“..From a purely entertainment point of view, to create a movie with a female lead that’s empowered with her own sexuality is a powerful thing.
And if we can give teenage people something to think about from a sex perspective, I would say it would be to open a conversation where women are empowered with their own sexual experiences from an educational level as well as an entertainment level.”
Ashton Kutcher, interview about No Strings Attached
Sleeping with someone just because you want to isn’t terribly empowering, and frankly it’s probably not very difficult, either.
Mark Regnerus, interview about Premarital Sex in America
So which is it? Is casual sex empowering? The definition of the word empower is “to enable or permit; to give more opportunity for independent action.” The Sexual Revolution empowered women to have no-strings sex with impunity. Hookup culture empowers women to engage in casual sex by providing a ready supply of males and few short-term consequences.
But how does casual sex empower women? What does it enable or permit them to do, other than have more sex?
1. Women often use this term to mean having power and control over a man. Rendering him putty in your hands, literally, means that for that moment, you have the upper hand.
“I felt so powerful when he begged me. He said I was the hottest.”
2. Eliciting feedback that you are good at sex makes you feel powerful compared with other women.
“Ha, he said his stupid girlfriend can’t even give good head. I have something that bitch doesn’t.”
3. Assuming a posture of “empowerment” masks your vulnerability. You are cool with keeping things casual. Until you’re not.
“Cool, dude, I’m not looking for anything serious either. And I don’t like to cuddle.”
I don’t think sex is a very good source of empowerment. We are empowered by doing a job well, having the love and loyalty of friends and family, becoming educated, preparing for the responsibility and rewards of adulthood. Looking at sex as a way to feel a sense of accomplishment seems terribly wrong, and sad.
Crystal Bui recently wrote an editorial on hookup culture for Tufts’ student newspaper.
“Some genuinely do enjoy hookup culture and feel empowered by dictating the terms of intimate encounters. But there are also disadvantages. Because a dating culture is nearly nonexistent on college campuses, some students (male and female) are pushed into this hookup culture and have found it to be dissatisfying and degrading. The feelings of empowerment that many participants of the hookup culture describe are frequently contentious, at best, and are often disputed by sociologists, psychologists and those who are spectators to this foreign culture.
While I do not completely agree or disagree with critics’ claims regarding the impacts of hookup culture, I do believe that there is one downplayed, but troubling, consequence: Perhaps we, as a generation, are failing to form functional and meaningful relations with others.”
Perhaps it is because hookups often lack conversation that many of us have become mute in our own interactions — even with basic friendships. We’ve forgotten how to talk to each other and how to share experiences with each other — heart− and gut−wrenching experiences, like the time your girlfriend cheated on you. Like when you used to cut yourself. Like the night your loved one died. Like the day your parents divorced. Like the time you felt alone.
Maybe hookup culture is our own way of grasping at the safest alternative. After all, if you don’t reveal yourself and if you act indifferent, then you’re invisible, infallible and incapable of getting hurt.”
Contrary to empowering women, hooking up is backing them into a corner, where they lose access to meaningful relationships, which are genuinely empowering.
I was thinking about the persistence of the “empowerment” meme, and how to tackle it, when I came across a recent post by Amelia McDonell-Parry, Editor-in-Chief of The Frisky. The Frisky is a site for women that covers celebrity gossip, fashion, sex and relationships. Ms. Parry shares a lot about her personal life on The Frisky, and a couple of years ago wrote how her fiance had dumped her out of the blue one day, taking up with someone new shortly thereafter. I don’t know if there was a correlation, but suddenly there was a plethora of risque articles there promoting non-monogamy in every conceivable form:
- First Time For Everything: A Polyamorous Relationship
- My First Orgy
- Swing Clubs: The Rules
Ms. Parry, now 31, has been dating, drinking and having sex for the past couple of years, but recently, she swore off sex for six months. After all of that experimentation, how does she feel?
“I need to feel confident completely in who I am without a drink in my hand or a man in my bed. I need to really see and believe, 24/7, that I am a whole person who is lacking nothing, rather than depending on a man or a buzz to give me that validation. So. I’m taking a break from drinking. And from dating. And from sex, even with people I don’t care about.
In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.
Then the sun comes up…rolling over, I look at the person I slept with and I wonder if they felt as awesome as I did the night before. As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them, or I do and they want something very different than what I want. They don’t want to get to know me better. They already know enough to determine they’re not interested in something more. And suddenly I don’t feel so whole again. It’s not that I regret my decisions. I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”
That is one of the most painful things I’ve read, and I share it here not to benefit from someone else’s hurt, or to say “I told you so,” but because this woman has worked hard to communicate to thousands of female readers that casual sex is empowering. I applaud her honesty about what a false promise that is. Embracing sex as empowerment is really about the desire for control, in the belief that gaining control will make you whole, lacking nothing that a man wants. Ms. Parry gives us a rare peek into the mind and soul of a regretful sex-positive feminist. She was just a woman who grasped for male validation and found it lasted only as long as the moon hung in the night sky.
It’s powerful and honest testimony from a woman who walked the walk.
{ 589 comments… read them below or add one }
1 2 3 4 »
Hi Ms Walsh,
Whew!-Your ears must be burning off at this point. I say that because I’ve been talking about you all day over at Very Smart Brothas (and could actually use a hand if you’re so inclined LOL):
http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/just-in-case-you-were-wondering-its-true/
Just look for the flashing red lights – that’d be me, LOL
I posted up today’s post by you over there as an example of the excellent work you’ve been doing…
O.
I think it’s only empowering for men. The bigger the supply of available women, the less pressure men have to put up with shortcomings of any particular female. In other words, why try hard with this one when the next one is just around the corner?
)
God bless sex-pos feminism! Best thing that happened to men since sliced bread
In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.
Then the sun comes up…rolling over, I look at the person I slept with and I wonder if they felt as awesome as I did the night before. As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them, or I do and they want something very different than what I want. They don’t want to get to know me better. They already know enough to determine they’re not interested in something more. And suddenly I don’t feel so whole again. It’s not that I regret my decisions. I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”
And that is exactly what a true player plays to
@Obs
Haha, thanks so much for the shameless plugging of HUS! I see you are in your element over there, Obs. Once again, you’re channeling the Cheshire Cat. Glad my post fit in nicely with the topic. I would love it if some of those folks came by here. That looks like a good and well populated blog!
“Cool, dude, I’m not looking for anything serious either. And I don’t like to cuddle.”
…..
- I think that part of the empowerment issue is that women want to believe that they have full control over their emotions and can self-discipline themselves to not get attached to the guy they are sleeping with. They want to believe they can “have sex like a man”, as someone on this forum had previously mentioned. Certainly there are women who can do so. My promiscuous friend was at one time actually “dating” someone for a few months, who was a single dad with one child and she never got attached. She wore him off sex and money, then realized he wasn’t a good match because of his kid, which she thought at the beginning wouldn’t be a problem. She tried to dump him, while he kept crying and begging. She hated the fact that he cried constantly. I suppose she was “the man” in the relationship. Sometimes I ENVY her for being able to control her emotions so well. However, she is not the majority of women.
I’d say that if the man never made any kind of formal commitment, she got played. Like I said about the Salon post, it’s almost impressive the extent to which a woman can bounce back from being used and put a spin on it that’d make Bush Sr. blush. If you know how to read between the lines, though, it’s quite trivial to do.
Hi Ms. Walsh,
You’re most welcome! My pleasure as you have really done your homework, there’s simply no denying that, and that’s what I wanted to convey to the VSB crowd. And, as you can plainly see, there are quite a few Sistas who’ve drank the “sex pos” Koolaide, too. But not to worry – the O-Man is on the scene to sort it all out.
O.
The only thing powerful about the above is the power of our DNA, brain architecture, and neurochemical coctails that make us nature’s tool! That’s what’s appropriate for chimpanzees and less intelligent life forms – not for creatures as cognitively complex, conscious, and articulate as human beings. Sure, we’re animals too, but we also transcend animals too! In fact, its our very ability to transcend ordinary animals that allowed us to be the current Alpha species of the planet! If we keep up like this? Well, I’m sure we’ll make great pets for any extraterrestrial species that happens to come across our sun’s third rockball.
Well, well, well
Women were sold a fuastian pack in feminsim, they get power in exchange for full human love that, transcends money, beauty, age. A love wanting of them, only and completely as individuals. A love that; loves her for her faults not her strengths.
Now! The Devil wants his due!
As addition to my previous comment.
This womens small anicdote, provides us with a pictuer of horror. A portrait equivalent to Dorian Gray. Or should I say Doris Gray ;D. While she enjoys the life of sexual adventure, her soul slowly wastes away. There will be nobody to look after as she ages into oblivion, her bitterness will consume her. For she sold her most valuable possession for the cheap to many men of darkness.
Is there but one good man for her now? What has she to offer now?
Have to wonder what amount of this “high” they’re getting is really a feeling of empowerment, and what percentage is just a false positive from gina tingles.
-
A few years back, I did date a girl for a few months who had done the carousel. She described it (against my express wishes) with almost these exact words. ”I felt like a f**king goddess,” for instance, is exactly what she said. Shortly before meeting me, some drama happened (too long to fit here), and she decided she wanted to be a long-term relationship girl from then on.
-
I was (mostly) past my young and foolish stage at that point, and had recently been introduced to Game, so I treated her exactly like I imagined all the previous douchebags in her life had treated her. Besides the predictable, positive effects on her attitude toward me, she expressed a belief that I made her feel more sure of herself, more real, and more appreciated than she had ever felt before. Of course, I later found out (should have guessed) that she had said the same thing to previous boyfriends, all of whom had cheated on her (one of whom claimed she cheated on him, though she denied it; we broke up before I decided who to believe).
-
Looking back, in light of knowledge like that expressed in this article, I have to wonder how much she was mixing up the tingly feeling with feelings of empowerment. In the interest of science, I almost wish I could go back and act like a starstruck beta to see if she’d feel more empowered or less.
-
On a related note, after that experience, I am never dating a girl with such a high number again. Too much drama, and the sex was moderately above average at best.
Casual sex(or at least the ability to deliver it) can give women power over some men. They just won’t be the men women really want.
Maybe around 80% of guys(read: the majority of beta males) will be drawn to you if you are hot and you show the potential to offer quick sex. If you’re that girl, you’ll be able to string a lot of these guys along and get them to do a lot of things for you because of their level of outcome dependence. They really, REALLY want sex(they don’t get a whole lot of it), so your teasing has a greater affect on them. When you see that affect in person, it might feel empowering for a while because it appears that you actually have some serious control over them.
I know girls like this at my school-they are masters at manipulating the desperation and supplication of most guys. All they do is dress to impress and on any given weekend, they can attract massive amounts of attention. They’ll have the entire frat basement wrapped around their finger and all eyes will be on them because they LOOK like they’d be sexy freaks who’d offer quick sex(these guys aren’t advanced enough to realize that these girls would never actually bang them). Were these girls to actually offer the sex, I’m certain they’d have that guy on lockdown for quite some time because he’ll be desperate enough to want more.
Many of these guys are outcome dependent enough that she will be able to continue to wield this influence over one dude even after having many hookups with him over an extended period of time. The catch: her attraction for this guy won’t remain particularly strong the longer she wields this power over him. Women aren’t attracted to men they can consistently string along. Consistent “empowerment” over a guy breeds eventual disinterest.
The problem is that the guys who these women really want(roughly the top 20-25% of the male populace, alpha males and a few higher betas) are less outcome dependent. Because they could care less about casual sex with you in particular, they’re actually less susceptible to your expressions of blatant sexuality. They might play into it for a while to a limited extent but they’ll only do so to get laid quickly. When they do get laid or realize that you’re just teasing them, they leave quickly. She won’t be able to string them along or toy with them very much, and they won’t feed her desire for validation and attention as readily as others. In this reality, the girl whose main asset is her willingness to offer quick sex(or at least appear to) has no power over these men, even though these are the men she really wants to have power over. Sex is not a big deal to these dudes, so the women chasing them do not empower themselves by offering it. To these guys, they’re just another girl. Their mentality is embodied in this quote from Drake:
“She sent me a text but I didn’t even read it
’cause Pussy’s only pussy and I’ll get it when I need it.”
Another catch: When you’re in an environment with a gender ratio skewed to favor men(like on most college campuses where women vastly outnumber men), the abundance mentality created is going to create even more guys with lower levels of outcome dependence than normal. This is because they have options when it comes to sex and can likely access it more easily. As we know, when one can regularly achieve the outcome with less difficulty, one becomes less dependent on it. This means that in such environments women who offer casual sex are even less empowered than normal because the number of guys they can wield influence over is smaller and the number of guys who could care less(the desirable ones) is much higher.
In other words, casual sex can be “empowering” but not often in the way the women promoting it would like it to be.
“human love that, transcends money, beauty, age”
Precisely. Love is more powerful than sex.
But love also can cause a lot of pain. A lot of people want to avoid pain, so they try hard to avoid love and any emotional entanglements in the process. It’s understandable, but it’s also foolish.
And this article sums up the choices before ALL women:
a) have as much sex as you want, wear a t-shirt that says “I’m empowered” and retire from the league at age 30, or
b) wait til you’re married to have sex and watch how many guys are willing to trust you with their wealth and future income.
.
You ladies get to make this call. Not us guys.
b) wait til you’re married to have sex and watch how many guys are willing to trust you with their wealth and future income.
.
You ladies get to make this call. Not us guys.
——————————————-
I don’t think many guys are willing to trust women with their wealth and future income anymore, even if she is a “virgin”.
I think sex can be empowering if you were conditioned your entire life to think of it as something dirty. That is if you come from a repressed culture or a repressive and controlling religious cult. To break free of that mentality can be liberating and empowering in general.
Another way sex can be empowering is if you didn’t recieve sexual attention from others your entire life and then at some point in your life you start to.
And this article sums up the choices before ALL women:
a) have as much sex as you want, wear a t-shirt that says “I’m empowered” and retire from the league at age 30, or
b) wait til you’re married to have sex and watch how many guys are willing to trust you with their wealth and future income.
.
You ladies get to make this call. Not us guys.
—————————————————————
Sorry to break it to you but in today’s world most people have relationship sex with those persons they have coupled with until eventually they get married to one of them. Whenever someone tries to present you with only 1 of 2 choices, know that you always have more.
And more about that sharing of wealth………… I dated a guy who kept bringing up “pre-nup” with me. No idea why. I had zero intention of marrying him. One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?”
This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
He worked a low paying job and eventually had to move back in with parents because he could not make rent!
And he wants to talk “pre-nup”???????????
LOL. Some people just have no clue who they are.
Plain Jane: “I don’t think many guys are willing to trust women with their wealth and future income anymore, even if she is a “virgin”.”
Any guy who gets married 2.0 are doing just that, so you do not have guess how many men are doing that, just check the marriage statistics.
Plain Jane: Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry, so it seems you are going for option a).
Lets be honest here….when a woman gets with a guy that can really “PLEASE”, she wants HIM! The issue comes into place when you come down from fantasy land and realize that you are simply a casual hook-up and that takes the power, control and confidence right out of you. I’ve been in a situation with a guy who after feelings were revealed, in order to distance himself and detach from me told me and I quote ” Dude. We f**cked. That’s it. Get real with life. ”
What I learned from that experience is it had nothing to do about empowerment. I believe people who enter into casual sex arrangements/friends with benefits arrangements do so because they have a fear of intimacy issues or themselves are emotionally unavailable. Nothing good can come from two people who have insecurity issues going on and one wants to take things to another level from hook-up to committed relationship. So the real question is does empowerment in fact come from making someone wait longer before you engage in having sex?
Plain Jane: And letting the man know that you have dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to make him want to marry you, especially if you have been doing this often or recently.
But hey, that’s what lying is for.
A lot of people want to avoid pain, so they try hard to avoid love and any emotional entanglements in the process. It’s understandable, but it’s also foolish.
.
It’s also, I think, that love requires time and effort. It takes much more time, attention, and effort to cultivate and express love than it does to have sex … even sex of the more involved, intense, drawn-out variety (which is generally not alcohol-fueled hookup sex anyway). Folks are in college or in the immediate years after and are scared/reluctant to “invest” themselves in a relationship that could be a “distraction” from their other goals (ranging from advancing career to having fun until they reach age X), so they more or less deliberately avoid love, due to the time and effort it takes. This is also understandable, but also often foolish, because it places arbitrary limits on the people you are meeting during that time, and who may actually be better mates for you than the ones you meet once you feel “ready”, having reached age X.
That’s also related, I think, to this:
So the real question is does empowerment in fact come from making someone wait longer before you engage in having sex?
Of course it does, but that depends on the circumstance and the market you are in. In the pre-current market, this was the traditional way for women to exercise their sexual power (attractional power, if you will): making men wait. It was pretty effective when it was socially enforced broadly outside of limited urban libertine circles. When the culture totally shifted in its attitudes towards casual sex, however, this strategy became much harder for women to deploy because it really only works if the other women in your submarket are also deploying the same strategy. If they are not, and are offering casual sex to men and not making them wait, many men in that market will simply pass over the women who are trying to exercise power by withholding sex and go for the girls who are offering up casual sex more easily. This is exactly what Mark Regnerus was remarking in one of the previous posts by Susan here.
There still exist certain submarkets where waiting to have sex is not just common but often preferred, but these are mostly conservative religious submarkets. These submarkets have their own issues, but the strategy of not deploying casual sex is more applicable in these submarkets than in the “General” pond. In the “General” pond today, if casual sex is not on offer, you’re likely to get passed over by the men you find attractive, because they’ll just have sex with another girl.
None of this is empowering to women, of course. The current SMP is designed around the interests of the attractive men — the “men with options” to whom women will gladly give up casual sex in an effort to woo. It’s also favorable to women who are “true sluts” — that is, women who enjoy sleeping around very much like many men do (or would, if they could). These women are not, however, close to the majority of women, as Florence notes above (and also in my own experience, I’ve noted that this is the case). So if you’re not one of the “men with options” or one of the “true sluts”, the current marketplace … kind of sucks.
In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.
Then the sun comes up… As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them [...] I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”
…..
Yup, that probably summarizes the thinking of women who engage in one night stands.
Sex is not a tool, to be used for control. I have said this before. Using sex to manipulate a man in order to get whatever you are looking for – “feeling like a goddess”, money, “commitment” or anything else is simply manipulative, immoral, and completely INEFFICIENT.If you yourself don’t feel like a “goddess”, another person cannot make you feel like a “goddess”.
In addition, if a woman is looking for “mind-blowing” sex, she will not find it through ONSs. Sex for a woman is WAYY better with a boyfriend. When I hear a woman saying that she had a mind-blowing ONS with some good looking lifeguard, TBH, I don’t believe it. It’s BS. It actually gets better on the 5th or 6th time as the guy learns what the woman in question likes. Even after months of build-up, the first time is always “okay”, but very rarely “mind-blowing”. Even the most “experienced” guy won’t give you mind-blowing sex if he doesn’t know what you like.
There is something odd about the term “empowerment”…it is rarely if ever used in connection with real, serious power. I doubt if anyone ever said, “I feel really empowered now that I’m CEO of this F500 company,” or “I feel really empowered now that I’m commanding this carrier task group.”
@filrabat
It is precisely this point of biology where feminists go off the rails. Because they deny sex differences, or even the role of hormones in arousal and attachment, they are left with a blank canvas on which to project. The only way they learn is by getting burned. It took Ms. Parry two years to figure that out, and she was 29 when she began.
@Bob
I hadn’t thought of this – interesting point. Perhaps women feel empowered only by men who have power over them. It’s the conquest of snagging a night with a dominant male that produces the tingles and empowerment, which go hand in hand. It’s hard to imagine a promiscuous woman “feeling like a fucking goddess” with a nice brainy guy with limited sexual history. It’s got to be about validation from a dominant male.
@ Mellow JD
I am a sex-pos feminist. I think that the current situation is not the result of what feminists are fighting for at the core. The current situation is the result of poorly understood or misinterpreted objectives of the feminist movement. At its core values, feminism is about social equality of men and women in daily life. Feminists support closing the gender gap, not widening it – thus clearing the road for a free, individualist and diverse future. The idea of women “exploring their sexualities” is about liberating women to enjoy sex, just like any other pleasure giving activity without being shamed. Back in the day, women were so ashamed of enjoying sex to the point where they’d hide their faces if they enjoyed an orgasm or would insist the lights to be off. They’d be ashamed to walk into a sex store, to own a sex toy, to masturbate, or to see a sexually explicit movie. Today, women walk freely with their boyfriends into sex stores and engage in fantasies they used to suppress in the past.
@Athlone
Another brilliant report from the trenches.
That’s pretty funny.
Hear, hear! Stay on the market rather than date someone just to kill time.
Yes, yes, yes! This is truly the era of the promiscuous – Alphas and Sluts. But chaos always breeds opportunity, and this is where the opportunity lies – in the potential matching of current “have nots.” That means women and men with future time-orientation, low impulsivity and more traditional values. That’s roughly 80% of the population! “The world must be peopled!” Bridging the chasm between these two groups, who largely fly under the radar in our culture, is the challenge.
.
What is a waste of time for all the “have nots” is for the men to pursue the hot sluts, and for the women to pursue alpha dogs. That way lies misery.
That’s the truth.
Haha, true! Come to think of it, it’s almost entirely used when talking about women. It may have come out of the last generation’s self-esteem movement, especially all the literature about empowering adolescent girls. Perhaps as they matured sexually, it got carried over to also be about sex. I did a bit of research on the term for this article, and many of the hits discussed the importance of the concept in sex ed. So that’s probably what happened. Ridiculous.
@Florence
Wait, what? I hadn’t understood that at all! OK, I have a question for you. Since the current situation is ardently defended by women such as Jessica Valenti and her minions, Amanda Marcotte, Jaclyn Friedman, Rachel Kramer Bussell and other sex-pos types, are they the ones misunderstanding or misinterpreting the objectives of the feminist movement? Because they are the feminist movement today.
Bridging the chasm between these two groups, who largely fly under the radar in our culture, is the challenge..What is a waste of time for all the “have nots” is for the men to pursue the hot sluts, and for the women to pursue alpha dogs. That way lies misery.
.
Very true. The solutions have to be kind of “off-market”, I think, though. Alternative ways of meeting people outside what we call the “SMP”.
“I am a sex-pos feminist. I think that the current situation is not the result of what feminists are fighting for at the core. The current situation is the result of poorly understood or misinterpreted objectives of the feminist movement.”
.
Well, too bad Florence. Men have their “fun with feminists” and if those men choose to, they can go marry a non-feminist. Its the old two list approach – those who you fool around with and those whom you marry. It has never been easier for men who poorly understand and misinterpret the so-called feminist movement. Maybe Parry, Valenti, Friedman and Marcotte can save it by getting men to come around to their way of thinking.
“Bridging the chasm between these two groups, who largely fly under the radar in our culture, is the challenge.”
.
Many men have responded by going outside the culture. That is well documented. Have women? There does not seem to be much evidence of that. Do men truly have more options then?
SW: “Since the current situation is ardently defended by women such as Jessica Valenti and her minions, Amanda Marcotte, Jaclyn Friedman, Rachel Kramer Bussell and other sex-pos types, are they the ones misunderstanding or misinterpreting the objectives of the feminist movement? Because they are the feminist movement today.”
I’m not familiar with some of those names (yes, I’ve heard of Jessica Valenti, but not read her, and I’ve read a little of Amanda Marcotte, but only enough to be disinterested in reading much more), and I’m pretty sure there are nuances to both sex-pos feminists and today’s feminist movement to which I’m totally ignorant. I’d love to have you expand on this, Susan.
Do they really go around saying that the hook-up culture is all that? Thanks.
Is “empowerment” another euphemism to make women feel better or justify their behavior or to get men to understand that it was necessary as part of “making her the person she is today” nonsense? Does achieving empowerment require that men be somehow part of the scene, at least as props? What if men just pay lip service to it as a means to getting laid? Yep, men are just snickering the word empowerment as they walk home in the morning after a night of pounding in some good empowerment…
“One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?” This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
.
That appears funny at the “ha-ha” level because a prenup for a guy with only $1,000 seems silly.
.
It would of course be “HAHAHAHAHAHA” funny if the guy’s family was wealthy but you didn’t know about it, he was dating you because he cared about you and was considering you for marriage–but you blew him off and made it obvious you were just dating him to kill time.
“Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry”.
It’s also inefficient – a waste of time, emotions, effort, and even money spent for things to make you look sexy to men who have no intention to marry you…plus (for those inclined to split the tab) meals. That people would waste so much time doing that is a testament to how lax our culture has become about self-discipline in romantic matters — with the present results you see. Me? I chalk it up to the broader trend of “if it feels good, do it” (i.e., not just in sexual or romantic matters). Sounds more like addiction to excitement and pleasure than anything else.
Florence: There is a “sex hierarchy” and most people will shame people participating in the boxes they do not participate in themselves. I have yet to meet somebody who does not.
If someone can can post this picture, I would much appreciate it.
http://www.interalia.org.pl/pl/artykuly/2006_1/05_whos_renting_these_boys.htm
The “empowerment” of a young woman’s sex appeal is akin to the “empowerment” of winning the lottery. Both will enable you to have some fun experiences and gain you many short-term friends, but if you fritter away your wealth rather than invest it for the future, you’ll end up sad and alone.
filrabit: Yeah, I find Plain Jane admitting that she dates guys she has no intention of marrying is worth more laughter than a guy wanting a prenup, without having apparent reasons to need it. That is if Plain Jane wants to marry at some point of time.
The above post was mine.
“Since the current situation is ardently defended by women such as Jessica Valenti and her minions, Amanda Marcotte, Jaclyn Friedman, Rachel Kramer Bussell and other sex-pos types, are they the ones misunderstanding or misinterpreting the objectives of the feminist movement? Because they are the feminist movement today.”
- TBH, I’ve rarely even heard these names and I don’t even know why you think those women “define” the feminist movement. True sex-positive feminists are Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan and Dorchen Leidholdt. These women focus on issues such as: (1) sexual harassment, (2) pornography, and (3) violence against women and (4) fun-feminism. They have won awards for their work. Andrea Dworkin was former prostitute at the Red Light District in Amsterdam because at the time she found herself with no money, no support and was abused. She describes her experiences, while fighting for respect of sex workers.
.
There is a great article in Wikipedia on sex-positive feminism, and it no where mentions the names of the women you use as an example. Thus, they DO NOT define what sex-positive feminism is. These women may use feminism to justify their actions, because under feminism, sexual freedom is an essential component of women’s freedom, however they DO NOT define the core values of feminism.
Florence: My guess is that sex positive feminism is only positive to some sex and is negative to some sex, but goes around the problem by defining the sex they do not like as “not sex”. I can’t see how sex positive feminists can be positive about a woman wanting to be dominated by a man (or ending up that way) or a man wanting to dominate a woman (or ending up that way).
@ Lavazza
Sex-positive feminism is about protecting women and their decisions when it comes to sexuality. Thus, the women Susan uses as an example, would be protected by feminism for their actions to not be judged or shamed. In addition, “sex-positive feminism” is a fairly new movement. It has not yet been completely and entirely defined. It hasn’t defined which types of sex would be positive and which types of sex would be negative and it probably never will. It is about having the liberty to make your own choice. There are different types of feminists and they often have opposing views. Sex-radical feminists for example, fight for the ability to secure women’s best interest in sexually limiting laws because they distrust the patriarchal organization of our society. They believe that the government blatantly discriminates against women in the area of sexuality. Other feminists identify women’s sexual liberation as the real motive behind the women’s movement (ex: viewing orgasm as a positive thing).
“One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?”This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
That’s pretty funny.”
.
Instead of responding with “silly boy, you’re not hot stuff like you think you are,” I think you should both try another way of looking at it. Tom Leykis explained it thusly: “if you don’t have anything, and think you don’t need a prenup, aren’t you saying you don’t think you will amount to anything?”
.
As I’ve said before, I can take prenups or I can leave them (they’re only tools and not very effective). But it’s funny to watch women shriek and project whenever the topic of them limiting their divorce power in any kind of marginal way comes up. It’s clear women like to go into marriage with the subtextual idea they can “clean him out” if it goes bad, and then cover up the self-interest by claiming it’s “unromantic” to talk about it (which sounds like hamsterism).
.
If you don’t plan on divorcing, why not sign it, put your man’s mind at ease and go on with your happy marriage? I think Susan is dissembling when she argues “women don’t really know or understand the system so they are shocked by talk about prenups.” People like Florence make it clear that women DO understand it and LIKE it that way. As to whether they know it or not, divorce is part of the modern experience – I don’t know a single young person who doesn’t know multiple people whose parents divorced.
It seems impossible for the hetero sex positive cult to succeed if men take what they can get from it but do not fully embrace its core meaning [assuming there is one]. That is, if men don’t play along the whole thing is DOA. So are these “scholars” mentioned above out there asking men nicely for some cooperation?
“Sex-positive feminism is about protecting women and their decisions when it comes to sexuality.”
.
Nice try. Sex-pos is really about women “having their fun” without feeling any consequences. It crucially requires the criminalization of male sexuality, and the criminalization of sex judgment (hence their fatwa against slut shaming).
Florence:
“At its core values, feminism is about social equality of men and women in daily life.”
“Sex-positive feminism is about protecting women and their decisions when it comes to sexuality”
Where is the equality in only protecting one sex?
Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon were sex positive? Nonsense. They were the ones trying to pass anti-porn laws. The sex positive feminists were/are the ones defending sex work, pornography and so on. Totally at odds with MacKinnon and Dworkin.
You’ve said you reviewed the Wikipedia entry. Seems like you have difficulties with reading comprehension, because at the very outset it says this:
.
“Some became involved in the sex-positive feminist movement in response to efforts by anti-pornography feminists, such as Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan and Dorchen Leidholdt, to put pornography at the center of a feminist explanation of women’s oppression (McElroy, 1995). This period of intense debate and acrimony between sex-positive and anti-pornography feminists during the early 1980s is often referred to as the “Feminist Sex Wars“.”
.
That is, MacKinnon and Dworkin were who the sex-pos were reacting *against*.
.
Reading on, we read this:
.
“MacKinnon and Dworkin took the tactic of framing pornography as a civil rights issue, arguing that showing pornography constituted sex discrimination against women. The sex-positive movement response to this argument was that legislation against pornography violates women’s right to free speech. Soon after, a coalition of anti-porn feminists and right-wing groups succeeded in passing a similar ordinance in Indianapolis. This ordinance was later declared unconstitutional by a Federal court.
Rubin writes that anti-pornography feminists exaggerate the dangers of pornography by showing the most shocking pornographic images (such as those associated with sadomasochism) out of context, in a way that implies that the women depicted are actually being raped, rather than emphasizing that these scenes depict fantasies and use actors who have consented to being shown in such a way (Rubin, 1984). Sex-positive feminists argue that access to pornography is as important to women as to men, and that there is nothing inherently degrading to women about pornography (McElroy, 1996; Strossen, 2000). Anti-pornography feminists however disagree, often arguing that the very depiction of such acts leads to the actual acts being encouraged and committed.[6]“
.
MacKinnon and Dworkin were *not* “sex-pos feminists”. They were what the sex-pos feminists were reacting against.
.
So which are you?
“Nice try. Sex-pos is really about women “having their fun” without feeling any consequences. It crucially requires the criminalization of male sexuality, and the criminalization of sex judgment (hence their fatwa against slut shaming).”
.
Thus the euphemisms – empowerment, express their sexuality, learn boundaries – all designed to get men too be sympathetic and not reject them for their easy indulgence when its time for a life partner. But rather than be honest about it, they feel better stating that if sexual past is used as a selection criteria its akin to slut-shaming and this shaming is somehow born from male insecurity and immaturity. In other words, they are whining and pointing fingers and that’s an old female familiar tune.
Florence: You’re raising some interesting points but some aren’t ready to consider them. I think there’s an incredible amount of information about feminism out there, including opposing viewpoints. It’s just that some people have a serious blindspot about their bias against feminism. They absolutely refuse to believe that, like most movements, it has many aspects to it.
Lavazza: Obtaining equality sometimes means first addressing the most drastic cases of mistreatment. Also, there are different types of feminism. Therefore, feminism at its core can still be about equality for men and women while a subsector of feminism is centered on women’s sexual choices.
Equality isn’t merely defined as everyone getting the same thing at the same time because not everyone has the same needs at the same time. Within the feminist movement, there are issues of race, sexuality, socio-economic status, etc. Are there some extremists in the movement? Yes. Does that negate the movement? No. Understanding that is like grasping the concept that the men’s right movement, at its core, isn’t about negating women’s rights.
Octavia: “Obtaining equality sometimes means first addressing the most drastic cases of mistreatment. Also, there are different types of feminism. Therefore, feminism at its core can still be about equality for men and women while a subsector of feminism is centered on women’s sexual choices.”
Feminism at is core is about women’s rights and men’s obligations. As soon as somebody advocates men’s rights or women’s obligations feminists lose interest or start opposing.
There is no case where men are deemed to be in such drastic mistreatment that feminists will give the question more than lip service. This since the solution will involve giving men rights and women obligations.
Regarding what Athlone said…
Just wanted to highlight/note that it supports what I was saying in another thread. Forget the whole alpha/beta thing because people love to then dissect what exactly is an alpha…
There are guys with options and guys without options….THEY LIVE IN 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLDS, and have 2 completely different mentalities when it comes to women and pussy. Guys without options stay with “mean bitches”. Guys with options dump them to the curb.
Their mentality is embodied in this quote from Drake:“She sent me a text but I didn’t even read it*******’cause Pussy’s only pussy and I’ll get it when I need it.”*******
Only a very small minority of guys have the luxury of that mentality. For 80% of guys, pussy is a rare and very valuable thing (as the funny cartoon up top shows) that they will not give up even if the person it is attached to is pretty crappy in other ways.
It’s got to be about validation from a dominant male.
I think that is exactly the dynamic at work.
I agree. This can’t happen at meat markets, bars, etc. to any great degree. That’s why I encourage people to earnestly pursue interests – it could easily happen in a running group, for example, or any intellectual pursuit.
@Joe
To be honest, I can’t quite get a handle on what the feminist movement today is, and I don’t think feminists can either. For starters there is quite a bit of infighting among the various “waves” or generations. The crisis in feminism around porn (pro-porn won) led to the sex-positive movement we see today. On most feminist websites, which is where I get my information, there’s a lot of promotion of NSA sex, and much criticism of “fuddy duddies” like myself who engage in “hand wringing” about “what the younguns are up to.” You get the idea. Those sites also tend to be interested in lobbying for sex workers, against female genital mutilation and some other issues. In fact, the organization that aims to protect sex workers in Thailand is called EMPOWER. There’s a whole other group though – our age – that’s still primarily driven by keeping Roe v. Wade in place. They are strictly “choice” feminists. And then there’s a renegade group of women – Naomi Wolf to some degree, and Camille Paglia who bring refreshing honesty and objective, logical reasoning to their arguments, even if I don’t agree with them all the time (I do mostly agree with CP). That’s my understanding of it – I tend to draw fire from the sex-pos types, for obvious reasons.
Susan, thank you. Camille Paglia is an interesting case. She’s written enough that I know I’m not completely up on her thoughts, but from what I have read she’s been an astute observer and does indeed treat the topics she approaches with candor and a large degree of objectivity. Can’t ask for much more than that.
Being from that infamous “Vietnam Era” it’s more difficult for me to separate the political from the personal when talking about female empowerment. It seems like establishment feminism died when Bill Clinton dithered on the definition of the word “is”, but it hardly changed things for women in general, did it?
All that doesn’t seem to have much to do with personal empowerment. I mean, when it comes down to it over the years I’ve had very nearly as many females signing my timecard at work as males. I laughed at the picture up top and its caption with a wry sense of knowing humor. Been there, done that. Personal empowerment was just never a question, I thought, except in that we all feel impotent at times, especially when we’re young.
@Lavazza, “Plain Jane: Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry, so it seems you are going for option a).”
So YOU want to marry people before you get to know them?
@ Mike C, “Their mentality is embodied in this quote from Drake:“She sent me a text but I didn’t even read it*******’cause Pussy’s only pussy and I’ll get it when I need it.”*******
….
“Only a very small minority of guys have the luxury of that mentality. For 80% of guys, pussy is a rare and very valuable thing (as the funny cartoon up top shows) that they will not give up even if the person it is attached to is pretty crappy in other ways.”
————————–
Interesting that you refer to that disgusting attitude as a “luxury”.
So whoever coined the phrase “all men are pigs” was right, I guess. Even the faux “nice guys”.
With “friends” like that – who needs enemies?
Camille Paglia fans, keep in mind that she’s a lesbian.
Interesting that you refer to that disgusting attitude as a “luxury”.
Probably not the best choice of word on my part. That said, by zeroing in on just that part, you BOTH misinterpret my intent and MISS THE LARGER POINT. Again, MOST WOMEN are COMPLETELY OBLIVOUS to the fact that in the current SMP, in terms of sexual activity it is a land of tremendous haves and HAVE NOTs so I generally try to emphasize and reiterate that point at every opportunity. Women really need to get this concept into their heads in order to understand why many men feel the way they do.
@Plain Jane Yes, it’s true – I knew that a long time ago. From what I have seen of her writings, it has no bearing on her objectivity and candor, however.
Also, fwiw, “Plain Jane”, in another post you appeared to be an apologist for blatant cheating, and advocating do X to keep the dope unsuspecting. IMO, that is an infinitely more “disgusting attitude”.
Plain Jane:
“@Lavazza, “Plain Jane: Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry, so it seems you are going for option a).”
So YOU want to marry people before you get to know them?”
Sorry, I did not understand that I should have read “no intention” as “as yet undecided” or “for the moment without any intentions one way or the other”.
@Joe, I think her lesbianism affects her work.
*
@ Mike C, ”MOST WOMEN are COMPLETELY OBLIVOUS to the fact that in the current SMP, in terms of sexual activity it is a land of tremendous haves and HAVE NOTs so I generally try to emphasize and reiterate that point at every opportunity. Women really need to get this concept into their heads in order to understand why many men feel the way they do.”
—–
Mike, if you read “the manosphere” blogs their viewpoint is that women ARE well aware of the imbalances in the sexual market place and use them to their advantage.
The have-nots are more than willing to marry women who have much more active sexual pasts than they do. In fact, they are GRATEFUL that a woman even considers them. They are happy that someone FINALLY wants to settle down with them and give them regular access to sex – even if its not every day, it is sure as hell MORE than they ever got before.
This is one reason why women appear to be so stuck up. Because they know have-nots are desperate for them one way or another.
Women are the givers in this market.
Men are the dogs grateful for scraps.
“Women are the givers in this market.”
.
and obviously, they have LOTS of giving competition
.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/
,
Amid the proliferation of dating websites and matchmaking reality shows, venturing abroad for love has taken on a more acceptable mien.
.
But of course, nobody here is surprised that the so-called imbalance would result in a market correction. Thus the nature of imbalances.
As I said in another thread, marriage is the only reasonable guarantor of fidelity for a couple. It’s funny how everyone seems to think these are all new problems that have never occurred before in all of human history.
.
Marriage is not just a pretty sacrament (in fact, as Plain Jane and other femineers have been quick to point out, the vows are often peripheral); it wasn’t born from a vacuum. There is a reason it existed, there’s a reason it was pushed as the only serious form of intersex relations and there’s a reason it was held in the utmost regard. It protects women (proof of fidelity and a binding oath, which is better than nothing) and men (better odds of paternity, better odds of finding a partner full stop). How arrogant we are to think none of this was understood by our forebearers.
@Plain Jane,
If women had all the power in the SMP and were using it, I’m pretty sure this blog wouldn’t exist.
“For the American male it is easy to find an old fashion wife in any other country, to appease him at the end of a hard day at work, raise his children, and cook his meals.
What happens to the American Female? There are no males any where in the world able to cook her meals, massage her feet, raise her children, but the few American males able to comprehend, whose personality allows them to be the care giver instead of the provider.”
Well, there you have it. And from an American woman.
http://www.helium.com/items/612864-reasons-why-so-many-american-men-marry-foreign-women
“For the American male it is easy to find an old fashion wife in any other country, to appease him at the end of a hard day at work, raise his children, and cook his meals.
.
What happens to the American Female? There are no males any where in the world able to cook her meals, massage her feet, raise her children, but the few American males able to comprehend, whose personality allows them to be the care giver instead of the provider.”
.
Well, there you have it. And from an American woman.
.
http://www.helium.com/items/612864-reasons-why-so-many-american-men-marry-foreign-women
Thus the euphemisms – empowerment, express their sexuality, learn boundaries – all designed to get men too be sympathetic and not reject them for their easy indulgence when its time for a life partner. But rather than be honest about it, they feel better stating that if sexual past is used as a selection criteria its akin to slut-shaming and this shaming is somehow born from male insecurity and immaturity. In other words, they are whining and pointing fingers and that’s an old female familiar tune.
.
This idea that sex-positivism is a new thing that femmes are trying to sell in this new era of pioneering youthdom is a total crock. Sex-positivism has been sold before; it was called feminism and it was during the 60s. Women intentionally use non-committal phrases like “exploring boundaries”, “having responsible fun” etc. because a) they titillate a woman’s sense of strength and freedom, especially in the prime of her youth when the world is at her feet and b) they’re vague enough that men assume it means “more sex for me”. Only one of these actually comes to fruition.
Sorry for the double post. Of course, not all men will overcome laziness and really take control of their matrimonial destinies. And of those who do, even fewer will live in another culture thus shielding their wives from behaviors that are in conflict with preparation for life long marriage and dedication.
The picture issued at the top of the post is hilarious and oh so true!
I wish I had that kind of mystical power over women with my 7″ magic wand.
But alas, there is no equality between the sexes.
I always laugh at the feminist canard of “men are afraid of women getting equality in the workplace, that’s why they’re looking for foreign women” because it isn’t true. Reasons why men may prefer foreign women include:
1) American women are getting fatter and fatter (so are men, but whatever), and securing a thin foreign woman looks more and more enticing every year because of it.
2) To a foreign woman, being American itself is a DHV, so Americans with foreign women don’t need to run game to keep their wives happy and their sex lives active.
3) Foreign women are less likely to divorce (since they have nothing to go back to), unless they know they can take advantage of the divorce courts favoring women.
4) Foreign women that select American men play up their feminineness as much as possible to secure a mate. I’m not going to deny that men prefer a woman who can cook and clean, just as women prefer a man earning $300+ K/year.
“What happens to the American Female? There are no males any where in the world able to cook her meals, massage her feet, raise her children, but the few American males able to comprehend, whose personality allows them to be the care giver instead of the provider.”
—
You missed my comments recommending inter-racial and inter-cultural dating, scoping out the foreign exchange students and the like on campus, etc.
I’ve never had romantic luck with my fellow citizens of my same race. But when I started dating interracially AND internationally, expats and the like, I met with great success and they tend to be more cultured/refined and romantic than American men of my race. American men of my race are often jaded and ruined.
I also recommend American women to travel.
I’ve travelled for school, work and pleasure and have met wonderful people and gotten marriage proposals.
The fact is though that MOST Americans will not do this – either male or female.
Travelling and living amongst diverse cultures is awesome though. I highly recommend it to man, woman, child.
Re: The Foreign Bride option…
.
It strikes me as very interesting that, considering all the women available in the USA, and all the paperwork and effort to marry a foreign woman, that there’s a dearth of websites by American women asking “what’s wrong with us that a guy says no thanks to the 200M American women?”
The women I mentioned are the young faces of feminism on the American scene today. They lecture at colleges, sit on panels, and write books. Lena Chen and Shelby Knox are two more that have made a name for themselves. MacKinnon and Dworkin were actually opponents to spf, and in general were pretty much anti-sex.
I didn’t know Andrea Dworkin was a prostitute. *Shudder* I can’t imagine she paid the bills with that gig – she’s the ugliest woman I have ever laid eyes on.
So? Does that make her a less brilliant thinker and writer?
This is not how I perceive the SMP working. And the choice of phrasing is unfortunate.
Susan, maybe Paglia has changed lately but I remember reading some of her earlier stuff and she came off as a woman-hater, like the kind you read at The Spearhead. I got the feeling that she was a misognist male stuck in a female body.
I also find the concept of a lesbian telling heterosexual women how they should behave in order to get and keep a man beyond ridiculous.
Regarding Andrea Dworkin, I’ve not read any of her works but I have read a short summary on her life and she was severly abused throughout her childhood, youth and beyond. I feel compassion and empathy for her. Had I gone through what she did I most likely would not be alive. She’s a strong person for coming out of that. If she’s “angry” I ask anyone else who might go through that – wouldn’t YOU be?
The numbers are small enough that it generally doesn’t make the news or get any real kind of coverage. Also, most Americans assume, rightly or wrongly, that men who seek foreign brides are men who have failed in our own SMP.
@Susan, “This is not how I perceive the SMP working.”
Yes but you have to admit its how many men see it working. You’ve read Roissy, The Spearhead, etc. That’s what they all say. That women know the power they wield over desperate guys and they wield it to their advantage. Those men are very pissed off over this.
I’m not saying it’s right, from either the male or female side, I’m just saying thats how these guys perceive it and they might be right to some degree.
“I’m not saying it’s right, from either the male or female side, I’m just saying thats how these guys perceive it and they might be right to some degree.”
.
Then, what would be the expected view of American women? How are they, as human beings, to be perceived? As pillars of their community? As upstanding citizens? or ego maniacal haughty entitlement queens? Will mommy be respected by her children? Admired by her husband unconditionally?
“Then, what would be the expected view of American women? How are they, as human beings, to be perceived?”
The same as American men.
I didn’t know Andrea Dworkin was a prostitute. *Shudder* I can’t imagine she paid the bills with that gig – she’s the ugliest woman I have ever laid eyes on.
@Susan
Must of the skankiest women I ever seen had been prostitutes. One of my Alpha friends told me that women got it this one wrong, beauty is important but variety is more and looking for a lady of the night is like shopping for underwear: when you can afford it you get silk briefs but if you need underwear a 1 dollar boxers will do, so she could had supported herself very well if she was around enough and got some regulars.
“what’s wrong with us that a guy says no thanks to the 200M American women?”
I had seen an explosion of sites made by males complaining about American women: fireyourwife.com, boycottamericanwomen.blogspot.com …One will think that no matter how insecure you think men are if you see a lot of them chanting the same tune you will check out your theories just to make sure…no? Nevermind.
Marriage is not just a pretty sacrament (in fact, as Plain Jane and other femineers have been quick to point out, the vows are often peripheral); it wasn’t born from a vacuum. There is a reason it existed, there’s a reason it was pushed as the only serious form of intersex relations and there’s a reason it was held in the utmost regard. It protects women (proof of fidelity and a binding oath, which is better than nothing) and men (better odds of paternity, better odds of finding a partner full stop). How arrogant we are to think none of this was understood by our forebearers.
Indeed one of the things I criticize the most of feminism that instead of checking what used to work and what not and tried to keep the good while fighting the bad they decided. “Marriage is institutionalized rape! Let’s destroy it!” with no measuring the consequences.
Florence: There is a “sex hierarchy” and most people will shame people participating in the boxes they do not participate in themselves. I have yet to meet somebody who does not.
WORD! Try to find a feminist praising the virtues of virginity as a valid sexual choice. Virginity is mocked and shamed as repressed, prude, close minded, patriarchy puppet and they claim that virgins will regret not having experience that they will cheat and all that jazz. Is completely normal among sex camps to shame each other.
Sorry for the double post. Need to get used to the new formatting.
.
Susan, maybe Paglia has changed lately but I remember reading some of her earlier stuff and she came off as a woman-hater, like the kind you read at The Spearhead. I got the feeling that she was a misognist male stuck in a female body.I also find the concept of a lesbian telling heterosexual women how they should behave in order to get and keep a man beyond ridiculous..
.
How can she be a woman hater while being a lesbian? By the way, from what I understand she is a bisexual woman who has been in relationships with women, rather than a “cut and dried” lesbian. Total, cut and dried lesbians tend to hate men because we serve no purpose for them whatsoever. Paglia doesn’t hate men, but she can’t realistically be seen as hating women either — she’s chosen to be in relationships with women! Doesn’t sound like hate to me..Is she frank about women? Yep. And, being someone who has chosen to be in relationships with women, she can have a perspective that seems male — because she’s in the position of having relationships with women, and has that in common with most men. Frankly I think many lesbians or bisexual women share quite a few of her perspectives about women in the context of relationships, but hold their tongues for ideological reasons and not wanting to say something off script. But not Camille. She’s a truth teller, which is why she’s hated by feminists.
“The same as American men.”
.
You wold be right if they behaved the same. Its been discussed and proven right here on HUS that is not the case. American women are perceived differently than American men and women globally. There is a minority who carry a high degree of dignity, but they tend to get snatched up while quite young. The rest are left to explore this, experiment with that, rant, pontificate, demand not to be shamed…etc
.
This is the world view of how American women treat others – are these words familiar to you?:
.
The have-nots are more than willing to marry women who have much more active sexual pasts than they do. In fact, they are GRATEFUL that a woman even considers them. They are happy that someone FINALLY wants to settle down with them and give them regular access to sex – even if its not every day, it is sure as hell MORE than they ever got before.
.
Not exactly what qualifies to be a good citizen or worthy of motherhood.
Camille Pagila is alright, although her obsessive genderism can grow tiresome, as does her shock jock libertarianism. Christina Hoff Summers I find less favorable; she’s basically a feminist trying to ‘rescue’ feminism.
You wold be right if they behaved the same. Its been discussed and proven right here on HUS that is not the case. American women are perceived differently than American men and women globally. There is a minority who carry a high degree of dignity, but they tend to get snatched up while quite young. The rest are left to explore this, experiment with that, rant, pontificate, demand not to be shamed…etc
I think the best proof that there is a different perception of American women is that we don’t have the same amount of mail order husbands that we have of mail order brides. We know that were there is a market there is money to me make.
“We know that were there is a market there is money to me make.”
.
Yep, Match.com makes a FORTUNE from its separate international site. So does eharmony. Thousands of women from developing countries have FREE memberships on those sites. But I assume that few if any foreign men are lining up to marry American women via dating services. Also, foreign men from developing nations tend to be far far more domineering [read: less feminists brainwashed] than American men and that would lead to conflicts with hell-bent-on-equality American women.
@Plain Jane,
“I also find the concept of a lesbian telling heterosexual women how they should behave in order to get and keep a man beyond ridiculous.”
.
I think this is the first time I’ve been 100% in agreement with something that Plain Jane has said. I’d go a little farther though, and say that women who want to be in a long-term marriage with an alpha male should seek out advice from women who’ve successfully done so. I suspect most of those women are not slutty, and are in fact very supportive of their husbands in a traditional kind of way.
Dworkin was sex-positive?
“Male-dominant gender hierarchy, however, seems immune to reform … This may be because intercourse itself is immune to reform. In it, female is bottom, stigmatized. Intercourse remains a means or the means of physiologically making a woman inferior: communicating to her cell by cell her own inferior status, impressing it on her, burning it into her by shoving it into her, over and over, pushing and thrusting until she gives up and gives in—which is called surrender in the male lexicon. In the experience of intercourse, she loses the Capacity for integrity because her body—the basis of privacy and freedom in the material world for all human beings—is entered and occupied; the boundaries of her physical body are—neutrally speaking—violated… Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men’s contempt for women.”
In fairness, Dworkins later backtracked claimed she was “misinterpreted”.
One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?” This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
A man’s value increases with age, a woman’s value decreases with age. These are biological facts.
So the man in question currently has little in the way of assets. As the years accumulate, so does his bank account. As a woman’s years accumulate… well, no comment.
A poor, young man would do well to get a pre-nup.
Ashton Kutcher – the moderately articulate man’s Keanu Reeves.
Oh yeah, and congratulations on the Brainz, Susan.
I might also add that her empowered at night/distraught in the morning wave is just a small data point that reflects the long-term rise and fall of that dating/mating strategy.
Kind of a fractal thing, sorta.
Hi Plain socalled Jane,
Still talking outta the side of your neck, I see.:)
.
Replies below:
.
PJ: You missed my comments recommending inter-racial and inter-cultural dating, scoping out the foreign exchange students and the like on campus, etc.
.
O: No, no one’s “missed it”. No one’s buying what you’re selling, its just you have yet to figure that out yet.
.
PJ: I’ve never had romantic luck with my fellow citizens of my same race.
.
O: You mean other White guys? No need to be coy about it, you know who. Come on with it!
.
PJ: But when I started dating interracially AND internationally, expats and the like, I met with great success and they tend to be more cultured/refined and romantic than American men of my race. American men of my race are often jaded and ruined.
.
PJ: Then I ask you the same thing I’ve asked the guys who have argued that American Women are the worst: why are you still here in the States? Why haven’t you moved abroad where all te great guys actually are? Please explain?
.
PJ: I also recommend American women to travel.
.
O: Sure; hopefully they’ll decide to stay over there! That’ll definitely be a good thing. You could lead the way…
.
PJ: I’ve travelled for school, work and pleasure and have met wonderful people and gotten marriage proposals.
.
O: ANd you turned all these wonderful marital proposals from all these refined and cultured Men for what reason now? Sorry, I missed that part…
.
PJ: The fact is though that MOST Americans will not do this – either male or female.
.
O: False. Some of the world’s largest businesses thrive on American tourism.
.
PJ: Travelling and living amongst diverse cultures is awesome though. I highly recommend it to man, woman, child.
.
O: PJ, you aren’t talking to ingrates here. We all know what airplanes look like, if and when we wanna raise up, we know what to do, OK?
O.
Obsidian: LOL!
On the topic of intercultural and international dating, I would like to point out that in the EU, it is extremely common and even fashionable to date people from another EU or North American Country. I know a guy who puts a flag on each country he has had a gf from. I myself have had an English, Dutch, and a Canadian bf, but that is because I’ve lived in different places for long years. EU men and women are very open to dating people from other countries and the US is one of their favorites, along with Canada and Australia. EXPAT and international drinks are constantly organized in countries such as The Netherlands, where the locals can meet the internationals. There are a lot of Americans (both women and men) married and living in Europe. The world gets smaller and smaller and more interconnected. As for “foreign women” being “old-fashioned”, you must be clearer on which “forein women” and in which aspect are they more old-fashioned. If you mean fashion in the sense of way of dressing, the US is actually lagging behind. Most of the fashion is created outside of the US. As for other aspects of the modern woman, I find the American society slightly more conservative, especially in the southern states. In the EU, people do not tolerate racism and discrimination against people with various sexual orientations. In very liberal countries such as The Netherlands, prostitution, soft drugs, and same-sex marriages are legal and yet the country is one of the richest amongst EU countries and having highest standards of living worldwide. Some EU countries have much higher life-expectancies than the US does, even though most of the modern medical equipment and major break-through scientific findings still occur in the US.
.
@ Matt T
“To a foreign woman, being American itself is a DHV, so Americans with foreign women don’t need to run game to keep their wives happy and their sex lives active.”
- That is a lie. Get over yourself! People will not marry you only because you are an American.
“Foreign women that select American men play up their feminineness as much as possible to secure a mate. I’m not going to deny that men prefer a woman who can cook and clean, just as women prefer a man earning $300+ K/year.”
- If you make 100, 200, or 300+K/year, then you should be able to marry comfortably in the US. I am sure that there are thousands of females there who don’t make nowhere near that and that women who do make this kind of money would be more than happy to marry a guy who makes the same kind of money as them.
@ PJ
“@Joe, I think her lesbianism affects her work. ”
- People who have a different sexual orientation are often very intellectual, talented and smart. One’s sexual orientation has little to do with their work.
Any woman prioritizing the wielding of power over men is not interested in exercising it over male guys who are not already successful with women. I don’t think this comment makes any sense.
Florence…
“In the EU, people do not tolerate racism”…actually it seems that a great deal of anti-Semitism is being tolerated in Europe. See for example this Washington Post article by a member of the British House of Commons, who says “Hatred of Jews has reached new heights in Europe”
Don’t know if I can include mutiple links in the same comment, but a rabbi in Germany recently asserted that “It is not safe for Jews to walk around the state of Brandenburg in Germany while wearing a yarmulke or other visible symbol of Judaism, the state’s new chief Rabbi Shaul Nekrich said in an interview with the Berliner Zeitung published January 5. It is very dangerous for a Jew to wear a kippah, he said, unless “someone is versed in martial arts.”
In addition to the toleration of anti-Semitism, there is plenty of evidence that many European governments and societies have bee far too tolerant of the abuse of women–both Muslim women and non-Muslim women–by Islamic fundamentalists and extremists.
I appreciate Sommers because she has correctly identified (and written a book about) how feminism is failing boys, especially in schools. She was kicked out of the corps for that.
@ Susan
“The women I mentioned are the young faces of feminism on the American scene today. They lecture at colleges, sit on panels, and write books. Lena Chen and Shelby Knox are two more that have made a name for themselves.”
- If anything, I’d congratulate them rather than shame them. Ms Parry has “walked the walk” for us young women and publicly shares her experiences so that we can learn from them and make our own choices later in life. As a young woman, I will not make the same choices as her per say, but I respect her work and I respect the fact that she is fighting for the cause, just like I respect and appreciate you for creating this blog, which has the purpose of helping young women make better decisions at the SMP. I have learned a ton by being on it.
.
“I can’t quite get a handle on what the feminist movement today is, and I don’t think feminists can either”
- I agree with that. Part of the reason is that the feminist movement is fairly young and reflects the views of many different people, who often contradict each other. It is hard to point at one particular feminist and say that s/he defines the feminist movement more than another. Still, there remains a gap in the understanding of the causes of the gender gap, whether biological or social. What is more important is that the people involved in the movement are all fighting for a common cause.
In addition, the feminist movement is a free movement and anyone can participate and say/do whatever they feel is right, even if it is not necessarily correct.
“you must be clear on which foreign women”
.
In the vastly larger world with very few exceptions, American women do not “date” internationally. They are very hung up on a rigidly defined relationship paradigm and need to be in a place where there is at least a chance of being treated “equally” by men [and can have a latte]. Good luck outside of North America, Western Europe or Australia.
.
When a man “dates” internationally seeking long-term marital success with a woman enriched by her family and not empowered by sexual recreation or some nonsense movement she has never even heard of, he DOES NOT go to Western Europe, Australia or other American clone nation.
.
Is that “clear” now?
@GudEnuf
Thanks for that Dworkin quote – she’s often quoted as saying “All sex is rape” but I think that is incorrect. What you have here sums it up accurately. As for claiming one has been misinterpreted, that is the frequent refuge for insincerely apologies…”I’m sorry you got mad.”
Yes, if he is a creative, entrepreneurial sort who has big plans and ideas. Plain Jane said that this guy worked in a low paying job and moved back in with his parents. Based on Jane’s comments, I think she’s a bit older – so this guy probably isn’t going places. I think the more relevant question is why Jane would even be dating a person with these prospects when she is looking for a partner.
“she is fighting for the cause”
.
This so-called “cause” goes nowhere if men do not accept. The marriage strike. Developing countries seen as a wife mecca. This blog. All signs of a failing cause.
Hey, thanks!
@Obsidian
I’ll second that LOL. Plain Jane really annoys the hell out of you, haha.
@Florence
I’ve always heard that foreign men find American women loud, brash and unattractive. I dated a Dutch guy back in the day that I met in Europe and he was quite eager, but that was the early 80s, and American culture has gotten considerably worse since then…
@ Abbot
“[.....] other American clone nation”
.
Whaaaaaaat????? You must be kidding me!!!! If you think that those nations are in anyway similar or clones of America, you must really get out and see how the rest of the world lives!!!
@Florence
Thanks for your kind feedback about HUS. And I agree that Ms. Parry deserves credit for her honesty. It can’t be pleasant to share such a story with the massive online audience that The Frisky has. She has shared the details of her sex life online, a move that may come back to haunt her, so I do applaud her courage.
.
I disagree with this completely. Several people have mentioned Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, two women who are most definitely not welcome in the corps. The women who carry the flag are extremely judgmental about who is a “real” feminist. Just look at the recent uproar about Sarah Palin and other conservative women who claim to be feminist. In general, the feminist attitude toward interlopers is “It’s my way or the highway.”
The subject here is women who best qualify for marriage. Those women live in countries south of Texas and to some extent Eastern Europe, FSU and parts of Asia. I do not believe any more clarity is needed.
“its my way or the highway”
.
That is also the attitude directed at men. Increasingly, men are happily taking the highway. Without men on board, the “movement” will collapse much faster. The rejection of a few dissenting women is meaningless in comparison.
@ Susan
“I’ve always heard that foreign men find American women loud, brash and unattractive. I dated a Dutch guy back in the day that I met in Europe and he was quite eager, but that was the early 80s, and American culture has gotten considerably worse since then…”
.
- I also keep hearing that, but it has only been in recent years. However, most men are intelligent enough to know that this is a bold generalization given the fact that the USA is a very large and very diverse country. Most of them are quite interested in having an American or a Canadian gf, especially if their work often takes them to N. America on business trips. Men are particularly excited at the idea of exploring a girl who is different than the crowd of girls they are used to in their home countries and so are women to some extent and that is what makes intercultural relationships work-out very well sometimes. In other words, people want something different than what they are used to at home, even if what they are used to isn’t necessarily bad. A guy I know from the UK, dated a girl from Phoenix, AZ for 5 years! She had however moved to the UK for school/work. The biggest problem with intercultural dating is that sooner or later one of the two partners either has to move back or decide to stay. If the connection hasn’t become strong enough for people to make marital commitments, people usually just move-on.
@ Abbot
“Those women live in countries south of Texas and to some extent Eastern Europe, FSU and parts of Asia. I do not believe any more clarity is needed. ”
.
Most of Eastern Europe is now part of the EU. EU men definitely present a good competition against American men for women from Eastern Europe and Russia. The economical situation there is rapidly improving, allowing women to study in prestigious European schools, be economically independent and to have more freedom to select a man.
.
On that note, I think there is nothing wrong for men to date chicks from countries south of Texas, Asia, the EU and others. Many men find Asian chicks extremely good looking. Not to mention that a non-American wife, would probably teach your children more than one language and would enrich their cultural knowledge. I would strongly encourage men and women to engage more in intercultural dating. You never know whom you might fall in love with!
A lot of people seem to attribute Dworkin’s ideas to her history as a prostitute, but the odd thing was that many of the sex-positive feminists who really disagreed with Dworkin were former prostitutes and porn stars. It’s certainly not the case that all prostitutes have Dworkin’s view of sex — Tracy Quan is a notable example of a contra case. I think Dworkin’s views had more to do with the ideas floating around in her brain than her history as a prostitute. Abuse and mental illness are probably more to blame for her hatemongering than prostitution was.
.
Cathy Young had an interesting obituary in Reason magazine here: http://reason.com/archives/2005/04/19/womans-hating.
@PJ
Responding to your question in the other thread since it’s relevant here. Yes, I’ve lived among a variety of age groups and different socioeconomic levels. The majority have been people my age.
.
All Americans have a lousy image abroad. I was often told, “you’re not how I thought you’d be”. From a SMP standpoint though women definitely seem to have it worse. You should hear what Russian men say about American women. Out at the clubs I watched as non of the American girls got approached and when they finally approached guys to dance, they were shot down.
.
Ladies, please don’t get the idea that were just women-bashing here. Most American men have lost their essential masculinity in the same way it seems women are losing their femininity. People keep mentioning the alpha/beta divide without noting that in the past the divide wasnt likely so pronounced. Men are stagnating and becoming ever more beta and omega while women are filling the vacuum wondering where all the real men are.
.
Anyway, fwiw, I’ve dated women from the UK, Russia, France, and been close with a lot of s
Spaniards. They honestly just seemed to appreciate me more than American women do, and corroborated my own view of my SMV. There was less of an edge to them. Granted the Russian and Brit both had issues of their own of another nature. Also I think expat dating is usually doomed to fail once the original novelty is worn off, unless one of you truly loves the others culture enough to assimilate yourself.
.
As far as empowerment, the “feeling like a goddess” seems like a perfect characterization of the dynamic behind the term. Personally I’m just against it in the same way I’m against the self esteem movement and post modernist thought. I think a lot of these rationalizations are thinly veiled attempts by insecure people to get instant validation/power fixes/etc, who only later find out that being so utterly self serving is really a lonely, empty way to live.
“I think there is nothing wrong for men to date chicks from countries south of Texas, Asia, the EU and others”
That’s nice, but really, whether you or any American women considers it wrong or right is irrelevant.
“Not to mention that a non-American wife, would probably teach your children more than one language and would enrich their cultural knowledge.”
Not to mention that a non-American originating from most of the planet would have no need to “explore her sexuality” or whatever the feel-good euphemism du jour is. Not to mention that she has not been to spring break, spent many years drinking and screwing in her twenties thereby gutting her emotions and reproductive organs, being brainwashed by Screw and the City etc. In other words, her outlook is wife and mother. Men who do not want wife and mother should leave these jewels alone.
@ Susan
“Several people have mentioned Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, two women who are most definitely not welcome in the corps. The women who carry the flag are extremely judgmental about who is a “real” feminist. Just look at the recent uproar about Sarah Palin and other conservative women who claim to be feminist. In general, the feminist attitude toward interlopers is “It’s my way or the highway.”
.
You are right about that. Thanks for pointing it out. People would certainly raise their voices (they actually have a moral obligation to do so) when they strongly disagree with someone, such as in the case of Sarah Palin. I am however, not entirely sure if one can rightfully proclaim themselves as “the real feminist”, given the fact that exact criteria for what a real feminist is, haven’t been developed yet. Certainly, a feminist is not just an evil, promiscuous woman with hairy legs.
@ Abbot
Screw and the City is watched internationally, unless you go to a country where people don’t have TVs. Not every woman who watches it is necessarily “brainwashed” by it.
Well, less than half the households in Latin America have TV’s. Even so, a show like that in isolation of all the other garbage means that women there could not relate to it as they do not participate in those behaviors. For the most part, they see American women as matrimonial pariah. Its good for American women that few American men travel through the region…for now.
Alpha men are making out like gangbusters, Betas are screwed, and most women don’t really see a problem with themselves–it’s the dearth of “good men.”
.
Starting to think American society’s doomed (and not just for the financial crisis that hasn’t hit yet).
@everyone advocating international dating as some kind of cure-all: Plain Jane and the guys
Dating someone from a foreign culture is one thing. Marrying a foreigner and raising children with one is a whole different ball game. Yes, lots of couples make it work, but generally the more dissimilar two people’s backgrounds, the more potential for discord and misunderstanding. As with the money discussion on the other thread, different national backgrounds don’t have to be a dealbreaker but, all things being equal, difference in this area is a significant* minus.
My fiancee and I have the mildest version of a nationality difference (I’m a very Americanized foreigner, we’re the same religion and same ethnicity), and it’s still challenging to resolve the differences in some of our unspoken assumptions. And we don’t even have kids yet.
*It’s a much smaller minus if one party is completely expatted to the other’s country and has essentially decided to adopt that nationality and culture wholesale.
If American women do not regain respect among men and go back to marrying at a much younger age then those “good men” will go off and find women who will. Everyone gets what they want if they try.
Sox,
.
“Anyway, fwiw, I’ve dated women from the UK, Russia, France, and been close with a lot of Spaniards. They honestly just seemed to appreciate me more than American women do, and corroborated my own view of my SMV. There was less of an edge to them.”
.
Much of white-collar feminism in this country appears to be summed up thusly: “don’t take any shit from men.” This, what FredOnEverything calls “the chip,” is now a part of social-education and self-esteem programming as early as middle school, so it’s no surprise men feel undervalued by women. European women (my experience has mostly been with grad students) are no shrinking violets, but they generally aren’t going to “step to you” until there’s a good reason to do so.
.
As to the American image abroad, a good number of women I’ve seen traveling abroad dress like Snookie or someone like that – spaghetti straps or tube tops, Uggs, tacky skirts, loud sunglasses, bad-taste makeup and an overall discongruent image. All of them? Not at all, but enough to confirm their preconception that Americans are skanky with bad fashion taste and lousy attitudes.
.
My experience is that in Mexico as well as Spain, the south of France and Italy, it’s a matter of pride to not “dress poor.” Maybe there’s more of a class system people are playing against? It’s a class marker to dress well, and people wear their Sunday best on Sunday no matter what class they are. It’s not like the US where spring is the time to break out the tank tops and budget flipflops.
.
Americans in Europe are perceived as loud and offensive, but simultaneously naive and standoffish wrt things like bargaining (pyrotechnic bargaining is a way of life in Mexico and the Riviera) and greeting people (smooching on the cheek is de rigeur, with up to three kisses required in places like Belgium).
.
For an American man (or woman) to be a polite guest – to take the time to study up and emulate the styles and customs of the place they are visiting – is a compliment to the locals and a big DHV.
“It’s a much smaller minus if one party is completely expatted to the other’s country and has essentially decided to adopt that nationality and culture wholesale.”
.
That is happening more with men who retire early and can make their savings more than triple in value in a lot of countries. Its a huge plus because the divorce rates are much much lower and she can’t take you to the cleaners anyway. The risk of cultural difference pales in comparison to the risk of trying to stay married to an American in the US. When men are done providing empowerment services to multiple American women, they should look to settle in a foreign country, marry and prosper. Simply because….they can.
“For an American man (or woman) to be a polite guest – to take the time to study up and emulate the styles and customs of the place they are visiting – is a compliment to the locals and a big DHV.”
-ABSOLUTELY!!! I would add that trying to learn at least a few phrases in the language spoken by the host country also makes a great impression.
@Brendan
Cathy Young is another writer I respect enormously, also vilified by feminists. I loved her concluding line:
Perhaps not, but there is a long list of things that a feminist isn’t. Pro-life for example. Why is that?
I believe that for women now in college and 5 years on either side, SATC was the most damaging American cultural influence in a generation.
@Susan,
“Perhaps not, but there is a long list of things that a feminist isn’t. Pro-life for example. Why is that?”
.
I’d guess it’s because children are an inconvenience to the freedom to live life the way you want to. Also, studies have shown that women are much more conservative after they have children, which conflicts with feminism’s desire to grow its membership. There’s also the argument that the patriarchy intends to constrict women’s freedom by forcing women to bring children to term. How that’s different from a patriarchy preventing women from killing their one-year-old child because he’s cramping their style at the singles clubs is a matter of the calendar.
“I believe that for women now in college and 5 years on either side, SATC was the most damaging American cultural influence in a generation.”
.
Is that revelation known out in the mainstream society? Some years ago, I saw gaggles of young women going to the theaters like a mob to celebrate this sort of thing. That was very telling. What is most shocking is that to them its a given that men will go along with this cultural attitude that is owned only by half the dating population. Simply amazing. On a first date, any women who would go on about how much she liked that show put her permanently on the non-wife list. A good weeder-outer.
This article from the economist, in tandem with the post above, forces us to ask whether or not the “repressive” social mores of the past actually arose from people’s natural needs as social animals to pair bond?
Whenever I browse HUS, I’m almost surprised at how conservative Susan Walsh appears. On this particular issue, it seems as if the progressive forces of science, etc. appear to swing the other way.
Always interesting.
~PJL.
Florence you don’t know what your talking about
Most of the Dashing romantic foreign male archetypes, that american women admire, happen to aslo come from tradition cultures, with strong patriarchal values.
Many a hilarious tale, of american women finding out that somethings just don’t fly when the romance is over and she finally meets the keeper of tradition and family propreity:
The Mother in Law – who’ll watch her with a suaronian eye for any undeserving behaviour for her ever-so dearly loved son.
@PJL
Good to see you! I’d missed that article, thanks for sending it along.
Really? How come? FWIW, I would agree that my views on sex and relationships are fairly conservative, though I am no supporter of abstinence. However, I’d like to note that my views are not based on politics or any idea of what is moral – I try to stick strictly to what works. The article at The Economist is interesting because it measures precisely that.
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean here. The article swings toward the conservative, don’t you think?
@ DF, “Florence you don’t know what your talking about
Most of the Dashing romantic foreign male archetypes, that american women admire, happen to aslo come from tradition cultures, with strong patriarchal values.
Many a hilarious tale, of american women finding out that somethings just don’t fly when the romance is over and she finally meets the keeper of tradition and family propreity:
The Mother in Law – who’ll watch her with a suaronian eye for any undeserving behaviour for her ever-so dearly loved son.”
——
I’ve had personal experience with this, however only from South Asians (sorry Susan, its true!)
From Europeans and Africans (from Africa itself), I’ve not experienced that.
There’s many things about “traditional cultures” that I appreciate, and of course some things I don’t, just like with my own culture. We have to take the best of both I feel that people who are well-travelled, 3rd culture or “global citizens” so to speak, are able to do this.
About SATC, I thought the show was quite conventional in the way it portrayed 4 women desperate for male companionship. Samantha was the only one hell-bent on hook-ups and one-night-stands, the other 3 wanted long term relationships and talked about that ALL THE TIME. Even Samantha was a little too desperate for male attention in my opinion. I’d hardly label the show “feminist”.
@ Sox, “You should hear what Russian men say about American women.”
Since that was directed at me, Sox, I’ll let you know I don’t care what Russian men say about American women. Russian men are known for being lazy, uncouth alcoholics, that’s one reason why Russian women are so keen on getting out of their country and landing them a NON Russian husband.
I’ve seen Russian women all over South Asia trying to land Indian and Nepali men.
Like Russian women, I also prefer non-Russian men, and my aesthetic tastes lean more towards milk and dark chocolates.
So what Russian men or other men like them think about me or American women in general is irrelevent.
Plain Jane,
That may be, but the problem is that what Russian Men think about American Women is hardly unique, and Ms. Walsh has talked about this recently with Italian Men. Simply put, there is going to be a Russian Woman style exodus of American Women heading off to find their Prince Charming in a far off place, because those guys know the deal with American Women such as you. The stats speak for themselves.
O.
“About SATC, I thought the show was quite conventional in the way it portrayed 4 women desperate for male companionship.”
.
Conventional. Really? From who’s perspective? Remember they were already in their thirties and this is the count over about five years:
.
“Of the four women, public relations exec Samantha racked up the most sexual partners. She bedded 41 men and one woman, while Carrie hooked up with 18, Charlotte 18 and Miranda 17.” Add college and romps in their twenties and if that is the convention, well there is clear unashamed reasons to avoid a women who would think that.
.
if women who watched regularly consider that conventional, men please do not let any woman like that have your children, especially daughters. SATC is a great weed-out tool. Use it.
.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/2008/05/29/2008-05-29_in_sex_and_the_city_number_of_sex_partne-2.html
@DF
“Most of the Dashing romantic foreign male archetypes, that American women admire, happen to also come from tradition cultures, with strong patriarchal values.”
.
Good point. I never mentioned anything about foreign men being more romantic or more gentle than American men. I do not like stereotyping or using “reputations” to generalize about the men or women of a certain nation. Every culture has its positive and negative examples. Culture does play a role in the way men treat women, but certain male behaviors appear to be universal. Depending on the environment (society) some of these behaviors seem to be more pronounced or suppressed.
.
What has always struck me as very unique to American men is how committed they are to keeping the traditional “nuclear family model” as a vital institution in producing and maintaining a healthy society. However, in recent years they’ve gotten a reputation for being commitment-phobics. I am not an American, but I’ve lived in N.America since childhood and can safely say that I’ve been quite westernized. However, right now I am back in Europe for some years mainly for personal reasons of school/work/travel.
.
Regarding SATC – I hate that show. I’ve always found it boring and annoying and never really understood all the fuzz around it.
If American women knew the jokes told by foreign men in bars around the world they would be horrified.
American men tend to be seen as clownish soft husbands by foreign women, as contradistinguished to their more callous men.
btw Plain Jane, navigating culture is not something you neccessarily get to pick and choose like a hotel buffet.
Badger: Four kisses is the norm in Bordeaux. Three kisses in most of France and only two in Paris.
@Lavazza
3 kisses in Holland, and 2 in Italy.
“Don’t like to generalised”
True, but that was alwasy a given. Remember that many nations went to war over culture, so I wouldn’t be so dismissive. If you are in Europe then here is a test for you florence ask any european beside you if all eurpoeans think alike, behave and value the same things. They will laugh at the thought.
I disagree with this completely. Several people have mentioned Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, two women who are most definitely not welcome in the corps. The women who carry the flag are extremely judgmental about who is a “real” feminist. Just look at the recent uproar about Sarah Palin and other conservative women who claim to be feminist. In general, the feminist attitude toward interlopers is “It’s my way or the highway.”
Cosigning this. Outspoken feminists have an unwritten bible where only certain things are allowed and everything that deviates from it are considered the enemy or fake phony feminism. Do an exercise and go to the big ones Feministing or Jezebel and claim that you are a feminist pro-life or that you are a virgin feminist that wants to wait till marriage or that you are a feminist that plans to stay at home and raise 8 kids with your husband …and see how this is received and get back at us.
Screw and the City is watched internationally, unless you go to a country where people don’t have TVs. Not every woman who watches it is necessarily “brainwashed” by it.
I believe that for women now in college and 5 years on either side, SATC was the most damaging American cultural influence in a generation.
I have to agree with that Screw and the city sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills, the only time they showed something of genuine dangers was when Samantha was getting the AIDS test (because you know heartbreak, depression and disappointment are not important and not even register on women), also this women were rich, well dressed, partied up all night, and they never grew older, the fact that the last movie supposedly takes place 5 years after the last one with the actresses looking the same and being able to get men like they were 20 something is again part of the eternal teenagerdhood that makes women think they can decide to settle down whenever they please and men are just waiting in line for them to do so. I will say the closest to real women were Charlotte and Miranda. And I will say Samantha being desperate to hang into her aging body because all she had was sex, so once is over she got nothing else to love life was the only bit that was trying to be realistic and still in the end a magic cocktail of pills allows her to keep screwing like time doesn’t move…Yeah right. Total BS that women are eating up like chocolates. I will say Desperate Housewives also has this problem with the years passing the kids growing up and they keeping the actresses looking the same. Women get older people!
Much of white-collar feminism in this country appears to be summed up thusly: “don’t take any shit from men.” This, what FredOnEverything calls “the chip,” is now a part of social-education and self-esteem programming as early as middle school, so it’s no surprise men feel undervalued by women. European women (my experience has mostly been with grad students) are no shrinking violets, but they generally aren’t going to “step to you” until there’s a good reason to do so.
Ding Ding Ding we got a winner! Women from other cultures are no doormats, they just don’t spent every waking moment thinking that a man is just waiting for her to drop her guard to go and abuse them, thus if he didn’t took the trash out one day is not because he thinks he is better and he is making a political statement of superiority, he mostly just forgot. Mostly we pick our battles and try to get to know our men to know when we are going too far, because we know we are not perfect either so thinking that our way is the best way all the time its not part of our mentality.
Also, studies have shown that women are much more conservative after they have children, which conflicts with feminism’s desire to grow its membership.
I do wonder about that. How feminism recruits more women? Philosophies like religion spread through being born in it or being convinced to join. Feminists are not breeding more than conservative and other women, at least a third of them are forsaken motherhood and the ones that do become mother usually only have one or two kids. So obviously the route is propaganda. And given that they attack conservative women in a daily basis is not through them so it makes sense to convince them that they are having the time of their live by being sluts and not having kids or/and stable partners. I will think that is why they kick out everyone that is regretting their ways, they are not helping them to get more women convinced that the way of happiness is through penises and money and no one to spent it but yourself. The Kool Aid recipe most go unchanged for it to work.
1 2 3 4 »
{ 4 trackbacks }