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Why Do the Least Deserving Girls Always Have Boyfriends?

There’s a question I’m commonly asked that I have no answer for. Well, I have theories, but they’re pretty much pure conjecture.

“If everything you say is true, then why are sluts/psychos/bitches the ones who always seem to have boyfriends?”

I have to say that this often appears to be true. The most awful, mean girls always clean up if they’re halfway hot. Or we find out that the biggest slut in the sorority is now officially dating the QB who everyone thought was just using her. We hear stories of hot guys literally begging bitchy girls to be exclusive.

Nice, single women of good character feel baffled and resentful. If the guys who have the most choice select women who are spoiled, moody narcissists, what does that mean for the rest of us? Do we need a form of Bitch Girl Game to get the attention of guys?

I was recently listening to my new favorite band Every Avenue when the song Girl Like That came on, and it made me start thinking about this question all over again.

[wpaudio url="http://www.hookingupsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/06 Girl Like That.mp3" text = "Every Avenue - Girl Like That"]

What can you do with a girl like that?
Taking everything giving nothing back
Stuck between her legs when she sets her trap
What can you do with a girl like that?

She’s knows what she’s doing
Standing there with her headphones in
Skinny jeans and a tattoo
Her smile makes me wonder where she’s been

I would make a move if I thought there was a chance she’d let me in

What can you do with a girl like that?
Taking everything giving nothing back
Stuck between her legs when she sets her trap
What can you do with a girl like that?

I can’t wait for the weekend
Downtown where we all sneak in
Everybody’s trying to get some
She takes a drink and then she laughs at them
I can’t coast gotta move slow 
Watching her as she works the room
Does she see me? Does she know I
Wear my confidence like a costume?

I would make a move if I thought there was a chance she’d let me in

It’s like a curse that’s she’s put on me
Sweaty hands, shaking knees
Tell her that I want her to move too fast.
That’s what you do with a girl like that.

I think it could be me she’s looking at
And that’s a smile I see
So now I know that I can make a move
’cause I think there’s a chance she’ll let me in.

A girl like that.

A girl like that.

What’s up with that? What do guys really want? Poking around online, I found the variety of explanations I pretty much expected, some of which I’ve offered to readers before.

1. Men like the challenge of an emotionally unavailable woman: I would make a move if I thought there was a chance she’d let me in.

2. Men want to turn the biggest bitch into their personal love slave: Swept Away

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8MKuPLt6Ug&feature=related


3. Men secretly like drama. Complicated, unpredictable women keep life interesting.

4. Men believe that psycho bitches are good between the sheets. They know sluts are.

5. From an evo psych perspective, a woman’s feisty ability to fight back (when raped) signaled the ability and fitness to bear and rear children.

6. Mean girls are independent, much less work than girls who want to be romanced.

7. Men are more likely to get with outgoing, communicative women who pose little rejection risk. Promiscuous women excel at this.

8. Only very young men prioritize sexual access over character, mental stability, and selectivity.


Do you know women like this who can have any guy they want? What do you think their secret is?

Is it just players who go for these women? Or do they have some kind of universal appeal?

Guys, do you dig chicks like this? Enough to date them? Or do you hate them but pursue them anyway?

Do men look for one kind of girl to bring home to f*ck, and another kind to bring home to Mom?

Do girls need to learn some Bitch Girl Game to get your attention?

3 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • terre

    Quite a few of these are dead on, #2 in particular (although it’s also the least politically correct). Another reason is that relationships between high schoolers and increasingly people in their 20s are so trivial they can be based purely on raw sex appeal and the ease of obtaining sex.

  • Joe

    Wow. I’m a little surprised to find I relate. But from your list, only number 7 & 8 ring true to me.
    .
    How about this idea, Susan. It’s not true – it’s never true – that there are some women who can get any guy they want. It just seems that way. In my experience (and I think, the experience related in the song) there are plenty of physically attractive women that I found desirable for about two minutes, and maybe every guy does. Then their two minutes is over. There were a few that were desirable longer, but when I had a chance to see them in action my opinion changed. Physical attraction only gets you so far before the bitchy starts to weigh more, and that’s a long way from an LTR.
    .
    Young guys generally have no idea how to weigh or discern character. Some guys need to get to the point where they have something to lose before they learn to be careful about the people they need to trust. Others remain stupid that way, but, uh, everyone gets what they deserve in that situation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe
      Thanks, that’s a great insight. I heard that song and figured that the guy is singing about a woman he’ll love forever. (Projecting, I guess.) I didn’t even think about the strong feelings being short-lived. It does make sense that the youngest guys, who aren’t even thinking about real commitment, have nothing to lose by compromising morality for fun and sexual frolicking.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule

    Do you know women like this who can have any guy they want? What do you think their secret is?

    Is it just players who go for these women?
    Or do they have some kind of universal appeal?

    Guys, do you dig chicks like this?
    Enough to date them?
    Or do you hate them but pursue them anyway?

    Do men look for one kind of girl to bring home to f*ck, and another kind to bring home to Mom?

    Do girls need to learn some Bitch Girl Game to get your attention?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule
      Am I missing something?

  • SayWhaat

    Finally, the post I’ve been waiting for!
    .
    I have a couple of girlfriends who I’d label as promiscuous/teases, and I met a slut who literally thwarted my attempts with a guy I was interested in (it’s cool, I realized he wasn’t worth it after I found out about them). Over the years I think I’ve picked up a few things about “Bitch Girl Game” that might be useful for the rest of us Good Girls to know.
    .
    The thing about sluts is that they do have lower standards. I don’t have an explanation for why they also attract the good guys you want to be with, but I have a feeling it’s related to the whole sexual availability minus emotional availability thing (point #1). So don’t feel bad if you see them constantly getting attention from men. Chances are some of those men are guys you wouldn’t dream of getting it on with, ever.
    .
    Being independent and having your own life leaves you with little time to really focus on that one guy who’s stealing your heart. Also, have options. Diversify your portfolio to minimize risk. (Although I will say that I still struggle with this. I’m pretty monogamous-minded, to the point where it’s hard for me to meet other men when I’m seriously interested in one guy in particular. This is where sluts have the advantage–like men, they seem to be able to compartmentalize a lot better than the average woman.)
    .
    Because sluts are emotionally distant, they seem like a challenge. No matter how many times guys say they love to be approached, deep down they love to pursue. So they pursue the sluts, who seem to be the very girls they can’t “have” for their exclusive pleasure (i.e. “love slave”). Basically, promiscuous girls seem uninterested in relationships, which makes them fun to be with for guys, and accordingly guys spend more time with them than they probably would dating a girl who is actually relationship material. Over time, they get to know the slutty girl, and bam, all of a sudden there’s a heart to go with that vagina (if he’s not a player), and now he wants her to be his girlfriend because imagining her with other guys is just intolerable.
    .
    These are just my own theories, though. In my own personal experience, the most “success” I’ve had while dating seems to have been when I was genuinely uninterested in the other guy, or, if I was interested, when I was honestly way too busy to really spend time thinking about him (although I would encourage and “reward” his efforts).

  • Geoff

    Are you talking about “relationships” or marriages? Cuz guys will let a girl think they’re in a “relationship” if she’s hot and he wants to get into her pantaloons. And he nails everything that’s available when she’s not around.

    What do men want for MARRIAGE? Well, you want her to be hot. AND nice, single women of good character…

    Men like the challenge of an emotionally unavailable woman?! We’re still talking about straight guys, yes? If she’s HOT, WE WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HER! Her emotional availability/non-availability is irrelevant. “Men secretly love drama”? Again, we’re talking straight guys still?

    Stop trying to overanalyze men–we want to screw every hot girl on the planet (preferably the slutty, easy ones first)…until we’re ready to settle down and get married (some of us never get to that point). When we DO want to settle down–we want you to be hot, in shape, a good cook, sweet and kind to animals, virginal, supportive, non-spendy, funny, and hot. Did I say be hot?

    All the sluts who gave up the punani twice a week to the football stars will end up 30 years old wondering why Brett Favre doesn’t call them anymore…stop obsessing about the bitches getting alpha males and go to the gym. Read some Betty Crocker while you’re on the bike.

  • Pocahontas

    Ouch Geoff. Gotta agree with the simplicity with which men think (you described that very accurately), but the gym and Betty Crocker comment is gonna make some ladies verrrry mad on this site…

  • Ben

    The #1 rule in cross-gender discussion: don’t believe what they say, observe what they do.

    That said, I’ve dated and seen a variety of women. I’ve been engaged. I’ve been vanilla, I’ve done S&M, I’ve dated party girls, stay-at-home girls, innocent girls, sluts, madonnas, caring, bitchy, etc.

    For attraction, men value looks, availability, and variety over everything else. It’s true.

    For relationships, women forget just how much we value femininity. And the sad truth is, bitches, sluts, and party girls can be extremely feminine. Sluts accept you as long as you’re good lay – they’ll even take care of you and do all the girlfriend stuff until something better comes along. Party girls accept you and care for you as long as you’re fun. Bitches accept and care for you as long as you can maintain a position of authority and power over them.

    These women have seen more, done more, and can understand you as a person better than innocent girls. Innocent and nice girls tend to be boring and judgmental. They don’t accept you, they don’t give into to you, they have their own space and boundaries and rules. All of those things, while safe, can lead to a very dry relationship. They take longer to expose their secrets and vulnerabilities. That protects them against predatory men, which the sluts, party girls and bitches find difficult, but it also prevents them from forming deep relationships. As humans, attraction comes first, but we form long term bonds over shared vulnerability.

    Ultimately we all want to be accepted and loved by someone who can understand us. Men and women alike. If you’re always proper and nice, you’ll condemn rather than understand our frailties. It takes men long enough to admit them; please show some care when we get there.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Geoff

    Stop trying to overanalyze men–we want to screw every hot girl on the planet (preferably the slutty, easy ones first)…until we’re ready to settle down and get married

    and then this:

    stop obsessing about the bitches getting alpha males and go to the gym. Read some Betty Crocker while you’re on the bike.

    .
    So…..a 19 yo girl should look forward to 11 years of Home Economics. Let’s hope she doesn’t eat any of her delicious brownies! Seriously, this sounds like a really good plan! Between learning the domestic arts, working out every day, developing comedy routines, and rescuing injured or abandoned animals, I’m so glad you don’t expect her to go shopping as well. That would just be too much!

  • Mizzou Girl

    As my sweet southern granny would say “Honey, you have to be a lady on his arm, and a wildcat in his bed.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mizzou Girl

      As my sweet southern granny would say “Honey, you have to be a lady on his arm, and a wildcat in his bed.”

      That is good advice, but those days are gone! Now guys will happily squire the wildcat around. The lady is viewed as “boring and judgmental,” according to Ben. It’s a real dilemma for young women – how many years should they wait until guys are finally ready to appreciate their qualities? And by appreciate, I guess I mean “settle.”

  • SayWhaat

    They take longer to expose their secrets and vulnerabilities.

    Interesting. I was under the impression that it was in fact the bad girls that have the most walls–hence the “challenge” that men crave.

    It takes men long enough to admit them; please show some care when we get there.

    So now you’re arguing that men go after sluts because good girls and good guys both take too long to admit their vulnerabilities to each other–yet it’s the good girls who are expected to admit theirs first, to put themselves at risk of getting their hearts broken, and wait for the guy to eventually come around if they want a shot–just a shot–at a satisfying relationship?
    .
    This doesn’t answer the question of why guys aren’t willing to take the time to get to know a good girl and get in a relationship with her, but they’ll doing anything in their power to tie down a slippery slut. Even if the girl is promising sex and an emotionally fulfilling relationship.
    .
    Maybe I’m complicating this and I should just go back to Geoff’s “women have feelings, men have sex drives” way of thinking about things.
    .
    Oh, and by the way? This?

    Innocent and nice girls tend to be boring and judgmental

    Judgmental, maybe. It’s hard not to be judgmental when the guy you like is chasing after a slut who already has a boyfriend.

    But boring?

    Bull-f*king-shit.

    (Bitch enough for ya?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat
      Well done! You make some excellent points. I’m actually kind of surprised men are admitting so openly to preferring these women who are trouble. There are some new commenters in the mix, obviously younger than some of our regulars. It’s informative, though – I think perhaps I will need to write a post on Bitch Girl Game.
      .
      I would especially like to commend you on two concepts:
      1. Diversify your portfolio to minimize risk.
      Excellent tie-in to economics, and true.
      2. The successful equation seems to be Sexual Availability – Emotional Availability. Is it surprising that men would consider this the best of all possible worlds?

  • OffTheCuff

    OK, isn’t this one obvious? Get your cause and effect correct.
    .
    They don’t get boyfriends, because they are bitches.
    It’s because they are hot enough, they can have any guy they want, and thus GET AWAY with being bitchy.
    .
    Likewise…
    .
    It’s not being a douchebag that nets players more girls.
    It’s because they are attractive enough, they can GET AWAY with being a douche.
    .
    People will tolerate the negative when the positive (attraction) is enough outweigh it.
    .
    Plain girls and gameless guys don’t have the luxury of being whatever sex-specific form of “asshole” you prefer to use.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      People will tolerate the negative when the positive (attraction) is enough outweigh it.

      Yeah, that totally makes sense. Sad to say it was anything but obvious to me. Although I do think that some women dig jerks – the worse he treats them, the wetter they get. I’m wondering if there is a similar thing among guys. Do some guys just love the idea of conquering an ice queen?

  • SayWhaat

    Even if the girl is promising sex and an emotionally fulfilling relationship.

    Just to clarify, I was referring to good girls.

  • SayWhaat

    People will tolerate the negative when the positive (attraction) is enough outweigh it.

    This logic should hold in reverse. Assuming most men find relationships to be a negative, should attraction to a hot, sexy good girl be enough to outweigh it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Assuming most men find relationships to be a negative, should attraction to a hot, sexy good girl be enough to outweigh it?

      The good girl can’t prove she’s sexy until she really knows the guy, and trusts him. Most guys don’t stay in the game long enough for that to occur. Sluts are hot and sexy, and perhaps over time they can convince the guy they are also good, in their own way. I suspect that “good” in this case, means other guys are envious.

  • Mizzou Girl

    hot, sexy good girl

    No, because most guys see that as an oxymoron.

  • Geoff

    Ms. Walsh,
    I’m just speaking the truth–sometimes truth is ugly. P.S. If that 19 year old girl isn’t married before 11 years go by, she should drop her standards lickety-split.

    Men aren’t complicated. Be a slut or be a good girl, depending on your life goals (ride the alpha male carousel until age 28 or so, then a bitter marriage to a wussy who won’t mind your whorish past OR be a good girl and marry a nice man in your looks range when he’s ready to settle down and you’re no older than 25). If you’re going to be a good girl, ignore men who aren’t at least age 28 or so cuz they’re not done sleeping around. if you’re going to be a slut, just recognize no one will want to marry you unless he has no options (and BTW, your looks will be reduced due to aging).

    Opportunity costs don’t just apply to economics. Sluthood will cost you dearly. Don’t do it just because a bitchy girl you know has a “relationship” with some stud. He’s using her. Keep on the straight and narrow and plus up your positive aspects like I mentioned.

    Be upset about my post if you want–pretend men don’t like women who are hot, in shape, good cooks, etc. You could always watch a Sex in the City marathon, where late 30s women are in great demand for relationships by alpha males who have NO DESIRE to date a younger woman. In the real world, Mr. Big wouldn’t have even slept with Carrie, let alone married her–especially if he found out she’d been giving away her punani since age 18. SITC is the female version of World of Warcraft–a dangerous escape from reality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      If you’re going to be a good girl, ignore men who aren’t at least age 28 or so cuz they’re not done sleeping around.

      OK, this makes total sense. I usually say 25, but perhaps 28 is even better. And I’m totally with you on SATC – terrible. It got so many women seriously off-track in their understanding of men.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    If the guy has options, then he’d likely temporarily settle into a pseudo relationship with a slut/psycho because she’s substantially hotter & more sexually available/adventurous then her immediate competition at that point in time. As Vincent Ignatius can attest, the guy has no intentions of long-term commitment. She’s just #1 at that moment. Cheating and dumping are certainly on the horizon.
    .
    If the guy doesn’t have options… well, there’s your answer right there.
    .
    To make another point, whether it’s true, fair or whatever: There seems to be a larger percentage of sluts, psychos, and narcissistic princesses out there than ever before. Sure, there’s exceptions to the rule. But to most guys, it’s simply not worth the trouble to have to wade through all that bullshit. It’s a lot easier to just fuck the sluts & have fun/companionship with your buddies.
    .
    It would make a lot of sense for the good girls to differentiate themselves from the princesses, but I have no idea how they can accomplish that. It’s a mess out there, and there’s going to be a lot of innocent collateral damage from the mistakes our culture has made over the past 50 years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy Hendricks

      the guy has no intentions of long-term commitment. She’s just #1 at that moment. Cheating and dumping are certainly on the horizon.

      This is crucial. There are boyfriends and there are boyfriends. Nearly all of the 13 laxers that Karen Owen had sex with had “serious girlfriends.” Many women are willing to sacrifice their dignity, including looking the other way on cheating, just to say they are in a relationship. Proof again that a relationship is not a commitment.

  • SayWhaat

    hot, sexy good girl
    No, because most guys see that as an oxymoron.

    So what? I know tons of hot, sexy good girls. None of them get snapped up into relationships nearly as quickly as the trashy girls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Good girls can be young women who are hot and sexy, but want something real. They literally cannot stomach the idea of casual sex, but are ready to go crazy in the bedroom if they can have relationship sex. Men too quickly dismiss these young women as “frigid” or “prudes.” They’re apparently not worth the trouble. Will they have the last laugh in their mid-20s?

  • SayWhaat

    Other things I’ve learned about sluts:

    Have outsized self-confidence. Seriously. Act like you’re God’s gift to mankind, and you’d be perfectly happy just doing yourself if you weren’t such a generous person and wanted to share the wealth. If men aren’t paying you attention, f– them, there are plenty of others and they should be thinking about you all of the time.

    Then sit back and enjoy the wave of men cascading at your feet.

    .

    Sorry to be spamming this thread, this is just one of those topics that really hits close to home. I know so many girls who don’t deserve the boyfriends they have, much less deserve to have a boyfriend, and yet they always seem to get exactly what I want, even when I am willing to offer so much more than what they could ever give.

  • Kurt

    Off the Cuff is 100% correct in his statement:

    “They don’t get boyfriends, because they are bitches.
    It’s because they are hot enough, they can have any guy they want, and thus GET AWAY with being bitchy.”

    I personally don’t think that guys choose to date a woman who is a total bitch because the guys like a challenge. They only tolerate that crappy attitude if the woman is very hot and likely hotter than what the guy is used to getting.

    Sadly, I have encountered women in their 30s who have a crappy/bitchy attitude and it is not attractive at all. I assume that guys probably used to put up with their attitude when they were 20 and presumably much hotter.

  • Mike C

    OK…let me take a stab at answering this from the male perspective and as someone who dated for a long time (off and on 5 years) and married a “hot selfish bitch” and later divorced her. As a side point, looking back now knowing what I know now I’d bet she was pretty slutty as well but I was too naive at the time to know.
    .
    First off, no offense, but I think the female tendency is to overcomplicate this question because of the female psyche compared to the male psyche in terms of attraction, and also once again not being cognizant of the difference in opportunity set for the vast majority of males versus even the average female.
    .
    I have to say that this often appears to be true. The most awful, mean girls always clean up if they’re halfway hot. Or we find out that the biggest slut in the sorority is now officially dating the QB who everyone thought was just using her. We hear stories of hot guys literally begging bitchy girls to be exclusive
    .
    Firstly, the majority of the answer has already been answered in these sentences. “If they’re halfway hot”.
    .
    Male attraction 101. Physical attractiveness overrules pretty much everything else. We are visual creatures. Frankly, if I were God and could change our male coding, I would, because this single factor leads to a lot of misery for many guys. Hotness is factor number one. Nothing trumps hot.
    .
    The bitchiest, sluttiest, most stupid, most selfish girl who is a 9-10 in physical appearance is infinitely more attractive then the sweetest, fairly chaste, intelligent, giving girl who is a 5. That is just reality. That sucks, but it is reality. The only situation where the latter has some edge is if you are dealing with an older, more mature, and wiser guy who appreciates that the latter is better wife material. That rules out probably 80% of all men, and 100% of men under 25.
    .
    That physical attractiveness switch right there explains 80-90% of what nice, single women of good character are observing. I’ll bet in most of those Single cases the women is average at best or unattractive. The bright spot here is all this is fixable. Not many young girls are just straight up fugly if they lose any excess bodyfat, get fit and toned, do their hair right, and learn how to apply makeup to accentuate their strong points. Just like many “nice guys” don’t display one iota of social dominance or confidence, many “nice girls” in my experience devote ZERO attention to trying to look as physically attractive as possible with what they naturally have. There is a way to present yourself visually which basically leads to ZERO sexual attractiveness. Do your fingernails look like a trucker’s? Do you have hairy arms? Wax that.
    .
    Next point. Again, many women fail to really grasp just how limited the average guy’s options are (even some “hot” guys) in terms of sexual access and/or girlfriend. Hence the term “getting lucky”. If you are guy and you land a “hot” girl or even a “halfway” hot girl and now you have a steady supply of sex, you are going to be very, very, very, very reluctant to give that up if it had been 3 months, 6 months, 1 year since you previously got laid. Why? Because if you give that up, you have no idea when you might be getting regularly laid again. My ex-wife was a solid 8 to 8.5. I lost my virginity to her. She was selfish, and regularly put me through a mental and emotional wringer. When we were boyfriend/girlfriend (late 90s) I used to think about breaking up with her probably every other day, and then I would ask myself “If you don’t have her, when is the next time you might have sex”.
    .
    You might ask what about “hot” guys? Well, again, they are “hot” just looking at them, but we know female sexual attraction is more complicated. They might be beta types lacking confidence matching their outward appearance so they don’t have any more options then the regular guy. I’ll just about guarantee no alpha/super-alpha or guy with good Game is begging for exclusivity from a bitch or slut, because they know they have options and can replace her with a new source of pussy inside a week.
    .
    So bottom line, it comes down to physical attractiveness, and the lack of options most guys have in the dating/sexual marketplace.
    .
    1. Men like the challenge of an emotionally unavailable woman: I would make a move if I thought there was a chance she’d let me in.

    2. Men want to turn the biggest bitch into their personal love slave: Swept Away
    Hmmm…interesting. Seems like solipsism to me in that these 2 really apply to why women go for “bad boys”.

  • Mike C

    I think push-pull works on men too, and psycho bitches have the potential to provide that, as long as they can be very feminine.
    .
    I’ll second that. I do think push-pull is one of the aspects of Game that works on men (in contrast aloof indifference does not). Looking back, my ex-wife ran good push-pull game on me while maintaining a core feminity.
    .
    To what I already posted, I would add femininity as another factor as something that could drive a guy to a bitchy one over a nice girl with good character.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To what I already posted, I would add femininity as another factor as something that could drive a guy to a bitchy one over a nice girl with good character.

      The theme of femininity is a recurring one. I think I’ll write a post on this soon. If any of you would care to weigh in on how you define that, and what you find decidedly unfeminine, I’m all ears.

  • Mike C

    If the guy doesn’t have options… well, there’s your answer right there.
    .
    I mentioned this as well but it really bears repeating, and we know this is 80%+ of guys. Only natural alphas and guys who have learned Game have options, and that is a minority.

  • Mike C

    I know tons of hot, sexy good girls. None of them get snapped up into relationships nearly as quickly as the trashy girls.
    .
    Hard to dispute without actually seeing the girls in question, but I’ve found that women are very poor judges of what men find physically attractive because if they know the girl, her personality, etc. they tend to conflate that with just the pure raw physical appearance just as they do when evaluating guys. In another words, you may be overestimating the appearance of the “hot good” girls, and underestimating the appearance of the “trashy” girls.
    .
    Question for you? Angelina Jolie versus Jennifer Aniston.

  • Vincent Ignatius

    I think push-pull works on men too, and psycho bitches have the potential to provide that, as long as they can be very feminine. If a girl is taking care of me one day and calling me Satan himself the next, that’s good push-pull. But if a girl is masculine in private and goes psycho, she’s never going to win me over.

    Chicks love anecdotes, so I’ll give two.
    My slut crush is very nurturing. She took care of me after a couple of rough spots in my life and she loves to give back rubs. But every other day, she would go apeshit on me and tell me I was horrible for all the things I did. I started developing feelings for this girl.

    Amy, was not very nurturing. She was also disagreeable and critical. I always knew she had the potential to go psycho, but it didn’t happen until recently. I felt absolutely nothing as she started crying when I told her I was done with her.

    Amy is much hotter than my slut crush. Both are psycho bitches, but slut does push-pull, while the only thing pulling me towards Amy is her appearance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think push-pull works on men too, and psycho bitches have the potential to provide that, as long as they can be very feminine.

      OK, that’s one maxim for Bitch Girl Game. Of course, dear Vincent, no way I’m encouraging women to win you over. Heartbreak awaits at the end of that path. Still, it’s always fascinating to see what touches the most hardened of men.

  • Anonymous

    Sorry if this is supposed to be obvious, but many of the guys here keep referencing if the girl/woman in question is “feminine” / has enough “femininity”. What does the average guy consider to be very feminine?

  • SayWhaat

    @ Mike C:

    I’ll bet in most of those Single cases the women is average at best or unattractive.

    Okay. So then what about the really attractive single women who actually do deserve boyfriends? This doesn’t answer why they are left out of the SMP. Too pricey for the market, perhaps?

    If you are guy and you land a “hot” girl or even a “halfway” hot girl and now you have a steady supply of sex, you are going to be very, very, very, very reluctant to give that up if it had been 3 months, 6 months, 1 year since you previously got laid. Why? Because if you give that up, you have no idea when you might be getting regularly laid again.

    Okay, see my above point. If sex is the issue, this doesn’t explain why some hot good girls still can’t land relationships if they are willing to offer sex and more.
    .
    Look, I get that there isn’t a silver bullet for all of this. But so far a lot of the answers here seem to be contradictory. Then again, that’s human nature, I suppose.

  • http://gameforomegas.wordpress.com Omega Man

    The simplest answer is that these girls are hot. Hot girls get away with anything, so they are tempted to do anything. People can only abuse power if they have it; young women only have power if they are hot. If an average-looking woman is doing this, it is probably because she is dealing with men of relatively lower desirability.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Omega Man

      The simplest answer is that these girls are hot. Hot girls get away with anything, so they are tempted to do anything.

      Wouldn’t the hottest women hold out for commitment? That is, not sell themselves cheaply? If anyone could pull it off, one would think they could. Instead, if you are correct, they have a relationship based primarily on sex, with little emotional investment on the part of the guy. For most women, that would be disappointing, unless they don’t believe they can do any better. Maybe the validation of having a hot guy with them “in name only” is better than a less hot guy who adores them. It sounds extremely narcissistic. Can a woman be beautiful and not a narcissist?

  • SayWhaat

    Angelina Jolie versus Jennifer Aniston

    Haha, this is going to be tough. I think they’re both attractive, but I mostly judge them based on their character, which Aniston wins hands-down, even if she does seem a bit more boring. I still think Jolie is a bit weird-looking, though. :/

    .

    You’re right in that girls do judge other girls based on a number of factors, and I won’t deny that the bad girls I’ve observed are pretty hot (even if I don’t think they’re as hot as other guys think they are–one of them was classless, and the other one is incredibly flaky and immature). I do know of one slutty girl who has been judged unattractive by some (great) guys I know, but she’s never without a boyfriend, either. So what gives?

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Here’s the short simple answer: We live in a society that promotes short-term gratification seeking behavior, status whoring, and “self esteem” over all else.

  • puck

    Hey Susan,

    It’s important to clarify what kind of relationship there is between the psycho slut and the guy. I know quite a few guys who will often settle into shorter term relationships with less than stellar girls simply for a steady supply of decent sex. Most of the good men I know would never seriously consider actually marrying/LTRing these sort of girls.
    .
    1. You’re probably right that some guys like the challenge of the hunt. Succeeding can be a boost to the ego.
    .
    Re. 2 and 4. Men want to turn any hot women into their personal love slaves. Honestly, I’ve been with quite a few “nice girls” before and they often (but not always) are just “nice” and vanilla in bed. In my experience, crazy girls generally are better in bed. The old adage of a “lady in the street but a slut in bedroom” is ideal – to many “nice girls” only achieve the first part (even within the confines of an LTR).
    .
    3. Most men that I know don’t like drama. That said, point 3 is related to point7: social, outgoing and communicative individuals are typically more likely to have interesting lives, or at least to communicate their lives in more interesting ways – better story telling skills, etc. Relationship drama is not interesting, but a vivacious outgoing girl (whether slutty or not) is more likely to have interesting things to talk about. Intellectual discussion can’t maintain a relationship and (I would assume) isn’t particularly arousing for most. The fundamental problem with nice, shy girls is that there aren’t really that many interesting conversations to have about that time they stayed home when everybody else was out partying. And this is coming from a fairly introverted man.
    .
    Additionally, this is going to play in role in terms of sheer numbers, a social butterfly (again, whether slutty or not) is going to have the opportunity to meet many more guys than the nice girl who doesn’t meet a lot of new people. Not too sure what to say about this – introversion probably makes the dating world a more difficult place.
    .
    And, at least in my experience, slutty girls aren’t particularly any more outgoing or communicative than the average girl. Maybe I’m just reading too much into this point, but I really haven’t seen any connection between being outgoing, communicative, and adventurous in non-sexual areas of life and a tendency towards promiscuity. Though there certainly is a lower risk of rejection in approaching a girl known to sleep around.
    .
    4. I don’t really get the comparison of an independent woman to a woman wishes to be romanced. Maybe it’s your wording? or me? Independence is good. Romance is good. Co-dependence and demands for chivalrous and out-of-date mating rituals are not. Even nice girls have to accept that the SMP has changed – this is not to say that they should become sluts – they absolutely should not – but that women have to realize that it’s not the (idealized) 1950’s anymore and they shouldn’t be expecting flowers and dinner for every date.
    .
    5. The ability to discern character is typically a skill that develops with age, so it makes sense that younger guys tend to focus primarily on the physical. You are correct, here.
    .
    .
    I might be way, way off base here, but when you say “nice girls” I tend to think of all the “nice guys” who bitch about women only chasing assholes. Well no, quality, interesting men want to date quality, interesting women, not people who sit at home and think of themselves as nice because they don’t really do or experience anything that might offend someone.
    .
    Maybe I just like crazy girls?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @puck

      I might be way, way off base here, but when you say “nice girls” I tend to think of all the “nice guys” who bitch about women only chasing assholes. Well no, quality, interesting men want to date quality, interesting women, not people who sit at home and think of themselves as nice because they don’t really do or experience anything that might offend someone.

      Thanks for the great insights. I admit I thought of the “nice girls” the same way – as beta females. 40 years ago the nice girls and guys would have found one another. Now all the women want a socially dominant male, and those guys are – clearly – choosing sluts, at least in the short-term.

  • Mike C

    What does the average guy consider to be very feminine?
    .
    One thing that springs to mind immediately is playful coyness. The other is attention to the details of her appearance. Things like nails (I love French-style fingernails) and pedicures and painted toenails. Obviously, that is not all encompassing but just a few things that popped to mind.

  • Badger Nation

    @SayWhaat,
    .
    “Sorry to be spamming this thread, this is just one of those topics that really hits close to home. I know so many girls who don’t deserve the boyfriends they have, much less deserve to have a boyfriend, and yet they always seem to get exactly what I want, even when I am willing to offer so much more than what they could ever give.”
    .
    Us beta guys can tell the same stories in reverse. For all the gender-specific angles we discuss at HUS, this is one that cuts pretty well both ways. I’ve been upfront with SW about disagreeing with the tone of some of her comments but most of what she writes sounds like it could have been written by me in my hard-beta days. I have much empathy for the position.
    .
    @Kurt,
    .
    “I personally don’t think that guys choose to date a woman who is a total bitch because the guys like a challenge. They only tolerate that crappy attitude if the woman is very hot and likely hotter than what the guy is used to getting.”
    .
    This is one place where the men need to form a cartel (a la the old-school female sex cartel). Hot women can be bitchy because they know if one guy is turned off another one is waiting behind him to kiss her ass (with or without chocolate sauce on it). I personally don’t give bitches any attention at all as a matter of personal policy.
    .
    “Sadly, I have encountered women in their 30s who have a crappy/bitchy attitude and it is not attractive at all. I assume that guys probably used to put up with their attitude when they were 20 and presumably much hotter.”
    .
    There are general tendencies that hotter women can be bitchier (and more attractive men can be bigger douchebags), but there’s an awful lot of noise in the system from people who are sorely mistaken about how much distasteful personality they can sustain vis a vis their visual value. Sadly for these people, the shunning they receive as a result of their shitty personality-unattractive body combination drives a feedback loop that usually causes them to get more bitter and bitchy. We can’t discount social influences – too many not-that-hot girls getting pumped up as “sexy bitches” by their friends, or video game guys getting shot down by girls and hearing “it’s not you, it’s her” from compatriots.

  • Mike C

    Haha, this is going to be tough. I think they’re both attractive, but I mostly judge them based on their character, which Aniston wins hands-down, even if she does seem a bit more boring. I still think Jolie is a bit weird-looking, though. :/

    :)

    I do know of one slutty girl who has been judged unattractive by some (great) guys I know, but she’s never without a boyfriend, either. So what gives?

    Whats the caliber of these guys? Again, if they don’t have options, maybe this is some of the best sex they have ever had or hope to have. They probably are not planning on marrying the girl.

  • SayWhaat

    In another words, you may be overestimating the appearance of the “hot good” girls, and underestimating the appearance of the “trashy” girls.

    I’m going to run the risk of sounding narcissistic here, and I know that all you can do is take my word for it (or not), but I’m a good girl, and I’m pretty hot, lol. I’ve been told that by plenty of guys (who weren’t men I previously knew). And the fact that I can say that out loud (er, in an internet forum) is saying something, considering my Ugly Duckling –> Swan backstory.

    And still, my experiences don’t match up to anything you’re saying.

  • Mike C

    Okay. So then what about the really attractive single women who actually do deserve boyfriends? This doesn’t answer why they are left out of the SMP. Too pricey for the market, perhaps?
    .
    Deserve?
    .
    It is really hard for me to answer your question without a lot more information, and I have to take your word that these women are really attractive. A really attractive women with even below-average to mediocre flirting skills should be able to get men to approach her. Next step is how many guys have these women rejected in say the last few years of the ones who have approached. It is a bit disingenous to complain about not having a boyfriend when the last 20 guys who approached you/hit on you all got shot down. I suspect like that one college girl who was quoted her in a blog post, something like 70 to 80% of men are not dateable in her eyes. So you are left competing for the 20 to 30% who are.
    .
    Let me ask you this. If I recall, you are a college age woman. How many guys have approached you/tried to strike up a conversation with you since starting college. How many of those did you follow up with in terms of dating?
    .
    Okay, see my above point. If sex is the issue, this doesn’t explain why some hot good girls still can’t land relationships if they are willing to offer sex and more.
    .
    How long though? College guys with choices aren’t going to wait.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      Personally, Angelina J strikes me as a psycho slutty bitch. And it’s definitely working for her. What’s the “right” answer?

  • SayWhaat

    @ Mike:

    Whats the caliber of these guys? Again, if they don’t have options, maybe this is some of the best sex they have ever had or hope to have. They probably are not planning on marrying the girl.

    Wrt the psychobitch: the guys WAS a guy with options (probably one of the hottest guys I’ve ever fallen for), and he was still begging her to break up with her boyfriend for him. Of course, this incident did make me reevaluate whether he was a quality guy (and I came to the conclusion that he wasn’t).

    As for the unattractive slutty girl….well, I have no idea what she’s like in bed, but it seems to me like the guys were in love with her well enough. Although I will say that one of her ex-boyfriends was uncomfortable with her sexual history.

    Marriage is not the point, though. We’re talking about short-term relationships, the kind that people under the age of 24 are interested in. Girls who are poor prospects for any relationships are getting these options, and even then, there are girls who aren’t marriageable who are getting married, according to Susan. So. What. Gives.

  • Mike C

    @SayWhaat

    Start with a “Hot Good Girl”. Here might be one issue. Guys talk, so many of the top alpha guys might know the hot good girls who don’t put out. Except for the most sociopathic who want to “turn you”, the rest simply are not going to waste their time with you when they can go for the hot slut.
    .
    At the same time, you are going to be too intimidating for regular guys. 99% of regular guys are not going to have the balls to approach you unless you sending IOIs that are the equivalent of flashing neon. Approach anxiety is very real for guys. If I were single, and even after studying and learning Game, approach anxiety would be my hardest sticking point before getting back into the swing of things. Most guys have suffered a nuclear rejection, and often it comes from a hot girl. I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but if you are hot girl, really hot, the average guy is scared to death to try and talk to you.
    .
    For you and the other “hot single good” girls, I would say if you really want a “good guy” as a boyfriend you have to identify your potential targets and really send the IOIs so the guy can make a move.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Guys talk, so many of the top alpha guys might know the hot good girls who don’t put out. Except for the most sociopathic who want to “turn you”, the rest simply are not going to waste their time with you when they can go for the hot slut.

      OK, this is a real clue. I’ve suspected this for a while, but wasn’t sure it was true. So guys will not bother with a virginal beauty in college. That tells me that the girl you want to bring to your room and the girl you want to bring home to Mom are definitely not the same girl.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I think you (and girls in general) have too high of expectations for a short term relationships… If I don’t see myself with you down the road, why would I waste my time in making any kind of investment in the relationship?

  • SayWhaat

    How long though? College guys with choices aren’t going to wait.

    Well, apparently the wisest course of action is, “until after a relationship”. Offering sex beforehand is called hooking up. Which, surprisingly, doesn’t always lead to a relationship (news?!)
    .

    How many guys have approached you/tried to strike up a conversation with you since starting college. How many of those did you follow up with in terms of dating?

    *sigh* I hate sharing my personal life over the internet, no matter how anonymously. Let’s just say that of the guys who have approached me, most of them told me they didn’t want a relationship (AFTER telling me they had feelings for me/indicating their interest). The one guy who did ask me out on a date (after spending an entire semester getting to know me), didn’t call back after the second date. And the most recent guy…well, I told him I didn’t do hookups and would prefer to get to know him by dating. He waited a month and a half after that to tell me that he didn’t want to be in a relationship, because he was “afraid of what might happen” (yes, Badger, that is literally what he said).

    Whatever. Love is war.

  • Mike C

    As for the unattractive slutty girl….well, I have no idea what she’s like in bed, but it seems to me like the guys were in love with her well enough.
    .
    Again, I’ll have to take your word for it, but I think it could be possible the guys had little real emotional involvement and just saw her as a convenient piece of ass for the time being. As you said, these are short-term relationships where marriage is not the point.
    .
    If future wife/mother is off the table and we are talking a few month “relationship”, then many of the “good” girl/ “bad” girl distinctions drop out of the equation and the two main variables become hotness and sex.
    .
    and even then, there are girls who aren’t marriageable who are getting married, according to Susan. So. What. Gives.

    Well, they are probably mostly marring clueless beta provider types. I can’t remember which comment thread as I am getting e-mails on like 4 different threads, but Susan just had an excerpt about a wife who husband is clueless as to her past activity.

  • rend

    Susan, I’m not quite sure why you reacted the way you did to Geoff. One either advocates a return to modesty or one champions pushing the existing boundaries into debauchery. Obviously the Betty Crocker is a bit much but it did seem as though you were offended.

  • SayWhaat

    At the same time, you are going to be too intimidating for regular guys.

    Okay. Whenever a girl says she thinks her intelligence or whatever is too “intimidating” for guys, the other guys on these threads have immediately said that this is not true, so I don’t know if I should buy this explanation.

  • Mike C

    If I don’t see myself with you down the road, why would I waste my time in making any kind of investment in the relationship?
    .
    Word. Truth. Might not be pleasant but there it is. Here’s the thing, and guys tell me I’m wrong (no, not you Tom, only biological guys). You are either potentially the “one” or just another source of p**** which is really why the entire notion of a 3-6 month “relationship” with an expiration date is sort of nonsensical. If you are definitely NOT the one, then it is time to move on to other p**** if the options are there.

  • Mike C

    Okay. Whenever a girl says she thinks her intelligence or whatever is too “intimidating” for guys, the other guys on these threads have immediately said that this is not true, so I don’t know if I should buy this explanation.
    .
    I’m a guy, and I went from 22-year old virgin to being successful with hot women so I hope you’ll accept that what I am telling you is 100% truth. I’ve got no reason to make shit up.
    .
    We (Men) do NOT find intelligent women intimidating as a general rule. Intelligence is not a characteristic that triggers intimidation/fear. That is just feminist claptrap because we generally don’t like masculine women. Extreme hotness is very intimidating to most men, not all men. Naturals are not intimidated, betas are.
    .
    In my beta AFC days, I would have been terrified by the prospect of approaching a very hot girl.
    .
    I assume you have some guy friends, maybe some beta types, ask them how many really hot girls they’ve approached the last 2 years. Now ask them would they like to date/f*** those girls. When they say yes, ask them why don’t you approach/talk to them?

  • Badger Nation

    “It’s a real dilemma for young women – how many years should they wait until guys are finally ready to appreciate their qualities? And by appreciate, I guess I mean “settle.””
    .
    Again, flip this around for guys – how long should beta guys wait until women are ready to appreciate them? I say the guys shouldn’t wait at all. Learn to add some hard edges and don’t treat the world too much better than it treats you, without sinking to its level. Or if you feel like committing SMP terrorism, game hard and pump and dump.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger
      OK, then, it sounds like a smart “good” girl will do well to add some hard edges, do a lot of push-pull, and market herself as a sexually crazed prize that must be earned.

  • Mike C

    “It’s a real dilemma for young women – how many years should they wait until guys are finally ready to appreciate their qualities? And by appreciate, I guess I mean “settle.””
    .
    Well….as I’ve said a number of times, if that is really what they want, a committed loyal monogamous relationships with a partner who is truly emotionally invested, they don’t have to wait long at all if they identify the right target market. Same-age male peers it probably isn’t going to be.

  • Badger Nation

    SW,
    .
    “Okay. Whenever a girl says she thinks her intelligence or whatever is too “intimidating” for guys, the other guys on these threads have immediately said that this is not true, so I don’t know if I should buy this explanation.”
    .
    You and Mike C are not in opposition. The context of the “intimidation” canard is usually a “successful” woman who is a ball-busting bitch but can’t admit to herself that she comes off that way. So instead of admitting that men are put off by her attitude and bringing her work face on a date, they rationalize that it’s their success or intelligence or some positive trait that is intimidating the men, because you know men are afraid of women and that’s why they are so macho, etc etc.
    .
    That’s totally different than hotness – if you’re hot, men WILL be intimidated – to approach, to escalate, to be confident on a date, to stand up to her shit tests, etc. Men may demur on LTRs/MTRs because they fear the power balance doesn’t favor them over the long term, which is what I suspect has happened with you. It is quite the paradox that young women have most of the power in the college SMP, and what they really want is for a man to act like HE is the powerful one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It is quite the paradox that young women have most of the power in the college SMP, and what they really want is for a man to act like HE is the powerful one.

      Touche. There’s a lot of heartache explained right there.

      Men may demur on LTRs/MTRs because they fear the power balance doesn’t favor them over the long term

      I know of several instances where I believe this has happened. How can a woman reassure a man? It’s not unusual for women to fall for guys less physically attractive than themselves, but if the guy is sensitive to it, it becomes the elephant in the room. And of course, his fear/insecurity about this will kill her attraction for him pretty quickly if she is unable to reassure him.

  • SayWhaat

    The good girl can’t prove she’s sexy until she really knows the guy, and trusts him. Most guys don’t stay in the game long enough for that to occur.

    So what should the strategy be here? We need to hold out and not offer sex while dating until after we are in a relationship, but we should still show promise of a sexy side to keep him interested? How far should we go, then? Making out? Second base? What’s the limit until he starts viewing you as just another piece of action?

    I usually say 25, but perhaps 28 is even better

    I once dated a guy who was 7 years older than me. On a fundamental level we weren’t compatible, but he was one of the better dating experiences I’ve had. On that note, he had a huge problem with the fact that I was way younger than him. Naturally, it fizzled out.

  • rend

    “Word. Truth. Might not be pleasant but there it is. Here’s the thing, and guys tell me I’m wrong (no, not you Tom, only biological guys). You are either potentially the “one” or just another source of p**** which is really why the entire notion of a 3-6 month “relationship” with an expiration date is sort of nonsensical. If you are definitely NOT the one, then it is time to move on to other p**** if the options are there.”
    .
    I’m so glad at least that someone’s finally said this. The weasel word “long-term” or “long-term relationship” always bothered me because it’s so arbitrary and stupid.

  • Megan

    It’s interesting that the one who took care of Vincent and the one he developed feelings for he calls slut, and the hot one who wasn’t nurturing and he felt nothing for he calls by name.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megan
      Yeah, I noticed that too. I’m not sure what it signifies – Vincent is a very complicated dude.

  • filrabat

    Call me strange, but…

    …personally, as a guy, I don’t see what’s sexy about challenges. Trustworthiness, faithfulness, openness, and kindness are what I valued more even in my early 20s. Sorry, but not all guy’s like challenges – contrary to widespread opinion. To me, challenges are for competitive events like sports, NOT for a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat

      Call me strange, but…

      …personally, as a guy, I don’t see what’s sexy about challenges.

      That is wisdom. How much happiness have people forfeited because, to paraphrase Woody Allen, they didn’t want to belong to any club that would have them as a member? It’s so juvenile, and yet so prevalent. It’s the flip side of “forbidden fruit” and some people never learn to do without this sense of conquest.

  • Mike C

    That tells me that the girl you want to bring to your room and the girl you want to bring home to Mom are definitely not the same girl.
    .
    Yup. I have to admit there were a few girls I was with that never got introduced to Mom, or any family, or close friends.
    .
    OK, this is a real clue. I’ve suspected this for a while, but wasn’t sure it was true. So guys will not bother with a virginal beauty in college.
    .
    In this age, I don’t think so. To put it crudely, its like having a Ferrari that you are not sure you’ll get to drive. What’s the point? To look at it and admire its beauty?
    .
    Here’s the thing. There was a time, before I was even born, where a 22-year old male was a MAN, not a boy. He was looking for a wife at 22. A 22-year old male today is a boy. Boys like playthings. He is looking for someone to play with, and when he gets bored with that toy to discard it for a different toy. I’m not exactly sure when BOYS become MEN these days and realize there is more to life then the newest, shiny plaything but it definitely isn’t the early to mid 20s based on what I hearing from guys I know.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    “So guys will not bother with a virginal beauty in college.”
    .
    Top 20% won’t. Less experienced guys would probably sell a kidney for the opportunity.
    .
    “That tells me that the girl you want to bring to your room and the girl you want to bring home to Mom are definitely not the same girl.”
    .
    Not necessarily true. In most cases, the standards for the latter are a lot higher than the former. I think it can’t be repeated enough: Hookup Value does NOT equal Relationship Value.

  • Mike C

    Personally, Angelina J strikes me as a psycho slutty bitch. And it’s definitely working for her. What’s the “right” answer?

    Admittedly, I haven’t done scientific polling here, but I suspect the majority of men would consider Angelina Jolie more sexually attractive. Obviously, personal preference vary. Jennifer Aniston is physically attractive as well.
    .
    I suspect though if you asked the same question of women you would get a radically different answer because most women would allow their perception of her as a “psycho slutty bitch”, or homewrecker, or skank to influence a judgement of pure physicality.
    .
    My point is I am always skeptical when I hear women judge other women’s physical attractiveness because I don’t think they are being objective. I’m not sure if women are literally incapable of separating raw, physical attractiveness from evaluations of personality. I’ve been sitting in the living room with my GF and sister where they comment on some woman, and I’m thinking “I don’t know who you are looking at, she is hot, and if I was single I’d bang her”.
    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My point is I am always skeptical when I hear women judge other women’s physical attractiveness because I don’t think they are being objective. I’m not sure if women are literally incapable of separating raw, physical attractiveness from evaluations of personality.

      We are absolutely incapable of that. The good news is that we’re incapable of it with men too. That means a guy with an attractive personality can easily bump himself up 2-4 points, or even more. I know one hot young woman who fell for a charmer who was a 2. When her friends met him they joked that the Make a Wish Foundation had set them up. He actually turned out to be a total cad – I have no idea where a guy that unattractive got such tight game, but he was a natural.

  • Lurky Lu

    @saywhaat “The thing about sluts is that they do have lower standards”
    @geoff “All the sluts who gave up the punani twice a week to the football stars will end up 30 years old wondering why Brett Favre doesn’t call them anymore”

    Interestingly, the “lower standards” that the sluts have in terms of who and how they sleep around also apply to who and how they marry, which means that they don’t necessarily end up old and alone. The tart who bangs football players will quite happily marry one who’s washed up with a paunch, a crappy job and percocet addiction as a result of all his injuries. A lot of those women are actually quite practical and adaptible, which Darwin thought to be greater factors in survival of the fittest than what we would consider to be “fitness”. I would even bet you that sluts have higher marriage rates than the really religious girls at the opposite end of the spectrum. Besides, sluts of both sexes (high in socio-sexuality) tend to marry each other.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lurky Lu

      Besides, sluts of both sexes (high in socio-sexuality) tend to marry each other.

      Interesting point. I’ve argued that it’s the promiscuous men and women having sex with each other that comprises that 20%. That suggests than when we look around and see sluts with boyfriends, the guys are most likely those dominant males who are themselves mansluts. Of course, their promiscuity enhances their reputation, and the virginal beauty may long for the douchey lax player.

  • Badger Nation

    “OK, then, it sounds like a smart “good” girl will do well to add some hard edges, do a lot of push-pull, and market herself as a sexually crazed prize that must be earned.”
    .
    That’s not what I said at all. I said guys must “add some hard edges,” not “become a sociopathic dark-gamer.” The same would go for beta females – don’t come off as codependent and save the nurturing for people who have earned it.

  • Mike C

    I know of several instances where I believe this has happened. How can a woman reassure a man? It’s not unusual for women to fall for guys less physically attractive than themselves, but if the guy is sensitive to it, it becomes the elephant in the room.
    .
    Absolutely do NOT flirt with other men, nor try to seek other male attention. It is going to make him feel like he has to constantly compete for you and “win” you over and over. Outside of that, I don’t know what else. I can very much appreciate that no woman is going to want to have to constantly reassure a guy. In these situations, the guy has to have some confidence.

  • Badger Nation

    “don’t come off as codependent”
    .
    I might add or painfully shy. As a recovering shy person myself, it’s just something people need to fix if they are going to be successful in our social world.

  • Jess

    An amusing thread susan.
    To be honest I’m as baffled as you are.
    I know women who seem intoxicated with bad boys.
    I know men who are infatuated with mean girls.
    And get this…. Neither gender is always that hot….. Really
    .
    Maybe humans have a sado masochistic streak. I dunno.
    .
    One of my best friends who is in her 45 th year, has never,never been alone.
    She was married twice to a guy who was an out and out ten.
    She treated him like shit. I used to have a real go at her about it,
    But he married her twice.
    Her attractiveness? Maybe a 6?
    .
    Dunno how she did it. She has charisma and flirtiness I guess .
    She’s an outliner but definitely a mean girl. I’m a total sap by comparison.
    .
    She’s now in the process of adoption with the nicest guy you could meet who is also seriously wealthy.
    She should bottle her mojo and sell it.

  • Pingback: There Are Women Who Actually Think They Get No Male Attention « Omega Virgin Revolt

  • NGII

    @SayWhaat
    .
    I wonder if looking at guys on an individual basis would help to identify guys that have the POTENTIAL to be a great relationship material, especially they are young (under 25). These guys may be the exception than the rule, but they are forthcoming great prospects – because they are spending most of their time working on self-improvement and character other than spending time on the SMP that is so hostile to them because most girls would not take unfinished products.
    .
    A less-physically gifted guy (skinny/short), even if he is quite socially suave and capable to stand up on his own, wanting a great relationship with a nice+hot girl, would not be under the radar of nice girls before he has a great career/ becomes rich. These guys are only visible to smart girls who can see their potential and stress characters over looks.
    Seems to me, for nice, hot girls wanting a relationship, developing the ability to identify GREAT RELATIONSHIP POTENTIAL is very beneficial.

    P.S. I like your “swagger” to defend yourself and your crave for the truth. You’re also more analytical than your peers. For me, I would consider these to be attractive. If I see a girl like you in real life, I would like to get to know her even I’m very likely to be shot down .

    P.P.S I’m an uncoventional college guy.

  • Jess

    Mike c,
    I think you are struggling for the technical phrase to describe angelina’s malaise.
    Allow me to enlighten you….
    .
    Its a Latin nomenclature….
    .
    The lady is ‘ as mad as a box of frogs’
    .
    Or in more earthy english parlance, a total ‘window licker’.
    .
    Happy to be of assistance, Jx

  • filrabat

    @Susan

    It’s the flip side of “forbidden fruit” and >b>some people never learn to do without this sense of conquest.

    Like CFO’s or some other ambitious corporate type enginering hostile takeovers and excessive cost-cutting primarily for their own glory (i.e. pad their resume, or have at least a footnote in Barron’s or the WSJ) – even if the shareholders do go along for a GOOD ride?

    On the political historical side: Genghis Khan plus the usual gang of people we associate with obsessive military conquest for their own glory or for it’s own sake?

    Flaunting dominance just for the sake of flaunting dominance is just not healthy behavior!

  • rend

    I can only reinforce and re-recommend what Mike C has said on the issue so far. Men don’t “pursue” modest/virginal girls because marriage isn’t considered even remotely important, let alone necessary; why bother if you don’t see yourself being with the girl for the rest of your life? The old instincts that recoil at a girl’s promiscuity cause confusion and anxiety because on the one hand, he’s being given the message that flitting in and out of casual relationships is what’s done at his age, and on the other he can’t overcome his primordial feelings. How do you even court (meaningless word now) such a girl? What would the proper rituals even be?
    .
    And how many of these girls even exist anyway?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @rend

      The old instincts that recoil at a girl’s promiscuity cause confusion and anxiety because on the one hand, he’s being given the message that flitting in and out of casual relationships is what’s done at his age, and on the other he can’t overcome his primordial feelings.

      This is fascinating, and reassuring in a way. The truth is, both men and women express a fair amount of discomfort with hookup culture, and a little over half of both sexes say they hook up hoping for a relationship. It’s pretty clear that the majority of young people, even when they get “lucky,” find that casual hookups are stressful and often incongruent with their personalities/character.

  • Badger Nation

    “Guys, do you dig chicks like this? Enough to date them? Or do you hate them but pursue them anyway?”
    .
    I don’t, but I’ve known a few guys who dated women they couldn’t stand – until the lights were off. The whole “relationship” was really a sort of game of chicken to see if they could get another bang from her without cracking from putting up with spending time with someone they hated. “I hate this chick, but she’s hot and great in the sack.”

  • Lurky Lu

    @rend “And how many of these girls even exist anyway?”

    You’d be surprised. Not many women, let alone young women, have the stomach for casual sex. I would wager that “hook up culture” has resulted in there being more college virgins today that there were in the 70’s, when you’d get a boyfriend and then wait a respectable time to lose your virginity with him (which was an even bigger deal at that time). Nowadays, if a girl wants her cherry popped, she pretty much has to do it with a guy who’s not very familiar or committed — something a lot girls feel understandably squeamish about. So I think a lot of girls are balking at what really is a bad arrangement for them, and as a consequence are holding off on sex for longer than they’d like to.

  • 108spirits

    Why do bad girls always have boyfriends? Because they’re hot and they put out.
    #
    Ladies, don’t look at their so-called relationships and get jealous. Those boyfriends are renting, not buying. I know it’s something that’s programmed into your head since you were a tween, and lately reinforced heavily on Facebook, but being in a relationship is NOT a status symbol.
    #
    Most men can’t get laid at will while they’re young, and the best option to get regular sex is to have a girlfriend. Until they are ready for marriage, they will get in a relationship with some hot but flawed girl, who would put out. It’s a lot easier to break up with her afterwards.
    #
    Those relationships always started with the guy thinking “hmm, not my dream girl, but she’ll do” and then after a while, his scarcity mentality got the best of him. Usually those relationships don’t last very long, but if they do, it’s entirely accidental or the guy gets carried away or gets too complacent with his Game that he can’t secure the next source of regular poon, thus clinging on to what he currently has.
    #
    There’s another reason to why those decent men are with bad girlfriends: you “good” girls only notice that they’re decent when they are in a relationship. When they’re single, they wouldn’t even register on your radar. I bet you there are way more decent men who are single than the ones in relationship with bad girls, but they are invisible to the complaining (as if they ever do anything else!) ladies.

  • NGII

    “Guys, do you dig chicks like this? Enough to date them? Or do you hate them but pursue them anyway?”
    .
    Analytically speaking, I would argue that a lot of guys will go for that if the chance present itself. I don’t think they delibrately dig for trouble. A lot of guys, especially when they are young, grab whatever is available (from moderately attractive to superhot babe), and go from there. Oftentimes, they make a very quick decision of how to handle the girl – to date/p&d. Slutty girls confuse guy by push-pull and make guys slow to decide. Hence it seems like guys “stay” around slutty girls.
    .
    Personally, I think dating a girl without a good character, a life goal and an open mind is a waste of time for me. Again, I’m a weird guy.

  • http://www.colonzone.org Henway

    I think for several reasons:

    1) Bitchy women usually are more outgoing and as a result can get more boyfriends.
    2) It’s bitchy, per se that men are attracted to.. it’s sexy. Sexy and non-bitchy is still attractive to us…. We don’t want no bitchy, obese (or semi-fat woman).

    It all comes down to attraction… bitchy and other annoying traits are a red herring.. it’s the sexiness.

  • SayWhaat

    @ NGII:

    These guys may be the exception than the rule, but they are forthcoming great prospects – because they are spending most of their time working on self-improvement and character

    The three qualities I look for in guys are the following: intelligence, ambition, and character. If he lacks any one of these three qualities, it’s a dealbreaker.

    That said, I don’t think many girls of my sort are looking for guys who are already successful/suave/etc. Rather, we’re looking for guys who exhibit the potential to become so, which is exactly what you’ve said. And from my personal experience, these guys (who are NOT alpha douches, by the way) like me, and they like dating me, but they don’t want to be in a relationship with me, even though I’m not asking for more or less than what we had already been doing. It’d be nice to find one who actually does want to be a boyfriend.

  • SayWhaat

    @ 108spirits:

    There’s another reason to why those decent men are with bad girlfriends: you “good” girls only notice that they’re decent when they are in a relationship

    Blah blah blah blah blah.

    *yawn*

  • Badger Nation

    By complete coincidence, I just read the following quotation which might have some bearing on the blog’s subject matter:

    “I can look at a chick who’s a little out of shape and if she turns me on, I won’t hesitate to date her. If she’s a good f**k she can weigh 150 pounds, I don’t care.”
    Arnold Schwarzenegger in a 1977 interview with Oui magazine

  • puck

    @ SayWhaat
    .
    Okay. Whenever a girl says she thinks her intelligence or whatever is too “intimidating” for guys, the other guys on these threads have immediately said that this is not true, so I don’t know if I should buy this explanation.

    You should believe the explanation that the vast majority of guys are absolutely terrified (or at a minimum, experience serious anxiety) to talk to physically beautiful girls, it’s true. Not all guys of course, but the majority. It took me a long time to be able to approach women who where above an “8,” even those who were regularly on the periphery of my own social group. And I had to be pretty drunk to even attempt it the first couple of times.

    Intelligence is not intimidating (assuming here that we’re talking about college guys who are at least one SD above average IQ), but rather tends to be used as an excuse by hard-charging, purely business, typically masculine women to excuse a generally poor and unattractive personality. Now, if you were talking about a female lawyer from a top school with a 140 plus IQ talking to a plumber with an average 100 IQ, then yeah, that might be intimidating for the guy, but that doesn’t strike me as a very common occurrence.

  • Spikey

    Nah, most of the times its the deserving girls who get boyfriends. Because boys like those kind of girls!!

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Why ask why?
    .

    1.) They Try harder. It’s more of a priority to & for them, and they act accordingly. And it works like a cinch.
    .

    2.) Yes, sorry to say, a very significant part of the equation here is the ‘missing mass’ of men. They’re being currently studiously ignored as BF/LTR/Anything material by most gals. Because they think they can do so blithely due to their current relative status and hypergamous seeking function. Sure things might ‘change up’ somewhere around say 40 something. But by then? As they say it’s a ‘whole different world’.
    .

    3.) Ergo, those considering themselves ‘most’ or even ‘More’ deserving? Have & demand higher standards & wildly unrealistic expectations than the market will bear commonly. And a market correction for this common misconception may take years to come to fruition. If ever.
    .

    This has been the shorter VJ. As no one reads the longer stuff! Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VJ
      We do so read the longer stuff.

      They Try harder. It’s more of a priority to & for them, and they act accordingly. And it works like a cinch.

      I think you’ve hit on something here. Effort. Active, rather than passive.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    Susan asks: ‘Can a woman be beautiful and not a narcissist?’

    A: Can a rich powerful man be humble and genuinely generous to all? At the Same young Age?

    Somewhat unlikely, innit?

    This has been the shorter VJ. Cheers!

  • OffTheCuff

    I’ve argued that it’s the promiscuous men and women having sex with each other that comprises that 20%.

    I think this can’t be true. If it was, then why do we hear of women complaining of pump-and-dumps from alpha men? If they all matched up perfectly one-to-one as you say, then wouldn’t women would be happy to move on to the next guy and we wouldn’t hear any complaints?
    .
    I think the amount of complaints on this topic, shows precisely how lopsided it is, and how that 20% does not match up to 20% on the other side. It’s the amount of “good girls” who still choose to sleep with alpha males, even if it’s just occasionally, but not enough to make them promiscuous*. And do I say choose, unless it’s actual rape via physical coercion. They’d rather have their heart broken by an alpha than have a dedicated beta — thus the Roissy maxim “five minutes of alpha beats five years of beta”.

    * Few women will admit to being a slut, anyway. I know one who slept with 30 men by 17. She does not think of herself as a slut. Slut always is self-relative, meaning as “more promiscuous than ME”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      If they all matched up perfectly one-to-one as you say, then wouldn’t women would be happy to move on to the next guy and we wouldn’t hear any complaints?

      You may be right, but the truth is that even most promiscuous women want relationships. Karen Owen was thrilled when guys acted affectionate, wanted pillow talk, etc. She was hardest on guys who clearly P&D’d her. Many young women are employing promiscuity as a default strategy for getting a guy, or at least getting short-term validation in the form of sexual attention from guys. I do agree that many young women get burned by an alpha or two, but aren’t in the regular rotation.
      .
      As for Roissy’s maxim, I think it applies to a certain subset of women, perhaps significant, but not all women.

  • Höllenhund

    Interesting point. I’ve argued that it’s the promiscuous men and women having sex with each other that comprises that 20%. That suggests than when we look around and see sluts with boyfriends, the guys are most likely those dominant males who are themselves mansluts.

    You’re definitely onto something, Ms. Walsh, but we must keep in mind that promiscuous men = alphas = the top of the male hierarchy = simply put: the men who stand out from the male crowd. Their female counterparts are NOT the sluts. The women on the top of the female hierarchy who stand out from the female crowd are basically the 9s and 10s, not the sluts. Most sluts are the 5s-7s, and I’m sure they are much more than 20% of all women. I know statistics don’t really prove this, but I don’t believe that the statistics about female promiscuity tell the truth (women massively underreport, they rationalize that many of their casual sex acts don’t even count as sex etc.). OffTheCuff is right on the money about this. Men and women are judged by wholly different standards. Women aren’t judged by their access to casual sex.

    I think what we have here is simply that alphas, unlike other men, have many options and therefore find most women just boring and avoid commitment. Throughout history alphas have mainly reproduced through cuckoldry, which explains why they have fewer legitimate children than betas. Simply put, unlike other men, they don’t need to enter lifelong commitment (marriage) to fulfill their main evolutionary task. The bygone matriarchy largely kept their behavior in check and basically drove them to pair-bond with the women on top of the female hierarchy, the 9s and 10s. But that’s gone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      the men who stand out from the male crowd. Their female counterparts are NOT the sluts. The women on the top of the female hierarchy who stand out from the female crowd are basically the 9s and 10s, not the sluts.

      I’m not sure about this. The 9s and 10s I know (and have therefore seen) are reluctant to compromise – they want it all, because they understand how good looking they are. They want the alpha to commit, like he would have in the old days. And they are definitely not slutty. I don’t doubt that there are plenty of gorgeous promiscuous women – but there is a definite group of very pretty women who are still hard to get. They are the female counterparts, but they have essentially priced themselves out of the market, at least in college. There are a disproportionate number of women 5s-7s who are making a play for the top guys, even for one night, no question.
      .
      So I guess one question I have is – do beta guys also like crazy bitchy slutty women? For some, I’d imagine that having such a woman fall in their lap would be like winning the lottery!

  • modernguy

    This is like asking why are girls attracted to cads. Most people are just shallow and vain until they learn their lesson. Stick with what you know is right and hope for the best. You can’t always get what you want but you might get what you need.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @modernguy

      Stick with what you know is right and hope for the best.

      Well said. There is a way to lead a principled life, and it often involves forfeiting short-term gratification while hoping for long-term rewards.

  • rick

    We would first need to know how emotionally and spiritually fulfilling these hot bitch/hot guy relationships are before we can know if we should feel we are missing out on something.

    I am sure there is plenty of drama and hot sex, if that is what one craves.

    Look at how many A-list celebs destroy their lives. Their social and financial power gives them license to do as they please, for the most part.

    While I might like to own a house as nice as theirs, and having the dating/sex options they have may have some appeal, we must look at the whole of their life and weigh it.

    Clearly, fame/money/hot sex is not a recipe for happiness for many who find it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @rick
      Good point – in fact, I do believe that the quality of many of these “relationships” is quite poor. Few of them seem to include real feelings of something like love, and some involve very poor treatment of one another. It’s not unusual for me to hear from a heartbroken young person who confesses that the person who just dumped them criticized and ridiculed them, or was extremely unreliable, for example. I think for both the beta males and beta females, it’s a question of being on the outside looking in, and we can only say, “be careful what you wish for.”

  • OffTheCuff

    I should explain a bit better. While I think the 20%-20% “perfect parity” of sluts is incorrect, I think there is some truth to the idea that most sluts of either sex do find each other. And that’s the sensational news we hear about. Say it is 15% of those men and 20% of women freely slut it up *only* with themselves.
    .
    However, that’s 5% of men still unaccounted for. This is the spread that generates the pump and dump complaints from women. To which, I believe those 5% are running over a larger part of the “good girl” population — far more than 5% of women, because a player won’t work on a single woman by definition.
    .
    And every time he scores and keeps her in his harem, that takes her out of the running for a “good guy” who does want a relationship. While those good girls are getting played, the beta boys don’t exist in their eyes. A single player can string along a roomful of “good girls” women in a year concurrently, which forces celibacy on the same amount of men: if each player keeps 5 unique women from dating a good guy for a whole year, than that 5% spread now has forced 25% of the men to be dateless..
    .
    Is the reverse true? Can a woman string along a bunch of good men? It sure can! But as long as there are more male players than female, then the aggregate effect will be to “take out” more men than women of the SMP completely. Collateral damage, if you will.
    .
    My conclusion, therefore, is somewhat in the middle of Roissy’s conjecture and Susan’s. It’s not as bad (for beta men) as Roissy suggests, but it’s not as good as Susan thinks. It’s not that all or most women are on the carousel or sluts, it’s that one man can prevent lots of good relationships from forming, proportional to the amount of willing women. It takes more than two to tango here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff

      it’s that one man can prevent lots of good relationships from forming, proportional to the amount of willing women.

      That’s a brilliant insight. It’s the opportunity cost.

  • Aldonza

    I believe the male attraction to bitches is more than the simple “she’s hot.” Physical attractiveness for men is more important, but we’re talking about the emotional attraction that keeps these women engaged long after he should’ve tired of her shit.
    .
    Could it be as simple as men saying they want one thing, but responding in an emotional/unconscious/irrational way instead, much in the same way women say they want nice guys but respond to cads?

  • Mike C

    @ Off the Cuff
    .
    Unless I misread her point, I don’t think you and Susan are that far apart.
    .
    Ultimately, what it comes down to, is you have a segment of women in the 5-7 range who are either willing to really “slut it up” with a high number of 8-10 alphas (Karen Owen is a perfect example of that 20%) or who are willing to spend a quite lengthy period of time being an alpha’s Tuesday girl or Thursday girl or whatever (part of his harem) rather then engage a male with the equivalent SMV for a basically exclusive relationship. I really have no idea what that latter group percentage is.
    .
    I think it would make a fascinating study if you could actually get honest answers, but I really believe the typical 8-10 female isn’t that slutty. They don’t have to be. I think the vast majority of promiscuous women are 5-7s. Hot enough to generate an erection, but not hot enough to put any serious investment/effort in. Then it just becomes a question are they willing.
    .
    For the most part, I don’t see this changing radically. Hope and the capability for self-delusion are very powerful. Like their male peers of the same age, my sense is the typical 18-24 year old isn’t very introspective, mature, or forward thinking so they are going to act on what their emotional impulses are telling them. Hot guy showing interest, I’ll run with it. In all fairness, if the average young guy had the same level of sexual access to 8-9 women, he would do the same thing even if for example he was being used in all sorts of other ways.
    .
    As a side point, I think this might even be more prevalent amongst 30-45 divorcees then young women. The super-alpha cad I work with is literally running through cougars like a kid on Halloween going through his bag of candy. He was showing me pictures of the MILF he has lined up for tonight, and telling me a story today about a late 30s divorcee that his brother and a bunch of friends gangbanged. No doubt, she’ll make a fine wife for some other guy once she has finished “exploring her sexuality”.

    Like I’ve said before, I’m out of the game, in a happy monogamous relationship for 5 years, but I’ve got my ear to the ground. This guy I work with has great stories every week so I get a good sense of what it is like out there for a super-alpha cad. A few weeks ago, he was telling me about the girl he just met that day giving him a blowjob in the car on the way to the gas station to get beer and cigarettes but when they got back he couldn’t seal the deal because she had a boyfriend. Kind of surreal the ludicrous lines that some women draw between what is OK, and “crossing the line”. I can blow you but not fuck you. LOL

    Like many things, I think Roissy overstates the case with the 5 minutes of alpha versus lifetime of beta, but there is an element of truth to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Like their male peers of the same age, my sense is the typical 18-24 year old isn’t very introspective, mature, or forward thinking so they are going to act on what their emotional impulses are telling them. Hot guy showing interest, I’ll run with it.

      Absolutely, no question! You will never see women turn away from hot guys – some say “Well, I know he’s a douchebag, and I don’t plan to get attached. I’ll beat him at his own game.” Then the hamster wheel starts to spin and she is hopelessly subservient to his whims. I’ve seen it dozens, no hundreds, of times.

      Wait – I thought the cad at work was getting married. But he was getting road head just a few weeks ago from a stranger?

  • Mike C

    I believe the male attraction to bitches is more than the simple “she’s hot.” Physical attractiveness for men is more important, but we’re talking about the emotional attraction that keeps these women engaged long after he should’ve tired of her shit.
    .
    Could it be as simple as men saying they want one thing, but responding in an emotional/unconscious/irrational way instead, much in the same way women say they want nice guys but respond to cads?

    .
    No. No. No.
    .
    Some of these responses are funny because they really reveal the average woman has no earthly conception just how arduous a task it is for an average guy, even an above-average looking guy with ZERO game to secure a reliable supply of pussy.
    .
    I suppose how could she. Unless she is a complete troll, there is some guy willing to have sex with her.
    .
    Trust me, a guy will put up with an incredible amount of shit if he is getting laid regularly, and has little confidence he can find a replacement in a reasonable length of time.
    .
    From the last time I had sex with my ex-wife (many years ago) to my next experience after that, I had 9 months of involuntary celibacy. Now I’m not a male model, but I’m 6’3″ well built, and my face is decent enough given that I’ve gotten enough compliments over the years. Yet I went 9 months without getting laid when my confidence was very, very low, knew nothing about Game, and was depressed.
    .
    Seriously, I really can’t overstate this point enough. As much as this has been discussed, most women still seem to not get it. My brother used to bounce at a strip club. There were regulars who would spend thousands of dollars to have hot, young girls grind on them for a 3 minute songs. These are guys who will never have any sexual outlet in their lives.
    .
    I hope some of the other Game guys will chime in, especially guys who were more AFC types that changed.
    .
    Everyone wants to overcomplicate this. It really is as simple as a guy isn’t going to want to part with quality, steady sex even if everything else along with it is quite miserable.

  • rend

    Mike C is again completely on the ball. The vast majority of men will put up with a lot from their girlfriends or wives because the sheer arduousness in finding another partner is so terrible to consider. It’s the same reason why divorced men remarry far less often. There’s not much else that can be said about it; it’s really that simple.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Mike C is again completely on the ball.

      Always.

  • Lurky Lu

    What Mike C just said.

  • Lurky Lu

    Or rather, what mike c said at 2:28

  • Lurky Lu

    @ hollenhund “promiscuous men = alphas = the top of the male hierarchy = simply put: the men who stand out from the male crowd. Their female counterparts are NOT the sluts.”

    Oh no! There are plenty of non-alpha men would engage in promiscuous sex. I used to work with street people and you’d be blown away by how much action those guys get! Kind of like muscled guy with no teeth banging obese schizophrenic gal tonight, then on to skinny heroin addict girl with one eye the next night. And there are beta guys who just aren’t that picky.

    Whether or not someone smokes seems to be a not-necessary-or-sufficent but still good indicator of the possibility that they might be promiscuious.

    So much of the pissin’ and moaning about promiscuity seems to be focused on what the 6 and ups are doing.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Aldonza/emotional attraction….I think human beings tend to automatically pay attention to the uncertain and the challenging, just as the human vision system notices things that are moving more than it does background. If you have 3 kids and one is always good, one is always a little monster, and the third is sometimes good and sometimes awful, you’re probably going to spend more time thinking about #3. Similarly for relationships…of course, the uncertainty by itself doesn’t create attraction, but it does increase attention which gives other attraction factors a chance to operate.

  • Matt T

    Women are attracted to masculinity, and men are attracted to femininity. One common hypothesis for the presence of Alpha males states that they have a genetic propensity for more testosterone production, a hormone which varies widely in concentration among men.

    B!tches, sluts, and hos all tend towards femininity, despite possessing the sexual mores of men. And currently, we are at a time when more women than ever are suppressing their femininity for whatever reason. That alone explains the phenomenon.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt T

      B!tches, sluts, and hos all tend towards femininity, despite possessing the sexual mores of men. And currently, we are at a time when more women than ever are suppressing their femininity for whatever reason. That alone explains the phenomenon.

      Fascinating. If you’re right, it’s another nasty consequence of feminism.

  • Mike C

    Another quick thought related to my previous point.
    .
    As far as I know, there are no women developing courses, DVDs, etc. and conducting seminars charging thousands of dollars to teach women how to land a guy for a relationship.
    .
    In contrast, you have a thriving industry where guys charge thousands of dollars with a large quantity of guys willing to pay to essentially learn how to get laid on a regular basis. And most of these guys “on paper” are normal, “nice”, good guys. Yet many couldn’t get laid to save their lives.
    .
    So again, this really explains a good chunk of what you are seeing her in this question. Once a guy “gets lucky” and lands some steady supply, and if he is part of the 80% who doesn’t have choice or options, he is going to stick with what he has. This is speculation on my part, but my guess is “slutty bitches” tend to be mroe aggressive/assertive versus wallflowers so there is a higher probability of a guy landing one of them simply by statistical chance.
    .
    B!tches, sluts, and hos all tend towards femininity, despite possessing the sexual mores of men. And currently, we are at a time when more women than ever are suppressing their femininity for whatever reason.
    .
    I would agree with this.

  • Mike C

    but my guess is “slutty bitches” tend to be mroe aggressive/assertive versus wallflowers so there is a higher probability of a guy landing one of them simply by statistical chance.

    Not good wording on my part. I probably should say extroverted versus introverted instead of aggressive/assertive.

  • Matt T

    Another thing is that many of the “nice girls” value themselves too highly. Even if they’re not the hottest, they’ll still think of themselves as deserving the SAE president, or the football player, or the investment banker, or whatever.

    If they get a chance with the guy, they might even try to make him “wait 3 dates”. Errrr, that’s not really going to work. High-status men can have harems if they choose to, they’re not going to bother fussing over you when they can move on to other girls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If they get a chance with the guy, they might even try to make him “wait 3 dates”. Errrr, that’s not really going to work.

      Waiting three dates is now out of the question? No doubt this explains why this blog has followers – all the young women who don’t go for the random hookup – or even have the audacity to want to know the guy first – are not worth fussing over.

  • SayWhaat

    Even if they’re not the hottest, they’ll still think of themselves as deserving the SAE president, or the football player, or the investment banker, or whatever.

    Uhh for what it’s worth, I immediately write off any guy who tells me he’s an investment banker. I dunno, I-banking draws a certain “type” of guy, and they’re usually douches. Not to mention the lifestyle (or lack thereof) is just awful and therefore not ideal grounds for any relationship.

    If they get a chance with the guy, they might even try to make him “wait 3 dates”. Errrr, that’s not really going to work.

    So what will work? I asked earlier about what the strategy and limitations should be for a good girl trying to keep a guy in the game, and I’m still waiting for an answer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      So what will work? I asked earlier about what the strategy and limitations should be for a good girl trying to keep a guy in the game, and I’m still waiting for an answer.

      There’s lots of good info coming in here. No one guy is going to have the perfect strategy. Once this thread is complete, I’m going to analyze it and I’ll write a post about it. I have a feeling I’ll have to play devil’s advocate – it seems like there’s one winning strategy for college women, and a different one for women once they graduate and have access to older men.

  • SayWhaat
  • puck

    @ Aldonza
    .
    Mike C’s reply pretty much sums it up:
    .
    Some of these responses are funny because they really reveal the average woman has no earthly conception just how arduous a task it is for an average guy, even an above-average looking guy with ZERO game to secure a reliable supply of pussy….Everyone wants to overcomplicate this. It really is as simple as a guy isn’t going to want to part with quality, steady sex even if everything else along with it is quite miserable.
    .
    We can talk all we want about introversion/extroversion, sluts, challenges, drama, etc. all of which might play a minor role in attracting men to crazy/slutty/subpar women, but the simple fact is that it is incredibly difficult for the average guy to get a steady supply of sex. If he finds it, he will put up with a lot shit in order to maintain that supply because if he loses it he has no idea how long it could take to find another girl. I know a lot of good, smart men with a lot of potential who have had droughts of sex that lasted over a year.
    .
    On a practical note to “nice girls:” read Susan’s posts on flirting/eye contact, learn to interject subtle sexual tension into your conversation if you are interested in a guy, dress better (on occasion, where a skirt or top that’s shorter than what you would normally wear) and make sure that you go out to where the type of guys you want are. Taking care of yourself and learning to be socially adept is challenging if you are not naturally gifted with such skills, but the rewards for the hard work and difficulty are well worth it.
    .
    Too many “nice girls” and “nice guys” display no or very little sexuality and they’re going to have a lot of trouble generating sexual interest by presenting so blandly. Susan has posted some absolutely excellent advice on this site, I suggest applying it on a regular basis, not just on that Saturday night when you’re out partying.
    .
    Take that from a former “nice guy” who went through that exact process. Demonstrating that you possess sexuality does not make one crazy, or an bitch, or a slut, nor does it demand that you sleep around with a lot of men.

  • ExNewYorker

    I think Mike C. and Badger have explained a lot. To reiterate, using slightly different words: hotness modulated by availability with some variety on the side. That pretty much explains a lot of male behavior in this area.
    .
    The fundamental issue I think a lot of women (even on this blog) do not understand, is that for a young man, there is a fundamental scarcity of something which he desires: sex. It’s not terribly unusual to see young guys going through high school/college without any sexual access whatsoever, and even for those who have had some sexual access, it’s sporadic, or feast or famine (mostly famine). The majority of guys don’t have women actively pursuing them, but instead must be the pursuers and the fact that women are hypergamous results in the majority of those guys being overlooked. So, a hot bitchy/slutty/non-deserving woman is better than the alternative. Now, as a man gets older, particularly if he has gained confidence (and thus, options), then this will begin effect will begin to wane and he will consider other qualities much more highly (though some measure of physical attractiveness is almost always still a criteria), particularly if he is LTR-minded.
    .
    A good example from a recent movie is Eduardo, from The Social Network. Harvard student, so he’s a smart guy, but overlooked by women until he gains some “fame”, at which point he hooks up with a hot, slutty girl in one of the bathroom stalls, and she becomes his girlfriend. He keeps her around, even though he slowly realizes she’s kind of a psycho, but eventually tires of her craziness (and realizes he has options now) and breaks up with her. It would be a pretty safe bet that this hot psycho woman would not have a problem getting another such boyfriend.
    .
    And even for the guys who do have women throwing themselves at them (which is a small percentage of men), more often than not, there’s no reason not to partake in the hot slutty women. It’s not like the plan to marry them :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker
      I actually find the Eduardo illustration extremely helpful. I remember thinking how lucky he clearly felt in the beginning, and how after a while he found his gf just exhausting (at a time when he was already exhausted). The cost/benefit ratio of sex with a psycho clearly increases over time.

  • Mike C

    @ SayWhaat
    .
    OK, I’ll try to answer your question from my perspective. Firstly, assuming high-value guy with options, we have to assume he is one of the very small minority of guys under 25 actually wanting a relationship as opposed to a variety of hook-ups. No amount of strategy/tactics is going to change a guy who wants a variety of hookups into a guy wanting to be in an exclusive relationship.
    .
    Now either there is going to be chemistry/compatability or there is isn’t. You can’t force that. In the few examples you gave me earlier, maybe the chemistry wasn’t there. The one guy clearly had no desire for an exclusive relationship, and didn’t have the cajones to be forthright about it early.
    .
    I think you asked about what base when. I think there is a reasonable pace of escalation for someone the guy is thinking “hey, she might be girlfriend material” as opposed to just another random hookup. Obviously, kiss on the first date is fine, and the guy should have the b*lls to go for it, if the chemistry is there. In my opinion, even a make-out session is totally fine and doesn’t say “slutty hook-up”. Guys are going to try and escalate. It is our version of the “shit test”. It is up to you to put the brakes on. Fair or unfair, you asked me for strategy so I am telling you how it is. If you are candid about your boundaries, then a good guy should respect for that. If not, all he is looking for is the quick lay.
    .
    I’m not sure I can give some set algorithm for on Date 2 go this far, Date 3 this far. After a certain amount of time you both should know if you really like each other a lot or not. I’m not exactly sure what your personal beliefs are but if it is no sex until exclusive relationship, then you simply have to state that and see if the guy accepts it or walks. I was still “seeing” other girls when my current GF and I first had sex, but I knew she wasn’t going to accept that situation for very long. You have to be willing to tell the guy, “I am not going to share you with other girls”. Again, either he’ll accept that or walk. Ultimately, you have to know what you are willing to live with or not.
    .
    Most of that above is generalities. It is hard to give more specific advice without concrete examples. If a guy asked me how do I get a girlfriend/get laid, I’d need to know where his sticking point is. If he can’t even approach/start conversations, then anything else is useless. If you have guys approaching you/starting conversations/asking to spend time with you that is one thing, if you don’t despite being good-looking then you are sending out some negative signals to guys who might be interested.

  • Joe

    Something that relates to the discussion:

    … but only barely, Say Whaat.
    .
    Really, the Internet is and always has been a visual medium, and qualities other than physically attractiveness are not going to register as easily. The fish she caught was more determined by the stream than by the bait. Lots of junk in that stream.
    .
    I understand the point you’ve been trying to make, but Ness’s little “experiment” doesn’t go very far towards proving it. Call it an anecdote, but please don’t consider it a singular form of data.

  • SayWhaat

    Hm, thanks Mike C. I just have a couple more questions.

    Regarding the untouched virginal beauties that guys don’t bother with…is it in their best interest to mention that they are virgins? Or should they keep that to themselves until they are in an exclusive relationship, at risk of the guy heading for the hills? (I’m excluding relatively inexperienced women from this, as it’s apparent that having a low sexual count is clearly favored.)

    Also, when is it appropriate to bring up the dreaded “what are we?” talk? I hear from some people it’s reasonable to ask this after dating for a month, and I hear from yet others that girls should keep their mouths shut and live and enjoy the moment until the day she finally gets to change her relationship status on Facebook. What’s the better course of action?

  • Kurt

    @108Spirits

    You wrote:
    There’s another reason to why those decent men are with bad girlfriends: you “good” girls only notice that they’re decent when they are in a relationship. When they’re single, they wouldn’t even register on your radar. I bet you there are way more decent men who are single than the ones in relationship with bad girls, but they are invisible to the complaining (as if they ever do anything else!) ladies.

    I agree with this 100%. A lot the “decent men” are single for long stretches of time before they end up with the bad girlfriend. Either the good girls just don’t take notice of those guys when they are single or it is possible that the good girls don’t give those guys any reasonable discerable signs of interest. If the good girls don’t somehow let the decent guys know they like them, a lot of those decent guys are going to end up with the bad girlfriends who do make their attraction known.

  • Geoff

    Wish there was a voting button for best response or best solution–I’d obviously vote for my first post, but Mike C on 7 Jan at 2:28 p.m. was pretty good too. Seems like most of the female posters are ignoring what guys are saying. I think I can sum up why (based especially on SayWhaat’s 7 Jan 4:46 post, where she asks what will keep a guy even after I made it perfectly clear). Going to do my female impersonation now:
    .
    “Well, yes, I can see how guys will put up with a bitch if she’s hot. But isn’t there some better, more complicated, emotionally-laden method to explain it? Because I’m not that hot nor slutty, and you telling me that hot slutty women get to be bitches because young hot alpha guys only care about how good I look makes me…makes me…makes me want to reach for Season One of Sex And the City.”
    .

    .
    – If you’re not hot, do the best you can with what you’ve got–work out, makeup, clothes.
    – Don’t be hypergamous (don’t sleep around, always looking to “trade up” your boyfriends for a better deal).
    – Tell guys up front you expect to wait until marriage for sex. If they continue to date you, IT DOES NOT mean they accepted what you said at face value, it just means MAYBE they do. Could be an alpha wanting to plant his flag on your vajayjay.
    – Have a sweet, sunny disposition.
    – Don’t be a gold-digger
    – Date nice guys who are in your looks range instead of offering up yourself to get toyed with by alpha males until you’re used up at age 30 and wondering “where did all the nice guys go?”
    – If you can’t stand to look at a bitchy girl who has a hot alpha male guy–go find yourself a nice boy who has some religion and a steady job and it won’t bother you so much. Feminism has ruined women today because there are 20 Lifetime movies every week telling women they can have the looks of a 6/10 and still end up with Mr. Big in a loving, stable, MONOGAMOUS marriage. Don’t believe the fairytale.
    .
    This is from a guy who offered up carousel rides for 25 years before I finally got religion and settled down at age 45. I was a man-whore who gave up an internship at Wells Fargo my junior year of college to lifeguard at the beach. Ignore my advice and my younger cohorts will use you up and spit you out. I weep for most women on the planet who don’t listen because they refuse to believe men are this shallow–we are. My 19 year old niece is entering the battlefield, and she is woefully ignorant of what young men will do, fair and unfair, to trip her up in her plan to marry a nice man.

  • Mike C

    @ SayWhaat
    .
    Regarding being a virginal beauty, I think the answer is it depends. In my opinion, if a guy really likes you and has some emotional investment, he isn’t going to “run for the hills” if you tell him you are a virgin, especially not if he has any maturity. Frankly, I would think most guys would find it appealing. I know I would. To put it crudely, it would be like being the first to drive a brand new Ferrari that has zero miles on it.
    .
    That said, I can think of situations where it would be problematic, one of which I have personal experience with (I had sex with one virgin). If you really don’t like the girl that much and have zero emotional investment, the sex might be mediocre to bad, and messy. Why bother if it is just a convenient piece of ass? The other negative situation is when you think the girl could become a total clinger and get way too emotional when you have no emotional involvement. I had a girl who was quite aggressive about her interest, and thought and communicated that she could keep her emotions in check (she wanted to be my fuckbuddy). She was wrong, and ended up getting hurt. In those cases, revealing you are a virgin are likely to cause the guy to “run for the hills”, but why would you want to lose your virginity in either of those situations. Seems odd to “save yourself” that long only to lose it in an act totally devoid of any meaning or emotion. Kinda like living below your means and saving money only to one day just burn it all.
    .
    I was watching the premiere of Jersey Shore last night, and Vinny who is a player (but pulls off the sweet guy routine) didn’t want to hook up with Snooki despite the fact she was throwing herself at him. Why? Because she gets emotionally attached and wants emotional investment from him and will ruin his Game for other chicks. A lot of guys with options are not going to want to hook up with a girl who is going to get emotionally attached because it is just unnecessary drama. That is the reason for potentially avoiding virgins
    .
    Not sure when to bring up the “what are we” talk. I mean I can’t give a specific time frame to the week and day. Definitely NOT until the guy has some emotional investment. If the guy is really into you, really likes you as a human being, cares about you, then it makes sense to bring this up because then he’ll have to start thinking “what do I really want from this girl”. If it is before he has any emotional involvement, you are just going to seem pushy, and he’ll likely hit the eject button.

  • Mike C

    On a practical note to “nice girls:” read Susan’s posts on flirting/eye contact, learn to interject subtle sexual tension into your conversation if you are interested in a guy, dress better (on occasion, where a skirt or top that’s shorter than what you would normally wear) and make sure that you go out to where the type of guys you want are. Taking care of yourself and learning to be socially adept is challenging if you are not naturally gifted with such skills, but the rewards for the hard work and difficulty are well worth it.
    .
    Too many “nice girls” and “nice guys” display no or very little sexuality and they’re going to have a lot of trouble generating sexual interest by presenting so blandly. Susan has posted some absolutely excellent advice on this site, I suggest applying it on a regular basis, not just on that Saturday night when you’re out partying.

    .
    This is an excellent point that I think some don’t get the nuance of. Being SEXY does NOT equal being SLUTTY. I think it is on point that perhaps many “nice” girls lack sexuality and femininity so they are not sexually attractive in the same way that many “nice” Beta guys are not attractive either.

  • Matt T

    There’s a saying among people in Game…”A virgin’s LMR* is measured in months, not minutes”.

    *LMR refers to last-minute resistance, basically when a girl panics before sex and resists (but usually secretly desires sex). It’s up to the dude to find a way past it.

    I don’t really see the point in fussing over a girl for a few months when you should really be having sex by Date 3. Then again, I never was the kind of guy to obsessively call girls or stalk them or whatever. I just put out what I have, and if they’re not interested, fine.

    So yeah, I’m guessing that being a virgin will be a turn-off for most guys just because of the stigma of “prudish Jesus freak” attached to it. I’m aware of the evolutionary reasons for guys preferring virgins, but those don’t apply so much now IMO.

  • 108spirits

    @Kurt

    On paper I’m considered decent boyfriend materials. When I was younger and didn’t know anything about Game or qualifying women, I dated what turned out to be a psycho HPD (one of the Cluster B) chick for a while. At the time there were a few girls interested in me (as I later learned) but none of them made it as clear or as easy for me as her. As soon as I became official with that girl, the rest came out of the woodwork! Then when it was known how crazy she was and I broke up with her, they asked why the hell I dated her and not X. I responded something along the line of “she said yes to all of my date requests”.

    @MikeC

    I’ve made the point here a few times that feminism has done its best to destroy the polarities (masculinity and feminity) and promote androgyny at the expense of sexuality. As a result, most modern women mistake eroticism for sexuality. Being sexual doesn’t mean acting like a pornstar! Again I reckon they should watch the older movies from Hollywood’s Golden Age more. Those actresses did not act slutty at all, but you can just tell from their demeanors that they won’t disappoint you in bed.

    One big reason a lot of guys avoid the older virgin women is that those women appear asexual. A friend of mine used to only want to date such women, and dated two. He’s very serious about relationships & commitment, P&D isn’t even on his mind, but in both cases, he ended up with serious blue balls (one was an entire year, the other was on and off over 2 years). The latter told him, before they broke up for good, that she loves him but she only wants to have sex in marriage, AND she also wants to pursue her career as a doctor for another 6 years before she’s ready for marriage. He really likes that girl, but ran for the hills after what she said. That girl has seriously no idea how important sex is to men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Again I reckon they should watch the older movies from Hollywood’s Golden Age more. Those actresses did not act slutty at all, but you can just tell from their demeanors that they won’t disappoint you in bed.

      Again, it’s great advice. The witty banter with sexual tension is so great in the old flicks. They made flirting and conflict between the sexes high art. It drove the sexual tension very high, and they (and we) always had to wait for the “climax.”

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    I have to say, I haven’t noticed a lot of bitchy girls with boyfriends (I might not run in the right circles) however, the girlfriends I do have who most constantly have boyfriends are ones that mostly didn’t feel like their life was complete without one AND they were super good flirts (I use the past tense, because both the ladies I am referring to are now in LTRs).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deidre
      It does seem like being extroverted/flirtatious is something that has resonated with a lot of people in this thread. Men who are relationship-minded are more likely to consider women who make it clear they’re available, I guess, than initiate pursuing a woman who has not indicated any previous interest.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Geoff:

    Don’t get ahead of yourself. I think Mike C’s responses, as well as the comments of several other men here, have been far more enlightening than yours.

    For the record, I’m not religious, and I’ve never watched a single episode of Sex and the City.

    I’m under no illusion that men aren’t shallow.

    So you can take your “women stay in the kitchen” theories and shove ‘em where they belong.

  • karen

    Susan, I’ve been waiting a long time for somebody to address this issue.

    Thank you Mike C. Your input has clarified a lot for me. Seriously, I could have used this advice in college. With regards to femininity, in my situation, my looks are such that I can’t wear lipstick at all because it just looks so sexual on me. During the day I wear as little makeup as possible and I still get stares from guys. I only wear eye makeup and lipstick when I’m going out to a club and then I get attention from everybody. My point is, that as a shy female, I don’t like that type of attention. I don’t dress as a feminine bad girl because I’d get too much attention if I did and I prefer to blend in. And I was that shy good girl in college who was ignored by many randy guys.

  • autumnpari

    Hi Susan,

    I think number 6 is really the key as far as college students are concerned. I feel like a lot of the comments are coming from people who are well-meaning and have great advice, but many are also not in college right now. And as long as we’re talking about the hookup scene in colleges in the present day, effort is the big thing. Frankly, college students don’t have a lot of time, especially at elite schools where hooking up is more prevalent because people are busy investing effort in class, jobs, grad school apps, interviews, fellowships, etc.

    My sister goes to a Big Ten school, and she says she sees a lot more serious relationships; she thinks I’m being paranoid about the hooking up culture and its pervasiveness. But I think this is the case at her school because: A) there’s a greater variety of people (ie not everyone is a massive overachiever); B) certain programs are tougher than others and at a big school it’s easier to escape tough classes and programs therefore giving you more time to pursue social goals; and C) many of the students are still close to home and their families encourage them to bring home a “nice” guy or girl.

    My school is small, private and the opposite – everyone is super stressed, applying to a million things and a lot of people are perfectionists and narcissists. I know a lot of people who have been home maybe once or twice in four years, so they’re even prioritizing their families below career goals. In such an environment, it’s difficult to have meaningful friendships let alone a meaningful romantic relationship. Certain groups on my campus have even recognized that this is a problem and held dialogues open to the whole campus about how to make interactions between students less awkward. I’m sure my school is not the only one with similar problems, and I think it would be interesting to look at differences in hookup and relationship culture between big schools, small schools, public schools, private schools, etc.

    Also, I realize that sexiness is THE criteria for young men, but let’s face it: most of us in school, men and women, don’t look that great everyday. Most of my peers come to class in sweats; some people have clearly not showered and a lot of girls don’t bother with makeup everyday. So, I think college-age people actually do adjust their expectations in terms of appearance A LOT because most of us don’t walk around as if we just stepped out of a magazine.

    College is a stressful environment, and relationships, romantic and otherwise, become second priority to homework, applications and jobs/internships. Everyone wants to take the path of least resistance, which I think is a natural response to have, so that’s why men would want to pursue girls who require little effort for both hookups and relationships. Related to this, I think Deidre makes an excellent point: when I see non-bitchy girls in college in serious relationships, they tend to be “college marriages,” and the girls usually felt extremely insecure without a guy and generally had excellent flirting skills. This is another way to make it easy for a guy to get with you. The level of effort involved is really crucial.

  • terre

    “So I guess one question I have is – do beta guys also like crazy bitchy slutty women? For some, I’d imagine that having such a woman fall in their lap would be like winning the lottery!”
    .
    I don’t really know what this is supposed to mean. Very few men enjoy “bitchy[ness]“, and those few that do are high IQ alphas who need drama to stave off emotional ennui. Even then, I’d say that this contingent is so extremely small to be negligible. As Mike C said, men will put up with bitchiness; that doesn’t mean they crave it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre
      OK, I understand – men don’t prefer a bitchy girlfriend. I guess I was wondering if guys who are not in that dominant 20% would even feel comfortable with a promiscuous drama queen. It would be a lot to handle, though perhaps well worth it for the sex. That’s what I meant by winning the lottery. In any case, I suspect that most of the women who meet this description all gunning for alphas all the way.

  • Höllenhund

    Waiting three dates is now out of the question?

    For alpha males, it normally is. Matt T was only talking about them, not all guys. Again you’re making the mistake of ignoring the remaining 80% of men.

  • Senior Year

    I’m a senior in college right now. What’s holding me back from losing my virginity is the moral dilemma of just leading a girl on so I can have sex. It’s beta and shit whatever, but if I talk to a girl who seems nice, I just can’t help but think leading her on for short term sex is going to ruin her chance of a good marriage.

    I mean, seriously, what the fuck is there to do? It’s not like I’m going to accept the fact that some people sleep around and go look for a slut to release my jizz. Then again I keep this shit up and get old enough, I’m deemed creepy because I’m a 40 year old virgin.

    I’m supposed to find the middle ground and find a good girl, get in a good relationship, and get sex from that. Maybe wife the girl for a family later if she is really high quality.

    Right. The likelihood is so goddamn low. The routine of class, workout, video games, hanging out with bros, and jerking off isn’t all that uncommon among college dudes.

  • terre

    Susan, the amount of men who wouldn’t wait “three dates” for a girl is extremely low. If anything, there’s probably far more women who’ll never actually go on three dates because it never takes that long for a girl to know whether she’s attracted or not. Hollenhund has it right when he says how we’re again talking about a very select male demographic.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Senior Year:

    I talk to a girl who seems nice, I just can’t help but think leading her on for short term sex is going to ruin her chance of a good marriage.

    Um. What’s wrong with just getting to know the girl? If she seems nice, what’s wrong with taking her out on a few dates, getting to know her, and (if she turns out to be really awesome) making her your girlfriend?

    You don’t have to lead girls on just for sex. You can get to know one and have the pleasure of a supportive and loyal girlfriend, plus relationship sex. I highly doubt her chances of a good marriage would be ruined by one boyfriend.

  • Senior Year

    SayWhaat,

    That is the case of me putting my sexual needs first. If I just want to fuck a girl and don’t want anything with her long term, then that’s not fair to the girl. That’s what I meant.

    And it’s fucking hard to go on dates in college. At least at mine. Middle of fucking nowhere. Snowed in. Nothing really to do. What most people do is just get together in their cliques and party every weekend. So hard to just cold approach and take out a girl. Trust me, I’ve tried. Too much social game bullshit involved. No one fucking dates. It’s either “hang out” in tight groups that have been together for a while. And there are couples that are practically married for four years.

    I go to a religious school.

  • Badger Nation

    “I’m a senior in college right now. What’s holding me back from losing my virginity is the moral dilemma of just leading a girl on so I can have sex. It’s beta and shit whatever, but if I talk to a girl who seems nice, I just can’t help but think leading her on for short term sex is going to ruin her chance of a good marriage.”
    .
    I would advise you don’t panic. If you don’t feel you can dip your stick without an emotional connection, don’t do it. You may have to wait until you are out of college to find what you are looking for. Not a problem – develop your personality and character and find ways to enjoy your life.
    .
    Here’s the deal: it’s all about frame. If you don’t give a shit about your virginity, no one else will. I pulled fake it till you make it for a few years before the right pieces fell into place. It didn’t hurt my social stature in the slightest, except maybe among people whose opinions I didn’t care that much about. And I have to say that to some degree, sex is overrated, but of course those without experience have no benchmark with which to realize that.
    .
    SayWhaat also has a good point – a short-term relationship is not ethically equal to a P&D (although I understand that dating in college today is a non-starter).

  • Matt T

    @Senior Year,

    Dude, that’s the case in all colleges, due to a perfect storm of policies. Many state universities (mine, at least), are dry, but the college exercises little jurisdiction over the frats, which are theoretically dry, but really aren’t. For whatever reason, college women view dates as “out”, and drunken hookups as in. Since the frats control access to alcohol, they control access to women. If you want to get women, you need to go through the frat social scene.

  • Badger Nation

    “The cost/benefit ratio of sex with a psycho clearly increases over time.”
    .
    If you have a shitty thankless job, it doesn’t matter how much they pay you – you’ll dread going to it and it will destroy your life. Dating a high-maintenance girl is the same: it becomes an unbearably difficult and unrewarding job, no matter what sexual benefits it incurs.
    .
    Usually scarcity mentality and inertial cause guys to keep going. But very often, once the relationship is over, the guy says “God that was awful.”

  • Matt T

    “The cost/benefit ratio of sex with a psycho clearly increases over time.”
    .
    If you have a shitty thankless job, it doesn’t matter how much they pay you – you’ll dread going to it and it will destroy your life. Dating a high-maintenance girl is the same: it becomes an unbearably difficult and unrewarding job, no matter what sexual benefits it incurs.
    .
    Usually scarcity mentality and inertial cause guys to keep going. But very often, once the relationship is over, the guy says “God that was awful.”

    You would give up a job in the current economy? Who knows how long you might be on food stamps.

  • SayWhaat

    Any tips from you guys on gauging a man’s emotional involvement? So far all I can think of is:
    – match your output to his output
    – observe what he does, not what he says

    Anything else that should be kept in mind? (Perhaps this is a topic for another post.)

  • Höllenhund

    You will never see women turn away from hot guys – some say “Well, I know he’s a douchebag, and I don’t plan to get attached. I’ll beat him at his own game.” Then the hamster wheel starts to spin and she is hopelessly subservient to his whims. I’ve seen it dozens, no hundreds, of times.

    Doesn’t this contradict your thesis that neither men and women are slaves to their biology/genetics, Ms. Walsh? You regularly implore your female leaders to avoid cads. Did you just realize it’s an impossible expectation?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund
      Good catch. That is indeed inconsistent with what I often claim. Let me see if I can clarify. Most, if not all women, will be flattered if they are pursued by a hot guy, and will enjoy, even encourage his attention. Not all hot guys are cads, though many are players. A woman drawing this kind of attention who returns the attraction will be hoping that the guy is neither, or at the very worst a player who is finally ready for something “real.” It happens – not often, but often enough so that women see there are exceptions to the rule. The example I gave in the post of the QB committing to the slutty sorostitute is such a case. (We can set aside questions on the true quality of that “relationship” – to an outsider it looks like the slut has snagged Tom Brady.)
      .
      Obviously, many women get burned by an alpha or two. This is where experience teaches if the woman is self-aware enough to benefit. Many of my posts are about learning how to distinguish cads up front – what are the behaviors that serve as red flags?
      .
      There are also many women who are not even remotely likely to be pursued by one of these guys, and don’t aspire to it. They’re looking for a good guy. I write for them too, and they’re the most likely mates for the guys in that less fortunate 80%.
      .
      We all know that there are women who ride the carousel, making the same bad choices again and again, never learning that the outcome is always the same. I don’t think this fate applies to most women.
      .
      It would be more accurate to say that hot guys will never lack for female attention, no matter how caddish they are. But there will be females who avoid entanglements with such men, either through choice or lack of opportunity. This is also something that is related to age – which is why cads clean up with freshmen women, and why studies show that hooking up drops off dramatically for women by junior year.

  • Brendan

    I have a feeling I’ll have to play devil’s advocate – it seems like there’s one winning strategy for college women, and a different one for women once they graduate and have access to older men.

    Indeed.

    College is an environment that is, for various reasons, pegged in favor of the hot men. First many campuses have lopsided overall sex ratios, meaning that men overall have more bargaining power, meaning that women’s ability to withhold sex for male commitment is much less. If you add to this the factor that (1) most women seem to want “objective” alpha males today (not so in the past … more below) and (2) relatively few men below 25 are3 “objective” alpha males, for various reasons, you get an “effective” sex ratio (i.e., ratio of “attractive/dateable” men to women” that is very low. Under those conditions, the men who are in that small pool call the shots, meaning they get to have sex on demand as a gatekeeper for access. So for “nice girls” who are not interested in having sex other than “relationship sex”, trying to get a man from this “attractive/dateable” pool in college is very, very hard: the men simply have other, easier options who will provide sex on much more favorable (to the men) terms, thereby leading even the “not” “nice” girls relatively alone.

    This changes in the post-college age group, because the pool changes dramatically. However, care must be taken in trying to analyze that pool, because the local characteristics of the 22-35 dating pool vary *wildly* depending on location. The dating scene for 20s in Pittsburgh isn’t that similar to the one in LA or Miami. Roughly similar? Yes. But LA and Miami (or even Manhattan or DC for that matter, for different reasons) are going to be much more like “college Part II” than Pittsburgh is.

    I think the mismatch in college has happened because women have developed a more uniform standard for what they are willing to date at that age than they had in the past, while at the same time relatively few men are meeting that standard. In the past, women kind of dated up and down the male tree. If you ask people who went to college in the 70s and the pre-AIDS early 80s, you’ll find that most of the male tree was dating — sure there was hypergamy, and the men at the top were getting more and so on, but there wasn’t as much of the “getting left out cold” phenomenon going on. Women seemed to pair up more easily to similarly-SPM-valued men.

    In the interim, I think female expectations have heightened to a large degree, such that even average college women want an “objective alpha male”. I’m sure there are various reasons for this, such as the media culture, the SATC-type fanning of the hypergamous flames, the celebration of you-go-grrl culture and what have you, but what we have now is the spectacle of perfectly fine, yet perfectly average, college women only being interested in dating a small percentage of the men (whom every other college woman wants to date). Sure, hypergamy always existed in terms of desire, but in the even relatively recent past, many women were more pragmatic in terms of actual *dating*, whereas today it seems relatively few, at least among that age set, are interested in anything other than a very hypergamous choice. I wonder whether this has to do with intra-female culture in terms of the perceived (and real) social rank value among other women of having an “objective alpha” vs. “other” type of boyfriend, with the latter perhaps adding such little value (or even detracting value) as to be not worthwhile. But for whatever reason, the interest women have in peer-value males seems to have decreased significantly in the space of a generation or two.

    This doesn’t always change at graduation, interestingly. Again, as I say above, a lot of this is very region/local specific, and so it’s very hard to generalize meaningfully about it, but there are quite a few women who follow the same basic approach well into their mid to late 20s.

    To be sure this is exacerbated by the emergence of the “man-boy”, but I sometimes can’t help from wondering whether there is a chicken and egg problem there. In other words, are 17 year old guys really less mature than they were 25 years ago? I doubt that. What might be happening is that because many of these guys are getting frozen out due to this very hypergamous marketplace even starting in high school, they turn to other things, which then makes them less desirable as well, and it spirals from there. When I was in HS, it was still possible for average guys to get dates — I was very average and could find a girl to dance with at the HS dance and had 2-3 GFs in HS. I doubt a guy of my “averageness” in HS today would have the same access to women (and ironically, I was at a same-sex HS, heh) because the women have raised their standards substantially to a point where most of their peers simply can’t cut it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan
      As always, a very helpful and informative comment, thanks.

      If you ask people who went to college in the 70s and the pre-AIDS early 80s, you’ll find that most of the male tree was dating — sure there was hypergamy, and the men at the top were getting more and so on, but there wasn’t as much of the “getting left out cold” phenomenon going on. Women seemed to pair up more easily to similarly-SPM-valued men.

      As one of those people I can confirm this. I went to a large state school and was very involved in the Greek scene. The sororities were pretty choosy about the looks of their members, but the frats selected for dominance, athletic ability, etc. so the range of physical attractiveness was larger. Still, the “hottest” frat guy would date (go steady with) the hottest sorority girl. The least hot guy would date a girl who might be attractive buy shy, or a bit overweight, etc. Both men and women were fairly realistic about their sexual market value. If you came into college not knowing it, you learned quickly – because there was a system of going out on dates, getting turned down was a clear indicator you were aiming too high. Being pursued eagerly let you know that you could do better. There was very little casual sex in the mid to late 70s in the Greek scene. Getting branded a slut meant that for the rest of college you were the girl doing the drunken hookups – at a time when 90% of girls wouldn’t even consider such a thing. It may have been very different outside the Greek scene – I’m sure it was, among the “hippie” or pot-smoking crowds. But in many places they were just a very visible minority.

  • Brendan

    Any tips from you guys on gauging a man’s emotional involvement? So far all I can think of is:
    – match your output to his output
    – observe what he does, not what he says
    Anything else that should be kept in mind? (Perhaps this is a topic for another post.)

    You also do need to pay attention to what he says. A common mistake that women make is to try to “read between the lines” of male “non-verbal communication”. This is often a mistake because most men are just not that subtle, and are not trying to communicate with you non-verbally, and so what you end up doing is trying to infer feelings of which the guy himself presumably is not even himself aware based on actions which you are reading but which are not intentional on his part — fun for coffee talk with the girls, but a road to nowhere in trying to understand a man’s intentions. The ones who are intentionally and subtly communicating through action in that way, at least at the early stages of a relationship, are are very, very advanced, and many are players/gamers. A better bet is to ask a guy. You may not get the answer you want (“No, I’m not interested in a girlfriend now.” “No, I don’t want anything serious now.” “Let’s just see what happens, yeah?”) … but you will often get an answer that is fairly close to what the guy is really thinking/feeling unless you are dealing with a player.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      what you end up doing is trying to infer feelings of which the guy himself presumably is not even himself aware based on actions which you are reading but which are not intentional on his part

      This is where women get derailed and spiral downward fast. I can’t say it enough – you must take people at face value. A woman looking for a “best case scenario” will jump the track looking for some tortured explanation involving extensive armchair psychoanalysis. Then in rush her girlfriends to not only approve her theories, but often will even expand upon them, leading her into even more ridiculous territory. Usually, women never have the opportunity to float these theories to the guys and get feedback, but occasionally a guy will express that he is absolutely bewildered by a woman’s take on their situation. He can’t imagine where she got her ideas, when in fact, hours and hours went into crafting the narrative, all without input from him!

  • Jess

    I think I agree with brendon here.
    At college I met girls who dismissed guys that I thought were perfectly cute.
    And I have kind of seen it with younger girls too
    But its not all girls, either in my era or now.
    .
    I would simply advise girls to be more realistic and give a nice but less hot guy a shot.
    I’m not saying they should date people they don’t find at all attractive but just to try and be more open minded.
    .
    I think it’s terribly sad that men or women spend their most attractive, youthful years in celibacy. A real pity when safe sex is so much fun and so important for self esteem at such a vulnerable age.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess

      I think it’s terribly sad that men or women spend their most attractive, youthful years in celibacy. A real pity when safe sex is so much fun and so important for self esteem at such a vulnerable age.

      Safe sex is not always fun. In fact, casual sex is most often rated as not much fun at all. This is true for the majority of women, most of whom don’t orgasm, but even men say they don’t really have good sex when hooking up. I’ve written about this before – the reasons range from intoxication to having no emotional investment, to not knowing a thing about what might please your partner.
      .
      I also think that sex is not important for self-esteem for women. Not at all. If a woman feels loved during sex, that will certainly bolster self-esteem, but casual sex often leaves women feeling pumped and dumped. The vast majority of college women express regret after a hookup. It’s very damaging to their self-esteem, in fact.

  • filrabat

    I only glanced through this post and its comments, but I can summarize it as The most charismatic and outgoing people have little to no trouble finding someone. This is especially true of the mainstream SMP. Those who choose a different route because they can’t fit into the mainstream SMP for some reason are either alone, happy to be alone, or use a different strategy: find an alternative social environment they can fit into.

  • filrabat

    @Jess
    I think it’s terribly sad that men or women spend their most attractive, youthful years in celibacy. A real pity when safe sex is so much fun and so important for self esteem at such a vulnerable age.

    True ONLY to the extent that they fall hook, line, and sinker for the pop culture propaganda “If you’re not getting any, then you must be a chump or a loser”. In fact, I’d say making sex and romance a 3rd or 4th place priority (or lower) is more important for self-esteem. That way, they can concentrate on hobbies, interests, outlets of self-expression, education, learning marketable skills, etc. Most important of all, young people, however few, who abandoned the SMP are more able to question the cultural assumptions about the SMP peddled to us (more like “forced down our throat” if you ask me). In short, they learn that sex is NOT the end-all, be-all of life, nor should it be – for it’s not the lack of sex that’s the real problem, it’s the stigma attached to it that is. That cultural attitude is the i>real problem virgins or the little-experienced face.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    filrabat…”The most charismatic and outgoing people have little to no trouble finding someone”

    Generally true, I think, but probably a little less true for women than for men since physical attractiveness can get even a fairly shy woman approached.

  • Badger Nation

    This is where women get derailed and spiral downward fast. I can’t say it enough – you must take people at face value. A woman looking for a “best case scenario” will jump the track looking for some tortured explanation involving extensive armchair psychoanalysis. Then in rush her girlfriends to not only approve her theories, but often will even expand upon them, leading her into even more ridiculous territory. Usually, women never have the opportunity to float these theories to the guys and get feedback, but occasionally a guy will express that he is absolutely bewildered by a woman’s take on their situation. He can’t imagine where she got her ideas, when in fact, hours and hours went into crafting the narrative, all without input from him!
    .
    I think a good generalized rule of thumb would be:
    .
    Women need to turn off their projection hamsters wrt to men. This means stop filling in desires, thoughts, meanings where you have no way to know either way.
    .
    Men would do well to up their awareness of female social cues. Mystery teaches the latter quite well, and if all you learned about game was how to read IOIs, you’d still be a vastly improved operator in the SMP.
    .
    I noticed a guy talking to a woman at a bar last night. It did not appear to be going well, they had been chatting for ~10 minutes and she was standing up straight and backleaning, not smiling, not talking much. he was clearly boring her for whatever reason. My buddies and I privately chuckled and hoped he would get an epiphany. But about twenty minutes later I saw they had moved locations in the bar (movement within the venue is a key Mystery Method tactic), they were closer together and the postures had improved. My point? Maybe the guy was having an off day in his game, or was preoccupied for a few minutes. He obviously salvaged the operation at least for a few more minutes. Trying to judge a person’s entire personality based on one meeting, or a date, or a couple of dates, is a fool’s errand. Turn off those hamsters.

  • Badger Nation

    Since we’re on the topic of undeserving women with boyfriends and we’ve returned to the old promiscuity issue I can’t get this story from HUS out of my head:
    .
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/11/29/hookinguprealities/the-hidden-cost-of-keeping-sex-casual/#comment-22314
    .
    Women will lie and get away with it. That’s just the way it is. I know a couple right now, just out of college. They met last winter in a bar (anonymity is crucial to deception). Her number is about 30. He believes with all his heart her number is 6.
    -snip-
    To arrive at that, she went through a hilarious and contorted rationalization that sounded like satire. All birthday hookups total to 1 partner. She has had sex with 4 gay guys, so doesn’t count them at all. Sex that she can’t recall doesn’t count – I think that shaved 4 or 5 off her total. She doesn’t count it if the guy comes outside her body. It’s completely ridiculous, but she argues that this is all totally legit. Of course, she would never share her methodology with her bf.
    -snip-
    I would suspect that her bf is just looking for a good time, but I don’t know. He seems awfully smitten. She is his first relationship and he’s 24, so that may be part of it. He’s not at all bad looking though, and plays in a rugby league.”

    .
    This kind of thing frankly freaks me out, and is disturbing on several levels. One is that most guys will agree with me that this girl is just plain dirty – 30 sex partners in college (plus high school) is beyond sluttacular (what is up with seducing gay men? Were they in the closet or was she trying to show off her seduction skills to herself?) Another is that she doesn’t have enough sense to be honestly dishonest. Instead she constructs a new psychedelic reality in which she can lie to herself as well as to other people. At least an honest liar is self-aware and knows they’re full of shit. A third is that her dating this relationship-virgin rugby player is basically predatory – there’s no doubt part of her attraction is that the sexual differential all but guarantees he’ll never be able to push her around and she will to him. The fourth is that she obviously feels perfectly justified in committing this “truth terrorism” because it suits her own narcissistic aims.
    .
    What happened to this couple, Susan? I hope for his sake they broke up and he never found out – if he did it might fu** with his mind and ruin him for his future with women.
    .
    On that note, here’s a call to the Tom Leykis show where a couple argue on the air – the girl tells her boyfriend straight that blowing other men doesn’t count as cheating because “it’s not sex.” He dumps her on the air.
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScKkOTbilCM

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger
      Yes, the couple is still together. From what I hear he is as smitten as ever. Interestingly, I would describe his gf as exactly the kind of young woman this post describes. She has always had boyfriends, except for brief periods when she preferred to be single.
      .
      I agree with and share your profound disturbance, and I really have no explanation. FWIW, it’s the most extreme example I’ve ever heard, though not as extreme as the woman who doesn’t view handing out BJs as cheating. It’s just so troubling to stop and consider that there’s a not insignificant part of the population that behaves like they’re preparing for a tell-all session on Jerry Springer. Thankfully, I don’t attract those women to HUS very often.
      .
      Which leads me to wonder – do you think that kind of behavior correlates to education? Obviously, colleges produce Karen Owens, it’s not that only less educated women are promiscuous. Still, many of these terrible stories have a certain Jersey Shore quality to them. Then again, the crazy “accounting” practiced by the woman I described earlier came from a girl who is now a real life accountant. So go figure.

  • Rhen

    This is a subject I’ve thought about a lot. I once had a beautiful, very sweet girlfriend (Katie) who I threw over for a woman I’d previously dated and had a very stormy relationship with (Donna). I’m still with Donna, and though it’s good in some ways, it’s also been pretty difficult.

    I’ve spent much time wondering why I ditched Katie and especially, why I didn’t consider it more carefully before doing so. It’s certainly POSSIBLE that Donna and I are a better match than Katie and I would have been//I’m sure there are not-so-good things about Katie I would have learned if we’d stayed together longer//but she deserved a much more careful decision than the way I did it.

    Part of it was that Donna shared more of my interests and was more “charismatic” (as someone said above) than Katie was****but I’m afraid a big part of it was that I was totally certain of Katie while Donna always kept me off-balance. (None of this has much to do with the giving-sex-too-early stuff: both girls had low numbers and both waited about the same length of time before sleeping with me. Both were about the same attractiveness level.)

    If Katie had “gamed” me just a little bit//I believe it’s called “push pull game”???//I might not have given her up so readily. She wouldn’t have needed to be a bitch or to sleep with someone else, just a little uncertainty, like “Rhen, there’s this really cute guy in my English class” might have been enough.

    Not proud of the way I handled this.

  • Mike C

    Wait – I thought the cad at work was getting married. But he was getting road head just a few weeks ago from a stranger?
    .
    Heck no. I have a hard time seeing him ever getting married but who knows. We have a younger guy in the office who recently married (and was a virgin). Makes for some interesting discussions.
    .
    The cad just loves to come over and show me pictures on his cellphone. He has a stripper pole in his bedroom. It appears to be a great prop with a certain segment of girls just loving it.
    .
    I have to admit I find most of the stories entertaining, but some of the MILF ones disturb me as these women have children and should be setting an example for their teenage children, especially daughters. There is something quite wrong with giving some guy a blowjob in your hot tub in line of sight of the kitchen with your teenage daughter in the kitchen.

  • Mike C

    I’ve spent much time wondering why I ditched Katie and especially, why I didn’t consider it more carefully before doing so. It’s certainly POSSIBLE that Donna and I are a better match than Katie and I would have been//I’m sure there are not-so-good things about Katie I would have learned if we’d stayed together longer//but she deserved a much more careful decision than the way I did it.
    Part of it was that Donna shared more of my interests and was more “charismatic” (as someone said above) than Katie was****but I’m afraid a big part of it was that I was totally certain of Katie while Donna always kept me off-balance. (None of this has much to do with the giving-sex-too-early stuff: both girls had low numbers and both waited about the same length of time before sleeping with me. Both were about the same attractiveness level.)
    If Katie had “gamed” me just a little bit//I believe it’s called “push pull game”???/

    .
    Yup, like Vincent said earlier and I affirmed, push-pull game does work on guys. But push-pull does not equal obnoxious bitchiness.

  • Josephine

    I’ve been told I’m a bitch – largely for my sarcastic sense of humor. I didn’t get nearly any male attention until I got “hot”, i.e. when puberty finally struck and I realized glasses, braces, and dark blonde hair were not a good luck for me. Men don’t fall for bitches. Men fall for hot women who typically, when this beauty has been present since birth, have ridiculous amounts of self-confidence and have never been corrected for being cruel or a bitch (because who could chastise such a pretty girl?).

    Now I’m in a small college where boys try desperately to drink their social awkwardness away and get somebody attractive in the sack every weekend. Most of them will declare that they don’t want a relationship and more often than not they go home alone. They certainly aren’t going home with me.

  • Josephine

    *look not luck. My mistake

  • Josephine

    Also, how does a woman pull off the “push pull game” without seeming like a fickle bitch? This art form is seemingly essential according to these responses.

  • Florence

    From my experience, there are some myths and some facts that create most of the confusion.

    The myths:
    Men do not fall for bitches.
    Women do not fall for jerks.
    Attractive people get away with things normal people do not get away with, which results in them becoming overly confident, selfish and rude. Sometimes they can change and become better people, while other times, the development of these qualities has life-long damaging effects.

    The facts:
    Attractiveness is the single quality that out weighs most among other qualities.
    Qualities that are used to make-up for lack of attractiveness include: great attitude, confidence, investing in improving attractiveness, intelligence, money-making potential, power

    The good news is that every guy/girl can tolerate only a certain level of bitchiness or jerkiness in exchange for great looks. If that level becomes too high, the relationship will not work out. I have seen guys break up with hot girls, just because they got sick and tired of putting up with all their craziness.

    Therefore, for a girl of average attractiveness, having confidence, positive attitude, investing in her looks, and energy to go out there and ‘promote’ herself on the SMP is vital! She has the chances of being the long term winner of a guy who is tired of putting up with the craziness of his hot but selfish ex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence

      Therefore, for a girl of average attractiveness, having confidence, positive attitude, investing in her looks, and energy to go out there and ‘promote’ herself on the SMP is vital! She has the chances of being the long term winner of a guy who is tired of putting up with the craziness of his hot but selfish ex.

      I really want to believe this – I do hope it is true, or at least possible. But I have a sense that some guys will always go for the hot but selfish girls, just as some women will go for cads. I’ve heard guys admit that psycho bitches are their weakness – something about the conquest and drama, I think. I do think, though, that a woman of this description can do very well for herself if she seeks a man who is looking for a woman of reasonable attractiveness with sterling character (provided she is of good character).

  • Florence

    ‘Investing in improving attractiveness’ is not a quality, my bad :) Too bad, I can’t edit my post.

  • Jess

    Dear Susan,
    Yes I agree casual sex can vary in quality greatly. It depends on communication, chemistry and compatibility and men and women vary in their skills ( just like any other skill set I guess).
    This is further damaged by alcohol of course.
    But sometimes a fling can be wonderful and if I recall from your other threads we have both enjoyed one or two in our pasts.
    .
    However I actually meant sex in general in my last post and certainly to include ‘ dating’ sex.
    .
    I would imagine going home alone whilst your friends, of either gender, are having a hot and heavy time must hurt a great deal. And left for too long might really initiate depression even. We had a post not long ago of a guy who had simply lucked out.
    But these are supposed to be the fun, carefree, times of our lives.
    So, like I say, a real pity.
    Ps that is not to say the party will come to grinding halt if you pick up an STD. In case anyone thinks I’m a spring break sponsor or something.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess

      But sometimes a fling can be wonderful and if I recall from your other threads we have both enjoyed one or two in our pasts.

      Since you keep referring to this, and I’ve written posts about it, let me just remind you that I was head over heels for my husband the first time we ever had sex. I’d known him as a friend for nine months. The reason it was a no-strings hookup was that he was not head over heels for me. He saw an opportunity and he made a move. He didn’t fall for me until about four months later. I haven’t been with anyone else since that ONS in March, 1982.
      .
      I’m pretty sure this means we have very different sexual histories. That’s fine – no judgments, but in truth the sex I had with him that night was anything but casual for me.

  • Florence

    When attractiveness is not a factor, I agree with Rhen 100%.

    Dear Rhen, what exactly did Donna do to keep you off-balance? How did she apply the push-pull game?

    Too many great girls experience being Katie. The ‘Donna’ type of girls eventually screw the guy over money or something else or make his life miserable in the long term.

    The theory that people want what they cannot have is true. However, it has some bad consequences. It sometimes makes men and women masochistic.

  • Geoff

    Guys under 28 (and a lot of them never grow up) want whores for sex. They also pop wood at the possibility of sex with an innocent girl.

    If they ever want to get married (a vanishing breed, admittedly), they don’t want a whore to marry. If that leads to a less invigorating social calendar while the good gals go to college, just recognize the opportunity cost before you commit to a gross of Astro-Glide and a bag of free condoms in your nightstand.

    Don’t overthink this, ladies. I’ve known countless guys (I was a lifeguard at the beach for 4 years, 2 yrs as a cop, then career military officer) with good to super-tight game and well over 95% of them would never marry the kind of chick they bang. Much as it will piss you off, your grandmother was right–men like nice girls who can cook.

  • Tor

    I’d just like to add, from a man’s perspective, I think the issue of bitches vs. good girls and douchebags vs. nice guys are closely related. Observe that bitches and douchebags both monopolize sex, generally at the expense of ethical guys/girls. Observe also that in both cases, overtly sexual behavior and exaggerated masculinity/femininity is flaunted, as compared with “nice” people whose modesty tends to turn them more or less into wallpaper. Bitches/Douches (B/D) have no problem flaunting it because they have no problem playing with people’s feelings, nice folks “don’t want to give people the wrong idea”. I think also the B/D’s combination of fuck me/fuck off attitude drives ppl of all kinds to try to vindicate themselves, and the desire they feel for B/D’s by seeking their approval, so receiving sexual attention from them ( temporarily ) validates both their self esteem and the attraction they feel. Re: Bitch game – well, maybe it will help in the grand scheme of things to help nice girls to flaunt it and play with confidence, but it worries me a bit, between PUA’s and Bitch Game – do we really want to be creating a sociosexual environment where treating each other like garbage is considered the way to find love? Seriously what the fuck is going on – isn’t there enough suspicion and bitterness between the sexes already? I’d also add that if a guy is genuinely attracted to a girl and sleeps with her, if she drops him at that point, he will feel just as fucked and chucked as a girl would, his self esteem will take a hit too, any normal human being is going to wonder what’s wrong with them if somebody gives them the boot after sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tor

      it worries me a bit, between PUA’s and Bitch Game – do we really want to be creating a sociosexual environment where treating each other like garbage is considered the way to find love? Seriously what the fuck is going on – isn’t there enough suspicion and bitterness between the sexes already?

      Exactly right. But – as Badger said in an earlier thread, adding a bit of an edge without resorting to the “dark arts” may be not only understandable but beneficial, in that it puts more people in the game. Finding love is very difficult in this SMP, and for the vast majority of people on the sidelines, impossible.

  • ATS

    I’m one of those women who was never single for long, and most of the long term boyfriends I had proposed marriage to me. Except for the first one I had when I was young and gullible and didn’t know better, I’ve always been the dumper, never the dumpee, and some of the men I’ve been with are pretty high level alphas.

    Mind you, I’m not one of those drop dead gorgeous tens (Susan can attest to this–she has a picture I sent her of me and my husband of 14 years)–I wouldn’t know where I stand on the rating scale, and I’m not the bitchy sort, but if there’s one thing I’ve always been consistent with with all the men I’ve had a relationship with is this: they all knew that if they screwed up, I would walk away, period. And they knew that I’d be fine being alone, and that I’d never be one to chase after men, and that I would never tolerate disrespect. What I see now in the present SMP are young women tolerating shabby treatment many women of my generation would never have allowed.

  • Badger Nation

    “they all knew that if they screwed up, I would walk away, period. And they knew that I’d be fine being alone”
    .
    This is a much better strategy than getting angry. Setting boundaries is critical and I am shocked so many couples don’t. Sadly lots of people in LTRs are so committed to having the person by their side that they will respond to bad behavior with histrionics or sublimation (stereotypical female and male responses respectively) instead of a plain “we gotta fix this or I’m gone.”

  • Höllenhund

    To be sure this is exacerbated by the emergence of the “man-boy”, but I sometimes can’t help from wondering whether there is a chicken and egg problem there. In other words, are 17 year old guys really less mature than they were 25 years ago? I doubt that. What might be happening is that because many of these guys are getting frozen out due to this very hypergamous marketplace even starting in high school, they turn to other things, which then makes them less desirable as well, and it spirals from there.

    I think you have a point but the explanation may be more simple. When we examine the usual rites of passage into manhood in bygone patriarchal times, it’s obvious they usually involved socialization in male-only environments, such as serving in the army, doing the same shitty and dangerous job that your father did, winning a bar fight, learning to hunt, doing sports etc. – in other words, winning the respect of other men, especially older men, in your environment. (The examples I cited have always been working-class rites of passage, for young men in other classes it was obviously different.) Having a relationship with a woman wasn’t the most important one. It wasn’t getting pussy that gained you mature manhood. It can be observed, in fact, that a guy couldn’t hope to successfully court a girl unless he impressed her parents, especially her father, as well – which, in turn, meant that he had to come across as a masculine, mature young man.

    In short: young men were expected to fulfill rigid patriarchal roles by presenting themselves as potential providers + protectors. In bygone times the average 25-year-old man was married and working, usually doing some blue-collar job. Such norms were bound to break down after feminism was socially accepted. When women are liberated from their patriarchal roles, the same will inevitably (albeit maybe partially) happen to men. The draft and the threat of conventional war are things of the past, “manly” jobs are in short supply, and nobody expects a young man to marry his high-school girlfriend after graduation, become a factory worker and be the sole provider of his family. The old rites of passage are non-existent. I guess it’s just common sense that guys would mature slower in such an environment. I should mention though that women are maturing slower as well. Frankly I don’t see why a 26-year-old bar-hopping single woman pushing paper in a cubicle at a multinational company or a government agency, reading Cosmo and watching re-runs of SATC should be considered more mature than a guy of similar age playing Call of Duty, watching porn, hanging out with his friends and doing some crummy corporate job.

    In the interim, I think female expectations have heightened to a large degree, such that even average college women want an “objective alpha male”. I’m sure there are various reasons for this, such as the media culture, the SATC-type fanning of the hypergamous flames, the celebration of you-go-grrl culture and what have you

    Maybe it’s also the result of young women getting scarce useful social guidance in the current SMP. They are also encouraged to fill roles (such as the ball-busting, dominant, overtly confident, high-earning feminist woman) that contradict their core feminine impulses. This creates an environment where they’re becoming more and more clueless and co-dependent, expecting a dominant super-alpha to show up, lift them from their psychological misery and solve their problems.

  • Badger Nation

    “Which leads me to wonder – do you think that kind of behavior correlates to education? Obviously, colleges produce Karen Owens, it’s not that only less educated women are promiscuous”
    .
    Funny you mention this, as I’ve studied the issue I see real differences in the issue based on class. Feminism at the blue-collar level is probably much more visceral, getting charged-up men in physical occupations to accept women working on the line with them. In the upper class, it’s more about pushing up into upper management and getting former frat guys to lay off the crude jokes.
    .
    WRT education itself, pick your poison – I bet you can find sluts by the barrel either way. If you don’t have access to a “top” school, you are going to a state school that has plenty of smart people but many more layabouts partying their way to a worthless degree. Hard to build good habits in that environment. On the other hand, if you go to a top school that holds your hand through college and spoils you (as I have seen top schools do to satisfy mom and dad’s desire for a summer camp for their post-HS kids) you are probably going to live in a consequence-free environment and party it up anyway. This goes double if you are planning on grad school which pushes out contact with the “real world” a few more years.
    .
    Ditto with divorce – divorce at the lower class level is wildly more common than among top white-collar folks, and probably has a much more dire tone to it because you are dealing with women who if thrown back on the job market have basically no skills and can barely earn the “living wage.” (Not to mention divorces coming out uneven because one or both sides can’t afford good counsel.) An educated middle upper class woman who divorces after ten years will have a tough road to hoe but she’s at least employable just from her degree and college skills.

  • Badger Nation

    “though not as extreme as the woman who doesn’t view handing out BJs as cheating.”
    .
    I was looking up my state’s divorce laws, revised recently. I noticed that cause of adultery is specifically defined as adultery, sodomy (oral), or buggery (anal). Methinks the state’s family courts had gotten one too many Bill Clinton cases of somebody trying to claim it wasn’t sex.

  • Höllenhund

    I think it’s terribly sad that men or women spend their most attractive, youthful years in celibacy. A real pity when safe sex is so much fun and so important for self esteem at such a vulnerable age.

    Hah! We are vulnerable during our “most attractive, youthful years” precisely because some people implore us to attach special importance to safe sex and consider it imperative for our self-esteem.

  • Rhen

    Florence..I don’t think Donna was CONSCIOUSLY trying to game me at all; she’s not the sort of person who thinks about emotional things a lot. Rather, she is just a person who has a tendency to be dissatisfied and often the dissatisfaction turned on me–as I think it would have with anyone she was with, unless perhaps he had VERY outstanding game skills. And things went well often enough to keep me around.

    Don’t want to give the impression Donna is all bad by any means, if you met her you’d probably think she was very smart and very charming. But she’s very hard to live with, and since my own parents got along very well, as did just about all couples they/we knew, I wasn’t prepared for the idea of a relationship as a power struggle.

  • Matt T

    A relationship is always a power struggle: the side with power is the side that needs the other person less. This is why most females “win” their relationships, because they need the man less than the man needs them. The exception, of course, is relationships with alpha’s, who don’t need the female at all since they always have access to sex.

  • Badger Nation

    “This is why most females “win” their relationships, because they need the man less than the man needs them.”
    .
    Really? You must be thinking in strictly sexual, 80-20 terms. Men are told they “need” women but a lot are waking up to the fact that they aren’t going to die at age 35 if they don’t have a woman by their side. Most men I know under age 30 want sex but can take or leave the relationship – they have plenty else to occupy their time. Meanwhile the young women are desperate to have someone so they can “I have a boyfriend!!” or show him off to her friends, and this morphs into marriage pressure.
    .
    In later relationships, there’s a “false economy” – men are punished by the family law system for leaving their wives (or even punished if their wives leave them) so they “need” their women because the law says so.
    .
    I do think a lot of men in miserable relationships are not properly asserting themselves, which certainly corresponds to an attitude of “I need her more than she needs me.”

  • filrabat

    @Tor, @ Susan
    I think the big elephant in the room is the craving for excitement, as if excitement were such a necessary component of relationships! Believe it or not, it’s perfectly possible to appreciate an activity, thing, or person without being excited by them. In fact, I recall some years ago that some Buddhist monks somewhere in Asia asked their leader about advice about watching one of the World Cups (as I understand it, Buddhism sees excitement or other intense emotions in and of themselves as a “spiritual imbalance”*. The leader said that they could watch the World Cup as long as they didn’t get excited by the games.

    This told me that excitement about a guy or girl might feel great in the short term, but often leads to disaster. In fact, I think our culture in general is addicted to excitement to a very unhealthy degree (just look at what we demand in our politicians, speakers, entertainment, etc. – more, more, more! Enough is not enough. If that isn’t addiction to thrills, then I don’t know what is).

    *I don’t think Buddhism has a concept of “sin” in the Abrahamic religious sense, but they do have a concept of being less than spiritually perfect. I use “spiritual imbalance” because I can’t think of a better term offhand for it.
    @Badger

    a lot are waking up to the fact that they aren’t going to die at age 35 if they don’t
    have a woman by their side.

    Exactly Right! I never married and I’m older than that. In fact, I stopped “needing” a woman by 28 (when I heard how a former classmate lost his house in a divorce, along with half of everything else), but decisively outgrew my need of one at 29 – when I discovered that finding hobbies and interests that for all practical purposes filled holes in my soul. That taught me right then and there I didn’t need someone in my arms to be happy. A nice addition to have, sure, but not really at the top of my to-do list. Furthermore, I was already committed childfree at that point, so it was not too much of an emotional leap for me to do without a wife or even a GF. Besides, I discovered I’m happier alone anyway, and that was that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat

      it was not too much of an emotional leap for me to do without a wife or even a GF. Besides, I discovered I’m happier alone anyway, and that was that.

      Hmmm, this surprises me, because you seem very tuned into relationship dynamics. It’s clear you have an interest and some fluency with the subject matter. Are you sure you wouldn’t like a partner?

  • Badger Nation

    filabrat,
    .
    Don’t get me wrong. Although I respect that sort of lifestyle, I’m no MGTOW. But even a guy who is looking for a mate would do well to understand US Grant’s aphorism – “the enemy is more afraid of me than I am of him.” I think it is worse to be with the wrong partner than alone. Once a man accepts that, going single while looking or when you need to get away from the wrong woman is easy.

  • filrabat

    @Badger,

    Great to hear you respect my choice. I agree with the rest of your post. To other things you said

    divorce at the lower class level is wildly more common than among top white-collar folks,

    I think that has as much to do with these top people being less likely to jump into early marriage, plus being more aware of what kind of person is right for them. Not to mention that those who know they won’t be good spouses will be smart enough to see this and play committed bachelor, with some even going so far as to bandon the SMP entirely.

  • Chico

    This article looks like a strong case of female-originated projection. Men don’t chase girls because they are spoiled, bitchy, and narcissistic. They chase physically attractive women. But if a woman is spoiled her whole life and has everything she ever wants handed to her on a silver platter, as many attractive women do, then there is no incentive for her to adjust her behaviour accordingly, because people will overlook her flaws.

    Admittedly, a common mistake of young males (mostly 20 and under) is to assume instantly that a girl is deserving of your favours and affection. Society tells us that girls are sugar, spice, and everything nice. If the guy doesn’t grow out of this as he matures, it says just as much about the guy as it does about the girl. Infatuation can be powerful, but part of growing up is realizing that this feeling is not the same thing as love or even lust.

    The great benefit of the logical male brain is that we are capable of overcoming such feelings with logic, and do what it takes to move on. But this is something that comes after years of sometimes painful experience.

    I suppose you could say the same with a young woman who continually gets burned by the CADs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chico
      Hey, welcome back! I thought this was particularly insightful:
      Infatuation can be powerful, but part of growing up is realizing that this feeling is not the same thing as love or even lust.
      This ties in with filrabat’s comment about the constant craving for excitement. Unrealistic expectations about sustaining that kind of intense “in love” feeling are bound to cause relationships to fail, including marriage. The irony is that most people wouldn’t really want to feel that way – “head over heels” – for years on end. It’s exhausting. It would like living with a constant adrenalin rush, and might even become torture after a while.

  • Anni

    The question this post addresses is one that I have been thinking about myself, very interesting topic. The guys in the comments here have given me food for thought, but I’m still not completely satisfied.
    .
    For example, there seems to be an agreement that a relationship is not a commitment and the girl is getting used by the guy who only agrees to the “relationship” because he is getting regular sex and she is hot enough. While this may be the case often enough, my observation of real life does not confirm this. I know a couple who got married recently and the woman there is not exactly virginal angel. (It should suffice to say that she cheated on him and he found out.) And my question to male commenters here: why? Why did he marry her? Is it because he thinks he can’t do any better? She is hot, yes, but so is he. He certainly is not one of those men who doesn’t have any options. Or does he just think all women are like this and she is easy enough to live with and so the good outweighs the bad? Surely it is a very negative world-view to assume that it is impossible to find a good woman who would be faithful if you want one?
    .
    I have another thought here and a question for male commenters. For women finding a guy for a relationship let alone marriage is difficult nowadays. What I hear from the men here is that if a woman is a slut (what does that mean? anything but a virgin? more than two partners? more than 10? 20? 30?) then she is pretty much doomed to never marry and end up as a lonely crazy cat lady. On the other hand, if a woman is a virgin then she would do well to wait until marriage. However, what would the male commenters here recommend to a woman who is not a virgin but not a slut either (less than 10 partners, if that qualifies for not being a slut)? It seems to me that the men here assume that if a woman has had some casual sex then she must have embraced her inner slut and wants to have her cake and eat it too by having casual sex in her early twentis but get married to a good man later. In my opinion, this is what men want (i.e. casual sex) and it is not the case at all with most women. I dare to say that for most women, having casual sex is emotionally painful. We end up having it because of inexperience (guys using young girls who don’t know better), feminist dogma (it is almost socially unacceptable to want a relationship or marriage, so a lot of women can’t even admit to themselves that that’s what they want, especially young women who are more easily influenced by these ideas and don’t know themselves well enough to know what they really want), and once a woman has been burnt a few times she learns to handle the pain of casual sex a bit better and learns to keep her expectations low (it’s a survival mode), while to give up men altogether would be a lot to ask (biological imperative to continue the species and that all). I would argue that women end up with a number of partners not because they want to have casual sex, but because (almost) each time they fell in love and thought he was “the one” but suffered many dissappointments. For a woman then to try to find a man to marry is an endless struggle with heartache with no way out unless she is lucky and/or has really good instincts. It’s a sad state of affairs really.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anni

      I dare to say that for most women, having casual sex is emotionally painful. We end up having it because of inexperience (guys using young girls who don’t know better), feminist dogma (it is almost socially unacceptable to want a relationship or marriage, so a lot of women can’t even admit to themselves that that’s what they want, especially young women who are more easily influenced by these ideas and don’t know themselves well enough to know what they really want), and once a woman has been burnt a few times she learns to handle the pain of casual sex a bit better and learns to keep her expectations low (it’s a survival mode), while to give up men altogether would be a lot to ask (biological imperative to continue the species and that all).

      I agree that this is the conundrum many, if not most, young women face. The guys have acknowledged that men under 25 or so don’t want commitment – only casual sex. That means women in college should expect to hook up casually, or be chaste. That’s not a very attractive choice. This is why I said that it seems like we need one strategy in college, another for afterwards.
      .
      I don’t get to decide what men consider slutty, but personally I think that a woman who reaches her mid-20s as she hits double digits should not consider herself a slut or damaged in some way for future pair bonding. That view is at odds with some of the men who comment here, but only 4% of women are virgins at 26, and most of those are highly religious. It isn’t realistic to advise women to begin menstruating at 11 and stay virgins for 15 years until they marry. The best we can hope for, I think, is that women will avoid sex they know is casual, and do their best to delay sex in any relationship until they know and trust their partner. In fact, just getting to “partner” instead of “stranger” would make a big difference.

  • Jess

    hollenhund -” that contradict their core feminine impulses”
    .
    An absolute gem. Hilarious. With your permission this is going viral on monday at work.
    .
    I hesitate to enquire as to what you imagine they are?
    – cake baking
    Dusting?
    Ironing?
    Looking pretty?
    Being dutiful and subservient?
    .
    There is a very funny you tube video about an actual 40’s public information film that teaches women how to be a housewife.
    “when your husband returns home, fetch him a refreshing drink but don’t talk to him, remember he doesn’t need to hear your trivial questions after a hard day doing important work”.
    Hollenhund you must have been born in the wrong era….

  • Mike C

    I know a couple who got married recently and the woman there is not exactly virginal angel. (It should suffice to say that she cheated on him and he found out.) And my question to male commenters here: why? Why did he marry her? Is it because he thinks he can’t do any better? She is hot, yes, but so is he. He certainly is not one of those men who doesn’t have any options. Or does he just think all women are like this and she is easy enough to live with and so the good outweighs the bad?
    .
    It is hard to generalize to a specific example. I don’t know why he married her. Could be a combination of factors, possibly a little of each of the things you’ve mentioned. Maybe he does indeed think he can’t do much better. Maybe he does genuinely love her despite her negatives such as the cheating.
    .
    One thing I’ve realized from many of the female commenters is a generally universal belief that because a guy is “hot” from a purely physical view, that must mean he has a ton of options. I can absolutely state that isn’t necessarily true, especially if the guy wasn’t always physically attractive, and doesn’t have the confidence to match his looks. So it is a mistake to just look at a guy, and think “he must have a ton of girls knocking on his door, why is he with her”?
    .
    To your last sentence/question, I’ve come across a good number of guys with the mentality of “all women are cheating whores” so just deal with it. Obviously, that view is ridiculous but the problem is there is enough counterfeit currency in circulation that you are skeptical of every bill.
    .
    What I hear from the men here is that if a woman is a slut (what does that mean? anything but a virgin? more than two partners? more than 10? 20? 30?)
    .
    I think it varies from guy to guy. There is no “4 is not a slut but 5 is”. In my view, the answer is really simple without giving an exact number. A slut is a woman who has had large amounts of casual/non-relationship sex. So if you are 25, and had 1 one-night stand, a couple of hook-ups, and 3-4 boyfriends, I don’t see that as “slutty”. I think some hardcore guys would view that differently. If you are 22-25 and you’ve sampled 30-40 different cocks, then yeah, that is slutty. If you’ve been that “easy” with 40 other guys, then my expectation is you’ll be that easy with me. Why should I commit to anything with you? Just give it up quick for me like the 40 previous guys. Why should I work/invest for what you’ve already given away with minimal effort? That is how most guys think, except for fake Internet persona guys. If you mostly/only have had sex with boyfriends, then my expectation is I’ll have to be your boyfriend to get sex.
    .
    I would argue that women end up with a number of partners not because they want to have casual sex, but because (almost) each time they fell in love and thought he was “the one” but suffered many dissappointments.
    .
    Right, but how many times does this have to happen before one must think you are really stupid and an extremely poor judge of character. Once? Yeah. Twice? Yeah. Three times? Maybe. Four times? Could be. 10-20 times? You’d have to be a total idiot at this point. Again though, I am differentiating between casual sex and relationship sex. Sex with a boyfriend of many months is not casual sex in my opinion.
    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      One thing I’ve realized from many of the female commenters is a generally universal belief that because a guy is “hot” from a purely physical view, that must mean he has a ton of options. I can absolutely state that isn’t necessarily true, especially if the guy wasn’t always physically attractive, and doesn’t have the confidence to match his looks.

      Here you are really talking about the alpha/beta divide. In my experience, this has nothing to do with looks, but a great deal to do with confidence. There are some gorgeous beta guys around – they get lots of attention from women, but they are earnest, good men who just don’t have it in them to be players. This is the origin for the hope of landing a handsome, good guy – they do exist. Men like this won’t satisfy a woman with a strong urge to be dominated, however. I’ve seen these guys do extremely well initially in high school and college, only to flame out by being too predictable, too devoted a boyfriend, etc.
      .
      Game is hugely helpful to beta guys at all levels of attractiveness, and alpha males range from very handsome to extremely ugly (sexy ugly). It’s not possible to look at a guy’s photo and have any idea how well he does with women. You must see him interacting with women to get a real sense of this.

  • Höllenhund

    Jess, I find it hilarious that you’re still trying to somehow trick me through half-assed and dull feminist attempts at sarcasm into accepting guilt by association. Do you seriously think that your lame shaming language will make me try to distance myself from the supposedly dreadful mentality of the patriarchal oppressors of the past? The “villains” who built the most advanced civilization the world has ever known? Do you actually believe I care that your co-workers, probably as indoctrinated with feminism as you are, will find my words hilarious? As if any thinking man cared about the opinion of such learned bearers of wisdom.

    cake baking
    Dusting?
    Ironing?
    Looking pretty?
    Being dutiful and subservient?

    Women don’t have any natural aversion towards any of these. In fact they will gladly perform them in a relationship as long as they’re attracted to their partner. This, of course, assumes that he presents himself as dominant.

    when your husband returns home, fetch him a refreshing drink but don’t talk to him, remember he doesn’t need to hear your trivial questions after a hard day doing important work

    You’re probably referring to a well-known hoax:

    http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.asp

    Other that that there’s nothing wrong with this particular advice. The last part of the sentence is fact.

    Young women are encouraged by the feminist-dominated media to delay marriage, have lots of casual sex and assume the dominant, decision-making role in their relationships. This constitutes poor guidance for a number of reasons. Women mostly don’t find one-night stands enjoyable, their biological clock normally makes late marriage a bad idea, and they mostly cannot be happy in a relationship with a feminized, betaized man that they can dominate. Women don’t like it when they’re left to make all the important decisions in a relationship. It’s women’s nature to submit to a dominant man that they are attracted to. That’s what I meant by my original statement. This was either perfectly clear to you (in which case you simply decided to act like it wasn’t because you again preferred lame sarcasm to intelligent debate) or it wasn’t (in which case you have been indoctrinated with feminism to such an extent that you’re incapable of noticing simple truths).

    Either way this was the last time I responded to your snark. If you actually want to make an attempt at honest debate, I’ll be interested.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      cake baking
      Dusting?
      Ironing?
      Looking pretty?
      Being dutiful and subservient?

      Women don’t have any natural aversion towards any of these. In fact they will gladly perform them in a relationship as long as they’re attracted to their partner. This, of course, assumes that he presents himself as dominant.

      .
      I commented on something similar to this on a Dalrock post about stay at home moms. Because I spent 15 years at home, and my husband was the sole provider, I embraced all of these tasks and many more cheerfully. I truly felt that at the end of a workday, my husband should be able to come home to a clean house, glass of wine, and delicious dinner. I “earned my keep” by performing all household management tasks. I try to sincerely inquire about his day, but I never pressure him to converse. Sometimes we chat all through the evening, other times we have a rather quiet dinner followed by reading.
      .
      My husband and I never discussed or negotiated these terms, but the arrangement was implied. And I got off easy, to tell the truth. I bristle at the idea of being subservient – virtually all American women would – but I have tried to be dutiful toward my family. I do think it’s a recipe for marital success.

  • Höllenhund

    other that that = other than that

  • Mike C

    I really want to believe this – I do hope it is true, or at least possible. But I have a sense that some guys will always go for the hot but selfish girls, just as some women will go for cads.

    YES and YES. Some guys will learn from experience, some won’t. Some guys will continue to go for the very hot, but selfish girl just as many women will continue to chase the bad boys. Just human nature, I suppose where some people never mature to the point where their intellectual side can overcome their base impulses.
    .
    That said, many guys will learn from experience that the reasonably attractive good girl is going to be a much better girlfriend/wife then the very attractive selfish bitch, but that comes from experience, and gaining some maturity and wisdom. At the risk of belaboring a point I’ve made a number of times, odds are better that a 28-35 year old guy will have hit that point versus a 20-24 year old guy. So if you are a reasonably attractive, good girl looking for a steady boyfriend you’ve got to fish in the right pond.

  • terre

    I have to admit Mike, your standards seem very unusual to me. One is always entitled to one’s own tastes, but I have to question how a girl who had a one-night stand is not slutty.

  • Höllenhund

    What I hear from the men here is that if a woman is a slut (what does that mean? anything but a virgin? more than two partners? more than 10? 20? 30?)

    I’d say sluthood is defined by sluttish mentality, not numbers. The high notch count is merely the manifestation of that mentality. By that I mean little or no self-control, excessive need for male validation and attention, shamelessness, coarseness, stronger-than-average hypergamy etc.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d say sluthood is defined by sluttish mentality, not numbers.

      Hollenhund, sometimes you surprise me. I’ve got you about 95% figured out, but once in a while you throw a curve ball :)

  • terre

    “However, what would the male commenters here recommend to a woman who is not a virgin but not a slut either (less than 10 partners, if that qualifies for not being a slut)?”
    .
    Again, I have to question a lot of these barometers and numbers games. Think about it for a second: nine partners? Even if she’s thirty-years-old and lost her cherry at fifteen, that’s an average of a partner-swap once every 1.5 years. This is not really normal or healthy behavior no matter how common it may be. Rather than ask what can be done for such girls (who knows?), one would think some broad message of chastity and preservation until marriage would be appropriate. And this is coming from a non-religious man.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre

      Again, I have to question a lot of these barometers and numbers games. Think about it for a second: nine partners? Even if she’s thirty-years-old and lost her cherry at fifteen, that’s an average of a partner-swap once every 1.5 years. This is not really normal or healthy behavior no matter how common it may be.

      .
      I have to go on record here as disagreeing. A partner swap every year and a half may be normal and healthy. It depends. It’s almost certainly normal in this SMP. Look, I’m somewhat conservative now, and was even in my youth, but I dated several men before I met my husband at 25. I also had a few short-term flings in there along the way. I actually don’t know my exact number – we didn’t track it so carefully in the 80s – but it was certainly double digits. I don’t think I’m an exception to the rule, either. I understand that virgins are the best bet for marriage, statistically speaking. But I can tell you that if I’d married the guy I’d lost my virginity to at 19 – a good, not very bright, socially dominant man, I would be divorced for sure by now. Dating – and having sex with – a variety of men, taught me what I wanted in a life partner. What was important (character, intelligence, work ethic) and what wasn’t (looks, dominance, partying). The price I paid for that lesson was dating men across the spectrum between the ages of 17-25. When I got to know my husband, I knew he was the whole package.

  • Florence

    @ Anni

    You just summarized my life. Thank you.

  • Josephine

    @terre – What IS “normal or healthy” sexual behavior? What IS a normal or healthy “partner-swap” average, then?

    I’m a female 20 year old virgin with a currently ravenous and distracting libido and, simultaneously, a paralyzing fear of sex because of all those insane STIs out there. I gotta tell you, all this dissonance doesn’t feel very healthy.

    I agree with Mike C: If I were pursuing a 25 year old guy/girl with a count of, say, seven, it would not raise as many red flags for me if they all (or at least most of them) were with people they were dating exclusively in a LTR kind of way. If the sexual partners were mainly hook-ups/one night stands (really, is there a difference?) that is a HUGE turn off.

  • Florence

    I agree with Höllenhund about sluthood. I know some girls who have a slutty attitude and annoy every body around them, but apparently have reasonably low numbers. Some of them even claim that they are virgins!!! Those girls dress up promiscuous, tease guys, annoy girlfriends by flirting with their guys and hang out with low quality trashy guys. As I said, some of those girls do not have very high numbers, but one would think they do. While on the other hand, I have girlfriends whose numbers approach 20, but do not act like sluts, do not under any circumstances consider themselves anything close to being a slut and if ever get called a slut, consider that a sign of disrespect and rude manners and chose to not associate with that person. These girls are doing graduate degrees, have tons of hobbies and are respected everywhere. Of course, they don’t go around with a number written on their foreheads. They keep these things private.

  • terre

    “I’m a female 20 year old virgin with a currently ravenous and distracting libido and, simultaneously, a paralyzing fear of sex because of all those insane STIs out there. I gotta tell you, all this dissonance doesn’t feel very healthy.”
    .
    There’s nothing at all stopping you from consummating. My advice, and I’m an anonymous Internet stranger, not a member of your family or a figure of authority, is just to choose to consummate in marriage, or at the very least a committed relationship. If you haven’t found anyone you’d be happy committing to, I’d first suggest reexamining your standards; as Roger Devlin says, the average man off the street will almost always suffice as a lover and a father, and the average girl as the same. But if you’re still coming up short, your health’ll be better preserved by simply remaining chaste than seeking out short-lived thrills. Most men have a far higher libido than yourself, but they manage to get by.
    .
    To address your first question, there is no specific “number”; if anything, I’m pointing out that questions about a “number” end in an ever-laxer barometer that normalizes the kind of casual relationships people my age (21) are supposed to find desirable. Is a six-month stint together really a “relationship” in any real sense? In Udolpho’s words, we think today the perfect relationship is simply one where both partners don’t egregiously cheat on one another. This isn’t love; it’s just titillation. One would be better served by a dildo.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre

      Most men have a far higher libido than yourself, but they manage to get by.

      Good point, I actually never thought of this before. I think women crave affection, an emotional connection. We can live without sex quite easily, most of us. Sadly, in the era of hooking up, sex is the path to emotional intimacy.

  • Tor

    @Anni, well I can’t speak for all men, but I can speak for myself and that may provide some insight from a man who prefers monogamy / LT relations. I personally am a one woman man ( monogamous 11yrs, married 5 of those ) so my standards for who I choose are very high ( looks, attitude, compatibility, etc. ) and for me, my ethics and keeping to them is a source of self-respect and self-knowledge. I won’t give those things up for cheap thrills, but I do crave those thrills like any other red-blooded man, so good, hot sex is a critical factor. For me, a monogamous relationship is admittedly in part a pragmatic choice, I want to be with a woman I will desire and respect, which precludes cheating on her, or walking away from the emotional/temporal investment casually. Keeping my standards makes it possible imo to select women who will reciprocate in kind on the basis of their respect and desire for me. I have a jealous and passionate streak, so having a woman who is equal parts passionate and faithful is imperative. My sexuality is oriented towards quality and intensity of experience, so a long string of mediocre and possibly awkward hookups, with all the attendant games, drama, and disappointment has no appeal; that’s just irritainment, so no thanks. The kind of sex-life that is really worth striving for is also desirable to commit to, it requires a high level of mutual desire and trust, things that you can’t get in casual encounters. My feeling has always been, if the sex is awesome, I am most certainly not going to feel like sharing, I will want her for myself alone, and I will want to know that she is just as intent. That’s not to say monogamy is easy, it’s probably more difficult, I just think it’s the better choice and I prefer the result. Both partners have to be committed to pleasing and exciting each other, as simply committing to “be together” won’t wash, that sucks the romance out of it and turns it into a chore, after all, if it’s not passionate, you’re actually just friends no matter how often you fuck.

    Another element in the choices I made about women involved my experience as a teenager, I was somewhere in the toward the nice-guy end of spectrum, i.e. if I wanted to have a girl friend, I knew I could find one, but I often couldn’t have the one I wanted, c’est la vie. I don’t settle so this meant that I often went without, while the douche-bags ( some of whom were friends ) fucked and chucked with relative impunity. The frustration and jealousy of this situation led me to despise the cads, but eventually, to also despise the women who continually fell for them, but would not take me, or other decent guys seriously. It often shocked me that women who hooked up with them would end up hurt, crying, and angry at “MEN” and were surprised that they were treated as cheap and disposable by guys who never showed any respect for anyone else, and were quite often cruel. Think about it, a guy who is arrogant, and treats everyone except a small clique of male friends disrespectfully gives a girl romantic attention, and rather than weighing the evidence of her senses and the way he treats everybody else, she thinks she’s going to be the exception. It happens so regularly and is now such a cliche, that you have to wonder why they bother crying about it at all. I’m older and wiser now, and I once again feel compassion for their pain, but for a long time I felt nothing.

    If you’re interested in commitment oriented men, be aware that the following is an experience nearly all of us have had; the pain of rejection/loneliness + the pain of watching the girl you’re crushing on hurt by the same type of guys that disrespect you + confusion and inability to understand why she would rather have some asshole’s abuse than your love.

    So with that said, no guy who is commitment oriented is really going to care how many men you’ve slept with, your # just don’t matter, what DOES matter is whether or not you honestly want and value him sexually, and that you’re not actually with him for other reasons, such as emotional support or even love. Many nice guys have been the emotional support / platonic love for women who just won’t stop giving it up to dirt-bags and clowns, so be sure that if you want a nice, committed guy, that it really is exactly what you want. If you just want a good guy for emotional support and consider sex a cute perk, don’t bother, we’ve seen that before, ad nauseum.

    It bears mentioning here that most nice guys really do need to get off their asses and rebuild their confidence and reflect on their inherent, natural value as men, and actively cultivate attractive qualities. I certainly don’t expect any woman to find “lovable losers” erotic, so that is definitely part of the problem for women, many of the good guys simply won’t be able to meet their sexual needs.

    I would encourage women who want a good guy and commitment, regardless of their sexual past to consider what the typical adolescent/early sexual experience of a good guy tends to be, it will help you to understand why most good guys, by the time they have reached a realistic age to marry, have either sworn off women and invested themselves in some addictive hobby, or joined the cads and learned their trade. A percentage keep trying, but interested ladies are going to have to hunt pretty aggressively to find them, because they are not the type you’re going to meet in a bar, and you’re going to have to get past alot of shyness and caution to get at the meat. Social conditions for nice guys are such that if you want one, you will have to be the aggressor – if not in every instance, most definitely in your hunt generally.

    You’re also going to have to be far more blunt, to the point of being salacious and crude to get your point across, as most of these gents are not going to be accustomed to approaching/being hit on, taken home, or taking women home.

    Blame feminism imo, but ladies if you want a good guy, you won’t get anywhere if you wait for him to sweep you off your feet, a most of them are just too shy – you will have to sweep him off of his, at least at first. There is an upside, if you find one of the good ones, and your sexual attention is genuine it will bring him out of his shell pretty quick, and he’s likely to naturally take on a masculine role in your life as long as you are explicitly clear that it’s him that you want. Don’t bother dropping hints, they mean little or nothing to guys, and most of the good-guy pool won’t interpret them correctly anyway. BE BLUNT, don’t mince your words even slightly for effect. ex: if you want to date, say – “I want to date you”, not “do you want to get a coffee sometime?”, if you’re waiting for him to make a move, stop waiting and say “I want you to make a move on me”. Sound corny? slutty? desperate? as long as it’s sincere, and you mean it, it’s actually just the most rational thing you can say in a SMP which is hostile to people who prefer any form of traditional relationship. You can say the SMP favors men currently, but the reality is that it only serves the same abusive jerks who cleaned up in high-school, college etc. Decent guys get just as raw a deal as decent girls. Hope that helps !

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tor
      Your comment to the women made me cry – I’m not sure why. It was just really honest and heartfelt, and incorporated your own past pain. Thank you so much, for your time, effort and honesty. I think this comment needs to be a post on its own.

  • Mike C

    I have to admit Mike, your standards seem very unusual to me. One is always entitled to one’s own tastes, but I have to question how a girl who had a one-night stand is not slutty.
    .
    Yeah, I don’t know (shrugs). Like I said, I don’t think I’m hardcore. I think I’m pretty moderate in my views here, which is why I find amusing that Jess seems to think I am a torch bearer of 1950s patriarchy.
    .
    Here’s the thing. People make mistakes. Sometimes, someone has to do something once to find out it isn’t for them. Not to mention, take a 18-22 year old girl and she really is a girl just as a 18-22 year old male is a boy, and put her with a super alpha showing interest, and she easily could make a mistake. Very easily could mistake the guy’s desire for an easy lay with sincere interest. Am I going to brand that girl with a scarlet S? Heck no. That is just nuts. Now if she goes on to fuck 20 more random guys over the rest of her college days, that is a different story.

  • terre

    “[...] in a LTR kind of way [...]”
    .
    Again, it’s this kind of language that causes me to be so resistant to devolving into a discussion on what’s an acceptable “number”, or what the window is for a girl to have flings or whatever. By framing the discussion this way, you accept so much about health and love implicitly that the product of any intellectual excursion is tainted by that framing; tell a girl she can swap partners once every few years and that’ll be the quality of love she’ll experience. Degenerating to the point where being together “in a [sic] LTR kind of way” is something laudable is precisely what I want to avoid.

  • Cercando di capire

    Young women are encouraged by the feminist-dominated media to delay marriage, have lots of casual sex and assume the dominant, decision-making role in their relationships.

    Delaying of marriage is directly correlated to industrialization and the need to no longer have large families as was economically necessary in agrarian communities.

    More specifically, age of marriage increases and number of children per women decreases in tandem; both are directly correlated with the education level of women and secondarily to social policies that are child friendly. This trend is seen across many cultures & societies and within a society, e.g. 1st generation families vs 2nd generation families, educated US black women vs less educated black women, Japan, Italy, Northern Europe, other East Asian countries, Brazil…

    Young women are encouraged by the feminist-dominated media to delay marriage, have lots of casual sex and assume the dominant, decision-making role in their relationships. This constitutes poor guidance for a number of reasons. Women mostly don’t find one-night stands enjoyable

    The book ‘Sex at Dawn’ cites other reasons why women may pursue casual sex. Otherwise one study seems to challenge the reasons women may find one-nighters unfulfilling:

    “Campbell surveyed more than 3,300 individuals, most of whom were between the ages of 17 and 40. Of the heterosexual respondents, more than half reported a one-night stand, about evenly split between men and women.

    Overall women’s morning-after feelings were more negative than men’s. While 80 percent of men had overall positive feelings, just 54 percent of women had positive feelings.”

    Women predominantly reported “regret at being used,” with additional comments including: “I felt cheap,” “horrified afterward,” and “I felt degraded. Made myself look cheap and easy. Total regret.”

    The authors note an evolutionary motive for women and one-night stands; yet women’s emotional responses are largely socially motivated (i.e., regret is reasonable from an evolutionary psychology standpoint, but feeling degraded and used is clearly a social judgement).

    http://www.livescience.com/health/080710-onenight-stand.html

    their biological clock normally makes late marriage a bad idea,

    However later marriages correlate positively with longer lasting (more successful?) marriages. Could be a reasonable trade-off (within reason), especially in light of advances in assisted fertility technology.

    It’s women’s nature to submit to a dominant man that they are attracted to.

    Actually it’s men’s nature to submit to other men. Most secondary male sex traits are to compete with and in some cases to dominate other men. In fact, polygyny (which is spoken so highly of, strangely) is only sustainable only under extreme measures of social male domination (i.e., homicide/war, social sequestration (high percentages of adult black males incarcerated), shunning of adolescent men from the community (religious fundamentalists).

    Men mistake the female desire for a male strength as submission because this is how men relate to each other.

    Women on the other hand desire strength (physical, character, social) because it can be an indicator of good genes and high status. Wanting this is not submission any more than calling a man “submitting” to a young fertile woman by entering into a marriage with her and foregoing other sex opportunities.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cercando di capire
      I’m suspicious of the motives of the authors of Sex at Dawn. They have an open marriage, and believe that polyamory is natural. I disagree. The very real human emotion of jealousy intrudes upon polyamorous relationships. It’s a model suited to a very small percentage of people.
      .
      It’s a real dilemma that successful marriages tend to be between older individuals, but that fertility is significantly compromised by the late 20s.

  • Jess

    To hollenhund
    Blimey!” It’s womens desire to submit to the man they are attracted to”. Umm. Ok.
    You have a real lucky lady waiting for you.
    .
    Susan,
    No I didn’t mean your hubby, I meant other experiences you alluded to. I may have misrecalled though. If so please accept my apologies.
    Also I know we have very different histories and views.
    .
    Mike c,
    I don’t actually. In fact we agree on some areas and I even quoted you when describing my take on numbers.

  • Florence

    Ok, so what about relationships that we actually enjoyed? Not all guys a girl has slept with are mistakes. We’re often friends with some exes. People just chose to separate because they thought that they were incompatible in the long term, but are still friends. Other couples separated because someone moved to a different country and didn’t want to torture themselves with a long-distance relationship and instead chose to remain friends. My point is that not all situations that cause a girl to have a high number are bad situations or the result of “slutty” behavior…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous
      Honestly, in the current sexual marketplace, it’s extremely easy for a woman to get a “high number.” I do not mean to say that a woman who has meaningful sex should be ashamed of any of it. I do think, however, that a woman should avoid “what the hell” sex. It can have no benefit, and can contribute to a woman’s feeling cynical and jaded about sex.

  • terre

    Florence, if you’re asking me, your scenarios are too vague for me to give any hard answer. Generally speaking, if the relationship was strong enough or grounded on anything firm it would’ve lasted; they would’ve moved together. I’ve no doubt however that many girls “actually enjoy” these relationships, that’s not in question.
    .
    I also have to remind the both of us that a lack of “slutty behavior” is not the only reason men prefer virginal women, or even the main one.

  • Florence

    Well, indeed most college relationships are not grounded on anything firm. Both females and males lack the maturity to make more appropriate judgments. Not to mention that nowadays the trend among girls is that one of the prerequisites for marring a guy or settling for the long term with him is how good he is in bed. Girls do not want to marry some guy and find out that they are sexually incompatible and or that they guy has a low libido…this is how today’s college girls think, where you like it or not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Girls do not want to marry some guy and find out that they are sexually incompatible and or that they guy has a low libido…this is how today’s college girls think, where you like it or not.

      One of my closest friends in college was a woman who dated a religious guy. He would not have sex, but would do everything but. This went on for four years, then they married. I was a bridesmaid. Within two years, they were divorced, because even after marriage he didn’t want to have intercourse, just everything but. I actually heard an update about her recently – she never remarried, never had children. She was very attractive, and I thought it was a sad outcome.

  • Mike C

    Ok, so what about relationships that we actually enjoyed? Not all guys a girl has slept with are mistakes. We’re often friends with some exes. People just chose to separate because they thought that they were incompatible in the long term, but are still friends. Other couples separated because someone moved to a different country and didn’t want to torture themselves with a long-distance relationship and instead chose to remain friends. My point is that not all situations that cause a girl to have a high number are bad situations or the result of “slutty” behavior…
    .
    This could easily devolve into a sort of “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” type of thing.
    .
    Alright, let’s say you are 35. In that case, it seems plausible you could have had 10 relationships that didn’t work out for various reasons.
    .
    If you are 22-23 though, that is just ludicrous. There is no way you could have had 10 relationships by that age unless you define relationships as we went out on 2-3 dates, and I fucked him on date 2 or 3.
    .
    Sometimes, on this issue, I feel like we are the supreme court debating pornography? What is it? Do we need to see the women’s vag? What about 2 people fucking but no genitals showing? Is that porn?
    .
    Here’s the thing. From a pragmatic perspective (not a moralistic one, since women presumably want relationships with men) it is men who get to define what constitutes “slutty”, not women. I think most “middle of the road” moderate guys are in the same place here. And there really isn’t much point in getting overly legalistic in terms of trying to carve out technicalities.
    .
    As a side point, the whole “friends with exes” is kind of a non-starter. If the guy has fucked you, and you still look the same way, he still wants to fuck you, maybe minus the associated relationship stuff. I can’t say for sure, but I think women can more easily switch off or lose the sexual feelings for a previous lover. Guys, if the physical attraction is there, no way. In his head, he is still thinking about fucking you. Some casual very infrequent contact maybe, but I would never tolerate my GF being “friends” with any exes. That is simply opening a Pandora’s box that doesn’t need to be opened.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As a side point, the whole “friends with exes” is kind of a non-starter. If the guy has fucked you, and you still look the same way, he still wants to fuck you, maybe minus the associated relationship stuff. I can’t say for sure, but I think women can more easily switch off or lose the sexual feelings for a previous lover. Guys, if the physical attraction is there, no way. In his head, he is still thinking about fucking you. Some casual very infrequent contact maybe, but I would never tolerate my GF being “friends” with any exes. That is simply opening a Pandora’s box that doesn’t need to be opened.

      This is a total revelation. You are correct – women usually lose the impulse to fuck an ex. It’s fascinating to learn how men are different. And it means that women should attach ZERO significance to guys still finding them attractive even after the relationship is over. It doesn’t mean he wants to go back to being emotionally intimate. Emotional and physical intimacy are entwined for women, separate for men.

  • terre

    I back again what Mike C has said, particularly about “exes”.
    .
    As a side note, I’ve never, ever understood what “sexually incompatible” means. To this day I don’t know if it’s some kind of weasel word or what. Why would you be together if you’re not attracted enough to sleep with each other?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre
      I can tell you about sexual incompatibility. My college bf and I rarely had the opportunity to have sex. So when we managed it every couple of weeks, we were both psyched. Then we took a trip to Europe together after graduation. I was shocked and devastated that he didn’t desire sex every day. Multiple times per day! Why walk around Paris when we have this big comfy featherbed? I recall being completely sexually frustrated on that trip. It was definitely the beginning of the end.

  • Tor

    @terre, Sexually incompatible means sexual tastes differ in a way that makes it impossible for one or both partners to fully express themselves sexually, or find sexual sexual fulfillment in the sex they have. Attraction is one thing, but it’s something else entirely if person A’s desire is rough and kinky, while person B’s desire is for tender and vanilla. If neither A nor B can find the same eroticism in each other’s tastes, neither will be satisfied.

  • Florence

    @ Terre:

    A sexually incompatibility may be the result of many factors. (libido, ability to be adventurous and romantic, ability to care for the other person, weird fetishes, or anything else that would make the sexual experience unpleasant for one or both partners). Women nowadays are particularly careful about finding a guy they have enjoy sex with because apparently a lot of the cheating incidents in marriages occur because either the woman or the man is not sexually fulfilled.

    For example, a guy who is not sexually compatible would be a guy who just lays in bed and waits for the woman to do everything. He doesn’t know what a woman likes or makes very little effort to learn.

    Other stories I’ve heard come from women who apparently were so unsatisfied with the sexual experience that they would wait until their husbands go to sleep, so that they can do their won thing under the blankets. Others resort to cheating.

    A friend of mine was with a guy who was a great boyfriend, got along well with her family and wanted to propose to her, but was really bad in bed. He was just insecure about everything he did, constantly asking her if she liked something or not and she ended up feeling nothing close to being swept away by that. She couldn’t accept that and they broke up.

  • http://ft.com VJ

    From Florence: “Not to mention that nowadays the trend among girls is that one of the prerequisites for marring [sic] a guy or settling for the long term with him is how good he is in bed. Girls do not want to marry some guy and find out that they are sexually incompatible and or that they guy has a low libido…this is how today’s college girls think, where you like it or not”.
    .
    Yes, no doubt about it, this is how the younger set thinks. And it’ll still likely exclude perhaps upwards of 50% of the male population. Why? The infamous ‘Catch-22′ of a logic trap you well describe here. How do you get good at sex? Well with practice. And Not Just With Yourself! You Need a Willing Partner to Practice on! So if you’re a typical ‘shy beta’, you’re SOL here too! One more thing to fail at before you even get started. No matter that you might even become a ‘star’ given half a chance and some level of comfort. Because you typically won’t be given the chance or the time to develop your skills with that partner.
    .
    That’s what’s behind some of those yes, astronomical numbers we see on the younger set. If it ‘doesn’t work out’ or does not ‘feel spectacular’ or the ‘equipment is substandard’? They usually move on after a few ‘trys’. Quickly & efficiently. No relationship needed. And certainly no relationship need be ever ‘held hostage’ by the unfortunate fact of ‘poor performance’. If it’s a failing or barely passing grade by her quickly developing and by now finely tuned performance standards? Florence is quite correct, the women are quite intolerant about it all. They ‘don’t have to put up with it’. They’d rather be single with their ‘toys’ or ‘boy toys’ rather than ‘suffer though’ the indignity of trying to get her partner ‘up to speed’. Hence the dystopia we see on the topic of ‘numbers’! The gals ‘don’t, won’t & can’t just understand the concern’, and the guys really can’t explain the real difference! Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VJ

      How do you get good at sex? Well with practice. And Not Just With Yourself! You Need a Willing Partner to Practice on! So if you’re a typical ‘shy beta’, you’re SOL here too! One more thing to fail at before you even get started. No matter that you might even become a ‘star’ given half a chance and some level of comfort. Because you typically won’t be given the chance or the time to develop your skills with that partner.

      .
      Any woman who is looking for a superbly skilled lover is a woman who wants a cad. She is by definition stating that she welcomes, even demands, his having had many conquests before. A woman who is interested in a genuine compatibility on all fronts will welcome an earnest man who is willing to read cues and learn. Every woman is different, and I can recall being extremely turned off in my youth by men who thought they knew it all. When in fact what they knew was what pleased their most recent sexual partner.
      .
      “What is that weird thing you are doing with your tongue?” “Softer! Softer!”
      .
      What turns one person on is painful for the next. Every couple needs to find its own rhythms and ways of touching.

  • Anni

    @Mike C
    “One thing I’ve realized from many of the female commenters is a generally universal belief that because a guy is “hot” from a purely physical view, that must mean he has a ton of options. I can absolutely state that isn’t necessarily true, especially if the guy wasn’t always physically attractive, and doesn’t have the confidence to match his looks.”
    .
    I specifically used the word “hot” to avoid saying “physically attractive”. It is agreed here thet when a woman is “hot” then it means mainly physical attractiveness and when a man is “hot” then it can mean other things as well. I used the word “hot” to refer to all the things that men can have that make them attractive to women, meaning that he has them. And I know for a fact that he has women knocking on his door.
    .
    Re what has been said about defining sluthood, I tend to agree with the view that it is not a certain number of partners but rather a mentality. I suspect that guys here exaggerate the importance of virginity to them when in real life they would be less judgemental of a woman who has had a number of partners if she doesn’t have the “slut” mentality. Emphasising virginity stems from the wish to “be on the safe side” since it is difficult to tell based on numbers alone what kind of attitude the woman has. But its’t that why it’s important to get to know your partner in the first place?

  • Höllenhund

    I’m a female 20 year old virgin with a currently ravenous and distracting libido and, simultaneously, a paralyzing fear of sex because of all those insane STIs out there. I gotta tell you, all this dissonance doesn’t feel very healthy.

    Your genes don’t give a shit about you. Their goal is to replicate, not make you happy. – Roissy

  • AnonymousF

    Many of the comments above don’t reflect my reality, so without getting into an ideological battle about how people “should” feel, I’ll just describe what I see going on in real life, at least among highly educated yuppie types like myself in their mid-20’s to early 30’s: my friends, acquaintances, classmates, and coworkers.

    On promiscuity and numbers: If a girl isn’t an outlier compared to the men and women the guy is surrounded by and accustomed to, he won’t care. If she is an outlier numerically, but isn’t conspicuous about it and blends in as typical and doesn’t actively throw it in the guy’s face, he probably won’t care either unless the number is in the triple digits or the result of a career in sex work. It’s not common for guys to ask girls about their “number,” if anyone asks, it’s usually the girl who gets nosy and jealous.

    On virginity and sex: There’s no real payoff to being a virgin in terms of improved or expanded dating options. Most men and women alike will balk at a demand of abstinence-until-marriage, but most guys are willing to give a girl plenty of time if they like her, definitely more than three dates.

    On marriage: Almost all straight guys expect to marry and have kids one day. By my age, most men and women are either married, engaged, or in LTR’s. I’m getting hitched this year myself. I don’t know how many of the LTR’s will result in marriages, but almost all of them appear to be in good faith, getting to know each other and trying to decide if the person is “the one” or not. The majority of single folks are looking for LTR’s. Some are still playing the field the way many more of us did in college. Some are just very awkward or appear not to be interested in the opposite sex at all. Many of the single people are pestered by anxious parents and relatives who constantly pressure them to go on blind dates and admonish them not to be “so picky.”

    On getting/keeping guys: Don’t bore him. Share some things in common with him, but also have qualities that are complementary to his weak spots. Have your own interests, friends and activities so that he’s not pressured to entertain you 24/7. 80% of the success is in choosing the right guy for you rather than trying to imitate other girls to get and hold on to someone who is probably more right for them than for you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AnonymousF
      Thanks for that valuable testimony. Are you in your late 20s? I couldn’t help but wonder as I read your take on the dating/mating scene. And congrats on your upcoming wedding!

  • Aldonza

    One thing I’ve realized from many of the female commenters is a generally universal belief that because a guy is “hot” from a purely physical view, that must mean he has a ton of options. I can absolutely state that isn’t necessarily true, especially if the guy wasn’t always physically attractive, and doesn’t have the confidence to match his looks.”

    .
    Newsflash, it’s the same for women. Even very attractive women. They can learn to send out signals saying “Don’t approach!” that all but the boldest men heed. And then when the bold men approach, they sometimes don’t believe them. It can take a lot for a women to become comfortable with her innate attractiveness to the opposite sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It can take a lot for a women to become comfortable with her innate attractiveness to the opposite sex.

      Agreed. I think this has something to do with the way woman are raised. But there’s also a cultural piece – I was listening to a couple of young women talk today about getting apartments in the Boston area, and one advised the other, “Don’t move to Allston. I lived there for three years, and got eye-raped every time I walked down the street.” Women vary a great deal in their comfort levels when being stared at.

  • Aldonza

    As a side note, I’ve never, ever understood what “sexually incompatible” means. To this day I don’t know if it’s some kind of weasel word or what. Why would you be together if you’re not attracted enough to sleep with each other?

    .
    What’s to understand? Sexual compatibility is composed of quite a few things. Basic libido, physical attraction (which can change over time due to changes in appearance/hormones), skill levels (which can also change over time) and attitudes towards sex.
    .
    Frankly, this is why, despite all the talk here about fucking the sluts and marrying the virgins, a lot of alphas do end up with sluts. They’re sexually compatible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Frankly, this is why, despite all the talk here about fucking the sluts and marrying the virgins, a lot of alphas do end up with sluts. They’re sexually compatible

      From a purely strategic point of view, this suggests that women who want to marry a very high status male should be prepared to blow his mind sexually – even if that means learning the ropes in a way he’d rather not know about.

  • Aldonza

    And all of this talk of why men end up with bitches (and women with cads) ignores some basics of human psychology. Note, this is *not* physical attraction I’m talking about. Men can lust after just about any reasonably attractive woman. This is that pull they feel beyond “she’s hot.”
    .
    The major theories of relationships all seem to agree that we’re most compelled by people who remind us (in positive *and* negative ways) of our primary caregivers. These people feel familiar. Strangely enough, it seems to the be negative traits that have the most pull. Yeah, it can be summarized as “mommy issues” and “daddy issues” but it’s a lot more complex and interesting than that. It isn’t the actual traits that explain as much as how they might trigger very primal feelings.
    .
    This is why you might find a great guy who is head over heals with a woman who creates drama that unconsciously remind him of the histrionics that his mother used to engage in. Or a woman who is drawn to men who come on strong and then retreat, leaving her trying harder to get his positive approval. Makes no sense to the casual observer who sees people who have other options. Sure they have other options. But the other options don’t trigger something deep in them.
    .
    And I know there will be men who will insist that they are supremely logical. Unless you’re an android, you have emotions. You had imperfect parenting that left triggers. Get this, you’re human.
    .
    Game makes use of some of the more common triggers in women. Not all women have them, but most of us do, to some degree. But guess what, there are triggers in men too. And not all of them start with a wonder-bra and end with a hairflip.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Aldonza

      The major theories of relationships all seem to agree that we’re most compelled by people who remind us (in positive *and* negative ways) of our primary caregivers. These people feel familiar

      At the risk of sounding uninformed – Really? I tend to view the mommy/daddy issues explanation as a holdover from an earlier era. I will admit, though, that it makes perfect sense that childhood experiences from caregivers would influence one’s emotional receptivity.

  • Brendan

    The “slut” issue is going to vary wildly by individual guy. There is no universal number of standard that every single guy will apply, although it *is * fair to say that once you’re over a certain highish number (say 50) *most* guys, if they knew, would at least pause. Some would consider and continue and others would not. Below that number, which is where almost all women are, there’s a great deal of variety among men in terms of what is an acceptable threshold and so on. It depends on the individual guy, his background, his own belief system (if any) among other things. A key here is for women with a certain level of “adventurousness” to fish in ponds of men who are more tolerant for a higher degree of adventurousness, and vice versa for women with more modest histories.

    As far as sexual compatibility is concerned, the rising importance of this as a selection factor, of course, only adds to the difficulty. As VJ has pointed out, the best male lovers are going to be the ones who are more experienced. That doesn’t mean *all* very sexually experienced guys are good lovers — of course many of them are selfish lovers. But an inexperienced guy or a guy with a modest sexual history will often not have had enough experience to become a skilled lover, yet, so he gets tossed on the reject pile. When that happens, the challenge for women in selecting mates mounts tremendously, it seems to me. Good sex is based on good communication and getting to know your lover’s needs and, yes, some basic level of security with oneself. It also depends on how people are feeling physically and mentally, stress levels, other things going on in their lives and so on.

    Over the course of a marriage, there will be longish periods when there is *no* sex taking place, for various reasons, including pregnancy, post-partum and other health issues for either spouse. Placing such a huge importance on sexual performance as a selection criteria unfortunately overemphasizes the role of “technical sexuality” in the marital problems that are being described here. Typically, sexual problems that arise in marriage are symptoms of other problems — communication problems, lingering resentments, growing unattraction, physical or mental health issues, stress levels and so on. What happens is that these issues go unaddressed and they end up expressing themselves in a lackluster or dwindling down sex life, people get into a rut, and then they *blame* the sexual symptom for wrecking the marriage, when in fact it was an underlying problem that led to the sexual problem. In reality, very, very few people are truly “sexually incompatible” in a marriage-ending sense. In most cases, the sexual problems people blame for ending the marriage are a symptom of other issues, and how those other issues ended up playing themselves out in the marriage. Thinking that you will somehow sidestep these problems down the road in a marriage by “diagnosing sexual incompatibility” on the front end is a dangerous myth.

    I would say that only the truly sexually “unique” people (i.e., people who have a very fetishized, fringe sexuality that is not mainstream or shared by most people) need to take a lot of care in sexual compatibility in mate selection. I’ve had people involved in the BDSM subculture explain to me that they could never be in a relationship with a “vanilla” (the lovely non-judgmental word they use for mainstream people) person. That makes sense to me in a way because one thinks of other as perverse, while the other has “needs” that cannot be met by the “vanilla” person with his/her “hangups”. Beyond that, however, I think making sexual compatibility an up-front selection issue as a means of avoiding sexual issues arising in marriage is a bit of a fool’s errand because it misunderstands the basis for how these sexual problems in marriages generally develop to begin with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan

      Over the course of a marriage, there will be longish periods when there is *no* sex taking place, for various reasons, including pregnancy, post-partum and other health issues for either spouse.

      I don’t know if it’s just my circle of women friends, but I’ve been surprised to learn that quite a few of them have only occasional sex. Some only a few times a year. Their marriages appear to be stable, from an outsider’s perspective – but the sex is infrequent.
      .
      I recall when I was constantly frazzled caring for kids – not really very interested in sex. My husband basically made it clear he was unwilling to remain in a sexless marriage. At the time, I complied unenthusiastically. But now I wonder whether some of my friends managed to permanently redefine expectations for sex in their marriages.

  • filrabat

    The “how many is too many” issue is just BEGGING for a real study about the matter – large enough to be practically a small book. Question 2000 men a piece in each cohort regarding race, education, economic background of parents, urban/suburban and rural split, religious background. Then determine the number range for “what’s the sluthood threshold” for 50, 80, 90, and 95 percent of men of a certain generation.

    Of course this study would be hugely expensive, but it’s safe to say that the study will be worth the money – assuming rigorous statistical standards by a very well-respected social research group (The Pew Center, perhaps?)

  • Geoff 2

    @Josephine,

    Stay strong, stay virginal. There’s only one sure-fire way for a guy to know his potential wife’s sexual history is virginal–an intact hymen. You make one mistake, and any guy after that could assume you’re whored it up your entire life. You might convince him otherwise, you might not. Hope you find an amazing husband.

  • OffTheCuff

    Both men and women were fairly realistic about their sexual market value. If you came into college not knowing it, you learned quickly – because there was a system of going out on dates, getting turned down was a clear indicator you were aiming too high. Being pursued eagerly let you know that you could do better.

    @Sue, right, “were” realistic. Past tense. I think you missed the fun over Christmas break, where we witnessed today’s entitlement mentality run wild, with these howlers:

    What do you suggest a Plain Jane does to get an exceptionally handsome man to be interested in dating her with a view to a possible long-term relationship?

    any suggestions for an ordinary Plain Jane who craves a relationship with a Hot Joe who already has his choice of several women?

    “Why can’t I find a 9-10 looking guy today to fall in love with me?”

    “I’m not ugly but I’m “average” – 6, 7 when I glam up.”

    “can’t bring myself to be sexually attracted to them. I’ve tried dating and getting physical with 7′s and 6′s and I just can’t.”

    I don’t “write guys off based on their looks”

    All quotes from this thread.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Totally agree with Aldonza about the importance of psychological factors. Though I doubt if similarity to parents is the only factors, maybe not even the main one. Psychological complementarity can play an important role: for example, a Judgmental person (in the Myers-Briggs sense) may be very attracted to a Perceiving individual.

  • Geoff 2

    @filrabat

    That study you recommend to find out “how many sexual partners makes a girl a slut” would have to restrict responses to alpha males only. Girls don’t care what betas think.

    Not sure how you’d eliminate non-alpha male responses, since it’s not based on money nor looks. Maybe hooking up guys to lie detectors and asking if they’ve had more than 100 discrete hook-ups.

  • Josephine

    @filrabat – Also the study would be flawed in light of the fact that what people say is much different from what they do. It’s easy to say that “20” is a slutty number, but the same man who writes that is likely to date and perhaps respect a girl with a “20” if she’s attractive (especially if she is more attractive than he perceives himself to be) and shows sincerity and class.

  • Josephine

    @filrabat – For curiosity’s sake, I’d still like to see those numbers though.

  • Geoff 2

    @Josephine

    Had another post to you that won’t hit, so sorry if this is a duplicate.
    .
    Don’t be tempted into thinking men will consider 20 a low number for sluthood. Your virginity is worth gold. You slip one time and a guy might presume you’re a slut and lying to him (blame your slutty sisters for making men suspicious).
    .
    Stay strong, stay virginal. Your value will skyrocket in the next 4 years compared to your whorish compatriots. Men will want a virginal 7 MUCH more than a whorish 9 or 10 if he’s genuinely wanting to get married.

  • terre

    Josephine, forgive me but the mind boggles at a virginal woman defending slutdom. What exactly does it matter either way for you? You’re quite singularly gifted in a year like 2011; as Geoff said, don’t throw it away carelessly.

  • Mike C

    Newsflash, it’s the same for women. Even very attractive women. They can learn to send out signals saying “Don’t approach!” that all but the boldest men heed. And then when the bold men approach, they sometimes don’t believe them. It can take a lot for a women to become comfortable with her innate attractiveness to the opposite sex.
    .
    Not the same thing though. What you are saying is that very attractive women either passively-aggressively or actively reject options that present themselves. That isn’t the same as not having the options to begin with.

  • SayWhaat

    Yes, Mike C, but what Aldonza is saying is true. There are periods where very attractive women may simply have no options on the horizon. I think everyone can relate to a dry spell.

  • Mike C

    There are periods where very attractive women may simply have no options on the horizon.

    I don’t know. I’d bet a pretty huge sum that “very attractive women” ALWAYs have options. Just a question of whether the options are acceptable. I think what is more accurate, is that very attractive women may not always have options that meet their very demanding standards (perhaps rightfully so).

    An 8-10 guy will most likely consider a 6-7 for a short-term thing. An 8-10 woman probably won’t consider a 6-7 for anything at all.

  • AnonymousF

    <>

    Yes. Same goes for ugly women, though to a lesser extent obviously.

  • AnonymousF

    Oops, screwed up the format. Was agreeing with Mike C @856 and adding that ugly women nearly always have options too, though fewer and less appealing ones.

  • Pingback: Women Lack Neither Sex Nor Relationships: Case Closed « Omega Virgin Revolt

  • Josephine

    @terre – I defend “slutdom” because I dislike how people seek to quantify a person’s worth by some sort of numerical process. If I don’t like how someone’s worth is measured through IQ scores and SATs then I certainly won’t be happy that women are being tossed out like sour milk for how many notches they have on their belts. I don’t believe a person’s past should be that indelible (mistakes are the best teachers) and I certainly think these “sluts” have motives of all different types.
    .
    Also, though I appreciate the support, I think a few are overestimating the worth of being a virgin. It’s not that I am embarrassed about it, but I don’t really gain pride from it. I’m attractive, but I’m nerdy, studious, and don’t get out much. That (and the fact that I simply refuse to lose my virginity to someone I am not in some sort of exclusive relationship with) is why I am still a virgin. Not because I want to use my maidenhead as currency for a wedding ring. God forbid I want to enjoy my sex life too.
    .
    Is there really that much value (if any) placed on legit virginity? i thought men just appreciated a woman with less mileage, so to speak.

  • SayWhaat

    Is there really that much value (if any) placed on legit virginity? i thought men just appreciated a woman with less mileage, so to speak.

    I wonder about this as well. As much as men have a primal instinct to be the “first”, I think there is a greater worry about the virgin girl being a clingy emotional freak (“The other negative situation is when you think the girl could become a total clinger and get way too emotional when you have no emotional involvement.” ~ Mike C).

    Virgin-shaming doesn’t just come from sex-pozzies. Virgins are believed to be prudish or religious, otherwise why the hang-up? As a result many (college-aged, perhaps) guys don’t want to bother with being a girl’s first, because of the potential emotional mess. When really, for the girl, she just hasn’t had the chance yet, at least by her standards (such as being in an exclusive relationship).

    It’s the relationship-virgins that probably have the biggest obstacles to face. Not only do they have zero sexual experience, they have zero relationship experience that a potential guy would possibly look down on (You’ve never had a boyfriend? Seriously? Whoa. Uhh…by the way I’m not looking for anything serious right now).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat
      Your comment reminds me of the novels of Curtis Sittenfeld. Prep was a great book. In The Man of My Dreams the main character, a Tufts student, has trouble convincing anyone to “deflower” her. Her virginity becomes a millstone around her neck.

  • Matt T

    If a woman likes a guy, hell can’t stop her from trying to keep him, so she will cook and clean and whatever if she thinks that will help. If she doesn’t like a guy, she will make any rationalization to avoid him. Smart men realize that most of what women say revolves around rationalizing their emotions.*

    Most of what men do revolves around rationalizing their emotions too, but that’s not the point.

  • Florence

    @ Geoff, Terre, Mike C, and other male commentators,

    I am not an advocate of women with very high numbers for reasons very different than those shared by men, but I am also strongly opposed for demanding “virginity” from women. It is time to stop the stigma associated with not being a virgin and focus on other traits, which are the better determinants of a great LTR partner/wife.

    Virginity itself is not the single most important indicator of whether a woman would make a good LTR partner/wife, but yet men tend to put so much importance on it. In reality, compatible personalities, similar goals and interests, intelligence, education, hobbies, and loyalty are far more important determinants for a successful and a happy marriage. Research shows that maternal but not paternal education, is the single most important determinant associated with improved survival of offspring in developing countries.

    Men would argue that being a “virgin” is perhaps an indicator for being loyal in the long term. I think that having a history of BEING faithful to a previous partner is a MUCH better indicator of the future loyalty of a woman. In addition, what guarantee does a man have that once his virgin wife loses her virginity to him, she won’t turn into a total slut and even divorce him under the excuse “I feel that I married too young. I would have liked to experience life and other people a bit more before settling down.”

    On the other hand, we as women have no guarantee that rewarding a man with our virginity would necessarily cause him to be a committed husband or to appreciate us more. Sorry guys, but you are also human and imperfect…

    Finally, putting such a high demand on women to remain virgins, when men themselves have many flaws, is only resulting in even more dishonesty in relationships – you won’t believe how many former ‘sluts’ are married to good guys with low numbers, who think that their wifes were either virgins or had a very low number. I feel pity for these dudes, but can also understand why those women lied.

  • Florence

    @Sayywhat

    “You’ve never had a boyfriend? Seriously? Whoa. Uhh…by the way I’m not looking for anything serious right now”.

    Precisely because of getting this response from guys from the age of 15-21, I remained a virgin. My standards were to be in a serious relationship and reward the guy with my virginity. Nobody seemed to wanted it and were even scared away by the idea. Therefore, at the age of 21, when I had my fist experience, I never disclosed to the guy that I was a virgin. To this day, he doesn’t know it and I never bothered telling him because I figured he’d think I am crazy! We were together for only 8 months unfortunately, but I must agree, I was an emotional mess back then because of regret, personal disappointment of not living up to my standards, etc..

  • Florence

    “I do think, however, that a woman should avoid “what the hell” sex. It can have no benefit, and can contribute to a woman’s feeling cynical and jaded about sex.”
    – I agree 100%.

    So my strategy to keep my numbers low was to give only sleep or lose my virginity to what I considered 100%. At the time, that meant getting into a serious relationship with an alpha. As I mentioned in my previous post, all the alphas I encountered did not want anything serious. I had tons of betas lining up behind me, but in high school and college these betas came of as even MORE childish, immature, inexperienced and at times even annoying compared to the alphas! That gave me no intensive to believe that getting with a beta won’t disappoint me just as much as getting with an alpha. Of the two evils, I always chose the alphas because they were at least funny, outgoing, had Game and I made me believe or hope that if I played my cards right, I could get them hooked! But as Susan has said before, “the player always wins, because he always walks.”

  • Mike C

    Of the two evils, I always chose the alphas because they were at least funny, outgoing, had Game and I made me believe or hope that if I played my cards right, I could get them hooked! But as Susan has said before, “the player always wins, because he always walks.”
    .
    Of the two evils? Sounds like a bit of negative attitude/viewpoint to even the idea of relationships with men.

  • Mike C

    Honestly, in the current sexual marketplace, it’s extremely easy for a woman to get a “high number.”
    .
    For sure. To put a twist on Nancy Reagan’s motto “Just DON”T say no”. Unless you are a 4 or below, there will be an abundance of guys willing and able.

  • Mike C

    It’s a real dilemma that successful marriages tend to be between older individuals, but that fertility is significantly compromised by the late 20s.

    Late 20s? I always thought it was more like mid 30s for a women, and that for the most part fertility was still high with little chance of problems into the early 30s. If that is true, then young women really don’t have much time to waste figuring out what they really want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      I’ve recently read that the first serious fertility dropoff for women occurs at age 27. I’ll have to look around for the link. Truth is, by mid-30s, women are dealing with the weakest/most fragile of their eggs. This is why birth defects are so common in middle age.

  • Mike C

    I’m suspicious of the motives of the authors of Sex at Dawn. They have an open marriage, and believe that polyamory is natural.
    .
    Have not read the book, but a commenter on another blog had a total takedown of it. It appears to be a polemic based on pseudoscience.

  • SayWhaat

    Interesting food for thought from OKCupid:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-mathematics-of-beauty/

  • Mike C

    We can live without sex quite easily, most of us.
    .
    Susan, not trying to play “Gotcha” but this statement seems to contradict this one:
    .
    Why walk around Paris when we have this big comfy featherbed? I recall being completely sexually frustrated on that trip. It was definitely the beginning of the end.
    .
    I’m assuming there is some subtle distinction I’m missing here. Some of the other female commenters seemed to indicate that sex, “sexual compatibility” is quite important and in fact a potential dealbreaker.

    I’m really trying to get a better sense of just how important sex is to women. Is age a factor? There is a stereotype that women in their 30s have much more powerful sex drives then women in the early 20s. I’ve started to hear some stuff that indicates otherwise, and some of the commenters seem to corroborate that.
    .
    Can you expand/clarify on this?

  • Mike C

    Every woman is different, and I can recall being extremely turned off in my youth by men who thought they knew it all. When in fact what they knew was what pleased their most recent sexual partner.
    .
    “What is that weird thing you are doing with your tongue?” “Softer! Softer!”

    .
    One of the things that seems to vary signficantly from woman to woman is the method and pressure of clitoral stimulation. Something for the women. If the guy stumbles on exactly what you like, make sure you give some indication he has got it right.

  • Florence

    @ Susan
    “I was shocked and devastated that he didn’t desire sex every day. Multiple times per day! Why walk around Paris when we have this big comfy featherbed? I recall being completely sexually frustrated on that trip. It was definitely the beginning of the end.”

    Thanks for sharing that! It is fascinating how a difference in sex drive levels can lead to frustration that can be detrimental. I wonder if guys who are dating women with much higher sex drives than them ever feel too pressured for it, tired of it, and eventually lose interest in it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I wonder if guys who are dating women with much higher sex drives than them ever feel too pressured for it, tired of it, and eventually lose interest in it.

      Interesting that you should wonder that. Almost immediately, my bf developed a PE issue. I think it was just a manifestation of our incompatibility, but he was anxious to reassure me that it was only that I was so desirable. Since that made no sense, I was quite impatient. After about a year of this, I bailed.

  • Mike C

    @ Florence

    @ Geoff, Terre, Mike C, and other male commentators,
    I am not an advocate of women with very high numbers for reasons very different than those shared by men, but I am also strongly opposed for demanding “virginity” from women. It is time to stop the stigma associated with not being a virgin and focus on other traits, which are the better determinants of a great LTR partner/wife.

    .
    For the record, I am not advocating “demanding” virginity from women. Like I said, I actually think I am pretty moderate. I neither would expect nor care if a women was a virgin. For whatever reason, we continue to migrate to the polar extremes, either virgins or 22-24 year olds who have racked up 30, 40, 50+ partners. To be clear, I don’t think a 24 year who has fucked 40 different guys is a bad person, but in my view it most certainly represents someone with a litany of undesirable personality characteristics such as low impulse control.

  • Florence

    I keep hearing about a common fear many guys have about sex decreasing substantially after marriage with the wife being less and less willing. As a woman of a reasonably high sex drive in mid twenties, I find that so hard to believe. It contradicts the findings that women having a peak sexual drive at a later age (30), which I also have a hard time believing.

  • ExNewYorker

    @SayWhaat
    I think there is a greater worry about the virgin girl being a clingy emotional freak
    .
    This will be the worry for guys who aren’t looking for an LTR (a good chunk of the college-aged crowd, as you mention). For a guy looking for a LTR (such as marriage), it’s not as big a deal. It’s actually a possible positive sign (an indication of future-time orientation). And as for the “relationship-virgins”, again, that’s an issue for the guys who aren’t looking for something long term. For us commitment-minded guys, it’s actually not a deal breaker at all, depending on the circumstances. This day and age, it’s actually a sign that the woman has enough self-esteem to not want to be a plaything for the cads…

  • Kurt

    @Florence, I suspect that a lot of the women who do want to have sex less after marriage feel this way because they married someone to whom they aren’t very attracted. The fear among men is that some women might be getting married because they think that their biological clocks are running out or feel some other type of pressure to get married, so they marry a guy who doesn’t really do it for them. Then, after locking the guy up with marriage and maybe having a kid or two, they no longer feel obligated to fulfill their husband’s sexual needs. There probably is a great deal of truth behind this fear.

  • 108spirits

    Women who have had a lot of relationships typically learn nothing from them anyway, as they always blame everything on the man.

    The ones who do learn useful things from their past relationships tend to have very few before getting married.

  • ExNewYorker

    It’s funny seeing all the “criticism” whenever guys take a woman’s past history into consideration when making the big decision that marriage is these days. If a hiring manager at some company looks at a person’s resume, sees that their longest job stint has been 9 months (in 8 companies), sees that they changed major every 1.5 years before graduating after 6 years, and makes the call that this person is probably not a good long term investment for the company, nobody would blink an eye. Heck, if the hiring manager didn’t take those things into account, eventually such a person would likely get fired as the nth person they hired ran off, leaving the critical project in a lurch.
    .
    But when a guy wants to do the same type of judging, based on past evidence, my goodness how many women get the vapors all of a sudden. And any guy out there knows that firing a bad employee (even one in a union), is easier than firing your wife…
    .
    @Florence
    Men would argue that being a “virgin” is perhaps an indicator for being loyal in the long term. I think that having a history of BEING faithful to a previous partner is a MUCH better indicator of the future loyalty of a woman.
    .
    And if she’s so faithful to all those previous partners, then why isn’t she still with them? And if she happened to have the bad judgment to choose partners so poorly, why wouldn’t she be likely to have bad judgment in other areas in the future?
    .
    Past is prologue!

  • Florence

    @ ExNewYorker

    And if she’s so faithful to all those previous partners, then why isn’t she still with them? And if she happened to have the bad judgment to choose partners so poorly, why wouldn’t she be likely to have bad judgment in other areas in the future?

    – this logic is correct for women with very high numbers. I agree that making the same mistake again and again says something about someone’s intelligence.

    -Virgins on the other hand have never even dared to take the risk of making a mistake. They have no experience and that does not guarantee that marrying a virgin would result in a successful marriage. Just like hiring an employee with zero experience on their resume.

    All I am advocating is that you should give women with some reasonable number a break by not valuing her any less than a virgin. Although, I’ve tried to abstain from making a statement I will. Personally, I think that a number below 10 by 35 is a reasonable number.

  • Florence

    @Kurt
    That is a very interesting point of view, which I have thought about myself. The women you describe either married for stability or because their biological clock was ticking. The rest of us, college girls, are trying to educate ourselves and get jobs in order to remove the “stability” issue. The biological clock issue unfortunately cannot be solved easily. Therefore, it is important for a woman to have back-up options.

  • AnonymousF

    @Susan

    Yes, I am in my late 20’s and my fiancee is a few years older. Thanks for the well wishes. You may also find the following two articles interesting. They ring true to my experience and that of many of my friends. Maybe not exactly in every detail, but broadly.

    Explaining how the dating scene and its appeal changes at a certain point, especially when all one’s friends are paired off. I saw this happen much earlier among professionals in the South and Midwest than the big Northeast cities: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/3088165/ns/today-today_hidden/

    Describing the ongoing increase in “assortative mating” by education and income: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magazine/19wwln_idealab.html?_r=1

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @AnonF
    The msnbc article on why marry some women and not others is a goldmine! It contains some great insights from a social scientist (rather than a dating expert).

  • Mike C

    The msnbc article on why marry some women and not others is a goldmine!
    .
    Interesting article. Appears to validate everything I’ve been saying about a man’s age and propensity to commit.

  • AnonymousF

    @Mike C

    “Well….as I’ve said a number of times, if that is really what they want, a committed loyal monogamous relationships with a partner who is truly emotionally invested, they don’t have to wait long at all if they identify the right target market. Same-age male peers it probably isn’t going to be.”

    The problem with advising younger women to pursue older men is that, at least in my circles, the men who are at “commitment age” aren’t interested in dating 18-23 year olds, except occasionally graduate students dating undergrads which is more likely to be for hookup purposes than commitment. Some of the guys would be embarassed to date college students and there would be some social flack, but I think the main reason it just doesn’t “work out” that way is because people tend to be comfortable with and enjoy talking to people they have things in common with and who will smoothly fit in with the other couples among their friends and coworkers. From what I’ve seen, similar levels of accomplishment make a relationship more likely to develop, and that means similar ages usually.

    Also, though most men don’t expect to get married until late 20’s or early 30’s, there are many men who are happy to commit to meaningful LTR’s in college. I’ve dated such guys myself, and most of my friends have at least one such ex. Most of the LTR’s don’t last because college students change a lot and don’t know what they want yet, but it’s common that they’re embarked on in touchingly naive good faith on both sides rather than purely as a means to sex. Many do last and turn into marriages, though it can take 5-10 years of monogamous “dating” which is sort of odd, even to someone like me who sees it frequently.

  • Geoff 2

    Before I’m flamed, understand I’m a former a-hole, and I’m panicked over American society devolving into what I contributed to. Plus I have a niece whose face I see every time Josephine, Florence, or SayWhaat post something and I want to help. Flame on…

    @Josephine, Ask how many women lost their virginity under less than ideal circumstances and then ask how many would go back in a time machine to where you are. Is it FAIR that men want a virgin for marriage? Totally fucking irrelevant. I can smell the friction of your hamster wheel spinning furiously to justify getting some action. You have something of extraordinarily high value and you’re already thinking of how to give it away. You are an ideal woman to a multitude of men age 28-35 looking to marry, yet you’re going to cool your heels on a 21 year old guy’s college dorm bed and you’ll worry about regrets later. Feminists have ruined this fucking country.

    @Florence, SayWhaat and all other women who have more notches on your bedpost than you wish you did. OK, we get it–it’s totally unfair that feminist society lied to you about what men really want in a marriage. But recognize that the first rule of getting out of a hole is to STOP DIGGING (stop giving away the punani).
    .
    You ladies spouting crazy rationalizations about how men don’t REALLY want virgins is embarrassing. The reason men don’t want to DATE virgins in college is because (man, how many times do I have to repeat this) they ONLY CARE ABOUT GETTING LAID. Having sex with “just a few guys” will NOT make you more marriageable but it WILL make you more DATEable in college–if by dating you mean sexually available. Guys don’t avoid a virgin in college because she doesn’t have enough relationship experience–they just want the easy lay. Why this is impossible to believe floors me. Roissy’s right, the world is doomed.

  • SayWhaat

    @Florence, SayWhaat and all other women who have more notches on your bedpost than you wish you did.

    LOL. LOLOLOLOLOL.

    Geoff, I don’t know what impression you got from my comments on these threads, but I’m a virgin. And not in the “hamster rationalization” way either. Truth.

    You ladies spouting crazy rationalizations about how men don’t REALLY want virgins is embarrassing.

    No, we get it. Men don’t want virgins during a certain period of their life. This was made evident to my during my freshmen year when this guy I was interested in said “I’m not interested in teaching a girl everything” straight to my face.

    having sex with “just a few guys” will NOT make you more marriageable but it WILL make you more DATEable in college

    No, being sexually active does not make one more marriageable. The point we are trying to make is that being a virgin is an initial obstacle to becoming dateable, and being dateable is what leads to eventually becoming marriageable.

    There is no point in being marriageable if you don’t have an available route to get there in the first place.

  • SayWhaat

    Ask how many women lost their virginity under less than ideal circumstances and then ask how many would go back in a time machine to where you are.

    Sure. There are also women who have lost their virginity in ideal circumstances (such as being in an exclusive, boyfriend-girlfriend relationship) and they don’t appear to have many regrets, either.

    You are an ideal woman to a multitude of men age 28-35 looking to marry, yet you’re going to cool your heels on a 21 year old guy’s college dorm bed and you’ll worry about regrets later.

    Personally, my main worry is being a relationship-virgin. I’m not comfortable with the idea of marrying the first guy I’m in a relationship with, mostly because I doubt my ability to get it completely right on the first go. Not to mention, ANY relationship, even with a marriage-oriented guy, will come with an expectation of sex. Very few men, even those who want to get married, will comply with abstinence-until-marriage.

    .

    That’s not to say that I’m opposed to marrying the first guy I’m in a relationship with. If everything appears to work out and be in order, why not? I’ll consider myself very lucky. But even if I date someone who is marriage-inclined, we will most likely end up having sex before marriage anyway. And if it turns out we’re incompatible on some fundamental aspect (that may not necessarily have to do with sex), then we’d have to break up and see other people, which would leave me as a dateable, marriageable women with a (very) low count.

    .

    Just an observation: men who place a premium on virginity appear to be extremely conservative and/or religious. I have no wish to marry someone who is either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      “These days, the smart thing to do is get through college and start a career, and marry later than your mom and I did. It’s unrealistic to wait until marriage, and I don’t expect you to. Sex is a natural consequence of a loving relationship. In fact, I’d question any relationship that did not eventually lead to sex. Just be sure you have sex with a guy who would make a good father.“

      I’m just getting caught up on comments, and couldn’t let this one pass. This is great advice, IMO. Since the average woman spends fifteen years between puberty and marriage, a strategy like this is realistic and sensible.

  • SayWhaat

    One last thing.

    I read this in a comment on reddit. I think it’s pretty solid advice.

    “When I was a teen, my dad would always walk out of the room whenever the conversation turned to sex. My mom would fill me with accurate, factual information, but she’d always conclude with “no sex until marriage.” One day, as my dad was about to bolt, I said, “Stop! I want to hear YOUR opinion about this no-sex-until-marriage thing!”
    My dad told me something I have never forgotten, and which I have since shared with my own girls. He said, “These days, the smart thing to do is get through college and start a career, and marry later than your mom and I did. It’s unrealistic to wait until marriage, and I don’t expect you to. Sex is a natural consequence of a loving relationship. In fact, I’d question any relationship that did not eventually lead to sex. Just be sure you have sex with a guy who would make a good father.

  • Rhen

    There are plenty of things that matter in a woman other than her “number,” the way the “notches” were gotten matters at least as much as the total count. Seems to me a girl who has slept with 7 guys, most of which were drunken one-night-stands, is a very different proposition from a girl who has slept with 7 guys, 3 of which were love relationships, 2 sustained dating but not quite love, and 2 short term affairs–and who was reasonably sober the first time with all of them.

    Of course, a man can’t really know the context of all her past relationships, but he CAN know if she is a heavy drinker with poor impulse control, totally apart from sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rhen

      Of course, a man can’t really know the context of all her past relationships, but he CAN know if she is a heavy drinker with poor impulse control, totally apart from sex.

      Actually, you raise a potential solution to all of this bickering about the number. A number without context is meaningless. A number of 1 might reflect true love, a random hookup, or even sex with a family member! What is important is the question of character. Men attach significance to the number because of what it implies about a woman’s essential nature, and what that means for future behavior.
      .
      Poor impulse control is really the issue. Does one have enough self-discipline and future time orientation to forego short-term gratification? Sexual loyalty is the most important thing to men seeking a mate – it tops a list of 75 female qualities in studies. Still, most men would also be interested to know about alcohol use, as you suggest, drug use, spending habits, risk-seeking behaviors, etc.
      .
      Auditioning and rejecting all but one person is the way it is supposed to work. It strikes me as ludicrous that anyone would claim “Foul!” when that’s all that is really happening here. Each one of us reserves the right to say “No thanks.”

      @Hollenhund
      I think it’s just common sense that sluthood isn’t defined by notch count. There needs to be something that is responsible for that in the first place.

      This ties into Rhen’s comment nicely. I agree 100%.

  • Aldonza

    @Florence

    I keep hearing about a common fear many guys have about sex decreasing substantially after marriage with the wife being less and less willing. As a woman of a reasonably high sex drive in mid twenties, I find that so hard to believe. It contradicts the findings that women having a peak sexual drive at a later age (30), which I also have a hard time believing.

    .
    There are a lot of reasons sex drives go up and down. Hormones associated with pregnancy and nursing, exhaustion, weight gain, and troubled relationships will all decimate a normal, healthy libido in a woman.

  • Höllenhund

    Hollenhund, sometimes you surprise me. I’ve got you about 95% figured out, but once in a while you throw a curve ball

    Hmm, I doubt I contradicted any of my earlier statements. I think it’s just common sense that sluthood isn’t defined by notch count. There needs to be something that is responsible for that in the first place. Consider cads. How do you define them? Would it make sense to debate whether a guy is a cad if he had 10 pumps & dumps? Or 15? Or 20? No. He is a cad if he has a caddish mentality that drives him towards pumps & dumps.

  • Florence

    @ Geoff,
    “Is it FAIR that men want a virgin for marriage? Totally fucking irrelevant.”
    – So you admit that it is unfair?

    Supporting things that are clearly unfair is against my moral standards.

    We’re not staying virgins till 30. This is just too much to ask. We also want to experience life while we’re young. We also get TIRED of being single! It really frustrates me and I will not live my life in a certain way JUST to please hypocritical, selfish people like you even if that is 90% of men.

    I grew up in a family with a father who would call my mom “second hand” in public just because she wasn’t virgin when they married. Do you think that this was easy to swallow?

    Call me a feminist, call me a fool, but I will not STAND UP for this kind of treatment.

    Up to now, no man has ever asked me for my number, unless I ask them for their number. A real man cares more about other things rather than how many stupid insignificant screw-ups I’ve had while in college, which don’t even mean anything to me. I can assure you that the one I marry will mean the world to me, I will be faithful to him and do my best to make him happy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence
      I grew up in a family with a father who would call my mom “second hand” in public just because she wasn’t virgin when they married. Do you think that this was easy to swallow?
      .
      That is truly terrible, and it’s no wonder you feel the way you do. I understand exactly what you are saying. However, it is important to understand that selecting a mate isn’t about fairness. Your father had every right to reject your mother for not being a virgin. That would have been fair. What was not fair was deciding to marry her and then complaining about it afterwards.
      .
      I do not doubt your sincerity in intending to be faithful and loving to your future husband. I do believe that only a small fraction of men insist on a virgin for marriage, and nearly all of them will be very religious. Your number is your business, to share with whomever you choose. But if a man doesn’t accept it, that is his right, and he is not deficient in some way. This is perhaps the most pernicious lie of feminism – that women can have sex with impunity.

  • Höllenhund

    There are a lot of reasons sex drives go up and down. Hormones associated with pregnancy and nursing, exhaustion, weight gain, and troubled relationships will all decimate a normal, healthy libido in a woman.

    I’d add parental duties, especially during the early years. By all accounts they substantially decrease opportunities for marital sex, due to the intensive care young children demand if for no other reason. I’ve heard many married men state that “sex as we knew it pretty much ended after childbirth”.

  • Wayfinder

    The problem with the question is that a guy dating you and a man marrying you are looking for different things: like many commenters have said, the guys who won’t date virgins are looking for sex, not a relationship. The problem both sexes are having is that dating as it remains today has relatively little to do with marriagability. Boyfriend isn’t really related to husband, if it ever was.

    The religious-virgins are obviously trying to look for each other, but I don’t think that you can dismiss virginity as an exclusively religious value. At a minimum, a girl with a higher notch count than the guy is probably across the line, and given the 80%, there are going to be a lot of good (even hot) guys with a count of 1 or 2. I don’t have much sympathy for girls who argue that waiting is hard: the guys have often been waiting longer with far lower counts.

    If a guy reaches his commitment phase and discovers that you’ve been sleeping around while he’s been suffering and working, the potential issues are enormous. You might still trigger his attachment, but I’d guess the odds to be closer to a random hookup than our dead traditional dating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wayfinder

      I don’t have much sympathy for girls who argue that waiting is hard: the guys have often been waiting longer with far lower counts.

      I hear you, but in truth, the circumstances are often quite different. A man consigned to involuntary celibacy is not in quite the same boat as a woman who is being pursued by men she finds attractive. The woman will regularly face temptation. I do not mean to minimize the pain of celibacy for men. But a woman who is in a relationship or in love will have both opportunity and motive for having sex.

  • Höllenhund

    @ hollenhund “promiscuous men = alphas = the top of the male hierarchy = simply put: the men who stand out from the male crowd. Their female counterparts are NOT the sluts.”

    Oh no! There are plenty of non-alpha men would engage in promiscuous sex. I used to work with street people and you’d be blown away by how much action those guys get! Kind of like muscled guy with no teeth banging obese schizophrenic gal tonight, then on to skinny heroin addict girl with one eye the next night.

    Than he’s an alpha. I was referring to male hierarchy as defined by women’s attractiveness, not social stratification, although there’s obviously a big overlap.

  • Aldonza

    @Mike C
    Not the same thing though. What you are saying is that very attractive women either passively-aggressively or actively reject options that present themselves. That isn’t the same as not having the options to begin with.
    .
    No. It’s not a conscious thing. It’s an innate, ingrained and automatic response. Some of us were raised not to look men in the eyes. To avert our eyes. To dress very modestly. Shyness + conservatve upbringing + just plain fear of the opposite sex. If it were actively rejecting, then we might choose not to reject bad options, but we would still choose to accept good options. That isn’t what I’m talking about. More than one man has told me that I have a very hostile vibe. I was completely unaware of this. Apparently my normal, anxious mode of dealing with men, *even those I found attractive*, or perhaps especially those I found attractive included tons of IODs (Indicators of Disinterest.) It would’ve taken an extremely confident and skilled PUA to know to go past that, and frankly, I never really hung out anywhere PUAs frequented.

  • Höllenhund

    I’m not sure about this. The 9s and 10s I know (and have therefore seen) are reluctant to compromise – they want it all, because they understand how good looking they are. They want the alpha to commit, like he would have in the old days. And they are definitely not slutty. I don’t doubt that there are plenty of gorgeous promiscuous women – but there is a definite group of very pretty women who are still hard to get. They are the female counterparts, but they have essentially priced themselves out of the market, at least in college.

    What I meant was that 9s are 10s are the top of the female hierarchy, as defined by their attractiveness (i.e. they are the most desired women, just like alphas are the most desired men).

  • Florence

    When I say that we get tired of being “single”, I mean that it is very difficult to stay single and happy and even not feeling like a loser, when all your other girlfriends have boyfriends who pamper them in so many different ways, take them on holiday trips, family dinners etc. In addition, going to party where everyone has a date and you don’t also sucks.

    I’ve tried telling guys that I want to wait until marriage, but when I tell them that marriage will not occur in the next 5 years, nobody is willing to wait. Please be understanding of that. They are willing to wait a few months, but when it comes to years they bail out. So it is either giving them some or staying single until marriage time.

  • Anni

    I know this is offtopic from the general discussion, so sorry, but I just want to point something out.
    .
    @Mike C
    “It is hard to generalize to a specific example. I don’t know why he married her. Could be a combination of factors, possibly a little of each of the things you’ve mentioned. Maybe he does indeed think he can’t do much better. Maybe he does genuinely love her despite her negatives such as the cheating.”
    .
    When a man marries a woman, it must be love. And if she divorces him later then she’s an evil evil bitch. However, when a woman has sex with a man and gets used by him then it is because of her hypergamy, sluttiness, female inability to resist cads, you name it, anything but love. I’m not saying women only have sex with men because of love, but this option does not seem to occur to a lot of people here. I’m not saying the women who get hurt have made smart choices with regard to sex, but if a woman has sex with a man in good faith and he totally f***s her over, then surely he is the one who has committed a moral wrong.

  • Josephine

    @Florence – I don’t know all the details of your personal situation, but I would probably recommend holding off on sex until you feel less like you’re doing it because you feel the need to “giv[e] them some” and more like you really want to increase your closeness to someone, someone awesome and who takes you seriously (none of this “I’m not interested in teaching a girl everything” that douche told SayWHaat). But you probably already know that, considering the respect you seem to have for your body and your desire to marry someday.
    .
    My issue is that I don’t know if I will want to marry, personally. It’s not a goal for me, not right now. So waiting till I’m married is pretty much off the table. It’s not that I don’t respect marriage as an institution…it’s just I’m not sure what I want (complete independence? a supportive man and 2.5 children? a live-in harem? who knows) and what my career(s) will demand of me.

  • Josephine

    @Florence – If I may ask, how old are you? I don’t need an exact age…I’m just curious for a range. And are you in college/grad school?

  • Badger Nation

    “Most of the LTR’s don’t last because college students change a lot and don’t know what they want yet, but it’s common that they’re embarked on in touchingly naive good faith on both sides rather than purely as a means to sex. ”
    .
    Wow, thanks for putting it this way. I recall my college days and understand the “naive good faith,” and my good fortune in dating women of similar constitution. We didn’t work out, but we weren’t using each other. Even though I wasn’t nearly as good with women as I am now, there’s something I really miss about NOT presuming base, cynical motivations in the dating world. C’est la vie.

  • Lurky Lu

    @Susan “There are some gorgeous beta guys around – they get lots of attention from women, but they are earnest, good men who just don’t have it in them to be players. This is the origin for the hope of landing a handsome, good guy – they do exist. Men like this won’t satisfy a woman with a strong urge to be dominated, however. I’ve seen these guys do extremely well initially in high school and college, only to flame out by being too predictable, too devoted a boyfriend, etc.”

    Exactly. This is why I object so strongly whenever the women-only-want-the-top-20%alpha-guy canard gets repeated. I would even contend that there are a lot of women who are holding out not for the alpha but the “right kind of beta”, the good guy who’s easy on the eyes and isn’t a supplicating lapdog. But because there’s a slutty minority of women having frequent casual sex with a minority of men, then any woman who says no to a guy who’s not an alpha is suspected of being some kind of slutty alpha-seeker — when it’s more likely that she’s not getting it on with anyone, but rather holding out for someone “compatible”.

    SayWhaat’s OKCupid link shows that people aren’t so much after the “best” looking, but person with the **right look for them**, whether that’s a guy who likes “edgy” looking girls, or the girl who likes the bookish professor look (like I do!). I think that a lot of the people who wind up single are the ones who have a narrow love map with very specific tastes. Perhaps social media is giving us the illusion that we can have a made-to-order mate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lurky Lu

      I would even contend that there are a lot of women who are holding out not for the alpha but the “right kind of beta”, the good guy who’s easy on the eyes and isn’t a supplicating lapdog. But because there’s a slutty minority of women having frequent casual sex with a minority of men, then any woman who says no to a guy who’s not an alpha is suspected of being some kind of slutty alpha-seeker — when it’s more likely that she’s not getting it on with anyone, but rather holding out for someone “compatible”.

      We are totally on the same page here. I would go so far as to say I know this for a fact. As a 54 year old woman, I can say that many of the women I know and have known would prefer this man. Of course, the guys will just say you want an alpha in beta clothing. I personally have never felt the need to be strongly dominated by an alpha male. My first bf in college was a quintessential alpha and we dated for three years. I found him dumb and boring. Why did I date him for three years? Social dominance, no question. Since then, I’ve studiously avoided guys like him. I fell for my husband at first sight – a tall, skinny guy with longish hair who I thought looked like a poet. He wasn’t a poet, but he is a sensitive type, and he is smart and interesting.
      .
      I like the phrase “narrow love map with very specific tastes.” It’s a nice way of describing people with long and ridiculous checklists. It’s like saying your mate must come from Rhode Island, rather than the continental U.S.

  • Mike C

    I’ve tried telling guys that I want to wait until marriage, but when I tell them that marriage will not occur in the next 5 years, nobody is willing to wait. Please be understanding of that.
    .
    Sorry if I am off-base, but I got the distinct impression from some of your past comments that you were NOT a virgin. If I’m wrong, sorry, but I did want to make this point. One thing I can say with about 99.9% certainty about just about all guys is they are going to accept “second virginity” or “reformed sluts” knowingly (those 2 are different, I’m NOT equating them). But if you are NOT a virgin, no guy is going to wait until marriage for something you’ve provided previously without marriage. Similarly, if you’ve been with 40 guys, many on the same night or date 2 or 3, he isn’t going to wait months. Of course, this assumes he either knows of or has a clue about your past sexual history.

  • NGII

    When I say that we get tired of being “single”, I mean that it is very difficult to stay single and happy and even not feeling like a loser, when all your other girlfriends have boyfriends who pamper them in so many different ways, take them on holiday trips, family dinners etc. In addition, going to party where everyone has a date and you don’t also sucks.
    .
    @Florence
    .
    You know what, that’s the same for guys that don’t want anything short of a LTR – people are wondering why you’re not dating, while you feel so frustrated not being able to have road trips, social functions with friends etc without being the third wheel.
    .
    This doesn’t only happen to virginal girls exclusively. Sometimes the problem lies to the a simple fact that people have it harder when they are out of the mainstream, more than gender differences.

  • Badger Nation

    “being a virgin is an initial obstacle to becoming dateable, and being dateable is what leads to eventually becoming marriageable.”
    .
    “The problem both sexes are having is that dating as it remains today has relatively little to do with marriagability. Boyfriend isn’t really related to husband, if it ever was.”
    .
    The bells rings with Athol Kay’s discussion on how to choose a wife:
    .

    The basic problem is that most men do not go looking for a wife. They start looking for a date, and then try and turn the date into more dates, then the dates into a girlfriend, then a girlfriend into a relationship, and then and only then worry about whether or not to bridge the relationship into marriage. Of course by then you may be realizing you’ve been backing the wrong horse as what was great for a few dates (that would be tits, ass and easy pussy) isn’t the best or only thing for a lifetime together.

    .
    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/03/10-critical-things-in-how-to-choose.html
    .
    “Beginning with the end in mind” is one of the seven habits. A good friend of mine in graduate school was looking for a wife. He wanted to be engaged before he graduated. He probably went on dates with 50 women in three years. He was very marriageable, had great beta traits and enough alpha when he needed it and wanted to be leader of a family. He dated one woman he considered going long with, she was a bit neurotic and mirrored his tendencies which woke him up to how mechanical and OCD he had been about the whole thing; he softened up a bit, but still wanted the dream and kept looking. The next serious girlfriend he had is now his wife.
    .
    I DON’T recommend this for college students. You just have no idea what you *actually* want in life at that age. I sure as hell didn’t, even though I was certain at the time I did. Not to mention it’s harder to see people for who they really are.

  • SayWhaat

    @ NGII

    You know what, that’s the same for guys that don’t want anything short of a LTR – people are wondering why you’re not dating, while you feel so frustrated not being able to have road trips, social functions with friends etc without being the third wheel.

    Sometimes I get really jaded and cynical from my own personal experience, and reading the comments from some of the men here. But statements like these, NGII, are what give me hope that there are still great guys out there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Sometimes I get really jaded and cynical from my own personal experience, and reading the comments from some of the men here. But statements like these, NGII, are what give me hope that there are still great guys out there

      Keep in mind that discussion here is totally frank and almost no-holds barred. We all share our more jaded and cynical views, as well as our hopes on occasion. Personally, I view the discussion, even when it is contentious, as a huge leap forward. In my experience, it’s rare for men and women to discuss these issues at all. Perhaps we tend to vent our frustrations here too frequently, but it’s a start, from my POV.

  • Mike C

    I’m not saying the women who get hurt have made smart choices with regard to sex, but if a woman has sex with a man in good faith and he totally f***s her over, then surely he is the one who has committed a moral wrong.
    .
    Absofrickinlutely!!! If you make it clear you aren’t interested in casual, indiscriminate sex and a guy knowingly plays you he is a total asshole.
    .
    When a man marries a woman, it must be love. And if she divorces him later then she’s an evil evil bitch.
    .
    I don’t think that is how it goes. I think the “evil, evil bitch” part doesn’t come from divorce. I think it comes when she files for divorce and simultaneously tries to get 50% of the 401(k) and investments despite most of it being accumulated prior to the marriage, tries to get full custody with onerous visitation, uses the children as pawns, and tries to get the house, everything else nailed down, and tries to get child support amounts which are pseudo-alimony when she was the one putting on the heavy pressure for the marriage committment in the first place. Not sure how common those situations are, but common enough…too common, and where the “evil bitch” characterization comes from.
    .
    However, when a woman has sex with a man and gets used by him then it is because of her hypergamy, sluttiness, female inability to resist cads, you name it, anything but love. I’m not saying women only have sex with men because of love, but this option does not seem to occur to a lot of people here.
    .
    You are right, but some women truly do seem to bring heartache on themselves. If there is one thing I have a hard time feeling sorry for it is stupidity, especially an almost willful stupidity. I happened to click back on an old thread, and there was a woman posting who admitted she is a plain Jane, nothing special at all, yet absolutely has to have a 9-10 guy. To the degree she potentially gets used, manipulated, abused she really has brought it on herself.

  • Ted

    To the virgins who want to get some job experience: any of you near Florida? I swear I’m interested in marriage as soon as we make sure we’re sexually compatible.

  • Lavazza

    This was fun:

    “Men who look at marriage as a financial arrangement in which women have the most to gain are not likely to marry-nor are they good prospects. Run…fast.”

    The author does not say that these men have got it wrong.

  • Badger Nation

    Mike C,
    .
    “I don’t think that is how it goes. I think the “evil, evil bitch” part doesn’t come from divorce. I think it comes when she files for divorce and simultaneously tries to get 50% of the 401(k) and investments despite most of it being accumulated prior to the marriage, tries to get full custody with onerous visitation, uses the children as pawns, and tries to get the house, everything else nailed down, and tries to get child support amounts which are pseudo-alimony when she was the one putting on the heavy pressure for the marriage committment in the first place. Not sure how common those situations are, but common enough…too common, and where the “evil bitch” characterization comes from.”
    .
    I think this extends to the amorphous rage many women feel when a relationship ends, Susan and I discussed this on the previous thread:
    .
    SW: “Women will say they “want closure,” when what they really mean is that they won’t leave it alone until they are given a reason they find acceptable. Of course, there is no reason they will find acceptable.”
    .
    I know many young women whose dates/boyfriends have left them or stopped dating them. It’s nothing personal, they just don’t want to date the woman anymore whether it’s a second date or six months of LTR. They guys haven’t done anything morally wrong like cheating, they have done the right thing and formally checked out of the lodge.
    .
    But to hear these girls talk, they are the Hotel California – check out any time you like but you can never leave. These girls are wrapped up in distilled rage, filled with plans for revenge, trying to date a hotter guy to get back at him, trying to get “fabulous,” egging his car, plans for emotional blackmail, recording songs about it (I’m looking at you Taylor Swift), fill in ones you’ve heard yourself.
    .
    I’m not saying it doesn’t hurt. Hardcore. Been there myself. It’s OK to be disappointed, but unless a moral transgression has taken place, you don’t have any right to carry moral anger, and all you’re doing is screwing yourself by living your life for the ghost of a person who has made it clear he doesn’t care about you any more. The same freedom that got you dumped is the freedom that allows you to choose your own partner, so take the good with the bad.
    .
    I think it’s almost solely the hurt pride of being the one who was dumped, and that lots of young women are convinced they should be the ones “choosing” even though today’s commitment supply is scarce and on the male side. What’s totally F’d up about these girls is that if THEY were the ones doing the dumping, they wouldn’t think twice about whether it was right or wrong – but if word got back he had been talking revenge plots with his friends, they’d call him a stalker or worse.
    .
    I think this is one of the major casualties of the loss of the tradition dating structure (Susan FTW?) When people would go on real “dates” one could get accustomed to the idea of getting shot down, getting a “thanks but no thanks” after a couple of dates, and etc.
    .
    When a lot of kids’ introduction to the opposite sex is a drunken hookup, there are no ground rules and thus learning opportunities are tough to come by – everyone just proceeds with hormones and self-centeredness and nobody can do right in the other’s eyes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      But to hear these girls talk, they are the Hotel California – check out any time you like but you can never leave

      LOL, this cracked me up. Just perfect.

      It’s OK to be disappointed, but unless a moral transgression has taken place, you don’t have any right to carry moral anger, and all you’re doing is screwing yourself by living your life for the ghost of a person who has made it clear he doesn’t care about you any more.

      A friend of my daughter’s was over during break, and he went on a funny rant about girls getting “fucked over.” He was demanding to know what the hell this means. His point was the same as yours. “I don’t want to hook up with her any more. It was always no strings. Sorry, not sorry. How did I fuck anyone over?” I think he has a very valid point – one I’ve made myself. If you go along for the ride, you don’t get to bitch when it ends. No strings means he doesn’t even have to cut you loose, he just has to go silent. You are not owed any explanations. I think I will have to write a post on this.
      .
      You are right that this did not occur “back in the day.” A girl did not presume a commitment – nor did she ask for one. You might go on several dates with a guy and then watch him ask someone else to his formal. It sucked, but that was his prerogative. Similarly, a woman might go on several dates with a guy and then decide to focus on someone else or that she just wasn’t that interested. These outcomes were always considered unfortunate, but no one presumed to invoke moral outrage!

  • Badger Nation

    “Men who look at marriage as a financial arrangement in which women have the most to gain are not likely to marry-nor are they good prospects. Run…fast.”
    .
    I’m sorry but this is bullshit. The state does not care about your love. The state cares about your money, what they can do with it, and that children can be provided for from the family’s funds and not the treasury. Marriage IS finance.
    .
    Women are going to have to get used to the fact that more and more men are questioning marriage in general and whether it’s right for them specifically. Bad wives and family courts have caused this. If women’s response is to shame the men as “poor prospects” they are going to have to get good at finding multiple marriageable men to date.
    .
    I laugh my ass off when I hear women complain about prenups, that they “assume the marriage might fail.” Marrying in a country that allows divorce itself assumes the marriage “might fail.” The only true hedge against divorce is to not marry. I can turn their argument around real fast – women who scoff at prenups are telling men they think he should get into an arrangement when he can lose everything on her whim. Putting aside the issue of whether prenups are enforceable, the spiritual imperative is a red herring; women who object to prenups are just arguing for their own self-interest.
    .
    (See what I did there?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Putting aside the issue of whether prenups are enforceable, the spiritual imperative is a red herring; women who object to prenups are just arguing for their own self-interest.

      I’ve always thought that I would refuse to sign a prenup. I understand why a wealthy man would want one, but I figure you take your chances. If you don’t believe in me, let’s not get married. Of course, this strategy only makes sense if you are not hell bent on getting married. I do think, for me at least, entering a marriage with a prenup would put me on guard. It muddies the waters. Some women call this bluff successfully, e.g. Heather Mills. Others lose out. If you’re not after the money, being prepared to walk completely proves it.

  • Matt T

    As a guy, I don’t have a problem with women who aren’t virgins, but women who are more sexually experienced than I are a serious turn-off. I don’t know why it is (probably evolutionary reasons), but from what I gather, men don’t appreciate women who are more sexually experienced than them.

  • Geoff 2

    @Matt,

    Because sluts are unreliable as wives, given their inability to control their impulses and wait for marriage. The likelihood they’ll leave you for a better deal is almost absolute–and that’s if you’re lucky. If you’re very unlucky, she’ll cheat on you but stay married to you until eventually she’s ridden some alpha meat and made it count. Why is this the unlucky option? Mostly because the absolute worst thing a woman can do to a man is make him work for, live with, love, and spend his life savings to raise another man’s child.
    .
    See:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/female-rapists/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      Because sluts are unreliable as wives, given their inability to control their impulses and wait for marriage. The likelihood they’ll leave you for a better deal is almost absolute–and that’s if you’re lucky.

      OK, let’s not go overboard. This is simply not true. I know plenty of women with pretty robust sexual pasts who have been faithful to their husbands for 20+ years. Granted, these are upper middle class 2 earner marriages – and these folks don’t divorce much. And I don’t presume to know what goes on in other people’s marriages. A history of promiscuity does apparently correlate to higher divorce rates. But a huge leap is required from that truth to your statement.

  • Badger Nation

    “Don’t move to Allston. I lived there for three years, and got eye-raped every time I walked down the street.”
    .
    This highlights something that has bothered me for a long time – the creeping re-definition of “rape” to mean anything sexual a woman doesn’t like.
    .
    Getting leered at on the street is not like being “raped” in any way shape or form. Uncomfortable? Sure. Unnerving? Yeah. But is unrelated to someone forcing you to have sex with them. The comparison is absurd and insulting to real rape cases.
    .
    Feminists are expert at playing with language, they want to invoke the rage of rape by using the term at the first sign of a woman’s discomfort at anything a man does. It has backfired though and the word is losing its power. We’re to the point where we have had to back-define rape as “rape-rape.”
    .
    It could be anything from a violent attack by a major sicko (which I think someone has to be to pull off a forcible rape) to a woman who consents to intercourse but says “I think I should go home” mid-coitus (this led to a rape conviction in CA) to a woman was complimented on her legs on a college campus in broad daylight (http://menareangrynow.wordpress.com/2009/12/02/think-tank-with-cristina-sommers-camille-paglia/).
    .
    I take true rape very seriously. It’s hard to take it seriously when I have no idea what people are talking about because the term “rape” now encompasses so many behaviors.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger
      I adore Camille Paglia and respect Hoff-Summers. That is a great interview. I thought it was interesting that a young coed came into the Women’s Center in a mini skirt claiming she’d been “mini-raped.” Because some guy had admired her legs. Please.

  • terre

    “A partner swap every year and a half may be normal and healthy.”
    .
    It’s not normal by any means — this is an absolutely unprecedented trend in history, and it’s only been common for the last ~50 years. Again, if you want to take one tack when it comes to the negative effects of decreased pair bonding, you can’t advocate for promiscuity at the same time.

  • terre

    “I defend “slutdom” because I dislike how people seek to quantify a person’s worth by some sort of numerical process. If I don’t like how someone’s worth is measured through IQ scores and SATs then I certainly won’t be happy that women are being tossed out like sour milk for how many notches they have on their belts. I don’t believe a person’s past should be that indelible (mistakes are the best teachers) and I certainly think these “sluts” have motives of all different types.”
    .
    First of all, it’s others who are trying to “quantify” the concept (by constantly asking “Is 5 OK? How about 20? etc.) and second, it has nothing to do with “someone’s worth”; it’s about their suitability for marriage and relationships. IQ tests/test scores are completely apples and oranges and I’ve no idea why you’re trying to draw a simile between them.
    .
    I also find it absolutely bizarre how promiscuous women apparently see the word “mistake”: the men you slept with in the past were “mistakes”? Really? All of them? In what sense? Obviously they enjoyed the sex, or they wouldn’t have done it?

  • terre

    “There are a lot of reasons sex drives go up and down. Hormones associated with pregnancy and nursing, exhaustion, weight gain, and troubled relationships will all decimate a normal, healthy libido in a woman.”
    .
    This has nothing to do with why men have little to no sex once a woman is married. It’s a purely psychological and psychosomatic phenomenon.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “There are a lot of reasons sex drives go up and down. Hormones associated with pregnancy and nursing, exhaustion, weight gain, and troubled relationships will all decimate a normal, healthy libido in a woman.”
      .
      This has nothing to do with why men have little to no sex once a woman is married. It’s a purely psychological and psychosomatic phenomenon.

      That is simply untrue. Getting married should not, in and of itself, lead to a reduction in sex. I can tell you that pregnancy, childbirth, nursing every 3 hours, caring for an infant – KILLS sex drive. This is rooted in biology – women are flooded with hormones that ensure they prioritize the baby, not the husband. This is essential to the child’s survival.

  • Josephine

    @terre – I only drew the comparison to psychometrics to articulate that more often than not women are described by two numbers (the 1-10 attractiveness scale and how many men they’ve had) and that these two numbers are often regarded by some as THE ONLY measure of worth in the DMP. Again, some do this. Not all. I just wanted to say that I hope men, if interested in a woman for a LTR or what have you, would not get his pants in a bunch if he hears this woman has a man count of 7 or 8 or 9 without first seeing what the context was and whether her pattern of behavior has changed.

    And I know men on this site and in society get lumped in the whole alpha/beta categorization, and I see it, I do. To deny that some men and women are just better looking than others is just dumb and ignorant. If I look back on who I was ever interested in, I must say suaveness always trumped good looks for getting me interested. The guy I recently denied a hook-up with was someone I was really really attracted to and he is not a 9 or 10 to me.

  • Josephine

    Maybe a 9/10 to someone else is a solid 7 to me or vice versa.

  • terre

    Josephine, marrying a girl who gave away her sex for free takes a tremendous amount of wilful self-abasement, and it’s hardly the girls who in the end suffer for it. I’m also uncertain as to what point you’re trying to make about the alpha/beta categorization (which really only applies to men and not women). “Looks” are by no means an alpha pass card.

  • SayWhaat

    marrying a girl who gave away her sex for free takes a tremendous amount of wilful self-abasement

    I think it should be clear that girls who have had sex with boyfriends should not be viewed as “giving sex away for free”. Obviously, those boys had to pay the price of an exclusive relationship. And having sex while in a monogamous relationship does not reduce either partner’s “marriageability”.

  • Anni

    @Mike C
    “You are right, but some women truly do seem to bring heartache on themselves. If there is one thing I have a hard time feeling sorry for it is stupidity, especially an almost willful stupidity. I happened to click back on an old thread, and there was a woman posting who admitted she is a plain Jane, nothing special at all, yet absolutely has to have a 9-10 guy. To the degree she potentially gets used, manipulated, abused she really has brought it on herself.”
    .
    Yes, I agree, a lot of women do bring heartache on themselves and don’t believe guys who say they are not looking for anything serious etc. This is what this whole blog is about, telling women what to do and how to avoid that.
    .
    I can relate a personal story. I’ve had two men tell me they loved me “in their own special way” (sounds bad already, doesn’t it?). And I love them too. But it turned out the kind of love they meant was different from the kind of love I meant. They weren’t exactly lying about loving me (and have lived up to the “promise” in “their own special way”), but circumstance never allowed for the kind of relationship I wanted either. The result was still heartache. Totally my own fault, I agree.
    .
    For the record, there was also a third guy who said he loved me. But that word meant nothing to him and he was actually just saying it to get into my pants. Luckily I recognised that and never got involved with him despite his alpha swagger.

  • 108spirits

    A real man cares more about other things rather than how many stupid insignificant screw-ups I’ve had while in college, which don’t even mean anything to me. I can assure you that the one I marry will mean the world to me, I will be faithful to him and do my best to make him happy.

    LOL @ the hardworking rationalization hamster.

    Btw ladies, not just conservative and religious men care about your sexual past. I’m very far from conservative and not at all religious, and I do care. My male friends are similar. We aren’t stopping you from doing whatever you want, but we have to look out for ourselves if we ever decide to get serious, because we have the most to lose in Marriage 2.0. And that means making decisions that you will not like.

  • Josephine

    I know alpha/beta only applies to men (hence why I mentioned it as the male version of the 1-10 scale for women).
    .
    And I see where you are coming from, terre, about how many would feel “self-abase[d]” by marrying a woman who matches their definition of a “slut”, so I suppose it all depends on what each individual’s definition of “slut.” And hopefully this will involve more thought and consideration than just addition of numbers. (Acknowledging that some numbers are just daunting for men and women)

  • terre

    “I think it should be clear that girls who have had sex with boyfriends should not be viewed as “giving sex away for free”. Obviously, those boys had to pay the price of an exclusive relationship. And having sex while in a monogamous relationship does not reduce either partner’s “marriageability”.”
    .
    I don’t know how to respond to this because that’s not for either of us to decide. I can’t claim that my poverty “decreases my marriageability”, because I really don’t know; maybe it does, maybe not. It depends on the girl. Likewise, there’s no way of saying that sex “while in a monogamous relationship does not reduce either partner’s marriageability”; to whom are we referring? Knowing what I do about the effects of pair bonding and the way women tend to keep their “exes” in orbit, I’d never marry anything less than a virgin (but then, I have no intention of marrying in the first place). Mike C is a lot more lenient. What if you were attracted to me and not Mike?

  • Joe

    @Josephine – I only drew the comparison to psychometrics to articulate that more often than not women are described by two numbers (the 1-10 attractiveness scale and how many men they’ve had) and that these two numbers are often regarded by some as THE ONLY measure of worth in the DMP.

    I have to point out that, in the same spirit, a man’s worth in the SMP is described by only one, and it’s pass/fail, winner/loser, alpha/beta. It’s not any better.

  • Josephine

    @terre – As someone who isn’t really planning or thinking about it either, I’m curious: why do you have no intention of marrying?

  • Some honest dude

    I’m going to break guy code and cock-block. Girls, just stop having sex with us. Really. Make us verbally commit for it. This will only backfire if you don’t have anything beyond sex to offer. Virginity is a huge offer. (See premarital sex-divorce stats.)

    Look, most guys are just as dualistic as girls. We have our short-term and long-term interests, easy sex vs. committed relationship. When we’re in “just fuck” mode, we will only care about a principled virgin to the point we’re convinced she’s not kidding herself. This has NOTHING to do with finding her unattractive. At all. It has everything to do with maximizing time & efficiency.

    And when we say, “Oh, well, personally I like a girl with some experience. You’re not like one of those sheltered goody-two-shoes girls, are you?” — we are pretty much only trying to manipulate you into thinking you’re a loser if you don’t “loosen up” (“oh, and if it’s with me, that’s cool!”). But it’s bullshit. NEVER believe anything we say in “find-sex-now-mode”. Oh, yeah, we’re also pretty damn convincing about tricking you that we’re not in that mode when that’s exactly what we’re in. Presume the opposite of the judicial courts on this one.

    If anything, when we try this on you, that’s the best indicator that we’ve relegated you to the “not-investment-material” category (aka “slut”). Don’t be offended if you get this a lot, though — the title of this blog should explain why that’s now your default status in guys’ minds. Thanks to feminism, now girls are also guilty til proven innocent. The only girls I ever got feelings for were the ones who quickly shut down sex options, all sweet and innocent girls who didn’t REWARD & ENCOURAGE me to give in to my damn overcharged sexual instincts and treat them like shit.

    I speak as a mid 20s guy who is arguably hypocritical. I’ve always been religious to a degree, so I moderately tried to save sex until marriage. I’ve got my beta-nerd in me, but I got lucky in having apparently very good-looks and the awareness to keep the nerd interests to myself. After some dumb rationalization, I “messed around” casually with a number of chicks, though never going as far as intercourse (probably just to minimize my own cognitive dissonance w/my alleged principles). According to most defs., I’m a virgin, which would be a point of pride for me, only, the modern def. of ‘virgin’ is retarded. ‘Virginity’ means sexual purity; any slight fucking around and it’s gone. But at least my PRINCIPLES aren’t lopsided against either sex: I think the only real way to smoothly get along sexually/romantically is for everyone to just wait until marriage. And I always thought it was just somewhat arbitrary religious teaching!

    Simple? Yes. Easy? Hell no. Our society couldn’t be better designed to discourage you. You might not be able to wait until you’re 28 w/your secure corporate job, which might require you to defy everything you’re told is normal and “fulfilling”. (Sorry Florence, this means you prolly can’t tell a guy you’re waiting 5 sexless school/job years til any marriage.) Sad fact: career and romance are at odds for you; the more you lean one way, then the less the other. You might get lonely, especially since the guys who aren’t in fuck-mode aren’t NEARLY as motivated, esp. wanting what’s less common: a girl who doesn’t follow our culture into hedonism. They won’t approach you out of nowhere as much, since that’s shooting in the dark. As a result, you won’t meet them as often. Do it anyway. Don’t compromise w/hook ups. Yes, I’m telling girls to RAISE their standards.

    If you’re smart, and you want a committed man, you would advertise yourself as sexually unavailable/romantically available. Weed out the players (well, the ones who wanna stay uncommitted, which will be any of them who don’t feel bound to some higher principle against premarital sex, sorry). On avg, you will get about as much serious interest as an average man does w/girls, that is, not much unless you earn it (and let us SEE that).

  • Mike C

    A real man cares more about other things rather than how many stupid insignificant screw-ups I’ve had while in college,

    Forget sexual past/history. Take any particular belief about anything. That you like cake better the pie, or prefer Chinese food to Mexican. I must admit from a psychological perspective I find it interesting when woman employ this literary device about what a “real man” cares about or believes. To my knowledge, I’ve never seen a man write a “real woman” believes X or Y. Yet it does work often because many men are sensitive about their “masculinity” both internally and perceived by others.
    .
    My question is this tactic planned in the conscious or it is literally instinctual for women to try and manipulate men and their beliefs by connecting their “masculinity” to particular beliefs or behavior?

  • terre

    “My question is this tactic planned in the conscious or it is literally instinctual for women to try and manipulate men and their beliefs by connecting their “masculinity” to particular beliefs or behavior?”
    .
    You also tend to find that said “masculinity” is an identity fraught with sacrifice; i.e. a “real man” would help a lady, a “real man” would put his feelings aside, a “real man” would get a real job, a “real man” would grow up, a “real man” would commit, etc. These sentiments would be a little more palatable if they weren’t veiled behind a curtain of “masculinity” (as you said, one rarely hears of what a “real woman” would or wouldn’t do).

  • SayWhaat

    Mike C is a lot more lenient. What if you were attracted to me and not Mike?

    Doubtful I would choose someone like you over someone like Mike, because Mike’s views tend to align more closely with my own. If I were attracted to you, however, I would force myself to bounce because your life goals are clearly incompatible with mine.

    Knowing what I do about the effects of pair bonding and the way women tend to keep their “exes” in orbit, I’d never marry anything less than a virgin

    Hahaha! You think it’s just “exes” that remain in orbit? You think that virgins haven’t ever had their heart broken?

    Just a few weeks ago, this guy I hooked up with two years ago drunk-texted me at 2 am. I haven’t spoken to him in a year, nor thought about him in months. (Incidentally, the experience I had with this guy is exactly what led me to this blog in the first place.) And my high school crush (who was a supreme jerk, btw) still somehow manages to pop back up in my life by IMing me on Facebook at the most random times. I don’t know why.
    .
    I don’t respond to these guys, or I keep things brief and end the conversation. I haven’t even entertained thoughts of them in years. But they are still there, despite the fact that I have deleted their numbers from my phone.
    .
    My point is, if you think a virgin doesn’t come with her own baggage, think again.

  • terre

    “My point is, if you think a virgin doesn’t come with her own baggage, think again.”
    .
    Again, I have no intention of marrying, so what this line of assault has to do with anything I’ve said is beyond me. (Doubly curious since nothing you posted has anything to do with virgins, who ostensibly don’t have hook ups to get “drunk-texts” from).

  • SayWhaat

    Again, I have no intention of marrying, so what this line of assault has to do with anything I’ve said is beyond me. (Doubly curious since nothing you posted has anything to do with virgins, who ostensibly don’t have hook ups to get “drunk-texts” from).

    I was calling your belief that virgins don’t have any previous pair-bonding experiences into question. Drunken makeout sessions can qualify.

  • terre

    “I was calling your belief that virgins don’t have any previous pair-bonding experiences into question. Drunken makeout sessions can qualify.”
    .
    Er, alright, perhaps I should say “virgins who haven’t had drunken makeout sessions”, then.

  • SayWhaat

    Er, alright, perhaps I should say “virgins who haven’t had drunken makeout sessions”, then.

    Are you going to eliminate virgins that have had sober makeout sessions as well? Because those count too, if not more.
    .
    It’s a good thing you’re not planning on getting married. I’m not trying to be judgmental, it just seems like your expectations are unrealistic.

  • terre

    “Are you going to eliminate virgins that have had sober makeout sessions as well? Because those count too, if not more.
    .
    It’s a good thing you’re not planning on getting married. I’m not trying to be judgmental, it just seems like your expectations are unrealistic.”
    .
    My expectations are unrealistic in this sliver of the First World where that kind of behavior is normal, which is why I have no intention of marrying. Because most girls are in fact like this, one has to lower one’s expectations (and if this thread is any indicator, they keep getting lower, from “virgin” -> “meaningful sex once or twice” -> “meaningful sex with a dozen or so men” -> “meaningful sex with n number of men as well as a one-night stand here and there”) and it’s simply a lot easier for me to have no stake in the game to begin with.
    .
    (What even is a “makeout session”? Can a person really qualify as a “virgin” after one? Forsooth).

  • Andonandon

    “What even is a “makeout session”? Can a person really qualify as a “virgin” after one? ”

    Are you a troll?

  • Jess

    Susan,
    I wanted to say I appreciated your candid account of your earlier relationships. I would say the advice you offered I would completely agree with. I think you had a pretty healthy diet- the kind of thing I would want for any child of mine.
    .
    Mike c/Susan re fertility.
    Check out the medical info sites on this, infertility only rises a lot at 38 or 35-40 for the USA ones. So if a girl has 3 kids between 28 and 32 she is well away from infertiltiy issues.
    Genetic issues are more likely the older you are but they are still a low risk percentage wise even at 35. Ie 0.5% is 10 times more than 0.05% but it’s still low.
    I should also say that I got some info wrong last month. It turns out that both sperm and eggs ‘age’ but for different reasons. So the age of both parents can effect chances of disorders.
    .
    Rape issue.
    This is silly. Rape Is penile penetration of anus/vagina without express permission of the victim. Victims can be of either gender and any age.
    Sexual assault may have a wider definition but even then it’s not rocket science.
    If a guy grabs a womens crotch in the supermarket he has sexually assaulted her.
    It’s really easy not to sexually assault someone, look, I’m not assaulting someone right now.
    So less of the poor accused innocent man diatribe please.

  • terre

    “Are you a troll?”
    .
    I’m sorry?

  • terre

    Jess, where are you getting this extremely wrong information on genetics from? This isn’t the first time you’ve done this. Can you please at least link to a source?

  • Some honest dude

    Terre: “My expectations are unrealistic in this sliver of the First World where that kind of behavior is normal, which is why I have no intention of marrying. Because most girls are in fact like this, one has to lower one’s expectations (and if this thread is any indicator, they keep getting lower, from “virgin” -> “meaningful sex once or twice” -> “meaningful sex with a dozen or so men” -> “meaningful sex with n number of men as well as a one-night stand here and there”) and it’s simply a lot easier for me to have no stake in the game to begin with.”

    Yep. The logic of the “realistic” middle-grounders basically just boils down to: “But isn’t something better than nothing?!” That tends to justify a whole lot.

  • Matt T

    @terre regarding “slutdom”:

    Why should you marry “sluts”? Besides obvious evolutionary reasons, think about it this way: they spent their 20s riding Alpha cock, and now that they’re realizing that they can’t secure an Alpha for the long run, they’re settling for you. Do you want to be thought of as the lowly guy who they are “settling” for when they aren’t as hot as they were in their 20s? Or do you want to be a valued partner in her life, just as your wife is supposed to be a valued partner in yours?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt T

      Besides obvious evolutionary reasons, think about it this way: they spent their 20s riding Alpha cock, and now that they’re realizing that they can’t secure an Alpha for the long run, they’re settling for you.

      At the risk of repeating myself, I believe this meme is grossly exaggerated. Yes, it happens. However, I believe that the women who have “ridden Alpha cock” through their 20s is no more than 20% of the female population, and most of those will not seek marriage with a beta male. They’ll hold out forever for the Alpha guy, since they don’t need a provider.

  • Jess

    Terre,
    The info on infertility is accurate and is consistent across all the sites I visited. I have 3 times now given you the names of the sites I used. If you do/don’t wish to visit them then that’s mine by me.
    My one and only error (on the egg ageing) was what a doctor had told me prior to my own 1st pregnancy. Either he was wrong or i had misrecalled. As you can see I corrected myself.
    .
    I dont know if you are a troll or not but if you are serious about never having a relationship you are dooming yourself to such a wasted empty life. If you want a virgin girl join a church group and marry one. Why the anger towards people you dont want to connect with?

  • Florence

    “Josephine, marrying a girl who gave away her sex for free takes a tremendous amount of wilful self-abasement, and it’s hardly the girls who in the end suffer for it.”

    – Personally, I do not want to use ‘sex’ as some kind of bargain, or a manipulative tool to get a guy to marry me. Thinking that a man is marrying me so that he can finally have sex with me is actually very disturbing to me.

    @Spirits108
    “My male friends are similar. We aren’t stopping you from doing whatever you want, but we have to look out for ourselves if we ever decide to get serious, because we have the most to lose in Marriage 2.0. And that means making decisions that you will not like.”

    -It is exactly this line of thinking that is SO wrong and so common among men and the route of all evil! When a marriage breaks down, both parties lose, unless you’ve married a gold-digger. Not all women are gold-diggers. Actually, the women who DO use sex as a bargain, are the biggest gold-diggers and more likely to screw you over, rather than the ones who have awarded you with sex before marriage because they have trusted you and liked you enough to sleep with you.

  • terre

    “The info on infertility is accurate and is consistent across all the sites I visited. I have 3 times now given you the names of the sites I used. If you do/don’t wish to visit them then that’s mine by me.”
    .
    You’ve given me extremely vague names (“NHS”, “DoH” etc.) all of which contradict all known medical research. Again, why it would be so difficult for you to simply link me to one of these studies on fertility is a mystery.
    .
    I’m also not particularly angry? Where did you get that impression?

  • terre

    Florence, your point is also unclear and I can’t really address it for that reason.

  • Anonymous

    “5. From an evo psych perspective, a woman’s feisty ability to fight back (when raped) signaled the ability and fitness to bear and rear children.”

    What does this have to do with bitchiness or meanness?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “5. From an evo psych perspective, a woman’s feisty ability to fight back (when raped) signaled the ability and fitness to bear and rear children.”

      What does this have to do with bitchiness or meanness?

      It has to do with conflict. Women who fought back against rape provided friction, a key ingredient of sexual tension.

  • Plain Jane

    ”All the sluts who gave up the punani twice a week to the football stars will end up 30 years old wondering why Brett Favre doesn’t call them anymore”

    This is absolutely UNTRUE. The only ones that it is true for are those who were/are not pretty.

    All the pretty sluts from my University days are MARRIED with kids, while I, a Plain Jane, am single.

    Yo said it yourself, “When we DO want to settle down–we want you to be hot, in shape, a good cook, sweet and kind to animals, virginal, supportive, non-spendy, funny, and hot. Did I say be hot?”

    You mentioned “hot” in that sentence 3 times and the other qualities only once.

    Many, and maybe even most, American men care more about looks, even for LTRs and marriage, than about a slutty or non-slutty past.

    The evidence is out there in daily life, let’s not kid ourselves.

  • Cercando di capire

    @ Susan and Mike re: Sex at Dawn

    The authors actually do not advocate any particular type of partnership so I’m not sure why their relationship status makes what they are saying any more or less valid.

    And science-wise there’s actually not that much new that they are saying at least if you’ve read other books like Adapting Minds, Sperm Wars and Red Queen (to a lesser degree).

    The idea that human sexuality is very adaptive (albeit slowly but not as slowly as once thought) to the environment—including the economic system—is not a new one, just an over-looked one. The book Sperm Wars for example makes a very good case that monogamy, social monogamy, serial monogamy, poly-whatever have all existed during different times and social environments.

    The economic system probably plays the largest role in our changing mores (check out the divorce rate in Egypt and that it’s increasingly true that Palestinian women with jobs have better marriage prospects than those without; and super Catholic Italy claims a low divorce rate but the reality is fewer people marry and when they do they marry very late in life or only after having kids [increasingly thanks to free in-vitro from the government]…the list goes on)

    And might alcohol abuse be the single largest factor in risky sexual behavior among young middle class women and girls? (“The Relationship Between Recent Alcohol Use and Sexual Behaviors: Gender Differences Among Sexually Transmitted Disease Clinic Patients” from Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research Volume 32, Issue 11, pages 2008–2015, November 2008).

    I think this blog has a very important message for young women about social/gender/sex dynamics that I wish I new about when I was younger! Thanks for letting me join in!

    Grazie mille!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cercando

      The authors actually do not advocate any particular type of partnership so I’m not sure why their relationship status makes what they are saying any more or less valid.

      It’s a question of bias. Just as we rightly are suspicious of studies conducted by partisan think tanks, we should question the motives of a polyamorous couple writing about how monogamy is unnatural. Indeed, monogamy is somewhat unnatural for humans – yet it is also the societal framework that has produced the most robust economies. Monogamy is a compromise.
      .
      You make an excellent point re alcohol abuse. I believe it is the single largest factor in promulgating hookup culture. Without it very few hookups would happen, at least between strangers.

      P.S. Are you Italian?

  • Bob

    I’ve only read the first thirty or so comments, so if any of this is a repeat, consider it just affirmation of what others said.

    It’s important to recognize the difference between a “challenge,” a “push-pull,” and a “price of admission.”

    “Challenges” are euphemisms, like “curvy” or “has a good personality,” that puts a nice word to a foul concept. No guy wants a challenge, because that word just means a bitch who makes life miserable. The only time I’d go for a challenge would be if I hadn’t been laid in a long time, and she’d get the full brunt of my emotional unavailability. Challenging girls are the ones who require more effort than they are worth. Screw them.

    Push-pull, as has been pointed out, works. It’s probably some weird trigger left over from evolution that everyone has, and it makes us act irrationally. But it works. Make me cookies one day, disappear with your phone turned off the next, and I’m going to get emotionally invested even if I’m not happy with it.

    The price of admission is a mild challenge, where the sex outweighs the bitchiness. Most girls I date fit into this category. These are probably the ones that confuse girls most. But really, as Geoff pointed out way back at the beginning, if she’s hot enough – and if I haven’t been getting any lately – I’ll put up with the crap for her.

    As for why the hot guys go for the bitches, I’d say it’s because most attractive guys believe every single girl is a slut, so there’s no difference between them. They’ve seen sluts act like nice girls, so when they see an actual nice girl, they assume she’s really a slut. Certainly, for an attractive enough guy, even the nicest girls are eager enough to jump in the sack with them. If there’s no difference, and every girl’s a slut, why not take the hottest slut around?

    I’d be willing to bet a large part of the perception that slutty girls always have the best boyfriends is just the apex fallacy at work again. Plenty of betas in the sea, taking what they can get, while the alphas who settle for one pick the hottest one – because, to them, all women are sluts.

  • Anonymous

    @ Bob

    What you’ve described is accurate according my experiences.

    What bothers me here is how some of the men on this forum imply that a woman is a slut if she is not a virgin or that all women are sluts as Bob describes.

    If I eventually chose to sleep with you, it is not because 1) I am a slut or anything close to it, 2) I want to get you hooked and later break your heart or 3) Not because I want to use you for your money. As a side note, I do care about the money-making potential of a man only because I think that it would increase the survival chances of the offspring.

    If I eventually chose to sleep with you (after some push-pull and a clear sign for ur emotional investment), it is because I actually like you enough and most importantly trust you enough. As some of you have pointed out, when a woman sleeps with a man, she gets emotionally attached. Why would I risk getting emotionally attached to you if I didn’t like you enough?

    However, when you chose to break up with me under the excuse “I am not ready for a LTR relationship, I have the ‘cold feet syndrome’, “things are going too fast for me” or “I just want to be single again” and while playing the field some other woman screws you over, do NOT assume that all women are sluts. The nice girls you left behind for the bitches need not suffer or stay virgins and single until 30 or so, or even worse – being called “sluts” only because they are not virgins anymore.

  • terre

    Anonymous, I’m somewhat sceptical of exactly how badly these girls are being “played”. Where a man genuinely leads a girl on to believe she’s special to him and that he intends to stay with her only to leave, she has my sympathies, but I suspect cases as categorical as this are very rare. Most girls will rationalize what they know is bad for them because the man has made them so hot under the collar. She’s not just an idle lump incapable of being clear-headed.

  • 108spirits

    terre, men who have enough experience in the dating market will know that women loooooove to play the victim card. It’s healthy to be skeptical.

    What bothers me here is how some of the men on this forum imply that a woman is a slut if she is not a virgin or that all women are sluts as Bob describes.

    That’s not really what’s being said here by the men, but I don’t think men can ever explain this to modern women.

    Fellow men, I suggest we give up and leave it at that.

  • Lavazza

    Relating to the marriage/LTR window: In my twenties at uni in Sweden during the eighties most of us where looking to find a steady partner to eventually form a family with before leaving uni, since we thought that it would be harder to find eligible partners when working. Most would move to a different city or town, have less free time (or rather time flexibility), and be unsure of the dating scene in that location. For example lawyers and doctors in Sweden would often earn their first professional experience in provincial towns, where people form steady couples/families much earlier in life and where there are few professionals, and also move around a lot to get enough experience to be qualified to choose where to work. Therefor you needed to have a steady relationship that could survive being long distance for 1-3 years, meeting only most weekends. Almost none of my friends were not in a steady couple when leaving uni.

  • Lavazza

    Leaving uni at around the age of 25-26 (few guys could start uni before 20 since we graduate from HS at 19 and then have to do military service for around a year; a doctors degree was 5,5 years and a law degree was 4,5 years, if not failing in too many exams) and getting into a steady couple around the age of 22-23.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lavazza
      Well, this sounds quite favorable for women! In general, I get the impression that women have the upper hand in Sweden. Admittedly, I am not well informed, getting this impression mostly from the Stieg Larsson novels and Julian Assange case. Is this impression accurate?

  • Wayfinder

    @Florence

    I’ve tried telling guys that I want to wait until marriage, but when I tell them that marriage will not occur in the next 5 years, nobody is willing to wait. Please be understanding of that. They are willing to wait a few months, but when it comes to years they bail out. So it is either giving them some or staying single until marriage time.

    This was discussed earlier, but I think it illustrates something. I’ve seen a lot of girls with similar problems. If a guy is deliberately looking for marriage, he’s not going to want to wait around for years on what amounts to a maybe. Especially guys who will respect waiting for marriage.

    It really seems like most girls underestimate how important sex is to most guys. While guys sometimes want relationships for the social approval or companionship, the undercurrent is probably going to be his desire for you. (There are always exceptions, of course, and weeding those out is part of the problem.)

    I’d argue that for most men, being a boyfriend is either an extended hookup or a pseudo-marriage, depending on his emotional attachment. If you don’t want marriage, that works. But don’t view getting a long-term boyfriend as a step towards marriage, because it probably won’t work that way.

    There are relationships that do work like that, but it’s mostly because the two are attached enough that they start treating it as an almost-marriage. And if it turns out that one of them was less committed than they appeared, you get the heartbreak that makes up our modern landscape.

    It used to be that marriage acted as a gateway to ensure commitment before giving the committing partner something irretrievable (typically the woman securing the man) but obviously it doesn’t function that way anymore.

  • Workshy Joe

    Geoff is totally correct and it leaves me open-mouthed in amazement that some people STILL don’t get it.

    1. Good-looking people of both sexes are going to get alot of attention from the opposite sex. PERIOD.

    2. If you are good person who is NOT getting alot of attention from the opposite sex, I’m sorry friend, but you are just NOT THAT HOT.

    For what its worth, I have a girlfriend who is a genuinely good person who I am very compatible with in the sense of a long relationship, but to be brutally honest, NEITHER of us qualify as hotties here on Planet Earth.

  • SayWhaat

    “Challenges” are euphemisms, like “curvy” or “has a good personality,” that puts a nice word to a foul concept.

    This is completely off-topic, but I felt the need to object to the use of the word “curvy” here to imply “fat”.

    Fat is not curvy. Fat is fat.

    k thx

  • Badger Nation

    “This is completely off-topic, but I felt the need to object to the use of the word “curvy” here to imply “fat”.
    Fat is not curvy. Fat is fat.
    k thx”
    .
    SW, you are totally missing the point. By dictionary definition curvy is not fat – but on the street, “curvy” often means someone is euphemising “fat.”

  • OffTheCuff

    It is exactly this line of thinking that is SO wrong and so common among men and the route of all evil!

    @Flo: Wonderful shaming language, here! If a man tries to protect himself by analyzing risk and changing his behavior to minimize it, it is not only wrong, but the root of *all* evil in the world! You’re a natural.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Badger:

    No, I got the point. I’m just on a one-woman crusade on this thread to stop people from equating curvy with fat.

    :D

  • Geoff 2

    @108spirits, I’m with you brother. I’m trying to help, and yet the shield wall of “a REAL man will overlook my sexual partners before marriage so it’s ok for me to go ahead and sleep with that hot lacrosse player” is fucking impenetrable.
    /
    @Some Honest dude, Well said. Every woman here should print your post and keep it in their wallet to pull out for reference when a guy says “I want to marry a girl with SOME experience sweetheart! And you know how much I care for you…deeply. Now drop your panties.”
    /
    @Plain Jane, I’m sorry if my callous post hurt you (I genuinely mean that)—but I’m trying to break through the hamster wheels clearly in operation at this website. Hotness does matter—but if you’re not hot, you can IMPROVE your chances of getting a good guy (not a Brett Favre) by doing/being those things I mentioned in my first post. Sluthood DOES HURT YOUR STANDING! So just because you can get a guy from the lacrosse team to have sex with you who is MUCH better looking than you is NOT a reason to do it. Recognize where you are on the 10 point scale and play in that part of the pond WHILE RETAINING your virtue (or what may be left of it). Your life will be a LOT happier that way. Hope you find a great guy in your looks range.
    /
    Men will get away with having sex before marriage, even with many partners. You ladies will not. Accept it, cry about it and then accept it, get angry and then accept it, or get angry then cry then accept it, etc. Wishing the world was different is what makes people unhappy with the world. Keep your panties on (or at least put them back on if you’re no longer a virgin) and force a guy to marry you before he gets into Disneyland.

  • Bob

    @ SayWhaat:
    I like the dictionary definition of curvy. But aside from magazines talking about Christina Hendricks, I haven’t seen the word used properly in years. It’s fat girls you should be crusading against, not guys (at least on that issue).

    @ Anon right after my first post:
    I didn’t say all girls are sluts. I said that, to an apex alpha, like a college quarterback, all girls must seem like sluts. That’s their experience in the world. If I went by my college experience, without the observations of the world around me, I’d say most girls are frigid and sexless (with a couple of exceptions). Perception is every bit as important as reality in a social context.
    For the record, I’m not sure where the draw the line between “slut” and “not a slut.” It certainly involves more than just a number. If I had to settle on one trait, it would be, “hasn’t slept with any of these assholes with 100+ notches.” But I don’t have to just pick one, so I’m still thinking it over.
    But then, my definition should only matter to you if I was a potential boyfriend – which I suppose, due to the nature of anonymous posting, is entirely possible, but you get the idea.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bob

      For the record, I’m not sure where the draw the line between “slut” and “not a slut.” It certainly involves more than just a number. If I had to settle on one trait, it would be, “hasn’t slept with any of these assholes with 100+ notches.” But I don’t have to just pick one, so I’m still thinking it over.

      I think this is a fair standard. Every woman knows who the man whores are. Well, except for the new freshmen, but even they can figure out what’s up pretty quickly. If I were a man I would also draw the line here. A woman who lays down for a man whore has zero self-respect, but lots of misguided ambition (see Karen Owen).

  • Badger Nation

    SW,
    .
    You and I are on the same side. I like curvy women, I don’t care for fat women stealing the word curvy to feel better about themselves. Don’t tolerate it, don’t let your girlfriends down-vote themselves on online dating sites by putting curvy when they’re full-figured, slim when they are medium build, etc.

  • Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c)

    Susan,
    you are asking why sluts have ‘boyfriends’? Surely you can’t be serious. And the ‘sluts’ are often the most mentally unstable of the lot. That’s why they are sluts. They are seeking reaffirmation via sex very often.

    As for ‘nice girls’? Why would a man want one of them any more? They are JUST as dangerous as the sluts. You can go read my story. But I married a ‘nice girl’ only for her to turn into ‘bitch from hell’ in divorce. While you women tolerate women being ‘bitch from hell’ in divorce and while your sistas HATE on us men trying to remedy this situation? What sane man would want ANY of you western women? I don’t. I date eastern women because they are not full of hatred of men programmed into them by Feminism (ie The Illuminati… http://www.henrymakow.com)

  • Rye

    @Geoff
    I enjoy reading your posts and analysis, but from my experince, men balk at being “forced” into marriage, as you put it. Could you elaborate further on this, as it appears some men comparatively see this as being on the same level as being cuckolded.
    Other than that, speaking as a 19 year old virgin, it appears that some guys prefer virgins and some guy could care less. Do correct me if I am wrong. There are some guys who will not settle for anything less than a virgin bride, but there are some that do not mind (assuming that the woman didn’t bang an entire league.) It’s encoded in the DNA of all men to beware of signs of “sluthood.” However, there are men who state firmly that they wouldn’t mind commitment to a non-virgin. What seperates these two groups of men? Higher levels of testosterone, maybe? The point is there are certain males who comment on this board who fall into the “prefer virgin” type, but it doesn’t reflect the day-to-day demographics I see (again, correct me if I am wrong.) The question of what constitutes a “slut” is undefineable because it is different for each man.
    In terms of a woman being able to find a commitment, the general advice is go for 28-32 year old men in their “commitment phase”

    Oh, and we are veering off topic, but the “accept me for who I am” attitude in this country contributes to women and men (yeah, but mostly women lol) staying chunky. During the 90s there was a wave of criticism of the bodies of female stars that continues to this day. I don’t think there is intense pressure to look a certain way that Western women claim the media perpetrates. If you eat healthy/exercise it is relatively easy to maintain a nice figure. The only problem is when a woman wants to please a new boyfriend who likes a “little” junk in the trunk, so to speak lol

  • Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c)

    Florence says:
    “When a marriage breaks down, both parties lose, unless you’ve married a gold-digger. Not all women are gold-diggers.”
    Gents,
    this is the typical bullshit we have to put up with from wimminz. The NAWALT crap. To be true this only requires ONE woman in the world to be ‘not like that’. This is the weakest pssible argument and it is CONSTANTLY presented by women. It should be ignored for the crap it is. I have published vast amounts of material about my divorce to expose the fact that VIRTUALLY ALL WESTERN WOMEN are complicit and condone the crimes committed against men in divorce. When I challenge women on this? They ALWAYS acknoweldge in the end that they know these crimes are going on and that they are NOT willing to do something about it. The facts are 90%+ of the time the man is badly screwed over. Up to and including my case of 5% vs 95% as well as the crimes of perjury, kidnapping, theft and extortion committed against me. Almost NO women and precious few men as well have been willing to assist in seeing justice done. THAT is what I tell the young men. They are listening. LIARS like Florence can go to hell and more men should be telling them to do so.

  • Mike C

    @ Susan,

    This post has obviously gotten a ton of comments so I’m guessing my questions the other night got lost in the mix. They were genuine questions so I hope you’ll try to answer. I am interested in how the female sex drive perhaps varies from say 20-40, and in the importance of sex as part of the relationship. The parts I excerpted do seem to send a conflicting message.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      Sorry, I’ve been struggling to keep up with the blog while my kids have been home. Your question did fall through the cracks, but I’m happy to try and answer it now. Keep in mind that I am no expert on sexuality. I speak from personal experience, with some anecdotal evidence from friends thrown in.
      .
      There are some very clear ways in which women differ from men wrt sex drive. We think of sex a lot less frequently during the day. We masturbate less, though this varies by individual. I’d say it’s quite rare for a woman to masturbate more than once a day, though. Our fantasies are also different. Women experience a “stomach flop” or “clit twinge” more frequently imagining a passionate kiss or declaration of love than sexual penetration. Romance novels are all about the buildup.
      .
      Most women can go for prolonged periods without sex. As someone who loves sex, I can easily imagine going without for five years or even indefinitely if the right man was not available. For us, sex is inextricably linked to emotional connection with an individual male. There are exceptions, apparently, but for most women, this is the norm. Most of the casual hooking up that goes on involves the woman hoping for something more than a ONS.
      .
      However, once we feel comfortable in a sexual relationship, we can display a sex drive as strong as any man’s. Obviously, this varies by woman. In the situation I described, my sex drive was way higher than my bf’s. I’d suspected this before our trip, but his relative apathy toward sex killed our relationship. It’s very possible he just wasn’t into it with me – I hope for his sake that was the case. But there’s no question that I had the upper hand in that relationship, but also the higher sex drive. We fought about it. I distinctly remember getting dressed at one in the morning, and setting out for a walk in Innsbruck, Austria in total frustration. I was 22, he was 24.
      .
      At the risk of sharing too much information, but to put it in perspective, my husband and I were together for nearly four years before we skipped a day. Before we had kids, weekends were often given over to sex, with meals in between. Having children changed everything, especially for me, but we’ve weathered the dry spells. I tease him that at 56 he should have glowing embers, not flames of passion, but he hasn’t slowed down a bit. I once mentioned this to my doctor, who said that many women complain of the opposite problem – their husbands have totally lost interest in sex. So I consider myself fortunate that my husband still desires me after all these years.
      .
      It’s hard to say how the female sex drive varies according to age, because it depends very much on who your partner is, and what’s happening in your lives. I was more eager in my 20s, I suppose, but am fairly game even in my 50s. I daresay we’ll eventually turn into one of those old wrinkled couples who gets it on. I hope so. I do think sexual compatibility is very important. If it isn’t great in the beginning, it’s not going to be great later.
      .
      By the way, I recall that you have struggled with the awkwardness of not wanting to offend, but also wanting more variety. My advice is to tell her, with dominance, what you desire. We women are eager to please but cannot always anticipate male impulses. If you frame it in such a way that you desire to see her in such and such a position, or share that you have fantasized her doing some particular thing, she will be eager to please you if she loves you. And I know that your gf loves you!

  • tom

    Why do sluts have the guys?…………SEX.. Most men,not all, are dogs.

    @ Peter…you said

    you are asking why sluts have ‘boyfriends’? Surely you can’t be serious. And the ‘sluts’ are often the most mentally unstable of the lot. That’s why they are sluts. They are seeking reaffirmation via sex very often.

    Often also means not always….Some single women like sex, and are not in a relationship
    Dude you were burned so badly it has skewed your entire view of women.
    We can not put all women in the same catagory, It would be like saying all black men are thugs or all people who drink are alcohloics.
    This is pretty simple…..Men love sex, sluts(I hate that word)love sex and will give it up.

    The word slut is purely subjective. It is perception that brings it alive….Sure there are a lot of nuts who are also promiscuous, but it is a far stretch to say most of them are.

  • Some honest dude

    terre said: Anonymous, I’m somewhat sceptical of exactly how badly these girls are being “played”. Where a man genuinely leads a girl on to believe she’s special to him and that he intends to stay with her only to leave, she has my sympathies, but I suspect cases as categorical as this are very rare. Most girls will rationalize what they know is bad for them because the man has made them so hot under the collar. She’s not just an idle lump incapable of being clear-headed.

    Despite the moral failure of my promiscuous period, I did retain a conscience. I can’t speculate about most guys, but not once did I ever tell any girl anything that would lead her on. Every time I told her that I just want to have some “harmless fun” and that I wasn’t interested in any serious relationship at that time of my life (I definitely was; she was just disqualified for one character/compatibility reason or another).

    Some girls balked at this and were noticeably annoyed. Of course, most of these were not innocent girls sticking valiantly to their principles; they were always girls who had simply learned after enough hook ups that they don’t really even enjoy sex when there’s no affection/commitment. But the rest made no objections to it once I moved past the predictable, superficial resistance.

    For about maybe a third to half of them, directly and straightforwardly saying, “I do not want a serious relationship,” apparently wasn’t enough to clarify that I, in fact, did not want a serious relationship. After a few times with one girl (each months apart, the only times we hung out) I could sense that she was upset with “guys” being too sexual. For amusement, I told her we should “go all the way” the next time and she agreed wholeheartedly. We didn’t hang out again til way later, when her sister walked in on us doing stuff and then scolded her for, as I found out just after, having a boyfriend — apparently a “church guy” whom she had never given anything up to, by whom she wasn’t ever urged or pressured into having sex.

    Basically, it seems girls often choose to ignore all indications that the guy they’re sexually attracted to is not romantically attracted to her, even amid his blunt contradictory testimony. This may be wishful thinking. It may be rationalization of weakness/sluttiness. Who knows? But for some reason they do it, and then complain afterward, oftentimes as if victimized.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Some Honest Dude
      Thanks for sharing.

      Basically, it seems girls often choose to ignore all indications that the guy they’re sexually attracted to is not romantically attracted to her, even amid his blunt contradictory testimony. This may be wishful thinking. It may be rationalization of weakness/sluttiness. Who knows? But for some reason they do it, and then complain afterward, oftentimes as if victimized.

      I don’t understand this either. I wouldn’t be able to get through the day for all the noise in my head. All I can say is that when a guy says straight up what he does and doesn’t want, and a woman reinterprets that to suit her own wishful thinking, the fallout is entirely her fault. I suspect that the women who tend to do this do not learn after one painful experience, but are doomed to repeat this mistake forever, or until they snag some chump who they cannot even respect.

  • Geoff 2

    To the young lady who tells potential suitors that she is waiting on sex until marriage, and marriage will wait at least five years for her career…

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/i-cant-make-this-shit-up/

    Men don’t care what you do for a living–if they care at all, they DON’T want to marry a lawyer OR a stripper. Be an elementary school teacher if you want the brass ring. If you ladies want to know how to succeed in the battle to get a good husband, read Roissy’s website on the regular. You’ll be sickened at first, but truth is more important than fantasy in war. And TRUST ME, you are in a war with every woman on the planet to get the best husband/father you can.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      . If you ladies want to know how to succeed in the battle to get a good husband, read Roissy’s website on the regular. You’ll be sickened at first, but truth is more important than fantasy in war. And TRUST ME, you are in a war with every woman on the planet to get the best husband/father you can.

      I reject this. Roissy is a sick fuck. He has some brilliant insights, but most women will not benefit from reading him, or his commenters. Besides, Roissy is no longer reliably the writer, which is unacceptable. The posts by other writers don’t compare to his own sick and twisted commentary.
      .
      I do agree that intrasexual competition for quality men is fierce. I just don’t think Roissy helps women to compete.

  • Wayfinder

    @Susan
    Yeah, they’re different – but from the guy’s perspective that just makes it feel worse! There’s no easy answer for this whole thing.
    Badger Nation and some of the commenters in the other thread are on to something with the disqualification coming from discrete populations rather than as some kind of absolute figure.

  • Some honest dude
    @SayWhaat
    “These days, the smart thing to do is get through college and start a career, and marry later than your mom and I did. It’s unrealistic to wait until marriage, and I don’t expect you to. Sex is a natural consequence of a loving relationship. In fact, I’d question any relationship that did not eventually lead to sex. Just be sure you have sex with a guy who would make a good father.”

    [...]This is great advice, IMO. Since the average woman spends fifteen years between puberty and marriage, a strategy like this is realistic and sensible.

    I’ve got to disagree with you here, Susan. While I advocate mostly rejecting the culture which supports and encourages casual hook ups and premarital sex, in favor of a traditional lifestyle w/earlier marriage, there will be no way of circumventing the very substantial risk women — and men — make when they serially date w/the notion that sex is just something you inevitably do once you’re sufficiently infatuated or convinced that it’s going to last. I’ve known of too many nice girls regretting it after getting unlucky or just getting played by a guy they (rationally?) thought would be the one.

    On one hand, the fact they “broke the seal” causes them to lose a good amount of discretion and respect for the unique importance of sex. On another, people date very serially these days. You say a girl can typically expect to wait ~15 years between puberty and marriage. Well, how many serious relationships do you think she can expect to have in that time, especially if she’s very pretty and nice with a long line of eager suitors? Also, after about how many months on avg. of a LTR would this acceptable natural consequence be inevitable and acceptable? Even if she waits a year, which is a rare choice and would likely shorten successively, she’s already up to 5 if she has one of these relationships every 3 years. That’s 5 men with whom she strongly bonded emotionally and sexually, and I know you’re aware of the decline of oxytocin’s affect with experience and (I think) age.

    I can sympathize with the struggle of waiting it out, especially since I’ve given up basically everything for two years now. However, I don’t see this middle ground that some folks advocate as being anything except wishful thinking. When someone jumps to one side of a seesaw and it goes down, anyone standing at the center (seeing the good of both sides, usually indecisive as a result) will eventually slide and tumble down unless he jumps into the opposite seat. For every time an abstinent girl misses out on a modern good-enough guy who passes her up, she will probably still avoid an immature or tricky guy who she won’t (and won’t want to) realize was a waste of time until after 2 years getting used, cynical, jaded, etc. Perhaps I’m being too optimistic though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Some Honest Dude
      You may be right. It’s a very tough call, because we’re all human and 15 years in one’s sexual prime is a long time to be abstinent! Perhaps humans will evolve to mature sexually later. Or perhaps something will happen that drives down the age of marriage dramatically. I just can’t see how this 15 year span between onset of menses and marriage is sustainable, if any kind of chastity is valued by men.

  • 108spirits

    To the young lady who tells potential suitors that she is waiting on sex until marriage, and marriage will wait at least five years for her career…

    I’ve told the story here before, but I have a friend who’s dated two virgin girls (not at the same time) and broke up with them for that very reason. He’s 28, and both girls are 25, so no spring chicken. Both girls are of the no sex before marriage type. They really liked each other, one girl is head over heels for him. One told him she needed 5 years to go live in other countries to work for her Christian charity, and the other said she needed 6 years to establish her career as a doctor, before marriage.

    Guess what my friend told them? LOL

  • terre

    “I enjoy reading your posts and analysis, but from my experince, men balk at being “forced” into marriage, as you put it. Could you elaborate further on this, as it appears some men comparatively see this as being on the same level as being cuckolded.”
    .
    Men are never terribly thrilled about marriage (although my opinion has waxed and waned at different times) which is probably why, in the past, community pressure forced bachelors to make a choice and why in India they still hand out dowries to push up the marriage figures. Given no incentive, no reproach if they stay single forever and all of the remaining unpleasantness that still accompanies marriage today, I wager most men won’t marry (and this appears to be the case, at least as far as marriage figures are concerned).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Given no incentive, no reproach if they stay single forever and all of the remaining unpleasantness that still accompanies marriage today, I wager most men won’t marry (and this appears to be the case, at least as far as marriage figures are concerned).

      Nearly 80% of men in college state a firm intention to marry. In the U.S., the marriage rate varies considerably according to education, class and race.

  • Mike C

    He’s 28, and both girls are 25, so no spring chicken. Both girls are of the no sex before marriage type. They really liked each other, one girl is head over heels for him. One told him she needed 5 years to go live in other countries to work for her Christian charity, and the other said she needed 6 years to establish her career as a doctor, before marriage.

    Guess what my friend told them? LOL
    .
    Something like this is almost surreal. Take the doctor. You’ve got to be at least above-average IQ for that. Yet this “life plan” almost reveals a total lack of any worldly sense whatsoever. No guy is going to wait 5-6 years even if both people think they are “right” for each other but the woman prioritizes X,Y,Z over getting married and getting on with it. The Christian one presumably places an emphasis on family and children, yet is following a life plan that substantially increases the probability that won’t happen.

  • terre

    “Yeah, they’re different – but from the guy’s perspective that just makes it feel worse! There’s no easy answer for this whole thing.”
    .
    This is what I find so ironic about the struggle to claim that a one-night stand is categorically different from meaningful “relationship sex”. If anything, the latter would bother me more (and it did with my last girlfriend); people do not bond and forget easily.

  • Aldonza

    @Some Honest Dude
    That’s 5 men with whom she strongly bonded emotionally and sexually, and I know you’re aware of the decline of oxytocin’s affect with experience and (I think) age.
    .
    Please provide the citation (not just another blog) for this “bonding” thing. I’ve tried to find any evidence of it in the literature and came up with nothing.

  • terre

    “OK, let’s not go overboard. This is simply not true. I know plenty of women with pretty robust sexual pasts who have been faithful to their husbands for 20+ years. Granted, these are upper middle class 2 earner marriages – and these folks don’t divorce much. And I don’t presume to know what goes on in other people’s marriages. A history of promiscuity does apparently correlate to higher divorce rates. But a huge leap is required from that truth to your statement.”
    .
    Assuming Teachman’s study was well-founded (and there appears to be no reason why not, since it’s predicated on a national survey well over the needed sample size) Geoff is more than correct. Even if a girl’s slept with ‘just’ two other men before her marriage, her marital stability stands at less than 45%. Over four and it’s down to 30%.

  • terre

    “That is simply untrue. Getting married should not, in and of itself, lead to a reduction in sex. I can tell you that pregnancy, childbirth, nursing every 3 hours, caring for an infant – KILLS sex drive. This is rooted in biology – women are flooded with hormones that ensure they prioritize the baby, not the husband. This is essential to the child’s survival.”
    .
    Pregnancy kills the sex drive? That’s a curious hypothesis Susan. But that aside, all of these are completely trivial if a man knows how to push a girl’s buttons. Because marriage is an act of great supplication on the part of the male, it takes an equally great man to overcome that obstacle and remain sexually appealing in her eyes. Most men are not great, ergo most men suffer after marriage. (It’s also interesting that you’re discussing childbirth, since around half of babies are born out of wedlock).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre
      You’re right, pregnancy does not kill the sex drive, though it makes marathon sessions quite impractical ;)
      The truth is, these life changes are anything but trivial. Many new parents exist on a few hours of sleep for months on end. It’s actually extremely common for men to lose their sex drive during this time as well. Honestly, if you haven’t lived through having children, you cannot possibly know what it’s like to pull all-nighters with a sick baby. I do believe that both the male and female libidos shut down during this period. I can tell you, for example, that sex right after childbirth was incredibly painful – for 2 months, at least. And I had c-sections; no trauma to the vagina. It was as if my body said, “No way!” until a couple of months had passed.
      .
      I don’t think there are many dads who comment here regularly, but I can assure you that the childbearing years are all about the babies. Sex and romance go onto the back burner.

  • Florence

    @Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c)

    “The facts are 90%+ of the time the man is badly screwed over.”

    As I said, when a divorce occurs, both parties lose, and that loss extends to more than just the financial aspect of it. Turning into a “bitch from hell” is a response generated by some women (not all) who are only trying to ensure her and her offspring’s survival. Depending on the circumstances of the divorce, if anger is generated because of cheating on the husband’s part, the need to revenge would exponentially enhance her bitchiness.Thus, men – don’t cheat on your wifes!

    Second reason for a woman to try to get the most from a divorce is the fact that she believes her husband has a higher chance of re-marrying than her. That is because the attractiveness of a woman declines with age, while the money-generating power of a man increases with age. In addition, having kids further damages the attractiveness of a female on the SMP.

    A divorces can cause severe emotional damage to both parties, including their children. Stress, generated during a divorce can cause all kinds of illnesses later in life. Therefore, if possible, a divorce should be avoided by all means.

    @Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c)
    “Almost NO women and precious few men as well have been willing to assist in seeing justice done. THAT is what I tell the young men. They are listening. LIARS like Florence can go to hell and more men should be telling them to do so.”

    First of all, I am not a LIAR. Second, you would have to further explain what you felt was unjust and the circumstances of your divorce. I believe that a 95:5 is a bit extreme, but again I do not know the circumstances.

    I agree, that some women would turn into much bigger “bitches from hell” than others and do extreme things or even crimes in order to revenge, especially if a man has cheated on them. Similarly, the egos of some men are bigger than the egos of others, which can cause them to be bigger jerks than their fellows.

    I have heard that nowadays a man can do a lot of things to protect his money/property b4 marriage and to ensure that if a divorce occurs, only a fair proportion would go to his wife.
    My best advice is to marry a woman who makes good money and who is independent. Don’t marry a lazy woman who does not want to work a single day in her life, who only cares about her beauty, who shops excessively, and who expects you to pay for everything. If you marry such a woman, then don’t go back complaining to the rest of us, hard-working women, that you got screwed over money…you chose to!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence
      OK, I just saw this:

      @Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c)
      “Almost NO women and precious few men as well have been willing to assist in seeing justice done. THAT is what I tell the young men. They are listening. LIARS like Florence can go to hell and more men should be telling them to do so.”

      That is completely unacceptable, and PAN is banned from commenting.

  • karen

    Just to add my view, I feel that there is a lot of pressure on females to be in a relationship. So add that to the slutty girl getting the good guy, and us females can be forgiven for being shocked. In my own situation, I am the only female at my office who is single and childless. Some of my male coworkers are also in the same situation but I definitely get that we are treated differently. The view is that my similarly aged male coworkers are just playing the field while I’m anti-social. The reason that I’m not in a relationship is because I haven’t met a guy that I want to be in a LTR. I actually want to meet a nice guy that I have a connection with. I’d rather be single for the next few years rather than be in a relationship just so that I can say “I have a boyfriend/husband.” I’ve never been the type of female who has to be in relationship to be happy. I’ve also noticed that many women who comment on my lack of a boyfriend are the same women who constantly complain about their boyfriends and husbands.

    Thanks to the males here for their comments. In college I was that nerdy, studious, goody two-shoes virgin that was ignored by guys. Now I have a pretty good idea of why that was. To be honest, I’m not offended by men who hold a woman’s number of sexual partners against her. I’ve known women who hold a man’s salary against him. We all measure potential partners using some type of screening process. I know I would never date a guy who had a domestic violence charge or had children from a previous relationship. I’m honest about what I can’t accept from a guy. Plus, I want a guy to accept me for me. When I was younger, for a period of time, I tried to be the type of female that many guys wanted. I quickly learned that I was unhappy and didn’t like pretending to be someone that I wasn’t. Now, what you see is what you get from me and I am so much happier. Over the last couple of years, I’ve managed to attract some really great guys just being myself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Karen

      Plus, I want a guy to accept me for me. When I was younger, for a period of time, I tried to be the type of female that many guys wanted. I quickly learned that I was unhappy and didn’t like pretending to be someone that I wasn’t.

      This is really important. There are times when “fake it till you make it” can work wonders in building self-confidence for a short period of time. But ultimately, we’ll be miserable if our behavior is not congruent with our true personalities and desires. In my view, this explains why so many women are miserable hooking up. It’s a means to an end, but the end is very uncertain. They wind up spending a great deal of time compromising themselves without an eventual success.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Geoff2

    “@Plain Jane, I’m sorry if my callous post hurt you (I genuinely mean that)—but I’m trying to break through the hamster wheels clearly in operation at this website.”

    I think its YOU who suffers from the annoying sound of the hamster wheel in your head. I hate to be the one to break this to you buddy, but “virginity” hasn’t been a requirement to get married in mainstream Western culture now for several decades. If you think it still is then you are either very old and out of touch or belong to a religious cult.

    That being said, I’m not arguing for promiscuous behaviour in either sex, but MOST mainstream Americans living now were not virgins when they married. Even my grandmother was not a virgin, she had an intimate relationshp before meeting my grandfather. They’ve been married 60 years.

    “Hotness does matter—but if you’re not hot, you can IMPROVE your chances of getting a good guy (not a Brett Favre) by doing/being those things I mentioned in my first post.”

    OK, I just googled “Brett Favre” and he is gross. Not goodlooking and he is OLD. I suppose he’s rich so that is what you mean by a “good guy” – rich and a famous athelete?

    My standards for “good” have nothing to do with money or fame, so I’ll pass. And besides, my type is more Morris Chestnut than “pinkie”.

    “Sluthood DOES HURT YOUR STANDING!”

    Stop with the moralizing. I’m not arguing for “sluthood”. I’m just saying that in today’s post-modern West, if a woman is really beautiful, she will WILL be able to land commitment from a man MUCH EASIER than a Plain Jane, regardless of her past.

    Brangelina anyone?

    “So just because you can get a guy from the lacrosse team to have sex with you”

    What’s with you and sports figures? Hmmmm….

    ”Hope you find a great guy in your looks range.”

    Thanks. All the “great guys” in my “looks range” are in LTRs with women they find “hot” – who also have more sexual experience than they do, as MOST women on average have more sexual experience than men in this culture, if your hero Roissy is to be believed.

    “Men will get away with having sex before marriage, even with many partners. You ladies will not.”

    Again, you missed the memo. All those married women that you see at Wal-mart or Target or Starbucks or whatever? How many of them do you thing were virgins on their wedding night?

    ”Accept it, cry about it and then accept it, get angry and then accept it, or get angry then cry then accept it, etc. Wishing the world was different is what makes people unhappy with the world.”

    Good advice for you and other men who want to marry virgins.

    “and force a guy to marry you before he gets into Disneyland.”

    I don’t understand what Disneyland has to do with anything, but to be honest, I agree with the MRAs and PUAs that marriage is obsolete and a bad deal for men. I’m not one to force others into deals that are bad for them, are you?.

    Look, your whining over the loss of America’s virginity is not being heard. Susan Walsh herself was not a virgin when she married and here she is now, a happily married 50-something woman with 2 grown children, a husband that adores her, a home and a blog!

    Americans have not expected their spouses to be “virgins” since the 60s.

    I’m assuming you are either very old or a member of a religious cult. Either way its ironic that you would recommend us to read Roissy’s blog.

    People interested in LTRs would do better to read blogs by people who are, well, successful in LTRs. Thats NOT Roissy. Rather its people like Susan, even though she *gasp* was not a “virgin” when she married.

    (Roissy is how old and he still hasn’t managed to get a woman to want to have his baby?)
    __________________________________________________________________________

    To the woman here who wants to marry but not for 5 years – why? You can continue with your studies AND start a career while being married. My grandparents did it, as well as my cousin.

  • Geoff

    Roissy of roissy.wordpress.com is in fact a guy explaining the world in all its imperfect wonder. To say women would get nothing out of reading his blog for a month or so I find curious. His catchphrase is “where pretty lies perish.”

    I would hope women’s eyes would be wide open after a month, and they would be more immune to a guy trying to convince them to give up their virginity for what they hope is a LTR, and the guy sees as his 7 o’clock date that he can ditch for his 10 o’clock if it isn’t going well.

    He’s not concerned about anyone’s “feelings” but simply the truth–if that makes him sick, guess I’m sick too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      He’s not concerned about anyone’s “feelings” but simply the truth–if that makes him sick, guess I’m sick too.

      Well you said it, so I don’t have to. My favorite example of Roissy’s true character was an anecdote he told and later deleted from his blog. A woman he picked up in a bar was just a little too sure of herself. He took her home and had his best orgasm ever “as she winced with pain during anal sex.” He went on to say, “The best sex I have ever had was when I was degrading women.”
      .
      I would never intentionally subject my female readers to the sociopathy of Roissy. I also would warn men about falling under his spell. He does write some excellent posts for men, and he has some good insights into female nature, but I’ve never read a more sadistic, emotionally disabled writer. Take his advice to heart only if you aspire to end up like him.

  • Plain Jane

    * “5. From an evo psych perspective, a woman’s feisty ability to fight back (when raped) signaled the ability and fitness to bear and rear children.”

    – What does this have to do with bitchiness or meanness?

    * “It has to do with conflict. Women who fought back against rape provided friction, a key ingredient of sexual tension.”

    What I was getting at here is why would resisting rape be compared to being bitchy or mean? You are listing the possible reasons why guys go for bitchy girls.

    Susan, thanks for giving us insight into the affects of birthing and caring for infants on sex drive. Its something us child-free people can’t really relate to. I stayed for 2 weeks with my brother and sis in law right after she gave birth and NONE of us slept in that house. I’m pretty sure they didn’t have sex for a whole 6 months at least!

    Some traditional cultures have a sort of sexual quarantine time for a number of weeks and even months after a woman gives birth so that her body and psyche can recover from the ordeal.

    I seem to have a comment addressing Geoff held up in moderation.

  • Höllenhund

    A man consigned to involuntary celibacy is not in quite the same boat as a woman who is being pursued by men she finds attractive. The woman will regularly face temptation.

    So involuntarily celibate men don’t face temptation?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      So involuntarily celibate men don’t face temptation?

      Well I assume they have motive but lack opportunity.

  • Florence

    @ Höllenhund

    I think that what Susan means by ‘involuntary celibacy’ is a situation where a person would love to date or have sex, but is not given the opportunity to because s/he faces rejection by the parties s/he is interested in. Assuming that all men want sex and women decide to whom to give it, those being rejected are therefore consigned to involuntary celibacy.

    I know a guy who is still a virgin in his mid twenties because he can’t get a woman to even date him. He has asked many girls out and faced rejection. In addition, he is absolutely opposed to the idea of sleeping with a woman that he doesn’t find attractive.

  • Badger Nation

    “I’ve always thought that I would refuse to sign a prenup. I understand why a wealthy man would want one, but I figure you take your chances. If you don’t believe in me, let’s not get married. Of course, this strategy only makes sense if you are not hell bent on getting married. I do think, for me at least, entering a marriage with a prenup would put me on guard. It muddies the waters. Some women call this bluff successfully, e.g. Heather Mills. Others lose out. If you’re not after the money, being prepared to walk completely proves it.”

    “I do think, for me at least, entering a marriage with a prenup would put me on guard.”
    .
    Susan, with all due respect this is very solipsistic (but you are not the only woman by any means who has said this). Men have to be “on guard” when they get married, prenup or not. Is it that much to ask of women to give up their right to take their man to the cleaners?
    .
    The fact is that as Forrest Gump said shit happens. People cheat on their spouses, fall in love with other people, get bored, etc etc. It’s not a matter of “trusting” your spouse but having a plan for such a catastrophe. With women filing 70% of divorces I’m not sure what we men are supposed to be trusting anyway. It’s not the woman per se, but the law and divorcees have given us reason to not trust her. if she’s upset about that take it up with the sisterhood.
    .
    “It muddies the waters.”
    .
    Actually it clarifies them. As a consultant you can understand risk management. A prenup clarifies the consequences of divorce, and so I’m willing to wager that in a society of well-constructed prenups, men would file for divorce more often – if they knew exactly what it would cost instead of a long, uncertain and wildly variant process of negotiation and mediation.
    .
    If I were imminently considering getting engaged, I would sit down with the lady and say “OK here’s what’s up. We live under a system where if we got married, and you want to get out and screw me in court, you have a good chance of getting away with it. That’s neither my fault nor your fault, but it’s a power imbalance I’m not comfortable with. I think we should construct an agreement to balance this out.” (It would probably be pretty simple – no alimony except for time spent raising young children, and split retirement accounts.)
    .
    If I got a lot of flack, my response would have to be “your actions show that you care more about preserving your right to take my resources than you do assuaging my anxiety about the system. So you are saying that I shouldn’t trust you because you want to hang on to your ‘right’ to hose me in divorce court.”
    .
    Lest you think this is a joke, I have talked to several women (platonic) about prenups and by the end of the discussion, they’ve made it overtly clear that they DO want the right to f*** their man over, even if she is the one who wants out of the marriage. The Hotel California again.
    .
    As far as “wealthy men” wanting prenups, I think this cultural idea is backwards. Wealthy people’s premarital property is already fairly well-protected by law and court, and in any case they can afford lawyers to keep it that way. It’s people who start out without any real wealth who need to clarify their plan for fair separation of marital property, so that you don’t wind up living in a shack while your ex wife lives it up with a live-in boyfriend in your house with all the money you’ve ever made.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger
      Everything you say makes complete sense. I’ve never been in the situation, obviously, and my knowledge about prenups is pretty much restricted to the sensational accounts of celebrities. I would also support some pretty significant changes in the laws around alimony, but I understand that isn’t happening any time soon. So I suppose a prenup addressing that is the only real alternative available to men. Fair enough.

  • OffTheCuff

    Honestly, if you haven’t lived through having children, you cannot possibly know what it’s like to pull all-nighters with a sick baby.
    .
    True, but I I’m going to go on the record, disagree and say it’s no excuse. I have three kids, one with special needs. One of us is up all night, every night, even though he’s almost 8 years old. It’s very much like having a baby that never grows up. Despite that, we are both on the Athol Kay daily married sex plan – and we’ve been together nearing 20 years. I firmly believe that married sex is a matter of prioritization, and excuses about time or tiredness or kids are all pure bullshit. I fooled myself for too long with this thinking.
    .
    Short of harsh medical problems, if you’re spending the night together, there is time for sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff
      I stand corrected. I really respect what you are doing. I have to agree that there is always time for sex – and by the way, let’s not forget that a 10 minute quickie can be a very good way to get ready for sleep. I guess what I mean is that sex drive can be affected during the childbearing/rearing years, and often is. It’s a very common problem. Athol does give excellent advice, much of which centers on getting the woman to desire rather than comply with sex.

  • Florence

    @ Susan, Geoff

    “The best sex I have ever had was when I was degrading women.” – that is SICK and very disturbing. This man should be arrested LOL

  • Mike C

    He went on to say, “The best sex I have ever had was when I was degrading women.”
    .
    “The best sex I have ever had was when I was degrading women.” – that is SICK and very disturbing.
    .
    @Susan, @ Florence,
    .
    I just read an article the other day WRITTEN BY A WOMAN that speaks to this issue. I’m on the work PC right now, and I’ve got it bookmarked on the home PC so I’ll try to provide the link later (from memory I think the author is Vargas and the article was titled Hard Core).
    .
    Anyways, time for one of those ugly truths. I’d venture for 99.9% of guys that “sluts” are a huge sexual turn on, and degrading sex with sluts an even bigger turn on. Look, us human beings are some twisted creatures with some bizarre base impulses. BOTH women and men have their fair share of pretty twisted stuff. We know women have rape fantasies and are capable of orgasm during rape.
    .
    Of course, what separates us humans from animals is morality, and higher level cognitive function. Doing a line of coke or meth, might be pleasurable, but is ultimately very harmful. I would say character is being able to resist indulging in these base drives when the opportunity exists.
    .
    Anyways, I’ll try to link the article later or alternatively try Googling with the key words above.

  • Geoff 2

    I don’t say emulate Roissy. I say he gives valuable insight to women on how talented alpha men can be at getting women to give up the punani. If you want to think of him as the enemy general, that’s fine–I would agree with that if you’re a woman who wants to retain her virtue and find a good husband. I’m married and returned to the church,(and have no intention of cheating on my wife ever), so obviously I don’t subscribe to Roissy’s philosophy. But as a former member of the “screw every woman on the planet if you can” committee, I admire Roissy’s tactical skill and insights.
    /
    As Sun Tzu said, know your enemy (Roissy), know yourself (this is the tricky part for women, I think), and all battles are won before they are even fought.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      I say he gives valuable insight to women on how talented alpha men can be at getting women to give up the punani.

      Yes, I would certainly agree with this. I suppose it’s instructive to see what a complete and total douchebag acts like.

  • Florence

    @ Badger:
    If I were imminently considering getting engaged, I would sit down with the lady.[....]I think we should construct an agreement to balance this out.” (It would probably be pretty simple – no alimony except for time spent raising young children, and split retirement accounts.)

    -Good luck with getting a woman to agree with such terms. I know I wouldn’t. Check my previous arguments about the decreased ability of a woman to remarry, etc…Depending on my own income in comparison to yours I will either agree to no alimony or try to negotiate some reasonable alimony.

  • Florence

    @ Mike C

    “BOTH women and men have their fair share of pretty twisted stuff. We know women have rape fantasies and are capable of orgasm during rape.”

    There are women who really like the idea of being “ravaged” by a strong man and there are man who like to feel that they are raping a woman by choking her, causing her some pain, etc. These are fetishes and I am fine with them as long as both parties are interested in them.

    However, when a man says that he likes sex because it was specifically degrading to women, that implies that he didn’t care about the woman in question and was trying to satisfy himself only. Sounds almost like sexual abuse.

  • Badger Nation

    Florence,
    .
    “-Good luck with getting a woman to agree with such terms. I know I wouldn’t. Check my previous arguments about the decreased ability of a woman to remarry, etc…Depending on my own income in comparison to yours I will either agree to no alimony or try to negotiate some reasonable alimony.”
    .
    Sounds like your argument is based in vengeful spite? “I can’t get remarried so you have to fund my lifestyle after the divorce.” Philosophically, what gives you the right to your ex-husband’s income?
    .
    Women want to insist on holding all the cards – man asks, pays for the date, buys the expensive ring, pays for her if she decides she’s bored and wants to fu** somebody else – and then turn around and whine there aren’t men interested in commitment. I say lay in the bed you make.
    .
    I am serious about this: women might do well to realize that in today’s climate marriage is a less attractive option for men who can get many of the benefits without it, and so men hold more and more of the cards when it comes to getting married – men are the gatekeepers of commitment, as it is said. And some men have decided marriage is off the table entirely. It’s not all of them and it never will be, but it’s likely to become harder, not easier, for women to find men who enthusiastically want to marry them.

  • Badger Nation

    “However, when a man says that he likes sex because it was specifically degrading to women, that implies that he didn’t care about the woman in question and was trying to satisfy himself only. Sounds almost like sexual abuse.”
    .
    I don’t get it. How is a man saying he likes to dominate women in bed any different than a woman saying she likes to be dominated in bed?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      How is a man saying he likes to dominate women in bed any different than a woman saying she likes to be dominated in bed?

      1. Domination /= Degradation
      2. Lack of feeling, caring or concern for one’s partner’s physical well-being implies selfishness at best. Getting off on seeing them wince with pain is sadism, unless the person has specifically consented to or requested such treatment. Actually, that’s still sadism. Either way, this was not the case in Roissy’s example.

  • Florence

    @ Badger

    “Sounds like your argument is based in vengeful spite?
    – You started it. You sat me down here, trying to turn our marriage into some kind of a financial contract, disrespecting me by doubting my love towards you. I am not getting married to get divorced. If an eventual divorce occurs, let the law decide what each party deserves.

    “I can’t get remarried so you have to fund my lifestyle after the divorce.” Philosophically, what gives you the right to your ex-husband’s income?”
    – I gave birth to your (or our) kids. As a result I do not have the sexy hip-to-waste ratio as before marrying. Your body, however is intact. After a divorce, you will likely remarry, while I may be destined to a sexless, miserable and lonely life for the rest it. This is simply unfair and I need to be compensated for it.

    – It really depends on what your income is in comparison to mine to what terms and conditions I’d agree to. If your income is disproportionally larger than mine, I’d demand a lot more. If it is close to mine, smaller or equal, then I don’t care for an alimony.

    @Badger

    “I don’t get it. How is a man saying he likes to dominate women in bed any different than a woman saying she likes to be dominated in bed?”

    -It has to do with the fact that a man is physically stronger than a woman and has the ability to inflict more pain/damage.

    “[...]as she winced with pain during anal sex.” [....], “The best sex I have ever had was when I was degrading women.”

    What these statements imply is that this Rossy guy gets off by watching others suffer. I think that’s sick, but I see sex as a mutual expression of love, where both parties care for each other, ensuring the act is enjoyable for both.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wait, what is going on? Are Florence and Badger a couple? Or is Florence speaking theoretically?

  • Mike C

    @Florence

    - You started it. You sat me down here, trying to turn our marriage into some kind of a financial contract, disrespecting me by doubting my love towards you. I am not getting married to get divorced. If an eventual divorce occurs, let the law decide what each party deserves.
    .
    Hmmmmm…HOW CONVENIENT given the current legal system. Look, you seem like you are probably a genuine person with good intentions.
    .
    That said, what Badger said and how he presented really is eminently reasonable. Look at Susan’s response to Badger compared to yours. The problem is the sense of entitlement that really reeks and permeates your responses
    .
    “After a divorce, you will likely remarry, while I may be destined to a sexless, miserable and lonely life for the rest it. This is simply unfair and I need to be compensated for it.”
    .
    Honestly, this right here is absolutely what any savvy guy contemplating marriage is absolutely terrified of. This attitude right here. My GF is starting to push the marriage thing hard, I don’t have enough assets to warrant a prenup, but I have done my best to sort of screen for any inklings of this type of attitude:
    .
    “I did my JOB, I had your kids, now I am entitled to some portion of your assets and money forever”. Viscerally, it really just disgusts most men, this attitude.
    .
    If your income is disproportionally larger than mine, I’d demand a lot more. “
    .
    Because I am entitled to live in the manner I have become accustomed to. Again, and this is why guys wonder if they are just a meal ticket provider.

  • Mike C

    @ Susan,
    .
    Being a MBA I think you’ll relate to this point as well. If we are talking about M&A (mergers @ acquisitions) and two companies agree to merge, the “Break-Up” Fee is negotiated and agreed upon in advance, not decided after the fact.
    .
    I don’t want to go off on a tangent here, but we know that women file for divorce the majority of time. Sure, there are legimitate cases of drug and alchohol abuse, spousal abuse, etc. We also know there are a substantial number of bullshit reasons “I’m not in love with you anymore”, “I need to find myself”, and other assorted crock of shit reasons. I’d bet my last dollar in 90% of those case where the woman files for divorce, she was the one pushing the marriage commitment issue in the first place.
    .
    Really, as Badger put it, for a guy with a ton of assets, is it too much to ask to relinquish your right to take him to the cleaners.
    .
    Anyways, guys are getting smarter and savvier about these types of issues. I’m 37 and I think Badger is still in his 20s I think. He has a level of understanding I completely lacked at his age. I’m seeing 19-22 year old guys post stuff that just blows my mind thinking about absolutely naive I was at that age. I think it was the women’s movement that said the “personal is the political”. With men, it is the opposite, “the political will become the personal”. Guys will make personal decisions that have broader impact, and it really is thanks to the information and communication made available on the Internet that they don’t have to go through life blind and dumb.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      If a person chooses a course of action only because they lack information, their commitment is compromised by definition. It is in women’s best interest for men to be fully informed and make careful decisions accordingly. Of course the same applies to women.

  • Florence

    @ Mike C

    By doing my job and having your kids, I compromised my beauty and therefore marriageability chances. Why does it seem so unfair for men to accept that? You know how important looks are for a woman to have.

    As a woman in grad school, I hope that money won’t be such a big issue for me and therefor won’t have to go through this negotiation BS. Simply divide what we have bought/earned together 50/50 would be enough for me. If I initiate the divorce because I didn’t love you anymore, then you can have ur money, just make sure your kids are provided for.

    The truth is that today’s world is still quite unfair to women, even in the most developed countries like the US. That means that for exactly the same education and job, women earn about 35% less than men. One reason for that is women do not negotiate enough during an interview process; they are simply more likely to accept a lower number than a man is. I seriously think that universities should introduce “negotiation courses for women” in universities.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence

      That means that for exactly the same education and job, women earn about 35% less than men.

      Do you have a link for this claim? From the reading I’ve done, the wage gap is largely explained by female choice. That is, the choice to have children and devote considerable time to family. It’s fair and economically efficient to pay based on perceived long-term contribution. Very few women rise through the ranks without taking time for childbirth and parenting. And we tend to make choices that reflect our priorities. The wage gap reflects that.
      .
      Also this:

      By doing my job and having your kids, I compromised my beauty and therefore marriageability chances.

      First, I reject the claim that you compromised your beauty. Why do you say that? Because you lost your six pack? Many men find pregnancy and motherhood makes their wives even more beautiful.
      .
      Second, why on earth are you talking about marriageability to some future bloke when you are preparing to marry? Forget this notion of the first marriage. Do it right, and do it once! If you select carefully for character, and bring your full effort to your marriage, it’s not really so hard to stay married.

  • Geoff 2

    Maybe Mike C and Florence could compromise, and agree on a pre-nup that stipulates there is no reward for seeking a divorce for “boredom” or likewise.
    /
    If the wife seeks divorce without agreement of the husband, she gets zilch (absent some evidence of him being unfaithful or physically abusive).
    /
    If the husband seeks divorce without her consent (absent some evidence of her being unfaithful and/or BMI above 30), she gets a nice chunk of change.

  • Florence

    @ Badger
    I am serious about this: women might do well to realize that in today’s climate marriage is a less attractive option for men [...] but it’s likely to become harder, not easier, for women to find men who enthusiastically want to marry them.

    – I think that this is wrong. There are plenty of men interested in marriage. Problem is that we want the ones who make equal or more money than we make. They are the ones that are scarce for women with higher education.

  • Florence

    @ Susan

    Hahaha no. Just for fun, I decided to present my comment as if it were a real situation Lol.

    But seriously, if I were a man looking to marry and not wanting to get screwed over money, I’d look for a reasonably good looking woman with high money earning potential, because it is the dumb, educated-less pretty bimbos that men marry and get screwed by.

  • OffTheCuff

    At the risk of repeating myself, I believe this meme is grossly exaggerated. Yes, it happens. However, I believe that the women who have “ridden Alpha cock” through their 20s is no more than 20% of the female population, and most of those will not seek marriage with a beta male. They’ll hold out forever for the Alpha guy, since they don’t need a provider.

    Then how do you explain:

    I know plenty of women with pretty robust sexual pasts who have been faithful to their husbands for 20+ years.

    It seems to contradict. If “most” of these 20% of women do not marry a beta, then how do you know so many of them?
    .
    Extra credit: not to mention, you really don’t know if they are cheating or not. Personally, I know at least two women who *are* cheating on her husbands, and they haven’t told any of their girlfriends, only me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OffTheCuff
      It isn’t a contradiction. Pretty robust sexual past is not the same thing as having ridden the alpha cock carousel. I’m on record as saying my own number hit double digits, but only one of those men was alpha. Although beta guys get a lot less sex than alphas, on average, plenty of them do get girlfriends, or hook up sometimes. Also, the idea of “riding a carousel” implies being completely indiscriminate other than selecting for alpha traits. A woman who has truly done this is likely to have a very, very high number in this day and age. For example, feminists defended Karen Owens on the basis of her number being 13, as illustrated in her Power Point. However, her F List was just the cream of the crop. She apparently had sex with many, many other men who didn’t make the final cut for the presentation. Part of the problem here is that we’re lumping together all beta guys, as if that 80% was similar. They’re not – there’s a lot of variation in there re getting with women.
      .
      Also, women having sex with alphas don’t all behave the same way. Some go crazy as mentioned above, others have a few hookups with alpha types during college. Some have a very promiscuous period, and then calm down, or “reform.” And many prefer guys not in that 20% of alphas, though as I said, that doesn’t mean they prefer guys across the spectrum in the other 80%.
      .
      The women I know who married betas are probably beta females themselves, and dated beta guys traditionally. It’s largely assortative mating – docs marrying docs, lawyers marrying lawyers, etc. Many of them met in grad school. I will say one thing, though – it’s possible that these husbands didn’t all come from the same 18 yo cohort. Perhaps some of them are alphas who matured and settled down with a good woman. Perhaps some of them came into their own in their mid-late 20s. Hard to say. All of them have good social skills at this point. Keep in mind that my peers – say aged 40-60 – dated at least 20 years ago. That was a very different SMP.

  • Geoff 2

    To the women claiming men don’t want a virgin, let me offer up some food for thought. The benefit to a man of marrying a virgin is she OBVIOUSLY has exhibited SOME control of her base impulses in search of a satisfying, loving marriage.
    /
    Why wouldn’t men just shrug and say “well, I screwed around in college, she screwed around in college, but now we’ll be married and faithful to each other”? Because the “married but looking” or “in a relationship but looking” female population is HUGE at
    /
    http://www.ashleymadison.com.
    /
    That website is a man’s walking nightmare if he’s married and faithful, and a freaking THEME PARK ride if he’s not. I suspect there are few if any women there who were virgins when they married and a lot of sluts. There are a plethora of studies showing that a woman with only 2 sexual partners before marriage is WAY more likely to cheat than a virgin. I’m happily surprised there are any men at all in America still willing to marry, given current society.

  • Badger Nation

    Florence,
    .
    I must admit I wasn’t expecting your rationalization hamster to produce such an airtight justification of entitlement. You “deserve to be compensated”? F that sideways. Why is it women are always blaming men for their problems and asking courts to “make the big bad man stop?” We know women file 70% of divorces, and Dalrock has shown that most of those are not filed for “fault” reasons, so women like you just want the system set up so you can get paid for the privilege of ditching your husband. And the idea of limiting that privilege in any way is anathema. It’s all about YOU and what YOU are entitled to, and shows zero empathy or sympathy for men. You’ve admitted it, you actually like the system where men get screwed.
    .
    Spare me the “you took my best years” argument. It’s women who want to GET married and want to have children, and then when they want to divorce they turn it around and act like marriage is a burden for women, they say “I GAVE UP my career to have YOUR children!”
    .
    It’s bullshit. Total have-it-both-ways-cake-and-eat-it bullshit.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For the record, I just want to say that I think boredom is not a legitimate reason to turn a man’s life upside down. If you have children, even less so. If you are bored in your marriage, figure out why and then work on it. If your husband works a ton or is otherwise not amenable to change, pursue your own interests and make your life more interesting.
      .
      I will say that if my husband cheated on me, I would divorce him. Divorce is terrible, but infidelity is cause enough, IMO. And it goes without saying that I would expect him to leave me if I was the one who cheated.

  • Badger Nation

    “- I think that this is wrong. There are plenty of men interested in marriage. Problem is that we want the ones who make equal or more money than we make. They are the ones that are scarce for women with higher education.”
    .
    Do you know a lot of women with multiple proposals on their docket? I admit I know some girls who collect proposals like merit badges, for whatever reason they date a lot of men who want to get married, but I doubt that is typical.
    .
    I’m guessing an average girl dates one, maybe two men who seriously consider marrying her. That’s not a lot; if one of them walks out because he sees an entitled attitude, she just cut her pool in half. Even men who want to get married have considerable leverage to walk and find someone more sympathetic to their situation.

  • karen

    I think that some women on here are trying to justify a high number of sexual partners by saying that it shouldn’t matter. Well then, looks shouldn’t matter either and a 300 pound female with bad acne should have the same dating opportunities as an attractive female. Look, the guys on here are just being honest and I really appreciate that. Some guys are attracted to blondes, some to brunettes, and some to females with a low number of sexual partners. Personally, the only female I know with a high number of sexual partners (30) constantly lies to guys about the number and claims to have had only 3 partners. I really doubt that females with high numbers of sexual partners have been honest with their husbands about the number of partners. I find it very hypocritical for women to say that men shouldn’t judge women based on the number of men they have slept with when these same women judge men on factors such as salary, looks, height, etc. Everybody I know has some dealbreakers when it comes to dating and partners for LTRs. That is just life.

  • OffTheCuff

    That makes sense. It seems that that “ACC” is of a pejorative term not conducive to actual discussion. It provokes too much on indignance from women, and surely is used hyperbolically by bitter men for less serious overages.
    .
    However: a woman in double-digit numbers is far over the lifetime median partner count, to which I understand is three, correct? To a beta chump looking for marriage, the difference between “a robust past with a partner count far above the median” (which is LOT of syllables) and “riding the ACC” is of little matter. They’re both the same. What matters is he was spurned while everyone else was having their fun. But now that they’re done, he’s the consolation prize.

  • 108spirits

    You know, recently I had thoughts of serious relationships and possibly marriage (a blue pill relapse, if you will). However, after reading comments from women of the blogosphere for the last few months and seeing how entitled they are and their complete disregard for the enormous risks men have to face in relationships & marriage (even from the supposedly “good” girls), I’ve changed my mind. Thanks!

  • Passer_By

    ” think that this is wrong. There are plenty of men interested in marriage. Problem is that we want the ones who make equal or more money than we make. They are the ones that are scarce for women with higher education.”

    Make less money. Problem solved.

  • Lurky Lu

    @karen “I think that some women on here are trying to justify a high number of sexual partners by saying that it shouldn’t matter.”

    Very few women who comment here are justifying high numbers or saying that they shouldn’t matter, although some are justly pointing out the hypocrisy of guys who judge and condemn women with high numbers, if those guys have high numbers themselves (esp. if they’ve been overlooking the women with lower numbers while they sow wild oats with the high number gals).

    I think the original line of discussion was about how high is too high, which is a fair question because there many guys who define a slut as someone who has slept with someone other than himself. It’s a difficult issue to discuss because it taps into the base fear that men universally have about being cuckolded, as well as the base fear that women universally have about being thought of as “not nice”.

  • Lurky Lu

    @Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c)
    “Almost NO women and precious few men as well have been willing to assist in seeing justice done.”

    What’s sad here is that many women (especially second wives) are supportive of MRA issues once they hear a rational, reasonable rundown on what men are up against. Unfortunately, the PANs of the manosphere don’t realize that much like their feminazi sisters, they are their own worst enemies.

  • terre

    Mike C, don’t bother with prenups. They get completely shredded in court, they’re entirely useless in any case. I’d strongly, strongly, triple strongly advise avoiding marriage altogether. Just put it this way: what’ll be different for you and your girl after you’ve gotten married?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d strongly, strongly, triple strongly advise avoiding marriage altogether.

      This advice is not appropriate to HUS. I understand where you’re coming from, but come on. Women and some guys come here to discuss relationships, the SMP, sex, etc. and most of them hope to marry. I’m a strong defender of marriage, and I believe that a good marriage creates an entirely different kind of relationship dynamic that cohabitation does not. It’s fair to discuss and explore why men are cautious about marriage, but I don’t want to play a role in dissuading men from that commitment.

  • terre

    Florence, it’s ironic that you should accuse Mike C of reducing marriage to some kind of transaction and then go on to say that you “deserve compensation” (?) because you’ve “sacrificed your beauty” or something. At least Mike was just being cautious; you make it sound like the coldest flea market in the universe.

  • Mike C

    Mike C, don’t bother with prenups. They get completely shredded in court, they’re entirely useless in any case. I’d strongly, strongly, triple strongly advise avoiding marriage altogether. Just put it this way: what’ll be different for you and your girl after you’ve gotten married?
    .
    Appreciate the words but like I said I don’t have enough assets presently to warrant a prenup in the first place. To your last point, in my mind, not too much, especially as we have decided not to have children, BUT after a certain amount of time women want that marriage commitment. We’ve been together 5 years.
    .
    I’m not really concerned. The future is unpredictable, but I have a great number of reasons to know she isn’t after any riches that I may make in the future. The biggest thing is guys really need to screen and shit test girls hard to figure out what they believe. Most guys make the ultimate commitment with a high degree of ignorance about what the girl believes. In most cases, they’ll tell you especially if you ask right, and in the ones really trying to deceive, they’ll eventually show their cards if you call their bluff. Just as an example, and this isn’t intended to offend, but just this little exchange I was able to ascertain what Florence believes and she would go into the “never marry her” pile.
    .
    Another example. My GF got the Eat-Live-Pray movie from Redbox, not really knowing what it was about. I told her what it was about, what my thoughts were, and asked her opinion. She thought it was terrible a woman would abandon a marriage like that. If you had a GF, and use that as a point of discussion, and she says “I don’t know, sometimes people just have to move on when they aren’t feeling it” then you know right away to throw her into the “never marry her” pile.

  • terre

    That’s true. Part of me is even a little skeptical of all the high numbers (70% of divorces, no child custody, alimony etc.) that get tossed around in game/MRA circles. The difference is that I’m not willing to take the risk to find out; even if only half or even less of divorces were female-initiated, you couldn’t get me to take the plunge. You’re completely right that you can pretty easily screen for girls likely to flake (and not even just for marriage), but in my experience that’s been almost every girl I’ve ever met.

  • karen

    @Lurky Lu,
    That is just it. Some guys will be fine with a female who has had 10 sexual partners while others will be bothered by it. I don’t see any hypocrisy on the part of men. Many women don’t care how many women a man has slept with. A man’s salary is more important to many women than the number of sexual partners. I’ve never known a man to not consider a female for a LTR or marriage because she had a low salary. However, I have known women who would not even consider dating a guy if he had a low salary or did not work in a prestigious job. How many women do you know who would consider a male janitor for a LTR or marriage? I sure don’t know any. Men will overlook a low salary but not the number of sexual partners. Women will overlook the number of sexual partners but not a low salary. Men and women value different things when it comes to seeking long term partners. Just because many women don’t care about how many women a particular man has slept with doesn’t mean that a man should feel the same way. In fact, I know a certain female who was in fact proud that her then-boyfriend had slept with over a 100 women before her. She felt that meant she was some kind of prize because he had made her his girlfriend.

  • Lurky Lu

    “Some guys will be fine with a female who has had 10 sexual partners while others will be bothered by it. I don’t see any hypocrisy on the part of men.”

    I think it would be hypocrisy (but nevertheless his perogative) for a guy who’s had 10 or more partners to be bothered by a female with 10 sexual partners. Just as I think it’s hypocrisy for a woman who makes only 40k to reject a guy because he only makes 40k, but you’re right that both sexes want different things from each other and it’s up to the individual to work out their own priorities as to what they are looking for in a mate. Actually, I wish women would be more wary of men with high numbers and lot’s of P & D’s in their background. Just imagine if both sexes demanded more scruples from each other! There’d be less single parent families, less welfare, less crime. Mind you, population levels would drop to the point where old people would be starving in the streets or warehoused.

  • Plain Jane

    Women should be MORE wary of male-sluts than men of female-sluts because STDs are generally transmitted more from men to women than the other way around.

    There needs to be more man-ho shaming.

    Nonethless, I can’t expect a virgin groom unless I join an anti-sex religious cult. But I am aiming for a man who’s not had more than 3 past partners and if Roissy is to be believed, most beta guys are virgins or close-to anyway, so I won’t have a problem. It’s just getting them attracted to me that’s the issue…………………?

  • Lavazza

    Susan: “Well, this sounds quite favorable for women! In general, I get the impression that women have the upper hand in Sweden.”

    I am not sure what you are referring to. I studied in Uppsala which is not a city where many people can stay after graduating. Being the Northernmost university (at the time) most people would come from smaller cities and towns across the country to study there. In many fields graduates would have to go to work in different smaller cities or towns to gain experience. People would see their friends from high school who did not go to uni forming couples at an early age and see the single’s scene having a cut-off at a very young age in their home towns, so they knew that the choices where either to get into a stable couple in uni or make sure that you will be able to find an employer in Stockholm, where the singles scene go on for much higher ages.

  • Florence

    The only reasons I would file for a divorce are:
    1) He cheated on me
    2) He became an alcoholic
    3) He turned into a total sloth – stopped working, relying on me to play all the bills, never helped with housework and kids
    4)He stopped having sex with me
    5) Physical abuse

    For other issues such as boredom, lack of love, etc, I think that a person can do a lot to spice things up.

    @ Mice C
    It looks a bit like you are fishing for possible things that specifically feed your insecurities and disregard everything else. If your gf has spent 5 years of her life with you and has established her position on wanting to marry YOU among other guys, that means nothing to you. But you put so much value on one statement that she’s made about a movie. She was right, actually, a marriage is not something that locks two ppl until death. People are different and people change when they grow older. Nothing is certain in this world, so enjoy what you have now and stop worrying about tomorrow so much.

  • terre

    Florence, most Christian marriages still contain “till death do us part” in the vows.

  • Florence

    @ Susan
    I will get back to you on the stats. You might be right though. My info may be outdated.

    “Second, why on earth are you talking about marriageability to some future bloke when you are preparing to marry? Forget this notion of the first marriage. Do it right, and do it once!”
    – I absolutely agree, Mrs. Walsh. I was only trying to contradict readers who claim that men have “so much more to lose” by entering into a marriage. The differences are that men are concerned with the financial loss; women are concerned with the loss of happiness, stress and anger, and emotional pain, and worsen quality of life.

    “If you select carefully for character, and bring your full effort to your marriage, it’s not really so hard to stay married.”
    -You know that we’re all trying our best to “select carefully” but that only works in theory. You never know what to expect down the road, even if you make the best decision with the information you have about this person. Not to mention, that as some male readers have pointed out, women have a limited time window to select a potential partner because of the biological clock issue. Being busy with work makes it even harder.

    “First, I reject the claim that you compromised your beauty. Why do you say that? Because you lost your six pack? Many men find pregnancy and motherhood makes their wives even more beautiful.”

    – I agree that pregnant women are beautiful and feminine to their husbands, Mrs Walsh. However, I was not referring to the situation in which a divorce occurs because a man no longer finds his wife attractive. I was speaking in general terms – in the event of a divorce for any reason, a woman who has delivered 2-3 children probably will not be as attractive to other men compared to a younger woman who has had 0 children. However, a man’s body would be intact, given that he takes good care of himself and he would most likely be at the peak of his career and therefor, an attractive catch to other women. Can you imagine the emotional pain some women experience after a divorce by watching their husbands remarry, have kids again, while they can’t remarry because they aren’t as good looking anymore and they cannot have children anymore. In addition, being ‘empty-nested’ makes it even harder. I guess biology didn’t make if fair for women, but men on this forum are not concerned about that. All they seem concerned about is their money.

    – In my previous post I mentioned the reasons, why I’d file for divorce. In the situation that I file for divorce because a man cheated on me, then he’d still be in a better position than I would be. He’d go marry his mistress and live a happy life, while I’d be left with the emotional pain and yes a lower chance for being able to remarry. Actually, a lot of women, if they have small children, tend to close their eyes on their husband’s affairs. We both know why.

    Men cheat more often than women in a marriage (22% compared to 15%).
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17951664/ns/health-sexual_health/

    Men are more likely to cheat on a woman who earns more than them and to a woman who earns much less than them according to FORBES.
    http://blogs.forbes.com/maryellenegan/2010/08/16/men-more-likely-to-cheat-on-a-woman-who-earns-more/

  • filrabat

    @filrabat

    filrabat: it was not too much of an emotional leap for me to do without a wife or even a GF. Besides, I discovered I’m happier alone anyway, and that was that.

    Susan:Hmmm, this surprises me, because you seem very tuned into relationship dynamics. It’s clear you have an interest and some fluency with the subject matter. Are you sure you wouldn’t like a partner?

    Sorry for not getting back to you sooner about this one.

    My post in the “Do Pretty Girls Have it Harder” thread (December 31, 2010 at 5:56 pm) gives a lot of clues — not the least of these is my libido cooing down/ “male hormone fog” lifting considerably by my late 20s – as in enough for me to form a sober, serious assessment about whether I really want to be a husband (I was already committed childfree for a few years before I decided on permanent bachelorhood). In summary, value my peace, quiet, and freedom more than anything else, and felt so for the past 13 years or so. Heck, I don’t even want a household pet!

    As for the “why” I’m so interested in this – it’s mainly because I want to share what I learned over the years about relationships and sexual relationship dynamics – mediated by my personal experience and evaluations gathered from other message boards about relationship issues. In doing so, I hope to bring clarity to others struggling with relationship issues (a central concern for the majority of people), therefore making their lives a bit easier and happier. Of course much of what I write is something I wish I knew in my younger days, but didn’t learn because the world wide web wasn’t available back in those days. Today, there is a real chance for people to gain more clarity about this issue, and so I hope to contribute my own perspective to the matter.

  • terre

    This advice is not appropriate to HUS. I understand where you’re coming from, but come on. Women and some guys come here to discuss relationships, the SMP, sex, etc. and most of them hope to marry. I’m a strong defender of marriage, and I believe that a good marriage creates an entirely different kind of relationship dynamic that cohabitation does not. It’s fair to discuss and explore why men are cautious about marriage, but I don’t want to play a role in dissuading men from that commitment.

    That seems very censorious and a little patronizing of you, Susan. I apparently have more faith in the ability of men (or women for that matter) to come to their own conclusions when reading what I write than yourself. Of course, it is your blog, and feel free to do with it as you will.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre
      Look, I am hardly censorious, and I truly try to accommodate all, or nearly all points of view, barring violence. But giving someone a triple warning never to marry is just over the line, IMO. If a man is capable of coming to his own conclusions, why the need to warn him three times over? The truth is that 78% of college males definitively state that they want to marry. That is the lowest the number has ever been, but it still makes you an outlier, especially since the other 22% includes undecideds.

  • terre

    I also have to say I’m surprised that you think “most of [the blog commentators] hope to marry”, since my impression has been that the urban women who come here find marriage antiquated or cute and the men disinterested. Am I wildly off base?

  • Badger Nation

    “Mike C, don’t bother with prenups. They get completely shredded in court, they’re entirely useless in any case”
    .
    terre makes a good point…for all the talk about prenups, they can be circumvented in several ways. Tom Leykis sings the praises of his prenups (he had four divorces), but as a socially-smooth and accomplished radio host, he no doubt chose excellent attorneys to get him a good shake in court.
    .
    My uncle, a tax attorney, took a different tack in his divorces – he simply shielded his assets so they couldn’t be gotten by the court.
    .
    But the prenup as a philosophical discussion is illuminating; it tells if a woman is more concerned about giving her husband confidence she won’t use the system against him, or with maintaining her power advantage in divorce court. A woman who refuses to even recognize how stacked the system is, is one I have to question as to suitability for marriage. A prenup supposedly says the guy doesn’t “trust” the woman. What do you call giving someone a loaded gun pointed at your wallet and asking them not to shoot? I can’t think of a word but “trust” is not it. “F’d up prisoner’s dilemma” might be better. For the record, I’m a big supporter of the ideal of marriage, but the legal institution of marriage is unbelievable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But the prenup as a philosophical discussion is illuminating; it tells if a woman is more concerned about giving her husband confidence she won’t use the system against him, or with maintaining her power advantage in divorce court.

      There is another, more basic reason women don’t like prenups. They destroy romance. I understand perfectly why men find it necessary, but women feel disappointed that such matters need to be haggled over in anticipation of marriage. Of course, many cultures arrange marriages, pay dowries, etc. so monetary negotiation is nothing new. However, the concept is foreign and disappointing to American women raised on romantic notions.
      .
      Second, the prenup is insurance against a wife’s misbehavior. Again, while this may be very practical, it does by definition cast some doubt on the woman’s character and/or intentions. I think it would be hard not to take this personally.
      .
      Third, most women are completely uninformed about the lopsided nature of the laws around divorce. Nearly all would be completely perplexed by your claim that the legal institution of marriage is “unbelievable.” In fact, I’d bet that many men are too. The fact is, most people don’t anticipate divorce or plan for it when marrying. It wouldn’t surprise me if negotiating these matters up front actually reduced long-term commitment, at least slightly. Anything that makes it easier to walk away/dissolve the marriage must increase the likelihood of the occurrence.
      .
      As I said yesterday, I understand where you are coming from on this issue. That doesn’t mean it’s pleasant, or that women will ever view it as a neutral transaction. I’m genuinely glad I never had to deal with the issue, I would have found it very unpleasant.

  • Badger Nation

    “Another example. My GF got the Eat-Live-Pray movie from Redbox, not really knowing what it was about. I told her what it was about, what my thoughts were, and asked her opinion. She thought it was terrible a woman would abandon a marriage like that. If you had a GF, and use that as a point of discussion, and she says “I don’t know, sometimes people just have to move on when they aren’t feeling it” then you know right away to throw her into the “never marry her” pile.”
    .
    That’s what I try to do as well, test with third-party examples to see where her baseline beliefs are.
    .
    Even that can be a real difficult test, because people’s beliefs have a feeling of changing when it’s them in the ring. A woman can feel one way philosophically about an issue, then change her mind when her sister/mother/”best friend” wants to blow the mailman/walk out on her husband/ask for crushing alimony/etc, then feel a different way again when she is facing the issue firsthand. Hamsters are strong creatures, they can turn one’s principles upside down in a minute when self-interest is involved.
    .
    I find in particular when a friend gets into a jam is a big test, because that shows if she’s more committed to her social bonds or to what’s right.

  • karen

    @Florence,

    There are plenty of women out there today who are overweight and considered unattractive and many of these women have never had children. It is really hard for me to believe that because a woman had children, she will probably not remarry because her body is now ruined. I believe that it is more likely that the woman probably has not taken care of her body, is no longer 20 years old, and many men don’t want to marry a woman who has children from a previous relationship. I myself have been advised against dating men who have children. A friend of my mother met this wonderful handsome man and was ready to marry him until she found out he had a child from a previous relationship. She dumped him and went on to marry another guy a few years later. She said she just couldn’t handle the fact that he already had a child. On another forum that I frequent, some of the single dads have commented that dating is hard for them because many women don’t want to be involved with men who already have children. So it cuts both ways, single fathers also have trouble with LTRs.

  • terre

    I have to say I’ve never been able to tell if a woman’s had children before or not, at least not solely via gauging her physique.

  • Geoff 2

    At the risk of a lifetime ban from HUS, I offer this up to the women reading:
    /
    The only way to hook up “smart” before marriage is to not hook up at all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff
      First, I hate banning people, and do it only to the nastiest, most unpleasant commenters, or those that consistently derail threads. I think I’ve banned 3 men and 3 women from HUS in two years. I’d never ban you for having a difference of opinion.
      .
      Second, keep in mind that “hooking up” is a phrase that runs the gamut from one kiss to penetration. It depends on where you live, I suppose, but I believe that most men would have zero interest in a woman who got to her mid-20s without ever having been kissed. Again, if you are in the Bible belt, this is likely to be different, and the age of marriage is likely to be lower.
      .
      There are men who feel the way that you do, and hopefully are able to find women who meet their criteria. However, for those of us in large, urban centers, that prescription is just not realistic.

  • Sox

    The only way to hook up “smart” before marriage is to not hook up at all.
    .
    Can’t say I agree with this….just like I don’t have problems with women having a regular amount of sex, even a one night stand or two. This thread sure brought out some strong opinions.

  • Mike C

    @ Florence,
    .
    It looks a bit like you are fishing for possible things that specifically feed your insecurities and disregard everything else.
    .
    I’m going to assume you are being genuine here, and not just throwing in the “insecurities” word as an attempt at manipulative shaming language. It has nothing to with “feeding my insecurities”, but it has to do with making sure the proper due diligence has been conducted. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m a stock market/investment guy and two of my investment heroes who are extremely wealthy men, have both said the single most important decision in life is the decision on whom to marry. It has the power to dramatically help you or turn your life into a living hell. Unfortunately, for many men it is too often the latter.
    .
    Look, I’ve been married before. That marriage lasted 10 months before the final divorce decree. I came home one day from work 5 months into it, and she said “I don’t think this is working and I am leaving”, and packed her stuff and left. Interestingly, she came back twice in the subsequent 3 months wanting to “try again”. I’m 99.9% sure she cheated on me during the marriage. She was my first serious girlfriend and the girl I lost my virginity to at age 22 (I was the ultimate AFC in high school and college). Looking back now, I am ecstatic that it worked out that way, because if I was still married to her I have no doubt my life would be hell and misery. I shudder at the thought that I might have had children with her. I dodged a huge bullet.
    .
    Why did I marry her? That has a complex answer. But no doubt about it, I did not properly vet her character, what she really believed the institution of marriage entailed, and what being a wife meant. Way, way, way, way, way, way ,way, way too many women want to be BRIDES, but not WIVES. They are cancers to be avoided. You can only identify the healthy cell from the cancerous cell through extensive testing.
    .
    If your gf has spent 5 years of her life with you and has established her position on wanting to marry YOU among other guys, that means nothing to you.
    .
    First, you aren’t inside my head, so you can’t know that means “nothing” to me. Second, this is an interesting statement because the subtext to this really is she is the prize to be won by me, and also reveals that you see women as the prize to be won. Now don’t get me wrong, I love my GF deeply, I am very lucky to have a wonderful woman like her. That said, in the current SMP, the fact of the matter is attractive, ambitious, intelligent men willing to commit are the scarce resource. And for the attractive guy with options, vaj is in abundance. So really, in terms of marriage, the guy is the prize to be won, not the other way around. And I would say to any guy, especially any guy who has his shit together to really internalize that philosophy of “I am the prize”.
    .
    But you put so much value on one statement that she’s made about a movie.
    .
    I’m hoping you aren’t that obtuse. That was a single example to demonstrate a point. The point is to use those types of examples, subjects, as fodder for discussion to try and determine what someone’s core beliefs are about marriage and being a wife. Like I said, just in our little exchange here you have revealed a lot about how you perceive the institution and role. There are guys who propose and marry knowing less about their fiancee then I know about you just from our conversation here. I know because that was me the first go around. That said, life is uncertain, and Badger’s points are correct that people change, and sometimes one’s core principles in the abstract don’t mesh perfectly when it is them or friends and family in the situation
    .
    She was right, actually, a marriage is not something that locks two ppl until death. People are different and people change when they grow older.
    .
    Yup, and that is all fine and dandy. If that is the case though, then let’s go our separate ways without you expecting “compensation” for the “job” you did just because you think you can’t “land” a “position” that is comparable. If you “grow out of the marriage” then fine, just don’t try to extract as much out of me as you possibly can on the way out the door. But again, the current legal system is set up to allow….no encourage this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Look, I’ve been married before. That marriage lasted 10 months before the final divorce decree. I came home one day from work 5 months into it, and she said “I don’t think this is working and I am leaving”, and packed her stuff and left. Interestingly, she came back twice in the subsequent 3 months wanting to “try again”. I’m 99.9% sure she cheated on me during the marriage.

      OMG what a wench. I haven’t heard you share that before. It defies belief. I’m very, very glad you were not chump enough to try again.

      And I would say to any guy, especially any guy who has his shit together to really internalize that philosophy of “I am the prize”.

      Absolutely. Commitment is the scarce resource, and for a woman to find a good man who is willing to be monogamous is like winning the lottery. That is exactly how women should view it.

  • Lavazza

    karen: As a single dad I agree. In conversation many women claim that a lot of women are not that interested in having children and of course that women can take care of themselves without male support, but I seldom meet women who like being told that her having children with me is out of the question. I have been taking care of my kids for a long time and I do not need any help with that and in a couple of years they will be out of the house, but I am not interested in starting and paying for a second family and maybe getting divorced again. As I see it a woman over 32-33 who is not married or in a LTR since a couple of years should have thrown in the towel when it comes to having children of her own, but few women seem to agree with that idea. I wonder if there are any stats about how big a chance women over 33 have of having children of their own?

  • Lavazza

    MikeC:

    “That said, life is uncertain, and Badger’s points are correct that people change, and sometimes one’s core principles in the abstract don’t mesh perfectly when it is them or friends and family in the situation.”

    Remembering what she says in principle and seeing how much that diverts of her opinions when her principles are tested in her own, family members’ or friends’ cases is a huge clue.

    But having a bad attitude even in the abstract is quite a bad sign.

  • Geoff 2

    @Susan,

    Would like to read more about that study you mentioned re: 78% of college men wanting to marry.
    /
    I would hazard a guess that that number doesn’t break down by looks, expected income after graduation, alphaness, etc.
    /
    In short, of that 78% of college men WANTING to marry, how many of them don’t get the time of day from women on campus? Think that would be an excellent launch point for a new post at your blog.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      In short, of that 78% of college men WANTING to marry, how many of them don’t get the time of day from women on campus? Think that would be an excellent launch point for a new post at your blog.

      Fair question, and you’re right – very relevant. I’ll see if I can dig up better info. on the topic. I’m going strictly on memory, and it’s been a while.

  • Plain Jane

    Another cultural factor. Religious people in the United States appear to be more concerned about their potential spouses previous sex history than non-religious people. In Europe it simply isn’t and issue. Well, in MOST European countries. Atheism and agnosticism is also stronger in many European countries. I’m concerned about my potential man’s partner count more for health reasons than moral. But I will say this – I have dated a foreing exchange student from a country where men and women do not mix like we do here. This man was so sweet, kind, romantic, emotionally expressive and caring that I was thrown off kilter. I had NEVER experienced such love from an American man – ever. When innocent men fall in love, they fall hard.
    Maybe there is something to that theory that the more partners you’ve had, the less you are able to pair bond. Promiscuous men like Roissy are so jaded that I doubt they are even capable of loving another human being.

  • http://www.escarondito.blogspot.com Escarondito

    Awww!! Man! I’ve been missing out!

  • Badger Nation

    “There is another, more basic reason women don’t like prenups. They destroy romance.”
    .
    This is a false premise that puts blame in the wrong place; the modern institution of marriage itself destroys romance. A statutory marriage involves the binding of two people’s resources in an unlimited partnership, which is then certified by the state. The state doesn’t care about your romance, your rings, your religious ceremony or whether you even love your spouse. To say this binding is a side effect and not the real central consequence of the act of marriage is daft.
    .
    Besides, “romance” was destroyed generations ago when evil wives and their divorce attorney enablers started “taking men to the cleaners” in the NFD era.
    .
    “However, the concept is foreign and disappointing to American women raised on romantic notions.”
    .
    This website and many others document how bass-ackwards American women are when it comes to many love issues; I would probably never get to this point with a woman who had false (FALSE) romantic ideals, so I am not concerned with this item. They can grow up if they want to or they can live in a fantasy world and wonder where all the good men went.
    .
    “Second, the prenup is insurance against a wife’s misbehavior. Again, while this may be very practical, it does by definition cast some doubt on the woman’s character and/or intentions.”
    .
    But the marital establishment already contains insurance against a man’s misbehavior (by virtue of the fact that most women marry up). Is it that much to ask that a woman give a man some counterpoint?
    .
    “I think it would be hard not to take this personally.”
    .
    Take it up with the sisterhood. If 5% of couples divorced, most of them were for cause, the splits were equitable otherwise, and women didn’t project their own relationship problems onto their divorcing friend in encouraging her to “clean him out in the divorce,” I wouldn’t have to worry about this. Instead ~30% of couples divorce, most are initiated by women and most of those are not for legitimate cause. Men didn’t create this anxiety and I’ll be damned if women are going to call me insecure for being concerned about the fact that should I marry my chance of getting robbed by a divorce court is nearer the risk of catching a cold than the chance of hitting 00 on a roulette wheel.
    .
    “It wouldn’t surprise me if negotiating these matters up front actually reduced long-term commitment, at least slightly. Anything that makes it easier to walk away/dissolve the marriage must increase the likelihood of the occurrence.”
    .
    But a prenup doesn’t make it easier to walk away. The ability to walk away is contained IN THE MARRIAGE LAW ITSELF. A prenup cannot limit nor enable the ability to divorce, it just clarifies the proceedings. By your rationale, a couple shouldn’t even discuss their finances views on divorce in the abstract at all because “negotiating these matters reduces long-term commitment.”
    .
    I can only speak for myself, but I’d breathe a lot more easy if my spouse agreed to limit her “stake” in a theoretical divorce. If she refused to do so, I can only think it’s because she wants to have the ace up her sleeve to play. That would definitely reduce my feelings of long-term commitment.
    .
    “That doesn’t mean it’s pleasant, or that women will ever view it as a neutral transaction.”
    .
    If letting a man keep half his stuff and not having to pay a salary to an ex-wife isn’t a “neutral transaction,” then maybe terre is right and guys should say the hell with marriage altogether.
    .
    Look, I get that hashing all this out is kind of a drag. But people need to be on the same page or figure out how to get there, or break up before the issues are front and center and you’re looking at missing the mortgage payment or dumping your spouse. Forget the prenup per se – people who don’t discuss finances, their views on divorce, raising kids/stay at home, etc, are just well-meaning fools in my book. If you’re afraid to discuss big issues with the people who matter most, or if you lie about it because you don’t want to make waves, you’ve got some of your own personal development to do and that goes for men and women.
    .
    I also get that you haven’t had to deal with this line of thinking at all – you found your love early and built each other’s careers together, life’s always been content if not great and you can’t imagine splitting up, and even if you did you’d probably split amicably.
    .
    That’s what I wanted too, but it didn’t happen for me that way, and so if and when I marry it’s going to be on the heels of a half-built career that I constructed without her. If there’s anything I’ve learned in life it’s that people given things they didn’t make themselves don’t appreciate their value as much.
    .
    I’d love it if courts and laws were fair and I never had to deal with the issue too. But that’s not the world we live in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger
      I thought I’d made it pretty clear I am not arguing about the necessity for prenups. I think you’ve made your case very well. I’m just trying to shed some light on the fact that probably upwards of 90% of women would rather not have that conversation, and it’s not because they all want to ass-rape you in divorce court. Obviously, you are free to judge a woman however you choose. I’m not saying marriage laws are fair, or that prenups are unfair. Just try to keep in mind that your average woman – American or otherwise, is not frequenting MRA sites. Personally, I believe there would be a lot more sympathy for men’s issues if the delivery could be dialed down a notch. When I’ve spoken with young women about the realities of U.S. laws around marriage, custody and divorce, they’ve been surprised and interested to know more.
      .
      You’re right to suggest taking it up with the sisterhood. Just keep in mind that the sisterhood you speak of is now 50-70. Women in their 20s didn’t see these laws enacted, and unless they’ve witnessed a nasty divorce, have not been exposed to them. You can call us all ignorant fools, but it’s probably not going to build female support for change, which men desperately need.

  • Lupo

    This is fairly simple. Others have pegged part of it: popular yet bitchy girls are simply superior as females to the “nice” ones. More feminine, higher in social rank, they’re generally physically hotter as well. You hate them as “bitches” because you fall lower on the social hierarchy than they do. Furthermore, “bitchy” types are aggressive. I can’t date a woman I don’t notice. Bitches are the ones out in front trying to get my attention. If I were more passive, an aggressive bitch is even more likely to get down my drawers than a nice wallflower. They’re also reasonably nice to me -or they don’t last, so, no downside. Essentially, “bitches” are the female equivalent of an alpha male.
    I don’t know why this is mysterious to anybody. It’s as obvious as a wart on a bald head to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lupo
      Interesting. So would you marry a bitch? It sounds like you’re coming at it from a strictly short-term perspective, i.e. all about the sex.
      .
      I do think bitches are found mostly in high status groups, but I don’t agree that they comprise 100% of that population. There are high status females who are not bitchy, and envy only the bitch’s boyfriend status, not her looks, wealth, etc.

  • Mike C

    @Susan
    .
    OMG what a wench. I haven’t heard you share that before. It defies belief. I’m very, very glad you were not chump enough to try again.
    .
    Well….actually…..(chump raising his hand :) ) I took her back the first time. It was a very emotional time, and like I said she was my first love, first sexual partner. She successfully persuaded me she had not cheated. My best friend told me I was making a mistake, but I wanted to believe what I wanted to believe. She moved back in with her stuff. I think it was about 6 weeks later there was a blow-up of Armageddon like proportions (I think I’ve mentally blocked out the exact chronology). She was throwing stuff, breaking stuff. I told her to take her stuff and get the hell out and that it was over. Both sets of parents/family members were called and came over. It was just an utter debacle. I will say this. I wasn’t 100% blameless although 95% of the problems were her doing. A few things I should have done differently. That said, we were definitely wrong for each other, she was NOT READY to be a WIFE, and she demanded a level of time and attention that was exhausting.
    .
    My current GF can sit on the couch for hours, watch TV, and play Solitaire (basically ENTERTAIN HERSELF) while I work in my home office. Every once in awhile, I come out and smooch her and go back to my office. She doesn’t require enormous amounts of MY time and attention. The problem with many women is they simply demand too much of a guy’s time and cut into his gym time, friend time, time for vocational pursuits and hobbies, etc.
    .
    Anyway, about 2 months after that, just before my birthday, she shows up at my door with a birthday cake asking if we could try one more time, and stop the divorce proceedings. I think I thanked her for the cake, and told her no, and didn’t see her again until court.
    .
    The divorce proceedings were a charade, and gave me a glimpse how ridiculous the system is. Thankfully, the assets were negligible. It was basically how to divide up the furniture and wedding gifts. I knew she would get the couch so let’s just say it would look a lot different under a black light. She emptied the joint account of all cash long before that, and before I even considered the possibility. We had no kids so there were no custody issues. During the divorce proceedings, attempts were made to portray me as emotionally abusive with subtle hints that I used physical intimidation (I’m 6’3″ and around that time I think I was 260). So I am extremely sympathetic to the view, that divorce proceedings can become a spectacle where the woman lies her ass off to maximize her take. “Hell hath no fury….”

    I was still making payments on the engagement ring for many months AFTER we had already divorced. LOL

    Funny thing, and not sure what exactly it speaks to…some type of connection that never goes away? But about 2.5 years ago, 3 years after the divorce, I’m in the local Walgreens and I turn to face the register and catch the back view of a woman walking out for literally a tenth of a second. I think all I saw was just a flash of hair. It felt like her. I hadn’t seen her for years, and saw someone for a split second. I walk outside, look around, see no one and get in my car and drive away. About a mile down the road, I hear this honking, I hear more honking, and more honking, and I look to my side and she is in the car next to me waving at me, and trying to signal me. I figure what the heck and pull over. I actually got into her car, we had a brief conversation about what was going on in our lives, said bye, wished her luck in life, and haven’t seen her since. During the conversation, it was almost as if it had been a different person who married her, it was actually kind of weird to sit next to this person who at one time had such a hold on me and not have any of the feelings that I had for so many years. In contrast, I could tell she was filled with massive regret and that seeing me had triggered something. I could have had her that night, no doubt whatsoever, but I would never do that to my current GF.

    Absolutely. Commitment is the scarce resource, and for a woman to find a good man who is willing to be monogamous is like winning the lottery. That is exactly how women should view it.
    .
    I’m kind of reassured that you agree with that point, but I’d bet you’d get tremendous pushback from many young women on that point. A guy with options choosing monogamy is passing on something (sexual variety) that he craves tremendously and would have easy access to. I suppose it is sort of the same reason that 5-7 women sleep with alpha types. They do it because THEY CAN. And I suppose on another level, that is one of my problems with women with very high numbers. It reflects a sense of self-indulgence and utter lack of restraint. Say you walk past an all you can eat dessert table filled with the best of everything. One person is highly selective and chooses 3-4 treats to eat. Another simply eats and eats and eats and eats for no other reason that they desire it and the option to do it exists. Is it morally repugant? No. Is it something to “respect”? Hardly.
    .
    I do think in the coming years, more women will come to that realization as that 78% number (I think that was it) consistently trends downward.
    .
    I’ve got a couple of things to e-mail you so keep an eye out for that.

  • Mike C

    Forget the prenup per se – people who don’t discuss finances, their views on divorce, raising kids/stay at home, etc, are just well-meaning fools in my book.
    .
    Word.
    .
    I believe that one of the reasons the divorce rate is so high is that the majority of people actually do NOT discuss these matters thoroughly and exhaustively prior to getting married. They just assume that differences will just magically work themselves out.
    .
    There is pretty clear evidence the #1 issue driving divorce is money and finance. It is the #1 thing couples fight about. I don’t want to get off on a crazy tangent, but the problem is we live in a consumerist, materialist culture driven by relentless marketing and advertising.
    .
    It is true that generally speaking women tend to be more receptive to these messages then men. They drive most big purchase decisions. On the whole, women also tend to be more financially irresponsible and imprudent. NOT ALL WOMEN, but a greater proportion then men. This is because of the drive for status so marketing/advertising plays that desire to increase status.
    .
    There is that famous commercial (I think it is Century 21) where the wife is admonishing the husband that they need to get in over their head on a new home.
    .
    Anyways, all that is a long way of saying that a woman who demonstrates financial responsibility really sets herself apart as a marriage partner. My GF has been living on a strict budget for many months now and getting her car paid off instead of taking shopping excursions. We discussed and agreed when her car is paid off she can go on a massive shopping spree for new outfits. Now it is her money and she can do whatever she wants with it, but I certainly won’t marry someone who can’t demonstrate financial discipline in tough economic times.

  • Sox

    The “least deserving girls” are usually the easiest to hook up with, with the least commitment necessary. Look at it this way, the more emotionally detached a girl is making herself appear, the more plausible deniability (and imo rightfully so) a guy has to take her at her word and not give her anything more.
    .
    I say this knowing every girl I’ve ever messed around with multiple times HAS developed feelings for me even when they’ve jumped into it knowing it was nothing more. I’m not a player, I still have a conscience, cynical as I am now. If I think there’s a chance I’ll hurt a girl, I’m less likely to get involved with her. If, however, she’s acting like she’s hot shit and more emotionally detached than I am, let’s see how that plays out.

  • Florence

    @ Badger, Mike C
    What Susan said about the divorce system is 100% true. I don’t know how it works. I don’t think that there are many women who are bothered to learn about the system in their countries, unless a divorce is foreseeable in the near future. We can only hope for it to be fair and just. After these discussions though, I feel strongly encouraged to find out how it works.
    Personally, I am against prenups and only hope that a potential husband won’t be too insistent on me to sign one. If he does insist because of good intentions, then I’d have to do my homework and find out everything about the system. Men are naturally great negotiators and have excellent math skills. As a female, I’d better watch my back when making any kind of a financial contract with a man.
    I am pretty careful with my money. I am one girl who actually collects her receipts and does her accounting at the end of the month. I’ve never had a late credit card payment. I choose cooking delicious home meals before expensive restaurants. A prenut will not only destroy the romance for me because it implies lack of trust in me, but it may also bring worry whether the man in question will turn into a control freak on me after marriage. I like men who are responsible with their money, but I do not like CHEAP men. Such men have the potential to make a woman’s life miserable too.
    Finally, I have no intention to destroy another human being’s life if a marriage does not turn out exactly the way I’ve imagined it to be. I realize that we do not live in a perfect world. It is selfish and unfair for women to demand unrealistic things from a man. Assuming that both people are entering into the commitment with the best possible intentions, what happens down the road should be irrelevant today and should be dealt with when the time comes.

    I thinking sitting down and talking it out is a good start.

  • terre

    “Another cultural factor. Religious people in the United States appear to be more concerned about their potential spouses previous sex history than non-religious people. In Europe it simply isn’t and issue. Well, in MOST European countries.”
    .
    What? Of course it’s an issue; where in the world did you get the impression it wasn’t? If anything, European men are far more hardcore than the generally negotiable Americans, particularly those outside the UK/Germany/France circle. If you’re expecting men in Europe to be anything but very traditional, you’re in for a rude awakening.

  • terre

    Anonymous, it’s not you who decides the settlement in a divorce hearing; it’s the judge, and to an extent your attorney (depending how far he or she pushes your case). That’s why women get presumptive custody unless the father challenges her claim, etc.

  • Florence

    Being “attractive, ambitious, intelligent man willing to commit” makes a man a more attractive candidate. It gives him more options. It means that he deserves the BEST prize. Good looking women, who are smart, caring, optimistic and financially responsible, are as SCARCE as the men who deserve them. I believe that women will always be the prize because naturally men prefer to be the pursuers.

    As for the “willingness to commit”, I’d always be a bit skeptical. In this case it seems that the “willingness to settle down” is what is meant. To me those two things mean completely different things and are influenced by different factors.

  • Florence

    @ Terre

    Anonymous above was me. I realized that I wasn’t signed it.

    “Anonymous, it’s not you who decides the settlement in a divorce hearing; it’s the judge, and to an extent your attorney (depending how far he or she pushes your case). That’s why women get presumptive custody unless the father challenges her claim.

    – Terre, I was talking about premarital agreements. As to what you are saying, it is precisly why women aren’t bothered to find out the system. They rely on the system decide what each party is entitled to.

  • Florence

    @ Mike C

    I am sorry to hear that your first marriage turned out that way. This girl certainly did not deserve a guy like you. You said that you lost your virginity to her. Just out of curiosity, did she also lose hers to you as well?

  • Florence

    @ Badget

    That’s what I wanted too, but it didn’t happen for me that way, and so if and when I marry it’s going to be on the heels of a half-built career that I constructed without her. If there’s anything I’ve learned in life it’s that people given things they didn’t make themselves don’t appreciate their value as much.
    I’d love it if courts and laws were fair and I never had to deal with the issue too. But that’s not the world we live in.

    – Life is about taking risks. A marriage is a risk, just like an investment is. Look at it this way.

    I absolutely respect your wish to protect yourself. It is smart. It is a survival instinct. Find a girl, who is appreciative and understanding of your concerns.

    “I can only speak for myself, but I’d breathe a lot more easy if my spouse agreed to limit her “stake” in a theoretical divorce. If she refused to do so, I can only think it’s because she wants to have the ace up her sleeve to play. That would definitely reduce my feelings of long-term commitment.”

    – Annother great example of how good men are at negotiating, lol! Using the issue of “long-term commitment” as an asset to be negotiated over. What about the long-term commitment that we make to you, dude?

  • Florence

    PS: If anything I’ve learned up to now (mid twenties) about men is how GREAT they are at negotiating. They will negotiate to get in your pants and they will negotiate a marriage in order to get most of it! Ladies, watch your backs!

    This is not intending to offend any man on this forum, but since this forum is about HUS, I felt I needed to say it. Consider it a compliment!

  • OffTheCuff

    Some random quote I have to respond to:

    It depends on where you live, I suppose, but I believe that most men would have zero interest in a woman who got to her mid-20s without ever having been kissed.

    .
    I’ll go on record saying WRONG! If she hasn’t been kissed because she’s revolting, then the reason for zero interest would be the fact she’s revolting, not for her kissing experience. Otherwise, I’d give her a chance. If she was pretty, it would be like discovering The Holy Grail in your backyard.
    .

    But I will say this – I have dated a foreing exchange student from a country where men and women do not mix like we do here. This man was so sweet, kind, romantic, emotionally expressive and caring that I was thrown off kilter. I had NEVER experienced such love from an American man – ever. When innocent men fall in love, they fall hard.

    .
    I’m stunned, really.
    .
    There are tons of young American men like this. I was one! Guys, how many of you were like this? However, we didn’t get a chance. When we act like this, it’s usually instant LJBF. We learn pretty quickly that women hate this behavior, and so the smart ones stop. Women say they want it, but as a rule, they will not date men who act like this. Years of asexuality beats the romance out of us very quickly.
    .
    I suspect your foreign man was gifted in the attractiveness department, enough to compensate for his smooshiness. A regular guy who openly acts like that, is doomed. Here’s the thing though: we do still really feel like that. We just show it at our peril.

    Maybe there is something to that theory that the more partners you’ve had, the less you are able to pair bond. Promiscuous men like Roissy are so jaded that I doubt they are even capable of loving another human being.

    I agree.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      If she hasn’t been kissed because she’s revolting, then the reason for zero interest would be the fact she’s revolting, not for her kissing experience. Otherwise, I’d give her a chance. If she was pretty, it would be like discovering The Holy Grail in your backyard.

      Well, that was kind of my point. What are the chances of coming across the Holy Grail? For a pretty girl to get to 25 without ever having been kissed, she would have had to have been brought up in an extremely restrictive community, have any number of problems – medical, mental, etc. or …I don’t even know! I don’t think it happens often, certainly not in the U.S. I will say this: she is more likely to have been kissed by a player than a good man, and that is a problem.

  • Höllenhund

    You can call us all ignorant fools, but it’s probably not going to build female support for change, which men desperately need.

    Women won’t willingly sacrifice their legal privileges out of goodwill towards men. Not gonna happen, ever. Marriage laws, rape shield laws etc. won’t be amended or repealed as long as the ideology that created them is socially accepted. Those who want to improve men’s rights should therefore prepare for a long ideological struggle, similar to the one proposed by Antonio Gramsci to the communist movement in the ’20s and waged by cultural Marxists, to subvert the feminist system and utterly discredit its dogmas.

    A hostile system must be subverted, destabilized and ultimately dismantled, not reformed or openly opposed. Any current attempt at legal reform would amount to nothing more than an easily repelled, weak frontal attack on the feminist system, which is still powerful and intact. Any legal reform receiving female support would be very limited in scope and thus would be no more than tinkering around the edges, cementing rather than changing the legal climate. Cultures in terminal decline are never saved by limited legal reform.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Women won’t willingly sacrifice their legal privileges out of goodwill towards men. Not gonna happen, ever. Marriage laws, rape shield laws etc. won’t be amended or repealed as long as the ideology that created them is socially accepted.

      I don’t disagree with you, but I was thinking along these lines. Let’s say things continue exactly as they are for a good long while yet. At some point, the press catches on to the declining marriage rate, which has led to an even lower birth rate among the educated. We are not replacing ourselves, and pundits, economists, etc. start to make noises that we are in serious trouble if a solution is not found. Of course, by then it will be very late, and much damage will have already been done, but this is the way issues come to the fore. Suddenly, there’s a huge number of articles and analyses about the declining marriage rate. Two explanations surface again and again:
      1. Monogamy has been significantly weakened 50 years after the Sexual Revolution.
      2. U.S. marriage laws are unduly hostile to men.
      Only when this is perceived as a crisis by the general public will there be enough traction to change the laws.

  • Mike C

    I am sorry to hear that your first marriage turned out that way. This girl certainly did not deserve a guy like you. You said that you lost your virginity to her. Just out of curiosity, did she also lose hers to you as well?
    .
    Thanks, live and learn I guess.
    .
    No, she did NOT lose her virginity to me. I can’t remember with absolute certainty what she told me, but I think it was that she had 4 sexual partners before me. I was 22 and she was 23 at the time (she was almost exactly 1 year older then me). Looking back now, knowing what I know now about the female propensity to lie about “the number” and juxtaposing that against how experienced she seemed, I’d bet she was probably lying and it was higher.
    .
    I remember that time. There I was a 22-year old guy who had NEVER even had a girlfriend, no female attention whatsoever, and now I was having pretty intense sex just about every day with a very attractive woman. I tolerated a massive amount of emotional angst, drama, hostile arguments, manipulation for basically that single reason.

  • Mike C

    It depends on where you live, I suppose, but I believe that most men would have zero interest in a woman who got to her mid-20s without ever having been kissed.
    .
    I’ll go on record saying WRONG! If she hasn’t been kissed because she’s revolting, then the reason for zero interest would be the fact she’s revolting, not for her kissing experience. Otherwise, I’d give her a chance. If she was pretty, it would be like discovering The Holy Grail in your backyard.
    .
    I’ll second that. The statement above is definitely a crystal-clear example of female projection, and a perfect example of just how powerful the PRESELECTION effect is in women. A guy could be objectively a good prospect on paper, and if he completely lacks experience, the assumption will be made something must be wrong with him.
    .
    Again, guys don’t work this way. Yes, a player type isn’t going to want to waste his time because she is likely to not be very good, but could still find her attractive based on appearance.

  • Lupo

    Susan: “So would you marry a bitch? It sounds like you’re coming at it from a strictly short-term perspective, i.e. all about the sex.”

    I’m not marrying anybody: that would be insane in this day and age. That said, when I date bitchy women, they ain’t in the least bit bitchy towards me. Other women continue to hate them, and think them aggressive bitches, but I don’t care what other women think. I care about their behavior towards me.

    As a couple of amateur sociologists, sans the emotional blinders of the Cinderella fairytale, let’s look at the natural progression of a man woman relationship.
    1) Man notices woman. Full stop. Who is he going to notice? Wallflower or aggressive bitch?
    2) Man dates woman. Again, is he going to date the girl who bats her eyelashes and hopes he calls, or the chick who basically does all the work for him, who is probably a bitch? Bitch wins again.
    3) Man marries woman. The probability of a man marrying a woman is also much higher if the woman is bitchy and aggressive, simply because most men have no real reason to get married, other than giving a woman he cares about what she wants. Since most men are retarded, he’s only going to know what she wants if she is, again, bitchy and aggressive.

    Game, set, match: bitches win.

    There is also the matter that most men in America are weak goofballs who were raised by domineering women, and so they’re looking for an overbearing mommy figure to round out their emotional lives, but this is a somewhat secondary effect.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Lupo, “1) Man notices woman. Full stop. Who is he going to notice? Wallflower or aggressive bitch?”

    * He’ll notice the prettiest one. That’s why the world’s most physically attractive women, no matter what their behaviour or sexual past, will ALWAYS have a committed boyfriend or husband. Always. Always. Always.

    @ Off the Cuff, “There are tons of young American men like this. I was one! Guys, how many of you were like this? However, we didn’t get a chance. When we act like this, it’s usually instant LJBF. We learn pretty quickly that women hate this behavior, and so the smart ones stop. Women say they want it, but as a rule, they will not date men who act like this. Years of asexuality beats the romance out of us very quickly.”

    * No, my foreign boyfriend was not strikingly handsome. I’d say he was average for his race. But neither am I beautiful. His culture did not place as much emphasis on looks as our’s does. In fact, they prefer a more subdued woman in the looks department, according to him. They have their reasons for that. I feel that American men expect us to look like glamour queens all the time. I’m a simple and laid back person. Anything too complicated in my daily routine and I feel it takes time away from things that matter. I’m not going to spend hours on hair and makeup and I’m not much of a consumer of clothing and body products. I feel that as long as someone is clean, healthy and well-groomed, they are good to go. Don’t you?

  • terre

    There are tons of young American men like this. I was one! Guys, how many of you were like this? However, we didn’t get a chance. When we act like this, it’s usually instant LJBF. We learn pretty quickly that women hate this behavior, and so the smart ones stop. Women say they want it, but as a rule, they will not date men who act like this. Years of asexuality beats the romance out of us very quickly.

    .
    The real irony is that you can’t win one way or the other. Note her words carefully: “[...] where men and women do not mix like we do here [...]“. Suggesting that women entering “coed” college classes and sanitized industrial offices alongside men may have a deleterious effect on the natural sense of mystery and apprehension between the sexes, a necessary condition for romance, is just about tantamount to Holocaust denial. Which way would they have it, then? Alas.

  • karen

    @ Plain Jane,

    I am going to have to disagree here. From my own observations, it is always the plain and cute females who have plenty of boyfriends and husbands. I’ve known some plain looking females who go from one relationship to another relationship to another relationship. They may not be dating alpha males but they are hardly ever single. On the other hand, I have know some females who were definite 10s, and they were single for most of the time that I knew them. I guess many men thought that the hot females were taken or out of their league and that is why the hot females were single. But I personally think that average looking women have an easier time of meeting men and entering into an LTR. Hot women may get noticed a lot but they contrary to popular mythology, some of them hardly ever get asked out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @karen
      I agree with this assessment. Interestingly, there’s a blogger who wrote about the Carol problem, after a beautiful woman named Carol that he knew. He is a math guy, so he devised an equation that explains why beautiful women ignored by men. I’ll try and feature it soon, if I can figure out the math :/

  • Lavazza

    Karen: The hottest chicks can be pickier and wait for the guy and the relationship they want. And if they are moral, they will not string guys along who do not meet their standards in the meantime.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lavazza

      Karen: The hottest chicks can be pickier and wait for the guy and the relationship they want. And if they are moral, they will not string guys along who do not meet their standards in the meantime.

      This is true, but you know what? Many lovely women would like to be approached by guys who count themselves out. As you know, women are often attracted to men for reasons other than looks. Of course, this is the basis of Game. I’ve known some very pretty girls who were crushing on guys who clearly feared them. Yes, the women can take the initiative, but the truth is that unless the guy can produce the self-confidence/social dominance it isn’t going to work with a woman who is 8-10.

  • Plain Jane

    @Terre, “The real irony is that you can’t win one way or the other. Note her words carefully: “[...] where men and women do not mix like we do here [...]“. Suggesting that women entering “coed” college classes and sanitized industrial offices alongside men may have a deleterious effect on the natural sense of mystery and apprehension between the sexes, a necessary condition for romance, is just about tantamount to Holocaust denial. Which way would they have it, then? Alas”

    But alas indeed, Terre! In these very same cultures there ARE co-ed colleges and workplaces. The societies are so conservative however that the sexes SOCIALLY segregated themselves and both women AND men are shy around each other. This reinforces their arranged marriages. You see it all over South Asia.

  • Höllenhund

    Two explanations surface again and again:

    1. Monogamy has been significantly weakened 50 years after the Sexual Revolution.
    2. U.S. marriage laws are unduly hostile to men.

    3. Young men are avoiding commitment and fatherhood because they are immature, incapable of accepting a confident, independent woman as a companion, and too insecure in their masculinity to sign up for a relationship where women have the rights they’re justifiably entitled to (i.e. Marriage 2.0).

    The third explanation is the most likely to be accepted by American women and the MSM which caters to them for a number of reasons. When a social crisis gets attention, the usual response of the populace is to look for scapegoats, not a solution. Considering that women have traditionally blamed men for their problems and that the No.1 scapegoats of the West since 1945 have been (usually right-wing) white men, it’s not difficult to predict who will be blamed for the collapse of marriage.

    Moreover, the concepts of eliciting good male behavior, giving men incentives and concessions in order secure their commitment and helping men through legal reform are completely alien to the average Westernized woman. No matter how much her attention is driven to the collapse of marriage, she will parrot the same BS responses: men should man up, NAWALT, men should simply look harder to find the good women that are still out there, we will meet them halfway etc. This is the same reason why I’m sceptical about your argument that non-sluts will blame sluts for the dismal SMP.

    The main problem I have with such optimist predictions which also regularly appear on various MRA and conservative sites is they are based on two rather baseless assumptions: that people are capable of 1. identifying the true causes of a social crisis 2. promoting and passing the right kind of reforms to remedy the situation. If that were the case, the USSR and Yugoslavia would still exist, for example, only with a reformed system.

    The fact is that humans simply don’t function that way. They never foresee the potential future consequences of their behavior and therefore rarely reform themselves to prevent the collapse. What they are good at, though, is adapting to new conditions once the collapse has occurred.

  • Plain Jane

    @Karen, “I am going to have to disagree here. From my own observations, it is always the plain and cute females who have plenty of boyfriends and husbands.”

    Cute girls – yeah. Plain ones? I don’t see it. Even in my social circle which values simplicity and “plainness” in that it eschews commercialism, materialism, makeup, fake hair, etc, the beautiful, pretty and cute girls get the majority of the guys. The plain ones get SOME action, the ugly ones – not at all.

  • Mike C

    @Plain Jane,

    Cute girls – yeah. Plain ones? I don’t see it. Even in my social circle which values simplicity and “plainness” in that it eschews commercialism, materialism, makeup, fake hair, etc, the beautiful, pretty and cute girls get the majority of the guys.

    But in the other thread you said:

    I DO put effort into my appearance. I shower a lot, keep my hair brushed, and wear simple, inexensive, yet flattering clothing. That’s enough. And its not any less (sometimes its more!) than the other women in my “naturalistic community” who NEVER have a problem getting several guys to orbit them at the same time – both within and without the community.
    .
    Unless I am misreading you, you are contradicting yourself here a bit. Bottom line though, men select heavily on physical beauty. Always has been, will always be the case. Only you can decide “what is enough”. But if you are getting attention from the men inside the “naturalistic community”, then it is all good right?

  • Plain Jane

    Nope Mike C, I’m not contradicting myself. My original premise, like your’s, is that men DO select for beauty. Hence my statement that the beautiful, pretty and cute girls get regular traffic, the plain girls a little traffic and the ugly girls no traffic. The same plays out amongst fake people and real people like my community. Just because a woman doesn’t shave her pits or legs doesn’t mean she has an ugly face or un-shapely body. Those women in my community who have the naturally prettiest faces and shapely bodies get the most traffic from the widest range of guys – despite having armpit air. Beauty has nothing to do with makeup and fake stuff.

  • Lavazza

    SW: “Many lovely women would like to be approached by guys who count themselves out.” I were a beautiful girl I would see that as a low price for not having to reject guys on a regular basis. It is hard to reject politely when you have to do that often, and you will even avoid people who you might have to reject, like tourist have found out on destinations where aggressive selling is the norm.

  • http://freesoc.wordpress.com sconzey

    I’d suggest there’s a cause and effect being mixed up here. The girls who — for whatever innate or subconscious reason — can get the guys, get complacent with the consistently high level of male attention they’re receiving. That, in combination with a strong dose of the old “grass is greener” can turn a girl a bit crazy.

  • Anonymous

    I feel that American men expect us to look like glamour queens all the time.

    .
    I’m going to ask “which men?” to the assertion “phrase American men expect us to look like glamour queens all the time”. The cynic in me would say “High-status men require beauty queens, and only their opinion counts, so it seems like all men require beauty queens”.
    .
    However, I will agree that what you see in available your age men might be different than what’s really out there. Easy-going guys like me get married young. All of the “regular guy” folks I knew got married well before 30, soon after graduating.
    .

    I’m a simple and laid back person. Anything too complicated in my daily routine and I feel it takes time away from things that matter. I’m not going to spend hours on hair and makeup and I’m not much of a consumer of clothing and body products. I feel that as long as someone is clean, healthy and well-groomed, they are good to go. Don’t you?

    .
    Sure, my wife and I wife would agree. But she she does like to dress up on occasion. She loves makeup but isn’t compelled to wear it every single day.
    .
    I’m a regular guy working in engineering, and so are most of my friends, and they all married regular women. That’s reflective of nearly everyone I know. One of my cousins is the exception – she works out obsessively and dolls up every single day, but she’s a bit messed in the head. Other than her, none of women are the “get-all-dolled-up-daily” variety that you see so often on TV dramas. Are you really forming this opinion on real people who have successful relationships?
    .
    I never dated any beauty queens, either successfully or unsuccessfully. It would be ridiculous for me to have a standard that high. The girls I asked out were in jeans and sneakers going to dorm/house parties, rarely in makeup — not dolled-up in skimpy club attire. But that was a different era. Women rarely dressed up like that, unless it was some sort of formal event — and I went to *lots* of bars and frat parties in college.
    .
    However, I think it is possible to dress well and look attractive, with very little amount of time spent grooming. It doesn’t take any extra time out of my day to wear clothes that fit well.

  • Lupo

    @Plane Jane “He’ll notice the prettiest one. ”

    Not really; he’ll notice the one who is most aggressive in displaying her charms; aka “probably a bitch.” Look at that Paris Hilton ying yang; everyone notices her, despite her looking like a hyena.

  • The Frosted Marcos

    Susan,

    Interesting conversation you’re having here. As for “The Carol Syndrome”, here is the link below:

    http://plus.maths.org/issue51/features/rey/index.html

    Carol and other beautiful women who never get asked out: fantasyland. I’ve known quite a few models and (believe it or not) dated some and in my experience 8s,9s & 10s are single because they want to be. Not because they don’t get asked out. I have never known a top 30%-er, let alone a top 10%-er, to be without a beau. That ranks right up there with UFOs and unicorns and other modern myths.

    I’ve read all of the comments to date and I think as self-proclaimed rat bastard that I can sum up this post. In short, bitchy women get the most desirable men because they are attractive. They are not attractive because they are bitchy. The reason these bitches get away with it is because men, especially younger men, will tolerate it just to get the sex. It’s that simple.

    Men, especially shy or Beta men, need to approach more (and apply a little Game). Women, especially the plain janes or less-than-plains, need to be more flirtatious/open. My rule of thumb for women in general? Practice humility. I know this word may not be in your vocabulary, but in short, “There but for the Grace of the Father go I.” I live in Dallas, and I can tell you I see some serious coldness displayed by women when they are approached by the guys they don’t want, or worse – men they thought were attractive but didn’t utter the right Hollywood movie lines when they spoke to them (and these women are 4-6 range). This is a lack of humility – not understanding or empathizing how difficult it is to approach someone you’re attracted to and risk rejection. In all of my years on the dating scene, I have never seen men, even Alphas, reject a woman rudely. Just. Doesn’t. Happen.

    On a side note, I have dated a few of the top 20%-er girls and from my experience, they’re not worth the trouble – at least not in the long run. Sure, you get to bang a hot chick for a while, but frankly, that gets old quickly. Everybody should take a long, cold, hard look at themselves in the mirror. Damned few of us are in the top 10% in anything. So, aim for the middle. I’m not saying settle! Just re-evaluate what you really have to offer the opposite sex and cross that with what you want. Be realistic. But you won’t listen to me, because as Earth, Wind & Fire once sang, “That’s the way of the world…”

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @The Frosted Marcos
    Awesome comment, thanks. Thx too for the link. I’m going to apply your thoughts on humility to a post I’m writing about femininity.

  • http://www.privilegedwhitemale.com Cessen

    I can’t speak for all men, only for myself. But #4, #6, and #7 ring true to me.

    I have a bad habit of mistaking these bad qualities for “strength”. I’m attracted to strength, self-sufficiency, and confidence. And historically I haven’t been great at recognizing the real thing. Although I got a lot better at it after an emotionally abusive relationship. So that also speaks true to #8.

    And, of course, I want someone who loves sex. ;-) And stereotypically, “nice” girls don’t.

  • Geoff 2

    @Plain Jane said: ” I’m not going to spend hours on hair and makeup and I’m not much of a consumer of clothing and body products. I feel that as long as someone is clean, healthy and well-groomed, they are good to go. Don’t you?” /and/ “Beauty has nothing to do with makeup and fake stuff.”
    /
    Respectively, the answers are “No” and “hell yes it does, that’s why makeup and hair is a trillion dollar market worldwide.” You can only expect to find a man in the 3-4 out of 10 looks range willing to accept this IF you’re a 5-6 out of 10 woman. You’re basically saying “why try to look good when I’m never going to be a 9 or a 10?” FIGHT DAMN IT! Don’t just wear sweatpants and get a dozen cats on your 40th birthday and end up a biological dead-end! Get your ass to the gym (thin and less attractive beats the crap out of obese and unattractive 100 times out of 100), buy some nice clothes, learn to cook, etc. Fight for the best guy you can get, then treat him like a king and see if you don’t end up so happy that your punani wakes you up every day at 7 whistling Zippety-Do-Dah!
    /
    EVERYTHING is a competition! Men learn game and/or earn money to provide for the family. If he’s really on the ball, he’ll wear something other than sweatpants to a date. Men fight for good women, you should fight for the best man you can get. Good luck out there, PJ.
    /
    P.S. The Frosted Marcos is 100% right–women are often unwilling to even consider a nice, well-groomed, well-dressed, well-mannered man in the 6 looks range, even if the girl is a 4 or 5. Get off the high horse that society has bred into your psyche via SATC (etc.) and recognize the BENEFIT of taking that guy on. He’s MUCH less likely to screw around on you like a higher ranked alpha. Trade-offs people–tradeoffs worth evaluating.
    /
    P.P.S. Ms. Walsh–the post on the need for female humility should become a weekly feature. Women’s egos are pushing good 4-6/10 looks-range men away from even TRYING to find a woman and into a long-term relationship with their World of Warcraft character. Not good for them, not good for a potential female/wife, not good for society. VERY good for Blizzard’s earnings per share.

  • Lavazza

    Geoff2: Most yoga chicks are thin and well toned. At least in the Ashtanga scene.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Geoff2: Most yoga chicks are thin and well toned. At least in the Ashtanga scene.

      This cracked me up. Who knew that some yoga scenes were hotter than others? It makes sense, though. Ashtanga is not for amateurs.

  • Plain Jane

    Geoff2, are you speaking to me specifically with all those directives, or just to women in general? You must have missed the comments where I described my healthy lifestyle and my strategy for getting a guy – interracial dating. Men at my own level within my race don’t give me play so I casted my net wider and was able to ge higher ranking boyfriends from other races. I’d suggest the same for 4-6 level guys who don’t get play from their own race’s women.

  • Shomti

    I wouldn’t describe myself as “hot”, but I’ve certainly been called it before, particularly by a slut I once had the misfortune of dating. She wasn’t attractive, she wasn’t a good emotional fit for me, she was deceptive, and she repeatedly hurt me but I was still devoted at the end of the relationship. Incidentally, she broke up with me, not the other way around. And since then, obviously, I’ve lost all attraction to her. I can’t speak for any other guys in this situation, because I’m far from typical, but I got with her due to a combination of factors.

    Firstly, I was (I know better now) extremely naive with matters of relationships. I had no ability to discern between romantic and friendly love for someone. All my friends at the time were merely people fun to hang out with, not people I shared confidential information with.

    Secondly, I had no good way of judging her at the time. She wasn’t an obvious bitch, though she did turn out to be one. She wasn’t obviously slutty, though she was a slut. And I have only recently picked up the skill of judging people’s personalities relatively accurately from their appearance including clothing.

    Thirdly, I didn’t understand I could do any better. I had and still have bad self-esteem. I’ve got a list of mental disorders and diagnoses that I either have or suspect I have, I’ve had relatively bad luck with relationships, and like I said I don’t find myself attractive. I thought that she was the best I could end up with, as emotionally abusive and bitchy as she was. So I didn’t want her to leave. She also occasionally was very nurturing even though she was at all other times extremely hurtful and only decreased my self-esteem.

    All of these things combined, meaning that when she got close to me and started flirting, I thought it meant she was emotionally attracted to me in addition to physically attracted, and after I started feeling emotionally attracted I mentally manufactured physical attraction to go along with it. She was never actually interested in anything but a physical relationship with me, but I wanted an emotional one and was only giving her the physical counterpart to keep her happy. It kept going like that until my ignorant, naive attempts at being romantic scared her and made her want out. Which I didn’t understand. Again. So you see why /I/ did it; from the outside, it looks like it follows this quite neatly, when in fact it was just a case of mistaken identity.

  • Lavazza

    In theory Ashtanga is for everyone:

    “Young man can practice, old man can practice, very old man can practice. Man who is sick, he can practice, man who doesn’t have strength, he can practice. Except lazy people. Lazy people can’t practice”

    In practice it’s quite self selective. A lot of competitive, often good looking, type A personalities, who practice in a way that is not conductive to spiritual growth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lavazza
      I tried Ashtanga for a while, but found it extremely challenging. I felt like I was always pushing myself just a little bit further than I probably should. Sure enough, one day I tore my piriformis muscle during class. I practically had to crawl home. That hurt like a bitch for a year. No more yoga for me.

  • Plain Jane

    Shomti, I know some people who had similar experiences as you. I don’t know what the answer is. Its hard to find an opposite sex friend these days interested in giving genuine emotional support.

  • Lavazza

    Susan: Well, it is not something inherant in the practice itself or in the intents of the practice, rather the total opposite, but in practice this is what it looks like in too many cases. As a teacher it seems that it is not enough to tell students that if it hurts, they are doing something wrong, and that it is necessary to physically stop students before they do something stupid. I start most classes by telling students what’s the core and purpose of the practice, but very few seem to understand that the breathing, concentration and core movements are what is important and not what is happening on the extremities. Get the core right, and everything else follows. Trying something else will stop you from ever gaining the core and concentration necessary for spiritual growth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lavazza
      Ah, I didn’t realize you taught yoga! Yes, I know you are right. I take full responsibility – I was pressing myself to achieve, achieve, achieve. My whole attitude was counter to the practice. It’s no wonder I got injured. My daughter loves hot yoga – all the rage here in the U.S. Is this also true where you are? I get the sense it is really just about exercise – there’s very little spirituality.

  • Lavazza

    Well, I don’t teach that often, only when the guy who normally teaches is away. No, hot yoga has not yet reached my vicinity, but I like practicing Ashtanga in a hot climate, like Thailand or India. The asana practice can be a deep spiritual practice in itself, but the most important purpose is to make the body healthy, strong and open enough for the student to be able to sit still silently in comfort and ease.

  • Janine

    @Susan, I’ll dig a little deeper with this. I think the party girls are the ones that are the most insecure with themselves which is why they act as they do and are so ” Out There “! There’s nothing wrong with having an outgoing personality and being fun to be around, but when you’re known as simply being wild and a party chick, that’s bad. Men who choose these types of women as girlfriends I think do so because they also are insecure and fearful. What better way to hide your insecurities than with someone who is just as insecure as you are if not more. They’d rather be with someone whose expectations they can manage down, who they can control. When women ask themselves ” Why her and not me? “, it really boils down to him believing he can continue being the way he is as oppose to having to face his true fear of intimacy with a mature woman that’s going to have expectations of him. He ” SETTLES ” for what he feels he deserves.
    Party girls may come off as independent and larger than life, but they really aren’t. When I think of party chicks and the guys who choose them I can’t help, but think of a narcissist and a co-dependent.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Janine

      I think the party girls are the ones that are the most insecure with themselves which is why they act as they do and are so ” Out There “!

      I agree that this is often true. There’s a sort of desperation to their behavior.

      When women ask themselves ” Why her and not me? “, it really boils down to him believing he can continue being the way he is as oppose to having to face his true fear of intimacy with a mature woman that’s going to have expectations of him.

      Hmmm, I think you’re part right. I think men do “settle” for women who will allow them to keep doing what they’re doing, or being the way they want to be. For many guys, there may be fear of emotional intimacy, but I think many, especially when young, just don’t want the bother. They’re getting what they need with a relationship that’s casual emotionally and intense sexually.
      .
      I think that many of the couples like this are paired narcissists.

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  • Chantal

    I know my thoughts are subjective but I think the several attempts to postulate the reasons why men prefer “sluts”, “bitches”, or “whores” over the average good looking female is kind of ridiculous. Whatever happened to just being happy being yourself? Why must women that yes, may be a little prude-ish, be condemned to crank up the “slut” factor to be considered attractive. I know men are very visual creatures but so are females; it’s been scientifically proven that both sexes prefer good looking counterparts but the truth is attractiveness is also subjective. I didn’t read through most of the post here but just reading the few I did made me kind of ticked off that people still fill their heads with these stereotypes of men and female and go out searching for those 8 little secrets to getting laid by a sexy stud. Have you ever considered that these 8 little secretes usually cast a general line over a population of people that probably have little in common with each other besides their sex.
    In someone’s post I read sluts can do whatever they want because they’re beautiful but shouldn’t expect to get married because they’re easily attainable while good girls shouldn’t expect to get married soon because men do not fully mature and think seriously think about relationships until they’re, oh maybe 35- 40. Yet, men want, “bad girls” to settle down with after they’re through with having sex (and possibly contracting several STD’s) with multiple name-less women. I don’t know about you but I find that highly contradictory. Even if there are “exceptions” to whom a man might bring home to his parents and what kind of qualities a great girl should have- why must we subject females and males to these double standards? If you all spent more time living out your passions, taking care of yourself (physically, emotionally and mentally) then people wouldn’t have to automatically self-categorize themselves into the unattractive or attractive hunk/gal box because of what some magazine said.
    And oh fyi, not all women that choose not to sleep around with random guys, douche bags, or assholes are “innocent, boring, unattractive, virgins, plain, prude, not freaky, or judgmental”. We just have higher standards and a higher level of self worth to not settle for the trash on the sidewalk. There are a lot of women like myself: that look good (and take time out to make sure they look good), have high paying careers, travel the world, have diverse interest and skills, are independent, outgoing, social, and do get approached.
    What it all boils down to is this: we all want someone to feel connected to, be intimate with and share our secrets or vulnerabilities to whatever extent we allow. If two people don’t find each other mutually attractive then why even bother. It doesn’t mean we have to completely change ourselves for someone else, but maybe consider an update for ourselves so that when we do meet that person, being a bit more attractive just seals the deal.
    Sincerely,
    A 24 yr old female, structural engineer and architect

  • Logan

    With the kind of stuff all over the media in english speaking countries, it shouldn’t be a surprise this is the culture that’s being bred. Wait a few decades and see what happens

  • http://cheapoclothing.com Emma J.

    I don’t necessarily agree that it’s always bitchy, slutty women who have boyfriends…I think we just notice them more because they tend to be louder and flashier about it. Nice, normal, modest women have boyfriends, too, but they aren’t in your face. I think the ‘bitches’ just get most of the attention from other women, so women assume that ‘bitches’ get most of the men.

  • Becker

    I think the good females make themselves too unavailable. Actually I think that “good and bad” are subjective words.

    “Slutty” girls are actually being good girls, they’re being good at expressing and sharing their feminine nature. Sure, they are going to hurt the man in the end, but that is the risk men have to take to have physical contact and to meet women.

    “Good” girls are actually bad, they are greedy and closed off from expressing their feminine side towards men. Non-Slutty women are probably just as hurtful as any Slutty kinds. Maybe more so. Today they are all programmed to harm men. The modern women in America is literally raping the collective soul of their own men.

    I think it is retarded how society thinks men only want sex. That is something we were all led to believe over decades of that saying being hammered into everyones heads. Men like to laugh and smile and enjoy conversations and food and companionship. I am 100% certain of that.

    Men generally like slutty women because it shows honesty, and men can identify that as showing respect. For most men, finding any kind of respect, be it positive or negative, is better then Nothing we receive from the proverbial good girls. From an easy girl we might as well get some nourishing touch and conversation out of a girl, before she has us falsely arrested, psychologically mutilated and beat up during the trial.

  • @peace

    This is my first post here and honestly I came across this blog by googling a line from an SNL skit that apparently exists nowhere in video format… oh well.
    After reading the original blog entry and some of the comments I was moved to say something even though this thread is basically dead. Here goes…
    For the sake of expediency I am going to use a few derogatory words that I don’t like to use such as ‘slut and psycho’ etc. People are people, some have more emotional problems than others but I don’t believe that gives me the right to dehumanize them. I’m a guy and I can confidently say after many years of observation that men and women all want the same basic things (as has been noted in some of the comments I’ve read here). Men and women want some*one* special that they love and are loved by more than any other and they want to be able to trust that one person completely and they want to be able to commit to that one person forever. The only time men and women want many sex partners is when there’s a problem. As has been mentioned several times, ‘sluts are generally emotionally unavailable’ and that goes for either gender. Emotional unavailability comes from a serious lack of trust; anyone who tries to avoid trusting people has been trained – by their life experience – that people are selfish and untrustworthy. Promiscuity can be caused by other things such as the deep rooted belief that sexuality is the only means with which to secure a mate. That type of promiscuity often creates the ‘psycho’ behavior referred to above, those men and women who are desperately looking for someone to love them but only know one way to go about finding that someone… and it doesn’t work. Of course, there are those who have made a conscious choice to try to find some meaning in the pursuit of pure physical pleasure – but that is pretty rare. In all cases, such people – sometimes after an initial feeling of freedom and power – end up feeling empty and unsatisfied with their lives. When confronted with that emptiness, some decide to change their lives and some decide the risk of change is too great.
    When it comes to why ‘bad and/or slutty girls always seem to have boyfriends’, there is a simple answer. When there is little risk taken to gain some kind of perceived reward a person is much more confident and when there is little effort involved in attaining a perceived reward a person is much more agreeable. For a player – male or female – the risk in approaching someone is minimal because they aren’t looking for anything except excitement and sex which means they can be much more relaxed and confident in their approach to the opposite sex. On the flip side, anyone approached by a relaxed and confident person giving off clear signals of sexual interest quickly realizes that all they have to do is go along with it. Maybe they realize the person doesn’t give a damn about them beyond how good they are in the sack and maybe they don’t but either way, it’s *easy*. After that, if the ‘slut’ got what he/she wanted and the other party enjoyed their time as well, they may “date” for a bit but unless some major things change their relationship is dead end. So there is no reason to envy anyone in that situation, most of the time all that happens is one or both people end up hurt and alone.
    In general, the biggest problem I see with finding that special someone and then forming a lasting and stable relationship with them in this world is the pervasive (evolutionary) philosophy that there is no meaning and no purpose in life. If you take a look at any working system – natural or manufactured – every part works together with all the other parts toward one common goal or purpose. Unity of purpose is absolutely necessary to the success of any system and that includes pre-marriage and marriage relationships. If two people have agreed to enter into a close relationship they need a truly beneficial, meaningful, common goal and purpose with which to unite them. I am not talking about commonality but common purpose and full acceptance of the respective roles each plays in the accomplishment of that purpose. Studies have shown that the real key to happiness and satisfaction is *not* being married, having children and/or financial success but the feeling that one’s life has real meaning and purpose. Such findings show that those things held out as the keys to happiness and fulfillment through social and cultural conditioning are in fact no such thing. Try to explain that with evolutionary theory. When two people are united not just by feelings of sexual attraction or affection (which waxes and wanes) but by a common and meaningful purpose then they can enjoy the process of working together and receiving appreciable results from pursuing and fulfilling that purpose together. Of course, such a truly beneficial and meaningful purpose cannot be found just anywhere and certainly not within the utterly meaningless and suffocating confines of psycho-evolutionary theory.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @peace

      Wow, that’s an epic comment, I clipped it for future reference. I really agree with you. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this.

      I’m curious, which SNL skit were you looking for?

  • @peace

    Hi Susan. I am not often moved to comment on discussions such as this one but something got my attention here. Maybe it was my mood…

    So the skit was “A Very Special Valentine’s Versace” from season 29 ep 12. I can find the entire transcript but not the skit itself. Even Hulu+ which actually *has* the episode, removed that skit (along with one other) from the show for some reason I cannot fathom. Perhaps server space…it is an older show… I don’t know.

  • E

    Um yeah ok they might have boyfriends but ever notice something about the so called supper “hotties”? Their boyfriends are usually constantly different. They’re the ones that don’t have the long relationships and those relationships are usually one nighters or at most a couple weeks and then it’s on to another guy. It’s guy after guy after guy after guy.

    Re “If anything, there’s probably far more women who’ll never actually go on three dates because it never takes that long for a girl to know whether she’s attracted or not.” I completely disagree with this statement because a lot of women think they know or think they want to know on the first date if he’s a boyfriend or marriage guy. It takes time to get to know him and her. Women that think like this go from guy to guy to guy cause they want to think they can instantly tell if he’s going to be a boyfriend on the first date. Rarely happens on first dates.

    Women have to realize they must hang with him (more the one effin date) or if after the first date keep talking with him to get to know him more. Women way to often just dismiss that guy cause they want to think that instant that he’s boyfriend material. Rarely does that happen. I think usually this is more the young women the women that are in their early 20’s and then once they get into their late 20’s early 30’s a lot of them finally realize it usually takes time. Yes of course for both men and women there are times when you just instantly know that there is nothing in common. But more times than not a lot of women are way too quick to judge and just assume. He’s not going to be this “perfect” guy, not going to have a “perfect” conversation on the first date and he’s going to probably be a bit nervous just like YOU ladies.

  • Ellen Like

    OMG Why is this so complicated? Maybe that’s why I don’t have a boyfriend!

  • cmag

    There seems to be something missing in the threads above.
    1) Guys do want no strings attached sex.
    2) Guys do want regular sex.
    3) Guys don’t want a lot of emotional investment in no strings sex relationships, and they don’t want drama about a breakup.
    So, why would they get all tangled up with a woman who wants a serious relationship? They can find the “slut” who is easy to get into bed, and easy to dump, and she doesn’t give you crap about stuff, and if she does you can dump her.

    If a guy doesn’t want the LTR, any commitment vibe, or “serious” vibe will scare him off from women who are not easy. You can’t change the guy. Just be glad there are sluts to keep him from effing with you.

  • Marc

    The two attractive traits about bitchy women…
    1. If they have a constant bitch shield, they are probably very much in demand, and have to constantly deflect dudes.
    2. We feel they are less likely to stray as they have high standards, and are very unnapproachable. We like to think our women our bitches when we’re not around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marc

      We feel they are less likely to stray as they have high standards, and are very unnapproachable. We like to think our women our bitches when we’re not around.

      Thanks, that’s interesting. I haven’t heard that before.

  • jhan6120

    Because, quite often, the ‘not so nice’ girls are attracive CRAZY CHICKS who rock in bed. Most halfway decent looking guys in an urban setting have had at least one or two of these. They’re sexual dynamos, but they’re impossible to have any kind of human relationship with. Smart guys get their fill of insane-but-sexually-wild chicks when they hit a certain age, then they look for a nice, funcitonal 6 or 7 to settle down with.

    And BTW: hot crazy chicks are ALWAYS great in bed. Why? because they have NOTHING else to offer. A man wouldn’t spend more than a day with a hot crazy chick if she wasn’t a sexual banshee.

    You wanted the truth? You got it.

  • anonymous

    It’s as simple as this:

    Men are emasculated today. And the old-fashioned notion of courting has been eviscerated and is almost nonexistent.

    Men are afraid of rejection and will take the path of least resistance: Hence their “pursuit” of “sluts.” And note the words in quotes: Men aren’t pursuing “sluts” at all – the so-called sluts are most women’s way of referring to an extremely sexually aggressive female. Male and female roles have been reversed. Women pursue and men attract. It’s completely unnatural. It is why the dating world is so miserable.

    It has almost nothing to do with attractiveness, except for men being afraid to approach a very attractive women unless she’s dropping major, obvious signals of interest. A sexually aggressive female can be a -3 and still get major play, because she assures a man that he won’t be rejected. Men today want to be coddled and assured they won’t be hurt.

    I don’t know too many stories of either males or females receiving extremely humiliating rejections, to be honest. Some people are just hypersensitive.

    The only men who still behave by nature’s ideal – that is, those who pursue women as they should – are men with nothing to lose (extremely unattractive, obese, etc.).

    Bottom line: If a man sees a woman he wants, he should go up to her. Chase her, pursue her. If she turns him down, move on to the next prospect. Men, stop being so easily hurt. Man up, as the saying goes.

  • ConfidentNiceGuy

    ” … we find out that the biggest slut in the sorority is now officially dating the QB who everyone thought was just using her … ”

    That’s right. It isn’t that complicated – the high status men get the high status women. In the Champions League of dating, there is promiscuity – but that is because they can be. Sorry about that. The skilful players play for Barcelona and get the supermodels. The less skilful players play for Barnet and date a barmaid.

    Unfortunately, this is what reality is like. Men usually face this unfortunate circumstance very early in their dating career. “Don’t try to sh*t higher than your a*se”. You get me.

    But fear not – the Europa League, which is less glamorous understandably, is an arena where being friendly, intelligent and moderately attractive is a great thing. There is still competition in this league of course, but it might be your natural home. If you know what I am saying. ;)

  • Tom

    I am guy who often wonders why all the assholes get the hottest girls. But actually, I simply don’t think it’s true – either way. There are tons of amazing girls dating sweet, nice guys. And there are tons of awesome guys dating sweet, good girls. Guys hate bitches. And I imagine girls hate assholes (although I’m actually not as sure about that).

  • Melanie

    I had my first kiss at 28 to a stranger at a club…so it’s possible to experience it that late in life…and trust me “I’m pretty hot” and not repressed type person in anyway. I got a lot of attention, catcall whistles from men on the street but I was rarely ever asked out….only by losers and crazies..so I stayed single.

  • http://www.riotgirlsays.com Riot Girl

    #8 is REALLY not true. You said “Only very young men prioritize sexual access over character, mental stability, and selectivity”. This is a negative stereotype (that never seems to be accompanied by facts since the women/girls who make these claims say they ONLY DATE older men anyway.” It depends on the man. Much older men only see the youth& body in a younger woman & could care less about her mind, he only wants to show her off to his old geezer friends. There, if you’re going to bash “much younger men” then bash “much older men”, too.