In the discussion following a recent post about one woman’s iPhone infidelity, Mike asked:
Just curious, you had the post on this is what good guys look like and red flags for bad guys, I’d be interested if you have a comparable list on how to identify the red flags for bad girls who are likely to behave like the woman here.
That’s a fair question, and as I’ve been thinking it over I’ve found that applying the same standards women use doesn’t really work. Women are attracted to men for a whole host of reasons, and struggle with the question of how to read a guy’s intentions. We don’t want to have sex too soon and lose his respect, but we don’t want to hold out so long that he seeks satisfaction elsewhere. For women, it’s critical to observe a man’s character over a period of time to assess his willingness to enter into a committed relationship.
Character is very important in women too, but men are primarily drawn to women via physical attraction. Their interest in a woman is immediate upon seeing her, and she may wield considerable power over him based on her sexual attractiveness. Women are generally willing to enter relationships, but men worry about finding out down the road that a woman was not who he thought. How can a man verify a woman’s character quickly, so that he doesn’t get caught up in a relationship with a woman who is unlikely to be monogamous over the long-term?
If a man avoids one thing in a woman, he will increase his chances of long-term happiness a thousand fold:
Female Narcissism
It used to be that the word narcissist wasn’t thrown around lightly. We saved it for sociopaths and historical figures like Machiavelli and Napolean. Female examples were rare, and generally found in fiction: Rebecca of the Daphne Du Maurier novel, Gloria Swanson as Norma Desmond in the 1950 film Sunset Boulevard. In its worst form it is a diagnosable personality disorder (NPD), and historically, 75% of those diagnosed with NPD have been male. However, researchers who have recently studied narcissistic personality traits in the American population say it’s an epidemic, increasing just as fast as obesity since the 1980s, and that much of the growth comes from women. Twenge and Campbell, authors of The Narcissism Epidemic, studied 37,000 college students (2006) in an effort to understand modern levels of self-involvement:
1. In 1982, just 15% of college kids scored high on the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, but that number has risen to 25%, largely due to a greater number of narcissistic women.
2. In the 1950s, just 12% of respondents agreed with the statement, “I am an important person.” By the 1980s, 80% felt special.
3. In 1967, 45% of American students felt that “Being well off is an important life goal.” By 2004, 74% agreed with that statement.
4. Nearly 10% of 20-somethings are thought to have NPD, and it’s estimated that 26% of people now in their twenties will have developed NPD by the age of 65.
Women narcissists often are diagnosed with the subset Histrionic Personality Disorder:
A personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking, including an excessive need for approval and inappropriate seductiveness, usually beginning in early adulthood. These individuals are lively, dramatic, enthusiastic, and flirtatious.
They may be inappropriately sexually provocative, express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, and be easily influenced by others. Associated features may include egocentrism, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, feelings that are easily hurt, and persistent manipulative behavior to achieve their own needs.
Female narcissists focus more heavily on physical appearance that male narcissists. They often overestimate their own attractiveness, and focus on displaying or flaunting physical attributes. Scientists think there may be a link between narcissism and anorexia or bulimia.
In summary, female narcissists see their lives as a running feature film with them in the lead, receiving accolades at all times. Women narcissists in their 30s and 40s who are unhappily single will generally blame their unpartnered state on being too independent, feisty, strong-minded, intimidating and intelligent for most men. They have little self-awareness.
What Caused the Narcissism Epidemic?
There is far less social pressure to demonstrate character than in past generations. Daughters who once would have been disciplined for spoiled behavior are now allowed to dictate the dinner menu, or veto a family move.
The self-esteem movement, which was intended to create happy, friendly children, produced a generation of kids who filled their rooms with “Participant” trophies and congratulated themselves for showing up. In fact, Twenge and Campbell found that 30% of students felt that they should get good grades just for attending class. Indeed, grade inflation at the country’s best universities is a serious problem, and Cornell West was rumored to have regularly given all A’s in his course at Harvard.
During the 1960s, the core American value of individualism began to morph into self-admiration. The human potential movement stressed introspection and self-improvement, intending self-actualization. However, the concept of self-esteem became a shortcut to the hard work of real personal change.
During the 70S and 80s, Americans became obsessed with celebrity culture, and eating disorders skyrocketed.
Today, social media breeds narcissism by constantly encouraging women to post flattering photos, and create online profiles that stress their uniqueness. Facebook, Twitter and YouTube all require self-promotion, bringing out the narcissist in us. Reality shows promote the most ordinary, unimpressive people as special, and we follow their dysfunctional lives with fascination.
As Twenge and Campbell point out, when I was growing up, it was normal to hear the following kinds of remarks from parents:
Who do you think you are?
Just wait until your father gets home!
Because I said so, that’s why.
My generation became parents and flipped the script. We justified our decisions at great length when our children disagreed with us. We gave up our own interests to spend hours building Lego structures with our kids or ensuring that our little soccer player got all the development she would need to get recruited to play in college someday. Psychologists used to believe that narcissism resulted from emotional damage in childhood at the hands of cold, neglectful parents. However, the data has never supported that theory, and now it’s widely accepted that narcissism grows from inflated feedback. American parents want super-achieving children, and we’ve insisted we have them, even if we have to create the fiction. Instead, we’ve created a generation of Special Little Snowflakes.
Hooking Up And Narcissism
Twenge and Campbell believe that hookups, FWBs and other no-strings relationships are a manifestation of the narcissism epidemic. Hooking up is considered a selfish act, in that it is about self-satisfaction rather than generosity toward another person. When couples do commit to a relationship, they often continue to wrestle for the upper hand, and relationships are often characterized by lack of emotion, antisocial attitudes and an emphasis on physical appearance. In addition, parents pressure their children to achieve, claiming that “love can wait.” That adds to the appeal, at least in the short-term, of no-strings sexual relationships.
“It changes what is normal behavior in dating,” says Campbell, referring to the hookup culture among youth that has left modern-day parents wringing their hands. According to Campbell and Twenge, the rise of the hookup culture and narcissism rates had a convergent evolution—a link they see as significant. “One of the hallmarks of a narcissist is short-term relationships that don’t require a lot of emotional investment,” says Campbell. Adds Twenge: “The current trend right now, especially among younger people, is that ‘I’m going to focus on myself, not on forging an emotionally close relationship.’”
Hannah Seligson’s article Do Narcissists Have Better Sex? for The Daily Beast makes another observation:
In fact, narcissism, even in small doses, has shifted courtship into a high-stakes relationship culture. Now that people think more highly of themselves, expectations of what a relationship should be like have skyrocketed into the realm of superlatives. Twentysomethings not only expect to waltz into high-level career positions right out of college, they also expect partners who have the moral fortitude of Nelson Mandela, the comedic timing of Stephen Colbert, the abs of Hugh Jackman, and the hair of Patrick Dempsey.
How to Identify a Female Narcissist
Physical Appearance
- She dresses provocatively, flaunting sexually suggestive body parts.
- She focuses attention on makeup and hair, even for the most mundane tasks or events.
- She is overly confident about her looks. Research shows that narcissists are no more attractive than other people, but they believe they are much better looking than other women.
- She places high value on brand names, and feels entitled to wear “the best.” She frequently purchases new clothing, and does not distinguish between wants and needs.
- She is more likely to have plastic surgery, most commonly breast augmentation.
- She enjoys being photographed, and often asks others to snap her picture. She enthusiastically shares the best pics of herself on Facebook or other social media sites. She will sometimes invest in a professional photographer for a portrait that she uses on Facebook or for online dating.
Personality/Character
- She insists on being the center of attention, and is often the most charming person in the room. Narcissists are very outgoing and excel at marketing themselves.
- She often seeks favorable treatment, and automatic compliance. She believes that she is special, and that she deserves fame, fortune, success and happiness.
- She is highly materialistic.
- She is prone to envy, though she presents as supremely confident. She seeks opportunities to undermine others, and enjoys sharing confidences about how the two of you are better than others.
- She is convinced that others are envious and jealous of her, and often uses this excuse for her lack of real, intimate friendships. When her friends enjoy successes of their own, she finds ways to punish them by downplaying their achievements.
- She lacks empathy, and even common courtesy at times. She puts others down, including you. She does not hesitate to exploit others.
- She is very competitive.
- She believes that she is intellectually superior to her peers.
- She blames others for problems. Narcissists don’t believe that they make mistakes, and lack the ability to process shame.
- She displays a haughty attitude when she lets her guard down or is confronted. She will act impatient, arrogant and condescending. She will often excuse her own shortcomings by claiming that others are pressuring her or expecting too much of her.
- She is dishonest and often lies to get what she wants. She will never admit this.
- She is “psycho:” She engages in risky behaviors, has an addictive personality, and is prone to aggressive behavior when rejected. (Note: This is most common with Histrionic Personality Disorder.)
- She is unpredictable in her moods and actions. You have trouble figuring out what she wants and where you stand.
- She is capable of short-term regret, and will apologize profusely if backed into a corner. However, she will quickly rationalize her behavior and return to narcissistic patterns.
A woman doesn’t need to have all 20 of these traits to make a lousy relationship partner. If you can check off even a few of these characteristics, you should head for the hills at 60 mph. The six traits related to physical appearance should be apparent immediately, or within a short time of meeting.
Narcissistic personality traits can be difficult to detect at first. Narcissists always make a strong showing right out of the gate, and it takes time for them to reveal their negative qualities. They will only do so when feeling threatened or that they are not receiving “their due” in some way.
{ 216 comments… read them below or add one }
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Blame it on Mr. Rogers….always telling kids they’re special.
HA! I knew there was something off about that guy.
#21 Does she have a little dog in her purse….
I don’t really see how fancying oneself important is necessarily a sign of narcissism; it isn’t necessarily saying other people are NOT important.
WOW This is my mother. She received both of these “diagnoses” a few years ago, as the only explanation for the selfish and crazy behavior my family and I witnessed my entire life. Even receiving the diagnosis did not encourage her to change, she just continued to blame everyone around her. Stay as far away from these people as possible. and never let them have your children.
Hahaha, here’s number 22: Does she wear a shirt with her own likeness, like Paris Hilton above?
Chili, that’s true. What’s significant is the shift over time. It used to be that young people would not say they were important unless they had achieved something noteworthy, and been celebrated in the community for it. An “important person” was the pillar of the community, had enormous influence and a strong track record. Today, 80% of young people feel special, but why? What is special about them?
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I’m not suggesting that people shouldn’t feel comfortable in their own skin. I think liking oneself is a prerequisite to a healthy relationship, in fact. But research shows that a large number of 20-somethings feel destined for greatness. From the Daily Beast article:
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In a nationally representative sample of 35,000 Americans, one out of 16 respondents registered as a narcissist on the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. These are people who agreed with statements like: “If I ruled the world it would be a much better place,” or, “I will never be satisfied until I get all that I deserve,” and, “I find it easy to manipulate people.”
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If it’s any consolation, the responsibility lies with parents, and with academics (and the ever helpful media) who pushed self-esteem curricula on schools. Most young people can keep perspective, with a healthy degree of self-respect. But there are always the outliers – and it seems that your generation of women has a pretty significant group who feels entitled and better than everyone else. I know several young women who fit this description – you probably do too.
Kylie, thanks so much for commenting. I know a couple of women who are mothers and are narcissists as well. Honestly, I have always felt for their children – they are emotionally cold and withholding. From an early age, one could observe their kids tentatively looking to them for approval and love, only to be met with seeming indifference. I am so very sorry that you had to endure life with a selfish mother.
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I’ve observed the husbands of these women – they fell in love with a narcissist – easy to do, and have spent their married lives trying to fill the holes their wives create in the family dynamic. Oddly, no matter how aloof and reticent these women are emotionally, I get the sense that their husbands remain very interested. Perhaps they are the ultimate challenge.
#23 Has she ever marketed a sex tape of her own?
Yikes. Some of the traits are congruent with high-achieving perfectionist women as well, though. Namely:
- She focuses attention on makeup and hair, even for the most mundane tasks or events.
- She is very competitive.
- She believes that she is intellectually superior to her peers (sometimes she is).
All of these used to apply to me when I worked in finance. Not anymore, but I think an environment of people like this can influence an individual negatively as well.
like all of these characteristics, the question of a motivation is rather important. Some women wear a lot of make up because they’re just incredibly girly; they do it for the same reason I have a lot of books.
. . .
Consider, therefore, a woman of my recent and unfortunate acquaintance: “I don’t wear make-up, *because* I’m *so* pretty that I don’t need it like other women. Thank God I’m so (*&#$*& attractive.” (She was cute/pretty but she couldn’t get anyone to pay her to take her picture.)
. . .
These people have an incredibly infectious personality. They’re almost snake charmers. It’s amazing how well even a cute 5-6 of 10 narcissist can get you around her little finger. This same “friend” chewed me out for not inviting her to a lunch I had. For a brief moment, I felt as if her complaints were justified until I realized that I can’t feasibly be expected to invite my entire social circle every time I have people over for food and drinks!
~P.J.L.
As they say ‘Danger Will Robinson!’ I’m going to quibble with the survey’s here and strongly suspect that this phenomenon is much more widely distributed than suspected. I really think this is approaching the saturation point in many populations. And almost everywhere, the media at large seems to feed it like a ravenous beast. It’s seemingly ‘naturally’ inculcated by most of the modern mass media & advertising as an artifact & essential purpose of ‘the sale’ of much of anything today. And therein lies the essential problem. What was once clearly seen as ‘dysfunction’ or just ‘poor manners’ & worse, is now regarded as being essential to even operate in the modern marketplace as a fully functional economic ‘actor’. Part & parcel of the problem that we commonly no longer regard ourselves as participatory ‘citizens’ united in a common purpose in a polity, but individualized units of ‘consumers’ all reaching out to ‘self-actualize’ their own desires, whatever they might be. Often regardless of consequences.
So I agree, part of the entire ‘hookup’ culture is (obviously) all about satisfying the often very selfish & heedless demands of female & male desires. That’s nothing much new. In the moment, going with whatever body looks swell & ‘doable’, just to see & ‘try on’. And it always takes some serious conscious thought to try and overcome this natural bias & impulse, and yet that’s being now reinforced from every media portal in creation, seemingly. And so we’ve got a snowball effect of concatenation & self reinforcing uncomprehending misery.
So again there’s an easier way of approaching the general problem. You won’t have to be confused with months of questioning yourself about various degrees of affliction & dysfunction here. It all or often comes down to their relationship to Media & how they consume it, and how much of it they allow themselves to consume & be consumed by it.
Questions that might be asked to discern this crucial relationship:
1.) Does he/she think it’s critically important to have all the latest styles, everywhere or as much as possible. (Hair, clothing, accessories, car, ‘lifestyle’, etc.)?
2.) Does he/she seem usually unnaturally self involved to the point where they are not listening to anyone much? (Critical follow on here: Do they have a Very important job/career that might demand this type of ‘concentration’ ?) [For a generally Non Media focused question].
3.) Look at what they’re reading. If it’s more than a few Tabloids a week & generally All the time? Not a especially good sign, unless in ‘the industry’ somehow.
4.) Look at what they focus their time upon. It’s not ‘self improvement’ but reading trash for trash sake? Never coming to any hard conclusions about ‘how to live or love a just life’, but just constantly carping about which celebs did what to whom; how so & so left her and how she cheated on him with this one or that one? Not an especially mature specimen there, OK?
5.) Following on from the above; Do they constantly talk about celebrities they may have never (or rarely) met as if they’re part of the family or ‘good friends’ even if (or especially) if only ‘Facebook friends’? Are their lives focused on meeting same or contacting same with little rhyme or reason to this (no business ventures or obvious need)? Then fantasy is not their only problem!
6.) What are their dreams & desires? If it’s focused on the future & some recognizable form of ‘peaceable’ family or home life? There’s some hope. If it’s filled with products, desired & dreamed & hoped for luxuries? Watch out!
But again & again, I say that our relationship with things is the tell here. Men & women who place more emphasis and focus more on relationships & people over things? They’re the ones to place the long term bets on for LTRs. Now this is not always a sure fire predictor, (a relatively impoverished childhood might prejudice you here). But it might be easier than doing psychoanalysis on the fly. All you’ve got to do is look, count & observe behavior w/o much interpretation needed. And it could save you a bundle on your next divorce!! Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
24: Has she EVER admitted cheating on anyone without expressing remorse?
Vera, you may have noticed that at the bottom of the post are Related Posts on HUS. There’s one entitled Crap! I’m a Narcissist that I wrote after I scored, ahem, rather highly on the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. I think you’re right that some of these behaviors are characteristic of smart, ambitious women, and do not indicate an unhealthy psychological profile or poor character.
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Obviously, the killers are lack of empathy, dishonesty, blaming others, exploiting others, lack of real friendships. In terms of physical appearance, I’d be on the lookout for any woman who is overly preoccupied with her appearance, seeking her reflection, making snapshots even more important than relating socially, etc.
PJL, I agree that motivation, and also context are important. I have to say, a woman in this cultural era who announces that she’s too attractive to need makeup is definitely sounding Narcissism alarms! The only women I ever hear say they wear nothing but a little mascara or lipstick are invariably supermodels.
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As for personality, you’re right. Interestingly, though not surprisingly, recent research has found that celebrities have high scores on the NPD inventory. We idolize famous people, and fantasize about being with them, but many of them probably have very little to offer in terms of real emotional intimacy. I suspect that anyone who could be a fly on the wall in the home of Angelina and Brad would not feel envious in the least.
Great addendum to the list. I’ll cosign everything you say here. Shallowness and stupidity, especially when purposefully cultivated are to be avoided in a mate, duh!
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Hannah Seligson ended her piece by suggesting a refresher course in Rousseau’s Social Contract, which led to my spending more than an hour reading it (this is where my day goes!). I loved the idea of including it here, but I didn’t really think it worked. I do think there’s something to the notion, though, of responsibility to fellow citizens. An idea of being “all in it together” rather than “every woman for herself.”
i put more blame on disney princesses. when our daughter was born, you wouldnt believe the amount of ultra pink princess stuff we received as gifts. it all went straight to the thrift store.
I see what you mean. Maybe this shift has something to do with the increasingly specialized world. You now are expected to finish not only high school and college, but many people feel compelled to get masters and even doctorates just to get a decent job. I would imagine after one finishes so many years of education, a certain sense of entitlement and importance may be present. I’m not saying all educated people are narcissists or vice versa, but this may be responsible for the giant shift.
Furthermore, those who have not yet finished these years of school may expect to do so in the future, and it is very easy to fancy oneself important if you think you are “destined for greatness” in a way, even if you never actually complete all those years of education. Education is one way to become a “pillar of your community.”
Before I even got to the end, I estimated the prevalence of female narcissists at 10%. The fraction of women showing many of those behavior is probably closer to 25% in my generation, but I wouldn’t call those narcissists. I wonder what the hell will become of these girls in 10-20 years.
I hate female narcissists but I’ll be honest that it feels like self-loathing.
Does she refer to her friends and co-workers as “my minions”?
It used to be that young people would not say they were important unless they had achieved something noteworthy, and been celebrated in the community for it….Today, 80% of young people feel special, but why? What is special about them?
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yeah….self-esteem in kids is over-rated and way over-emphasized.
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A while ago I was involved in the Big Brother / Big Sister program…the mother of my ‘little’ was convinced that his biggest problem was that he lacked self-esteem and confidence. The kid was fat, stupid, lazy, illiterate and un-hygenic. If anything his lack of self-esteem was his most redeeming quality, inasmuch as it reflected a modicum of self-awareness. His mother, nonetheless, constantly tried to reassure him that he was a precious little snow-flake. He’s probably doing time these days.
That’s an interesting point – when I think of insidious culture, I tend to think of celebrities, but Disney has most definitely played a role. On the other hand, I grew up with many of those same Disney fairy tales. I think in that era we understood that we would never be princesses – these were women from long ago and far away. We did play dress up, and every little girl loves a tutu and tiara, but we used what we could find around the house, borrowing our mothers’ shoes, etc. Today for $50 you can turn your daughter into Jasmine or Ariel. The role playing is too close to reality. BTW, it doesn’t help that whenever Disney releases a new movie, tons of Americans name their babies after the female princess character.
I think education does play a big role. Of course, there are plenty of entitled and selfish women who are not educated, but delaying emotional involvement until after your education is complete can’t be a good thing, in the sense that people aren’t really getting much practice in give-and-take relationships.
I agree – the 10% figure refers to full-blown NPD, but there are many women who meet some of these criteria. They’re not such good bets for relationships either.
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As for your final comment, you get credit for introspection
OMG! That’s unbelievable – rewarding a terrible attitude with assurances that the kid is special and should be treated as such. It raises an interesting question – the link between self-esteem and a personal sense of responsibility. My guess is for all her efforts, his sense of self-worth remained low because he never had the experience of effort followed by success.
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I do not understand how a mother whose child qualifies for BBBS would reinforce lazy behavior, coupled with obesity. Talk about the curse of low expectations.
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BTW, your involvement in that program signals good character. That’s money in the bank with women, after sexual attraction has been established.
25. Did she like Sex In The City 2
Reminds me of this clip…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSiB-sHXmCk
Indeed, this girl wasn’t a super model but she was *so* charming. And that, actually is my first & only red flag. If I immediately hit it off with a girl–if the attraction is instant, if she seems perfect–then I take a step back. You said above that these people are often the life of the party: I’ve learned, unfortunately, to force such people to prove their virtue to me. I’d be interested to hear your reaction to this (fair? unfair?) standard.
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“Women narcissists in their 30s and 40s who are unhappily single will generally blame their unpartnered state on being too independent, feisty, strong-minded, intimidating and intelligent for most men.”
This is my favorite genre in the dating world. The “I’m single because I’m *so* great.” I’ve been single for a long time for a number of reasons–one of them being my current mobility; but I know that among those reasons lie my own manifest imperfections. I realize I’m not the greatest catch I could be. How any one could utter this line has always shocked me. I wouldn’t believe it possible except I’ve actually heard it and worse.
This is horribly bad science, equivalent to East Anglia, and horribly bad assumptions and, in my humble opinion, a sign of scraping the bottom of the barrel for a topic to blog about … I certainly do not run into narcissism often at all … very, very seldom … male or female … by far most people have low self esteem and are very insecure … especially women … especially attractive women … in fact it is a refreshing rarity when I encounter anyone who has a semblance of healthy self esteem … finally a challenge … something is wrong with our culture because way too many people suffer from LSE, including, unless I miss my guess, you.
Not only do I think it’s fair for you to make someone prove their virtue or character to you before you get involved, I think it’s essential. That’s good strategy, and prevents you from investing in a shady deal. As a man, if you’re looking for a short-term thing it doesn’t matter much, as you are unlikely to don rose-colored glasses and succumb to the rush of oxytocin, haha. Women need to be careful from the first kiss, or even before. It can be very, very difficult to decipher both intent and character, as you know.
The movie He’s Just Not That Into You blew wide open the whole idea that guys don’t call because they are too intimidated. If that is ever true, it’s obviously not a good fit to begin with. It’s made a lot of women complacent, and given them an excuse to hide behind. Which is odd, because it obviously is a very ineffective way of getting into a relationship. But that’s the whole point about narcissism – no self-examination required.
You can have someone who is high-achieving, gorgeous, brilliant who is *not* narcissistic because they can empathize with other people. And you can have someone who is a total loser, not attractive, and frankly, not all that smart who is one. The real kicker of NPD is the lack of empathy.
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People who lack empathy truly don’t understand that other people have feelings. I mean, they know it logically, but they don’t *get it*. They have trouble reading other’s moods. They’re frequently confused when people act hurt, particularly if someone is hurt by something that *they* would not find not hurtful. Their attempts at comforting others are almost always falling flat, if they bother at all.
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Empathetic people may not always understand someone’s feelings (and in the case of real trauma, it may be impossible to really know what someone is going through), but they at least know that someone is hurting and they understand at a very basic level that another person’s pain is as valid as their own.
Dan, that is absolutely hilarious! And that raises a good point – I wrote this post for guys, but honestly, narcissistic women are the pits to deal with. That clip pretty much gets it exactly right.
In my experience the LSE people are attracted to the NPD people and vice versa. Perhaps you see all LSE people for a reason?
Perhaps
Although it may be because I am an inconsiderate, arrogant ass hole.
Hmmm, Robert, welcome. What an interesting comment. Some questions, if I may:
1.Why do you condemn the science? Is the sample size of 37,000 too small for you? Jean Twenge the lead author, is a respected psychologist from San Diego State, and has written a previous bestseller, Generation Me.
2. East Anglia was a deliberate suppression of data. Why do you claim that is the case here?
3. As far as scraping the bottom of the barrel for topics goes, I will mention that an early post on this blog, Are You Dating a Narcissist? is my second most-read post. It gets dozens of hits per day. Obviously, many people don’t consider narcissists an endangered species.
4. If it is true that most people have low self-esteem, I guess that is an even harsher judgment of the self-esteem movement in the last 40 years, which saw considerable educational resources dedicated to it.
5. Why do you find anyone with a semblance of healthy self-esteem a challenge? That is rather troubling, to be honest.
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Re my own shortcomings, I’m afraid they tend toward narcissism to be honest. Indeed, I write this blog because I believe the world can benefit from my great wisdom. In fact, if you don’t mind my saying so, I believe that if I ruled the world, it would be a much better place.
Women narcissists in their 30s and 40s who are unhappily single will generally blame their unpartnered state on being too independent, feisty, strong-minded, intimidating and intelligent for most men. They have little self-awareness.
HAHAH! Love it. 99 out of 100 times I’ve heard a woman say those things about herself, I’ve wanted to say, “No, you’re single because you are only sort-of good looking, you are selfish, loud, overly-aggressive, you’re a poser intellectual, and it seems to me that nobody can please you as well as you’d like to be pleased. Sorry, hon. No pussy is worth that much trouble.
I’ve found what I’ll call a subset of female narcissists. I call them the “unique and precious snowflakes.” They’re the girls who act however the hell they want, and if anybody criticizes them, they get a tongue lashing for not respecting everyone as a unique and wonderful person with their own quirks. In other words, they justify their narcissism by faulting other people for not recognizing how wonderful and unique they are.
Oh god.. my side hurts. Thank you, Aldonza. I honestly laughed aloud for several minutes.
My grandpa taught me to play poker when I was a kid. He told me, “Son… if you ever sit down at a table and don’t know who’s the sucker, get up and leave, cause you’re the sucker.” I always liked that saying. Maybe it works for narcissism, too. If you don’t know who the narcissist in the room is… it’s you.
Hahaha, that’s my favorite yet! I almost put a pic of those 4 in the post. Carrie and Samantha are clearly off the charts for NPD.
I agree with this. Total lack of empathy is the hallmark. Descriptions of NPD often say that the person wants to care, but doesn’t. For example, a narcissist can attend a funeral, understanding that sadness is “required.” They will behave as if they are sad, and may even shed tears. But the feelings are transient, they don’t change the person in any way, because they are not truly experienced. That’s why n.’s can act sorry and regretful when it can be proven they acted selfishly. Once they are forgiven, they shake off those feelings, learning nothing from the experience. That’s why they hurt the people who love them repeatedly.
I don’t know if this is a coincidence, but ever since I wrote about Sh*t My Dad Says, people have been sharing awesome advice from their male elders! I fear we’ve lost that in American society – the chances are high that Grandpa lives in another state, and that he’s much older than a generation ago.
Yes, I think there is an oversupply of snowflakes. They’ve got the same shelf life as any other woman, so if they can’t find a sucker, they’re headed for the discount bin.
This makes sense – the people who feel the least deserving will stick around and put up with a narcissist’s abuse. I do know one young couple, both incredibly self-absorbed. Everyone finds them intolerable, but the way I look at it, they’ve taken two narcissists off the market, and that’s excellent. I wish there were more NPD/NPD hookups!
Well thanks, and yes I agree. I am just glad that people are starting to recognize these as legitimate problems, at least the people hurt by these types have something to point a finger too. Narcissists have remarkable ability to make you feel like the crazy one!
“The only women I ever hear say they wear nothing but a little mascara or lipstick are invariably supermodels.”
Seriously? I don’t wear makeup and neither do any of my (female) friends. Many times it makes a woman look WORSE than better. Chemicals on your face? Yuck! And the all-organic natural stuff is to expensive.
A little olive oil or shea butter for moisture and I’m good to go.
I don’t think it’s coincidence. I think reading that site gets people thinking about the elders in their life, which naturally leads to remembering things they’ve said. And yeah, we’ve definitely lost some family unity in the U.S. If you think about it, if you’re living in Germany or France or Spain, you only have a big U.S. state’s worth of room to move away from your family. A couple hundred miles. Here, you can literally move half a world away. (Imagine moving from Maine to Hawaii.)
I think in this post we are talking about a lot of overt narcissism – obvious traits. However there is something key to this aspect and that is the value of the ‘image’ – the external image and how others perceive us – over the internal experience and how we feel inside – our ‘inner truth’ lets say. With a narcissist the image is all important – often at the expense of any feeling inside. That is what makes them very bad lovers – because they are not acting from true feelings – but from external superficial aspects…for instance a girl might pick a great looking guy because of the intrinsic social value that alignment gives her – as opposed to her true feelings for the depth of the guys character.
This type of narcissism can be very covert…
OK. Short and blunt. Oh well, not so short after all.
1. Global warming and the lipid hypothesis have turned me against “science” and “scientists” forever; reputation, best selling books and sample size notwithstanding Scientists are way too respected and completely untrustworthy. I don’t have time nor the inclination to dig up all the shortcomings and generally police the whole profession, but when I find something as blatant as your post, I can’t help myself.
2. East Anglia, Penn State, United Nations, NASA, Algore … where does it end? And intentional fraud is not necessarily better than incompetence.
3. Hey I understand. I may very well have narcissistic traits myself … but I don’t believe in false modesty … pardon me for being so blunt … had I known about your blog I would have read your post eagerly … you are eminently readable.
4. Yes. Along with our education system in general. Colleges now provide remedial English classes to teach incoming freshmen how to read and write. Perhaps that is why so few people are narcissistic and so many are LSE. I used to instruct at a local university. After completing my first semester I thought long and hard about the grades I gave. Though only a couple of people earned them, I eventually gave all A+’s and A’s, and one A-. I got in trouble for the A-.
5. Perhaps refreshing would be a better phrase.
Regarding your shortcomings … I like your obnoxious attitude. I think I’m falling in love.
Oh you charmer. While I imagine you have an ego the size of Texas, you’re smart and fun to talk with. I hope you’ll swing by again.
Robert sounds like my type. LOL!
It can be, and usually is, very covert. I think people need to be aware – asking themselves if the relationship is all about the other. As I said in the post, narcissists are often the most charming people, and even with a healthy skepticism you could be a couple of months in before realizing the person is going through the e-motions (groan, sorry for that terrible pun). All my advice seems to return to the same recommendation: take your time. Don’t give away your heart too quickly. Get to know someone inside and out. Observe their relationships, their response to difficulty. Are they there for you in a crisis? Or do they say call me when you’re freed up? Of course, this is easy to say, but let’s face it, most couples will be having sex before this stage. Which means we all have to manage the fallout as best we can….Still, men should be careful, especially good men. Narcissistic women have a way of finding the nice guys and turning them into a mess.
“Narcissistic women have a way of finding the nice guys and turning them into a mess.”
Any stats on that?
Keep in mind that for the diagnosis of Narcissistic personality disorder to be given, the person must meet a certain threshold of narcissistic behaviors and the person who gives the diagnosis looks at how the person is functioning.
You hit the nail on the head.
I hate narcisists, their ways, lies, shallowness, hurtfulness, judgemental ways, twisting logic, always arguing with too much emotion, rarely admitting guilt. Better to take one’s time with people. I never considered the idea of testing people’s character by asking favors or help, but that’s a hell of a good idea!!! Thanks. Keep up the good work. & the little mentioned thing is that sin nurtures narcisism and all of the qualities that bring misery. That’s just the way it is. Looks like God had it right all along
If nothing else, always be truthful. One cannot be an a-hole forever if he’s honest about everything, both to one’s self and when talking with others. Slow down, use logic, use reason, wait till the negative emotions pass, analyze, go over, consider all possibilities, develop the mind, develop the higher faculties, seek insight, wisdom, intelligence & be humble and wait for the insight to come from the higher power. Selfish N’s see whatever they want to see cause their world is one of lies and they are the only god of this delusion and everyone’s feelings dont matter because they are just the puppets in their play. Actually, many lying N’s enjoy hurting others & using them. They will get theirs eventually, and actually, just the N’s very existance, as an N, is torture & punishment in itself, did they only know what real beauty they were missing out on.
You know the first thing I thought about when I started reading this? Those beauty pageants for little kids and their “stage moms.” (Think: Jon-Benet Ramsey).
Talk about parental reinforcement of narcissistic tendencies!
True. A diagnosis of NPD only occurs in certain circumstances. First, the person must be in a position to be evaluated, usually via voluntary therapy. Obviously, many narcissists do not perceive the need for improvement, so most go undiagnosed. Second, many N’s are highly functional. Their charisma and charm serve them well in the professional sphere, and they are often socially dominant. It’s at the one-on-one level that they become problematic.
Wow! I’m impressed. That shows a definitive confidence and an ability to go your own way. I very rarely come across young women who go without makeup. Good for you.
Yeah, his defiance is sexy. Followed by an admission of faux vulnerability. What woman could resist?
Nah, that’s pure conjecture. Actually, I have observed this. Narcissistic women don’t do well with players. Players are not a good bet – they don’t give enough positive reinforcement. The narcissistic women I’ve known have a way of ferreting out the good looking beta guys. Honestly, they’re like black widow spiders. These poor guys don’t know what hit them until they’re miserably in love with a woman who will eat them for breakfast.
cch, welcome! I couldn’t agree more, and you raise an important point. What about parents who are narcissists? They see their children as extensions of themselves. I can’t imagine any other explanation for why a mother would promote her pre-pubescent daughter as a sexual being. I recently wrote a post about people who fit this profile:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/05/19/hookinguprealities/bonnie-fuller-enjoys-the-enticing-exploitation-of-little-girls/
An essay on what female narcissism has wrought:
http://fredoneverything.net/HookingUp.shtml
We had nothing to do with the current situation, Ladies…
I think that’s about the only explanation there is — these parents see their children as extensions of themselves. Or, perhaps more specifically, they see their children as their best (or only) opportunity to recapture their own youth. All of the things they were either denied by their own more strict and traditional parents, or things they never took the opportunity to do as youths despite strong desires, can now be experienced vicariously.
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The unfortunate part is that these parents are projecting behaviors onto children who are not developmentally ready to handle or appropriately understand the meaning behind what they are being asked/told to do. This forces them to come to conclusions that may be totally incorrect and may taint their worldview once they are at an age where these issues would normally come up and be dealt with in a healthy manner.
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Sadly, the question becomes what will result as these children age, and what effect will this have on the next generation of parents’ approach to raising THEIR children? Arguably, the whole phenomenon happening now could be termed a form of sexual and emotional abuse — both of which we all know are detrimental to development in the long run.
Not to mention the delectable and oh so aggrieved and petulant low rent idiocy. Just irresistible all around actually. Bet he’s almost employed too. Cheers, ‘VJ’
LOL, VJ, now you see why so many of us miserable. It’s that edgy petulance that gets us every time, even though it signals: GO AWAY! I AM DIFFICULT AND UNPLEASANT!
Difficult and unpleasant? Oh, that sounds exciting!
Despite the fact that old Fred there seems like a total maniac, that’s a very good writeup of the current mess we’re in. Women lost access to relationships, but gained other advantages. Men got access to easy sex, but they lost a lot of other things. It’s a colossal disaster all around.
what will result as these children age, and what effect will this have on the next generation of parents’ approach to raising THEIR children?
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That’s a powerful and troubling question. Much of what I write is for this young generation, navigating the minefield of contemporary relationships. We can only guess as to how they’ll approach parenting, but we already know that part of the reason kids hook up is that they’re jaded about relationships based on their own upbringing, and the high divorce rate. Now many of them are getting lots of practice at relating with zero intimacy. It’s not a very hopeful picture.
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Re parents living vicariously through their children, I think that is a huge factor. Since we didn’t grow up feeling special, we can bask in the reflection of our kids’ achievements. I’ve actually read that while mothers are generally in denial about their daughters’ sexual lives, fathers are often proud to have a player for a son. They see their sons’ success at pulling girls as the top of the pyramid for an adolescent boy.
“Men got access to easy sex.”
Alpha males got access to easy sex. Please always keep the 80/20 rule in mind, Ms. Walsh.
How did I know you were going to leave that comment? Yes, it’s true that some men got access to sex. As you’ve said yourself, only 60% ever reproduced to begin with. And as I’ve said, I’m not totally confident of that 80/20 split. Anyway, I’m responding to a link that PJay provided. Fred is on a tear, but he’s not qualifying his statement wrt alphas and betas. Why do you insist that I amend his argument to do so?
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The truth is, there are some women who won’t get male attention no matter what the sociosexual environment looks like. Others can attract men for sex but can’t keep them for any number of reasons. There are plenty of people missing out, both men and women.
“How did I know you were going to leave that comment?”
I know I’m becoming somewhat repetitive, Ms. Walsh, but consider this: you’ve advised others again and again not to make sweeping statements about either gender, yet you just did the same thing. What’s the point in glossing over such an important detail? It’s like saying “all women have easy access to male attention”. It’s blatantly false and I can imagine you’d correct anyone who said that.
“As you’ve said yourself, only 60% ever reproduced to begin with.”
I wasn’t the one who brought it to your attention, and the figure is actually 40%:
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
“Fred is on a tear, but he’s not qualifying his statement wrt alphas and betas. Why do you insist that I amend his argument to do so?”
I guess he’s an alpha himself and therefore the 80/20 rule never occured to him. You could have corrected that statement of his, because it is obviously untrue.
“There are plenty of people missing out, both men and women.”
Where did I disagree with that?
There are some regions of the U.S. (example: Colorado) where you’re automatically Paula Jones if you have on obvious makeup.
Interesting. The Ivory Soap girl look. Glad to hear it’s still around!
“As you’ve said yourself, only 60% ever reproduced to begin with. ”
I have been thinking about this. I did see that study a few years back and I can’t find it again, about a large percentage of men throughout history never reproduced. I figured polygamy and war were the biggest answers.
But after reading this blog a while, I got thinking. If women were evenly distributed, some of those men would HAVE to be paired with the ugly women.
I think the reason 60 percent or 40 percent or however many men never reproduced, is they could not bring themselves to have sex with an average to ugly woman and therefore chose to abstain.
Just kidding sort of. The article (I wish I could find it again) said that there is a time of high risk in a young man’s life where he knows it is make or break and a 19 year old male is completely willing to engage in high-risk behavior to prove himself one of the worthy. I believe war might be part of that (that’s what the article said.)
But after reading this blog I don’t believe men want sex to be evenly distributed. That would mean some guys would get the average girls…and I don’t believe that many guys would be willing to get with an average to ugly girl if she was the only girl he could get with. He’d rather sit it out … that’s what I think. Not everyone. A caller called Dan Savage not long ago and said his male co-workers were loudly complaining that there were no good-looking women, but they themselves were not good-looking. The caller said he himself was with a not so good-looking woman and they were happy. The caller to Dan Savage said “Look in the mirror.” Of course this applies to women as well, and I try to persuade my single women friends not to be too picky too.
Sorry about mixing up the % and source of the data re reproduction. OK, re the 80/20 rule. As I’ve said, I find it intuitively reasonable. And I’ve argued the point in several posts, so that women can understand that there are many guys out there that they are simply failing to notice. Assuming the 80/20 rule is valid, then we have a problem, which is: “How do we get the 80% of men access?” and “access to whom?”
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1. Game is a solution for some, but many will not be able to pull this off.
2. Women can be encouraged to be more assertive in approaching men, but this is an uphill climb, and they can’t approach men who are not out and about, mixing it up on campus.
3. I think Snowdrop is onto something re the expectations of beta guys. Just as a disproportionate number of women are gunning for alpha, I think a lot of guys think they deserve at least a 7. I hear this a lot in emails. Guys complain that they are really unhappy with the lack of sex, but don’t want to date a 5 or lower. It’s natural enough, I suppose, but not realistic. If they’re not getting any, they should perhaps lower their expectations, certainly while they work on getting comfortable relating to women.
4. I’ve talked before about the peer pressure issue – I have encouraged young women to go after shy guys, only to learn that the guy wants to “explore his options.” This is hardly surprising, as this is what he perceives a socially dominant male does.
Despite these reservations, I would be happy to give this issue more play if I can verify it somewhere other than a PUA site. If you have a link or two, shoot them to me and I’ll have a look.
“Despite these reservations, I would be happy to give this issue more play if I can verify it somewhere other than a PUA site. If you have a link or two, shoot them to me and I’ll have a look.”
I’ll just link an excellent comment from your site that cited statistics but was nevertheless ignored by your readers:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/10/02/hookinguprealities/stop-putting-out-for-alpha-asshats/comment-page-1/#comment-2667
I agree with every single word. Having said that, neither of us will probably find reliable evidence proving the 80/20 rule for the simple reason that neither young men nor young women are honest about their sex lives.
“Assuming the 80/20 rule is valid, then we have a problem, which is: “How do we get the 80% of men access?” and “access to whom?”
There was only one system that gave betas access to regular sex by essentially pairing them up with average women in marriage, and that is Western monogamous patriarchy. Having said that, betas do have access to pre-marital sex, it’s only that it is not regular and to less attractive women. After all, the 80/20 rule means that 20% of men get 80% of all the sex because they are the ones women find attractive; betas get the other 20%.
“Just as a disproportionate number of women are gunning for alpha, I think a lot of guys think they deserve at least a 7.”
That certainly happens. I guess it can mainly be explained by the popularity of online porn. But there is a huge difference, Ms. Walsh. A beta male who guns for hot girls will get summarily rejected 99 times out of 100 and consequently learns that he is aiming too high. On the other hand, an average 5 or 6 girl who puts out for the alphas will get lots of casual sex, which makes her exaggerate her own attractiveness and believe that she can snag an alpha. In other words, the average beta will have to face reality early in life; the average girl won’t. As Novaseeker has said, women are more sexually flexible than men are:
http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2010/06/generation-of-women-living-blind-to.html?showComment=1276916366058#c5370183161679280638
“Guys complain that they are really unhappy with the lack of sex, but don’t want to date a 5 or lower.”
I think that’s largely true. Novaseeker explained the reason here pretty well:
http://www.inmalafide.com/2009/12/02/novaseeker-explains-the-sexual-dystopia/comment-page-1/#comment-8424
I’m pretty sure the average 5 or 6 girl is 10 times more angry and frustrated if she has to pair up with a 5 or 6 guy and be sexually faithful to him than the average 5 or 6 guy who has no other option but to pair up with a 5 or 6 girl. Men aren’t hypergamous.
I live in NYC and I often see guys, who I would consider to be 9′s or 10′s and their spouses are oftentimes average. I have never gotten this. These guys could be with really hot women but their not. I just believe in dating at your own attractiveness level. As woman, I have often been criticized for saying this…whatever.
Susan,
Have you ever considered that a lot women today are commit phobic. I have been struggling with this for years. I think it goes undiagnosed in women because commitment phobia is usually associated with men or “a man thing”.
I would also like to add, that this could be the reason why so many women are single these days. As a (recovering) commitment phobic woman: I was extremely picky and had ridiculously high and unrealistic standards. This was unconscious behavior that worked to keep me from having to commit.
Yikes, an excellent comment ignored not only by readers but quickly forgotten by myself. HUS has come a long way since then. That does look like interesting data – I will peruse it and see what else I can dig up. If it comes together, I’ll dedicate a post to the 80/20 rule, how’s that?
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After all, the 80/20 rule means that 20% of men get 80% of all the sex because they are the ones women find attractive; betas get the other 20%.
You know I think this is a fallacious, or at least overly simplistic argument. I’ll repeat myself from recent thread:
I think any given woman may be attracted to 20% of the men she comes into contact with. But I don’t believe it’s the same 20% for all women. Some women can’t resist the bad boys, and love that dopamine high they get from them. Others are risk-averse and attracted to stable men. There’s a wide spectrum of what women find attractive. It’s true that a man has to generate sexual attraction, and the best way he can do that is by displaying his sense of self-worth. Assholes are good at that, but again, not all women respond well to arrogance. I know for a fact that it’s not about looks – there are many hideously ugly high T types who do well with women, and many handsome beta guys who don’t.
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A beta male who guns for hot girls will get summarily rejected 99 times out of 100 and consequently learns that he is aiming too high. On the other hand, an average 5 or 6 girl who puts out for the alphas will get lots of casual sex, which makes her exaggerate her own attractiveness and believe that she can snag an alpha.
This is very true, and it’s why I have talked about the potential usefulness of women policing other women. 9s and 10s are losing out big time right now – they would do well to shun those delusional 5s.
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Novaseeker is always brilliant, and his writing here is no exception. He is very good at laying out the problem in a clear and concise way. I was surprised though, to read that many men would rather forego sex and curl up with an xbox than mate with a 4 or 5. Do you agree with that? I always thought that men were first and foremost motivated to get sex, period.
Liza, I’m interested to hear more about commitment phobia in women. It’s not something I hear much, though I have read that women from divorced parents are more oriented toward casual sex. Perhaps this is related? Do you have a sense of where this comes from? What is it that you fear? Is it a self-protective measure born of past experience?
The 1-10 scale doesn’t really make sense for men, IMO. Nova mentioned in the link you provided that a 7 is a higher beta and a 6 is a regular beta. I don’t get that. Women select for numerous traits, one of which is looks. However, sexual attraction relies heavily on social dominance as well, hence Game. And for long-term mating, women seek evidence of a whole raft of positive character/provider traits. I have known extremely handsome men who would be considered beta because they are not high testosterone, and are heavy on the provider qualities. I have also known butt ugly men who do really, really well with women, based on attitude alone.
Susan,
Yes, I am a child of divorce. I am also free-spirited and very independent and my fear is that being in a relationship would limit me and I will lose my sense of self. Btw, I have always found casual sex to be really disgusting.
I recently read a really good book, “Kiss and Run”: The single picky and indecisive girl’s guide to overcoming her fear of commitment by Elina Furman. She explains that female commitment phobia goes undiagnosed because it is often associated with men.
Here are the top 10 signs you’re commitment-phobic woman:
1. You have a long and elaborate list of requirements for your ideal mate.
2. You go from one short-lived relationship to the next.
3. You have a habit of dating “unavailable” men.
4. You consider your married friends’ lives boring and think they settled for less.
5. You stay in relationships that are rocky and offer little hope of commitment.
6. You back out of plans at the last minute and have trouble setting a time for dates.
7. You cultivate large networks of friends at the expense of a single romantic relationship.
8. You have a lot of relationship trauma in your past.
9. Your career is very important to you and you often choose work over relationships.
10. You are constantly blowing “hot” and “cold” in your relationships.
Although, this behavior is often seen in men. It would also make sense that women who exhibit this kind of behavior are commitment phobic as well, right? As a woman, I exhibited ever behavior on this list.
Wow, that’s pretty interesting. You know what strikes me about this list? It’s pretty much the same list of “mistakes” that Lori Gottlieb wrote about in her book about settling, and other recent books about women looking for love in their 30s and 40s have also focused on these kinds of decisions/choices. I’ve always assumed that women make really poor decisions in following their sexual attractions – in other words, some women are so drawn to bad boys they wind up forfeiting their single years in pursuit of men who don’t do relationships. It sounds, though, like it could work the other way around – women who don’t want to commit, deliberately sabotage themselves by pursuing men who they know won’t ever force the issue. If that is true, and you are one of those women, then I’m glad to hear you struggle with it, meaning that you are trying to change it.
“If it comes together, I’ll dedicate a post to the 80/20 rule, how’s that?”
Sounds like a good idea.
“I was surprised though, to read that many men would rather forego sex and curl up with an xbox than mate with a 4 or 5. Do you agree with that? I always thought that men were first and foremost motivated to get sex, period.”
By and large, yes, but I guess there are multiple modern phenomena that mess up men’s biological programming in a huge way. Cheap and easily accessible pornography is one of them. Today the average 18-year-old guy has already seen lots of footage showing very hot, nubile women sucking balls/cocks, getting huge loads of jizz dumped on their faces and engaging in other mind-blowing sex acts. This will screw up his expectations about sex and make it more difficult for average and below average-looking real-life women to give him a boner. And he’s effectively off the dating market if he gets addicted to porn.
Video games, TV and other forms of entertainment drive his attention away from interactions with women in general. Add to this all the stuff we can read about the harmful effects of chemical pollution (decreased sperm counts, effemination, testicular athropy etc.) and it partially explains the huge mess on our hands.
At the end of the day, I think the strength of men’s sex drive is directly correlated to the extent to which they are sexually starved by society. 100 years the average guy couldn’t even see naked young women in pictures or in real life, let alone porn, unless he persuaded his girlfriend to undress after weeks/months of dating. I’ve read narratives about the foreign exchange students who were studying in Moscow during the ’60s and ’70s. They were quartered in all-male dormitories and had minimal opportunities to meet women. After one month they were debating whether the butt-ugly 60-year-old granny working in the campus cafeteria is a good kisser. Red Army soldiers routinely gang-raped even old grannies when they entered enemy territory in 1944/45, largely because they were sexually repressed. (Yes, there were many other factors at work but that’s a wholly different subject.)
All in all, if a young man is sexually repressed and has no access to casual sex, he will devote a lot of time to try courting girls and he won’t be too choosy. The current situation in the West is somewhat strange because beta males are in some ways sexually repressed but in other ways they aren’t. They are surrounded by hot girls who flaunt their sexuality to alphas but also have access to porn, lads’ mags etc. and they can masturbate a lot and generally slack. He also has a lot of opportunities to satisfy his male passions (video games, paintball fights, skateboarding etc.). I’d say the average Western guy today is maybe less sex-crazed than 50, 100 or 200 years ago.
Makes sense. The overall degradation of the culture to include daily porn, as well as soft porn on prime time TV and feature films has certainly changed from the time when women could turn a guy on by showing a bare ankle. Pics of Betty Grable’s legs kept lots of American men company during WWII.
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Where will it end? We’ve just about exhausted the supply of titillation. I know some predict the rise of the sex bot. Let’s hope not.
In all likelihood, the next big thing on the porn market will be 3D virtual reality technology, not sexbots. It will probably be much more titillating and addictice than online porn and therefore make the sexual marketplace even worse than today since not only creepy nerds but otherwise eligible betas will get hooked on it.
“In all likelihood, the next big thing on the porn market will be 3D virtual reality technology, not sexbots. It will probably be much more titillating and addictice than online porn and therefore make the sexual marketplace even worse than today since not only creepy nerds but otherwise eligible betas will get hooked on it.”
Bring it! The vibrator/dildo/artificial-sexual-stimulation-4-women market is a mutil-BILLION dollar industry. Imagine the possibilities of 3D TACTILE technology!!!! Applications that simulate dual nipple sucking while simulating clitoral oral stimulation AT THE SAME TIME????
How soon? How soon? We’re already saving a portion of monthly paychecks!
Does that mean “Girl Game” is learning to mimic the behaviors of a female narcissist?
Yes, but if you find a male narcissist who *prides* himself on being a good lover….
“I was surprised though, to read that many men would rather forego sex and curl up with an xbox than mate with a 4 or 5. Do you agree with that? I always thought that men were first and foremost motivated to get sex, period.”
It may be true, but I doubt it’s for the reasons discussed here and there. I think in a world without consequence, they probably would do it. But there are probably consequences at play that aren’t present with alphas pumping and dumping 6s and 7s.
First, the guys in that midpack aren’t typically as indifferent to the feelings of women as the alphas are (in a a sort of cyclical way, that’s part of the reason they aren’t alphas). So it’s harder for them to do that and be totally indifferent to the emotional fall out. Also, they may be more prone to bonding during sex (since they get much less of it), and don’t want to bond to a 3 or 4. Also, the 3s and 4s may be much more likely to melt down on them if they are used.
Second, there is no real damage to an alpha’s social proof when he pumps and dumps numerous 6s and 7s. For whatever reason, I think there would be significant reputational damage to a guy who is a 5-7 if he was doing that with 3s and 4s. By reputational damage, I mean he would appear much less attractive to higher value women by virtue of his association with those 3s and 4s, and other guys would mock him as too willing to go slumming.
But, in an anonymous world without consequence, he’d hit it.
And the Defense Rests, your honor. Cheers, ‘VJ’
Heh… synchronicity. Check out my newest blog post. I think the “Jam Effect” is one of the reasons for commitment-phobia in women (and in men, to some extent). In a nutshell, the Jam Effect works like this: We all want to be presented with as many options as possible. We believe that more choice means we’ll get more of what we want. But the reality is that too many options severely reduces our ability to make choices. One of the most common reactions to choice overload is not making any choice at all.
Sound like any women we know? They’ve had the chance to land any number of great guys, but when it comes down to it, they just feel like they’d be giving up too many other options (even options they don’t know about yet).
Another part of commitment-phobia that I’ve encountered is what I call “searching for the best bargain.” Some women (especially narcissists) want to find the best guy for whom they have to put out the least effort. After all, the relationship is all about the woman’s feelings, right? They find a great guy, but the idea of giving him what he wants in the long term is too scary. They think surely they can find a guy who has great qualities but won’t demand so much in return.
Hmmm… your comment thingy isn’t listing my latest post. Here’s the url. http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/the-jam-effect/
Well, that should mean a further decline in the marriage and birth rates, which quickly becomes an economic issue. It obviously already is a problem in Western Europe – with no solution in sight other than the use of immigrant labor and their generally higher birth rates.
Haha, Heather, this is a very salient point. Women are increasingly watching porn, and suffering the same twisted shift in expectations, by the way. Add in the toys, some 3D glasses and we can all just stay home on Saturday night. It’s like some freaky sci-fi flick. Haha, there will come a time when the good old Rabbit will seem as primitive as the first prehistoric tools.
I was waiting for someone worthy of appreciating my pointed and subtle humor.
Well, one form of Girl Game, I suppose, could amount to targeting a nice, good-looking beta and running roughshod over him. It definitely happens. Yes, I think you’re right – that is the female version of a player. She doesn’t care about him, uses him only for the positive reinforcement. Of course, the female player is not after sex, but rather wants to be put on a pedestal and obsessed over.
An emotionally healthy woman wants a relationship where she invests A LOT of effort, and is met with a similar effort on the part of her partner. She wants to be all about it, and to know that he is too. Women literally want to get drunk on their relationships – no effort is too large. If a woman is calculating the cost-benefit ratio early on? Bad, bad sign.
This strikes me as a very sensible and plausible explanation. The reputational damage concern has got to be huge. A young woman told me recently that she finally met the girlfriend of a good guy friend of hers. She didn’t know what to expect – sometimes it’s pretty awkward for the girl_friend to meet the girlfriend. In this case, she really liked her. She thought the new gf was funny, and cool, and attractive. So she said to the guy, “Dude, your girlfriend is so much cooler than you.” When I heard this I was horrified…how unkind! But he responded by saying, “I know! Right?” He was so pleased that his girl was well received. That raised his social status.
That was an eye opener for me. It makes perfect sense.
Just read your Jam Effect post, and I think this is right on. We worry so much about the opportunity cost of being in a relationship – if we’re halfwaying it with someone, we’ll miss Prince Charming when he shows up. I like your idea of establish the truly critical criteria for a mate.
I wanted to chime in on the commitment-phobia discussion up above, but it looks like the thread ran out of replies. I do think it’s a real phenomenon — I’d consider myself a commitment-phobe, for what it’s worth — and I think commitment-phobia might go further to explain the plight of the beta male than women’s supposed loathing of nice guys. Hamby’s explanation about the “Jam Effect” rings true to me – I’ve heard both men and women my age express reluctance to settle down for fear that the mythical “someone better” might come along. I’m not really trying to defend commitment-phobes, or say that I would be a great relationship prospect or anything like that. But I do think commitment phobia, or maybe just delayed maturity, in both genders, is out there and is something to pay attention to when you’re trying to get a sense of the modern dating scene. Just my .02.
Lisette, you’re the third woman on this thread to express this. I think that’s significant. I am going to think more about this and do some digging. The idea of the perfect mate, i.e. one’s soulmate – that’s a delusion and potentially quite harmful, in my view.
Oh, I agree. I think the idea of “The One” sounds very nice and romantic in theory, but I think it can lead to either dismissing good people too quickly (no spark, etc.) or, worse, holding onto a “relationship” that really isn’t right because you’ve convinced yourself that the other person is The One. I thought “(500) Days of Summer” was a good example of this (until the end, since both characters seem to meet their perfect match).
Isn’t total lack of empathy called psychopathy or sociopathy? I’m pretty sure those people don’t have feelings.
And there are regions where said “ivory soap girl” look will get people staring like you have a second head (coughLAcough). Even celebrities always have their face on there. And if you’re not 10 pounds underweight, you are automatically a 5/10 or below.
Yes, that’s why narcissists are sociopaths. Again, this refers to full-blown NPD, but there’s a spectrum.
I lived in LA from age 22 to 25. I have never felt so unattractive in my entire life. Absolutely brutal.
Hmmmm, a narcissist could have good technique, but without emotional intimacy the sex is never going to be mind-blowing, at least for me.
Hi Anonymous, I just came across a link that might apply to you and Liza. I’d be interested to hear what you both think:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judith-orloff-md/relationship-advice-relat_b_628549.html
Lisette,
Yes, you’re dead-on. The “someone better” might come along, has always been an issue for me. I can’t be involved with a guy without feeling like I’m settling and that there is a taller, hotter, more successful guy just around the corner.
The bad boy (Alpha) has always been a big draw for me because I know he won’t commit to me and I won’t to him, so it’s the perfect union. Nice guys (Betas) were to be avoided at all cost due to their desire for commit.
I didn’t say become a narcissist. I said “mimic”. A lot like Game is about adopting the social behaviors of an alpha (of whom share a good many traits with male narcissists).
Oh my. Could it be that people have emotional similarities irrespective of gender? Egads!
You got me there.
I lived in the south for college. Equally hard on the female ego. Those girls down there were born with mascara on.
I MEANT : Nice guys (Betas) were to be avoided at all cost due to their desire for commitment.
Funny. I’m on of those women who makeup looks BAD on for some reason. I lived in LA and never felt “un-attractive” or intimidated going around au naturale and casual.
Yup, totally been there. Takes one to know one and all that.
Oh, and Susan – for what it’s worth, I could definitely relate to the HuffPost article you posted for Liza & Anonymous up above.
… and that was intended for Liza’s response to my comment. I think this thread is overflowing!
Susan,
Thanks. Yes, I often feel suffocated by those around me; family, friends, and coworkers (except for my Maltese Gracie) and the thought of having to share my space with anyone terrify me sometimes. I always travel alone even when there are family members and friends, who are willing to travel with me. I wrote it off as me being a free-spirit. I just may be a “emotional empath” because the idea of having my own bathroom and bedroom with my partner sounds ideal to me.
I am also anon (forgot to type my name and email).
Haha, OK, glad to straighten that out. It makes sense to me intuitively that if some people have little or no empathy, there would be others who have an overwhelming amount of empathy. All of these emotions are on a spectrum. It sounds like in your case, it’s really important for you to have quite a bit of space. I would think most guys would prefer that by a mile over some needy or clingy woman.
Oh good Lisette, I’m glad you saw that link. I’ve just responded above.
Lucky you, you’re probably gorgeous! If nature blessed you, then you’re right not to muck it up with cosmetics.
HELP! I have a textbook narcissistic woman living in my home who has refused to move out for a year now! I can only assume it’s because I initiated the break up after a previous year of non-stop fighting, and she may see it as being defeated if she leaves. It’s insanity!!!!
If anyone has advice or websites for this particular problem please share. I’ve found many sites that describe the narcissist and how to leave them, but none that say how to get one out of the victim’s house.
Thanks in advance!
Whoa! I don’t mean to be glib or state the obvious, but have you considered taking legal action? Even calling the police? I think an argument could be made that she is an intruder. If it’s already been a year, you have presumably exhausted all strategies for getting her to leave voluntarily.
.
Of course, the simplest solution would be to put her belongings outside and change the locks.
Susan,
I have been sitting in a cubicle next to a textbook narcissistic (and I also believe a borderline personality) female at work for 5 years. We were cool at first and we use to talk a lot and we would hang out sometimes after work along with other coworkers. But, gradually she started exhibiting what I call “single white female” like behavior. She started dressing like me and wearing hair the same, competing with me in everything, wants my undivided attention at all times, becomes agitated whenever she sees me talking to anyone in the office or making personal phones calls. I can’t even talk about my dog. I have overheard her on the phone literally crying to her friends and family about how I’m sitting in my cubicle and not talking to her (there are times when I don’t want to talk, I have work to do).
Susan, I kid you not. This chick is completely psycho. I have requested to move to another cubicle but there are no other cubicles. So, I decided to just completely stop talking to her but her continues to fixate on me and is still doing everything I mentioned above, even though I haven’t said a word to her since December.
What a story. That actually does sound more like Borderline Personality Disorder – the extreme neediness, the terrible fear of abandonment. Seriously, it sounds like a form of stalking. Can you speak to HR about this? This woman’s mental stability seems questionable. It’s a wonder she has any friends. In any case, it’s hard to imagine that she is very productive at work!
Susan,
She is pretty high functioning at work. She actually has one bff and we have all hung out together on occasion (but no more). The bff is on Prozac I was told, so they are both psycho.
I am considering talking to HR about her behavior. Thanks.
10% of women are narcissists???? Hahahahahahaha. More like 90%!!
Whoa Chico! Good to see you. Actually, I said that 10% are diagnosable with NPD – that means they’re sociopaths, basically. I agree that there are many other women with naricissistic traits – that is why I wrote this post. However, I would realistically put the number at around a third. If you’re not meeting any women who don’t fit this description, you need to hang out somewhere new. Actually, I wrote that post with you in mind a while back -
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/05/15/hookinguprealities/57-ways-to-meet-the-love-of-your-life/
Hi Susan,
I did read that post earlier, but I’ve been really busy lately going through all kinds of drama with job changes and family visits…but in a good way. In fact, I’m moving in a couple days.
My lifestyle, stage of life, and interests don’t really introduce me to women. And it’s considered a bad idea to hit on co-workers or roommates. Most of my interests are things that only guys are interested in.
I wish I learned how to play women when I was younger, but it looks like I’ll have to revisit this aspect of my life later on in 2011 or 2012. The post-grad program I’m going into in September requires a lot of hours and minimal distractions. She’d have to be only around at my convenience and not give me any drama…don’t see that happening without money.
Regarding female narcissism, yes, most females are narcissistic. We are always being told that women are angels, made of sugar, spice, and everything nice. Men are liars, cheaters, pigs, and insensitive. We’re told that we should respect women. Most of the female population takes this to heart and honestly believes that they are inherently special, even though they give nothing in return and lack a moral code of their own (men have a man code). I personally believe that respect needs to be earned. Men (especially beta males) are partly to blame because they give these attention whores the self-validation they’re looking for.
I’m a little late to this thread but have to say it is refreshing to see that it’s not always men who display NP traits and/or full blown NPD. The woman I dated for 2.5 years (38 years old) has no job, no kids, no mortgage/car payment (mom & dad buy everything) wears $1200 Christian LeBoutan heels every night (ladies you know this shoe), travels at least 7-10 times a year and celebrated her birthday “month” not actual “day.” She had so many traits that clued me in that something wasn’t quite right but I was so enamored with her looks/sex I just chose to ignore it. In the aftermath and having been dumped 4x by her during this courtship so she could go date the world, I was at least comforted to know that her ‘oddities’ were an actual disorder – NPD. And this has revealed to me that there is nothing I could have done – there is absolutely no helping/saving these people. Do as they author suggests and do NOT FALL into the web of this black spider. It is a VERY ROUGH road out of HELL.
Clay, welcome and thanks for sharing your comment. Honestly, I feel like it’s just terrible luck when someone gets involved with a narcissist. I’m glad you got out. Don’t ever go back to her!
Hi. My name is Jerry. I was just dumped out of a 7 yr relationship w/a girl that I now believe is narcissitic. It all started when she was still married to her first husband of 12 yrs. We started flirtatious talking etc 6 months b/f we ever slept together which occurred about a month and ahalf b/f she left him. She always accused him of being narcissitic. I dhould have ran from her the n b/c she did admit to looking for someone else while she was still married and living with this guy. They supposedly wentt o couples counseling and took personality tests. Supposedly he scored way off the chart in the narcissitic category. Who knows what to believe now. When she left him there was alot of turmoil b/t the 2 of them. she quickly consumed me with her probs. There wasnt much focus on what was going on in my life. I immediately began to pick up and drop off her children from preschool. You have to remember I lived an hour and ahalf away. I dropped of in the morn and was back there by 530 to get them. She has a very charming charismatic voice that made me melt the first time i ever spoke to her. “she had me from hello.” I think we all know that Tom Cruise Renzellweger movie!!! We used to joke about it alot. The beginning was bumpy. She decided she needed to date other people for a while. It drove me nuts. Iwas so in love w/her. I knocked on her door one night (late) to tell her I love you plz stop this nonsense. she agreed and when he left we made love all night. but by monday she wouldnt stop seeing this guy. It took another week of agony b/f she agrred to date me. (We talked early on thatif we were going to be togther that this would be permanent. It was a mutual agreement. Then the time off to date others.) We got back together. Shortly there after we had a wekend planned at the beach. She called and told me she need to go to her moms to get away the day we were supposedto leave for our trip. To this day I question if that is really where she went. I didnt then b/c I loved her and sadly still do very much!!! She returned from the beach to tell me all was okay and that we would be fine together….dictating our existence together. That was the same weekend as father’s day. She and her 2 little girls then 4 & 6 had a father’s day card for me. I can still see the card and that we were sitting in the kids bedroom when I opened up the card. I sobbed profusely b/c I finally had what I ve always wanted….a family and a beautiful one at that. Fast forward…She lived 1 1/2 hrs away. We wanted to be closer she wantedto live in a new place. I helped her get her current job at PPD. She got an apt 2 miles away. I moved her up here. She lived in her apt for 1 yr. then we decided to live together nowing we were going to get married. We got engaged summer of 2005. I took the kids w/me to pick out her ring, they gave their blessing to marry mommy, I even gave dear old dad a call, and when I proposed she had her 2 children on either side of her. How storybook can you get!!!!
They moved into my home. I told her to decorate it how ever she wanted to. She picked outthe paint carpet new pictures etc. I did everything she asked b/c i loved her and wanted her to feel like this was her home. She brought in all of her furniture w/the exception of one bed room suite that my mother gave her youngest daughter. At first we saved all of my old furniture b/c we wanted a place on one of the local lakes. At some point she began to make fun of me for wanting to hang on to my furniture for the lake place. She often said that I was afraid she was going to leave me. I never gave it any thought. Then we decided to have a yard sale. I sold everything. I was unaware of any NPD probs in the rel. at this point I didnt know what to look for etc. As look back now I can see plenty of the signs. I gave up a 50k per year job for her b/c I was selling ins at night and I didnt want to miss out on the kids growing up. I was calling from the road and telling them good night. not the kind of dad I want to be. We decided that I would finish a pharmacy degree I started yrs b/f I even knew her and the kids. It would be 3 yrs with summers off. Maybe I should have said no…not sure it would have made a diff.I school full time in sept 2007. By oct 2008 she got very sick…Mono followed immed. by shingles, severe vit d def. Possibly chronifc fatigue and fibromyalgia. At this point I am in the middle of a 3rd yr dr of pharm grad program. I know my priorities are her and the 2 children. I took care of alll three of them first . Meds for her helping her change clothes and get walk to the shower and bathroom. keep up the house. Feed, bathe, hw, teacher mtgs, and cheerleading practices. and oh yea we ate dinner to and I got the kids on and off the bus each day. I did manage to call in her work for her on mos days until she went on dis. This lasted for months. She would sleep 48 to 60 hrs and then waake uo and raise hell w/me b/c a GD thing hadnt been done and i was of no supp to her and herkids while she was trying to get better. I never once got a thank you for what I did. She never really told me what she needed done. when she did get up she was doing things like scrap booking?!?!!! There was a time (dec 2008) when I was sick. sheand I have the same phys. I mentioned to him thatI was worried about her getting enough rest….up for 2-3 days w/o sleep and then down for 2-3 days. He asked me to have her call b/c he was concerned about bipolar issues and she had told him that their was a family hist. that started in the late 30s early 40s. Once when she was “out” asleep b/c of being sick I made a short term loan from my mother just to get us through. See she had said bills and money were stressing her nad making her worse. so when I eventually told her she was MAD. I had chosen mommy over her . I was just doing what it took to get by.
FFWD to april of 2008. her condescending badgering had gotten so bad that I left for a few days to let calmer heads prevail. I was just tired of my self-esteem being derailed. 2 days later she called me to come home..so i did. she used her charm on the phone and her passionate sex w/me when i got home. we talked a few mins. and all was well right???
Unknowingly she was plotting to buy a house w/o me knowing it and talking to her awful exhusband about doing the closing (dissbarred…hang on). The day b/f my 41st b-day (july 16) she tellls me she is leaving. she has bought a house and is taking the kids and leaving and the closing isnt until Aug 8 and they will be staying with me until then. I was devastated. Here is the narcissitic reasoning….and I started hearingthis when my phys approached her about being bi polar. she knew i had mentionedto him that I was concerned.
She started then on her path to destroy me. It has worked. No one hasstoppedto think what about Jerry and trying to get this pharmacy degree so he can take care of the family. B/f the house purchase I was thrown out of school. with only the outside hope ofan appeal. She never stopped to say i am sorry about school. Dont worry about me and the kids and getting married. we are here for you….nothing. What I got was u are so volatile and unpredictale amd anything makes you mad….yea I cant figure out how I am going to take of you and be able to marry you. She never said thanks for takeing care of me while I was sick. I know it interferred w/school and u had a lot on u. I know you failed some classes but dont worry i am here to do what ever it takes to get us through this. we can work together. Instead she told everyne around us i needed “help.” told her dad she was worried about my fianancial pos. and all of my school loans. we were in this together!!! So I let them stay until Aug (2009). in the mean time we talked and got re-engaged and I was going to move there w/them w/in 6 to 9 months. That never came to pass. when she got to the new house she took off her ring and never put it back on. She stated she felt like I was treating her like a piece of property. I asked her did she think of me and how i was feeling….hurt insecure???She just stared at me w/a blank stare. After she was gone she kept trying to dictate what went on in my house. She demaned I come over to her house all of the time. and if i had something to do at home she said I didnt want to come over and when I got there I was looking for excuses to leave. This was all part of her plan to get revenge on me for asking the doctor about her not restng when she was sick. She thought I wantedto make everyone around us think she is crazy. She told her ex husband that was why she wanted to move from me. She had told me and other s she was afraid…why not leave then??? why not call the police if i had gotten so frightenly angry??? What I now see is a person that was suffering narcissitc injury. and this was her way of dealing with it. When her daughter got brain cancer she cut me out of all of the treatments. i never went once. when her parents came to help and stayed she never acknowledged my existence except the wekends they were gone. Little did I know she was in the beginning stages of a new reltionship that began where…on the faacebook. This I am certain started in June. She should have told me then.
REV back a little…after she had left my house she decided that i was being unfaithful to her. i never was. one night about 130am she sneaked in my front door and tore up my house beat the hell out of me amd found no one here. I promise i was faithful to her. That was okay for her to do….she never apologized. An old girlfriend from 15 yrs ago sent an email to me. herson had died suddenly and I knew him. we talked back and forth via emai adnd she looked up my address wanting ot know how to get here. i never saw the emails. My ex found them and rightfully so was up set.
so when i caught her lying to me i made a scene and got a restraining order put on me.
She yoyoed me from the time she left my house until 8-4-2010. on again off again. I loved her and her so much that i fell for it. I just didnt know she had started another relationship. She tried to end it but i showed up on a sunday (7-18-2010)to take her to church. she let me come in and stay all day. I help her change her clothes b/c she was so sick that sunday. the next 3 days were great but by thursday (7-22-2010) she was angry. She had said to me she needed to focus on the kids and her and getting things straight in her life. i said okay. the wole time she is seeing this other guy. on sat (7-24) she asked me to come over to look at the dog. something was wrong. I went. I ended up staying longer than I should. We ate together, we kissed passionately all day, I went and got the kids ice cream etc. functionon justlike a normal couple would. Itrie to leave to no avail. she kept me hanging around and hanging on….we eventually made love later that evening. during the process i knew something wasnt right…I knew someone else “had been there.” but i kept thinking it was just me b/c i trusted her. I left later that evening. The next day (7-25) I asked about the movie something simple. lets ease back int o this and try to avoidthe same probs we had before. she said she needed to talkto the kids..idont think she ever did. when i got upset and hurt my foot she came over. she sat w/an ice pack on my foot and her head on lap while i rubbed her hair. her fav. thing for me to do. we started to talk and she told me that if I wanted my family back to prove it. knowing the whole time she has been sleeping w/someone else (the person resp for telling on her children’s dad andcausing him to go to jail….how trashy b/c she is losing all child support and cant keep her house). She tells me the first step in the process of gettingback together is me going to see a cunselor b/c she thinkd im bipolar, borderline personality disorder, anger issues etc….i am basically crazy.
She goes to the first meeting and tells the counselor we arent together but she is going to be involved in the first 4-6 weeks of meetings. counselor runs her out. the next day on thurs (7-29) i stop by to ask her if there is anyone else involved and she says no. The next day she leaves for the beach w/him….confirmed by her and her ex hub. so all along im thinking she needstime for her life and i will getting done w/school. will we see other people?? she acted like she didnt want me to. so i thought it was only fair that she didnt. the weekend passed and I noticed she was gone. I figured to her mom’s b/c i just knew she was hurting.
the last time I had seen her she was alittle mad but i gave her the life ins policy that is on my life and she is the beneficiary of. So much to my surprise on tues 8-3-10 ifound an strange car a her house. I made a scene that involved the PD. I caught her in a lie,. caught herat her game. Narcissitic injury…..HUGE…..shame has set in!!! of course i told evetyone we knew incl. her ex inlaws that adore their grand children. THere was an rest order placed on me….fne but the bitch decided on the 3 diff occassionsto try and harrass me. it is becuse I caught her in her lies and games and she is tryng to figure out what to do to get me back. She even tried to “poke” me in the courtroom last thurs 8-12-10….looking at me and talking loudly about the kids after shesat down behind me. she called my neighbors to tell them just enough to aggravate me. told one neighbor…”see how he acted that is why needs counseling and I had to gethim there. the only way he would go is if i would take him.”She was/is tryin to make me look crazy to justify her infidelity. I also believe she wanted to keep giving me just enough hope to hang around.
That is all bullshit. she told my neighbor they werent sleepeing together…she didnt tell him how long she had been seeing this guy and that we slept together the weekend b/f she went to the beach w/him)and she cant b/c then she will have been lying to him. she is w/him b/c he has control of a piece of property that she can get $ from when it sells and he is taking her diff places. one of the reasons she left me…i couldnt do that b/c I am still in school. well I took care of her sick ass and her kids while I was in school causing me to fail. i should have grad. 5-2010.
I had a place picked out to take her to get married when I was done..Tybie Island Ga. It was going to be a surprise??? I did try to throw her a surprise b/d party one time and she got mad. What do you think of that???
She has been gone the weekend w/him. now she is back in town later this pm. I know she is going to try to harrass me and push me over the edge b/c she wants this life policy benefit. forthe record she has a habdgun. I am afraid of the narcissitic ragwe that is about to be unleashed on me. see new guy heard me talk about she and I sleeping together the weekend he took her to the beach. Everyone around knows incl the minister and my phys. I neededto tested for STDs and I needed someoneto talk to. The minister’s rxn told me she lied to him.She even told him about the rest. order….what was the purpose of tha but to make me look crazy. Went and apologized or me causing a scene at the drs office. never caused a scene there. Again trying to make me look crazy.
here are some of the charac. she has exhibited…everything is alwasys about her , no empathy, dishonest,blames others for eveerything, exploits others, and has no real friendships….she talks bad about all of her friends and has even abandoned a couple. See the pattern of narcissitic rage…trying to get him back!!!
I am out i actually cut myself out b/c she was trying to keep me hanging on and I caught her. and I said go to hell!!!!
Alot of typing BUT you all have this type of behavior.
To top it all off she is very OCD. Not the door checking kind but the getit on my maund and it stays for months. she also starting to get paranoid.
HELP HELP!!!
I coud be doomed!!!!
Here’s another trait for the list:
26. She has her own blog. (ha ha – but seriously)
It shouldn’t be surprising that some of the traits correlate with high achievement. Isn’t the prevalence of narcissism and womanizing higher amongst high achieving males too?
Anyone who’s worked at a big law firm should be well aware that this applies to both men and women.
@Right Win Nut Bar
You’re so right! I wrote a follow up post to this, where I revealed my own score on the NPD diagnostic test (very high!). Perhaps it takes one to write about it….
I fell in love with a woman (still am) with many of these characteristics.
She is never married and 45 years old, lives with her brother just a block from mom (77). She worked 60+ hours a week, had lots of public accolades, very smart, very polished, extremely poised in even the most difficult business/organizational situations. Everyone admires and loves her. Vey polished. Good looking. Lots of energy. Never a negative statement. Complimentary. Worked hard. Did “the dirty work” but always got the job done. Great sense of humor. Charming. Sexy. I fell for her like a ton of bricks. I went all in. As a client, we didn’t make it to the “boy friend girl friend” status quite yet.
Then the phone calls became returned more and more “too busy”. Personal emails were not returned “I’m not an Email person.” Dates were broken at last minute. Never permitted me to pick her up at her house “I’ll meet you there.” Never a phone call taken in the evening “to chat”. Never a Saturday date “too busy”. We only kissed twice.
We had incredible fun times and we really connected on the chemistry level both ways (her and I). She enjoyed my company. She REALLY like my unbridled enthusiasm for her and her work ethic and accomplishments.
Her plate was “too full” all the time. She really had no close girl friends (“they can’t be trusted”) and had at least one “tag-along” submissive older male who arranged to be at many public events with her as possible. She treats him poorly but has kept him in tow for years.
After she cancelled our New Year’s date (once she landed a new job), promised a make good date… 6 days latershe didn’t answer my phone call…. I finally exploded and told her “if she wanted a doormat she needs to find another guy.”
When we got together 6 months later she told me she needed a man to put her in a house and pay all the bills. We were done.
Very painful for me. A year later I still think of her every day. Guess I am as ill as she is. Her narcisism is horrible and I do believe that she will never be able to acknowledge it, She is hyer-sensitive to criticism and blames others (and me) for problems and poor attitudes. She has trouble sleeping at night.
Its so sad as I still see a whole universe inside her that will never see the light of day unless she learns to reflect on herself and does some personal work.
But I still love her, knowing all of the above. This is called, I think, male insanity.
Chris,
I am so sorry that is a truly terrible story. I don’t know what to say – I won’t tell you that you’re insane because you can’t help what you feel. You’re not alone – people struggle mightily to get over narcissists. They are truly like an addiction. With support, you can do the personal work that will enable you to give yourself closure (she will never offer that) and move on with your life.
Just curious, why won’t a narcissists offer closure?
P.S. Have been working this with a therapist for the past year. She always called my “non-relationship” an addiction. I had a hard time accepting that …as (to this day) I know there was a very genuine connection… but her fear of intamacy and/or her inability to express or experience genuine emotions were the core reasons she failed to take the relationship to the next level. Today was her 45th birthday which we always did something special. So naturally, this “trigger date” brought all the emotions, broken dreams, hurt feelings back to the surface, just as if it were yesterday. It’s almost embarrassing. It is so difficult as I know my emotions are my responsibility, not hers.
Wow, what a great article. My mom is a female narcissist, and I’m thinking she has Histrionic Personality Disorder too. She wasn’t aloof with me, though. When I behaved the way she wanted me to, she was affectionate. But any show of defiance or even individuality on my part was discouraged and punished. No tolerance for criticism, no introspection. But she wasn’t spoiled growing up. Her parents were cold and unforgiving and even abusive; hard to know exactly, though, because I know now she told me many, many lies about herself over the years. I really don’t believe my mother was treated as a “special snowflake” type. In fact, she never really bonded with her parents; I’ve read that was once viewed as a cause of psychopathy, but at least one expert on that subject thinks it might be a *symptom* rather than a cause.
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One of her most appalling shows of a lack of empathy happened when I was about 14 and I happened to be in her office at work…had gotten out of high school early or something. A young temp in the office across the hall started loudly crying after receiving a phone call. The temp hung up and of course her office mates asked her what was wrong. She sobbed back (loudly enough so my mother and I could hear her) that her mother had just called to tell her that her father had been in a terrible car accident, was in the hospital and in the ICU, but the doctors said he probably wouldn’t survive. The temp continued to sob loudly as she got ready to rush to the hospital. My mother got a look of disgust on her face and said to me, “What’s with all that fuss over her father? If it was her mother, maybe I could understand the reaction. “
@Puffs Plus
I’m sorry, that’s a terrible story. Growing up with her must have been very, very difficult. I do think that being ignored or feeling unloved as a child can lead to narcissism just as easily as being spoiled can. In fact, for many years, the prevailing theory about NPD was that it is caused by childhood trauma or damage. I’m glad you didn’t succumb to the same fate.
Oh, shi–
I just got out of a relationship with a Narcissistic female – all the classic signs. She was “perfect” while we were dating, only to turn cold, distant, and unfeeling once we broke up. She had also been cheating on my emotionally and physically for months (we dated for a year and she cheated for 7 months of it).Once we broke up, she moved on in days, and dropped me like a bad habit.
Of course, I had no idea she had cheated and I was trying to still be friends at least – I’ve known her for over 5 years. However, she had so done a “180″ that she wouldn’t even take responsbility for cheating on me with two guys. Everything was “my fault” by that point. As I’ve discovered more and more, I realize she’s surrounded with enablers that all knew she was cheating and didn’t say a word to me.
I know popular wisdom says that to “get back” at a NPD, you should just ignore them and move on. However, I couldn’t let it rest, knowing that she was telling everyone what a terrible guy I was and how everything was my fault. So, I sent out a very calmly worded email explaining exactly what happened (with proof) to all the guys she cheated on me with, and BCCed her mom, her brother, her co-workers, and all of our mutual friends. May not have been wise, but it certainly made me feel better.
What helps also is I might be leaving the country soon for a job offer – I’ve read that NPDs tend to try and revisit their victims after some time has passed to get more of that Narcissistic supply they crave by stirring up old feelings. Unfortunately for her, I’m pretty observant and pretty emotionally mature – I ended it with her as soon as I caught her in the first lie. She’s a non-person to me, at this point. The girl I thought I loved was just a character she was playing to keep me around while she ran around and slept with whoever gave her the slightest attention, lying to me and keeping me in the dark the whole time.
The best advice I can give someone that’s been mistreated by a NPD is – remain calm, show no emotion, gather your evidence, and methodically (and legally) shred their reputation with both their old and new “crowds”. NPDs HATE to be exposed for what they really are – petty, vengeful, angry people with no empathy or understanding of other human beings. Don’t be afraid of exposing her to family and friends, but only if you have rock-solid proof (for example, finding texts between her and someone she’s cheating with…) When you present your case, don’t waffle or back off. Your goal is to confront and utterly shatter – even if its only temporary – the person’s fantasy world by overloading them on negative feedback from friends and family. So what if they lash out or pull the silent treatment? They never cared about you, you should not care about them. Treat them as the enemy, because that is now how they think of you.
Also, make sure you don’t go overboard or do anything overly unique (IE putting her picture on a billboard or something equally public). The NPD can use this to their advantage – they love attention, even negative attention, because it’s a chance for them to play the martyr and recieve more Supply from their enablers.
It can be done, as long as you remember that the person you are now dealing with is an enemy and a stranger. That person you thought you loved was a complete sham – a reflection of what she thought you wanted her to be. Good luck.
@coverfield
I’m not worried about you – it sounds like you have coped very well with your narcissist. BCC’ing friends and family seems harsh, but I won’t judge, because I know how a narcissist can make one’s life pure hell. You feel desperate to hold them accountable, especially if they continue to insist that they have done nothing wrong, that the fault is yours, etc. In any case, I’m glad you are done with her. Some people find it impossible to leave narcissists – they can be addictive.
Awesome article. I was wondering about a woman I recently met. There is an attraction, she has had breast augmentation, and is preoccupied with her looks. But she also was in an abusive relationship before, so maybe this could possibly explain some of her behavior. She has disclosed that she has dated married men, would this show her lack of emotional availability?
@CADC09
Depending on where you are from, preoccupation with one’s looks can be pretty typical. LA, for example. I guess I would want to understand why she had her breasts enhanced. Did she go from flat to average? Or did she feel the need to go from average to enormous?
I will say that I believe dating married men is a major red flag. I’m not sure if it means she’s emotionally unavailable, afraid of commitment or just a masochist. But it says something about her character. Proceed with extreme caution.
I don’t think I’ve seen much written re: female narcissism before. What an interesting article and thread… thanks!
My “2-cents” here is that having been formerly married to a clinically diagnosed NPD (with BPD, Histrionic & ADD “co-morbidities”), I feel like I’ve acquired a certain “intuitive” sense for what they’re about, along with antennae for detecting many of the “red flags”. And one strong “clue” that I haven’t really seen documented, seems to be the folks (especially women) who treat their pets (usually dogs) like “people” (“my child, best friend”, etc.). And when you get to know them, not surprisingly you usually do start to see all the other “endearing” symptoms crop up (the self-absorption, entitlement, grandiosity, lack of empathy, strong need for control, hyper-defensiveness, etc.). So it’s not that they really love the pet, so much as they love how it serves their needs and how it makes them feel.
But when you think about it, just like a dependent child, a submissive pet not only becomes the perfect “recipient” for all those narcissistic symptoms, it’s also a constant and ideal source of “narcissistic supply”, as well as an easy & uncomplaining opportunity for their other famous “talent”, that of “projecting” all the disassociated parts of themselves onto others (“oh, he’s so smart, strong, brave, always glad to see me, really understands me, etc., etc.”)!
BTW, I agree they don’t much care for “closure”, although it’s not difficult to understand the sense of “control” that avoiding it continues to provide them. Hey, we were “useful” once before, right?! ;-p
@Ming
Great insight on pets there – I have never heard that but it makes perfect sense as a source of unconditional worship and adoration.
I would also add to that unbelievably petty and stands for no set of values beyond maintaining her own image and impressing her friends. Also, that she has poisonous contempt toward anyone, anything, etc., with that contempt rooted more in knee-jerk petty personal distaste, as opposed to the sober-minded rational thought process (in short, she’s an image bigot).
Susan… while there’s no question that Narcissists can be a “dangerous” breed, I think one of the things that’s important to point out when dealing with “N’s”, is that like the old folklore about “vampires” (both physical and psychic), for them to become a threat, we have to first let them “in”. Which usually means allowing them to ignore our “boundaries” (and often seems to be their first “tip-off”)! So in a curious way, I don’t begrudge them and their plight is really a tragic one, when you think about it, as they never “asked” to be who (and what) they are. Still,I think they are a sort of human “predator”, that one needs to know how to watch for out in the daily “jungle”!
@CADC09: I agree with Susan, you need the be really cautious here. Bear in mind that most narcisstic women are Hollywood-class actors and skilled liars. It might actually be that she was the abuser in her previous relationship. As for dating married men, this certainly not an admirable trait and a possible sign of a golddigger.
I suggest that you head over to Dr. T’s blog http://www.shrink4men.com/index/ and read “13 Signs your Girlfriend or Wife is a Borderline or a Narcissist” (January 2009) and “15 Warning Signs She’s a Psycho Chick” (February 2009).
@Ming: I agree, we have to “let them in” before they become abusive. But two of their tactics are (1) love-bombing, which can go on for months, and they’re on their very best behaviour the whole time – until they move in with you or otherwise feel that they have you under control, and (2) the “slowly boiling the frog” trick, where they erode your boundaries so slowly and carefully that you don’t realize it’s happening. I’m quite good at holding my ground regarding boundaries, yet I’ve been there and had both done to me. Some of these women are exceptionally clever, and if you’ve been well brought up and haven’t actually experienced a relationship with a disordered woman, you just don’t know what to look for. There’s a lot of material on Dr. T’s site that can help you recognize the early warning signs in a relationship.
@Chris and Susan, back in late September 2010, regarding closure. I think the main reason that narcissists don’t care much for closure is that it just doesn’t matter to them; they’re already gone and feeding off someone else. Since they have little or no empathy and closure doesn’t matter to them, it never even occurs to them that it might matter to you.
My ex-N had a bizarre characteristic that I never figured out until I began studying NPD. Early on, when I asked her why she divorced her ex-husband, she said that “my feelings towards him changed.” Overnight, just like that. I don’t know what these twisted women feel towards their partners, but it certainly isn’t love.
As Sandy Hotchkiss wrote in her book “Why is it Always About You?” narcissists never fully developed a sense of Self. This prevents them from recognizing their boundaries and those of others, and therefore they view others merely as extensions of themselves. It took me a while to wrap my head around that, but it does explain a lot of their behaviour. The people in their lives are just like a hand or a foot that intrinsically does what they wish, or mere possessions like kitchen utensils. When those people are no longer useful to them, they’re discarded or replaced. They can’t feel love the way you and I do; it’s probably more like a feeling of usefulness. Hence the cheating, conflicts, breakups and lack of closure.
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