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Hooking Up Incredibly Stupid

Brittany, a student at the University of St. Thomas, has written When Dating Philosophies Collide for College Candy. First she sets us up with the background story. (The red flags are mine.)

“Recently, I met a guy… at work – he was visiting the racetrack with a large group of his buddies. They were enduring a bachelor party so had shimmied over on a nice little margarita buzz. He approached me and asked for my number. He kind of resembled Sean William Scott and was super sweet, like the smell of tequila coming out of his pores on his breath.

Smitten, I scribbled it down, hoping I put the right area code. I didn’t expect him to call me that night because I was convinced he was at his tenth strip joint, but when he called me asking what I was doing my hopes took a high ride. We talked for a little bit, but his bachelor party activities got in the way of us hanging out that night (probably because he couldn’t figure out how to get a thong untied from his face).

And now, this girl needs some serious Dating 101. Unfortunately homeboy didn’t ask me to hang out/go on a date beyond our brief bachelor party convo and now all I want to do is ask him myself.”


Brittany does need some serious Dating 101, but not the kind she thinks. What she’s torn up over is the question of whether she should follow a traditional dating model, or “be a big girl” and go get what she wants.

I always want the man to make the first move, because then I can be sure he digs me. But if I ask him out – I really don’t know for sure if he’s giving me a pity-date just because he doesn’t have the heart to say no.

We all have an itty bitty tendency to stick up our nose and bask in the satisfaction/fantasy land that I’ll be fine, the man I end up really loving will ask me out himself.

Behind Door #2 is Brittany’s big girl argument that she should contact him.

What do I have to lose? You get what you want in life because you go out there and get it yourself. I’ve been riding easy on the quote, “You have to go on a limb sometimes  because that is where the fruit is.”  It really is true; you have to put yourself out there or how are you going to ever know if ‘it was meant to be.’  Guys nowadays like a confident girl who can bust out of the realm and ask someone out.  It is that simple.

Of course, Brittany can’t make a decision without asking her wise co-worker for advice:

I say you ask him. If he say’s yes and he likes you, than great! If he say’s yes and doesn’t like you? That is his problem that he has to sit through an entire movie with you.

Okaaaaay. At this point I’m getting a slight headache and I have the uneasy feeling that I’m ridiculing someone who is mentally disabled. I don’t think I can carry through with this critique. Just for fun, I check the comments. First the women:

CR (F): I am constantly stuck between these two philosophies! One half of me is in entire agreeance with you. But the other half has been known to send some really outrageous text messages and hop in the nearest cab to go after what I want (usually after some liquid courage – but this has never ended badly!)

Grace: Seriously! I think every girl is plagued by this. In college and beyond, it’s all “should I be a feminist and ask him?” and you just never know what to do. I finally sucked it up a few months ago and asked a guy on a date, and he said yes, but apparently it was a no go because he canceled the day before. Boo!

Melissa: Oh god. Cute guy at work asked for my number on last monday. we made plans for wednesday and hung out. Things went really well//we both had a great time. Tuesday night I racked up the nerve aka grew a pair of balls and texted him asking if he wanted to hang out this friday (tomorrow) and he hasn’t texted me back. WTF?

Now the men:

Timothy: If a girl asked me on a date, I’d absolutely say yes. I’m definitely willing to spend a few hours with any girl who has the guts to ask me out.

Manonymous: i don’t think there’s anything “feminist” about asking someone out, but if that’s the way you need to think in order ask out someone, then ASK HIM OUT YOU DUMMY!

A Guy: He was drunk and probably thinking “I have a pass from the GF for the whole night! I’m going to bake up some post-bachelor-party pork pie! So he DID ask you out by calling you. You and the other 49 chicks he hit on that day had an 8-12 hour shelf life, that night only. When you waffled (and you know you did) he kept dialing until he found one that was more responsive. Or he passed out in a pile of puke. The moral is: either tradition or you-ask-him will work, but the clock is ticking!

The guys’ comments make a lot more sense than the women’s, but the hands down winner is…… A Guy.

At the risk of stating and restating the obvious, none of the following are a good relationship prospect:

  1. A guy at a bachelor party at the racetrack.
  2. A guy who asks for your number without preamble.
  3. A guy who reeks of tequila, and who will not remember you tomorrow.
  4. A guy who has never texted or called while sober.

Most importantly, and here’s where Brittany really needs to pay attention, none of the following are a good relationship prospect:

  1. A woman who values a man’s resemblance to a celebrity.
  2. A woman who decides that a man is super sweet because he drunkenly asks for her number.
  3. A woman who doesn’t know her own area code.
  4. A woman who is has high hopes after meaningless drunk dialing.
  5. A woman who believes that a man who she strongly encouraged doesn’t have the balls to ask her out.
  6. A woman who admits to sticking up her nose and basking in self-satisfaction.
  7. A woman who takes unintelligible advice from a female co-worker. Advice that’s even worse than the crazy logic she’s already employing.
  8. A woman who does not seem able to read social cues. If he cancels, if he doesn’t text back, if he never calls again, HE’S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU. EVEN FOR SEX!

This is female solipsism at its worst.

Here’s some useful advice:

Ask the winner out. Ask out the friendly guy who seems interested in what you have to say. The guy who has nothing to hide, and can occasionally be spotted in daylight. The guy who, if you squint and use your imagination, you can see playing catch on the beach with a little kid. Or happily watching a children’s ballet recital.

Finally, what is American college education coming to? The quality of the writing here is abysmal! Are you in agreeance?

One Pingback/Trackback

  • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

    Honestly, this post just makes me wonder. Smitten from a dude who smells like tequila, if I only had the luck. Note to self: less derek luke more scott speedman.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    This guy has romance and commitment written all over him. I’m surprised you can’t see that, Susan.

    We are in a full-on race to the bottom here in America. I myself am sitting by the phone wondering if that homeless guy passed out by the highway will call me to get together tonight. I left my number on the $10 bill I put in his can. It may be he’s so drunk he won’t be able to see or read it. Do you think I should go back???

    • Passer_By

      Imagine how consumed with thoughts of this guy she would be if he had barfed on her. Good thing he didn’t, she probably wouldn’t be able to stop fiddling the bean while obsessing over him. She’d never have time to leave the house.

    • ATS

      Grerp, tut, you should also get a fake tan, bleach your hair blonde and wear f-me shoes after getting breast implants the size of Nebraska. Then you’ll get the ultimate top banana in douchebaghood, Spencer Pratt. Might as well go for the gold.

      Oh heck, I think Heidi Montag heard the snark and is about to come over and smother me with her GGs. Halp!!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      LOL, you’re not far off. I recently read an account of a woman in San Francisco who was dating a guy for a couple of months after meeting him at a house party. He often slept over, but made excuses why he never had her to his place. She acknowledged that he smelled funky some of the time. Yeah. Homeless.

      • PJay

        Not only that……he dumped her…

        http://www.sfweekly.com/2010-03-03/news/girl-game/

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Haha, that was the article I’d seen! I have to say, I do love the term Hobo Boyfriend. I should have included that in my Matrix of Modern Relationships. What I don’t understand is: he smelled bad at the party, and they wound up making out. WTF?

        • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

          Wow, dumped by a homeless guy. There’s something for the relationship CV. I’d want that in print.

    • nothingbutthetruth

      As usual, Grerp nails it.

      Some decades ago, when American society rejected the way things used to be, rejected patriarchy, embraced feminism and sexual liberation, rejected traditional customs and elder’s advice, to embrace Oprah and Sex and the City advice, rejected values in order to chase the mighty dollar…

      … besides all that, something was also rejected and trashed.

      This something was common sense.

      Since then, each year brings new levels of stupidity.

      When you reject tradition, what is left is a million of different opinions which are deemed equally valid. It is no wonder our society is so lost.

      • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

        Thank you very kindly for the props, nothingbutthetruth. :)

  • WiseOne

    Susan, I think you are judging Brittany too strongly. Offering advice to the women who read your blog is one thing. But now you are implying that Brittany’s preferences in men are bad for Brittany. Who knows? Maybe Brittany is not interested in marrying the father of her future children. Maybe the guys with whom she hooks up are right for her and for women like her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hi Wise One, good to see you! You know what? You’re right. I have suggested before that we let the low lifes enjoy each other. If Brittany can keep the tequila drinker occupied, even briefly, that’s some period of time he’s not making a quality girl miserable. If I thought that Brittany was just DTF, then it would be a good strategy. But there’s something quite needy and hopeful in her piece – she thinks this guy might become her boyfriend. That is just pathetic. I wish I could say she’s an unusually stupid girl, but I suspect there’s a lot of this going around, aided by co-workers and girl friends who happily join in the delusion.

      • Snowdrop111

        ” there’s something quite needy and hopeful in her piece – she thinks this guy might become her boyfriend.”

        I agree with this. I do NOT agree with ridiculing her or talking really mean about her…there’s no fun in that for me. However, I agree with another commenter who said the guy was probably only free that particular night.

        I don’t see anything wrong with a guy who asks for a phone number on first meeting. At least it wasn’t at a club (ugh.)

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          See that’s what I don’t get. What is the difference between a good convo during the day and a good convo at the club. Without alcohol involved, why is the club guy considered skeezy? Everyone goes to club to meet and hang out with fun people correct? And if they are fun that night perhaps they will be fun another night or during the day? Atleast that is what logic tells me.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          I agree with you in theory, and I do recommend bars being in the rotation for places to meet a guy. The problem is that many women and men rely on clubs and bars almost exclusively as a way to meet up with the opposite sex. Also, I think lots of people adopt a certain mindset in a bar. You’ll often see people make out in a bar shortly after meeting, but you’d never see that in a bookstore or cafe. I think both the alcohol and the venue relax inhibitions, and that means a lot of the interactions are not going to be the start of anything real, but just fun in the moment. It can happen, and I know several couples who met in a bar. I just think the odds are against meeting someone who is seeking a relationship/not spitting game.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          Gotcha. I anticipate I’ll get alot more girls I’d enjoy a convo with in the bookstore. Hitting up Barnes and Nobles for lunch time

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Honestly, a guy browsing in a bookstore at lunchtime is hot – I’d say that is a DHV. At least for smart women.

        • Snowdrop111

          I would also add in the music. I have been meaning to pester you to compose a post about the lyrics in dance music. But I don’t have time to go into it right now. I listen to a fair amount of dance club music when I am running. So often the lyrics are about letting go of caution, just believing that this will be that magic moment, let the music take you away, oh I can’t think right now but I will try to compile some examples when I get time. Additionally, the sound kind of reinforces the mood. So many of the lyrics (sung by women, I think to appeal to women) are about “Tonight I will make you mine by the power of the spell of the music and the atmosphere…it’s Destiny…the only thing keeping this from being The One True Love Ever is if I don’t get my courage up and go with the flow.” Now, dance music wouldn’t be any fun if all the songs were Paula Abdul’s “Straight Up” or whatever the title of that song is. PROPS TO PAULA though. So many dance songs are about “I threw caution to the wind and THAT’S what cast the magic spell….I BELIEVED IN LOVE” and stuff like that. But the melodies and instruments add to the spell. I don’t have time right now but so much of the music is about Getting Swept Away. I am talking about the songs from the women’s point of view. This kind of music is really big in Europe. I don’t go to dance clubs but I think a lot of the music is calculated to set a mood of Believing in the Magic of the Atmosphere and Being Swept Up, and Letting Yourself Believe and Jumping Right In. It’s almost made into a spiritual thing, the way the music is. I went to a deal this morning with songs for younger girls and it’s the same thing. Believe This Could Be the Moment and Get Swept Up. (Princess thing) I believe this sort of thing creates a mood , but the wrong mood for caution. Not that anything’s wrong with that. It’s the wrong mood for practical judgment or thinking about the future how you’ll feel when he doesn’t call back. It sets a mood for Just Take A Chance. Now I really have to go.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Yes, these kinds of songs fit right into the fairy tale mentality and give women a false sense of reality about female power. The message they project is the exact opposite of pragmatism, which is what women need to hear.

    • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

      But now you are implying that Brittany’s preferences in men are bad for Brittany. Who knows? Maybe Brittany is not interested in marrying the father of her future children. Maybe the guys with whom she hooks up are right for her and for women like her.

      The problem about that is what about the rest of us? If Brittany’s choices only affected Brittany then it wouldn’t matter but she expects the rest of us to pay for her bad choices via taxes/government. Either Brittany does things completely on her own (which she won’t) or the rest of us get to interfere with her life.

      • WiseOne

        I don’t get this. What are the costs of Brittany’s bad dating choices?

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          There’s healthcare costs if she gets a STD. There’s welfare, education, and more health care costs if she gets knocked up and doesn’t abort. etc. etc. It wouldn’t matter if she was paying for all these costs herself but she isn’t. The rest of us do and as someone who is a net taxpayer I object.

    • Aldonza

      Susan is right. This post wreaks of desperation: the kind that comes from wanting more than what is being offered. A woman who is honestly into casual sex (and honest with herself about it) has a totally different vibe about her. She does *not* get all moist over a single drunk guy asking for her number because she knows that for casual sex, it’s a seller’s market and she can pick and choose.

  • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

    You know what sucks about this? I experienced the flip side of this last night. Went out with the boys, drank and played bar games all night. Near the end of the night, I struck up a conversation with (and threw a little Game at) a girl. It went well enough, and by the time my boys were ready to hit the next place, she was asking me if she could give me her number. I told her that me and the boys would be at my house later and that she and her group were perfectly welcome to come by, but they had other after-close plans, so no biggie.

    Now… here’s the thing. I’m going to do the appropriate thing and call her tomorrow and invite her to a cookout at my house (with her friends). I’ll have to leave a message because she won’t answer when I call. She won’t answer because we were both drunk when we exchanged numbers, and 97 out of 100 girls will not even speak to a guy later if there hasn’t been some sort of hookup.

    So it’s a two-way street. There are guys out there who really do get numbers with the intention of calling. But when you girls refuse to answer because you’re embarrassed about giving out your number, or can’t remember part of the discussion, or whatever… you’re missing out on the chance to meet someone who’s trying to contact you sober.

    I could be wrong, of course. She might answer. But probably not. If I see her out again, we’ll pick up the same drunk conversation, and maybe she’ll feel comfortable enough to answer the phone sober the next day, but it’s a total crap-shoot. So if there’s a place where girls need to be braver about talking to guys…. for crying out loud, be brave and talk to the guy you don’t entirely remember from last night who’s calling while sober. If he’s a jerk, you’ll figure it out fast, but the fact that he’s calling sober means he was ok not hooking up with you on the first night. That’s a good sign.

    • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

      I’ve learned long ago that a drunken convo will not lead anywhere most of the time no matter how engage the girl is. I give a test test and when I receive no response I delete her number. Just keep rollin homie.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      97 out of 100 girls will not even speak to a guy later if there hasn’t been some sort of hookup.

      Really? Why is that? I would think a guy calling sober would be a great sign! I suppose if one’s memory was fuzzy, it would be disconcerting, because you couldn’t trust your initial intuition about the guy. However, your calling to invite her and her friends to a cookout? That’s classy. No potential threat whatsoever. I hope she accepts.

      • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

        Agreed. The fact that it is an invite to a group thing with her crew with her should ease fears. But then again, people are flighty, and especially young girls.

      • Athlone McGinnis

        Susan: “Really? Why is that? I would think a guy calling sober would be a great sign!”

        Athlone: In my experience(admittedly limited, so take it with several grains of salt), girls seem to get creeped out by it. Perhaps its just my particular campus environment, but I find that for girls there seems to be a VERY fine line to walk. Following the average drunk conversation/makeout, if you don’t call, you’re just a guy and often times they’ll just forget your name or even meeting you after a short time. You won’t be a jerk per se(she hasn’t had enough time or invested enough in you to make that judgment yet), but just a guy. If you do call, they might remember the meeting, but for some reason they seem prone to think you’re “creeping” on them.

        I tried it once with a girl I’d gotten close to hooking up with. I asked her to a platonic team-sponsored activity and later to a dance for freshman. Shot down both times with BS excuses. Tried texting her, but she always took 3-4 hours to respond. This occured several times throughout the year actually. I’d have a decent conversation and/or come close to hooking up with a girl one night and get her number. I’d try talking to her later(figured maybe we could play pong sometime…or go out later…or just talk and chill) and…nothing.

        To not invest means obvious loss, but trying to invest seems in many cases to just scare them away. Unless your game is very tight(meaning you can walk this line really well) or you’re just a very high status guy, post-drunken conversation/makeout contact while sober just seems like a failing strategy.
        My rule(based on my admittedly limited experience) is this: If it went to a serious hookup level(sexual intercourse of some sort, let’s say), try to talk to her. At this point, she may have invested enough in you that she’d be interested in responding at least and you might not be wasting your time.

        If all you had was a great conversation or a makeout, it might be wiser to just ignore them later. You risk coming off as needy for expecting a continuance later on(at least in their flighty minds). Cute girls in college today get makeouts and good convos all the time(they’re being pursued all the time), so while the great hangout session you had last night may seem noteworthy to you, she can still easily blow you off. Save yourself the trouble and leave them alone unless, by some act of god, they approach you again.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          So basically what this tells me is that college girls consider being ignored after a hookup the final proof that the guy was an alpha. That raises the level of their accomplishment.

        • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

          So basically what this tells me is that college girls consider being ignored after a hookup the final proof that the guy was an alpha. That raises the level of their accomplishment.

          I have always thought it was more of a subconscious way to validate the “truth” that all men are assholes. See, if all men are assholes, then it’s not this girl’s fault that she’s only dated assholes. But if she’s been passing up on the good guys and dating the jerks, then it’s a problem with her.
          So… if he calls, he’s a stalker (translate: jerk) and if he doesn’t call than he was just looking for quick booty (translate: jerk). Therefore, all guys are assholes, so it’s not her fault that she only dates assholes.

        • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

          Oh, and no response from my phone message invite.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com susanawalsh

          Well, that’s just rude. I’m with Escarondito – delete that number. She’s a dead end.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com susanawalsh

          Yes, sounds like the rationalization hamster wheel in full swing. I had another thought today – if a girl or a guy has a drunken flirtation, they may not be inclined to trust it at all the next day. Obviously, it depends on the level of inebriation, but if I couldn’t remember a guy too well, I wouldn’t remember what was attractive about him. In other words, the tingle is not going to last 12 hours through a hangover. If you can’t recall the tingle, you’ll just dismiss the whole connection.

        • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

          One of my favourite movies is Someone LIke You. First of all, Hugh Jackman is foxy. but one of the scenes that spoke to 15 year old me the most is when Jane starts explaining her self to Hugh Jackman…”If men don’t leave women Eddie, than they just leave me” It’s hard to look at the situation and go “it’s not them, it’s me.”

          First of all, I’ve never been turned on by booze on a boy’s breath.

          I also hardly ever pick up a number I don’t recognise on my phone – however, I do call people back if they call me and leave a message.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Deidre, that’s a good point. A woman may be less likely to answer if the name wasn’t programmed in. Also, if a woman sees a missed call on her phone with no voicemail, she is very unlikely to call back. Young people seem to hate voicemail (when I leave one for my kids they just call back without listening to it). But in a situation where you’ve only just met, it’s a good way to signal a friendly and open interest.

        • http://ft.com VJ

          Bingo!

        • http://ft.com VJ

          It’s a massive problem of missed communication. One involving several $100′s worth of communication devices in your pocket too. Why do guys so seldom leave voice mail messages? Because just like the ‘little mermaid’ voice mail of yore, it can and will live on in eternity. At the very least it’ll be played for an audience of friends who’ll parse every word spoken, the intonation & the sound of their voice. All too often he’ll be collectively judged as simply wanting that ever elusive ‘something’ As in, ‘Gee he sounds just too sad/frustrated/angry/ creepy/douchy/desperate/lonely/nerdy etc, whatever’. And then it’s done. Gone.
          Again, It’s all about choices, and the young women are in the drivers seat of selection for most of their youngish years. Until they’re not. This is why it was supposed to be easier with email & texts too. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

          But the games gals can and will play with the phone? Legendary, even back in the day, the average ‘return’ rate was low, (unless you bugged her parents, BTW), and the length of time might stretch into weeks. Guys (and most humans) have short attention spans mostly, and this fact has been massively rewarded & catered to by the new media. Don’t feel like answering that strange call or text? He’s got more entertainment options available. They’re cheaper, ready ‘at hand’, and not too complex enough that he can not ‘master them’ & enjoy gaming. He can oder in, play on line with his buds, and he need never think of female companionship for the next days/weeks/months/years. Rinse & repeat.

          This in particular is a poor example however. But again it’s all about the choices we make. Like drunken louts & the lovely things they do to & for you? Chase after them! Geez. Cheers, ‘VJ’

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          For the record, when a woman is really into a guy and gets some form of communication from him, the girlfriends can spend a whole evening analyzing it. A four word text can keep four women occupied for hours. Personally, I think texting is the worst. For most guys it’s meaningless, and for most women it’s all-important. This is a recipe for disaster. The answer is: Communicate! Talk to each other, ask questions until the meaning is clear, and don’t drag the carcass of the conversation over to your friends to nibble on. People need to be a lot more private, especially women.

        • http://ft.com VJ

          Ah, but this falls into yet another ‘Catch 22′! Everyone probably wants More & Better communications. But how to get there? Try getting any youngish woman on the Phone to actually speak to her during your allotted 1/2 hr. ‘lunch hour’ or when out running errands? Always it’s only Voice Mail hell once again due to the ever deadly ‘unrecognized number’! Again, it’s often a week long project. And much of the time? No one has the time or stamina for it all anymore, so it’s on to the next ‘easier’ prospect. FOR EVERYTHING. This goes for just meeting for coffee, ‘dating’, or a LTR! If you’re all too unavailable? Someone else will be more available. Something else will come to occupy the time you could have been spending together communicating.

          Ditto for the time & place restrictions. For all too many of a certain age set, (think slightly older), if you want to communicate ‘one on one’ with a woman? You’ve got to ‘set her table’, alone. Pull her away from friends, pals, wing gals & Sarges et al. You’ve got to either bring dinner, take her to dinner for a full & rare ‘date’ or at least bring some wine someplace ‘quiet’. (Which is getting ever harder to obtain in modern life). So for many women, sure they really want to ‘talk’ to the guy & find out about him, but just about only on her terms. You often pay. To satisfy her marginal curiosity. Or more likely just her dinner time hunger.

          Communication is complicated! When it’s not? You’ve often hooked onto one of those ever cute but dangerous unemployed ‘alpha’ cads who’ve got all the time in the world to game you & several others. And suddenly you’re in a harem for years trying to explain to dear ol’ mom why ‘you never meet any decent guys’! And the cycle is complete. The well practiced Cads? They know how to best monopolize your time as effectively & efficiently as possible. It’s always the ‘work a day’ stiffs who get short changed. Working longer hours to try & keep above water in a Depression era economy, they’ve got a few spare minutes a day when they might be able to sneak away from work to answer a ‘personal call’. The gals? They want the 2-3 phone calls of ‘telling’ voice mail before even deigning to return the call or the text in any substantial manner. They liked being chased after all! The ‘normal’ working guys, exhausted from working 2 jobs, they want relaxation & ease of use recreation. You’re just not it. Not now, and likely not ever. Ergo 20% of the total will remain unmarried. Not all of these will look like 2-5′s either!

          It’s a very limited window here for most purposes folks. If you’re unmarried @ 40? The chances of you getting married is now very low. And for plenty of folks, that’s just fine! Or it becomes so with age. What do you ‘bring to the table’? Complications if you’re anyone over the age of 36 say, most likely! Cheers, ‘VJ’

        • Aldonza

          I have a rule that I don’t take phone numbers. Smart PUAs have a similar rule. I advise anyone (male or female) to playfully offer the number, but tease them about it before actually giving it. Giving a phone number instead of taking one puts the impetus on the other party.. If they call, you have the room to appear more aloof and “alpha”. You can be the one delaying response.

    • 108spirits

      Hah. That’s a very typical experience for men. Numbers that you get while out at a club or pub are useless. 97% seems about right. Girls never respond afterwards, or in the rare case that they do, they never follow up to meet again. This teaches men one thing: if the iron’s hot, strike, i.e go as far as you can on that same night. Go for glory before you go for the number. And if you have to get a number, only contact her if it’s another party night-out.

      It doesn’t really make any difference how sober or drunk you both were, or meaningful & deep, or fun the interaction was.

      I don’t know what kind of college aged girls you talk to, Susan, but you seem pretty out of touch on this one. If you want to make sure the nice well-mannered girls aren’t collateral damage of this, you have to get them to be more proactive in stamping this behaviour out. If their girlfriends pull this crap on guys (and I’ve seen, many times in person, groups of girls giggling at a text or phone call from a guy one of them gave the number to the night before) they need to speak up. Because that’s primarily the reason why the cute guy they gave their numbers to never call: he knows that it’s very likely he won’t get a response, and he’ll be made a laughing stock to her friends.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        108, I am surprised that numbers given out at a bar are 97% useless, so perhaps I am out of touch on this. Certainly Mystery had a much higher success rate than that, though even he had numbers go “stale” regularly. I think there are a couple of things going on here:
        1. What are you looking for? It sounds like your priority is getting laid asap. In that case, absolutely, your best bet may be riding some sexual chemistry straight to a hookup in one night. It happens, a least with a certain variety of woman.
        2. “Nice, well-mannered” girls do go to bars with their friends, and they are open to meeting men there. They will however, be wary of any behavior that seems the least bit shady. They also worry that guys will assume they are DTF. A call that’s about meeting up late night, or partying out is going to be viewed with a lot more skepticism than a call suggesting a date.
        3. Women don’t give their numbers out to guys they’re not attracted to. They’ll either say no or program in a fake.
        .
        If a woman flakes after giving you her number, it’s most likely :
        a. She was drunk and no longer trusts the judgment she made.
        b. She has a boyfriend, and has pulled back from the idea of cheating.
        c. Your contact did not make you seem like a good guy with honorable intentions.
        d. You came on too strong – trying to turn a number close into an F close too quickly.
        .
        The best thing a guy can do after getting a woman’s number is text her later that night saying it was nice to meet her and sleep tight. Then follow up the next day.

        • 108spirits

          Mystery and other top PUAs have admitted that their hit rate with numbers is only about 10%. Obviously nobody (including myself) sits down to do the maths, so when we bring up stats like 97%, it means phone numbers acquired at clubs are most often useless.

          As for my intention, I’m the same as most guys out there: we’re looking for an attractive girl that we like enough to date and maybe get into a relationship if it’s right. Of course we wouldn’t turn down the chance to get laid if it’s just that.

          I’ve done the things you suggested, and I know that there was mutual attraction, but that alone isn’t enough to guarantee that she will not flake. With regards to your list of flaking, sorry but you really do appear out of touch with the scene. I can list a few dozens more excuses that girls have for flaking. One of my favourites was a female friend flaking on a guy because she had some small bruise on her back that she didn’t want him to see (and how could he, unless they’re going to sleep together on the first date?), then decided not to see him again because she was embarrassed about it.

          What I did learn (after asking more experienced guys for tips) is that if I tried to hook up the same night, taking it as far as possible, there’s a much better chance she’ll meet up with me again. And yes, that’s worked for me. I’ve also seen in person many times how groups of girls (up to mid-30s) sit together judging a guy’s follow-up text or voice mail, pointing out millions of his imagined flaws. It’s their favourite pastime.

          That’s the reason why experienced fellas would advise us to go for gold on the same night, because we’d have no chance against such overanalysis and group-think BS.

          Anyway, I eventually learned that the club scene isn’t for me so I switched environment a while ago. Girls don’t act the same with regards to numbers & flaking outside of the club scene.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          As for my intention, I’m the same as most guys out there: we’re looking for an attractive girl that we like enough to date and maybe get into a relationship if it’s right.

          I’m not sure this is the same as most guys, especially those in clubs, but I commend it. I confess I am not up on the club scene, and my readership tends to be single women under 30, for the most part.
          The behavior you’ve witnessed among groups of women ridiculing men is selfish and shallow, and I’m sorry to hear it is so commonplace. Why women would blow off men they felt attracted to just a short time before is beyond me – talk about sabotaging yourself! For women in their 30s to be acting this way defies reason. The women who do this deserve exactly what they’ve got – a group of friends all in exactly the same boat, with no relationship and no ability to sustain one.
          I understand why one would want to go for gold in one night with these women, but I can’t imagine a guy would even want to have anything lasting with women who behave this way.
          It sounds like you made the right choice to get out of the club scene. It’s fine to go out with friends and be open-minded, but it’s not very fertile ground for finding something real, IMO.

        • Sox

          I’m not sure it applies to most guys either, although most of my guy friends do fall into this category.

          My ex roommate happened to be one of those girls who would give her number out to at least 5-10 guys a night when she was out drinking. Her reasoning- “I felt bad”. She even went on dates with some of them while admitting she wasn’t that attracted to begin with. She’s also made her way through a group of guy friends, sleeping with one after another. Guys that are mellow are “too boring” for her. She’s slept with 3 guy friends in a 24h period, and 2 of them were even roommates. And yea, I’ve seen her break out her phone and make fun of the texts she’s receiving from the dudes she talked to the night before.

          I’m only bringing this up because I’d always thought this kind of girl was an outlier, but I’ve run into many others like her in my age group lately. I would never, ever want to put the effort in for an actual relationship with her. I’ve listened to she and her friends employing similar logic as the girls in your post.

          Anyway, the concept behind “going for the gold” the first night is to maximize the amount of investment the girl has in you. The more invested she is, the less likely she is to flake. It is a little counterintuitive though if you are actually looking for a relationship, because any girl that sleeps with me on a first date usually loses her chance to be a LTR prospect.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          Well I completely agree that most girls do the dissecting of texts the next morning at lunch with their friends and snicker. I’ve never truly understood that. Was it brought on by carrie and the girls on sex and the city? Or was this always the case. Either way, it always seemed stupid to me because it was like do you guys feel superior to those men doing this? Is this what women have strived for in terms of equality? So their daughters have the right to laugh at men who become interested in them? Maybe I’m reading it wrong and female readers (which I am noticing more guys comenting than ladies, where you at?) can let me know where I veered off course, but it always looked like girls love to clown out guys the next morning and “pity” them the night before. But in my opinion, anybody who manipulates someones interest to feel better about themselves should be pitied. Cause there must be a WHOLE lot of stuff wrong with you if that makes you feel god about yourself.

          Also, Sox dude let’s be for real. Your roommate was just a slut. Hardcore too. 3 guys in a 24 hour period is called the “triple crown” and it is just ridiculous. I’ve done 3 in a 24 hour period and even I called myself a slut. We’l always get that morning after chat with most girls but banging a friend circle with no shame is just whorish. Even Lena Chen thinks so.

          And on a sidenote: I don’t like the fact that lately everytime I’m on here I see majority of men commenters. i like white and nerdy’s input but I feel this site best caters as a discussion between the sexes. This issue of brittany and the morning after numbers discussion definetely seem like an issue where men don’t really cause the problem but with mostly men on here it feels like women bashing sometimes and I don’t like that ish. It breeds ignorance. So I hope some women who don’t fall into tl;dr read up to this point and make your viewpoints more known in these discussions.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Escarondito, I’ll second that re men and women commenting. This is a very difficult balance to strike. I know so many women personally who read every post, and every comment, and they feel shy about weighing in. I’m not sure why.
          1. I think sometimes women do feel criticized by the commentary – you may have noticed that Meg (who has been a regular since Day One of this blog) thanked Mike for being positive toward women.
          2. Another factor is age – commenters tend to be older in general than the overall readership. You’re an exception, and there are plenty of others, but honestly, just getting people under 25 onto a blog is challenging.
          3. Getting them to comment is another thing altogether. I’ve read that only 1% of readers comment on blogs, and I think that’s about right here too.
          4. I think many young women are perplexed, frankly, by the discussion of the ills feminism has wrought. And also by the way in which we discuss the nature of female sexuality. These ideas are new to many young women, and I think they’re food for thought, but it’s hard to jump into a discussion if you feel like a complete noob.
          In any case, I appreciate your encouraging the women to speak up! I’ll continue to exhort them to do so in posts, as well.

        • verie44

          Part of the problem is that when women post something that isn’t in agreement with some of the male posters, they jump all over it and want to prove how the person is wrong. Maybe it’s just my writing style, and I’ve definitely been argumentative all on my own, but quite a few times I was just voicing an opinion with no intentions of sparking any controversy and some guy got all pissy about it. While I’m fine to keep up the argument & staunchly defend my points (it’s a non-emotional thing for me and is more to see if I can outwit the other person), not every girl is like that. In fact, I’d venture to say most aren’t. They’d rather not comment & be attacked.

          What this means for the blog, I’m not sure, because I feel like everyone has a right to their opinion.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          This is difficult to navigate. I want a free and unfettered discussion, but I don’t want the tone getting too strident. I’m guilty of getting into pissing matches myself, and I kick myself for it afterwards. I haven’t figured this out completely. In the past I have banned commenters who spew vitriol consistently.

        • Snowdrop111

          I’m a woman; old, but fine, I’ll comment.

          I think part of the issue is alcohol. I think some of those women are scared to talk to a guy WITHOUT it. I have read some articles stating that many college aged women have never had sexual encounters sober. There are also a spate of studies on how pressured women feel to be “perfect,” especially college women. I think they feel like they need alcohol to overcome the fear of being “lame.” I also think they are afraid of what their friends will think, and hang with their text-ridiculing friends out of fear of defying their clique of text-ridiculing friends.

          How to change it, I don’t know. I’d say meet people in a place that takes alcohol out of the equation. Meet a girl sober and maybe she’ll be the type who likes everything sober, including getting to know someone new.

        • Sox

          Haha, fair enough. She earned the title. But her friends only encourage it, and her whole circle participates in the same behavior. I have another roommate that acts the exact same way but just isn’t attractive enough to pull the same number of guys.

          What blows my mind even more is that the guys actually put up with this crap. Bro code seems to be lacking nowadays too. I know I won’t start hooking up with a girl who just dumped one of my close friends a week before. Even after these guys know what she’s about, they’re still being chumps and trying to date her.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          I have noticed that the application of the Bro Code is extremely uneven. In some circles, the guys absolutely will not go there. In others, it’s every man for himself, and the guys don’t even wind up discussing it. I’m not sure what determines this. It does seem, though, that in the cases where friends, or even brothers (!) date or hook up with the same girl, it doesn’t threaten the friendship. Or maybe it just becomes the elephant in the room, I don’t know.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          The guys aren’t necessarilly being used. They are probably laughing about it to each other. I remember I had this girl i knew freshman year who hopped from one bed after finishing with a dude and hopped into the next bed with his roommate. And remember this is a freshman dorm where the beds are 5 feet apart from one another.

          She thought that it was funny how she played the two of them, but I didn’t have the heart to tell her everyone in the dorm knew she was a whore, and everyone in their major and pretty much our whole class new she was a whore within the next month. Countless times she thought she was doing the dirty and no one noticed. There is just a level of delusion in that girl I can’t fathom. But anyway, she may laugh with her friends but I think no matter how grand the delusion she MUST know that the friends are simply taking turns with her. it sounds bad but hey it’s how she portrays herself. I want to know if they are really catching feelings and trying to turn a hoe into a house wife or they are just trying to put in quarters into the whack-a-hole game?

        • Sox

          In this case, I know 3 out of the 4 cared. In 2 of the cases it was, “I don’t care that she’s hooking up with someone new, but a good friend of mine?!” I don’t know if it’s affected their friendship or if he’s putting the blame solely on her.

          Those 3 guys actually did want to date her, which is the part I can’t understand. I do understand the passing-around mentality much more.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Exactly! That’s the Catch 22. I think the moral of the story is to try to meet women in other locales. It’s harder without alcohol in some ways, I know, but easier in others.

        • http://ft.com VJ

          As noted by 108S above: “I’ve also seen in person many times how groups of girls (up to mid-30s) sit together judging a guy’s follow-up text or voice mail, pointing out millions of his imagined flaws. It’s their favourite pastime”.

          Anyone who’s missed this artifact of modern life, has never really observed the species closely. But be that as it may, this is a massive ‘Catch 22′ backwards & forwards. It Justifies the behavior for the women, and then further reinforces it & condones it among her peers. It becomes a rational expectation, due to their interactions with various subjects/targets & shared experiences. Ergo, she might happily have all the ‘guilt free’ FWB sex she wants w/o any regard to relationship status, simply due to her confirmed belief that ‘all guys are A-holes’, & ‘they never call back’, so ‘why bother’? Why even make the effort for those ‘losers’? Just pick out the relatively cute ones, get ‘carried/swept away’ every other weekend & just enjoy yourself. Delete any ‘strange numbers’ as you’d never really want to make the effort at having a significant relationship with these ‘barflies’ anyway! Viola! Your rationalization sequence is complete & nearly flawless. The internal logic’s airtight.

          There’s a dynamic that few are talking about. Especially for all those who actually demand ‘to be called back’! No texts or email Allowed. Nothing but the best 19th century tech for our ‘special cases’! Yeah, how’s that all working out? Cheers, ‘VJ’

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Ah, I see you beat me to this point. I think women can and should make their aversion to texts known. I don’t think young people email anymore – perhaps the Facebook message has taken its place. The truth is that short messages, by definition are cryptic. Since this greatly increases the odds of misinterpretation, it’s never good. Texting should be reserved for:
          Be there in 10 minutes.
          Are we still on for 7?
          etc.

        • http://ft.com VJ

          Yes, agreed, but as I mentioned above the preferred 19th century technology ‘Phone’, essentially is a weeks long ordeal for most guys. Due to how the gals typically want to use it. We might as well write a snail mail letter. It’ll get there more quickly. Except no one actually answers mail of any kind anymore! Yet another Catch 22, right? Cheers, ‘VJ’

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          I don’t think it’s just women to blame for this. Guys often express that they like texting because it eliminates the possibility of an in-person rejection. They also make use of the technology to send group texts. As many as 20 girls might get a text saying, “Hey what are you up to tonight?” Women know this and are wary. Hell, everybody’s wary except those charming unemployed cads and the ditzy Girls Gone Wild.

        • verie44

          I actually disagree with this too. Women definitely will talk / flirt with guys to boost their ego and then when the guy asks for their number assuming they’re interested, the girl won’t be able not to give the number since she was so misleading. But she’ll never call back.

          Guys do this too though — they often hit on girls who are “practice” just to see if they can get their number. A lot of times if a guy doesn’t call you, you were just one of his practice girls. This post explains it pretty clearly (I love best of craigslist): http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/chi/1226208791.html

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Wow. That’s a great post. Might have to put that up. Thanks, verie, you’ve just introduced me to another stellar way to waste hours at a time. I just read about six other posts before I could tear myself away.

    • Snowdrop111

      ” She won’t answer because we were both drunk when we exchanged numbers, and 97 out of 100 girls will not even speak to a guy later if there hasn’t been some sort of hookup.”

      Are you kidding?! The only reason I can think of for that would be if she is afraid or something.

      There’s a possibility she is afraid what her friends would think… which is very lame … you could try to invite her to something light and no-pressure one-on-one, outdoors in public, in case it is either of those kinds of fear (is he Jack the Ripper, or what will my friends think)

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    Man…there is jsut something about these types of things that my skin crawl.

    The last comment in the men’s list has a point here – and I agree that the guys seem more on target. There’s something about women enabling each other. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it too at times, but at the same time – you’re not really helping when you say things like that.

    And as to how we should go after the guy we can see playing catch on the beach with a little kid or sitting through ballet recitals, etc. vs. tequila boy – the former is the kind of guy I’m chasing at the moment myself. He’s made all the more attractive to me because I see him with kids at work all the time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, a guy being good with kids can definitely generate attraction. GudEnuf shared just such a story recently. Women may like socially dominant men, but it’s not the only thing we’re going for. I think it helps that even shy guys find it easier to open up and be themselves, i.e. demonstrate confidence, when they’re with kids. The pressure is off, and they can demonstrate higher value without even trying.

  • Maggie Noodles

    If I were a young American woman here’s what I would do. After graduating high school take a year off to work a full time job in order to save up enough money to travel the world the following year at the age of 19-20.

    There is so much culture, adventure, excitement out there to experience and the best time to do that is when you are young before you get plugged in the matrix.

    And once you get a taste of “foreign romance” you’ll never do Taco Bell ever again.

    LOL.

    SRSLY.

    • 108spirits

      This is very popular with Aussie girls. After high school, or even half way through uni, take a year off to travel the world (on a working visa if money’s tight).

      Meanwhile, Aussie guys know that “culture, adventure, excitement” are codewords for what guys in the Blogosphere call “riding the foreign cock carousel”.

      As for romanticizing foreign men in general: http://www.theonion.com/articles/european-men-are-so-much-more-romantic-than-americ,11552

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Actually, when I was traveling, I met a lot of Aussie guys going on “walkabout.” They’d spend 6-12 months staying in hostels and getting by cheap. Those guys were strictly about the one-night stands as far as I could tell. And who could blame them?
        .
        That Onion article is hilarious. I really did laugh out loud when the Italian guy described the American women falling right back onto the bed with their Birkenstocks in the air.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hi Maggie Noodles, thanks for leaving a comment. I did spend one summer doing what you suggest and it was a lot of fun. And yes, foreign romance was appealing in the short-term. However, I’m pretty sure that the cute guy with a beard and curly black hair on the west coast of Ireland was not husband material. Nor was the Parisian who I met when he walked up to me on the street to offer me a bouquet of jasmine he’d just purchased. Great memories, yes, vacation romances, but this is not what real life is made of. A romance while traveling is a fling, not a life-altering experience.

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  • Kylie

    “AGREEANCE”!!! Thanks for commenting on that one!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, yeah that was the worst example. In general though, Brittany’s writing is even worse. I don’t understand how the hosting site could let that fly, with no editing. Just embarrassing.

  • Maggie Noodles

    Well, I ended up marrying my foreign fling!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha I love it, I stand corrected! Tell us the details!

  • Maggie Noodles

    We met, befriended one another. I was looking for a cheaper place to stay, he invited me to his “estate” as they call it. I rented a room from his mother. It was a big house on a big orchard and quite a lot of family members lived there. The family grew to love me and I them. I returned to the States. He sent me a letter asking me to marry him and relocate to his country and I accepted, except that I arranged for him to come here. Now we divide our time between his country and mine and life is just grande!

    EAT LOVE PRAY film is premiering next month. I suppose the manosphere will go crazy blogging about it because a middle-aged American woman trades up her boring 9-5 suburban/urban life and boyfriend/husband/partner to refind her “passion” through travelling and in travelling finding an exotic foreign lover.

    All I can say is, “it worked for me.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s a great story. Re Eat Pray Love, as I recall the woman was unceremoniously dumped by her husband, who had already replaced her, so I hope no one begrudges her her newfound happiness.

      • Maggie Noodles

        Well, from the trailers it looks like she has a “boyfriend” she’s dating in the states, her life is empty and passionless so she gets her spiritual groove on in India, her food and culture groove on in Italy, and her adventure/excitement/exotic lover groove on in Bali.

        Sounds like a good recipe to me! I’m a big fan of the globe and loathe mundane monotonous living.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          That does sound like a good recipe! Sounds like they may have changed the book a bit, which is typical of Hollywood. Also, spoiler alert: Elizabeth Gilbert has a new book out, which is the story of her marriage to said exotic lover. I love happy endings.

  • Kurt

    The woman in that story sounds like an idiot. From what I can tell the only thing she really liked about the guy was his physical appearance. She must have very low self-esteem.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I agree, but I think a lot of women deceive themselves in this way. I often hear attractive, smart and amiable young women rationalize being treated poorly. They expect so little. Several men here have said that women get treated the way they allow themselves to be treated. I agree with that. Somewhere along the way, women started sending men messages that this kind of behavior is all they require in the way of romance or courtship. If a woman holds out for more respectful treatment, she’ll get less attention from guys. But she’ll eliminate the cads and players. This is the smart strategy, but it requires patience and a long-term view.

      • verie44

        Not everyone has the strength (or maybe the options?) to walk away from what they want. I did it recently and while I’m glad I didn’t put up with bad treatment (this was “cancel an hour after we’re supposed to meet” guy), it was still hard to let him go. I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it. But in the end, it’s better to kick them to the curb than rationalize “He was having a bad day.” That turns into “oh, he’ll call me,” which turns into “why is he talking to other girls in front of me” which turns into “oh yay! finally! a booty text!”

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          I had to laugh, but honestly? I have seen so many women be delighted to report that the guy they like texted after the bars closed to meet up. I understand the temptation, but women must wrestle with that so rational decision making can prevail. Because those “relationships” NEVER end well.

        • Snowdrop111

          “which turns into “oh yay! finally! a booty text!”

          Although I am sorry for any (very temporary) feelings of disappointment you may be experiencing, this was very witty and gave me a chuckle, so thanks.

        • Esau

          I’m glad I didn’t put up with bad treatment …, it was still hard to let him go. I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it.

          .

          Do you think it’s just a coincidence, in this case, that you wanted someone who treated you badly? How often does this happen, compared to how often you find yourself attracted to decent guys? Just for your own purposes, you need to face squarely the question of whether you really do tend to find bad character attractive. Once you’re honest with yourself, you’ll be better equipped to plan your future successfully.

        • verie44

          Um, you’re missing the point here Esau. When I say I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it, I mean I wanted the guy I had dated the first three times back. I didn’t want the asshole who showed up on date four, that’s what made me end things. I wanted to rationalize that he was really the guy who had showed up the first three times (thus the “he’s having a bad day” comment), but I listened to my head instead which said that he was actually the guy who showed up the fourth time.

          The PUA I dated, same thing, things were going PERFECTLY until he started his asshole game & I figured out he was manipulating me. I was out of there then because I don’t like being treated badly. The time it took me to leave was due to me trying to figure out whether he was really the guy who was starting to be an asshole or if he was the guy who started out so nice & sweet.

          The longest relationship I’ve had (which I would still probably be in if I hadn’t moved) was with a very honest, straight-up guy who treated me wonderfully, no games, no BS.

          So no, I think assholes are attracted to me (and every girl, really — they tend to play a numbers game) but I don’t think I’m particularly attracted to them.

      • Kurt

        If she’s very emotionally damaged, she would probably actually be very suspicious if she ever did meet a man who did treat her well. It’s sad that many women think something is wrong with a man if he treats her well.

        I suspect that the woman in this article is very fat or physically unattractive in some other way. It seems like she really appreciated the attention from that drunk man as though it were a novel thing to her.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Believe it or not, many very attractive women behave this way. They’re often referred to as “Girls Gone Wild.” They find the attention validating, even though it’s fleeting and not based on anything but the man’s sex drive.

    • Snowdrop111

      “From what I can tell the only thing she really liked about the guy was his physical appearance.”

      Not many people talk about this, but sometimes (often) I suspect that part of it is what their friends will think. It’s not *just* about a guy’s looks but his refinement, social position, etc. Some women will make digs at other women right in front of the group if someone’s new boyfriend doesn’t fit some part of the “desirable” image. I know guys do this too…but women do it too. A long time ago, the very first really sweet guy I dated (in one particular department) after a nightmare abuser, had one “drawback” in some people’s eyes. He had so many good qualities that I was OK with this “drawback.” But what happened? To my surprise, my “friend” waited till she was with another friend of hers, and snarked on my new boyfriend’s one “drawback.” I didn’t let it affect the way I felt about my new boyfriend, but I made a mental note that that particular “not really friend” either didn’t want me to have a boyfriend, or would rather see me with an abuser who didn’t have the “drawback.”

      To sum up, sometimes when women want “the whole package” (Mr. Perfect who doesn’t exist) it may be because their “friends” will make digs at them over some aspect of the new guy. I am not sure if that’s harder for women to stand up to, or for guys if the other guys make a “dig” about the new girlfriend.

      • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

        It’s more of a rare thing, atleast in my experience, for guys to make digs at a girl right in front of the group. Unless she is suppppeeerr ugly. But I had a friend who was going out with a girl way below his standard(think 8 with a 4) and we cracked on him when she was gone but we never told him or made it apparent he should dump her. It seems like girls want to stay in the favor of other girls.

        And let me guess the guys drawback was he couldn’t get it poppin in the bedroom? You’re pretty vague on that “drawback”.

        • Snowdrop111

          No, the “drawback” was he held a political opinion that was pretty unpopular at the time. I didn’t agree either, but it certainly wasn’t a deal-breaker. My “friend” waited until three girls were together, then turned to the third girl and said “her boyfriend is pro-_________!” just like that. Maybe I’m oversensitive but I felt it was a dig, and it was public rather than telling me in private how bad she disliked the fact my boyfriend was pro-___________. I think it had more to do with her having fodder to get more “in” with the third girl. I sound like junior high–but I never learned to negotiate that stuff.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        I think this is usually female competitiveness. Women who do not have a boyfriend are eager to justify why yours would never be acceptable. It’ a misery loves company issue. Perhaps they don’t find your bf attractive – fine. Who needs to know that? Go find your own guy with no drawbacks and then you can claim superiority over everyone else.
        Another thing that women do when a friend gets into a relationship is confront her about how she has been ignoring her friendships and is all about the guy. They portray this as a moral failing and threaten to end the friendship if she doesn’t start making them a priority. There are some women who do tend to ditch their friends the minute they get a guy, so this kind of criticism is very upsetting.
        It’s all schadenfreude.