“There is something inherently fascinating about pretty young women leading lives shaped around romance and sexuality instead of power and ambition. A generation is hungry for these stories, which have come to represent—who would have guessed it?—a kind of feminine arcadia.”
Caitlin Flanagan, Stewardesses and Bunnies of Yore, Wall St. Journal
Americans are on a nostalgia binge, and they’re particularly fascinated with portrayals of glamorous women – pre-feminism, pre-Friedan gals. It’s not just those of us who came of age in the 60s, either. Mad Men parties have been all the rage on college campuses for the last couple of years, and the Playboy bunny Halloween costume is always a best seller.
This fall, two new nostalgia series will debut on TV, and they too will undoubtedly pull a scrim over the past, romanticizing the 60s in much the same way Mad Men has done. Pan Am centers on the lives of stewardesses during the golden age of jet travel, when people still got very dressed up to fly and expected beautiful, sexy women to serve their coffee. Caitlin Flanagan, writing Stewardesses and Bunnies of Yore in the WSJ:
“We’ve reached a new cultural moment. There is something naughtily alluring now about these young women who don’t need to spend a second fretting over that scourge of the contemporary female: work/life balance.
Like millions of other women of their proximate age and social class in that era, the stewardesses of “Pan Am” move through a series of airtight compartments: the college education, the fun and adventurous career, the betrothal that ends in the transformation to homemaker.
That this sequence is no longer regarded as a bullet train to what Ms. Friedan called “the problem that has no name,” but rather as the substance of dreamy, wish-fulfillment television, tells us just how far behind we’ve left the old battles and barricades. What once looked like oppression now seems heavenly.”
There’s also The Playboy Club, a sleazy show about the same era. Flanagan:
“What both [shows] share is an absence of judgment about jobs that were once at the very center of the feminist critique of women’s roles and prospects.”
If Sex and the City was the realization of feminist goals for female sexuality, then Pan Am and The Playboy Club must be considered a backlash of sorts. My theory is that both sexes are missing the sense of feminine and masculine energies in direct contrast with each other, something that has essentially been bred out of the culture. As Stuart Schneiderman says:
Women are having difficulty finding good men because they themselves are the good men they are looking for.
Is there a way to get femininity back? For women and men to work productively side by side without sublimating their natural differences? If women return to acting feminine, and ultimately being feminine, will men respond positively?
Let’s find out. Six months ago I wrote The Essence of Femininity in an effort to define it. Based largely on feedback from male HUS readers, I published the following 6 key aspects of femininity:
1. Nurturing
Men respond to women who convey warmth and affection. Women have a natural predisposition towards taking care of others – most importantly, family.
Men crave a nurturing and tender touch from women, and women enjoy bestowing it. Several men mentioned looking for clues that a woman will be a good mother. A nurturing personality is the number one cue for that.
2. Playful
Men love to be teased. One requested coyness and another coquettishness, which is defined as “teasing sexual or romantic overtures; flirtation.” Playfulness is one of the things that has been discouraged by feminism, as it was considered a sure-fire way not to be taken seriously. I believe that a sense of playfulness, humor, and good-natured teasing is almost always appropriate, and men value this quality in a woman. Don’t take yourself too seriously.
3. Subtle
Women have been taught that “you get what you ask for,” and “you can do anything you want if you fight for it.” Consequently, we have gotten rather obvious and aggressive in the last couple of generations. This has served us well in some ways, but it doesn’t translate very well to relationships. We have made seduction artless, which is pitiably a lot less fun for everyone. It is impossible to be intriguing when one is obvious. It is impossible to be curious about someone when they are an open book, displaying their wares as if for sale. One man described subtlety as communicating “class and elegance.” Another described the appeal of mystery, advising women “Show, don’t tell.”
4. Emotionally Intelligent
Men perceive that women are good at emotions, that they can be sensitive and tactful. Men crave empathy, understanding and appreciation from women. They need the support of women, and they appreciate good listening skills. They also enjoy a woman’s emotional vulnerability as a proxy for her emotional health and ability to bond. One man said that he wants a woman to have sex like a woman, and that means emotional intimacy. Men will avoid committing to a woman who does not “have eyes only for them.”
5. Taking pride in feminine appearance
Both men and women value good grooming and careful attention to dressing. Men like skirts and dresses more than pants, tailored pants more than sweats. Emphasize what makes you female!
Not surprisingly, men and young women are tuned in to maximizing those features that also serve as cues for fertility: skin, physical health and fitness, and the ever-present preference for long hair. Several guys mentioned loving polished fingers and toes. Modesty was mentioned as having more allure than brash display of physical assets.
6. Displaying female physicality
One reader shared her grandmother’s advice that a woman needs to walk like a woman. This was echoed repeatedly by the males. They notice and appreciate female posture, body language, facial expressions, and eye contact. Men strongly prefer a feminine tone of voice, and love the sound of a woman’s laugh.
Summer is a good time to experiment with changing things up a bit. Try to be aware of how you interact with men. Don’t slip into androgyny, even in the workplace. It’s entirely possible to be feminine and professional. My best mentors were all male, and they never would have called me “one of the guys.”
Try adopting more feminine mannerisms, and observe how men respond. Show a bit of vulnerability – you’ll trigger the protective instinct in males, rather than the competitive one.
Americans are in search of the feminine. Give yourself permission to be a woman. You know you want to.
{ 282 comments… read them below or add one }
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That Stuart Schneiderman quote is PURE GOLD.
Women should recognise that every step up they take on the career ladder will reduce the number of men who are ABOVE THEM on the career ladder.
Think about it. That’s not a problem for a woman who is happy to “date down”, but realistically, how many women are willing to date or marry men of lower status?
Most women are comfortable with the idea of other women doing it, but just wouldn’t do it themselves.
Do I want to? I’ve read through this article and I see no explanation really as to why I, as a young woman, should follow this advice. I suppose if I was single and put a lot of stock in the opinions of the people who comment on your blog, I might “gussy myself up” a bit to try to lure in a man. Really though, if someone doesn’t already act that way, it’s probably not in their nature. Are you saying that women should lie or put on a facade in order to attract a man? In that scenario, everyone loses. The man either finds her slowly reverting to her old habits and laments that she isn’t the woman he fell in love with, or is partnered with someone who is living a lie, and unwilling to share her whole self with him. The woman is either hiding her true nature or risks losing this guy if she changes.
@Kate
I disagree. I think that if you are a woman, then it is in your nature to be feminine. However, if you were raised after 1960 you have been taught, in every avenue of life, that acting female is detrimental to women’s interests. Women of my generation grew up being consistently rewarded for acting like a man, and chastised for being too female in our interests. During the last 50 years, women have been masculinized and men have become feminized. The key is to act more like who you really are, by breaking free of the cultural indoctrination that has us all in its grip.
I think it’s pretty clear that both sexes find the other lacking, and have resorted to sex that resembles animals rutting – it’s the shortest, straightest line to pleasure, romance be damned. Movies and TV shows promoting an earlier era, when men wore the pants in the family and women felt comfortable nurturing, reflect this awareness in society, and the desire to escape it.
The woman is either hiding her true nature or risks losing this guy if she changes.
Well feminism had been telling women to stop doing that for decades now. How do you know is not the other way around and women had been hiding their true feminine nature to “be taken seriously at work”?
Slip into something slinky and make me a martini…
It is turning, isn’t it?
Okay ladies of HUS: Post your tastefully cheese-cakey pics in honor of traditional gender roles. We’re all counting on you.
To commenter #1:
Life in society has always involves conformity to one degree or another. IT is only the most callow adolescent thinking that says “I refuse to conform to other peoples’ expectations”.
Polite, peaceful society is all about conforming to social norms and relationships are no different.
If some girl wants to be an unfeminine pain in the neck, or wear dumpy birkenstocks that go with her hairy legs, by all means go ahead. But then expect men to be exactly as they feel like being, and do not complain.
I think so. It will probably come back naturally if we simply stop telling women to do otherwise. The claim that women need to become masculine, or androgynous, to participate as peers in society is ideological, not empirical or practical. There are plenty of cultures where women are successful in business and public life while retaining their femininity.
Dear Kate,
Most men want women to be feminine. I’ve known A LOT of men, and the ones who don’t like feminine women I can count on the fingers of two fingers.
I’ve dated (as in been in relationships with) several women. Some of them were very feminine, and some were as you describe – not liking to get “gussied up” . In every case, I liked the non-gussy types in spite of that. They were cool enough to overcome their lack of femininity.
Throw a little femininity in the mix. Use the real kind – not the helpless, eyelash batting stuff, or the bitchy, entitled crap. I’ll bet it sets your man’s tail a-wagging and has him volunteering to fight dragons for you. It can be as subtle as a comment, or your head placed on his shoulder, or a sexy walk across the room followed by a glance. Like I said – it’s not a tearing down/rebuilding of everything you are as a human. It’s like a dash of spice in a bubbling pot.
Rather than thinking of it as changing who you are, think of it like giving your guy a gift.
Just a sincerely non-judgmental, admittedly non-solicited bit of advice from a stranger who really, really likes women.
Sincerely,
Dogsquat
Eh. They are trying to be manly, without the good part
In the other hand, betas are trying to become the cute girls they dream about
Hell yes.
Isn’t it? I’ve actually posted it before. It’s just so perfectly worded.
Yes! Keep peeling the layers off that onion that is your self until you reach the real you!
Instead of women stepping down, why not have more men step up?
@SayWhaat
Interesting you should say this. I just received the following email from a male who wishes to remain anonymous:
@johnny milfquest
it is.
women are so hard and tough now — they are the men they want to find — that men are not inspired to be masculine, protective, and gallant.
great post, susan.
and of course, here is the female counterargument: they can’t trust men to take care of them, so they *have* to be tough and self sufficient.
but no man wants to commit to a ballbuster.
catch 22.
@yohami
“They are trying to be manly, without the good part”
good point. they are still erratic and capricious and emotional, but now hard as nails.
You already ARE lying to men by being a feminist and denying us the femininity we desire. Deep down, down below the magazine and academic propaganda, you don’t want to be a man and men don’t want you to be one either. Being anything other than a woman is cheating yourself and all men out of happiness. Got it?
It’s the nature of most organizational hierarchies that the higher you go, the fewer the number of people above you. So more men stepping up necessarily means fewer women in those positions.
Also if you look at employment stats for white collar professions, it’s not evident that there is a preponderance of women, or even a commensurate number of women. Men are still ‘overrepresented’, statistically speaking. Women do hold the majority of positions in certain fields (e.g. areas of healthcare, education, public admin), but not across the broader economy.
The status problem for women doesn’t seem to arise from their specific professional role, and a lack of males in superior roles, but from the broader social status that these roles confer. Basically women at a given strata prefer men at a higher strata, and once they achieve even a modicum of success, they’re necessarily targetting a relatively elite group of men. This has nothing to do with the mix of sexes, rather the proportional distribution of status across the population. For example, all high status professionals could be male and this would still result in a ‘shortage’ of males for women in the next lower social strata.
This smacks of bias more so than an indication of social conditions. She can’t find any men who’ll listen to her? That’s not a good sign, and something that she should learn to rectify or she’s going to get stuck in her career. Female managers and executives have developed a reputation for forming cliques in organizations (aka girls clubs). And it’s regarded as a warning sign when they do so.
I agree that summer is a great time to embrace the beauty and power of true femininity. The season where skin comes out to play is an interesting test of how a woman sees herself – and how she wants to be seen. I find it extremely attractive when I see a women who is different, who does not participate in the race to the shortest skirt, who is not afraid to stand on her own outside of the herd mentality; a women who has power from within.
This doesn’t mean she can’t show some skin – but there are many ways to achieve that – and the saying “leave something to the imagination”, while cliche, still plays a stronger hand with me than the less-is-more approach. I think if a women were to embrace even half of your list, she would be surprised by how positively they were received.
I think this topic should be revisited just prior to halloween – as it seems that every year the bar is lowered in terms of women’s costumes. I’m no prude, but I think it is indicative of broken link between feminine beauty and the modern notion of female attractiveness. Cheap sexuality has seemingly won out. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I have no interest in women who may very well fight to be valued based on their intellect by day but then peel down to appeal to the most primal receptors of men by night. I think being a Lady means you strive to have gender-neutral qualities without compromising your uniquely female attributes.
I have been longing for the return of the Lady for quite some time. And my desire is not driven by some romanticized throwback to when gender roles were rigid – though I do find it interesting that there seems to be a trend in romanticizing the days where certain things, for right or wrong, were easier to define.
I think our society is stunted by some kind of optionality-disorder. While the pendulum swings, we grow increasingly conflicted by the sheer breadth of opportunities. Unfortunately most of the new opportunities were born out of the destruction (or devaluing) of the old. I think being a Lady died by way of the feminist goal of gender equity. By means of demonizing the feminine traits, behaviors, and demeanors that were (wrongfully) associated with subordination to men, femininity and gender equity were cast into a mutually exclusive pairing. This quickly devolved into empowerment via emulation. Similar to how base behaviors in male sexuality have been embraced by women as a form of empowerment, many other masculine traits have become appropriated by the modern women in her quest to achieve equality. I think this has created a very confusing social environment for both men and women. I don’t think it matters whether those traits are generally viewed as positive or negative, the larger issue is about the process of ignoring the natural differences in favor of equity-at-all-cost.
Regarding optionality, women can assume a wide variety roles now, which is a good thing, but when the ability to assume these roles comes at the cost of abandoning or ignoring gender differences, this creates a system in which real power, real equity is constantly fleeting because these roles are not anchored in anything real. The system is completely reliant on a constant buy-in by the participants. And I think that we are seeing at best a passive buy-in from men – leaving women in a state of constant conflict. Instead of the optimism and lightness that comes from expanding opportunity – more choices, I think we see an anxiety stemming from either a constant analysis of the opportunity costs of various options or disappointment in the realization that while people may pretend that finding a mate and nesting is not a primary directive of being human – many of these additional opportunities are in fact detrimental to this pursuit (perhaps goes to Johnny’s comment on career advancement- or even the long-discussed limiting effect of promiscuity) and not – as they have been repeatedly told, automatically supportive.
In my meager opinion, if femininity is embraced within these expanding roles and opportunities, women would feel much more anchored, and thus powerful, content and happier. I’m not saying women are not happy or unable to find contentment – but within the context of interacting with men, and certainly within the pursuit of a relationship, there are some fundamental forces being overridden.
Outliers aside, I think that these natural forces are at work. Not just because we can see how these predispositions play out in a multitude of situations throughout life, but because I firmly believe that as a man, my desire (and high level of attraction) for feminine qualities is indicative of powers at work beyond a conscious buy-in to any particular social construct.
In fact I believe that collectively, our innate knowledge of the opposite gender is so deeply rooted that much of the background anxiety in ‘modern’ society is due to ignoring, subordinating, and/or manipulating those unique and complimentary attributes of men and women. And this feels like a pretty big price to pay, particularly since it seems as if it is playing out in the form of some reversion to a gender-neutral mean.
Just as ‘real men’ are rapidly becoming an endangered species, the feminine woman has fallen into the obscure in favor of girls who routinely embrace unabashed aggression, vulgarity, and cheap sexuality in place of the grace, tact, and subtle beauty that women (and men) used to openly hold in high regard. And I think those attributes are the very ones that best play into the receptors of the male mind – both above and below the belt, if you will.
As women lap up the detritus of the likes of Chelsea Handler and fawn over the romanticized self-indulgence of the Sex/City type media, they are attaching to traits that are furthest from the qualities most conducive for the attraction and formation of a relationship with a real man. I think there are many parallels between the decline of femininity that play out in very similar ways as sexual choices/behaviors in terms of ignoring/overriding male preferences under the false pretense of equality or power. Again, its fine to behave any way you like, but women are cheating themselves if they think those traits are viewed more positively than embracing femininity. If I’m wrong, I’d be curious to hear if any women feel as if exhibiting more masculine behaviors/traits – even going into the vulgar culture, has attracted the kind of men they find attractive themselves. Or if they found that those behaviors tend to place them in the “F” only or date-but-not-marry category of that male laddering system previously discussed. I tend to think that a lot of guys find those traits amusing, fun, and/or sexually attractive in the short-term. But eventually they all have to meet mom – and what is fun or attractive in the short-term can turn tedious, even ugly, in a hurry.
1. When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.
2. Playfulness huh? Sounds an awful lot like ditzyness to me. No thanks, not interested.
3. I’m not going to beat around the bush for the mere sake of being subtle.
4. Just because men perceive does not mean it is the truth. My partner (male) is far more emotional than I will ever be and I’m not planning on faking to become the ‘sensitive type’ even if he did so desire it.
5. I like pants. Get over it.
6. Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.
@Kate
I totally understand where your coming from. What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?
“she is increasingly frustrated by the bad behavior and generally bad attitude of the young men… Ivy League grads, no less… who are trying to find themselves, take no initiatives, and whine a lot”…..why would she expect Ivy League grads to have a better attitude than state college grads?
Assuming that she has hiring authority for the people who are going to work for her…and in most professional environments within corporations, managers do have ultimate authority over hiring for their groups, all the widespread bitching about HR aside…if the men on her team have a bad attitude, she needs to reevaluate her hiring criteria. And get rid of a couple of the people with especially bad attitudes as a signal to the others.
Lose weight. Stop being fat. 40 BMI is not healthy. Having a waist that is larger than mine is NOT attractive (I’m between 33 and 34 waist – the American female average is 34.5). Did I mention stop being so ridiculously fat to the point where I worry that you’ll “let yourself go” when you’re pregnant and give our (well, I hope it’s ours, not like I can legally enforce it) child pre-natal diabetes?
As awesome as this blog is, it has not addressed the problem of female obesity. And that, BY FAR, is the thing that turns off men the most.
As awesome as this blog is, it has not addressed the problem of female obesity. And that, BY FAR, is the thing that turns off men the most.
This is an interesting point. I’m not sure if Susan would like to add fat shaming to her slut shaming campaign…wouldn’t that distract the audience? Too many objectives? Also my guess is that most women that read this are young enough so they are probably not as fat. I live close to universities and most young women here range from chubby to skinny. So far the few landwhales I had spotted are part of the working masses.
Oh my fucking God, hand me a puke bucket. I’ve never heard anything more narcissistic in my entire life.
Duh, Anonymous, the quote was meant as a criticism of the homogenization of the sexes in our society, not an assertion that women should be more self-reliant.
@beta plus
Is obesity a female problem? Are more American women than men obese? If not, then I think it’s reasonable to assume that obese folks will find each other. Men who are fit and want a fit partner can certainly find one.
If the problem of obesity is shared equally by the sexes, then I see no reason to single out women for fat shaming.
Great post, Susan.
While I laud your approach and your challenge, I do not hold out much hope for its wide and sweeping success, due to the advanced atrophic-sclerosis of the femininity muscle of most XX-chromosomed individuals in the greater CONUS/NATO orbit. This hardened atrophy of femininity is most accurately evinced by the first commenter, Kate, who appears to be so disconnected from her feminine self that it seems to be an effort to get back there, and regards the feminine way of being as inauthentic.
If it’s so much trouble to be a woman, Kate, there are hormones and surgeries that will remedy your femininity difficulties forthwith.
Personally, for the single men in the house, I recommend cultivating social circles in the arts. I’ve met some charming young women with much femininity intact in dance and performing arts communities. Of course, they too are aware of their femininity-enhanced SMV, thus, gentlemen, bring your A-game.
Thanks, Susan, also for highlighing that Stuart Schneiderman quote. The link from which it came is full of gems, including this one:
“I bet you did not know that [Sean} Hannity had become a radical feminist.” Pure genius.
I had seen the link to Stuart’s site on your page but hadn’t ever explored it much. I’ve found a trove of excellent material.
Yes, by about 30% and it sets in earlier for women.
Whether it’s a man or a woman in those positions, as long as the best person for the position (in terms of ability and acumen) is hired for the role, I don’t have a problem.
Sorry, I’m confused. Are you saying that high status professional males in one strata would be ineligible to the women in the next lower social strata? As in, if every man was a doctor, then there would be a shortage of males for women who are secretaries? I don’t follow, can you clarify what you mean?
I sort of agree. I remember when I was much younger, I used to think that it was more important to behave like a tomboy, because it seemed like everybody in the movies/mass media gave attention to those girls. They were the independent, rough-and-tumbleweed sort of girls who men found adorable and, once they received male attention, blossomed into feminine creatures.
A few years ago, I worked part-time as staff in my school’s gym, and one of my co-workers remarked that I was probably the most feminine girl out of everyone we worked with. I took it as a semi-insult because in my mind, feminine = weak and flirty-stupid. I thought he wasn’t taking me seriously as a person.
X 100! Mothers, put your daughters in dance and make them stick with it! I’m not talking hip-hop or jazz where girls basically learn to gyrate and twirl — have them study a classical form with discipline and structure. I studied classical Indian dance since the age of 4 and my training shows even in my daily movements (one of my professors once commented on how gracefully I raised my hand to ask questions in class, lol).
“So far the few landwhales I had spotted are part of the working masses.”
Steph: just curious, but what exactly do you mean by “the working masses?”
Are you referring to blue collar people, perhaps, or just working class as in
“have to work for a living?” Are you independently wealthy yourself? I, alas, must work for a living and my spouse is blue collar.
I am not endorsing “fattitude”; it’s an huge problem in American culture and it’s an economic wallop to our healthcare system, possibly more even than sluttery. I’d like to see healthier eating and exercising marketed as a sign of patriotism; i.e., do your part to keep healthcare costs down — could be a winner!
I have no quibble with these femininity suggestions altho acting “girly” on the job is inadvisable; in a way, you almost have to neuter yourself a bit. I’ve always tried to go with calm and professional and absolutely no emotional outbursts; no screeching, no tears (have witnessed this and it’s awful). Depending on your profession, showing vulnerability may be seen as weak and ineffective; this is not going to earn you a good performance review.
Point 2 is DEAD ON. The others are very good too but #2 is a point I lament to my friends about often. I tease women all the time. While some flirt back, few ever tease me back. When a woman DOES tease me about something playfully, it’s like a spotlight suddenly turned on her.
Not to be mean, Lucy is a prime example of what most guys I know DON’T want in a woman…complete with the trucker mouth. I’m guessing she’s no older than 22.
DD
Are you referring to blue collar people, perhaps, or just working class as in
“have to work for a living?” Are you independently wealthy yourself? I, alas, must work for a living and my spouse is blue collar.
I commented that students were not fat IME so I separate them from the people at work. And I meant every level and everyone that is not a student. Susan started this blog for college and is moving to young professionals so I though worth mentioning this. Masses = group of people, working= that go to work. I’m working class myself (I’m going to start working and at entry level here after been a very well payed professional in my home country and I couldn’t be happier!
I love working I used to work from 6 am to 12 am) so I don’t discriminate my group, but I don’t idealize it either, but in this case is more a case of: every time I go around the colleges I see many fit people and every time I visit an office I see a meaningful proportion of them fat to high levels. Capisce? Really why are you expecting the worst?
It’s easier to have a routine workout regimen when you’re in college, less so when you’re working full-time. I used to work out after class, but now that I’m working full-time I realized that if I’m going to stay fit, I’m going to have to start waking up really early on the weekdays just to squeeze it in.
@Tasmin
Your comment about Halloween costume reminded me of this add.
[img]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rUiV_Hh74[/img]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rUiV_Hh74
@SayWhaat
I’ll give you a made-up example of what I understand from what Jack has said:
Say there are 200 doctors and 400 nurses. All the doctors are males while 75% of nurses are females. There should be one male for each female. But because of hypergamic nature of females, only 200 female nurses can get a male doctor. 100 leftover female nurses never consider the 100 male nurses as possible partners. From what the 300 female nurses perceive, there is a *shortage* of males for them.
I’m a guy and I secretly wish this is not true. The only way the 100 male nurses can make visible to the 300 female nurses is to have game. All the male nurses I’ve seen at work have tight game like Athol Kay.
It’s easier to have a routine workout regimen when you’re in college, less so when you’re working full-time. I used to work out after class, but now that I’m working full-time I realized that if I’m going to stay fit, I’m going to have to start waking up really early on the weekdays just to squeeze it in.
That is my guess, but still given that Susan is mostly aiming to college/post-college age women she might not feel the need to bring this point out, so that is why I mentioned the comment about maybe her target audience not needing fat shaming advice.
I’m a guy and I secretly wish this is not true. The only way the 100 male nurses can make visible to the 300 female nurses is to have game. All the male nurses I’ve seen at work have tight game like Athol Kay.
Not necessarily if we go by Hawaiian libertarian a woman that considers nursing for a guy something special and high status. Maybe because she thinks it takes balls to pick a more female orientated work might find him attractive. Of course this will probably be someone that is not a nurse herself. I think that women usually consider high status men that are good at something they are not good at.
What does this mean exactly? For most of us, whenever we hear “man up” or “start acting like a man,” it usually just means “do something that makes some woman’s life easier.”
So I ask: What do guys exactly do to “step up” that they aren’t already doing? And more importantly, what’s in it for them to do so?
BACK ON TOPIC…
Excellent post Susan. I couldn’t agree more. I run into a good number of girls every week that I can be very attracted to, wouldn’t mind getting physical with, or even semi casually date for a short period of time. But that’s it. All they inspire is a boner and indifference.
It’s literally been years since I’ve come across any girl that brought about the slightest consideration of going on my “date seriously/marry” ladder. I’ve always said that most girls weren’t classy enough for that anymore, but I think now you can replace “classy” with “feminine” (although class is certainly a sub category).
Androgyny makes me happy; femininity feels like I’m in drag for my own damn gender. That started long before I was even aware that feminism was a thing– literally, when I was three years old I would sulk if made to wear princess dresses.
So, no, not all women are “naturally” feminine. If someone doesn’t want my blunt, unable to read emotions, jeans and no makeup, walking like a man self, then they shouldn’t date me. But I’d rather have the one dude who likes me the way I am then ten guys who like someone I’m pretending to be.
And not “all” men are naturally masculine, and not all people can process carbs, so what. NAWALT gets tiring quick.
Well, yohami, if people would stop saying that “who I really am” is someone I’m really not, then I’d stop arguing with them.
(R)Evolutionary
Stuart Schneiderman is awesome. He’s super smart, always interesting, and prolific. I forget how he found me, but he’s a great ally. He’s tight with Dr. Helen, and Instapundit links to him quite a bit. I’m jealous.
@Grindl
It’s funny you should say this. When I was writing about the low Italian birthrate, I recalled that Mussolini urged Italians to have more babies “for the fatherland.” I believe Italians are still sensitive to this today – they strongly resent any notion that they should have more children for the sake of the country.
I agree for the most part. However, in my experience, embracing femininity improved my performance and advancement. I’ve worked with plenty of women who go totally masculine in the office – every one of them was difficult and unpleasant.
@Tasmin
One of the things I feel I have to do frequently here is argue that gender differences are biological. There is enormous resistance to this idea among feminists, even as the science advances rapidly proving it so. Nearly every study contrasting male and female physiology as it relates to behavior is dismissed as junk science in the feminist media. They’ll go down kicking and screaming in the end, declaring that the world is flat.
Yes! This background anxiety strikes me as an insidious sort of low hum, likes insects buzzing. It’s always there, distracting, making communication a bit more difficult, and generally making people a bit uncomfortable. I think people find relief from it by retreating to the company of others exactly like themselves, and we wind up with pods of people who become entrenched and strident in their views.
I want to second this. It really is fine to behave any way you like. I’m not telling women they have to be feminine. I’m appealing to women who want to attract men. Most men want feminine women. If you talk and dress like a trucker, you may find an outlier who just can’t get enough, but the number of men who feel that way is small.
I’ve got all my money riding on this, and so do a bunch of young women who read here. Many men have said this – I hope that their actions match their words in the end.
Because they can date nice looking women who are LOWER on the socio-economic ladder. That’s much easier!
@SayWhaat
NGII addressed your question to me, but to recap – it’s that no matter what men do, the fact of women experiencing elevated status means that these women are going to be selecting from proportionally fewer men. It’s no ones fault, and there are going to be trade offs for women if men do resume their former proportions in the workplace because they’d do so by replacing women.
The relationship frustrations of professional women are commonly blamed on the failings of men – men aren’t stepping up to make themselves eligible for these amazing women. But this claim is typically based on a generalization of trends among low status men (e.g. lack of education, motivation, foresight etc..). When you look at the behavior of college educated men, it’s actually been very stable in the sense that they’re still pursuing careers, marrying, accumulating assets etc.. So where there is a problem for these women, it’s typically not going to be due to a lack of eligible men.
prediction: no women will take a bit of this advice.
Yes, yes, and double-plus yes.
I’m a long-time reader, first-time poster.
Anyhow, I myself prefer a good, feminine woman. I used to eat up the feminist claptrap until I read Whiskey, then Roissy, then The Spearhead. At that point, I realized, “You know what? Who says I have to get with some unfeminine harridan? I like womanly women — and they definitely still exist, no matter what the feminists say or think.”
Granted, I can still be friends with a butch-type, but I really feel it for the womanly ones.
I find this nostalgia trend on TV interesting. Also, thank you for this blog, Susan Walsh.
Do you, uh, quite understand what Mad Men is about? I’m not entirely sure you do. The whole point of the show is that it undermines the the romanticized idea of the past (pre-feminist and pre-Freidan, as you put it) by showing how miserable gender roles make everyone, or at least that’s how I read the first three seasons. I suspect that Pan-Am will be similar. And the only reason The Playboy Club exists is that America as a whole has the approximate psychosexual maturity of a 13 year old boy, so a TV show about a softcore porn magazine is automatically going to have a huge audience.
I think that you’re alone in your interpretation.
@Susan
It doesn’t matter if men are equally overweight as far as what men find desirable. The point of this post is to try to get women to become more feminine and thus have happier dating lives. While most men do understand that we should not follow our physical desires in pursuing women for positive relationships, we are simply not capable of ignoring it entirely. All of what you mentioned in your post, while laudable goals, is not going to matter to us if she is overweight. It’s the equivalent of telling a man to improve his chances w/women w/o adopting alpha characteristics.
The problem of female obesity goes double if the point is to bear and raise children. The pregnancy is not going to occur in our bodies. Her being overweight:
1) reduces the chances of conceiving
2) endangers the child’s health
3) is a bad indicator that she is going to have the self control and discipline necessary to be a good mother
Finally, being overweight is really bad for you. If we get married and I have to assume your financial responsibilities, it will very likely lead to higher medical costs that as a man I will be at least partially responsible for.
Women really have a problem confronting this part of the equation. It would appear to be on the level of unpleasantness that men have to deal with “asshole” characteristics that make men like Tucker Max and Roissy successful.
@ Peter Abrolard
Haven’t seen the show, so I can’t speak to that. But still, I hope TV plays it straight more often. Men really are different from women, and these differences do not make women stupider.
Besides, women today are highly privileged: men have many duties to women, but women have absolutely no duties to men. Men are “sexists” and “pigs” for stating what kind of women they like (or flirting with several women), but women are “empowered” and “taking control of their sexuality” when they state what they want in a man or flirt at will. Men have to “man up” to make some woman’s life easier, but if you ask a woman to act more ladylike, you become some kind of evil Talibanesque sexist.
Maybe things were broken back in the day, but the current state of affairs is a terrible replacement.
Both men and women should be able to flirt in peace without judgement, the way I see it.
Notes to self:
1. Avoid this “girl” at all costs.
2. Counsel her partner on the benefits of the red pill and Game.
I’ve read men are better at maintaining acquaintances whereas women skew toward deeper relationships with friends.
Google+ is Google’s Facebook killer, but so far its user base is 88% male.
Some suggested this is because the early adopter tech crowd is nerdy and male. That said Facebook had a balanced gender ratio from day one.
I think what’s going on with Google+ is deeper than that. The whole point of Google+ is you can pretty easily restrict what you share to friends, family, coworkers and / or people you don’t know.
Generally speaking women aren’t that into sharing with people they don’t know. These “circles” features won’t work as a selling point with women. Also Google+ doesn’t have fields for favorite books, movies, or interests. It’s slightly formal like LinkedIn, but clean the way Facebook used to be.
I think Facebook becomes the female network and Google+ the male network.
Google+ will sink
The whole point of the show is that it undermines the the romanticized idea of the past (pre-feminist and pre-Freidan, as you put it) by showing how miserable gender roles make everyone, or at least that’s how I read the first three seasons.
Yes, but it backfired. What you had was a lot of women swooning over the Draper character, who was supposed to be a villain archetype of the abuses of the pre-Friedan partriarchy. Didn’t play that way with a lot of female viewers, some of whom openly lamented that men weren’t, in some ways, more like Draper than they are today (sans the cheating, the drinking, etc.). I think that’s what Susan’s talking about. The show was definitely *intended* to portray “the bad old days” as a kind of anti-nostalgia antidote, but that backfired in a big way among a good number of the female viewers.
Generally speaking women aren’t that into sharing with people they don’t know. These “circles” features won’t work as a selling point with women. Also Google+ doesn’t have fields for favorite books, movies, or interests. It’s slightly formal like LinkedIn, but clean the way Facebook used to be.
I think Facebook becomes the female network and Google+ the male network.
Except that Google+ allows you easier control than FB does over whom you share things with. The functionality is there in FB, too, but like many other FB functionalities, is buried in menus and not user-friendly.
Having said that, Google+ is going to bomb. It may attract some geeks, but that’s it. The switching costs are way too high, given that virtually everyone is already on Facebook. It was a nice try by Google, though — but they are way too far behind the 8-ball when it comes to social –> it isn’t in Google’s DNA, really.
I agree for the most part. However, in my experience, embracing femininity improved my performance and advancement.
I will go on a limb and say that a woman that has a negative idea of anything related with femininity spents a great deal of the time second guessing her choices at work, measuring how it will come across. That per se should be enough to change your behavior in contrast with a woman that is not trying to proof anything but get the work done. I imagine that if you needed help or assistance you weren’t spending anytime worrying about looking weak, while a woman that wants to be perceived as a leader will very likely try to do all the job alone or only with trusted friends taking more time than any other woman that doesn’t.
I’ve worked with plenty of women who go totally masculine in the office – every one of them was difficult and unpleasant.
The funny thing is that anger/difficult are also emotional responses, no one that has to work 8 hours under the same roof of other people should want to make this time harder than it should be in anyone else, specially not a guy. Thus changing femininity for masculinity doesn’t really make the woman look good at all, just scary, unapproachable and emotional in a different way, YMMV.
Nice post. Yes, men want feminine women. The masculine nature of most modern women is a huge turn off. Who wants that, except perhaps the the lesbian undercurrent that drives most of modern feminism.
And yes, flying was once a cultured experienced, where people dressed up and got served by pretty stewardesses. Who can possibly say that the modern experience of flying is somehow better? Now it is little more than a huge cattle drive, with the cattle dressed up like slobs and rude idiots.
Mad Men is written by women. Fuck that show.
Can someone explain the quote to me? I’m not quite sure what it means.
@CrisisEraDynamo
Thanks for de-lurking, nice to meet you! I think it’s really important for men to draw the line on this. Reward feminine women! When women see that it works, they’re more likely to ditch the cultural programming.
@Peter,Brendan
Whatever the original intention of Mad Men, it struck something like longing among it’s viewers. And it’s not just with women – men go crazy for Joanie and rave about Betty Draper’s beauty, but no one wants Peggy the ugly duckling career girl. If Peggy was supposed to represent the ideal female, they shouldn’t have made her personal life such a mess. She’s also the least attractive of the female characters, which doesn’t help.
The relationships in the show don’t seem any more dysfunctional than contemporary ones, and the visuals are a treat.
@ Susan Walsh
Thanks. Glad to be here. Though Mad Men seems intriguing, it doesn’t sound like my kind of thing.
Men don’t ‘love to be teased’, women love to be teased.
Love Mad Men – great acting, writing and yes Betty is beautiful, but what a horrible, unloving mother; am I the only once who’s noticed that? Can’t be.
Question for you Susan and no mockery, snark intended whatsoever:
You’ve changed your position on issues apparently quite a bit marching thru life (nothing wrong with that). To compete in the career world, and it’s only going to get worse as the economy continues to “transition,” a woman needs a bit of toughness, sometimes a lot. This seems to be a turn-off to some men, especially the ones congregating here. Also, men apparently don’t care that much about a woman’s job title, education, etc. — youth and beauty, fertility matter most, so maybe breast implants or rhinoplasty are a better investment than a scrap of paper from a university? Roissy has said he’d pay for a daughter’s beautification efforts if he had a daughter (not likely to happen).
If you could do it over again, would you attend college and grad school? Was the bang worth all the bucks (no, I’m not talking about that kind of bang!). Do you recommend college/grad school for today’s young women? Graduates now are racking up some enormous debts for degrees they may not really use or need. Would you personally like to see women back peddle on the careers and focus more on wife/motherhood skills; it would open more jobs up for males.
I don’t social network switching costs are that high. I have 1,000 FB friends but it was pretty easy to isolate the 20 or so people to invite to Google plus. It was the early adopters that I see, talk to, and the people that comment on my post.
Your friend is like retained earnings on a balance sheet whereas your true friends are this quarters earnings report.
It seems like Google+ already has more than 1 million users with pent up demand from up to 10 million other people. It’s easy to turn your Gmail into Google plus and everyone has email.
The only way they screw up is if the try to kill Facebook the way Microsoft tried to kill Netscape, by demanding all Gmail users do Google plus.
A lot of Facebook users are sick of the games, ads, and privacy issues. Facebook started with highly educated people but it’s growth today comes from third world countries and former MySpace users.
If that original Facebook crowd goes Google+, game over.
Tsk tsk tsk. Typing on an iPhone is harder than it looks!
Correction:
1. I don’t think social networking switching costs are that high
2. Your friend list is like retained earnings
You’re missing the point, it’s not about which person is the best for the position, but that as women climb the ladder they’ll have a smaller group of men to choose or rather look up to and choose.
And that’s the thing, you’re making an extra effort to stay in shape, most people out there just say “meh” and bloat like balloons.
As sexist as it sounds, because they’re women and because unlike men their SMV is directly tied to her looks. Now, am i saying that men should let themselves go? no, but it’s far more a key point to women than men.
I’m also not advocating for shaming for being fat, i am fat (think Brad Garret with a beer belly)and i was shamed about it as a kid and it’s not something that builds self steem, but i won’t advocate to overlook it either, i’m not saying people should be ripped super athletes but they should have somewhat good fitness level, whatever that means to you.
Yeah, staying in shape and not overeating is always a good idea, whatever your sex.
Shaming men for perceived low status (eg: “OMG what a loser/creeper/dork”) happens all the time. With this in mind, it’s a perfectly legitimate practice to shame women for being fat: in both cases, the SMV of the person is what’s being attacked.
“Americans are in search of the feminine. Give yourself permission to be a woman. You know you want to…”
I think there is much to this. I recall when I was in college in the 90′s girls who were *girly* (wore dresses occasionally, were femme) seemed a little out of place, but they were so intriguing. The pornified raunch thing strikes me as a lame attempt to get back some of what traditional femininity had.
Well, like you pointed out Susan, compare the women of Mad Men to the Jersey Shore cast. That’ll give you an idea of what’s really appealing and what’s wrong these days.
Lucy says:
July 8, 2011 at 9:10 pm
1. When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.
2. Playfulness huh? Sounds an awful lot like ditzyness to me. No thanks, not interested.
3. I’m not going to beat around the bush for the mere sake of being subtle.
4. Just because men perceive does not mean it is the truth. My partner (male) is far more emotional than I will ever be and I’m not planning on faking to become the ‘sensitive type’ even if he did so desire it.
5. I like pants. Get over it.
6. Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.
@Kate
I totally understand where your coming from. What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?
I totally agree with both of you. Women are different, not all women want to act feminine all the time. What we perceive today as feminine is a social construction from a long time ago, it doesn’t really exist. Native American women did not have a “feminine walk” or display a different “emotional intelligence. And while it might be beneficial to act nurturing and flirtatious when trying to find a man, the office is not the place for showing off how feminine you are!
@ Jules
This culture-wide attempt to turn women into poor copies of men is a very sinister “social construction,” one too many men have been harmed by.
I’ll give you this much: there is evidence that tomboyishness comes from genetic and prenatal factors (though it doesn’t usually lead to lesbianism) and that the office isn’t the place to get all lovey-dovey, since you’re there to work. However, us preferring nicer, more feminine women is no different than a woman’s preference for bold, confident alphas.
Regarding the Native American thing, I know of no traditional culture that pretended that men and women were interchangeable, then tried to enforce this falsehood with shoddy attempts at thought control (I’m indicting modern culture, not you personally.)
If a woman wants me to do for her, she must bring something to the table.
Blues said:
“As sexist as it sounds, because they’re women and because unlike men their SMV is directly tied to her looks. Now, am i saying that men should let themselves go? no, but it’s far more a key point to women than men.”
_________________
I have a very nitpicky, ticky-tack comment about this. It’s not necessarily directed at you, either, but at the type of guy who consistently parrots the “It doesn’t matter what I look like! I’m a guy!” line.
I know you’re acknowledging that being in shape is important to men, but I think you’re still understating how important it actually is, and why. To illustrate, I’ll give yet another long winded personal story. If you’re tired of my BS (and really – who could blame you?), just skip to the last few paragraphs.
About six years ago, I got hurt really bad – like a month in the hospital bad. At the time, I was in a very strenuous branch of the military. Guys in my unit would eat 3 MREs (field rations) per day – that’s about 6,000 calories – and not gain an ounce of weight. We actually struggled to keep from turning into skin and bones.
Now, when I got hurt, I still ate like I was humping 90lbs of gear and running after Ali Baba all the live-long day. As a result, I put on some weight. I got out of the service, and sat around for awhile. I was in a fair amount of pain and really depressed. I still ate like a grunt. I got a little spare tire.
Now, I’m a sort-of decent looking guy (my mommy says I’m handsome, so I know it’s true). I’m tall and have good hair. I felt like ass, though. I wasn’t like I used to be – I felt broken, weak, and used up. I couldn’t take a deep breath when I tied my shoes – my gut was in the way. For whatever reason, girls would still tell my friends they thought I was cute.
Long story short, I got better, started working out again, and eating like a human being instead of some MARPAT beast of burden. One day I was leaving my house to go to work (I was a bouncer at the time), and my roommate’s smokin’ hot girlfriend complimented me on my physique and asked for some workout/diet tips.
I felt like a million bucks.
I’d never had so many phone numbers/flirting/unsolicited grinding etc. offered to me as I did in the next six hours.
Now, I looked pretty much the same as I did the night before. I act the same, basically stupid way all the time – so why did I get so much feminine attention that night?
It’s because I felt great about myself for the first time in awhile, and it showed. I had a little extra swagger, and a big boost to my confidence.
THAT is why being in shape matters to guys. It’s not 100% how you look – it’s 10000% how you feel about how you look.
Maybe my game is weak, or I lack Shaolin-like state control, or I’m bone lazy at heart – but it’s way, way easier to get in shape than it is to get your game good enough that being out of shape truly doesn’t matter.
That is a choice men get to make – spend 15-20 hours a week “gaming” women until they’re proficient enough to overcome 30lbs of gut-and-handles, or spend 5-7 hours/week throwing some iron and doing some old fashioned PT – I think both are equally effective at initially attracting women. One leaves you with a lot more free time. Use a little of that time to work on your game and the rest to work on your mission, and you’ll be unstoppable.
@Dogsquat: i read your whole comment and i agree with you, in fact that is my case, i exercise both to stay in shape AND to relieve work stress, having decent stamina for that weekend of mind blowing sex with an HB10 is just a nice bonus (mainly cause i still have to land said HB10, but i’m working on that).
However i’ll say that i also exercised way before i learned game and even when i lost 50 pounds the results were not very different even with the solid confidence boost i got back then. To be fair i have not had “results” yet, but just by knowing game i at least have a better understanding where i stand with women instead of having this feeling of uncertainty wondering if i’m wasting my time or not on a girl, so why not having the best of both and keep it in balance?
Congratulations on your success.
Well, game comes in a lot of forms. For some people, it’s the sum of internal and external techniques they read in a book. For others, it’s offering cocaine to a girl to get her back to the house. If it works, it works.
Dogsquat
How long did it take you to get back in shape?
@Kate
I totally understand where your coming from. What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?
@Lucy,
.
As Susan pointed out, these “rules” are for women interested in attracting men. If you are not interested in attracting men, then it is a moot point, and yes you should most definitely disregard them all.
.
Very interesting pushback on this. Really the other side of the coin to supplicating betas who refuse to accept they will have to learn some Game to become attractive to a wider population of women.
.
I do think some women are inherently more masculine, and that is OK, but I think many women act more masculine because it has been ingrained in them that makes them “empowered” and any inkling of traditional femininity is bad.
.
Excellent comment from Tasmin that really covers the bases. For Kate and Lucy, a question. Are you both heterosexual? If so, how has your current behavior worked in terms of your dating and relationships with men? If it working, more power to you. If not, and you are NOT getting what you want in terms of relationships with men, maybe it is time to put aside the feminist dogma just for a moment, and do some introspecting about what most men find attractive in women.
To compete in the career world, and it’s only going to get worse as the economy continues to “transition,” a woman needs a bit of toughness, sometimes a lot. This seems to be a turn-off to some men, especially the ones congregating here.
.
Don’t disagree with that. Career/work is one thing and sexual/romantic relationships another. It is not some Herculean feat to be “tough” in the workplace and then to some extent turn it off in your dating life.
dating partners are not business competitors
BTW for the ones trying to get in shape, intermittent fasting is the shit
Been doing it for about a month, already lost 4kg of fat (down to 21% BF), and no muscle loss so far. Six pack here we go
http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html
Yohami: I am not so sure. I was once at an Ashtanga Vinyasa retreat for five weeks where I would have a light meal at 18, get to bed at 21, get up at 6 and then do breathing exercises and an aerobics type asana practice for 3 hours. Large breakfast at 9.30-10.00. Sure, people said that I looked more ripped, but when I got back I checked my weight and BF, and it had not changed much, so I think that impression came more from my sun tan giving more definition.
You already ARE lying to men by being a feminist and denying us the femininity we desire. Deep down, down below the magazine and academic propaganda, you don’t want to be a man and men don’t want you to be one either. Being anything other than a woman is cheating yourself and all men out of happiness. Got it?
______________________
In other words ladies, stop all ambition, go back to being the mans servant, cook, clean, raise the kids, and when it comes to sex, just lie back and let him do his thing. Then both sides will be happy!……..
We men often forget men and women rolls were brought about by necessity. It was about survival. Men had to hunt for food, cut the wood to burn, that left women to raise kids and cook. That is was what life was all about, survival. Point is technology, changed all that.
A 500 a day calorie deficit is better and more reliable than fasting or other shit.
Eat less and lift weights.
Yohami wrote:
Leangains is the real deal.
I would also recommend Martin’s Top Ten Diet Myths to HUS readers.
theres some science about what happens in the body when you dont eat ANYTHING from periods of 16-20 hs a day… I´ll know for sure in a couple of so months
the 500 calorie deficit is a must too
But I have gotten lean before. Lots of times. I lost most of my muscles while at it. And then got buffy AND fat when training again. So this might work -or not, I´ll figure out
I think the idea that a woman has to be unfeminine/humorless/insensitive/not-nice in order to be a career success has been greatly oversold…I know plenty of counterexamples. I suspect that the people doing the selling of this meme tend to have fairly limited personal experience in the world of work, at least outside of academia and publishing.
There is absolutely nothing shameful or demeaning about being feminine. At all. I think for a while now being feminine is being perceived as being weak and inferior. You can be strong yet feminine, and equal at the same time
I practice ninjutsu (male dominated and violent ) but essentially I am still sweet and girly
@Lavazza
If you looked ripped but had similar weight you probably did lose weight in fat but gained muscle, personally i wouldn’t mind gaining 20 pounds if i looked more athletic and ripped, my problem is killing the beer belly and adding said “solution” seamlessly into my daily routine.
Back when i lost the 50 pounds? i did it jogging 45 minutes twice a day (but that was during a lapse of 3 months i had nothing else to do because college was on strike), one in the morning and one in the afternoon and regulating carbs and sweets while upping consumption of vegetables, fruits and proteins. I was able more or less able to keep the changes into my eating habits but not the jogging part, at least not like that, all i can do currently fit into my current schedule is jog 3 times a week and sometimes the weather shits on my plans so it’s not even a sure thing. I’ve considered doing some weight lifting on the rainy days but don’t have a clear plan yet and i’d like something focused almost exclusively into getting rid of the beer belly instead of muscle gain first.
I’m going to look into the leangains articles and see what i can get from it, thanks for the info. Has anyone read The 4 Hour Body? any comments on that?.
Peter Abrolard, your camel-toe is showing Sir.
@Blues: The best book I have ever read on exercise is Power To The People by Pavel Tsatsouline.
Pavel endorses Ori Hofmekler’s Warrior Diet, which is one form of intermittent fasting.
@Johnny Milfquest: thanks for the info, i’ll get it and read ASAP.
This is great advice for females.
Lol, Susan has some haters.
Lol, Susan has some haters.
That is more like it.:)
I’m pretty sure all the sluts are going to come here read and then write pieces rationalizing their lifestyle as better than sliced bread and how feminists need to unite themselves because we still live in slut-shaming times, blah, blah empowerment, blah, blah, get the hell out of my vagina, blah, blah victim blaming…wash, rinse,repeat.
Haters gonna keep hatin’
Drugstore Game:
Hit on this girl on line at CVS a few hours ago. Easily a 9 out of 10. She had a tattoo in sanskrit on the back of her left shoulder, and commenting on it and touching it (something I read about in the Roosh book), I ended up chatting her up for about a half hour or so in the parking lot. Didn’t lead to much, but we exchanged cell numbers and have plans to hang out. So I’m enjoying some Dave Matthews and a cigar of all things at the moment feeling like the man. Just thought I’d share….
That doesnt sound feminine. Add hypergamy.
That doesnt sound feminine. Add hypergamy.
I’m starting to think that there is some of strange filter going on in American women,because damn do they interpret everything with the same script “remember that men are humans too, just different” reads “go back to the kitchen!”. “show some prudence” reads “marry a chump and hate sex forever” I insist is something in the water.
drinking water can make you stupid?
In other words ladies, stop all ambition, go back to being the mans servant, cook, clean, raise the kids, and when it comes to sex, just lie back and let him do his thing. Then both sides will be happy!……..
.
Ding, ding, ding (ringing bell)….another one…way too easy.
@Grindl
Sorry to delay in answering your question – I was away this weekend.
How so? I don’t really think this is true – I see my life more as having gone with the flow. I have had very few changes of heart or philosophy in my life.
I disagree. What women need is strength, not toughness. In my professional experience, strong and smart women are rewarded with advancement. “Toughness” is too often women acting like men, implying aggression and competitiveness. I think this also depends on what a woman wants. Of the hundreds of professional women I have known, no more than half a dozen have wanted high-powered career success above all else – and those women are ball busters. They’re extremely effective, very masculine in their work styles, and either single, childless, or in a couple of cases, terrible mothers.
I’m not sure where you get your information but I think this statement is too simplistic. When a men takes the measure of a woman, he is not putting her career or education achievements at the top of the list of priorities. We know that men are very visually oriented – they are sexually attracted to women primarily based on looks. However, many intelligent men appreciate and even require an intelligent mate. I always drew admirers for my intelligence, but that probably wouldn’t have worked if I were ugly. I also wanted a highly intelligent man, and found such men compatible. I think it depends on whether men are seeking a relationship or something casual. For the former, intelligence will play a role, for the latter, not at all.
I would absolutely do it again. Getting an MBA opened up new worlds for me. It was definitely worth the investment. Do I recommend business school for today’s young women? First, I would say that I do not differentiate between the sexes. I recommend business school under the following circumstances:
1. you desire to shift your career in a whole new direction
2. an MBA will catapult you into a new earning bracket
3. you can get into an excellent school
In fact, from everything I’ve heard from lawyers I’d say the same is true for law school. Don’t spend the money unless you can study at a great program and get on the fast track in a field you’re very interested in.
Re business school, I’m not sure it’s as valuable as it once was. Firms used to have “up and out” policies designed to phase young professionals out after two years so they could attend business school. Today I know several firms in Boston that would rather hold onto its young talent and encourage them to study for the CFA instead.
I would never recommend that women as a whole back peddle on careers. Nor am I interested in opening up jobs for males. I believe in gender equity, and believe that competition in the workplace is a good thing. Today women can compete as well as men. However, I have witnessed how difficult it is for women to have families and high-powered careers. When I reluctantly became a SAHM, I found to my disappointment that my working mom friends were quite annoyed. There was lots of eye rolling and “Really? Really Susan?” Over the years, I have found that mothers who work full-time are often resentful of SAHMs. I will also say that nearly all of the women I know who work full-time would like to quit altogether or go to a part-time schedule if they could. Most cannot afford it. I think that my generation’s feelings on the subject can be summed up as “We’re the women who have it all. Well, I don’t want it all.”
drinking water can make you stupid?
Well I’m just trying to find what all this women have in common, air and water are the easiest ones and given that air is harder to tamper with, I’m going for the water supply. All you need to do is plant enough LSD in it and their brains will make them paranoid in no time, which will explain they not getting the message across and reciting feminists platitudes when they have nothing to do with it.
Is very interesting that I had seen similar articles but omitting that this is something men like in women, they are usually framed as feminine and something that will make you feel good and is flattering to their bodies. Is like the reasoning is if men like it or want more of it in women most be oppressive.
@Jules
It’s not about acting feminine, it’s about being feminine. That is achieved by letting your natural femininity develop, without repressing it for fear of not measuring up to feminist ideals.
Females are biologically dramatically different from males. Gender is not a social construct. Observe any preschool group of girls, and you will see femininity. It is only later that girls are taught to repress their natures to act (and think) like males, and shamed for feminine instincts.
On what do you base you claim about Native American women? That strikes me as preposterous. Did Native American women not fulfill the role of primary nurturer with their children? Did their hips not naturally sway in a feminine way as a result of a very different physical body structure from males?
Being feminine in the office does not mean flirting with all the guys instead of doing good work. In my experience, being very good at my job, coupled with a pleasant, friendly and playful demeanor, worked very well in a professional setting. It was especially effective with men
Yes. This will result in weight loss of 1 lb. per week. A good goal when working out is to burn 500 cals. That gives the average woman 1500-2000 cals. to eat for the day.
@GudEnuf
Yeah, Hooking Up Smart is getting raked over the coals in all sorts of places. I truly consider it an achievement, under the heading of “all press is good press.” I think that Sarah chick is an assistant at scarleteen, a sex ed website that actively encourages 14 yo girls to have sex “if they feel like it.” One teen wrote in to ask about her very high number, and Heather Corinna reassured her that she had absolutely nothing to be worried about. Terrible.
Yeah, Hooking Up Smart is getting raked over the coals in all sorts of places.
Heh let me guess you have a google alert with your name and HUS?
@Blues:
You and I are definitely on the same page.
Even learning that there was a type of logic to attraction was a huge help to me. Rather than relying on some mystery/random chance, I could then position myself to get decent opportunities.
I have a suggestion that may help, or it may be impractical:
Go get a part time job in a bar/lounge/club. I think the best gigs to get you where you want to go would be doorguy or bouncer, but anything except for bathroom attendant would work.
You DHV because you’re part of the “in” crowd. You’re supposed to be there (it’s your job, after all) so much of the approach anxiety is gone, and the girls automatically qualify themselves when they first talk to you. It’s like having training wheels for learning a bit of game.
Working for awhile in a bar is the best thing I could’ve done for myself at the time. Just don’t get sucked into that life – there are a lot of people that are seduced by it.
Food for thought, anyway.
BTW – I don’t you/anyone to think I’m some PUA pimp who has women falling all over him all the time. I do all right, but I’m looking for a serious relationship, and I’m not a one-night-stand kind of guy.
very good points you make in the article. i’m absolutely powerless against a “feminine woman”. brings me to my knee’s.
women reading this…….what susan’s posted on this subject works on us fellahs. seriously.
@GudEnuf:
Maybe 4-6 months. It took a year or so before I was healed up enough to do activities I really like.
It’s a lot easier to maintain a good appearance/functional athleticism than it is to achieve it. These days I might go to the gym a couple times a week, and do a couple Krav Maga workouts. As long as I don’t slip up too much with crappy food, I look pretty decent.
Matt T said:
“Well, game comes in a lot of forms. For some people, it’s the sum of internal and external techniques they read in a book. For others, it’s offering cocaine to a girl to get her back to the house. If it works, it works.”
___________________________
You speak the truth, dude.
Hey…uh….do you want a bump? I’ve got another eightball at my place – come on over. We’ll just shoot the shit awhile….
I can only say how much I agree with your post here Susan.
Femininity is a resource in scarce supply, especially in New Zealand.
I think that my generation’s feelings on the subject can be summed up as “We’re the women who have it all. Well, I don’t want it all.”
Your generation should have thought this through, Susan, with all my respect. The whole society changed to follow the whims of women that didn’t know what they wanted and they were not in touch with reality, but they lived a fantasy of “female empowerment”. Every sane opinion was shamed and disregared as male chauvinistic.
Now women have what they fought for. I hope you enjoy it because there is no turning back. You were lucky, Susan, but as I will explain in my next post, most women will have no other option to work as a mother and as a father, while men will have to work less. After the first generation, feminism has been a great deal for men. Alphas are getting sex without commitment. Betas are not getting sex but they don’t have to work for a woman who despise them.
It’s have been ages since I have not posted here. I have had health problems and a surgery. Five years from now I am going to get into the operating room so I will not be able to read the repplies.
I would never recommend that women as a whole back peddle on careers. Nor am I interested in opening up jobs for males. Today women can compete as well as men.
This is fine and dandy and I am for it. But everything comes with a price because there is no perfect solution with all advantages and no disavantage.
The price is:
a) Women will have to work, whether they want it or not. The chances of being SAHM will decrease more and more, until becoming tiny.
b) Women would have to get used to getting married to men that belong to a lower status or they would have to stay single.
The last option will be the majority because you can’t fight against biology. When you do away with all the laws and taboos that enforced the so-called “patriarchy”, people are free to follow their natural instincts. So society devolves to the natural society: the matriarchy of the African savannah. The family is only matriarchal: the father is absent. See the last American Censuses and you will see that every time there are less patriarchal families and there are more “female-headed households”.
More women in the workplace -> Women raise up their status -> Less men of higher status that them. You can’t fight basic logic. At the end of the day, fighting the fact that 2+2 =4 is an exercise in futility.
You can’t have the best of the “patriarchy” and the best of the “matriarchy”. You had it, Susan, because men and women were different then: the patriarchy still lingered in them even when it was already dead (they didn’t completely notice).
The first generation of women after the feminist revolution had it all: casual sex in their twenties, marrying a quality man in their thirties with the picket fence. Career women when they are young and becoming stay-at-home moms (if they wanted so when they discover that job is a grinder and not the dream world they thought these evil men were trying to forbid them).
Very few young women will be able to pull this off. Women’s entrance to the workplace -> More working people -> Purchasing power of salaries drops -> It takes two people working to economically support a family -> Women cannot be SAHM.
Women offering their goods for free to quality men (aka “hook-up”) -> Less quality men willing to commit, less beta men wanting to commit to the women who despised ten years ago in favor of alphas, less women wanting to commit to betas after they tasted the sweet taste of alphas.
Susan, with all my respect and affection, it’s not that you hooked up smart, it’s that you were lucky to be born in the right time.
“Five years from now I am going to get into the operating room so I will not be able to read the repplies.”
Sorry, I meant “five hours from now”. Not that my condition is of any interest but this sentence is weird.
I do, but it’s not very effective. I mostly find out through word of mouth – readers here tip me off a lot. And bloggers usually link.
@imnobody
My generation was raised by the women who ushered in the Women’s Movement. It was our mothers who got this all wrong, and indoctrinated us along the way. It takes a while for research to show that women are a lot less happy in aggregate than they were 40 years ago. Wolfert and Stevenson at Penn just released that finding a couple of years ago, and it caused quite a stir.
Of course there were unintended consequences – there always are when you change society.
@imnobody
It has been ages and it’s really good to see you. I’m sorry to hear you’ve been struggling with health issues. I hope you recover quickly and come back to us with your thoughtful wisdom.
Just to be clear, I am in no way claiming that women should make the same choices I did, or even that I hooked up smart. In fact, I wasn’t strategic at all, I just bumbled along and got lucky, as you say. This is a whole different SMP, and it was my realization of that when my daughter came of age that convinced me young women needed a new kind of advice, and that their mothers were mostly not giving it to them.
Dogsquat,
That was me talking about game and the hipocrisy of the dual mating strategy, btw. Sorry, forgot to type my name in….
@Jules, you poor, ignorant dear.
There is actually no such thing as “Native American women”. You, see the term Native American is an exonym invented by the PC establishment to salve their guilty conscience by lumping a bunch of not-necessarily connected people/cultures together.
If you meant to refer to one of the many Pre-Columbian cultures that existied in the Americas then I have some news for you. In all the cultures I’ve studied gender roles were well defines, non-egalitarian and strictly enforced, often with physical punishment. I am waiting at the edge of my seat for this mythical feminist Shangri-La of genderless or pure matriarchy that exisited somewhere on earth. The best anyone has come up with are some dirt-poor matrilinear(but still patriarchal) societies with very small populations in China and the Amazon.
Susan you asked about Obesity statistics in men vs women and the simple answer is that yes, many more American women are obese than men but it correlates strongly with race, age & income. In some groups, more men are obese than women (white, young, middle or upper class) in most others the opposite is true.
Susan, what a WONDERFUL article!! Well-done.
Dogsquat: as for your suggestion, sad to say it is impractical, i already have my hands pretty much full at the moment and it’s really complicated to add a second job to the mix but thanks anyways, i’ll keep the idea in mind if the chance presents itself.
That makes 2 of us.
@Anon:44pm
Until yesterday i would have thought exactly the same, then i read this
best quote from there
Now i agree that finding one girl quality girl could be up there as the 13th job of Hercules but hey, all you need is 1 from millions.
My advice is to bookmark the site, and read as much as you can from there.
To be or not to be feminine comes down to a choice women have to make regarding which is more important, to be a “silly woman” or to be taken seriously. The way I was raised, I learned that having a job is more important than having a man, that you can only count on yourself.
The only things I’ve gotten for being feminine is: shouted at from men in trucks and ripped-off at the mechanic. There aren’t many rewards for feminine behavior.
I have a serious question for the modern man: How much do you really want a traditionally feminine woman? If you found one, would you marry her or jerk her around? Would you expect her to keep her job and contribute or stay at home and make you comfortable? Is that way of life dead? Do men even want to revive it?
The reason I ask is because I doubt anything would really change, except that it would be easier to identify pushovers and ball-busters.
@Jamie I think that you’re posing a false dichotomy. You’ve equated femininity w/ incompetence and dependency. But neither are necessary for a woman to be feminine. And I don’t think that these are traits that men admire when they say that they prefer feminine women.
Think Kate Middleton, less Lucy Ricardo.
Having played around with how feminine I am, I have a few comments. Like most things in life, it’s a balance. Being feminine doesn’t have to mean subservience, lack of professional success or dressing like Marilyn Monroe. A woman needs to interpret what it means to her. For some, it is about nurturing and providing. For others, it’s about sexuality. I have a friend who is a dyed-in-the-wool lesbian. She is also one of the most nurturing/soft people I know. Another friend is an in-your-face, professional, but dayum, she is sexy as hell and never goes without male companionship. If you choose the mousy librarian, retiring, shy, homebody, type of femininity, you’re going to fail in the SMP.
That said, if you believe that your career makes you more appealing to men, you’re wrong. But don’t give it up because of that, a career is important to support you and give you meaningful work. If your version of playful is a bit more biting and direct, that can work. But ask yourself if the cynicism and back-handed comments are actually hiding some real feelings. If pants are your thing, go for it. But you’re not selling anybody out if they’re fitted, and worn with a feminine touch like a scarf, nice top or sexy shoes.
To me, being feminine is beyond behavior or dress. It’s being more in touch with my own emotions. For a long time I believed that men didn’t like women who cried or got upset. Turns out some emotional vulnerability is not only attractive, but required in a genuine, intimate relationship.
The only things I’ve gotten for being feminine is: shouted at from men in trucks and ripped-off at the mechanic. There aren’t many rewards for feminine behavior.
I think you are placing the blame in the wrong part. The mechanic didn’t take advantage of your femininity but your lack of knowledge about the cars. If you knew your way around cars you could had been wearing a 50′s vintage dress and you could had been able to tell when they were being dishonest. In situations like this get a friend (male or female) that knows about cars to come with you or to tell you a good place to take your car that has honest mechanics. Even men are taken advantage off is the mechanic is dishonest and sees that he won’t be able to tell, YMMV.
I wanted to add that I know this because my father is a mechanic. I can’t count the times he got new clients or old clients that moved far away and tried to get another mechanic come back because they were tricked on their money or the mechanic fixed the problem the had and “broke” something else to get them to come back and this was a problem for men and women. My father was one of the few honest ones, but in the country there is a whole popular wisdom that says “don’t trust a lawyer,or a mechanic” I used to take a bit of offense in that one “Hey my daddy is a mechanic” my friends used to say don’t trust mechanics excepts Steph’s dad
BLues,
That’s all well and good. If you find someone you jibe with completely, then I wish you the best of luck. If I happen to meet a girl who isn’t a hypocritical slut for bad asses and jerks, and doesn’t want a decent guy in a relationship and a jerk for a fantasy fling…. then maybe I’ll consider marriage.
@Jamie
This dichotomy is precisely what feminism taught us, but it’s extremely limiting. Being silly or serious is not the choice you face. You can be feminine and taken very seriously. You can be masculine and act like a fool.
You can have a job and have a man. Do you really want to go through life counting only on yourself? Marriage is a partnership, and I recommend it as a way to go through life.
From your question to the guys, I get the impression you think femininity = washing diapers, cooking dinner and acting stupid. This makes me think you haven’t known any feminine women. Look again at the list of traits in the post. A strong, accomplished woman can be all of those things. To deny yourself that part of your nature is a waste.
@Jack & Stephanie
I’m not talking about ACTUAL incompetence or dependence, but the PERCEPTION of these qualities.
Case in point: Stephanie automatically assumed I know nothing about cars and that it’s my fault for getting screwed. PLEASE. I check my own fluids, change my own tires, if I had the equpment, I could do my own oil changes, but I’d rather spend the money and get the free car wash. But even then, it’s still common practice do draw up a long list of “necessary” repairs for a woman. Funny, because that never happens when my brother or gay bff comes with me to pick up the car. (the latter being the most infuriating because I’M the one who taught gay bff how to handle an overheated radiator…but I digress)
I’m just saying, it’s a rough world and I’m taking care of myself, which requires a certain degree of toughness and savvy. People will take advantage of someone they perceive to be weak. Traditional femininity required someone strong to protect women (or an institution) where modern society dictates that I protect myself. Believe me, I’d love to pass the reins and have one less thing to worry about, but I’m not going to tell men to “step up”, that’s kind of the whole point, men are off the hook, I got this. Is the ability to protect myself abhorrent because I’m a woman?
Ladies: Stop with the spitting and belching and cover your yawns.
Do I even have to say this?
Thank god I can still fart.
@Susan
It would be more true to say that I’ve never known any women who could depend on their men. So we had to be both feminine and masculine in order to survive.
Case in point: Stephanie automatically assumed I know nothing about cars and that it’s my fault for getting screwed.
??? I said that it doesn’t matter the gender. All the stories of people getting screwed up were both men and women. Again where did I blamed you? A dishonest mechanic is dishonest regardless.
Is the ability to protect myself abhorrent because I’m a woman?
Again you are confusing the term, you can protect yourself and being feminine.
Also by your own addition you are not acting feminine and you still get the list of unnecessary repairs for being a woman. So it doesn’t make any difference you think they would treat you different if you acted like a though woman?
There is a scene in legally blonde when a store owner wanted to trick Ellie because she though she was stupid, Ellie showed her that she knew her fashion and she was all embarrassed, that is how you treat those people. Shame them into not trying to trick other people. And really if anyone ever did that to me I would tell them that this is the last time I take my car there and find an honest mechanic. I don’t reward fraudulent people with my money or time,YMMV.
Steph,
@Jesus
Not FOR me, with me. You know, when you need someone to pick you up from/drive you to the garage. But then the mechanic mainly addresses the man and virtually ignores me even though it’s MY car and I’m the one paying for repairs. Like he automatically assumes the my feeble female mind can’t possibly comprehend what he’s saying. I didn’t think this needed clarification, as this sort of thing happens all the time. Maybe it’s just me.
So you don’t depend on them to come with you. Not like they’re giving you a ride up there and you’re asking them to come in so you don’t get screwed over… Not like that at all I’m sure, because you can’t depend on men.
Men love feminine women, but they do rely on women to manage the household and that does mean he expects the women to take the car to the auto mechanic if he had to go out of town on business. She has to navigate the household maintenance including calling the plumber or roofer especially if the man isn’t home. She is best to be at home when the washer is broken and needs repair. I try to be at home during most of these household maintenance chores needs to be done, but for things like a broken washer, which cannot be delayed, she needs to get the job done. Thanksfully, she doesn’t protest. I do know women who do protest. They think men should do their 50% and call the mechanic or they are irrational and think the repairman will harrass them. They are also not very feminine.
@ Jesus
I think everyone in this forum agrees that NAMALT (or NAWALT) arguments are pretty worn out. I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here.
Only that you claim that it’s true that you can’t depend on men, while that doesn’t seem to be the case.
I didn’t think this needed clarification, as this sort of thing happens all the time.
Well the thing is that this is an easily solved problem. Your friend can tell him to talk to you, since you are the owner. You can tell him to talk to you because you are the owner.
Taking this treatment silently only confirms his idea that you don’t understand “car talk”, proof him wrong if you do. If he does that a second time. You can tell him that unless he wants to lose a client he better addresses you all the time you bring your car. Third time is the moment to find a new mechanic. See? No need to suffer because some men have certain expectations, IME men are very open to NAWALT as long as you put your money where your mouth is. If you keep just accepting “all men will be misogynist because I’m a woman” then all men will be misogynist not because you are a woman but because you just take it and add it to your list of reasons “why being a woman sucks”. This mechanics are not your bosses you are the one paying for the service, they are they ones that have everything to lose if they don’t treat you in the way you want to be treated, but they are not psychic, clear speech is God’s gift, YMMV.
@jesus
That is 2 people, one I’ve known for over 12 years and another I’ve known his whole life. There is a massive difference between my brother and some guy who wants to get under my skirt now, but may change his mind later.
I will be sure to clarify all statements suggesting that I cannot depend on men with a disclaimer, “-with the exception of a few family members and old friends.”
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