How Guys Really Feel About the Girls They Hook Up With

August 31, 2010

It’s been expressed by numerous women here, most recently by Sara, the writer of the letter in yesterday’s post, that sitting out the casual sex scene in college means getting very little male attention. She said:

Guys I feel no attraction to creepily hitting on me constantly simply trying to sleep with me that night, I don’t think I will meet a truly nice guy at a bar or a party…At this point, I think I will be waiting until after graduation to really meet the guys I even want to date at all. I am fine with it, but it is hard to choose that road when all of your friends are dating and crushing on boys, and it does get lonely. I know that choosing this road I will be stronger in the long run, but I often-times feel left out of the whole thing.

Sara is not alone; her feelings are typical of many young women in college who want a relationship, not a random hookup. It’s not surprising that many frustrated young women wind up dropping panties while drunk, hoping for the best, just to be included, part of the scene, having a normal college experience.

What many women fail to realize is that being “chosen” by a guy for the purpose of hooking up says little about her worth, or her attractiveness relative to her peers, even in his eyes. Men’s standards for hooking up are extremely low, as they will readily admit.

Consider the following question I came across on a guy’s poker forum two days ago. The writer is apparently a college hockey player. It’s not pretty, but it’s an interesting peek behind closed doors.

Here’s how guys really feel about the girls they hook up with:

From: BigEarn

HOW BAD IS THIS, HOOKUP WISE?

So I have always prided myself on having standards. I haven’t had a gf in years but I like to think that I consistently hook up with 7s or so on a pretty regular basis.

Anyways, lately I have been hooking up with this girl whose probably like a 5.5-6 but we only hookup when I am completely hammered and if nothing else pans out for me during the night. Is this ok? Should I stop this? I wouldn’t want people to see me out with this girl, shes tall,skinny, decent body but her face is kind of a disaster. She has summer-teeth… Some go this way, some go that way. (Pauly D – Jersey Shore reference). Her performance in bed is definitely solid but I think I need to just delete her number.

I’m looking for some thoughts on the situation here.

Ouch. The responses:

1. do we even have to say?

2. seriously wtf is your problem. pics or stfu/gtfo etc

3.






4. standards are for high schoolers

5. Beauty is a lightswitch away

6. If you arent trying to marry the girl and she knows that then who gives a fuck?

7. Plan B:






8. ewwww a 5.5-6?? if she was 6-6.5 I’d say mayyyyybe, but anything below a 6.75-8.2384 I say gtfo you ugly whorebitch.

9. keep on banging, justify it as << giving back to humanity>>

10. If you both understand this is drunken weekend happy time and you’re not involved….And you think it’s better than rubbing one out….And she thinks it’s better than rubbing one out….Then who fucking cares?

11. If she’s a 5 then I bet 90% of us would hit it

BigEarn responds:

Eh, I clearly said this one wasn’t hot and I bang 7s or so, not claiming to be tagging supermodels here. I make these posts because i’m sure most of you have been in similar situations and I like to hear what others have to say. I guess I just enjoy giving advice/responding to posts like this because quite frankly I find women and dealing with them very interesting.

I’m not insecure but I do get some self-satisfaction out of trying to work new girls, but then again who doesn’t? As I’ve posted in the past (years ago) my one real relationship was a complete disaster and I ended up heartbroken and after that hurt finally went away I guess i’m just a lot wiser and somewhat jaded when it comes to females.

If you didn’t already know, now you do. Clear eyes, full hearts, can’t lose.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Ouch, that hurts.

    My daughter goes to college next year.

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    LOL #5 lightswitch. That’s funny right there.

    I’m sorry, I’m not helping am I. Bad man, bad bad man.

    However I’m not sure it matters whether the homely woman puts out or not, they despise her anyway because she has low Sex Rank.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Athol Kay
      So does that mean a woman with low sex rank might as well put out? What is she to do?

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    I think it’s two separate sorts of male disgust at work here. The first is at lack of physical beauty. The second is at being a slut.

    If she “puts out”, she just gets a double dose of digust.

    If she’s a 5 the solution is to find a male 5 that she gets on well with and live happily ever after and raise a whole mess of little 5’s together.

    If she turns into a slut she just turns into a 4 or a 3 depending on how much she allows herself to be used up. Then when she’s hitting the wall at 35 she’s trying to find a 4 or a 3 to settle with.

    Unless of course she can entrap something higher than a 5 early on with a pregnancy or something. But then most hot guys are wise to that anyway. And yes I said and meant “entrap”.

    Anyway, it’s only the peanut gallery that’s really screaming about how ugly a 5 is. Isn’t that a pretty much average looking woman without make up yada yada yada? I mean some of these idiots rate “omg I came in my pants hot” movie stars like 8’s. Put down the porn guys, go outside… meet an actual woman.

    Maximise beauty and don’t give it away. It’s not really that hard of a strategy is it?

  • jess

    what a repulsive individual the guy in the article is
    is it ethical for me to pray for early onset male pattern baldness for him?
    hell, why not throw a bout of impotence in for good measure
    just to take him down a peg
    i count myslef lucky i have avoided jerks like this on the whole.

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    Actually if you really want to give girls greater leverage in the dating marketplace, tell them to work on getting hotter looking. A 5 that works her tummy off and dresses better yada yada yada and become a 7 is going to have a much better time of things.

  • Average Joe

    One of the main reasons I’m not a sex possie, is their validation of ANY reason for having sex. Men basically have four reasons we do it… three of them good and one bad.” Can’t find anyone else tonight” is the bad one.

    BigEarn is a type 1 player (You can tell from the nickname), but is becoming uncomfortable with his behavior. That’s a good thing. Hopefully he can soon turn the corner and start his journey towards becoming a type 4 player.

    Drawing the line at desperate/compulsive “I wouldn’t want people to see me out with this girl” sex. is the first step. The next is never having sex with someone with whom he doesn’t intend to revisit. (It keeps her LTR value up, and his cost down). It is also obvious that BigEarn has not mastered sexual inertia yet. If he is scoring 7’s regularly, he should be asking why he is so often without options, save his tall, skinny safety net.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Athol
    Seriously laughing my ass off at the idea of raising a passel of little 5s. Awwww.
    I’m totally with you on the ridiculous standards dudes online are holding. I’ve seen threads where guys say they wouldn’t even consider having sex with Megan Fox. Yeah, right. Same guys would probably do cartwheels for Barbara Streisand (ew).

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Jess
    Baldness, impotence, I’m all for it. Let’s throw in some nasty genital rashes for good measure. Truth is, this guy is not unusual – nor are the commenters. This is standard. Women need to realize how they’re discussed the morning after. The 5 referred to here probably thinks she’s about to get a commitment – after all, they’ve hooked up a few weekends in a row, and there doesn’t seem to be another girl on the scene…

  • Athlone McGinnis

    Hello everyone. I’m in the early stages of football preseason right now. 8 practices done, just 20 more to go. It kind of sucks(my life is eat, football, eat, football, eat, football, then sleep, in that order, then repeat the next day), but being back in the locker room has given me some serious insight into this particular topic: male views on casual hookups vs. committed partners.

    Guys like to tell stories in their locker rooms. Often times, these stories involve girls they’ve recently hooked up with. Since we’re all overly horny 18-22 year old men, naturally we get very intrigued by these tales of bedroom conquest. At times, though, the girls are just objects of ridicule and disgust.
    A recent story I heard was about another female athlete on campus and the hookups she had with one of my teammates. Apparently, she was “a squirter” and a few of my other teammates walked through the room accidentally while they were doing the business. Their derision was obvious. They called her nasty, disgusting, and wondered why my teammate even bothered(she’s pretty much a solid 5.5 or 6). There was no respect. I am somewhat acquainted with this girl, and she seems to be a pretty decent person overall. I wonder what she would think if she knew even half of the things that were said about her. it’s kind of sad, really.

    Another story involved a senior frat brother on my team and an older girl on campus who I don’t know. He talked about how he hooked up with her(the way he described her was nothing more than how one would describe some sort of sex toy, just a tool really). He went on and on about it, saying “yeah , i met her, we hooked up a few times, I called her and she was available so whatever” etc, etc. Then he described how desperate she was to get him “hard” one time, so much so that she said “what can I do?” He asked for a rimjob and got it.

    This story regarding this girl, btw, was told to the ENTIRE FOOTBALL TEAM ASSEMBLED IN THE MEETING ROOM. All 120 or so males on the team heard every detail. He tried to withhold the name, but I guarantee that’s been released by now to(other people saw him with her some nights and they’ll tell when probed). Everyone in the room broke out in hysterical laughter. When that girl’s name finally finishes making the rounds, she will be blacklisted as nothing more than a last resort beer-goggle piece of tail. That’s the truth, sad as it is, because everytime guys see her they will remember that story.

    That’s just the tip of the iceberg, btw, as every weekend brings at least one new good story. Honestly, these stories give me some new found respect for the girls who avoid hooking up. They don’t want to be humiliated and called names behind their backs, and I can sort of understand that.

    Now, compare this to my knowledge regarding girls who are officially involved romantically (read: dating) some of my teammates.
    I can’t tell you anything about them. I have no idea if they are/were “squirters”. I don’t know how adventurous they are in bed. None of those details are available as general, easily attainable gossip. Why?
    The guys respect these girls more because of increased emotional investment. They would NEVER sit at a lunch table and gossip about what their girlfriend did with them in bed last night after the party, or talk openly about her flaws/imperfections or anything like that. They would certainly NEVER openly announce their girlfriend’s most intimate experiences to an assembled group of 100+ horny male teenagers.

    Judging from what I see from my teammates, only their closest friends(4 or 5 members of their “clique” who talk regularly and often) will know anything, and those guys won’t spread it around much either. Why? They respect that guy and they respect that girl by extension. Unless she does something completely out of left field(like randomly cheat on him with like 4 or 5 guys one night and embarrass him socially), they will always uphold that respect, even after the relationship ends. If you try and get this type of information out of a guy regarding his girlfriend, he’ll get mad at you and you will lose social cred amongst him and his friends.

    It won’t matter what she looks like either. If she’s a 5, guys might say “yeah, she is kind of average looking” behind her boyfriends back, but they won’t blatantly insult her and call her “disgusting” or “mannish” unless she already has a prior history and there are well known “stories” already available about her.

    Girls should understand clearly that this derision of “sluthood” amongst guys is real and alive. They might enjoy screwing girls who quickly hook up with them and they will do so often just to get their jollies off. But when a girl enters into that agreement, she opens herself up to public ridicule amongst many of her hookup’s friends, and that information will spread quickly. Your intimate details(how your naked body looks, how you perform in bed, weird habits you have, grooming details, etc, etc) will be made public, and many guys you don’t even know or like will be fully aware of them. Guys you like and may want to date later will know to, and if they find out you gave their buddy a hasty rimjob it WILL color their perception of you. When you decide to operate outside of the confines of a relationship, you forfeit many of the more stabilizing qualities they provide. People who have no emotional investment in you beyond getting their rocks off won’t care about your feelings, your right to privacy, your social standing and your sensitivity. You will be a piece of ass, good only for hanging out with in frat basements and only worth paying attention to when the party is over and he is horny.

    If you’re ok with that, then go ahead and keep hooking up. Just be ready for the fallout. Don’t complain about it later.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Athlone
      Wow, your comment is actually a huge gift. You’ve singlehandedly given us a real-time look inside the locker room of an Ivy football team. I’m tempted to make it a post so that no reader misses it. I especially appreciate your taking the time to share it with us when I know you are incredibly busy with football.
      To be honest, your description goes beyond anything I would have expected, which just makes it all the more important. Women need to know what’s up.

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    Streetwalkers don’t even do rimjobs. Holy crap. Change colleges and start over. Seriously. OMG.

  • Athlone McGinnis

    @Athol: yeah, and this is at an Ivy where girls are relatively more reserved and the partying is much more restrained. Imagine what its like and your average state school.

    Stories like that wouldn’t even register at Florida or Alabama, or even Albany State(NY). Its child’s play.

  • Mike

    So does that mean a woman with low sex rank might as well put out? What is she to do?

    Go for a low sex rank guy as a partner?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So does that mean a woman with low sex rank might as well put out? What is she to do?

      Go for a low sex rank guy as a partner?

      This is where the Sexual Revolution really shifted female behavior. The woman discussed by BigEarn has learned (or so she believes) that she can succeed in bedding a college hockey player who has a history of hooking up with attractive women. She eagerly joins the ranks of these women, having no idea that he is grossed out by her teeth and on the brink of deleting her number – without any intention to communicate the end of whatever it is they are doing. When he does do this, she will not learn that he found her unattractive. She will hook up next with a teammate of his, perhaps, and will feel special once again that she has attracted a high status varsity athlete. The teammate will also find her unattractive, but he knows he won’t catch too much shit for hooking up with her, since his buddy has already stooped this low. And so she drifts further and further away from reality. This is how female hypergamy is hurting women, but they have no idea. I can guarantee this girl would be stunned and devastated to learn how she is really viewed.

  • Sasha

    @Athlone McGinnis: Your story doesn’t shock me in the slightest. Since trying to “reform” myself from the hook-up scene i’ve ended up at many parties with my guy acquaintances / male friends and the stories they have shared with me have blown my mind with disgust. I call it “boys club” as when the boys get together they are just that “the boys”. Of course though they don’t disrespect their significant others who they are officially dating but to all the girls they have hooked up with and had sexual relations with outside of this they are just plain ruthless.
    One party in particular I was with a few of these guys and a girl came up to talk to one of them expressing that she enjoyed the other night and was like eluding that they should meet up later tonight. He was very lovely to her face you know saying all the right things, introduced us all to her, had her arm around her etc (I was even under the impression that they were boyfriend and girlfriend) – although as soon as she left he started with the all the charming disrespectful facts about her. I mean I just listen to them talk I have never given my opinion that I think they are acting like pigs – I don’t like using the term but it’s like they are suffering from the whole Madonna Whore syndrome. Because then they start talking about the girl they do in fact like that they see as out of their reach (I’m assuming because she won’t jump into bed with them straight off the bat) as though she is on a pedestal and asking me for advice.
    In saying all this I know personally with my group of girlfriends we can be rather ruthless and share intimate details about guys we’ve hooked up with in rather derogatory ways too. As a way of shaming them. I know for a while in my last years flat we had a wall of shame for all the boys that left the flat on Friday and Sunday mornings.
    I’m not proud of this but I think it goes to show that females can be just as nasty as males when it comes to showing disrespect for “slutty” behaviour. But also similar when it comes to committed relationships – as we all become very tight lipped with the intimate details when we are dating a guy seriously or official with him.

  • Mike

    Truth is, this guy is not unusual – nor are the commenters. This is standard. Women need to realize how they’re discussed the morning after.

    Oh yes. I often think most women who are “conquests” of “player” types must be absolutely clueless about how they get discussed with “his boyz” later. I think most would be horrified. The stuff above is pretty tame actually compared to stuff I heard back when I was bouncing, and from the “player” I work with.

  • Mike

    Then he described how desperate she was to get him “hard” one time, so much so that she said “what can I do?” He asked for a rimjob and got it.

    There is a subset of the Player 3 category, maybe another category onto itself, and again I’m familiar with this due to my time bouncing and associating with those guys. There are guys that enjoy/get off on the power trip of seeing just how far they take a girl in terms of sexual degradation. I could tell you some just crazy stuff, I mean just f’en crazy. Combine super-alpha with no morals whatsoever, and a low self-esteem girl wanting to please and the result isn’t pretty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Combine super-alpha with no morals whatsoever, and a low self-esteem girl wanting to please and the result isn’t pretty.

      I’ve known women who were taken in by guys like this, and they didn’t even have low self-esteem, as far as I could tell. Winding up in the crosshairs of such a guy is terrible luck – it’s almost like having a hurricane sweep through your life. Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt, even emotionally damaged by him. I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man – with his skill, and absence of conscience or empathy, he will play a woman hard before she even knows what hit her.

  • Mike

    Girls should understand clearly that this derision of “sluthood” amongst guys is real and alive.

    We just need reeducation camps for all men to learn the proper respect for ALL women including those who allow themselves to be used like tissue paper for jacking off.

    Here is my idea. At age 12-13, all men will be forcibly removed from their households, and sent to SPF sex reeducation camps led by Amanda Marcotte. There they will take female hormones to reduce the effects of rising testosterone, and will attend day long classes to understand female “empowerment”. They will not be allowed to rejoin society or their family until they have proven their complete devotion to this ideal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike
      Haha, I was actually thinking of Marcotte when writing this post. Her denial that hookup culture exists, her refusal to acknowledge what sluthood does to women, her belief that the sexual double standard should be eradicated via indoctrination all had me shaking my head. I didn’t want to make the post about her or feminism in any way, but I’m glad you made this point. It’s very relevant.

  • JRF

    The comments are pretty benign. Sure, they are phrased in rough guy humor, but most of them boils down to “if you’re both ok with it, go ahead”, with the implication that if he’s driving the girls to tears he should back off. The other responses are clearly intended for chuckles, rather than serious advice.

    I don’t really see a problem with anything the guy who asked the question did either. He’s treated her like crap, won’t be seen in public with her and only contacts her for sex when he’s drunk. Without outright stating that she’s too ugly for a relationship that’s about as clear as he can be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JRF
      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. Lest you mistake my intent in writing this post, let me make it clear that I don’t really have a problem with BigEarn or any of the commenters. I too thought the comments were funny – I especially loved the pic of the guy pushing a woman down the stairs. The message here is that women need to understand that when they’re hooking up with a guy for kicks, they can’t expect respect, and won’t get it. This is how guys talk among themselves, and women need to understand it. Because I can guarantee you that the woman who is the subject of this thread would not find these comments benign, especially the original question from BigEarn.
      Do I feel sorry for her? Well, she’s made choices and she’s about to learn the consequences of them. I feel empathy for any girl who learns this lesson the first time. If, however, she keeps on doing the same thing, or has done this before, then it’s caveat emptor.

  • Sasha

    @Athlone McGinnis: I agree completely with you. I have a few good guy mates who have talked to me and my set of girlfriends about their sexual conquests in ways that make me cringe.. Not just because of the derogatory ways in which they are talking about these women they have hooked-up with but just the thought that I have most likely been discussed in this exact way to someone else too.
    However I’m going to add a point that I think girls can be just as ruthless with the way we disrespect guys we’ve hooked-up with casually too. My set of flat mates in particular last year (flat of 5 girls and 1 boy) had a wall of shame for a few months of photographs of all the conquests that left the house over that period. I’m not proud about admitting this. I didn’t personally have any myself on the wall – I was usually the photographer!
    And I will agree for both sexes though that when committed, mutually respectful relationships are involved the talk for dirty, intimate secrets are slim to none. No of my girlfriends or guy mates talk about their girlfriends or boyfriends sexual prowess or sexual preferences. Maybe to close close friends but even then no one shares.
    I guess it just shows how little respect is shown in amongst the hooking-up scene – for girls and guys.

  • Snowdrop111

    I have a really dumb question, but one I’ve always wondered about.

    What’s to prevent someone from falsely claiming they got with so-and-so, and so-and-so was nasty, degraded, and did, X, Y, and Z, and a rimjob etc.? When in reality so-and-so is fat, pockmarked, knows it, and stays in the library?

    When I was in college there was a cute girl on a sports team who was deaf and had a speech impediment. That’s all it took. A group of other girls would call guys on the phone and pretend to be her, asking guys out with a fake speech impediment that sounded like the deaf girl. There was no obnoxious behavior that the deaf girl did that made it a revenge thing or anything. These girls just liked posing as that deaf girl calling guys and asking them out on the phone.

    Sometimes even in college, groups take out against someone who hasn’t done anything and all that person has done is not be beautiful or not speak perfectly. It’s up to the listeners to figure it out. But do the listeners call bullshit or believe everything that’s said even when stories are made up?

    What’s to prevent a group of 100 athletes from beliving Sally Mouseburger in the library gave an athlete a rimjob etc.?

    Unless there is a guy or guys in the group who will stand up and say No way and ostracize the liar.

    Is there anything in the “Code” that says you don’t tell that kind of story when it didn’t really happen?

    Sorry so paranoid. I guess the deal is if you are beautiful enough you don’t have to worry, stories will not stick. But does it do any good to not hook up, if stories can be told that you did anyway…and believed?

    Sorry so dumb.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Snowdrop, @Anni
      That’s a really good question, not a dumb one. Certainly online there’s a lot of posturing and fake story-telling that goes on. Some of the “field reports” I’ve read strain credulity based on the looks of the guy writing, in cases where his pic was available. But you raise a good question about locker room talk – there must be some exaggerating that goes on – it’s endemic to storytelling. Indeed, in yesterday’s post, Sara was upset that Joe had told everyone she’d given him a BJ when it wasn’t true. I’d be interested to hear what the guys think of this – what % to discount these stories?

  • Anni

    I agree that the guy in the post is disgusting, and so is any guy who talks derisively of his conquests. And I realize that guys do this and girls need to know it. However, regarding the rim job and others saying they’ve heard crazy things… Could it be that the guys telling these stories are exaggerating just a little bit?

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    I would rather go live alone in a mud hut in South America and have to catch my own fish and forage for my own berries braving the many and varied dangers of the rainforest than have a team of football players critique my naked body and my performance in bed amongst themselves. No hyperbole.

    As far as closed-mouthed behavior goes, I think people in relationships are generally given their privacy – until the relationship is over. If it ends badly or you’ve been paired with someone immature or vindictive, all bets are off. The heart of the matter is you have to be careful in selecting the people with whom you will be the most vulnerable and open.

    In contrast to the above, I had a young man (mid-twenties, attractive, squeaky clean looking) offer me his seat at a parents’ meeting I showed up late to last night. I don’t know if it’s related, but I had a full-length dress on and my hair was put up. I declined, by the way. He’d gotten there on time and was entitled to his chair.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @grerp

      I had a young man (mid-twenties, attractive, squeaky clean looking) offer me his seat at a parents’ meeting I showed up late to last night. I don’t know if it’s related, but I had a full-length dress on and my hair was put up.

      I don’t know if it’s related either, but I bet a lot of the guys would say it is. If you’d shown up looking like a Cougar he probably wouldn’t have afforded you the same respect.

  • Esau

    Jess: what a repulsive individual the guy in the article is … i count myslef lucky i have avoided jerks like this on the whole.

    .

    Good for you; but, is it luck or skill? or just plain common sense? Is it really that difficult to avoid such absolute assholes among men? Apparently it is:

    .

    Susan: Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt,

    .

    This doesn’t speak very well of women on the whole, if you ask me. The “argument from helplessness” pushes all the blame and all the responsibility onto the “super-villain” cad, while poor Nell is utterly powerless before his hypnotic gaze. Really, do you want to make the claim that women have no input at all in these cases? Also, does this make sense numerically? How many “super-villain” cads do there have to be in the world for the typical woman to have to worry about encountering one? Do you really think that even 5% of men have these super-villain powers?

    .

    I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man

    .

    Since I’m here to help, here’s a start: prioritize honesty and decency over charm, popularity and social proof. When I say “prioritize” I mean exactly that, put first things first. Don’t say that honesty would be nice but only if charm is already present; take honesty without charm first over the reverse. Sound difficult? Perhaps, but if you admit that you’re not willing to give up cocaine for vegetables then at least you know where you stand.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Since I’m here to help, here’s a start: prioritize honesty and decency over charm, popularity and social proof.

      Fair enough, but the whole point is that a small percentage of men – probably less than 5%, actually, are so good at playing the part of an honest, decent, caring and empathic individual that they successfully hide their true character long enough that a woman has thoroughly been conned into falling for them. I can write post after post about red flags, and most men will give clues to poor character, or at least their unwillingness to commit. But there are some who will play the part of being everything a woman wants, only to dispose of her once he’s made the conquest. That’s why I said it’s terrible luck to be targeted by one of these guys – there’s very little one can do to defend oneself. These men would fit the extreme Player III profile – sociopathic.

  • Ellen

    Susan — I think this post, and the comments, demonstrate really well why even though it’s true that most women can find SOMEONE to have sex with (unlike some percentage of men out there) it’s really not the great thing many guys seem to imagine it would be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ellen, welcome! Thanks for joining the discussion. That’s a really good point – the value of the sex to the subject of this post is low to begin with, seeing as how it’s devoid of emotional connection, and she doesn’t even know how she’s being discussed. If she did, I’m sure she would be horrified and stop. She can only be as happy as her delusions will allow, and once they’re gone, she’ll crash.

  • Kenny Powers

    @Sasha It’s not a Madonna/Whore Complex… That implies that women are viewed as sexual OR relationship worthy… Essentially one or the other.
    .
    In reality, the classifications are 1) Good enough for sex. And 2) Good enough for sex AND a committed relationship.
    .
    I think a lot of girls assume that they’re in group 2 when they’re really in group 1.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kenny Powers

      I think a lot of girls assume that they’re in group 2 when they’re really in group 1.

      That right there explains about 80% of the misery arising from casual sex. Many women don’t even know they’re acting against their best interests. Ignorance is bliss, until they realize they never get the commitment.

  • Average Joe

    Athlone,

    Thanks for sharing the story. As I also confirmed at a recent wedding, little has changed about the hookup culture. Too bad. I do urge you to be more than a journalist about the situation though i.e. do something. There are those that film people holding up help signs and then there are those that help people holding up help signs. Hopefully you are the latter. I don’t know where you are in the pecking order of your team/frat, but it’s important that you try to modify the kiss and tell dynamic of your club. It will save lots of women from heartache.

    Obviously you are in masculine, competitive atmosphere so you need to be careful about how you get your point across. Nevertheless your “boys” need to understand that “fighting outside of your weight class” so to speak, is a definite no no. Loudly give them -2 points for every “lowball” infraction and soon the behavior will decrease. When you start hearing “-2″ regularly screamed across the room at parties, then you know you’ve been successful. And besides isn’t it a lot more fun to get a “dime” to secretly toss your salad, than brag about some “nickel” you turned out.
    .
    .
    @Sasha

    I don’t know what country you are from, but in the U.S. men aren’t belittled for having sex, they are belittled for not having sex… and little dicks. A wall of male “shame” would get you laughed at and ridiculed for being a skank over here. What you call “conquest” we call “putting out”.

  • Average Joe

    @ Grerp

    Lady,
    You need to be cloned!!!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ Grerp

      Lady,
      You need to be cloned!!!

      Jealous.

  • Average Joe

    @Mike
    Here is my idea. At age 12-13, all men will be forcibly removed from their households, and sent to SPF sex reeducation camps led by Amanda Marcotte.

    Funny, funny stuff. You do realize though that from henceforth she will call you a “choad” and “wingnut” for such blasphemy???

  • Aldonza

    A friend of mine has a little brother. Little brother is a campus alpha, football star, tall, good-looking, friendly and outgoing. See, little brother is the real deal: a good kid. Courteous, hard-working, generous, loves his family. He’s not used to women throwing themselves at him sexually mostly because he grew up in a very Catholic town. But he’s certainly not upset about the change in circumstances in college.
    .
    Little brother shares some of his exploits with older brother.
    .
    “Yeah, I’m pumped. Met this hot blond at [Irish bar] and she blew me in the bathroom.”
    “Glad you’re having fun. Gonna see her again?”
    “Maybe. But I’m not taking this one home to meet mom.”
    .
    In an instant, that girl took herself out of LTR territory. She would *never* be the one brought to the family cookouts and introduced to grandma. She would forever be, to him anyway, “that blond who blew me in that bar.” Further, all his buddies who were with him know it too.
    .
    Little brother has also been courting another girl. Yes, I said courting. This is the one who he takes to Red Sox games and asks his brother for advice on which restaurants to take her to. I’m willing to bet this one has not blown him in a bar bathroom. But it’s telling to me that big brother doesn’t know if she has or she hasn’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Aldonza
      If Little Brother goes back on the market, I’d like to nominate a couple of young women to be next in line for courtship. Wow, you don’t hear much about courting anymore.

  • dragnet

    “I’d be interested to hear what the guys think of this – what % to discount these stories?”

    It’s a good question. The truth is that even alphas exaggerate a little. I think it depends on the guy. Most guys know not to exaggerate too much, or they let on when they are. But I think in general most of what you hear is real. Most of it. These days, alphas can just tell it like it is, and it’s often just incredible. You’d be surprised at the things (young) women are willing to do for men they’re attracted to…

    And I’ve definitely heard girls talk shit about the guys they hook-up with, but I think the difference is that guys don’t care as much—unless he’s impotent or something. But most of the bashing I hear from girls is that their guy wasn’t a good lover and they didn’t orgasm—but when you’re just hooking up with a girl you don’t care about most guys don’t give a damn whether or not she came.

    But really, I think guys need to think twice about telling these kinds of stories. It’s one thing to spout off on the Internet, but it’s another to tell it to an entire locker room. That’s amateurish. It’s my experience that you get more play if you are tight-lipped. My uncles were old-school player types and coming up one of the first rules I learned was not to kiss-and-tell. That’s a key lesson of harem management. I managed to have a fair amount of sex the first year of college (before settling down in a 3.5-yr relationship) and part of the reason is because I was lowkey about it. I’m sure I could’ve been labeled a “manwhore”…but hardly anyone knew. I was lucky because I learned from other men coming up, but I think a lot guys don’t have that so they just go with their (worst) instincts: burnishing their manhood with stories of their escapades. Not the best strategy if you want to keep the poon train running on time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet

      This fits perfectly with a recent post by Vincent Ignatius:
      http://vincentignatius.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/on-the-down-low/

      He actually talks about both the ethics and strategic benefit of helping girls preserve their reputations, even while they’re having casual sex.

      I think it’s true that most players don’t care whether a woman comes or not, unless she has the network to talk about him as being bad in bed, which can affect his future prospects. Most hookup sex is bad for all parties in college, as it relies so heavily on alcohol, but I have heard tales of guys who went to great lengths to get their partners off as a matter of personal pride, and investment in their reputation as a skilled lover.

  • Average Joe

    @Aldonza.

    Two words. Monica Lewinsky.
    She eventually had to move out of America.

  • Aldonza

    Two words. Monica Lewinsky.
    She eventually had to move out of America.

    That’s what she gets for not swallowing like a good little Democrat.

  • Chili

    “But there are some who will play the part of being everything a woman wants, only to dispose of her once he’s made the conquest.That’s why I said it’s terrible luck to be targeted by one of these guys – there’s very little one can do to defend oneself.”

    Many of the male commenters on this site talk about how even if a girl hasn’t said anything about how many men she’s slept with, there are signs that make it clear she’s been promiscuous. In the same way, there are signs that point to douchebag manwhore behavior. It’s all about whether a woman is willing to see them. Ladies, trust your instincts: if you have doubts about a guy for any reason, don’t rationalize them away, just dump him. Even if there are no doubts, sometimes a simple background check is in order just in case. College is not an isolated environment. People know each other. Ask around. Even the most discreet of players leaves a trail. If no one seems to know who he is, that’s probably a good sign.

  • Ellen

    Oh, I’ve commented before, just, uh, not memorably. :)

    It occurs to me that the sp feminists who love you so much, Susan, and the guy commenters here and elsewhere who firmly believe that, since guys would (apparently) be happy knowing that someone out there would be willing to have casual sex with them means that women, by definition, have it better, sort of make the same argument:

    Guys value and aren’t (apparently) damaged by casual sex.
    Most women could have all the casual sex they want, assuming they aren’t picky.
    Men and women are the same, ergo, women are happy and casual sex is wonderful!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ellen
      So you have. Forgive me. There was a time when I knew everyone’s name and comment history by heart – I guess I should probably admit it’s beyond me now. I still really welcome your input, and hope you’ll keep commenting.
      .
      It’s interesting that you mention the sp feminists – there’s a certain irony in their insisting that women aren’t built to want emotion with sex, even though they’re living it. I find that men mostly do understand that women generally want relationships, which is why players have gotten so good at avoiding them, disappearing when the question is bound to arise.

  • dragnet

    “That’s what she gets for not swallowing like a good little Democrat.”

    I’d to like to take this time to personally confirm that rock-ribbed Republican women swallow as well.

  • Athlone McGinnis

    @Average Joe: To answer your question, no, I don’t have enough influence to do any of that. My teammates wouldn’t listen to me.

    But let me specifically address this statement here: “It will save lots of women from heartache.”

    Why should I care about their heartache? I’m not their father. I’m not here to protect them and their feelings. Girls don’t HAVE to degrade themselves like the girl in that story did. They don’t have to give everything to guys who have absolutely nothing good to say about them at all. They CHOOSE to. They are grown women and that is the decision they made.

    I’ve tried hooking up and my awkward failure let me know it wasn’t for me. I like to court girls. I prefer to date them traditionally, I like to treat them like people, and if they have a father/older relative around I’ll probably ask for their permission to do the courting. That’s how I’ve approached dating so far in my life, and I’ve learned through MANY approaches and failures that this is not the approach girls today respond to.

    I know with near complete certainty that had I approached the girl in the rimjob story respectfully I would have gotten shot down(or she would have run off to go down on the guy soon after I dropped her off from our date). Most young girls today don’t seem to want respect, and when they get it they don’t know what to do with it. Sometimes they’ll just respond by being disrespectful to you. I’ve had girls I’ve tried to date flat out say that they have no idea how to respond to me because I try to be decent to them, and they’ve “never dated a guy who is so nice”. They don’t understand why I want to take them on real dates and actually listen to what they have to say. They get perplexed, confused and in most cases turned off, and very soon after I’ll hear another story involving them and a hookup with some guy who could care less about them as human beings but is content to just get his rocks off.

    They didn’t want me, but they went spread eagle for him. That’s their decision, and while I was frustrated and somewhat saddened(especially when I was younger), I’ve come to accept it. I’m not going to cushion their falls or be “the nice guy” who chastises the dudes they sleep with. I refuse to be the white knight in shining armor.

    Now, I won’t change my behavior. I will never be Roissy or Roosh, the type of player with the ability to completely disconnect myself emotionally from girls I hook up with and treat them like sex dolls. I will never be quite as cynical as Roissy, nor will I ever vengefully turn to asshole game to either “get back” at girls or to just get my rocks off by “giving them what they ask for”, etc, etc. That’s not in my nature, and I accept that this choice will mean less sexual gratification for me.
    My response so far has simply been more towards the leave-it-alone variety, whereby I just don’t bother talking to them or trying to date them. It’s safer for me to just ignore girls I like(and most of the others to) than to actually try and court them. I avoid embarrassment and still get to be myself and they avoid confusion and don’t have to waste time rejecting me later. Everyone wins(sort of).

    But I’m not even going to blame other guys for taking different paths. If girls want respect, they must demand it.If trying to commit and be respectful continues to get guys rejected, then most will start avoiding it. If being a pricks and offering zero emotional investment continues to get guys laid, then they’ll continue to do it. They won’t stop until girls suddenly shut those types of guys off from sexual gratification and start DEMANDING to be treated differently. When men know that investing emotionally in a girl and courting her with at least some future promise of commitment is the ONLY way to gain sexual access, they’ll start treating girls with more respect(look back into history prior to the sexual revolution and you’ll find copious evidence for this).

    Incentives drive behavior. Young men today have little incentive to commit and to respect the privacy of their female hookups, so they don’t do it. Until women create these incentives, things will remain the same. If they don’t do anything then there’s nothing I can do to change things, and I won’t waste my time trying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Athlone

      They won’t stop until girls suddenly shut those types of guys off from sexual gratification and start DEMANDING to be treated differently. When men know that investing emotionally in a girl and courting her with at least some future promise of commitment is the ONLY way to gain sexual access, they’ll start treating girls with more respect(look back into history prior to the sexual revolution and you’ll find copious evidence for this).

      Incentives drive behavior. Young men today have little incentive to commit and to respect the privacy of their female hookups, so they don’t do it.

      Exactly right. We can act horrified by players, but they’re getting considerable positive reinforcement from the women they play.

  • dragnet

    “I’m not going to cushion their falls or be “the nice guy” who chastises the dudes they sleep with. I refuse to be the white knight in shining armor.”

    A very good point. So much of what you hear from women—and other guys, unfortunately—on topics like these amounts to having good, decent, likely beta guys assume some responsibility for cleaning up the fallout that emanates from the poor decisionmaking of the women around them. In many ways, this dynamic is an appropriate metaphor for our society.

    In my opinion, Athlone, the mentality you adopt here is important—probably even more than learning how to Game women. This is the first step toward establishing your value as man independent of the women around you and avoids the pitfalls that some guys (well, a few) fall into when learning Game: that increased success with women leads to an increased need of the validation that they can bring. Adopting this mentality without becoming bitter or angry at women is a really something to be proud of and will serve you well.

  • jess

    “If you’d shown up looking like a Cougar he probably wouldn’t have afforded you the same respect.”
    .
    but if you came dressed as an orangutang you would have had an offer of marriage

  • Hope

    I can speak from experience that being in a committed relationships with guys who love you is very much protective against rumors and degredations of this kind. I’ve done some rather outlandish things in relationships, but the guys all still respected me because they knew that I’m “not that kind of girl” — that is, I wouldn’t do anything without love. It took them a long time of courtship before they even got to touch or kiss me.

    Also, I behaved in a way that was entirely rumor-mill proof. I never smoked or drank, never partied, never went to bars or clubs, and never had a big social circle. I didn’t wear makeup, didn’t go out shopping or keep up with fashions, and never had tattoos or piercings. I was quiet, introverted, and I stayed out of the limelight. No strange man would look at me and suspect that I was even able to think about sex. Maybe this is the “madonna” image, but it was entirely my own personality to begin with, and people can tell it’s not fake.

    One thing I must disagree with an above poster on; guys are also damaged by casual sex, even though such behavior is practically “lauded” by society. Athlone is making the right choice by not engaging in this kind of debauchery. Too much casual sex damages a man’s ability to really pair bond emotionally with a woman, just the same as it damages a woman’s ability to pair bond with a man.

    Bedding so many random people demeans the physical act of making love in an intimate relationship, basically cheapening it to not much more than “just another penis or vagina.” I strongly believe that it’s best for men and women to save the act of sex for when love and genuine connection and commitment exist. Notice I didn’t say only marriage, because my grandparents who are in their 80s had an arranged marriage, and my grandfather cheated on my grandmother many times because there was simply no real love.

  • J

    Two words. Monica Lewinsky. She eventually had to move out of America.

    So sad. An attention hungry 21 year old from a broken home gets taken advantage of by the most powerful man in the Western World, and those few minutes of her life ruin the rest of it. Yeah, she was stupid, but stupid in a way that most girls get to forget about.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    I agree with Athlone. If and when the demand for assholes eases, you will see fewer assholes. Address the demand. He should not have to protect women he doesn’t know from the consequences of their own behavior. That’s paternalism, and women everywhere have shaken off and excoriated patriarchy. With feeling.

    I had to look up what a rimjob was and am now unhappy to have been enlightened.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I had to look up what a rimjob was and am now unhappy to have been enlightened.

      Ditto. I am actually surprised this is high on a guy’s list. And incredulous that it’s in a college girl’s repertoire. I can’t imagine a more degrading request, though perhaps I lack imagination.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    @Susan

    “@ Grerp
    Lady,
    You need to be cloned!!!

    Jealous.”

    LOL! And thanks for the compliment, Average Joe.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    It is not hard to feel sorry for Monica Lewinsky given the total glare of the media spotlight on her bad choices. But let’s remember that Bill Clinton was 1) married and 2) President of the United States and therefore pretty high profile. Neither of these facts were or could be hidden from her. She chose to attempt her second rate man poaching.

    The saddest part of the story is what young women took away from this: blow jobs aren’t really sex (but you’d better learn how to do them anyway). Instead of: when a famous married man old enough to be your father offers you nothing in exchange for prostituting yourself, decline.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Instead of: when a famous married man old enough to be your father offers you nothing in exchange for prostituting yourself, decline.

      Actually, on the previously mentioned Vineyard vacation, he did buy Monica a Black Dog t-shirt. Classy.

      The saddest part of the story is what young women took away from this: blow jobs aren’t really sex (but you’d better learn how to do them anyway).

      I’d also like to nominate children throughout the country learning what oral sex was. My own kids were under 10 when this popped up as the headline on the 5:00 news on the car radio. They’d heard it before I could hit the power button. That was a conversation I’d rather not have had. Sociologists believe that this event actually had a profound effect on that generation, and have dubbed it The Lewinsky Effect. It’s actually been studied. Your tax dollars at work.

  • autumnpari

    I feel like a lot of girls do know how they’re perceived by men when they’re hooking up. But they seem to not care or maybe they feel like not being part of the hookup scene isn’t a choice. I think one part of the problem is that a lot of girls I see simply don’t know how to say “no.” I’m not sure why that is, and it goes from simple things, like declining an offer to hang out when it’s finals time all the way to hooking up with a guy. Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively. And if they were able to do that, it would solve a lot of the problems, I think, because guys know how to take advantage of the gray, indecisive areas. Most boys take a no as a no and won’t push the issue further.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @autumnpari – Welcome back!

      guys know how to take advantage of the gray, indecisive areas

      Boy they sure do. This is actually spelled out in Game – how to break down a woman’s ASD – anti-slut defense. Women really are inclined to be people pleasers – it’s in our nature, and it’s strongly reinforced in the culture. We are easily made to feel guilty for not acquiescing – someone else gave the example of blue balls, which is a good one, I think.

  • Hope

    It’s easy to say no to things that aren’t tempting, and much more difficult to say no to things that are desirable. I know I’d have a hell of a time saying no to a thousand dollars in cash, even from a questionable source. But I had a very easy time saying no to casual hook ups, alcohol, cigarettes and partying.

    If girls really had a tough time saying no, they could be coerced into all kinds of dumb things like eating bugs or burning their hair. But you don’t see that happening. It’s exactly because many women are naturally more attracted to bad boy player alphas and are tempted by the sex with them that they can’t easily say no.

    Most people aren’t impressed by a lack of self-control. You don’t see people caring about others indulging in their hedonistic foodlust and gaining tons of weight. But there are shows and stories about people losing 100, 200 pounds from dieting, exercising and using personal willpower.

    It’d be much more of a story if as a whole, young girls all of a sudden were getting back to being chaste and waiting for love, rather than taking off their clothes and participating in wanton lustful behavior. That’s what would earn some respect.

  • J

    @grerp

    The saddest part of the story is what young women took away from this: blow jobs aren’t really sex.

    Is it a sign of my old age that I thinl BJs are more intimate than p-in-v sex?

  • dragnet

    “I am actually surprised this is high on a guy’s list. And incredulous that it’s in a college girl’s repertoire. I can’t imagine a more degrading request, though perhaps I lack imagination.”

    That’s the first thing I thought—what guy would actually want that from a girl? Right off the top of my head I can think up at least 30 other things I’d want before that. I’m pretty sure he just asked her to drive home her humiliation…and he knew what a fucking incredible, barely believable story it would be.

    And yeah, I think it’s pretty degrading although I’m not a woman so I don’t have much say here. I used to think “facials” were degrading and a strictly guy-fantasy, but girls are requesting them these days so I guess not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I used to think “facials” were degrading and a strictly guy-fantasy, but girls are requesting them these days so I guess not.

      Some women seem to believe that if they can be as good as a porn star, a guy will fall for them, or at least keep them around indefinitely. They haven’t grasped that porn star and girlfriend are mutually exclusive. Well, except for Vincent Chase I guess.

  • Snowdrop111

    “many women are naturally more attracted to bad boy player alphas and are tempted by the sex with them that they can’t easily say no.”

    Is it the sex itself that is so tempting, though–or the “badass cred” in front of their friends?

    I think “badass cred” (both genders) is way too overvalued in our culture.

  • Liza207

    “I’ve seen threads where guys say they wouldn’t even consider having sex with Megan Fox. Yeah, right. Same guys would probably do cartwheels for Barbara Streisand (ew).”

    Hi Susan,

    Isn’t true that most men are intimidated by beautiful women(you know 8s or higher). Men are less likely to approach beautiful women due to an overwhelming fear of being rejected by them. So, it shouldn’t be too surpising that there are men that wouldn’t consider sleeping with Megan Fox. In my opinion, women who are average or slightly above average are more successful with men. I can’t tell you how many times, I have been blown away by the sight of really good-looking guys, who are dating/married to very average looking women. It seems that, beautiful women are only approached by men who are over-compensating for something (e.g. ugly, fat, old, short, broke, nerds, players, jerks, psychos and so on). The a day decent(normal) attractive man were to ever approach me. I’d probably faint away, right then and there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liza
      Well sure, very few men would approach Megan Fox. I’m really talking about threads where guys say “she’s too skinny, I wouldn’t hit that,” etc. Often guys get hypercritical of a woman’s looks, even if she’s probably out of their league. I think what they’re really saying is, “I know I could never have her, but it doesn’t matter because I don’t want her anyway.” Whatever.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    This from a response to a Maureen Dowd column at nytimes.com:

    “There is one power men have that no amount of government power will ever be able to deprive them of; their right to separate women into two groups; those with whom they will have meaningful long-term relationships and those with whom they will have random, meaningless, short-term sex.”

    “No corresponding power exists for women. This is our trump on all the cards played by feminism.”

  • Snowdrop111

    “I can’t tell you how many times, I have been blown away by the sight of really good-looking guys, who are dating/married to very average looking women.”

    On the other hand, here’s something to think about. I work with a bazillion closeted gay men married to women who probably know the deal and are OK with it. Maybe it’s the industry I work in. Just a thought on those super-handsome men with plain jane wives. From what I can tell, the companionate love is genuine. And whatever they do in private I don’t know and it’s not my business. But I very much think, 99 percent sure, the wives are in on the deal and Ok with it.

  • Hope

    People still do that these days? I thought gay guys marrying straight women was done and over with since being gay is more socially acceptable now. Do these couples have kids? What industry is this? Politics? (I joke… sort of.)

  • J

    Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt, even emotionally damaged by him. I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man – with his skill, and absence of conscience or empathy, he will play a woman hard before she even knows what hit her.

    It certainly argues against sex oputside of established relationships.

  • J

    She chose to attempt her second rate man poaching.

    Obviously this was morally wrong, but I still fault the former Prez more than Monica. First, he was older and had it all over her in terms of sophistication. There’s a basic unfairness there matter how bad her behavior was. She was only a few years older than his daughter at the time of the affair and had some emotional problems that both Clinton and Linda Tripp took advantage of. Clearly a firmer moral compass would have kept her out of trouble, he did take advantage of that fact. Second, I tend in general to not see that sort of thing as man-stealing. If my own husband were to cheat, I’d be far more angry at him than at the other woman. She, after all, made me no promises. My husband OTOH stood up before God and promised fidelity. That Hilary stood by her man, who had a history of such vow-breaking, killed whatever respect I may have had for her. Both Clintons now disgust me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J
      I agree 100%. I don’t buy the whole “homewrecker” thing. Bill Clinton’s marriage was not ML’s responsibility, and his infidelities were well known. What really steamed me was that NOW refused to condemn him AT ALL, though they had called for Bob Packwood’s head for far less. Ugh. As for Hillary standing by Bill, I do believe their marriage is strictly strategic – whatever their connection is, it’s pretty clear that sex isn’t part of it, and probably hasn’t been for hmmm, how old is Chelsea?

  • dragnet

    “Some women seem to believe that if they can be as good as a porn star, a guy will fall for them, or at least keep them around indefinitely. They haven’t grasped that porn star and girlfriend are mutually exclusive.”

    I think this is what happens when being a whore is considered “empowering”. The porn star stuff needs to wait until you are years into a relationship, IMHO. Anytime before then is a serious red flag to a guy. Anytime after that makes him feel lucky to be with you.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    but its slighty easier to control std risk with oral.
    it seems to me that oral doesnt count as sexual contact.

    I’m sorry but that’s just not true unless a condom and dental dam are used, which is rare. 75% of new genital herpes infections on college campuses were transmitted via oral sex. Not counting oral as sexual contact is very strange. What kind of contact is it when you lick someone’s genitals?

  • The Deuce

    Sasha:

    My set of flat mates in particular last year (flat of 5 girls and 1 boy) had a wall of shame for a few months of photographs of all the conquests that left the house over that period.

    *snicker* Well, I’m sure the guys this happened to were just devastated when they found out!

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    I agree that Bill Clinton was much older and more experienced at adultery (and life), and as Monica’s superior if not boss, should have kept his pants zipped. And he was the one who was married and should bear the blame for cheating.

    I also agree that the Clinton marriage was strategic and Hillary appears to have adopted a “Just keep it discreet” way of dealing with Bill (which he clearly ignored). She pretty much traded her self respect and the chance at having a real marriage for her shot at the brass ring.

    But I don’t give a pass to women who sleep with married men, happily married or not.

    And, yes, the hypocrisy of NOW was pretty amazing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But I don’t give a pass to women who sleep with married men, happily married or not.

      Nor do I – I recall your post on man-poaching and have no disagreement with it. I think the case of ML and Clinton is obviously an extreme example – she was no pillar of moral strength, but I always felt that the power imbalance and age difference lay the blame primarily at his feet.

  • Anonymous

    What really steamed me was that NOW refused to condemn him AT ALL,

    Yes, that was appalling.

    As for Hillary standing by Bill, I do believe their marriage is strictly strategic

    Yep. She got a chance to be co-president; now he gets a turn at co-Secretaty of State.

    whatever their connection is, it’s pretty clear that sex isn’t part of it, and probably hasn’t been for hmmm, how old is Chelsea?

    LOL. 30.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous
      Re the Clintons:
      And they’re not done yet. We may still see them happily reunited with the staff at 1600.

  • The Deuce

    I notice that the question of the ethics of preserving the reputation of the girls you’ve hooked up with has come up. I think it’s worth looking at it from both sides though. Sure, telling the entire school how you degraded a girl you hooked up with might be mean. On the other hand, you could say they’re performing a service for other men. If I’m considering a relationship with some girl, and she gave a rimjob to some dude on the football team during a hookup, that’s a piece of information I want to be privy to.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      On the other hand, you could say they’re performing a service for other men. If I’m considering a relationship with some girl, and she gave a rimjob to some dude on the football team during a hookup, that’s a piece of information I want to be privy to.

      Eh, I’m not so invested in the ethics argument. If you perform such an act for a guy who is a known player during a casual encounter, you’re an idiot if you don’t think he’s going to talk. We may be shocked at the callousness of the guy’s sharing the story among 120 teammates, but we probably shouldn’t be. The fact that he even made that request in the first place revealed his feelings about the woman, not to mention the nature of his sexual experience. The idea that guys would protect the reputation of women who engage in such behavior is essentially a request for chivalry – and that’s not reasonable.
      One might also say he provided a service for other women. There’s now no chance that this woman will lure a guy into a relationship, which benefits women who are not performing such acts.

  • Snowdrop111

    @Hope: Publishing.

    I think both want the family life and are genuinely happy with that aspect. I also think in many cases both partners are too fastidious for sex anyway. Sex would take time away from their poetry circle.

  • The Deuce

    @Athlone:

    @Athol: yeah, and this is at an Ivy where girls are relatively more reserved and the partying is much more restrained. Imagine what its like and your average state school.

    Stories like that wouldn’t even register at Florida or Alabama, or even Albany State(NY). Its child’s play.

    .
    Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the other way around. Ivy-league elites tend to be ultra socially liberal, and to not bother instilling their children with even basic character or moral awareness. It’s the same reason that successful societies tend to collapse into decadence. Their success insulates them with a false sense of security. They come to think they’re above the need for the petty morality of the little people. And yet it doesn’t stop their daughters from ending up miserable filthy cumrags.

  • Athlone McGinnis

    @The Deuce:
    The Deuce: “Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the other way around.”

    Athlone: It isn’t. I’ve seen and heard enough to get a fairly strong understanding of both scenes. No school in the Ivy League even comes close to an average state school for partying. Most less selective private universities surpass them as well, even in smaller cities like Amherst, Albany or Providence. There really is no comparison.

    Deuce: “Ivy-league elites tend to be ultra socially liberal, and to not bother instilling their children with even basic character or moral awareness. It’s the same reason that successful societies tend to collapse into decadence. Their success insulates them with a false sense of security. They come to think they’re above the need for the petty morality of the little people. And yet it doesn’t stop their daughters from ending up miserable filthy cumrags.”

    Athlone: Well, I’ll start by saying that none of this is actually correct. The generalizations you are making are fairly common among critics of selective higher education, but if you actually came and spent enough time here, you’d lose them quickly.

    I spend plenty of time around the sons and daughters of the people who pretty much run this country(despite not actually being one of them myself). I can tell you that their culture is not the one you described. They’re not nearly as liberal as you think, for one. Sure, we have some of the typical “limousine liberals” here for sure, but there are tons of conservatives, much more than you’d expect to see at an Ivy.

    Secondly, the basic character values and morality are present in spades here. Most of the kids who go here are pretty decent people, conservative and liberal alike, and very polite for the most part. Seriously, most who visit are surprised by it. They don’t skimp on some of the typical family values either. Their rates of marriage are actually HIGHER than average, and a lot of their “values” as a group seem to be more intact than I’ve seen at other places. Illegitimacy, for example, is damn near unheard of in most of their backgrounds, and when they leave they seem more apt to marry and begin that same cycle again than others are. When I see them with their families on parent weekends and other events, I see a lot of cohesiveness.

    And finally, their wealth does not create any degree of reckless abandon as you seem to be insinuating. It does create some other social dynamics(some of which I eluded to in comments on other recent posts), but wildness is not one of them. Kids here are FAR more restrained than at other schools due to a variety of factors. Some of it is intelligence(less likely to make impulsive decisions), sometimes its even just social awkwardness(lots of really smart kids = some uniquely weird interactions). We have some of the stereotypical party dudes and girls here like you’d expect at college, but they aren’t as common at all because few of them actually get in. It isn’t the same.

    If you want to party, your only options are friday and saturday nights if you want to see a decent number of people, and some weekends you will find NOTHING. The campus will be dead because kids decided to just stay in and study or hang out in small groups. No wildness at all. That is just unimaginable for most kids in college. My friends at various state and private schools in New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey can go out at least 3-4 times a week, and there is ALWAYS at least one decent sized party on each of those days. They would be bored out of their minds here.

  • Seeds for Life

    This from a response to a Maureen Dowd column at nytimes.com:

    “There is one power men have that no amount of government power will ever be able to deprive them of; their right to separate women into two groups; those with whom they will have meaningful long-term relationships and those with whom they will have random, meaningless, short-term sex. No corresponding power exists for women. This is our trump on all the cards played by feminism.”

    This makes zero sense. Is she saying I should’ve married the men I had casual sex with? Or I should have just relegated my current husband to the casual sex pool?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Seeds for Life
      It means that by and large, there is a sexual double standard that is biologically driven. Most men have different short-term vs. long-term mating strategies. For short-term mating, they prefer women with a high sex drive and a high degree of sexual experience. For long-term mating, they prefer sexual inexperience, and seek reassurance that a woman will be satisfied with monogamy. For obvious reasons, women can’t be both. Do promiscuous women marry? Yes, sometimes. But the pool of men who do not care about a woman’s sexual past is far smaller than the population of men who do.

  • ATS

    I grew up with three brothers, and what they pounded into me growing up was, “There are girls men play with, and there are girls men take seriously. Girls need to decide which one they want to be and act accordingly, because men follow your lead.”

    I don’t know how relevant the “men follow your lead” part still is in the present hooking up atmosphere though. These days I shake my head at finding out that my twentysomething nephews manage to get girlfriends just by TEXTING, because when I was single, courtship was the norm.

    Geez, does that make me sound ancient or what??

  • Anni

    “I think one part of the problem is that a lot of girls I see simply don’t know how to say “no.” I’m not sure why that is, and it goes from simple things, like declining an offer to hang out when it’s finals time all the way to hooking up with a guy. Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively.”
    YES! This is my experience. I can honestly say that I wouldn’t have done some things that I have with guys if I had at the time known how to assertively communicate that I didn’t want to do those things. Over time I have learnt to say “no” better but at times it is still challenging. I’m willing to bet that this is the experience of a lot of young women. While I don’t believe anything is wrong with having sex per se, this could be one argument for women delaying sexual activity until later in life. All advice I ever got was “use a condom” and that pushed me into doing it way too early simply because no-one had explained me why I should wait. I wish someone had told me instead, “Sex is something you might want to wait with because of X, Y and Z.” Women would benefit from not having sex until they have learnt to say “no”, otherwise they may get pushed into things they really don’t want to do.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    @Susan

    I think the consequences for Monica were way beyond what most people suffer for making stupid mistakes when young. Bill is a serial player. She didn’t lure him into adultery; he hadn’t had respect for his marriage vows – well, I’m betting ever. So, he’s powerful and magnetic and he gets her to do what he wants and she suffers intense media scrutiny and a majorly dinged reputation for the rest of her natural days while he stays married, stays President, and continues to enjoy the admiration of millions. That his daughter’s wedding was celebrated as an American royal wedding and he got to walk her down the aisle and stand in the happy father/husband spot in the pictures says it all.

    OTOH, I’ve read a number of articles lately on feministe, etc., talking about how we shouldn’t blame the other woman because it’s our partner who was in the relationship and decided to cheat. But to reframe the argument, if my son got busted for using drugs, I’d be angry and disappointed in him and I’d also be angry and disappointed at the drug dealer who made the drugs so easily available (and very likely at the society that says out of one side of its mouth that drugs are no big deal and out of the other repudiates them and puts people in prison for years for dealing or using them). No, Monica was not as culpable, but her actions were hardly altruistic or even morally neutral.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @grerp
      I agree, though I think there are varying degrees of responsibility. Poaching, or luring, someone – that is, setting out to seduce them is quite different than being a target of seduction by a person with a lot more authority, e.g. POTUS, or a college prof. However, ML clearly was not targeted – she participated fully in wooing Clinton as evidenced by her Linda Tripp confidences. She was drunk on it, so she is definitely somewhat culpable. I agree with you, too, that she paid a very high price for that youthful indiscretion.

  • J

    @Susan

    I am Anonymous on September 1, 2010 at 10:15 pm. Forgot to sign in, sorry.

    And they’re not done yet. We may still see them happily reunited with the staff at 1600.

    Oh, no doubt we will. Nothing sticks to them; they’re teflon.

  • jt

    I think all this is irrelevant now as the pay gap between men and women has now been reversed. Many women as of now won’t and don’t have to worry about labels as they’ll continue to have casual relations with men. Their biggest problem in the coming years will be more and more men are going to tune out as they wake up to the fact how lopsided and discriminatory the system is towards them. And women won’t be able to find men to support them as the jobs they took away from men pretty much is a guarantee that many will end up single for the remainder of their lives.

    Congrats ladies, you got what you wanted.

  • J

    @Anni

    Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively.

    Women are socialized to be nice. I recall once feeling guilty for blowing off a guy who was just obnoxious to me. We met through acquaintances. On our first date, he couldn’t get off the subject of what did I find attractive in men (chest hair is a major concern as I remember) and what particiular sex acts was I willing to perform. I was actually young and stupid enough to sit through the date and give serious answers to those questions. I refused a second date, but felt horrible about possibily misjudging him until a male friend assured me that I was crazy for worrying. And I’m a famously assertive woman!

    I wish someone had told me instead, “Sex is something you might want to wait with because of X, Y and Z.”

    I think that people are actually afraid to say that because they assume that no one will listen.

    Women would benefit from not having sex until they have learnt to say “no”, otherwise they may get pushed into things they really don’t want to do.

    Very, very true. Sex is so powerful a force that people without a good deal of ego strength can really be messed up by it. Penetrative sex is literally letting someone inside you. That means something for better or worse.

  • Snowdrop111

    “Women would benefit from not having sex until they have learnt to say “no”, otherwise they may get pushed into things they really don’t want to do.”

    This is so true. And it also applies to girls raised very, very strictly. If you raise your daughter 1) to be extremely afraid of authority, anger, or disapproval, and 2) that any male in the entire world has authority over any female anywhere in the entire world, 3) that her entire identity and all chance for approval, acceptance, or success lies in “snagging” a man, and 4) that she has no right to decide anything for herself, an unintended consequence is you are raising a pushover with no authority in her “no.”

  • J

    @grerp

    That his daughter’s wedding was celebrated as an American royal wedding and he got to walk her down the aisle and stand in the happy father/husband spot in the pictures says it all.

    Yep. Nauseating isn’t it? And Hillary right there beside him!

    OTOH, I’ve read a number of articles lately on feministe, etc., talking about how we shouldn’t blame the other woman because it’s our partner who was in the relationship and decided to cheat.

    I sure wouldn’t call the other woman’s actions good or even morally neutral, but I prefer feministe’s position to the sort of nonsense you see on Jerry Springer where the wronged wife, babymama or gf rationalizes the guy’s behavior (“That bitch stole my man!”) so she can stay with him. A man isn’t an inanimate article that you can just pick up and walk away with. He has to want to go. And serial cheaters are very good at preying on the young and stupid, getting hopes up and even lying as to their marital status to get what they want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I prefer feministe’s position to the sort of nonsense you see on Jerry Springer where the wronged wife, babymama or gf rationalizes the guy’s behavior (“That bitch stole my man!”) so she can stay with him.

      The college version of this is women automatically despising their bf’s exes, or their ex’s new gf. Often this jealousy is born of insensitive behavior on the part of the guy, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the other woman. Intrasexual female competition prevails, though, and women do use it to justify excusing rejection by men.

  • J

    @jt

    While some classes of women out-earn some classes of men, women in general still earn .78 to every dollar earned by men. If all the keeps men and women together is a paycheck, then men are still safe.

  • Hope

    I went to a private university that was an Ivy League wanna-be, where the kids were self-conscious about not getting into a real Ivy, but the school was still ranked in the top 15. I found a similar atmosphere that Athlone talked about — lots of studying, not much partying. Most students I knew were busy with organizations or homework. All the on-campus parties are “dry” meaning no alcohol, and they were also weekend-only.

    So I do not think this is necessarily a liberal vs. conservative thing. It seems to have more to do with class, background and upbringing. My husband’s family is very liberal, and he is more leftist than I am, but he definitely did not sleep around and has often denounced casual sex. I think the more accurate description is “traditional.”

    And jt, you might want to take your job grievances up a bit higher than the masses of women doing clerical and mundane jobs. Men are having a tough time due to globalization and outsourcing of almost all manufacturing, technology and traditionally masculine jobs. Construction has been flooded by cheap labor from immigrants as well, and you can thank the corporations who want to cut costs and make more profit at the expense of the workers.

    As the average worker’s wages have stagnated or decreased, the top money has increased by leaps and bounds. The difference between middle class and the mega-wealthy has increased tremendously. Furthermore, women have been working in Asia for many years, earlier than even women in the West, yet there is no outcry that men are less able to find work than women there… probably because so many jobs have been exported there. Cheap labor costs plus globalization. Follow the real big money instead of the peanuts that most women make.

  • http://eveslibrary.wordpress.com/ V

    Yes! I remember one time I took a guy up to my room, frankly just because I didn’t want to offend them. He of course thought I wanted to have sex or make out at least and things went from uncomfertable to borderline serious misunderstanding when it was revealed that I didn’t want any of these things. It can be exceedingly hard to say no.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes! I remember one time I took a guy up to my room, frankly just because I didn’t want to offend them.

      From my About page: 12% of women say that it is sometimes easier to have sex with a guy they don’t know than to make conversation.
      Also, I know that many young women in college would rather say yes and get it over with than risk a confrontation with possible aggression. They could call 911 easily, but they don’t want the social blowback that comes from filing a complaint.

  • bsg

    .78 for every dollar is not an average, it is an aggregate. men work more hours than women in aggregate. if you caluclate hourly wages, the differnce between men and women is much slimmer.

  • jt

    At j:

    But now there’s evidence that the ship may finally be turning around: according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group. In two cities, Atlanta and Memphis, those women are making about 20% more. This squares with earlier research from Queens College, New York, that had suggested that this was happening in major metropolises. But the new study suggests that the gap is bigger than previously thought, with young women in New York City, Los Angeles and San Diego making 17%, 12% and 15% more than their male peers, respectively. And it also holds true even in reasonably small areas like the Raleigh-Durham region and Charlotte in North Carolina (both 14% more), and Jacksonville, Fla. (6%). (See TIME’s special report on the state of the American woman.)

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html?xid=rss-fullnation-yahoo

  • dragnet

    “.78 for every dollar is not an average, it is an aggregate. men work more hours than women in aggregate. if you caluclate hourly wages, the differnce between men and women is much slimmer.”

    Yes. Women have shorter careers due to child birth and are generally less willing to work as many hours as men. When studies control for these facts, it has been established that women actually make 101 percent of what men do. That’s right—women are given a 1 percent premium just for having vaginas.

    The pay gap is gone, folks. Time to stop beat that dead horse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women have shorter careers due to child birth and are generally less willing to work as many hours as men.

      This is another area where feminists refuse to be intellectually honest. I had a consulting career working 80+ hours a week, traveling most of the time. When I had a child I went from 100 mph to 0 mph. There really was just no way I could continue to do that job. I have friends with similar stories from law – they made partner before having a child, then realized it would be physically impossible to maintain that career. Same deal for women in medicine. So what do women do? I went freelance, subcontracting with my old firm, and I made a lot less money. Female partners in law firms join companies as legal counsel, trading the big bucks for a better lifestyle. Women avoid surgery and become pediatricians. As women we make choices that compromise our pay so that we may get other benefits. This is obviously not true for everyone, but it applies to the vast majority. Very few women in my own b-school class stayed in the fast lane for more than 5 years or so.

  • jt

    And back at j:

    The article is about 20 something single childless women. Many of those women are destined to remain single the rest of their lives because of hypergamy. Men are being outearned and their status as unemployed will also continue to rise thus taking them out of the relationship equation altogether. Quotas, an education system geared towards women and now the ever increasing boss being big daddy government has pretty much ensured this trend will rise in the future.

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    Coming in late in the game here but…

    Being a girl who has been privy to a lot of guy talk I can vouch for the fact that guys will gossip as much as girls about who they’ve slept with and who is willing to do what. It’s insane and immediately you know that girl has been black listed. I started with a really long comment here that became off topic and more about me so i ended up expanding on it and posting it on my blog although I suspect that it’s not showing up as the most recent post yet underneath this comment. I hadn’t posted in awhile myself because of some family issues and work taking over my life as well.

    But again – girls need to learn to say no. The odd time I’ve ended up making out with a guy while drunk I stop early on and make a point of laying out the boundaries and none of those guys have pushed for more and in fact they’ve always said something to the extent of “I know – you’re not that type of girl.” Later on they’ll re-iterate that they know I’m not that type of girl in the sober light of day. If a guy pressures you for more, he doesn’t respect you so bounce. For real. You don’t have to put up with that shit.

  • Maura

    HI I love this blog and these discussions!

    Susan,
    You asked how women can avoid men like the hockey player when they often hide their true asshole-ness from girls with whom they are trying to score. I think it is the girl who is fooling herself and not the other way around. Here is how she can avoid trickingherself into believing an a-hole is a nice guy:

    1. Wait for him to treat her like a girlfreind before doing the deed. This includes going out in public together on actual dates. If he is willing to be seen with her at the cafeteria, football game, movies with his buddies as an pre-arranged date then he is views her as more than a conquest to humiliate.
    2. Forget the false dichotomy of “guys like this.” He would probably treat an actual wife/girlfreind very well. The trick is to be in the girlfreind zone and not the pump and dump zone.
    3. Girls should be realistic about who they can land and date below their station if they can’t find a suitable guy rather than get used by the alphas. By colleges, girls know how attractive they are and if they are a 5 they ought be suspicious of the captian of the hockey team’s advances. They know he can get better.

    I realize 3 violates hypergamy but this is how I got through college and I was able to avoiud public humiliation. (now happily married 10 +years)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Maura
      Welcome, thanks for joining the conversation!

      Wait for him to treat her like a girlfreind before doing the deed.

      I’m not sure if you intended this, but you make an interesting point here, one we’ve discussed a lot. That is, most guys will not make a relationship “official” without being sexual first. With rare exceptions, they don’t need to, and they’d rather commit once they feel assured that the sex is going to be really good. However, as you say, a guy who is treating you like a girlfriend, clearly and unashamedly demonstrating his continued interest, is probably a good bet. No woman wanting a relationship should have sex if she is at all insecure or unsure about the guy’s feelings for her.

      The trick is to be in the girlfreind zone and not the pump and dump zone.

      Well said, and this can only be accomplished if the guy knows right up front, either through your reputation or direct communication, that you are a girlfriend, not a hookup (the female equivalent of dad vs. cad).

      I realize 3 violates hypergamy but this is how I got through college and I was able to avoiud public humiliation.

      Interesting. If we think of hypergamy as an evolved strategy to choose the best possible mate, then certainly some women can override that impulse to adopt a strategy more suitable to mating in the 21st c.

  • Esau

    Various: Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively …. Women are socialized to be nice …. It can be exceedingly hard to say no.

    .

    Solipsism at its very zenith; take a look around, as the view doesn’t get any better than this.

    .

    This is so utterly ludicrous, so fantastically flat-earth at odds with reality that it’s difficult to know even where to start in responding to it. Perhaps I could introduce you to a man — or two, or three, or ten million — who’s just lived through his 1,000th firm and unmistakable rejection from a woman, and you can explain to him just how hard it is for women to say no. Then, consider yourself lucky if he doesn’t haul off and slap you hard across the face — only fair, in a sense, since propagating this pernicious, dehumanizing tripe practically amounts to an act of violence in itself.

    .

    I’ve read a number of things on this blog that show just how disconnected from reality women can be (though, to be fair, I will credit female HUS commenters as being noticeably less delusional than other communities, such as modern-day feminists). But “women have a hard time saying no” is really an award-winning cut above, one for the record books. As a public service, let me re-acquaint you with reality as it stands on Planet Earth:

    .

    Of all inter-sexual acts between men and women, the most common — by far, bar none — is the act of a woman rejecting a man’s advance/request. To a first approximation, the entire sexual world is one giant female mouth saying “No”; all other occurrences amount to a small correction numerically. Women are experts, grand masters, black belts in saying “No”, with thousands of hours of flight training under their belts (no pun intended). How anyone can type the contrary without having their very keyboard burst into flames is beyond me.

    .

    On the receiving end of all this rejection, of course, are men. WIth perhaps a few gifted exceptions, men eat, drink and sleep rejection. Rejection is the very air we breathe, it is the sea in which we swim. If you count all forms of advance and request — and there’s no reason you shouldn’t — then the typical man is rejected ten times a day, every day, for ten thousand days of his life. The woman who scowls and turns her head when you look at her, the woman who refuses to smile back, the woman crosses her arms and looks bored when you open your mouth to talk to her — and, if you get over all those hurdles, the vast majority of the time a man’s reward is simply to hear that, no, the woman is not interested in hanging out later, or any time this century. Women like to think that men have it easy, or at least that certain men have it easy; but remember that even PUA’s and successful womanizers are still playing against long odds. Warren Beatty once said that even he was shot down 90% of the time, and what does that mean for the rest of us? 99% failure? 99.9%?

    .

    So, ladies, get it straight: being rejected is the norm for male life, and rejecting is the norm for women’s behavior. That’s the reality on Planet Earth. Now, I’m not saying that reality should be, or even could be any different. Women are generally quite picky, and not without good reason; and even if they weren’t, there simply wouldn’t be enough hours in the day to say yes to all advances. Given the realities of the male drive, it is pretty much inevitable that large majority of their advances will be rejected by women, and there’s nothing bad or evil about that fact in itself. What is bad and evil, IMO, is not recognizing reality for what it is, and instead indulging in ludicrous, self-serving fantasies about how accommodating, un-hurtful and eager to please women are. We all have a choice about that, and writing “Women have a hard time saying no”, in its many variations, is an utter failure to recognize reality for which you should all hang your heads in shame.

  • dragnet

    Esau for the motherfucking win.

  • Chili

    Esau,
    I understand where you’re coming from. But I think you’re misunderstanding a bit.
    .
    You are absolutely correct in that saying no to a random stranger on the street is completely easy. It’s pretty much second nature in fact–especially in big cities like where I live.
    But when you’re with a man with whom you have an emotional connection and that you’ve been making out with on your couch for the past half hour it’s pretty damn difficult to say “I’d rather not go further today.”
    .
    Maybe you can’t understand why that’s so, but I will tell you it is so.

  • Hope

    @Esau, you overlooked my comment yesterday at 3:27. I’m not going to say I don’t reject men. I’ve rejected a lot of men. The only men I had trouble rejecting were the ones who professed to me that they were in love with me and would be devastated if I rejected them… so I often did not. What the girls mean is they get extra pressure by bad boys, and they don’t know what to do. The good guys don’t usually put on that pressure.

    @jt, I do agree that men were hit the hardest by this depression (let’s just call a spade by a spade) and lack of jobs, and I see this in my daily life and the lives of my female coworkers who are married to out-of-work construction guys, tech guys, etc. The bad school system, quotas, discrimination against masculine work styles, and the emphasis on “agreeing with the current system” make it hard for men to get ahead.

    It is also, as I said, in large part because of the shift in the national economy to a globalized economy, in which both low-skill and high-skill labor in manufacturing, construction, engineering, information technology and other male-dominated fields have been flooded by cheap labor or outsourced/exported to China, India, etc.

    There is almost no job growth in infrastructure building here in the US, and men excel at infrastructure. No high-speed rails being built like in Japan, Europe or China. No funding for the space program that was so dominant 50 years ago. No real headway into alternative energy because oil infrastructure is still dominant. You basically have paper-pushers and managerial type of jobs left, which women fill to the satisfaction of their bosses due to their lack of “rebelliousness.”

  • dragnet

    @ Chili

    The point is that women have the wherewithal to say no if they really, really want to say no. And they do it all time. The fact that they don’t say no to alpha assholes even though it could be hazardous for them not to is meaningful in that context.

    What’s being said here is that although women are raised to be “eager to please”, then still have no problem shutting down guys—-unless they find them attractive. Okay fine…how does that make them any different from men? Men also find it difficult to say no to hot women, while have no problems completely shutting down the Cigstaches of the world.

    The point is that the inability to say no to attractive people isn’t unique to women. But the blanket statements on this forum (ie, “Women really are inclined to be people pleasers – it’s in our nature, and it’s strongly reinforced in the culture.”– S. Walsh) ignores that basic fact.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      What is bad and evil, IMO, is not recognizing reality for what it is, and instead indulging in ludicrous, self-serving fantasies about how accommodating, un-hurtful and eager to please women are. We all have a choice about that, and writing “Women have a hard time saying no”, in its many variations, is an utter failure to recognize reality for which you should all hang your heads in shame.

      I think we need to differentiate some here, and just take a vacation from the word solipsism. The women on this thread are specifically discussing saying no to someone they’re already acquainted with. The point is that women are indeed socialized from the earliest age to negotiate, compromise, demonstrate empathy, pretend empathy, etc. (Note: Yes, we learn to manipulate others by pretending to be nice when we’re going for the jugular). This is expected of girls, and just as boys are penalized for rough and tumble behavior in school, girls are penalized if they are not nurturing and inclusive as children.

      It goes without saying, I would think, that turning down a request for sex is difficult only when the woman is tempted. She is tempted physically to proceed, i.e. blue ladyballs, but her cerebral cortex sounds the alarm that this might not be such a good idea. The male kicks in with anti-slut defense – well after sexual attraction has already been established.
      .
      Do women have trouble saying no to men they don’t find attractive? No. Not in the least. Not sure why that should bother anyone. I continue to be amazed at the continued resentment by some men that women are biologically programmed a certain way. It’s in our best interests to be selective, which means rejecting nearly all requests for sex that we’ll receive in our lifetimes. It’s a waste of time to belabor the observation that women reject men’s sexual advances most of the time. .
      .
      Is there a way that men can become more sexually attractive to women? Yes, and it’s a crapton of work. If you don’t want to take it on, don’t. But bitching at women about who we’re attracted to will change exactly nothing.

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    @Chili – I think you hit the nail on the head there in your reply to Esau. There is a difference in terms of context when it comes to saying no for women. If you’re already in certain situations and you’ve started to feel some sort of connection and you’re desperate for that male validation you will likely have a harder time saying no.

    There is a mentality that everyone, everywhere – short of the super ugly or the super religious – are having sex. The shocked looks I get from people when I state that I’m a 22 year old virgin tells me this and I know other girls have buckled under that kind of pressure because if everyone else is doing it, why shouldn’t they?

    That being said, Esau, I agree that women should be able to say no. I say no all the time – even in the heat of the moment. But I also don’t give a flying fuck what other people think, whereas a lot of girls will bow to the peer pressure. I think girls need to step up and take responsibility for themselves and develop a healthy level of self respect as well.

  • Snowdrop111

    Amen to what Hope said.

    And Esau, you should put your writing talent to becoming the next Chuck Palahniuk. The women would be lining up.

  • dragnet

    @ Reformed Tomboy

    “There is a difference in terms of context when it comes to saying no for women.”

    I still don’t see how this makes “saying no” a uniquely female problem. Of course the context is different—men and women are different. The argument seems to be that women feel sexual pressure to give consent to things that aren’t in their best interests. But that’s clearly the case with men as well, for instance the guy who’s a doormat wrt to his really hot girlfriend because he wants to make her happy and doesn’t want to lose her.

    Inasmuch as the point of this blog is to help girls make better decisions, then I understand the focus on women’s inability to say no. But the vibe I’m getting from the replies to Esau and some blanket statements from the female posters above makes it seems as if this is a problem that is somehow unique to rougher on women, and that’s just not true.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I still don’t see how this makes “saying no” a uniquely female problem.

      It’s not a uniquely female problem at all, just around when to give in to sex. That’s because this post and thread give some pretty alarming examples of women being so eager to please, and having so little self-respect, that they don’t even know they’re being jeered at in the town square.
      Certainly there are equivalent examples for men – your point, dragnet, about men being a doormat is a good one. And I daresay there’s a good post and discussion to be had about the dangers of men pedestalizing women. In fact, I think I know a blog or two that tackle that subject matter.
      Still, the stakes may be higher for women – every time a woman fails to say no to sex that is not in her best interests, she permanently devalues herself, at least according to many of the men who often comment here.

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    @dragnet – I feel like you missed part of what I wrote. I didn’t say that saying no was a uniquely female problem. However, I think there are very different contexts and as we were talking about the problem women seem to have with saying no that was what I was addressing.

    I do however think that it can be a harder problem for women – largely in that women are more likely to regret those split second decisions more so than a man will. Particularly as many guys who would find themselves in a sexual situation are likely the alphas who are actively searching for sex. Those guys that would want to say no if they were in that situation, likely won’t end up in that type of situation in the first place because they aren’t getting the same kind of attention from women. There may be other ways in which guys have trouble saying no, but I think when it comes to sex, I think it’s decidedly more rare for the woman to be the one pushing for more than the guy is willing to give. Again – I think it’s because the guys who are in those situations are more likely to have actively placed themselves there.

    I think women are mroe likely to end up in those situations without realizing what they’re doing because they a) want to be people pleasers and b) want to fit in and c) think it’s expected and d) think it’s the way to get a boyfriend.

    Most guys are not going to think that hooking up is the way to get a girlfriend.

    at least that’s what I’ve gathered in my years through conversations with friends.

  • Seeds of life

    @Easau, ”On the receiving end of all this rejection, of course, are men. WIth perhaps a few gifted exceptions, men eat, drink and sleep rejection. Rejection is the very air we breathe, it is the sea in which we swim.”

    It’s something I never thought about before until I had a quite good looking and charming boyfriend who hinted this at me. I thought that someone of his looks would have had no problem getting any woman he was attracted to. But in his geographical area, no. The women around him went for other types of men (some better than him, some worse, depending on the woman’s station in life) and a few that he liked turned out to be lesbians. He also never shot above his looks range because he felt intimated by those woman – were sure that they would reject him and if not, be too stuck up and high maintainance for him to maintain.

    That’s when he settled for me: the average looking “cute” girl with not a lot of experience and no high demands.

    I just could not understand what he was doing with me, since it was obvious to me he would have preferred other women, women that were culturally and ethnically closer to him, but appearantly “his own women” didn’t want him, despite him being quite good looking.

    After being with him for a while I realized he had some “issues” that would turn some women off. But still, he should have been able to snag some of the lower ranking women in his community for short term relationships and he wasn’t even able to do that. He had to look outside and far and wide for “love”.

    He told me, “do you know how hard it is for an average guy to get access to many women?”

    And here I was thinking, because of his background, looks, neighborhood, etc that all guys like him were players.

  • GT

    “Two words. Monica Lewinsky. She eventually had to move out of America.

    So sad. An attention hungry 21 year old from a broken home gets taken advantage of by the most powerful man in the Western World, and those few minutes of her life ruin the rest of it. Yeah, she was stupid, but stupid in a way that most girls get to forget about.”

    What’s even sadder is the power differential a dork like Clinton needed to bed Lewinsky. I mean look at JFK. Put another way, the best he could do before entering politics and gaining any power is Hillary.

  • Snowdrop111

    “I think women are more likely to end up in those situations without realizing what they’re doing because they a) want to be people pleasers and b) want to fit in and c) think it’s expected and d) think it’s the way to get a boyfriend.”

    If this were a pie chart, b (wanting to fit in) would be at least 60 percent in my opinion. Also, d overlaps with b a great deal. Many women want a boyfriend in order to fit in/have higher status/at least avoid total ZERO status. c would be most of the other 20 percent. When the guy says “Well what did you go out with me for if you’re not going to put out” or something to that effect, or the whole world acts as if there is NO SUCH THING as stopping after a few kisses. Now the whole world is saying “it’s manipulative” to stop after a few kisses.
    This is the #1 thing I was shocked about in 05 and the #1 reason I am glued to this blog even though I’m old and in a relationship. This was such a huge change in how “waiting” is looked at today. It’s other women saying it’s “manipulative” to hold out for a commitment. I really don’t know how most men feel about that. It’s hard to tell if they are saying “it’s manipulative” in order to manipulate and they would really tell their sisters to wait and tell the guy to cool his jets or get lost, with confidence.

    People are all over the map about this and the religion they profess (or at least the denomination they profess) doesn’t seem to determine whether they wait or believe waiting is “manipulative.”

    I still don’t believe waiting to weed out the ones who can take me or leave me, is “manipulative.” It was the norm in the 80’s. It was normal to tell the guy “I have to be in a relationship.” MOST of the men advisers I read say to be like that.

    It’s just been a huge change in the last few years with fellow women saying to wait is “manipulative.” Where did that come from, and why such a push?

  • Anni

    Re what has been said about saying “no” and women rejecting men
    Lots of times a young woman is given a choice to either go farther than she wants to with a guy or to lose the guy’s attention. If it’s a guy she likes and he keeps trying after she said “no” the fist (second, third etc time) then saying a final and firm “no” to him at this point is already difficult. Add the woman’s inexperience, sex pos feminism that encourages women to have sex like men and tells her that she won’t be slut shamed and a hope that this will lead to a realtionship and you’ve got a perfect mix for the making of a slut.

  • Snowdrop111

    GT, there’s more to the Bill and Hillary story than just how they looked when they were young. Jack Hitt had an essay on it back in the day.

    The gist of it was, many men who are going into politics know there is a kind of woman they are “supposed to marry” in order to make it in politics. Then there is the kind of woman they are sexually attracted to, who wouldn’t be a good political wife.

    Jack Hitt is a Southern journalist and he pointed out that the kind of woman Bill Clinton was attracted to wore a lot of lipstick and “trumpeted her sexuality” a bit like Bill’s mother. Heels, makeup, tight sweaters. Anyway, they know the kind of woman they are “supposed to marry” and they won’t marry the kind of woman they are attracted to, for status reasons.

    This doesn’t mean they don’t like and want the one they are “supposed to marry” for a life partner. They know they can’t marry the type they are attracted to…a Gennifer Flowers or a Rielle Hunter, and make it in politics. They respect the hell out of their wife, I’m sure, but they can’t have it all in one woman except maybe a lucky few. I think the guys going into politics know this, and they marry the one they are “supposed to marry” because they want success more than they want to be with the one they’re sexually attracted to.

    Who am I to say that’s wrong? I’d rather be the respected wife who was not the one he was sexually attracted to, and be realistic about it. I see plenty of marriages I think are like that. Of course there’s always the danger he’ll cheat, but if you’re the woman who’s the sexually desired object and nothing else, I think that’s a much shakier foundation for a woman’s lifelong happiness quotient.

    Not sure–I’ve never been the bombshell guys were gaga about!

  • Kurt

    Most of those women choose to be with players, so why should we feel sorry for them? A lot of those women have massive egos and refuse to settle for a guy who is of comparable attractiveness because they have deluded themselves into believing that they are more attractive than they really are. Many of these women feel as though they got burned by players, but it seems as though many of these women get played over and over again, so it seems as though they are the ones to blame for their own poor choices? I’m sure that the vast majority of those women don’t feel sorry for the “nice guys” who are overlooked by the women who flock to douchey players.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hi Kurt,
      I don’t think anyone here does feel sorry for them. It’s more like looking at a car accident – we acknowledge the tragedy, have a hard time looking away, and see if we can learn something from these women making incredibly poor choices. I highlight examples like this because women need to understand how they’re really seen by the men they’re hooking up with. I can guarantee that the woman referenced in this post probably thinks things are going great with this guy. Her friends are undoubtedly reassuring her this is the case, and may even by jealous of her apparent good fortune in snagging a hockey player. It is truly a Venus/Mars situation, and women have a lot to learn about life on Mars.

  • Average Joe

    @Snowdrop111

    Guys don’t reference “cock teasing” as a form of reverse psychology. We really mean it.
    I think female indicators of interest have changed from the 80’s in a way that would make “manipulative” an accurate word to describe stopping at 1st base.

    Quick story… At the beginning of the summer I ran into a friend at lunch, who introduced me to a bartender friend of hers. It didn’t take 30 minutes before her friend’s flirting referenced sex and first dates. I’m in an LTR so I didn’t bite, but you can see how modern interactions can set up some extremely high expectations. If I were single and to have “drinks with her sometime” as she proposed, I would have been not happy with “just kissing”.

  • erdos

    Who cares if women aren’t getting attention for whatever reason? Would anyone argue that men deserve “attention” by virtue of their simply being men?

  • erdos

    The way this blog tries to orient the problem of modern sexual dynamics towards retarded caricatures of “players” is the height of hubris on the part of women. Women are the ones who decide what enters or stays out of their legs. If they make poor choices, that’s no one’s fault but their own. No one would have sympathy for a man who decided he was being “used”, and rightly so: people do not accidentally fall in bed with each other.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @erdos
      I am not aware that anyone expressed sympathy for the woman in the post. If anything, she’s been derided for poor judgment and extreme denial. Women are indeed the gatekeepers and that’s the point of the post – don’t give it up for alpha asshats.
      I’m sorry you think the descriptions of players are “retarded.” I’d be interested to hear your view of a more accurate, less cognitively challenged portrayal.

  • Liza207

    “The college version of this is women automatically despising their bf’s exes, or their ex’s new gf. Often this jealousy is born of insensitive behavior on the part of the guy, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the other woman. Intrasexual female competition prevails, though, and women do use it to justify excusing rejection by men.”

    Susan,

    This brings to mind the whole J. Aniston, A. Jollie and B. Pitt situation, where J. Aniston seems to be more angry at A. Jollie and only blaming her for the demise of her marriage to B. Pitt. As I see it, B. Pitt should be the one she is the most angry with because he stepped outside of their marriage. But A. Jollie is the main target of her anger. I’m not saying she shouldn’t be anger with A. Jollie but B. Pitt broke his vows to her. Btw, I think the whole you stole my man or woman is ridiculous. I hope I wasn’t going off topic here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liza,
      Haha, those three come up all the time on this blog! They really are the threesome that fascinates! To be honest, I have no idea what any of the parties feel, nor could I hope to. You’ve gotta figure every single thing written about them is just rumor and gossip. On the face of it, though, I’ll agree – Brad Pitt is the one who was disloyal. Which means that Angelina got a cheater in the bargain. Not such a great deal, in my view. Plus he has gone way downhill – that beard!

  • Maura

    @susan Walsh

    No woman wanting a relationship should have sex if she is at all insecure or unsure about the guy’s feelings for her.

    This is where I think a lot of women get themselves in trouble emotionally. They think the sex will lead to him having strong feelings for her(because it will for her.) But in reality, if he didn’t feel a connection to her before, he is more likely to view her as not in the relationship zone.

    Monica Lewinsky is an interesting case of the feminists abandoning someone who grew up to follow all their examples. She was sexually free, unashamed of her multiple abortions, and aggressive. No man would want to marry her now unless he was raised in a cave somewhere and knew nothing about her. That is not at all in the best interest of women in general.

  • erdos

    There are no “players”, outside of game practitioners. If it seems that men bedding multiple successive women without commitment is “player”-like behavior, that’s because it is, but a “player” true is an outlier; someone who isn’t obeying the held sexual ethics of the time. Today, there are no sexual ethics. No one is held to any standard by anyone else, not even their own parents, for what they do with their bodies and with whom. Even men who aren’t bedding anyone are essentially players as soon as they enter the world of ‘dating’ because that’s the only ethical mode they can possibly occupy in a culture that doesn’t supply constraint. Complaining that women are being hurt by ‘players’ would be honestly laughable were the truth not so tragic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @erdos
      Technically, a player is a man who uses deceit to get sex from a woman. Many women do supply their own constraints, and a player is a man who does not respect them, and will pretend real affection to dismantle them, only to leave her in pain after he is sexually satisfied. To say that all behavior is ethical because the culture doesn’t hold us to standards is the worst rationalization for selfishness I’ve ever heard.

  • erdos

    Are you profoundly misreading what I’m writing here? I never said “all behavior is ethical” – my very point was that unethical behavior isn’t held in check by anyone, not even the government, meaning there’s effectively no ethics in the first place.

    To further claim that “players” (I’m assuming you mean largely game practitioners) are getting sex via deceit is hilarious – is this the same Susan Walsh who thought a man should be snared into commitment by lying about your partner count? Women actively seek men with a history sans commitment, because it implies he has success with other women. If you then agree with me that women can’t be trusted to guard what’s between their legs of their own volition, then we have no further points of contention.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @erdos
      I did not say men should be snared into commitment with a lie. I said that women have every right not to share that information, and to change their lives by changing their promiscuous behavior. I did say that speaking for myself only, I would not share a partner count of 36, which is what the woman in the post had. I also said that if a man couldn’t live with that, let the chips fall where they may.
      .
      It’s true that women seek men with social proof. That is not the same as saying they seek men who never commit. The ideal man is one who every woman wants and one woman gets. I’ve written about social proof numerous times, and men seek it as well. In addition, recent research shows that both women and men disrespect men who are highly promiscuous. It’s the reverse double standard, and it’s very real. Many women reject manwhores. Women like the one in this post obviously don’t, but that is not true for all women, or even a majority.
      .
      I do not agree that women can’t be trusted to make their own choices if you mean to include all women. In fact, many women learn from their mistakes, just as men do! Who knew?
      .
      erdos, I don’t believe we’ve met before, and your input is welcome – however, you should know that the kind of language and tone welcome at many of the Game blogs is not really how we converse here. It’s mixed company, we’re all civil most of the time, and there’s no need for snide commentary. Just put your opinion out there and we can debate.

  • erdos

    I’m fairly certain your exact words were: “If I were [a woman in a relationship broached about her partner count], I would not have told the truth”, but never mind. It’s quite immaterial to the issue at hand.

    You’re not even being internally consistent. If “many women learn from their mistakes”, what’s the point of this blog? Why do women need any external moral guidance at all? Surely they can be trusted to muddle through?

    I’m going to stress again for anyone reading this exchange that the idea that this is the fault of some small cabal of men is a massive misdirection on the part of women who want absolutely no responsibilities on their shoulders at all. Telling women to actively value fidelty and trust over transient pleasures is one thing, but painting them as victims of vampire-like lotharios is absurd and insulting. There isn’t even any indication that the girl in the original post is unhappy with her arrangement.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m fairly certain your exact words were: “If I were [a woman in a relationship broached about her partner count], I would not have told the truth

      Those were my exact words. I would not have said that I had slept with 36 men. I’ve admitted as much. I also offered this statement as a confession, knowing it would be unpopular, and speaking only for myself. It is quite immaterial, which is why you should not have raised it in the first place.

      If “many women learn from their mistakes”, what’s the point of this blog? Why do women need any external moral guidance at all? Surely they can be trusted to muddle through?

      The point of this blog is to support people who want relationships and are finding them difficult to get in the SMP. But you could have read that on my About page. The key word is support. It’s not about trusting women. It’s about informing women about what created hookup culture, how to cope with it strategically, and how to potentially succeed against the odds. My goal is to suggest effective strategies in a variety of challenging situations. Women can and do “muddle through,” but often experience a lot of heartache in the process. By sharing objective information about biology, research, economics, feminism, sexual psychology, and the experiences of real men and women I aim to arm young men and women with information that may help them avoid some of that.

      I don’t know how you can say that I’m blaming a small cabal of men. I encourage women to take full responsibility for their choices. I’m not sure why you object to a real-life portrayal of the way that men think and behave around sex. The hockey player in the post is not a good relationship bet, because he wants only sex. The woman is indeed probably quite happy with the arrangement, and she will be until he “deletes her number” which he is on the verge of doing. At that point, the guy will disappear from her life, most likely leaving her wondering what made him “lose interest,” when in fact he never really had any. Also, I’m sure you can appreciate that if we were able to share that forum thread with the woman in question, she would not be happy.

  • erdos

    Here’s another thing. What’s the definition of “commitment” to a modern girl (incl. Susan Walsh and co)? Is it marriage? Obviously not: most girls’ heads would swell to fill a planet were an alpha to propose to them. Engagement?

    What they really mean is something like a vague understanding between the man and the girl that their ‘relationship’ is monogamous, and perhaps cohabitation. Bear in mind what I’ve said so far about the total absence of punishment for or constraint over sexual transgressions. Can anyone explain why in the world a man would ever “commit” (modern definition) to a modern girl, who can leave or even cheat on him at any time without a single consequence? Hell, most girls have a chorus of friends who’ll cheer if she leaves her partner, no matter how sudden. What exactly do men have to gain out of this supposed promise of “commitment”?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @erdos
      I don’t know your background, but you don’t seem to be a participant in American hookup culture. Commitment to a modern girl means a relationship that is sexually exclusive – being boyfriend and girlfriend. That’s it. Cohabitation is not even on the table for much of my readership, they’re in dorms!
      Commitment is not vague, it is very specific. Cheating is grounds for ending the relationship, regardless of who does it.
      Most girls do not have “a chorus of friends who will cheer if she leaves her partner, no matter how sudden.” It sounds like you have had a bad experience with one or more women. But that does not give you the right to generalize about all women, or make blanket claims about female nature.

  • Average Joe

    @Athlone,

    You and I have a different take on what constitutes knighthood. Since when is NOT slamming the door in some woman’s face considered an act of chivalry? Yeah, she might have been carrying boxes so high that she couldn’t see the door, but that’s on her. What’s on you is that you slammed the door.

    Your boys are ass hats, and they are actively screwing somebody over. I don’t expect you that you convince them that they should hold a door, but I would have expected you to nudge them towards not to slamming it so often.

    I gave the Monica Lewinsky and Clinton example for several reasons. One was that both of them had blame.
    As you yourself said, “Incentives drive behavior”, yet it is not only women that offer incentives, it is also the guys you rack with and play along side. It’s not like I asked you to run into a burning building. I know, because I’ve been in similar situations as yours.

    Good luck this season.

  • Seeds of Life

    Hey! Hillary was a cute blonde when she was young. Have you seen her college pics? The good ones?

    @Susan, “It means that by and large, there is a sexual double standard that is biologically driven. Most men have different short-term vs. long-term mating strategies. For short-term mating, they prefer women with a high sex drive and a high degree of sexual experience. For long-term mating, they prefer sexual inexperience, and seek reassurance that a woman will be satisfied with monogamy. For obvious reasons, women can’t be both. Do promiscuous women marry? Yes, sometimes.”

    Promiscuous women marry all the time, if you count sex before marriage as “promiscuous”. The only places where this doesn’t happen is in highly religious and sex segregated cultures where marriages are arranged.

    In mainstream America women ALSO make a distinction between short term and long term relationship men. Otherwise we would end up marrying a lot more men than we do.

    I look back on my relationship history and I had no intention of marrying any of the men I dated – until I met my husband.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Promiscuous women marry all the time, if you count sex before marriage as “promiscuous”.

      Oh, heavens no! I define promiscuous as being non-discriminating in one’s choice of sexual partners. For obvious reasons, keeping the bar low generally leads to a high notch count. Many college women have had sex with 20, 30, even 40 different men. All by the time they’re 22.

  • Average Joe

    @Erdos
    What exactly do men have to gain out of this supposed promise of “commitment”?
    You have absolutely have no experience with good women, nor a decent imagination do you?

  • Chili

    @erdos
    “Here’s another thing. What’s the definition of “commitment” to a modern girl (incl. Susan Walsh and co)? Is it marriage? Obviously not: most girls’ heads would swell to fill a planet were an alpha to propose to them. Engagement?”
    .
    Very good question. The whole purpose of this blog is to aid young women in making choices that lead to a man committing to them. But the terms of commitment are not really clear.
    .
    That’s because commitment means different things to different people. To me commitment means marriage (that is, a boyfriend-girlfriend type relationship that is likely to end in marriage). When I’m dating a guy, I try to gauge whether I think he is ready for marriage or not. There are many indicators of this, for example if he answers the question “what do you want to do in life?” with “uhhh….i dunno…” or “well I have a major in art history so I was thinking I’d do that for a while…” Yeahhhh… ok. I usually end it then and there if I feel like it’s not going anywhere. I’m not interested in trying to change a guy’s mind. I’m only 19, but there’s no point wasting time, right?
    .
    “Can anyone explain why in the world a man would ever “commit” (modern definition) to a modern girl, who can leave or even cheat on him at any time without a single consequence? ”
    .
    Another good question. Answer: I don’t really care. The reasons for why a man wants to commit (my definition) are not important to me as long as he is ready to do so. Maybe you are not interested in marriage/commitment, but many men are. This is basically my “target group” in dating. I take relationships very seriously as you probably can tell, and I would only divorce as an absolute last resort if my spouse did something truly awful (infidelity, violence, etc.) I can’t answer for anyone else, but I’m basically looking for someone that feels the same way. Does that make sense?

  • Average Joe

    @Seeds of Life,
    Promiscuous is not equal to non virgin. Very few men would consider a woman with 1 partner before marriage to be promiscuous.

  • erdos

    “You have absolutely have no experience with good women”

    No, I haven’t

    @chilli

    What you’ve said is all well and fine, but caring personally why a man is prepared for monogamy and caring about the reasons men should foster a monogamous attitude in the current culture are two different things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      caring personally why a man is prepared for monogamy and caring about the reasons men should foster a monogamous attitude in the current culture are two different things.

      I’m not asking men to foster a monogamous attitude. I haven’t even morally judged men who have lots of sex with different women, but remain honest with them. At the same time, I think it’s fair to warn women that highly promiscuous men are 1) unlikely to commit to a relationship and 2) unlikely to make good relationship material.

  • Seeds of Life

    @Average Joe. There are very few mainstream American women who make it to the age of 21 having had only 1 sexual partner. We women can and do make distinctions between short-term and long-term male partners. Maureen Dowd must be very old and very out of touch.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Seeds of Life
      I think that quote was a commenter on Maureen Dowd’s article, not her. She is quite critical of feminism, but it was a guy explaining his view of the power that men have to select women with low sexual experience. They are not obligated to, but they certainly have the right to do so. Women should understand this, as it affects the size of their potential pool of mates.

  • Average Joe

    @Chili
    The reasons for why a man wants to commit (my definition) are not important to me as long as he is ready to do so.

    Well you need to start caring. What a man/men expect out commitment is important to whether he is happy with his relationship. If you don’t know his expectations, you are relying on blind luck to be a good partner.

  • Seed of Life

    Chilli, I had a man who desperately wanted to commit to me, for the wrong reasons. Thank God I did not marry him, we would have had to go through a very messy divorce. The reasons why an individual man might want to commit to you ARE important. Especially if he’s “settling” for you. I was settled for once and it was a nightmare. You need to commit only to a man who thinks you are “the prize”. If he’s settling for you because he can’t get who or what he really wants – DISASTER!

  • Hope

    A genuinely heathy and loving relationship is truly a marvelous thing, for both men and women. And when people do manage to find it, they want to keep it and have it last forever. I am lucky that I found it with my husband. We both knew relatively quickly that we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together and become a family, but we waited and were in a committed relationship for a year before the legal marriage.

    As for what things my husband gains: I love him, I want to and try to make him happy, give him daily backrubs, cook for him, make his breakfast, pack his lunch, clean the place, do the laundry, help bring home the paycheck, manage the bills, play video games with him, support him emotionally, listen to his venting about stress and life, talk with him about silly things and serious things, and of course give him lots of fun in the bedroom.

    I also feel like I’m the lucky one, because he does so much for me in return. Sure, he can do a lot of the things I do for him, and I can do a lot of the things he does for me (we’ve both lived alone), but we work better as a team together. There are areas we could probably improve on, and nothing is perfect. Still, we are much happier together than apart. Is that not worth the commitment?

  • Average Joe

    @ Seeds of Life
    There are very few mainstream American women who make it to the age of 21 having had only 1 sexual partner.

    What about 2?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There are very few mainstream American women who make it to the age of 21 having had only 1 sexual partner.

      What about 2?

      The average college student, both male and female, leaves school with a mean of <2 sexual partners. Of course, buried in this number is some percentage (I'd guess around 20% for both sexes) that has a high number, and 10-15% who graduate virgins.

  • erdos

    You seem to have this impression that I approve of or feel neutral towards the type of man in the original post. I find that kind of thing disgusting and I have no stake in it whatsoever.

    If you’re retreating to simply informing women that these men are “[not] good relationship material”, that bodes as ill for their future happiness as would doing nothing. I would argue that most women are more aware of how unlikely their sex partners are going to be to committing than you appear to think, and that those who aren’t – those who are truly naive – are not going to think rationally when presented with the gina tingle.

  • Chili

    @Average Joe
    “Well you need to start caring. What a man/men expect out commitment is important to whether he is happy with his relationship. If you don’t know his expectations, you are relying on blind luck to be a good partner.”

    You’re talking about a different thing entirely. Youre saying I don’t care what a man wants from a serious relationship. I’m saying I dont care WHY a man wants a serious relationship. These are different things. There are many reasons a man would be interested in one, for example he’s seen it work well for his parents, or he’s tried the short term thing and doesn’t like it. The first hoop to jump through for me is to find a man interested in monogomy. The second hoop is to find a man who has expectations of monogomy that mesh well with mine.

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    @ Susan Walsh
    The average college student, both male and female, leaves school with a mean of <2 sexual partners. Of course, buried in this number is some percentage (I'd guess around 20% for both sexes) that has a high number, and 10-15% who graduate virgins.
    .
    Thank you! I was about to add in response to Seeds of Life that some of us actually make it past 21 with no sexual partners. I’m 22 and I haven’t even gotten as far as oral. Why? Because I haven’t been in a committed relationship where I trusted the guy enough to give up the big V-card. I’ve had two “boyfriends” – one in high school and one in first year university. Both ended partly because I felt pressured to go further than I was willing.
    .
    I’ve said it before but I do always find it funny when people think of virgins on college campuses as being akin to unicorns.

  • Brendan

    I’ve said it before but I do always find it funny when people think of virgins on college campuses as being akin to unicorns.

    I think that it’s common for people to project their own experiences and preferences into these discussions.

    Practice varies *greatly* by location, for example. What is mainstream among young women in their 20s in DC, Manhattan or LA is different from what is mainstream among young women in many smaller places in flyover country — if not exactly “in kind”, then to a largely differing “degree”.

  • http://the-reformed-tomboy.blogspot.com/ reformed_tomboy

    @Brendan – I agree, it does seem to vary based on location, but I still think a lot of these percentages end up very skewered because there is this continued perception that “everyone is doing it.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I still think a lot of these percentages end up very skewered because there is this continued perception that “everyone is doing it.”

      This is an area where women may actually be exaggerating their sexual experience, for fear of feeling like a unicorn. The number of virgins – both sexes – is probably higher than reported.

  • Seeds of Life

    @Susan, you first wrote, “Many college women have had sex with 20, 30, even 40 different men. All by the time they’re 22.”
    Then you wrote, “The average college student, both male and female, leaves school with a mean of <2 sexual partners."
    @Reformed Tomboy, I merely stated that, "There are very few mainstream American women who make it to the age of 21 having had only 1 sexual partner."
    And what Susan wrote, both of them, confirm my hunch.

  • Seeds of Life

    @Susan, “. I haven’t even morally judged men who have lots of sex with different women”

    And why not?
    I think the rampant spread of STDs is more than enough reason to cast judgement.

  • erdos

    @seeds of life

    There are a lot more reasons, but here’s the real rub: there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent women from making terrible choices for themselves in the absence of any substantial social ethics. You cannot do what this blog is trying to do, which is keep the paradigm of the sexual revolution and guide women into following what’s best for them. It will not happen. There was a comment on one of the entries here (I can’t recall it) that said something to the effect of “asking women to forgo bad boys/players/alpha males/etc is like asking men to reject physically attractive women”. Glib and oversimplifying, to be sure, but the point is clear. If women have free access to any kind of relationship with anyone they want, with the onus being completely upon them to make any decision at any stage in time, they will act in a way that immediately satisfies their emotional and physical desires. Writing or advising them to do the contrary is a waste of time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You cannot do what this blog is trying to do, which is keep the paradigm of the sexual revolution

      False.

      If women have free access to any kind of relationship with anyone they want, with the onus being completely upon them to make any decision at any stage in time, they will act in a way that immediately satisfies their emotional and physical desires. Writing or advising them to do the contrary is a waste of time.

      Your opinion, fair enough. In which case, I’ll ask you to move along and stop bothering those who are choosing to spend their precious time here.

  • J

    Jack Hitt is a Southern journalist and he pointed out that the kind of woman Bill Clinton was attracted to wore a lot of lipstick and “trumpeted her sexuality” a bit like Bill’s mother.

    It’s interesting how many player-types have sort of seductive mothers. Our ex-Prez not only had a bit of a loose mom but also a charming, “traveling salesman” sort of father. He grew up with a cocktail of sexuality and manipulativeness.

  • The Deuce

    Susan:

    I did not say men should be snared into commitment with a lie. I said that women have every right not to share that information, and to change their lives by changing their promiscuous behavior. I did say that speaking for myself only, I would not share a partner count of 36, which is what the woman in the post had. I also said that if a man couldn’t live with that, let the chips fall where they may.

    Hi, Susan. This is one thing I wondered about at the time you first said it. Do you mean that it’s okay for women to simply refuse to answer that question, or that it’s okay to give a false answer when asked? Because to me, it seems that the latter is pretty much in the same boat with Dark Game – misleading someone intentionally, and in a way that is probably detrimental to their well-being, in order to get what you want in the SMP.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deuce
      Gaaah, that statement landed me in a lot of hot water! OK, for the record, here is what I believe. I agree that men and women are both entitled to the truth about a person’s sexual history before making a commitment, or indeed even having sex once. The question is designed to get at the state of a person’s physical and emotional health.
      I wrote a specific post about this, that lays out my exact feelings on the matter:
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/29/hookinguprealities/the-sex-risk-for-women-that-no-one-likes-to-talk-about/

      I do say at the end that I think it was unwise of the woman in question to volunteer the information that she had slept with 35 guys in college. Oddly, she revealed this two years into a serious relationship that was headed for marriage. The guy was appalled and was seriously considering ending things with her, even though he was brokenhearted at the idea. I believe he has every right to do so, and that it is reasonable for him to do so.
      .
      OK – now to my own admission about my probable behavior in such a circumstance. This is not advice or a recommendation – I’m being honest here, which I said at the time, and am not claiming the moral high ground in any way. Putting myself in her shoes, I certainly would not have volunteered any info about my sexual history unless asked. If it was important to him, I would think he’d have asked early on. However, if he asked two years in, and I knew or suspected that he would find my number alarming enough to end the relationship, I think I would refuse to give an exact number, though I would admit to having had casual sex in college. This probably would produce the same result – the guy would still be alarmed and threatened.
      .
      Is it unethical to hide one’s exact number from a prospective spouse? If you believe it is, then you’re equating that information with, say, STD test results. I’m not ready to do that. I reserve the right to plead the 5th. However, I do not condone pretending your number is 7 when it’s 37, and I would not do it myself, or recommend that any woman actively misrepresent her history.
      .
      Of course, that’s easy for me to say, never having had either that sexual history or a partner demanding that information. We know that both men and women lie about their sexual experiences all the time, anonymously, but also in relationships. I’ve heard of guys revising their numbers down, FWIW.

  • The Deuce

    Average Joe:

    Your boys are ass hats, and they are actively screwing somebody over. I don’t expect you that you convince them that they should hold a door, but I would have expected you to nudge them towards not to slamming it so often.

    .
    I’m sorry, but your advice to Athlone is from right out of crazycuckoocloudland. A few things:
    .
    1) These guys would be screwing these women over even if they didn’t make fun of them about it after. They still wouldn’t respect them any more, and they’d still be helping them to ruin themselves for LTRs with guys in their own league. Do you want Athlone to nag them about all that too? At least this way other men get some warning about what these women are like.
    .
    2) These are grown women. Not children. It’s not Athlone’s job to babysit.
    .
    3) Athlone himself isn’t an asshat cad. He’s a decent guy who wants an actual relationship, and tries to treat women he’s interested in well. And yet he’s supposed to play Cap’n Save-A-Ho on the behalf of these sluts who he sees making total wastes of themselves by prostrating themselves before a few cads rather than giving him the time of day? Sheesh, why not play the masochistic Nice Guy cry pillow for them while he’s at it?

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    Susan – I think we *can* be horrified by players…Just like we can be horrified by women who don’t respect themselves.

    And I am horrified – by, well, EVERYTHING.

    I just don’t understand how human beings can treat each other this way.

    Le sigh. I spent my whole college career hating my New England all women’s college and now all I have to say is Thank God for Mount Holyoke.

  • Kurt

    Susan, you should write a post about some of the STDs that are becoming more common as a result of promiscuous sex. I recently went on a date with a woman who informed me that during her annual physical she was informed that she had cervical cancer cells in her body, although they had not yet formed a tumor. As I understand it if a tumor were to grow she would have to have her cervix removed and wouldn’t be able to have children.

    I did a bit of researching on cervical cancer and discovered that the vast majority, if not all, of the instances of cervical cancer are caused by Human papillomavirus (HPV), which is an STD that a lot of sexually active people don’t know much about. There are something like 40 different types of HPV, but the one that causes cervical cancer is very dangerous and can also cause oral and other types of cancer in men.

    So I don’t think it would be a good idea for me to date this girl anymore. I suspect that she might have been promiscuous at some point in her life, although I don’t know that for certain.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kurt
      I have written about this topic, though it focuses more on herpes:
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/23/hookinguprealities/the-complex-psychology-of-std-transmission/

      I encourage you to get more info about HPV – I’m no expert, but I know that many women have been exposed and have those abnormal cells. It doesn’t mean a woman has been promiscuous – she may well have contracted HPV from the only person she’s ever been with. Men are often silent carriers, so it’s very difficult to prevent transmission. There is a vaccine, which covers the four most common strains, but I believe there are something like 26 strains in all.

      It’s scary stuff, and I’m surprised it isn’t more of a deterrent to women.

  • BDS

    I think as we get older, most (but not all) guys stop this kind of thinking, because most eventually realize how counterproductive it is. I went to a school of 1,000 and in an environment like that, we’d really shoot ourselves in the foot by sharing which girls did what with whom. Basically, as soon as a Freshman girl had hooked up with anything more than 2 guys, there were stories out about her and, feeling chastened, she’d close down. So, what was the result? Less girls at our parties and a harder time getting laid. So, by November every year, you basically had three choices: 1) restrict yourself exclusively to a girlfriend; 2) travel a half hour to the nearest university town; 3) buy a big bottle of Jurgens lotion.

    Most bragging of sexual conquests are embellished, and online, most are lies. Of course, every guy on the PUA boards is 6’2″, works out daily, has tons of money, and a harem of super-models, volleyball players and cheerleaders at their disposal so would never consider banging anything under an 8. Oddly, I never see them out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BDS
      Are you a recent college grad? I’m curious to know if it still works this way in some places – where girls shut down once they get a rep. In many schools, a girl with a reputation for hooking up winds up being torn between any negative attention she may get from some guys and other girls, and the positive sexual validation she receives from guys who will happily target a promiscuous girl. There are enough DTF chicks around that they form their own cliques. In Denice Ann Evans’ documentary Spitting Game she interviews several guys who “rave” about these girls. One guy described how his frat had a special name for girls who had had sex with at least three brothers: Toasters. The older guys would steer the pledges or guys they hoped to pledge to these Toasters at parties. In that way, the Toasters got more attention that any other girl.
      Another guy in a group house told her that they had a big whiteboard, and they would all compete for points earned by participating in various sexual practices. I imagine that a guy like the one in Athlone’s story would win the whole thing with his “rimjob” experience. They had a list of sexual practices on one axis, and guys’ names on the other. They’d fill in the squares with the name of the girl.
      Of course, you’re right about lies – I’m not sure how any of this gets confirmed. In fact, who’s to say that a guy doesn’t make the whole thing up, with little regard for the girl’s reputation?

  • Sox

    Most bragging of sexual conquests are embellished, and online, most are lies. Of course, every guy on the PUA boards is 6’2″, works out daily, has tons of money, and a harem of super-models, volleyball players and cheerleaders at their disposal so would never consider banging anything under an 8. Oddly, I never see them out.

    Quoted for truth.
    You can pick the posers out pretty quickly though…some immediately come to mind.

  • Average Joe

    @ The Deuce
    ” I’m sorry, but your advice to Athlone is from right out of crazycuckoocloudland. “

    Actually my advice is straight out of crazyalphaland… which is why I asked Athlone if he had pull, which he doesn’t.

    1. And yeah we did keep on banging girls and dropping LTR values like mad… but not as sadistically. And we still shared dirt, BUT we no longer hyper competed at making that dirt. What’s next for Athlone’s homies? Ass to mouth bets? You do realize that some colleges would think IVY league is for chumps because the rimming wasn’t ALSO captured on iphone? I’m not a saint dude, but I also ain’t the Devil.

    2. Most students on campus ARE grown, but I’ve thankfully had car keys taken out of my hand, rescued some random drunk girl from alcohol poisoning and broke up a fight so that one of my crew wouldn’t get his ass kicked. There’s a lot of babysitting going on at college. It’s not anyone’s job (save campus police), but most of us have done plenty of it. Come on! I know you’ve done some babysitting before, and I know you have been baby sat. And besides what I’m suggesting is not even babysitting. I’m just saying if a baby drops a rattle, then you pick it up rather than step over it… or worse… on it.

    3. Athlone ain’t an ass hat, but he is displaying Nice Guy tendencies. I’m not a fan of the term, cause it’s an Amanda Marcotte favorite (and thus without a female compliment) but it seems accurate in this case. And once again I wasn’t asking Athlone to start wearing a Cap’n Save-A-Ho cape, I was asking him to stop wearing that Fuck-The-Ho shirt .

    Anyway… a catchy little tune about a “gold diggin slut” from her “butt hurt” male equivalent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAV0XrbEwNc.

  • Average Joe

    @BDS
    1) restrict yourself exclusively to a girlfriend; 2) travel a half hour to the nearest university town; 3) buy a big bottle of Jurgens lotion.

    We were all about our version of option 2. The cities… combined with busing girls in from local colleges.

  • dragnet

    @ Susan

    Are you sure the comment you wrote here:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/08/31/hookinguprealities/how-guys-really-feel-about-the-girls-they-hook-up-with/#comment-16454

    was meant to respond to what I wrote here?

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/08/31/hookinguprealities/how-guys-really-feel-about-the-girls-they-hook-up-with/#comment-16431

    Because what you wrote doesn’t really address anything I actually said—I didn’t say anything about ‘solipsism’ or chastising women for rejecting undesirable men, etc.

    Maybe a mix-up?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet
      Sorry, not sure how I botched the cut and paste on that, but have revised my comment to address Esau, which was my intention. Thanks for following up.

  • Aldonza

    Of course, every guy on the PUA boards is 6’2″, works out daily, has tons of money, and a harem of super-models, volleyball players and cheerleaders at their disposal so would never consider banging anything under an 8. Oddly, I never see them out.

    .
    That’s because they’re all spending hours blogging and battling on comment thread wars. I think any guy who has had a harem will tell you flat out that it takes a lot of time and energy, and doesn’t leave a lot leftover for snarking at people online.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @Susan
    Baldness, impotence, I’m all for it. Let’s throw in some nasty genital rashes for good measure.
    .
    Great post Susan. Between you and Athol, I’m laughing far too much for reading a blog. But why all of the hate for the player? I closed my eyes and channeled a male version of J after reading the above malice: Really he’s just a good guy who falls for the sizzle instead of the steak. Sooner or later he’ll tire of banging hos and will seek out a nice girl. See, it will all work out! :)
    .
    I think the thing which irks me the most about the sexual revolution is how many people want to freely switch between standards of morality depending on what currently suits them best at the time. It isn’t just the hypocrisy of it, but the damage it does to all parties involved. This is being too clever by half, and I’d wager almost never works as intended. Women who want exciting sex with bad boys otherwise out of their league should have at it. But they shouldn’t expect a stranger they knew was a jerk to suddenly become Mr. Chivalry once he’s had a go at them. Why is this so confusing?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dalrock

      I think the thing which irks me the most about the sexual revolution is how many people want to freely switch between standards of morality depending on what currently suits them best at the time. It isn’t just the hypocrisy of it, but the damage it does to all parties involved.

      I strongly agree, and as you say, there are often long-term consequences. For women, it’s not reasonable to think that a jerk with a promiscuous past is going to enjoy monogamy – perhaps ever. The jerk has ruined himself for relationships, same as the woman who rode that carousel. Both have lowered their market value for marriage, though the damage is likely to take a greater toll on the female’s perceived value.

  • dragnet

    @ Aldonza

    “I think any guy who has had a harem will tell you flat out that it takes a lot of time and energy, and doesn’t leave a lot leftover for snarking at people online.”

    Exactly right. I described my firsthand experience at Roissy’s a few weeks ago. Having a harem really is not all it’s cracked up to be:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/chicks-dig-jerks-game-is-its-own-status/#comment-192614

  • erdos

    Is there anyone other than Susan (she’s still more than welcome to try) who can explain to me how women withholding sex, in a system where neither sex is held to any communal standard or constrained by any law, will produce commitment in their partners? You understand that these men will just leave for greener pastures, right?

  • Mike

    Is there anyone other than Susan (she’s still more than welcome to try) who can explain to me how women withholding sex, in a system where neither sex is held to any communal standard or constrained by any law, will produce commitment in their partners? You understand that these men will just leave for greener pastures, right?

    You seem obtuse on this point. I think Susan’s mission with this blog is NOT to change the overall sociosexual marketplace. That is futile…you are right….until a vast change in culture and societal norms and perhaps the reintroduction of certain behaviors being shamed.

    I think Susan’s mission is to help guide a certain subset of women to make better dating/mating/hookup/sexual choices FOR THEMSELVES IRRESPECTIVE OF THE OVERALL SMP.

    Either way, the pastures are only “greener” for a select minority of men so if some women can adjust their “standards” and make “better” choices, there most certainly will be men willing to “commit” (monogamous relationship) for a reliable supply of sex.

  • Hope

    @erdos, it’s not about withholding sex. It’s about having the connection first, and waiting to have sex only after both people are in love. Plenty of people fall in love without having sex first. Guys aren’t just a bunch of mindless, heartless sex machines. If the guy leaves for greener pastures then the girl knows he wasn’t in love with her, which is okay. It wasn’t meant to be.

    For the vast majority of people, being “in love” is a very rare thing. But it does happen. Sometimes people spend their entire lives pining after lost loves. Call it the romantic in me or something, but I think this kind of connection transcends sex or physical contact. I think with all the focus on the physical act of sex, people forget about the heart and soul of love, that it is not just about the “hottest” partner or the one with the highest “objective” sexual market value, but about something deeper and more magical.

    Feel free to flame me for my idealism now.

  • Average Joe

    @Aldonza

    That’s because they’re all spending hours blogging and battling on comment thread wars. I think any guy who has had a harem will tell you flat out that it takes a lot of time and energy, and doesn’t leave a lot leftover for snarking at people online.

    So true. Booty call bigamy is about the best a hard working guy can swing… that is if he is any good at sex. Harem’s are for trust fund babies and liars.

  • Average Joe

    @erdos

    Is there anyone other than Susan (she’s still more than welcome to try) who can explain to me how women withholding sex, in a system where neither sex is held to any communal standard or constrained by any law, will produce commitment in their partners? You understand that these men will just leave for greener pastures, right?

    If a woman only has sex to offer of course the guy is gonna leave as she “withholds” her best asset. But if she is good looking, entertaining, fun to be around, and not a time/money pit then it is not as big a problem as you think.

  • erdos

    “Either way, the pastures are only “greener” for a select minority of men so if some women can adjust their “standards” and make “better” choices, there most certainly will be men willing to “commit” (monogamous relationship) for a reliable supply of sex.”

    My whole thrust has been that women are not by and large sexually attracted to devotedly monogamous men, and that this trend will exacerbate as more and more restrictions on social behavior are lifted.

    “erdos, it’s not about withholding sex. It’s about having the connection first, and waiting to have sex only after both people are in love. Plenty of people fall in love without having sex first. Guys aren’t just a bunch of mindless, heartless sex machines. If the guy leaves for greener pastures then the girl knows he wasn’t in love with her, which is okay. It wasn’t meant to be.”

    That’s fine, but the men that women will turn down are still the type who know how little value any individual girl has to him. Being “heartless” has nothing to do with it, because there’s no moral expectation being transgressed here; it’s a schizophrenic consequence of the liberalized market. It’s also slightly amusing that I began this whole exchange by disputing Susan’s claims that amounted to some gang of men being “mindless, heartless sex machines”, but whatev.

  • dragnet

    “Of course, you’re right about lies – I’m not sure how any of this gets confirmed. In fact, whose to say that a guy doesn’t make the whole thing up, with little regard for the girl’s reputation?”

    Believe or not, there tends to be a sort of “code of honor” about these kinds of things. Sort of the like the honor system when it comes to not cheating in b-school or at university. Sure, it’s almost impossible to verify if a guy is fibbing or not, but most guys (at least in the circles I move in) are really averse to just making shit up wholesale. Especially when women are willing to do pretty much whatever you want if you’re experienced and on top of your Game. For a lot of guys, telling the truth about stuff like this is a point of honor and getting women in the sack is serious business that they invest time and energy in doing. Lying about your conquests kind of sullies that.

    I’m not saying it makes sense, but that’s the prevailing attitude where I come from.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet
      Glad to hear that about a code of honor. I guess it doesn’t include keeping secrets, but at least women are held accountable for real behaviors, not made up ones.

  • erdos

    Is this wordpress theme removing paragraph breaks? It’s hard to render posts readable because everything turns into a block.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @erdos
      Ah, I see you’ve stuck around! OK, this is a problem with wordpress, at least this theme. To get the break you have to type a period on a line.
      .
      Like that.

  • Hope

    I use the mobile version, so paragraph breaks are still in, and comments are not nested.

    Anyway, erdos, the sexual market you’re describing only exists sometimes in some places for some people. I’ve lived in three different major to mid-sized cities, and almost everyone I knew or knew of is married or in a LTR. I have never countered anything resembling a hook up culture in the post-grad, professional world.

    You say women are not attracted to monogamous men, but why do I know so many women who are monogamous and who are with monogamous men? Why do you not know many such women?

    Also, a man, as you described, who thinks any individual woman has very little value to him should not be in a relationship and would not want to be in a relationship to begin with. It sounds like a win-win situation to me; he leaves, and the woman who wants a relationship gets it from a man who also wants the relationship.

    Yeah, that’s basically what I see happens around me in stable middle class enclaves, which may not be entirely representative of all of modern market dynamics, but it certainly happens with enough frequency to dispel total cynicism.

  • BDS

    Susan – Damn, looks like I was born too early. I graduated in the early 90’s.

  • J

    But why all of the hate for the player? I closed my eyes and channeled a male version of J after reading the above malice: Really he’s just a good guy who falls for the sizzle instead of the steak. Sooner or later he’ll tire of banging hos and will seek out a nice girl. See, it will all work out.

    So you think I’m naive? Or just that former party girls should get their just desserts?

    Welcome back.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @J @Dalrock
    Welcome back indeed. Dalrock’s latest post is pure brilliance, don’t miss it.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @ Susan
    I strongly agree, and as you say, there are often long-term consequences. For women, it’s not reasonable to think that a jerk with a promiscuous past is going to enjoy monogamy – perhaps ever. The jerk has ruined himself for relationships, same as the woman who rode that carousel. Both have lowered their market value for marriage, though the damage is likely to take a greater toll on the female’s perceived value.
    .
    Well put. My wife and I were talking about marriages we knew of where the man cheated. In every case but one the husband was a known player before the marriage. In two of those cases the wife had started as the other woman. All of these women knew better, but weren’t thinking with their heads. In the exception to the rule the husband was a pretty homely guy with a fairly pretty but somewhat of a ball-busting harpy wife. He cheated and eventually left her for a really homely woman. It was very bizarre.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dalrock
      You know some really weird relationship stories! Is this how they do it down in Texas?

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @J
    So you think I’m naive? Or just that former party girls should get their just desserts?
    .
    It isn’t a matter of just deserts, but more an inability to act surprised when the totally predictable occurs. That and your soft spot for bad girls who are of course never responsible for their actions. It is part of your kindness I imagine. But I think you can see how the kindness is misplaced if the genders are turned around. That and I like to tease you a bit. Ok, that is the real reason. I just made the rest up. :)
    .
    Thanks for the welcome back. I’m still fairly swamped with family drama, but hopefully can get some more posts in on a regular basis.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    LOL Susan. Texas women are pretty tough. It wouldn’t be smart to mess with them. Especially half German Texas women like Mrs Dalrock. Luckily I’d have to be crazy to cheat on a beautiful sexy woman like her.
    .
    The weird one was a couple my folks knew when I was growing up in California. they had an ugly dog and I remember everyone said the dog looked like the husband. He was a chemist and had been involved in an explosion of some sort. He wasn’t burned but his face wasn’t symmetrical. But I’m not sure if the explosion was to blame. It might have even helped, who knows.
    .
    Of the others I think all were out of state except for one. And they married in Colorado but I believe they did divorce in Texas. I know the other two stories I told you on another post were weird, but are these that uncommon? Woman marries player, maybe starts as an affair with a married man, and then is shocked when he is unfaithful? You must know of cases like this amongst your extended circle, don’t you?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He was a chemist and had been involved in an explosion of some sort. He wasn’t burned but his face wasn’t symmetrical. But I’m not sure if the explosion was to blame. It might have even helped, who knows.

      Haha! This sounds like something out of a novel! Dalrock, have you ever tried your hand at fiction? I don’t know what you do for a living, but you have a very creative sensibility. To be honest, I know of very little drama among married couples in my own social circle. A while back three different men in our neighborhood left their wives and children for other men, but hey, this is Boston. I also know of one couple where the wife kicked the husband out of the house, although he was the sole provider – and took up with the gardener – a woman. They recently married, though he has also remarried, so all is well.

  • rick

    Susan-

    I will also say that I will not white-knight or play nice guy for these kind of women. I’m not going to be anyone’s liferaft.

    In fact, despite my being an evangelical Christian and social conservative, I find myself cheering on the players. As long as these women are not going to remain viable as marriage material and insist on rejecting good men, I desire to see the destruction of their reputations and self-esteem to be thoroughly finished.

    While I have no respect for players, I oddly cheer for them – the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Rick, how interesting. I just learned two new things about you. I get where you are coming from – women like the one in this post are understandable targets for good men who stand by while college hockey players discard women left and right.

  • autumnpari

    @Esau, in relation to women rejecting men…

    I just wanted to post a quick clarifying comment, even though it’s kind of late. I think my original post about how girls have trouble saying no got taken out of context and some of the other posters have offered some clarification I agree with. I was only talking about situations where a girl is already getting to know a guy, dating him, hanging out with him, etc. I realize that many girls may unfairly reject guys with perfectly good intentions when they’re asked out on a date or asked to hang out.
    But I was only talking about situations in which a guy is asking a girl to do something she’s not really comfortable with and she already knows the guy and likes him. Many women are just not able to say, “It doesn’t matter what this awesome guy thinks about me when I refuse to hook up with him tonight.” They want to please him because obviously they’re invested in what he thinks. At this point, it may not even matter to them that the next morning he may be texting his buddies details about their sexual exploits or destroying her reputation.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @autumnpari
    .
    Many women are just not able to say, “It doesn’t matter what this awesome guy thinks about me when I refuse to hook up with him tonight.”
    .
    I hear ya. Those mind control rays can be a real bitch. I suggest they switch to a better brand of tinfoil in their hats. You can’t trust stuff this important to the store brand. Save the cheap stuff for wrapping up your food. And double ply it, of course. But that goes without saying, right?

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @ Susan
    .
    Haha! This sounds like something out of a novel! Dalrock, have you ever tried your hand at fiction? I don’t know what you do for a living, but you have a very creative sensibility.
    .
    Thanks Susan. I’m humbled by your comment. My job is a bit difficult to describe, but Project Manager is probably the closest. Thats what I put on my tax returns at least. I work for a large tech firm troubleshooting global support/process issues. I’m really enjoying blogging because it gives me the creative outlet.

  • http://www.marriedmansexlife.com Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life

    Nah it’s not mind control Dalrock. A couple of drinks and biological programing to be sexually impulsive around highly attractive members of the opposite sex can make fools of us all.

  • Average Joe

    @Chili
    You’re talking about a different thing entirely. Youre saying I don’t care what a man wants from a serious relationship. I’m saying I dont care WHY a man wants a serious relationship. These are different things. There are many reasons a man would be interested in one, for example he’s seen it work well for his parents, or he’s tried the short term thing and doesn’t like it…

    Chili, Chili, Chili,
    Screening for a “partner” is a lot like screening applicants as a hiring manager and I’ve done a lot of both, so believe me when I tell you that WHY matters. WHY begets the WHAT’s. “I didn’t like my last job” generates different WHAT’s than “I have always wanted to work for a startup” Similarly when it comes to “commitment”, the WHY of “I’ve tried the short term thing and didn’t like it”, will consist of very different WHAT’S than for “I cherish what my parents have.”

    Some “WHY’s” should immediately put a woman on alert. The following WHY’S are not all the same. “Because I’m sick of partying” , “Because it fits in with my religious beliefs”, Because it will bring out the best in me”, ” Because I’m lonely”,” Because I have a lot to offer”. WHY is motive. And motive is very important. Do you understand now?

  • Trackstre

    Agreed. Drinking + Sexual Attraction = roll in the hay

    I’ve fallen prey to that once or twice only to achieve short-term gratification. Ultimately, a roll in the hay blows up in your face if you are not mindful of your actions. Funnily enough, I never crushed too hard on those Varsity Blues-type athletes. Being one myself, I knew the ego-games some played. Stupidly, I concluded if quarterback= douchebag, then engineering student = not douchebag/”good guy”.

    Not true. That was the most heart-wrenching of all.

    Men in sex/dating/whatever will treat you with the same respect they “feel like” you give yourself. Being sexually forthright is evidence to them of multiple partners/low standards and gets used against you.

    I’d rather know the truth and act accordingly.

  • erdos

    @Average Joe
    women are probably a lot less discriminating about why their men are turning monogamous because they have a lot less to lose over it.

  • Matt T.

    Speaking as a male, I don’t see much that’s wrong with the male complaining about his “5.5”, except that he’s probably just doing it to show off about his purported standards and status.

    The fact is, men often take very pragmatic views about their partner’s sexual attractiveness. This stands in sharp contrast to what females do, which involves idolizing their sexual partners and overlooking their flaws. A man is willing to tolerate lower quality women if he lacks the status or means to secure higher quality mates, but don’t expect him to be bouncing off the walls in joy at the prospect.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Speaking as a male, I don’t see much that’s wrong with the male complaining about his “5.5″

      I actually didn’t make a value judgment about his question – I simply presented it as a real look at how men think about their sexual partners. It’s a fair bet that the woman in question believes this guy she’s been having sex with has real feelings for her, or at least she hopes he does. She would be much better off if she knew he was 5 minutes away from deleting her number. It’s not bad, or good, that men view sexual partners this way. It just is, and women need to understand that. As you say, she’s idolizing him, and he’s not doing the same thing with her. That means she’s headed for a fall.

  • autumnpari

    @Dalrock

    I’m not saying that “oh well, this is how it is for women so men should be nicer.” No, what I’m saying, on the contrary, is that women have a problem saying “no” to situations/people that they would avoid normally and it needs to be remedied. I don’t know how this would be accomplished but I assume it would have something to do with changing how American girls are socialized. You may have trouble understanding this as a man but I’m sure plenty of women can attest to how much pressure there is on regular girls to be agreeable and noncontroversial and this can have some fairly terrible consequences, not just where men are concerned but in myriad other ways as well.

    Also, I think it takes a pretty strong will to tell a guy you really like that although you’re fine with doing X, you will not do Y. Many girls simply can’t or won’t do it. I’m not saying that’s a good thing – it needs to change.

    And yes, thank you Athol Kay. As long as we’re talking about college students, I can say with great confidence that most of my peers do not have the maturity to behave in their best interests around someone they really like, especially when their judgment is impaired by something like alcohol. And that is, after all, when most hookups are happening.

  • autumnpari

    also @Dalrock:

    I think Susan’s explanation of this women saying no subject is really good, much better than mine.

  • Chantilly

    Autumnpari is right about being socialized to be non-confrontational. I can’t say that there was an over socializing of this in my life, however, the message is loud and clear now that a woman with well-articulated opinions, preferences and boundaries is a “bitch”. And no, I haven’t reclaimed the word “bitch” and given it a new post-modern, empowering meaning and therefore I would not like to be viewed as one.

    I’m in such a situation right now with a co-worker who keeps calling me “sweetie” and “dear”. It annoys the bejeezus out of me yet I’m refraining from telling him as much because I don’t want to be perceived as a “bitch”.

    Any suggestions?

    Whenever I suppress my true feelings and opinions they usually come out in passive-aggressive ways later on and I’m afraid I’m going to blow up on him one day and scream “baldy-shorty” into the damn phone when he calls. Either that or get his butt fired!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Chantilly, I can really relate to this! Not sure about this – I’m no Miss Manners, but I can tell you what approach I would take. I’d begin to joke or tease him by saying things like “Sweetie? Ha! You haven’t ticked me off yet.” Or “If you think I’m sweet, I’m doing something wrong.” etc. Always laugh when you say this! BTW, if the guy’s a lot older, and I mean a lot older, cut him some slack. If he’s your generation or one up, nudge him into place. Just my opinion. You definitely don’t want to be yelling at him, and I don’t think any of this is grounds to get him fired. I find that humor nearly always diffuses tension.

  • Esau

    Autumpari —

    .

    “plenty of women can attest to how much pressure there is on regular girls to be agreeable and noncontroversial”

    .

    Do you see? You’re doing it again, making a general statement about the way girls and women feel and act, which is in general not true. “Regular girls” have no trouble at all being disagreeable to unattractive men, so your statement is only true with regard to men that are attractive and/or in whom the girl is invested. Without that necessary qualifier what you’ve written is basically wrong. You should do better, and put in the necessary qualifiers so as not to make general statements that are, in general, wrong.

    .

    But, really, this is all just a throat-clearing preliminary to the main point that you seem so determined to keep missing: why do you all pick such bums in the first place? Until you can admit that, and address it, the rest is just a distraction. This whole post started with discussion of some man’s behavior, degrading a woman he’d been with to his friends, that I would certainly describe as “asshole-ish” (perhaps “assholic”?). If this woman, or any other woman, wants to avoid this fate then the answer is simple: don’t lie down with an asshole in the first place. What’s so hard about that? There are plenty of men who won’t assholically trash you the morning after, why didn’t she just pick one of them instead? If you find that either (1) you can’t detect assholes in advance, or (2) you can’t resist assholes, then you’ve identified the main problem as being in yourself, not in the men of the world.

    .

    The same goes for this subject of being unable to say “no” to the request/demand of a man you’re invested in, even if it’s something that you don’t want to do or which makes you feel uncomfortable. I suppose it is a hard thing to do. But, this brings up the natural question, which you would see plainly if you didn’t insist on closing your eyes to it: why are you invested in the man who makes you do things you don’t want? Why don’t you instead become invested in a man who’ll respect you and not make uncomfortable demands? The answer, most likely, is that you’re not attracted to a man who respects you; and, once again, we locate the problem as being in you, not in men at large.

    .

    No matter how you slice it, it always comes back to the same inconvenient fact: if you, a woman, have choice (as most women do) and picked a bad man when better men were available (as they certainly are), then whatever bad behavior you’re suffering is largely self-inflicted. As one of the other commenters once put it, women must own the problem before being able to do anything about it.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @Esau
    .
    One of the most commonly held positions I find on the web is that women lack free will. It seems that men and women both are in general agreement on this. You and I are in the minority presuming that they actually have the ability to make their own choices. Maybe I’ll quit fighting it and join the crowd.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You and I are in the minority presuming that [women] actually have the ability to make their own choices.

      Women do have the ability to make their own choices. Sometimes they fail to make good choices, when impulse overrides reason. Other times they lack good information from which to draw. Either way, I support holding everyone, regardless of sex, responsible for their own choices.

  • filrabat

    Once again and again and again…

    …this is PROOF POSITIVE that nobody should ever try to even hook up with people who frequently participate in the bar and party scene or even any scene lending itself easy to alcohol (which is the most frequent venue of origin of such sexual activities). Note well I said participate in such scenes – which is much broader than the immediate sick-bucket locales.

    Besides, such people (both genders, I stress) have nothing of sustainable value to offer anyway. They are popular without being truly cool, and sexy without being truly appealing. Lots of flashy, attractive, well-dressed, charming people who really know how to light up a party or have a good time, but nothing interesting about their souls:

    *No obvious and blatant personality or fashion imperfections.

    *No sense they’ll carry on a deep, meaningful, challenging conversation that’ll profoundly change your life – as in one of the high point’s in your life.

    *No sense you can immediately drop your front, be your considerably less than cool/hip self and not get a sour lemon-swallowing look on the other person’s face.

    Something’s missing with those people – even fairly intelligent participants. And this is true even in places attracting the more high-decorum clientel!

    As I said repeately – and no doubt others on here said the same thing throughout this blog’s history – you’d do better to simply meet people who share common “high level” interests, hobbies, and activities. At least this way you won’t have to be something you are not. Besides, the pick-up scenes are better for peacocking, narcissistic, image-conscious, pretentious show-offs anyway. Do you REALLY want a guy or girl who acts like THAT?

    On this note, I highly recommend this article from the London Guardian by Charlie Brooker:
    Nightclubs are hell. What’s cool or fun about a thumping, sweaty dungeon full of posing idiots?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat

      They are… sexy without being truly appealing.

      There’s a whole lot of this going around.

  • autumnpari

    @Esau,

    I feel like you didn’t read what I wrote at all. Women are socialized to be nice and please others, like Susan and the other women commenting have said. You will have to simply take that as a given since you are a man and don’t know otherwise. When these women, who are socialized in such a way, are put in a situation with a boy who they really like and must say no to unwanted sexual advances, many simply do not have the maturity or wherewithal to say NO. Especially if they are drunk.

    This is the woman’s fault, not the boy’s, like I said above.

    Why do we pick such bums?

    I can’t really say. Must be a combination of immaturity, alcohol and the lure of an attractive man who has the confidence to approach you. I’ve been sitting out the hook up scene and have said no the leering and the hook up offers I have received. It is not flattering to simply be recognized for your vagina. I can’t tell you for sure what other girls are thinking.

    But I can also say that these nice men you speak of are simply nonexistent on college campuses. When I say nonexistent, I mean it in this way: they do not talk to women, they do not flirt, they do not smile, they do not say hello. I have friends like this; trust me, I know what they do. If they work up the courage to talk to a girl, they go and screw it up by being completely oblivious to the signs she’s putting out and by not taking their friends’ (ME!) advice.

    So let’s see, I am single, haven’t gone out on dates, have lived without male attention. I’m doing what I’m supposed to do, which is avoiding the assholes while doing my best to be nice and approachable, and so are many of my girlfriends. So where are these nice guys? Why aren’t they talking to me and giving me the option of going out with them? From where I stand, I actually have NO options.

    Next time you feel bitter about the current environment, remember that there are plenty of girls who feel the same way.

  • autumnpari

    @ Chantilly,

    I totally get you. Had an unpleasant situation with a guy at my internship this summer who seemed to think that because I disagreed with him on a completely irrelevant issue, and had the courage to tell him so, I was a bitch. Until that moment, he was very flirty. Guess opinions and boundaries aren’t what people want to see in young women?

  • Esau

    @autumpari

    .

    You will have to simply take that as a given since you are a man and don’t know otherwise.

    .

    No, don’t be silly. I don’t have to simply take it as given. I need to see objective evidence that it’s true before I believe it. And, all the objective evidence I’ve seen is to the contrary. Subjective claims, especially when self-serving (“It’s not my fault I gave in, I was socialized that way”), require objective evidence before they can be taken seriously. Remember, my exact claim is not that women aren’t socialized to be nice; it’s that said socialization doesn’t go very far, since it doesn’t result in women being nice to unattractive men. I have a bevy of objective evidence to support my case; if you have any to support yours, let’s hear it.

    .

    So where are these nice guys? Why aren’t they talking to me and giving me the option of going out with them?

    .

    Of course, I cannot tell you with any certainty what’s going on around you where you are now, or where any person of quality X is to be found. What I do know for certain is, that when I was your age I certainly talked to women, flirted, smiled, said hello, as did all my friends. We did so poorly and ineptly, as judged by women’s responses; but we did get out there and try. As you put it, we did give women the chance to go out with us, but vanishingly few took us up on it. That’s my experience, and the experience of nearly all my friends: nice guys try, but women say no.

    .

    I cannot reliably extrapolate to whatever’s happening where you are, of course, twenty years later and however many thousand miles away. But, given the obvious choice between these two, which do you think is more believable? either (A) There’s been some sort of generational/plate tectonic change, so that young men today aren’t willing/able to put in the same work in approaching women that we did back then, or (B) Nice guys are actually approaching you all the time, but you simply deem them unacceptably unattractive immediately — as happened to me and my friends twenty years ago — and don’t register the fact that they even tried. I can’t prove it either way, but certainly (B) is at least as credible as (A) from where I sit.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      We did so poorly and ineptly, as judged by women’s responses; but we did get out there and try. As you put it, we did give women the chance to go out with us, but vanishingly few took us up on it. That’s my experience, and the experience of nearly all my friends: nice guys try, but women say no.

      Esau, you’ve said it all right here. When any of us do something poorly or ineptly, we should not expect a successful result. We should expect failure. From that we may learn how to do things better. It is not plausible, much less reasonable, to ask women to see beyond poor and inept delivery.

  • autumnpari

    @Esau,

    I think I should say something even more basic. Yes, women are socialized to be nice, but nowadays, so are men. Not to the same degree, but both genders are expected to be polite, kind and respectful to EVERYONE. My generation went to grade school during a time when we were bombarded with campaigns to be inclusive, stop bullying, appreciate multiculturalism, etc. So, at least to each other’s faces, we are all very nice people. This outright rudeness/ insensitivity/meanness you’re talking about when it comes to interactions between the sexes – I see it rarely. I’ve seen attractive girls be very friendly with unattractive boys and vice versa. Do they go out with each other? Don’t know. But going out on a date with a person you find unattractive is not a requisite for being a nice person.
    *
    I’m sorry you were unsuccessful. It’s not really the same in college anymore. If you were doing all those things today, you would definitely have a girlfriend, as long as you were targeting the right girl. I have very beta guy friends who did exactly all that you said and have had girlfriends. Hell, I even know a loner physics major who doesn’t shower who has a girlfriend.
    *
    Why would you have a girlfriend? Because having casual sex does not have that much of a stigma anymore and girls are told it’s okay to follow your hormones because there are supposedly no consequences to doing so. So young, horny boys get their wish: free sex. If they can have that, why chase a relationship? It’s a lot of effort and who knows when the girl will even be ready to sleep with them. Might as well go for the girls who are ready for some bed hopping. So girls drink a lot to overcome their natural inhibitions and boys drink a lot to work up the courage and voila! We have hookups. This is the reality in college now. Men are not approaching me because it’s not worth their time. I don’t blame them at all; if I were a guy, I might do the same. But the girls who want relationships are looking for guys like what you were in college. If you really were flirting and talking and smiling and saying hello, any girl at my school now would love to be with you. We don’t have that many options when so many guys are trying to get in on the free sex bandwagon. If you think women are the ones with all the options, I think you might be underestimating the number of women who are not at all interested in casual sex.

  • Mike

    @Esau,
    I feel like you didn’t read what I wrote at all. Women are socialized to be nice and please others, like Susan and the other women commenting have said. You will have to simply take that as a given since you are a man and don’t know otherwise. When these women, who are socialized in such a way, are put in a situation <**********with a boy who they really like********and must say no to unwanted sexual advances, many simply do not have the maturity or wherewithal to say NO. Especially if they are drunk.

    I probably don’t need to speak for Esau as he is more eloquent then I am, but I think you aren’t reading what he wrote. I think his point was that the statement really is misleading, incomplete, and inaccurate if you leave out the part about “boy who they really like”. For a guy they do not like or even find unattractive there is generally no difficulty in rejecting, being disagreeable, very assertive, or even flat out cruel with some. It’s the same principle with the “intelligence is attractive” meme. In isolation, no it is not, but if accompanied by A, B, C, X, Y, Z then intelligence is attractive. So really, it isn’t intelligence that is attractive, it is A, B, C, etc and then intelligence is the just the icing on the cake. But because men tend to be more literal, and not read in between the lines, they hear “intelligence is attractive”, know they are smart guy getting no action, and wonder WTF. So back to the point, some guys who’ve probably experienced very harsh rejection are hearing this “well we just give in to what the guys want”, know it doesn’t square with their reality at all, but don’t realize it is only the 10-20% of men women find super attractive that they have a hard time saying no to. Again, I think it just speaks to the fact that the average woman basically has no conception whatsoever of the dating/sex reality of the 0-75% percentile of guys.

    Why do we pick such bums?
    I can’t really say.

    Because they have many of the traits that are attractive/turn women on. Nothing wrong with that.

    But I can also say that these nice men you speak of are simply nonexistent on college campuses. When I say nonexistent, I mean it in this way: they do not talk to women, they do not flirt, they do not smile, they do not say hello.

    They exist. I can absolutely guarantee that. Here is the problem. They have no confidence. None whatsoever. Many are probably terrified to talk to women, have no idea how to flirt, and our scared of rejection, so they just don’t try. They get to college after probably having had few to no girlfriend in high school, and basically non-existant interaction with the opposite sex. Many are probably good, decent guys who would make good boyfriends. Unfortunately, I have no idea or solution how to get them “in the game”. I know for myself, I graduated college, and was just absolutely frustrated beyond belief, and finally realized nothing was going to magically change unless I took the bull by the horns and tried to make a sincere effort. The only thing I can think of is for girls to give more directs IOIs, so these guys can work up some b*lls to go for it, but I really don’t know. Fact of the matter, human nature being what it is, most people simply are not motivated to try and rise to the challenge of improving their life. Most are content to whine and b*tch about injustice. There are a few guy commenters here like that.

    I have friends like this; trust me, I know what they do. If they work up the courage to talk to a girl, they go and screw it up by being completely oblivious to the signs she’s putting out and by not taking their friends’ (ME!) advice.

    Generally speaking, many guys, and especially Beta types are not good at reading signs and body language. It really is like a foreign language, so you have to cut the guys some slack on this.

    So let’s see, I am single, haven’t gone out on dates, have lived without male attention. I’m doing what I’m supposed to do, which is avoiding the assholes while doing my best to be nice and approachable, and so are many of my girlfriends.

    Just curious, when you say “doing my best to be nice and approachable” what exactly do you mean by that. What specific things have you done?

    One thing about college is there are a shit ton of activities and clubs. It really should NOT be hard for people who share similar interests and hobbies to meet. In my view, that is the ideal place for a girl to potentially meet a “decent” guy type who just isn’t after getting laid right away, and it provides a forum where a guy can potentially engage in conversation without getting shot down right away. But again, this type of action is likely to be “gina tingle” free at first and a friendship developing before anything romantic. So this requires the girl in this environment to not LJBF the guy right away, and at some point send some clear signals that maybe more is possible.

  • autumnpari

    @Mike,

    Okay. Point taken. But I still disagree with the cruelty and harshness. Really, I have never seen my peers behave that way towards other people right to their faces, no matter how unattractive or annoying the person is. We all gossip and talk behind each other’s backs but to be outright cruel to someone’s face? I haven’t seen that happen since early high school.
    **
    Well, I would really like to help my Beta guy friends out, but they never seem to listen to my advice. IDK what else to do. You’re right that a lot of people really like complaining but don’t do much about it.
    **
    Well, I’ve had leadership positions in a couple of clubs – yearbook and a cultural affinity group – and I’ve participated in other clubs as well. I go to parties, games, lectures, plays, dance performances, etc. I’ve performed in cultural events. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances, male and female. Since so many of my male friends are Betas, I am certainly not scaring them away. I also know a few Alphas but most of the guys I know are Betas. All I can chalk it up to is that guys must think it’s easier to attempt to play the hookup scene rather than try for a relationship. Because hooking up is pretty easy to do, especially since most people tend to hook up with others that are part of their friends’ circle or on the periphery of their friends circle. Another thing is that there are a couple of all women’s colleges near mine, which gives the guys in this area much more choice. Like I said, I don’t blame guys, I just find it personally frustrating.

  • Dilithium

    ap: But I still disagree with the cruelty and harshness. Really, I have never seen my peers behave that way towards other people right to their faces

    .

    I think this depends on what you think qualifies as “cruelty and harshness”. For example, if a girl blows off a guy’s advance with a transparently lame excuse, ie “No, I have to wash my hair that night”, you might not consider this “cruel and harsh” but I certainly would. It basically shows the guy that he and his feelings count for zero, and she feels she doesn’t even owe him the respect of telling the truth. You might think this a contrived example, but I believe that most rejections by women have this same essential element: even if it’s couched in nominally soft or neutral language — in many cases, overly polite language is effectively even more insulting and offensive — the message gets across that she has no more regard for him than a bug.

    .

    Here’s a good working definition: you’ve treated someone cruelly and/or harshly if (i) they come away feeling very bad, AND (ii) you could have delivered the same information in a way that didn’t cause that. Important point on (ii) is, it helps a great deal if you do actually, not just nominally, care about the other person’s feelings; but if you don’t then you probably can’t hide that fact. Just because your language looks “scrubbed” on paper doesn’t mean that you weren’t cruel; even body language alone can do the job, whatever words you’re speaking. So you might want to re-visit how realistic, or restrictive, you’re being in your judgement here.

  • Chantilly

    Dilithium, can you give an example of a compassionate way to turn someone down? I’m asking because I’m in that position right now where I am going to have to do it. I was going to make an excuse because I don’t like to confrontation or being thought of as a bitch, but I am not at all attracted to this person.

    Is, “thankyou for asking me but no, I would not be interested in going out with you” acceptable?

    It’s honest. But to me it sounds harsh and soul crushing.

    I’d rather lie and say, “I’m not looking to date right now”.

    That sounds nicer, but then if he sees me next month out with another guy he’ll know it’s a lie.

    Is there a “nice” way to turn a guy down AND be honest?

  • Esau

    Susan,

    .

    My comment here was specifically to refute the “good guys don’t show up” canard that you and so many other women can’t let go of. I can’t guarantee what’s happening among young people today, but I am certain that “good guys don’t show up” was categorically wrong — let me make that CATEGORICALLY WRONG — when I was that age. So, unless you’re willing to make the argument that there’s been a huge generational change in a short time, then I don’t want to keep hearing the “good guys don’t show up” canard. OK? Is that clear? It’s wrong, and I don’t want to keep hearing it. We did show up, and your constantly implying the contrary is just insulting and dehumanizing.

    .

    I’ll go into more detail about what happened, gynonormativity, what should or should not reasonably count as “poor delivery”. But that’s for another post. Right now, I just want to make one point without distractions: the “good guys don’t show up” canard is WRONG, and I don’t want to keep hearing it.

  • Sox

    I can’t guarantee what’s happening among young people today, but I am certain that “good guys don’t show up” was categorically wrong — let me make that CATEGORICALLY WRONG — when I was that age.

    .
    QFT! Many complain about the reductionist nature of the alpha/beta divide here- this only perpetuates it. It also ignores the hypergamy effect. It’s an attempt to rationalize why these men aren’t on your radars, and it’d make perfect sense if it wasn’t completely false ;)
    .
    It’s not simply about demonstrating interest either. Many alpha types are openly DISinterested in the girls who flirt with them the most. Sure, both parties may know it’s a part of the game, but it torpedoes the idea that all good men need to do is step up and talk/ask women out more. Maybe they should demonstrate even less interest? Most guys I knew in college had absolutely no problem signaling their interest.
    .
    A very common theme I’ve seen has been of “selective obliviousness”. It blows my mind to see a member the more affluent, socially aware sex adamantly deny a man’s feelings for her when they’re blatantly obvious. I’ve seen this play out with male friends of girls I’ve dated. I’ve seen it with my friends. I’m not sure what’s behind this and would love to hear some female commenters’ opinions. My theory is that it’s a way of avoiding being responsible/having to deliver an awkward rejection. Maybe some women like the attention and don’t want to lose it. Maybe they don’t want to admit that a man wants more than just friends, because she’s just not interested. BTW I think men do this too, especially in FwB situations. However as a guy I actually have been legitimately oblivious at times because I admittedly suck at picking up on subtle hints.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Esau,
    “Good guys don’t show up” is not an objective statement of fact. It’s a perception, which means that for some women, it’s reality. I’m sure you’re right that in some cases, women are chasing alpha jerks, and all other men are invisible to them. That’s the “canard” you abhor.
    But that’s definitely not the whole story, and you know it. The first thing we need to do is define “showing up.” Being present in the same classes? On the same campus? Should we expect men to approach? Should women expect more than poor and inept delivery?
    Many “good” men are not showing up in the sense that they are not getting onto the radar screen.
    I often ask you what you would suggest as a practical solution to this problem, and I don’t believe you’ve ever answered that question. You tend to define it as a problem for women, and one that they can solve. I’ll agree with the former, but am not sure what strategy you’re recommending to address it, other than “start being attracted to different men.”
    And what is the responsibility of men? Do they have agency? How can they improve their results with women?
    Until you address that piece – the responsibility that every person has for his or her own happiness, then I’m afraid you’re bound to keep hearing the same things from women. Show us a different way of looking at this – we’re all ears.

  • Sox

    Oops, correction to my last post- “affluent” should be “observant”.
    .
    @Susan

    And what is the responsibility of men? Do they have agency? How can they improve their results with women?

    It’s up to men to understand that they’re not on women’s radars and make the necessary adjustments. Or opt out. Or look for a woman whose radar they ARE on. The last option will probably be difficult without settling for a woman a few points below him in SMV. So option 3 essentially means, “lower your standards” which I dont’ see happening on a macro level.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Sox

    It’s up to men to understand that they’re not on women’s radars and make the necessary adjustments. Or opt out. Or look for a woman whose radar they ARE on.

    Thank you. I’m pretty sure that’s more than Esau will be willing to say.
    One other thing – I understand that emotions run high on this topic. I don’t take any of this discussion personally. However, I urge the men, especially those who are well out of college, to consider that many of the young women writing here are trying to figure this out. They don’t know what female hypergamy is. They just know what makes them wet. And they don’t deserve a dressing down for asking the questions that women ask. Indeed, the women who comment here deserve credit for earnestly trying to understand their own behavior as well as the behavior of the guys around them.

  • Dilithium

    Chantilly — I’m heartened that you’re asking this question, and so am chagrined that I might not have much useful to advise (on the other hand, if I did then I’d probably try to charge for it). But here are a few points to keep in mind.

    .

    In situations like dumping or rejecting someone, I think it’s useful to imagine there being a certain, fixed, irreducible amount of hurt/pain to be delivered; the question is, are you going to force it all onto the other person, or accept some on yourself? (Note, you don’t have any moral obligation, I don’t think, to accept pain following an interaction that was purely initiated by someone else; but, it can still be the right thing to do.) Trying to look “nice” and inoffensive in a rejection can really be a way of using your leverage to preserve a positive image for yourself, which is cruel because your self-image comes at the other person’s expense. Another way to think is in terms of standing; is there a way to reject someone that still leaves them with some standing and self-respect? So, for whatever strategy you might come up with for a better way to reject someone, you can test it with these two questions: (i) Does it involve me taking on at least some blame/pain/discomfort? and (ii) Does it result in the other person still preserving some self-respect? If you can say yes to both, then you may be on the right track to compassion.

    .

    There’s a profound clue for you in what you wrote: ” I don’t like to confrontation or being thought of as a bitch”. Well, why not? Why don’t you like those things? How do they harm you or cause you pain? If, to quote Thomas Jefferson, they neither pick your pocket nor break your leg, then what’s the problem?

    .

    Clues can also be found in figuring out exactly why to avoid some approaches that you already know from experience are bad. For example, the well-used “I’m sure some other girl will be lucky to have you”, in its many variations, is essentially always bad, ie it may look like some sort of compliment but in reality it always comes across as harsh and cruel. Why? Because it’s highly judgmental, and so sets you up as the all-knowing judge of what’s best for everyone, including yourself, the guy, and this imagined other girl; and in setting yourself up as the superior judge you’re claiming a great deal of standing, and so naturally reducing the other person’s standing. Does this make sense?

    .

    Last note: being honest is generally a good tool for you. You’ve already mentioned that you’d rather lie to avoid pain; but, by the criteria mentioned above this directly suggests that being honest is a good approach, if you want to be compassionate, just from the fact that it would make you uncomfortable. More importantly, honesty is good because honest connotes respect, and respect helps preserve the other person’s standing. Consider that as an opening, in fact, saying “I respect you, and so I’m just going to tell you the straight truth.” Right away it sort of sets the two of you up as equals, in that you’re not acting superior and not using your leverage to preserve a pleasant self-image. At a minimum, anyway, it might be a refreshing change of pace for him.

    .

    Hope this is helpful; at least, it’s worth the price. (I really should start charging soon.)

  • Sox

    Chantilly,
    How would you want to be rejected, if the roles were reversed? I would imagine you’d want a straight, fairly honest rejection instead of a platitude that insults your intelligence.

  • Dilithium

    Susan: “It is not plausible, much less reasonable, to ask women to see beyond poor and inept delivery.”

    .

    Umm, why not? Is it really beyond women’s capabilities to see beyond the surface of inept delivery to the core of other, good qualities beneath? If a woman doesn’t want to be lonely, and also doesn’t want to waste her time on smooth-talking charlatans, then isn’t “seeing beyond poor and inept delivery” exactly what she should be putting her energy into? You don’t seem to be giving women very much credit here, it seems to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dilithium

      Is it really beyond women’s capabilities to see beyond the surface of inept delivery to the core of other, good qualities beneath?

      It depends. In a situation where the two are in proximity, a woman is more likely to have attraction grow as she discovers other, good qualities. (There is a lot of research on this btw – how proximity leads to sexual attraction. That’s why couples get together even in tiny rural high schools. Having lots of choice actually works against relationships.) However, in a situation where the two are meeting for the first and possibly only time, then it’s unlikely a woman will see past inept delivery because she has no knowledge of his other qualities. She will see his ineptitude as a proxy for his belief that he doesn’t deserve her. This is why I encourage women to get involved in things that require regular attendance and seeing the same people repeatedly. And it’s also why very few happy couplings originate in bars – for obvious reasons, the men who avoid commitment excel in those settings.

  • Sox

    @Susan

    The problem is when we start looking at the “how” and “why” when it comes to men having to adapt and “show up” at all…then we’re right back at all those uncomfortable truths that male commenters often have a hard time delivering sans bitterness and/or judgment.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    @Susan
    Women do have the ability to make their own choices. Sometimes they fail to make good choices, when impulse overrides reason. Other times they lack good information from which to draw. Either way, I support holding everyone, regardless of sex, responsible for their own choices.
    .
    Thanks Susan! Very well put. I would add that since many operate under the assumption that women don’t have moral agency that this can lead to the very lack of information you reference. We don’t expect women to make good choices, so we don’t hold them accountable and we don’t warn them of the risks.
    .
    When any of us do something poorly or ineptly, we should not expect a successful result. We should expect failure. From that we may learn how to do things better. It is not plausible, much less reasonable, to ask women to see beyond poor and inept delivery.
    .
    This is perfect advice for men, and is roughly what I will tell my son when he is old enough. For my daughter however I’ll point out that plenty of other women are capable of looking past poor initial delivery to find high quality guys. The problem with the guy who is so smooth that every woman wants him, is that while you are together his chances of cheating are exponentially higher than a less flashy guy. This is probably a combination of opportunity, personality type, and previous partner count. This is one reason I don’t argue with the definition of alpha on my blog. Roissy’s definition bears a very close resemblance to what many young women mistake for the best men.
    .
    If I might make an analogy, it is not unlike buying a new car. Do you buy the one with the best commercials and smoothest sales guy like your emotional side says you should buy? Or do you do your homework and think it through, checking out some models which don’t get the most add time in case you might find a diamond in the rough? But if I were talking to an executive who wanted to sell more cars I would still tell him he needs to hire more smooth sales guys and buy more ad space.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dalrock

      This is perfect advice for men, and is roughly what I will tell my son when he is old enough. For my daughter however I’ll point out that plenty of other women are capable of looking past poor initial delivery to find high quality guys.

      I like this – I think this might satisfy the other guys too.

  • Chantilly

    “Is it really beyond women’s capabilities to see beyond the surface of inept delivery to the core of other, good qualities beneath?”

    No. Is it really beyond MEN’S capabilities to see beyond the surface of PHYSICAL BEAUTY to the core of other, good qualities beneath?

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt, even emotionally damaged by him. I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man – with his skill, and absence of conscience or empathy, he will play a woman hard before she even knows what hit her.

    The way to avoid is to be a relationship only girl who doesn’t put out quickly. I.e. a good girl. That may not completely prevent all such cases esp. for really hot looking girls, 8’s on up, who the player I type may actually contemplate having a committed relationship with, without really doing so, but it cuts the odds a lot.

    As well I think most of the girls doing most of the hooking up and 7s (pretty) 6’s (cute) and 5s (plain; kinda cute), who can basically only get solid alphas or lesser alphas by hooking up with them. Sure some 8s and 9s go the hook up route too but a lot smaller percentage I think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The way to avoid is to be a relationship only girl who doesn’t put out quickly. I.e. a good girl.

      Agree 100%. That’s hard for college women for the reason that making that choice often means sitting it out without much male attention for four years. Also, I agree that extremely good looking women are most likely to pursue this strategy. They forfeit that scene because they are secure in their looks and figure they’ll do better once they’re out of school and can have access to older guys. The women who are less confident of their attractiveness are more likely to take a “now or never” approach – they suspect the real reason they’re getting attention from guys, but they are first relieved, and then dependent, on that kind of validation.

  • Doug1

    The main reason Monica Lewinski was ridiculed by all and sundry is that she blew up like a sea lion when the scandal was brewing and then broke. When she first got with the President she wasn’t fat. There’s a picture of her wearing a beret in a receiving line giving him and especially adoring smile from early in their sexual tryst. If she’d stayed like that, sure lots of conservative values people would be down on her but she’d also have a considerable chorus of “you go girl” supporters. And attractive males after her too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1
      That pic of ML in the beret is adorable. I recall that women everywhere tried to get a Roots beret after that. She was always a voluptuous type – I suspect she was basically starving herself at that point. I haven’t seen a photo of her in years – she’d be in her late 30s now. I wonder what became of her.

  • Charles

    Kind of a one sided argument you know. Guys just want to hook up with a girl to brag about it. True, having companionship from a pretty lady boosts the man’s pride, as it should. What about the guy who really cares for the girl and never gets her. I rest my case.

  • Liz

    Women who withhold sex for some time in a relationship (okay, I admit I’m not one of them): is it really hard these days to find a man who’s willing to wait for you? Do virtually all men just want sex? Will they simply ignore you if they think you’re not available for immediate sex since they can always get it elsewhere?

    Or is this true of the “Player” types but not of the nice guys, and the nice guys aren’t getting a look in with women who want to reserve sex for a long-term relationship?

    Still, is this other women’s experience? That it’s virtually impossible to find a man who’ll wait and doesn’t just want sex?

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  • Pink

    I am realizing just how mean spirited and dismissive people can be. Can’t wait to finally get plastic surgery and stop being the ugly girl everyone is embarrassed to be seen with. Tired of happiness passing me by and pity comments from friends and family. I am active, get out, socialize, but sick of being alone after dates that end in a see ya later. It’s terribly lonely not even being kissed, hugged, or acknowledged as female. After surgery I hope to finally connect, and hold my head up for once. Beauty sucks, but she rules almost Everything about a womans right to happiness, love, respect, and perception.