The “Sex as Empowerment” Scam

January 28, 2011

“..From a purely entertainment point of view, to create a movie with a female lead that’s empowered with her own sexuality is a powerful thing.

And if we can give teenage people something to think about from a sex perspective, I would say it would be to open a conversation where women are empowered with their own sexual experiences from an educational level as well as an entertainment level.”

Ashton Kutcher, interview about No Strings Attached


Sleeping with someone just because you want to isn’t terribly empowering, and frankly it’s probably not very difficult, either.

Mark Regnerus, interview about Premarital Sex in America


So which is it? Is casual sex empowering? The definition of the word empower is “to enable or permit; to give more opportunity for independent action.” The Sexual Revolution empowered women to have no-strings sex with impunity. Hookup culture empowers women to engage in casual sex by providing a ready supply of males and few short-term consequences.

But how does casual sex empower women? What does it enable or permit them to do, other than have more sex?

1. Women often use this term to mean having power and control over a man. Rendering him putty in your hands, literally, means that for that moment, you have the upper hand.

“I felt so powerful when he begged me. He said I was the hottest.”

2. Eliciting feedback that you are good at sex makes you feel powerful compared with other women.

“Ha, he said his stupid girlfriend can’t even give good head. I have something that bitch doesn’t.”

3. Assuming a posture of “empowerment” masks your vulnerability. You are cool with keeping things casual. Until you’re not.

“Cool, dude, I’m not looking for anything serious either. And I don’t like to cuddle.”


I don’t think sex is a very good source of empowerment. We are empowered by doing a job well, having the love and loyalty of friends and family, becoming educated, preparing for the responsibility and rewards of adulthood. Looking at sex as a way to feel a sense of accomplishment seems terribly wrong, and sad.

Crystal Bui recently wrote an editorial on hookup culture for Tufts’ student newspaper.

“Some genuinely do enjoy hookup culture and feel empowered by dictating the terms of intimate encounters. But there are also disadvantages. Because a dating culture is nearly nonexistent on college campuses, some students (male and female) are pushed into this hookup culture and have found it to be dissatisfying and degrading. The feelings of empowerment that many participants of the hookup culture describe are frequently contentious, at best, and are often disputed by sociologists, psychologists and those who are spectators to this foreign culture.

While I do not completely agree or disagree with critics’ claims regarding the impacts of hookup culture, I do believe that there is one downplayed, but troubling, consequence: Perhaps we, as a generation, are failing to form functional and meaningful relations with others.”

Perhaps it is because hookups often lack conversation that many of us have become mute in our own interactions — even with basic friendships. We’ve forgotten how to talk to each other and how to share experiences with each other — heart− and gut−wrenching experiences, like the time your girlfriend cheated on you. Like when you used to cut yourself. Like the night your loved one died. Like the day your parents divorced. Like the time you felt alone.

Maybe hookup culture is our own way of grasping at the safest alternative. After all, if you don’t reveal yourself and if you act indifferent, then you’re invisible, infallible and incapable of getting hurt.”

Contrary to empowering women, hooking up is backing them into a corner, where they lose access to meaningful relationships, which are genuinely empowering.

I was thinking about the persistence of the “empowerment” meme, and how to tackle it, when I came across a recent post by Amelia McDonell-Parry, Editor-in-Chief of The Frisky. The Frisky is a site for women that covers celebrity gossip, fashion, sex and relationships. Ms. Parry shares a lot about her personal life on The Frisky, and a couple of years ago wrote how her fiance had dumped her out of the blue one day, taking up with someone new shortly thereafter. I don’t know if there was a correlation, but suddenly there was a plethora of risque articles there promoting non-monogamy in every conceivable form:

Ms. Parry, now 31, has been dating, drinking and having sex  for the past couple of years, but recently, she swore off sex for six months. After all of that experimentation, how does she feel?

“I need to feel confident completely in who I am without a drink in my hand or a man in my bed. I need to really see and believe, 24/7, that I am a whole person who is lacking nothing, rather than depending on a man or a buzz to give me that validation. So. I’m taking a break from drinking. And from dating. And from sex, even with people I don’t care about.

In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.

Then the sun comes up…rolling over, I look at the person I slept with and I wonder if they felt as awesome as I did the night before. As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them, or I do and they want something very different than what I want. They don’t want to get to know me better. They already know enough to determine they’re not interested in something more. And suddenly I don’t feel so whole again. It’s not that I regret my decisions. I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”

That is one of the most painful things I’ve read, and I share it here not to benefit from someone else’s hurt, or to say “I told you so,” but because this woman has worked hard to communicate to thousands of female readers that casual sex is empowering. I applaud her honesty about what a false promise that is. Embracing sex as empowerment is really about the desire for control, in the belief that gaining control will make you whole, lacking nothing that a man wants. Ms. Parry gives us a rare peek into the mind and soul of a regretful sex-positive feminist. She was just a woman who grasped for male validation and found it lasted only as long as the moon hung in the night sky.

It’s powerful and honest testimony from a woman who walked the walk.

4 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Hi Ms Walsh,
    Whew!-Your ears must be burning off at this point. I say that because I’ve been talking about you all day over at Very Smart Brothas (and could actually use a hand if you’re so inclined LOL):

    http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/just-in-case-you-were-wondering-its-true/

    Just look for the flashing red lights – that’d be me, LOL

    I posted up today’s post by you over there as an example of the excellent work you’ve been doing…

    O.

  • Mellow JD

    I think it’s only empowering for men. The bigger the supply of available women, the less pressure men have to put up with shortcomings of any particular female. In other words, why try hard with this one when the next one is just around the corner?
    God bless sex-pos feminism! Best thing that happened to men since sliced bread :))

  • Mike C

    In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.
    Then the sun comes up…rolling over, I look at the person I slept with and I wonder if they felt as awesome as I did the night before. As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them, or I do and they want something very different than what I want. They don’t want to get to know me better. They already know enough to determine they’re not interested in something more. And suddenly I don’t feel so whole again. It’s not that I regret my decisions. I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”

    And that is exactly what a true player plays to

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Obs

    Haha, thanks so much for the shameless plugging of HUS! I see you are in your element over there, Obs. Once again, you’re channeling the Cheshire Cat. Glad my post fit in nicely with the topic. I would love it if some of those folks came by here. That looks like a good and well populated blog!

  • Florence

    “Cool, dude, I’m not looking for anything serious either. And I don’t like to cuddle.”
    …..
    – I think that part of the empowerment issue is that women want to believe that they have full control over their emotions and can self-discipline themselves to not get attached to the guy they are sleeping with. They want to believe they can “have sex like a man”, as someone on this forum had previously mentioned. Certainly there are women who can do so. My promiscuous friend was at one time actually “dating” someone for a few months, who was a single dad with one child and she never got attached. She wore him off sex and money, then realized he wasn’t a good match because of his kid, which she thought at the beginning wouldn’t be a problem. She tried to dump him, while he kept crying and begging. She hated the fact that he cried constantly. I suppose she was “the man” in the relationship. Sometimes I ENVY her for being able to control her emotions so well. However, she is not the majority of women.

  • terre

    I’d say that if the man never made any kind of formal commitment, she got played. Like I said about the Salon post, it’s almost impressive the extent to which a woman can bounce back from being used and put a spin on it that’d make Bush Sr. blush. If you know how to read between the lines, though, it’s quite trivial to do.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Hi Ms. Walsh,
    You’re most welcome! My pleasure as you have really done your homework, there’s simply no denying that, and that’s what I wanted to convey to the VSB crowd. And, as you can plainly see, there are quite a few Sistas who’ve drank the “sex pos” Koolaide, too. But not to worry – the O-Man is on the scene to sort it all out. :)

    O.

  • filrabat

    The only thing powerful about the above is the power of our DNA,  brain architecture, and neurochemical coctails that make us nature’s tool!  That’s what’s appropriate for chimpanzees and less intelligent life forms – not for creatures as cognitively complex, conscious, and articulate as human beings.   Sure, we’re animals too, but we also transcend animals too!  In fact, its our very ability to transcend ordinary animals that allowed us to be the current Alpha species of the planet!  If we keep up like this? Well, I’m sure we’ll make great pets for any extraterrestrial species that happens to come across our sun’s third rockball.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat

      The only thing powerful about the above is the power of our DNA, brain architecture, and neurochemical coctails that make us nature’s tool! That’s what’s appropriate for chimpanzees and less intelligent life forms – not for creatures as cognitively complex, conscious, and articulate as human beings.

      It is precisely this point of biology where feminists go off the rails. Because they deny sex differences, or even the role of hormones in arousal and attachment, they are left with a blank canvas on which to project. The only way they learn is by getting burned. It took Ms. Parry two years to figure that out, and she was 29 when she began.

  • DF

    Well, well, well
    Women were sold a fuastian pack in feminsim, they get power in exchange for full human love that, transcends money, beauty, age. A love wanting of them, only and completely as individuals. A love that; loves her for her faults not her strengths.
     
    Now! The Devil wants his due!
     
     

  • DF

    As addition to my previous comment.
    This womens small anicdote, provides us with a pictuer of horror. A portrait equivalent to Dorian Gray. Or should I say Doris Gray ;D. While she enjoys the life of sexual adventure, her soul slowly wastes away. There will be nobody to look after as she ages into oblivion, her bitterness will consume her. For she sold her most valuable possession for the cheap to many men of darkness.
    Is there but one good man for her now? What has she to offer now?

  • Bob

    Have to wonder what amount of this “high” they’re getting is really a feeling of empowerment, and what percentage is just a false positive from gina tingles.

    A few years back, I did date a girl for a few months who had done the carousel.  She described it (against my express wishes) with almost these exact words.  “I felt like a f**king goddess,” for instance, is exactly what she said.  Shortly before meeting me, some drama happened (too long to fit here), and she decided she wanted to be a long-term relationship girl from then on.

    I was (mostly) past my young and foolish stage at that point, and had recently been introduced to Game, so I treated her exactly like I imagined all the previous douchebags in her life had treated her.  Besides the predictable, positive effects on her attitude toward me, she expressed a belief that I made her feel more sure of herself, more real, and more appreciated than she had ever felt before.  Of course, I later found out (should have guessed) that she had said the same thing to previous boyfriends, all of whom had cheated on her (one of whom claimed she cheated on him, though she denied it; we broke up before I decided who to believe).

    Looking back, in light of knowledge like that expressed in this article, I have to wonder how much she was mixing up the tingly feeling with feelings of empowerment.  In the interest of science, I almost wish I could go back and act like a starstruck beta to see if she’d feel more empowered or less.

    On a related note, after that experience, I am never dating a girl with such a high number again.  Too much drama, and the sex was moderately above average at best.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bob

      Looking back, in light of knowledge like that expressed in this article, I have to wonder how much she was mixing up the tingly feeling with feelings of empowerment.

      I hadn’t thought of this – interesting point. Perhaps women feel empowered only by men who have power over them. It’s the conquest of snagging a night with a dominant male that produces the tingles and empowerment, which go hand in hand. It’s hard to imagine a promiscuous woman “feeling like a fucking goddess” with a nice brainy guy with limited sexual history. It’s got to be about validation from a dominant male.

  • Athlone McGinnis

    Casual sex(or at least the ability to deliver it) can give women power over some men. They just won’t be the men women really want.
    Maybe around 80% of guys(read: the majority of beta males) will be drawn to you if you are hot and you show the potential to offer quick sex. If you’re that girl, you’ll be able to string a lot of these guys along and get them to do a lot of things for you because of their level of outcome dependence. They really, REALLY want sex(they don’t get a whole lot of it), so your teasing has a greater affect on them. When you see that affect in person, it might feel empowering for a while because it appears that you actually have some serious control over them.
    I know girls like this at my school-they are masters at manipulating the desperation and supplication of most guys. All they do is dress to impress and on any given weekend, they can attract massive amounts of attention. They’ll have the entire frat basement wrapped around their finger and all eyes will be on them because they LOOK like they’d be sexy freaks who’d offer quick sex(these guys aren’t advanced enough to realize that these girls would never actually bang them). Were these girls to actually offer the sex, I’m certain they’d have that guy on lockdown for quite some time because he’ll be desperate enough to want more.
    Many of these guys are outcome dependent enough that she will be able to continue to wield this influence over one dude even after having many hookups with him over an extended period of time. The catch: her attraction for this guy won’t remain particularly strong the longer she wields this power over him. Women aren’t attracted to men they can consistently string along. Consistent “empowerment” over a guy breeds eventual disinterest.
    The problem is that the guys who these women really want(roughly the top 20-25% of the male populace, alpha males and a few higher betas) are less outcome dependent. Because they could care less about casual sex with you in particular, they’re actually less susceptible to your expressions of blatant sexuality. They might play into it for a while to a limited extent but they’ll only do so to get laid quickly. When they do get laid or realize that you’re just teasing them, they leave quickly. She won’t be able to string them along or toy with them very much, and they won’t feed her desire for validation and attention as readily as others. In this reality, the girl whose main asset is her willingness to offer quick sex(or at least appear to) has no power over these men, even though these are the men she really wants to have power over. Sex is not a big deal to these dudes, so the women chasing them do not empower themselves by offering it. To these guys, they’re just another girl. Their mentality is embodied in this quote from Drake:
    “She sent me a text but I didn’t even read it
    ’cause Pussy’s only pussy and I’ll get it when I need it.”
    Another catch: When you’re in an environment with a gender ratio skewed to favor men(like on most college campuses where women vastly outnumber men), the abundance mentality created is going to create even more guys with lower levels of outcome dependence than normal. This is because they have options when it comes to sex and can likely access it more easily. As we know, when one can regularly achieve the outcome with less difficulty, one becomes less dependent on it. This means that in such environments women who offer casual sex are even less empowered than normal because the number of guys they can wield influence over is smaller and the number of guys who could care less(the desirable ones) is much higher.
    In other words, casual sex can be “empowering” but not often in the way the women promoting it would like it to be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Athlone
      Another brilliant report from the trenches.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    “human love that, transcends money, beauty, age”
    Precisely. Love is more powerful than sex.
     
    But love also can cause a lot of pain.  A lot of people want to avoid pain, so they try hard to avoid love and any emotional entanglements in the process.  It’s understandable, but it’s also foolish.

  • Geoff

    And this article sums up the choices before ALL women:
    a)  have as much sex as you want, wear a t-shirt that says “I’m empowered” and retire from the league at age 30, or
    b)  wait til you’re married to have sex and watch how many guys are willing to trust you with their wealth and future income.
    .
    You ladies get to make this call.  Not us guys.

  • Plain Jane

    b)  wait til you’re married to have sex and watch how many guys are willing to trust you with their wealth and future income.
    .
    You ladies get to make this call.  Not us guys.
    ——————————————-

    I don’t think many guys are willing to trust women with their wealth and future income anymore, even if she is a “virgin”.

    I think sex can be empowering if you were conditioned your entire life to think of it as something dirty.  That is if you come from a repressed culture or a repressive and controlling religious cult.  To break free of that mentality can be liberating and empowering in general. 
    Another way sex can be empowering is if you didn’t recieve sexual attention from others your entire life and then at some point in your life you start to.

  • Plain Jane

    And this article sums up the choices before ALL women:
    a)  have as much sex as you want, wear a t-shirt that says “I’m empowered” and retire from the league at age 30, or
    b)  wait til you’re married to have sex and watch how many guys are willing to trust you with their wealth and future income.
    .
    You ladies get to make this call.  Not us guys.
    —————————————————————

    Sorry to break it to you but in today’s world most people have relationship sex with those persons they have coupled with until eventually they get married to one of them.  Whenever someone tries to present you with only 1 of 2 choices, know that you always have more.
    And more about that sharing of wealth………… I dated a guy who kept bringing up “pre-nup” with me.  No idea why.  I had zero intention of marrying him.  One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?”
    This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
    He worked a low paying job and eventually had to move back in with parents because he could not make rent!
    And he wants to talk “pre-nup”???????????

    LOL.  Some people just have no clue who they are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?”
      This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!

      That’s pretty funny.

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane: “I don’t think many guys are willing to trust women with their wealth and future income anymore, even if she is a “virgin”.”
     
    Any guy who gets married 2.0 are doing just that, so you do not have guess how many men are doing that, just check the marriage statistics.

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane: Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry, so it seems you are going for option a).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry

      Hear, hear! Stay on the market rather than date someone just to kill time.

  • Janine

    Lets be honest here….when a woman gets with a guy that can really “PLEASE”, she wants HIM! The issue comes into place when you come down from fantasy land and realize that you are simply a casual hook-up and that takes the power, control and confidence right out of you. I’ve been in a situation with a guy who after feelings were revealed, in order to distance himself and detach from me told me and I quote ” Dude. We f**cked. That’s it. Get real with life. ”
    What I learned from that experience is it had nothing to do about empowerment. I believe people who enter into casual sex arrangements/friends with benefits arrangements do so because they have a fear of intimacy issues or themselves are emotionally unavailable. Nothing good can come from two people who have insecurity issues going on and one wants to take things to another level from hook-up to committed relationship. So the real question is does empowerment in fact come from making someone wait longer before you engage in having sex?

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane: And letting the man know that you have dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to make him want to marry you, especially if you have been doing this often or recently.
     
    But hey, that’s what lying is for.

  • Brendan

    A lot of people want to avoid pain, so they try hard to avoid love and any emotional entanglements in the process.  It’s understandable, but it’s also foolish.
    .
    It’s also, I think, that love requires time and effort.  It takes much more time, attention, and effort to cultivate and express love than it does to have sex … even sex of the more involved, intense, drawn-out variety (which is generally not alcohol-fueled hookup sex anyway).  Folks are in college or in the immediate years after and are scared/reluctant to “invest” themselves in a relationship that could be a “distraction” from their other goals (ranging from advancing career to having fun until they reach age X), so they more or less deliberately avoid love, due to the time and effort it takes.  This is also understandable, but also often foolish, because it places arbitrary limits on the people you are meeting during that time, and who may actually be better mates for you than the ones you meet once you feel “ready”, having reached age X.

    That’s also related, I think, to this:

    So the real question is does empowerment in fact come from making someone wait longer before you engage in having sex?

    Of course it does, but that depends on the circumstance and the market you are in.  In the pre-current market, this was the traditional way for women to exercise their sexual power (attractional power, if you will):  making men wait.  It was pretty effective when it was socially enforced broadly outside of limited urban libertine circles.  When the culture totally shifted in its attitudes towards casual sex, however, this strategy became much harder for women to deploy because it really only works if the other women in your submarket are also deploying the same strategy.  If they are not, and are offering casual sex to men and not making them wait, many men in that market will simply pass over the women who are trying to exercise power by withholding sex and go for the girls who are offering up casual sex more easily.    This is exactly what Mark Regnerus was remarking in one of the previous posts by Susan here.

    There still exist certain submarkets where waiting to have sex is not just common but often preferred, but these are mostly conservative religious submarkets.  These submarkets have their own issues, but the strategy of not deploying casual sex is more applicable in these submarkets than in the “General” pond.  In the “General” pond today, if casual sex is not on offer, you’re likely to get passed over by the men you find attractive, because they’ll just have sex with another girl.

    None of this is empowering to women, of course.  The current SMP is designed around the interests of the attractive men — the “men with options” to whom women will gladly give up casual sex in an effort to woo.  It’s also favorable to women who are “true sluts” — that is, women who enjoy sleeping around very much like many men do (or would, if they could).  These women are not, however, close to the majority of women, as Florence notes above (and also in my own experience, I’ve noted that this is the case).  So if you’re not one of the “men with options” or one of the “true sluts”, the current marketplace … kind of sucks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The current SMP is designed around the interests of the attractive men — the “men with options” to whom women will gladly give up casual sex in an effort to woo. It’s also favorable to women who are “true sluts” — that is, women who enjoy sleeping around very much like many men do (or would, if they could). These women are not, however, close to the majority of women, as Florence notes above (and also in my own experience, I’ve noted that this is the case). So if you’re not one of the “men with options” or one of the “true sluts”, the current marketplace … kind of sucks.

      Yes, yes, yes! This is truly the era of the promiscuous – Alphas and Sluts. But chaos always breeds opportunity, and this is where the opportunity lies – in the potential matching of current “have nots.” That means women and men with future time-orientation, low impulsivity and more traditional values. That’s roughly 80% of the population! “The world must be peopled!” Bridging the chasm between these two groups, who largely fly under the radar in our culture, is the challenge.
      .
      What is a waste of time for all the “have nots” is for the men to pursue the hot sluts, and for the women to pursue alpha dogs. That way lies misery.

  • Florence

    In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.
    Then the sun comes up… As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them […] I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”
    …..

    Yup, that probably summarizes the thinking of women who engage in one night stands.
    Sex is not a tool, to be used for control. I have said this before. Using sex to manipulate a man in order to get whatever you are looking for – “feeling like a goddess”, money, “commitment” or anything else is simply manipulative, immoral, and completely INEFFICIENT.If you yourself don’t feel like a “goddess”, another person cannot make you feel like a “goddess”.
    In addition, if a woman is looking for “mind-blowing” sex, she will not find it through ONSs. Sex for a woman is WAYY better with a boyfriend. When I hear a woman saying that she had a mind-blowing ONS with some good looking lifeguard, TBH, I don’t believe it. It’s BS. It actually gets better on the 5th or 6th time as the guy learns what the woman in question likes. Even after months of build-up, the first time is always “okay”, but very rarely “mind-blowing”.  Even the most “experienced” guy won’t give you mind-blowing sex if he doesn’t know what you like.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you yourself don’t feel like a “goddess”, another person cannot make you feel like a “goddess”.

      That’s the truth.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    There is something odd about the term “empowerment”…it is rarely if ever used in connection with real, serious power. I doubt if anyone ever said, “I feel really empowered now that I’m CEO of this F500 company,” or “I feel really empowered now that I’m commanding this carrier task group.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I doubt if anyone ever said, “I feel really empowered now that I’m CEO of this F500 company,” or “I feel really empowered now that I’m commanding this carrier task group.”

      Haha, true! Come to think of it, it’s almost entirely used when talking about women. It may have come out of the last generation’s self-esteem movement, especially all the literature about empowering adolescent girls. Perhaps as they matured sexually, it got carried over to also be about sex. I did a bit of research on the term for this article, and many of the hits discussed the importance of the concept in sex ed. So that’s probably what happened. Ridiculous.

  • Florence

    @ Mellow JD
    I am a sex-pos feminist. I think that the current situation is not the result of what feminists are fighting for at the core. The current situation is the result of poorly understood or misinterpreted objectives of the feminist movement. At its core values, feminism is about social equality of men and women in daily life. Feminists support closing the gender gap, not widening it – thus clearing the road for a free, individualist and diverse future. The idea of women “exploring their sexualities” is about liberating women to enjoy sex, just like any other pleasure giving activity without being shamed. Back in the day, women were so ashamed of enjoying sex to the point where they’d hide their faces if they enjoyed an orgasm or would insist the lights to be off. They’d be ashamed to walk into a sex store, to own a sex toy, to masturbate, or to see a sexually explicit movie. Today, women walk freely with their boyfriends into sex stores and engage in fantasies they used to suppress in the past.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence

      I am a sex-pos feminist. I think that the current situation is not the result of what feminists are fighting for at the core. The current situation is the result of poorly understood or misinterpreted objectives of the feminist movement.

      Wait, what? I hadn’t understood that at all! OK, I have a question for you. Since the current situation is ardently defended by women such as Jessica Valenti and her minions, Amanda Marcotte, Jaclyn Friedman, Rachel Kramer Bussell and other sex-pos types, are they the ones misunderstanding or misinterpreting the objectives of the feminist movement? Because they are the feminist movement today.

  • Brendan

    Bridging the chasm between these two groups, who largely fly under the radar in our culture, is the challenge..What is a waste of time for all the “have nots” is for the men to pursue the hot sluts, and for the women to pursue alpha dogs. That way lies misery.
    .

    Very true.  The solutions have to be kind of “off-market”, I think, though.  Alternative ways of meeting people outside what we call the “SMP”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The solutions have to be kind of “off-market”, I think, though. Alternative ways of meeting people outside what we call the “SMP”.

      I agree. This can’t happen at meat markets, bars, etc. to any great degree. That’s why I encourage people to earnestly pursue interests – it could easily happen in a running group, for example, or any intellectual pursuit.

  • Abbot

    “I am a sex-pos feminist. I think that the current situation is not the result of what feminists are fighting for at the core. The current situation is the result of poorly understood or misinterpreted objectives of the feminist movement.”
    .
    Well, too bad Florence. Men have their “fun with feminists” and if those men choose to, they can go marry a non-feminist. Its the old two list approach – those who you fool around with and those whom you marry. It has never been easier for men who poorly understand and misinterpret the so-called feminist movement. Maybe Parry, Valenti, Friedman and Marcotte can save it by getting men to come around to their way of thinking.

  • Abbot

    “Bridging the chasm between these two groups, who largely fly under the radar in our culture, is the challenge.”
    .
    Many men have responded by going outside the culture. That is well documented. Have women? There does not seem to be much evidence of that. Do men truly have more options then?

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com/ Joe

    SW: “Since the current situation is ardently defended by women such as Jessica Valenti and her minions, Amanda Marcotte, Jaclyn Friedman, Rachel Kramer Bussell and other sex-pos types, are they the ones misunderstanding or misinterpreting the objectives of the feminist movement? Because they are the feminist movement today.”
     
    I’m not familiar with some of those names (yes, I’ve heard of Jessica Valenti, but not read her, and I’ve read a little of Amanda Marcotte, but only enough to be disinterested in reading much more), and I’m pretty sure there are nuances to both sex-pos feminists and today’s feminist movement to which I’m totally ignorant. I’d love to have you expand on this, Susan.
     
    Do they really go around saying that the hook-up culture is all that? Thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe
      To be honest, I can’t quite get a handle on what the feminist movement today is, and I don’t think feminists can either. For starters there is quite a bit of infighting among the various “waves” or generations. The crisis in feminism around porn (pro-porn won) led to the sex-positive movement we see today. On most feminist websites, which is where I get my information, there’s a lot of promotion of NSA sex, and much criticism of “fuddy duddies” like myself who engage in “hand wringing” about “what the younguns are up to.” You get the idea. Those sites also tend to be interested in lobbying for sex workers, against female genital mutilation and some other issues. In fact, the organization that aims to protect sex workers in Thailand is called EMPOWER. There’s a whole other group though – our age – that’s still primarily driven by keeping Roe v. Wade in place. They are strictly “choice” feminists. And then there’s a renegade group of women – Naomi Wolf to some degree, and Camille Paglia who bring refreshing honesty and objective, logical reasoning to their arguments, even if I don’t agree with them all the time (I do mostly agree with CP). That’s my understanding of it – I tend to draw fire from the sex-pos types, for obvious reasons.

  • Abbot

    Is “empowerment” another euphemism to make women feel better or justify their behavior or to get men to understand that it was necessary as part of “making her the person she is today” nonsense? Does achieving empowerment require that men be somehow part of the scene, at least as props? What if men just pay lip service to it as a means to getting laid? Yep, men are just snickering the word empowerment as they walk home in the morning after a night of pounding in some good empowerment…

  • Geoff

    “One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?”  This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
    .
    That appears funny at the “ha-ha” level because a prenup for a guy with only $1,000 seems silly.
    .
    It would of course be “HAHAHAHAHAHA” funny if the guy’s family was wealthy but you didn’t know about it, he was dating you because he cared about you and was considering you for marriage–but you blew him off and made it obvious you were just dating him to kill time.

  • filrabat

    “Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry”.
    It’s also inefficient – a waste of time, emotions, effort, and even money spent for things to make you look sexy to men who have no intention to marry you…plus (for those inclined to split the tab) meals.   That people would waste so much time doing that is a testament to how lax our culture has become about self-discipline in romantic matters — with the present results you see.  Me? I chalk it up to the broader trend of “if it feels good, do it” (i.e., not just in sexual or romantic matters).  Sounds more like addiction to excitement and pleasure than anything else.

  • Lavazza

    Florence: There is a “sex hierarchy” and most people will shame people participating in the boxes they do not participate in themselves. I have yet to meet somebody who does not.
     
    If someone can can post this picture, I would much appreciate it.
     
    http://www.interalia.org.pl/pl/artykuly/2006_1/05_whos_renting_these_boys.htm
     

  • Purple Tortoise

    The “empowerment” of a young woman’s sex appeal is akin to the “empowerment” of winning the lottery.  Both will enable you to have some fun experiences and gain you many short-term friends, but if you fritter away your wealth rather than invest it for the future, you’ll end up sad and alone.

  • Lavazza

    filrabit: Yeah, I find Plain Jane admitting that she dates guys she has no intention of marrying is worth more laughter than a guy wanting a prenup, without having apparent reasons to need it. That is if Plain Jane wants to marry at some point of time.

  • Florence

    The above post was mine.
    “Since the current situation is ardently defended by women such as Jessica Valenti and her minions, Amanda Marcotte, Jaclyn Friedman, Rachel Kramer Bussell and other sex-pos types, are they the ones misunderstanding or misinterpreting the objectives of the feminist movement? Because they are the feminist movement today.”
    – TBH, I’ve rarely even heard these names and I don’t even know why you think those women “define” the feminist movement. True sex-positive feminists are Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan and Dorchen Leidholdt. These women focus on issues such as: (1) sexual harassment, (2) pornography, and (3) violence against women and (4) fun-feminism. They have won awards for their work. Andrea Dworkin was former prostitute at the Red Light District in Amsterdam because at the time she found herself with no money, no support and was abused. She describes her experiences, while fighting for respect of sex workers.
    .
    There is a great article in Wikipedia on sex-positive feminism, and it no where mentions the names of the women you use as an example. Thus, they DO NOT define what sex-positive feminism is. These women may use feminism to justify their actions, because under feminism, sexual freedom is an essential component of women’s freedom, however they DO NOT define the core values of feminism.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thus, they DO NOT define what sex-positive feminism is.

      The women I mentioned are the young faces of feminism on the American scene today. They lecture at colleges, sit on panels, and write books. Lena Chen and Shelby Knox are two more that have made a name for themselves. MacKinnon and Dworkin were actually opponents to spf, and in general were pretty much anti-sex.
      I didn’t know Andrea Dworkin was a prostitute. *Shudder* I can’t imagine she paid the bills with that gig – she’s the ugliest woman I have ever laid eyes on.

  • Lavazza

    Florence: My guess is that sex positive feminism is only positive to some sex and is negative to some sex, but goes around the problem by defining the sex they do not like as “not sex”. I can’t see how sex positive feminists can be positive about a woman wanting to be dominated by a man (or ending up that way) or a man wanting to dominate a woman (or ending up that way).

  • Florence

    @ Lavazza
    Sex-positive feminism is about protecting women and their decisions when it comes to sexuality. Thus, the women Susan uses as an example, would be protected by feminism for their actions to not be judged or shamed. In addition, “sex-positive feminism” is a fairly new movement. It has not yet been completely and entirely defined. It hasn’t defined which types of sex would be positive and which types of sex would be negative and it probably never will. It is about having the liberty to make your own choice. There are different types of feminists and they often have opposing views. Sex-radical feminists for example, fight for the ability to secure women’s best interest in sexually limiting laws because they distrust the patriarchal organization of our society. They believe that the government blatantly discriminates against women in the area of sexuality. Other feminists identify women’s sexual liberation as the real motive behind the women’s movement (ex: viewing orgasm as a positive thing).

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?”This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!

    That’s pretty funny.”
    .
    Instead of responding with “silly boy, you’re not hot stuff like you think you are,” I think you should both try another way of looking at it. Tom Leykis explained it thusly: “if you don’t have anything, and think you don’t need a prenup, aren’t you saying you don’t think you will amount to anything?”
    .
    As I’ve said before, I can take prenups or I can leave them (they’re only tools and not very effective). But it’s funny to watch women shriek and project whenever the topic of them limiting their divorce power in any kind of marginal way comes up. It’s clear women like to go into marriage with the subtextual idea they can “clean him out” if it goes bad, and then cover up the self-interest by claiming it’s “unromantic” to talk about it (which sounds like hamsterism).
    .
    If you don’t plan on divorcing, why not sign it, put your man’s mind at ease and go on with your happy marriage? I think Susan is dissembling when she argues “women don’t really know or understand the system so they are shocked by talk about prenups.” People like Florence make it clear that  women DO understand it and LIKE it that way. As to whether they know it or not, divorce is part of the modern experience – I don’t know a single young person who doesn’t know multiple people whose parents divorced.
     

  • Abbot

    It seems impossible for the hetero sex positive cult to succeed if men take what they can get from it but do not fully embrace its core meaning [assuming there is one]. That is, if men don’t play along the whole thing is DOA. So are these “scholars” mentioned above out there asking men nicely for some cooperation? 

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Sex-positive feminism is about protecting women and their decisions when it comes to sexuality.”

    .
    Nice try. Sex-pos is really about women “having their fun” without feeling any consequences. It crucially requires the criminalization of male sexuality, and the criminalization of sex judgment (hence their fatwa against slut shaming).

  • Lavazza

    Florence:
     
    “At its core values, feminism is about social equality of men and women in daily life.”
     
    “Sex-positive feminism is about protecting women and their decisions when it comes to sexuality”
     
    Where is the equality in only protecting one sex?

  • Brendan

    Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon were sex positive?  Nonsense.  They were the ones trying to pass anti-porn laws.  The sex positive feminists were/are the ones defending sex work, pornography and so on.  Totally at odds with MacKinnon and Dworkin.

    You’ve said you reviewed the Wikipedia entry.  Seems like you have difficulties with reading comprehension, because at the very outset it says this:
    .
    Some became involved in the sex-positive feminist movement in response to efforts by anti-pornography feminists, such as Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan and Dorchen Leidholdt, to put pornography at the center of a feminist explanation of women’s oppression (McElroy, 1995). This period of intense debate and acrimony between sex-positive and anti-pornography feminists during the early 1980s is often referred to as the “Feminist Sex Wars“.”
    .
    That is, MacKinnon and Dworkin were who the sex-pos were reacting *against*.
    .
    Reading on, we read this:
    .

    “MacKinnon and Dworkin took the tactic of framing pornography as a civil rights issue, arguing that showing pornography constituted sex discrimination against women. The sex-positive movement response to this argument was that legislation against pornography violates women’s right to free speech. Soon after, a coalition of anti-porn feminists and right-wing groups succeeded in passing a similar ordinance in Indianapolis. This ordinance was later declared unconstitutional by a Federal court.
    Rubin writes that anti-pornography feminists exaggerate the dangers of pornography by showing the most shocking pornographic images (such as those associated with sadomasochism) out of context, in a way that implies that the women depicted are actually being raped, rather than emphasizing that these scenes depict fantasies and use actors who have consented to being shown in such a way (Rubin, 1984). Sex-positive feminists argue that access to pornography is as important to women as to men, and that there is nothing inherently degrading to women about pornography (McElroy, 1996; Strossen, 2000). Anti-pornography feminists however disagree, often arguing that the very depiction of such acts leads to the actual acts being encouraged and committed.[6]
    .
    MacKinnon and Dworkin were *not* “sex-pos feminists”.  They were what the sex-pos feminists were reacting against.
    .
    So which are you?

  • Abbot

    “Nice try. Sex-pos is really about women “having their fun” without feeling any consequences. It crucially requires the criminalization of male sexuality, and the criminalization of sex judgment (hence their fatwa against slut shaming).”
    .
    Thus the euphemisms – empowerment, express their sexuality, learn boundaries – all designed to get men too be sympathetic and not reject them for their easy indulgence when its time for a life partner. But rather than be honest about it, they feel better stating that if sexual past is used as a selection criteria its akin to slut-shaming and this shaming is somehow born from male insecurity and immaturity. In other words, they are whining and pointing fingers and that’s an old female familiar tune.

  • Octavia

    Florence: You’re raising some interesting points but some aren’t ready to consider them.  I think there’s an incredible amount of information about feminism out there, including opposing viewpoints.  It’s just that some people have a serious blindspot about their bias against feminism.  They absolutely refuse to believe that, like most movements, it has many aspects to it.
    Lavazza: Obtaining equality sometimes means first addressing the most drastic cases of mistreatment.  Also, there are different types of feminism.  Therefore, feminism at its core can still be about equality for men and women while a subsector of feminism is centered on women’s sexual choices.
    Equality isn’t merely defined as everyone getting the same thing at the same time because not everyone has the same needs at the same time.  Within the feminist movement, there are issues of race, sexuality, socio-economic status, etc.  Are there some extremists in the movement? Yes. Does that negate the movement? No. Understanding that is like grasping the concept that the men’s right movement, at its core, isn’t about negating women’s rights.
     
     
     

  • Lavazza

    Octavia: “Obtaining equality sometimes means first addressing the most drastic cases of mistreatment.  Also, there are different types of feminism.  Therefore, feminism at its core can still be about equality for men and women while a subsector of feminism is centered on women’s sexual choices.”
     
    Feminism at is core is about women’s rights and men’s obligations. As soon as somebody advocates men’s rights or women’s obligations feminists lose interest or start opposing.
     
    There is no case where men are deemed to be in such drastic mistreatment that feminists will give the question more than lip service. This since the solution will involve giving men rights and women obligations.

  • Mike C

    Regarding what Athlone said…
     
    Just wanted to highlight/note that it supports what I was saying in another thread.  Forget the whole alpha/beta thing because people love to then dissect what exactly is an alpha…
     
    There are guys with options and guys without options….THEY LIVE IN 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLDS, and have 2 completely different mentalities when it comes to women and pussy.  Guys without options stay with “mean bitches”.  Guys with options dump them to the curb.
     
    Their mentality is embodied in this quote from Drake:“She sent me a text but I didn’t even read it*******’cause Pussy’s only pussy and I’ll get it when I need it.”*******


    Only a very small minority of guys have the luxury of that mentality.  For 80% of guys, pussy is a rare and very valuable thing (as the funny cartoon up top shows) that they will not give up even if the person it is attached to is pretty crappy in other ways.

  • Mike C

    It’s got to be about validation from a dominant male.


    I think that is exactly the dynamic at work.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com/ Joe

    Susan, thank you. Camille Paglia is an interesting case. She’s written enough that I know I’m not completely up on her thoughts, but from what I have read she’s been an astute observer and does indeed treat the topics she approaches with candor and a large degree of objectivity.  Can’t ask for much more than that.
     
    Being from that infamous “Vietnam Era” it’s more difficult for me to separate the political from the personal when talking about female empowerment. It seems like establishment feminism died when Bill Clinton dithered on the definition of the word “is”, but it hardly changed things for women in general, did it?
     
    All that doesn’t seem to have much to do with personal empowerment. I mean, when it comes down to it over the years I’ve had very nearly as many females signing my timecard at work as males. I laughed at the picture up top and its caption with a wry sense of knowing humor. Been there, done that. Personal empowerment was just never a question, I thought, except in that we all feel impotent at times, especially when we’re young.

  • Plain Jane

    @Lavazza, “Plain Jane: Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry, so it seems you are going for option a).”

    So YOU want to marry people before you get to know them?

  • Plain Jane

    @ Mike C, “Their mentality is embodied in this quote from Drake:“She sent me a text but I didn’t even read it*******’cause Pussy’s only pussy and I’ll get it when I need it.”*******
    ….

    “Only a very small minority of guys have the luxury of that mentality.  For 80% of guys, pussy is a rare and very valuable thing (as the funny cartoon up top shows) that they will not give up even if the person it is attached to is pretty crappy in other ways.”

    ————————–

    Interesting that you refer to that disgusting attitude as a “luxury”.
    So whoever coined the phrase “all men are pigs” was right, I guess.  Even the faux “nice guys”.
    With “friends” like that – who needs enemies?

  • Plain Jane

    Camille Paglia fans, keep in mind that she’s a lesbian. 

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Camille Paglia fans, keep in mind that she’s a lesbian.

      So? Does that make her a less brilliant thinker and writer?

  • Mike C

    Interesting that you refer to that disgusting attitude as a “luxury”.


    Probably not the best choice of word on my part.  That said, by zeroing in on just that part, you BOTH misinterpret my intent and MISS THE LARGER POINT.  Again, MOST WOMEN are COMPLETELY OBLIVOUS to the fact that in the current SMP, in terms of sexual activity it is a land of tremendous haves and HAVE NOTs so I generally try to emphasize and reiterate that point at every opportunity. Women really need to get this concept into their heads in order to understand why many men feel the way they do.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com/ Joe

    @Plain Jane Yes, it’s true – I knew that a long time ago. From what I have seen of her writings, it has no bearing on her objectivity and candor, however.

  • Mike C

    Also, fwiw, “Plain Jane”, in another post you appeared to be an apologist for blatant cheating, and advocating do X to keep the dope unsuspecting.  IMO, that is an infinitely more “disgusting attitude”.

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane:
    “@Lavazza, “Plain Jane: Dating guys that you have no intention of marrying is not a good way to find a guy you want to marry, so it seems you are going for option a).”
    So YOU want to marry people before you get to know them?”
     
    Sorry, I did not understand that I should have read “no intention” as “as yet undecided” or “for the moment without any intentions one way or the other”.

  • Plain Jane

    @Joe, I think her lesbianism affects her work. 
    *
    @ Mike C, ”MOST WOMEN are COMPLETELY OBLIVOUS to the fact that in the current SMP, in terms of sexual activity it is a land of tremendous haves and HAVE NOTs so I generally try to emphasize and reiterate that point at every opportunity. Women really need to get this concept into their heads in order to understand why many men feel the way they do.”
    —–

    Mike, if you read “the manosphere” blogs their viewpoint is that women ARE well aware of the imbalances in the sexual market place and use them to their advantage.
    The have-nots are more than willing to marry women who have much more active sexual pasts than they do.  In fact, they are GRATEFUL that a woman even considers them.  They are happy that someone FINALLY wants to settle down with them and give them regular access to sex – even if its not every day, it is sure as hell MORE than they ever got before. 
    This is one reason why women appear to be so stuck up.  Because they know have-nots are desperate for them one way or another.
    Women are the givers in this market. 
    Men are the dogs grateful for scraps.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is one reason why women appear to be so stuck up. Because they know have-nots are desperate for them one way or another.
      Women are the givers in this market.
      Men are the dogs grateful for scraps.

      This is not how I perceive the SMP working. And the choice of phrasing is unfortunate.

  • Abbot

    “Women are the givers in this market.”
    .
    and obviously, they have LOTS of giving competition
    .
    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40954750/ns/today-relationships/
    ,
    Amid the proliferation of dating websites and matchmaking reality shows, venturing abroad for love has taken on a more acceptable mien. 
    .
    But of course, nobody here is surprised that the so-called imbalance would result in a market correction. Thus the nature of imbalances. 

  • terre

    As I said in another thread, marriage is the only reasonable guarantor of fidelity for a couple. It’s funny how everyone seems to think these are all new problems that have never occurred before in all of human history.
    .
    Marriage is not just a pretty sacrament (in fact, as Plain Jane and other femineers have been quick to point out, the vows are often peripheral); it wasn’t born from a vacuum. There is a reason it existed, there’s a reason it was pushed as the only serious form of intersex relations and there’s a reason it was held in the utmost regard. It protects women (proof of fidelity and a binding oath, which is better than nothing) and men (better odds of paternity, better odds of finding a partner full stop). How arrogant we are to think none of this was understood by our forebearers.

  • Matt T

    @Plain Jane,
     
    If women had all the power in the SMP and were using it, I’m pretty sure this blog wouldn’t exist.

  • Abbot

    “For the American male it is easy to find an old fashion wife in any other country, to appease him at the end of a hard day at work, raise his children, and cook his meals.

    What happens to the American Female? There are no males any where in the world able to cook her meals, massage her feet, raise her children, but the few American males able to comprehend, whose personality allows them to be the care giver instead of the provider.”

    Well, there you have it.  And from an American woman.

    http://www.helium.com/items/612864-reasons-why-so-many-american-men-marry-foreign-women

  • Abbot

    “For the American male it is easy to find an old fashion wife in any other country, to appease him at the end of a hard day at work, raise his children, and cook his meals.

    .
    What happens to the American Female? There are no males any where in the world able to cook her meals, massage her feet, raise her children, but the few American males able to comprehend, whose personality allows them to be the care giver instead of the provider.”
    .
    Well, there you have it.  And from an American woman.
    .
    http://www.helium.com/items/612864-reasons-why-so-many-american-men-marry-foreign-women

  • terre

    Thus the euphemisms – empowerment, express their sexuality, learn boundaries – all designed to get men too be sympathetic and not reject them for their easy indulgence when its time for a life partner. But rather than be honest about it, they feel better stating that if sexual past is used as a selection criteria its akin to slut-shaming and this shaming is somehow born from male insecurity and immaturity. In other words, they are whining and pointing fingers and that’s an old female familiar tune.
    .
    This idea that sex-positivism is a new thing that femmes are trying to sell in this new era of pioneering youthdom is a total crock. Sex-positivism has been sold before; it was called feminism and it was during the 60s. Women intentionally use non-committal phrases like “exploring boundaries”, “having responsible fun” etc. because a) they titillate a woman’s sense of strength and freedom, especially in the prime of her youth when the world is at her feet and b) they’re vague enough that men assume it means “more sex for me”. Only one of these actually comes to fruition.

  • Abbot

    Sorry for the double post. Of course, not all men will overcome laziness and really take control of their matrimonial destinies. And of those who do, even fewer will live in another culture thus shielding their wives from behaviors that are in conflict with preparation for life long marriage and dedication. 

  • Chico

    The picture issued at the top of the post is hilarious and oh so true!

    I wish I had that kind of mystical power over women with my 7″ magic wand. :P

    But alas, there is no equality between the sexes.

  • Matt T

    I always laugh at the feminist canard of “men are afraid of women getting equality in the workplace, that’s why they’re looking for foreign women” because it isn’t true. Reasons why men may prefer foreign women include:
     
    1) American women are getting fatter and fatter (so are men, but whatever), and securing a thin foreign woman looks more and more enticing every year because of it.
    2) To a foreign woman, being American itself is a DHV, so Americans with foreign women don’t need to run game to keep their wives happy and their sex lives active.
    3) Foreign women are less likely to divorce (since they have nothing to go back to), unless they know they can take advantage of the divorce courts favoring women.
    4) Foreign women that select American men play up their feminineness as much as possible to secure a mate. I’m not going to deny that men prefer a woman who can cook and clean, just as women prefer a man earning $300+ K/year.

  • Plain Jane

    “What happens to the American Female? There are no males any where in the world able to cook her meals, massage her feet, raise her children, but the few American males able to comprehend, whose personality allows them to be the care giver instead of the provider.”

    You missed my comments recommending inter-racial and inter-cultural dating, scoping out the foreign exchange students and the like on campus, etc.
    I’ve never had romantic luck with my fellow citizens of my same race.  But when I started dating interracially AND internationally, expats and the like, I met with great success and they tend to be more cultured/refined and romantic than American men of my race.  American men of my race are often jaded and ruined.
    I also recommend American women to travel.
    I’ve travelled for school, work and pleasure and have met wonderful people and gotten marriage proposals.
    The fact is though that MOST Americans will not do this – either male or female.
    Travelling and living amongst diverse cultures is awesome though.   I highly recommend it to man, woman, child.

  • Geoff

    Re: The Foreign Bride option…
    .
    It strikes me as very interesting that, considering all the women available in the USA, and all the paperwork and effort to marry a foreign woman, that there’s a dearth of websites by American women asking “what’s wrong with us that a guy says no thanks to the 200M American women?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It strikes me as very interesting that, considering all the women available in the USA, and all the paperwork and effort to marry a foreign woman, that there’s a dearth of websites by American women asking “what’s wrong with us that a guy says no thanks to the 200M American women?”

      The numbers are small enough that it generally doesn’t make the news or get any real kind of coverage. Also, most Americans assume, rightly or wrongly, that men who seek foreign brides are men who have failed in our own SMP.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan, maybe Paglia has changed lately but I remember reading some of her earlier stuff and she came off as a woman-hater, like the kind you read at The Spearhead.  I got the feeling that she was a misognist male stuck in a female body.
    I also find the concept of a lesbian telling heterosexual women how they should behave in order to get and keep a man beyond ridiculous. 
    Regarding Andrea Dworkin, I’ve not read any of her works but I have read a short summary on her life and she was severly abused throughout her childhood, youth and beyond.  I feel compassion and empathy for her.  Had I gone through what she did I most likely would not be alive.  She’s a strong person for coming out of that.  If she’s “angry” I ask anyone else who might go through that – wouldn’t YOU be?

  • Plain Jane

    @Susan, “This is not how I perceive the SMP working.” 

    Yes but you have to admit its how many men see it working.  You’ve read Roissy, The Spearhead, etc.  That’s what they all say.  That women know the power they wield over desperate guys and they wield it to their advantage.  Those men are very pissed off over this.
    I’m not saying it’s right, from either the male or female side, I’m just saying thats how these guys perceive it and they might be right to some degree.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That women know the power they wield over desperate guys and they wield it to their advantage. Those men are very pissed off over this.
      I’m not saying it’s right, from either the male or female side, I’m just saying thats how these guys perceive it and they might be right to some degree.

      Any woman prioritizing the wielding of power over men is not interested in exercising it over male guys who are not already successful with women. I don’t think this comment makes any sense.

  • Abbot

    “I’m not saying it’s right, from either the male or female side, I’m just saying thats how these guys perceive it and they might be right to some degree.”
    .
    Then, what would be the expected view of American women? How are they, as human beings, to be perceived? As pillars of their community? As upstanding citizens? or ego maniacal haughty entitlement queens? Will mommy be respected by her children? Admired by her husband unconditionally? 

  • Plain Jane

    “Then, what would be the expected view of American women? How are they, as human beings, to be perceived?”
    The same as American men.

  • Stephenie Rowling

     
    I didn’t know Andrea Dworkin was a prostitute. *Shudder* I can’t imagine she paid the bills with that gig – she’s the ugliest woman I have ever laid eyes on.
    @Susan
    Must of the skankiest women I ever seen had been prostitutes. One of my Alpha friends told me that women got it this one wrong, beauty is important but variety is more and looking for a lady of the night is like shopping for underwear: when you can afford it you get silk briefs but if you need underwear a 1 dollar boxers will do, so she could had supported herself very well if she was around enough and got some regulars.
     
    “what’s wrong with us that a guy says no thanks to the 200M American women?”
    I had seen an explosion of sites made by males complaining about American women: fireyourwife.com, boycottamericanwomen.blogspot.com …One will think that no matter how insecure you think men are if you see a lot of them chanting the same tune you will check out your theories just to make sure…no? Nevermind.
     
     
    Marriage is not just a pretty sacrament (in fact, as Plain Jane and other femineers have been quick to point out, the vows are often peripheral); it wasn’t born from a vacuum. There is a reason it existed, there’s a reason it was pushed as the only serious form of intersex relations and there’s a reason it was held in the utmost regard. It protects women (proof of fidelity and a binding oath, which is better than nothing) and men (better odds of paternity, better odds of finding a partner full stop). How arrogant we are to think none of this was understood by our forebearers.
     
    Indeed one of the things I criticize the most of feminism that instead of checking what used to work and what not and tried to keep the good while fighting the bad they decided. “Marriage is institutionalized rape! Let’s destroy it!” with no measuring the consequences.
     
     
    Florence: There is a “sex hierarchy” and most people will shame people participating in the boxes they do not participate in themselves. I have yet to meet somebody who does not.
     
    WORD! Try to find a feminist praising the virtues of virginity as a valid sexual choice. Virginity is mocked and shamed as repressed, prude, close minded, patriarchy puppet and they claim that virgins will regret not having experience that they will cheat and all that jazz. Is completely normal among sex camps to shame each other.
     
     
     

  • Brendan

    Sorry for the double post.  Need to get used to the new formatting. :)
    .
    Susan, maybe Paglia has changed lately but I remember reading some of her earlier stuff and she came off as a woman-hater, like the kind you read at The Spearhead.  I got the feeling that she was a misognist male stuck in a female body.I also find the concept of a lesbian telling heterosexual women how they should behave in order to get and keep a man beyond ridiculous..
    .
    How can she be a woman hater while being a lesbian?  By the way, from what I understand she is a bisexual woman who has been in relationships with women, rather than a “cut and dried” lesbian.  Total, cut and dried lesbians tend to hate men because we serve no purpose for them whatsoever.  Paglia doesn’t hate men, but she can’t realistically be seen as hating women either — she’s chosen to be in relationships with women!  Doesn’t sound like hate to me..Is she frank about women?  Yep.  And, being someone who has chosen to be in relationships with women, she can have a perspective that seems male — because she’s in the position of having relationships with women, and has that in common with most men.  Frankly I think many lesbians or bisexual women share quite a few of her perspectives about women in the context of relationships, but hold their tongues for ideological reasons and not wanting to say something off script.  But not Camille.  She’s a truth teller, which is why she’s hated by feminists.

  • Abbot

    “The same as American men.”
    .
    You wold be right if they behaved the same. Its been discussed and proven right here on HUS that is not the case. American women are perceived differently than American men and women globally. There is a minority who carry a high degree of dignity, but they tend to get snatched up while quite young. The rest are left to explore this, experiment with that, rant, pontificate, demand not to be shamed…etc
    .
    This is the world view of how American women treat others – are these words familiar to you?:
    .
    The have-nots are more than willing to marry women who have much more active sexual pasts than they do.  In fact, they are GRATEFUL that a woman even considers them.  They are happy that someone FINALLY wants to settle down with them and give them regular access to sex – even if its not every day, it is sure as hell MORE than they ever got before. 

    This is one reason why women appear to be so stuck up.  Because they know have-nots are desperate for them one way or another.Women are the givers in this market. Men are the dogs grateful for scraps.

    .
    Not exactly what qualifies to be a good citizen or worthy of motherhood.

  • terre

    Camille Pagila is alright, although her obsessive genderism can grow tiresome, as does her shock jock libertarianism. Christina Hoff Summers I find less favorable; she’s basically a feminist trying to ‘rescue’ feminism.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Christina Hoff Summers I find less favorable; she’s basically a feminist trying to ‘rescue’ feminism.

      I appreciate Sommers because she has correctly identified (and written a book about) how feminism is failing boys, especially in schools. She was kicked out of the corps for that.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You wold be right if they behaved the same. Its been discussed and proven right here on HUS that is not the case. American women are perceived differently than American men and women globally. There is a minority who carry a high degree of dignity, but they tend to get snatched up while quite young. The rest are left to explore this, experiment with that, rant, pontificate, demand not to be shamed…etc
     
    I think the best proof that there is a different perception of American women is that we don’t have the same amount of mail order husbands that we have of mail order brides. We know that were there is a market there is money to me make.

  • Abbot

    “We know that were there is a market there is money to me make.”
    .
    Yep, Match.com makes a FORTUNE from its separate international site. So does eharmony. Thousands of women from developing countries have FREE memberships on those sites. But I assume that few if any foreign men are lining up to marry American women via dating services. Also, foreign men from developing nations tend to be far far more domineering [read: less feminists brainwashed] than American men and that would lead to conflicts with hell-bent-on-equality American women. 

  • Geoff

    @Plain Jane,
    “I also find the concept of a lesbian telling heterosexual women how they should behave in order to get and keep a man beyond ridiculous.”
    .
    I think this is the first time I’ve been 100% in agreement with something that Plain Jane has said.  I’d go a little farther though, and say that women who want to be in a long-term marriage with an alpha male should seek out advice from women who’ve successfully done so.  I suspect most of those women are not slutty, and are in fact very supportive of their husbands in a traditional kind of way.

  • GudEnuf

    Dworkin was sex-positive?
    “Male-dominant gender hierarchy, however, seems immune to reform … This may be because intercourse itself is immune to reform. In it, female is bottom, stigmatized. Intercourse remains a means or the means of physiologically making a woman inferior: communicating to her cell by cell her own inferior status, impressing it on her, burning it into her by shoving it into her, over and over, pushing and thrusting until she gives up and gives in—which is called surrender in the male lexicon. In the experience of intercourse, she loses the Capacity for integrity because her body—the basis of privacy and freedom in the material world for all human beings—is entered and occupied; the boundaries of her physical body are—neutrally speaking—violated… Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men’s contempt for women.”
    In fairness, Dworkins later backtracked claimed she was “misinterpreted”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf
      Thanks for that Dworkin quote – she’s often quoted as saying “All sex is rape” but I think that is incorrect. What you have here sums it up accurately. As for claiming one has been misinterpreted, that is the frequent refuge for insincerely apologies…”I’m sorry you got mad.”

  • Zammo

    One day he just came straight out and asked me, “if we got married would you be willing to sign a pre-nup?” This dude had less than 1,000 dollars in the bank!
    A man’s value increases with age, a woman’s value decreases with age. These are biological facts.
    So the man in question currently has little in the way of assets. As the years accumulate, so does his bank account. As a woman’s years accumulate… well, no comment.
    A poor, young man would do well to get a pre-nup.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A poor, young man would do well to get a pre-nup.

      Yes, if he is a creative, entrepreneurial sort who has big plans and ideas. Plain Jane said that this guy worked in a low paying job and moved back in with his parents. Based on Jane’s comments, I think she’s a bit older – so this guy probably isn’t going places. I think the more relevant question is why Jane would even be dating a person with these prospects when she is looking for a partner.

  • rick

    Ashton Kutcher – the moderately articulate man’s Keanu Reeves.

  • GudEnuf

    Oh yeah, and congratulations on the Brainz, Susan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh yeah, and congratulations on the Brainz, Susan.

      Hey, thanks!

  • rick

    I might also add that her empowered at night/distraught in the morning wave is just a small data point that reflects the long-term rise and fall of that dating/mating strategy.
    Kind of a fractal thing, sorta.
     

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Hi Plain socalled Jane,
    Still talking outta the side of your neck, I see.:)
    .
    Replies below:
    .
    PJ: You missed my comments recommending inter-racial and inter-cultural dating, scoping out the foreign exchange students and the like on campus, etc.
    .
    O: No, no one’s “missed it”. No one’s buying what you’re selling, its just you have yet to figure that out yet.
    .
    PJ: I’ve never had romantic luck with my fellow citizens of my same race. 
    .
    O: You mean other White guys? No need to be coy about it, you know who. Come on with it!
    .
    PJ: But when I started dating interracially AND internationally, expats and the like, I met with great success and they tend to be more cultured/refined and romantic than American men of my race.  American men of my race are often jaded and ruined.
    .
    PJ:  Then I ask you the same thing I’ve asked the guys who have argued that American Women are the worst: why are you still here in the States? Why haven’t you moved abroad where all te great guys actually are? Please explain?
    .
    PJ: I also recommend American women to travel.
    .
    O: Sure; hopefully they’ll decide to stay over there! That’ll definitely be a good thing. You could lead the way…
    .
    PJ: I’ve travelled for school, work and pleasure and have met wonderful people and gotten marriage proposals.
    .
    O: ANd you turned all these wonderful marital proposals from all these refined and cultured Men for what reason now? Sorry, I missed that part…
    .
    PJ: The fact is though that MOST Americans will not do this – either male or female.
    .
    O: False. Some of the world’s largest businesses thrive on American tourism.
    .
    PJ: Travelling and living amongst diverse cultures is awesome though.   I highly recommend it to man, woman, child.
    .
    O: PJ, you aren’t talking to ingrates here. We all know what airplanes look like, if and when we wanna raise up, we know what to do, OK?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian
      I’ll second that LOL. Plain Jane really annoys the hell out of you, haha.

  • Lavazza

    Obsidian: LOL!

  • Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Classy Edition()

  • Florence

    On the topic of intercultural and international dating, I would like to point out that in the EU, it is extremely common and even fashionable to date people from another EU or North American Country. I know a guy who puts a flag on each country he has had a gf from. I myself have had an English, Dutch, and a Canadian bf, but that is because I’ve lived in different places for long years. EU men and women are very open to dating people from other countries and the US is one of their favorites, along with Canada and Australia. EXPAT and international drinks are constantly organized in countries such as The Netherlands, where the locals can meet the internationals. There are a lot of Americans (both women and men) married and living in Europe. The world gets smaller and smaller and more interconnected. As for “foreign women” being “old-fashioned”, you must be clearer on which “forein women” and in which aspect are they more old-fashioned. If you mean fashion in the sense of way of dressing, the US is actually lagging behind. Most of the fashion is created outside of the US. As for other aspects of the modern woman, I find the American society slightly more conservative, especially in the southern states. In the EU, people do not tolerate racism and discrimination against people with various sexual orientations. In very liberal countries such as The Netherlands, prostitution, soft drugs, and same-sex marriages are legal and yet the country is one of the richest amongst EU countries and having highest standards of living worldwide. Some EU countries have much higher life-expectancies than the US does, even though most of the modern medical equipment and major break-through scientific findings still occur in the US.
    .
    @ Matt T
    “To a foreign woman, being American itself is a DHV, so Americans with foreign women don’t need to run game to keep their wives happy and their sex lives active.”
    – That is a lie. Get over yourself! People will not marry you only because you are an American.
    “Foreign women that select American men play up their feminineness as much as possible to secure a mate. I’m not going to deny that men prefer a woman who can cook and clean, just as women prefer a man earning $300+ K/year.”
    – If you make 100, 200, or 300+K/year, then you should be able to marry comfortably in the US. I am sure that there are thousands of females there who don’t make nowhere near that and that women who do make this kind of money would be more than happy to marry a guy who makes the same kind of money as them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence
      I’ve always heard that foreign men find American women loud, brash and unattractive. I dated a Dutch guy back in the day that I met in Europe and he was quite eager, but that was the early 80s, and American culture has gotten considerably worse since then…

  • Florence

    @ PJ
    “@Joe, I think her lesbianism affects her work. ”
    – People who have a different sexual orientation are often very intellectual, talented and smart. One’s sexual orientation has little to do with their work.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Florence…
    “In the EU, people do not tolerate racism”…actually it seems that a great deal of anti-Semitism is being tolerated in Europe. See for example this Washington Post article by a member of the British House of Commons, who says “Hatred of Jews has reached new heights in Europe”
    Don’t know if I can include mutiple links in the same comment, but a rabbi in Germany recently asserted that  “It is not safe for Jews to walk around the state of Brandenburg in Germany while wearing a yarmulke or other visible symbol of Judaism, the state’s new chief Rabbi Shaul Nekrich said in an interview with the Berliner Zeitung published January 5. It is very dangerous for a Jew to wear a kippah, he said, unless “someone is versed in martial arts.”
    In addition to the toleration of anti-Semitism, there is plenty of evidence that many European governments and societies have bee far too tolerant of the abuse of women–both Muslim women and non-Muslim women–by Islamic fundamentalists and extremists.
     

  • Florence

    @ Susan
    “The women I mentioned are the young faces of feminism on the American scene today. They lecture at colleges, sit on panels, and write books. Lena Chen and Shelby Knox are two more that have made a name for themselves.”
    – If anything, I’d congratulate them rather than shame them. Ms Parry has “walked the walk” for us young women and publicly shares her experiences so that we can learn from them and make our own choices later in life. As a young woman, I will not make the same choices as her per say, but I respect her work and I respect the fact that she is fighting for the cause, just like I respect and appreciate you for creating this blog, which has the purpose of helping young women make better decisions at the SMP. I have learned a ton by being on it.
    .
    “I can’t quite get a handle on what the feminist movement today is, and I don’t think feminists can either”
    – I agree with that. Part of the reason is that the feminist movement is fairly young and reflects the views of many different people, who often contradict each other. It is hard to point at one particular feminist and say that s/he defines the feminist movement more than another. Still, there remains a gap in the understanding of the causes of the gender gap, whether biological or social. What is more important is that the people involved in the movement are all fighting for a common cause.
    In addition, the feminist movement is a free movement and anyone can participate and say/do whatever they feel is right, even if it is not necessarily correct.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence
      Thanks for your kind feedback about HUS. And I agree that Ms. Parry deserves credit for her honesty. It can’t be pleasant to share such a story with the massive online audience that The Frisky has. She has shared the details of her sex life online, a move that may come back to haunt her, so I do applaud her courage.
      .

      In addition, the feminist movement is a free movement and anyone can participate and say/do whatever they feel is right, even if it is not necessarily correct.

      I disagree with this completely. Several people have mentioned Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, two women who are most definitely not welcome in the corps. The women who carry the flag are extremely judgmental about who is a “real” feminist. Just look at the recent uproar about Sarah Palin and other conservative women who claim to be feminist. In general, the feminist attitude toward interlopers is “It’s my way or the highway.”

  • Abbot

    “you must be clear on which foreign women”
    .
    In the vastly larger world with very few exceptions, American women do not “date” internationally. They are very hung up on a rigidly defined relationship paradigm and need to be in a place where there is at least a chance of being treated “equally” by men [and can have a latte]. Good luck outside of North America, Western Europe or Australia. 
    .
    When a man “dates” internationally seeking long-term marital success with a woman enriched by her family and not empowered by sexual recreation or some nonsense movement she has never even heard of, he DOES NOT go to Western Europe, Australia or other American clone nation. 
    .
    Is that “clear” now?

  • Abbot

    “she is fighting for the cause”
    .
    This so-called “cause” goes nowhere if men do not accept. The marriage strike. Developing countries seen as a wife mecca. This blog. All signs of a failing cause.

  • Florence

    @ Abbot
    “[…..] other American clone nation”
    .
    Whaaaaaaat????? You must be kidding me!!!! If you think that those nations are in anyway similar  or clones of  America, you must really get out and see how the rest of the world lives!!!

  • Abbot

    The subject here is women who best qualify for marriage. Those women live in countries south of Texas and to some extent Eastern Europe, FSU and parts of Asia. I do not believe any more clarity is needed. 

  • Abbot

    “its my way or the highway”
    .
    That is also the attitude directed at men. Increasingly, men are happily taking the highway. Without men on board, the “movement” will collapse much faster. The  rejection of a few dissenting women is meaningless in comparison.

  • Florence

    @ Susan
    “I’ve always heard that foreign men find American women loud, brash and unattractive. I dated a Dutch guy back in the day that I met in Europe and he was quite eager, but that was the early 80s, and American culture has gotten considerably worse since then…”
    .
    – I also keep hearing that, but it has only been in recent years. However, most men are intelligent enough to know that this is a bold generalization given the fact that the USA is a very large and very diverse country. Most of them are quite interested in having an American or a Canadian gf, especially if their work often takes them to N. America on business trips. Men are particularly excited at the idea of exploring a girl who is different than the crowd of girls they are used to in their home countries and so are women to some extent and that is what makes intercultural relationships work-out very well sometimes. In other words, people want something different than what they are used to at home, even if what they are used to isn’t necessarily bad. A guy I know from the UK, dated a girl from Phoenix, AZ for 5 years! She had however moved to the UK for school/work. The biggest problem with intercultural dating is that sooner or later one of the two partners either has to move back or decide to stay. If the connection hasn’t become strong enough for people to make marital commitments, people usually just move-on.

  • Florence

    @ Abbot
    “Those women live in countries south of Texas and to some extent Eastern Europe, FSU and parts of Asia. I do not believe any more clarity is needed. ”
    .
    Most of Eastern Europe is now part of the EU. EU men definitely present a good competition against American men for women from Eastern Europe and Russia. The economical situation there is rapidly improving, allowing women to study in prestigious European schools, be economically independent and to have more freedom to select a man.
    .
    On that note, I think there is nothing wrong for men to date chicks from countries south of Texas, Asia, the EU and others. Many men find Asian chicks extremely good looking. Not to mention that a non-American wife, would probably teach your children more than one language and would enrich their cultural knowledge. I would strongly encourage men and women to engage more in intercultural dating. You never know whom you might fall in love with!

  • Brendan

    A lot of people seem to attribute Dworkin’s ideas to her history as a prostitute, but the odd thing was that many of the sex-positive feminists who really disagreed with Dworkin were former prostitutes and porn stars.  It’s certainly not the case that all prostitutes have Dworkin’s view of sex — Tracy Quan is a notable example of a contra case.  I think Dworkin’s views had more to do with the ideas floating around in her brain than her history as a prostitute.  Abuse and mental illness are probably more to blame for her hatemongering than prostitution was.
    .
    Cathy Young had an interesting obituary in Reason magazine here:  http://reason.com/archives/2005/04/19/womans-hating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan
      Cathy Young is another writer I respect enormously, also vilified by feminists. I loved her concluding line:

      If this is feminism, no wonder it’s become an f-word.

  • Sox

    @PJ
    Responding to your question in the other thread since it’s relevant here. Yes, I’ve lived among a variety of age groups and different socioeconomic levels. The majority have been people my age.
    .
    All Americans have a lousy image abroad. I was often told, “you’re not how I thought you’d be”. From a SMP standpoint though women definitely seem to have it worse. You should hear what Russian men say about American women. Out at the clubs I watched as non of the American girls got approached and when they finally approached guys to dance, they were shot down.
    .
    Ladies, please don’t get the idea that were just women-bashing here. Most American men have lost their essential masculinity in the same way it seems women are losing their femininity. People keep mentioning the alpha/beta divide without noting that in the past the divide wasnt likely so pronounced. Men are stagnating and becoming ever more beta and omega while women are filling the vacuum wondering where all the real men are.
    .
    Anyway, fwiw, I’ve dated women from the UK, Russia, France, and been close with a lot of s
    Spaniards. They honestly just seemed to appreciate me more than American women do, and corroborated my own view of my SMV. There was less of an edge to them. Granted the Russian and Brit both had issues of their own of another nature. Also I think expat dating is usually doomed to fail once the original novelty is worn off, unless one of you truly loves the others culture enough to assimilate yourself.
    .
    As far as empowerment, the “feeling like a goddess” seems like a perfect characterization of the dynamic behind the term. Personally I’m just against it in the same way I’m against the self esteem movement and post modernist thought. I think a lot of these rationalizations are thinly veiled attempts by insecure people to get instant validation/power fixes/etc, who only later find out that being so utterly self serving is really a lonely, empty way to live.

  • Abbot

    “I think there is nothing wrong for men to date chicks from countries south of Texas, Asia, the EU and others”

    That’s nice, but really, whether you or any American women considers it wrong or right is irrelevant. 

    “Not to mention that a non-American wife, would probably teach your children more than one language and would enrich their cultural knowledge.”

    Not to mention that a non-American originating from most of the planet would have no need to “explore her sexuality” or whatever the feel-good euphemism du jour is.  Not to mention that she has not been to spring break, spent many years drinking and screwing in her twenties thereby gutting her emotions and reproductive organs, being brainwashed by Screw and the City etc. In other words, her outlook is wife and mother. Men who do not want wife and mother should leave these jewels alone.

  • Florence

    @ Susan
    “Several people have mentioned Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, two women who are most definitely not welcome in the corps. The women who carry the flag are extremely judgmental about who is a “real” feminist. Just look at the recent uproar about Sarah Palin and other conservative women who claim to be feminist. In general, the feminist attitude toward interlopers is “It’s my way or the highway.”
    .
    You are right about that. Thanks for pointing it out. People would certainly raise their voices (they actually have a moral obligation to do so) when they strongly disagree with someone, such as in the case of Sarah Palin. I am however, not entirely sure if one can rightfully proclaim themselves as “the real feminist”, given the fact that exact criteria for what a real feminist is, haven’t been developed yet. Certainly, a feminist is not just an evil, promiscuous woman with hairy legs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I am however, not entirely sure if one can rightfully proclaim themselves as “the real feminist”, given the fact that exact criteria for what a real feminist is, haven’t been developed yet.

      Perhaps not, but there is a long list of things that a feminist isn’t. Pro-life for example. Why is that?

  • Florence

    @ Abbot
    Screw and the City is watched internationally, unless you go to a country where people don’t have TVs. Not every woman who watches it is necessarily “brainwashed” by it.
     
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Screw and the City is watched internationally, unless you go to a country where people don’t have TVs. Not every woman who watches it is necessarily “brainwashed” by it.

      I believe that for women now in college and 5 years on either side, SATC was the most damaging American cultural influence in a generation.

  • Abbot

    Well, less than half the households in Latin America have TV’s. Even so, a show like that in isolation of all the other garbage means that women there could not relate to it as they do not participate in those behaviors. For the most part, they see American women as matrimonial pariah. Its good for American women that few American men travel through the region…for now.

  • Geoff

    Alpha men are making out like gangbusters, Betas are screwed, and most women don’t really see a problem with themselves–it’s the dearth of “good men.”
    .
    Starting to think American society’s doomed (and not just for the financial crisis that hasn’t hit yet).
     

  • AnonymousF

    @everyone advocating international dating as some kind of cure-all: Plain Jane and the guys

    Dating someone from a foreign culture is one thing. Marrying a foreigner and raising children with one is a whole different ball game. Yes, lots of couples make it work, but generally the more dissimilar two people’s backgrounds, the more potential for discord and misunderstanding. As with the money discussion on the other thread, different national backgrounds don’t have to be a dealbreaker but, all things being equal, difference in this area is a significant* minus.

    My fiancee and I have the mildest version of a nationality difference (I’m a very Americanized foreigner, we’re the same religion and same ethnicity), and it’s still challenging to resolve the differences in some of our unspoken assumptions. And we don’t even have kids yet.

    *It’s a much smaller minus if one party is completely expatted to the other’s country and has essentially decided to adopt that nationality and culture wholesale.  

  • Abbot

    If American women do not regain respect among men and go back to marrying at a much younger age then those “good men” will go off and find women who will. Everyone gets what they want if they try.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Sox,
    .
    “Anyway, fwiw, I’ve dated women from the UK, Russia, France, and been close with a lot of Spaniards. They honestly just seemed to appreciate me more than American women do, and corroborated my own view of my SMV. There was less of an edge to them.”
    .
    Much of white-collar feminism in this country appears to be summed up thusly: “don’t take any shit from men.” This, what FredOnEverything calls “the chip,” is now a part of social-education and self-esteem programming as early as middle school, so it’s no surprise men feel undervalued by women. European women (my experience has mostly been with grad students) are no shrinking violets, but they generally aren’t going to “step to you” until there’s a good reason to do so.
    .
    As to the American image abroad, a good number of women I’ve seen traveling abroad dress like Snookie or someone like that – spaghetti straps or tube tops, Uggs, tacky skirts, loud sunglasses, bad-taste makeup and an overall discongruent image. All of them? Not at all, but enough to confirm their preconception that Americans are skanky with bad fashion taste and lousy attitudes.
    .
    My experience is that in Mexico as well as Spain, the south of France and Italy, it’s a matter of pride to not “dress poor.” Maybe there’s more of a class system people are playing against? It’s a class marker to dress well, and people wear their Sunday best on Sunday no matter what class they are. It’s not like the US where spring is the time to break out the tank tops and budget flipflops.
    .
    Americans in Europe are perceived as loud and offensive, but simultaneously naive and standoffish wrt things like bargaining (pyrotechnic bargaining is a way of life in Mexico and the Riviera) and greeting people (smooching on the cheek is de rigeur, with up to three kisses required in places like Belgium).
    .
    For an American man (or woman) to be a polite guest – to take the time to study up and emulate the styles and customs of the place they are visiting – is a compliment to the locals and a big DHV.

  • Abbot

    “It’s a much smaller minus if one party is completely expatted to the other’s country and has essentially decided to adopt that nationality and culture wholesale.”
    .
    That is happening more with men who retire early and can make their savings more than triple in value in a lot of countries. Its a huge plus because the divorce rates are much much lower and she can’t take you to the cleaners anyway. The risk of cultural difference pales in comparison to the risk of trying to stay married to an American in the US. When men are done providing empowerment services to multiple American women, they should look to settle in a foreign country, marry and prosper. Simply because….they can.

  • Florence

    “For an American man (or woman) to be a polite guest – to take the time to study up and emulate the styles and customs of the place they are visiting – is a compliment to the locals and a big DHV.”
    -ABSOLUTELY!!! I would add that trying to learn at least a few phrases in the language spoken by the host country also makes a great impression.

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  • Geoff

    @Susan,
    “Perhaps not, but there is a long list of things that a feminist isn’t. Pro-life for example. Why is that?”
    .
    I’d guess it’s because children are an inconvenience to the freedom to live life the way you want to.  Also, studies have shown that women are much more conservative after they have children, which conflicts with feminism’s desire to grow its membership.  There’s also the argument that the patriarchy intends to constrict women’s freedom by forcing women to bring children to term. How that’s different from a patriarchy preventing women from killing their one-year-old child because he’s cramping their style at the singles clubs is a matter of the calendar.
     
     
     
     

  • Abbot

    “I believe that for women now in college and 5 years on either side, SATC was the most damaging American cultural influence in a generation.”
    .
    Is that revelation known out in the mainstream society? Some years ago, I saw gaggles of young women going to the theaters like a mob to celebrate this sort of thing. That was very telling. What is most shocking is that to them its a given that men will go along with this cultural attitude that is owned only by half the dating population. Simply amazing. On a first date, any women who would go on about how much she liked that show put her permanently on the non-wife list. A good weeder-outer.

  • PJL

    This article from the economist, in tandem with the post above, forces us to ask whether or not the “repressive” social mores of the past actually arose from people’s natural needs as social animals to pair bond?
    Whenever I browse HUS, I’m almost surprised at how conservative Susan Walsh appears. On this particular issue, it seems as if the progressive forces of science, etc. appear to swing the other way.
    Always interesting.
     
    ~PJL.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PJL
      Good to see you! I’d missed that article, thanks for sending it along.

      Whenever I browse HUS, I’m almost surprised at how conservative Susan Walsh appears

      Really? How come? FWIW, I would agree that my views on sex and relationships are fairly conservative, though I am no supporter of abstinence. However, I’d like to note that my views are not based on politics or any idea of what is moral – I try to stick strictly to what works. The article at The Economist is interesting because it measures precisely that.

      On this particular issue, it seems as if the progressive forces of science, etc. appear to swing the other way.

      Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean here. The article swings toward the conservative, don’t you think?

  • DF

    Florence you don’t know what your talking about
    Most of the Dashing romantic foreign male archetypes, that american women admire, happen to aslo come from tradition cultures, with strong patriarchal values.
    Many a hilarious tale, of american women finding out that somethings just don’t fly when the romance is over and she finally meets the keeper of tradition and family propreity:
    The Mother in Law – who’ll watch her with a suaronian eye for any undeserving behaviour for her ever-so dearly loved son.

  • Plain Jane

    @ DF, “Florence you don’t know what your talking about
    Most of the Dashing romantic foreign male archetypes, that american women admire, happen to aslo come from tradition cultures, with strong patriarchal values.
    Many a hilarious tale, of american women finding out that somethings just don’t fly when the romance is over and she finally meets the keeper of tradition and family propreity:
    The Mother in Law – who’ll watch her with a suaronian eye for any undeserving behaviour for her ever-so dearly loved son.”
    ——
    I’ve had personal experience with this, however only from South Asians (sorry Susan, its true!)
    From Europeans and Africans (from Africa itself), I’ve not experienced that.
    There’s many things about “traditional cultures” that I appreciate, and of course some things I don’t, just like with my own culture.  We have to take the best of both I feel that people who are well-travelled, 3rd culture or “global citizens” so to speak, are able to do this.

  • Plain Jane

    About SATC, I thought the show was quite conventional in the way it portrayed 4 women desperate for male companionship.  Samantha was the only one hell-bent on hook-ups and one-night-stands, the other 3 wanted long term relationships and talked about that ALL THE TIME.  Even Samantha was a little too desperate for male attention in my opinion.  I’d hardly label the show “feminist”.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Sox, “You should hear what Russian men say about American women.”

    Since that was directed at me, Sox, I’ll let you know I don’t care what Russian men say about American women.  Russian men are known for being lazy, uncouth alcoholics, that’s one reason why Russian women are so keen on getting out of their country and landing them a NON Russian husband. 
    I’ve seen Russian women all over South Asia trying to land Indian and Nepali men. 
    Like Russian women, I also prefer non-Russian men, and my aesthetic tastes lean more towards milk and dark chocolates.
    So what Russian men or other men like them think about me or American women in general is irrelevent.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Plain Jane,
    That may be, but the problem is that what Russian Men think about American Women is hardly unique, and Ms. Walsh has talked about this recently with Italian Men. Simply put, there is going to be a Russian Woman style exodus of American Women heading off to find their Prince Charming in a far off place, because those guys know the deal with American Women such as you. The stats speak for themselves.

    O.

  • Abbot

    “About SATC, I thought the show was quite conventional in the way it portrayed 4 women desperate for male companionship.”
    .
    Conventional. Really? From who’s perspective? Remember they were already in their thirties and this is the count over about five years:
    .
    “Of the four women, public relations exec Samantha racked up the most sexual partners. She bedded 41 men and one woman, while Carrie hooked up with 18, Charlotte 18 and Miranda 17.” Add college and romps in their twenties and if that is the convention, well there is clear unashamed reasons to avoid a women who would think that. 

    .
    if women who watched regularly consider that conventional, men please do not let any woman like that have your children, especially daughters. SATC is a great weed-out tool. Use it.
    .
    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/2008/05/29/2008-05-29_in_sex_and_the_city_number_of_sex_partne-2.html

  • Florence

    @DF
    “Most of the Dashing romantic foreign male archetypes, that American women admire, happen to also come from tradition cultures, with strong patriarchal values.”
    .
    Good point. I never mentioned anything about foreign men being more romantic or more gentle than American men. I do not like stereotyping or using “reputations” to generalize about the men or women of a certain nation. Every culture has its positive and negative examples. Culture does play a role in the way men treat women, but certain male behaviors appear to be universal. Depending on the environment (society) some of these behaviors seem to be more pronounced or suppressed.
    .
    What has always struck me as very unique to American men is how committed they are to keeping the traditional “nuclear family model” as a vital institution in producing and maintaining a healthy society. However, in recent years they’ve gotten a reputation for being commitment-phobics. I am not an American, but I’ve lived in N.America since childhood and can safely say that I’ve been quite westernized. However, right now I am back in Europe for some years mainly for personal reasons of school/work/travel.
    .
    Regarding SATC – I hate that show. I’ve always found it boring and annoying and never really understood all the fuzz around it.

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  • DF

    If American women knew the jokes told by foreign men in bars around the world they would be horrified.
    American men tend to be seen as clownish soft husbands by foreign women, as contradistinguished to their more callous men.
    btw Plain Jane, navigating culture is not something you neccessarily get to pick and choose like a hotel buffet.

  • Lavazza

    Badger: Four kisses is the norm in Bordeaux. Three kisses in most of France and only two in Paris.

  • Florence

    @Lavazza
    3 kisses in Holland, and 2 in Italy.

  • DF

    “Don’t like to generalised”
    True, but that was alwasy a given. Remember that many nations went to war over culture, so I wouldn’t be so dismissive. If you are in Europe then here is a test for you florence ask any european beside you if all eurpoeans think alike, behave and value the same things. They will laugh at the thought.

  • Stephenie Rowling

     


    I disagree with this completely. Several people have mentioned Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, two women who are most definitely not welcome in the corps. The women who carry the flag are extremely judgmental about who is a “real” feminist. Just look at the recent uproar about Sarah Palin and other conservative women who claim to be feminist. In general, the feminist attitude toward interlopers is “It’s my way or the highway.”
     
    Cosigning this. Outspoken feminists have an unwritten bible where only certain things are allowed and everything that deviates from it are considered the enemy or fake phony feminism. Do an exercise and go to the big ones Feministing or Jezebel and claim that you are a feminist pro-life or that you are a virgin feminist that wants to wait till marriage or that you are a feminist that plans to stay at home and raise 8 kids with your husband …and see how this is received and get back at us.

     
    Screw and the City is watched internationally, unless you go to a country where people don’t have TVs. Not every woman who watches it is necessarily “brainwashed” by it.

     
    I believe that for women now in college and 5 years on either side, SATC was the most damaging American cultural influence in a generation.
     
    I have to agree with that Screw and the city sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills, the only time they showed something of genuine dangers was when Samantha was getting the AIDS test (because you know heartbreak, depression and disappointment are not important and not even register on women), also this women were rich, well dressed, partied up all night, and they never grew older, the fact that the last movie supposedly takes place 5 years after the last one with the actresses looking the same and being able to get men like they were 20 something is again part of the eternal teenagerdhood that makes women think they can decide to settle down whenever they please and men are just waiting in line for them to do so. I will say the closest to real women were Charlotte and Miranda. And I will say Samantha being desperate to hang into her aging body because all she had was sex, so once is over she got nothing else to love life was the only bit that was trying to be realistic and still in the end a magic cocktail of pills allows her to keep screwing like time doesn’t move…Yeah right. Total BS that women are eating up like chocolates. I will say Desperate Housewives also has this problem with the years passing the kids growing up and they keeping the actresses looking the same. Women get older people!
     
     
    Much of white-collar feminism in this country appears to be summed up thusly: “don’t take any shit from men.” This, what FredOnEverything calls “the chip,” is now a part of social-education and self-esteem programming as early as middle school, so it’s no surprise men feel undervalued by women. European women (my experience has mostly been with grad students) are no shrinking violets, but they generally aren’t going to “step to you” until there’s a good reason to do so.
    Ding Ding Ding we got a winner! Women from other cultures are no doormats, they just don’t spent every waking moment thinking that a man is just waiting for her to drop her guard to go and abuse them, thus if he didn’t took the trash out one day is not because he thinks he is better and he is making a political statement of superiority, he mostly just forgot. Mostly we pick our battles and try to get to know our men to know when we are going too far, because we know we are not perfect either so thinking that our way is the best way all the time its not part of our mentality.
     
     
    Also, studies have shown that women are much more conservative after they have children, which conflicts with feminism’s desire to grow its membership.
     
    I do wonder about that. How feminism recruits more women? Philosophies like religion spread through being born in it or being convinced to join. Feminists are not breeding more than conservative and other women, at least a third of them are forsaken motherhood and the ones that do become mother usually only have one or two kids. So obviously the route is propaganda. And given that they attack conservative women in a daily basis is not through them so it makes sense to convince them that they are having the time of their live by being sluts and not having kids or/and stable partners. I will think that is why they kick out everyone that is regretting their ways, they are not helping them to get more women convinced that the way of happiness is through penises and money and no one to spent it but yourself. The Kool Aid recipe most go unchanged for it to work.

  • Abbot

    “I have to agree with that Screw and the city sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills”
    .
    and what message did men walk away with from that?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Abbot
    and what message did men walk away with from that?
     
    Don’t understand the question. Screw and the city was aimed at women.So ???

  • Florence

    @ DF
    “If American women knew the jokes told by foreign men in bars around the world they would be horrified.”
    .

    That is true. I have heard some unpleasant stories from men regarding what they’ve observed of American women abroad.
    .

    “American men tend to be seen as clownish soft husbands by foreign women, as contra-distinguished to their more callous men.”

    .
    Clownish – no. Soft husbands-yes, but if anything I always thought that most women like that. In the EU, most men seem to have bigger egos, but also take pride in being “the man” in the traditional sense.

  • Plain Jane

    “I think the best proof that there is a different perception of American women is that we don’t have the same amount of mail order husbands that we have of mail order brides. We know that were there is a market there is money to me make.”
    —–
    Its been discussed to its death on the “manosphere” blogs about how American women can get American boyfriends easier than American men can get American girlfriends.
    Those American men who opt for foreign brides were unable to secure one from the American sexual market place.
    That’s ok.  I hold NOTHING against that because I myself recommended it.
    Beware of the gold diggers though – Russians and Asians are world reknowned for it. 
    Can’t blame them either if they come from the socio-economic lower class of their countries, which is usually the class American men get their email order brides from.

  • PJL

    Susan,
     
    “Really? How come? FWIW, I would agree that my views on sex and relationships are fairly conservative, though I am no supporter of abstinence. However, I’d like to note that my views are not based on politics or any idea of what is moral – I try to stick strictly to what works. The article at The Economist is interesting because it measures precisely that.”
     
    Right. I was focusing on the end result. It seems to be that you differ with a lot of social conservatives on the “…because, X” part of the argument. But the conclusions are relatively the same. I would prepare yourself however for a conservative co-opting of your argument in about 10 years or so, when social conservatives realize that arguments based on God or morality won’t get them far, which is quite aside from how good these arguments may be. It is a leap from
    X is bad because it’s impracticable and contrary to your goals
    To
    X is immoral.
     
    But it is a short leap.
     
    All you have to do is give an account of how goals, happiness, and morality are related, which shouldn’t be terribly difficult to do, considering that these were the dominant ethical assumptions from around 300 BC to 1800 AD.
     
    As for science business the quote, that was bad writing on my part. We agree. I meant that science, which normally challenges certain “conservative” positions (evolution, etc), now seems to have turned sides.
     
    The downside of the data, as the the Economist pointed out, is that it’s difficult to tell what role sex had in the equation. It could very well be that those who wait do so for moral and religious reasons that they apparently take seriously enough to make divorce, cheating, etc etc out of the question.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PJL

      It could very well be that those who wait do so for moral and religious reasons that they apparently take seriously enough to make divorce, cheating, etc etc out of the question.

      Yes, I’ve made this same point about the data that shows the percentage of women who cheat on their husbands goes up depending on their number of past sexual partners. I don’t doubt it’s true, but the causation/correlation is not entirely clear.

  • Plain Jane

    “If American women knew the jokes told by foreign men in bars around the world they would be horrified”
    —-
    NOT ME!  I don’t patronize bars and I don’t patronize men who patronize them. 
    That’s another thing that’s so wonderful about some “traditional cultures” – bars are much fewer, confined to certain “areas” and the people who patronize them considered “low class”.

    Much of mainstream American culture is simply low-class, underclass even.
    Neither here nor abroad do I engage in low or underclass behaviours.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s another thing that’s so wonderful about some “traditional cultures” – bars are much fewer, confined to certain “areas” and the people who patronize them considered “low class”.

      Oh, I don’t know. A pub is a wonderful place on a cold night, and there’s nothing like a margarita on the patio of a cantina in the summer. I recently ordered a delicious “grapefruitini” at a local bistro, it was yummy. Alcohol is a social lubricant – hookup culture couldn’t exist without it. But I think a little is a very good thing. For me, a glass of wine takes the edge off. I could never be a teetotaler.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Its been discussed to its death on the “manosphere” blogs about how American women can get American boyfriends easier than American men can get American girlfriends.
    Those American men who opt for foreign brides were unable to secure one from the American sexual market place.
     
    Boyfriends? Yes. Husbands? Well that is another story and the reason this blog exist on the first place.

  • Abbot

    “Screw and the city was aimed at women.So ???”
    .
    You did write that it sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills. On that list of downhills is something that women are told [lied to] is not even a consideration – that most men would not consider those four women for a life partner and its not because of their shopping habits. 

  • Florence

    @ PJ
    “Beware of the gold diggers though – Russians and Asians are world reknowned for it. “
    .
    I wouldn’t say that those women are necessarily “gold-diggers” in the sense of targeting rich old men specifically for their money. These women are genuinely looking for a better quality of future life for themselves and their offspring (at least from my own observations) and they are willing to sacrifice their previous life, leaving behind friends and family and move to the US to be with their husbands. In addition, they have to learn a new language and adapt to a new culture. That’s quite the commitment!

  • Abbot

    “Those American men who opt for foreign brides were unable to secure one from the American sexual market place.”
    .
    Some. Most merely chose to make a flight to quality and a higher probability of marital success given the high divorce rate and biased divorce industry.

  • Plain Jane

    @DF, “Plain Jane, navigating culture is not something you neccessarily get to pick and choose like a hotel buffet.”
    —-
    I have to.  If I would’ve swallowed the entire Kool Aid of every culture I’ve come in contact with – I’d be in a nut house right, or jail.

  • Abbot

    “Those American men who opt for foreign brides were unable to secure one from the American sexual market place.” 

    Why would any sane man, domestic or foreign, interested in a successful marriage fish from the American SMP for a bride? Well, if they do then they deserve what they get. Suuuuuckers!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why would any sane man, domestic or foreign, interested in a successful marriage fish from the American SMP for a bride? Well, if they do then they deserve what they get. Suuuuuckers!

      OK, Abbot, enough. I’ve given you free rein with these comments, but please understand that all but about 5 of my readers are from the American SMP, and the majority are women. Your comments on this subject would be more appreciated at one of the blogs dissing American women. Apparently, they’re springing up everywhere.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You did write that it sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills. On that list of downhills is something that women are told [lied to] is not even a consideration – that most men would not consider those four women for a life partner and its not because of their shopping habits.
     
    Oh true in reality few of them will find husbands (let alone rich ones) but on the movie all of them get married and get their happily ever after.
     
    I wouldn’t say that those women are necessarily “gold-diggers” in the sense of targeting rich old men specifically for their money. These women are genuinely looking for a better quality of future life for them and their offspring (at least from my own observations) and they are willing to sacrifice their previous life leaving behind friends and family to move to the US to be with their husbands, as well as learn a new language and adapt to a new culture. That’s quite the commitment!
     
    Yeah. I already explained that a man that spent money on you in many of our cultures shows a good sign of commitment and the men here are saying it as well that they don’t spent money on a woman that is not worth it. Also if you are going to move to another country where you will need to start all over again, learn a new language selecting a dirt poor partner makes no sense. That being said IME I would say that at least 15% of those women are indeed just doing it for money and will trade the men for a richer partner, cheat on their husbands with a richer partner again or someone from their own culture or ask for a divorce as soon as they become citizens. Its not the majority and I believe the odds of this happening are lower than getting a divorce that will leave the man on the street. So is still a better bet with women. With men seeking an American (or European) wife the few that you find I would say that at least 90% if them are just in it for the visa.Total different goals there.

  • Plain Jane

    Any American who wants to spend the rest of their life with a well-educated, cultured, refined and just plain NICE person who has “family values”, few to no bad habits, an absence of “commitment-phobia” and by extension a firm commitment to spouse and extended family like parents, grand-parents, aunts + uncles, who is not shallow but values characteristics other than “hotness” – would do well to globe-trot and possibly ex-pat.
    At the very least troll the foreign clubs on your campus!
    American men will have to bring the $$$ to these foreign relationships however because foreign parents who are strict are less likely to give their blessings for their daughter to marry a foreigner unless he brings cash and class to the table.
    American women don’t have that burden when phishing for a foreign husband.
    Ladies, one reallly good thing about men from a certain part of the world is that they transition from boys to men in a smoother manner than American boys. 
    They take on family responsibilities earlier and often have to financially support more than just themselves from a young age.
    They do things like get a good education and then do all they can to help their younger siblings get the same.
    They don’t require “boys nights out” or strip clubs or endless, brainless hours spent at a bar (that’s low class in their culture, remember?) huffing and grunting over grown men kicking a damned ball!

    THEY ARE VERY HOME AND FAMIY ORIENTED AND NOT AFRAID OF SHOWING THEIR EMOTIONS.

    I can’t recommend them enough.

  • Florence

    @ PJ
    Good points there about forein men, but keep in mind that not ALL forein men are culturally compatible with American women. In addition, a forein man is much more difficult to get to leave his home country and move to another country (in our case, the US). Men don’t want to leave their home countries, where they have jobs, status, families, friends, etc in order to go to a country like the US, where they’d have to start from 0. It is often the woman who has to make the sacrifice. I have an American female friend who basically dropped out of med school to move to Italy because she married an Italian lawyer. He wouldn’t be allowed to practice his profession in the US, under the current laws.

  • Abbot

    “They don’t require “boys nights out” or strip clubs or endless, brainless hours spent at a bar (that’s low class in their culture, remember?) huffing and grunting over grown men kicking a damned ball!

    THEY ARE VERY HOME AND FAMIY ORIENTED AND NOT AFRAID OF SHOWING THEIR EMOTIONS.
    I can’t recommend them enough.”
    .
    Yes, and the foreign women:
    .

    They don’t require “expressing their sexuality” or experimentation, brainless hours spent at bars (that’s low class in their culture, remember?) flirting and rubbing against grown men!
    THEY ARE VERY HOME AND FAMIY ORIENTED AND NOT AFRAID OF A MAN WHO HAS THE FINAL WORD IN THE HOUSEHOLD.
    I can’t recommend them enough. Amen

  • Plain Jane

    @ Florence,

    “PJ,Good points there about forein men, but keep in mind that not ALL forein men are culturally compatible with American women. In addition, a forein man is much more difficult to get to leave his home country and move to another country (in our case, the US). Men don’t want to leave their home countries, where they have jobs, status, families, friends, etc in order to go to a country like the US, where they’d have to start from 0. It is often the woman who has to make the sacrifice. I have an American female friend who basically dropped out of med school to move to Italy because she married an Italian lawyer. He wouldn’t be allowed to practice his profession in the US, under the current laws.”
    ———–

    1.Flo, there are plenty of South Asian doctors, engineers and I-bankers in the United States and they are very open to dating and marrying American women.
    2.And there are many American women open to living in foreign countries, especially ones where the average urban middle class family has a cook, chafeur, maid and nanny!

  • DF

    In the EU, hahahahah, yes the synthetic EU. Are you refering to central western eastern europe.
     
    Jane, I think your missing my point inregards to culture. It’s about getting their jokes, understanding why they cry so, empathising though not neccessarily agreeing.
    Btw, Europe has its lower class as well. The main difference between American and European culture is matter of quantity over quality. I’m not saying one is better than the other, but rather different outlooks need to be used in different situations. For instance, in commerce, which americans excell at and europeans are too damn lazy for, a quantitative view of life is superior.
    I do believe though, when it comes to love and human interaction, that a qualitative understanding is neccessary. This is why I have reservations with Mrs. Walshs over reliance on the use of economics for you human dynamics.
    Here is an amazing “Qualitative” discourse by Carl Jung on american society:
    http://glpiggy.net/2009/07/24/carl-jungs-observations-of-the-american-husband/
    “I noticed that whenever the American husband spoke to his wife there was always a little melancholy note in his voice, as though it were not quite free: as though he were a boy talking to an older woman.

    “The women are the mother of their husbands as well as of their children, yet at the same time there is in them the old, old primitive desire to be possessed, to yield, to surrender. And there is nothing in this man for her to surrender to except his kindness, his courtesy, his generosity, his chivalry.”

    “You could see that in her eyes he was not at all dangerous, and that she was not afraid of being mastered by him….They are not happy with their American husbands because they are not afraid of them. It is natural, even though archaic, for women to want to be afraid when they love.”

     

  • Lupo

    The main thing wrong with this article is the word “empowering.” That word doesn’t mean anything: it’s  modern therapeutic babble meaning something like, “ego tripping off of,” which isn’t really something I’d describe as a positive emotion. Of course ego tripping off the fact that dudes want to stick their veiny ding dongs in you isn’t good for you. It’s only the use of that dumb word “empowering” which makes people think ego tripping is a good idea.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Jung, “You could see that in her eyes he was not at all dangerous, and that she was not afraid of being mastered by him….They are not happy with their American husbands because they are not afraid of them. It is natural, even though archaic, for women to want to be afraid when they love.”
    —–
    Psychobabble bullcrap.
    *
    @ DF, “Jane, I think your missing my point inregards to culture. It’s about getting their jokes, understanding why they cry so, empathising though not neccessarily agreeing.”
    ——
    You don’t need to worry about me, DF.  I grew up multi-cultural.
    Regarding EU, that’s someone else.
    My focus is South Asia, The “Dark Continent” and other lands with delicious “swarthy” men.
    Yum!
    That would include a bit of Southern Europe as well, but I tend to avoid the North. 
    Just ain’t my thang.

  • Geoff

    Is Plain Jane really Lisa Lampanelli?

  • Matt T

    As a note on the subject of foreign women, I would like to say that, while I’m more interested in foreign women than American women, one should always be cautious about foreign women. If you use money to attract women, you just end up with women interested in money, which, in a volatile economy, may not be the best way to do things. American women are used to dealing with men with money, so they look for other markers of status.

  • DF

    Jung did have some loony ideas, but the correllation here with game is most remarkable.
    Multi-cultural – a learned girl!, so which ethnic take-away resturants have you been to.
    Asians are more conservative than they look

  • Plain Jane

    “Multi-cultural – a learned girl!, so which ethnic take-away resturants have you been to.
    Asians are more conservative than they look”
    *
    You don’t know that I’m not Asian-American myself.  You can cease with the condescending attitude.  It’s catty.
    DROP IT.

  • Plain Jane

    @Matt T, “As a note on the subject of foreign women, I would like to say that, while I’m more interested in foreign women than American women, one should always be cautious about foreign women. If you use money to attract women, you just end up with women interested in money, which, in a volatile economy, may not be the best way to do things. American women are used to dealing with men with money, so they look for other markers of status.”
    —–
    YES.  American women are more tolerable of bohemian type guys who want to “follow their bliss”.  Asian women for the most part – hells to the no! 
    Asian women seeing you through a bout of un-employment?  Ha.  Only if you spend the ENTIRE period, day in, day out, looking for a BETTER job.  No rest and relaxation for you buddy.
    And be expected to allow her family members, even distant relatives to “crash” at your house.  Crashing here means anywhere between a week and 5 years!
    And you will mostly be getting Asian women from the lower socio-economic ranks because the upper classes marry “out” at a lower rate, for cultural and other reasons.

  • Sox

    You don’t know that I’m not Asian-American myself.  You can cease with the condescending attitude.  It’s catty.
    DROP IT.

    .
    Honestly you’re coming off just as condescending.

  • DF

    All in jest Jane!
    Empowering is a marxist construct. Like an empty box with a label, you can place anything inside it you wish, regardless of the label being the same. This is the same fustrating dynamic that mRs. Walsh is having over the defintion and directive of Feminism. Its’s all a shell game to control semantics

  • SayWhaat

    @ Plain Jane:
    I find it hilarious that you’re promoting South Asian men as the hallmark of masculinity and attractiveness. I’m South Asian myself, and I have loads of problems with South Asian men. Sure, most of them are doctors or engineers or I-bankers. Why do you think that is? It’s because behind their backs is a fire-breathing Indian dragon-woman who is playing a political status “My Child is the Best” game with the other mothers in the community. I find it hard to find a South Asian man attractive because I immediately wonder, is he studying to be a doctor because he actually has a passionate desire to be in the profession? Or is it because he’s just fulfilling his parents’ expectations and has absolutely no desire to push himself harder than he has to, once he’s made it?
    .
    I also find South Asian men (especially the FOBs) to sometimes be more immature than American men, believe it or not. You can see this in 99% of the Bollywood movies being produced THIS YEAR, forget previous decades.

  • Geoff

    Lisa Lampanelli isn’t Asian.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Sox, “Honestly you’re coming off just as condescending.”

    This coming from the person who said, “You should hear what Russian men say about American women.”

  • SayWhaat

    YES.  American women are more tolerable of bohemian type guys who want to “follow their bliss”.  Asian women for the most part – hells to the no!
    Haha, and what’s wrong with that? I don’t mind a bohemian type guy (dating one right now, actually) as long as his “bliss” has REAL-TIME RESULTS. Just as I’m critical of a guy who is following a lucrative profession simply for the money, I’m not wasting my valuable youth on a guy who wants to follow an artistic fantasy with no real promise of an ROI.
    .
    Asian women seeing you through a bout of un-employment?  Ha.  Only if you spend the ENTIRE period, day in, day out, looking for a BETTER job.  No rest and relaxation for you buddy.
    Damn straight. No one should be sitting on their ass if they’re unemployed. If you’re unemployed, you should be actively working to rectify the situation. And same goes for whoever it is that you’re dating.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m not wasting my valuable youth on a guy who wants to follow an artistic fantasy with no real promise of an ROI.

      Once again, SayWhaat beats out 98% of women who will fall all over themselves for the punk pop guitarist in a mediocre band!

  • SayWhaat

    One last thing, Plain Jane:
    1.Flo, there are plenty of South Asian doctors, engineers and I-bankers in the United States and they are very open to dating and marrying American women.
    You can be sure that their families will NOT welcome you with open arms. You have a long, long, uphill battle war in front of you if marrying a South Asian man is your strategy.

  • Sox

    <blockquote>This coming from the person who said, “You should hear what Russian men say about American women.”</blockquote>
    What’s your point? It was an observation.

  • DF

    I think we need to get back onto the empowering concept before the comments derail.
    Mrs. Walsh had ever occured, that the reason feminists use the world empowering a tremendous amount is precisely for the reason I stated above. Let me put it this way, it allows young women to fill in the blank with whatever alef-actualistion they want. From my reading of feminsit literature, every women has her own indiviual idea of what empower is, almost no two are the same

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DF
      I think the word “empower” sounds good – like the Little Engine That Could saying “I think I can, I think I can!” But the point I was making in the post is that sex should ideally be an expression of love, or sincere caring, not something that makes one feel powerful. It should be a gift, and should entail the receipt of that generosity from the other person. Controlling someone else, or boosting one’s self-esteem by making a man sexually ecstatic, is not a worthwhile goal, it seems to me. As Regnerus said, it’s not so hard to do. I don’t really understand why women take it as such a compliment when a man is willing to have sex with them.

  • Plain Jane

    @SayWhaat, I understand where you’re coming from.  You’re coming from the point of view of a South Asian woman who grew up saturated with South Asian guys – the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I know that many of them can be “mama’s boys”.  But many of them are eager to shed that and a non-South Asian woman can be a catalyst for that.  Some South Asian men express a distaste for South Asian woman because their parents are often too strict and these are men who are “growing into their own” while living alone in the States.
    I’ve had many experiences with South Asian men – some good, some bad. 
    When they are tall, goodlooking and charming (which some DEFINETLY ARE), they are of course, easier to work with.  hee hee.

  • DF

    I’ll take the concept further. Why don’t feminists just say do whatever you want. Becuase that is the absences of ehtics. They atleast require facade of ethics, otherwise its just another nietzschean will to power.

  • SayWhaat

    Plain Jane:
    But many of them are eager to shed that and a non-South Asian woman can be a catalyst for that.
    Exactly. But once they’ve changed, just don’t expect them to continue carrying on with a non-South Asian woman. Cultural pulls will always pull harder.
    And that’s all I’m saying on interracial dating, because this is veering waaayy off-topic.

  • DF

    Furthermore(there is internal commentary by welmer):
    http://www.welmer.org/2009/08/13/carl-jung-founding-father-of-game/
     

    I study the individual to understand the race, and the race to understand the individual. I ask myself, What influence has the building of America had upon the American man and the American woman of today? I find that it is a good subject for the student of pschoanalysis.
    There is only so much vital energy in any human being. We call that in our work the Libido. And I would say that the Libido of the American man is focused almost entirely upon his business, so that as a husband he is glad to have no responsibilities. He gives the complete direction of his family life over to his wife. This is what you call giving independence to the American woman. It is what I call the laziness of the American man. That is why he is so kind and polite in his home, and why he can fight so hard in his business. His real life is where his fight is. The lazy part of his life is where his family is.
     
    I made many observations on shipboard. I noticed that whenever the American husband spoke to his wife there was always a little melancholy note in his voice, as though he were not quite free: as though he were a boy talking to an older woman. he was always very polite and very kind, and paid her every respect. You could see that in her eyes he was not at all dangerous, and that she was not afraid of being mastered by him. But when anyone told him there was betting going on he would leave her, and his face became eager and full of desire, and his eyes would get very bright and his voice would get strong, and hard, and brutal.
     

    American Marriages Tragic
    You believe, for instance, that American marriages are the happiest in the world. I say that they are the most tragic. I know this not only from my study of the people as a whole, but from my study of individuals who come to me. I find that the men and women are giving their vital energy to everything but the relation between themselves. In that relation all is confusion. The women are the mothers of their husbands as well as of their children, yet at the same time there is in them the old, old primitive desire to be possessed, to yield, to surrender. And there is nothing in the man for her to surrender to except his kindness, his courtesy, his generosity, his chivalry. His competitor, his rival in business must yield, but she need not.
    There is no country in the world where women have to work so hard to attract men’s attention. There is in your Metropolitan Museum a bas-relief which shows the girls of Crete in one of their religious dances about their god in the form of a bull. These girls of 2,000 BC wear their hair in chignons; they have puffed sleeves; their corseted waists are very slender; they are dressed to show every line of their figures just as your women are dressing today.
    At that time the reasons which made it necessary to attract men to themselves in this way had to do with the morals of their country. The women were desperate just as they are today, without knowing it. In Athens four or five hundred years before Christ there was even an epidemic of suicide among young girls, which was only brought to an end by the decision of the Areopagus that the next girl who did away with herself would be exhibited nude upon the streets of Athens. There were no more suicides. The judges of Athens understood sex psychology.
    On Fifth Avenue I am constantly reminded of that bas-relief. All the women, by their dress, by the eagerness of their faces, by their walk, are trying to attract the tired men of their country. What they will do when they fail I can’t tell. It may be that then they will face themselves instead of running away from themselves, as they do now. Usually, men are more honest with themselves than women. But in this country your women have more leisure than men. Ideas run easily among them, are discussed in clubs, and so here it may be that they will be the first ones to ask if you are a happy country or unhappy. [Here Jung is clearly warning Americans that pent up sexual frustration will cause American women to effect potentially disastrous changes through activism]
    It may be that you are going to produce a race which are human beings first, and men and women secondarily. It may be that you are going to create the real independent woman who knows she is independent, who feels the responsibility of her independence and, in time, will come to see that she must give up spontaneously those things which up to now she only allows to be taken from her when she pretends to be passive. Today the American woman is still confused. She wants independence, she wants to be free to do everything, to think everything, to say everything, to have all the opportunities which men have, and, at the same time, she wants to be mastered by man and to be possessed in the archaic way of Europe. [Today, since much of Europe has gone down the same beta American spiral, we find women turning to romance novels in which they are spirited away by sheikhs to some desert oasis]
    You think your young girls marry European husbands because they are ambitious for titles. I say it is because, after all, they are not different from the European girls; they like the way European men make love, and they like to feel we are a little dangerous. They are not happy with their American husbands because they are not afraid of them. It is natural, even though it is archaic, for women to want to be afraid when they love [here’s where Roissy’s “shady character game” comes into play]. If they don’t want to be afraid then perhaps they are becoming truly independent, and you may be producing the real ‘new woman.’ But up to this time your American man isn’t ready for real independence in woman. He only wants to be the obedient son of his mother-wife. There is a great obligation laid upon the American people – that it shall face itself – that it shall admit its moment of tragedy in the present — admit that it has a great future only if it has courage to face itself.

     

  • Plain Jane

    @SayWhaat, the percentage of out-marrying South Asian men in the United States is steadily rising.  South Asian women are lagging behind in that department, but sometimes they marry out as well, but not at the rates South Asian men are, at this point in time anyway.
    That being said, yes there are challenges.  I’ve dealt with them.

  • Plain Jane

    @ DF, “empowering” is a vague word that can mean whatever you want it too.  What’s empowering for you may not be empowering for me, especially if I grew up in a culture where that activity was the norm. 
    Generally when someone breaks away from a social, religious or cultural conditioning that they have felt burdened by, that break in itself will feel “empowering”.

  • Snowdrop111

    Holy Moley is the photo accompanying this post even legal?  Sorry!  I am not sure I would want that photo on my cache or whatever…  maybe I’m being too alarmist …   sorry…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Snowdrop
      Yikes, I didn’t even think of that. Well, it’s certainly not porn. Whatever, I’m so happy to see you here, even if it is just to issue a warning! I hope all is well with you.

  • Plain Jane

    “Once again, SayWhaat beats out 98% of women who will fall all over themselves for the punk pop guitarist in a mediocre band!”
    Susan, you really think 98% of women will fall for a punk guitarist in mediocre band?

    Sure, there’s a demographic for that – in Junior and High School – but come on!

  • Snowdrop111

    Sorry, normally at work my browser won’t keep me logged in, and I haven’t been able to read nearly all the comments lately.

    I do sometimes sneak a peek at work…but I sure wouldn’t want that photo showing…but that’s not the real deal with a photo like that…I know some may say “it’s only normal, innocent  play that lots of kids do” “It’s the viewer who has a dirty mind”  and in some ways I agree BUT….there is a big difference in say, the Coppertone ads when I was little (they were drawn)  and a photo…the problem with photos is “Who posed for it” and “who was behind the camera and did they get the kids to pose for the photo” 

    I don’t have a problem if something like that is depicted in a cartoon, painting, drawing (I think the Coppertone ads when I was little was a drawing)  or toddlers in a backyard pool …  but the problem with a photo like this is “who is that in the photo and who got them to pose” and if an adult caught them unsuspecting in an innocent moment, are they identifiable…

    Sorry, I know many on this blog do not like “liberal nannying” so I know what to expect but I feel the real problem with a photo like that is the authorities would want to know its provenance.  Did the photographer encourage the situation…  OK bring it on.

  • SayWhaat

    I’m not wasting my valuable youth on a guy who wants to follow an artistic fantasy with no real promise of an ROI.

    Once again, SayWhaat beats out 98% of women who will fall all over themselves for the punk pop guitarist in a mediocre band!
     
    Erm…ahh…well…actually. The bohemian/hipster guy that I mentioned actually is an indie-pop musician in a band….but the thing is that he’s 28 and has already established himself in his field. His band had a fairly successful run and a loyal following, they left their major label to start their own independent record label, he’s working on a solo album, and he’s a freelancing photographer in the meantime. He’s doing well financially, and has ambition by the buckets. He reads a lot, he seems intelligent, and he’s a sweet and humble guy, to boot! I’m still feeling him out but so far…seems to be going well. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Erm…ahh…well…actually. The bohemian/hipster guy that I mentioned actually is an indie-pop musician in a band…

      Whoops! Sorry, didn’t mean to dismiss all musicians there. I just happen to know a very lazy one who does surprisingly well with women.

  • Plain Jane

    SayWhaat, I have to ask you, since you are adamant that South Asian men will only want to date and have fun with non-South Asian women but their cultural pulls would drag them like a magnet to a South Asian woman when it comes time to marry — what about you???
    You are also South Asian.  Do plan on marrying a South Asian man, despite the fact that you date NON South Asian men?

  • Plain Jane

    Someone questioned my reasoning around Camille Paglia, asking “how can she hate women when she, as a lesbian or bisexual, has intimiate relationships with them?
    Easy.
    A woman who is a self-hater, hates being a woman and wishes she were born a man, can have bi or lesbian relationships with women because she relates to the woman as a misogynistic male lover would.
    And that is EXACTLY what I thought when I read some of Paglia’s works several years ago as a very young girl. 
    Now, she may have changed, I don’t know.
    I was so turned off by her attitude towards women and her gall at trying to advise HETEROSEXUAL women in how to “return to conventional womanhood” that I haven’t read her since. 
    How about SHE return to “conventional womanhood” and marry a MAN!
    Anyway….
    —–
    Regarding EMAIL ORDER BRIDES.  Susan mentioned upwards that the men who opt for taking foreign brides are by and large the men who can’t compete in the American Sexual Market.
    On the contrary with American women that I know married to foreigners, they are the kind of women that men are describing here that they prefer;
    socially conservative
    family values
    smart
    industrious
    not sluts
    not alpha chasers
    *
    Now, these women are not 10s.  I would say they are moderately cute, pleasant looking women.  But I can assure these are not the alpha cock carousel riding skank type women that are marrying foreign men, especially those men that come from conservative cultures. 
    Indeed, as SayWhaat explains, if they are South Asian men, their families are going to put these women through a series of “shit tests” before they allow their sons to marry them.  So these are women of a certain standard.
    I suppose they would be considered “high value” on the sexual market place IF that sexual market place means “marraigable market place”. 
    If the market place is for sex only, and these women are valued only for their “hotness”… that’s another story.  They are not the Hot Babe 10s on campus.  They are the studious, serious and nice girls.

  • AnonymousF

    @Plain Jane
    “SayWhaat, I have to ask you, since you are adamant that South Asian men will only want to date and have fun with non-South Asian women but their cultural pulls would drag them like a magnet to a South Asian woman when it comes time to marry — what about you???”

    SayWhaat’s point applies to many ethnic and/or religious minorities with strong cultural norms, not just South Asians. I’ve seen the same thing in the Jewish community, and dated non-Jewish guys myself knowing I’d never commit to them in a meaningful way. A lot of minority group members *are* willing to marry out, but many have no intention of doing so and many more think they’re willing but will buckle under pressure when push comes to shove. The problem is that it is very hard to tell in advance who you’re dealing with. I’ve seen people waste years being led on in such relationships. All that being said, if you meet the parents and extended family early on and they give enthusiastic approval, you’re probably OK on the commitment issue.

  • Brendan

    Bla bla from Plain Jane when in fact Camille understands 1000% more than she does about sexuality between men and women, women and women and so on.
    .
    You’re no Camille.

  • Plain Jane

    @AnonymousF, “. I’ve seen the same thing in the Jewish community, and dated non-Jewish guys myself knowing I’d never commit to them in a meaningful way.”

    —–
    Really?  And what if one of these guys fell in love with you? 
    Do you really think its fair to date people you carry a prejudice against when it comes to serious commitment?
    Are human beings that expendable?

  • AnonymousF

    @PJ

    I didn’t out and out lie to anyone or make any promises. Nor did I carry anything on for more than a few months. But I misled by omission. One guy in particular I truly regret, he deserved better. That was years ago and I would behave differently today. But the point remains that my behavior was not an isolated occurrence. I’ve seen it done by members of other groups as well, including East Asian and South Asian. I’m putting the issue out there to whom it may concern. Doesn’t mean I approve of the behavior.

  • Plain Jane

    @AnonF, I know it does happen.  It happened to me.  However not all of them are like that.  But one experience led to me switching from South Asian to African American men.
    That being said, I know several North American women engaged and/or married to South Asian men. 
    I also dated a Hasidim from Brooklyn, believe it or not.  Long story.  He had to sneak away to see me.  I knew the relationship was doomed but DAMN – was he adorable!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Plain Jane

      But one experience led to me switching from South Asian to African American men.
      That being said, I know several North American women engaged and/or married to South Asian men.
      I also dated a Hasidim from Brooklyn, believe it or not. Long story. He had to sneak away to see me. I knew the relationship was doomed but DAMN – was he adorable!

      Now you’re back to being Polyamorous Desi. This is not what HUS is for or about. Consider this a warning.

  • terre

    Plain Jane is basically what happens when you bring women from the subcontinent to the First World (I would know, my first girlfriend was a second-gen, and I’d sooner go through the trenches of Verdun than ever see her face again).

  • Plain Jane

    I’m not subcontinental, terre.
    But tell me about your first gf.  I’m curious………
    According to the men here, women from Asia are supposed to be “gems” and so much “better” than us uncouth American women.  So please tell us about this Asian gf of your’s who’s experience caused you to sooner go through the trenches of Verdun than ever see her face again.

  • AnonymousF

    @PJ

    Yes, of course, many crosscultural marriages happen (including friends of mine), and I acknowledged that in my original remark on the matter. The conversion option, when available, makes religion less of an obstacle. But it’s important to be aware of the additional risk in such a situation and verify more thoroughly than usual that you’re being taken seriously. College students tend to be naive and brush it aside.

    PS “Hasidim” is plural. One guy is a Hasid.

  • Plain Jane

    Hindus and Buddhists don’t expect their spouse to convert.
    :)
    That’s generally an Abrahamic Trio thing.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Plain Jane:
    You are also South Asian.  Do plan on marrying a South Asian man, despite the fact that you date NON South Asian men?
    No. I’m open to the possibility of marrying outside my race. Just to be clear, I have no problems with you or anyone else who is non-Indian and wants to date South Asian men. But you should be aware of the problems involved and that there is a strong possibility that he will not commit to you in the way that you would like, for cultural reasons. Listen to what AnonymousF says, it’s true. As for my particular case, I do face cultural pressures all the time (more so because I’m a woman) to marry within my race. And I expect a shitload of drama if I do decide to marry a non-Indian. But I’m not going to close myself off to the opportunity of meeting a great guy, just because he doesn’t belong to the same race.
    .
    Hindus and Buddhists don’t expect their spouse to convert.
    You can’t “convert” to Hinduism. You can adopt it, but mostly you’re born into it. It’s more of a philosophy and lifestyle than a religion.

  • Plain Jane

    “Just to be clear, I have no problems with you or anyone else who is non-Indian and wants to date South Asian men.”

    Thats good.  You cannot believe the “side eye” I get from African American women when out with an African American guy, especially if he’s a fine brotha.
    If he’s fine, we both get more than just an eyeing, a few women have actually passed comments – in public!

  • terre

    I’m not subcontinental, terre.But tell me about your first gf.  I’m curious………According to the men here, women from Asia are supposed to be “gems” and so much “better” than us uncouth American women.  So please tell us about this Asian gf of your’s who’s experience caused you to sooner go through the trenches of Verdun than ever see her face again.
    .
    She was South Asian (second gen, like I said in the first place).

  • Lupo

    @Geoff: <i>“what’s wrong with us that a guy says no thanks to the 200M American women?”</i>
     
    Most of them are so wrapped up in their own entitlement princess world, they’re simply unaware of it. Fun thing to try if you’re still out in the dating trenches: tell an American woman you don’t find hot that you can’t date American women any more, and that you might as well be gay to them. No need to explain beyond that: almost all of them will give you a demonstration of why no sane man would date an American women. FWIIW, try the same thing on a Russian or Korean you like, for the exact opposite reaction.

  • terre

    There are a lot of good things about American women; I think Roosh has written about this. They’re far more open to new experiences than Europeans are (despite what American women think, Europe is not a “liberated” paradise). You can basically sleep with an American if you can make her laugh, which has its charms. But after dating them my whole life I do have to wonder how people take them seriously.

  • Florence

    @PJ, SayWhaat, others,
    I’d say, feel free to date whoever rocks your boat. Don’t be judgmental about different nationals, but be cautious of the cultural differences and of the fact that if those people haven’t lived long enough in the US to have established a living, status, job, friends, and adopted some part of the American culture, it is very unlikely that they will stick around for you or invite you along with them to a different country. What is most likely for them IS to have their FUN with you and go back to their countries of origin, marry their virgin wives according to their cultural/religious standards. A lot of foreign men (not ALL) do perceive American women as “easy” targets. These men aren’t used to women sleeping around like the American women do. Don’t become an “easy” catch for them. In addition, in some countries American women have created a bad reputation for themselves as being seen extremely intoxicated to the point of not being able to walk straight, requiring help from the locals. Sadly, the locals probably assume that most if not all American women are like that. Just a word of caution.
    .
    To the men:
    .
    Don’t use money to attract foreign women, because you will likely end up with a woman who is only after money, even in the US. Don’t make assumptions about ALL foreign women b4 you get to know them. If you genuinely like a foreign woman, do invite her on a date, be polite and respectful of her culture, maybe pay for her coffee, and judge her liked you’d judge any other woman.

  • Plain Jane

    @Florence, “PAY for her coffee”
    —-

    LOL!  You’re talking to a bunch of guys for whom paying for anything for a woman is anathema.

    What you say about foreign men from conservative and religious cultures may hold true to some extent, but not with Northern European men.  My problem is that while I like the attitudes of Northern European men, I like my chocolate milk or dark, not white, so I find myself often with men from conservative and religious cultures. 
    However, since I’m fairly socially conservative, there’s a lot I appreciate about those men too, especially their family values.  Indeed, when I have dated those men, we shared a lot of common values.
    I’ve had issues with a few of them but I’ve also gotten marriage proposals from a few as well.  I was 2 young at the time to take them up on it.
    Now, riding the alpha male cock carousel has become old and boring to me, I mean, you’ve seen one pony, you’ve seen ‘em all……………. so I’m back in the market to marry a nice guy conservative beta engineer Asian, afterwhich I plan to divorce him by our 3rd year anniversary and take him to the cleaners, just before I announce to him that the baby isn’t his but it doesn’t matter anyway because his name is on the birth certificate as “father” so he’ll be paying child support for the next 15-18 years. 
    ;)

    Snark. Snark.

  • Florence

    @ Terre
    “There are a lot of good things about American women; I think Roosh has written about this. They’re far more open to new experiences than Europeans are (despite what American women think, Europe is not a “liberated” paradise). You can basically sleep with an American if you can make her laugh, which has its charms. But after dating them my whole life I do have to wonder how people take them seriously.”
    .
    First of all, who the h*ck is Roosh and why is every single American guy so obsessed with this particular person and what he writes? Just because some European woman turned him down (and rightfully so) for sex, he automatically assumed that European women aren’t open to “new experiences”?
    Second, have you ever been in places like Amsterdam, Berlin or Paris? If by “new experiences” you are referring to sexual experiences, I can give you quite a lot of examples of things first ever invented in Europe. Anyway, that is not the point. What I’ve observed in Europe is that people end up in LTRs from a very early age and it is quite common to date for 5, 6,7 years and get married. People are very open-minded to premarital sex, but the conventional FWB is largely an American invention. It is my observation that in Europe people actually “date” in the traditional sense of the word “dating” as in the man would invite the woman out and wait for some time before they have sex for a first time. Hook-up is very common among the young culture and does happen a lot at parties. Binge drinking IS probably more common in the EU than it is in the US, because people aren’t forced to drive everywhere all the time. In addition, here people often invite a new partner to meet their parents almost immediately after starting to date, with usually the man inviting the woman first. People have a lot of premarital sex, but it is somehow exercised differently and with more caution than it is in the US.

  • Florence

    @ PJ
    You’re funny! Glad you have realized what your type is, though. Personally, Asian men don’t do it for me…you know “what they say about Asian guys”….but if they rock your boat, by all means go for them!

  • Florence

    @ DF
    “In the EU, hahahahah, yes the synthetic EU. Are you refering to central western eastern europe.
    .
    I mean central and western Europe (Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, France and the UK). Obviously, I will not compare the US culture to other less-developed cultures. The countries that have recently joined the EU are rapidly becoming integrated and inter-cultural dating is very common. As you’ve pointed out there are major differences in culture in comparison to the US. One is not necessarily better than the other, but just different. However, it may be safe to assume that the American culture has diverged from the traditional European culture.New York used to be called “the New Amsterdam” back in the day. So in Europe, one would be back to basics (that have been kept for centuries because they somehow work) at the SMP. The majority of European women don’t have problems getting their men to commit for some reason. Some do, but not the majority.
    .
    I am not trying to advocate any particular approach, just sharing my observations. I can also point out a number of things I like better for the N. American culture compared to the European, with one being that I find the majority of Europeans generally much more judgmental than Americans. I’ve had a good amount of exposure to both. I am also not advocating that one should go date Europeans, if that was your concern. I was merely trying to say to be open-minded to dating people from other cultures. That is all. Date whoever rocks your boat!
     

  • Florence

    @ AnnoynumousF
    “Dating someone from a foreign culture is one thing. Marrying a foreigner and raising children with one is a whole different ball game. Yes, lots of couples make it work, but generally the more dissimilar two people’s backgrounds, the more potential for discord and misunderstanding.”
    .

    Good point. I completely agree and think that a culture has to be similar at least at the basics (religion, societal organization, etc) in order for a relationship to have any chance at working.
    .
    @ Sox
    Also I think expat dating is usually doomed to fail once the original novelty is worn off, unless one of you truly loves the others culture enough to assimilate yourself.
    .
    Good point.
    .
    @ Steph R.
    “Those American men who opt for foreign brides were unable to secure one from the American sexual market place.”
    .
    That sounds quite judgmental. Personally, I know a lot of Americans, Canadians, and Europeans who are attracted to Asian chicks. Eastern European women such as Czech, Polish and Russian are also pretty hot, no question there. If a man is genuinely attracted to a woman, does that mean he failed at his home land? Same goes for women – PJ has a preference for milk and dark chocolates.

  • Abbot

    “A lot of foreign men (not ALL) do perceive American women as “easy” targets.”
    .
    Are you sure you’re not talking about American men?
    .
    “What is most likely for them IS to have their FUN with you and go back to their countries of origin, marry their virgin wives according to their cultural/religious standards.”

    .
    Once again, our foreign brothers have something to teach us
    .
    “These men aren’t used to women sleeping around like the American women do.”
    .
    Well that’s only fair since American men are not used to all the wife material when in their countries. 
    .
    “Sadly, the locals probably assume that most if not all American women are like that.”
    .
    Same goes for locals in New York, Boston, Chicago and for many square blocks adjacent to most universities. 

  • Lavazza

    Finns seem to have the most responsable sex in Northern Europe. Figures for STDs and abortions are much lower than in the other countries and the trend is continuing downward.

  • Abbot

    “Now you’re back to being Polyamorous Desi.”
    .
    A card carrying member of the Jaclyn Friedman cult

  • Florence

    @ Abbot
    “Once again, our foreign brothers have something to teach us”
    .
    Well, American men abroad aren’t exactly “great” either. Just think about all the wealthy American businessmen and their actions in countries such as Thailand. European businessmen also take a significant part in it.

  • Abbot

    “Well, American men abroad aren’t exactly “great” either. Just think about all the wealthy American businessmen and their actions in countries such as Thailand.”
    .
    A red herring. This is about men having their FUN in the US and then marrying a very different type of woman. 

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Florence…”Just think about all the wealthy American businessmen and their actions in countries such as Thailand”
     
    Why do you focus specifically on “businessmen” as opposed to, say, lawyers, politicians, executives of “nonprofit” organizations, etc etc? Do you really think members of these groups are more likely to behave in an ethical manner than are those of us who engage in commerce?

  • Florence

    @ David Foster
    Please, forgive me. I should have said “western tourists”. I was talking about the child prostitution problem there.

  • terre

    Plain Jane, if you qualify as “socially conservative” then the average Democrat is a card-carrying member of the Third Reich.

  • GudEnuf

    Abbot: “A red herring. This is about men having their FUN in the US and then marrying a very different type of woman. ”
     
    Is there any reason to believe this phenomenon is widespread?

  • DF

    Florence, actually American and European culture is different sometimes radically , just not obviously, too explain that properly would require entire disscussion.
    “Europeans are Judgemental” Of course, because their society is far more class based and hierarchical. AS opposed to american egalitarianism. Europeans are sizing you up immediately, it can get tiresome. In Europe its who you know, in america its what you know. Of course many American social trends are becoming popular in the western european countries
    This is why I find Plane Jane to be a tad niave when considering Asia. The men are integrated completely into the family unit, its not about mummies boy, its about his obligations to the family and the community.You are on show 24/7.
    Again, You don’t neccessarily get to pick and choose what cultural aspects you want and many aren’t intially obvious as some posters have remarked. Americans tend to have a hard time grasping this because of your individualism and egalitarian nature.
    That being said there are some Asian men who are fairly liberal minded. You would find them in the major commerical capitals, Singapore, KL, Hongkong, Tiawan.
     

  • DF

    Most American men I have met, who have married foreign women. It was simply a case of a tourist or busines trip that turned into a romantic excursion. The mail-order bride isn’t a large phenomenon
    Most men would atleast considering traveling to these countries before using the internet.
     

  • DF

    Mrs. Walsh, The word Empowering is simply destruction of the english language. Period. For exactly the reason stated it can mean anything to anyone, A word that dosen’t mean something isn’t a word. Have you read Orwell – Newspeak. Feminists use it deliberatly as cover for women to dream up whatever takes their fancy, regardless of the consquences because to be empowered is to have a right. This is why slaying this beast would expose young girls to the real world of consquences. That there are other human beings outside their silopsistic bubble of Will-to-power.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DF

      The word Empowering is simply destruction of the english language. Period. For exactly the reason stated it can mean anything to anyone, A word that dosen’t mean something isn’t a word.

      Agree. It’s just silly.

  • Abbot

    “Is there any reason to believe this phenomenon is widespread?”
    .
    Based on the attitudes and behaviors of women in the US over the past thirty years and the very existence and following of this website, yes. Well documented? No. There is no reason to track this shift in the marriage demographic. The men see no reason to broadcast it and the feminists certainly do no want something so embarrassing known unless its bad news that could lead to regulation to slow it down. In fact, the trafficking label is often pushed based on the claim that foreign women are vulnerable and being taken advantage of. Nice try. The US government refuses to label the pursuit of foreign brides as trafficking despite the feminist lobby and its especially difficult to pin this label when men expatriate.

  • Geoff

    Back to the point of this post by Susan:
    .
    1.  Sex is “empowering” for women if you know, going in, that you will never be desired by most men for marriage (unless you lie, and he doesn’t catch you in the lie).  Then you’re empowered to have all the sex you want, without regret (e.g. Samantha on SATC).
    .
    2.  Denying your base impulses is “empowering” if you wish to retain your virtue and show ALL potential husbands that you’re unlikely to cheat (e.g. …wait, there isn’t one example in mass media today of a girl waiting for marriage.  NO E.G. FOR YOU!)
    .
    For feminists:  first kind of empowerment good, second kind bad.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Denying your base impulses is “empowering”

      I really like this. It is indeed, because it comes from strength of character. It’s the opposite of caving to impulse.

  • Plain Jane

    GudEnuf says:
    January 31, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    Abbot: “A red herring. This is about men having their FUN in the US and then marrying a very different type of woman. ”
     
    Is there any reason to believe this phenomenon is widespread?
    ————————

    ITS NOT.
    The only reason why I know a significant number of American citizens marryied abroad, as opposed to my current neighbors, is because of the way I was raised (3rd culture/alternative) and the filed of work I went into.

  • MNL

    I told my daughter (now in college) when she was back in high school and first noticing the power of her gender: some women find their self-esteem between their ears; some women find their self-esteem between their legs.  Which one are you?  Which way do you think is going to make you the most happy?
    Funny.  But even at that young age, she knew precisely what I meant–that there were choices followed by real consequences.
    Fathers play a huge role, have a huge opportunity in educating young women along this line.  IMO, fathers seem to be able to say it in a way that’s much more potent than their mothers can.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Fathers play a huge role, have a huge opportunity in educating young women along this line. IMO, fathers seem to be able to say it in a way that’s much more potent than their mothers can.

      YES! This is huge. There have been several fathers who have emailed me to thank me for bringing them up to speed so that they can have a conversation with their daughters. Daughters want to hear from their dads. My daughter was a bit awkward at first, but now she will ask her dad to help her interpret male behavior. (And she religiously reads the comments here, haha.)

  • OffTheCuff

    Beautifully said, MNL. I hope can do as well with my daughter as you.

  • Abbot

    This comment is very telling and good reason to not let American men have passports. It just ruins them.
    .

    Anonymous
    October 12, 2010 | 2:57 am

    As an expat in SE Asia, in my opinion western women have lost their minds. Ive been working in SE Asia for twoi years, and when I left North America I was worried about meeting woman….Not only was I wrong, I was way off on the age bracket. As my driver drives me home from work, young ladies try and get my phone number from me. I live like a king, and sure as you know, the werstern momen here have to try and corral a western man, cuz the eastern boyz will not put up with the B.S. (meaning; if you want the career, take it, but dont expect to retain the goddess tag) the eastern gisls get that, they will do what it takes to please their man so they stay happy!
    So sick of the western gals B.S.

  • Florence

    It seems that it is not the feminists, but the movie-making industry that is misusing the the term “empower” . In this movie the term “empower” is used to promote the ability to have sex without any emotional attachment while have a great time, using a powerful figure such as Portman.This is not reality. The term is misused for the purpose of selling.
    From my experience, the word “empower” has always been used by feminists, in relation to empowering women to negotiate safe and consensual sex practices in societies that suppress the needs and desires of women in the name of culture and traditions OR to empower (be able to negotiate) a refusal to have sex when they want to, or to have their sexuality respected by society. An empowered woman has the right to chose when to have sex and with whom. She has the right to refuse sex or negotiate the use of contraception. It is centralized around the idea that “a woman’s body is a woman’s right” and has never been about the WILL-to-power.
    .
    What the movie doesn’t show is the real outcome (strings eventually being attached) of casual sex and that is not empowering, but rather misleading.
    .
    On that note, I think that a woman should be empowered to explore her body in the bedroom with a bf or another person of choice in terms of exploring what she likes best, without being judged as “promiscuous”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think that a woman should BE empowered to explore her body in the bedroom with a bf or another person of choice in terms of exploring what she likes best, without being judged as “promiscuous”.

      She will be observed, and judged, depending on how frequently she changes partners. She will be judged by other women, for the reasons I’ve been writing about, and she will be judged by men, who will question her fitness for monogamous commitment.

      Feminists have to get over “should.” It is not going to happen.

  • ExNewYorker

    From the article Abott linked:
    Most teenage boys want to have sex with supermodels. Later, they acknowledge the market reality that there is a general scarcity of supermodels and a specific scarcity of supermodels who want to have sex with them. They adjust their standards to fit the market in which they live.

    Your average guy has had reality hit him in the face often enough that “settling”, so to speak, has almost been brainwashed into him.  Even the cads have some measure of understanding that life is full of rejection.  So, adjusting to the market is something most guys have some measure of understanding, even if many choose to just settle and not increase their own “value” in the market or just drop out of the market altogether.  Even men with options don’t have all the options they might want, but they deal with it.
    .
    For a lot of women, adjusting to the market seems to be almost too shocking to contemplate.  I mean, again from the article:
    “I think the main problem in Beijing is that most of the men here I wouldn’t touch back home, so why would I here?” — Juanita Hartman, 33, American.
    .
    The poor hamster is working overtime, and in all time zones, it seems.

  • Abbot

    “The numbers do not tell the tale. According to data obtained by the Wall Street Journal, more than half of all expats are between 20 and 39 years old and, of all expats, 23% are women. On its face, dating within the expat world would seem to be a buyer’s market for the women.
    .

    It’s not. To switch metaphors from business to food, expat life is a sexual feast for men and a famine for women.”
    .
    http://nomadlaw.com/2007/02/expat-life-sexual-feast-for-men-famine-for-women/
    .
    Now THAT is empowerment!

  • Abbot

    Yes, this article
    .
    http://nomadlaw.com/2007/02/expat-life-sexual-feast-for-men-famine-for-women/
    .
    really does expose the American woman on many levels. The denial is palpable. And quite satisfying to read. You can hear the air hissing out of the empowerment bubble. Its a double wammy – she prefers to date feminist-conditioned Americans but neither they or the local men are willing. This is entirely her problem. And you would think its a good time to be introspective and learn something, but the American female SMP ego is too thick to penetrate. Pity.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @DF
    The funny thing is that more often than not the word empowering is understood as doing things like a man would. What is feminist about that? The movement should had been called masculinism instead since a lot of the philosophy relies on imitating men (usually the worst part of being a man), men can’t bear kids? So having kids is a curse. Men work outside the house? Housework is oppressive!
    If the movement would had focused on recognizing womanhood and taking pride on it and its contribution to society we will be on an entire different situation. Anyone here has a time machine?

  • Florence

    @SW
    This is about telling your partner what you like or not like and asking them participate in a certain fantasy if they are okay with that. Personally, I’d only do that in a secure monogamous relationship, but some women supposedly do not have the opportunity to be or do not want to be in a LTR monogamous relationship, but would like to enjoy great sex. Should we shame them?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence

      some women supposedly do not have the opportunity to be or do not want to be in a LTR monogamous relationship, but would like to enjoy great sex. Should we shame them?

      Hmmm, I thought you were here for my two articles on the Case for Slut Shaming.

  • pjay
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pjay
      LMAO! This is my favorite bit:

      Whereas early feminists campaigned tirelessly for improved health care and safe, legal access to abortion, often against a backdrop of public indifference or hostility, today’s feminist asserts control over her biological destiny by wearing a baby-doll T-shirt with the word “Hoochie” spelled in glitter.

      “Don’t tell this bitch what to do,” said Kari Eastley, 24, a participant in the Oberlin study and, according to one of her T-shirts, a “Slut Goddess.” “I wear what I want when I want, and no man is going to tell me otherwise. We’re talking Pussy Power, baby.”

      It’s not even satire!

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I think that a woman should BE empowered to explore her body in the bedroom with a bf or another person of choice in terms of exploring what she likes best, without being judged as “promiscuous”.
     
    Do you know that you can do that, without doing it with every single man that crosses your path and is willing? I never understood this idea.
    You can explore your body on your own and finding out what you like so you can show it to your partner, once you have it. You can explore it with the first man that you have sex with and it will be the same because he will need to “listen to your body” as much, having thousands of partners doesn’t make you an expert on the next new one because every person is different and likes different things the key to be a good lover is to try and be willing to learn how a person sexuality works and being willing to do it all the time, because people’s sexuality changes with time as much as with person.
    No to mention that given that this is the first time on history that this concept is used as an excuse for promiscuity and we had billions of people engaging in sex since the dawn of times and the survival of the species depends on us enjoying sex (after all the clitoris only has ONE function) then I think odds are that you are going to find a way to enjoy sex regardless if you bang 1 or 1000 so why bang 1000?
    And really my alpha friends tell me that they don’t see that much difference between the women after a while is mostly the rest that makes them come back or not. And some of my slutty friends also get the a dick is just a dick the rest is what matters attitude so again is another scam.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie

      I think odds are that you are going to find a way to enjoy sex regardless if you bang 1 or 1000 so why bang 1000?

      Good question! I also agree wholeheartedly that a woman can explore her body and what turns her on while alone. An orgasm is an orgasm, and they’re more reliable when self-administered than with some “cocky 7 who owns the room.”

  • Florence

    @ Steph R.

    “Do you know that you can do that, without doing it with every single man that crosses your path and is willing? I never understood this idea.”

    .
    I didn’t say “every single man”. I said in a monogamous relationship.

  • Florence

    “And really my alpha friends tell me that they don’t see that much difference between the women after a while is mostly the rest that makes them come back or not.”
    .
    What women? The random ONS women or their official, monogamous gfs?

  • Abbot

    “but some women supposedly do not have the opportunity to be or do not want to be in a LTR monogamous relationship, but would like to enjoy great sex. Should we shame them?”
    .
    Exactly how would a woman be shamed? Are folks walking up to her and wagging their fingers – shame shame? I have never heard of that. Have you? Are men shaming them? If so, how? This is all very vague, so what are the shaming methods?
    .
    “I think that a woman should BE empowered to explore her body in the bedroom with a bf or another person of choice in terms of exploring what she likes best”
    .
    Who wrote that? Someone actually thought that through and then wrote it. This is from a mature adult woman? 

  • Stephenie Rowling

    What women? The random ONS women or their official, monogamous gfs?
     
    Both. If the ONS is good (depending on that they mean; Willing to go Anal? Give blowjobs, no string attachments?) they might consider trying again if the girlfriend is good (that is another category, mostly they like GF’s that don’t ask questions: Like what do you smell like perfume or why there is condom in your pocket if I’m on the pill and you never use one with me? and they reflect  good image of them in front of their friends or family) they might come back.
     
    I didn’t say “every single man”. I said in a monogamous relationship.
     
    I think we agree here that just with a few exceptions a guy knows that if their girlfriend dated other men she is not considered a Slut for sleeping with them, is the random hook ups, the banging chicks just to experiment, sordid adventures what makes them consider them NON-marriage material. But again if you are 30 and have 30 boyfriends I think that falls into promiscuous, given that is hard to believe that a person can be that lucky (or unlucky depending on your POV) without making a considerable effort or lifestyle that lead to that number. And for the record I do also screen out a guy with such a high number. Promiscuous persons are a bad emotional investment regardless the gender, YMMV.

  • OffTheCuff

    This is about telling your partner what you like or not like and asking them participate in a certain fantasy if they are okay with that. Personally, I’d only do that in a secure monogamous relationship.
    .

    What the heck does that have to do with promiscuity?! Nothing!
    .
    Any guy who labels a woman “promiscuous” because she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is simply using the word just to harm her. (If the woman has a fantasy of getting gang-banged, then that’s a different story then.)
    .
    Ladies, you would do well to distinguish the pejorative use of “slut” (“I am going to hurt you with this word, whether it is accurate or not”) versus the descriptive word (“this word has a meaning and we will use it as an adjective. Just because you don’t like the meaning, doesn’t mean we can’t use it, and it doesn’t mean all uses are pejorative.
    .
    The latter attitude towards descriptive words is simply political correctness run amok.

  • pjay

    I am empowered to help women empower themselves in the rewarding, self-empowering realm of sexual exploration.
     
     
    Women who have been oppressed for millennia, are now able to explore their inner universe of sexual sensations.  What better guide, who better to help them, than myself, pjay.

  • pjay

     
     
     
    Women Now Empowered By Everything A Woman Does
    February 19, 2003 | ISSUE 43•19 ISSUE 39•06

    OBERLIN, OH—According to a study released Monday, women—once empowered primarily via the assertion of reproductive rights or workplace equality with men—are now empowered by virtually everything the typical woman does.
    San Diego women empower themselves by eating dinner unaccompanied by men.
    “From what she eats for breakfast to the way she cleans her home, today’s woman lives in a state of near-constant empowerment,” said Barbara Klein, professor of women’s studies at Oberlin College and director of the study. “As recently as 15 years ago, a woman could only feel empowered by advancing in a male-dominated work world, asserting her own sexual wants and needs, or pushing for a stronger voice in politics. Today, a woman can empower herself through actions as seemingly inconsequential as driving her children to soccer practice or watching the Oxygen network.”
    Klein said that clothes-shopping, once considered a mundane act with few sociopolitical implications, is now a bold feminist statement.
    “Shopping for shoes has emerged as a powerful means by which women assert their autonomy,” Klein said. “Owning and wearing dozens of pairs of shoes is a compelling way for a woman to announce that she is strong and independent, and can shoe herself without the help of a man. She’s saying, ‘Look out, male-dominated world, here comes me and my shoes.'”
    Eating energy bars specially fortified with nutrients “for women” has become a feminist trend, as well.
    “Unlike traditional, phallocentric energy bars, whose chocolate, soy protein, nuts, and granola ignored the special health and nutritional needs of women, their new, female-oriented counterparts like Luna are ideally balanced with a more suitable amount of chocolate, soy protein, nuts, and granola,” Klein said. “Proto-feminist pioneers like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony could never have imagined that female empowerment would one day come in bar form.”
    Whereas early feminists campaigned tirelessly for improved health care and safe, legal access to abortion, often against a backdrop of public indifference or hostility, today’s feminist asserts control over her biological destiny by wearing a baby-doll T-shirt with the word “Hoochie” spelled in glitter.
    “Don’t tell this bitch what to do,” said Kari Eastley, 24, a participant in the Oberlin study and, according to one of her T-shirts, a “Slut Goddess.” “I wear what I want when I want, and no man is going to tell me otherwise. We’re talking Pussy Power, baby.”
    Other acts of empowerment include gossiping about the sexual proclivities of male acquaintances, lunching with other women in small groups, taking calcium-rich antacid tablets, and reading The Nanny Diaries.
    The study also cites the act of pumping one’s raised fist in a gesture of female solidarity against the oppressive forces of air pressure.
    “Nearly 90 percent of study participants have done this at least once in their lives, often accompanying their action with the exhortation ‘You go, girl!’ or, simply, ‘Whooooooo!'” Klein said.
    Perhaps most remarkably, the mere act of weight gain is now regarded as a feminist act. Though some women express reservations about the negative impact of obesity on one’s health, overweight women display a level of assertiveness, or “sassitude,” that thinner women lack.
    “Women who proclaim themselves ‘large and in charge’ refuse to be bound by traditional notions of beauty and health,” said Carla Willets, a Vassar College women’s-studies professor. “They love themselves for who they are, something no ‘normal-sized’ woman could possibly do.”
    “Of course, women can be empowered by losing weight, too,” Willets added. “Pretty much any change in weight—up or down—is empowering.”
    Klein said empowerment is now accessible to women who were long excluded.
    “Not every woman can become a physicist or lobby to stop a foundry from dumping dangerous metals into the creek her children swim in,” Klein said. “Although these actions are incredible, they marginalize the majority of women who are unable to, or just don’t particularly care to, achieve such things. Fortunately for the less impressive among us, a new strain of feminism has emerged in which mundane activities are championed as proud, bold assertions of independence from oppressive patriarchal hegemony.”
    Long Beach, CA, resident Jeanne Bradley was recently given a special commendation by the city of Los Angeles for regularly attending WNBA games.
    “From midnight cheesecake noshers to moms who don’t fool around with pain, feminist achievement covers a broad spectrum,” said Bradley in her acceptance speech. “It is great to be a female athlete, senator, or physician. But we must not overlook the homemaker who uses a mop equipped with convenient, throwaway towelettes, the college co-ed who chooses to abstain from sex, and the college co-ed who chooses to have a lot of sex. Only by lauding every single thing a woman does, no matter how ordinary, can you truly go, girls.”

  • DF

    Florence, Indulging in certian sexual behaviours will have its consequences. Wether care or not because its other people who will decide. when you step off a building, you will hit the ground hard. Is that too hard to understand?
    If there is one phrase that Mrs. Walsh should take away repeat indefinetly to young women is: No women is an Island, she is social creature, not a bubble, like all humans, and their will be social ramifications to her behaviour that she has no control over.

  • Florence

    The female reproductive system is not damaged if she has had more than partner. The idea of a woman being “used” or “damaged” or “shared like a box of clinex” is socially constructed and not supported by science. Why should an adult woman (in her mid twenties), who is in her peak fertility not have sex in a relationship if marriage is nowhere in the foreseeable future? The idea of her saving herself for later is nonsense. And if she is having sex in a relationship, why shouldn’t she be allowed to ask for what she likes?
    .
    I am not advocating “casual sex”, FWB, or random hook-ups. In such relationships men mostly and entirely care about themselves and their own enjoyment, rather than for the woman in question. This is what a woman should know and consider before making a decision to sleep with a particular man.

  • Florence

    @ DF
    You are either not reading carefully what I am writing or misinterpreting everything I say. Did I ever say “sexual behaviors” or did I point out to “certain sexual behaviors”? Of course there are sexual behaviors that have consequences – pregnancy and STDs being some of the most severe ones, along with emotional damage.

  • Sox

    @Florence

    The female reproductive system is not damaged if she has had more than partner. The idea of a woman being “used” or “damaged” or “shared like a box of clinex” is socially constructed and not supported by science

    I don’t think many guys care whether it’s socially constructed or not.  Ethics and morality are social constructs too, are they not? That being said, I agree that it’s unreasonable to expect women to hold out ’til marriage.  I think it’s only a few on here that are advocating that, and I’m fine with them expressing their preference, unrealistic as it is.

  • Florence

    “I don’t think many guys care whether it’s socially constructed or not.”
    .
    Well yes, because most guys don’t care, women in countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other oppressed societies suffer. It is largely due to feminism, that we’ve managed to change your conservative/religious or otherwise socially constructed views.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      women in countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other oppressed societies suffer. It is largely due to feminism, that we’ve managed to change your conservative/religious or otherwise socially constructed views.

      http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/2010/04/moral-depravity-of-radical-feminists.html

      Re Joan Scott’s position on stonings, honor killings and genital mutilation in Islamic countries:

      “If one had expected a radical feminist to offer a full throated condemnation of these barbaric practices, practices that are especially designed to terrorize women, one would have been disappointed.

      In reality, Joan Scott was wallowing in the slime of her own moral relativism, to say nothing of her guilt at being a citizen of the United States.

      Who was she, a citizen of a monstrous country like the United States, to criticize anyone else’s cultural practices? In Scott’s view, someone who lives in a country that still, in some places, restricts access to abortion, Americans have no right to condemn anyone else’s customs or mores.

      As a Western woman, she cannot grant herself the authority to pass judgment on anyone outside of the West. And besides, she believes that the whole controversy over stoning– and maybe also over honor killings and female genital mutilation– has been stirred up to silence public debate about the high levels of Muslim unemployment in Europe.

      Given the moral deficiencies of the West, she was persuaded that a ban on stoning adulteresses cannot and should not be imposed by the West.”

  • DF

    Let me provide a distill response to your obscuring verbose,
    What sort of sexual artistry you do in your own home is none of my concern, We all have our ‘own’ styles. How many men you have serviced is.
    You will not be the mother of my children. Any mother of my children will treat you with suspicion as a home-wrecker. My daughters will not see you as rolemodel to emulate This is all outside of your control.
     
     

  • Abbot

    “The idea of her saving herself for later is nonsense.”
    .
    True, and therefore it is also nonsense when that later man rejects her for all that messy empowerment nonsense. Life is full of all sorts of nonsense. So its not shaming after all….just nonsense. 

  • Florence

    …OK.

  • pjay

    @Florence:
    *
    “In such relationships men mostly and entirely care about themselves and their own enjoyment, rather than for the woman in question. This is what a woman should know and consider before making a decision to sleep with a particular man.”
    *
     
    That is an incredibly bigoted and sexist statement.  Typical American feminist bigotry.

  • DF

     
    You see abbot, with florence
    Child illegitamcy, teenage pregnancy, high divorce, broken family, chaos in the dating market
    Why all these things are merely “social constructs”, they don’t really have any bearing on our lives.
     

  • Florence

    DF
    You seriously, have NO idea what you are talking about. Do you think that most 25 year olds non-married women are virgins? Do you think that they are all domed to everything you mentioned? I don’t know if you are a woman or a man, but you are extremely stigmatized and close-minded.

  • Abbot

    “It is largely due to feminism, that we’ve managed to change your conservative/religious or otherwise socially constructed views.”
    .
    That is the funniest statement yet. Of course, by inventing pills we enabled you to entertain us with your bodies on a first date and other similar fun behaviors. Heck, foreign women in third world countries never or hardly ever do that. The West is the best. So, hell yeah, we changed our views…of you. But our view of what constitutes a life partner has NEVER changed and when presented with options outside the hookup pool, men will run to them. Guaranteed.

  • Abbot

    “Do you think that most 25 year olds non-married women are virgins?”
    .
    again, for probably the hundredth time, what does virginity have to do with any of this? enough is enough. 

  • DF

    I never said virgins, I said women with a large record of previous boyfriends would never become the mother of my children as with most men. Mrs. Walsh has well documented this and prescribes exactly that for her female readers, to keep the number of sexual partners down. Women aren’t held in some social vacuumn, right now 30year old women are having problems landing men to commit to, so as to have a family.
    You have managed to not comprehend the +100 posts of Mrs. Walsh or mine for that matter.

  • Florence

    Why do you ALL automatically assume that a woman who would like to tell a bf what she likes or not or if she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is necessarily a slut or has a high number?

  • Abbot

    “Do you think that they are all domed to everything you mentioned? I don’t know if you are a woman or a man, but you are extremely stigmatized and close-minded.”
    .
    I dont think a woman is doomed if she cannot land a life partner. Unless she feels that way upon not being able to do so. 
    .
    “close-minded” – ah, another one of those shaming terms directed at men not strong enough to break form the social conditioning that clouds his feminist expected view of a throughly sexually explored woman, all cavity searched by half the TSA and therefore ready for baby making and his undivided unconditional love and commitment. 

  • Sox

    @Florence That’s a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think? Besides, many of these men in question are in Afghanistan bleeding and dying in an effort to help create an environment where a society can progress to the point of adopting some Western values, including equality. You’d think feminists would be championing women in combat roles so they could be part of the effort to free these oppressed Afghan and Pakistani citizens.
    Why do you ALL automatically assume that a woman who would like to tell a bf what she likes or not or if she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is necessarily a slut or has a high number?
    All of us? I never said that.

  • DF

    They are two different concepts. AGAIN what you want to do in bed sexually with your boyfriend, men could hardly care. How many men you have slept with, does concern men.
    What don’t you understand, its a simple concept.

  • Sox

    Definitely taking a while to get the hang of this formatting.

  • Florence

    “Besides, many of these men in question are in Afghanistan bleeding and dying in an effort to help create an environment where a society can progress to the point of adopting some Western values, including equality.”
    .
    Are you aware that if a woman tries to suggest to her housband to wear a condom, her personal security and the relationship might be threated? Are you aware how stigmatized men there are? The very suggestion of a condom is seen as implying infidelity.

  • Sox

    “Are you aware that if a woman tries to suggest to her housband to wear a condom, her personal security and the relationship might be threated? Are you aware how stigmatized men there are? The very suggestion of a condom is seen as implying infidelity.”
    By “these men” I was referring to Americans.  But sure, I’m not surprised.

  • Sox

    Sorry for all the posts.
     
    Above when I said “I was referring to Americans,” I left out the other allied forces…forgive me for being typically ethnocentric :)

  • Plain Jane

    ” Daughters want to hear from their dads.”
    I’m probably going to be one of those parents who doesn’t discuss stuff with my kids, beyond the basic birds and bees.  I found such talks coming from my parents, both mom and dad, as embarrassing and creepy. 
    I’m just not comfortable talking about sex with family.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m just not comfortable talking about sex with family.

      Well then you should be glad your mother is not a sex and relationship blogger :)

  • Wayfinder

    I doubt that very many men will object to anything you want to do in bed…so long as it is with him. I’m a little confused that some women seem to take the desire for exclusivity as an affront to their self-esteem. If you want to sleep around, you should accept the consequences. And the same for men. Even in the ‘bad old days’ a man who got caught would be in trouble, the double standard has never been as black and white as it’s sometimes portrayed.
    .
    A large part of the argument has been that these things are not social constructs-that there are deeper aspects of our biology and psychology that are only partally influenced by our social constructs. We can choose what to do about what we want, but we have much less control over the want itself.
    .
    A woman may say that she has needs: it’s still her responsibility what she does about them. And the same for the men, though they mostly have an entirely different problem.

  • OffTheCuff

    Why do you ALL automatically assume that a woman who would like to tell a bf what she likes or not or if she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is necessarily a slut or has a high number?
    .
    You use the word ALL here. I don’t. I’d bet Mike C and Brendan don’t. I don’t know how much clearer I can be. Please, point to any quote by any man that illustrates this.
    .
    I said: “Any guy who labels a woman promiscuous because she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is simply using the word just to harm her”. This means HE IS WRONG. It means I DISAGREE with a guy who does this. It means I DON’T THINK SHE’S A SLUT. It means I THINK IT’S FALSE ACCUSATION. It means I think HE’S JUST BEING MEAN. I apologize for the shouting but I seem to be communicating the exact opposite point of what I intend.

  • Mike C

    I’m probably going to be one of those parents who doesn’t discuss stuff with my kids, beyond the basic birds and bees.  I found such talks coming from my parents, both mom and dad, as embarrassing and creepy. 
    I’m just not comfortable talking about sex with family.

    Yup, definitely one aspect of a good parent would be to allow your own personal discomfort to interfere with giving good guidance to your kids.

  • Abbot

    “Why do you ALL automatically assume that a woman who would like to tell a bf what she likes or not or if she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is necessarily a slut or has a high number?”
    .
    Yeah Yeah, why are we doing that? Stop it. Besides, sluts are great fun. 

  • Mike C

    I’d bet Mike C and Brendan don’t. I don’t know how much clearer I can be.

    You would be right on that.  I actually appreciate a woman who can tell a BF or husband what she likes because in my experience no two woman like the exact same thing when it comes to stimulation of the clit.  I’m not going to assume a woman has a high number just because she knows what she likes.  There is no logical reason to connect the two.
     
     

  • Abbot

    “I’m probably going to be one of those parents who doesn’t discuss stuff with my kids, beyond the basic birds and bees.”
    .
    You wouldn’t want them asking what mommy did. They might run off and tell hubby. You know how kids are.

  • Geoff

    @DF,
    “They are two different concepts. AGAIN what you want to do in bed sexually with your boyfriend, men could hardly care. How many men you have slept with, does concern men.
    What don’t you understand, its a simple concept.
    .
    It’s an uncomfortable concept if you’re a woman who’s slept with a lot of men before you realized men don’t want to marry a woman who’s slept with a lot of men.  Set HamsterDrive at Warp Factor 4…and, engage.

  • terre

    I’m generally against “teaching” your kids about the realities of sex because it puts the cart before the horse: you’re giving them condoms so that… they don’t have irresponsible sex? The more you sexualize children and promote sex as some kind of normal rite of passage, the more it’ll happen. It’s not hard.

  • terre

    You seriously, have NO idea what you are talking about. Do you think that most 25 year olds non-married women are virgins? Do you think that they are all domed to everything you mentioned? I don’t know if you are a woman or a man, but you are extremely stigmatized and close-minded.
    .
    Who said they are? Since when is the very existence of something (promiscuity and borderline spinsterhood) a good argument in its favor?

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @ExNewYorker
    The hamster knows nothing of jet lag! I’ll try putting “live comment preview” back in. I had to take it out when plugins were taking down my blog last week.

  • Abbot

    “It’s an uncomfortable concept if you’re a woman who’s slept with a lot of men before you realized men don’t want to marry a woman who’s slept with a lot of men.”
    .
    This entire website is littered with comments that try every which way to skirt around this very point. It is also the main and probably sole driver of the sex positive cult. Its as if a huge bucket of icy cold water was thrown over a few million American women.

  • Plain Jane

    “You wouldn’t want them asking what mommy did. They might run off and tell hubby. You know how kids are.”
    Neither me nor my husband will be virgins.  Neither the authoress of this blog or her husband were virgins at marriage.  Neither of my parents were virgins at marriage.  Neither were at least  one set of my grandparents (that I know of) were virgins at marriage.
    Anyone who expects a virgin at marriage is either extremely religious or just extremely out of touch with reality.
    Which brings me back to what I was saying about Northern European countries.  You will not find grown men there lamenting over the lack of adult virgins or expecting that that’s what women should be as old as their mid or late 20s.
    Of course Northern Europeans are less religious and more scientific than Americans.
    Here, we’ve got politicians wanting “Creationism” to be taught in public schools!
    Its a hot mess.

  • Plain Jane

    “Well then you should be glad your mother is not a sex and relationship blogger ”
    Yes!  LOL.  Susan, what do your kids think about this blog?  Do they ever comment here?

  • Plain Jane

    Regarding the feminists not speaking out against atrocities in place like Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc – let me ask this.
    Decades ago I first heard of “clitoral circumsion” or “genital mutilation”.  From whom?  Men?
    Mens Rights Activists? 
    NO.
    Women.  Feminists.
    Feminists continually protested against these practices and wrote about them to inform the wider world, BOTH native women AND international feminists.
    Same with honor killings and stonings.
    The US is only recently becoming concerned with these things but I was living abroad decades ago when I became privy to all of this as a child – through feminist literature and international newspapers.
    It just cracks me up that young American men (and old ones who only read American newspapers) are thinking these things are new on the scene of global awareness, that they have been brought to the global fore via MEN, and that feminists have never raised a finger over any of it.
    Thats a bunch of disinformation.
    Drink the Kool Aid!

  • terre

    Plain Jane, you don’t know anything about Northern Europe. You’ve studiously ignored a comment addressed to you from a Swede — Sweden, of course, being the country that femme harpies mean when they say “Northern Europe”. My ex idolized that gummy-toothed, dull as dishwater bureaucratic nightmare too.

  • terre

    As an aside, women who get in a tizzy about female oppression in Egypt or Afghanistan or whatever are also the least likely to pick up a gun and do something about it. “I want to liberate women the world over, so long as someone else does it for me.”

  • Plain Jane

    @Florence, “Well yes, because most guys don’t care, women in countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other oppressed societies suffer. It is largely due to feminism, that we’ve managed to change your conservative/religious or otherwise socially constructed views.”
    —–
    All developed countries have strong feminist movements.
    All third world (politicallyl incorrect term, they call it “developing countries” or “majority world” now) anyway, all 3rd world countries where there is abject poverty for men, women and children, horrible living conditions and oppression of women are countries that have NOT had strong feminist movements as of yet.

    The most patriarchal of nations are the most backward.
    Where men and women have made great inroads into equality – those nations are not backwards.
    No place is perfect but American men complaining about the USA sure as heck won’t want to live in Afghanistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia.

  • Abbot

    “Neither me nor my husband will be virgins.  Neither the authoress of this blog or her husband were virgins at marriage.  Neither of my parents were virgins at marriage.  Neither were at least  one set of my grandparents (that I know of) were virgins at marriage.Anyone who expects a virgin at marriage is either extremely religious or just extremely out of touch with reality.”
    .
    Why   are   you   so   fixated   on   VIRGINS??????????????????????????
    .

  • Abbot

    “I’m probably going to be one of those parents who doesn’t discuss stuff with my kids, beyond the basic birds and bees.”.You wouldn’t want them asking what mommy did. They might run off and tell hubby. You know how kids are.

  • Plain Jane

    @terre, “Plain Jane, you don’t know anything about Northern Europe. You’ve studiously ignored a comment addressed to you from a Swede — Sweden, of course, being the country that femme harpies mean when they say “Northern Europe”. My ex idolized that gummy-toothed, dull as dishwater bureaucratic nightmare too.”
    —-
    I know about it because I’ve been there. 
    I’ve not seen your comments.
    I’ve not been to Sweden.
    Do men have hang ups about virginity there?  I’d be surprised.   Its a not a very religious country is it? 
    I’ve been to several OTHER Northern European countries and you will not find men with the sexual hang ups that Puritanical American men have.  You will also not find religious fanatics on the level that you find in the US.
    They are more scientifically minded and less superstitious than us Americans.
    Sex is seen as something to be enjoyed by adults in a responsible and safe manner.
    They have little moralistic agony over it.
    Again, is your experience with Swedish men that they morally agonize over adult women having sex such as we are seeing here on this blog and other American blogs?

  • Geoff

    Because men like them, and she isn’t one?

  • Abbot

    “Do men have hang ups about virginity there? ”
    .
    Just like in the US — NO. NO. NO. NO.

  • snowdrop111

    “Exactly how would a woman be shamed? Are folks walking up to her and wagging their fingers – shame shame? I have never heard of that. Have you? Are men shaming them? If so, how? This is all very vague, so what are the shaming methods?”
    It’s easy to get the point across in a very subtle way.  All you have to do is in a group of girls, say something like “Oh I’d never do __________.   As if!”  with a tone of “That’s beneath me.”  Not make it about anyone else…just make it about what you personally would never, ever do, with a little tone as if the activity in question is so far beneath you as to be ridiculous.  Don’t say anything about anyone else.
    The girl in earshot who has done the activity in question, will either go along and act like the activity is beneath her, as well, or speak up and say “So what does that make me?”  “I slept with 100 guys in college, are you saying that makes me a slut?”
    The first girl goes “Oh no I’m not judging–I’m just saying it’s not for me.  I wish I could be free, like you!  I wish I weren’t so inhibited!”  Deny, deny, deny that you meant to judge.  But the point is taken, and the damage is done.
    Girl B will proceed to tell everyone Girl A is a priss, which can’t be avoided.  Meanwhile, Girl B pulls this all the time too.  Girl B may say, in a group, “Oh I’d NEVER move somewhere to be with a man!  That’s so lame!” when some other woman in the group has done so and she damn well knows it.  If someone else says “Amy did,” Girl B goes “Oh I’m not judging–I just couldn’t do it!”  Point taken, shaming done.
     
     

  • Plain Jane

    “I’m generally against “teaching” your kids about the realities of sex because it puts the cart before the horse: you’re giving them condoms so that… they don’t have irresponsible sex? The more you sexualize children and promote sex as some kind of normal rite of passage, the more it’ll happen. It’s not hard.”
    —————-
    I had a conversation recently with a mom who told me her 14 year old daughter has engaged in sex with a 14 year old boy.
    The mom said she cannot tell her daughter not to do it because she herself had sex at 14.
    I said, “well, that doesn’t mean you cannot forbid her to do it and also prevent her from doing it by making sure she’s never alone with a boy” 
    The mom was like, “well, I would by a hypocrite”
    Anyway, she went on to tell me that she warned the girl that boys here age will say whatever girls want to hear in order to get into their pants and that she should not fall for it because they don’t mean anything they say, they are just horny as hell and want sex.
    She said her daughter was like, “MOM oh my god thats exactly what happened to me, how did you know?”
    The mom said, “because I’ve been there, Sweetheart”.

  • Geoff

    Directed at Abbot…sorry for double post
     

  • Abbot

    “they morally agonize over adult women having sex”
    .
    Has morality been mentioned. Huh, did not see that. Agonizing? why? Sex with empowerment hungry women is actually quite pleasurable. 

  • terre

    I know about it because I’ve been there. I’ve not seen your comments.I’ve not been to Sweden.Do men have hang ups about virginity there?  I’d be surprised.   Its a not a very religious country is it? I’ve been to several OTHER Northern European countries and you will not find men with the sexual hang ups that Puritanical American men have.  You will also not find religious fanatics on the level that you find in the US.They are more scientifically minded and less superstitious than us Americans.Sex is seen as something to be enjoyed by adults in a responsible and safe manner.They have little moralistic agony over it.Again, is your experience with Swedish men that they morally agonize over adult women having sex such as we are seeing here on this blog and other American blogs?
    .
    Like I said, there’s a Swedish man http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/01/25/hookinguprealities/the-new-sex-math-probabilities-and-opportunities/#comment-28542 who addressed you just yesterday. Europe is not this utopian Eden of sexual wonders.
    .
    Also makes one think: if American men are so puritanical about sex, why does a blog intended for women used by sex-hungry men like this one exist?

  • Plain Jane

    Abbot says:
    January 31, 2011 at 7:50 pm
    “Why do you ALL automatically assume that a woman who would like to tell a bf what she likes or not or if she wants to use a sex toy or try a different position is necessarily a slut or has a high number?”
    .
    @ Abbot:  Yeah Yeah, why are we doing that? Stop it. Besides, sluts are great fun.
    ———————————-
    As a guy would you have had to received a blow job from a woman before to be able to tell a woman that you want one?  Would you have had to receive one before in order to know that its going to feel good?

    I’ll let you in on what little girls are doing:
    Virgin pubescent girls are discovering their bodies, masterbating and fantasizing.
    This doesn’t involve boys at all (only in the mind).
    This goes on for years until she first has sex – whenever that is – could be 16, could be 30!
    I can guarantee that if a girl has spent years masterbating and fantasizing she’s going to know at least something of what she might like from a guy and be able to tell him, even if she’s never had sex with another human before in her life.
    As a guy would you have had to received a blow job from a woman before to be able to tell a woman that you want one?

  • Abbot

    “It’s easy to get the point across in a very subtle way.  All you have to do is in a group of girls, say something like…”
    .
    Well, that’s a load off. Men just empower them to the point of being shamed by other women and then go find more modest NON-VIRGINS to marry. 

  • Plain Jane

    @terre, I’m not a utopian thinker.  No place is a utopia, sexual or otherwise.
    But I know that Americans are way more religious, fanatical and hung up wrt sex than Northern Europeans.
    Don’t even get me started on politicians wanting “creationism” bunk to be taught in public schools!
    Americans are superstitious.

  • Geoff

    Starting to think there are no women here searching for a male perspective in order to potentially change their behavior.
    .
    It’s only a search for validation for behavior already being engaged in.
    .
    Someone tell me I’m wrong, and why.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Starting to think there are no women here searching for a male perspective in order to potentially change their behavior.
      .
      It’s only a search for validation for behavior already being engaged in.

      Of course this is going on! Hardly surprising. In some cases, e.g. for Jess it’s validation for behavior engaged in years and years ago. People don’t radically alter their way of being in the world because some guys on a blog say they should. In fact, most of the thinking that gets done around these issues probably gets done over time, as someone reads a post, mulls it over, asks a girlfriend what they think, etc. You have to remember that this blog contradicts much of what women have been told as they grew up. Some get it, some know I’m right but don’t like what it says about their future prospects. Some find HUS a source of support as they walk the path less traveled.
      .
      I will say, Geoff, that your advocacy of remaining a virgin until marriage is going to be a non-starter here. I don’t preach it, women don’t do it – you’re not likely to find women sympathetic to that advice here.

  • terre

    Why   are   you   so   fixated   on   VIRGINS??????????????????????????
    .
    I’ve said this before, but the wrangling over virginity is because it gets to the very core of female chastity. Women don’t really care whether or not you ‘judge’ them for their ‘number’, hence why most are somewhat diplomatic (if flippant) on this blog, Susan included. What they do care about is if you judge them for that one shot at pure pleasure they enjoyed in their (very) young years, when their animal instincts were reigning supreme. Put yourself in their shoes: super alphas in a confined environment like high school are titillating every receptive bone in your body, and they’re offering you not only genetic fulfilment (pun intended) but pure, utter hedonistic pleasure, of a kind you’ll never excel as your body slowly degrades and your spiritual energy tapers out. As a man, it’d be like if a nubile, ample-bosomed teen had propositioned you without commitment when you were just a sapling. Who in their right mind would say no?
    .
    It’s like the fable about giving a mouse a glass of milk. Tell a woman you don’t care if she’s a virgin and she’s already won the most crucial victory of all; after that, it’s trivial to go from virgin -> one or two ‘meaningful’ partners -> five or six and a one night stand, etc. This is cold territory, and not for the meek-hearted.

  • Plain Jane

    ExNewYorker says:
    January 31, 2011 at 3:58 pm
    From the article Abott linked:
    Most teenage boys want to have sex with supermodels. Later, they acknowledge the market reality that there is a general scarcity of supermodels and a specific scarcity of supermodels who want to have sex with them. They adjust their standards to fit the market in which they live.
    Your average guy has had reality hit him in the face often enough that “settling”, so to speak, has almost been brainwashed into him.  Even the cads have some measure of understanding that life is full of rejection.  So, adjusting to the market is something most guys have some measure of understanding, even if many choose to just settle and not increase their own “value” in the market or just drop out of the market altogether.  Even men with options don’t have all the options they might want, but they deal with it.
    .
    For a lot of women, adjusting to the market seems to be almost too shocking to contemplate.  I mean, again from the article:
    “I think the main problem in Beijing is that most of the men here I wouldn’t touch back home, so why would I here?” — Juanita Hartman, 33, American.
    —————————————————

    Ex New Yorker, Beijing has some FINE Asian men.
    Is she saying she wouldn’t touch Asians back home so she’s not going for them in Beijing?
    What’s the point in going to a foreign country unless you open yourself to the “market” there?
    At any rate, I had to adjust years ago when I couldn’t get men from my own race, ethinic, religious and age group to ask me out or say yes when I asked them.
    That’s why I recommend to women to try intercultural and interracial dating. 
    Men who were 6s from my own “group” would not have me but 8s from other groups will.
    Works for me, don’t see why it wouldn’t work for other women.

  • Geoff

    @Sox,
    “I think it’s only a few on here that are advocating that [waiting until marriage], and I’m fine with them expressing their preference, unrealistic as it is.”
    .
    Why is it “unrealistic” to expect women to wait until marriage? Serious question.
    . .
    In fact, I would love it if Ms. Walsh made this question a post unto itself: “Is virginity at marriage an unrealistic expectation for American men?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In fact, I would love it if Ms. Walsh made this question a post unto itself: “Is virginity at marriage an unrealistic expectation for American men?”

      This doesn’t require a post. It’s an unrealistic expectation for men to have of women, and for women to have of themselves. I’ve given all the reasons before, so I won’t do so again here. The bottom line is that by age 26, the average age of marriage for a woman in the U.S. without a college education, only 4% of women are virgins (and that includes the women who are “technical” virgins).

  • Abbot

    “It’s only a search for validation for behavior already being engaged in.”
    .
    Oh yeah, that is very transparent. These steps are helpful but no guarantee of a man worth marrying:
    .

    The 1st thing one must do to begin Recovery to Admit that they have a Problem. Then…
    .

    The 2nd thing one must do to begin Recovery is to accept that they need help! You can’t do it all on Your own! So they come to HUS. Then…

     

    .
    The 3rd thing needed to achieve to Accept Help, (Self Help or Professional Help) & stop the unbecoming behavior! Then…
     
    .
    Fourth: Once One has found Acceptance of their Problem, Accepted some kind of help & has Stopped the behavior, they must have a Support System! Then…

     

    .

    Fifth & very essential, is to take Recovery One-Day-at-a-Time! It is a Daily battle, but any woman can stay clean for ONE Day! Then…
     .
    Sixth: After getting through A Day & continuing Daily, a Day becomes a Week & a Week becomes a Month! As you go you find that YOU Can Do It! Then…

     

    .

    Seven: Having a Support System & having remained “Clean” for a while, You can no longer need or associate with Old People, Places & Things! You will now find that You can help others struggling to get where You now are! This is the Key to Long-Term Dignity; Sharing It with Others!

  • terre

    Why is it “unrealistic” to expect women to wait until marriage? Serious question.. .In fact, I would love it if Ms. Walsh made this question a post unto itself: “Is virginity at marriage an unrealistic expectation for American men?”
    .
    Of course it’s unrealistic. Is it proper? The right thing to do? I believe so. But it has no appreciable effect. The belief today, even amongst generally traditionalist parents, is that women are entitled to a ‘grace’ period (how little they understand that simply letting her loose forever would do her better than a brief time slot of expected pleasure fulfilment). Hence why American men should be extremely wary of marriage at best.

  • Abbot

    “Is she saying she wouldn’t touch Asians back home so she’s not going for them in Beijing?”
    .
    She was referring only to the Americans. The point was that she was invisible to the American men who were surrounded by a candy store of much higher quality women. American women take their SMP stuck up entitlement attitude wherever they go. But it only marginally works for them, until they want a life partner, in the US.

  • Plain Jane

    @ Florence;
    Quoting Terre, “There are a lot of good things about American women; I think Roosh has written about this. They’re far more open to new experiences than Europeans are (despite what American women think, Europe is not a “liberated” paradise). You can basically sleep with an American if you can make her laugh, which has its charms. But after dating them my whole life I do have to wonder how people take them seriously.”
    *
    Florence replies;
    First of all, who the h*ck is Roosh and why is every single American guy so obsessed with this particular person and what he writes? Just because some European woman turned him down (and rightfully so) for sex, he automatically assumed that European women aren’t open to “new experiences”?
    Second, have you ever been in places like Amsterdam, Berlin or Paris? If by “new experiences” you are referring to sexual experiences, I can give you quite a lot of examples of things first ever invented in Europe. … People are very open-minded to premarital sex…. It is my observation that in Europe people actually “date” in the traditional sense of the word “dating” as in the man would invite the woman out and wait for some time before they have sex for a first time….. People have a lot of premarital sex, but it is somehow exercised differently and with more caution than it is in the US.”
    ———-
    THANKYOU FLORENCE!
    I don’t know where “terre” is from or if he has ever been to Europe, but he’s trying to convince me that I’m wrong about it also, even though I’ve been there several times, so its good to see an ACTUAL EUROPEAN confirming what I say.
    Perhaps “terre” gets all his info about Europe from ROOSH, who by the way, is there for the FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE – in Iceland, trying to “score” chicks with “game”.
    Good to know Icelandic belles are not buying what he’s selling.
    So he’s been in Iceland, just 1 country for just a few weeks and because he can’t get laid he’s saying “European women are not open to new experiences”???

    LOL!!!!!!!!!

    No, dude, they are just not open TO YOUR EXPERIENCE!
    He’s obviously no Jimi Hendrix.
    ;)

  • Plain Jane

    @ Abbot, ”She was referring only to the Americans. The point was that she was invisible to the American men who were surrounded by a candy store of much higher quality women. American women take their SMP stuck up entitlement attitude wherever they go. But it only marginally works for them, until they want a life partner, in the US.”
    —–
    Then she’s a fool.
    Chop Suey is so much more tastey than baked pototoes.
    ;)
    Seriously, what American goes to a FOREIGN country to try to date OTHER Americans?
    What a waste.

  • Abbot

    “Seriously, what American goes to a FOREIGN country to try to date OTHER Americans?”
    .
    Depends on the country. American men are rock stars when hitting the tarmac in most nations outside of Europe. Trouble is, if they stay too long its very difficult to go back to dating in the US as they are, well, ruined. American women are stuck in their little world and beyond sex, don’t do well in Asia or most places where women go gaga over American men. 

  • Abbot

    “Chop Suey is so much more tastey than baked potatoes.”
    ,
    I trust you will not be sharing that detail with the kids or hubby…

  • terre

    You don’t cease to amuse, Jane. I am, in fact, from Europe.

  • Plain Jane

    ” American men are rock stars when hitting the tarmac in most nations outside of Europe. Trouble is, if they stay too long its very difficult to go back to dating in the US as they are, well, ruined. American women are stuck in their little world and beyond sex, don’t do well in Asia or most places where women go gaga over American men. ”
    *
    That’s never been my experience.
    :)
    “Chop Suey is so much more tastey than baked potatoes.”
    ,
    I trust you will not be sharing that detail with the kids or hubby…
    ——

    Hubby will most likely be either Chop Suey, Masala Curry or Injira himself.
    ;)

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane: “Again, is your experience with Swedish men that they morally agonize over adult women having sex such as we are seeing here on this blog and other American blogs?”
     
    The biggest Swedish internet forum is called Flashback (5 % of the population are members). You are allowed to write in English there, so become a member and ask your questions to other Swedes, if you do not believe me.

  • Abbot

    Geoff
    .
    Starting to think there are no women here searching for a male perspective in order to potentially change their behavior..It’s only a search for validation for behavior already being engaged in..Someone tell me I’m wrong, and why.
    .
    Silence is an admission. And the men clearly do not need validation for any behavior as that is a given every day and everywhere. Conversely, some women, a socially mal-adjusted minority indoctrinated by feminism, want desperately to fulfill any indiscriminate be-like-men fantasy, get any type of compensatory validation, and resort to the most base carnal cheapest easiest low hanging fruit – the no-challenge-to-get always-available male willingness to screw. They buy off on this group-think indulgence-without-consequences marching order and unsurprisingly its the same set of women who are impulsively drawn to books titled “Eat More, Weigh Less.” No, they do not need to change since a group of women should always be available to serve men’s random sexual needs prior to marriage. It is men who need to change; to be better at identifying traits, patterns and behaviors that may compromise respect for your wife and pose risks to matrimonial harmony and longevity. 

  • Lavazza

    Susan: “The bottom line is that by age 26, the average age of marriage for a woman in the U.S. without a college education, only 4% of women are virgins (and that includes the women who are “technical” virgins).”

    A more interesting figure would be the percentage of women who have had no other sex partner than their husband at marriage. This figure will not be high, but I think 5-15 % is clearly possible.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Lavazza

    That would be interesting! Just checked the CDC data, which says that 25% of American women have 0-1 lifetime sexual partners. Women tend to underreport, but this suggests that you are right, possibly even conservative in your estimate.

  • Lavazza

    Well, some of these women with 0-1 partners never marry, so that figure does not give perfect help, Also some women only had 0-1 at marriage but changed their ways later. But a sizeable minority is a safe guess. Marrying a woman who had had no partners but you is still far from an impossibility, that’s for sure, whatever women with a high count says.

  • Lavazza

    I guess the CDC figure is a snapshot of the whole adult female population rather than a figure given at death or an advanced age. 

  • Florence

    Starting to think there are no women here searching for a male perspective in order to potentially change their behavior.
    .
    It’s only a search for validation for behavior already being engaged in.

    Of course this is going on! Hardly surprising.
    …………
    No, this is not what is going on. I do not have a high number and my number is much much lower than my avg gf who is my age. I entered the SMP, when I was an adult (>21) and I have never had outside relationship sex. The reason why I have a number >1 is because I have chosen to terminate the relationship in 75% of the time. Only one person has ever broken up with me and that is because he wanted to play the field. Frankly, my number would increase with the next bf I have.
    .
    I am raising my voice on this forum so that I can hopefully make the SMP a more female-friendly place for the future generations, and hopefully stripe down some of the stigma. I feel that I have a moral obligation to do so. If a woman has made mistakes in her life that have lead her to having a large number or to not being a virgin, so what? It is automatically assumed by men that she is going to be a cheating wife? Some extremely flawed and biased study that shows that people with high numbers are more likely to cheat IS not a reliable source to make correct conclusions.
    .
    Instead of critizing women or shaming them for having a number, we should educate them. AND EDUCATING A WOMAN about SEX, does not involve telling her that women with high numbers are horrible people and are perceived as sluts or as a non-marriage material by men.
    .
    I will give you a personal example at the risk of disclosing too much personal info. I have slept with a BF in a monogamous relationship, thinking that I will get conformation of the strength of our relationship or even take the relationship “to the next level”. Was I wrong? VERY much so, and I can tell you I was an emotional mess for a year after. Does that mean I am dumb or stupid? According to this forum, this is what i am, although I have a master’s degree and tons of experience in other fields. I wish someone had educated me about male psychology and how men perceive the sexual experience, rather than telling me to wait until marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence
      I did not mean to target you in saying that women seek validation for their choices here. This is by no means true of all commenters. There are some women who confess to having had very promiscuous pasts, and they seek approval, or at least encouragement from the guys here. I believe that one commenter who presents as a man is actually a woman writing with these exact motives.

      Instead of critizing women or shaming them for having a number, we should educate them. AND EDUCATING A WOMAN about SEX, does not involve telling her that women with high numbers are horrible people and are perceived as sluts or as a non-marriage material by men.

      Well, you’re confusing two things here. The first is educating women who do not yet have a high number. My goal is to do that so that when a woman makes choices about sex, she is doing so with full understanding of the short- and long-term consequences. I never said that promiscuous women are horrible people. Being promiscuous is not evil, or even morally wrong, in my opinion. But it’s a way of living that takes an enormous emotional toll on most women.
      .
      Second, there is a group of women who already has a high number – I know several women in the 25-50 range, and there are women who have commented here and proudly declared a number of 75 or even higher. If they’re happy, and finding their lives rewarding, I have nothing to add. And they are unlikely to find this blog. On the other hand, if they’re defensive, or worse, proselytizing, I will not hesitate to call them out. Or if they’re sharing a story of personal pain, I am likely to highlight it, as I did with Amelia Parry. What I can not do is offer absolution, or reassure women that men won’t mind. There is overwhelming evidence that that is not the case. Most men do mind, though not as much as some of the men who are participating in this thread.

      I wish someone had educated me about male psychology and how men perceive the sexual experience, rather than telling me to wait until marriage.

      That is my goal, and I try to do it as objectively as possible. Don’t confuse my mission with the goals of three male commenters. No one’s mind is getting changed here – the abstinence question is a dead end, and I personally wouldn’t bother to argue it.

  • Plain Jane

    “Just checked the CDC data, which says that 25% of American women have 0-1 lifetime sexual partners. ”
    These women might come from one of the 2 groups; either very religious or not goodlooking.
    Either way, it doesn’t help the average American man because the very religious women will require conversion from them and the not goodlooking women will not be physically appealing to them, and we’ve heard from the guys here over and over again how “visual” they are.
    *
    On another note Susan, I wanted to ask you.  I spoke with a woman who told me her 14 year old daughter has recently had sex with a 14 year old boy.  Mind you, the mother was not disturbed by this, just slightly concerned.  She said she has no “right” to punish her daughter or forbid her to do it again because she herself had sex at 14.  However she did warn her daughter that teen boys will lie to her and tell her whatever she wants to hear just to get into her pants so from now on she should be aware of that.  The daughter confirmed that yeah, the boy told her the things her mom said boys say.
    The mother is relieved that the kids were smart enough to wear condoms and she says she continues to impressed with how “smart” her daughter is when it comes to this stuff.
    Am I to believe this is how parents parent these days???
    I’m not even middle-aged and there’s no way my mom would have approached it like this.
    What’s going on?
    What do you think about this theory that a parent can’t discipline their kids not to do what they did because it would be “hypocritical”?
    It should be noted here that this mom is the archetype of the “feminine woman” that all the guys on this site have waxed eloquent about.  She regularly gets hit on by men of all races and ages because of that.
    Soft, compassionate, nurturing, nice to a fault, giving, cute, delicate, etc.
    She’s all of it.
    Could there be a correlation between femininity and bad parenting skills?
    She’s not a “bad” parent, and of course she loves her kid, but it could be called “flighty” I suppose.
    Is flightiness a coveted feminine trait?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Could there be a correlation between femininity and bad parenting skills? Is flightiness a coveted feminine trait?

      This is a very stupid question, and you know it. As for the mother you mentioned, I can’t extrapolate from that story – I don’t know the woman. If she started having sex at 14, perhaps it’s not surprising that her daughter would. As for not being hypocritical with your children, that’s a dangerous loophole. I have regularly shared stories of my own life mistakes with my children, and they have learned from them, at least some of the time. Perhaps they will be less likely to make those same mistakes as a result. When children do something wrong, dangerous or unhealthy, using the copout that we did the same thing in our youth is a way of allowing ourselves to justify their behavior. I suspect this attitude is found among many parents of drug addicts, gang member, unwed mothers, etc.

  • Wayfinder

    On the age/virginity question, I found an article about a new book that I haven’t read yet. The relevant quote:
    <blockquote>In case you were wondering, 16% of 18- to 23-year-olds are virgins, according to the surveys used in the book. In that age group there are more men than women who have never had sex. By age 27, the portion of virgins goes down to 8%.</blockquote>
    http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/18/men-have-upper-hand-in-sexual-economy/
    I’d love to see the numbers of partners vs. age, I think that would be a graph that would surprise both sides of the debate.
    @Florence
    I’m sorry you feel attacked.
    .
    Unfortunately, the number that women are being measured against isn’t her girlfriend’s number, but the man’s number. This appears to be hard-wired to a certain extent. Men haven’t been looking at studies to create this pattern; the studies merely illuminate one possible reason why they feel that way.
    .
    I agree that young women should definitely be educated about what men are looking for. Unfortunately, I think one side-effect of “Sex as Empowerment” has been to convince young men that women think just like men about sex. Both sexes are better off when we understand each other.
    .
    I’d like to state for the record that women with high numbers aren’t horrible people. Men with lower numbers are unlikely consider them for marriage, and most men will have vastly lower numbers, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t still people.
    .
    I’ve said before that I encourage women (and men) to wait for marriage. At the same time, I recognize that is a difficult request. I’m not any easier on the men who are sleeping around, but that’s not really the focus here.
    .
    If you just want sex, as some of the commenters upthread said, well, I’m not going to stop you. I’m not going to say it’s a good idea, and I’m not going to say that it’ll immediately ruin your life. The world doesn’t have that kind of instant retribution. It will probably make things tougher down the road, especially for a young woman who is meeting men with much lower numbers than herself.

  • Chili

    “These women might come from one of the 2 groups; either very religious or not goodlooking.”
    I am neither religious nor ugly. This is a very closed-minded comment. There is no logical reason to correlate looks with the number of people one has slept with.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There is no logical reason to correlate looks with the number of people one has slept with.

      True. This also assumes that good looking people are all promiscuous, which is equally fallacious.

  • Florence

    @ Terre and SOX
    “As an aside, women who get in a tizzy about female oppression in Egypt or Afghanistan or whatever are also the least likely to pick up a gun and do something about it. “I want to liberate women the world over, so long as someone else does it for me
    …….
    That’s not correct. I am totally against the war in Afghanistan. SOX says that American troops are there to help enforce equality. The idea is great, but the American approach is totally wrong and this is why pretty much the WHOLE world is now against America. How would you feel if someone comes to you from a superior nation and puts a gun to your head and tells you to start believing something opposite of what your fathers, grandfathers and your religious community ever taught you? Obviously, your natural instinct would be to resist and this is why the war in Afghanistan is the wrong approach to change the views and stigma associated with the current oppression against women. Piece-promoting projects by organizations such as the UN and the WHO and others are the way to educate people in a friendly, non-threatening manner and to expose them to the western standards while simultaneously giving them the opportunity to chose what is best for themselves and the people of their nation. Bringing foreign students from oppressed third-world countries and exposing them to the western standards of living and to our moral values thereby allowing them to create a message for themselves is a much more powerful way for them to change things in their own countries when they go back.
    ………
    @SW
    Given the moral deficiencies of the West, she was persuaded that a ban on stoning adulteresses cannot and should not be imposed by the West.”

    Even though she didn’t manage to change things, she rose awareness and now organizations who can change things are working hard to do so. It takes more than one person to change things. It takes years of long projects and commitments to change the believes, created generations ago.
    The common believe of infidelity associated with a woman demanding a man to wear a condom is now largely being changed. Most African and Muslim countries are now very much open to the use of condoms. However, it does involve changing the perception of men first and that is very difficult.

  • Abbot

    “I agree that young women should definitely be educated about what men are looking for.”
    .
    Feminists will never pander to men like that. They have this fantasy that only women get to define marriageability, 
    .
    “most men will have vastly lower numbers”
    .
    This should be told to both men and women. But it never will be as it would constitute a national embarrassment.  It would also disgust a woman when she then realizes that she has been sharing the same very small set of men with the majority of women. Moreover, most men would feel disgusted knowing that the market is really a harem and may be even less willing to choose a wife from the “palace”

  • Florence

    @ Abbot
    The way to change things is to involve men, not to put men down or tell them that their perceptions and believes are wrong. The “my way or the high way” is the wrong approach. Are there women who use it? Yes there are, but that is not the way to equality and this is not what the feminist movement is about. Criticizing, shaming and rejecting is not an efficient way to achieve something.

  • Florence

    some women supposedly do not have the opportunity to be or do not want to be in a LTR monogamous relationship, but would like to enjoy great sex. Should we shame them?

    Hmmm, I thought you were here for my two articles on the Case for Slut Shaming”
    ………..
    My promiscuous friend is not exactly “good looking”. She is chubby. She doesn’t have as much of a choice of men as you and I probably do. She says things such as “I don’t want a relationship. I don’t want to get married. I can be fine on my own and I don’t need a man in my life.” At one point I shared her views (I don’t need a man in my life). I might be wrong, but I deep down believe that she doesn’t mean to say she doesn’t want a relationship/marriage and she only says it because of all the frustration she has gotten at the SMP from men looking to score with a 10. She would like to enjoy “sex” as part of the human experience while being young. She cannot secure a monogamous relationship and therefore her only source are the occasional ONS or the FWB option. For her the FWB is the only option to experience and enjoy sex with some of the more decent looking dudes. In addition, telling her to go use a sex toy to satisfy herself is oppressive on its own. There is no substitution to the real thing.

    I am not going to criticize her for her choices, because I understand where she is coming from. I don’t know what right approach is. I am not a relationship expert. Even the good looking girls are having a hard time securing a monogamous relationship nowadays. I am trying to change her views and practices but it takes more than a conversation and more than “shaming”. She also sees it as a compliment when a man agrees to sleep with her. It makes her feel attractive, wanted and sexy, especially if the man is good looking.

  • Mule Chewing Briars

    @Florence
    My frustrated friend is not exactly “good looking”. He is chubby, and a ginger to boot.  He doesn’t have as much of a choice of women as your friend’s paramours probably do. He says things such as “I don’t want to just fool around. I can be fine on my own, but I would like to meet a nice girl and settle into a comfortable relationship.”  He would like to enjoy “sex” as part of the human experience while being young, but so far he’s pretty much SOL.  Most of the girls to whom he would have the good sense to offer the prospect of a monogamous relationship are busy offering no-strings-attached sex to the better-looking dudes.   My advice to him to use pornography to satisfy himself is oppressive on its own. There is no substitution to the real thing.
    Florence, I don’t think he’s going to  be interested in your friend in 10 years.

  • Tom

    @ mike C

    “””””
    In bed with someone, I feel like a f**king goddess. I feel hot, smart, funny, sexy, beautiful, all of it. I feel in control. Control is what I have been grasping for ever since I was blindsided by my fiance calling things off. And I don’t feel like I’m lacking anything. In bed with someone, I feel whole.
    Then the sun comes up…rolling over, I look at the person I slept with and I wonder if they felt as awesome as I did the night before. As time goes on, I usually don’t hear from them, or I do and they want something very different than what I want. They don’t want to get to know me better. They already know enough to determine they’re not interested in something more. And suddenly I don’t feel so whole again. It’s not that I regret my decisions. I just hate that the high I get from them—the control, the confidence, the courage—doesn’t last.”

    And that is exactly what a true player plays to

    ___________________________________
    Mike you are exactly right!!!!
    Question for you Mike…………The woman who wrote those words, came to a revalation in her life…She learned how she no longer wanted to be, and, by all appearances, has changed.
    Do you think there is a good possibility that this woman might be good relationship material now that she understands the promiscuous life is not for her?
    I guess this womans story is all to familiar to me, as I personally know several women, one in particular,who came to the same revalation.

    Not asking if you would consider her as a potential mate for yourself just asking if you think she might now be goodrelationship material,all things considered.

    She admits she was looking for control, I think she was also looking for comfort, no matter how temparary it was.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do you think there is a good possibility that this woman might be good relationship material now that she understands the promiscuous life is not for her?

      Although the question was addressed to Mike, I’ll weigh in here and say that I think she could definitely be good relationship material. She’s smart and funny and was completely blindsided by her fiance’s sudden defection. She was on the rebound for a couple of years, and made some decisions that she may or may not regret. In any case, she’s decided to stop having casual sex.
      .
      The relevant point, though, is not what any one person thinks or whether she is good relationship material. The point is that now she is 31, she feels battered and bruised (emotionally) by all this casual sex, and she needs some time off. It’s terrible that her fiance ditched her, and she clearly needed time to heal. But none of us is getting any younger. It’s a real problem for women.

  • Tom

    temporary….oops…lol

  • Lavazza

    Susan: “Most men do mind, though not as much as some of the men who are participating in this thread.”
     
    Well, how much men mind on average is hard to measure and maybe not very interesting, because the individual woman needs to know how much it matters to men she is interested in, and it has to be set in proportion to how much she can/will invest in the relation and how much she wants the man to invest in the relation. The fewer men she is interested in and the less she can/will invest and the more she wants the man to invest, the more her number will be of importance. The more men she is interested in and the more she can/wants to invest and the less she wants the man to invest, the less her number will be of importance.
     
    I think that even many of the “some men” do not care about a woman’s number if she will support them in style and allow them to sleep around.
     
     
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think that even many of the “some men” do not care about a woman’s number if she will support them in style and allow them to sleep around.

      Allow them to sleep around! No way! That’s a terrible tradeoff. Perhaps women will be forced to make it. I doubt it, though. Attractive promiscuous women will do just fine. They will succeed in marrying successful men they never would have dated in college.

  • Florence

    @ Mule
    Good points there. I don’t think my friend’s approach is correct. People make wrong decisions because of issues such as low self-esteem. I’ve also had times where my self-esteem has gotten really low for reasons other than my looks and I’ve made wrong selection decisions in regards to boyfriends. I’ve gotten comments such as “why is such as cute girl, who is supposedly smart and educated, dating this dude. He is nothing more than a party boy and he is unlikely to be serious.” I was looking for fun and I was feeling oppressed for being “the good, school girl”. I wanted someone opposite of me to get me out of my shell. They were right. The guy I dated was fun and good looking, but not serious and not committed enough, which resulted in me breaking up with him. He was sticking around, but was doing the minimum to impress me and displayed low levels of commitment besides the intimate exclusivity. I felt like I was being taken for granted.
    .
    My friend is “trying” hard as far as I am aware to lose weight and better herself in other ways. However, telling her to go for a person she doesn’t find attractive is oppressive, just like telling a guy to go for an ugly chick or to chose pornography is oppressive and I think wrong. It’s morally wrong to tell a person – “hey, look at yourself! You should chose people with similar to yours looks!”. There must be another solution.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The guy I dated was fun and good looking, but not serious and not committed enough, which resulted in me breaking up with him. He was sticking around, but was doing the minimum to impress me and displayed low levels of commitment besides the intimate exclusivity. I felt like I was being taken for granted.

      I think this is extremely common. It’s the agreement to date with very little effort or intimacy. Women understandably feel gratified in the short-term because they’ve gotten into a relationship, but they then feel dissatisfied or taken for granted, and realize there’s little value in “halfwaying it.”

  • Lavazza

    Florence:
     
    “However, telling her to go for a person she doesn’t find attractive is oppressive, just like telling a guy to go for an ugly chick or to chose pornography is oppressive and I think wrong. It’s morally wrong to tell a person – “hey, look at yourself! You should chose people with similar to yours looks!”. There must be another solution.”
     
    You got to be kidding.

  • OffTheCuff

    It’s morally wrong to tell a person – “hey, look at yourself! You should chose people with similar to yours looks!”. There must be another solution.
    Depends how you interpret this. It’s not morally wrong to say “If you want X, then doing Y will help you get there.” I guess it could be wrong to say “You should do X” unqualified, as a command. In this case, the implicit “if” is “If you want to have a boyfriend… then you will probably have more success choosing people similar to your looks”. Nothing wrong with that.
    If I had a fat. ugly male friend who only approached women far out of his league, was constantly rejected, and complained about it — I’d tell him to get a grip on reality. Either lower his standards, improve his looks/social skills, or hit the porn. That’s not “oppressive”, he still has the choice of what to do. The only thing I’m doing is connecting his actions with his consequences. I don’t see why females get to be exempt from reality.
    In the case of your friend, If she wants a monogamous boyfriend (and I have no idea if she does), then she can either improve her looks, or lower her standards, or go without. If she doesn’t, well, then having fun hooking up! Party on! Describing reality isn’t oppression. Further, I’d also point out that the more she spends times in hookups, the more she creates a negative feedback loop where men will be LESS likely to want to be her boyfriend. Maybe she can see that, and maybe not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If I had a fat. ugly male friend who only approached women far out of his league, was constantly rejected, and complained about it — I’d tell him to get a grip on reality. Either lower his standards, improve his looks/social skills, or hit the porn. That’s not “oppressive”, he still has the choice of what to do. The only thing I’m doing is connecting his actions with his consequences. I don’t see why females get to be exempt from reality.

      Comments like this make me realize how different male and female friendships are. Men have a way of communicating that is extremely direct, and that frankness diffuses awkwardness or tension. They just put it out there. Women do not do this. They try to put things in the best possible light, and unfortunately, that often means either feeding into a delusion, ignoring the elephant in the room, or failing to provide feedback that might be useful. I don’t know what the solution is – but I do think that women would benefit from more direct communication styles. When I’ve taken this approach – with love – my female friends have been appreciative and almost relieved. “Yes, you’ve put on a lot of weight. Let’s go for walks together, I’m desperate for an exercise partner!” etc.

  • AnonymousF

    In my opinion, the “number” issue gets an amount of attention in the HUS comments that is far out of proportion to its importance in context of the blog’s purpose. I think it’s a very small number of women who’ve had enough partners to have a significant and noticeable effect in turning away potential LTR’s/husbands in the secular/liberal college-educated dating scene. Anecdotally, I’ve heard/seen very few guys go out of their way to even ask or otherwise find out a woman’s number.

    Being notoriously promiscuous via locker room/frathouse stories or a Duke list incident will hurt a woman’s chances, but I see little correlation in real life between women who get disdained by guys for being slutty and actual partner counts. It seems to be more about how a woman chooses to market herself (dress, conversation, public behavior and who she’s seen with) than what she actually does/did behind closed doors. This is probably why HSSS (if not a troll) didn’t find the belt loop option acceptable. That’s a perfectly rational decision given how the market that I see in real life operates.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AnonF

      In my opinion, the “number” issue gets an amount of attention in the HUS comments that is far out of proportion to its importance in context of the blog’s purpose. I think it’s a very small number of women who’ve had enough partners to have a significant and noticeable effect in turning away potential LTR’s/husbands in the secular/liberal college-educated dating scene

      I think you’re right. The vast majority of casual sexual episodes will never be reported. No harm no foul if the question isn’t even asked. Honestly, this fixation on the number is a recent development. Part of the reason I don’t know mine is that we didn’t track it – and I have never been asked that question, even by my husband. Nor do I know his number. It’s sounds crazy, I know, but that’s the truth. I think a lot of the talk comes from women – it’s certainly a frequent topic among the young women I know who have had a few hookups. Instinctively, they know it’s a potential problem, and they’re eager to sweep it under the rug.

  • Tom

    @abbott
    “Screw and the city was aimed at women.So ???”
    .
    You did write that it sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills. On that list of downhills is something that women are told [lied to] is not even a consideration – that most insecure  men would not consider those four women for a life partner and its not because of their shopping habits. 
    ____________________

    There I fixed it for you…..
     

  • Tom

    Lupo says:
    January 30, 2011 at 9:56 pm
    The main thing wrong with this article is the word “empowering.” That word doesn’t mean anything: it’s  modern therapeutic babble meaning something like, “ego tripping off of,” which isn’t really something I’d describe as a positive emotion. Of course ego tripping off the fact that dudes want to stick their veiny ding dongs in you isn’t good for you. It’s only the use of that dumb word “empowering” which makes people think ego tripping is a good idea.
    _________________________________

    And you dont think we men are not ego tripping when we bed mulitple women?….It is not all about the sex with men either.

  • Tom

    @ Susan

    Great discussion by the way

    It could very well be that those who wait do so for moral and religious reasons that they apparently take seriously enough to make divorce, cheating, etc etc out of the question.

    Yes, I’ve made this same point about the data that shows the percentage of women who cheat on their husbands goes up depending on their number of past sexual partners. I don’t doubt it’s true, but the causation/correlation is not entirely clear.
    ___________________

    If I Remember right, women who had the most partners had a divorce rate of somewhere in the 45% range… That is still better than the national divorce rate of over 50% for all marriages….;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If I Remember right, women who had the most partners had a divorce rate of somewhere in the 45% range… That is still better than the national divorce rate of over 50% for all marriages….;)

      i think that 45% rate represented cheating, not divorce.

  • Abbot

    “Screw and the city was aimed at women.So ???”.
    You did write that it sells the fun part of being a slut without any of the downhills. On that list of downhills is something that women are told [lied to] is not even a consideration – that most insecure men would  consider those four women for a wham bam and its not because of their shopping habits. .

  • Tom

    @ susan

     But the point I was making in the post is that sex should ideally be an expression of love, or sincere caring, not something that makes one feel powerful. It should be a gift, and should entail the receipt of that generosity from the other person. Controlling someone else, or boosting one’s self-esteem by making a man sexually ecstatic, is not a worthwhile goal, it seems to me. As Regnerus said, it’s not so hard to do. I don’t really understand why women take it as such a compliment when a man is willing to have sex with them.
    ______________________
    Susan I totally agree with you, sex should be a gift to the person they love….However many women, as you know, get devastated when there is a beak up.. Going out and having sex is one way of coping. Maybe not the best way, but they do what feels right, or at least seems to help. In most cases it is the best they can do “then” while they are hurting badly.and maybe not thinking clearly. My woman told me it is really hard to get out of that lifestyle, ,especially when they have no one(for a relationship) they get used to the rush, at least fo a while. Many gow tired of that life and want to try a relationship again.

    It is amasing women think it is some big accomplishment to bed a man. Men are easy, I should know, I am one.  But then that is the whole, finding comfort, control,  and empowerment concept.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However many women, as you know, get devastated when there is a break up.. Going out and having sex is one way of coping. Maybe not the best way, but they do what feels right, or at least seems to help. In most cases it is the best they can do “then” while they are hurting badly.and maybe not thinking clearly.

      Yes, unfortunately, I think this is quite common. Ironically, women understand how men feel about sexual fidelity, and correctly perceive after a breakup that immediately having sex with someone new will hurt their ex. It may, but he’s unlikely to show it and give her the satisfaction. And it’s very easy for women to slip into that cycle of validation, just as Amelia Parry did. I’m not surprised that your woman grew tired of it, and she is fortunate to have found a man that she can be honest with, and who loves her without reservation.

  • Tom

    Abbot says:
    January 31, 2011 at 5:32 pm
    “but some women supposedly do not have the opportunity to be or do not want to be in a LTR monogamous relationship, but would like to enjoy great sex. Should we shame them?”
    .
    Exactly how would a woman be shamed? Are folks walking up to her and wagging their fingers – shame shame? I have never heard of that. Have you? Are men shaming them? If so, how? This is all very vague, so what are the shaming methods?
    .
    ______________________________

    Abbot, guys like you who will dismiss a woman SOLEY based on her number, even if it is not very high is the biggest shame of them all…..You have some serious baggage dude.

  • ExNewYorker

    The whole virgin thing is red herring, used by certain individuals (who they are is pretty clear), to derail the discussion from the “dangerous” truths.  Apart from Geoff, I think most of the male comments are pretty clear in advocating “low number”, not necessarily virginity.  And why low number?  Because of the “dangerous” truths shown in something like:
    http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2010/12/women-who-get-around-while-unmarried.html
    Of course, there will be the usual suspects yelping that: “it doesn’t differentiate between relationship sex and one night stands” or “correlation isn’t causation” or “insecure men worry about the number”.  But when I read Consumer Reports and find statistics about the reliability of a car, am I being insecure about car ownership? Perhaps, but so what? I don’t particularly care if it’s interpreted that way, as long as I don’t wind with a lemon that breaks down every road trip to LA.  And do I need to know the specifics as to why a particular car is unreliable when I don’t particularly want to be a full-time mechanic?
    .
    The reality is that a low number is a first order approximation for “impulse control” and “long term” thinking.  And the exact cutoff will vary from guy to guy, but a good rule of thumb is: “not much more than the guy”.   As your average guy isn’t an alpha cad, most guys will tend to have relatively low numbers.  In today’s SMP, it really behooves a long term thinking guy be very careful in their ltr partner choice (particularly marriage).  For a young good guy like Athlone (his post yesterday on the Femininity thread was a remarkable view of the situation from a long term thinking young man), does it make sense for him to get into an LTR with the frat-hopping high-number young women he’s seeing all around when he has no interests in hookups? Of course not.  And every guy who is careful in avoiding high number women is as much in his rights as women avoiding high number men.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But when I read Consumer Reports and find statistics about the reliability of a car, am I being insecure about car ownership? Perhaps, but so what? I don’t particularly care if it’s interpreted that way, as long as I don’t wind with a lemon that breaks down every road trip to LA. And do I need to know the specifics as to why a particular car is unreliable when I don’t particularly want to be a full-time mechanic?

      Haha well said! This is it exactly – why risk it?

      And every guy who is careful in avoiding high number women is as much in his rights as women avoiding high number men.

      Absolutely. The point is, we don’t get to tell other people how to select their mates. If a guy wants a virgin, fine, there are a few out there. (You may have to relocate.) But honestly, there are enough men and women not slutting it up that it shouldn’t be all that hard for people to find a partner with similar sexual history. I know several college women who are virgins (though unhappy about it) and others who have had a partner or two, who were boyfriends. It really makes sense for like to pair with like on this issue, I believe.

  • Lavazza

    Tom: “Abbot, guys like you who will dismiss a woman SOLEY based on her number, even if it is not very high is the biggest shame of them all…..You have some serious baggage dude.”
     
    In practice no man will learn a woman’s number as the sole information about her, so in practice there are no men dismissing women solely on their number.
     
    The subjective negative or positive worth of number apple to the subjective negative or positive worth of a something else orange is another question. This is done emotionally/intuitively or with a more dispassioned cost/benefit or chance/risk analysis. De gustibus non est disputandum.
     

  • Lavazza

    “And the exact cutoff will vary from guy to guy, but a good rule of thumb is: “not much more than the guy”.”
     
    And that is quite generous to women’s possibilities of “exploring” since most men will end up with women who are younger than them and therefor have a higher number than the guy had at the same age.

  • Abbot

    “will dismiss a woman SOLEY based on her number”
    .
    Now who does that? That is so silly and immature. Its rightly and acceptably one item in a spectrum of selection criteria and the only folks who do not want it to be part of that spectrum are promiscuous women, who, like everyone else, are acting on behalf of their own self interests.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    “However, telling her to go for a person she doesn’t find attractive is oppressive, just like telling a guy to go for an ugly chick or to chose pornography is oppressive and I think wrong.
     
    Oppression another word that is used in a different meaning that it has. Oppression means:
    The exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.

    Reality is not oppressive is reality, the chances of certain behaviors having bad consequences are pure facts. Really unless you plan to accompany your words with locking your friend on a tower you are just giving her a most needed reality check. If she doesn’t like it you can just apologize and tell them that on the future you will keep your words to yourself, but you are confusing the terms.

    I don’t need a man in my life

    If a man told me that he doesn’t need a woman on his life I will laugh on his face. This another feminist construct: that idea that needing a man is somehow “oppressive” we are social creatures and we need each other (straight, bi or homosexual). Even asexual people seek companionship without sex, so yeah if you don’t need a man (and you are straight) then you have been drinking the Kool aid waay to much. Normal people NEED other people, there is no shame on it. If you don’t need a man then you don’t need any kind of advice, because all you have to do is not get one and problem solved.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This another feminist construct: that idea that needing a man is somehow “oppressive” we are social creatures and we need each other…Normal people NEED other people, there is no shame on it.

      This is so important – we often feel shame when we need someone. Both women and men live in fear of being perceived as needy, when needing love and companionship is the most natural thing in the world! There’s no shame in it. Better that than manipulating someone to kill their love for you, even as you increase their insecurity and need for reassurance.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Lavazza,
    Ahh, I should have phrased that a little differently.
    “If your number is much higher than the guys you are interested in, then your number is probably too high”.  That’s more the sentiment I was meaning.
    .
    From the male perspective, it’ll vary, but a good chunk of guys will not feel comfortable if the woman has a higher number than him.  Again, this is for marriage type situation, For hookups, FWB or similar, it’s not as much of an issue.
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      From the male perspective, it’ll vary, but a good chunk of guys will not feel comfortable if the woman has a higher number than him.

      Research has consistently shown that men want sexual experience for a hookup, but will reject a woman with more sexual experience than they have for commitment.

  • Abbot

    “The whole virgin thing is red herring, used by certain individuals (who they are is pretty clear), to derail the discussion from the “dangerous” truths.”
    .
    This blog is littered with red herrings and derails, not to mention outright denials and anecdotal fantasies. This is clearly a manifestation of some real hurt and anguish. Its one thing to ween off from the cheap easy low hanging fruit of pseudo challenging sexual conquests; its quite another to face the prospect of diminishing interest in your entire being for not having done it soon enough.

  • Wayfinder

    And the exact cutoff will vary from guy to guy, but a good rule of thumb is: “not much more than the guy”

    I think this sums up the point quite well.

  • Lavazza

    ENY: “From the male perspective, it’ll vary, but a good chunk of guys will not feel comfortable if the woman has a higher number than him.  Again, this is for marriage type situation, For hookups, FWB or similar, it’s not as much of an issue.”
     
    Yeah, at least for a marriage as we normally understand with a greater economic risk for the man and to have children and raise them together. If neither party wants kids and/or the woman takes a bigger economic risk than the man, I guess the man will most often have the same attitude as to hookups, FWB or similar when it comes to the woman’s number. If I were to remarry to a substantially richer woman in her forties, I would not care one jot about her number. But maybe I am an outlier. Still, it’s just an intellectual exercise.

  • Geoff

    @Susan,
    “…the abstinence question is a dead end, and I personally wouldn’t bother to argue it.”
    .
    I’m obviously in violent disagreement with your position that men wanting a virgin at marriage is unreasonable. I believe it would benefit society (more betas getting a share of the marriage benefit=fewer mass murders at female aerobics classes), benefit individual men who marry virgins (greater chance she won’t cuckold you), and benefit the virgin women themselves (instead of turning 30 and being used up, she could be happily married to a nice beta man).
    .
    None of the above relies on my religious beliefs–I’m trying to appeal to logic and reason. I’m not attempting to shame women who come here with a high number–I’m merely telling them what’s demonstrably true: men prefer women with fewer partners. Why I’m an asshole for pointing out the obvious astounds me. Frankly, my advice to women with a high number isn’t to wish for a time machine–it would be to just stop increasing the number and making it worse.
    .
    So, to Ms. Walsh: You’ve asserted I’m being unreasonable by advocating women have fewer (or ideally no) sex partners before marriage–but WHY do you tell me it’s unreasonable? The “why it’s unreasonable” I would genuinely like to hear.
    .
    @ExNewYorker,
    “If your number is much higher than the guys you are interested in, then your number is probably too high.”
    .
    Well. Then how is being a virgin female a stupid idea and an unreasonable expectation by men?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff
      It’s unreasonable to expect women to be virgins for reasons I’ve outlined before. First and most importantly, women go 17 years, on average, between the onset of menses and marriage. Several hundred years ago, women were betrothed as soon as they menstruated. This delay in contemporary society is unprecedented in history. Women are sexual beings – our hormones course through us during our peak fertility years – which unfortunately, occur before most women marry!
      .
      Secondly, most people today do not believe that premarital sex is bad or wrong. You may not distinguish between relationship sex and casual sex, but many men do.
      .
      You are free to hold this standard – and it sounds like you are very happily married, so that’s great. But from a strategic point of view, holding out for a virgin is a tough sell. There just aren’t many around. And just as women cannot erase the sexual double standard, men cannot put that genie back in the bottle.

  • Plain Jane

    “It’s morally wrong to tell a person – “hey, look at yourself! You should chose people with similar to yours looks!”.
    *
    WHAT?!
    How is it “morally wrong” to tell someone that???

  • Mike C

    Some extremely flawed and biased study that shows that people with high numbers are more likely to cheat IS not a reliable source to make correct conclusions.
    .
    @Florence,

    Just curious, what is your basis for the statement “extremely flawed and biased”.  Do you have another study that shows differently?  Do you have some specific methodological criticism?  Or did you just make that up because you thought it sounded good?

  • Mike C

    Second, there is a group of women who already has a high number – I know *****several ***** women in the 25-50 range, and there are women who have commented here and proudly declared a number of 75 or even higher.


    @Susan,

    Just curious, and it really is more academic curiousity than anything else, but how do you square your statement against the numbers Lurky Lu posted:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/01/25/hookinguprealities/the-new-sex-math-probabilities-and-opportunities/#comment-28763

    According to those numbers, only 10% are at 11 and above, yet you mention you know *SEVERAL* (emphasis) in the 25-50 range.  Statistically, it would seem to be a low probability that the sample of women you know differs so much from the population.  My leaning would be that the numbers for the population that Lurky provided are basically a fiction.  The only other explanation is that you are encountering all the women who are the + 3 standard deviation on partner count.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      I confess I am not sure how to interpret all this data – from the CDC, GSS, etc., plus various studies quantifying who hooks up in college, how often, who’s a virgin, etc. All of these databases rely on self-reported data, but one can presumably adjust for that, and it still doesn’t change the general patterns.
      .
      I’ve mentioned that I have two different groups of women I meet with and am pretty close to. One is far more promiscuous than the other. The woman who used creative math to get her number from 30 down to 6 is in one group. And another woman in that group handed me her cell phone during brunch – I couldn’t quite make out the photo….oh wait, it was her bf’s penis tied up with a blue ribbon. a;lkdfja;ldk;lsakds;la So they’re a pretty wild bunch, and I’ve noticed that over four years, the more conservative women have become wilder under the influence of the others. Heavy drinking, casual hookups are the norm.
      .
      The other group is more conservative. Their numbers range from 0 to 10 or so, I would say. All of them want bf’s, and say so openly. Most of them are mostly holding out for good men, and feeling quite frustrated and marginalized. They’re basically keeping their fingers crossed that things will be different after college.
      .
      Both groups are equally attractive – with most women in the 6-8 range, I would say. Interestingly, they are all avid readers of HUS. I know this because they provide a running stream of feedback about specific posts. None of them comments here regularly – though a few in the first group showed up on a thread once. I find it surprising that both groups can relate to what I write – though it seems like with the promiscuous group they plan to implement my advice “soon” rather than “now.”
      .
      BTW, as you know, I came of age in the 70s and 80s, during which time I went to college, worked, went to b-school, and worked again. In that time, I would say that 80% of the women I knew socially had a sexual history similar to mine – a few boyfriends, and a few one-night stands. Nearly everyone married, and the ones that didn’t were very driven career women. Among my friends and acquaintances from this 10-15 year period, only one has divorced. So, based on my own personal experience, the data do not tell the whole story. At least not for educated women of my generation.

  • Plain Jane

    Geof, if American men want virgins at marriage (most likely because they themselves are virgins or close to it), then they are going to have get to these women when they are still VERY YOUNG.  That means perhaps a regression back to the practice of people marrying in their late teens, at the very latest early 20s.  For that to happen there would have to be an entire overhaul of the society from top to bottom.
    You are not going to get teens marrying succesfully when they themselves come from broken homes.
    Teens who marry successfully are incredibly mature and adultlike for their age.
    American teens are not, neither are their parents!
    Its a culture of perpetual childhood, and a dysfunctional one at that.

  • Mike C

    My promiscuous friend is not exactly “good looking”.
    ……
    For her the FWB is the only option to experience and enjoy sex with some of the more decent looking dudes.


    Florence, explain to me why someone who is “not exactly good looking” (your words) would expect to land a relationship with “decent looking dudes”.  If she wanted a relationship, shouldn’t she go for guys of similar caliber.  Now if her prerogative is to enjoy sex with guys who might not even want to be seen in public with her, that is her choice, but she certainly doesn’t get my sympathy.

    She also sees it as a compliment when a man agrees to sleep with her. It makes her feel attractive, wanted and sexy, especially if the man is good looking.


    Odds are it is dark, and he is thinking about someone else.  Just saying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Odds are it is dark, and he is thinking about someone else. Just saying.

      “Beauty is only a lightswitch away.”
      God, that line still makes me laugh. Sites like Bro Bible are great for crass humor.

  • Mike C

    @AnonF
     
    In my opinion, the “number” issue gets an amount of attention in the HUS comments that is far out of proportion to its importance in context of the blog’s purpose.
    .
    I’ve kind of tried to not debate/discuss it anymore.  I think the attention is because you’ve got “tom” on one side and a few guys on the other who just keep repeating the same points over and over and over and over and over and over again.
    .
    I think it’s a very small number of women who’ve had enough partners to have a significant and noticeable effect in turning away potential LTR’s/husbands in the secular/liberal college-educated dating scene. Anecdotally, I’ve heard/seen very few guys go out of their way to even ask or otherwise find out a woman’s number.
    .
    I think it depends.  As I’ve admitted, I was a complete loser with women until 22, but I can say from 22 to 37, I have dated/”hung out” with many, many, many women (only had sex with a fraction of them due to a variety of reasons including ineptitude when the opportunity was on a silver platter and actually having a conscience but I digress).  Out of all those women, I *ONLY* discussed sexual history with 2.  The two just so happened to be the girl I married and ended up divorcing, and the one I’ll probably be marrying sometime soon.  My point is for casual dating/casual flings guys aren’t going to ask because they don’t care.  I’m guessing the subject does come up more then 50% of the time for girls that are possibly “wife material”.
     
    Now the girl I’m with now actually had a one-night stand for many of the reasons Florence’s friend does them repeatedly.  I’ll admit when I first learned that it bothered me tremendously.  Came close to having me rethinking getting serious with her AT THE TIME.  Now truth be told, if I had walked for that reason IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MY LOSS, although by the same token it would have been her loss as well.  Now if she had gone on a 1-year cock binge to “feel sexy, validated, in control” I have no doubt we wouldn’t be together today.
    .
    Being notoriously promiscuous via locker room/frathouse stories or a Duke list incident will hurt a woman’s chances, but I see little correlation in real life between women who get disdained by guys for being slutty and actual partner counts.
    .
    That is probably true, but because it appears that most women do lie.  A guy can’t disdain what he doesn’t know.
    .
     

  • Mike C

    And you dont think we men are not ego tripping when we bed mulitple women?….It is not all about the sex with men either.
    .
    Can’t resist….but read the second sentence a few times.  If a guy really wrote the sentence he would say “us” instead of “men”.  The use of “men” in this context gives the distinct impression the writer is describing a different group.  I probably should just leave it alone but this charade is just ridiculous.

  • Mike C

    The reality is that a low number is a first order approximation for “impulse control” and “long term” thinking. And the exact cutoff will vary from guy to guy, but a good rule of thumb is: “not much more than the guy”.   As your average guy isn’t an alpha cad, most guys will tend to have relatively low numbers. In today’s SMP, it really behooves a long term thinking guy be very careful in their ltr partner choice (particularly marriage).


    At the risk of belaboring this discussion, I just wanted to highlight that this is really it distilled into common sense in a nutshell.

  • Jess

    It may not surprise anyone to learn i totally oppose the message in this post.
    Sex is a hugely powerful instinct and force in most peoples live and for millenia, womens sexuality has been under harsh control of relgeious or violent males.
    .
    Thus women gaining control over their preferences and choices really is empowerment in every sense of the world.
    Only 3 generations ago women simply didnt have this choice.
    Now they have had the choice look how things have changed.!
    .
    There is talk of Egypt eventually becoming a hard line islamist state to due to possible future power vacuums. So emmigrate there if you want like a society with reduced female freedoms.
    .
    I and almost all my friends can recount wonderful flings that really were empowering at the time. They gave confidence, orgasms, self worth, esteem. I know women who were so on a high from a postive sexual experience they went for a job they were scared of and got appointed.

  • Jess

    there is currently a documentary in the uk called big gypsy wedding.
    its proff feminism is still needed.
    these girls are living the life as dictated by some of the guys here.
    they are strictly chaporoned.
    they are removed from school by parents.
    they have no aspirations
    they marry young
    they have children young
    60% yes thats 60% have reported severe domestic violence.
    thats a tradational patriachal society you see.
    whilst some girls defended there travelling community rules you could see the sadness in thier eyes.
    ‘i dont need to go to school cos im only gonna be a houswife’-so sad
    maybe if the guys here were to live a few weeks as a woman i wonder if they would change their views.
    every human, normal physical limiations notwithstanding, has a right to choice, respect, education and freedom.
    so there is no scam here and such a pity to see a platform being offered to men who wish to roll back years of humanist progess.

  • Plain Jane

    *”I think that even many of the “some men” do not care about a woman’s number if she will support them in style and allow them to sleep around.
    *
    @ Susan, “Allow them to sleep around! No way! That’s a terrible tradeoff. Perhaps women will be forced to make it. I doubt it, though. Attractive promiscuous women will do just fine. They will succeed in marrying successful men they never would have dated in college.”

    Susan, I’m glad you tell it like it is and put things to rest here.  The above point has already been made by me and several other women here more than once but the men keep wanting to “debate” it and tell us its a “hamster wheel” thing.
    There is no debating this.
    Its just fact.
    I’m glad that at least the men here accept your authority.
    Which leads to this;
    “Comments like this make me realize how different male and female friendships are. Men have a way of communicating that is extremely direct, and that frankness diffuses awkwardness or tension. They just put it out there. Women do not do this. They try to put things in the best possible light, and unfortunately, that often means either feeding into a delusion, ignoring the elephant in the room, or failing to provide feedback that might be useful. I don’t know what the solution is – but I do think that women would benefit from more direct communication styles.”
    *
    I agree 100%.
    However, ironically enough weren’t some men here saying that women with direct communicative styles are somehow not “feminine” enough?!
    At the same time they will pull their hair (whats left of it) out over trying to dicepher the meaning behind their wives and gf’s non-direct communication styles?

  • AnonymousF

    “A guy can’t disdain what he doesn’t know.”
    This isn’t applicable to the cases I’m talking about. At least its unlikely to be applicable because it was enough of a “small world” situation that many could do the arithmetic I did. It’s just that the women involved didn’t “present” as promiscuous so that wasn’t their rep. Conversely a woman can be labeled slutty across a whole social group without sleeping with a single guy, purely based on one night’s publicly sloppy behavior.

    As for seriousness of relationship, I see practically zero bf/gf relationships among my peers (mid 20’s to mid 30’s) that aren’t serious. Maybe this is an age or geography thing, but for us it’s almost always “serious” when you call the person a boy/girlfriend and put the relationship on Facebook (yes I did just seriously invoke Facebook). In fact bf/gf at my age almost seems to lead to engagements more often than breakups. I might be biased though, given that every engagement ends up costing me a bunch of $$$ while the breakups only require me to buy a couple cocktails :) Anyway, sex history quizzes don’t seem to be common in my neck of the woods. Personally, my fiancee never asked. Not that my number would raise any eyebrows anyway.

    Anyway, I don’t really want to belabor this either. I just think it’s fairly low down the list of reasons people have trouble finding partners, and the back and forth, as you said, tends to repeat.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @AnonF
      Are you in the Midwest by any chance? I have heard quite a few reports that the SMP is markedly different between the coasts.

  • Sox

    That’s not correct. I am totally against the war in Afghanistan. SOX says that American troops are there to help enforce equality. The idea is great, but the American approach is totally wrong and this is why pretty much the WHOLE world is now against America. How would you feel if someone comes to you from a superior nation and puts a gun to your head and tells you to start believing something opposite of what your fathers, grandfathers and your religious community ever taught you?

    .
    I don’t want to get into a policy/strategy debate here.  If you think NGOs and development organizations alone could do the job, you’re solely mistaken.  I’m not saying I necessarily agree with the war or even the US and its allies’ approach.  I never said troops were there to enforce equality.  Nor am I toting the party line that its all about freedom and democracy and yea! A culture/civilization needs to develop to a certain point to be able to enjoy certain liberties and liberal ideas, and to get there you need rule of law.  Fault our strategy all you want, and even the war, but in these situations its boots on the ground that are doing the grunt work that actually DOES contribute to an environment conducive to fostering equality and individual freedoms.  Anyway, that’s my piece.  Your sentiment is something I hear a lot from the idealistic crowd, especially here in DC.  It’s admirable but not entirely realistic IMO.  I spent most of my college career studying nation building and counter-insurgency strategy- you need soft power AND hard power in those kinds of situations.
    .
    @Jess

    these girls are living the life as dictated by some of the guys here.

    How so? I’d really appreciate it if you and some of the other female commenters here would actually quote us accurately.  Stop twisting our words, stop inferring.  If you don’t understand what we mean, just ask.  Don’t make crap up.

  • Sox

    Damnit…I keep screwing up the quotes.  Mrs. Walsh, could you help me out?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sox
      Happy to help out, but please don’t call me Mrs. Walsh. I’d rather you call me Susan, or even Shirley.

  • Mike C

    Men have a way of communicating that is extremely direct, and that frankness diffuses awkwardness or tension. They just put it out there. Women do not do this.


    Generally speaking, we don’t personalize truth-telling.  From a male point of view, I guess what seems odd is if you tell the blunt truth or call out someone’s bullshit, why is that interpreted as a personal attack.  Why get emotionally hurt or upset over someone just telling you the facts?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      From a male point of view, I guess what seems odd is if you tell the blunt truth or call out someone’s bullshit, why is that interpreted as a personal attack. Why get emotionally hurt or upset over someone just telling you the facts?

      Haha, that’s a perfect example! Such a male question! Women learn early on that to be popular requires being a people pleaser. It’s necessary for socializing with other girls, especially the Queen Bee, and it is very effective with boys. I don’t think there’s any real way around this – I think it’s hard-wired.

  • Aldonza

    A man’s value increases with age, a woman’s value decreases with age. These are biological facts.
    So the man in question currently has little in the way of assets. As the years accumulate, so does his bank account. As a woman’s years accumulate… well, no comment.
    A poor, young man would do well to get a pre-nup

    .
    Right, so he gets all the “value” of her youth and beauty and she gets none of his value in return?
     

  • Jess

    dear sox,
    oh contraire, nothing was exagerated. i have seen people here advocate virgins marrying, a return to a chaste society, the advocation of ‘slut shaming’, the use of derogatory insults, critisiscm of leading feminists and feminism itself.
    .
    people have debated number thresholds, cheating probability, divorce rates, you name it… anything that essentially wants a return to a traditional 50’s stlye sexual morality.
    .
    Apart from the fact it will never happen, one shouldnt want it to happen. People often have rose tinited specs when they thijnk of the past. The divorce rate was lower! Great! Kind of hides the misery behind those marriages methinks.
    .
    A modern western person would struggle to live in the 50’s with limited technology and no internet, x box, etc but women in particular just couldnt cope with the oppression. that literally is the suggestion here. i mean what do you think ‘no sex before marriage’ actually entails?

  • Aldonza

    So what Russian men or other men like them think about me or American women in general is irrelevent.
    .
    My experience with Russian men is mostly limited to managing them on off-shore projects.  They’re the toughest culture to deal with as a female technology professional.  I’d always thought that Indian culture was much more sexist, but apparently modern Indians have managed to keep their cultural beliefs out of the workplace, especially when dealing with the US.  Even Latin techs can work with a female project manager.  The Russians?  Forget it.  I had to feed instructions through a male co-worker to get them to hear a word I said.
    .
    Do I care that they might not find me attractive as a mate?  I’m not losing any sleep over it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do I care that they might not find me attractive as a mate? I’m not losing any sleep over it.

      LOL!

  • Sox

    Do I care that they might not find me attractive as a mate?  I’m not losing any sleep over it.
    I wasn’t implying they’re any type of authority on the matter; they were just an interesting example because they’re more critical of American women than most outside the middle east.

  • Aldonza

    As a note on the subject of foreign women, I would like to say that, while I’m more interested in foreign women than American women, one should always be cautious about foreign women. If you use money to attract women, you just end up with women interested in money, which, in a volatile economy, may not be the best way to do things. American women are used to dealing with men with money, so they look for other markers of status.
    .
    I find it amusing that so many men castigate women for being golddiggers and having hypergamous urges…while also carrying the idea that foreign women are somehow immune to the same “urges” as American women.  The only difference is really that some behaviors are punished harshly by other cultures, and the foreign women who hold the most appeal for these men have the least economic options.  A gorgeous 19yo Thai girl does not fall in love with a 55yo US Navy pensioner.  She’s just pragmatic about her options.  But the 55yo guy had better be prepared to take on the economic burden of that girl…and her extended family for the privilege.  He also needs to be as un-romantic as she is about the arrangement.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Aldonza

      A gorgeous 19yo Thai girl does not fall in love with a 55yo US Navy pensioner. She’s just pragmatic about her options. But the 55yo guy had better be prepared to take on the economic burden of that girl…and her extended family for the privilege.

      Another great comment about the reality of expat “love.” Yes, these men are often quite surprised to learn what is expected of them.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/25/world/asia/25iht-thai.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

      “For some ladies it is just money, money, money,” he said. “Getting married has become a business more than love. People want to improve their social status. Sometimes these ladies spend the husband’s money, use it all, then he’s cut out. There are many cases like that.”

      Even though many men are retired and living on a fixed income, they are expected to help support their wives’ extended families, beginning with a dowry of several thousand dollars.

  • Geoff

    @Jess,
    Please do not evade the point by drawing parallels between people espousing a denial of their base impulses and waiting until marriage with THE DARK AGE MIDDLE EASTERN MUSLIM COMMUNITY!  Why not just call us Nazis and be done with it?
    .
    No guy here is advocating FORCING women avoid pre-marital sex.  We’re saying it’s the smart move for you IF you want to marry the highest value guy you can get.  If you can’t tell the difference between advocacy and patriarchal slavery, I invite you to have pre-marital sex with yourself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I invite you to have pre-marital sex with yourself.

      This cracked me up. I’m finishing my second glass of wine – that could be the reason.

  • Plain Jane

    “From a male point of view, I guess what seems odd is if you tell the blunt truth or call out someone’s bullshit, why is that interpreted as a personal attack.  ”

    From a female point of view, I guess what seems odd is if you tell the blunt truth or call out someone’s bullshit, why is that interpreted as “unfeminine”???.  

  • Geoff

    @Susan,
    Thank you for your response:
    .
    s-First and most importantly, women go 17 years, on average, between the onset of menses and marriage. Several hundred years ago, women were betrothed as soon as they menstruated. This delay in contemporary society is unprecedented in history. Women are sexual beings – our hormones course through us during our peak fertility years – which unfortunately, occur before most women marry!
    .
    G-I don’t deny any of the above, BUT I don’t see where any of the above has any bearing on a woman diluting her value (to men) by increasing the number of her sex partners pre-marriage.  And YOU YOURSELF have gone on record several times that women would do well to recognize that a woman with fewer partners is valued more highly than a woman with many.  I don’t understand why arguing for fewer becomes unreasonable when fewer becomes zero.  I’m not demanding that as the only option, I’m saying I believe you’re giving a mixed message–is the message from HUS “don’t be a slut, but don’t be a virgin either, ladies”?
    —–
    S-“Secondly, most people today do not believe that premarital sex is bad or wrong. You may not distinguish between relationship sex and casual sex, but many men do.
    .
    G-You assert that men DO distinguish between relationship sex and casual sex.  In fact, you’re saying that men are more willing to accept a higher number (exactly how much higher, TBD) of sex partners if based on relationships than a smaller number of sex-only hookups.  I base my assertion on over 100 alphas I’ve known throughout my life who do not want high numbers in a wife, period.  I can’t help wondering what do you base your assertion on.
    ———–
    S-“You are free to hold this standard – and it sounds like you are very happily married, so that’s great. But from a strategic point of view, holding out for a virgin is a tough sell. There just aren’t many around. And just as women cannot erase the sexual double standard, men cannot put that genie back in the bottle.
    .
    G-I suppose I have to reiterate again.  I’m not holding that virginity is the only option–I’m holding that virginity is the highest value a woman will ever have, IF you accept that lower = better.  Which I think you’ve said a few times. 
    ————–
    Not trying to troll or beat a dead horse.  I’m just completely bewildered that you’d concede lower = better but get ticked off at me for taking that to its logical conclusion and saying ergo, virginity = best.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      I don’t understand why arguing for fewer becomes unreasonable when fewer becomes zero. I’m not demanding that as the only option, I’m saying I believe you’re giving a mixed message–is the message from HUS “don’t be a slut, but don’t be a virgin either, ladies”?

      This is an insightful and fair question. I suppose the message boils down to:
      “If you act like a slut it will make you feel like crap and get you labeled as being unworthy of long-term commitment. Restrict yourself to sex in monogamous loving relationships, which can be rewarding, meaningful and healthy.”
      .
      I believe that the above strategy provides the maximum benefit to women during that 17 years before marriage, and gives them an opportunity to develop relationship skills without restricting the pool of available men very much. There is nothing wrong with remaining a virgin, and I respect any woman who chooses to do so. However, I have heard reports from women virgins on this site – both based in NYC as it happens – to know that it’s an absolute non-starter for 99% of guys. Both of those women experienced it as a deal breaker on numerous occasions. Obviously, YMMV, and location is a key consideration.
      .
      Virginity may be best from a man’s point of view, but in terms of the eligible bachelor pool, it gives women little to no competitive advantage. The numbers just aren’t there. For the record, I’m not ticked off or angry at all – sorry if I came off that way. I just think the virginity question is OT here in general – as we have very few virgins in the house who are committed to remaining that way. I won’t ever reach the point of recommending it as a sound strategy with a good ROI.

  • Abbot

    “I and almost all my friends can recount wonderful flings that really were empowering at the time. They gave confidence, orgasms, self worth, esteem. I know women who were so on a high from a postive sexual experience they went for a job they were scared of and got appointed.”
    .
    Awww…its so nice to be part of a very small group of like-minded externally-directed people who get their self worth from attaining something so rare and rewarding and that requires so much effort – that elusive sexually willing male . Good for you and your little gaggle of friends. Keep those phone numbers for when its time to have a family.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know women who were so on a high from a postive sexual experience they went for a job they were scared of and got appointed.”

      Well, that’s an interesting job search tip. Were they still flushed and sweaty? Did they proceed to bang the new boss? A woman who needs a casual hookup to psych herself up for a job interview is…..not OK. Heaven forbid she should ever have to make a presentation to the Board!

  • Abbot

    “From a woman’s perspective (if you care about that), intense orgasm can indeed make you feel high and wonderful for quite a long while after.”
    .
    Thus, keep those phone numbers. Those interactive sex toys [aka men in most circles] may be your salvation one day.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Aldonza,
    .
    ” I would like to say that, while I’m more interested in foreign women than American women, one should always be cautious about foreign women.”
    .
    Are you a lesbian?

  • terre

    I do have to say I’m now skeptical enough that a woman who tells me she’s only had “relationship sex” gets a scoff at best. Women have every incentive to pretend that a guy who strung them along for a few months was her “boyfriend”. None of them want to think they got played.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women have every incentive to pretend that a guy who strung them along for a few months was her “boyfriend”. None of them want to think they got played.

      You’re right, that does happen all the time. However, if a woman has a low number, by your definition, that’s obviously preferable to a woman who’s had many “relationships.” You cannot get away from the number.

  • Geoff

    @Terre,
    I’m with you.  I’m astounded that women not only think men fall for that bullshit, but get pissed off at me for telling them that men don’t.

  • terre

    I’m also not particularly bothered about being marginalized by more ‘reasonable’ commentators. Men are in a way the buyers of their own progeny, and if they’ve failed to lay down the law as men, women will give them a terrible market of goods in return. Female and male interests are in constant, dichotomous tension. Again, not a fact that’s particularly conducive to romance, but there it is.
    .
    If men in educated liberal circles are fine with getting down on one knee for men who’ve had other partners, it’s precisely because they’ve learned to inoculate themselves against the aggrandizing portion of their brains telling them it’s wrong, that it makes no sense and is a terribly humiliating thing to boot. Women decide, after all: if all women have slept around, then yes, a man’s hand is basically forced. And when divorce eventually strikes, the happy-go-luckiness of many of these lib men won’t save them.

  • Abbot

    “None of them want to think they got played.”
    .
    You lay in the bed you make

  • terre

    “on one knee for women”* (although the original typo holds a certain talk radio charm)

  • terre

    Bringing foreign students from oppressed third-world countries and exposing them to the western standards of living and to our moral values thereby allowing them to create a message for themselves is a much more powerful way for them to change things in their own countries when they go back.
    .
    I’ve lodged with Saudi students before, and I’m not sure if “exposing them to […] our moral values” has quite the effect you think it does. They quite earnestly saw England as a land of prostitutes and degenerates.

  • Abbot

    “None of them want to think they got played.”
    .
    Or want you to think that either. They know its hard for a man to respect a woman who can’t avoid being pumped and dumped by his peers
    .
    “I’m astounded that women not only think men fall for that bullshit, but get pissed off at me for telling them that men don’t.”
    .
    Just one indication among many that some women have long-standing contrived images of men that do not exist. Could have been the romance novels or Hollywood or general media bombardment.  In spite of their intelligence and maturity, there are some aspects of their psyche that never get past the age of 12.

  • Abbot

    “But I only have relationship sex.”
    .
    Oh. okay, so you remember their names. Be sure they correlate with the numbers.

  • Abbot

    “They quite earnestly saw England as a land of prostitutes and degenerates.”
    ,
    Well, that’s a bit of common ground.

  • AnonymousF

    @Susan
    I’ve spent multiple years since age 18 in both the liberal Northeast and in the Midwest. I’ve attended schools (college and/or grad) in both regions and worked full time in both. I lived and worked down South as well, but only briefly, and spent most of my time there with “expats” from out of state.

    I think the Midwest SMP has a faster marriage track, even for the highly educated. And maybe less shopping around by both sexes, dunno. But in other cultural aspects they seem similar.

  • Aldonza

    ” I would like to say that, while I’m more interested in foreign women than American women, one should always be cautious about foreign women.”
    .
    Are you a lesbian?

    .

    While I admit to finding Monica Bellucci, Sofia Vergara…and that girl at work who bears a striking resemblance to Shannon Elizabeth extremely attractive, and I may have kissed a girl or two and liked it, I find that I like men too much to actually leave and play for the other team.  Besides, bitches be crazy.
    .
    I’m merely a victim of bad editing of post quotes.

  • Abbot

    “comes the to US, sheds her niqab as fast as you can say “sex and the city” and does all the stuff she’s legally not allowed to do in Saudi – which is just about any and everything.”
    .
    More reason US immigration laws should be relaxed. Saves men here the trouble of going overseas for wild exotic variety before marriage.

  • Lavazza

    Susan: “Attractive promiscuous women will do just fine. They will succeed in marrying successful men they never would have dated in college.”
     
    Without lying? And doing fine by becoming good wifes and mothers rather than just succeeding in getting married?
     
    I have been reading this blog for some months and I have never seen any of these women or their husbands posting.
     
    If you think this is the case, why are you suspicious about the poster Tom?
     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lavazza

      Susan: “Attractive promiscuous women will do just fine. They will succeed in marrying successful men they never would have dated in college.”

      Without lying? And doing fine by becoming good wifes and mothers rather than just succeeding in getting married?

      Sorry, I should have been clearer. Doing fine here means getting married, period, and most, though perhaps not all will lie about their number. I suspect that most women will fess up to single digits – but you won’t find many willing to go over 9 if asked. So my advice, and my disagreement with Tom – stays the same. I’d also add that even if women can get away with it – lying is a terrible way to begin a life with someone. And having had a lot of casual sexual experiences, will, in my view, rob you of self-esteem, which impact your ability to have a good relationship in the future. In other words, I still strongly caution women about having sex for any reason other than genuine emotional intimacy.

  • terre

    Reposting this because I’ve quoted from it liberally and because it so perfectly encapsulates my opinion:
    .

    How little we know our sexual selves, and how much less we know with each passing day as we are enjoined to accept ever more bizarre permutations of sexual love (or “love”) as perfectly normal, perfectly healthy.  There is somewhere in our fascination with all these permutations, most of which are useless except as fillips to a jaded appetite, evidence that we have completely lost sense of the place that sex has in a healthy life.
     
    We lead adolescents right up to the point of intercourse having taught them nothing more than how to “protect” themselves with a thin layer of rubber and some hormone pills – anything more would be too judgemental, and we loudly excuse our shameless counsel by asserting that they’d just do it anyway.  By even cursory reflection we must realize that we are doing nothing at all to prepare their minds for this experience – though hardly anyone would suggest that the psyche of an adolescent can easily cope with the vulnerabilities and misjudgements of an early sexual relationship.  We are also abdicating our responsibility to take seriously their moral development, and substituting a misleading practicality in its stead.  It is considered an act of miraculous forbearance (or an indication of social incompetence) if our children wait until college before having their first sexual encounter.
     
    It is no surprise then that many adults (or quasi-adults) spend their twenties in a series of misguided relationships with the strange belief that what they are doing is perfectly normal, perfectly healthy:  spending lots of time pursuing sex (or figuring out what to do after the initial euphoria of sexual exploration has palled) and spending very little time learning about the nature of mature love, which in the popular imagination is a more or less amicable couple who do not egregiously cheat on each other.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan: “Attractive promiscuous women will do just fine. They will succeed in marrying successful men they never would have dated in college.”
    *
    @ Lasagna: “I have been reading this blog for some months and I have never seen any of these women or their husbands posting.”

    —-
    That’s because they are doing “just fine”!
    Happy married people are too busy living their lives to engage in online banter, unless its part of the job, like Susan. Besides the blog master herself, and 1 or 2 other commenters at most, the rest of us on here are unhappy singles.
    Face it.
    We’ve got the time.
    LOL.

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane: I don’t know. Married mothers with young children spend quite some time on the net.

  • Plain Jane

    They are not on Susan’s blog, which is what you were talking about.

  • Lavazza

    Plain Jane: So then we cannot say much about neither the question if they exist or not, nor, if they exist, their reasons for not commenting.

  • Florence

    @ Mike C
    “Florence, explain to me why someone who is “not exactly good looking” (your words) would expect to land a relationship with “decent looking dudes”.  If she wanted a relationship, shouldn’t she go for guys of similar caliber.  Now if her prerogative is to enjoy sex with guys who might not even want to be seen in public with her, that is her choice, but she certainly doesn’t get my sympathy.”
    …..
    As I said, she says that she doesn’t want a monogamous relationship, a marriage or in general a man in her life. She also says that she is bisexual. However, she does want a good hook-up and she wants is continuously. I just have a feeling that she might eventually want to settle down, but I cannot make such assumptions, when she says the opposite.

  • Florence

    @ Steph R.
    “Normal people NEED other people, there is no shame on it. If you don’t need a man then you don’t need any kind of advice, because all you have to do is not get one and problem solved.”
    ……..
    Well said. I agree there. She says she doesn’t need a monogamous relationship to be happy and that she is not looking for one anyway. However, I have observed situations where she has said that by accepting sex with her, a man has made her feel wanted and attractive and this is what has lead me to think weather the real issue is a self-esteem problem. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. Her life is her choice.

  • Florence

    @ Mike C
    “Just curious, what is your basis for the statement “extremely flawed and biased”.  Do you have another study that shows differently?  Do you have some specific methodological criticism?  Or did you just make that up because you thought it sounded good?”
    ………
    I can point out a number of ways how this study is flawed and thus misleading. I’ve had a few courses with SPSS, SAS, R, and other statistical software. This study is plaqued by confounding (under reporting, selection bias, SE status, sample size, etc). In addition, the retrospective study design used is extremely inefficient, when trying to predict future outcomes. According to this design, a woman could have married as a virgin, but still had a few partners, meaning she cheated with multiple people. This does not give an accurate idea, when one is trying to decide whether a woman is marriage material based on her number only.
    .
    There is a number of studies that examine what causes people to cheat in a relationship. A person with a cheating history is more prone to cheating again. A number of different “relationship problems” are also linked with cheating.

  • Florence

    @ SW

    The guy I dated was fun and good looking, but not serious and not committed enough, which resulted in me breaking up with him. He was sticking around, but was doing the minimum to impress me and displayed low levels of commitment besides the intimate exclusivity. I felt like I was being taken for granted.

    I think this is extremely common. It’s the agreement to date with very little effort or intimacy. Women understandably feel gratified in the short-term because they’ve gotten into a relationship, but they then feel dissatisfied or taken for granted, and realize there’s little value in “halfwaying it.”
    ………..
    It is not too hard for a man to agree to be exclusive or in a relationship, but as the relationship drags on and they do the bare minimum, you wonder if you’re actually in a relationship or in an FWB type of thing. I’ve always wondered if there is a way to prevent a man from turning into a complete sloth, after you give him the goods…

  • Abbot

    “I’ve always wondered if there is a way to prevent a man from turning into a complete sloth, after you give him the goods”
    .
    Hard to prevent when he is surrounded by women who embrace a birth-control culture.

  • Florence

    @ ABBOT
    “Hard to prevent when he is surrounded by women who embrace a birth-control culture.”
    ………
    Typical male excuse! Look, it’s not me!! It’s the environment that makes me be this way….!!! LOL

  • Abbot

    For nearly the past fifty years, the foolishly embraced artificial and unnatural environment has caused men and women to behave unnaturally. Unintended consequences much?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For nearly the past fifty years, the foolishly embraced artificial and unnatural environment has caused men and women to behave unnaturally. Unintended consequences much?

      That’s it in a nutshell. What a mess we have wrought.

  • terre

    You’re right, that does happen all the time. However, if a woman has a low number, by your definition, that’s obviously preferable to a woman who’s had many “relationships.” You cannot get away from the number.
    .
    I’m not sure if you’re speaking about me or men in general? As for the latter, I would say that yes, that’s right. But one can really overstate the ability the average man has to dump a chick based on any criteria; many will simply grin and bear it. I have a feeling that for a lot of men, transitioning from spurious casual ‘relationships’ in their youth to serious monogamy brings about a gnawing anxiety, and they can’t identify precisely why.

  • terre

    Susan, I’m not really sure what you mean by “return on investment”. “Return” in what sense?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @terre

      Susan, I’m not really sure what you mean by “return on investment”. “Return” in what sense?

      In the sense that a woman gives up a lot during her peak years by being chaste, but does not materially increase the size of the pool of men who will consider her for marriage. A man may be delighted to learn that the woman he is interested in is a virgin, but most men do not require this. Therefore, a woman who holds out for many years is facing stiff competition from women who will have sex in a committed relationship prior to marriage.

  • Aldonza

    Well, that’s an interesting job search tip. Were they still flushed and sweaty?
    .
    Don’t knock it.  I know that when I’m having great sex I walk around with a certain glow and attitude that is like catnip to men (and women.)  I’m relaxed, in a good mood, and probably trailing happy pheromones in my wake.
    .
    That said, as we’ve noted numerous times, hooking up is not usually great sex.  And a woman who feels like she’s been used and tossed aside is unlikely to impress anybody with a “glow”.

  • Abbot

    “A woman who needs a casual hookup to psych herself up for a job interview is…..not OK”
    .
    Although contained to certain areas [thankfully], declining mental health and alcohol use among woman is becoming more obvious. 

  • Aldonza

    Hard to prevent when he is surrounded by women who embrace a birth-control culture.
    .
    Are you really proposing that life was better for everyone before reliable birth control?

  • Abbot

    “Are you really proposing that life was better for everyone before reliable birth control?”
    .
    The degree of whatever was “worse” then was much less widespread than the situation described by Florence and just about every subject on this website.

  • terre

     
    Are you really proposing that life was better for everyone before reliable birth control?
    .
    I do think one could reasonably make that case, yes. With birth control, one’s youth is better than one’s old age; without birth control, it’s the inverse.
     

  • terre

    I don’t really see why women are “hold[ing] out for many years” in the first place. One should marry young.

  • Abbot

    “That’s it in a nutshell. What a mess we have wrought.”
    .
    Fifty years ago, no one could see it as a hoax played on women so there is no blame. But now that we can look back and know why the mess happened, no one wants to budge; men going overseas notwithstanding. All we got is finger pointing, whining, shocking stubbornness, psychological issues and shaming men to accept this tenuous situation at best without condition. 

  • terre

    Abbot, “feminism” (or to put it better the feminist mindset) cannot be rolled back. As another writer once said, one of feminism’s greatest strengths is “its ability to profit from its own failures”. For women, it’s plus-plus either way: if feminist advances are made, so much the better; if not, it at least acts as a well-cloaked shit test to weed out supplicant males. One has to be either naive or a woman of tremendous character to adopt a stance against feminism.

  • Tom

    In practice no man will learn a woman’s number as the sole information about her, so in practice there are no men dismissing women solely on their number.
     
    _________________

    Trust me,there are men who will not even entertain the idea of entering into a relationship with a woman if he knows, she has been with x amount of men..

    Incert any number you want…….example 20

  • Abbot

    “I don’t really see why women are “hold[ing] out for many years” in the first place.”
    .
    Their window of consumption of cheap easy no-challenge base pleasure and attention that is deceptively supported by interactive sex toys [aka male humans] is small and closes quickly. Top that off with a consumer culture, right-to-entitlement brainwashing, alcohol and estrogen manipulation and you got an artificial and unnatural formula for “holding out.”

  • Abbot

    “One has to be either naive or a woman of tremendous character to adopt a stance against feminism.”
    .
    Funny how all three of those endearing traits are found widespread among women in less developed and more natural agrarian countries.

  • terre

    Trust me,there are men who will not even entertain the idea of entering into a relationship with a woman if he knows, she has been with x amount of men..
    Incert any number you want…….example 20
    .
    You’re missing their point. No one reviews a sheet of cards with partner numbers printed on them beside girls’ names. One “knows” a girl’s number just as one knows a great deal of other things about her. Hence, one never turns a girl down “solely on their number”.

  • Abbot

    “Hence, one never turns a girl down “solely on their number”
    .
    But promiscuous women do not want that even to be on the list of items for consideration. Why they are so adamant about this has never been disclosed.

  • Abbot

    “feminism” (or to put it better the feminist mindset) cannot be rolled back.”
    .
    But it is absolutely contained and can be detoured around with just a little effort. I believe feminists hate knowing that.

  • Tom

    @ mike C 
    Can’t resist….but read the second sentence a few times.  If a guy really wrote the sentence he would say “us” instead of “men”.  The use of “men” in this context gives the distinct impression the writer is describing a different group.  I probably should just leave it alone but this charade is just ridiculous.
    ____________________

    “WE” men is correct english moron
    Im really tied of your accusations mike that I must be a woman.. I sent Susan my facebook page, if she looked she knows

    Too bad mike, I bet your wife still thinking of her one night stand while she has her 30seconds of sex with you still bothers you eh?

    Tell me, what is the difference if she is thinking of one man or 15 others… Doesnt sound like you could handle it anyways….. Funny a guy could fall in love with a wonderful woman, not knowing her true number, but then later dump her because he finds out she had 10+ others.. Somehow Idont get how she is no longer wonderful.

  • Tom

    Susan, I agree that woman who stopped having sex after being loose for a while will more than likely be a good catch……Experience has taught her how she does not want ot be.

  • Abbot

    “Experience has taught her how she does not want ot be.”
    .
    In lieu of that, she would have come to the same conclusion If HUS was around ten years ago

  • Geoff

    @Susan,
    Thanks for the response, even if I disagree with you on a couple of points.  The first is, obviously, the benefit TO WOMEN to wait til marriage.  But I think we understand each other and aren’t going to change the other person’s mind.
    .
    Having said that, I wonder if I might convince you that waiting 17 years is NOT going to help women get the maximum quality/value guy they can get.  Don’t get on the carousel at all, but if you DO get on, don’t ride until you’re 32.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Geoff

      I wonder if I might convince you that waiting 17 years is NOT going to help women get the maximum quality/value guy they can get. Don’t get on the carousel at all, but if you DO get on, don’t ride until you’re 32.

      Yes, I’m with you there! Not sure if I’ve made the point recently, but I counsel women just out of college to make a beeline for men 25+. Don’t even mess around with guys the same age. There’s no reason a woman should delay finding a partner, and if she meets someone she wants to marry I would encourage her to do so. Of course, the delay in marriage is largely due to women getting more education, and I wouldn’t discourage a woman from doing that. But I might suggest making one’s relationship a priority by avoiding going into LDR mode if possible. So often couples are quite happy, but get derailed by the need for one or both to relocate. For women especially, starting over after a long relationship is difficult, due to the fertility expiration issue.

  • lurker76576

    @Shirley

    “BTW, as you know, I came of age in the 70s and 80s, during which time I went to college, worked, went to b-school, and worked again. In that time, I would say that 80% of the women I knew socially had a sexual history similar to mine – a few boyfriends, and a few one-night stands. Nearly everyone married, and the ones that didn’t were very driven career women. Among my friends and acquaintances from this 10-15 year period, only one has divorced. So, based on my own personal experience, the data do not tell the whole story. At least not for educated women of my generation.”

    You’re really just supporting Geoffs argument here. Only one of your friends from your generation divorced. Today is a bit different. When men see other men lose their kids and pay cheating wives, it makes men much more discriminate. Ironically “sexual empowerment” made virgins that much more valuable.

  • Florence

    @ Terre
    I don’t really see why women are “hold[ing] out for many years” in the first place. One should marry young.
    …………………
    I am sorry if I come off as rude, but who says that women “SHOULD” do X or “SHOULD” do Y. This century is over. Today, women are FREE to make their own choices. They can chose to marry young or they can chose to marry after they’ve completed their education and have found jobs that have given them some financial independence, so that in case of domestic violence and rape, they can walk off the marriage and be able to make a living on their own.
    I fully agree with Susan’s comment about the return on investment. I had thought about this myself from the age of 13 (when I got my first menstruation) until the age of 21 (when I became and adult). Those were already 8 years of waiting and observing the SMP. Did it increase my pool of men when I became and adult? Did it allow me to date more quality guys? Not at all. Men are so shallow that they only care about the girl’s looks. Thus whatever pool of men I had was strictly defined by my beauty, even now, at my mid twenties.I’ve absolutely never had a guy ask me about my number in real life, except here on this forum. I always ask the bfs for their numbers though and sometimes get sketchy answers. I don’t think my very first bf even realized that I was a virgin or not either and I doubt that he actually knows that I was….he never asked and I never told.

  • OffTheCuff

    I am sorry if I come off as rude, but who says that women “SHOULD” do X or “SHOULD” do Y. This century is over. Today, women are FREE to make their own choices.
    .
    Going to make one last try….
    .
    You are coming off as having an enormous chip on your shoulder. Nobody is denying your right, or women’s right, to make their own choices. However, the world automatically will deny your (delusional) right to be free of the consequences of those choices.
    .
    As I posted before, there is almost always a context of “If you want X, then doing Y is a good way to get you there” where “should” is just a shorthand for it, when we are talking about X. Do we really have to be this verbose to have a meaningful discussion? Is the word “should” verboten here?
    .
    I freely say here that men should learn game. That doesn’t mean I insist on a law forcing them to do so, or every man must, or they are awful if they don’t. It means that “if you want better success with women, learning Game is one of the best ways of doing so. Most men want success with women, ergo, they should learn a bit of Game.

  • Mike C

    Going to make one last try….
    .
    You are coming off as having an enormous chip on your shoulder. Nobody is denying your right, or women’s right, to make their own choices. However, the world automatically <strong>will</strong> deny your (delusional) right to be free of the consequences of those choices.



    My sense is there is a certain segment of women that really embraces the “grrrrrrrlllll power” concept and takes any advice, criticism, etc. as a guy’s attempt to “force” women to do X or Y.  Honestly, Florence this permeates many of your comments.  The discussion of your “chubby” friend was filled with the undertone of “how dare anyone” suggest what she should or shouldn’t do.  Fine.  Truly, you are entitled to whatever view you want to have, but I can say most strong men are going to find it unattractive and annoying.  Supplicating betas will gladly accept it, but the great irony there is in your core being you won’t find those men attractive.

    I’ve mostly stopped engaging PJ because she is on another planet, and fancies herself an expert on all sorts of things she has no idea about.  You on the other hand, strike me as basically a good, smart women who maybe has had some bad luck with men.  Seriously, get rid of that chip, and start to at least listen to what normal, regular guys like OTC are saying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve mostly stopped engaging PJ because she is on another planet, and fancies herself an expert on all sorts of things she has no idea about.

      Sigh. PJ is back in moderation, and I’ve deleted her most inane comments.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Tom

    That link just took me to my own Facebook page, which kind of weirded me out, haha. Are you my alter ego? Try the link again if you would, assuming that you care how you are perceived.

  • Florence

    @ SW

    I’ve mostly stopped engaging PJ because she is on another planet, and fancies herself an expert on all sorts of things she has no idea about.

    Sigh. PJ is back in moderation, and I’ve deleted her most inane comments.
    ……..
    I am not too happy that you did that. PJ might be wrong about certain things, but she is here to learn and so am I. She hasn’t offended anyone. By deleting her comments, you are sort of  biasing your forum to only what you and other people want to hear. If someone has a different point of view, they are on another planet?
    ……..
    Mike C
    Mike, thanks for your feedback. I am trying my best to make the SMP good for me and other women before and after me. I engage in feminism, although I haven’t had the time to read all the info on the internet about it, yet. When I see something that I feel is unfair, such as some misleading study on numbers, I feel that I have a moral obligation to raise my voice. It is easy to tell men what they want to hear in order to make them like/love you. I don’t however care anymore if men love or like me. I care for the respect of people who will one day benefit of the fact that I and other women had rose their voices. There is just so much unfairness and inequality in this world that can easily be fixed if people could just change their points of view. It’s a slow process and it requires strong committed people.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Florence

    I understand that you appreciate PJ. I have a soft spot for her myself. However, we have history. I have had to ban her before, and she has been here under a bunch of different names. Her biggest problem is going OT, in repeated and predictable ways. She is smart, and she does have some good points. I’ve tried to highlight some of them. FWIW, I don’t delete something because she disagrees with me. I don’t do that to anyone. I deleted some things because she was ranting about completely unrelated matters, like Roissy’s childhood.

    .

    If I don’t provide at least a semblance of discipline in the comment threads it will discourage others from commenting. They see I write a post about manipulation, click the comment button, and find elaborate descriptions of interracial dating, etc. PJ and I understand one another. I will let through any comment she writes that is germane to the conversation.

  • Anon-E-mous

    @Susan, @Florence:
    .
    Not to worry about PJ; she appears to be posting over at Badger’s place under this week’s moniker of “jk”, perhaps as a form of release for being moderated here.

  • Lupo

    @ TOm: <em>”And you dont think we men are not ego tripping when we bed mulitple women?”</em>
     
    Way to non-sequitur, man. Sure we do. We men also don’t go around calling it “empowerment” when we behave like horny chimpanzees. Only feminist ding-dongs are addle-pated enough to do such a thing.

  • Plain Jane

    @Florence, “I fully agree with Susan’s comment about the return on investment. I had thought about this myself from the age of 13 (when I got my first menstruation) until the age of 21 (when I became and adult). Those were already 8 years of waiting and observing the SMP. Did it increase my pool of men when I became and adult? Did it allow me to date more quality guys? Not at all. Men are so shallow that they only care about the girl’s looks. ‘”
    —-
    EXACTLY.
    This is probably why the guys here didn’t like me emphasizing functional, intact families.
    Men don’t want to admit that their focus is looks first.  If a woman is from a broken or dysfunctional family, thats OK with them as long as she looks good.
    Then they complain when she turns out to be a “drama queen”.
    Well, what did you expect?
    I also think my comments about broken families hit a little too close to home for the men here.
    Perhaps a trigger alert was in order.

  • jess

    “”I know women who were so on a high from a postive sexual experience they went for a job they were scared of and got appointed.”””

    “”Well, that’s an interesting job search tip. Were they still flushed and sweaty? Did they proceed to bang the new boss? A woman who needs a casual hookup to psych herself up for a job interview is…..not OK. Heaven forbid she should ever have to make a presentation to the Board!””
    .
    Yes susan, thats exactly what i meant…………
    .
    in fact she walked into meet the interview panel whilst still impaled on her male friend.
    her ability to multi task edged her the job.
    .
    i might have meant however that her fling gave her the confidence to apply for a job she previlously thought beyond her. those sex hormones and feel good chemicals really can elevate ones quality of life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      i might have meant however that her fling gave her the confidence to apply for a job she previlously thought beyond her. those sex hormones and feel good chemicals really can elevate ones quality of life.

      Those chemicals flood the system during and immediately after sex. They do not last into next week’s job search. Furthermore, one can suffer an emotional “crash” if the hormones that promote bonding are racing through one’s system and no reciprocal bonding takes place. This is precisely why very few women can enjoy habitual casual sex.

  • Wayfinder

    @Florence
    “Did it increase my pool of men when I became and adult? Did it allow me to date more quality guys? Not at all. Men are so shallow that they only care about the girl’s looks. Thus whatever pool of men I had was strictly defined by my beauty, even now, at my mid twenties.I’ve absolutely never had a guy ask me about my number in real life, except here on this forum.”

    Well recognizing your situation, I want to point out that the men you are describing are clearly not looking for commitment. A number of commenters here have stated that they do care about more than looks, and I’d expect that a man who is thinking of spending the rest of his life with you isn’t going be exclusively focused on looks.
    .
    (Perhaps I should make the distinction that some men can get married without making a commitment, just like some women can abandon their sexual partner when the rush wears off.)

  • Abbot

    “This is precisely why very few women can enjoy habitual casual sex.”
    .
    But to be told they cannot or the devastation resulting from unexpected negative outcomes may be due in part to the past century of female consumerist conditioning that makes it all seem oh so safe:
    .
    the self-conscious identification of women with consumerism after 1890 was distinctive, linked to the growing sense that consumption involved not only the purchase of goods but an entire way of life. Thorstein Veblen’s famous critique of conspicuous consumption highlighted the social display of leisured women, who wore the signs of their familial and class status. But it was not only as passive objects of display and emulation that women became the quintessential consumer. Rather that definition emerged as women experienced and responded to the new consumer economy.
    .
    Shopping was transformed from a functional activity of women into a form of leisure. Like attending a matinee, eating at a restaurant, or going to the beauty parlor—all new activities for women—shopping took place in a semi-public, commercial, and safe realm, an important consideration for women concerned about their respectability. 
    .
    Promoting the pleasures of looking and touching, merchants encouraged women to desire goods and be seduced by them. 
    .
    By the late 1920s, advertisers began to direct ads at women, with striking results.

    .
    http://www.albany.edu/jmmh/vol1no1/peiss-text.html

  • terre

    Isn’t Plain Jane the same commentator as that nut who said her problem was that she was only attracted to male models or something?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Isn’t Plain Jane the same commentator as that nut who said her problem was that she was only attracted to male models or something?

      Yup.

  • Plain Jane

    Nope.  Never said I was only attracted to male models.  I said I’m attracted to goodlooking men (who isn’t?).  That being said, I’m realistic enough to not limit my pool to 10s because I know I won’t get them.  I also said that the men of my own race and background who are my equals in the looks department don’t give me any play but I have found men of OTHER backgrounds who are HIGHER than me in looks DO respond favorably. 
    —-

    i might have meant however that her fling gave her the confidence to apply for a job she previlously thought beyond her. those sex hormones and feel good chemicals really can elevate ones quality of life.

    Those chemicals flood the system during and immediately after sex. They do not last into next week’s job search. Furthermore, one can suffer an emotional “crash” if the hormones that promote bonding are racing through one’s system and no reciprocal bonding takes place. This is precisely why very few women can enjoy habitual casual sex.
    —–
    Susan, if one has a good sexual experience with a man that they find very attractive, experienced some “chemistry” with, the high from that CAN carry on much longer than just an hour or 2.
    I’ve experienced this within the context of relationship.  Its possible that some women exerience it outside of that context.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Plain Jane,
    The problem is, that said Women are often pumped and dumped, as you most likely were a number of times. All the hormones in the world, even after having had them released by a hunk of a Man, will not save you if he only sees you as pump and dump material.
    .
    Of course you’ll never own up to any such thing happening to you – right?
    .
    LOL
    .
    O.

  • jess

    i think you have lost the thread on the idea of empowerment.
    Empowerment isnt just defined in terms of keeping as man.
    Its about choice, enjoying our bodies, following our preferences, experimenting, discovering our needs, ignoring prejeduces.
    Men dont tend to get this becuase they live in a socirty where they have that power automatically.

  • OffTheCuff

    Men dont tend to get this becuase they live in a socirty where they have that power automatically.
    .
    Can you do better than boilerplate feminism, Jess? High-status men have this power automatically. The vast majority of us regular guys do not. Feminism only looks upwards and says “I want that privilege”, it never looks downwards and says “I’m glad I don’t have that problem”.

  • Abbot

    “Its about choice, enjoying our bodies, following our preferences, experimenting, discovering our needs…”
    .
    …WITH MEN – the very same sex/gender that is hoped would understand its about this so-called “empowerment” and not be prejudiced at all, that all this “activity” is about some sort of growth that makes a woman “better” for herself and therefore that last man. Sort of tenderizing the meat so its tastier; more desirable.
    .
    Oh, how poetic. Does any rational woman expect men to buy off on that? Now its clear why men want to avoid such women beyond sex.
    .
    “Men dont tend to get this becuase they live in a socirty where they have that power automatically.”
    .
    Men have NO obligation or desire or need to get this for any reason, especially for a pathetic false one like “they have power automatically” which is what, the 12th excuse I have read on this blog for taking the cheap easy low hanging male gonad fruit constantly offered with no effort? If there is any needed “empowerment” its the desperate need to overcome the self-imposed shame of being addicted to abundantly available and easily acquired disposable men knowing full well that the vast majority of your male peers are unable to to the same with women.
    .
    Susan is right about parenting. Its a parenting issue. The cycle has to be broken. A man needs to marry a woman who, based on her past, can raise her daughters by example – unhypocritically; to not treat themselves and men this way and the meaningless word “empowerment” will never need not enter their otherwise intellectual vocabulary.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You’re really just supporting Geoffs argument here. Only one of your friends from your generation divorced. Today is a bit different. When men see other men lose their kids and pay cheating wives, it makes men much more discriminate. Ironically “sexual empowerment” made virgins that much more valuable.

    I want to cosign this. Is a lot difference now. I mean this girls are going with the same parties to the same guys that talk among themselves and see them going up the stairs to have their rounds with different guys, all of them take turns on them and in some occasions even at the same time. The guys that testified this will think that any woman that acts in any way remotely to one of their own hook ups did exactly the same thing the saw one to many times. You got female writers sharing their experiences on their own blogs that any man can and will read. The see the numbers of women cheating and bragging about it growing. I think is harder for a young guy this time and day to no internalize what he sees around when looking for prospect with a serious relationship. Thus a woman needs to do an extra effort when dating to show that she doesn’t belong to the same bunch. At that takes more than just no saying your numbers (I really doubt any guy will ask) but there are other signs and reading between lines they do and men are not picky when dealing with sex, but for a wife they are as picky as hell, specially given that they have so much to lose nowadays (divorce, alimony, their kids) So I agree that this 30 years had made a huge difference in the dating game.

  • Florence

    @PJ
    Nope. Never said I was only attracted to male models. I said I’m attracted to goodlooking men (who isn’t?). That being said, I’m realistic enough to not limit my pool to 10s because I know I won’t get them. I also said that the men of my own race and background who are my equals in the looks department don’t give me any play but I have found men of OTHER backgrounds who are HIGHER than me in looks DO respond favorably.
    …….
    PJ, sounds like you’re underestimating yourself. A woman has to feel beautiful for herself before men can perceive her as beautiful as well. The good news is that today Plain Janes can do a lot turn themselves into hot chicks! A woman could be an 8, but coming off as a 5 only because she is wearing the wrong clothes, glasses, no make up and boring hair. As soon as such a woman gets a makeover, she becomes an 8 and men start lining up. Stop wearing those ugly pants and put that sexy black dress on, girl!
    .

    Susan, if one has a good sexual experience with a man that they find very attractive, experienced some “chemistry” with, the high from that CAN carry on much longer than just an hour or 2.
    I’ve experienced this within the context of relationship. Its possible that some women exerience it outside of that context.

    .
    I’d say that it is still not worth it.The emotional pain from being pumped and dumped carries on much longer that the Oxycontin rush, unless of course you just go to some alpha guy (tall, strong, and hot) and tell him “Can we sleep with each other? I am just in for the experience and don’t have any expectations.” That’s a different story, but again, even the most experienced guy won’t give you mind-blowing sex the first time if he doesn’t know what you like. Most likely you’d feel disappointed and used as you’d realize that he is pumping you to only satisfy himself!
    In another situation, the alpha guy could be very caring in bed and you might start thinking that he actually cares about you, because he cared about you in bed. However, when he doesn’t call you the next day, you’d feel extremely hurt and disappointed.
    .
    I’ve been tempted to take a chance as alpha guys absolutely love flirting with me, but I get this feeling in my gut that tells me “he definitely knows the game better than me and has the potential to mess me up emotionally. Stay away!”. The best way to win is to just never gamble at the first place. Sometimes, I’ve wondered if I can win over a player if I played my cards right and got him hooked on me. A man can only be “hooked” if he can see value in a woman beyond her vagina. The alpha players usually don’t care whom they get turned down from because they see all women the same way – as vagina’s and disregard anything else, often including looks. They’ve got 10 other women that they’re playing with at the same time, so if one doesn’t catch the bait, the other one will. One minute he’d be all over you and shower you with his attention and compliments and make you feel special, then disappear briefly and you’d see him flirting exactly the same way as he did with you with another chick. You can often see this happening at bars. When I suspect a player hitting on me, I stick around until he buys me a drink, then I am off (That’s his punishment from me!). I might be wrong, but this is my observation of how the typical ‘player’ functions.
    -Florence

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve been tempted to take a chance as alpha guys absolutely love flirting with me, but I get this feeling in my gut that tells me “he definitely knows the game better than me and has the potential to mess me up emotionally. Stay away!”. The best way to win is to just never gamble at the first place. Sometimes, I’ve wondered if I can win over a player if I played my cards right and got him hooked on me. A man can only be “hooked” if he can see value in a woman beyond her vagina. The alpha players usually don’t care whom they get turned down from because they see all women the same way – as vagina’s and disregard anything else, often including looks. They’ve got 10 other women that they’re playing with at the same time, so if one doesn’t catch the bait, the other one will. One minute he’d be all over you and shower you with his attention and compliments and make you feel special, then disappear briefly and you’d see him flirting exactly the same way as he did with you with another chick. You can often see this happening at bars. When I suspect a player hitting on me, I stick around until he buys me a drink, then I am off (That’s his punishment from me!). I might be wrong, but this is my observation of how the typical ‘player’ functions.

      Florence, that’s a very honest and insightful observation not only of how players function, but how women function in relation to them. At least women like yourself, who are exercising self-discipline. Yes, players are tempting. Almost always. But engaging with them is irrational. Almost always.

  • Abbot

    There is nothing to lose on this thread; there is NO idea of “empowerment.” it is not an idea or even a concept. It has never and will never earn respect. Its humorous and goad worthy and the funniest thing the feminists ever manufactured because it is a tortured irony. Those who toss it around like some worthy concept obtusely deny that irony: that men who are claimed to have kept women from achieving the highly coveted “empowerment” are required to participate. But men are very accepting participants and embrace “empowerment” hungry women but will weed out the “empowered” when seeking wives; thus “empowerment” is a cruel hoax played on women and a source of humor for men. Men get the last laugh.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Florence,
    “The best way to win is to just never gamble at the first place.”
    .
    I just increased the odds that Florence gets married to a nice man by 495%. It’s so gratifying to have even a single women grok that alphas will say ANYTHING to get a virgin into bed. The only way to make SURE you’re not being played is to not have premarital sex.
    .
    And the only way to win at gambling is to leave the casino–even if, no, ESPECIALLY, if you’ve been playing blackjack for 10 years and have only a few chips left.

  • Jess

    Dear all,
    I aware I’m beginning to repeat myself but different people keep coming up with the same tired old knock downs.
    .
    Some men seem to think that me get the ‘last laugh’ by having sex with them. Newsflash- women REALLY enjoy sex. You know what- I think women like it more.
    You ever seen a sheet after a long session? How much fluid is from the guy?
    who screams the loudest?
    Who has the longest orgasms?
    Who has the ability of multiple orgasms?
    .
    Many here seem to think of women as poor wretched creatures being pumped and dumped. Look I have had good and bad sex. Most women have. Bad sex is pretty crap I agree but you have to kiss a few frogs you know? Great sex more than makes up for it. It really does.
    These so called victims have some fun then settles down.
    So what? You guys need to get over yourselves. Truly.

  • terre

    Jess, you do realize this blog was precisely intended for girls who feel they may have been “pumped and dumped”?

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Jess,
    Women can have orgasms?!

  • Jess

    Well the title says scam and I take issue with that.
    It also focuses on one womens experience of casual sex which wasn’t great for her and is projecting on all woman kind. It doesn’t add up.
    Generally speaking, providing the sex was ok, most women I know have good experiences from a varied sex life which likelyn included a few one nighters, a few flings and a few serious relationships.
    I’m not saying some girls don’t get their hearts broken. But men do too.
    It’s the price of a free society.
    But many women feel empowered, and are empowered, by the modern ethos.
    Even 40 years ago I would never had been able to defer motherhood, have protected sex, have multiple careers, engage in politics.
    Tomorrow, if I so choose I can have a lesbian affair and then marry a bridge.
    It’s loony I know but I have the freedom to do so. Without getting stoned or murdered or slandered. In some countries this isn’t the case. Ask the free thinking women there if they would like sexual and political empowerment.

  • terre

    I’m not particularly swayed by the argument for tossing human beings under a bus to achieve a “free society”.

  • Jess

    Geoff
    Yes I believe they can.
    But it rather depends on sex education, partner compatibility and the prevailing sexual-political culture.
    In traditional cultures female orgasm was very rare indeed.
    Still the case in some non western cultures, particularly tribal cultures that enforce the removal of the clitoris.
    In all cultures male orgasm was pretty much a definate.
    You see why some feminists really do see this from a power angle?
    It might make some men uncomfortable I guess but my sympthathy is going to gravitate to the 60 yo irish catholic grandmother who was beaten by her husband and never had an orgasm her whole life. You show me the male equivalent and I will dial down the bra burning thing.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I keep forgetting that no woman on history ever had an orgasm before feminism discover it and that having a male companion willing to share his life with yours for the rest of your life is a big turn off. Silly me.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    That’s fascinating. BTW–what’s a clitoris?

  • terre

    Some Houellebecq for Jess:

    From the amorous point of view Véronique belonged, as we all do, to a sacrificed generation. She had certainly been capable of love; she wished to still be capable of it, I’ll say that for her; but it was no longer possible. A scarce, artificial and belated phenomenon, love can only blossom under certain mental conditions, rarely conjoined, and totally opposed to the freedom of morals which characterizes the modern era. Véronique had known too many discotheques, too many lovers; such a way of life impoverishes a human being, inflicting sometimes serious and always irreversible damage. Love as a kind of innocence and as a capacity for illusion, as an aptitude for epitomizing the whole of the other sex in a single loved being rarely resists a year of sexual immorality, and never two. In reality the successive sexual experiences accumulated during adolescence undermine and rapidly destroy all possibility of projection of an emotional and romantic sort; progressively, and in fact extremely quickly, one becomes as capable of love as an old slag. And so one leads, obviously a slag’s life; in ageing one becomes less seductive […]

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Wow Geoff you don’t know what a Clitoris is?! I’m guessing you never took Mathematics on school! Tsk. Tsk?

  • Anonymous

    @Jess
    “Newsflash- women REALLY enjoy sex. You know what- I think women like it more.”

    I second that. I just can’t take the risk to marry someone who can’t blow my mind in the bedroom. It is kind of hard to admit, but i have to do it now. Otherwise we will all be lost.
    -Florence

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Stephanie,
    I’m being sarcastic to Jess’ posts. I am well aware of the intricacies of the clitoris. In fact, I am the C.L.I.T. Commander!

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I know, that much is obvious, I just wanted to play along.

  • jess

    yes yes very droll the both of you….
    .
    and terre…. a charming quote…..trouble is….its BS
    .
    becuase all my friends are in love with their husbands.
    I gather Susan is fond of hers too.
    I love my partner and still get a rush when I hear the key in the door.
    It makes me sad sometimes when it occurs to me that one of us will die leaving the other alone someday.
    So maybe people are not quite so ruined by having a couple of flings in their youth.
    I sometimes think less sexually sucessful people like to tell themselves that the others are tawdry and spent. I had an aunt a bit like that. She was a bitter and miserable old so and so. Couldnt fault her chocolate cake though. Gotta be fair there. I wonder if there is a correleation between attractiveness and cake baking ability. One for Caltech I think.
    .
    Stephanie- i dont think female orgasm was only invented in 1960- i dont think feminists think that at all. But the improvment of the qulaity of female sexual experiences has improved in western countries int he last 50 years.
    .
    That is down in part to feminism. and thats where the empowerment angle comes in. there are some areas of ireland where girls (illegally) are denied full sex education. So they actually DONT know what a clitoris. Some can work it our by themselves and some will escape those communities to get empowered by information about their bodies.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    First is StephEnie.
    Second. Proof of that please? Feminism loves to affirm a lot of truths about women with no verifiable data. So if you point me out to proof that showed that the clitoris is present on women as a happy accident that no men ever touched or stimulated in any way till 1960 then you are just expressing an opinion.

    Also when I have sex with my husband I feel happy and relaxed. I love my husband and desire to have sex with him because I’m attracted, healthy and in love with him no because I need some validation or ego trip from experience. But again maybe I’m weird like that.

  • jess

    eh? are we agreeing then? We both agree that the clitoris was known about before feminism? Yes?
    However the widespread knowledge proliferrated in the latter part of the century.
    I cant beleive you would dispute that.
    Ummm. get a 1930’s female magazine and compare it to…I dunno… Cosmo? More? Marie Claire?.
    Feminism allowed women to have a forum about anything they wished, including sex, whehter or not it upset the patricachal or religeous rulers.
    The fact that you can go out today and buy a vibrator is in part to E. Pankhurst.
    .
    i’m delighted you enjoy sex with your husband. I do hope you do it for pro creation only as I am a catholic and simply wont accept you breaking the lords word.

  • Anonymous

    @ Stephenie Rowling

    While it is arguable what was the situation before feminism came into existence, it is reasonable to assume that as Jess had pointed out, the quality of the female experience has dramatically improved since then. Back in the day, women were oppressed and even shamed for enjoying sex. I’ve heard of cases, where some women would hide their faces if they enjoyed an orgasm. Some women may have realized the good sensation they get through massaging their own clits, but it is arguable whether they had the courage to ask their men for cooperation. When it comes to things such as cunnilingus, it is probably a recent invention in the western world.
    -Florence

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I do hope you do it for pro creation only as I am a catholic and simply wont accept you breaking the lords word.

    Well you can’t be catholic since you declared to have extramarital sex so try to pretend you belong to a faith that condones it at least. No to mention that even Catholics agree with having sex as an expression of love under marital bliss that allows the spouses to get closer. Again you need to try and do it better if you want me to buy it.

    Second you really are deluded read a bit about the history of sex and sexual organs.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunnilingus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris#Recognition_of_existence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamasutra
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfumed_Garden
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_erotic_depictions

  • Anonymous

    @ Stephenie Rowling

    Thanks! I just saw that and giggled. I had no idea that cunnilingus was performed at Pompeii!

    -Florence

  • jess

    well we have all heard of the karma sutra and both islam and christianity have some pretty saucy stuff in some of their paperwork.
    .
    im sure there were some cultures quite advnced in some aspects of sexuality- the ancient greeks and romans were hardly non experimental.
    .
    but that doesnt detract from my point does it? the mass female experience in uk and usa and many other countries was very poor due to oppression.
    Feminism is a critical factor in dismantling that in the 60s and 70s.
    .
    i am a lapsed catholic and i dotn beleive contarception is wrong- i was having a wee jest. You do know I suppose that feminist pressure is responsible for some of the catholic policy changes in the last 30 years? including the allowance of the withdrawl technique as legitimate marital conduct?
    .
    Are you aware of the pressure groups that asked the catholic church to allow african women and men to use condoms to prevent AIDS?
    .
    Are you aware that usa and uk law has been changed in the last 80 years specifically for female seuxlaity rights? due to pressure groups?
    .
    Do you know what these pressure groups have in common? A little word begiining with ‘f’
    .
    The envirnment that has been fostered ALLOWs a forum on female sexuality that would not be allowed on the BBC in the 50s. My great grandmother had a better classics education than most in this country but even a thick 14yo girl today knows more about sex than she ever did.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yeah I know all the GOOD the feminism has done, but I acknowledge that they also have BAD things. No movement or philosophy is perfect and teaching women that having men willing to have sex with as some form of ego trip and validation has damaged a lot of women as much as oppressive society did. I think this blog is an attempt to have a realistic view of sex where neither total oppression or total freedom are worshiped as the all time problem solver they were.
    Many women are not wired to have multiple sexual partners with no emotional baggage.
    Many women have a desire to have a committed relationship both have casual sex to avoid being called prudes or have no means to compete for male attention on the light of sluttier women.
    Many men will be wary at best of committing to a woman with a wild past do to fears of cheating, cockholding, pussywhiping, entitled behaviour, lazy motherhood (or no motherhood at all) nasty break ups or just a personal preference for a partner with a lower sexual number than themselves.
    All this are truth expressed by the men here. Do feminism teaches that on women studies? Do they teach that even if they don’t get pregnant or have an STD they will shorten the pool of available and willing men that will be willing to settle down once they feel like it? That many men that happily bang them today think of them as a bit over than plastic cups and that tomorrow they will not look on their way for anything else aside from a quicky? This is a reality check post.

    Feminism did great things, and some of their battles are still worth it, but as off now they are no telling the whole truth to women about how things actually work once they are no longer as hot and as pretty and they have a new batch of younger hotter women offering the same to men that everyday has less reasons to commit and more to play the field. And really most men don’t care how many degrees you have or how much money you make if you can’t offer them the security of a blissful marriage life.
    Susan didn’t started this blog out of thin air, the cases of women that want commitment and can’t find men willing to do so are a growing epidemic (and Susan its not even talking about the nasty divorces, sex starved wives, cheating and so on) all we are doing is a little reality check for women that desperately need it.

  • Abbot

    “…teaching women that having men willing to have sex with as some form of ego trip and validation…”
    .
    Any man who marries a woman with this “empowerment” mindset with the intent of having children is an absolute dumb misguided f…g fool. It keeps coming back to this: having sex with men is NOT an accomplishment!!!!! People are admired for accomplishments and denigrated for boasting about doing stupid shit. Its the same as saying that an alcoholic is “empowered” when taking a drink. Sure, the idiot drinker may feel that way but its well accepted that nobody else will and should not. An obese person may say that for centuries people had little access to food and practically starved so now she feels “empowered” by having all this free non-judgmental access to eclairs.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Its the same as saying that an alcoholic is “empowered” when taking a drink. Sure, the idiot drinker may feel that way but its well accepted that nobody else will and should not. An obese person may say that for centuries people had little access to food and practically starved so now she feels “empowered” by having all this free non-judgmental access to eclairs.

    This is a good analogy. I wonder if we could define this as some form of socially constructed sex addition. I fuck, therefore I am?

  • Abbot

    “I wonder if we could define this as some form of socially constructed sex addition. I fuck, therefore I am?”
    .
    No different than “I drink, therefore I am” – a non-admirable low-class behavior and character flaw. People are typically addicted to something that offered some initial pleasure but the addiction is possible only because that something is very easy to attain. There are some men who are addicted to sex but for most men who could become addicted it so difficult to attain that its a non starter. For women with unrestrained access to always-willing men, the potential for addiction is extreme. No different than someone who is too weak to say no to booze – because booze is abundant and cheap. Although people have compassion for an addicted person, people are also disgusted by alcoholics and the obese and nobody seems to have a problem with that feeling. But why when men show disgust for sexually indulgent women, there is all this outcry of double standard, controlling attitudes, insecurity and on and on with insults. Women get all defensive over it and yet its rare if ever that an alcoholic, at least when sober, gets all defensive about their indulgence. But its no different and men should continue to hold to a wifely character standard as they see fit no matter how much women howl and complain about it. No man [or woman] should be made to feel bad about not wanting to marry a current or former alcoholic.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Who has the ability of multiple orgasms?”
    .
    As a matter of fact, I read of a study that found more men (~25%) than women (~20%) reported experiencing multiple orgasms.
    .
    Technically speaking, the male prolactin response is the apparent cause of the male “refractory period” and so women have an intrinsic capability. And then we have to settle on a definition of multiple orgasm (time between, chemical response pattern, etc).
    .
    But the point is, men can have multiples, and apparently more men than women actually do. (I’m sure Jess will just say that’s because education about female orgasm has been suppressed, despite the fact I’ve seen ten times more in print and film about female O faces than male ones.)

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “When it comes to things such as cunnilingus, it is probably a recent invention in the western world.”
    .
    I don’t mean to pick on Florence but she has definitely mirrored the intellectual vacuity of feminism. Feminism pretends that no woman ever had an orgasm until after the Pill was invented. It’s just so goddamn stupid. Is anybody teaching history anymore?
    .
    You want to have a good time having sex? Me too, have a great time. But don’t teach your daughters or readers on the Internet that female sexuality lived through thousands of years of dark ages until Margaret Sanger played Moses to women.
    .
    Forget Pompeii (although the sexual bacchanalia of the late Roman period might blow Camille Paglia and Ron Jeremy’s minds) – read about the Flapper era, the roaring 20’s. Now that was a party of female license.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Don’t be silly Badger. Feminism invented sex, babies were delivered by storks before the 60’s.

  • Abbot

    “Feminism pretends that no woman ever had an orgasm until after the Pill was invented.”

    It is mostly about pretending. Its a fallacy-fueled prophecy: paraphrase repeatedly the same old emotionally charged assumptions and false findings from friends in your girls club until that is the only information anyone can find and eventually it constitutes the truth. Until of course an opposing viewpoint gets too loud to ignore and you must denigrate it in order to maintain your position. HUS is just one opposing viewpoint.
    .
    The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history.
    George Orwell
    .
    The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.
    Bertrand Russell
    .
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
    Joseph Goebbels
    .
    Looks like truth has gone out of style. It’s considered rude. Wouldn’t want to offend anyone. Being right doesn’t seem to matter. We award credibility to the most articulate liars. We prefer caring, passionate lies. If it feels good, believe it. The Rantings of a Single Male, by Thomas Ellis
    .
    We hear very little today about how women can join with men on equal terms to contribute to a universal human culture. Instead, feminist ideology has taken a divisive, gynocentric turn, and the emphasis now is on women as a political class whose interests are at odds with the interests of men. Women must be loyal to women, united in principled hostility to the males who seek to hold fast to their patriarchal privileges and powers. Who Stole Feminsim? How Women Have Betrayed Women, by Christina Hoff Sommers
    ,
    …our Society has not only silenced men per se but also dehumanized them. And this is so to such an extent that even men can now find it difficult to recognize their own humanity, let along their equality with women. Spreading Misandry, by Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young
    ,
    All indications are that the new crop of young feminist ideologues coming out of our nation’s colleges are even angrier, more resentful and more indifferent to the truth than their mentors. The women currently manning – womanning – the feminist ramparts do not take well to criticism. I have been moved to write this book because I am a feminist who does not like what feminism has become. The new gender feminism is badly in need of scrutiny. Who Stole Feminism, How Women Have Betrayed Women, by Christina Hoff Sommers

  • terre

    I don’t know how human beings cope with living in a world as intellectually incurious, petty and venal as Jess’. That part of my brain must’ve never gotten past the fetal stages, because I can’t stand it.

  • Abbot

    “Feminism did great things, and some of their battles are still worth it, but as off now they are no telling the whole truth to women about how things actually work once they are no longer as hot and as pretty and they have a new batch of younger hotter women offering the same to men that everyday has less reasons to commit and more to play the field. And really most men don’t care how many degrees you have or how much money you make if you can’t offer them the security of a blissful marriage life.”
    .
    Feminism, to remain even marginally relevant, must have a constant supply of new conscripts or recruits via the media and “women’s studies” indoctrination. It supplies a “new batch of younger hotter women” or empowerment fledglings ready to throw their bodies at men and ruin opportunities for the prior decade’s graduates. Therefore, feminism motivates men to act like kids in a candy store and disrespect and mock the robotic directives women follow. Those directives are claimed to be “choices” but few men here or anywhere are fooled.

  • Mike C

    Forget Pompeii (although the sexual bacchanalia of the late Roman period might blow Camille Paglia and Ron Jeremy’s minds) – read about the Flapper era, the roaring 20’s. Now that was a party of female license.

    There is nothing new under the sun. As a species, we simply repeat the same cycles over and over again. Most people know zip about history so in their combination of ignorance and arrogance think there is something unique about the times they live in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapper#End_of_the_flapper_era


    “Despite its popularity, the flapper lifestyle and look could not survive the Wall Street Crash and the following Great Depression. The high-spirited attitude and hedonism simply could not find a place amid the economic hardships of the 1930s.”

    One theory of mine is that extreme individualism, libertinism, and basically a “free for all” is tied to the cycles of economic prosperity. Did Madonna give birth to this in in the early 80s with “Material Girl”? The 80s and 90s were very similar to the 20s in term of a roaring stock market, low unemployment, etc.

    My own view is there are some very, very tough economic times coming. Very difficult choices will have to be made. I haven’t read the Fourth Turning, but I believe that is the main premise of the book. Hook-up culture and “empowerment” might see a pushback similar to the 30s and 40s and you might see a move back to traditionalism. We may be seeing early inklings of that now. In the 80s and 90s, I think it would have been unheard of for a 20-something woman to pushback against the core feminist message. Now you see an intelligent, insightful young woman like Stephanie saying “hey, alot of this message is bullshit”.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Mike C,
    “…very, very tough economic times coming” doesn’t begin to cover it. I’ve been investing since I was 13, and what’s coming is going to make the Great Depression look like a bad hungover weekend.
    .
    Totally off-topic here folks, but stock up on food at Costco this weekend, get a water filter, ammo, and convert your IRA to precious metals buried in your basement, cuz the U.S. dollar is about to become worthless in the next 5 years, if not sooner (hard to time it). The Federal Reserve just became the largest holder of U.S. Treasury debt in the world.
    .
    I recommend you panic.

  • Abbot

    “stock up on food at Costco this weekend, get a water filter, ammo, and convert your IRA to precious metals buried in your basement,”
    .
    or expatriate south of Mexico to a small town where you can have good water and food security and meet women who have never even heard of hook up, empowerment, expressing sexuality – in other words, super wife material.

  • Mike C

    @ Geoff,

    Way OT here, but you and I are probably not too far apart although I think you see a worse storm coming then I do. FWIW, I”m an investment/finance guy and I manage some retirement portfolios.

    Kinda funny, the other day you mentioned U.S. Treasuries, and right now in my trading portfolio, being short U.S. Treasuries (via the TLT ETF) is my single largest position. We are right at multi-year support. If it breaks, LT interest rates could go much, much, much higher over the next several years. All you young people looking forward to buying a house and starting families, good luck with the mortgage payments if that happens.

    I’m long precious metals in a big way. Massive dollar devaluation is the only way out. Say hello to $200 crude oil and $6 a gallon gas.

    I look at the math associated with the Baby Boomer related entitlement spending (Social Security and Medicare) and there is JUST NO WAY. Obama basically completely disregarded the Deficit Commission report. Right now, we are playing kick the can down the road, and bury our head in the sand.

    I see only one endgame. Print the money to pay the debt and obligations. This will cause extremely high inflation and massive devaluation of our currency. I am also contemplating converting some portion of my savings to other currencies like the Canadian dollar.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Mike C,
    I disagree in part. All currencies in the world are (for first time in world history) backed by jackshit. I wouldn’t trust Canada and Australia NOT to inflate if the rest of the world follows us into hyperinflation hell, making Can/Aus goods prohibitively expensive even BEFORE transportation costs to rest of the world. I pray this leads to gold and/or silver backed currency after millions starve, but we’ll see. Not sure why I’m more pessimistic than you if you concede $200 crude–that energy cost goes into price of everything we buy at Wal-Mart. Percentage of U.S. budgets for food is going to go sky-high.
    .
    To those of you who want a short summary of what Mike and I see coming (he’s more optimistic than me):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
    .
    Short version of how we got here?
    .
    Democrats want social programs no matter what and SAY they’re willing to raise taxes to pay for them, but if need be they’re good with using the credit card.
    .
    Republicans want lower taxes no matter way and SAY they’re willing to cut benefits, but if need be they’re good with using the credit card.
    .
    We’re now using credit card Z to pay the interest on credit card Y, which is itself paying the interest on credit card X, which is…
    –We’re fooked.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Mike C,
    When you say you’re long PMs–you DO mean physical right? Paper gold isn’t fit to wipe your ass with, the way JPM et al are naked shorting the fuck out of it (paper gold) and filling up their vaults with the real stuff. Commodities exchanges are manned by lying whores who are evidently on the take. Buy physical gold while it’s this underpriced.

  • Anonymous

    My theory Mike, is that everything too extreme is eventually doomed to fail or at best experience a push-back, including extreme feminism.
    .
    “Now you see an intelligent, insightful young woman like Stephanie saying “hey, alot of this message is bullshit”.”
    .
    No. My ignorance of when “cunnilingus” was first practiced wasn’t due to the fact that feminism had lied to me. It was simply that I had never bothered to read its history. Feminism is not teaching women to be sluts either. Its main purpose is to remove inequality and empower women to be able to make decisions for themselves when they end up in situations of inequality. Can a powerless, virgin, sweet housewife do anything about a cheating husband? Most likely she would have to close her eyes and accept him the way he is for the sake of her own and her offspring’s survival. If she tries to fight with her husband about it, her attempts could result in domestic violence against her. Some men still think that women are less intelligent than men. Many women throughout history were faced with such situations and the need for something to be done about it, gave birth to feminism. It is only natural for men to resist feminism as they feel that they’re loosing power and control over women nowadays. I can understand your bitterness. Loosing power and money to someone you consider less intelligent or less competent than yourself is indeed frustrating.
    -Florence

  • Anonymous

    And according to my theory, extreme socialism is also doomed to fail or experience a pushback. Canada has a very different economy – it is a tax-based country.That in itself makes its economy more stable and less prone to external influences. In addition, Canada has oil reserves.
    -Florence

  • Abbot

    “Feminism is not teaching women to be sluts either. Its main purpose is to remove inequality and empower women to be able to make decisions for themselves when they end up in situations of inequality. ”
    .
    So where is the teaching coming from? If a main purpose of feminism is to “empower” then its a cult that is able to only work on weak-minded women who did not build up sufficient self esteem through good parentage. True, there is is inequality regarding matters of sex – women have always been able to get it when they want and men have not. So how does feminism attempt to remove that inequality?

  • Abbot

    “Can a powerless, virgin, sweet housewife do anything about a cheating husband?”
    .
    Is a spring-break-hopper now housewife any more able for some reason?

  • Abbot

    “It is only natural for men to resist feminism as they feel that they’re loosing power and control over women nowadays.”
    .
    An interesting opinion. But there is no point in resisting feminism. Men have better things to do. What in FACT is happening is that men are learning that they can, if they so choose, avoid feminists. Whether this is “natural” or has anything to do with “power and control” is unknown but it sure feels good.

  • Mike C

    @ Florence,

    It is only natural for men to resist feminism as they feel that they’re loosing power and control over women nowadays

    FWIW, it is “losing” not “loosing”.

    Regarding intelligence, the mean intelligence of men and women is basically the same. On average, women score higher on verbal while men score higher on mathematical/logical. Men occupy more of the outliers at the tail ends.

    I can understand your bitterness.

    Honestly, this is just silly, and detracts from your credibility. You continue to straddle the fence as to whether I can take you seriously. You could learn something from Stephanie. You don’t know me. I have nothing to be bitter about. I’m gainfully employed so I’m not a victim of the mancession (although I’m not doing exactly what I want). I’m not one of the guys experiencing “involuntary celibacy”. I’m with a great, wonderful, hot woman (Susan has seen her pics so she can attest to that). So I have nothing to be bitter about so you throwing that out there without knowing me is just flat out stupid. What I can recognize is an overarching state of affairs that is fucked up.

    I’m all for equality of job opportunity, finances, leadership roles in government, etc. but the modern day feminist movement has been taken over by people who think wearing a T-shirt with “slut” or “bitch” is empowering. It is a total farce. Meanwhile, it has led to a system that has gone too far in the other direction, especially in terms of abuses of the legal/judicial system and a loss of economic opportunity for lower educated men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Florence

      Seriously, Mike and his gf look like some golden alpha couple. She is gorgeous, and her bod is phenomenal. Well done, I say to Mike – he got her (and keeps her) with Game.

  • Anonymous

    @Abbot
    “True, there is is inequality regarding matters of sex – women have always been able to get it when they want and men have not.”
    .
    Who said that? A lot of times women do not get to be with the man they want for various reasons – he is either taken, not interested, crazy, gay, or unwilling to stick around and be committed in order to eventually receive the sex. In such situations a woman is faced with two options – 1)To move on and try her luck with another man or 2)Sleep with him too early. Perhaps if you acknowledge that men and women want different things at the first place, you’d realize that not everyone gets what they want easier than the other.
    -Florence

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Mike C,
    As an aside–when you say long PMs, you mean physical right? Cuz JPM et al are naked shorting the shit out of paper gold so they can buy physical before the whole world currency system goes catty-wampus. Commodities exchange leadership is evidently on the take, as are (obviously) all federal politicians. Buy gold while it’s still cheap, courtesy of the fraudsters.

  • Anonymous

    @ Mike C
    Meanwhile, it has led to a system that has gone too far in the other direction, especially in terms of abuses of the legal/judicial system and a loss of economic opportunity for lower educated men.
    .
    Do you have any evidence that feminism caused “a loss of economic opportunity for lower educated men” or was it their laziness? What about lower educated women? Do you think they’ve got more of an economic opportunity?
    .
    My comments about bitterness weren’t specifically directed at you.
    -Florence

  • Tom

    For once we agree on something…..The sheeple here in the US have no idea of the criminal element that has taken over our government from within. The ridiculous decisions that have been made in this country could not be mistakes. NO ONE is that stupid
    Kennedy tried to warn us, and you see where it got him…..

    httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2JB53aX-E

  • Abbot

    ” A lot of times women do not get to be with the man they want for various reasons ”
    .
    This is about obtaining sex. What has feminism done to address the inequality between women and men in their ability to obtain sex when they want it?

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    I can see Susan pulling leaves off a switch outside in the garden. I think we’re going to get whipped for going OT.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I can see Susan pulling leaves off a switch outside in the garden. I think we’re going to get whipped for going OT.

      Haha, no…I’m especially tolerant of going OT re the economy, government, etc. because I’m interested myself. You guys are scaring me though!

  • Anonymous

    @Abbot
    “Is a spring-break-hopper now housewife any more able for some reason?”
    .
    Is feminism forcing you to choose a spring-break-hopper for a wife? I am a feminist and I am not a spring-break-hopper. I actually never went to my spring break, which was supposed to be in Cancun. I think, I chose to work during that spring break and save some money for a Euro-trip. You can choose whoever you want as a gf or a wife, just don’t criticize other people for their personal decisions regarding their own lives.
    -Florence

  • Höllenhund

    Jess:
    Its about choice, enjoying our bodies, following our preferences, experimenting, discovering our needs, ignoring prejeduces. Men dont tend to get this becuase they live in a society where they have that power automatically.
    Indeed. Because, as we all know, all men in the bygone patriarchy were automatically empowered to freely enjoy their bodies, follow their preferences, experiment, discover their needs and ignore prejudices. There were no rigid mandatory gender roles for them to fill. Right.
    The level that female solipsism can reach is mind-boggling. You should really improve your atrocious grammar skills, by the way. And no, I’ll not respond if you have nothing else to offer but your usual snark and shaming language.
    “I guess but my sympthathy is going to gravitate to the 60 yo irish catholic grandmother who was beaten by her husband and never had an orgasm her whole life. You show me the male equivalent and I will dial down the bra burning thing.”
    I suggest you don’t start comparing the suffering of the sexes throughout history because the evidence won’t support your argument. Your grandmother’s husband was probably used as a beast of burden and cannon fodder by his rulers, forced to slave away and risk death for the so-called “common good”. Throughout history 80% of women reproduced whereas only 40% of men have done the same due to their higher mortality levels and female hypergamy. They suffered the majority of workplace-related deaths and war casualties, both of which women were largely shielded from. YOU show me the female equivalent to dying on the battlefield and having to slave away for your family alone, then I’ll bother to listen to the grievances of women, who have always been the privileged and protected sex. Lack of orgasms won’t cut it.
    Florence:
    “Can a powerless, virgin, sweet housewife do anything about a cheating husband? Most likely she would have to close her eyes and accept him the way he is for the sake of her own and her offspring’s survival.”
    No. Open a history book. Infidelity and cruelty were basis for divorce in Marriage 1.0. Women routinely divorced their husbands for such reasons decades before feminism gained traction.
    “It is only natural for men to resist feminism as they feel that they’re loosing power and control over women nowadays.”
    Most men never resisted feminism because they, the morons, had benevolence and empathy in them. And are you seriously going to argue that a man who is socially obligated to be the provider and protector of a woman and her children has no right to socially sanctioned controls over her?
    “I can understand your bitterness.”
    This remark shows why women like Florence should be ignored by men. Notice her condescending tone. “Oh, I understand why you became so bitter.” She doesn’t say it openly but she clearly doesn’t believe men can have any legitimate complaints in life or that male suffering actually matters. Women who lack empathy deserve none in return.
    “Loosing power and money to someone you consider less intelligent or less competent than yourself is indeed frustrating.”
    Men aren’t losing money and power to women. They are losing it to the gynocentric state, which props women up.

  • Mike C

    My comments about bitterness weren’t specifically directed at you.

    OK, I guess I misinterpreted the “your” part in the sentence:

    “I can understand **your** bitterness.” Anyways, no prob.

    Do you have any evidence that feminism caused “a loss of economic opportunity for lower educated men” or was it their laziness? What about lower educated women? Do you think they’ve got more of an economic opportunity?

    This is tough to sum up briefly, and I think it is inaccurate to point the finger at feminism and say “feminism did it”. There are structural problems in the U.S. economy that go well beyond the influence of feminism. That said, one example would be the allocation of government stimulus money. Men without college education tend to be more involved in construction, be physical laborers. Not a ton of female construction workers. Women on the other hand, tend to have a higher percentage in public service, social service, education, etc. Very little of the government stimulus money was directed towards public infrastructure despite the fact that public infrastructure in the U.S. is in horrid condition in many places. Women tended to vote more for Obama then men (although things get interesting when you break it down amongst married versus single women) so at least on some level he knows where his bread gets buttered. Interestingly, as an aside point, one of the biggest glaring differences in voting patterns and political views is married women with children versus single women.

    All that said, “womens’ interests” are just a drop in the bucket of influence on political spending relative to much more powerful influences such as the banking elite who basically run the country. I’m not anti-feminist. I’m all for the feminism that has women getting MBAs, sitting on the Supreme Court, being CEOs, a President some day, etc. I’m against the feminism that produces spoiled, narcissistic, princess bitches like the Avril video or what you see on some of the blogs.

  • Anonymous

    @This is about obtaining sex. What has feminism done to address the inequality between women and men in their ability to obtain sex when they want it?
    .
    What do you think needs to be done about it? Tell people to sleep with others they don’t find attractive or good-enough for them, just so that these people don’t feel that they have been discriminated against when it comes to “sexual selection”? This is ridiculous! I advocate legalizing prostitution, but men here are strongly opposed. Or perhaps, we should kindly ask women to not turn down 95% of the men that approach them and to specifically select the ones who have gotten the least amount of sex up to this point, in order to ensure that all men get an equal amount of sex on this SMP? Nonsense.
    -Florence

  • Anonymous

    @ Mike C
    “I’m against the feminism that produces spoiled, narcissistic, princess bitches like the Avril video or what you see on some of the blogs.”
    .
    I do not tolerate such women either. However, blaming feminism (entirely) for producing them is wrong. Do you think that such women did not exist before feminism was born? Sluts, bitches, cheating wives, and people of poor moral character in general, have existed all throughout history.
    -Florence

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Feminism, to remain even marginally relevant, must have a constant supply of new conscripts or recruits via the media and “women’s studies” indoctrination. It supplies a “new batch of younger hotter women” or empowerment fledglings ready to throw their bodies at men and ruin opportunities for the prior decade’s graduates. Therefore, feminism motivates men to act like kids in a candy store and disrespect and mock the robotic directives women follow. Those directives are claimed to be “choices” but few men here or anywhere are fooled.

    You know I want to research this a bit more, but being a commenter of Jezebel had showed me that some women are actually incapable of individual though and do things because is what their sisters say they should do and try and destroy anyone that disagrees. I’m also tempted to take a women studies class. I just feel I will get a heart attack or something when they start demonizing men as selfish bastards whose only though is to dominate women. This women surely never had spent time a good man ever on their lives! Fathers, brothers, uncles were all abusive bastards.

    One theory of mine is that extreme individualism, libertinism, and basically a “free for all” is tied to the cycles of economic prosperity. Did Madonna give birth to this in in the early 80s with “Material Girl”? The 80s and 90s were very similar to the 20s in term of a roaring stock market, low unemployment, etc.

    I’m not sure about that. In the 80’s and early 90’s we got the AIDS’s scare so a lot of people stopped their licentious ways if anything, it interrupted the 70’s libertine wave that indeed were in line with the roaring 20’s IMO. Maybe after AIDS’s became a chronic disease things continue on the way they were or we are just in our own decadent time because the occidental empire is falling, is one or the other IMO.

    No. My ignorance of when “cunnilingus” was first practiced wasn’t due to the fact that feminism had lied to me. It was simply that I had never bothered to read its history.

    So you made an ignorant and prejudiced statement on something you never bothered to investigate and that somehow is better? Ooookay.

    Can a powerless, virgin, sweet housewife do anything about a cheating husband?Most likely she would have to close her eyes and accept him the way he is for the sake of her own and her offspring’s survival. If she tries to fight with her husband about it, her attempts could result in domestic violence against her.

    Wow. You said you were catholic? I think you are a HUGE liar. If you knew virgins you will know that an hymen its not some sort of mental block or something that makes a woman weak or prone to abuse. I will like to tell you somethings about sex.

    *Sex doesn’t give you superpowers: If you are a strong woman willing to fight for your rights sticking 1, 10,100 or ZERO dicks on you won’t change that. The same if you are a spineless idiot, the amount of dicks won’t change that either.

    *Sex doesn’t protect you from an abusive relationship: Really you think that if you bang a man you can tell if he will beat your or not, if he will cheat on you or not? There are indicators of how violent a man can get, but sex in the majority of cases is not one of them. If that were the case sex revolution would had eliminated domestic abuse and cheating by now.

    *Sex doesn’t guarantee a relationship, love, respect, empowerment, even money for the cab ride back home, heck not even remembering your name or a phone call and specially not an orgasm: I hope I don’t have to explain this one.

    *Your value as a person its not tied to how many men stick it into you: Really if you think you need to bang around to achieve some sort of special status, enlightenment or superpower you are deluded. This site is about consequences of sex on the dating pool selection ONLY and even if slutting yourself will make less men prone to want to marry you, no one here is saying that you will not be able to do a lot of the other stuff you don’t need a man to do (study, travel, earn money, have a career…). But that just in case someday before your eggs die of age on your body or if you come back home from a day on your high earning empowering job and want more sound on your house than just from the TV, you will have more luck to finding and keeping a quality male partner if you didn’t slut yourself. Its not a matter of value on the big sense of the word is Newton’s Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

  • Tom

    Here is my take on feminism….They do not teach women to be sluts, they do teach them to live their own lives and make their own decisions.. Think about this for a moment.. Women were oppressed for centuries, still are in a lot of the worlds countries.Women got the right to vote less than 100 years ago. They wore aweful bathing suits until only 40 or 50 years ago. They were not really involved in elected politics until 25 years ago. Why? Because men held them down.. There are still country clubs that have “unwritten” rules about allowing women on the golf course.The more freedoms women get, the more options they get. One of those options is sex, and whom they choose to have it with. I know this frustrates and infuriates a lot of men. Many men were brought up thinking a particular way (myself included) Go out, play the field, and when you are ready, find a nice attractive wholesome woman who will be true to you, take care of you , cook for you etc….Todays woman is the opposite of that. They want us to do our share of the housework, help raise the kids, bring home the money, allow them to work outside the home, and look the other way concerning their past love life…..It goes against everything that we were taught to expect as men. Well all I can say is, “times ,they are a changin.” Women got the right to vote, and men protested…Women exposed a lot more skin and their men protested…Women started running for office and got elected and men protested.. Women demand a man do his part around the house and with the kids and men protested..And now women are testing the waters sexually as men have always done, and men are (surprise!) protesting. I would hope the ones protesting the loudest are not just the bitter men, but after being here for a month or so. it sure seems that way.
    In a way, sexual freedom doesnt just limit the womans choices, it limits a lot of mens choices if those men “choose” (it is a choice) to exclude those women from the selection process. Horse and buggy thinking none the less. Personally I dont think a women is any more likely to cheat than a man of a similar number is. Just another excuse to hold women down.
    My daughter was also a college athlete. Female athletes had to put up with inferior facilities for years. But some nasty old feminist cooked up ‘title 9″ so now the law says men facilities and female facilities will be as equal, and men protested. I will be damned if my daughter will be treated any less than any man.
    Because I truely think a lot of men (some post in this blog) still think women are inferior.

  • Abbot

    “What do you think needs to be done about it? …when it comes to “sexual selection”? ”
    .
    It is not about sexual selection – it about women getting casual sex whenever they feel like it. Feminists are the self proclaimed experts on all things unequal between women and men. They blab daily about this or that inequality or bugaboo du jour. Therefore, we look to them for such opinions. So what is their position on this inequality? Surely, they must have one if they are really concerned about the well being of all people.

  • Tom

    @ Steph

    *Sex doesn’t give you superpowers: If you are a strong woman willing to fight for your rights sticking 1, 10,100 or ZERO dicks on you won’t change that. The same if you are a spineless idiot, the amount of dicks won’t change that either.

    ____________________
    Exactly!!!!!! that is what I have been saying…… A good woman is a good woman, no matter if she has slept around some.

  • Dilithium

    “Todays woman is the opposite of that. They want us to do our share of the housework, help raise the kids, bring home the money, allow them to work outside the home, and look the other way concerning their past love life”

    Really, Tom, where are you getting your information? The consensus here (I don’t necessarily agree myself) is that any man who did all those things would be branded a “beta weakling” and his wife would lose all respect and desire for him, and then most likely leave him. So you may wish to re-consider whether what you describe is, in fact, what women want in any practical, realistic way.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Susan,
    However scared you are about our commentary on the future of the world economy, you aren’t nearly scared enough.
    .
    Sorry. I’m sure Germans who kept up with the financial news in 1922 had a bad, bad feeling about the Mark continuing to inflate, also. From 1922 to 1923, the amount of Marks you needed to buy an ounce of gold went from 100 to 1 Trillion. With a T. Not a typo. In a year.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GermanyHyperChart.jpg
    .
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/ess_germanhyperinflation.html

  • Anonymous

    @Stephenie Rowling
    So you made an ignorant and prejudiced statement on something you never bothered to investigate and that somehow is better? Ooookay.
    .
    Yes I did and as you saw I said “thanks” for pointing those Wikipedia sources out. I acknowledged the fact that I was wrong for making statements with a limited amount of information. This is just an online forum and I am sure that others talk about things without having references to back up their statements. Thus being a critical reader is extremely important, especially on online forums. I also think that it is wrong to talk about things one knows little about and will try my best not to.
    .
    Wow. You said you were catholic? I think you are a HUGE liar. If you knew virgins you will know that an hymen its not some sort of mental block or something that makes a woman weak or prone to abuse. I will like to tell you somethings about sex.
    .
    I never said that I was Catholic and I am not. That was Jess. I am a Christian of a particular kind, but it doesn’t guide my decisions in life. My point about being “virgin” was not that it makes a woman weaker or more prone to abuse or that a woman should not wait if that is what she wants. My point was in regards to the cost-benefit ratio of preserving virginity b4 marriage. The benefits aren’t worth it most of the time. Men say that they appreciate it, but don’t. If a man is to be a jerk or a cheater to his wife, he will be irregardless of whether she was a virgin or not. That being said, I agree with all your other points on sex and slut-hood.
    -Florence

  • Anonymous

    @Abbot
    “It is not about sexual selection – it about women getting casual sex whenever they feel like it.”
    .
    Well, I guess we do get it, because you men give it to us!
    .
    -Florence

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yes I did and as you saw I said “thanks” for pointing those Wikipedia sources out. I acknowledged the fact that I was wrong for making statements with a limited amount of information. This is just an online forum and I am sure that others talk about things without having references to back up their statements. Thus being a critical reader is extremely important, especially on online forums. I also think that it is wrong to talk about things one knows little about and will try my best not to.

    Okay thank you for acknowledging it. Sorry if I sounded harsh, I went out of line.

    My point was in regards to the cost-benefit ratio of preserving virginity b4 marriage. The benefits aren’t worth it most of the time. Men say that they appreciate it, but don’t. If a man is to be a jerk or a cheater to his wife, he will be irregardless of whether she was a virgin or not.

    Indeed, but in your comment you presented a virgin like a stereotypical weak dickwhiped woman, thus it did sounded that if a woman wants to wait there is something inherently wrong with her. I personally think that you are right the Madonna or Whore dichotomy is problematic and a woman shouldn’t try to win special treatment whether for keeping it or giving it away. But in the practical sense of the world, virginity preservation (or at least virginity respect) till marriage was more beneficial for our own species than sluthood is nowadays. Men were more willing to commit at younger ages (specially given how sex driven men are at younger ages) because there was no free sex around and there was always available marriageable women to do so, that didn’t need to compete for men constantly and men were having a lot more options to pick. I’m not advocating for going back to virginity as marriage requisite times, but on the big scale of things shaming virgins and demonizing has been part of sluthood culture rise so maybe the ones that are keeping it might not be so crazy after all, I also thing that a guy that meets a virgin and dates her for a considerable amount of time is more likely showing sings that he is valuing her over other women, there are no guarantees true, but like with parenting if you feel like is worth trying it it might be better than you giving it away just because other person might no believe the same, YMMV.

  • Anonymous

    @Dilithium

    Regarding your last statement, are you aware that boyfriends who know how to cook and do the dishes get laid more often? That being said, I also consider myself a pretty good cook, but a guy who can prepare a romantic meal once and a while is huge turn on for me.
    .
    -Florence

  • Stephenie Rowling

    So about finances.
    Aside from hoarding gold, any business worth investing?
    I mean is there any industry that might survive or even grow during this times?

  • MARK

    “When it comes to things such as cunnilingus, it is probably a recent invention in the western world.”
    Its not an invention of the western world, however it has been mainstreamed only recently in the western world. Globablly it has always been viewed as “nasty” and never mainstream. Even now most areas of the world are of this opinion, as was the western world up until a few decades ago. That has to do with the mainstreaming of porn, including semi-pornographic scenes in mainstream television shows and movies.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      FYI, MARK is Plain Jane. And I was about to welcome him to HUS.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    @Steph,
    All stocks and bonds in the U.S. are denominated in U.S. dollars, so no. Even if you get lucky and turn a profit that outpaces the coming hyperinflation (better chance of being struck by lightning), I can see the govt seizing 401-Ks and IRAs, so still no. It’s all a big casino, and practically every American is going to be completely robbed.
    .
    I can see a lot of value in being able to grow your own food on your own land, presuming you have arable land. I’d stock up on food, a water purifier (Katadyn or something), and ammo before I’d recommend you buy silver/gold. If you do all that, I don’t mean ETFs for gold and silver. I mean coins inside your house, not in a safe deposit box.
    .
    And for those who put my projections in a religious context because it’s an easy way to dismiss me–no, I’m not saying this are the ‘end times’ from the Bible. This hyperinflation thingy has, sadly, happened many many times before–see below.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation#Worst_hyperinflations_in_world_history

  • Abbot

    “Well, I guess we do get it, because you men give it to us!”
    .
    Yes, in that harem that includes most women sharing or passing around approx. twenty percent or less of the men. So again, what is the feminist opinion regarding this inequality?

  • Höllenhund

    Good point, Abbot. Women complaining about men’s penchant for causal sex is disingenuous. They WANT to have causal sex with alphas.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    [img]http://www.dialoginternational.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/23/wheelbarrowmutilated.jpg[/img]
    .

    [img]http://www.lehrerfreund.de/medien/geschichte/weimarer-republik/wr-suche-arbeit.jpg[/img]

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Okay thanks for the info. When do you think this is going to end up? 10 years, 20 years…never?

  • Anonymous

    @Stephenie Rowling
    I’m not advocating for going back to virginity as marriage requisite times, but on the big scale of things shaming virgins and demonizing has been part of sluthood culture rise so maybe the ones that are keeping it might not be so crazy after all, I also thing that a guy that meets a virgin and dates her for a considerable amount of time is more likely showing sings that he is valuing her over other women, there are no guarantees true, but like with parenting if you feel like is worth trying it it might be better than you giving it away just because other person might no believe the same, YMMV.
    .
    I am against virgin shaming as much as I am against slut shaming. I have been on the virgin side and I have been called things such as “she is acting like a goody-goody” or “she is just too boring to hang out with us [other more fun girls, who got all the boys]. It isn’t nice. Even boys have inflicted shame on me for being a virgin by rejecting me and choose the sluts. I lost my virginity at 21 but didn’t dare to tell my first bf that I was a virgin for this particular reason – I was paranoid that he might leave me or think that there is something wrong with me for being a virgin at 21. Anyway, I cannot point the finger at feminist and say that it did it. I think that there is more to that. I do believe that some women do use feminism as an excuse to act in a certain way.
    .
    I am advocating the provision of the most accurate and unbiased information about the benefits and consequences of preserving virginity, engaging in some casual sex, or engaging in a lot of casual sex, without shaming. That would leave the opportunity for women to decide what is the best course of action for them. Giving someone the opportunity to decide what is best for them is in itself “empowering”. Movies such as No strings, TSATC and others DO NOT provide an accurate and unbiased information about the benefits/consequences of casual sex. It’s a shame that most young women use the information from the media to make their decisions. Girls from weak families are especially prone to the media influence because they have no other source of information (the family or the mother being the first source) I advocate that we do something about that.
    .
    When something is rare, it is appreciated. This applies to almost anything, including virginity. In today’s SMP, virginity is rare and therefore valuable to men. However, if every woman decided to keep her virginity until marriage, virginity would lose its value (in the eyes of men) so to speak.
    .
    It is true that people got married at an younger age in the past, but the lack of sex wasn’t the only motivating source. Today, people live longer and stay in school longer.
    -Florence

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    Hard to say. This will be, arguably, the worst hyperinflation in history (with the decline of Rome as a possible competitor). Mostly because all currencies today are just paper, backed by nothing–first time in history there will be no alternative currency worth a damn. So it’ll take a long time–it took 15 years from the Great Depression to the end of WW2. Might take us a smidge longer. And yeah, I can see another world war set up by the politicians to distract us from what they’ve done, and to take resources from people who can’t fight back. So basically, cats and dogs, living together–mass hysteria. But, like always, the human animal is resilient, and society will rebuild, like it always does. Gonna look a lot different though.
    .
    And now I’ve officially hijacked the thread. Ok, Susan, I’m bending over now.

  • Mike C

    @Stephanie

    Okay thanks for the info. When do you think this is going to end up? 10 years, 20 years…never?

    First, and most importantly, let me say that neither myself, nor Geoff, nor anyone else has a crystal ball on how economic developments are going to unfold. I only say that so that you don’t take anything here as gospel. I have my opinions, but they are opinions, and I could be wrong.

    I do NOT believe the U.S. is going to have hyperinflation similar to Germany of the early 20s or Zimbabwe recently. Ultimately, I have faith policy makers will prevent that outcome. That said, I do think a cycle of very high inflation is going to unfold over the next 10-20 years probably similar to the 1970s in the U.S. It is well beyond the scope of this comment to outline why that is. I’ve spent probably hundreds of hours studying this issue, and can’t possibly summarize it all in a brief comment. The main point is in an inflationary cycle, “cash is trash” and if you are net saver with savings you have to protect the real value of your savings. If you have $1000 saved today, then it might only be worth $25 in 10-15 years in terms of purchasing power (just an example, I completely made those numbers up).

    Geoff, like I said, I”m not quite as extreme as where you are at. I”m not saying you are wrong or it is impossible, but I just see it as highly unlikely. I don’t see hyperinflation coming. I do NOT think the U.S. government is going to confiscate retirement accounts (there was a South American country that did this and forced all accounts to invest in government bonds). I do NOT as of yet own physical bullion…I own “paper gold” in the GLD ETF. I’m not in the camp that thinks the vaults in London that hold the gold are empty.

    “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes her laws.”
    Mayer Amschel Rothschild

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    Fair enough Mike C. But I find it odd-as-hell that you use that quote by Rothschild at the end after saying it’s not gonna be that bad. I can’t imagine Bernake has any intention of making the i-banks suck up all their bad debt and digest it–much easier to put it on taxpayers and their not-yet-born grandkids. Nor can I see politicians raising taxes to 85% while cutting benefits to near-zero and yet somehow getting re-elected. So off the cliff we go…
    .
    If Susan was of a mind to set up a placeholder post for you and I to exchange fire, I’d ask what you make of the Federal Reserve becoming the largest single entity holding T-bonds as of last Wednesday, surpassing China.
    .
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/120372fc-2e48-11e0-8733-00144feabdc0.html

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I lost my virginity at 21 but didn’t dare to tell my first bf that I was a virgin for this particular reason – I was paranoid that he might leave me or think that there is something wrong with me for being a virgin at 21.

    You know this is the type of things that we should be telling women about. If you couldn’t feel enough trust on your boyfriend to tell share with him that this was your first time then you shouldn’t have had sex with him on the first place. I don’t mean to make you feel bad, this is just an example of how screw up today’s society is when you placed having sex with him on top of trusting him with your body’s state. If sex revolution would had fulfilled its promise of a better sexuality you would had felt more comfortable about your body and your choices, regardless. Again just using some examples.

    I am advocating the provision of the most accurate and unbiased information about the benefits and consequences of preserving virginity, engaging in some casual sex, or engaging in a lot of casual sex, without shaming. That would leave the opportunity for women to decide what is the best course of action for them. Giving someone the opportunity to decide what is best for them is in itself “empowering”

    I agree with that on principle. The shaming? I’m not so sure we can live without it, we had been using it as a very effective social regulator before I do agree that it should be social acceptance, but when you have a group that gets benefits of something is hard for the other side to no try and shame them and the same the other way around. No to mention is easy to tell all this info to a woman that 10 years later is crying because she didn’t knew any better even if she was warned.Many people use the old “I was young” excuse to try to escape this thus showing young people that if you screw up no one is going to take pity on you its a way for them to at least pay attention to the warnings.

    It is true that people got married at an younger age in the past, but the lack of sex wasn’t the only motivating source. Today, people live longer and stay in school longer.

    True but it was huge and also society pressured people to start looking for stable relationships younger. But I don’t think living longer is a big of a factor. Had you known any young person that thinks that they are going to be bored of being a surfer at 65? Marriage life has also been demonized and eternal teenagerhood is being praised as the happiest way a person is. Add to that the inflation of education is another factor because 20 years from now you had a college degree you had a job, now you need a post degree, PHD and so on. Also many people get marry and keep studying so I think there is also social pressure against commiting to early as given that sex is available outside a committed relationship they can get away with it, I think more people would be willing to commit if the benefits of commitment were bigger than the ones for singlehood, YMMV.

  • Anonymous

    @Abbot
    “Yes, in that harem that includes most women sharing or passing around approx. twenty percent or less of the men. So again, what is the feminist opinion regarding this inequality?”
    …..
    Abbot, I tried to explain this point to you 3 times. Sounds like you are fishing for an answer that YOU want to hear. Telling women to specifically choose guys who haven’t had the chance to get laid much in order to minimize the inequality of access to casual sex for men (in other words, insuring that most men get laid by an equal number of hot women) is absolutely insane..
    .
    I don’t know about the feminist opinion, but my personal opinion on this inequality would be that in this world there are winners and losers and it just so happens that the winners are only a small majority (as in every other area in life). My advice to you would be to start acting and subsequently feeling like a winner. I would highly recommend reading some Brian Tracy in order to achieve this. Cheers!
    -Florence

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Geoff and @Mike.
    Don’t worry I’m an information junkie and I will be doing my own research with other people more knowledgeable than me and draw my own conclusions. I personally think USA has a lot more to lose by allowing things get so bad so they will do anything within their power to avoid falling so badly. The question is if they actually have the power to avoid it or not.

  • Mike C

    @ Geoff

    Not sure why that is odd. That quote NEITHER supports or refutes that hyperinflation is coming. It simply illustrates that monetary policy and the “creation” of “money” trumps a lot of other things that people focus an inordinate amount of attention on.

    Again, you may be right. I think it is a possible outcome but not likely. I guess I’m a believer in the adage “we’ll do the right thing after all else fails”. We are still playing kick the can down the road. Eventually, we’ll run out of road. Then tough choices will have to get made. One route is much higher taxation and reduced benefits. The other is print money. The Boomers can outvote anyone else. So far our leaders have been cowards and won’t be honest. We’ll see if someone can be honest, and the Boomers can sacrifice for their children and grandchildren.

    Regarding the Fed and how much Treasuries they own, this was also the case during the 40s and they didn’t have hyperinflation.

    You might find this an interesting read:

    http://www.hussman.net/wmc/wmc100119.htm

    OK, we’ve gone way OT here. We could always move this to e-mail if you want to continue this discussion.

  • http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/130ad2c51b96dc58607d5464f690b75e?s=80 Geoff789

    Government deciding to reduce benefits and increase taxes simultaneously in order to honor its crushing debt-load has happened how many times in history?
    .
    I’m nervous about public displays of my email–not sure how we’d exchange. Maybe Susan could post “Finding a Man Among the Economic Ruins of Tomorrow”?

  • Abbot

    “in this world there are winners and losers and it just so happens that the winners are only a small majority”
    .
    The winners are a large majority of women and a small minority of men, to be exact. Well, to be more accurate, the real winners are a small minority of men who provide empowerment services.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The winners are a large majority of women and a small minority of men, to be exact. Well, to be more accurate, the real winners are a small minority of men who provide empowerment services.

      Those empowered women are losers. Only the alpha male wins in this SMP.

  • Dilithium

    Florence: “are you aware that boyfriends who know how to cook and do the dishes get laid more often?”

    I don’t doubt that this is true, though I’d love to see the scientific study that demonstrated it.

    However, the more interesting question is the zentic reverse: a boyfriend who cooks may enjoy certain advantages, but is an ability to cook more likely to get a man chosen to be a boyfriend in the first place? Remember, cooking is a form of giving; and Susan will certainly tell you that, for a man, giving too much too early puts him at high risk of being found unattractive. It’s sad, now, for me to think back on all the times I cooked on a first or second date, thinking it would be a good way to positively impress a girl; if only Susan had been around for me to read in those days….

  • Aldonza

    @Stephenie Rowling

    I’m also tempted to take a women studies class. I just feel I will get a heart attack or something when they start demonizing men as selfish bastards whose only though is to dominate women.

    I’ve taken quite a few of those classes in my time, and I don’t remember men being demonized in a single one of them. In fact, my favorite women’s studies professor was a very gentile woman, married, mother of 3, who dressed in nothing but skirts and heels and had her classes over for tea.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    “I’ve taken quite a few of those classes in my time, and I don’t remember men being demonized in a single one of them. In fact, my favorite women’s studies professor was a very gentile woman, married, mother of 3, who dressed in nothing but skirts and heels and had her classes over for tea.”

    Mmm how long ago was that?

  • jess

    to Badger,
    I find the orgasm stuff surprising, never read anything like it, but if your data is relaible, thats totally cool- and you know….lucky for both sexes if its true.
    however my point was that women like sex AT LEAST as much as men….providing they are in the right envronment.
    .
    to
    Hollenhund,
    I dont mind if you dont reply to me- you are not under contract. I’m afriad you will have to endure my typos though- i use ipad and its auto correct is rubbish.
    .
    i forgot you were the ‘beasts of burden’ guy- you must be delighted that feminism has allowed women to ease that burden.
    .
    as for the irish grandmother (not mine btw) she is 100% pertinent to this issue.
    Because had she been sexually empowered she would not have beaten and she could have had a wonderful, orgasmic sex life.

  • driftwood

    I’ve always been uncomfortable with the idea of empowerment. The truth is, power is a zero sum game in the social world. What that means is that all power in a social context only exists by somebody else being disempowered. For example, look at what’s happening at Libya now. The populace there is empowering themselves by disempowering Kadafi. There’s no way for them both to have power. This is an extreme example but extreme examples are superb at strongly elucidating a point in my opinion. For women, sexual empowerment is really just using men for social climbing, power, and for sexual satisfaction. There’s nothing wrong with sexual satisfaction but there IS something wrong with using sex for power and social climbing. Using sex for power just disempowers the other person. If a person really believed in sexual empowerment and were ethical, you could not allow yourself to derive your power by disempowering others because disempowering others an act that is in contradiction to your purported ideology of sexual empowerment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @driftwood

      Using sex for power just disempowers the other person.

      Hmmm, I suppose this is true if power is actually bestowed on the user. But I think may women believe they will feel powerful, use a guy with high social status to get their own status bump, and then wind up feeling crappy about it. So the power wasn’t real – it was temporary or an illusion. Meanwhile, the guy retains his power. For him to lose power, he’d have to care more, and she’d have to care less – the principle of least interest.

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