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Have We Had Enough Feminism Yet?

From Marginal Revolution, The Great (Male) Stagnation, with two sobering graphics:

 

WHY? Economists can’t explain it, it’s still a matter of conjecture. Alex Tabarrok’s thoughts:

  • The big difference between female and males as far as jobs, of course, has been labor force participation rates, increasing strongly for the former and decreasing somewhat for the latter. Most of the female change, however, was over by the mid to late 1980s, and the (structural) male change has been gradual.
  • Female education levels have increased dramatically and male levels have been relatively flat.
  • Females are also more predominant in services and males in manufacturing: plumbers, car mechanics, carpenters, construction workers,  electricians,  and firefighters, for example are still 95%+ male.
Why should you care? Because you want to marry a man who earns at least as much as you do, if not more. Who reads the same books, enjoys the same movies and craves the same foods. Lifestyle and interests reflect disposable income and education. If you can’t find that, you’re much, much less likely to marry.

The “Great Male Stagnation” is an enormous threat to our way of life. Relationships and marriage will suffer if we do not remedy it. No society can thrive if its men fail. Obviously.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • GudEnuf

    Because you want to marry a man who earns at least as much as you do, if not more.

    This is exactly the attitude feminists are trying to fix.

    Like I’ve said before, if a woman wants to be a high earner, she should find a beta male who will support her in the role. The same way high earning men have SAHM’s do make their jobs easier.

  • VI

    Add in the fact that males are treated as second class citizens from birth to death. All of these special outreach programs, none of them target males. We always here how more females are needed in X, Y and Z. Males are the reason X, Y and Z even exist.

  • GudEnuf

    The graph is misleading if you look at it too fast. The median male income is still higher than the median female income. The graph looks like it says women are earning more, but what it’s actually saying is that the ratio Women2010 to Women1947 is higher than Male2010 to Male 1947.

    In other words, female income is rising faster than male income, which is to be expected since women are playing catch up. Men still earn more though.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Gud Enuf
    A high earning woman, e.g. law partner, will only happily marry a lower earner if he’s her intellectual equal, e.g., a history professor at Georgetown (I know this couple). Yes, Tina Fey’s husband takes care of the kids, but he’s a mover and shaker himself. She didn’t marry a guy who never went to college.

    We’ll see more and more women “settling” but I think many of those marriages will go belly up. Humans prefer to mate with people of similar “qualifications.”

    Feminism is trying to “fix” that which is immutable.

    Women are not just “catching up.” Economists, academics, and even policy makers are alarmed by the male stagnation. I’ve even heard the hand-wringing on NPR. (One lefty said we should encourage men to become home health aides, nursing home workers, elementary school teachers, etc. As if women are not celebrating not being limited to those choices anymore.)

    Women are surpassing men. Denying this is willful ignorance.

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    Thank you for addressing this issue Susan.

    You’re doing what Kay Hymowitz failed to do – dig deeper.

    I have a sneaky suspicion that guys will respond warmly to this post and that the female commentariat will just stick their fingers in their ears and say “la la la!”

    I am a man of very modest means and its no co-incidence that my two serious relationships have both been with women whose means were even more modest than my own.

    Why?

    Because those women would consider going out with me long-term and other women just wouldn’t. Hypergamy isn’t going away.

    For the career girls who ask “where are all the single guys?” I’ll tell you:

    1. They are dating attractive women with lower socio-economic status than yourself.

    2. They are stacking the shelves at Walmart or making your latte in Starbucks.

    3. They are unemployed (thank you Central Bankers – you suck!)

  • NickyG

    I live comfortably paycheck to paycheck. That’s why I’ll probably never get married.

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    GudEnuf wrote:

    In other words, female income is rising faster than male income, which is to be expected since women are playing catch up. Men still earn more though.

    Men AT THE TOP are still earning more.

  • Seymore

    Women are surpassing men. Denying this is willful ignorance.

    That’s the intent. Women have such significant advantages granted to them in employment, education, and social policy generally that their predominance is all but guaranteed. It’s surprising that men aren’t further behind. If work force participation and work hours were equivalent, the divide would probably be quite dramatic.

    I’m a big fan of women, but I do worry that we’ve set up a self driving dynamic between the interests of women and the state. That is, government privileges women and women endorse the ambitions of government. So in any competition between males and females, there is a tendency for women to seek government intermediation knowing that this will benefit their interests.

  • SayWhaat

    @ VI:

    All of these special outreach programs, none of them target males.

    Actually, college admissions are admitting less-qualified male applicants over more-qualified female applicants because male applicants are rarer and therefore more valued: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html

  • GudEnuf

    Workshy Joe:

    Men AT THE TOP are still earning more.

    Do you know what “median” means?

  • bsg

    adjust income to income/hours worked and the gap closes significantly

    additionally, these numbers are from all ages. women from ages 18-30 are making more money than men at the same age range.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Very interesting. I would like to see that data explained, which professions, which numbers, which genders, etc.

    And how much of that number goes to alimony / child support

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    subscribed

  • Clarence

    GudEnuf didn’t apparently even read her own link.
    And the median wage will always depend on the dataset used to calculate it.

    Once again: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/03/us-workplace-women-idUSN0334472920070803

    There are a heck of a lot of women living in, or near, large US cities (In the US , “large city” is often defined as 100 thousand or above with Metropolis or “Major” city status being obtained at either 500 thousand or 1 million depending).

    Now I might say that hypergamy is a bit misunderstood as well: it doesn’t always have to do with earning more or having a higher status job, but those certainly help. And to the extent that women prefer more successful partners for marriage or ltr’s this is (as the inner cities show) and will be a problem for the larger society.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Clarence

      GudEnuf didn’t apparently even read her own link.

      GudEnuf is our resident male feminist. He’s a very good sport.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I’d not seen these stats before Susan, thanks so much for posting. Women in the 20′s – 30′s now out-earn their male contemporaries & the education gap has been widening for decades, as was recently reported:

    http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2011/05/education-gap.html

  • http://www.singlewm.com Chad Daring

    Im curious what effect the at-home coddling of girls has on this as well. Very rarely do I meet or date a girl who is working her way through school, yet I know (and was one of) many young men who go to school full time and work full time. Most of the girls in their early 20s that I’ve dated all had their schooling paid for by parents, and even the men that I do know who’s parents are paying for their schooling are still required to work full time as part of the deal.

    I’ve known a lot of guys who dropped out of higher education because it became to much for them, where females are having schooling handed to them more readily.

    Shit jobs will always have to be done, the big issue seems to be the guy changing your oil “needs to step up” while the girl serving your coffee is patted on the back for “being a working woman”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chad Daring

      Im curious what effect the at-home coddling of girls has on this as well.

      Our society has been coddling girls for a full generation. The whole “Reviving Ophelia” movement sought to redress perceived inequalities between girls and boys in school, so they threw all the ballast to the other side of the boat, and whooops a bunch of boys fell out. Girl Power is so robust the girls themselves can’t even handle it. We now have the “sex as empowerment” scheme, girl on girl bullying like never before, every girl born after 1985 believing that she is a “unique and special person destined for great things.”

  • http://www.singlewm.com Chad Daring

    Do you know what “median” means?

    Do you realize how bullshit “median” is when talking about how much people are getting paid?

    One million dollar a year executive (Bill Gates) can swing the average heavily. Take one bill gates and 19 $8/hr McDonalds employees and you’d get an average of 65k/yr

  • bsg

    median is not the same thing as average (mean)

    median lines up all data points and pulls out the middle point

    so take a mcdonald’s employee at $8/hour, his manager for $16/hour and bill gates, and the median would be the manager.

    but again, the numbers are simply aggregate incomes. they do not account for number of hours worked. more men work full time and overtime than women, and that accounts for more than half of the supposed income gap.

  • boru

    “Do you realize how bullshit “median” is when talking about how much people are getting paid?

    One million dollar a year executive (Bill Gates) can swing the average heavily. Take one bill gates and 19 $8/hr McDonalds employees and you’d get an average of 65k/yr”

    So you don’t know what median means.

  • http://gameforomegas.wordpress.com Omega Man

    As Workshy Joe says *men at the top* still make more. This is a trend of the lower and middle classes; the people with power aren’t affected very much, so nothing will change.

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    GudEnuf wrote:

    Do you know what “median” means?

    Yes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median

    But you still insist on sloppy ambiguous phrasing such as “men earn more”?

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    I’m still waiting for a female commenter to say something like this:

    “Yes. You’re right Susan. That’s true. Professional women and working-class men will have a hard time finding suitable long term partners and current demographic trends are making this worse all the time.”

    I think I might have to wait a while for that to happen ;-)

  • Höllenhund

    If you can’t find that, you’re much, much less likely to marry.

    Maybe I’m just too malicious, Ms. Walsh, but the vibe I’m often getting from nominally anti-feminist, quasi-conservative women like yourself is

    “due to feminist policies, society no longer trains young men to be dutiful, well-earning providers + protectors, so we should do something to remedy this because otherwise we won’t get the the boyfriends and husbands we want and deserve”

    instead of

    “we should help men thrive in our society because they are our fellow human beings whom we care about, who deserve respect, fairness and opportunities just like everybody else”.

    It seems to me your concerns are entirely…self-serving. You only care about the condition of men at all because you want to encourage them to effectively fulfill the roles you want from them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund
      Yes, you are too malicious. Please give that some more thought. And I’d appreciate your losing the shaming language: nominally, quasi, etc.

      Here’s what you need to understand: I am in the persuasion business. I am selling a vision. What Would Jesus Do? is not an effective sales strategy. I hope that I regularly represent the principle that all human beings deserve respect, fairness and opportunities. However, none of those things come to us magically. Respect must be earned. Fairness is often lacking throughout society, and we are required to stand up and shout when we see injustice – even then we will differ in terms of what we believe is fair. Opportunities are a function of timing, luck, hard work and natural talent.

      I am appealing to women with an argument that offers an incentive to overturn feminism – to vote against it, to deny funding to it, to say bad things about it at dinner parties. “Be good” will not catch the ear of my audience. They’ve most of them heard it every week from ministers, priests and rabbis.

      Appealing to other concerns strikes me as more likely to provoke real thought.

      1. Personal fulfillment – if you don’t care about what’s happening to men, there won’t be any for you to marry. This is analagous to – if you don’t care about the planet, it won’t be here for your descendants. If you don’t fund breast cancer research, you will regret it when you are the 1 in 7 who gets it. Etc.

      2. Society’s welfare – This includes the economy, the institution of marriage, the family. All are at risk if our men do not thrive. I’ve implied that society might even collapse if we continue on this same path.

      For the record, I also tell women that if they slut it up they won’t find men to marry. My goal is to promote understanding between the sexes, in hopes of bridging the gap between your precious male 80% and the corresponding female 80%. Yeah, yeah, I know. You’ve told me many times I’m pissing in the wind. I guess I’ll keep at it until the wind shifts and sends the piss right back into my face.

  • http://aaronsholymountain.wordpress.com Aaron
  • Anonymous

    Oh no… this article really hits home. I am a 26 year old recently admitted lawyer and although getting guys is actually pretty easy, finding quality ones that will stick around is unbearably difficult lately. Guys get weird when they find out…most are very surprised.
    It seems that guys are either a mismatch (ie not intellectually stimulating for me) or assholes who aren’t looking for a relationship. And I am not looking for a lawyer or doctor! I’n fact, the past two guys i dated worked in entry level sales (earning about 50k) and I was willing to make it work but each one became too intimidated and insecure to make things work.

    I tell you all this because I am reading your insight and it is right on the money,
    But what is the solution? What is someone like me to do?

  • Höllenhund

    One of my fellow commenters explained why nothing will be done to remedy this situation:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/05/23/kay%E2%80%99s-man-child-revisited/#comment-92075

  • Anonymous

    This is not a “male stagnation” (streuth). It’s an artificial pedestalizing of women, whose contributions to the economy are largely perfunctory and by no means justify their exorbitant salaries (hence why they flee to the public sector where no market pressures exist to bring them back down to Earth). I’ve witnessed this first hand (the entire managerial staff and every single teacher at a primary school my friend janitors for is female; they also happen to be handsomely remunerated and massively incompetent).

    It is not possible to “lift” all men into well-paid service jobs to the same degree women stand. Someone has to do the actual work of transporting, loading, programming and cleaning at the end of the day. If women refuse to marry down, that’s really their problem: to further water down the education system, to shift more cash into the fire (from where?) will do nothing other than drive us head forward into a crisis of inflation. The problem is not that men need more “education”, it’s that women need markedly less.

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    Anonymous lady@11.49 am wrote:

    I am not looking for a lawyer or doctor! I’n fact, the past two guys i dated worked in entry level sales (earning about 50k) and I was willing to make it work but each one became too intimidated and insecure to make things work.

    I tell you all this because I am reading your insight and it is right on the money,
    But what is the solution? What is someone like me to do?

    The first thing you can do is to realise that heterosexual men really don’t care about your level of career achievement.

    No man is “intimidated” by your career. It just doesn’t mean anything to them.

  • Anonymous

    I should add that this problem with managerialism has worsened with the degradation of the liberal arts program. The cheap, bland and nigh-useless pablum being passed out like candy at “colleges” across the country has both eclipsed the hard sciences for which college was originally intended and divorced itself from its original purpose: as a class marker, usually taken by WASP elites who were expected to compete internationally as diplomats and literates.

    What is it that college is even training for these days? If women are so triumphant on campus, where are all the women scientists and engineers? If they’re being educated in something else (and God only knows what), how are they making a return on that education? Are they writing history books, making a go at ancient linguistics?

  • Höllenhund

    What is someone like me to do?

    Have you ever considered moving to China? It has an enormous surplus of high-earning, dutiful, hardcore beta males just dying to find a reliable wife.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Have you ever considered moving to China? It has an enormous surplus of high-earning, dutiful, hardcore beta males just dying to find a reliable wife.

      An American 26 yo female lawyer and a Chinese farmer with no education and no English. Now there’s a brilliant suggestion!

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster
  • Ty

    I was willing to make it work but each one became too intimidated and insecure to make things work.

    No offense, but it’s probably you. No one wants to be in a relationship with someone who views them as inferior. And you don’t do a very good job of hiding your disappointment.

    Men aren’t typically intimidated by women, regardless of their income. This is a common rationalization, that you’ll notice comes almost exclusively from women trying to explain their lack of success with men, and to fluff themselves in the bargain.

  • Jonny

    I am a 26 year old recently admitted lawyer

    This is one major strike against you. Lawyers have too much negatives. I would certainly hope you’re not argumentative and emotional either. A guy doesn’t need to be actually intimidated after coming home from a long day at work. Don’t do the intellectual junk. He will naturally talk about what interests him, but he won’t gravitate to your stimulus, which he will find boring.

    Best advice. Don’t be afraid to suggest you will sacrifice your career if you have children (not that you might actually do it, which will depend upon circumstance). Are you flexible enough to consider it?

  • Anonymous

    I think this is very compelling informaiton, and I don’t think it is entirely that surprising. However, is there anyway to see th breakdown by generation/age cohort? I am curious how much of the declining wages for men are caused by older men who went into manufacturing jobs and no longer have viable skills for today’s economy, vs younger men struggling to get employment…

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    I am curious how much of the declining wages for men are caused by older men who went into manufacturing jobs and no longer have viable skills for today’s economy, vs younger men struggling to get employment…

    Both.

  • Vagabond

    Ah…the plight of king midas. Everything he did turned to gold, but alas there was no happiness.

    The problem is not that women earn more – but rather so many of them spend their life in the rat race chasing “everything”, instead of introspecting and asking themselves what is it that they want, what is it that makes them happy. It would save them a lot of wasted effort, and lack of regret for choices they make.

    I’ve chosen to live a life of voluntary simplicity, and follow my bliss. So many women I meet want to live a joyful contented lifestyle like mine, but somehow choose to compromise their happiness for materialistic pleasures that really don’t enrich their lives in any way. I’m all for working women, if that is truly their passion – but it seems like they have been systematically brainwashed to seek high paying jobs.

  • Aldonza

    Our economy is still changing rapidly. It continues to move away from manufacturing and towards services. Just looking at the industries poised to explode in the next decade, nursing, assisted care and home health services are all in the top 10. Do those industries favor men? Other industries include software development. Go geeks!

    It used to be that men would get a trade, work on a farm, or otherwise become a laborer. A small percentage would get professional credentials, such as doctor, lawyer, engineer. Today, GI Bill, student loans, and other financial aid means college is within the reach of most people…which brings down the premium previously paid for “college-educated labor”. Union jobs still pay pretty well and almost exclusively favor men. In fact, most of the traditionally male jobs left are largely union. But anti-union sentiments have eroded much of their bargaining power…and therefore lowered salaries. Perhaps the answer is a more pro-labor agenda? Or maybe it’s an overall cultural shift that we all have to face about gender roles, employment and worth?

    I do know that the answer probably isn’t in pointing a finger at the feminists and whining about how they ruined the party.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I do know that the answer probably isn’t in pointing a finger at the feminists and whining about how they ruined the party.

      Well then, you must be pleased I didn’t do that.

      Perhaps the answer is a more pro-labor agenda?

      No thanks. The teacher’s union is largely responsible for destroying standards in American education.

      Or maybe it’s an overall cultural shift that we all have to face about gender roles, employment and worth?

      Indeed it is. We need to face the fact that the Women’s Movement produced gender equity a long time ago. It has fulfilled all of Betty Friedan’s dreams. Now it serves primarily to promote a female agenda without regard to balance or fairness in society. Because so few feminist activists reproduce, they do not have the perspective that comes from parenting a son, or in many cases even living with a man. I see no empathy for men among feminists.

      As time passes, modern feminists and the Women’s Movement become more and more estranged. The infighting among feminist factions continues. The sexual promiscuity agenda is losing steam. Tried and true sluts are attempting to reinvent themselves. New ones take their place, marching through the streets of cities all over the U.S., but their numbers are small and they elicit little sympathy from the population.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    An economy based on services is a bad idea btw

  • Aldonza

    @Workshy Joe

    No man is “intimidated” by your career. It just doesn’t mean anything to them.

    It should. Having a good-earning partner is a safety net almost required by our chaotic economic times. NYTimes: More Men are Marrying Wealthier Women

  • Aldonza

    @Yohami

    An economy based on services is a bad idea btw

    What would you base it on?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    products, then services

  • Rhen

    Anon 26-year-old lawyer & Workshy Joe:

    Actually, many people ARE intimidated by lawyers, who is our society are viewed as threat/authority figures, kind of like cops would be if cops were free agents rather than state employees.

  • Jonny

    The U.S. can still go back to manufacturing if we stop exporting them through bad free trade policies. U.S. monetary policy and trade deficits are inflationary, but they will help manufacturing compete against the world. At least we should offer tax breaks and lower corporate tax rates to manufacturing companies. Reduce regulations and stop the global warming nonsense.

  • OhioStater

    Hey Susan. It’s not irritating women want to marry higher income men. It’s annoying women don’t think they’re behaving this way. It’s also annoying that women don’t acknowledge the consequences or accept responsibility for changing this state of affairs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OhioStater

      It’s annoying women don’t think they’re behaving this way. It’s also annoying that women don’t acknowledge the consequences or accept responsibility for changing this state of affairs.

      Women don’t know. Hell, even economists are just noticing, and they can’t explain it. This data was put together by one guy recently. One reason I wrote this post is to heighten awareness, among both women and men.

  • OhioStater

    Hi Aldonza. It doesn’t matter to me if my wife makes more. The issue is women won’t accept a partner that makes less. A woman only feels genuine attraction if the man “chose” her, but a low-income man can’t choose a high income woman.

  • Aldonza

    The U.S. can still go back to manufacturing if we stop exporting them through bad free trade policies.

    That’s a pretty simplistic view of how to impact the trade deficit. That might’ve worked more effectively when the global economy was in it’s nascence, but economies are too intertwined now to just shut off the money pipeline.

  • Aldonza

    @OhioStater

    Hi Aldonza. It doesn’t matter to me if my wife makes more. The issue is women won’t accept a partner that makes less. A woman only feels genuine attraction if the man “chose” her, but a low-income man can’t choose a high income woman.

    That’s not true. Just ask any PUA who is unemployed, sofa-surfs with friends, and still scores majorly. In fact, it’s one of the Game tenets that attraction has nothing to do with how much you make.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In fact, it’s one of the Game tenets that attraction has nothing to do with how much you make.

      That’s only true for “getting beautiful women into bed.” It’s not true for long-term mating, which Game does not concern itself with in its original form.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    a man who makes less sans game = suppressed beta dormat who will either put the girl in a higher pedestal, or will be scared / turned off of even approaching her and will feel “lucky” and “saved” when the girl runs of clock time and needs to settle with someone

    a man who makes less with game = a jerk who contributes nothing to society

    the jerk will get the girl pregnant and the dormat will pay her bills eventually

    nice one.

  • Blogster

    Yohami – just interested, are you an economist? Interested in how you came to your opinion.

  • GudEnuf

    Workshy Joe:

    Go back and read my post. It was pretty clear what I meant by “men earn more”.

    The median male income is still higher than the median female income.

    Men in the middle earn more than women in the middle. That’s what median means.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Actually, many people ARE intimidated by lawyers, who is our society are viewed as threat/authority figures, kind of like cops would be if cops were free agents rather than state employees.

    It seems that there’s a fence between Heaven and Hell, which is cared for in alternate aeons by the two sides. It has fallen into disrepair.

    St. Peter seeks out Lucifer. “Hey Lou, it’s your turn to fix the fence. The Boss says it looks awful. Get it done.”

    “I don’t care how it looks,” says Lucifer. “I’m not doing anything.”

    “You have to,” says St. Peter. “It’s your official obligation. We have a contract to that effect. You’re committed.”

    “I don’t give a fig for any contract,” says Lucifer, “as you should know by now, I don’t care what it says — I’m not going to do anything.”

    “You have to,” insists St. Peter. The law is the law. If you force us to, we’ll have to sue you.”

    “Sue me?” cries Lucifer, breaking into that famous nasty laugh, “Where are YOU gonna get a lawyer? all of them are here in hell!”

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    In case you are wondering, Rivelino got his cover identity busted http://bit.ly/jnubN9

  • Jonny

    That’s a pretty simplistic view of how to impact the trade deficit. That might’ve worked more effectively when the global economy was in it’s nascence, but economies are too intertwined now to just shut off the money pipeline.

    A simplistic rebuttal. Nice. I’m not talking about shutting down trade. I’m talking about doing more manufacturing at home. Shutting down trade will bring about another depression, but that seems to be happening regardless. We should be manufacturing more goods that we use at home, which including using our natural resources like oil and coal, etc.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    It seems to me your concerns are entirely…self-serving. You only care about the condition of men at all because you want to encourage them to effectively fulfill the roles you want from them.

    I think you are missing the point. You cannot fight feminism with “be nice to men because is a nice thing to do” without concrete outcomes the hamsters are free to run in circles as the speed of light. That is how feminism won so much acceptance “if you reject your femininity you will have money and sex like men do” Had you even been to war with only arguments? Or you bring weapons to get a clear goal? Same principle.

    One of my fellow commenters explained why nothing will be done to remedy this situation:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/05/23/kay%E2%80%99s-man-child-revisited/#comment-92075

    I clicked on the link thinking it will be more BS. But he is totally right. I agree 100% but what Susan is doing is trying to show the glimpse of the future so things don’t need 40 years to get women to wake up to this reality. Sadly like a modern Cassandra maybe no one will hear her…I’m hoping some women do. Miracles do happen…sometimes. Of course the resident feminists are pretty much going la la la la so is a fat chance, but there is a phrase I love that says “Whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it’s very important that you do it because nobody else will.”, YMMV.

  • GudEnuf

    Clarence:

    GudEnuf didn’t apparently even read her own link.

    If you just look at the introduction it compares median male earnings to median female earnings. What, did you not read it?

    And the median wage will always depend on the dataset used to calculate it

    Yep, that’s how science works. If the conclusions you draw do not depend on the data you find, you’re doing it wrong.

  • Matt

    You could all do what I plan on doing (if you are young that is). I am 19, a male, highly intelligent, ambitious, tall and good looking to boot.

    My plan is to work my ass off in college, get some internships, have a decent amount of promiscuous sex with good looking, easy to fuck women (thank you American college hook-up scene, thank you) and then move to Germany to pursue a career in engineering for solar energy.

    I get to fuck a high number of attractive women in the U.S. and then enjoy a loyal wife in Germany as I laugh while reading the papers about the U.S.’s stagnation in commerce and deterioration of the family.

    I recently checked Roosh’s blog to see how he rated the German women and I have to say, I am relieved. http://www.rooshv.com/adjusting-a-girls-rating-based-on-her-nationality
    “German. Add 0.5 points. Submissive girls who aim to please and value strong men. This is how American girls should have turned out.”

    You know, I never imagined, planning on finding a way the hell out of the U.S. until I realized that my gender was being marginalized here. For one, hasn’t anyone noticed that engineering (a career area dominated by men) has barely any jobs while insurance (a career area filled with women) is booming?

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    Aldonza wrote:

    That’s not true. Just ask any PUA who is unemployed, sofa-surfs with friends, and still scores majorly. In fact, it’s one of the Game tenets that attraction has nothing to do with how much you make.

    In my single days, I slept with some women who made more money than me, but how many of them would want anything long-term with a man in a lower socio-economic bracket?

    Men who aren’t looking for anything long-term wouldn’t care about that, but guys who would like a steady girlfriend will just find life much easier if they only approach women who aren’t viscerally repelled by their job title.

    I once went out with a girl who had quite a high-powered government job and she just wanted to fix me in the career department. Next!

    The bottom line is that due to hypergamy, women will still want men of higher status (not just good Game or good looks) for anything long term.

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    Here are some suggestions for any women who feel they might be affected by these bleak demographic changes.

    1. If you just want to settle down with a man-of-greater-status and have his babies then please just own up to that.

    2. The only men who actually care about your job title, education or net worth are guys like Clint Webb.

    3. Doctoral dissertations don’t inspire boners.

  • Clarence

    GudEnuf:

    “Science”? Oh my, I’m afraid you really don’t know much about how this figure is calculated. Perhaps you meant “Math” ?

    That’s a clue. I’ll be back later for more. And I urge you to fully read and understand the Wikipedia article.

  • SayWhaat

    but how many of them would want anything long-term with a man in a lower socio-economic bracket?

    Ah, you hit the key here. It’s not a matter of income, but of class. As per Susan’s example of the lawyer + professor couple, women will have no problem marrying a man who pulls in less income than she does, as long as he is her intellectual and/or socioeconomic equal.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    women will have no problem marrying a man who pulls in less income than she does, as long as he is her intellectual and/or socioeconomic equal.

    well, duh?

    and that assuming he makes moolah, and that he is as driven / ambitious as she is or – preferably – more

    which is just a paraphrasing of what the guys are saying about these charts

  • JM

    Miracles do happen…sometimes.

    I wouldn’t count on a miracle on a societal scale. Even Jesus fed only 5,000 at a time.

    (Disclaimer: I am not Christian.)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    every girl born after 1985 believing that she is a “unique and special person destined for great things.

    “destined” as entitled to / deserving of? or “destiny” as the result of hard work and character?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “destined” as entitled to / deserving of? or “destiny” as the result of hard work and character?

      “destined” as something or someone should deliver them on a silver platter because she is just so naturally fabulous. Actually, kidding here. Society tells every young girl this. Parents can and do fight it. I have fought hard to make sure my daughter did not adopt this attitude, and we made her very invested in pleasing us by reflecting our values. I know other parents who have done the same thing. But not enough.

  • Brendan

    I fully expect that we will see this trend continue and that feminists will continue to simply encourage “a shift in gender roles”: i.e., that men become the “new women” –> subordinate, less accomplished and educated, economically dependent, and evaluated on the basis of pleasing the woman, and nothing else. A great future for men, really, but I do think it’s what feminists want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan
      Yes, I’ve heard feminists suggesting that men eagerly sign up for the jobs that they are no longer willing to do. Refusing to acknowledge bio differences helps them deny the reality of what kinds of work men enjoy doing. One woman on NPR suggested that men are needed in preschools. But there’s not a long line of males trying to qualify in early education. And of course, there’s no acknowledgement of the dangerous jobs that women cannot do. Not too many women trying to get into oil rig drilling or mining.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Yohami:

    I’m just making the distinction between a man who has a lower income but is still attractive on the hypergamy scale and a man who has a lower income due to his lower social standing. The previous assertion was that a man who has a lower income won’t be attractive, period, which is not the case.

  • namae nanka

    “For one, hasn’t anyone noticed that engineering (a career area dominated by men) has barely any jobs while insurance (a career area filled with women) is booming?”

    Interesting.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    SayWhaat,

    Maybe its crazy, but in men, self esteem, swagger, confidence and a lot of other attractive traits are linked to the men´s position on the men´s ladder. This means when a man is a loser, feels like a loser and tries even less.

    Men have this “let the best man win”, which also means when you are the loser one, you dont claim a piece of the cake, you let the winners, the alpha dudes take it.

    The exception are the badboys / jerks, the males that for whatever reason, dont feel like playing by a code and want the rewards without putting the effort nor “earning” the prizes. The badboys can display all the attractive traits with nothing to back that behavior = void attractiveness. You can complain about such men all you want and you´ll be right.

    Game = an attempt to teach betas to act and feel beyond their real ladder value. Very anti-nature, if you ask men.

    So, in a society that pushes men down, money wise or labor wise or whatever, all the good men will go down and behave in a way that matches their reality: losers, betadom, depression, not trying, etc. and they will think they are doing the right thing while they are at it.

    So in such society, how do you expect to find low-income men (losers) that display attractive traits and behave like they belong to your class?

    Chances are they will feel you are above of them, and the instinct is to let the women that are out of your reach, go. And when you deal with them, you wont feel any spark: you wont see them as men.

    Then you might meet a bad boy and yada yada.

    This stuff is simple. Men have to come back. The rules have to be fair for everyone, so good men can be men.

  • namae nanka

    “This is exactly the attitude feminists are trying to fix.”

    Ah the fixing. How does that go along with their “it’s about choices for women”?

    “Actually, college admissions are admitting less-qualified male applicants over more-qualified female applicants”

    Have you had a look at how qualification criteria has changed? Or the noise over the STEM issue?

    “What are the consequences of young men discovering that even if they do less, they have more options? ”

    They will have an inkling of how these women feel:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/mar/06/women.discriminationatwork

  • namae nanka

    cmon even a feminist can’t argue that women are that damn good(look at scholarships):

    http://www.academia.org/title-ix-conquers-science/

    considering the fact that they preach(or used to?) the equality of sexes.

  • namae nanka

    anyway the wages thing is kinda old news, vox has many good posts regarding it:

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/11/workforce-and-wages.html

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I though for years that the feminist premise: women are unhappy with traditional gender roles and the world will be a better place for both men and women without them.
    Now 40 years later are feminists happy?
    NO! I had seen war diaries written by men happier than most of the humorless, ranting feminists that have power over media and the law, have.
    Are men happy?
    No it looks like the men that supported the movement were thinking about the promise of getting laid easier without courtship, but they were more than okay with the rest of their “gender roles”, so now that getting laid is even harder and that this easy laid is reserved to a privileged men only plus all the obstacles on their education and perspective of raising higher on their social ranks thanks to feminism things are looking grim for them.
    Is the western world a better place?
    Nope the promise that women needs for better and stronger = hipergamy could be fulfilled by themselves acting like men was empty, women are more likely to be selfish and self serving and break their promise because they didn’t felt like honoring them anymore, again 40 years later the results show that like communism, feminism only brings equality and a better world on paper, hence time for a Feminist Perestroika.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    I’m surprised by these results. After becoming aware of Warren Farrell’s work, I knew there wasn’t widespread discrimination against women with regard to pay. However, my own master’s degree got me no where (Sociology) as it is now a female dominated profession. I’ve only now become successful working in an engineering field.

    Gotta be honest, thanks to Matt’s link, Brazil and Germany are now starting to look real good right now.

  • jess

    Steph,
    Well everyone strives for happiness and satisfaction within their own context.
    If you live in a starving country a mouldy potato is a wonderful gift.
    .
    if you live in a western country we take presents back to the store cos because they have the wrong brand badge on them.
    .
    Are feminists happier than 40 years ago? well of course! Surely nobody would argue women should lose the vote or not be able to stand for election.
    .
    But does that mean there are no issues left to protest or debate about? Hell no!!
    There is plenty.
    .
    Frankly, after reading some post responses here and listening to a few media slip ups recently the feminist movement has plenty on its plate in the western world let alone in the 3rd world.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    But does that mean there are no issues left to protest or debate about? Hell no!!
    There is plenty.

    Sure, there is plenty of stuff to complain and protest against and there will ever be. But what are the PROBLEMS that need solving first?

    Feminism was / is about enabling women as a person? if so it succeeded. Bravo. Its time to really bring equality, it shouldnt be about gender but about people. Feminism keeps the gender wars open, but who are you fighting? what problem are you SOLVING? whos the enemy right now?

  • Rum

    Someone correct me if this is out-of-date but last I checked female students were doing “better” only in relation to the males who had as a group lost proficiency. Girls/women were not performing better than earlier cohorts of their sisters. Consonant with this, look up the history of attempts to improve the performance of boys in ways that could not impair girls progress (like more yard time for boys). The feminist educational gulag masters have labelled these attempts “divisive”.
    This is all, imho, an extreme form of hypergamy in action. By putting up ever harsher filters for the guys, fewer will get thru and become worthy, thus reducing the likelihood that any woman might end up having her womb invaded by the sperm of less worthy men.
    The evidence keeps accumulating that gina tingles are more valued than the survival of civilized life.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Are feminists happier than 40 years ago? well of course! Surely nobody would argue women should lose the vote or not be able to stand for election.

    No one is arguing that here, can you please read before typing. Also all this blogs of women that can vote and stand for election complaining about not having men to marry really don’t show the picture of the happy empowered women that needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

    Frankly, after reading some post responses here and listening to a few media slip ups recently the feminist movement has plenty on its plate in the western world let alone in the 3rd world.

    By your won admission women on the third world are more than capable of being happy without feminism, so you want them to become the type of woman that will return a present if it has the wrong brand on it?
    What will that accomplish if I might know?

  • OffTheCuff

    One woman on NPR suggested that men are needed in preschools. But there’s not a long line of males trying to qualify in early education.

    I think my earliest male teacher was in 4th and 5th grade. Until then, it was 100% female. Which is a shame, since they were excellent teachers. Today, I don’t think you’ll find a single male in an elementary school around here, let alone a preschool. Preschools are outright hostile to fathers, I couldn’t imagine actually trying to *work* there.

    No sane guy would go into early childhood education these days unless he likes being sued.

  • jess

    Steph,
    You are asking me why we should support the promotion of female rights in the 3rd world? Are you joking? Ask the average 3rd world woman and ask if she would like a 1st world standard of living, a vote, protection from spousal abuse and the right to own land, stand for election and an education.
    .
    If she says no, you win, if she says yes please, I hope you would accept that you may be mistaken.
    .
    My point was people can put up with awful injustices and penury if that what they have always been used to. For us to sit here in our air conditioned homes and human rights protections to say “ah, bless their primitive ways- how I envy their simple life” is revolting.
    .
    You wouldnt want their life any more than I would. Somebody had to fight for your right to vote Steph- that person would have been a feminist. I think women of all nations should have the right to vote, free association, all the usual human rights stuff. Privileged peoples like you and i can apply pressure to achieve this.
    .
    And why not- after all somebody did it for you and I?

  • Blues

    Well, feminist groups did take a good chuck from Obama’s stimulus plan that was originally aimed at the troubled construction and manufacturing industries (a mostly male dominated field) and diverted it to unaffected female dominated professions under no better reason than “go feminism!”.

  • jess

    Yohami,
    Its not so much about enemies Yohmai- its about issues and fairness.
    There is some obvious stuff like islamic stoning of women and basic human rights violations of women abroad- but i suspect you are talking about home issues.
    .
    And there are plenty- but rather than me blather on here- why not read through some mainstream feminist blogs. Not the trendy ones that do gossip and sex but the 100′s of others out there. I am not gonna provide links- you can google away just as well as me.
    .
    A couple of issues that spring to mind in the uk are:
    .
    1. Education- many women find peer pressure puts them off maths, physics and engineering. The figures for these a levels in mixed schools are many times lower than all girls schools leading to some suggesting all schools should be single sex. This is of interest to feminists and is own the whole a good natured debate.
    2. SexAssualt- London has had a big rise in serious rape attacks and feminsts beleive the sexualistion of the media and mysogistic attitudes is partially repsonsible. You can imagine how happy we are to learn Playboy is opening again London.
    .
    So yeah, there are issues still ‘live’ even on our own doorstep.

  • namae nanka

    “If she says no, you win, if she says yes please, I hope you would accept that you may be mistaken.”

    but there’s no free lunch.

    http://www.aei.org/article/103674

    “You are asking me why we should support the promotion of female rights in the 3rd world? Are you joking? Ask the average 3rd world woman and ask if she would like a 1st world standard of living, a vote, protection from spousal abuse and the right to own land, stand for election and an education.”

    Women’s rights didn’t get you all those things. White women’s burden sheesh! realize that your men gave that to you. Yes, even the vote, and about a decade or two later than when they got it. You have no reason to play elder sister to 3rd world women than to satisfy your own vanity, and the stupidity and mendacity that you have been fed for all your life.

  • namae nanka

    “There is some obvious stuff like islamic stoning of women”

    and men. You are hopeless.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You are asking me why we should support the promotion of female rights in the 3rd world? Are you joking? Ask the average 3rd world woman and ask if she would like a 1st world standard of living, a vote, protection from spousal abuse and the right to own land, stand for election and an education.

    Jess are you high? I was born and raised on the third world, I’m not privileged whatsoever and no there is not need to fight for those because men are not trying to take those rights away. The standard of living is bad for both males and females of the working class in our countries and good for the males and females of the upper class, like it has been through history. The problem we have with cheating is unrelated to education or income, a man will cheat because society supports his right to be happy sticking his dick in any willing woman and women can sent abusive men to jail.

    You seen to be under the false impression that feminism is the only way women can have constitutional freedoms, and men will want to take those freedoms back for the lolz, did you know that many countries gave the right to vote to women before the USA?
    Also read this list of many women owning property and earning income before any feminist movement. http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/05/25/its-time-to-acknowledge-notable-women-in-american-history/

    Also Jess modern feminism only fight for the right to slut it up, abort and divorce at will with no social consequences, but this not laws.
    What right is there left for a woman to be constitutionally achievable? Really tell me what law exactly forbid a woman to do anything?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    For one, hasn’t anyone noticed that engineering (a career area dominated by men) has barely any jobs while insurance (a career area filled with women) is booming?

    Mmm any links to any article talking about this? This is just personal curiosity not related to this topic.

  • tito

    @Susan

    “The “Great Male Stagnation” is an enormous threat to our way of life. Relationships and marriage will suffer if we do not remedy it. No society can thrive if its men fail. Obviously.”

    Susan, i could propose to you when you’re like this! do you see this folks? civilization comes first, second and third. your petty nonsense lives come 20th. this is why the current way needs to be reconsidered. not “oppression” but civilization. most of you have grown up in comfort and won’t see what’s it like to have it collapse until it happens.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @tito

      Susan, i could propose to you when you’re like this!

      Ha, as opposed to when I am shit testing! I’m afraid you’ll have to take the bad with the good.

  • Nell

    Today’s Maureen Dowd column about famous men cheating is semi-relevant. She seems most angry about and bewildered by men who are “marrying up and dating down”–with “up” and “down” determined by career status in most cases. I’d be interested to hear people here tear apart her theories about why they do it :)

    @ Workshy Joe: I’m not entirely convinced that men don’t care even a little bit about a woman’s career status when thinking about a LTR. What I’ve heard from guys in real life (I’m a college student at a “prestigious” school, so skewed sample) is that you want to go for someone similarly educated who will fit in with your friends and colleagues, etc. My theory is that the mistake women make is thinking of it as something that causes pure attraction (like looks, so more = better) rather than as a compatibility issue (like a shared desire to travel or something). What do you think?

  • Octavia
  • The Real Vince

    Poor men, how do we get by here in the United States, the richest country in the history of the world, a place where even the poor are relatively well off.

    http://www.globalrichlist.com/

    The two major things people have truly legitimate complaints about is a lack of a universal health-care system and (in many districts) a failing education system. Otherwise, boohoo, you “only” make 30 thousand dollars a year.

    Women who want more — more, more, more — are stuck-up narcissists who will never have enough. The pill inexorably changed the dynamics of mating. This talk about how society has gained up against men sounds like a lot of whining.

    A large service sector is a symptom of an advanced economy; a post-industrial economy. Yes, it generally means the rich get richer, but shipping manufacturing jobs overseas also means the world’s poorest get richer. Utilitarianism for the win.

    Guess I need to put things into perspective: whirlwind romances in rich countries versus more people having enough to eat. If global capitalism is inevitable, we might as well cheer its better qualities.

  • Abbot

    feminist movement has plenty on its plate in the western world let alone in the 3rd world.
    .
    For some odd reason, the so-called “movement” in interpreted as a bunch of sign carrying screeching self entitled spoiled brat sluts on whine walks, in the western world and especially in the 3rd world. Nice going. A group of you should go take one of those walks in a 3rd world country. Go ahead. Dare ya

  • Jess

    To nanka,
    .
    Putting aside your hopeless insults and possible trolldom, the sources I have seen suggest that whilst stoning of both sexes exist there are no prizes for guessing which gender gets it the most, and by a large margin.
    .
    Amnesty international have some figures if you are interested.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    During the stonings, do women also throw stones? or just men? – honest question, I have no clue. But I get the feeling the women in such cultures are participant / collaborative / moms raise their girls to be like that and not rebel (fucked up if you ask me)

    Anyway, Im in the third world myself. I wonder whats this about women not owning properties not voting not working? wtf really?

  • Rum

    Re: Land “ownership”. Land must be physically defended to “own” it. Land cannot be hidden or carried around in a purse.
    Giving the chore of land protection solely to the daughter in the olde days = family loses land. End of story.
    In the anglosphere, all women got the vote within just a few years after all men got it. For the past in general, voting rights derived from land ownership which derived from land defense.

  • Jess

    Abbot,
    I don’t think a female protest march on any issue in the 3rd world would do a huge amount of good unless there was a media response elsewhere. In any case in many countries they would be beaten half to death.
    .
    As to the slut walk in the USA- not my cup of tea and in my view not likely to do anything for their cause. I am completely with SW on this one.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Education- many women find peer pressure puts them off maths, physics and engineering.

    Are you sure its not that they suck at it? or that they are not interested? there are very, very few women in many areas that are dominated by men, and when theres a woman everyone treats her like a little princess and has it way easier than the regular male – my experience.

    SexAssualt- London has had a big rise in serious rape attacks and feminsts beleive the sexualistion of the media and mysogistic attitudes is partially repsonsible. You can imagine how happy we are to learn Playboy is opening again London.

    Playboy has no effect on rape, sorry. How much of the increase of the serious rape attacks are due to lowering the standars to whats considered rape? or are you saying there are more criminals = guys that jump on inocent women and rape them because they “hate women” or something?

    Im always curious about this notion that the sexualized woman promotes “rape”
    How about the sexualized man? he´s on the advertising as well.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Our society has been coddling girls for a full generation. The whole “Reviving Ophelia” movement sought to redress perceived inequalities between girls and boys in school, so they threw all the ballast to the other side of the boat, and whooops a bunch of boys fell out. Girl Power is so robust the girls themselves can’t even handle it. We now have the “sex as empowerment” scheme, girl on girl bullying like never before, every girl born after 1985 believing that she is a “unique and special person destined for great things.””
    .
    There’s occasional hand-wringing on this very blog about the dearth of female comments (if not female readers). The debate in fact sounds exactly like the “Reviving Ophelia” argument – that despite equal numbers, rambunctious boys in class shout down girls waiting and raising their hands. Thus the boys make themselves overrepresented in the discussion and must be silenced.
    .
    Camille Paglia (no doubt a shouter) mocked this outlook as ridiculously petty and prim. I noticed this myself in school – as you can imagine from my online writing, I was never one to leave my opinion on the table, and smart girls in school would get resentful of me for driving my points home in class. I didn’t have any sympathy – the world does not have to reorient itself to any particular communication style to keep feelings from being hurt, and it didn’t have to orient itself towards me either, the teachers would have been totally justified toning down the theater-in-the-round discussion style that favored my academic personality. It had limited impact in any case – that I was a dominant voice in classroom discussion helped me in the future in some ways, and hurt me in others.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    In any case in many countries they would be beaten half to death.

    I guess you´re saying islamic countries? or which countries are you talking about were women are less than persons?

  • Jess

    Rum,
    In a country where laws are policed land stealing should be something from 100s of years ago. According to you if a 60 yo man cannot defend his land against a 14 yo intruder he should meekly give up his home.
    .
    In some countries you can only leave land to men and in others women are not allowed to purchase land.
    .
    So the history isn’t the issue- it’s the current laws that are in some countries.
    .
    As regards voting, do you think globally women should be able to vote or not?
    .
    Oh I wonder if Pankhurst would agree with you that the female vote was a given.

  • Octavia

    “Have we had enough feminism yet?”

    To take the question seriously, the response might depend on what each person considers to be feminism. Also, the amount of privilege a person has could affect his/her view of feminism. Perhaps there’s a correlation between someone’s status in society and the impact the forms of feminism would have on him/her if the goals are achieved.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Okay Jess here is an article that shows that most of the “poor third country women that you worry so much” have the right to vote: http://www.wisegeek.com/in-which-countries-are-women-not-allowed-to-vote.htm

    There are six locations around the world where women are not allowed to vote. In two of these nations, no one is allowed to vote, because the country does not currently have an electoral system.

    Here is about owning property:

    For example, if a man dies leaving about Rs. One Hundred and Fifty Thousand, for the children (i.e one son and one daughter) the son inherits One Hundred Thousand rupees and the daughter only Fifty Thousand rupees. Out of the one hundred thousand which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about eighty thousand and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about twenty thousand, left for himself. On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits fifty thousand is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself.

    http://islam-faq.blogspot.com/2009/06/hy-is-womans-share-of-inherited-wealth.html

    I will also advice to talk and join some real Muslim women that I’m sure are around UK, so you stop seeing them as victims that need to be rescued by “white empowered feminists” and you can see that many of them are educated and happy and that agree with many of the precepts their religion preaches.

  • collegeboy

    @Susan

    Thank you so much for paying attention to my comments.

    There is allot of corruption in government, but the influence is coming from the the richest 1% (in the private sector).

    It really feels like nobody cares about even listening to people who are telling us what is wrong, with our government and country (they don’t want to understand about how this will affect them, why should I care, if others don’t care).

    If men protest, it like your un-american and a potential terrorist (CIA is profiling people who protest).

    I really hope feminists and women care about eliminating corruption and putting our country back in the right direction (this isn’t about small or big government this is about good government).

    Because I cannot afford to care, I need to worry about my economic future (I want to get laid, lol).

    I have a degree and I’m preparing for a totally different type of work, that pays well and is completely recession proof, its like starting all over, just for financial security (in fact recessions are good, for business). I already understand where we are headed and I’m preparing for a prosperous future.

    One of the things that I do that is good way to lose friends is joke about benefiting from others misfortune, its dark comedy, because its funny and its ruthless (but not unethical). But allot are making a good living off of other peoples misfortune and they don’t even know it. Where’s my compassion? Where’s yours?

    Bottom line: People pay me to fix their troubles. More troubles = more money. Who’s going to pay me to fix my troubles? Is love free? Is sex free? Is healthcare affordable? Is rent free? How about the plumber?

    If others are individualists, then I have to follow their lead, if I want to survive (and most of all get laid, lol).

    Women and feminists are going to have to fix our country. You don’t need muscle and guns, you need brains. Remember what they said about the holocaust and Anna Frank, good people said nothing.

    Want to know more(Reliable Sources):
    Money Talks: Profits Before Patient Safety (PBS)
    The Corporation (2003)

    Dark Comedy Documentaries (Reliable sources):
    Capitalism: A love story (2009) [Funny as hell, I like Condo Vultures]
    Sicko (2007)
    Bowling for Columbine (2002)
    fahrenheit 911 (2004) [Less relevant today]
    [The citibank plutocracy pdf]

    More extreme (unreliable sources sometimes)
    Alex Jones on youtube – http://www.prisonplanet.com/

    One last black comedy:
    More free sex as incarcerations rates skyrocket. Thanks Bill Clinton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

    This is the last time I’ll say anything because I can’t afford to care, anymore. My opinions are not up for discussion. If you care then do something, about it. I’m on mute from now on.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    i think i’ve said this before on another post but in the UK both men & women as groups were granted the vote in 1918, (women over 30 at first, then in 1928 over 18, for what should be obvious reasons). Before that, as Rum pointed it out, the right to vote was had by a tiny percentage of the population & was much more to do with wealth & class than sex. 90% of the men who died in world war one didn’t have the vote.

  • Jess

    Yohami,
    Of the sources I read stoning was only done by men. But if it turns out that it was a mixed gender participant murder what difference would that make? Its still wrong isn’t it?
    .
    As to which countries suppress local protests it’s not limited to Islamic countries at all. Please google away- you can get that info yourself.
    .
    Education- you only read half my post. In single sex schools girls DO select physics and engineering. In mixed schools they don’t (possibly/probably) due to male peer pressure. I forgot to mention that in all male schools a similar, though not as prounced, effect is found for the humanities and arts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess

      Education- you only read half my post. In single sex schools girls DO select physics and engineering. In mixed schools they don’t (possibly/probably) due to male peer pressure. I forgot to mention that in all male schools a similar, though not as prounced, effect is found for the humanities and arts.

      At various times each of my kids attended single-sex schools. My son K-6, and my daughter for high school. I would say that the students selected/preferred courses of study in exactly the same way they did in coed schools. In my daughter’s class, only a handful of girls selected hard science (they all went to MIT, though, which was awesome). The difference that single sex education makes is that each sex is more comfortable behaving in its biologically natural way. Boys are not told to sit still – they’re given two extra periods to run around outside. Girls aren’t afraid to raise their hands for fear of being wrong. Drama class is less self-conscious for everyone.

      Single sex education changes in-class behavior, not gender preferences.

  • Abbot

    You wouldnt want their life any more than I would.
    .
    Nonsense. More and more, Western men are embracing “their life” as the focus is on large safe extended families. The word “feminism” is never even uttered and a man can choose among thousands, all with just about the same attitude, demeanor and expectations. The warm tropical weather serves to round out this stellar feminist-free paradise.
    .
    feminsts beleive the sexualistion of the media and mysogistic attitudes is partially repsonsible.
    .
    Oh no, it could not be that women in London have lost all control over men by providing them, their self proclaimed oppressors. with abundant casual sexual satisfaction. Feminists, by virtue of their demeanor, will never get what they want from men. Men will NOT respond positively to feminists or to sluts. Men take their commitment marching orders from disciplined patient sober pussy. Only.
    .
    realize that your men gave that to you.
    .
    and if feminists play nice, men might give them some more. And no, tantrum walks are not nice.

  • Jess

    Yohami,
    Sex attack- I meant the ones where taxi drivers had raped young girls, the ones where girls where ambushed on the streets etc. There is a campaign about safety on home journey after nights out where girls are very vulnerable. The stats on this particular type of rape are terrible.
    .
    There are some academics that do link playboy and/or porn to rape. I know there are some academics that say it does otherwise or does nothing at all. I’m not sure myself about the issue, but it’s certainly stimulated some debate here.
    .
    Susan, would you happy if your local macdonalds turned into a playboy bar? Happy if your daughter worked in one?
    .
    I’m not having a go at sex workers or playboy bunnies- just stimulating debate.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Clearly the equalization of men and women in the workplace demographics is going

    1. If men are not going to have an economic bulwark that gives them a hypergamous advantage, they are going to have to learn game so they can be tactically dominant. I’m not talking PUA, I’m talking the Athol/Yohami “be a man and be good at it” type of game. This is not really “learning” as much as re-learning the male gender roles that were the unquestioned norm until the 60′s.
    .
    2. Women can’t be de-programmed from hypergamy, but they can be deprogrammed from be spoiled and demanding everything on their checklist, and they can also ease off on the intense demand for a guy with “conventional” social status (this means toning down the intrasexual competition and “look at me!!”).
    .
    I believe these to be personal choices as much as immutable traits, but curing them involves something akin to spinster shaming…from a young age girls would have to hear “don’t act like that, guys don’t want to marry that kind of attitude.” I doubt most young women today are comfortable raising their daughters that way, the ironic thing being that the very reason they will HAVE daughters is if they learn to do this themselves so they can get husbands.

  • Jess

    On the justification on why feminism still needs to exist #1
    .
    Abbott- “Men take their commitment marching orders from disciplined patient sober pussy. Only.” (isn’t he a peach?)
    .
    “realize that your men gave that (votes) to you and if feminists play nice, men might give them some more.”. (why thank you kind sir, thanks ever so)
    .
    I have said it before, ladies please make an orderly queue, this ones a keeper. No pushing at the back there!
    .
    Can you see why I thought he might be jezabel plant? He makes such a strong case for feminism. Susan, have you checked his ISP thingy?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    if it turns out that it was a mixed gender participant murder what difference would that make? Its still wrong isn’t it?

    It would still be wrong, but it wouldnt be “violence against women” if the women are doing it. Again, this is just me wondering how involved are these women in their own defense and if they want things to be like that or not.

    As to which countries suppress local protests it’s not limited to Islamic countries at all.

    No, this wasnt about countries supressing “protests” but countries stoning women, specifically, if they raised their voice. In a country that supresses all protests, includen men protests, we would have to work to free the population, not just “free the women”

    So, which countries silence women specifically when they protest? you mentioned third world. Where is this happening?

    In single sex schools girls DO select physics and engineering. In mixed schools they don’t (possibly/probably) due to male peer pressure.

    You first said male pressure was the cause and now its a maybe? which one? Seriously, I studied engineering for a while and been running companies for years. I dont see this happening but Im interested on doing something about it IF this is happening. So is it happening, or not?

    Sex attack- I meant the ones where taxi drivers had raped young girls, the ones where girls where ambushed on the streets etc.

    Thats REALLY fucked up and criminal. Whats the relationship between these attacks and PlayBoy?

    There are some academics that do link playboy and/or porn to rape. I know there are some academics that say it does otherwise or does nothing at all.

    So you dont have your own ideas about it? these academics are not here to refute when I say rape has nothing to do with PlayBoy. Too bad.

    would you happy if your local macdonalds turned into a playboy bar? Happy if your daughter worked in one?

    How about if macdonalds turned into a gay bar? a male stripper bar? a lesbian bar? a tattoo house? a cannabis cafe? a Starbucks? damn! the horror! :-P

  • Rum

    Jess

    A frail 60 year old man would normally have had allies in the form of other warriors/clans he had fought beside while in his prime.
    A hopelessly non-warrior woman? Not so much.
    Go ahead and tell us that families of old should have allowed (or forced) their fertile young women into getting slaughtered in fighting for which they were very ill suited. Families that did would go extinct in a heart beat, to be replaced on the land by families that were not insane.

  • Abbot

    This is about abortion, but its really about the beginning of a trend where men call women out on whatever behavior is deemed unacceptable. Yeah, arrest him and a martyr he will be. Go Greg!
    .
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/abortion-billboard-lands-mexico-man-court-girlfriend/story?id=13783668

  • david foster

    “Females are also more predominant in services and males in manufacturing: plumbers, car mechanics, carpenters, construction workers, electricians, and firefighters, for example are still 95%+ male.”

    Huh? Plumbers, mechanics, electricians, etc ARE in services, except for the small number of them that work for manufacturing businesses. Both parts of his sentence are true, but the second one is hardly an example of the point he is making in the first one.

  • Mike C

    @ Nell,
    .
    Today’s Maureen Dowd column about famous men cheating is semi-relevant. She seems most angry about and bewildered by men who are “marrying up and dating down”–with “up” and “down” determined by career status in most cases. I’d be interested to hear people here tear apart her theories about why they do it
    .
    Read this:
    .
    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ladder-theory-for-men/
    .
    I’m not entirely convinced that men don’t care even a little bit about a woman’s career status when thinking about a LTR. What I’ve heard from guys in real life (I’m a college student at a “prestigious” school, so skewed sample) is that you want to go for someone similarly educated who will fit in with your friends and colleagues, etc. My theory is that the mistake women make is thinking of it as something that causes pure attraction (like looks, so more = better) rather than as a compatibility issue (like a shared desire to travel or something). What do you think?
    .
    Yes, exactly. Career status and socioeconomic status are a compatibility issue, NOT an attraction trigger. In other words, if attraction is there it may make the difference between Ladder 1 and Ladder 2 per Badger’s post. When men say they “don’t care about status” what they are really saying is it doesn’t affect attraction.

  • Rum

    M Dowd has spent the last 30 years wailing about how guys make choices that mystify her. That must be because she is so smart. She won a Pulitzer so that means she is so very wise and insightful that if she cannot understand anything about guys then no one can, not even guys. It must be wonderful to be so smart!!!

  • Mike C

    Regarding “feminism” and if we have had enough, to tell you the truth, I really have no idea what feminism is currently. It seems to encompass a variety of people who actually don’t have much in common philosophically.
    .
    Most “isms”…communism, libertarianism, fascism have some core philosophy. With feminism, Jenna Jameson can be a feminist and so can Andrea Dworkin. How does that make any sense?
    .
    I think the primary objectives…right to vote, equal access to career and education, were accomplished long ago, and now it has become a beast in search of “issues” to feed itself and justify its existance which is why a common sense comment sparks marches. In some sense, some of the extreme parts almost seem like a caricature. Honestly, I think Susan B. Anthony would probably roll over in her grave with some of today’s feminists.

  • SayWhaat

    Badger,

    Consider the implications of this statement:

    curing them involves something akin to spinster shaming…from a young age girls would have to hear “don’t act like that, guys don’t want to marry that kind of attitude.”

    and this statement:

    that despite equal numbers, rambunctious boys in class shout down girls waiting and raising their hands.

    Why are girls waiting for their turn to speak? Because we have been taught to do so. We have been taught to passively wait our turn to speak before others because this is proper. This is the feminine communication style. This is feminine behavior.

    Men and women have different communication styles – fact. So by saying that the world does not have to reorient itself towards certain communication styles (a point which I kind of agree with, by the way – I’ve never had a problem speaking up or being the dominant voice in an academic discussion), you are saying that girls in school should learn to be more rambunctious and assertive when trying to speak. However, this would be going against what is decidedly appealing to men, because by being loud and rambunctious, these girls would be behaving decidedly unfeminine. And according to you (and many of the men here), no guy wants to marry that attitude.

    So what do we do? I want to say that women should be assertive in their career lives and more…*ahem*…feminine for their husbands, but the problem is that these behaviors are established in school, where academic and social goals intersect. Girls want to be assertive and make their opinons heard, but they also want a boyfriend. What you seem to be saying is that girls shouldn’t be afraid to be dominant voices in the classroom, but at the same time, men don’t find that attitude appealing, so these girls are basically screwed for any shot of a relationship anyway. Do you see the catch-22?

    This is what women have to grow up with. We have the ambition and drive for a successful career, but we also want families. Unlike men, we have to make a choice between the two. This is what feminism originally aimed to resolve. And personally, while I think it has been successful in certain fields, it most certainly hasn’t in others. If you want equalization in the workplace, the solution isn’t to scale back the advancement of women in favor of men, it’s to offer the same incentives that women get to step off the Mommy track in the workplace to ALL parents: mandatory paid parental leave for both Mom and Dad, and no penalization for either parent in promotions.

    Sweden is already doing this.

  • SayWhaat

    This is what feminism originally aimed to resolve.

    Er, what feminism aims* to resolve today. (The relevant branches, in any case.)

  • collegeboy

    Hey men,

    feminists are not your problem, they want a world that is fair, for more people. Bad women are your problem. Remember this United we stand, Divided we fall. You need to put some of your differences aside with feminists and focus on solving the root causes of the problems we face as a people. Like healthcare, economy, wars, and especially corruption it is everywhere, etc.

    We are broke, because of a plutocracy (government works for rich), not women’s success.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    SayWhaat,

    Being assertive is different than having an “attitude”. The attitude men complain about is usually about being spoiled ilogical and demanding, its not about speaking your mind, its about imposing and “being a bitch”.

    Men also complain that women dont communicate and act like everyone should read their minds. Ask men around, you´ll find men actually like when women are clear and speak their minds about issues.

    Do you see any man here complaining that women talk? anyone saying a woman who talks her mind is unattractive? the opposite, really.

    Ah, but the “attitude” is something different. Entitlement is a bitch.

    When you say this:

    Men and women have different communication styles – fact.

    Do you mean men and women have different biological communication intelligences? or you mean that both genders have different culturally imposed communications? I find both to be true, but wondering about what you mean.

    If you want equalization in the workplace, the solution isn’t to scale back the advancement of women in favor of men, it’s to offer the same incentives that women get to step off the Mommy track in the workplace to ALL parents: mandatory paid parental leave for both Mom and Dad, and no penalization for either parent in promotions.

    Thing is, this is not realistic. The corporations, the ones employing people, are not an endless pool of money. People do have to choose what they want with their lives, no one can “have it all” because time and resources are limited and everyone has to carry with the repercussions of their choices. You cant spend your life raising children AND compete with someone who´s using that same time to play the clarinete. When the live gig comes, the clarinete player will kick your ass.

    By forcing corporations to pay for these decisions they lose money. Where is that money going to come? nobody pays me when my employees dont work.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    In other words my company is not a freaking kindergarten. I offer jobs for people who want a career and want to make money and get really good at it. If everyone (men and women) just get pregnant and decide get off and I still have to pay them, I go broke.

  • Abbot

    In any case in many countries they would be beaten half to death.
    ,
    Nonsense. A slut…walk event in many countries would only cause feminists to be despised for upsetting the tranquil and normal human way of life, rather than just mocked as in the West

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Collegeboy

    feminists are not your problem, they want a world that is fair, for more people.

    If that was the aim, we could all jump in the bandwagon.

    Feminism wants a world that is fair to women and keeps portraiting men as the enemy. And it happens to have enough power and influence to be a problem. The anti-mysoginy implementation turned into misandry, and they “dont realize it”.

    Too busy finding new stuff to complain about to take care of the new messes and injustices they are creating.

  • SayWhaat

    If everyone (men and women) just get pregnant and decide get off and I still have to pay them, I go broke.

    Google and Pixar are just two examples of companies that are making this work by fusing the workplace into a 24/7 living center. (Google also offers a child care center and back-up child care just 5 minutes from their headquarters.) I don’t think anyone is saying that these companies are on the brink of bankruptcy for their offered parental benefits.

  • Abbot

    mandatory paid parental leave
    .
    The ultimate feminists fantasy – get inside the male-female dynamic on the home front via the social engineering of the workplace. How about this – women leave the workforce, raise men’s wages as there will less labor supply and that additional income can support a stay at home wife and mother. That is, stop subsidizing a womans desire to be a mother and have a career and making entire families suffer all in the name of the dismantling-the-patriarchy fantasy.

  • SayWhaat

    Do you mean men and women have different biological communication intelligences? or you mean that both genders have different culturally imposed communications? I find both to be true, but wondering about what you mean.

    Both. Men are more taciturn than women when it comes to certain things like purely social interaction, but they’re taught to compete when there is a goal in mind (debating a point in class, for instance).

  • SayWhaat

    By the way, this is a great lecture from Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg on why more men than women reach the top of their professions (and what women can do to aim just as high).

  • SayWhaat
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Did you notice that Sheryl Sandberg says at one point that her daughter is two, and at another that her daughter is three? IMO, that negates her entire speech. She is not spending much time parenting.

  • SayWhaat

    stop subsidizing a womans desire to be a mother and have a career and making entire families suffer

    Lol. I can’t wait for you to marry a stay-at-home Tiger Mother. She will castrate you.

  • collegeboy

    think more positive guys. Free health care = more Free sex.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    SayWhaat,

    Google and Pixar are just two examples of companies that are making this work by fusing the workplace into a 24/7 living center. (Google also offers a child care center and back-up child care just 5 minutes from their headquarters.) I don’t think anyone is saying that these companies are on the brink of bankruptcy for their offered parental benefits.

    Facepalm. And Diddy has his own jet and Madonna bought an entire isle. How does this relate to a social implementation where people gets fair deals and the economy can thrive?

    Fortune 500 companies have more money than I do. Are you saying every company should follow Google/Pixar? if I wanted to, where do I get the money to do so?

  • collegeboy

    Women are very afraid of STD’s (more than unintended pregnancies). White women with better access to health care, are more open to intercourse. That’s where I’m getting my statement.

    Free health care = more Free sex.

    But the plutocracy, isn’t so bad when it comes to “just” sex. Its everything else that will be missing.

  • collegeboy

    @YOHAMI

    I know. Feminists are idealists not realists.

    Allot of attractive women are ruthless and brutal. I actually had some no bull shit conversations with a couple of women (told me about other women) and one very attractive woman. I know what they do and how they think about who they chose for sex and what they do to their boyfriends/husbands, that’s why I want love, and will avoid those type of women. (you think I want love, instead of sexual variety, nooo way, I want both, but I must settle for love, if I can find it)

    Having children is masochistic whether it be men or women. Especially under corruption.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    collegeboy,

    Yeah. In my experience the hotter the woman the more rotten she is inside. Thats SO sad. Women usually use and manipulate men. The hotter the woman, the more normal she thinks that is, the more she gets away with it. The more the endless carousel of men orbiting around her asking to be used. Sad stuff.

    Good luck finding love (nothing sarcastic about it). You dont have to settle for love OR sexual variety though, there are plenty of variants for that game.

    I think having children is a delight – when you want them. And usually women want them more, so I guess its not “masochist” for them but a biological assertion.

  • collegeboy

    @YOHAMI

    That’s what just killed my motivation, just after graduating from college with honors, published author,etc. (I’m seeking a meaning and a strategy in life)

    It is very hard to find a very sexually attractive woman, that won’t cause you harm.

    So I know that I will just have to settle, for something else (intelligence maybe). Its an unobtainable goal for me, at least.

  • collegeboy

    @collegeboy: Its an unobtainable goal for me, at least.

    I meant too risky, not unobtainable. I don’t want to be a masochists, Its like slowing and painfully being killed. I just not up for that kind of risk (I have seen some pretty humiliating stuff that government does to fathers). Basically, I want very little risk, of that kind of situation. So yes government, influenced by feminism is causing harm, because they lack fairness.

  • Höllenhund

    It should. Having a good-earning partner is a safety net almost required by our chaotic economic times.

    This is based on the assumption that the good-earning woman will divert some of her income to her partner just because he’s her partner. There are zero guarantees for this. This is anything but a safety net.

  • Höllenhund

    You cannot fight feminism with “be nice to men because is a nice thing to do” without concrete outcomes the hamsters are free to run in circles as the speed of light.

    In other words, women find it rather difficult to muster up any sympathy for men.

  • Höllenhund

    And I’d appreciate your losing the shaming language: nominally, quasi, etc.

    Heh, I used those words for a reason. You decided to oppose feminism because you concluded that roughly 10% of its consequences are harmful to (mainly) women. I’m sure you have no problem with 90% of feminism’s accomplishments. Hence calling you an anti-feminist would be partially inaccurate. You also espouse some conservative views (the Sexual Revolution should never have happened, sluttishness is bad for everyone etc.) even though you never call yourself a conservative, do you?

    I am appealing to women with an argument that offers an incentive to overturn feminism – to vote against it, to deny funding to it, to say bad things about it at dinner parties. “Be good” will not catch the ear of my audience. They’ve most of them heard it every week from ministers, priests and rabbis.

    No, they never have. And I never said you should adopt their religious arguments. My question was this: why don’t you and other women like you ever put forth the following argument?

    “The currently declining condition of American men is largely the result of deliberate feminist policies. Men are being systematically marginalized and unjustly victimized by the feminist establishment through anti-male economic policies and laws. We find this unacceptable because American men are our fellow citizens who don’t deserve such discrimination and injustice.”

    I never hear a single woman say this. I certainly never hear priests or rabbis ever say anything like this. The anti-feminist female argument I hear instead is “let’s treat men better so that they will give us what we want from them”. It seems men don’t even exist as fully equal human beings in many female minds, only as accessories in life (dutiful providers, protectors, lovers, sex partners). As if men only have any value in society as long as they do stuff for – and give stuff to – women.

    Personal fulfillment – if you don’t care about what’s happening to men, there won’t be any for you to marry. This is analagous to – if you don’t care about the planet, it won’t be here for your descendants. If you don’t fund breast cancer research, you will regret it when you are the 1 in 7 who gets it. Etc.

    The funny thing is that many men simply don’t think in such selfish ways. Many men have supported feminists throughout history because they genuinely cared about women’s lot and believed that giving them equal rights will be a good idea in itself. Not all feminist men thought “yeah great, we will turn all women into empowered sluts so that we can pump and dump them without all that courting and other shit”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      You decided to oppose feminism because you concluded that roughly 10% of its consequences are harmful to (mainly) women. I’m sure you have no problem with 90% of feminism’s accomplishments.

      I am on record as supporting gender equity. Put me in the Camille Paglia camp. I have, over the years, been at odds with feminism on many issues, both because I believe they seek more than equity vis a vis males, and because I consider some of their positions unethical. I have written numerous times to criticize feminists’ treatment of males, from early childhood onward.

      “The currently declining condition of American men is largely the result of deliberate feminist policies. Men are being systematically marginalized and unjustly victimized by the feminist establishment through anti-male economic policies and laws. We find this unacceptable because American men are our fellow citizens who don’t deserve such discrimination and injustice.

      For starters:
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/09/relationshipstrategies/sign-me-up-for-male-studies/
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/02/08/hookinguprealities/i-hate-math-especially-on-college-campuses/
      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/04/14/hookinguprealities/duke-gets-it-wrong-again-invites-injustice/

      In writing this blog, I have become particularly familiar with the sex-positive branch, which happens to be the only real active and viable constituency, as far as I can tell. So it makes sense to do battle there, and it fits with the mission of my blog.

      You are ignorant of my position on a large number of other issues that relate to men, because I haven’t written about them. Nor will I, as I am not a MRA blogger. I think it’s pretty audacious to call out a blogger for what they don’t say, according to your preferred script. Your voice is not my voice, your priorities are not my priorities, your values are not my values. Your description of women as morally inferior to men is unwelcome here.

  • Rae

    The US economy is in a huge hole, and that is a serious problem. (I left the US for Australia, and am probably not coming back. One of the things that really alarmed me about my last visit home was the sheer number of people sleeping in subway stations.) However, I really don’t see why it’s helpful to frame it as though men and women are two separate teams, and men lose whenever women win. (And to head off objections, I don’t really care if some feminist framed it that way first. Even if they did, why compound their errors?)

    Why should you care? Because you want to marry a man who earns at least as much as you do, if not more.

    I don’t, actually. But I want to live in a society where everybody is making enough money to have a decent quality of life. I don’t want to be poor, and I also don’t want to be rich in a country full of poor people who resent me.

    I believe that feminism supports things that are good for everybody in the end. For example, making sure everybody has access to reproductive health care is a piece of basic social infrastructure. Ditto maternity and paternity leave. I am deeply horrified to see the US destroying its basic social infrastructure.

    I have heard stories about strange creatures called “feminists”–beautiful rich white women who eat yogurt, do yoga, use their sex appeal to extort money and drinks from men, believe themselves to be precious princesses, and drink the blood of puppies as a refreshing aperitif–but I have never actually seen any of these so-called “feminists” except maybe on TV commercials, so I am not really convinced they exist.

  • Höllenhund

    However, I really don’t see why it’s helpful to frame it as though men and women are two separate teams, and men lose whenever women win.

    It’s helpful for the simple reason that Western laws and norms treat men and women as two separate teams with wholly different entitlements, economic interests, rights, obligations and goals. Women are propped up economically, men aren’t. Women have all the reproductive and parental rights, men none. Rape is persecuted, cuckoldry (its female equivalent) goes unpunished and is in fact encouraged. The Pill exists, the male birth control pill doesn’t. The male desire for sexual variety is regulated, female hypergamy isn’t. The list goes on.

    All in all, neither men nor women have any objective reason to consider both genders to be one team with united goals and interests. The simple reason is that due to feminist influence, Western societies decided that male-female relations should be based on power and competition instead of reciprocity and cooperation, as in the old days. We can complain about it if we want, but it’s a reality which isn’t going away soon.

  • Rae

    Rape is persecuted, cuckoldry (its female equivalent) goes unpunished and is in fact encouraged.

    Seriously, what the fuck?! The male equivalent of raping a woman is… raping a man. The female equivalent of cheating on a man is… cheating on a woman. Both genders can be raped, and both genders can be cheated on. And while having a cheating partner does suck, it is really not comparable to being physically assaulted.

    Damn. I was having nice thoughts about Dylan Moran and his sexy voice, and then I stupidly clicked back over to this thread.

  • chris

    @Höllenhund

    “The currently declining condition of American men is largely the result of deliberate feminist policies. Men are being systematically marginalized and unjustly victimized by the feminist establishment through anti-male economic policies and laws. We find this unacceptable because American men are our fellow citizens who don’t deserve such discrimination and injustice.”

    I never hear a single woman say this.

    People are inherently selfish. If you want to persuade others you should show them how your way will benefit them more then your oppenants way. That is simply called being practical.

    @Rae

    Actually, from a evolutionary biological/psychological perspective, cuckoldry of men is the equivalent of the rape of a women. Both entail the procurement of the other’s reproductive resources against their wishes and to their detriment.

    see Trivers, R. L. (1972) Parental investment and sexual selection. In B. Campbell (Ed.) Sexual selection and the descent of man, 1871-1971 (pp 136–179). Chicago, Aldine.

    see Buss, D. M., R. J. Larsen, D. Westen and J. Semmelroth (1992). Sex differences in jealousy: Evolution, physiology, and psychology. Psychological Science 3:251–255.

    or indeed anything in the evolutionary biology field related to paternal investment theory or anything in the evolutionary psychological field related to jealousy. Significant sex differences are observed as would be expected from evolutionary theory.

    Furthermore, if your a women, your inability to understand the severity of the emotional reaction to cuckoldry by men, and hence perhaps it’s equivalence in men’s minds, could most likely be the result of a feminised brain structure.

    see http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911001413

    Sex differences are real, and equality does not necessarily equal equity.

    Real justice would entail taking into consideration what we now know about human behavioral biology and the implications that this would have for society and individuals.

  • Höllenhund

    Seriously, what the fuck?! The male equivalent of raping a woman is… raping a man.

    Not really. From an evolutionary point of view, male-on-female rape is the unreciprocated use of female reproductive capacity by forcefully circumventing female sexual choice. In other words, a rapist forces a woman to assume a maternal role while giving nothing in return – this has been the usual purpose of rape before contraception existed. When a woman wants to do the same to a man i.e. make him assume a paternal role against his will for her benefit, she resorts to cuckoldry, not rape.

    Male-on-male rape is completely different. It’s normally practiced as means to exercise domination over a voluntarily or involuntarily submissive man in an all-male hierarchy, or to use a man as a sexual outlet when no women are available (prison rape is an obvious example for both).

  • Höllenhund

    People are inherently selfish.

    No. Women are inherently selfish – or in other words, they are, on average, more selfish than men. This is also easily explained by evo psych.

    If you want to persuade others you should show them how your way will benefit them more then your oppenants way. That is simply called being practical.

    How do you explain the behavior of white men who supported the abolitionist movement and the civil rights movement out of moral considerations?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How do you explain the behavior of white men who supported the abolitionist movement and the civil rights movement out of moral considerations?

      Abraham Lincoln was not one of those men. He cared about, and appealed to others to care about, preventing the dissolution of the Union.

  • http://averagecohabitingchump.wordpress.com/ Workshy Joe

    @SayWhaat: Yes, I agree with you about class. That’s a good point.

    The classic scenario there is a woman financially assisting her partner through medical school or law school only for him dump her once he’s qualified and making good money.

    See folks, I’m not “pro-man” or “pro-woman”. I’m “pro-reality” and “pro-truth”.

  • Anonymous

    The figures for these a levels in mixed schools are many times lower than all girls schools leading to some suggesting all schools should be single sex.

    Oh how typical of someone like “Jess” to use second-hand statistics without even bothering to clarify. Girls in single sex schools don’t just do better at “physics”, they do better at everything. As do boys. But you won’t find a feminist within earshot who’ll endorse single sex education.

  • chris

    No. Women are inherently selfish – or in other words, they are, on average, more selfish than men. This is also easily explained by evo psych.

    Do you have any scientific study/research which backs up that claim?

    How do you explain the behavior of white men who supported the abolitionist movement and the civil rights movement out of moral considerations?

    Abolition: Moral posturing and the subsequent status that would go along with that. If not that, then a group indentification that exceeded the group identification of other white men at the time that resulted in it seeming in their interests to advocate abolition, aka Universalism or Humanism.

    Civil rights: Advocates of communism with the civil rights movement as a means to destroy the white male capitalist power structure. see Antonio Gramsci and his thoughts of cultural hegemony. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci#Hegemony

    Mind you though I am neither an American nor a Historian, so my answer to this question above is purely speculative opinion.

    Ultimately, I believe morality to be the product of evolution.
    see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

    The ultimate cause of evolution is self-interest. So, it would follow that since morality is the product evolution, then the ultimate cause of it would be self-interest.

    Thus, if you wish to persuade someone, if not relying on the explicit rhetoric of their pre-existing moral framework/ideology, then demonstrate how the positions you advocate benefit them and the positions advocated by your opposition harm them, as the moral positions people hold are the result of self-interest.

  • chris

    that should be

    as ultimately, the moral positions people hold are the result of self-interest.

  • Abbot

    Ditto maternity and paternity leave.
    .
    Bull. Shit. Feminists support so-called “paternity leave” NOT because they give a crap about men or are responding to the 1% of men whining about not getting some spoiled brat entitlement. They support it because they feel it increases the chances of men changing their “socially constructed” non-desire to pull more weight at home. They support it because it gets men to work less thus possibly leading to more “equal earnings” for women. If it truly benefited men or it was desired by them, then men would be the ones howling about it and not women. But here we are. Articles written about this are heavily feminist influenced.

  • Abbot

    you won’t find a feminist within earshot who’ll endorse single sex education.
    .
    Out of fear that segregation will lead to lower quality education for girls. Just like separate dorms will lead to less stimulating sex education for women in college. Better to get some unproven marginal benefit from mixing with boys and just put up with the consequences of doing so. Feminists are such mental giants.

  • chris

    Mind you of course, my position on the best way to persuade someone could be influenced by the way in which I perceive the world, and on scores of Machiavellianism, I tend to score higher then most. Thus, that could affect it.

    Nonetheless, I believe my argument to be logically and scientifically sound.

    I just offer this acknowledgement/qualification of my own potential biases as means of providing the most information for people to determine whether or not they should pursue my position of how to persuade.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @chris
      Welcome to HUS, I appreciate your insightful comments. Stick around.

  • Wanderer

    How do you explain the behavior of white men who supported the abolitionist movement and the civil rights movement out of moral considerations?

    There may have been a few of them, but not very many. For the most part, whites who supported abolitionism did so out of economic self-interest (slavery was inimical to free labor, as the Northerners saw it, and Jim Crow was bad for business). Not every man who couched his support for “progressive” causes in high-minded rhetoric was necessarily being honest about his ulterior motivations.

    In any case, though, even if we were to accept that men are virtuous and selfless and women are venal and selfish (evobio explains it, as it explains everything, after all), it’s a reality we simply have to accept, and condemning Susan for her selfish behavior is going to accomplish absolutely nothing. It isn’t as if women are sentient beings like men, after all–they simply aren’t as highly evolved. Asking a woman to think of anything beyond her self-interest is as futile as asking a cat not to chase mice. Therefore, rather than trying to reason with animals, we should simply take advantage of their pre-programmed instincts–by utilizing cats as vermin exterminators, and by utilizing women like Susan as useful pawns in the war against feminism. So what if she’s “selfish?” Nobody condemns a cat for mindlessly obeying its instincts so long as they live in a mouse-free home. By the same token, what’s the point of condemning Susan for mindlessly obeying her selfless instincts so long as it aids in the struggle?

    If women really are stupid, miserable creatures who deserve no rights, as you and many MRAs believe (a proposition for which there may be some evidence–I am, actually, not trying to be as confrontational as I might seem to be), they also deserve no responsibility for their actions, and we really have no business asking them to live up to any moral standard, of selflessness or anything else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wanderer

      It isn’t as if women are sentient beings like men, after all–they simply aren’t as highly evolved. Asking a woman to think of anything beyond her self-interest is as futile as asking a cat not to chase mice. Therefore, rather than trying to reason with animals, we should simply take advantage of their pre-programmed instincts–by utilizing cats as vermin exterminators, and by utilizing women like Susan as useful pawns in the war against feminism

      I’d like to think this is satire, but I fear you are in earnest. Please know that I care about males even though they include people with attitudes such as yours.

      Please leave my “home” and go back to the Spearhead now.

  • Wanderer

    Oops, “selfless instincts” should be “selfish instincts,” above. How I wish guests could edit their comments :/

  • Höllenhund

    An American 26 yo female lawyer and a Chinese farmer with no education and no English. Now there’s a brilliant suggestion!

    Did you notice the phrase “high-earning”? I used it for a reason. Both Indian and Chinese cities are full of hardcore protector-provider betas with good jobs yet unable to find wives due to the massive gender imbalance. I’m not being sarcastic. American betas are routinely advised to move to countries where the local SMP suits them better. It’s just common sense. It logically follows that American women looking for high-earning, stable husbands should consider moving to countries where, unlike in the USA, such men are in great abundance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      American betas are routinely advised to move to countries where the local SMP suits them better.

      Not by me. I think it’s an extreme and unnecessary strategy for all but a few men. And only a few men have done it. The idea of an American woman moving to Beijing, with a far lower quality of life (extreme pollution, lack of modern plumbing), setting up house and looking for a Chinese boyfriend is laughable, and you know it.

  • Lavazza

    Höllenhund: “In other words, women find it rather difficult to muster up any sympathy for men.”

    Feminism: The radical notion that only women are people.

  • Höllenhund

    Indeed.

  • Jess

    Say what,
    You made some great posts- thank you. I always envy people who can capture arguments so well.
    .
    Mike c- what is feminism?
    I have always seen it myself as trying to overturn injustices against women but in a very humane context. I have never seen it as a male bashing exercise.
    .
    As to why Jameson and dworkin are both feminists, it’s because no 2 people have the same opinions. Prime ministers Blair and brown were both labour leaders but differed bitterly on key policies. Same for any religion or political movement.
    .

  • Jess

    Susan re sandberg,
    Ouch, cheap shot don’t you think? I can think of a few devoted mothers who momentarily got their children’s age wrong. Hell I have been gotten my own age wrong on occasion cos time flies so quickly (I was mistakenly 29 for years- ahem)

  • Jess

    Susan re education,
    For the uk at least the ratios of girls choosing sciences in single sex girls is dramatically higher than in mixed schools. That’s despite media and cultural pressures.
    .
    It may not have happened for your children but that doesn’t overturn the hard data does it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      Links please from reputable sources.

  • Tom

    There are places on earth where women do not have the same rights as men,
    where women are subservient.Where women must walk 3 paces behind their man. Changing that male attitude, in other parts of the world, is really what the feminist movement is all about. It is not a new movement, it has been evolving for a long time.
    It took the civil rights movement to give black people equal rights under the law, they so justly deserved. Without civil unrest, their movemnt would never have taken flight, or at least it would have taken a lot longer.
    It was less than 100 years ago that women got the right to vote (19th Amendment)
    About 60 years ago they stopped arresting women on beaches for exposing too much skin.(a joke by todays standards)
    It took Title 9 to give girls the same rights as boys athletically, in schools.
    It took a law to be passed to give women equal pay for equal work.
    I am not surprised at all there is a movement by women to equalize women as a social class, letting them know they are free to act as they choose, without the worry or disdain from men still living in the 19th century.
    I know by locker room attitudes, many men still see women as inferior. I am not just talking physically, but in most all aspects.
    Nope not surprised at all. Most social classes treated unfairly will eventually revolt.

  • Tom

    @ Byron
    I’d not seen these stats before Susan, thanks so much for posting. Women in the 20′s – 30′s now out-earn their male contemporaries & the education gap has been widening for decades, as was recently reported:

    _________________________
    Could it be women have raised the standards? Dont blame males if women are out working men in college and thus getting the better jobs.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…shouldn’t we say that men who were willing to put their lives at very serious risk because of their belief in the Union…or for that matter, their belief in State’s Rights…were also motivated by moral considerations?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster
      Yes, of course! I did not mean to suggest otherwise. I was just responding to the particular moral consideration that Hollenhund highlighted – going to war being the right thing to do for equality.

  • Tom

    @ Hollenhund

    Western societies decided that male-female relations should be based on power and competition instead of reciprocity and cooperation, as in the old days.
    ________________________-
    The old days involved women staying home, raising kids, doing laundry, going to the market, cooking food, and just laying there and hoping he`d cum soon so she could go to sleep. Is that what you call cooperation? ..Women today have poven that they have other aspirations than the menial. Has it changed society, absolutely it has. But now the horse is out of the barn, and I am not sure if it is ever willgo back, or if it even should.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Tom:

    The point is, as i mention in the post, that men are in a worse place educationally now than women were before the 1970′s, which was then thought deserving of radical action to correct the 60-40 imbalance on campus, which was achieved by the beginning of the 1980s. Every year since then the numbers of women in higher education have increased & men have decreased. Now that the positions are exactly reversed, no-one – least of all feminists – have put forward any plans to fix that imbalance. There is no outcry, no concern for young men & boys futures at all, which clearly demonstrates a profoundly contemptuous & misandric society.

  • Mel

    Girl Power is so robust the girls themselves can’t even handle it.

    My niece, who is 10, has remarked on the same thing. She’s smart enough to recognize that it’s just a lot of vacuous flattery.

    I think that an unintended consequence of this trend is to make smart girls question what it is that’s wrong with them that they should need so much special attention and support. My niece has asked me a few questions to this effect because she sees that it’s only girls who get this treatment. The boys can fail and be corrected, and move on, but girls have to be told that they’re ‘perfect’ and are never wrong.

  • Tom

    @David Foster
    Susan…shouldn’t we say that men who were willing to put their lives at very serious risk because of their belief in the Union…or for that matter, their belief in State’s Rights…were also motivated by moral considerations?

    __________________________-
    The civil war was about states rights and keeping the union.. However do not EVER doubt that the state rights being argued about was the right to have slaves.
    If you read the declorations of Secessions of various states, the right to keep slaves was the main reason.. it was often stated early in the document…

    http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
    The first fifty or so words in Georgia`s document
    “””The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.

    Mississippi`s scond paragraph
    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

    texas

    She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery– the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits– a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

    It is in EVERY southern states document of Srcession

  • Tom

    @ Byron
    Every year since then the numbers of women in higher education have increased & men have decreased. Now that the positions are exactly reversed, no-one – least of all feminists – have put forward any plans to fix that imbalance. There is no outcry, no concern for young men & boys futures at all, which clearly demonstrates a profoundly contemptuous & misandric society.
    __________________
    It is not womens fault they are out performing men. Obviously women are now more driven because they know to get the jobs, they MUST out perform men. The imbalance is the fault of men, not thee ambition of women. Like I said, women have raised the bar, men have to put down the Playstation and get back to business….

  • jess

    susan re education,
    .
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52814117/112/SINGLE-SEX-SCHOOLS
    .
    http://www.singlesexschools.org/
    .
    there 100′s of sources, the 2nd i choose cos its the usa

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      That link is no good – it’s sponsored by the single sex ed folks. As I said, I have nothing against it – I sent my kids to single sex schools. But the evidence needs to come from a neutral source.

  • Aldonza

    @Stephenie Rowling

    Now 40 years later are feminists happy?

    I’m pretty darn happy. I wouldn’t want to go back 40 years, 30, 20, or even 10 years.

    Are you happy? And by “you”, I mean *you*. The personal you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie, @Aldonza

      Now 40 years later are feminists happy?

      I’m pretty darn happy. I wouldn’t want to go back 40 years, 30, 20, or even 10 years.

      Aldonza, you’re proving the point. The work of feminism has been completed. You’re happy, I’m happy, women have incredible opportunities. When do we stop giving them special privileges and affirmative action, or reconsider an elementary school culture that penalizes active, healthy boys? If you ask Jessica Valenti if she’s happy, she will say “Of course not! The evil patriarchy still controls the agenda!”

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    You’re demonstrating my point: if the same arguments you make were used back in 1970 but reversed, i.e

    ‘Dont blame males if men are out working women in college and thus getting the better jobs..’,

    ‘It is not mens fault they are out performing women’

    the feminists would have had a shitty fit. Now the inequality is exactly reversed there is no public outcry trying to redress the balance, to weed out discrimination & examine the teaching methods of the schools that are making boys drop out. If feminism were literally about equality then that would be its first priority. As it is, there is not only a deafening silence upon the matter but anger & outrage whenever the subject is raised.

    http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_258.asp

  • jess

    sorry susan
    .
    i dont know why my link did that

  • Aldonza

    1. Education- many women find peer pressure puts them off maths, physics and engineering. The figures for these a levels in mixed schools are many times lower than all girls schools leading to some suggesting all schools should be single sex. This is of interest to feminists and is own the whole a good natured debate.

    This one is simple. It’s been blasted all over this thread about how men aren’t impressed by career credentials. Fact is, women choose their educational path at the same time they’re learning about what appeals to men. It doesn’t take a National Honor Society inductee to figure out that working on her abs and hair will get her further with guys than studying for the Math AP exam. In fact, at that age, most guys *are* intimidated by girls with hard science skills.

  • Höllenhund

    For starters:

    Yes, I remember those posts. Consider your conclusions:

    “We can’t have healthy relationships if men are not thriving.”
    “The pool of educated, marriageable men is shrinking, and there is no solution in sight. If marriage and motherhood are your goal anytime in the next ten years, then now is not too soon to consider and pursue a strategy for experiencing healthy relationships.”

    Don’t you think they prove my point, namely that your arguments are gynocentric even when you make them specifically about men? I’m not making an accusation, but I cannot help but notice that I have never heard of any man making a similar argument about women either these days or in the past. Have you ever heard a man say something like this?:

    “We need to help women thrive because otherwise we cannot get the sort of relationships from them that we want. Who would want to be surrounded by miserable, vindictive, unpleasant women?”
    “My fellow men, the pool of marriageable women fit to become good wives and caring mothers is rapidly shrinking, we need to something to remedy that. After all, these are the sort of women we consider marrying, don’t we?”

    It’s reasonable to suspect most women would go apeshit or at least recoil in disgust if she heard something like that.

    Nor will I, as I am not a MRA blogger. I think it’s pretty audacious to call out a blogger for what they don’t say, according to your preferred script.

    You’re concerned about the condition of men and you tell your female readers that something should be done about that. That’s pretty close to being an MRA. What I find intriguing is that you don’t specifically say that the well-being of men has value in itself.

    Your description of women as morally inferior to men

    ?

    Abraham Lincoln was not one of those men.

    Where did I say otherwise?

    The idea of an American woman moving to Beijing, with a far lower quality of life (extreme pollution, lack of modern plumbing), setting up house and looking for a Chinese boyfriend is laughable, and you know it.

    No, I don’t know it. I’m serious. You complain that American men are becoming economically marginalized, which hurts the relationship prospects of American women. I mentioned that India and China has an enormous surplus of high-earning professional single men who won’t find wives at home no matter what they do. Plus both are booming economies. Do the math.

    And lack of modern plumbing in Beijing? Seriously? ROFL

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      “We need to help women thrive because otherwise we cannot get the sort of relationships from them that we want. Who would want to be surrounded by miserable, vindictive, unpleasant women?”

      Isn’t this exactly what the vast majority of men did during the Women’s Movement? In fact, they went further: “And if we go along with feminism we get to help them explore their sexuality. Free Love for everyone, groovy!”

      You’re concerned about the condition of men and you tell your female readers that something should be done about that. That’s pretty close to being an MRA. What I find intriguing is that you don’t specifically say that the well-being of men has value in itself.

      I am not an MRA, please don’t call me that! I am concerned about the condition of men because I love several men, I want them to thrive and be happy. I extrapolate that into a general concern for mankind and society. I also worry about what will happen to women if our men stagnate, and the idea of a future where men are not needed frightens me. It’s a dystopian vision. It should not be necessary for me to write posts stating explicitly that the well-being of women, men, children, animals, the planet, the economy, the church, etc. has value in some abstract way. I believe that men and women are each happier when they’re together, and I’m trying to bridge that gap.

      And lack of modern plumbing in Beijing? Seriously? ROFL

      My son lived in Beijing for six months. Aside from the luxury hotels, toilets are generally a hole in the floor in the shower stall. When you take a shower, the water runs down into the shit until it bubbles up around your feet. I don’t think my son took a crap sitting down more than a couple of times when he was there.

  • Höllenhund

    Obviously women are now more driven because they know to get the jobs, they MUST out perform men. The imbalance is the fault of men, not thee ambition of women.

    Affirmative action for women, female-friendly educational reforms and the systematic marginalization of boys in schools apparently had nothing to do with all this.

    Feminists are funny this way. If women are at an advantage in anything, it’s due to their innate superiority. If men are at an advantage in anything, it’s due to anti-woman discrimination.

  • Aldonza

    @Byron

    The point is, as i mention in the post, that men are in a worse place educationally now than women were before the 1970′s, which was then thought deserving of radical action to correct the 60-40 imbalance on campus, which was achieved by the beginning of the 1980s.

    It only took roughly 100 years to correct the educational situation for women. Be patient.

  • Höllenhund

    The old days involved women staying home, raising kids, doing laundry, going to the market, cooking food, and just laying there and hoping he`d cum soon so she could go to sleep. Is that what you call cooperation?

    Yes, it is. Disregarding the usual feminist BS about all women being sexually frustrated and female orgasms being unheard of before 1965, it literally is. In the traditional Western household, the husband and wife concentrated on roles they were the best at in order to create a stable family for their children, instead of jockeying for a better position of power within the relationship and competing for the same jobs. That’s called cooperation. Duh.

  • Höllenhund

    It only took roughly 100 years to correct the educational situation for women.

    Is this some sort of joke?

  • Höllenhund

    Could it be women have raised the standards?

    You mean the average intellectual performance of American college students has risen in the past 50 years? LOL

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Tom..”The old days involved women staying home, raising kids, doing laundry, going to the market, cooking food, and just laying there and hoping he`d cum soon so she could go to sleep”

    In the Olden Days, the home was usually a center of economic activity in which husband and wife *co-operated*, whether that economic activity was farming or spinning-weaving. The archtype of the 1950s cannot be accurately projected back in history.

  • Tom

    @ Byron
    You’re demonstrating my point: if the same arguments you make were used back in 1970 but reversed, i.e

    ‘Dont blame males if men are out working women in college and thus getting the better jobs..’,

    ‘It is not mens fault they are out performing women’

    the feminists would have had a shitty fit. Now the inequality is exactly reversed there is no public outcry trying to redress the balance, to weed out discrimination & examine the teaching methods of the schools that are making boys drop out. If feminism were literally about equality then that would be its first priority. As it is, there is not only a deafening silence upon the matter but anger & outrage whenever the subject is raised.

    _____________________
    No Byron it is not the same at all…..Back 40years ago men had ALWAYS been in power, had always had the advantages, it had NEVER been a level playing field. The only thing that has changed is women attitudes. They got tired of being told they were second class , homemakers etc. Now days, it is sheer determination that has thrust women ahead of men in the work marketplace. If women now have the advantage it is because they earned it. No standards were lowered to get women involved in education and careers. It was their attitude that changed (as a result of feminism) and many men resent women who are aggressive and determinded, and sexually free I might add (for relationships) Seems to me women have learned to compete while men are losing the desire to compete against them.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Tom…also…You are correct, of course, about the centrality of slavery to the Confederacy. This does not change the point that most of the men fighting, on both sides, believed they were sacrificing themselves for a cause that *they* believed was worthy. They certainly weren’t doing it for the pay.

  • Tom

    David,
    Propaganda was alive and well back then too. The men from the confederate states were told they were fighting for states rights, not actually defending slavery.99% of them never owned a slave.
    The men from the north were told they were fighting to preserve the union. They did not have it in their mind they were fighting to free the slaves. Our government is great at at half truths and total fabrication.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Aldonza,

    if you check that link i included:
    http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_258.asp
    you’ll see the 60/40 inequality of 1970 was pretty much corrected by 1980, a period of only 10 years. And it was corrected because the public at large thought it an urgent enough injustice to warrant corrective action.

    In the 30 years since then the inequality has literally reversed, til now it is 60/40 women to men. There is no reason for anyone to accept the one inequality & not the other, & no sense in just waiting to watch that gap keep on increasing for another 30 years.

    Patience is not what is required in this situation, though that is all feminists ever urge.

    Feminism is not now, nor has it ever been about equality.

  • Tom

    In the Olden Days, the home was usually a center of economic activity in which husband and wife *co-operated*, whether that economic activity was farming or spinning-weaving. The archtype of the 1950s cannot be accurately projected back in history.

    _________________________—
    If you are talking WAY back in almost primitive days of the 1700`s and 1800`s, men and women HAD to cooperate. Travel and communication were almost non existant back then. Then it made no sense for two people to work, life was completely different, even the work was different. Work back then was mainly labor intensive, more suited to a mans strength…..Jump to the 1900`s when communication and travel were made common place, the job market changed, families changes and roles began to change. Men no longer had to hunt for food, manually run a plow behind a plow horse. Jobs became easier and more plentiful. Rolls changed out of necessity. Once womn became more socialised in the work place, they were never again going to be complacent in their old submissive rolls.

  • Tom

    Hollenlund
    Could it be women have raised the standards?

    You mean the average intellectual performance of American college students has risen in the past 50 years? LOL

    ________________________—
    They have raised th standard above men, is what any rational thinking person would have gathered from my comment. If women are below where the standard of where men WHERE, what dos that say about men now?

  • Aldonza

    @Byron

    you’ll see the 60/40 inequality of 1970 was pretty much corrected by 1980, a period of only 10 years. And it was corrected because the public at large thought it an urgent enough injustice to warrant corrective action.

    The correction that happened between 1970 and 1980 was the product of way more than just the single decade of change. You’re just looking at the tail end of a change in education stemming back to the beginning of organized post-secondary schooling going back hundreds of years. Women have been fighting for access to educational opportunities since way before 1970. It was only the 1970s when we began to see real changes in educational access for women.

    The problem of more men than women in higher education is just being noticed now. You don’t change something that has origins in a hundred different micro-variables overnight.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Tom…again, you are largely correct about the specifics (although if you read Civil War letters and memoirs, you will find a significant % of Union troops DID believe they were fighting to end slavery) but this is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of men have been willing to endure great sacrifice for causes they believed greater than themselves.

    “OUR government is great at at half truths and total fabrication” (emphasis added)….as opposed to what other government? Imperial Japan? Hohenzollern Germany? Czarist Russia? Great Britain? The European Union? Do you honestly think OUR government is uniquely guilty of nefariousness? Do you agree with Michelle Obama that America is a “just plain mean country”?

  • Aldonza

    @david foster

    The archtype of the 1950s cannot be accurately projected back in history.

    Heck, the archetype of the 1950s can’t even be projected to the 1950s, except for a fairly narrow segment of society in the US.

    I highly recommend this book: The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap. It was quite illuminating.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    The problem of more men than women in higher education is just being noticed now.

    And yet it’s been a problem for over 25 years. With all we have learnt the past hundred years, why is that?

    You don’t change something that has origins in a hundred different micro-variables overnight.

    No, instead we do nothing.

  • jess

    “The idea of an American woman moving to Beijing, with a far lower quality of life (extreme pollution, lack of modern plumbing), setting up house and looking for a Chinese boyfriend is laughable, and you know it.”- Susan
    .
    Absolutely- and they wouldn’t like their tiny little willies either would they Susan?
    .
    .
    .
    IJOC

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Absolutely- and they wouldn’t like their tiny little willies either would they Susan?

      Rude.

  • michel

    What’s also amusing is that while the stereotype about women being attracted to subjects like English and literature, of having a flair for letters, so to speak still abounds, the quality of both journalism and literature itself has absolutely plummeted since women began large-scale entry into tertiary education (many of today’s women punctuate worse, conjugate sloppier and argue with less objectivity than their peers in the relatively recent past). I refer here to both B. R. Myers’ polemic on modern lit and Udolpho.com’s review of his work — both make the convincing case that, and here I won’t mince words, women are ruining both journalism and the English language through its rapid decay into meaningless vitriol, emotional bubbling and myopic blogging.

    I again must ask: if our women are now more educated than ever, where are the results? Where are the great women writers, scientists and artists?

  • michel

    I have, over the years, been at odds with feminism on many issues

    Where? Which issues? Your quote was extremely vague, and your links even more so: you support a “male studies” class; well, that’s dandy, but is apposite vitriol really what any of us need? You’re still pushing femme boosterism as concerns college (your position is apparently that not enough men are going to even it out, ignoring the massive problems such an approach would inherit), you foster casual sex with an eye towards maximizing a girl’s sexual pleasure (at the unconsidered expense of the men in question), you don’t seem to have any position whatsoever on how to bring back a sane marriage into the First World…

    Exactly how have you been critical of “sex-positive feminism”? In what way? Your whole blog is about “hook ups”, or vague “long term relationships” (I can tell you’re itching to say this), right?

    People are “calling [you] out for what [you] don’t say” because you supposedly profess interest in the cause of humanity rather than just women, and you make lofty pronouncements about what your intentions are in writing this blog. No one would be in the least surprised if you flat-out stated you’re a relationship blogger interested in getting women husbands, or even that you’re only bothered about tricks for making young women feel sexually satisfied. None of that is new, we can take it on the nose, it’s just whatever. But why pretend you’re something you’re not?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @michel
      You are my guest here. If you’re rude I’ll ask you to pick up your marbles and go home.

      I have, over the years, been at odds with feminism on many issues

      Where? Which issues? Your quote was extremely vague, and your links even more so…You’re still pushing femme boosterism as concerns college (your position is apparently that not enough men are going to even it out, ignoring the massive problems such an approach would inherit), you foster casual sex with an eye towards maximizing a girl’s sexual pleasure (at the unconsidered expense of the men in question), you don’t seem to have any position whatsoever on how to bring back a sane marriage into the First World…

      According to my records, your first comment ever here was left yesterday. How long have you been reading my site michel? Because your ignorance, combined with your aggression, makes you a fool. I have written nearly 500 posts and accumulated 40,000 comments here. Read them and speak intelligently or shut up.

      No one would be in the least surprised if you flat-out stated you’re a relationship blogger interested in getting women husbands, or even that you’re only bothered about tricks for making young women feel sexually satisfied.

      I don’t even write about marriage per se. I simply acknowledge that it’s the goal of 95% of young women.

      Bothered about tricks, what? You are a blathering idiot. You owe me an apology or get lost.

  • Tom

    David
    “OUR government is great at at half truths and total fabrication” (emphasis added)….as opposed to what other government? Imperial Japan? Hohenzollern Germany? Czarist Russia? Great Britain? The European Union? Do you honestly think OUR government is uniquely guilty of nefariousness? Do you agree with Michelle Obama that America is a “just plain mean country”?

    __________________________
    No. Our govenment is just as guilty of lying to its people as those you listed. We lied to go to war in more than one case, as did Nazi Germany under Hitler. We have now preempted attacks unprovoked, and lied to our people as to what the reasons were.We are guilty of falseflags also.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Aldonza…”Heck, the archetype of the 1950s can’t even be projected to the 1950s, except for a fairly narrow segment of society in the US”…Indeed–actually, that’s why I referred to “the archetype of the 1950s” rather than just “the 1950s.”

    Also, I suspect the meme that women prior to the modern era were “just laying there and hoping he`d cum soon so she could go to sleep” could use some challenging and some research. Undoubtedly, the absence of reliable contraception, coupled with the serious dangers of pregnancy prior to modern medicine, could frequently act as inhibitors to sexual enjoyment–but the biochemistry of humans hasn’t changed, and I bet that back in the Olden Days there were a fair number of women enjoying sex on a regular basis.

  • Wanderer

    I’d like to think this is satire, but I fear you are in earnest.

    My apologies if I offended you. This is essentially what many MRAs do believe, however, and if I recall correctly, it is essentially what Hollenhund believes. I am using those as my starting assumptions in order to argue against the points he seems to be making–i.e if women really are stupid and less evolved, condemning them for acting only in mercenary self-interest, as Hollenhund seems to be doing, is pointless because they can’t be held “responsible” for anything–the only thing they’re capable of is following their instincts, which means condemning them for it is less efficacious than exploiting those instincts for the interests of men.

    For what it’s worth, I’m not sure whether I believe all that, but the experiences I’ve had–and I’m sure many of the men here can sympathize, at least somewhat–have, unhappily, made me unable to condemn it outright.

  • namae nanka

    “Women have been fighting for access to educational opportunities since way before 1970. It was only the 1970s when we began to see real changes in educational access for women.”

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0724/p08s01-comv.html

    ” if our women are now more educated than ever, where are the results?”

    Look at the doctor shortage.

    “Where are the great women writers, scientists and artists?”

    Twilight!! you sexist!! and now they have to work too, so it’s harder.

    “Obviously women are now more driven because they know to get the jobs, they MUST out perform men. The imbalance is the fault of men, not thee ambition of women. Like I said, women have raised the bar, men have to put down the Playstation and get back to business….”

    Men have had enough of jumping through loops for women who don’t deserve it.
    They might have raised the bar for men, but by standing on men’s achievements and calling it progress. The stupidity is overwhelming.

  • namae nanka

    as vox has written about how the lower class women(about 30%) had to work before the good ole’ feminism broke the barriers??,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do5zrdTb-yI

    the end result is a deluded group of women thinking they are better off than the women before them.

    a perusal of Betty Friedan’s history would be enlightening as well.

  • namae nanka

    “Are feminists happier than 40 years ago? well of course! Surely nobody would argue women should lose the vote or not be able to stand for election.”

    I would argue even the former. Not the majority, but quite a few feminists aren’t happy the way things have gone. One of the reasons is the inane blathering like this:

    “Putting aside your hopeless insults and possible trolldom, the sources I have seen suggest that whilst stoning of both sexes exist there are no prizes for guessing which gender gets it the most, and by a large margin.
    .
    Amnesty international have some figures if you are interested.”

    Which gender gets it the most? How about which gender stands out when you compare individual brilliance? Feminism these days sounds much like the rantings of frustrated women who since can’t match men individually, want women to “win” in the collective.
    Maths gap, wage gap, glass ceilings – awesome examples of feminist academia.
    Add spurious feminist studies, the great contributions to the field of psychology and we have so much to clap for.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Anon,

    although i take your & hollenhund’s point that women generally seem to focus on helping men only when it can be shown to benefit themselves personally, i have to say, I’ve been reading this blog for some time now & have read Susan Walsh criticize feminism – especially sex-positive feminism – many times, plus you seem to have misunderstood her stance on hook-up culture. (Please reread her blog description.)

    i’m a man & an antifeminist & still feel this site is the best dialogue between male & female concerns I’ve yet found, I think you could be finding targets an awful lot worthier..
    :)

  • Tom

    david
    Undoubtedly, the absence of reliable contraception, coupled with the serious dangers of pregnancy prior to modern medicine, could frequently act as inhibitors to sexual enjoyment–but the biochemistry of humans hasn’t changed, and I bet that back in the Olden Days there were a fair number of women enjoying sex on a regular basis.
    ________________
    I agree. I am quite sure there were women who enjoyed sex. However I am also quit sure most mens attitude was to get on..get off.( Many still think that way…lol) Remember, “only bad girls actually like sex” was the norm of the day back then. I think many men have feminism all wrong.. Many men see feminism as surpassing men and holding men back. In reality the majority think it is just about becoming equal. However to become equal, undoubtedly some mens toes and mens “advantages” will be stepped on in the proceess.
    Title 9 comes to mind.Title 9 insures girls and boys have equal rights to the amount of sports played and the facilities are equal at any given school. My fellow fathers who had boys, screamed bloody murder when “equality” set in. Why? Because some of the advantages boys enjoyed were cut to make room for girls sports. I guess they didnt like boys badmitten being cut so girls could play fastpitch softball. I agree, in some cases boys were hurt in the process, but not as badly as the girls being denied access to sports for over 100 years. That old myth that girls are demure and boys are active has been put to rest.. ( the excuse why boys had sports and girls did not) LOL Step into the batters box against my daughter who pitched fastpitch in college and I`ll show you demure…

  • namae nanka

    “It is not womens fault they are out performing men.”

    Indeed, it’s their ingenuity. What most men don’t ask is, why?

    “Obviously women are now more driven because they know to get the jobs, they MUST out perform men.”

    And hence the addition of the writing section on SAT was explained. The rest of the test being utterly discriminatory against the fair sex.

  • namae nanka

    “Title 9 insures girls and boys have equal rights to the amount of sports played and the facilities are equal at any given school. ”

    Colleges. And the law was about education.

    http://savingsports.blogspot.com/2011/02/college-sports-council-urges-high.html

    “That old myth that girls are demure and boys are active has been put to rest.. Step into the batters box against my daughter who pitched fastpitch in college and I`ll show you demure…”

    ….

  • namae nanka

    “My fellow fathers who had boys, screamed bloody murder when “equality” set in. Why? Because some of the advantages boys enjoyed were cut to make room for girls sports.”

    http://savingsports.blogspot.com/search?q=odds

    how about mix the sports for genders?

  • namae nanka

    “for genders”

    whoops, I mean sexes.

  • Tom

    Nanka,
    You just dont get it do you?
    How many Einstein`s, Henry david Thoreau`s, Thomas Edisons would there have been had women had the same outlet to education and creative thinking men have always enjoyed?

  • michel

    The advantage of having a dog for company lies in the fact that it is possible to make him happy; he demands such simple things, his ego is so limited. Possibly, in a previous era, women found themselves in a comparable situation–similar to that of domestic animals. Undoubtedly there used to be a form of demotic happiness, connected to the functioning of the whole, which we are no longer able to understand; there was undoubtedly the pleasure of constituting a functional organism, one that was adequate, conceived with the purpose of accomplishing a discrete series of tasks–and these tasks, through repetition, constituted a discrete series of days. All that has disappeared, along with the series of tasks; we no longer really have any specific objective; the joys of humans remain unknowable to us, inversely, we cannot be torn apart by their sorrows. Our nights are no longer shaken by terror or by ecstasy. We live, however; we go through life, without joy and without mystery; time seems brief to us.

  • namae nanka

    “How many Einstein`s, Henry david Thoreau`s, Thomas Edisons would there have been had women had the same outlet to education and creative thinking men have always enjoyed?”

    lmao you are clueless, just clueless.
    Feminism and its dichotomy of gender and sex, which then means that ‘women’ should get “equal” opportunities, but goes on to lavish it on ‘females’ and after 30 years of inane chattering and stupid proclamations of how “women will rule the world one day” finds out that the women who managed to succeed are actually more like *gasp* men!!

    Thus it’s not women who are the problem, it’s the patriarchy embedded in the institutions themselves. Which then means that such institutions must themselves change…
    Stupidity or ingenuity? You decide.

    Meanwhile the useful idiots chant ” equality” “equality” while everything comes tumbling down. Oh well..

  • michel

    How many Einstein`s, Henry david Thoreau`s, Thomas Edisons would there have been had women had the same outlet to education and creative thinking men have always enjoyed?

    Most male inventors in history had little if any educational advantage over women (remember that compulsory education only started in Massachusetts in the late 1880s). Edison famously had a total of three months schooling in his entire life; Stephenson, none (he was the second son of an illiterate coal-miner) and Einstein was spotty at best. Conversely, female aristocrats and merchants’ daughters were often extremely well-read: Maria Theresa comes to mind, as does Rosa Luxemburg, Hedwig Dransfeld, etc.

    This trend of painting the past as one where women were stubbornly denied education is both myopic and incorrect. Moreover, men of far more meager means have amounted to incredible scientific advances; what is woman’s excuse?

  • namae nanka

    “How many Einstein`s”

    He wasn’t in academia when he published his groundbreaking paper…

    “The journal Annalen der Physik published five papers by an academically unaffiliated patent clerk named Albert Einstein”

    That’s why dude, you and the like are clueless.

  • namae nanka

    “This trend of painting the past as one where women were stubbornly denied education is both myopic and incorrect. ”

    as it the stereotype that all women had to overcome overwhelming patriarchal oppression to shine.
    Examples like Curie’s husband being instrumental in getting her her first nobel, or Noether’s father,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether

    The point is much more about women lagging behind men in any new field/endeavor. Consider video games, not merely the fan base but programming and the like. Voices are already being raised at how it lacks female base, “we need moar equality” “down with sexism and big boobs”. Maybe it would become female dominated in the next decade, or female-centric genres will become the majority. Was patriarchal oppression the cause here, or is the reality that the matriarchal oppression of boys who just wanted to play one more game defines it?

    The problem is the cries of “discrimination” followed by disingenuous studies and finally government legislation to stamp out any such “discrimination”.
    Those who now consider the propaganda of church as harmful, somehow believe that their children shouldn’t/wouldn’t rebel against the brainwashing that they receive from schooling and against their own clueless parents?
    Just like putting down women can’t work when men are fathers of daughters, this cycle will also go around when reality hits home.

  • Tom

    Most male inventors in history had little if any educational advantage over women (remember that compulsory education only started in Massachusetts in the late 1880s). Edison famously had a total of three months schooling in his entire life; Stephenson, none (he was the second son of an illiterate coal-miner) and Einstein was spotty at best. Conversely, female aristocrats and merchants’ daughters were often extremely well-read: Maria Theresa comes to mind, as does Rosa Luxemburg, Hedwig Dransfeld, etc.

    This trend of painting the past as one where women were stubbornly denied education is both myopic and incorrect. Moreover, men of far more meager means have amounted to incredible scientific advances; what is woman’s excuse?

    _________________________
    Mike and Nanka,
    I bet einstein and the like were not being told their total worth was to become a parent and raise children either…Many people are products of their environment. How many brilliant slaves were there that never got the oppertunity to shine? What you guys dont get is women have been treated as second class people for alonggg time. Denied oppertunity at evey turn.

  • Tom

    lmao you are clueless, just clueless.
    Feminism and its dichotomy of gender and sex, which then means that ‘women’ should get “equal” opportunities, but goes on to lavish it on ‘females’ and after 30 years of inane chattering and stupid proclamations of how “women will rule the world one day” finds out that the women who managed to succeed are actually more like *gasp* men!!

    _____________________
    IM clueless?……Just look at our own economy, the state of the world, all the wars. All run by men. Not normal men, ego maniac alpha men. Power hungry, ruthless men….Hell my daughter could do a better job….At least she is not a sheeple, willing to believe all the BS our govenment spews.

  • Tom

    Nane,
    Im not saying title 9 is perfect, however it does ensure men will not have total say over women and the sports they love

    http://savingsports.blogspot.com/search?q=odds

  • michel

    I bet einstein and the like were not being told their total worth was to become a parent and raise children either…Many people are products of their environment. How many brilliant slaves were there that never got the oppertunity to shine? What you guys dont get is women have been treated as second class people for alonggg time. Denied oppertunity at evey turn.

    You didn’t answer my question. No one expected Lincoln would become president (or even pass the Bar for the matter), no one expected Stephenson to do anything other than farm turnips or work in a colliery. The door has always swung both ways, and yet these men didn’t let weak excuses like “peer pressure” prevent them from achieving their goals. If women can’t break through the same obstacles, is there really so much potential being squandered there in the first place? Are we really missing anything?

  • Tom
  • SayWhaat

    @ Susan:

    Did you notice that Sheryl Sandberg says at one point that her daughter is two, and at another that her daughter is three? IMO, that negates her entire speech. She is not spending much time parenting.

    My own parents forget whether I’m 21 or 22 sometimes. And yet they are frustratingly determined to be omnipresent in my life. Hover-tiger parents are the worst.

  • namae nanka

    “I bet einstein and the like were not being told their total worth was to become a parent and raise children either…”

    or they were deemed worthless for such cause given their pathetic incomes and social status?

    “Many people are products of their environment.”

    I think we all are.

    “What you guys dont get is women have been treated as second class people for alonggg time.”

    Have you heard of women being castrated to serve as slaves?

    “Denied oppertunity at evey turn.”

    I can agree that in cases such as Mozart’s sister, today’s environment would have made a difference in her outcome. What I fail to understand is how can we believe that it wouldn’t have changed her brother’s destiny as well?

    Women can only get opportunities when men create it for them. Women can do anything that men do when a men show them how to.
    What I fail to understand it how then women can turn around and instead of thanking their men believe in the lies of women who are more probably driven by vengeance and personal vendetta?
    Actually, I do. And the reasons aren’t pretty.

    Another period of female enlightenment in history-
    http://www.chinavoc.com/history/tang/women.htm

    “This is the women`s response to the above bias report”

    No, call it the feminist lesbian response. Equating feminists with women is the main reason why they are in such a quandary.

  • Tom

    Mike,
    You didn’t answer my question. No one expected Lincoln would become president (or even pass the Bar for the matter), no one expected Stephenson to do anything other than farm turnips or work in a colliery. The door has always swung both ways, and yet these men didn’t let weak excuses like “peer pressure” prevent them from achieving their goals. If women can’t break through the same obstacles, is there really so much potential being squandered there in the first place? Are we really missing anything?

    ___________________________-
    That would be like saying my daughter could never throw a no hitter on a mans team. Lincoln was at least allowed to try and thru perseverance he made it. Women were not allowed to even vote! or smoke, or drink or hold office.. If you are not allowed to do something it makes it THAT much tougher.
    Damn, how come we never had a black president in the1920`s ? by your logic, the black people just didnt try hard enough.. Just incredible…….

  • Mike C

    FWIW, I was watching the profile show on Facebook on CNBC, and Sandberg is considered an absolute rockstar in terms of operational profiency. She was brought in because the company was just a mess of chaos. She is very impressive based on what I saw for the few minutes they were talking to her.
    .
    It remains to be seen whether she can be a top elite high-powered executive and simultaneously a successful mother. Won’t find that one out for 15-20 years.
    .
    I could be wrong, but I don’t believe women can “have it all”. Something has to give, and if you maximize success in one area, something else falls through the cracks. I’m finding that out myself personally as I am juggling many balls, and it has negatively impacted a few parts of my life.
    .
    Susan, by all accounts, it sounds like you raised two kids to be good, solid adults. Do you think that would have been just as possible if you had stayed on the elite consulting fast track and tried to get to the top of the ladder there?

  • Tom

    nankaWomen can only get opportunities when men create it for them. Women can do anything that men do when a men show them how to.
    What I fail to understand it how then women can turn around and instead of thanking their men believe in the lies of women who are more probably driven by vengeance and personal vendetta?
    Actually, I do. And the reasons aren’t pretty.

    _________________________
    OMG! I am a man and even I cant believe you just wrote this. What country are you from? Iran? Iraq? Does your woman (if you have one) walk 3paces behind you?
    Talk about chauvinistic. DUDE women were oppressed by MEN for eons.

  • namae nanka

    “Women were not allowed to even vote!”

    now every 4 years they can fully enjoy their masochistic tendencies.

    “or smoke”

    well a quick google search found me this:

    http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/when-women-werent-allowed-to-smoke-in-public/

    and then smoking became hip and women outsmok..outshone the lowly males.
    Just like drinking became hip for women and women outnumbered men in hospital visits.

    Yay?

  • namae nanka

  • Stephenie Rowling

    In other words, women find it rather difficult to muster up any sympathy for men.

    In other words masses need concrete goals and needs unfulfilled before being able to understand the abstracts and noble ideals. Even the French Revolution was supported by the masses because people were starving.

    The funny thing is that many men simply don’t think in such selfish ways. Many men have supported feminists throughout history because they genuinely cared about women’s lot and believed that giving them equal rights will be a good idea in itself.

    Don’t fool yourself many men admitted that the reason they marched for feminists rights was to get laid the reason they are not supporting feminism anymore is because they are not getting laid like they promised, the father rights are secondary or ignored by the ones that don’t plan on ever becoming fathers, heck look at our good friend Brendan quitting blogging to take care of himself understanding that men will never join together against punani and how everyone in the manosphere agrees with him, the noble ideals are secondary to the supply of punani for men. No gender is innately pure and noble, there has to be some concrete reason to listen and then the brain can assimilate the noble part, like Athol says the body evolved the brain as an aid for survival not the other way around.

    I’m pretty darn happy. I wouldn’t want to go back 40 years, 30, 20, or even 10 years.

    Mmmm How do *you* define happiness?

    “How many Einstein`s, Henry david Thoreau`s, Thomas Edisons would there have been had women had the same outlet to education and creative thinking men have always enjoyed?”

    Madam Curie, Emily Dickinson, Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, one of my favorites Madame d’Aulnoy, Lillian Moller Gilbreth (inventor, author, industrial engineer, industrial psychologist, and mother of twelve children) and countless others, all of them notable women before feminist movement will like to have a word with you. Some research please will be very welcome in this debates.

  • Tom

    nano,

    Arundhati Roy, Maya Angelou, Camille Paglia, Toni Morrison, Wangari Maathai, Nadine Gordimer, Meredith Monk, Nina Simone, Sylvia Plath…
    All brilliant female geniuses.. You think they had better opprtunities than most womenfrom way back when?
    Or are women geniuses just arecent phenomina?

  • SayWhaat

    If women can’t break through the same obstacles, is there really so much potential being squandered there in the first place? Are we really missing anything?

    You are missing the fact that people need support and mentoring from those already somewhat established in their field. Med student Max Talmud guided Albert Einstein through his educational interests. Franklin Leonard Pope, another inventor, allowed Edison to live and work in his basement. Would an Alberta or a Thomasina be afforded the same support and mentoring to achieve their breakthroughs in those times?

    And for those wondering why there are “no great female artists”, Professor Linda Nochlin answers this question here:

    http://www.bakeru.edu/faculty/adaugherty/wc/module5/artists.html

    But I doubt anyone will take the time to read it, so conclusion here:

    I have tried to deal with one of the perennial questions used to challenge women’s demand for true, rather than token, equality, by examining the whole erroneous intellectual substructure upon which the question “Why have there been no great women artists?” is based; by questioning the validity of the formulation of so-called problems in general and the “problem” of women specifically; and then, by probing some of the limitations of the discipline of art history itself. By stressing the institutional–that is, the public–rather than the individual, or private, preconditions for achievement or the lack of it in the arts,I have tried to provide paradigm for the investigation of other area in the field. By examining in some detail a single instance of deprivation or disadvantage–the unavailability of nude models to women art students-I have suggested that it was indeed institutionally made impossible for women to achieve artistic excellence, or success, on the samr footing as men, no matter what the potency of their so called talent or genius. The existence of a tiny band of successful, if not great, women artists throughout history does nothing to gainsay this fact, any more than does the existence of a few superstars or token achievers among the members of any minority groups. And while great achievement is rare and difficult at best, it is still rare and more difficult if, while you work, you must at the same time wrestle with inner demons of self-doubt and. guilt and outer monsters of ridicule or patronizing encouragement, neither of which have any specific connection with the quality of the art work as such.

    What is important is that women face up to the reality of their history and of their present situation, without making excuses or puffing mediocrity. Disadvantage may indeed be an excuse; it is not, however, an intellectual position. Rather, using as a vantage point their situation as underdogs in the realm of grandeur, and outsiders in that ideology, women can reveal institutional and intellectual weaknesses in general, and at the same time that they destroy false consciousness, take part in the creation of institutions in which clear thought–and true greatness–are challenges open to anyone, man or woman, courageous enough to take the necessary risk, the leap into the unknown.

    Finally, if you REALLY want to figure out whether or not women could have surpassed the same obstacles, the most analogous situation would be to look at patriarchal societies in developing nations today. Girls and boys alike are born into squalid conditions, and yet when it comes to education, boys are favored for their more measurable worth. Child brides are just one horrifying example of this practice – even if there are boys and girls lucky enough to receive some amount of education, the girls are still forced to cut their schooling short in order to become someone else’s wife.

    Do you really think that given the same environment and the same levels of education, a girl would have the same opportunity to defy convention as a boy in such a society?

  • SayWhaat

    Gahh blockquote effed up. -__-

  • namae nanka

    “OMG! I am a man and even I cant believe you just wrote this. What country are you from? Iran? Iraq? Does your woman (if you have one) walk 3paces behind you?”

    India. My mother has worked at a good job before I was born. My patriarch of a father has been working all around the country for a few years more than her, even in bandit-infested regions, and I am surely not interested in following in his footsteps. I am not that great of a guy.
    Even with such a personal example, and examples of friends and acquaintances around me, I thought feminism was a good cause.
    But not for people like us, my sister being as clueless at house-work as her brother.
    But for people in the lower classes where I thought such “oppression” occurs.

    Only I didn’t get why I should care for educating a girl so that she can prevent herself from becoming a prostitute, and not care about her father getting a job so that she doesn’t have to face that fate in the first place?

    And considering that many prostis do have degrees in the developed countries, the point becomes even more irrelevant.

    And my sister didn’t take up maths even though her (falsely) enlightened brother tried his best to get her do so. The obstinate mutt.

    “Talk about chauvinistic. DUDE women were oppressed by MEN for eons.”

    Umm even feminists believe in some stupid matriarchy before the religions bound women up. So I don’t get what you are complaining of, considering that even during the “patriarchal” time there have been periods where women enjoyed many freedoms. (like the one I posted before)

    “All brilliant female geniuses.. ”

    haha? or I am supposed to make a distinction for ‘female’?

  • Tom

    Steph..
    Gee I must have never heard of them, you mean there were smart women way back then?
    You made my point.. There have always been brilliantwomen, but most of them were stiffeeled by “mens rules”
    Why dont you read entire conversations before you put your foot in your mouth.

  • SayWhaat

    [img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/marie_curie.png[/img]

  • Tom

    steph, so men only supported women in the “movement” so they could get laid????
    OMG what a cynical web we weave.
    Is your baby crying or a bed needs to be made?

  • Mike C

    Somewhat connected to the topic of this post in terms of stagnation and the future (actually the article was in one of my daily investment e-mails):
    .
    http://www.thetradingreport.com/2011/06/09/18-signs-the-collapse-of-society-is-accelerating/
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janet-tavakoli/third-world-america-2011_b_873200.html#ixzz1OivWFpEw

    IMO, there are some very serious economic issues that unfortunately most don’t get. I think the male-female side of it is actually pretty small compared to some other issues (debt overhang, income distribution-Gini coefficient, job creation).
    .
    One thing I do find interesting is during the Great Depression you didn’t have any lawlessness or crime problems and the times were MUCH WORSE than now, and the only thing that makes sense is cultural norms, and more people of solid character. In contrast, now, I think you can say then many people have been raised not as solid citizens but really basically like animals with no ethical base whatsoever. I think feminism bears some responsibility for that to the extent that it downplayed the importance of the 2-parent nuclear family to raise solid citizens.

  • Tom

    Susan you think “gender prefrence careers” might have something to do with women not “wanting” to be structural engineers?
    A lot more female nurses than male nurses…just saying.

  • namae nanka

    “You are missing the fact that people need support and mentoring from those already somewhat established in their field. Med student Max Talmud guided Albert Einstein through his educational interests”

    And so why is it that feminists shut down men’s mentoring decrying it as misogynist? (it was in some university, can’t find the link now).

    “And while great achievement is rare and difficult at best, it is still rare and more difficult if, while you work, you must at the same time wrestle with inner demons of self-doubt and. guilt and outer monsters of ridicule or patronizing encouragement, neither of which have any specific connection with the quality of the art work as such.”

    http://www.theabsolute.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=75983#p75988

    why should men pave the way for women to succeed if they will still be blamed for all and sundry?

    and SayWhaat

    read that thread. Also what has this got to do with title ix or trying to get sexual equality in different fields or meticulously finding out a few percentage points difference in incomes?
    Oh my, there aren’t enough women around me, me no do science?

  • namae nanka

    and the amazing fact that after curie and her daughter there have been no female physics nobel prize winners. So apparently the sexism got so bad that…wait my puny male brain can’t comprehend the sexism that would have been required for such great legally correct barrier against women.

  • Blues

    Well, one thing is for sure, after seeing the reaction of most female commenters to the article (save a couple of exceptions) i can safely say that the American society is pretty much on it’s way to the abyss.

    If women that are aware of the manosphere and Game still cling to and rationalize whatever good point feminism had when it was conceived to justify the current mysandrist radical version of today, imagine what your average unaware pro-feminism (not radfem mind you) woman would say/do?.

    Not doing anything has even worse consequences than supporting the extremists, start opening your eyes ladies.

  • namae nanka

    and no mention of Noether’s father? How about Ramanujan? xkcd isn’t the truth, it’s readership might have different ideas.
    I am all for same-sex schools, might not be the best thing, but surely much more practical and applicable.

  • Pingback: Game’tardation: Why Are There No Great Women Artists (etc)? « How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Gee I must have never heard of them, you mean there were smart women way back then?
    You made my point.. There have always been brilliantwomen, but most of them were stiffeeled by “mens rules”

    I know this women since I was a little girl if you never heard of it is because you are an ignorant. The spearhead has a ton of women like this ones and they are the antifeminists ones.

    steph, so men only supported women in the “movement” so they could get laid????

    Like the French supported the Revolution so they could eat.

  • SayWhaat

    Also what has this got to do with title ix or trying to get sexual equality in different fields or meticulously finding out a few percentage points difference in incomes?

    I was addressing the assertion that there weren’t great female scientists/artists/etc. Admittedly it’s a bit tangential, but then, I’m not the one who started it.

  • namae nanka

    http://antimisandry.com/facts-figures/men-were-treated-worse-than-women-throughout-history-15203.html

    “I was addressing the assertion that there weren’t great female scientists/artists/etc.”

    then only much surplus wealth and good demographics give you the option to try and get more of them from the pool that has not produced them at the same rate as the other pool.
    What you have is trying to beat down your better horse, make it limp to show that it’s not as good as the slower horse and then trying to bet more on latter thinking that telling that it can run much faster will make it fly.
    It’s mindbogglingly stupid.

    If children make for lesser female geniuses, then there should be even fewer in the coming decades. Hopefully that is a lesser price to pay.

  • SayWhaat

    If women that are aware of the manosphere and Game still cling to and rationalize whatever good point feminism had when it was conceived to justify the current mysandrist radical version of today, imagine what your average unaware pro-feminism (not radfem mind you) woman would say/do?

    A lot of the reactions on this thread have been in response to sexism (accusations that women are inferior to men in whatever capacity). These accusations do nothing to make women more sympathetic to claims of misandry.

    I’m in favor of making changes to benefit men (education reform would be a good start), but if you want women to listen you’re gonna have to do it in a way that’s less hostile.

  • michel

    I apologize if this comes across as uncouth, but that argument, again, strikes me as so much whining, and, again, it suffers from tunnel vision even if we take its precepts for granted.

    Do you really think that given the same environment and the same levels of education, a girl would have the same opportunity to defy convention as a boy in such a society?

    Which boy? Again, plenty of women have lived lives of far greater luxury than men — it’s even arguable that they’ve had better opportunities, because domicile tasks are far less strenuous than farm labor and serf duties.

    Some parts of that article are quite amusing, such as the hypothesis that women painters suffered because they couldn’t look at naked men as often:

    I have gone into the question of the availability of the nude model [...]

    … but others are simply wrong, grievously wrong, and, I stress once more, tunnel-visioned:

    One could equally well examine other other dimensions of the situation [against women], such as the apprencticeship system, the academic educational pattern which, in France especially, was almost the only key to success and which had a regular progression and set competitions, crowned by the Prix de Rome which enabled the young winner to work in the French Academy in that city–unthinkable for women, of course [...]

    This is simply wrong-headed: the Prix de Rome was a prize given to distinguished artists, not some sort of quasi-training course. Hector Berlioz, perhaps the greatest composer of all time, was born to a provincial doctor, never studied music at school and had no tutor whatsoever; his parents discouraged his attempts at music, the Conservatoire’s own director famously gave him the cold shoulder, and yet he went on to win the Prix (after five tries, no less). It’s not only myopic but insulting to imply that he was benefiting from some unseen leg-up.

    Incidentally, there have been some relatively great women performers (i.e. violinists): Clara Schumann, maybe Maud Powell. In my opinion this is telling.

    One has only to think of Delacroix, Courbet, Degas, van Gogh, and Toulouse-Lautrec as examples of great artists who gave up the distractions and obligations of family life, at least in part, so that they could pursue their artistic careers more singlemindedly. Yet none of them was automatically denied the pleasure of sex or companoinship [sic] on account of this choice.

    Van Gogh, the man who never married, who was spurned three times after falling into desperate limerances? And who’s to say some great woman would be “denied the pleasure of sex”, or companionship for that matter? How are we to know? From the scant historical accounts of ‘great’ women, men have been all too eager to fall in love with them: Rhodophis, Luxemburg, Portia. (Isn’t it a common male lament that they want women to equal them intellectually?)

    The essay’s treatment of the written arts is even worse: she consistently puts the cart before the horse, deploring the inability for women to find themselves in the conditions necessary to birthing a literary mind (basically the skewed, critical, mystical male ego), never remembering to ask what those conditions are. She quotes Sand approvingly (who I also hold in some esteem, and who also would’ve scoffed at the implication that she was hard done because of her womanhood) but absent-mindedly quotes a minor painter called Bonheur approvingly: “My father, that enthusiastic apostle of humanity, many times reiterated to me that woman’s mission was to elevate the human race, that she was the Messiah of future centuries [...]” This is narcissism, not art.

  • SayWhaat

    And until MRAs can scupper this widely-accepted notion that women have always been treated worse than men they will find it much more difficult to make any headway.

    Good luck with that.

  • namae nanka

    and feminism has made guys like me look these female geniuses up and find them to be mediocre if you try to line them up with men.
    Maxwell for instance is a much greater figure than Marie, and yet I never learned his history. It is disparaging to these women, and imho they themselves wouldn’t have liked such comparisons.
    But who knows, maybe after all these years of anti-discrimination, humans have probably changed that much that women can support the entire civilization on their small but sturdy shoulders(thanks title ix) and men can go back to playing xbox in peace.

  • michel

    By the way, spare me the crocodile tears about Marie Curie, Rosalind Franklin, etc. The usurping of rightful credit is by no means a pitfall exclusive to women: God knows how many male inventors have been stiffed of their proper due; Akroyd-Stuart (Diesel engine), Richard Pearse (first powered flight)… most acrimoniously, Nikola Tesla, who not only invented the radio (contrary to Marconi’s claim) but performed basically all of Edison’s work, invented everything of his (he was under Edison’s employ for a decade and Edison even refused to pay him afterwards), laid the groundwork for all modern electronics and died completely alone, a penniless virgin in a mangy New York hotel room. The only reason we know Edison today instead of Tesla is the same reason we know Watson instead of Franklin or whatever; because one of them was crueler, more smooth, a slicker salesman than the other. It has little if anything to do with sex.

    Science is not clean: it’s pure marketing, muscle and sociopathy.

  • namae nanka

    “A lot of the reactions on this thread have been in response to sexism (accusations that women are inferior to men in whatever capacity).”

    no they are merely knee-jerk reactions that have been instilled them by today’s society. Yes, the great society, the killer of many a woman’s talents, desires and yada yada.

    “but if you want women to listen you’re gonna have to do it in a way that’s less hostile.”

    Galileo could have done the same. Idiot that he was. Who cares if women want to listen it or not? Men could have waved reality away from women before, but how can they do that now?

    “Van Gogh, the man who never married, who was spurned three times after falling into desperate limerances?”

    lol maybe that’s what got him to work. Goethe’s history is a good example.

  • michel

    As an aside, I should put that I’m fond of Jane Austen, and I think she’s been a singular author on a very special avenue of human life. The irony is that she skewered the feminist sentiment — carried here on this blog, at least implicitly — towards mocking propriety, chastity, social customs, etc.; Mansfield Park captured this phenomenon of temptation towards sexual titillation and urban sophistication perfectly with the Crawfords trying to draw Fanny away from decorum. Agatha Christie is also an enjoyable and at times artistic writer, and I do have not a small measure of admiration for anyone who could write Poirot (superior to Holmes, in my opinion).

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Stephenie:

    many men admitted that the reason they marched for feminists rights was to get laid the reason they are not supporting feminism anymore is because they are not getting laid like they promised

    Have to say, in my own experience – & practically everyone i have known in my adult life, male or female, would class themselves as supporters of feminism – the men i know who have stood up for women’s rights – myself included, in the past – have never expressed anything even remotely like that as their reasons for supporting it.

    But i’ve been hearing that argument quite a lot lately online & It does seem to be some sort of projection on the part of women onto the motives of men, thinking why & what they would do if they were in mens shoes.

    Biologically women are much more concerned with feathering the nest, as indeed they need to for the survival of themselves & their young. And so this is reflected in the political concerns of women as a group (social causes, votes for women only, prohibition etc), also of the art they make, which is much more often about the personal than the greater world. The private sphere – the tribe, society – has always been the female domain from way back to the hunter-gatherer period, & may well be the single greatest female invention.

    But the greater world, – the architecture of civilization, the concepts of democracy, freedom, justice, etc, the overseeing from a distance - has historically been the male role, which is why all the great political movements, philosophical, religious & technological advancements, have all been from men.
    And also why the only great contribution to politics & philosophy from women has been feminism, which is an inherently selfish movement, working only for the gains of women, while demonizing men.

    The best way i’ve found of explaining this difference is that men have an inbuilt drive to protect women the way women have an inbuilt drive to protect children, & their child in particular. All men i know demonstrate this every day, & indeed all gentlemanly conduct & chivalry is most likely descended from this imperative. Women have a very hard time visualizing this because they do not feel even remotely the same way about mankind (as a whole, rather than in the personal sphere).

    This idea, of the biological priorities of women being more selfish than mens & this carrying over into the rest of life, is a very new concept to me, & a lot to think on. I would love to see it more thoroughly looked into somewhere – perhaps Susan could consider a post on it?

    namae nanka:

    I LOVE the manwomanmyth videos, hadn’t seen that one for a long while, thanks for posting it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      This idea, of the biological priorities of women being more selfish than mens & this carrying over into the rest of life, is a very new concept to me, & a lot to think on. I would love to see it more thoroughly looked into somewhere – perhaps Susan could consider a post on it?

      Noted and clipped. Will think on this.

  • Tom

    Michel, one question for you…..

    Are women,in general as intelligent as men?

  • Tom

    @ steph,Gee I must have never heard of them, you mean there were smart women way back then?
    You made my point.. There have always been brilliantwomen, but most of them were stiffeeled by “mens rules”

    I know this women since I was a little girl if you never heard of it is because you are an ignorant. The spearhead has a ton of women like this ones and they are the antifeminists ones.

    steph, so men only supported women in the “movement” so they could get laid????

    Like the French supported the Revolution so they could eat.
    ___________________
    Steph I have a college degree, of course I have heard of those great women, my comment was tongue in cheek..
    LOL at your comparison

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Are women,in general as intelligent as men?

    Men have more radical peaks in both directions: more geniuses, more lost cause dumbasses. The women have less radical directions: more uniformity, less retards, less geniuses.

    Then men´s intelligence is analitical and women intelligence is relational – language, men are more structural and women are more holistical.

    And men tend to form hierarchies and see the big picture and women tend to form nets of connections and be self centered.

    So whats this “women as inteligent as men”? different animals, similar in a lot of aspects, but way different in a lot of other aspects.

    To attribute these differences to social pressure is stupid. The social differences got normalized, like happens with almost any other social norm. Everybody does what everybody does and everyone exceptional is “weird”

    So for the few genius females, I can sympathize they got an extra weird treatment. We should work so everyone has opportunities and wash a lot of social normalizing pressures.

    What Feminism is doing is adding EXTRA normalizing pressures = stupidiy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So for the few genius females, I can sympathize they got an extra weird treatment. We should work so everyone has opportunities and wash a lot of social normalizing pressures.

      There are just a few geniuses, relatively speaking, of either sex. I believe the data shows that the female mean IQ is two points lower than the male mean IQ. However, there are more men in the long tails, 2+ standard deviations from the mean. On both sides of the bell curve, as you say.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Rude.
    Heh I’m starting to think that Jess is a size queen enthusiast it seems penis size is her first though for everything.

    @michel
    I will say that Edison was a bastard all around, he also make a copy George Melies movie A trip to the moon and exhibited it in USA refusing to pay revenues to him, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melies

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Men have more radical peaks in both directions: more geniuses, more lost cause dumbasses. The women have less radical directions: more uniformity, less retards, less geniuses.

    Or, as Camille Paglia memorably put it: ‘The Reason there is no female Mozart is the same reason there is no female Jack The Ripper.’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Or, as Camille Paglia memorably put it: ‘The Reason there is no female Mozart is the same reason there is no female Jack The Ripper.’

      This is why I love Camille. She’s intellectually honest.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    there is no female Jack The Ripper.

    There have been some very, very dark & sinister female monsters in history that make JTR look like a fool

  • michel

    Are women,in general as intelligent as men?

    In general? Yes. My point isn’t really about women’s intelligence, which in my opinion isn’t markedly different on the mean to that of men’s. I think, rather, women elect not to use their intelligence as a choice; the evolutionary selection pressures are far, far more trivial, and for whatever reason, women rarely experience the kind of restless artistic ennui that cultivates poetry the same way men do. Perhaps it’s due to men’s much wider fields of interest, I don’t know.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    In general? Yes. My point isn’t really about women’s intelligence, which in my opinion isn’t markedly different on the mean to that of men’s. I think, rather, women elect not to use their intelligence as a choice; the evolutionary selection pressures are far, far more trivial, and for whatever reason, women rarely experience the kind of restless artistic ennui that cultivates poetry the same way men do. Perhaps it’s due to men’s much wider fields of interest, I don’t know.

    Poetry is the howl of the wolf.

    Men drive is about going where no one has been and finding a treasure. Womens drive is about protecting the treasure and keeping it healty.

    The ovule and the sperm.

    Men formulate theories and stuff and solve the problem of how to get there

    Women formulate theories and stuff to solve the problem of how to attract and keep the quality stuff.

    If we were all men no one would be keeping the civilization.

    If we were all women “civilization” would be something with “quotes”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami at 2:38

      Word. It’s the male and female energy complementing the other. Why would we want it any other way?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    There have been some very, very dark & sinister female monsters in history that make JTR look like a fool

    Indeed, but i think she was referring to that specifically obsessionate part of the male mind – quite possibly due to the thinner corpus callosum (the bridge between the left & right brains): Where womens left & right brains can speak to each other faster, probably accounting for that much-celebrated multitasking, men’s brains can focus more obsessionately on one thing, to the exclusion of all others, be that plans for a cathedral, a poem, a symphony, or an elaborate serial murder.

    Full quote:

    Serial or sex murder, like fetishism, is a perversion of male intelligence. It is a criminal abstraction, masculine in its deranged egotism and orderliness. It is the asocial equivalent of philosophy, mathematics, and music. There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper.

  • tito

    @Yohami

    your advice to collegeboy is right on. this is why chicks are wrecking civilization. their ability to manipulate must find no avenues and they must be free to suffer the consequences of their behavior without a safety net. otherwise all rights must be taken away. either way is fine. whatever works. civilization comes first!

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Byron,

    Ah, agree. Obsession is such a male thing, for better and worse, and all the insane intensity. Im guilty.

    My respects to Camille Paglia whoever she is, her quote makes sense.

    Actually, lets google her.

  • Tom

    and the amazing fact that after curie and her daughter there have been no female physics nobel prize winners. So apparently the sexism got so bad that…wait my puny male brain can’t comprehend the sexism that would have been required for such great legally correct barrier against women.

    __________________
    Nanka, with your attitude toward women, Im not so sure it is your brain that is puny….lol

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Paglia’s pretty damn cool, a feminist who was cast-out & reviled by pretty much all other feminists for having a mind of her own. I don’t agree with her on many things, i’m sure, but she has a far better mind than those of her critics, so she’s someone who’s opinion i like to hear, as it’s always her own.

    Here’s my favourite quote of hers:

    “Let us stop being small-minded about men and freely acknowledge what treasures their obsessiveness has poured into culture.We could make an epic catalog of male achievements, from paved roads, indoor plumbing, and washing machines to eyeglasses, antibiotics and disposable diapers. We enjoy fresh, safe milk and meat, and vegetables and tropical fruits heaped in snowbound cities. When I cross George Washington bridge or any of America’s great bridges, I think: men have done this. Construction is a sublime male poetry. When I see a giant crane passing on a flatbed truck, I pause in awe and reverence, as one would for a church procession. What power of conception, what grandiosity: these cranes tie us to ancient Egypt, where monumental architecture was first imagined and achieved. If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts. A contemporary woman clapping on a hard hat merely enters a conceptual system invented by men.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron
      You’ve just inspired me to go back and read everything CP has written.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Byron,

    After 10 min reading quotes and stuff from Paglia and pictures, I can tell I like her a lot. Too bad she´s a duke! why is that every time I find a female mind that attracts me, she happens to be a dangerous bisexual dark persona who looks like a dude? Shit.

    And what does it say about me? I must be the equivalent to these women who are attracted to girly men :-P

    Anyway. I like her a lot – too dark for me to interest me sexually though, which is a shame. She would make a fun friend to debate with.

  • Jess

    To steph and Susan, re rude and willies.
    .
    I can’t believe it’s taken so long for someone to pick me up on my moronic, gratuitous, racial slur.
    .
    I guess people saw it as the lame tease to Susan it was intended as.
    Susan was too savvy to bite- ah well.
    IJOC = I jest of course.

  • Wudang

    One key reason is that the teaching techniques have changed to favour girls instead of boys. Stuies show that when children are thaught to read with the techniques used up til about 1970 the boys actually learn to read better and faster than the girls and the girls learn to read better than they do today. England is changing its reading education because of this. In my own damn feminist country no one has ever written about this study in the papers despite it being revolutionary and people talking about the problem of boys lagging behind all the time.

    Here you can read about the study:

    http://www.synthetic-phonics.com/phonics75.html

    Beyond the style of teaching reading I am convinced the changed focus from rather militaristic strict disciplin in schools towards a style of teaching that focuses on motivating the students, making things exciting and working in groups and less focus on achievement and more on the intrinsic value of learning learning itself etc., all the changes in education that came from about 1970, are teaching methods that girls thrive on and boys suffer under. Boys naturally don`t sit still and focus for long so you have to make them. They enjoy competion and removing focus on achievemnt and competiotion as a value in itself demotivates boys. THe focus on working in groups has led to more boys than girls not doing anything and letting others in the group do the real work (this was always a pattern in my school experience).

    I intereperate this as a result of the dominance of female teachers and feminine and feminized men dominating in the fields of education and rese
    acrh on education. They developed teaching methods that suited themselves without understanding it did not suit masculine boys (and girls).

    A good example of a teaching method that works for boys I saw in a program about an english school that have made the boys catch up to the girls in ALL subjects. THe technique and theory is simple. Boys can focus very good (better than girls) for a short time and then they loose focus so what you do is figure out what that amount of time is and divide a class up in a bunch of blocks that are different enough to be interpereated by the boys brain as something new enough to warant a new round of attention. By doing that the girls did exactly the same as they did with other teaching methods and the boys did as well as the girls. THis was found not only in one class but in all classes in all grades in an entire school.

    The dominance of women in a boys upbringing from his first years a twome were the mother is the most present and dominating figure to kindergarden, and the later school were women dominate teaching means that they are raised in the way women see fit and made to see the world through feminine eyes. Women are not good at raising men. A typical example I experienced many times was female grownups constant atempts to remove competion from childhood (because they just don?t like it and want everything to be fluffy and nice and because women interested in educating children are more feminine than average thus dislikes competition). An extreme example I never experienced but only have read about is little league games were scoring is alowed butting keeping track of scoring is not aloowed so that no one looses. Boys grow in to men by learning to handle to compete in contexts were something REAL (to them) is at stakes. THat means there HAS to be something at stake that can be lost and which will feel shitty to loose but also great to win(honour). Without learning to handle such competiotion with stakes the male drive in life is thwarted and men grow up to be unmotivated pussies (betas).

    Men also thrive on (need really) to have a mission in life or at least many smaller missions (read David Deida). THey are motivated by clear goals they understand what will get them. When tehy aret old being a bread winner is not needed anymore and protecting women is not needed or even desired anymore men loose their mission in life. My grandfather worked for a decade or more to be able to marry my grandmother because he needed something to bring to the table.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang
      That’s a brilliant summary of how schools punish boys just for having a Y chromosome. Nearly all the standards, from learning styles, to behavior, to distractability, stack the deck against boys. I believe this lifetime of bias against boys explains why they are delaying maturity, not going to college, and generally lacking direction.

  • Tom

    Nanko
    and the amazing fact that after curie and her daughter there have been no female physics nobel prize winners. So apparently the sexism got so bad that…wait my puny male brain can’t comprehend the sexism that would have been required for such great legally correct barrier against women.

    __________________
    Nanka, with your attitude toward women, Im not so sure it is your brain that is puny….lol

    I mean have you ever actually had a relationship with a woman, or is all your nonsensical opinions learned from a book? Now, by a relationship I mean an actual relationship where ideas are exchanged, emotions flow,consessions are made, and respect is given?.. Not talking about just using a woman as a cum dumpster.Not just a sexual relationship

  • Wudang

    One thing that is going to change quite soon I think is boys motivation to get an education to get girls. Because women are now dominating higher education the focus on the scewed market condtion for educated people will become more aparent and so men will be more motivated to educate themselves because a man with an education will have far more options and will be apreaciated as a catch to some degree because there are too few of him and women will observe that couples were the man does not have an education but she does are not happy couples.

  • Jess

    Susan re education.
    .
    The excerpt below is from the guardian 2004 and based on gov dept figures.
    I have now given 3 perfectly reliable sources on this.
    If you wish to provide counter evidence the ball is in your court on this one.
    .
    “The research, carried out by the Girls’ Schools Association (GSA) – an umbrella group representing 200 private girls’ schools – suggested that bright girls were failing to take up science and maths in a co-educational environment because they were intimidated by boys who were often rowdy and liked to show off.

    The results of the survey of more than 5,000 pupils attending schools which belong to the GSA – whose annual conference opened yesterday in Staffordshire – inevitably focused on whether girls learn differently from boys, particularly at puberty, when both sexes experience very different hormonal and developmental changes.

    The GSA’s argument, in a nutshell, is that girls will always thrive academically in single sex classes. They have plenty of time to get to know boys outside the classroom and later in life.

    The research, based on new figures for the last academic year, revealed that the take-up of maths, science and modern languages was much stronger in girls’ independent schools than in schools nationally. At the same time, many of their leavers go on to choose a university course in engineering, maths or science – in stark contrast to the national shortage where numbers have plummeted among both sexes. The result has been the closure of an unprecedented number of university chemistry and language departments.

    In her opening speech to the conference, GSA president Cynthia Hall, head of the school of St Helen and St Katharine, Abingdon, said: “I am not surprised that more mathematicians, engineers, scientists and linguists are coming out of single-sex girls’ schools.

    “Girls are encouraged, in GSA schools, to tackle harder subjects and to be confident that they can do well in them.”

    The survey found over 90% more pupils attending girls’ schools chose physics or chemistry at A-level compared to all girls nationally.

    GSA members at the conference yesterday gave their personal perspective. Nicholas Beesley, head of Beechwood Sacred Heart school, said: “Having taught science and maths in co-ed schools for 16 years and in girls’ schools for 12 years, it is clear to me that girls do not take up these subjects in a co-ed environment because they are intimidated by the boys.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      I appreciate your effort to find good info. I have nothing against girls’ schools, as I’ve said. However, I would point out that your excerpt here again is from an association of girls’ schools. They are selling single sex education. An unbiased source would have to be neither the single sex schools, or the coed schools, but a think tank, or perhaps government funded study. In any case, a source with no dog in the fight.

  • Jess

    A 2002 National Foundation for Educational Research (NFER02) study indicated that in girls’ schools, pupils were less likely to follow stereotypical subject choices, and were more likely to opt for science and resistant materials at GCSE and less likely to take traditionally female options such as food technology, German and French
    NFER02 also noted that girls in single sex schools stood a much better chance of being entered for higher-tier papers in Maths and Science (up to 40% better chance in the case of science)
    NFER02 quote: Girls’ schools help to counter traditional stereotyping
    A 1998 OFSTED summary of research on gender and educational performance demonstrated that girls from single-sex schools were more likely to study maths or the physical sciences at A level than those from coeducational schools
    Research conducted by Andrew Stables in 1990 indicates that girls aged 13-14 in single sex schools are more likely to express an interest in maths and science than their peers in coeducational schools
    The take up of Medicine and Dentistry at University by GDST girls in 2004 was particularly strong at 10.86% compared to 2.6% of all girls nationally; and the percentage of GDST girls taking Physical Sciences remains above the national figure. This was particularly marked that year as a result of an increase in the take up by GDST girls compared to a fall in take up by girls nationally.
    A study by the Institute of Education using 1958 and 1970 cohort data showed that ‘going co-educational’ did not provide both sexes with access to a wide range of subject areas – 21% of girls and 10% of boys in 1974 claimed never to have studied science, and 26% and 25% never to have studied art.
    At A-Level, 40 per cent of GDST girls who sit a science subject get an A in that subject.
    The ATL refers to evidence that pupils in single-sex schools enable both boys and girls to develop broader, less gender-stereotypical subject preferences and aspirations. However they conclude in a report that ‘Just as with the issue of achievement, cross-cutting factors (such as the type of school, the social characteristics of its intake and the age of the pupils) cloud the evidence about the effectiveness of single-sex schools in broadening pupils’ aspirations and subject preferences.’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      Yay, good link from the NFER02! Reading it, I’m struck by the differences between your education system and ours. Do British schools really still teach Food Technology? U.S. schools haven’t done that since the 70s.

      Also, I think the way you track kids for special talents and interests is very different there. Here every kid starts off college without having declared which subjects they will study. Most schools have requirements, and of course engineering schools have separate admissions, but an American kid can start college not having any idea whether they want to major in physics, French lit or econ.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Yodahami:

    I’ve always had a very good relationships with the women of the dykey persuasion – nice to be able to just chill out with women from time to time, & not to have all that sexual tension hanging over everything. Maybe i’m just a fag hag.

    Interesting too how a disproportionate number of the great female creative minds – the gertrude steins, virginia woolfs, sappho, jeanette winterson etc – have been lesbians. It may end up that those born lesbian have comparable levels of the high testosterone that shapes the male brain differently in the womb. Would be fascinating if that were the case, but too early to say for sure.

  • VI

    What you guys dont get is women have been treated as second class people for alonggg time.

    The average man was a third class citizen for most of our history.

    Who was forced to build the king’s palace? Who was forced to go to war to fight for the land the king wanted? Who was left to drown while women were put safely on lifeboats.?

    Sure, most first class citizens were men. The other 99% of men occupied the absolute bottom rung of the social ladder. So don’t give me this bullshit that women had it harder than men in the past.

    At no point in human history has the average woman had it harder than the average man.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Indeed, but i think she was referring to that specifically obsessionate part of the male mind – quite possibly due to the thinner corpus callosum (the bridge between the left & right brains):

    There are theories about this related to why Autism is more present in boys and Bipolar Disorders in girls. I think brain related science is probably one of the few scientific fields were the difference among genders is hard pressed to be proven just societal pressure. The scanners are gender neutral.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think brain related science is probably one of the few scientific fields were the difference among genders is hard pressed to be proven just societal pressure. The scanners are gender neutral.

      I can’t get enough of this stuff. Neuroscience, epi-genetics, it’s just so fascinating, and the science is moving so quickly! Many of our current beliefs will be overturned within our lifetimes. There will be good news, and other news that is sobering, even disturbing. But it will be knowledge.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    “Having taught science and maths in co-ed schools for 16 years and in girls’ schools for 12 years, it is clear to me that girls do not take up these subjects in a co-ed environment because they are intimidated by the boys.”

    Intimidated in what sense? are girls naturally cowards? are these boys criminals? Do these boys bully girls so they stay away from math? whats going on? really.

    I want data on that intimidation.

    The GSA’s argument, in a nutshell, is that girls will always thrive academically in single sex classes.

    If I was drinking coffee I would spill it. That girls WHAT? are you telling me that in single sex classes, all girls get a 10? if so we can solve so many problems right now just by enforcing single sex classes for everyone.

    These two quotes and I already know the “study” is biased.

    What about motivation? What do these girls do with the math and engineering skills when they graduate? how many of them produce inventions and stuff up to par with males? how many of them are biting the cookie and thriving academically because they know how to?

    In my experience women are way, way better at fitting to the academy system and getting rewards for their hard work within specific contexts: they please the academy.

    Then the real world comes (competition) and they crumble.

    Data! Im hungry.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    It may end up that those born lesbian have comparable levels of the high testosterone that shapes the male brain differently in the womb. Would be fascinating if that were the case, but too early to say for sure.

    According to my fingers lengths I was exposed to a lot of T in the womb, but I’m not lesbian. Of course I’m not brilliant either. But my point is that there had to be other factors working at it as well.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    According to my fingers lengths I was exposed to a lot of T in the womb, but I’m not lesbian. Of course I’m not brilliant either. But my point is that there had to be other factors working at it as well.

    Yes. Creativity is never going to be simply explained away by something you can measure in a blood test. I think the factors which shape us – biological & societal & perhaps other forces presently off the map are pretty much limitless, & the ones we presently know about & focus so much on are probably obscuring ones we don’t yet know exist.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    You’ve just inspired me to go back and read everything CP has written.

    She’s never really topped Sexual Personae, but there’s enough there to keep you going on a desert island for a month or two, & plenty of paper to light the fire, too.. :)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Wudang, that stuff was very, very good.

  • Rae

    Actually, from a evolutionary biological/psychological perspective, cuckoldry of men is the equivalent of the rape of a women. Both entail the procurement of the other’s reproductive resources against their wishes and to their detriment.

    I know I should just give up, but I’m bothered that nobody else has noticed how incredibly fucked up this is. It only makes sense if you think a woman’s sex organs are a “reproductive resource” that belongs to the man she’s partnered with. (I’m not sure it even makes sense then, since the bit about rape assumes, correctly, that a woman’s sex organs belong to the woman herself.) Or maybe the male “reproductive resource” is taking care of kids that might potentially result from cheating? In which case, this is still ridiculous, because things aren’t valuable insofar as they get a high number in some imaginary reproductive utility calculus.

    One last thought: I am ceaselessly amazed by the extent to which people will stick their thumbs on the scales to make men come out as smarter and more deserving than women. Men’s successes are all supposedly due to their innate talents; women’s are all supposedly due to some kind of measurement error. It’s not new to me, but it always “flashes afresh to hold and horrify”. (Oh, Philip Larkin. You understand me.)

    Over and out.

  • michel

    I’d also side with Yohami’s take here: that is to say, whether women thrive or not in school is hardly the question; we’re all in agreement that they do. The question is what does this mean, i.e. how are they putting their education to use? I don’t see any evidence that America is getting a return on its investment by sending its daughters to college.

  • Höllenhund

    Rae,

    I see you aren’t getting it so I’ll put it in simple terms. Both rape and cuckoldry are intended to a) circumvent the sexual choices of someone else b) exploit his/her parental capacity to your own ends. The evolutionary reason behind cuckoldry is explained in detail here:

    http://www.doccool.com/cheated-on-husband-for-better-genes/

  • Quantosaurus

    I believe the data shows that the female mean IQ is two points lower than the male mean IQ.

    It depends on the test, but it’s typically more than 2 and closer to 10. Earlier IQ tests showed more dramatic differences, but they’ve been renormed to bring women’s scores up.

    There are actually more geniuses than there ‘should’ be. The distribution proceeds as expected to about the 3rd SD, but then you’ll see clumps of people with very high IQ’s, almost all of them male. This is why IQ tests generally aren’t regarded as reliable for high IQ’s. They’re best at capturing aptitudes within 2 SD of the standard, which is 100.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Quantosaurus
      Thanks for clarifying. I would add that the cluster of very high male IQs explains a lot of why the STEM fields are primarily male. It’s not just a question of interest, there’s also an aptitude component.

  • Mike C

    http://www.doccool.com/cheated-on-husband-for-better-genes/

    My God. What a horrifying story. That is an EVIL woman. Ya know, shit like that, is the kind of stuff that can lead to something like a murder in passion. The level of forethought and planning to basically just use the man as nothing more then a resource provider. She says she “loves him”. Wow.
    .
    Ya know, sometimes I read some stuff and I say to myself “some guys are getting a bit extreme”. You read Roissy and “man, he is just too cynical”, and then you read something like that, and you scratch your head, and wonder how many women are essentially sociopathic predators like that woman?

    Honestly, if someone can’t see that a woman like that who has done that to that poor dumb bastard isn’t the exact equivalent of a rapist, then there is something “fucked up” with their moral bearings.
    .
    As you read that, one thing that should jump out is the guy is basically an omega, 36-year old virgin. Guys need to learn all this shit for no other reason then to hopefully avoid predatory women like the one in that article.

  • Höllenhund

    You read Roissy and “man, he is just too cynical”, and then you read something like that, and you scratch your head, and wonder how many women are essentially sociopathic predators like that woman?

    What matters is that any Western woman can be like that if she wants to, and she will be able to get away with it.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    http://www.doccool.com/cheated-on-husband-for-better-genes/

    It’s the prevalance of false paternity which I find so shocking & disturbing – it does seem to be somewhere in the region of 1 in 10 men are spending their whole lives working for, sacrificing their plans & dreams for, providing & protecting for children they believe are their own, but aren’t.

    An almost unimaginable betrayal, yet one which no woman has ever had to suffer.

  • michel

    I have to say my time spent on the Internet has totally obliterated any trust I have in women, even my relatively sweet, introverted girlfriend. To what extent any of this is justified I can’t say (the “lies, damn lies and statistics” quote bears mention here) but I sure as hell wouldn’t invest more than a second in any supposed child of mine without at least two or three paternity tests.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Mandatory paternity tests for all!!

    Should come with the birth certificate.

  • Mike C

    To what extent any of this is justified I can’t say (the “lies, damn lies and statistics” quote bears mention here) but I sure as hell wouldn’t invest more than a second in any supposed child of mine without at least two or three paternity tests.
    .
    In a sense, I almost think it is sad that it has come to this, but I almost think you HAVE TO manage your relationship according to the Reagan principle of “Trust, but Verify”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      I don’t know if you’ve seen the discussion about this woman Kat at both Athol’s and Dalrock’s, but I think you’d find it interesting. Very bad cheating behavior.

  • Blues

    You just dont get it do you?
    How many Einstein`s, Henry david Thoreau`s, Thomas Edisons would there have been had women had the same outlet to education and creative thinking men have always enjoyed?

    How many female composers reached the bar set by Mozart, Chopin and Beethoven? after all for centuries it was women who historically got preferential education in the musical arts, and yet before or after feminism i struggle to name/find outstanding female composers.

  • Wanderer

    At the risk of sounding contrarian (again), and with apologies to our gracious hostess, I would actually question the equivocation of cuckoldry with rape.

    This isn’t to say it’s anything but a horrible crime for which guilty women should be condemned in the strongest terms. However, from a man’s perspective, I can actually think of several instances where men take care of children which aren’t their own: Adoption. In those cases a man (if he’s single) or a man and a woman (as a couple) happily accept a child completely unrelated to them genetically for religious, moral, or other kinds of reasons. On the other hand, I have never heard a heterosexual man say he’d ever want to be raped by another man (and according to the testimonials on toysoldiers.wordpress.com, being raped by women is a profoundly traumatizing experience for heterosexual men as well). The fact that men in certain situations “cuckold” themselves willingly (via adoption or other instances where they take care of non-related minors) seems to indicate to me that cuckoldry isn’t really comparable to rape, which as far as I can tell no man has ever wanted, period.

  • michel

    The fact that men in certain situations “cuckold” themselves willingly (via adoption or other instances where they take care of non-related minors) seems to indicate to me that cuckoldry isn’t really comparable to rape, which as far as I can tell no man has ever wanted, period.

    I’m not really willing to get involved in this somewhat silly grievance competition, but isn’t this just as analogous to women’s relationship to “rape”? That is to say, most women fetishize the idea of rape a little, perhaps knowing that it’s wrong? I don’t think the human tendency to sexualize everything somehow exonerates the seriousness of a behavior. (Real) cuckoldry is still cuckoldry, even if a small community indulges in it; (real) rape is still rape, even if some women court it.

  • michel

    Actually, I misread the quoted post, but on rereading it’s even more flawed than I first thought: adoption is not even remotely comparable to cuckoldry, because the entire definition of being a cuckold hinges on the man not knowing that his wife was unfaithful. There’s no comparison whatsoever, they’re entirely different phenomena.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    The fact that men in certain situations “cuckold” themselves willingly (via adoption or other instances where they take care of non-related minors)

    Err there is a little word called CONSENT that is not anywhere near that definition.
    Is not like it happens this way:
    Wife: “Look how hot the pool boy is I’m going to make a baby with him”
    Husband: “You are totally right he will give us great genes, mine are so worthless, great find honey!”

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I don’t know if you’ve seen the discussion about this woman Kat at both Athol’s and Dalrock’s, but I think you’d find it interesting. Very bad cheating behavior.

    No Mike don’t! If you value your sanity don’t. I only read what other commenters says she writes about and I think I puked in my mouth a little. Is like real life Dexter but with sex…and I don’t freaking watch Dexter for the same reasons.

  • Mike C

    @Mike C
    I don’t know if you’ve seen the discussion about this woman Kat at both Athol’s and Dalrock’s, but I think you’d find it interesting. Very bad cheating behavior.

    .
    I must have missed those posts because I don’t recall those discussions. You have links?
    .
    What I find particularly egregious about this example is that it is one thing to maybe be in an unhappy marriage, make a mistake, and not be sure. Or have a one-night stand in the heat of passion. Very wrong, but not evil.
    .
    In this example, this was all planned in advance with alot of forethought. Essentially, her husband is a “mark” and she is running the ultimate con. She identified a weak, easy prey in a 36-year old virgin who is probably clueless about any of this stuff. She gets his financial resources and emotional support while getting genes and “hot sex” elsewhere. And the just the level of meticulous planning and detail. The man really isn’t a “husband” in any meaningful sense of the world, and the fact that she feels absolutely no guilt whatsoever is mind-boggling. She is basically a sociopath.

  • Mike C

    Err there is a little word called CONSENT that is not anywhere near that definition.
    Is not like it happens this way:
    Wife: “Look how hot the pool boy is I’m going to make a baby with him”
    Husband: “You are totally right he will give us great genes, mine are so worthless, great find honey!”

    LOL. You really are the best Stephenie. This is a perfect example of how you just see the essence of an issue and distill it down to just basic common sense and moral decency. What I can’t figure out why some other commenters can’t see things with the same clarity and essentially are lost in a sea of intellectual jibberish and complete moral ambiguity. I sure hope to God that you represent the majority while some others I won’t name are the minority, but the scary thing is I think it is the exact opposite.

  • jess

    to mae and anon and a few others,
    .
    i do share your frustrations- if you look at some earlier threads you will see quite a few alarming attitudes.
    .
    and to quote the host ‘i fear they are in earnest’.
    .
    if its any consolation, I have made the habit of circulating some threads either at work or with friends. They react in a uniform fashion- bewilderment and revulsion.
    .
    Trust me, the vast majority of men CAN distinguish between rape and, for example, cuckoldry.
    .
    What you have here is a sounding board for the some pretty extremist views. Yes, there is some trolling going on I daresay but its informative to see how some people view the world and some of the attitudes people hold. You might as well know whats out there….

  • Blues

    Nanka, with your attitude toward women, Im not so sure it is your brain that is puny….lol

    Ad hominem Tom? seems someone just lost the argument.

  • Mike C

    No Mike don’t! If you value your sanity don’t. I only read what other commenters says she writes about and I think I puked in my mouth a little. Is like real life Dexter but with sex…and I don’t freaking watch Dexter for the same reasons.
    .
    I’ve already read some whacked out stuff (wonder if it is the same blog?). Some time back, this crazy whore bitch (sorry if that is offensive but she is) went after Roissy on one of his posts (big mistake) and it led back to her blog, and she got hammered with a ton of comments that she later pulled. I found my way there, and did some reading. She is one of these types that basically just totally screws around on her husband with every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there. What I was utterly shocked to learn is there is a whole culture of these whore wives with their blogs detailing all their adulterous affairs. There must have been 10-20 on her blogroll, and what was just repugnant was all the commenters in support of her, her lifestyle, and almost relishing in her tales.
    .
    I have a very strong stomach because my expectations are pretty low. Frankly, I think good chunk of humanity is either utterly stupid, morally depraved, or both. I sincerely admire your belief and effort that you can make a difference. I think I am well beyond that point, but that doesn’t mean I can’t lead a happy life for myself and my loved ones, but I think you have to be very careful about the people you let into your personal life, especially choice of spouse.

  • jess

    are women as bright as men????
    .
    are we really having this conversation??
    .
    are people really suggesting that men are superior intellectually???
    .
    WTF?
    .
    Hell, if women are so dumb, remove the vote and don’t bother funding their education cos whats the point?
    .
    In terms of outliners there are plenty- there are high profile female physicists, there are examples of precocious female mathematicians taking their degrees early, in almost every field women are making head way. Want an artist? try Tracey Emin.
    .
    So why isnt it 50%?
    .
    I have posted links explaining preference diversion due to peer pressure. Plus child rearing delays careers as do discrimination, boys networks and family/religious/cultural expectations.
    .
    For a while, most great scientific breakthroughs were made by european, white, rich, noblemen. Mmmmm, guess that means white, rich nobleman have a genetic propensity for the sciences!!!
    .
    You know, earlier somebody questioned the need for modern feminism- well merely a fraction these posts provide the richest of justifications.
    .
    oh and if there are any jezabel plants in here, then hats off, but try not to overplay your role- non-one likes a ham actor.

  • anon

    Jess, I can tell you deeply value the opinion of your peers (hence why you’re such a generic Brit woman, you have no real beliefs in anything and only defer to the majority) so you might want to consider what your friends think you’re doing reading “extremist” sites.

  • Mike C

    “For it is dangerous to attach one’s self to the crowd in front, and so long as each one of us is more willing to trust another than to judge for himself, we never show any judgement in the matter of living, but always a blind trust, and a mistake that has been passed on from hand to hand finally involves us and works our destruction. It is the example of other people that is our undoing; let us merely separate ourselves from the crowd, and we shall be made whole. But as it is, the populace,, defending its own iniquity, pits itself against reason. And so we see the same thing happening that happens at the elections, where, when the fickle breeze of popular favour has shifted, the very same persons who chose the praetors wonder that those praetors were chosen.”
    — Seneca

  • Wanderer

    adoption is not even remotely comparable to cuckoldry, because the entire definition of being a cuckold hinges on the man not knowing that his wife was unfaithful. There’s no comparison whatsoever, they’re entirely different phenomena.

    This exactly right, but it doesn’t seem to undermine the point I was making: That cuckoldry and rape are completely different phenomena, similar only in the sense that they are both wrong. My use of the adoption example was to simply illustrate why: to most men, taking care of someone else’s genetic material isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, the deception involved in cuckoldry specifically is what makes it bad. This is in contrast to rape, which if you ask most men is a bad thing in and of itself, period. To say cuckoldry is the male equivalent of rape isn’t even wrong, it’s just meaningless. You can tell a male rape victim that his reproductive interests weren’t harmed and that he would only actually have been raped if he had taken care of someone else’s kid for years without knowing, but it’s unlikely you will receive anything more than a blank and incredulous stare.

  • Blues

    I know I should just give up, but I’m bothered that nobody else has noticed how incredibly fucked up this is. It only makes sense if you think a woman’s sex organs are a “reproductive resource” that belongs to the man she’s partnered with. (I’m not sure it even makes sense then, since the bit about rape assumes, correctly, that a woman’s sex organs belong to the woman herself.)

    So, a woman is entitled to have the babies of someone other than her husband?

    Or maybe the male “reproductive resource” is taking care of kids that might potentially result from cheating? In which case, this is still ridiculous, because things aren’t valuable insofar as they get a high number in some imaginary reproductive utility calculus.

    Am i catching this wrong or are you actually supporting cuckoldry on the basis that it’s not widespread?.

    One last thought: I am ceaselessly amazed by the extent to which people will stick their thumbs on the scales to make men come out as smarter and more deserving than women. Men’s successes are all supposedly due to their innate talents; women’s are all supposedly due to some kind of measurement error. It’s not new to me, but it always “flashes afresh to hold and horrify”. (Oh, Philip Larkin. You understand me.)

    You find it that abnormal to point the fact that men have thrived over and over in the face of adversity for centuries when women complain about men not thriving in a system that’s essentially biased towards women?

  • jess

    anon
    yeah- i do get a bit of ribbing if im honest.
    .
    but i do get nagged for the latest instalments too- its been a source of amusement and debate over the past 2 years.
    .
    as for beliefs i have plenty as it goes. Sure, i sit on the fence from time to time and I see grey when I used to see b or w. But there not many issues i dont know my own stance on and why. And i have always acted on my beliefs and tried to improve the situation in whatever way I can.
    .
    not sure what generic is btw? 2.4 kids?

  • collegeboy

    I talked to an older attractive woman (divorced early 40′s) last week. She seemed to think that having babies with other men was okay (when in a committed relationship/marriage). She said husbands don’t notice or mind, it doesn’t make a difference, her friends do it all the time, she said. I tried to change her mind about this issue. Things didn’t go, well after that, when she understood that this wasn’t something that I would be willing to accept (I told her she could take other men for fools, but not me).

    If I marry a woman with children, then I’m taking the good, with the bad and I’m compromising.

    I want my children to be successful, to go beyond high school and sharing my resources with children who are not mine, without my consent is equivalent to rape.

    Rape defined – To take something without consent or permission ( or without paying first)

    Women’s best cards are – sexual attractiveness, loyalty, their labor

    Men best cards are – money and protection, and labor.

    I’m willing to make a trade, but with the assurance that the children will be mine only (I don’t have plans on children).

    This is the number one reason, for which I will avoid attractive women. They overvalue their looks. They think they can get away, with everything. They are the equivalent of alpha males, except they become less valuable as they age (inside and out).

    This is what I mean by ruthless, attractive women.

    Girls do you like cops? Like a husband that’s a cop? The most common and usual thing to happen is for cops to shoot their wifes dead and then themselves. Allot of those incidents don’t even show up or get publicity in the news. Its more common than you would think (I did some work, for the legal folks).

  • Blues

    http://www.doccool.com/cheated-on-husband-for-better-genes/

    All i can say is “Well shit”,also, this is an ideal link to post on any feminist discussion advocating that women are monogamous.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    think I am well beyond that point, but that doesn’t mean I can’t lead a happy life for myself and my loved ones, but I think you have to be very careful about the people you let into your personal life, especially choice of spouse.

    Don’t worry Mike C I operate under the personal philosophy that every human being (male and female) is basically good till proven otherwise.
    But I’m careful on letting then open up before I invest anything major with them to know what level of goodness they sport to know how close or distant should I be with them but once proven they are no indeed good. I’m very good at not letting them screw me or my loved ones. I am smart and observant but also very diplomatic. And my husband is the best man I ever meet so I think I choose right with him. :)

  • jess

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16331-the-lack-of-female-einsteins-is-all-down-to-numbers.html
    .
    one hates to labour a point but ah well….
    .
    ps and college boy- seriously, if you cant see how weird/offensive your rape comments are, then you could do with talking to someone. I know I will get insulted/rebutted for this but seriously, i mean this sincerely, have a conversation with someone- just to get a handle on things- J

  • Rae

    Jess, thank you. I agree with your claim that most men are decent people with a basic grip on the difference between rape and things that are not rape. Staring into the vortex of the Internet just made my brain explode for a minute there.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Rape is different than cuckholdry, so fuck that comparison.

    When someone rapes you they force you sexually, its your body, with your nerves, your mind, soul, whatever, its an experience and the experience itself leaves a traumatic mark on you

    When someone cuckholds you, you dont know it, they consume your resources and play with your dreams and utilize your resources and all that. And its a “rape” if we use a very feminist liberal use of the word, since almost everything that a woman doesnt want is a “rape” now, but, hey, its not rape

    Not saying that one is worse than the other. Rape is physical aggression. Cuckholdry is a fraud. If you had to pick one to happen to you a couple of times, I would, for sure, pick a cuckhold over rape, so I guess that makes rape a notch worse.

    In either way I would kill the aggressor. Cuckhold ladies should serve prison time.

  • Wanderer

    You essentially said what I wanted to with fewer words and greater clarity. Thanks very much, Yohami.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    the funny thing with Jess here:

    If it was the men having children outside of the marriage and somehow bringing them into the marriage, and having the woman tricked into being their mom, nurture, change diapers, etc – feminists would call that “rape” too

    but, its not. Its cuckholdry.

  • namae nanka

    “the same reason there is no female Jack The Ripper.”

    actually there was a woman as a suspect, so Jack/Jill the Ripper is more correct, and of course politically correct. Though she does look quite masculinised in her facial features.

    “There have been some very, very dark & sinister female monsters in history that make JTR look like a fool”

    and some female serial murderers who were never suspected because men’s chivalry.

    “Genene Anne Jones (born July 13, 1950) is a former pediatric nurse who killed somewhere between 11 and 46 infants and children in her care.”
    “However, she will serve only one-third of her sentence because of a law in place at the time to deal with prison overcrowding. Jones will receive automatic parole in 2017. ”

    Women’s prison overcrowding? who would have thought..

    and Paglia is a lesbian. Not a man. She can have thoughts of raping women, but not the thought of “otherness” that men feel towards women.

    “Nanka, with your attitude toward women, Im not so sure it is your brain that is puny….lol”

    Well it’s behooves you to look up probable causes for why it is so. Curie faced so much paterarchy and yet the post 2nd(?) wave feminism has yet to produce one.

    “I mean have you ever actually had a relationship with a woman, or is all your nonsensical opinions learned from a book? ”
    “Not talking about just using a woman as a cum dumpster.Not just a sexual relationship”

    I have too much respect for women to fuck them, and just enough for myself to not have a relationship with them.

    “Men’s successes are all supposedly due to their innate talents; women’s are all supposedly due to some kind of measurement error.”

    No, the disconnect for me is the using men’s places to promote women, expropriating not only men’s resources but the means of doing so, and then claiming that it’s progress(for women) and something grand. It’s idiocy, making your own brothers, fathers, sons, husbands look small is somehow progress?

    Then saying they need more from men now that they can use men’s institutions. Umm what?

    The absolutely disgusting point about how men won’t be needed in the future. The glee at such scenarios as if any one of us will be living at that point of time is disturbing. That combined with ubiquitous charges of misogyny, and you have to wonder if it isn’t their own projection.

    Weininger(the foremost misogynist on wiki)’s work is much illuminating on these topics. He makes out a case not for the emancipation of all women, but women who are significantly masculine in their manner.
    But feminism wants much more, it wants the social conditions changed in a manner where average men and women move towards the other gender’s mannerisms, thus leading to a more androgynous society where equality of outcomes can become a realistic possibility.
    And since environment does play a role, nurture affects nature, the effects are clear and it’s those at the extremes that make it difficult for this to happen over the entirety of sexes. Such behaviors can be simply outlawed on the male side.

    “What you have here is a sounding board for the some pretty extremist views.”

    No. my view of history is correct and certainly correct over the stupid “oh no, those men have been oppressing us since the dawn of time”
    The fact that men can believe this should inform anyone how stupid and sentimental men are when it comes to women, and how much society is geared towards women.

    http://finndistan.blogspot.com/2011/06/smelly-media-curse-of-men-working-to.html

  • namae nanka

    “The ATL refers to evidence that pupils in single-sex schools enable both boys and girls to develop broader”

    Anyway I would rather same-sex colleges too.

    Feminists of course don’t want this. They want gender differentiation to be done away with. Or do they? If boys and girls are separated, how can they drill in boys that they are inferior in school? How could they be in control of the curriculum?

    The next generation of men are boys who are certainly fallible. What better place to do it than schools?

    Boys don’t mature into men as quickly as girls mature into women, and girls mature faster too.
    So schools imho contain the biggest potential for change.

    http://freetexthost.com/ychjba5p1e

  • Aldonza

    Oy…the cuckhold meme still lurks. Heinous fraud, yes. Equivalent to rape? I have trouble with that one, but I’m not going to debate how people feel if it happened to them (to be distingushed from how people *think* they’d feel in the hypothetical blog comment world.) Common? I doubt it, and I’m far from alone.

    To Have and to Cuckhold

    I think that any order of child support should be preceded by a paternity test. In cases where paternity is later determined to be different, any existing orders of child support should be vacated. In cases where a woman knowingly cuckholded her husband, she should be prosecuted for fraud.

  • namae nanka

    the link above was response to this video:

  • namae nanka

    is this rape? attempted?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeadI7jieDY

    the no-problems cuckoldry is the ultimate point against the western civilization being a civilization in the first place. The whole culture is terminally sick. Gender equality can go fuck itself.

  • namae nanka

    “The lack of female Einsteins is all down to numbers”

    you need to realize the meaning of genius. Women coming in a field after a herd of men have grazed through it, makes numbers a moot point.

  • Aldonza

    @jess

    Research conducted by Andrew Stables in 1990 indicates that girls aged 13-14 in single sex schools are more likely to express an interest in maths and science than their peers in coeducational schools

    In all of those studies, I’d be interested in seeing if the cohorts in the coed schools were adjusted for socio-economic status. It could well be that families who have the means to choose same-sex education, also have the means to nurture and encourage interest in STEM fields.

    I’m not denying the premise that STEM fields can be hostile to women. They can. But I’m not entirely convinced that it’s a hostile classroom that is the problem. I’ve found that STEM men can be quite clique-ish and downright hostile to newcomers of either sex. But “beta-geeks” in particular seem to derive a fair amount of their masculine ego from their technical abilities and can see women achieving in their field as an assault on that.

  • Esau

    Essentially, her husband is a “mark” and she is running the ultimate con. She identified a weak, easy prey in a 36-year old virgin who is probably clueless about any of this stuff. She gets his financial resources and emotional support while getting genes and “hot sex” elsewhere.

    For those with a literary bent, this describes part of the plot of the book “Day of the Locust” by Nathanael West. It’s a very quick read, you might enjoy it. And — fun fact! — I believe it’s the origin of the character name Homer Simpson.

  • Wanderer

    The fact that men can believe this should inform anyone how stupid and sentimental men are when it comes to women,

    If one takes this line of thinking further, however, one must wonder whether or not men are just stupid and sentimental in general. It’d be nice if most of us were Einsteins and Maxwells, but if what you say is true, my good Nanka, perhaps we aren’t actually as smart, on the whole, as you seemed to be portraying us to be above.

    Ah, dear. I suppose I should apologize to our hostess again. I’m so damn cynical tonight…

  • namae nanka

    and I must point out that couple of 10 year old boys were found guilty of attempted rape of a 8 year old girl.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/may/24/boys-guilty-attempted-rape-girl

    The hypocrisy is maddening. Any sane man cannot be expected live in such conditions and not come to some unpleasant conclusions about the equality of “genders”.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Dude, your link is a perfect example of false rape claim, why it happens, misandry, blaming-the-man, female stupididy, and law bias, all at once:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/may/24/boys-guilty-attempted-rape-girl

  • Aldonza

    is this rape? attempted?

    At least in Massachusettes, it would likely be considered a lesser charge of indecent assault and battery because there was no attempt at sex with him. However, what they did *definitely* falls under the current state and federal child pornography laws.

    I’m very upset at the mother for not pressing charges. If this had been my son, there would’ve been hell to pay.

  • namae nanka

    “If one takes this line of thinking further, however, one must wonder whether or not men are just stupid and sentimental in general. It’d be nice if most of us were Einsteins and Maxwells, but if what you say is true, my good Nanka, perhaps we aren’t actually as smart, on the whole, as you seemed to be portraying us to be above.”

    Well, even the highest IQ guy, Goethe was a senti beta

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrike_von_Levetzow

    “men are simple creatures” – women
    for that’s all the most of them see. Except those mysterious and somewhat misogynist, who are good to have sex with.

  • namae nanka

    “for that’s all the most of them can see”

    “it would likely be considered a lesser charge of indecent assault and battery because there was no attempt at sex with him”

    well that’s good to know, I take off on my pantsing binge now.

  • daffyyd

    @mike c….i had a frisson of recognition when i read the links you posted a while back re: societal breakdown….it’s the one thing i miss here at HUS, a more global perspective on the canvas in which all these debates about gender dynamics unfold….egad!….does anyone seriously think that ‘genetic selection’ is operative in a world with 7 billion people?…given where we are in human history any and all recourse to speculative ‘evolutionary psychology’ to rationalize stupid behaviour is just so beside the point…..now is the crux; now is the moment to put aside gender one-up-man-ship and get on with learning to live sustainably….

  • Aldonza

    and the amazing fact that after curie and her daughter there have been no female physics nobel prize winners.

    Wrong. Maria Goeppert-Mayer also won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1963.

    The complete list of female Nobel Prize winnters:
    Economics:
    2009 Elinor Ostrom

    Physics:
    1903 Marie Sklodowska Curie
    1963 Maria Goeppert Mayer

    Chemistry:
    1911 Marie Sklodowska Curie
    1935 Irene Joliot-Curie
    1964 Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin
    2009 Ada E. Yonath

    Physiology & Medicine:
    1947 Gerty Radnitz Cori
    1977 Rosalyn Sussman Yalow
    1983 Barbara McClintock
    1986 Rita Levi-Montalcini
    1988 Gertrude Elion
    1995 Christiane Nusslein-Volhard
    2004 Linda B. Buck
    2008 Francoise Barre-Sinoussi
    2009 Elizabeth H. Blackburn
    2009 Carol W. Greider

    Peace:
    1905 Baroness Bertha von Suttner
    1931 Jane Addams
    1946 Emily Greene Balch
    1976 Betty Williams
    1976 Mairead Corrigan
    1979 Mother Teresa
    1982 Alva Myrdal
    1991 Aung San Suu Kyi
    1992 Rigoberta Menchu Tum
    1997 Jody Williams
    2003 Shirin Ebadi
    2004 Wangari Maathai

    Literature:
    1909 Selma Ottilia Lovisa Lagerlof
    1926 Grazia Deledda
    1928 Sigrid Undset
    1938 Pearl Buck
    1945 Gabriela Mistral
    1966 Nelly Sachs
    1991 Nadine Gordimer
    1993 Toni Morrison
    1996 Wislawa Szymborska
    2004 Elfriede Jelinek
    2007 Doris Lessing
    2009 Herta Müller

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    @Yohami
    “Maybe its crazy, but in men, self esteem, swagger, confidence and a lot of other attractive traits are linked to the men´s position on the men´s ladder. This means when a man is a loser, feels like a loser and tries even less.”
    *
    At Roissy’s blog (a year ago?), in the comments, someone called this “the shoulders of defeat”.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    The nobel prize jumped the shark with Obama. Lets look for other ways to measure accomplishments

  • collegeboy

    @jess says:

    Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way.

    I wasn’t looking at things from my perspective. I was looking at things from the perspective of other bloggers, i.e. Roissy. I also read comments from others on this blog, and I was contributing to their discussion.

    I had to ask my self some very hard questions about what motivates me and what I want to do with my life. Children isn’t one of them. so it doesn’t matter, to me any way. Additionally if they aren’t my children, then getting them through college and into a successful carrier path is totally irrelevant, and this is totally conversation is totally irrelevant (to me). Because I’m not going to have children.

    But I agree, its fraud and not rape.

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    I again must ask: if our women are now more educated than ever, where are the results? Where are the great women writers, scientists and artists?

    This is exactly why the feminists keep saying “We still have a long way to go!”; they will never admit innate differences between men and women.

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    @Mike C

    Ya know, sometimes I read some stuff and I say to myself “some guys are getting a bit extreme”. You read Roissy and “man, he is just too cynical”, and then you read something like that, and you scratch your head, and wonder how many women are essentially sociopathic predators like that woman?

    There are millions of female psychopaths, just like there are millions of male psychopaths. They are not the only explanation for everything in the world, but most people know nothing about the great science that’s been done on the subject, and they look just like us, so their effect is way outside their numbers.

  • collegeboy

    @jess says:

    @YOHAMI: And its a “rape” if we use a very feminist liberal use of the word, since almost everything that a woman doesnt want is a “rape” now, but, hey, its not rape

    This reminds me of the Bill Clinton, years.

    If feminists call everything rape, like looking at them, the wrong way, then why shouldn’t men call getting their life financially and emotionally ruined by bad women rape.

    But this isn’t the place to use that kind of manipulation (that feminists use, I’m copying you). Because that would make our whole discussion worthless. We have plenty more common ground, than we don’t.

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    The winner of this thread is … STEPHENIE ROWLING!
    Yayyy!

  • Rum

    In ancient Rome, a man was expected to kill a wife if he learned he was a cuckhold. Killing the resulting child was permissable but not expected.
    All men understand this without needing an explanation. No woman understands this regardless of how much explaining they receive.

  • Aldonza

    @Jeffrey of Troy

    There are millions of female psychopaths, just like there are millions of male psychopaths. They are not the only explanation for everything in the world, but most people know nothing about the great science that’s been done on the subject, and they look just like us, so their effect is way outside their numbers.

    Actually, one major facet of “psychopathy” is antisocial behavior. It seems this particular trait is a major part of what separates people who lack empathetic abilities (usually Narcissists, found in both genders), from psychopaths (more commonly male). Antisocial behavior is more risk-taking, rule-breaking, immune to the threat of repercussions for behavior.

    People from any of the three disorders share a very significant commonality in that they lack the ability for empathy. If you find yourself with someone who doesn’t seem to “get it” when you feel hurt by something they did…run.

  • Octavia

    @ SayWhaat says: June 9, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Loved the Madame Curie comic! I thought this would be useful information too.

    Hedy Lamarr’s role in satellite and cell phone technology:

  • Octavia

    Hmm, my link didn’t post! LOL

  • Octavia

    Apparently, I can’t get my links to post properly. Sheesh.

    From CNET, blurb on Hedy Lamarr: How much sexier can you get than a woman who started her professional life in a minor, scandalous film and eventually went on to invent the technology that enables modern encrypted satellite communications and cell phone operations, stopping along the way to escape Nazis and engineer a hugely successful Hollywood career?

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-6138928-7.html#ixzz1Oq7RYgst

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-6138928-7.html

  • theHamsta

    Wading through all these comments, I think it’s time for the view from 30,000 feet.

    Look, women are nesters, males are hunters. That won’t change for a long, long time.

    The stupendous advance of technology in the past 100 years in the developed world has created a temporary upset in the natural order. The technology advance is due nearly ENTIRELY to the efforts of males.

    The net result is that we find a number of occupations traditionally persued by males has been explored, codified, and pacified by techological progress. What was “hunting” has, by immense applicaltion of technology, been turned into “gathering”. And gathering is what females like to do and where they excel.

    So, we find high functioning females in law, pharmacy, many areas of medicine,
    military and even space travel. Why? These endevours have been pacified and made safe so that they are suitable for administration, caretaking, consolidation.

    Males instinctively avoid areas where females congregate since hunting urges compel them to seek new frontiers and experiences. Male doctors will persue high risk areas of research or surgery and leave the well trodden routines of family medicine to females. Pick your own analogy to other fields.

    A big problem for males in developed societies is to find new challenges, new horizons and sources of vision and excitement. We seem to be at a temporary impasse. Many capable young males are retreating into video games and virtual pursuits – “hunting” in cyberspace.

    The other thing is that pussy, generally, is way more available for little effort than 2 generations ago. So many males perceive that they can be slackers and still get laid.

    So we see that females capturing what were traditionally “male” occupations are in fact moving into occupations that males are starting to abandon due to lack of inherent challenge, danger or excitement. And the females are doing a very good job, and making a lot of money while contributing to the economy.

    Something has to change, and it will. But in what direction??

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @theHamsta
      Wow, epic comment there on hunting vs. gathering. I’ve never heard that argument, and it makes so much sense. I agree that something has to change, I think we’re nearing that point.

  • collegeboy

    The true reason that women aren’t getting into the STEM fields is because there is very few opportunities today, in those fields (the reason men aren’t getting in either). I have a degree in a STEM field. I already stated, that I’m going to take an alternative carrier path, from that of my degree, because I want allot of financial security, because we are losing our financial security, as a country.

    Manufacturing required all types of engineers, and when the manufacturing left, so did the jobs. Additionally they are saying that the research and development will leave because research and development can be done better in close proximity to manufacturing.

    This is what I was stating. The problem is the plutocracy, not women’s success or feminists. Read my comments above.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Jeffrey of Troy
    :) Thanks *virtual hug*

    In rape vs cuckholding.

    I had never been raped and I don’t have children yet so is hard for me to agree or disagree.
    So lets do some “sees other POV’s” exercise imagine an hypothetical scenarios for both genders:

    Men:

    Imagine that you have a little more too drink in a place you though it was safe and then you find out that a woman that though was your friend (or at least inoffensive orbiter) takes advantage of you. She is fat and ugly as f*ck, mean, rude and you always suspected she might have a nasty STD, you also know that she has two kids from two different fathers and she makes them pay blood as child support and laughs at them with everyone. She placed Viagra and other drugs in your drink so you are having a huge hard on and she does her way with you while smacking you, spitting you and laughing, calling you names threatening you with accuse you of rape if you talk to anyone of that happened and telling you that she is ovulating and plans to use the kid to take money out of you and ruin your reputation, saying that you are a bad lay anyway and your dick is tiny.

    Women:
    Your husband has a mistress she gets pregnant she agrees to carry the pregnancy but not raising the kid, your husband starts to feed you pregnancy hormones, you period stops, he is also feeding you extra-calories so you get fat he pays off doctors to trick you with the sonograms and you are so convinced that you are pregnant that your belly and your body start to change (this is actually a real medical phenomenon called pseudocyesis :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_pregnancy) you are happy and giddy thinking there is a life that belongs to you and your body growing inside of you, you think of names and dream with how she or he will look “it will have my mother’s eyes” “Will he be a good sportsman” “I hope she doesn’t get my cousin Annie’s temper!” you laugh and are truly happy, you created life. You show everyone the sonograms of your baby, you participate in baby shower, paint the room a proud mother. Then your sneaky husband fakes the contractions at the same time her mistress does, they knock you with so much drugs that you barely remember. But then they give your baby and you are happy again, look into his eyes trying to find your mother, your grandfather, yourself into him and your husband is there, holding your hand with a big smile on his face, maybe not because he is happy to have a child but because he got away with the fake out and you don’t suspect a thing and will raise this kid at your own, maybe even thinking it does looks like you after all, that his good grades are because he inherited your smartness and you work hard everyday to be the best mother you can be, for YOUR child.

    I know this are very fantastic unlikely scenarios, but I think is good exercise to try to imagine things from others people’s POV from time to time.
    I hope you like them, I meant well.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie, what a perv.

  • Blues

    Holy shit, Stephanie Rowling’s secret ID is Sthepen King.

  • collegeboy

    @Aldonza says:Actually, one major facet of “psychopathy” is antisocial behavior.

    psychologists just go along with what society wants them to say (and most of them are crazies themselves, that’s why they went into psychology, I know psychology majors), arguing with them is pointless, they seem incapable of independent thought.

    The divorced ruthless attractive woman (in her 40′s)who told me that cuckold was okay, was a psychology major(I didn’t know until after, when I asked), working as a marketing manager (with money and lots of arrogance). She told me it was about “framing” or perspective, or a filter of how I see life. I gather information and use logic (intro to philosophy 2301) to figure out the best outcome that’s fair for me and others, that’s my filter (emotions are fickle, so I don’t make important decisions with them).

    I once knew a male drug rehabilitation therapist that was a body builder, he told me about the bull shit they feed their clients. About the level of hypocrisy.

    What’s with attractive women, they give men so much manipulation and they are cruel. Are they really in their right minds? Men are allot more true to themselves and others. Allot of women lie to themselves.

    I try hard to not hurt other women’s ego(really hurt), when I’m approached or when I play with them (sure I do push pull, but i try to establish honesty, trust and mutual understanding) and I’m even friends with women who are not attractive (that shows other women I’m not arrogant).

    I have only had like one (white) pretty girl let me down, easy (trying not to hurt my ego). But I have had women who flirt with me just to make a fool out of me more than once (before I learned game, today I blow them off). One older girl flirted with me and called me up (openly no misdirection) only to blow me off in front of others.

    That’s why I want an intelligent woman, because she will be capable of understanding difficult situations and avoiding conflicts. Intelligent doesn’t mean educated (i know plenty of morons who are educated). Susan is intelligent, just in case anyone was wondering, that’s why I’m on HUS.

  • collegeboy

    Stephenie Rowling says: In rape vs cuckholding.

    @collegeboy: [I'm sorry; I contributed to this argument in a destructive way before].

    The act of rape is far worse, however the fact that government doesn’t do anything about cuckholding, and women can abuse men is what causes so much emotional trauma

    Its about hurting someone else emotionally (like causing depression) and taking away something they had and really wanted in life.

    In rape to women: right to security of mind and body (no STD’s, no physical pain, no babies, no unfairness, no monetary losses, no emotional trauma(distrust, fear).

    cuckholding in men: Right to financial security (tied to our ego, you kill this and we will get depressed), Right to give priority to biological children(we want the best for our children), emotional trauma caused by government’s unwillingness to provide fairness, emotional trauma because of loss of intimacy with spouse (this is a form of extreme abuse, because of reasons listed above), there is also a bit of physical pain (keep in mind that men are obsessive about what they do, that we we work our selves to the bone for what we want and believe in (That’s why I’m afraid of male competition, I can take it(I’m very competitive), but I would rather not, if I can avoid it). I gladly take the matriarchy model and be more co-operative, if I can at least marginally satisfy my important needs (I’ll live longer). So that makes me an capitalist/individualists, by nature. Its that drive, that makes me successful, even if its sinful. The key to success will be to get the best outcome, for me and others.

  • Aldonza

    @collegeboy

    The divorced ruthless attractive woman (in her 40′s)who told me that cuckold was okay, was a psychology major(I didn’t know until after, when I asked), working as a marketing manager (with money and lots of arrogance).

    Speaking as a relatively attractive, occasionally ruthless, divorced woman in her forties who minored in Psychology, and makes a good living working with marketing, that woman is a moronic twat.

  • collegeboy

    Just for laughs: look at the word

    Business

    its like Kinko’s motto- Ink is our middle name.

    SIN is the middle name in businesses.

  • daffyyd

    @collegeboy…..well put!…

  • collegeboy

    @Aldonza says: that woman is a moronic twat.

    I think she majored in Psychology (but that’s irrelevant).

    I agree, but she is just one more, out of a long list. I have talked to allot of girls, only a few actually answer without being egotistically manipulative this woman wasn’t one of them.

    This woman is empowered with money and she used to have looks (and still does, for her age). Successful people think they are powerful, and that means they do whatever they want, despite what other would like (this goes both ways). I’m surprised she opened up like that, but she was still manipulative.

    Just remember who gives them the power. other people.

    If she is attractive, she has more choices. If you don’t like the she treats you, you can leave and she will find someone else.

    To most of the attractive women I met, a long time ago, means last week.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Stephie, what a perv.

    Heh, I’m a writer that is my excuse. ;)

    Holy shit, Stephanie Rowling’s secret ID is Sthepen King.

    Oh I wish I had a truckload of money and a loyal huge fanbase. I’m a writer remember award winner at that. I did my homework very well about understanding a bit of evil and human basic fears, but I particularly don’t like it.

    Funny enough I should technically writer thrillers and horror but I prefer to write and read happy endings and fairy tales and YA books with no sex scenes in it (mostly because sex is very personal and chances are you are never going to please everyone with a sex scene and end up using silly phrases like “he moved like a Leopard”, sorry Susan, and that is just painful, allowing the reader to have the characters made love in any way they imagine works better IMO).
    Real life is horrific enough no need to add more pain to the world is another of my mottos. :)

  • collegeboy

    @Aldonza says:Speaking as a relatively attractive, occasionally ruthless, divorced woman in her forties who minored in Psychology, and makes a good living working with marketing

    within marriage this is what i have to say to you:

    its individualism vs collectivism or capitalism vs socialism.

    I don’t even want to write this anymore. I’m speaking metaphorically and I’m going to choose to co-operate, and stay away from bad women (not have children either).

    but its the compete/kill (me first attitude) vs the co-operate/help-neighbor. your not going to be attractive for ever. Women like that are going to end up ugly outside and inside. I don’t want to be around them, I don’t care how lonely or depressed they will get when they are older. I’m not going to help them, either(where’s my compassion? where was yours?).

    I mirror. I would want to help altruistic individuals, instead, for doing what’s against their true human nature.

    you only have to be “occasionally ruthless”, to ruin a marriage. I call that showing your true colors.

  • Höllenhund

    Wanderer

    The fact that men in certain situations “cuckold” themselves willingly (via adoption or other instances where they take care of non-related minors) seems to indicate to me that cuckoldry isn’t really comparable to rape, which as far as I can tell no man has ever wanted, period

    .

    False parallel. It’s true that a man may consent to investing into another man’s genetic offspring. But it’s also true that not all rapes are equal in female minds either. It’s well-established that women fantasize about getting “ravished” and “swept off their feet” by attractive alphas that they know. Legally speaking it’s rape but women yearn for it nevertheless. However, if three computer programmer beta nerds overpower her in a dark alley and one of them rapes her, it’s horrific trauma, a terrible crime, she’s scarred for life etc.

  • Höllenhund

    That cuckoldry and rape are completely different phenomena, similar only in the sense that they are both wrong. My use of the adoption example was to simply illustrate why: to most men, taking care of someone else’s genetic material isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, the deception involved in cuckoldry specifically is what makes it bad. This is in contrast to rape, which if you ask most men is a bad thing in and of itself, period.

    Again, false parallel. Cuckoldry is a threat to men only. Rape is a threat to women only in the sense that it may result in her bearing the child of a man she never wanted to mate with. If you want to know how rape is perceived, you have to ask women, not men. And listening to women about this issue reveals that they don’t believe rape – in the legal sense of the world – is always bad in and of itself.

  • Höllenhund

    When someone cuckholds you, you dont know it, they consume your resources and play with your dreams and utilize your resources and all that. And its a “rape” if we use a very feminist liberal use of the word, since almost everything that a woman doesnt want is a “rape” now, but, hey, its not rape.

    I think you’re approaching this from a wrong angle. Ask yourself: what does evo psych tell us about male-on-female rape? Does it serve some reproductive purpose? If yes, what is its female equivalent? Cuckoldry is the obvious answer.

  • Höllenhund

    Holy shit, Stephanie Rowling’s secret ID is Sthepen King.

    Yup, she’s a great storyteller.

  • collegeboy

    @Aldonza

    I’m not picking on you, because I’m speaking to others (you didn’t ask). This is about helping our selves before its too late, nobody’s perfect.

    One thing to mention is the socialism failed because of scarcity. When there is enough for everyone, we can share and we are all happy. When their is scarcity, then all hell breaks lose. Because it is compete or die. That’s why its so important that we end corruption. [Personal opinion: We should have children only if we have reasonable assurance that they will have opportunities for survival and rewards,still masochism]

    However scarcity means that co-operation within marriage is more important. because its you and your spouse against competing against others for scarce resources. Most people don’t realize that scarcity exits, until they have a tragedy. They don’t realize that bad things will happen and that they need a rainy day fund, to cover that (both a favors rainy day fund and money). If you don’t have money, I can’t help you (unless your in a very small group of true friends). That’s the sad reality, not idealism, under scarcity.

    Money is important, but materialism isn’t. I love showing off status symbols when I play games, but I couldn’t care less unless its going to get me something concrete like sex (or money).

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Wow Stephenie, that was amazingly put. If only women & men could genuinely put themselves in the others shoes like that on a daily basis… I think something like heaven would dawn.

    I don’t really see what the problem has been here: the original statement comparing cuckoldry & rape was preceded by the words “from a evolutionary biological/psychological perspective” - it’s not like anyone was belittling the experience of actual rape victims.

    On a social, or personal level, obviously the immediate experience of real rape is a very different experience from false paternity. But on a biological level, – & a biological level only – both are using someone else’s body against their will, & without their consent, denying them the reproductive choices they would have wished to make, either through an evening of very crap sex or a lifetime of indentured servitude.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I think you’re approaching this from a wrong angle. Ask yourself: what does evo psych tell us about male-on-female rape? Does it serve some reproductive purpose?

    On the most distant, detatched & coldly objective biological level possible, male-on-female rape is simply life trying – very impersonally – to make more of itself, & using the bodies of an individual man & woman to do it.

  • collegeboy

    @everyone

    on: Have we had enough feminism?

    I think that all this boils down to co-operating vs competing.

    Some very dominant group of feminists have a capitalist\individualist agenda, today (a CIA funded feminist group was initially known for communism early on “red stockings”, things aren’t always what they seem). I agree we need balance, we can’t go to one extreme or the other.

    Is women’s success, the cause of men’s failures?
    no. look at globalization, as it is today. Is it working for men. Why can’t we modify things so that globalization works for men, this is possible. The problem is that the rich make the rules here. Scholars have proposed a global government, with an emphasis on people (I’m not sure I agree, but it demonstrates that we can mold globalization).

    extreme individualism within relationship/marriage:
    can be harmful. If your smart, you will find the way to take as much as you can and give nothing back.The problem is you will get hurt eventually. What goes around, comes around.

    focus on ending corruption in government. Jobs are going abroad. look into that. what is occurring isn’t acceptable, but the solution has to include fair trade, not a closed economy.

  • Abbot

    I again must ask: if our women are now more educated than ever, where are the results? Where are the great women writers, scientists and artists?

    This is exactly why the feminists keep saying “We still have a long way to go!”; they will never admit innate differences between men and women.
    _________________________________

    Like their foreign sisters who live in feminism-fee paradises south of Mexico, Western / feminist women would be much happier, satisfied, calm, marriageable, pleasant, accomplished if they quit using men as benchmarks. You all need to treat yourselves better than that.

  • tito

    “I’m pretty darn happy. I wouldn’t want to go back 40 years, 30, 20, or even 10 years.”

    ha! you’ll be ‘happy’ under any system. so long as it is cool and other girls are doing it.

  • Wanderer

    Ask yourself: what does evo psych tell us about male-on-female rape? Does it serve some reproductive purpose? If yes, what is its female equivalent?
    .
    The problem is the question of observable effects and trauma. Men who have been raped tend to be traumatized in the same manner as females who have been raped (and I mean “bad” raped, i.e the betas in a dark alley). See http://www.child-abuse-effects.com/male-victims-of-sexual-abuse.html and also see the resources on http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/ . The evo-bio explanation is that women are so traumatized by rape because, as you said, it’s a hijacking of their reproductive resources. The same theory states men should be traumatized by cuckoldry in the same fashion. Going on with it, we would expect, if we were good devotees of evobio, that men would be comparatively little affected by rape since it doesn’t represent as much of a hijacking of their reproductive capacity. In reality, however, we observe that male rape victims are as traumatized as female victims, despite the fact they “can’t get pregnant.” While the cuckolded are indeed traumatized by the crime committed against them, it’s in different ways (anger and loss of time and resources as opposed to loss of identity, sexual problems, etc). Thus, it seems to me the good Yohami’s assessment of cuckoldry as fraud rather than the “male equivalent of rape” is closer to reality–at least practical reality–than yours. You can tell male victims of rape that they haven’t been wronged in reproductive terms and go on for hours about evolutionary biology, but as I said, the only thing you’ll receive in return is a blank stare.

  • Höllenhund

    and I mean “bad” raped, i.e the betas in a dark alley

    Or as Whoopi Goldberg called it: “rape-rape” – as opposed to getting-fucked-by-a-guy-too-hot-to-refuse-rape, I suppose.

    See http://www.child-abuse-effects.com/male-victims-of-sexual-abuse.html

    This is about the sexual abuse of male children, which is a completely different subject.

    The same theory states men should be traumatized by cuckoldry in the same fashion. Going on with it, we would expect, if we were good devotees of evobio, that men would be comparatively little affected by rape since it doesn’t represent as much of a hijacking of their reproductive capacity. In reality, however, we observe that male rape victims are as traumatized as female victims, despite the fact they “can’t get pregnant.”

    Is there any proof that male victims of, say, prison rape are as traumatized as female victims of “bad” rape, as you say? Is there proof that cuckolded men are not more traumatized than anally raped men?

  • Höllenhund

    chris

    Do you have any scientific study/research which backs up that claim?

    It is backed up by basic evo psych. Eggs expensive, sperm cheap – this has been true for hundreds of thousands of years, although it doesn’t apply to the same extent today. Men are programmed to sacrifice for women and children, since this maximizes the reproductive success of the entire species. Women are mostly interested in self-preservation, since they are a greater reproductive resource.

  • Höllenhund

    the original statement comparing cuckoldry & rape was preceded by the words “from a evolutionary biological/psychological perspective” – it’s not like anyone was belittling the experience of actual rape victims.

    The funny thing is that not a single commenter addressed my claim that cuckoldry usually goes completely unpunished in Western countries. Hmm…

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Yup.

  • Höllenhund

    Is women’s success, the cause of men’s failures?
    no. look at globalization, as it is today

    Politics play a role too. The feminist lobby supports any economic policy which marginalizes their main ideological enemies – right-wing white men. This leads them to ally with anyone who promotes free trade, outsourcing and mass immigration. They also pushed to divert bailout money to economic sectors mainly populated by women. Men and women are competing, not cooperating. It’s a zero-sum game.

  • Aldonza

    @collegeboy

    but its the compete/kill (me first attitude) vs the co-operate/help-neighbor. your not going to be attractive for ever. Women like that are going to end up ugly outside and inside. I don’t want to be around them, I don’t care how lonely or depressed they will get when they are older. I’m not going to help them, either(where’s my compassion? where was yours?).

    Women like that were *always* ugly on the inside. Youth just helped mask it a bit.

    you only have to be “occasionally ruthless”, to ruin a marriage. I call that showing your true colors.

    I’m occasionally ruthless at work. I can’t think of a time I was ruthless at home. To me, ruthless is getting your own needs met to the complete disregard of anyone else’s. To survive in business you need at least a little bit of it, because expecting altruism in the workplace is a losing strategy, although some companies seem to foster more of that culture than others. At home, that attitude is toxic. If you are with someone that you have to fight ruthlessly to get your needs met, you’re not with the right person.

  • Aldonza

    @Höllenhund

    The funny thing is that not a single commenter addressed my claim that cuckoldry usually goes completely unpunished in Western countries. Hmm…

    It not only goes unpunished, in some cases, it continues to be rewarded even after it’s discovered.

  • Quantosaurus

    one hates to labour a point but ah well….

    I don’t think that anyone is claiming that men are more intelligent than women in every case, or ‘on the whole’, but statistically males do have an intellectual advantage. Something to keep in mind is that the variance is IQ among men is much greater than for women. Basically there are more males with abnormally low and abnormally high IQs. This moderates the averages. If you were to remove the sub 90′s for each group, the male average would be well above that of females.

    But beyond the psychometric basis, there’s the fact that women typically aren’t as interested in intellectual matters. This is true away from STEM domains. You see the same pattern in other challenging academic and research areas. It’s this lack of interest that explains the achievement gap. Because realistically you don’t have to have an IQ of 150 to do useful work in the sciences or engineering fields. The dearth of women in this fields is due to the fact that they are not interested in pursuing them. When they do, they’re much more likely to sidetrack themselves professionally by pursuing administrative and management roles rather than research.

  • Aldonza

    @tito

    “I’m pretty darn happy. I wouldn’t want to go back 40 years, 30, 20, or even 10 years.”

    ha! you’ll be ‘happy’ under any system. so long as it is cool and other girls are doing it.

    Um, unlikely. I’d have been miserable under the conditions that my mother had. I’m an intensely curious person, a problem-solver/creative thinker. I’d have been one of those women popping Valium to survive long-term stay-at-home motherhood. Or I’d have become one of those hyper-overachieving “tiger moms” who puts all her aspirations into her children, controlling every detail of their life.

    The world is a better place because I can direct those energies in more productive ways.

  • LJ

    I know I shouldn’t be jumping into this morass but this Hollenhund commenter is so delusional about rape it’s disturbing. Wanderer, you are a better more patient person than me for being able to try so long to get through to this person. First of all,

    It’s well-established that women fantasize about getting “ravished” and “swept off their feet” by attractive alphas that they know.

    Yeah, that’s called sex. If you’re confusing this experience with rape then maybe that’s where the problem is. I’d probably prefer that to cuckoldry myself.

    As someone else said, cuckoldry is fraud, theft, and deception, but rape is an act of VIOLENCE. I can’t believe people are discounting the importance of this, and the trauma it leaves in its wake, and the serious damage it causes to a victim’s ability to have healthy sexual relationships going forward.

  • Tom

    Cpollegeboy….
    Globalization will lead to a one world currency, one world government, no soventry for the United States (or anyone else) and basically a prison planet…
    not good, life as we know will be gone.

  • Höllenhund

    Yeah, that’s called sex. If you’re confusing this experience with rape then maybe that’s where the problem is.

    According to the current legal definition, it’s rape. She didn’t specifically say “yes”, maybe she even said “no” (although she didn’t actually mean it), she put up last minute resistance, he overpowered her, although not in a brutal way. It’s a standard fantasy found in many romantic novels. If the woman decides to accuse him of rape afterwards for whatever reason, there’s a rather high chance the man will be found guilty of rape. So yes, what I described is technically rape.

    Rape is an act of VIOLENCE. I can’t believe people are discounting the importance of this, and the trauma it leaves in its wake, and the serious damage it causes to a victim’s ability to have healthy sexual relationships going forward

    It’s bloody obvious you didn’t actually bother to read my comments. Oh well…

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Tom & others re globalization—it might be useful to define exactly what you mean by “globalization.” International trade has existed since ancient times; indeed, for many centuries transportation by water was much cheaper than transportation by land.

    Where do you draw the line between plain old trade, as it has always existed, and “globalization”?

  • LJ

    I’m pretty sure she has to say “no” for it to be rape, in a courtroom, unless she was so drunk or otherwise incapacitated to be unable to offer meaningful consent.

    If she actually wanted to have sex, then it’s not rape. She could try accusing the guy of rape later, and maybe he’d even get convicted, but he wouldn’t actually be guilty, because there was no crime, ie. no rape.

  • Tom

    @ VI
    At no point in human history has the average woman had it harder than the average man.
    _______________
    Really? Are you that clueless?

    Education for women in the 1800′s was a step to women equality. Early in the 1800′s women were not allowed to continue school after grammar school. If they wished, they could continue their studies privately because women were considered feeble minded, intellectually challenged, and could not study beyond grammar school. As the years rolled by, women protested that they too should have a right to learn and that it is unfair that men could go to college and they can’t. These brave women are our founding mothers of women education today.
    Oberlin College, in Ohio, was the first college to admit both men and women, blacks and whites. The women did not receive full equality but they still received a chance for higher education. They were offered the “Ladies Course”, which prepared them for motherhood, or the “Full Course”.

    After applying to many medical schools, Elizabeth Blackwell was finally accepted into Geneva Medical College in 1849. But the only reason that they accepted her was because they thought application was a hoax perpetrated by a rival college. She proved to the faculty and students at Geneva Medical College that a woman could do anything as well as a man. Elizabeth graduated at the head of her class.

    Before 1851, Sojourner Truth was not allowed to speak in public but in 1851 she was allowed to speak in front of an audience at a women’s rights convention. She captured the audience with her powerful and strong speech, “Ain’t I a Woman.” Sojourner continued fighting for women’s rights and captivating the audiences on the way. People listened to her preaching because they were true and strong.

    Women of the 1800′s did many things that led up to women’s recognition of equality in the 1900′s. These women fought so that they could have rights in equality, to be treated as human beings. They could not keep their own wages, children and sometimes even themselves. Education and job opportunities were very limited until women began to stand up and speak out. Whether they are young or old, everyone did something that led up to equality. Even if it was something little like refusing to marry who your father wants you to, that is one step to equality because that is saying that you have a mind of your own and that you should be able to choose who you will marry. :-)

    Saying women have never had it worse than men is like saying black people have never been held back.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Saying women have never had it worse than men is like saying black people have never been held back.

    Utter twaddle. I don’t want to get into a divisive position on this but it’s hard not to take offence when someone is comparing the lot of 19th century middle-class housewives with slavery.

    The fact of the matter is that for almost all of human history, & all animal history before it, life for both the male & female of the species has been a hard & dangerous fight for survival. Considerably more dangerous for males, but it’s hard all over. The divisive propaganda of hate movements like feminism only make it harder, for everyone.

  • Tom

    David,

    An interesting view of globalization

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-is-globalization.html

  • Tom

    Byron

    You think men would protest if women kept men from voting, going to college, wouldnt let them own anything, including money or property?
    You think men would protest if men were not allowed to play interscholastic sports for over 100 years.
    You think men would protest if they were not eveen allowed to work? you think men would protest if men did not get equal pay for equal work?
    You think young men might protest if some marriagees were prearranged?

    You bet your sweet ass men would protest

    THAT is what men did to women for a long time. Those are cold hard facts. Womenwere not considered equals in the workplace, politically, financially or socially.
    No women did not have it as bad as slaves, but they were only one rung above a mans dog.

  • Tom

    Byron in addition it has not been that long that a man was allowed to beat his wife at his on discression.

    LOL at you people who think women never had it bad….
    Im not a feminist, never read any of their material, but I am a father who will not tolerate discrimination towards his daughter because of her gender.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Tom, the argument is not if women had it “bad” but if the average woman had it worse than the average man

    In my opinion, no, they didnt, it was a tradeoff. But gender roles were very strict apparently, so for the people who didnt like their roles, they were fucked up

    Regarding all the stuff women werent allowed / able to do, there´s a matching list for stuff men werent allowed / able to do.

    Regarding going to work and getting money: surprise dude, thats a responsibility, not a “freedom” and most of these men used the money to provide to their families. Ever heard of the guy getting a paycheck and delivering it to the wife.

    Regarding domestic violence, I like to think thats not as common and that it was never as common as feminist wants it to be. Maybe Im wrong.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Tom,

    You think women would protest if 95% of all workplace deaths the world over were female?

    You think women would protest if they were taken from their homes & forced to kill & die in their millions on hellish battlefields for years at a time, cut in half & poison gassed, disabled & mutilated, faces half blown off, & would be publicly shamed & imprisoned for saying no?

    You think women would protest if they were forced to work? And while they were doing that, forced to support the men, who got to stay home all day instead, watching their children grow?

    You think women would protest if their children were routinely taken away from them & given to the men when their marriages ended?

    You think women would protest if they had to retire 5 years later than men, even though they died 5-10 years earlier than the men, at higer rates for all major diseases, worked to death?

    You think women would protest if their entire sex was portrayed as potential child abusers & violent rapists by the mainstream media?

    Yeah, so do I. But men didn’t. Just say thank you & leave it at that.

    Also, i don’t know where you hail from but in Britain it has never been legal for a man to beat his wife. More absurd propaganda from a misandric society.

  • collegeboy

    @Aldonza says:To me, ruthless is getting your own needs met to the complete disregard of anyone else’s. To survive in business you need at least a little bit of it, because expecting altruism in the workplace is a losing strategy, although some companies seem to foster more of that culture than others

    I totally agree. I previously stated that if others are individualists, you must follow their lead to survive. You don’t need a little bit of it in business, you need a good deal of it, while pretending to care about others.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    what Byron said

  • Tom

    yohami
    The average man was allowed to work.. women were not
    the average man was allowed to own property, women were not
    the average man was allowed to vote, women were not
    the average man was allowed vices, women were not
    the average man was allowed to go to college, women were not
    the average man could run for office, women could not.
    ETC the list goes on
    Yes life was different back then, but to claim women did not care they had no rights is ridiculous. Just the fact they had no rights made it worse. How would YOU feel if you had no rights?

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    Re: Huntering and Gathering

    Men who sat around in terry-cloth robes drinking tea from mugs so big you have to hold it with two hands and talking about their feelings… didn’t bag the wooly mammoth.

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    Feminism would never have become the law in this country if it did not serve Capitalism. Adding a second full-time income earner to the household hid the effect of inflation for decades (the value of the dollar today is 1/10th what it was in 1970; do most jobs pay 10x now what they did then?).

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Tom,

    Yes life was different back then, but to claim women did not care they had no rights is ridiculous. Just the fact they had no rights made it worse. How would YOU feel if you had no rights?

    Who is claiming any of that?

  • Tom

    byron in the united States it was legal to beat your wife clear into the1mid 1800`s

    http://www.pacwcbt.pitt.edu/Curriculum/310DomesticViolenceIssuesAnIntroductionforChildWelfareProfessionals/Handouts/HO3DomesticViolenceTimeline.pdf

    Thank you? Im a man dummy

  • Wanderer

    Is there any proof that male victims of, say, prison rape are as traumatized as female victims of “bad” rape, as you say? Is there proof that cuckolded men are not more traumatized than anally raped men?
    .
    A good question, my good Hellhound, and I would say there is some evidence that male victims of rape are as traumatized as female victims of “bad” rape are.
    .
    http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counselloradvice9907.html
    .
    Many male victims experience sexual arousal, erection or even ejaculation during the assault. Getting the victim to ejaculate is a major strategy for some perpetrators, symbolising the extent of the offenders control over his victim. These physical responses may be confused by the victim as indications of pleasure or unrecognised consent (Groth & Burgess1980). As a result the victim questions his own sexuality and may feel betrayed by his own body. Is my body telling me that I am actually gay? The risk of public humiliation or being labelled gay push the victim towards the option of remaining silent.
    .
    most males remained calm, composed and subdued. The male coping strategy characterised by denial and control renders them more prone to later psychiatric problems (emphasis added)
    .
    All of the victims experienced long term negative psychological and behavioural effects after the assault. In almost all cases these included depression, flashbacks, fantasies about revenge, anxiety, loss of self respect and an increased sense of vulnerability. The symptoms persisted in many cases for several years after the rape. Associated with fantasies about revenge against the assailant were feelings of anger and difficulty on controlling emotions. The loss of self respect made several victims feel uneasy in the company of males and in some cases lead to self-destructive behaviour including self-harm, alcohol and drug abuse and suicidal ideation or attempts. Around 70% of the victims experienced crises relating to their sexuality and masculinity after the rape. Some became sexually promiscuous but others found it difficult or impossible to resume sexual relations either because of reduced libido, impotence or because the whole idea of having sexual intercourse had become repulsive. One heterosexual man who had experienced an erection and ejaculation during the ordeal found it very difficult to equate his bodys physical responses with his own emotions at the time of rape.
    .
    Over 80% of the men experienced profound feelings of guilt and self blame for either putting themselves at risk in some way, or failing to prevent or fight back during the attack. This resulted in the men feeling a loss of self respect and self worth. At the time of the survey only one man felt that he had recovered from the ordeal, thirty one had made some steps towards recovery, but eight felt that they had not recovered at all.

    .
    I don’t wish to seem like a gratuitous guest (our hostess may find this discussion to be tiresome already), so I’ll stop there. Suffice it to say (I can provide more links if this one isn’t convincing enough) that male-on-male rape is traumatizing to such an extent that it would seem to falsify the evo-bio hypothesis of rape in general being traumatizing simply due to its effect on “reproductive resources.” I won’t say the experience of being raped is any worse than being cuckolded for a man, but it strikes me as sufficiently traumatizing as to cast a great deal of doubt on these sorts of evo-bio theories. Not to say such theories are entirely wrong, of course, but it is evidence that they’re not nearly as correct as you seem to believe.

  • Tom

    Yohami

    didnt you say,

    Tom, the argument is not if women had it “bad” but if the average woman had it worse than the average man

    In my opinion, no, they didnt, it was a tradeoff. But gender roles were very strict apparently, so for the people who didnt like their roles, they were fucked up.
    ________________

    My guess is not many “humans” like the role of a possession or the role of a subservieant

  • Tom

    Feminism would never have become the law in this country if it did not serve Capitalism. Adding a second full-time income earner to the household hid the effect of inflation for decades (the value of the dollar today is 1/10th what it was in 1970; do most jobs pay 10x now what they did then?).
    ++++++++++++++++
    not many but some do
    teachers made @ 5000 to 9000 in 1970..my buddy is a gym teacher and makes 81000..thats pretty close

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      teachers made @ 5000 to 9000 in 1970..my buddy is a gym teacher and makes 81000..thats pretty close

      This has more to do with the powerful teacher’s union than anything else. There’s always so much talk about teachers being underpaid. But 81K for 9 months of work? Not bad at all.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    They keyword being “worse”

    My guess is not many “humans” like the role of a possession or the role of a subservieant

    Men were also possessions and in subservient roles. We still are.

  • michel

    I don’t really see the point in arguing with someone like Tom (whose writing style seems suspiciously similar to jess’) but this is the exact kind of argument from tunnel vision I was talking about earlier:

    The average man was allowed to work.. women were not
    the average man was allowed to own property, women were not
    the average man was allowed to vote, women were not
    the average man was allowed vices, women were not
    the average man was allowed to go to college, women were not
    the average man could run for office, women could not.

    No, the “average man” wasn’tallowed to vote, or even to “own property” (whatever that means). Russian serfs didn’t earn their basic freedom to leave the land until 1861, and American men without land couldn’t vote until the mid 1830s (various legalistic means of keeping the poor from voting were still on the books until the 60s). Allowed vices? What? A vice is something that garners social opprobrium by definition, to suffer from vices has always been unacceptable regardless of your sex (I’m relatively sure he’s using flowery language to mean “smoking cigarettes” here, though).

    Rights like being able to run for office or go to college miss the glaringly obvious: average men didn’t do either of these things because again, by definition, they weren’t “average” activities. College was expensive; you were either the son of a very wealthy merchant, an aristocrat or an exceptional mind that left an impression on the faculty, otherwise those doors wouldn’t open no matter how manly you were.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t really see the point in arguing with someone like Tom (whose writing style seems suspiciously similar to jess’

      LOL, another commenter floats this theory.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Tom,

    the average man was allowed to vote, women were not

    The notion of ‘the right to vote’ is a breathtakingly recent development, considering how inextricable a part of the world’s culture it now is. In no country in any point in human history did the majority of men or women have the vote before the french & american revolutions. The idea of individual rights is one which only really began to take off in the wider world in the late 18th century. Due to the work of mainly men but also women throughout the 19th century, the concept of ‘votes for all’, rather than just for wealthy families & landowners became a possibility.

    In the 19th century in Britain there were 3 major voting reforms, gradually giving more & more votes to more people but still it is estimated that in the 1st world war, something like 9 out of 10 men who died didn’t have the vote. The majority of ‘men’ got the vote in 1918, same as the women. Because of the American revolution, the timeline is a little different in the U.S, & i don’t know so much about that particular country’s history, but the point is all this is a very recent phenomenon, wherever you look.

    Almost every generation that ever lived never had any ‘rights’.

    the average man was allowed to own property, women were not

    The average man didn’t own property. The rich owned property.

    the average man was allowed to go to college, women were not

    The average man never went to college. The average man worked on a farm.

    the average man could run for office, women could not.

    The ‘average man’ didn’t run for office. The average man died down a mine.

    the average man was allowed vices, women were not

    too petty to deal with

    The average man was allowed to work.. women were not

    Again, the idea of being ‘allowed’ to be a wage-slave is too silly to argue against. But besides that, in Europe & America, women did work, as cooks, maids, washerwomen, schoolteachers, it’s just most of the time they didn’t have to.

  • michel

    And the biggest whopper of all has always and will always be this so-called “right to work”. Newsflash, ladies: work is not fun; for the vast majority of human beings on the planet, work is something you do to stave off hunger, to keep a roof over your head. It’s otherwise dull drudgery only livened by the odd ribald joke or strange workplace accident. (Also, stop using the word “career”: no one is entitled to a “career”, because it’s just a stupid buzzword).

    I’m here reminded of Joan Didon’s assessment of this cloying phenomenon:

    An ex-wife and mother of three speaks of her plan “to play out my college girl’s dream. I am going to New York to become this famous writer. Or this working writer. Failing that, I will get a job in publishing.” She mentions a friend, another young woman who “had never had any other life than as a daughter or wife or mother” but who is “just discovering herself to be a gifted potter.” The childlike resourcefulness – to get a job in publishing, to be a gifted potter – bewilders the imagination. The astral discontent with actual lives, actual men, the denial of the real ambiguities and the real generative or malignant possibilities of adult sexual life, somehow touches beyond words.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Tom,

    in the united States it was legal to beat your wife clear into the mid 1800`s

    Again, i don’t know as much as you about your country, but America is a very young one, with a very recent set of laws, that were added to as the society grew & developed. Just because there’s not a law against molesting tadpoles doesn’t mean we should assume an epidemic of molested tadpoles. Laws come about once there is seen to be a societal problem that needs addressing, & also as the state grows larger.

    In America, there have been laws against wife beating since before the Revolution. By 1870, it was illegal in almost every state; but even before then, wife-beaters were arrested & punished for assault & battery.
    - Christina Hoff Sommers

    .

    It has often been claimed that wife-beating in nineteenth century america was legal… Actually, though, several states passed statutes prohibiting wife-beating; and at least one statute even predates the American Revolution. The Massachusetts Bay Colony prohibited wife-beating as early as 1655. The edict sates: “No man shall strike his wife nor any woman on penalty of such fine not exceeding ten pounds for one offence, or such corporal punishment as the County shall determine.”
    - Elizabeth Pleck, ‘Wife-Beating In Nineteenth-Century America’

    .
    Hoff-Sommers, referring to another book by Elizabeth Pleck, Domestic Tyranny, notes:

    Pleck makes the interesting point that modern attitudes to wife-battering are not that different from those of the nineteenth century – wife beaters are despised, and the public feels vindictive toward them.
    What has changed is that in the nineteenth century the punishment was more informal. The batterers were beaten up, whipped , and publicly shamed. Today, it is a matter for the courts: the punishment is often a restraining order, counselling, a suspended sentence, or a sever lecture from a disapproving judge or police officer. One advantage of the old system is that the batterer’s punishment did not depend on the victim turning him in. As Pleck says, “Third parties were watching a husband’s behaviour and reporting his misdeed to a policing group.” The sanctions such as whipping, shunning, and public shaming may have been the more powerful deterrents.

    .

  • michel

    Bear in mind that it makes no sociological sense whatsoever for wife-beating to be more common the further back one goes into the past. Today, urban anonymity has dissolved women’s normal male protection at the hands of their families, meaning it’s easier to get away with a crime; in the past, a man would be expected to keep in constant contact with his in-laws (even in nuclear Protestant cultures) and they would not approve of one of their daughters being mistreated.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Hi Michel,

    American men without land couldn’t vote until the mid 1830s (various legalistic means of keeping the poor from voting were still on the books until the 60s)

    This is really fascinating, i didn’t know that before. Is that the 1860′s or the 1960′s you are referring to?

  • namae nanka

    “he research, carried out by the Girls’ Schools Association (GSA) – an umbrella group representing 200 private girls’ schools – suggested that bright girls were failing to take up science and maths in a co-educational environment because they were intimidated by boys who were often rowdy and liked to show off.”

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/03/pc-whipped.html

    or maybe they are not rowdy, and hence girls get bored?

    “Wrong. Maria Goeppert-Mayer also won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1963.”

    Two women, I assumed that the other one was her daughter.

  • namae nanka

    “byron in the united States it was legal to beat your wife clear into the1mid 1800`s”

    and it is followed by a link which repeats the “rule of thumb” as the first point:

    “The states tried to break
    away from that law by saying that the husband is only allowed to whip his wife
    with a switch no bigger than his thumb. (Early 1500s)”‘

    http://www.debunker.com/texts/ruleofthumb.html

  • namae nanka

    and mentions:

    “Women were coming together with African Americans seeking their equal rights. ”

    lol

    http://open.salon.com/blog/edward_rhymes/2009/05/08/affirmative_action_its_a_white_thing_part_two

  • namae nanka

    it must be the patriarchal oppression!!
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51845.Women_of_the_Klan

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    nanka,

    yep, the ‘rule of thumb’, like the ‘pay gap’ or ’1 in 4′, is one of those ‘Terminator’ Lies – no matter how much you disprove them, they just keep coming. Once you know the story, someone using the Rule Of Thumb in an argument is pretty funny, but millions of people still believe it.

  • namae nanka

    and then there are straight-faced lies that resemble the one about “How schools shortchange girls”,

    http://www.acbr.com/biglie.htm

    and the sexual double standard?

    http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2011/03/slutty-studs.html

  • namae nanka

    Roy F. Baumeister’s works are pretty good reads. “Cultural Suppression of Female Sexuality” in the light of the above sexual double standard paper is a myth-breaker, and at the very least makes one rethink about their view of the world.

    Here’s another one of them:

    http://www.amazon.com/There-Anything-Good-About-Men/dp/019537410X

    ‘Male readers may find some solace in Roy F. Baumeister’s “Is There Anything Good About Men?” Mr. Baumeister is less concerned about the wimpification of modern man than about the degree to which men have been historically “exploited.” The very cultures that men have built, he says, have considered males more expendable than women… But men, Mr. Baumeister says, are often taken for granted and denigrated as the bane of female existence, with some gender activist insisting that women would be better off without them. In a feisty rejoinder, Mr. Baumeister says that “‘if women really would have been happier without men, they would have set up shop on their own long ago.”
    –Dave Shiflett, Wall Street Journal

  • ExNewYorker

    The average man was allowed to work.. women were not
    the average man was allowed to own property, women were not
    the average man was allowed to vote, women were not
    the average man was allowed vices, women were not
    the average man was allowed to go to college, women were not
    the average man could run for office, women could not.

    .
    This is one of the main problems of women, and feminists in particular (Tom probably being in one of those categories): Apex Fallacy. As Badger has often pointed out, most men are not at the Apex. The whole list above were things that your average man couldn’t do either. For your average man, life was worse than being a second class citizen…you were in some form of bondage (serfdom, slaverly, land tenantship, conscription, etc) and you were basically cannon fodder for those who ran the show. Being a second class citizen was a step up from this. Heck, 60% of men never reproduced…
    .
    So, back to the OP, it’s not surprising that Feminism wouldn’t really care too much “about the menz” (TM Marcotte). I mean, just look at the movement name…if it were about “equality” (in whatever measure), it would have been subsumed in the general Civil Rights movement. Problem is, if that had happened, they’d be forced to care “about the menz”, and that would just be a bad thing. It’s also part of the reason why a lot of WOC have issues with Feminism: they’re worried about their husbands, sons, fathers and the mainstream response from Feminism is to go to the next SlutWalk…

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Yes, Baumeister is spot-on. I’ve not been yet tracked down a copy of the book, but there’s a great lecture he gave about it a little while ago here:


    http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2010/10/is-there-anything-good-about-men.html

    I wonder if this is the longest ever HUS thread?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      I wonder if this is the longest ever HUS thread?

      No, there are a few that have gone to nearly 800 comments. This is a meaty one though.

  • collegeboy

    @Aldonza You don’t need a little bit of it in business, you need a good deal of it, while pretending to care about others. (to be really successful).

    I’m talking about people who make decisions for businesses (like directors, managers or consultants), if your successful you will be given decision making authority. A “good deal of it” refers to the act of pretending to care while really having other motives (politicians tell everyone what they want to hear, yet we don’t know on who’s side they are on until they are elected, same for CEOs.).

    Allot of problems can “only” be fixed by government, so as to spread the cost in a fair manner, like an insurance or a shared resource like a condo. However raising the minimum wage, over protecting women/older people, is a bad idea. I know that businesses will make ruthless decisions like fire people over 35-40yrs because they want to reduce risk. You must also cut costs, in order to stay/be competitive. Corporations get bought out, as a bargain if they are not competitive, so for them its compete or die.

    my opinion. taxes good. unfair laws bad. Government needs to understand that competition is difficult and that if they don’t enforce laws uniformly or fairly that they will cause chaos. Its like the referee in boxing. You need to set the ground rules (fairly) and enforce them uniformly. This is why corruption is bad.

  • michel

    This is really fascinating, i didn’t know that before. Is that the 1860′s or the 1960′s you are referring to?

    The 1960s (really!) Most states tried to circumvent allowing the poor to vote by imposing a poll tax at the ballot box, which was first combated by the 24th Amendment (notably over 40 years after the passing of the 19th, which enfranchised women). It took until Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections for the last of the “poll taxes” to close up, though.

  • collegeboy

    In globalization, laws aren’t enforced uniformly or fairly.

    In china workers have no rights. They even use slave prison labor or slaves.

    Additionally the cost of living is much lower for educated people. So intellectuals only do intellectual work and they leave everything else for the uneducated. No house chores, no significant physical work at work, etc.. Its not everyone is their own boss, like in U.S., the power relationship is clearly delineated to position (legitimate authority).

    People who have money, in the third world live like kings, not like what Susan described about china (its a minority, their are rich communities, isolated from the troubles). Some people who go to mexico love it (not anymore with all the corruption and drug wars), because of the freedom (for those with money) and because its so much fun to leave all the dirty work to others.

    Carlos Slim is the richest man in the world,he lives in mexico. You think he has a substandard living, hell no.

    Its cheap to remodel your house, fix your car, labor is cheap (even skilled) but its brutal for poor people.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    So when the discussion turns interesting, feminists disappear?

    They always do this to me. We need relationship counseling.

  • namae nanka

    Again from Tom’s link:

    “Congress began passing laws that prohibited discrimination against women in
    employment and requiring equal pay for equal work. (1965) ”

    while Warren Farrell points out:

    Yes, there it was, in an appendix: Census Bureau figures show that even during the 1950s, (which Alex studies in ancient history class!) there was less than a 2% pay gap between never married women and men, and never-married white women between 45 and 54 earned 106% of what their never-married white male counterparts made.

    http://www.warrenfarrell.org/Links/

    (the last one, provocatively titled “How I Began the Discovery that Men Earn Less than Women for the Same Work” )

    So legalising it, and then continuing to pontificate why women are a few percentage points behind men in some professions serves what other purpose than putting women ahead the same way girls are placed ahead in schools? SAT becomes discriminatory, less women making it to the top positions in academia becomes the glass ceiling, bias, old boys network, etc etc.

    “I wonder if this is the longest ever HUS thread?”

    my apologies, the assortment of lies over which feminism is built(and then having to lie again and again or creating pointless issues like the “unconscious bias”) is simply humongous. Maybe some society in the future will be capable of allowing such social engineering in accordance with the feminist wishes, but I don’t think the current one will be able to sustain it.

    I was reminded of Baumeister from this post:
    http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/is-there-anything-good-about-men/

  • Höllenhund

    So when the discussion turns interesting, feminists disappear?

    They will just change the subject again, ask rethorical questions and pretend the discussion never turned interesting.

  • Doug1

    Jess–

    Mike c- what is feminism?
    I have always seen it myself as trying to overturn injustices against women but in a very humane context. I have never seen it as a male bashing exercise.

    That’s ridiculous. Since the 80s at least feminism has been suffused with misandry. There was lots of male bashing in the 60′s and 70′s too but then it tended to be directed at the older generation of men.

  • collegeboy

    its important to note that mexico isn’t china (and its not even close, if you need a liver, or an organ you can buy one from the Chinese prisons for about $20k, that’s capitalism for you, boy they are quick learners).

    Most people aren’t starving in Mexico. (They also have free universal healthcare and private health care). The poor workers will protest if they are ripped off (off course corporate doesn’t like this). And feminism has already taken over in mexico.

    Mexico is having a really hard time competing with china (mexico has unionized labor and government protects workers, a little too much).

  • SayWhaat

    The whole list above were things that your average man couldn’t do either. For your average man, life was worse than being a second class citizen

    Okay…so then what about the average man’s wife? Where was her lot in life, if her husband, the sole provider of resources, couldn’t afford these privileges?

  • SayWhaat

    And feminism has already taken over in mexico.

    Oh man, Abbot is gonna freak.

    (Can you point to some sources on this, btw?)

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “In globalization, laws aren’t enforced uniformly or fairly”

    The fact that laws aren’t enforced uniformly or fairly in, for example, China has nothing to do with globalization. If the rest of the world cut off all trade with China, would that cause the laws in that country to be enforced more uniformly/fairly?

    “In china workers have no rights. They even use slave prison labor or slaves”…True statements (although NO rights may be a little strong). But there are a lot fewer people living in desperate, starvation-level poverty in China than there were a few decades ago, and *trade* is one of the primary reasons for this. The guy who created the container-freight industry did more to reduce global poverty than all the foreign-aid bureaucrats ever hatched.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    SayWhaat,

    Okay…so then what about the average man’s wife? Where was her lot in life, if her husband, the sole provider of resources, couldn’t afford these privileges?

    Where was her lot in life? nowhere, but where was men´s lot anyway?

  • collegeboy

    Equality means that we all everyone’s labor is very expensive and that’s not fun, because we have to do more stuff our selves. instead of hiring others. taken to an extreme either way is bad

    @david foster

    I’m sorry. I’m trying to survive myself. The condition of the Chinese peasants doesn’t even register, in my brain ( I wouldn’t want to trade places with them). I do thank the Chinese for taking very drastic measures to cut their population growth.

    I wish them well. I hope they can stop having so many babies and fix their corrupt government, but we have to worry about our government (first).

    Yes.

    China is just one country, but its the extreme example of what can happen, when choosing trading partners. The U.S. isn’t in China to actually help the Chinese people, we are there because there is money to be made. I’m concerned that its harming U.S. people.

    China isn’t buy very much from the U.S., this isn’t fair trade. Other countries are also like this. I’m impressed by the way Germany is handling globalization. They are well connected and they are benefiting from globalization. its not all win, but they aren’t going to lose.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Okay…so then what about the average man’s wife? Where was her lot in life, if her husband, the sole provider of resources, couldn’t afford these privileges?

    I think the point made is that gender and class go usually hand on hand. The powerful always have access to more if they want to, male and female.
    Poor commoners didn’t have as many choices regardless the gender.
    A woman had to get married and have children to gain some social status, but you think a single man was admired? No way. Men also needed a wife and children to gain status (till recently a barren marriage was considered unblessed by God, for example).
    The way the roles were organized were complementary I woman didn’t know how to earn money in the way a man would, but she knew how cook,clean, sew and run a house, including budgeting it. A man didn’t learn any of this and was totally dependent of his wife, hence the “here is my monthly paycheck honey” meme.
    It was a cooperative with no many choices for anyone. Feminists make you believe that poor bastard working on a mine 14 hours was having fun while his wife was slaving herself on the kitchen. They both were slaving themselves, capisce?

  • collegeboy

    I mean the German people, not their companies. They still have strong unions, manufacturing and lots of money.

  • Doug1

    Aldonza—

    Oy…the cuckold meme still lurks. Heinous fraud, yes. Equivalent to rape? I have trouble with that one, but I’m not going to debate how people feel if it happened to them (to be distingushed from how people *think* they’d feel in the hypothetical blog comment world.) Common? I doubt it, and I’m far from alone.

    I think cuckolding in the sense of not only cheating on her husband but bearing another man’s child that the husband is duped into supporting and caring for as his own, is much worse than even real rape, which doesn’t make her pregnant. Even if it does, she can have an abortion or give the child for adoption.

    Most middle class men and their wives today feel they can only afford in money and time to optimally raise one or two or at most three children. Giving one or two of those slots to the genes of another man, while duping her husband into being provider and parent instead of to his own genetic children is devastating. It goes on for 18-22 years, not just a half hour. Further the state stands behind her deception if he gets divorced over this or other issues, at least unless he discovers it within a year or at most two of birth. That’s outrageous; her only recourse should be child support=also stealth alimony from the bio dad.

    I think feminists greatly exaggerate the trauma of even real rape on most well experienced women. For a virgin who feels it’s of key importance in her religious community to remain a virgin until married or engaged, or a woman who’s only had sex with her husband it might often be highly traumatizing, but to a woman who’s had twenty consensual partners, I doubt it for long. And yes I’ve known women who have said they were raped.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    stephanie,

    The way the roles were organized were complementary – a woman didn’t know how to earn money in the way a man would, but she knew how to cook,clean, sew and run a house, including budgeting it. A man didn’t learn any of this and was totally dependent of his wife, hence the “here is my monthly paycheck honey” meme.
    It was a cooperative with not many choices for anyone. Feminists make you believe that poor bastard working in a mine 14 hours was having fun while his wife was slaving in the kitchen. They both were slaving, capisce?

    Funny thing is, that WAS my grandparents: my grandfather DID work down in the mines, & i remember as a child seeing him hand over his wagepacket at the end of the working week to my grandmother, who ran the whole show, keeping only enough for a single pint down the pub that night.

    Thanks for painting that memory back for me!
    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      i remember as a child seeing him hand over his wagepacket at the end of the working week to my grandmother, who ran the whole show, keeping only enough for a single pint down the pub that night.

      I didn’t know my father’s grandmother, but she was known in the family as “Old Nell.” She ruled with an iron fist, and allowed only one pint on a Friday. Grandpa Willie was a gentle poet who worked for the Post Office. I suspect he liked his drink and would have gone deep into the cups if not for her. I am thankful, having read so many memoirs where the week’s wages were pissed away at the pub and the children went hungry, e.g. Angela’s Ashes. This discipline on her part undoubtedly is still being felt today, three generations later.

  • collegeboy

    Stephenie Rowling: They both were slaving themselves, capisce?

    I agree. But the conditions have changed. Women want to play by the old rules (hypergamy, golddiggers,etc..).

    It used to be that was the only way to survive. In which case I say do whatever you have to do, find a home and put food on the table. Things in the past used to be absolutely horrible, it was hell on earth for everyone.

    This is no longer the case, as women can achieve their goals through work/entrepreneurship , instead of marriage.

  • collegeboy

    @Stephenie Rowling:

    Old rules: Woman is employed by husband to care for children and home. Women obviously want to find the husband who would pay the best salary, looks didn’t matter.

    New rules: Men\women are almost equal (babies are what keep women from earning more, there is a GAO study on this). You have to chose between a man who is your economic equal (hypogamy) or who earns less (there’s a jargon for this, I can’t find it).

    If you want to have babbies you might actually want to chose a male who earns less, but is co-operative, because his time is not as valuable compared to yours, and you can actually save money but he needs to learn to speak baby and start doing house hold chores. Same for men who want babies. The problem here is trust, loyalty, etc. The money maker needs to have more power, to reduce risk.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Thanks for painting that memory back for me!

    You are welcome. :)
    This was not the case in my particular household, my father was a mechanic but women in my mother’s family had always added money to the household so my mother used to sell baked goods while taking care of us, study when were at school and then got a job as a teacher, then she got two degrees at college (in fact we even shared teachers at a point, that was interesting :)) and she had four kids. But being working class I was surrounded by more traditional households so I know that it was hard for both.

  • collegeboy

    @Stephenie Rowling:

    Babies are very expensive.

    Look at things from the perspective of paying your spouse to care for the baby. nothing in this life should be free. Like others have said, don’t just give them money, make them work for it. You’re giving them a job. the problem is the merging of money, within marriage. It kills the work ethic (no power attached to money=favors).

  • Stephenie Rowling

    If you want to have babbies you might actually want to chose a male who earns less, but is co-operative, because his time is not as valuable compared to yours, and you can actually save money but he needs to learn to speak baby and start doing house hold chores. Same for men who want babies. The problem here is trust, loyalty, etc. The money maker needs to have more power, to reduce risk.

    I always though that the best arrangement was for every couple to realize weakness and strengths and act accordingly. My mother was the primary caretaker when were young, but my father became the primary caretaker when we were independent enough (around 6 for the youngest) with the older kids helping as much as they could, when she decided to go back to school. My father took care of paying the bills (house, phone, food) my mother purchased the big things because she had more buying power (televisions, computers, furniture), they had adjusted this arrangements many times depending in practicality and they are still together 34 years after the fact. So flexibility is probably also a good trait for a long marriage.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I will say that babies are expensive because you make them more expensive here. I still don’t understand the mechanics but my best friend earns a 6th of what my husband make back in my country and she can comfortably afford three kids, including everything, school and clothes, ice cream and visits.Of course there is paid maternity leave, affordable daycare and all that. But still I think there is not this paranoid ideas that if I don’t buy the latest Mozart babies package my kid is going to be a failure! So is a lot cheaper to raise babies in some other countries, YMMV.

  • collegeboy

    @Stephenie Rowling: I still don’t understand the mechanics but my best friend earns a 6th of what my husband make back in my country and she can comfortably afford three kids, including everything, school and clothes, ice cream and visits.

    what you describe is inflation, but there is more to it. corruption will create monopolies and make the price of everything go up, education, interest rates, food, energy, etc..

    if allot of people start going hungry, then the price of stuff might start going down, that’s what its like in third world countries. The problem is insecurity, because people will steal and women will become gold diggers, etc.

    Republican’s aren’t the answer to inflation as they love monopolies and corruption, more than democrats. but this is a bipartisan issue as things have been getting progressively worse since the 80′s (Clinton sold us out at the end of his term). More people need to start demanding a better government with a emphasis on ending corruption before expanding government services.

  • collegeboy

    @Stephenie Rowling:

    There is also the concept of disposable income. Income that you can spend after you have covered all of your necessities ( even savings).

    There’s isn’t much of that here anymore. its all credit.

  • Mike C

    There is also the concept of disposable income. Income that you can spend after you have covered all of your necessities ( even savings).

    There’s isn’t much of that here anymore. its all credit.
    .
    Actually, many people have plenty of disposable income IF they had their priorities straight. The real problem is that the religion of Americans really isn’t Christianity….it is Consumerism/Materialism. Most worship at the Church of Mall with the road to happiness being more stuff/keeping up with the Joneses. If Bob down the street bought a new car, I have to. If Mary has her kids in super expensive private school, then I have to as well.
    .
    The ultimate hamster wheel is really the one of work more, buy a bigger house, take on more debt, work more to service the debt, etc.

  • collegeboy

    @Mike C: The ultimate hamster wheel is really the one of work more, buy a bigger house, take on more debt, work more to service the debt, etc.

    Your right, for some very visible segment of people (feels like most, but it isn’t).

    but the cost of the basic necessities, like healthcare is becoming too expensive.

    80% of bankruptcy’s were because of healthcare. women more likely to declare bankruptcy and children were the issue most cited (I also know some very irresponsible mothers who, spent to much). but for the majority including those who are responsible things are getting worse.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Mike C
    I actually pretty much agree another thing people wants and needs are one and the same here, I grew up with my basics and a couple of luxuries and I don’t fill I missed out anything important. Another thing that I had seen here is people throwing food when they are full (parties, restaurants). That is pretty much a sin in my country were people still starve. I have to bite my tongue not to be a nag and tell them to try and at least take it home or give it to homeless people. I’m pretty sure people would save a lot of money in food if they just take things home in a bag and eat it later. I know we do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie, @Mike C
      The concept of “the millionaire next door” is huge. People who save habitually, contribute everything they can to employer-matched savings plans, and let the interest compound indefinitely. It’s so smart.

      My husband grew up poor, and his father was a blue-collar employee of a Fortune 500 company. His parents scrimped and saved. My husband remembers dinners that were a can of Campbell’s soup shared among four. They couldn’t pay for college, so my husband took on debt. But they never gave up, and eventually the stock of that company became worth quite a bit.

      In contrast, my own father, who was a successful corporate marketing executive, lived pretty much paycheck to paycheck. I remember he put my brother’s MIT tuition on Mastercard. We always had nice clothes, roast beef on Sundays, nice homes to live in. I grew up with no needs unmet. We were solidly upper middle class.

      Today, my husband’s mother is worth considerably more than my father. It’s a striking real-life example of frugality vs. consumption.

  • namae nanka

    “Okay…so then what about the average man’s wife? Where was her lot in life, if her husband, the sole provider of resources, couldn’t afford these privileges?”

    A son is a son till he gets him a wife, but a daughter’s a daughter the rest of your life.

    “Have we had enough feminism yet?”

    No, we need more stuff like this.

    http://theantifeminist.com/no-woman-should-be-sent-to-prison-says-womens-justice-task-force

    and good laws that can provide justice like this:
    “Very shortly, throughout Europe, any man ‘caught’ clicking on a sexy young cartoon character’s picture, will face a MANDATORY two years in prison…”

    (not mere bluster, “Simon Lundström was convicted of possessing 50 odd manga images – defined as child porn – and ordered to pay £500.”)

    in other news, “UK Man Jailed for Sexual Assaults Committed 45 Years Ago…When He Was 12 Years Old!”

    “In other remarks that triggered anger, Germaine Greer claimed young girls could be sexualised by ‘kissing their fathers goodnight’.”

    See, righteous women setting lecherous men’s natures straight. After all these thousands of years of rape and pillaging, men can finally become real human beings.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    “In other remarks that triggered anger, Germaine Greer claimed young girls could be sexualised by ‘kissing their fathers goodnight’.”

    WTF!!
    Ms Greer whatever sick feelings you have for your father will you please not tell us…ever?

  • jess

    wow… gone for 24 hours and so many comments…. so many new posters.
    .
    to collegeboy re rape message to me,
    .
    thanks so much- it made me a lot happier after a terrible day at work.
    .
    to Tom re: us
    .
    Oh no! They have found us out! Our curious mix of sanity and plain English has revealed we are one and the same!!
    .
    Aldonza- re just being you really
    .
    I have a hunch you have a set of bright, intensely loyal and fun friends. Lucky them.
    .
    LJ- re sanity
    .
    Yeah breathtaking comments on rape huh? I’m kind of a lapsed feminist really and then you see some of the comments and it breaks your heart and then you realise its just as well the more ‘full on’ pressure groups exist. There still ARE guys like that out there. Chilling.
    .
    Steph- awesome comment a while back with the 2 contrived scenarios. Brain popping stuff.
    .
    Tom & Aldonza- re history,
    .
    thank you for providing a better historical perspective. I am always mindful that Susan says 100′s come here and read but never post. So its good to keep encouraging them to keep an open mind and look at all the evidence out there

  • jess

    nanka re girls stripping a guy
    .
    what an awful experience for a 12 yo boy. thats gonna stay with him for a while. I would expect the girls to be expelled and charged by the police. End of.
    .
    If 3 boys had stripped a girl and videoed it i’m sure they would have had harsh treatment.
    .
    But is it rape? – well I cant see how it could be. If they had worn strap on dildos and raped him anally then I suppose so but they didnt.
    .
    so im confused as to the point you are making.

  • jess

    Hollunhund,
    .
    You have been around for a while so I guess you cant be trolling but one of your earlier comments seemed to suggest that you thought that the damage a women suffers from an alleyway rape has somehow been exaggerated by the feminist movement.
    .
    Well I can give a personal perspective here which I hope (perhaps in vain), you will appreciate..
    .
    I used to work with rape victims years ago (the alleyway type) as well as supporting domestic violence victims.
    .
    I have no idea about the impact on male victims but it looks like other posters have found some studies.
    .
    I have worked with several girls that have gone onto attempt or commit suicide post rape attack. Years ago, I worked with a woman who was attacked so severely she nearly died from her injuries. The case didn’t break till CCTV footage was eventually located. She survived, saw her assailants convicted ( I was with her in court) and still committed suicide some 4 or so years later.

    Up to that point I had actually considered her one of the bravest and most well adjusted rape survivors. Well I got that wrong. It was one of the reasons I refused promotion and shifted the focus of my career.
    .
    Rape victims or child abuse victims suffer terribly and often suffer relationship problems, panic attacks, clinical depression and suicidal tendancies.
    .
    Susan- you know young guys read this blog and I know you take this responsibility seriously. Is there anyway now that we can moderate some of the comments on rape? I know you hate censor, as do I, put are some things beyond the pale?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Susan- you know young guys read this blog and I know you take this responsibility seriously. Is there anyway now that we can moderate some of the comments on rape? I know you hate censor, as do I, but are some things beyond the pale?

    Feminism in action.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      Honestly, I loathe censorship in the comments. I haven’t seen anything here that warrants deleting. I regularly delete comments that are highly misogynist, racist or anti-Semitic. I would also delete misandrist comments but have not had to so far. I admit I keep the bar very high. If it doesn’t totally infuriate me, I generally leave it be. That doesn’t mean you have to stick around and read them of course. And you are always free to debate.

  • karen

    @MikeC,

    I agree with your comment regarding people buying more stuff to keep up with the JONESES. However, things have also gotten expensive. My first apartment after college was in a mid-sized city. That first year was my first time ever really buying groceries for my self. Two years later I was buying less groceries but spending more money. I would buy generic brands when I could but I was still spending more money. Everything has just gotten so expensive and after paying for necessities most people don’t have much left over.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Susan,

    I wonder if that was a working man’s tradition then, the single pint on a friday? Funny you should have recollection of it too.

    My dad – who has always been fond of the vine – once told me we were so poor when me & my brother were young that he didn’t have a drink in 5 years, as we couldn’t afford it…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron
      In the U.S. there was a tradition where a “growler” – a galvanized pail – would often be filled at the pub and transported home. This was a good scenario. Worse was the husband who went straight to the pub and drank all his wages. The men who were limited to a single pint were husbands of very strong women – my great-grandmother had eight children. My own grandfather, the second oldest, dropped out of school at 14 to help support the family. He became the Fire Chief in Brooklyn, NY. But 6 of them went to college, and two became lawyers.

      My family was Irish – probably not very different from working class British. Maybe they liked their drink more :)

      P.S. For a man to forego drink for 5 years to provide for his family is highly admirable. I respect that enormously.

  • Mike C

    The concept of “the millionaire next door” is huge. People who save habitually, contribute everything they can to employer-matched savings plans, and let the interest compound indefinitely. It’s so smart.
    .
    “The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest”

    Albert Einstein
    .
    The vast majority of people don’t understand the power of compounding because most people can’t think exponentially. It truly is amazing especially if you start young enough. Obviously, I’m cherry-picking but Warren Buffett ran 100,000 into $50 billion from 1950 to present through the power of compounding (of course he is the Michael Jordan of investing).
    .
    http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art44195.asp
    .
    But this is the sort of thing that ties back to things like discipline, future time orientation, etc.
    .
    Still wondering if I can do 20-25% annually the next 30 years? :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Still wondering if I can do 20-25% annually the next 30 years?

      Wow, if you can, would you consider leaving me a small bequest in your will?

  • jess

    SW- censureship,
    .
    yes – you have been very restrained and thats a good thing- never easy to know where the line is to be drawn.
    .
    It wasnt so much about offence to me personally although of course I am saddened and alarmed to read such attitudes from some of the men here.
    .
    My worry is that a rapist might read your threads and draw some comfort from some of the posts. “Gee, maybe what I did wasnt so awful”
    .
    or even worse might persuade a ‘would be rapist’ that ‘its not that big a deal’.
    .
    You know I think false allegations appalling and I also object to the misuse of the word rape- but Im talking about, convicted beyond reasonable doubt, violent sexual offenders. I do worry when some here make light of such awful crimes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My worry is that a rapist might read your threads and draw some comfort from some of the posts. “Gee, maybe what I did wasnt so awful”
      .
      or even worse might persuade a ‘would be rapist’ that ‘its not that big a deal’.

      I see absolutely nothing in these threads that meet this description. Quotes please.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    My worry is that a rapist might read your threads and draw some comfort from some of the posts. “Gee, maybe what I did wasnt so awful”

    That’s right, because Susan’s blog is a well known hanging out spot for rapists – those convicted beyond reasonable doubt, violent sexual offenders. Between that & the paedophilia i’m surprised it’s stayed up for so long.

  • Abbot

    “the trial was a monumental waste of taxpayer money”

    .
    Yep, just another subsidy to satisfy mal adjusted poorly parented attention seekers and fund the rape industry.
    .
    This article is speeding around the world to most news outlets. Finally, the massive false rape accusation culture in the US is exposed.
    .
    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201106/kevin-driscoll-rape-charges-jail-assault-stigma-reputation
    .
    Precedent is set.
    .
    and finally, to really rub in some salt-
    .
    assistant D.A. Jody Vaughan, who was prosecuting Kevin’s case, has been dismissed from her post. Awwww

  • SayWhaat

    http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201106/kevin-driscoll-rape-charges-jail-assault-stigma-reputation
    .
    Precedent is set.

    I don’t know if this will actually set a precedent, though I hope it will. If he had more finances he could launch a nuclear-sized defamation suit against his accuser. I can’t believe that she actually went all the way to trial to cover her ass. And to think, if only he hadn’t cheated on his fiancee, this would never have happened to him.

    I think it’s a little noteworthy that it was his female friends who supported him through the ordeal. He’s also managed to land himself another girlfriend despite all that. Interesting.

  • Höllenhund

    I’m pretty sure she has to say “no” for it to be rape, in a courtroom,

    What if she says no but at the same time offers no serious physical resistance, finds the guy to be an attractive alpha and presses no charges? Is that rape or not?

    If she actually wanted to have sex, then it’s not rape.

    We’re talking about a man overpowering a woman’s initial resistance before having rough sex with her. By all accounts this is a common female rape fantasy, usually found in romantic novels as well. You can say it’s not rape but that’s like saying if someone steals my wallet and I don’t report it to the police, it’s not theft.

    By the way, your comment seems to prove my opinion that anti-rape laws aren’t objective – they are completely based on women’s whims.

    She could try accusing the guy of rape later, and maybe he’d even get convicted, but he wouldn’t actually be guilty, because there was no crime, ie. no rape.

    No. If he is convicted, legally speaking he’s guilty. Even if this doesn’t happen, the false rape accusation will ruin his life.

  • Höllenhund

    You have been around for a while so I guess you cant be trolling but one of your earlier comments seemed to suggest that you thought that the damage a women suffers from an alleyway rape has somehow been exaggerated by the feminist movement.

    That’s not what I said, although I definitely think feminism exaggerates the prevalence and threat of rape for its own political ends. What I suggested was that women don’t seem to believe all rapes are equal. If an attractive alpha (that she knows) forces himself onto her (not brutally, but it’s still forced), overpowering her decidely squeamish resistance, she has been “swept off her feet”, “ravished” etc. If a computer programmer beta nerd that she knows does exactly the same thing, it’s a horrible experience, a trauma, the guy should be castrated and then butt-raped in prison etc. There’s no wonder Whoopi Goldberg used the phrase “rape-rape”. Apparently there’s “non-rape-rape”.

  • Höllenhund

    My worry is that a rapist might read your threads and draw some comfort from some of the posts. “Gee, maybe what I did wasnt so awful”
    .
    or even worse might persuade a ‘would be rapist’ that ‘its not that big a deal’.

    The denial of female rape fantasies would be an act of disservice to both men and women. In one of my comments I linked to an interview with a woman who advocates cuckoldry. Such female views are not uncommon. There are also articles elsewhere about masochist betas who fetishize cuckoldry. We could say all this should be censored because a cuckoldress could draw comfort from them and say “what I did wasn’t so awful” or even convince a woman that cuckoldry is not such a big deal after all. But that would also be a disservice to clueless betas, because we can probably all agree that they should be aware of the threat of such women preying on them.

  • jess

    SW- re rape,
    .
    The last 3 or 4 posts make my point better than I could myself.
    .
    The hint here is that ‘women secretly want to be raped’ or that rape victims ‘cry rape because their assailants aren’t handsome enough’.
    .
    C’mon Susan you have a daughter- even if this stuff doesn’t infuriate you it must worry you on some level surely?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess et al
      Women do fantasize about rape. It’s well documented. Studies have hooked up sensors to women’s vaginas and detected arousal during rape scenarios. However, female fantasies nearly always cast the rapist as a “favored male.” This might be someone you’re seeing, wish you were seeing, a celebrity, even your husband.

  • Höllenhund

    The hint here

    Maybe you should stop looking for “hints” everywhere.

    C’mon Susan you have a daughter

    She also has a son. Why aren’t you loudly complaining about that interview with that cuckoldress slut? He also faces risks in life, you know.

    On a different note, this comment from a woman says a lot:

    Maybe being roughly ravished makes us feel wildly desired and able to be released ourselves from any constraints since he’s showing the constraints are off.

    Context is everything though. If I watch a movie with Errol Flynn as a pirate threatening to take the main female character for his own pleasure it seems pretty yummy.However, if someone was at the mercy of a Somali pirate in the same way, I would be hoping the woman had a “neutering” gun or knife hidden away somewhere

    .

    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2011/05/living-with-big-cat.html?showComment=1304949814611#c2143666071707141385

    See? If he’s Errol Flynn, it’s yummy. If it’s a Somali pirate, he deserves a horrible death – even though the act is the same.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    susan, i’ve just tried to post a response here 3 times with no success, are you vetting the comments?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron
      Sorry, I don’t know why my spam filter kept catching you. It is just random, very frustrating I know. I have gotten your comment out of moderation and whitelisted you for the future.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    C’mon Susan you have a daughter

    Again, i don’t really see what is so controversial here. Is Jess really claiming she believes some women don’t have fantasies from time to time about being ‘taken’ ‘against their will’? Has she never read My Secret Garden? Has she never read any romance novels?

    More women report having rape fantasies than men do, in fact the majority of women report having rape fantasies, at least at some point in their lives.

    While not attempting to stigmatize the women who have these fantasies, what needs addressing is that in the current climate of hysteria (perpetuated entirely by feminism) both women & men are terrified of rape – both of being raped & mistakedly carrying out a rape. To men, there are much greater repercussions, because while Scarlett O’Hara cannot sent to prison for 15 years for living out her fantasy, Rhett Butler, for helping her out with it, can.

    Real-life rape is, as Christina Hoff-Sommers has said, a uniquely horrible crime, which (understandably) brings up extremely emotional responses in people. But it is precisely because it is such a serious crime, & causes such strong emotional reactions when it is discussed that it needs to be discussed, calmly & rationally, to ascertain the truth about its prevalance & causes, so that society may better know how to deal with it.

    Feminism, as Jess here is demonstrating, attempts to silence ANY discussion about rape – or for that matter, false-rape accusations – which is not simply adding to the hysteria. This benefits no-one whatsoever, the only purpose it serves is to prop up a fanatical, hateful ideology.

  • chris

    @ Höllenhund
    .

    Do you have any scientific study/research which backs up that claim?
    .
    It is backed up by basic evo psych. Eggs expensive, sperm cheap – this has been true for hundreds of thousands of years, although it doesn’t apply to the same extent today. Men are programmed to sacrifice for women and children, since this maximizes the reproductive success of the entire species. Women are mostly interested in self-preservation, since they are a greater reproductive resource.

    .
    You need empirical evidence to prove the truth value of that statement otherwise you are just formulating a ‘just so story’.
    .
    “A just-so story, also called the ad hoc fallacy, is a term used in academic anthropology, biological sciences, social sciences, and philosophy. It describes an unverifiable and unfalsifiable narrative explanation for a cultural practice, a biological trait, or behaviour of humans or other animals. The use of the term is an implicit criticism that reminds the hearer of the essentially fictional and unprovable nature of such an explanation. Such tales are common in folklore and mythology (where they are known as etiological myths — see etiology).” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story
    .
    I could equivalently come up with a rationalisation reaching the opposite conclusion.
    .
    ‘Just so stories’ like yours are what brings the fields related to the biological/evolutionary basis of human behaviour, i.e. evolutionary psychology, human ethology, socio-biology, into disrepute.
    .
    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology#.22Just-So_Stories.22
    .
    Stop it. Back up you claims with empirical evidence, that is, scientific studies/research, or state that what you are saying is merely your opinion, NOT A FACT.
    .
    .
    .
    @Everyone who thinks cuckoldry isn’t equal to rape
    .
    For all the women who think cuckoldry cannot possibly be the equivalent of rape I honestly believe that you only think that way because as women you can’t understand how men would feel about being cuckolded.
    .
    “Men and women suffer different types of costs from their partner’s dalliances, and thus evolutionary psychologists expect that men and women would have inherited overlapping but different sets of emotions, cognitive biases, and behavioural responses to the threat of or actual extra-pair mating.” From http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP05358362.pdf
    .
    The fact of the matter is men and women undergo different ‘brain organisation’ in the womb which results in men and women being ‘primed’ to respond to certain situations differently.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation#Brain_differentiation
    .
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17875490
    .
    http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/PDF/640_TD_sexdiffnotes.pdf
    .
    .
    Furthermore, sexual jealousy by men has been shown to be linked to this sexual differentiation.
    .
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911001413
    .
    Male Sexual Jealousy
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0162309582900279
    .
    Sexual jealousy as a facultative trait: Evidence from the pattern of sex differences in adults from China and the United States (it appears that the more sexually permissive the society the higher the degree of sexual jealousy in men AND women.)
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0162309595000577
    .
    Sex differences in the motivation and mitigation of jealousy – induced interrogations (This one is very interesting)
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886908004492
    .
    Evolution, Sex, and Jealousy: Investigation With a Sample From Sweden
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513898000464
    .
    Morbid jealousy -from an evolutionary psychological perspective
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513807000499
    .
    Relief over the disconfirmation of the prospect of sexual and emotional infidelity
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886907003480
    .
    Perceived risk of female infidelity moderates the relationship between men’s personality and partner-directed violence
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092656609001767
    .
    Sexual differentiation doesn’t just stop in the womb.
    See Female Brain by Dr. Louann Brizendine
    http://fora.tv/2006/11/17/Female_Brain
    .
    See Male Brain by Dr. Louann Brizendine
    http://fora.tv/2010/03/31/Dr_Louann_Brizendine_The_Male_Brain
    .
    .
    Now I have not found any studies done quantifying the emotional turmoil experienced by women who have experienced rape vs. men who have experienced cuckoldry. The closest I have found is this.
    .
    Testing the Cuckoldry Risk Hypothesis of Partner Sexual Coercion in Community and Forensic Samples
    http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/ep07164178.pdf
    .
    “Abstract: Evolutionary theory has informed the investigation of male sexual coercion but has seldom been applied to the analysis of sexual coercion within established couples. The cuckoldry risk hypothesis, that sexual coercion is a male tactic used to reduce the risk of extrapair paternity, was tested in two studies. In a community sample, indirect cues of infidelity predicted male propensity for sexual coaxing in the relationship, and direct cues predicted propensity for sexual coercion. In the forensic sample, we found that most partner rapists experienced cuckoldry risk prior to committing their offence and experienced more types of cuckoldry risk events than non-sexual partner assaulters. These findings suggest that cuckoldry risk influences male sexual coercion in established sexual relationships.”
    .
    Thus, this study could be interpreted as suggesting an equivalency of rape and cuckoldry in men’s (subconscious) minds. (That is, consciously (which is what culture acts on, the conscious mind) men might not hold the two equal as our culture no longer does as it did in the past (female adultery, aka cuckoldry, was punishable by death and male rape was punishable by death), but deep in his ‘primordial’ emotional ‘hind-brain’, which has been programmed by evolution, the two are held equal.)
    .
    .
    Here are some other blogs that have dealt with this question.
    .
    Cuckoldry Vs. Butt Rape
    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/cuckoldry-vs-butt-rape/
    .
    Meet The Real Biggest Losers
    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/meet-the-real-biggest-losers/
    .
    Female Rapists
    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/female-rapists/
    .
    Require Baby Paternity Test
    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/require-baby-paternity-test.html
    .
    Do Men Hurt More?
    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/do-men-hurt-more.html
    .
    .
    One easy, rhetorically persuasive, comparison to make between the two is this;
    .
    Feminists have often claimed that “rape is the murder of the (her) soul.”
    Well for men, “cuckoldry is the murder of the (his) soul.”
    .
    That should hopefully get it across to you what the perspective of men on this issue is. We deplore cuckoldry, we have evolved to deplore it, and the evolutionary motivations for deploring it are exactly the same as women’s evolutionary motivations for deploring rape. And since our emotions are the result of evolution, and the selective force of aversions to cuckoldry and rape are the same, (this premise I’m not entirely certain of, it would require some heavy mathematics to prove quantitatively but from a qualitative perspective I think it suffices.), then the emotional response in men for cuckoldry and in women for rape would be the same. Now if what is considered moral is determined by the degree of moral outrage it inspires (which I think is a fair/just determination of morality absent one that is imposed top-down from a god-like being), then you have to conclude that cuckoldry and rape are equally immoral.
    .
    .
    .
    @Wanderer
    .

    seem to falsify the evo-bio hypothesis of rape in general being traumatizing simply due to its effect on “reproductive resources.

    .
    Wrong.
    .
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016230959090008T
    .
    An evolutionary analysis of psychological pain following rape:: I. The effects of victim’s age and marital status
    .
    “Abstract: The typical approach used to identify and characterize adaptations is discussed briefly, and then it is applied to psychological changes associated with the psychological pain experienced by rape victims. It has been hypothesized that mental pain may reflect psychological adaptation that is designed to detect and cope with the occurence of social problems that reduce an individual’s inclusive fitness in human evolutionary history. According to the hypothesis, mental pain is brought about by social tragedies in the lives of individuals and focuses the attention of individuals on the events surrounding the pain, promoting correction of the pain-causing events and their avoidance in the future. The hypothesis applied to rape victims proposes that in human evolutionary history raped females had increased fitness as a result of mental pain, because the pain forced them to focus attention on the fitness-reducing circumstances surrounding rape, which are discussed. Some of the hypothesis’ predictions about the psychological pain of rape victims are examined using a data set of 790 rape victims in Philadelphia (USA) who were interviewed about their psychological traumatization within five days after the assault. The analyses indicate that, as predicted, a victim’s age and marital status are proximate causes of the magnitude of psychological pain following rape. Reproductive-aged women appear to be more severely traumatized by rape than older women or girls and married women more than unmarried women. The results presented suggest that the psychology that regulates mental pain processes information about age and mateship status in the event of a women’s rape.”
    .
    This study suggests that women who have no reproductive resources experience less mental pain as a result of rape and already mated women whose exclusive possession of their reproductive resources by their mates comes under threat and hence the woman’s investment from her mate comes under threat also experience greater mental pain as a result of rape.
    .
    .
    .
    @Susan
    In case you haven’t seen it.
    .
    Hooking Up: Gender Differences, Evolution, and Pluralistic Ignorance
    http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08390404.pdf
    .
    1362 words.

  • Platero

    The comments advocating rape/suggesting that women want to be raped are disgusting and disturbing. As someone who has been both sexually harassed (by a woman) and sexually assaulted (by a man), I find any comments suggesting that women want to be raped to be appalling, and I’m very disappointed in the administrator for not removing or at least properly addressing those posts; those views should not be condoned or supported at all, in my opinion. I for one do not want to be raped, molested, assaulted, verbally harassed, or violated in any other way, shape, or form by any person, whether that person is handsome/beautiful or not. The thought literally makes me feel queasy and ill. I feel unsafe when I go out in public because people always harass me and bother me; all that I want is to go about my day without having to worry about my personal safety and well-being (and NO, I don’t dress like a slut or act like one, and I don’t encourage this inappropriate behavior). So no, women do NOT want to be violated, and the concept is appalling.

    The men who make those allegations disgust me and it’s pretty clear that they do not respect women; no one who feels that women want or deserve rape can honestly say that he is a decent person.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Platero
      I understand your strong feelings about rape. I don’t believe that any woman wants to be raped, unless it’s a consensual role-play scenario. However, the research is quite clear on this subject. Women do fantasize about rape. I know that I have fantasized about being “ravaged” by some hot, sexy male. In these fantasies, women are aroused, and receiving pleasure. They are not being beaten and forced by a stranger. There is usually some initial resistance, awareness of intense arousal, and then willing participation.

      A famous example of this is Rhett Butler’s implied rape of Scarlett O’Hara. The next morning she is all simpering giggles. This is part of our nature. YMMV, but the fact is many women fantasize this sexual experience of being completely dominated – by a favored male.

  • tyrone

    The comparison of rape with cuckoldry really doesn’t hold. Firstly cuckoldry is simply infidelity in marriage. It doesn’t entail pregnancy. Secondly the nature of the harm done is very different. Both may be very bad but that doesn’t mean that they’re equivalent.

    It’s interesting that cuckoldry has taken on such an expansive definition among some MRA’s – that the act of infidelity is posited on a continuum extending to forced patronage. This is a bit like the way that the usage of the term ‘rape’ has been tendentiously expanded by Feminists. Both are acts that advocates wish to metaphorealize, to use as devices in their social campaigns. So in that way, they are similar.

  • Vjatcheslav

    @Tom
    “The average man was allowed to work.. women were not
    the average man was allowed to own property, women were not”

    The history of law tells another story, one quite a lot more nuanced than what you paint here. In medieval Europe there was something called the douaire (in English dower, I think), that was meant to support the widow (=female) after her husbands dead. Generally there wasn’t an equivalent institution for men (the city of Ghent seems to have been an exception). Also women were quite often legally capable of owning property (“sword fiefs” being a notable exception, for the quite good reason that you need strong fighters), and could even be able of ruling themselves over their property (especially when they had become widowers). In marriage their legal position was often more restrained (in England the marriage was considered to create a new legal person, in which the personality of husband and wife ceased to exist as a separate entity; on the Continent there was often a regime of lessened capacity to act juridically). But the law doesn’t necessarily predict the facts: many women could be the boss even if their husband was the one legally responsible, and many women were probably quite content to leave money matters to their husbands.

  • chris

    @tyrone

    See my previous post(s).

    The definitions I am working with my argument above are:

    Cuckoldry: The procurement of males reproductive resources against their wishes and to their detriment (from a gene’s eye view).

    Rape: The procurement of females reproductive resources against their wishes and to their detriment (from a gene’s eye view).

    Harm: Two Possible definitions; Harm done to genes, perceived harm.

    Harm done to genes: The adaptive challanges faced by both behaviours are equivalent. See my post above.

    Perceived harm: This equivalence of adaptive challanges would result in the evolution of equivalent emotional aversions to the beaviours.

    in relation to the scientific veracity of these definitions see;
    Trivers, R. L. (1972) Parental investment and sexual selection. In B. Campbell (Ed.) Sexual selection and the descent of man, 1871-1971 (pp 136–179). Chicago, Aldine.

    Buss, D. M., R. J. Larsen, D. Westen and J. Semmelroth (1992). Sex differences in jealousy: Evolution, physiology, and psychology. Psychological Science 3:251–255.

    or indeed anything in the evolutionary biology field related to paternal investment theory or anything in the evolutionary psychological field related to jealousy. Significant sex differences are observed as would be expected from evolutionary theory.

    The comparison of rape with cuckoldry really doesn’t hold. Firstly cuckoldry is simply infidelity in marriage. It doesn’t entail pregnancy. Secondly the nature of the harm done is very different. Both may be very bad but that doesn’t mean that they’re equivalent.

    If you wish to argue against my argument actually argue against it instead of erecting ‘straw men’. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    That is, break it down, premise by premise.

  • Höllenhund

    comments advocating rape

    who feels that women want or deserve rape

    You surely aren’t talking about me. This is an obvious example of a straw man argument and I reject these baseless accusations.

    Firstly cuckoldry is simply infidelity in marriage. It doesn’t entail pregnancy.

    I want to clarify that I was talking about the practice of tricking a husband into raising a child or children that the wife knows aren’t his.

  • Abbot

    The criminal justice system in this country is chock-full of rogue prosecutors like Mary Kellet and Jody Vaughan who clearly have a personal agenda that includes encouraging the forlorn
    .
    http://current.com/news/93114731_bar-harbor-maine-the-movement-to-disbar-ada-mary-n-kellett.htm

  • jess

    “Rape is a threat to women only in the sense that it may result in her bearing the child of a man she never wanted to mate with. If you want to know how rape is perceived, you have to ask women, not men. And listening to women about this issue reveals that they don’t believe rape – in the legal sense of the world – is always bad in and of itself.”
    .
    “hell are you doing marrying a woman? Especially an unscrupulous cunt like that”
    .
    “It’s well-established that women fantasize about getting “ravished” and “swept off their feet” by attractive alphas that they know. Legally speaking it’s rape but women yearn for it nevertheless. However, if three computer programmer beta nerds overpower her in a dark alley and one of them rapes her, it’s horrific trauma, a terrible crime, she’s scarred for life etc.”
    .
    The last of the 3 quotes is perhaps one of the nastiest I have seen on this blog in a while.
    .
    I would have preferred not have had to repeat them here Susan if I’m honest.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess
      All the comments you object to are by Hollenhund. He has directly addressed your first quoted comment. I’ll take him at his word.

      I have deleted the second one. For the record, I deleted it not because of his low opinion of the woman in question, but because I censor the word cunt, and because I also won’t tolerate MRAs coming on here and advising people never to marry. It’s counterproductive to my mission.

      Re the last quote, it’s insensitive because it generalizes about all women. The first part of that statement:
      It’s well-established that women fantasize about getting “ravished” and “swept off their feet” by attractive alphas that they know.
      is true, as I’ve explained.

      The second part:
      Legally speaking it’s rape but women yearn for it nevertheless
      doesn’t make sense. A fantasy is not something that a woman necessarily wants to enact IRL. Nor are private fantasies illegal, no matter what they’re about. Women may become aroused fantasizing about something that would be deeply traumatic if it actually happened. Note that in the fantasy the woman is in control, and allows herself to be ravaged in a way she finds sexy. No woman fantasizes about being brutally raped by a stranger.

      The third part:
      However, if three computer programmer beta nerds overpower her in a dark alley and one of them rapes her, it’s horrific trauma, a terrible crime, she’s scarred for life etc.”
      I think this is stupid and wrong. Hollenhund clearly does not understand female fantasies, which never include being overpowered in a dark alley by a stranger, nerdy or otherwise.

      The truth is that rape can and does scar women for life, and can do so even when the woman may have fantasized about that particular rapist. There is a big difference between fantasizing the football captain initiating rough sex while declaring his insatiable desire for you, and actually experiencing the same guy forcibly raping you without regard for consent.

      I believe that arguing Hollenhund’s point, which I had previously not read, is more effective and useful than deleting it.

  • Höllenhund

    @jess

    Rape is a threat to women only in the sense that it may result in her bearing the child of a man she never wanted to mate with.

    Scratch the word “only”, I didn’t mean to write that. Otherwise I stand by what I said. Yes, I believe that particular woman is an unscrupulous cunt. Yes, I find it curious that there is no objective, impartial, clear legal definition of rape in the West. If the woman decides it was merely “a consensual role-play scenario”, it’s not rape. If she decides to file charges though, you can bet there’s a high chance the guy will be find guilty of rape. I mean, come on. Am I the only one who finds this strange?

  • Höllenhund

    Let me offer a parallel. Let’s suppose many men fantasize about having their cars stolen. If one of them finds his car stolen in the morning, he gets off on it. But that doesn’t mean that what happened is, legally speaking, NOT car theft and thus a crime, does it?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Höllenhund,

    Rape is not about the victim, is about the criminal – the one committing the action. Rape is to force someone, regardless of gender or age, to engage is sex with your without their consent.

    That women have rape fantasies? yes, some women like it rough, but if they like it, thats consent. Rape is not defined by that anyway, it is about if YOU are raping.

    There are guys with cuckhold fantasies. That doesnt make the actual cuckhold wives any less criminals, “oh, but some guys like this… do you mean its wrong that our five children are not yours?”

    See?

    So fuck these tendencies. Some people for some reasons are prone to have bad stuff happen to them, secretly want to fail, self sabotage, lose their jobs, break their computers, make themselves sick, etc. That doesnt mean when you enter someone´s house steal their shit and break everything with a bat and inject everyone with AIDS you are less of a criminal. “Oh but, dont some people want to get screwed up?”

    I guess a rapist and a woman with rape fantasies are a good match. Let them find each other, but make them the exception, not the rule.

    False rape claims, thats another issue. The woman changing her mind after the fact and screaming “rape” because she prefers to be a victim than to be labeled a slut? happens, but its another issue.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI
  • Höllenhund

    The woman changing her mind after the fact and screaming “rape” because she prefers to be a victim than to be labeled a slut? happens, but its another issue.

    I think that’s actually a pretty important issue.

    Hot, sexy man overpowering a woman’s initial resistance and “ravaging” her + woman not pressing charges afterwards for whatever reason = “consensual role-play scenario”

    Same man doing the same thing + woman pressing charges afterwards for whatever reason = rape

    That’s a rather curious legal concept, isn’t it?

  • Jess

    Sw,
    I hate to press you on this but I am going to guess that your response on this doesn’t quite do your rep justice.
    .
    I am aware that SOME women have rape fantasies along with a bundle of other weird and wonderful fantasies. These fantasies absolutely are not usually something the woman wants in reality. please let’s be clear about that to any guys reading this.
    .
    but what of the remainder of the 3rd quote posted? Are you saying you are happy with that?

  • Wudang

    I know several women with high partner counts that have been raped. They have been as crushed as other rape vitcims by being raped. Years of anxiety and depression and a messed up sexual life for decades is not uncommon. IF a man does not understand that he is seriously lacking in empathy and he can not really have any sense of intimacy and boundaries himself or he would have easily understood the effect. I would advise any woman to RUN in the oposite direction from such a man. His lack of empathy is the exact lack of empathy that makes some men rape. The attitudes mirror precisely those of the immigrant men in my country that now stand for a ridiculously disproportionate amount of rapes. If such a man does not ever become a rapist himself such a lack of empathy certainly implies a lot else will be wrong.

  • Wudang

    The emotional costs of cuckolding can be far worse than rape if the cuckolding is discovered but it varies a lot case by case. When it is discovered the father isen`t actually the father several things can happen. The father might detach from the child scaring the child deeply for life. Or the father might keep loving the child like his own but the child might stop seeing him as his father and instead viewing only the bilogocial father as the father thus ripping the fathers heart out in the deepes possible way by having him go through the experience of his “daughter” not wanting him as her father anymore. I can hardly think of anything that would hurt em more. I would gladly be analy raped if I could choose to undergo that than experience the child I had loved as my own for years suddenly stop seeing me as its father. Seriously I would.

    The biological father is robbed fo knowing and loving and caring for his own child. There is close to NOTHING I wouldn`t do to prevent that my child was stolen from me. If say someone tried to steal my baby from the hospital to make it their own child (this has happened many times, almost always desperate women who do this), I would KILL them wihtout flinching if it was necessary to stop them although kicking their ass would probably suffice. That`s how serious I am about someone robbing me of a life with my child and thus it is a meassure of teh seriousness of cuckolding from the perspective fo the biological father who is robbed of knowing and caring for his child.

    No matter what the realtionship between the child and the mother will easily be damaged beyond repair because the child feels betrayed by the mother because she denied her the possibility of knowing her biological father and gave her another one and because of the hurt she has caused the cuckolded father and the biological father.

    From the perspective of the man who does not want children at all, as there are many examples of, cuckolding means life long slavery. People are under the illusion that children make people more happy but on average they don`t. The increased happiness of having the child is diminshed entirely by the lack of freedom and increased effort that having children leads to. For someone who does not want children at all and who has envisioned a life that requires children playing no part being forced to have them means a huge, permanent loss of happiness. When you have to change your life entirely from what you want to something you REALLY don`t want it is SLAVERY if it is forced through someone else.

    When afte say 15 years you discover the child is not yours having lived your life for it fooled by the mother it feels like your enitre life has been raped, it feels like your whole existence for 15 years have been ruined.

    So, even though cuckolding can have various degrees of consequences, if it is found out it is worse than rape in my opinion.

  • Wanderer

    This study suggests that women who have no reproductive resources experience less mental pain as a result of rape and already mated women whose exclusive possession of their reproductive resources by their mates comes under threat and hence the woman’s investment from her mate comes under threat also experience greater mental pain as a result of rape.
    .
    A legitimate study, Chris, which raises interesting and legitimate questions, but still doesn’t address the evidence I provided earlier. If the pain caused by rape is derived primarily from the “hijacking of reproductive resources, why are men who have been raped often as traumatized as women who have been raped? Again, I would be interested in anyone looking at http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counselloradvice9907.html (along with the articles at toysoldier.wordpress.com, and the numerous other online and offline resources for male victims of sexual assault), telling me why it’s wrong, and telling me that rape really doesn’t hurt men as much as it hurts women, when the actual evidence available to us seems to be that men don’t like it much better than women do, despite their “reproductive resources” not being hijacked.
    .
    Once again, I suppose I should apologize to our hostess for continuing with this discussion, though as long as she doesn’t mind, which apparently doesn’t seem to be the case, perhaps it’s okay. However, I suppose by this point, Hollenhund and others might wonder why I (personally, at least) seem to take issue with the conflation of cuckoldry and rape. Am I trying to imply that it’s a “lesser” crime? Actually, no, not really, and here’s why. Let me ask you an honest question–not trying to troll, or “imply implications” or whatever. Aren’t there plenty of crimes which are already as serious, if not more so, than rape? Fraud, for instance. Bernie Madoff didn’t rape anybody, but thanks to his fraud and embezzlement on an epic scale, plenty more people want to see him dead than they do the random omega sitting in a jail cell for raping one or two girls. By the same token, pointing out that that the male equivalent of rape is, well, rape and that cuckoldry is more comparable to fraud (as Yohami expressed more succinctly than I) does not really mean we’re “going easy on women” or “white-knighting” or whatever. In many cases, fraud is as bad or worse than rape, and cuckoldry would seem to be one of those cases.

  • Wudang

    I ahve talked a lot with women about rape fantasies and I have spent some time on boards were rape fantasies are discussed. When women fantasize about rape it does not, at all, mean they want to be raped in real life, even by a favoured male, unless it is part of an explicitly agreed upon role play fantasy. Even at rape fantasy boards there are very, very, very few who say anything else. Even the people who get anonymous people from the net to come and “rape” them at an agreed upon time say that those experiences did not hurt them while when they expereinced rape in real life outside of this agreed upon context, either before or after, it damaged them just as much as anybody else. A good friend of mine has enacted lots of “rapes” with her boyfriends throughout the years and she was mentally wrecked to pieces for a long time after she was raped by a man she had taken home and had made out with and would probably have slept with after one or more dates but did not want to have sex with that soon. In other words being a “favoured male” did not matter one bit in reality.

  • Wudang

    Some while back I read about a couple of studies about the level of violence towards women in different countries arround the world. The crystal clear pattern was much less violence towards women in western feminist countrie than anywhere else. The level of violence towards women in some third world countries is extremely high. This matches my experience with imigrants from these countries to my own country. The men generally view hitting their woman as a legitmate means of disciplining her.

  • Esau

    A good friend of mine has enacted lots of “rapes” with her boyfriends throughout the years

    Something of an aside, but: speaking personally I don’t think I could carry out that kind of play acting, even with an explicitly scripted invitation, without it being too traumatic for me.

  • Anon-E-mous

    Susan,
    .
    I believe your computer-generated “bots” named “Jess” and “Tom” are showing signs flying out of control. While I realize their one-dimensional “reasoning” antics have been entertaining, I fear there may some corruption in the code that’s crept in over time.
    .
    Might be time to crack open “Barney” and “Willamina” for a change of pace until the stalwarts can be given a check under the hood.
    .
    /sarc off
    .
    /lurk on

  • Höllenhund

    I censor the word cunt

    I see. Well, in that case I’ll simply call the woman in question an “unscrupulous woman”.

    I also won’t tolerate MRAs coming on here and advising people never to marry.

    Please don’t misrepresent what I said. I said that a 36-year-old clueless virgin beta (the cuckolded husband in question) should weigh his options very carefully before marrying because he’ll face an especially high risk of cuckoldry, divorce and other similar peachy stuff. In other words, marriage is probably a bad idea in his case.

    It’s counterproductive to my mission.

    Yeah, I’m sure your female readers consider 36-year-old beta virgins great LTR material who must never be discouraged from marriage. LOL

    A fantasy is not something that a woman necessarily wants to enact IRL.

    Another statement of yours:

    I know that I have fantasized about being “ravaged” by some hot, sexy male. In these fantasies, women are aroused, and receiving pleasure. They are not being beaten and forced by a stranger. There is usually some initial resistance, awareness of intense arousal, and then willing participation.

    You mean women don’t actually want this stuff to actually happen to them?

    Hollenhund clearly does not understand female fantasies, which never include being overpowered in a dark alley by a stranger, nerdy or otherwise.

    Well, duh. Of course they don’t, I know that.

    This whole cuckoldry vs. rape debate was started when Wanderer correctly observed that men aren’t necessarily repulsed by the idea of raising someone else’s offspring in all cases – after all, adoption exists. I pointed out that there’s a parallel to that with regard to rape: not all acts that are legally considered to be rape – i.e. acts that could potentially land a man in prison for rape if the woman decided to press charges – are repulsive to women. After all, such acts can be consensual (example: role play, getting ravished by an alpha lover etc.).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      You mean women don’t actually want this stuff to actually happen to them?

      Precisely. It’s about control. When women fantasize about rape, we are calling the shots, in that we don’t let it get scary, or violent. It’s more of a desperate sexual union that springs from a man being driven absolutely crazy by desire for us, and us alone. It’s a monogamy fantasy. We know perfectly well that IRL it’s not going to be like this.

  • Höllenhund

    after all, adoption exists

    I forgot to mention that the cuckold fetish also exists among a tiny minority of men.

  • namae nanka

    “But is it rape? – well I cant see how it could be. If they had worn strap on dildos and raped him anally then I suppose so but they didnt.”

    “You are hopeless.”

  • Mister Y

    Say Whaat
    Why are girls waiting for their turn to speak? Because we have been taught to do so. We have been taught to passively wait our turn to speak before others because this is proper. This is the feminine communication style. This is feminine behavior.

    Where are you posting from? In North America, I regularly see girls from the age of 13 on up to 18 that routinely interrupt each other and everyone else within earshot. They don’t passively wait for their turn to speak, they blurt words out no matter who else is talking. I see the same behavior in college aged women. Your idea of feminine behavior seems to be from a couple of centuries ago, rather than from today.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You mean women don’t actually want this stuff to actually happen to them?

    Well sexologists usually say that having all types of fantasies is normal and healthy, but trying to make them come true is what creates issues. A woman might like the idea of many strange things: gang bang, rape, incest, pain… but she might know that she will really won’t enjoy it in real life or that even if she did, she will feel like crap afterward, so is not worth it.
    I think this might be another difference in the genders I remember some of my cad friends having fantasies: a threesome with two women, anal sex, get breastfeed… and later on life hiring prostitutes to do this.
    So maybe men only fantasize about things they really want to do? Guys?

  • daffyyd

    men are probably more likely to actually act out a fantasy coz their fantasies are usually less dangerous; ie. three orally fixated nymphets, etc….the most common female fantasies; masked man, BBC, exhibitionistic gang-bang, are all very risky, strictly in the fantasy realm

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      .the most common female fantasies; masked man, BBC, exhibitionistic gang-bang, are all very risky, strictly in the fantasy realm

      Whaaaattt? No, I don’t think so. Where do you get your information? The most common female fantasy is probably being surprised by a passionate kiss from someone we find hot.

  • Höllenhund

    When women fantasize about rape, we are calling the shots, in that we don’t let it get scary, or violent.

    LOL. Well, alright. I thought women’s sexual fantasies are at least as practical and realistic as men’s.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I thought women’s sexual fantasies are at least as practical and realistic as men’s.

      Ha, no. It’s the rom com version.

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  • Jess

    To Susan and hollenhund,
    .
    Hollenhund, your removal of the word ‘only’ in the 1st quote does change the flavour and meaning of the text- so I accept and respect your amendment there.
    .
    Susan, your deletion and final rebuttal are wise and on reflection I concur and I am grateful for your actions there.
    .
    I hope male readers can take your well phrased final comments on rape to heart.

  • jess

    daffyd,
    gotta say I’ve not heard many of my friends talk about gang bangs or masked men as fantasies- that sounds pretty out there. And I’ve never even heard of BBC- thats a TV channel over here.
    I think you may have met women with less common preferences.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Mister Y:

    Where are you posting from? In North America, I regularly see girls from the age of 13 on up to 18 that routinely interrupt each other and everyone else within earshot.

    I’m from the US, but the context matters here. In social settings when girls talk to each other and their friends, they can be chatterboxes. I was referring to an academic setting, where students contribute their opinions to discussions. In my experience, especially in college classes where there were maybe 3 boys out of 15 students total in the class, it was usually all the boys and myself that would actively participate. Everyone else (meaning, the girls) would just sit there silently.

  • Tim

    Precisely. It’s about control. When women fantasize about rape, we are calling the shots, in that we don’t let it get scary, or violent. It’s more of a desperate sexual union that springs from a man being driven absolutely crazy by desire for us, and us alone. It’s a monogamy fantasy. We know perfectly well that IRL it’s not going to be like this.

    I wonder if it’s possible to make a correlative argument making a link to America’s downfall and the dominance of female emotional porn. Coincidence?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tim

      I wonder if it’s possible to make a correlative argument making a link to America’s downfall and the dominance of female emotional porn. Coincidence?

      It depends on what you mean by America’s downfall. Female emo porn has definitely done a number on the SMP – but only in concert with other factors. Females have always loved fairy tales – and girls have always dreamed of being princesses. During the last 50 years, however, female desires have been explored, catered to, and largely fulfilled without limit. That has driven up female narcissism, promiscuity, and hypergamy. Male desires have been condemned, and often criminalized during this same period.

  • Tim

    The truth is that rape can and does scar women for life, and can do so even when the woman may have fantasized about that particular rapist. There is a big difference between fantasizing the football captain initiating rough sex while declaring his insatiable desire for you, and actually experiencing the same guy forcibly raping you without regard for consent.

    But you know what you’re doing, don’t you Susan? You have a duty to admit the sin, to admit you’ve fallen – and mean it. In other words, this rape fantasy does not mean you are strong and empowered. Rather, it means the opposite, that you are weak.

    Context is everything.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tim

      But you know what you’re doing, don’t you Susan? You have a duty to admit the sin, to admit you’ve fallen – and mean it. In other words, this rape fantasy does not mean you are strong and empowered. Rather, it means the opposite, that you are weak.

      Context is everything.

      I’m not sure what you are trying to say here – can you expand?

  • Mister Y

    SayWhaat
    I’m from the US, but the context matters here. In social settings when girls talk to each other and their friends, they can be chatterboxes. I was referring to an academic setting, where students contribute their opinions to discussions.

    That was not at all clear in your original posting. Perhaps if you could include contextual hints in your generalizations, communication will be easier.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Mister Y:

    I was talking about speaking up in an academic setting, jumping off from this comment:

    despite equal numbers, rambunctious boys in class shout down girls waiting and raising their hands.

    And also as evidenced by the rest of my comment.

    Perhaps if you could bother to read through the thread, you might find comprehension much easier.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com L. Byron

    Females have always loved fairy tales – and girls have always dreamed of being princesses. During the last 50 years, however, female desires have been explored, catered to, and largely fulfilled without limit. That has driven up female narcissism, promiscuity, and hypergamy. Male desires have been condemned, and often criminalized during this same period.

    Very nicely put.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I wonder if it’s possible to make a correlative argument making a link to America’s downfall and the dominance of female emotional porn. Coincidence?

    I think Susan hit the nail in the head.Its not that emotional porn is bad, but is the only one that was not shamed by society post-sexual revolution. Like mentioned before Latin America has a proud tradition of Telenovelas and things haven escalated till the point we seen in USA. Of course in 90% of telenovelas the sweet virgin ends up wining love, respect and money in the end after many personal sacrifices, while many modern romances are about an empowered slut or a cheating wife, I would guess that is also a key into the differences among the cultures,YMMV.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Its not that emotional porn is bad, but is the only one that was not shamed by society post-sexual revolution

    There’s a saying, isn’t there, something like ‘erotica is whatever it is you like, pornography is what everyone else likes.’ :)

    Pornography: sexual activity represented in books, magazines, internet, CDs, films, either written,pictorial or any other form, which has no artistic or acedemic value”
    - http://www.legal-explanations.com

    Men are more visual in their sexuality, & also more cut-to-the-chase, so what we call ‘pornography’ is the obvious, logical result. Women are markedly more concerned with internal experience, the story they tell themselves to accompany the act. Both of these manifestations of sexuality are natural, & make complete sense to the sensibilities of each sex. But one of them is considered deeply shameful in our society & hidden from polite company, whereas the other gets read on every sunny beach of the world. Huge shelves of Mills & Boon novels are stocked in every british library & grandmothers can happily leave them sticking out of their handbags without comment. And i’ve yet to read anything with less artistic or academic value than that. Emotional porn is a very good term for it.

    We laugh at Victorian prudery today, but our own hang-ups are as invisible to us now as theirs were to them then. Under Christianity, all sex was demonized. Under Feminism, only male sexuality is stigmatized.

    Well, i guess that’s some kind of progress, anyway. Right?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    But one of them is considered deeply shameful in our society & hidden from polite company, whereas the other gets read on every sunny beach of the world

    I agree with anything but this..metaphor? Even if you are ready emotional porn unless someone wants to know exactly what you are reading it remains private, but porn is a picture so even if you don’t to see a threesome you are forced to watch it if the magazine is open. So romance is easier to have around because no one has to know exactly what is happening, while is the contrary with porn, is about practicality and having your sexual likings private. I agree with the rest though.

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    @Stephenie

    Of course in 90% of telenovelas the sweet virgin ends up wining love, respect and money in the end after many personal sacrifices, while many modern romances are about an empowered slut or a cheating wife, I would guess that is also a key into the differences among the cultures,YMMV.

    More generally, the entertainment industry/media in the U.S. promotes the psychopathic personality (can’t feel there’s anything they’re not free to do), to the detriment of healthy heterosexuality.

  • Tom

    Michel

    The average man was allowed to work.. women were not
    the average man was allowed to own property, women were not
    the average man was allowed to vote, women were not
    the average man was allowed vices, women were not
    the average man was allowed to go to college, women were not
    the average man could run for office, women could not.

    No, the “average man” wasn’tallowed to vote, or even to “own property” (whatever that means). Russian serfs didn’t earn their basic freedom to leave the land until 1861, and American men without land couldn’t vote until the mid 1830s (various legalistic means of keeping the poor from voting were still on the books until the 60s). Allowed vices? What? A vice is something that garners social opprobrium by definition, to suffer from vices has always been unacceptable regardless of your sex (I’m relatively sure he’s using flowery language to mean “smoking cigarettes” here, though).

    Rights like being able to run for office or go to college miss the glaringly obvious: average men didn’t do either of these things because again, by definition, they weren’t “average” activities. College was expensive; you were either the son of a very wealthy merchant, an aristocrat or an exceptional mind that left an impression on the faculty, otherwise those doors wouldn’t open no matter how manly you were.
    _______________________

    Here in the united states, especially back in the1800s many men came from modest backgrounds to become wealthy or politically powerful.. Lincoln is a good example.
    I know Amrican history fairly well, not history in Eruope, so people using the midevil examples, save it. Im not talking THAT far back. Im talking US history.

  • Tom

    Byron you scoff at the idea that men HAD to work back then… Guess what that has not changed. Most people do need a job to survive today as well as back a 150 years ago. Sure it is no fun, for the most part. You think if men were not hired for jobs solely based on their gender, they might complain?

  • Tom

    Rape?
    Anyone who makes light of rape is a moron. A rape fantacy is just that, a fantacy. A forced submission without guilt. Would she want it in REAL life, no. There are all kinds of sexual thoughts some people like, but would not do in real life….Some women who anyone of us would consider a “good” girl may get turnd on by having a train run on them (several men in the same night).
    Here is one mans thoughts on it……(then his article_

    Because rape is a very primal threat to men, acting on a deep-seated insecurity about his relationship to the women in his life, it is likely that the taboo against acknowledging this aspect of female sexuality is rooted in men’s desire to have a more comfortable and less stressful view of the women upon which they have invested so much of their emotional well-being. It is little different from the husband who sees his wife as a “good girl,” only to find out the truth the hard way when she commits some sexual indiscretion.

    Despite the comfort that this taboo may bring to some, I would argue that it is a dangerous thing to deny the truth of human nature — even sexuality. Not only does this blind men and keep them from gaining a deeper understanding of the women around them, it also leads women to feel confused and ashamed about feelings and desires that they apparently have little control over. It is possible that the high rate of false rape accusations and obsession over the subject in America is in fact a result of confused, repressed feelings, which lead some mentally disordered women to project their fantasies onto innocent men.

    http://www.welmer.org/2009/09/02/womens-rape-fantasies-the-deepest-taboo/

  • Tom
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tom
      Those links are the strongest evidence yet that you and Jess are either one and the same, or twins separated at birth. The first article, at “healthyplace” is by “Krista.” Here’s how she introduces it:

      So do you think you can guess what some of them are? This list took a lot of time to comprise (and a few bottles of red wine as well), and the women’s names have been changed to protect their privacy.

      Most of them strike me as ridiculous, and I don’t believe they represent women’s fantasies. Krista’s perhaps, assuming Krista has some issues.

      The second link, at AskMen.com, is not as far afield, but did you notice it’s a paid ad for Durex condoms? The suggestion to make these fantasies happen with a Durex is sprinkled throughout the commentary. The writer is described as the “resident sex ed correspondent,” which is usually code for slutty feminist. There’s an interesting accompanying video, though, where they actually asked real women on the street for the ultimate sexual fantasies. Their answers?

      in an airplane with the pilot
      under a waterfall
      on a blanket in the woods
      lots of whisky
      in a hotel
      with chocolate and strawberries
      with pedestrians walking by
      in an elevator
      on a pool table
      with a police officer in uniform

      Those sound more like it.

  • bure baruta

    Cuckoldry:

  • bure baruta

    Weird.

  • jess

    susan,
    so i guess that means im either a schizophrenic or I will get a smaller inheritance- great!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @jess
      Or maybe it means you have a brother you didn’t know about!

  • http://www.jeffreybrauer.blogspot.com/ Jeffrey of Troy

    @”Tom”

    Byron you scoff at the idea that men HAD to work back then… Guess what that has not changed.

    Who the hell doesn’t know this?

    Most people do need a job to survive today as well as back a 150 years ago.

    Who the hell doesn’t know this?

    Sure it is no fun, for the most part.

    Who the hell doesn’t know this?

    You think if men were not hired for jobs solely based on their gender, they might complain?

    Well, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here, as it’s very word-salad-ish, but here goes:

    Most men are better at most jobs than most women. You feminists keep treating un-equal results as – by itselfincontrovertible evidence of “discrimination.” But there would be un-equal results even if there was no “discrimination”, because of un-equal distribution of abilities (judicial law in the U.S. requiring employers to pretend it isn’t true is one of the major factors driving middle-class jobs to third world countries).

    Although it is true that women’s IQ distribution is more clustered near the avg than men’s is, it’s not only that. Most women inherited a preference for Feeling over Thinking, so right there they are not going to be as good at science, technology, and engineering (just as a man who inherited F over T would also not be as good at STEM as a man who inherited T over F). Add the un-equal distribution of IQ to the fact that 80% of NT’s are male, and men are always going to be over-represented at the top of math, science, and related.

    Also, the vast majority of women have never clamored for more employment in mining, or construction, or manufacturing, or sewage, or anything dangerous or dirty. It’s entitlement all the way.

  • jess

    sw,
    well if thats true my mother has some serious explaining to do- i think my very traditional family would all have simultaneous seizures if something like that ever emerged.
    .
    Tom- you got any Catholic or Irish heritage?

  • jess

    Jeff of Troy,
    I believe you when you claim to believe men are superior at most jobs. I really do.
    .
    I also believe there are others like you.
    .
    This is why I am grateful for equal rights legislation. I am also grateful that most of the male colleagues I know have more enlightened views.
    .
    quick question- would you be happy if your pilot or surgeon or dentist was female?

  • Octavia

    The routes that this conversation took are quite interesting, especially given the title of the thread…

  • Abbot

    “it demonstrates a disapproval, or a disgust, for another person’s sexual life”
    .
    and that alone is the reason for the slut….walks. The constant mention of “violence” is a red herring. These women want to do what they want, with their pills and “freedom” to sexually satisfy a small group of men and not be questioned about it now or later when deciding to “change” for one man. Frustration over being “shamed” built into such a froth that it was only a matter of time before they took to the streets, in typical feminist fashion.
    .
    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2011/0613/SlutWalk-protests-A-dress-is-not-a-yes

  • Abbot

    have more enlightened views
    .
    read: have come around to my way of thinking
    .
    men are superior at most jobs
    .
    why does it matter if they are or they aren’t?
    .
    I am grateful for equal rights legislation.
    .
    Then, by extension, you must be ecstatic over the plethora of equal outcomes legislation

  • jess

    equal outcomes?
    sorry not with you…

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Hi Jess, I’ll take your earlier question:

    Dentist: absolutely
    Surgeon: probably
    Pilot: probably not

    Reasons:

    All professions where personal contact & intimate care is involved (nurse, physical therapist, primary school teacher etc) are predominately female. Dentistry, though only a few generations ago an entirely male profession, is fast becoming half female, & probably eventually mostly female. (Quite possibly psychiatry too, though i am struggling to find any figures on that – if anyone know the percentage let me know). Partly because of natural sex roles & partly because of feminist-propagated distrust of men, people (male & female) just generally feel better being touched by/naked in front of/talking about private things with women. As Warren Farrell said, ‘put it this way: would you rather have a man’s or a woman’s hands inside your mouth?’

    Dentistry is a less high-risk/high-stress occupation than surgery – if they get it wrong, they’re probably not going to kill you. the worst that will happen if they’re bad at their job is they’ll fuck up your teeth & you can sue them.

    Surgery is far more dangerous & far less to do with personal connection, empathy & care. It is also an incredibly stressful job that requires traditionally male skills of obsessionate steely focus, emotional detatchment & stability. This, along with the amount of time it takes to even become a surgeon, is the main reason the majority of surgeons are still male, even though there are more female surgeons all the time.

    However, the thing i would be looking for most in a surgeon would be experience &/or age. I would figure that a white-haired surgeon, male or female, probably won’t have a long record of killing people or else they wouldn’t still be doing what they do. They’d have been let go years ago.

    There are a number of reasons why no-one is pushing all commercial airline pilots to be half-female, such as

    1) half of the applications to become a commercial airline pilot will never be half female, women are not drawn to that activity in such high numbers any more than girls are drawn to skateboarding. And discrimination is no more a factor in the first decision than the second. There appear to be fundamental brain/ coordination differences between males & females in this regard.

    2) The incredible weight of responsibility (every day you go to work not even one but hundreds, possibly even thousands of people’s lives will either continue or end depending on your actions) is something very few women are prepared to shoulder. As Warren Farrell (again) noted, one of the main factors leading to the percieved ‘pay gap’ is the choices women make in their careers. Women work the majority of part-time jobs, & are much more likely to choose work which pays less but gives them a better quality of life (no night-shifts/ long commutes/ overtime / hazardous work etc) Also women are much more likely, statistically, to choose jobs in which they can check-out psychologically at the end of the day & not wake up every night screaming from nightmares of airplane crashes.

    3) on some level we all know that scoring political or ideological points is not worth possibly killing thousands of people if we are wrong. And none but the most suicidally hardened feminist among us would want to take the risk ourselves to step into a plane we knew was going to be landed by someone who has got their job through affirmative action. Just as the majority of us seem to feel more comfortable in the hands of a female nurse, we also feel safer in the hands of a male pilot/fireman/surgeon.

    I think Susan mentioned in a past post the cryptographer Leo Mark’s autobiography ‘Silk & Cyanide’ where he mentions as a young man back in the war he found his whole crew of female codebreakers were messing up badly four days every month. He rather naively had to ask one of the female supervisors what it could mean & had an enlightening ‘bird & bees’ explanation given to him. The only thing they could do is force the women to take (even) more sick days, which of course is hardly in keeping with the idea of ‘equality’ as feminists typically portray it, but even so only some women would participate & finally (as i recall it) they simply had to accept at least some losses during the women’s menstrual cycles, or not use them at all. Which for Marks was not at all acceptable, considering lives were at stake, but is even less acceptable in this instance, where so much more immediate stress is involved & the consequences so horrific.

    On the other hand, if i knew a woman who owned her own private plane & flew it regularly, i’d be most happy to hop a ride with her. I also tend to feel happier in cars driven by women: men may well be generally more skillful drivers but women drive slower & more carefully to compensate so it ends up being a more chilled-out journey, which i prefer.
    .

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Just noticed I’ve made it to the blogroll :) Thanks for the add Susan.

  • jess

    byron
    .
    sorry i hadnt noticed your reply. you make fair comments but have skipped some of the reasons behind gender choices/vocations.
    .
    there is nothing wrong with female racing drivers or military pilots. they just have a steely determination to thrive in a male environment.
    .
    as to gender car driving- wooaaa- big genralisation. im a crap driver and my partner quite skilled but i have male friends who are very slow whilst some of my female friends are pretty nippy in comparison.
    .
    dont forget your youngest years are your most formative and every pilot and hair dresser is drenched in hetero normative signals and expectation. from tv to playground to parents.
    .
    so your figures are largely correct- but pilots have to pass competency tests and personality profiles.
    .
    so if you dont want your pilot to be female- well… I think you have let yourself down there a bit.

  • jess

    just noticed on some other sites that there is further feminist in roads in some muslim contries.
    .
    some women are defying the female driving ban. some are getting jailed but its still happening.
    .
    exciting times for feminism ahead

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      exciting times for feminism ahead

      Thanks, Jess, this made me laugh out loud. It sounds like an Abbott comment.

  • Jess

    Oh no!
    Trust me, an imitation of that nature would never be an intended outcome!
    .
    In fact if I wasn’t on my 5th glass of this rather excellent merlot I would likely take offence!

  • Tom

    @ Jeff of Troy

    Most men are better at most jobs than most women

    LOL @ you

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Byron:

    Yes, Baumeister is spot-on. I’ve not been yet tracked down a copy of the book, but there’s a great lecture he gave about it a little while ago here:

    http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2010/10/is-there-anything-good-about-men.html

    Maybe this is close:
    Roy F. Baumeister: Is There Anything Good About Men?
    (Word document)

    / Kari Hurtta