Those of you who have written to me personally for advice know that it can sometimes take me a week or two to respond. 99% of the time that’s a reflection of the volume of emails and my own time constraints. I almost always know exactly how to respond, though – take it or leave it, my advice is intuitive and there’s a lot of it! The following email is one I’ve been sitting on, though. It’s a question that has both strategic and moral implications. Strategy is easy, morality a lot more complicated. Take a look, and let me know what you think.
Dear Susan,
I found your blog after I got played hard sophomore year, when I learned that my “boyfriend” had been cheating on me for months with a girl from another school. It was devastating, and I was kind of an emotional wreck for a while. I made a resolution that I’ve kept since: Don’t help players play or cheaters cheat. It means I have a lot less boy drama, which is good, but also less attention from boys, which is kind of lonely.
Here’s my problem. This spring I had three different guys showing interest in me, and to be honest, every one of them is attractive, at least physically, and they appear to be good guys on the surface. But I suspect that all of them are being shady – I don’t know if I’m paranoid now or if they are trying to play me! I don’t want to rule someone out who may be a good catch, but I don’t want to get played again. Please tell me what you think about these guys:
1. Was acting interested and attentive for a couple of months this spring, even getting a little possessive, saying stuff like “Please don’t look too pretty tonight when you go out with your friends,” etc. He doesn’t go to my school, so this was all via text and online chatting. Then I saw his gf from home post on his wall that she was so happy he’d be home soon. When I got home from school he suggested going out for drinks or dinner. When I called him out he said, “I’m allowed to have friends.” I tried hard to trap him, but he kept insisting his intentions were 100% innocent. I suggested he go back and look at his texts over the last couple of months. Either way that was a big waste of time.
2. Worked together during the summers. He’s always represented himself as being single, but there is clearly some girl on Facebook that calls him “Mine!” and stuff like that. It’s clear from her photos they’ve known each other for years – and clearly have a history going back to dating in college, maybe? He keeps suggesting that we “go out on the town.” He’s older and very attractive, and has periodically tried to meet up since I met him three years ago, but I never accept. I want to, though!
3. Met him at a party and we really hit it off, talking and laughing all night. At the end of the night, he said, “Listen, I’ve got to go call my girlfriend, but give me your number.” WTF? I said, “You have a girlfriend? No way I’m giving you my number.” He just shrugged and said OK but since then he’s been sending me Facebook messages and trying to coordinate evening plans. I don’t know if he’s just looking to be friends, or being the biggest douche ever.
Seriously, I don’t know what to think! It’s easy to assume all of these guys are cads, as you would say, haha, but I feel like I turn away everyone! It’s summer, and I really would like to hang out with some boys. I’m not looking for anything serious – it’s back to school in three months. I’m wondering if you think any of these guys could be legit, how I can figure it out, and whether it’s wrong to hang out platonically with a guy who has a gf. Asking them straight out at the beginning doesn’t work – they either lie or make me feel like a paranoid psycho.
Please help! Am I overreacting?
Valerie
Dear Valerie,
Wow, this could make a great rom com screenplay, and there would definitely be true love for you at the end, but not with any of these three guys. First of all, let me say that you are not overreacting. Every one of these examples includes one or more red flags, so it’s sensible to be cautious, especially in light of your past experience and your wise and admirable resolution. However, your email raises quite a few different questions, and as with so many things in life, there are few black and white answers. Mostly we deal in shades of gray. Let’s get to it.
What you’re describing here is not wanting to get caught up in any kind of deceit. You don’t want to deceive yourself, other girls, or these guys for that matter. Nor do you want to be the instrument of someone else’s deceit, either to play you or cheat in a relationship. Your question is a strategic one:
How can I increase my chances of having a fun summer by not turning away every guy who expresses interest?
At the same time, you’re obviously well aware of the moral implications.
The Morality of Double Dipping:
The Accomplice
It’s not surprising that when we talk of cheating, we have little respect for the deceiver. However, the role of the accomplice is often described in unflattering terms as well:
- poaching
- stealing
- homewrecker
- slut
Fellow blogger grerp writes The Lost Art of Self-Preservation, and recently advised women not to poach other women’s men:
People who are in relationships are in relationships. They are important to other people. Your interference in that relationship is inappropriate and unethical….Just remember this: a man who can be poached can be poached again. Will you be able to sleep easy at night when he is late coming home to you? Think about it.
I fully agree with this. However, you’re describing something quite different – you are not the one pursuing, nor do you have any first-hand information regarding any potential relationships. You are not an accomplice.
The New Significant Other
Relationships end. In fact, every relationship you have before you meet your life partner will end either mutually, or because one of you has decided to call it quits. It’s natural, and there’s nothing unethical about ending a relationship. I don’t accept that someone who does the breaking up is wrong because they have caused pain. They may have been unethical, but there’s no sin in determining that a relationship isn’t working out. (I am not talking about marriage here, which is a much more complicated relationship.)
The truth is that many relationships end when one person meets someone else. Meeting someone new and feeling strongly attracted can be a signal that your current relationship is no longer satisfying. Or perhaps you make a connection with someone that is unlike anything you’ve felt before. Both of my college boyfriends broke up with other girls to date me. I wasn’t a favorite of either of those girls, but the truth is I played no direct role. There was zero overlap. I didn’t date either guy until he was officially back on the market.
This is the key ethical consideration, in my view. If someone who is in a relationship finds you attractive enough to pursue, you should indicate that he can call you when he is single. I give you credit for balking at the request for your number when you thought someone was openly looking to cheat. By the way, if you have to cajole someone to break up in order to date you, they are not a good relationship bet, because they’ve already indicated they would have cheated if you’d been game. As grerp points out, the next woman may have no hesitation in going after your guy, overlap be damned.
The strategic piece is easier in the sense that you don’t have to worry about screwing anyone over, but it’s tricky to know exactly what’s going on, as you’ve discovered.
Holding Your Own With Players and Cheats, or Are They?
As always, it’s important to keep an eye out for red flags.
- Is the person upfront from the beginning about their relationship status?
- Does information on Facebook or elsewhere contradict what they’ve been saying, or even the tone of their communication with you?
- Have they actually made a move or suggested hanging out alone?
Clearly, you’ve seen a mix of behaviors from these three men, but not all sins are equal.
Bachelor #1
He was clearly up to no good, and let’s face it, you knew that when you wrote to me. As far as I’m concerned, cheating is anything he wouldn’t want his girlfriend to know about. You suggest that his texts clearly expressed his interest. He didn’t admit to having a girlfriend until you challenged him. Bad news all around. As a general rule, if a guy is doing anything with you that you wouldn’t want your bf doing with someone else, he’s being sketchy. Betrayal can happen a long time before pants come off. It doesn’t matter what he protested; the two of you know exactly what he was after.
Bachelor #2
There are a couple of red flags here, but I would say they’re of the “be on guard” variety, rather than warranting immediate disqualification. It’s possible that the ex is batshit crazy and tagging his pics, etc. with ridiculous captions. On the other hand, they’re clearly in touch in some way, and that’s really not a good sign. Even if they’re not officially together, do you really want to take up with someone who has a back burner thing of several years duration going on? Of course, if he’s serious about her and trying to “go out on the town” with you, he’s a dog. It’s not clear to me that this guy is bad news – maybe the ex is. For the record, you really can ask him if he’s dating someone when he suggests a plan. You could just say, “Oh, wow, I’d love to, but I thought you had a girlfriend.” If he lies or makes you feel like a psycho, you’ve got your answer. A guy with nothing to hide will be eager to reassure you that he is completely above board.
Bachelor #3
I actually find this example the most interesting and also the toughest to answer. It’s very hard to know what’s going on here. Perhaps he was signaling he is in an open relationship, which is honest at least. He may know that having a girlfriend is likely to make him more attractive in your eyes, and that telling this to girls up front works well for him as a ploy, as they put their best effort into displacing her. On the other hand, you rejected this approach, and he is still pursuing.
It is also possible that he is just looking to be friends – or generally increase his social network. If he hasn’t suggested anything personal or sexual between the two of you, it’s possible. He might have clarified that when you refused to give him your number, but maybe he felt awkward at the time. The truth is, a gregarious and fun guy who has a girlfriend but is looking to share group social plans can be a real find – he’s bound to have single friends, and it sounds like your own social scene could use a boost this summer. In any case, meeting friends of friends is the third most common way that spouses find each other. It’s always a good idea to expand your social network.
I would keep an open mind about this one. See how he proceeds, and treat him like a friend. No flirting. You should know quite soon what his real intentions are.
- If he makes a move, call him out, and remind him that you wanted no part of giving him your number because he had a girlfriend.
- If he clarifies that their relationship is open, say thank you very much, but I’m closed.
- If he wants to lose the girlfriend and pursue you, he should get in touch when he is officially single.
- If he just wants to be friends, respond accordingly, and don’t make unfounded accusations.
In other words, respond to actions, not suspicions, and you should be OK. You’ll have to keep your eyes wide open, and not tolerate any shenanigans. I have a feeling you’re going to have a drama-filled summer. I know you’re not looking for that, and I suspect none of these guys is a keeper. Still, if you’re looking for some summer fun, and you keep your head on straight, you may find yourself surprised in a good way. Either way, you’ll never know until you dip your toe in the water.
Degree of difficulty: 9.0
Not for the faint of heart.
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{ 54 comments… read them below or add one }
Every man I’ve ever suspected of cheating on me (or, more accurately in some cases, cheating on someone else with me) was. Simply put, women can sniff this out, if they care to.
Red Flag 1: You’re generally a trusting person, but you find yourself not trusting him. Stop doubting yourself. Maybe you are acting a bit crazy around him…but maybe there’s a reason an otherwise sane woman begins acting insane.
Red Flag 2: Spotty communication habits. Most people are reliable about how they respond to their phones. I mean, maybe he does work in some secret, underground facility without cell reception. But a guy who gets twitchy about his phone with you, responding to every text almost instantly, and then makes up multiple excuses for why he didn’t respond to your messages?
Red Flag 3: He’s suspicious of you (assuming you aren’t actually two-timing him too.)
Red Flag 4: He restricts your access to his home/workplace/school/auto. He gets nervous when you’re there and wants to usher you out. Or worse, he never allows you there at all.
Red Flag 5: He calls you paranoid and bristles at any kind of “checking up” or questioning.
Red Flag 6: You haven’t met any of his friends.
Red Flag 7: You don’t have access to his “prime time”. If you never see him on a weekend night, not only is he playing around, but you aren’t even on the “A Team”.
Red Flag 8: He refuses to define your relationship and it’s been months.
Red Flag 9: He locks his phone, never leaves it around, would freak if you touched it. Unless he works for the CIA…he’s hiding something. Ditto for his computer.
Red Flag 10: He throws out the toothbrush/tampons/lip gloss/earrings you tucked into his bathroom drawer/left in his car/on his nightstand. If you’re in a LTR, he should be OK with having some evidence of you at his place.
One red flag? Everybody has at least one or two. But when they start piling up, there is something more than just you being paranoid.
I too find number 3 the most interesting – as he didn’t hide that he had a girlfriend. Given that I’m the type of girl who has a lot of male friends, this is sort of a normal happening with me where it’s immediately stated that we’d be hanging out in a group. But even then I’ve had some good male friends where we hang out just the two of us and it’s not awkward if one of us is in a relationship because we both know. Granted in most cases, usually we’re friends prior to one of us becoming involved with someone. One of my closest male friends in first year university was really nervous when he did get a girlfriend that spring because he really wanted me to like her. It worked out well because she and I became really great friends too.
I’ve also had some guys who I become friends with who then say “I think you’d get along great with my girlfriend” and that ends up happening too.
And I definitely agree with the responding to actions, not suspicions. I mean with the second guy if it is an ex who he is also friends with quite possibly they were friends before they dated, tried dating and it didn’t work and went back to being friends, but are still really close. Hard to say and you don’t know unless you ask/see them interact with each other.
Great inventory of warning signs here! I especially like:
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1. Women’s intuition is real, so trust it.
3. Classic projection.
4. Nervous behavior, eyes darting rapidly back and forth? Very shady.
10. If a guy is into you, he should be DELIGHTED to have evidence of you at his place. I’ve heard of guys who pretend they don’t know where those undies went, just so they can hang on to them.
Exactly! I think guys 2 and 3 should not be written off, at least as friends. One thing I was thinking about 2 – here Valerie is, able to find tagged pics of him on Facebook, and making reasonable assumptions about his history and contact with this other woman. Yet the truth is that she may be misunderstanding all of it. We often think of Facebook as a way that people get caught cheating, but it’s also possible to be suspected of cheating when you’re not, obviously, and in this case, of trying to hide something when you’re not. Guy 2 may have no inkling that women are suspicious of his motives because the ex is his BFF, or maybe even just overbearing. They went to college together, perhaps they still hang out in the same college group. Here he has been asking Valerie to hang out for three years, and she’s always dodged him, even though she’s really attracted. That’s a ridiculous waste if he isn’t doing anything wrong!
Exactly – and often girls do get possessive of guys and will tag photos on facebook and what not but really there isn’t anything going on and the guy is clueless as to how something like that can be perceived. I mean I have a lot of pictures of me with my guy friends and we’re hugging or whatever and if we’re dressed up for something it really can look like we’re on a date/dating when in reality I’ve never dated any of them.
I’m guilty of it too where I’ll stalkerbook someone and try and read into the pictures of them and what not. It just leads to giving myself a headache as I agonize over whether or not he’s single.
And I’m also one of those people who truly believes you can be just friends with the opposite sex. I’ve come to the realization that very rarely is it truly completely platonic, but there’s always that sort of understanding that it is friendship and all in good fun if there is minimal flirty banter. With some people I should add. Sometimes it gets confusing as hell, but overall it’s not bad.
But yeah, don’t assume -ask.
I’d agree with writing 1 off completely. However, there are definitely shades of grey with 2and 3. I know a decent number of cads, but I didn’t really get too much of a player vibe from their descriptions.
notes
2. -He has an old female friend. A lot of guys I know have one. Hell, I am one to some. and just because she says “mine!” on his facebook, doesn’t mean anything. Could be an inside joke. i’d say give him a try as far as hanging out. Just don’t reveal that you have been facebook creeping.
One other thing about creeping on his facebook. There’s pictures of them together. Ok. But what are they doing? Are they just hanging out, having fun? or doing cudddling, couple type things. I wouldn’t bring this girl up to him directly, but I would see what influence she has in his life. If you post on his wall with something flirty, and she posts something directly after thats possessive, red flag. If he introduces you to her and her date, or outright calls her ‘my little sister,” eh, don’t worry too much, esp. if you’re not looking for something serious.
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ehh…maybe a bit of overreaction? But, context matters. If he was being really flirty and then dropped the gf word, RED FLAG. If he was just being friendly, he could have said it on purpose, so she wouldn’t hit on him, but still, obviously, express interest in being his friend.
I like what RT has to say above it’s just hard to know exactly what’s going on from the brief descriptions here. But certainly 2&3 are more possible than 1, and their explanations here would be key to any chances of going forward. And Aldonza? Most of those ‘Red Flags’ would have easily applied to me before marriage & pretty much during (like Right Now) too! So they’ll only take you so far. And again, I’ve been married almost as long as Susan has too. One size does not fit all. Suspicions might be certainly warranted, but some guys are just deeply ‘private people’. I’m like that in spades.
It was years before I’d let my GF/now wife drive my car. For a variety of very good reasons. (It was a really cranky [Volvo 164E, 3L] like it’s owner). She rarely met any of my single friends, or ‘drinking buds’ for damn good reasons. No self respecting soul would want to hang with them (way back when) either, mostly! To this day if anyone asks a question, I usually respond back ‘Why?’ Or ‘Why do you want to know’. That’s more habit than anything else. I do not open mail addressed to her, and she certainly doesn’t do that for mine either. Ditto for email accounts etc. Trust is a 2 way street. It has to be slowly earned & then cautiously accepted and studied for awhile. But certainly accepted on the terms on offer. I trust my wife, because I know she’s a good person. Ditto for her too. There’s no correlation evidently between that and her (or my) ability to reach one another during certain times of day. Sometimes for all day. Work constraints and our busy lives see to it that all the old rules need some updates here too.
So bottom line? You never know until you ask, and even then? You’ve got to listen hard and follow up intelligently. And try harder to understand what might have been said in the context of which it was offered, always trying to keep an open mind too. And if you’re confused? It always pays to ask politely again too. Not in a too eager way either. Just like the next time you see him. So you’re serious about this GF in Dubuque? What is it about Iowa that enchants everyone? Don’t imagine, ask and Engage! Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
Re 2: good advice – in other words, just chill and see how he behaves. Definitely do not reveal stalking! In fact, Valerie should play dumb about Facebook. Facebook? What’s that?
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Re 3: The tough thing here is that it can be very difficult to tell flirty from friendly. Did he try to hook up? Obviously not. But he’s been in regular touch since then.
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It seems like the bottom line is that there is no foolproof system for figuring this out in advance. Yes, you might weed out the jerks, but you could also weed out a decent guy who’s just trying to be a friend. It’s self-defeating to be paranoid – but also self-defeating to be gullible. In the end, there’s no shortcut – you have to get to know people.
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I think the key in this culture is to guard your heart rather carefully. Don’t be paranoid, but do be cautious. Don’t fall for pretty talk, hold out for concrete demonstrations of caring. What’s hard about this is that so many young women want the real thing – and as they see signs of interest or even friendship from attractive guys, it’s hard not to let one’s imagination run wild.
VJ, I always get a good belly laugh when you comment. In this case, it was telling Aldonza that all her red flags apply to you. I know you’re quirky, (in a good way!), but I also know with absolutely certainty that your wife’s intuition tells her that you are 100% true. I really don’t think those red flags apply to you. As for your car, I seem to remember that you like going 100 mph on Georgia highways – so you are perhaps excused for having a special relationship with your auto.
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I do hear you re privacy. I would not dream of opening my husband’s mail. And his email? Goodness, no. I remember in the early days of our relationship, when we still had separate apartments, my husband would go off to work while I slept in. Alone in his apartment, I snooped a couple of times. I don’t know what I was looking for, and I never found anything remotely interesting. Nowadays, it’s much more tempting I think – just glancing at someone’s texts while they’re in the shower – who’s to know? You are, and that’s the problem. If you’re feeling like you need to snoop it means you’re feeling unsure. That’s normal during the early days, but if you are suspicious after a time, it’s not a good sign. As you say, it’s really about trust and feeling that your SO is of good character.
Don’t imagine, ask and engage – a very fitting piece of advice. Imagination has ruined many a relationship.
Aldonza’s dope is wound tight here (as the saying goes), though I’m not sure I want to find out how she knows all this right off the top.
What I’m curious about: This is a list of red flags, warning indicators if you see them. Can anyone suggest an alternative list of green lights, which are behaviors that should positively indicate someone is on the up-and-up? Yes, technically the lack of a red flag could be called a green light. But I’m looking for something more active and definite: are there any reliable ways to spot good character and honesty from what a person actually does?
I’m with you on the just friends with the opposite sex! For the longest time, most of my circle was men because with my forthright attitude I don’t get along with alot of women. I wasn’t sexually attracted to any of them, but if you watched from the outside, I’m sure that at some point in time someone would have thought I was dating one of them. Our main hangout place was a local diner that we would spend hours in, the laughter and light flirting would roll, I’d use them as pillows and the one would always give me a back or foot rub when I came in if it was a hard day at work.
In those days, it was still myspace, and I’m sure if a girl stalked through some of the pictures would be hard to explain lol! I remember one, my male friend was going through massage school and offered to let him practice on my, so here I am, on a table, with just the sheet, looking very relaxed with his hand half way up my leg… Never was anything there.
My best friend is still a guy, and we are close as can be. He’s still my pillow on the couch watching movies and such. There are very few details that we don’t know about each other. We even lived together for awhile! So long as there are boundaries and no sexual attraction, there is no reason they can’t be friends!
Asking is defiently key. And listening. And not subbing in the words we want to hear. I think guys, by and large, will mostly tell the truth. Or a plain lie. They’ll rarely have ten thousand indirect thoughts for what they’re saying. But asking can clear things up so quickly, and yes, it can be really painful, but its the difference between setting a broken bone right (ouch) and just letting the broken bone lie. If the truth is clear, everyone can move on, and trust can be established.
I loved that old Volvo, and we kept it around until it needed ‘diapers’ as the wife would say. It was constantly leaking from one seal or another. Not so coincidentally, the brakes might go on it suddenly, and you had to pump them hard to ‘regain’ them. Other than spend $1-2k redoing the entire system, it just had to ‘limp’ along. Then there was ‘the little man smoking’ in the vents as she called it. Lovely. At certain speeds (ahem) the AC fan would go on the fritz for some reason & mist would waft from the vents. This was actually a very good thing as this was just about the only time the A/C was working well! The vents always had issues, but the car had some unique side floor vents that you could open up too. Sometimes I just keep them open & forget about them in the winter. She took to wearing a ‘car coat’ when we were traveling then. So no one in their right mind would’ve let a loved one drive in that car alone!
But yeah, YMMV with the younger set. These older models? We worry about being able to start fires & such. Drinking water supplies for example. Don’t get me started… Cheers, ‘VJ’
General guidelines–
(1) It is perfectly acceptable for men and women to “date around.” Prior to our age of commitment phobia, people were significantly less committed to their romantic interests–barring marriage of course, in which case their commit pales our own.
(2) It is necessary pursuant to (1) that women be sparing and careful with how they give their hearts and, especially, with how they give physical affection. Sex, kissing, touching, etc does not equal love for a man. If these things are meaningful to you or you want them to be meaningful, then withhold them until you are assured of his devotion to you and worthiness.
(3) It is not what men say or what they feel that makes them what they are. It is what they *do*. Ingenuously asking is no good; because a man who’s cheating is already lying.
(4) The only way to truly understand someone’s character is by constant observation of it. Give your instincts and prejudice their due–they are important–but do not be bound to them. Charming and apparently moral men have oft proved to be seducing cads and prideful, stand offish, socially awkward jerks have often proved very honorable upon further acquaintance. In fact, I think there’s a book written about that…
Sorry, no easy answers; that’s life. If you keep to (2) and don’t put yourself in harm–i.e., don’t go into dark dungeons without a cell phone with him–you should be okay. Indeed, keeping to (2) will weed out the jerks from the gents rather quickly. Of course, the great Don Giovanni’s like to work for it.
Off the cuff response, however? 1 and 3 are jerks; 2 may or may not be. If I had a penny for the number of girls who commented on my facebook wall, pinning after me, I’d have about a nickle–but still! Granted, 2 may be a player. I would never keep asking a girl after 3 years.
That said, keep your eyes open. Such is life. There’s more than three guys out there, though. You are allowed to date around too.
What should we take away from these experiences? Surely, Valerie is very attractive, and has garnered her share of male attention. Just as clearly, the fact that she turns these guys down makes her more attractive. This might be part of the lesson. But, this isn’t The Dating Game, or even The Merchant of Venice or Turandot, where she has to choose one of the three. It could be that the correct answer is Number 4.
She obviously does not want to be in the position of the girl who has been hanging out at the bar all night and then, at last call, has to decide between going home with Mr. Wrong and going home alone.
And just as clearly she has thought long and hard about these guys, and thus her intuitions should be respected. If, after careful reflection, something is still signalling danger, then I would not want to talk her out of paying attention to it.
It sounds to me that she is more drawn to #2 than to #1 or #3. Since everyone believes that #1 is not worth pursuing, I will have to agree. As for #3 there is clearly some ambiguity in his ending a fun evening by mentioning that he has a girlfriend. And it is possible to spin this to make him seem honest. But I see it as a sign that the affection he was showing her throughout the evening was less than perfectly sincere. It sounds as though he was toying with her.
#2 sounds like the most promising, though I do not understand how they could have worked together during summers and still do not know very much about each other. I also do not know how old he is, among other salient details. And I am also not clear about what it means to suggest to a woman that you go out on the town. Is that a direct invitation to dinner and a show or is it an expression of wishful thinking. Plus, going out on the town sounds like a formulaic expression, which does not feel quite right either.
If he invites her to dinner or a concert and she wants to go and is willing to use the occasion as an opportunity to get to know someone, I don’t see the problem. And yet, they have known each other for three years, and I would think that a man who was interested would have found a way to spend a little time together with her, so that they can get to know each other better.
So, #2 sounds the most promising, but there are still red flags. Or, should I say, incomplete information.
Stuart Schneiderman´s last [type] ..The American Man: R.I.P.?
Dilithium, this is a GREAT question! I am going to give this some thought. In fact, this would be a really good post. A glass half full, rather than half empty, approach. And it needn’t be gender specific. Good character is good character. I hope others will weigh in here!
Women are unfortunately very, very good at subbing in the words they want to hear. Often, we make it impossible for a guy to tell the truth, because we refuse to hear it. I like your broken bone metaphor. Clean break, set things right, get up and move on.
Interesting post, Ms. Walsh.
I don’t know about everyone else, but i for one am just tickled pink in anticipation of seeing how the New Girl Order will actually play itself out. Without question, this will include the college aged dating scene. Let’s check back this time next year and compare notes!
As for the whole Male/Female friend thing, to each his or her own, but I don’t do Female friends as such like that. I like to keep the lines of demarcation nice and bright.
O.
I’m looking for something more active and definite: are there any reliable ways to spot good character and honesty from what a person actually does?<<<<
Yes, and it's quite easy.
Rule #1 Don't be horny or physically attracted to the person. The horny hormones will invariably kill you character detection skills.
Is there any need to go on?
PJL, very good stuff here, a blueprint for happiness with the opposite sex, or at least the absence of heartbreak. However, it requires great patience, something the kids are not always so good at. Is there really a book written about jerks who turn out to be good guys? I would love to know how to pick up on the cues that signal that!
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OK, a couple of questions –
If a guy asks for three years does that increase the likelihood that he is a player? I would have thought it was the opposite. Why wouldn’t he just move on to easier prey? Or are you saying he likes to work for it, can’t rest until he has conquered every single woman he’s had his eye on?
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Why do you say 3 is a jerk? You don’t think he could be pursuing platonic friendship? Is he also a guy who now sees the girl who won’t cheat with him as the ultimate challenge?
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This is exactly what Valerie is trying to figure out! Yes, she can proceed with caution and see how 2 and 3 act, but why even go there if we can reasonably assume one or both are jerks?
This is a good analysis of Valerie’s situation, I think. I too have a hunch that #3 was toying with her, but she needs more information. Same with #2. The dilemma, of course, is knowing when to throw in the towel to prevent wasting time, as well as potential disappointment or even heartbreak. Either one of these guys might demonstrate interest for a time in ways that are appropriate and encouraging, only to dump Valerie once she has bonded with them.
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I think she can move forward if she has a zero tolerance policy for being treated with disrespect. Personally, I would recommend withholding sex until she is secure in a man’s affection. She will need to watch carefully to assess his character, as PJL said above. There are no guarantees in love, as we know, but most players won’t stick around too long without sex. As our friend Paolo so aptly demonstrated in the last post!
I resemble #2 on Facebook. The girl writing on his wall may not be a girlfriend or even an ex, but a straight man who gets that much attention from women is going to take advantage of the opportunities presented. I haven’t had sex with any of the girls who regularly post on my wall.
#3 is looking to hook-up or use you as social proof so he can hook-up with other girls easier. You don’t want to be an accomplice so he’s out of the picture.
Ohhh, this is helpful. A player weighs in. Sounds like the platonic friendship explanation is a non-starter?
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Re #2 – I haven’t seen pictures of either Valerie of any of these guys, but it sounds like all the guys have considerable social proof already. They’re approaching Valerie with little fear of rejection. If #2 has been trying to hang out with her for three summers running, he obviously thinks it’s unlikely that she isn’t truly interested, or at least attracted. Valerie is getting a lot of male attention, as Stuart pointed out, and from guys with options. So I’m assuming Valerie is a very attractive young woman.
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As I said, I think the degree of difficulty is high here. If Valerie wants to have some fun and drama this summer, she can enjoy the attention. She has nothing to lose. If #2 is just looking for the conquest, that should be evident very quickly. On the other hand, she says he’s older – some of even the most hardened players grow tired of the Game and settle down and some point. Of course, if his number is high, he’s bringing baggage of a potentially troubling nature.
How does this post address the New Girl Order? Please explain – commenters here may not know what you’re talking about.
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Re platonic friendship – it sounds like the women on this thread are all for it, and have some experience with successful friendships with guys. The men, on the other hand, seem to discount this as a possible motive. Which leads to a question:
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How much effort, if any, will a guy put into establishing a new platonic friendship with a woman? Is it even possible that a guy who is texting about what’s up on the weekend, chatting online, and being friendly and funny by your side all night at a party is NOT thinking about sex? I hear what you’re saying about keeping things clearly defined, but I wonder if any guy will invest time and energy into a new friendship if he’s already taken.
Ah, green flags. Strange how we don’t talk much about them, but an interesting question. I’ll take a stab at it.
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Green Flag 1: Congruence. This is simply that things make sense. They “fit”. A lot of women’s intuition is piecing together all the little details and seeing if they fit. If something doesn’t make sense, there’s probably a reason.
Green Flag 2: He makes time to be with you non-sexually. I have dated men who worked 100+ hours weeks and they still found time to spend with me that wasn’t 1am for a booty call.
Green Flag 3: You don’t make excuses for him to your friends/family. This is a bad habit women have. Don’t do it. Even better, find someone for whom you don’t have to do it.
Green Flag 4: His behavior and attitudes towards other people, particularly women, is respectful and consistent. He tips even ugly waitresses, doesn’t talk trash about people, and has a decent relationship with his mother.
Green Flag 5: He seems proud to be with you. He likes showing you off and having you meet people he knows.
Green Flag 6: The more you learn about him, the more you like him. Time should bring *less* doubt about him as a person, not more.
Green Flag 7: He seems to genuinely like you, enjoys your company and he shows it in some way. He does not act as though he is doing you a favor by spending time with you. Seems basic, but it’s amazing how many people don’t get this one.
Green Flag 8: He takes responsibility for his actions. This extends to realizing his own contributions to relationships that have ended. If all of his exes were “raging psychos”, he isn’t seeing or admitting any of his culpability.
Green Flag 9: He doesn’t make you crazy. There are guys out there that are expert “crazy-makers”. They’re deliberately vague, hard to pin down, feed you little bits of *incongruent* fluff to keep your hamster running on the wheel. Game describes how to do this to women. A little bit of intrigue is good. A lot will just make you another one of his “raging psycho” exes.
Green Flag 10: You like him. Yeah, I know, you’ve liked assholes before, but you genuinely *like* (not just lust) the man he is. If you didn’t date him, you’d probably still want to be friends with him (not that I recommend that, just saying, even if you didn’t find him hot, you’d like him). He has positive qualities that have nothing to do with sex appeal.
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There are no hard and fast rules about these things. We’re all “learning on the job”.
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“Learn all you can from the mistakes of others. You won’t have time to make them all yourself.”
~Alfred Sheinwold
Hi Ms. Walsh,
Sure, here’s the definitive article on the matter:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_4_new_girl_order.html
As for your other question: I cannot speak for any Man other than myself, but I simply do not require female friends as such, and never have. My interest in the Women in my life tends to be more intense, let’s say. That’s not to say that I don’t have female acquaintences I do. But the idea of hagning out with them and so forth, nah.
Holla back
O.
@VJ
All of those red flags have applied to most men at one time or another. A wise woman will acknowledge a red flag, note it, look for reasonable explanations, and either heed or disregard it. A man not allowing me to drive his tempermental car (or his suh-weet fully restored classic GTO…*sighs*) is different than a man who is uncomfortable with me even sitting in his car alone. See, women are territorial. If there’s another woman around, she’s likely “marked” his car or his space in some way. Other women are equally adept at picking up on those markings. A man who knows this is nervous whenever a woman is in his space.
I would not expect to read my partner’s email. But a guy I’m seeing exclusively who won’t let me even borrow his computer for a minute to check my email? Red Flag.
And reacting to questioning is always a matter of degree. I usually also ask, “why do you want to know?” I do this because I want to understand what the asker is really asking before answering. I’m talking more about someone who bristles and gets defensive.
And all of the red flags are relationship-timeline dependent. I don’t even really look for red flags in guys I’ve just met. They’d *all* fail.
From the New Girl Order:
“it makes sense that the SYF is partly to blame for a worldwide drop in fertility rates. ”
I think we can take that further than partly, but more importantly….analyzing cultures and mores and such is a really tough thing, but there is one statement that is an absolute, irrefutable truth: The future belongs to those who show up.
The New Girl Order began its descent the moment it arrived. The only question is whether the ride down will be a dystopian nightmare or a wild hedonist party.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but if I don’t have romantic interest in a woman, I’ll just leave her alone. That’s not to say I don’t have platonic female friends, but those friendships developed because various circumstances (work, school, mutual friends, etc.) brought us together in some way. Nonetheless, I deeply value those friendships.
Again, that is just how it works for me, but I suspect many guys operate in a similar manner. In high school, I always found it remarkably telling that the girls with the most male “friends” were also the prettiest, most flirtatious, and most popular. If I were female and constantly had guys trying to strike up platonic friendships with me (with no shared circumstances driving those friendships) I’d probably be suspicious.
Of course, number 3 could also be a stereotypical Nice Guy who naively believes that friendship and kindness could eventually translate into romance. If he really likes the girl, I could easily see him investing that much time and energy in hopes of getting something more.
Lastly, is it possible that the “guy who is texting about what’s up on the weekend, chatting online, and being friendly and funny by your side all night at a party is NOT thinking about sex?” Probably not. Chances are it will cross his mind at least once. Put two members of the opposite sex together – even if they are firmly committed to other people – and there will still be some base level of sexual tension. It’s just how things are. Again, one will simply have to be patient and study the other person’s character. Actions always are more important than words.
Ms. Walsh,
I am afraid I don’t completely follow your comments above in relation to the NGO article link I posted. Please elaborate? Thanks!
O.
Oops, my bad, I was addressing Alex, NOT Ms. Walsh, LOL. Just wanted to make that clear.
O.
Susan,
I’m so, so much younger than you think I am
. I’ve always been an old soul–a quick learner, and a people watcher. When you’re young, everything seems very immediate. It seems that way to me, as well; but I try to take my elders seriously when they tell that my perspective is very jaundiced. So, patience isn’t easy; but it’s the only way. Just one man’s opinion.
Questions:
(1) Pride and Prejudice! Darcy was an absolute jerk the first time Eliza met him, a real foil to his friend Bingley and… Wickham! Austen’s point seems to have been that there’s a difference between charming manners and virtuous character. Unfortunately, virtue is a type of habit.
(2) Well, if a guy asks for three years, he’s either completely infatuated or rejection doesn’t bother him. Now, rejection bothers most everybody; so why wouldn’t rejection bother him? There’s more to womanizing than the getting your rocks off. It’s a type of conquest, a sort of pride at getting able to seduce whomever you want. I know a fellow who’s absolutely taken with this girl–going on two years. Asked her once, was shot down. A year later he tried again, was shot down again. He’s a young guy; most guys get used to hearing “no,” and cut loses and run for the hills after a while. For a man not used to hearing “no,” however. . . hearing it is a challenge, a call to up his game–not a romantic defeat. Of course, this assumes she’s not flirting with him… if she is, then he could just be a good guy tormented by mixed signals.
(3) If you’re in a committed relationship with a girl and you meet a really cool girl, who you think would make a great Platonic friend, the #1 thing you do is introduce her to your social circle. But to go someplace with a girl, one on one is so rife with ambiguity and potential that no one could do it in clear conscious unless his relationship with his girlfriend is open. Even if he is ingenuously pursuing a friendship, he’s putting himself in a situation that would look strange to his woman and that would make it more tempting to cheat. Half of virtue is the avoidance of tempting situations. I can’t speak to his motivations, but the more flirtatious his messages and the more suggestive his proposed hang outs–esp. dinner–the less noble they are. Men tend not to want Platonic friendships with women. In fact, I’ll go further: girls only make good friends when they’re in a relationship with a good guy, who is also your friend. For the most part, single girls are less than good friends to men. Just one man’s opinion.
Just my 2 cents. If you want to know if a guy’s a good guy, introduce him to some loyal guy friends, btw. I can sniff out an asshole a mile away; unfortunately, not too good with flakes.
When women don’t have babies in this generations, there’s no next generation to carry on their values, customs and mores….obviously.
If the NGO women aren’t breeding anywhere near replacement rates and Mormon women (for example) are popping out 3, 4 or 5 pups each, it’s not hard to guess which culture will be ascendant in the next generation and which will be on the decline. Multiply that phenomena by three or four generations and we’re all wearing funny underwear to church and Starbucks is going broke.
I suppose one could argue that the NGO may adapt / evolve, but any adaptaion will have to include women cranking out babies when they’re in their late teens and early 20s…which would mean a defacto end to the New Girl Order. The NGO began its descent the moment it arrived, this will be more apparent with each succeeding generation.
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Anecdotally….I attended a small party recently and I took a little inventory — probably 20-odd SWPL types, ages ranging from 30ish – early 40ish. Most of the folks there were attending as part of a couple, all of the women definitely fit the NGO stereotype. Out of the 20 of us, I’m guessing no more than 7, 8 kids tops. Do the math here….
20 -> 8 -> ?
Ha! Easier said than done! Those female rationalization hamster wheels are always spinning at top speed.
LOL, I didn’t realize you’d beat me to it with the hamster wheel! All good stuff here. Again, a lot of this rides on intuition, and that’s something that Stuart pointed out as well. When we have a sense of something, we may be off or just paranoid, but we shouldn’t dismiss uneasy feelings. At the very least, we should seek plenty of proof that we were mistaken. Conversely, having a generally good feeling about someone, rather than a worry that you’re going to get played again, is a positive feeling worth paying attention to.
Great quote there, btw.
OK, PJL, you’ve got me intrigued. There is something a bit conservative in your writing – I figured you had to be either a bit older, or demonstrating British reserve. Now here you are saying you’re young, and trotting out Darcy! So I guess I’m going with the UK as home base.
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1. I am genuinely ashamed at my failure to recognize the Austen plant. Ugh. I profess to be a lover of Jane Austen, and now I’ve destroyed all credibility. All I can say in my defense is that my mind was wandering through virtual aisles of self-help books circa 2010 as I read that. When I should have remembered that just about everything we need to know about human mating behavior is contained in those precious six novels. I remember when Lizzie said that one man had all the virtue, and the other all the appearance of it, or something like that.
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2. Sounds like you are definitely putting your money on conquest rather than infatuation. I’m inclined to agree. I hope Valerie will provide an update! I wouldn’t assume she’s not been flirting with him by the way – just the fact that she says she declines but would love to accept – I’d think an astute guy could sense the attraction, and be puzzled by the refusal. If he’s confident, and it seems like he is, then he may just find it worthwhile to keep chipping away until she caves or he doesn’t get the sexual tension vibe anymore.
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3. I agree with you about appearances, and putting yourself in the way of temptation. I would not want my bf working hard to establish a “platonic” friendship with a girl he met while I was absent. I can just hear him saying, “I told her I had a gf!” and considering himself honest, then going right ahead and trying like mad to get Valerie alone. If I were the gf, I’d have a bad feeling about this, which means Valerie probably should too.
I like the idea of introducing a guy to trusted pals. Guys have commented before that often they’ll be thinking a guy is such an asshole, and then they can’t believe it when a girl says, “Oh! I think he’s so nice!” We definitely don’t have good BS detectors – we keep overriding them with wishful thinking.
As for flakes, haha, girls are very, very good at knowing which girls operate that way, so just flip your advice. That should work.
Matt, you make a key point here made by both the guys and women – platonic friendships that naturally develop from circumstances bringing you together are different than that sort of focused courting of a person for friendship. I’ve done both with women, but never courted a man for friendship in that way. I would be especially careful of that approach if I were in a relationship and he were single. It really does sound like #3 is making mischief the more I think about it.
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I’ll stand by my Proceed with Caution advisory. If Valerie has the energy and right frame of mind for this, something good could happen. But as I and others have said, she should definitely not stop looking for Bachelor #4.
Susan, with all this discussion on guy/girl friendships, I’m thinking you should write a post on it. (God knows how much drama that aspect of life has caused in my own life)….It’s really interesting that most of the female posters seem to be epro-platonic, and the guys are a bit more indifferent about platonic…
Idk. it’s defiently a topic I’ve been putting a lot of thought into. It’s way more complicated than “when harry met sally”
Haha, yes GFN, Harry and Sally are the go-to for this topic, even though that was more than 20 years ago! The thing is, I think your generation is much better at friendship than mine was. It’s not unusual for people to be hooking up, stop, remain friends, hook up again, more than friends, stop, back to friends. That never would have happened in the 80s. On the other hand, can P ignore V when it is in the vicinity? I think not….perhaps it’s a question of guys valuing a friendship enough to not go there. Though a glimpse of lacy thong might present a problem…just saying.
hahahah. thanks susan… and yes, i’ve heard lacy underwear causes some problems in platonic friendships…..
It’s good to know my generation is doing at least one thing right when it comes to relationships…although one trend i have noticed is girl’s willful stupidity when it comes to a guy friend having a crush on them. I was even guilty of this, but came clean to the friend when i got to experience the friendship-crush experience
I think its kinda a result of girls being scared of the hookup culture. They want male companionship, someone to cuddle with and go to the movies with, but none of the emotional complications of a hookup. The only problem is almost always, from what i’ve seen, the poor boy falls for the girl, and waits forever for things to change, thereby taking a “dad” type guy off the market for the other girls. I’ve been trying harder, with my guy friends that i’m not interested in, not to put them in situations where they think more is going on, or has a chance of happening. because i’ve been in that boat, and its not a fun one.
It’s amazing how life experience can give us empathy for others. I really respect your willingness to clue guys in. I’ve never thought about the opportunity cost for the person who has the crush before – but that’s a great point. It’s really not fair to keep a “dad” focused on you because you like the attention if he would be happier and make someone else happy by moving on.
Valerie is getting a lot of male attention, as Stuart pointed out, and from guys with options. So I’m assuming Valerie is a very attractive young woman.
Every girl who isn’t ugly gets a lot of male attention. Girls shouldn’t take the quantity of male attention they receive as anything but an indication that they don’t look like dogs. Girls make the mistake of assuming the type of men who are willing to bang them, are the type of men they can get into serious relationships. This is a huge mistake. The average woman can get a man way old of her league to have sex with her, but she’ll quickly discover these men aren’t willing to have her for an LTR.
This is an interesting conversation for me as I just addressed this – upon request – at my own blog. I wonder if the difference in optimism about male/female friendships is a matter of experience or changes in society. I found that when I was single, it was almost impossible to pull off long-term.
As far as bachelors # 1, 2, and 3 go – aren’t there any other guys to pick from? Can we cast the net a little wider? These all sound like they want something a bit more basic then the pleasure of your company.
grerp´s last [type] ..Piece of Advice #43: Recognize the limitations of male-female friendships
SO TRUE! I am always telling my girlfriends the level of guy they’ve been in relationships with is the level of guy they are able to get. The level they sleep with but are unable to “convert” is not.
Hi grerp, I did see that post, and I encourage readers to click on the link above and check it out. It very much reflects my own experience. Well, that’s not true. That story of being abandoned in Russia when you rejected a guy’s advances is unbelievable.
As for casting the net a little wider, that’s obviously what Valerie needs to do, but I’m not sure what that looks like. She can wait for more earnest guys to come along, which is what she’s been doing. But of course she’s tempted by the attention she’s getting, as she finds the guys attractive. I think the question is how can Valerie attract a good guy instead of a player?
This makes total sense. However, Valerie has said she’s getting attention from guys acting shady, and finds each of them physically attractive. So where are the slightly less attractive guys who are relationship material? What I hear from young women is that ALL guys seem to be shady. Obviously, that’s not the case, so how does a woman encourage an earnest guy to take an interest?
VI is a total player – he doesn’t even do monogamous LTRs. In fact, he’d probably put all three of these guys to shame.
Perhaps this is better after college? I know there are plenty of good men out there, but if they’re MIA, then what choice does Valerie really have?
GRERP: “As far as bachelors # 1, 2, and 3 go – aren’t there any other guys to pick from? Can we cast the net a little wider?”
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Bingo…..one of the observations of Game (fwiw, I’m more of an analyst than a practitioner) is that women are by and large oblivious to men they don’t find attractive. Hence, when *Valarie* says: “This spring I had three different guys showing interest in me”, we should take careful note of the her following comment that “every one of them is attractive”. I submit that a more objective statement of facts might be something along the lines of ‘several men showed an interest in Valarie, three of whom she also found attractive.’
The interesting question (to me) becomes ‘is it mere coincidence that the three men she found attractive are in some form of a relationship?’ Is this social proofing at work or are there other factors at play? I don’t know, but that’s the question that popped into my head.
The Vilnius trip was…a learning experience, Susan. I’m all learned up now, though, on how good I am at fostering male/female friendships.
Where is she meeting #1, 2, and 3? It’s a good question – how to meet more promising guys and tell them from players. Another question is what kind of summer relationship does she want? If she only wants to date around, that shouldn’t be too hard, I wouldn’t think. You can separate the players from the others by which ones call you back when you don’t sleep with them, right?
grerp´s last [type] ..Piece of Advice #43: Recognize the limitations of male-female friendships
Touche. At most, all she has to risk is one evening. That doesn’t sound so bad.
It’s very possible that Valerie received attention from men she didn’t bother to mention. In fact, it certainly seems likely that there were other men who were attracted to her. What we don’t know is whether those other men made their interest known. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Valerie was directly approached by these men b/c they have little fear of rejection. Either they rarely get turned down, or have learned that a certain amount of rejection is to be expected as one moves from one woman to another in quick succession.
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I have to think that social proof is at work here – why wouldn’t it be? However, I think it also speaks to men taking full advantage of what’s on offer. If these men are in relationships, they are what I would call “low investment” relationships. That is, they continue to survey and pursue other options. Their girlfriends are either naive or have decided to share them in harem fashion, as long as they can be #1.
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In the end, I think Valerie should have a fun summer by enjoying the attention she’s getting from 2 and 3. #1 is clearly a douchebag and a waste of time. He’s already pissed her off, it’s a nonstarter. She got her eyes wide open, and I think she can explore (at arm’s length!) what 2 and 3 are after.
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I don’t know if these two are cads, but Cad Management is a skill worth developing, in any case.
Susan, why don’t you approve of open relationships? I remember you saying that it isn’t a good way to have a family and I have some reservations about that as well. But if a couple does not have children and is not planning to have them any time soon, then what is wrong with that. I’m just interested in your opinion.
Anni, if an open relationship appeals equally to both parties, then I have no problems with it, assuming, as you say, that they don’t have children. I have read a lot of tales of open relationships and polyamory, and to be honest, it seems like something the man is lobbying for at least 80% of the time. It’s often a form of ultimatum for the woman: we get to sleep with other people openly, or I’ll cheat on you or leave you. Just as threesomes are usually instigated by men and include 2 women, one man. Polyamorous triads are also usually two women, one man. However, if a woman is happy with the arrangement, it’s certainly not a problem for me.
Secondly, the health risks increase exponentially in open relationships.
Thirdly, I strongly disapprove of married couples with children practicing polyamory, as I believe it gives young people a very skewed view of relationships, and teaches them that monogamy isn’t normal. We could debate whether that’s true, but our civilization is founded on a monogamous family model, and that’s not changing anytime soon.
Susan, your reasoning makes sense and I agree. I think a woman should not make such important sacrifices in a relationship if she is not happy with them and she should not accept such ultimatums. However, I’d like to add a two thoughts.
Firstly, relationships are product of an ongoing negotiation. For men, as I understand, sexual variety is very important. For women, it generally isn’t that important. So if it is something he is lobbying for, then he should be offering something in return for this to the women, not just the opportunity for them to have sex with other men since it probably isn’t something the women would be that interested in anyway.
Secondly, in case where a woman’s sexual desire is lower than the man’s (which I think is not very uncommon), having another woman to cater to that could actually help a relationship. I remember you warning women that if they don’t put out then their men are more likely to cheat. It is probably true, but I also think that it is not healthy for a woman to have sex more often than she wants to. Of course, it could be argued that two people with so different sex drives shouldn’t be together at all. I think an open relationship offers an alternative.
I have no idea if these ideas would actually work in real life. In any case a woman’s instinct will probably tell her if a man is up to no good. Whether she listens to it, is a totally different matter.
Anni, you make a good point about negotiations. Men often assume that women want what they want, and vice versa. The problem is that men and women are often at cross-purposes. Men value sexual variety, while women value having sex with a favored male who she feels secure will stick around. Very few women can maintain that sense of security in an open relationship, but that’s not to say that none can. It’s really a personal choice.
Re differing sex drives, I think that’s an issue over long periods of time, and the explanation is often chemical. Hormones in the brain tamp down sex drive in women when they have young children, for example. And fatigue often takes a toll on both sexes. In general, though, I would say that men prefer more frequent sex than women after the first few years in a relationship. I do think women who want to keep their men happy will have sex whenever he wants to (within reason, haha). By the way, I’m not envisioning a situation where the guy is gung ho and the woman is repelled. I’m talking about cases where he is highly motivated, and she is less so, but will enjoy the sex once it gets going.
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