It’s been expressed by numerous women here, most recently by Sara, the writer of the letter in yesterday’s post, that sitting out the casual sex scene in college means getting very little male attention. She said:
Guys I feel no attraction to creepily hitting on me constantly simply trying to sleep with me that night, I don’t think I will meet a truly nice guy at a bar or a party…At this point, I think I will be waiting until after graduation to really meet the guys I even want to date at all. I am fine with it, but it is hard to choose that road when all of your friends are dating and crushing on boys, and it does get lonely. I know that choosing this road I will be stronger in the long run, but I often-times feel left out of the whole thing.
Sara is not alone; her feelings are typical of many young women in college who want a relationship, not a random hookup. It’s not surprising that many frustrated young women wind up dropping panties while drunk, hoping for the best, just to be included, part of the scene, having a normal college experience.
What many women fail to realize is that being “chosen” by a guy for the purpose of hooking up says little about her worth, or her attractiveness relative to her peers, even in his eyes. Men’s standards for hooking up are extremely low, as they will readily admit.
Consider the following question I came across on a guy’s poker forum two days ago. The writer is apparently a college hockey player. It’s not pretty, but it’s an interesting peek behind closed doors.
Here’s how guys really feel about the girls they hook up with:
From: BigEarn
HOW BAD IS THIS, HOOKUP WISE?
So I have always prided myself on having standards. I haven’t had a gf in years but I like to think that I consistently hook up with 7s or so on a pretty regular basis.
Anyways, lately I have been hooking up with this girl whose probably like a 5.5-6 but we only hookup when I am completely hammered and if nothing else pans out for me during the night. Is this ok? Should I stop this? I wouldn’t want people to see me out with this girl, shes tall,skinny, decent body but her face is kind of a disaster. She has summer-teeth… Some go this way, some go that way. (Pauly D – Jersey Shore reference). Her performance in bed is definitely solid but I think I need to just delete her number.
I’m looking for some thoughts on the situation here.
Ouch. The responses:
1. do we even have to say?
2. seriously wtf is your problem. pics or stfu/gtfo etc
3.
4. standards are for high schoolers
5. Beauty is a lightswitch away
6. If you arent trying to marry the girl and she knows that then who gives a fuck?
7. Plan B:
8. ewwww a 5.5-6?? if she was 6-6.5 I’d say mayyyyybe, but anything below a 6.75-8.2384 I say gtfo you ugly whorebitch.
9. keep on banging, justify it as << giving back to humanity>>
10. If you both understand this is drunken weekend happy time and you’re not involved….And you think it’s better than rubbing one out….And she thinks it’s better than rubbing one out….Then who fucking cares?
11. If she’s a 5 then I bet 90% of us would hit it
BigEarn responds:
Eh, I clearly said this one wasn’t hot and I bang 7s or so, not claiming to be tagging supermodels here. I make these posts because i’m sure most of you have been in similar situations and I like to hear what others have to say. I guess I just enjoy giving advice/responding to posts like this because quite frankly I find women and dealing with them very interesting.
I’m not insecure but I do get some self-satisfaction out of trying to work new girls, but then again who doesn’t? As I’ve posted in the past (years ago) my one real relationship was a complete disaster and I ended up heartbroken and after that hurt finally went away I guess i’m just a lot wiser and somewhat jaded when it comes to females.
If you didn’t already know, now you do. Clear eyes, full hearts, can’t lose.
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Ouch, that hurts.
My daughter goes to college next year.
MuleChewingBriars´s last [type] ..Mere Ideology- The politicisation of CS Lewis
LOL #5 lightswitch. That’s funny right there.
I’m sorry, I’m not helping am I. Bad man, bad bad man.
However I’m not sure it matters whether the homely woman puts out or not, they despise her anyway because she has low Sex Rank.
Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life´s last [type] ..Only Boys Have Mojo
@Athol Kay
So does that mean a woman with low sex rank might as well put out? What is she to do?
I think it’s two separate sorts of male disgust at work here. The first is at lack of physical beauty. The second is at being a slut.
If she “puts out”, she just gets a double dose of digust.
If she’s a 5 the solution is to find a male 5 that she gets on well with and live happily ever after and raise a whole mess of little 5′s together.
If she turns into a slut she just turns into a 4 or a 3 depending on how much she allows herself to be used up. Then when she’s hitting the wall at 35 she’s trying to find a 4 or a 3 to settle with.
Unless of course she can entrap something higher than a 5 early on with a pregnancy or something. But then most hot guys are wise to that anyway. And yes I said and meant “entrap”.
Anyway, it’s only the peanut gallery that’s really screaming about how ugly a 5 is. Isn’t that a pretty much average looking woman without make up yada yada yada? I mean some of these idiots rate “omg I came in my pants hot” movie stars like 8′s. Put down the porn guys, go outside… meet an actual woman.
Maximise beauty and don’t give it away. It’s not really that hard of a strategy is it?
Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life´s last [type] ..Only Boys Have Mojo
what a repulsive individual the guy in the article is
is it ethical for me to pray for early onset male pattern baldness for him?
hell, why not throw a bout of impotence in for good measure
just to take him down a peg
i count myslef lucky i have avoided jerks like this on the whole.
Actually if you really want to give girls greater leverage in the dating marketplace, tell them to work on getting hotter looking. A 5 that works her tummy off and dresses better yada yada yada and become a 7 is going to have a much better time of things.
Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life´s last [type] ..Only Boys Have Mojo
One of the main reasons I’m not a sex possie, is their validation of ANY reason for having sex. Men basically have four reasons we do it… three of them good and one bad.” Can’t find anyone else tonight” is the bad one.
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BigEarn is a type 1 player (You can tell from the nickname), but is becoming uncomfortable with his behavior. That’s a good thing. Hopefully he can soon turn the corner and start his journey towards becoming a type 4 player.
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Drawing the line at desperate/compulsive “I wouldn’t want people to see me out with this girl” sex. is the first step. The next is never having sex with someone with whom he doesn’t intend to revisit. (It keeps her LTR value up, and his cost down). It is also obvious that BigEarn has not mastered sexual inertia yet. If he is scoring 7′s regularly, he should be asking why he is so often without options, save his tall, skinny safety net.
@Athol
Seriously laughing my ass off at the idea of raising a passel of little 5s. Awwww.
I’m totally with you on the ridiculous standards dudes online are holding. I’ve seen threads where guys say they wouldn’t even consider having sex with Megan Fox. Yeah, right. Same guys would probably do cartwheels for Barbara Streisand (ew).
@Jess
Baldness, impotence, I’m all for it. Let’s throw in some nasty genital rashes for good measure. Truth is, this guy is not unusual – nor are the commenters. This is standard. Women need to realize how they’re discussed the morning after. The 5 referred to here probably thinks she’s about to get a commitment – after all, they’ve hooked up a few weekends in a row, and there doesn’t seem to be another girl on the scene…
Hello everyone. I’m in the early stages of football preseason right now. 8 practices done, just 20 more to go. It kind of sucks(my life is eat, football, eat, football, eat, football, then sleep, in that order, then repeat the next day), but being back in the locker room has given me some serious insight into this particular topic: male views on casual hookups vs. committed partners.
Guys like to tell stories in their locker rooms. Often times, these stories involve girls they’ve recently hooked up with. Since we’re all overly horny 18-22 year old men, naturally we get very intrigued by these tales of bedroom conquest. At times, though, the girls are just objects of ridicule and disgust.
A recent story I heard was about another female athlete on campus and the hookups she had with one of my teammates. Apparently, she was “a squirter” and a few of my other teammates walked through the room accidentally while they were doing the business. Their derision was obvious. They called her nasty, disgusting, and wondered why my teammate even bothered(she’s pretty much a solid 5.5 or 6). There was no respect. I am somewhat acquainted with this girl, and she seems to be a pretty decent person overall. I wonder what she would think if she knew even half of the things that were said about her. it’s kind of sad, really.
Another story involved a senior frat brother on my team and an older girl on campus who I don’t know. He talked about how he hooked up with her(the way he described her was nothing more than how one would describe some sort of sex toy, just a tool really). He went on and on about it, saying “yeah , i met her, we hooked up a few times, I called her and she was available so whatever” etc, etc. Then he described how desperate she was to get him “hard” one time, so much so that she said “what can I do?” He asked for a rimjob and got it.
This story regarding this girl, btw, was told to the ENTIRE FOOTBALL TEAM ASSEMBLED IN THE MEETING ROOM. All 120 or so males on the team heard every detail. He tried to withhold the name, but I guarantee that’s been released by now to(other people saw him with her some nights and they’ll tell when probed). Everyone in the room broke out in hysterical laughter. When that girl’s name finally finishes making the rounds, she will be blacklisted as nothing more than a last resort beer-goggle piece of tail. That’s the truth, sad as it is, because everytime guys see her they will remember that story.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg, btw, as every weekend brings at least one new good story. Honestly, these stories give me some new found respect for the girls who avoid hooking up. They don’t want to be humiliated and called names behind their backs, and I can sort of understand that.
Now, compare this to my knowledge regarding girls who are officially involved romantically (read: dating) some of my teammates.
I can’t tell you anything about them. I have no idea if they are/were “squirters”. I don’t know how adventurous they are in bed. None of those details are available as general, easily attainable gossip. Why?
The guys respect these girls more because of increased emotional investment. They would NEVER sit at a lunch table and gossip about what their girlfriend did with them in bed last night after the party, or talk openly about her flaws/imperfections or anything like that. They would certainly NEVER openly announce their girlfriend’s most intimate experiences to an assembled group of 100+ horny male teenagers.
Judging from what I see from my teammates, only their closest friends(4 or 5 members of their “clique” who talk regularly and often) will know anything, and those guys won’t spread it around much either. Why? They respect that guy and they respect that girl by extension. Unless she does something completely out of left field(like randomly cheat on him with like 4 or 5 guys one night and embarrass him socially), they will always uphold that respect, even after the relationship ends. If you try and get this type of information out of a guy regarding his girlfriend, he’ll get mad at you and you will lose social cred amongst him and his friends.
It won’t matter what she looks like either. If she’s a 5, guys might say “yeah, she is kind of average looking” behind her boyfriends back, but they won’t blatantly insult her and call her “disgusting” or “mannish” unless she already has a prior history and there are well known “stories” already available about her.
Girls should understand clearly that this derision of “sluthood” amongst guys is real and alive. They might enjoy screwing girls who quickly hook up with them and they will do so often just to get their jollies off. But when a girl enters into that agreement, she opens herself up to public ridicule amongst many of her hookup’s friends, and that information will spread quickly. Your intimate details(how your naked body looks, how you perform in bed, weird habits you have, grooming details, etc, etc) will be made public, and many guys you don’t even know or like will be fully aware of them. Guys you like and may want to date later will know to, and if they find out you gave their buddy a hasty rimjob it WILL color their perception of you. When you decide to operate outside of the confines of a relationship, you forfeit many of the more stabilizing qualities they provide. People who have no emotional investment in you beyond getting their rocks off won’t care about your feelings, your right to privacy, your social standing and your sensitivity. You will be a piece of ass, good only for hanging out with in frat basements and only worth paying attention to when the party is over and he is horny.
If you’re ok with that, then go ahead and keep hooking up. Just be ready for the fallout. Don’t complain about it later.
Streetwalkers don’t even do rimjobs. Holy crap. Change colleges and start over. Seriously. OMG.
Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life´s last [type] ..Only Boys Have Mojo
@Athol: yeah, and this is at an Ivy where girls are relatively more reserved and the partying is much more restrained. Imagine what its like and your average state school.
Stories like that wouldn’t even register at Florida or Alabama, or even Albany State(NY). Its child’s play.
So does that mean a woman with low sex rank might as well put out? What is she to do?
Go for a low sex rank guy as a partner?
@Athlone McGinnis: Your story doesn’t shock me in the slightest. Since trying to “reform” myself from the hook-up scene i’ve ended up at many parties with my guy acquaintances / male friends and the stories they have shared with me have blown my mind with disgust. I call it “boys club” as when the boys get together they are just that “the boys”. Of course though they don’t disrespect their significant others who they are officially dating but to all the girls they have hooked up with and had sexual relations with outside of this they are just plain ruthless.
One party in particular I was with a few of these guys and a girl came up to talk to one of them expressing that she enjoyed the other night and was like eluding that they should meet up later tonight. He was very lovely to her face you know saying all the right things, introduced us all to her, had her arm around her etc (I was even under the impression that they were boyfriend and girlfriend) – although as soon as she left he started with the all the charming disrespectful facts about her. I mean I just listen to them talk I have never given my opinion that I think they are acting like pigs – I don’t like using the term but it’s like they are suffering from the whole Madonna Whore syndrome. Because then they start talking about the girl they do in fact like that they see as out of their reach (I’m assuming because she won’t jump into bed with them straight off the bat) as though she is on a pedestal and asking me for advice.
In saying all this I know personally with my group of girlfriends we can be rather ruthless and share intimate details about guys we’ve hooked up with in rather derogatory ways too. As a way of shaming them. I know for a while in my last years flat we had a wall of shame for all the boys that left the flat on Friday and Sunday mornings.
I’m not proud of this but I think it goes to show that females can be just as nasty as males when it comes to showing disrespect for “slutty” behaviour. But also similar when it comes to committed relationships – as we all become very tight lipped with the intimate details when we are dating a guy seriously or official with him.
Truth is, this guy is not unusual – nor are the commenters. This is standard. Women need to realize how they’re discussed the morning after.
Oh yes. I often think most women who are “conquests” of “player” types must be absolutely clueless about how they get discussed with “his boyz” later. I think most would be horrified. The stuff above is pretty tame actually compared to stuff I heard back when I was bouncing, and from the “player” I work with.
Then he described how desperate she was to get him “hard” one time, so much so that she said “what can I do?” He asked for a rimjob and got it.
There is a subset of the Player 3 category, maybe another category onto itself, and again I’m familiar with this due to my time bouncing and associating with those guys. There are guys that enjoy/get off on the power trip of seeing just how far they take a girl in terms of sexual degradation. I could tell you some just crazy stuff, I mean just f’en crazy. Combine super-alpha with no morals whatsoever, and a low self-esteem girl wanting to please and the result isn’t pretty.
Girls should understand clearly that this derision of “sluthood” amongst guys is real and alive.
We just need reeducation camps for all men to learn the proper respect for ALL women including those who allow themselves to be used like tissue paper for jacking off.
Here is my idea. At age 12-13, all men will be forcibly removed from their households, and sent to SPF sex reeducation camps led by Amanda Marcotte. There they will take female hormones to reduce the effects of rising testosterone, and will attend day long classes to understand female “empowerment”. They will not be allowed to rejoin society or their family until they have proven their complete devotion to this ideal.
The comments are pretty benign. Sure, they are phrased in rough guy humor, but most of them boils down to “if you’re both ok with it, go ahead”, with the implication that if he’s driving the girls to tears he should back off. The other responses are clearly intended for chuckles, rather than serious advice.
I don’t really see a problem with anything the guy who asked the question did either. He’s treated her like crap, won’t be seen in public with her and only contacts her for sex when he’s drunk. Without outright stating that she’s too ugly for a relationship that’s about as clear as he can be.
@Athlone McGinnis: I agree completely with you. I have a few good guy mates who have talked to me and my set of girlfriends about their sexual conquests in ways that make me cringe.. Not just because of the derogatory ways in which they are talking about these women they have hooked-up with but just the thought that I have most likely been discussed in this exact way to someone else too.
However I’m going to add a point that I think girls can be just as ruthless with the way we disrespect guys we’ve hooked-up with casually too. My set of flat mates in particular last year (flat of 5 girls and 1 boy) had a wall of shame for a few months of photographs of all the conquests that left the house over that period. I’m not proud about admitting this. I didn’t personally have any myself on the wall – I was usually the photographer!
And I will agree for both sexes though that when committed, mutually respectful relationships are involved the talk for dirty, intimate secrets are slim to none. No of my girlfriends or guy mates talk about their girlfriends or boyfriends sexual prowess or sexual preferences. Maybe to close close friends but even then no one shares.
I guess it just shows how little respect is shown in amongst the hooking-up scene – for girls and guys.
@Athlone
Wow, your comment is actually a huge gift. You’ve singlehandedly given us a real-time look inside the locker room of an Ivy football team. I’m tempted to make it a post so that no reader misses it. I especially appreciate your taking the time to share it with us when I know you are incredibly busy with football.
To be honest, your description goes beyond anything I would have expected, which just makes it all the more important. Women need to know what’s up.
This is where the Sexual Revolution really shifted female behavior. The woman discussed by BigEarn has learned (or so she believes) that she can succeed in bedding a college hockey player who has a history of hooking up with attractive women. She eagerly joins the ranks of these women, having no idea that he is grossed out by her teeth and on the brink of deleting her number – without any intention to communicate the end of whatever it is they are doing. When he does do this, she will not learn that he found her unattractive. She will hook up next with a teammate of his, perhaps, and will feel special once again that she has attracted a high status varsity athlete. The teammate will also find her unattractive, but he knows he won’t catch too much shit for hooking up with her, since his buddy has already stooped this low. And so she drifts further and further away from reality. This is how female hypergamy is hurting women, but they have no idea. I can guarantee this girl would be stunned and devastated to learn how she is really viewed.
I have a really dumb question, but one I’ve always wondered about.
What’s to prevent someone from falsely claiming they got with so-and-so, and so-and-so was nasty, degraded, and did, X, Y, and Z, and a rimjob etc.? When in reality so-and-so is fat, pockmarked, knows it, and stays in the library?
When I was in college there was a cute girl on a sports team who was deaf and had a speech impediment. That’s all it took. A group of other girls would call guys on the phone and pretend to be her, asking guys out with a fake speech impediment that sounded like the deaf girl. There was no obnoxious behavior that the deaf girl did that made it a revenge thing or anything. These girls just liked posing as that deaf girl calling guys and asking them out on the phone.
Sometimes even in college, groups take out against someone who hasn’t done anything and all that person has done is not be beautiful or not speak perfectly. It’s up to the listeners to figure it out. But do the listeners call bullshit or believe everything that’s said even when stories are made up?
What’s to prevent a group of 100 athletes from beliving Sally Mouseburger in the library gave an athlete a rimjob etc.?
Unless there is a guy or guys in the group who will stand up and say No way and ostracize the liar.
Is there anything in the “Code” that says you don’t tell that kind of story when it didn’t really happen?
Sorry so paranoid. I guess the deal is if you are beautiful enough you don’t have to worry, stories will not stick. But does it do any good to not hook up, if stories can be told that you did anyway…and believed?
Sorry so dumb.
I’ve known women who were taken in by guys like this, and they didn’t even have low self-esteem, as far as I could tell. Winding up in the crosshairs of such a guy is terrible luck – it’s almost like having a hurricane sweep through your life. Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt, even emotionally damaged by him. I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man – with his skill, and absence of conscience or empathy, he will play a woman hard before she even knows what hit her.
@Mike
Haha, I was actually thinking of Marcotte when writing this post. Her denial that hookup culture exists, her refusal to acknowledge what sluthood does to women, her belief that the sexual double standard should be eradicated via indoctrination all had me shaking my head. I didn’t want to make the post about her or feminism in any way, but I’m glad you made this point. It’s very relevant.
I agree that the guy in the post is disgusting, and so is any guy who talks derisively of his conquests. And I realize that guys do this and girls need to know it. However, regarding the rim job and others saying they’ve heard crazy things… Could it be that the guys telling these stories are exaggerating just a little bit?
I would rather go live alone in a mud hut in South America and have to catch my own fish and forage for my own berries braving the many and varied dangers of the rainforest than have a team of football players critique my naked body and my performance in bed amongst themselves. No hyperbole.
As far as closed-mouthed behavior goes, I think people in relationships are generally given their privacy – until the relationship is over. If it ends badly or you’ve been paired with someone immature or vindictive, all bets are off. The heart of the matter is you have to be careful in selecting the people with whom you will be the most vulnerable and open.
In contrast to the above, I had a young man (mid-twenties, attractive, squeaky clean looking) offer me his seat at a parents’ meeting I showed up late to last night. I don’t know if it’s related, but I had a full-length dress on and my hair was put up. I declined, by the way. He’d gotten there on time and was entitled to his chair.
grerp´s last [type] ..Anecdotes on women in math and science
@JRF
Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. Lest you mistake my intent in writing this post, let me make it clear that I don’t really have a problem with BigEarn or any of the commenters. I too thought the comments were funny – I especially loved the pic of the guy pushing a woman down the stairs. The message here is that women need to understand that when they’re hooking up with a guy for kicks, they can’t expect respect, and won’t get it. This is how guys talk among themselves, and women need to understand it. Because I can guarantee you that the woman who is the subject of this thread would not find these comments benign, especially the original question from BigEarn.
Do I feel sorry for her? Well, she’s made choices and she’s about to learn the consequences of them. I feel empathy for any girl who learns this lesson the first time. If, however, she keeps on doing the same thing, or has done this before, then it’s caveat emptor.
@Snowdrop, @Anni
That’s a really good question, not a dumb one. Certainly online there’s a lot of posturing and fake story-telling that goes on. Some of the “field reports” I’ve read strain credulity based on the looks of the guy writing, in cases where his pic was available. But you raise a good question about locker room talk – there must be some exaggerating that goes on – it’s endemic to storytelling. Indeed, in yesterday’s post, Sara was upset that Joe had told everyone she’d given him a BJ when it wasn’t true. I’d be interested to hear what the guys think of this – what % to discount these stories?
Jess: what a repulsive individual the guy in the article is … i count myslef lucky i have avoided jerks like this on the whole.
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Good for you; but, is it luck or skill? or just plain common sense? Is it really that difficult to avoid such absolute assholes among men? Apparently it is:
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Susan: Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt,
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This doesn’t speak very well of women on the whole, if you ask me. The “argument from helplessness” pushes all the blame and all the responsibility onto the “super-villain” cad, while poor Nell is utterly powerless before his hypnotic gaze. Really, do you want to make the claim that women have no input at all in these cases? Also, does this make sense numerically? How many “super-villain” cads do there have to be in the world for the typical woman to have to worry about encountering one? Do you really think that even 5% of men have these super-villain powers?
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I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man
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Since I’m here to help, here’s a start: prioritize honesty and decency over charm, popularity and social proof. When I say “prioritize” I mean exactly that, put first things first. Don’t say that honesty would be nice but only if charm is already present; take honesty without charm first over the reverse. Sound difficult? Perhaps, but if you admit that you’re not willing to give up cocaine for vegetables then at least you know where you stand.
Susan — I think this post, and the comments, demonstrate really well why even though it’s true that most women can find SOMEONE to have sex with (unlike some percentage of men out there) it’s really not the great thing many guys seem to imagine it would be.
@Sasha It’s not a Madonna/Whore Complex… That implies that women are viewed as sexual OR relationship worthy… Essentially one or the other.
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In reality, the classifications are 1) Good enough for sex. And 2) Good enough for sex AND a committed relationship.
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I think a lot of girls assume that they’re in group 2 when they’re really in group 1.
Athlone,
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Thanks for sharing the story. As I also confirmed at a recent wedding, little has changed about the hookup culture. Too bad. I do urge you to be more than a journalist about the situation though i.e. do something. There are those that film people holding up help signs and then there are those that help people holding up help signs. Hopefully you are the latter. I don’t know where you are in the pecking order of your team/frat, but it’s important that you try to modify the kiss and tell dynamic of your club. It will save lots of women from heartache.
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Obviously you are in masculine, competitive atmosphere so you need to be careful about how you get your point across. Nevertheless your “boys” need to understand that “fighting outside of your weight class” so to speak, is a definite no no. Loudly give them -2 points for every “lowball” infraction and soon the behavior will decrease. When you start hearing “-2″ regularly screamed across the room at parties, then you know you’ve been successful. And besides isn’t it a lot more fun to get a “dime” to secretly toss your salad, than brag about some “nickel” you turned out.
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@Sasha
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I don’t know what country you are from, but in the U.S. men aren’t belittled for having sex, they are belittled for not having sex… and little dicks. A wall of male “shame” would get you laughed at and ridiculed for being a skank over here. What you call “conquest” we call “putting out”.
@ Grerp
Lady,
You need to be cloned!!!
@Mike
Here is my idea. At age 12-13, all men will be forcibly removed from their households, and sent to SPF sex reeducation camps led by Amanda Marcotte.
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Funny, funny stuff. You do realize though that from henceforth she will call you a “choad” and “wingnut” for such blasphemy???
A friend of mine has a little brother. Little brother is a campus alpha, football star, tall, good-looking, friendly and outgoing. See, little brother is the real deal: a good kid. Courteous, hard-working, generous, loves his family. He’s not used to women throwing themselves at him sexually mostly because he grew up in a very Catholic town. But he’s certainly not upset about the change in circumstances in college.
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Little brother shares some of his exploits with older brother.
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“Yeah, I’m pumped. Met this hot blond at [Irish bar] and she blew me in the bathroom.”
“Glad you’re having fun. Gonna see her again?”
“Maybe. But I’m not taking this one home to meet mom.”
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In an instant, that girl took herself out of LTR territory. She would *never* be the one brought to the family cookouts and introduced to grandma. She would forever be, to him anyway, “that blond who blew me in that bar.” Further, all his buddies who were with him know it too.
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Little brother has also been courting another girl. Yes, I said courting. This is the one who he takes to Red Sox games and asks his brother for advice on which restaurants to take her to. I’m willing to bet this one has not blown him in a bar bathroom. But it’s telling to me that big brother doesn’t know if she has or she hasn’t.
It’s a good question. The truth is that even alphas exaggerate a little. I think it depends on the guy. Most guys know not to exaggerate too much, or they let on when they are. But I think in general most of what you hear is real. Most of it. These days, alphas can just tell it like it is, and it’s often just incredible. You’d be surprised at the things (young) women are willing to do for men they’re attracted to…
And I’ve definitely heard girls talk shit about the guys they hook-up with, but I think the difference is that guys don’t care as much—unless he’s impotent or something. But most of the bashing I hear from girls is that their guy wasn’t a good lover and they didn’t orgasm—but when you’re just hooking up with a girl you don’t care about most guys don’t give a damn whether or not she came.
But really, I think guys need to think twice about telling these kinds of stories. It’s one thing to spout off on the Internet, but it’s another to tell it to an entire locker room. That’s amateurish. It’s my experience that you get more play if you are tight-lipped. My uncles were old-school player types and coming up one of the first rules I learned was not to kiss-and-tell. That’s a key lesson of harem management. I managed to have a fair amount of sex the first year of college (before settling down in a 3.5-yr relationship) and part of the reason is because I was lowkey about it. I’m sure I could’ve been labeled a “manwhore”…but hardly anyone knew. I was lucky because I learned from other men coming up, but I think a lot guys don’t have that so they just go with their (worst) instincts: burnishing their manhood with stories of their escapades. Not the best strategy if you want to keep the poon train running on time.
@Aldonza.
Two words. Monica Lewinsky.
She eventually had to move out of America.
@Esau
Fair enough, but the whole point is that a small percentage of men – probably less than 5%, actually, are so good at playing the part of an honest, decent, caring and empathic individual that they successfully hide their true character long enough that a woman has thoroughly been conned into falling for them. I can write post after post about red flags, and most men will give clues to poor character, or at least their unwillingness to commit. But there are some who will play the part of being everything a woman wants, only to dispose of her once he’s made the conquest. That’s why I said it’s terrible luck to be targeted by one of these guys – there’s very little one can do to defend oneself. These men would fit the extreme Player III profile – sociopathic.
Ellen, welcome! Thanks for joining the discussion. That’s a really good point – the value of the sex to the subject of this post is low to begin with, seeing as how it’s devoid of emotional connection, and she doesn’t even know how she’s being discussed. If she did, I’m sure she would be horrified and stop. She can only be as happy as her delusions will allow, and once they’re gone, she’ll crash.
@Kenny Powers
That right there explains about 80% of the misery arising from casual sex. Many women don’t even know they’re acting against their best interests. Ignorance is bliss, until they realize they never get the commitment.
Jealous.
@Aldonza
If Little Brother goes back on the market, I’d like to nominate a couple of young women to be next in line for courtship. Wow, you don’t hear much about courting anymore.
@grerp
I don’t know if it’s related either, but I bet a lot of the guys would say it is. If you’d shown up looking like a Cougar he probably wouldn’t have afforded you the same respect.
That’s what she gets for not swallowing like a good little Democrat.
“But there are some who will play the part of being everything a woman wants, only to dispose of her once he’s made the conquest.That’s why I said it’s terrible luck to be targeted by one of these guys – there’s very little one can do to defend oneself.”
Many of the male commenters on this site talk about how even if a girl hasn’t said anything about how many men she’s slept with, there are signs that make it clear she’s been promiscuous. In the same way, there are signs that point to douchebag manwhore behavior. It’s all about whether a woman is willing to see them. Ladies, trust your instincts: if you have doubts about a guy for any reason, don’t rationalize them away, just dump him. Even if there are no doubts, sometimes a simple background check is in order just in case. College is not an isolated environment. People know each other. Ask around. Even the most discreet of players leaves a trail. If no one seems to know who he is, that’s probably a good sign.
Oh, I’ve commented before, just, uh, not memorably.
It occurs to me that the sp feminists who love you so much, Susan, and the guy commenters here and elsewhere who firmly believe that, since guys would (apparently) be happy knowing that someone out there would be willing to have casual sex with them means that women, by definition, have it better, sort of make the same argument:
Guys value and aren’t (apparently) damaged by casual sex.
Most women could have all the casual sex they want, assuming they aren’t picky.
Men and women are the same, ergo, women are happy and casual sex is wonderful!
@dragnet
This fits perfectly with a recent post by Vincent Ignatius:
http://vincentignatius.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/on-the-down-low/
He actually talks about both the ethics and strategic benefit of helping girls preserve their reputations, even while they’re having casual sex.
I think it’s true that most players don’t care whether a woman comes or not, unless she has the network to talk about him as being bad in bed, which can affect his future prospects. Most hookup sex is bad for all parties in college, as it relies so heavily on alcohol, but I have heard tales of guys who went to great lengths to get their partners off as a matter of personal pride, and investment in their reputation as a skilled lover.
I’d to like to take this time to personally confirm that rock-ribbed Republican women swallow as well.
@Average Joe: To answer your question, no, I don’t have enough influence to do any of that. My teammates wouldn’t listen to me.
But let me specifically address this statement here: “It will save lots of women from heartache.”
Why should I care about their heartache? I’m not their father. I’m not here to protect them and their feelings. Girls don’t HAVE to degrade themselves like the girl in that story did. They don’t have to give everything to guys who have absolutely nothing good to say about them at all. They CHOOSE to. They are grown women and that is the decision they made.
I’ve tried hooking up and my awkward failure let me know it wasn’t for me. I like to court girls. I prefer to date them traditionally, I like to treat them like people, and if they have a father/older relative around I’ll probably ask for their permission to do the courting. That’s how I’ve approached dating so far in my life, and I’ve learned through MANY approaches and failures that this is not the approach girls today respond to.
I know with near complete certainty that had I approached the girl in the rimjob story respectfully I would have gotten shot down(or she would have run off to go down on the guy soon after I dropped her off from our date). Most young girls today don’t seem to want respect, and when they get it they don’t know what to do with it. Sometimes they’ll just respond by being disrespectful to you. I’ve had girls I’ve tried to date flat out say that they have no idea how to respond to me because I try to be decent to them, and they’ve “never dated a guy who is so nice”. They don’t understand why I want to take them on real dates and actually listen to what they have to say. They get perplexed, confused and in most cases turned off, and very soon after I’ll hear another story involving them and a hookup with some guy who could care less about them as human beings but is content to just get his rocks off.
They didn’t want me, but they went spread eagle for him. That’s their decision, and while I was frustrated and somewhat saddened(especially when I was younger), I’ve come to accept it. I’m not going to cushion their falls or be “the nice guy” who chastises the dudes they sleep with. I refuse to be the white knight in shining armor.
Now, I won’t change my behavior. I will never be Roissy or Roosh, the type of player with the ability to completely disconnect myself emotionally from girls I hook up with and treat them like sex dolls. I will never be quite as cynical as Roissy, nor will I ever vengefully turn to asshole game to either “get back” at girls or to just get my rocks off by “giving them what they ask for”, etc, etc. That’s not in my nature, and I accept that this choice will mean less sexual gratification for me.
My response so far has simply been more towards the leave-it-alone variety, whereby I just don’t bother talking to them or trying to date them. It’s safer for me to just ignore girls I like(and most of the others to) than to actually try and court them. I avoid embarrassment and still get to be myself and they avoid confusion and don’t have to waste time rejecting me later. Everyone wins(sort of).
But I’m not even going to blame other guys for taking different paths. If girls want respect, they must demand it.If trying to commit and be respectful continues to get guys rejected, then most will start avoiding it. If being a pricks and offering zero emotional investment continues to get guys laid, then they’ll continue to do it. They won’t stop until girls suddenly shut those types of guys off from sexual gratification and start DEMANDING to be treated differently. When men know that investing emotionally in a girl and courting her with at least some future promise of commitment is the ONLY way to gain sexual access, they’ll start treating girls with more respect(look back into history prior to the sexual revolution and you’ll find copious evidence for this).
Incentives drive behavior. Young men today have little incentive to commit and to respect the privacy of their female hookups, so they don’t do it. Until women create these incentives, things will remain the same. If they don’t do anything then there’s nothing I can do to change things, and I won’t waste my time trying.
A very good point. So much of what you hear from women—and other guys, unfortunately—on topics like these amounts to having good, decent, likely beta guys assume some responsibility for cleaning up the fallout that emanates from the poor decisionmaking of the women around them. In many ways, this dynamic is an appropriate metaphor for our society.
In my opinion, Athlone, the mentality you adopt here is important—probably even more than learning how to Game women. This is the first step toward establishing your value as man independent of the women around you and avoids the pitfalls that some guys (well, a few) fall into when learning Game: that increased success with women leads to an increased need of the validation that they can bring. Adopting this mentality without becoming bitter or angry at women is a really something to be proud of and will serve you well.
“If you’d shown up looking like a Cougar he probably wouldn’t have afforded you the same respect.”
.
but if you came dressed as an orangutang you would have had an offer of marriage
@Ellen
So you have. Forgive me. There was a time when I knew everyone’s name and comment history by heart – I guess I should probably admit it’s beyond me now. I still really welcome your input, and hope you’ll keep commenting.
.
It’s interesting that you mention the sp feminists – there’s a certain irony in their insisting that women aren’t built to want emotion with sex, even though they’re living it. I find that men mostly do understand that women generally want relationships, which is why players have gotten so good at avoiding them, disappearing when the question is bound to arise.
@Athlone
Exactly right. We can act horrified by players, but they’re getting considerable positive reinforcement from the women they play.
I can speak from experience that being in a committed relationships with guys who love you is very much protective against rumors and degredations of this kind. I’ve done some rather outlandish things in relationships, but the guys all still respected me because they knew that I’m “not that kind of girl” — that is, I wouldn’t do anything without love. It took them a long time of courtship before they even got to touch or kiss me.
Also, I behaved in a way that was entirely rumor-mill proof. I never smoked or drank, never partied, never went to bars or clubs, and never had a big social circle. I didn’t wear makeup, didn’t go out shopping or keep up with fashions, and never had tattoos or piercings. I was quiet, introverted, and I stayed out of the limelight. No strange man would look at me and suspect that I was even able to think about sex. Maybe this is the “madonna” image, but it was entirely my own personality to begin with, and people can tell it’s not fake.
One thing I must disagree with an above poster on; guys are also damaged by casual sex, even though such behavior is practically “lauded” by society. Athlone is making the right choice by not engaging in this kind of debauchery. Too much casual sex damages a man’s ability to really pair bond emotionally with a woman, just the same as it damages a woman’s ability to pair bond with a man.
Bedding so many random people demeans the physical act of making love in an intimate relationship, basically cheapening it to not much more than “just another penis or vagina.” I strongly believe that it’s best for men and women to save the act of sex for when love and genuine connection and commitment exist. Notice I didn’t say only marriage, because my grandparents who are in their 80s had an arranged marriage, and my grandfather cheated on my grandmother many times because there was simply no real love.
Two words. Monica Lewinsky. She eventually had to move out of America.
So sad. An attention hungry 21 year old from a broken home gets taken advantage of by the most powerful man in the Western World, and those few minutes of her life ruin the rest of it. Yeah, she was stupid, but stupid in a way that most girls get to forget about.
I agree with Athlone. If and when the demand for assholes eases, you will see fewer assholes. Address the demand. He should not have to protect women he doesn’t know from the consequences of their own behavior. That’s paternalism, and women everywhere have shaken off and excoriated patriarchy. With feeling.
I had to look up what a rimjob was and am now unhappy to have been enlightened.
grerp´s last [type] ..Anecdotes on women in math and science
@Susan
“@ Grerp
Lady,
You need to be cloned!!!
Jealous.”
LOL! And thanks for the compliment, Average Joe.
grerp´s last [type] ..Anecdotes on women in math and science
It is not hard to feel sorry for Monica Lewinsky given the total glare of the media spotlight on her bad choices. But let’s remember that Bill Clinton was 1) married and 2) President of the United States and therefore pretty high profile. Neither of these facts were or could be hidden from her. She chose to attempt her second rate man poaching.
The saddest part of the story is what young women took away from this: blow jobs aren’t really sex (but you’d better learn how to do them anyway). Instead of: when a famous married man old enough to be your father offers you nothing in exchange for prostituting yourself, decline.
grerp´s last [type] ..Anecdotes on women in math and science
I feel like a lot of girls do know how they’re perceived by men when they’re hooking up. But they seem to not care or maybe they feel like not being part of the hookup scene isn’t a choice. I think one part of the problem is that a lot of girls I see simply don’t know how to say “no.” I’m not sure why that is, and it goes from simple things, like declining an offer to hang out when it’s finals time all the way to hooking up with a guy. Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively. And if they were able to do that, it would solve a lot of the problems, I think, because guys know how to take advantage of the gray, indecisive areas. Most boys take a no as a no and won’t push the issue further.
It’s easy to say no to things that aren’t tempting, and much more difficult to say no to things that are desirable. I know I’d have a hell of a time saying no to a thousand dollars in cash, even from a questionable source. But I had a very easy time saying no to casual hook ups, alcohol, cigarettes and partying.
If girls really had a tough time saying no, they could be coerced into all kinds of dumb things like eating bugs or burning their hair. But you don’t see that happening. It’s exactly because many women are naturally more attracted to bad boy player alphas and are tempted by the sex with them that they can’t easily say no.
Most people aren’t impressed by a lack of self-control. You don’t see people caring about others indulging in their hedonistic foodlust and gaining tons of weight. But there are shows and stories about people losing 100, 200 pounds from dieting, exercising and using personal willpower.
It’d be much more of a story if as a whole, young girls all of a sudden were getting back to being chaste and waiting for love, rather than taking off their clothes and participating in wanton lustful behavior. That’s what would earn some respect.
@grerp
The saddest part of the story is what young women took away from this: blow jobs aren’t really sex.
Is it a sign of my old age that I thinl BJs are more intimate than p-in-v sex?
Ditto. I am actually surprised this is high on a guy’s list. And incredulous that it’s in a college girl’s repertoire. I can’t imagine a more degrading request, though perhaps I lack imagination.
Actually, on the previously mentioned Vineyard vacation, he did buy Monica a Black Dog t-shirt. Classy.
I’d also like to nominate children throughout the country learning what oral sex was. My own kids were under 10 when this popped up as the headline on the 5:00 news on the car radio. They’d heard it before I could hit the power button. That was a conversation I’d rather not have had. Sociologists believe that this event actually had a profound effect on that generation, and have dubbed it The Lewinsky Effect. It’s actually been studied. Your tax dollars at work.
@autumnpari – Welcome back!
Boy they sure do. This is actually spelled out in Game – how to break down a woman’s ASD – anti-slut defense. Women really are inclined to be people pleasers – it’s in our nature, and it’s strongly reinforced in the culture. We are easily made to feel guilty for not acquiescing – someone else gave the example of blue balls, which is a good one, I think.
That’s the first thing I thought—what guy would actually want that from a girl? Right off the top of my head I can think up at least 30 other things I’d want before that. I’m pretty sure he just asked her to drive home her humiliation…and he knew what a fucking incredible, barely believable story it would be.
And yeah, I think it’s pretty degrading although I’m not a woman so I don’t have much say here. I used to think “facials” were degrading and a strictly guy-fantasy, but girls are requesting them these days so I guess not.
“many women are naturally more attracted to bad boy player alphas and are tempted by the sex with them that they can’t easily say no.”
Is it the sex itself that is so tempting, though–or the “badass cred” in front of their friends?
I think “badass cred” (both genders) is way too overvalued in our culture.
“I’ve seen threads where guys say they wouldn’t even consider having sex with Megan Fox. Yeah, right. Same guys would probably do cartwheels for Barbara Streisand (ew).”
Hi Susan,
Isn’t true that most men are intimidated by beautiful women(you know 8s or higher). Men are less likely to approach beautiful women due to an overwhelming fear of being rejected by them. So, it shouldn’t be too surpising that there are men that wouldn’t consider sleeping with Megan Fox. In my opinion, women who are average or slightly above average are more successful with men. I can’t tell you how many times, I have been blown away by the sight of really good-looking guys, who are dating/married to very average looking women. It seems that, beautiful women are only approached by men who are over-compensating for something (e.g. ugly, fat, old, short, broke, nerds, players, jerks, psychos and so on). The a day decent(normal) attractive man were to ever approach me. I’d probably faint away, right then and there.
This from a response to a Maureen Dowd column at nytimes.com:
“There is one power men have that no amount of government power will ever be able to deprive them of; their right to separate women into two groups; those with whom they will have meaningful long-term relationships and those with whom they will have random, meaningless, short-term sex.”
“No corresponding power exists for women. This is our trump on all the cards played by feminism.”
MuleChewingBriars´s last [type] ..Mere Ideology- The politicisation of CS Lewis
Some women seem to believe that if they can be as good as a porn star, a guy will fall for them, or at least keep them around indefinitely. They haven’t grasped that porn star and girlfriend are mutually exclusive. Well, except for Vincent Chase I guess.
@Liza
Well sure, very few men would approach Megan Fox. I’m really talking about threads where guys say “she’s too skinny, I wouldn’t hit that,” etc. Often guys get hypercritical of a woman’s looks, even if she’s probably out of their league. I think what they’re really saying is, “I know I could never have her, but it doesn’t matter because I don’t want her anyway.” Whatever.
“I can’t tell you how many times, I have been blown away by the sight of really good-looking guys, who are dating/married to very average looking women.”
On the other hand, here’s something to think about. I work with a bazillion closeted gay men married to women who probably know the deal and are OK with it. Maybe it’s the industry I work in. Just a thought on those super-handsome men with plain jane wives. From what I can tell, the companionate love is genuine. And whatever they do in private I don’t know and it’s not my business. But I very much think, 99 percent sure, the wives are in on the deal and Ok with it.
People still do that these days? I thought gay guys marrying straight women was done and over with since being gay is more socially acceptable now. Do these couples have kids? What industry is this? Politics? (I joke… sort of.)
Few women will be able to see this guy for who he is until they’ve already been profoundly hurt, even emotionally damaged by him. I don’t even know how to advise women to guard against such a man – with his skill, and absence of conscience or empathy, he will play a woman hard before she even knows what hit her.
It certainly argues against sex oputside of established relationships.
She chose to attempt her second rate man poaching.
Obviously this was morally wrong, but I still fault the former Prez more than Monica. First, he was older and had it all over her in terms of sophistication. There’s a basic unfairness there matter how bad her behavior was. She was only a few years older than his daughter at the time of the affair and had some emotional problems that both Clinton and Linda Tripp took advantage of. Clearly a firmer moral compass would have kept her out of trouble, he did take advantage of that fact. Second, I tend in general to not see that sort of thing as man-stealing. If my own husband were to cheat, I’d be far more angry at him than at the other woman. She, after all, made me no promises. My husband OTOH stood up before God and promised fidelity. That Hilary stood by her man, who had a history of such vow-breaking, killed whatever respect I may have had for her. Both Clintons now disgust me.
I think this is what happens when being a whore is considered “empowering”. The porn star stuff needs to wait until you are years into a relationship, IMHO. Anytime before then is a serious red flag to a guy. Anytime after that makes him feel lucky to be with you.
I’m sorry but that’s just not true unless a condom and dental dam are used, which is rare. 75% of new genital herpes infections on college campuses were transmitted via oral sex. Not counting oral as sexual contact is very strange. What kind of contact is it when you lick someone’s genitals?
@J
I agree 100%. I don’t buy the whole “homewrecker” thing. Bill Clinton’s marriage was not ML’s responsibility, and his infidelities were well known. What really steamed me was that NOW refused to condemn him AT ALL, though they had called for Bob Packwood’s head for far less. Ugh. As for Hillary standing by Bill, I do believe their marriage is strictly strategic – whatever their connection is, it’s pretty clear that sex isn’t part of it, and probably hasn’t been for hmmm, how old is Chelsea?
Sasha:
*snicker* Well, I’m sure the guys this happened to were just devastated when they found out!
I agree that Bill Clinton was much older and more experienced at adultery (and life), and as Monica’s superior if not boss, should have kept his pants zipped. And he was the one who was married and should bear the blame for cheating.
I also agree that the Clinton marriage was strategic and Hillary appears to have adopted a “Just keep it discreet” way of dealing with Bill (which he clearly ignored). She pretty much traded her self respect and the chance at having a real marriage for her shot at the brass ring.
But I don’t give a pass to women who sleep with married men, happily married or not.
And, yes, the hypocrisy of NOW was pretty amazing.
grerp´s last [type] ..Anecdotes on women in math and science
What really steamed me was that NOW refused to condemn him AT ALL,
Yes, that was appalling.
As for Hillary standing by Bill, I do believe their marriage is strictly strategic
Yep. She got a chance to be co-president; now he gets a turn at co-Secretaty of State.
whatever their connection is, it’s pretty clear that sex isn’t part of it, and probably hasn’t been for hmmm, how old is Chelsea?
LOL. 30.
I notice that the question of the ethics of preserving the reputation of the girls you’ve hooked up with has come up. I think it’s worth looking at it from both sides though. Sure, telling the entire school how you degraded a girl you hooked up with might be mean. On the other hand, you could say they’re performing a service for other men. If I’m considering a relationship with some girl, and she gave a rimjob to some dude on the football team during a hookup, that’s a piece of information I want to be privy to.
@Hope: Publishing.
I think both want the family life and are genuinely happy with that aspect. I also think in many cases both partners are too fastidious for sex anyway. Sex would take time away from their poetry circle.
@Athlone:
.
Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the other way around. Ivy-league elites tend to be ultra socially liberal, and to not bother instilling their children with even basic character or moral awareness. It’s the same reason that successful societies tend to collapse into decadence. Their success insulates them with a false sense of security. They come to think they’re above the need for the petty morality of the little people. And yet it doesn’t stop their daughters from ending up miserable filthy cumrags.
@The Deuce:
The Deuce: “Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the other way around.”
Athlone: It isn’t. I’ve seen and heard enough to get a fairly strong understanding of both scenes. No school in the Ivy League even comes close to an average state school for partying. Most less selective private universities surpass them as well, even in smaller cities like Amherst, Albany or Providence. There really is no comparison.
Deuce: “Ivy-league elites tend to be ultra socially liberal, and to not bother instilling their children with even basic character or moral awareness. It’s the same reason that successful societies tend to collapse into decadence. Their success insulates them with a false sense of security. They come to think they’re above the need for the petty morality of the little people. And yet it doesn’t stop their daughters from ending up miserable filthy cumrags.”
Athlone: Well, I’ll start by saying that none of this is actually correct. The generalizations you are making are fairly common among critics of selective higher education, but if you actually came and spent enough time here, you’d lose them quickly.
I spend plenty of time around the sons and daughters of the people who pretty much run this country(despite not actually being one of them myself). I can tell you that their culture is not the one you described. They’re not nearly as liberal as you think, for one. Sure, we have some of the typical “limousine liberals” here for sure, but there are tons of conservatives, much more than you’d expect to see at an Ivy.
Secondly, the basic character values and morality are present in spades here. Most of the kids who go here are pretty decent people, conservative and liberal alike, and very polite for the most part. Seriously, most who visit are surprised by it. They don’t skimp on some of the typical family values either. Their rates of marriage are actually HIGHER than average, and a lot of their “values” as a group seem to be more intact than I’ve seen at other places. Illegitimacy, for example, is damn near unheard of in most of their backgrounds, and when they leave they seem more apt to marry and begin that same cycle again than others are. When I see them with their families on parent weekends and other events, I see a lot of cohesiveness.
And finally, their wealth does not create any degree of reckless abandon as you seem to be insinuating. It does create some other social dynamics(some of which I eluded to in comments on other recent posts), but wildness is not one of them. Kids here are FAR more restrained than at other schools due to a variety of factors. Some of it is intelligence(less likely to make impulsive decisions), sometimes its even just social awkwardness(lots of really smart kids = some uniquely weird interactions). We have some of the stereotypical party dudes and girls here like you’d expect at college, but they aren’t as common at all because few of them actually get in. It isn’t the same.
If you want to party, your only options are friday and saturday nights if you want to see a decent number of people, and some weekends you will find NOTHING. The campus will be dead because kids decided to just stay in and study or hang out in small groups. No wildness at all. That is just unimaginable for most kids in college. My friends at various state and private schools in New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey can go out at least 3-4 times a week, and there is ALWAYS at least one decent sized party on each of those days. They would be bored out of their minds here.
This from a response to a Maureen Dowd column at nytimes.com:
“There is one power men have that no amount of government power will ever be able to deprive them of; their right to separate women into two groups; those with whom they will have meaningful long-term relationships and those with whom they will have random, meaningless, short-term sex. No corresponding power exists for women. This is our trump on all the cards played by feminism.”
This makes zero sense. Is she saying I should’ve married the men I had casual sex with? Or I should have just relegated my current husband to the casual sex pool?
I grew up with three brothers, and what they pounded into me growing up was, “There are girls men play with, and there are girls men take seriously. Girls need to decide which one they want to be and act accordingly, because men follow your lead.”
I don’t know how relevant the “men follow your lead” part still is in the present hooking up atmosphere though. These days I shake my head at finding out that my twentysomething nephews manage to get girlfriends just by TEXTING, because when I was single, courtship was the norm.
Geez, does that make me sound ancient or what??
Nor do I – I recall your post on man-poaching and have no disagreement with it. I think the case of ML and Clinton is obviously an extreme example – she was no pillar of moral strength, but I always felt that the power imbalance and age difference lay the blame primarily at his feet.
@Anonymous
Re the Clintons:
And they’re not done yet. We may still see them happily reunited with the staff at 1600.
Eh, I’m not so invested in the ethics argument. If you perform such an act for a guy who is a known player during a casual encounter, you’re an idiot if you don’t think he’s going to talk. We may be shocked at the callousness of the guy’s sharing the story among 120 teammates, but we probably shouldn’t be. The fact that he even made that request in the first place revealed his feelings about the woman, not to mention the nature of his sexual experience. The idea that guys would protect the reputation of women who engage in such behavior is essentially a request for chivalry – and that’s not reasonable.
One might also say he provided a service for other women. There’s now no chance that this woman will lure a guy into a relationship, which benefits women who are not performing such acts.
@Seeds for Life
It means that by and large, there is a sexual double standard that is biologically driven. Most men have different short-term vs. long-term mating strategies. For short-term mating, they prefer women with a high sex drive and a high degree of sexual experience. For long-term mating, they prefer sexual inexperience, and seek reassurance that a woman will be satisfied with monogamy. For obvious reasons, women can’t be both. Do promiscuous women marry? Yes, sometimes. But the pool of men who do not care about a woman’s sexual past is far smaller than the population of men who do.
“I think one part of the problem is that a lot of girls I see simply don’t know how to say “no.” I’m not sure why that is, and it goes from simple things, like declining an offer to hang out when it’s finals time all the way to hooking up with a guy. Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively.”
YES! This is my experience. I can honestly say that I wouldn’t have done some things that I have with guys if I had at the time known how to assertively communicate that I didn’t want to do those things. Over time I have learnt to say “no” better but at times it is still challenging. I’m willing to bet that this is the experience of a lot of young women. While I don’t believe anything is wrong with having sex per se, this could be one argument for women delaying sexual activity until later in life. All advice I ever got was “use a condom” and that pushed me into doing it way too early simply because no-one had explained me why I should wait. I wish someone had told me instead, “Sex is something you might want to wait with because of X, Y and Z.” Women would benefit from not having sex until they have learnt to say “no”, otherwise they may get pushed into things they really don’t want to do.
@Susan
I think the consequences for Monica were way beyond what most people suffer for making stupid mistakes when young. Bill is a serial player. She didn’t lure him into adultery; he hadn’t had respect for his marriage vows – well, I’m betting ever. So, he’s powerful and magnetic and he gets her to do what he wants and she suffers intense media scrutiny and a majorly dinged reputation for the rest of her natural days while he stays married, stays President, and continues to enjoy the admiration of millions. That his daughter’s wedding was celebrated as an American royal wedding and he got to walk her down the aisle and stand in the happy father/husband spot in the pictures says it all.
OTOH, I’ve read a number of articles lately on feministe, etc., talking about how we shouldn’t blame the other woman because it’s our partner who was in the relationship and decided to cheat. But to reframe the argument, if my son got busted for using drugs, I’d be angry and disappointed in him and I’d also be angry and disappointed at the drug dealer who made the drugs so easily available (and very likely at the society that says out of one side of its mouth that drugs are no big deal and out of the other repudiates them and puts people in prison for years for dealing or using them). No, Monica was not as culpable, but her actions were hardly altruistic or even morally neutral.
grerp´s last [type] ..Anecdotes on women in math and science
@Susan
I am Anonymous on September 1, 2010 at 10:15 pm. Forgot to sign in, sorry.
And they’re not done yet. We may still see them happily reunited with the staff at 1600.
Oh, no doubt we will. Nothing sticks to them; they’re teflon.
I think all this is irrelevant now as the pay gap between men and women has now been reversed. Many women as of now won’t and don’t have to worry about labels as they’ll continue to have casual relations with men. Their biggest problem in the coming years will be more and more men are going to tune out as they wake up to the fact how lopsided and discriminatory the system is towards them. And women won’t be able to find men to support them as the jobs they took away from men pretty much is a guarantee that many will end up single for the remainder of their lives.
Congrats ladies, you got what you wanted.
@Anni
Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively.
Women are socialized to be nice. I recall once feeling guilty for blowing off a guy who was just obnoxious to me. We met through acquaintances. On our first date, he couldn’t get off the subject of what did I find attractive in men (chest hair is a major concern as I remember) and what particiular sex acts was I willing to perform. I was actually young and stupid enough to sit through the date and give serious answers to those questions. I refused a second date, but felt horrible about possibily misjudging him until a male friend assured me that I was crazy for worrying. And I’m a famously assertive woman!
I wish someone had told me instead, “Sex is something you might want to wait with because of X, Y and Z.”
I think that people are actually afraid to say that because they assume that no one will listen.
Women would benefit from not having sex until they have learnt to say “no”, otherwise they may get pushed into things they really don’t want to do.
Very, very true. Sex is so powerful a force that people without a good deal of ego strength can really be messed up by it. Penetrative sex is literally letting someone inside you. That means something for better or worse.
“Women would benefit from not having sex until they have learnt to say “no”, otherwise they may get pushed into things they really don’t want to do.”
This is so true. And it also applies to girls raised very, very strictly. If you raise your daughter 1) to be extremely afraid of authority, anger, or disapproval, and 2) that any male in the entire world has authority over any female anywhere in the entire world, 3) that her entire identity and all chance for approval, acceptance, or success lies in “snagging” a man, and 4) that she has no right to decide anything for herself, an unintended consequence is you are raising a pushover with no authority in her “no.”
@grerp
That his daughter’s wedding was celebrated as an American royal wedding and he got to walk her down the aisle and stand in the happy father/husband spot in the pictures says it all.
Yep. Nauseating isn’t it? And Hillary right there beside him!
OTOH, I’ve read a number of articles lately on feministe, etc., talking about how we shouldn’t blame the other woman because it’s our partner who was in the relationship and decided to cheat.
I sure wouldn’t call the other woman’s actions good or even morally neutral, but I prefer feministe’s position to the sort of nonsense you see on Jerry Springer where the wronged wife, babymama or gf rationalizes the guy’s behavior (“That bitch stole my man!”) so she can stay with him. A man isn’t an inanimate article that you can just pick up and walk away with. He has to want to go. And serial cheaters are very good at preying on the young and stupid, getting hopes up and even lying as to their marital status to get what they want.
@jt
While some classes of women out-earn some classes of men, women in general still earn .78 to every dollar earned by men. If all the keeps men and women together is a paycheck, then men are still safe.
I went to a private university that was an Ivy League wanna-be, where the kids were self-conscious about not getting into a real Ivy, but the school was still ranked in the top 15. I found a similar atmosphere that Athlone talked about — lots of studying, not much partying. Most students I knew were busy with organizations or homework. All the on-campus parties are “dry” meaning no alcohol, and they were also weekend-only.
So I do not think this is necessarily a liberal vs. conservative thing. It seems to have more to do with class, background and upbringing. My husband’s family is very liberal, and he is more leftist than I am, but he definitely did not sleep around and has often denounced casual sex. I think the more accurate description is “traditional.”
And jt, you might want to take your job grievances up a bit higher than the masses of women doing clerical and mundane jobs. Men are having a tough time due to globalization and outsourcing of almost all manufacturing, technology and traditionally masculine jobs. Construction has been flooded by cheap labor from immigrants as well, and you can thank the corporations who want to cut costs and make more profit at the expense of the workers.
As the average worker’s wages have stagnated or decreased, the top money has increased by leaps and bounds. The difference between middle class and the mega-wealthy has increased tremendously. Furthermore, women have been working in Asia for many years, earlier than even women in the West, yet there is no outcry that men are less able to find work than women there… probably because so many jobs have been exported there. Cheap labor costs plus globalization. Follow the real big money instead of the peanuts that most women make.
Yes! I remember one time I took a guy up to my room, frankly just because I didn’t want to offend them. He of course thought I wanted to have sex or make out at least and things went from uncomfertable to borderline serious misunderstanding when it was revealed that I didn’t want any of these things. It can be exceedingly hard to say no.
V´s last [type] ..The End of the World
.78 for every dollar is not an average, it is an aggregate. men work more hours than women in aggregate. if you caluclate hourly wages, the differnce between men and women is much slimmer.
At j:
But now there’s evidence that the ship may finally be turning around: according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group. In two cities, Atlanta and Memphis, those women are making about 20% more. This squares with earlier research from Queens College, New York, that had suggested that this was happening in major metropolises. But the new study suggests that the gap is bigger than previously thought, with young women in New York City, Los Angeles and San Diego making 17%, 12% and 15% more than their male peers, respectively. And it also holds true even in reasonably small areas like the Raleigh-Durham region and Charlotte in North Carolina (both 14% more), and Jacksonville, Fla. (6%). (See TIME’s special report on the state of the American woman.)
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html?xid=rss-fullnation-yahoo
Yes. Women have shorter careers due to child birth and are generally less willing to work as many hours as men. When studies control for these facts, it has been established that women actually make 101 percent of what men do. That’s right—women are given a 1 percent premium just for having vaginas.
The pay gap is gone, folks. Time to stop beat that dead horse.
And back at j:
The article is about 20 something single childless women. Many of those women are destined to remain single the rest of their lives because of hypergamy. Men are being outearned and their status as unemployed will also continue to rise thus taking them out of the relationship equation altogether. Quotas, an education system geared towards women and now the ever increasing boss being big daddy government has pretty much ensured this trend will rise in the future.
Coming in late in the game here but…
Being a girl who has been privy to a lot of guy talk I can vouch for the fact that guys will gossip as much as girls about who they’ve slept with and who is willing to do what. It’s insane and immediately you know that girl has been black listed. I started with a really long comment here that became off topic and more about me so i ended up expanding on it and posting it on my blog although I suspect that it’s not showing up as the most recent post yet underneath this comment. I hadn’t posted in awhile myself because of some family issues and work taking over my life as well.
But again – girls need to learn to say no. The odd time I’ve ended up making out with a guy while drunk I stop early on and make a point of laying out the boundaries and none of those guys have pushed for more and in fact they’ve always said something to the extent of “I know – you’re not that type of girl.” Later on they’ll re-iterate that they know I’m not that type of girl in the sober light of day. If a guy pressures you for more, he doesn’t respect you so bounce. For real. You don’t have to put up with that shit.
reformed_tomboy´s last [type] ..Texting not always your best option
HI I love this blog and these discussions!
Susan,
You asked how women can avoid men like the hockey player when they often hide their true asshole-ness from girls with whom they are trying to score. I think it is the girl who is fooling herself and not the other way around. Here is how she can avoid trickingherself into believing an a-hole is a nice guy:
1. Wait for him to treat her like a girlfreind before doing the deed. This includes going out in public together on actual dates. If he is willing to be seen with her at the cafeteria, football game, movies with his buddies as an pre-arranged date then he is views her as more than a conquest to humiliate.
2. Forget the false dichotomy of “guys like this.” He would probably treat an actual wife/girlfreind very well. The trick is to be in the girlfreind zone and not the pump and dump zone.
3. Girls should be realistic about who they can land and date below their station if they can’t find a suitable guy rather than get used by the alphas. By colleges, girls know how attractive they are and if they are a 5 they ought be suspicious of the captian of the hockey team’s advances. They know he can get better.
I realize 3 violates hypergamy but this is how I got through college and I was able to avoiud public humiliation. (now happily married 10 +years)
Various: Some girls just seem to feel like it’s rude or unkind to say no, firmly and decisively …. Women are socialized to be nice …. It can be exceedingly hard to say no.
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Solipsism at its very zenith; take a look around, as the view doesn’t get any better than this.
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This is so utterly ludicrous, so fantastically flat-earth at odds with reality that it’s difficult to know even where to start in responding to it. Perhaps I could introduce you to a man — or two, or three, or ten million — who’s just lived through his 1,000th firm and unmistakable rejection from a woman, and you can explain to him just how hard it is for women to say no. Then, consider yourself lucky if he doesn’t haul off and slap you hard across the face — only fair, in a sense, since propagating this pernicious, dehumanizing tripe practically amounts to an act of violence in itself.
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I’ve read a number of things on this blog that show just how disconnected from reality women can be (though, to be fair, I will credit female HUS commenters as being noticeably less delusional than other communities, such as modern-day feminists). But “women have a hard time saying no” is really an award-winning cut above, one for the record books. As a public service, let me re-acquaint you with reality as it stands on Planet Earth:
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Of all inter-sexual acts between men and women, the most common — by far, bar none — is the act of a woman rejecting a man’s advance/request. To a first approximation, the entire sexual world is one giant female mouth saying “No”; all other occurrences amount to a small correction numerically. Women are experts, grand masters, black belts in saying “No”, with thousands of hours of flight training under their belts (no pun intended). How anyone can type the contrary without having their very keyboard burst into flames is beyond me.
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On the receiving end of all this rejection, of course, are men. WIth perhaps a few gifted exceptions, men eat, drink and sleep rejection. Rejection is the very air we breathe, it is the sea in which we swim. If you count all forms of advance and request — and there’s no reason you shouldn’t — then the typical man is rejected ten times a day, every day, for ten thousand days of his life. The woman who scowls and turns her head when you look at her, the woman who refuses to smile back, the woman crosses her arms and looks bored when you open your mouth to talk to her — and, if you get over all those hurdles, the vast majority of the time a man’s reward is simply to hear that, no, the woman is not interested in hanging out later, or any time this century. Women like to think that men have it easy, or at least that certain men have it easy; but remember that even PUA’s and successful womanizers are still playing against long odds. Warren Beatty once said that even he was shot down 90% of the time, and what does that mean for the rest of us? 99% failure? 99.9%?
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So, ladies, get it straight: being rejected is the norm for male life, and rejecting is the norm for women’s behavior. That’s the reality on Planet Earth. Now, I’m not saying that reality should be, or even could be any different. Women are generally quite picky, and not without good reason; and even if they weren’t, there simply wouldn’t be enough hours in the day to say yes to all advances. Given the realities of the male drive, it is pretty much inevitable that large majority of their advances will be rejected by women, and there’s nothing bad or evil about that fact in itself. What is bad and evil, IMO, is not recognizing reality for what it is, and instead indulging in ludicrous, self-serving fantasies about how accommodating, un-hurtful and eager to please women are. We all have a choice about that, and writing “Women have a hard time saying no”, in its many variations, is an utter failure to recognize reality for which you should all hang your heads in shame.
Esau for the motherfucking win.
Esau,
I understand where you’re coming from. But I think you’re misunderstanding a bit.
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You are absolutely correct in that saying no to a random stranger on the street is completely easy. It’s pretty much second nature in fact–especially in big cities like where I live.
But when you’re with a man with whom you have an emotional connection and that you’ve been making out with on your couch for the past half hour it’s pretty damn difficult to say “I’d rather not go further today.”
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Maybe you can’t understand why that’s so, but I will tell you it is so.
@Esau, you overlooked my comment yesterday at 3:27. I’m not going to say I don’t reject men. I’ve rejected a lot of men. The only men I had trouble rejecting were the ones who professed to me that they were in love with me and would be devastated if I rejected them… so I often did not. What the girls mean is they get extra pressure by bad boys, and they don’t know what to do. The good guys don’t usually put on that pressure.
@jt, I do agree that men were hit the hardest by this depression (let’s just call a spade by a spade) and lack of jobs, and I see this in my daily life and the lives of my female coworkers who are married to out-of-work construction guys, tech guys, etc. The bad school system, quotas, discrimination against masculine work styles, and the emphasis on “agreeing with the current system” make it hard for men to get ahead.
It is also, as I said, in large part because of the shift in the national economy to a globalized economy, in which both low-skill and high-skill labor in manufacturing, construction, engineering, information technology and other male-dominated fields have been flooded by cheap labor or outsourced/exported to China, India, etc.
There is almost no job growth in infrastructure building here in the US, and men excel at infrastructure. No high-speed rails being built like in Japan, Europe or China. No funding for the space program that was so dominant 50 years ago. No real headway into alternative energy because oil infrastructure is still dominant. You basically have paper-pushers and managerial type of jobs left, which women fill to the satisfaction of their bosses due to their lack of “rebelliousness.”
@ Chili
The point is that women have the wherewithal to say no if they really, really want to say no. And they do it all time. The fact that they don’t say no to alpha assholes even though it could be hazardous for them not to is meaningful in that context.
What’s being said here is that although women are raised to be “eager to please”, then still have no problem shutting down guys—-unless they find them attractive. Okay fine…how does that make them any different from men? Men also find it difficult to say no to hot women, while have no problems completely shutting down the Cigstaches of the world.
The point is that the inability to say no to attractive people isn’t unique to women. But the blanket statements on this forum (ie, “Women really are inclined to be people pleasers – it’s in our nature, and it’s strongly reinforced in the culture.”– S. Walsh) ignores that basic fact.
@Chili – I think you hit the nail on the head there in your reply to Esau. There is a difference in terms of context when it comes to saying no for women. If you’re already in certain situations and you’ve started to feel some sort of connection and you’re desperate for that male validation you will likely have a harder time saying no.
There is a mentality that everyone, everywhere – short of the super ugly or the super religious – are having sex. The shocked looks I get from people when I state that I’m a 22 year old virgin tells me this and I know other girls have buckled under that kind of pressure because if everyone else is doing it, why shouldn’t they?
That being said, Esau, I agree that women should be able to say no. I say no all the time – even in the heat of the moment. But I also don’t give a flying fuck what other people think, whereas a lot of girls will bow to the peer pressure. I think girls need to step up and take responsibility for themselves and develop a healthy level of self respect as well.
reformed_tomboy´s last [type] ..Texting not always your best option
Amen to what Hope said.
And Esau, you should put your writing talent to becoming the next Chuck Palahniuk. The women would be lining up.
@ Reformed Tomboy
I still don’t see how this makes “saying no” a uniquely female problem. Of course the context is different—men and women are different. The argument seems to be that women feel sexual pressure to give consent to things that aren’t in their best interests. But that’s clearly the case with men as well, for instance the guy who’s a doormat wrt to his really hot girlfriend because he wants to make her happy and doesn’t want to lose her.
Inasmuch as the point of this blog is to help girls make better decisions, then I understand the focus on women’s inability to say no. But the vibe I’m getting from the replies to Esau and some blanket statements from the female posters above makes it seems as if this is a problem that is somehow unique to rougher on women, and that’s just not true.
@dragnet – I feel like you missed part of what I wrote. I didn’t say that saying no was a uniquely female problem. However, I think there are very different contexts and as we were talking about the problem women seem to have with saying no that was what I was addressing.
I do however think that it can be a harder problem for women – largely in that women are more likely to regret those split second decisions more so than a man will. Particularly as many guys who would find themselves in a sexual situation are likely the alphas who are actively searching for sex. Those guys that would want to say no if they were in that situation, likely won’t end up in that type of situation in the first place because they aren’t getting the same kind of attention from women. There may be other ways in which guys have trouble saying no, but I think when it comes to sex, I think it’s decidedly more rare for the woman to be the one pushing for more than the guy is willing to give. Again – I think it’s because the guys who are in those situations are more likely to have actively placed themselves there.
I think women are mroe likely to end up in those situations without realizing what they’re doing because they a) want to be people pleasers and b) want to fit in and c) think it’s expected and d) think it’s the way to get a boyfriend.
Most guys are not going to think that hooking up is the way to get a girlfriend.
at least that’s what I’ve gathered in my years through conversations with friends.
reformed_tomboy´s last [type] ..Texting not always your best option
@Easau, ”On the receiving end of all this rejection, of course, are men. WIth perhaps a few gifted exceptions, men eat, drink and sleep rejection. Rejection is the very air we breathe, it is the sea in which we swim.”
It’s something I never thought about before until I had a quite good looking and charming boyfriend who hinted this at me. I thought that someone of his looks would have had no problem getting any woman he was attracted to. But in his geographical area, no. The women around him went for other types of men (some better than him, some worse, depending on the woman’s station in life) and a few that he liked turned out to be lesbians. He also never shot above his looks range because he felt intimated by those woman – were sure that they would reject him and if not, be too stuck up and high maintainance for him to maintain.
That’s when he settled for me: the average looking “cute” girl with not a lot of experience and no high demands.
I just could not understand what he was doing with me, since it was obvious to me he would have preferred other women, women that were culturally and ethnically closer to him, but appearantly “his own women” didn’t want him, despite him being quite good looking.
After being with him for a while I realized he had some “issues” that would turn some women off. But still, he should have been able to snag some of the lower ranking women in his community for short term relationships and he wasn’t even able to do that. He had to look outside and far and wide for “love”.
He told me, “do you know how hard it is for an average guy to get access to many women?”
And here I was thinking, because of his background, looks, neighborhood, etc that all guys like him were players.
“Two words. Monica Lewinsky. She eventually had to move out of America.
So sad. An attention hungry 21 year old from a broken home gets taken advantage of by the most powerful man in the Western World, and those few minutes of her life ruin the rest of it. Yeah, she was stupid, but stupid in a way that most girls get to forget about.”
What’s even sadder is the power differential a dork like Clinton needed to bed Lewinsky. I mean look at JFK. Put another way, the best he could do before entering politics and gaining any power is Hillary.
“I think women are more likely to end up in those situations without realizing what they’re doing because they a) want to be people pleasers and b) want to fit in and c) think it’s expected and d) think it’s the way to get a boyfriend.”
If this were a pie chart, b (wanting to fit in) would be at least 60 percent in my opinion. Also, d overlaps with b a great deal. Many women want a boyfriend in order to fit in/have higher status/at least avoid total ZERO status. c would be most of the other 20 percent. When the guy says “Well what did you go out with me for if you’re not going to put out” or something to that effect, or the whole world acts as if there is NO SUCH THING as stopping after a few kisses. Now the whole world is saying “it’s manipulative” to stop after a few kisses.
This is the #1 thing I was shocked about in 05 and the #1 reason I am glued to this blog even though I’m old and in a relationship. This was such a huge change in how “waiting” is looked at today. It’s other women saying it’s “manipulative” to hold out for a commitment. I really don’t know how most men feel about that. It’s hard to tell if they are saying “it’s manipulative” in order to manipulate and they would really tell their sisters to wait and tell the guy to cool his jets or get lost, with confidence.
People are all over the map about this and the religion they profess (or at least the denomination they profess) doesn’t seem to determine whether they wait or believe waiting is “manipulative.”
I still don’t believe waiting to weed out the ones who can take me or leave me, is “manipulative.” It was the norm in the 80′s. It was normal to tell the guy “I have to be in a relationship.” MOST of the men advisers I read say to be like that.
It’s just been a huge change in the last few years with fellow women saying to wait is “manipulative.” Where did that come from, and why such a push?
@grerp
I agree, though I think there are varying degrees of responsibility. Poaching, or luring, someone – that is, setting out to seduce them is quite different than being a target of seduction by a person with a lot more authority, e.g. POTUS, or a college prof. However, ML clearly was not targeted – she participated fully in wooing Clinton as evidenced by her Linda Tripp confidences. She was drunk on it, so she is definitely somewhat culpable. I agree with you, too, that she paid a very high price for that youthful indiscretion.
Re what has been said about saying “no” and women rejecting men
Lots of times a young woman is given a choice to either go farther than she wants to with a guy or to lose the guy’s attention. If it’s a guy she likes and he keeps trying after she said “no” the fist (second, third etc time) then saying a final and firm “no” to him at this point is already difficult. Add the woman’s inexperience, sex pos feminism that encourages women to have sex like men and tells her that she won’t be slut shamed and a hope that this will lead to a realtionship and you’ve got a perfect mix for the making of a slut.
The college version of this is women automatically despising their bf’s exes, or their ex’s new gf. Often this jealousy is born of insensitive behavior on the part of the guy, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the other woman. Intrasexual female competition prevails, though, and women do use it to justify excusing rejection by men.
From my About page: 12% of women say that it is sometimes easier to have sex with a guy they don’t know than to make conversation.
Also, I know that many young women in college would rather say yes and get it over with than risk a confrontation with possible aggression. They could call 911 easily, but they don’t want the social blowback that comes from filing a complaint.
GT, there’s more to the Bill and Hillary story than just how they looked when they were young. Jack Hitt had an essay on it back in the day.
The gist of it was, many men who are going into politics know there is a kind of woman they are “supposed to marry” in order to make it in politics. Then there is the kind of woman they are sexually attracted to, who wouldn’t be a good political wife.
Jack Hitt is a Southern journalist and he pointed out that the kind of woman Bill Clinton was attracted to wore a lot of lipstick and “trumpeted her sexuality” a bit like Bill’s mother. Heels, makeup, tight sweaters. Anyway, they know the kind of woman they are “supposed to marry” and they won’t marry the kind of woman they are attracted to, for status reasons.
This doesn’t mean they don’t like and want the one they are “supposed to marry” for a life partner. They know they can’t marry the type they are attracted to…a Gennifer Flowers or a Rielle Hunter, and make it in politics. They respect the hell out of their wife, I’m sure, but they can’t have it all in one woman except maybe a lucky few. I think the guys going into politics know this, and they marry the one they are “supposed to marry” because they want success more than they want to be with the one they’re sexually attracted to.
Who am I to say that’s wrong? I’d rather be the respected wife who was not the one he was sexually attracted to, and be realistic about it. I see plenty of marriages I think are like that. Of course there’s always the danger he’ll cheat, but if you’re the woman who’s the sexually desired object and nothing else, I think that’s a much shakier foundation for a woman’s lifelong happiness quotient.
Not sure–I’ve never been the bombshell guys were gaga about!
This is another area where feminists refuse to be intellectually honest. I had a consulting career working 80+ hours a week, traveling most of the time. When I had a child I went from 100 mph to 0 mph. There really was just no way I could continue to do that job. I have friends with similar stories from law – they made partner before having a child, then realized it would be physically impossible to maintain that career. Same deal for women in medicine. So what do women do? I went freelance, subcontracting with my old firm, and I made a lot less money. Female partners in law firms join companies as legal counsel, trading the big bucks for a better lifestyle. Women avoid surgery and become pediatricians. As women we make choices that compromise our pay so that we may get other benefits. This is obviously not true for everyone, but it applies to the vast majority. Very few women in my own b-school class stayed in the fast lane for more than 5 years or so.
Most of those women choose to be with players, so why should we feel sorry for them? A lot of those women have massive egos and refuse to settle for a guy who is of comparable attractiveness because they have deluded themselves into believing that they are more attractive than they really are. Many of these women feel as though they got burned by players, but it seems as though many of these women get played over and over again, so it seems as though they are the ones to blame for their own poor choices? I’m sure that the vast majority of those women don’t feel sorry for the “nice guys” who are overlooked by the women who flock to douchey players.
@Maura
Welcome, thanks for joining the conversation!
I’m not sure if you intended this, but you make an interesting point here, one we’ve discussed a lot. That is, most guys will not make a relationship “official” without being sexual first. With rare exceptions, they don’t need to, and they’d rather commit once they feel assured that the sex is going to be really good. However, as you say, a guy who is treating you like a girlfriend, clearly and unashamedly demonstrating his continued interest, is probably a good bet. No woman wanting a relationship should have sex if she is at all insecure or unsure about the guy’s feelings for her.
Well said, and this can only be accomplished if the guy knows right up front, either through your reputation or direct communication, that you are a girlfriend, not a hookup (the female equivalent of dad vs. cad).
Interesting. If we think of hypergamy as an evolved strategy to choose the best possible mate, then certainly some women can override that impulse to adopt a strategy more suitable to mating in the 21st c.
@Snowdrop111
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Guys don’t reference “cock teasing” as a form of reverse psychology. We really mean it.
I think female indicators of interest have changed from the 80′s in a way that would make “manipulative” an accurate word to describe stopping at 1st base.
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Quick story… At the beginning of the summer I ran into a friend at lunch, who introduced me to a bartender friend of hers. It didn’t take 30 minutes before her friend’s flirting referenced sex and first dates. I’m in an LTR so I didn’t bite, but you can see how modern interactions can set up some extremely high expectations. If I were single and to have “drinks with her sometime” as she proposed, I would have been not happy with “just kissing”.
@Esau
I think we need to differentiate some here, and just take a vacation from the word solipsism. The women on this thread are specifically discussing saying no to someone they’re already acquainted with. The point is that women are indeed socialized from the earliest age to negotiate, compromise, demonstrate empathy, pretend empathy, etc. (Note: Yes, we learn to manipulate others by pretending to be nice when we’re going for the jugular). This is expected of girls, and just as boys are penalized for rough and tumble behavior in school, girls are penalized if they are not nurturing and inclusive as children.
It goes without saying, I would think, that turning down a request for sex is difficult only when the woman is tempted. She is tempted physically to proceed, i.e. blue ladyballs, but her cerebral cortex sounds the alarm that this might not be such a good idea. The male kicks in with anti-slut defense – well after sexual attraction has already been established.
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Do women have trouble saying no to men they don’t find attractive? No. Not in the least. Not sure why that should bother anyone. I continue to be amazed at the continued resentment by some men that women are biologically programmed a certain way. It’s in our best interests to be selective, which means rejecting nearly all requests for sex that we’ll receive in our lifetimes. It’s a waste of time to belabor the observation that women reject men’s sexual advances most of the time. .
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Is there a way that men can become more sexually attractive to women? Yes, and it’s a crapton of work. If you don’t want to take it on, don’t. But bitching at women about who we’re attracted to will change exactly nothing.
It’s not a uniquely female problem at all, just around when to give in to sex. That’s because this post and thread give some pretty alarming examples of women being so eager to please, and having so little self-respect, that they don’t even know they’re being jeered at in the town square.
Certainly there are equivalent examples for men – your point, dragnet, about men being a doormat is a good one. And I daresay there’s a good post and discussion to be had about the dangers of men pedestalizing women. In fact, I think I know a blog or two that tackle that subject matter.
Still, the stakes may be higher for women – every time a woman fails to say no to sex that is not in her best interests, she permanently devalues herself, at least according to many of the men who often comment here.
Who cares if women aren’t getting attention for whatever reason? Would anyone argue that men deserve “attention” by virtue of their simply being men?
The way this blog tries to orient the problem of modern sexual dynamics towards retarded caricatures of “players” is the height of hubris on the part of women. Women are the ones who decide what enters or stays out of their legs. If they make poor choices, that’s no one’s fault but their own. No one would have sympathy for a man who decided he was being “used”, and rightly so: people do not accidentally fall in bed with each other.
“The college version of this is women automatically despising their bf’s exes, or their ex’s new gf. Often this jealousy is born of insensitive behavior on the part of the guy, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the other woman. Intrasexual female competition prevails, though, and women do use it to justify excusing rejection by men.”
Susan,
This brings to mind the whole J. Aniston, A. Jollie and B. Pitt situation, where J. Aniston seems to be more angry at A. Jollie and only blaming her for the demise of her marriage to B. Pitt. As I see it, B. Pitt should be the one she is the most angry with because he stepped outside of their marriage. But A. Jollie is the main target of her anger. I’m not saying she shouldn’t be anger with A. Jollie but B. Pitt broke his vows to her. Btw, I think the whole you stole my man or woman is ridiculous. I hope I wasn’t going off topic here.
Hi Kurt,
I don’t think anyone here does feel sorry for them. It’s more like looking at a car accident – we acknowledge the tragedy, have a hard time looking away, and see if we can learn something from these women making incredibly poor choices. I highlight examples like this because women need to understand how they’re really seen by the men they’re hooking up with. I can guarantee that the woman referenced in this post probably thinks things are going great with this guy. Her friends are undoubtedly reassuring her this is the case, and may even by jealous of her apparent good fortune in snagging a hockey player. It is truly a Venus/Mars situation, and women have a lot to learn about life on Mars.
@susan Walsh
No woman wanting a relationship should have sex if she is at all insecure or unsure about the guy’s feelings for her.
This is where I think a lot of women get themselves in trouble emotionally. They think the sex will lead to him having strong feelings for her(because it will for her.) But in reality, if he didn’t feel a connection to her before, he is more likely to view her as not in the relationship zone.
Monica Lewinsky is an interesting case of the feminists abandoning someone who grew up to follow all their examples. She was sexually free, unashamed of her multiple abortions, and aggressive. No man would want to marry her now unless he was raised in a cave somewhere and knew nothing about her. That is not at all in the best interest of women in general.
@erdos
I am not aware that anyone expressed sympathy for the woman in the post. If anything, she’s been derided for poor judgment and extreme denial. Women are indeed the gatekeepers and that’s the point of the post – don’t give it up for alpha asshats.
I’m sorry you think the descriptions of players are “retarded.” I’d be interested to hear your view of a more accurate, less cognitively challenged portrayal.
@Liza,
Haha, those three come up all the time on this blog! They really are the threesome that fascinates! To be honest, I have no idea what any of the parties feel, nor could I hope to. You’ve gotta figure every single thing written about them is just rumor and gossip. On the face of it, though, I’ll agree – Brad Pitt is the one who was disloyal. Which means that Angelina got a cheater in the bargain. Not such a great deal, in my view. Plus he has gone way downhill – that beard!
There are no “players”, outside of game practitioners. If it seems that men bedding multiple successive women without commitment is “player”-like behavior, that’s because it is, but a “player” true is an outlier; someone who isn’t obeying the held sexual ethics of the time. Today, there are no sexual ethics. No one is held to any standard by anyone else, not even their own parents, for what they do with their bodies and with whom. Even men who aren’t bedding anyone are essentially players as soon as they enter the world of ‘dating’ because that’s the only ethical mode they can possibly occupy in a culture that doesn’t supply constraint. Complaining that women are being hurt by ‘players’ would be honestly laughable were the truth not so tragic.
@erdos
Technically, a player is a man who uses deceit to get sex from a woman. Many women do supply their own constraints, and a player is a man who does not respect them, and will pretend real affection to dismantle them, only to leave her in pain after he is sexually satisfied. To say that all behavior is ethical because the culture doesn’t hold us to standards is the worst rationalization for selfishness I’ve ever heard.
Are you profoundly misreading what I’m writing here? I never said “all behavior is ethical” – my very point was that unethical behavior isn’t held in check by anyone, not even the government, meaning there’s effectively no ethics in the first place.
To further claim that “players” (I’m assuming you mean largely game practitioners) are getting sex via deceit is hilarious – is this the same Susan Walsh who thought a man should be snared into commitment by lying about your partner count? Women actively seek men with a history sans commitment, because it implies he has success with other women. If you then agree with me that women can’t be trusted to guard what’s between their legs of their own volition, then we have no further points of contention.
@erdos
I did not say men should be snared into commitment with a lie. I said that women have every right not to share that information, and to change their lives by changing their promiscuous behavior. I did say that speaking for myself only, I would not share a partner count of 36, which is what the woman in the post had. I also said that if a man couldn’t live with that, let the chips fall where they may.
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It’s true that women seek men with social proof. That is not the same as saying they seek men who never commit. The ideal man is one who every woman wants and one woman gets. I’ve written about social proof numerous times, and men seek it as well. In addition, recent research shows that both women and men disrespect men who are highly promiscuous. It’s the reverse double standard, and it’s very real. Many women reject manwhores. Women like the one in this post obviously don’t, but that is not true for all women, or even a majority.
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I do not agree that women can’t be trusted to make their own choices if you mean to include all women. In fact, many women learn from their mistakes, just as men do! Who knew?
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erdos, I don’t believe we’ve met before, and your input is welcome – however, you should know that the kind of language and tone welcome at many of the Game blogs is not really how we converse here. It’s mixed company, we’re all civil most of the time, and there’s no need for snide commentary. Just put your opinion out there and we can debate.
I’m fairly certain your exact words were: “If I were [a woman in a relationship broached about her partner count], I would not have told the truth”, but never mind. It’s quite immaterial to the issue at hand.
You’re not even being internally consistent. If “many women learn from their mistakes”, what’s the point of this blog? Why do women need any external moral guidance at all? Surely they can be trusted to muddle through?
I’m going to stress again for anyone reading this exchange that the idea that this is the fault of some small cabal of men is a massive misdirection on the part of women who want absolutely no responsibilities on their shoulders at all. Telling women to actively value fidelty and trust over transient pleasures is one thing, but painting them as victims of vampire-like lotharios is absurd and insulting. There isn’t even any indication that the girl in the original post is unhappy with her arrangement.
Here’s another thing. What’s the definition of “commitment” to a modern girl (incl. Susan Walsh and co)? Is it marriage? Obviously not: most girls’ heads would swell to fill a planet were an alpha to propose to them. Engagement?
What they really mean is something like a vague understanding between the man and the girl that their ‘relationship’ is monogamous, and perhaps cohabitation. Bear in mind what I’ve said so far about the total absence of punishment for or constraint over sexual transgressions. Can anyone explain why in the world a man would ever “commit” (modern definition) to a modern girl, who can leave or even cheat on him at any time without a single consequence? Hell, most girls have a chorus of friends who’ll cheer if she leaves her partner, no matter how sudden. What exactly do men have to gain out of this supposed promise of “commitment”?
@Athlone,
You and I have a different take on what constitutes knighthood. Since when is NOT slamming the door in some woman’s face considered an act of chivalry? Yeah, she might have been carrying boxes so high that she couldn’t see the door, but that’s on her. What’s on you is that you slammed the door.
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Your boys are ass hats, and they are actively screwing somebody over. I don’t expect you that you convince them that they should hold a door, but I would have expected you to nudge them towards not to slamming it so often.
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I gave the Monica Lewinsky and Clinton example for several reasons. One was that both of them had blame.
As you yourself said, “Incentives drive behavior”, yet it is not only women that offer incentives, it is also the guys you rack with and play along side. It’s not like I asked you to run into a burning building. I know, because I’ve been in similar situations as yours.
Good luck this season.
Hey! Hillary was a cute blonde when she was young. Have you seen her college pics? The good ones?
@Susan, “It means that by and large, there is a sexual double standard that is biologically driven. Most men have different short-term vs. long-term mating strategies. For short-term mating, they prefer women with a high sex drive and a high degree of sexual experience. For long-term mating, they prefer sexual inexperience, and seek reassurance that a woman will be satisfied with monogamy. For obvious reasons, women can’t be both. Do promiscuous women marry? Yes, sometimes.”
Promiscuous women marry all the time, if you count sex before marriage as “promiscuous”. The only places where this doesn’t happen is in highly religious and sex segregated cultures where marriages are arranged.
In mainstream America women ALSO make a distinction between short term and long term relationship men. Otherwise we would end up marrying a lot more men than we do.
I look back on my relationship history and I had no intention of marrying any of the men I dated – until I met my husband.
@Erdos
What exactly do men have to gain out of this supposed promise of “commitment”?
You have absolutely have no experience with good women, nor a decent imagination do you?
@erdos
“Here’s another thing. What’s the definition of “commitment” to a modern girl (incl. Susan Walsh and co)? Is it marriage? Obviously not: most girls’ heads would swell to fill a planet were an alpha to propose to them. Engagement?”
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Very good question. The whole purpose of this blog is to aid young women in making choices that lead to a man committing to them. But the terms of commitment are not really clear.
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That’s because commitment means different things to different people. To me commitment means marriage (that is, a boyfriend-girlfriend type relationship that is likely to end in marriage). When I’m dating a guy, I try to gauge whether I think he is ready for marriage or not. There are many indicators of this, for example if he answers the question “what do you want to do in life?” with “uhhh….i dunno…” or “well I have a major in art history so I was thinking I’d do that for a while…” Yeahhhh… ok. I usually end it then and there if I feel like it’s not going anywhere. I’m not interested in trying to change a guy’s mind. I’m only 19, but there’s no point wasting time, right?
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“Can anyone explain why in the world a man would ever “commit” (modern definition) to a modern girl, who can leave or even cheat on him at any time without a single consequence? ”
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Another good question. Answer: I don’t really care. The reasons for why a man wants to commit (my definition) are not important to me as long as he is ready to do so. Maybe you are not interested in marriage/commitment, but many men are. This is basically my “target group” in dating. I take relationships very seriously as you probably can tell, and I would only divorce as an absolute last resort if my spouse did something truly awful (infidelity, violence, etc.) I can’t answer for anyone else, but I’m basically looking for someone that feels the same way. Does that make sense?
@Seeds of Life,
Promiscuous is not equal to non virgin. Very few men would consider a woman with 1 partner before marriage to be promiscuous.
“You have absolutely have no experience with good women”
No, I haven’t
@chilli
What you’ve said is all well and fine, but caring personally why a man is prepared for monogamy and caring about the reasons men should foster a monogamous attitude in the current culture are two different things.
@Average Joe. There are very few mainstream American women who make it to the age of 21 having had only 1 sexual partner. We women can and do make distinctions between short-term and long-term male partners. Maureen Dowd must be very old and very out of touch.
@Chili
The reasons for why a man wants to commit (my definition) are not important to me as long as he is ready to do so.
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Well you need to start caring. What a man/men expect out commitment is important to whether he is happy with his relationship. If you don’t know his expectations, you are relying on blind luck to be a good partner.
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