Tim Riggins is a Beta at heart.
Yeah, I know. Why would I tell you how to flip a player, turn a cad, tame an asshole? I spend much of my time telling you not to put out for these types. I write at great length about how miserable these men make women. How they can have tons of casual sex with tons of women at the same time and not get emotionally attached to any of them. I write about how dirty they are, how STD-ridden. And yet.
I know you still pine for these guys. Successfully taming one is considered by many women to be the brass ring on the mating carousel. Even women who fully understand the risks will shut their eyes tight, hold their noses, and jump off the high dive for the dangerous thrill of it.
Wait, you say. Some of these guys do settle down! I know women who have players for boyfriends!
To those women I say, “How’s that working out? Does he cheat? Are you sure? Does he flirt with other women? Is he in touch with the previous girl who flipped him into monogamy? Do you check his texts? Do you wish you had his Facebook password? Do you rest easy when he’s not with you? Do you know that you are loved unconditionally?”
That’s what I thought.
Still, the dream survives. Like the person who buys one lottery ticket when the jackpot reaches a gazillion dollars, and then is shocked, shocked! when they don’t win, women continue to take a crack at the emotionally unavailable man that every woman wants and none can tame.
First a disclaimer. I don’t have a magic potion, can’t tell you how to bring a wild beast to heel.
The secret to flipping a player is finding one who wants to be flipped.
A pretend asshole. A guy who’s gone from beta to bastard and back again. The truth is, a very high percentage of males understand that assholes get laid. Many don’t know what to do about it. Others work hard to acquire skills with women via Game. But many, many young men just flip into acting like jerks. When in doubt, insult her. Walk away. Never show you care. This is surprisingly effective, and it really doesn’t require a bootcamp to role-play this way. Some of these guys will like the action so much, they won’t ever come back from the Dark side. Some will. You gotta figure about 20% of guys getting laid are jerks. The rest are just acting like jerks. That doesn’t make them fun to be around, but it does mean they are susceptible to being poached.
What does a girl have to do to flip a Pretend Player?
I’ll illustrate with a case study of our own regular reader and commenter Escarondito. I first heard from him in the Spring of 2009, when he was just 21. Here was the first comment he ever left:
What do you do with the girls who, when asked out on a date, look at you nicely and never talk to you again? LOL when my girl friends ask me, “You always have a new girl, do you just hook up or do you want something serious?” I can only respond based on my experience. “If I asked you on a date, treated you well, communicated with you during the week, and acted like a gentleman, you wouldn’t talk to me ’cause you’d think i was a punk.” None of those girls has disagreed with me yet.
At which point I made some remark about the plight of the Nice Guy. To which he responded:
Oh trust me, I understand I am supposed to be “molded” into a nice boy. But, LOL I was nice already. And I am still nice. You see I went to an all-boys boarding school, and I noticed I was gettin no play while the dudes who I heard dogging their girls out all week and sometimes to their faces were getting tail all the time. So when I got to college, I flipped the script and guess what happened? Girls galore. Now my issue is that I’m a graduating senior about to leave college with a strong sense of HFS (hook-up fatigue syndrome) and when I get a girl who I honestly have feelings for I’m constantly battling to keep up my image of bad boy to not let her see my good boy….I know that sounds soooo retarded but I’m telling you with so many girls today that is the case. Plus tbh i do like getting ass every once in awhile, and good boy Me doesn’t cut it in that department, so bad boy Me is what usually has to be shown. But this boy just wants to be good if you know what I mean?
On beta males:
Trust me, I was one too. So then I just started acting like an ass/ stepping my game up/ douching to an almighty level, and I got the sexual relationships I wanted. Great stinking piles of meaningless crap. And then the inner Beta kicked in and I just thought “Hey that was fun, but let’s get back to real life”. Now I’m a graduate watching my friends going through the same transition…[but a man] has to own that part of himself. See it to it’s fullest extent, and then make a decision on how he wishes to be.
On getting flipped into a boyfriend:
The hottest girl I’ve had as a girlfriend did it so simply. We were making out and I wanted to take her back to my room. She said, “No. You can take my number” (then gave a sexy wink), ”But I’m not fucking you tonight”. That let me know, “Hey you gotta invest time with me buddy, but don’t worry – I’m interested, and you aren’t going to want anyone else cause I am SSAAASSYYYY!!!! You better believe I called her during the week, texted her jokes during class, and made plans to hang out with her the next weekend. Not every girl might have the sass to pull that off, but if you’re making out stop yourself before it goes further. You can make out with a boy the first night and he could become your boyfriend, but never after sex. Take out his phone, put your number in it, say “Call me” and walk away. He will think of no one else for the next three nights.
Show relationship skills like loyalty and kindness. Answer your phone when he calls. So many girls only respond by text these days. I’m a call type of guy. If he calls you and you don’t respond and your text doesn’t say something like “in class ttyl”, what’s the point in talking to you? And if he calls you, call him back. When a girl texts me her response instead of calling me back after I called her, she is officially deleted from my contact list. I think girls get hung up on the guy that they are currently seeing and try to make it work. Guys know that if she doesn’t hit the standards I’m looking for someone else will. As my Jamaican family says, we “Cut our eyes and pass it”.
The next weekend we did more than make out but still didn’t have sex. Then I took her out to dinner, and again she was a flat-out person. She asked me “Do you just hook up with girls or do you actually hang out with them more than a couple of nights?” She never explicitly said “Let’s be exclusive,” but she let me know flat out that she wasn’t going to be just another girl. She wasn’t snobby or a bitch about it, she was honest with herself, and what the situation was regarding her and me. And most importantly, she was honest with me. A lot of girls know what the situation is, and know what they want, but if she never told me what she wanted out of the whole thing I still would have had the opportunity to get some and dump her. But she let me know that to get some is to stay with her. If a guy is truly an asshole he could hear all that and still try to pump and dump her but she was a smart girl to realize actions matter more than words. Plus, I’m not an asshole so I saw what standard she wanted, and to be honest, I WANTED to live up to her standard.
[There's a] difference between snobbery and self-respect. A snobby girl has an aura about her telling guys “You better start jumping obstacles to get to me.” A girl with self-respect meets me on even ground and when she spots an area of my game where my action might show an idea that I don’t value her, she put up an obstacle letting me know “Hey I am a woman of value.” I know it sounds like training a dog, but I was only a dog because I was trained to be. That whole courtship with her was eye-opening.
On how to be that girl:
Women often say that men treat women as objects. Here’s a hint: You let us. We use negs to shut down your human defenses. When you follow them you’re only helping us out in doing what we want to do. For example, when you complain that we don’t talk to you enough we say you’re nagging. No one wants to be called a nag so you stop. What you’re really saying is “I want more time with you in our relationship.” What we’re saying is “I want to have time with you when I want it to happen.” You backed down and now I can spend time with you when I want to. Just say, “Fuck that, I’m not nagging, I’m being upfront and serious.” If he doesn’t respect that he doesn’t respect you. That’s an example of what I believe everybody needs to jack them out of their illusions as to what a relationship entails. I call it “g’ing” someone up. He only calls you at 2 a.m.? Next time he calls g’em up and say, “You know, if we spend time together during the day and talk, we could hook up as well.”
But that’s only if you wanna take it past pure hook-up level to friendship and possibly a relationship. But hey, these are just the words of a 21yr old former FWB guy looking for something deeper.
I think Escarondito is wise beyond his years.
Inspired by his use of the word SASSY, here are Escarondito’s tips for flipping a player:
- State interest clearly.
- Say no in the early days.
- Sexily suggest future rewards.
- Set standards.
- Say it straight, preferably with sass.
- Show relationship skills.
Of course, this only works if the guy is looking for something deeper. It’s worth a shot. Even if you don’t get the Player, at least you won’t get Played.
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I may not be what you have in mind because I plan to continue banging other chicks, but I can definitely be flipped into a husband/boyfriend. I pretty much lay it out in my latest post.
Haha, Vincent, you rogue, you know you are a player to the core! Actually, I’ll qualify that – to me playing someone involves deceit. Neil Strauss had multiple LTRs going at once, but he was honest with all of them. He gave them up for Lisa, but if he had wanted to add Lisa to the harem, he would have needed to be open about that, IMO. After all, Roissy et al say that a woman will choose 5 minutes with Alpha over 5 years with Beta. In that case, telling her she’s part of the harem should be no problem, right?
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But no, I don’t think your entering an open relationship, or even worse, cheating, would constitute flipping.
I’m curious as to what ended up happening to that sexy girlfriend….
We broke up. She left Boston. I stayed throughout the summer. Good things come in bad timing.
“Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch’intrate”
Yes, definitely playing with fire here. Personally, I never recommend that a woman enter those gates.
Susan, my dear Susan—your best post yet.
Easily the best bit of practical advice on this topic. Get rid of “The Rules”, Dear Abby, How To Spot a Player and all that other bullshit—you don’t have to “spot a player” if you follow the advice given here, because you’ll weed out 90 percent of them as a matter of course.
Let’s call this what it really is— “Mode One” behavior for women who are looking for relationships. By putting your needs out there in a calm, straightforward, and self-assured manner, you eliminate equivocating, bullshitting and dishonest behavior, perforce.
This is really as close as it gets to “Girl Game”, in my opinion and it’s how my girlfriend managed to tie me down sophomore year (we stayed together almost 4 years) after my wild freshman year. The one caveat is that younger a girl is, the more likely this will work. A woman 18-25 yrs old has a lot of sexual power and hence a lot of leverage—it will be easier for her to pull this off. A 35 year old just doesn’t have the same leverage, even if it’s not nice to say as much.
Whew, Dragnet, I am relieved that this passes muster with a guy who knows the deal! I always say that Girl Game is an oxymoron, because we can’t really control whether we are sexually attractive to a man – we either press his buttons or we don’t. But it stands to reason that once a man is attracted, a woman’s behavior and personality will greatly influence whether he remains interested, and wants something more than sex.
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I agree about the usefulness of weeding out the players. I’ve seen several women do this successfully, and of course the drama in their lives goes waaaayyyy down. Sometimes they miss it. When you’re walking away from a lot of the guys who are indicating interest, life can get pretty lonely on the weekends. I understand how that sucks, but it is better than the alternative. The women who can hold out are often the ones who have been burned and are determined not to repeat it.
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Almost. Women need to own their needs and project confidence—that they are worth having their needs met. If the aim is a relationship, that is.
And “female swag”? Girl, please.
I don’t have a problem with this—but it matters how long she spent getting burned before she got wise. If a women spent her entire 20s getting burned and then, miraculously, upon her 30th birthday decides that she deserves better—odds are I wouldn’t even give her a chance to work her magic. My ex (the one I talked about above) had one boyfriend in high school for 2 years who was a something of a douche and one other boyfriend in college who was actually a pretty nice guy, just a bit to squishy. Was it important to me that she’d only been “burned” once before?
You betcha.
“A woman 18-25 yrs old has a lot of sexual power and hence a lot of leverage—it will be easier for her to pull this off. A 35 year old just doesn’t have the same leverage, even if it’s not nice to say as much.”
This is a good lesson in “Life is not Fair, Volume 1.” I feel very bad for girls who lacked guidance and were somewhat slow learning the realities of men. Poor things, even if it is their fault for being dense. How many 35 year old women are shocked–shocked!–that men are far more interested in a woman 10 years younger with less than 3/4 her vaunted “accomplishments”? We live in a society too fixated on fairness, not understanding that the unfairness of the world must be accepted wholesale and dealt with. Not to be too pedantic*, but the Greeks understood this:
“The gifts the gods bestow we mortals must endure; perforce, though filled with grief.”
*I am of course being a little pedantic, aren’t I?
Agreed. The women who will ultimately attract a quality man are women who figured out those lessons very, very quickly. Once is really all it takes to learn the lesson if women are paying attention. The worst thing a woman can do is, as you say, spend a decade with dead-end guys and then try to convert to someone with different values. It won’t help, because aside from the fact that she is now ten years older, she is still the woman who went for all those jerks, entered one bad relationship after another, and allowed herself to be used every step of the way. Most of these women are probably no longer emotionally fit for an LTR or marriage. Whether they’re physically attractive enough then is another question.
OK, seriously, your intellectualism is such a turnon. The college girls lurking here should be all over you.
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Someone said somewhere (was it my blog? which thread? another blog? a different thread? – it all runs together!) that a woman should not date a man she wouldn’t marry. Although it sounds creepy to be looking at every guy as baby daddy material, it’s quite sensible. The guitarist in the punk pop band has very little chance of becoming a good husband and father. Who knows – he may become a stable homebody in time, but women need to work with the data they have NOW. If women would look at men through this lens more often, and combine that with the knowledge they should be heeding re their own waning beauty and fertility, things would go a lot better for them.
I think he is brilliant in his last paragraph “On How to be that Girl”. It’s chalk full of in your face truth and women need to read it and take it to heart.
And just my two cents on the following!
State interest clearly. <– A lot of women cannot do this, because they think it makes them look needy or desperate. However, it's really not a hard thing to do. Women need to own their confidence and project it.
Say no in the early days. <– This cannot be more true. I see this over and over when my girlfriend jump in the sack with every new guy they meet and they wonder why he is not calling them anymore.
Sexily suggest future rewards. <– It's called feminie wiles ladies. It's an age old practice, and it is sexy as hell when employed correctly.
Set standards. <– I believe I made comments about this a few weeks ago. You have to have areas in your personal dating life that you will not compromise on. It's not being a bitch or too picky. It's knowing what you want and not settling for less.
Say it straight, preferably with sass. <– Guys respond well to direct statements. No beating around the bush. Do with confidence, eye contact and some female swag and you're in.
Show relationship skills. <– And practice them.
Re stating interest clearly, I think it’s the opposite of needy and desperate, but it is definitely a mistake that many women make. I’ve written before about “saying what you need to say.” The key to pulling this off is in being able to say:
I like you. I’m interested. In fact, I think you’re great, so I don’t want to blow it by moving too fast. We’ll both appreciate that in the long run, believe me.
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If a guy then disappears, or says, “Um, no thanks,” a woman should just think, “Hmmm, pity.” And move on. This is not weakness! She knew her own worth – I loved how Escarondito said he WANTED to live up to her standard.
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Re having sex in the early days, one of the things that made me start thinking, then reading, then writing about relationships, was a friend of my daughter’s. After I had established myself as a “cool mom” who wouldn’t judge, she asked me why a guy she had given a blowjob had never called. Actually, she asked why guys don’t ever call, and when I asked for details I learned she’d gone down on him at a school dance. He was the Big Man on Campus, and she felt privileged, singled out. She couldn’t understand why, with her awesome oral skills, he didn’t want to make her his girlfriend.
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Re being sassy, this is definitely effective with certain guys. Not all guys want the backtalk, but I have definitely ratcheted up sexual tension with witty banter, teasing, and standing up for myself. In fact, I’d say that when men have been a bit obsessed with me, it was down to that. In this way, women do have Game.
Blowjob at a school dance. Nuff said.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
It’s like fast food fulfilled my appetite, but I’ll always be better filled from a full course meal.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
Yep—I know this feeling, and I rarely get it which tells you about the overall quality of women out there. When a girl is worth it, I want to treat her differently. I’m much more willing to invest my time, energy, wait for sex, etc. But the key here is that’s she’s actually high value/relationship material. Stating her needs and worth are necessary, but not sufficient (for me, at least). A savvy guy has ways of sussing out relationship value. If she is direct about her needs AND is relationship material according to my personal rubric then, and only then, can she continue to “Girl Game” me, as it were.
And none of this diminshes the need for guys to show leadership and to pace the courtship & the relationship. In fact, if she’s setting the standards more than a quarter of the time then either, 1) your Game needs work, IMHO or 2) the guy is overpursuing and is still very much a player.
I’m glad you inserted “certain” as a qualifier. Too many girls make the mistake of thinking guys are into this. And a lot of them are…but a lot of us aren’t. For me, sass is like wasabi—a little bit is perfect, but even a little more is just too much. I wouldn’t classify it as “backtalk” as that has a negative connotation, but it mostly doesn’t do anything for me. I suggest the ladies try a little at first, and if the guy is into it and can handle himself then slowly ratchet it up.
Yeah, seriously. And yet, this poor girl, who was around 18 at the time, didn’t get it at all. Anyway, I can say it a million times, but your words here, as a man with considerable experience, say it so much better, and carry Y chromosome credibility.
Haha, I love the wasabi analogy! Fair enough, it’s all about reading signals, and seeing what works for different people. It’s also about personal taste, or the match, as you say. Some men find sass unfeminine, preferring a demure woman. Some men go for a bit of a challenge to their authority. And some men can’t resist the completely psycho women who are just a mess! (That one I really don’t understand.)
Yes, the psychology is interesting. I think guys are driven to conquer and tame—to plant flags in shit, whether it’s the New World, the moon, or his woman. I also think that men have a natural tendency to self-sacrifice, but among weaker men (i.e., men who put up with psycho women) this can be manipulated into masochism. I don’t know, maybe I’m overreaching.
With regards to my personal feelings, I don’t mind challenges to my authority here and there in my relationships. And with the way women have been socially engineered these days, I expect—and embrace—these challenges from time to time. The important question is: what is she trying to accomplish with her (conscious) shit tests? Is she trying to strip away my authority or is she trying to inspire me? Those are very different things and garner two very different reactions from me. Or does she just need to be reassured that I am who she thinks I am? In any event, this is why it’s important to have your Inner Game right inasmuch as you don’t let her moods & emotions disturb your equanimity—that you are incentivizing calm, trusting behavior on her part and discouraging less worthwhile behavior.
This is illustrated by a relationship I was in about two years ago. She was a generally demure woman—but she wouldn’t just yield to any man. She went through a couple of would-be players and Gamers like a knife through hot butter. I knew she was attracted to me from the jump, but she didn’t make it easy for me. She challenged a fair amount early on, but after I’d weathered the storm she’d decided that I was strong enough to submit to and her frequent testing/sass became relatively rare. For me, this is where the attraction further deepened—the idea that once my character and mental state proved congruent with my initial disposition, she gave herself to me. Just enough sass to see if her would-be conqueror was for real.
HAHAHAHA
1) obsidian. I’m Middle class, did go to university, but am black.
2) Will admit I slipped up there. She threw me off as most college girls are, fortunately or unfortunately easy depending on who’s reading, are easy and wouldn’t say something like that. I shouldv’e known though, chick was cuban.
3) Not gonna lie back in Jersey and really don’t want to put in the time and effort for a GF and maddd girls have been flocking to the shore this summer to find their own “situation” soooo….the game is coming back hard. Sorry susan. Maybe I’ll find a fling to hold me down but no LTR for me right now cause in the words of pauly d “God help me it summa!”.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
Hmmm, maybe I was unusual, but I got back out into the dating world at the advanced age of 39 and was astonished (in a good way) at the attention I got. Contrary to what most of the “manosphere” believes, life does not end at 30, even for women.
agreed. But it’s esca as a nickname not esco. Esca is a feared name in the videogame world and people actually know who I am when they see me post on anything considering this is the only name I ever use.
Don’t play me man, people will start cracking jokes before the halo match begins…
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
Says who? A lot of “nice girls” are hesitant to dress at all flashy. They almost seem afraid to display any kind of sexuality, perhaps because it has attracted negative attention in the past. I don’t mean you have to dress like a streetwalker either. But I could take an average girl and make her look like a movie star with the right clothes, hair and makeup.
Ah, this gave me goosebumps! This conquerer talk, planting flags and such, is good stuff. It’s very manly, and women like manly men.
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One question – when you say the attraction further deepened, do you mean, your attraction for her deepened when her sass became rare? Or that her attraction deepened, which led to her giving herself to you?
Haha, I won’t call a foul on summer mischief. Plus you know I have no problem with any of the above if it is, as you say, flat out. Carpe diem and caveat emptor.
I am afraid I have to second dragnet’s skepticism of female swag. Speaking only for myself, sass and confidence may not be the best words to describe what Ms. Walsh is trying to get at. Think coy and coquettish and you may be better off. Though I imagine these amount to the same thing. Anyway, I don’t want to get into semantics–just two words that need to be out there, I think.
I mean that my attraction for her deepened once she acknowledged my worthiness by easing up. It was a signal that I’d overcome.
That was hot.
Agree googly eye chicks disgust me cause it implies god on a mountain status, but when a chick eases up and you can tell she has the mindset of “you’ve passed my tests I’ll let you in”. Great feeling. Then I actually start really caring about stuff in our relationship.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
Obsidian, honestly, I don’t know why you have your knickers in a twist. You know I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying here, least of all that women love drama. I said above that women who weed out players find that the drama in their lives disappears, and that can actually get boring and lonely. However, women like drama with a happy ending, as every Hollywood director and romance novelist can confirm. Once we get the message that we’re headed for a disappointing finale, we’ll walk. Pretty soon we learn the signs – nope, he’s really, truly not into me at all. The signs are obvious from the start once a woman knows what the right standards are.
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As for women wanting a man who gets them wet, well duh. Of course Dragnet and Escarondito can keep doing what they’re doing indefinitely and get women. The whole point of this post is that Escarondito got tired of it. Big stinking piles of meaningless crap. Surely you can relate to that Obs? As much as you talk about Brown Sugah?
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Why do you say that Esc’s game needs tightening, when both he and the girl got what they wanted? They had a successful relationship, based on mutual respect. Where’s the difficulty? Would you be happier if he’d found a way to pump and dump her?
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As for your “no dis”, it most certainly is a dis. As a mildly neurotic white woman who has readers of all races, I don’t agree that HUS is a masturbatory exercise. Furthermore, since you dedicate a fair amount of your own time to calling out black women for their behavior, I don’t see what race has to do with it. At all.
No one is saying, Aldonza, that life ends for women at 30. The claim is that men tend to be more interested in younger women than older ones–as a general rule–and that they tend to care for youth, beauty and personality more than the accomplishments and confidence that comes with age. In order for your claim to have merit, we’d have to compare the attention you received at 29 with the attention you received at 39. Even then, we’d have to compare the type/quality of man and his desire to commit to you. Even then were you to, as I suspect come out on top, you’d just be one story.
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Obviously nothing here is scientific. I can only extrapolate from my own experiences and thoughts and those of my friends. No, life doesn’t end; but would a 34 year old man prefer a 30 year old or 26 year old as a mate? The question answers itself, I think.
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Just my two cents.
Wow—some strong medicine here.
Look, we all know the deal. Everyone here does. Personally, I don’t have a problem with women making the decision to chase “the tingle” to the exclusion of all else—as long as they are willing to accept the (likely) consequences of failure.
That said, it’s just not realisitc to just expect women to quit trying to snag and tame alphas. And I really don’t see a problem with Susan devoting the occassional post to it because it’s the reality that a lot of her readers live in. It really is part of what it means to be a sexually active woman these days, in some sense. And it’s not as if it’s the totality of her blog. Most times, she’s actually encouraging these young ladies to give the betas and dweebs a second look—to see the value in those guys while they’re young. I really don’t the problem if she devotes 1 of every 20 posts to snagging a player who is willing to settle down…
…if only because that describes me at the ripe old age of 26. Sex never gets old—but chasing it down definitely does. The LTRs I’ve been in have all been with girls who’ve done at least half of the things outlined in this post—and rest assured the next (and hopefully last) one will be, too. I fully support any efforts to give the ladies a road-map to the hearts of us reformable players.
Well, I see the gang’s all here.
Can’t really say that I relate to what has been presented by Ms. Walsh or by her “guinea pig” Esco, since I never attended university and of course, am not White. But what I will say is this – really, Women know the deal. They are far and away more socially saavy than the vast majority of them let on, or the vast majority of Men even know about. In fact, only those Men who have considerable Game knowledge and skill will know what I’m talking about. The rest of the poor saps don’t even have a blessed clue.
I say all this because really, at some point, we gotta stop the charade. The vast majority of the ladies reading this knows the deal. They know exactly where to go to get those “nice boys” – THEY SIMPLY DON’T WANT THEM. Why? Because they don’t make them wet, and in our time today, that is what matters most.
So, being that this is the case, guys like Esco do what they must to get laid, as all Men who are able do and have done sime time immemorial, and this won’t stop anytime soon. This is because Women, as a block, will not change their selection criteria anytime soon.
Simply put, there really isn’t a pragmatic reason as to why the Escos and Dragnets of the world shouldn’t stop doing what they do. It works. Period. And the dirty little secret is, that’s just the way most Women out there, including a goodly portion of those reading this as we I type this, likes it.
Women LOVE drama. Please do not attempt to debate me on this, deny it, etc, et al. The entirety of Hollywood is built on this. Soap operas that have been running for DECADES, have been built on this. Barbara Cartland and a truckload of other novelists and the like, have made their mark on history, based on this.
Dragnet is 100% – so long as a Woman is able, she can and will do all she can to snag Mr. Big. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, only keeping it brutally real. Years of life on the streets will do that to you. No dis to Ms. Walsh or her many nice readers here, but I really don’t have the time or inclination to indulge in what I often see here and so many other internet venues (that are populated by, in the main, middle class and above, White and White Collar folk who are largely insulated from the rough and tumble of the real world) to be dangerously close masturbatory sessions that so occasions the neurotica of White folk, especially their females. Bottomline, there is a reason that so many guys are going douche, because it works. If you don’t like it, get the nice boy who more resembles dweeby Clark Kent.
But we all know Hell will freeze over before that happens, right?
And yea, I would Esco’s Game needs a bit of tightening up. .;)
Carry on
O.
Well, that’s certainly true. I guess what I meant was that a woman at her best will appeal to some men and not others. Men may be willing to have sex with just about anyone, but real attraction is something else – more chemical.
I think you’re 100% right. In fact the woman who doesn’t do what you say is looking for serious trouble: no one wants to have three kids and a mortgage *and* a deadbeat husband or poor, aloof father.
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The key is to just not tell him that you’re jugding him as future father potential…I mean, marriage dating has an end, doesn’t it? That end is falling in love and marrying isn’t it? Then come the children, right? Best be self-aware about what you’re getting into.
Hmmm, coy and coquettish? That goes with simpering and silly. I think sassy is something else entirely, and it requires a certain boldness, as well as wit. Think of the screwball comedies of the 40s. Hepburn and Tracy, The Thin Man, even Mae West. I’m trying to think of a modern day example, but am coming up empty. Wow, that’s ridiculous. Either I’m stuck in an era before I was born, or they really don’t make them like they used to.
Ah, the planting of the pole. I can imagine.
Can’t lie little psycho, clearly emotionally disturbed, hipster girls make my pants tight. I know I am in for a shit night. Funny story there was a girl that I had relations with while in boston I’ll call her *camilla*. She was a model, sexy tall girl, jamaican too, and a crazy as a bat heroine user. Greatest up and downs of my life and it is weird for me to say that. But the downs were never even really bad cause I didn’t give a shit. Like she tried to get her ex bf to try and beat me up but I didn’t play that shit. Talked to him man to man, we agreed bitch was crazy, and I went to her place and got head.
Nothing like a crazy chick….sigh. I miss her.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
Esco,
Surely you don’t need me to spell this out for you – middle class Black folk and working class Black folk are quite different. What I was talking about extended beyond race alone, as your revelation above speaks to. Simply put, to be in middle class life is to live in a world where things are inferred, oblique. To live a working class life is to live in a world where very often, things are right in your face.
I trust you can take things from there.
O.
Esca,
OK, whatever floats your boat, LOL. Can’t say I’m much of a videgamer myself.
Anywho…
O.
All things being equal, I agree wholeheartedly that the average guy would choose the younger woman. The thing is, things are *never* equal. The 30yo might have a kickin’ body, the 26yo might laugh like your hated aunt ethel, the 30yo might remind you of the social studies teacher you had when you went through puberty while the 26yo might be a selfish twit. Or, you might be a 36yo guy and have almost nothing in common with the 26yo.
People are individuals and age/relative attractiveness is just one factor of thousands that we use to evaluate one another for potential mate-worthiness.
And, for the record, I received tons more attention at 39 than I did at 29…or even 22 for that matter.
I couldn’t play “coy and coquettish” if my life depended on it. I’d argue that Mae West was far from coy about her charms.
I loved the sitcoms of the 80s like “Moonlighting” and “Remington Steele”. For more recent examples, Christina Applegate in Anchorman, very sassy, Reese Witherspoon in just about anything she does. And, of course, our own Bridget Jones.
Very few women even come close to realizing the potential of their attractiveness.
I think for an alpha male, there’s a very, very fine line a woman has to walk to be able to pull off sassy and high value. To put it bluntly, most men don’t buy a girl’s shit. If a girl is going to talk big, she needs to back it up big. That is, if a girl says, “Listen, I like you but I’m not putting out until you prove you’re worth it,” a good alpha guy who can be “flipped” will say to himself, “Ok… you get one chance to prove how awesome you are.” We can spot a poser.
So when we ask you out, we want to see the sexy, but we also want to see the character. (Great post a few days ago on female character, btw.) We want real, interesting conversation. We want you to be sexy and tantalize us with what you’d like to give us. We want to know that you’re not a golddigger. It’s ok to let us pay for dinner if we want, but you could foot for coffee and dessert later. It’s also ok to go dutch… a lot of alphas simply won’t pay for a date that hasn’t been consummated. If you’re trying to flip a player, you may have to invest a little in the beginning.
Above all, you may not flake on us. Not even once. We will drop you like a hot potato. If you have to cancel a date, we’ll understand — if you immediately set up a second date in the very near future and buy the first round of drinks. You don’t get out of social obligation because you’ve got boobs. When you put someone out, you make up for it. That shows character.
The line between narcissism and real self-confidence is fine, but the good guys can tell the difference. It’s about respecting what you’ve given so far and not expecting the guy to give more. It’s about being certain of what your worth without being haughty about it. You can be absolutely sweet and loving while still maintaining self-respect and boundaries.
Hambydammit´s last [type] ..Can Science Talk About Morality
Sassy…oh boy. During my dumber pure beta years, oh how appealing the sassy girls were, dominant and independent. But the line between a “sassy” woman and “termagant” can be a fine line indeed. A little banter, cleverness and some wit, that’s good. But for some of the “sassy” women I knew, everything was an excuse for an argument. No matter how good-looking they might be, it wasn’t worth a LTR with them.
“Ah, this gave me goosebumps! This conquerer talk, planting flags and such, is good stuff. It’s very manly, and women like manly men.”
Do we? Personally, just reading it made me feel violated. I really don’t want to be with a man that thinks about women this way. But then, I’m not and never have tried to flip an alpha. I’m somewhat of an alpha woman, which may explain why I’m naturally attracted to betas
Would you agree that regardless of raw material, attitude and carriage plays an important role? Because that’s been my experience. And I daresay it’s one reason why you are reeling them in at 39….
I’d argue that it’s the same fine line between the easy, teasing banter that a true alpha will use, and the clumsy and even mean negs applied by the wannabes.
I’ll second Reese Witherspoon – love her. I adore Bridget Jones, in part because of the P&P ripoff, but she is not really sassy. She’s more of a lovable, bumbling goofball, and though I adore the happy ending, I never am able to suspend disbelief that Mark Darcy falls for her. Her best moment is when she tells Daniel Cleaver that his offer is not good enough for her. And I also like the moment when she tells Mark that if he ever wants to come round, that would be nice. In fact, more than nice. Sigh. I love the Brits (of course I know RZ isn’t British, she just plays one in the movies).
Oh God, that’s the dopamine rush, for sure. I don’t know what it is about hipsters – it’s like they’re all wearing a sign saying, “Unstable, unpredictable, unreliable.”
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Yeah! Gimme some of that!
I have to say, I love the cocky here. How you slipped right into that “true alpha.” You make a really good point, and it gets back to a post of yours that I often come back to in my mind – what is the value you can add? What can you offer that makes you better than assorted random chicks?
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Re paying, this is a pet peeve of mine. Women need to get over it. Now. Chivalry is off the table. Women should ALWAYS offer to split the bill. Ideally, the guy will decline, and if the date has gone well, she should pick up the tab for the next date. Same deal with drinks. Some men truly prefer to pay, but a woman should never assume that she is entitled to anything. I get it that some men will only pay after sex, but I don’t even think that should be the standard. Unless one person is hard up for cash, the expectation should be 50/50.
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Re flaking: If someone does this once, they are on final, super serious, probation. If a woman or man needs to change plans, fine. The way they do that – IN ADVANCE – not hours after – and their earnest attempt to reschedule should make their intentions clear. If someone stands you up? Finito.
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OK, I realize I sound like a real hardass here, haha, but women who pull this crap give all of us a bad name. The manipulative, entitled ones need to be put in their place.
Confession: I had to look up the meaning of termagant. All I can say is that if a woman is scolding and quarrelsome in the beginning, when she is most invested in making a good impression, well, let’s just say I don’t think it’s gets better from there.
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Sassy is only sexy if there’s a smile and a wink behind it, IMO. It’s a technique for increasing sexual tension. Disagreement can also work this way – we all know when a man and a woman hate each other in a flick that they’re going to wind up canoodling…but it’s much more unusual, and only works if the parties are physically attracted.
Woah! “Termagant!” That’s a winner for the best word I’ve learned in a long time. Now.. what was it I wanted to say about your comment? Gee… I can’t even remember. I love learning new words.
Hambydammit´s last [type] ..Can Science Talk About Morality
Agreed. “The Rules” were one of the worst things to happen to women in decades. They’re nothing but a blueprint for being a spoiled, flaky bitch. The moment I detect a hint of “Rules” in a girl, I hit the road.
The thing is, you can be a fair, grown up, responsible, self-respecting woman and still be a model of femininity. Guys will dig that. (Good guys.) You can pull out the Visa card from your cutesy little Coach clutch, and it won’t make you look too manly.
Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention: If you have to cancel, first of all, think of it as missing class when you’ve got no more absences available. If you don’t have a doctor’s excuse or something equally weighty, you shouldn’t cancel. You made the date. Be a grown up and keep it. If you’re feeling bloated or PMSing so hard you don’t think you can be nice, ask the guy very nicely if it’s ok to postpone. Don’t just flake. If you do cancel, don’t wait for him to say, “So do you want to go out again?” Jump right in there and say, “I’m so sorry… I’m free most of the rest of this week. Can we go out tomorrow? I’ll get the first round of drinks to say I’m sorry for cancelling.” That will display interest to the guy, which is very important, and it will also display good character and a sense of fairness and obligation.
Hambydammit´s last [type] ..Can Science Talk About Morality
Well, the fact that a woman is a termagant isn’t necessarily obvious at first (similar to how cads can fool women early on). The playful side of “sassy” is more evident at first, and, particularly if the woman is physically attractive and making the guy fall head over heels, it’s easy for guy to ignore the warnings signs, and the scolding, quarrelsome part that becomes clearer later on. And yes, I speak from experience.
Oh boy, that sounds brutal, and like it probably is accompanied by a lot of nagging. So I guess a synonym for termagant might be harridan…Actually, this makes me wonder about something – do you think women like this go after betas specifically, in order to browbeat and dominate them? Are they looking for the man who will make the perfect henpecked husband? If so, beta guys need some serious schooling in what NOT to go for. Sounds like you got that via life experience.
Aldonza,
Yea, but so what? We’re talking about Womken here, NOT Men. You want to do that, head to a discussion that is dealing with Men. I understand Lady Raine’s place has such discussions obtaining. Have at it.
O.
Yea, but Aldonza, so what? We’re not talking about Men, we’re talking about Women. If you want to discuss the bad things PUA guys do, head over to Lady Raine’s. Knock yourself out among fellow travelers.
O.
From what I hear, true alphas are capable of terrible cruelty. Forget teasing banter, these guys are brutal. Remember Paolo, who texted Tara “forget it” when she didn’t indicate that she was DTF for their first meetup?
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It is true that guys trying to learn Game can come up with very clumsy negs. One woman reported that after she rejected a guy’s opening at a bar, he told her she had gross teeth. However, she wasn’t offended – she was amused and ridiculed him. I am on record as being neg-unfriendly in general, but I understand why men learn how to do it. Because it works. Every guy who sasses a woman makes himself more desirable in that woman’s eyes, provided he knows enough to push the right buttons.
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It doesn’t always work in reverse. For sass to work on a guy, it can’t be a neg. It has to have a built-in reinforcement. The message that “you can have this if you play for a bit.” Sassy attitude is a way of providing incentive, but the woman has to calibrate the degree of attitude to the man’s preferred type.
Well, it gets back to what Escarondito said. If a woman is interested, she needs to indicate that. Clearly. So if a guy says how about Friday, and she can’t, but she’s interested, she needs to say that. She needs to specifically state that she wishes she were available and would love to plan for another time. Forget all this hard-to-get nonsense. Once you go down that road, it’s nothing but the Principle of Least Interest for as long as the relationship lasts.
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Men risk most of the rejection. Therefore, they should get most of the positive reinforcement when initiating. If a woman digs a guy but doesn’t say so when he asks her out, she runs the risk of sending him away forever. That is not a good strategy.
Well, there you go! The truth is, there are an infinite number of complementary mixes. If you’re attracted to betas, YAAAAAYYYYYY!, OK sorry, if you’re attracted to betas, that’s awesome. That brings up an interesting question – in this era of female accomplishment, perhaps the answer is in opposites attracting. Alpha women with beta men. Educated women with blue collar men. There’s no question that the population will be lopsided in this way for your generation. It will be interesting to see how matches get made.
Hi Ms. Walsh,
Replies below:
SW: Obsidian, honestly, I don’t know why you have your knickers in a twist. You know I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying here, least of all that women love drama. I said above that women who weed out players find that the drama in their lives disappears, and that can actually get boring and lonely. However, women like drama with a happy ending, as every Hollywood director and romance novelist can confirm. Once we get the message that we’re headed for a disappointing finale, we’ll walk. Pretty soon we learn the signs – nope, he’s really, truly not into me at all. The signs are obvious from the start once a woman knows what the right standards are.
O: Well, if your blog and the many, many others like it, are any indication, I would beg to differ. I think Dragnet summed up my view on the matter very well – I have no problem with the ladies chasing the tingle, I just want them to Man the f*ck Up about it and accept that it comes at a price. No way in hell could a Man whine and complain as much as the ladies do in this regard, I know the homies in the circles I rolled in couldn’t. Our motto was that you can’t make a Ho into a Housewife, and any Man who tries deserves to get got. You took it like a Man. I don’t think it’s too much to ask the same of the ladies, hmm?
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SW: As for women wanting a man who gets them wet, well duh. Of course Dragnet and Escarondito can keep doing what they’re doing indefinitely and get women. The whole point of this post is that Escarondito got tired of it. Big stinking piles of meaningless crap. Surely you can relate to that Obs? As much as you talk about Brown Sugah?
O: Completely different situation. For one thing, I set out with a totally different objective that Esca.
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SW: Why do you say that Esc’s game needs tightening, when both he and the girl got what they wanted? They had a successful relationship, based on mutual respect. Where’s the difficulty? Would you be happier if he’d found a way to pump and dump her?
O: Based on what I read, it sounded like he was a bit shaky in some respects. For example, he didn’t seem to me to have exceuted Solid Game, in fact it sounded more like a variant of Fool’s Mate. As for the pump and dump thing, I really don’t have a view one way or another on that one. That’s something each Man has to decide for himself.
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SW: As for your “no dis”, it most certainly is a dis. As a mildly neurotic white woman who has readers of all races, I don’t agree that HUS is a masturbatory exercise. Furthermore, since you dedicate a fair amount of your own time to calling out black women for their behavior, I don’t see what race has to do with it. At all.
O: I wasn’t singling out only your blog, Ms. Walsh. You have to understand that I’m very much an “alien”, even in comparison to fellow African Americans like Athlone, Dragnet or Esca. They can explain to you why. And that is why I said what I did, and I maintain that view. so much of it all comes off to me as a kind of navel gazing session.
As for my writing about and on Black Women, as I’ve said many times before, Black Women simply don’t perceive issues of Race in the same way that Black Men do. This is either because their experiences are so vastly different from that of Black Men in the main, and/or because like all Women, they’re more willing to go along to get along. Whatever the case, the bottomline is that Black Women simply don’t discuss these things out in the open in the waysa Brotha can and will.
Bottomline: Women know where the nice boys are. They simply don’t want them. Coolbeans – then kindly shut up and take your tradeoffs in life just like the rest of us.
Problem. Solved.
O.
Obs: Our motto was that you can’t make a Ho into a Housewife, and any Man who tries deserves to get got. You took it like a Man. I don’t think it’s too much to ask the same of the ladies, hmm?
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SW: Yes it is too much to ask. We take things like a Woman, and that is a very different thing. Women learn through experience that chasing the tingle comes at a price. Some women will continue to spend emotional capital in their attempts to tame the player. Some will write off a bad investment once and be more risk averse in future. Either way, we’re bound to be emotional and dramatic about it.
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I state clearly in this post that I don’t recommend that women try to flip a player, but I’m being realistic. There are many, many players and pretend players out there. And they’re the most likely guys to be making moves. As you noted many times, the STEM guys are not in the mix as much. My point is that real players are not relationship material, but pretend, or temporary players are. They’re the guys who will apply Game to make a LTR successful.
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I understand why you feel that I do a lot of navel gazing here. Certainly, there are more pressing matters in the world than whose heart gets broken this week. Please keep in mind that I’m writing from my kitchen in the world I live in. I’m a middle class white woman, that’s what I know. I write about what I know. I hope, and believe, that these issues transcend age (that’s essential, in my case) and race. I get that you are in a different place than the Ivy educated black guys who come to both our blogs – but as long as we’re talking about the human condition, I don’t see how that matters much when it comes to what the heart wants.
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Yup, women know where the nice boys are. And they do not want them. Is that what you want to hear? They want a man who demonstrates social dominance and understanding of what makes women tick. It’s not even a conscious choice – it is just simply what works. You imply that men are either nice or good with women, and that those things are mutually exclusive. Game says otherwise. The brutal truth is that if a beta guy can’t adopt dominant behaviors, he will not succeed. If an alpha guy can’t adopt provider behaviors, he will not succeed. Of course, this depends on how one defines success.
Yes, many definitions of success here are possible. So in the example cited? Boy game meets girl game, girl games wins on points for the short term victory. Further, the GG was likely consciously conducted Disregarding (or suppressing) any sort of long term possibilities or thought. (She knew she was leaving) But it’s all pretty common actually. So here, again, ‘flipping a player’ was seemingly done for short term entertainment & little real ‘gain’, other than some needed attention perhaps and some dinners out.
And yes, the script could have been written 70 or 50 years ago too. So nothing wrong with ‘old games’, they might work in the proper contexts. But here? Seems like was most likely strictly for entertainment purposes. Which again is fine. But my thought here is that eventually, like O & others are constantly noting, ‘female desires’, have to meet the paradox of modern mating fairly & squarely. If you want the dads? They’re in one part of the Venn diagram. The good looking & ever so deliciously tingly feeling cads? Are mostly, reliably in a separate category. They do share some membership in common, but it’s an ever changing cast of characters as a few ‘cads’ do grow up somehow (it happens, mainly in their 40′s tho), and the population is filled by new entrants from ‘below’ or ‘sideways’ migration (divorce, immigration, whatever). And yes guys have their own Separate Paradoxes. (Youth is not forever, beauty & fertility is not a given & is ever unreliable at many ages).
But waiting ever diligently to ‘flip a player’ with your ‘feminine whiles’ & ‘sassy charm’ is perhaps really done best when in that special region of your upper 30′s & 40′s when you know just enough about yourself & your potential targets that they now know you by your proper hunting cat name. Wisdom comes late to most, and as ever youth is wasted on the young. So perhaps not as long as the odds of making it to the NBA, but we’re still talking fairly long odds. And yes, for most ‘average looking’ folks of ‘mean talents’? You might aim for ‘the stars’ and still come up with mere mud. The most likely outcome actually? Single motherhood. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’
Re being sassy, this is definitely effective with certain guys. Not all guys want the backtalk, but I have definitely ratcheted up sexual tension with witty banter, teasing, and standing up for myself. In fact, I’d say that when men have been a bit obsessed with me, it was down to that. In this way, women do have Game.
I think this can work, but it depends on the delivery and subtlety. My GF will get sassy with me, We are getting ready to move in together and lately she has joked with me “about being in charge of this operation”. I’ll usually come back with “I’ll show you who is in charge of this operation” and smack her on the ass.
And some men can’t resist the completely psycho women who are just a mess! (That one I really don’t understand.)
My sample size MIGHT be too small to say anything here definitive, but my experience is the “psycho” women are usually the freakiest sexually. They are often into trying all sorts of crazy stuff, and will take you places the more demure type simply will not. One example, my ex-wife was psycho, but very adventuresome. The first time we went to a strip club together was on her suggestion. We did that quite often. Either consciously or subconsciously she knew about the male desire for sexual variety, and would say stuff during sex to create the fantasies of other women.
Ultimately though, not worth the other problems, and fact of the matter there are other things just as important or more important in a LTR then super crazy intense sex.
“And none of this diminshes the need for guys to show leadership and to pace the courtship & the relationship. In fact, if she’s setting the standards more than a quarter of the time then either, 1) your Game needs work, IMHO or 2) the guy is overpursuing and is still very much a player.”
Eh. Disagree. I think a lot of guys want to see you ALL THE TIME in the beginning, and I definitely cool things out a bit — make them miss you. If a guy is trying to spend a lot of time with you, it probably just means he wants to spend time with you, not that he doesn’t have game or is a player (he could be either, or neither). In my experience, women have to set the timing of seeing one another so you can slowly build because a lot of guys would just see you a ton until the relationship burns out quickly.
In my opinion, the best way is to see the person a lot (not too much that they don’t look forward to seeing you) in the beginning. The more people are exposed to a stimulus, the more they like it (like that song Sexyback. I hated it when I first heard it, but after 1,000 radio plays, it became my favorite song). Once you’re sure they like you a lot, you stop seeing them so often, claiming you are busy. A lot of times, this seals their attraction for you — the scarcity / rarity principle. This sounds manipulative, and you’re right, it is. Just think about it like I do: it’s for their own good
A lot of really great couples I’ve seen have crashed & burned in their infancy because they had an issue with this “building attraction” phase — one person called too much or they spent too much time together, or not enough. So that’s what I’d recommend from my own experience.
I’ve negged guys (jokingly, with a smile) with varying degrees of success. Some were instantly smitten, some were really intimidated & basically shrank from interaction from that point forward. Some seemed very turned off. So I think it’s a high-risk venture, but when it works, it works big. The couple of guys it worked on were very alpha-ish, so maybe they like having the game spat back at them? It kind of raises your value in their eyes I think, since you’re basically saying, ‘you’re not that great, I’ve had better.’ I think maybe it doesn’t work as well on betas, who think you’re making fun of them.
I always offer to pay, but I can’t help liking the guys who never let me do so much more than those who like to split things. In fact, I haven’t really ever dated someone long-term who liked to split things. Maybe that says bad things about me as a person, but we didn’t always do expensive things — many walks in the park or bike rides, and I hardly ever got more than a glass of wine when out, so I didn’t feel like I was being ridiculous. I also cooked for them, so I felt like I was contributing something.
I’ve seen a few of these women, strangely enough. They tend to prefer betas who are laid back and manageable, but aren’t slackers. That way, they can wear the pants in the family, but not feel they are with some moocher. The ones I knew were perfectly reasonable seeming with their partners, as long as they had their way, but if not, look out! A bunch of the long-term marriages I am friends with have this dynamic, with the dominant wife running things, and giving the husband some occasional freedom (a once a month golf or video game outing or similar harmless geek vice with friends). Also strangely enough, these are among the few women who seemed most immune to the cads, probably because of the clash of personalities. Some are worse than others, the worst being the ones that will berate the poor guy in front of everyone, while the more diplomatic ones will turn quiet, and you won’t see your buddy for weeks until he’s out of the dog house.
Indubitally true. But the point is also, is it not, that if you want three children, a dog, and a husband then you’d better learn to pick and settle on men (relatively) quickly. Silly dating choices well into your thirties makes that life dream impossible.
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It depends upon a woman’s goals. So long as she is honest about the costs of won goal over another. High powered career? Sure; but you won’t have a high powered family life unless you’re some sort of genius.
I was thinking more Scarlett O’Hara.
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But this post isn’t meant for my preferences, since I’m not a player. I could never imagine using “sassy” in a complimentary fashion, but I’m not a player.
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Just my 2 cents.
I hope they keep at it.
I hope they never give up and start looking for a “nice guy”.
The nice guys do not deserve to be joined to one of these women with their filthy hearts.
I hope they keep after the douchebags until they hit 50.
I want spinster tears deep enough to paddle a canoe in.
That’s the saddest point here Rick. You might get some regrets, some grumbling certainly, but ‘spinster tears’ let alone ‘deep enough to paddle’? Dream on Bud. Not going to happen. Not in our lifetimes. There’s an entire support system for singletons now. Hardly any stigma for remaining single forever. No one knows, let alone cares much anymore. There’s no reason to. We live & work differently today. Spinster tears? We’re hardly worth their weight in either gold or much concern in the 19th century, let alone ours. Lizzie Borden, the archetypal sad/ ‘killer’ New England spinster? Lived a mostly quiet trouble free life after, yes, being acquitted of killing her parents. Died with a relative fortune in the bank too. Then as now, ‘spinster tears’ are more obvious & evident in the imagination of some rather than reality. They’ll get along fine without us actually, and the economy is certainly now tilted that way to better support such decisions. From everyone actually. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’
On that score, the Question ‘How to flip a player’? Like this, one of the the most likely scenarios:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/01/mel-gibsons-new-racist-ra_n_632602.html
Cheers, ‘VJ’
Ms. Walsh,
Since you brought up Brown Sugah, I thought to offer a few observations she had on the matter since she read our exchange.
She understands where both of us are coming from, in that while she’s Black she’s also from a middle class and college educated background. She says that my differing perceptions of White/Black folk have a great deal to do with the kinds of expectations each group has, and this is especially true wrt the Women of both groups-simply put, the main reason why there is a noted lack of the kinds of neuroticism that I notice with White Women who makeup the bulk and mass of the internet on the part of Black Women, is because the latter group has differing, some would even go so far as to say, lower expectations of the Men in their life.
I think that definitely plays a huge role here. A great deal of the White Women I read about it, and again it’s bigger than just this one venue, tend to come accross as having extremely high hopes. Then, when reality intrudes, all hell breaks loose. On the other hand, in the main, Black Women don’t do that. To be sure, they most certainly do have their own issues, but it’s different in kind and in scope from what I usually see here and elsewhere.
Anyway, my point is that much of what is discussed here or for that matter over at Roissy’s, simply isn’t a matter of concern in my world. Take the whole question of “female negging” – it’s a foolish thing for a gal to do, because anyone from the hood knows that NO ONE can play the dozens, “snap” or “bust on” another human being better than a guy. Put that together with the realworld potential for brutality on the part of many Brothas (a powerful ingredient of Game to be brutally frank), and we can now see how and why “Ms. Sassy” will get nowhere fast out on the dating market in Black USA. Those Black Women I tend to address? They come from this cohort. I talk about em because I can.
At the risk of getting the ire of some or more of your readers, or perhaps even yourself, I just felt the need to interject my own observations in this regard. My personal experience has been that people are rarely interested in seeing how the other half lives, so much as they are interested in finding those like themselves and giving the appearance that they are cosmopolitan. I truly like to mix it up.
Finally, let me say this – the reason why I said what I did in the first place was because Players wouldn’t be in such high demand if Women didn’t want them. And so long as this is gthe case, nothing any of us can do will make any difference. Like I said, Dragnet hit the nail on the head – so long as a Woman can do thus and so, she will. Usually, not always but more often than we’re willing to admit, Women get their heads on straight only when they’re forced to, usually owing to age, circumstance (one or more babies), etc. At any rate, as you know, Women drive the sexual marketplace. So long as they do, those with Game no matter how acquired, will win.
And we all know that tends to be a rather small number to begin with.
All of this I am cool with. I just want them to STFU about their choices and the all but certain consequences that flow therefrom.
O.
Oh, and Ms. Walsh,
No, I don’t necessarily want or need to hear what you relayed in your parting shot above – BUT THE WOMEN MOST CERTAINLY DO NEED TO HEAR IT. Because they’re the ones who have a vested interest in things here. Women no longer *need* a “provider” so what matters now is a Man having Game, and as others have so often noted, Asshole Game is arguably the crudest yet potentially effective variants out there. It’s also the quickest to learn and implement, don’t take my word for it, ask around. Hence why you see so many guys doing it. And they keep doing it for a reason, because it works.
And that’s just the way the vast majority of the ladies like it. Including quite a few who post/read here.
O.
That does seem to be the general explanation – psycho in bed is hot. Sounds like a business opportunity – bootcamps for “How to have sex like a psycho chick!” Seriously, there is probably something to be learned there – if women could let loose a bit more, get a bit more experimental, at least to the point where they surprise their men, many relationships would improve.
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P.S. Mike, I don’t know if you caught it, but the Female Narcissism post was in response to your question about red flags for women.
Why not actually BE independent and busy some of the time, from the beginning? This strategy will make guys wonder why you’re cooling off suddenly. It may make them feel ardent, but it will also make them insecure. And that has a way of coming back to bite you. If you followed Esca’s recommendations, and were a woman with a full life and good relationships, you still wouldn’t be giving it all away up front.
You raise a good point – often women are sassy, talking back a bit, as an invitation to the guy to show dominant behavior. Men love it, women love it, it’s win-win. Men like taming a filly, and fillies ultimately like being corralled. That’s why the sexual tension gets ramped up.
I agree. Since the whole point of the neg is to mildly attack self-esteem, it’s going to be very threatening to a guy whose self-esteem, at least with women, is shaky. A guy with zero fear of rejection due to a history of pulling girls will likely be amused, and that becomes like a game of cat and mouse.
Ugh, there is nothing I hate more than being out with a couple where one party is putting down the other publicly. Humiliating one’s partner like that is sadistic. I don’t understand why the recipient of this treatment puts up with it. My husband is very laid back, and I am more talkative. Sometimes I interrupt him without even realizing it. If I do that in front of other people you can bet I will hear about it when we get home.
The truth is women do like to be paid for, and men often like to pay. When that’s the case, it’s all good. I think you’ve got it right – it’s about making the offer and not feeling entitled. Also, as you say, women can be generous in other ways. What’s important is that both parties feel they are being treated fairly, and not taken advantage of.
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Re splitting checks, I don’t do that even with other women. We always take turns buying lunch, for example. Couples splitting checks is different, but I just always find it awkward, unless the meal is expensive.
I’m not suggesting that women go looking for cads and try to reform them. The truth is that a VERY high percentage of guys women meet out and about will be footloose and avoiding committed relationships. Players, players everywhere. So here’s a bit of advice on how to handle oneself – and as Dragnet says, weed out the true cads. Every single woman needs some Cad Management tools.
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I like the hunting cat idea – perhaps that’s why older single women surround themselves with cats. It’s their “pride.”
OK, I hear you. I plead guilty to my own kind of myopia. The truth is, I have a fairly sizable (20+) group of college women I speak with frequently. They’re not all connected to one another, they’re from different schools, etc. They serve as my “boots on the ground” in many ways, and they definitely inform my understanding of the SMP as they experience it. The truth is, their experience will include guys exactly like Dragnet and Escarondito, but they’re all from the “chattering classes” as you like to say. I understand that it’s only one piece of the pie. Your blog is addressing a much larger set of issues, and is inclusive of a much larger spectrum of viewpoints, commenters, etc. It’s quite heterogeneous.
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As for high hopes and entitled behavior, don’t miss my post on Female Narcissism
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As for Game, you know that I have no problem with men using it attract women. From my perspective, it improves the lot of women by increasing the number of men who know what we want. The point of this post is that a man with tight Game who is by nature suited to an LTR might be a good relationship prospect if you catch him at the right time. There is no doubt in my mind that both Dragnet and Escarondito will acquire long-term mates and keep them invested, much the way that you and Athol Kay do.
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You’ll get no argument from me re suffering consequences for bad choices. That’s life, and it’s the way human beings learn. One of the things my generation did so badly is not letting our kids figure that out for themselves. We shielded them failure and disappointment and created quite a few entitled and narcissistic young adults. Now they’ll learn those lessons as adults, with women wasting precious fertile years.
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As for Brown Sugah, I wish she would come around, at least on your blog! I can tell she is a smart AND wise woman. And obviously not sassy
I agree completely re asshole game. As I said in the post, young men can literally turn it on overnight once they decide. They start getting lucky, and at the same time start resenting and disrespecting the women who like them now that they’re jerks. It makes them cynical and jaded about women, and many of them never do come back. There are not that many men who can truly understand female nature and still love women
Jeez, I wish Mel Gibson would get hit by a bus. What a terrible human being. You know what surprises me the most? That he was married for so many years to the same woman. He was often held up as the model family man. I don’t know if he went crazy, or always was. Certainly, his bigotry has to have been there all along.
Mel Gibson and many other actors get held up as family men because they are white. The “true” family men like Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Denzel Washington, never get the media play they deserve being absolute family men in an area which always deems to destroy families. Hollywood. Some of the most messed up families in hollywood always have the patriarcs held up as some quintiseential modern ‘good guy’ till he cheats(too many to name), marries his daughter (woody allen), or curses his spouse or children out on tape(Mel, Alec Balwin). Lionel Richie aside. Alot of Black hollywood families live life and you never hear of them in trouble, that is until one fucks up and CNN does an expose on the “death of the black family”……sidenote: Fuck Soledad O’Brien
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
I had to chuckle a bit here. As much as I like Susan’s blog, I’ll admit it’s like stepping into some weird, divorced-from-reality dimension, at times. Apparently, alpha women are attracted to betas—because hypergamy is so obviously bunk…aaaaand slavery is freedom, black is white, war is peace, etc etc. Oh good grief.
To clarify: You, dear girl, are attracted to betas (if that is indeed the case) because that’s your personal preference—not because you are “alpha” or whatever. Hypergamy is still the order of the day for the vast majority of women—especially high-status females…which is why blogs like Susan’s are even necessary.
I don’t dispute this necessarily…but I think a girl’s physical attributes have more to do with whether or not a guy is into it than whether or not she tries to neg or spit Game, as it were. Sure, some of the guys who were “turned off” probably were insecure…and I bet some of them just didn’t find you very physically appealing. You should consider that, even if it makes you feel a little uncomfortable.
I’m not familiar with Samuel Jackson’s family life, but I think Denzel and Will Smith definitely get credit for being good husbands and fathers. They’re in the Tom Hanks mold. Also Bill Cosby. And let’s not forget POTUS (tho not an actor).
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In Mel Gibson’s case it’s especially offensive, because he professes to be such a devout Catholic. Like, yeah, let’s take the Church back to the Spanish Inquisition.
Hi Obs, I just left a comment on your blog. I read the Spearhead comments, but honestly, I feel really uncomfortable over there. It’s the online equivalent of walking home alone late at night in a dark alley. Cue the scary music. I think your post is right on.
War is peace, slavery is freedom, black is white, up is down—you get the idea.
Accepting that this is true, this will absolutely not be true for the vast majority of women in existence. To the young women reading this blog: there is no way to know whether or not you will be the miraculous exception. Do you really want to wait until you’re 39 to find out?
“If a guy is trying to spend a lot of time with you, it probably just means he wants to spend time with you, not that he doesn’t have game or is a player (he could be either, or neither).”
You’ve just described a guy who doesn’t have Game. No guy with solid Game would try to spend too much time with a girl in the initial phase—he would know exactly how to handle this.
Please don’t opine about Game until you’ve read up on it a bit—thanks in advance.
Hi Ms. Walsh,
Coolbeans; and, just so everyone knows, I am no means a one string guitar either; indeed, I’m an equal opportunity offender, LOL. Just got finished addressing the general readership over at The Spearhead in reaction to my recent article over there: http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/an-open-letter-to-the-spearhead-readership/
You and/or your readers are more than free to comment, reply, whaever.
O.
For some of us males, paying gives us a provider buzz. My Dad was this way. Even if it was his birthday, if I tried to pay he would give me a look that said ‘Put your wallet back into that pocket, boy, or I am taking you out to the woodshed later!’. He liked displaying his ability to provide for his family. I am similar. The thing is, the Game community is not entirely off that alot of guys do it just because they think they must and don’t get anything out of it. However there are those of us who enjoy paying for an evening out because it gives us pleasure. In a way, for us, it is something of a display of dominance as we won’t let the woman pay.
And if she just wanted a free meal, well, I can pick up on whether or not she was there for the food or for me; there will be no other dates, I will have escaped dating a user, and she will be the ultimate loser for it.
I think women need to understand that when they find a guy like you, it’s very important to show appreciation. Paying is a form of dominance, a display of resources. And it’s gratifying to men when women acknowledge that.
Exactly. I think if you a look at the set of skills here as a roadmap to tame a cad (or even a pretend alpha) then you’re probably going to be disappointed. A guy with solid Game isn’t going to let you tame him.
The set of skills outlined here are valuable because they dispel the ambiguity and mental gamesmanship that players need to thrive. Stating your needs & desires in a confident, self-assured and straightforward manner (coupled with a dogged determination to keep your legs closed until you are sure he can meet your needs) weeds out the vast majority of players as they will likely just move on to easier prey. The tools outlined here are really tools of self-mastery…which means they will be more or less inaccessible to 90 percent of the ladies reading this blog.
But one can hope.
I think Mel’s Dad finally wore him down. You know people often follow a pattern: They start off like an extension to their parents, then they start to rebel in order to develop their own individuality, then they spend years figuring out who they want to be besides Not-Dad or Not-Mom, and then finally they will settle into a belief system which is a hybridization of what was familiar (the parent’s beliefs) and the positive aspects of the experimental years. So Mel’s father’s beliefs are old and familiar and easy to fall back to.
I also suspect that, off camera, so to speak, Mel has had something tragic occur; he has been behaving the past few years like an angry, grief-stricken man. Or at least, that is the vibe I get from him.
And really, I hope he does not get hit by a bus because he puts more effort into making a period piece as authentic as possible than any other director I know. I kind of view him as a crazy, poo-flinging artist type. Kind of like Van Gogh. Sorta. Ok, maybe I am reaching here as he has not cut off any of his own appendages and given it to a hooker. At least, I have not heard of him doing so.
1) She is black and proud. ie. Bares those sexy, toned and smooth, chocolate arms that even white male commentators called buff (see: CNN’s morning host: forgot his name). Some people don’t like that. 2) She is fiercely intelligent. Some would find that ‘uppity’. I hope I don’t even have to explain that. And, 3) Which alot of people won’t admit. She is a butterface. She does not have the sexiest facial features let’s be honest. But I don’t think many white males like that no one comments on it. What they fail to realize that, atleast for me, I kinda right it off because who else do you know will have a body like that at 46. Let’s be honest obama is keeping fit ballin every day and I’m pretty sure michelle keeps it up and takes it to him in the bedroom.
For anyone who has had relations when your physically fit and your partner is too you know what I’m talking about. Nothing better than sex between athletic people.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
My favorite Mel Gibson movie, though I don’t think he had a role other than acting in it, was Gallipoli. That was some period piece. It also had the effect of making Albinoni’s Adagio in G Minor, which became sort of a poor man’s Pachelbel’s Canon for a while.
I think you get it right, tho I don’t think she’s a butterface, I think she’s quite attractive. So did Barack when she mentored him at his first law internship. As for her body, it just doesn’t quit. She is long, lean and incredibly fit. I think she makes a lovely First Lady.
Of course attitude and carriage is part of it. But, everybody knows, when you think you look good, you carry yourself differently. Ask any woman coming out of the beauty salon with a hairstyle she loves. She even *moves* differently. I’d argue that it’s easier to start with appearance than it is to start with attitude.
I will just point out that as you have observed many times yourself, bad boys get lots more attention than nice guys.
White folks be on some other ish with their issues neuroses.
Haha! Oh yeah, we got neuroses in spades. And the more privileged we are, the more neurotic.
My favorite is Apocalypto. There are so very few movies in that time setting, and he did it so well by recruiting villagers from the area to be actors. And having them all speak the native tongue. It is the first time I really got a feel for what living in such a location might be like… which is pretty scary even without the slavers.
Ms. Walsh,
Yea, I saw it, thanks, that’s what’s up. It hasnt appeared on the Spearhead site yet so we’ll see. Something tells me that it should be quite interesting.
As for Esca’s comments wrt Denzel, Samuel L. Jackson, etc, he’s definitely onto something there. Recall last year’s brouhaha over Chris Brown and Rihanna? Now, when’s the last time you saw Denzel, jackson, Smith, etc, getting that kind of attention?
Here’s another very important take on the matter:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/zora-neale-hurston-what-white-publishers-wont-print/
And why I say that the Obamas are a powerful symbol for a host of very important reasons. They show the world that it is indeed possible to be Black and in love, too.
O.
PS: There are A LOT of White guys in the Manosphere who have what I consider an irrational hatred of Michelle Obama for some reason. They need therapy.
That is, by far, one of the greatest chase movies of all time. The cinematography is unique and fucking beautiful, from the waterfall scene to the ending, to the sacrifice, my god this movie does tone and atmosphere in spades. Not to mention it’s funny as hell, packs an emotional wallop the whole movie, and is done by first time actors. Holy shit, the only reason this movie did not make more money than it did eas because Mel Gibson hates the world. If he learned to choose his words and shut the fuck up I’d let him direct every period piece ever made the way I want Chris Nolan to do every intelligent blockbuster. He has an amazing capability at authenticness that is rare in hollywood where they would rather do it on a movie set which lacks authenticity but is more controlled.
Jesus I’m going to bootleg apocalypto tonight now. That shit is so ill.
escarondito´s last [type] ..New Design- New Initiative
I agree with Susan—show appreciation. Too many women act is if a guy paying is a law of nature. It no longer is.
Esca,
Yea, but they don’t talk about how dowdy Nancy Reagan or Barbara Bush looked, Laura Bush for that matter. There is something else going on here, and I think you know what it is: Michelle Obama has transgressed on the idea of a hallowed place for American White Women, that of First Lady. And for quite a few White guys – usually those who inhaibit the “Roissysphere” – this is a serious point of pain and discomfort for them. Like I said, they need therapy.
I know this may not sound right to say, especially here, but I’m gonna anyway – White folks be on some other ish with their issues neuroses. There, I said it.
O.
Any beta who was taught to pedestalize women since he was 14 is bound to become bitter and jaded when he learns he was fed pure bullshit. IMO most reformed betas who learn Game are cynical and disrespectful towards women realized the hard way that they had been fed bullshit by their parents, teachers and society for years/decades, but deep down they would nevertheless prefer women to get wet for dutiful beta providers who pedestalize them and they get angry when they fail to do so.
Players who never bought all the bullshit about women in the first place don’t seem to be bitter and jaded towards them.
No, no, no, and no. Any player worth his salt—pretend or otherwise—is going to be permanently snagged by some woman who’s most attractive and fertile years (her 20s) are gone. What a woman “knows” about herself and her “potential targets” isn’t nearly as important as how attractive, young and fertile she is. This is to say, she most likely won’t even get an audition if she doesn’t have youth & beauty. It is everything…but it is about 75 percent. That’s huge.
With regards to Esca, I would say he’s good—but his Game could use a bit more work. There were definitely ways of sussing out how long she’d be around for.
“It is everything…but it is about 75 percent. That’s huge.”
Should read: It’s not everything…
Bah.
“They tend to prefer betas who are laid back and manageable, but aren’t slackers. That way, they can wear the pants in the family, but not feel they are with some moocher. The ones I knew were perfectly reasonable seeming with their partners, as long as they had their way, but if not, look out! A bunch of the long-term marriages I am friends with have this dynamic, with the dominant wife running things, and giving the husband some occasional freedom (a once a month golf or video game outing or similar harmless geek vice with friends). ”
This is EXACTLY what I want in a relationship…
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No, they are completely indifferent towards them.
If you believe the way our economy and society are currently structured is sustainable, then you may have a point. But many people would disagree…
And just because pop culture is supportive older, single women doesn’t mean these women don’t shed a few tears in their quiet time. I’d bet half of everything I own that they do—even though it’s a fate I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
Ms. Walsh,
Yea, you make a good point and I realize that personally, I’m a bit odd in that I can thread the needle, and have always admired people who were “all that”.
for example, recently I was talking about Mos Def the rapper and actor, and how while I personally liked him, he always seems to maked whacked albums. Some tried to argue his “highbrow” appeal, and I simply shot it all down with the fact that the Wu has done what Mos has done and then some. For me, it’s important to be hot on the streets, get head nods for the Grammys, AND be critically acclaimed. Then, and only then, can you say that you are truly all that. The Wu Tang Clan can say that. Mos Def can’t.
In Game terms, this means a guy who has that hallowed Holy Grail of traits that you often talk about, and the truth is, very few guys have it or strive to cultivate it. For example, I’m generally known as a nice guy, but it would be a mistake that I am because I have no other choice but to be. Actually, it’s quite the reverse – I can be a ruthless and extremely violent MFer if I have to be, and coldy efficient at it to boot. So, when you see me going out of my way to be cool with folks, trust me, its for their own benefit, because usually, I’m about a nanosecond from taking their head off and pissing down their neck.
Those kind of “killer instinct” traits are what Women in general find so appealing in Men, but the trick is that a guy’s gotta find a balance between that and everything else in life. What i’m finding is that, in the Roissysphere for example, the main reason why find so much sheer virtiol vented at Women is because White Men have been neutered for the most part. I mean, take Roissy himself – he’s a desk jockey, a glorified cog in the wheel. Much of what he talks about doesn’t register for me, because all I’ve done is “Man’s Work” my life, plus I’ve been in quite a few firefights that broke out in bars, been in fights, etc. Roissy hasn’t, and he is by no means alone – millions of White guys are in his spot. Simply put, tere really aren`t many “Alpha Male” avenues left for the middle class White guy anymore. Theirs, in some ways much more profoundly than mine, is a Feminized World. And I think part of the bile that spews forth from Manosphere venues like Roissy, etc, is a reaction on the part of so many White guys in this regard.
Holla back
O.
HAHAHA! LOL, Chili, this cracked me up. I think there are probably lots of guys who would go for it.
Because God forbid a man should want to be anything other than a housepet.
I’m pretty sure that would be a good bet, based on the number of spinster lit memoirs now being published. I think there are very, very few women who prefer to be alone. I know a couple who are fine with it, but even they wouldn’t say they prefer it. It’s just not the way we’re wired.
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There have been several articles recently in the feminist media about how increasing numbers of women are staying single and childless. This is portrayed as a matter of choice. Which is just complete BS. If they bothered to talk to some of these women, they’d learn what’s really driving those numbers. Not good choices, but poor ones.
Yeah, I’ve definitely noticed this uptick in the mainstream media as well. The whole tone of this debate—defensive, somewhat hysterical, hand-wringing—really gives the lie to the notion that these women are oh-so satisfied with the current state of affairs.
What really worries me is that the outcome of this media attention will be an uproar that spurs legislation that will further encourage the worst female instincts/hypergamy, as opposed to taking the correct course—which would be to tell women to shut-up and make better decisions while reforming divorce/family court law to incentivize men to commit. Once the feminists are finished denying that this is even a problem, they will then suddenly embrace it as a “feminist issue” and then attempt to pass laws to make it easier for woman to pursue their reproductive goals—using the tax dollars of the very same betas they just couldn’t stand to settle down with.
It’s coming.
Best looking First Lady since Jackie-O, and just as stylish too. Cheers, ‘VJ’
Cooking for a man is a very good thing. I’m a traditionalist on paying–which means that the inviting party always always always pays for the invited; on dates or anything else. But this doesn’t mean that the man pays for every outing, because the woman can just as easily invite the man somewhere. If she’s “traditional” and doesn’t want to take him out, she can do what her grandmother did: treat him to home cooked meals, organize picnics, or, alternatively, have a “friend” cancel a theater outing at the last minute, leaving her with only two tickets–alas! What’s a girl to do? *
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Sitting around over a bill at dinner splitting things up–even when amongst friends–is not a charming practice.
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Especially amongst relations in which affection is mutual, you’ll find that most people eagerly take opportunities to “pay back” a friend by treating him in turn.
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Dating should be 100/0 and 0/100. (Of course, btw, only a fool of a man invests in expensive dates in the beginning of the courtship).
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*My grandparents wrote love letters to each other and kept journals each independently of the other during their courtship. My grandmother did all of these things to woo my hunk of a grandfather. This was in the 40′s. The journal entries are a lot of fun to read–even if they don’t like that I do so.
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That’s my 2 cents on the “who’s paying” question, anyway!
In the same way that men signal provider when they pay, women signal LTR material when they cook. It’s very un-PC to say so – (remember how Hillary Clinton made fun of women who stay home and bake cookies?) but from the time I was about 16 I found that men were utterly charmed when I cooked for them. Cooking can be a pretty intensive process, so it communicates that you invested time, energy and resources in planning, purchasing and preparing food. Honestly, in my experience, the best dates I ever had involved cooking and eating together, followed by great sex. Nesting.
Hehe… Ok, someone needs to say it, so I’ll be that guy. Men would generally rather pay for dinner and be repaid in “alternative currency.” I heard a comedian recently talking about taking girls to dinner. He said, “Man, I love it when a girl orders the lobster and dom perignon. Cause later on, there ain’t gonna be none of that ‘I’m too tired’ bullshit. When I wake her up in the middle of the night for round three, it’s like… baby, you didn’t see this on the menu? It was a combo meal. Lobster and lots of fucking!”
Which… since we are talking about holding out on sex to try to flip a player, also gives women a reason for going dutch for the first couple of dinners.
Hambydammit´s last [type] ..Can Science Talk About Morality
Oh come on, get over yourself. Some men enjoy being submissive husbands, just like many women enjoy being submissive wives (a concept you wouldn’t think twice about). I would never force anyone to be my “housepet” if that’s what you want to call it, because I’m not attracted to dominant males in the first place. Men who want to be dominant end up with women who are not me, it’s just that simple…
Haha, I guess that’s the surf and turf option. I do think this kind of “bartering” gets pretty tricky, especially in the early days. A woman told me this week that at the end of her first date with a guy she was pretty into, he expressed exasperation when she wanted to go home alone at the end of the evening. They went on a second date – also dinner, he paid again. They made out, and when she said it was time for her to leave, he said, “Jesus Christ, how many times I am going to have to hear this?!” At which point he grabbed her hand and put it on his erection. She made her apologies and left. They had already made plans for a third date, but over the next week he didn’t call. The day of the date, she called him to ask if they were still on. He said, “Yeah, I guess. I’m down to go for a run, but that’s it.” She said OK and spent the night with him. Now he’s as sweet as sugar. He question for me was, “Will he want to hang out with me more now?”
Douche, douche and douche. I don’t think this is going to end well.
Look, it’s fair to say that there are some submissive men who enjoy domineering wives. But it’s disingenuous to pretend as if this phenomenon is equal in quantity to men with more submissive wives—and your statement certainly makes the false equivalency. The former is pretty rare in the sense that’s naturally occuring—it’s only somewhat more common now because men have been socially engineered to reject their own self-interests…
My main objection to it is the simple fact that it leaves the submissive guy without any real compensation for the risks he assumes in marriage. A husband assumes risk in marriage—the very real risk presented by misandric divorce/family courts, and the physical risk that comes with being the protector of his family. The world is a very dangerous place, even in this day of professional armies and police forces. If a man attacked you on the street or tried to break into your house (a very real possibility these days) I don’t care how much of an ‘alpha woman’ you think you are, you would most certainly look to your husband to address the situation. Husbands gladly assume this risk to their bodies and lives in return for having a more dominant role in their homes—-their risk is compensated. I look at submissive men with disdain because they apparently don’t have enough self-respect to demand compensation for the risks they assume as husbands. It is pathetic.
Please note that I don’t have anything against the wives of submissive husbands—after all, life is about getting your needs and desires met. My contempt is only for the men who obviously don’t think they are worth more, and for the terrible lesson they pass on to their own sons.
Meh. That’s lame game. A good alpha would have had her begging him to let her touch his erection at the end of the third date. I mean, both approaches accomplish the same thing, but that guy’s approach plays on negative emotions. Bad way to start. That poor girl is in a bad situation either way. If he stays with her, she gets to babysit a petulant child. If he leaves, well… actually, she’s probably better off if he does leave.
Honestly, I’ve found that whenever I’ve made out with a girl and stopped it before she was ready to, the next time I saw her, it was “go time.”
Hambydammit´s last [type] ..Can Science Talk About Morality
Not true. There are some girls (like myself) that like being pursued hard, and with whom the “cool” act doesn’t work as well — it’s a perception that the girl is in control so she feels more comfortable, which a guy can always turn on its head later on if they’re good at it. Also, I’ve read a lot more than you would think. I visit the attraction forums regularly, so please don’t condescend to me — thanks in advance. And I detect from your two comments a bit of attitude toward me, is there a reason for this? I’d honestly like to know — again, thanks in advance.
Funny, I didn’t even think of that. But in any case, since they initiated the conversation while I was out in NYC nightlife, I don’t really think the problem was that they were not physically attracted. Otherwise, why bother with the trouble of trying to have a conversation?
Faulty reasoning. You’re assuming by mentioning divorce risk that the husband makes more than the wife. What about husbands who marry into money & become stay at home dads? This is a likely scenario from the type of man who would want to be a submissive husband.
The physical risk? We no longer live in a brutal, vicious jungle society so men don’t have to know how to take physical risks like hunting or fishing, or killing other men who would rape their wives. Society acts as that alpha male proxy, so men don’t have to be as manly. I don’t see where men are taking on much, if any, physical risk to be the heads of their household.
On the off chance that someone broke into your home or attacked you, I don’t know many men that could do much against a .45 or a knife in any case. Again, we no longer live in the jungle so modern technology kills much more effectively.
So please, enlighten me as to what kind of risk men take on to be the head of the household.
Yes, because that’s what works. And what attitude could we expect from them anyway? After all, what is there to love about female hypergamy?
So you are essentially saying that the misogyny spreading among white betas is an unconscious reaction to their own feminization, or rather de-masculinization? That’s an interesting thought.
So many posters here accept unquestioningly the idea that Asshole Game is unfailingly successful. I guess I can believe that it is among a certain subset of women whom these types target: not gorgeous women, but gorgeous women whose self-esteem is bound up entirely in external validation. If they run across some guy who doesn’t validate them, and they absolutely crave external validation to feel good about themselves, I can buy Asshole Game being completely successful.
But for a good deal of women, even, I dunno, most of them, I’d argue that Asshole Game is either puzzling or the cause of outrage. If a woman is targeted by someone hoping to use Asshole Game on her, she’ll either be confused–”why is this guy bothering to talk to me if he’s just going to insult me?”–or angry at being treated like crap, because she doesn’t rest her worth on attention from guys and knows not to take crap from them.
Of course, when PUAs and the like say “women in general,” they mean “gorgeous women with self-esteem issues,” so maybe they’re not really interested in how the rest of the female populace would react to these tactics. After all, they’re not gorgeous and not likely to be swayed by such tactics, so they may not as well exist, right?
Eh, I tend to side with VJ on singleton life. It’s really not that straightforward as “single women are unhappily alone,” and it’s a little condescending to agonize about single women crying themselves to sleep when you know nothing about their choices or circumstances. Maybe some of these single women have been divorced already and have absolutely no intention of getting into that mess again. I would also bet a good portion of them, more than you might think, truly have no interest in settling down for whatever reason, just as there are guys who will happily go to their graves unattached. And maybe some of these women would, yeah, prefer to meet the perfect guy and settle down, but haven’t found him yet for whatever reason and aren’t letting that fact cripple them emotionally and are living large and having fun in the meantime.
Also, on Susan’s point, I think we are all wired to prefer companionship. It’s just that people prefer different forms of companionship. Some would feel stifled by anything less than an infinite series of short-term flings, others are absolutely fixated on the one-soulmate-forever fantasy. And yeah, that applies to both men /and/ women.
Susan, I made this point a bit downthread, but I think that while most of us are wired to need, say, companionship, and suffer greatly in the absence of companionship, companionship means different things to different people. For some (men /and/ women), it means one romantic relationship with your soulmate. For others (asexuals), it means great platonic friendships. For still others (men /and/ women), it means lots of hot sex with a variety of interesting partners. People want different things in a partner; heck, some people even prefer having multiple romantic partners (polyamorous types). Human sexuality is pretty interesting that way.
You mention “poor choices” driving women’s singleness and childlessness, by which I guess you mean women making poor choices that have led them to involuntary singleness and involuntary childlessness. I’m not really sure what those poor choices would entail, though. I can think of a few you might have in mind, but I don’t know how you can really condemn them for so choosing:
1. Focusing on career as opposed to pursuing a mate. Well, in this economy, it’s hard to blame women for attending to their own self-sufficiency rather than barreling after a man. Also, if you prioritize finding a partner over your career, land a man and give up your career or opt for something less demanding to make time for love, you place your economic survival entirely in another’s hands, another who could…maybe not leave you (thought that’s a possibility), but fall sick, be injured, die, etc. etc. It seem like a poor bet to take.
2. Settling, or choosing someone you’re not really that attracted to in order to have a partner. I’d think a marriage to someone to whom I wasn’t attracted would be a lot rougher than a corresponding period of singlehood. Also, it couldn’t be much fun for the guy in question, either; wouldn’t he prefer a mate 100% into him? A lid for every pot and all that.
The sad fact is, ultimately, that there is no guarantee of finding a good partner. You can do everything “right” and still come up involuntarily single. Being involuntarily single isn’t always about your good or bad choices, it’s about whether you can find someone you like who likes you back at the right time, and that’s a rarer thing than most are willing to acknowledge.
I’m kind of curious whether these betas would really want these women to settle down with them when these women weren’t interested enough to stick around in the first place.
I mean, wouldn’t it kind of suck to live your life knowing that the woman you settled down with only stuck around out of fear of winding up alone? Wouldn’t it be better to wind up with a woman who thought that you were awesome for yourself, rather than you were just preferable to the alternative?
If a woman isn’t interested in you, she won’t be persuaded into being interested by fear of dying alone. She may be persuaded to stick around in the relationship; heck, a lot of people do this already. Still, I have to think that those relationships kind of suck. Who wants to be with someone where the only thing keeping you together is fear of the alternative?
Men so rarely put the brakes on that this is an extremely effective tactic. She won’t know which end is up, and I agree, she’ll be trying to get sexually validated the next time.
I’ve wondered a lot about this myself. The beta males who are unhappy in the current sexual marketplace are effectively saying that they had it better when sexual and social mores forced women to commit to them due to lack of other options. I suppose if your two choices are involuntary celibacy or being second choice, you’ll take the latter. However, for all this talk of beta males struggling, most of the men I know are happily married betas. I’m not saying college isn’t hard, but I just don’t see evidence that most beta males are stuck in the sexual desert forever.
Lurker, I’m glad you asked me to clarify this point. By poor choices I DO NOT mean focusing on a career, or failing to settle for a man you are not attracted to. I am guilty of both of those choices myself. What I mean by poor choices is repeatedly going after men who telegraph their unavailability for the kind of companionship you desire. If you want casual sex, don’t go for the bible thumper. If you want to marry at some point, don’t go for the guy in the band who has left a trail of broken hearts. When Dragnet talks about female hypergamy, this is what he’s referring to. Research has shown that women are drawn to men with the “dark triad” of traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. These guys get more women than anyone else. Not all women indulge this desire for the high-risk relationship, but quite a few of the women who have written memoirs recently about being unhappily single have confessed (often hilariously) stories of spending their 20s, or even their 30s, chasing after Mr. Wrong.
You raise a good point here. FWIW, I think women who have never married are under a different kind of pressure – family pressure, peer pressure and societal pressure. Once a woman has been married, even if she divorces, I think society gives her more leeway wrt her future. She may decide to stay single or not. I agree with VJ that there is far less stigma single women have to deal with today, but it’s not gone. We make them feel as if something is missing in their lives, and even if they don’t feel that way, they can get to feeling pretty worn down by everyone else’s not-very-tactful inquiries and pressure.
So are there any men who love women, and who earnestly desire a fulfilling long-term relationship with one, after the age of say, 25?
I think asshole Game is most effective in college, when women are hopeful and naive to some extent. Research shows that freshman girls hook up in high numbers, but by the time they’re juniors, many have stopped. Of course, the guys just keep looking to freshman. So the biggest jerks on campus often get the most girls. Keep in mind that Escarondito is only 22.
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As women mature and figure out the terms of the sexual marketplace, most will avoid jerks. The ones who don’t have low self-esteem, as you say. Game was developed in nightspots, and focused on targeting “hired guns,” i.e. exotic dancers, cocktail waitresses, strippers, etc. I’ve always maintained that while Game gets a lot of female psychology right, there’s a spectrum, and the women found in these venues who will put out for some stranger PUA have low self-esteem by definition.
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We know that men prefer younger women, but I wonder, when you see some 40 yo player with a woman in her early 20s, whether the high self-esteem women a bit older would even give him the time of day. He needs to always be going after very young bait, and at some point, he’s going to be too old to pull that off. If he’s 40, he’s just about there, assuming he isn’t George Clooney caliber.
I just find it hard to believe that having a woman who WOULDN’T OTHERWISE CHOOSE YOU shackled to you through social pressure or whatever is DESIRABLE for betas, or indeed anyone. I mean, I wouldn’t want a partner, no matter how gorgeous, if that person was only with me because of a lack of alternatives and not because that person wanted ME.
Hmm. For my part, and purely anecdotal, here, I don’t really see much evidence of this “hypergamy” business. Maybe in college, or in celebrity circles where male celebrities so inclined can find a lot of eager ladies, but everywhere else? Dragnet and co. make it sound as if /all/ women do this, as if they’d all opt for the “harem” experience in a heartbeat, and I gotta be honest, women getting willingly exploited by high-status alphas and signing on to be one of a harem or whatever sounds completely ridiculous, outside of the poly lifestyle (and even there it sounds a bit weird).
As for chasing unavailable men, well, unfortunately, it’s hard to know how good a guy is from the get-go unless he advertises his intentions/lack of availability. I can see a woman getting burned throughout her 20s and 30s not through poor choices or bad judgment, but just bad luck. You can have a string of failed relationships to your name not because you’ve had the bad judgment to choose poorly, but because guys who looked like great relationship material at the time turned out not to be, quite possibly because they misrepresented their intentions, disguised their sociopathic characteristics (which most sociopaths can do quite easily), and so on.
The whole Asshole Game is pretty funny, because I hear stories about women who get upset and insulted after being treated this way by a guy and then realize days, months, or even years later after the fact that he was probably trying to hit on her.
I tend to think that “taming” a player is one of the weirder female fantasies. It sure seems to pop up a lot in romantic fiction and the like. It’s kind of Victorian, in a way, sort of reforming the guy’s bad tendencies through the power of your love or something. Maybe it’s the fantasy of being chosen when so many women before you weren’t, or being loved when he never loved all the women who preceded you, because you’re just that special.
Like most fantasies, though, it’s probably more appealing in the imagination than in real life. In real life, unless you were the most secure person in the world, you’d be totally paranoid about him reverting to his old habits, which, let’s face it, he probably would do after the honeymoon period had ended. Also, once the “thrill” of taming someone has gone, you’d probably realize that your “prize” wasn’t worth the effort. (I’m reminded of something someone once told me: “Cute guys are never good in bed, because they never had to be.”) In addition to that, at the risk of armchair psychoanalysis, he might have some baggage in his past that had led him to this type of behaviour to begin with (maybe, maybe not), and you’d have to deal with that on top of everything else. I’m not saying someone with a high number is necessarily a head case, but once we get past double digits, it gets highly…suggestive.
Go back and read what I wrote—I made no assumption about the earning power of the husband. And family court is biased against fathers & husbands regardless of who made more in the family. Even if the the woman is the primary breadwinner, in the event of divorce she is still the overwhelming favorite to be awarded physical custody of the children, and hence child support as a matter of course. And even in cases where the husband isn’t the primary breadwinner, he is much, much less likely to be awarded spousal support than a woman in the same exact position. The law is biased against men, whether or not they are the primary breadwinner and this represents significant risk. Do some research.
Apparently my uncle didn’t get this memo when he was forced to defend my aunt with a pick axe from her attacker a few winters ago. Or those two women who were sexually assualted in Brookline earlier this summer. The truth is that my uncle would have had bury his wife if he’d waited for the ‘alpha male proxy’ to arrive (it’s good that you’ve read the The Rawness
). The physical risk is surely isn’t what it used to be, but it’s still significant. To pretend otherwise is just insulting.
Then there’s the issue of sexual dimorphism. As an example I’ll cite myself. I’m a fairly big guy—at 6’1 easily taller than the vast majority of the women I met and much stronger and heavier than even the woman who are taller. I—and the vast majority of men—really just can’t imagine submitting to someone much smaller than me, as most women are. It’s not so much revolting or off-putting as it is a non-existent thought process, for lack of eloquence. Believe, I’ve been with a few ballbreakers and ‘alpha’ women in my day who I know for a fact weren’t into domineering men—and I’m not domineering… I’m dominant, playfully, easily, unimposing—and that’s a really important distinction to make. They learned slowly that they weren’t “running things” and that I was going to have more than “occasional freedom” and they quickly learned to love that, despite what they thought they were into before. Like a mighty, rushing tidal wave…that nonetheless breaks against the immovable mountainside. And we were happy together.
In my opinion, men shouldn’t look for submission—I certainly don’t. It’s better to look for compliance if only because that’s a trait any decent man should have as well to some degree.
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