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How to Meet a Good Man in a Bar

Is it possible to meet the love of your life in a bar? Of course. Is it easy? No. The odds are not in your favor. Should you bother then? Well, I do know several happy couples who met in a bar. It’s just as legit as meeting someone at a bus stop or baseball game. Random encounters are the fourth most common way that married couples meet (after school, work, and friends of friends).

Going out to bars with friends in hopes of meeting someone new deserves a place in the rotation. However, it should not take up more than 10-20% of your strategic effort. There are many more effective ways of meeting someone you might actually want to date.

There’s nothing wrong with going out to bars and hoping to meet new people. In fact, that’s the primary reason people go out drinking with their friends. Sure, you can have a fun night just hanging out with the girls. Most women who go out drinking with their friends are not really expecting to meet Mr. Right. But they are always alert to the possibility. Let’s not kid ourselves – that’s the motivation for an hour of hair straightening, eyelash curling, smoky eye applying and Spanx tugging.

Why are bars worth including in one’s search for find a mate?

1. They’re packed with singles.

They’re the most reliable locale for finding lots of other singles. There’s really no other place for large numbers of people to congregate in the evening after a busy week. They’re also where you find other folks on a weekend night who don’t have a date.

2. People in bars are generally in the mood for fun and relaxation.

They’ve come to a bar for the express purpose of having a good time, and they’re feeling social. Add a little liquid courage to promote fun and decrease inhibition, and who knows what can happen!

3. It’s good practice.

Getting out and learning to approach strangers, signal attraction, and engage in conversation, i.e. flirt, is very important in any dating strategy, and bars offer almost limitless opportunities for this.

Why are bars generally a terrible place to meet someone?

1. People go there to get wasted and crazy.

Guys are looking to blow off steam and have fun, not hold auditions for the mother of their future children.

2. They’re anonymous.

Especially in large cities, bars see a lot of turnover. There are very few where “everybody knows your name.” You might be chatting up a serial killer or a douchebag. I’ve heard of newlyweds trying to pick up women in bars. People in bars are more likely to behave badly because it’s very easy to disappear afterwards.

3. There are a lot of men who go to bars in search of casual hookups.

In fact, a guy who might be great in a relationship is probably not looking for a girlfriend in a bar. By default, if you’re hanging out in a bar, even minding your own business, there’s a good chance a guy will assume that you’re DTF. It’s very easy to be sized up incorrectly when out drinking with a group of friends.

Guys who feel zero anxiety about approaching women are successful in bars, but they’re also the least likely men to offer commitment.  If a handsome guy approaches you in a bar, he’s probably a cad, so be careful what you wish for.

4. There are a lot of women who go to bars in search of casual hookups.

Girls Gone Wild who like to dance on the table and pull up their shirts for attention congregate in bars. With the steady flow of alcohol (usually preceded by an hour or two of “pregaming”), bars usually contain many very drunk women. If you’re sober or just pleasantly buzzed, you’ll be watching as women make out with strangers, grind on the dance floor, get into physical fights and stumble around. You may even happen upon some chick giving a guy a BJ in the ladies room. In a very real sense, these beauties are your competition for the night.


How do you meet a good man in a bar?

Regardless of whether going out to bars makes sense as a way of meeting new men, most singles do it, so you might as well maximize your opportunities of meeting a good guy. What does that entail?

1. Choose the bar carefully.

If you live in a place with a varied bar scene, then you know that different bars have different vibes and different crowds. Here in Boston, Daisy Buchanan’s is filled with kids under 21 (and a favorite old pickup haunt of John Kerry’s, btw). The Miracle of Science next to MIT is a cozy bar with great burgers. The crowd is generally a grad student/faculty mix. Faneuil Hall has a bunch of rowdy bars where people are routinely kicked out for fighting and being blackout drunk. Allston is where the hipsters hang. Tons of guys hang out in the bars near Fenway. Figure out what kind of guy you’re interested in and then figure out which bar he’s likely to go to. Don’t waste time in bars that are not your scene.

2. Dress to send a message about who you are.

Signal by your mode of dress what your intentions are for the evening. If you’re not looking to go home with a stranger, don’t dress like a hooker.  I’m not suggesting you wear a burqua. The rule of thumb I suggest that women follow is: 1 of 3. The 1 of 3 Rule says that you may highlight one awesome body part when you go out. If you’re lucky enough to have great boobs, bottom and legs, you still only get to show off one thing. In other words, no tight miniskirts with a skimpy shirt. Have you got great legs? Good for you, wear mile high heels and show them off. But pair that mini with a high neckline. If you’re proud of your rack, by all means show some cleavage, but opt for flares instead of leggings. If you’ve done thousands of lunges to get that ass you know turns heads, make that the feature.

You will be more attractive to the right kind of men if you don’t overdo it. Practice the art of subtlety. Men don’t want relationships with women who blatantly seek attention from lots of guys.

3. Consciously signal attraction.

Men looking to get laid like sexually aggressive women for obvious reasons. If  you’re not making a spectacle of yourself, you may feel like an ugly duckling. Remember that you don’t want to waste time catching the eye of a player. Andrew Trees, in his book Decoding Love, lays out a nice summary of what the research shows about getting men to approach.

The short answer: eye contact with a smile. Not surprising, right? What is surprising is the amount of encouragement men need before risking an approach. It’s more than most women would feel comfortable with. According to a study cited by Trees, even making eye contact multiple times had a success rate of only 20% if it wasn’t accompanied by a smile each time. When women added the smile each time they made eye contact, their success rate increased to 60%.

I know one young woman who swears by the practice of staring at a guy until he approaches. She claims her success rate with this strategy is 100%. However, she admits that guys often assume that she’s DTF, and I know for a fact that she’s dated some real jerks.

4. Be aware of body language, and use it.

Most of the communication of sexual attraction is non-verbal, at least initially. What you say with your body speaks volumes about how you feel. Much of the time, we’re hardly aware of the messages we’re sending, but by being tuned in you can communicate attraction with intent. You’ll also be better poised to interpret the body language of others.

Trees cites the work of psychologist Monica Moore, who has catalogued 52 non-verbal signals that women use to draw men’s attention. The top three are:

  • Smile at him broadly
  • Throw him a short, darting glance
  • Dance alone to the music

Despite the fact that men are very visually oriented, Moore’s research has shown that the number of signals a woman sends counts for more than her looks. Women who sent more than 35 signals per hour averaged 4 approaches per hour.

5. Focus on the “reluctant male.”

Researchers coined the term “reluctant male” after Moore determined that 2/3 of the encounters between men and women at a bar are initiated by women. Presumably, this is because men often fail to pick up on the signals women send. They are more obtuse about signals both sent and received, which also explains why they don’t pick up subtle rejection cues well either. And more than 87% of women are willing to initiate.

Biologist Timothy Perper speaks about a “division of romantic effort.” Men take control over physical seduction, but women play a key role in the early stages. He describes 5 stages of interaction leading to courtship success:

  • Approach
  • Talk
  • Turn (Both members of the couple turn their bodies to face one another.)
  • Touch (Usually initiated by the female.)
  • Synchronize (Mirroring one another’s physical movements, voice cadence and eye contact.)

Each one of these stages is an escalation point, and attraction should build with each step.

6. Choose a second encounter wisely.

None of the stages above should be exceeded at the first meeting.

  • Don’t make out in a bar.
  • Don’t prolong the meeting past closing time.
  • If you like a guy, offer your phone number for use at another time.

Why all the strict guidelines? This isn’t The Rules, is it? No, this is not about playing hard to get. This is about giving the attraction time to incubate and build before taking it to the next level.  It also gives you an opportunity to “vet” the guy – does his Facebook page say he’s in a relationship? Is he prepared to expend effort to see you again? (Notice I said expend effort. It is not appropriate to assume that a man should be willing to spend money on you. If he is generous, you should reciprocate. Feminism killed chivalry.) When searching for a relationship partner, you must be careful to weed out any men who are not available or worthy of a relationship.

You must also be worthy of a relationship yourself. Remember, when a man shows interest he won’t know right away whether you go into the short-term box or the long-term box. If you’re looking for a serious relationship, being very selective about sex is one way of ensuring you’re perceived as potential LTR material. Signaling your willingness to have sex immediately with a man you just met says that you are not particularly selective, so there is nothing special about this man. You’re also signaling that there is nothing very special about sex. It’s the fastest route to “one and done.”

In summary, there are three steps to successfully meeting a good man in a bar:

1. Send the right message up front.

2. Be willing to take the initiative with a guy you find attractive.

3. Be merciless in culling players from consideration.

With the right strategy, you can turn a night at a bar into something you’ll tell your kids about someday.

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  • http://thequestfor50.wordpress.com Dagonet

    Why play all these games with “nonverbal cues”? Just go up and say hello to a guy if you really want to talk to him. Guys definitely won’t mind, but I guess that deflates some of his “manliness” since you had to initiate. But if you’re playing these games with eye contact, solo dancing, etc. you are pretty much doing it already.
    I know a lot of girls also use proximity cues. Subtly maneuver yourself so you’re at the bar or outside the bathrooms at the same time. Maybe bump into him physically while waiting for a drink. This type of thing is also useful in passive-aggressively getting the ball rolling, ladies.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    Reminds me of a quote from a comment I read on a financial forum:

    My kids, they’re family.  My wife, she’s just a woman I met at a bar.

    Obviously not a good attitude about marriage…

  • The Deuce

    Good post. I think it’s important to remember that, while bars are generally not great places to find an LTR, it’s not like every single person in there is a cad or a slut. Just about everyone goes to them at one time or another. In fact, they’re possibly the only type of meeting places you can say that about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The Deuce
      Exactly! I think all kinds of guys and most kinds of women go to bars. That’s an opportunity. I wouldn’t make it the centerpiece of any strategy, but there are probably a lot of missed opportunities in bars, as people who are more mild-mannered stand by and watch the shenanigans of extroverts/attention seekers.

  • filrabat

    A lot I can say here, but I’ll focus on things, but I’ll focus on two points under the “How to Get a Good Man in a Bar” heading.
    1. Choose the bar carefully.
    As you no doubt know, I’m hesitant about pick-ups in any social situation where alcohol plays a significant role. BUT…if you just HAVE to go to a bar, then I’d say go to a quiet, off-the-beaten-track establishment where a civilized game of pool is as crazy and exciting as it gets.  The lack of an exciting atmosphere tends to repel the thrill-seekers (of whom the great majority of douches, sluts, snobs, etc. are*).  It also saves you the trobule of talking and listening over loud music and large crowds.  You likely have less competition too.
    Another Hint: If the bar’s talked about a lot among students OR advertised a lot on the radio, chances are very goood this is NOT the kind of place to pick up men.
     
    *Important note: it’s a well-established fact in psychology research that thrill-seeking is a primary component of narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder (formerly called psychopathy), and other “Cluster BPersonality Disorders, as defined in the American Psychiactric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV).   I leave it up to you to determine how significant this tidbit is to hooking up.
    2. Dress to send a message about who you are.
    Definitely agree here.  Put simply, if you don’t want to be seen as a slut, then don’t dress as a slut.  Personally, I’d be even more strict than Susan, especially if you do not want to have sex that night.  I suppose a moderate showing of your shape is ok, but even the parts you are proud of showing, do at least something to hide how good it looks (i.e. keep the breasts looking somewhat hidden or smaller-looking, or don’t wear skirts shorter than 2 in above the knee, etc).  My personal choice for looking somewhat sexy but not blatantly so is to show the neck and part of the collarbone, but that’s just my opinion.  The point is to NOT to dress in any way that provokes more attention from guys than you want, especially if you don’t want them undressing you with their eyes (guys are visually oriented, after all).
     

  • Escarondito

    “You may even happen upon some chick giving a guy a BJ in the ladies room. In a very real sense, these beauties are your competition for the night.”
     
    Susan FTW
     
    Filrabat I sincerely disagree with you. More conservative than what Susan said is crazy. She has it perfect. Not gonna lie the girl who shows it all off is like throwing still warm meat into a lions den, but a girl with tight leggings accentuating just her legs and ass, is like a fine gazelle you want to hunt.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh, Escarondito, I have missed you. You have a way with words – you are very sensual, but also very funny. It must be catnip for the ladies.

  • Mike

    Great post.  A lot of really good info here

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike
      I thought of your working as a bouncer when I wrote this post, and I hoped I was getting it right. I know you have seen a lot of female misbehavior in bars. That led me to think that it is very important for women to clearly differentiate themselves from that mentality when they can.

  • Rum

    An honest effort and well written. But these happy tangential facts do not alter the grim stark realiy that going to a hook-up bar to look for a partner for life is like going to crack-house to find a good baby-sitter.
    I do not hate on people just because they are doomed and desperate. I just cannot bring myself to say that everything is the way it should be just because it is there. 

  • Mike

    @ Susan,
    From the perspective of “how to find a good man” in a bar, I think one key element is to distinguish yourself from the majority of women in the bar.  You really effectively hit on that point in this post.
    It is possible to dress in way that is sexy but not slutty, that is sexy but still classy and to act in way that shows class and sophistication versus immaturity and brazenness.  The “good man” will notice a women like that in a bar because she will stand out in a good way.
    My experience with bars is there are bars for the sort of college, just out college age of 21-24.  Those are places where people often look to get sloppy drunk on the cheap, and then you have more upscale places for 25+.  Again, depends on what you are looking for, but for the 24-28 year old looking for a “good man” for a potential relationship I would stick to higher class places with a somewhat older age demographic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      for the 24-28 year old looking for a “good man” for a potential relationship I would stick to higher class places with a somewhat older age demographic.

      Actually, this is a good call for the 21-23 year olds too, if they are interested in a relationship and don’t want to waste their early 20s on knuckleheads. Some of the guys in those upscale bars were getting sloppy drunk just 3 years earlier. This is probably the biggest mistake women make. They go out to bars full of guys who just want fun with no strings.

  • http://gameformarriage.blogspot.com/ Augustine DeCarthage

    Susan,
    One of the things I loved most about Game was learning Indicators of Interest.  As a guy, I just didn’t get it naturally, just as it doesn’t come naturally to most guys.  I think that one of the problems for men and women to form relationships that lead to marriage is a lack of signaling system.  In older forms of courtship, there were common signals or actions that had generally agreed upon meanings.  Today, it is chaotic.
    Some women are chaste, some women are on the carousel, and some are elsewhere along the continuum.  Just about all women want to be married, if not soon, then at some point in their lives.  Just about all women think of themselves as marriage material.   I think most people have a pretty good idea about how a woman signals that she is sexually attractive, i.e. fuckable.  But how does a woman, how should a woman, signal that she has high marriage value?  Just about all women will want to signal that, but it seems that the women interested in marriage sooner rather than later and those who are chaste would have a huge interest in signaling that more strongly in order to put them at a competitive advantage versus the carousel crew.
    I like the 1 in 3 rule.  I’m not sure how else women could signal that they’re good marriage material.  I think that in addition to showing an appropriately demure fuckability (which, let’s face it, is essential), she would also have to signal sweetness and generosity of spirit.  I’m sure that can be tough for a woman because it makes her vulnerable.
    Girls signal to get male attention.  Most male attention comes from players who are out to sport fuck.  Therefore, most of the signaling is driven by what the players like and respond to.  Lots of signaling goes to waste because the receiver is too obtuse to decode the signal or worse, he doesn’t know how to respond (because almost every previous attempt in his life has ended in failure).
    I don’t know the answer, but I’m curious what the HUS crew thinks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Augustine

      In older forms of courtship, there were common signals or actions that had generally agreed upon meanings.

      This is key, I think. There’s no script anymore – which has led to most people applying the Principle of Least Interest. “Just in case I’m imagining that you are signaling attraction, I’m going to pretend I don’t notice. If you really mean it, you’ll put it out there really clearly.” And the other person is thinking, “Wow, I was just really obvious in my flirting and got shot down.” I’m convinced that there are many great potential relationships that never get started because we’re so good at pretending indifference. And that’s in addition to the natural biological difference that makes it necessary for women to indicate interest clearly and repeatedly in order for a guy to receive the message.
      .
      I found it fascinating that the women who get approached most are the ones who signal most. This confirms something I hear all the time from women – the best looking ones do not get approached, while their less attractive friends do. I’ve always figured that the guys were intimidated, and I know Game suggests approaching the less attractive woman first – and perhaps those effects are real. But it may be that the best looking woman stands still and avoids looking around and sending signals. She makes herself unapproachable. Meanwhile, her so-so friend is staring at guys for 3 minutes straight, flipping her hair, exposing her neck, etc. and guys wind up competing for her attention.
      .
      P.S. Thanks for the link!

  • Mike

    Oh….and by the way…if you want to know how to NOT find a good man in the bar watch the Jersey Shore episode that was on tonight or just about any episode and copy the girls they bring back to “get it in”.  I have to admit Pauly D is one cool cat.  Dude knows how to run good game that is sort of understated and less obnoxious then the Situation.
    .
    Some good examples there of how to dress if you want to come across as a total DTF skank.

  • Rum

    This HUS crewmember says that serious minded, hot young woman should hope most of all to meet that one in 10 million guy in the atria of St Peters Bascilica in Rome. Something intimate to  talk about would be laid down for the next 30 years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum
      Actually, I think that’s a pretty good idea. I really do.

  • Matt T

    @Mike:
    Lol at the Jersey Shore episode, but it’s interesting that, as of late, the girls don’t seem to be boning Situation and Pauly D. The reason for this? Situation is probably the laziest player on the planet. Before, all he used to do was flash his abs and say “Let’s go to the crib” or some inane phrase. Now, he doesn’t even bother flashing his abs. If you were to analyze Situation from the context of Game: before, Situation could build a great deal of Attraction using his abs to DHV, but since he didn’t build any Comfort, he got flaked on left and right. Now, he barely even bothers building Attraction, so of course he’s gonna get flaked on.
     
    @Susan:
    Good article, but there’s nothing wrong with making out with a dude you met in a bar as long as it’s not in the first 10 minutes or so. Sure, if you blow him in the bathroom, he’s gonna think of you as the dirty bar nympho, but a kiss after a good conversation will encourage him to call you, as he’s more likely to think of the number you give him as a solid one rather than a flake.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      a kiss after a good conversation will encourage him to call you, as he’s more likely to think of the number you give him as a solid one rather than a flake.

      I think it depends on the kind of kiss. My favorite Mystery move of all time is when he is getting ready to make an exit, and he touches his finger to his cheek and says “kiss here” to the woman. That will definitely leave her wanting more. I agree that there’s also nothing wrong with a real kiss after a true connection has been made. But many women go to bars and make out drunkenly on the dance floor, or start getting hot and heavy up against the bar. That kind of PDA is just tacky, and I think a guy who’s got his tongue down some girl’s throat at a bar is going to be expecting late night action.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Drink something classy.
    If he asks you what you’re having, don’t jump for what the rest of the she-rabble are drinking.  It’s always cool when an attractive woman has a signature cocktail.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Drink something classy.

      Ah, I missed that one. A lot of young women take shots in bars, throwing their heads back and gulping it down. It’s not a good look and it has to be sending the signal that the woman is trying to get drunk asap. Why? Because she needs to get wasted to hook up with a stranger, of course. Part of this is generational – people buy rounds of shots for one another – but I don’t see why one couldn’t request a different drink – to sip.

  • Badger Nation

    I’d boil Susan’s advice down to three points, based on the premise that you (the girl) is actually open to a real person, not just looking for entertainment and fantasy like so many bar-hoppers are.
     
    1. Pick environs that are conducive to real conversation and not attention-seeking showoffs. If it is difficult to see, hear, talk, use the bathroom or order another drink, you are not at a place that facilitates normal socialization; only attention-seekers will be noticed here. This suggests pubs (coffee shops with alcohol), and eliminates nightclubs. I solve this issue with places that serve wine and a good beer selection…Bud Light bars are sorostitute havens.
     
    2. Be very conscious of the social signals you are giving off. Dress is obviously a huge one (be modest-to-classy, more than that and you look slutty or try-hard) along with how you arrange yourself in a group. If you are in a six-girl wagon circle, you’ll only get approaches from the most balls-out confident or jaded players. That’s not what you want.
     
    Keep good company and manners – if someone in your group delivers a pyrotechnic rejection to somebody (attention-seeking btw), or you are seen cutting a guy in the drink line, don’t expect approaches from any decent guys the rest of the night. If you are seen initiating conversation with a guy, expect other guys to feel you are approach-worthy.
     
    Avoid sh**-testing and other overt challenges. Don’t ask guys to buy you drinks as some kind of double-bind test of his attraction and/or social smoothness. Decline drinks from guys you are not interested in (guys will see you take the drink and leave and up their asshole game in kind). Take drinks from guys you are interested in and show gratitude (you don’t owe him for his gift, but being thankful costs nothing).
     
    3. Be very conscious of the social tactics you respond to. If you respond to attention-seeking behaviors or crude PUA game, you’ll get more of that, and get no attention from guys who aren’t like that. If you are polite and open to men who simply say “hi,” you’ll see their best side, not an intimidated betatude nor cooked-up game.
     
    This also goes for excessive politeness – if you are talking to a dude you’ve decided you aren’t interested in, escape the conversation. There are fifty ways to do this without being bitchy, dishonest or rude. He doesn’t deserve to be led on and it’s opportunity cost for you.
     
    Susan is right to write the post, since sooo many young people will socialize in bars even if they are not on the carousel or looking for some pump and dump. A few years back I took a friend to a bar to watch a playoff game. She (unbeknowst to me) chose for us to sit near a guy who looked good and was wearing our team’s colors. They went home with each other that night. They’re about to get married and make a great couple. Another friend was opened by a guy at abar with the words “what’s up.” They are happily married. So never say never – trust but verify.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Pick environs that are conducive to real conversation

      Yes, this is important. Not only so that you can be heard, but because they will draw a less narcissistic crowd. A woman who wants to be noticed will go to a bar with music where she can dance and parade. And the players will go there to supply that validation in exchange for sex. Loud, raucous bars are more likely to be meat markets.

      If you are in a six-girl wagon circle, you’ll only get approaches from the most balls-out confident or jaded players.

      This is a real problem. I’ve read articles that advise women to go out alone, which is obviously not going to happen. Smaller groups are more approachable, but people tend to think “the more the merrier” when it comes to going out on the town. If a woman sees someone she finds attractive, she should probably split off, at least temporarily, with a “wing,” and signal. It’s just common sense, but I fear that most women will find this too calculating and contrived. The women most likely to do it are also the ones most likely to be looking for the quick hookup.
      .
      Cosign everything you say about drinks. Personally, I think it’s appropriate to get the next round if you’re hitting it off with someone. At the very least, he’ll appreciate the offer if it’s genuine.
      .
      As for the what’s up opener, that’s not so bad. I read one account of a guy boasting to a girl in a bar that he’d gotten an internship on Wall St. with Golden Snacks.

  • Escarondito

    Oh Susan, I still observe far above the fray.

    I’m working on my god complex. ;)

  • J

    The 1 of 3 rule rocks!  I’d even advocate the .75 of 3 rule.  If you choose to show cleavage,  just show a hint of it.  Wear body-skimming clothes, not skin-tight clothes.  Skirt-wise, don’t go shorter than a few inches above the knee.  It’s better to hint at your assets than put them on full display.  Men respond first to what you show them first.  If you want a guy to see tits, then show them.  If you want a guy to see you as a complete person, don’t distract him with tits.  Men have a very hard time moving past first impressions.  If you present yourself first as a great pair of tits, its very hard to backpedal towards complete human being.

    As I’ve said here before, I met my husband after being dragged into a club to attend a friend of a friend’s birthday party.  What attracted him was that I was dressed modestly, didn’t have a history of hanging out in that bar, and looked angry about having to be  there that night. 

    I’ll add though that I think meeting my husband in a bar was a fluke.  It was kismet.  He was the only guy that I meet in a bar that I actually dated.  Most men I meet in bars, I ended up rebuffing because they just wanted to get laid.  Just being in that enviornment can change an otherwise nice guy into a pig because they assume that you came to the club for sex.

    Environment matters.  Ever notice that even the roughiest of CR regulars dial it back here?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What attracted him was that I was dressed modestly, didn’t have a history of hanging out in that bar, and looked angry about having to be there that night.

      HAHA! So he knew what he was getting into from the start!

      Ever notice that even the roughiest of CR regulars dial it back here?

      I’m not a regular Roissy reader, but occasionally a reader will alert me to a post and I always read the comments. Once I was absolutely shocked to find that some of my favorite sweet and polite guy commenters had a completely different persona there! It made me really appreciate how civil people are here. Even though we’ve been a bit short on women in the comments lately, it’s clearly a dialogue among mixed company. Whatever the reason, I’m grateful.

  • OffTheCuff

    The short answer: eye contact with a smile.

    Yes, this absolutely will work, because it never happens to us. It’s so rare, that even a person who doesn’t want to date you will probably be happy to just talk to you. You don’t even have to smile, a tiny smirk will work just as well — anything other than a total blank face. You can even avert the gaze with a smirk, we’ll catch that.
    We live in fear of harassment and rape accusations today. If you briefly look at us with no smile or avert immediately, we will assume you think we are disgusting or creepy.
    A blank stare with no expression means “shield is up, do not approach”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A blank stare with no expression means “shield is up, do not approach”.

      Whoa! I had no idea! If this is true, I don’t think women realize it. Staring without a smile is just easier – less risky – and I think women believe it comes across as sultry. It sounds like the staring is actually counterproductive when not accompanied by a smile.

  • J

    Great post Bagder!  A few caveats though:

    If you are in a six-girl wagon circle, you’ll only get approaches from the most balls-out confident or jaded players. That’s not what you want.  

    That’s true, but isn’t there safety in numbers?

    If you are seen initiating conversation with a guy, expect other guys to feel you are approach-worthy.

    Or taken.

    Don’t ask guys to buy you drinks as some kind of double-bind test of his attraction and/or social smoothness. Decline drinks from guys you are not interested in (guys will see you take the drink and leave and up their asshole game in kind). Take drinks from guys you are interested in and show gratitude (you don’t owe him for his gift, but being thankful costs nothing).

    I’ll go you one better.  Ladies, order a soft drink and sit down.  When a guy asks if he can buy you drink, politely decline as you already have one but ask him to join you anyway.   If you don’t like, you can brush him off without him entitled to anything.

    Fianlly, a woman should NEVER have more than one or two alcoholic drinks in a public place.  She need s to have her wits about her and be sober enough to drive at any time should she need to make a quick escape.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Fianlly, a woman should NEVER have more than one or two alcoholic drinks in a public place. She need s to have her wits about her and be sober enough to drive at any time should she need to make a quick escape.

      This may be good advice but it’s not realistic. One good thing is that young people today really do not drink and drive. They take cabs or public transportation everywhere. Of course, if you’re not in a city that’s a whole different story…

  • J

    @OTC

    We live in fear of harassment and rape accusations today.

    That seems extreme to me.  Conscious of the possibility, OK.  Constant fear?  That’s like a woman saying,  “I live in constant fear of being raped.”  It’s not realistic.

    If you briefly look at us with no smile or avert immediately, we will assume you think we are disgusting or creepy.

    Or maybe just that we are taken, not interested, or having a bad day.  I once had a guy come up to me at work shortly after I returned from having a GYN surgery to say that he’d never seen me smile until that day.   I explained that this was probably the first time he had seen me either not in pain or not recovering from a miscarriage.  He was surprised it wasn’t about him.

  • J

    @Esca

    We travel in packs for a number of reasons:

    One or two women might desert you in the course of a night–which really used to piss me off, BTW.  If there are a few extras, you still have back-up. 

    Someone might get drunk and need to be handled physically.  We need numbers to compensate for less upper body strength.  (This is rare, though.)

    Although a bar is not a battlefield, it can be a dangerous place.  You never know when you will encounter that angry drunk or even a rapist who will stalk you on your way home. ( Obviously, most men are not rapists, but close calls are not uncommon.  I was once followed off the freeway by a suspicious looking guy.  I attempted unsucessfully to lose him several times.  When it became clear that he was indeed trying to follow me home, I drove to the police station.  He sped off.) 

  • dragnet

    “Environment matters.  Ever notice that even the roughiest of CR regulars dial it back here?”
     
    “Once I was absolutely shocked to find that some of my favorite sweet and polite guy commenters had a completely different persona there!”
     

    Guilty as charged…although I must say there are times when I’m not terribly polite here :-)
    Environment totally matters. For instance, I’m less likely to use foul language in real life if there are women present. It is what it is.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    One or two women might desert you in the course of a night–which really used to piss me off, BTW.  If there are a few extras, you still have back-up.

    I’ll add that women should never desert their friends to hang with a strange guy. From Natalee Holloway to a UVM student who walked to her car alone after leaving a bar at closing, women are extremely vulnerable to violence. The cutest guy in the world who you just spent 2 hours talking intimately with is still a stranger. Don’t leave a friend to fend for herself, and don’t let any friend go off alone.

  • J

    @Bagder

    Another friend was opened by a guy at abar with the words “what’s up.” They are happily married.

    My husband’s stunning pick line that night was, “Hi, I’m Bill.  Simplicity works.

    So never say never – trust but verify

    Great advice.

  • OffTheCuff

    J: No, I’m not overstating it. Feelings can be separate from what we logically know the actual risks are. When you are raised with constant negative messages about of flirting — rape/harassment PSAs, church, warnings from school administrators, “sensitivity training” the list goes on and on and on… and those are not balanced by an equal or greater amount of positive messages, men can develop a sense that approaching women with the intent of romance, let alone sex, is illegal. You might just be having a bad day, but the effect is the same — “Do. Not. Talk. To. Me.”
    Susan: A short blank stare when passing a man means “go away”. A longer blank stare is just confusing: stalker/creepy, or is there a scorpion on my shoulder? (Think of a guy leering at you with nothing else on his face, creepy right?) Also, no-smile doesn’t mean no-expression, you have eyebrows, lips, eyes, etc. Any of those can make eye contact non-threatening, or even inviting. But the smirk is by far the best.

  • Escarondito

    That’s true, but isn’t there safety in numbers?

    Always wondered why girls did this. You’re in a bar, not a dark alley or battle field. Branch off in 3 pairs and hunt for your man. You still got your girl with you.

    I think girls need to learn the advantage of wingwomen.

  • Badger Nation

    J,
     
    “but isn’t there safety in numbers?”
     
    There is, but “safety in numbers” from the moment you walk in the door is a defensive attitude, which is easily read by body language and produces avoidance by the good men (and doesn’t deter the players you don’t want).
     
    More likely, I see women clumping together out of social insecurity and not physical danger – they can’t bear the thought of being left in a group of strangers to commingle. They set up a defensive posture, then go home upset (or confused) that nobody talked to them.
     
    These may or may not be the same type of women who want men to assume all the risk – “well if he REALLY liked me and was a REAL MAN he’d approach me even if I was with six of my friends!”
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      More likely, I see women clumping together out of social insecurity and not physical danger – they can’t bear the thought of being left in a group of strangers to commingle. They set up a defensive posture, then go home upset (or confused) that nobody talked to them.

      It absolutely is social insecurity. Women have been doing this since their first 7th grade dance. Just like they always go to the ladies room in pairs. I imagine they do look defensive, even wary. And you’re right – women frequently complain about being ignored in a bar.

      These may or may not be the same type of women who want men to assume all the risk – “well if he REALLY liked me and was a REAL MAN he’d approach me even if I was with six of my friends!”

      Frankly, I think most women are relieved when men assume the risk, and nearly all prefer it. Certainly the more traditionally minded women do. That’s why I said that I’m afraid that the only women willing to actively signal attraction with repeated stares and smiles are sexually aggressive women to begin with.
      .
      Actually blaming the guy, though – that’s a minority of women, I think. Mostly women just assume they’re not attractive or there’s something wrong with them. Again, it comes back to the issue of entitlement. Those Holmes sisters are unlikely to think they lack appeal – they’re obviously in the habit of blaming the men.

  • Badger Nation

    One thing that has not been mentioned is that this entire discussion assumes a woman is actually looking for a good partner mate – not just maximizing the typical triad of social dominance, physical attractiveness and financial/occupational flash.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One thing that has not been mentioned is that this entire discussion assumes a woman is actually looking for a good partner mate

      True. I wrote the post for women looking for a “good man.” Readers know by this time what I mean by that. However, your point is well taken. There are always women who believe that the Tom Brady look-alike who saunters over and negs them will be introducing them to Mom soon. That why I said in the post to be careful what you wish for – a guy like that in a bar is almost certainly playing the field. Nothing wrong with that, but women who want commitment need to learn the signs and cull those guys. Of course, you could still get it totally wrong. A woman might signal her attraction to a guy, not knowing that she is initiating with the biggest cad in the bar. It’s not easy to discern someone’s character after observing them briefly, unless they’re actively misbehaving.

  • J

    Oh wow, Esca, I just realized how old I am and how in the past tense I’m speaking. 

    My barhopping days are long over.  When I was newlywed, cell phones were huge and carried in their own separate shoulder bag.  No one texted.  A few rich girls had car phones.    You’re right.  It is somewhat safer now, or at least the dangers are different.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J
      We recently watched the first Wall St. movie in anticipation of seeing the new one. Honestly, the fashions and technology were hilarious. CRTs with lime green print on a black screen, cell phones as big as a toaster. When I was at b-school in the 80s we had to submit card decks to be run through the computer – there were no PCs!

  • Escarondito

    @J

    Oh no. I understand not completely coming alone. But…hold on, let me do this properly:

    “One or two women might desert you in the course of a night–which really used to piss me off, BTW.  If there are a few extras, you still have back-up.  ”

    For these responses assume you have six girls you’re crewing with tonight.

    1) I never said only go in with two people. I meant, you 6 go in, grab a drink, then split off in pairs around the club.

    2) If one of any pairs bounce because of a bad night, or getting their little pickle tickled, she can join up with another pair. You’re back to safety in numbers, and the guys you’re with will not turn down more women.

    “Someone might get drunk and need to be handled physically.  We need numbers to compensate for less upper body strength.  (This is rare, though.)”

    1) Girls are text machines. If one of your girlfriends won’t answer you text saying, “We’re in the bathroom, Sara’s giving head to the turd tunnel, we need help getting her out of here”. She is not a friend.

    2) If a guy tries to get at you physically, I don’t know what man in his right mind would not push that guy away from trying to do things to you. I don’t know what bar or club wouldn’t have bouncers ready for that. I’m not sure how this has ever happened to you, if male physical harrasment is what you mean. Either way you already mentioned this is an exception and not the normal way.

    “Although a bar is not a battlefield, it can be a dangerous place.  You never know when you will encounter that angry drunk or even a rapist who will stalk you on your way home. ”

    1) See: #2 above.

    2) Now I assume you all went with your own cars or the same car. And assuming that, I hope you all parked near each other. Because if it’s the same car, you are already all together. If it is different cars, walk in depleting numbers to the farthest away person, then back to the pack (I hope you get what I mean by that).

    3) That story is fucked up. I advocate calling the cops while you’re driving *slowly* so they can catch him while he’s following. That shit shouldn’t get away that easily. Glad you are safe though.

  • Hope

    I’ve never met anyone in a bar, never went to them except for work functions (often lunch), and never had a drink in a bar either (that wasn’t either water or diet soda). That said, I have had random guys follow me, strike up conversations, etc. on the street and in stores. Even in broad daylight, it’s very off-putting.

    I didn’t “go out” alone after dark at all, but in a northern city during winter time, oftentimes my commute home from work was after dark, when sunset would be much earlier. The public train could be rather scary then. Dressing conservatively was key, which was not difficult given the cold weather in the winter. I also definitely gave off no “talk to me” vibes.

    I tend to find a man being too assertive and hitting on a strange woman aggressively as creepy, rather than if he was quiet and not bothering me. This is why I could never understand the “alpha” designation given to those sorts of guys at bars.

  • Badger Nation

    “It absolutely is social insecurity. Women have been doing this since their first 7th grade dance. Just like they always go to the ladies room in pairs. I imagine they do look defensive, even wary. And you’re right – women frequently complain about being ignored in a bar.”
     
    It blows my mind that for all the talk about how women are socially savvier than men and mature socially before men, social anxiety is apparently the chief operating principle for young women from ages 7 through 26. Young women I talk to seem to have zero idea of how they come across to other people, particularly men, and a lack of ability to empathize with men when it is explained how men view their social signals differently than they (the girls) expect.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Young women I talk to seem to have zero idea of how they come across to other people, particularly men, and a lack of ability to empathize with men when it is explained how men view their social signals differently than they (the girls) expect.

      I suspect that lack of empathy is the key here – and women who demonstrate it in one area probably are guilty of it in all their relationships. I would point out though – just as men feel they’ve been lied to about what women want, which has led them to display all kinds of unhelpful behaviors – women too grow up expecting a dominant man to fall in love with them as if by magic, thanks to that junk culture mentioned earlier. And it’s not just junk culture – Shakespeare and the Brothers Grimm have made their contributions, along with many others. The idea of initiating or even pursuing a strategy to meet a good partner is unwelcome to most women. One of the things I feel best about is when readers let me know that they have taken specific steps to avoid certain guys/behaviors and seek out others. It’s not a fast and easy process, and the only women who will do it are those who already realize at 19 that they don’t want to squander their 20s. The only good news is that the current SMP allows cads to be themselves, so a woman who is paying attention need not be ensnared by them (unless that’s her goal, ugh).

  • J

    @SW

    You should see my kids when theysee the old green and black screen monitors on TV.  They go into hysterics….Or better yet, the communicators on the original Star Trek that looked like flip-open cell phones.  When I still had one, my sons would fight over it and run around asking to be beamed up.  The idea that my oudated basic cellphone was once considered “futuristic” is pee your pants funny to them.  And pics of mom and dad in 80′s…oh, the humiliation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J
      There is a very funny little book out right now called Awkward Family Photos. I gave it to my dad last Father’s Day. Most of the pics were taken in the 70s-80s and it’s hard to read it without squirming in embarrassment. It’s very funny though.

  • Clarence

    Susan @ 1:55
    Re: computers. Warning, geek history post.
    My brother works at the local landfill and recycling center. We have Commodore 64′s from 1982 that still work. One is set up in the basement play room.
    I don’t know how much you know about the 64 but it was the best selling single computer model of all time. Not the best selling brand (that would be Dell or HP I believe), but model. I’ve seen numbers in the 20 to 30 million range and they made em all the way from 1982 to 1991 by which time they were of course terribly cheap and terribly outdated. How many other 8 bit computers can say that? None.
    They made a primative graphical windows type operating system for it,  in 1985 or 86. It was called GEOS and yes, you would move around your screen with a mouse. It was on a Commodore 64 that I first used a mouse, I didn’t use an IBM PC until I had a computer applications course in college in the 1994.  I did a term paper using GEOS, and an old dot matrix printer. The 64 was also known for having the first real sound chip in a home computer (note CHIP, not sound CARD, those are much more sophisticated) and could even do primative voice synthesis.
    Anyway, that particular 8 bit could do things you wouldn’t believe. Microsoft even made a version of the predeccessor of Excel for it. It was a program called Multiplan.
    People still play around with it , 25 years plus later. Here’s a link to a Guitar Hero on the Commodore 64.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyCMM6e1Lbo
    And in the rare case that you are interested in the rest of that, here’s part two
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52gcC3Sn-Gw&feature=related
    Amazing the dang thing is less than one millionth as powerful as the typical cheap desk top computer today in some ways, yet look what can be done with a geek and even simple equipment :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Clarence
      It’s the modern day equivalent of tinkering with old cars! I imagine there’s something very satisfying about that. One of my worst job memories happened using the best spreadsheet software available in the mid-80s: Lotus 1-2-3. It required hitting a Recalc button every time you changed a number – it didn’t automatically adjust totals. I was evaluating an acquisition candidate for the company I worked for, and was given the opportunity to deliver the slide presentation myself to the CEO (this was before Power Point, of course). The slides laid out very simple financial projections, though they were derived from complicated Lotus spreadsheets. The morning of the presentation I sat up in bed at 3am. I shook my husband awake and said, “I forgot to hit Recalc!” I climbed out of bed, took a cab to the office, and fired up that early IBM PC. Sure enough, one of the totals in the slides was incorrect. The components above the line were all OK, but the sum was off by several million. I had two choices: I could fess up and cancel the meeting – having the slide changed meant going to the printmaker and having a new slide made – something there was no time for. Or I could make the presentation hoping that neither the CEO or anyone else would notice, and knowing that if they did I’d be fired. I went ahead and gave it, heart pounding, and no one noticed. All the CEO wanted from me was to answer yay or nay on “do we acquire?” Fortunately, the error didn’t change that decision. Whew. That was computing in the town of Bedrock.

  • J

    @Clarence

    The Commodore 64!  The Model T of computers!  Those were the days.

    Can my husband come and play in your basement?

  • Clarence

    J:
    Arguably the original Apple 1 from 1977 was the “Model T” of personal computers as it was the first one you didn’t have to put together yourself. On the other hand, while it sold well compare to a few thousand kits, it never reached one million in sales. Two others I could think of were the original IBM PC of 1981 because while it was really too expensive for home use, it brought prestige to the personal computer industry and almost directly led to the automation of cubicles and offices nationwide (though it’s a bit more complicated than that – Apple had multicalc which was the first commercially successful spreadsheet) or perhaps the Apple Macintosh of 1984 which brought the Window based OS and mouse system which it had got from Xerox and perfected in the far more expensive Apple Lisa to the masses and thus made computers much easier to use for the lay public.
    The first home computer to sell a million plus units was the Commodore 64′s little brother, the Commodore Vic 20 .  This possibly should be considered too. By the way, my first computer when I was 11 was a Vic 20, it was Linus Torvalds first computer (guy who invented Linux), and it had some horrible old commercials in the early 80′s starring William Shatner aka “Captain Kirk” of Star Trek fame.
    Still, in terms of price and units sold you could make a case for the 64.

  • Clarence

    J:
    Two important things.
    Is your husband a cool guy? And can he get to Baltimore, MD?
    :)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Old movies…I just watched “The High and the Mighty,” a 1954 movie about an airliner  enroute from Hawaii to SF with engine and fuel problems. Main things that struck me were the social changes: for one thing, a kid was playing with a realistic-looking cap pistol both in the terminal and on the airplane.  Wouldn’t advise *that* today. And everyone was smoking, of course. And the women were portrayed as slightly more hysterical than the men; indeed, one of them was getting hysterical even *before* the problem with the plane manifested itself, because with the honeymoon over, she was worried about whether her husband & herself were ready to face the big bad world.
    Technologically speaking, the plane was a DC-4, with about 21 passengers and FOUR flight-crew members plus the stewardess. Think about the economics of *that* for a moment…

  • J

    @Clarence

    Extremely and not easily. ;–)

  • Kurt

    I agree with what you wrote.  Sometimes women meet guys at bars, making sexually suggestive comments to the men (without prompting from the men), hook up with the men and then wonder why those guys don’t want to pursue a relationship.  Guys aren’t stupid and don’t want a serious relationship with a woman who seems to quickly and easily have sex with guys she literally just met.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Clarence…there’s a woman named Jeri Ellsworth, who learned programming on a C64.  After dropping out of high school and designing/building custom race cars, she decided, circa 2000,  to create a C64 emulator for the nostalgia market. The production version of this sold half a million units. I wrote a post about her several years ago: http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_archive.html#110364416000141861 – a new old product.
    America needs more Jeri Ellsworths.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    About the six girl posse -
    I knew a girl in college – they called her the living Barbie doll.  Blonde, blue-eyed, perfect silhouette, everything in its place.  Dozens of girls vied for the position of her “best friend”,  as the ones she threw back were better than they could pull on their own, and all the more vulnerable for having been thrown back into the pool.
    Interestingly, she chose two girls for her constant companions.  One was a Venezuelan pageant runner-up whose dark beauty contrasted with “Barbie”‘s Nordic features in a way that men found irresistible.  The other friend was a soft-edged Irish brunette with a splash of freckles and a fun sense of humor.
    I don’t advocate picking your friends as fashion accessories.  “Barbie” had a calculating edge to her, but all three women married early and well.
    Two or three women is a good, approachable group.

  • Esau

    OffTheCuff: “When you are raised with constant negative messages about of flirting — rape/harassment PSAs, church, warnings from school administrators, “sensitivity training” the list goes on and on and on… and those are not balanced by an equal or greater amount of positive messages, men can develop a sense that approaching women with the intent of romance, let alone sex, is illegal. You might just be having a bad day, but the effect is the same — “Do. Not. Talk. To. Me.””
    .
    OTC is really on the beam here, and it’s surprising — but important! — to hear that women don’t appreciate this point.  It cannot be overstated, IMO, how much the “rape culture”-culture propagated by feminism burns into some/many men, from a very young age, the idea that we are evil just for existing and wanting sex.  It’s as though maleness is an original sin!  and men, but not women, start life as fallen creatures, guilty until allowed otherwise.
    .
    I assure you, OTC does not exaggerate with the word “illegal”.  It captures perfectly the feeling drilled into so many young men, that making an advance that turns out to be unwelcome is not just a mistake or an accident or a mismatch: it’s an assault, a violation, a kind of crime.  This is exactly the sentiment embodied in sexual harassment rules, and it’s silly to think that the attitude which spawned those rules doesn’t also operate on nights and weekends.
    .
    Of course, the young man who absorbs the “maleness as original sin” idea and wants to do the right thing will _not_ tend to display the kind of behavior that women will find attractive.  Believing that expressing your desire is basically an affront rather than a compliment makes it hard to act with confidence!  And yet, that’s exactly the notion that women enforce: in the entitled, feminist-minded era it’s considered OK to turn men down rudely.  It’s not “No, but thanks for asking!” any more, it’s now “No! and how dare you even approach me if I don’t want it!”  I think this is a real generational change from a pre-feminist era, and it’s not doing anyone much good.
    .
    And, who suffers the worst from this effect?  It’s exactly the decent, rule-following men of conscience who listened to what polite society told them.  Their betatude is baked in, so to speak, and so requires a great deal of un-learning (as many have testified to right on this blog).  This is something I think women should really reflect on, what the effect will be for them, for their own lives, as a result of men being told that they’re evil at base simply for wanting sex, that their desire is a crime by default.  The natural result is to filter men into two groups: those who don’t care what others think, and those who feel guilty just for being male.  Neither one is likely what women are looking for!  but paradoxically this is the situation that women themselves have created.
    .
    Lastly, I’d like to put in a good word for sluts, if I may, which goes back to OTC’s phrase “balanced by an equal or greater amount of positive messages”. There’s been an ongoing complaint about men, including decent and/or beta-ish men, turning their attention toward the obviously slutty and brazen woman while passing up the more substantive Plain Jane.  I’m not denying that this happens, but want to point up a reason for it that is likely overlooked.  The standard complaint is that men will incline toward sluts simply as a way of raising their odds for sex, or getting it with less work, and this reveals men’s essential shallowness.  And there may certainly be some truth to that, particularly for caddish men.  But there’s a whole other reason why decent and/or beta-ish men might also lean toward sluts, even if their odds with them are still quite low, which is simply this: by her attitude, the slut does not condemn a man for the act of wanting sex.  She might not want to do it with some particular man, but her whole orientation is that sex is good! and of course there’s nothing wrong with wanting some.  Even if he doesn’t get laid in the end, you can well imagine how much of a relief it is for a young man to spend even a little time _not_ being told that he’s evil in his basic desire.

    The solution, then, as it were, for Plain Jane is this: without becoming a full-frontal slut, you need to find a way to communicate to men that you don’t think they are evil by default simply for having normal desires.  And, she can’t do this passively: Plain Jane suffers an unfortunate preconception, one which might be unfair but she has to actively surmount nonetheless.  Simply by being intelligent and reserved, Plain Jane comes across as being part of that same polite society which condemned men from birth; and the burden is now on her to demonstrate that she doesn’t believe that, to actively deliver the balancing, positive message that OTC refers to.  If PJ can’t do that, then she shouldn’t be surprised to see even the most decent men turn toward affirmative sluts instead.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Simply by being intelligent and reserved, Plain Jane comes across as being part of that same polite society which condemned men from birth; and the burden is now on her to demonstrate that she doesn’t believe that, to actively deliver the balancing, positive message that OTC refers to.

      Interesting – this dovetails quite nicely with the comment that women who look at men in a bar without a smile may be interpreted as signaling that they find that man objectionable or creepy in some way. I spent yesterday afternoon with three young women, and they’d already read this post. They were extremely surprised by the research I included showing how effective, even necessary a smile is. They were also disbelieving that most conversations in bars are started by women, and they all admitted frequently standing in bars in the dreaded wagon wheel formation with their friends. Furthermore – and I found this surprising – they agreed that any guy who approaches a group of girls is indicating that he is indifferent in terms of which one he winds up with. He’s just looking for ass, and anyone will do. That may be true, but it hadn’t occurred to them that a guy might work up the nerve to approach a group with a particular interest in one woman. There’s an enormous amount of defensive posturing that goes on, and any man must view such a group as a mighty fortress.
      .
      The post got them thinking that it might indeed be very different to stand in guys’ shoes. I emphasized that it is necessary that they provide specific, tangible encouragement if they hope to meet a good man.
      .
      The point I’m trying to make is that women cannot demonstrate reassurance when they don’t understand the problem themselves. Unless they’ve been exposed to the contemporary male experience, they’re ill prepared to remedy it. It took the experience of raising a son for me to understand society’s attitude toward males. I don’t think it’s something my husband has experienced in the way that many men describe here. These truths may be obvious to you, and to others here, but the vast majority of people don’t get it unless they’ve personally experienced it.

  • dragnet

    Deep points raised by Esau and OTC.
    In some ways the “rape culture” meme has really done more harm than good to men AND women. And in the end, it deters betas from even approaching and has absolutely no effect on alphas who would risk it no matter what anyways.
    I know I bang on a lot about this, but here I go again: one of the most important things a man can do for his personal development is to wake up from his feminist social conditioning. In fact, I think guys should unplug a bit before learning Game. There is no way your Game is going anywhere if, at the core, you believe there is something wrong with maleness and male sexual desire.
    It’s alright to ask women to keep this in mind, but the reality is that they’ve been conditioned in the exact same ways. In the long run, it’s because to take active measures to change how you think about yourself because then you’ll be less dependent on the thoughtfulness & goodwill of women in any event.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s alright to ask women to keep this in mind, but the reality is that they’ve been conditioned in the exact same ways.

      Sorry, I hadn’t realized that Dragnet addressed Esau’s post here. I cosign this.

  • Badger Nation

    “I know I bang on a lot about this, but here I go again: one of the most important things a man can do for his personal development is to wake up from his feminist social conditioning. In fact, I think guys should unplug a bit before learning Game. There is no way your Game is going anywhere if, at the core, you believe there is something wrong with maleness and male sexual desire.”
     
    Without question. One of the first practical game lessons is how to pass shit tests, and the collective feminist shaming of male sexuality is a pervasive shit test, possibly the biggest one of all. The key to passing shaming shit tests is not logically arguing against them – it’s maintaining a social frame that you are above that tactic, that you don’t feel the need to play by those rules.
     
    A man who can deprogram the shame conditioning men experience in modern culture is 50% of the way there before he even tries an approach.
     

  • Badger Nation

    “because then you’ll be less dependent on the thoughtfulness & goodwill of women in any event.”
     
    It is critical that people who want to succeed in life develop the ability to be socially non-dependent on other people. Because rejections – in romance, friends, business, your sports team losing – are going to happen.
     
    This is an underlying theme of why women don’t dig “nice guys” – the perception that he is supplicating for praise and attention in exchange for his nice deeds, which really shows a dependency and neediness that is a turnoff no matter what the gender of either person.
     

  • OffTheCuff

    Esau, thank you for expanding on my thoughts perfectly.
    I don’t think it’s entirely up to “Plain Jane” to be more beta-friendly, though I think it’s necessary. A male role-model must teach a young man about the realities of dating and how to approach women, grounded in reality, and untainted by the ways “we wish it was”. Just a few words from Dad (“Hey, did you kiss the girl that you like? You didn’t try? Why not? It’s OK if you do.”) could wipe away years of other negative messages from a less personal source. The total impact of all these messages need to exceed the negative messages gained elsewhere, since they are so prevalent in today’s culture and laws.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      Just a few words from Dad (“Hey, did you kiss the girl that you like? You didn’t try? Why not? It’s OK if you do.”) could wipe away years of other negative messages from a less personal source.

      I’ve been curious for a long time how dads missed the boat on this. How is it that they raised sons who feel blamed for being male? Were the dads indoctrinated by the Women’s Movement? Were they unaware of forces outside the home damaging their sons’ esteem?

  • Mike

    But there’s a whole other reason why decent and/or beta-ish men might also lean toward sluts, even if their odds with them are still quite low, which is simply this: by her attitude, the slut does not condemn a man for the act of wanting sex.  She might not want to do it with some particular man, but her whole orientation is that sex is good! and of course there’s nothing wrong with wanting some.  Even if he doesn’t get laid in the end, you can well imagine how much of a relief it is for a young man to spend even a little time _not_ being told that he’s evil in his basic desire.
    .
    I think you are off-base here and conflating a bunch of stuff that isn’t connected.
    Firstly, regarding a Plain Jane versus a “slut”, the distinction is nonsensical.  You could have very hot, beautiful women who are not sluts, while the Plain Jane is more of a slut.  In fact, that is more likely.  See Karen Owen.  Again, decent body, average face.  It is the Plain Jane who has to basically offer her sexuality for the taking to the top-tier guys to get any attention from them, not the 8-9.
    .
    Secondly, one can have a healthy, positive attitude toward sex without simultaneously engaging in a ton of casual sex so that aspect of your comments is false dichotomy.  A woman could understand and not be negative towards male sexual desire without feeling the need to engage in lots of casual sex.
    .
    Thirdly, your comment fails to display an understanding of “slut” sexuality.  As Roissy as laid out in detail, “sluts” are likely to be just as selective if not moreso then the average female.  They are not having sex with the average nice guy Beta with average to low SMV.  They are having sex/being shared across all the high SMV alphas.  Again, see Karen Owen.
    .
    So really, there is no coherence to your commentary.  A woman could easily have a healthy attitude to sex and male sexual desire without racking up the partner count.  There is no intrinsic connection to the two.

  • karen

    Wow, Susan, another great post.  Where to begin?

    1.  I have frequently caught guys staring at me and I never smiled back.  I just thought that they would approach me and say hi.  I didn’t know that smiling back at guys and making eye contact was that important.

    2.  I agree that loud bars that attract attention seeking females are not great places to meet guys.  At the same time it is hard to know which guys are the nice ones because many guys become different people once at a bar.  I knew some really nice guys in college who once in a bar would drink a lot and become different people, guys that I would never ever want to introduce to my parents as friends.

    3.I’ve never really thought how hard it is for a guy to apporach a group of females.  A few weeks ago I went to a bar with a female friend and saw a group of 8 guys seated at a table.  I could not have approached any of those guys if my life had depended on it.  I was so terrified and intimidated by those guys even though I knew that I looked great.

    4. How is a female supposed to know when a male is just being nice and polite to her versus showing actual interest in her.

  • Matt T

    I think it depends on the kind of kiss. My favorite Mystery move of all time is when he is getting ready to make an exit, and he touches his finger to his cheek and says “kiss here” to the woman. That will definitely leave her wanting more. I agree that there’s also nothing wrong with a real kiss after a true connection has been made. But many women go to bars and make out drunkenly on the dance floor, or start getting hot and heavy up against the bar. That kind of PDA is just tacky, and I think a guy who’s got his tongue down some girl’s throat at a bar is going to be expecting late night action.

    I’ve never heard of that Mystery routine, lol. Interesting. My favorite is when he asks “Would you like to kiss me?” If the girl says “no”, he says “I didn’t say you COULD, you just looked like something was on your mind”.

    I’ve been curious for a long time how dads missed the boat on this. How is it that they raised sons who feel blamed for being male? Were the dads indoctrinated by the Women’s Movement? Were they unaware of forces outside the home damaging their sons’ esteem?

    Popular culture, partially influenced by feminism but not entirely, is responsible for everything. It portrays girls as faultless angels that should be treated as such. So guys do that, until they realize that worshiping a girl won’t let you build a healthy, loving sexual relationship with her. After that revelation, who knows what happens to the guys?

  • Höllenhund

    Ms. Walsh,
    “I’ve been curious for a long time how dads missed the boat on this. How is it that they raised sons who feel blamed for being male? Were the dads indoctrinated by the Women’s Movement? Were they unaware of forces outside the home damaging their sons’ esteem?”
    That’s a good question. A couple of possible explanations:
    - older fathers were “raised and the Matrix” and are therefore ignorant of the current hook-up scene and the hypergamous, badboy-chasing nature of women
    - younger fathers were raised in a feminist environment themselves and are therefore brainwashed
    - the only thing many fathers care about wrt their son’s sex life is that he avoids impregnating anyone, therefore the only advice they give is “use a condom”; they aren’t comfortable talking about this stuff in the first place
    - if you complain about pervasive feminist indoctrination and overmedication of boys, you’re up against the entire system; it’s daunting
    I should point out though that many mothers “missed the boat” as well – they (especially single mothers) raise their sons to be submissive beta males. On first sight this doesn’t make any sense. Wouldn’t any mother want his son to be successful with women, thereby ensuring that she will have grandchildren? Wouldn’t a woman know the true hypergamous nature of women and advise her sons accordingly? I once asked this question on Roissy’s site. Some PUAs replied that many guys in the PUAsphere have wondered about this before. The conclusion PUAs have reached is that women want reliable providers when they get older – the reproductive success of their sons is of secondary importance. That’s why they raise betas. Women’s innate drive is to extract resources from men by manipulating them – her sons included.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund
      Thanks for your reply, some interesting ideas there re Dads. Re moms, I disagree that they are manipulating their sons for resources – I think that’s all wrong. Women do manipulate their sons of course, but it’s generally for affection and appreciation. As hard as it may be for PUAs to believe, women do not understand hypergamy. The first time I ever heard of it was on Ferdinand’s blog. That’s why many women will vehemently protest that they like nice guys. They do! As long as those nice guys display plenty of dominance or self-confidence. They literally don’t even see the guys on campus who don’t display.
      .
      A second factor is that the mothers of men up to age 40 were themselves brainwashed/indoctrinated by the Women’s Movement. And not just by women – there are plenty of male leaders, politicians, etc. who have carried the banner of feminism. Because we don’t understand our own natures very well, and because we believed all the stuff about the sexes being virtually identical, like lemmings we led our sons to the slaughter.
      .
      Which leads me to another thought – Dads counseling their sons to ignore feminist teachings, or even, for example, arguing about whether men should respect women, would probably run afoul of their wives. Many men probably refrained from offering counsel that mothers would have found sexist or misogynistic.

  • Clarence

    Mike@1:28
    I will say that except for the girls whom most guys would regard as a “3″ or lower in the SMP there is, unfortunately , a correlation between extremely low partner counts and hatred or fear of male sexuality , esp. as the woman gets older. Even if her chastity or near chastity is for religious reasons, often many religions demonize sex, esp. male sexual desire.  So alas, there’s a bit of a trade-off. Too low, too long and she often does have issues, though- honestly- she’s still a better bet than a slut. For one thing, I think it’s usually easy to see if a woman has a negative view of sex or of male sexuality, because they usually don’t bother to hide it. Thus you know what you are getting into. So yeah, I recommend rewarding choosiness, I merely caution that not all females are choosy for decent reasons.

  • Clarence

    Susan @ October 15:
    Interesting story. I used Lotus 1-2-3 in the computer applications course, though by then *1994* it was starting to be superseded by Microsoft Excel (in part due to some Microsoft hanky panky that made it difficult to convert Lotus to Windows and thus delayed launch of a Lotus for Windows while Microsoft grabbed up market share). Spreadsheets are a very interesting technology and the history behind them is truly fascinating, going all the way back to a patent for the concept in the sixties.  The first commercial spreadsheet was Visicalc by the way -got that wrong in my earlier comment. However, with the exception of editing some tables, and entering some time data, I’ve only ever designed one sheet in a work environment. I’ve done far more word-processing.  Indeed, my first ibm pc was a 12 year old hand-me-down XT that I was given in 1995. It had WordPerfect 5.1  on it, and to this day that remains my favorite of the non-Microsoft word processors.
    Things are so easy these days – while I’m not of the punchcard era, I’ve read lots about it.  Many of the “kids” these days  (at 39 I am about the age when I can start being fogyish)in their teens and twenties have noooooooo idea. Having to take your presentation to a printer – the very idea! Heh, at least you didn’t have to illuminate the manuscript yourself ;)

  • Clarence

    HollenHund @ October 17:
    You missed one other reason: Many fathers are not in their kids lives either through divorce, through ignorance -not being aware one had a child due to it being out of wedlock- and etc.
    It’s hard to pass down knowledge from father to son when one doesn’t have a father. Then of  course some fathers have always been ignorant or uncaring jerks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Many fathers are not in their kids lives either through divorce, through ignorance -not being aware one had a child due to it being out of wedlock- and etc.

      Of course! This is obvious, but I overlooked it as well. In fact, this may be the single most influential factor given the divorce rate. Even a dad who sees his kids frequently will lose some of the opportunities for spontaneous conversations related to real events, and we know that those are always much more successful than the rehearsed sit-downs.

  • Jacqueline

    I met my current – he also happens to be my very first – boyfriend at a bar (or technically, a nice restaurant that was in the process of turning into a bar for the night), so yes, it is definitely possible! One more tip for the ladies: if you do happen to meet a decent gentleman one night — always be the one to leave FIRST. Don’t linger there, making sure you finish your drink and trying to get to know him as much as possible because you’re intoxicated by all the possibilities. I know it’s tempting, but don’t. After he gets your contact info, wait ten minutes or so and say you should really be getting home. Men want to miss you!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jacqueline
      So good to see you again in the comments! Excellent advice here too; always leave them wanting more.

  • OffTheCuff

    Furthermore – and I found this surprising – they agreed that any guy who approaches a group of girls is indicating that he is indifferent in terms of which one he winds up with. He’s just looking for ass, and anyone will do.

    Not true for the most part. Short of a modeling convention, any mixed group of women will have girls that are out of his league, and girls he doesn’t find attractive at all. If he’s a player, then he won’t settle for the plain girls. If he’s a normal guy, he won’t approach at all, but if he did — he still really has one girl he really wants to meet, and you don’t know who it is.

    That may be true, but it hadn’t occurred to them that a guy might work up the nerve to approach a group with a particular interest in one woman. There’s an enormous amount of defensive posturing that goes on, and any man must view such a group as a mighty fortress.

    Totally correct. Approaching one girl in a group of eight, means that any rejection is now eight rejections, as we damn well know you’re going to laugh about how pathetic we were when we leave. (Imagine if you asked a group of eight guys for directions, and they laughed and called you fat. That’s what it feels like. And we have to do this all the time!) You’ve upped the rejection threshold so high, that only few will risk it.
    It is an intense psychological fortress. If you set up a fortress that strong, then you shouldn’t be surprised that only players can bust through that defense. A player might approach the group, pick the second or third hottest girl, and then ask the hottest one “hey, what’s the pretty girl’s name?”.
    A normal man would not approach the group. Just like the blank stare, it’s a gigantic “KEEP OUT” sign. He would wait the girl he likes is alone or paired off, or the formation loosens up (say, standing) so you can talk to one person without being “on stage” in front of the rest. If you go out in big groups for safety, that’s fine, but if you want to meet someone decent, you have to break it up and regroup.
    A loser would approach the group, ask the prettiest girl out, fail, and then ask the second one. Even the dumbest beta knows not to do this.

  • Badger Nation

     

    1.  I have frequently caught guys staring at me and I never smiled back.  I just thought that they would approach me and say hi.  I didn’t know that smiling back at guys and making eye contact was that important.

    I appreciate karen’s comment, because it shows how the supposedly more-social sex can (and often is) completely lacking in considering things from the other person’s perspective. Not that I blame her per se – it really takes years and years of cultural programming and gender catering to not think that social reciprocity can help you succeed, and that men are robots whose “job” it is to approach you whether you look like you want to be approached or not. (A caveat: if they are just staring at you, and you aren’t that interested in them, don’t feel the need to respond to the signals.)

    3.I’ve never really thought how hard it is for a guy to apporach a group of females.  A few weeks ago I went to a bar with a female friend and saw a group of 8 guys seated at a table.  I could not have approached any of those guys if my life had depended on it.  I was so terrified and intimidated by those guys even though I knew that I looked great.

    This is unfortunately a typical trait of modern American young women – a total lack of attention to the troubles of others, until it happens to you.

    4. How is a female supposed to know when a male is just being nice and polite to her versus showing actual interest in her.

    How is a guy supposed to know when a female is actually interested or it just stringing him along until Mr Alpha walks by and makes her weak in the knees? Be conscious of what you’re selling, and study up on male desires and IOIs. We guys have to do it all the time wrt women.
    I don’t mean to be so hard on karen, but she should understand how self-absorbed it sounds.
     

  • Matt T

    To be succinct, it’s not socially acceptable for anyone, male or female, to approach a large group of females or large mix-gender group. Because honestly, they’re probably doing their own thing, having their own party, etc, and if you approach you look like an intruder.
    Females don’t march around in groups of 7 for safety, they do it because they’ve probably got other things than validation from men. Conversely, if you see a girl alone, you know exactly the reason she is there: not necessarily to hook up, but to get herself validated from men approaching her.
    A group of 5+ people is well known in PUA circles as a very difficult set to pull from. It’s recommended that you leave them alone until you’ve developed your skills on groups of 1, 2, and 3.

  • Höllenhund

    Clarence,
    “You missed one other reason: Many fathers are not in their kids lives either through divorce, through ignorance -not being aware one had a child due to it being out of wedlock- and etc.”
    Yeah, it’s so obvious I forgot to mention it.
    Badger Nation,
    “I appreciate karen’s comment, because it shows how the supposedly more-social sex can (and often is) completely lacking in considering things from the other person’s perspective. Not that I blame her per se – it really takes years and years of cultural programming and gender catering to not think that social reciprocity can help you succeed, and that men are robots whose “job” it is to approach you whether you look like you want to be approached or not.”
    I often have similar thoughts. We are always told that women are fundamentally social creatures who pick up vibes and social cues easily, that they understand subtle communication, that they can sense a man’s true character etc. And then I go online and see average women saying that they didn’t know that making eye contact and smiling back is important to get men to initiate to her, that any man who approaches a larger group of women is just looking for ass and doesn’t care whom he gets to have sex with etc. I read it and realize that what I’m told about women is yet again proven to be utter BS.
     
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund, @Badger

      We are always told that women are 1. fundamentally social creatures…. who 2. pick up vibes and social cues easily, …3. that they understand subtle communication,…4. that they can sense a man’s true character etc.

      1. We are, though the the most comfortable outlet for our socialization is often other women.
      2. and 3. We are good at reading subtleties in communication, but hopeless in reading minds. If a guy is not communicating what he is feeling or thinking, we have no idea what to think – which is why we spend hours at a time analyzing the simplest gestures. Sharing eye contact with a guy may cause a flurry of excitement, but very few women will take that as a sign that he is interested, especially if he keeps a straight face. We’re no different than guys in this way.
      4. Ha! We’re terrible at sensing a man’s true character – that’s why players do so well. Though some women would undoubtedly fall for the lines of a player even if she knew with certainty it would end in heartbreak, most wouldn’t be that self-destructive. Furthermore, as you know, we’re often blind to the good character in men who don’t display dominance.
      .
      Honestly, women are just as clueless in many ways about sex and relationships. We’re just clueless in different ways, and the current SMP is offering fewer opportunities to practice and learn relationship skills. Men seem more puzzling than ever.

  • J

    @SW

    Last night, I followed your link to your penis size post.  Two points:

    —I’ve never heard any women IRL discuss the equipment of a man in their lives unless it was something really unusual.  Micro-phalli and horse penes merit discussion.  Average size?  No one remarks on it.

    —I noticed that you look forward to cold weather because your husband makes soup.  Not only are we twins separated at birth, but we are married to the same guy!  Does your DH fantasize about leaving the corporate world to open a restaurant?  Mine does.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J
      Agree 100% about women discussing size. Although I do think it happens more today than when we were dating. It’s a predictable by-product, IMO, of depersonalizing sex – if we have no emotional investment or affection for a sexual partner, the encounter can only be measured in superficial ways. I don’t think anyone in a relationship would discuss their partner’s size casually – I have never had a friend or even young woman share this information with me about their private lives.
      .
      Question: what does DH stand for, other than designated hitter?
      Mine doesn’t fantasize about opening a restaurant – he dreams of leaving the corporate world to study American history all day long.

  • OffTheCuff

    Aw, don’t be so harsh to Karen.
    1. Now you know. Try it and see what happens.
    2. I agree.
    3. You are showing empathy, which is rare, and I would like to commend you for even thinking this. Should you continue to think this way, I think it will assure that you will meet good men.
    4. You can pretty much assume anyone who’s being friendly to you, and going even the tiniest bit out of his way, is interested if he’s roughly your age: The friendly 45-year-old waiter is being professional. The guy in the grocery store who asked you if you knew where the papayas are, is.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff
      Thanks for responding with sensitivity to Karen here. Honestly, young women who are reading here (est. >1000/day) are not going to comment here if guys shoot them down and judge them harshly. Karen shared her experience honestly – she’s not out to demean guys. Why not view her as someone who is trying to find her way and has a lot to learn, just like many people her age? Many young women graduate from college with limited flirting experience. Such women are a whole lot more common than the Karen Owens of the world. BTW, Karen has shared other comments on this blog indicating that she was a very late bloomer – after being considered unattractive for her growing up years, she matured into her unusual looks and now gets noticed by men. As you can imagine, that’s a minefield for women not used to being pursued. She’s trying to navigate that, and she doesn’t lack empathy. She does lack experience.

  • Matt T

    Thanks for your reply, some interesting ideas there re Dads. Re moms, I disagree that they are manipulating their sons for resources – I think that’s all wrong. Women do manipulate their sons of course, but it’s generally for affection and appreciation. As hard as it may be for PUAs to believe, women do not understand hypergamy. The first time I ever heard of it was on Ferdinand’s blog. That’s why many women will vehemently protest that they like nice guys. They do! As long as those nice guys display plenty of dominance or self-confidence. They literally don’t even see the guys on campus who don’t display.

    Women understand hypergamy, and people of both sexes practice it if they have the means to. If a man is able to dump his 30-year-old girlfriend for a younger, hotter, tighter 20-year-old, he will do it. If a woman is able to dump her ass-kissing, boring, nice-guy boyfriend and get an alpha in return, she will do it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women understand hypergamy, and people of both sexes practice it if they have the means to.

      Of course. If you ask a woman if she wants to get with the best-looking, smartest, most successful, kind, self-confident man she will say yes. She is hypergamous. That does not mean she understands why she would dump her loyal boyfriend for a shot at that guy.

  • Höllenhund

    Matt,
    you’re comparing apples to oranges. Men’s natural drive is towards sexual variety, not hypergamy. Men aren’t hypergamous.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Most people, male and female, could stand substantial improvement in perceiving the feelings of others. Heck, **commissioned salespeople**, whose income and career success is to a significant extent dependent on this art, are often remarkably lame at it.
    In the case of male/female relationships, I suspect that the trend to smaller families has played a role—the individual is less likely to have a brother or sister, and hence to also lose out on the opportunity to observe the sibling’s pack of friends.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In the case of male/female relationships, I suspect that the trend to smaller families has played a role—the individual is less likely to have a brother or sister, and hence to also lose out on the opportunity to observe the sibling’s pack of friends.

      I agree with this, and in fact have noticed that the young men who are the biggest fans of my blog are often only children or don’t have sisters.

  • karen

    I suppose that I should be clear.  Today I have no problem getting into any club or bar that I want to get into.  There are no long lines for me.  As a college student, I would have been the girl who waited in line and was not let in.  So yeah, I don’t have years of experience in knowing how to deal with male attention.
    Second, I’ve been friends with those smart, attractive, nice alpha males.  They were nice to everybody from little old ladies, to then unattractive me, to the attractive females.  In fact, growing up, I’ve always chosen to be friends only with males and females who were genuinely nice to everybody.  Cads weren’t my friends.  So I am now in the situation where I don’t know if a guy is just being nice because he is just nice to everybody he meets, he is genuinely interested in me, or he is a cad.
    As a person and an employee I am really nice and polite to everybody I meet.  I just don’t see the point in being mean and nasty to a stranger.  Thus, I just assume that any guy I meet is the same way too unless he shows me otherwise.  And I am not conceited enough to think that just because a guy talks to me or looks in my direction that he is interested in me.  I automatically think that he is interested in the not-as-attractive female near me or that he is just being nice.  Although on the outside I am attractive, on the inside I still feel like that unattractive girl who for many years was invisible to guys except as a friend.

  • Hope

    “what does DH stand for, other than designated hitter?”
    I believe it stands for Dear Husband.

    “Although on the outside I am attractive, on the inside I still feel like that unattractive girl who for many years was invisible to guys except as a friend.”
    karen, I was also an ugly duckling, and felt very ugly from an early age. The Internet has been a great blessing to me. I would simply gauge guys by their interest in me aside from my physical appearances, because they don’t know what I look like online. Obviously this doesn’t work in “online dating,” but I never did that anyway.

  • OffTheCuff

    Karen, there’s a big difference between being basic courtesy vs. someone who is trying to make a connection with you, when they don’t have to. If you have “no trouble getting into clubs”, then it’s very likely you are attractive to nearly all men out there, and don’t seem to accept that just yet. This is your power, how will you use it?
    .
    It doesn’t sound like you were friends with alpha males. If you were, they would have directly pursued you, and it’s highly unlikely you were too ugly to be pursued. Very few women are.
    .
    Men rarely form even casual friendships with women they don’t find attractive. It sounds like you surrounded yourself with nice beta guys, who didn’t have the guts to ask you out. You are confusing their general good demeanor to others (which is an important character trait) as some sort of reverse indicator that they don’t like you. A guy can be nice to old ladies in the store, and still desperately want to date you. Maybe all you need is a well-timed smile to find out.

  • J

    @SW

     Although I do think it happens more today than when we were dating. It’s a predictable by-product, IMO, of depersonalizing sex …

    I’m sure that’s the case.  Women are becoming more like men in that regard.  I think part of what motivated Karen Owen was turning the tables on men who rank women’s looks.

    Question: what does DH stand for, other than designated hitter?

    Dear husband, darling husband, dumb husband, damn husband–depending on the tone and context.

    Mine doesn’t fantasize about opening a restaurant – he dreams of leaving the corporate world to study American history all day long.

    Wow!  Mine would join him; he’s also a big history buff. 

  • J

    @Hope, Karen

    I too was  an ugly duckling, and felt very ugly from an early age.  Puberty was my friend,  but I was in my mid-twenties before I actually figured out that I had grown into my looks.  What pity not to realize your assets!

  • J

    @OTC

    Men rarely form even casual friendships with women they don’t find attractive.

    Well, that’s heartening.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men rarely form even casual friendships with women they don’t find attractive.

      Well, that’s heartening.

      Hahaha. This is a double-edged sword.
      1. If a woman is crushing on a guy friend, she probably has a shot at making something more of the friendship.
      2. As J points out, women who aren’t guy magnets may find themselves deprived entirely of male company as all the guys compete for a place in the life of the “it girls.”
      3. When a woman is enjoying a guy friend, and she doesn’t want to see his penis, she pretty much has to worry all the time that he’s going to make a move or get ideas, because she’s been told that all her guy friends want to see her naked. Women get quite worried about this issue, because they don’t want to lose their male friends, and they don’t want to hurt them either.
      .
      Hence the popularity of the gay BFF.

  • OffTheCuff

    @J: Ouch with the sarcasm. I could ask: is it any less “heartening” that women will only date men that display social dominance? Yep, that heartening sucked for me. Or maybe is it case that men’s attraction is wrong, and women’s attraction is  right?
    It’s not a negative message. We just find so damn many of you attractive, even if we have no chance with you, that there’s a huge abundance of beauty to fill our soul and motivate us to be alive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s not a negative message. We just find so damn many of you attractive, even if we have no chance with you, that there’s a huge abundance of beauty to fill our soul and motivate us to be alive.

      That’s very poetic and generous in spirit.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    DH….”designated hitter” and “dear husband” and “dumb husband”, etc
    In aviation, DH means “decision height,” which is on an instrument approach is the height at which the pilot must *make a decision*…based on whether or not he can properly see the runway and/or its lighting system…whether he’s going to continue the landing approach or break it off and go around.  The actual view out the window must trump weather forecasts and expectations.
    Possibly also applicable to relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In aviation, DH means “decision height,” which is on an instrument approach is the height at which the pilot must *make a decision*…based on whether or not he can properly see the runway and/or its lighting system…whether he’s going to continue the landing approach or break it off and go around. The actual view out the window must trump weather forecasts and expectations.
      Possibly also applicable to relationships.

      Ohhh, I like that. It’s a great metaphor in several different ways.
      1. hypergamy
      2. male understanding of female nature
      3. female projection
      4. cognitive dissonance
      etc.

  • Xander

    This is a fascinating post.  Ironically, I *just* read a scientific journal article that studied men and women’s “gazing” behavior.  It turns out that men will gaze for extended periods of time at attractive women.  But women typically do little more than glance.

    This explains a big reason why men need the additional smile.  We’re all so used to staring down the women we find attractive, that we just *assume* that women do the same.  When women just glance at us and then glance away again, we take it as rejection.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Xander
      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment. I have been surprised to learn just how important gazing is, and how differently the sexes employ it! I can tell you that women don’t glance at all if they aren’t interested, not deliberately. If this occurs and you’re not sure if your eyes met by accident or she was looking at you, keep an eye on her after she looks away. If she is not interested, she will avoid looking back at you at all costs. If you make eye contact a second time, she’s ready and waiting for you to approach. Don’t expect a long glance (scary!) or a big smile (also scary), though it’s helpful for women to learn that those tactics are very welcome encouragement for men.

  • J

    @Xander

    For women, it’s just the opposite.  Staring down is aggressive; looking away is coy and can actually be an IOI.

  • http://eveslibrary.wordpress.com/ V

    Any guy that initiates contact more than you do is attracted to you. If he looks at you even when you don’t look at him.  Does he find an excuse to touch you, even casually. If you think he’s not attracted to you, he probably isn’t.

    I’m not shy. Just the other day I got in a spot of hot water for approaching a guy who turned out to be a girl. And got both a rejection and a pamphlet on how to better treat transsexuals. Hey, it’s nothing but a funny story now.
    I feel for you shy guys, I do. But at the same time if you don’t show interest I assume you’re not interested, because hell most of the time you aren’t. And by interest I mean initiating contact.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @V

      Just the other day I got in a spot of hot water for approaching a guy who turned out to be a girl. And got both a rejection and a pamphlet on how to better treat transsexuals. Hey, it’s nothing but a funny story now.

      OMG, that really is funny. I find it especially amusing that she had pamphlets on hand. This must happen a lot.
      .
      As for shy guys, it’s true that they will miss out if they don’t learn to approach. A woman may give an encouraging smile, but she’s unlikely to approach him. For one thing, she has no idea whether he’s shy or a total player. Women who are not looking for a hookup are afraid of being misinterpreted. On the other hand, women can be heartless, and many shy guys don’t want to risk getting publicly shot down, especially if it’s happened in the past.
      .
      Personally, I think shy guys should be open to meeting someone in a bar, but should definitely not rely on that strategy. I’d encourage them to network with friends, friends of friends, etc. And also day game – random encounters in the light of day can be a lot lower pressure than a bar scene.

  • J

    OTC:Men rarely form even casual friendships with women they don’t find attractive.J: Well, that’s heartening.
     
    OTC: Ouch with the sarcasm. I could ask: is it any less “heartening” that women will only date men that display social dominance? Yep, that heartening sucked for me. Or maybe is it case that men’s attraction is wrong, and women’s attraction is  right?
    It’s not a negative message. We just find so damn many of you attractive, even if we have no chance with you, that there’s a huge abundance of beauty to fill our soul and motivate us to be alive.

    J: OK, now that’s really sweet. 

    This is what bothered me before.  I read your first comment to mean that 1) any man I think is my friend really only wants sex from me and 2)even my casual friendships are dependent upon my attractiveness.  That’s not heartening.  It sexualizes everything if a woman is attractive and makes things hopeless for the unattractive.

    I think that most women can empathize with the pain that men who are not socially dominant might feel.  I’m not sure that is always the case for men.  Did you see Roissy’s post on fat women today?  Horrendous.  If a men isn’t attracted that’s one thing, but the outpouring of hatred on the unattractive is hard to understand.

  • Escarondito

    @J
    Roissy’s post isn’t merely about shaming fat people. It is about shaming fat people who are happy that they are fat. Even more so, feel they are attractice being fat.
     
    IMHO. I agree. I think it is wrong for fat people to be happy at being fat. And for people to tell me not to be mad at them and let them be happy, I think is wrong. Being fat is damaging for your health like being a drug user is. In some cases more. It’s also damaging for the family because of the many bills, diabetic issues, early deaths that they have to deal with. Then, the state has to deal with. Which in turn the taxpayer has to.
     
    And before you start saying, “But esca, some people are born that way and have body issues”. Yeah, bullshit. No one is born to be obese. They are born to be big or curvy, not obese. And there is a difference.
     
    Also, I encourage, and Susan does as well, for both sexes to not change themselves, but don’t sit and complain about things you can change to make yourselves more attractive to the other sex. Men, actually be interesting and confident. Women, look better. I don’t ever make fun of people for things you can change. But, you can change your lb count.
    You don’t expect me to look at a heroin addict and be happy for them do you? So, don’t ask the same for me with fat girls.
    <object width=”640″ height=”390″><param name=”movie” value=”http://www.youtube.com/v/OHGEBPM7Y_I&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3″></param><param name=”allowFullScreen” value=”true”></param><param name=”allowScriptAccess” value=”always”></param><embed src=”http://www.youtube.com/v/OHGEBPM7Y_I&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3″ type=”application/x-shockwave-flash” allowfullscreen=”true” allowScriptAccess=”always” width=”640″ height=”390″></embed></object>

  • Escarondito

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Esca

    I’m speechless. Just got around to watching that video. Why is that guy marrying her? He’s not gorgeous, but he is much more presentable than she is. And her attitude! Just terrible. Point taken.

  • OffTheCuff

    I read your first comment to mean that 1) any man I think is my friend really only wants sex from me and 2)even my casual friendships are dependent upon my attractiveness.  That’s not heartening.  It sexualizes everything if a woman is attractive and makes things hopeless for the unattractive.

    J: I meant nothing even close to that, but realize that it could be taken that way.
    Point 1: It means, that if you were single and had a male friend (not an acquaintance of a professional sort) that you interacted one-on-one with, then he almost certainly likes you. That doesn’t mean he’s scheming to get in your pants 24/7, only views you as an object, or doesn’t like you as a person. It means that, if you approached him for sex, and here’s the biggie: there were no other ethical or moral issues preventing him from doing so, he would go through with it. It is simply an issue of “does he find you attractive at all?” stripped of all this other implied baggage about your worth as a human, or how he values you. That’s a very different thing than “only wants sex from you”.
    Point 2: You seem to think attraction is some binary static attribute, that there is a pool of unattractive women, and one of attractive women, and any woman is either in pool 1 or pool 2; those pool 2 can never have any friendships with anyone because they are “hopeless”. This is not the case. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there will always be someone always find you attractive.
    Finally, I said “most”, not all. Your reading of my words somehow picked up lots of absolutes (“dependent”, “only”) that I did not say or mean.
    The funny thing is I am simply agreeing with the “Harry Met Sally” video Susan posted a while back.
     

  • Höllenhund

    Ms. Walsh,
    “As hard as it may be for PUAs to believe, women do not understand hypergamy. The first time I ever heard of it was on Ferdinand’s blog.”
    I’m not buying that idea. Women obviously understand hypergamy since it’s their sexual nature just like men understand their desire for sexual variety when they turn 14 – they just don’t know how to express it well. That’s why we have women incorrectly stating they “like nice guys” etc. Hypergamy is a fancy word most people have never heard but there is simply no other phrase that describes the female sexual selection mechanism better. “Serial monogamy” comes close though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m not buying that idea. Women obviously understand hypergamy since it’s their sexual nature just like men understand their desire for sexual variety when they turn 14 – they just don’t know how to express it well.

      We know what we like, but most of us don’t know why. We can tell you who’s bringing it, and most women will name self-confidence as the most essential trait. Most women, however, are unaware of their desire to trade up continually to a higher status male. And as I’ve said, not all women display equal levels of hypergamy. It’s a spectrum.

  • J

    @OTC

    Your explanation is basically what I thought was the norm before I started reading PUA-sphere blogs and having people tell me that all a woman has to offer is her looks.  Sorry if I over-reacted to your initial post.  Thanks for representing a different viewpoint.

  • J

    @SW

    This video was posted at CR a while back.  One of the posters who saw the whole episode said that the guy was an admitted “chubby chaser.”  The girl really is obnoxious but I’m not sure that her existence proves the points about women and the decline of Western civilization that CR was trying to make by posting it.  One thing that really bothers me about the manosphere is it’s tendency to point to extreme cases as justification for theirt actions.  People who really want to make a relationship work, deal with their partners as individuals no matter what others who share their partner’s gender may do.  The existence of  assorted male rapists, child molesters, and criminals, for example, has no impact on my marriage.  Yes, I realize the there are a lot of unsavory men in the world, but it had nothing to do with my husband and me.  Yet the existence of fat men throws the Roissy-sphere into a frenzy.  It’s not enough to say, “I’m not attracted to fat women.”  The amount of invective spewed toward fat women is incredible.

  • J

    @Esca

    When they say that, they’re saying that for a one night stand all a woman has to offer is her looks. Clearly a LTR would have to have something more than that for it to survive.

    The guys in LTRs, especially the married ones, will admit that.  Of course, they all claim to be married to 8s who just happen to be smart, funny, loyal, etc. as well.  ;-)

    But most claim that looks are pretty important.  In fact, I’m now feeling pretty convinced that, while my looks aren’t what’s holding my marriage together, my husband’s initial attraction to me was no doubt physical.  (In fact, I’d admit that the same is true for me.  My first impression seeing him across a crowded room obviously had to do with his looks not his soul.) 

    I have the impression from some CR posters that the worst thing a woman can do her husband is gain weight.  It’s perceived as something done to them, not something the woman did to herself or that just happened.   IRL though, people put on weight as they age.  I’m a few pounds heavier than I was 20 years and two kids ago.  But then again so is my husband.  So what?

    There’s this constant pressure for a woman to be sexy.  One poster told me that one of the worst things I could do to my husband was to not dress provocatively in public, never mind that my husband would have a shit hemmorhage if I left the house with cleavage showing. 

    The main point though was that women need to settle for some beta before they lose their looks because that’s what really attracts and keeps men.

  • Aldonza

    It’s not enough to say, “I’m not attracted to fat women.”  The amount of invective spewed toward fat women is incredible.
    Fixed it for ya.

  • Escarondito

    @J

    Beware of the mon-o-sphere. There are a lot of things said that man can easily differentiate from than women don’t automatically get. Like an arron sorkin movie about coding, we only catch bits and pieces that we understand in the coding, but the coders know it all.

    When they say that, they’re saying that for a one night stand all a woman has to offer is her looks. Clearly a LTR would have to have something more than that for it to survive.

  • Aldonza

    Grrr.  Why even have that “strikethrough” option if it doesn’t work???
    .
    Should’ve been:
    .
    It’s not enough to say, “I’m not attracted to fat women.”  The amount of invective spewed toward [struck-through fat] women is incredible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OK, I’ll take down the editor. Back to basics.

  • Aldonza

    It’s not fat women who get the most ire. It’s fat women who feel they’re BBW that I just don’t get.
    .
    But why the hatred?  We all concede that they’re limiting their romantic prospects, impacting their health, and lowering their enjoyment of life.  But isn’t that their choice?  And if they refuse the self-hatred about it, to go along with the manosphere hatred, who cares?  BBW may be delusional, but almost all of us have comforting delusions we cling to.

  • Escarondito

    @J
    The beginning of any relationship builds on looks. And for one night stands it ends there. For LTR’s you need other qualities as well. But looks will always be the firestarter.

    @J
    Again, beware the man-o-sphere but also beware the distortions we tell ourselves. The majority of women our age(Roissy and mine mid-20′s) are only about the idea of the wedding. They love thoughts about the ring, dress, party, cake, everyone for them. Across the gamut of america? No. But for his readership? It is not an extreme.

    @Aldonanza and J
    The same way I feel about women gaining weight in a marriage is the same way I feel about dudes who just live for sundays to sit and watch football and just come home expecting the world and slacking off in their marriage, the same way I feel about drug users, the same way I feel about porn addicts, and video game addicts. If it lessens you as a person, I will not apoligize for getting at you on it. Because I expect you to do the same for me as a friend. I wouldn’t go around calling my fat friends fat, but if they ask me, “Yo am I looking bigger?”. Yeah you are is what thye’ll here from me.

    It makes you unhealthy, less attractive, depressed, unmotivated, and it’s not natural until a certain age of metabolism loss. It’s not fat women who get the most ire. It’s fat women who feel they’re BBW that I just don’t get.

    It’s like me saying I’m a big beautiful coke-head! Some women like a skinnier man! I’m more for her to wrap her legs around!

  • Escarondito

    @aldo
    See above comment about big beautiful coke-head for why.

  • Pingback: Calibrating attraction by controlling the venue. | Dalrock

  • J

    @Aldonza

    LMAO

  • J

    @Esca

    Roissy’s post isn’t merely about shaming fat people. It is about shaming fat people who are happy that they are fat. Even more so, feel they are attractice being fat.

    Actually, I doubt that the girl in the video is happy with her looks.  It’s bravado; she’s trying too damn hard.
     
    Being fat is damaging for your health like being a drug user is. In some cases more. It’s also damaging for the family because of the many bills, diabetic issues, early deaths that they have to deal with. Then, the state has to deal with. Which in turn the taxpayer has to.

    There is some true to this, but I doubt that’s what’s bothering the manosphere.  Where is the hate at those heart attack prone fat guys?
     
    And before you start saying, “But esca, some people are born that way and have body issues”. Yeah, bullshit. No one is born to be obese. They are born to be big or curvy, not obese. And there is a difference.

    I’m not so sure.  My oldest friend comes from a family of ten kids–five full sibs raised together, three half-sibs from Dad’s first marriage, one half-sib and one full sib who were both adopted out by non-relatives and raised very differently from the rest of the family.  Both of her parents and all of the ten kids have struggled with obesity.  Dad had a heart attack at 60 or so;  Mom died at 72 of complications of diabetes.  Of the eight  kids I grew up with, three of whom lived in a different home with the first wife, only one has been able to maintain a healthy weight and he is still diabetic.  Over the past 45 years, I’ve watch the family lose and gain tons of weight, literally.  When the two kids who were adopted reconnnected with the family, they too were huge.  I find it hard to believe that genetics doesn’t play a role in that.  Add in the crappiness of our modern diet and the fact that most of us are bred to resist famine, well, it’s no wonder so many of us are fat.

  • J

    @Esca

    The majority of women our age(Roissy and mine mid-20′s) are only about the idea of the wedding.

    That’s gonna be a bitch.  Yeah, it’s nice to be princess for a day, but after that you quickly get demoted to chief cook and bottlewasher.

    It’s not fat women who get the most ire. It’s fat women who feel they’re BBW that I just don’t get.

    I agree with Aldfonza on this.  As long as it’s not your woman, why should you care?  Obviously some guy found the video girl attractive enough to marry and she, probably for the first time, got to revel in it.  On a personal, it really shouldn’t affect you or the other guys.  I can see people being amused about it, but so angry?  It seems to me that the manosphere feels that there’s obligation on the part of random women to be erection- provoking.  They get angry when it doesn’t work out that way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think it’s very simple – if you aren’t attracted to fat people, don’t date them. If you are attracted to a curvy girl who’s 20, you should know that she may put on weight over the years. If that’s a dealbreaker, discuss it up front. If she gains weight, you have the right to walk, as long as that was a condition of your relationship. Honestly, no one is forcing you to be with anyone you don’t want to be, but haranguing your partner about their weight is hurtful and rude. If you don’t want to risk it, select an ectomorph.
      .
      Having said that….there are things that drive me crazy about obese people:
      1. They’re going to cost taxpayers a fortune under Obamacare.
      2. They get in the way. A friend recently told me that she visited Disney World with her kids, and could hardly walk down Main St. The reason? You can rent an electric wheelchair for $12 a day, and DW was crowded with obese folks riding around in these and cutting into the Handicapped lines.
      3. They hog more than their share of space in vehicles. I’d rather sit next to a screaming baby than a sweaty fat man.
      4. They’re slow. They hold everybody up as they waddle along getting winded.
      5. They nearly always exhibit poor hygiene and grooming.
      Is this bigotry?
      Oh, and I also think it’s criminal for parents to let their children become obese.
      Perhaps some people do have a medical condition, but I believe the vast majority of obese people in the U.S. have terrible eating habits.
      A woman or man looking for a partner should maintain a healthy weight. Otherwise, the odds are heavily against them.

  • Jess

    Actually this is not clear cut.
    Science has yo- yo ed on this.
    For a while they thought it was genetic, then calorie experiments suggested it was purely diet related. More recently the concensus is a combo of diet and genetics.
    However there are outliners- some people dont put on (much) wait regardless of diet- its been proven multiple times. I’m actually one of them! Many family members have skinny bodies young and old. At uni I ate terrbibly- never gained a pound. I’m lighter now that I was at 22 due to healthy eating.
    I have friends who eat nearly nothing and are very bulky- they have tried Atkins, Cambrdige, Glyco- you name it, just doesnt work. Body types and genes conspiring.
    I get very annoyed when people insult large people, particularly obese women as others make entirely false assumptions about a complex issue. Nobody chooses to make themselves like that, things are not always easily controlled. I have dealt with many a rape victim who ‘ate their way to comfort’. Throw in faulty hypothamamus conditions, low metabolism, depression and a western environment and you

  • Jess

    …continued……..have a situation which is almost inevitable.
    In the uk, obese children are now very common indeed and no one is sure how to resolve the situation.

  • J

    @Esca

    ... the rest of the family bends over to her try hard by saying things like she looks beautiful in that dress. Maybe it’s the enabling of the bad lifestyle I don’t like as well? Food for thought.

    What are they gonna in the dress shop, in front of TV cameras, right before her wedding?  I’m sure they’ve told her to lose weight.  How could they not have?
    Many BBW thinking fat girls expect the same treatment of a HB6-7 at least even though they themselves, their friends, and the men know they are not that.

    I think most are painfully aware that the world finds themquite unattractive.  

    Fat guys have to, and I mean HAVE to, take every interaction with the opposite sex with the frame of mind that they are fat and less attractive.

    I know some heavy guys who don’t see their weight as an impediment to finding women.  Even the guys at CR will say that game overcomes fat and ugliness in men.
    So instead of eating a crappy diet, wouldn’t it be smarter for one to eat right? I mean if the whole family has an issue with weight, it’s kinda odd one wouldn’t get the hint by now huh?

    Well, remember that over I’m over 50.  Chubbiness in kids was seen as cute back then.  They used to tease me about being scrawny and a picky-eater.  My friend’s family ate a very heavy, traditional EE diet at home and American crap outside the home.  I don’t think they realized what a double-whammy that was until it was too late.  I’ve seen them all yo-yo up and down on every diet imaginable and always end up heavier than before.

    There’s women my age who actually know how to cook? 

    Maybe not.  While I learned to bake at home, my mom dominated the kitchen.  As a single woman I ate a lot of crap.  I really wasn’t a good cook unitl I got married.  My husband, who had worked in restaurants as a teenager, taught me some techniques.  I taught myself the rest from cookbooks.  If you can read, you can cook

    My thing, is the fat girl, “I’m a BBW”, mantra. Partly because it passively aggresivly implies, “Tell me I’m not!”.

    Oh, it definately is aggressive.  They get angry about being shamed over something they feel they can’t control.  Look at the statistics on re-gaining weight after dieting.  Most people, male or female, do.

    And mostly because I don’t like seeing people ok with their negatives. It’s the same way I feel about people who are addicted to drugs and pills

    You have no control over how other deal with their negatives.  None of us do.

    I’d rather have them hate me for calling them fat in the hopes they deal with the real shit that they always felt ugly in high school and lose weight …

    Except that calling people out on the weight, drug problems etc. is really ineffective in motivating change. 

    My fat friend knows she’s fat.  She knows men don’t like it; she gave up hope of ever marrying years ago.  She kn0ws it’s not healthy and she’s going to die like her parents did.  She’s tried repeatedly to lose wight.  She’s still fat.

  • J

    @Jess

    However there are outliners- some people dont put on (much) wait regardless of diet- its been proven multiple times. I’m actually one of them! Many family members have skinny bodies young and old. At uni I ate terrbibly- never gained a pound.

    I used to be able to say the same.  At around 45, I put on some weight.

  • Escarondito

    Actually, I doubt that the girl in the video is happy with her looks.  It’s bravado; she’s trying too damn hard.

    You know what? I highly doubt she is happy with her looks either. But, besides her man who is a chubby chaser and would love her to stay big, the rest of the family bends over to her try hard by saying things like she looks beautiful in that dress. Maybe it’s the enabling of the bad lifestyle I don’t like as well? Food for thought.

    There is some truth* to this, but I doubt that’s what’s bothering the manosphere.  Where is the hate at those heart attack prone fat guys?

    I’ve always believed it was because of one thing. Many BBW thinking fat girls expect the same treatment of a HB6-7 at least even though they themselves, their friends, and the men know they are not that. Fat guys have to, and I mean HAVE to, take every interaction with the opposite sex with the frame of mind that they are fat and less attractive. Therefore they know to off-set their fatness they must work on their provider qualities. Car, job, clothes, income. They deal on a daily basis with the negatives and off-set it. The fat girl still expects what she “deserves”.

    Add in the crappiness of our modern diet and the fact that most of us are bred to resist famine, well, it’s no wonder so many of us are fat.

    I chose to highlight this point. Judging from what you just said in the rest of the post, again no one is genetically predisposed to be obese. They may be genetically predisposed to store fat easier. So instead of eating a crappy diet, wouldn’t it be smarter for one to eat right? I mean if the whole family has an issue with weight, it’s kinda odd one wouldn’t get the hint by now huh?

  • Jess

    J
    “At around 45, I put on some weight”.
    - oh brilliant!! got that to look forward to have I? cheers for that.
    .
    i agree its usually a combo not purely genetics
    the kid thing is down to tv and junk food.
    But there is no easy fix- a spiral develops. None of these obese people ever imagined it could happen to them.
    They are generally unhappy souls but there are some inspiring, happy exceptions.
    Being overweight isnt an ideal choice sure- but guess what..its riskier statistically to be a miner, a horse rider, soldier or a rugby player.
    They need to be criticised 1st methinks.

  • J

    @Esca

    After I wrote, “My fat friend knows she’s fat. She knows men don’t like it; she gave up hope of ever marrying years ago,” it occurred to me that all but one of her sisters, all equally fat, are married.  One is married to a Civil War re-enactor;  they others have beta to gamma/omega STEM guy husbands.  The guys are the type that Roissy writes for.  Is the hatred of these women linked to the fear of being stuck with one?

  • Escarondito

    That’s gonna be a bitch.  Yeah, it’s nice to be princess for a day, but after that you quickly get demoted to chief cook and bottlewasher.

    There’s women my age who actually know how to cook? Don’t play copperfield with me J make them re-appear.

      On a personal, it really shouldn’t affect you or the other guys.  I can see people being amused about it, but so angry?  It seems to me that the manosphere feels that there’s obligation on the part of random women to be erection- provoking.  They get angry when it doesn’t work out that way.

    That issue, I can’t speak on for everybody. And there is some people who are generally angry about all fat women. My thing, is the fat girl, “I’m a BBW”, mantra. Partly because it passively aggresivly implies, “Tell me I’m not!”. And mostly because I don’t like seeing people ok with their negatives. And people have always told me, “Oh no esca, let them be who they want to be. If that’s the way they want to live, then let them”. I think that thinking is fucking stupid. As I think we can both agree, no one truly thinks they’re beautiful when they’re fat. No one likes being fat. Who likes waking up struggling to breathe, being easily winded, children looking at you as you put food in your mouth, pointing, not being seen as attractive(Unless a chubby chaser sees you for the beauty you are), being last in sports, life, and the workplace.

    It’s the same way I feel about people who are addicted to drugs and pills. No one likes to do coke to not think about a break-up, divorce, money problems, family problems, the malice of the world, their stupid manager.

    I’d rather have them hate me for calling them fat in the hopes they deal with the real shit that they always felt ugly in high school and lose weight then enable them by saying you’re the most beautiful hippo to ever stomp down an aisle in a white dress.

    But hey, maybe that’s just me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      you’re the most beautiful hippo to ever stomp down an aisle in a white dress.

      Laughing hard at this.

  • Escarondito

    Remeber my whole point was about obesity and fat folk. If your friends are simply big, or curvy, they get nothing from me. But, if they are obese, I don’t believe at all that it is merely their genetics and not lack of a proper diet and excercise which also play a role. If J and science eventually prove me wrong that genetics can naturally predispose a person to be 100 lbs. more than a proper age-weight range, I’ll eat a big mac to that.

    Sickens my ass too that 1/3 american children are obese too. You mean to tell me that all of a sudden within the last 10-20 years of millions upon millions of years of evolution that suddenly we are blowing up as a race in the western world purely because of genetics?

  • J

    @Esca

    Regarding your fat guy comment. It’s because they realized that women would be more attracted to their personality if they worked on that.

    Must be.  I just know that when the clothes get tight, I get nervous when I look in the mirror.  That’s true of most of the women I know.  My husband just buys bigger clothes and still thinks he looks good.

    Cause they look at dieting as a one time thing. Dieting is a change of eating lifestyle.  

    I part that’s true, but dieting makes the body think it’s starving.  It works harder to hold on to fat once the food comes back, even if you don”t go  back to an unhealthy diet.

    I use that tactice because it worked for me. ..

    Your story is sort of unusual.  I worked in adolescent drug treatment for a while.  I’d have been out of a job if everyone responded as you did.

    And on your girl, depending on when she realized she wasn’t going to get a man being big I withhold my judgement.

    She was model thin for a while in college.  Heavy exercise and starvation.  The rebound weight gain from that period of her lie was astounding.


    If she was 23 and wasn’t able to lose weight working out, I call bullshit on actually working to lose weight.

    Oh, she’s lost loads of weight since her teens; she just kept putting it back on.

    My question is, if she just recently gave up on ever marrying a man years ago, from the ages of 20-whenever that decision came, what did she think her prospects of finding a man for marriage where?

    She gave up around 40.  Before I think she just figured that if she could keep the weight off, she’d meet someone.  Remember that we’re older; the whole BBW thing didn’t exist when we were young.

  • J

    @Esca

    Read again it was jess who spoke about atkins not you,

    I’m not a fan of diets;  I’d prefer to workout and eat well.  OTOH, my husband did Atkins and got sick and weak on it.  I told him so.  Now he bikes to work.

    but yeah I think the anger shown at roissy’s is the fear as well of some.

    Interesting.

  • J

    I like the editor.

  • Escarondito

    How could they not have?

    I wish i was lying when I said some don’t.
    Regarding your fat guy comment. It’s because they realized that women would be more attracted to their personality if they worked on that. It’s not the same for most women. Don’t care how amazing your personality is, a guy is still going to talk to the fat girl last. So the difference between the two is that the fat guy realizes his weakness in looks, assesses what cans till make him attractive to women and changes. The fat girl BBW thinker, thinks that she is sexy though many don’t find her so. A man and woman have to face up to it and change it to work out in the SMP. BBW fat women don’t face it.

    If you can read, you can cook

    Agreed.

     Look at the statistics on re-gaining weight after dieting.  Most people, male or female, do.

    Cause they look at dieting as a one time thing. Dieting is a change of eating lifestyle. When people diet then go back to eating what they usually eat and are surprised by the weight gain, it’s kinda stupid no?

    You have no control over how other deal with their negatives.  None of us do.

    Never said I did. But I can be the spark for their wanting to control their negatives. I’ll explain below.

    Except that calling people out on the weight, drug problems etc. is really ineffective in motivating change. 

    I use that tactice because it worked for me. I was high at all times, till a manager I worked with saw me come in high again one day, he looed at me and said, “You’re such a fucking loser, you know that?”. I was so high I didn’t even register what he said until later when I thought about the day. Didn’t come back high the next day, slowed down my smoking by the end of the week, and stopped on friday night. Never did it again. However, I am a very self-aware person, and you’re right to think that might not work for everyone. But I have had a nagging theory for awhile that everyone is as self-aware as I am, they just don’t want to be so they fight it and try not to deal with it, men and women. So my tactice will work for those who can hear that shit and say, “My god I am a fucking loser/fat/lazy bum”.

    And on your girl, depending on when she realized she wasn’t going to get a man being big I withhold my judgement. If she started to try and lose weight at 33 when her metabolism was already out of flux, I can’t say she coudln’t of seen that coming. If she was 23 and wasn’t able to lose weight working out, I call bullshit on actually working to lose weight. The reason I say that is because of the several ways you talked about losing weight in an earlier comment. Atkins, south beach, mountain voodoo diet, what the fuck is that shit! You gotta realize that those dumb ass infomercial diets are the equivalent of buying a shake weight or a goddamn snuggie. It’s dollar bill fantasies put on TV for middle class white people to spend their daily grind money on. It’s like saying you’re going to the gym expecting to lose weight and hop on the elliptical for 20 minutes in your cute gym outfit. That’s a bailey total fitness commercial not a real workout.

    But, if your friend busted her ass every morning jogging atleast 2-3 miles, sit ups, push-ups, lunges, supermans, and a daily calorie intake of 1000, and still coudln’t lose weight? Then I shut up on the genetics not being obese prone comment.

    My question is, if she just recently gave up on ever marrying a man years ago, from the ages of 20-whenever that decision came, what did she think her prospects of finding a man for marriage where?

  • Escarondito

    @J
    Read again it was jess who spoke about atkins not you, but yeah I think the anger shown at roissy’s is the fear as well of some.

  • Aldonza

    I’m not a fan of diets; I’d prefer to workout and eat well. OTOH, my husband did Atkins and got sick and weak on it. I told him so. Now he bikes to work.

    I lost 60lbs on Atkins. Tried the low-fat, vegan diet when I was in my early 20s (along with tons of exercise), I lost a little bit, but I became a raving bitch from the blood sugar swings. Went on Atkins and I felt better than I ever did in my life. I’ve since determined that I’m a protein type and I do not do well on high-carb diets.

    Working out and just “eating well” works…if you’re already normal weight. If you’re obese, it takes more than that. Especially because nobody can even truly define what “eating well” is. Low-calorie, low-fat, low-carb, Zone, Paleo…enough to make a person dizzy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Aldonza
      Can you explain the Paleo diet? How on earth does this make sense? I thought it was a joke, but I think I saw Roissy praise it in passing, and he’s definitely too narcissistic to endorse anything that wouldn’t make him even better than he already is.

  • Aldonza

    Fat guys have to, and I mean HAVE to, take every interaction with the opposite sex with the frame of mind that they are fat and less attractive.
    .
    A fat girl is the “beta” of the dating world. A fat girl not even blessed with a nice smile is the “omega” of the dating world. She’s more aware of her place in the dating rankings than anybody.
    .
    So my question is, if a BBW finds a man who loves her size…is that wrong? Maybe she’s better off finding a man who is OK with her size than she is dieting down into a size 2 and then ballooning up after the wedding.

  • Escarondito

    I wrote that because I had this going on in the grooms head as he saw his bride to be:

  • Escarondito

    If she finds a man who likes it, don’t stop till you get enough.

  • Escarondito

    “We aren’t just fighting for ourselves, but we’re fighting to blunt a favorite attack against women, gays, African-Americans and others who stand up for themselves. Hate is rarely confined to one thing at a time.”

    The whole argument of protecting those called fat as an equivalent to f–got, c-nt, and n-gger, is a losing argument the moment it leaves his lips. I know I don’t have to go in-depth with that response.

    J valenti:”We take the hit so others don’t have to.”

    Jaclyn Freidman is not walking across the Selma Bridge here is she?

  • Escarondito

    LMAO. First of all susan throw a NSFW on that second link. HAHAHAHA almost had an odd situation.

    Second, I tried. Just got worse and worse and worse. GTG drive home form work. peace

  • Escarondito

    Or maybe the non NSFW was your plan. I was susan rolled.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esca
      Oops! Haha, that’s the first nude pic I’ve ever linked to – never even thought about work. Sorry, not sorry.

  • Aldonza

    @Susan Walsh
    Paleo is essentially eating the way we presume our hunter-gatherer ancestors ate. Meat, veggies, nuts, berries, very little fruit, no grain or dairy. For the most part it works because our ancestors didn’t eat processed food, and grains are pretty over-rated as a source of nutrition. But I disagree with anybody who says they know exactly what we ate. Human diversity was pretty extensive even in Paleo times. Further, adaptations to local food sources happens a lot quicker than Darwin would’ve thought (which is why northern europeans can tolerate dairy while asians have trouble with it, but have larger pancreases, presumable to tolerate a higher rice diet.)
    .
    But I’m all for anything that gets people to eat *real* food.

  • J

    I think the fat girl photo would make a nice B’day card for Roissy. I hear he’s turning 37 again.

  • Anonymous

    J, I posit that “manosphere” blogs not the best way to judge how most, or even many, men think.
    .
    If Roissy was typical of how most men think, then most men wouldn’t be married at some point in their lives, or have kids. The pessimist in me wants to believe it’s a perception bias, because women are only interested in considering the Alpha stud’s opinion of them, and we regular folks don’t exit, so it seems that all men are dogs.

  • Mersenne Twister

    Agree with the comment of having two drinks maximum in one evening.
    Whisky smell attracts jackalopes

  • dave

    Looks like the “tide” has changed and fewer and fewer men are approaching women, having tired of the double standards involved. Maybe since women have to approach more often just to play, they will learn something about rejection ( remember what a great thing it is for guys) and treat men better. I hope that this is the case.