This email from Tim recently arrived with the subject heading Dating Advice for a Loser. Immediately I was saddened that anyone would label themselves this way, but as I read the letter I felt that Tim has real potential and might benefit from the collective wisdom of the HUS crowd. He sounds prepared to accept reality, to some extent already has, but needs a starting point. For ease of reading, my feedback is interspersed throughout the body of Tim’s email.
Dear Susan,
My name is Tim, and I’m a 39 year old male who hasn’t had any luck with women for more than 10 years now. I’m not very good at flirting or asking women out. I’m a naturally shy guy, and I’m a bit eccentric to boot. I’m pretty nice, though. Strike 3, right? I probably come across as slightly awkward and quirky. I feel like I’m 17, although when I really was 17 I was quite immature and had some idealistic visions about what girls were like and what they wanted that have turned out to not to be true.
SW: Right off the bat, I can see that you’re in need of swallowing the Red Pill, which is a metaphor for the truth about female sexuality. Mating is a brutal process where women winnow out men who they perceive have inferior genes. Good genes are defined by evolution as conveying social dominance, first and foremost. Women also select for compatibility and other long-term positive traits, but making the first cut will usually depend on a self-confident display of maleness.
Some women do aspire to and even achieve feminine ideals, but they are increasingly rare in our culture. It’s important to qualify women according to your standards, and avoid putting them on a pedestal.
I can change. I know it. I already am. I’m getting my life together – I’m about to get my graduate degree in teaching and my first-ever good job next year (2012). I’m taking better care of myself and my house, I’m socializing more, and I’m seeking out dating advice from a few friends, female and male.
SW: You have a very positive attitude, and have already made enormous changes in your life. It sounds like you have some momentum and are moving forward towards your goals. This is a great time to learn about women and begin to put your knowledge to good use.
I need your advice. I recently asked a young woman out. Her name is Kat, and she is probably in her early to mid-twenties. I met her at the local swimming pool, when the teacher I’m doing my student internship with brought our class down 4 times a week. I noticed how pretty she was right away, but I didn’t stare. Over the next several weeks, I couldn’t help glancing at her as she taught some of our kids. She has a beautiful smile, and she genuinely seemed to enjoy working with the kids. I noticed her glancing back at me. I didn’t want to creep her out, so I tried to minimize this, but often when I looked at her, she looked at me.
SW: Mutual, sustained eye contact is a definite indicator of interest. It’s good that you were sensitive to the possibility of creeping her out by staring at her without any indication of mutual attraction. The fact that this phase lasted several weeks is not good – you dithered. Ideally, you would have escalated by teasing, flirting, or interacting in some way. I understand that may sound like an insurmountable obstacle, but you can learn to flirt, and you need to do so.
From a female point of view, your keeping some distance/not making any kind of move would have been a strong indication that you were unavailable or otherwise disinterested. I can tell you that I’ve heard and even said, “He stares at me all the time but he never says anything!” hundreds of times. What you know as approach anxiety will mystify a woman, especially if she finds you physically attractive. Most of us just don’t understand how paralyzing shyness plus the risk of rejection can be.
One day as class was letting out, she came up to me and handed me the report cards she was giving the kids on the swimming progress. I couldn’t think of anything to say, even though I had been planning on telling her what a good teacher she was, both because of her great smile and the way she worked with the kids. I was dying to talk to her to see if she was at all interested in me, an older, shy guy. But did I say anything? No. I just said “Thanks” and tried to smile weakly. I can’t even remember how she reacted. We went our separate ways. We both had jobs to do.
SW: Tim, you need to learn about Game and you need to practice, practice, practice. This is very hard work but the men here can tell you that it is worthwhile and can change your life.
I made up my mind to approach her at the next lesson. As the lesson was ending and she was getting out of the pool, I approached her and said, “I just wanted to let you know what a great teacher I think you are.” She smiled and said thanks. I told her that a big reason for this was her great smile, which the kids really seemed to respond to. Then I stuck out my hand and introduced myself. Again, I can’t remember how she reacted, but we both had jobs to do, so I said, “Well, I’ll see ya later.” I remember she responded with, “Definitely” as we went our separate ways.
SW: A positive development, but too little too late, I fear.
The last swimming lesson was a free swim with both 4th grade classes. The atomsphere was fun and not as serious like the swimming lessons had been. I was asked by one of the teachers to take pictures of the kids as they swam. I tried to flirt with Kat by showing her some of the pictures of the kids swinging from the rope swing. She seemed to enjoy this. I also took a picture of her as she swang, and showed this to her. Again, she seemed to enjoy this.
SW: Good, you found a way to interact socially, and you succeeded in flirting! Cameras are good – taking pics and sharing them is a whole lot easier than thinking up small talk with someone you don’t know.
I really wanted to ask her out at this point, but I couldn’t figure out a good time to do it. We were both at work. We exchanged glances as I left for the day, glances which seemed to me to say, “Ask me out!” Maybe not. I have no clue, really.
SW: Here’s where I want to hit you over the head! It sounds like she was standing there willing you to make a move. And you didn’t do it.
I decided to go to the swimming pool as soon as school let out. The problem was, I had the feeling that she was getting off work just as we were leaving the pool. I did go to the pool after school, about an hour later, but was told that she wasn’t at work. The gal behind the counter, who was also a swimming instructor and who knew I was, asked if I wanted to leave message. Against my better judgment, I asked Kat out on the note and left my phone number.
SW: Ouch. You should have trusted your gut instinct. I think this move signaled weakness, but the biggest problem is that you ceded all control to her.
That was last Wednesday (May 25). I haven’t heard a word. I figure one of several things is going on:
1. She’s already taken (boyfriend/husband; if she’s married, I’m guessing she doesn’t wear her ring in the pool).
SW: I doubt it. If she is, she shouldn’t be sending out those sultry stares. It’s possible she’s looking for some on the side, in which case it’s good you escaped her clutches.
2. She thinks I’m too old for her. I’m 39, but people often think I’m a good 10 years younger than I actually am both because of my boyish looks and personality. I probably don’t act like a confident 39 year old. My hair is slowly graying on the sides, although I keep it pretty short and it’s hard to tell from a distance. Maybe she only realized that I might be older when she saw me up close?
SW: You are a little old for her, especially if she’s in her early 20s. The rule of thumb is half your age +7, so 27 is about the youngest you should be aiming for. I don’t buy the idea that she lost attraction when she saw you up close, because it sounds like the sexual tension persisted after you spoke.
3. She’s not attracted to a guy who isn’t very confident around her (I’m guessing she percieves me this way).
SW: Bingo. Women prefer confident men. That’s discouraging for men who don’t feel confident, and “Be more confident” is not helpful advice. The good news is there are specific behaviors that signal confidence. Flirting in and of itself serves this purpose. This is a skill that can be learned.
The bottom line is that if you don’t think you’re all that, she won’t either. By the way, women love men who are good with kids. It gets us thinking “dad.” Since she obviously enjoys working with children, she’s bound to regard a male teacher positively.
4. She’s not attracted to a guy who asks her out using a note.
SW: Not unless she’s in sixth grade. From a 39 year-old man it’s incomprehensible. It displays enormous vulnerability, and this is a major red flag for women.
5. She’s not attracted to me because of other reasons (I’m short, 5′ 6″, 150 lbs., muscular, but she’s shorter, and she’s not rail thin herself).
SW: Nah, I wouldn’t worry about this. Plenty of guys with Game do fine with your physical attributes. Are you going to be a chick magnet based on your physical traits alone? No, but very few men are. If you’re muscular, that’s good, it sounds like you are in good shape. What’s most important is how you feel about yourself. Women can sniff that out without even realizing what is turning them on or off.
I’m not sure what to do at this point. I know I shouldn’t, but I think about her night and day. I pine for her. My mind knows I shouldn’t, but my heart won’t listen (I’ve always had this problem).
SW: Uh oh, you’ve got her on a pedestal. Face it Tim, you don’t even know this woman. You have only the most cursory observation of her to rely on. Your one-itis is clearly a projection of what you want her to be. That is not real. You should make her qualify herself as a potential partner – that is the right mindset.
What I’d really like to do is to go back to the pool with some of the pictures from the free swim, give them to her, and ask her out again in person, realizing that she might say no.
SW: Well, you have nothing to lose at this point, so why not? My sense is that you will probably need to let this one go, but why not practice the ask and learn from the experience. If you do decide to do this, I would not even reference the note. Pretend it never happened.
Alternatively, I thought of writing her a short note on nice paper containing the pictures and telling her that I understood she wasn’t interested, but that I thought she was an interesting, nice person and to not settle for anything less than a great guy, something nice and positive (and true) like that, and give it to her either in person or not.
SW: No! Do not do this! This is supplicating behavior. You are the great guy. Never give someone positive feedback for not being interested.
Another option is to go swimming at the pool when she’s there, and either ask her out or just try to get to know her better. Gotta stay outta the friend zone, though, right?
SW: This is a good idea, but ideally would have occurred early on. Again, you have nothing to lose. If she is not interested, you’ll know immediately. She’ll make herself scarce and avoid you. Reestablish rapport before making any kind of a move. I’m not sure how the note would play into this scenario.
What do you think? Am I coming on too strong? Not strong enough? Innappropriate time/place? Should I get to know her better? I figure the best I can hope for is that she recognizes that I’m a shy guy trying hard.
SW: That is not the best you can hope for. That is the kiss of death for most women. You need to be a confident guy not trying very hard at all.
I have a lot to offer a woman, I know this deep inside. I guess I really want to talk with her in person one more time before I give up. I feel strongly enough about her that I feel I owe myself that much. At the least, talking with her might let me know whether or not she’s taken already. I’m not asking her out just because she’s young. I’m also attracted to women more my age. Maybe I should just forget about her? This would be difficult, but not impossible.
SW: I’m glad you know your worth – confidence comes from that place. I’m a big believer in saying what you need to say. Go for it if you want, just be prepared for rejection and resolve to learn from it.
Thank you for your blog. I love it. When I found your blog, I felt as if I finally met a woman who understands men. I get so tired of hearing “just be yourself” when this obviously isn’t working for me. It is hard for me, though, to hear what women find attractive in men, because I feel I’m not a lot of those things, but I’m going to try. I’m tired of being lonely, and I have a lot to offer a woman! I just know it!
SW: You are very welcome. I agree that “just be yourself” is worse than useless – it’s counterproductive. Many men waste years feeling like they are failures with women, wondering why “myself” isn’t good enough.
While your situation might seem desperate, I actually found quite a bit in your letter that is promising for the future. You seem to have some awareness of what you’ve been doing wrong, a very positive attitude, and have taken several concrete steps to develop yourself and improve your life, which is great.
The bad news is that you’ve got a long journey ahead of you to realize your objectives. The good news is that there is a map that will show you the way. At 39, you’re still in your prime, and especially if you are attracted to women your own age, you can expect a lot of improvement if you get some Game.
As a starting point, read some of the Being Male blogs on my blogroll. Several of them focus on Game as a way of finding the right woman for a serious relationship or marriage.
I’ll open this up for discussion here. You can learn a lot from the males who comment regularly, and also get a glimpse into female psychology from the women.
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{ 196 comments… read them below or add one }
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I have a feeling this discussion might go the way that Robinson’s did (that was his name right?).
My opinion on these matters is always total submersion in Roissy. You don’t have to become like he is in order to understand and incorporate many of the principles that he so masterfully expounds. His advice to men is too good to ignore, and is about as much of a Red Pill as possible.
I don’t believe this. How can a guy not get laid for 10 years….his head must have exploded long ago!
Why doesn’t he head to a SlutWalk and feed off the sex-positive feminism that radiates from within there?
I thought this blog was to help out girls my age in the hook up culture…not to reiterate beliefs that are spewed by an extreme sect of the internet that are highly infused with pop psychology and not entirely based in scientific fact or reality.
@stormy
It’s deja vu all over again. Didn’t we have this conversation at Rivelino’s? Just one click away you’ll find my Mission Statement:
How does this post diverge from that mission?
To which extreme sect of the internet do you refer? The one you inhabit? I’ve been under the impression that you are a Game blog hag, having been personally acquainted with Vincent I, and now a regular at Riv’s. Your objection doesn’t compute.
@stormy:
What part of the “hookup culture” is based in scientific reality? What does that mean?
Are you not getting laid frequently enough? Or are you, and it’s not doing it for you, as you need to find a husband?
i would try internet dating, it is the only way that I know of where you can get a lot of dates fairly quickly and learn how to date. It’s a fantastic way of meeting lots of new people and just learning how to interact with women. Also, it will surely get you stop putting women on a pedestal because there are some crazies out there!
Secondly, a friend of ICs family is in his 50s and he only got married last year to what it sounds like is the first woman he’s ever gone on several dates with. He was shy and lived on a farm and didn’t get out very much – what I am saying is there is hope and 39 isn’t that old!
Deidre´s last [type] ..Its 3 AM- I must be lonelyor something
This guy alluded to having previous girlfriends and sexual experiences but didn’t go into any details at all. That puzzles me.
I don’t get how having a crush for the first time in 22 years causes amnesia like that. Weird.
Workshy Joe´s last [type] ..Not Gay- Not Mexican- Not Beta
Tim,
I think Susan’s given sound advice here. Definitely worth a shot- just treat it casual- nothing too intense.
If you have blown it by dithering then chalk it down to experience.
.
On the other hand she might like the ‘shy’ you- I have been with a few shy guys and found it quite endearing- I don’t mind a few vulnerabilities.
However, pound for pound, Sue is right, might as well hide excessive shyness.
.
Actually you might find that your new job removes your shy tendencies- when hollering at the buggers you cant be meek can you?
.
Good luck though, with your love life and the teaching!
Cant wait to hear the next instalment…
whiteboykrispy wrote:
I took that very medicine last year myself. It was horrible, but it was exactly what I needed to read.
Workshy Joe´s last [type] ..Not Gay- Not Mexican- Not Beta
I’m going to respectfully disagree with internet dating. Tim’s problem is precisely what internet dating facilitates — avoiding face to face interaction. I wrote a rather in depth article a few months ago about why internet dating should be a supplement at best for most people. Check it out HERE.
Tim’s in desperate need of Game 101. Maybe even a remedial course. His problem isn’t that he’s a bad guy, or ugly, or whatever. It’s that he has no clue how to interact with women in a way they find sexy. And sitting behind a computer will not help him gain that skill. Only practice in the real world will help.
Here’s my advice: First, read a book on basic game. I like How to Approach Hot Women, Date Them, & Have Lots of Sex…Without Being an Asshole, but there are plenty out there. “How to Approach Hot Women” is a toned down version of Mystery and Style, built for guys who aren’t going to do the bullshit peacocking and tattoo lips on their necks. It’s accessible, short, and outlines the basics of Game.
Second, go out and talk to women. Set a goal per day… I recommend ten a day to start. Your goal is not to get dates. It’s simply to talk to women and learn one step at a time. The first thing will be the approach — how to start a conversation without seeming like a weirdo. Practice until you get comfortable with it. Then, add something new. It may sound counter-intuitive, but I recommend learning the art of the neg second. Learn to take girls off of pedestals. The book I recommended talks in detail about how to neg without being a jerk. Teasing… not insulting.
Rinse, wash, repeat with each step of Game, until you’re comfortable with each step. Again… You are not trying to get a date. You’re learning to talk to women.
The ironic thing is that you’ll probably get plenty of dates before you get through the book. By not trying — by making your goal simply talking to women and being dominant — you’ll generate attraction.
It’s also going to involve broadening your social circle. Here’s an article on the value of social groups. Half the trick to meeting women is meeting women. By that, I mean you need to be somewhere with women you don’t know. So… go to new bars. Hang out in bookstores. Talk to women in the supermarket. (It’s cheesy, but remember… you’re just talking to women, not looking for a date!)
And don’t rely on the internet. Without person-to-person skills, you’re likely to go through a long list of first dates with no attraction because you still don’t know how to act around or towards women.
hambydammit´s last [type] ..Illinois Civil Union Law Goes Into Effect Thousands Flee the State
First, Tim, grow a bloody pair! Second, realize that there is no “right moment” to ask a woman out. The right moment is always right now! Women absolutely DESPISE diffident men who are always waiting for that magical moment to strike. But you have to MAKE the moment. You are essentially acting like a woman, which naturally is a major turn-off to women. Stop looking for excuses to talk to her, forget about the stupid pictures and the ridiculous note, just walk directly up to her and say something like this.
“Look, I’m sorry I was such a complete coward before. Here’s the deal. I like you, I think you’re pretty, and I think we’d hit it off well together. Come have a drink with me this afternoon/tonight.”
That’s about the only chance you have of salvaging the situation, since you’ve done such a thorough job of convincing her that you’re an undesirable wuss. The thing is, YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE. If women make you nervous, let this always be your mantra:
“When you go in the lion’s den you don’t tippy toe in, you carry a spear, you go in screaming like a banshee, you kick whatever doors in, and say, ‘where’s the son of bitch.’ If you go in any other way your gonna lose.”
And if it’s too late, remember, there are plenty of girls on the girl tree.
Lol@Pjay.
Wow,Im sorry for Tim.He needs to get his inner game in checc.
I do not have a dog in this fight but I can only wonder about the missing 20 years of this guys life story. “I was clueless at 17, now I am 39 and ready to get some action…” WTF. There are very large pieces of this puzzle missing, imho.
When I was 17 I was clueless and got my little broken all to shreds. So what; it is hard not to go thru that.
When I got to college I just decided that rejection was not so bad and since I got righteous reactions often enough I thought, “Just go for it. And do not waste time with weak responses. On to the next one.”
I had never heard of game; I just hated failure in this area and was never really un-comfortable around women. So I plowed ahead trying all sorts of things. And sometimes it worked.
Anyway, I cannot relate to this “20 years went by without success with women” shite. I mean, there is always some chick that wants to be with you and connecting with her is always about a million times heathier than giving up even for a second, much less years.
I think that your advice was spot on .
@Hamby
That is of course the pitfall with internet dating is you can spend a lot of time online, but it still was helpful for me.
Deidre´s last [type] ..Its 3 AM- I must be lonelyor something
Where was Tim’s dad or friends to teach him all this when he was 17? The best thing to do to get rid of shyness is simply approach every woman you can and just talk to them. The highschool girl, the chick behind the counter, the old lady buying vegetables, the married wife of a friend, a stranger waiting at the crosswalk for the man to go green, it doesn’t matter. You’re not trying anything on them and you keep doing it until it’s as easy as breathing. Then you’ll find when you notice that girl who gives you those eyes and is that pretty she makes your heart stop, you’ll be able to walk right up to her without missing a step and you’ll look like the guy who has confidence coming out of his pores. That’s half the work done right there.
Tim,
Excellent advice from both Susan and Hamby. Not much I can add to their very comprehensive comments.
I’ll second whiteboykrispy’s comment to basically read the Roissy blog from start to finish (you can skip the political/societal analysis). In terms of what Workshy said, I’d use this analogy. You’ve OD’ed on poison/bad medicine your whole life. You’ve got to barf it all up for hours on ends while your stomach is in pain but you’ll get it out of your system.
Good luck.
“got my little heart broken all to pieces” would be more coherent.
I guess my simplified advice to Tim would be
1. Learn to be the iniator and keep at it. Stop taking rejection personally. Even when it is personal, remember your mission and move on.
2. Broaden your target list. Rarely turn down an invitation. GET SOME EXPERIENCE, DUDE!!!
And by no means is this primarily about sex. It is just that guys can never get anywhere with girls/women by thinking about it too much. We are different in ways that make theorizing a low-yield endeavor. Trial and error/ don’t give up/ give yourself a break — all good.
But the waiting until 39 to bear down on it creeps me out somehow. Somethings wrong with this picture.
@whiteboykrispy
“I have a feeling this discussion might go the way that Robinson’s did”
you are right.
@susan
we did this already! this guy is in even worse shape the robinson.
the answer again, in five easy steps.
repeat after me, tim:
1. kat will not save me
2. no girl will ever save me
3. no girl will ever save me because girls are not in the saving business
4. in fact, not only will a girl never save me, but all girls want to BE SAVED, so i better grow a pair of balls and turn into a hero and a monster killer. being a sensitive romantic is strictly for LOSERS. sensitive romantics only get laid in the movies. in real life, sensitive romantics get IGNORED.
5. in fact, screw girls. girls are just a side dish in the feast of life. i am my own salvation. i am the center of my universe. i am the prize.
Rivelino´s last [type] ..Does she talk
SW: You are a little old for her, especially if she’s in her early 20s. The rule of thumb is half your age +7
Um, not at all. I am older than Tim, and I date women in their early 20s all the time.
Where does this ‘rule of thumb’ come from?
I mean,
“Its Saturday Night and I aint got nobody. I have some money cause I just got paid. I just want someone to talk to, I’m in an awful way…”
20 years???
Tim—
All of Susan’s advice to you was very good, if only baby steps from where you are. But baby steps are what you need to start with.
I’m coming from a place similar to that of whiteboykispy. We’re both alpha’s by Roissy’s criteria. We’re both partly naturals and somewhat learned, in my case largely self taught being a lot older than his just graduated college self.
First thing is target selection. You describe this girl as very pretty and in her early twenties. If I take the very pretty literally that makes her an 8 on the 10 scale and way out of your current league. For alphas only. If I knock that down to a 7 she’s still one hell of a reach from where you’re at now, and pretty much a lesser alpha nut to crack with your age disparity especially.
Also you’re not really bringing some of the attributes mid twenties girls sometimes go for in mid to late thirties guys – established career success and worldly confidence. You seem like you have decent career prospects, not stellar, but you’re very late out of the gate as you near completing graduate education credentials for a teaching job. So this girl is way out of your league at this stage. That’s part of the red pill too. If you got great at game, maybe not. Though for you to get THAT good from where you are is a stretch.
You will find e.g. divorcees in their early or mid thirties vastly easier to start on. Never married at that age are likely to be too jaded and hardened for you to deal with (or for many men to want to deal with).
All the advice Susan gave you was soft sell light game advice. She probably learned much of it by reading Roissy’s, and from commenters here who have, a lot.
The best place for you to start is probably Athol Kay’s blog and ebook, in addition to this blog. He also has a print version. Easy to google him. He’s oriented to married man game, but he explains game in a palatable beginner’s way that’s applicable to first attracting women as well. Then I’d buy RooshV’s cheap paperback or ebook, Bang. Easy to google him too. Well read either first. Then start reading Roissy’s archives starting back at the beginning. Ignore his anti-feminist and rightist political posts if you like and to save time. There weren’t many of that type in the early days.
Your game and basic framework for understanding what turns women on is VERY weak but can be greatly improved, if you take these steps and work at it.
Tim–
this is a link to a comment of mine that I left on Rivelino’s blog that I made in response to his highlighting a guy who’d emailed him with a similar rank game beginner’s request for advice. Riv put it up in a tab at the top of his blog, along with a lot of other bits from other commenters.
http://alpharivelino.wordpress.com/gm1/
This is all outer game, or actually interacting with the girl, and is oriented towards early interaction. There’s also inner game, which is actually improving who you are, not just in what you signal. It’s about confidence through accomplishments, interesting to girls pursuits, developing your social network, and so on.
Tim,
(whisper) try a few game tactics by all means but please take Roissy’s red pill with a dash of salt.
He has some pretty unhealthy attitudes that might cause a nice girl to run a mile.
J
@Commissar
Excellent advice. It’s about getting a ton of experiences under your belt, until you’ve inured yourself to the pang of anxiety. This is the same advice I give all young people looking to meet someone – smile, make eye contact, chat up everyone you can during the day. I do this and I make connections everywhere I go. I’m an extrovert, but even an introverted person can increase the number of personal interactions during the course of the day.
@Rivelino
Great comment, I cosign all of it.
@smack
The rule of thumb was introduced here by guys, actually. I don’t have an opinion on the matter. I will say that among the 21-24 year old women I know, none is looking for a man near 40. They’re all trying to meet a nice 27 yo who is thinking about settling down. If a woman wants children, it makes sense to seek a partner relatively close in age. And research shows that women prefer a man 2.5 years older than themselves. That’s also the age spread with the lowest divorce rate, FWIW.
@Doug1
Your comment is a great summation of the high points of game. Thanks for sharing.
@Rivelino: 5. in fact, screw girls. girls are just a side dish in the feast of life. i am my own salvation. i am the center of my universe. i am the prize.
In this specific case, I have to disagree with Susan above. I do agree that in general, your advice is good.
But Tim is very far away from being able to say or do what you advocate. In fact, I fear that he’d feel so overwhelmed by the distance he’s more liable to give up – totally. He needs something that’s much more like baby steps, and you’re advocating he jump a canyon.
At the age of 39, that sounds ridiculous, I know. It’s hard to imagine Tim progressing to the point where he could have a reasonable relationship with a woman before he’s ready to retire, especially if he’s taking baby steps.
But I personally know of one case where it happened just like that. My widowed aunt met a lifelong bachelor at the age of 60 (I believe he was slightly older). Everyone told her that she was crazy. He was a lifelong bachelor for a reason, and whatever it was, it couldn’t be good.
They married anyway and were very happy for about twenty years, until he died. She’s still around at the age of 95, and mourns for him much more than for her first husband (the father of her children), who was more than a bit of an dictatorial SOB.
Joe´s last [type] ..Something New All Summer Long…
As a 39 year old who only started learning game 2 years ago I guess I should throw in my two cents.
First, to everyone who’s incredulous at the 20 years…it’s easy to do. If you’re a Christian (therefore NOT looking for quickies), work a job with screwy hours and little contact with females, it’s really easy to let time slip by just going about your daily life. I know. I did it. For 15 years.
Now, on to Tim. I have to agree with Vox. You really do have to just swing at some point. Servers are great practice for everything from just talking to women to trying out new aspects of Game. They HAVE to talk to you; its what they get paid to do. Unless you are off the creepy scale, they’ll be glad to have someone interesting and not crabby to talk to.
Don’t try to learn GAME all at once. Take it in little bites. Work on body language, openings/approaches, whatever strikes your interest. I started with eye contact. Practice it until you can get results every time you do that skill. Move on then.
I would also suggest taking some time and giving yourself a cold hard appraisal…but an honest one. Yes, there are things to fix. There are also things that are good, if poorly used/displayed. Be honest about both.
To Susan, no offense, but the 21-24 girls may SAY they don’t want a guy near 40. My own experience says that if an interesting enough guy comes along, that standard goes out the window. Also, data shows that when divorced men get remarried, it is to a woman 10 years younger on average. The only folks who ever give me a hard time about the girls I date are guys in their mid 20′s, unhappily married men, and women my own age. All have ulterior motives for disliking a 39 year old man dating a 24 year old woman.
Hope this helps out. I know what it’s like to wake up and find that YEARS have gone by.
DD
She’s great with kids, easy smile suggests she’s friendly, easily confident in who she is / her appearance since she’s in swim clothes all day. Sounds like a great girl, definitely girlfriend material. And I know you’ve thought about getting her out of that swimsuit. I bet you’re thinking of slowly drawing your fingers across her soft skin, letting your hands explore every inch of that beautiful body, aren’t you?
Remember two years ago when she got drunk and had that three way in front of everyone at that frat house? Remember when she was 18 and got back at her ex-boyfriend by falsely accusing him of rape?
How do you know that either of that isn’t true?
Susan’s right, you’ve put this girl on a pedestal. You’re so smitten that you’re letting your fantasy of who this girl might be cloud your perception of who she really is. This girl and every girl after her has to prove to you she’s worth having in your life long-term. She hasn’t done that yet.
Bottom line, you don’t know her.
That was a very bad move. The Attraction Forums right now. Buy magic bullets and practice. Yep, it will be painful and sometimes humiliating. Other times, it will be a hot 23 year old kneeling in front of you sucking your… well, you get the idea. Stick around here too as Susan and the female commentators (and male) can give you some very good incite on the way women really are.
And if it sounds like I’m belittling you, think again. I’m about 7-12 months ahead of where you are right now.
Susan
If you ask the conscious fore-brain of a woman what sort of mate it wants, the answer is always directed towards the long term requirements of nest building.
If you ask the lizard hind-brain what makes it tingle, the answer might be different. And the “age gap” would be a minor factor either way.
Trust me on this.
Watch the old series, “Lonesome Dove”. Robert Duvall and Diane Lane.
It was the frontier. Lots of instincts got acted on without much of a filter and nobody was thinking long term. No one was sure they would survive to get there.
@Joe
Good points. It reminds me of the story of Julia Child and her husband Paul. When they met, she was a 31 yo virgin and he was a rather effete 41 yo bachelor. And from that moment on they could barely keep their hands off one another. With the average life expectancy at 80+, giving up at 39 is insanity!
Had to agree with the guys, Susan.
Men’s negative qualities for hooking up are inversely proportional to how attracted the woman is, (is the same rule of how much BS/crazy a man endures for a woman, it depends on how hot she is and/or how many options he has, just in this case is gina tingle and not looks or option) at least in this SMP.
So he should just go for whatever he fancies, after he is ready of course, and chances are he will succeed on some level.
@DaveD
No offense taken, I find your experience enlightening. I hear what women say, but men see what they do, and that always trumps intention. I do want to clarify one thing – Tim said it has been ten years since he was successful with women. He does allude to feeling like a 17 yo, but I don’t think he meant to say that he has zero experience with women. Ten years is a long time, but as you say, time flies. What is important is that Tim woke up, began working hard to get his life in order, and is highly motivated to improve his circumstances.
@Rum
I do agree with you re short-term vs. long-term mating. This is always a balance that women must strike, and their success varies, as do their goals. Obviously, I’m writing here for women who are focused on the long-term goal of marriage. I do not believe that women must choose between a bad boy tingle and a nice guy sexless marriage. Many good guys can be sexually attractive, as long as they keep their nest building behaviors in check until monogamy with considerable sexual attraction has been secured.
@Rum
I love that series! Wow, I hadn’t even realized that was Diane Lane. I can imagine that when time is short, holding off on sex goes right out the window. I’ve always wondered how long I would last on a desert island. My guess is, not long, with any man who is “doable.” Tingle is relative.
For a while – an amazingly long while – I had a 20 something girl friend when I was twice that. But we got to know each other living in a house of total raving madness where drug excesses and mindless violence were not unimaginable. Some things happened with a knife — which I cleverly turned into a panoramic blood portrait on the living room wall. It was my blood mostly but it was art; in its own way. It was way, way outside her normal Jap-ish comfort zone.
But Susan, it worked. For sweet long time, I was in her mind vastly more interesting than any suitable long term guy she was an age mate of. The best part is we are still friends. It helps that we are both rampantly successful in our fields nowadays. No harm no foul.
She asked me directly once not to let her get hurt and I said OK.
I regarded that promise as binding.
Things can turn out good; just not forever- most likely.
Encouraging story from DaveD. It really is never too late to make changes to get what you want.
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Generally speaking, I think the idea of taking smaller steps is better than trying to do to much all at once.
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Being asked out via a note? The only thing worse is if it were sent through a mutual friend.
I don’t have a problem with guys wanting to date women that age. But I secretly wonder about the daddy issues in women who choose to date men that much older.
Something doesn’t smell right about Mr. Tim. Why is the story of every over 30 male virgin the same? They are all successful men professionally and financially or about to be like Mr. Tim but women ignore them. Financial and professional success and success with women go together. I have never found a case where they didn’t.
I think Mr. Tim is going to be another White & Nerdy in a few months following the same trajectory White & Nerdy did. Anytime I have seen a man over 30 who says that he’s a virgin he always does things that promote the elite depopulation agenda. This is no coincidence. These over 30 male virgins are here to promote gender war which serves the elite’s depopulation agenda.
when i was 50 years old i fell in love with my 30 year old dance teacher, my first one and only true love….this is the song that expresses exactly how i feel to this day….http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sting+she+walks+this+earth&aq=0&oq=sting+she+…….i gave her silk and poems and songs; i cleaned her gutters and planted flowers around her house; i adored her 5 year old daughter as if she was my own; we played……i was willing to give my very life for her and her child, which is the real bottom line for women; would he DIE for you?…..i did everything wrong, according to game and i did not win her love……but i wrote the best songs i have ever done…………………….ergo: good game=no art….and, women are kind of stupid….lol……cheers
i’m tim (obviously not my real name). gosh, where do i start. first of all, thanks for the advice. i do appreciate everyone’s input.
@ jess: thanks for your encouragement. you seem like the kind of woman i’m most compatible with. i want to date someone like you.
@ workshy joe/rum: i didn’t detail all my sexual experiences with women over the last 20 years or so because the goddamn email i sent susan was long enough. i’ve had 4 girlfriends/lovers throughout my 20s/early 30s and several one-night stands, and i initially hooked up with all of them using none of the advice about ‘game’ given here and other places. i was nice, cute/handsome, and interesting enough that the girls pretty much came to me, with minimal effort on my part. now, it seems as though those types of girls/women are few and far between, and i feel i have to learn some new skills.
what have i been doing for the past 8 or so years? caring for elderly family members, fuckin around, not taking life and dating seriously. guess i just wanted to be alone for a while. now i don’t. is it too late for me? maybe, but probably not, especially if i practice some social skills for interacting and flirting with women.
@ deidre/hambydammit: i tried internet dating last year. a lot of work and not much to show for it. i’ll probably try it again, but not to the detriment of getting out and interacting with real people face to face.
@ vd: i like your advice. i’m going to write down exactly what you said to say on a 3″ X 5″ card, memorize it, and carry it in my back pocket just in case. fuck me, you believed that?! seriuosly, good advice. thanks.
@ commisar: my parents divorced when i was a little boy, and my dad was an absent prick who sexually molested children, including my sister and me. mostly, i learned who NOT to be from him, although he taught me to love the mountains.
@ doug1: thanks for your advice about inner/outer game. you’re probably right that she’s outta my leauge. however, i’ve got an ace up my sleeve: i’ve inherited a large amount of very valuable property in my small town that will make me damn near a millionaire in a few years. in a few years, i’m going to build myself a beautiful house (i’ve worked as a carpenter), buy my first new vehicles ever, and live a sensible but kickass, fun-filled life for the rest of my years. lots of women would love to have fun with me, i think. i’ve just got to convince them of this. and i will.
@ joe: i think i’m closer than you think. maybe not, but it doesn’t feel that way. actually, the more i forget my old self, the more authentic confidence i’ll project that women won’t be able to ignore, especially when i approach them in a casual and friendly way, just like my authentic self. i’m thinking within a few years at the most, i’ll have a steady girlfriend, just like i want. “a few years? that’s a fuckin long time!” you might be saying. i’m patient. i’ve gotta work up to this.
@ daved: good advice, and thanks for your encouragement.
@ michael of charlotte: yer cuttin a little close to the bone, there buddy. my sex life is private until i decide to share it. doesn’t sound like you have my best interests at heart. i don’t care where you are.
@ aldonza: i didn’t ask her out using a note on purpose. i planned on speaking with her face to face, but she wasn’t there. i didn’t think too much before scribbling the note. bad call on my part. keep in mind that her place of work was the only way for me to contact her. should i have waited until she was at work?
@ david jones: i’m not a virgin, i’m not financially successful nor will teaching hardly will make me so, i’m not a nerd, i’m not white, and i’m not here to promote gender wars. fuck off.
@ daffyyd: yeah, women do seem kinda stupid sometimes. then again, so do guys.
tim here again. when i said i haven’t had any luck with women for more than 10 years, i meant dating. one night stands don’t count. those are easy. some women are so easily fooled. i’m through with that. i want something more.
To Tim,
Just my two cents, but I usually follow the “don’t eat where you crap” rule. If in the event that you are rejected, you two are still going to be seeing each awkward day from thereon at work. Due to your soon to be inheritance, you could always leave your work, but if you were any other person you might not have that luxury.
Otherwise, I wish you good luck on your journey of personal growth.
better link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfzlXdlWiYU…..
Tim, I’m gonna toss in my thoughts. (I’m a woman, late 20s.)
1) Making conversation and asking people out are learnable skills. The more you practice, the better you get. Building a relationship is a big task, but it’s made out of little, tractable steps. You introduced yourself; that was a good step 1. You had a conversation with her; that was step 2. The next step is to ask her out politely, in person. You can practice all the individual steps with a bunch of women, and you will get better at them.
2) This might sound horrible, but learn to be comfortable with rejection. If you ask a woman for something and she says no, it is not the end of the world. It doesn’t mean you’ve done anything wrong, it’s just that no sane human being is going to say yes to every request. Also, there are a lot of women in the world, and your goal is not to get all of them to want you; it is to get a reasonable number of them to want you, where this number is much smaller than the total number of women in the world. You can make a game out of rejections; for every ten, you get to buy yourself a martini. (I am an amateur writer, and for every ten writing rejections, I buy myself a martini. Martinis are delicious. Easy on the vermouth, though.)
3) Do what you can to quit putting women on pedestals. It’s no fun for you, and it’s actually no fun for us either. When a guy I don’t know very well goes on and on about what a beautiful person I am inside and out, it doesn’t make me feel appreciated; it makes me feel ignored, and a little frightened. I think this is one of those places where you can fake it til you make it; just don’t go overboard with the praise, and don’t ever beg.
4) It is totally legitimate to script interactions for yourself beforehand, particularly when the interactions involve asking for something concrete. Suppose you want to ask her out on a date. You can plan a general message (“I think you’re cute, and was wondering if you’d like to go to dinner with me on Friday”), a venue (“How about George’s? They have great hamburgers”), a way to back out if she refuses (generally, women go out of their way to make this easy and face-saving for you by providing an excuse, so you can just say “Too bad. Well, I have some errands to run; see you later.”), and a thing to say if she says yes (“Great; George’s at 7:30! I’ve got some errands to run now, but I’ll be looking forward to Friday.”)
(I am an amateur writer, and for every ten writing rejections, I buy myself a martini. Martinis are delicious. Easy on the vermouth, though.)
This is a great philosophy I will do the same with my rejections. I also will do the same when job applications bounce back, but I will get me something different than calories I want to lose some weight
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@Rum
Then you are an honorable man, and I wish more were like you.
@David Jones
I don’t see any similarity between Tim and W&N. Tim is not in the least bitter, he takes full responsibility for his own life, knowing that only he can do what it takes to make it better. If anything he is too respectful of women, not looking for a gender war. And as he makes clear, he’s no virgin.
@Rae
Thanks for your comment, I think it contains lots of great advice for Tim. I think what you said about responding to over-the-top praise is interesting – I often say that women don’t want admiration or affection they haven’t earned – well, at least not mentally healthy women. When a guy goes all in too soon, we do indeed feel ignored. Like it’s not about who we are, it’s just about what he wants to feel.
Tim, thanks for joining us.
Recall your previous experiences with women. Why not use that as your “jumping off point”?
How did you approach your last girlfriend? What did you say? etc, etc.
Rivelino’s comment was right on the money. Excellent.
Susan wrote:
This is why guys like HUS. Susan isn’t fighting the battle of the sexes. She’s trying to arrange an armistice.
Workshy Joe´s last [type] ..Not Gay- Not Mexican- Not Beta
This is 2011. Don’t we have Amazon Createspace and Lulu now?
Workshy Joe´s last [type] ..Not Gay- Not Mexican- Not Beta
tim here. i’m going back to her work to ask her out in person, much like you, rae, or you, vd, suggested. the thing is, i don’t really know when she works. i’ll just have to guess and hope for the best. i don’t want to creep her out or make her think i’m a stalker, which i’m not. plus, she’s at work. she’s got shit to do, and i don’t want to make things awkward or difficult for her and her supervisor/boss. and i’m certainly not going to go back over and over again. i figure i’ve got one more chance to get this right. this is the advice i really need that none of you are giving me. how do i approach her at work given these issues? how do i approach her at work given these issues?
p.s. i don’t work where she works. the swimming program was temporary.
To Tim and all the other shy guys out there…
Go to this website right now:
http://www.succeedsocially.com
[Susan, you should check it out, too... it's really good stuff and should be on your list of source material]
Read every page. Do what the man suggests. I would say this is the very best website regarding social skills and a building a healthy social life.
With good social skills and a healthy social life, meeting and talking to women becomes far easier.
Regarding online dating – tread carefully. The women will instantly screen for height. Tim, you’re 5’6″ and while women will talk a good game about being attracted to shorter guys, it’s a lie in regards to online dating.
The Private Man´s last [type] ..50-000 Blog Views – Congratulate Me- Dammit
tim here.
@ the private man: i’ve found this to be true.
Maybe Tim should educate himself on the garbage this society produces and the laws that support them. Then his fear won’t be of approach and initiating, but of apprehension and fear of being used, abused, and kicked by them with the full blessing of state behind them. Maybe Tim should realize at his age, women aren’t judging him based on dominance, but rather he should judge them based on actions, their past, and the trail of destruction that many of them have left behind. And if the guy has any soot of logical thought and reasoning, he’ll simply come to conclusion that he’s been lucky as hell to make it this far while many of his peers have either been taken to the cleaners and hung out to dry or ended up in more dire straits than he has ever been in.
@Runningman/Tim @ joe: i think i’m closer than you think. maybe not, but it doesn’t feel that way.
After seeing your responses today, I believe you. If (and when) you decide to fixate less on this one girl and jump into the larger pool of potential-women-to-date, you’ll find (like I did) that it ain’t so bad. You’re good enough, and it takes little more than a smile and a pleasant demeanour to get started.
Oh, and once you do get started, you’ll find that pretty much everything else is optional anyway. Being yourself is just fine.
Joe´s last [type] ..Something New All Summer Long…
Anon wrote:
Bottom line? Don’t feed the marriage-industrial complex. Starve the beast.
I don’t agree that women aren’t judging Tim on all sorts of wacky criteria, but I do agree that he should do some serious judging of his own too.
I’m only a year younger than Tim and if I look back on my life I’m quite happy that I’ve never been married and never had kids. Good point.
Workshy Joe´s last [type] ..Not Gay- Not Mexican- Not Beta
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Tim–
Yes.
how do i approach her at work given these issues?
First, don’t worry about awkward. If she’s interested enough to go out, all such sins will be forgiven. There is no “awkward”. Put it from your mind. Lion’s den, remember?
I would first stop by when the store or whatever isn’t too busy and ask if she was there. If yes, proceed, if no, tell her co-worker that you used to work with her and stopped in to say hello. Ask when she’ll be in. Most often, the co-worker will tell you without a fuss. Keep it brief, don’t offer any more explanations or justfications, and don’t press if the co-worker won’t tell you. You can always call the store (or whatever) later and ask if she’s in. Again, don’t worry, they won’t remember your voice from a 30-second conversation.
If/when she’s in, just walk up to her, say “Hey, how’re you doing.” If she smiles and looks pleased to see you, ask her if she’s got a break soon. If she says yes, ask her if she wants to grab coffee or cigarette or whatever. You’ll already know she’s probably interested, so you can ask her out with confidence while making small talk on the break. If she smiles and looks pleased to see you, but doesn’t have a break, then ask her out immediately: “Have dinner with me tonight [or whenever you had in mind].” Don’t tell her where or try to talk her into it, you don’t ever try to convince a girl to be attracted to you. It’s binary. She is or she isn’t.
Remember that a girl will always drop almost EVERYTHING if a guy she likes expresses interest. Girls will ditch boyfriends and even fiances simply because someone more attractive expressed interest. And if she can’t get out of it for some reason but is interested, she will ALWAYS suggest an alternative date. Never, ever suggest an alternative date to a woman. That’s her job, you’ve already done your bit.
If she doesn’t appear pleased to see you and doesn’t smile, then exit gracefully. Don’t ask her out, simply make a little small talk, smile, and tell her it was nice to see her again. Then leave and don’t look back. Spare yourself the humiliation of engaging in bitter gamma dramatics, the oh-so-meaningful “have a nice life” and so forth. In life, unlike sports, learn to accept losing with style and grace and you’ll eventually find that you win a lot more.
I forgot to add that you don’t need to apologize for being a coward before, because by virtue of hunting her down and approaching her at work, you have cleansed the blot from your escutcheon. If she asks you why you didn’t ask her out before, tell her in a completely unapologetic manner you that you used to be a wuss, but you got better.
Never apologize to a girl in whom you are interested unless you kill her cat or kiss her mother. Women despise weakness and they tend to hear apologies as confessions of weakness. (We are talking about casual acquaintances here, I’m not saying you don’t apologize to your wife of 25 years when you step on her foot.)
is this guy real
Rivelino´s last [type] ..Does she talk
Bottom line, you don’t know her.
Actually I think that we do know her, and we have heard from her many times. Right now she’s very likely sitting at home writing a blog entry or a magazine piece about how “There are no good men out there!” and “Why doesn’t anyone ever ask me out?” Perennial best-sellers, she really can’t miss.
Tim, just chalk it up as practice. You still seem to be infatuated with this one girl… Just the other day I stopped traffic to save a turtle in the road; I picked it up and carried it over to a pond. Just as I was about to set it down it pee’d all all over me. I was so worried about the bitey end I didn’t think about the squirty end. Does that mean I will never try to pick up a turtle again, no, but I learned a lesson for the next time.
We are the same age bro, I just got divorced and was thrown headfirst into this chaotic dating market. Some days your gonna get bit, some days pissed on, but you live and learn each day.
Take your lesson and move on to the next one.
Some thoughts on the supposed “age rule”:
“Youth was the time for happiness, its only season; young people, leading a lazy, carefree life, partially occupied by scarcely absorbing studies, were able to devote themselves unlimitedly to the liberated exultation of their bodies. They could play, dance, love, and multiply their pleasures. They could leave a party, in the early hours of the morning, in the company of sexual partners they had chosen, and contemplate the dreary line of employees going to work.
They were the salt of the earth, and everything was given to them, everything was permitted for them, everything was possible. Later on, having started a family, having entered the adult world, they would be introduced to worry, work, responsibility, and the difficulties of existence; they would have to pay taxes, submit themselves to administrative formalities while ceaselessly bearing witnesses–powerless and shame-filled–to the irreversible degradation of their own bodies, which would be slow at first, then increasingly rapid; above all, they would have to look after children, mortal enemies, in their own homes, they would have to pamper them, feed them, worry about their illnesses, provide the means for their education and their pleasure, and unlike in the world of animals, this would last not just for a season, they would remain slaves of their offspring always, the time of joy was well and truly over for them, they would have to continue to suffer until the end, in pain and with increasing health problems, until they were no longer good for anything and were definitively thrown onto the rubbish heap, cumbersome and useless.
In return, their children would not be at all grateful, on the contrary their efforts, however strenuous, would never be considered enough, they would, until the bitter end, be considered guilty because of the simple fact of being parents. From this sad life, marked by shame, all joy would be pitilessly banished. When they wanted to draw near to young people’s bodies, they would be chased away, rejected, ridiculed, insulted, and, more and more often nowadays, imprisoned. The physical bodies of young people, the only desirable possession the world has ever produced, were reserved for the exclusive use of the young, and the fate of the old was to work and to suffer. This was the true meaning of solidarity between generations; it was a pure and simple holocaust of each generation in favor of the one that had replaced it, a cruel, prolonged holocaust that brought with it no consolation, no comfort, nor any material or emotional compensation.”
You don’t know how wrong you are. I could care less about your sex life. What I do care about is you wasting your time being something that VERY few women want.
But hey, feel free to ignore my advice.
I don’t think all is lost just because Tim hasn’t heard back on his sticky note invite. Calling Tim – a man she doesn’t know – is awkward, not to mention no fun at all.
A man who can express himself is a huge turn-on (and you don’t have to be charismatic to do this). There are some women who will challenge you and will not give in until you do so.
Also, early-20′s and she might be put-off by 39. 24 and above and she just as easily might be into it. There are plenty of advantages to being an older man.
” I will say that among the 21-24 year old women I know, none is looking for a man near 40.”
Doesn’t matter what these women say or even consciously believe they are looking for. When confronted by the prospect of a man with Game, the gina tingles and that’s all that matters.
I’m not sure there is a way to make 100% certain she will be comfortable with your approaching. Making somebody mildly uncomfortable does not mean you are an irremediable creep; it is valuable feedback to stop whatever you are doing (kind of like physical pain). Here are some things that I consider really important when someone approaches me for a date:
If she seems stressed out, distracted, or preoccupied with work tasks, do not ask her at that time.
Give her a way out. This means both physically–make sure she is not physically cornered–and socially–it’s a lot easier to gracefully turn down an invitation for coffee on Tuesday than it is to gracefully turn down an open-ended request for a date.
If she says no, just say something short and polite (like “no worries” or “oh well; figured it couldn’t hurt to ask”) and back out quickly. Don’t keep asking, obviously. But also, don’t explain to her what a nice guy you are and how you didn’t mean to make her uncomfortable; that just puts the burden on her to make you feel better about yourself.
ZOMG yes! I should have thought to mention this.
This guy needs to realize that he is going to make mistakes on his date with this girl, but he should use it as a learning experience. He needs to start talking to more women he doesn’t know when he is in public until he overcomes much of his approach anxiety.
The most dangerous trait that Tim is exhibiting is his one-itis obsession with this particular woman. It’s hard to perform good game with this albatross on your back. Good Game is about appearing to have more value than she. If you believe that she’s The One (a deeply irrational belief, but no less powerful for that), then you’ll be undermining all of your useful behaviors from the inside. One-itis is inner-game corruption.
You find yourself thinking about her all the time? Stop putting yourself in a position where you CAN just sit and think about her. Being home alone in the evenings is bad inner-game strategy. You’re going to pine and masturbate, neither of which is good for your long-term state. Go OUT. Go meet interesting people (men and women) so that the new people you meet start to occupy your mind more and more.
Tim,
You should start with basic social interactions. Learn to talk to anyone, even old ladies whom hold no interest for you. Then move on to studying basic body language. Women give many indicators of interest, and if you seem like an interesting or attractive man, then you can pick up on literally hundreds of these in a single day if you live in a big city. Even in the suburbs, you may get dozens in a single day. The thing about those indicators is that you don’t really need any clever line to start talking to the girl, she’ll be happy if you just say “Hey, what are you reading?”
The next step is to study Roissy, but be prepared for major changes in your outlook on women. The red pill is a bitter pill indeed, and the things you desire from women now may seem worthless to you after you swallow that pill. You will never be the same, but you will be better.
I wouldn’t worry about the age thing too much, it’s only a mental and societal roadblock. Some of my early twenties coworker girls at the day camp absolutely swoon for the dads, often 40 or older, who have charisma and charm. These girls are all attractive, by the way.
The fact that some of them actually end up banging these dads is testament to the fact that, in most circumstances, Game trumps all.
@Tim,
The internet guru’s on dating and relationships may have you disregard a woman’s advice on woman, but here at HUS, Susan says what she means and means what she says. We all yurn to have one-itis for the one who is for us, that feeling is natural, but destructive for the one who is not. Humans, unlike the majority of other animals, were designed to be monogomous, but not monogomous in a destructive or counter-productive relationship. The majority(as we mature) choose to have fulfilling unions between two, that is why we find short-term relationships unsatisfying (especially for woman). The same chemical processes occur in the beginning of both short-term that progress into long-term relationships. The bonding process facilitates this development. Should this investment yield a losing proposition, we find ourselves experiencing heart-break, not relief.
Your self-evaluation, and your position, may be a blessing disguised as frustration. What you see as a deficientcy is actually a new beginning.
You could have easily been through a succession of failed realtionships and in turn, write in about your bitterness and discouragement about giving up on relationships entirely. You may have discounted not progressing when opportunities arose because you have the insight to see trouble before it starts. This is not negative thinking, this is wise decision-making.
Despite your age, you are in a better situation than those who have been misfortuned to have dissolved their marriage leading to financial distress and a breakdown in the family unit where the children ultimately lose the most.
I commend you because you still have this opportunity, where so many others have lost. You are not missing out, the grass is not greener on the otherside. This is a revelation for you to make it right, so don’t lose sight of what will become the most important aspect of your life.
Relationships, especially the marriage kind, is the only situation where too much experience will yield negative results. The more you marry, the more likely you will divorce!
Cheers!
@The Private Man
I don’t know how I missed Succeed Socially until now, but I am so glad you suggested it. What a terrific site. I also just love that Chris writes and maintains it for the sole purpose of helping people. He has Adsense, but that’s peanuts. He’s a good man.
Me too. I am super impressed with Tim’s responses – he’s a lot more socially adept than I feared at first. He’s obviously got some polishing and tweaking to do, some real work to overcome shyness, but I see a whole lot of potential there.
OK Anon and Workshy Joe. It’s a little early to be dissuading Tim from marriage. I’m pro marriage between two people of good character who honor their promises. My husband tells me frequently how fortunate he feels for our life together and our children. To each his own.
Good call. The most you should ever give a pissed woman who is shit testing you or otherwise making demands is “Sorry you got mad.”
Hey Esau, could you get any more cynical? Geez, this young woman is teaching kids to swim, may be the loveliest person ever. Just because Tim has one-itis doesn’t mean he’s wrong about her, just that he’s projecting. Unless you would like to claim that there are zero women of good character, your comment makes no sense.
@Tim
I like VD’s strategy. If I were Kat, I would welcome such an approach from a man I was attracted to, and would even think it was cute. As VD said, the attraction is binary, so I think your success will depend on where that switch is set already.
I hear what Rojo is saying, and I don’t think you should give this more than one final try. But I think it will give you a sense of accomplishment to follow through, even if you wind up getting rejected. The rejection will suck, but it will be a major step forward in your own journey.
True. I think some women might not act on that, especially in this age of texting. I know plenty of women in their early 20s who almost never speak on the phone. They feel awkward about it. She may well have said, “If he likes me, he’ll come back around.”
And he will!
I agree. Why worry about the age difference? She already knows how she feels about it, now Tim will find out. If he gets turned down for that reason, he’ll probably target women 25+ in future. Buy you can never tell when attraction will strike – and Game is indeed powerful.
Private man,
Thanks for the tip on http://www.succeedsocially.com. Good stuff here.
Runningman–
When you ask her out in person, don’t apologize for having been a coward earlier. That’s weak and beta. She may not have crystallized in her mind that that’s how you were acting earlier. Make no reference to earlier slip ups. Don’t say you feel the two of you would get along. That smacks of pedestalizing her.
“You seem like a fun, nice, feminine girl. Let’s get to know each other a little better. Lets do a drink or two at xxx’s day, hour.”
@Runningman
You’ve got a real mix here of guys learning Game, and guys who have mastered it. All of it is helpful, and I am very appreciative of the generous feedback from HUS readers. Those who are giving you very specific feedback and suggestions are very successful and dominant with women – you won’t go wrong following their lead.
Hey runningman. From what you write i think you will learn quick. With a few past
relationships and more ons experience than the average guy and what else you say
about yourself and the attitude you have your foundation sounds very good. Also the
knowledge you are now getting is usefull for attracting women that you will progress
twenty times faster than a man trying to improve in this area without that
knowledge.
I have a ton of advice for you. Doing all of it would take too much time for most people but there should be something usefull in there you could resonate with and pursue as part of your self improvement project.
Some good resources to read: Check out charismaarts.com and buy Jugglers book. it is
a very good and nice method of getting women. It also has the added benefit of
teaching you very good social and concersational skills that are aplicable in all
your social interactions. Read the material of the man that cals himself
60yearschallenge, especially the antimanifesto. It is the most insightfull thing I
have read about attraction. You can also read everything at the website thesedeucers
nad get coaching on the phone or in person by them or a charismaarts coach. I also
highly recomend way of the superior man by David Deida. His other books are also
great. They are superb in describing male female dynamics. Especially how to work
with them in LTR and how to deal with emotions, closeness and intimacy wihtout
comming across as beta. I highly recomend Susan read some of his work as well. He
has an anyingly flowery new age language though but if you look past that what he
writes is golden. Also check out the blog marriedmansexlife and Atol Kays book. He
writes very well on working wiht both alpha and beta traits in LTRs in a way that is
accessible to the average guy. For sexual stuff I recomend Daniel Rose and David
Shade. They will provide you with the tools to turn women on mentally during sex in
ways no conventional book about sex comes close to. I think it could be a good idea
to learn some canned openers just to learn how to easily start a conversation. Also,
I`d advice you to think twice about online game. I have never used it myself but
From reading about it there are advice about opener messages and profile writing
circulating in the pua community that get you massive results quick. htey also have
good advice on how to transform an initial positive reply to your message into a
date in just a couple of message exchanges. So when yu have found your formula you
can quickly rack up a ton of dates in a short time. Learning to approach in real
life is better though and should be done as well.
For an entirely different but even beter approach to sex read what I have written in
this thread about karezza:
http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/fs?action=9&boardid=2&read=108513&fid=105&FirstTopic=60&LastTopic=89
To work on you approach anxiety and self confidence the tools you can find in the
cognitive therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) and mindfulness based
cognitive therapy traditions are the most effective and
and most solidly documented conventional tools.
If you want to do some deep work on your inner game there are four things I recomend
in addition to working on your thinking patterns. One is wegithlifting. In addition
to macing you look more attractive and masculine it raises your testosterone levels
a lot. This in turn makes you more socially dominant and alpha, more driven and
willing to take risks and more sexual and women respond to this. It is a near
universal finding amongst PUAs that this helps a LOT. Start doing a martial art.
Doing a martial art also increases your testosterone. It makes you very confident,
able to handle anxiety and pressure, able to handle pain without fear, able to
compete and give all you got in a though situation, the confidence in knowing you
can protect yourself against others etc. In essence it makes you strong and
masculine. There is a a very noticable strong alpha vibe in most men who have
practiced a martial art for some time. The third thing I recomend is dancing. Women
love men who can dance and you can get women into bed in record speed with
dancefloor game if you know how. It also develops your overal ability to be sensual
and sexual and teaches you to move and use your body in ways that are highly
transferable to sex. It is reat for learning to project a sexual vibe. Another
benefit of dancing is that it teaches you to get out of your head and into the body.
This is the key to social and sexual intelligence. It is by reading our own
emotional and sexual responses in the body that we learn how to read others.
Somewhere in your body you KNOW what the behavior of others means subconciously,
most people just are to in thier heads to feel it precisely enough and to learn to
trust these feelings. For example I used to be oblivous to women wh showed me sexual
interest. I felt something and sort of suspected it sometimes but I was so stuck in
my head the respons I had to the womens body language and vibe was so weak and
distant for me and I only trusted what went on in my head so I was mostly confused.
Once I learnt to have awareness in my body from learning to move with precision and
feeling I started to feel my bodies reaction to my environment clearly. Now
experience have showed me that if I feel clearly in my body that a women is open to
me talking to her am ALWAYS right. If she sends out a closed body language to me I
feel it if she sends out and open body language to me I feel it. If I feel two women
dancing in a bar is both very much looking for a man to bring home TODAY I am always
right. That is because I feel their geenral openess towards men in general. My body
always responds adequately to subconcious clues from other people so after learning
to feel and trust this gives me an unusally acurate ability to read other people.
This is extremely valuable because I then can see a bunch of good oportunities most
guys can`t see. Also when you get this body awareness you start to often know how to
reply instantly to what a woman says or does. Because you feel what is going on it
is also easy to feel what to do. The mating game is written down in your genes you
just have to tune into it.
The fourth thing I recomend is meditation, qigong, tai chi or yoga. Brain scans show that very advnaced meditators have a level of activity in the areas assoicated with good feelings that are far, far, far beyond what has been measured in any other people. The centers associated with negative feelings show similarily low levels of activity. People who meditate for eight weeks rate their happiness levesl as twenty points higher on a 0-100 point scale which is similar to the drop in happiness from going througha divroce. This increase is confirmed by incresed activity in the centers of the brain associated with happiness when comparing brain scans from before starting to meditate with after having meditated for eight weeks. In other words meditation is the ultimate inner game tool. It is vastly more powerfull than all the other tools combined.
Qigong is in many ways similar to yoga but in many ways are more effective in influencing your psyche and energy levels. It also has a much vider toolbox of practices aimed at any goal you can think of almost. You need to increase your confidence then there are qigong movements for that. You need to get your sex drive up there are tools for that, you need to temporarily switch it of entirely there are tools for that, you need to increase your ability to take punches without getting knocked out there are tools for that etc. etc.
I have had contact with many dozens of people online that through meditation combined with qigong has fairly quickly transformed their psyche in such ways that they have become much more attractive to women. Non reactiveness is easy when you are entirely content on your own. Approaching is easy when you are no longer a fearfull person etc.
Specific tools that I would recomend to beging with are the basic excercises from springforestqigong, six helaing, sounds, inner smile and standing meditation (zhan Zhuang). Doing the springforest excersises for 15-20 minutes a day will in a short time give you a taste of how good these exercises are. If you do them every day for two weeks you are very likely to start feeling the effects. THe six healign soudns and inner smile lets you work effectively with all emotions so you can reduce negative feelings such as worry, anger, sadness and increase psotive ones such as confidence, courage, love, drive etc. Standing meditation in addition to helping you still the mind produces a ton of active energy not unlike when you do a lot of physical exercise. The key benefit in terms of attraction though is that it cultivates what I like to cll the yin aspect of the alpha male which I belive is serotonin (at least in part). Most people are aware that testosterone levels are very hugh in alpha males. If you look at the effects of testosterone is largely helps you do the right things to fight for getting power or defending it if the power you have is threatened. If you look at the effects of serotonin it seems more connected to the contentment you feel by being in power/having an a high position in a social hierarchy. Alpha monkeys have the highest serotonin levels and omegas have the lowest. When a monkey advances in the hirarchy hsi serotonin goes up and when he looses status it goes down. However, artificially injecting a monkey with serotonin will make him advance in the social hierarchy to a level that matches his serotonin levels. Scientists believe this is because it leads to the behavior that is typically exhibited by those with high status and displaying this behavior makes others respond to you as if yu had it and so you advance. This is the essence of what game is. Testosterone seems more connected to the aggressive drive needed to advance or defend and so can be considered the yang aspect of the alpha male.
When I observe alphas I see two kinds. THere is to more high energy, aggressive, blatantly dominating alpha, often physically large and musuclar. Then there is the more calm, less talkative alpha that seems to have more authority. My guess is that the first group are high in testosterone and the second high in serotonin. Many people though seem to display a lot of both qualities and ideally you should have both. My feeling is that it is the high serotonin levels that subcommunicates the highest value and hihgest level of dominance. Most PUAs agree that true alphas talk slower for example because they expect people will listen to what they say because of their status, they also agree that the most powerfull behavior is calm and displaying deep contentedness. THis is the behavoir typically displayed by men securely placed in the most powerfull postition when they think they are secure in that position. The more aggressive high energy testosterone state seems more connected with being in a high status but still secondary position. If you look at mafia members I am pretty sure they are all high testosterone but when you look at mafia bosses they generally tend to display behavior much more connected to serotonin. Compared to the lower status agressive muscular guys doing the dirty work the often not very muscular bosses probably have lower testosterone but their serotnin levels are through the roof.
I might be totaly off on the sicence theory but regardless standing meditation amongst its many benefits give me this feeling of grounded powerfull contentedness that makes me behave as if I was this type of calm alpha. From teh reports of other meditators the effects of standing meditation or other excercises that work with the same energies have strong effects on the amount of attraction they get from women.
If you both do standing meditation and lift weights you should be golden.
It is a finding amongst many puas that either not masturbating at all or at least
mimimizing it as much as possible and not doing it to porn increases their success a
lot. To me it feels like abstaining builds up my sexual energy and women pick up on
it. It also makes me more social, confident and gives me a glow that I don`t have if
I am jerking of a lot. It also gives you more incentive to work on bedding women
when you don`t have an easy outlet anymore. Try to go at least one preferably two
weeks without yourself to test it out.
So about 5-10% of the female population of the US is good enough for marriage. Tim should be wary of marriage.
So about 5-10% of the female population of the US is good enough for marriage. Tim should be wary of marriage.
And according to your expert opinion, what % of the male population in the US is good enough for marriage?
“Hey Esau, could you get any more cynical? …. Unless you would like to claim that there are zero women of good character,”
Susan, I don’t quite understand here; how exactly do you think I’m impugning the woman’s character?
Unless .. can it be? … that (i) you believe that a woman who passes up an essentially pretty good guy for what are essentially superficial reasons, and then (this is my fictional invention) complains that “there are no good men” around, is guilty of hypocrisy, and (ii) you further believe that hypocrisy shows bad character? Congratulations! you’ve come a long way, baby.
Now, before you reflexively come back with “Yes, some women are hypocrites and some are not”, which is so non-quantitative as to have effectively no meaning, try to provide actual MBA quantitative answers to two questions: [1] Of single, straight American women in the 20′s (ie similar to the young lady in the story), what percentage do you think subscribe to the belief that “There are no good single men in the world”, ie they are either heard to say this often or nod their heads in agreement when someone else says it? and [2] Of those who do so subscribe, what percentage have objectively, undeniably passed up on an actual good single man within the preceding few months?
My answers, which should surprise no one, would be about 80% for both questions, meaning that I believe that something like 65% of single, straight American women in their 20′s are basically hypocrites — not universal, but pretty wide spread. If you want to defend the case that single American women are _not_ largely hypocrites on this subject, then please provide your own estimates and we can get the argument on firm footing (ie no more “some”).
Wudang, tl;dr
I find the better I understand people the more they amuse me. I try not to be so emotionally invested in them that I care particularly how they act. That said, I’m not an emotional person so that’s pretty easy. I like Kipling’s If as a standard for manhood.
Jason´s last [type] ..Chesterton on catchphrases
@runningman
I owe you an apology. I thought you were one of the over 30 male virgins. The so called “mens rights” movement is filled with agents of the elite promoting gender war for the purposes of depopulation. I have it on good authority that over 30 virgin males are the primary group recruited by the elite for that purpose.
Clearly, you are not a part of that, and I see that now. I misinterpreted your email, and I’m sorry.
@Susan
With more info about runningman, I see that he’s nothing like Mr. White & Nerdy. I owed him an apology, and I made that apology.
With that said, the so called “mens rights” movement was manufactured by the elite just as feminism was. Gloria Steinem worked for the CIA, and there are agents of the elite in the mens rights movement too. Both sides of the gender war are funded by the elite just as the funded both sides of various wars in history. Virgin males over 30 make excellent recruiting targets for the elite especially the angrier ones. Mr. White & Nerdy is a good example, but he is not the only one. It’s a safe bet Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech also works for the elite because he is deeply embedded in the military-industrial-security state complex. He was an over 30 virgin. Supposedly he isn’t anymore, but it doesn’t matter if he is or isn’t a virgin now.
There are others working for the elite that aren’t virgins over 30. It’s clear that The Fifth Horseman works for the elite. The elite is now obsessed with transhumanism, and The Fifth Horseman promotes a “mens rights transhumanism” which is technological gender war.
I suspect others in the mens rights movement of working for the elite but these are the only three I am certain about.
@SusanWalsh:
“To which extreme sect of the internet do you refer? The one you inhabit? I’ve been under the impression that you are a Game blog hag, having been personally acquainted with Vincent I, and now a regular at Riv’s. Your objection doesn’t compute.”
I would hardly say I’m “personally acquainted” with VI, and if by those standards, I’m “personally acquainted” with him, then I’m “personally acquainted” with various female bloggers. I’m also curious as to what prompted this assumption.
Nevermind, I remember him saying that I know what he looks like in the comments section of your blog a full year ago. Wow. On a list of 1-10 how envious did it make you? Why else would you even care to mention it? It must have had an impact on you if you remember it after all this time. Do you get tingles when you talk to him? If I’m, of all people, a game blog hag, what does that make you? Take a look in the mirror before you project your insecurities onto me.
And it’s a shame. I’m almost certain I stumbled upon this blog a few times in high school, before it became polluted with game nonsense, and tl;dr things trashing women and praising men’s maltreatment of women. If you actually want to help women in my demographic you’d probably do better to not insult them so frequently. Remember, “damn braces, bless relaxes.”
Hi everyone. I’ve been lurking here for a long time. This is a wonderful blog with extremely knowledgeable and helpful commenters, and now I’m going to use this help.
I’m a mid twenties male who’s significantly above average in terms of conventional success. I’m also tall, fit, apparently good looking, and have a number of impressive skills. But my social skills are very poor. I’m struggling not only with women but with all aspects of social life. It is now Friday night, and, as usual, I am at home because I have no close friends and very few non-professional acquaintances. I’m very shy, introverted, and have difficulty having coherent conversation with anyone I don’t know extremely well. I start worrying, my mind goes blank and my sentences get mixed up. I edited this message for a long, long time before it conveyed the precise meaning I wanted. I’m also weird in a negative way.
I want to “work” on this problem, but unlike fitness, where there is a long but simple sequence of concrete steps leading to the goal, it’s unclear how to proceed.
I didn’t want to post this message because real men shouldn’t complain. However, my fear of never overcoming this problem together with the sounds of my neighbors’ party compelled me to write this post. (BTW I greatly admire the older men here who attempt and successfully improve their social and dating lives.) I’d like to ask “what to do” and “how to change”. But in reality I just want attention, which is a bad form of temporary relief and an obviously bad idea.
Ah… just noticed the succeedsocially link. Perhaps it’ll help.
When you ask her out in person, don’t apologize for having been a coward earlier. That’s weak and beta.
No, it is not. It is Game Aspie behavior to think that all apologies are intrinsically weak and beta. It is not weak to admit the completely obvious, indeed, it is weak to avoid doing so. It appears you have not yet learned that Roissy’s maxims are guidelines, not laws that are to be applied blindly in all circumstances by every man.
If she was turned off by his earlier weakness, he has to confront the issue and lay it to bed. Confronting it directly in such a manner will reassure her that he has a core strength under the superficial weakness. Pretending the elephant in the room does not exist does not send a message of strength, but one of fear.
God streuth. Susan is absolutely fawning over women, she gives them routine blowjobs just about every other post (she’s one of those Manhattanites who buys into all that junk about super dynamic, funny, beautiful and independent young women). Her only justification for any of her opinions is in how it might benefit women and their mental health — she has little to zero concern for how men fare (as most women are wont to do). I have no idea what you’d prefer her to be like in your ideal world.
About 70%. The incentives for a man to honor his marriage are greater than for a woman to honor hers. If family and divorce law were more equitable, there wouldn’t be such a disparity.
The irony is that you are making this comment on a post that is specifically written for a man who trusts Susan’s advice. Cognitive dissonance, much?
@stormy
That is indeed the incident. It’s not envy – I just have near-perfect recall. I don’t have a photographic memory, unfortunately, but could tell you if you cared to know what I did, ate and read every day for the past year, for example. Naturally, this drives my loved ones crazy, but they also like to use me as a fact checker.
For the record, I do not get tingles from VI. I feel maternal towards him, and towards most of the guys here. I’m more apt to play matchmaker than flirt.
A Game blogger, I suppose.
I do believe you are the first woman here ever to claim that I insult women. What do you mean by do better? I get few complaints, but you will be happy to know that I give a 100% money-back guarantee if you’re not happy with my advice. And of course, you are welcome, indeed encouraged, to take your business elsewhere!
As for that old William Blake chestnut, this is a blog where people come to debate issues rather intensely. I would describe my approach as “tough love” and I have never been accused of blaming, damning or judging a reader.
@Z
That sounds like intense social anxiety, which is common and often treated very successfully with cognitive behavioral therapy and/or SSRIs. Is it also possible you are on the autism spectrum somewhere? In your shoes, I would both seek outside counsel, and gather as much information as possible online.
Let’s face it, being good-looking will help. You can learn social skills by practicing them, and going outside your comfort zone until you wear down the negative power of the thing you fear (CBT). It is hard work, but in your mid-20s with a lot of success already behind you, you have every reason to pursue your objectives. You may never be the one holding court at a party, but you can certainly learn how to go to the party and enjoy yourself.
@David Jones
That’s a pretty compelling story you’re telling there. W&N and PMAFT have both been very difficult in these comment threads. TFH has also been here, but has never been anything but perfectly civil (though humorless). What is the depopulation agenda? What is its objective?
@Esau
Did I misunderstand you here? The “her” in question is the young swimming teacher. You suggest that she’s a whining hypocrite. I find that extremely cynical, and your assumption indicates that you believe all women behave this way. In fact, she might be at home saying, “Aaarrggh, Tim is cute, why did he avoid me for most of two months, then leave a note asking me out? He is obviously ambivalent, but why?”
We have no evidence that she passed up Tim for any reasons, much less superficial. For the record, her not being attracted to him after knowing him slightly is not superficial. Stating her lack of interest clearly saves him a whole lot of time and heartache, and guys here have stated clearly they prefer this to a trumped up excuse or even a reluctant yes.
How so? When did I ever argue otherwise?
Between 0-10%. That’s a very harsh statement. I would say that up to 50% might say something like, “I never meet any good men!” or “All the good guys are taken!”
Haha, you’re right about no surprise, but where do you get your numbers?
In any case, you took aim at Kat, the woman in the story, and even if your numbers are correct, it isn’t fair to condemn Kat as one of your 65% without knowing a single thing about her.
I’m a mid twenties male who’s significantly above average in terms of conventional success. I’m also tall, fit, apparently good looking, and have a number of impressive skills. But my social skills are very poor. I’m struggling not only with women but with all aspects of social life. It is now Friday night, and, as usual, I am at home because I have no close friends and very few non-professional acquaintances. I’m very shy, introverted, and have difficulty having coherent conversation with anyone I don’t know extremely well. I start worrying, my mind goes blank and my sentences get mixed up. I edited this message for a long, long time before it conveyed the precise meaning I wanted. I’m also weird in a negative way.
I want to “work” on this problem, but unlike fitness, where there is a long but simple sequence of concrete steps leading to the goal, it’s unclear how to proceed.
.
@Z
.
Reading this, you are me in my early to mid-twenties. First, e-mail me. Susan has my e-mail. I would be glad to help you where I can.
.
Recognize that you HAVE ALOT going for you…tall, fit, good-looking. Odds are good you’ve probably already gotten interest from women but are too oblivious to recognize them.
.
Although there is NOT a simple sequence of concrete steps like getting fit (building muscle and losing bodyfat) there are at least general concepts, and then it is just practice.
.
I said this before but the key is to take small steps. Practice simply holding eye contact and saying hi to a woman that walks by. Once a week go to a bar and just practice striking up a conversation. Pick somewhat average/unattractive women simply to practice without being too nervous/invested in the outcome. I could go on an on and on here. Like I said, if you are interested e-mail me and I can direct you further. In the meantime, start studying and learning the general concepts involved if you haven’t already done so. Check out fastseduction.com and sosuave.net and just start reading.
@Z,
.
One more thought given where you are at in your development. Bars tend to have certain age ranges and certain ones tend to have more of your 30+, 30-35 year old women versus 20-25 year old women. You want to go older. They are better to practice on in the beginning. You don’t need as tight game with them, and they will be more open to nothing more than the fact that a mid-20s, tall, fit guy is interested in talking to them. Again, this is about taking a reasonable progression. You can’t learn to integrate in calculus if you can’t even do algebra or worse basic arithmetic.
@stormy
Do you know the difference between disagreeing with certain choices some women make and insulting them? Susan only tells the truth and allows for a space were women can hear what men really think and no what they want to imagine their think or what society tells them they should be thinking.
I know politically correct usually means tell pretty lies, but the opposite is not insulting but telling like it is. All the info here is open to women and men to decide if they should ask Susan or not advice about their love/sex lives or not, so, if you don’t like it all you have to do is no read it. There are many feminists sites that will tell you all the pretty lies you want to hear and they always welcome a new drone, FYI.
I suspect others in the mens rights movement of working for the elite but these are the only three I am certain about.
.
I’ve heard the Illuminati and Freemasons are involved as well and maybe even the Elders of Zion.
I know politically correct usually means tell pretty lies, but the opposite is not insulting but telling like it is. All the info here is open to women and men to decide if they should ask Susan or not advice about their love/sex lives or not, so, if you don’t like it all you have to do is no read it. There are many feminists sites that will tell you all the pretty lies you want to hear and they always welcome a new drone, FYI.
.
+1,000,000
Just curious, how much of your clear-thinking do you attribute strictly to yourself as an individual versus having been raised in a different culture/country? I’m wondering how much our (American) culture plays a role.
I’ve heard the Illuminati and Freemasons are involved as well and maybe even the Elders of Zion.
Pfft you are so naive is the lizard people that lives on the center of the Earth, Is so obvious
Wudang,
Good stuff there. I’m thinking about checking out the meditation.
Pfft you are so naive is the lizard people that lives on the center of the Earth, Is so obvious
.
Lizard people? Shit, I thought it might be the orcs living in the Middle Kingdom.
Just curious, how much of your clear-thinking do you attribute strictly to yourself as an individual versus having been raised in a different culture/country? I’m wondering how much our (American) culture plays a role.
Good question. I frankly have to admit that it might be me.There are a lot of milestones that I remember being a mix of good genes (all my family from my mother’s side is brilliant), curiosity, education and observation and some other things I have no idea where they came from.
I must say that the real meaning of politically correct was something that I learned on the news. A few years ago there was a governor (I think in New Jersey) that say that among Latin people men cheating was a real problem, but Dominican men were the worst of them all. The guy got all the press and Latin groups attacking him for that, given that I could swear on my soul that he was totally right (heck my slutty friends were proud of this being truth, because for them the only men that don’t cheat, are gay) that is when I realized that politically correct means you can’t tell ugly truths just pretty, pretty lies.
@Susan
The depopulation agenda is about reducing the human population of the world. The elite are convinced that a smaller population can be more easily controlled so they have set out to reduce the population to a number smaller than it is now. That number has been guessed to be 500 million (because of the Georgia Guidestones) or 1.2 billion or something else but the exact number isn’t relevant. What is relevant is that population reduction is happening right now.
Lots of people think the elite are going to use death camps or a plague for depopulation. That may be but with patience they can use another way by making it so we have less children and making our food supply unhealthy. Hawaiian Libertarian has done a lot of research on this and he said, “DOT – Depopulation: Corrupt the food and water supplies and propagate myths, misinformation and lies about proper human nutrition to promote degenerative diseases, early death and the creation of industries dedicated solely to profiting off of the death and misery. Promote birth control, abortion, and changing the social paradigm of marriage and family formation in young adulthood into an extended adolescence of partying, avoiding responsibility and engaging in promiscuity; all things that are now the primary features of young adulthood and the “college experience.”
DOT – Destroy the Foundation of Society: Attack the institution of the traditional nuclear family, based on the construct of Patriarchy. Use the vehicle of “social justice” to promote Feminism to kick the Father out of the home and create single mother households dependent on the nanny-welfare state, easily manipulated and controlled. Promote social chaos by throwing an entire generation into social upheaval. Subvert the family through the creation of an unconstitutional Family Court system built with the sole purpose of offering incentives and subsidies for mothers and wives to become active participants in destroying their own families, enslaving men through peonage, psychologically scarring their own children and providing an endless grist of lucrative profits for the mill of the State and all of the various components of the Divorce Industry.”
Feminism comes into play for destroying families and making sure children that would have been born aren’t. Feminism didn’t just happen. It was directed by the elite. Gloria Steinem worked for the CIA and one of the Rockefellers admitted to Aaron Russo that they started Feminism because they couldn’t tax women and get children in school earlier so that those kids could be indoctrinated.” This is why so much media tells women to be sluts. If women are slutting it up and are indocrinated to hate men because of the elite’s manufactured gender war, then they aren’t having good relationships and forming families. Then they have fewer or no children reducing the population.
The so called “mens rights” movement come into this because it’s the “mirror image of feminism” for men. It’s the male side of the elite’s manufactured gender war. If there’s one thing the “mens rights” males agree on its not getting married. That means less children. Within “mens rights” the MGTOW movement is even more extreme. They promote ghosting for men which involves avoiding women entirely. The more MGTOWs, the less children.
As Gloria Steinem and others worked for the elite in feminism, there are agents of the elite in the “mens rights” movement. Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech is deeply embedded in the military-industrial-security state complex. He has admitted this on his blog. That sounds like how Gloria Steinem worked for the CIA. He is acting under orders from his elite masters to grow the “mens rights” movement and promote gender war.
If you want to promote gender war from the male side, who would be the best group to recruit? Angry male virgins who can’t get together with women. Those males are already predisposed to work for the elite’s manufactured gender war. This is where overgrown boys like White & Nerdy come in. (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech may have also been recruited this way. Being in the military-industrial-security state complex he probably knows more of the elite’s plans.) I know of other examples of this. A friend of mine has a brother similar to White & Nerdy. A year ago my friend’s brother started acting and talking like a “mens rights” hard liner that would be at home at the spearhead. My friend’s brother also suddenly got a lot more money at around the same time, and my friend can’t explain how that happened.
The elite are also very interested in transhumanism so that’s how I know The Fifth Horseman is involved. He might not be difficult here but each of the agents has a different job so his doesn’t involve being as hard line as White & Nerdy and Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech.
The reason why White & Nerdy and Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech have been so hard line is because a blog like yours, Susan, that promotes good relationships between men and women is a threat to the elite’s plans. The “mens rights” movement is still small so your blog can have a real effect, Susan.
Notice I did not talk about lizard people, Illuminati, Freemasons, Bohemian Grove, the occult despite the jokes of a few people here. Such things are distractions to what is really going on. Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech makes jokes like that all the time to distract from what he is really doing. Such fantasy is not a part of anything that I said.
Getting way OT here, but regarding the “depopulation agenda”, frankly, I think it borders on the absurd, that there is some organized conspiracy of “elites” wanting to depopulate the world from billions to 500 million. To what end? At the end of the day, the elite control the wealth anyways so they can buy up whatever resources are needed. In any criminal investigation, you ask where is the motive? I see no motive here.
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That said, frankly, depopulation is probably a good thing. We are near the brink of what really can be supported resource wise on planet Earth absent a quantum leap in technological innovation regarding energy, water, food production. The growth in population the last 100-200 years is probably the biggest “bubble” in human history:
http://humblestudentofthemarkets.blogspot.com/2011/06/where-is-next-bubble-going-to-be.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rxM86pUuxVg/TeeRB_KzBBI/AAAAAAAABRE/Va7qFhDvKGE/s1600/world-population-growth.png
Most people are utterly clueless how much modern society depends on cheap energy, particularly oil, how dependent modern economies are on oil, and just how pressing the peak oil problem is. The world has to make a jump to new technology and soon…otherwise the transition period has the potential to be brutal. This blog covers the issues in detail:
http://gregor.us/
The U.S. is blessed with ample rich farmland, and plenty of water. Many countries are f’ed and some of them have very fast growing populations. I hope I am wrong, but I expect serious food and water issues over the next 5-20 years in certain countries.
Getting way OT here, but regarding the “depopulation agenda”, frankly, I think it borders on the absurd, that there is some organized conspiracy of “elites” wanting to depopulate the world from billions to 500 million. To what end? At the end of the day, the elite control the wealth anyways so they can buy up whatever resources are needed. In any criminal investigation, you ask where is the motive? I see no motive here.
I think another reason this theory is far fetched is that I would believe more the other way around. Powerful people needs cheap easy to control masses, the way the economy is organized is that people retires from being productive after 65 and the new working generation works to support the system including elderly care, in the old world the aging regions are already having issues with the lack of young people to continue the cycle of labor. If anything the elite should be trying to eliminate old people so they don’t become a burden for the shrinking young population they need to keep the system going. Is not a good plan to age humanity if you plan to control it, IMO. The elite needs better mad scientist.
Tim/running man
Hi again.
If you have loads of one night stands I’m surprised you are so hesitant with this girl.
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I mean you have been able to chat with girls in the past?
Is the lack of alcohol or disco music the issue?
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And has she called back?
Susan,
As you know I thought your advice to tim fine.
But you do rather heap praise on the zen like ‘ game masters’ guys that come here.
Is it possible, that some of the might be either pulling your leg or just plain fibbing?
Some of the stuff just seems so extreme and harsh.
I mean one guy recently said go and chat to ugly girls to build up confidence!
I think I know what he meant but the whole vibe is kinda….well… Does it not make you a tiny bit uncomfortable?
Steph,
Hi. I wanted to say I wouldn’t go along with your point about ‘what men really think’.
I have shown these posts to friends, colleagues and aquantances and they are generally appalled at some of the attitudes here. The male posters here may not be a tiny minority I grant you that but of the uk and USA males I know or know of, it’s not the norm. I will say that, there is a notable exception to that which was when I use dot work in social support and protection roles where I met guys with extreme views, only slightly more extreme than some I have read here. But these were criminals, offenders who are NOT the average guy. I would anyone to think otherwise.
Hi. I wanted to say I wouldn’t go along with your point about ‘what men really think’
Again Jess you need to remember that your friends are not going to say anything that might reflect bad on them. If you check Athol’s page many men don’t agree with many things that society impose (like allowing their wives to go on Girl’s night out to use a recent example) and are trying to find ways out of this.
What motivation could have a group of men to lie on anonymous internet blog? Who you think has more to lose guys here or your friends?
Also criminals are people with no social investment and nothing to lose they can speak frankly, the consequences of a man saying anything remotely sexist are higher outside and in first world countries, so obviously they won’t tell you, specially you that are woman. Look at how feminists demand the resign of any man that dares to say anything they don’t like. Your friends might be doing this quietly. I’m pretty sure no commenter here, not even Abbot are wearing a T-Shirts to work that says “American women are sluts and I will never marry one. Is very likely that they will say the same your friends say if asked.
Steph,
I totally get what you are saying and perhaps some people have said ‘what I wanted to hear’. But the guys I have spoken with, both stright and gay, are pretty frank and more than happy to argue with me on many an issue. Certainly perfectly prepared to upset me by disagreeing with me. On occasion they have succeeded! Guys can be pretty gross and seem to delight in offending it seems to me. But on this kinda thing, they seem to regard it as ridiculous. You know, the whole evil slut thing. I have to say the guys are probably more dismissive than the girls about the guy blog comments. Basically they think those guys are religious nuts or have underused nuts.
re: depopulation agenda….lol ….and you called ME daffy!….as far as the oil barons and arms merchants are concerned we are all cannon fodder, the more the merrier
Basically they think those guys are religious nuts or have underused nuts.
Well are the straight gays married? Of the ones married how many of them knew their partner’s sex past? How many rather didn’t? How many had been cheated on.
Men really don’t think this standard even exist till they start to actually look for a wife.
steph, i’ve been thinking about a conversation from a while ago where you championed the flexibility of females, generally, maybe genetically….it doesn’t fly for me…in my experience women are the backbone of conservativity,(if that’s a word), and comfortable routine…..part of the reason my marriage died is coz my ex just HAD to get up early every morning, build a fire, make hot water and bathe the girls in a bucket….took 3 hours, every fucking day and she simply could not be convinced to lounge in bed with me and my testosterone, EVER….that ain’t flexible
steph, i’ve been thinking about a conversation from a while ago where you championed the flexibility of females, generally, maybe genetically….it doesn’t fly for me…in my experience women are the backbone of conservativity,(if that’s a word), and comfortable routine…..part of the reason my marriage died is coz my ex just HAD to get up early every morning, build a fire, make hot water and bathe the girls in a bucket….took 3 hours, every fucking day and she simply could not be convinced to lounge in bed with me and my testosterone, EVER….that ain’t flexible
Well you need to remember that things vary among people also in her case maybe she didn’t saw a reason good enough to let go of her routine, but when women do find a reason or feel like it they will change. It could had been a shit test as well, maybe she wanted to communicate something my not pleasing you. Women are crazy like that.
It’s already been mentioned a few times in the comments ahead of mine, but I wanted to tell you again to google Athol Kay, read every entry on his blog, AND buy his book (e-book or book format) you will NOT be sorry
@Susan
Thanks for your reply. I didn’t want to pursue therapy due to the stigma I attached to it, but having “publicly” admitted my problem I have no reason not to try CBT with a therapist. And it’s undeniable that I might be on the autistic spectrum.
@Mike C
Thank you for your reply and your tips, I appreciate it. I’ve asked for your email. About the small steps, they are the only ones that can be taken, and slow long term change is the only kind of attainable success, which I’d be happy with. Although your specific suggestions are challenging, especially ones that involve going to bars, I will try to follow them next week.
Not all women love beta males, just the rich, successful ones.
I do hope we see more emphasis on this from the feminist movement.
Well you need to remember that things vary among people also in her case maybe she didn’t saw a reason good enough to let go of her routine, but when women do find a reason or feel like it they will change. It could had been a shit test as well, maybe she wanted to communicate something my not pleasing you. Women are crazy like that………………………………….cierto…it really is a basic puzzler to men…..is it a gender thing or just a people thing?……why is it so difficult to just say what you think/want/need to someone you love?
@Jess
It really doesn’t. In the example you give I just see common sense. For example, say you’re a guy with pretty intense approach anxiety. You’re 24, it’s been this way since you were in high school, and you really, really want to get past it and have a social life, date, etc. What do you do? You start taking baby steps, as Mike C says. You chat more with strangers, of both sexes. The grandma at the supermarket gets a hello and nod with eye contact. The young barista who hands you your coffee gets a big smile. You get more comfortable by having repeated interactions and you conquer your fear. So you go out with some friends, and your goal is to meet one woman during the night.
You’re at a sports bar and you see three women – one is gorgeous, she’s laughing merrily, tossing her long blonde hair around and talking with three guys who seem like jocks. The second one is pretty attractive, she’s there with a girlfriend. They’re chatting, she’s texting on her phone a lot. You consider saying something, but it feels awkward, and if she shoots your down you know you’ll feel like shit. The third woman is really not very pretty. She has a decent body, but she’s really not your type, and frankly, you know you are better looking than she is. She’s looking around a lot, seems kind of at loose ends. You figure there’s a decent shot she’ll respond positively if you talk to her.
What are your odds?
Approaching the Golden Girl: 0% chance of success
Approaching the Cute Girl: 50%
Approaching Butter Face: 75%
Remember, you’re trying to have a benign social interaction, not seduce someone back in your lair. Who do you chat with? Can you make someone’s night better and meet your goal for the evening? What’s wrong with that?
@Jess
Wow, comparing men here to sociopaths because they don’t want to marry a slut is just wacked.
By your own account, sexuality in the UK sounds downright debauched, and marriage as an institution is on life support. I hope the U.S. is not headed for the same decline. All societies who follow that path are doomed.
@Z
Just so you know, when it comes to therapy I’ve walked the walk. I’m a big believer, have done it myself. My son spent two years in college working with a CBT therapist to overcome shyness, with very good results. He would get an assignment each week and report back. In the beginning, all of the assignments were about observing others to see what the characteristics of successful social interaction are. Gradually, he was encouraged to initiate with others.
I’m in the northeast where there is literally no stigma. I have seen it help people enormously. To be clear, I’m not suggesting psychoanalysis here – I’m talking about concrete “how to” coaching to help you learn and practice skills. Just so you know, the difficulties you’re facing are extremely common – you are far from alone. There are many resources available to you, and a therapist can help with that too. Look for someone who specializes in social anxiety – start with Google search for your area, I think it should be easy.
@Susan,
Oh wow. Thanks for sharing your experience with CBT. Now that I believe in its effectiveness, I am definitely going to try it with a specialist. Thank you again.
I’d agree that this gentleman could probably benefit from therapy, and CBT would be my recommendation as well.
But I’d advise him refrain from any further pursuit of the young woman, because of the risk that this may pose to his employment. At this point, it’s likely that he is coming off as a little creepy. He should also be concerned that other women who are now aware of his interest in a younger woman may report him. Older women tend not to like it when men their age pursue young women.
As for the age difference, lots of young women find older guys attractive and may even entertain a relationship. The difficulty is in sustaining that, which is why these relationships tend not to result in marriage.
“My son spent two years in college working with a CBT therapist to overcome shyness, with very good results. He would get an assignment each week and report back. In the beginning, all of the assignments were about observing others to see what the characteristics of successful social interaction are. Gradually, he was encouraged to initiate with others.”
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Amazing how we end up synergizing topics…I’m stewing on a post about “passive game,” where guys don’t change their behavior but simply work hard to observe others’ signals.
Badger´s last [type] ..Ladder Theory For Men
susan re ugly girls
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yeah i get your % thing- i assumed thats what he meant, but i dunno,
would you be happy to know that the guy who took up a few hours of your time on a saturday night was simply practising a few lines on the ugly girl?
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in my country they call it leading someone on?
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sometimes my friends used to chat up guys they didnt fancy to kill time or get free drinks. i always thought it was crappy conduct.
susan re criminals
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come on now- you know full well i wasnt comparing guys in the way you suggest. i was merely saying that some of the more extreme statements made by SOME of the guys here were the same things i heard a few years back from the mouths of some major offenders. Nothing more, nothing less.
steph,
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the guys covered the whole spectrum really but also if you recall the vast majority of my ‘experienced’ female friends never had problems getting married to lovely guys. They are all pretty open about their past so it couldnt have been too major an issue.
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perhaps we have different experiences due to different cultures?
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mike c made a point a while back that whilst ‘numbers’ might be part of the equation for many guys, it runs secondary to other factors perhaps.
Wow, comparing men here to sociopaths because they don’t want to marry a slut is just wacked.
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Yes, it is! There was some other pretty wacked out shit as well in those comments such as pure ad hominem.
Of course, she circles back with this:
come on now- you know full well i wasnt comparing guys in the way you suggest.
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Which is total bullshit, because if she wasn’t comparing guys in that way, or trying to imply the connection, THAN SHE WOULDN’T HAVE MADE THE STATEMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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Honestly, I really find this whole tactic of trying to equate guy with certain beliefs to rapists, abusers, whatever basically despicable. This isn’t a one-off type of comment, but a message that gets repeated.
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Does this type of commentary really add any value whatsoever to the discussion?
It really doesn’t. In the example you give I just see common sense. For example, say you’re a guy with pretty intense approach anxiety. You’re 24, it’s been this way since you were in high school, and you really, really want to get past it and have a social life, date, etc. What do you do? You start taking baby steps, as Mike C says.
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Exactly! Your description is exactly what I was getting at. I think most/all? women simply cannot comprehend the magnitude of approach anxiety most men have and how paralyzing it can be. If you are shy, you can’t just start approaching 8-10s without coming across as a blithering idiot because you’ll be stumbling all over your words. You might be worse off for the interaction, because if the girl is a total bitch, she might further destroy what confidence and self-esteem you have. So you have to start with women whose attractiveness is low enough to not intimidate the hell out of you. The whole “leading on” criticism is red herring bullshit. You aren’t implying marriage to someone you’ve been seeing for a year while planning to dump her. You are having a pleasant interaction with a stranger and see where it goes.
why is it so difficult to just say what you think/want/need to someone you love?
Women are emotional creatures in general terms, and we usually have to predict the needs or our beloveds, we want the same on a lover. Telling a guy everytime you need something kills a bit of that “he knows me” fantasy so many women just start to harbor negative feelings about their loved ones by getting pissed off because they are no women. Of course this depending on the culture can be worst. Most Latin women just bitch about this while their mothers (good mothers) tell them that this is normal and they shouldn’t take it so personal , western women seems like the cheat and divorce confronted with the same realities of marriage.
For all the “women shouldn’t expect prince charming” at least back in the day Prince Charming all needed to do was have enough money, be charming and marry you: Happily ever after didn’t had any description so women have to work with whatever they got after the marriage.
Feminist fairytale of Puppet-Sex-Toy-”Equal” Partner does has a never ending list of things a man has to do after he enters the relationship with a free to cheat or leave card if he dares no to fulfilled completely and at the time she needs to. I think men had it better with Prince Charming, frankly.
Approaching the Golden Girl: 0% chance of success
Heh why is that everytime we women imagine a hottie is always blond?
the guys covered the whole spectrum really but also if you recall the vast majority of my ‘experienced’ female friends never had problems getting married to lovely guys. They are all pretty open about their past so it couldnt have been too major an issue.
How many of your “experienced” friends are still married? and how many cheated on during the marriage?
perhaps we have different experiences due to different cultures?
Except that I’m the only latin here aside from Yohami, the other male commenters aside from “Tom” agree with me. So I doubt is cultural only.
Ehh I can actually see Jess’ point. It’s one thing to talk to a woman you aren’t attracted to just to relieve some of your social anxiety, it’s another to ask her for her number just for practice and never actually take her out. The latter part is unethical and leading her on; if you aren’t interested, by all means have a pleasant conversation, but don’t ask her out if that’s not the direction you want to go in.
Ah, you beat me to it.
“Launched in November, 2008, Hooking Up Smart brings together my passion and concern for young women with a professional, practical and systematic problem-solving approach.”
2011
Poster
“I mean one guy recently said go and chat to ugly girls to build up confidence! I think I know what he meant but the whole vibe is kinda….well… Does it not make you a tiny bit uncomfortable?”
Susan Walsh
“It really doesn’t”
“Approaching Butter Face“
Wow…I’m really just shocked how many commenters want to really twist what is nothing more than a confidence building/practice exercise.
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I’m about at the point to call total f’ing bullshit on all of it.
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Look, guys have to approach. Most women wouldn’t approach a guy if your life depended on it.
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At the same time, if a guy approaches you and he is literally shaking from nervousness, bumbling and stumbling and stuttering you are going to disqualify him right off the bat due to his “lack of confidence” and “creepiness”.
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There is only one way to get over approach anxiety and that is practice, and you have to practice on woman that don’t intimidate you, and that means less attractive women. It is that simple.
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A guy like Z is the guy all you women say you want, yet if he approaches and is totally ineffective he is going to get blown out. Maybe 1 woman in 1000 is going to see his anxiety as endearing. Many will see Loser.
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Really, the pushback, indicates to me that possible many women have ZERO emphathy for the male perspective here. I think Susan has a very balanced perspective because she is a mother to both a son and a daughter, and it sounds like her son maybe struggled a bit with this issue so she has first-hand experience what it is like to be a guy with social/approach anxiety.
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I’m not advocating playing with the emotions of less attractive women, but the bottom line is you got to start somewhere. It is possible to have a pleasant interaction that leaves both better off, and you could even go on a date, have a good time that both enjoy and not pursue things much further beyond that. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that AT ALL. Guys are most successful when they are indifferent to the outcome, and any student of Game knows women respond better to a sort of disinterested aloofness than a nervous overeager puppydog.
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A guy with anxiety issues is going to have major problems with his frame approaching and pursuing women he finds very attractive until he breaks down some of that anxiety.
I agree, but Strawman Queen is arguing a point that no one here is asserting. Mike didn’t say practice on ugly/fat/old girls you’re not attracted to, pretending to be attracted, ask them for a phone number or date and then leave them high and dry. He said practice talking to them. It is possible to talk to people of the opposite sex in a fun, social way, heck, even flirty, without leading them on. Women flirt with men they don’t find attractive, why not the other way around? Fair’s fair.
@ Mike C:
I think we’re just going to have to agree that we’re biased on this issue due to our gender differences. You’re going to sympathize with the guy who has anxiety issues when it comes to approaching women. I’m going to sympathize with the unattractive girl who finally receives male attention, goes on what she thinks was a great date, and never hears back from him afterwards. (Pobrecita.
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@ OTC:
And I’ve already said I had no problem with that ( by all means have a pleasant conversation).
You have a point in that I could be projecting here. I don’t flirt with men unless I’m seriously attracted.
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