYING to pull attention from men of all ages (but mostly younger) and they are dressing like college girls.

    Makeup does not look good past a certain age. A little lip color or mascara to accentuate your features – fine. But the whole nine yards with foundation and powder and blush and eye shadow and all that? YUCK. Only wrinkle-free faces can pull that off, and if your face is wrinkle-free, why the hell would you want to ruin it with foundation and powder and blush?

    So basically we’ve got a nation full of both pre-pubescent 11 year olds and pre-menopausal 45 year olds trying to look 20 – and even the 20 year olds are not satisfied with the way they look, even though everyone else is trying to look like them!!!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, this is exactly right. There is something rather embarrassing about women in their 40s trying to look 20. Sometimes I’ll see someone from the back and think they’re a young woman – good body, tight jeans, long hair. Then I glimpse the face – haggard. Ugh! I agree that as women age they need to soften their look – less makeup, more conservative clothing. It’s a matter of dignity.

  • Snowdrop111

    I think some of the implant phenomenon has to do with what men are seen with. During a certain period of their lives, certain men do not want to be seen with a woman they will be razzed about in the crowd they hang out.

    Another reason is the teasing that young girls get as they are growing up if they are flat-chested. I am very large-chested and if the truth were known, guys just find something else to criticize. I was told many times, “if only you were blonde.” I feel that during the razzing time in a person’s life, whatever *works* will be used. The most obvious ones are weight, boob size, outgoingness, and affluence.

    Everything will work out when people get about 80 and get less shallow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      80???!!! Too bad none of us will want sex anymore!

  • Steve

    Its a very disheartening trend…cosmetic surgery in my opinion should be left for people who have genuine deficiencies or accidents – to allow them to have a normal life. Personally I think people should learn to love themselves for who they are – corny as that sounds. But its pretty obvious – if they dont address the chasm of low self worth that must exist in order to seek these surgeries – the they will continue to be unhappy after the surgery. IF they do attract more physically attractive partners – they will still have the inner issues undermining them – and most likely they will attract someone who is also insecure and image focussed – and have an unhappy relationship. Some surgery is not going to help you find long term relationship satisfaction – knowledge and love of self will. Its awful to think of a suffering individual with low self esteem perverting their body as a way to try to feel better about themselves. There are so many non-invasive ways that will give life-long happiness as opposed to a few years…
    Of course – many people dont talk about this – its too sticky – they dont want to try a few years of therapy – they want instant results. Our external image focussed society doesnt see the benefit of internal growth – despite the fact that internal personal growth is the really important thing.
    When she was younger Heidi was beautiful. Now she looks like a non-real barbie-unattractive in my opinion. I confess I watched the Hills. What a nice mother she had. I feel sorry for her watching Heidi cast herself into the arms of an ego-maniac and pervert her image. Heidi seemed caring but a weak character with little integrity. And she was searching for fame from a young age? How disappointing. A big concern is that she could be a role model for young women.
    I’ll go on record to say I could never date a girl who had had a breast enlargement. Would I be attracted to one and sleep with them? If I didnt know they were enhanced then perhaps – but if I knew – I dont think so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Steve, this really is the nature of the problem. It’s window dressing when what’s required is soul searching. Interesting that it’s a deal breaker for you. I guess you’re not the guy to ask if they feel any different….

      • Steve

        “I guess you’re not the guy to ask if they feel any different….”
        Not sure what you mean by this – can you clarify?

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Sorry, I just wondered how they feel in your hands! But since you mentioned that you wouldn’t knowingly grab a pair….I figured you might not be the best source of that information, haha. In any case Hambydammit says below that they “don’t feel right,” which I assume means that silicone really doesn’t feel anything like breast tissue.

        • Steve

          haha – no Ive never been anywhere near a pair of fake boobs. Not many in my circles…Its a deal breaker for me because I feel strongly about authenticity.

  • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

    The first fake breast horror show I ever saw was Pamela Anderson. I’m sure all your readers are familiar with her before and after, but just in case, here’s a link:


    I won’t kid you… the girl on the left, I’d hit that. Several times in a row. Then again in the morning. Very hot. The..um… thing… on the right? Scary and not at all sexually attractive. Boner-killer.

    By the way, I’m sure you’ll appreciate that even with all the controversial stuff I write on my blog, the post that gets the most consistent hits is this one: http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/lets-talk-about-breasts/

    I think that one of the truths about sexual attraction that we need to teach young women is that on average, men like average. But we need to make sure we understand what “average means.” It doesn’t mean that on the PUA Ten Scale, we prefer fives… girls we’d say are “average looking.” It means that the features we find most attractive on women are usually near the mathematical average. We prefer 34C or 32A breasts, which represent the statistical middle ground in America right now. We prefer 5’4″ to 5’6″ more than 4’8″ or 6’5″.

    One of the neatest things I’ve read about this was a study where men and women were shown pictures of composite faces. Computers had “morphed” either four, eight, sixteen, or thirty two faces and rendered a composite. Across the board, both men and women rated the eights higher than the fours, the sixteens higher than the eights, and the thirty-twos higher than the sixteens. In other words, the more “average” a person is, the more beautiful they are. Presumably, if we did “full body” versions of the same study, the results would be similar, if for no other reason than we unconsciously love symmetry.

    Oh, and one more thing about fake boobs. They don’t feel right, and that’s a boner-killer.
    .-= Hambydammit´s last blog ..Beat Poem Wisdom =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hamby, good to see you!

      There was a study done on what body type men prefer, and the “average” female torso line drawing won out over a woman centerfold:
      As for the composite faces, that is also interesting, and I’ve seen results where the preferred composite was racially mixed as well. A composite of all the world’s races beats out any single race, including white.
      Oh and thanks for letting us know that silicone breasts feel different. I’ve always wondered about that.
      BTW, I am not surprised that the breast post is your most popular. Do you think it’s women coming to seek reassurance? My most-read post is What Women Really Think About Penis Size. In fact, it gets about 100 hits a day, so there you go.

      • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com Hambydammit

        Wow… a hundred hits a day on an old article. I should be so lucky! Or popular, or whatever. It’s early, but the daily average for my post is 34, which is the highest it’s ever been. Typically, it ends the month with about 25-30 hits per day.

        Unfortunately, Google Analytics doesn’t give me any information on the gender of my visitors, but it does give me keywords that led new visitors to my site. FYI, the most common searches that get people to my post are “Keeley Hazel Breasts,” “34B breasts,” and “Natalie Portman.” Read into that what you will.
        .-= Hambydammit´s last blog ..Beat Poem Wisdom =-.

  • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

    Whoops… I meant 34C or 32B, not 32A. Sorry
    .-= Hambydammit´s last blog ..Beat Poem Wisdom =-.

  • Wookie wookie

    We’re a consumerist nation. In the case of cosmetic surgery, I guess it’s the mindset that one has to accumulate good looking body-parts in order to out-perform others in attention. Replace cosmetic surgery with drugs and you have sports. The US has an obsession with icons and icons are symbols,embodiments of something and thus its most pure/extreme form (the hummer, mcmansions, Olympic channges, etc).
    The trend of Hollywood increasingly refusing to take on women with implants may have something to do with the amount of cleavage being shown on TV. The more boobies one sees onscreen the more one begins to realize what natural ones look like. This may be completely untrue due to the amount of porn available and the number of boob-jobs in that industry but perhaps it has something to do with female viewer demographics? Just trying to postulate a reason.
    Now a question: how does the stigma for wearing a pushup bra compare with that of breast implants? They both do the same thing but all the rage/spotlight seems to be pointed at implants. Are there different social levels of acceptance of the two?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I agree that it’s about trying to be the best, defined as getting the most attention. Our culture just seems so narcissistic. One thing I’ve noticed – British actresses don’t seem to do this. In fact, although I hesitate to admit it, I’ve been watching The Tudors on Showtime, which really is soft porn, and we’ve now seen the breasts of several of Henry’s wives. They’re all small. They’re perky little A cup breasts, and they look quite nice. I do think that this is an American problem to a large degree. It’s noteworthy that Fox Studios is going to Australia and the UK for more natural looking women.

      Re pushup bras, I can’t say I’m a big fan of those either. Their main purpose is to create cleavage and entice men. However, most young women wear them – I’m sure they outsell all other styles by a mile at Victoria’s Secret. In any case, I view them as a way of dressing to make oneself look attractive. That doesn’t even compare with going under the knife, in my view.

  • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com Hambydammit

    Well, wearing a pushup bra is similar to wearing high heeled shoes. It’s taking what you’ve got and making it look better with clothes. Nobody I know of denies that one of the primary functions of clothes is to make us look good.

    One thing about pushup bras to consider: They don’t necessarily conceal flaws. That is, women with perfectly beautiful breasts sometimes wear a pushup for a particular effect.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oops, didn’t see you’d already made this point, Hamby. You’re right about flaws – pushup bras are no longer a bit of extra help for the maturing, i.e. sagging breast or the small breast. Women with amazing young breasts wear them to increase cleavage. Now that I think about it, they do create a look similar to fake boobs.

  • Polyamorous Desi

    I’ve noticed that push up bras actually make my breasts look smaller. They pull them in and help me to fit into tops I wouldn’t if I were to wear a regular bra. So when a shirt or dress is just a tad too tight in the chest area, a push bra will allow me to fit comfortably in it.

  • http://wholesalekarma.wordpress.com/ synthesis

    The thing about fake breasts is that they look good when they’re covered up, but when you see them bare, you realize that they defy gravity in a very unnatural way. They also don’t bounce like they should. I imagine women tend to get them for the sake of other women, but there are guys out there that really don’t care wrt real vs. fake, so long as they’re big.
    .-= synthesis´s last blog ..So I Got a Scam Phone Call… =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So long as they’re big? That’s a joke, right?

      • http://wholesalekarma.wordpress.com/ synthesis

        I personally don’t have a preference, but yeah, I’ve known guys with that attitude.

      • Steve

        I think its important to remember that there are some very simple males around who will have a basic drive. But also more aware or intelligent males who will be more selective…
        Its the same with women.
        Ive been reading and enjoying quite a lot of this blog and Ive considered that this is largely representative of the title – ie hooking up SMART. The very fact that this stuff is being discussed and debated in an intelligent way predisposes a smarter readership – however – there are a lot of not so smart people in this world…so whilst on this blog we may come to intelligent conclusions – those actual conclusions may be more representative for people who are reasonably smart!

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Steve, this is so true! The readers, and certainly the commenters on HUS are really smart. And when I get intellectually lazy or make a careless error in my reasoning, you all let me know right away, which is helpful!

          The readership of blogs in general and HUS in particular is a self-selected group of curious people. They may find me via word of mouth, but a lot of readers come here through a Google search. They may be curious or they may be looking for a way to solve a problem. In general, this means that very few highly promiscuous women are going to hang out here. The number of cosmetic surgeries, tattoos, and sex workers is likely to be underrepresented. As is the number of men in search of such women.

          For the record, I have no problem with men saying they like large breasts. Many of us have a “type” and we can’t really control who we are attracted to. If a man thinks that small breasts are a dealbreaker, fine, he narrows his options. Same with a woman who is hell bent on one particular feature, like 6 pack abs, etc.

  • Dilithium

    One of those slightly annoying sidebar advertisements that I used to see on various web pages offered “Make a cartoon of yourself.” Apparently (I never looked into it, so I’m guessing here) you would give a photo of yourself to some software, which would then generate a simplified, stylized 2-D cartoon image of the picture.

    What comes to mind seeing these pictures of extreme boob jobs is that this is what these women have done for real: they’ve made themselves into cartoons of their real former image. Exaggerated, simplified, stylized cartoons. Now, cartoons can be useful for some purposes; they’re eye-catching and can get attention quickly in a busy world. So you can imagine why attention-seekers of all kinds — models, celebrities, exhibitionists, narcissists, etc. — might go for this kind of make-over.

    But what gets a little quick attention from a lot of people is different from what might get a lot of devoted attention from a single person. A word may be in order here about the finer meanings of “what men want.” Yes, a man may slow down and turn his head to look at a woman with this kind of enhancement. But, he’ll do the same thing for a traffic accident. Both may be attention-getting, but that doesn’t mean that either is a scene he wants to spend a lot of time near.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Dilithium, I’ve always wanted to click on one of those cartoon ads! Actually, grerp has an avatar that is illustrated and quite nice. I wonder where she got it…

      Your point is well taken, though. These women do look that way. I remember the feminists always used to (probably still do) talk about the ridiculously unrealistic measurements of Barbie. If she were life size she’d be a 42-17-28 or something like that. Many of these women remind me of Barbie, and I’m not sure that’s accidental. It’s become a bizarre and warped ideal.

      I’ve written before about women who have written me who get a lot of unsolicited and unwelcome explicitly sexual attention from aggressive men/cads. It seems to me that enlarging your breasts to a F cup is a way of demanding that up front. The problem is, you’ll always know that the additional attention is fleeting, as you say.

      • Dilithim

        I think a good short statement would be: getting attention is not the same thing as being attractive. The difference is worth meditating on.

  • 3DShooter

    Speaking for myself, boob jobs command immediate attraction and I think that is what they are intended to do. But it really is superficial and they feel a bit weird too. Nothing like getting a firm grasp on them only to feel that gelatinous sack inside (for an older dude like myself kind of a bizarre experience the first few times). But the superficial is like advertising – getting the customer in the door, so to speak.

    As for married women getting boob jobs – that is usually a red flag to most hubbies, or should be, she’s looking for ‘greener pastures’.

    For an interesting perspective on what men really find attractive your readers might want to check out some of the comments on a couple recent the-spearhead posts. It might surprise them . . .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com susanawalsh

      Speaking of false advertising, I have always wondered about women who wear heavily padded bras. Many natural A cups wear bras padded to C. Imagine the first time your beloved is going to see you naked – it’s got to be pure anxiety for the woman, and very odd for the man, who might feel duped. Then again, I guess all cosmetics are clothing are meant to “sell.” It’s really a question of where enhancement ends and camouflage begins.

      • Il Capo

        Heh, this has actually happened to me. It was mildly disappointing, but not a big deal.

        • Polyamorous Desi

          Same here. Guys who bragged about their size and technique, then when the package is opened, the cookie crumbles. Disappointing for sure, but I lived through it.

  • vera44

    All of the hate against plastic surgery (not just fake boobs, which I think look ridiculous, but whatever) still rings of snobbery to me. It’s just “natural beauty” snobbery instead of “big boobs” snobbery. I know Susan only wrote the article about boobs, but the NYTimes article covers facial implants, botox, injectibles, and changes to other parts of the body.

    What are the ugly women supposed to do with this new “natural beauty” standard then? Die? I mean, they’re damned if they don’t get surgery because they’re unattractive but damned if they do because it’s trying too hard. I mean, men can improve their initial attractiveness to women by earning more money, learning game, or getting a degree. But women cannot do that since men are initially attracted to women because they’re pretty and young. No one can stop the aging process, but now women are supposed to be satisfied with just dealing with being dealt a crappy appearance and not being able to do a damn thing about it? If I were ugly, I would get plastic surgery in a heartbeat. It’s just the smart thing to do.

    The other thing that irks me about this whole deal is Hollywood is now setting the standard for natural beauty. I would normally think this is a good thing, but it’s ridiculously hypocritical. THEY CREATED a world where Pamela Anderson & Jenna Jameson were voted in the top 10 most beautiful women list. They had the casting agents tell actresses to play the mothers of actors only 5 years younger than them (and thus caused every woman to worry about getting a facelift as soon as crows feet appeared). They phased women out of leading lady roles once wrinkles started to appear (and thus made women inject their faces with fake fillers & botox). And now they’ve seen the overly-plastic wreckage of what these standards demand, they abandon their victims and claim a new ideal. Fuck them. What about looking at acting ability instead of whether people are real or fake? Jesus.

    Also, just to play devil’s advocate against that NY Times article about fake-looking people, what about women who have had good plastic surgery? Demi Moore & Jennifer Aniston have had multiple things done to their faces, as well as Angelina Jolie (nose job, speculation on cheeks / jaw) & Megan Fox (nose job, lip enhancement, speculation on cheeks). No one talks about it because they looked so much better afterward. They all still get work even though they’ve had surgery. So their moral of the story is get plastic surgery but have it look good? It makes me so angry.

    • Polyamorous Desi

      Meryl Streep is still a leading lady and she is what – close to 60? Julia Roberts has a romantic-comedy-adventure film, EAT, PRAY, LOVE, debuting and she is in her 40s. Angelina is close to 40 (despite what she claims, you can see it in her face) and she is still a hot, much sought-after actress. Jennifer Aniston – close to 40, still a leading lady. The list goes on.

      • vera44

        You are only proving my point. ALL of the actresses you listed have had well-done plastic surgery (save Meryl Streep, who literally gets all the roles for women over 50 because she is considered by most to be one of the top 3 actresses who ever lived). And that’s why all of those women are still working. The key is that it was well done so people can’t tell. So there’s a double message: get surgery to stay young but be sure it’s good so you don’t end up frozen on HD. But not every struggling actress can afford the cost of the surgeons the A-list goes to.

        And since when is 34 “almost 40″? Angelina Jolie is in her early thirties, but again, you thinking she’s 40 and that you can see her age in her face proves my point. You can see the obsession with youth in the reality shows that are so popular, shows like 90210 and Gossip Girl. I mean, even in House MD, Olivia Wilde plays a doctor. She was 23 when they started filming — there’s no way she would have finished medical school and residency and specialization at that age. Hollywood wants authenticity they say? Bullshit. They want youth and they want pretty.

        • Polyamorous Desi

          What “work” has Julia Roberts had done? I also doubt that Jolie has had surgery, I’ve seen the photos – same before as after – her nose is not any straighter than it ever was. I think most actors, both male and female, lie a little about their age. Jolie looks late 30s if you ask me. Her face has that “edge” that people don’t start to get until late 30s. Most of the current Rom-Coms are about characters in their 30s as opposed to 20s anyway and I think that reflects our culture – whereas a few decades ago everyone was married with kids by 30ish, now they don’t find “the one” and “settle down” until their mid to late 30s. Jennifer Lopez’s latest movie case in point.

        • vera44

          Are you serious? There is no way that anyone can hide anything about themselves nowadays, where & when they were born included. She’s such a megastar that any lies would have been discovered by now. Sorry it’s not convenient to your point, but Angelina Jolie is 34 and you think she looks old & haggard. Good thing she had all that work done so you wouldn’t think she was 50 or something.

          Julia Roberts (nose job, which plastic surgeons have confirmed): http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/2008/12/26/julia-roberts-nose-is-melting-away/
          And I disagree with the opinion of the website — I think she looks better in the after

          Angelina Jolie (DEFINITELY a nose job at the very least, prob a brow lift as well):
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2ZOxvbt978 (has all the comparisons in one place)

        • vera44

          “Most of the current Rom-Coms are about characters in their 30s as opposed to 20s anyway and I think that reflects our culture – whereas a few decades ago everyone was married with kids by 30ish, now they don’t find “the one” and “settle down” until their mid to late 30s. Jennifer Lopez’s latest movie case in point.”

          Yes, and as long as the actresses look like they’re in their 20s, they can play in a movie about late 30 year olds. Jennifer Lopez is another celeb that’s had a lot of surgery & has admitted to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Vera, I think the problem is that nearly all plastic surgery looks bad. Face lifts are almost always detectable. Breast implants don’t look natural. Tummy tucks leave large scars. I’ve known many women who have had Botox, and to be honest, in every case I never would have noticed a difference. They do, because they have heightened awareness of that little spot between their eyebrows, but few other people would ever notice a difference. Furthermore, recent research shows that the movement of facial muscles signals emotion to the brain. In other words, your face breaks into a smile, and that tells your brain that you are happy. In preventing muscle movement, Botox is preventing emotion. That’s pretty scary. All in all, I can’t think of a single good thing about plastic surgery.

      You wonder what ugly women should do, but honestly? How often do you see a woman, or man for that matter, who is so ugly that you immediately think they should get plastic surgery? And what would that surgery be, exactly? Plastic surgery is not a cure for ugliness. It can make small changes on the margin, and in my view those changes often introduce a different kind of ugliness.

      I will say that there are surgeries that can truly improve lives. Cleft palate plastic surgery, reconstructive breast surgery, rhinoplasty. I don’t have a problem with any of these. I just think we’ve gone a little crazy in our culture when we want bee-stung lips and eyes pulled so tight that we look permanently startled. Oddly, I find that most procedures meant to make us look younger just make us look the same age, but stranger.

      I won’t disagree about the hypocrisy of Hollywood, but I will debate some of your claims about the women you cite. In my opinion, Jolie and Demi Moore are downright mannish. Their faces are extremely androgynous. Aniston has had a nose job, which certainly helped her looks – I believe she had a large nose with a bump in her youth.

      I guess my question is this – why does Megan Fox look better afterwards? Did she not look pretty damned good before? Was her goal to go from a 9 to a 10? I find that kind of thinking rather obscene. Personally, I like the idiosyncrasies of real faces. Crooked British teeth. An interesting nose.

      In any case, the times they are a changin’, and movie studios won’t cast fake boobs in a Jane Austen flick. Actresses probably should think twice about cosmetic surgery, and the rest of us? Aside from the exceptions I mentioned, I don’t think it represents real improvement.

      • vera44

        I don’t personally see ugly people, but that’s because I’ve only lived in what are considered some of the most attractive places in the US. The majority of America is considered ugly by most other countries — I have friends that moved to NYC from places like Alabama or Wisconsin & they say the difference in looks is ridiculous. I just would hate to be stuck with what I had knowing there was no way to improve it if I needed to because of what some Hollywood exec decided.

        I mean, whether you like Angelina or Demi’s looks before or after their surgery, my point is that they looked better afterward.

        Megan Fox looked good before, but in a more “cute mall girl” kind of way. Her look now is what made her famous & what makes men in every country drool. Going from an 8 to a 10 is what Hollywood rewarded, so of course more actesses are going to follow in her footsteps because without the surgery, she’d be just another actress. Her before & after: http://www.judiciaryreport.com/images/megan-fox-10-13-09.jpg

        • Polyamorous Desi

          I don’t find Fox attractive. She looks like a rough bartender. That being said, I don’t see a difference between her before or after pic you linked to. Only that in the first pick she looks young with a more “baby fat” teenage sort of face. The other pick she looks aged, but the same. I also don’t see any difference in Angelina Jolie’s face now or from when she was a teen – except for the obvious aging. Her features do not look worked on.

          ” I have friends that moved to NYC from places like Alabama or Wisconsin & they say the difference in looks is ridiculous.”

          Really??? Who looks better? Manhattanites or Alabama/Wisconsinites?

          “The majority of America is considered ugly by most other countries”

          It’s true that MEN in the Caribbean, Southern Europe, the Mediterrenean, and the Middle East are far more handsome than your typical American guy.

          Don’t get me started on my stories of globe-trotting. All I got to say is: Ladies, hope a damn airplane already! Hubba hubba!

        • vera44

          Manhattanites look better, by far (according to them).

          “It’s true that MEN in the Caribbean, Southern Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East are far more handsome than your typical American guy.”
          Sorry, have you been to Colombia? Or Eastern Europe? There’s a reason guys wax poetic on the girls there. The girls are objectively more attractive.

        • Polyamorous Desi

          As a woman I’m not really concerned AT ALL, where the better looking women are. I’m a heterosexual and concerned with hot men.

        • vera44

          What I was trying to say that didn’t quite come across correctly was that the level of attractiveness of the women in the attractive countries you’re probably talking about is such that most American women couldn’t get a guy that lives there. Too spoiled. I dated a Lithuanian here in NYC & he was saying that most of the guys from his country WILL NOT date an American for a variety of reasons, but mostly because in general, they’re uglier. Sorry.

        • vera44

          Also, you’re on crack if you can’t see the difference between the two photos. Her nose has clearly changed, as well as the size of her lips. Other people speculate about whether she’s had work done to her cheeks / jaw (she now has the angelina jolie look)

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Wow, I can’t believe those before and after pics – it’s hard to believe they’re the same person! I’ll concede that point – no question that Megan Fox has benefited in career terms from her surgery.

          In any case, I really did write the post specifically about breasts, because I don’t think breast implants cure ugliness or add to a woman’s beauty. In fact, they’re more likely to make a woman look worse.

        • vera44

          I totally agree implants often make women look worse with their clothes off depending on your aesthetic, and I totally agree many people look worse with other types of surgery, it’s hard to find people that really look good in their “afters.” But what I have a problem with is the hypocrisy in Hollywood and their snobbishness for “realness” when “fakeness” was all the rage just a few years ago. I wouldn’t want someone judging me lacking just because I tried to adhere to a changing beauty standard. Let’s face it, all women do this (trendy clothing, makeup, etc), these women just took it one step further.

        • vera44

          I kind of think people are against plastic surgery for the same reason people are against men learning game: it feels like (and kind of is) cheating. Women are pretending they have better genetics than they do, and men are pretending they are better providers (through social proof) than they are. The two are the same to me.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          This is a good insight – I agree. It’s all about marketing.

        • Mani

          Megan Fox is a perfect example of how plastic surgery can change someone ENTIRELY. Speaking quite honestly, I think she looks smokin’ hot now – she really did go from pretty girl to bombshell. It’s because of the subtle changes she did – slight nose job, lips plumped, getting her eyebrows reshaped and changing her makeup.

          I feel iffy when people say “she didn’t need all that surgery, she was so cute!” In Hollywood, sometimes cute doesn’t cut it. What I think people really mean is – she looked more “normal”, like a girl you see on the street, as opposed to glamorous movie star. In that industry, it does matter how you look, and she wouldn’t be half as famous as she is today if she hadn’t had all that work done. People can say what they want, but the surgery helped jump start her career. It just kind of sucks how she gets so much hate for it.
          .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

        • Mani

          Another picture of Megan Fox’s surgery. She’s definitely had work done:

          .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

  • vera44

    Also, am I the only one that thinks Heidi Montag’s face (her breasts are ridiculous) does look better now than before? I’m not talking about letting her obvious body dysmorphic disorder & all the pain & expense color your opinion. I’m talking about the results. If you were looking at two different girls knowing nothing about them, which one is objectively more facially beautiful?

    Some sets of before/afters to help you decide:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The photos you provided only serve to convince me further that Heidi Montag’s face after her surgery is hideous. Seriously. I stand by my original description: tranny pole dancer. Women are altering themselves to look manly, no doubt about it. Heidi Montag destroyed her natural femininity with these surgeries. It’s that high-testosterone, Alpha male jaw, most likely.

  • vera44

    Actually, I just looked at her face more closely in other photos in the strong light of day, and everyone is right, she does look crazy. Those photos I picked must have been just really good.

    Here’s her face & bikini body now:

    They also have a link to what she looked like before in a bikini. I think she looks so much better before, and everyone agrees she looks like a freak now. However, if you look at the comments below her “before” bikini photo when no one knew she would go crazy & try to look like Barbie, everyone said she looked fat & that she was ugly. So there’s a lot of mixed messages going on here — no wonder she felt the pressure to have surgery. So it seems like she was damned if she did and damned if she didn’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think anyone who chooses to make a career out of displaying their body is going to get lots of haters and criticism no matter what. She’s posing to look sexy in both sets of photos, so it’s fair game for anyone to say what they think. Mostly I find it sad – she was an extremely attractive young woman who might have done any number of things with her life. Why anyone would choose to spend it the way she has is a puzzle to me.

  • Mani

    I personally think that fake breasts, when done wrong, look horrible. Heidi Montag is a classic example of that. I am still unsure of my thoughts on plastic surgery in general, though, as I have considered getting some myself in the past.

    With young girls nowaday, by far, society tells them that the most important thing about them when it comes to attracting a mate is how they look. It’s definitely unfortunate, but VERY prevalent in our culture. I have found myself bitten time and time again by this bug. It caused me to have VERY low self esteem when I was younger as well. It’s a competitive dating world out there. And yes, guys (at least my age, I can’t speak for older men) will ALWAYS choose the girl who is gorgeous over the plain jane, and if they both have equally intriguing personalities it’s a jackpot. It’s no fair, but that’s the way it works. It doesn’t feel good to be overlooked and ignored, which is how I’ve been for most of my life.

    I guess the logical answer is to find the men who aren’t just in it for looks…but being realistic, men are visual creatures, and will not date someone they are not attracted to, at least a little bit. Some women take plastic surgery too far. I don’t know if a little bit is a bad thing though, after all it is your body, do what you will with it.
    .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

    • Polyamorous Desi

      Mani you are so right about this. And as I’ve been surfing men’s blogs I see that men are giving out mixed messages. On one hand they complain about the lack of “quality women” out there – women with integrity and character, and on the other hand they say “we don’t care about anything else but your looks. if you are not good looking we don’t want you. your brains don’t matter, only beauty”

      Well, which is it? If you tell people that only their looks matter, some willl focus on that to the exclusion of all else. If they are busy building an arsenal of beauty products and clothing, how much time goes into “character building”???

      Really you can’t always have it both ways. A compromise on SOMETHING has to be made somewhere.

      If you tell people all that matters is external stuff, then you can’t complain when they don’t have any internal stuff like character to offer you.

      Men are fickle.

      • Mani

        I often feel the same way, Desi. Especially younger guys – for the vast majority of them all they care about is looks. At least, that’s the first step in the door before they can develop anything else potentially substantial! First I have to like the way she looks, THEN I want to get to know her. I have been guilty before of placing WAY too much emphasis on my looks, and not enough on developing my personality. I am still guilty of it sometimes.

        I think Susan is right in the sense that there is a bell curve in terms of attractiveness, but the unfair part is it’s not realistic for WOMEN to try to jump way above the bell curve. Men can have other things going for them – money, humor, etc. that’s why it’s not uncommon to see a not so good looking man dating a super model. As women, though, let’s face it – if we’re not beautiful, MOST of the time we can kiss away chances of dating a man who is very good looking because why would he go for us when he can date someone equally as or more attractive than him?

        I would consider myself an average looking female too. I am definitely not super model quality, but I don’t get a second look when I dress down. Ah, the magic of makeup when I take the time to do it though – I can transform into a totally different person…I’d say I go from about a 5 without makeup to a 7 with makeup and hair :P It’s so hard sometimes, because I wish I were an 8 or a 9. The only way I can become that, though, is if I get a nose job. This sounds bad, because I know deep down it’s wrong to feel this way, yet I can’t help it given the circumstances.

    • Mani

      The procedure I want done is a nose job – but it’ll be a while til I get 18K for it :( (the doctor I want to see is VERY expensive, but supposed to be the best) I don’t think I would ever get my boobs done, I just feel like why even bother if there’s so much technology to get the same effect anyway? That Victoria’s Secret Miraculous bra is one (lovely) example – I go from a B to a small C in that.
      .-= Mani´s last blog .. =-.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There is a wide spectrum of attractiveness according to recognized standards of beauty in the population. A bell curve, just like everything else. If we are realistic about where we are in that curve, then we can find a mate of similar attractiveness. What we cannot do is jump way above the mean if we are average in physical attractiveness.

      Some plastic surgery can bump you up a bit. Nose jobs are probably the best examples of this. Some can make you feel better about yourself when you have a feature that makes you feel terrible or abnormal, and that confidence boost can help. Breast reduction surgery is an example of this.

      For the most part, though, the kind of procedures Vera was talking about are fine tuning – chiseling done on the face of women already renowned for their beauty. Most women are probably better off doing their best with their natural features and cultivating their personality and character. Virtually all women can find love this way if they are realistic.

      • Polyamorous Desi

        “If we are realistic about where we are in that curve, then we can find a mate of similar attractiveness. What we cannot do is jump way above the mean if we are average in physical attractiveness. ”

        I’m an average looking female. The type that if she just goes out in her casual sweats, won’t get a second look. However, I have dated HB10s, men who are objectively condsidered “super hot” by both women AND gay men. Not only were these men much hotter than me in looks, they were younger than me as well. And not just in it for the sex, because I didn’t have sex with them. We dated – old fashioned style, complete with flowers and poems. These men were not American born of course – they came from cultures where chivalry and romance are considered worthy goals in life.

        Go East young lass, go East!!!!!!!!!!!

        • vera44

          I see that you’ve totally done what I said you couldn’t do in the post I just wrote (attractive men dating average women). I’m wondering if you’ve done it for men who had lots of money, or men who were alpha male (other types of male attractiveness other than just looks).

          Regardless, My question is, how did you do this? I always thought “dating above your league” was impossible for women. I would honestly REALLY like to know.

        • Polyamorous Desi

          This was with men who’s cultures regarded polite behaviour, courting and chivalry as worthy goals and women as “mysteries”. In other words, these men love women – the concept of women. Over here in the US men don’t really LIKE women – they see them as enemies to be conquered. Just watch Mystery’s videos. He very clearly lays it out as enemy territory. That’s why only the “hottest” women are seen as worthy targets. These are men who do not love women as a whole or the concept of “womanhood”. They are ogres and totally uncultured. I advise EVERY American woman to travel. Once you go – ANYTHING – you’ll never go typical American male again.

        • vera44

          That’s so interesting. You’re really right about Mystery’s game thing & both sexes viewing each other as enemies — Susan’s written about the pickup artist culture & how it goes hand in hand with misogyny a lot of times. I’ve experienced it myself.

          What do you think makes men here act differently from men who are from other cultures? And which cultures are the ones you’re speaking of (that value chivalry etc)?

      • Mani

        “If we are realistic about where we are in that curve, then we can find a mate of similar attractiveness. What we cannot do is jump way above the mean if we are average in physical attractiveness.”

        This confuses me a bit, Susan. I often feel like my view of myself is very distorted. I hate to sound superficial here, but I would LIKE to think I’m not a very unattractive person. Yet, the only guys I seem to attract are guys who I feel are not of the same attractiveness. So thus, it makes me wonder – if this is true, AM I attractive then? Because if so, so all evidence has been to the contrary. I am not asking to date a hot male super model…just someone I can find decently attractive, yet I have not really found that.

        “Virtually all women can find love this way if they are realistic.”

        I really want to believe you…I guess it is just difficult to be realistic sometimes. When they’re young, people want to play up their looks, plain and simple. I am no exception. It’s easy to get carried away though, I have to remind myself time and time again that once the looks fade, you have to be left with something else to get him to stick around…a personality.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Well, Mani, I’ve seen your photo, and I think you are an attractive young woman. Keep in mind that you’re talking about the feedback you are getting from guys who are 20 or 21. As you’ve seen, most of them are not looking at a girl wondering if she is relationship material. So a girl who has a reputation for hooking up is going to get a lot more male attention in these early years. In five years, the woman who was selective about sexual partners is going to be more appreciated. I know that five years is a long time to wait – though I think newly graduated women can focus on guys 25 or so.

          So what can you do now? Nothing new here, just the same old advice:

          1. Focus on friendships, where attraction may develop over time.
          2. Stay away from players, though acting friendly and open is fine. Soon enough they’ll consider you a prude and ignore you.
          3. Develop your best self – take care of yourself, study hard, make the most of your college experience.
          4. When you do go out, do so looking your best. If you walk into a room feeling great about being put together, etc. you will exude a charisma that is attractive in and of itself. Sometimes women who believe they are beautiful convey that and get agreement even if it’s untrue. You are your own best sales rep, so strut your stuff.
          5. Look for guys who are not hooking up. There are many of them on campus. I know you’ve done some of this already, which is commendable. Don’t give up – this is still a good strategy.

        • Mani

          Aw, thank you :) I am going to save this comment. Thanks for the great advice, I feel like you have told me this before, I just keep making the same mistakes!

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Ah well, don’t we all…:-/

  • demi

    oh my god! sum people get it done propa big!:)