Last Wednesday night the Yale chapter of DKE marched their pledges, some blindfolded, past the Women’s Center and the area where most freshmen women are housed. The pledges chanted the following:
No means yes. Yes means anal. F*cking sluts.
My name is Jack, I’m a necrophiliac. I f*ck dead women.
Here’s the YouTube video – it’s very dark, but the sound is clear:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLh0RMpit1k&feature=related
Tracy Clark-Flory of Salon gets it exactly right in her response:
“Now, DKE President Jordan Forney has been forced to apologize for this blatant sexual intimidation by calling it “a serious lapse in judgment by the fraternity and in very poor taste.” But this sort of hateful crap isn’t a “lapse in judgment.” It doesn’t innocently happen that you’re guiding male pledges by young women’s dorms in the dark of night chanting about anal rape. It isn’t a forehead-slapping slip-up, it’s a sign that you need major reprogramming as a human being.“
The episode has caused an understandable uproar, leading to a meeting last Friday called the Forum on Yale’s Sexual Climate. Only about 150 attended in total, and from what I can tell, the backs of visible heads tend toward the gray end of the spectrum. Good Feed, the blog of the Good MenProject, covered the story. DKE’s President Jordan Forney, ’11, offered an apology to the Women’s Center at the forum, in which he “called the chants “inappropriate, disrespectful, and very hurtful to others.”” However, he ended his apology with this:
This is in no way a reflection of our organization or what we stand for. Nor is it representative of the brothers of this fraternity.
That’s BS. What he’s really saying is, “We’re sorry we got caught. Also, that you’re mad. We just like to have a good time. We’re guys, duh. It’s funny!”
Immediately following the incident, the Women’s Center called the chanting “hate speech” and “an active call for sexual violence,” which I find excessive. However, Forney was followed at the Friday forum by Diana Saverin, ’11, who spoke for the Yale Women’s Center. This time, her remarks struck the right tone:
We realize that these comments may have been made in jest or that there was a mindless element to these events, but we believe that this thoughtlessness is loaded, and it bears reflection.
She went on to urge the two organizations to sit down and have a meaningful dialogue. Personally, I don’t understand why the apology was directed to the Women’s Center. It rightfully should have been made to the entire Yale community, both male and female.
In any case, the apology was not sufficient in the eyes of DKE International, who sent their Executive Director to Yale this past weekend, and ordered DKE to halt all pledging activity indefinitely. According to the Yale Daily News, that means that the frat cannot accept any new pledges and must cease all initiation activities immediately. As it happens, DKE was founded at Yale in 1844, and they’re the only frat that has never gone inactive at the university. (Tidbit: Bushes 41 and 43 were DKEs.)
In an interesting twist on the story, back in January the blog Ivy Gate, which features news, gossip, sex and sports from the Ivy League, featured a short film made by artist Richard Mosse. Called Fraternity, he made it by inviting members of DKE, Yale’s “oldest and meatiest jock fraternity,” to compete for a keg of beer by “screaming at the camera as loudly and for as long as possible.” Alex Klein of Ivy Gate provides a short review:
“The piece, beautifully shot, starts off hilarious, then enters the sublime, and finally, vaguely disturbs. This shit is primal. The triumphant, longest lasting bro screams as if giving birth, his face turning beet-red, and sweat (tears?) beading down his cheeks. Snuff-film associations abound, as well as a discomfiting sense of visual assault.”
As a woman, I found the piece both hilarious and profoundly disturbing. I began worrying about any young woman who might accompany the winner to a fraternity formal. The film might as well be called, The Terrifying Effects of Excessive Testosterone. I have a sneaking suspicion that the victor of the challenge may be DKE’s current Pledgemaster.
Fraternity from Richard Mosse on Vimeo.
What do you think? Is it hate speech? Free speech? Funny? Are you surprised that the guys in the short would cook up this prank for pledges? Would this have happened 20 years ago? Or has the culture shifted in a way that promotes this kind of behavior?
{ 122 comments… read them below or add one }
Send in the god damn riot team! what is this crap? Prepubscent adults thinking they could go around and say this crap in frick’n YALE! There should be action taken place, there should be arrest, cuffs, stupid college students getting butt raped by prison inmates.
I get a ticket because I’m stopped at the muni and this type of crap goes on!
I thought they were pretty funny. But funny in a guys-trying-to-outgross-eachother-in-the-lockerroom-kind-of-way. Rape, anal and necrophilia are inherently funny subjects you know. Precisely because they are emotionally charged and generally messed up.
Obviously rhey shouldn’t chant something like that in public, and the University (and/or law enforcement) should respond in a way that makes it clear to them that acting like this isn’t worth it. Ie, they should get hefty fines, academic sanctions or what ever it takes to make the point. That doesn’t seem to be happening here.
Considering they were chanting outside the Women’s Center, and very likely did so for a reason, apologizing to the center is appropriate. Just because they’re probably brainwashed feminist drones out to destroy everything great about society doesn’t mean they weren’t wronged in this case.
As for them being testosterone-filled assholes. Of course they are. Being a testosterone driven asshole is richly rewarded in our society, not least by women.
Heh. Well, not excessively funny, I guess. I just listened to a perfectly intelligent person this weekend tell me earnestly that the problem with the world today is that we need to get rid of our inhibitions (this ridiculous canard lives on for a third generation), stop being so prudish, and accept that sex is good for you. Though the DKEs are clearly following her prescription for a happy successful life, I don’t think this is what she meant.
@RasmusF
Thanks for leaving a comment. I saw one online commentary that said the line “yes means anal” is actually pretty funny, but was ruined by their putting “no means yes” in front of it.
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Your point about women appreciating assholes is of course valid. I’m sure that even the “scariest” of these guys has no trouble hooking up on campus. Yale hasn’t taken any disciplinary action at this point. It’s interesting because some have said that Yale never does anything about this kind of thing. On the other hand, Yale Sex Week is a week-long virtual orgy sponsored by the Women’s Studies folks.
1. How is this different from a demonstration at my school where an activist group shouted “smash the patriarchy!” and symbolically destroyed a large paper mache phallus in the school quad? Nobody alleged “sexual violence” there.
2. I am no longer disturbed by the excesses of frat culture. I used to not understanding Greek organizations (sounded like paying for friends and social status). Then I got it one day – in a white collar society there’s not a lot of work that actually blows off steam the way the old subsistence culture did. And in college, with all the bogus classroom stuff and unsupervised time, energetic young people will need things to do. So the fraternity functions as a sort of hijinks holding cell, and an incubator of the leadership skills and personnel management requirements the men think they will face in later life. That’s an optimistic explanation – another is that it simply institutionalizes the dream of many men and women to party all through college. As seen at Duke, the most high-performance (socially skilled, academically most competent) people seemed to have the highest appetite for such activities. It’s not “excess” testosterone, it’s just that they don’t have a normal natural release.
I think all speech is free speech. The more outlandish the more protection it needs. No one will try to stiffle popular sentiment so that issue is a non-starter in all circumstances for me.
THis needs to be put into the bigger context of the long standing feud between the Yale Women’s Center and fraternities. Several years ago, the YWC performed a skit on campus basically categorizing all fraternity members as rapists. A different fraternity ran past the YWC (in the evening after it, and most of campus, closed) with signs reading ” We Love Yale Sl*ts!” Now it is no secret that men in fraternities do enjoy the easy women but anyhow one lone feminist was leaving the YWC and saw them and felt “threatened.”
Needless to say it turned into a huge broohaha wherein the fraternity was severly chastised for it but the YWC was given a pass on the clearly misandrist skit. So the two sides have been bating each other ever since and perhaps this incident pushed it a littler further than normal, but the YWC has really asked for controversy from the Greek system over the years.
@BN: Symbolically destroyed a paper mache phallus???! ROTFL. Did they start by circumcising it? Who made the phallus in the first place? Given that it was paper, did they set it on fire? Did they construct it in the Women’s Center first? (Imagining a horde of angry feminists working together en masse, assembling a large paper mache dick). Since it was made of paper, you should write the campus newspaper complaining about the environmentally wasteful aspect of the demonstartion. Trees died so they could make and then destroy their paper mache phallus! How shameful! It probably made baby Gaia cry.
@Maura
It’s interesting to see that both sides have been baiting each other for years. It gives this incident a context. Otherwise, I’d say this incident really does argue for the existence of a “rape culture.”
@ Badger
Then I got it one day – in a white collar society there’s not a lot of work that actually blows off steam the way the old subsistence culture did. And in college, with all the bogus classroom stuff and unsupervised time, energetic young people will need things to do. So the fraternity functions as a sort of hijinks holding cell, and an incubator of the leadership skills and personnel management requirements the men think they will face in later life.
I’m sure there is something to that. I would add that as life becomes more and more fragmented, people need a sense of belonging. People are missing the warmth of tribal life. The hazing of fraternity pledges reminds me of a primitive initiation rite. so does the tattooing rampant in some youth sub-cultures.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2008/jan/22/misogyny-claim-leveled-at-frat/
It does nto mention the skit that preceded the incident and i can’t find a better article. It also came out later, after this article apparently, that they were not chanting “D!ck, D!ck! “” but rather “DEEK, DEEK” in reference to this same DKE fraternity of today’s story in order to implicate their rivals in their mischeif.
SSDD, Silly, Stupid & degrading & discriminatory. It’s the culture sad but true. And no, you’re not going to have me or any other reasonably intelligent person defend the actions of these rich & very privileged scions here, which were perhaps meant to be provocative as some sort of ‘pledge hazing’. Bush was a DKE after all. Need we say anything more? Those were not ‘threats’ of sexual violence. They were actual boasts about the DKE’s claims to fame, sadly enough. And they’ll yes, proudly carry on these attitudes into their daily lives as older adults, and their overly indulged, entitled lifestyle will continue unabated as women of all sorts flock to be with them. It’s also a cultural signifier. ‘Those Must be the really Cool guys to be doing something so silly & ridiculous like that As A Group!’ The ‘Be more stupid’ campaign for the eons. Works every time! Cheers, ‘VJ’
*sigh* and these are students at one of the best universities in the US? People that historically become CEO’s and politicians? Just further reminds me just how far down the drain this country is…
As for the Bush aspect? As a side note, I doubt that back when they were there this would have been done or condoned. Values were different back then…
So, I was reading the link that Maura posted… In the comments I found the following:
This isn’t apparently anything new for frats on campus, so why is it getting the news now?
PBS had a documentary a few years ago about life on an aircraft carrier..when one young seaman was asked whether he wished he’d gone to college instead of joining the Navy, he said something like, “Yeah, I would have liked to spend 4 years partying, but that wasn’t in the cards for me.”
The growing and all-too-often accurate perception of college as a 4-year party is not going to encourage people to feel good about paying higher taxes and tuitions to these institutions.
This is precisely what happens when we handwave away “ahh, they’re just getting it out of their system”: it simply gets out of control and degrades into this kind of incivility. This isn’t some “Is your fridge running. Then go and chase it down!” kind of gag. Anyone who finds this funny or amusing has a difficult time telling the difference between humor and cruelty (My own nephews and nieces, the oldest of them 14, know at least this much.
Also, this is exactly why I don’t like the idea of being in any social group — formal organization or not — with “one of the gang”- type airs; they tend to foster a quasi-cultish mentality, squashes independent thought, fosters the wrong incentives, creates an environment for unethical behavior, and generally squashes people’s capacity for free thought – being able to question whether such a group really does contribute real, sustainable, goods and services for society.
PS: in general, soft-core indifference to others rights gives cover for the real douches, bigots, asshats, etc to carry out their behavior; namely by giving their behaivors a false legitimacy. IOW, they’ve either never been told such behavior is egregiously wrong or they use societal attitudes as a shield for their behaviors. It’s also a main engine of not only sexism, but also racism, antisemitism, homophobia, islamophobia and even general bullying.
@Maura
Yes, it does sound as if there has been a longstanding adversarial relationship between these parties. However, although the DKEs did parade by the YWC, they marched through Old Campus which is also where most of the freshman women live, according to one article. This was clearly designed to be a prank that would reach lots of ears, not just a few students working at night at the YWC.
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Some commenters have pointed out that free speech is something we have vs. the government, but that Yale has the right as a private institution to discipline these boys in any way they see fit.
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P.S. Women saying they are frightened because they thought guys were yelling Dick! Dick! Dick! ? Please, that’s ridiculous. Though it’s pretty funny that they were yelling DKE! DKE! DKE!
Yale has the right as a private institution to discipline these boys in any way they see fit.
I agree. I’d be pretty unhappy with my sons for behaving like this and would hope students at an elite university had more sense.
But Yale has established a history of treating the fraternities misdeeds quite diffrently than those of the YWC (which more accuratley should be the Yale Feminist Center because it has a history of not supporting and in fact dnying access to groups such as a women’s prolife group.) Yale explicitly prohibits political partisan groups from receiving funds, except in the case of the YWC. Most women at Yale do NOT support the YWC and view the women their as radical and out of touch.
Is the YWC’s painting murals on campus of female genitalia really any better than this nonsense?
@ Maura
How do you know so much about this? Are you an alum??
Are you an alum??
No, my brother is. He’s active in the alum association and pretty miffed about this nonsense. He’s considered no longer donating to them after the big blow up a few years ago but so far they haven’t pushed him far enough.
Ahem, Bush Jr. supposedly bears the scars from a DKE ‘hazing incident’ where he was apparently branded with a red-hot coat hanger on his buttocks. And then we can get into the whole deal behind the infamous Yalie ‘Skull & Bones’ society (a different sort of Yale fraternity & secret society), whereby the skull of Geronimo is said to still be housed after a 19th century ‘grave robbing’ incident. The tribe is still petitioning for his return too. So no, the culture of entitled ‘wilding’/stupidity really has not changed much in the intervening 100 some odd years. You just heard less about it due to the lack of reporting on such matters. Mostly it was kept very quiet & ‘private’ precisely to protect these future Banksters & Lords of Wall St. & Government. Cheers, ‘VJ’
It’s apples and oranges. A comparable prank to your example would have been an effigy or symbol of some kind being violated in an attempt to make a political statement. Perhaps some anti-feminism demonstration featuring excessively hairy body parts. Distasteful, offensive, yes, but not promoting violence directly.
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On the other hand, a comparable female example of the DKE prank would need to be some sort of demonstration that would be the equivalent of urging rape. I don’t even know what that might be. I did say in the post that I don’t think this was a call for sexual violence, but there’s no event that I can recall where women urged bodily harm to men.
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I also think you’ve got to wonder how such a pledging activity sets up the thinking of the freshmen guys joining this frat. Might they be expected to have slightly altered thinking about what no means after such an event? Might they believe that their new frat brothers don’t take no for an answer? It’s very possible.
Hmmm, might I suggest intramural athletics? Or if mischief is the goal, how about pranks in the style of MIT’s famous hacks? If the “winner” of that screaming contest is demonstrating leadership skills he’ll be using later in life, or if the DKEs that hosted this parade are demonstrating that they are leaders of men, our nation is in serious trouble. They’d fit in better with the Taliban. I’m sure most of them will wind up in Sales and Trading, pumping their fists in the air as the markets close for the day.
Why does partying have to include violent or sexually graphic remarks expressed in the public square? What’s happening here is that the definition of what’s fun keeps getting ramped up to keep pace with increasing hedonism. Consensual vaginal sex is ho hum for these Masters of the Universe. Anal sex with a woman who doesn’t want it is a lot more fun. BTW, this is in keeping with Athlone’s story about the locker room talk at his Ivy, and also with Roissy’s writing about enjoying making a woman wince with pain during anal sex.
@Lucy,
Thanks for leaving a comment. It sounds like you stumbled into one of those ironic moments where douchebags and feminists are on the same page.
Exactly right, IMO. And I don’t doubt that this little scandal will increase attendance at DKE parties.
@Filrabat
I agree about the cultish mentality and the lowering of standards in organizations like this – it’s almost got a sort of Milgram Experiment quality to it. In researching the history of frats in the U.S., I learned that there’s a reason they tend to be very aggressively heterosexual. The nature of the organizations were always very homosocial – in fact, many of the early frats were organizations for gay men. As they became dominant in the heterosexual dating scene, men found themselves in the position of selecting and admitting men that women would find attractive. This led to a hypermasculine culture where members feel pressure to constantly assert their heterosexuality.
@filrabat
I cosign your P.S. as well. Most of the guys are probably not sexist pigs. The pledges in particular are under enormous peer pressure to conform. As hazing acts go, this would be one of the less humiliating for pledges. It would be nice if they refused to rush this frat, but of course, that’s not realistic. I do think, however, that there are probably some of those real douches in DKE. You can pick them out in that Fraternity film. They’re halfway to Anger Management rehab.
That’s a good question. I couldn’t find any other reference to that having been chanted last year, but if that’s true my guess is that what’s different this time is that it was done to provoke the Women’s Center, who eagerly responded. Also, this hit the press when the YouTube video went viral – and we know the power of the internet to spread scandal….just having a webcam present this time around probably made the difference.
Not to mention the fact that kids are coming out of college without appropriate skills for the workplace. The value of a college education is declining, and I would assume that the party mentality – at even the best universities in the country – is not helping to educate the nation’s finest minds. Duke last week, now Yale. And these schools don’t even hold a candle to some of the more notorious party schools!
I wouldn’t call it hate speech, but I certainly wouldn’t want my sons doing this. This does not develop the type of character that I want them to have.
Seriously, this stuff is value-deducted. Can’t my kids get an education without being encouraged to take up character flaws?
Oh dear, it’s simply dreadful how slutty females entice our good alpha male pterodactyls to surprise swoop them
Submissively,
Aunt Mildred
Male pterodactyls are oppressed in the universities. Females are always accusing us of Surprise-Swooping them
Just like Aunt Mildred told us, if they didn’t dress so skanky yet act so uncooperatively non-faciltiative, there would be no _need_ for Surprise Swopping.
Submit!
Sexy Pterodactyl
EW. Possibly worse, unless those murals were washed away in the first rainstorm. I’m not familiar with the YWC, they sound like femisogynists. I wonder if they’re the group that brought Ron Jeremy to Yale in 2008.
Sexy Pterodactyl, you are provocatively dressed with your – fake- image – _that’s_ provocative…….
No but seriously Susan, appreciate this post as a move towards actually being for the women, as opposed to Aunt Mildreding. For a definition of Aunt Mildreding, see Sexy Pterodactyl’s classic post http://sexypterodactyl.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/facilitating-sexytime-for-dudes/
Maybe we can be efriends after all? Check my latest post for a critique of left feminism
On the other hand, gotta keep it tough: You are aware that Vincent Ignatius, In Mala Fide and other “Internet Alphas” that link to you/you link from basically support the type of behavior you’re calling out here?
@VJ
I agree with you about what these groups have always done in private. What’s new and troubling is that DKE feels free to shout these chants as they parade through Old Campus. This isn’t just about frat boys hazing one another. These chants truly are hateful. F*cking dead women? If my son were a DKE at Yale I’d be extremely unhappy with him. For all the talk of how parents and society have “betafied” young males since the Women’s Movement, one wonders how guys even got through the system with these attitudes. Even if the girls loved them, where were the adults when this kind of behavior first became evident? Where can we send these guys to get betafied?
That’s the deal Susan. They’re either Alphas or in training to be. They Are the ‘next gen. leadership’, and their parents, teachers & mentors have been letting this & them slide by all their lives. Because they’re ‘attractive’ & ‘come from all the right families’, and best of all? ‘They’re a ‘legacy’ and their folks ‘donate big coin to the XY school’. This is how a failed businessman & Congressional candidate in his 40′s after cratering every business venture he ever started, even with the help of his daddies well connected Saudi cronies got to be yes, Prez, with a barely ‘C’ average. Rising from the weakest Governorship in the nation, all based on ‘good fortune’ & a favorable press that somehow managed to miss several DUI convictions, as well as more than a year he spent AWOL from his TANG unit in ‘Bama/TX/Mexico ‘whatever’.
Those ‘nice respectable’ blokes, the poor schnooks who’ll never be able to get into Yale, no matter what their grades? Yeah, not the Leadership Alphas they’re training up there in our elite colleges. No one worries or cares much about the ‘betas’, and they’re seldom any trouble, right? And there in lies the tale. We make excuses for our darling Yalie/Elites wonderbreaded Alphas, here & elsewhere. And we constantly & forever reward them for who they are in a family dynasty or their ‘connections’, not on or for their intellectual prowess, studious habits, sterling good manners, or even the potential development of any of these capacities. It’s all about the bottom line, how much money might they be able to give to the college in the future, for ‘due consideration’ of the admin ‘looking the other way’ from their ever youthful ‘shenanigans’. Which BTW, as with Bush Jr.? Lasted yes, well into their 40′s, by ‘self confession’. These are our vaunted rulers. We must now & forever bow down before their power & rank wisdom. After all, those women could have not chosen to hear the insults, right? Cheers, ‘VJ’
Fraternities instituted “Little Sisters” in the 1960s largely for sexual access to attractive women. Little sisters were female “auxiliary” members of fraternities, sometimes also sorority members, who helped with the planning of parties and other social events. It was considered a “special privilege”. And at least at my school, there was no such thing as an ugly or fat Little Sister.
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Not surprisingly this practice was largely phased out in favor of female sororities by the 1980s because of allegations that the fraternities were taking sexual advantage of them (although little sisters still existed at my alma mater in the late 1980s.) [citation: Pledged, Alexandra Robbins, copyright 2004]
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Were values really that different? Or were the antics of the privileged just not published on the internet to be blogged about within hours of happening?
@Escapist/Sexy Pterodactyl
I read your comment, and like the sucker I am went right over to read your latest post, where the first thing I saw was this comment:
Followed immediately by this:
This isn’t the first time I’ve stumbled across evidence of a certain, um, fascination with Hooking Up Smart at your blogs. Originally, I thought we had common ground in our shared disapproval of Roissy, but after you said this:
Uh oh. So you and I share a nemesis, but you consort with people I do not respect any more than I do Roissy! At least Roissy is brilliant, where LR is ridiculously shallow and foolish (not to mention borderline sociopathic).
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Going back in time a bit, I find the true identity of No More Mr. Nice Guy!:
I won’t dignify this with a response, except to say that I always find it amusing when people try to “out” me with posts from my own blog. Too funny! And then finally, this gem from the great swooping pterodactyl himself/or his escapist alter ego:
How female indeed. Gossip, backstabbing, the phony offer to be my best new frenemy.
Not happening.
@Vincent Ignatius
I don’t understand your comment. If it isn’t abnormal, perhaps it should be? Why is TCF a monster because she is horrified by this chant? Are you defending the DKEs here?
Hilarious. Free speech. Bad idea.
This type of behavior isn’t abnormal at all for young men. The people saying they need to be reprogammed are the real monsters.
The chanting doesn’t necessarily bother me – repeating something like that doesn’t make you believe it. It was the targeting of the Women’s Center and the women’s dorms that worries me. However they meant it, that smacks of sexual intimidation and makes bystanders an unwilling part of the initiation ritual, which (obviously) many of the bystanders did not condone.
@ Susan.
I forgot about The Milgren Experiment. Here’s a BBC video about the Stanford Prison Experiment…both definitely on-topic (also has a short description about the Milgren Experiment).
Stanford Prison Experiment: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=677084988379129606#
Milgren Experiment ( Redux)… Pt 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk
@Susan
How female indeed. Gossip, backstabbing, the phony offer to be my best new frenemy.
Not happening.
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Not sure there is much for me to add as it looks like you completely nailed these phonies. It is funny how some of these commenters show up here as pretenders while they gossip negatively on their blogs. There are a few bloggers who are literally obsessed with you and Roissy as they seem to work you into every comment thread or blog post no matter how absolutely how out of place it is. And I love this term “pro-Roissy” supporters. As far as I can tell there was no mention of Roissy, support for Roissy, or citation of Roissy until these people bring it up. It is funny because they are literally obsessed with him which I guess speaks to the influence he does have.
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I was curious so I did track back this Mr. Nice Guy character back to LR where he?/she?/it? appears to be a LR sycophant literally groveling for her approval and reporting back on the comment thread here that she is participating in. LR had particularly deranged comments about you which I think attest to her mental state and character. And it looks like you now attracted this Escapist character who cruises the net posting under all these alter-egos and appears to be a LR groupie as well. The LR comment threads are very interesting as they are literally a freakshow. That said, I find the Roissy comment threads to also be a freakshow as well. I think your blog has attracted the sort of intelligent, analytical people who realize the truth on these SMP issues is probably somewhere in between the Roissy worldview and LR worldview and can actually have a civil, thoughtful conversation.
Shenanigans or Sexual Violence?
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IMO, neither. The latter overstates the seriousness of this behavior while the former understates it. This is definitely worse then just mischievous hijinks, but doesn’t rise to the level of violence. As a side point, I’m not a big fan when words get redefined which is why I don’t like the use of the word violence. Violence means something pretty specific, and I think we demean the use of the word when we apply it to situations like this because it cheapens real acts of violence.
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All that said, this is very bad behavior. Stupid, insensitive, immature, etc. definitely NOT FUNNY in the slightest. Some type of punishment is warranted. Really just indicative of the general deterioration in our culture as a whole.
The LR comment threads are very interesting as they are literally a freakshow. That said, I find the Roissy comment threads to also be a freakshow as well. I think your blog has attracted the sort of intelligent, analytical people who realize the truth on these SMP issues is probably somewhere in between the Roissy worldview and LR worldview and can actually have a civil, thoughtful conversation.
Cosigned! Despite my hatred of soap operas IRL, watching the unfolding of the real life dramas of some of regular commenters on the LR and CR blogs has become a fascination for me. This blog does provide a safe place for intelligent discussion.
@Xonk
I think your point about the bystanders is right on. I was discussing this yesterday with a young man, and he understood why it was offensive, but he said, “Come on, do you really think girls were afraid for their safety hearing these chants outside their windows? They know what’s up.” Fair enough, but that’s not the point. They shouldn’t be subjected to this kind of threatening speech just because they know it’s frat antics. Even the YWC rep said that she understood the nature of the activity. Personally, I don’t care if these guys scream this stuff all day long in the frat house. It’s bringing this message to the rest of the campus that is over the line, IMO.
@Mike
There does seem to be a whole population of women suffering from Roissy Derangement Syndrome. I don’t know what their motivation is – I suspect that some (or all) of them are survivors of relationships gone horribly wrong with Alpha cads. Portraying me as being in league with Roissy in some way is obviously off – I’ve never exchanged a word with him.
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The worst part of LR and her Lady Raines in Waiting is that they are rather hysterical. Their hatred is purely emotionally based, and it feels very personal when they talk about it. That kind of communication style is fine for an all-girls group, perhaps, but they don’t debate ideas – there is no substance. I guess in this way I’m more analytical/male. I find them shrill and foolish.
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I will say one thing. Sexy P’s shtick is pretty funny. She’s a good writer, and obviously very intelligent. She also has some very valid points to make. Her blog has (had?) a lot of potential, but it’s been taken over by the crazies, and she’s thrown her lot in with them. She’s wallowing in the gutter.
“Oh dear, it’s simply dreadful how slutty females entice our good alpha male pterodactyls to surprise swoop them
Submissively,
Aunt Mildred
Male pterodactyls are oppressed in the universities. Females are always accusing us of Surprise-Swooping them
Just like Aunt Mildred told us, if they didn’t dress so skanky yet act so uncooperatively non-faciltiative, there would be no _need_ for Surprise Swopping.
Submit!
Sexy Pterodactyl”
How true! Do you think it will take all those girls STILL attending DKE parties in slutty outfits even after this recorded incident to make the Yale Women’s Center get a clue?
I mean, It’s pretty tough to claim “She didn’t ask for it” as a bunch of coeds flock to the “No means Yes” house.
@Aldonza
Fraternities instituted “Little Sisters” in the 1960s largely for sexual access to attractive women. Little sisters were female “auxiliary” members of fraternities, sometimes also sorority members, who helped with the planning of parties and other social events. It was considered a “special privilege”. And at least at my school, there was no such thing as an ugly or fat Little Sister.
I Remember them being quite popular and competitive at my alma mater in 1990s as well. I think the good ole days are not so wholesome as some like to imagine.
I agree with this. In particular, words have a way of getting watered down and used carelessly, but their meaning doesn’t actually change. The word violence remains powerful, but now we’ve started using it to describe non-violent acts. In my opinion, the chanting was offensive but not hate speech. And it was obviously not violent in and of itself. Really, taken at face value it serves as a declaration that DKEs rape. What should happen is that every female freshman should avoid being alone with any of them. That is really the only consequence that would serve as negative reinforcement for that behavior.
What should happen is that every female freshman should avoid being alone with any of them. That is really the only consequence that would serve as negative reinforcement for that behavior.
@Susan.
True. But of course that does not happen. Women come back for more. This reality is what the Women’s Centers around the country refuse to acknowledge. As the saying goes.. fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice shame on me.
Feminists seem to posses ONLY peripheral vision. Take Karen Owen for instance. She conspicuously chose the same Duke type who were years earlier accused of raping a stripper, yet feminists would rather defend “13″ , than discuss Karen’s Lacrosse fetish and what that truly means.
@Average Joe
Certainly the “Karens” at Yale have probably already gone sniffing around the DKE house. However, there will certainly be many young women – women who probably weren’t planning to party there anyway – who will have nothing to do with them. In the end, that will be transparent and nothing much will change. Except now a woman who gets raped in the DKE house may have a more difficult time justifying why she put herself in harm’s way.
Except now a woman who gets raped in the DKE house may have a more difficult time justifying why she put herself in harm’s way.
@Susan
The strangest thing about the DKE chants is that they technically fit into the kinky, BDSMish form of consent as presented by the sex+ crowd. I am sure that sex+ crowd would vehemently deny this, but it is never the less true.
The DKE’s basically just posted a giant billboard that says “ladies, don’t party with us unless you are DTF.” Any Yale girl (they are supposed to be smart) should understand if A, then B… presented in such an overtly sexual way.
Yes, the DKE want girls who are DTF and likely won’t treat them well afterwards. However I doubt they are actually rapists. They wanted to get a rise out of their intended targets and it worked. Their buffoonery didn’t go over quite as well as they would have liked and that they regret. I doubt many of them believe what they said.
@SW
Portraying me as being in league with Roissy in some way is obviously off – I’ve never exchanged a word with him.
Obviously you are not, but the appearance of some of Roissy’s fanboys here, even though they are on their best behavior, is probably what gives the impression that this blog is is “in league” with CR.
her Lady Raines in Waiting
Too funny!!
I think the good ole days are not so wholesome as some like to imagine.
They weren’t. That’s why I cringe when I hear men talking about turning back the clock. Things weren’t all that great in the “good old days.” There was just a different set of problems.
However I doubt they are actually rapists.
@Maura,
I think that depends on the way one defines rape. I don’t think most DKE’s would actually hold a woman down while she’s screaming, but most would probably meet the women’s center definition of rapist for sure. Alcohol makes every man a rapist according to the most campus Women’s Centers. And frats serve tons of beer.
SW:What should happen is that every female freshman should avoid being alone with any of them. That is really the only consequence that would serve as negative reinforcement for that behavior.
AJ:True. But of course that does not happen. Women come back for more. This reality is what the Women’s Centers around the country refuse to acknowledge. As the saying goes.. fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice shame on me.
J: It doesn’t happen precisely because there’s a “just kidding” or “boys will be boys” attitude towars this stuff. IME, female objections to this sort of behavior are countered with, “Don’t you have a sense of humor? or “What are you? Some sort of a feminist?” Young women who have yet to be burned by this sort of guy often don’t have the experience that tells them to move away. And unfortunately the experience that teaches them is often a really bad one. Add in the fact that these are the guys that society rewards with money and power and that they are untouchable….you can see the result. And, if we remember that W came from this background, it’s easy to see how these guys keep attracting women.
@J
As you and VJ have pointed out, the perks of wealth and privilege will protect these guys, and possibly even enhance their status. If they were named specifically they might find employers balking, but there will be no long-term negative effects of this incident. And no positive ones either, except perhaps a slightly diminished probability of frats screaming about coercive sex in the quad, at least at Yale.
@AJ
“but most would probably meet the women’s center definition of rapist for sure.”
That is true. Unfortuanately they hurt their own alleged position of empowering women by championing Karen Owen’s blackout entaglements.
I think they were really hoping some hot freshmen would poke their heads out their windows and think “Ohhh what bad asses! I wanna party!”
@Susan
If they were named specifically they might find employers balking
Unless those employers where former fratnerity members or Yalies themselves in which case they would view it as youthful indiscretions. These guys are pretty much untouchable and they know it. Willing women will continue to line up and they know it. The YWC knows this. This is where most of the anger from the YWC is coming from but they can’t bring themselves to admit the true nature of the women who party with these guys.
j: It doesn’t happen precisely because there’s a “just kidding” or “boys will be boys” attitude towars this stuff. IME, female objections to this sort of behavior are countered with, “Don’t you have a sense of humor? or “What are you? Some sort of a feminist?”
@J
Seriously? Women have been using sex as punishment/reward long before there was a Yale. I understand what you mean by sense of humor. And so yes, you can excuse away women not vocally challenging the DKE’s for sure, but does that excuse away all the poon DKE’s will still be given? I didn’t think “fuck me or you don’t have a sense of humor” magically got college girls to spread their legs. But maybe that sort of line works at Yale.
Um… Yeah…
So…
What I’m thinking after reading this story is that all the Sororities have gotten together and made a pledge that none of them will fuck a DKE, right? I mean, how hard is it for the women to say, “Hmmm… That’s a really bad idea boys. So bad that we are no longer considering you as potentials. Ever.”
Did you ever see the episode of M*A*S*H where all the nurses decided to cut off sex until they got what they wanted? They got what they wanted. Fast.
@ Maura
Fixt.
Susan I hate hate hate HATE your new xhtml!
” In 5 years, most of these men will realize why this was stupid.”
That’s wishful thinking. I got out of that scene, only on the other coast, about a decade ago and soo many of the guys I went to college with still haven’t changed.
Welcome back, hamby! Sounds like you had a very interesting trip….
For months now I’ve been thinking about this idea of women withdrawing sex en masse – a la Lysistrata. It’s a cartel, and there will always be those who break free, e.g. Karen Owen, but it might be very interesting to organize women around this issue. If only the Karen Owens were left, and more discriminating women boycotted these meatheads, they might get tired of taking off the same old panties.
@dragnet
Am I missing something? How did you change Maura’s quote?
Re the editor, OK I hear you. Yours is the only complaint thus far, but it’s clear that some people are struggling with it. Hmmm, I’ll do whatever the majority wants.
Perhaps. A bunch of young men exhorting rape is not normal.
Maturity doesn’t occur automatically with age. It develops from life experience. I doubt most of these guys believe what they were shouting, but the ones who do? They’re unlikely to ever change. They’ll just move this kind of talk from the campus quad to the golf course. Incentives drive behavior, and they’ve already been amply rewarded for exhibiting precisely this kind of behavior.
I really think the “boys will be boys” defense here is unacceptable. If they’d kept it to private property, perhaps. But they took this show on the road, imposing on anyone who had to listen to it. Yale should not hesitate to pull their charter, or at the very least suspend it for a year. Even the DKE headquarters found it unacceptable – why not Yale?
I went to school with some of these kids who went to the Ivies and other big-name schools, and I went to a big-name university as well. For the most part these kids are very hard-working and rule-following types. The exceptions get all the attention, though.
It also depends on the school. The uni I attended had a famously strict administration, and I heard complaints about the “only dry” on-campus parties. Frats and sororities could not serve alcohol at their parties. The frat buildings were also physically separated by a nearly mile long walk from sororities, and they were close to the science/engineering buildings. So even though there was a big Greek scene, it was kept under control.
Incidentally the major rape story while I was in undergrad was not date rape or related to alcohol, but some stranger jumping out of the bushes after dark at women exercising and running along the trails. Any frat that tried to broadcast anything resembling “pro-rape” would have been eviserated.
Yes, I’m defending these men. A bunch of young men acting like assholes is perfectly normal. Hate speech my ass. They don’t need reprogramming, just the maturity that will come with age. In 5 years, most of these men will realize why this was stupid.
@Susan
FYI I a can’t format paragraph breaks in this editor – maybe it just me.
A bunch of young men exhorting rape is not normal.
Well, in lockers rooms it probably is normal. It is generally unwelcome behavior in public and dehumanizing. Like the YAD cycle of your previous post, it fosters an attitude of people are only good for how the serve us and thereafter disposable which I abhor. I don;t believe it was designed to promote rape rather I believe it was designed more to take a shot at their favorite adversaries and to show off to the freshman chicks what a-holes they can be – because they know a lot of chicks dig that. They don’t believe they would need to force anyone – they think the women will say yes and ha ha how funny.
But the Feminists are doing no favors to women with these emotional responses. If they want to discourage fraternities from being callous toward the promiscuous women (and I’m not sure that is even what YWC wants,) that won’t happen. If they want to discourage them men from acting like this in public than Hamby has it: the YWC ought to encourage them not to be promiscuous, in particular with these guys. But YWC is hardcore sex positive and thus senda a hysterical sounding mixed message: casual sex is great for women and hypergamy (which rewards this behavior) doesn’t exisit. If they claim women do no want to be treated like objects, but then encourage them to sleep around, women gravitate toward the guys who treat them like objects.
I doubt if even a single one believes rape is okay.
To the contrary. That is probably exactly how DKE’s feel about those in the women’s center… because as you said correctly… the women’s center attitudes about men are damn vile, and yet the YWC routinely get away with their sins with little campus fan fare.
Note that the Yale sluts photo was also in front of the YWC. Notice the trend? Guys don’t like the YWC, but of course rather than asking what the YWC’s member have done to be a “hate” magnet, the YWC blames it on “patriarchy”.
@ Susan
I tried to place some judicious strikethroughs in her quote using the html editor, but it didn’t take.
Frustrating!
I doubt if even a single one believes rape is okay. What if they were telling dead baby jokes? Bad taste, yes, but I doubt any one of them supports killing babies.
As for taking away their charter, you’re probably right, though the typical women’s center at any university actively supports far worse treatment of men.
“And, if we remember that W came from this background, it’s easy to see how these guys keep attracting women.”
As badly as I despise George W. Bush, his policies, his privilege, and the smug look on his face, I cannot see him yelling those things. He would have been one of the guys with the clout to say “Hey guys knock it off, we don’t want to get a rep for being sickos.” Maybe in his day guys like him had a more patronizing idea of the women in the Women’s Center but he probably would have just considered them misguided and crazy but not considered them enough of a threat to have this level of anger. It sounds to me like the guys doing this considered the women in the women’s center enough of a threat that they raised the shock value at risk to their own reputations. The George W. Bush’s of the world probably don’t consider the Women’s Center Womyn of the world that much of a threat, just silly. And therefore they wouldn’t risk their reputations by saying those things about fucking dead women. It sounds to me like this was an attempt to raise the shock value and get attention…in a way that the George W. Bush’s of the world, for all their faults, are too smart and raised too traditionally to participate in.
Even in that book “Our Guys,” when some boys were abusing a mentally handicapped girl, there were some guys who said “This isn’t cool” and left and/or tried to get the other guys to stop. You don’t always hear about the ones who say “Come on, this isn’t cool” but if there’d been a guy with the leadership qualities of George W. Bush in that group (as low a standard as that is) he would have said “come on guys this is going to get us a rep for being sicker than we are, let’s play hacky sack” or even started shouting a tamer chant, louder, to sway the group.
@AJ
Seriously? Women have been using sex as punishment/reward long before there was a Yale.
@hamby
What I’m thinking after reading this story is that all the Sororities have gotten together and made a pledge that none of them will fuck a DKE, right?
Actually, I have advocated women pulling a Lysistrata on this very blog. I agree however with SW that it’ll never happen. There are too many dumb and insecure women who will jump at a chance to get with a guy, any guy. Same goes with the marriage strike that the MRA guts are always banging on about. As long as men who can get women, desire women it ain’t gonna happen. The biological pull towards the opposite sex is too great.
Well, I am aware of several who make it waaayyyy too easy to file a false rape claim, or even worse, allow a third party to file one if they believe another woman was coerced. Unfortunately, there is a guilty until proven innocent mentality at many schools, and this wreaks havoc in men’s lives that is as bad (or possibly even worse) than being the actual victim of a rape. I do not mean to minimize the very real trauma that rape may cause, but unjust accusations of rape are also devastating and ruin men’s lives.
@dragnet
OK. I’m working to migrate the blog to a new theme structure, which will hopefully make these problems moot.
Wow, this is intriguing. The frat’s president is also one of their football captains(he led them in TD catches as a receiver last year, if I recall correctly, and is second on the team in receiving yards this year).
I know a few guys on that team and I can vouch for them: they’re mostly good dudes. If you’ve read my stories in the other comment threads(I forget which ones I wrote in, I can link them later if necessary), then you’ll know what attitudes are like in D-1 football lockerrooms. To sum it up: variety is good, commitment is to be avoided, and most girls offer little beyond a role as a consistent “slampiece”(or, for many of the black males on the team, “jumpoff”) at any given time. Slampieces are generally not granted a lot of priveleges. Privacy, for example, goes out the window and most of the team will know of their exploits at some point soon after they occur.
This, I should add, is just the prevailing attitude shared by a majority, but not all, of the players on the team. Most of the guys have had LTRs at some point, many still do, and a notable minority of them are what could be called “committment oriented” guys(rarely hookup, only ever had LTRs). If I had to judge the environment based on what I have seen in my locckerroom over time, I’d agree with what Vincent said above. Most of them are genuinely good guys despite the behavior I spoke about. They’re not hardened misogynists. They don’t hate or despise women. They’re just young men with typical youthful attitudes-that’s all. With time, most of them will mature and go about things differently, but while they’re here in their prime they plan to live it up. Sure its not really for me, but given their success and the fun they have here, I can’t really blame them.
I know a few guys over at Yale and most other Ivy teams. Judging from what I know of them, I’d put them on the same level: they’re young men with typical youthful attitudes that tend to lead toward a preference for casual sex and some labelling of the young women they engage in it with, but nothing truly sociopathic or hateful. They value variety highly and, when you hear them speak casually about their conquests, they can come off as misogynistic or somewhat mean from a female perspective. In reality, though, they don’t hate women-they’re just young men with typical young male perspectives.
Now, that being said, I really do think this one went too far. Its less the content that bugs me(it is distasteful, certainly, but none of those guys are serious about any part of that chant) but the sheer lack of wisdom in expressing it like that, even jokingly as a “pledge thing”.
Why any president of an Ivy League frat known to be heavily associated with one of the most prestigous and storied athletic programs in the country at one of the most elite and well known schools ON EARTH would allow this is beyond me. I know that at my school, the magnitude of what we do is drilled into us by our coach daily. Every one of us(scout team or first team, freshman or senior) represents the program, its storied history, and the elite academic institution that sponsors it(never mind the many alumni who hold our team close to their hearts and generously add millions of dollars onto our budget every year).
Granted, we’ve done stupid things. In fact, that’s part of why my real name and the school I go to are not in any of my posts-me just telling you all of this could create trouble. But something of this magnitude? I can’t see any of us pulling that. I’m not trying to portray us as “holier than thou”. At the end of the day we are all just a bunch of 18-22 year old kids, but I’m very sure that we’d avoid that fate given what we’re told every year by our coach and team leaders. It is tremendous that those guys could let that happen, especially when one of them is a team leader and a face of the program(Forney is on their website and media guides, and anyone familiar with ivy football would recognize the name quickly). I stand by my statement(based on the dudes I know of on the team) that most of those players are genuinely good people, but this still shows a tremendous lack of good judgement on the part of their team leadership.
I mean, what kind of reaction could you expect with a chant like that? And right in front of the Women’s Center and the female dorms? Seriously?
@Snowdrop
Often times, I think these kinds of stunts are the “brainchild” of even one person. That’s why I mentioned the Pledgemaster – he might come up with a terrible idea like this, think it’s awesome, convince two or three other guys to help him harrass the pledges, and it’s done. The pledges themselves are really just succumbing to pressure. Actually, that makes me wonder something. Wasn’t this hazing? Why doesn’t Yale take action against that? Plenty of other colleges do.
@Athlone
I was hoping you’d weigh in on the Yale thing – I figured you might have a unique perspective, and you didn’t disappoint. I think there’s a consensus here that this was more shenanigans than true hatred or violence. I’m not surprised to hear that you respect some of these guys. It’s probably more a reflection of the nature of frat hazing than any real opinion about sexual consent. I do have some concern though, that this kind of talk, as well as the kind of story you shared from your own locker room, leads to a certain hardening in people – what’s considered OK or “normal” shifts just a bit, perhaps even imperceptibly, whenever young men participate in these exchanges.
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Mostly I want to tell college women to avoid frats and athletes. I’m sorry, nothing personal, I know you’re an upstanding man, and I know you’re not the only one. But for a woman looking for love? Long, long odds if the guy hangs out in a locker room, IMO.
P.S. Athlone, I’d love your take on the Karen Owen Duke F*ck List. Duke is probably not terribly unlike your uni, and she went heavily for varsity athletes. Did this even hit your radar screen?
Susan: “Mostly I want to tell college women to avoid frats and athletes. I’m sorry, nothing personal, I know you’re an upstanding man, and I know you’re not the only one. But for a woman looking for love? Long, long odds if the guy hangs out in a locker room, IMO.”
Athlone McGinnis: Nah, it is ok really. Honestly, it will have no effect on me for several reasons.
I think I’ve outlined this before(and other blacks in the manosphere, particularly Assanova, have also talked about it) but I feel like stereotypes tend to get in my way a lot, especially with intelligent, upper class, less impulsive, more relationship oriented white/asian women(basically 90% of the population at my school). I used to think this was in my head(perhaps me just making up an excuse for my lack of game), but recently I’ve heard several other teammates(both white and black) mention it casually, so I think this theory has legs amongst the class of people I deal with regularly. These guys regularly talk about how difficult it is even to get a casual hookup with these girls, much less an LTR(if you’re like me and are one of the few among this group of guys who wants that).
I’m not going to get into a deep explanation of this phenomenon now because that would be beside the point. Suffice it to say that the women most likely to really take your advice here to heart and apply it are the women sharing most, if not all of the characteristics I outlined above. And, as it stands, they’re the women who(at least from what I can see now) tend to not mesh with guys like me very well. Approaching them is like confronting the might of the US military with only the Bahamian Defence Force at your disposal-you’re facing an uphill struggle. Granted, these barriers can be overcome(I’ve seen it), but the effort/skill required is very high. Since I admittedly lack the will needed to keep up the effort and the skill needed to make it all work, I decided a while ago that I’m done fighting that battle, so I personally have no qualms with these being warned away from me/guys like me. So there is no need to apologize-I’ll find other more amenable options.
A certain number of my caucasian peers, on the other hand, may be “longer odds” than I am personally when it comes to creating a meaningful relationship because of the way they view women, but these girls look at them and see far better odds-which is why those guys don’t have my problems. These are the guys who dominate the frat scene(and, in the Ivy League, the athletic scene to). If you could find a way to attach the same strong negative stigma to them as has already been attached to guys like me, you might just find the solution to your problem and successfully keep those girls away. How you go about that, however, is anyone’s guess.
Susan: P.S. Athlone, I’d love your take on the Karen Owen Duke F*ck List. Duke is probably not terribly unlike your uni, and she went heavily for varsity athletes. Did this even hit your radar screen?
Athlone McGinnis: It did, and I did skim the comments about it on this site and others, but I haven’t yet written a response. The culture she embodies does exist to a lesser extent at my school(Ivies are good for Lacrosse and we do play powerhouses like Duke and UVa), so perhaps I will write a response to it later. I gotta go to bed now, though.
I can see the benefit of this event to the pledges. They get to do something crazy in public with the excuse that they were “forced.” At the same time, it’s deprogramming them from the crippling PC culture they probably endured at their elite prep academies. “No means yes” might not be a great mindset, but it will serve them better than the “only a signed and notarized consent form is yes” message they’re getting from everywhere else. And it’s not like Yale is exactly Ground Zero for the Campus Rape Epidemic. Susan suggests that events like this lead to a certain hardening in people, and I think that’s exactly the point.
A “no means yes” mindset is surely more likely to lead to sexual assault, wouldn’t you say? Claiming one was brainwashed with fraternity culture is not a valid defense, not to mention the fact that a woman’s rights have been violated. I don’t think that will serve young men well at all.
@ Susan,
To Mike’s point about Yale being PC… When even the one and only Susan Walsh uses the odd political phrase “a woman’s rights have been violated” rather than the scientific “a woman has been raped” it makes wonder if the pendulum on that campus has indeed swung too far and the DKE’s were just rebelling against it.
10 years ago I heard the phrase “violation of a woman’s right” as a political euphemism for everything from porn to married names and I got sick of it fast. I remember being pissed that I paid thousand in tuition only to get a bad draw and get boarded in the over vocal Gender Studies dorm.
Did I scream stuff at the women’s center? No. But I did make sure I had some provocative slogans and images decorating my dorm door and walls. And if I had been forced to remove them, I would have referred to it as political correctness, not as a “violation of a man’s right”
@Average Joe
You’re ascribing too much meaning to my use of the phrase “a woman’s rights have been violated.” My intention was to stop short of using the word rape, because a man may disregard a woman’s no well short of raping her. An unwanted kiss or hug would even fall into this category, and at some colleges a man could be prosecuted for sexual harrassment or assault for unwanted attention of any sort.
.
The point is that a “no means yes” mindset is likely to land men in trouble, and it also forces sexual attention on a woman after she has explicitly refused it. For the record, a woman forcing herself physically on an unwilling man, even pressing up against him, for example, or throwing her arms around his neck, would constitute an identical violation of his rights.
I don’t understand why women are attracted to neanderthal men in fraternities like DKE. No, chances are they will not grow up, and expect their girlfriends or wives to pick up there smelly socks. It’s unfortunate they were accepted to YALE in the 1st place. Glad I went to Harvard!
Mommies ought to spank these boys!
@ Susan
A woman throwing her arms around a man’s neck is not a “violation of his rights”… because women’s centers don’t use that phrase to describe policy infractions committed against men. And while I understand you have a sense of fairness, the college feminists who wield the phrase “violation of rights” do so inequitably and college men know this.
Look at the hypocritical feminist reaction to Karen Owen’s fuck list. Was “violation of his rights” even mentioned? To paraphrase Orwell, campus women’s group speak as if all rights are equal, but women’s are more equal than others. This sentiment that women are sacred makes the WC’s targets. Thus you have predominantly male groups itching to get to them.
Zeta PSI chose to blaspheme with a “we love yale sluts” photo. DKE’s chose to scream “No means yes, Yes means anal”.
Of course what the women’s center wants everyone to believe is that the Zeta’s & DKE’s were attacking Yale women in general rather than the YWC specifically.
@Pamela
My guess is that a pretty high percentage of Yale DKEs were connected to Yale before they even applied. Of course, this goes on at Harvard too, and at all prestigious schools.
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I do agree that the appeal of these men is questionable. The men in that second video, with their aggressive screaming, were repugnant, and they weren’t even doing anything wrong!
@Average Joe
Well, I think you know I don’t cozy up with the Women’s Studies types, but when they have a point, they have a point. I don’t think “We love Yale sluts” is anywhere near as offensive as the DKE chant. In fact, I don’t think it’s offensive at all, especially in light of the fact that plenty of women at Yale proudly proclaim their sluthood. The real error here was DKE’s assumption that they could do this with impunity – Yale gives substantial power to its WC. By the way, this story hit CNN today – my 76 year old father called me up to let me know it was on. I can’t believe I’ve put my family in the position of scouting stories about such things!
lol@Susan:
“I can’t believe I’ve put my family in the position of scouting stories about such things!”
Actually, that’s a “good” thing. I could never discuss such topics with my dad. I still can’t believe he did anything as raw as sex.
This video is just more proof that not all cultures (or individuals) are created equal.
I’m so happy I wasn’t born here, and even happier that I’m leaving.
Susan, you missed my point entirely. Obviously a guy who does not respect a clear “no” is scum, but a guy waiting for a clear “yes” is going to be waiting forever. Being sexually aggressive is a MUST in the hookup culture. None of these guys are going to actually start raping girls just because some jokers went around chanting “No Means Yes”.
Then you said:
“An unwanted kiss or hug would even fall into this category, and at some colleges a man could be prosecuted for sexual harrassment or assault for unwanted attention of any sort. The point is that a “no means yes” mindset is likely to land men in trouble, and it also forces sexual attention on a woman after she has explicitly refused it.”
Well, if you terrify men into thinking that an unwanted kiss or hug is going to get them kicked out of school, they’ll always wait until they’re 100% sure their attention is wanted. And the girl will eventually move on, wondering why that sissy never made a move. And she’ll fall right into the arms of “no means yes” guy, who has no such qualms.
As for “explicitly refused”, I know you’re smarter than that. Sexual attention is not explicitly requested, explicitly refused, or explicitly anything else 99% of the time. No one is saying that guys should proceed in the face of a firm and clear “no”. That would be rape, and the kind of sociopaths who do that aren’t going to be affected by either sexual harassment seminars or pledge chants.
Will a “no means yes” guy sometimes get in trouble? Well, probably, but that’s only because we’ve criminalized hookup behavior for men. And if you outlaw hooking up, then only outlaws will get hookups. Do you see where the DKE guys are coming from, now?
@mike
I do not believe in the consent form approach, or even needing a verbal YES. A woman who is smiling, kissing you, and tripping over her feet as she struggles to pull her jeans off is clearly consenting, possibly even initiating. No one wants to hear “May I proceed?” just when things are getting hot and heavy. Nor do I think that Yale men will now think rape is OK because some idiots chanted that. I do think that the more we hear and say those kinds of things, the less taboo they get – we become inured to the shock of it – that’s the hardening I was referring to. Someone mentioned dead baby jokes, but that’s not the same thing. Jokes have always been a way of dealing with difficult subjects. If those lines had been said in a DKE skit they would have been far less offensive, if the intent was clearly to be humorous for a volunteer audience. This chanting did not serve that purpose, even if some did find it funny. It was rude at the very least, even to the guys who live on Old Campus.
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I don’t think it’s sexual harassment for a guy to go in for a kiss, not knowing for sure if the woman will welcome it. But if he tries, and she says no or otherwise makes it clear the kiss is not welcome, he must back off. This is for his own good, because according to some university sexual safety policies, trying a second time, especially with physical contact, could get him in deep trouble. That’s the reality, and guys are getting accused falsely as it is. They do need to be careful about sexual aggression. Any physical contact that goes against a woman’s expressed wishes is the boundary.
Not sure what you mean here, in the end. How far do you recommend that a guy ignore the “no” or choose to consider it a “yes” instead? When is he a mindreader and when is he just dead wrong?
How has hookup behavior been criminalized? It couldn’t possibly be outlawed. It’s sexual activity between two consenting adults. If there is sexual coercion of any kind, it’s assault.
So no, I do not see where DKEs are coming from. I think the behavior was stupid and basically inexcusable. I don’t understand any defense of a rape chant. And you haven’t even addressed Yes Means Anal!
@mike
I do not believe in the consent form approach, or even needing a verbal YES. A woman who is smiling, kissing you, and tripping over her feet as she struggles to pull her jeans off is clearly consenting, possibly even initiating.
@Susan,
Sorry to clutter with this again, but in case there was confusion the “mike” you are responding to isn’t the “Mike” (me the former bouncer and long-time commenter). I only mention this because in his comments he made some points I strongly oppose and frankly that I would not want to be associated or connected with.
I’m wondering if I should change my commenting ID to something more descript as this mike appear to be frequently commenting and perhaps some effective distinction is needed. Maybe “Mike Bouncer”?
@Mike
I’m glad you said something. When I comment, I’m looking right at the accompanying email address, so I always know which mike is which. But you’re right to be concerned – other readers won’t know. I wouldn’t say Mike Bouncer, that’s hardly representative of your current identity – but perhaps you would like to append an initial, roman numeral, whatever. There do seem to be quite a few Mikes around…I can also try to make the distinction when I respond.
Going forward I’ll use Mike C. It is what I use elsewhere on blogs with a different subject matter.
Oops…try that again…test
Being sexually aggressive is a MUST in the hookup culture.
IMO, sexually assertive would be a better term to use. Aggressive/aggression has the connotation of violence or force. Assertiveness is more about taking charge/leading the way.
“They do need to be careful about sexual aggression. Any physical contact that goes against a woman’s expressed wishes is the boundary.”
At this point, I can’t help but feel like you are being deliberately obtuse Mrs. Walsh. I said, specifically at least twice, that any man who proceeds against a woman’s explicit wishes is sociopathic scum. That’s not what “no means yes” is about. These men are not rapists. “No Means Yes” filters down into: “okay, I’m not sure she’s into it but I’ll give it a shot”. It tells guys that they don’t have to constantly be on RED ALERT for any sign of resistance – lots of college-age girls (themselves inexperienced) instinctively put up these signs even when they really want (or at least think they want) more.
I’m not condoning this behavior. I loathe the hookup culture, in retrospect, even though I participated in it. My point is not that DKE “No Means Yes” mentality is right or good, but that it is a more successful strategy than the alternatives in the extant hookup culture. The “good guys” have to play by ever-stricter rules – driven by the “bad guys” behavior – and the “bad guys” who don’t play buy the rules dominate the scene even more. The point of this DKE ritual is to disabuse their “good guy” freshmen of the notion that playing by the rules is going to serve them well in college.
By the way, you also said “If those lines had been said in a DKE skit they would have been far less offensive”. A public pledge event like this is exactly like a “skit”. No, they didn’t follow university protocols and reserve a room for a private audience. That’s not what fraternities do. I don’t want to get into a detailed explanation, but please take my word for it that the words chanted by pledges at an event like this should not be taken any more seriously than if they were part of a “skit”. Serious fraternity events take place in private or are otherwise cloaked in secrecy. A pledge event like this – deliberately open to the public – should be understood as a joke or prank. They’re not saying “No Means Yes” because it’s a core belief, they just want people to hear it for their own amusement. It’s just a skit where you don’t invite people or serve tea.
“I only mention this because in his comments he made some points I strongly oppose and frankly that I would not want to be associated or connected with.”
Wow, what kind of mega-weenie is so concerned about his blog cred that he feels the need to put out a disclaimer like this? For shame, Mike Bouncer.
“IMO, sexually assertive would be a better term to use. Aggressive/aggression has the connotation of violence or force. Assertiveness is more about taking charge/leading the way.”
I’ll concede that, but I think it’s tomato/potato. What matters is the message that young undergrads receive, and no one being sent a message that “violence or force” is okay.
I haven’t had time to read through all the comments, so if this idea ahs already been posted, consider it seconded.
Incidents like that chanting, behavior like the Tucker Maxes of the world, and frat behavior in general is precisely what happens when college girls (in particular, the physically hottest ones in the right sororities) happily advertise themselves as sexual objects for the fulfillment of the loudest, drunkest male. Eventually, guys lose all empathy for women in general, and who can blame them?
Of course, if enough stupid frat boys pull these stunts, people are going to see college guys in general as a bunch of drunken meatheads, and who can blame them?
@mike (not Bouncer)
I am not being obtuse. I am simply failing to take the words No Means Yes at anything other than their face value. It sounds like you have a dog in this fight, but portraying these guys as feeling uncertain about their chances with a girl strikes me as ludicrous. Sounds to me like the DKEs are the highest status males on campus. If anything, they’re likely to err on the side of “okay, she’s saying no, but who doesn’t want me? Time to push harder.”
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Also, the venue in which language is chanted is indeed relevant. A private chapter meeting in the DKE house, or even a Greek Week skit for those voluntarily attending are very different contexts for this kind of speech. While it’s never admirable, it doesn’t actually harm anyone. I think an argument can be made that this chanting outside the freshmen residences is harmful to the community overall, and certainly might be unnerving for newly arrived female students. It is most certainly not a skit, because people were not given the option of not hearing it.
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I won’t address the point any further, except to say that chants of this sort, in addition to being rude and offensive, are obviously just a really bad idea. This story has gone national, I’m sure the London papers will pick it up next. The biggest benefiiciary? Karen Owen, and she thanks Delta Kappa Epsilon from the bottom of her heart.
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Talk about obtuse! No, the message that ‘s being sent is this:
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If you want something, TAKE IT!
@Bob
You’re the first to post that comment, and it’s right on, IMO. The women rewarding these guys ruin it for all other women, which is why I’ve said there is a strong case to be made for slut shaming. I also agree about the view of college students in general – the press adores these stories of naughty behavior, and they drown out any sense that most Yale students are working hard and would never participate in such a stunt.
A Yale DKE (an extremely articulate Yale DKE) gives Salon an interview. Worth reading here:
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/10/21/yale_frat/index.html
and here:
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/10/21/frat_response/index.html
Susan Walsh@9:15 am:
I agree with your post here. Mike (not Mike C) does have a point, but he’d be far better served if he used another male group as his example -perhaps the chess team or something of that sort. Many guys could stand to learn to push a bit more -obviously stopping far before “no means yes- but I feel you are correct about these guys. They are on the top, and have never known scarcity of attention. They have the confidence women -esp. young college women – tend to seek. This chant isn’t necessary, and for all the reasons you listed above was divisive, derisive, and nothing but rude.
Hmm.
I have to wonder what even more dangerous and misguided college policies are going to come out of this DKE mess. Reading how easily the alleged powerful fraternity has capitulated in this is rather shocking. Supposedly for some “boys will be boys”, but it appears there is far less of that these days. Despite my disapproval of this behavior, I’d say the Yale Women’s Center has probably done far more damage to both sexes – yet it gets to cloak itself in the mantle of righteousness. I will say one thing for sure: no, this wasn’t some pre-planned or well-thought-out event by the DKE’s that much is obvious. I think as Susan speculated earlier, someone got drunk and passed the idea around to other drunk frat boys and here we are.
Reading how easily the alleged powerful fraternity has capitulated in this is rather shocking.
I agree, I’m extremely surprised. When Salon’s Broadsheet is clucking their approval, you know they’ve raised the white flag. It is unfortunate that the YWC is in a position to gain power here – and probably new members as well. These guys really screwed up. The biggest lesson here is that people need to understand they can be filmed anytime and anywhere, except (hopefully) in their own homes. These kinds of incidents are not new – but our ability to easily capture them for worldwide viewing is.
Susan@10:42
Yes, but you know the DKE’s aren’t going to pay for their mistake. Oh, the fraternity is embarrassed and being punished, but it’s not going to be disbanded and few, if any of the y oung men involved in the actual incident will have their lives interrupted by this. It will be the other less boorish males on campus who will pay and pay again as always. I find it neat how this works – a confident if rather dangerous/assholish percentage of guys gets by far most of the action on campus. Meanwhile the other guys get tarred with the privilege/rapist brush for the jerkish guys mistakes. Thus even farther reinforcing young women’s distrust of that “creepy” or socially awkward young man in the engineering building. After all, since all guys are jerks on the inside, might as well pick the most exciting and most honest about it, and thus ironically rewarding those who actually do the bad behavior in question.
@Susan, so does this mean we’re _not_ friends?
If you’ll let me post here uncensored (unlike some of the emotionally-delicate) MRA PUA bloggers) we can have lots of fun. Interesting how the manosphere deride left feminist (feminii) blogs for being censorious “safe places” yet do the same thing themselves to the merely snarky.
Re why I criticize Roissy et al: It’s not alpha badboy bad experience in my case, I’m one of the elusive (yet also inferior/loserly) Sexytime nonparticipators, and even I don’t like your shtick. Attention manosphere “alphas”, the gist of the Escapist “MRA PUAs and Very Bad Females” category (and all of Sexy P’s stuff, especially his current post about swooping foreign women): your prospective virgin brides think you ain’t %$&@ either.
As a Female of [Naughty Activities] Inexperience, I’d be well positioned to support the manosphere’s various tropes about the worthlessness of Those (“evil slutty” etc) Other Bitches etc and How I Am Not Like Them. I don’t, because I see that what the manosphere offers women (from its Roissyesque PUA forms, to its MRA complementarian fake-trad forms), even the inexperienced ones that do buy into the “Submissive Helpmeet Squadron”, is poisoned honey.
Unlike nice ladies such as you: Lady Raine, Maria and No More Mr. Nice Guy were actually welcoming to me when just starting out. And while I don’t necessarily have to agree with everything she’s said or done in her entire life (and likewise, she with me), Lady Raine’s general dating advice regarding confidence, independence etc sounds a lot more realistic than the manosphere’s gracefully Submit to Pterodactyl. I know a nice pretty feminine woman did all the manosphere-proclaimed right things (settle, make relationships a priority etc) and got seriously burned nonetheless.
Never fear, and extra naughty pterodactyl post is coming soon.
Please deposit 41.8% of your partially eaten small animal heads in account # 137687863
P.S. your nastiness towards No More Mr. Nice Guy (and “yes it’s bad, but..” angle on No Means Yes) is particularly Gameboy manosphere-supplicating. But oh the rewards – they like you, they really like you
Check out some of the things that the leading MRA PUAs say (statements that said twerps think are totally alpha male at first, until Some Female draws unfavorable attention to them – didn’t she know that we’re supposed to shield these daring badboys from the consequences of their own public statements?) and then tell me again why I’m the bad guy:
http://escapistart.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/obligatory-game-post-the-cliff-notes-version/#comment-572
Despite claims of being a critic, you more or less fit into the manosphere clique and abide by its script. Given that I’d do better (in terms of e-popularity vs. hate mail) via a similar approach, or by going the left-feminist route, yet I don’t – shows that my views come from an interest in truth and ethics.
@Susan, so does this mean we’re _not_ friends?
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If you’ll let me post here uncensored (unlike some of the emotionally-delicate) MRA PUA bloggers) we can have lots of fun
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I hope she will, and knowing Susan’s style I’m sure she will.
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Interesting how the manosphere deride left feminist (feminii) blogs for being censorious “safe places” yet do the same thing themselves to the merely snarky.
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The question though (as Randall quite accurately nailed….yes, I’ve still been checking out your blog from time to time) is do you have anything else in your toolbox beyond assertion, snark, and sarcasm and appeals that your views are “obvious”. Do you have any well-reasoned, fully-developed rational arguments based on data/evidence.
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I think one of the reasons Susan has attracted so many male readers/commenters is she does NOT rely on the typical feminist and often characteristically female overuse of sarcasm and snark. That brings clapping from the cheerleaders, but doesn’t impress those with serious mental firepower. I’m just speculating, but I wonder if Susan’s background as a MBA and consultant, and sort of entering what was probably still largely a man’s world in the 80s got her used to approaching subjects in a different way then the typical feminist blog does. You certainly couldn’t deliver a presentation to a board of directors playing the smart ass with silly cartoons. You better bring the logic, the rationale, and the data. Otherwise, you will be recognized as the lightweight. No doubt in my mind at all, that you will breezily and sarcastically dismiss all of the above paragraph.
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PUA/Alpha Aside On:
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Asides are kinda stupid. They make the writer appear as though he/she has ADHD, and can’t stay focused on the issue/argument at hand. Cluttered writing reveals a cluttered mind.
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PUA/Alpha Aside Off.
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As a Female of [Naughty Activities] Inexperience, I’d be well positioned to support the manosphere’s various tropes about the worthlessness of Those (“evil slutty” etc) Other Bitches etc and How I Am Not Like Them. I don’t, because I see that what the manosphere offers women (from its Roissyesque PUA forms, to its MRA complementarian fake-trad forms), even the inexperienced ones that do buy into the “Submissive Helpmeet Squadron”, is poisoned honey.
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What is your point here?
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Unlike nice ladies such as you: Lady Raine, Maria and No More Mr. Nice Guy were actually welcoming to me when just starting out.
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So really then, it is just about fitting into some group somewhere, even if that group is made up of freaks and nutcases. Lady Raine is truly deranged…I mean absolutely just bonkers. Honestly, she scares me. Periodically, I’ll scan her blog because it is entertaining just to see how crazy some people are. Susan, if you want a good laugh, and even more evidence just how nuts she is, see her comment about you in the music video post. She thinks she is some insightful analyst into your inner psyche, when in fact, it really just reveals how batshit crazy she is. The fact that you align yourself with her on even some leve speaks volumes.
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And while I don’t necessarily have to agree with everything she’s said or done in her entire life (and likewise, she with me), Lady Raine’s general dating advice regarding confidence, independence etc sounds a lot more realistic than the manosphere’s gracefully Submit to Pterodactyl. I know a nice pretty feminine woman did all the manosphere-proclaimed right things (settle, make relationships a priority etc) and got seriously burned nonetheless.
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Haha. I’m not sure if this is farce, tragedy, or comedy.
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You say “sounds”. Which of course reveals your total lack of experience in this area of Sexytime which of course you do admit above. Helpful tip here. Sometimes, things in life work in reality somewhat different then what “sounds” right. Sometimes, what “sounds” right is really just a reflection of your own biases and hopes that have nothing to do with how it really works. I don’t need to speak for Susan here, but I’d bet a ton of money she is happily married, sounds like she has two great kids, and is fully content in this part of her life. In contrast, Lady Raine is single, and by her own accounts is emotionally stunted, initially chose what sounds like a loser, and doesn’t really have any prospects with genuine interest. Yeah, given all that, I think I would go with Lady Raine’s model of the dating world and advice over Susan’s.
I’ve wondered why Susan often gets alot of attacks from other women, especially younger women, and I think I know why. She is delivering a message they don’t want to hear and internalize. It isn’t an appealing message to an immature, narcissistic brat.
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She is saying “Look, you have to exercise some discretion, show some restraint, be choosy” IF you really want long-term relationship success. On the flip side, you’ve got a Lady Raine saying to a Karen Owen type “YOU GO GIRL”. You are EMPOWERED. IT WILL ALL WORK OUT FOR YOU IN THE END. And Susan is saying “No, that is bullshit, decisions and actions have consequences” and you may not like the consequences 10 years down the road. The kids don’t like the adults who tell them they can’t eat all their Halloween candy in one night.
@Sexy Pterodactyl
Never fear, and extra naughty pterodactyl post is coming soon
Looking forward to it.
Mike C,
Well written but Idont think you give girls enough credit.
Granted they live for today not tommorow and there is plenty of unsafe sex and drug use going on but the majority of modern girls (above a certian attractiveness/confidence bracket) are enjoying a safe and varied sex life.
They have well developed ethics and care for their family and friends. If they reject a certain traditional philosphy it might well be because its bollocks.
The one thing I do detest is overuse of drugs or alcohol becuase it leads to dangerous judgements. And safe sex, however boring it sounds, must be drilled in at school.
Plenty of men have the maturity and self confidence to not be intimidated by modern women. Frankly you need to get with the program rather than tut on the sidelines like a disapproving aunt.
Granted they live for today not tommorow and there is plenty of unsafe sex and drug use going on but the majority of modern girls (above a certian attractiveness/confidence bracket) are enjoying a safe and varied sex life.
The statistics do NOT bear this out….UNLESS women are massively lying. I think it was Susan who posted a study that the median number of sexual partners for a 22-23 year old female (I think it was the age) was something like 3-4 sex partners. I actually think it is only a MINORITY that is having a “varied sex life”
Plenty of men have the maturity and self confidence to not be intimidated by modern women.
Nice try.
One thing about the Internet is MORE and MORE men are understanding and on to the use of “female shaming” language like what you say above. Of course ONLY men with “maturity and self-confidence” could accept promiscuity from the partners. To use your work, BOLLOCKS I say. Look, whether you like or it not, MEN PUT WOMEN INTO BOXES. Their is the girlfriend material box and the Ho box. And it will never change. Go read some of Athlone’s “from the ground” reports on college male athlete behavior and how they perceive women. That isn’t theory…that is reality. Go watch the Jersey Shore episode from last night and Vinny putting those 2 girls in the Ho box and talking about how he did NOT want to smash the one girl because “she wasn’t that type of girl”. Really, this part of the discussion gets tiresome. IT IS LIKE some women are completely obtuse to the reality of this and no matter how much evidence is provided otherwise they simply will not believe it.
Frankly you need to get with the program rather than tut on the sidelines like a disapproving aunt.
I’ve been in a monogamous LTR with the same girl since early 2006. We’ve been living together for about 2 months now. I’m not sure if that constitutes “sidelines” or whatever the heck you are referencing. And believe me, I’ve had opportunities but I’ve been 100% faithful.
Susan, that reminds me, here is a post idea, because many women (including my GF unfortunately) just don’t get this. For God’s sake, you have to do something to keep things sexually interesting. Google the Coolidge effect. I don’t think women realize just how powerful the male instinct for variety and novelty is. You’ve got to do something to create that. Women often wonder “HOW could HE (some alpha dude) could cheat on his super hot wife (8-10) with “her” (some random 6-7). “She (the wife) is so much better looking”. Yeah she is, but old expression is “show me a super hot girl, and I’ll show you a guy tired of fucking her”. The novelty outranks the sheer attractiveness by orders of magnitude. Frankly, it sucks as I wish I could change it.
Now I just need to figure out how to get this across without hurting feelings.
Hi Mike,
Totally agree on the variety thing. Works both ways though. 70% of US and UK divorces are initated by women and sexual disinterest (although not cited in the courts) is believed to be a key factor by ‘Relate’ counsellors.
If men kept things interesting in the bedroom and payed attention to her OUTSIDE the bedroom I bet the divorce rate would go down. Women have to do their bit too.
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The MADONNA/WHORE complex. Well perhaps you are right- maybe lots of men think like this. I like to think better of my fellow human beings. Your GF probably likes too as well. If you are going to advise on a maximum allowable number may I ask you what youra would be?
EG if a girl has had 2 penises inside her prior to meeting you would that put her in your ‘Ho’ box? (putting girls in boxes is definatley illegal in some states you know).
Or must she be a virgin?
I assume I have burnt my bridges with your good self. You dont know what you are missing- I bet my spag bol is better than your GF’s!
VARIED SEX LIFE & SW’s DATA: Yeah I remember that. Thing is, take out the girls that dont have sex at all for religeious/confidence reasons and then take out the girls in a LTR and I bet the figure shoots up- I bet 10 over 3 years is about right on average. And for the more passionate amongst us- I bet 10 a year is common. I’d call that fairly varied.
@Sexy Pterodactyl/Escapist
Wow, you are a fickle one, Sexy P. Makes me wonder if you might really be female! I extended the offer of friendship, and you have refused more than once. Not only that, you’ve become a hater of HUS on your own blog. I’m not sure what you feel you can gain by commenting here, and I’m not convinced it will be fun, but you are welcome here if you are interested in genuinely debating ideas. The only comments I moderate are the ones that include personal animus or name-calling, especially towards me
Further, I don’t feel particularly tolerant of the tactics of Lady Raine and her minions, who come here, pretend to be civil in their comments, then return to the lair and bitch, complete with armchair psychoanalysis. Ignorance is bliss, and I don’t read any of it deliberately, but I’m hardly inclined to have you linking here only to discover I’m being trashed in your comment section.
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My own sense of your writing tells me that refraining from insult is going to be very difficult for you. I’d suggest that you take a deep breath and try to chill, but I know that goes against your mission. You’re very angry and there’s power in anger, provided it is used wisely. I don’t believe you have used your passion to find the best possible outlet for your ideas. I think you run with a bad crowd.
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OK. Now I’m going to tell you exactly what HUS is. I am not an MRA or Game blogger. I do not consider myself part of the manosphere. I market my blog as being about relationships in the contemporary SMP, i.e. hookup culture. I do not seek approbation from any Game blogger, and have never done so. I originally drew the attention of the Game community with this post:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/10/02/hookinguprealities/stop-putting-out-for-alpha-asshats/
That led to all kinds of unpleasant exchanges, and also to my studying everything I could find about Game in order that I might debate the subject intelligently. What I found was that Mystery had successfully decoded the nature of female sexual attraction. Everything he figured out was in keeping with academic research in the field of Evolutionary Psychology, something I’d already studied. Furthermore, reading everything Mystery wrote and watching as many YouTube videos of him as I could find, I never found him to be unethical or immoral. He does not advocate deceit, which in my view is the line that separates Game and Dark Game. Mystery is easy to ridicule with his appearance and his magic tricks, but he’s also really smart and perceptive. And his method works.
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Ultimately, I came down in favor of Game because it gives “dads” a fighting chance over “cads.”
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/27/hookinguprealities/hate-the-player-but-dont-blame-game/
That was eight months ago, and I still feel that way.
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I don’t have a relationship of any kind with Roissy – we’ve never communicated, and I have never left a comment of his blog, which I read rarely. There are other bloggers in the Game/manosphere who I do know and welcome here, even if I don’t agree with everything they write. I believe they participate here and link to me because they find me intelligent and fair-minded. We often disagree, however – this blog is not the Spearhead (another blog I don’t visit) and it’s not an echo chamber. All of the men who comment here are civil and intelligent, and have interesting things to say. Many are the “dads” who have successfully used Game to get into quality LTRs. Others enjoy intellectual debate. Some have been burned by earnestly giving women what they thought women wanted, only to find out that women lost interest quickly and gravitated to jerks instead.
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I’m interested in what works. For all Lady Raine’s boasting (and posting those ridiculous pictures of herself), she doesn’t have a relationship. I’m not aware that she has ever had a healthy relationship. She proudly states that she has no emotional capacity wrt sex. If you believe she’s got what you want, e.g. independence, self-confidence, by all means heed her advice, but in terms of relationships, she’s really an example of what not to do.
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I’m not abiding by anyone’s script, I’m trying to produce an original one. I’m not socially conservative, as you’ve claimed on your blog. I’m independent. I’m willing to call out anyone for bias or prejudice, and I’m willing to debate just about any idea. Mostly I’m a strategist, and I believe a key part of being successful in life is taking responsibility for one’s own behavior. That means understanding it. Because the truth is, women respond to your vile ways, Sexy P, and many really would like to get swooped by you.
Dear SW,
Thanks for sorting out my comments glitches…
J
@jess
And safe sex, however boring it sounds, must be drilled in at school.
LOL, because kids are always so keen to do what their teachers tell them? No wonder America is falling behind in math, science, reading and writing. You apparatchiks would prefer the schools push an aborant agenda down their throats
I find this posting to be frankly depressing. My father went to school on his own dime, and as a result never joined any frat save the honors fraternity. He was a social person and looking back I’m sure he never understood why I had no interest in such things, but I was in a different time than he was.
Once he told me a story of watching some frat hazing their pledges. The prank that tickled him the most was when all the pleges were on the frat house lawn, being ordered “Pledge! Jump to a conclusion!” and of course all their efforts were in vain, no one could properly jump to a conclusion, so they were ordered off to do some painting or other work on the house.
That’s why this article depresses me. The general coarsening and degrading of the culture is painfullly obvious to me, as I’m able to compare several generations of time in my mind, and see the slippery slope getting steeper.
Good thing I’m not President of Yale. I’d decertify the frat and suspend the entire organizational membership until the told me who organized this monumental stupidity, and then I’d call a college wide assembly and publicly kick that stupid SOB out of Yale forever, in front of the entire student body. I’d publicly invite alumni who have a problem with me to take a long walk off of a short pier.
But I’m not from this country. Not any more.