Michigan Undergrads
Every so often I need to remind myself that not all readers here have been around a while. I hear regularly from college freshmen women who are new to Hooking Up Smart. They’ve been on campus for about a month now, and they’re undoubtedly enjoying the attention that comes from being the flavor of the week. Today I found an interesting editorial at Consider, a student-run blog at the University of Michigan. It asks whether hooking up is worth it, and includes two differing views.
The first article is Genuine Sexual Power written by Mark Regnerus, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Texas at Austin. He is the author of Premarital Sex in America: How Young Americans Meet, Mate, and Think about Marrying (Oxford University Press, 2011.)
He cuts straight to the chase:
“Let’s start by being honest. The question about whether hooking up is a good idea, whether it is sex-positive or not, is largely a question for women. They’re the ones who must weigh what they want with what they can hope for in today’s competitive market for relationships. Most women prefer something more than hooking up…Men, on the other hand, seem largely fine with hooking up, since their interest in sex has always been—and will always be—elevated. Relationships can wait.”
He goes on to describe a Duke student interviewed for Rolling Stone’s 2006 article Sex and Scandal at Duke:
“For her, the script was to hang out, meet men at social functions, hookup, and—if she finds herself with a particular man for an extended period of time—eventually ask him to clarify their status. How passive and powerless. How bizarre.
Honestly. Do women really like it this way? Some say they do. Most don’t.
Some women think that power is found in generating male desire.
On the contrary, most women with a pulse can generate some male desire.
Or perhaps, power is found in having sex whenever and however she wants.
Again, that’s not power; that’s just reality.”
What’s most interesting though, is his short-term prognosis, and his advice to women:
“By now, however, the hookup norm is not so easily altered. Most women don’t know how to work around it, or they fear that in doing so, men will ignore them. So plenty acquiesce. They try to put a good face on it. They tell each other things like, “it’s all good,” even when it’s not.
Unfortunately, the prospect that women will collectively demand that men actually treat them well in order for the privilege of being in her company isn’t likely anytime soon.
In part that’s because women no longer need men. Like them? Yes. Need them? No.
Back when they did, women protected and policed each other in the domain of relationships.
(SW: Currently known as slut-shaming.)
This, of course, is no longer the case. Women who prefer commitment and security in their sexual relationships now can only hope for it. Not much power in that.
What to do? Give in and hook up? You can, and many will. But I wouldn’t recommend it. While I can’t assure that the road ahead to a stable relationship is guaranteed, women would do well to remember men’s secret. They want you. Badly. If women remember that sex has considerable “exchange value,” they are more apt to get what they want: security, responsibility, attention, affection, exclusivity, and commitment. That is power. It won’t be easy, since the numbers aren’t in their favor. But to give up and hookup will guarantee only sex. And that isn’t much of an accomplishment.
And now, on the other side of the ring, we have Tabitha Berry, a recent U of M grad with a degree in Creative Writing. She is a sex-positive feminist with strong interests in gender and sexuality. (What is it with sex pozzies and Creative Writing? Check out this tale (hat tip to Snowdrop): In Professor-Dominatrix Scandal, U. of New Mexico Feels the Pain.) Berry’s piece is entitled Hooking Up, Ladies, and Why Everyone Seriously Needs to Shut Up Already.
“The quibbling about whether “hooking up is good for today’s young women” is not only ridiculous, but also offensive. First, there is no one response that will apply to every woman. Secondly, as I often yell at the authors of articles and books on the subject: “Seriously? Do I know you? Do you know me? I’m fairly certain I count as a human being and, as such, I’m going to ask you to leave me to my business, regardless of what you think.”
I don’t want to come out screaming that hooking up is just dandy and what-are-you-on-about-leave-us-alone-sex-is-always-awesome! So I won’t. But I do think that it’s vital to accept women as sexual beings more than capable of making their own decisions. It is irrelevant whether or not you approve.
…[One author thinks] women need committed relationships for sex. That’s cool; it’s her opinion, but it’s not the universal relationship script. So shut up.
...It ought to be somewhat evident that if women are sexual beings, they cannot be passive objects or possessions. And it ought to follow that if women are not simple trophies to be won, they cannot depreciate in value – no matter how many strangers they have sex with. The ‘value’ of a being is not similar to that of a car. It does not go down with age or use.
…If the decision to hookup is consensual, even if the lady does actually want to date the dude – and even if she doesn’t, it is her choice. In fact, if the next day, after just wanting a hookup (score!), she decides she is looking for something more, then it’s still fine…The semantics of sexual relationships scrutinize women’s actions and choices far too seriously. So shut up already!”
Unfortnately, a woman’s choices don’t exist in a vacuum. There’s got to be a guy on the other end. If she is looking for something more and he’s MIA, well, that’s not so fine, is it? She doesn’t really have a choice in how she is perceived post-hookup. What’s clearly missing here is the first-hand perspective of the college male. For insight I turn to Denice Ann Evans, documentary filmmaker of Spitting Game: The College Hook Up Culture. During filming, Denice had access to a population of college guys, many of whom spoke in silhouette rather than be identified. Here are some of the things she learned from them:
Toaster: a girl who has slept with three or more frat brothers. This information is tracked and distributed so that brothers know the Toaster roll at all times, and can steer pledges to Toasters during Rush.
Cum Buckets: college girls willing to be on call for sex.
Creamies: a white girl who will do anything for a black athlete
Fantasy Sex League: Many fraternities have a secret “rating” system where they keep a white board log of all the girls they have hooked up with and you get points for doing certain sexual things. Like…a blow job is 10 points, intercourse 100, etc…Rape is included on the list.
Swirly: Sticking a girl’s head in a toliet after you have sex with her.
For more insight into how college man sluts think, we may turn to that hallowed hall of wisdom Bro Bible, and their 5 Keys to Hooking Up With Incoming Freshmen:
5. Handling the Girl with a Long-Distance Relationship
“Don’t let this deter you. She is going to miss her man and long for his touch, but she is in Florida and Timmy is 3,000 miles away in California. A true gentleman, such as yourself, would do the right thing and step in to be that shoulder for her to cry on, that ear for her to talk to, and that throbbing cock for her to straddle.’
4. How to Gauge Her Interest
“The simple truth is that there is no easier way to a freshman girl’s crotch than to show her a good fucking time and take her to sick parties. Just be sure that she is not a virgin. If she still has her cherry intact, I suggest you take your cock elsewhere because fucking her is going to take a little thing my father likes to call “work,” and you don’t want any part of that.”
3. How to Make Sure the Young Lass Doesn’t Cling to You
“If the girl is a freshman and you have a one-night stand with her, keeping her from clinging is easy. Just don’t give her your number (accepting her as a friend on Facebook is debatable). By the second month of school, you’ll both be afterthoughts in each others’ minds.”
2. How Not to Burn Bridges
“Be nice. Be sincere. Don’t promise her the world if all you can give her is a crusty eye followed by the dumpster. I know that sounds totally contradictory to everything that I have ever said, but take it from a guy who has doused a few bridges with kerosene and then tossed a match on them right after I crossed; enemies of the female gender can ruin your love life.”
1. How to Not Alienate Older Chicks
“Depending on the circles you run in, this might not be as difficult as you think. Most of the broads I hung out with my freshman year knew what the deal was by the time we were upperclassmen. You having sex with a young freshman won’t change their opinion of you. Hell, you probably already banged half of their sorority, so what’s one more?”
Actually, number 2 is kind of classy, even if his motives aren’t. I hope lots of guys take that advice. It’s very true that most guys don’t get this kind of action in college. But most of them want to. Bro Bible is HUGE among male undergrads, reading, writing down tips, hoping that you could be their next victim hookup.
Eyes wide open, ladies! Adopt Ms. Berry’s strategy if you dare, but don’t cry or email me afterwards. If you’re a freshman you are fresh meat, not a precious unique snowflake. Remember that.
I’ll close with Susan’s 5 Keys to Not Getting Pumped and Dumped Your First Semester:
- Stay wary of frat rats and athletes.
- Don’t go to anyone’s room at 3 in the morning if you don’t want to have sex.
- Watch out for each other. Don’t let friends hook up when they’re blackout drunk. Don’t let your friends leave anywhere without you.
- Don’t do anything more than make out the first time.
- Don’t interpret a willingness to hold hands or kiss you on the nose or cuddle as anything more than foreplay or post-coital oxytocin haze.
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A picture of America’s future.
The young woman who said that sexually free young women, “Cannot depreciate in value” because, I guess, they value themselves so highly sounds as if she is in a coma. It sounds as if that person never achieved any awareness of the world outside her own self induced mental images.
Since she is apparently too dumb to be rescued or even helped, the only remaining question for a guy is,”What is my escape plan after the lay?”
That picture you posted up is actually quite provocative. This whole post makes me sick as shit. I just feel awful. I’ve been always anti frat guy. Ever since I read “Hot Chicks with Douchebags.” I understand that this is the key point in everyone’s lives to experiment, but this is just punch you in the face stupid. I’ve always been anti frat because it seems like everyone who’s trying to join a frat is looking for easy sex. I’m not fond of anything easy, I’m fond of knowledge and honest effort. Nothing comes cheap for me. If someone offered sex to me on a silver platter, naked, and horney, I wouldn’t take it. It would just seem random and too easy. Unless she came with a brochure that included medical records, a detailed biography, and a statistical chart rating how many men she sleeps with on a monthly/weekly basis, then just maybe I might get myself in a little bit of trouble making. But I’d very much prefer to strike up a conversation and call her up to walk around the park or sit around a furniture store. (not now, I have a girlfriend) It just makes a more decent literary probable life.
The epidemic that you speak of needs an anti activist effort. Not a celibacy religious group, but an equally fun college experience that would appeal to college women taking them away from dorm and frat bullshit.
So. Johnny-The-White-Knight, who are you angry at? The hotgirls or the douche-bags?
Before you answer, think of who has the real decision making power in a hookup.
May I suggest that those college girls looking for something more serious than the hook-up culture, try hanging out near the engineering and computer science buildings; you can seriously find tons and tons of good guys that won’t give you a “swirly”, perhaps even help with you math homework… only one problem though, they’re “nice”…
@Matt Savage
We’ve mentioned engineering/comp sci guys as good targets previously: Susan had a blog entry which discussed an article about the difficulty of modern dating for women, with the setting being the Chapel Hill area. The fact that NC State had a large engineering program and was just down the street from the area didn’t seem to occur to many of the women in question…
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@Susan
Funny how the picture is of Univ. of Michigan women. During my grad days in Ann Arbor, there were quite a few such hottie types, but I can tell you they’d be caught dead before heading over to the North Campus (where the main engineering buildings are). The grad program in my field had I think, a 20:1 male: female ratio, even worse than my STEM central undergrad school (which was about 3:1).
” they cannot depreciate in value – no matter how many strangers they have sex with”
“We’re not cars” is such a useless argument. Women don’t like when men give it up too easily either, the “it” is just different. People aren’t just drawn to the common, the easy, the used, of anything. Look at what years of Game and being a player does to guys! Who actually wants a female version of that?! Nothing new here, just saying my piece. By all means, have fun and experiment but be smart about it.
Don’t stereotype the computer nerds. I had one friend who had this kind of radar when it came to finding the most emotionally vulnerable woman in the room for an easy lay. I think it had to do with his analytical nature and how he could read faces. Guy was 5’4”, didn’t care about his appearance, and was a piss-poor conversationalist, but he sure scored some hot girls.
Rum, this made me burst out laughing. I agree – she is delusional. That’s why I put the text in bold. In reality, the metaphor works – a woman is JUST like a car, and high mileage is a strong disincentive to purchase.
@Jonathan Manor
I think this is the primary reason guys join frats. And it works, apparently.
Yeah, I’m all for it – but “equally fun” – that’s a tough one. Unfortunately, what’s fun for many freshmen women is to feel like the desired object. And sexually aggressive males are the guys most likely to express that kind of interest.
Susan,
Can you, or one of your women readers, explain to me what the experience of waiting for someone to express interest is like? Often, I hear from women that they just love the more sexually aggressive guys. What’s it like when a man expresses interest for a woman? Really vague question, I know. But it is really difficult for me to think of the experience of being in the more “passive” role. And yet this is defining.
~PJL.
Matt Savage, good to see you! Your advice is on-target but rather difficult to implement I’m afraid. One guy – I forget who – was a comp sci major and said that on one occasion he found a sorority chick standing in front of the building, looking up uncertainly. He asked if he could help her in some way, and she said, “I’m afraid to go in there.” But she is undoubtedly not afraid of being accosted by a player while downing her third cup of jungle juice!
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We need to bring these guys back into the fold – not giving swirlies is a distinct competitive advantage, it seems to me. I mean, how much sh*t are women really willing to put up with? A lot, apparently.
Yes, isn’t that a nice coincidence? The photo was on the Bro Bible site and just happened to be the same school where the Consider blog is. I was tempted to make the caption: Is Tabitha Berry one of these women? but figured I might run afoul and libel laws.
I mean, seriously. Women licking – what is that? – off of each other’s boobs? Has to be a frat full of knuckleheads.
@Sox
I agree – in fact, the argument isn’t just useless, it’s potentially destructive to women. I think some of these young women are spending too much time getting their advice from fellow women – and not nearly enough time asking men how they feel about the issue. You’re one of the more liberal guys here wrt partner count, but I think women need to know that nearly all men will care about mileage at some point.
@DJB
It’s funny you should say this. There was this guy at b-school – he was Polish and about 5’5″. He was incredibly confident. Always extremely flirtatious, he would call on the phone and say, “Do you wanna have a sex?” There was something endearing about him, and although I was never tempted, he did OK for himself. He wound up on Wall St., and I think he married a hottie. I’ve been thinking about him today for some reason.
I think it is really true that there is just this huge acceptance of the whole hook-up culture as being how you’re going to get a guy. It’s stupid. I find a lot of people in college or the recently graduated don’t even know what actually makes a good date. In college you can still randomly ask some girl to be your date to your faculty formal without hardly knowing her. You aren’t going to do that so much later on in life – most people won’t bring some random to work party or even a wedding (they’ll hit on the desperate single girls at the wedding anyway lol).
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I know that even I myself am kind of faced with this “shit how do I date?” issue because it just didn’t happen. Guys knew I wasn’t going to hook up, so I didn’t get much of anything in school. It’s leading to a whole other issue where a lot of people in my generation don’t understand how to court someone outside of a drunken stupor just to get them home for the night.
I just don’t think girls should even bother trying to *navigate* the collage life and just date exclusively guys in their late 20′s who are already graduated. The dating etiquette compared to the older guys as opposed to my peers at that age was crazy and much more respect was given to my more introverted and tomboyish personality which might help girls like reformed_tomboy.
Online dating was a good way to find these older guys and many were great and thank god more mature people. I targeted the good looking guys who were into computer science (they exist) or as unfraty as possible. I ended up getting married to the second guy I slept with and no regrets at all.
Interesting post. As one of those “engineers” that the college girls are afraid of… what gives? Engineering is too beta I guess.
Maybe this engineer can have some luck with those isolated girls that “don’t hook up”. At my local college, how do I identify and target these girls? They are exactly the kind I want anyway; low mileage, maybe even attending college to get her MRS degree.
And just to be specific, by “target”, I don’t mean for a hookup. I’m established in my field, but considering going back to college for a semester to find one of these young ladies. I want to start a family.
Why do men keep getting blamed for this situation? Most of us are completely outside the hooking up system. Unlike non-alpha men women have a choice so the current situation clearly serves their interests or they would choose to do something else.
PJL
Can you, or one of your women readers, explain to me what the experience of waiting for someone to express interest is like? Often, I hear from women that they just love the more sexually aggressive guys. What’s it like when a man expresses interest for a woman? Really vague question, I know. But it is really difficult for me to think of the experience of being in the more “passive” role. And yet this is defining.
I just want to say that this is one of the most interesting questions I’ve ever seen asked on this blog. But you are actually asking two different questions here: What is the experience of waiting for someone to express interest? and What is the experience of having interest expressed in you?
I don’t know much about you but I’ll bet anything you don’t like waiting for trains, dinner, or the doctor to come into the office. Waiting is not something anyone likes to do. Waiting for a man to express romantic interest is not a special kind of “fun waiting”. It’s just as annoying as any other kind, if not more. It can get mind blowingly aggravating. You glance around the room, hoping he notices the eye contact you’re making, thinking that, this time, maybe, just maybe…and then he approaches the girl sitting behind you instead. Or worse, doesn’t do anything at all. I don’t know if a guy can really understand this kind of rejection. It’s so subtle, almost like you weren’t really rejected, because there isn’t really anything you DID, but it still hurts. And there’s nothing you can do, no way to learn from it. All you really need as a guy is to have some confidence in yourself. That’s all it takes to approach women. Game is just little tricks, little embellishments on that confidence. If you don’t believe that what you’re saying will work, it doesn’t matter if you have the best “opener” or the wittiest “neg”. But what you can do as a man is learn from practice. The more women you approach, the better you get at it. But it’s not like that for women. There’s no “girl game” one can learn to suddenly make any guy want to marry her. There’s no ‘practice makes perfect’—one can only get so good at batting one’s eyelashes and flipping one’s hair, after all.
Obviously I’m not trying to make this a conversation of “who has it harder”. I’m just sharing a personal experience, and I’m sure many women feel similarly. On the other hand, I’m also sure many women don’t have a problem with being passive, or find that being active has worked for them.
Now on to the second question…when a guy expresses romantic interest…it’s the best thing in the world! But this I don’t need to explain. If you’ve ever been in love, you understand.
Swirly? REALLLLLLLY?
I find it interesting that the guy’s article was about a power struggle – which I’ve never really thought of relationships like that, but I have heard plenty girls say they feel so out of control in the beginning of relationships. Usually, at least among my friends, the struggle for control is over the knowledge of what is going on – not and power struggle for sex or commitment.
And I totally agree with you Susan re: “Unfortnately, a woman’s choices don’t exist in a vacuum.”
Top 5 Rational Rules for Not Getting Played and keeping reasonably safe is Sexual situations:
1.) Please don’t get drunk looking for sex. It causes all sorts of ancillary problems & issues that are difficult to deal with then & later.
2.) Always be aware of your surroundings and of the games that might be played with, for or against you. That suave delicious looking guy with all the good lines, needs due & cautious consideration. And all this is better done when more sober than not.
3.) Listen hard to what’s being said & left unsaid. Ask questions if things do not make much sense. Engage in conversation to try and discover what sort of person you have in front of you. If this is a loud crowded bar, that may have certain limitations. Engage all your senses while openly engaging in conversation. How does this person behave? More charming than real? Hints at deception here can be many different ‘tells’ that may be obvious to a practiced eye. Don’t let the tingle of immediate desire disarm or overwhem your decision making faculties.
4.) Constantly have a dialog with yourself asking ‘Is this what I want?’ Why? When? Under what conditions? What more might I need to know to be & feel more safe or comfortable? Is there a way out? Can I easily escape from this? [Follow up is below].
5.) Ask yourself another question. ‘Is this action compatible with who I am & who I want to become?’ Will this help me do X or Y down the road, or further some larger intrinsic goal? Will it demonstrably harm myself or others? Why? And is this justified or acceptable for some reasons? (Also applies to most difficult situations/decisions).
Cheers, ‘VJ’
@RT
I’m afraid you’re right – hookup culture is extending well beyond the college years now. A lot of women in the femosphere like to say, “Don’t get your panties in a twist, dating happens after college.” At one point that was true, because there were people in their 20s and 30s who hadn’t experienced hooking up that way in college. We’ve reached the point where many 20 somethings have known nothing but hooking up – there isn’t courtship, dating, or even much practice with relationships.
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The one good thing is that most people do tend to think of finding a long-term partner a few years after college. Guys in their late 20s may not know how to date, but they’re bound to figure it out when looking for a serious relationship – they have to know that hooking up with randoms isn’t going to produce one. I suggest identifying some places where the kind of guys you like may be found, and going there! Or try online dating – by definition that’s a group of people who presumably expect to go on real dates. Watch out for players – they’re there as well.
Saj, welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. There is a lot of sense in what you say. Online dating has had a real stigma among college students – I think they feel it is desperate at a time when they should be able to meet all different kinds of people easily. I believe that may be changing, and that’s a good thing, IMO. There’s really no other way a college student is going to meet older guys in the area, except in college bars, and then you really have to wonder why a 28 yo guy is hanging out there….
@Timothy Webster
I can’t imagine it is really necessary to go back to school just to meet a woman – that sounds like a pretty expensive strategy. However, for any guy who wants to meet women on campus who are looking for more than the hookup, start with organizations that focus on academics. Hang out in areas where women study. Other good bets are political organizations of your choice or groups that do philanthropy or community service. In other words, find women that are serious and are clearly in college to get a good education. I don’t think there are too many women who go to college for an MRS degree – at least I hope not – but you’re more likely to find this in religious schools or locations.
Well, a few bad apples ruin it for everyone…same with women. I think you’ll admit that I haven’t gone so easy on promiscuous women either. I do believe there are women who do choose to do something else, and as you say there are many men who are not participating (even if they would actually like to).
@VJ
Excellent list – much better than mine. And this question:
If we all asked ourselves this question more frequently, we would experience – and cause – a lot less pain and heartache.
Sweet Jeebus on a pogo stick, do sex+ feminists ever have two thoughts in a row where one follows the other in a logical progression?
Apparently she’s trying to say that nobody should give general advice on any topic ever, because such advice hardly ever applies to everybody. Or at least, that’s what she would be trying to say if she weren’t too stupid to realize that her argument doesn’t only apply to hooking up. After all, my great grandfather smoked, and he lived to 96, so people who say that smoking is bad for your health should just SHUT UP cause they don’t know my grandpa! But wait, telling everyone to SHUT UP is advice-giving in and of itself. Oops!
Non-sequitur. My parents own a cat. They owned the cat even before they had him neutered. Besides which, ever heard of an institution called slavery? It’s a bad institution, but it does in fact exist. I think it’s pretty fair to say that a girl who gets a swirly is owned, or at the very least pwned.
Non-sequitur. Value to who? A woman’s value to men (and especially potential life partners) most certainly can and does go down. Or is she trying to bring God into a defense of being a dingy slut? Now that would be a fun argument to hear.
@Deidre
I think the power issue comes into play when women adopt the belief that casual sex is empowering – that they can control the timing of sex and what it means. As Regnerus points out, it’s really not such a big achievement to accomplish the first goal. The meaning of the sex is something else entirely, and this is where a lot of women get tripped up.
As for the uncertainty around what is going on – that is the hardest thing about the early stages – for both girls and guys.
@PJL
I agree with Chili – this is a very interesting question, and she gave a good answer. I’ll take a shot. It’s very difficult to assume a passive role, when we’ve identified someone we’re interested in. We want to send signals – flirt – but often we suspect or realize that the intended message is either not being received, or is being received and rejected or ignored. It’s often impossible to tell the difference. This is why women spend hours with each other parsing over every word that was uttered, every instance of eye contact. What does it mean?
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As Chili said, often times we’ll have a crush on someone, he’ll be friendly, even flirty, and our well-meaning friends will say, “Oh, he definitely seemed interested tonight! You guys looked so cute together!” Then we find out he’s got a thing for that bitchy girl who doesn’t even bother with girlfriends. UGH. Or we’ll hear, “Tim can tell you like him, but he’s not interested. He doesn’t want to be awkward, though.” Shame.
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Sometimes, though, it works out. The object of our desire picks up on our cues, or happens to like us at the same time, and makes moves. This is bliss. Another thing that can happen – most of my relationships happened this way – a guy who isn’t even on a woman’s radar screen appears from nowhere and boldly indicates an interest. A kiss out of nowhere, or an unexpected invitation. Guys often take us by surprise, and that can be wonderful, if we’re attracted.
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Which leads me to the last unfortunate example. Sometimes a guy takes us by surprise and we’re not interested. Or worse, we have sensed a guy’s attraction, and we don’t reciprocate his interest. We can’t preemptively reject him if he hasn’t made his interest known, so we may await his overtures with some dread, knowing that we will disappoint him. This happens a lot with friends – you’re friends with a guy, you really enjoy the friendship, and the vibe starts to shift in a way that will change everything. Despite what women may say about valuing the friendship, we’ll go for it if we’re attracted. If we’re not, we’ll be disappointed that a good guy friend is introducing sexual tension.
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All of this applies only to women of good character. Unfortunately, there are plenty of women who will take your interest for granted, act oblivious if they’re not interested, or aggressively pursue the men they want. (This last may be great for you if you like to be aggressively pursued.)
@The Deuce
I knew one of you guys would take this apart, and I knew it would be a good laugh. There are a few things that continue to surprise me about the sex + feminists:
1. The logic is almost always tortured. I even found this to be true when scuffling directly with Amanda Marcotte and Jessica Valenti. I mean, these are undoubtedly “smart” women – and educated. They’re good writers. And yet, when discussing this issue – their bread and butter, they all retreat to a kind of hysterical sputtering. I don’t use the word hysterical lightly – with it’s history wrt women. It’s disturbing that these preeminent feminists can’t make a cogent argument.
2. The strident, angry tone is pervasive. It is extremely rare that I come across an opinion piece like this that doesn’t conjure up visions of kids on a playground. Shut up! You’re stupid! It’s none of your business! The militancy undoubtedly wins them some converts among young women, but it also keeps them separate and unavailable for reasonable discourse.
3. The hamster wheel is spinning at the speed of light with these women. If they say it enough, it must be true. Categorically so. Saying, “..it ought to be somewhat evident” or “it ought to follow….” is just signaling willful ignorance if what does follow makes no sense or is a non-sequitur.
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Women who write pieces like this give all women a bad name – it’s the kind of nonsensical argument that men rarely engage in. Instead of presenting clear analysis, it’s all emotional hand-wringing. The women who deny biological differences between the sexes are the most likely to resort to female stereotypes.
This is the problem with modern society. There are so many voices that it is difficult to weed out the sane opinions from the crazy ones. A young woman can hear Mark Regnerus and Tabitha Berry at the same time and nobody will teach her what is the point of view who is best for her. A young woman can hear Susan and Jessica Valenti, for example.
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It boils down to non-judgmentalism. When all the points of view are presented in an equal way and are given the same value, it is hard for a person to see what is the way to live his/her life. In absence of a guide, s/he follows the herd.
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So non-judgmentalism reinforces the status quo. It is the most subtle and effective way of censorship. Instead of censoring opposing views, flood the media with a thousand different voices, so the opposing views are hard to distinguish from the background noise.
If a woman looks at me I reprocitate by looking back. How can that be a rejection?
@Lavazza
Well, it depends on what your look means. What are you feeling when you look back? If you are thinking, “Yeah, that cute girl just made eye contact with me!” it’s obviously not a rejection. Message received and warmly welcomed. On the other hand, if you think “That busted chick is looking like she wants to eat me for breakfast…,” well that’s not going to end well for her.
Sometimes a guy takes us by surprise and we’re not interested. Or worse, we have sensed a guy’s attraction, and we don’t reciprocate his interest. We can’t preemptively reject him if he hasn’t made his interest known, so we may await his overtures with some dread, knowing that we will disappoint him. This happens a lot with friends – you’re friends with a guy, you really enjoy the friendship, and the vibe starts to shift in a way that will change everything.
This also happens with guys like BBQ guy from a previous thread. Even if I find a guy attractive, the attraction goes WAY down if I sense he is only interested in me for sex. (Normal) women like being love objects, not sex objects. (Although both at the same time is ok too
Among female college students, yes. Because they login and if they are at all attractive, they get inundated with hundreds of emails from every male from 16-60. It’s overwhelming and largely pointless, unless she’s dating for meals.
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Male college students are there…mostly prowling for Cougars and MILFs.
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You’re forgetting the other purpose of being strident and angry…it ups controversy and readership. A lot of writers on all sides purposefully ramp up the emotional language to elicit a response in the readership. A reader who is vehemently opposed can generate as much traffic (or more!) than one who agrees. “There is no such thing as bad press”, as you can testify with your own readership exploding after your tangle with them via Twitter.
Thanks for the replies, Chili and Susan. As a man, I never expect to be pursued, so when I go through “droughts” they’re self-consciously self-inflicted. Men never really experience just waiting. And it’s interesting to think: I recently did “reject,” i.e. fail to initiate on, a girl who was flirting with me. Of course it was a rejection, but unlike a man’s rejection it’s. . .softer and therefore must be more infuriating. Typically, men get rejected very definitely. A good women will leave little room for ambiguity: “PJL, unless you hit me with a tranquilizer, we will never sleep together.”
I’ve been, as an aside, aggressively pursued once and taken off guard once. I think most other times I’ve understood when a girl has been interested. Being aggressively pursued, as a man, was not fun.
http://badgerherald.com/artsetc/2010/09/21/hey_girls_like_to_da.php
BREAKING: Women love assholes. Film at 10.
This may be a little off topic.
I grew up surrounded by douchebags (sorry ALPHAS) who had very nice and pretty girlfriends. The guys here looking at them from the outside at the clubs would call them alpha by their outward success with women but one beats up his girlfriends/wives and another ended up making national news for date raping 30 girls. These are your role models? Really?
The men labeling themselves as beta should stop beating themselves up so much and looking up to guys who have serious self esteem issues where they feel like they should fake their whole personality just to keep a girl interested. I have yet to meet a guy who others would label as Alpha dog and not see someone reeking of insecurity but perhaps my nose is more keen from being exposed to them young and often. Girls like guys who are comfortable in their own skin period. Someone who is too self conscious shouldn’t learn to fake a personality and insulting strangers (IE Negs) rather then learning to like himself and feel confident in who he is as a person despite past success with women.
As for young collage girls, well the ones who are drawn to this type are a very particular subset. Usually low self esteem themselves or had a history of abuse and try to find intimacy in the shallowest of places. Guys kicking them while they are down (The pumper and dumpers) aren’t alpha but lousy predators. Self labeled betas also kicking these girls do to a weird sort of jealousy of not being allowed in pump and dump club are no better.
A word to advice to bitter betas. It’s not the fact that you are a beta or the cock carosal women ignored you that keep you down. It is the bitterness that eradicates off you like a bad smell. Your dream low millage women are not stupid and they can sense when you have a chip on your shoulder from your years of acting like a put upon victim. In addition to the douchebags I’ve also grown up with bitter people who when they walk into a room it’s like a dark cloud of tension has arrived. Smart girls run from that.
For a young girl who is smart enough to not just chase after $ or a self esteem band aid through sex the best men out there for you are 26-31, happy and secure people and believe in treating everyone with respect.
People were talking about “swirlies” when I was in college 25 years ago. I always thought it was an urban legend. I did remember some pretty humiliating stuff when I was a Freshman. The guy in the dorm next to me had a girlfriend he would bring over. The walls being like paper, I always heard them having sex, which, as a horny virgin, drove me crazy. At the time, cakes in the shape of female genitalia were the rage. His buddies ordered one for his birthday. I remember seeing them lick, stamp and then utterly destroy the cake. They were laughing and making the obligatory sexual references. I knew she was there, but never got to see her face. They were back at it again next Saturday, so it must have been o.k. I think they eventually broke up. He rushed later that year. And this was an Ivy League school.
@Aldonza
Amanda Marcotte kept accusing me of doing unethical things just to get traffic. I’ll give you my honest take on the traffic issue. On the plus side:
1. My traffic was very heavy for a few days, and the most controversial post generated a lot of comments. That is gratifying – to get a lot of eyes on my blog.
2. I also got exposed to the mainstream media a bit there – and if I ever want to tussle with them again, I know exactly how to set the bait.
On the negative side:
1. The flurry of traffic did not stick – I probably got 5 or fewer new regular readers out of it. That’s fine with me, but what’s more valuable is exposure from a friendly source that sends new readers who are likely to enjoy reading your material.
2. The tone of the conversation was extremely unpleasant (see strident and angry above). I really didn’t enjoy myself very much. Since I do this mostly because I think it’s fun and interesting, that week was my least favorite in two years of blogging.
3. Many of my regular readers didn’t enjoy it either. I got quite a few emails saying, “Just ignore those crazy women and go back to writing what we need to know!” I’d say there are a few different constituencies that read here, but most of them don’t enjoy having it out with Amanda Marcotte et al. An exception would be the guys who are actively anti-feminist, who I think had a reasonably good time.
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So, the bottom line is that controversy will bring you readers, yes, but if they’re hostile you’re happy when they go away again.
Haha, that’s pretty funny. I have to say, this has been one of the most interesting things I’ve learned this week in the comments. Guys want you to rip off the band aid. No niceties, just give it to me straight. Women aren’t good at that in general, even with each other, but if we understand that men really, really want honesty, we owe it to them to give it. It does depend though, on how well you know the person. If a guy on campus asks a girl out, she should not be obligated, nor would it be appropriate, to say, “I don’t find you attractive.” She may say “thanks, but I have other plans.” Guys should know that if a girl is interested but has a real conflict, she will immediately suggest finding another time or explicitly state that she wishes she was available. If a woman does that with you, take her at her word and ask again. If she doesn’t, it’s a rejection, albeit one that allows you both to save face.
@Susan
Thanks for your answers. When I was in California, if I wasn’t a registered student, I would be quickly escorted off campus. I was thinking of a night course or something.
Political groups are out; I’m too radical. The community service ones sound interesting. Maybe the debate club.
@dragnet
Wow. The degree of poor judgment exhibited by that writer is astounding. She starts with:
and it goes downhill from there. I think you’ve definitely got a carousel rider here. Aside from the fact that she’s making bad decisions in her sex life, she’s just published a piece online under her real name sharing them. As a journalism major, the only route she’s left open to herself is the Lena Chen career path. Which ends badly.
@DJB
I think guys who get girlfriends in college – who choose to commit rather than just hook up with randoms – often behave extremely disrespectfully toward them. I call these guys reluctant boyfriends – they obviously perceive that there’s a benefit in being a boyfriend (the sex gravy train, no doubt) but they make it clear to anyone watching or listening that they don’t plan to let it cramp their style in any way. They may even ridicule their gf for the benefit of others. A disturbingly high number of women put up with this treatment, or worse, just to be “in a relationship.” I can’t help but think that the long-term emotional cost will be higher than the short-term benefit of the pretend commitment.
Saj,
Your comment buys into some classic pretty lies – gamers are predators, only damaged girls dig jerks, and “JBY.” Unfortunately it is empirically disproved. Sadly, women dig jerks (not all but enough to make it a viable strategy). The ‘dark triad’ works. Most betas who pick up game want to be loved by women, few are avenging narcissists (if they were they’d probably be successful with women in the first place). “Being yourself” (re-titled as “comfortable in your own skin”) doesn’t work unless “yourself” is attractive.
And we get the old “just wait it out until the girls get older and want providers!” The real problem with that is that it tells men to yoke themselves to the changing desires of women instead of being in charge of their own love lives. It’s wacked – a big chunk of men should not have to wait until ten years past puberty to have a shadow of a shot at a decent experience with a woman.
Of the betas who learn game (most men won’t make the effort), most of them are going to be altogether harmless. They’re betas, even if they ape the game of naturals they don’t have it in them to be predators. So they get some casual sex – sex their partners were looking for in the first place, most of it college and bar hookup sex that the feminist vanguard doesn’t see anything wrong with anyway. At best, they take a compatible relationship to new heights with judicious use of what they’ve learned. This idea that legions of men are signing up to become little Roissys, play interminable mind games on your average bar babe and then blog about the end of Western society doesn’t pass the smell test.
I think girls who get boyfriends in college – who choose to commit rather than just hook up with random frat guys – often behave extremely disrespectfully toward them. I call these guys reluctant girlfriends – they obviously perceive that there’s a benefit in being a girlfriend (dates to formals, freedom from slut shaming) but they make it clear to anyone watching or listening that they don’t plan to let it cramp their style in any way. They may even ridicule their bf for the benefit of others. A disturbingly high number of (non-”alpha”) men put up with this treatment, or worse, just to be “woman-approved” and get a little sex. I can’t help but think that the long-term cost to the girls’ ability to truly bond with their partner will be higher than the short-term benefit of the pretend commitment.
@Saj
I’ll second what Badger Nation said. Game is good for women, or can be, because it increases the number of good men who can sexually attract women. Instead of attractive men being 100% jerks, you get a lot more genuinely good guys diluting the douchebag pool. In fact, I wish more guys were successful learning and implementing Game, because most of them ultimately want to have a LTR anyway.
It’s true that Game can be used to hurt women when deceit is added. But there’s nothing inherently deceitful about Game. Game is amoral. In this SMP, women need to be alert to the red flags that men of poor character display sooner or later.
Yes, it’s a problem that there are a lot of narcissistic guys out there who don’t respect women, but women can’t do anything about that. What they can do is refuse those guys, and hold out for a man with a mix of alpha and beta traits. Those men are rarely born – they’re made. And Game is the best way I know of to get a man there. I think it’s a lot easier to add dominant behaviors to a good man, than to add empathy and affection to an asshole.
Susan,
I posted the satire just to show it can go both ways and often does…:) College tends to be a confusing time, so even well-intentioned people have trouble balancing independence and commitment, and float in and out of wanting certain things all the time.
My experience doesn’t jive with your impression. In high-T, notch-counting frats, or in social climber sororities where hypergamy was in play, people were likely to order a main course and still look at the buffet table. But in other Greek houses, the societies upheld the members’ social lives and thus reinforced their relationships. It takes all types.
@Badger Nation
Fair enough, but since relationships in college are scarce, and generally more desired by women than men, I’d assume that the reluctance is mostly male. The kind of reluctant gf you describe seems unlikely to settle for the beta anyway. I think this scenario used to be more common, but hookup culture has provided the means for those women to aim high and get short-term gratification – their 5 minutes with alpha.
I will say that this behavior is every bit as reprehensible in a woman as in a man, and I agree that it will damage her ability to pair bond. In fact, such a woman probably has limited natural ability to bond, and the same would be true of the pretend boyfriend.
@Badger Nation Well, my experience is sorely outdated, and I rely on reports from others. I suspect that as in any kind of reporting, the most salacious stories get all the ink. I hear frequently from people unhappy in the SMP, and not so frequently from the happy couple in a relationship. I know there are some, because I see them in my personal life. I could walk onto any number of campuses in Boston today and undoubtedly I would see numerous couples holding hands. It’s important not to generalize – the fact that college students graduate with an average of just over one sexual partner suggests that there are quite a few LTRs in there.
Guys want you to rip off the band aid. No niceties, just give it to me straight. Women aren’t good at that in general, even with each other, but if we understand that men really, really want honesty, we owe it to them to give it.
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Perhaps this is a sexist generalization on my part, but my sense is one of the KEY differences between men and women is that men appreciate bluntness and candidness, while women want more diplomatic niceties.
Simplistically, guy on guy, if you think I am a jerk or stupid, then tell me to my face you think I am a jerk or stupid. Don’t play Chinese telephone and act one way to my face but say something else to someone else. I guess in a nutshell, men prefer directness whereas I think women prefer indirectness. Of course, that doesn’t apply across the board. There is one female commenter here who is very direct, and I bet appreciates directness in all her interactions which I really like.
@ Susan:
“Guys want you to rip off the band aid. No niceties, just give it to me straight.”
I’ll qualify it by saying that it’s mostly true, but that it shouldn’t be pushed into the “cruelty” zone:
For example, good: “I don’t think we have a connection.”…<cut off ties>
Not good: “I’m not interested in dating anybody”…<wait a week>…”Come and visit me this weekend”…<drive to visit>…”Oh, I didn’t tell you I just started dating someone”.
The truth, even a harsh truth, can be given humanely…
@ Susan
I think it’s a lot easier to add dominant behaviors to a good man, than to add empathy and affection to an asshole.
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Wow. Really. Wow. That is such a great statement. It summarizes the whole enchilada in one sentence.
“Game” has become this thing…thing thing that everyone debates, discusses, rails against. One blogger I stumbled across from your blog appears to be on an anti-Game crusade. One big problem is that people tend to conflate 3 different things with Game:
1. Adopting a “fake” persona and personality
2. Adopting very specific verbal communication skills, mannerisms, body language, subcommunication skills, etc.
3. Engaging in deceitful, manipulative, hurtful behavior.
Many people can’t seem to mentally comprehend that #2 does not equal #1. Similarly, many people can’t seem to mentally comprehend that #2 does not mean one has to engage in #3.
But you are absolutely right that it is 100x easier to take a good, decent, emphathetic guy and teach him #2 then take a selfish asshole and try to turn him into a caring human being.
Well, if it is, it’s justified, because I think this is 100% accurate.
This is very important. Sometimes a small kernel of truth is more than adequate to achieve the necessary communication. Share the least information you can without leaving room for false hope.
Saj’s patent nonsense has already been addressed fairly well by Badger Nation, but I think less politeness is called for:
“rather then learning to like himself and feel confident in who he is as a person despite past success with women.”
Yeah, and next he’ll run a marathon before breakfast and then solve a Rubik’s cube blindfolded just for fun. Saj, does it occur to you what you suggest is logically impossible for a young man who is (1) honest with himself and not a self-absorbed narcissist; (2) without significant life achievements yet; (3) as yet unsuccessful with women and yet still horny as all-get-out? For an honest person, confidence proceeds from the evidence of experience; if you don’t have the latter, you can’t get the former without some kind of fakery. Period.
“they can sense when you have a chip on your shoulder from your years of acting like a put upon victim.”
As opposed to actually being, in fact, a put-upon victim? Seriously, is there any combination of life experiences you can imagine to which bitterness is the correct response? or do you feel that, absolutely no matter what shit has been handed to him every man should just suck it up, pretend not to be offended, and keep on smiling? This has been another episode of Feminist-Stalinism, in which the very act of a man complaining about anything makes him a criminal who deserves only further torture and abuse.
Regarding this idea “the truth, even a harsh truth, can be given humanely…” from ENY, I can try to re-cycle this previous comment of mine
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http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/08/31/hookinguprealities/how-guys-really-feel-about-the-girls-they-hook-up-with/#comment-16829
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on the subject of better and worse ways to reject people. Money quote on this subject: “Honesty is good because honesty connotes respect.” Think about it.
@Dilithium
I remember that comment well, thanks. Just to add onto what you said about respect, an excerpt:
I actually think it’s a great idea to start out exactly that way – “I respect you.” If a man said that to me as the preliminary to a rejection, I think it would allow me to still hold my head high. It’s the difference between saying, “You’re a loser, not good enough for me.” and “You’re a worthy human being, but this isn’t going to work out.” There’s really enormous empathy in that – even perhaps the suggestion that the person who is doing the rejecting understands exactly what it feels like to be in that boat.
@PJL
I just came across a link you might find interesting on the question you raised earlier:
What a woman thinks when a man doesn’t respond to her signal of attraction.
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/what-a-woman-thinks-when-a-man-doesnt-respond-to-her-signal-of-attraction/
@Susan
You know what they remind me of?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZLVi4v7lSM
And we get the old “just wait it out until the girls get older and want providers!” The real problem with that is that it tells men to yoke themselves to the changing desires of women instead of being in charge of their own love lives. It’s wacked – a big chunk of men should not have to wait until ten years past puberty to have a shadow of a shot at a decent experience with a woman.
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And when you get that experience you can have the nagging doubt that that woman is using only as a provider (read wallet), loving you for your money or economic potential instead of loving you for you.
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Not to mention that it is outraging to pay such a high cost for something that everyone else has had for free.
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And not to mention that the girls who are telling you to wait don’t wait themselves. Another case of “Do what I say, not what I do”.
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Yes, Game is a great invention and lots of men have been less miserable because of it. It is a pity that it is not still mainstream.
Susan,
Nice reference to the Aunt Haley post. As you might have seen I ripped her pretty hard on there, not because I sensed malice but just because I thought she lacked balanced perspective – her piece is a very subtle and often-done shame, “if only men would learn to read our subtle signs and cues they wouldn’t be so confused!” That’s not to say men don’t miss signals, but it’s very projectiony to even state he “missed” a signal and not consider that maybe your signal was truly unclear. Or maybe he’s not clueless, maybe he’s just not interested (girls would be good to realize not every man wants to jump every woman who bats her eyelash at him).
As I pointed out to her, I don’t buy that biological differences drive subtle hints in women. I think it’s three overt factors:
-The anti-slut defense (don’t want to look too eager)
-Laziness (takes energy to make a real move)
-Self-protection (don’t stick your neck out and risk rejection, let the guy take all the risk)
The hamster comes into play. Cosmo girls have tried to use evo-psych to justify why they shouldn’t have to make moves, pay for dates, etc. And it’s clear most of that is just naked self-interest – they want the special privileges they used to enjoy when they really were the “weaker sex,” and they’ll pay tribute to virtue (that’s an allusion, google it) to maintain them.
As I pointed out to her, I don’t buy that biological differences drive subtle hints in women. I think it’s three overt factors:
-The anti-slut defense (don’t want to look too eager)
-Laziness (takes energy to make a real move)
-Self-protection (don’t stick your neck out and risk rejection, let the guy take all the risk)
I don’t mean to presume, but calling this “laziness” implies either bitterness or a serious misunderstanding of female psychology on your part. When you see guys complain about not getting girls when all they do is play WoW on Friday nights, you’d probably call that lazy. I can see how it would be easy to think women work the same way and to project the same logic on to them. But the fact is we do not work the same way. Giving subtle hints is not lazy, it’s how most women have been signaling attraction since the beginning of time.
Perhaps you like the more assertive types of women, but many men are confused or turned off by a very active female pursuer. And we women know that, which is another reason why most of us don’t do it. It’s not lazy, it’s strategy.
Guys want you to rip off the band aid. No niceties, just give it to me straight. Women aren’t good at that in general, even with each other, but if we understand that men really, really want honesty, we owe it to them to give it. It does depend though, on how well you know the person. If a guy on campus asks a girl out, she should not be obligated, nor would it be appropriate, to say, “I don’t find you attractive.” She may say “thanks, but I have other plans.” Guys should know that if a girl is interested but has a real conflict, she will immediately suggest finding another time or explicitly state that she wishes she was available. If a woman does that with you, take her at her word and ask again. If she doesn’t, it’s a rejection, albeit one that allows you both to save face.
Well, it is a question respect and common decency. This indirect approach contains the message “You are not worth the truth or even believable lie”. It is not about both saving face. It is about the person doing the rejection not wanting to explain, not wanting to risk anger, not wanting to expose his/her motivations etc.
There is no face facing for the rejected in this, at least not if this indirect rejection is done in private. But also in public I guess that the most face saving is for the rejecting party, who most of the time would appear shallow in stating her/his reasons for the rejection. But that depends of the attitude or sex of the public hearing the rejection.
The assessment of Regnerus is surprisingly accurate but I think one of his statements is inaccurate. Sex alone never had such a high exchange value, not even in a patriarchy. It never guaranteed security, responsibility, attention, affection, exclusivity, and commitment in itself. A woman also had to give commitment, exclusivity, validation and intimacy to a man to get all those things from him. If she really wanted to extract resources from him, she had to bear his children. The situation isn’t much different today.
On a different note, I got the impression that this blog sometimes turns into an echo chamber. Whenever Ms. Walsh does a post like this, some male commenter will eventually state the obvious conclusion: girls need to get the attention of nice guys if they’re fed up with alpha assholes and the hook-up scene – to which Ms. Walsh always replies “expecting women to do that is unreasonable and will never work”. In other words, there is no solution to this mess, at least not a conscious one.
@Badger
I hadn’t read through the comments, so went back and had a look. She does take a slight tone of ridicule there – I understand your response. FWIW, I think many women, especially inexperienced ones, are pretty clueless when it comes to signaling attraction. A very practiced flirt is probably unsuitable for an LTR – most women are worried about saying too much, saying too little, etc. I think a lot of women would like to be able to overtly express interest, and there’s no reason why they shouldn’t assume both the risks and payoff of doing so. However, whether it’s biology or social conditioning, girls grow up with a reluctance to be the aggressor. Some of that is self-interest, but I don’t think that tells the whole story. And I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the biology – males display plumage throughout the animal kingdom to entice the female – why should we be any different?
I was intrigued by this:
Can you describe how they expressed their interest? I’m curious to know what kinds of cues work with men. Other men have told me that if they are attracted, any cue will do, and if they’re not, none will. But there may be some good information here for women – if they can get up the ladyballs to risk it, what works?
See, you’ve just played into my point. You’ve asserted it could never be the woman’s fault if a there was a miscommunication of signals. But I see no evolutionary reason women should wait for men to pursue them. Back in the day a woman would have to supplicate to an alpha to get his genes as she was facing competition. This is not biological, it is cultural – playing into a chivalry fantasy, and a sense of entitlement that someone else should have to do the grunt work because she’s a snowflake and automatically awesome. I hear this from women all the time – “if he’s really interested he’ll make a move, and if he doesn’t make a move he’s a wuss.” Rejection is hard for men (shocking that men have feelings too) and we’re usually not going to take the risk of rejection to respond to subtle, coy hints if the payoff is uncertain.
But it’s an unsuccessful strategy, because it leads women to write innumerable columns about how men don’t get their signals. It may be worth noting that all the women I know who are successful with men, who catch good ones, are ones who have no problem approaching and being overt when the time is right. They are not going to say “I love Trueblood but I don’t have a TV………” and wait for him to offer up his TV. Their single friends are the ones who bat their eyes at men, wait for nothing to happen (sounds like sex sometimes) and then complain that men don’t get them.
I’m pretty sure I don’t say that women giving attention to nice guys will never work. Here’s how the argument usually goes, from my perspective:
1. A male commenter will state that many men are flying under the radar, and it is those men who would make good partners, so why don’t women go for them?
2. Sometimes the question is neutral, other times the tone is quite negative. For example, remarks about how women should stop bitching about relationships being scarce when they could march right over to the Comp Sci building and find a boyfriend in ten minutes. I understand the frustration, but I’d say that strategy is probably a non-starter.
3. Often there is a layer of resentment about female nature – and the importance of social dominance to women. This is what I believe is unreasonable, and any attempt to change it would be pointless. In the recent thread about Casey, a commenter pointed out that she is focusing on social dominance, the most superficial of traits. That is true. I responded that so are a woman’s looks a superficial trait, and asked whether he was ready to date 4s with a good personality. No response, but we know the answer. This is not bad or good – it just is. It’s biology, and it cannot be altered. I find it somewhat ironic that the very men who have accepted this and studied Game are still fuming about it.
4. I think that women can and do select men for good traits, especially if they’ve seen the worst of the hookup scene. I have written about how some men have too much social proof – many women are repulsed by players. Some women are groupies for the athletes, offering them sex unconditionally, but most women would never dream of assuming that role. There are varying degrees of hypergamy in women – and sexual behavior also reflects personality traits (extraversion, neuroticism, risk-seeking), sex drive and past experience. There are some women who will chase the tingle all their lives. There are others who do not have such a high tingle threshold, and view sex and relationships with maturity. The solution to this mess is available only to the latter.
Susan: “That is true. I responded that so are a woman’s looks a superficial trait, and asked whether he was ready to date 4s with a good personality. That is true. I responded that so are a woman’s looks a superficial trait, and asked whether he was ready to date 4s with a good personality.”
That would be a very good response to a guy who has no problem getting sex from 8s but who complains about their personality.
I also think guys signal their qualities that are not social dominance better than female 4s signal their great personalities.
Sometimes the question is neutral, other times the tone is quite negative. For example, remarks about how women should stop bitching about relationships being scarce when they could march right over to the Comp Sci building and find a boyfriend in ten minutes.
This is what I believe is unreasonable, and any attempt to change it would be pointless. This is not bad or good – it just is. It’s biology, and it cannot be altered. I find it somewhat ironic that the very men who have accepted this and studied Game are still fuming about it.
Susan, it’s true that hypergamy cannot be altered but the resentment of young betas cannot be altered either because it is a part of human nature too. You can’t have it both ways.
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You say women wanting social dominance is inevitable. I agree, although there are several thresholds and the average modern young woman’s threshold is insane (they think they live in a Hollywood movie). Most of the resentment comes from that.
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But you say you don’t understand the resentment about that. Look young betas are fed up with being rejected with women, often in a humiliating way. They have low self-esteem, the lack of sex produces depression. Meanwhile, they see women slutting around in college and enjoying a paradise of sex while they are alone and masturbating.
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And then these guys go to the Internet and see the same women who have rejected bitching and bitching about “There are not men left!”, “The alphas I am hooking up don’t want commitment”… It is inevitable that this produces resentment. It is part of human nature. It is very difficult no to tell them. “Look, stop whining. There are a lot of men: it’s you that don’t want them”
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It is as if a millionaire went to a blog and started complaining before poor people about how hard is to have a good private plane in this recession, while poor people are using the subway to travel. It is even worse, because the millionaire does not have lots of private planes that are free and that the millionaire does not consider worth of him.
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You can say the poor people: “I don’t understand the resentment. It is part of human nature to want more and more, so the more you have the more you want. You have to accept your lot with a smile”. So the poor people is not only screwed, they have even lost their right to protest and vent.
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In short, you can’t have it both ways. Hypergamy is part of human nature and ilogical. Resentment when you are a sexual pariah is also part of human nature and is also ilogical.
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You can’t say: “Men you have to be completely rational and understand that women are not rational and accept it with a smile”. But men have as much right to be irrational as women.
@NBTT
I think you misunderstand me. I do understand the resentment. However, I don’t think blaming the female sex is useful or productive. Blame feminism, blame the sexual revolution, blame the introduction of the Pill – all of these things have created the contemporary SMP. They’ve created an environment where female hypergamy is unleashed and sexuality unrestrained. We do know that many women behave against their own best interests, and those are the women that beta men are understandably judgmental about. That’s also the piece I am trying to address. That is different than railing against hypergamy, which is a given.
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As for the women who say, “I can’t get an Alpha guy to commit!”, well I am not sympathetic – not generally or here on this blog. One thing I try to do is educate women – believe it or not, most women don’t understand the science behind attraction. They understand what their “type” is, but they don’t understand why. Self-knowledge may not solve their problem – as I said, there is a spectrum of hypergamous behavior based on numerous factors. However, many women do find it helpful to understand what their triggers are, and pause to consider whether they really want the hot fudge sundae, or whether the apple is going to be a choice that makes them much happier.
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I think there’s plenty of irrationality to go around for both sexes – we are irrational when we are emotional, and that too is part of human nature. I agree with you. No one gets to corner the market on fuzzy thinking. In a way, what I’m trying to do here is offer women the red pill. What will always be futile is women railing against men for behaviors they don’t engage in, and vice versa.
(Beastie Boys, karaoke): You gotta fight! for your right! To gruuuuumble!
There is one female commenter here who is very direct, and I bet appreciates directness in all her interactions which I really like.
Hi Mike,
If you mean me, thanks. I do appreciate directness IRL, but it causes me a lot of trouble. I tend to unintentionally anger/hurt/intimidate people sometimes. I’m always sorry, but it’s often too late.
Back when I was dating, I frightened a lot of men. In the long run that was OK because it filtered out the guys who weren’t strong enough to deal with me. That left a lot of assholes whom I didn’t like, but eventually I found someone with a nice combination of strenghth and goodness who understands how to deal with me. He wasn’t easy to find, but it’s all good now. IRL, the men who like me best see me as tough, but not underhanded or bitchy. Strong, decent men tend to respect me.
My relationships with other women can be problematic as I am often too direct and honest. I say things like, “Your hairdo frames your face all wrong,” instead “Gosh, the updo you had last week was soooo fantastic on you!” OTOH, there are enough women out there, especially in the work world, who are enough like me that I have a lot of female friends.
So, if you meant me, thanks again. If not, sorry about the TMI.
Hooha!
Cannot depreciate in value?
Keep telling yourself that after each pump and dump!
Susan – these women are getting revenge on themselves for all of us good guys. I need not say a word.
Nothing more beautiful to me than a broken-hearted, crying young woman who has been used by that kind of guy.
nothingbutthetruth: But I do think men are more realistic/logic. Most of these men would say “Yeah, I know, but I still like to vent”, whereas few women seem to get to the “Yeah, I know” part.
@nothingbutthetruth
And then these guys go to the Internet and see the same women who have rejected bitching and bitching about “There are not men left!”, “The alphas I am hooking up don’t want commitment”… It is inevitable that this produces resentment. It is part of human nature. It is very difficult no to tell them. “Look, stop whining. There are a lot of men: it’s you that don’t want them”
I hear you, but at the same time, there are loads of women left out of the SMP as well. And if you try to fix one of these bitter betas up with one who doesn’t fit there exacting standards, they reject the women.
As I have may said here before, I have a gamma orbiter who is completely blind to reality. He is 50+ years old, divorced, no kids and lives with his mom. I have a husband and two teenage sons–whom he knows. I think he has some sort of fantasy that, because I am nicer to him than most women, I’m going leave my family for him or something. I once made the mistake of trying to fix him up with a 32 year old women. She was no beauty and a bit heavy but wanted to marry and have kids–something he complains bitterly about not having. He rejected her. An underemployed SOB with a harelip scar and an 85 year old mother dragging him down rejected HER!! WTF?!
OTOH, I strongly suspects he wanks off regularly over the fantasy of comforting me after a Mack trunk runs overmy husband. Did I mention that this guy is underemployed, has a harelip scar and an 85 year old mother dragging him down? What ever makes him happy….
<J shakes her head sadly.> An underemployed guy with harelip scar and an 85 year old mother dragging him down, for chrissakes! Some men are insane. </Head shake>
Well, obviously that man has no right to reject anyone.
@J
I love your own personal brand of HTML!
@rick
Haha, I thought you’d like that. The self-delusion there is funny, but also painful. This young woman has drunk the Kool Aid and she is going to learn some very tough lessons the hard way.
@Robson
Of course, he has the right to reject anyone he please. But I still have the right to comment on it–just as so many of you guys have the right to wish carousel riders good luck in their future careers as cat wranglers.
The point is people need to be realistic about their options. The girl in question knew that time was running out if she wanted to have a family. She was willing to trade looks, money and dealing with a pain in the ass MIL because I told her the guy, in spite of his shortcomings, was a good person. He, OTOH, said, “No fat chicks!” and refused to meet her. At this point, he lost my sympathies.
@J
Well, of course, there are guy that are delusional like this acquantaince of yours. But, in my experience, the market about people who overvalue their mate value is cornered by women. Not that men don’t have other flaws, but this flaw is typical of the female sex.
(Beastie Boys, karaoke): You gotta fight! for your right! To gruuuuumble!
Haha. I should stop writing in English when I’m that sleepy. I start telling nonsense (well, at least more nonsense than usual, haha)
J: “And if you try to fix one of these bitter betas up with one who doesn’t fit there exacting standards, they reject the women.”
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And, what is the proof of this statement? Why, it’s right here:
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“An underemployed SOB with a harelip scar and an 85 year old mother dragging him down rejected HER!!”
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Doubtless, J, this fellow constitutes the “typical” bitter beta in your mind. If you can’t grasp how twisted and insulting this example is to all the actual bitter betas in the world who are actually excellent and worthwhile people, then there’s no point in anyone trying to explain it to you.
@nothingbutthetruth
Well, of course, there are guy that are delusional like this acquantaince of yours. But, in my experience, the market about people who overvalue their mate value is cornered by women. Not that men don’t have other flaws, but this flaw is typical of the female sex.
YMMV but I’ve seen it go both ways.
@Esau
Doubtless, J, this fellow constitutes the “typical” bitter beta in your mind. If you can’t grasp how twisted and insulting this example is to all the actual bitter betas in the world who are actually excellent and worthwhile people, then there’s no point in anyone trying to explain it to you.
Actually, I said earlier that he was my “gamma orbiter,” so he isn’t quite beta in the parlance of the manosphere. And no, I don’t see him as the average guy who maybe be unhappily single. He has some bigger issues, obviously.
Despite his lack of “status,” I did regard him as a pretty sweet guy and a worthwhile person BEFORE he rejected the young lady out of hand. She also is a pretty sweet person, so I would not have saddled her with someone who was not worthwhile. I suppose I’m angry because I couldn’t help her out and because he continues to yearn like a sadsack for the impossible when he could have been happy with the possible. I do see perfectly average though desirable enough guys reject perfectly average though desirable enough girls for what seems to be little reason. They’ll say they can’t function with less attractive girl. Read some of the posts on Citizen Renegade. There are a number of guys who refer to themselves as ugly, but say that they can’t “chub” for less than a 7.5 or whatever.
Anon @ 6:21 is me.
As the writer/director/producer and interviewer of college students for my documentary, Spitting Game: The College Hook Up Culture, I can speak to the real threat of sexual assault that exists for freshman women on campus the first few weeks & months on any campus. Here is one of the startling stats that are included in my film!
“College students are the most vulnerable to rape during the first few weeks of the freshman year. In fact, the first few days of the freshman year are the riskiest, limiting the value of any rape prevention programs that begin after Research has shown that rapes of college women tend to occur after 6 p.m., and the majority occur after midnight.”
Source site: http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/
Why Some College Men Rape
In studies in the early 1980s and 1990s, approximately one-third of college men reported they would rape a woman if they knew they would not get caught. 46 Given the number of college women raped, researchers have tried to explain the problem’s prevalence:
Some men have stereotypic views of women’s sexual behavior. In light of the high number of rapes, researchers believe that rape is not the product of psychopathic behavior; rather it is the product of mainstream beliefs about women’s role in sexual situations. 47 For example, many men are socialized to believe that women initially resist sexual advances to preserve their reputation and, because of this, prefer to be overcome sexually. If a woman says no, a man is to proceed as if she said yes. In addition, some men believe that if a woman is a “tease” or “loose,” she is asking for sex. If she then claims rape, she changed her mind after the fact. Such men generally believe that most rapes are false reports.
Some college men have sexist attitudes and seek sexual conquests. Some men simply do not care about women’s feelings. “They have learned that what counts, in the popular sports term invariably adopted… is that they ‘score.’”48
Some men see alcohol as a tool for sexual conquest. While alcohol use does not cause rape, “alcohol abuse is strongly related to abuse of women.”49 In addition, many college men may be unaware that having sex with someone who is drunk is rape.
Some men receive peer support for sexually abusive behavior. Sexually abusive men often are friends with and loyal to other sexually abusive men and get peer support for their behavior, fostering and legitimizing it.50 During the 1980s and 1990s, a series of rapes in fraternity houses, and subsequent cover-ups by fraternity members, suggested to researchers that certain all-male living arrangements foster unhealthy environments conducive to rape. 51
Spitting Game: The College Hook Up Culture
http://www.collegehookupculture.com
Swirly: Sticking a girl’s head in a toliet after you have sex with her.
How can this be possible? It must be fabricated or exaggerated. My mind cannot wrap itself around this. How absolutely inhumane!
J: “I do see perfectly average though desirable enough guys reject perfectly average though desirable enough girls”
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Beyond the world of anecdotes, there is a cleaner and more objective way to address the question of who is or is not picky and what options they have.
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Imagine a regular community of singles, like the HUS demographic of college/early 20′s. Now imagine lining all the men up in order of their general sexual attractiveness (ie as averaged over all women’s tastes, not yours specifically; even though everyone’s tastes differ there are well-defined, objective ways to make such a rank ordering). Remember, this is ordering by functional attractiveness, including all relevant characteristics and not just good looks. Now pick the man right in the middle of the lineup; he’s the 50th percentile (by definition) in attractiveness, so we’ll call him M50.
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Clear so far? Good. Now, imagine the 50th percentile woman in the same community, whom we’ll call W50. The operative, objective question is: can M50 successfully get any action (ie date, sex, marriage, whatever) with W50? Remember it’s not allowed to say “yes he can if he’s charming enough or learns Game”; his skill level is already fixed and encoded in his ranking. The question is, operating just as he always does, can M50 get it on with W50? You have to imagine an answer for the people you imagine, but I don’t think I’m going out very far on a limb to say that the answer is almost certainly NO, in no uncertain terms. M50 can’t pull W50, just like M60 can’t pull W60 and M70 can’t pull W70 (maybe M80 has a chance with W80, but now we’re into player territory).
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This is just another, slightly geekier way of describing hypergamy: women in the middle of the pack won’t, as a general rule, give the time of day to their male counterparts across the aisle. So, before you go off on any tirades about average guys rejecting average girls, remember that the base behavior is quite the other way around.
@Anon
No argument here. I will say that it’s a small subset of men who behave this way. The most sexually aggressive males congregate in frats/teams and share their exploits with one another. There is probably some exaggeration that goes into the reporting of these “conquests.” What I simply cannot understand is how any woman would permit herself to be degraded with a swirly. My guess is that it’s done to girls who are blackout drunk for the amusement of the “bros.”
Hmmm, I don’t think this is correct. This implies ignoring a woman’s refusal and committing sexual assault. I am quite certain Game does not advocate any such thing. What Game does is suggest remaining dominant and providing reassurance to the ASD so that a woman feels more comfortable moving forward. In the end, the goal is her acquiescence, not rape.
@Esau
Wikipedia: Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as marrying up) is the act or practice of seeking a spouse of equal or higher socioeconomic status, or caste status than oneself.
You may be right that equal status doesn’t cut it – I honestly don’t know. But if you’re rewriting the definition of hypergamy, you should have evidence to back that up.
To Anonymous: Sorry to report that the term “Swirly Girl” and “Swirlies” is fairly well known within the set (most likely not a sub-set) of college age men who watch internet porn. If you dare to check the internet you will find disgusting sites with names like, tolietbowlbitches and swirliegirls. Hard to say how many crazy drunk guys would actually attempt to do this to a girl they have had sex with, but it does happen. I have confidentially spoken to a frat guy who had been running a Fantasy Sex League for 3 years with six other guys. And this was out of a very well respected university in the Chicago area. He gave me detailed super insider information about his escapades. The things he confided in me are really unmentionable here in this blog. He said he had finally stopped running the league that he now wanted to purge himself in my documentary with his identity disguised. Suffice it to say that the bros ALWAYS have a code of silence they swear by and they live by the motto “Bros before Hos.” So it stands to reason that anything that has been divulged to me is probably just the tip of the ice berg.
Fact of the matter is that all women are different.
Everyone in this article seems to want to make women victims of something or as “losing” something one way or another. They say the “virginal” ones are being left out for not giving out sex and tsking the finger at the sluts for making it that way…..but then they are also shaking the finger at the sluts for being slutty and not realizing how “bad” it is to be slutty and how “sad” they’ll be.
The truth is that sex is meaningless generally speaking. For men, for women, and especially when referring to “hook ups”.
Everyone speaks as if these women are doing something “bad”. They’re not. They’re also not doing something “good”. They’re just making their own personal choices based on their lifestyles, wants, and needs…..just like men always have.
I see no problem with women just wanting to “hook up” as long as they are aware that them giving up sex is NOT going to make a guy like you more or want you more. But it also does not make a guy want you less or like you less.
There seems to be an obsession on both sides of the fence about female sexuality as if it’s different than male sexuality or as if the “value” of a female slut is “lesser” than that of a male slut. There isn’t.
A woman who sleeps with a lot of guys is just a woman who sleeps with a lot of guys. A man who sleeps with a lot of women is just a man who sleeps with a lot of women. And if that woman and that and that and met one day and fell in love…..guess what? They’d still “love” each other like everyone else, still get married or maybe have babies, and still accept eachother just like everyone else does.
This ludicrous idea that women have a different sexual “wiring” than men is SO antiquated and makes the writers who promote it look like dinosaurs. And worse…..fools.
Women DON’T need men and men DON’T need women. Why is that a problem for so many people? We are just humans meant to work and maybe bear offspring and then die. Sexual conquest, value, or “dating” are not a part of that equation and they don’t matter.
These women are not “slutting it up” to gain or earn something…..nor to lose something. Anyone ever consider that they’re just normal humans who LIKE SEX with a variety of men? There is no scientifically “more monogamous” gender and never has been.
They’re just outdated and stupid ideals put in place mostly by men….and church ladies.
Everyone needs to stop crying a river about it and realize that women can have sex with as many men as they please all day long and it doesn’t change anything about her value, character, or desirability either way (as long as she’s being honest and practicing safe sex, of course).
The men who judge women on her sexual past/notch count are sexist assholes that no women want to date or settle down with anyway.
Take a breath, ladies. It’s been OUR world for awhile and we can live however we want to with no repercussions. Whether as sluts or virgins, we are responsible for ourselves and aren’t victims nor “children” in care of men anymore.
It’s a wonderful time we live in and the people shaming these girls are just dinosaurs who are too out of touch to understand reality, life, and the nature of human beings.
I have a new post up based on some of the early comments by Badger Nation and Esau:
http://gameformarriage.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-and-how-should-honest-self-aware.html
Two basic rules for avoiding really painful heartbreak at the hands of players, asshats, and douchebags (nod to Susan’s video)
TWO: Don’t seek out friends among people whose idea of a good time IS alcohol and sex galore!
This article says it all, even if it doesn’t directly address the issue of hookups and sex. The popularity of such places and the huge % of young people who go there tells me more about how unimaginative the mainstream is about finding excitement than it does how “cool” these places are.
<a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/13/fashion.comment>Nightclubs Are Hell: What’s So Cool About a Thumpy, Sweating Dungeon Full of Posing Idiots?</a>
And did I forget to mention these are the very places where players, asshats, and douchebags are most likely to frequent?
<a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/13/fashion.comment>”Nightclubs Are Hell: What’s So Cool About a Thumpy, Sweating Dungeon Full of Posing Idiots?”</a>
If you dare to check the internet you will find disgusting sites with names like, tolietbowlbitches and swirliegirls.
Thanks for the heads up! My investigations shall begin forthwith. Always learning something new on this blog.
I have confidentially spoken to a frat guy who had been running a Fantasy Sex League for 3 years with six other guys. And this was out of a very well respected university in the Chicago area. He gave me detailed super insider information about his escapades. The things he confided in me are really unmentionable here in this blog
And it is precisely *THESE* ^^^ escapades which are hidden from the popular media, from the underground, even hidden from your average everyday college student. But these folks represent the APEX of the sexual market place. Meanwhile, clueless betas and omegas stare mutely into their computer screens as they forlornly stretch and yank thier puds.
The life that existed below my awareness in HS and c0llege was eventually revealed to me — and truth be told, I mlre than made up for lost time — but I’m still left with the thought that if even a fraction of the “outsiders” were given a *smidgen* of the truth on what they were missing out on (the parties, the orgies, the debauchery) their hair would turn fucking WHITE — that is, if they didn’t simply revolt and pull a Sodini.
But it’s probably best for all involved that we delimit our discussions to the 3rd and 4th tier levels of the SMP on college campuses.
I mean, really, come on — fricken SWIRLIES???
Can you imagine what might go on in the mind of a boy who falls for a doe-eyed, sun-browned girl who enchants him with her feminine charm, only to later learn that she played the sucky-fucky porno slut to some neanderthal frat rat? Or did the group sex thing? Andn afterwards, was the same dainty, charming debutante?
It fucks with a young man’s mind LET ME TELL YOU
…did regard him as a pretty sweet guy and a worthwhile person BEFORE he rejected the young lady out of hand.
Note: rejection didntjust ADD to previous description one flaw (“too picky”), but aslo NEGATED all values previously seen in him.
…and along comes Lady Raine to casually repeat Ms. Berry’s every “argument” at the end of the thread. It’s hard to belly laugh when you’re bent over in a face-palm, but I’m making it work.
Ah, Lady Raine. First, let me say that everything you have stated is your opinion. You have provided no real evidence for any of your claims, except your implied personal experience. Most of what you say has been proven to be untrue for the vast majority of people. In over 300 posts on this blog, I have provided a plethora of information from academic studies and research that directly contradict your claims, so I won’t take you on point by point here.
This statement alone:
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…reveals such a lack of personal responsibility and ignorance of the reality of consequences for behavior that I don’t believe you have the self-awareness or objectivity to engage in discussion.
See ladies? Slutting it up won’t have any bad consequences or damage your ability to form a trusting bond with a good man and find lasting happiness in the future! And to prove it, we have the word of a jaded 30-something single mother who says she doesn’t need men!
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Okay, in all non-sarcasm, what I find to be truly sad is not just that LR’s son is going to have to deal with the known psychological consequences of not having a father, but that the one parent he does have thinks like this:
Perhaps, LR, if you love your son and care about his well-being as much as your own, you ought to worry a little bit less about justifying yourself and convincing everyone that your behavior has no repercussions, and a little bit more about what those repercussions are and how to minimize them.
@ Lady Raine
I call bullsh*t on this one. Choices have consequences. Its something I tell my 2-year old and it applies to adult women as well. Leaving aside STD’s for the moment, if attraction is part conditioning, as we saw with Casey’s post earlier, then clearly decisions to hook up earlier on in life can affect choices taken later in life. I have no problem with any decisions regarding sex. I just want women not to think of men as a kind of smorgasbord. That dehumanizes men as tools of women’s needs and desires, and undermines a man’s agency. If one kind of sex floated your boat earlier in life, a man has every right to know this, especially if he sees sex differently. As I said in a comment in an earlier post, do whatever you need to scratch the itch, but don’t search for something different just because you want commitment and babies. It is this inability to accept the consequences of decisions taken earlier in life that has led to so much heartache for men.
I also belief that the inability to accept the consequences of past sexual behavior, obvious or otherwise, has also been the source of so much suffering for children, which, as a father, is my primary concern. I have seen it personally. Sex is a choice, but an extremely important one.
Hi Esau,
I understand your scenario. Yet somehow W50 usually marries M50, W60 usually marries M60, and so on.
understand how hard the short-run is for men, but I also have some really unpleasant memories of my dating years and I was no alpha-chaser. My recollection of those years is that men love sluts, dumb sluts in particular. In the end, however, I married a guy who is basically my male counterpart. Waiting to find him, however, wasn’t fun.
Hmmm, I don’t think this is correct. This implies ignoring a woman’s refusal and committing sexual assault. I am quite certain Game does not advocate any such thing. What Game does is suggest remaining dominant and providing reassurance to the ASD so that a woman feels more comfortable moving forward. In the end, the goal is her acquiescence, not rape.
Game suggests that men push past LMR–Last Minute Resistence–because no means “I don’t want you to see me as a slut.” I think there’s big potential, desire and ego being what they are, for a man to confuse LMR with lack of consent. I’d further go on to say that many of the cases men see as false accusations of rape/date rape come from women who wanted to enjoy a little making out but didn’t want to go all the way. The accused no doubt saw her no as LMR that he could overcome. Then he is surprised that “she changed her mind the next day.” There’s a lot of room on both sides for signals to get crossed. If I were a guy I think I’d wait to hear, “Oh, baby, I want you so much.” before I tried to convince some girl she wanted me.
@The Deuce at 10:23
As a married mom of two sons, ditto.
@LR
Church ladies? I’m no church lady tsking at world going by her, but I have to say that when you compare the wisdom of the pupit to the wisdom of the pole, the pole loses. And while I’m not in favor of shaming single mothers, I do believe that being raised by his own biological father, provided the father isn’t an alpha thug, conveys advantages on a boy that a being raised by a woman alone does not.
Note: rejection didntjust ADD to previous description one flaw (“too picky”), but aslo NEGATED all values previously seen in him.
No, we continue to be friends; he continues to orbit me hopelessly. I just won’t try to fix him up again. And, if my husband leaves me or dies tomorrow, this guy is going to be very disappointed when his fantasy doesn’t come true. I can deal with the scar, but I have no desire to try to support my kids while taking on him and his mother as an extra burden. And that ain’t hypergamy, it’s survival.
@LR (could be a troll)
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What are the boundaries of your “world”? Must be those tiny rings around slut pockets in major cities and on some campuses. Less than 18% of American have four-year university degrees so that peters your world down quite a bit. And avoiding urban anonymous females is a cinch. In fact, avoiding American women has been MUCH easier as “its been our world for awhile” -American men do accept invitations to screw your ilk in the US (thank you very much) and fish for women way outside the hook up cesspool from which you will never get out of. Now thats a two-world system with absolutely no repercussions for men, and only men.
@J
This gets to the question of whether the standard is No Means No or Yes Means Yes. If a woman says no, and the guy keeps trying to convince her (and this does not include sticking his penis into her vagina) she is perfectly capable of reiterating her lack of consent, or should be. In the past (Antioch College sexual policy for students), some have suggested that a man must receive a yes at each moment of escalation. May I touch your boob, etc.
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The reality is that most consensual sex does not include a discussion requesting or granting permission. Personally, I think it’s more common for women who don’t want to have sex to refuse, than for women who do want to have sex to request it or give permission. Obviously, being incapacitated by alcohol changes everything – most states have laws saying that sexual consent may not be given by a woman who is inebriated. Not surprisingly, a great deal of sexual assault occurs in exactly these circumstances.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/22/steven-crowder-sex-abstinence-michelle-obama-little-debbie-stds-love/
@ Susan and those less familiar with LR
…reveals such a lack of personal responsibility and ignorance of the reality of consequences for behavior that I don’t believe you have the self-awareness or objectivity to engage in discussion.
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I don’t have the time right now to dig up the link and exact quote (but it is there on LR’s blog) but she is on the record as stating that it is a GOOD thing for ALL women to engage in sex work such as stripping and prostitution as a source of extra income. That right there pretty much tells you all you need to know.
She truly epitomizes the absolute worst of the modern American woman. God help her son. The season premiere of Criminal Minds just last week comes to mind.
Re LR,
She also posted about how to engage in all sorts of reprehensible, unethical, and potentially illegal activity to destroy another person’s life and reputation. I’m sorry…I know it is OT for this blog….but she really is a disgusting human being.
@Susan
“Ladyboner” is funny (because it’s true), but you gotta stop with the “ladyballs”. Seriously.
P.S.
Thanks for the new desktop background!
YOUR choice. LR and her friends don’t have a pot to piss in or a leg to stand on.
http://www.oriental-womens.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/penpal-international.jpg
http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/vel20/uploaded_images/jessicavalenti-780401.jpg
Better links
http://s4.hubimg.com/u/1335231_f248.jpg
http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/vel20/uploaded_images/jessicavalenti-780401.jpg
@SW
In the past (Antioch College sexual policy for students), some have suggested that a man must receive a yes at each moment of escalation. May I touch your boob, etc.
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There’s some obvious awkwardness in that, but if you are dealing with a stranger, perhaps being sure is not such a bad thing. From a PUA point of view, it’s a bad strategy because it gives the girl time to think and maybe reconsider risky behavior, but it would prevent a lot of bad feeling the morning after.
The reality is that most consensual sex does not include a discussion requesting or granting permission.
Maybe it should. There’s the crux BTW of what’s wrong with casual sex. If it doesn’t hold up to negotiation and discussion, maybe you shouldn’t do it, maybe you don’t really want to.
@Teflon
YOUR choice. LR and her friends don’t have a pot to piss in or a leg to stand on.
YOUR choice. Young Asian fashions models in full make-up and hair do, whom you will never meet oand who probably look quite different IRL or decent-looking over 30 woman whose looks your insulting because you don’t like her politics. Nothing exists in between? C’mon now.
You’re right J
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This is more realistic
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http://www.online-dating-rights.com/forum/index.php?topic=1220.0
Mike:
Hah, Susan shouldn’t discourage hooking up because “all women are different” and her advice might not apply to every single one of them, but sex work, now that can be recommended to everybody.
.
Can you even imagine a more obvious case of someone abandoning logic and reason wholesale in order to justify and rationalize away the foolishness and repercussions of their own horrible life choices? I think that describes the majority of these sex+ feminists, actually. Sure they’re bitter and can’t find a man who wants an aging slut for anything more than a last-resort roll in the hay, but that’s good see, cause that just proves that all those men are dinosaurs who they wouldn’t want anyhow! They’re happy dammit! HAPPY!
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Btw, notice how LR went from claiming that sluttery doesn’t diminish a woman’s worth in mens’ eyes, to claiming that men who don’t want sluts for LTRs are “sexist assholes” and “dinosaurs” who no woman wants anyway? She couldn’t even keep her story straight for one post. Any girls reading these comments and mulling Susan’s advice, take heed: this could be you.
Hmmm.
Sorry to several of the commenters like Deuce and several others (that I have never heard of nor spoken to in my life) who seem to think I’m backing some person named “Berry” or other women.
I have no idea who you are referring to, nor do I care. I don’t read/follow any popular Feminists or their ideas/beliefs so I don’t appreciate the ludicrous accusations as if I’m in cahoots with them…..let alone repeating things they say. Perhaps they have some similar beliefs as I do, but I would have no idea whether or not that’s true.
Second, not a single person who replied to my post actually addressed the fact that my comment chastised BOTH sides of the fence and did NOT promote the virgins OR the sluts.
I specifically stated that I think the women who find sluttiness “empowering” are silly as well as the women who think being virginal is “empowering”. And yet…..every commenter chose to irrationally cling to just 50% of my statement….and then dissolved into bizarre and baseless personal accusations against me and didn’t address my actual comment at all. Including Susan who just claimed her posts were based on “fact”.
Could you please provide the links or source of the “facts” that back up these opinion pieces of yours, Susan? Because all I see is interviews with College Kids and entertainment articles linked as your “facts”.
I see the intellectual level of the discussions here is not very high nor very diverse.
None of my original comment referred to ME personally, my personal preferences,nor my personal life or choices at all. So I’m not sure why anyone here even referenced what they *think* they know about me as a person. I assure you that you’re clueless to knowing anything about me at all and are probably better served keeping your arguments to the facts and not hysterical gossip and slapfighting.
My personal life was never mentioned and yet even Susan attempted to attack ME personally instead of my actual comment which simply boiled down to: “Sex is just sex and every man and woman have/want different things. A woman who likes sex with a variety of men is just that. Nothing more and nothing less. Same with the men who have the same interest.”
Technically any and ALL sex/dating that does not result in bearing children is considered “valueless” and “meaningless” and there is no argument that can be made against that simple fact.
I also said that only applied IF the woman was “being honest and practicing safe sex”.
I won’t even address the ludicrous and downright libelous accusations of things that I’ve allegedly said, quoted, or done because I refuse to defend myself against idiotic lies and general slapfighting like that.
And Susan…..your comment addressed nothing I said. And your posts are the only ones based on “opinion”. That is because your beliefs are based on “social opinion” or “social norms’ if you prefer and those ARE and always have been…..just “opinion”.
MY views are based on Anthropology, Zoology,and Science which states that women are only SLIGHTLY more likely to want/need monogamy. It also states that women are no more/less likely to “cheat” or “need to cheat” than men are. The same goes for wanting/needing sex with a variety of partners.
Those are simple facts (and percentages) that if you simply research yourself, you will find to be true. I’m sorry, but Science and actual fact hold a lot more water than your personal (what appears to be) moral/religious opinion nor useless social opinion.
As for everyone else…..do not misquote me or post things that I have never said/done myself unless you are prepared to provide the link where I actually made those comments or assertations because there is no reason for me to answer you, acknowledge you, or engage you in any discussion if you cannot do that.
The childish and hysterical mudslinging and libel IS amusing and rather flattering…..but so far off any truths about ME personally that you might as well have called me a “chink” or a “ni–er” as far as it applying to me.
From now on please attempt some reading comprehension and actually address the comment I made…..not randomly repeat gossip about my personal life or beliefs that you may as well have gotten out of the National Enquirer.
In closing, no one here has any idea about my life, my situation, my character, my job, or me personally and those of you have attempted to speak on those subjects have already made yourselves look like the gossipy, hysterical low-brow sorts of people that you clearly are.
LR spews:
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True, he will not want and like you less. For sex. The Sex+ attitude cannot advance unless men buy into it. That means that men have to accept that sharing vagina with other men is perfectly fine when hooking up and fine for marrying. They refuse to see the difference. Men are comrads. We share a lot. We lend each other things. But just like precious and dear family memorabilia that have deeply tied meaning to our lives, there are some things we never share. So, you sex+ cronies, get the hell out of our lives and our personal reasons for deciding on what is acceptable or not acceptable when choosing a life partner.
@Teflon
Are you calling my attention to the girl whose picture is under this line: “My answer to the racists is:”?
She’s a pretty enough girl. Russian? I’ve seen many American girls just as pretty. Oddly enough, she sort of looks like a younger Jessica Valenti to me. Maybe it’s the bangs? The face shape? The long, thin nose?
Sorry Susan for the OT stuff, delete it if you want, light is a disinfectant, and I think people should know that kind of person this is:
As for everyone else…..do not misquote me or post things that I have never said/done myself unless you are prepared to provide the link where I actually made those comments or assertations because there is no reason for me to answer you, acknowledge you, or engage you in any discussion if you cannot do that.
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http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/03/23/why-we-banned-lady-raine/
http://ladyraine.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/stuff-thats-awesome-german-u-boats/#comment-998
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To the other stuff, I would simply note that she did not directly refute or deny any of it. I’m kinda surprised she hasn’t pulled a Roissy and purged some of this stuff like the comment above.
Hey everyone. Just got back from a big home win. Campus is really excited right now. Interestingly enough, I have a few recent anecdotes that can relate to this post. I’ll share one of them now.
As most of you know, I’m one of those “athletes” Susan is warning the ladies about here(I play football at an Ivy). Being in a D-1 lockeroom affords your ears access to a whole lot of interesting things, many of them about the opposite sex.
This particular anecdote comes from a post practice shower(we all do it together in one big shower room, like most teams). It’s a big conversation time for the guys. The two having this conversation are:
Player 1: A skill position player, average height, very muscular build(6% body fat and, like most of us, he does a ton of curls and benches well over 300). He’s a white male and a junior. Is arguably the best at his position in the league, holds more than one school record, highly decorated. He’s probably one of the best athletes on our team. He is one of the most self assured, confident(borderline cocky, actually) kids I’ve ever met, and is a fiery competitor. He carries a ton of swag, and we all know how girls can’t get enough of that.
Player 2: Plays the same position as player one, and is of the same ethnicity and age. Is much bigger but not nearly as athletic. He and player one have somewhat similar personalities, though player 2 has slightly less of the “swagger” player one carries. Player 2′s persona is actually more like the stereotypical “bro”. He drinks a lot and likes to use terms you’d find on bro bible like “slampiece”. Gordon Gekko is probably his favorite fictional character(bordering on idol). He is probably player one’s closest friend on the team.
Both of these guys can be called Alphas. They regularly do well with women and have been for most of their lives. Player 2 even had a bad reputation as a “player” for a while last year, so much so that some of his conquests were going online and anonymously trying to slander him.
The Freshmeat on Campus: The subject of this conversation is an 18 year old girl who is an athlete and just arrived on campus. She is actually quite beautiful, one of the better looking freshmen I’ve seen here so far(and this class is pretty good). She first came here way back in spring of 2010 on her official visit, and during that visit she had a one night stand with player 1. They’re from the same state, so there is a pretty good chance that his status as one of the better players in the region played a role(that, and he has a ton of game).
The Conversation(as I heard it-I’m not of a high enough social status on this team to interact with them that frequently or closely, but every so often I do passively participate in conversations with them).
——————
Player 1: I just don’t want any clingers, man.
Player 2: I hear you there. You just gotta draw the line somewhere.
Player 1: Its just that there are so many chicks here right now, I just don’t have time for this. Like, I don’t need this drama right now.
Me: Wait a second…are you guys talking about [Girl #1]? I met her dude, she’s pretty(authors note: I’d met her a week before at a party).
Players 1 and 2 nod and smile.
Me: I dunno dude, that girl is pretty fine. I mean, you’re not going to find a hotter girl here.
Player 2: I mean I’m not gonna deny the girl credit. She’s cute, but when a girl lets you smash in one night? Nah.
Player 1: And again…there’s just so much to sample. [He goes on to talk about a few girls in one of the hot sororities on campus that he has his eye on this season].
Player 2: I see it this way. Like, you can have one cute, solid slampiece. I’m talking about a girl who you see on any one night and can automatically say ‘Yeah, we’re gonna fuck after this’. That’s totally ok. But when she starts asking to see you and trying to eat with you at the cafeteria or whatever? You gotta draw the line there. Yeah, we can fuck and all, but going to get food together and all that shit is just out.
Player 1: Exactly man.
Player 2: Especially since once chicks on this campus see you out like that with one girl they close up to you for like a month. Its horrible.
I was pretty much tuned out of the conversation at that point(when you’re not in people’s friend group you can’t expect them to keep you in the convo for long) so i left, but that story is about in line with the many others i’ve heard(and is probably the clearest example of the mentality Susan is talking about).
Keep in mind that both of these guys are decent people. If you met them in person you’d conclude that they were decent kids because they really are good. But this mentality is very widespread, and girls ought to recognize it. The freshman in question is highly sought after right now anyway(literally every single guy on campus has or is planning to make a move) but I’m sure she probably wishes things had gone differently.
Keep in mind that this is at a school with a) not a lot of people b) not a big sports culture like you find at state schools and c) more boys than girls(limiting male choice/promiscuity to a degree). Even here with those factors these types of things go on. These kids have groupies,” slampieces”, etc, etc. And this isn’t even a big football school. I’m sure you can imagine the field day that star players at places like Clemson, Georgia, Boston College, Florida or [Insert large football program/state school name here] are having.
Trust me when I say it gets really wild.
@Mike
She also posted about how to engage in all sorts of reprehensible, unethical, and potentially illegal activity to destroy another person’s life and reputation. I’m sorry…I know it is OT for this blog….but she really is a disgusting human being.
I wasn’t around for that chapter of the Great Debacle, but I believe the other party introduced images of a minor child into battle. BOTH parties behaved poorly in outing the other.
Hey LR, the mighty objective one, this seems to spew from you:
If a man says nothing but merely decides not to marry her based on her notch hopping, is he a sexist asshole? Does a feeling of disgust and discomfort make a man a sexist asshole? Personal feelings and decisions are just that…personal. If a man dates a women who lives in the Philippines because he does not want to fish from the microcosmic hook up pool in the West is he also a sexist asshole? Typical knee jerk idiot you are LR.
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I will libel you all I want. Deal with it.
Males who are sexually loose are just as repulsive to me (personally) as females who are. IMHO all college age males should be chemically castrated if they want to attend college (especially if on a government grant).
The PUA sleazebags and the skanks who eff with them all need a serious slap upside the head.
Which goes to show that you didn’t even read the original topic before commenting (as was apparent from your first comment), which in turn gives a pretty good indication of just how much value we should place on your blather about reading comprehension and the level of intellectual discourse here, and perhaps suggests an explanation for why you seem so ignorant about the facts and statistics surrounding relationships.
To the ladies talking about how bad it sucks to “wait” to be approached:
Just don’t wait! I don’t like being approached and I know that most men really, really like to be “let off the hook” in terms of having to be the approacher, so I’ve always approached men I’m interested in and just tell them flat-out. I thought that was something that at least half of other women do, but I’ve learned (since blogging) that apparently most women still don’t do that and/or feel uncomfortable doing so and I was really shocked.
Lots of women are too busy to “wait” to be approached or just don’t want to play silly mind games and pretend to be “shy and submissive” like me, so I urge women to just go ahead and do what I do if you really hate the waiting like some here say they do.
If I see a man who’s physically attractive/catches my interest and I want him to take me on a date, I just walk right up and tell him exactly that and it has worked out for me 100% of the time. I go up to him, smile slightly, and say: “I’ve decided that you should take me on a date.” Then I drop my number and walk away before he has time to think or respond and they always, always call within the next 1-3 days (my personal experience, of course…..)
I think the reason it works so well every time is mostly because men are SO relieved and SO surprised at the same time to have a woman doing the approaching, that they are curious as to what you’re ‘all about’ and call you to plan the date just for that reason.
Whatever the underlying reason is, it still gets you the date and most certainly gets his attention above all other women. While they’re sitting around and waiting for some dude to look her way …..YOU’RE already on a lovely date with him!
I’d recommend women doing that whenever a man catches her fancy (assuming she’s interested in dating at that time, obviously).
There is no reason to sit around worrying, waiting, and sending schoolgirlish “signals”. Men love it when you approach them and as I said…..there’s no doubt it makes you stand out from the other ladies pining away and fluttering their eyelashes pathetically.
The worst that could happen is he says “No, thanks” or doesn’t call. *Shrugs* No harm, no foul, right? Just ask a different guy out, then.
Deuce–
I think you missed the point. How can I speak for these “women” you refer to when I’ve never heard of them nor know what they are promoting? As for the actual article cited (here) I did not promote a single thing in it. I argue that sluttiness is NOT empowering or valuable and nor is being “virginal”.
The article does NOT cite those statements, therefore there is no way I could be “backing” the things the article says.
I think it’s a pretty simple concept to understand and yet you desperately want to cling to whatever psychotic beliefs you have.
I was also referring to the people who are discussing Jessica Valenti and other noted “feminists” in comparing their beliefs/arguments to mine. I don’t follow any famous feminist names and had never heard of Valenti until about a year ago reading around the blogosphere and hearing people hate on her or love her.
The only “Feminists” I really admire are Susan B. Anthony and Gloria Steinem (who is a reasonable, attractive woman who clearly does not hate men as a gender) and I did not see them mentioned here, so I doubt that’s who anyone was referring to.
If you can point out any comments I’ve made suggesting that I agree with college girls acting like huge sluts and it being “empowering”, I’d be happy to see you quote and repost them. But since you and I both know I did NOT say that or allude to it in any way, I think you already know you’ll have nothing to quote.
Just more hysterics and libel.
100 percent??!! really, it “worked out” for you every time? Wow! I mean, what is your secret? How do you overcome the challenge? You are such a great conqueror.
Mike–
I have never once stated that all women should engage in prostitution. I have also never said that women should “try” prostitution. I never have, so why would I recommend it to other women when I know nothing about it?? That doesn’t make any sense, dear.
I have also never said that all women should try stripping. It’s definitely not for the sensitive types or women who feel guilty being hired to “take as much money from men as you can and make sure they become ‘addicted’ to you”.
What I HAVE said is that “If prostitution were LEGAL and government-regulated/safe and occurred only in registered brothels (and never on the streets)….MOST women would be registered sex workers.”
I have also said that stripping is an excellent choice for a second job and/or lucrative income. There is nothing false about that statement, either.
And that is a factual statement, because in nations where prostitution IS legal and is regulated by the Federal Government, approximately 80% of women married or single are registered as “sex workers” (prostitutes).
Stripping in general is completely unrelated to prostitution, so I don’t know how you managed to lump them together. I cannot speak for the laws/rules in clubs in other nations, but here in my state in the United States…..strippers are not allowed to be touched at ANY time for ANY reason nor are the dancers allowed to touch the men for any reason. I did work in one strip club for approximately 8 months of my life as a second income (I was a Quality Control Inspector full-time during the day) and can only speak for THAT club, but men who so much as slapped a girl on the butt on the way by were held until the police arrived and the dancer was required to press assault charges against him right then and there. Dancers were also not permitted to do “lap dances” at any time and were required to wear floor length evening gowns everywhere except on stage.
I don’t know what kind of “strip clubs” YOU go to, but any woman with sense knows that she can make a safe, lucrative income dancing in a reputable club. It’s a matter of the woman being wise and selective and carefully looking into any/all clubs she is thinking about working in before she ends up in some sort of brothel that just appears to be a regular strip club.
I don’t know if you think I’m ashamed of my dancing, but I consider it a wise business move for any woman. And it also has nothing to do with my personal life. The dancers are hired specifically to take money from men who are dying to spend it looking at them dance. That’s what they are hired for. If you foolishly think the girls are working there because they find it “sexy” or are picking up “dates” there, you’re seriously out of touch with reality. It’s a business and any dancer with smarts knows that you have to keep it very professional if you want to continue to make huge money. No man or “side deal” is worth losing a job that pays so well and being blacklisted from working at other clubs on top of it.
Typically you only see the druggies doing that sort of thing to feed their addiction and only the low-rent clubs allow drugs or drinking on the part of the dancers OR the clientele. The place I worked at didn’t even serve alcohol and closed and Midnight on the dot.
So again, please pull up any/all comments of mine where I suggested that illegal prostitution of ANY kind was something “all women should do”……or even ANY women should do. I never said it and you are flat out lying and now are caught.
Teflon Exsplat said:
Challenge?? I’m sorry I don’t understand what you mean. What could be challenging about asking a man out?!
But yes, that’s correct. Every time I have asked a man to take me out/asked him out he has done so. That equals 100%. What do you find confusing about that?
Obviously, I target men that I *personally* find attractive just like every other human on earth does when dating, so typically I’m approaching men that probably have the same interests/likes/dislikes as I do and are approximately the same attractiveness level as I am.
I don’t see what you could possibly find discrepant about my statement. I have never NOT received a call back/date resulting from doing that, but I think you are mistakenly assuming that I hit on men or am looking to date often. That’s not the case. It’s rare that I see a man who is attractive/interesting enough for me to want to bother approaching him or going on a date with him and typically I avoid dating even when asked because I have a child and have to be extra-selective about whom I date and how much.
I also don’t have the extra time for frivolous things like dating and men, either. I’m just not very into romance, dating, or relationships in general and have always been the one to “ditch out” on serious relationships and also budding romances. That’s a problem I have, obviously…..but it’s just the way I am.
However, that doesn’t mean that when I see a man I want to date that I have any reservations about asking him out. It never occurred to me that there should be a reason to NOT just approach him. I don’t like any beating around the bush or time-wasting. Nothing more sinister than that.
Deuce shrieks:
Once again, way to insert tons of things I never said nor alluded to. I didn’t even mention foreign women or men who date them. As far as that goes, men who complain about American women DO need to expatriate and/or seek a foreign women and not continue to insult American women nor waste our time with their antics and complaints.
I adore American men and if I was disrespectful enough to cry about them and insult them all the time, I’d most certainly shut my mouth and just move somewhere else. Those are sort of the only options other than internet whining.
As for “notch hopping”: I said nothing about marriage. You did. Way to fly off on some tangent again. I said that a man who “notch hops” has NO right to show “repulsion or disgust” (as you put it) toward a woman who also has a high “notch count”. That makes him a sexist asshole and also a hypocrite, does it not?
In the same way, a woman who has a “high notch count” has no right to demand a virginal man and pretend that they are somehow allowed to be slutty…..but men they date are not.
Everything about your statement was fabricated in your mind. I never said any of those things and I’m sorry if that is what you assumed I meant, but it’s clear by the bit about “libeling all you want to” that you have no intention of posting anything but wild accusations, slander, and gossip which says all anyone needs to know about you.
Side note: Why do you keep alluding to “typical of Lady Raine” when I have never spoken to you in the past nor discussed anything with you that I am aware of?? I do not recall your ever visiting my blog or you and I debating elsewhere, either. So how exactly do you know what is “typical” or not typical of me?
LR:
Point me to where I said you did. There was nothing about hooking up being “empowering” either in Berry’s article or in anything else that I responded to. You seem to have imagined it out of nowhere, which is more evidence that you’re either not reading what your respond to or not comprehending it, and are just substituting your own template in its stead.
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What you did do is casually repeat Berry’s claims that hooking up doesn’t reduce womens’ value (and even one-upped it by claiming that womens’ choices have no repercussions at all) and that people shouldn’t advise against it because their advice might not apply equally to every single woman, seemingly ignorant of the fact that Susan’s post and various comments in this thread had been responding to exactly those claims.
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What your comments and behavior in this thread indicate is a high degree of self-absorption, which would explain why you seem to only hear what you want to hear instead of interacting with what people say, and are impervious to learning things you don’t want to.
That comment wasn’t even from me. Read again. Sheesh.
@TeflonExpat
I agree. To be honest, I’m always skeptical when someone tells me that they had amazing sex with a stranger. It’s theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely, that a man who doesn’t know you can push the right buttons, hit the right rhythm, all without emotional intimacy. Or that he would even care to try!
Oh lordy. If I recall correctly, she works for the police department in Baltimore. I’m picturing Lady Raine on The Wire. Perfect.
@Mike
In fairness, if that other person was Roissy, he started it. Everything she did, he had coming to him. From what I hear, he lost his job over it.
@J
Wise words there. By definition, most hookups involve impulsiveness and spontaneity. Thinking, and thinking again, would probably prevent a lot of unnecessary awkwardness, lousy sex, emotional pain, and STIs.
@Mike
OMG! I admit I’ve never been attracted to LR’s blog. She’s smarter than I would have thought, but her values are abhorrent to me. However, I cannot believe she made this statement in the comment you linked to:
I do recall that when she outed Roissy, she called him “Jimmy the Jew.” Have no fear, I promise that LR will not become a fixture here. Her anti-Semitism alone makes me feel entitled to ban her.
Mike posted:
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/03/23/why-we-banned-lady-raine/
http://ladyraine.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/stuff-thats-awesome-german-u-boats/#comment-998
Dude. Why did you link a post about the awesomeness of German U-Boats in relation to saying that I engage in “illegal activity”?
Why would I remove my U-Boat post? If you were so familiar with me, you’d already know that engineering is my greatest love along side my trade of Machining. German U-Boat technology was advanced and amazing and denying that is like denying the sky is blue. I don’t see what you could find offensive about that or why you think I’d delete any posts. Especially that one.
Just today I received an email from a current submariner who works for the Federal Government and commended me endlessly on that very same post on the German U-Boats. He said he wanted to repost my entire post and promote it, but could not because of his current position in the Military and the Government and the ridiculous “emotions” surrounding anything that happened in Germany during WWII. Including the superior technology. In case you weren’t aware, every Allied nation has copied German Military Technology ever since the U-Boats because anyone with knowledge of engineering could see how superior it truly was.
The politics of WWII were not the topic of my post at all and has nothing to do with engineering feats of Germany.
However, everyone knows that I think the Nazis are unfairly accused of being “evil” and are/were punished and stigmatized far too harshly. The leaders and SS highest officers were guilty of horrible war crimes, there is no doubt about that. But the common Nazi soldier/German citizen was simply doing what their government told them to do and were not offered an option other than “kill the Jews or die like they do”. They simply followed orders as they were required to do as loyal members of the Military. In case you weren’t aware, Nazi Germany was NOT a Democracy and none of those soldiers had a choice in the matter.
Punishing them for war crimes (other than the leaders themselves) is and was ludicrous and should be a crime in itself.
(PS: Thanks for linking my U-Boats post. That one as well as my post on the F-22 Raptor, the Queen Mary II, and the Great Pyramids “Internal Ramp Theory” are my most popular posts ever.)
Teflon–
I have no idea why you posted photos of Asian prostitutes or why posted a photo of Jessica Valenti (?) and said “LR and her kind”, but neither has anything to do with me….nor does Jessica V resemble me and I’m pretty sure I’m not Asian, either.
I’m German and Pennsylvania Dutch.
I have no idea what that was in reference to and attempting to insult my looks won’t get you far. I own a mirror and am aware of how attractive I am and am not. And I’m also not “30-something”. I’m 29 and will be 30 this November.
Sorry, but if you want to attempt to insult me, you should probably try something other than my looks since I’m pretty, well-educated, have my own income, and am in great shape being a Size 2. I’m happy to say I don’t work out or diet either…..and have never needed to.
But hey….if Asian prostitutes with fake boobs and cosmetic surgery is your thing, you certainly have the freedom to mail-order one or maybe get one of those hilarious “real life sex-dolls” so you can stop being so hateful and bitter about the fact that real life women just don’t want you. But don’t worry….you can always pay one to pretend you’re desirable. Anything that helps the ladies make more money!
@TeflonExpat
I’d also have to imagine that sex with someone whom you share trust, loyalty and open communication would be far more liberating than the thrill of any one-night stand you could enjoy
IME, that’s certainly true. In fact, I’d say married sex ix best for just those reasons. You get to be with someone who knows you, cares abo0ut you and wants to please you. You can throw out the ASD.
@Athlone
Congrats on the win! Honestly, I feel like you’re my eyes and ears on the ground. You’re like a Hooking Up Smart spy haha. Seriously, I cannot get enough of these anecdotes. Here are the most interesting highlights, IMO:
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She’s cute, but when a girl lets you smash in one night? Nah.
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Yeah, we can fuck and all, but going to get food together and all that shit is just out.
And this about the most beautiful girl on campus? That means: NO status in having a hot gf. None at all.
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once chicks on this campus see you out like that with one girl they close up to you for like a month. Its horrible.
It’s horrible? What, to have to do a little work to get laid?
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Meanwhile, this girl, is gorgeous, athletic and smart. What the hell is she doing? Question: How can it be that every guy on campus is planning to make a move? Do you mean just the alpha guys? And is that partially because they know she already put out for a ONS? I would think a lot of guys would assume a girl like that is out of their league. Just wondering.
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