We Could Be Friends!

The first thing that came to mind after I read that was “AWWWW” lol.

But yeah, that’s my ideal way of meeting your future boyfriend and/or husband.

And this is a little OT, but is it rare for females to have looks as the very 1st step when considering a guy? I ask because with me, the first thing I look at with men is looks. But it seems that in these types of discussions, men don’t bring this tidbit up.

Oh BTW
I don’t agree with the chick dating the jerk at the end either. I think the comic message is that if the chick knew what the Nice Guy TM strategy was and had to pick between manipulative guy and honest but jerky guy she will pick the jerk.

Or it could also mean that the first stage on his evil plan started with her doing what he wants to: date jerks so when she is sad and heartbroken she goes to him her “friend”

Is a brilliant comic with other interpretations.

@Stephanie

Interesting that you think that the ‘nice guy’ is intentionally being manipulative. I’d say that a lot of guys genuinely think that being nice and attentive is the way to get women to like them. But they’re often faced with the reality that the girl ends up with the ‘jerk’ showing them their effort was wasted. Of course the jerk is just a confident man who isn’t afraid of rejection, but that’s a whole different story.

Yes, there is an element of hiding / denying their sexuality, which is unhealthy, pitiful and sad, but I wouldn’t call it creepy or evil.

The problem is that a lot of men don’t have many positive examples or role-models that depict men who are confident with women and whom are able to take the initiative.

As far as I can tell from the media (I hardly watch TV or movies, so it may have changed) men are either depicted as nasty players who get all the girls or nice guy losers. That Charlie Sheen show being a good example.

If the creator of this comic was a guy then I bet he is tussling with the seeming problem. Do I have to become a ‘jerk’ to get the girl, why can’t I be nice? etc. etc. Maybe he does know that there is a third way but because it’s a sentiment many men will immediately understand, whether they live their life that way or not.

Call me a cynic but I think the girl is just as much to blame for this situation. Maybe it’s just my own sympathy and tendency to side with the beta guy, or maybe it’s because of my husband being that “friend” in the past when he was in high school and college. But if you’re a girl and in a relationship with another guy, WHY go out with and cuddle with a “friend” that you know to be a hot-blooded young man?

Girls employ this strategically and are just as, if not more, manipulative than the guy. Often they know they’re leading the guy on and love the attention (from multiple guys at the same time). They also get to play out fun melodrama in case it blows up between the boyfriend and the “guy friend.” Classic subterfuge and “let’s you and him fight.”

“I don’t agree with the chick dating the jerk at the end either. I think the comic message is that if the chick knew what the Nice Guy TM strategy was and had to pick between manipulative guy and honest but jerky guy she will pick the jerk.”

Yes, I think that was essentially the message – that the nice guy is worse because he’s “manipulative”, whatever that means, and wants to make her settle for him even though she’ll be unhappy having done so. This is a meme that seems popular when some women come to realize that women often prefer jerks, and they want to explain the phenomon in a way that puts the blame on men rather than on female preference and attraction. So they come up with a narrative that these nice guys are actually being incredibly deceiptful and manipulative by trying to be nice. The reality, of course, is that nice guy just really likes her and doesn’t know how to get from here to there, so he is following his mother’s and sister’s bad advice (or his own bad intuition). But at least it makes women feel better about their bad choices to be able to recharacterize nice guy as a scheming manipulator.

Anonymous
First the person that this comic is a guy so I doubt he is trying to make women feel better and second I never dated a jerk on my life and I still find this man evil. Both are bad choices, IMO.

@Rowling

“First the person that this comic is a guy so I doubt he is trying to make women feel better and second I never dated a jerk on my life and I still find this man evil.”

The Anonymous was me. You find him evil because of the thought process that the author attributed to him. I’m not a mind reader, but I’m just saying that the nice guys who get the LJBF zone treatment are almost certainly not that calculating and are not thinking along those lines. If they were that calculating and manipulative they would have figured out a better way to proceed. The nice guy is just trying to ingratiate himself to her in any way (however ineffective) he knows how. You can call that “manipulative”, but, if so, then we all trying to be manipulative when we attempt to behave in ways that we assume will cause people to like us. I think I will manipulate some people later today by not belching or farting at the dinner table.

@Passer_By
Yes but there is a difference between be polite, supportive or nice and be manipulative in a way that makes you happy regardless of what the other person wants or needs. Where do you draw the line?

“I am 100% with Nice Guy here. He loves her!…He knows he’s “not enough” but doesn’t know what else to do. ”

He doesn’t know what to do? Move on! Find someone more attainable who can love him back!

Sorry, I just don’t see how the guy in this situation is more noble than the girl — both are going after the unattainable. And in real life it probably happens more often that the girl is talking not about guys she’s dating who are treating her badly, but guys she would like to date –and he’s probably disingeniously doing the same thing, so she has no idea that he has a crush on her until he busts a move.

I have said it before and will continue to say it; the “friend zone” is nothing more than a guy who wants more, but is afraid to make a move.

Yes.
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Just as Samson wrote, he’s got no spine. He’s indecisive, and afraid to directly attempt to seduce her. He plays being her friend while pining to be her lover. He’s waiting for her in a moment of weakness to lower her standards and let her passively seduce him. I’ve seen this happen to several friends. This has never, ever, ever ended well. The woman ends up hating him for it. She feels tricked that he pretended to be her BFF only to wait until she was vulnerable to get sex from her. This contributes to the “ALL MEN ARE PIGS” shibboleth, when she realizes that yes, all those jerks she was dating all wanted to sex her up…but so does her so-called sensitive and caring “friend” who “understands her.” She thought he valued her for more than just for her body, but in the end, he was no different from all the other jerks.

Yes Yes Yes.

Heh I think Susan didn’t read it through the part where he says that “I will make you depend on me” that only shows that he is not doing a normal attraction game, but really playing games to erode her will and personality in order to get into her pants.

I will mention something that my little brother (a nice Alpha) does when confronted with a flirty girl that is dating a man and starts to get too friendly (of course in my culture that is rubbing your ass close to the manly parts and overly sexual things like that) he grab her ass, or boobs and/or attempt to kiss her. It might sound harsh (and its not something I find particularly nice of him but it does works) she will have to come clean. If she didn’t wanted more she will be offended and walk away so you will end of your torture and if she wants more she will act follow and if she was indeed just playing she will have to stop and make a mature choice. He told me once I asked him about it and he told me that if you think a woman is harboring feelings towards you the worst thing to do is letting things stay on the lukewarm zone you will not move on and the situation will get worst, specially if the woman in question is dating a policeman with a big gun and short temper, like it happened to him once.

I will say the same to women if a guy is overtly nice and goes out of his way to be with you don’t pretend that is just a friend and ask him right there what is going on, then decide if you want to date him, be friends with him or give some space to both of you, coming clean is better than having someone lurking around you to take advantage of a moment of weakness or be the guy telling everyone what a bitch you are because after all they did for you you ended up dating a “jerk” Honesty is the best policy, YMMV.

@SayWhaat:
“Yes Yes Yes.”
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The part of Keoni’s post you so vociferously agree with: “She thought he valued her for more than just for her body, but in the end, he was no different from all the other jerks”, it isn’t him agreeing with you. You missed the earlier line:
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“This contributes to the “ALL MEN ARE PIGS” shibboleth, when she realizes that yes, all those jerks she was dating all wanted to sex her up…but so does her so-called sensitive and caring “friend” who “understands her.” It’s the typical hamster, but on overdrive…

If “being nice” in order to get in her pants is manipulative, than so is wearing makeup and dressing nicely.

And do we have any empirical evidence that “chicks dig jerks?” Personal anecdotes don’t count.

The way these comments have played out gives credence to one of the darker speculations I have ever read about the typical modern female psyche. And that is that, for them “Truth and honesty” is hopelessly tangled up with “My gina is twitching”. Or that, “My gina is going numb, so what I am hearing must be false and is trying to lead me away from the Truth.”
It never seems to get asked what the beta guy really feels towards the girl (and by extension, how he might treat her long term). It is always 110% about how he makes her feel that defines his purported intentions. As if the guy was assumed to have no independent will or intentions at all.
It is this kind of thing that vaccinates a guys consience against the possibility of feeling guilty in The Arena.

@Visionary
Wrong again my best friend once told me that I looked like a horse and implied strongly that I would be the last woman on earth he will sleep with. That didn’t changed my feelings, neither bothered me. I’m not that vain to feel enraged by his honesty in fact it was a relief to know there was no chance in hell he will pull anything beyond that. So no, you are hamsterwheeling on your own.

@Susan
“I’ve gotta run out this p.m. so won’t check in again till later, but I do want to quickly say that I am 100% with Nice Guy here. “
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Get the BatSignal to Amanda Marcotte! Code red Nice Guy (TM) sympathy!
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There was once a discussion on her blog that went into this exact same strip. What was funny was how fast the discussion converged on how this guy was worse than the jerks. Here’s one comment that captures the essence of the discussion, where one male commenter was trying to be a little sympathetic to the guy and he got this response from another commenter:

“Therefore, based on the elimination of real regard and feelings, you only have emotional manipulation on the part of the man “friend” on the emotionally vulnerable woman.
And seriously, if Chet feels that doing an emotional version of Chinese water torture on people in order to get them to be in a romantic relationship with him is NORMAL, there’s something that we can all conclude about him.
He’s a creep.”
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So the poor deluded male character has become someone who has no real regard or feelings for the female character, a manipulator, and ultimately, a creep. It’s actually just projection, methinks. As opposed to being just a poor brainwashed typical male, brought up to just follow the rules, and someone who needs the red pill…

Wrong again my best friend once told me that I looked like a horse and implied strongly that I would be the last woman on earth he will sleep with. That didn’t changed my feelings, neither bothered me. I’m not that vain to feel enraged by his honesty in fact it was a relief to know there was no chance in hell he will pull anything beyond that. So no, you are hamsterwheeling on your own.

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You’re asserting that if most of these nice guys were to mention that their friends were sexually unappealing and “[looked] like horses” that their “friends” (who, btw, already have a defined proclivity for dating “jerks”) would be relieved? I very much doubt that, and I’d believe that it’s way more likely that he’d be labeled a “jerk” instead. Thus amazingly vaulting himself into a valued category.
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You seem to be adhering to the erroneous assumption that, in general, a man’s sexual value cannot change by his actions. “Hamsterwheeling” indeed.
-Visionary

@Visionary
I’m actually saying that you were wrong about the idea that if the nice guy were a true friend a woman will consider him sexually desirable.
You seem to be adhering to the erroneous assumption that, in general, a man’s sexual value cannot change by his actions. “Hamsterwheeling” indeed.
Mmm didn’t we discussed on the familiarity post that a man that enters the “friends zone” is very likely doomed and most of us agree, including men? So indeed a man actions can change his sexual value but the “friends zone” is rarely ever left once in it and that is why is so creepy to enter the “friends zone” winning trust on the fact that you are not sexually interested on the girl in question, hoping to get and upgrade after a moment of weakness.“Hamsterwheeling” right back at you.

Prefering a relationship with a mysterious and exciting bad boy, women see friend and lover as mutually exclusive.

Wrong. I’ve fallen for so many close male friends over the years, and none of them saw me as more than a friend. The ones who did admitted it years later, after they’d already moved on. I wish they’d told me when they still had feelings, because something definitely could have happened, but they said that they didn’t have the confidence.
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I still view friendship as a great way for romance to blossom, but the one time it happened, the guy backtracked. Now, in order to not get LJBF’d again, I make sure that my feelings to any guy I’m interested in are known. The Fake Boyfriend I’ve mentioned in earlier threads also wanted to try to be friends after our “break up”, and I said Hell No, because I didn’t want to get placed in the same situation as the guy who backtracked after we’d hooked up.
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The part of Keoni’s post you so vociferously agree with: “She thought he valued her for more than just for her body, but in the end, he was no different from all the other jerks”, it isn’t him agreeing with you.

No, I agreed with that part:

when she realizes that yes, all those jerks she was dating all wanted to sex her up…but so does her so-called sensitive and caring “friend” who “understands her.”

At least with the jerks, she can know better not to get dicked over.

@Stephenie

Your anaylsis is simply not how guys operate. No guys intends to enter the friend zone in an attempt to get a woman interested in him romantically. A guy becomes a friend because either he is too afraid to actually ask the girl out or she has already rejected him. The first one is vastly more common. Friendship is the best he can do. Of course he hopes it will develop into a romantic relationship, but that does not make him manipulative. He is doing his best to get a woman attracted to him. He is not hoping that he can “spring” at her in a moment of weakness. He hopes that she will genuinely find him attractive because he is a good friend, similar to how she finds the jerk attractive.

Further, most guys, if not all, who become friends in the hope it will lead to a romantic relationship are unaware that as soon as the woman labels him a friend, that there will never be a romantic relationship.

If you and other women find guys doing this creepy, then women cannot have male friends. Your male friends are only your friend because they want to “date” you or use you to “date” other people.

For the record, if I like a friend, it’s typically something that builds during the friendship. I don’t throw pick-up lines and run game on every attractive woman I see. If I’m looking for a relationship, I want to get to know her first. What is wrong with this?
Okay sorry for the comments I was thinking on someone else.

Nothing wrong. I say again if you start the friendship with no ulterior motives and the attraction happens is different than that be her friend. I mean the crutial question is I will be friends with this woman just because I like her? Or I will be friends with this woman so I can have sex with her at some point? Different takes.
Again go back at the guy gay that is your friend vs the gay guy that is trying to find a way to get you to agree to sex with him.
But again maybe that is why many straight men don’t like to be friends with gay men, if what Sp. the Duck said is right they know/think that they want to get on their pants at some point so no to “friendship”.

I still view friendship as a great way for romance to blossom,
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Well…then you are a rarity. Generally speaking, I think this is a very bad tactic for any guy to use….trying to establish a friendship first and then switch gears to romance/sexual relationship. 9 times of out of 10 it simply won’t work. In my view, it is critical that a guy establish the interest is romantic/sexual right away. Once he is “friendzoned” best bet is to move on.

In my view, it is critical that a guy establish the interest is romantic/sexual right away.

Like I said, it’s important that the guy make his interest known. He doesn’t get to complain otherwise.
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Whether this happens at the beginning or over the course of a friendship, the moment he tells her he wants more is the moment she starts considering it.

Stephanie,

In regard to motives, I don’t necessarily go in knowing what the motive is. It’s simple exploration. It’s usually not a crush, but more of a “hey, let’s see where this goes”. If I don’t like her, I’ll jet. If I like her, I like her. But by the time I know I like her, she sees me as a ‘buddy buddy’ guy. See the predicament? It’s almost as if you need to be overtly sexual right off the bat. Perhaps I should pursue a strategy of pursuit based on looks alone, and then ‘dump her’ if I don’t like her as a person. I may end of being one of those “assholes”, but hey, sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do to win.

And yes, it is possible for a male to have female platonic friends that he has no romantic interest in. Only if they’re physically unattractive. If she’s attractive, he still wants to bone her if he gets the chance. I know I’ve had platonic female friends take interest in me, but I’ve had to turn them down for this reason. It always sucks.

Gay guys? I’ve had a gay friend before, but really he was more of a friend of a female friend of mine. Nice enough guy, but I distanced myself when he got drunk and grabbed my ass a couple times. That shit ain’t cool. Not to mention, gay and straight males tend to have divergent interests in a lot of cases.

Ms Rawlings

Thank you for coming up with the analogy (for a guy sincerely acting nice towads a girl he fancies) of a gay guy pretending to be simply a “friend” of a straight guy, when all along, he wanted to get his dick brown.
I say thank you because you gave away more than you probably wanted. See, straight guys have zero interest in gay sex. And that is if they are open-minded.
What you are telling us here is that beta males are regarded by females the exact same way that gays are regarded by straight males…. ” I can usually tolerate your bare existence but if you ever act like you want to touch me then you deserved to die”.
Keep it up, babe. The message is definitely getting thru. At this rate, the last guy with benign intentions towads females will achieve irreversible enlightenment within 3 – 4 years.
Welcome to the Jungle.

Now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure that I just described courting.

Pardon me but I think that even in courting it was clear from the very beginning that the guy was interested on courting=a romantic relationship so it was slow and measure but the intention was clear.

Well guys I guess that if you needed an excuse to be a jerk to women I guess you have it now.

Is funny how my husband was one of you and yet he pretty much accepted that he should had made his intentions clear from the beginning and learned from the times on college and HS where this didn’t worked without considering become a jerk to women, in fact the fact that he was very nice to me won me over, the difference? He was a nice guy that MADE CLEAR he wanted me from the moment we entered in contact, why is so hard to understand that you can be nice and honest at the same time is baffling.

Well that is the same issue with Nice Guy TM strategy, you were friendly towards him because he was supposedly not interesting on you on that way, but if he would had showed that he liked you that way you might had no giving him the chance of grabbing your ass. The thing is all men here will understand you, while we women are evil for doing the same, double standards indeed.

It was pretty clear from the start that I was straight. I started avoiding him because he kept repeating the same actions even though I told him to fuck off with doing that. I don’t grab my female friend’s asses repeatedly after them admitting to disinterest. Nor do I call them bitches/evil/etc for it. Where did you get this crazy idea?

I deal with fat, ugly females at work. Beyond Platonic. More like Unbridge-able Moat.
But then, I go to work only because I get paid extremely well for doing so. If the paying stopped the pretended tolerance of fuglies would as well.
I feel stupid for even falling for writing this.

If the paying stopped the pretended tolerance of fuglies would as well.

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Clearly, the bulk of your paycheck goes towards forcing you to behave as a decent human being.
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Your lack of success with women has less to do with your “beta” status than you realize.

The cartoon itself is pretty spot-on – it’s the beta male’s version of the woman who plays fuckbuddy to a guy, hoping he’ll catch feelings and make her a full-fledged girlfriend. The guy hopes that by showing enough support and attention, she’ll realize his true love and let him into her bed.
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I think Stephenie and others are reading too much into the intentionality of the guy – it is subconscious and not intended to be harmful. He takes what he can get from the woman he loves, because it seems better than nothing. If he had game he’d know that the best he could do was to pull a takeaway, but even today that’s esoteric knowledge.

I had no idea if she meant a real jerk of she just called him jerk because the Nice Guy decided that jerk=Men that are banging her that are not me.

I think you just touched on a really important point. I can think of so many instances with couples I know where the guy gets the girl, and he is honestly not a jerk. However, he is often extraverted. Jerks are often extraverts. But not all extraverts are jerks, even if they’re the life of the party. I’m sure some of the jerk labelling is a product of jealousy. Although some of the guys I know who’ve screwed the most women, and often the most attractive women, are indeed jerks. So I do believe there is some inherent attraction towards jerky qualities with women, particularly for good-looking women.

But when you look at some of the embittered guys in the manosphere, you can’t exactly say that all guys who aren’t getting a piece are “nice guys” either. Some of them are actually pretty nasty and sociopathic. But in this case, I think it is more often a matter of becoming assholes as a product of their life experiences.

Keep it up, babe. The message is definitely getting thru. At this rate, the last guy with benign intentions towads females will achieve irreversible enlightenment within 3 – 4 years. Welcome to the Jungle.

That’s pure gold!

But when you look at some of the embittered guys in the manosphere, you can’t exactly say that all guys who aren’t getting a piece are “nice guys” either. Some of them are actually pretty nasty and sociopathic.

Heh maybe we should have Susan do a I post: I’m a real Nice Guy or I’m a borderline sociopath?

Of course not sure if that is actually possible most jerks and Alphas do have sociopathic tendencies: narcissism, lack of empathy, how come a guy that is a sociopath is not getting laid? I mean no to offend the ladies but so far this blog is full of evidence that it seems that this are the types to attract the most ,Idiotic I will say, women so I guess some of them are sociopaths without Game?

“I will think that for the purposes of this example the equivalent will be dating a guy just for his money, she will be after something and only pretend to be in love with him to gain it, pretending to be a friend to get on someone pants is not different, YMMV.”
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I think what you are not getting, and it’s apparently been colored by your personal experience, is that in most of these LJBF cases, the man is DEEPLY in love with the woman. It’s not a trick of the tail to get close to her so he can ramp up for a seduction and then pump and dump, it’s a serious one-itis case.
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If a woman can’t reciprocate the feelings he has, he has every right (and owes it to himself) to get out of the relationship. For you to think he was just shallow or bitter or “only wanted to get in my pants” is to assign moral blame that doesn’t exist. He would have loved to have your friendship but at some point he can’t take the frustration of sexual blockage.
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Retrenched,
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“Yeah, I would say that chicks do indeed dig “jerks” more than “nice guys”. Why? Because the “jerks” have things going for them that “nice guys” don’t. Such as…”
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This comes up a lot as a rationalization of chicks digging jerks, and it’s an incomplete analysis. The fact is…it’s both. Chicks dig the traits associated with jerks, and they dig jerkdom itself. It’s been scientifically demonstrated that women are attracted, generally speaking, to the dark triad. Talk to a few honest women and you’ll get some hamsterism about “I want a man I know can protect me” which is code for “he may be a jerk but he’s my jerk.”
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“Mmm also does this means that a husband/boyfriend shouldn’t allow his wife/girlfriend to have male friends? Just curious about how guys see other guys that are friends with their beloved.”
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Oh please. Women need to come to terms with the fact that a significant portion of men they socialize with want to f$#% them. They shouldn’t flatter themselves by thinking everybody wants their booty, but they need to be cogniscent of the fact that guys are going to have sexual thoughts about them. That doesn’t make guys pigs, unless they are making moves on a bro’s wife in which case they are out of the man club.

Stephenie is really undoing most of the goodwill she has painstakingly built here over the last few months.

SayWhaat,
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“It’s only selfish if she is aware of his feelings in the first place.
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This is never a good excuse. Women need to learn game too, so they can tell when their orbiters are interested. Seriously it’s not that difficult. Susan wrote a post on it:
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http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/08/03/relationshipstrategies/is-your-best-guy-friend-thinking-of-you-with-his-right-hand/
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I’m told women are the more social and perceptive sex, and then I meet significant numbers of women who claim ignorance about whether a man likes them or not. Pick a side and stick with it.

“I really, really, really, have a hard time believing that my male friends want anything from me aside from my platonic company. I will have to really let this one sink. Call it hamster wheel will if you want to, but is a part of this gender honest talk is hard for me to swallow.”

ROFL! You have just dished out an ample amount of helpful, honest gender talk on this thread.

Apparently Ms. Rowling is heavily invested in the idea that nice guys don’t actually exist.

I would say this is how most women view ‘nice guys’/beta males. Not necessarily with malice. They just don’t exist. That, or they exist, but only as asexual beings.

lol..looks like Stephanie has to swallow a red pill of her own. At least this one is not as bitter as the ones I had to swallow.

Heh possibly.

Stephenie is really undoing most of the goodwill she has painstakingly built here over the last few months.

How so?

Apparently Ms. Rowling is heavily invested in the idea that nice guys don’t actually exist.

I asked because you guys clearly had said many times that wanting to bang a woman is not the same than wanting them for a relationship. How come I’m in the wrong now for asking how different is?

I would say this is how most women view ‘nice guys’/beta males. Not necessarily with malice. They just don’t exist. That, or they exist, but only as asexual beings.

Had I mentioned that I married a beta male that I currently bang on a regular basis, like twice a day and more on holidays. I see guys that don’t show sexual interests as…guys with no sexual interest. It is that so hard to understand?

Stephanie…you’re ignoring the context of the actual dialog and narration of the comic and projecting your own experiences with your “friend” who became you’re husband.

I think Susan fell for the same thing as well in asserting her support for the “NICE GUYS.”

You’re essentially playing NAGFALT – Not All Guy Friends Are Like That.

Have you not seen “When Harry Met Sally?” Pay attention to what Billy Crystal tells Meg Ryan about male/female friendships.

Harry: You realize of course that we could never be friends.
Sally: Why not?
Harry: What I’m saying is — and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form — is that men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally: That’s not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry: No you don’t.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: No you don’t.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You say I’m having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I’m saying is they all want to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry: Nah, we pretty much want to nail ‘em too.

“I asked because you guys clearly had said many times that wanting to bang a woman is not the same than wanting them for a relationship. How come I’m in the wrong now for asking how different is?”
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Let me clarify. A man’s sexual hardware will function in the absence of love. A man’s love apparatus does not function without sex in the picture. In other words, if he wants you to be his girlfriend, it follows that he will want to bang you; the converse is not true.
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You are assuming that because a “friend” wants to bang you, that’s all he wants. That’s totally backwards; a man in love wants a woman’s mind, body and soul.
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The female idea of being “in love” appears to comprise “he gives me tingles.” Whereas a man in love wants to give a woman material and emotional resources. It appears female love is more shallow than male love.

The female idea of being “in love” appears to comprise “he gives me tingles.” Whereas a man in love wants to give a woman material and emotional resources. It appears female love is more shallow than male love.

It seems that men are incapable of platonic love then, loving something without desiring. That is why women feel bad when they want a relationship with a man that only wants sex. When it seems to me for a man not being seeing as a desired for sex what makes them feel bad. That is the point were we are different, but is not shallow is more like emotions are for women as sex is for men.

I asked because you guys clearly had said many times that wanting to bang a woman is not the same than wanting them for a relationship. How come I’m in the wrong now for asking how different is?
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I’m not sure what your confusion is. Guys will see certain girls as “relationship material”. Wanting to bang them goes without saying. Then there is another category of girls who are ONLY desired for banging and nothing else.

“The thing you need to understand is that young men, especially Americans, have been socialized to never show any sexual interest. The alphas and the jerks ignore that rule and get away with it (in part because they have practice at it), but the betas either were told that demonstrating sexual interest was wrong or they aren’t able to transgress the social disapproval.”
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Maybe things are a little more “rough” and out in the open in the DomRep.
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In any case, American guys need to learn game, the whole lot of them. Not the whole bible, just qualification, posture, controlled sexual tension, passing shit tests and anti-oneitis innoculation. That will bring most of them up to the level of average men two or three generations ago.

This. This is the disconnect.
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The thing you need to understand is that young men, especially Americans, have been socialized to never show any sexual interest. The alphas and the jerks ignore that rule and get away with it (in part because they have practice at it), but the betas either were told that demonstrating sexual interest was wrong or they aren’t able to transgress the social disapproval.

I get that, I do. But what makes you think that women are socialized to know this? I mean, again women can love deeply without desiring sex so unless someone (a brother, or a father) tells them different or explains this hard truth they are going to assume that a male friend is seeing them the same way: no sexual.

I’m not sure what your confusion is. Guys will see certain girls as “relationship material”. Wanting to bang them goes without saying. Then there is another category of girls who are ONLY desired for banging and nothing else.

Yes, but then I got chastised for assuming that a guy that makes friendship with you is not placing you on the ONLY desired to bang pile. That is my confusion
Then the lesson for me here is: that a man that makes the effort to be your friend in hopes to have sex never sees you as only for sex? Did I got it this time?

“The thing you need to understand is that young men, especially Americans, have been socialized to never show any sexual interest.
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BINGO!!!!!!!!! I think this is especially true for Gen X men as we were the first generation to be raised after feminism had its impact on society. The most extreme ludicrous messages of course are the sorts of “all penetrative sex is rape” but I think that mentality permeated society in that male sexual desire and the expression of it was made into something bad. Therefore, we were supposed to repress it, and hide it. I mean it is just crazy when you have to think twice if telling some girl in the office she looks pretty in the new outfit is going to get you reported to HR. The great irony is that many women apparently expect you to switch gears between this totally asexual being during one part of the day, and then during another to effectively communicate your sexual interest. It is what it is.

Maybe things are a little more “rough” and out in the open in the DomRep.

Oh true. Things are a loss less…politically correct I guess.

Few guys try the nice guy thing must men will at least show you up front what they are after I guess the difference is that in my country being a sexual being is not demonized for guys?

Because it’s all about your needs, not his.

And it should be about his needs only?

@GudEnuf

Oh God I feel like you (all men here) are messing with my head. Which is which? Do men want to bang all women including their female friends or do men can have platonic love for their female friends?

Do men want to bang all women including their female friends or do men can have platonic love for their female friends?

Of course we do. Here’s a Red Pill, take it.

Much of mankind’s greatest creations were a result of a man’s demonstrating to a woman how much he loved her.

I agree with that. But don’t downplay a good woman’s love. Just because those are not as plenty as they were doesn’t mean we are not capable of great feats for a man we love.

I thought Roissy was over the top when he said women hate, HATE betas. But then even the nicest women show nothing less than contempt for betas and prove him right.

How many times had I said that my husband is what you describe a Beta and I married him how can I hate him? Again you are interpreting no sexual interest=hate. Not the same thing, for us women at least.

The thing we usually call “love” has been theorized to consist of three parts:
1. Sexual Lust
2. Attraction: Falling in Love/Limerance
3. Attachment: Pair-Bonding
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You can read Athol Kay’s explanation or the Wikipedia summary.
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They can occur in any order. Since the sexual component is testosterone-driven, males will tend to gravitate towards that first and gradually move towards the second and third. The evidence is more complex for female behavior, but the second state is the one that has been immortalized in all the films.
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The “Be friends first” strategy attempts to go for the third first and then pick up the other two.
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I get that, I do. But what makes you think that women are socialized to know this?

Oh, I don’t think that the women are socialized to know it either. Selling fairy-princesses to little girls is a billion dollar industry, after all.

Stephanie,

I wish I could post a Venn diagram in the comments section to show you, in simple terms, all the different possibilities. I’ll try and list them out.

1) Purely platonic friendships where the guy has no sex on the brain. This is only possible when he doesn’t find you sexually attractive. However, just because he hasn’t made a move, you shouldn’t make assumptions. Your ‘gay friend’ most certainly falls into this category.

2) Sexual attraction + friendship (the overlap between 1 and 2). Yep, he secretly wants to bone you, but there’s a good chance he thinks you’d be relationship material as well. Now, he may be testing the waters with other women and taking his chances with them, but be aware that he is probably open to the idea of something happening between you two, especially if your bond is strong. Additionally, if your friendship is that strong, he will be even more afraid of rejection, thus more apprehensive about making the moves, as he feels there is a lot at stake. This, by the way, is the kind of guy you could count on most for commitment.

3) Your male friend who wants sex from you, but wouldn’t consider a relationship. Well…chances are, he’s not much of a friend to begin with. If he only hangs around you because he wants sex, you need to re-evaluate your friendship with him.

4) Outside of the friendship sphere, there’s girls who a guy wants to have sex with, but doesn’t want anything to do with them otherwise. This only works when he doesn’t respect the woman. A good example would be going to the strip club to get a handjob, where I really don’t want to hear about her life story, coke habit, or workplace politics.

How many times had I said that my husband is what you describe a Beta and I married him how can I hate him? Again you are interpreting no sexual interest=hate.

Are you saying you have no sexual interest in your husband but you still married him? That’s a scary thought.

Stephanie, it was this post:

How many times had I said that my husband is what you describe a Beta and I married him how can I hate him? Again you are interpreting no sexual interest=hate. Not the same thing, for us women at least.

Perhaps I’m misinterpreting, but you made it sound like you don’t hate your husband, but at the same time have no sexual interest in him.

@Chico

Sorry English is not my first language. But come on give me some credit what kind of idiot marries a man without having sexual interest on him? I know I’m a bit daft on some male ideas but even the most clueless woman is at bit aware of the important things that should drive you to say the I do…me thinks.

Heh comment from my husband.

He asked me what was I discussing on the net so passionately and I told him about the male-female friendship thing and he told me that all of you need a cold shower, that yes sometimes hanging out with a female friend the reptilian brain goes “Oh you could bang that!” but is barely a moment and always pass. Of course I also asked him if he would had turned down if one of his female friends would had offered him sex and he told me that if he was single and she was single probably not.

So yeah, although we already had this talk before there was article on Jezebel that had a lot commenter claiming that is a lie that women get all the sex they wanted because a lot of them had several stories of failed attempts at seduction and he told me that there most be something wrong with them, because he told me that he single and a woman single that he at least knew he wouldn’t turn down sex if she offered.

So yeah, I love this blog! Aside from some nasty commenters is always fun to learn about what the other half of the world thinks, thanks guys !

To Chico’s 2) I’d add that a man won’t have a strong desire to bang a female friend if he is sexually satisfied by other women. He won’t be blind to her attractiveness, but a man with options isn’t going to throw away a good friendship just for a quick lay.

@Stephenie- think of it like this…. Its like a football (american football) game. MEN play offense, WOMEN play defense. A “touchdown” is different for every guy, but it ALWAYS involves sex or some sexual act if the guy invests HIS time in a woman. Maybe for one guy a touchdown will be sex AND a relationship, maybe for another guy a touchdown is just sex, and for another it could be a threesome… depends on the guy. And maybe (if the guy has game) it involves sex with a female friend OF THE FEMALE FRIEND (thats probably the ONLY TIME a platonic non sexual relationship btwn male and female will happen bc he wants a better girl… If the guy wants to bang his platonic female friend’s HOTTER FEMALE FRIENDS, and if he pulls that off, he will probably bang both for obvious reasons ie STATUS +1)

So- OFFENSE, and DEFENSE…. See you mentioned women not being socialised to know these things but that is irrelevant. Why? Because u play DEFENSE. You dont have to really do much to get sex or a relationship (even uma thurman’s character in Kill Bill got laid while she was in a coma- albeit unintentionally). But us guys, if our OFFENCE sucks like the guy in this comic, he wont score a touchdown (and in his case, a touchdown is a marriage with his little angel perfect woman..and yes this includes sex).

Youve seen microscopic films of sperm cells fighting to get to the egg right? Well…. we men are basically that until we die or get ED (HELLO VIAGRA lol) or are gay.

Oh yeah one more thing… your husband isnt necessarily a beta, but defintions vary. He may have the rite combo of beta and game (he MUST) since you r attracted to him… even if he doesnt realize it. If u ever become unattracted to him (like if he does nothing but play xbox all day) then u shall know the meaning of beta. But im guessing he knows how to make u laugh, joke around, and belittle you JUST ENOUGH to keep it fun for both of u, and he prob keeps in ok shape= NOT beta…

Stephenie is confused (or feigning confusion) because she’s not separating “love” into Eros (lust)/agape (romance or integration)/Philio (brotherhood).
I was really confused.

“Platonic love” is Philio and unrelated to sex or romance. Male-female platonic love exists but only when it is mutual.

I think you forgot the part where women do this very early on the relationship if a guy sells itself as Philios most women will place him on the philios box and lock the box and built a emotional connection with him under that premise. Now if the guy seeks Eros later on with no warning then the woman is probably going to have a hard time opening the box of Philios, if the guy would had make a clear show that his intentions were to get the box Philios to try and go into Eros at some point, then the woman could at least choose to not lock the Philios box so he can jump into Eros box at some point or indeed deny access to Philios box.
To use another example Is like you labeling a woman a slut because she gave it away too fast and/or to too many men (she behaves as a slut so she gets the proper label) and then the woman later wanting to marry you at some point, because she gave you sex. Not how it works as far as I know.

To judge from the divorce rates and marital forums, a large number of American women.

Ouch, no touching that one.

Ooooohh, in absentia whiteknighting. Is he going to come beat us up too?

It was mostly a tongue in cheek comment, hence the Heh at the beginning.

In any case I don’t see what the point of continuing the discussion is. Stephenie was clearly burned in the past by some dude(s) running a failed experiment in crypto-friendship game, and no amount of debate is going to move her towards understanding the position of LJBF’d men.

Wrong again. First if I was dead set in not trying to see things your (men’s) way I would just use the “agree to disagree” excuse on move on, second its not a matter of being burned out, completely. But is also a matter of behavior.
I give friendship in exchange of friendship. I give love on exchange of love I give sex on exchange of sex and I want to elaborate on this point given that it seems the most important for men.

If I came here saying that I have sex with my husband in exchange of…a diamond ring/new car/he listens to me you You will probably think of me as a whore (in case of the listening to me an emotional whore) and you will be totally right, but if I were a guy giving friendship on exchange of sex without even making sure my intentions to the girl I was expected to have sex with, then is the girl’s fault and mistake no wanting to give me what I wanted, specially if she does it out of the sheer fact that she sincerely though that her none sexual company was what he appeared to be seeking, neither she has the right to feel betrayed because she accepted the friendship with no knowledge of this sexual feelings.

Is my duty as female, to avoid hurting nice guys, so I should be aware that is very likely that all men that seek my company are indeed in search of sex and that the pleasure of my presence is inversely proportional to how much sex will they guy in question get from it, the company I provide has no value, if sex is not tied to it.
I accept it as the way it is, but you need to remember that till less than 24 hours ago I was under the delusion that men can value female company with no sex involved in the same way we do it, with some men and again women don’t think you are an insect, if they don’t want to have sex with you, they just think of you as friends, but then it looks like this is the worst insult for a man, not being see as needing sex from you personally.
I’m pretty much just letting all that new info sink.

Someguy weighs in, for whatever it is worth.

Nice work Badger, as usual. I like your new blog. That video by Alexyss Tylor is one of the best things I have ever seen.

I haven’t felt friend-zoned since high school, thank God. In my case, I thought I was being patient and loving by not applying pressure and letting things blossom, or some such nonsense. Of course I was afraid of rejection. And yes, I think that the messages young men receive to be unoffensive and respectful do contribute to this.

I have quite a few female friends. Some are unattractive (to me). I don’t want to sleep with them and that’s that.

On the other hand, some of these women are very attractive. Some of these hotties are in relationships and some are not. The ones in relationships are off-limits (Chapter 2 of the Someguy Code). Those who are not could potentially turn into something else, but I am hardly pining for it. I tend to keep several poles in the water.

As has been mentioned here or elsewhere, hot female friends can help validate men in the eyes of other women. It think it’s also good to have attractive female friends because it naturally makes you more at ease with women in general, and thereby more attractive to women in general.

So yes, NAMALT and some of us DO find value in having female friends, whether attractive or not (to us).

But how much value? This is the issue for me. Because in my case, I feel that my female friends generally value my friendship MORE than I do theirs. I don’t call them very often. They call me though. They get frustrated if they go a long time without seeing me. I know what they want: They want to TALK. They want to empty the contents of their heads onto me, their male friend. They want the male perspective on things, because they find men baffling. They want me to explain my opinion on current events. They want me to advise them on their problems and play Coach Someguy when their self-esteem is in the gutter. They want me to say something with authority so they can act decisively. They want me to make them laugh and laugh. Christ, sometimes they even want me to help them decide what to eat. Of course I like them too. They can be funny and surprising and considerate and insightful. But I can’t listen for as long as they want to talk, and while their company is nice, I ultimately find male friendships more fulfilling, so I end up limiting these encounters. I believe Susan once wrote on this blog something to the effect of: “Many women LOVE to have a male BFF!” So I ask: How many men really LOVE to have a female BFF?

Also, one of my very best friends in the world is gay. Gay people can be fucking HILARIOUS. There’s no need to fear the gay.

Actually, a woman did try to friend-zone me about a year ago, after we had slept together. She clealy wanted to hang out with me and enjoy my company, but had apparently cooled to me physically. I asked her what was going on and she said she didn’t want any commitment. Of course I hadn’t asked about that and I said that was fine, but I also told her that I all the talking and relating without sex was basically the same — in my view as a man — as if I went over to her house, fucked her, got my things and left.

She was baffled and I took my ball (friendship) and went home.

Susan, it’s like a female strategy executed by a man. Therein lies part of the problem?

As FB said: when making women’s ginas tingle is outlawed, only outlaws will make women’s ginas tingle.

It’s not at all hard to get out of the Friend Zone. There is 100 percent sure-fire way to get a woman homing in on you like a laser-guided Hellfire missile. Just nail her most attractive girlfriend who she considers to be less attractive than she is while simultaneously maintaining your friendship with her. The key is to never fight her instincts, but flow with them instead.

Learn to flow like water, grasshoppers.

Mike C: No offense to GudEnuf, but if you are trying to understand how the typical guy thinks, I would pretty much ignore 99% of what he says. IIRC, for quite awhile there was an open question whether he was a guy or girl, and I think he has pretty much allowed feminist ideology to confuse natural male thoughts.

Wtf? Who thought I was a woman?

This supposed “red pill” assertion that men never want to be platonic friends with women is just another self-serving delusion. Men who only want women for sex want to see themselves as normal, and other men who have platonic friendgirls challenge his normalcy. So to protect his delusion of normalcy, the man rationalizes: “I bet he’s only pretending to be her friend for sex”. No evidence can falsify this delusion, so a man can pretend he’s normal for life.