Sordid and Tawdry

The Karen Owen story got picked up by the Today show this morning:

There are many photos of Owen; she is, ahem, not a looker. What blew my mind, though, was the appearance of Donna Rice Hughes as an internet safety expert. Sure enough, Google confirmed that she is the same Donna Rice that ended Gary Hart’s 1988 presidential campaign. No mention of her own scandalous history. Here’s a photo of the two of them on the yacht Monkey Business. He was married to somebody else at the time, obvs.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Yep, I saw that and could not watch the completion of it. I saw Donna Rice Hughes and started to laugh & then shook my head. The ‘sluts of yesteryear’ telling the sluts of today, ‘That’s just Too much, chillin’!’ on Today. Just so damn amazing. And still not really news. And why oh why is this used up old hag, now ‘born again’ as a moralistic scold & professional prude an authority on anything much? She’s just in your files as someone ‘easy to get on short notice’, right? What, some 22 years later and she’s still not changed in that respect, OK? Geez. Unwatchable. Not Newsworthy. Unspongeworthy. Somewhere Chet & David are still chuckling over this BS. “What happened to the news Chet? Well, it all sort of blew up in our faces when we thought the sluts were the story David. Madame Chiang Kai-shek or ‘Madame Mao’? Newsworthy. Marilyn Monroe’s sexcapades & Donna Rice et al? Much less so…” Yeah something like that. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • dragnet

    Okay, here we go:
     
    1) Karen Owen isn’t hot—but she’s not unattractive. She’s a 6…and done up, probably a 7.
     
    2) They mentioned mentioned the Duke Lacrosse scandal and that the charges were dropped…but somehow forgot to include that those guys where completely, totally innocent and railroaded by an unstable woman and a power grasping district attorney—all facilitated by a legal & social system that takes a woman’s word as largely infallible when it comes to rape accusations. And in doing so basically sets itself up for false charges and abuse.
     
    3) Women aren’t sold barely-there clothing and encouraged behave like whores for the benefit of men—they do this shit because they think it enables them to wield substantial power over men.The reason you see naked women in ads and shit isn’t because Corporate America cares about getting men off, so much as the fact that keeping men in a permanent state of sexual excitement is a good strategy when you are trying to control them. This notion that somehow raunch culture disproportionately victimizes “our girls” as opposed to boys is misandric.
     
    4) Donna Rice’s re-emergence proves that resurrection is possible for anyone. Really. All Lewinsky needs to do is lay low for a few decades with a crack team of professional media surgeons slowly rehabilitating her reputation, while preparing to storm cable news as the founder of the watchdog du jour at the first sign of any tempest-in-a-teapot scandal. All for the children, of course.

  • AlphaRising

    “Great stories for the grandkids” Hah! What a joke. There’s not going to be any grandkids; NOBODY will want to have kids with her. It never ceases to amaze me how these stupid women think their behavior doesn’t lower (or destroy) their marriage value
    I also noticed that she looks at least 7-8 years older than her age. Most sluts have that same type of “worn” look, like a car with higher mileage that has many little dings on it.

  • The Deuce

    Fantastic story to tell the grandkids about? Apparently it didn’t occur to her that you need grandkids for that.
    .
    I concur with dragnet. She’s about a 6. Her face is nothing to write home about, but it’s okay, and looks better in some of the pics where she’s made up, and she appears to have a pretty decent body.
    .
    She hasn’t got a prayer of snagging one of the lacrosse jocks she wasted four years jumping on, and never did. She could have (past tense) easily have gotten a pretty good quality dad type, but that ship has sailed. Can you imagine any guy, having read in her repwhoret about the experiences she describes, what she looks for in a sex partner, and what she thinks of guys who don’t meet her standards, actually wanting to subject himself to the indignity of marrying her? Even a guy who had the requisite boundless confidence would be very unlikely to waste it on her for more than another pump & dump, if he was interested at all. The only kind of dude who would even consider it is the exact opposite of what she likes – the extremely desperate, bottom-of-the-barrel Omega loser who actually gets off on being humiliated and feeling inadequate.

  • mjay

    No matter how sordid or how criminal the act: (1) women can do no wrong, and (2) there are always other women around to defend what was done.
     
     

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    And…..Tracy Clark-Flory of Salon defends Karen Owen as a healthy, normal woman who did nothing wrong. A victim of the internet.

    http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/10/07/karen_owen/index.html

  • clarence

    Susan:
    TCF’s defense isn’t really all that bad, on the other hand it’s not really much of a defense. You and I both know this would have far different and milder consequences for everyone involved had the list not been made, or if made, not leaked out. As I said in the initial thread, I don’t find Ms. Owens evil, or even particularly unusual in that she likes to suss things out of a private nature with friends, instead I find her unwise and slutty in behavior. And she’s going to pay for it EVEN IF she gets “paid for it”.
    TCF’s defense is  that most girls gossip about their sex lives, at no point does she state that its feminist or empowered or justified to put the guys names out there on the internet.  I agree to a limited extent: most men can forgive some promiscuity in college or HS, and despite girls like Hope, most women aren’t so totally skeeved by sex that they never mention or talk about it to their best friends, whether they be members of Alpha Chi Slut or  Near Virgins On Campus.
    No, what makes Ms Owens so interesting is not only the ripple effects of this brouhaha on both her life and that of the boys; it’s also that she represents the archetype of the drunken slut. And yet that’s a bit unfair – I’m sure there are other girls who’ve had more sex at Duke, there are also girls who aren’t as selective – she may have had anonymous drunken sex, but hey at least she only did it with Duke athletes – girl had <i> standards</i> lol. So we’ll see what happens.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    I’m surprised somebody married Donna Rice.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule
      Yes, I confess I wondered about Mr. Hughes. It must feel like a bit like being cuckolded before you’ve even been married. I don’t think I’d marry someone who’d had a scandalous past, especially with someone famous. Remarkably, Tracy Clark-Flory didn’t even acknowledge her past.

  • Hope

    Mike, hey now, I’m not “totally skeeved” by sex. I just did not talk about it with female friends, because I never had any close ones that I could trust to talk about sex with, until I got much older (after graduating college). My female friends and I still don’t really talk about it except in very rare occasions. It’s private business.

  • Jon

    I don’t get the whole her face is unattractive. Her face is pretty symmetrical, it looks pretty clear, she has a nice body, nicely groomed hair and eyebrows, nice teeth. Really only thing not going for her is she has somewhat masculine features (though not overtly so).
    I’d totally tap that or even maybe go on a date with her. I’d say solid 7 – 8, especially considering the growing weight problems with girls nowadays. Definitely would not do that now, but if I was unaware of her past, yeah.

  • clarence

    Jon:
    This is where the “good girls” and the smart girls shine.
    Yeah, I’d “tap” Karen, if I thought I could do so without getting a disease, or better yet could ASSURE I wouldn’t get a disease. Well, ok if I wasn’t going out with the Swedish Girl. Gotta add that in there – I’m not a cheater. She looks very fertile to me right now, though I know her bad lifestyle is going to really hurt not only her heart but her reproductive organs within a few years, and they probably have already prematurely aged a bit. The only other reason not to tap her is that she wouldn’t make good mother material. Maybe if I got custody of the kid.
    It’s not just jealousy and personal preferences that are causing some people to diss her looks (saying she’s below a six is wrong in my opinion) – I think the instinct from some is to punish her for being so “in your face” with her sexual empowerment/stupidity. (In this case they are the same thing) Jealousy is probably a thing some females have going on. However Karen did it, she truly did get some Alpha guys – some of whom have looks and presumed charm from their pictures- to give her attention that a more homely or less forward girl might not have gotten.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However Karen did it, she truly did get some Alpha guys – some of whom have looks and presumed charm from their pictures- to give her attention that a more homely or less forward girl might not have gotten.

      Aren’t guys here always saying that most alphas will gladly have sex with a 6, especially on a slow night? KO didn’t have a single guy ask to see her again, according to her report. She would just pop up at a party, and head right for a private spot. The Duke Chronicle (student newspaper) ran an editorial pronouncing her a 6.2 on the Duke scale, for whatever that’s worth. I think she’s fine – clearly attractive enough that no one had to feel ashamed the next day. Personally, I think she’s pretty manly looking – I’d guess a real alpha dad. The fact that her dad’s the town preacher somewhere doesn’t surprise me, on a whole host of levels.

  • Passer_By

    I think you’re being a little hard on her looks – perhaps your personal feelings about her are clouding your vision.  She’s about a 7. 

    I think what bothers me about this whole thing is the unabashed hypocrisy of the sex pos feminist crowd here.   To Ms. Owen’s credit, she owns her experiences.  But these same women who are celebrating what she’s done, and encouraging her to celebrate it, would be the first to help her scream “RAPE” if Ms. Owen had been the type to wake up and regret her experiences the next day.  Let’s see.  Can’t remember everything?  Check.  Sore down below? Check.  Doesn’t feel good about it the next day (perhaps deciding the guy was not sufficiently high status after she sobered up)?  RAPE!!!!!  At a minimum, a lot of these guys probably could have been kicked out of Duke under that new policy if she had been the sufficiently flighty or vindictive to file a complaint.   Of course, she would be viewed by the tribunal as an innocent victim even though men and women presumably are no different whatsoever beyond their genitals.

    So, because Ms. Owen takes full responsibility for her actions, I will not condemn her.   I certainly don’t think she intended this to get out and embarrass anybody.  Condemning or shaming someone like her only encourages others to make false rape claims.  But, knowing what we know, I would never want to be in a committed relationship with her, nor would I want that for my sons.  Of course, I’d still hit it in a heartbeat if I were single. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think you’re being a little hard on her looks – perhaps your personal feelings about her are clouding your vision.

      If this is directed at me, it’s possible that I’m way off base, but not because I dislike her. As the mother of a 21 year old woman, I actually feel terrible for her – if she were my daughter I would be devastated because of what I believe this says about how she feels about herself.
      .
      I think women are poor judges of what men find attractive. As you know, we find men attractive on a variety of traits, including looks. Other characteristics can have a huge impact on how we view a guy. It’s the same when we look at women – an attractive woman who we dislike becomes “haggard”. This explains why women set you up with their friends, assuring you that she is “attractive, with a nice personality” and when you arrive you can’t believe it – she’s a 4. For us, a nice personality bumps a woman up two points!

  • clarence

    I gotta back what Dragnet said:
    This is why the process of naming those accused of sexual improprieties and rapes without also naming the accusers or better yet naming NO ONE has to stop.
    The Duke case is as close as you can get short of God telling you so to prove a false accusation. The boys were freaking declared actually innocent by the AG of the state, District Attorney goes to jail for corruption and wrongful prosecution, there’s currently a multi million dollar lawsuit, the accuser is a train-wreck who recently got in more trouble with the law – and what does the station say?  The same station, I bet that’s never named Crystal Gail Mangum? It says there was a “scandal” and that “charges were dropped”, this one throw a way little line seeming to intimate that Something Happened and that Some Duke Athlete Got Away With Something.
    THIS is what can  happen to your reputation even when you did nothing out of the ordinary and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This makes what Karen did all the more stupid in comparison.

  • clarence

    Passer_By:
    Those are very good points. Remember what drove the Hofstra false accuser?
    SHAME. She didn’t presumably want to break up with boyfriend when he found out of her infidelity and she really didn’t want to be known as “Gang Bang Slut”.
    An honest person like Karen deserves some respect, even if we think her choices are ill-advised and stupid. The reason I don’t think she’d make “Good mother material” isn’t because she’s dishonest, and not even because of her “number” per-se: it’s her narcissistic very superficial standards and the stupid behavior she engaged in prior to having sex (drunken sexual hookups) and when she sent out such private information to 3 friends and counted on it always staying with them. Not smart, girl. But I’d hang out with her, I’d hire h er for certain types of positions (nothing very public relations), and unlike the Hofstra accuser I don’t wish her a jail term, a miserable life, or a barren womb.

  • dragnet

    “I think what bothers me about this whole thing is the unabashed hypocrisy of the sex pos feminist crowd here.   To Ms. Owen’s credit, she owns her experiences.  But these same women who are celebrating what she’s done, and encouraging her to celebrate it, would be the first to help her scream “RAPE” if Ms. Owen had been the type to wake up and regret her experiences the next day. Let’s see.  Can’t remember everything?  Check.  Sore down below? Check.  Doesn’t feel good about it the next day (perhaps deciding the guy was not sufficiently high status after she sobered up)?  RAPE!!!!!  At a minimum, a lot of these guys probably could have been kicked out of Duke under that new policy if she had been the sufficiently flighty or vindictive to file a complaint.   Of course, she would be viewed by the tribunal as an innocent victim even though men and women presumably are no different whatsoever beyond their genitals.”

    This is a really good point. If Karen Owen had even had a hint of buyers’ remorse, these same people would be claiming she’d been raped during the course of the exact same experiences they are right now calling “empowering”. This is exactly the type of shit that pisses guys off and sharpens the enmity between the sexes. Until this point is addressed by the sex-pos crowd, what little credibility they had is shot to hell.

  • dragnet

    “The reason I don’t think she’d make “Good mother material” isn’t because she’s dishonest, and not even because of her “number” per-se: it’s her narcissistic very superficial standards and the stupid behavior she engaged in prior to having sex (drunken sexual hookups) and when she sent out such private information to 3 friends and counted on it always staying with them.”

    I take your point, but in my experience women with a high(er) number are more likely to exhibit narcissism, materialism, superficiality, etc. Denying commitment to promiscuous women is a pretty effective—although not foolproof—way of weeding out women with those character defects.

  • Hope

    My husband hates the false rape accusation flinging women with a passion, too. I think this is something women will just not be able to understand personally, because we are not in danger of having our entire lives screwed over in an instant by some selfish lie told by a girl who can and will get away with it.

    I think he had some girls start gossip in school that basically amounted to “don’t date him,” and subsequently all the girls avoided him and lowered his status and reputation. He might still have a certain bitterness toward the social butterfly, gossipy kind of girl from those days.

  • Chili

    The solution to false rape accusations is don’t sleep with people whose characters you don’t know.

  • dragnet

    “The solution to false rape accusations is don’t sleep with people whose characters you don’t know.”

     
    That’s a brilliant solution—just brilliant. Nevermind the fact that the Duke lacrosse guys didn’t actually sleep with anybody.

  • Vincent Ignatius

    She was dumb for showing this ppt to her “friends”, but ultimately, they are to blame for spreading it to the world.
     
    Karen is a slut, big deal.  She’s not some evil monster.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Karen is a slut, big deal. She’s not some evil monster.

      True. She didn’t harm anyone, at least not intentionally. From what I read, civil suits may be brought on invasion of privacy grounds, and that may hinge on whether her expectation that the material would stay private was reasonable. The part I really don’t get is this: Who writes a 42 pg. paper, which must have taken as many hours as a real honors thesis, only to share it with three friends who already know the story? She used her real name, which seems like proof that she didn’t intend for it to get out. And yet, she has got an evangelical preacher father…..It’s also just hard to believe that she never felt any emotional connection with these guys, or hoped for something more. Her account seems willfully ignorant of the way she was perceived by the lax players openly trying to pass her around.
      .
      She is not some evil monster. Nor is she a sex positive feminist. She is a young woman who had a series of adventures that she inexplicably believes will make good stories for the grandkids. That’s just so disturbing. I grew up begging my grandfather to repeat his stories about the Brooklyn Dodgers and feature films that cost a nickel.

  • Passer_By

    “The solution to false rape accusations is don’t sleep with people whose characters you don’t know.”

    That may be sage advice, but it’s obviously not a solution, and society has an obligation not to willy nilly turn the guns of the state loose on innocent men.

  • dragnet

    “That may be sage advice…”

     
    I’m sorry, but it’s not even that. It’s buck-passing, thoughtless and sophomoric. An attempt to saddle men with all of the responsibility while letting women and the system off scot-free.
     
    Let’s call it what it is: misandry.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet, @Passer By, @Chili
      The best way to prevent a false rape accusation is to go slow. The truth is that morning after regrets generally occur after impulsive sex. Also, many schools have policies that allow a third party to trigger an investigation, so a woman sharing regrets with her roommate can mean hell for the guy. I know that guys feel that if a woman consents to sex they’re not violating anyone’s rights, but most states make consent impossible if the woman is inebriated. I advise any young man to refrain from intercourse with any woman who is not thinking 100% clearly. Yes Means Yes – while sober – is the only insurance against false rape claims, and even that is not foolproof.

  • Passer_By

    “I’m sorry, but it’s not even that. It’s buck-passing, thoughtless and sophomoric . . .”

    Well, what she is setting you up for is a sort of “turn about it fair play” type argument whereby she will equate her statement to statements made by a lot of men that “women should take more steps to protect themselves from rape”.  Of course, the analogy is silly, given that false rape involves the machinations of the state, and even the definition of rape itself.   To be analogous, you’d almost have to have the police holding down the rape victim for the rapist.   But if you react too indignantly, you set yourself up for it.  And it probably is a good idea not to sleep with complete strangers, and I would give my son that advice, because you never know what sort of pyscho your getting in with.  But you can never really know their character with any certainty – people get married and end up being very surprised by their wife’s  or husband’s “character”.  I could just as easily say to her “the solution to all domestic violence against women is simply for women not to move in with or marry men of poor character.”  In fact, I could even more easily say that, since it’s not the state that is inflicting the violence in that case.

  • Brendan

    She’s a solid 6, and a 7 if dolled up I would guess.  Which makes her the textbook type of woman that Roissy writes about — the “striver” in the 5-6 range who can swing sex with male 8s and 9s, but can’t get one to commit to being a BF or husband.  With this woman, one wonders whether she was ever trying to snag one of them, or whether it was all just, for lack of a better word, “sportfucking” for her as it was for the guys.  My guess is that there is at least some aspect of the former involved in what she was doing, at times, because the whole project reeks of bitterness and anger at the guys — it reeks of a kind of revenge, or a kind of trying to express power over these guys to get back at them for having exercised their own sexual power over her.
     
    I still maintain that if a guy had written a similar thing with names and photos and body part ratings and so on, there would have been hell to pay in terms of what he actually wrote, and how it reflects the continued societal misogyny and hatred of women, and so on.  Yet no-one is saying anything of the sort about what she actually wrote.  That’s quite revealing of both the general level of misandry that is present in our culture together with the general level of obliviousness about that fact.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I still maintain that if a guy had written a similar thing with names and photos and body part ratings and so on, there would have been hell to pay in terms of what he actually wrote, and how it reflects the continued societal misogyny and hatred of women, and so on.

      I think there is a real difference that we may attribute to biology. KO is a “freak” in the sense that women who “sportfuck” in this manner, with no admitted emotional involvement whatsoever, are extremely rare. She’s almost an anthropological curiosity. If a man published such a paper, it would be treated as the worst sort of “boys will be boys” offense, because it’s so cliched it’s predictable. Denice Ann Evans had guys describing on camera their “Fantasy Sex League” charts, with points allotted for various sex acts, including non-consensual ones. We’re horrified, but the fact is, that’s typical of fraternities. So we’ve got a very low level of tolerance for that from men, while it’s an oddity from women, and therefore fascinating.

  • dragnet

    @ Passer_By
    All fair points. The truth is that I am a little indignant regarding her foolishness.
    Chili’s game was obvious, but sometimes a guy gets tired of playing it. Rather than debate with any degree of intellectual honesty, instead she tries to “[set] you up” for something. Eventually it can wear guy down—I just shouldn’t have to explain why the system has an obligation to protect innocent and falsely accused men. This simply should not require an explanation. And if you’ve ever read any of Chili’s other comments, the terms “thoughtless” and “sophomoric” are certainly applicable in some instances.
    But, yes—my response probably was a little over-the-top. And come to think of it, I’ve also been a bit intemperate at times over at Obsidian’s blog this week. The holidays can’t come soon enough.

  • clarence

    Brendan:
    I’m not entirely convinced this was all done out of revenge. If you’ve read the thing- and I have – some of the guys come across really well – one of them if I recall still has her respect, at least two others she pines for -esp Mr. No 1 Blonde Boy on her list. In short there seems to be some pages where she’s recalling fond memories, others where she’s making fun of herself even if she is also dissing the poor guy she had sex with, and a few pages worth of bitter attacks , though even then livened with some humor. See Mr Bottom Dweller for someone she not only disses but was obviously a bit peeved at.
    I think this thing was a mixture of bragging, recalling fond memories, and a bit of revenge for a few of those on the bottom of her list, esp. the last guy Mr. Surfer. So it was a mixture. I don’t get an idea of her right now as being a jaded man-hating harpy, though she might be a bit jaded about sex. :(

  • clarence

    dragnet:
    I assume you, like I, have been following the Social Pathologists site and his series about sluts and infidelity.
    While I think there is some truth to his “bonding” hypothesis as to why promiscuous people -esp women, men not being as affected – have trouble in LTR’s and marriages, I’m reasonably sure that the type of “hookups” they have also matter.  I think if you look at most of the promiscuous people who fail to have good long term relationships, you will find that at least at one point, and possibly continuously in their lives they have used alchohol or other drugs as their main social lubricants. In short, I’m saying I have a hypothesis that thoughtful/responsible “sluts” might be considerably less risky than those like Karen, though there is not yet a study that I’ve found or seen on that site to support this hypothesis.

  • dragnet

    @ Clarence
    No, I’ve never heard of that blog. Can you provide a link?
    I definitely agree that there is a difference in quality/character between thoughtful/responsible sluts and their not-so highly evolved sisters. But the infidelity risk is elevated even with the thoughtful ones. And the reason this is a problem is because of the cuckoldry and the high-cost of divorce on men. If exiting a marriage was easier and less costly for men, the slutty women of either category might not be as bad a LTR option as they are now.

  • GT

    The following points have been covered but I want to see if I understand it:
    1. So basically all this young woman did was, ultimately, advertise that she is not marriage material.
    2. If she works anywhere and an enemy does a Google then her presentation will be transmitted to her boss, and the boss’s boss and coworkers.
    3. The sex positive feminists that hold her as some sort of heroine basically are just paying lip service to her because, lets face it, this young woman is going to suffer any future consequences of her actions all by her lonesome and I am willing to bet big money that NONE of the sex positive crowd is going to step up and give her any real help or support when she finds that she can’t find a serious relationship (if she wants one) or if she is having trouble finding or keeping employment because of her tarnished reputation.
    Am I missing anything?

  • ExNewYorker

    @Clarence,
    Whether or not the “bonding” hypthesis is true or not, the cause of the effect isn’t that critical, since to determine the true cause would be quite a challenge.  However,  the correlation from those numbers is much stronger than I would have imagined, and that’s the main fact of importance.  And yes, there may be some secondary effect on the “type of hookups”, but all in all, it’s an incredibly powerful (and scary) analysis.  To those of us who were looking for a LTR, it indicated that our “reluctance” toward women with larger “numbers” wasn’t a “typical patriarchal cis-normative entitled privilege”, but something based on some deeper truth.
    .
    It’s another piece of useful info, as is how a woman handles money, or her family background, that makes weeding out those who would be LTR bad bets a little easier.

  • clarence

    dragnet:
    First, I before the links, I must state something. The original post was a study by the Heritage Foundation, which, as you know is a biased conservative think tank. The data they used , however, was from the Fed Gov’s National Survey of Family Growth, and neither I, nor anyone who looked at the raw data found where they had misused it. Thus the first three posts kinda suss out this data and this particular study. Then he goes on to find other studies that say essentially the same thing or cover slightly different, but related topics.
    First of three or four posts:
    http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/08/defining-slut.html
    First of three:
    http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/infidelity-part-1.html
    Also of interest:
    http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/2002-male-and-female-statistical-data.html
     
     
     

  • clarence

    ExNewYorker:
    Unless you think there exists a sizeable portion of virgin women outside of Utah and Amish PA,  using this data would basically have you reject as ltr or marriage material any girl with over ONE partner before you. No matter how old, no matter what circumstances. And if you do that, you might as well take a lifetime Vow of No Marriage, because your advice, if given to the average guy will not leave him very many women of which to choose from. Certainly not one per man.
    Now I’m fully aware of marriage 2.0 and the only reason I’m probably going to get married is that I want a kid or two, and I think thats the best arrangement for a kid. I’ll shame no one for refusing to marry in this climate esp since many guys never want a kid at all, and even more guys aren’t interested in kids during their 20s/early 30’s when they are hooking up. But going solely by the numbers gives one no hope. Yeah I have a girl and by sheer luck before I ever read this stuff, earlier this year she happens to be one who is only slightly more than half my age, and I’m only her second sexual partner. Could I count on this again?
    So we look at the numbers. We find, despite rather extreme pre-marital partner counts that nonetheless some marriages and LTR’s survive and thrive. Why? That’s all I am asking. If one can find additional behaviors that would enable one to parse out the really bad bets from the decent bets, doesn’t it make sense to do so? Once again, if every man makes a blanket ban on marrying women with more than one or two pre-marriage sexual partners, probably 90 percent or more men will never have a chance to get married even if they want to knowing the risks. Fact is, I think one can “rescue” some of the promiscuous girls by being able to separate them from their even more dangerous slutty sisters.

  • ExNewYorker

    @dragnet
    If exiting a marriage was easier and less costly for men
    I agree.  This day and age, it’s extremely important, if a guy wants to get married, to really make sure there are no issues that elevate the divorce risk.   And yes, nothing is fulproof.  I could get hit by lightning today, but that doesn’t mean I should  run uphill with a golf club in the middle of a thunderstorm.
    .
    It be more likely that men will start sitting marriage out.  Heck, you can get most of the benefits of it without needing the actual paper, so there better be a good reason to take that final step (off the cliff) :-)
     

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    I think it’s a sad day when people posit that Karen F. Owen is worthy of respect because she had groupie sex with a baker’s dozen of athletes but didn’t accuse them of raping her after the fact.   That’s an extremely passive form of “owning” one’s behavior, and also reveals what a threat men find false rape accusations in general.  Women need to be aware of this.  It’s innocent until proven guilty, not “Lock him up, he’s got a penis.  If he didn’t do it, he probably wanted to.”
    I imagine Karen’s experience is fairly representative for a certain strata of college women; she’s not an outlier.  She obviously thinks she’s fairly clever and has no problem objectifying men.  Brendan has a real point.  If one of the men on her list wrote a similar list about women, we would all be outraged at how he treated his lovers.  Women have been protesting objectification for decades.  We should view turnaround not as fair play, but as more bad behavior.  If it’s bad when a man does it, it’s bad when a woman does it, period.
    I know my opinion on the attractiveness of other woman doesn’t count, me being a woman, but I think she’s attractive.  Certainly not ugly.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Clarence,
    I don’t think we’re disagreeing here.  I wasn’t advising to ” reject as ltr or marriage material any girl with over ONE partner before you”, but commenting on how significant the results were.  As I mentioned, it’s a piece of information, like the others I mentioned, and it’s up to the individual to weigh it with any other information available.  For myself, it served as a pretty quick metric to weed out the larger numbers.  For the smaller number cases,  it mainly served as to underscore that there needed to be other factors to override that.

  • clarence

    GT, you have it right.

  • Passer_By

    “I think it’s a sad day when people posit that Karen F. Owen is worthy of respect because she had groupie sex with a baker’s dozen of athletes but didn’t accuse them of raping her after the fact.   That’s an extremely passive form of “owning” one’s behavior . . .”

    That’s fine, but it sort of strays from my point.  Whether or not she deserves “respect”, my point was that those who are cheering this as “empowering” or whatever, would be the first to help her claim rape on the same facts if she had regretted the encounter the next day.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    I agree with you, Passer By – all that passed out drunk sex which was fully and obviously her choice would easily be fodder for a false rape accusation.  The laws do not make any sort of allowance for the fact that some women apparently want to get wasted and have really aggressive sex with near strangers.  In fact, they seek it out over and over again.

  • Hope

    “If one can find additional behaviors that would enable one to parse out the really bad bets from the decent bets, doesn ’t it make sense to do so?”

    It certainly does make sense. I think this is a pretty good list of what a life partner should be like:

    http://micah.sparacio.org/10/04/2010/the-perfect-woman/

    It’s a good list for women to strive toward. A lot of the list is also applicable to men. I’d probably add a few things related to problem-solving, grace under crisis, fiscal responsibility, and communication.

    Alas, I eat with my mouth open.

  • clarence

    grerp:
    Being honest about behavior that could get one labeled slutty is always something to be praised in women.
    A little shame from time to time is a good, not a bad thing.  But there can be too much shaming, and when that happens one is more likely to try to defend oneself by sacrificing someone else. And thus, Danielle Ndonye, the Hofstra accuser.
    Here’s the thing: on this blog there is a recognition that some behavior is bad either for onesself or for society, and sometimes both. Drunken hookups, for instance, are mostly a stupid bad thing.  Mostly we agree on what this behavior is, even if we disagree on the margins of it – is “slut” a pure numbers thing, or does behavior besides number fit into it?- and we come from  many different positions as to WHY this or that particular behavior might be wrong.  You and Brendan/Nova have religious reasons to go with practical ones, I have primarily practical ones and a philosophical bent not to deny what the data of the world tell me, others have more personal reasons such as physical or mental revulsion at certain aspects or behaviors of the dominant sexual culture.
    One thing we generally agree on is that some “slut” and /or “cad” shaming would probably be a good thing. However, I think there also has to be a way for forgiveness to occur in terms of ones secular sexual reputation, otherwise we do indeed trade off incentives for stupid foolish drunken behavior and replace them instead with behaviorial incentives for prudish, hypocritical ,  and defensive behavior instead. And this will only encourage more false accusations as those who feel that a single indiscretion has branded them with some Scarlett Letter for Life (honestly, short of conviction of rape or murder or fraud I don’t think what one does prior to age 25 should define one the rest of ones life) decide its better to take the chance on sacrificing someone elses life than to admit to the indescretions of their own.
    Now maybe Karen Owen will one day do something wonderful for the world. Or perhaps she’ll end up with a needle stuck in her arm, found dead on the street, at 29. I certainly don’t mind criticising her or telling her she’s been stupid and irresponsible, but I think she deserves a chance to rehabilitate herself.

  • clarence

    Hope:
    That’s not a bad list, but I’d add a few things to it.
    For instance, how does she get along with the men in her life, her family?
    Same for him. How does he get along with women? His family?
    A little jealousy is good, expecting you to drop every male friend /female friend you ever had before the marriage is not reasonable.
    Money habits. For women especially, how does she spend it and how much does she spend? Does she save?
    Useful household skills? – this could apply to either spouse. My girl can’t cook much (hey, she’s Swedish and they are pretty dang liberal over there in terms of gender relations), but she likes cooking for others, has a self depracating sense of humor about it, and is willing to learn.
    For me as a guy: Does she like kids? Does she intend to have any or is she content to say something like ” yeah, I’m thinking I’ll have them when I’m 35 or so”.
    Does she put family or a potential career first? Him – the same question.
    Life goals?
    Honesty. Does he or she feel repulsed by examples of dishonesty or cruelty?
    Well, things like that.   I especially think how your potential partner gets along with members of your sex is an important one.

  • Maura

    @clarence
    I’m sure plenty of people make stupid mistake when young which they make up for later in life. However, this is so public. Her reputation is toast and whether that is fair to her or not is somehwat beside the point. Even if she cures cancer, she is going to have one heck of a time getting people to not associate her negatively with this scandal.

  • clarence

    Maura:
    Good point, and of course I’m assuming she can get over not only the stupid behavior, but grow up ethically/morally in her view of the world which seems to be very superficial. And yeah, any man or woman who views their partners as purely objects, needs to grow a heart or hurry up and age out of the market.
    If she does, though, I really hope one day she can sort of laugh at this as a “young, dumb and slutty” moment,  along with a sigh that even though it could have, it didn’t ruin her life.
     

  • no more mr nice guy

    Donna Rice ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Rice ) is an hypocrite.  She became an anti-porn activist with her husband in the 1990s.  And she’s not alone, there are women in the porn industry became born-again Christian and are now in war against the porn industry and anything they judge “immoral”, for example Crissy Moran ( http://milowent.blogspot.com/2010/06/crissy-moran-wikipedia-article.html ).  For these reasons, I’m not worried about the future of Karen Owen, I’m sure in 25 years she will be a born-again Christian, a Creationist and maybe will be a member of the Senate or the Congress. :)

  • clarence

    No More Mr NiceGuy:
    You’re right of course. This society is messed up about sex on so many levels it’s pathetic.
    A. On the one hand we have students at many of the dorms , frats and sororities of our colleges  with an alcohol fueled hook up culture. Many of our High Schools are little better, though there doesn’t exist the extensive private spots for anywhere near as much hanky panky.
    B. On the other, if Janet Jackson’s breast is exposed on the SuperBowl Halftime show for maybe a second – if that- it’s a Major Scandal, whereas people in most other countries are like “huh? What’s the problem?”
    C. We have all sorts of laws that allow the supposedly “limited” Federal and state governments immense control over our private lives. It wasn’t but 40 years ago that inter-racial marriages were outlawed,  and birth control strictly regulated. Sort of like they regulate prescription cold medications now, ironically. Until about 6 or 7 years ago there were still criminal statutes on the books for consensual sodomy and I think Texas still prosecuted someone recently for selling sex toys. Rape has been redefined to the extent that in my state, Maryland, a teenage boy was convicted of rape for not pulling out fast enough after consent was withdrawn during intercourse that started out consensually.  And then there’s our state by state schizophrenic  and contradictory laws over pornography and what the age of consent is. The False Rape Society recently did an extensive post on how the laws have been redefined over the past 30 years in order to help obtain convictions and also to incentivize women to come forward.  The post is here:
    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2010/09/underreporting-canard.html
    Read it. You will be amazed at the amount of changes.
    Yet despite this, we are constantly told that 9/10 rapes or more are unreported, and that conviction rates are somewhat south of ten percent.
    In short, we are a sexually hysterical society.  While I appreciate people’s religious and philosophical beliefs are very important to them, I really wish they’d not try to impose them on me. That merely gives those among us who like to control others and play off prejudices more power, and ultimately doesn’t help society in the end. I’m glad this blog is more about education and a little shaming when needed rather than proscriptions for the Sexually Perfect society.

  • PuffsPlus

    Donna Rice Hughes looks pretty good for her age, except for the bleached out hair. Wonder if she’s had work done? But she doesn’t come across as highly articulate.

  • http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com white and nerdy

    She didn’t harm anyone

    Yes she did.  I shouldn’t have to ask this question but what about the men?  They have a right to privacy.  I’m sure the guys that banged her who have small penises don’t appreciate that such details about their bodies are now public knowledge.  I’m not a lawyer but I’m sure that a lawyer could come up a solid reason to successfully sue her except that she probably has no money and none of the guys with small penises that banged her want it broadcasted even more that they have small penises.
    If she’s not evil then she’s insane and belongs in a mental institution.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      W&N – well, I said she didn’t harm anyone intentionally. To sue her, I think one would need to prove malicious intent of some kind. She was cruel about sizing up the men the way she did – even delighting in demeaning them, but on the face of it, it looks like she never intended to humiliate them publicly. Clearly, she has no money – I bet the guys’ families will ultimately choose to let this blow over rather than dredge up more publicity.

  • Rum

    “most states make consent impossible if the woman is inebriated”
    So, if a guy is inebriated and a women touches him sexually she is set up for a charge of  felony sexual assault? If not, why not?
    I am starting to hate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, if a guy is inebriated and a women touches him sexually she is set up for a charge of felony sexual assault? If not, why not?

      Good question. Actually, I think the laws are gender neutral. But rape of men is rare. And there have obviously been cases, mostly teachers, where women have been prosecuted for raping men. The state laws surrounding rape and consent are rarely enforced, but they’re on the books, so anything is possible.

  • clarence

    Susan:
    Don’t overplay your hand. KO is not a “freak” in being some kind of one in a million girl. A good ten to 15 percent of all women are probably KO’s in my opinion – they are just often better at hiding it and /or a bit more lucky in that their indescretions don’t make the internet.
    As for “lists” and things that supposedly only guys do -balderdash. Men are more likely to do that, but women  (and I’ve run into plenty of examples before) also keep their lists and have their gossip. They just don’t do it as blatantly, and when they do – well, they don’t have to apologize for systematically oppressing the other sex like the men who do these types of stunts do.
    And Susan, about false accusations:
    Your advice is good but it really only applies to one night stands and Hookups. Which is what you have on the brain, I suppose ;)
    I’d still recommend surreptiously recording at least some of the proceedings and/or getting the attention of a mutual friend prior to going off together. At least then you’d have established the initial contact was consensual.
    And of course for FA’s in terms of LTR’s -well, your advice is useless. My advice is not to 100 percent ever trust anyone if you are a guy. That’s the system we live under. I know you’ll find it sad, but if I marry, I’ll take a few random recordings from time to time over the years -hide them, and keep them at least until the kids grow up.  They’ll be none of this “He forced me to do this for y ears and years but I told no one because I was scared” , B.S, should I find myself betrayed :(

  • clarence

    Rum:
    It’s kind of fair if the state makes it so that there is a defense if both parties were inebriated.
    Sad thing is, many states don’t. If the woman is drunk, you are drunk, you both have consensual sex, she regrets it the morning after – well, I hope you like dropping soap.

  • Passer_By

    “She is a young woman who had a series of adventures that she inexplicably believes will make good stories for the grandkids.”
    I’m 99% sure she was being facetious and self deprecating with that comment.
    Also, as to gender neutral rape laws – they may written in a gender neutral manner, but the real world application will never be.   And perhaps it shouldn’t be, since actual trauma of males from female sexual aggression is so rare and odd that it’s probably not worth the law enforcement resources to worry about it (other than as a way of proving a point to women about absurd sexual assault laws).

  • clarence

    Passer_By:
    You remind me of this guy called Arpargus. He’s an MRA who is not popular with others because he advocates for a Right To Rape. He views it as affirmative action…well never mind. If you want to find out more of his views on THAT topic , I suggest googling Elvind Berge.  I just had to let you know why he is unpopular. Anyway, he views sex as a female resource due to several anthropoligical studies and arguments, and hence he does not view it as possible for a female to rape a male.
    Of course despite knowing he has reasons -logical in some ways reasons- for these beliefs they disgust me.
    I find your downplaying of female on male rape equally disgusting.  It’s not all statuatory between a 15 year old his 20 year old teacher or babysitter or something like that, where one could wonder if the punishment for the crime should be some life ending type and the victim often feels anything but.  And it’s certainly not always harmless, what with 12 year old boys and passed out drunk unconscious men being made to pay child support:
    http://www.childsupportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html
    Now here’s some other links:
    http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/
    Good general purpose blog for male survivors of sexual abuse though he gives sympathy to ALL survivors of sexual abuse, unlike some feminist blogs I could think of.
    http://www.jameslandrith.com/
    James Landrith,  a spokesperson for RAINN and a male victim of a female rapist
    In short, I hope you will look into these things and revise your opinions just a bit. It’s not that rare -esp in a society like ours where it’s hardly conceptualized as possible – and it can often be devastating esp given that males raped by other males or females don’t often get the support network that women and girls do.
     

  • A Must Read!
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @A Must Read!
      Thanks for that link – I do find Clarisse Thorn an extremely interested and fair-minded writer, without any (or at least much) of the usual defensive feminist stridency.

  • Passer_By

    Gosh, and here I thought we were getting along swimmingly.  I’m nothing like arpagus. That’s pretty funny by the way –  I’ve read his stuff and think he’s a psycho.   But I think you’ve drunk the MRA kool-aid a bit too much.
    When I make the statement I made above, I’m not talking about adults with children.  That’s obviously a different scenario.  Also,  males raped by other males is another matter entirely. It would just be pretty odd for an adult male to be traumatized by, for example, a drunken encounter where he was taken advantage of.   He might not like it, but he’d get over it pretty quickly.  I’m not saying it can’t happen – it’s just so rare that I wouldn’t call it a societal wide problem.  It may be a big problem for those who experience it, but it’s rare.   You can find that disgusting if you want, but men and women are wired differently and have different interests to protect (similarly, a lot of women just can’t seem to grasp the concept of being traumatized by cuckholdry, since it’s not a threat to them).  You need to understand that the female aversion of rape is deeply wired as a way of protecting her limited reproductive opportunities.  the male does not face the same threat.  It may be traumatizing to be forced to do something you’d rather not (especially if you’re being forced to take another guy’s penis is you rectum), but it’s not a threat to your reproductive success, so evolution would not have given you the same deep revulsion (cuckholdry, on the other hand, would be another matter).  And there’s also the issue that not very many women can (or would) physically force a man to maintain an erection and have sex.
    Obviously, holding a minor (or a man unconscious at the time) accountable for child support to an adult woman who violated him has little to do with the trauma of rape – it’s simply an injustice.

  • clarence

    Passer_By:
    I’m hardly in denial about HBD and sexual differentiation in traits, I simply perhaps don’t push it as far as you do in this instance.
    And rapes often bring STD’s so your argument that a males reproductive success isn’t impaired is incorrect. It is more accurate to state that his reproductive success may or may not be impaired by such an assault.
    I never argued that female on male rape is anywhere near the problem of male on female rape in terms of numbers though ironically males in prison might be -this is contested- the most likely to be raped of all, of course in that case nearly entirely by other males. (though the occasional female guard on male prisoner has been noted to happen now and then) However, that is not the point. The point is it probably happens quite a bit more than you think – esp the sex when he’s passed out type – and when it does happen many victims don’t know what to do and certainly get no help. Obviously being physically overpowered by anyone and raped -but esp. a woman – probably is extremely traumatizing for a man, but once again,  many people will say he got “lucky” esp if the attacker is conventionally attractive. Just like at least some “sports injuries” are really injuries due to female on male domestic violence and hidden due to shame, we don’t know how many men would hesitate to report sexual assaults by women. What we do know is unlike females ‘who don’t come forward’ no one in power is actively pressing to get men to tell their stories of abuse. And attitudes like yours do not help.

  • rick

    No matter the outcome of Karen Owens’ life, she will always be know as the poster child/archetype for slutty college girls.
    Open up a dictionary fifty years from now, and her picture will be next to the word “slut”.

  • Matt T

    He might not like it, but he’d get over it pretty quickly.

    Statements like this disgust me. I have friends who’ve been drugged and then wake up with a condom in their ass. I also have heard of fatties colluding with other men to get men drunk to lower their standards. Male-on-male rape is a reality, and though often joked about, it’s very hurtful, especially when you factor in all the nasty gossip that’s going to happen about it (gossip that doesn’t happen about male-on-female rape since the topic is taboo).

    But yeah, you’re right that women don’t understand how cuckoldry hurts. If you’re a man, you’ve basically been completely shafted in terms of the evolution game, dedicated to raising a kid that wasn’t even yours. And now you haven’t passed on your genes, so nature will soon eradicate you from existence. This is why men despise single moms in the dating market: by engaging in a relationship with them, they are getting cuckolded. Unless I already had a kid, I would rather be celibate than marry a single mother.

    Going back to the topic, Karen Owen is a 7 if she bothers doing herself up, at least going by the picture of her in the brown hair. She probably slept with people in the less prestigious baseball and soccer teams rather than the more prestigious football and basketball teams since she didn’t have the raw hotness to compete with other women for the football guys. Still, though, I wouldn’t consider her slutty (13 men in 3 years is not out of the ordinary), just very forward and remarkably myopic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Still, though, I wouldn’t consider her slutty (13 men in 3 years is not out of the ordinary), just very forward and remarkably myopic.

      First, I believe the thesis covers just a two year period. Second, she doesn’t say anywhere that these are the only men at Duke she had sex with. It’s entirely possible, even likely that there were many guys who made the cut for sex but not the thesis. Some of her escapades were separated by months, and this woman was out trolling for hookups every weekend.
      .
      By the way, I’ve heard that the lax players were regulars at the parties of several frats. Many of the sorority girls steer clear of them, as they are known for pumping and dumping girls. One told me that they were “top dogs on campus”, yes, but that also means “biggest douchebags on campus.” Going with one of them is considered hitting rock bottom for a Duke girl, even though they are hot. It’s like wearing a sandwich board that says SLAMPIECE.
      .
      Interestingly, this sorority girl told me that no women she knows can remember this Karen Owen. They remember her blonde friend Candace, but have no recollection of KO at Wednesday Shooters or any parties. None of them even recognize her photo. It’s odd because the haunts she mentions in the thesis are all popular with Greeks. I continue to wonder if the thesis is entirely true.

  • http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/ slumlord.

    I personally don’t understand why there is such a fuss concerning KO and her “lay reports”. Agreed, that naming her partners and divulging their implicitly private details on a public forum may constitute and invasion of privacy but it hardly warrant the reaction that it has generated. Lots of people have written “kiss and tell” biographies without generating this much comment.
    With regard to her looks she is nothing special, she’s bangable  and I’d rank her a 6 to 7. She does have that hard and cheap look about her, one too many cigarettes and too much alcohol exposure. I hate to say it, but she looks like she’s been passed around and is beginning to get that “cougar” look.
    I think she genuinely intended for her “thesis” to be locally distributed and clearly did not think about the matter much when she posted it to her “friends”. As many commentators have noted, once something is online and in the possession of others it essentially is the public domain. It looks like she didn’t anticipate this occurrence, she lacked good judgment. Just another stupid girl.
    @Clarence.
    I to have been thinking about slut rehabilitation. I mean, like you, I don’t want to condemn a girl for a few youthful indiscretions. Everyone’s been stupid at some point in their time but the more I think about this the more uncomfortable I become. Marriage, like brain surgery is a very high stakes game, especially when kids are involved. Who are you going to choose to operate on your brain, the “boring” methodical and conservative neurosurgeon with a very low death rate or the “exciting” impulsive neurosurgeon who get the occasional spectacular case right but ends up killing the majority of his patients. It’s that sort of dilemma. When it comes to the crunch, who are you going to choose?
    When researching the “slut data”, one of the consistent predictors –across all studies–of sexual promiscuity, divorce, infidelity etc was being from a broken home. This is an interesting finding since it seems to imply that the example of the parents is transmissible to the habits of the child. As a responsible parent, I would want to pick a partner that has the least risk of divorce for the sake of my children, if not myself.
    Whilst partner count is not the sole metric by which to judge a partner, its correlation with infidelity and divorce is so high, that it’s a biggie. Since the stakes are so high, I’d recommend a very, very conservative approach. Lots of women have slept their way past the point of no return.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I personally don’t understand why there is such a fuss concerning KO and her “lay reports”.

      Unfortunately for Karen Owen, I think she’s perceived as toxic – the feminists are not backing her up. She is not one of them, she’s just another Girl Gone Wild. They’re either not commenting or shouting “TMI!” Several sites have accused her of misandry. Duke is mortified, the boys’ families are ticked off. There is not one individual taking her side, and she is in hiding. So it’s a media free-for-all, with internet safety experts getting calls from CNN, and social media darlings talking about reality in the digital age. The media has descended on Duke’s campus in exactly the way they did before, though just for a day or two this time.
      .
      The bottom line is that everyone is horrified that a woman would have sex in this way. It’s not the number, it’s the clinical detail, the emotion-less affect, the hint of self-loathing. It’s the size worship, and the desire to be roughed up during sex. And all from a woman who is clearly smart and not unattractive. What would drive an anthro major at Duke University to behave this way? To write this thesis? No one knows the answer. We hope that she’s an outlier, a tragic case of a woman with terribly low self-esteem. But what if she’s typical of a certain kind of college woman? She’s unusual in that she wrote about it, but we all know she’s not unusual in her choices. I think most people find that alarming. It’s no longer the abstract notion of “hookup culture.” It’s Karen Owen, a bright woman with a bright future, acting like something lower than a prostitute.

  • Matt T

    Sorry, by “soccer” I meant “lacrosse”, dunno what I was thinking. I do remember that the video says the thesis documented hookups from sophomore to senior year, which could have been between 2-3 years.
    I agree that she could have had sex with other men, but excluded them to try to justify to herself that she is accustomed to only sleeping with high-status men.
    There’s a chance that the sorority girls you talked to were merely rationalizing why the lacrosse players in question weren’t interested in them.  After all, being known as a player on campus helps immeasurably in attracting women, since it serves as ample evidence that women seem to like you. And we all know that women like men who other women like (“pre-selection” in PUA words).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt T
      Pre-selection is powerful, but these lacrosse guys are viewed in much the same way the town trollop would have been viewed 100 years ago. If you’re going to go there, you don’t want anyone to know. It’s perceived as a desperate act for a woman to go with one of these guys – they all have gf’s, and they’re just scavenging for strays. Many women would probably go for it, except that they stand to get shamed by other women as having stooped very low.
      .
      There is such a thing as too much social proof. These guys are considered “hot but gross.” Lacrosse players at Duke routinely hook up with “lacrosstitutes” – women who devote all of their energy to sexually satisfying these guys. I’m sure once they graduate, they’ll find a whole new source of poon, but they’re definitely damaged goods by their junior year in college.

  • Tony8080

    I just read the whole dossier- it took quite a while. One certainly cannot fault her eye for detail. It certainly deflates the ‘size doesnt matter’ camp. I actually feel for her.  She just got unlucky- her friends had no right to forward the email. Everyone was talking at the pub last night said she was fairly chaste compared to many girls. And ALL girls talk about the dirty details after the fact. My wife says when she read it – it reminded her of many a late night laugh fest with her college friends. As a bloke I found it a bit intimidating, but as my wife said, a proper relationship is not just sex- the sport fuck thing is a college phase.
    Gotta feel for the small guys though- I hope they are on suicide watch- I guess they will have to leave college- or move state? Trouble is – this has gone global- I dont know what I would do in their shoes- and what about their families? I shudder to think about the impact on them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Gotta feel for the small guys though- I hope they are on suicide watch- I guess they will have to leave college- or move state?

      I think she said one of them is on the Red Sox now. Sucks for him. I think half of these guys already left Duke, and the other half are probably keeping their heads down. Apparently, none of them has been seen on campus or out since this went down.

  • Passer_By

    @Matt T
    Statements like this disgust me. I have friends who’ve been drugged and then wake up with a condom in their ass.
    Huh?  I was pretty clear that I wasn’t talking about males raping other males (passed out or otherwise).  I was basically talking about a situation where a guy gets way too drunk and ends up with a woman he’d rather not have done.  He gets over it pretty quickly.
    Also, you have “friends” (i.e., more than one friend) who have mysteriously woken up that way? Seriously?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Rachel Ryan has a new essay about the Duke scandal at Frum Forum that pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter:

      And yet, behind Owen’s façade of insensitivity and indifference, there is a girl who has allowed her self-esteem to be so pulled apart that she was left with no other recourse than to feebly attempt to make light of the situation. Karen’s feigned unemotional attachment was completely debunked on pages 34 and 35 of her “thesis,” in which she rated Subject #12 as being “the best she ever had,” emphasizing above all things, the “eye contact.” To put it simply, in between the seemingly detached talk about the “amazing sex,” Karen was most taken by the all-too-human desire to look someone in the eye and see that – maybe, just maybe – they care.

      The fact of the matter is girls cannot distance themselves as effectively from sex and hooking up as boys can. In attempting to do so, we may become periodically numb and enjoy certain casual indulgences, but at the end of the day, it ultimately hurts us.

      http://www.frumforum.com/sex-on-campus-no-one-ends-up-on-top-in-duke-hookup-scene

  • The Deuce

    @Susan:

    First, I believe the thesis covers just a two year period. Second, she doesn’t say anywhere that these are the only men at Duke she had sex with. It’s entirely possible, even likely that there were many guys who made the cut for sex but not the thesis.

    In fact, in her first encounter of her repwhoret, she alludes to having spent the preceding year in the fraternal order of sperm banks.

    The bottom line is that everyone is horrified that a woman would have sex in this way. It’s not the number, it’s the clinical detail, the emotion-less affect, the hint of self-loathing. It’s the size worship, and the desire to be roughed up during sex. And all from a woman who is clearly smart and not unattractive.

    You know what’s really striking, now that I think about it? The glaring omission of information about her own orgasms or lack thereof! You’d think, amidst all the gleeful clucking about penile length and width, and staying power, and getting roughed up and bruised, and being too sore to walk the next day, that she’d be able to find some space to mention whether or not she had an orgasm, and if so how many. But no, apparently having one’s cervix relocated is its own reward in her world. Orgasm almost seems to have been beside the point. The one and only time I’m aware of where she explicitly mentions having one was with “subject #12,” who she said made sure that she came first. That’s the only guy she says that about, and I doubt anyone tried to make her cum second.

    I think she said one of them is on the Red Sox now.

    When you said that, I looked up who it was, and he is. I don’t really feel too sorry for these guys given that they helped to dig their own graves, except perhaps for him. You know the entire team has to know about it now, what with the news coming out after he was already on it. She tore him down without mercy. The guy is probably weighing his options between trying to get traded ASAP and attempting murder-suicide.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deuce
      Did you make up the word repwhoret? That’s hilarious.
      That’s pretty interesting that she doesn’t talk about her own orgasms – I confess I can’t bring myself to go back and reread her stuff. I do recall that #12 was the guy who made her feel like she was having relationship sex, even though she knew she was not. So we’re back to the orgasm chasm – and the realization that women are behaving this way for male validation. When she runs into a hookup weeks later and he shows some jealousy as she flirts with other guys, she responds the way other girls would respond when a guy tells them he wants to be exclusive – as if this is some meaningful intimacy.
      I agree with you about the guy on the Red Sox – and the way she used the metaphor of being disappointed on Christmas morning was especially cruel. It seems like quite a few people – guys for the most part – say that she did nothing wrong because she never intended for this to go viral. Others – mostly women – have said that this is the typical kind of conversation women share after their sexual encounters. Any way you cut it, she’s judging men on superficial qualities, i.e. not character, and she doesn’t make character a priority for herself either. In other words, she’s a cad.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Umm, No. I’m sorry to have to say this, but the most obvious conclusion is that Ms. Owen is likely just not so ‘special’ here. Just one of many plying the same trades. No one actually reading her outre ‘Thesis’ would recognize someone with or ‘suffering from’ low self esteem. No, not really. It’s the wrong analysis here. Completely. She does not suffer from a lack of self esteem, but a confidently high regard that her skills as a ‘seductress’ or a highly sought after ‘body/babe/booty call’.
     
    Sure she likes it when one of her ‘marks/subjects’ looks at her and seems to be connecting with her more than usual. Simply because that’s a.) Unusual over all for the experience and b.) unusual for the type of booty call she’s stalking. She’s likely well aware of that too. But over all? She does not seem to lack confidence in her performance, and well knows that if it’s ‘good & plenty’ she’ll have plenty of takers & ‘call backs’. Or at least repeat performances. Someone lacking in self esteem might not be able to pull that off at all, especially with her off hand comments on the compliments she’s received on her skill set.
     
    In other words? Just because she’s not yet got to the ‘caring sex’ stage yet is no reason to suspect that she’s got low self esteem. Sometimes it takes yes, some years to either ‘reconnect’ with this experience or to actually discover it in a caring partner of your choice. That would be in some years hence when you’re actively searching for your Beta to settle down with!
     
    But reading along with many others here, literally nothing about the experiences she describes seems all too out of the ordinary for a certain type of outgoing & very determined college gal. She knew what she wanted & set about finding ways to get that goal accomplished. Why anyone might want to see that as a manifestation of ‘low self esteem’ is beyond me. Might it be part of a larger complex of some sort of ‘psychopathology’? Perhaps. But if so? It’s a riotously fairly common one, and has been for a very long time.
     
    She knows what she wants & she gets it. Has it & consumes & enjoys it. Again & again. Again, how is this even comprehensible as low self esteem?   I truly think there’s an age graded barrier to understanding her underlying motivations here. She’s not ‘the victim’ here, and does not perceive herself as such. She’s following a self actualization program that actually requires some accomplishment, tasks well done & a collection of ‘works finished/completed/worked upon’. That’s what her very proud thesis was about. Braggadocio more than anything else! Really. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VJ
      I agree that low self-esteem didn’t drive KO’s behavior. That would have shown up as a tendency to be overly critical of herself in her writing, not narcissistic. It would also probably lead to behaviors that we might view as desperate as she realizes none of the men care for her. In her case, she’s seemingly oblivious to this fact, or perhaps genuinely doesn’t care.
      .
      The reason I said that she demonstrates a hint of self-loathing is because she willingly endures humiliations without appearing to process them as such. For example, one of the guys refused to even see her again to return her earrings. He placed them outside where she could scoop them up. In other words, he made it clear that after sex she repulsed him. And yet she demonstrates no shame or even sense of rejection in response to this.
      .
      I also think this document shows more than an intention to gossip with the girls. It’s not benign – it’s vengeance. It seems to me that she’s objectifying men after years of making herself nothing but a disposable object herself. But perhaps you’re right, and I give her too much credit.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Further thoughts.
     
    Susan says: “By the way, I’ve heard that the lax players were regulars at the parties of several frats. Many of the sorority girls steer clear of them, as they are known for pumping and dumping girls. One told me that they were “top dogs on campus”, yes, but that also means “biggest douchebags on campus.” Going with one of them is considered hitting rock bottom for a Duke girl, even though they are hot. It’s like wearing a sandwich board that says SLAMPIECE.”
     
    Fine, but she’s also DHV to herself & her pals by stalking & ‘seducing’ so many of these ‘top dogs’  too. Little ole her managed to do this on the ‘down low’ evidently too. (See below). And no, they didn’t ‘pump & dump’ her, she used them for her ‘research’ & self gratification, wrote them up and unilaterally dismissed those she found wanting. Some did come back for more though. So no, it’s never really ‘rock bottom’ to essentially bag a fine, buff athletic specimen of youth. Not just yet anywhere we’ve been aware of! It’s all about goals & aims. She got hers. She was not after being the ‘steady’ or the misses of the house/dorm room of  any of them. Or the Mrs for that matter!
     
    Susan said: “Interestingly, this sorority girl told me that no women she knows can remember this Karen Owen. They remember her blonde friend Candace, but have no recollection of KO at Wednesday Shooters or any parties. None of them even recognize her photo. It’s odd because the haunts she mentions in the thesis are all popular with Greeks. I continue to wonder if the thesis is entirely true”.
     
    And herein lies a tale. There are literally dozens of such gals stalking the varsity teams of any sport on almost any large college campus. Always were, always will be. Again what part of peak perfection in bodily strength & athletic ability did anyone find unattractive? The Greeks or Romans? No Ma’am! Not now, not ever. So why are the basics so hard to understand here?! Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/ slumlord.

    @Susan

    The bottom line is that everyone is horrified that a woman would have sex in this way. It’s not the number, it’s the clinical detail, the emotion-less affect, the hint of self-loathing. It’s the size worship, and the desire to be roughed up during sex. And all from a woman who is clearly smart and not unattractive.

    There is not self loathing in her thesis Susan. She is a woman who is bragging about banging the hottest guys in the scene.  I think the whole self loathing angle is a way to avoid dealing with the unspoken elephant in the room. Namely, that Roissy’s view of women is congruent with reality. Female sexuality is directed towards alpha males and given the appropriate stimulus, women can behave in as brutishly carnal way as any man, I would say even more so. Stripped of any societal restraint, in fact encouraged, a woman will zero in to the highest status and physically hottest man in the room. Mosey along over to Roissy’s combox and have a read about some men’s experiences with women and their utter surprise at how their women get turned on when totally dominated and aggressively screwed. KO is the physical embodiment of the dark Id of female sexuality. She is what happens when women are free of all restraint and encouraged  told to follow their desires.  She was giving a “lay report” to her  high social/academic status friends, none of whom would have shamed her for sleeping around. She was proud of her achievement. Here is America’s future.
    The, “I was drunk” excuse is lip service these women give to the last shreds of morality. Lying to themselves that it was the drink, and not them, which drove them into the beds of the jocks. It allows them to satisfy the desire whilst absolving themselves of the responsibility. The alcohol is facilitating them to act in a way in which they want to act. Her slutting around was not an aberration, but the actions of a woman who could realise her desires. I agree that most women are not wired to sleep with heaps of men, but I imagine that if given the chance to preserve their reputations, many would jump at the chance to enter the alpha harem, if at least for a little while.
    The low self esteem argument is just bullshit. Why didn’t she sleep with the entire advanced calculus class instead? Why is it that no matter what the girl’s problem, the jock gets the sex?
    I think that it’s high time that we dispelled the notion that women are “sugar and spice and all things nice” and realise that intrinsic to female nature is a dark carnality that seeks satisfaction. Sure, that carnality can be modified by culture and societal norms but when these are dispensed with, female nature reverts to its most primitive.
    It isn’t pretty.
     
     
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @slumlord
      I don’t disagree with anything you say re female sexuality – in fact, I think you’ve got it exactly right. Of course, I would argue that not all women are Karen Owens, and that some are just more restrained than others.
      Perhaps I’m just projecting (actually, I almost certainly am), but here’s why I detect an undercurrent of self-loathing in her thesis:
      1. Women know instinctively that it’s always the female that gets f*cked. Always. The question is what she gets in return. I don’t see what KO gained from these encounters. She was not known on campus, other than among these athletes, so the boon to her social status was under the radar. Much of the sex was mediocre, and, as Deuce has pointed out – almost no orgasms. Nearly all of her sexcapades arose from opportunity – a guy would see her out and pick her up. No one appears to have given her a moment’s thought otherwise. In other words, she seems to have bestowed sexual favors on men and extracted zero in return.
      2. She needs to sleep with handsome men. On one occasion, she is surprised and a bit distressed to learn that she has had sex with a guy who isn’t cute. In other words, she doesn’t believe that she is attractive. She sets out to prove it every single weekend by seducing a top dog.
      3. The power point must have taken many hours to produce. Not only that, she appears to have been taking and saving notes during the two year period. She recounts her exploits in excruciating detail. This was no laugh over hangover brunch with the girls. This was a serious effort on KO’s part – to what end? No one has been able to answer that question.
      4. She liked the sex best where the guy made eye contact and spent time admiring her body. Yes, she revels in having exchanged a high five during a BJ in the library stairwell, but eye contact during sex made her vulnerable. She really wants to be loved, just like anyone else.
      5. Her father is a small town preacher. What are the odds that this behavior is not connected to her upbringing in some way?

  • Höllenhund

    Great comment, slumlord!

  • Jess

    I’m a Catholic girl and to my amazement this story has had more media attention than the Popes UK visit! Times they are a changing!
    To VJ: I agree with you, shes an average girl who is doing what millions of college girls are doing. The only difference is girls normally gossip over coffee- she made the mistake of using email. She has a fairly normal take on sexual preference/experience- as to her size preference, recent research suggests all women have this preference as a biological imperative. Her taking a pop at the less endowed of her conquests is no different to men tutting at chunky girls or the less pretty. Again, remeber she didnt mean this to become public.
    At Deuce: you make a classic error when analysing female sexual satisfaction. The pursuit of an orgasm is everything to men whe it isnt to women. Women can have mind blowing sex without an orgasm

  • Jess

    …… continued………….. but equally some can have an orgasm but have an overall poor experience. Lovemaking can last 30-60 mins with foreplay etc but an orgasm lasts 10-15 seconds. I take it you can self pleasure in minutes? Do you prefer that to full sex? For Karen, sex with a smaller unit isnt satisfying, its just a statement of fact, and is for the college girl, juicy gossip of the highest order. Not exactly edifying but no criminal act. It is rather sad for the men though, I hope they are getting some formof counselling- its going to be a tough few years for them. Whichever public sites posted this should be prosecuted by the state and not the individuals imo.

  • http://grerp.blogspot.com grerp

    @MattT

    “But yeah, you’re right that women don’t understand how cuckoldry hurts. If you’re a man, you’ve basically been completely shafted in terms of the evolution game, dedicated to raising a kid that wasn’t even yours. And now you haven’t passed on your genes, so nature will soon eradicate you from existence. This is why men despise single moms in the dating market: by engaging in a relationship with them, they are getting cuckolded. Unless I already had a kid, I would rather be celibate than marry a single mother.”

    I would agree that being cuckolded is terrible and that no one should be tricked into raising and supporting another man’s child.  I would support mandatory DNA testing at birth even, in the current sexual-social environment.  However, as an adoptive parent, I would say there are worse hells than raising someone else’s biological child.  I worked terribly hard to do just that, in fact, and don’t regret it at all. I think one of the most important parts about family is ownership – the right to be in someone else’s life and, if that someone else is a child, the right to influence and teach him your values.  Take away that ownership, and you see an immediate decline in willingness to invest – which is one of the reasons stepparent/stepchild relationships are often less successful, the reason why foster parents require payment and adoptive parents do not, and why noncustodial parents often drift away from their kids after a divorce.
    As far as being eradicated from existence genetically, I know I will be, and it doesn’t keep me up at night.  I did want – wanted it desperately, in fact – to have a baby/babies, but I don’t believe that the world will rise or sink because my genes weren’t passed on.  There is nothing in my gene bank that is so extraordinary as to merit mourning its passing.

  • djb

    Actually, I find her detailed explanation of her sexual preferences to be extremely honest.  I don’t know how many women lie to their men on matters sexual.  This does really put to rest the “size doesn’t matter” issue.  Also, note the propensity for “violent” sex, as she puts it.  Most men labor under the misapprehension that they should be soft just because a women is generally smaller than a man.  For this, she is doing men in general a great service.  I do think she is probably liable for invasion of privacy with respect to the names, though.  She is certainly not LTR material, so I would only criticize her to the extent she tries to hook a man into one when she feels the clock ticking.  I don’t see her as wanting a LTR anyway, so no harm no foul.  Many a man may want her as a casual thing, but her demanding “size” requirements and her propensity to reveal her dissatisfaction would certainly scare off all but the most well-endowed.  Wow, I can’t meet her requirements so she would really have intimidated me (no amount of oral sex is going to make up for it, men, so don’t even try).  In a way, then, her dissertation will serve to only dissuade those who can’t satisfy her anyway.  I think its a good thing.  I just wish other women would be as honest.  Now, if we can only get women to stop thinking their entitled to this kind of lifestyle as well as having a family.  Its one or the other.  Choose wisely.

  • GudEnuf

    Sometimes I don’t know if Penelope Trunk is trolling.

    http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2010/10/09/snapshot-of-women-at-work-karen-owens-powerpoint/#more-5621

    “Owen’s slides capture the shift in women’s empowerment, which is happening at the workplace and having the ripple effect of empowering women in sex. Owen’s slides make me excited about the new generation of women and how much they take their own power for granted. I’m excited to see what they will do with it.”

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Susan said;  “I agree that low self-esteem didn’t drive KO’s behavior. That would have shown up as a tendency to be overly critical of herself in her writing, not narcissistic. It would also probably lead to behaviors that we might view as desperate as she realizes none of the men care for her. In her case, she’s seemingly oblivious to this fact, or perhaps genuinely doesn’t care.

    The reason I said that she demonstrates a hint of self-loathing is because she willingly endures humiliations without appearing to process them as such”
     
    My take: I’m thinking she does not now, nor then regard much of what she did or their reactions to it as too or very ‘humiliating’ at all. Mostly pleasantly desired. Again, perhaps more narcissistic than anything else, which is getting ever more common, especially in the younger age sets. I’m really not interested nor do we have enough information for psychoanalysis here. I agree with Jess & other college aged women that this behavior is neither unusual nor actually uncommon in many venues. (And KO certainly seemed mostly satisfied with most of the results from her labors too, orgasms noted or counted regardless) . But overall, we’ve been seeing an upwelling of this ethos for years, even in the work place, as noted by Penelope Trunk. She (PT) regards the entire episode as an exercise in empowerment, which is more than likely exactly how it was originally intended.
     
    And there’s really no more ‘vengeance’ in there than many other young woman who might be overheard on campus on Monday morning describing her exploits from the prior weekend to her friends. The only thing unusual here was that she actually wrote it down & it got passed around virally on the net. That’s it. And she bothered to take some time (not Hours) to graph the most subjective aspects of her experience. Likely to give it that ‘faux academic’ style of academic veneer. And Contrary to popular belief, she might have been a decent student, but she’s in no sense of the word a ‘good’ or even a credible descriptive writer here. Passable for a letter home to momma perhaps, or to her GF’s, for which this was intended. But as a stand alone work? It’s sub-par for real writers, and was probably dashed off without much thought otherwise. In other-words? SSDD. Not ‘revolutionary’. Not very worrisome as such. Indicative of current ongoing cultural trends, as noted by others. That’s it. Not much earth shattering here going on. Now if she had cratered a Presidential campaign? Maybe then she’d get to be the sought after media darling she might one day come to aspire to, right? Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @GudEnuf

    I think that’s the worst Penelope Trunk post I’ve ever read – she really missed the boat here, IMO. Her commenters appear to feel the same way, with negative comments outpacing positive ones by a wide margin.

  • http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/ slumlord.

    @Susan
    1)In other words, she seems to have bestowed sexual favors on men and extracted zero in return.
    She may have enjoyed the sex. For want of a better expression, she may be “wired” more like a man and just wanted physical intimacy.
    2)She needs to sleep with handsome men. On one occasion, she is surprised and a bit distressed to learn that she has had sex with a guy who isn’t cute.
    A drink too far. I think more along the line that she needed a lay and had her beer goggles on. I don’t think she was seeking validation through sex–admittedly there are instances of this in real life–she slept with some of the hottest guys on campus. Her lay report sounds more like bragging to me, more like, ” Girls, I’ve done them all, let me tell you who is the dud and who is the stud”. Putting up a power  point presentation is not hard, almost as hard as a very long blogpost. I don’t think you can draw too much from that fact.
    3) She liked the sex best where the guy made eye contact and spent time admiring her body. Yes, she revels in having exchanged a high five during a BJ in the library stairwell, but eye contact during sex made her vulnerable. She really wants to be loved,
    Both men and women need to be loved, but the lack of love seems to affect women more than men. I don’t think she was looking for love, she was too self absorbed for that, rather she was following the typical life trajectory of your standard college student. Fool around in college, and then after a bit more fooling around, settle down. This was a girl who was in control of her destiny, and like many hot women that I have met, assured that the supply of willing suitors would always be there. Confidence, not insecurity is written all over her “thesis”.  The insecurity starts when her sexual choices become limited.
    The sex was in many instances “average” because she was half inebriated, I mean good sex is not just about the mechanics, it’s about the mental attitude. Impaired mental faculties lead to impaired sex. I must admit though,her lay reports do present a very damming picture of the sexual prowess of your average American college athlete.  To paraphrase Hobbes, the sex life of the average jock groupie seems, ” solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”.
    There are certain things that prostitutes won’t allow because they make the sexual act more intimate, more personal and less business like. Things such as kissing and eye contact. Quite a few prostitutes that I have spoken to have told me how they prefer to do it “doggy style” so that they don’t have to see the face of the man who is using their body, they can imagine him away.
    I suppose the eye contact and the intimacy was the hookup gone wrong. For a brief moment two narcissistic people saw each other as human beings, not as simply a “huge cock to fill me” up or a” pussy into which to dump my load.” For a brief moment she saw what sex was all about, a bonding experience with another human being. For a moment there was a connection, but then their habituated narcissism too took over and each became another notch on each others  bedpost.
     
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @slumlord
      If you are correct in your assessment, then narcissism is even more pronounced than I have believed. It must be more common in the population, and more extreme within individuals. I will say that I don’t think she is a typical college student – she was apparently the sluttiest of the slutty. And at Duke, which is the world’s best party school, that’s saying something.
      .
      I have trouble imagining how a woman with this sexual experience could ever settle down, and the results would surely be disastrous, as your research reflects.

  • Brendan

    Penelope Trunk had to be trolling with that post.  Either that, or she really has gone mad if she thinks that the Karen Owen incident makes men “scared” of 20-something women.  Sheesh.  If it isn’t a troll post, perhaps the other explanation is that she is envious, and wishes she could have stuck it to men like Owen did — which says a lot about Trunk, actually, at the end of the day, and it’s not pretty.
     
    I agree that adoption is a very honorable thing, and have the utmost respect for parents who adopt, and empathy for those who cannot have biological children of their own for whatever reason.  This is different from cuckolding, though, in that it is voluntary.  Cuckolding is forced adoption on the sly — a very different thing, because it’s a fraud.  If a man voluntarily adopts a child he knows to be sired by another man, that is a noble act, and isn’t really like being cuckolded at all.
     
    As for “size matters” and so on … yes, it sure does, but only for *some* women.  Some women are certainly “size queens”.  I would say that, on average, the more promiscuous the woman is the more likely she’s a size queen, because the raw, physical, impersonal aspects of sex are more important to her (as they would be for a promiscuous person who engages in sex as a raw physical act, detached from any other kind of intimacy).  Among women who are less promiscuous or not promiscuous at all, the number of size queens is much smaller.  So, yep, it matters, especially if you’re in the market for carousel-riders who have had 20+ penises inside them and have developed a taste for length or girth or both.  But for other women, the size queen phenomenon is much less commonplace.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I would say that, on average, the more promiscuous the woman is the more likely she’s a size queen, because the raw, physical, impersonal aspects of sex are more important to her (as they would be for a promiscuous person who engages in sex as a raw physical act, detached from any other kind of intimacy).

      Agree 100%. For women who are gathering notches on a bedpost, the bigger the better. It’s just another form of achievement for promiscuous women, and it makes for good gossip. This is mostly cultural, and not very different from porn in that respect. I’ve spent time with promiscuous women who place great emphasis on this aspect, going so far as to text each other during sex with size reports. I’ve also been with women who really just want an emotionally fulfilling relationship, and they display a very different attitude. Recently, I met with a group of about 8 young women. They’re college seniors, and I would say that this particular group has numbers in the 2-5 range. One of them shared a story where every time she and a guy get close, he backs off physically. She couldn’t understand it. Another girl offered the theory that he has a very small penis, and wants to take things slow for that reason. RIght then I asked her if that would be a dealbreaker for her, and she said, “No! OMG, if that is his worry it’s such a waste! I wish I could say something!” I wound up asking the whole group how they would respond if a guy they cared about had a small penis. Of the 8, 6 said they would definitely make it work, and 2 said it would be a dealbreaker. For the 20% of women who orgasm via intercourse, I suppose it’s a real factor, but for the other 80%, I honestly don’t really see what difference it makes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why is Penelope Trunk trolling? She’s often deliberately provocative, but honestly, this post is just flat out wacked. I admit I wondered if her often-touted Asperger’s was a factor. How could she possibly view this as empowerment? If she really feels that way, she ought to offer Karen Owen a job, because she’s in hiding and has no options, as far as I can tell.

  • The Deuce

    @Susan

    Did you make up the word repwhoret? That’s hilarious.

    Yes, I figured there needed to be a funnier way of putting “report” in scare quotes, so I invented one.

    So we’re back to the orgasm chasm – and the realization that women are behaving this way for male validation.

    I’m not sure about that. Yeah, the men were the only ones that came most of the time it seems, but it appears to me that she derived a feeling of validation from (and was turned on by) getting banged by the most rawly dominant men possible – physically and behaviorally. All of the things she sought out in a partner – the physical strength, the big penis, the violent treatment – tie into the aspect of dominance.

    The reason I said that she demonstrates a hint of self-loathing is because she willingly endures humiliations without appearing to process them as such.

    I have to say, I’m skeptical of the self-loathing hypothesis myself. It’s true that, objectively speaking, she’s denigrated herself. She screwed a bunch of guys, has absolutely nothing of merit to show for it, has ruined herself for a real relationship, and didn’t even get paid. This fact will probably hit her sooner or later, but I don’t see much to indicate that she hated herself when she was engaged in this activity, or was trying to punish herself. She seems to have seen getting with these guys as reflecting well on her. I guess you could argue that she was in denial, but that seems to me different from self-loathing.

    It seems to me that she’s objectifying men after years of making herself nothing but a disposable object herself. But perhaps you’re right, and I give her too much credit.

    I’m also skeptical of the revenge hypothesis. If that were the case, you’d think she’d want to punish the guys who she’d had the best time with but who didn’t call her back. On the contrary, I’ll bet they feel like a million bucks after this little episode.

  • Brendan

    Why is Penelope Trunk trolling? She’s often deliberately provocative, but honestly, this post is just flat out wacked. I admit I wondered if her often-touted Asperger’s was a factor. How could she possibly view this as empowerment? If she really feels that way, she ought to offer Karen Owen a job, because she’s in hiding and has no options, as far as I can tell.

    True.  The conclusions she was drawing — about how this reflects on workplace empowerment — were so out-there as to be troubling really.  Maybe she was high or something when she wrote the post?  I dunno.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Getting deep down into the weeds here but:
     
    Susan said “Agree 100%. For women who are gathering notches on a bedpost, the bigger the better. It’s just another form of achievement for promiscuous women, and it makes for good gossip. This is mostly cultural, and not very different from porn in that respect. I’ve spent time with promiscuous women who place great emphasis on this [size]  aspect, going so far as to text each other during sex with size reports. I’ve also been with women who really just want an emotionally fulfilling relationship, and they display a very different attitude”.
     
    My take: OK so what was the breakdown there? About 20% size queens or ones who’d proudly state a decided preference, and perhaps others that might not be as willing to be as forward about it? And BTW? The only real way to come to the conclusion that ‘you do better with someone bigger’? Is to try enough of the vast array of different sizes on an experimental basis. So you’ll gradually discover a preference. Which again is most likely not really in the ‘2-8′ frame either. For an reasonably adequate experimental sample size, you’re still looking at something @ or well beyond a dozen or so subjects. Hence the only passing scientific validity to KO’s observations. So the promiscuous equation works both ways here, both cause & effects.
    And reasons I don’t have a blog? I just don’t know anyone who’d text friends during(!) or immediately after ‘doing some delicious babe’. I’ve never really heard of it happening from friends or acquaintances. And certainly not outside of forgettable drunken (college) hookups. Blogworthy though they may be, they might not be able to pick you up from a line up the next morn either!
     
    And this from Susan’s informants: “One of them shared a story where every time she and a guy get close, he backs off physically. She couldn’t understand it. Another girl offered the theory that he has a very small penis, and wants to take things slow for that reason.”?
    That’s as likely misinformed as it’s unimaginably prejudicial & unconsciously discriminatory. It’s akin to the old ‘well if he does not like me he just might/must be gay then!’ ploy.  No gals, there’s something else more immediate that’s gone wrong or seems too confusing or ambivalent sounding to the guys here. As in missed behavioral cues perhaps. And if it’s happening with Several guys? Why would anyone (gals) stoop to believing that they’re All suffering from inadequacy in that or any other physical department? Again, narcissism & sloppy solipsism everywhere we are to look! So my thoughts are that it might pay to ask. Or try to actually be more openly welcoming of advances or kind & friendly gestures from these guys. Or to consider making some cautious ones yourself too! If they’re not the usual alphas? They’re just not used to hunting the game down and/or carelessly, mindlessly & immediately devouring same as some lacrosse teams might!  And yes, mostly that’s a good thing to be looking for in a hopeful LTR. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • The Deuce

    @Jess

    She has a fairly normal take on sexual preference/experience- as to her size preference, recent research suggests all women have this preference as a biological imperative.

    Oh crap, both you and my spambox agree on this now?! Then again, with my wife, even when fully aroused, not infrequently experiencing discomfort on account of my respectable but not extraordinary 6-and-a-halfer, I’m going to have to call shenanigans on the claim that all women prefer wangs like Guinness cans as a “biological imperative” unless you can cite actual hard evidence.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Dyspareunia much? Yeah, as a ‘biological imperative’ this is about the same level as needing/wanting/desiring a certain viable cup/breast size & shape ‘required’ for ‘good’ coitus. Naturally there’s a huge plastic surgery industry built up upon those cultural expectations, but seriously? Most will just tend to agree that this goes along with the ‘Sport F*cking’ venues & attitudes. And it’s typically as shallow as it is woefully misguided, misinformed & misapplied. But hey, ‘I know what I like & no one can tell me any different’! The loud & raucous rallying cry of all size queens. Sadly, we need to again remind the assembled gals that Good decent men are simply not constructed from their genital members on up. Just as a ‘hard man is good to find’, a Good, big & hard man is even more difficult to find. Single & unattached & interested in you. And likely not all too pleased  to know that you’re yet another one of ‘those’ who thinks that his most impressive asset is something he was simply born with and had little or nothing to do to call it into creation. And even then finding someone of these same magic wand possessors who actually knows what to do with the equipment is another story entirely. But hey, as Rummy might say, at least it’s quantifiable & ‘graph-able’ asset & seen & immediately appreciated by all! Cheers, ‘VJ’
     
    But always, a valuable peek into a certain kind of a female mindset that’s getting more common all the time. Even a random survey of many female bloggers might suggest same. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • The Deuce

    @slumlord

    I to have been thinking about slut rehabilitation. I mean, like you, I don’t want to condemn a girl for a few youthful indiscretions. Everyone’s been stupid at some point in their time but the more I think about this the more uncomfortable I become. Marriage, like brain surgery is a very high stakes game, especially when kids are involved.

    Absolutely. Getting cheated on is not the only consideration in choosing a potential mate. Most especially, you have to think about what kind of effect the person would have on any future children. The biggest risk, as you mentioned, is that divorcees, cheaters, and promiscuous individuals are disproportionately from broken homes themselves, so you have to consider that not only might your potential wife cheat on you, but that in destroying your family she might also ruin your childrens’ chance at finding and keeping happiness in their own families.
    .
    Almost as important, imo, is the lessons and attitudes your potential mate is likely to pass on to the children even if you stay together. One of the most important things parents are tasked with is teaching their kids about sex and relationships. Even if you could somehow get past the repwhoret yourself, would you be comfortable having even an older Karen F Owens who seemed to regret her actions teaching your daughter what sex is all about and what to look for in a partner? Or even worse, God forbid, your son? It *might* turn out okay, but would you want to take that chance?
    .
    So, while it’s entirely appropriate to feel compassion for reformed sluts and to wish them well, and while I think you should avoid condemning them when they’re sorry for their actions, at the same time giving them a second chance shouldn’t be high on the priority list of any man with a modicum of wisdom who wants to have a family.

  • filrabat

    As for the narcissism bit, I agree there are more narcissists, sociopaths, drama queens/kings etc. (i.e. Cluster B Personality Disorders, as defined by the DSM-IV of the American Psychological Association).   It seems that we as a society insist on having “higher standards”, more this, more that, better this, better than, blah blah blah than previous generations. Also, our society and its members are addicted to excitement, probably because of constant media imagery influencing our idea of what a “good life” is.

  • Maura

    @Deuce

    Yeah such women are always a risk. In this particular case, even if she reforms and gains wisdom to pass on to her children, what is to stop them from reading her “thesis?” It is hard to believe it won’t be unearthed for their(and her husband’s) future humiliation. Surely, this would affect their view of sex as well as any good advice she was actually able to come up with.

     Maybe they would think “This is what normal people do before they settle down and rais ekids.”

  • karen

     I have no sympathy for this silly and vapid girl.  It is clear that this “thesis” was just a way to assert how desirable she was.  She included all the popular guys that many other females would have desired themselves.  I’m sure she hooked up with other guys but they apparently weren’t high enough in social status for her to include them in her thesis.  She is no different from other women in college who are quite content to sleep around with the high status males on campus.  I guarantee that if Quasimodo was a star player on the lacrosse team, she would have slept with him too.  This girl seeks validation through the men she sleeps with.  If she can hook up with a guy that other females want, then she is better than other females.  Why else would she make this thesis other than to brag to the world “Hey, look at me, I hooked up with these high status males.”  This is not the type of female that I would have as a friend because I know that she would probably try to sleep with my boyfriend if only to prove that she could get him too.

  • Jess

    @Deuce
    No there really is evidence on this impertivie which has been around for a while
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/06/women-penis-size 
    Forget all that spam crap- recently US courts have banned companies that claim enlargment pills work.
    KO is a certified size queen- she didnt give inches but she clealry met some very large ones- honestly loads of girls dont like that. Its not that it wont fit- its just its uncomfortable and requires lots of lube. Most girls are happy with meduim to medium large even if their fantasies dictate otherwise.
    @Susan- your friends that texted during sex- did they have the phone in their hand while copulating? – how rude!
    @VJ-

  • Jess

    continued
    @ Susan- the recent 2010 Maxim survey of 4000 women said 94% of women said size mattered and 99% said stamina mattered so I’m surprised by your 8 friends responses. Did you mention specifics? that change ones answer a bit I find? Did you not ask about stamina and technique?
    @VJ- you write very well, I agree with a lot of what you write, maybe you should start a blog.
    I think KO is size queen and about a 1/4 of women probably, for whatever reason, have a strong preference for larger units. As VJ says there is probably plenty that wont admit that. For most though, and for me, an adequate girth and length are fine and can be found on precisely 68% of men. 16% are below one standard deviation and 16% are above. So VJ if you are 6.5 you are above the averge of 6.4 so go celebrate.
    I dont agree KO is a bad person, she sent an email to friends knowing they would giggle and enjoy it- she was unlucky there. 13 guys ofreven more in 2 years is not in the slightest bit unusal in this day and age- I do hope she was safe though. And get this; research shows men with big penises have many more paertners than average. Thus are more likely to be diseased. A big one isnt so sexy with a sore on it is it ladies?
    I think a lot of programs in the US and USA should show more TV that features stds in their story lines. It would be reflective of reality and a lot more effective than preaching or posters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deuce, @Tupac, @Jess
      .
      For the record, Jess and I went several rounds a few months ago on the size issue. She was bound and determined to “prove” its importance to many women. It’s obviously important to Jess, which is fine. I too found that many of her links lacked credibility. There is no doubt that our culture rewards large penises. Bigger is better! My point is that women achieve sexual satisfaction in numerous ways, some physiological and others psychological. Penis size makes little difference to physiological pleasure. There are some women who are dissatisfied psychologically – feel shortchanged in fact, when they encounter a small penis. One woman on my penis size post went so far as to state that she would never have children with an under-endowed man, for fear of passing on his genetic abnormality. From my perspective, focusing on penis size is most likely to occur during casual encounters – who reeled in the biggest fish? When women are emotionally invested, or pursuing a longer-term mating strategy, penis size becomes secondary or even irrelevant. (Obviously, this applies to the normal distribution – penises two standard deviations from the mean in either direction may be problematic for different reasons.)

  • The Deuce

    @Jess
    Oh brother. I figured the “research” was going to be something like that. Look, the ability to come up with some evolutionary explanation for why all women may prefer big dicks is not the same thing as evidence that they do. I could just as easily come up with an evolutionary explanation for why they don’t. The fact that they do, and that this preference is genetically hardwired rather than socially conditioned, must first be established independently on empirical grounds before you start speculating on evolutionary explanations for it.
    .
    Second, it’s unlikely that 6.4″ is the average. From what I’ve seen, the average depends on whether guys are allowed to self-report their size. In scientific studies where they aren’t, it seems to come out to 5″-6″.
    .
    Third, Maxim? Really? I just looked it up, and on this same Maxim quiz, only 10% said 11+ inches is too big, and only 56.4% say a criminal record is a dealbreaker. I have to conclude that this was actually a survey of pornstars. Let’s at least take it with a few grains of salt, shall we? Besides which, obviously size and stamina matter at some point. Clearly, if a guy has no penis, or cums just from getting excited, it presents a problem. That’s not what’s at issue here.
    .
    And lastly, the fact that there is no shortage of superficial, un-empathetic, rotten people these days doesn’t make any particular person any less superficial, un-empathetic, or rotten.

  • Tupac Chopra

    Let’s finally put this misunderstanding to bed:

    I would say that, on average, the more promiscuous the woman is the more likely she’s a size queen, because the raw, physical, impersonal aspects of sex are more important to her (as they would be for a promiscuous person who engages in sex as a raw physical act, detached from any other kind of intimacy).

    Agree 100%. For women who are gathering notches on a bedpost, the bigger the better. It’s just another form of achievement for promiscuous women, and it makes for good gossip. This is mostly cultural[…]

    No, not cultural.  The size issue (and the resulting confusion) is based on twobiological facts:

    1) There exists a percentage of women whose brains are “hard wired” like male brains in that their experience of sexuality is primarily predatory and insensate.  Tenderness and intimacy have no place in the sexual act for such women.  Only raw physicality and testosterone-driven libido are factors here.  (We can speculate that these women fall closer to the T side of the testosterone/estrogen continuum).  The primary appeal of sex in such a case is therefore its animalistic nature, and crude markers like penis size are paramount in evaluating the experience. (Nevermind factoids such as “there are nerve endings only in the first 2 inches of the vagina” — many women report enjoying the sheer sensation of being “stretched” and “filled up” on the inside, *apart* from the finer tingles that exist in those two inches of nerve endings).  I’ll estimate this first group of women comprise 20% of the female population.  These women are the TRUE “size queens”

    2) And what of the other women?  Well,  it is true that the remaining group are different from the first…up to a point.  As has been discussed and explicated ad infintum elsewhere, women have a DUAL MATING STRATEGY.   That is, women desire alpha genes AND provider resources.  Since these qualities rarely exist in the same man, women have developed strategies.  As we see here on this blog, many women today slut it up in their prime years hoping to snare a Big Man into commitment, only to later settle for a Good Man (i.e., dutiful beta provider) as they approach 30.  But this duality exists on other levels as well — see for instance the research which shows how womens’ mate preferences change in accordance with their ovulation: at their most fertile, they prefer masculine (alpha) faces while otherwise prefering babyfaced betas. 

     http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/articles/perception.asp

    The upshot of all this is that these “normal” women, while not exactly size-queens in the manner of their high-testosterone sisters in the first group, still like to get dey freak on!  At least during certain times and circumstances, that is. 

    What often happens in these discussions about penis size is that women are equivocating on the terms of the debate — “attraction”, “pleasure”, “satisfaction” — in order to elide over the crucial distinction between their bifurcated needs.  Sex with dominant alphas who roughhouse their women is markedly different from the tender cuddle-wuddling that happens with men who must mate-guard NOT through intimidation of other men, but through constant demonstrations of sexual care, concern, and attentiveness to the women who are seeking a commited provider.

    Another way of looking at it is that the satisfaction which comes from sex with dominant alphas (superior genes) is the satisfaction of deep primordial needs in the female reptilian hindbrain, whereas the satisfaction with beta-provider sex is an expression of the more recently evolved mammalian cortex which values intimacy, i.e., commitment.

    Basically, hot sex for women means: dominance — masculinity — animal physicality, and as such, penis size most assuredly matters.

    The women who protest otherwise are simply prioritizing OTHER things, most notably, their need to secure a commited  provider.  This finds its expression in their appreciation for “romantic gestures” like their boyfriends stopping the car to pick wildflowers on the side of the road on his drive to visit her.  It reassures her that she’s got him hooked, that he’s gonna stick around, and that feels so nice.

    Many men are understandably concerned about the size issue, for something in their gut tells them it matters.  And just as many men have been assured by their women that it “doesn’t matter”, that their lovemaking is great regardless.  And women can truly honestly mean this when they say it.  They are taking the Man As A Whole into account (fidelity, resources, sense of humor, etc.) and not focusing so myopically on something like hot sex.   After all, they may still be dreaming of that engagement ring. And if Nathaniel Schnerdling’s puny thrusts don’t quite hit the spot while he lays on top of her, she can always close her eyes and think of her fling with Brad the jock from her college years…

  • Kurt

    So were these the only guys she had sex with in college?  It’s sad that a reasonably attractive girl would choose to have casual sex with 13 different guys instead of pursuing  a real relationship with any of them or anyone else for that matter.
    It seems as though she went after guys way out of her league and offered sex and they took it.  This girl is totally messed up whether she realizes it or not.  She probably doesn’t even know how to gave good sex herself because she clearly does not know how to bond emotionally with a man (or she does not want to bond emotionally).
    If she ever wants to get married, her “research paper” is going to present a huge roadblock.  Guys are not going to be nearly are forgiving as she would like them to be…

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Karen

    This is not the type of female that I would have as a friend because I know that she would probably try to sleep with my boyfriend if only to prove that she could get him too.

    I had the same thought – this doesn’t strike me as a woman who would get on well with other women. I was actually surprised that the video showed several photos of her with other girls. I think they were more a slut posse than anything else – going to parties together, but all going home with a different guy. Definitely not to be trusted.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    So VJ if you are 6.5 you are above the averge of 6.4 so go celebrate.

    Something tells me that Jess hasn’t figured out what makes VJ tick.

  • http://Ft.com VJ

    It is perhaps a sad testament of our fallen & profoundly ignorant age that the single solitary or most salient measure of of a man’s capacity for either seduction, (which does not actually seem to apply here), or carnal performance is to be so often graded solely on either their penile size or sexual stamina.
     
    Looking to the most notable & storied ‘lovers’ of history & legendary yore in literature & the classics you will likely search in vain of such mindless & soulless size worship such have we witnessed in our supposed advanced modernity. You’ll search in vain of any such mention for the infamous Casanova for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Casanova.
     
     
    But all this is missed by our louche vulgar modernists ever seeking their own greater satisfaction & glory as matter of birthright, legal precedent & cultural artifact. Those cartoonish club like dicks seen in p0rno, so famous as they are ubiquitous in both gay & straight venues? Are likely 1-2+ Std’s away from ‘normal’. In every sense of that assessment. It is truly magnificent as a work of proud artifice, as it is almost entirely useless in producing the goods or works most might come to need or expect for an ‘honest’ profession, or the depth of feeling and loving regard required or sought for some truer or deeper emotional connection.
     
    Perhaps no single artifact of the age is so telling as this singleminded cravenly mindless, soulless focus on this question of size. If women & men are to be truly liberated from their animalistic carnal natures, found desirous wanting & worthy of & for better & higher education and to live lives more usefully productive and fully human? Then this inane and insane monomania has to be recognized for what it is. Tellingly pathological in almost every sense of the word. Women who come to seriously regard such things as vitally important in thoughtful or long term mate selection are definitely better regarded as the vapid simple minded cartoonish receptacles of men’s desires rather intelligent agents & masters of their own destinies.
     
    I think that might answer some questions without having to explain the ångström scale here. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Perhaps no single artifact of the age is so telling as this singleminded cravenly mindless, soulless focus on this question of size. If women & men are to be truly liberated from their animalistic carnal natures, found desirous wanting & worthy of & for better & higher education and to live lives more usefully productive and fully human? Then this inane and insane monomania has to be recognized for what it is. Tellingly pathological in almost every sense of the word. Women who come to seriously regard such things as vitally important in thoughtful or long term mate selection are definitely better regarded as the vapid simple minded cartoonish receptacles of men’s desires rather intelligent agents & masters of their own destinies.

      Well said, VJ. I am quite frankly disgusted by this kind of talk. Soulless is the word for it. This fascination with male genitals must come from porn. It’s true that humans have much larger penises than other mammals, but we’re not talking here about women choosing between a man and an orangutan. Human males have evolved so that nearly all of them have the equipment to get the job done. A woman who can’t be sexually satisfied by her lover should look inward, not down his pants.

  • http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/ slumlord.

    Here are two studies (which I think are scientifically valid) which should settle the matter with regard to penis size.
    Bonus. The Croatian Study actually looks at penile size preference vs sexual experience.
    Croatian Study
    German Study
     
     

  • http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/ slumlord.

    Oops, I got Groningen confused with Gottingen, the German study is actually Dutch.

  • Jess

    @Slumlord- Excellent links. But they seem to contradict each other regarding female opinion. Also the German/Belgium one had an iffy questionaire.
    How can you have a scale of very important, important, unimportant, totally unimportant. The last 2 are identical so you have slanted responses. But still the more data the better. I guess if you are small fly to Belgium! Trouble is I am sure I once found some Belgium research which was very pro size so dont book any tickets yet.
    @Susan- I again would suggest that to claim penis is important purely down to culture false. The evidence is overwhelming. The UCLA survey, Bio Med Survey, Kelleberg Survey, Maxim Survey, the pattern is clear. Vaginal fullness is very important for satisfying intercurse for MOST women. Many women appear not to care too much about length despite cultural pressures. Girth appreciation is purely down to physical senstation. I think you have to give your fellow women some intellecutal credit.
    This is not to say some women put security before sexual pleasure- of course they do. But that is not what is meant when we say ‘size matter’. The issue is limited to sex. However, as I have mentioned previously, eventually, it can rear its head in longer relationships but that discussion is not for here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Vaginal fullness is very important for satisfying intercourse for MOST women.

      The feeling of being filled up is one that women may like or prefer, but it is not related to nerve sensation, and it does NOT contribute to orgasm for at least 80% of women. For the 20% who orgasm from intercourse, the larger the penis the greater the pulling pressure on the clitoral hood, which may contribute to orgasm. This is not a matter of opinion.
      .
      The question “Does size matter?” is not the right question. The question is, “In what ways does size matter?” Possibilities include:
      -bragging rights (dishing with the girls)
      -degree of male swagger (are you perpetually attracted to guys who can’t wait to display?)
      -UTI history (probably correlated to penis size)
      -pain threshold (Deuce is right – 6.5 inches can hurt like hell on the cervix)
      -female anatomy (is the clit less than 1 and 1/8 inch from the vaginal opening? does the woman have a wide vaginal opening?)
      etc. etc.

  • Jess

    @All- I always call ‘hypocrite’ when I hear people slag off people who state size preferences. Its an easy injustice to turn on its head.
    Who amongst has never found another human unattractive based purely on physical traits?
    Deuce/VJ- I get the impression you are straight red blooded males? Care to have relations with my overweight male friend? What if he was nice and kind to you? No? Why not? You dont like men? You dont like overweight people? Whats not a fair comparison? Why is it ridiculous?
    For whatever reason many women cant abide units beyond a certain size. If someone can bury their natural feelings then thats their choice but you know, gay men who play straight for years and years often unwind eventually. I would always advise women to listen to their instincts and genuine desires. If they are not compatible with someone sexually and they are a sexual person then they are about to make a very painful compromise if they settle for that relationship.
    I suppose really its about the battle between your emotional brain and your intellectual one. Trouble is wetness is controlled by the former.(sorry to be crude).
    One thing I do like about Susans blog is she is honest, doesnt pull punches and her readership appear bright. I thought it very poignant when she recounted her story when she met a tall, handsome, popular, charming, muscular rich guy at uni. But when she saw his small size she was so phased she coulndt go through with the sex. So that would be the best possible scenario for a small guy- a girl who is accepting and kind and a guy with gifts that most dont have. Yet still she couldnt do it! Because her emotional brain wouldnt let her. You cannot fault her for that- you may as well shout at her for breathing oxygen. Sorry, this is a long winded way of saying ‘shallowness’ is in the eye of the beholder

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One thing I do like about Susans blog is she is honest, doesnt pull punches and her readership appear bright. I thought it very poignant when she recounted her story when she met a tall, handsome, popular, charming, muscular rich guy at uni. But when she saw his small size she was so phased she coulndt go through with the sex.

      Well…..to be clear: I wasn’t planning to have sex, we had just gotten as far as a little hand play. So I was exploring a bit and, no penis. Just abdomen. I figured it was flaccid and on the other side, or whatever. To make a long story short, I did find it, and it was erect, but it was a micropenis, the size of my pinky. At the time I had only seen a couple of penises in my life, so I was completely unsure what to do. I removed my hand but eased out of the making out part gradually. FWIW, I never told anyone (until this blog) and obviously never shared his personal info. At another reader’s urging I googled him not long ago and found a photo of him online with his wife and daughter. All very good looking. So he got a happy ending.
      .
      I believe stories like mine are extremely rare, and not really germane to a general discussion about female preferences.
      .
      P.S. He wasn’t muscular or rich. He was lean, handsome, and a frat president, very popular. Not that it’s in any way relevant to the story…except to establish that I wanted to fool around with him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      Don’t forget I also turned down a big one. For anyone interested, the details are in this post, my most frequently read:

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/07/17/hookinguprealities/what-women-really-think-about-penis-size/

  • dragnet

    First of all, I would like to thank Jess for standing up for the size-queen crowd—and by extension, guys with big units. Seriously. As much as I like this blog, the alpha-bashing here can get intense. Guys with big dicks can no more control that than guys with small dicks. I really don’t see why it should be so far-fetched that size would matter to some degree. It’s easy to bash alphas/big dicks for the same reasons it’s easy to bash the Yankees, but there are times when it really is just too much.
    PS,
    All this talk of vaginal “fullness” is getting me all riled up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet
      Oh boy, you’ve just given away some extremely titillating info. All of this talk is going to get the women riled up.
      .
      To be fair, I hear what you’re saying but honestly, guys with big dicks don’t really have a problem getting appreciated for them. It’s like all the grief I got when I wrote “Pretty Girls Have it Harder” (which they do in some ways). You cannot imagine the painful comments and emails I’ve received from guys on this issue. I don’t think you’ll find women have anything against large penises – but many “size queens” are narcissists who think “only the biggest and best for me!”

  • Not a 10

    Perhaps no single artifact of the age is so telling as this singleminded cravenly mindless, soulless focus on this question of size.”

    Does that include breast size?  The appeal of large breasts or penises is visual.  Visual stimulation can be a very important factor in sexual attraction or getting turned on.  Or it may not.  It depends on the individual really.

  • Brendan

    The thing is, if so many women need wide girth men to have pleasurable sex, that leaves a large number of men fucked.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The thing is, if so many women need wide girth men to have pleasurable sex, that leaves a large number of men fucked.

      And that makes zero sense from an evo standpoint. The problem with the whole size issue is that women who focus on it often describe what they want without recognizing that it’s unusual. In most cases, extremely unusual. That’s fine – but we’ve seen what happens to women with unrealistic expectations. How many penises are these women going to check out on their way to finding that “monster cock?” What does that say about their choices? Their dating style? Honestly, I hear from men whose girlfriends berate them for having a smaller penis than the ex, or something similar. My advice to any man would be to immediately walk away from a woman who even brings this up. Talk about a marker for future infidelity!

  • The Deuce

    @Susan

    I don’t think you’ll find women have anything against large penises – but many “size queens” are narcissists who think “only the biggest and best for me!”

    I think that’s what rankles about the size queen crowd. I don’t have a problem with women liking/disliking large penises, or big muscles, or height, or blue eyes, or any other number of superficial traits that women have a range of preferences on, just as men do. But this attitude that’s common from the size queens is extremely off-putting.
    Let’s put it this way. A lot of guys like big boobs, but even the guys that are crazy about them rarely if ever exhibit the same degree of nastiness. You’ll hear guys hooting over big ones, but you’ll be hard pressed to find a guy mocking a woman as sexually inadequate, or suggest that she’s not a real woman, on account of her flat chest. They’ll usually just ignore it, because it’s not their personal preference, and let the girl find someone who doesn’t care or prefers little breasts. When guys get together and brag about their exploits, they don’t sexually denigrate women for not meeting their preferred measurements. If a guy *had* written the male equivalent of KO’s F*ck List, it would be very unlikely to contain anything comparable to what KO said about that Red Sox player. No guy is going to release a song with the lyrics “Don’t want no flat chest girl” to gratuitously mock and prey upon the anxieties of small-breasted women, most of whom are perfectly nice individuals who didn’t hurt anybody, by broadcasting his conviction that they’re sexually worthless.
    .
    It’s that sort of behavior and mindset, not just the existence of a preference, that I think VJ best describes as soulless, and it really seems to be specific to the psychology common among the “size queens” (there are plenty of women who dislike large ones because of the discomfort, but they don’t tear down the sexual adequacy of the big guys like the size queens often to do small/medium guys).

  • Tupac Chopra

    I had suspected that Susan, like many women who are eager to find a man to commit, was subtly whitewashing the truth regarding female preference for penis size.  The motive is understandable since it does women no favors to alienate their potential suitors.

    But after reading only a portion of that older thread she linked to, I am no longer suspicous.  I am certain.  She is dissimulating, pure and simple.

    Such a shame, because one of the reasons I have enjoyed Susan’s blog is her ability to really get at the truth of things.

    I won’t bother going into a detailed refutation, but will simply state that when men fret over the size issue it is SOLELY in relation to their SEXUAL PERFORMANCE.  Sexual, and sexual ONLY.  So, when women who are in husband-hunting mode (and no longer seeking “peak sexual experiences”) tell their men that “size doesn’t matter”  while the women are envisioning a future of rich cultural experiences, dinners at fancy restaurants, vacations to exotic places, and comfy snuggling on the couch while watching Netflix movies — it’s cold comfort to the men who simply wanted to be the sexual God of their womens’ lives, nothing more and nothing less. 

    Buffy thinks she’s praising her fiance for all those wonderful qualities that her former jock/badboy flings never had, but it’s really a lie of omission and quite a subtle insult at that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tupac

      I had suspected that Susan, like many women who are eager to find a man to commit, was subtly whitewashing the truth regarding female preference for penis size. The motive is understandable since it does women no favors to alienate their potential suitors.

      But after reading only a portion of that older thread she linked to, I am no longer suspicous. I am certain. She is dissimulating, pure and simple.

      I’m not sure how to respond to this – some thoughts:
      1. I am not eager to find a man to commit. I recently celebrated my 26th anniversary.
      2. I believe that the whole “beta provider” meme is vastly overdone in the manosphere. If anything, size queens are refusing to settle for a man with a small penis regardless of what else he brings to the table. They’d rather go it alone than settle for a man that isn’t hung like a porn star.
      3. How did I dissimulate in the older post?
      4. Why leave a comment “after reading only a portion?”
      5. Research shows that boys fret over size from adolescence on, and that it’s an issue for determining status amongst peers. Men rank one another on this trait from puberty onward.
      6. Not all women care about size. In fact, the studies that were linked to here show that 70-80% say it is unimportant or very unimportant. As I said in the post, the vast majority of penises fall into a mid-range, and I can guarantee you that a woman can’t tell much of a difference between 5.5 and 6.5. The women who say size matters often say they want 8 inches or more!
      7. The vast majority of women who have satisfying sex lives are having them with men of average penis size – BY DEFINITION.

  • Tupac Chopra

    Commenter “Sally” from that other thread lets the truth slip:

    This subject has been done to death on a million blogs. I think the issue revolves around the intrepetation of the question: does size matter?
    It means different things to different people. For a woman it might mean a relationship. For men it might mean the sex act.

    Indeed, for men it IS about the sex act.  The confusion in this debate happens because women are *projecting* their dual mating strategy onto men.  A woman — at different times and circumstances — can be satisfied with either a Provider Beta or an Alpha Lover, even though the experiences those types of men offer women are quite different.

    Men are much more simple — we want beauty and sex.  For some men, variety and quantity matter. OTOH, for the monogamously minded, one loyal and horny wife is enough.  But whatever the case, men are seeking one thing primarily, unlike women with their rather more variegated tastes.  As women project their desire for an array of values onto men, they seem unable to understand why the size issue matters so much to men.

    So if a women can’t feel their partner’s penis they might overlook the issue because of finacial security and affection.

    Translation:  “Sweetie, it’s no big deal that you don’t make feel like a woman — I still enjoy spending your money and snuggling with you on the couch like one of my girlfriends”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So if a women can’t feel their partner’s penis they might overlook the issue because of finacial security and affection.

      I don’t know about Sally’s vagina, but “can’t feel?” Most women can feel a finger being inserted into the vagina. Maybe some women are especially unfortunate in their lack of nerve endings or their own anatomical construction. Though many won’t achieve clitoral orgasm via intercourse, for most women being penetrated feels great, and it doesn’t take a beer can to produce sensation.

  • Mike

    One interesting implication of this “size preference” amongst women or at least a certain subset, is that it is yet just one more reason why a PRACTICAL man really wants to avoid high-partner count women for LTRs.
    Simple math dictates the higher the partner count, the greater the odds that she has had bigger and better.  Couple that with the hypergamous instinct, and at least on some subconscious level at minimum you are being compared to past lovers.  I’m not entirely sure promiscuous men do the same thing.  Sure, maybe they remember the girl who gave the killer BJ, but is it a competition between the current lover and some past lover?  Possibly just one more reason why whether the double standard is “fair”, there are practical reasons guys feel it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One interesting implication of this “size preference” amongst women or at least a certain subset, is that it is yet just one more reason why a PRACTICAL man really wants to avoid high-partner count women for LTRs.

      Agreed, and as I said in another comment, a woman’s critique of your size suggests a sample size large enough to make her an expert. Karen Owens had a clear idea where each of those men fell in the distribution. Women who are not promiscuous will have seen a smaller number of penises, possibly all similar (around the mean). In the post I wrote, I shared that my own experience was that all but two penises were around average. The two that were extreme outliers freaked me out! At that time, I’d only seen a handful (haha). Thankfully, by 25 I was off the market, so for 25 years the only other penises I’ve seen have been on babies and porn stars.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Not a 10, This is why I made the size question bilaterally implicated for all sexes. But for the size queens? It seems to be much more of a serious contention.
     
    And Jess, not to be crude? But when you say this: “Vaginal fullness is very important for satisfying intercurse [sic] for MOST women”. I think of other kinds of fullness that relate to ‘satisfying’ experiences. And wonder no more about our current obesity epidemic. I think it’s way more complicated than that, but that most of the guys Do get it. And even some of the women too. And no we’re not likely talking ‘micro’ problems here despite my jokes. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      satisfying intercurse [sic]

      Hilarious.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Susan says: “Honestly, I hear from men whose girlfriends berate them for having a smaller penis than the ex, or something similar. My advice to any man would be to immediately walk away from a woman who even brings this up. Talk about a marker for future infidelity!”
     
    Yep. All that needs to be said, really. And being around locker rooms most of my life as a child & adult? I can honestly say that discussions, clinical or not, or ‘comparative’ or not of women Anyone is dating or married to are not only exceedingly rare, I literally can count them on one hand. After some 40 years of such ‘experiences’. And almost ALL of them might relate directly to serious ongoing medical conditions and advice for treatment of same. From Docs who also go to the same facility or other clinicians or simply recommendations of & for these. Real men? Even ‘average’ men? Don’t gossip like women. It’s just not done. Not now, not ever. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • Anonymous

    @Susan
     “A woman who can’t be sexually satisfied by her lover should look inward, not down his pants.” So its all the woman’s fault? I used to think that- it really isnt always the case- changing my partner changed my life. Physical compatibility is important if either partner has a good sex drive.
    “This is not a matter of opinion”- it so IS a matter of opinion and many studies suggest that women hold very strong views on this issue. One of your posters linked to Dr Berman ( I think thats her name) who said that in her 30 years of experience found that most couples who had a good sex life reported a larger size. You keep focusing on orgasm and I keep going to get great legths to explain thats not the issue. The issue is enjoying penetration. If its just an orgasm people want then forget the partner and just buy a vibrator! So the womens size and the mens size matter. (unless of course if neither partner particuarly likes intercourse which is more common then people realise). Many women really do say that when lubricated they really cannot feel small units. I remain amazed you find it difficult to accept this.

  • Anonymous

    continued:
    “the only other penises I’ve seen have been on babies and porn stars.”
    what movie was that???
    on a serious note I dont think men or women should watch porn- it just makes everyone concerned upset with the penis and performance in their life. Many women are going to view partners less favourably after seeing the insane things that are on the net. Worth bearing in mind that less than 10% of caucasion men are above 8inch. Totally agree with Susan on most being centred around medium.
    @Tupac:
    Translation:  ”Sweetie, it’s no big deal that you don’t make feel like a woman — I still enjoy spending your money and snuggling with you on the couch like one of my girlfriends”
    I get you but it cuts both ways- ever heard the line ‘never marry a pretty woman’? Better to stick to the homely one who wont be too demanding and will look after the kids?
    Not all marriages are based on lust… in fact…. globally… maybe a minorty are.
    @ The Deuce- you are right- no excuse for people deliberatley abusing others on matters they have control over. Dont worry…Karma will get ‘em.
    @DRagnet
    Thanks for your comments. Actually Im NOT a fan of the big guy. I think they have lots of drawbacks. Truly, truly, most women, in an ideal world, want medium to moderatley large. It feels better- totaly selfish reasons. Fantasy is another matter- please ignore all that. And when we say ‘good girth’ please dont think we mean coke can width- thats not good unless you meet the 20% of the population size queen. Let Karen have her coke cans and all her verbose memories.

  • Jess

    Sorry, in case you hadnt worked it out, I wrote those last 2 posts.
    Jess

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      You are perfectly free to prefer whatever size penis you like. I remain amazed that you have felt the need, over a period of months, to zero in on this issue and argue that large penises are sexier, not just to you, but to most other women as well. I think we’ve covered all the ground twice now, so I won’t debate the matter any further. Some women are intently focused on size, and you are one of those women. May the wind be always at your back, and your vagina filled with a penis you can feel.

  • Sox

    Whether that “fullness” feeling is physically or psychologically derived is irrelevant to most guys, the effect is what matters.  Any guy who’s heard a girl coo or gush over that feeling understands.
    —-
    I too think KO-types are pretty common nowadays.  It’s that same unbridled, sexually boastful attitude that is prevalent in the 5-7 looks range.  BTW, it’s definitely a stretch to say she’s a 7, even dolled up.  Body’s a 7 maybe, face is not.

  • http://www.mankinirevolution.com Melanie

    Your Karen Owen post is concerning to me.  How can you claim to be a supporter of, and positive voice for women, yet publish statements about these two women that serve no purpose other than to insult and judge them.  How would you feel if people critiqued your physical appearance?  Do you think you would be judged as more or less attractive than the woman you insult?  Shifting focus from the issue at hand to a woman’s appearance is one of the most common techniques used to insure that women are not treated as individuals worthy of the same degree of respect as men are treated with.  It happens in politics and news media frequently.  Apparently insulting Owen wasn’t enough.  You had to get a jab in at Donna Rice as well.  Her affair happened many years ago.  Since that time, she has married and has devoted her life to a worthy cause.  She was sexually assaulted as a young woman and admits that she responded to her turmoil by engaging in negative behaviors as a young adult.  Should a woman be disrespected and insulted for her entire life for a mistake she made years ago?  What good does that do anyone?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Melanie
      Karen Owen rated these men based on the appearance of their genitals. She scored them on a scale of 1-10. She judged them on several characteristics, all of which were sexual and superficial. We now know of one student who has lost his job as a result of her “thesis.” She has violated the privacy of these men, and violated a verbal contract for no-strings sex. Critiquing her physical appearance is fair in light of the fact that she did this with ALL of the men she f*cked.
      .
      As for Donna Rice, I have literally not heard a word about her between the Gary Hart scandal and this scandal. I found it surprising and ironic that she is now on the Today Show as a voice of reason and caution about sexual exploits. What are her qualifications? Should she not be judged for her actions?

  • Mike

    I remain amazed that you have felt the need, over a period of months, to zero in on this issue and argue that large penises are sexier, not just to you, but to most other women as well.
    .
    I don’t know.  You have to admire her tenacity and firmness on an issue with this magnitude and size of importance.
    .
    May the wind be always at your back, and your vagina filled with a penis you can feel.
    .
    LOL.  Thanks for a good laugh after a hard day at work.



  • http://www.mankinirevolution.com Melanie

    I have a hard time understanding your purpose in insulting the women, when your goal is to support women and serve as a positive voice.  Even if Owen insulted the guys, why would you engage in similiar behavior yourself?  Oftentimes when people insult others in this way, they do it to boast their own egos.  It comes across as mean-spirited.  As for Donna, she has done a lot to turn her life around in the last twenty plus years.  She was vice-president of Enough is Enough, an org that works to make the internet safe for kids.  She wrote the book “Kids Online: Protecting Your Children in Cyberspace.” and now she runs projectkids.com.   She appears to have learned a lot from her own hardships and mistakes, and is using her knowledge to help others.

  • Badger Nation

    Melanie,
     
    Allow me to summarize your comments thusly: “You can’t advocate for women if you are going to criticize someone who happens to have a vagina! Criticizing women is hate speech! We’re still victims of the patriarchy!”
     
    *yawn*.
     

  • Höllenhund
  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Hollenhund

    Roissy’s post is absolutely brilliant. I agree with every single word he wrote. He nailed it – she’s an epic failure, not a triumph. I know there’s talk of others writing posts over there, but no question about it – that post is by the Master himself.

  • Jess

    @Susan-
    happy to let  the debate hang. As to your amazement to my agenda/rationale its ultimately about women holding out for compatibility for the simple reason we only live once.  Still not sure why that should annoy anyone.
    @Hollenhund-
    The 2nd of your links is so steeped in open hatred for women I found myself sympathetic to censorship.
    Karen O had her confidences betrayed by her friends. Some shoddy sites made this go public- denounce them if you like. She has expressed sorrow to the men humiliated. Doesnt sound like a demon to me. If a man had 13 in 2 years, which is one girl per 2 months roughly then I wonder if he would qualify as a ‘rancid slut’. I guess it boils down to that formula thing again. My, the college halls of the western world must be full of rancidness. All the future doctors, lawyers, politians, nurses, mothers, fathers, …. well… they are all ‘rancid sluts’ it seems.
    The diatribe this whole affair has fuelled, to me, is evidence that the feminist cohort still have a point.
    So acceptable conduct for a woman: marry as a virgin in your early 20’s to someone who is dependable. It matters not if you love, respect or fancy him. It matters even less if you are physically/sexually compatible. Do not masturbate or have fantasies as this may upset his ego. Forgo all sexual pleasure and you may only talk to one woman socially at a time on a pre agreed topic by your husband. Oh and wear a veil. and dont answer back. hmmm, sounds familiar.
    Trouble is, instead of a rancid slut perhaps one turns into ‘frigid puritan’- tch you cannot win.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      The most important thing Roissy said in his article, from my POV, is that Karen Owen is faking it. She’s faking the nonchalance. Even if she is male in her orientation towards sex, she has in fact behaved in a way that is extremely rare for women. I’m not referring to her promiscuity. I had proposed, far less articulately than Roissy argued, that she was filled with self-loathing/low self-esteem. That theory didn’t really fly here. I think Roissy nailed the specific observations that had convinced me she really isn’t OK with her own choices. Specifically, he noted the following:
      1. She definitely takes revenge on the guy who screwed her, left the room, and refused to let her back up there to get her earrings. (BTW, women leaving stuff behind is often a transparent ploy to see the guy again.) She docks him for being “Canadian” and speaking French, although that’s something most women would have found attractive. He pumped and dumped her and he earned a 1 out of 10 for it.
      2. She gives the highest score to a guy who threw her tidbits – a modicum of eye contact, a lingering hand on her body. She got off on pretending she was having relationship sex. Later when he ignores her out, she says he couldn’t approach her because they had just seen each other. ???? Clearly, she’s writing her own rules to avoid interpreting any behavior as indifference. Finally, she let’s him off the hook for his disinterest saying it was because they had to graduate the next day.
      3. One guy in the comments at Roissy says he had sex with her during that period, but didn’t make the cut for the thesis. As I’ve said elsewhere, my guess is that these 13 athletes are just the tip of the iceberg. The best work in her portfolio. He says she was amazing in bed – basically down for anything, and she confesses to getting off on finding her body bruised after sex she couldn’t even remember. Think about it – what does it say about her that men want to bruise her and she wants to be injured?
      4. She looks for signs of attachment from these men, even as she pretends she doesn’t want it. She’s thrilled when she suspects a guy is jealous. She’s over the moon that a guy wanted a morning kiss and “wouldn’t let her leave” until noon. Yet she never talks about never hearing from any of them again, or about the fact that most of them were in committted relationships during these hookups.
      .
      Finally, it may just be a coincidence that she’s the daughter of a Baptist preacher, but I doubt it. All in all, I believe her actions, her notetaking for two years, her writing a thesis meant for 3 friends, complete with her real name on a title page – I’m no psychiatrist, but the real book deal should go to someone who is willing to treat this very effed up young woman.

  • Mike

    So acceptable conduct for a woman: marry as a virgin in your early 20′s to someone who is dependable. It matters not if you love, respect or fancy him. It matters even less if you are physically/sexually compatible. Do not masturbate or have fantasies as this may upset his ego. Forgo all sexual pleasure and you may only talk to one woman socially at a time on a pre agreed topic by your husband. Oh and wear a veil. and dont answer back. hmmm, sounds familiar.Trouble is, instead of a rancid slut perhaps one turns into ‘frigid puritan’- tch you cannot win.
    .
    There is a middle ground position here.  Honestly, I think only a small minority of guys would consider a woman “slutty” who has maybe 3-5 partners of which the majority were relationships with maybe 1-2 “mistakes”.  Very few are saying a woman must marry as a virgin.  I personally find that position unreasonable and borderline ridiculous.  Sexual compatibility is important no doubt but most women probably don’t need 7-8 inch dicks to be sexually satisfied.  Masturbation/fantasy.  Go for it.  Masturbate frequently.  Daily if desired.  Again, most guys are not going to have a negative picture of a girl who masturbates frequently.  Really, everything you said is just a strawman to easily knock down.

  • Brendan

    I think the issue Susan has with the posts on size, Jess, is that she disagrees with you that most women are holdouts for larger penises, and that couples which have men with average or smaller penises are, ipso facto, going to have bad sex lives.
     
    Being a man, I have no idea.  I do not have a small penis, so I have no “dog” in this fight.  But I do find it odd that what you say differs from what most women have told me over the years.  It could be another case where women say one thing while believing another, but my own sense on this is that women are generally not size queens (although size queens do certainly exist, with their preferences) and are relatively agnostic about penis size.

  • Höllenhund

    Jess,
    “Karen O had her confidences betrayed by her friends. Some shoddy sites made this go public- denounce them if you like. She has expressed sorrow to the men humiliated. Doesnt sound like a demon to me.”
    She shouldn’t have released that list in the first place, it was a stupid and wrong decision that says a lot about her personality. She’s more like yet another useful idiot of feminism instead of a demon.

  • Jess

    @Hollenhund:
    So you get to decide what its in a private transmission between friends? Why shouldnt she discuss precisely what she pleases? Telephone call, text, face to face conversation, Facetime (TM), letter, carrier pigeon, email. Its up to the recipient to control confidentiality. Its not like she did a poster campaign or mass leaflet drop. She didnt post anything on a public website. She certainly cannot be prosecuted-she broke no law. Is it the content that bothers you so much- I hate to break it to you but most women do discuss size, and at college more than at any other time in their lives. I mean that really shoulnt shock you that much. If you know women who say otherwise I’m afraid they are being economical with the turth (which we are all and have to be frankly).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re Karen Owen’s sending her thesis to three friends:

      So you get to decide what its in a private transmission between friends? Why shouldnt she discuss precisely what she pleases?

      I don’t really understand this.
      .
      First, why would a woman share this information for the first time with three college friends months after graduation when they’re not even in the same location? Did she not dish about her adventures the morning after the way most other college students do? Why would she think it interesting, funny or remotely appropriate to contact other recent graduates with 2008 information on the size of someone’s penis, or an account of a 2009 blowjob given in a library stairwell? Presumably, these friends were partners in crime back in the day. And yet, the format is not one of discussion. It’s a presentation, and she does not invite feedback. It’s her trophy.
      .
      We can probably assume that all of this information had been thoroughly shared at the time, and this was just a new format for presenting it. Why power point? Some have said that guys do this all the time, and I’ve written of frat houses having score sheets and such in the basement, as a group activity. That’s very different than a 42 page electronic document, complete with full names and photos of each guy. I imagine she is the first woman ever to assemble such a document.
      .
      Some have suggested that she may have violated privacy laws, in that she should have reasonably expected that an emailed document of this nature would be passed on to others for reading. That means that she is either an idiot, as Hollenhund suggested, or had malicious intent. Now that one of the boys has lost his job offer for next year, his family’s incentive to sue may be higher.

  • Höllenhund

    Jess,
    if she actually assumed her presentation won’t go viral after sending it to numerous friends, she’s an idiot.
     

  • no more mr nice guy

    Jess, most guys at Roissy’s are jealous because Karen Owen will never be interested in them. :)

  • Höllenhund

    LOL, Lady Raine’s loyal trolls started showing up! Only someone as idiotic as them can possibly believe that any man would crave the attention of a woman like Karen Owen.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund
      Is No More Mr. Nice Guy a LR troll? Dude or chick?

  • Jess

    @nice guy
    your comment actually is likely very close to the truth. sour grapes really. its a ‘well I cant match her standards’ so instead of accepting it they go; ‘right I will try and rubbish her and her standards instead!!’
    its like they have to do that to preserve their own self perception of masculinity/desirability.
    To be fair we all do it to some degree. When I see a really attractive women in my cicle of work or socially, a part of me does scream ‘bitch’ but its immature and silly. I hope it wouldnt allow me to treat anyone badly.
    @Hollenhund;
    I think she might have used poor judgment in sending it but an idiot? i dont think so.
    She only sent it to 2 close friends. I bet there are millions of ‘explicit’ emails and texts in cyber space. Heavens there is some critical stuff about my boss that I have texted to my boyfriend and other close friends that would have me instantly sacked!! I agree gossip like this is best done over coffee but shes still unlucky.
    Anyway- exposure aside her attitude, like it or not, is entirely mainstream in her sexual activity and opinions. She is attractive and it will be many years before she finds herself short of male company. In 10 years she will likely be married with children. This is such a storm in a tea cup. Really, as one of my friends put it “Seriously honey, we girls are supposed to keep that stuff on the lowdown- pick up the phone if you wanna dish the dirt”. I’m sure Karen and others have learnt that lesson.

  • Jess

    @SW
    Well, you know, you may be right as to inner demons, then again you might not be. I have known promiscous women who were full of self loathing but most promiscious women I have known did it because its exciting and flattering. Yes, empowering even. I had a spate myself a few years back. I was always safe and was mutually respectfull.
    Whilst I agree that to create powerpoints on ones sexual experiences IS unusual, what she actually reported wasnt. Well ok, the fullness of the detail was. But whenever my friends ‘did the nasty’ the next day the 1st question was ‘how was it?’, followed by ‘how big was he’. I should say my lesbian friends did the same btw!
    There is an element of nosiness and immarutity to all of this but well, thats young people! and please, men ARE just as bad. They may not talk about genitals in quite the same way but body parts and performance are discussed- I have heard them!!
    I take the point that she MIGHT be pretending to not give a toss for the men, but you know, having read her work, she seems witty, self deprecating, happy to reveal her insecurties, self aware, honest, vivacious, highly sexual. She doesnt seem to be the character you describe- and my previous line of work put in contact with such women.
    As I say, you may be on the nail here, time will tell, but I think some of the diagnoses are something of a stretch myself.

  • no more mr nice guy

    That reminds something. Thirty years ago, when I was living with my mother, we knew a couple in their 50s and the husband had sex problem.  Every time they were able to have sex  they were writing it on the wall calendar in their kitchen.  People visiting them were constantly asking about the meaning of these marks on the calendar and the couple were joking about it.  Even the husband was finding it funny.   So I’m not sure most of these guys that had sex with Karen O think it’s humiliating.
     

  • The Deuce

    Gotta get a kick out of Jess’ moral inversion. Being a shallow slut in the first place, and bragging about it and sharing sensitive information with your friends, are all acceptable. But betraying the sisterhood by spreading the gossip any further than the original gossiper wanted it spread – sin of sins and heresy of heresy! I’ve yet to meet an honest to God moral relativist.

  • Mike

    @Jess,
    Well, you know, you may be right as to inner demons, then again you might not be. I have known promiscous women who were full of self loathing but most promiscious women I have known did it because its exciting and flattering. Yes, empowering even. I had a spate myself a few years back. I was always safe and was mutually respectfull.
    First, let me say, for all I know you may be a good, decent, friendly person so don’t take this negatively, but by your own words you are literally proving the case of why men should avoid women like yourself for LTRs and marriage.
    .
    Male genital size is clearly a high priority item for you.  I would argue that both the preference and degree of importance you attach to it is directly a result of your extensive sexual experience.  Simply put, absent the experience, you wouldn’t even know what you are missing.  A poor person who is never rich probably doesn’t miss the lifestyle like a person who is was poor, became rich, and is forced back to poor.
    .
    Now I have no idea what your desire is regarding marriage, motherhood, children, etc.  Assuming those are in the picture, the odds that you are going to find a decent “Dad” type who is also sporting a 8″ dick is pretty remote so ultimately by your own actions you’ve set the stage where you are going to faced with having to “settle” at some point.  And then the fun begins…because the guy in many cases isn’t fully aware that you are indeed “settling”.  And then 3-5 years down the road you get bored with his average size dick.
    .
    To be emphatically clear, I’ve got no problems with your decisions or preferences from a MORAL sense…I really don’t.  If I were single, I would want a plentiful number of women with your preferences and beliefs although I’m not sure I would meet your criteria as I am above average (all guys measure) but not big.  But bottom line, your experience and preferences really do “ruin” you as a marriage prospect, and no guy with some wisdom would take a chance on someone like you.  The empirical data clearly suggest you are a massive divorce risk, and I would be willing to bet a good sum of money just from your comments here that any marriage you enter will end in divorce inside the 7-year window Michelle Langley talks about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike
      I think I recall Jess saying she is married. Yikes. Look, there’s something else going on here. She literally spent months arguing in favor of size on another post, and spammed the thread with so many nonsensical links to “prove” her point I was deleting comments left and right – the only reader I’ve ever had to do that with. For whatever reason, this issue is a very high priority for Jess, not only in the bedroom, but in the public square. It’s that need to justify or convince others, (even men who are worried about their penises!) that is relentless.

  • jess

    ‘a shallow slut’ eh? why, you are too kind sir..
    moral relativsm? moral inversion?… the usual jibes from people who insist their moral code is superior to every one elses when in reality they are just throwing their toys out of their pram.
    Men and women gossip about sex. Have done for decades. Yawn. Try not be too intimidated by that- chances are you have little to worry about.
    Are you trying to claim you have never uttered a gossipy word your entire life?
    My what saintliness we are in the presence of?
    Are you trying to claim you are physically attracted to every female on earth bar your immediate relatives?
    You see, if the answer to either of these questions is no, then you will need to re-think your moral ladder a wee bit.
    You might also wish to visit a few links provided in this thread and the other one on a similar issue to get a broader perspective on the data.

  • jess

    Mike,
    Dont worry, I dont take these things personally provided people are respectful and you were- happy to debate.
    Iwould point out that you may be clouded by SW’s comments towards me. I am no size queen- really. I have had heated arguments with size queens over the years, there is a clear distiction.
    To most people a SQ is someone who has a strong preference for large units, probably 8+ which corresponfing width/girth etc.
    Well I have had the odd one like that and it wasnt for me- just plain uncomfortable.

  • The Deuce

    Jess:
    So, I went and checked out your first couple of comments on the other thread. Very informative, I must say, and it sure does put your comments here in an interesting light. First, let’s verify something. Your comments there suggest that your life has gone something like this:
    .
    – You married/moved in with a guy at a young age, stayed with him for 12 years, and had two daughters.
    – At the urging of your friends, you cheated on him to try out a bigger penis, then left him, taking your two daughters with you.
    – You went on to have at least 25 partners, and are now a single mother approaching 40.
    .
    Have I got that about right?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The Deuce
      Your comment to Jess made me go back and read all her comments on that thread. Absolutely maddening. Oddly, she made those comments with several different emails and about 6 different IP addresses. I think I see the markings of a troll…a Size Troll.

  • no more mr nice guy

    I am a guy.  I’m not a troll and I comment regularly on LR blog.
     
    And I maintain that if any Roissy fanboy had sex with Karen O, he would brag about it and the others would call him an alpha.  These guys claim they are fucking a whole bunch of women, why not her ?
     
    For a reason or another these guys don’t think that Karen O would want to have sex with them – maybe because they want sexually submissive women and Karen O is sexually dominant.

  • Mike

    I am a guy.  I’m not a troll and I comment regularly on LR blog.
    .
    I’d bet against it.  You sure don’t sound like a guy.  I’ve seen you comment multiple times that “only losers who can’t get laid” are interested in PUA/MRA/Game.  That is typical feminist shaming/insult language.  No guy throws that one out there unless he is a hyperfeminist sycophant.  The fact that you are active on LR’s blog says plenty right there.
    For a reason or another these guys don’t think that Karen O would want to have sex with them – maybe because they want sexually submissive women and Karen O is sexually dominant.
    .
    Sexually dominant?  Ummmm….okay.  Look, she basically offered herself up on a silver platter to a bunch of alphas without them having to put in even one iota of effort, and they took her up on her offer.  Alot of ways to characterize that, but sexually dominant is not one that comes to mind.
    .
    Absolutely guaranteed you are either a woman or a sniveling suck up to the type of women embodied by LR, JF, etc.  You probably take it in the @$$ like our buddy Thomas.

  • no more mr nice guy

    You sure don’t sound like a guy.  I’ve seen you comment multiple times that “only losers who can’t get laid” are interested in PUA/MRA/Game.  That is typical feminist shaming/insult language.  No guy throws that one out there unless he is a hyperfeminist sycophant.

    MQ said it.
     
    Or any guy that read “Mode One” by Alan Roger Currie.  Many guys on Roissy fit the personality of “Mode Four” guys (angry guys that cannot get laid and want to get revenge from women).  And the way they talk about their former girlfriends/wife it’s obvious these guys were “Mode Three” guys (timid and naive guy that don’t approach women) and these women were golddigger or what Alan Roger Currie call “Wholesome Pretenders” and “Erotic Hypocrites” (manipulative women that shit test guys).  Furthermore there’s a whole chapter about “Mode Four” guys that hate nerds and  geeks that are popular with women and again many guys on Roissy’s are like that.
     
    Or any guy that  spent three years in shyness/dating forums.  When I was there I was surrounded by angry guys that could not get laid and they were saying the same things that many guys say at Roissy.
     

    Look, she basically offered herself up on a silver platter to a bunch of alphas without them having to put in even one iota of effort, and they took her up on her offer.  Alot of ways to characterize that, but sexually dominant is not one that comes to mind.

     
    She pumped and dumped these guys exactly like Roissy says he does with women, that’s a sexually dominant behavior.  Usually these women will end up with a sexually submissive guy or a doormat – you would call a guy like that a “beta”.
     

  • Brendan

    It’s the double troll thread!
     
    I haven’t reviewed Jess’s comments on the other thread — no idea where they are really.  As for our other troll — LR’s blog?  Enough said right there.

  • Clarence

    NoMoreMrNiceGuy:
    More or less they pumped and dumped her. She couldn’t hardly get a second lay from any of them, though there is more than one she says she misses. I also don’t see how water skier boy was pumped and dumped by her. She specifically complains he doesn’t hang around, and its obvious she feels totally disrespected which is why she rated him so low.
     
     

  • The Deuce

    @no more mr nice guy
    No creature is to be more pitied than the male feminist.

    For a reason or another these guys don’t think that Karen O would want to have sex with them – maybe because they want sexually submissive women and Karen O is sexually dominant.

    LOL, funny how *she* was the one who ended up with all the bruises (and liked it). On the contrary, she was looking to get dominated as thoroughly, violently, and deeply as possible. She says this herself, repeatedly, so it’s not like I’m extrapolating anything controversial here.
    .
    Also, your chain of reasoning is all f’d up. They think that KO wouldn’t want to have sex with them because they prefer sexually submissive women? What does KO’s preference have to do with theirs? Are you trying to say that KO doesn’t want them, or that they don’t want KO? And how does one follow from the other? Mike is right. You don’t sound like a guy. Your writing reads exactly like the illogical hamster-will rationalization that we see from the sex+ femsters.

    She pumped and dumped these guys exactly like Roissy says he does with women, that’s a sexually dominant behavior.

    Right. That’s why she was the one who got all giddy when they pretended to be invested in her or made possessive signals towards her after having had sex. It wasn’t the guys having to fetch their belongings from outside the door.

  • Sox

    You don’t sound like a guy. Your writing reads exactly like the illogical hamster-will rationalization that we see from the sex+ femsters.
    100% agree.

  • Mike

    She pumped and dumped these guys
    .
    Are you for real?  SHE pumped and dumped THEM?  Do you seriously believe that?
    This is very interesting.  People can have honest disagreements about stuff, but it is amazing to me when people can literally come away with just sheer absurd conclusions.  It truly reveals a mind that is incapable of processing information accurately because as it passes through the filter of ideological bias it becomes totally distorted.
    .
    It is quite clear from her thesis that she would have liked more from some of the guys, and she thought she had a “connection” with one when in all likelihood every single one of those guys viewed her as a convenient hole to dump a load in.

  • Mike

    No creature is to be more pitied than the male feminist.
    Not sure if you watched V, the old 80s mini-series with the lizard aliens, but this type of guy reminds me of the human collaborators with the aliens despite knowing humans were going to be food for the aliens.
    .
    Don’t get me wrong.  I’m all for female equality of opportunity, and the first wave of feminism in the 60s and 70s did ALOT of really good stuff.  I fully support much of that.
    .
    But the current movement as represented by the Feministes, and Jezebelites are almost from another planet in terms of their views and perception of males.  Any male who willingly supports that nonsense really has some sort of self-loathing complex related to being male.  There really is no other explanation, except maybe they believe that being a ultra-feminist supporter is a strategy to get laid, but my excerpt of JF’s words in another comment clearly indicate that is a poor strategy.  Despite the clear cognitive dissonance it induces, they still sexually prefer masculine men, not deferential supplicating pansy boys.

  • Höllenhund

    “She pumped and dumped these guys”
    Anyone who states that women can pump and dump is a complete idiot. Then again, I’m not expecting anything else from Lady Raine’s commenters. To quote David Collard: men f*ck women. Women don’t f*ck – they are f*cked. For this simple reason they cannot pump and dump.
    http://www.inmalafide.com/2010/08/19/fk-or-be-fked/
    It’s similarly idiotic to talk about “women’s sexual conquests”. Women do not “conquer” any man for sex. They are always the one to be conquered.
    “- You married/moved in with a guy at a young age, stayed with him for 12 years, and had two daughters.
    – At the urging of your friends, you cheated on him to try out a bigger penis, then left him, taking your two daughters with you.
    – You went on to have at least 25 partners, and are now a single mother approaching 40″
    That’s pretty much all I need to know about Jess. Yet another minion of the jackbooted feminist matriarchy. There are millions and millions of them out there so it isn’t that surprising.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To quote David Collard: men f*ck women. Women don’t f*ck – they are f*cked.

      This is true. P into V. Thrust into cavity. The female vagina is the receptacle of the male ejaculation. Women can only get f*cked. It’s biological reality. They can of course decide when to let themselves be f*cked, and when not to, but a woman cannot f*ck a man. (Barring abusing an underage male, which is a different issue.)

  • Jess

    Well, its been interesting reading about myself. Its a bit like chinese whipsers really. A combo of truth, exageration and inaccuracies.
    Allow me to put the record straight: (apologies for boring the pants of those who have read this before)
    1. I am 40, 2 kids, live and work in NW London.
    2. I have a long term partner- my marital status I would prefer to keep to myself.
    3. I thought I had 25+ partners, I have now done a proper audit- its actually 22. I have had a few snogs when younger.
    4. I lost my cherry at 18 and was with him for 12 years. Only cheated once. Never cheated since. Never will.
    5. Over a 4 year period I made up for ‘leaner years’ and had 20 short term relationships. Thats 5 a year on average or 1 every 2 months.
    6. Then I met the love of my life- had 2 adorable kids. We are a happy family.(as fas I am aware)
    7. I am not a size queen- I would prefer any partner sub 7.5 in lenght and sub 6in in girth. I have heard women gush about sizes WAY bigger than that.
    8. I beleive all size enlargment companies to be dishonest shams. Pills or stretching are a lie and operations can only disfigure the patient. I am happy to repeat this over and over.
    9.Past occupations/interests: SEN Education, Womens Shelters, Legal Support for Rape Victims, Campaigner for Work Place Legislation to support women, mothers and children, Literacy Support for London Ethnic Communities, Supporter for STD information campaigns, various women rights organisations, lapsed member for Greenpeace & \Amnesty International.
    10. Political leanings: relatively agnostic. If I vote its always Labour.
    11. Religious: Catholic family but agnostic myself.

    SW, Jess isnt my exact real name but I have only posted using this ‘tag’. At work and home I have a shared wifi ‘hub’ which tens or hundreds of people use so maybe that alters the ip? dont know. I have probably also posted when travelling using a phone or net cafe too. I have put my current alternative email address in the message header. The old ‘in love’ email is defunct now.
    I do hope this clarifies my situation and history. Thanks. J

  • Jess

    @Holenhund
    You are so wrong about sexual mechanics it makes me wonder what experiences you have had. It most certainly is the case that a women can ‘fuck’ a man.
    I get the idea of the man ‘doing it’ to a woman.
    But its a matter of perception. One could imagine the female parts ‘enveloping’ the male parts. Whos the victim in a venus fly trap for example?
    If a woman is on top, and the man is still, then for me, the woman is fucking the man.
    The fact you consider sex to be something men do to women tells us a great deal about you. In fact its almost ‘troll like’ behaviour.

  • Clarence

    Jess:
    Your previous comment is correct despite the bruised egos of some.
    It is true that in the SMP a man “conquers” a woman – it’s almost never the other way around because in most cases the man must initiate and make his case for sex however he will.  But when it comes to actual mechanics – Sometimes, the guy is on top, ramming away, and the lady feels very overpowered and filled up and ..well – probably somewhat sexually submissive.  Sometimes she can be on top and the dynamic can be the same. But there is a certain type of  woman -one with a higher than average libido, or possibly multi-orgasmic – that can take a man in and not let him go even when he’s well spent. It’s not ridiculous at that point to consider the man somewhat “conquered” or “engulfed”. LOL. It’s all fun.

  • The Deuce

    @Susan

    Your comment to Jess made me go back and read all her comments on that thread. Absolutely maddening. Oddly, she made those comments with several different emails and about 6 different IP addresses. I think I see the markings of a troll…a Size Troll.

    She probably does qualify as a troll, but I think there’s a high probability that her life story is true. The reason I say that is that pretty much everything she says just so happens to perform the function of justifying and promoting (or at least rationalizing) her own behavior as described in it.
    .
    Take, for instance, her insistence that KO’s behavior is perfectly normal and healthy, that 13 partners isn’t a lot, and that she shouldn’t be looked down upon or thought a slut for it. Of course she can’t accept the notion that KO is a callous and superficial slut – what would that force her to conclude about herself?
    .
    Or how about her insistence that KO’s construction of the bizarre repwhoret, the vapid evaluation of the men contained therein, and the sharing of that sensitive information with her friends were all a-ok, because “young women talk like that all the time”. Well, Jess and her friends certainly did anyhow, as revealed in her backstory where they encouraged her to try other men besides the one she was committed to, no doubt after extensive gossiping over his size. We certainly can’t condemn that sort of harmless girl talk now can we, so how can we possibly condemn KO?
    .
    And, on the other hand, there’s her belief that KO’s friends relaying the sordid gossip that was relayed to them is the only true infraction here, and that “no snitching” is the highest relevant moral imperative. And once again, it’s self-serving. Assuming what Jess has told us about herself, the notion that the sorts of things she says to her girlfriends might make the rounds to other people who know her undoubtedly makes her uncomfortable.
    .
    And last but not least is her dogged insistence that size is of utmost importance, not only to her but to all women, and the bizarre way in which she has apparently turned herself into an authority on every obscure suggestion that size matters ever made by any celebrity, pop sex therapist, or pop theorist anywhere.
    .
    Most people, reading Jess’s story, would conclude “Man, that’s horrible. She was incredibly selfish and reckless, and has really done wrong by her husband for petty reasons. Don’t be like Jess or get into a relationship with a woman like Jess.” But in the world according to Jess, the moral of the story is that *she’s* the victim, and that she was right to do what she did because she was lied to by the patriarchy about the importance of a big penis to all womens’ sexual satisfaction, that all women must be likewise liberated from this sexual bondage by being apprised of a stream of illogical anecdotes. Once again, Jess’ argument, and her dogged insistence on convincing everyone in the world of it, just so happens to function as a necessary component in making her actions seem justified.
    .
    Her posts are an indication of a rationalization hamster doing unpaid overtime under Chinese sweatshop conditions. She’s frantically rationalizing her selfish behavior into something noble, and trying to get everyone else to share in the exercise. They also reveal a woman who sees things through a solipsism prism of the finest quality. To Jess, the measure of all things high and low is how they relate to Jess.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Jess says:

      Whos the victim in a venus fly trap for example?

      This is a very, very interesting comment. The use of the word victim, as well as the metaphor. The venus (female) traps the male, who wanders in unawares. She closes up and he may not escape. Such a fascinating way to talk about sex, especially to describe two forms of life with no or little brain, and no emotional capacity. Just some sort of survival mechanism at work, devoid of conscious thought.
      .
      The Deuce says:

      Her posts are an indication of a rationalization hamster doing unpaid overtime under Chinese sweatshop conditions. She’s frantically rationalizing her selfish behavior into something noble, and trying to get everyone else to share in the exercise.

      LOL, the visual is great. Do you remember that scene in Lost in Translation where Bill Murray loses control of the elliptical?
      I think the thing that has offended me most about Jess’s claims is her attempt to even get men to share in the exercise. There is zero empathy for men, even the ones who explicitly expressed real worry in that thread on penis size. Also, doesn’t want anything over 7.5 inches? 7 inches is two standard deviations from the mean – representing 1% of men! If Jess is so happy with the love of her life, why is she preoccupied with the issue of penis size on blogs and forums? I can’t help but think that her partner and daughters would find this very odd and troubling.

  • Brendan

    Not to get bogged down in terminology, but I’ve always been very skeptical of the “woman on top = woman ‘fucking’ the man”.   Fucking has to do with penetration — hence “fucking” and “being fucked”, where the former is the act of penetrating, and the latter is the act of being penetrated.  When a woman is on top, she is still being penetrated by the man.  I would say it’s more accurate to say that she is “rutting” on the man, rather than that she is “fucking him” in that instance.  Now, if she donned a strap-on, and “pegged” the man, she would be fucking him, as would be the case if he were a gay bottom.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Fucking has to do with penetration — hence “fucking” and “being fucked”, where the former is the act of penetrating, and the latter is the act of being penetrated.

      Yes, thank you! Penetration is the word I was looking for. That is the action, which is received. There’s a reason no one ever posited a theory about vagina envy.

  • Jess

    You know, I cut and pasted the last 3 posts and emailed them to a couple of mates (rather KO like I suppose). One just called me and we have laughed harder than we have done in years- so my thanks to the contributers.
    @Bendan- I do understand the penetration concept but really, when I’m on top, I’m in control. I really am the ‘fucker’ rather then the ‘fuckee’. You will have to take my word on that one. (Gosh, this thread is gutting so crude the days.)ps If you want to say say ‘rutting’ then thats fine- I would go with that, but its something the girl does TO him not the other way around.
    @Deuce.
    I never married my 1st guy. If I had never strayed I would proably be with him now- the both of us uttery miserable. Can you elaborate on why that would be a good outcome? Instead I had a few years of great sexual fun and a rewarding series of jobs, culminating in meeting the love of my life. Most people I know are happy for me. I’m sorry you feel the way you do towards me.

  • Jess

    @Deuce
    Furthermore you are accrediting me with opinions that I do not possess nor have ever expressed. If I have written carelessly to give you these impressions then please read further:
    a. SW theorises that female preferences are mostly controlled by media and culture.
    b. I partly agree but add that I think there are 4 factors for this: biology, media, early experiences and local culture.
    c. I dont think size is critical for ALL women at all. In fact

  • Jess

    continued…
    the data says otherwise. The UCLA study said that of women with small penises partners 70% were unsatisfied with size. That leaves 30% of women who are content with a small penised man. That means either they dont give a hoot about sex, or have smaller vaginas or some other factor I cant think of. Either way they are content. I am happy to repeat this over and over in case it hasnt sunk in.
    d. What I am saying is that size matters to MANY women and if, early on, a women isnt happy in that dept, she is best advised to cut both their losses. Because he aint getting any bigger and she aint getting any smaller. And if its nagging at the back of her mind its gonna be a loudhailer in 5 years time.
    e. Am I superfiacial? Well during my naughty 4 years then yeah- I was into superficial pleasure. It was just what the doctor ordered. I dont think myself a superficial person though. I could spout my IQ and qualifications in some defensvie maneavure but for me depth of personality comes from caring about others and having an opinion on a wide variety of topics. I hate commercialism and celeb culture so I’m no chav but I would accept I havent been to the opera in a while.
    f. KO was young and flighty and did a silly thing. Maybe months before she had been dared to do it or she was bored one night- who knows. I bet she regrets it. I do feel sorry for the guys- I hope it doesnt happen to anyone else. I would be in favour of lawsuits against any public sites that showed the slides but I can’t see a court gunning for her. She sent private emails, pure and simple. If she sent 200 emails thats one thing. But to 3 close friends? A case like that would never work in the UK.

  • Brendan

    <i>I do understand the penetration concept but really, when I’m on top, I’m in control. I really am the ‘fucker’ rather then the ‘fuckee’. You will have to take my word on that one. (Gosh, this thread is gutting so crude the days.)ps If you want to say say ‘rutting’ then thats fine- I would go with that, but its something the girl does TO him not the other way around.</i>
     
    The difference in terms is not irrelevant.  Fucking implies penetration, not “control”. 
    By the way, your word does not need to be taken on this, as I have had sex many times with the woman on top — I have never experienced it as the woman being “in control”, really, it’s just another position by which I am penetrating her.  And often enough I am still thrusting up into her when she is in that position, anyway.  If it makes *you* feel “empowered” by thinking that you are “fucking” a guy when you are on top, knock yourself out, Jess, but it isn’t objectively what’s happening.
     
    When you use a dildo, are you fucking the dildo?  If you were to climb on top of a sybian, would you be “fucking” the sybian?  You’re “in control” in both cases, but I don’t think anyone would construe that as the woman ‘fucking’ the sex toy.  If anything, youre using the sex toy to fuck yourself with it.
     
    As I say, the terminology is important, because what I sense here is a desire to own the word “fucking” because it can be associated with power — that is, this is a political interpretation of the term which is at odds with what is physically happening.  That power, however, comes from penetrating another person’s body, however.  The same holds true for gay men — the guy who is the “top” is the guy who is penetrating.  Even if the “bottom” is “riding” him, he is not “fucking” the top, because the top is the one who is penetrating.

  • Clarence

    Brendan:
    You are aware that one does not have to be actively thrusting if the woman is on top?
    That’s why I said that sometimes sex from the bottom position is like normal sex – a man might be pushing up “into her”. But sometimes, when I’ve been on the bottom, the woman has told me to relax and just totally controlled the pace and everything. I didn’t even move my hips in those cases, my only requirement was to keep stiff.  In this case, I’d  say I was no longer fucking her as fucking involves action, not mere penetration. If a girl is riding a guy, he is not actively doing anything with his penis , and thus I’d maintain he’s not fucking her. So yeah, in those cases I could see the woman trying to appropriate the term -she’s doing all the movement and has more control than normal.

  • Brendan

    I guess we can redefine everything as we wish.

  • Clarence

    Brendan:
     
    This is not like you. Fucking is an ACTION.

  • no more mr nice guy

    Any woman that have sex with a bunch of guys can feel some emotional bonding to some of them (there are prostitutes that fall in love with their clients).  So it’s normal that KO felt some emotional bonding for a few of her partners.  But originally for her it was a pump and dump experiment – she only wanted sex.  She wanted to rate a bunch of guys just like PUAs do with chicks in PUAs forums.
     
    By sexually dominant, I meant a woman that play the role traditionally attributed to men  (specially in bed), and KO is obviously like that.  A woman can be sexually dominant and like rough sex or like to mutilate herself.  You should read forums about Borderline Personality Disorder.  There are plenty of women like that there.  And these women are the opposite of the completely selfless and inexperienced women that the Roissy crowd like – so these women would not want these guys.  And in many case they will chose a sexually submissive man because these guy is easy to dominate.

  • The Deuce

    @Jess

    I never married my 1st guy. If I had never strayed I would proably be with him now- the both of us uttery miserable. Can you elaborate on why that would be a good outcome?

    Yes, how magnanimous to cheat after gossiping with your g/fs about your guy’s wang.

    Furthermore you are accrediting me with opinions that I do not possess nor have ever expressed.

    Whatever. You’ve left a pretty good paper trail, in this thread and in the last.

  • Höllenhund

    Jess,
    “I think she might have used poor judgment in sending it but an idiot? i dont think so. She only sent it to 2 close friends. I bet there are millions of ‘explicit’ emails and texts in cyber space.”
    We’re talking about an elaborate PowerPoint presentation here, not an explicit e-mail. It’s exactly the type of material that is almost designed to go viral on the Internet. Sending it to others is extremely poor judgment. Expressing extremely poor judgment = idiocy.
    “Heavens there is some critical stuff about my boss that I have texted to my boyfriend and other close friends that would have me instantly sacked!!”
    There is a useful saying among officials in the Vatican: “Always think everything trough, talk rarely, never put anything in writing”. Learn it.
    “She is attractive and it will be many years before she finds herself short of male company.”
    Male company != male companionship and commitment.  I didn’t see anyone state she’ll be short of male company. It’s just that she’s destined to be pump & dump material and nothing more after she has ruined her reputation among men.
    “In 10 years she will likely be married with children.”
    That I somewhat doubt, even with the number of spineless loser betas inhabiting the US factored in. Her presentation was on TV, a simple Google search will bring her presentation up. Only supplicating beta types would consider her LTR material – you know, exactly the type of men she isn’t attracted to in the least bit. For that reason she’s unlikely to ever have a fulfilling marriage.
    “I’m sure Karen and others have learnt that lesson.”
    For Karen it’s too late.
    “and please, men ARE just as bad. They may not talk about genitals in quite the same way but body parts and performance are discussed- I have heard them!!”
    Can you show me a single example of  a man putting together a similar elaborate PowerPoint presentation for vengeful purposes?
    “But its a matter of perception. One could imagine the female parts ‘enveloping’ the male parts. Whos the victim in a venus fly trap for example?”
    Cocks aren’t trapped in vaginas for feeding. Duh!
    “If a woman is on top, and the man is still, then for me, the woman is fucking the man.”
    This point was addressed in the post on In Mala Fide that I linked. Read it.
    “The fact you consider sex to be something men do to women tells us a great deal about you. In fact its almost ‘troll like’ behaviour.”
    Hah! Nice attempt at shaming language. But this stuff doesn’t work on male commenters here. What do you want me to admit? That in my opinion men view sex as something they do to women and women view good sex as something an attractive man does to them? Well, yeah – because sex is something that men, technically speaking, DO to women. Duh! Isn’t a blowjob something that a women does to a man?
    But back to my original point: the notion that women can pump and dump anyone is ludicrous for many reasons. First of all, “pumping” in this context refers to the male thrusting motion and the act of pumping out semen; women don’t do anything similar. Secondly, it implies that the woman is getting something whereas the man is losing something, that a man can be “used” in consensual casual sex. That’s ludicrous on its face and no explanation is needed.

  • Average Joe

    @ no more mr nice guy

    By sexually dominant, I meant a woman that play the role traditionally attributed to men  (specially in bed), and KO is obviously like that..
    Umm. No! Dominant people always orgasm. Karen had a lot of non orgasmic sex… because she was a groupie slut with an alcohol problem. She’s truly a closet sub who likes to be defiled by lacrosse players.
     

  • Anonymous

    @Hollenhund
    There is a useful saying among officials in the Vatican: “Always think everything trough, talk rarely, never put anything in writing”. Learn it
    .
    I think there is a better phrase for the vatican: “Dont fornicate with choir boys; Learn it”
    .
    Look, I’m not out to exonorate KO. She made an error in judgment and people (and herself) have been hurt. I dont know if she was naive or mailcious or just got caught up in the situation- she enjoyed writing it, might have been egged on, having written it she might have felt it deserved a small audience ect etc- who knows.
    But even the most critical of her must admit:
    a. shes quite pretty, b. shes witty, c, she clearly not a moron as shes in college and is literate. thus she will do ok.
    Guys who think highly of themselves in the sack will not be put off by her.
    Many guys know that both sexes experiment at college- its no big deal.
    And again, 13 is not THAT much. I mean 113 would be!
    Lets assume she did double her 13. Call it 26 in 2 years!! If she was safe so what?
    Some guys boast of 100’s of conquests!
    If some of your female friends or ex girlfriends were completley honest about their experiences I think you would  be surprised or a least a bit upset. But the thing is there is no need to be. No of us are saints you know.
    @Susan- that reminds me, I had meant to ask: prior to your marriage how many partners did you have? and as a follow up: if you hadnt had met your hubby for another 3 years how many more partners do you think you would have had in that time period?
    Jess

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Susan- that reminds me, I had meant to ask: prior to your marriage how many partners did you have? and as a follow up: if you hadnt had met your hubby for another 3 years how many more partners do you think you would have had in that time period?

      Haha! Are you serious? The only reasonable answer is “It’s none of your business.”

  • jessdixon@yahoo.com

    That last post was by me, sorry,
     Jess

  • Average Joe

    @ Brendan
    “As I say, the terminology is important, because what I sense here is a desire to own the word “fucking” because it can be associated with power — that is, this is a political interpretation of the term which is at odds with what is physically happening.  That power, however, comes from penetrating another person’s body.”
    You are correct!
    A lot of women even like to misuse the word “fuck” as some sort of euphemism for “have sex” as in “girl, did you fuck him last night?”  But your  “pegging” example… which is really just a special type of fucking… ie woman… with strap on .. up man’s butt reveals the truth. Would anyone ever say that he was pegging a she based on who was doing the moving? Nope! Penetration determines who is being fucked.
     
     

  • Average Joe

    Guys who think highly of themselves in the sack will not be put off by her.
    Actually the opposite is true. You can tell has a lot of unsafe sex, she thanks alcohol in her acknowledgments and she says many racist things

  • Jess

    Oh brother!!
    As you well know those specifics are upper limits!!!
    Average guys with average skills  do just fine!!!!
    I notice you deleted my post that talked about there are many women are happy with smaller than average units! (UCLA study)
    Why are you making me out to be this monster?
    I also notice you dodged my last few questions? Why? You have been candid in the past?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess at 9:20
      Are you talking to me? If so I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven’t deleted any of your comments other than the spammy links months ago. I’m not making you out to be a monster – I just think you are completely off base on this issue. I also think you’re seeking some kind of validation that you won’t find here. There really is no point in debating further what women prefer. To each his own.
      .
      As for your questions about my sexual history, I find them rude. I have been candid in many ways since I started writing, and I’ve shared my history when it was relevant to a post. That’s my call. I have no obligation to share information on demand from readers. You have no right to ask me something you wouldn’t ask a stranger – because that’s what I am to you.

  • Fresco

    Karen Owen strikes me as a blabbermouth and a braggart. I do think she’s pretty decent, she’s young, fit. I’d giver her like a low 8 or something on the scale.  I know that alot of women kiss and tell (and men too). That said, I’d never consider her for more than a hookup. She’s not serious. She attention seeking. She’s just got trouble written on her.

    Her whole attitiude is passive aggressive. Some dude asked her to dance and then back to his place and she was like whatever, ok. Then she makes fun of him to her friends for being a lousy lover. Umm. You can just say no to a dude. It’s less rude than making fun of him later. 

    It’s speculative but I’d bet the reason she sent this powerpoint out is to show off to her friends that she could get laid with popular guys.  Now she’s probably wondering why people are calling her an idiot.

  • Average Joe

    Fresco,
    She’s an 8 on big fat loser, not on duke campus. There she is a 6. Her sluttiness gets her guys… but not for very long. Have you seen the picture of her in her jeans overalls?

  • Jess

    Well I have to confess I am somewhat bemused.
    The post of mine that had gone missing has re-appeared so perhaps it was a system glitch.
    I’m not seeking validation of any kind- I’m very comfortable with my decisions emotionally and ethically. Like everyone here I like to throw in my tuppence worth- very much part of the human condition dont you think?
    As to my questions I hadnt meant to bait or offend you- given the discussion my questions were clearly germane.
    If you dont wish to divulge thats fine but I dont see why I couldnt at least ask. You have described personal sexual experiences previously (the ‘pinky’ guy etc)  so I didnt imagine for one moment you would be taken aback!
    As for the stranger thing….thats an odd comment. I mean no-one on here has met each other and dont know what we look like etc but I have spoken with people on here and other blogs more than most relatives. Some people have been very revealing and open on these threads- not sure they are ‘strangers’ in the usual sense of the word.

  • TeflonExpat

    “Karen Owen reminded me that an empowered woman is a force to be reckoned with. Women of the developed world who empower themselves are so much more effective in helping the women of the developing world defeat their obstacles (the least debilitating of which might be a lack of self-confidence) and achieve that same self-empowerment. Is Karen Owen an activist? No. Is she a goddess? Not really. But she had an impact on me, and hopefully I’m having an impact on you. The ripples have just begun…”
    .
    http://feministing.com/2010/10/22/guest-blog-mighty-modern-aphrodite/
    .

    Oh yeah, Karen Owen empowered herself by saying “go for it” to a gang of adolescent boys and the feministing mental giants view her as some great representation of American women for the world to see! She is a worthless shameful embarrassment and her one-off antics are already fading from the press. Nobody is reckoning with Owen’s “force” and women of the developing world already exude self confidence (thank you very much) in addition to incomparable maturity, self respect and grace. American feminism comes to a screeching halt at the Rio Grande River and good highly marriageable foreign women have no need for the vitriol spewing from the mouths and acts of these harpies.

  • Jess

    Teflon:
    I dont know if you are doing a ‘troll’ impression or have some anti woman/islamic tendancies but you are just being silly.
    I very much doubt that KO thinks of herself as Joan of Arc. The feminist lobby is making the point that guys have being doing this sort of thing for centuries. She played by the same rules and came out ok the other side. Some women who are intimidated and disenfranchised by the hook up culture will feel empowered by what she did.
    Do rememeber she didnt mean for the slides to go public. What she did in of itself isnt everyones cup of tea- but there isnt anything unethical in her actions.
    You speak as though all western women are harlots and the rest of the world paragons of virtue. I suggest you research global prostitution for a bit of education.
    May I ask what your current status is? You write in a way that suggests you have very limited experience of women.

  • TeflonExpat

    @Jess
    .
    “I suggest you research global prostitution for a bit of education”
    .
    That is a non sequitur, but since you raised the point:
    .
    There are prostitutes in every developing nation I have visited or lived in, including Ecuador to a lessor extent and where I live now. Western men used to frequent prostitutes a lot more in the United States prior to 40 years ago than they do now. Hmmmm…I wonder why that changed. No man is obligated to marry a prostitute and most will not unless he is duped. Not just because she charged multitudes of men for sex but because she had sex with multitudes of men. The difference in nations like Ecuador is that there is a HUGE population of women who are not prostitutes and that same population has not had sex with multitudes of men. In the US, a man is exposed to a higher probability of meeting a woman who, although not a prostitute by trade, has had sex with multitudes of men. In Ecuador the liklihood of meeting such a woman outside of prostitution is very very low. Thus, an American man, if HE so chooses, can have sex with multitudes of “liberated” “empowered” women in the US and then laugh his way south of Mexico and have his pick of giddy love struck chaste disease-free fertile wife-worthy women. And yes, most are over the age of 25 and childless.

  • Jess

    “No further questions your honour””
    J

  • Janipurr

    I think I need to stop coming to this site. Your hatred of women is just too much. I can’t believe some of the comments here that you haven’t called BS on. “She’s going to damage her reproductive organs”–really? SERIOUSLY? How can you NOT call BS on that? You sound just like the Tea-Bagging Right–if them wimmen would just learn to close their legs and obey men, all would be right with ‘Merica!

    You know, sometimes women just like to have sex. Nobody thinks twice when a MAN has sex with dozens of women–so why can’t a woman just want to have sex, without being slut-shamed? Why does that automatically mean that is something wrong with her? Why aren’t men preserving their virtue, and restraining themselves? Because it’s *expected* that they will have lots of sex?

    You know, I just want to be treated like a human being, with different needs at different times of my life, like any other human being (read:man). There were times when I was young that I just wanted sex. I didn’t want a relationship, and ran the other way when it seemed that’s what was being offered. As I got older, I decided I didn’t want sex or a relationship, and spent a time being celibate. Now, I am in a LTR with a good man, one who wants to marry me. He doesn’t care who I had sex with, and I don’t who he had sex with. I just care what happens *now*. I don’t consider any of those times a mistake. I learned alot from the men I had sex with, and learned alot during my time I was celibate.

    I’m tired of people judging this woman because of the sex she had. Making an essay about it with real names and pictures was certainly poor judgement, but I see her simply as human. Maybe she liked sex. There are thousands of men out there who complain that their wives don’t like sex, and they never “get any”–men even divorce their wives over it. I say that’s what they get for marrying a virgin. Only a woman who has a low libido or a problem with sex would “save” herself till she was 25. You want to spend your later years completely celibate (or hiring a prostitute)? Go ahead, marry one of these women.

    The other side of the coin is that it’s openly admitted that men do this *all the time*, yet I don’t see a huge media orgy over that. It’s sexist attitudes like this that need to change, not women like Owen. From now on, I consider this blog anti-woman, anti-sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @janipurr
      Call me a slut shamer if you like, but I don’t hate women. I just think promiscuity is a poor strategy for women who don’t want to wind up like so many of today’s sex positive feminists. For the record, I don’t police comments. Unlike most feminist blogs, I don’t moderate comments, nor do I assume responsibility for their content. As for damaging reproductive organs, I don’t recall the precise comment, but if she has an STD (and she probably does), she could very well damage her fertility. You know that, don’t you?
      .
      You will never change the sexual double standard. Ever. It is biological. Countless studies have reinforced this. Men do not want to commit to a woman with an extensive sexual history. If you’ve already got a long list, you may not want to hear that, but it’s not a matter of opinion, and you can’t “re-educate” men.
      .
      Karen Owen probably does like sex, but that doesn’t explain her behavior. After all, a woman can love sex and be in a monogamous relationship. What Karen Owen’s choices tell us is that she is unlikely to ever be satisfied with one particular penis, even if she ever gets the chance at an LTR, which I doubt.
      .
      HUS is not anti-woman or anti-sex, but it’s fair to say that I’m anti-promiscuity, precisely because it harms women, even those not having casual sex.

  • TeflonExpat

    @janipurr
    .

    “I’m tired of people judging this woman because of the sex she had.”
    .
    Yeah, me too, and you’re right. The only person who absolutely reserves the right for “judging this woman” is any man she is considering for a long term relationship. He may choose to not care, but if he does, its no one’s business but his. And that despite HIS sexual past.
    .
    Do you understand that?

  • Jess

    @Janipur and SW
    .
    From the men I have spoken to (my partner included) they would want a full medical screening for any partner they were going to have unprotected sex with and provided thats ok then they dont really care about sexual history.
    .
    Plenty of men do have a pretty healthy attitude towards female sexuality these days. You just have to negogiate your way around those with issues.
    .
    As you know SW I dont agree with your ‘biological statment’. There is plenty of evidence of female mammals being promiscuious and also of ancient human females needing to be promiscous.
    .
    I would not agree SW is anti-women, some of her posters appear so but I support a non censureship stance myself. That said I find mself agrreeing and disagreeig with SW in equal measure.

  • TeflonExpat

    @janipurr
    .

    “Plenty of men do have a pretty healthy attitude towards female sexuality these days.”

    That’s quite a statement. Plenty as in “enough” and enough to choose from for the vast pool of available US women? “Healthy” attitude vs what? an unhealthy attitude where value is assigned to “female sexuality”? Do you mean mens’ minds have somehow altered in just two generations and have come around to agree with women that intercourse is just, well, an extension of making out and is no big deal? Why does “female sexuality” always seem to imply multiple male sex “partners?” Does the “healthy attitude” include men just accepting (and I guess celebrating) the fact that its easy for women to get laid whenever they want?

  • TeflonExpat

    That was @Jess

  • Janipurr

    The comment about “damaged reproductive organs” didn’t mention anything about STDs. And why would you *assume* she has them? Because she is having sex drunk, so therefore must not be using condoms? Isn’t that a pretty arrogant conclusion?

    And no, I don’t agree that promiscuity is “inherently bad” for women. For some women, yes. For this woman, who knows–I don’t think we have enough information to assume that. And yes, I am disgusted by the very attitudes portrayed here by TeflonExpat and others–all this talk of “Alpha males” and “Beta males”, and a woman’s inherent worth only being in how pure her chastity is. Jesus, I feel like I’m still living in the 1950s. I have always been attracted to geeks and fanboys, which I’m guessing are not considered “Alpha”, and always thought the jocks and bullies were jerks. Not that I didn’t occasionally date a jerk–they certainly exist among the geek set (see “Social Network”), and while I didn’t have much trouble finding sex partners when I was younger, I certainly never considered myself a “slut”. But if you want to call me that, go right ahead, I couldn’t care less.

    I have been in several LTR–usually between 2 and 4 years. And I have had a number of “brief” encounters. The absolute best sex I ever had was with one of those weekend encounters, by far, so it does not hold true that the only “good sex” a women has is in a LTR. I am tired as hell at the constant patriarchal, condescending attitude of the majority of US attitudes towards sex, wherein men try and tell us what is good for us. I think I have the right to decide what is good for me, and me alone. And if that means I don’t get to have a relationship with a judgmental dickhead who judges me entirely on the number of partners I have had, so be it. I don’t need to be in a relationship to be happy, which I have proven to myself. And I think that makes my current relationship that much better.

    I think what is going on here is that men in the US are starting to realize that women don’t “need” them in the way they used to–in other words, women don’t have to put up with juvenile and dickhead behavior simply for economic reasons anymore. Men are expected to treat women like human beings, instead of personal slaves. And that realization is panicking a portion of the male population–these men don’t like the idea that they may have to act like adults and treat everybody, women included, like they are equal human beings. That’s where the misogyny here is coming from, and don’t try to blow it off as “reality”. It’s misogyny, pure and simple.

    I will end by saying that there are many men out there, especially younger men, who grew up realizing that mom was a person as important to daily life and society as dad was, and are happy to treat them like human beings. (Though, apparently, not in certain fraternities at college.) I appreciate those men, and am happy to have found one. *Those* men will find a large pool of appreciative (US) women to choose from, and if you find that the only women you find acceptable exist in third world countries, then perhaps you should start evaluating your own attitudes, rather than condemning all of US women entirely.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think what is going on here is that men in the US are starting to realize that women don’t “need” them in the way they used to–in other words, women don’t have to put up with juvenile and dickhead behavior simply for economic reasons anymore. Men are expected to treat women like human beings, instead of personal slaves.

      It is true that women don’t need men in the same way as they did 40 years ago. However, women describe themselves as being far less happy today than they did in 1970 (Stevenson and Wolfert). Far less. Why? It probably has something to do with high expectations. Two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women and the most frequently cited reason is boredom.
      .
      I can’t speak to your experience, but my own mother was never treated like a slave. She happily inhabited the role of homemaker. Women have made significant gains, which gives them freedom to make choices, but would you be surprised if I told you that all of the full-time working mothers I know are incredibly stressed out? Every single one has found or is seeking a way to cut back and spend more time at home with their kids. I know a handful of women who make work their highest priority – their children have been raised by a series of au pairs.
      .
      Re the way men treat women, remember that incentives drive behavior. Women who behave as “pump and dump” material will find takers, and both parties are coarsened by the experience. As one male put it bluntly on another blog – women want romance, but today they have to buy it with sex. Sex is the route into a relationship, so a woman who eschews promiscuity has priced herself out of the market. Those are the real dynamics on college campuses. And of course, relationships on campus are generally of the “college marrieds” variety – those students who opted out of hooking up from the start.
      .
      It’s great that you found a man who makes you happy. But can you honestly not see the multitudes of women around you who are absolutely miserable in this SMP? Feminists tend to accuse the older generation of making a fuss about hookup culture, but most of the articles written about it are by women in college. College counseling centers are overflowing with women who want to talk about it.
      .
      Women have always policed one another’s sexual behavior as a component of intrasexual competition. That’s another reality. Slut shaming is something done by women to other women, because there’s strong incentive to do so.
      .
      As for the “no good American women left” meme, I have argued against that and consider it nonsense. However, I will admit that American culture, with its KOs, Jaclyn Friedmans, SATC, etc. is perpetrating the “sex as empowerment” lie to the detriment of many American women.

  • TeflonExpat

    @janipurr

    “women don’t have to put up with juvenile and dickhead behavior simply for economic reasons anymore.”
    .
    No, just for some fantasy BFE. Going out, getting wasted and saying yes to whatever most attracts you for the night has nothing to do with economics. Just one more juvenile dickhead that no one need know about…
    .
    mi·sog·y·ny [mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-] –noun. hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
    .
    —Related forms
    mi·sog·y·nic, mi·sog·y·nous, mi·sog·y·nis·tic, adjective
    mi·sog·y·nist, noun
    .
    In North America:
    .
    “Misogyny” is the trendy new catch-all “poor me; shame on you” term.
    .
    Treat women with respect and you will be called a misogynist.
    .
    Anyone who criticizes women is a misogynist.
    .
    Anyone who criticizes or attempts to escape from feminism is a misogynist.
    .
    Anyone who will not consider a long term relationship with a woman for any personal reason including her prolific sexual past is a misogynist.
    .
    Anyone who criticizes women for inappropriately using the word misogynist is a MOST DEFINITELY a misogynist.
    .
    Anyone who denies misogyny exists is a misogynist.
    .
    American men who seek romance with foreign women are all categorically misogynists (most ironic, given the definition of misogyny). Proudly, then, I am a misogynist.
    .
    Yep, you have plum burned it out. Spent. Played. The word misogyny is now defined as meaningless, self-imposed, psychological trauma resulting in indifference by the general population and when spewed by feminists the reaction is:
    .
    sighgyny [sī-jo-nee] v. intr., To yawn or sigh repeatedly in an effort to subtly communicate one’s lack of interest in American feminist concerns. n., A series of long, exasperated, and often escalating sighs indicating extreme boredom.

  • TeflonExpat

    @Susan

    “As for the “no good American women left” meme, I have argued against that and consider it nonsense. However, I will admit that American culture, with its KOs, Jaclyn Friedmans, SATC, etc. is perpetrating the “sex as empowerment” lie to the detriment of many American women.”
    .
    There are good ones in the US. But its about odds and those prospects are better where nearly all women have NEVER heard of KOs, Jaclyn Friedmans, SATC, or Spring Break, or the term “hook up” in any language. That is, they are not ruined. If you are talking about costs, run the numbers. Spend time and money to go out with 50 US women and maybe, just maybe one somehow stands out. That’s about $100 times 50 or $5,000. Now take just half of that and instead of flying two hours from Miami to NY, point the plane the other way and fly two hours to sunny Honduras three times in three months and you will meet 40 out of 50 wife prospects.
    .
    The hook up culture is a win win for a promiscuous US woman who can manage to find US man that accepts her as “human.” For men, its a super win when taking full advantage of female “empowerment” by screwing body hurling KO’s and JF’s in the Global North and marrying massively available chastity in the Global South. There was a time when men could have a screw list and a marry list in the US. Now its split between countries. Other than that, nothing has really changed. The 1950’s are alive and well and just a short cheap flight away. Its called passport misogyny and is boatloads of fun.

  • Jess

    @SW,
    Have you had any mental health professionals comment on your site? Some of the comments here are so clearly mysognystic one wonders if its a troll stirring up trouble.
    .
    Talk of ‘being ruined’, ‘chastity’, I dunno sounds too far fetched maybe?
    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      TeflonExpat is not a troll. I will say that his views are very strong – some would say extreme. However, the points he makes about American culture are valid. Personally, I don’t think it is necessary to leave the country to find love, but I agree with TE that the odds are long – the number of women who are discerning in their sexual choices has decreased significantly. On the other hand, I started this blog because of the rampant sheer misery that those women are experiencing, as so many men act like players and avoid relationships. There are large groups of both men and women who are not participating in casual sex. The women by choice, the men less so. Those men who have been dissatisfied with the SMP are understandably seeking (and apparently finding) alternatives.

  • TeflonExpat

    @Jess
    .
    “Talk of ‘being ruined’, ‘chastity’, I dunno sounds too far fetched maybe?”
    .
    I thought so too when friends returning from Chang Mai and La Paz spoke of wonderful and fantastic tales. But then the US Government, to which you pay taxes (thank you), provided me with a pass to escape the SATC detritus in NY. They sent me a passport.

  • Jess

    We have a thai bride thing here in the uk. The 40 yo guy goes abroad and comes back with a 20yo bride (who is escaping economic and patriachal enslavement).
    She stays for 12 months (and in doing so gains uk status) and then promptly leaves him for a guy she actually loves and is attracted to. and she gets to stay in a nice society.
    Sounds similar to what you are describing Teflon….dont you think?

  • TeflonExpat

    No Jess it does not. ALL my friends who live with their foreign wives/girlfriends do so in the her country. Sort of throws a wrench in those unproven feminist tales….dont you think? Those tales abound in the US too because it makes women feel better to make up foreign women stories with unhappy endings. Typical. Pervasive. Predictable. Pathetic. So sorry to burst your bubble. There are no sex slaves, domination, mistreatment, and blah blah blah. Just accept it – men have the option to have wonderful young fertile wives in foreign countries. Western women have similar options, but rarely do I see the reverse. They go after the same small group of guys in the West so no wonder that there are many single frustrated women. Too bad for them. Not. My. Problem.
    .
    Why would any wise Western man bring a foreign women into the US/UK? Her entire family is part of the benefit of being with her. The extended family watches the children and we all combine our resources. No woman I have ever met around here has heard of SATC, spring break, hooking up, one-nighters, Title IX, maternity leave, repro rights, pay equity, gloria steinem, Karen Owen, Amanda Marocotte, work life balance…and so I never hear about it. There are over 50 million women of marriage age south of Mexico. I only wanted one. Yep, I had my fun with “liberated” women in NY but my wife has NEVER known that grimy world. I bask in the knowledge that the millions here will not be tainted since American feminism comes to a screeching halt at the Rio Grande River.

  • Jess

    Well good for you I suppose. I have no bubble to burst or axe to grind.
    A part of me does rather feel sorry for the millions of women in Mexico you descibe.
    I think of a life without a career, work life balance, pay equity etc is terribly unfair.
    .
    If one wants a life like that then thats great but for many its a form of penance.
    I count myself lucky I have a vote, protection in law etc and that I dont know any men with your views (I suspend my disbeleif in trolldom when I say this obviously).
    .
    Your ability to assume that its ok for you to screw around but not your wife isnt a threat to me but merely proof positive feminism has many battles to fight on many issues.

  • TeflonExpat

    @Jess
    .
    “A part of me does rather feel sorry for the millions of women in Mexico you descibe.
    I think of a life without a career, work life balance, pay equity etc is terribly unfair.”
    .
    That is known as feminist imperialism – knowing what’s best for foreign women because it feels right to you. Not much different than what the Spanish did to the native people here 500 years ago. The women here are very happy – they don’t look to men as some benchmark or the pinnacle of what it means to be human or fulfilled. American women could learn a lot, but they know it all already, so it aint gonna happen.
    .
    “Your ability to assume that its ok for you to screw around but not your wife isnt a threat to me but merely proof positive feminism has many battles to fight on many issues.”
    .
    I never thought about whether my wife screwed around or cared when I met her. It just turned out that way but when I do think back, yes I am very happy she did not. Whether I did or not makes no difference to me or her but if I did not, I would never have learned how extremely different women are between the North and the South. NO MAN if he had a choice would choose a women for a wife with a mind boggling sexual past. She is a happy person and proof positive that a woman does not need to “discover her sexuality” or “find herself” by hopping in and out of multiple beds. You go ahead and fight your fight for equal promiscuity, but on your side of the border please and not within 50 miles of my daughters.

  • Jess

    Well,again, if this is all real, and if we assume your daughters are relatively young then in 20 years time they will be adults. I bet mexican society will have moved on in that time.
    You may be having similar discussions with them in times to come.
    I suppose contentment comes in many forms and there are many ways to measure quality of life.
    No doubt there are russian peasants that are happy with their lot.
    But to follow that argument to its logical conclusion you have to eradicate education, the scientific way of viewing things, an ability to critique political climates.
    Are you going to remove your daughters from school?
    Ban net access?
    Police their friends?
    Ban TV?
    Ban pop music?
    You do understand that every culture in the world is changing dont you? The last 15 years has seen expotential changes- Mexico is next door to the USA.
    Its not common for humans to relinquish the vote once they have it you know- human nature.
    (cue argument about Korea and Russia)
    I think it boils down to choice- you should be able to follow your heart.
    If you are gay, dont let anyone tell you its wrong.
    If you want to have a varied sex life,whilst you are still young, I say go for it and be safe.
    If you prefer celibacy and solitude, dont let anyone demand you sleep with someone.
    Take advice, be kind, make the best choices you can, confident the world will keep on turning.
    And to any women reading this, please rest assured that in Westen society most intelligent, well adjusted guys dont think like this- truly, truly. Go ask one of your male friends if he wants to leave his country to marry a devoutly chaste mexican woman who will bear children, cook dinner and have precisley nothing in common with.

  • TeflonExpat

    First, this is Ecuador. Second, there is no need to ban anything. All those media outlets are here. Yes, there is always change. But that change need not include cult influences which is exactly what the so-called sex positive minority group is. Its a fad that has not appeared here and will not. Its barely 40 years old and human civilization has been around for 40,000. A mere floozy spec. And this is called progress? This is what America shows the world? The population here is absolutely shocked by US female behavior and its not due to religion. Its just abhorrent disgust.
    .
    Well adjusted? to what? your way of thinking? Molding mens minds to come around to your way of behavior so they will be there for you when you’re done experimenting? Thats some adjustment. But you’re right about having something in common if women lowering their treatment of sex to the level of men, well you do have that in common.
    .
    Again, you’re there with your feel-better assumptions about foreign women and how they relate and what they do. Typical, typical. Just spew out whatever gets you by. And dont worry about other women fearing the loss of men – those guys are getting exactly what they want – a quick piece of ass because its being offered and they hardly ever turn it down. The definition of cheap is something that is abundant and easy to get.

  • Jess

    1. Mexican/ Ecaqadourian culture WILL change over the next 20 years. (oh yes it will)
    2. Post modernism may be only 40 years old but its like the wheel and fire- you cannot uninvent it
    3. I made no such assumptions- you yourself listed your distaste for certain human rights like equal pay, maternity leave etc.
    4. Your aversion to experimentation: ARE YOU allowed to experiment?
    5. For the record I have decided I hate SATC- crass, vain, shallow, small minded brats are not great role models in my esteemed opinion. On that therefore we must celebrate agreement.

  • TeflonExpat

    1. Mexican/ Ecaqadourian culture WILL change over the next 20 years. (oh yes it will).
    .
    Its been changing during the 10 yrs I have been here. All cultures evolve. What’s your point?
    .
    2. Post modernism may be only 40 years old but its like the wheel and fire- you cannot uninvent it
    .
    Is that some sort of euphemism describing KO’s behavior? If so, it aint getting down here. And if its about more economic equality – that is a good thing and it does not follow from such equality that an overwhelming majority of women will be brainwashed into devaluing their sexuality just so a minority of “liberated” women can feel better about their behavior. That is, economic equality does not cause women to get multiple-man sex urges. Its due to a host of psychological issues that for some reason is a Western society mental health problem.
    .
    3. I made no such assumptions- you yourself listed your distaste for certain human rights like equal pay, maternity leave etc.
    .
    There is no distaste if its not carried out without special treatment for one group just because some folks desire or have the natural talent to work harder and longer. The only sure way to achieve this sort of “equality” is by encouraging or forcing men to work less outside the home and that seems to be what is being attempted now. Of course, that may not be the highest and best use of individual initiative, but anything in the name of fantasy equality I suppose.
    .
    4. Your aversion to experimentation: ARE YOU allowed to experiment?
    .
    What aversion? I stated that it was not necessary to do that in the course of becoming a self aware human and that my wife was proof of that and no man would ever state they would be put off by her lack of experimentation. People can do whatever they want to do. Its your option to accept or reject them based on that and that is a personal decision. If she wanted to, she could have rejected me because of it and I would have accepted her choice to do so. Its women who are having a hard time dealing with the fact that men will reject them because of these behaviors even though they are also free to use that criteria when selecting men. A person’s selection criteria should be respected no matter what because, well, its personal.
    .
    5. For the record I have decided I hate SATC- crass, vain, shallow, small minded brats are not great role models in my esteemed opinion. On that therefore we must celebrate agreement.
    .
    Unfortunately, the damage has been done. But hopefully, the detritus will rinse out in a generation.

  • Jess

    1. See your posts above- its changing and will likely embrace western trends especially female empowerment and choice which your daughters are likely to avail themselves of.
    2. I meant it in a wider sense but certainly including KO I guess. I meant that culture change is unlikely to be a fad. The graph is expotential and is unlikey to have any dips in it. In fact devout relgious chastitiy is likely to be the ‘blip’ if you look at big enough lengths of time.
    3. All groups fight for equality be they gay, black, lesbian, disabled, transgender, female or immigrant. Western societies tend to give these groups better protection under the law. Studies show the glass ceiling still exists though. Most women will accept that maternity is bound to affect the average calculations of course- but studies suggest even if you take account of that, earnings are still effected by gender. That, I hope you would accept, isnt fair.
    4. Now, now, you cant change your tune- you are clearly highly critical of non virginal women. You even changed your country to gain access to these women and advise others to do so too. My point is simply ‘whats good for the goose is good for the gander’. If you want to talk biology then that would promote female experimentation!
    I however I completely agree sexual selection is a private matter that should be respected. Or to put it simply ‘you cant fake a hard on’. Trouble is, and I’m not suggesting your case is like this, is that when men go abroad to pick virignal wives the women are not selecting sexually-they are selecting financially. Now Im not judging these women- everyone has the right for a better life- you only live once BUT if I discovered my SO only wanted me for financial reasons then my relationship to me would be a total sham. I suspect such men are suspending disbelief.
    5 I wouldnt say SATC did any huge damage as such-its just a crap show

  • TeflonExpat

    1. See your posts above- its changing and will likely embrace western trends especially female empowerment and choice which your daughters are likely to avail themselves of.
    .
    The changes here come with responsibility and wisdom and therefore will not be a Western trend or Western type of change.
    .
    2. I meant it in a wider sense but certainly including KO I guess. I meant that culture change is unlikely to be a fad. The graph is expotential and is unlikey to have any dips in it. In fact devout relgious chastitiy is likely to be the ‘blip’ if you look at big enough lengths of time.
    .
    As i said, cultures always change and of course that is not a fad. If a certain behavior erupts that is then found to be incompatible in mate selection, then people engaging in that behavior will be shunned. You see that now as even American men will reject women for marriage even if they are willing to have sex with them. Religious chastity is not the driver here, its just good old fashioned disgust. Why you seem to insist that this pandemic must expand into Latin America makes me wonder if you really care about women here.
    .
    3. All groups fight for equality be they gay, black, lesbian, disabled, transgender, female or immigrant. Western societies tend to give these groups better protection under the law. Studies show the glass ceiling still exists though. Most women will accept that maternity is bound to affect the average calculations of course- but studies suggest even if you take account of that, earnings are still effected by gender. That, I hope you would accept, isnt fair.
    .
    Yes earnings are affected by gender – differences in gender behavior, outlook, desires, work ethic, and on and on. When it comes to wage parity, women are smart – they know they have to take on the same nature as men but they don’t want to. Rightly so. But then they also want the workplace and the work style of men to change to accommodate. Is that fair? As I stated before, the ONLY sure way to achieve “equal” pay is for men to be forced to work less outside the home. No one can deny that is true. However, few feminists and especially politicians will make such statements because 1) men would laugh there asses off because they know that they cannot attract women without sufficient earnings 2)feminists would appear to be groveling to men for help and that’s a no no and 3) men vote too.
    .
    4. Now, now, you cant change your tune- you are clearly highly critical of non virginal women. You even changed your country to gain access to these women and advise others to do so too. My point is simply ‘whats good for the goose is good for the gander’. If you want to talk biology then that would promote female experimentation!
    I however I completely agree sexual selection is a private matter that should be respected. Or to put it simply ‘you cant fake a hard on’. Trouble is, and I’m not suggesting your case is like this, is that when men go abroad to pick virignal wives the women are not selecting sexually-they are selecting financially. Now Im not judging these women- everyone has the right for a better life- you only live once BUT if I discovered my SO only wanted me for financial reasons then my relationship to me would be a total sham. I suspect such men are suspending disbelief.
    .
    The US government sent me to Ecuador (thank you Jess for the tax dollars) on a contract, not to find women. I did not want to go at the time. THEN I discovered the women. Would you not want to share your joy with others – to make them aware that what they seek does exist but hidden due to lack of media coverage? Women can do whatever they want and in fact I will help ensure they are not virgins. But when it comes to the last women, its good to know that option exists where wisdom trumps experimentation. If there was a place on Earth where nearly all the men met the long long entitlement list qualities that American women have for a life partner (including the celebration of their sexual past) then I assure you that you would not find one seat on any plane headed there. Yes, women in the US have much greater access to casual sex then men do. Its only fair that men have much greater access to life partners with the qualities they seek. Now that’s equality!
    .
    My wife college educated and is from a middle class family. Kinda buries your feminist influenced propaganda regarding the motives of American men and foreign women. Try, just try to give men more credit and respect for the choices they make.

  • Jess

    1. We shall have to disagree. Time alone will tell I guess
    2. Disgust in someones behaviour usually indicates a violation of an ethical or moral code. I fail to see why enjoying ones time when one is young is such a terrible sin. Particulary as you claim you did so yourself. Good for you.
    3. I would disagree totally about your ‘nature’ comment. Margaret Thatcher was a successful and powerful politician and was renowned for retaining her feminity. Same could be said of Condaleesa Rice and many other female figures. Some jobs are often better fitting for women because of increased empathy and multi tasking skills. They often make great leaders. If a woman wishes to have a career I see no reason for them to be discouraged. If they just want to be homemakers, like my mother, then thats also good. Having said that my mother has recently lamented the lack of a career when she was younger.
    4. I did say I wasnt talking about your particular case. Aslo I am a UK citizen not US. As regrds your plane anology- again possible to prove that one either way- i suppose agree to disagree time. Finally the data on foreign bride dynamic is very well documented. In the US there is the green card problem and then you have the thai bride policing issues. Not to mention sex tourism. On that basis I dont have a huge amount of respect for the choices those men have made of course. Again, to repeat, I’m not talking about your case- I’m sure you have a happy and respectful partnership.

  • TeflonExpat

    2. Disgust in someones behaviour usually indicates a violation of an ethical or moral code. I fail to see why enjoying ones time when one is young is such a terrible sin. Particulary as you claim you did so yourself. Good for you.
    .
    You can garner a feeling of disgust just by looking at a pile of trash or hearing someone belch…nothing to do with morals or ethics. Its a natural human reaction that has yet to be fully understood. There are very many ways to enjoy ones time at any stage in life and none of them has anything to do with sin. Some people do drugs. If I did drugs but later decided that I do not want to marry a woman who did drugs, I should not be shamed for making that choice. Its my business and most people don’t have an issue with that line of thinking. But for some reason, when it comes to sex, most women get all in a lather when that same line of thinking is applied. If a woman is comfortable engaging in the most sharing and intimate of human acts with multiple men based on whatever the attraction du jour is, then she should be equally comfortable with a man rejecting her for marriage due to that behavior, no matter what his reason for that rejection is. He can respect her choices, but yet not be comfortable with them; she should then afford him the same respect for his choices, no matter her discomfort. And of course, she can reject a man for similar reasons, no matter what she did in the past. But alas, women lose all logic over this “issue.” Why is that?
    .
    3. You’re right, women should not be discouraged. In fact they should be encouraged. Equally, men should not be discouraged, but that is the most direct and only sure way that men will become economically ‘”equal” to women.

  • Jess

    2. I think people would regard a drug user who rejected another user because they did drugs as something of a hypocrite-surely? I don’t know any women who lose logic with this nor do I know any women who cannot find men due to slut shaming. I will accept I only visit the USA so I’m no expert but still, I’m not sure that this is an accurate dynamic. In fact the women I have observed over the years shoo are chasten have tremendous difficulty getting men. They seem unhappy, lonely and unfulfilled.
    Just the vibe get.
    3. I hardly think men are being discouraged? Are you referring to quotas…

  • TeflonExpat

    What is wrong with a FORMER drug user rejecting another FORMER drug user? What is wrong with being a hypocrite especially if its a personal decision that affects only the two people in question? In such case, it is absolutely shaming the person by calling them a hypocrite. There are certain groups in US society who label men who reject women based on their sexual behavior as hypocrites. These groups belong to a wave of feminism called Insecurity Feminism or Social Engineering Feminism and its members are attempting to shame men for that line of thinking. It is not working and it will not work.
    .
    You may not know these logic deficient women personally. When it comes to hissy fits over sexual behavior freedom, you can count on the likes of Jaclyn Freidman, Amanda Marcotte and others who desperately want men to change their manner of thinking. But rather than grovel directly to men, they make up terms like slut shaming. What is that anyway? Do you really think a man who rejects a women based on her sexual past is slut shaming? Of course not. He has merely made a personal choice whereby he decided that a particular woman does not qualify as a wife for himself. He is not suggesting that she would not be selecting for marriage by another man. The feminists were caught off guard and are scrambling to change attitudes that have been in existence for thousands of years. They are trying so hard for a reason: most men do not want to marry a woman who has bedded men as if they were competing with actual whores. This is important to feminists because they know women would curb their sexual freedom and look to marry early and potentially sacrifice their careers if men continue to place a high value on a woman’s sexuality. Plus, these feminists HATE that men can determine the sexual behavior of women as though a woman’s decision to bed many men is somehow important to her personal development and this attitude is based solely on the their opinion that she should have “sexual agency” (another wacked feminist term).
    .
    As for men being discouraged: this is actually quite simple, but I will try to explain it another way. If the goal is equal pay (no matter the cost to productivity) then there are two ways to accomplish this fantasy. One is to bring women up to the level of men and that has been the primary objective for the past 30 years – boost up women with subsidies, preferential treatment and a host of other band aid approaches (and no, these are NOT human rights). Guess that aint working too well or at least to the point of not hearing any more whining. The other approach is to bring men down and that has NOT been implemented with any great effort but it would absolutely accomplish the goal (yes, of course it sounds illogical but nothing about wage parity goals are based on logic anyway). So how do you bring men down? well, you can pass a law that forces men to work less – maybe just four days per week, or tax men more and women less. That is, redistribute the hard work and productivity to the less hard working (to the work-life balance cult). But of course feminists are being very very careful in suggesting such measures so as not look like bigger buffoons than they are now. Their tactic is typical: cloak the goal in new terms and make it look like its good for everybody including men and as if men want it also even though very few give a rats ass about work life balance beyond lip service.

  • Jess

    Ah I see. Its Saturday night. You have popped a couple of cold ones and your keyboard has loosened up. Its all coming out now.
    One hardly knows where to begin……….
    a. I have never heard of Insecurity Feminism. I looked them up and they dont have a web site.
    b. Generally hypocrisy is seen as unacceptable so if a degree of shame is present that seems fair enough. It doesnt matter of 2 or 2000 people are effected.
    c. Perhaps its the company I keep but most (at the very least many) men really do not agree with you on this. (by the same token I accept some women may agree with you- possibly SW)
    d. You have oyurself implied severe slut shaming many times. Remeber the disgust comment? You have also strongly implied that other men would be best served avoiding USA sluts and going abroad- that does SL|IGHTLY suggest you are advising other men does it not?
    e. shaming language eh? how does ‘whore’ sound?
    f. slut shaming has indded been around for 1000’s of years as indeed has religion. So has instiutionised child abuse and torture. I for one am glad to see the demise of them all in time.
    g. you seem to imply that men are better than women in the workplace. this is so stupid it makes me assume again you are trolling. I may not be able to shift a pile of bricks as well as you sir, but I bet there are many valuable skills that I beat you one, and likewise there are others that will beat me on. People should be hired due to ability not gender. I could throw gender aptidue data at you, school peformance figures filtered for gender etc but no doubt you will say its skewed to favour girls.
    h. Is your anger about other issues? Were you passe dover for promotion by a female? Have you been cheated on? Was your mother neglectful? Have tried you tried therapy? These are genuine questions… Is there something that you can pin your anger on do you think?

  • TeflonExpat

    No, Insecurity Feminism as a term does not exist. But it pretty much sums it up, along with Social Engineering Feminism.
    .
    If a woman rejects a man for MARRIAGE for ANY reason she so chooses, that is acceptable because its personal. It would be nice if the reverse were true.
    .
    If nearly all marriage-minded women living in a given geographical area have had that “spring break experience” then marriage minded men ignorant of their options who also live there just throw up their hands and accept it.
    .
    I may have disgust for a woman for any reason I choose. That is personal, just as it is for a woman. Your are incorrect, I did not suggest any such thing – I absolutely stated it: men should become aware of all available women, and why not? and given the complaints I read all over the net from men regarding female behavior in the US, I gladly offer a route to where the vast majority of Earth’s women dwell. Does any woman feel shamed by my statements? Of course not. Women in the US are mighty proud of themselves. The only people who should feel shame are the men who just accept the pickings in their region. Too bad for them.
    .
    There are all sorts of new euphemisms applied to women who sell sex. Whore has been around a while. Thankfully, in the US its only a very very small segment of women who engage in this as a business. The business I assume is shrinking. After all, I do not think any college boy today would have to spend money for such services, a couple of drinks notwithstanding. Yes, men do engage in these behaviors as well, albeit it is a much smaller group of men who are bedding the majority of wiling women. And if years later, a woman chooses to reject a man for marriage based on his activities, that is her business and nobody has a right to opine on her way of thinking.
    .
    “slut shaming,” whatever that is, may indeed have been around for thousands of years. I don’t know. And if such shaming ceased, what impact would that have on how a man feels about a woman he is considering for marriage? As I sated above, a man making a personal decision to not marry a woman based on her past sexual activity has been around for a very long time. But this only has to do with men and has no meaningful impact on women, especially US women who do not care one bit. In other words, REGARDING SPOUSE SELECTION what’s the problem?
    .
    I made no such implication regarding men being better than women in the workplace. This is about the ability and willingness to commit to TIME on the job. Women and women’s organizations promote this work-life balance goal and then push it on human resource departments and try to get integrated into corporate cultures. Men are like machines – they will focus on one thing and be happy with it because, well, they can. They may have a wife at home taking care of the kids, they are not so interested in a life outside of work, and on and on. So, as I have said, now for the third time, if “pay equity” is the goal (fantasy) then the ONLY sure way to achieve it is to get men to focus less on work. Does this require more explanation?
    .
    Angry? about what? I live in paradise. Paid for by US taxpayers, many of whom are US women!

  • Mike C

    Women and women’s organizations promote this work-life balance goal and then push it on human resource departments and try to get integrated into corporate cultures. Men are like machines – they will focus on one thing and be happy with it because, well, they can. They may have a wife at home taking care of the kids, they are not so interested in a life outside of work, and on and on. So, as I have said, now for the third time, if “pay equity” is the goal (fantasy) then the ONLY sure way to achieve it is to get men to focus less on work.

    From my perspective, issues of work-life balance are more a generational divide then gender divide. I see a big difference between the views of Gen Xer’s and Gen Yer’s versus Baby Boomers and not so much a difference between male and female. A 25-year old guy probably has a more similar view to a 25-year old woman then a 50-55 year old guy. Frankly, I think the emphasis our culture has historically placed on work is unbalanced and the Mediterranean Europeans and South Americans have a more balanced holistic view about what life is about. When you are on your deathbed, you won’t give 2 shits about the 60-70 hour weeks and will be thinking about your life experiences or lack thereof.

  • Jess

    to Mike,
    sorry I had missed this commen toyu made- YES, yes absolutley spot on-
    There is a massive genrational divide over the concept of work life balance and maternity/paternity rights.
    Often female bosses are MORE demanding of female employees than male ones (espcially if they dont have their children)- becaus ethey hate nay women being seen to shirk due to child care issues.
    Of course, when people moan because a cooleague takes a day of due to a sick child I always remind them that if their mother hadnt had made a few compromises then YOU WOULDNT BE HERE!
    wahts more imoortant than kids? When you are 80 and need your bottom wiped who do you think is going to do it?
    Worklife balance…….mmmmmm…. my deathbed scenes:
    .
    my hamster dying, 1st kiss, 1st day at nursery school, 1st funeral, 1st time I saw a dead body, 1st time I helped deliver a baby, when i met my SO, seeing my parents after my 1st term at uni, realising I was pregnant, my childrens births, 1st time i assisted in the conviction of a violent sex offender, meeting Robbie Williams, saving my neighbours life, having a car crash and nearly a plane crash in same weekend, having my 1st child tell me they loved me (still makes me cry when they do that).
    .Out of that lot only one reference to work and I LOVE my work. Probably because I Have a good work life balance.