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Wear This Not That

In a recent post, I suggested that your makeup style sends specific messages to guys about your sexual availability and intentions. That led to a discussion about women’s clothing as well. collegeslacker had this to say:

I know for a fact I judge a girl’s values or lack thereof based on what she is wearing. Tight dress that might accidentally show off some cooch? Rides the carousel. Jeans and a nice, not too flashy top? Probably not a slut, probably wants a relationship. I’m usually right about 99.99% of the time.

I approach all of them regardless, but I know some beta dudes who are definitely intimidated by extremely done up girls and many of my player friends won’t go after the less dressed up girls.

What you’re wearing definitely communicates what you seem to be seeking regardless of what you actually are seeking.

This last piece is critical. Many women are getting tripped up by wearing outfits that say slut, when what they want to say is girlfriend. Why does this happen? Isn’t this just a matter of common sense?

I believe there are several reasons young women are sending the wrong messages:

1. Popular fashion magazines tend to feature the sexiest clothing possible without going over into slutty lingerie territory.

2. Fashion models tend to be skinny and flat-chested. What looks innocent on them may appear extremely seductive on a woman with C cups or a nice round booty.

3. Celebrities wear lots of outrageous clothing, and the rest of us mistakenly think we can pull off the same look.

4. Women get attention from cute guys when they show cleavage or mile-high legs. They focus on the short-term validation without considering whether those cute guys are looking to date or get laid.

5. Women are largely unaware that dressing in an extremely provocative fashion will scare away men who are relationship-oriented. Part of this is intimidation, and part of it is their disqualifying themselves as relationship material.

 

Here’s what Dave Chappelle has to say:

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBPaenkxdg

 

Rich Santos, a dating blogger I really like at Marie Claire, recently wrote about the top fashion mistakes women make:

  • Sure, I admit that guys have fixation with cleavage, but we don’t always like when it’s popping out of a top.  We have a tough enough time keeping our eyes level, and excessive cleavage just provides another challenge.  Plus, cleavage is most effective when there’s a little hint of it, and then we are left to imagine what else is there.  Sadly, most of my friends and I agree that once we’ve seen the boobs, the mystery is gone.  The tiny amount of cleavage that led up to that is what really what we found intriguing.
  • Another problem with excessive cleavage is that it takes the focus off of the things about you that matter: your face, what you actually have to say, etc.  If a girl is running around with too much cleavage hanging out, we’ll assume that she’s trying to make up for a weakness in some other part of herself-and that she really is craving attention.
  • Class is a very attractive trait in a woman, and skirts that are too short, or slutty stilettos, etc, will chip away at a girl’s class. If I see a girl who is dressed slutty, I’m immediately struck with intimidation-the same kind I get around strippers.
  • I’ll also worry about who else she has slept with-and you know I always fear STDs.
  • Slutty apparel will also make it look like a woman is not much of a challenge, and we all like a challenge.

Confused about which outfits send which messages? Start by channeling her:

instead of her:

Cocktail Dress:

Wear this dress:

not that dress:

Going out top:

Wear these:

Not these:

Jeans:

Rock this look:

Not this look:

Sundress:

Wear this:Not that:

 

Keep it classy. If you have to ask if it’s slutty, it is. You can bring out the sluttastic wear once you’ve locked it down, for his private enjoyment.

And never violate the 1 in 3 Rule:

You may highlight boobs, butt or legs, but never more than one with the same outfit.

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  • dream puppy

    2. Fashion models tend to be skinny and flat-chested. What looks innocent on them may appear extremely seductive on a woman with C cups or a nice round booty.

    This just can’t be said enough. Some things that look nice on flat girls just looks vulgar on women with breasts. I have tried wearing a push up bra with a low cut top and I just look like a hooker. And the one time I did go out like that, I was also treated like one.

    The 1 in 3 rule is a good one. You can either wear something short, or something low cut. Another good rule, is to wear a baggy shirt if you are wearing a very short bottom, or vice versa.

    The good thing about fashion, as of late, is that it is more about a good aesthetic than attracting men.

  • ECT

    I tend to play up the tatas when i go out, but i don’t think I have em hanging out for world to see. hubby yays/nays things. But he’s a tata guy so maybe I’m showing more than I should? don’t know. I like casual flirty. I can’t pull off the super sexy tops so I don’t bother. Besides, sometimes a nice white tshirt is more enticing then a low cut top :D

    What bugs me clothing wise is that adult styles are steadily trickling down into young girls/teen fashion. There is absolutely NO reason my 4 year old should have tops that give illusion of a chest. 8 year olds don’t need “sexy” clothes either. Nor do 13/14 year olds, probably not 18 year olds either. But that’s what is out there.*ICK*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ECT
      Last year I stopped into Babies R Us to pick up a shower gift, and headed over to the little girl outfits. I swear, there were halter tops for infants, and also midriff tops. How twisted is that? We have reached the point where we are sexualizing babies.

      Re the tatas, I would say that if you’re in a relationship or married, your partner can vote and that should be your guideline. In my case, I would respect a veto, though I’ve never gotten one. I have, however, vetoed many an outfit my daughter tried to get away with. I recall when she was in middle school she wanted to buy some jeans from Abercrombie and Fitch that had a zipper only one inch long. It would not even have covered her pubic hair! I put my foot down, but many other moms don’t. And it’s a slippery slope – you can’t afford to set a precedent.

  • http://www.2centtab.blogspot.com Samson

    The Dave Chappelle video is one of my favorites. You may not be trying to convey a certain message, but what you wear and how you wear it definitely says a lot.

  • Workshy Joe

    When I see a provocatively dressed woman these days I don’t think “she wants sex”, I think “she wants attention”. Big difference.

    If I was a single man on the prowl again, I’d avoid women in the “slut uniform” because they are more likey to be attention-whores than bona fide (boner fide?) whores with the credentials.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Ditto on what Samson said; Dave Chappelle is hands down one of my all-time fave comics; have you seen his “Rick James” series? LMAO!!! “Charlie Murphy!”.

    Anyway, Ms. Walsh, as per usual great topic, and as it turns out great minds do indeed think alike; from the newest latest at the O-Files:

    “Having said all that though, there are some things that Women who are more middling of the pack on the scale can do to make themselves more attractive on the market. I’m not anywhere near a Ladies’ consultant on this score, but I’ll just mention a few things based on my experience as a Brotha, and that of other Brothas I’ve known over the years:

    1. Smile – Men do NOT want to see your scowl, which is something Sistas have seem to have perfected. They should consider getting it trademarked so at the least they’ll make some money off of it. Seriously, scowling and “mean mugging” all the time, is a serious bonerkiller for 99.7% of Brothas out there. Nobody’s saying you have to be Koolaid cheesin’ 24/7 here, but if everytime you go out people are going in the other direction away from you, whether you want them to or not, you might consider taking a look in the mirror, because you’re likely Scowling at the World.

    2. Feminine Wears – Men LOVE Women who wear dresses. Moreover, many Sistas have problems with wearing differing forms of pants anyway, since most of these garments are made for the behinds of White Women, which, as many as Sista knows and knows well, tend to be much flatter than their own, LOL. Dresses get around that problem, and makes Sistas look much more feminine, too. Now that we’re coming into the warm weather months, you should make it a point to wear dresses more. This also goes for getting the best possible hairstyle/makeup/perfume schemes that work for YOU. For some Sistas, wearing their hair Au Natural simply doesn’t work, and even for those it does work for, all styles aren’t equal; some can work the cute Afro-Puff(s), others can work locs, others can work cornrows, and some can even rock the Big Chop. For those Sistas who look best with a shorter style, and/or a relaxed style, coolbeans. Just whatever you do, make sure it fits your face and head, OK? And for God’s sake, put down those ridiculous blonde wigs/extensions/monstrosities!-trust me, people are laughing AT you when you wear stuff like that.

    3. Submissiveness – A huge sign of attraction to a Man, let me tell you. Plus, you’re much more approachable that way. Trust me, a Sista who comes off like a ball-busting shrike can and will run off many a Man, and then these same Sistas have the nerve to turnaround and demand to know why ain’t no Brothas “coming correct”, LMAO! Well, the answer to that one is easy, Ms. Thang – it’s because when a Man thinks of stepping to a Sista in the club or other social gathering, images of a fistfight with Jason Bourne doesn’t exactly come to mind. A Woman’s comportment can take her a long way in our age of “strong, independent” Sistas; tone down the Angela Davis routine, and be willing to defer to your Man (or the Man courting you), and watch things turnaround for the better overnight.”

    On “Girl Game” & Other SMP-Related Fallacies
    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/64818

    Keep on keepin’ on…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian
      Haha, you sure do have a way with words. Your point is serious, but your delivery is hilarious.

  • Jasmine

    I would like to know how men tend to viw women who wear tight clothes? I have larger breast and have never been comfortable showing much cleavage at all. So, I seem to always tend toward tighter clothes. I am not talking painted on by any means, but fitted. I like to show my arms as they are very toned and the shirts tend toward very fitted with close fitting jeans. Slutty or not? Most of the skin showing is arms. If I am wearing shorts they are not very short bit show a good portion of my quads. What do you all think?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Everything in the “not that” is damn sexy – the girls I would talk to first

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I wonder why this is ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami
      Would that still be true if you were looking to meet the mother of your children?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    tone down the Angela Davis routine,

    Heh I was wearing an afro a few months ago and a dark skinned gentleman used the “You look like Angela Davis” as pick up line, of course I told him I had no idea who she was (I’m Dominican we don’t know all about USA there) so is funny that you mention that.

  • Kurt

    Sometimes I see somewhat overweight girls out at bars or in other public places showing off a lot of cleavage. I assume that these women think that they have to show off their cleavage in order to attract a man, although in the process they do sometimes come across as promiscuous. A lot of guys won’t get into a relationship with a fat girl and showing all of the cleavage in the world isn’t going to impact this decision one bit. If those women really want to snag a guy who wants more than just cheap sex, they will lose weight and dress with a little more class.

  • Hope

    I had a similar convo with dream puppy a few days ago. Almost all of the outfits you said are good to wear are too revealing for me, at this stage of my life (out of college and working). I also live in Mormon central where all skirts above the knee are too short, and all backless to short-backed dresses are too revealing.

    And yeah, having boobs is problematic for a lot of clothes that look great before I try them on… and then the mega cleavage. No go.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope
      It’s funny you should say that the “wear this” outfits are too revealing. They obviously are for me as well. This is really for the young women looking to date. However, some of the classy looks, like Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon, are around 40 and still looking great. This is definitely one area where YMMV.

  • CSPB

    I think a good strategy for women is the retro girl-next-door look. You will be noticed in these by the “greater betas” that desire feminine by eschew sluttiness.
    One
    Two

    Obviously a bit of updating might be warranted, but I contend that a woman dressed in a average dress of the 1950s will be noticed for all the right reasons.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @CSPB
      Vintage dresses can look fantastic on women. I mean, a slim woman who found one of those actual dresses could look incredible in it. As I was writing this post, I came across some pics of January Jones as Betty Draper, and she really looks sexy. Clothes were more feminine 50 years ago, even while they revealed less.

  • Chico

    “Miss, you may not be a whore, but you are wearing a whore’s uniform.”

    I love it. I forwarded the same video to a friend of mine just a couple day’s ago.

    Dave Chappelle kicks ass. Homeless dude on a bus and Clayton Bigsby….classics.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ The Private Man

    For every solid piece of advice that Susan brings to young women, those idiot Kardashians bury it ten times over.

    The DNA-challenged girls on MTV’s Jersey Shore then covers the good advice with cement.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    For every solid piece of advice that Susan brings to young women, those idiot Kardashians bury it ten times over.

    The DNA-challenged girls on MTV’s Jersey Shore then covers the good advice with cement.

    That is why I really hope that when Susan does her book, she goes to Oprah. So maybe some pop culture can get a worth it advice once on a while.

  • Hope

    CSPB, love the 50s style dresses you linked. My issue is that all of those vintage styles I show my husband get shot down as ideas. He dislikes polka dots, bows (?!), and buttons and belts on dresses. That’s like 50s style dress in a nutshell! I guess he thinks they’re “granny” styles. Since I dress partially for him, I have to find modern styling without low cut front and with longer hemline.

    For other girls I think that style is super cute. It’s also coming back in fashion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He dislikes polka dots, bows (?!), and buttons and belts on dresses.

      Ha, some of my favorite things! Belts are fantastic on those of us cursed blessed with hourglass figures.

  • Lavazza

    The female definition of a whore is a woman who “sells” her goods cheaper than the other women in the herd (or does not belong to the herd). A woman will seldom call a woman who charges the same as her a whore, unless she has the misconception that she is charging more.

  • CSPB

    I am curious as to whether other men find the relatively modest, but shapely 1950s dresses totally hot in a feminine kind of way. To me this says “wife worthy!”

    Susan is exploring an interesting premise; that a woman should learn to dress to attract the kind of man she wants. Men are not very fashion conscious, but we know what we like and how a woman dresses reflects the traits that she values. It is a man’s perception of those traits that determine whether he approaches her and if he puts her in the pump-and-dump category.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Hope
    If you like the 50’s style in a way that looks modern you might try to go for Chuck’s style: http://www.agentlover.com/blog/2008/03/09/style-icons-kate-nash-and-pushing-daisies-chuck/
    http://www.google.com.do/search?q=chuck+dresses+pushing+daisies&hl=es-419&prmd=ivnsfdo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=oLWkTfaaCYjeiAKu8aXMCA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=559

    She was a character from a show called Pushing Daisies and I would kill to wear anything that she did. Also if you can rent the show on Netflix do so. It was perfect and it will lift your spirits in every episode.

    @Lavazza
    Totally true. The problem with women moving in herds is that there is constant power struggles, so name calling is a way to control them all by forcing them to conform to whatever the herd wants and to reject other herds to achieve herd supremacy, and even if they are generous and supportive of the women of the herd that are obeying the unspoken rules, when a woman of/or another herd is looking like wining they totally shred her, by any means necessary. Mean Girls is a good example of the herd mentality, YMMV.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Susan, since thats the girl Im going to talk to, chances are she might become the mother of my children, more than the girls I didnt talk to

    But if I was looking for the mother of my children, I would be looking at the eyes, not the clothes. And I wouldnt be looking for her at the pubs

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, since thats the girl Im going to talk to, chances are she might become the mother of my children, more than the girls I didnt talk to

      Well I was wondering if your strategy would shift as your priorities changed. I guess you answered that by saying that you wouldn’t find her in the pubs! Here’s what I want to know: If a woman is looking slutty at the bar, and you talk to her and she is nice and pleasant in her personality, would you put her in the dating pile or the pump and dump pile?

  • dream puppy
  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Susan, interesting question. I decide that after the pump / after some time getting to know her. If I get to know her and I dont like “her” before the pump, then the pump is not likely to happen, no matter how she´s dressed.

    Or in other words Im not putting her on a pile because of how shes dressed but according to how the chemistry and other factors work. If I like her, why “dump” her? I stretch that for a long/short period as long as it feels good.

    So reiterating if I know for sure the girl is only worth a pump & dump its not likely to happen, because chances are there are better options around her – girls I like more.

    That said, some girls advertise themselves for pump & dump, not only with clothing but also behavior, higly sexual, un- inhibited, fun and forgettable, and thats fun and fine and enjoyable too, but there are zero chances these girls are unaware of what they are looking for and getting, they are after the thrill and not looking for

    So for me the girl getting a tequila shot at the bar is advertising her as pump and dump regardless of what shes wearing. The girl devouring you with her eyes and looking at your mouth and not listening to whatever you say is pump n dump, regardless of what shes wearing.

    So… if you want to advertise yourself as pump and dump, wear damn sexy, get slightly drunk, jump on a table, then jump around when you see me and say you want to know me. Easy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So… if you want to advertise yourself as pump and dump, wear damn sexy, get slightly drunk, jump on a table, then jump around when you see me and say you want to know me. Easy.

      Hmmm, I’m hoping we won’t have any takers on this advice.

  • Anonymous

    The 50’s are over susan. you social conservatives lost big time. The only guys getting married are boring beta losers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous
      Would you care to elaborate? And I didn’t lose, I made out quite well, thanks.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I guess you answered that by saying that you wouldn’t find her in the pubs!

    I think its more likely to find a special person within a social network based of commonalities. Something related to the stuff I do for love.

    If I was a start wars fan, I would spend time at comic con and look for girls dressed as princess Leia or Chewbacca.

    The whole thing about hooking up and going to bars and meeting random people is that its light and it doesnt matter. Everything gets put to the top and only the superficial traits matter, sometimes more, sometimes less.

    You can find good people there, but its about jumping in a generic social pool where the only common thing you have with these people, is that you want a good time. So you get one. But its not like you´re going to watch the StarWars trilogy together the next morning.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    If I was a start wars fan, I would spend time at comic con and look for girls dressed as princess Leia or Chewbacca.

    I totally cosign this. I believe a big part of being a smart dater is knowing yourself first before, is easier to look and be selective if you know what core traits you have that you want to find someone to match with. I mean if you are a HUGE Star Wars fan, looking for a wife that doesn’t nag you for all the money you spent on the last Darth Vader costume is on the list of in negotiable. You can look for the hot one on the con later on and already have enough lines to make small talk.
    The problems with general places (and the reason I never endorsed Match.com, Craiglist or yahoo personals) is that is just generic people, unless you yourself are a generic person is very hard to find a mate among a sea of similar looking fish.

    Also Yohami. Do you live on USA or are still on Argentina?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Still in Argentina. I might move to London by the end of the year.

    Match.com is 100% pump and dump. You can only browse people by color hair and very irrelevant categories. Creating a proper dating site is on my huge never-ending todo-list.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Match.com is 100% pump and dump. You can only browse people by color hair and very irrelevant categories.

    I actually think Eharmony has a good system the problem is the pool of people is too small, given that Dr. Clark uses 29 variables to match he needs a ton of people for his system to work. Also he needs to make it cheaper to many people the system is too expensive for getting a few matches.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ The Private Man

    All of online dating (eHarmony excepted) can be used for pump and dumps. I concur that most profiles, male and female, are sadly generic and mediocre. However, this means that the truly interesting people stand out that much more. Of course, truly interesting is a subjective phrase. As well, the sheer numbers of people doing online dating means that success in finding a long term relationship is certainly possible, if very time consuming.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    dream puppy, I do wear tights and leggings, but I still need to wear the hemline around the knee or below. I really liked the pleated skirt of the one you linked, but it’s just a bit too short.

    This for example was one of my favorite skirts before it broke down (it was at least 5 years old). The top I wear in reverse because the real front was too revealing.

    It’s also really difficult to find stuff in that velvety material (which is thicker and lasts longer). The top is also breaking down on me these days.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hope you are beautiful! What a treat to see your photo!

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Susan
    Heh I just noticed that in less than two weeks you had been called slut groomer and loser social conservative. :)
    Is hatedom always this dissonant?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Is hatedom always this dissonant?

    Yes, due to group mentality: “If you are not one of us, you must be one of them”

    If you dont stand for a specific group, every other specific group can make you a target, because they confound you with the enemy. And in some ways, you are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami, @Clarence

      If you dont stand for a specific group, every other specific group can make you a target, because they confound you with the enemy. And in some ways, you are.

      I am proud to have a diverse portfolio of haters. I’ve been ignoring some of them for too long. I’m working on a post that may or may not bring out the sex pozzies – Abbot helped with a link today. To do that I’ve got to link to them, and that’s always a Pandora’s box. Still, it could be fun!

  • Clarence

    Darn it!

    I was hoping for a good ol female catfight, with lots of tears, attempts at shaming language, accusations of shaming langauge, the return of the Sex Pos Posse and much entertainment all around.

    Instead it looks like Susan’s commenters are acting like adults. Curses! ;)

  • Clarence

    I mean this is CLOTHING we are talking about women, for chrissake. Short of shoes and newborn babies what could possibly be more important? :P

  • GudEnuf

    Hmmm, I’m hoping we won’t have any takers on this advice.

    Someone should write a companion piece to Roosh’s Compliment and Cuddle.

  • Stephenie Rowling
  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yes, due to group mentality: “If you are not one of us, you must be one of them”

    Isn’t there a group mentality, if you are not against me, you are one of us?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Isn’t there a group mentality, if you are not against me, you are one of us?

      I have a hater who calls herself Sexy Pterodactyl – she blogs solely to spew venom at Roissy, as if he cares. When she started hating on me, I said, “I thought you would have been a fan, under the doctrine of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”” But she said no dice. I hate to say it but Roissy makes a hell of a lot more sense than she ever has.

  • http://collegeslacker.wordpress.com collegeslacker

    Thanks for the love Susan.

    Coincidentally, I posted about how to look fly over at my site. You got me thinking more, and in spirit of this whole how to dress theme going on, I think I’ll keep it going with a post about what girls shouldn’t wear. I’ve got a lot of pent up feelings about what passes for women’s fashion these days…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @collegeslacker

      That post Dressing Fresh for guys is fantastic:

      http://collegeslacker.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/dressing-fresh/

      My only quibble is that I have a soft spot for skinny jeans, but not on guys like yourself. Gotta have the whole hipster thing going on to pull them off.

  • Abbot
  • Will S.

    Susan, you really think that young women send messages they don’t intend to send (“the wrong messages”) with their clothing choices, rather than what they really, truly, subconsciously mean to send? I ha’e me dou’ts. I think, on some subconscious level, they must know what the hell they’re doing, even if they avoid letting their conscious brain know about it.

    To borrow from Dave Chapelle’s phrasing, if a woman is wearing a “ho’s uniform”, why shouldn’t we consider her a ho?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Will S.

      To borrow from Dave Chapelle’s phrasing, if a woman is wearing a “ho’s uniform”, why shouldn’t we consider her a ho?

      Right, but he described a woman whose ass is half visible, and whose boobs are popping out. In the outfits I featured in this post, the difference is far more subtle. Some of the outfits say “ho” but not all. I think that women consciously want to draw attention and admiration from men. I think they also underestimate how whorish men think they look. If they’re going for a carousel ride, the system will work as it’s supposed to for them. But I do think that some women fail to realize that they are both intimidating and trashy looking when they go out hoping to meet a good man, and that most good men will disqualify them. In other words, what they don’t understand is that they’re employing a losing strategy.

  • Abbot

    History
    .
    http://themadjewess.wordpress.com/tag/sluts/
    .
    Pick your era depending on what you want. They all still exist, like parallel universes, if you’re willing to travel to find it.

  • SayWhaat

    Belts are fantastic on those of us cursed blessed with hourglass figures.

    Ohhh can it. :P We should be proud to have hourglass figures. Normally I’m a jeans and t-shirt kinda girl but I love to play up my figure when I get the chance. Back in HS all my girlfriends were flat beanpoles and I always felt like the chubby one. Never got much male attention in my circles either. Now I know that I have a rockin’ bod, but it’s a double-edged sword when it comes to clothing. There are certain things my beanpole friends can wear and look awesome that I just can’t pull off (shapeless hipster clothing ;___; ).

    I agree that certain styles are making a comeback though. I love love LOVE anything that Zooey Deschanel wears, and Christina Hendricks’ costumes on Mad Men. My favored style for hourglass figures tends towards a ’40s film noir vibe – dramatic, but with a dash of boudoir and a hint of ’60s pinup. Stephenie mentioned Chuck’s costumes too, which I also adore.

    Although, I think you guys should give girls a break when it comes to clothing. The cut of one style may seem innocent on one girl and look completely different on another. Knowing and shopping for your body is hard. This is why it takes us hours. :3

    From personal experience, sometimes I have no idea what kind of messages my clothing sends. A couple years ago I was outside with friends visiting from out-of-state. It was a hot summer day and I was waiting for them to take a picture of something when this random guy walked by me and made a lewd comment about my rack right in front of them. I was wearing a sundress. Needless to say, I’ve never worn that dress again. But there’s a wide variety of clothing options between mini-skirts and nun’s habits that make it difficult for girls to ascertain the sexual gradient of a particular outfit’s appeal.

  • Mike C

    Here’s what I want to know: If a woman is looking slutty at the bar, and you talk to her and she is nice and pleasant in her personality, would you put her in the dating pile or the pump and dump pile?
    .
    Hard to say. Really need more info and interaction to make that call. When I was bouncing I would often be shocked to find out the girls who ended up being the freakiest sluts imaginable and it could be slutty dress or not slutty dress, and it could be nice and pleasant or bitchy.
    .
    Story from player land (my co-worker). Rolls up at my cubicle yesterday morning to tell me about the weekend (I’m eating as he tells me this). Tells me about this girl that he basically just tells “we’re going back to my place now” after enough signs she was interested (just met that night). She goes back to his place with her cousin, and his buddy and him proceed to bang both while high-fiving each other. He then shows me cell phone pictures of his dick in her mouth and his load on her face underneath her eye. I about throw up the bagel I’m eating. He then tells me that she told him to make sure she is up by 7:30 because she told her BOYFRIEND she would be home. You think that boyfriend even has a clue?
    .
    So what is my point? A good number of girls that are nothing but pump and dump material and it isn’t always obvious who they are from their dress and personality although I’d say slutty dress and narcissistic bitchy is usually more correlated with actual slutty behavior.
    .
    Any sensible guy before he makes that determination is essentially going to test for it just like women shit test for pussies, and for a guy that test is basically seeing how far he can take her sexually before she says I’m not going to do that or do that yet. That is going to determine which pile more then dress or demeanor. One of my most vivid memories with my GF is earlier on, maybe 2nd or 3rd date, and I’m pushing to see how far I can go and she basically says “No, no, no, we can’t do that”. I stopped pushing and she had immediately earned my respect, and gone into the serious dating pile.

    All that said, I’m going to assume slutty dress is more likely a pump and dump slut, and really for any guy who knows what’s up and what it really is like out there Gresham’s law has to be the operating principle. Assume pump and dump until proven otherwise. The alternative is you might get involved in a relationship with a girl who is letting alpha/player types blow their load on her face and take pictures of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He then tells me that she told him to make sure she is up by 7:30 because she told her BOYFRIEND she would be home. You think that boyfriend even has a clue?

      Well, if he doesn’t…..I mean, she was out all night. Also, any woman who bangs with another couple right there? The boyfriend can’t be in the dark about her true nature.

      Any sensible guy before he makes that determination is essentially going to test for it just like women shit test for pussies, and for a guy that test is basically seeing how far he can take her sexually before she says I’m not going to do that or do that yet.

      I remember Escarondito once gave girls here the advice, “Never do more than make out the first night.” I think that many women fail to grasp how powerful that self-restraint is in signaling relationship fitness. And of course there’s the benefit of weeding out the cads, who have no interest in a long makeout session ending with blue balls.

  • Abbot

    “if a woman is wearing a “ho’s uniform”, why shouldn’t we consider her a ho?”
    .
    If a man is wearing a business suit, why shouldn’t we consider him an educated person? He may not be, but when getting dressed he sure as heck knew what he was doing and the message his clothes would convey.
    .
    Presentation equals perception. Deal with it ladies.

  • OffTheCuff

    I don’t agree with all the slutty categorizations. The Kim K top shows less skin than the Reese W top, just that Reese is flat-chested and it looks like less. And the “slutty sundress” is nearly identical to the yellow one, except for the yellow model’s hair falls over her chest.

    Mrs. Cuff and some of her married friends occasionally wear low-cut tops and are busty (DD, D, and one I bet is an H) but they tend to be a narrow V, rather that low-cut and open shoulder-to-shoulder. In reality, us married folk don’t get out an socialize that much in public, so it’s not really advertising.

  • SayWhaat

    Re: dating sites.

    Several of my friends have found success on OkCupid, which I guess aims more towards the younger demographic. Also, there’s a new dating website at my school that only allows college students of certain universities to sign up and browse, with options to eliminate anyone from your school from your dating pool so that you don’t have to run into anyone you know. It’s all YMMV though.

  • Mike C

    Funny…
    .
    Right after I posted my comment I start skimming backwards and see collegeslacker’s recent post. I think the subject matter hits exactly on kinda what I was saying in my comment:
    .
    http://collegeslacker.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/my-destroyed-belief-in-the-good-girl/
    .
    Fast forward to today, when, at approximately 7:00 pm, my belief in the existence of a good girl was finally, totally crushed. Through hearsay and accidental admission on her part, I was informed she is seeing multiple dudes, and having sex with most of them. My good girl, my relic of female virtue, my last example of a girl worth more than fuckbuddy status has turned into a full on slut.
    .
    I’m not going to lie, I was absolutely shocked. The final and utter collapse of my fully invested belief in her as the last good girl is quite a mindfuck. I still can hardly believe it, but it is true. It saddens me to see her turn out this way and that I have to finally, fully bury my pretty lie belief in the good girl.

    .
    Now I still think there are good girls who are relationship material but what sucks for them is their slutty sisters makes it hard to tell them apart. Going back to the question again, dress and demeanor count, but there is no substitute for in-depth vetting and testing.

  • filrabat

    @The Private Man

    For every solid piece of advice that Susan brings to young women, those idiot Kardashians bury it ten times over.

    The DNA-challenged girls on MTV’s Jersey Shore then covers the good advice with cement.

    I’m sure gays in the 60s and 70s said something similar about what today would be disgustingly homophobic words and actions.

    Ditto for Blacks in the 40s and 50s about racist statements and actions.

    See my point?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I am proud to have a diverse portfolio of haters.

    Can you put a little bit of your narcissism on a bottle and sent it to me? I would be a mess under the bed with a third of the hate you get.
    I think part of problem is that I don’t understand hatedom. I mean when I don’t like something I just avoid it, forever, close the book, turn of the TV, log out of the Internet site. When love something I spent all my energy/time on it but tat feels energetic and nice (BTW Netflix will have all the Star Trek series episodes watching live on July, I probably won’t visit here during that whole month, so you will have some peace here again :) ) But hating feels awful how come people spent so much energy/time on it? Does not compute.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie

      Can you put a little bit of your narcissism on a bottle and sent it to me? I would be a mess under the bed with a third of the hate you get.

      Haha, you’re still reeling from my high score on the narcissism test! When I started blogging I was very sensitive to the hate. But over time it matters less, and sometimes I even enjoy it. I remember feeling thrilled that I got Jessica Valenti and Amanda Marcotte posting about me, and then NOW denounced me. It felt like a victory, getting through to those crazies in any way.

      I think it’s OK because readers here, including yourself, are very supportive and appreciative. It’s extremely validating for me just to have the discussion happening – and quite a few bloggers and writers I respect enormously approve and support my work here. It dwarfs the other stuff, really.

  • filrabat

    As for the broader theme, I don’t know if its my age or that I grew up in a conservative rural Bible Belt area (maybe a little bit looser than Hope’s “Mormon Central”, but not by a whole lot). Regardless, I think even many of Susan’s “not thats” are somewhat over my borderline. For me, the gray rather tight sweater is about as explicit as I’d want a woman to get outside a beach, other water activity, or mowing the yard (even the latter requires either a huge lot or living out in the country.

    Then again, maybe this is to be expected in a time when prudity is treated with condescension at best and contempt at worst.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat
      The fashions here that I recommend will definitely not pass muster in some parts of the country. They are actually looks that I know well, meaning that young women here in Boston wear them. Fashions in NYC and LA would be even more extreme. I know, though, that showcasing Little House on the Prairie dresses would just make me lose credibility with my female readers. The contrast I provide here is real, but both looks are considered fashionable.

      A woman can be classy without looking frumpy or even particularly conservative. She can show her legs without showing her butt cheeks. She can bare her shoulders without falling out of her top, etc.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    The only problem I see with this photo spread is that all the women you’ve pictured have a high level of intrinsic attractiveness, so it’s easy to see that their modest wear makes them look more muted/classy, because they stand out no matter what they wear unless they put on oversized sweats. I can’t blame you for this, since how easy is it to find pictures of “plain models.” But for a plain Jane or above average woman, she puts on the “modest” clothes and says bleh, reinforcing her urge to wear sluttier clothes to compensate.
    .
    The missing #6 on your list is “women dress to get attention from other women, as well as from men.” So they are playing to a proximal audience that isn’t in line with their quest to attract a swell guy (if they even want to do so), they want to get oohs and ahhs when they meet the other girls at the frat/club. Not that they shouldn’t know better than to take other girls’ opinions seriously – women have told me with their own mouths that they never say anything but positive platitudes to their friends’ faces.
    .
    As for “classy,” as far as I’m concerned classy is a synonym for “relationship material.” If a guy says you’re classy take it as a major positive. (If a girl tells you you’re classy I wouldn’t read too much into it, see previous paragraph, usually it’s code for you have designer labels.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      But for a plain Jane or above average woman, she puts on the “modest” clothes and says bleh, reinforcing her urge to wear sluttier clothes to compensate.

      Good point. Also, we know that those are often the women chasing their hypergamous urges, so they are perhaps even more likely to slut it up.

      The missing #6 on your list is “women dress to get attention from other women, as well as from men.” So they are playing to a proximal audience that isn’t in line with their quest to attract a swell guy (if they even want to do so), they want to get oohs and ahhs when they meet the other girls at the frat/club.

      Another good point. And you’re right, no woman ever answered in the affirmative to “Does my butt look fat in these jeans?” (and very few went for the tactile groin examination either :P) My daughter has a friend who is, well, zaftig. She loves to borrow my daughter’s clothes, squeezing herself into various stretchy outfits and asking us to pick the one that looks best. This is always painful, and I confess I have never managed to say “none.” Though I did tactfully suggest the purchase of Spanx.

  • AnonF

    @OtC
    I was thinking the same thing about the categories. In addition to the ones you already mentioned, I also think the pink “to wear” going out top (on the blond model) is neither modest ( lower back is a weird place to show skin ) nor flattering on most women. It’s all somewhat subjective I guess, but I probably would’ve had to sneak that pink top out under a sweater as a teen. My parents would not have been into it. So that makes me similar to filrabat a little, except a totally different conservative culture.

    FTR, not making a value judgment here. I have been known to wear a slightly scandalous outfit on occasion myself, though very rarely. I take no issue with women who want to show off more often.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC, @AnonF
      I can appreciate that people might have differing views of what is slutty vs. classy. Here was my reasoning:

      1. Kim K is wearing a tight, stretchy fabric and showing a lot of cleavage. Reese is showing bare shoulders, but no breasts. To me that is classier.

      2. The orange sundress is a very low V, and it’s also a stretchy fabric. It would not be possible to wear a bra with that dress. In contrast, the yellow dress is a scoop neck that covers considerably more of the torso and all of the breast area.

      3. The pink top with the ruffle is actually one I have seen. It’s by Alisha Levine, and it’s very cute. From the front it is simple, high-necked, a-line. In the back just a small wedge of skin shows. The girl who owns that top always gets a lot of compliments. I think it’s partly the fact that the exposure is in an unexpected spot – it seems sexy even though it’s just a glimpse. I agree that it’s not a shirt for a teen in high school – the girl I know wore it at 20 or so.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I think that women consciously want to draw attention and admiration from men. I think they also underestimate how whorish men think they look.”
    .
    I think it’s that they just don’t understand that male attention comes in two forms (plus the mutated white knight form, btw can’t wait to hear your take on the uber pathetic Dear Women video).
    .
    Women have two ladders for men (sexy and not sexy). Men have three (f*ck, date and busted). I will post on this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      btw can’t wait to hear your take on the uber pathetic Dear Women video

      I found it hilarious, and also fascinating. I was truly and thoroughly repulsed by those men. I couldn’t watch for long, it felt like watching castrati.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Haha, you’re still reeling from my high score on the narcissism test!

    Well I did mine recently and obviously I need help on that department with a mere 13 and I suspect it would had been lower…is embarrassing!

    I think it’s OK because readers here, including yourself, are very supportive and appreciative. It’s extremely validating for me just to have the discussion happening – and quite a few bloggers and writers I respect enormously approve and support my work here. It dwarfs the other stuff, really.

    I have to admit that I think I might need a ton more of validation to endure it.
    I realized I got a thin skin when I published my first YA book on my country. I won the highest literary award offered there with it, got tons of praise did tours, 10 months later I placed it on Kindle Amazon and I got one bad review from a Mexican girl and my peak of sales went down….Boy did I take that bad! I was depressed for a whole month. I know is embarrassing and completely ridiculous but is still true. So yeah validation for some reason doesn’t really work with me. Any other advice? And yes I’m a wuss no need to repeat it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I realized I got a thin skin when I published my first YA book on my country. I won the highest literary award offered there with it, got tons of praise did tours,

      That’s awesome! Has it been translated? I’d like to read it. If you like YA, you should read The Hunger Games and the two sequels. I’ve just finished the second book, am completely hooked.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “It’s by Alisha Levine, ”
    .
    This clause added zero value to any man reading this. B)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This clause added zero value to any man reading this. B)

      HAHA! I still reserve the right to indulge in girl talk from time to time!

  • AnonF

    @Susan
    I can see where you’re coming from more with the explanation. I admit that fine distinctions in fashion have never been my forte :)

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “HAHA! I still reserve the right to indulge in girl talk from time to time!”
    .
    I ain’t hatin’, I’m just sayin’. This is a woman blog after all.

  • Mike C

    Well, if he doesn’t…..I mean, she was out all night. Also, any woman who bangs with another couple right there? The boyfriend can’t be in the dark about her true nature.
    .
    Hypothetically, they might not be living together and maybe he was coming over in the morning. Anyways, I think you’d be surprised just how many guys are clueless about what is going on with their girlfriends or girls they are seeing as far as their true nature. Many women are very talented at hiding things. Again, I wouldn’t know any of this had I not seen and heard a lot of stuff during my bouncing days. IIRC, there is a Roissy post highlighting some husband who is getting cheated on and being shocked about the things she does with her lover but never did with him. As always, I really have no idea on the rough percentage breakdown on these types of things, but the smart guy does try to test for this as best as possible……
    .

    I remember Escarondito once gave girls here the advice, “Never do more than make out the first night.” I think that many women fail to grasp how powerful that self-restraint is in signaling relationship fitness.

    .
    Yup, that really is so true. The girl really has to be the one to firmly stop the physical escalation on that first night. Absolutely on target that the self-restraint demonstrates relationship fitness and a number of other attractive character attributes.

  • Mike C

    I think the idea of contrast is a big one in separating out classy with a sexy twist versus the slutty look. Pick one thing to show off and cover up the rest so if you show a lot of leg don’t have a ton of cleavage showing

  • Stephenie Rowling

    That’s awesome! Has it been translated?

    Yeah right, because anglo speakers are going to be any nicer, they will chew me and spit me on seconds… So no is not translated, you are not missing anything really, is a YA book for the younger crowd of the target audience, a fairytale.

    If you like YA, you should read The Hunger Games and the two sequels. I’ve just finished the second book, am completely hooked.

    Coincidentally I was discussing about that series of books with some friends and the potential to become the next Harry Potter or Twilight and one of the things I had noticed is that Dystopian fiction is a very popular genre for anglo speakers but not so much on the rest of the planet. If you take a look around the world classics, like the Handsmaid tale,1984, A brave new world… its not as popular on many other countries. I mean read them but mostly as part of my personal interest on American literature, its not even on the list of books for creative writing class I took on Spain.
    I have the hypothesis that is because around the world we already lived a a Dystopian past. Most of our countries already had the “Age of dictators” that like on those books forced citizens to do unnamed things, I had Trujillo who also needed tributes but in his case were young and pretty girls or/and killing their families, Haiti had Duvalier, Italy had Mussolini, Argentina had Peron (sorry Yohami in the case you are a Peronista), Chile had Pinochet, Spain had Franco and so on and Asia had dystopian past and sadly many of their countries still had dystopian presents.
    So the Hunger Games is not in my list of readings, been there done that, got a bloody T-Shirt I know is brilliant but I grew up with stories of real people being tortured and killed on an oppressive government, its not a place I want to visit for entertainment. I don’t even read Trujillo literature because at this point I heard every possible story about his atrocities.
    Undoubtedly this series will find a lot of success on the anglosphere, that seems to be fascinated by this maybe because it was not part of their history, but I’m not so sure around the world. But then I might be wrong, if the movies are a success that might open the door for them and maybe the younger generations is already past this facts, I know at least five or six kids that are interested on reading it on my country, so who knows, wait and see. I guess.
    Thanks for the recommendation and feel free to recommend any other books you read, just no dystopian. ;)

  • Chico

    Just watched the “Dear Woman” video. Sorriest bunch of manginas I’ve ever seen. I think I threw up a little in my mouth.

  • filrabat

    @ Susan
    Little House on the Prairie

    Even Bible Belter Gen-Y’s (or even Gen-Xers back in ‘their day’) would call that too conservative for a college campus (barring the really devout Pentacostals and Southern Baptists – the former more than the latter).

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Susan
    I would like to ask if weather/location had any application on this. The clothes you classifying as slutty are used by most of the women on my country when they go to casual settings unless they are evangelical so if is summer on Florida do you (and the) guys still think shorts with a low cut top or showing all three is slutty?

    Also Susan my wedding dress showed cleavage, leg, and back…my husband help me design it too, but I married on a restaurant not a church, still I’m pretty sure you would be horrified by it! :p

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Thanks Susan.

    Around these parts I feel like I’m being revealing when I wear a short-sleeved top with a knee-length hemline. This is seriously the only look I would be comfortable wearing outside from your list.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Aniston3.jpg

    This wasn’t the case in Chicago though. I’ve been Mormonized after living here for two years.

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    Man I’ve always wanted to pull of the backless shirt.

  • Abbot

    I am proud to have a diverse portfolio of haters. I’ve been ignoring some of them for too long. I’m working on a post that may or may not bring out the sex pozzies – Abbot helped with a link today. To do that I’ve got to link to them, and that’s always a Pandora’s box. Still, it could be fun!

    .
    That link already brought them out. So let the fun begin!
    .
    http://feministing.com/2011/04/11/feminism-once-again-blamed-for-well-everything/#more-32198

  • testify222

    Although men think we see the world in binary, i.e. good girls for ltr’s and sluts for casual sex, the reality is that we want both in one woman.

    I like sluttier women (badd bitches with big booties like this girl) because they tend to be prettier, doll themselves up, can dance like a stripper and fuck like a porn star, have better bodies (and confidence to show it off), extroverted, socially intelligent, competitive, narcissistic – high SMV – similar characteristics alphas have and that I aspire towards with learning game. IOW, my perfect woman would be a reflection of what I idealize, to some degree.

    She has to understand how far she can push it though: she has to be sexually loyal within an ltr; she can’t have banged lots of guys within my general sphere, and I don’t want to know about all of her past adventures.

    But she MUST push the sexual boundaries, or else she’s simply safe, boring and not attractive. She has to know how to walk that line between nasty slut and classy good girl. I think this is how most guys really feel even if they aren’t aware of it. IOW, for a woman just following the prude/modest path is not going to result in attracting men for ltr’s, especially not men with game or options. And I think even betas/nice guys don’t really like modest women – but instead resent them for being unsexy. Hence some of the biggest wife abusers and closet porn addicts are ultra conservative betas.

  • Lavazza

    To get a classy look you take an attractive young actress and make her play a slightly older upper class mum.

    Like this.

    http://www.expressen.se/mode/1.2333963/solsidans-stil-ikon

  • Lavazza

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIP9DeXVO_E&feature=related

    Trailer. The busty babe is playing a Ukrainian au pirl girl. The angry woman is Sweden’s biggest female style icon, for the moment.

  • dream puppy

    @Hope

    Utah is too much man…a hot body is a terrible thing to waste :P

    One More Try

    I also want to add something- it may be kind of hard to translate…

    If you suffer from what is known in Spanish as “cara de puta” (“Slut Face”) you really need to rein in the dress. Slut Face isn’t necessarily a beautiful face, but a sexy face.
    Here are two examples. Adriana Lima has a pretty hardcore case of slutface.

    It’s hard to describe, but when you see it you know it.

  • http://brightstormyday.wordpress.com Stormy

    How is the orange sundress worse than the yellow sundress? It’s not much different than the dresses you were telling girls to wear.

    Also sometimes covering up isn’t as flattering or slimming as showing a little. Especially for women with large butts or busts.

  • http://brightstormyday.wordpress.com Stormy

    Also, you picked a lot of unflattering dresses and said to not wear a dress style one shoulder) that is incredibly flattering and classic.

    I’m pretty sure, with the exception of the super cropped tops, that I could find an example of each of the things you said not to wear and make it look classy. Or at the very least not slutty.

    It’s usually how you wear it, not how the outfit itself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stormy
      Re the cocktail dress: the first example is all one dress, different colors, by Shoshanna. I don’t think it’s at all ugly, but that’s a matter of personal taste. The Tart dress on the right, however, is a stretchy jersey fabric. It hugs the body tight at all points of contact – it’s a glove. It’s also a lot shorter than the dress on the left. I have no problem with off the shoulder, or even showing both shoulders, obviously. Can you see how the dress on the left might be appropriate to wear to a wedding or formal, while the dress on the left says CFM (come f*ck me)?

      These pics are just a starting point, not a comprehensive list of what is and isn’t OK. I’m sure you could find examples of tasteful cropped tops. What’s important is the overall vibe – does is say sexually available now, or get to know me.

      It’s usually how you wear it, not how the outfit itself.

      Hmmm, I don’t think so. The Milly top on the right – white with dark trim is modest. The orange halter plunges way low. Furthermore, and this is really the point of the post, a slut wouldn’t wear the Milly top – too boring, not sexy enough. While a less promiscuous girl might wear the orange halter, especially if lots of other girls wear a similar style. In general, I would say that most of the young women I know dress more suggestively than they are prepared to deliver on.

      Re the orange sundress, as I said in a comment upthread, it’s another stretchy jersey item, very low cut. I doubt you could wear a bra with it – most girls wouldn’t. I think it’s fair to say that stretchy halters that look kinda like bathing suits are less classy. In fact, this dress looks like a bathing suit coverup. The yellow dress is a scoop neck that covers a whole lot more of the upper body.

      I think most, if not all, men here will tell you that a glimpse that provokes the imagination is far sexier than a look that conveys exactly what a body looks like naked.

      In any case, it’s not important what I think is slutty. But it is important, if one wants to convey “girlfriend” rather than “hole” that men don’t think she looks slutty.

  • Höllenhund

    OT: you should check out this comment, Ms. Walsh. It looks at feminism from a different perspective.

    http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/04/12/kill-your-game-idols-part-2-strauss-schwyzer-and-spengler/#comment-30022

  • Clarence

    Stephanie:

    Some outfits are so trashy they are anti-sexy. That video sure illustrated that.

    I saw someone with all that extra makeup……ick. I’d take the Happy Meal.

  • http://www.2centtab.blogspot.com Samson

    I gotta cosign Obsidian on the sista remarks. I don’t know what it is, but some have definitely trademarked the mean mug. This doesn’t help the “attitude” stereotype. No matter the race of the woman, there is absolutely nothing less attractive than someone who wears the “Man hater” thought process. Without even telling me about your life, it seeps through your pores and is evident in your body language, speech and actions.

    And Workshy Joe said, “When I see a provocatively dressed woman these days I don’t think “she wants sex”, I think “she wants attention”. Big difference.”

    I have to agree with this also. It’s fairly obvious when someone is screaming for attention. This is also a turnoff, because a confident woman will naturally get attention on her own merit without having to resort to whoring it up to get some looks thrown her way.

  • Abbot

    “This is also a turnoff, because a confident woman will naturally get attention on her own merit without having to resort to whoring it up to get some looks thrown her way.”
    .
    Its also a turnoff because she makes the personal public. A man needs to know she favors a private sphere that shuns desired sexual attention from all other men or he will feel no reason to commit. Why aren’t American parents explaining these historical truisms to their daughters?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why aren’t American parents explaining these historical truisms to their daughters?

      I believe that American parents are so desperate to have their children be popular – at the top of the heap – often because they never were. They wind up doing a lot of looking the other way, or even outright denial, partly because they haven’t navigated that particular scene, but also because they think their kid is a winner. I’ve seen parents of slutty 16 yo girls act like their daughter was the best of the bunch due to the number of suitors she had.

  • Höllenhund

    OT:

    http://www.openmarket.org/2011/04/11/education-department-changes-burden-of-proof-in-sexual-harassment-cases-under-title-ix/

    This development appears to prove that there currently is a negative feedback loop in the SMP i.e. destructive trends are accelerating and the legislation supposedly designed to mitigate problems will only result in even more dysfunction.

  • Abbot

    “I’ve seen parents of slutty 16 yo girls act like their daughter was the best of the bunch due to the number of suitors she had.”
    .
    And that girl maintains this attitude years later about herself. The more “suitors” based on the easy give-a-way, the better she feels. Its harem promotion and maintenance. Where does it lead? To Jaclyn Friedman? Amanda Marcotte? Jessica Valenti? Some parents they must have.

  • Aldonza

    I don’t know, maybe I’m more liberal than most, but I didn’t find any of those clothes to be particularly slutty, (OK, Keira Knightly was pretty slutty in those so-low jeans and crop top.)
    .
    To me, slutwear is pretty much anything that comes up when you do an image search for “clubwear” on google. Add in some borderline fetish high-heels, apply make-up with a trowel, and knock back a few sugar-free redbulls and vodka before you even leave the house.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Hey all,
    Speaking of Hollenhund and his O/T comments, I agree Ms. Walsh (and anyone else reading along), you should most definitely check this out since your blog was linked:

    Keeping It Real: The Game, Neil Strauss, The (Sexual) Politics Of Fear, & Why Both Clarisse Thorn AND Ferdinand Bardamu Got It All Wrong

    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/65015

    Holla back

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I know the discussion has largely centered on the younger set, but what about the older gals, say 35-45 or so? I don’t know about anyone else, but I done seen plenty of em tryin’ to hold on….and it don’t look so good, LOL. There really does need to be something said on this, and I freely admit that I am out of my depth on that one.

    Any comments?

    O.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Aldonza
    I think you’re proving my point. Women don’t think most of this sends the wrong message. That’s why they wear it all constantly and yet “why don’t I have a boyfriend” is the #1 search term bringing women to HUS.

    The question is, and it’s one that can only be answered by men:

    “If you see a woman with a backless shirt, how do you perceive her?”

    IOW, what message does she convey about what she is seeking. One quick tug of the bow in the back and the shirt falls away? Will she draw the attention of the exact same men as the woman who wears an attractive, slinky, shirt with a high neckline?

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    “I gotta cosign Obsidian on the sista remarks. I don’t know what it is, but some have definitely trademarked the mean mug. This doesn’t help the “attitude” stereotype. No matter the race of the woman, there is absolutely nothing less attractive than someone who wears the “Man hater” thought process. Without even telling me about your life, it seeps through your pores and is evident in your body language, speech and actions.”

    O: Thanks, Samson. And that’s really what it is when you think about.

    Look, life’s rough enough for a Brotha as it is; I really ain’t tryin’ to come home to Aunt Esther’s mug, OK? I just don’t get why so many Sistas have to be looking like the Dark Knight or something. Sheesh, give it a rest already.

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    “If you see a woman with a backless shirt, how do you perceive her?”

    O: Ho.

    Next question?

    O.

  • OffTheCuff

    The details of stretchy vs non-stretchy and fabric and which ones require bras and which don’t are pretty much lost on me — perhaps it’s the small pictures with not enough detail, and it would be more obvious in person.

    Really, in cocktail dress category, looking at these small pics alone, they are very close. The “slutty” one shows a little more upper leg, but apparently showing a a lot less skin on the chest doesn’t count. To me, it looks like one is “highlighting the legs”, and the other three are “highlighting the chest” following your 1 of 3 rule.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    As for styles/eras of dresses, now that I think about it, I really do dig the 50s style. Ms. Brown Sugah has a few of those styled dresses, and they really like nice on her. Obs like! :)

    Ms. Walsh, stop hatin’ on Kim K. She aight with me.

    Can’t make those skinny hipster White boy jeans. Got way too much thighs and behind for em.

    Speaking of which, what is up with so many Women’s buttcrack showing? Yo, I remember going to Aldo’s to cop a couple pair of shoes, and one of the sales gals had on what must’ve been lowrise dress slacks or something, because when she stopped down to rearrange some things on the shelf to my left as I was online waiting to get rung up, I casually look and there is her buttcrack being presented to me…ugh. And this was an otherwise good looking gal, too.

    So, I motioned the duty manager over and whispered the situation into her ear and she then went over and pulled ole girl’s coat. But I tell ya, in more recent years, that Female Buttcrack thing is everywhere – on the train, on the bus, walking down the street. Ugh. And it seems like the Women LEAST able to rock hip huggers and lowriser jeans and the like are the ones MOST likely to wear em! What is up with that???

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ms. Walsh, stop hatin’ on Kim K. She aight with me.

      Ha, you finally noticed! I’ve been taunting you with making an example of her since our original Kardashian/Portman showdown :)

      And it seems like the Women LEAST able to rock hip huggers and lowriser jeans and the like are the ones MOST likely to wear em! What is up with that???

      I think that as obesity becomes more prevalent, and fat-shaming becomes more un-PC, more women are squeezing themselves into smaller sizes and all kinds of fashions they would do better to leave alone. Their bottoms are bursting right out of size 8 jeans because they should be in a 12.

      There are also quite a few skinny girls who just wear the jeans so low the occasional slippage in the back is inevitable. Believe it or not, I once saw a woman with pubic hair peeking over the top of super low jeans. That was truly nasty.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I believe that American parents are so desperate to have their children be popular – at the top of the heap – often because they never were. They wind up doing a lot of looking the other way, or even outright denial, partly because they haven’t navigated that particular scene, but also because they think their kid is a winner. I’ve seen parents of slutty 16 yo girls act like their daughter was the best of the bunch due to the number of suitors she had.

    I already mentioned this, but this is part of the whole nice=Boring/Weak. If girls themselves rank popularity over character on their own herds, how come are they going to see any nice guy as attractive? They can’t. They had been shown that popular means being the center of attention and being selfish so of course by the time they go to college they had been groomed to ride the carousel for years. This attitude is their training wheels, YMMV.

  • Abbot

    The question is, and it’s one that can only be answered by men:

    “If you see a woman with a backless shirt, how do you perceive her?”

    .
    Public property. Like a library book. Borrowed, then returned. Never once, after seeing literally thousands of enchanting young single women from north Mexico down to Panama did I see a woman dressed in that manner. Whew, what a relief. There are good parents in the world after all.

  • http://brightstormyday.wordpress.com Stormy

    @Susan Walsh:

    It isn’t about parents turning a blind eye or wanting their kids to be popular. My mom is from Venezuela and I am conservative compared to her in the things I wear. If I were to wear the same things she wore in her 20’s, I’d be wearing thongs at the beach. She was even telling me to look into “cheeky” bikini bottoms.

    And yes, it is how you wear it, 9/10. The slutty looks slutty because it’s 100% of tacky. I agree with Aldonza on cheap clubwear and tacky clubbing outfits. That’s what’s really slutty. Braless halter tops? Hey, not every girl has D’s or DD’s. A lot of girls can get away with not wearing bras. I at the very least wear adhesive bras so that…..in case it gets cold…you know.

    The United States is so fucked in terms of sexuality and the human body it’s not even fucking funny. There are countries were people run around naked. Every day. And it’s no big fucking deal.

    The only time I’ve ever had someone I’ve been in a relationship with be angry about what I wore (and it wasn’t even slutty; jeans and a scoop tank that didn’t showed a Reese Witherspoon amount of cleavage) was the same ex who tried to get me to drop out of college, live with him, and have his babies, and smacked me and took my phone when I tried texting my family. So I’m going to guess that half the men in these comments half the same diseased mentality he does. My father told me if I’m ever dating anyone again and they say the same things about what I wear, I should dump them. Because they’re a 9/10 chance they’re abusive or controlling.

    Just saying. And for those that ask, yeah, my dad helps pick out a lot of my clothes hahaha. >.>’ awkward. But he’s really good at pointing out what fits well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stormy
      No question you are right about the U.S. – we’re very Puritanical. Stephenie mentioned her wedding dress yesterday and I had the same response. Everyone knows Latina woman are hot, and it’s because they embrace sensuality. We American women don’t really do that, though we do often embrace sexuality. There’s a big difference. This post will absolutely make no sense in another culture – which will have its own boundaries.

      Having raised two kids up through college age, I can assure you that I have seen many parents look the other way when their kids were sexually precocious, even in middle school. It’s not just sex either – many parents secretly applaud the fact that their kids go out and drink at parties at that age. In fact, here in my state several parents have been prosecuted for supplying vast quantities of alcohol to underage teens. Unfortunately, the reason they got caught was because someone died or was seriously harmed at the party.

      In all the years my kids were in school, I never encountered a single other parent who called ahead to inquire about a party or weekend plan, and whether there would be responsible supervision. Hell, I’m guilty of some of this myself. I’ve had a mother tell me proudly that the boys adore her virgin daughter, while I knew the girl had just had an abortion.

      I’ve also seen many parents remain in denial about anorexia, claiming all was well until a crisis occurred. In one case, the college sent the girl home (from Paris) and in the other the girl swallowed a 12 inch paintbrush while trying to stimulate her very desensitized gag reflex. Actually, both of those mothers still claim everything was “blown out of proportion.” Honestly, I could type for hours about the poor parenting choices I have seen people make.

      In nearly every case, the parents wanted high-achieving, thriving, popular kids and fought any evidence that their kids were in trouble.

  • Lavazza

    I agree with the guys that “attention whore” is the safest bet when interpreting a woman’s choice of revealing clothes. Other possible explanations come far behind.

  • dream puppy

    @Stormy

    The United States is so fucked in terms of sexuality and the human body it’s not even fucking funny. There are countries were people run around naked. Every day. And it’s no big fucking deal.

    The United States is very liberal in comparison to most countries in terms of dress and sexual behavior. The ivory tower is warping your head.

    You are also incorrectly attributing sexual mores with being ‘fucked-up’- whatever that means. Healthy societies have rules regarding sexual conduct. The breakdown of these norms is actually what is harmful. (See: The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness).

    What countries have people that run around naked (every day)? This has never been a staple of Western Society. The only ones I have seen that do so are profoundly uncivilized. Why is this an example of what is good?

    Caveat: I do agree with that weird distinction in South America where at the beach, anything goes. However, those same Venezuelans that wear tangas at the beach dress modestly everywhere else. Further, I don’t think that titty-fests like Sabado Gigante (keeping it old school) or the La Republic Deportiva are signs of a society with a healthy grip on female sexuality. I’m having a hard time understanding your argument as it was all over the place.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    it’s because they embrace sensuality. We American women don’t really do that, though we do often embrace sexuality. There’s a big difference.

    You know Susan this would be a very good post for you to make. Sexual revolution forgot totally about sensuality to favor sexuality and I think that is part of the disconnect that allows women to hook up for so many years, before realizing they are unhappy, empty and not wired to enjoy meaningless sex. You should totally talk about that at some point.

  • dream puppy

    @Stormy

    No question you are right about the U.S. – we’re very Puritanical. S

    Compared to whom? Women in Latin America are still encouraged to remain virgins, or at least marry the first man they sleep with. Virginity is still something to protect in Latin America and Asia (and the Middle East), whereas here, it is all but spit on. I am not sure what the benchmark is….I ask again, Americans are puritanical compared to whom?

    Everyone knows Latina woman are hot, and it’s because they embrace sensuality.

    LOL. You may have a point, I suppose. Asian, Latin American, and some European women are still encouraged to dress and act like females. Perhaps it is not so much sensuality (that is so cliche!!) but femininity.

  • Extinguish

    Obsidian is dead on with the black chicks. I thought at first they were just fridig to me because of my viking feature set, but no, they are at least as cold to males of every race. The contrast is huge at the gym, where literally every brother has introduced himself, and we get along famously.

    Also, v-necks are a great way to encourage a man to stare at your bust. The eye follows lines; a trick every artist uses.

    It would be great if underage girls would STOP dressing up like sluts. It’s just evil.

    Plumber’s crack is wrong. Seeing little ass-hairs peeking over your pants is not a turn on. Nor pubes in the front.

  • http://brightstormyday.wordpress.com Stormy

    DreamPuppy:

    I have a number of European and Eastern European friends who state that Americans are prude compared to the women in their cultures. American women are more masculinized and trashy. An American woman will makeout with you, drunkenly, in front of everyone.

    An Eastern European woman will wait till everyone’s left the party and slut it up with you in your bedroom.

    And I don’t know what you mean by “dress conservatively.” My mom was wealthier and involved with people who knew people, and was manly with the white modern European crowd in Venezuela (probably what? not even 5% of the population), so maybe that’s why things were different. But there were a lot of shotgun weddings, if even that. Women were expected to wait till marriage, but she was one of the few who did, and looking back, she was pretty much the only one of her friends with a failed marriage. Not saying they’re correlated, her ex sucked, but it just happened to be oddly ironic.

    She had tons of friends who did drugs, there were constant riots, worse than the United States. It was the 70’s. You think everyone was chaste? Bullshit.

  • http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/ hambydammit

    I like your 1 of 3 rule. But I think you need to place an addendum on it. At least for me, it’s not that you “can” highlight one of the three. You “should” highlight one of the three if you’re on the market. Women who cover everything appear prudish, reserved, unapproachable. They are sending the message: I’m not comfortable with you looking at my body.

    If a girl isn’t comfortable with me looking at her body, she’s damn sure not going to be comfortable with the other things I have planned. So I pretty much always pass these girls up for women who look comfy in their skin and don’t mind telling me (with their dress) that IF I get to look at the rest, it’ll be a fun time for all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hamby
      As usual, great advice from you:

      You “should” highlight one of the three if you’re on the market. Women who cover everything appear prudish, reserved, unapproachable.

      The whole idea is to be approachable, so warding off men by communicating total sexual unavailability is obviously a bad idea.

      If a girl isn’t comfortable with me looking at her body, she’s damn sure not going to be comfortable with the other things I have planned.

      LOL. You make a good point here – one of the reasons men cite as going for slutty women is that the sex is good – they know what they’re doing, and they probably have no hangups about their bodies. Women who are less experienced need to leave any self-consciousness at the door when the time comes. If necessary, they need to fake it. A man would rather see an imperfect body walking around naked unabashedly than a perfect body wrapped modestly in a sheet.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @dream puppy @Stormy

    I think the issue is that the definition of puritanical, sexuality and conservative and sensuality are different depending on the culture and the context.
    A culture can show a lot of skin and still be conservative and a culture can cover women from head to toes and still be sensual, belly dance is taught to most Muslim girls since they are a very young as a way to entice their husbands and connect with their own pleasure, they also wear the slutty clothes at a home, that is one of the reasons they cover their women on the street, a man knowing that there is eye candy waiting for him at home on a environment where all the women are covered is more likely to go straight home after work and no participate on any activity that could lead to a Haram (sin). That is something most of my Muslim friends relate to me. The nudity is something they preserve for the husband, and so the sexuality once married Allah consider almost everything pleasurable in the marriage Halal (allowed) so they are usually very sexual creatures within the frame of marriage. Of course I won’t say is a paradise because they can only express their sexuality after the men on their lives allow it and consider it healthy for their families and the community but many Muslim men also remain virgins for the same reasons, not all of course but again if you add the teachings they hear with the lack of opportunities (they don’t have a lot of single bars, you have to meet the family of the women so pumping and dumping is also harder and they don’t drink alcohol) remaining chaste is not as hard on those countries for both genders as it is on western ones, but that doesn’t mean that they are puritanical in the sense many people assume. And I know most people here probably think they are retrogrades and misogynist but every culture has their own solution to the issues of sex and gender so that is just their way to do so. Of course you can also argue that all this countries are underdeveloped so maybe there is a connection on sexual freedom and social progress, even though I think this is something new, the Arabic world was more advanced on science for a long time before the western world, I don’t recall exactly how tables got turned, need to recheck that.

    I personally was raised as a catholic but in my country there was a lot of difference in the way sexuality is addressed than what former Catholics here on other places express. When I was on Sunday school they did said that God created sex for the man and the woman to enjoy and love each other but it was better for us as humans to do it after getting to know the person deeply and once you consider that person worth it of sex, and are in love with it, you are also ready for marriage so you get married, because that is what God consider the best for us, and no there was no talk of going to hell if you had sex outside the marriage, and no stupid purity rings to brag about it, it was left as a personal choice and they did said how practical is waiting in contrast with no waiting. They saw sex for marriage as a natural progression on a relationship where two people get to know each other superficially first and then go into knowing each other intimately. But once you got the ring….everything was allowed. And I mean everything ;).
    Did any of you watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding? There is a scene where Toula’s mother tell her before the wedding. “Greek women are lambs in the kitchen but Lions in bed”. So choosing to remain a virgin is not necessarily a sign of being puritanical, the hottest sex advices I had gotten had been from my friends that most of them where virgins when they meet their husbands.
    Also there is the whole transition aspect mothers and daughters are a lot more open about sexuality once they get married is like you get a passport into a new whole aspect of adulthood but you need to have certain requisites to be allowed to be it, in here sexuality is I don’t know have all this strange attributes to it like “empowerment” that were unheard on my culture. I mean most women know that a man will do and say anything to have sex with a woman he finds hot and will have sex with any woman that is willing. Of course American culture is erasing that very fast, only the most privileged families keep this ideas for their kids, the masses are slutting up at a very fast rate.
    So again I think you are both right and wrong is just a different definition of what is puritanical or not, YMMV.

  • SayWhaat

    the Arabic world was more advanced on science for a long time before the western world

    Because they served as a conduit of knowledge from East India and China, both of which were the most advanced in the world at the time. :P /culturepride

    I don’t recall exactly how tables got turned, need to recheck that.

    The Abbasid Empire. They inaugurated the Golden Age and started shit with the Shi’a Muslims, which led to fracture.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee
    2. Fashion models tend to be skinny and flat-chested. What looks innocent on them may appear extremely seductive on a woman with C cups or a nice round booty.

    This just can’t be said enough. Some things that look nice on flat girls just looks vulgar on women with breasts. I have tried wearing a push up bra with a low cut top and I just look like a hooker. And the one time I did go out like that, I was also treated like one.

    As a black woman with a B-cup on the high end and a booty, I can vouch for that lol.

    Obsidian,

    Men LOVE Women who wear dresses. Moreover, many Sistas have problems with wearing differing forms of pants anyway, since most of these garments are made for the behinds of White Women, which, as many as Sista knows and knows well, tend to be much flatter than their own, LOL.

    *Sighs* Ain’t that the truth :P

    And for God’s sake, put down those ridiculous blonde wigs/extensions/monstrosities!-trust me, people are laughing AT you when you wear stuff like that.

    Lol, yeah like me ;)

    I have to admit though, I tend to wear jeans and a T-shirt or jeans and a nice top when I go out.

  • dream puppy

    @Stormy

    You are not forming a coherent argument. American are women are Puritanical because 1) Your European friends said so 2) They make out with guys in front of everyone.

  • dream puppy

    @Obsidian-

    Nice to see you back. I like the blonde weaves. A tasteful light haired weave can look very nice in contrast to darker skin. It would have to go with her skin tone and be tastefully done- those monotone blonde weaves are horrible- even on white women.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    Awww, I actually like that dark blue cocktail dress lol.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    dream puppy, yeah I like those latest ones a lot better. I have something like the first chiffon skirt, except it’s a full on dress that I never wear due to being a tube on top. I really need to get some cover up type things to layer with.

    “If you suffer from what is known in Spanish as “cara de puta” (“Slut Face”) you really need to rein in the dress.”

    That goes back to the makeup thing. Adriana Lima without makeup has a whole different look:

    http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6434/adriana20lima15mb3.jpg

    I never wear makeup hence I usually get called “cute” but never sexy.

    Sometimes I think about playing up the fact that I’m Asian instead of dressing to “fit in,” something like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Belle_robe_avec_paillettes.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope
      That Chinese dress would look gorgeous on you. It also has a real vintage vibe – despite its modest neckline it’s quite fitted.

  • paige

    try shappy apple for cute feminine dresses with a touch of the old-fashioned sophistication.

    http://www.shabbyapple.com/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What I Wore is a personal style blog by Jessica Quirk:

      http://whatiwore.tumblr.com/tagged/daily_outfit

      She’s so successful she’s got a new book coming out. She has a Daily Outfit she wears and photographs, and she dresses very modestly. Great style with class, never overtly sexy or trashy. She also incorporates a lot of vintage pieces.

  • Abbot

    The nudity is something they preserve for the husband

    .
    Why would any man commit to any woman who does not embrace that manner of behavior?
    .

    Latin America are still encouraged to remain virgins, or at least marry the first man they sleep with.

    .
    Combined with the warm weather and beautiful natural scenery, a feminist-free American man can enter a vast paradise with over fifty million marriage age women. To the dismay of most American women, American feminism comes to a screeching halt at the Rio Grande River.
    .
    http://www.amazon.com/Third-World-Women-Jim-Woodman/dp/0964575558/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

  • dream puppy

    @Hope

    LOL. Maybe not thaaaat Asian. However, there are some great hairstyles for Asian women. During my time in Korea I remember the girls looked SO cute with bangs. Your type of hair is really good for any type of bangs and I think it looks adorable.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__6l-Y2NywwE/TSM0DdnWowI/AAAAAAAAB9Q/E5jtfN4Rrm8/s1600/Long%2BAsian%2BHairstyles3.jpg

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Why would any man commit to any woman who does not embrace that manner of behavior?

    Abbot I think you are forgetting that the whole system helps this women to have access to a modest behaviour with plenty of rewards by remaining chaste and plenty of social drawbacks if they choose not to. In America a modest virgin woman will be ignored and mocked on a sea of sluthood culture, by women and men alike till they are ready to settle down so a virgin will have to endure many years of no dating, no attention, no romance and no social life and as you might know this is not an easy task.
    Those countries system work on a way that as soon as the woman sees her blood the family is in charge of finding then a good husband, the men on those cultures don’t have access to free casual sex, is whether the few prostitutes that are usually in short supply and/or on remote zones so for them their sexual needs can only be meet by a wife so when they express interest on a young girl there is no chance of pumping and dumping because the first thing they do is to talk to his elder that will talk to the chief of the household of the girl and then agree for them to sea each other in front of them talk a little so they both can decide if they want to get marry and then make the wedding preparations, that includes paying to the family of the bride between 3,000 of 5,000 dollars, depending on how much are they willing to pay for the bride and how pretty she is, plus a bride’s present usually jewelry and that the bride has to approve or not for marriage. There is not a lot of time for singlehood or the notion of dating. The whole system is designed in a very different way.
    So don’t jump to the throats of western women so fast, remember also that many men actually enjoy the freedom of choosing if the women are worth sex or commitment, so I really think few men will find this system alluring, YMMV.

  • http://brightstormyday.wordpress.com Stormy

    @dreampuppy:

    I didn’t say American women are puritanical, learn to fucking read.

    I’m saying our culture is fucked up. It embraces this fucked up view about sexuality, essentially shoving sex and its vulgarity down everyone’s throats, then shaming everyone over it.

    People are all fucked up and repressed over sex, whereas in Europe, no, they’re not, but they’re classy about it. Americans repress all sorts of bullshit and it comes out when they drink, it comes out in therapy, it comes out in the number of prescription drugs people buy every year to sedate themselves to a dull and numb existence.

    Meanwhile other cultures embrace it and treat it like what it is. They don’t cover things up or hide it. Like Stephanie Rowling described with Muslim culture and etc.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      People are all fucked up and repressed over sex, whereas in Europe, no, they’re not, but they’re classy about it.

      Eh, they’ve got their own problems. The French have a ton of extramarital sex, but they’re not reproducing. Scandinavians are sexually free but have a very high suicide rate. The English are the most promiscuous country in the world according to some stats, but it’s the “ladettes” acting like sexual hooligans that earn this distinction. It doesn’t make sense to generalize.

  • OffTheCuff

    Stormy, I’ve lived in Europe. It ain’t as grand as you think and they’re not more advanced or moral than we are. Listen to DP a bit, she’s got some good points.

  • Abbot

    ” a virgin will have to endure many years of no dating, no attention, no romance and no social life and as you might know this is not an easy task”
    .
    I believe the topic was non-modest displays in public, not virginity. If a woman wants to marry as a virgin, she should do that early on. Men who wish to marry early as well would be proud to have her for a wife. Men who want to have their fun first in America can also do that by merely heading to Latin America later. You see, everybody gets what they want.

  • dream puppy

    @Stormy- As evidenced by your post, vulgarity is definitely a problem in America.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I believe the topic was non-modest displays in public, not virginity. If a woman wants to marry as a virgin, she should do that early on. Men who wish to marry early as well would be proud to have her for a wife. Men who want to have their fun first in America can also do that by merely heading to Latin America later. You see, everybody gets what they want.

    Okay then. Sorry for the confusion.

  • SayWhaat

    I’ve lived in Europe. It ain’t as grand as you think and they’re not more advanced or moral than we are.

    No, but they’re definitely more accepting of burgeoning sexuality in their children than the U.S. is. You can see evidence of that in their contraceptive advertising – sexual behavior isn’t punished, but carefully guided.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Saywhaat
    It looks like the Dutch are leading the way on sex education to prevent teen pregnancy.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/27/teen-pregnancy-netherlands-sex
    And USA has more problems related to sex than on Europe in general:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006051500830.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie
      Much, if not most sex among young people in the U.S. takes place under the influence of alcohol. This leads to a low rate of condom use. Our culture is one where both women and men are uncomfortable with casual sex, but so determined to see it through they use liquid courage to get the job done. It’s a paradox.

      Also, the U.S. is obviously a lot more heterogeneous than the European countries, and there’s a wider array of views about sex before marriage. There are definitely communities here where it is not OK – though the young people are getting around it via anal sex and “everything but.”

  • filrabat

    @Stormy,

    If there is shame about sex remaining, it’s entirely in the opposite direction. These days, it seems it’s virgins who are shamed, not the whores and players (or at least not as intensely). Maybe it’s simplistic, but it’s all a matter of getting it on ONLY within a committed relationship. Seriously, our post-18 yr old society needs to grow the frak up! (and I point to my own thoroughly misguided generation in this regard – Gen X).

    As for this slut shaming, I don’t see very much of it – except among religious groups and hypocritical player types who themselves want to sow their wild oats and marry a virgin (or close enough so as not to make a big difference).

    I guess it depends on which circles you travel in, but in my experience the great majority of college students and even early 20’somethings were all about partying, sex, and image-consciousness – even back in my day.

  • filrabat

    @Susan

    I believe that American parents are so desperate to have their children be popular – at the top of the heap – often because they never were.

    Hmm, we respect independent minded people, yet don’t respect their independence when it’s unpopular. Contradiction anyone?

    I expeet a 16 yr old to have this attitude, but NOT an adult. If the adults are still suffering from after all these decades of “not being popular”, then what does that say about their ability to separate being a parent from being a buddy? I’ll bet a lot of these parents are also those people who spend way beyond their means, take out huge home equity loans, etc in order to look like they have money.

    It pains me to say this, but “The American Dream” has long devolved from “pursuing your life as you see fit as long as it doesn’t hurt others” – it’s now about conformity, image-consciousness, and get-rich-quickism. If this is the prevailing American Dream, then I proudly call myself The Man Without a Country!!!!!! Of course I do love my country, but not it’s prevailing cultural attitides, and I’m trying to do my small part to change it, simply by setting a day-to-day example for others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat

      I’m trying to do my small part to change it, simply by setting a day-to-day example for others.

      This is noble, and is actually an enormous contribution, in my view.

  • Raddark

    “It pains me to say this, but “The American Dream” has long devolved from “pursuing your life as you see fit as long as it doesn’t hurt others” – it’s now about conformity, image-consciousness, and get-rich-quickism.”

    Congratulations. You have partly figured out the truth. The other part is there never was a real American Dream. It always was about conformity, image-consciousness and scrapping for status. Politely smiling at each other while scheming furiously to show that you are better than them. High school never ends.

  • Jack Amok

    I find 50’s style dresses (and 40’s style hairdos) very sexy, but a woman needs a waist to pull it off.

    The only disagreement I have with this article is that married women shouldn’t pay any attention to it. Once you’re married and loyally committed to your husband and both of you know it – party on! Don’t worry about 1 in 3, go for all three. Highlight a 4th and 5th asset if you got ‘em! So long as you’re highlighting them for your husband, it’s all a plus. Make it a goal to get him to say “I think we’re going to be late for dinner” when he sees you all dressed up for an evening out.

    No man wants to marry the villiage bicycle, but almost every man would love to have his own private racing bike.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jack Amok
      Oh, this post is not for married women, though there are several of us here who like to talk about fashion :)

      No, what I’m addressing here is making a first impression. Women need to understand that whether it’s conscious or not, they have a strategy for attracting men. It’s important to make sure that the strategy is producing the desired results. I hear from a lot of women who are not feeling successful, and the question, “What are you wearing?” is part of the exploration of why not.

  • dream puppy

    Yeah WTF I’m married and very fashionable (to my husband’s chagrin).

    Susan, how about the phenomena of man repelling? Where women wear fashion that is obviously unattractive to men because it is in style. I am a big fan of the drop crotch, as well as oversized crop tops and other ridiculous pieces. Fashion and attracting men can be quite a balancing act, especially for those who really like fashion.
    Good advice is to wear a dress or skirt, as men are usually pretty forgiving when you’re showing leg. Or, if you are wearing something too fashion forward for your man, try to distract him with one your “out of threes”.

    @Hope- Sorry last bit of unrequited fashion advice. You can buy one of those longer black sheath dresses at Macys or whatever and then dress is up a bit to make it more fashionable. Gold braiding and pearls are kinda cool now, as well as oversize jewel patterns. Here is a good dress that is fashionable but also modest (the girl in the pic is taller than you so the dress’d be past your knees)

    http://oi55.tinypic.com/20fe0iw.jpg

  • SayWhaat

    Susan, how about the phenomena of man repelling? Where women wear fashion that is obviously unattractive to men because it is in style.

    http://www.manrepeller.com/

  • OffTheCuff

    I believe that American parents are so desperate to have their children be popular – at the top of the heap – often because they never were.

    I sort of can identify with this. I want to raise my kids so they are not the bottom of the heap, as I was. Surely helping them along socially, getting the guidance I never did, isn’t so bad?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I sort of can identify with this. I want to raise my kids so they are not the bottom of the heap, as I was. Surely helping them along socially, getting the guidance I never did, isn’t so bad?

      Of course not! It’s normal and good to want the best for your children, and having social success is a key part of feeling happy. And as we often discuss here, guidance for males is sorely needed in this culture, and fathers can provide truth that mothers just don’t have re female nature.

      The problem comes when the social success takes precedence over character or even safety. For example, a parent being delighted that her daughter is getting lots of attention from alphas, and who fuels the fire, is just giving her daughter a leg up onto the carousel! Same with underage drinking – your kid can be the popular one if they have kids over to drink, and you can make it happen by purchasing the alcohol, but what is that teaching your kid? That they’re not enough without luring kids for rewards?

      One family in my son’s high school had a swimming pool and hot tub built. Their rather awkward (and unpleasant) daughter suddenly started having parties every weekend, and invitations were highly desirable. But no one actually liked her any better. Once my son was there, and after an hour or so decided to head home. He stopped in the kitchen to thank her parents, and her mother snidely remarked, “Oh, you’ve had your swim and now you’re leaving? Found something better to do?” What did she expect? Her daughter bribed kids to come over – which didn’t engender loyalty.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    though the young people are getting around it via anal sex and “everything but.”

    Many people read about that on my country and they always laugh about that, being a virgin means nothing entering anywhere, except for oral sex, no one in my country will consider an anal a virgin, in fact that will probably place her on the pump and dump faster, because here you will be consider a slut with your hymen, slutting is not about the breaking of the hymen is about sex experience, and even oral sex should be earned by the man by showing commitment, going down the first date is a big indication of a slut that managed to be smart about it, not of a virgin, but then it might be a cultural thing, YMMV.

  • Bob

    I was always rather socially awkward. I don’t want my daughter to have my problems.

    I stick with the basics. I urge her to learn everybody’s name, to return greetings, to be polite even to those who get on her nerves. It seems to be working.

    My son is autistic. I don’t know what to do about him. He seems popular, but then he’s a cute red headed boy. So far.

  • testify222

    The bottom line is that high school never really ends. Those with high SMV enjoy lots of advantages in the workplace and beyond, where you wouldn’t think such “petty” judgements would come into play. Especially in a free and competitive society. Everyone wants some of that high-SMV stuff to rub off on them, and they want to avoid those with low SMV. True personality and “inner beauty” may matter to your parents but it doesn’t matter as far as the SMP is concerned. This is why all of us benefit from understanding social dynamics and employing “game” of some sort.

  • AfroEuro

    True anecdote.
    Maya Angelou gave a talk in my town last night. It is a college town, and at least 90% of the audience were women. A good half of that number were under 25. An embarrasingly high number of these poor young girls were wearing outfits that showed off boobs, butt, and legs…and most were wearing those ridiculous platform heels (which are starting to get popular for some reason) that you see in mainstream porn.

    It was really jarring how, at an event where the speaker talked about her experiences being raped and being an unwed teenage mother, you had an audience full of young women wearing (what they clearly did not understand to be) whores uniforms, ready to go out afterwards to consume alcohol until they can’t walk and make themselves available for their preying male cohorts very dishonorable intentions.

  • AfroEuro

    @testify

    you may be right. But its like a Casino – the House always wins in the long run. If you’re not the House, statistically the best you can do is break even. And the chances of that are slim to none if you play long enough.

  • http://www.2centtab.blogspot.com Samson

    “I didn’t say American women are puritanical, learn to fucking read.”

    I don’t know why, but that opening sentence just made me LMAO at work.

  • Lupo

    The biggest mistake American women make: they show their boobs, rather than wearing a dress. Dress = girl. Boobs = whore.

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  • http://www.themadjewess.wordpress.com MJ

    This is a FABULOUS post.