The Importance of Location in Relationship Strategy

September 17, 2010


I'd move to Texas for some of this.

September is back-to-school month, but it’s also the time of year when graduating students move into high gear looking for a job. They’re attending information sessions, writing cover letters and networking in a frenzy of effort designed to land them a paying gig come June. In the current economy, not all will succeed, and beggars can’t be choosers. Still, young people usually do exercise some geographical preference. Whether it’s staying in your college town, moving home or venturing somewhere completely new, you probably have some idea of where you’d like to land as a young professional.

You should know that some places are far better than others for dating, depending on your gender.

Meghan Casserly writes in Forbes:

“New research out of The University of Michigan School of Public Health says to increase the odds of getting hitched, start by taking a look at the gender dynamics of your area. When men outnumber women, females marry younger and the age gap between spouses grows, the study, published in the journal Evolutionary Psychology, says.

Why? Not shockingly, the paper exposes a “truth” about men, women, and relationships: Men are more concerned with the number of sexual relationships they might have whereas women are more concerned with commitment. But when there aren’t enough women to go around, men tend to treat ladies as a scarce commodity, and their oat-sowing behavior is shut down by a need to snatch one up and call her his own.

In other words, it’s simply supply and demand. Daniel Kruger, the paper’s author put it this way: “When women are in the minority, they have greater bargaining power” to get the kind of commitment they want.”

From the study:

“When the OSR is male biased, available men outnumber available women and the greater degree of female choice will increase the male social status and resource potential necessary for securing female partners. A larger number of available males leads to an increase in female marital rates, and with greater bargaining power, women can secure mates with higher SES, higher fidelity, and a greater willingness to invest in offspring. Thus, men with lower SES may have an especially difficult time securing a marriage partner in male biased environments. However, a larger proportion of younger men are married in male biased populations compared to female biased populations, indicating a greater willingness for earlier commitment to long-term relationships.

In an environment where the OSR is female biased, males tend to pursue short-term mating as long as possible. The lower intrasexual competition associated with a relative shortage of male competitors allows them to decrease resource expenditures and avoid marital commitments. Males can continue short-term mating strategies much longer than in a less female biased population. The female biased OSR has been linked to increased divorce rates, family conflict, out-of-wedlock births, and violent crimes. In addition, women have greater difficulties in obtaining their first marriage.”

The study looked at the Operational Sex Ratio for the 50 largest Metropolitan Statistical Areas in the U.S. using 2000 Census data.*

Operational Sex Ratio = (# Sexually active males/ 100 Sexually receptive females) x 100

A ratio of 100 indicates perfect equilibrium. The locations with the lowest ORSs favor males, whereas women have the advantage in cities where the ORS > 100.

The bottom line?

Single Male Strategy

  • Go feast on the Southern Belles. The three most male deprived cities in the U.S. are in the deep South: Birmingham, Memphis and New Orleans. Other Southern delicacies may be found in Nashville, Richmond and Norfolk, VA and Raleigh-Durham. You’ll also hold your own and then some in Atlanta.
  • Head for the bright lights of the Eastern big cities. DC, Philadelphia, New York, and Boston all favor guys. So do Hartford and Providence.
  • If you’re committed to the Texas motherland, make it San Antonio. It’s the only Texas scene with more women than men.
  • If the Midwest farmer’s daughters really make you feel allright, head for St. Louis, Milwaukee or Kansas City.

Single Female Strategy

It’s all happening west of the Mississippi.

  • San Diego. Done. Beautiful, perfect climate, with an OSR of 115. If you can’t make it there, you can’t make it anywhere. With that many guys, you can even indulge in Tex Mex from time to time.
  • TEXAS. Austin tops the list at 112, and has an awesome singles scene by all accounts, especially for the ladies. Dallas and Houston are right up there as well. If you’re willing to consider switching your citizenship to Texas, you’ll significantly increase your odds of finding a hot, manly guy.
  • Get down with technology. Seattle and San Francisco are at 108. True, that San Francisco number includes some males who are not tuned in to sexually receptive females, but it also includes the Silicon Valley guys.
  • Denver is awesome and people rave about the lifestyle. Just be on the lookout for ski bums.
  • Cities with high OSRs that may actually not be the best place to find a man include LA (way too many hot women trying to get famous), Salt Lake City (unless you’re LDS) and Las Vegas (You’re not that kind of girl.) Alaska looks good, but if Levi Johnston is any indication, they breed them kinda dumb up there.

*Operational Sex Ratio for the 50 largest Metropolitan Statistical Areas

ORSORS
Birmingham, AL88Miami97
Memphis88Atlanta98
New Orleans89Chicago98
Richmond, VA89Kansas City98
NYC90Tampa99
NY-NJ92Oklahoma City99
Norfolk/Virginia Beach92Tulsa99
Philadelphia92Charlotte, NC100
Wash DC/Baltimore92Columbus100
Cleveland93Tucson100
Providence93Minneapolis102
St. Louis93Dallas103
San Antonio94Houston103
Louisville, KY95LA104
Boston96Orlando104
Buffalo, NY96Portland107
Hartford, CT96Alaska107
Milwaukee96San Francisco108
Nashville96Seattle108
Pittsburgh96Denver-Boulder109
Raleigh-Durham, NC96Phoenix111
Cincinnati97Austin, TX112
Detroit97Salt Lake City113
Indianapolis97San Diego115
Jacksonville, FL97Las Vegas116
Sacramento97
Rochester, NY97

If you want to maximize your value in today’s sexual marketplace, you need to make yourself scarce.  Your long-term objectives, i.e. diamond ring vs. Nuva ring, merit serious consideration as you ponder where to make yourself at home.

  • San Diego is indeed the worst place on the planet to be a single guy. My natural buddy lived there for a couple years and even he hardly got any.

  • GudEnuf

    Funny. A couple of DC area bloggers can’t quit complaining about how few cute girls there are in DC.

  • Funny. A couple of DC area bloggers can’t quit complaining about how few cute girls there are in DC.

    Yeah, that is pretty funny. It doesn’t help when you believe that any woman practicing law is a man eating bitch, and that all women who work for the government are stupid and lazy, coasting on the benefits of the Women’s Movement at the expense of good men everywhere.

  • Sox

    Funny. A couple of DC area bloggers can’t quit complaining about how few cute girls there are in DC.

    The ratio may favor men, but the average level of attractiveness does not.  That’ s saying a lot considering DC has one of the lowest obesity rates in the U.S.

  • clarence

    Hmm:
     
    An enlightening post Susan, and something I’ve seen to an extent on other blogs such as the former Seasons of Tumult and Discord.
    However, as a man it really is more complicated than this in some ways. For one you really do have to consider legal climate if  you are going to date and look for a long term relationship.
    For one, unless you are a player , stay away from Boston. Boston is in MA, and MA has lifetime alimony – it’s the only state that does so, and even marriages that have lasted less than 5 years have been placed into the LA bracket. And even a player should beware Massachusetts because  as is shown in the reports here
    http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/RADARreport-Ranking-of-States-DV-Laws.pdf
    Massachusetts is labeled as a “high risk” state for false accusations.
     
    I know the purpose of your blog is to get men and women to hook up in better ways preferrably in order to form long term relationships. Unfortunately location does matter as differing locations have different family laws and some states are quite honestly quite horrible places to raise a family in.  So I think it’s a bit simplistic to merely look at sex ratios when considering where to go.
    Speaking of which, it would be an interesting idea to run the fertility levels and/or divorce stats for different states and compare them to the categories in my linked to report. If you want, I’ll do that and get back to you.

    • @Clarence
      Of course you are right. As a resident of MA, I have heard incredible stories – second wives’ salaries being added in to compute new, higher alimony for first wives 15 years after a divorce. I know more than one woman who cohabitates rather than remarry just so the alimony stays intact. Our political climate is whacked in general, so it’s definitely something to consider before locating here. On the other hand, a very high percentage of college students here try to stay, despite all of this and a very high cost of living.
      .
      There will always be numerous factors that go into such a decision. Weather is a big one, and some people prefer very urban settings, others not so much. The level of education is also bound to vary. Hunky guys in CO may tend to be ranchers rather than researchers, for example. If I were single and open to relocating, I would consider all of these criteria and others, including location. With some digging you could probably get a pretty good handle on what each of the communities looks like demographically. Preferences will obviously vary – personally, my top three would be San Diego, Austin and Seattle. It’s really foolish, though, to just figure you’ll go wherever, only to find out that dating there is extremely difficult. Many, many women find this when they get to NYC, for example.

  • I wonder if there are 100 white men for every 92 white women in DC, or whether there may not be a preponderance of white men for white women in that area.
    My son attends a historically black university, with an OSR of 78.  Straight black men, even the doofiest,  do exceptionally well there.  White men, given black women’s preference for dating within their race, not so much.

  • In some parts of Alsaka boyfriends don’t get dumped, it’s more of a lose their place in line thing.

    • In some parts of Alsaka boyfriends don’t get dumped, it’s more of a lose their place in line thing.

      That might explain Bristol Palin’s inexplicable one day re-engagement to Levi.

  • Hope

    I got a slight chuckle out of the Salt Lake City comment. A lot of non-LDS men here seem to “import” their women from elsewhere. I moved here from out of state, as did many of my local female friends. My friend who just got married is from California, and her husband is from a native Utah family. My husband’s older cousin who grew up here actually met his wife in Finland!

    • @Hope
      BYU is one of the campuses with the least hooking up. They do hook up there, but it’s mild compared to elsewhere, and these are not the kids dodging their virginity pledges with anal sex. My high school outside of LA was 1/3 Mormon, and I’ll tell you, those kids were good looking and squeaky clean.

  • Thanx for the compliment Susan,
     
    Would you be interested in writing a post for my blog?  I could write a post for yours, it’d be a friendly trade off.
    Where do you get all these fascinating statistics.  I wouldn’t know about the gender ratio here in the bay.  However, if you like the music scene and hipsters I would definitely choose this place to build a fort.

    • @Jonathan Manor

      However, if you like the music scene and hipsters I would definitely choose this place to build a fort.

      Haha, I adore hipsters. I always have but now I’m even more entrenched in my position because there are so many haters. There’s a cashier at Whole Foods that I call Joe the Hipster, and I consider him a good luck charm. He’s a brooding loner, and never returns my cheerful smile, but I haven’t given up. This is the middle-aged version of going for the bad boys.
      .
      Re guest posting, sure why not. We can communicate offline if you like.

  • Brendan

    Indeed.  Location matters a lot.  That’s why we get people writing Game blogs from places like NYC and DC (which have low OSRs, therefore favoring Game), and people from high OSR places shaking their head and saying “but most of the people I know around here were married by 25”.  NOT in DC and NYC, they aren’t.  Location matters a LOT.

    • @Brendan
      I have a question – wouldn’t high OSR’s favor Game? In locations where the intrasexual competition among men is more intense, I would think Game would be a way for men to distinguish themselves. Although I can see that in an environment where the odds favor men, Game would enable guys to capitalize on the advantage in numbers. I guess what I’m saying is that Game is beneficial for men under all market conditions. Is this right?

  • Athlone McGinnis

    Good post.
     
    I’m writing from a hotel right now(our season opener is tomorrow and as a result I’m 8 hours way from campus) but as detached as I am from my school right now I can still see several ways in which this post resonates with my observations as a college student.
    The gender ratio is skewed here in favor of women, and you can see it in the way hooking up works out. Guys here end up working a lot harder for a lot less when it comes to getting hookups on an average weekend. Quite a few of them prefer to just keep the girlfriends they find off campus. Part of this is because this school is an Ivy, and these girls are all very smart(read: less likely to make an impulsive decision and hop into bed with you) and don’t party as much as other girls do. Add this to the fact that there are more guys here and you have a pretty frustrating situation for any dude on campus. You still can’t be a “nice guy”(restrained as they are, these girls dislike those types as much as anyone else) but if you try to go the typical cad/bro route you end up putting in 3 times as much effort as your bros out at state u. A lot of guys learn to just quit trying after a while.
    But when these guys leave and go back home? Suddenly they’re pulling girls left and right. Even I’ve found this in my hometown. Geography matters. The shift in demographics between my campus and my hometown makes all the difference, and suddenly I’m getting a lot more interest.
    Brendan already said this, but its a very good point so I’ll repeat it. Roissy and Roosh’s styles may seem ridiculous and cold, but they’re quite applicable in the environments they hang out in. I have a feeling that a lot of the cynical phenomena they spend so much time talking about(female cheating/hypergamy, cuckolding, alpha carousel, etc) are exaggerated greatly in those environments.

    • The shift in demographics between my campus and my hometown makes all the difference, and suddenly I’m getting a lot more interest.

      I am extremely pleased by this field report. Best of luck in your game tomorrow!

  • Rum

    I have lived in Austin. It is drop-dead gorgeous. Forget your image of Texas as somekind of desert. It looks like Northern California only with low taxes.
    The situation referred to of few guys & lots of girls really refers to the African Am. communities where huge numbers of guys are out of the picture because they are in prison. Just sayin.

  • VJ

    You missed DE, this lovely fruitcake is still Single! As seen on national TV!
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/09/mice_with_human_brains.php
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/christine_odonnells_sexual_evolution.php?ref=fpblt
     
    Now who could refuse a nice ‘re-virgin’ who rode hard way back when @ FDU with ‘guys she was not emotionally attached to’. We understand perfectly. When you’re spectacularly unglued? It’s hard to become attached to much of anything, but especially to like real live People too. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • @VJ
      I can’t resist posting this quote from one of your links:

      She practices what she preaches, she says. She’s had boyfriends, but they don’t last long when they realize her seriousness concerning chastity before marriage.

  • VJ

    Whoops, I meed this from this would be epitome of modern ‘reformed’ womanhood. Both the RW & the MRA community should luv her! Still single but never solvent after these many years…
    http://thinkprogress.org/christine-odonnell-record/
     
    Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • @VJ re the Think Progress Link
      There’s so much pure stupidity there that I wonder what on earth voters are thinking! Also, it’s most unfortunate that she’s chosen to channel Hillary Clinton as her sartorial fairy godmother.

  • Where’s the logic in being pro-abstinence yet anti-masterbation?  The two go hand in hand. 

  • nothingbutthetruth

    In this age of globalization, why limit oneself to the United States of America?
    Single Male Strategy.
    Get out of the Western world (especially, out of English-speaking countries).
    Single Female Strategy.
    Go to the Western world (especially, to English-speaking countries).
    See? It’s easy.
    Greetings from Central America.

  • It would be interesting to me to know what the breakdown is for Canadian cities – especially the big cities like Toronto
    @nothingbutthetruth – I’d think that if you were a single woman desperate to hook a guy you could go to China since they really do not have enough women to go around as a result of the one child only policy. I remember reading a big article about a year ago how men were even marrying cousins because of the shortage of available women.

    • @RT
      The authors of the study actually mentioned China, and they said estimates of the OSR vary from 119-130! This has led to a very disaffected male population, many of whom will not have the opportunity to marry. They’re expected as a result to have far fewer assets, and to be a huge drain on the social security system. Equilibrium is beneficial for a whole bunch of reasons – not the least of which is a healthy economy.

  • The Deuce

    @Susan

    I wonder what on earth voters are thinking!

    Probably something like: “Between the Marxist, the pro-Obamacare-mandate RINO, and the crazy lady, who is least likely to make my life significantly worse?”

  • Lisette

    @ Susan:  I thought O’Donnell was trying to dress like Sarah Palin, who is her *actual* fairy godmother.  See here:  http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20100917/LIFE/9170326/1005/Positively-Palinesque

  • Hope

    “She practices what she preaches, she says. She’s had boyfriends, but they don’t last long when they realize her seriousness concerning chastity before marriage.”

    The thing is, those boyfriends were probably annoyed that she is not an actual virgin who waited before marriage, but was a drunken partier who slept around in college. Not to mention she is both kind of dumb and Crusader-esque, as per the female archetypes post.

    Intelligent, 20-something virgins do pique men’s interest, although in one specific case I remember men were turned off by her seemingly frigid nature as far as vanilla sexual acts go. She was also very picky about men’s appearances, which didn’t help matters.

    It’s really a balance. If a girl is not going to offer sex up front physically, she should offer at least the reassurance that if things progress further in commitment, she will be very excited to do the real thing. A girl who can project that she is a sexual being who has good judgment and offer the guy “mental” sexiness, and that she will wait until when she is ready, will still get a commitment.

  • nothingbutthetruth

    Hope, you nailed it. Good men will respect a woman who keeps herself virgin because of her principles but she is nice, affectionate and supportive with them. Men are not the sex-crazy maniacs that are depicted in some circles.
    What men won’t endure is to be ripped off by a woman who had offered sex for free to lots of men and then, she wants you to wait until marriage because she has decided to “re-virgin” herself (as if this was possible).

  • “Men are not the sex-crazy maniacs that are depicted in some circles. What men won’t endure is to be ripped off by a woman who had offered sex for free to lots of men and then, she wants you to wait until marriage because she has decided to “re-virgin” herself (as if this was possible).”

     Does it work in the reverse as well? Should women trust men who are reformed playboys, pimps and players and now want to “re-nice-guy” themselves and attempt to settle down, or not?

  • I had another thought about locations and they way they can impact relationships and the like. I know it’s been discussed before, but I do think that the social climate of a particular area can have a huge influence on how relationships are formed. Say Bible Belt vs. West Coast or something like that. I also think the difference between the different sizes of cities and towns can have a large impact as well. A small town where everyone knows everyone else’s business probably isn’t going to really promote a hook-up culture. A large metropolis full of randoms will. Urban vs. rural is always a big difference in terms of the way society acts I find.
    .
    As to good men respecting virgins, etc. – I have discovered that with university students and anyone out of school, there’s an assumption that everyone’s done it at least once in some context or another. It’s a very interesting assumption to make about someone, and it’s one I run up against a great deal just even with friends. I think there is a genuine respect from the good guys for girls who have kept their v-card – either because they’re waiting specifically for marriage or just the right guy they can trust to respect them. Unfortunately, unless you want to really advertise yourself as being “untouched and pure” in a public way, most people will just assume you have had sex at some point.

    • Unfortunately, unless you want to really advertise yourself as being “untouched and pure” in a public way, most people will just assume you have had sex at some point.

      Well, assuming that you don’t want your sexual status discussed casually, this is a benefit that is really only going to be realized with someone you choose to become sexually involved with. A good man will indeed respect your choice and feel honored to qualify as your first.

  • Brendan

    I have a question – wouldn’t high OSR’s favor Game? In locations where the intrasexual competition among men is more intense, I would think Game would be a way for men to distinguish themselves. Although I can see that in an environment where the odds favor men, Game would enable guys to capitalize on the advantage in numbers. I guess what I’m saying is that Game is beneficial for men under all market conditions. Is this right?

    Susan —

    Yes.  I was thinking of Roissy/Roosh Game.  In a high OSR environment, women get to demand commitment, whereas in a low OSR environment (many college campuses), they don’t.  A different kind of Game is effective in each setting.  In a high OSR setting, a more subtle Game to make yourself more attractive can be effective, whereas Roissy Game probably will be less so because women get to demand commitment more readily.  In a low OSR setting (like DC, NYC, etc.), Roissy/Roosh Game is effective, because women do not get to demand commitment as readily.

    The problem I’ve always had with the OSR analyses, though, is that the market tends to be more segmented than the studies indicate.  So even in a place with a high “aggregate” OSR, certain sub-segments of the market may have a different OSR altogether.  In other words, we know what the overall OSR in Austin is, but we don’t know what the OSR is for the “Austin professionals” sub-segment is.  It may be the same, or it may not be.  Of course, whether the subsegment matters depends on what pond the men and women are fishing in — a professional man or woman might be fishing in the aggregate pond, or they might be fishing in one of the smaller, sub-ponds.
    Another issue is whether we should really be looking at the aggregate OSR in any case, or whether we need to be looking at the sex ratio (in terms of how it impacts what kind of demands women can make) on the basis of the pool of men the women are looking at and evaluating.  In other words, even in a place with a high aggregate OSR, it may be the number of “men on the radar screen” or the number of men who are actually attractive enough to be in consideration, is much smaller, so that the “effective” OSR, when we remove the men from the pool who are not making the attractiveness cut, may end up being below 1, such that women end up with less bargaining power anyway, even if the total number of men, including the unattractive ones, results in an OSR over 1.

  • @Lisette,

    Haha, you’re right! I hadn’t seen those photos – the red blazer with the gold lapel pin has to be deliberate! If her style of glasses changes soon, we’ll know for sure.

  • If a girl is not going to offer sex up front physically, she should offer at least the reassurance that if things progress further in commitment, she will be very excited to do the real thing.

    This has been stated by men here repeatedly. I forget the most recent suggestion but it was great – something like “If we wind up in a committed relationship, there will be all kinds of crazy sex coming your way.”

  • TeflonExpat

    Location Location Location.
    The following would enrage almost every American women, and especially feminists.  But so what?
    .
    I have traveled widely to Europe and Asia and I want to share this well-known observation – American feminist women have a terrible reputation among men around the world. They are widely perceived as obese, selfish, spoiled, boorish and emotionally demanding. They are also considered rather overbearing and hysterical. It’s well known amongst expat communities around the world that American feminist women are shunned by men outside of U.S.A.  
    .
    On the contrary, decent and well-off American men are generally viewed as the “cream of the crop” – highly coveted and desirable…. These gentlemen enjoy a great reputation among foreign ladies who perceive them to be respectful, nurturing, responsible, well-educated and financially secure. In addition, these women believe that American men make great husbands, especially in contrast to native men, who are often disrespectful, abusive and unfaithful. 
    .
    The problem in this country is that the “best in the world” are often paired up with the “worst in the world”…. a complete mismatch. It’s like a highschool Prom King dating an ugly, domineering and boorish girl. It’s very unlikely this type of relationship will work out. Sadly, this seems to be the case, as the marriages “made in America” have a higher divorce rate (55 to 60 percent) than in the cross-cultural marriages (15 to 20 percent). So why is risk of divorce so much lower when an American gentleman marries a “mail-order bride”? In a nutshell, it’s because our Prom King is marrying a Prom Queen, who is beautiful, intelligent, feminine, appreciative and devoted.  
    .
    A growing number of affluent American men are rejecting American feminist women and going overseas to embrace loverly, young foreign brides. A nearly fourfold increase in foreign women entering the U.S. on fiance(e) visas (over the last 7 years) supports this contention. It’s no secret that by pursuing foreign women, men can find much younger, more attractive and devoted partners than what’s available at home. 
    .
    Let me tell you about the relationship between my loverly Ecuadorian wife and myself. Despite our 21 year age difference, our relationship is based on mutual love and admiration…. our love is real and valid. Also, our bond is strengthened by our common interests, continual romance and mutual respect for each other. As with most Latin women, my wife is independent and has a strong will. Our relationship is a 50-50 equal partnership. There is no control and no domination.   
    .
    My experience, as described above, is very typical of most marriages to “mail-order brides” – in contrast to many marriages “made in America”, there are no bitchiness or nagging, no hysteria or drama and no belligerant or confrontational behaviors…. only mutual love and admiration.  
    .
    Therefore…., when a decent and affluent American gentleman marries a young, lovely foreign bride, what’s created is truly, a match made in heaven – the best matched with the best…. And IMBRA is really a vindictive and scornful feminist response to growing international romance.    

    *****

    I want to inform modern American feminists of this new reality: most American men do not want you. They do not want to date you and they certainly do not want to marry you. Do you know why? Because any relationships with you pose too much legal and financial risks to American men. The enormous risks of divorce and financial insolvency that men face when they marry you is no longer justified by paltry (often minimum) rewards that you bring to a marriage. Thus, you are being scorned and ignored by a growing number of affluent American men who prefer more feminine and traditional foreign women who offer youth, beauty and loyalty, the qualities you lack. These men realize that by marrying foreign women, they incur lower risk of divorce and greater probability of successful marriage and happiness. Therefore,… many of you will never marry or have children… you will end up old, un-married, completely childless… You need to understand that by depriving and denying your biological instinct to create, love and nurture a family, modern feminism has created a royal road to oblivion that ends with your emptiness, bitterness and despair. Whatever traits or value you carried in your genes will stop with you. No children, no legacy… When you die, you truly die. 
    .
    A growing number of men now make no apologies for rejecting any modern feminist women. The enormous risks incurred in marrying an American feminist are simply not justified by minimal or no rewards that these relationships bring. An American gentleman now has to walk through a minefield of risks including false abuse claims, financial bankrupcy (from divorce), and denial of child visitation rights. Thus, any intelligent and self-respecting man would reject this modern feminist paradigm of marriage. 

     

    • @TeflonExpat
      I think it’s great that you took real steps to find happiness and succeeded. I don’t doubt that many foreign women make excellent wives. However, I think you paint American women with too broad a brush. We’re not all feminist harpies. Furthermore, the divorce rate among college educated Americans is <20%. In the MRA sphere I believe that's referred to as a "consumption marriage," but it's a model that is as successful as the one you promote, and does not require leaving the United States or importing a stranger for marriage. Those strategies will never be employed by a significant number of men, for a whole host of reasons.

  • Having lived in both Dallas and (near) Denver one thing I think men should take into consideration is the beauty of the women.  Denver has a more plain look which can be somewhat striking if you aren’t already used to it.  Women in Dallas take great care about their looks.  This is of course a generalization and women on both extremes can be found in either city.
    Also, you are right that many people rave about the Denver lifestyle.  Everyone I know who still lives along the front range wouldn’t live anywhere else.  So if you like Denver, you will probably love it.  However, if you don’t like Denver you are pretty much SOL since there isn’t another city of note within a day’s drive.  The whole state of Colorado is pretty much in Denver’s sphere of influence, and the same is largely true even for neighboring states.  People who live in Cheyenne Wyoming root for the Denver Broncos and fly out of the Denver airport.  I enjoyed the time I spent in Colorado (about 14 years) very much but my wife couldn’t get out of there soon enough.
    If you don’t like Dallas, you can get a different flavor in one of the many smaller cities in the metroplex, or move over to the Fort Worth side.

  • Forgot to enable scripts to feel the comment luv!

  • filrabat

    I’ve lived in communities of many different size categories – from a rural Deep South county of less than 10,000 people to the city of Dallas, plus all size categories in between – I do appreciate the role geography plays in lifestyle opportunities (not just romantic and mating ones).
    However, it’s all too easy to get caught up in what a community as a whole is like while ignoring the “niche market” aspects of what is available. For example, under normal circumstances, people of different interests tend to congregate together. After all, they share common interests that foster easy, confident, and emotionally secure communication among the group’s members. I don’t have to tell you all how important communication is in relationships.
    For example, die-hard sports fans who live and breathe the sports spectator lifestyle, no matter where they are, are naturally going to be a rather “rah rah” type of group whose charisma and energy are going to look good on TV. Same thing for hard-core party animal types and the establishements they give business to. By contrast, people with more cerebrally-inclined interests also are going to gravitate toward each other. While this doesn’t take care of the so-called “nice guy” issue, it does give some clues about where you’re more likely to find that special someone. Even if you can’t find that special someone in that setting, chances are that, eventually, you’ll meet someone who can or will eventually introduce you to a special someone who is in that setting.
    None of the above guarantees you’ll ever meet a special someone, but concentrating on the non-sexual topics with someone you know and trust WILL boost your confidence and sharpen your social skills – important precedents to finding someone. BUT – the most important thing is to shove the desire for a guy or girl out of your mind as much as you can. The more you NEED a guy or girl in your life, the more likely you’ll come off as NEEDY – certainly an unattractive trait. Even if you don’t find that special someone, at least you’ll come ahead – namely by finding an activity or group that can replace a special someone.
    Contrary to popular opinion, it’s more important to be happy than it is to be hitched. This is the source of A LOT of romantic problems – a person is in a relationship with that wrong guy or girl, and they’re self-esteem is hooked on whether they can keep that person; no dobut due to societal propaganda that says you have to be able to hook-up in order to be respectworthy. The truth is that you’ll get a lot more respect (from intelligent, sensible people at least) when you can be happy without a relationship. After all, you have learned something that few people their age have done – deprogram yourself from the DNA/neurological based desire to have sex and/or love.
    Back to the topic: to reiterate, geography matters to a degree, but ONLY to the extent that certain mixes of personality types tend to congregate in certain places more than others. This holds true even for different places within a metro area, as evidenced by the attitudinal differences between small towns, suburbs, and “artsy bohemian hippiefied” central city neighborhoods that survived “white flight” and “middle class flight”. However, I think any metro area with at least a million people can offer a good chance for a person to find a special someone (or, better yet, happiness independent of a special someone) if they make even half an effort to get out and do something personally and community enriching.

  • filrabat

    Dalrock,
    Living in Dallas myself, I agree that a lot of women do try to look beautiful, and “all this” and “all that” in other ways.  HOWEVER, Dallas has the advantage of being a big city – easy to find other kinds of women too (although that’s not relevant to me, given I see no reason to be in a relationship due to my being committed child-free). Still, you are right to say that Ft. Worth is a bit more down-to-earth in this regard (though undobutedly they have their share of image snobs too)

    • @Dalrock, @filrabat
      You raise an interesting point. Depending on where you live, the definition of what men consider “hot” will vary. For example, as you’ve pointed out, women probably wear a lot less makeup in Colorado than Texas. In Southern California, blonde and tan women are strongly preferred. Many of the women considered beautiful in NYC have an edgy, anorexic look. A woman should consider what locales provide the greatest reward for her type of looks. It’s true for men as well – the first time I saw my husband, I was drawn to his rimless glasses and longish curly hair – because I’d just spent three years in LA dealing with overgrown surfer boys. Men’s looks are definitely evaluated differently by location as well.

  • The Deuce

    Susan:

    Yeah, that is pretty funny. It doesn’t help when you believe that any woman practicing law is a man eating bitch, and that all women who work for the government are stupid and lazy, coasting on the benefits of the Women’s Movement at the expense of good men everywhere.

    With the two oldest of my three little sisters (both of them married now, all of them brought up right) working for ONI in the DC area, I definitely don’t share this opinion.
    On the other hand, I do think it’s a problem that women disproportionately work in non-wealth-producing government jobs, jobs that are directly dependent upon government largess (like lawyers), or jobs that wouldn’t exist without government interference in the marketplace intended to increase women’s employment levels and salaries relative to men’s by pressuring companies to hire them and pay them more than they otherwise would under the law of supply and demand.
    That’s probably the main reason why cities that have a preponderance of such jobs have a higher proportion of women. I can’t unpack it all in one post, but together with the disproportionate number of women in college (caused primarily by the way feminists have made school a discouraging place for boys relative to girls – as you’ve described with your own son’s experiences), this phenomenon feeds into the hookup culture, the way college girls are often forced to choose between rolling with the cads or waiting years for awkward geeks to develop social proof and become attractive (if they ever do), the increase in single-motherhood and bastardy, the accelerating loss of American productivity, the delayed onset of manhood, the marriage strike, and the increasing awareness of and interest in Game.

    • @The Deuce
      Yes, I can certainly see where the resentment comes from. It’s ridiculous for women to get special treatment all the way through school, and then afterwards as well. At what point will this stop? How troubling do the trends have to become before elected leaders will call foul?
      That said, there are undoubtedly many attractive women in DC who come out of school and go to work for the State Dept., or on the Hill. Some of them will go to law school, and dismissing them all as a bunch of castrating harridans seems unfair, and self-defeating.

  • Höllenhund

    Roissy has stated that the importance of the sex ratio is way overrated by some:
    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/sausage-fest/

    • @Hollenhund
      That’s a pretty interesting post by Roissy.

      Men become irritable. Is a sausage fest a breeding ground for well-behaved Dads? Good lord, no. What usually happens is this: A small number of very smart men quickly assess the futility of the situation and bail for greener pastures. The rest drink to excess, gathering the courage to approach the one or two hot chicks in the room, only to discover that bitch shields are set at maximum deflection. Then the men become agitated, and oftentimes there is pushing and shoving, leading to fights. That’s when the women bail, because the atmosphere has gotten toxic. A few men remain behind for garbage hour, hoping to scrounge a scrap of snatch.

      However, this excerpt illustrates how he really deals with a subset of the population. Social scientists have observed for years, in many different countries, that the sociosexual ratio directly affects the marriage rate, as well as the age of marriage. Roissy inhabits, and addresses a world of men who are not marriageable.

  • clarence

    Susan@9:41:
     
    Well, overall you’ve done a very nuanced and good bit of posting lately.  I like how you’ve handled things in the Pareto principle thread, for instance. And my Swedish girl liked your archetypes stuff.
    But I am confused. Are you saying people don’t meet and date or meet and marry in bars? I’m almost ashamed to say it, but my parents did. Of course this was a small town and the time was the really early 70’s, but even so I’ve known quite a few relationships that started there though as you would expect MOST of them ended in disaster.
    As for PUA’s and marriage it partly depends on their ages and also what they think of current divorce and marital laws since evil men like me (heh) have been spreading around the facts about how risky ltr’s can be  in the west due to a relatively small set of lawyers and politicians. Older ones (30’s and 40’s) tend to have made up their minds, younger men aren’t interested in the question for the most part.
    I think Roissy is describing imbalanced gender ratios and how they tend to play out in the US club/bar scene. Not necessarily how they’d play out in a church group, or even in other societies where cultural, economic, and legal forces constrain women’s sexuality a bit more. I have to say that the US bar/club/college scene (heck , the ANGLO countries in general scenes to include say, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, NZ, and the norwegian peoples) is an example of female sexuality totally unleashed. There is literally no shaming for any behavior and its all now-now-now, mixed with lots of alchohol.

    • @Clarence
      Thanks! I absolutely don’t rule out meeting in bars. In fact, I’ve said before that I think it should be part of the rotation in a comprehensive strategy for meeting people. Alcohol is a social lubricant, and there’s nothing wrong with that in moderation. Obviously, when a behavior, e.g. sex with a stranger, requires massive drinking just to lose the inhibitions, we should question whether that’s such a good idea. For most people in their 20s, especially those in large metropolitan areas, going out with friends to bars is a fun way to meet people, though women should keep in mind that many men will not be in a “relationship” frame of mind in those settings. Online dating can also be part of the strategy. However, there are equally important strategies that should not be ignored: pursuing one’s own interests independently, being open to random encounters with strangers, actively networking with friends of friends.
      The relative weight of any of these strategies will vary with the individual. As you say, some people are more likely to socialize at church, others in bars. I do think bars can be difficult for women who are averse to casual sex. Their more liberal minded sisters will tend to exhibit sexual aggressiveness and draw most if not all of the attention from guys.

  • clarence

    WAAAAAAAAAH!!
    I wish there was a way to go back and edit posts. I’ve made alot of spelling and grammatical errors lately 🙁

    • I wish there was a way to go back and edit posts.

      I should be able to find a plugin for this, will investigate.

  • Höllenhund

    Ms. Walsh,
    ” sociosexual ratio ”
    ?
    “Those strategies will never be employed by a significant number of men, for a whole host of reasons.”
    Correct, but the ones most likely to use that strategy happen to be the best husband material so the effect will be larger than expected.

  • karen

    I do agree that location is crucial to meeting that special someone.  I’m currently in a location where most people my age are already married, in a serious relationship, or single parents (that includes the males here.)  Add to that the the number of college educated residents is small and you can understand my problem.  I’m the shy single girl who likes to have intellectual conversations from time to time but it is so hard to meet a guy with similar interests.  I’m trying to get a job in a city that is noted for having many single guys in my age range who are college educated.  With my experience I’ve accepted that I’m not going to meet that special someone in the demographics of my current location.

    • @Karen

      I’m trying to get a job in a city that is noted for having many single guys in my age range who are college educated.

      This is good strategy, and more women should seriously consider moving if they’re in an environment that is not conducive to meeting compatible men. I believe it’s fairly unusual to relocate for this reason, but it shouldn’t be for those single people for whom finding a life partner is a high priority. BTW, it goes without saying that before actually picking up and moving, some good research is required so that you can get a good feel for the demographics, culture, professional opportunities, etc.

  • Esmeralda Eskandarian

    This a great post!  It’s a good thing that I am planning to move to San Diego, Houston or Austin in the next couple of years or so.

    • Hi EE, welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. You probably can’t go wrong in any of those cities, but they will all have somewhat different vibes, so check it out thoroughly first!

  • Mike

    Does it work in the reverse as well? Should women trust men who are reformed playboys, pimps and players and now want to “re-nice-guy” themselves and attempt to settle down, or not?
    The honest answer to this IMO is probably not.  In a previous thread, someone referenced the “once a player always a player”.  I have no doubt whatsoever that sex partner count amongst men is correlated with future infidelity/cheating.
    That said, as WE ALREADY ESTABLISHED on the other thread (look at ALL the other female responses besides what you said) women will go for a “reformed player” type for a LTR/marriage because axiomatically a player type is someone who is attractive to women on perhaps numerous qualities whereas a promiscuous women may or may not be highly attractive to men as her main quality is simply “being willing”.

  • Mike

    A good man will indeed respect your choice and feel honored to qualify as your first.
    Just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with this.

  • J

     that all women who work for the government are stupid and lazy,

    Ironically, the most vocal promulgator of that notion is himself a former  government employee.

  • J

    As a resident of MA, I have heard incredible stories – second wives’ salaries being added in to compute new, higher alimony for first wives 15 years after a divorce.

    That’s ridiculously unfair.  It penalizes a third person who had nothing to do with the first marriage.

  • J

    @Teflon Expat

    And IMBRA is really a vindictive and scornful feminist response to growing international romance. 

    There was a NatGeo special called Email Order Brides that can still be viewed on Youtube.  It interviews a number of brides from the FSU and their American husbands as well as detailing the circumstances that lead up to the passing of IMBRA.  Apparently, there was murder of an 18 year old Russian bride by an American husband twice her age who had a previous record of criminally abusing women.  The show gave the impression that IMBRA was passed, at the urging of the Russian and other governments, to prevent men with records of violent crimes from killing their citizens.  From that perspective, it’s not a bad idea.  If these women are being asked to marry total strangers who may not even speak the same language, it’s not unreasonable to do a background check.  I know I’d feel more secure if I were one of those foreign brides.

    I’m glad that you and your wife have found happiness together, but frankly the women and marriages on  the show didn’t look too happy to me.   The women either looked like out and out golddiggers or women desperate to escape poverty and abuse in areas were decent and sober men were a rarity.  I’ve also know IRL international couples in which the primary motivation of the foreign partner was obtaining an American passport.  It seems a rather risky way to find a mate to me.

  • J

    @Dalrock

    What didn’t Mrs. D like about Denver? 

    My husband has been there on business many times loves the area so much that he plays with the idea of getting himself transferred out there.  We vacationed there once, and I thought it was breath-taking.  I’d love to know Mrs. D’s take on Denver.

  • How troubling do the trends have to become before elected leaders will call foul?

    When a hangman’s noose is being prepared for them and not a second before.

  • clarence

    J, and everyone on the IMBRA:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMBRA
    Most people men can’t take advantage of marriage brokers even if they wanted to. But for the minority who can afford the fees and hassles of trying to get a foreign bride, it is a slap in the face. Crimes of the few being used to smear the many, that sort of thing. The domestic violence thing would be troublesome, except they limited it to convictions in a court of law, not the more commonly sworn out “restraining orders” which require no proof or trial so presumably only really bad guys have to worry.
    And of course, as is pointed out in the article this only applies to pay sites, so if you meet through any other electronic means of communication you are free to do so without all the hassle.
    Some speculate that this was a pre-emptive strike to ensure that American women will never have to compete with any significant numbers of foreign women. I don’t think that makes much sense as not only are their loopholes within the act itself,  but most of the people who would be able to get foreign brides before will still be able to get them through either a broker or by bypassing the process altogether. A foreign bride isn’t necesarrily a panacea anyway. She has plenty of  incentives to:
    A. Make false allegations of DV to get her citizenship expedited
    B. Marry for money or for citizenship
    C. Have a kid, divorce and leave the country taking the kid with her. International laws are often a minefield for enforcing child custody decisions.
     

  • clarence

    Oops never mind.
    From the Act:
    Any temporary or permanent civil protection
    order or restraining order issued against the United
    States client.
    (ii) Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction
    of the United States client for homicide, murder, manslaughter,
    assault, battery, domestic violence, rape,
    sexual assault, abusive sexual contact, sexual exploitation,
    incest, child abuse or neglect, torture, trafficking,
    peonage, holding hostage, involuntary servitude,
    slave trade, kidnapping, abduction, unlawful
    criminal restraint, false imprisonment, or stalking.
    (iii) Any Federal, State, or local arrest or conviction
    of the United States client for—
    (I) solely, principally, or incidentally engaging
    in prostitution;
    (II) a direct or indirect attempt to procure
    prostitutes or persons for the purpose of prostitution
    Notice the temporary or permanent CIVIL protection order..
    And notice the arrests (not even  convictions but mere arrests) for things such as attempting to procure a prostitute. Not being a pimp, mind you but merely trying to get the services of one. So if you are a sexual loser or you just prefer “paying up front” you are shoved into a category with people who murder women. Classy.
    Never mind, this act is an abomination.

  • J

    Crimes of the few being used to smear the many, that sort of thing.

    I understand your point, but if the law saves one life, it’s worth the inconvenience in my book.  I can sympathize with people who are having difficulty in finding a mate here in the US and go abroad in order to broadened the net.  OTOH, I think the practice is fraught with risk.  I come from a family that still maintains ties with other relatives in the “old country.”  I’ve seen lots of international marriages go sour.  On the American side, I think the primary danger is being used for an American passport.  My father was once approached about such a match for me and laughed in the face of those offering it.   On the foriegn side, especially if the deal isn’t brokered by relatives, there’s a big chance of abuse.  After all, in most cases, a woman is being asked to come to a country where she has no contacts, probably doesn’t speak the language, can easily be isolated and may be casting her lot someone who may be angry and bitter about past lack of success with women.  A background check, which replaces the usual getting to know the man’s friends and family that happens in a local relationship, isn’t much to ask.

    And of course, as is pointed out in the article this only applies to pay sites,

    I would not be surprised if some pay sites are tied up with the Russian mafia or other similar groups.  The law no doubt is not intend to regulate relationships where a third party was not involved or where there was no profit motive.

  • J

    And notice the arrests (not even  convictions but mere arrests) for things such as attempting to procure a prostitute. Not being a pimp, mind you but merely trying to get the services of one. So if you are a sexual loser or you just prefer “paying up front” you are shoved into a category with people who murder women.

    I have very mixed feeling about prostitution.  While I would not lump clients in with pimps, and cetainly NOT with murders, I don’t think prostitution is a wholly victimless crime.  For a few brief months before the recession hit, I had, for the first time in my life, a cleaning lady.  She got cancer and sent in a friend of hers to substitute.  Over the course of a few weeks I heard this woman’s life story.  Sexually abused by her own alcoholic father, she ran away from home at 16 with little money in her book.  A pimp picked her the minute she got off the bus from the trailer park in the farm town she came from.  Her got her trust, got her high, sexually abused her and turned her out on the street.  She was a recovering drug addict/alcoholic when she worked for me.  She never have a fighting chance at a decent life.  Clients, while obviously not directly responsible like pimps and prostitutes, do end up providing a market for that sort of exploitation.

  • J

    Here is a link to the Nat Geo special:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7cM_6q4FeA

  • J

     I’m almost ashamed to say it, but my parents did. Of course this was a small town and the time was the really early 70′s, but even so I’ve known quite a few relationships that started there though as you would expect MOST of them ended in disaster.

    I was introduced to my husband in a bar at the b’day party of a friend of a friend.  It was really kismet as I had never been in the bar before and hadn’t really wanted to go to the party. My husband checked out my previous history at the bar (or rather my lack thereof)  with some of the regulars BEFORE he manuevered an introduction to me.  But that was almost 25 years ago and even then you didn’t expect to find your future husband in a bar.

  • TeflonExpat

    Re: IMBRA. Let’s be clear. Nobody is opposed to background checks when considering a relationship. But why is a woman, who lives half a world away, not permitted to say hello to an american man until she receives all his personal information? And by the way, Match.com has a huge and profitable international website yet they were expressly excluded from IMBRA. Hmmmmmm

  • @J
    What didn’t Mrs. D like about Denver?
    It is tough to explain.  Part of it was personal for her.  But overall the best way I can explain it is Denver is very much the center of it’s own universe.  This isn’t necessarily a bad thing though.  But it doesn’t have any sort of regular exchange from another major metropolitan area.  If you and your husband lived there and decided to take a road trip (pick a direction), you would probably still get the Denver channels on the motel TV (and the person at the motel front desk would likely be wearing a Broncos jersey) even after you cross state lines.
    As I said I enjoyed my time there very much, and I really do miss the Elk hunting especially.  Good people, beautiful scenery, and generally mild weather (for a place which gets snow).  I still keep in touch with good friends there, and many of my work colleagues are located along the Front Range.I would say just make sure it is what you want before transferring.  Good advice with any move, but especially important there.
    Oh, and if you do move just remember to follow the party line on these key issues.  🙂
    1)  You support the Broncos unconditionally, and you care deeply about everything the players do on and off the field (including the player’s wives).  You don’t have to care at all about football in general, but you must support the Broncos.  The proper response to hearing about the any action by a member of the team is to say it’s a good thing he did that, a real good thing.
    2)  Immediately establish a shrine in a prominent location in your home to John Elway.
    3)  Colorado is the only place in the world you could ever live.
    4)  You hate Texans*.
    *When I first moved to CO from Los Angeles I remember riding in a local’s car on a windy mountain road in the winter.  The driver pulled over to check out a jeep which had just gone off the road into a fairly deep ditch.  He got back in after seeing the plates on the jeep and drove off saying:  Texans.  Everyone in the car but me nodded in full understanding of the statement.  More recently when back in CO for a hunting trip I heard a car insurance commercial on the radio which talked about a Texan loosing control on the slopes and skiing into a parked car.  “Don’t worry, the car wasn’t damaged”.  Interestingly this rivalry is only one direction.  Texans have nothing but good things to say about Colorado and its people.  And Colorado advertises quite often for tourism in Dallas.

    • @Dalrock

      I remember when NY celebrated the centennial of the Brooklyn Bridge:
      and the Philadelphia Inquirer ran an editorial saying the Ben Franklin Bridge is just as good:
      I think there is such a thing as a geographical inferiority complex.

  • @J
    .
    My husband checked out my previous history at the bar (or rather my lack thereof)  with some of the regulars BEFORE he maneuvered an introduction to me.
    .
    I had an exchange in the comments section of this site on one of the slut power/Amanda Marcotte posts with a woman who insisted that her sexual history had never hindered her with men.  My response was that this isn’t the kind of thing men express out in the open, and made the analogy to a home which stayed on the market for over a year due to tacky wallpaper in the kitchen even though no one ever told the sellers they had a problem with it.  Potential buyers just drove on and found something they liked better.  When I low-balled my bid on the home I didn’t mention the wallpaper.  They didn’t mention it when they accepted my offer either.  They lost 10k and a year’s mortgage payments over something they likely were entirely unaware of.

  • J

    @Teflon

    But why is a woman, who lives half a world away, not permitted to say hello to an american man until she receives all his personal information?

    I think she is as long as that hello isn’t mediated by a for profit matching service.  What’s to stop you from setting up a blog that accomplishes the same?  As long as there wasn’t a fee, I don’t think IMBRA would have an effect on it.

    And by the way, Match.com has a huge and profitable international website yet they were expressly excluded from IMBRA. Hmmmmmm

    Here I assume that it’s because Match is US-based and factors like theRussian mafia aren’t applicable.  But even here, a background check is an extra layer of protection.  I’d bet that a service that required one would do a profitable business because desperate people do get fleeced by people they meet on-line and it’s helpful to weed out gigolos and golddiggers.  If I were to become single somehow (Happy, Dalrock? 😉 ), I’d prefer such a service to one that didn’t require background checks.  I have not just myself but kids to protect. 

    OTOH, I’d be more likely to find a new guy through existing social connections like friends, family, group memberships, etc.  That too is pre-screening.

    An anecdote:  Before the internet, a friend of mine met a divorced guy through a dating  service.  I double-dated with them and a friend of his a few times.  My friend’s relationship with the divorced guy broke up when he was charged with taking indecent pictures of his daughter.  After that I really felt uncomfortable with the friend and that also ended.

  • J

    I had an exchange in the comments section of this site on one of the slut power/Amanda Marcotte posts with a woman who insisted that her sexual history had never hindered her with men. 

    I thnk it depends on what a man is looking for.  My DH was looking to settle down, not waste time with bar girls.  Perhaps he’d have been less picky five years before.

    OTOH, he has never asked me for a number as seems to common practice in the manosphere.  He knows a lot of my relationship history as we exchanged tales of woe, but he doesn’t have the notion that not being a virgin predisposes a woman to cheat or divorce.  I think he was essentially satisfied with my character and didn’t want/need details.

  • TeflonExpat

    @J: why is a foreign woman who uses an IMBRA-targeted site required to receive an American man’s background information BEFORE being permitted to say or write HELLO to him. Why is there a condition for free speech communication?
    .
    Here is the authority on IMBRA: http://www.onlinedatingrights.com

  • J

    @Teflon

    Why is there a condition for free speech communication?

    I’m no lawyer, but I’d  assume this is a legally permissible area in which to limit free speech because a safety issue is involved.  You know, like not yelling fire in a crowded theater?  Americans have never had unlimited free speech.  There have always been conditions. If you think it’s unconstitutionally perhaps you should find a like-minded group of men and challenge the constitutionality of the law with a class action suit.  

  • It’s because of sex slave traffiking, Teflon.  If the guy is clean, he has nothing to worry about and neither does she.

  • (r)Evolutionary

    @Dalrock & Susan,
    There’s been much discussion of places with female-skewed OSR, and a fair bit of discussion on the merits of Denver. I agree, it’s got great character, but Dalrock’s Broncomania posts are a bit over the top. It’s not quite as widespread as he states.

    The real bonanza of single men won’t be found on the Front Range, but closer to the Continental Divide. Most or all of the mountain towns in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho, are chock full of single men. Many of these are resort towns with rich nightlife, great restaurants & food, all of the cultural amenities of big cities, and the cost of living to match. But these are great towns, filled with men.  Epodunk.com lists the OSR of Breckenridge, CO at somewhere near 150 men to 100 women. Other towns with similar ratios in Colorado: Aspen, Steamboat Springs, Telluride, Vail, and Crested Butte. Outside Colorado, you have Jackson, WY, Sandpoint, ID, Truckee-Tahoe, CA… the list goes on & on, and many of these towns have similar vibes.
    Having spent some time living & working in these towns, the OSR effect here is massively strong. Dalrock’s comment about not breaking up with your girlfriend, but losing your turn, they hold true in many of these places.  Worse (for men) and amazing for women, the SMV for women goes through the roof, so much so that, as the saying goes, “sixes become nines.”   A cute girl in these towns literally has her pick of many, many potential suitors.
    On the other hand, the women of Mountain Country tell me that “the odds are good, but the goods are odd.” Meaning that there may be a slew of men available, but some of those men are hard-drinking snowboard brew-bros (the mountain equivalent of the beach bum), or rugged, somewhat unkempt mountain men. More than a few men and women in the Mountain zone are afflicted with “Peter Pan” Syndrome, wherein  they refuse to grow up & have a “normal” life. This can be great, or not, depending on your perspective.
    I bring this up mostly because women seeking a mate will do well in these towns, and God knows these towns could use an influx of females.

    • On the other hand, the women of Mountain Country tell me that “the odds are good, but the goods are odd.” Meaning that there may be a slew of men available, but some of those men are hard-drinking snowboard brew-bros (the mountain equivalent of the beach bum), or rugged, somewhat unkempt mountain men. More than a few men and women in the Mountain zone are afflicted with “Peter Pan” Syndrome, wherein they refuse to grow up & have a “normal” life.

      That’s why I said to look out for ski bums. I’ve spent some time in Steamboat Springs, which I really like. But when you take away the ski bums, you’re talking about ranchers, mostly. I think it might be pretty hard for a woman to even get a job in a place like that. However, if you can swing it – say practice law or some other independent venture in a community such as this, and you go for the rugged manly type, it could be nirvana!

  • TeflonExpat

    @J: how does NOT providing UPFRONT background information BEFORE saying hello to a woman half way around the planet constitute a safety issue?

  • ExNewYorker

    @J:
    “OTOH, he has never asked me for a number as seems to common practice in the manosphere.”
    For those of us for whom such a number is an important “red flag indicator”, we’re obviously going to be a little subtle about how we go find out such information, including observation of friends, relatives, etc.  The larger number cases are fairly easy to spot, especially since they tend to go along with other common behaviors…

  • @(r)Evolutionary
    .
    Dalrock’s Broncomania posts are a bit over the top. It’s not quite as widespread as he states.
    .
    I may have slightly exaggerated the degree of Bronco worship in the state.  🙂

  • @J
    I thnk it depends on what a man is looking for.  My DH was looking to settle down, not waste time with bar girls.  Perhaps he’d have been less picky five years before.
    OTOH, he has never asked me for a number as seems to common practice in the manosphere.
    .
    My point was you never know who you might turn away.  Had your husband received a different answer, from what he told you you wouldn’t have ever met him.  Instead of a happily married mother of two wonderful sons, you could theoretically be another single woman on this board telling young women that men don’t care about your number so they may as well slut while the slutting is good.  And if we hooked this alternate universe you up to a lie detector she would pass because she would have no idea that the man of her dreams had joined into another conversation instead of approaching her that otherwise uneventful day all of those years ago.  Mind you I’m talking about a theoretical J, because I know the men are lined up around the block with engagement rings in hand should an opening appear.  But not all women are so fortunate.

  • J

     how does NOT providing UPFRONT background information BEFORE saying hello to a woman half way around the planet constitute a safety issue?

    I think both Tennis Pro and I explained what we though the intent of the law was above.

  • J

    For those of us for whom such a number is an important “red flag indicator”, we’re obviously going to be a little subtle about how we go find out such information, including observation of friends, relatives, etc.  The larger number cases are fairly easy to spot, especially since they tend to go along with other common behaviors…

    Oh, I’m sure he did that–as did I.  A man’s character is a big issue for me.

    I think observation of friends, relatives, etc.  and of the common behaviors that go with the numbers are a better clue to character than the actual number. 

  • @J
    I think observation of friends, relatives, etc.  and of the common behaviors that go with the numbers are a better clue to character than the actual number.
    .
    I would say we are in agreement here (once again).  But I think the actual count does matter because it is so easy for anyone to rationalize their choices.  A girl who thinks she isn’t gaining a reputation because she lies to herself about her number or has a great justification is in the same boat as the guy who thinks no one can tell he’s a pothead because he swears he only smokes on special occasions (like waking up).  Somehow he changes in ways he can’t himself identify, but others who have never met him notice.  And anyone who spends some time in or near his circle will quickly understand who he really is.

  • J

    Hi D–

    My point was you never know who you might turn away. 

    No, I understood.  I just don’t see the number as primary.

    Had your husband received a different answer, from what he told you you wouldn’t have ever met him

    That’s quite true.

     Instead of a happily married mother of two wonderful sons,

    There’s a horrifying possibility… 😉

    you could theoretically be another single woman on this board telling young women that men don’t care about your number so they may as well slut while the slutting is good. 

    I know.  My point was though that there is no magic number that is the disqualifer.  I think that high numbers often correlate with future problems but I’m not sure I buy the Heritage Foundation study’s finding one previous partner ups your odds of divorce that significantly.

    And if we hooked this alternate universe you up to a lie detector she would pass because she would have no idea that the man of her dreams had joined into another conversation instead of approaching her that otherwise uneventful day all of those years ago

    Absolutely.

    Mind you I’m talking about a theoretical J, because I know the men are lined up around the block with engagement rings in hand should an opening appear. 

    LOL.  That’s sweet!

    I think half of my cachet with the over 50 set comes from the fact that I do have a stable marriage and good kids that can be relied on to be helpful and responsible in a way that’s visible it our community.  In the right circumstances, it’s tremendous social proof.  In the past few years, I’ve seen many 60+ year old widows of well-respected men in my community pair up with a new husband after a year or so.  I used to be amazed by it, but right now I’m even seeing an older friend of mine who recently lost her husband of nearly 50 years being approached by old widowers.  It’s really weird for her.

    You gotta pick your demographic. I wouldn’t do as well at bar nowadays as I did back then.  Then again, I wouldn’t want to start hanging around bars at this point in my life, even as cougarific as I am. 😉 

  • J

    A girl who thinks she isn’t gaining a reputation because she lies to herself about her number or has a great justification is in the same boat as the guy who thinks no one can tell he’s a pothead because he swears he only smokes on special occasions (like waking up). 

    Oh Dalrock, I’m so tired, and I’m laughing so hysterically at the bolded comment.  I just can’t think of an intelligent response to that.  I’m going to bed.  See ya.

  • Kurt

    Susan, have you written any posts about the importance of where men meet women?  I have noticed that when I am at my gym I tend to attract women far better-looking than those who I have ever met at a bar or anywhere else (my gym is somewhat upscale, so maybe women do join to meet guys).

    • I have noticed that when I am at my gym I tend to attract women far better-looking than those who I have ever met at a bar or anywhere else (my gym is somewhat upscale, so maybe women do join to meet guys).

      Hmmmm, interesting. I haven’t ever considered that women may be more attractive in one venue vs. another. It may be that at the gym you’re appealing to women with similar interest in fitness, exercise, etc. In other words, you’re a self-selected group with something in common. I don’t know – perhaps an artist would feel that the hottest women he meets are in art school? Or a hipster likes chicks with nose rings?

  • teflonexpat

    Bottom line: unrestrained loose women are a vast minority in the world. If you don’t want one, they’re easy to avoid (and spot). Via for-profit imbra snubbing FOREIGN BASED match.com international you can have the pick of the litter. All others can lie in the beds they have made…alone.

  • nothingbutthetruth

    TeflonExpat nailed it. I am an expat too so I understand him very well.
    .
    And when he wrote about his Ecuadorian wife, I felt like he was talking about my Central American girlfriend (and soon fiancee). Every day is a new day of mutual love and admiration. I try to do my best with her. And she tries to do her best with me. I care for her. She cares for me. We are a team. We are mates not rivals.
    .
    My love for her was not a love at first sight (she is attractive but not the hottest woman in the world). But her inside is wonderful: her goodness, her ability to love and nurture (not only me but everybody around her), her inner peace and happiness are amazing.
    .
    Try this with an American woman! Ha! This is why they are so miserable. They don’t give themselves permission to love. Love is unconditional and American woman are always thinking about power (feminism) and status (alpha-chasing or landing a beta provider). Love is selfless and American woman are always about “ME!ME!ME!”

  • TeflonExpat

    There are American women who are marriage worthy.  But why strain yourself to find her?  The weeding out.  That needle in the haystack.  Better to go to the needle factory!  Why be trapped in this birth-control petri dish; a victim of feminist experimentation?  Tell any American woman that you are dating or are interested in having a loving family with a young Central American woman – the reaction will be negative and accompanied by scowling looks.  Like shame on you; how could you.   Now what does that reveal about American women?

  • @NBTT

    I recall you saying that your girlfriend is accepting of the fact that you have sex with other people because you prefer variety. If you plan to continue that practice even after marriage, I would agree that you were very wise to find a woman outside the U.S. There might be a small number who would agree to such an arrangement, but very few. This “benefit” offered by foreign women is rarely mentioned as a reason to expatriate.

  • Kurt

    Susan, I think you are correct about the self-selection of the women I see at my gym. 
    I don’t think that most men really realize how important it is to be in the right environment to meet the best possible women.  If men try to meet women at bars or other mixer-type events where the men are interacting with women whom they have never met, the odds are stacked against most men and are in favor of the women – the women are on guard and can afford to make men jump through hoops to win their interest.
    Maybe if men can meet women in an environment where it is clear that they have at least one important mutual interest, interested women will make it easy for the men whom they like.

    • @Kurt
      I think this is key – focusing on mutual interests. I think it makes things easier for both sexes, because you start out with at least one major thing in common. The gym is a great place, provided that all the women don’t hang out together on the elliptical while all the guys lift free weights.

  • nothingbutthetruth

    Susan, most foreign women are not willing to enter this arrangement either. This is not a reason to prefer foreign women because, in this aspect, they are mostly the same than American women. They want men to be faithful. So it is rarely mentioned as a reason to expatriate because it is simply not true. My girlfriend is a rarity in this respect (although the more I know her, the less I want to know other women. Today I have had really awful news and the way he has stood at my side unconditionally (but leaving me space) has been amazing. I don’t have words in English to express all the details.).
    .
    But, leaving aside the variety thing,  foreign women will love you in a way that American men who only know American women can only dream of. Of course, there are foreign women who are really bad partners. But, if the saying is something like:
    .
    “When you try a black, you never go back” (I don’t know whether it is true but a female friend of mine who only dates blacks agrees enthusiastically).
    .
    “When you try a foreign woman, you never go back”.
    .
    It is not that foreign women have some mysterious gene. It is that feminism, entitlement and Hollywood fantasies have spoilt American women so badly that they are different from their foremothers and from women around the world. But it is hard to spot craziness in a society where everybody is crazy (http://yawandmog.wordpress.com/2003/06/12/kahlil-gibran-the-wise-king/)

    • @NBTT
      I won’t argue with you about American culture – it really is crazy, and we value all the wrong things. I admit I am really pleased to hear that you treasure your gf. She may allow you your freedom, but I’m sure she will be happier if you choose to be monogamous with her.

  • nothingbutthetruth

    Yes, I know that. I am thinking about that.

  • Charlene

    This is a very enlightening post indeed. Those statistics and precise information I would say is mind-blowing. Although I do not live in America myself, i do agree that location does matter when it comes to hooking up. Different places produce people of different kinds, thus leading to different lifestyles, personalities and what not.
    Enjoy reading your post. Cheers