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Igniting the Spark of Sexual Attraction

I recently made the virtual acquaintance of fellow blogger Dalrock. His blog looks to be just a couple of months old. His slogan is:

Thoughts from a happily married father on a post feminist world.

Cool. Sometimes I think those guys are endangered. Anyway, he must have seen my recent post on modern relationships, because he seemed to know I might like his new flowchart. He was right. I do like it. I think it’s great.

Dalrock references the case of a young woman who has just received a proposal from a man she’s been dating for two years. She doesn’t know what to do, because she has absolutely no feelings of sexual attraction for him. Apparently, the advice she received was to go ahead and marry this good man. From Dalrock:

However, what struck me more than the bad advice being dispensed was how unbelievably cliché the woman’s predicament was. She was torn (in her mind) between an old boyfriend (badboy rocker who dropped out of college to join a commune) and her new one (pre med dutiful beta).

So we have a clear case here of the age-old dilemma, nice guys finishing last. Dalrock makes the point that the devoted suitor deserves better than to be married to a woman who isn’t in love with him:

A man would be better off marrying a 6 who loved him than a 9 who didn’t.

I agree. This exchange inspired him to write Women Shouldn’t Settle, and he made this flowchart to express his view.

(Discussion continues below.)

One of Dalrock’s commenters offered this opinion about the chart:

“Women should only marry a man they are head over heels in love with.”

This is too idealistic for me. Women should marry a man they could be married to. Being head over heels in love with someone now is no guarantee of being head over heels in love with that person in the future, plus women often marry for love, only to discover after the fact that they forgot to check for any signs of long-term compatibility.

Should people be head over heels before marrying? Well, it certainly helps, though most marriages throughout history were not made on the basis of love. I think what is necessary is that both parties fully understand what the other feels. If Dutiful Pre Med Guy knows this woman is not in love with him, but still wants to marry her, then he’s signing on with his eyes fully open to the risks. Personally, I can’t imagine such an arrangement being successful in our culture. We are a culture where marriage is based on the love match, and I certainly would not counsel this woman to marry a man she wasn’t in love with. Though I might ask her what she was doing wasting this guy’s time for two years. Dalrock agrees:

If the “head over heels” term makes you cringe, I’d say hold off on renting the church.

While I don’t recommend sustaining a long-term relationship devoid of sexual attraction, I do think it’s fair to question “From whence the ever elusive spark?” This morning in a comment thread Greenfield News questioned the wisdom of Hephzibah Anderson, who had written off a man she found to be delightful company after only a couple of dates, because there was no spark:

Man, that spark…ever since it was an excuse against me, I bridle at that word. I really waffle on believing if you can create a spark. I know I wanted the guy who said there wasn’t one to dig deep and find one, yet at the same time, I’m none too eager to try and find a spark with guys who have asked me out that I haven’t been interested in.

I appreciate her honesty. An excerpt from my (wordy) reply:

I’m really torn about the spark. It’s understandable that people make sexual attraction a prerequisite. But I feel that sexual attraction is a very complicated thing. Research shows that attraction occurs among people in close proximity, and that means it’s not an instantaneous event.  In my own life I have known men for a while, and then something in the dynamic changes and the sexual attraction is sparked. Perhaps it’s not just a question of looks after all for the male? Similarly, women know that the spark can occur at any time. If we think back on high school, it’s obvious that we know guys, don’t think of them that way, then bam, we’ve got a crush. Why? Maybe it was the way he spoke up in chemistry. Maybe it’s his soccer uniform. Maybe he’s a good guy friend and our feelings grow.

I don’t really have the answer. I do think the spark is important, but I also believe that sexual attraction can occur over time, gradually. It can also appear, or disappear, at a particular moment when least expected. When I was in my early 20s I worked with a guy who was a real cocky type. I couldn’t stand him, and did not find him attractive. After working with him for about a year, I had a dream about him that was super hot. Suddenly, I’d see him at work and blush. He picked up on it immediately, too, and started acting like the nice guy I knew he wasn’t. Fortunately, I restrained myself, but it was a real eye opener. Sexual attraction can hit you when you least expect it.

I encourage both men and women to really get to know a person before deciding the spark is missing.  I don’t think it’s fair to keep a guy hanging around with expectations for two years. But I do think women need to keep an open mind, and allow for the possibility of sexual attraction developing after the first date. I suspect that women are throwing back a lot of really good men.

By all means, hold out for that “head over heels” feeling before marrying. But give it plenty of time to grow. You can’t know in the first night.

Maybe the spark isn’t igniting because you’re all wet. Think about it.

4 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    You are right, I had seen your other post with the flowchart. I was instantly impressed.

    Thanks for the reference to my site and for sharing the flowchart. I had some fun with it but I also think there is some real value in the way of thinking I’m suggesting.

    I’m also extremely impressed at how well you pulled together my different writings and created a concise but overall accurate synopsis.

    For your readers, I’m hoping they will chime in on the issue of love being a prerequisite for marriage. Is there really a lobby for loveless marriage? Do your readers feel they have a right to settle? Is this viewed differently by men vs women?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thanks, Dalrock, I’m glad you feel that I handled your material appropriately. I do think this question is very important in the current SMP. We’re all in a big hurry to get what we want out of the other sex. For women, this question of the spark seems oddly elusive. Hypergamy may explain all of it, I’m not sure. Certainly this woman was focused on the bad boy rocker and couldn’t get up the tingle, essentially, for the pre med guy. Something tells me that she’s a fool, but I’m sure from where she’s sitting it’s just not something that can be forced.

  • http://www.queenofrelationships.com Queenie

    I wrote a post awhile back about “Settling for Your Soulmate”. While I believe we are all fixated on the idea of the ‘spark’, most of us find ourselves in the twisted web of the chaotic ‘game’. We seemingly put the ‘nice guys’ on the shelf because we know they’ll be there and they’ll be nice. It’s almost as if…when we learn how to handle just being with a nice guy..then we know that he will be there on the shelf. Every woman yearns for a nice guy because we know that they will treat us well, respect us and adore us but yearning for it and handling it are completely different.

    I’ve been there several times and when faced with the decision of ‘bad boy’ and ‘nice guy’, I mentally gravitate towards the badness. It’s not the ‘badness’ that is all that sexy, nor is it the other sleuth of traits that come alone with them- it’s the aloofness about their perspective on the relationship. We feed into this. “Does he like me” “Is it going to get serious?” “Is he attainable?” I believe there are several other underlying issues that make up the ‘nice guy theory’ but what it boils down to (for me) is the challenge that comes with the ‘bad boys’. It’s almost like a high, a fix, a rush of emotion trying to pin down and conquer the one who screams ‘no commitment’. This is why we always bitch about wanting a ‘nice guy’, we end up going for the ‘bad guys’ only to bitch down the road whether we win them over or not. It’s a lose-lose for me.

    I have the highlest chemistry with ‘bad boys’ which usually end up in a ‘high conflict’ relationship, but in the beginning…the sparks are enormous, the sex is wild and it’s almost as if I am drugged by my own chemicals…which allow me to overlook important details. We’ve all bought into the lie that sparks=love. I think most of us would find our happy medium if we could only stop seaching for that immediate fix..the spark. I would much rather give someone a chance and have a spark in the end than have a spark from day one and it fizzle to nothing.

    • pissed off beta

      I think that’s a shitty place to put the nice guy. You can’t just put a guy on the shelf. If you want to be with a nice guy then be with the nice guy. It’s completely bullshit to have a beta sitting their putting his care and interest in you when you know yourself that your going to run off with the next guitar playing, harley riding, cad that pulls up. Women that act like that are what make beta hate women in the end and turn to the PUA bullshit.

      • http://www.queenofrelationships.com Queenie

        No one said that putting a nice guy ‘on the shelf’ is a good thing to do. I’m just telling it like it is. I’m sure most would not admit to doing it, but it happens time and again. You deserve the right to be pissed off but… maybe I’m delusional in trying to understand why betas hate women because of the way they act. Are you implying that women drive beta to hate them? We are responsible for pushing you to “PUA” bullshit? I could easily ‘hate’ men for the same shit that has happened throughout the years but I don’t shift blame and I take responsibility for my own part.

        Personally, if a guy tells me he’s a ‘nice guy’…I am turned off because he says he’s a ‘nice guy’. I mean, is that all you are? I don’t think I’m the only woman who cringes when a dude tells her he’s just a ‘nice’ one. Is there anything else to you? Is there more to it than you ‘just being nice’? Yes, while all women ‘want’ a nice guy…they don’t want to hear that you are a ‘nice’ guy. We will then start to wonder where you got the label, if you are self-proclaimed, if other women pushed it on you or if it’s the “I just can’t catch a break nice guy”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Queenie, I have to be honest here. I can’t help but notice that you confess an insatiable hunger for bad boys, and you write a blog about finding men when you’re over 30. The truth is, when you go for those guys, you are drugged by your own chemicals. That’s the dopamine rush. It’s really no different than any other addiction, and the only answer is to go into a sort of dopamine rehab – meaning: quit those guys cold turkey. Saying the sex is wild in a high conflict relationship leads to staying together just so you can fight and have makeup sex, and we all know that isn’t going anywhere good. I recommend taking time to smell the roses, basically. Swear off the douchebags, and spend time with men who have good character, and the capacity for love.

      • http://www.queenofrelationships.com Queenie

        I can respect that you are being honest so let’s be honest together. I think you missed the point of my response or possibly didn’t read it entirely. First of all, I had already mentioned that high “chemistry” relationships usually equal high conflict. I explained that most of it is nothing more than a rush but then you explain to me that I am drugged by my own chemicals. Wasn’t that already implied? I did not say that I date bad boys frequently and have actually only ‘seriously’ dated three…ever. This isn’t to say that I do not feel high chemistry with certain types but it’s something I have learned to go against because I know the outcome. Personally, maybe we are on a different page here but this is more than just ‘dating the bad guy’ for me. This is a deeper issue that is stemmed from my earlier years. I will spare you on the inner child bullshit. Please don’t assume because I write a post about “Finding Men Over 30″ that I am miserably single due to an overdose of ‘bad guy’- not the case.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Please don’t assume because I write a post about “Finding Men Over 30″ that I am miserably single due to an overdose of ‘bad guy’- not the case.

          Forgive me, I was totally out of line here. I did miss your point – at first reading I thought you were saying that you want to find a permanent bad boy partner.
          .

          This isn’t to say that I do not feel high chemistry with certain types but it’s something I have learned to go against because I know the outcome.

          This is exactly what I’m always saying about women – we may be attracted to men who are bad for us, but it’s not as if we are incapable of acting rationally. We keep our distance in the same way we stay away from other dangerous drugs.
          .
          Again, my apologies.

        • DJB

          This may sound harsh, Queenie, but I have met many women with the same tendencies. I respect their honesty, but I have found over and over that these women are not emotionally or psychologically suited for commitment and/or marriage. You can talk yourself into a type of man that doesn’t spark your interest, but a lifetime is a long time. When children enter the picture, it will more difficult to keep yourself on the rational side of things as the young ones will require much emotional and physical investment. I’m not here to tell you what to do with your life, but I do urge you to think carefully and honestly about whether the goals you seek are a fit with your fundamental personality. I sense the same disconnect in your blog. I feel strongly that too many children end up damaged by broken homes, a situation that would be avoided altogether if men and women honestly appraised themselves, and reached the conclusion that marriage and children are not part of their makeup. Most women (and men for that matter) in this culture, whether by lack of education on the issue or otherwise, are simply not cut out to handle marriage and motherhood.

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    Great post Susan.

    I think you do have to have a spark between you. That spark will come and go over the marriage, but it is much better than starting with nothing

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thanks, Athol. Like you, I can attest to the coming and going of the spark. In 25 years of marriage, there have probably been a few times when I felt zero spark for months at a time. Other times, I have felt like making my husband late for work day after day. Ebbs and flows are normal. I can’t speak for anyone else, but personally, I would not even consider marrying without that spark. On the other hand, I wouldn’t rule a guy out after 4 hours if he didn’t have me tingling. The best mates are more likely to produce a glowing ember than a conflagration, in my experience.

    • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

      I think you do have to have a spark between you. That spark will come and go over the marriage, but it is much better than starting with nothing

      I’ve never been to marriage counseling (thankfully), but from what I understand part of what they do is try to help couples get back to the feeling they once had. If those feelings never existed, not only are you nearly guaranteed to end up in counseling but there is nothing to “go back” to.

      At least if you had the spark once you know it can exist. Conversely, if it didn’t happen during courtship, it seems to me like you might have proved it can’t happen under ideal conditions.

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    In terms of the elusive “spark.” I have not yet met the one to my knowledge although I’m currently experiencing a “spark.” I agree with you that proximately can certainly lend a hand – especially if it’s with someone you’ve known for awhile but then suddenly the dynamic changes drastically. This is exactly what just happened to me in the past 2 months. This was a guy I’ve known for quite awhile through my summer job. Suddenly in June this spark snuck up on me and it steadily grown. I can’t verify how he feels but I know for me suddenly I’m in that fully infatuated stage where I am head over heels in crush mode (I don’t like to use the term love when it’s a crush – seems a little strong lol).

    And for the record – he’s a typical beta nice guy. In fact I don’t think he’s ever had a girlfriend. And here I am completely taken by the guy and then seeing how good he is with kids (we both work at summer camps) I was even more taken with him.

    I think you need more than a spark to maintain a relationship. If it’s all spark it heats up to a flame and then burns out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think you need more than a spark to maintain a relationship. If it’s all spark it heats up to a flame and then burns out.
      .
      Precisely. The spark should be something that eventually fans the flames of passion. But the relationship is the fuel. The spark alone is short-lived. It’s interesting that we talk about a spark, rather than, say, an explosion. That implies something that must be nurtured, tended, to ignite something bigger. It’s fragile, and easily extinguished. By itself, the spark is worthless.

      • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

        Good point and I agree. I think that the spark needs more to it in order to mean something. It does need care and it needs to be fed so that it can grow.

  • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com Hambydammit

    In some ways, I think it really sucks to be in the marriage market today. As you pointed out, marriage is about love in our culture, but that’s not been the case historically. In fact, I think if we asked space aliens their opinion of marriage for love, they’d leave earth and never come back for fear of the stupid rubbing off on them.

    Marriage is great for raising children, preserving wealth, accomplishing long term goals, and so forth. But the idea of committing oneself to another person financially and legally because of love? Pretty dumb. We’re not designed to stay in love with one person for our entire life.

    The thing is, we create cultural “white lies” about love. Ask any couple who’s been together for fifty years, and they’ll use the word love in describing their fifty years. But dig deeper and you’ll discover that they also had periods where they hated each other, were indifferent to each other, and frankly, they probably also had periods where they were in love with someone else, whether they consummated it or not.

    When I put together my list of “advice for young men,” I stressed one thing repeatedly: Don’t get married unless it adds something real to your life and relationship. I understand that women have a vested interest in getting and keeping a quality guy, but I think they would do well to think about it the same way. Marriage does not really improve the chances that love will last longer. Committing to each other and working on being the best lover and companion you can be makes love last. In some ways, I think women can work themselves into a conniption fit over marriage when they already have a perfectly wonderful relationship.

    In both a marriage and a relationship, both the man and the woman are constantly evaluating the relationship against leaving. It’s a little more trouble to leave a marriage than a LTR, but we all know that a person who wants out will get out.

    Finally, think about it like this. Men hate it when women nag about marriage. They hate it, hate it, hate it. When a man has a great girlfriend who accepts the relationship for exactly what it is and doesn’t press for marriage, he values her more highly than a comparable girl who can’t be happy unless she has a ring. Ironically, that increases the chances that the guy will value her highly enough to want to marry her when marriage will add something to his life.

    So I guess the moral of the story from my point of view is this: Look for love, not marriage. When you find love, work hard on yourself as the best lover and companion you can be. Cheat proof your relationship by being the best option he has. Make it last by being so valuable to him that it’s a no-brainer to be in a LTR. When it comes time for making babies, you’ll both know it’s a no-brainer to seal the deal at the altar.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Look for love, not marriage. When you find love, work hard on yourself as the best lover and companion you can be. Cheat proof your relationship by being the best option he has. Make it last by being so valuable to him that it’s a no-brainer to be in a LTR.

      Hamby, this is a recurring theme of yours and I really don’t think you can say it enough. I feel like making it the subheading to HUS. Grerp talked about cheat-proofing your relationship, and I think that’s very important. Don’t get lazy and forget what men like. There was one time when I was sick with the flu, and when my husband started to cuddle up that night I said, “Don’t even think of parking here.” Which cracked him up, fortunately. Otherwise, I say give your man what he wants and needs or expect him to start with fantasizing about someone else and take it from there.

      • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

        I think I’ve decided that it’s even more important for women than men to look at love this way. Yesterday, a female friend of mine was explaining to me that she would like to become a good dart player, but there is a real boundary. For guys, it’s easy to go into a lonely bar and practice darts for hours on end without anyone bothering us. If a girl goes into the same bar, she’ll be fending off sexual advances from every guy who comes in. So she spends a third of her practice time talking to guys, a third worrying about whether the new guy is going to come bother her, and maybe a third getting real practice in.
        That got me thinking. My friend is not unattractive, but she is no longer a young hottie. Most guys tell me she’s a 7 (for being 30). But even so, she’s under the impression that she could get a man at the drop of a hat if she wanted to. While that’s probably true, it’s not as true as it was five years ago for her, and more true than it will be in five. It’s also not true that she could get a *GOOD GUY* at the drop of a hat.
        Still, she believes in the constant availability of men to her, and that’s a common perspective for women. Women take the constant attention to be proof that they are desired by many.
        But as you and I know, the number of guys who desire a particular girl for a long term, committed relationship are usually few. Most guys just want to have sex with her. So, there’s a tendency to overinflate value. Which means that once a girl is in a relationship, there is a tendency to maintain the sense of over-inflated value and slough off relationship obligations.
        I mean, let’s be honest. If the couch potato syndrome is real, then the hottie wife who puts on forty pounds and stops giving blow jobs is at least as real. I can count on one hand the number of men I know whose wives have kept themselves up the way they did when they were single. Women get lazy because they aren’t willing to admit to themselves why they are valuable to their husbands/boyfriends.
        It may be harsh to say, but we don’t need women for friendship and companionship. It’s nice, but we have guys for that, and they don’t bitch at us to take them to dinner at the expensive places. We want women for being women, which means being pretty and sexy and charming and all the things women are when they’re trying to get us into a relationship.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          This sense of overinflated value comes up again and again, from both men and women. It’s a particularly intractable problem. If a woman can get a guy to desire her for sex, she’s going to think she has a shot at the commitment. No matter how many times this fails to pan out, she’s going to be very resistant to suggestions that she should lower her sights considerably. It’s like being told that the condo you just put on the market for 899K is really worth about 475K. So they’ll keep going for the brass ring and guys will keep pumping and dumping them. No remedy in sight, really.

        • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com Hambydammit

          Susan, I think you’re going to love my next post. Should be up in a couple of hours.

  • pissed off beta

    Susan this answers the question of what do women do after a spark is created, and whether a spark is a good or bad thing. But when do we find out why these sparks don’t fly for us betas why are we getting shoved to the side when we hold as you have said better marriage material and long term happiness?

    • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

      Man the fuck up. Get confident. And don’t take that shit.

      • pissed off beta

        So your saying force myself on the girl until she has a spark? Somehow I thinking smothering a girl is a bad idea. Its not a matter of being around the girl. It’s a matter of what does one do around the girl.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          Jesus christ man where the hell did I say force yourself.

          “Man the fuck up. Get confident. And don’t take that shit.”

          Son, you act like I said rape her. Rub up some testicular fortitude and say “You realize I don’t play this sideline shit. If you wanna wait on a good guy this dude is bouncin. So you done playing this I like you but I don’t want to ruin our friendship crap?”

          She says yes, date her and I hope you get it in lovely stylie. She says no, move the fuck on.

          I’m sorry this might seem harsh to you, but the same way I put in another post I’d love to see more women comment, I’m tired of seeing people like white and nerdy come on here and complain on how they are treated. The same way all us men think that girls let themselves be treated the way the act like they want to be treated is the same with men. You stop acting like a bitch and that girl will stop treating you like a beta bitch.

        • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com Hambydammit

          Well said, escarondito. You show me a hot-ass model guy who whines about how badly girls treat him and I’ll show you a guy girls think is a pansy and don’t want to fuck.
          Pissed Off Beta, the sparks don’t fly for you because you’re pissed off and a beta. Start treating yourself as if you’re valuable. Stand up for yourself. Talk to the girls with authority, confidence, and clear intention. Hold your shoulders back, your chin up, and act like you are worth having. The sparks will come.

        • Dilithium

          I don’t think the two of you realize how difficult your advice — which seems to you so simple and straightforward — is to follow, especially for that stratum of men who are reflexively honest, reality-based, and hopeless at acting unrealistically.

          .

          Start treating yourself as if you’re valuable.

          .

          Common enough advice. But, if there is no actual evidence that this is true, ie if basically no one has ever actually valued you, then it is simply damned hard for a reality-based, honest person to pretend that the truth is otherwise. There are some people, perhaps even most, who have no problem with acting out an illusion if it will help get them what they want/need; and perhaps you are two of those, and you can’t understand why anyone else would have trouble with it. But, I don’t know how much more plainly I can put it: there are simply some people (almost entirely men, I think) who lack the talent or circuitry for pretending to believe what they know to be untrue; and for those among them who haven’t ever been valued your advice is basically a null.

          .

          Now, you may instead take the line that evidence for value doesn’t have to come from other people, but can be found within oneself; this is kind of like one of those smarmy sayings, “Believe in yourself, and others will too” that used to adorn so many wall posters back in the 1970′s. But in this view, too, your advice will simply fail for honest people. Remember, one shining feature of the beta mentality is that if there’s discord then the beta will cast blame first upon himself as the one who is flawed or wrong, and then try to act better. A terrible reflex! for getting or keeping a relationship, say we who know better now. But what’s the alternative? of course, it’s to reflexively value oneself first, to always presume by default that bad outcomes are due to flaws in others.

          This attitude may work to make a man attractive; but it’s not an attitude that an honest person can hold and also be social at the same time. If an honest man who’d been treated poorly all his life really centered his value on himself, then he would also have to conclude that the world is a bad and unfair place: the intellectually and morally correct stance would be resentment, which no one would welcome but the reflexively honest man would be unable to hide (see above). The successful PUA, by contrast, is unhampered by honesty: he believes in his heart that women are, by and large, dishonest and irrational whores, but that doesn’t slow him down from putting on a face of charm and (carefully rationed) attention toward them to get what he wants.

          .

          In a better (IMO) world, honest men would have a valued place; but in the current environment they’re basically evolutionary failures, headlong on their way to extinction. Try, at least, to show them a little sympathy on their way out.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          Ok I feel you Dilithium. My advice does kinda sound as if I am preaching to the choir and not to bring in new blood like saying, to me atleast, self-evident truths.

          And you say that the common Beta attributes his failure with women at himself. And I completely agree. Cause that was ME! Always putting myself down cause I’m not this enough or that enough. But, I now see the reason between myself and pissed off and white and nerdy. I turned that flaw into a positive. I had a friend named “rome”(dirty name for picking up women) who could see I had the potential to be what I wanted to be but didn’t know how to do it. He gave me one rule(This was in boston by the way, which is a serious pedestrian city). Everytime you catch eyes with a girl and its more than a second, go talk to her. Scared silly is an understatement. Absolute EPIC FAIL the first 5 times. And the blame game started. And instead of me saying what it wrong with me, it turned into “what did I do wrong”. So every interaction was still my fault, but because I said the wrong thing or did something wrong so I actively worked on holding my body properly, eye contact, strong inner game mentality, the works. Intead of finding fault in them I found fault in me and corrected it. All I’m saying is try to turn your negatives into positives, if nothing good has happened with women in your life so far, it has to change eventually, life has a way of balancing out.

          Oh yes. I never also saw value in myself sometimes. I made it. I may not be the best player on the football field but I dare anyone to play me in Halo and put down money. I don’t know what a HRA.345 average is compared to an IRA but if jeopardy had a category for marvel vs. DC alex wouldn’t see anyone elses board light up. Take pride in what you take pride in. And then just run with that. And I’m serious if anyone thinks they’re hot on Halo pick up the sticks and come see me. Gamertag: Escarondito. Take a sticky to the face, no homo

        • I, Enemy Combatant

          I don’t think the two of you realize how difficult your advice — which seems to you so simple and straightforward — is to follow, especially for that stratum of men who are reflexively honest, reality-based, and hopeless at acting unrealistically.

          I think what we should teach is the fundamental strategy for success.

          The fundamental strategy for success is emulating other successful people. The surest path to failure is to do things your own way. That goes from all areas of life, from making a lot of money to getting married.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          I’m tired of seeing people like white and nerdy come on here and complain on how they are treated.

          Too bad.

          All your talk about “confidence”, “manning up”, and “testicular fortitude” is crap because when a man really does it like me you want him to shut up. Your game of anti-male shaming tactics has been exposed and we all know what the real deal is with anti-male shaming tactics.

          I have stood up for myself more than any man here. Did it get me women? Hell no. It got me, “You’re an asshole and I think you must be compensating for having a small penis.” It didn’t stop women trying to get me fired with bogus sexual harassment complaints. I don’t care. I stand up for myself because its the right thing to do. No woman has the right to take away my job or my freedom despite your whines about me “complaining”.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          White and nerdy, I know you must be trolling to post that digital drivel and consider it a link worth value.

          “Too bad.

          All your talk about “confidence”, “manning up”, and “testicular fortitude” is crap because when a man really does it like me you want him to shut up. Your game of anti-male shaming tactics has been exposed and we all know what the real deal is with anti-male shaming tactics.”

          That article, that you posted, had to deal with shaming when the person could not produce a legitamate argument.

          “the fact is shaming language can not be used to speak about your actual behavior. The user of shaming language is just repeating the same thing over and over again with slightly different wording despite being exposed as ignoring facts.”

          His problem:”But when do we find out why these sparks don’t fly for us betas why are we getting shoved to the side”

          He is being undervalued.

          My solution: Man up. Be confident. Then further explained to stand up for himself, Hamby added in as well, “Start treating yourself as if you’re valuable”

          From your link “shaming language can not be used to speak about your actual behavior”
          His behavior: lack of confidence in self, Low self-worth.
          What we said: Be confident, see value in yourself

          From your link”The user of shaming language is just repeating the same thing over and over again with slightly different wording despite being exposed as ignoring facts.”
          Our advice: I’m pretty sure we listened to the facts he presented on his issue and responded accordingly. No ignoring there. I even made sure to clarify my statement.

          Your argument is done, null and void. Now I’m gonna go Obs on you. If you feel your point is still valid. Please explain.

          E.

          P.S.”I have stood up for myself more than any man here. Did it get me women? Hell no. It got me, “You’re an asshole and I think you must be compensating for having a small penis.” It didn’t stop women trying to get me fired with bogus sexual harassment complaints. I don’t care. I stand up for myself because its the right thing to do. No woman has the right to take away my job or my freedom despite your whines about me “complaining”.”

          1)“You’re an asshole and I think you must be compensating for having a small penis.” – Your cocky funny sounds flawed. A keep aspect of cocky funny is being an asshole while being slyly funny. That way the girl makes herself feel awkward if she took her joke as an insult and you neg her on that”Are you always that sensetive?”. Considering thats the response you’re getting you probably just are being an asshole.

          2)” It didn’t stop women trying to get me fired with bogus sexual harassment complaints” – No No No No NO. I never hit on ANYONE I work with hard. There’s this 35 year-old super MILF who I work with and I lightly play flirt with her alot but I would never clearly say something that sounds like sexual harrasment. For some one who seems to know about how women can abuse the legal system I’m surprised you would try game at work. As a black male myself I’ve known for a long time that HR makes cuts much either when it comes to brothers on anything, so sexual harassment has always been a no no for me. I suggest all men be wary about spitting game at work. Actually not spitting game at work has helped me game other girls at work even more. Since they can clearly tell I’m holding stuff back they usually wanna see how I really act and invite out to bars with their friends. So that’s your fault homie.

          3)”No woman has the right to take away my job or my freedom despite your whines about me “complaining” – I never said anyone had the right to take away your job or freedom?!? Homie hold the floodgates on your backlog of items, we’ll parse through them one by one. I see you took offense to the complaining. That might’ve harsh as I know you could probably find 1 or 2 posts about me complaining on here about something. The thing is, I never see you break past those issues. You gotta take your problem, break it down to what you need to do, then do it. Like when I wasn’t getting girls one problem was my convo. I knew about X-men to Nietzsche and Spielberg to habeas corpus but no girl wants to talk about that stuff. So, everynight before the weekend dance, I would read up for 30 minutes on pop culture, reality shows, celerity gossip you know that trash, so I could know what they are talking about and eventually roll them onto my subjects if I felt they were the type of girl that would talk about it. That’s just one aspect, but you get what I’m saying.

          When you come every week with the same I’m 30 and a virgin, women suck and they never get better talk, It makes me wonder if in your offtime you really try to solve the problem or just like to hear yourself bitch. IDK man that’s just my opinion. Dueces. Holla back.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          White and nerdy, I know you must be trolling to post that digital drivel and consider it a link worth value.

          If you think I’m trolling why did you respond?

          Unlike all of you people I have actually tried what you claim works. It didn’t work. I’m not guessing. I know from real life experiences. I know what the next step is since I have been through all this before. If it doesn’t work for Pissed Off Beta or the next guy he will just be accused of failing to sufficiently “man up”. Telling a man to “man up” is an anti-male shaming tactic regardless of the context.

          I know what confidence and standing up for yourself really is. You “game” boys don’t. You can’t because your self esteem is based on the opinions of women.

          Now I’m gonna go Obs on you.

          Meaning what? You’re going to accuse me of being unable to “wash my ass”????? Or tell me I’m a “whitebread who had the world handed to him on a platter”????

          Obsidian is a joke.

          For some one who seems to know about how women can abuse the legal system I’m surprised you would try game at work.

          I have never tried “game” at work. I have gotten sexual harassment complaints from women who I have never spoken to or had any interaction with.

          When you come every week with the same I’m 30 and a virgin, women suck and they never get better talk, It makes me wonder if in your offtime you really try to solve the problem or just like to hear yourself bitch. IDK man that’s just my opinion.

          A real solution would involve changes in law and politics.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          “If you think I’m trolling why did you respond?
          Unlike all of you people I have actually tried what you claim works.”
          Works for me and I don’t even run on some max level game. Used it on the host at T.G.I.Fridays last wedsneday. Honestly I say 25% of my interactions with women has some element of game to it. Why doesn’t it work for you?

          “I have never tried “game” at work. I have gotten sexual harassment complaints from women who I have never spoken to or had any interaction with.”
          From that…wow…So I guess women just hate you huh?

          “A real solution would involve changes in law and politics.”
          See comments like this confirm to me that you must be trolling. Get the legislative on the phone right now! Both houses of congress enact HR0069 females(only 7′s and above) must make treat white and nerdy better and make aggresively passionate love to him. Tell me when CNN has breaking news on the passage. I’m done. Like a fat girl in dogeball, I’m out!

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          See comments like this confirm to me that you must be trolling. Get the legislative on the phone right now! Both houses of congress enact HR0069 females(only 7′s and above) must make treat white and nerdy better and make aggresively passionate love to him. Tell me when CNN has breaking news on the passage.

          There are real issues that affect men such as men losing their jobs because of the sexual harassment industry, men losing their freedom because of the false rape industry, men losing their children and their assets because of divorce and corrupt anti-male family courts, etc. etc. etc. Just because you want to make it all about “getting laid” does not make it so.

          I know all you game boys think that because you have “game” none of these issues will affect you. They will. Feminist totalitarianism has been increasing and nothing has stopped it so far. Eventually hitting on the wrong woman will get you sued or thrown in jail. Count on it.

        • I, Enemy Combatant

          Eventually hitting on the wrong woman will get you sued or thrown in jail. Count on it.

          Who would be stupid enough to pass such a law? You need to get real dude.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          Like I don’t mean to get rough on you, but I will cause I know where you’re coming from. If you’re like me then your mother and your sister harped to you growing up about this man did this wrong to me and that wrong to me and you thought when I meet a girl I’m gonna be a great guy. And then that dream shattered for you on first hello and you wondered, “damn what the hell is going on”.

          They wanted you to be a great little boy and told you the girls would love how nice you are. Your mother is a fucking liar. My mother, is an amazing woman, but is a fucking liar. Any woman who’s had a couple periods learns very quickly what she likes and doesn’t like so I don’t know if it is a plan of mother to beta the shit outta their boys but they do it very well. And it works even better if they are doting single mothers. She probably even told you the worst lie of all. “Just be yourself”. I’m not sure if this is the same with every man but I took that talk logically and, was myself. Kinda didn’t work out for me. Don’t listen to that gobbledygook. Naw son, don’t play that shit. Be your best self.

          I know why you thought i meant force yourself on her. It’s because in your head, and yours as well, you are below her, whether you want to admit it or not. So for you to get assertive now, it would seem like forcing yourself. So stand up for yourself and state your steez. If she says no walk away and never look back and I guarantee you she’ll have more respect for you than she does now.

    • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

      Pissed off beta, you will be told the answer is that you lack “game”. This is wrong because “game” does not exist. It’s a myth. I tried using it (such as I could figure out since it doesn’t exist) and got completely different results than I was supposed to. Don’t waste your time with it like I did.

      The problem you are running into is something I recently figured out and am calling “the experience gap”. For a large group of men the gulf of experience between them and women is so vast that women have made themselves incapable of relating to men like us. It’s gets “worse” as you get older. Worse is in quotes because at least you will never have to worry about being forced to clean up the mess a woman has made except via taxes.

      You should be confident. You should stand up for yourself. I do that every second I’m awake. Has it got me women? Of course not because the real problem is the experience gap. It doesn’t matter since standing up for yourself is the right thing to do. I bet you’re doing it already.

      • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

        1 year of working on inner game and I guarantee you’d never make a comment like that again.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          Are you saying its wrong to stand up for yourself?

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          “You should be confident. You should stand up for yourself. I do that every second I’m awake. Has it got me women? Of course not because the real problem is the experience gap”

          “1 year of working on inner game and I guarantee you’d never make a comment like that again.”

          Because I can’t see you truly practicing confidence and still getting failing results. I think you might be a little angry on your relations and don’t see how it’s affecting your interactions with women. But I haven’t seen you in te field so I won’t judge. And I’m done with this argument. I’ll leave you with this. I believe you are willfully ignoring the fact that many betas have used “game” to better their chances with women. I am one of them. Why can’t you be one? What makes you so different from every other beta (mystery, style, etc.) who has become better with women through game? And, by game I mean to focus on inner game. Mystery, style, roissy, roosh, everyone pua or practicioner always say the same thing. None of the little openers, negs, qualifying statements truly mean anything. You can say pretty much anything to a girl as long as you say it with confidence and a smile.

        • Sox

          Well said Esca.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          I believe you are willfully ignoring the fact that many betas have used “game” to better their chances with women.

          You are willfully ignoring the many betas who have discovered that “game” does not exist.

          You have no understanding what confidence really is.

        • Sox

          What’s with the “game does not exist” line that you keep throwing out?

          Are you saying the principles that it’s based on are false? What if we call it by another name? Psycho-social dominance through an understanding of the concepts of sexual attraction? Or what if you just look at it as remedial training on how to actually be masculine again? It’s tools, its concepts- I don’t understand how you can discount the whole thing without being willfully obtuse about it.

          The first step is definitely acknowledging the issue, getting angry, and speaking up. Yea, there’s injustice. What do you do after that? Are you actually doing anything to change your situation? Are you resigned to it never changing? Then accept it and move on…being bitter and angry doesn’t seem worth the effort. Choose to be something else.

          They say Game only works for a small percentage of guys that actually try it. IMO, that’s for two main reasons. A very small fraction of guys are beyond help. They didn’t have the potential to begin with, unfortunately. The rest that fail usually do so because they fail to operationalize all the theory. It’s much easier to be on the sidelines than actually get out and do the work. It feels unnatural. Lasting personal change is painful. It often involves going against every impulse in your body. It’s about acting in spite of how you feel.

          If you’d be willing to be a little more open-minded, I bet a lot of people would be willing to mentor you/coach you through it. Might as well make the best of a shitty situation, right?

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          “Game” is worded and designed to prevent actual testable hypotheses to really determine its effectiveness. If your results with “game” are anything other than success you don’t know what really happened. Could it be that you didn’t work hard enough? Is “game” wrong? Could there be some other unrelated reason? No one knows because “game” is defined in such a way to prevent such answers from even being somewhat figured out. “Game” is faith based not results based. For all you gamers talk of “improvement” no one is interested in figuring out how to improve “game” or the education about “game” so more men can use it. This makes it smell like a con job. That is why I’m not surprised when a few questions get asked about “game” it leads to responses from gamers like “you don’t take showers” and racist BS.

          At a personal level I am going ghost. I’m in the process of getting out of corporate employment and becoming self employed. I’m also working on making sure the ability to tax me is at the lowest level possible to minimize the amount women can steal from me via socialism. I am also investigating expating but I don’t think I will be doing that in the near future for various reasons.

      • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com dan_brodribb

        I’m glad you’re standing up for yourself and for what you believe is right. I admire that. It took me a long time to learn, and there are times I still have trouble with it.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          I still have trouble with it too from time to time. I don’t think anyone can stand up for themselves 100% of the time. We just try to do it as much as possible.

    • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

      I mentioned in an early comment that I’m actually completely smitten with a beta at the moment. Sparks will fly between a girl and a beta, but escarondito and Hambydammit have a point. People like to be with happy people. If you’re describing yourself as pissed off, no one is really going to want to hang out with you, much less date you. Girls want a guy who takes some pride in himself and has confidence. Very specifically – the guy that I’ve fallen for I’ve actually known for awhile through my summer job. We don’t see each other during the year usually. Last summer I didn’t really notice him much, I thought he was funny and a nice guy, but he had just been promoted so he was a bit unsure of what he was doing. This year he knows what he’s doing/more relaxed and that confidence is incredibly sexy.

      You need to present yourself well and they will come.

      • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ Hambydammit

        I’m puzzled at guys like PoB and Nerdy who accuse guys like esc and me (although I am definitely not a PUA) of trying to throw other guys under the bus and get them out of the way. Seriously? They say, “We don’t get any women,” and we tell them ways to get women. That’s taking women out of play for us! Why get mad at us? What could I possibly say to a celibate man to make him any less of a threat to me?
        But… to get back to the point at hand… behavior is behavior and belief is belief. Do you imagine that Dustin Hoffman was in exactly the same mood as his character every moment of his acting career? Of course not! Acting means behaving in a way that is different from the way you feel.
        Read that again, beta and nerd. Acting means behaving in a way that is different from the way you feel. The way you feel is the way you act now. And it gets you Rosy Palm and the Hand Lotion Express. So… act as if you feel differently than you do. Act like a guy who gets vagina instead of late night Cinemax.
        Study the way confident men act, and act that way. Use your brains and overcome your bodies. When women perceive you as confident (because you’re a good actor), you’ll get laid. That’ll make you confident. Then you won’t be acting anymore.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          Dude just leave it be now. I realize WaN is delusional or a troll or likes to wallow in misery that its everyone elses fault. He says he stands up but I have no clue what they hell he stands up for. Himself, scorned men, people who are white and nerdy?

          IDK about PoB is he heard what we were trying to say but I’m done with that whole convo. He refuses to acknowledge that game works for everyone but him.

        • Dilithium

          Ahem.

          .

          The key word in Habny’s comment is “act,” as in “act as if you feel differently than you do”. As I said above, there is a distinct subset of people (mostly men) who simply cannot act. You might call the honest or you might call them stuck-up or you might call them mentally challenged, but they’re in the world and the Game recommendation given here is not going to work for them. I have no brief for W&N in particular, but I dispute the narrow claim that “game works for everyone but him”. There are hard cases, and it would be better to see/hear some advice that they can use, that doesn’t center on acting.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Dilithium, I think this is a fair point. There are definitely men who are not going to be able to absorb Game concepts and thrive in the way that Esca and Hamby clearly have. In fact, these guys have catapulted themselves into Alpha territory, which must put them in the top 5% of guys learning Game.
          My question is, what is good advice for a guy who is really struggling and can’t, or won’t act? I hear from men in this predicament from time to time, and I’m at a loss. I don’t want to offer useless advice, obviously. As a woman, I’m not even sure I’m capable of fully comprehending their experience. In fact, I’m sure I’m not. Still, I would like to help if I can.

        • Dilithium

          Now that I’ve caught up on the comments, I see that Esca did relay a piece of advice that doesn’t center on acting:

          .

          “He gave me one rule(This was in boston by the way, which is a serious pedestrian city). Everytime you catch eyes with a girl and its more than a second, go talk to her.”

          .

          No mention of acting per se, just a jump-in-the-deep-end exercise, or maybe better a kind of shock therapy. Who knows? it might work for some guys to develop non-acting skills, or to learn to relax. On the other hand I can see it also backfiring, leaving the man even more cramped and resentful than before. Like you, I’d be curious (academically, not for personal use) to hear more Game advice that doesn’t center on acting.

          .

          I’ll tell you, though, what really bothers me most about “acting” approaches, and in fact most Game approaches, is that they require a man to hide his past, like some kind of shameful secret. Think about poor Pissed Off Beta in the exchange above; according to Esca (who I think has it right) all that PoB did wrong was to listen to his mother! and now he has to move to another town and change his name like a criminal! to hide and deny his history of failure. It’s a terribly burdensome thing, having to hide one’s past, to think of it as shameful, especially when you haven’t actually hurt anyone or stolen anything. You can see that even Esca has a confessional impulse, to tell us about his hapless beta history; but he has to do it here, anonymously, because he certainly can’t be so honest with any girl he’s trying to game. How sad! and essentially lonely the life of the accomplished PUA must be, and how sad that women’s tastes force this life on them.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          “I’ll tell you, though, what really bothers me most about “acting” approaches, and in fact most Game approaches, is that they require a man to hide his past, like some kind of shameful secret.”

          Exactly, which is why I tried to inform above that what many guys, WaN, seem not to realize about game is that if all you are doing is acting approaches you will never understand the true purpose of game. My friend rome(Mr. just go talk to him) is a natural. And that is all I care about becoming. Some negs, openers, and close techniques are useful but technique is a bad word to describe them. It makes them sound like ways build a house or something. Techniques are just moves made by naturals. They call them techniques because most betas think in a logical mindset and not emotional. Thus, an ear twink and eye wink are no longer an moment of arousal but a kino technique. Sounds more managable for an electrical engineer no? Lastly, I don’t hide a single wink of my past. I consider it a benefit. Here is one convo I had with a girl at BU this halloween. Her name’s esther and she was wearing a sexy tight sailors outfit. It was actually this (http://cdn1.ioffer.com/img/item/150/075/971/WjLQLcqEdCzJR4q.jpg). Est: Her. Esc: Me

          We are at a house party on gardner st(which I will be at this weekend, that place is the ish) I had brought her outside after 10 minutes of dancing(longer than that is just stalling). We are sitting on a back porch. Some dude is pissing in the corner. he doesn’t matter just vividly remember that for some reason.
          Est: You’ve got moves, where’d you learn to dance like that.
          Esc:Kindergarten
          Est:laughs
          Esc: Let’s have recess and I’ll show you.
          Est:You’re a player aren’t you(SHIT TEST! SHIT TEST!)
          Esc: Naw, I’m a geek with benefits
          Est: What do you mean?
          Esc: I was never really good with girls before.
          Est: Why?
          Esc: Cause you guys are icky.
          Est: Laughs. So what changed?
          Esc: I don’t know(rubs hand on thigh) You guys kinda have nice legs,(pick her up and put her on lap)
          Est:Laughs
          Esc:(touch side of face) And really soft skin,(get close to ear)and the lips are just amazing(Kiss close)

          Did I lie about myself at all???Nope. Just dropped some truth and transitioned.

        • verie44

          That’s a great convo, I have to say. Props to you. I’ve been gamed pretty hard and that’s up there with some of the best, definitely. Not every girl would have dealt well with the touching, myself being one, but overall it’s really smooth. It’s vulnerable but masculine at the same time. Pretty perfect.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          OH, BABY! Escarondito, you are dangerous! Also, how on earth did you find that pic? That’s hilarious! Also a pretty good costume. I’ve noticed that most of the sexy Halloween costumes have white knee socks – I guess men just can’t resist the schoolgirl, hopefully at least pubescent.

        • Sox

          I’ll tell you, though, what really bothers me most about “acting” approaches, and in fact most Game approaches, is that they require a man to hide his past, like some kind of shameful secret

          I disagree with this. A guy has to separate himself from his past internally in order to avoid falling into old beta thought/emotional patterns, but people generally respond to someone who’s changed. It’s always easier to wipe the clate slean and start over somewhere new, but not necessary. It just takes some time.

          Any guy that starts pouring his heart out to a girl early on is shooting himself in the foot anyway. Same goes for a girl that does so with me.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again, the greatest thing about male female relations is that point when you get that close point of intimacy with each other and play with it. Next time you’re with your sig other, lover, or interested stranger, feel that moment when you two are close but not touching and the literal heat coming off each others body and flowing into one another. It’s like god is screaming from on high “Make a baby! Make a Baby!” and the best feeling is pushing and pulling that like “Hold on sky homie, I got this”. If a beta even accidentally falls into that once, just once. It’s like a whole wing on a mansion just opens before your eyes. Oh these rooms were here all along! You can never go back. The Pandora’s Box complex.
          I can’t do that if I’m acting. I learned that very early. So I’m just me, but the best me. I’ve noticed the knee socks trend on every halloween costume, and it’snto always white. Cop, rainbow brite, nurse, they all come with knee socks now.
          Sigh. I dare anyone college aged who lives near boston to go in town for halloween weekend and not have a good time. It’s your first christmas for 3 nights in a row.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Sky Homie – that’s hilarious. You know what I like best about you? (Other than your way with words?) Your total enthusiasm, that sense of discovering how great things can be when you’ve done the hard work. Yours is a real story of taking control and making changes. It’s a model of what’s possible, and a good example for guys. And all done without bitterness, which would have gotten in the way.

        • Sox

          I was in Salem last year. It was a good time, but a freakshow ;)

        • verie44

          Hmm, sounds so much like the women who have followed feminist voices & were raised in a feminist environment with no moderating older female voice. Let me change your paragraph to fit:

          “all that [girl with a lot of sexual partners] did wrong was to listen to societal norms and what everyone was telling her was empowering to do! and now [she] has to…hide and deny [her] history of failure. It’s a terribly burdensome thing, having to hide one’s past, to think of it as shameful, especially when you haven’t actually hurt anyone or stolen anything. You can see that even [another girl with a lot of sexual partners] has a confessional impulse, to tell us about her [sexual] history; but she has to do it here, anonymously, because she certainly can’t be so honest with any [guy] she’s trying to [date]. How sad! and essentially lonely the life of the accomplished [girl with a lot of sexual partners who successfully hides the fact] must be, and how sad that [men’s] tastes force this life on them.”

          Again, how is it that some men here have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who aren’t the head of the pack but none for the girls?

        • Sox

          Again, how is it that some men here have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who aren’t the head of the pack but none for the girls?

          Are you still drawing equivalence b/t beta guys and promiscuous girls? They’re apples and oranges.

          It’s incredibly unfair, you’re right. We also have to accept the fact that people find all kinds of reasons to disqualify others for a LTR, and some people are more forgiving than others. Is it really that surprising to women that men don’t like the idea of being with a slut/reformed slut? I would think many women have this in the back of their minds at some point but either tell themselves “that’s not me,” or “any guy that thinks so must just be insecure”.

          I’m more forgiving than a lot of guys…and I can without hesitation say that every girl I’ve known with that kind of history carried some SERIOUS baggage. Some hid it better than others.

          Some people just make mistakes. Some girls look for love and get screwed. They might do it a few more times, and then realize their mistake. Others couldn’t care either way and just follow their impulses, never looking ahead. We can tell. Any guy with a hint of awareness will eventually be able to judge a girl as a LTR prospect based on her integrity, femininity, security, etc…Promiscuity just happens to be a huge indicator for a lot of the qualities we don’t want in a partner.

        • Sox

          Are the italics screwed up or is it me? Sorry about that.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          On the feminist sites that discuss casual sex, the standard response is “I would never want to date a man who cared about that.” OK. Like I’ve said elsewhere, this is a supply and demand question. How large is the pool of men who don’t care about that?

        • Sox

          Certainly larger than the feminist camp wants to admit. For every guy that openly admits to caring there’s probably 3 that are shamed into acting/saying that they don’t.

        • verie44

          I’m no longer saying that they’re the same — I see they’re not, but there’s definitely starting to be a feeling on this website by the guys that these sluts deserve what they get, they’re horrible people, which is exactly the feeling I have when I’ve visited PUA websites briefly. Betas here who haven’t corrupted women like the PUAs have are actually more justified in shaming the ones who have been on the cock carousel, but the atmosphere is the same. The all-encompassing condemnation is not a welcome environment for the women who might read here. Some kind of encouragement is needed since most women fall into that “one night stand” category at least once. I’ve been trying to find a way to provide it, but I’m getting shot down at every turn here.

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          There is a difference between ACC and a couple one night stands. A couple one night stands are sips compared to slut guzzle. You had a coupe one night stands baby you’re good in my book. If I knew you did trains with the basketball team in college.Hmmmm… what do you think? As in would you verie?

        • http://escarondito.blogspot.com escarondito

          “Again, how is it that some men here have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who aren’t the head of the pack but none for the girls?”

          Might sound harsh but as long as you are just beta and not an angry beta you have my sympathy. The difference is that a beta is a solid foundation to build on, a very promiscuous woman is a cracked foundation. You can’t build on that and expect anything to stand. A beta is simply a man that low to no confidence that can be built up and maintained. A very promiscous woman, in my opinion and I think others agree, is a woman with low to no confidence. Sound similar right? But here is the difference. A man who is just a beta has not self-harmed his foundation. A woman who sleeps around is self harming because nothing that she is doing is making her foundation any stronger. You may not actively realize you are weakening it but try to build something on that and you’ll start to feel the tremors of a weak support. The only thing I think is equal between men and women in this convo is a angry beta and a promiscuous female. AB’s and PF’s both should have an advisory sticker outside their fence that sated beware: you tread on faulty ground.

        • verie44

          This I totally agree with.

        • verie44

          This is actually what I think I was trying to get at all along, but failed. Thank you, escarondito.

        • Dilithium

          <i?"Again, how is it that some men here have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who aren’t the head of the pack but none for the girls?"

          .

          Do I need to point out the obvious? Apparently so. The essential difference is that the girls who slept around made a choice, while the hapless betas who got nothing had essentially no choice in the matter. The girl who slept around might have been following some kind of “societal norm,” but that’s hardly an excuse as there are a lot of other “norms” pulling in other directions at the same time. The essential act is that she chose to follow the “indulgence-as-empowerment” norm (some call it feminist), while the “respect yourself” and even “try to find a decent, stable guy” norms were also freely available to her but she chose not to follow them.

          .

          The hapless beta, by contrast, suffers his shameful burden because he was inept; there was no choice* involved — certainly no one would choose that kind of outcome! — and so no moral content. All he was trying to do was fulfill an essential male human need to get laid [women, if you want to know how this feels, try holding your breath for two minutes, then do it again ten minutes later, then again; while doing this, see how easy it is for you to concentrate on anything but your next breath], which I certainly wouldn’t condemn. He followed the best advice he could find, didn’t stoop to rape, blackmail, or prostitution, and was rewarded with the torture of waking death.

          .

          It shouldn’t take a genius to see that the slutty girl and the hapless beta are not on the same moral plane; so, no, Verie I think with all due respect that your contention is simply ridiculous.

          .

          [* Arguably -- and since someone may be tempted to argue it, I'll try to head this off pre-emptively -- the hapless beta did make one general choice, which was not to attempt to sleep with unacceptably unattractive (aka ugly) girls. If you want to get on a high horse about how this makes him complicit or unsympathetic, knock yourself out; but the essential point remains the same, which is that the slutty girl had vastly more choice available and so is vastly more responsible for her past than is the hapless beta.]

        • verie44

          You already made the point I was going to make at the bottom. That sort of nullifies your argument, but have no fear, even though you went about it in a way that wasn’t convincing to me, the guys above you did a good job.

        • Dilithium

          even though you went about it in a way that wasn’t convincing to me

          .

          Then I can’t really put much stock in your many claims of being logical. But that’s OK: honestly, I’ve never been convinced by anything you’ve written here, so I guess that makes us even.

        • verie44

          See, I get chewed out when I don’t use qualifiers for not being sensitive and then I get called illogical when I do. It’s not the point to argue semantics/wording here (or at least it’s not my object), so I try to minimize those objections before they happen. I suppose I should stop trying to please everyone. So I’ll rephrase the way I should have written it originally:
          .
          You already made the point I was going to make at the bottom, which nullifies your argument. Even though you wrote an unconvincing argument with an obvious hole in it, the guys above you did a much better job and I’m convinced of the overall point.
          .
          There we go. I took out the qualifying words that make people feel better. Also, you don’t have to get your feelings hurt & do the tit for tat “you’re unconvincing too!” remark. It’s not personal — the next thing you say I may very well agree with.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          The essential act is that she chose to follow the “indulgence-as-empowerment” norm (some call it feminist), while the “respect yourself” and even “try to find a decent, stable guy” norms were also freely available to her but she chose not to follow them.

          Maybe she was just behaving in accordance with what her mother told her. Guys often claim here that they were deceived by well-meaning but clueless mothers who told them all the wrong information about what women really want. Wouldn’t those same mothers, espousing the feminist norm, have told their daughters that sex can be empowering?
          I’m not sure that the “try to find a decent, stable guy” norms were still prevalent in most American households in the last 40 years. In this way, today’s young women are equally victims of the Sexual Rev.

        • Meg

          I think the best advice for a beta who can’t act confident would be to put aside all bitterness or expectations and pursue actual friendships with women. Any women. Even if you would never sleep with them. You’ll start to see women as people and not intimidating pick-up targets. These friendships should involve hanging out in groups or in public, texting or emailing instead of calling, and not being so close that she’ll talk to you about guys. Just be a fun person that she feels comfortable around. The trick is that you have to genuinely want to be friends with her. Don’t try anything sexual or romantic and she’ll be comfortable and will probably eventually start wondering if you are attracted to her. And even if you don’t develop feelings for her, at least you’ll get practice talking to a girl, and that might help you be more confident when you’re actually trying to pick up.

          And I know a lot of betas won’t believe this because of all the talk about the Friend Zone, but the truth is that most normal girls develop feelings for every one of their guy friends at some point.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Meg, I think this is excellent advice. It applies to women too – in general, there’s not enough emphasis on friendship. It’s ironic because hanging out in groups has replaced dating, and there are more cross-sex friendships than when I was growing up.
          However, I suspect that many men who are stuck in the friend zone would argue the point that if they wait long enough, the girl they like will start to see them differently. It definitely does happen, but it’s by no means guaranteed, or even likely, perhaps.

        • Tim

          Terrible advice. I thought you were a little more realistic, Susan, being over 50 years old now. I’m sorry people, life just isn’t fair. Beta men should never seek out friendship with women in the hopes one day she’ll fall for him and give him a pity fuck. Beta males will forever do the necessary work of keeping society running, while alpha males will get all the poon. Just the way it is. Same as it always was. 90% of women are attracted to the top 10% of men. Period. End of story. I’m sorry, it’s a cruel story, but it’s the truth. Women will always desire the strong and powerful prince. Don’t deny it. But 90% of all males are socially inept workhorses. Deal with it. The future belongs to cyber porn and fuck dolls for men, and vibrators and dildos for women. Marriage rates will continue to tank. Sales of romance novels and emotional porn will continue to soar. This is the future. Handle it.

        • Meg

          I agree, and that’s why I said the trick is to actually want to be friends with her. Women know when you’re trying to be friends with them in the hopes of a pity fuck. It may only happen when there is still a little distance and mystery, but girls develop feelings for their guy friends. This has happened to every girl I know at some point. That being said, by “guy friend” I don’t mean someone who does things for you all the time and chooses you over other girls and waits around for you to get dumped. What I mean is just someone you know that you talk to on a semi-regular basis. My advice was that guys should pursue friendships with women in the hopes that it might make them more comfortable around all women, and because it gives you a situation where you’re interacting with a woman without pressure to impress her. Just as an anecdote, the most recent guy I’ve had feelings for I knew for ten years before anything happened. And he wasn’t waiting around and I wasn’t stringing him along, it just didn’t click until then.

        • Meg

          Oops, I was trying to quote Tim saying that betas should never pursue friendships with a woman in the hopes of getting a pity fuck.

        • Tim

          Meg, I don’t know how old you are but I am an aging, 40 yr old jerk. I try to be civil online but it’s difficult for me. I’m working on it. If you meet a guy and one day you have kids, your life will become all about business. You’ll have to take several years off of work to raise kids. You can’t get around that. Sure, you could avail yourself of daycare, but it’s expensive and plus american girls don’t want to do that. This isn’t Singapore. One day you’ll look at your man and no feelings will register; no romance, nothing. The only thing that will matter is how well he provides for you and the kids. You’ll want a house, and you’ll want to decorate it. You’ll also want a pool, maybe vacations, and maybe private piano lessons for your son or daughter. The purpose of a husband is his strength. He doesn’t have to be the best looking guy; women will select for a variety of traits, but strength always tops the list.

          But ok, let’s say you fall in love with your ‘friend’. The above still applies. You’re going to have to shit-test your ‘friend’. If you are an ‘equalist’ woman, that is, you sincerely believe you should be doing an equal amount of work as your man, then none of the above applies to you. But you would be an extremely rare woman.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          What I seconded was not the claim that women will become attracted to betas if they hang in there long enough. In fact, I specifically said that this was “by no means likely.” Meg suggested that for men who can’t comfortably interact with women, pursuing female friendships is a more winning approach than anger or bitterness. I’ll stand by that. Many couples start out as friends, and feelings develop over time. But even if that didn’t happen, taking a guy with zero game and giving him a female friend to hang with is going to help him understand women better.

          90% of women are attracted to the top 10% of men.

          I’m noticing significant creep in this number. Less than a year ago, all the men were claiming the 80/20 rule. Now it’s 90/10? What is your basis for this claim?

        • Tim

          Ok, that sounds fair enough. I’m a little out of the loop as I’m not in college or dating right now. It may be that men have changed, I don’t know. I couldn’t be a friend with a female. I could now, but not when I was younger. The sexual urge is brutal in young men, so I don’t know how a young man could content himself with being a friend. But I’m open to it. If it works for Meg, that’s cool.

          I’m flexible on the 90/10. It can be 80/20. But you get the point, and I also think you agree. Let’s be honest: women marry up, never down. Dating/marrying down is a tremendous insult to a woman. However, given the very real statistics that are coming out now, american women are going to be in for a real shock: they will indeed be marrying down, and the country won’t look anything at all what it traditionally looked like. Women’s salaries continue to go up, and men’s continue to go down. The only strategy for men will be game. Then again, maybe men and women just won’t get together and marriage rates will continue to drop. But i digress.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Yeah, I do get the point. In particular, women are going to have to marry down wrt education, which translates to long-term income. It will be interesting to see whether women with degrees will embrace relationship with men who work in the trades. Some will, for sure, but many will find it unacceptable to compromise their expectations.
          Therefore, the number of single women who are unhappy about that will skyrocket. It’s inevitable.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          @Tim

          One day you’ll look at your man and no feelings will register; no romance, nothing. The only thing that will matter is how well he provides for you and the kids.

          Didn’t happen to me, happily married to a beta male for 25 years. In fact, I wonder where you get the evidence for such an extraordinary claim. If this has been your experience, I’m sorry and I’m sure you find support on various MRA sites. I’m not sure what your motive might be in telling young Meg here that relationships suck and then you die. That is not the universal experience with relationships, or marriage either.

        • Meg

          What does shit-test mean here? Obstacles that are meant to make a guy prove he wants you? Or prove he’s good enough?

          If your love is going to die anyway, wouldn’t you be better off marrying someone that you know you can at least be friends with? And if he’s the type of guy that’s a good friend, isn’t that an indicator that he will most likely at least try to provide for you if he marries you?

          Are you saying that men shouldn’t bother being friends with women because even if it turns into something romantic, the friendship and love will disappear and the woman will still treat you like you’re just a provider?

        • Tim

          I’m glad you’ve been happily married to a beta male for 25 years, and I’m also glad for him. I mean that, it’s refreshing news.

          But we should be honest. How hard does he work, your husband? Does he pay with blood, sweat and tears? I understand that pregnancy is difficult, but you can take an epidural. Who provides you with this cozy little blog and comfortable home? The heat, water and electricity? Do you really pay half? Seriously? Be honest, please.

          @Meg,

          If your love is going to die anyway, wouldn’t you be better off marrying someone that you know you can at least be friends with? And if he’s the type of guy that’s a good friend, isn’t that an indicator that he will most likely at least try to provide for you if he marries you?

          If this is the way you think, then you don’t need my advice. You’re already a good heart and good soul.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          What I disagree with, is your claim that women will inevitably lose all feelings of love, affection and desire for their husbands, prioritizing only his salary. Most couples both work and as I’m sure you know, in 22% of marriages the woman makes more than the man.

        • Meg

          Haha, thanks Tim.

        • Mike

          There are hard cases, and it would be better to see/hear some advice that they can use, that doesn’t center on acting.

          They are SOL, and would be best served trying to find contentment in other areas of life. My brother was diagnosed with Aspergers about 1.5 years ago. He is 30+ and AFAIK has never been on a single date or kissed a girl. He actually understands the theory of Game quite well as we discuss it extensively but he has ZERO hope of ever applying it successfully.

          The world is unfair and not everyone can get everything they want whatever the domain of life.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          I have no brief for W&N in particular, but I dispute the narrow claim that “game works for everyone but him”

          The problem is that most men who have tried “game” have failed not because they lacked anything but because “game” itself doesn’t exist. Most of us aren’t going to bother arguing against “game” in the pro-”game” echo chamber. I’m something of an exception in that regard.

        • Sox

          No, most that try it fail because they never put in the necessary work.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          You have no way of testing that so you can’t know that.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          have no clue what they hell he stands up for

          Reality.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    So we have a clear case here of the age-old dilemma, nice guys finishing last.
    For that specific quote, my main point was that she was treating these two guys as if they were archetypal characters in her own little play. The reality was neither was really an option for her. The cad was off the table because he dumped her, plus he didn’t have a job, etc. The perfect provider beta was off the table because she just wasn’t into him. But reality didn’t stop her from pretending she had her own little version of Twilight going on in her life, with two archetypes competing for her choice.

    This is really critical relating to the flowchart. The first decision box is tongue in cheek but unfortunately sometimes applicable. She didn’t need advice on which non existent guy to choose. She needed to go out and meet real men, and then choose from them.

    I probably should do a follow up post explaining what imaginary men are. If you describe him as “He would be the perfect guy if only…” then he probably is imaginary. It doesn’t much matter how you finish the sentence:

    If he wasn’t a fictional character.
    If he didn’t like to wear women’s clothing.
    If he wasn’t already married.
    If he wasn’t gay.
    If he hadn’t taken out that restraining order against me.
    If he wanted more from me than a pump and dump.
    If he wasn’t an amalgamation of all the best qualities of every man I’ve ever dated.

    These guys shouldn’t be what you use to decide what your real options look like. But I get the sense that too often this is the case. The problem is, as a woman you aren’t getting any younger/hotter/well, you know. And while you are playing fantasy in your mind the other women are snapping up the best guys. Ever been to the bakery section in your local grocery store late at night, after everyone else chose? It isn’t pretty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, I love it! Her own little Twilight. I saw that on your blog, but I don’t think I really absorbed it until just now.
      Re the “if only’s”: I wrote a post about a book called Undateable. The review and interview with the author made me so angry. She was divorced, and told a story. She said that she had been out to dinner with a man that she had a wonderful time with. They had great conversation and much in common. But, she said, a second date was impossible because he had a soul patch. ???? This was not tongue in cheek. She was in earnest. Her friends pointed out that he could easily shave it off, it wasn’t a big deal. Her reply? “He can never shave off the part of his brain that told him it was a good idea in the first place.” So here’s a smart woman, with a bestseller on her hands and no man in her bed. I guess we all decide what’s important in life.
      Also included in that post was a list of some of the “dealbreakers” I thought were ridiculous. One of them was owning a denim couch. Honestly, what’s wrong with that? Isn’t that something that Pottery Barn sells? Anyway, I was on a radio show after that and the co-host said, “Hey, I couldn’t believe that about the denim couch.” I replied, “I know, that’s ridiculous.” And she answered, “Seriously. If I went into a guy’s apartment and he had a denim couch, I would turn right around and walk out.”
      .
      After the show, she said, “I’m 32, do you think I can still find the guy?” I said of course, but honestly, I suspect she has already found several guys and rejected them.
      Here’s my advice to women:
      Forget the facial hair, forget the furniture, don’t worry so much about the fashion sense. If you can imagine jumping his bones in less than a month after being marooned on a desert island, he deserves serious consideration.

      • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

        “Forget the facial hair, forget the furniture, don’t worry so much about the fashion sense. If you can imagine jumping his bones in less than a month after being marooned on a desert island, he deserves serious consideration.”

        This made me laugh so hard for some reason. I think when people find these sort of oddly specific things they’re looking for a reason not to like someone. I mean – as a general rule I find I’m not a big fan of facial hair overall. However, my current crush randomly forgets to shave at times and grew a beard as part of a costume for a week at camp. And I was totally into it. Never before have I found myself attracted to someone with facial hair.

        Sometimes people need to get past the packaging I think. Things like wanting someone who doesn’t smoke – that I understand. But other little cosmetic things? Get over it.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Haha, yeah. I was only half joking about the Desert Island test. If you can imagine a scenario where the guy is building a fire and being all resourceful and gets dirty and scruffy and you could see rolling around in the sand with him, he’s got potential. If, on the other hand, you’d have no desire to hook up with the last man in your world, or even worse feel repulsed by the thought, that probably isn’t going to change.
          .
          But it might!

        • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

          I can understand that some people are just going to be interested in some people – btu I feel like many overly picky people eliminate people before they even really know them. Or they find some other nit-pick because they know them. It makes no sense to me.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Well, RT, I think you’re more highly evolved than most women. You demonstrate clearly an ability to think rationally even in the presence of the men that so many women crave. Seriously, just keep doing what you’re doing. You are on exactly the right path, IMO.

        • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

          This is what happens when you’re single. You become very introspective. Kindda wish I had something to show for it though…lol.

          What really makes me laugh though is that other girls seem to consistently perceive me as a threat because I fit in so easily and can be “one of the guys” but that’s exactly what makes me not a threat because if I’m “one of the guys” the guys don’t look at me as a potential girlfriend.

          But there’s still potential for the current crush. We’ll see if I can woman up about it and get some follow through.

      • Nisie

        I had a friend who once swore that she would never date a redneck- no huntin’, fishin’, four wheelin’, truck drivin’, nascar watchin’ man for her.

        I met a guy who drove over some pretty bad roads for two hours in Feb in his truck to shovel my car out when I hurt my back. He’s gotten me to go fishing with him, ride four wheelers, and to love venison. He owns his own house, is a mid-level manager in a multi-billion dollar company, and treats me like a queen. I no longer have that friend however…. His hobbies give me time to do what I like that he wouldn’t enjoy, and we’re happier for it.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Nisie, I love this! Good for you – sounds like you reeled in a big fish! Seriously, he sounds like a generous man of good character who has interests, ambition and is a highly competent person in general.
          Grerp’s advice to “Jettison the Toxic Female Friends” is so true!
          As for your friend’s demeaning description, she could be talking about Brad Paisley or Dierks Bentley – that’s ridiculous!

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    Hi Vincent. I think your view is biased by the women who are attracted to you. There actually are a significant number of women who don’t long for badboys. But they are invisible to you as a PUA much the same way Betas are invisible to alpha chasers.

    I’m not a fan of trying to pull carousel riders out of the alpha chase and talking them into settling for some poor beta. He’ll have plenty of real options (a mid to greater beta will at least). The retired alpha chaser who tells herself she is “trying to do the right thing” when she suckers some poor lesser beta into supporting her isn’t making the world a better place. I think you suggested something similar in your recent post on stringing women along.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thank you Dalrock. This is something I often claim and am met with dubious responses from the guys. Many women don’t long for badboys. There are certain women who do, but it depends on personality traits, including one’s level of risk aversion (low), extraversion (high), and neuroticism (high), all of which lead in the direction of the dopamine rush of the Misunderstood Outsider. Many women understand the attraction, but also the risks, and do not feel compelled to pursue these men. Other women have zero interest in such men. They are repelled by their cocky behavior and their cold, emotionless demeanor. There’s a spectrum of female sexual attraction. It’s simply not true that 100% of women want bad boys. If I had to guess I would say that 75% of women find bad boys attractive, and 25% will actively pursue them. Of course, those sexually aggressive women who pursue are much more conspicuous than the 25% of women who want nothing to do with such men.

      • greenfieldnews

        This is very true.(I’m flattered to have been quoted, so I’m sure Ill be posting a lot on this thread.) I’ve talked before about my friend who’s the badboy-the one that, yes, I’m crushing on, even though it goes no where. But my bunch of female friends, all rational and lovely ladies, despise him and his bad boy behavior. The drinking, the partying, the sleeping around. They feel absolutely no spark for him, even if they consider him physically attractive.
        Interestingly enough, said bad boy has a stepbrother who is basically what I think of as an awesome beta. Quiet, but witty once you get to know him. Kind, always there to be the d.d. for his drunken brother, doesn’t drink more than tea most days, and yet social adjusted enough to go to parties and chat with girls.
        My friends love him! They are all currently vying for his attention, and his brother, the manwhore isn’t surprised at all, pointing out that by and large, quality girls go for quality guys. There might be a lot of girls like me who feel the spark for those James Dean, Han Solo types, but by and large,most smart girls recognize the attraction as a bad thing, and ignore it (perhaps after loving one or two rebels), falling for the sweet, tea drinking types It’s not settling at all. It’s realizing that a cookie a day is far better than death by one incredibility chocolaty disaster dessert. I think Susan’s percentages are spot on.

  • Vincent Ignatius

    Given the nature of female sexual attraction (hypergamy) we can hardly expect most marriages to have that spark for a woman in a society where monogamy is the norm. That’s why young girls need the advice of wiser women to tell them when they should accept a man’s proposal rather than holding out for the badboy who they’ll never be able to keep anyway.

    We need to be honest with young girls. If you want to chase the magical spark, you probably won’t find a man to marry. If you’re dead set on getting married, don’t hold out for the spark. Basically, girls need to understand that the quality of a man that will bang them is much higher than the quality of a man that will marry them.

    • verie44

      However, it’s obvious that a man who will marry them will also bang them, so really is it surprising that so many are confused as to their level? It’s much clearer for guys — women never sleep down unless they have low self-esteem.

      • Vincent Ignatius

        She could pay attention to how he treats her rather than how much he wants to bang her. Susan’s post about hooking up stupid is a good example of this. If she just opened her eyes for a minute, she would realize that guy is out of her league, or at the very least not looking for anything serious right now.

        • verie44

          Obviously. That’s the point of the blog. I’m saying women get more confused upfront. It’s like a rich man — (like Mel Gibson) that get all surprised that women use them for money. They’re drowning in female attention, and then are confused when these women don’t want them for more than their bank accounts. Same deal.

      • Mike

        so really is it surprising that so many are confused as to their level?

        Shouldn’t be. Does he go out with you in public? Does he introduce you to his friends? Does he introduce you to his family? Does he talk about his goals, future dreams etc. with you? Or does he just call you late at night to “watch a movie” or to head out and “grab a quick drink”. Actually, it is very, very, very easy to know a guy that wants you just for convenient sex versus LTR potential. But the female has to be willing to turn off the self-delusion switch.

        • verie44

          Not every guy just booty calls girls — that’s the 20% alphas you’re talking about. Most of the pairings that turn out badly are guys who are just not interested in relationships / do dirt on the side while making girls think they’re exclusive (implying it by omission) so as not to rock the boat. In other words, they act like boyfriends to avoid losing the girls, but avoid having the talk for as long as possible so they can be technically free to do whatever they want. This is just as much of a fail for a girl as the booty texter.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          HERE!!!!! This is key. There are tons of guys who get some action with girls, who fall into this category. They probably fit the description of beta males, who knows. They are not the cads, and they are not chick magnets. They are also not pathetic losers. Most importantly, they are not automatically interested in the love of a good woman and a committed relationship. Especially in college, a lot of these guys would rather string along one girl while trying to leverage that social proof than commit. That’s a reflection of the SMP.

        • verie44

          PS: you realize that a lot of men have figured out that these things have a positive effect on women, right? I have a friend who dated a guy who constantly talked about kids & types of strollers, invited her to meet his parents, shared his hopes & dreams, she knew most of his friends. They dated for 3 months before she realized he was doing the same thing with 2 other girls. His parents had met literally so many of his “girlfriends,” they were tired of it.

          It happens a lot — guys know that’s what girls want to hear. It’s not a screening criteria.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          This is what I was referring to when I talked about cads being very good at pretending to be nice guys. Many of them have this down to a science.

        • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

          I have a friend who dated a guy who constantly talked about kids & types of strollers, invited her to meet his parents, shared his hopes & dreams, she knew most of his friends. They dated for 3 months before she realized he was doing the same thing with 2 other girls.

          Interesting. I wondered if this wouldn’t become another part of the arms race on previous post here. Women are telegraphing that they will sleep around with the guys they want in their 20s, then snag a hapless beta provider when they hit their 30s. If I was a lesser beta, I’d consider this a fertile niche. Pose as a hapless beta looking to be a provider, then string them along for a while. They are in full blown (pardon the pun) bag a husband mode, so the sex would probably be the best she had to offer. Conning con artists can be surprisingly easy.

          Not that every woman who waits to marry is like that, so there will be some additional innocent casualties. But for the lesser beta who gets the last laugh on the manipulative alpha chaser, it would seem to be very appealing.

          White and Nerdy, etc. Keep studying those game books. Your day could yet be coming…

        • verie44

          Sorry, she’s 24, not some thirties cougar.

        • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

          Sure why not? If the opportunity presented itself for something like that I might take it. I still not going to eat a sh*t sandwich. If she’s so used up and stretched out that sex is like throwing hot dog down a hallway the Grand Canyon, forget it.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          For the record, this idea that gets thrown around about women’s vaginas getting stretched out from sex is ludicrous. They can get stretched out from childbirth, but even that is no longer necessary – the OB can stitch things up quite nicely.
          .
          The muscles in the walls of the vagina are extremely elastic. That’s why a vagina can grip a small tampon and hang on to it, and also accomodate a penis, or deliver a child. Further, if the pelvic floor muscles are strong (via Kegels or just naturally) the woman can grip the penis firmly.
          .
          Women are not made like the elastic in a waistband. We don’t just wear out and fail to spring back over time.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          I’m just wondering how the terms hapless and beta got linked. As you know, I’m not one for the whole beta = loser concept.

        • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

          It’s primarily from Roissy and he’s badly wrong about the Beta = loser thing. Alpha and Beta Traits are separate things and not an either/or option.

        • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

          I’m just wondering how the terms hapless and beta got linked. As you know, I’m not one for the whole beta = loser concept.

          Fair question. I don’t ascribe to that idea either. As you know, I don’t hesitate to call myself beta. Perhaps this is because my initial exposure to this term is from Citizen Renegade, and his definition of the terms Alpha and Beta are largely about one’s willingness and ability to remain faithful in a monogamous relationship. According to CR, you could be a smart fearsome warrior, a leader of men, and hung like a clydesdale. But you would still be Beta if you don’t run through women like nerds at a LAN party run through cheetos.

          I’m calling them hapless because they are the intended mark in the carousel rider’s scheme.

          Admittedly I do call them Nerds in my new blog post covering this exact topic . I know Beta != Nerd but I couldn’t resist the title. Revenge of the Nerds had so much more panache than Revenge of the Betas would have, don’t you think?

          Plus I figure as an avowed Beta I have a bit of extra license.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Well, I do think guys can call themselves whatever they want, but I like it when guys are unabashed about being who they are. My husband is happy to say he’s a beta guy. He’s reserved, not really trying to lead a bunch of warriors or anything. He doesn’t feel the need to espouse this “alpha” persona. He’s top 5% in several ways, and if you tell him he’s not in the top 20% for testosterone driven behavior, he’ll say “OK.”

        • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

          I think you will like my current post then.

        • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

          My new post is about this specific question: This is What a Beta Looks Like.

    • Aldonza

      Basically, girls need to understand that the quality of a man that will bang them is much higher than the quality of a man that will marry them.

      I’m not entirely convinced of this…except if she defined “quality” as a social-alpha, manwhore.

      • Vincent Ignatius

        Using strength of tingle as a proxy for quality.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          I fear they are often inversely correlated.

      • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

        I’m not entirely convinced of this…except if she defined “quality” as a social-alpha, manwhore.

        You make an excellent point, but his premise is still very true. Even nice guys who would make excellent husbands sleep with or even have LTRs with women they would never marry. Think about it numbers wise, if a guy has 3-5 partners before marriage (low estimate?), do you think he really wanted to marry them all? If he proposed (or wanted to propose) to every girl he ever slept with before he met you, you wouldn’t be interested in him?

        I would say a conservative estimate is if a Beta wants to nail you, he is 5 times more likely to not want to marry you as he is to see you as marriage material. I’m not trying to be harsh, but reality is helpful in the end.

  • greenfieldnews

    It’s true about all spark and nothing to burn not working out. And I know that women seem cabable of producing a spark from proximity, from watching him interact with children, etc. Sometimes it almost seems like that biological clock has us programed to fall in love easily. But the thing that made me make that quoted comment, is that it’s hard to hear it from the other side. We want to believe that all guys feel the spark with all women they hang out with. Isn’t that what cosmo tells us? But to hear from a male friend that you’re close to, that you’ve had romantic encounters with before, that there is no spark, makes you feel like he’s not trying hard enough to find one. I almost feel like and i am flawed for thinking this, that it should be true-that guys should are the ones with a match burning for any pretty lady, and we have the fuse and the privilege of letting that spark happen or not.
    In short, I got to feel like one of those rejected beta male friends, and quite frankly, it sucks.
    I’ve vowed to never use the “you’re too good a friend to lose” or “There’s not a spark” answers any more in rejecting the advances of a friend.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    This from Susan needs some serious & urgent consideration (again): “Forget the facial hair, forget the furniture, don’t worry so much about the fashion sense. If you can imagine jumping his bones in less than a month after being marooned on a desert island, he deserves serious consideration”.

    But you know? It’s like the blind leading the blind here. For many gals under the age of 30 say? This stuff is either invisible or just lost on them. They’re out there bent on having fun. And for a certain portion of them? They’re just never going to get married, and mostly that’s just fine with them. They’ll likely never miss it. They might miss the ‘thrill’ of having children, but then again it’s still easy enough to ‘accidentally on purpose’ get pregnant in your early 30′s too. Any bar fly will do in a storm.

    By the time they come to either question or even qualify that ever elusive ‘tingle’? Most of the reasons it’s there have gone by & flown away. It’s a transitory effect that many long married folks would squint in wonder of vauge recognition over. ‘Herm, you recall that? Nope not really, I gave up with the tacit agreement of ’86 about the 3 Min hummers, Dolly! Seemed to be a natural sort of relaxation technique to firm up & practice on. How about you? Herm, I gave that all up with the birth of Tommy. If they’d just stitched me back together so I could sneeze proper again, I said I’d be happy. And I was true to my word!’

    So gradually, and only slowly does anyone wake up and languidly realize that chasing to the ends of the earth for the elusive & special ‘tingle’? Is a massive waste of time. There’s some push, pull dynamics here too. You can recreate the tingle, should you want to go there. No really, you can. But you’ve got to Want To. To be there & like Available & Loving to, for & with Someone Else. That’s the key here. It’s not all about you. Not ALL the time. It’s sometimes about US, togetherness & Family. That’s where the tingle goes. It’s not just all this ‘instant sexual’ attraction bs. The tingle Can be developed later. But the loving & respect are important too. If you don’t love her/him and don’t respect them? Don’t get married. And most likely? You would not last long in any relationship lacking these either. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To be there & like Available & Loving to, for & with Someone Else. That’s the key here. It’s not all about you. Not ALL the time. It’s sometimes about US, togetherness & Family. That’s where the tingle goes.

      Beautifully said, VJ.
      On a different note, I’d like to spend more time with Herm and Dolly. They’re a hoot.

  • mgambale

    I propose that Sense and Sensibility deserves a citation here. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Mgambale good to see you! Haha, I agree! I always welcome a hat tip to Jane. Colonel Brandon is a no brainer, but do you think Edward Ferrars would qualify as well? He’s certainly not a socially dominant male. Proof perhaps that women do feel the spark for the nice guys?

  • (r)Evolutionary

    Susan, I love that you admitted getting the tingle for the asshole at work after a few months, and then lost the attraction when he went beta. LOVE it! It proves the model.
    I have to say, I am more heartened by reading your blog than reading any of the other game blogs out there. It gives a sense that yes, there are a few quality women out there who aren’t on the carousel, who are looking for quality guys.
    And your admission somehow still shows me in yet a new way, that game IS an important relationship tool, and a great LTR is my goal. I’ve been in them before, and truth be told, I think falling into some beta subroutines that contributed to the loss of an amazing relationship. At this point, I’m not willing to give up game, because it’s about the only thing that men have that levels the playing field. But I’m not actively trying to increase my notch count, either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (r)Evolutionary, let me clarify. I had a dream that caused the tingle, yes. I guess that means I must have been attracted to him on a subconscious level. Or at least got turned on by the idea of “giving in” to him. However, I never would have dated him. I knew he was a conceited snob and I didn’t like his personality.
      However, he did not go beta. Prior to my having that dream, he ran asshole game and I never took the bait. After the dream, he could see that something had changed. He went into charming cad mode, not beta mode. He was still cocky, he just became more winning in his demeanor. Had he behaved just like that when I met him, I probably would have fallen into the trap so many women do. The trap set by the cad pretending to be a good guy who is genuinely interested.
      Having said this, game certainly can be a great tool for getting into a relationship, and maintaining one too. I wholeheartedly endorse your goals, so anything that helps you get there is good for both you and women. Win-win.

  • Kurt

    Susan, do you think that a lot of these “nice guys” have had so little success with women that they truly cannot tell whether a woman they are dating really loves them? It’s sad that a guy could be dating a woman for two years and not realize or at least suspect that she wasn’t totally committed to him. I hope that woman does break up with him because he’ll probably have nurses or other women chasing after him with he is a doctor.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kurt, good question! I can’t imagine why this pre med student wouldn’t have demanded more from a relationship. Perhaps it was a lack of experience, but don’t you think we’re all programmed to recognize real commitment or depth of feeling? Surely he would have sensed that his level of emotional investment was much greater than hers.
      As for his market value, I agree. In fact, I thought it was hilarious that she was dumping a future doctor because of unresolved feelings for an unemployed guy in a band. Which raises an interesting question – I wonder if sometimes women can’t get up the spark, so to speak, because they’re harboring memories of the “highs” they felt during a doomed relationship with a cad or other unsuitable man.

      • Kurt

        The pre-med student must be far too immature himself to get married right now. Honestly, the type of woman who would go for an unemployed doucher in a band is not the type of girl I would want, nor should he.

        If the guy is a pre-med, then he must still be in college. Even if they were to get married right now, they would almost certainly get divorced before that guy finishes medical school and his residency. She definitely doesn’t appreciate him now and will grow to resent him for failing to give her enough attention when he is slaving away in medical school and as a resident.

    • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

      I agree. I think not recognizing that a woman doesn’t love you is a mark of inexperience in a man. I argued much the same thing in the comments section on my own site, and I think it is worth pasting here:

      I think we’ve both seen young men who picked say an 8 who didn’t love him over a 7 who did, and was miserable as a result. Luckily as I said I think men start to get much wiser on this specific issue once they are just a little older. Guys with options by that age know what it feels like to be loved and once they experience this won’t settle for anything less. So the 7s, 8s and even 9s who for whatever reason can’t fall in love end up digging much deeper. They pull lesser betas or even omegas out of retirement.

      This is something I don’t see discussed in the manosphere. Some women make it to their 30s and while they may take a slight hit because of lost youth still marry quite well (I think you know such a person…). Others remain quite beautiful but can’t even pull mid level betas. They settle for a guy who never really had any success with women, and he’s so grateful to finally have a pretty girl in his life that he overlooks the fact that she is incapable of love. I think people misread this because on paper the guy seems ideal. Lesser Betas are after all perfect marriage material. He’s probably not bad looking and has a decent job, and the nicest guy you could ask for. But he’s just not the guy other women were ever interested in.

  • http://www.collegehookupculture.com Denice Ann Evans

    There are lots of different theories about that “spark.” Chemical attraction is at the root of most “love or lust at first sight” scenarios. What I have come to learn over the years through my research and through my own experience is that when you meet a person who ignites that “spark” immediately, then that is the moment in time you need to take ten steps back and not rush forward like a moth to a burning flame. When you meet someone you are instantly attracted to, most of the time, it is the Oxytocin releasing its chemical buzz and not “love at first sight.” Usually that initial chemical reaction creates an attraction that is not based on a true love, intimacy, or deep knowledge about that person. To acquire those things you need TIME. You need to be in many different situations with a person before you can really know what they are like and if they are going to be long term relationship material (presuming that is what you are after, if not then please stop reading this post now..hahaha) So, spending time, let me repeat T-I-M-E getting to know a person is vital to keeping that sexual attraction alive. Oxytocin will keep you in the la-la land of lust & pseudo-love for around 3 to 3 1/2 months, up to 5 months in some cases, then it will drop you on your head with a huge thud when it wears off (which it does.) If couples haven’t started to develop deeper bonds of friendship and love by this time, then it will be obvious that there is nothing else going on. The four to five month mark is a good time to reevaluate your relationship and start to grow in ways that lead to deeper intimacy that will ultimately keep that wonderful SPARK going!
    http://www.collegehookupculture.com

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Denice, thanks for this awesome comment. Great advice here for men and women alike.

  • (r)Evolutionary

    Kurt, Susan,
    to speak to your question about why some quality men like premed boy don’t ask for more in relationships–naivete is the word. Men, especially those who had a solid traditional upbringing by a traditional alpha father & a doting, devoted mother–they end up VERY naive as to the nature of women in today’s hypergamous, female-entitlement milleiu.

    Mark Bachman over at thebetterbetablog wrote a great piece on this.

    I think he’s spot-on, though Mark does fall easily into an angry beta tone at times.

    Check it out.
    http://thebetterbetablog.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/how-alpha-fathers-raise-beta-sons/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wow, I just checked out that blog, which seems awesome. Most surprisingly, I’m on his blogroll! I had no idea. I need to spend more time over there and introduce myself. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    OK, I found some details. Here’s the original query:
    .
    Three years ago, I fell madly in love with this lively, fascinating guy (plays in a band, popular, surprises you at work with chocolate, picks you wild flowers type of guy). We had similar thoughts and passions and were able to understand each other incredibly well. He could read me like no one else, inspired me, and made me think and laugh and cry. We had dynamic “chemistry” — the unexplainable connection that movies and songs are made of. I had never felt so drawn to someone before and we shared close, deep (non-physical) times together.

    When he dumped me, I felt my heart would never mend and three years later, I still struggle with that relationship loss. I was hoping he would want me back some time later when another guy was interested in me. When he didn’t come rushing after me (he eventually dropped out of college and joined a commune, making him an unmarriable companion for me) I threw my emotions aside and logically moved on to a stable, committed relationship with this new person.

    Now, I have been dating this guy (pre-med, kind of nerdy, logical, strategic type of guy) for two years. He is completely opposite of the first guy. He is smart, consistent, predictable, and incredibly faithful. He wants to honor me, provide for me, and marry me. He has been very intentional with my parents and with his desire to love and cherish only me. I love him very much, but we do not have the same “chemistry” that I shared with the first person. We have problems and have to work through them. We disagree on things and have to compromise. There is no “magic” and I feel I could logically live without him if we broke up.

    I just saw the first guy again this week and was reminded again how strong the chemistry is between us. I miss the life, excitement, and passion of the first guy, but obviously he is not the right mate for me. I have a logical love for the second guy, but can I marry him knowing that we do not have a similar connection?

    He really doesn’t sound bad, just lacking in focus and ambition.

    A blogger by the name of Aunt Haley, who writes a Christian blog for singles but also frequents Game blogs wrote about it and had this to say:
    .
    The real problem is that Pre-Med is a classic, boring Beta who knows zip about female attraction psychology, has DLVed himself to a level of almost zero by virtue of his publicly broadcasted Oneitis and pedestalization, and, I’d wager a guess, not only has no clue about what’s going on in Reader’s head, but probably hasn’t made any meaningful sexual moves on Reader, either, out of “respect.” A toothless baby sounds more dangerous than Pre-Med. If anyone truly cared about Pre-Med’s precarious relationship health, he would send Pre-Med to Roissy and force him to educate himself before he lost Reader for good.
    .
    I have to say I think Aunt Haley makes a lot of sense here. Band Boy (perhaps not bad just irresponsible?) is not a viable marriage candidate. Perhaps Reformed Pre Med guy can spice things up, but honestly, I think it’s probably too late. He should still study Game and do better next time. It seems to me that the big loser here is the woman. She gets nuthin.’

    • Kurt

      Is Aunt Haley implying that the pre-med guy hasn’t had sex with that girl even though they’ve been dating for two years? I find that very hard to believe.

      The problem I see here is that the girl at issue is very immature and likely far too immature for marriage. She should dump the pre-med guy and go chase after that rocker loser. Being a pre-med right now is not yet that impressive. However, if that guy is smart enough to get into a good medical school and does well, he’ll look back in 10 years and thank his college girlfriend for dumping him.

      I’m surprised that someone who is probably very ambitious would be in such a hurry to get married while he is still a young kid. I am in my mid-30s myself and I attract women who are far superior to the ones I attracted when I was in college. That pre-med guy needs a woman who appreciates him, although he probably doesn’t even realize what he is capable of getting.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        The young people in question are apparently devout Christians, i.e. not having sex. They also sound very young. I agree that Pre Med guy deserves better and will certainly do better as he matures. I agree with Aunt Haley that he needs to knock this girl off the pedestal. Hopefully, the young woman will also mature in time and choose a man who shares her goals, which apparently do not include communal living and dropping out of college.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Just a few more thoughts here given the above from the original letter:

    1.) In every & all instances, it’s only when the woman has nowhere else left to go does she try to finally resort to the ‘beta’ finding strategy.

    2.) Even then? She’s clearly none to happy about this ‘acceptance’ bit, despite being perhaps a full decade older now from that first ‘wondrous love’. She’d like to get it all back. So would everyone. But facing reality a bit more well, firmly, we’ve come to know better.

    3.) It’s only long after the opportunity might be acted upon will the reluctant Ms. finally, regretfully come to the recognition that yes, that ‘better beta’ Doc was about the best prospect she’ll likely ever see in her lifetime. And there’s no similar offers in the offing.

    4.) Late in their 50′s perhaps, they might come to recognize that this earlier era of being ‘ruled by their emotional whims’ was indeed a profoundly ‘foolish one’. But by then? They’ll likely be quite alone in their regrets. Tea & sympathy with the cats is some small condolence but it’s not really the same as having a family.

    But again & again that’s what these errant descriptions remind us of. What do women want? Today more than ever before, ‘Fried ice’. The excitement of the smoldering, bed-able Alpha cad ready to be the caring, kind Beta dad. It’s just not happening kids. It’s the Null Set! Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What do women want? Today more than ever before, ‘Fried ice’. The excitement of the smoldering, bed-able Alpha cad ready to be the caring, kind Beta dad. It’s just not happening kids. It’s the Null Set!

      This is the red pill for women. Definitely not gonna happen. The thing is, the better beta doc is going to do just fine. When he’s a resident, he’ll demonstrate high value just by virtue of his control over life and death. He sounds very young, and will hopefully get a big reality check when she says bye bye. But she is hoping to reconcile with the lazy guy, despite the fact that at no time during the last three years has he indicated that he regrets breaking up with her. She is reminded how strong the chemistry is on her side. Shaking my head here.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    What exactly was “bad” about the “badboy” Dalrock?

    Or are we attached to our archetypes?

    Part of my point was that they were real men, but she was using them as archetypes. As I said in reference to a similar comment on my own blog, I was influenced by Haley in this regard, but any jumping to conclusions was my own.

    The thing is, archetypes are a matter of degree. This is a chaste Christian girl writing to Focus on the Family asking who to marry. Her idea of bad-boy rocker will probably be pretty tame by most standards. He’s a musician who dropped out of college to join a commune. I’m sure her folks had much harsher terms to represent their thoughts of him.

    • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

      @Bad Boy
      Mr. Pre-Med $$$ QUALITY $$$ GUY probably doesn’t do any romantic stuff for her and THAT’S WHY she’s not falling for him.

      Don’t take this the wrong way, but are you sure you are a dude?

      • Sox

        Good call on that, definitely had the impression he was a she.

    • greenfieldnews

      Ok, let me try. This girl has two in her life. They are well rounded, normal people. The med student might have a leather jacket,. The band guy might love kittens. However, this girl wants to see herself in a movie type scenario, like Bella in Twilight, or any other girl who gets to choose between the “bad boy and the good guy.”
      I’m actually trying to think of more examples of this storyline, but all i can think of is princess leia. And we all know, for good reason, she went for the bad boy.
      Anyway. The girl is so self centered, she DOESNT see the guy in a band as a person, or the Med student as a person. Neither one is all bad or all good, but she wants to see them this way. and she probably loves this song

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Oh boy, that song says it all. That’s the justification for Game right there.

      • I, Enemy Combatant

        I’m actually trying to think of more examples of this storyline, but all i can think of is princess leia. And we all know, for good reason, she went for the bad boy.

        To be more accurate, it is not as if there was another person with whom she could have gone.

      • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

        Wow. Thanks greenfieldnews. You really nailed it.
        .
        I hadn’t heard that song before even though I like the artist. It really encourages the exact wrong way to think. Stuff like this seems harmless, until you realize the power it can have over the way you live your life. In fact, it is only harmless if you do recognize the power it will have, at which point you tend to stop wanting to listen to it.
        .
        My wife and I knew a woman who married a man she didn’t love because she screwed around (FWB), got pregnant, and then decided she’d make an honest woman of herself. She married a few months before us and my wife and her were brides maids for each other. About three years into the marriage this woman started running exactly that script in her mind. But this was a while ago so the song this woman had in her head was Pearl Jam’s Can’t Find a Better Man.
        .
        For a few years after marriage the woman was pretty happy (no one is perfectly happy). She had a good life (no one has a perfect life). However, within months of this woman letting this Better Man script take hold she was divorced and a single mother. Since we had attended their wedding we tried to intervene, but it was hopeless. She tried to date around but even though she was still in her mid twenties she wasn’t the hot number in reality that she was in her mind. She generally was alone but from time to time found a man who would use her in one way or another. She finally broke up with one guy when she figured out that he and his female roomate didn’t share a bedroom to keep expenses down in a strictly platonic way like he had been telling her. He wasn’t even using her for sex, but as a babysitter for his (his and his roomate’s?) kids.
        .
        Several years after her divorce as reality creeped in this woman started slowly going insane. I’m not talking a little drama, but full blown living on the streets and being institutionalized insane. My wife and I were talking about her the other day and trying to guess what was cause and what was effect. Our best guess from knowing her before and after is the dumb choices caused the insanity and not the other way around. But who could say for sure? The sad thing is this woman isn’t the only one my wife has known who seemed pretty happy and then divorced, found out life didn’t really work like a Lifetime movie, and then literally went nuts. She watched another friend do just the same thing minus the living on the streets (but was institutionalized).
        .
        I’ve been challenged by commenters on my blog suggesting I want to frighten people (especially women) into doing something they don’t want to, specifically around divorce. I think people should do what they want, but they should understand the choices they are making and not let a fantasy script ruin their lives. I also think that since when you get married you take the trouble to involve your church, family, and everyone you know you were hinting that this was an important promise you actually intended to keep. Call me old fashioned. So this is what I had in mind with the final “Stop being a dumbass” box in the flowchart. It really is a critical step, and shouldn’t be skipped.
        .
        I also had this woman’s story close in my thoughts when I wrote my blog post Hypergamous Addiction to Choosing.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          That’s the most bizarre story I’ve ever heard! But you know what? I keep hearing more and more stories of women just up and leaving for no good reason whatsoever. They’re not being harmed, unless you call lack of excitement harmful. And yes, I think it’s often a whim of sorts. A song like his one perhaps, or some movie, or just some friends (not you guys, obvs) giving really crappy advice. And they act impulsively with absolutely no idea how fast life can get much, much harder. They just throw it all away. I feel grateful that I never went through such a spell. I don’t know if it’s hormonal, emotional, mental or what, but I just keep hearing stories of women leaving marriages and kids.

        • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

          That’s the most bizarre story I’ve ever heard!
          .
          It really is. I understand that it isn’t statistically significant, but it has colored the way my wife and I view the world. While the full blown insanity part is hopefully pretty rare, I don’t think the high speed collision with the reality bus is. I read all the time on the manosphere about women who divorced and traded up. And at any given time of the day you can probably find something like that on Lifetime. But I don’t recall ever seeing it. I’m sure it happened, but we just don’t know enough people to have seen an example.
          .
          And both of these women were successful people. The first was a civil engineer for the state, and the second was a grad student teaching at a major East Coast University and only 6 credits away from a masters degree. On paper their lives were great. But obviously something caused them to self destruct in a massive way.
          .
          The second woman’s bad choices are so comical and continuous that I’ve half jokingly suggested my wife create blog for people to follow along. She does stuff like go to AA meetings even though she doesn’t have a drinking problem (she is trolling for men), gets thrown out of apartments and fired from jobs for the dumbest reasons you can imagine, etc. If there is a choice before her, she will make the wrong one without fail.

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          She does stuff like go to AA meetings even though she doesn’t have a drinking problem (she is trolling for men).

          That is definitely a new low. I fear she might be a candidate to prove Hollenhund’s theory that women find serial killers sexy.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Yes, we can easily envision her spending yet another 2-3 ‘lost’ years while she chases him from commune to commune, from dead end job to ‘temp’ assignments. (If she’s really lucky). If not, she gets ‘pumped & dumped’ by a series of these same ‘dark strangers’ to satisfy her incessant hunger for the ‘danger boy’/excitement/adrenaline fix. Perhaps in yet another scenario she picks up a few kids along the way to whom she may be an ever reluctant and indifferent single mom. Always seemingly ‘down on her luck’, and never suspecting it was the chase of the all commanding but ever elusive ‘tingle’ & that special chemistry (that was really ‘lost youth’) that managed to put her there. In an SRO, with hungry kids, a miserable job, no child care or support to speak of and still wondering ‘where it all went, so fast’.

    I’m sorry if that sounds overly cruel or deterministic or ‘nasty’. I can’t tell you how many pretty young gals ’round here fall into the same trap, again & again. ‘He’ll love me for the baby’, or worse sorts of reasoning. And not to sound too ‘old testament’ here, but for a few moments of fleeting pleasure in their youth, their lives are largely determined for the next 20+ years. It’s largely a youthful conceit to be looking for ‘the tingle’ or always the ‘wonderful chemistry’ of your first love in the Next guy. It’ll be different. Only their use of you might seem the same.

    No it’ll never be the same again. Your youth & vigor will not be returned to you. Your time wasted in & on the alpha CC/harems will not count for much down the years. Just plenty of lost opportunity, that you’ll never see or recognize until it’s far too late, most likely.

    Sighs are not enough. Something stronger is needed perhaps. We don’t know what! Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Right BB, There needed to be some slight tweaking for this case. In any case, no you really did not read well. Read what Susan & other commentaries said and do less trolling. Again, the OP is the one who’s saying these ‘stereotypical/archetypal fantasy land’ things. She considered the drop out dude who joined the commune, ‘Unmarriable’ [sic]. That’s HER comment & description of HIM. Despite that? This is how she’s doing/thinking of the same for pre-med guy, again the quotes are from the OP, as Susan quotes above:

    “He is smart, consistent, predictable, and incredibly faithful. He wants to honor me, provide for me, and marry me. He has been very intentional with my parents and with his desire to love and cherish only me. I love him very much, but we do not have the same “chemistry” that I shared with the first person. We have problems and have to work through them. We disagree on things and have to compromise. There is no “magic” and I feel I could logically live without him if we broke up.
    I just saw the first guy again this week and was reminded again how strong the chemistry is between us. I miss the life, excitement, and passion of the first guy, but obviously he is not the right mate for me. I have a logical love for the second guy, but can I marry him knowing that we do not have a similar connection?”

    So let’s see, not knowing what exactly she wants? Check. Flighty for no damn discernible reason? Here. Wanting that ‘special magic’ she shared with the 1st (different guy, 3 years ago)? All too tragically true, despite being perfectly impossible, now & forever. Complete & utter foolish fantasy? Pretty much SSDD for many of the same age graded, lovely Christian gals, but certainly This one here. We’ve got no idea what she might want or why or when. Neither does she, ‘natch. And That’s the real point here. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hi VJ, letting this comment stand b/c it’s good, even tho BB has been deleted and sent packing.

      • http://ft.com VJ

        Thanks Susan, Re-reding it all again, I’m even sadder all around! Geez. Cheers ‘VJ’

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Apologies to everyone who wasted their time engaging Bad Boy. Thanks to Dalrock’s help, I’ve identified Bad Boy as a troll and deleted all his/her comments. Ugh.

  • verie44

    “There is a difference between ACC and a couple one night stands. A couple one night stands are sips compared to slut guzzle. You had a coupe one night stands baby you’re good in my book. If I knew you did trains with the basketball team in college.Hmmmm… what do you think? As in would you verie?”

    Never done either, would I? No. But I was raised with a more traditional mother than most American girls, and most of my friends didn’t have the influences I did.

    • http://ft.com VJ

      “But I was raised with a more traditional mother than most American girls, and most of my friends didn’t have the influences I did”–Verie44

      Do tell!?

      Cheers, ‘VJ’

      • verie44

        Nothing to tell. That’s about it — my mom brought me up with traditional values, that’s all. Many of my friends didn’t have moms that rode herd on them as much as my mom did.

        • http://ft.com VJ

          There’s always something more to tell. What sort of traditional values? German? Czech? Brit? Mormon? Methodist? Yankee? Midwestern? Southern? There’s an infinite variety possible here. This is why I always ask further, ‘Well What is that? In what context? So just wondering. Cheers, ‘VJ’

        • verie44

          Sorry, but that’s way too specific to reveal online. I apparently already have someone who’s doing searches for my screenname online & trying to find out information about me IRL from my comments on this blog. I’m definitely not giving them anything else like my ethnic/cultural background to go on if they’re reading this. I’d prefer not to be cut into small pieces, thankyouverymuch.

        • http://ft.com VJ

          OK thanks, that’s fine. But again, each culture & region have their own ‘traditional values’ that might seem perhaps strange, unusual, ‘foreign’, or far worse to others. So ‘I was raised in traditional Gymnasium style of the Austro-Hungarian Empire’ etc.

          So I always ask, as I’ve got little idea what someone might mean by this w/o knowing them better. Another sort of ‘Catch 22′. And BTW? Traditional may not always mean ‘less sexually available’. ‘Nuff said. Cheers, ‘VJ’

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  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    Also lets be real here, neither one of these guys has asked her to marry him. Band guy doesn’t even know that she’s that into him and he’s likely dating other people anyway. If Med student hasn’t popped the question after two years, his plan is to dump her after he’s a doctor anyway.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Good point. She’s writing in asking for advice on a matter she considers life and death. This could be extreme solipsism on her part. Also, as you say, we have no evidence that Band Guy has given her 10 minutes thought in the last 2 years. Making any decision based on one-sided chemistry is just dumb.

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