Feminism vs. Femininity

July 12, 2011

What we ought to see in the agonies of puberty is the result of the conditioning that maims the female personality in creating the feminine. 

Germaine Greer


As a result of the feminist revolution, “feminine” becomes an abusive epithet. 

Wyndham Lewis

 

My recent post challenging women to “try on” more femininity this summer elicited a variety of extremely interesting responses from women. I thought I’d highlight some of them, because they demonstrate clearly how women have been conditioned to respond to the word feminine.

“If someone doesn’t already act that way, it’s probably not in their nature.”

“What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?”

“When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.”

“Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.”

“I remember when I was much younger, I used to think that it was more important to behave like a tomboy, because it seemed like everybody in the movies/mass media gave attention to those girls. They were the independent, rough-and-tumbleweed sort of girls who men found adorable and, once they received male attention, blossomed into feminine creatures.”

“A few years ago, I worked part-time as staff in my school’s gym, and one of my co-workers remarked that I was probably the most feminine girl out of everyone we worked with. I took it as a semi-insult because in my mind, feminine = weak and flirty-stupid. I thought he wasn’t taking me seriously as a person.”

“Androgyny makes me happy; femininity feels like I’m in drag for my own damn gender…So, no, not all women are “naturally” feminine.”

“Women are different, not all women want to act feminine all the time. What we perceive today as feminine is a social construction from a long time ago, it doesn’t really exist.”

“There is absolutely nothing shameful or demeaning about being feminine. At all. I think for a while now being feminine is being perceived as being weak and inferior. You can be strong yet feminine, and equal at the same time.”

“To be or not to be feminine comes down to a choice women have to make regarding which is more important, to be a “silly woman” or to be taken seriously. The way I was raised, I learned that having a job is more important than having a man, that you can only count on yourself.”

“To me, being feminine is beyond behavior or dress. It’s being more in touch with my own emotions. For a long time I believed that men didn’t like women who cried or got upset. Turns out some emotional vulnerability is not only attractive, but required in a genuine, intimate relationship.”

 

As you can see, there is considerable confusion about the concept of the feminine among contemporary young women, as well as decidedly different political philosophies.

Those who view society through the backdrop of hegemonic masculinity believe that “Femininity is constructed around adaptation to male power. Its central feature is attractiveness to men, which includes physical appearance, ego-massaging, suppression of “power” emotions such as anger, nurturance of children, exclusive heterosexuality, sexual availability without sexual assertiveness, and sociability.”

Laura Kipnis writing in Slate about American women’s obsession with fat, despite feminist efforts to abolish fat shaming:

“Femininity is a system that tries to secure advantages for women, primarily by enhancing their sexual attractiveness to men. It also shores up masculinity through displays of feminine helplessness or deference. But femininity depends on a sense of female inadequacy to perpetuate itself. Completely successful femininity can never be entirely attained.

Feminism, on the other hand, is dedicated to abolishing the myth of female inadequacy. It strives to smash beauty norms, it demands female equality in all spheres, it rejects sexual market value as the measure of female worth. Or that was the plan. Yet for all feminism’s social achievements, what it never managed to accomplish was the eradication of the heterosexual beauty culture, meaning the time-consuming and expensive potions and procedures—the pedicures, highlights, wax jobs on sensitive areas, “aesthetic surgery,” and so on. For some reason, the majority of women simply would not give up the pursuit of beautification, even those armed with feminist theory…Will femininity continue to beat down the feminist challenge? It’s been remarkably tenacious to date.”

In other words, femininity cannot be conditioned out of us, because it is part of our nature. Like it or not, women do want to look and act female, we just don’t know how.  One new study shows that perceptions of masculine = tough and feminine = tender are hard-wired in the brain.

“A new study published in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science, finds these stereotypes have some real bodily truth for our brains; when people look at a gender-neutral face, they are more likely to judge it as male if they’re touching something hard and as female if they’re touching something soft.”

My generation was actively discouraged from femininity – we were taught that “feminine wiles” were a shameful way of getting what one wanted. When I was about 15, my mother attended an “Assertiveness Training” seminar, quite a popular thing for housewives to do in 1971. After that, scenes like this were commonplace at our house:

Dad: I’m home! What’s for dinner?

Mom: Are you not capable of roasting a chicken? Will you starve if I don’t get every goddamn meal for you?

Dad: (utterly bewildered) I’ve been at the office all day…

Mom: Oh, look at the breadwinner, kids! Here’s the man who has all the fun, all the power in this house!

Dad walks to the dining room and pours himself a martini, no vermouth. Mom runs a hot bath and scrawls “Bastard!” on the mirror with lipstick.

 

Yeah, that was a bad time. I am Sally Draper.

Are you surprised that my generation of women has not even understood whether or how to teach our daughters to enjoy their natural femininity? It has largely vanished from American culture.

Check this email I got from a reader yesterday:

As a 23 year old girl (woman?) I appreciate your blog greatly.  In reflecting on my relations with boys (men?) in my college years, your writing has brought much clarity to my previously-unexamined life.

In particular, I’ve been struggling with embracing femininity.  I was raised as a competitive, proud, tomboy, and while there are plenty of wonderful things I’ve gotten from that (work ethic, team-player, yadda yadda yadda), femininity is not one.  I didn’t know what conditioner was until I got to college, and I didn’t start wearing makeup until I entered the work force a year ago.

Your challenge to be more feminine struck a chord with me, as I’ve been inching that way on my own.  I’ve started dance lessons (and I’m still a horrible follow), and I’m growing out my hair and nails.  That and the cooking.

So I think I’ve got a better grasp on how to look feminine, and maybe of feminine grace, but I am really clueless about how to “talk” like a woman or be subtle, and I’m about as emotionally perceptive as a rock.  I work in the male-dominated field of engineering and the women I work with are, well, practically men.  You wouldn’t believe the way my boss (f) sneers when I wear a (below the knee, gray, pencil) skirt to work!

What I’m getting at is that I don’t really have any feminine role models.  I know that term sounds silly (what am I twelve?) but I was hoping you might have some suggestions: books or movies or places to meet feminine women?

That’s a really good question – my mind immediately flies to Jane Austen – yes, her characters are nearly 200 years old, but they knew how to be female in a way that we do not. I’m not talking about playing the pianoforte or embroidering tapestry – Austen’s heroines conduct themselves with grace and dignity. She also gives us plenty of examples of unfeminine women – Lydia Bennet (silly and graceless), Elizabeth Eliot (selfish and shallow), Augusta Elton (obnoxious and domineering), just to name a few.

I’m hard-pressed to think of an answer for real life. I think we have to find examples wherever we can, and we need to look to women “of a certain age.” Today I was visiting at a local hospital, and while waiting I had an opportunity to observe a large group of women – nurses, physicians, administrators. There was a nurse who looked like a trucker, and spoke like one. There was a woman doc who had the demeanor of someone sniffing something decidedly unpleasant (a real possibility, I admit).

There was one nurse who stood out. She was very feminine. I watched her for a while to determine what set her apart. She wore scrubs, but instead of baggy blue ones, had on slim black pants and a dark green fitted top with snaps. She wore small earrings. She had on no make up, but she looked very clean and fresh. She was smiling, and she interacted with visitors and staff in a cheerful and warm way. There was nothing loud about her, nothing aggressive. She was in her mid-60s, I’d guess. She shone in comparison to all the other women. I hope I can do as well in ten years.

 

Meanwhile, fellow blogger Bbsezmore took up the Summer Femininity Challenge and filed her first and second field reports today! First, she planned an outing with two friends, including lunch and shopping.

“We had a great time at lunch, enjoying the food and each other’s company. Afterward we went next door to a clothing shop and wandered around. It contained three things that caught my eye: Entre Nous (a book about finding your inner French Girl), and two summer dresses that were modern interpretations of mid-century dresses. They were extremely feminine. The black one had a half-petticoat underneath (!) and the plum dress had ruffles.

It occurs to me that a woman could do worse than study French women for lessons in femininity. They make it look effortless – it’s not of course, but that’s the point. They learn the art of femininity from infancy.

I tried both the dresses on, and thought they worked well. Kate approved of the black dress. Farah approved the plum dress. I bought both, along with Entre Nous

Bb has promised future installments in her quest for femininity, and BbMan is looking forward to the experiment. Sounds like things are already heating up at the Bb house. Check out the FR#1 here and FR#2 here. (Tip: in Field Report 2 Bb helpfully summarizes the key points of Entre Nous.)

I’m not qualified to give advice on how to be feminine. I’m guilty of having nurtured the feisty tomboy persona myself. That’s why I’m all ears when men describe what femininity is and why they value it. It’s clear they know it when they see it. In closing, I’ll share with you reader detinennui32’s first of 10 Commandments for Women:

1. Thou shalt cultivate a feminine demeanor and bearing. Thou shalt not try to be, look like, or act like a man. Thou shalt observe and obey this Commandment above all others.

This is the key point, it seems to me. Don’t be anything like a dude. Be the opposite. I really believe it will feel like coming home.

4 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Rum

    Women these days have no idea how much benefit to themselves they are sacrificing by presenting a “I don’t need a man” persona. Most guys are instinctively wired to be much less supportive of such types.
    This impacts every arena of life. And expecting sex has very little to do with it.

  • jz

    Entre Nous advocates liberal casual sex; read it critically.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    I couldn’t help but notice that the complimentary advice for men is just as sound, even if it’s characteristically more terse than your commandment #1 for women.

    That would be, simply, Be a Man.

    But yeah, it’s a whole ‘nother topic.

  • anonymous

    Coupled with articles like the one below along with their lack of femininity, I dare say women are getting the men they deserve. You are driving your men into being cads or loners, both extreme, but YOU are the root cause of all of it GALS.

    …she describes her perfect man in these words: ‘Someone who is good looking . . . with a good sense of humour . . . believes in old-fashioned chivalry . . . is confident, sophisticated, intelligent and athletic . . . who has integrity, honesty and is family oriented, and who knows me better than I know myself.’

    Could such a man really exist? She goes on: ‘I realise I have just described Andrew.’

    What a pity she didn’t see him quite that way when she was married to him and he was often away at sea.

    There was her wild infatuation with Texan oilman Steve Wyatt, with whom, according to Madame Vasso — the Duchess’s psychic confidante — sex was ‘wildly ecstatic’, though dull with Andrew.

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/the-duchess-of-post-marital-spinsterhood/

  • Mike C

    I’m hard-pressed to think of an answer for real life. I think we have to find examples wherever we can, and we need to look to women “of a certain age.”
    .
    Here are 3 older women who I’ve seen interviewed a few times that strike me as both feminine yet also strong:

    1. Racquel Welch
    2. Jane Seymour
    3. Suzanne Somers

  • GudEnuf

    Normally I would be in the mood to defend feminism. But a certain feminist and his groupies left me feeling really, really hurt today.

    Today Hugo Schwyzer wrote a column that was basically in favor of paternity fraud. He told the story about how he used to be a cad, and would have casual, unprotected sex with any warm body he could find.

    One day his fuck buddy “Jill” got pregnant. Jill had just met a man named “Ted”. Ted had LTR potential, but apparently Jill wanted one last fuck with Hugo before settling down. So now Jill is pregnant and she doesn’t know who’s the father.

    Jill and Hugo decide they aren’t going to tell Ted anything. Ted marries Jill, thinking that he got her pregnant. Hugo then says it was okay to do because Jill “needed” the baby to be Ted’s. Then he spouts out some ridiculous platitudes about how it doesn’t matter who’s sperm made the baby, it’s Ted’s baby now because Ted loves the baby.

    Hugo got a lot of flack for these comments, but he also got supporting comments from his feminist groupies. People who say we “can’t judge” Jill for tricking Ted, or that Ted really isn’t being hurt at all. It just makes me sick that someone can be in favor of paternity fraud.

    I’ve heard some people say that feminists are pushing for a utopia where they can fuck alpha males with impunity, and then force the beta males to take care of the kids. At the time, I thought it was too ridiculous to be true. Now I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      I’ve heard some people say that feminists are pushing for a utopia where they can fuck alpha males with impunity, and then force the beta males to take care of the kids. At the time, I thought it was too ridiculous to be true. Now I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

      Even I thought that was too ridiculous to be true. I’ve never believed feminists capable of outright cuckoldry as a strategy. This is one of the most disturbing things I’ve heard in a really, really long time.

  • Mike C

    That’s why I’m all ears when men describe what femininity is and why they value it. It’s clear they know it when they see it.
    .
    I’m really going to emphasize the nurturing and playful qualities. As I think about my relationship with my GF, and why I am committed to her instead of sampling the variety in the current SMP, I come back to those 2 things.
    .
    Here’s the thing. Women can and do get emotional support from their female friends. Men do not get this from their male friends. We do stuff together and bust each other’s balls. Very often, a grown man’s sole source of emotional support is the woman he is with. The better you can fill that need the more irreplaceable to him you are. Yes, there is a balance here, as I’m sure most if not all women do not want to play Mommy 24/7, but us guys do want to show our vulnerability as well.
    .
    Being playful just helps with the day to day seriousness of everyday life. My GF does some of the goofiest stuff to try and make me laugh, and even on a day where maybe I lost money trading, she can bring a smile to my face with some silly antics.
    .
    I’d really say trying to cultivate some femininity is really Game for women. It is what you can do to be more then just a set of visual physical attributes and a hole to stick a dick in.
    .
    I think it will vary from woman to woman how “natural” some of it feels and to what degree some qualities can be emulated or adapted. The hyper-masculine tough woman is the counterpart of the supplicating, deferential beta. Some will decide trying to make any changes are not worth it. That is a valid choice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Very often, a grown man’s sole source of emotional support is the woman he is with. The better you can fill that need the more irreplaceable to him you are. Yes, there is a balance here, as I’m sure most if not all women do not want to play Mommy 24/7, but us guys do want to show our vulnerability as well.

      Any emotionally healthy woman wants to share a man’s vulnerability. Being emotionally supportive does not equal mothering. Obviously, women want men to be strong, not emotionally needy, and readers here will recall how terribly I punished a young man for the latter. Men like to be needed, but women do too. We like to know that when our men come “home” they can let their guard down. Without that kind of emotional exchange in a relationship, sex is not going to be mind blowing for most women. We need the intimacy.

      I acknowledge that the caveat “emotionally healthy woman” is a big one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think it will vary from woman to woman how “natural” some of it feels and to what degree some qualities can be emulated or adapted. The hyper-masculine tough woman is the counterpart of the supplicating, deferential beta. Some will decide trying to make any changes are not worth it. That is a valid choice.

      Agreed. As always, it’s about what works for people. A woman who is happy with her life as is doesn’t need to go fixing problems that aren’t there. And even if she does “need” to work on some things, she has only herself to answer to. I would just say that people who make this choice don’t get to come on the internet and complain endlessly about the raw deal they’re getting.

  • anonymous

    Concerning paternity fraud, you thought feminist respect men as and let’s forget the word equals, but merely as humans? Boy do you have a lot of learning to do.

  • Mike C

    @ GudEnuf,

    I really don’t want to hijack this thread with OT commentary, but I do have to address the article you linked. One of the points made is so absurd, and that is that whose sperm it is doesn’t matter.
    .
    Ok, let’s go with that. If that is true, that biology is irrelevant, then it is also true that the egg doesn’t matter, and furthermore the actual biological identity of the baby doesn’t matter. We don’t even need to give the woman the baby she actually gave birth to. We could switch to the LIFO or FIFO method. The babies would be stocked in inventory in order of birth order, and as you check out of the hospital you get the next baby in inventory. No problems, right? Biology is irrelevant, only “love” matters. OK, how many women do you think would go along with this? I’m guessing somewhere around 0%.
    .
    The man who wrote that article is a despicable human being.

  • SayWhaat

    Wooo my comments made a post!

  • 108spirits

    Feminism vs Feminity, this reminds me of my mother and her Western friends, and I’d like to destroy that feminine = helplessness bullshit.

    Mum worked for the UN in a developing country, which is also her homeland. She and her local co-workers were very feminine in demeanor, appearance (all maintained long hair, wore dress – usually traditional – to work etc.) Yet they were tough as nails. Some of the things a poster called Jamie mentioned in the other blog, like gutting fish, chicken, lamb etc., or worse, dirty, hard labour work – they did those regularly with no complaint. That’s just a part of making meals for and supporting the family in that country back then. They were sharp in bargaining, very hard to fool, none of this such & such man sold me crap because I’m a naive feminine woman bullshit.

    Her other co-workers were Western women, mostly of Susan’s generation, all hardcore feminists. They were all large (literally – and they had no shame of being hugely fat working for the UN in mostly starving countries) & in charge, needed no man (all single or divorced) and loved to boss people around, especially the male staff. Yet they were very helpless. None could clean nor cook to save their lives, they all had maids. Couldn’t fix shit around the house. Throw them out of their comfort zone and they wouldn’t survive for a week. Every one of their staff hated them.

    Initially they were all up in my mum’s face trying to make her into an entitled princess just like them. “Why isn’t your husband doing / buying blah blah for you? Why are you putting up with him? Why are you cooking / cleaning at home?” Funny, cos she has a happy marriage and family and they don’t. A few years later, some of them shut up and started asking mum for dating & relationship advices. :D The ones that listened ended up married or in a relationship soon after.

    @ Susan

    The email you got from your reader who’s taking up dancing is interesting. I’m a dance instructor and women who struggle with following have that problem not so much because of physical skills, but because of their feminist-indoctrinated mentality. Some of the more self-aware ones have even admitted as much. They find it really hard to let go of *control* and let a man lead them.

    Now that doesn’t mean you should be a puppet who just leaves everything to the man/leader either. Following his lead while dancing and contributing to the dance at the same time is a feminine skill.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @108spirits
      Wow, that’s quite a story, thanks for sharing it. Your mom sounds like an amazing woman!

      Re dancing, when my husband and I first got together, I’d get silly sometimes and try to get him to dance by leading him. He would stand still, absolutely refusing to move a muscle, smiling but shaking his head no. Then I’d say, “OK, you lead” and we’d start dancing. Even though he is a greater beta, he does have some alpha moves. :)

  • jz

    circling back to the topic of femininity, …..wearing pretty longerie and underclothing is a quick fem touchstone, esp. true during the hours of work clothes.

  • GudEnuf

    Yes, actually I do think most feminists respect men as equals. But after today, it has become clear that there are more misandrist feminists than I thought. Hugo Schwyzer has a reputation for being a “moderate” and “open-minded” feminist. If he can endorse paternity fraud without being called out by his peers, then it’s safe to say most feminists have opinions relatively similar to his.

    I expected better of feminism. I thought femosphere was better behaved than the manosphere, and that feminism would rescue the men’s rights movement from its self-destructive hatred. I’m not burning my feminist card yet, but this incident makes me feel betrayed.

  • whiteboykrispy

    I was also thinking about this issue recently…

    A vast majority of the girls my age in my area do not act feminine. It’s not that they are all grrlpower or “girls rule boyz drool”, or even that I’ve seen any of the scorekeeping rick noticed; it’s quite literally as SW said, that they don’t know how.

    It’s so much so that I, and every other dude, have accepted it as the way it is. There is a baseline of “not very feminine” that most girls are at or above, and there’s no way around it it’s just the way it is, the way they were taught (or allowed to) act.

    What this also means is that a girl who is feminine shines with absolute radiance. They stick out like a diamond among gravel, and to interact with one of these rare specimens of my age is quite something.

    As I’ve said here before, I had a girl once who was so feminine (and great looking to boot) that I was willing to give up my lifestyle to be with her. (I messed it up, but that’s neither her nor there). Every time I hung out with her, I was continually amazed by her infatuating behavior. She was so sweet, so kind, so gentle, so… everything most girls aren’t these days.

    I’ve moved on, free from the curse of oneitis, but I still think about the great time we spent together every now and then, and come close to cursing my drunk ass who ruined it.

  • GudEnuf

    @Mike C

    I don’t think this is off-topic. This blog is about feminism and sexuality, and Hugo’s essay is an example of how deluded certain feminists are about sexuality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      I don’t think this is off-topic. This blog is about feminism and sexuality, and Hugo’s essay is an example of how deluded certain feminists are about sexuality.

      I hadn’t really planned on writing a post today, but I have to. It feels like a moral obligation to stand up and call out deceit. That’s basically the only moral judgment I make on this blog – deceit in any form. I am just so disgusted by this – and I notice Hugo has not given an inch in the debate.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Susan, thanks for the link love! I’m interested to see how this experiment works out, and am really glad you’re talking about it too.

    jz: the book I read was Entre Nous by Debra Ollivier? It’s an exploration of femininity in french woman, and is really just a cursory overview of how they live their lives. I didn’t see anything specifically related to liberal casual sex, other than the description of the French being, well, French. Did I miss something?

    Mike C: Loved hearing how femininity helps you out.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “But femininity depends on a sense of female inadequacy to perpetuate itself. ”

    I was actually thinking about this earlier today. Feminism confuses kindness for weakness, and thus can’t see women being cheerful or partnering with men as anything other than doormat behavior and “inadequacy.”

    This could be collective projection – women, particularly competent ones, view kindness and deference as unattractive in most men (only the most alpha men can be unalloyed chivalrists and stay in women’s good graces) so feminists seem to assume that men see them the same way.

  • rick

    Most men are getting tired of the insane score-keeping of personal power that is evidenced by the comments you have selected.

    There is an almost paranoid aspect to much of what these women say; they are completely obsessed with measuring and analyzing the power dynamics in relationships and are therefore losing their humanity in the noise of personal politics.

    Men do not tolerate such pettiness from other men, except where the workplace demands that we do so. Most men have experienced working for the occasional male boss who is ceaselessly testing and measuring his power over others.

    This brings a level of weariness and tedium to relationships that is not worth the investment.

    Susan – there is probably no turning back for this generation, except for an occasional person who sees the light.

    Too many women, as can be seen from the comments, have been indoctrinated into battle-of-the-sexes competition and score keeping. It is all they know and all they have ever known. They have practiced brittleness, practiced being offended at trifles, and practiced looking for any reason whatsoever to validate their ‘victim’ status.

    I once had a male friend who was constantly re-calculating dinner checks, constantly re-counting the change when he bought something, and constantly obsessing over every comment made to him. He was sooooo certain that he was going to be short-changed or insulted, that he was not worth hanging around with due to this psycho behavior.

    These women are paranoid beyond all tolerability. I don’t want to associate with people who spend all their time accusing and looking for reasons to be hurt and offended.

    That is what loser men do. Unfortunately, feminism has turned a lot of women into butthurt loser men, behaviorally speaking.

    Look at the harpy that is offended at greeting her man in a feminine tone of voice. What a loser. Who would want such a woman for anything other than sex?

    Anyone who views being soothing or nurturing to another person as an insulting burden should go join al queda, where everyone is a tough, macho a-hole.

    I’m sure she would issue an unfeminine rejoinder about me not being able to “handle” a strong woman.

    I assure you, dear, you are in no way a strong woman. You are confusing your hardened brittleness with strength.

    When you meet a truly strong woman, there is nothing to “handle”. Truly strong women are a pleasure to know.

    A woman talking about how “strong” and “independent” she is sounds JUST as ridiculous as a man going around telling women how handsome and attractive he is. They are only trying to convince themselves.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Epic comment from Rick at 11:19

      Unfortunately, feminism has turned a lot of women into butthurt loser men, behaviorally speaking.

      Interesting, both you and Mike C have made a similar observation. Unfortunately, speaking in terms of power, the feminists are butthurt winners, and that is particularly dangerous.

  • http://forgetfulmuse.blogspot.com/ Thag Jones

    Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that?

    Ha ha ha ha! Oh dear…

  • rick

    GudEnuf-

    Interesting thing about that article being the comment about how we should not “judge Jill.

    Judgment seems to be a peculiar female phobia. I never hear men saying how they hate “feeling judged”. Only women. This tells me that women use feelings to validate their moral foundation more often than men do.

    If feeling judged makes a woman feeeeeel bad, then she may be forced to conclude that she IS bad. However, if any critical opinion of her can be silenced, then the bad feelings do not come, and she is free to feel morally validated.

    Therefore, I point out the men that unwavering, righteous judgment of females is our ultimate tool. Be truthful, fair, and unapologetic when judging the actions of women. This, by the way, also explains feminist shaming language – if the woman can get you to feel bad about yourself, she rationalizes that she is the winner of whatever moral argument is at hand.

    In a way, feminist shaming language is not an attempt at distraction from the issue – in the mind of many women, she feels she is making an empirical argument, since for many women emotional certainty = empirical proof.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Badger: “This could be collective projection – women, particularly competent ones, view kindness and deference as unattractive in most men (only the most alpha men can be unalloyed chivalrists and stay in women’s good graces) so feminists seem to assume that men see them the same way.”

    In my case, femininity=weak was formed early in my childhood, long before I had formed thoughts about what I found attractive in men. It came from my father, as well as comments as a child such as “cry like a girl,” “throw like a girl”, pretty much anything weak was lame. It may be some women are projecting, but I think that Susan, SayWhaat and I have clearly stated these were ideas that were brought on early in our lives.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    amazing post

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    whiteboykrispy,

    “Every time I hung out with her, I was continually amazed by her infatuating behavior.”

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/the-alpha-shadow-liz-phairs-mesmerizing/

  • SayWhaat

    Did anyone catch these articles in the NYTimes?

    Is Sex Passé?

    Just as the watchword of my generation was freedom, that of my daughter’s generation seems to be control. Is this just the predictable swing of the pendulum or a new passion for order in an ever more chaotic world? A little of both. We idealized open marriage; our daughters are back to idealizing monogamy. We were unable to extinguish the lust for propriety.

    And the Motherlode response.

    Implied in her accusations, through the demeaning language she uses to describe involved motherhood, is that young women are turning their backs not just on sex but on feminism itself. Monogamy, to Ms. Jong, seems distasteful if not downright disgusting and certainly antifeminist. This is quite a leap: an expectation of faithfulness in marriage is now bad for feminism? Her characterization of younger women as “obsessed with motherhood” especially stings.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat
      Where would I be without my readers? I ventured into the wildnerness this past weekend, and missed the Sunday Times for the first time in years! Thanks for calling my attention to this – a;lsdkfja;lskfj;laskfjd I am going to work harder this week than I’d planned. It’s OK, tho, I’m going on vacay soon.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Judgment seems to be a peculiar female phobia. I never hear men saying how they hate “feeling judged”. Only women. This tells me that women use feelings to validate their moral foundation more often than men do.

    Wait this is new to you? You can find examples of women doing this since the dawn of times. I know that feminism covered with shaming language (is misogynist to say women are catty but is so true is not even funny. I had seen women as young as 6 started with the shaming of their little friends.
    Personal anecdote.
    Short conversation among a lesbian and straight girl (hottie)
    SG: Woud you give me your phone number?
    L: I though you had it?
    SG: I lost it and I don’t take calls from numbers I don’t know.
    L: Why not?
    SG: Might be one of my many ex-boyfriends.
    L: (Without even blinking) Maybe you should pick better boyfriends
    SG: ….
    Really I think the shaming most be so into genetic code that is not even about sexual preference at all. And I most say the straight men around didn’t even commented and one of them volunteered to take the calls himself to scare ex-boyfriends.

    This could be collective projection – women, particularly competent ones, view kindness and deference as unattractive in most men (only the most alpha men can be unalloyed chivalrists and stay in women’s good graces) so feminists seem to assume that men see them the same way.

    … I had been saying this for months now! Is not that Betaness is unattractive in itself is that everything Beta is demonized as weak and unattractive. If feminism was a bit honest it will call itself Masculinism.

    Therefore, I point out the men that unwavering, righteous judgment of females is our ultimate tool.

    Another thing I had been saying. If men took the feminist toys against them (the laws) and start placing restriction orders in any woman that hits on you, or call creep any fat one that dares to breathe in your pretense , they wouldn’t be so eager to call the cops on every guy they find creepy. But they know that the male lizard brain will see a female and go into “chance to get laid” mode and no dare to use their toys against then. So they will continue use them and abuse them just because they can and you won’t stop them…so yeah.

  • Matt C

    Susan, here’s what I don’t understand about feminism.

    What is so wrong about a man going to work all day to make money to support the family and the wife stays home to care for the kids? What is so wrong with this? It is how things have been for thousands of years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C

      What is so wrong about a man going to work all day to make money to support the family and the wife stays home to care for the kids? What is so wrong with this? It is how things have been for thousands of years.

      There’s nothing wrong with it if that’s what a couple decides they want to do. For many couples, it’s not economically feasible. But more to the point, many women have intellectual talents that are not exercised by caring for children. In the 15 years I was mostly a SAHM (I did a little consulting work on the side) I had to find ways to lead and be intellectually engaged. I got super involved at my kids’ schools, did fundraising, taught ESL to recent immigrants in Boston, acted in plays, wrote and performed in a two-woman show, designed and planted a garden, painted landscapes, designed and sewed a lot of stuff for my home. And still, at the ripe old age of 52, I started a blog.

      I loved caring for my kids, I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything, but I needed more than that in my life. Many women do.

  • Matt C

    You know what, I want to continue my point.

    I am 19, so I am pretty inexperienced in life, but I just find it sickening how being a housewife is so demonized. Seriously, what is so bad about it?

    I look around the internet. I actually see quite a few articles written by 35+ “career women” (women who chose careers over having a family), and many are depressed that their current life projection ends with them childless and alone. This is so saddening.

    Is this what feminism wanted? Men to lose out in the job market and for both men and women to end up childless and alone? If so, FUCK FEMINISM!

    Men and women used to work together to create a family and a household. To create a life together and it feels like such a beautiful thing has been ruined before I got to experience it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men and women used to work together to create a family and a household. To create a life together and it feels like such a beautiful thing has been ruined before I got to experience it.

      No, it is still possible, many people do it. You must come at this with an attitude of abundance rather than scarcity (that’s the part of Law of Attraction that is worth practicing). Many women do want this. It’s very difficult for women to work and have a family, and not everyone can do both. Sacrifices must be made. I don’t know a single high-powered career woman who is also a nurturing mother. At my 25th b-school reunion, quite a few of the women I knew had wanted to marry and have families had not done so. And most of us who did had made a conscious choice to step off the fast track, partnership track, whatever.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @GudEnuf

    I’m really sorry about this article disappointing you so much. I remember my firsts disappointment with feminism (and I most say it was not an easy fall I was never a radical feminists but finding out the hard truths was heartbreaking) and it was indeed bitter to find out how corrupt the movement had become. I can only tell you be strong, the worst it yet to happen. A few more articles like this and you will be ready to “get over” feminism. Nice idea in paper, terrible in practice *hugs*

  • Bob

    Re: Main topic – A lot of women could work to increase their femininity without even going against their feminist principles. Many feminine virtues are also just good-people traits.

    Don’t cuss (demonstrates a lack of self-control, that is, power over the self). Don’t shout (same). Don’t put people down, don’t shove when a light touch will do, don’t interrupt people. Don’t brag, whine, or spread rumors. Don’t blow someone off just because of an awkward first impression (you don’t have to date every beta who breathes on you, but it’s polite to give him your full attention for the duration of the conversation).

    Do keep up a clean appearance. Do empathize with a speaker rather than get offended – especially when what they say seems offensive at first blush (don’t knock it, this takes tremendous inner strength). Do walk slowly and gracefully, rather than stomping around (men should walk slower too, but there is a different way to do it for each gender that leaves an impact). Do freely express happiness, gratitude, or other positive emotions, and encourage them in others. Do offer your support and empathy to those who need it.

    Unless my sense of patriarchal oppression has been miscalibrated, not a single item on that list cedes even the slightest hint of power from a Strong Liberated Woman to any man (what she don’t but need no how anyhow). Even if one slipped through the cracks, the rest should be fine. Surprise, surprise, everything on that list will make you more pleasant to be around without making you appear weak. Some even demonstrate inner strength and self-control, which others always will (and always should) admire.

    Many of the ways femininity is superior to feminism require comparison to one’s relationship with men to fully appreciate, but I think it’s best to start with the self, given the comments quoted.

    Re: Engineering girls – I’ve known plenty of cute, attractive engineering girls. I’ve yet to meet a feminine one.

    Re: Judgment – A significant part of breaking through a girls anti-slut defense is making her believe you won’t judge her for it. The easiest way to slam a girl’s legs back together is to make her think you are negatively judging something she’s said, thought, or done. Given the choice between being honest and not getting laid, or lying and getting laid, a significant minority of guys (including most alphas) will choose option B. Women want honesty, they have to develop the inner strength to listen to a negative opinion. Where have I read about inner strength recently…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bob
      That is an awesome comment! I love the way you built such a strong case for femininity not precluding strength.

      Re: Engineering girls – I’ve known plenty of cute, attractive engineering girls. I’ve yet to meet a feminine one.

      I think it’s very tough on young women who have the aptitude for and interest in Engineering. They are the poster children of the feminists, breaking through the science and math glass ceiling. As a distinct minority in their major, they learn to hold their own weight intellectually (and get taken seriously) by not being too “girly.” They can be feminine, or develop femininity, but they are going up against even more cultural programming than most.

  • Matt C

    You know what, I ain’t done.

    “What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?”

    “When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.”

    “Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.”

    What in the fuck happened to working WITH a man in order to support a household?

    These are signs that women think they have to compete with men INSTEAD of working with them.

    Femininity is about working WITH men in order to raise happy children and live a happy long success life TOGETHER. It’s not about weakness. It’s about working with men, the way nature intended things to be.

    Man, I just need to shut off the computer.

    Thinking about feminism and big government makes me feel so scared and angry. This shit just ain’t healthy. Seriously, I just gotta say this. As a young man, I am so afraid and angry. Divorce rates are rising rapidly. Men are receding in the job market. The government is growing endlessly. The scary times are already here and it seems that things are gonna get a lot worse before they get better.

    I keep hearing about men who are losing their jobs or who can’t find jobs. Two of my cousins are affected by this and my uncle, all male. I have heard lots of stories about men having serious trouble finding jobs, but I have NEVER heard of women having these problems. I guess this is off topic though.

    It just feels like a big part of this problem is just that men are getting screwed over in the job market while women are breaking into it more and more.

  • Jack Amok

    Matt,

    The Silents and the Boomers screwed it up for all of us. Not the first time a bunch of self-absorbed mucks have left a mess behind for others to clean up.

    You can clean it up. We can fix it. It’s heatbreaking to think of all the beauty that’s been sacrificed, but it will come again if we do our duty.

    And if it helps to give you a little motivation when thinking about the Boomers, we’ll be the ones supervising their medication some day real soon now.

  • Dogsquat

    Bob said:

    “Do empathize with a speaker rather than get offended – especially when what they say seems offensive at first blush (don’t knock it, this takes tremendous inner strength).”

    This is a great point, Bob, and something I think many feminists misunderstand about feminine communication.

    One of the best bosses I’ve ever had was a woman. She exemplified the point you made, and it was a very powerful tool for her.

    Once I did something rash and irresponsible at my job. I sort of knew I was wrong, but wasn’t ready to admit it yet (I am sometimes prideful and pig-headed). A male boss would have busted my chops or raised his voice to get his point across. This technique would have been ineffective at the subconscious, primate level of my mind if my tiny female boss tried it. I simply didn’t fear her, or even respect her physically (I can run faster, carry more, lift more, and do more physical work than three of her.)

    Instead, she smiled sweetly and asked me a series of questions. The tone was a little like a concerned mother talking to a toddler. The questions started out fairly innocuous, but eventually led me to admit that I’d been a douchebag. Once she saw the look on my face as my wrongness dawned on me, she smiled sweetly, cocked her head to the side, blinked twice, patted my shoulder, and shoo-ed me off. The whole thing took about 2 minutes (except time seemed to stand still there at the end).

    I felt like an unloved, unflushable turd. It was one of the top three ass-chewings I’ve ever received – and she never once raised her voice, swore, postured aggressively, or got “bitchy”. Her frame control was just rock solid, and she communicated to me in a way that I’d hear – not the way she probably wanted to.

    I walked out of that office determined to never receive one of those “talking tos” again. It was exactly what she set out to do as my boss, and it was pretty powerful. I gained a lot of respect for her that day.

    Femininity is not weak compared to masculinity. It is just different. Rather than force and volume, it takes discipline and subtlety.

  • Dogsquat

    Jack Amok said:

    “And if it helps to give you a little motivation when thinking about the Boomers, we’ll be the ones supervising their medication some day real soon now.”

    ______________________________

    It’s the politicians that are actually going to be dictating the meds.

    This is a Bad Thing.

    See, Boomers as a group are terrified of Death. They expect everyone to bear any burden, pay any price to keep them alive. They won’t stand for any kind of rationing of health care as it exists in other countries. Since they’re about to get on the never-ending gravy train that is Medicare, they will vote out any politician that even looks like thinking about limiting access to the latest, non-proven, totally experimental treatment – provided it might help them a little bit (and it’s paid for by someone else).

    Wait six months for a new knee, like in Canada? Get denied a CABG solely on the basis of age, like in the UK? Wait – you’re not gonna give me the $50,000 chemo that might extend my life 6 months? Fuck that shit, Silent Bob!

    They’ll be reaching for their absentee ballot faster than Billy the Kid went for his Colt. It’ll be the Decade of Me writ large – just with Other People’s Money this time. The politicians will happily trade votes for meds – it’s just another version of bread and circuses.

    The house of cards isn’t going to topple over in some third world shithole – it’s gonna crumble in the ICUs right in your home town.

    We are well and truly fucked, and unless you can convince this particular generation of Americans to forgo state of the art medicine – and remember which generation we’re talking about, here – there ain’t no way to fix it.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    It’s really disheartening to hear this idea that femininity equals weakness. As I’ve said in the other thread, it basically says that men are superior and women are inferior.

    These power games come from women viewing every man as a potential enemy, as members of the Patriarchy that now exists only in feminists’ heads, at least in the West. Of course, the feminist establishment taught them this.

    As for how I came to appreciate feminine girls, let me tell you a story. Unlike most male readers here, I’ve never had any serious issues with women. Despite being hetero, I didn’t pursue romance in high school because I didn’t want to deal with all the craziness. In college, girls generally responded well to me, though I didn’t pursue relationships because I didn’t feel like adding another thing on top of schoolwork. The girls in both high school and college had a sort of unrefined yet attractive quality to them, like freshly mined gold. A few tomboys were there, and T-shirts abounded, but that was because the environment was usually casual. Still, there was something there.

    I only stumbled onto Roissy’s site because of Whiskey (of Whiskey’s Place), and all the horror stories I read there of harsh women doing terrible things to overly supplicating beta men who just wanted to love them made me more determined to seek out a well-behaved, feminine woman — and helped me realize that getting a good woman wasn’t a crapshoot. I still didn’t think ill of the women I met in college, but I understood them a little better after reading Roissy.

    Those are my thoughts, and I think that my positive experiences with women let me approach Game, and women, without bitterness. Now I don’t have to learn the hard way. :)

  • Clarence

    GudEnuf:
    Thank you for being honest when you see something you feel is wrong, even if it is done by someone supposedly on your “side”.

    It’s literally years of reading things like that that turned me from a young male feminist to a self-described “equalist” who more often leans MRA.

  • Clarence

    rick@11:19

    Very good comment, and yes, that was my reaction on reading those comments particularly the “nurturing” one. Heck, I think a downright Female Domme would be easier to live with than these chicks because at least the female domme would know what she wanted!

    Who wants to come home to a war?

    And Susan? Your personal experience was heartbreaking. Obviously the assertiveness training was misunderstood.

  • Clarence

    I don’t hate tomboys. I don’t hate feminine women and girls. I think my idea woman would act mostly feminine but have a bit of a tomoboyish or at least technical streak in her.

    It does make me sad how many women think being feminine equates to less respect and across the board weakness. Maybe in the higher levels of corporate and governmental power..but otherwise?

  • Stingray

    I am having some random thought on this, so please bare with me as I make an attempt to organize them. My two cents:

    Crisiseradynamo said “It’s really disheartening to hear this idea that femininity equals weakness. As I’ve said in the other thread, it basically says that men are superior and women are inferior.”

    Please understand that this is entirely from my point of view. I have no idea if most women felt this way as children or only a few of us. I cannot generalize the following at all.

    I was a tomboy as a child. A genuine one. My mother tried to get me to wear dresses and play with dolls and I HATED them. This was not learned as I started this very young. I was born when feminism was just starting to get hold of things (mid ’70s). It had been around long enough that people were starting to except it and it was becoming more mainstream. Anyway, I remember hearing all the time, (as someone said above) don’t cry like a girl, don’t throw like a girl, etc. As a young child this would infuriate me. I was always very athletic and quite strong for a girl and for a few years I was just as good at sports and “boy games” as the boys (I never hung around girls, I didn’t understand them). When I heard these things it would make me want to prove myself and I would act like a boy because I would not be seen as weak. I would get highly rewarded for this. I was often picked first for sports during recess and everyone, including the boys, were highly impressed by what I could do. It made me work even harder at these things.

    Now, I was not stupid. I always understood that boys were stronger than girls and when the day came that I was not stronger and faster I was a bit disappointed but I was ok with it. I still got the impressed looks and whatnot. I have no idea why, but I have always understood men better than women. I still have the dread hamster and all that goes with it, and other than being unable to walk and carry myself with femininity, I try to always be kind, smile all the time, and am a very nurturing person. I stay at home with my kids and since I was a child this is all I ever wanted to do. It is what my mother did. I try to dress up, not “play” so rough, and not hold myself like a man but I struggle greatly with these things as I have a visceral hatred of being seen as weak, even though I, logically, know that being feminine does not equate weakness it is hard to shake that feeling of when I was a child and heard men say to their boys (don’t . . . like a girl.)

    BTW, I don’t blame the men of any age saying “don’t . . . like a girl.” Boys should not behave like a girl and this was a good way for a father to teach his son to behave like a boy and grow into a man. It makes perfect sense and I have said it to my own son. (I will not raise a feminized boy) It is just what I remember from my childhood.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray
      Thanks for sharing that story from your childhood. It reminds me of something from mine. When I was a kid I was very, very fast. There were no organized girls’ sports in school, but it became clear at recess that I could outrun anyone. As late as the 6th grade this was true – that spring we had races all the time, and I won them all, against all the boys in my grade. This gave me very high status, and all of the boys wanted to be my “boyfriend” (puppy love version). The school year ends, and when we come back in the Fall I’m chopped liver. Literally, I was invisible. Suddenly, the ditziest girl in the class, the one who wouldn’t even consider running, got all the attention! That was truly a rude awakening, and it took me years to recalibrate.

  • VI

    What this also means is that a girl who is feminine shines with absolute radiance. They stick out like a diamond among gravel, and to interact with one of these rare specimens of my age is quite something.

    I’ve had a lot of experience with girls. The ones who stick out the most in my memories, the ones who I fell in love with, they’re the most feminine ones, not necessarily the most physically attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The ones who stick out the most in my memories, the ones who I fell in love with, they’re the most feminine ones, not necessarily the most physically attractive.

      This is really, really important for women to hear. Femininity is not correlated with beauty. Beautiful feminine women will get the most attention, it’s true, but any woman can be more attractive by being feminine. Tomorrow I’m putting up a guest post that directly describes an experience with this. It’s a coincidence, but good timing.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    jz wrote:

    Entre Nous advocates liberal casual sex; read it critically.

    Its French. Duh.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    GudEnuf wrote:

    I’ve heard some people say that feminists are pushing for a utopia where they can fuck alpha males with impunity, and then force the beta males to take care of the kids. At the time, I thought it was too ridiculous to be true. Now I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

    Welcome to the real world. It sucks doesn’t it?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Stingray

    Thanks for sharing. I know that some women are tomboys, and by and large, I don’t have a problem with this. It’s just the feminist indoctrination that says that women shouldn’t be girly (and men shouldn’t be manly) that gets to me. It’s as if feminists despise female beauty and want to stomp it out as part of their project to disenfranchise men.

    Earlier, someone mentioned a feminine woman working in the UN and holding her own in harsh conditions, while her über-feminist colleagues needed (and mistreated) maids just to get by. I was heartened to read it.

    I’m all right with tomboys. I just don’t consider feminine women lesser or unserious, and thus worthy of disrespect. Being feminine doesn’t mean acting like some superficial, catty princess.

  • http://whatmenthinkofwomen.blogspot.com/ Christian J,

    Now I can understand why (b)American women are persona non gratia around the world(/b). It would appear that there are way too many places elsewhere where men can find a reasonable female and America ain’t that place..

  • tito

    “What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?”

    ha! you are, it is biological. you do care, that’s why you make the point of pseudo-rebelling against them. continue the fight against biology my dear, lol.

    please do not give birth though, ever.

  • jerome

    Feminism, on the other hand, is dedicated to abolishing the myth of female inadequacy.

    It takes an unusual lack of insight to write that statement in the context of an argument decrying the inadequacy of women who have not reformed themselves to the dictates of Feminism. Feminism has a long history of attacking women for their preferences, specifically concerning motherhood, marriage, and female sexuality.

    and then she writes..

    Will femininity continue to beat down the feminist challenge? It’s been remarkably tenacious to date.”

    Well which is it? Is femininity simply an artificial adaptation to the patriarchal hegemon, or an expression of female agency? Because it’s ridiculous to claim that it’s the former but behaves like the latter.

  • Clarence

    Hmm.
    Better be careful. Femininity is only “real” to the extent that women have to suppress natural urges toward the behaviors that we consider feminine. Feminism does this. On the other hand, most femininity is culturally constructed, and women should be free to choose which bits and pieces feel natural to them. Just like “game” femininity MUST be calibrated to the woman’s personality, or it will feel like an artiface and straitjacket. It may be useful for some women who aren’t naturally very feminine to learn to put on some “feminine airs” when in social situations, but other than that I don’t think it should be expected of them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Clarence

      Femininity is only “real” to the extent that women have to suppress natural urges toward the behaviors that we consider feminine. Feminism does this. On the other hand, most femininity is culturally constructed, and women should be free to choose which bits and pieces feel natural to them.

      I’m not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that feminism is useful in allowing natural urges to be indulged, which decreases femininity? If so, it’s an interesting point, and one I agree with. However, I would argue those are base urges, and that civilization requires the suppression of unproductive, destructive indulgence. Perhaps that is what you mean by the cultural construction of femininity?

      I believe there are many natural behaviors and attitudes that are biologically and uniquely female. Feminism suppresses those feelings in women, which winds up producing shame, inadequacy, even depression. The most obvious example is women denying their own chemical bonding mechanisms, e.g. oxytocin, to have casual sex, and then feeling betrayed and bewildered by how terrible they feel when the male has no interest in Round 2, much less a regular gig.

  • Stingray

    “I’m all right with tomboys. I just don’t consider feminine women lesser or unserious, and thus worthy of disrespect. Being feminine doesn’t mean acting like some superficial, catty princess.”

    I think this is exactly the point I was trying to make with my very long winded post. (Didn’t have the time to organize my thoughts like I usually try to do this morning!)
    One of the things I hate the most about feminism is that I am the epitome of what they consider wrong with women. I am a submissive, SAHM and I homeschool our children. I LOVE to take care of my husband. Cooking is one of my favorite things to do for him as it makes him feel taken care of. I smile, comfort, nurture, etc. and it’s wonderful. They would see me as weak, but I am anything but. I can hold my own in almost any situation that most feminist would run screaming from.

    Anyway, I am still not completely making my point but I gotta run. I will try to post more if I have the opportunity later today.

  • David

    Susan,

    I’m 62. My mother, both grandmothers, and all my aunts were distinct, individual personalities, and they were feminine–in their own ways–all their lives.

    Your readers who’ve been taught to believe that feminine means weak, passive, and even stupid are experiencing the world through the media, rather than directly. They should watch some black-and-white movies to get some perspective.

  • Clarence

    Susan Walsh:
    I think we are in agreement. What I was saying was that feminism teaches females to suppress certain traits they may have that are considered “feminine”.
    However, I would say that as for the larger “Feminine Construct”- women have to pick and choose which aspects of that fit their personalities.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Stingray

    Glad to hear it, Stingray. Keep up the good work.

    @ The one who said feminine women stuck in his memories

    I can relate. At college, I met a big girl, very rotund and pudgy. Ordinarily, I would not be attracted to big girls, but this one was neither sloppy nor rude. She was very clean and well-kept, and she had such a polite and sweet demeanor that I was actually drawn to her.

    Similarly, I knew another girl who had meat on her bones (not nearly as big as the aforementioned one, and this one has slimmed down recently) who also had a feminine vibe. I found myself rather attracted to her, too.

    While it is true that slim feminine girls will always get the most attention, femininity goes a long way towards making a girl with some extra meat on her bones rather attractive. Much like a beta male who uses Game, you won’t have all of the opposite sex beating down your door, but you will do much better than you did before.

    Femininity erases fifteen pounds.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Femininity erases fifteen pounds.

      WOW! The Femininity Diet!

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Now ladies, don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying “let yourself go and balloon out.” I’m just saying that having a few extra pounds, a little extra meat on your bones, will not destroy your attractiveness.

  • Polemicist

    It’s time to bring forth more fascist poetry in this fight against liberalism in all its forms.

  • meowww888

    As much as I love what I’m studying at university right now, one of the main reasons I’m acquiring an education is that it acts as an insurance policy for single life I guess.. Who knows I won’t be married at 30 or 35 and could only rely on me to support myself? I would love to do the whole being a stay at home mum thing when I’m married, but how many guys who are around my age (23) are ready to settle down? I think dating older guys is out of the question as I think they are more likely to have baggage (or kids!) or have a history of fooling around.
    I’m in a new serious relationship right now, and so far it seems like he isn’t a commitment-phobe (fingers crossed!).
    It is also sadly not easy to have kids and at the same time lead a comfortable life on 1 income these days. Anyone have any good suggestions on how to do the work-kids balance? I know I am years away from having kids but currently am running out of ideas on how to do it. I’m thinking it’s one or the other for me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyone have any good suggestions on how to do the work-kids balance? I know I am years away from having kids but currently am running out of ideas on how to do it. I’m thinking it’s one or the other for me.

      If I could offer one single piece of advice it would be to choose a field where it is possible to work part-time. My women friends who are MDs do all sorts of interesting things part-time. Not as interesting as neurosurgery perhaps, but they work as physicians and spend time with their families as well. I also know some women JDs who work part-time – either having stepped off the partnership track, or having made partner, scale way back for half pay. Teachers/academics and nurses all have good control over their schedules. In fact, I know one young woman who has decided (at 22) that becoming an NP is going to be a more family-friendly way to go than medical school.

      In my experience, it’s much harder to do this in business, as many companies feel that it’s inefficient (it probably is). Working for oneself is tough because clients/customers expect service when it’s needed, not on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ The Private Man

    Susan, please do a post on the strength that is femininity.

    Oh, wait… maybe that’s my job.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Private Man

      Susan, please do a post on the strength that is femininity.

      Oh, wait… maybe that’s my job.

      Ha, can’t wait to read it.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Mike C,

    “What is so wrong about a man going to work all day to make money to support the family and the wife stays home to care for the kids? What is so wrong with this? It is how things have been for thousands of years.”

    This is another trad-con fallacy, I’ve never read any historical analysis that found this to be true. No serious society has put female raw labor on the shelf without them producing anything through cottage industries or service work.

    Until the postwar era, only the wealthy elite could have the luxury of the wife not producing anything (and in many cases the kids were raised by nannies and au pairs while the wife served as an attache to the man’s career or political duties). Back before we had washing machines and mass-produced clothes, women were doing a LOT more than “staying home to care for the kids.”

    In agro societies women were canning, pickling, salting food, gathering fruit products, mending things, etc. In industrial societies women often worked in the factories themselves (look up the history of Lowell, MA). In urban societies they clean others’ houses and take care of other people’s children.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Badger

    Well said. Before there were appliances to make things easier, women worked hard inside the home, and it was far more than just raising kids.

    Sorry for the double post; I hit Submit by accident.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “As much as I love what I’m studying at university right now, one of the main reasons I’m acquiring an education is that it acts as an insurance policy for single life I guess.. Who knows I won’t be married at 30 or 35 and could only rely on me to support myself?”

    What a luxury that must be. I’m a dude, and I’m expected to work until I die.

  • Stingray

    “What a luxury that must be. I’m a dude, and I’m expected to work until I die.”

    I think so many feminist completely miss this point. They want it “all”. The career, the man, the family, you know, just like men have it all. Please. I can’t believe they honestly think that there are all these millions of men in the world completely happy with their lot in life with this amazing career that they “get” to do everyday and then come home, have a whiskey, and put their feet up. Most married men go to jobs they hate, and then come home to help raise the kids and keep the house (even if it is man stuff fixing it up.) There is no “having it all”. The job sucks, but it keeps the family going. He is doing what needs to be done for as long as it needs to be done.

    And Badger, I did the same thing. I went to college in case I didn’t marry so I could support myself, hoping the whole time to marry and stay home. I got very lucky and am doing that. It IS a complete luxury. One that I fight hard to try not to take advantage of. But, holy crap, I have never done anything harder in my life.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Any who thinks feminine and “strong” don’t fit together has never grown up or been around farm wives.

    My mom, her mother, and her sisters are some of the strongest women I know, and they are disputably feminine.

    But then, I think when one has to work and get dirty a lot of times, they appreciate being able to clean up and put on a nice clothes and make up. They could cook what you wanted for you, but they also cooked what you needed to eat and made sure you cleaned your plate before letting you have any desert. In some ways the house mirrored Washington DC. Mom was the legislative branch – handing out the laws & edicts. Dad was the executive branch – meting out the punishments.

    Awhile back my mom actually started a program at our church where older ladies met with younger ladies and… give them advice and stuff (I guess, I obviously was never invited to any of these). I never thought that there might be more desire for programs like that beyond religious communities.

  • Mike C

    Badger,
    .
    Your response should be directed towards Matt C who made the statement, not me

  • Anonymous

    Badger/Crisis-Era—women’s home life prior to modern appliances..

    Ida Tarbell’s biography of Owen Young (who became a GE CEO) contains a word-portrait of Monday–“wash day”–in that era: “he drew from his memory a vivid picture of its miseries: the milk coming into the house from the barn; the skimming to be done; the pans and buckets to be washed; the churn waiting attention; the wash boiler on the stove while the wash tub and its back-breaking device, the washboard, stood by; the kitchen full of steam; hungry men at the door anxious to get at the day’s work and one pale, tired, and discouraged woman in the midst of this confusion.”

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    The last comment (the Owen Young excerpt) was me

  • mgambale

    Great post, Susan.

    It should come as no surprise to women that men’s appraisal of them is framed by the way they present themselves. Ladies, ask yourselves what qualities you’re advertising to men that they can’t find in a good male friend. Those are the things that a man will judge to determine what role he wants you to play in his life. For many women these days, their only answer to the question I posed is sex. They’re replaceable in every respect by another man except when it comes to screwing, looking good on his arm, and having babies. They’re replaceable in every respect that lasts.

    Femininity is a way to advertise qualities that, whether they’re natural as Susan suggests or cultivated, will lead men to see you in a different light than the one they cast on other men and disposable pleasures. Being seen in a different light is a good thing. Simone de Beauvoir was wrong when she suggested that men’s characterization of women as the Other is inherently diminutive. Our differences amplify our perspective, so partnerships between us can be more than the sum of their parts. Women who endeavor to be indistinguishable from men in as many respects as possible are social saboteurs, not progressives, because they are needlessly undermining a source of diversity that has proven beneficial for centuries. Their mistake is to conflate uniformity with equality.

    I think other posters have described what it means to be feminine pretty well. If marriage is among your goals you should embrace yourself as the Other. You should endeavor to be complementary to members of the opposite sex rather than interchangeable with them. Indeed, don’t women expect the same from men?

    Here’s a great example of femininity in action:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vThuwa5RZU

    Ingrid Bergman’s character dominates this scene, but in a way that is nonetheless extremely attractive. Notice that she’s neither supplicating nor childlike. But she isn’t behaving rudely or in way that’s overtly sexual. She smiles and makes eye contact. She’s playful. Even when Rick is a little rude, she doesn’t throw a fit or turn to stone.

  • mgambale
  • flavia

    Feminism is the opposite of what it portrays itself to be. I always found it humorous that to exalt women, feminists proposed we basically became men. All things associated with femininity were “bad” and all things associated with masculinity were good (as an aside, how convenient the feminazis focused on aggression and promiscuity and not other male attributes such as honor and duty).

    Only in this dystopian nightmare could all things naturally female be so debased by those that claim to have the best interests of women in mind.

  • Stingray

    “Their mistake is to conflate uniformity with equality.”

    Brilliant.

  • flavia

    One of the most ignored aspects of femininity is poise.

    Go to any food court and you can see lumpy ballons hunched over, literally shoving food into their mouths. That is no way to enjoy a meal.

    I once was eating something and caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror. That did enough to cure me. Eating in small bites, slowly, is not just a way to keep slim, but also to not look like a wilder-beast.

  • detinennui32

    Femininity.

    A feminine woman will show you who and what she is, when the time is right and not before.

    She doesn’t show you everything all at once. She knows what to reveal, when, and how much. She certainly doesn’t show the world everything. She holds it in reserve for the people in her life.

    She gives you her entire heart, but won’t hesitate to take it all back if you abuse her.

    She is kind, pleasant, and cares deeply for the people in her life.

    Her strength is her willingness to do what needs to be done in a kind and pleasant manner.

    Her strength is her discretion and politeness even when faced with injury or when there’s nothing in it for her.

    Her strength is her absolute resolve not to put up with shit from losers or put out for cads.

    Feminists.

    Feminists try to be men in women’s bodies, and then wonder why men conclude they’re not wanted or needed.

    Feminists work soul-sucking jobs like men, develop personalities like men, and then wonder why men don’t want to be around them.

    Feminists give their bodies to the highest bidders, who take what they want and leave, and then they wonder “where have all the good men gone?”

    Feminists compete with their men, and then wonder why their pyrrhic victories leave them so empty.

    Feminists do what needs to be done and don’t care who gets hurt.

    Feminists bottle up their emotions until they can’t contain themselves anymore. Then they wonder why the emotions erupt in the form of fitness tests, pity ploys, crying jags, yelling, and temper tantrums.

    Feminists put up with shit from losers until their hypergamous natures cause them to put out for cads. Then the strong, independent, “I am woman, hear me roar” feminist wails “I just couldn’t help myself.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @detinennui32
      +googleplex
      That gave me goosebumps.

      Then the strong, independent, “I am woman, hear me roar” feminist wails “I just couldn’t help myself.”

      And writes a spinster lit bestseller.

      And the feminists, for all their posturing, don’t even realize they are the ones who created the losers and the cads they complain about.

      Of course not, they don’t allow that any aspect of the Women’s Movement has affected men negatively.

  • detinennui32

    And the feminists, for all their posturing, don’t even realize they are the ones who created the losers and the cads they complain about.

  • detinennui32

    Susan: Your 23 year old commenter said:

    “So I think I’ve got a better grasp on how to look feminine, and maybe of feminine grace, but I am really clueless about how to “talk” like a woman or be subtle, and I’m about as emotionally perceptive as a rock. I work in the male-dominated field of engineering and the women I work with are, well, practically men. You wouldn’t believe the way my boss (f) sneers when I wear a (below the knee, gray, pencil) skirt to work!

    What I’m getting at is that I don’t really have any feminine role models. I know that term sounds silly (what am I twelve?) but I was hoping you might have some suggestions: books or movies or places to meet feminine women?”

    detinennui32 says: For an example of a modern day feminine woman, one can look to former First Lady Laura Bush.

    Yeah yeah yeah. All right, I know. Leave the politics aside. She’s graceful and dignified. She carries herself and presents herself well. She’s educated.

    As for speaking or talking like a woman or being subtle:

    1. Don’t ever use profanity in public or on a date.

    2. Don’t complain. Ladies, this is THE biggest problem men have with today’s women. I don’t want to hear bitching about your job, or your boss, or your cramps, or your dumbass ex-boyfriend, or the broken handle on your Gucci handbag. I DON’T CARE ONE WHIT ABOUT YOUR DAMN HANDBAG. I want to hear about you — your wants, your needs, your desires, your family, what you like, what you don’t like, your life experiences.

    3. “When it’s time to work, we works. When it’s time to play, we plays.” IOW, leave work at work. On a date, it’s time to play. No 20 questions, no solving problems, no banging your date over the head with things. I am your date/boyfriend. I am not your boss, your coworker, your client, your subordinate or your secretary.

    4. Exercise to get rid of the work stress so you can leave it at work.

    5. Try pitching your voice a little higher — or at least not pitching it lower.

    6. Try pitching your voice softer, as in not so loud.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Lovely!

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    My lovely was for @detinennui32. ;)

  • detinennui32

    “When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.”

    with that kind of an attitude, who would be so intrepid as to sire that baby? And oh yes, I am sure this grown ass woman will expect the sire to stick around, pay the bills and fix the snowblower.

    “Feminine tone of voice? What the fuck is that? “Yes I’d love to make you dinner while rubbing your feet after your long day at work. Oh my poor, poor man!” Um…no.”

    My reply? “Yes I’d love to work my ass off at a job I hate paying your credit card bills while making sure the oil in your car is changed, after you’ve had a long day watching Oprah and eating bon bons, then come home and listen to your out of shape ass complain about what a hard day you’ve had because the automatic icemaker is on the fritz and you had to take ice cube trays to the faucet and fill them BY HAND, and you had to wait 2 hours for the water to freeze. Oh my poor poor woman!” Um… no.

    My reply?

    I’m reminded of a comment I left at Aunt Haley’s a while ago:

    “These women would rather spend $1000 on a Louis Vuitton handbag than give their men a heartfelt “I love you” at the end of a hard day.”

  • detinennui32

    Ladies and haters:

    You all need to understand something here. Feminism has brainwashed you that a feminine woman
    1. bats her eyelashes at men
    2. flirts all the time
    3. is the quintessential “damsel in distress”
    4. is completely helpless even in the face of inconsequential events or minor crises
    5. is ditzy, intellectually incurious and just plain stupid
    6. can’t hold down even the simplest of jobs
    7. is a barefoot, pregnant baby factory
    8. is a Stepford wife who walks around her house in an apron, an AquaNet hairdo and a 1950’s era print dress, artificial smile perpetually plastered on her face, baking cookies and making food, while muttering vaguely about her lack of orgasms and the “problem that has no name”

    These claims are false. They are based on caricatures created by feminist friendly media minions designed to make the mass of women believe that they lead deprived, boring, unfulfilling lives. And we’ve bought into it hook, line and sinker.

  • Stingray

    Susan said “Suddenly, the ditziest girl in the class, the one who wouldn’t even consider running, got all the attention! That was truly a rude awakening, and it took me years to recalibrate.”

    I remember this happening to me as well. In fact it still happens to some extent. I’ll see some man fawning over some ditzy woman who basically seems like a bag of air. I will ask my husband what he could possible see in her and he will stop staring for a moment and say something like “Stingray, she’s got tits and an amazing ass.” To which I remember and think, “well, duh.”

  • jamie

    What is so wrong about a man going to work all day to make money to support the family and the wife stays home to care for the kids? What is so wrong with this? It is how things have been for thousands of years.

    There really isn’t anything wrong with this. I don’t know about you, but I was a latchkey kid, so I considered a stay-at-home-parent unnecessary until I went home with a friend after school whose mom was a housewife. IT WAS AMAZING…her house was beautiful, she made peanut butter brownies, She helped us with our homework while she prepared dinner, they kept chickens in the backyard and I got to help collect eggs…it was like I never knew what I was missing until then. My mom came around and picked me up at 6 and we went home with a carton of fresh eggs. We probably ate them for dinner since it’s a quick meal and we never had time for breakfast anyway.

    From what I understand, 1-income households are no longer economically feasible for middle-class families, though sometimes I wonder. One of my friends has 3 kids between her and her husband and she only works part time, presumably for spending money because it’s a crap job. She refuses to work after 3pm or on weekends, because day-care or a babysitter for 3 kids would be so prohibitively expensive that she is better off not working at all.

    People think that housewives have no value, but that’s not true. Childcare and take-out are some of society’s biggest money-sucks. Besides, have you ever had to take time off work to wait for the plumber or the cable guy? How useful would it be to have someone at home holding down the fort?

    That being said, I don’t know many guys who can afford a housewife, so maybe it’s too late.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    You all need to understand something here. Feminism has brainwashed you that a feminine woman

    1. bats her eyelashes at men

    2. flirts all the time

    3. is the quintessential “damsel in distress”

    4. is completely helpless even in the face of inconsequential events or minor crises

    5. is ditzy, intellectually incurious and just plain stupid

    Feminism didn’t brainwash me into thinking that. Observing boys/men responding positively to those qualities did that for me. Isn’t that also what Susan and Stingray are saying?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Observing boys/men responding positively to those qualities did that for me. Isn’t that also what Susan and Stingray are saying?

      Good point. There is sort of extreme femininity that 7th grade boys are very susceptible to. There I was in my sensible clothes, running fast and getting excellent grades. There was Paula King in her frilly dress, simpering and giggling and needing a strong boy to carry her books.

      It’s like Violet vs. Mary in It’s a Wonderful Life. George never notices Mary until he’s much older. Violet is the girl that all the boys want.

  • Stingray

    Jamie,

    One income houses can still easily be done, but you have to live outside any city and find a house within your means. It may be a small house that is overflowing, but it will be kept and those living within, happy. It just means that the family has to give up a lot of the luxuries that two incomes have. With my degree, I could easily bring $50,000 a year more to the family. Not a lot of money in and of itself, but we could have a much bigger house, nicer cars, etc. It’s not worth it. That’s just stuff to us and we don’t need it. The other things you mentioned are more important and are what (I hope) will be remembered in 20 years.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Thanks for sharing that story from your childhood. It reminds me of something from mine. When I was a kid I was very, very fast. There were no organized girls’ sports in school, but it became clear at recess that I could outrun anyone. As late as the 6th grade this was true – that spring we had races all the time, and I won them all, against all the boys in my grade.

    Reminds me of what my mom would talk about. She grew up in a house with 3 other sisters, their only brother was the youngest of the bunch. So her and her sisters had to help out with all the farm chores – including milking cows by hand. For a long time there, she could beat nearly any boy in her class in arm wrestling.

    Then she’d point out that when she got older, she realized boys don’t like it when you beat them at arm wrestling so she stopped doing it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Then she’d point out that when she got older, she realized boys don’t like it when you beat them at arm wrestling so she stopped doing it.

      Haha, yes, this is what took me years to figure out. That and what boys did like.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Crocs ‘n’ Socks Game:

    Went out this morning to grab coffee. Saw a girl (~9/10) at Starbucks and asked if she liked my new look, I called it Crocs n Socks.

    Girl: Classy
    Me: Has a ring to it too, doesn’t it? Like a Dr. Seuss book.
    Girl: Laughs
    Me: What, you’re not a fan of classic literature?
    Girl: Blah blah…

    Scored her number.

    Game is so fun it’s like a drug.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    It’s like Violet vs. Mary in It’s a Wonderful Life. George never notices Mary until he’s much older. Violet is the girl that all the boys want.

    Isn’t that not unlike what “all” the girls want at that age as well? Your most common point on this blog?

    I think Susan has stumbled upon the great truth: “We’re all not so different after all.”

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Jesus
    You sound like a natural, I don’t know what took you so long to let it out.

    Crocs and socks? Ugh. If you number closed with that look, it’s proof positive of Game’s effectiveness.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Nate

    “We’re all not so different after all.”

    We’re all knuckleheads at 13, if that’s what you mean.

  • Clarence

    Susan:
    You forgot about Lynette the “easy girl”, what with her low-cut blouse and short shorts and propensity to let certain undergarments slip out from time to time.
    Such girls are often very popular with teenage boys as well :P

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Susan, I was just poorly programmed. And yea, I know. I wasn’t going out to pick anyone up, but I’ve been forcing myself to make conversation whenever I run across a girl.

  • chris

    Femininity could easily be described as possessing those personality characteristics that are sexually dimorphic and hence typical of the female sex.

    Why Can’t a Man Be More Like a Woman? Sex Differences in Big Five Personality Traits Across 55 Cultures

    Previous research suggested that sex differences in personality traits are larger in prosperous, healthy, and egalitarian cultures in which women have more opportunities equal with those of men. In this article, the authors report cross-cultural findings in which this unintuitive result was replicated across samples from 55 nations (N = 17,637). On responses to the Big Five Inventory, women reported higher levels of neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, and conscientiousness than did men across most nations. These findings converge with previous studies in which different Big Five measures and more limited samples of nations were used. Overall, higher levels of human development—including long and healthy life, equal access to knowledge and education, and economic wealth—were the main nation-level predictors of larger sex differences in personality. Changes in men’s personality traits appeared to be the primary cause of sex difference variation across cultures. It is proposed that heightened levels of sexual dimorphism result from personality traits of men and women being less constrained and more able to naturally diverge in developed nations. In less fortunate social and economic conditions, innate personality differences between men and women may be attenuated.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022351408600266

    So in other words, in terms of the big 5, be more neurotic (emotional, sensitive and expressive rather than serious and emotionless), be more extraverted (seek out relationships with people/be sociable rather than be a loner and inwardly-focused), be more agreeable (sugar and spice and everything nice not bitchy and mean and aggressive) and be more conscientious (reliable, clean not slovenly or lazy.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris
      Great comment, I think relating femaleness to the big 5 makes total sense. I don’t think that’s exactly the same thing as femininity, but your description fits.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    We’re all knuckleheads at 13, if that’s what you mean.

    Exactly. And some of us grow out of it. A depressing number do not.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    We’re all knuckleheads at 13, if that’s what you mean.

    Exactly. And some of us grow out of it. A depressing number do not.

    Yes, the point I’m trying to make is that the problems between the sexes can’t always blamed on brainwashing by political agenda. Sometimes it’s just because we’re different.

  • detinennui32

    @ Bb:
    “Feminism didn’t brainwash me into thinking that. Observing boys/men responding positively to those qualities did that for me. Isn’t that also what Susan and Stingray are saying?”

    Come on, Bb. Of course men respond to feminine qualities, but that’s not what these are. Work with me here. These are wildly exaggerated caricatures. They are comic or melodramatic portrayals of women. I’ve never met a woman who literally batted her eyelashes at me or shrieked “save me!” while tied to railroad tracks or faced with a cockroach.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Come on, Bb. Of course men respond to feminine qualities, but that’s not what these are. Work with me here. These are wildly exaggerated caricatures.

    Have you not? I’ll grant you #3 & #4, but the rest of the list? Seen it work successfully in many an interaction from a woman to a man—but maybe it’s a regional thing. I live in the south.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    One note to the ladies on femininity: if you don’t know how to wear high heels, practice before you go out in public. Nothing can kill your poised frame like stumbling around in heels. Be patient developing femininity if you’ve been supressing it or didn’t come made that way, it will take some time.

  • Jamie

    @Stingray

    Responding to that long story you wrote:

    It’s little wonder we equate femininity with weakness when idioms like, “throw like a girl,” are so ingrained in our vernacular. Boys/men use “like a girl” analogies to put each other down all the time, so it would be natural to assume that girls are inferior and it’s best to work on overcoming your handicaps, that is, learn to throw like a boy.

    Until Susan opened discussion on the subject of femininity, I considered my female-ness to be a massive inconvenience, hardly worth celebrating. It’s going to take a long time to reverse that thinking.

    I still don’t understand why men will bemoan all the obnoxious traits of females, even to the point of calling them inferior (guys like Roissy, not the average HUS commenter) but they still crave and desire beautiful women. It’s like the sight of a pretty girl with a nice shape and all the feminine attributes makes them instantly forget all the things they hate about women. It doesn’t make any sense. I can be attracted to a man and still realize that he probably lets his dirty socks pile up on the floor and thinks that wearing a black button down with a silk-screened dragon on the back is appropriate formal wear.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com Renee

    Matt C,

    What is so wrong about a man going to work all day to make money to support the family and the wife stays home to care for the kids? What is so wrong with this? It is how things have been for thousands of years.

    Susan- There’s nothing wrong with it if that’s what a couple decides they want to do. For many couples, it’s not economically feasible. But more to the point, many women have intellectual talents that are not exercised by caring for children. In the 15 years I was mostly a SAHM (I did a little consulting work on the side) I had to find ways to lead and be intellectually engaged.

    Pretty much what Susan said. I’ll also add that one of the things I’ve heard mothers complain about is being jealous of their husbands for being able to leave home for some hours each day, have breaks, and interact with other adults.
    ——————

    Bit of a personal thought about feminism. For all of it’s flaws, the one thing I give it credit for is bringing to light issues women face and their opinions, viewpoints, autonomy (I know this will be debated by some but just stick with me here)…giving women a voice. I’m sure GudEnuf can elaborate on this. But yeah, there was a time when I thought that I could be a feminist, but even then, from surfing the net and eventually visiting boards like the Spearhead, not to mention being a Christian, that never came to fruition.

  • Matt C

    Hmm, I am changing my ideas about a housewife after reading these:

    This is another trad-con fallacy, I’ve never read any historical analysis that found this to be true. No serious society has put female raw labor on the shelf without them producing anything through cottage industries or service work.

    Until the postwar era, only the wealthy elite could have the luxury of the wife not producing anything (and in many cases the kids were raised by nannies and au pairs while the wife served as an attache to the man’s career or political duties). Back before we had washing machines and mass-produced clothes, women were doing a LOT more than “staying home to care for the kids.”

    In agro societies women were canning, pickling, salting food, gathering fruit products, mending things, etc. In industrial societies women often worked in the factories themselves (look up the history of Lowell, MA). In urban societies they clean others’ houses and take care of other people’s children.

    and this:

    There’s nothing wrong with it if that’s what a couple decides they want to do. For many couples, it’s not economically feasible. But more to the point, many women have intellectual talents that are not exercised by caring for children. In the 15 years I was mostly a SAHM (I did a little consulting work on the side) I had to find ways to lead and be intellectually engaged. I got super involved at my kids’ schools, did fundraising, taught ESL to recent immigrants in Boston, acted in plays, wrote and performed in a two-woman show, designed and planted a garden, painted landscapes, designed and sewed a lot of stuff for my home. And still, at the ripe old age of 52, I started a blog.

    I loved caring for my kids, I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything, but I needed more than that in my life. Many women do.

    I am curious now. Susan, what do you think the ideal situation for a man and woman working together to build a family be?

    I am young, so my ideas about this are very incomplete and as Mike C pointed out, false. I am just looking for perspective.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C

      I am curious now. Susan, what do you think the ideal situation for a man and woman working together to build a family be?

      The most important thing is to find a woman who is compatible with you and shares your values. That will give you the foundation you need to negotiate the family issues. In your case, you’ll want a woman who is amenable to the idea of spending time at home with the kids. So a woman who longs to be a CEO isn’t going to work, and you probably wouldn’t be attracted to her anyway. Once you navigate the big questions, you need to be sensitive to what her needs might be. She will undoubtedly need and want outlets for interacting with other adults and exercising her brain. Believe me, providing opportunities for this will be well worth it. If a woman feels bored or stifled at home, the sex is going to be bad. There were many times when my husband watched the kids in the evening or pitched in extra so that I could pursue my interests. By the way, I’m talking about intellectual passions here – not giving a woman free rein to “go out with the girls” drinking and making mischief.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com Renee

    Actually I think fruition is the wrong word to use….it just never happened lol.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Even I thought that was too ridiculous to be true. I’ve never believed feminists capable of outright cuckoldry as a strategy. This is one of the most disturbing things I’ve heard in a really, really long time.

    Had you watched Glee? Quinn cock-holded sweet Finn and everyone was in it, Mercedes (sassy, black girl) find out who the father is and without blinking says: Well Quinn wants Finn to be the father…I was so disgusted that I stopped watching soon after that. And this is a PG-13 show. They did reveal it to Finn and he broke up with Quinn I read but it was Rachel because she had a crush on him, not because there is anything morality wrong about having poor Finn emotionally devastated over thinking he was going to be a teen father and what to do with his daughter…Really Susan feminism next goals are: Normalizing cheating and Cock-holding, STD’s and late term abortions. Read a bit of the Jezebel/Feministing if you have the stomach…they just want to have free reign of doing whatever they want to and having society and men to accept that their feelings are the law.

    I agree! I wrote a post about that:
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/04/24/relationshipstrategies/how-to-be-a-femme-fatale-and-grab-the-world-by-the-balls/
    That particular post celebrates a sort of sassy femininity, which I find rather interesting. When a woman is feminine, sassy is sexy. When she’s masculine or androgynous, it’s just obnoxious.

    This reminds me of a plot point in “To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar” about imitating classic stars (in this case Anne Baxter as Nefertiti) to be more feminine to win a man’s heart. Of course this was done by drag queens if this was done by a woman to a young woman the feminists would had flipped their shit over hetero-normative and all that. Although I personally agree that Anne Baxter was amazing as Nefertiti, feminine and strong. Also Yul Bryner as Ramses…”hot!, hot!, hot!” :)

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    Meryl Streep. Not only is that answer to all questions, but I consider her to be feminine.

    Love her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deidre
      Meryl Streep is an awesome example, I love her too.

  • Jack Amok

    Stingray,

    I think “tomboys” can be very attractive. They secret, I think, is that if a tomboy also has a feminine side she isn’t ashamed to show, it really gets highlighted by her, shall we say, tomboy antics. It shows not only a depth of character, but an ability to be what’s needed at the moment. A demure, soft-spoken woman who melts into my arms when I kiss her is great, but I’d also like to know my wife can handle a routine crisis around the house if I happen to be neck-deep in some time-critical deal at work. Or off in the next villiage killing some troublemakers, whatever man-thing needs my attention.

    The competitive thing is probably what is most confusing. Some people will say that any competitiveness is highly unfeminine, and a total turn-off to a man. But that’s not quite right. A man generally doesn’t mind if he wife has a competitive streak, as long as she controls it (BTW, a lot of feminity is about self-control – and maybe that’s ultimately what the real attraction is – when you consider the havoc a woman can wreak on a man if she can’t control her hypergamous urges, it’s a major selling point for any woman to advertise that her hamster isn’t the one running the show inside her head). Anyway, back to competitiveness. I don’t mind it at all when my wife is competitive with me in games or minor, non-essential issues. It’s fun and invigorating (and the bets we make are usually even more fun than the games, if you get my drift…). But it would be highly annoying if she felt the need to be competitive in everything. A man’s world is full of deadly serious competition – for jobs, resources, opportunities, things that matter in terms of providing. The last thing a guy really wants is to come home to deadly serious competition within his own house. A game is fine, but being challenged on all manner of things by his wife is really intolerable. It means he has zero respite from the challenges of life, no chance to recharge his batteries and rest up for the next battle.

    A man who comes home to what Susan described for her poor father is in a horrible situation. (BTW, what her mother was demonstrating was not assertiveness but hostility. I think it’s a mark of the true feminist of either gender that they don’t know the difference).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jack Amok

      A man who comes home to what Susan described for her poor father is in a horrible situation. (BTW, what her mother was demonstrating was not assertiveness but hostility. I think it’s a mark of the true feminist of either gender that they don’t know the difference).

      Fortunately, the feminist programming was rather short-lived, but we all suffered while it lasted. I really feel for the men who had the rug pulled out from under them as their wives began burning their bras and undergoing major personality changes. That hostility is all too present today on every single feminist blog, and in every Women’s Studies department, and every Women’s Center on every campus. There are a few voices of reason in the feminist community who are delightfully assertive without being hostile, but they are the rare exceptions.

  • Stingray

    Jack Amok,

    I agree with everything you said. I have always enjoyed being feminine to the extent that I know how. I’ve always liked wearing makeup and dressing up on occasion. The antics are always enjoyed by my husband as well. My main problem is that I know my husband would really like me to dress better and be more subtle (?). I can be a bit blunt when I am not careful (I have improved greatly in this area). I am a jeans and t-shirt person (It is what is most practical for me). I know he would love skirts and nicer shirts and dresses from time to time. He doesn’t mention it often at all. I give him many of the other feminine qualities that have been described (smiling, nurture, etc.) so he doesn’t complain because he loves the things I am good at. I guess I would just like to be able to give him these other things as well. I just don’t pull them off well around the house. I am too uncomfortable and it shows. That ruins the whole demure thing.

  • GudEnuf

    Update: Hugo has “nothing but contempt” for men who don’t want to be cuckolded.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf
      I don’t know what I’m going to do if you change teams now. It turns my world upside down. Re Hugo, he is trying to turn the attention to MRAs, acting as if only a misogynist with ridiculous demands could find fault with his story. There were plenty of feminists at Jezebel who judged him, and many men at GMP who don’t sound the least bit like MRAs. I’ve noticed that none of the major feminist blogs have touched this story. They know it’s explosive. I’ll be curious to see if any offer an editorial – every one of them will condemn him if they’re intellectually honest.

      It’s telling that the atavistic fear of cuckolding still runs so strong in the men’s rights activists. And given that so many of them are associated with the “father’s rights” movement, it’s telling as well that their definition of “father” is so fragile, so contingent, so limited, and so utterly narcissistic.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “Nothing can kill your poised frame like stumbling around in heels.”

    Ah, those shoes. I am unable to navigate in them. They are my achilles’ heels. Ba bump!

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Some examples of strong feminine women from the cinema:

    Elizabeth Taylor in Giant. Especially in the scene where she visits Jet Rink’s hovel of a home. He was so rough, and she was kind and polite to him, treated him just like anyone else. I thought she aged beautifully in the entire movie.

    Audrey Hepburn in Sabrina. When she realizes she’s been played for a dupe by Linus Larrabee, she simply processes it, takes it in, and leaves silently with her dignity intact. Heartbreaking.

    I also have a real soft spot for Maureen O’Hara. She had a temper, could stand on her own, but was all woman. I especially liked her in The Parent Trap. A light Disney movie, but she was wonderful in it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also have a real soft spot for Maureen O’Hara. She had a temper, could stand on her own, but was all woman.

      Have you seen her in The Quiet Man? That is some sassy femininity allright. She and John Wayne have some of the most palpable sexual tension I’ve ever seen in a film. And he tames she shrew in her. Very enjoyable.

  • tito

    “Fortunately, the feminist programming was rather short-lived, but we all suffered while it lasted. I really feel for the men who had the rug pulled out from under them as their wives began burning their bras and undergoing major personality changes.”

    wow! did that really happen to such an extent? i wasn’t around then and thought that it was mostly figurative. sheeesh.

    and what do you mean “fortunately”? is it not still wrecking our society?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @tito

      wow! did that really happen to such an extent? i wasn’t around then and thought that it was mostly figurative. sheeesh.

      and what do you mean “fortunately”? is it not still wrecking our society?

      Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that it was short-lived in my own family. My mother went on a feminist rampage for a while, and was just impossible. As part of this phase, she went to a career counselor, and waited eagerly to be told what brilliant career she might pursue. The answer came back: Police work. This was hilarious because my mother was not one to get her hands dirty if she could help it. We teased her mercilessly for years about her “women’s lib” moment.

      The disturbing thing, though, was that these “assertiveness seminars” were no doubt making families everywhere miserable as housewives started blaming the patriarchy, most readily found in the form of their own husbands.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Hugo, he is trying to turn the attention to MRAs, acting as if only a misogynist with ridiculous demands could find fault with his story.

    I mean… on the one hand I kind of get his message. It doesn’t take blood to be a good father (and on my top 10 fictional dads list, I even gave a special shout out to Darkwing Duck – and adoptive father) but…

    There were plenty of feminists at Jezebel who judged him, and many men at GMP who don’t sound the least bit like MRAs. I’ve noticed that none of the major feminist blogs have touched this story. They know it’s explosive. I’ll be curious to see if any offer an editorial – every one of them will condemn him if they’re intellectually honest.

    Why? Because feminists have so strongly tied themselves to the philosophy of consent. And that’s the difference here. With adoption or extended family (etc etc), at least the male in question is consenting to raising another child not his own. With this incident brought up, that’s the big deal. “Ted” did not consent to raise the kid.

    Anyone here head of the “rape by fraud” movement? To quote cracked (with link):

    It’s called Rape by Fraud, and you may have heard of a recent case in Israel that made international headlines where a man was recently convicted of rape after lying about his religion (that is, claiming to be a Jew) to convince a woman to sleep with him. He got 18 months.

    What is more remarkable is how many states don’t have rape by fraud laws at all (there have been calls to change that for years). The objection seems to be that once you can convict a guy or girl of lying to get sex, there may not exist enough bricks to build that many prisons.

    Read more: 6 Romantic Movie Gestures That Can Get You Prison Time | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_18756_6-romantic-movie-gestures-that-can-get-you-prison-time.html#ixzz1S1enDqoX

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Quinn cock-holded sweet Finn”

    Hold on here, cock-holding is a completely different thing!

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue, on “assertiveness training”: holy cow, that is not assertive, that is aggressive or abusive. Assertive is being able to calmly get what you want without escalating into a fight. Insulting and attacking is not assertive.

    Stingray: wonderfully said. There’s a big difference between being naturally more comfortable being a tomboy, versus actively suppressing your natural femininity. You’re one of the good ones.

    Clarence: Well said. The more I think about it, the more I think this: the best things about (for men) true inner Game and (women) femininity is embracing what you think you had to suppress to make other people happy. With that frame, all Game and all femininity is genuine.

    Matt C: don’t give up. If beta me can do it, you can, but you have to have strong boundaries and morals. Go to the dark side and have fun if you must, but beware you might be stuck there. I don’t think the rules have significantly changed since my college time. I still see good guys getting married to this very day, it’s all about the crowd you choose to run with.

    but how many guys who are around my age (23) are ready to settle down? I think dating older guys is out of the question as I think they are more likely to have baggage (or kids!) or have a history of fooling around. I’m in a new serious relationship right now, and so far it seems like he isn’t a commitment-phobe (fingers crossed!). It is also sadly not easy to have kids and at the same time lead a comfortable life on 1 income these days. Anyone have any good suggestions on how to do the work-kids balance? I know I am years away from having kids but currently am running out of ideas on how to do it. I’m thinking it’s one or the other for me.

    Meow, I married at 25. Greater beta guys will definitely be interested. But most women find us boring, so, you’ll have to decide whether you can tolerate us. As for single-income life with kids, it’s very simple. I’ve been doing the single-income thing with 3 kids for 10 years now. Reduce your consumption; always treat the second income as extra savings, and never cash-flow. Simple is not easy, though. Most people can’t do it.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    One issue with the SAHM thing is that experience and research shows that women as a whole have a remarkable capability to be unhappy in any domestic arrangement, and then to blame their choices on someone else (i.e. the proximal male). I concur with Athol, and Susan, that women generally need something else going on to keep their minds excited . Whether that is volunteer work in the community or actual remunerative labor is a point I won’t overcoach.

    I have two other concerns with the SAHM life choice.

    1. I don’t really see why a mother needs to be home full-time after the kids are in single-digit grade school. As Susan says, the ideal setup is a job that can go part-time or can deal with gaps in the career. There’s a very large gap between a long-term SAHM and a power couple having latchkey kids.

    2. With all the instances of parents, especially mothers, being “in love” with their children, long-term SAHM is setting up a likely scenario where mommy goes through massive empty-nest withdrawal, and having detached from the hubby long ago in favor of the kids, cues up “I don’t love my husband anymore/I need to find myself/etc etc.” Hell I wrote a post on this – the kid was clearly beyond the helpless toddler years, and yet this woman had emotionally abandoned her husband to get emotional support from a captive child (Freud would have gone nuts).

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/03/26/marriage-is-part-of-parenting/

    Finally, I’ve read that parents, moms and dads, spend more time with their kids than parents did in the 50’s! And kids are fatter and more F’d up than ever. Maybe kids need less attention. Have them go out and play stickball in the afternoons until the sun goes down while you and their dad have a good tryst, then have a dinner where everyone is relaxed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Have them go out and play stickball in the afternoons until the sun goes down while you and their dad have a good tryst, then have a dinner where everyone is relaxed.

      One of the things I regret for my kids is that there was no playing in the neighborhood after school. Most kids had working moms, so were in after-school programs. And parents don’t feel safe about letting their kids out of their sight, so arranged playdates are the norm. There’s no spontaneity.

      As for SAHM, I agree with you – I would have been very willing to work part-time for several years. As it is, I worked very hard as a volunteer, arranging my schedule to be home for them after school. This is why I urge women to consider fields that are more amenable to job sharing or part-time work. There were times when I was tempted to go be a barista at Starbucks – just for something different. I’ve always had a fantasy about doing that…

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “That hostility is all too present today on every single feminist blog, and in every Women’s Studies department, and every Women’s Center on every campus. There are a few voices of reason in the feminist community who are delightfully assertive without being hostile, but they are the rare exceptions.”

    As I have said, modern educated feminism is dedicated to the premise “don’t take any shit from a man.” It presumes a prisoner’s dilemma in every human interaction and promotes relational aggression as a strategic response.

    I don’t even deal with the hostility any more. If a woman exhibits it I drop her from my friendship enterprise, and if a woman’s friend exhibits it and the woman doesn’t stand up to it or repudiate it I do the same (i.e. I won’t have a relationship with a woman whose best friend is a bitch-feminism adherent because sooner or later it will be her or me and I’m not interested in fighting that battle, nor in telling her who to be friends with.)

  • detinennui32

    Feminism’s “don’t take any shit from a man” takes it way, way too far.

    Like Badger, were I dating now, I wouldn’t tolerate feminist hostility for one minute from anyone — not a GF, not a female friend. There is too much combat involved. It refuses any sort of compromise whatsoever with men.

    A masculine man doesn’t put up with hostility from feminists. By the same token, a feminine woman wouldn’t put up with shit from losers or cads. That’s not the same thing as saying she is not up for the normal give and take in relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      By the same token, a feminine woman wouldn’t put up with shit from losers or cads.

      Hear, hear!

  • Stingray

    OffTheCuff,

    Thank you for the nice compliment.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com Renee

    Bob,

    Don’t cuss (demonstrates a lack of self-control, that is, power over the self).

    That’s interesting. Are you saying that cussing is a “masculine” trait, or am I understanding you wrong here? I would think that the above would apply to everyone.

  • Stingray

    With all the instances of parents, especially mothers, being “in love” with their children, long-term SAHM is setting up a likely scenario where mommy goes through massive empty-nest withdrawal, and having detached from the hubby long ago in favor of the kids, cues up “I don’t love my husband anymore/I need to find myself/etc etc.”

    My husband was telling me just the other day about a conversation he had with a colleague regarding this very thing. He, very adeptly, described the solution to this as follows (bear with me here, the hand holding thing might seem a bit corny, but stop and really think about it for a minute):

    A man and woman come together and marry. When they are holding both of their hands together they form a circle (this is the new family). The problem many couples have is that when the children are born, they allow the children to join the circle and expand it. Now, when the children leave, the circle is broken as the husband and wife are no longer holding hands. It can be very difficult to attempt to reform it. However, what a couple should do is, never allow the children to join in the circle. They should be placed in the middle of it. The husband and wife never lose each other this way and the children are safe and well cared for.

  • Wian

    Wow!

    If you sniff my butt, you’ll know that I’m around 38, Male, getting regular sex and I have a reasonable healthy diet thought I could use more sleep, and that I come from the North…

    I stumbled onto this site looking for something else – what a delight.

    I really like the juicy contributions everyone has made in the comments! – I’m not familiar with what I think must be some community acronyms – I got sahm, but MRA still eludes me, and a couple of others – I’ll check urban dictionary at some point, I’m sure.

    I just wanted to add some of my own experiences for the benefit of those who enjoy the company of men and would like some further encouragement. – it’s all been said before, really; I got here a little late.

    On Nurture…. I have a mother. She’s awesome. I don’t go to her for feminine nurture. I enjoy an adult relationship with her and at this point we are – and my Grandfather as well – sort of growing older together. I’m reminded of a pod of whales but we don’t live together, or even in the same city.

    It’s not the same as the nurture I get from my Lover… without her nurture I would never be fully present with her (My Lover, not my Mother). Her nurture makes me accessible as the person I am and gives me the strength to go back out into the world that is often whittling at my personal resources or some form of my vital force. It means that I get extra reserves of energy and I don’t even bat an eye about doing little things to make her life easier, sweeter, – unclogging bathtubs and the “fixit” stuff to something as simple as hearing her, when she speaks and being present – I really don’t have that kind of energy for most people.

    Her nurture, and the way she shows her femininity bring out my masculinity – just kinda being more in charge and assuming some little decisions – and that wouldn’t happen if the trust hadn’t been built up. She never gave to much; always just enough for me to be curious, and want more – and I STRESS this part- I was rewarded for doing more. It gave her a chance to see what I do with her energy and her nurture. I mean, really, if I wasn’t rewarded consistently and appropriately I would just be gambling on hope! – and that would be silly without evidence of potential.

    You don’t need a WHR of .7 – though it should be noted that it’s a fairly simple ( I did not say “easy”) method of displaying physical femininity if you can at least get your waist to hip ration below 1. Simple as in it ‘s not complicated rocket science.

    “If someone doesn’t already act that way, it’s probably not in their nature.”

    That doesn’t make cultivating new behaviours a bad idea. For example: children are self centred twats. Left to their own devices they would probably never choose to develop the self discipline needed to overcome shitty habits born of ignorance in favour of new ones that will deliver a better life. Luckily, life usually imposes some kind of scenario that hopefully makes them more self aware, and aware of the community they’ve been feeding off of their whole life.

    Learning any new skill takes effort and will feel unnatural – dance lessons, I’m sure will feel awkward at first for many many people. After a little practice, Dancing feels very natural.

    Actually, many of the decisions we are standing on as adults are ones we made when we were hurt as 5 year olds, or young teenagers. I think it’s best we revisit some of those and review their current usefulness- I mean, would you trust a 7 year old to make the best decision for you now, when they haven’t been keeping up with your life so far?

    high heels? not essential for me – I love practical and “sensible” clothing on a gal – office chicks have the hottest clothes! – provided they fit properly and are appropriate for a body type.

    “What if I’m not interested in living my life for men, why the fuck should I care about these ‘rules’ for being feminine?”

    This is wrong on so many levels, I don’t know where to start.

    Well, I don’t live my life for women, but I certainly have a place for them in my life, and where it matters. If you think only women have this kind of value, If you can’t see the value men have, then you’re probably incapable of recognizing a man so, it’s best you keep your expectations low.

    “When I have a baby I will nurture that baby. A grown ass man can go to his mother for nurturing if that’s what he needs.”

    Again, “selfish cow.” – but maybe all you want is… the company of shallow men? and that’s a choice. but…Somebody isn’t getting very good foot rubs…and probably third rate sex as well. Quick recap: “not mother nurture, feminine nurture”… try not to misplace your anger, if this is you. – and consider what a man WOULD want to come to you for at all that he can’t get on his own or fraternally? This person probably also believes intimacy (with a man or men) is a farce. There’s a love that only a man other then your father can give… except in some of the States down south I think…

    Discover what feminine nurture is, and you can probably keep the best of men in your life till they die, if you like. – as lovers, friends, mentors….or an occasional bit of useful muscle.

    And Men… if she’s not delivering anything but “hope”… don’t “just leave” but, tell her what you need – she may not even know she has something to give besides sex. – Judgement call, of course.

    Goodnight all. It’s late, I’m not editing this anymore.

    Cold feminazism gives men no rmotivation, reason, nor any room to “improve”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wlan
      Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment! You fit right in here, do come back and see us again :)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Hold on here, cock-holding is a completely different thing!

    Heh sorry bad typo. :)

    Finally, I’ve read that parents, moms and dads, spend more time with their kids than parents did in the 50′s! And kids are fatter and more F’d up than ever. Maybe kids need less attention. Have them go out and play stickball in the afternoons until the sun goes down while you and their dad have a good tryst, then have a dinner where everyone is relaxed.

    You know I really struggle with the “alone time” concept. I had time with my parents when I managed to get something interesting to tell or do with them not out of virtue of me being a child. It might sound cruel but in the real world if you are a boring mean person no one is going to set aside alone time just because. Learning to earn people’s affection I think is an useful skill.

    As for SAHM, I agree with you – I would have been very willing to work part-time for several years. As it is, I worked very hard as a volunteer, arranging my schedule to be home for them after school. This is why I urge women to consider fields that are more amenable to job sharing or part-time work. There were times when I was tempted to go be a barista at Starbucks – just for something different. I’ve always had a fantasy about doing that…

    Actually the job I got is part-time for that same reason. I’m in nesting mode and I know I have the tendency to be a workaholic, so I rather take a low investment job now, to raise the children. But I will start a more competitive career as soon as they start going to school. My mother got two degrees like this :)

    However, what a couple should do is, never allow the children to join in the circle.

    In one occasion my mother was in the wrong about something that I was right and my father knew and I asked him why he didn’t picked my side and he told me “Well she is my wife you are going to leave some day and make your own family, she is my family for the rest of our lives” I didn’t understood back them, but now I’m glad of that philosophy and they have 34 years and counting so it must work.

  • detinennui32

    Shooooot. When my wife’s around, I’m always up for cock-holding. Never, never cuckolding.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Shooooot. When my wife’s around, I’m always up for cock-holding. Never, never cuckolding.

    Oh come on I already told it was a very unfortunate typo…:( :)

  • Lucy

    @Matt C

    I suggest you read MMSL’s posts on stay-at-home parents. In a nutshell, the home does not NEED a full time employee like it once did. With that in mind, what is the point of having a wife at home? I could see that being understandable with young children, but in the grand scheme there really isn’t a need for someone to man the house at all times anymore. (Unless you life on a farm or something? I’m assuming that you don’t.)

    @Wian

    I’m not a selfish cow, but thanks for that. I’m not interested in treating men like infants is what I was getting at. I’ve seen many SAHM’s, that are clearly bored with their lives, and have started treating their husbands as children (i.e. something to complain about with other women even though they love them oh-so-dearly and would actually never leave). They don’t even see their partners as people anymore, merely infants and one more annoyance in their day. I am not interested in treating my husband as an infant and so I think we may need to use a different word instead of ‘nurture’. Nurture is, to me at least, inherently motherly and, as I said before, I will not mother my husband. I nurture my kids, I ______ my husband. Hmm… don’t know what word would work there, it’s the same concept of nurturing but it’s intent is definitely NOT the same as what I do with kids. See what I’m saying?

    I stand by women not living their lives for men. Women search after all these skills to make themselves more appealing at their own expense, I really just can’t condone that. A little girl telling me that boys never like her and that she’ll never get married because she’s fat (i.e. not feminine) is just not okay. Similarly, women of all ages worrying about how to balance everything, when to have kids, etc. while men simply just don’t even think about that stuff inherently from an early age like we are trained to do is laughable.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    I bet these same women who are so against feminine swag, are the same women who suck when it comes to relating & mating with men

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Lucy

    That’s the thing. A bunch of girls are told by the culture that they “don’t need a man — they’re all pigs anyway!” and are taught to hate men, but they nonetheless want sexual relationships with men. Thus, they bring this combative, hostile feminist attitude to the relationship, turning off the man or causing him to insult the woman. Men don’t like being cursed for liking pretty women who dont treat them as enemies.

    Also, why do you think the fat girl was crying about how she couldn’t get married? It’s because she wants relationships with men (I don’t know how this girl is, so I can’t say anything about her personality.) Romance and relationships are not evil; they just require you to be concerned with someone other than yourself.

    It’s all right for you to not need a man. Just don’t expect any to show up in your bed. (I know you’re married, but I’m aiming this at women in general.) In high school and college, I myself have gone without female companionship in bed, simply because I didn’t want any headaches. However, I know that I have to bring a different attitude if I want to get with a woman, since it’s not all about me anymore.

    Relationships are not acts of bigotry.

  • Maya

    Interesting post!

    I’ve always been very feminine by nature – not only I look feminine (weak, pale skin, childish facial expression), I’m also very feminine in my head – attracted to flowers, baby animals, everything pink and glittery. I even have a high-pitched voice, I walk slowly, I try to be polite to everyone, etc. It’s not that I try to be like that, I just am.

    I’ve always been told by a female member of my family that this is not good, that I shouldn’t behave like that, that I’m weak and annoying and that a woman should be strong.

    I was sexually molested a lot when I was a young teenager and I came to conclusion that it is better to destroy my femininity. ( I didn’t decide to keep my femininity and become more assertive instead, because I had such upbringing that being extremely polite and submissive was even more important – it’s easier to control a child like that) I hated myself, but I didn’t know why. I had many problems with self-harming. I thought that even guys like assertive, especially sexually assertive, women much more. (Teenage guys really do talk like that). Even though I wasn’t really sure whether I want a guy like that. All my friends were having “fun” (casual sex), it was only me dreaming about love and family. I was sure that there’s something wrong with me.

    It’s strange that I’ve always been a feminist, actually. I liked to hate men for their sexuality, because of my bad experience with them in the past. But one feminist, “liberated” thing I couldn’t do was casual sex. I felt the safest when hanging out with lesbians, actually! Only recently I came to realization that I’m OK the way I am and that I don’t want to pretend anymore. It’s sad that only my ticking biological clock reminded me that maybe our culture is all wrong … I found Citizen Renegade and your blog a month ago and I was so happy that there are people who feel the way I do. It really helped me so much, finding my femininity again, it’s so much more natural and I feel at home now. I changed my mindset from feminist/liberal/confused to romantic/conservative in a week :)

    My English is not the best, but I hope you understand what I’m saying, more or less. Really great blog, btw. I like it, because it’s not religious, yet it’s still very conservative – I had problems relating to religious morals in the past, because where I live, we’re all atheists, liberal and “progressive-thinking”, so I didn’t want to be old-fashioned, strange, ridiculous etc. like religious people are viewed where I live.

  • namae nanka

    “Boys/men use “like a girl” analogies to put each other down all the time, so it would be natural to assume that girls are inferior and it’s best to work on overcoming your handicaps, that is, learn to throw like a boy.”

    It’s an insult for a boy, and not for a girl. A girl throws like a girl, but if you are a boy, and you throw like a girl, you suck.
    The boy is being shamed, not girls. Secondly, no one thinks of girls as inferior for being like that, because that’s what they got. And therefore a girl who can do better than a boy, or even competes with them can get accolades but not the other way round.

    So typical of women to take up offense either way.

    Moreover, the barb is about being like a girl. “You look like a girl” “You talk like a girl”, even “You write like a girl”. Boys and men instinctively want to differentiate themselves from girls and women, and it isn’t necessarily about being better than them. Just different.

    “I still don’t understand why men will bemoan all the obnoxious traits of females, even to the point of calling them inferior ”

    because they don’t have brains. Consider, “You talk like a girl” do you find higher pitch obnoxious? A woman who raises her voice is likely to come across as shrill, a loud man comes across as forceful. But if he had the pitch of a woman, he will be laughed out.
    Men see women as different from themselves, women can use it to their advantage, but feminists see it as men’s discrimination.

    “but they still crave and desire beautiful women. ”

    because you don’t desire inferior men, they shouldn’t do the same?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Maya

    Welcome aboard, Maya. Please enjoy your stay.

  • Eleri

    (First-time commenter!)

    I can’t agree with all the points raised above, but it reminded me of something I’ve been thinking about for a while:

    I was raised by my grandparents and my grandmother was, for all intents and purposes, very much the picture of a feminine woman. She married at 16 and had three children. She made all the family’s clothes and curtains etc, was an amazing cook and very houseproud. She didn’t have paid employment until she was in her 40s and her children had left home, when she and my grandfather went into business together as the owners of a restaurant. BUT … (and this is a big “but”) she was not a pushover. She’d been raised in the East End of London, had a real temper on her and wasn’t afraid to tell others what she thought of them. She liked gin, cigarettes and bingo – not stereotypically ladylike interests. All the family’s finances were under her control and she didn’t go begging to my grandfather whenever there was something she wanted to do, but she also didn’t give him a hard time over the decisions he made for himself. Their marriage lasted 42 years. She was from Singapore, but born in Britain (So to most men who look for “non-western” women, she would not qualify) nor was she raised to be the sort of non-feminist woman that advocates of foreign brides look for – both her parents were in prison for much of her childhood, and she grew up in a series of orphanages/foster homes with people who didn’t care about her. When she died from cancer a few years ago, almost everyone in our block of apartments came to her funeral; no one could ever remember arguing with her, or had a bad word to say about her.

    I was 16 at the time and, ironically, that’s what made me decide I would never want to be like her. It seemed like the only thing people remembered about her after she’d died was her cooking, cleaning, or working in low-paid jobs for them (when my grandfather took early retirement after a stroke she continued to work as a waitress and cleaner, not because she needed the money but because she believed that hard work was important.) I really thought “is that it? Is that all she amounted to?” Yes, our family loved her very much but I think everyone’s does. The role that she occupied in the family has now largely gone to my aunt, who is very outspoken, runs her own business, and whose husband does most of the housework/cooking. So I really think it has little to do with how feminine my grandmother was or was not

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Eleri
      Welcome, glad to have you here. Thanks for commenting.

      I was 16 at the time and, ironically, that’s what made me decide I would never want to be like her.

      How did you want to be instead? Has it worked out as you planned? FWIW, I don’t think that femininity is dependent on being in a traditional female role, nor is it related to ahcievement or class. You felt that your grandmother never amounted to anything, but I’m suggesting that a woman may be high achieving and feminine. It’s just that we’ve been programmed to see the two as mutually exclusive. I believe women can get ahead without busting balls or having a pair of their own.

  • Stingray

    So typical of women to take up offense either way.

    Dude, I was a toddler when this happened. Not a woman. I heard the mocking tone used toward the boys and naturally applied this to myself. No one was telling girls at this time that boys and girls were different and it was the way things naturally are. All the girls were being told that there is no difference between boys and girls. Hearing this, of course, throwing like a girl became not just mocking toward boys in our heads, but a completely general mocking term that was used for everyone.

    I think everyone here gets that the “barb is about being like a girl” now. But when you are very young and no one tells you differently it’s not about being a typical woman. It has to do with what we were taught and what experience told us.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think everyone here gets that the “barb is about being like a girl” now.

      Feminism has ensured that doing anything like a girl is an insult for either sex. That includes having sex, btw. When feminists emulated men, they basically stated, “I don’t do “x” like a girl! I do it like a man, only better!”

  • namae nanka

    “Dude, I was a toddler when this happened.”

    ain’t that quite a memory.

    “Not a woman. ”

    geez, you can put in girls there too.

    “All the girls were being told that there is no difference between boys and girls. ”

    and isn’t that what they like to hear? Unless of course, there is no advantage in doing so.

  • Stingray

    namae nanka,

    Good grief, ok. I didn’t think I would have to spell it out in so much detail. Obviously, I did not hear “you . . . like a girl” one time in my childhood. I should have said, It began when I was a toddler and continued throughout my school years.

    “and isn’t that what they like to hear? Unless of course, there is no advantage in doing so.”

    Of course that is was we wanted to hear! It sucks as a kid to hear you can’t do something because your a girl. To have someone tell you otherwise was fantastic. It’s the exact same as hearing you can’t do that until your older and then someone else saying, “No! Go do it now! Won’t it be fun!” It’s why we were told this as children

    But, you make it sound like we should have known better. Like we shouldn’t have taken offense because it was some obvious thing that, even though the tone it is said in, the fact that we are being told there is no difference between boys and girls, and that our experiences were showing us that there is no difference (this experience being that all the people around us were acting this way, not that it actually was this way) we should have easily figured it out for ourselves. Men were not the only people who got the short end of the stick with all of this feminist crap. A lot of women had to sift through a lot of crap that they were told and experienced to figure out for themselves that, holy crap! We truly are different from men and (Good God!) this is a good thing! Most women were certainly not able to do that as a young children or teenagers. Many women don’t figure it out at all. Just look at all the 40 year old career women and cat lovers.

  • Jamie

    @namae nanka

    So typical of women to take up offense either way.

    You know what? It was all the same game of kickball, boys and girls playing together and someone hurls an insult at the weakest boy, the one we all make fun of, “Hey! You throw like a girl!”

    Little kids don’t really make the distinction between the sexes beyond the superficial: girls have long hair and play dolls, boys have short hair and like to break stuff. So now I gotta prove that I play better than the weakest boy (that everyone makes fun of) so that I can still be picked for the good team. That type of insult comes with the heavy implication that girls are, by default, only as good as the weakest boy (that everyone makes fun of.)

    Suppose I said you drive like an Asian person (assuming you are an asian person) but you’re actually a good driver….or not, it doesn’t matter. By making a statement that Asians suck at driving, all Asians will take offense to that, some might work on being better drivers just to prove that the assumption is baseless.

    By the way, when talking about men who complain about female characteristics but have no problem objectifying and pedestalizing, your reply is exactly what I’m talking about.

  • Dan in Philly

    Lot of comments here, so min will likely be lost, but FWIW, here goes:

    Every woman I know of claims to love her man. Loving their man, they tend to want to make him happy. They try to make him happy by doing what they have been taught by the feminized culture in which we live: be strong, independent, reliable, tough, and basically manly. Of course, these traits are frequently associated with being rather free and casual with sex, though not always.

    The problem is this is a big fat lie. Men do not want such women, they want women to act like women, not men, that is in ways illustrated in your previous post. Any woman who comes to realize this has a decision to make: become the kind of person who makes her man happy or not.

    For those who choose the not, I sometimes wonder who they are making happy, since an unhappy husband generally means and unhappy wife they are certainly not making themselves happy with such behavior. Are they making their children happy? Not likely. I think most women don’t think past the implications of their choice, they have been so entirely trained from their youth to be masculine they cannot conceive of a world in which they are feminine.

    Such a world view (let’s call it a feminized world view) is so entirely preached as to be almost inescapable once a woman has bought into it. Even questioning the foundations of feminism is treated with scorn and those who choose to question are attacked as being basically stupid, evil, or both. The arguments that those who question it are rarely attacked, as they arguments themselves are generally unassailable. So ingrained such ridicule is that when a woman herself starts to question the foundations of feminism, she will generally correct herself without any help from her friends.

    This kind of thinking becomes all encompassing, and ends with women making choices as I have described above – sacrificing the happiness of her man, her children, and even herself for a concept which cares nothing for her. I only wish that these women could free themselves of this ridiculous meme and choose their happiness rather than slavishly serving some abstract concept such as feminism.

  • detinennui32

    I’m glad I’m not Lucy’s husband. Or one of her children.

    Women like Lucy are exactly why blogs like this exist — and why our society is on the brink of collapse.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    Dan In Philly

    Pretty summed it up for me…

    People have a hard time going through the process of radical change…

    And as a Black Male… it is even worse with Black Women trying to get them to understand femininity…

    At the end of the day, I have to find a woman who has a great template (Good family, open to learning what makes me happy, & herself…)

    If men want to do their jobs, avoid these women… Men speak loudest by not entertaining these type of women…

  • Eleri

    To be quite honest, I don’t know what I wanted to be! I find her an admirable person but towards the end of her life she seemed to be somehow unsatisfied or wish she’d done other things. She believed my grandfather would die first (understandable – he was 21 years older than her) and used to say that when he died she wanted to study or go travelling. But then it wasn’t being at home with children that denied her any of that; she was dyslexic, never able to read or write properly, and had a terrible start in life with her parents. And no one gets everything they want …

    Only a couple of hours ago I spoke to a friend who said she wanted to repaint her front room but felt she would have to call in someone else because she felt that home decorating was too girly therefore didn’t want to do it! I can understand not sharing in certain typically feminine interests (like clothes or shopping) but when you won’t do the smallest thing for yourself because you fear it makes you too womanly, there is something wrong

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    By the way, when talking about men who complain about female characteristics but have no problem objectifying and pedestalizing, your reply is exactly what I’m talking about.

    Stop right there…

    In order to feel s*xual desire & get into the s*xual mood, there HAS to be some objectification involved…

    Maybe you are the only woman in the world who has never fantasized about handsome men or celebrities…

    And real talk, in a loving relationship… Women LOVE being objectified & seen as property…

    So… please leave objectification out of your argument…

    It is a morally neutral act…

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You felt that your grandmother never amounted to anything, but I’m suggesting that a woman may be high achieving and feminine.

    I don’t know about that Susan in the end all we leave is the experiences we have with others if she touched many people in such a small way I think her life was more fulfilling than many men and women that only leave a trail of pain in their lives. Better to be remembered by individuals for being a nice human, that will be thinking of her every time someone ask them “do you remember the nice lady that used to live in house X? Oh yeah she was great, you don’t find women like her nowadays…” than being the “do you remember who lived in house x? Some woman that traveled a lot??? I don’t remember her”, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie

      I don’t know about that Susan in the end all we leave is the experiences we have with others if she touched many people in such a small way I think her life was more fulfilling than many men and women that only leave a trail of pain in their lives.

      You’re right. I would be very happy if people mourned my passing that way.

  • Bob

    @ Renee

    The “Don’t cuss” thing does apply to everyone, it’s true. However, when I hear a man curse, I don’t usually think of him as less masculine, unless that particular instance represents a lack of control – for instance, a boss responding to a bad quarter by calling his employees a bunch of little shits. In this case, it’s more the lack of control than the particular language that would hurt his image. Failing to curse on a regular basis does not make him less of a man, either. Cursing is pretty much neutral regarding masculinity.

    This is a double standard, it’s true, but most guys will back me up on this – when a girl curses, in almost any context, she becomes less feminine in my eyes. Exceptions exist, but for the most part, it’s neither ladylike nor attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is a double standard, it’s true, but most guys will back me up on this – when a girl curses, in almost any context, she becomes less feminine in my eyes. Exceptions exist, but for the most part, it’s neither ladylike nor attractive.

      I’ve been in a book group with seven other women for years. We all have similar lifestyles. One woman, who is kind and smart and funny, swears like a trucker. She drops the F bomb all the time and says shit twenty times during any discussion. It’s jarring and distracting. I feel repelled by her, and hope she won’t comment! I know other women feel the same way. It’s not only men who find swearing unattractive in women.

      Having said that, I have a bit of a potty mouth here sometimes :-/

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    I have been through this road already today

    Simple as this… This proves a point Roissy keeps making…

    Women have a disdain for weak/beta men… And they feel like you don’t USE your penis (Be a man), you lose your penis…

    And then there just women out there who have a latent crazy that you have to learn about (& RUN!) before its too late…

    What was your conclusion from learning about all those RECENT cases where a man got his penis disturbed in some cruel way…? (historically this doesn’t happen that often…)

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    @Stephanie R: I’d give you a hug for that last comment.

    I’ve been to more funerals than I wish, and the most emotional ones were those with a great human being, who was most remembered for the simple, little things he/she did for others.

    Remember the movie Up – life is made in the small moments.

  • jamie

    And real talk, in a loving relationship… Women LOVE being objectified & seen as property…

    WHAAAAAT? No. We. Don’t.
    Women like attention. They don’t want to be owned.
    Stop listening to Roissy. He doesn’t know anything about women.

    Except how to manipulate women like a catty bitch.
    Notice how I didn’t say, “manipulate like a girl,” because most girls aren’t THAT manipulative.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Remember the movie Up – life is made in the small moments.

    Funny enough I had been to few funerals. But I do remember people in my life that touched me in small ways. The first friend that visited my house, the girl that showed me how to tie my shoe laces, the neighborhood from who I got my first meal not made in home and so on…I always dreamed in making a big party and finding them all and inviting them. Probably for them it was just Tuesday but I will never forget those moments shaping my life for as long as I live.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Probably for them it was just Tuesday but I will never forget those moments shaping my life for as long as I live.

    And if you’ve lived a good life, more than a few people will think the same of you on just a Tuesday.

    Some days I wish I could explain to some people what they’ve done for me.

    Pardon me. I think I have something in my eye…

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You’re right. I would be very happy if people mourned my passing that way.

    First I don’t need to tell you that you had touched many people with your blog. :)

    Second another reason to have a wedding was that this was probably the only time I will gather all my dear friends that will say nice things about me (and the groom) and I would be there to listen. The only other time is your funeral. Another reason why I try and never miss a wedding, most people hate weddings and avoid them but if any of those two pass away everyone wants to be at the funeral to say nice things one last time. Why not tell them nice things in the only other time you can do it with other people that also know them and they will actually listen? Makes sense to me. So is not only the cake that makes me go to weddings…I swear :)

  • jamie

    @ Adonis

    Actually, the only reason I brought up the subject of penis removal is because you mentioned that foreign women are better than American women. I just thought it worth mentioning that while American women are masculine and bossy, it’s extremely rare that they would cut off an ex-lover’s penis and put it in the garbage disposal.

    But as long as we’re talking about it, have you ever seen an asian woman angry? My roommate’s mother is Filipino, a sweet little librarian, but oh-my-god you should have seen her breathe fire when she found out that he hired a limo in Vegas just to take him across the street and charged it to her credit card. IT WAS TERRIFYING. I hid in my bedroom for an hour trying to figure out how to get my elderly dog out the window so we could run far far away.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    When in a sexual relationship, you have to desire the other person sexually. Thus, on both ends, there will always be some “objectification” involved. A man need not treat the woman as property, but he does need to view his woman in an erotic way.

    Also, women generally do not like supplicating, vanilla beta males. The reason alpha males get the girls is because they project confidence and take the lead sexually; they do not neuter themselves for fear of being thought “sexist.”

    Roissy may be nihilistic, but he makes a lot of good points regarding what attracts women.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    Regarding that Asian woman:

    1) Feminine women aren’t doormats.

    2) That’s what happens when you violate someone’s trust after they’ve been good to you. :)

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    @Jamie @CrisisEraDynamo

    Maybe… But American women will more or less cuckold you, more or less take half your resources… And blame the downfall in the relationship all on the man (chances are she wore the pants tho…)

    I’ll take my chances with a feminine foreign Brazilian woman over women in the states…

    #PumpAndDump

  • jamie

    Hi C.E.D.

    I never said roommate didn’t deserve to get reamed, he totally did. I happen to like his mother, she’s a wonderful lady. But that was one of the first few times I’d met her and it scared the living daylights out of me.

    I only brought it up because Adonis seems to think that a feminine-submissive woman from a foreign country is the answer to all his lady-problems.

  • jamie

    @ Adonis

    At least you’d still have your dick after she takes your money.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    Hey Jamie… I heard you…

    However, in my reality, a woman is there to play a supporting role…

    If she is on any other sh*t (strong & independent, etc…) she will not be allowed to play ANY role but maybe a f*ckdoll…. Western woman, foreign woman, Black Woman, White Woman…

    Women should never be a creature that should inspire FEAR in any man…

    So, as long as I keep it masculine, I choose a good woman (most likely foreign, or maybe just WHITE), And train her to please me & be on her best behavior… (And of course, stay away from ANY type of matrimony, commonlaw or traditional)

    I think I will be keeping my cock AND my money… Maybe she will finance my lifestyle…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (And of course, stay away from ANY type of matrimony, commonlaw or traditional)

      :P

  • jamie

    @ Adonis

    HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!!!1

    good luck, buddy.
    talk about “having it all”…

  • jamie

    Further to that….you don’t need a good woman.

    You need a dog and a good hooker.

    Or just the dog and some peanut butter.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    Thank You Jamie… And your words of encouragement… I will be thinking of you when I am building my harem…

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    Just to clarify, I was talking about the roommate violating the Asian woman’s trust.

  • jamie

    We’re clear :)

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    Good. :)

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  • 0verlord

    Hi. My frustration over the blowup in the atheist/skeptics community started by a quasi-celebrity, loud mouthed feminist provocateur is what, indirectly, caused me to find this site. Figured I’d chip in because… what the hell, why not?

    It’s really strange. I observe that feminists seem more interested in changing what it means to be a woman than they do in gender equality. I cannot help but conclude that feminists hate women. Why else would they try so hard to annihilate the special something that makes women who they are? Why fix what isn’t broken? Head explodes.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ 0verlord

    My thoughts exactly. Feminists consider girlishness to be weak and mannishness to be strong, and they deny that the sexes are different in significant ways.

  • 0verlord

    @Crisis, Profound insecurity, I think, is the only way to describe it. My wife is in every way feminine, but “weak” is a word I would never use to describe her. As I see it, these are the women are the ones who are truly empowered and liberated, people that I deeply admire.

  • namae nanka

    “Of course that is was we wanted to hear! It sucks as a kid to hear you can’t do something because your a girl. ”

    It shouldn’t have.

    “But, you make it sound like we should have known better. ”

    No, yes, maybe, doesn’t matter now. It should have been drilled into you.

    “Many women don’t figure it out at all. Just look at all the 40 year old career women and cat lovers.”

    Yes, indeed.

    “Little kids don’t really make the distinction between the sexes beyond the superficial”

    Swedish teachers bashed their heads against the wall. What deep distinctions do adults make btw?

    “girls have long hair and play dolls, boys have short hair and like to break stuff. ”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/sep/01/girls-boys-schools-gender-gap

    “That type of insult comes with the heavy implication that girls are, by default, only as good as the weakest boy”

    Once again, read what I wrote. Why do you take it as an insult? Did anyone say that he threw like you?

    “Implication” “weakest boy”

    “Suppose I said you drive like an Asian person (assuming you are an asian person) but you’re actually a good driver”

    Asians are better at visuo spatial tasks, so the stereotype is wrong, or due to other reasons. (From what I have just read, it is wrong.) Horrible driver btw.

    “By the way, when talking about men who complain about female characteristics but have no problem objectifying and pedestalizing, your reply is exactly what I’m talking about.”

    I feel flattered.

    Feminism is not a negation of femininity, on the contrary it’s such a good example of it. It should be framed ten feet by ten feet and put on the wall of history for every one to see.

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  • brightstormyday

    This concept of looking like a woman is incredibly confusing to me. Not necessarily doing it. I don’t have a problem dressing femininely by societal standards. While I would like to change my look and become super toned and have short hair and dress androgynously, I accept the fact that I’m not a badass six foot tall runway model. I’m petite and I have a feminine appearance. So I’m just going to do what’s easiest, and wear dresses and skirts and such.

    It’s just the concept that wearing a skirt and heels and makeup is supposed to be in our nature. It just isn’t. At all. The reason it’s easier to do these things is because it’s societally acceptable to do them. Women can wear this. So we do. We don’t really go against society. It’s as natural for a woman to wear a skirt as it is for a woman to use the woman’s restroom, or to face the same direction everyone else is facing in an elevator. (Have you ever gone in an elevator and turned your back to everyone?) There are a certain number of social rules, and if you already fit in under a certain level, you don’t want to mess it up. Everyone’s going to have their rebellious phases as a teenager, but realistically….people like to fit in. If it were acceptable for men to wear skirts (as it is in many cultures) and women to wear other things, we’d be wearing those other things. Makeup is fairly recent in terms of being acceptable for women. In Colonial America people believed that only witches wore lipstick. Makeup was a nono for puritan women. Growing out long hair and exposing it to the public is also taboo in some cultures. In other cultures women have to shave their heads on their wedding nights! Heels are also fairly recently popular. My father is almost 70 and he thinks women should not be allowed to wear heels. I don’t know if it’s because he has a more old fashioned mindset (I have friends with traditional Southern parents who refuse to let them wear heels) or if he’s just being practical (they destroy your feet) he thinks they’re disgusting. My dad is from another era and it’s clear because he thinks women shouldn’t wear heels, women shouldn’t have hair past their shoulders, and women shouldn’t wear too much makeup or clothing that exposes too much skin. The definition of a “feminine” appearance is constantly changing and from culture to culture can be very different. So to say that high heels, dresses, and makeup is in our coding doesn’t really make sense. It isn’t. But, if you mean that subconciously, we’re going to do these things to work within our society to attract a man, then yes. From society to society women do different things to their appearance to attract men, just as men do things to attract women. Men will even wear makeup. Not that strange. And it’s not feminine either. If you’re going to label “feminine” behavior as a specific set of behaviors I’d say you’re wrong, but if you’re going to say feminine behavior is a specific set of societally acceptable behaviors (that may vary from era to era or society to society) that women use to attract men, reproduce, and raise children, I’d say you might be right. Might need to expand on that definition though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @stormy

      The definition of a “feminine” appearance is constantly changing and from culture to culture can be very different. So to say that high heels, dresses, and makeup is in our coding doesn’t really make sense. It isn’t. But, if you mean that subconciously, we’re going to do these things to work within our society to attract a man, then yes. From society to society women do different things to their appearance to attract men, just as men do things to attract women. Men will even wear makeup.

      You raise a good point. True femininity may or may not be present, even when a woman appears feminine. There are women who wear high heels, dresses that show off their body and tons of makeup and they are the antithesis of feminine, even though they are hot. As for men wearing makeup, emos wearing guyliner is not at all strange, even in our culture.

      Appearance is part of femininity, but only one part. A lot of it has to do with character – are you nurturing rather than self-centered? Cooperative rather than competitive? Femininity is the yin to masculinity’s yang. It’s an essential part of female nature, and when we deny or repress it, we are not being authentic. It’s not a specific set of behaviors – it’s a mindset, a way of being that produces behaviors.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    It’s just the concept that wearing a skirt and heels and makeup is supposed to be in our nature.

    its not, of course

  • brightstormyday

    @CrisisEraDynamo:

    I also find it confusing that a woman can’t be a woman and be strong. So, if a woman shows any kind of strength, she’s a man? We all have to be strong at some point or another. Being a woman isn’t about being weak. Haven’t you seen how defensive women get about their children, even more so than fathers? Now THAT is strength!

    I think the issue I always saw with feminism is that it doesn’t celebrate the awesome things women do that men don’t. Feminism says things like,”Women are awesome!” and then they try to be men. Well if women are awesome then why try to be a man? It’s an insult to women.

    At the same time, I don’t like how the sphere puts women down. Like somehow women are lesser or inferior. I don’t know if it’s because the men in the sphere have damaged egos and need to feel better by asserting themselves over women. It’s confusing. I’d hate to be in a relationship with one of those people, they must be like those guys who are pussies and get pushed around by other men, so then they go home and beat their wife and kids to make up for the hit to their egos.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @stormy

      I also find it confusing that a woman can’t be a woman and be strong. So, if a woman shows any kind of strength, she’s a man? We all have to be strong at some point or another. Being a woman isn’t about being weak.

      Early in this thread someone shared the story of his incredibly strong and feminine mother working under very difficult conditions in the third world with a positive attitude. Femininity does not exclude strength. As you point out, a woman can and should be strong for her children, be willing to die for them if necessary.

      The kind of strength that is not feminine is masculine strength. It’s social dominance, competitive and behavior, denial of one’s emotional life. Masculine strength is natural to men but not to women. We can be just as strong as men while still being feminine – it’s just that we’ve lost the knowledge of how to do that. We’ve mimicked males to achieve what they’ve achieved, but we’ve lost a key part of ourselves in the process. I think that’s why research shows that female happiness has declined steadily since the 70s.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    @brightstormyday The take home from your comment… his DO WHAT IT TAKES TO ATTRACT THE MEN YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO…

    Other than that, do what the eff you want…

    But if you want a quality man… You have a standard to uphold

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ brightstormyday

    At the same time, I don’t like how the sphere puts women down. Like somehow women are lesser or inferior. I don’t know if it’s because the men in the sphere have damaged egos and need to feel better by asserting themselves over women. It’s confusing. I’d hate to be in a relationship with one of those people, they must be like those guys who are pussies and get pushed around by other men, so then they go home and beat their wife and kids to make up for the hit to their egos.

    Manosphere men don’t act bitter toward women because of bruised egos. These men have been hurt emotionally and financially by the wives they loved. They lost their property and their children just because their wives grew bored of their niceness and divorced them. They notice that women say they want sensitive, caring guys but go on to screw total jerks. The colleges, the government, and the media denigrate them. These men are told that they must “respect women,” but women are told that they don’t have to respect men.

    All while being told that men are the privileged sex, so they deserve anything that happens to them.

    Within a culture that glorifies women and condemns men, don’t be surprised to see such bitter attitudes toward women. I don’t hold such hatred, nor have I become nihilistic; I’m just explaining why the manosphere has such a low opinion of women.

    As for femininity, it comes down to the characteristics Susan mentioned in “The Summertime Femininity Challenge.” If you’re in a relationship, you can be those things to your man without being weak, helpless, or ignorant. Think of it as Game for women.

  • Wian

    Hi Again….

    @ lucy – ok, I get that you’d like to use a word other than “Nurture” for the acts of nurture you apparently give to your man, but because you’ve used that word already for an exlusive purpose… talking about nurturing an adult man must therefore mean coddling the poor sod…. ok. how about “support”? will that word work? I’m going to use the word “nurture” and hope your agile enough mentally. I suspect we are going to stay at odds on the use of the word. (shrug) it’s not important; what I’m getting is that you do infact give your man nurture, without mothering him. Awesome!

    not @ Lucy ; for bored, SAHM…. some of you did it to yourselves.

    ucy says:
    July 13, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    @Matt C

    I suggest you read MMSL’s posts on stay-at-home parents. In a nutshell, the home does not NEED a full time employee like it once did. With that in mind, what is the point of having a wife at home? I could see that being understandable with young children, but in the grand scheme there really isn’t a need for someone to man the house at all times anymore. (Unless you life on a farm or something? I’m assuming that you don’t.)

    @Wian

    I’m not a selfish cow, but thanks for that. I’m not interested in treating men like infants is what I was getting at. I’ve seen many SAHM’s, that are clearly bored with their lives, and have started treating their husbands as children (i.e. something to complain about with other women even though they love them oh-so-dearly and would actually never leave). They don’t even see their partners as people anymore, merely infants and one more annoyance in their day. I am not interested in treating my husband as an infant and so I think we may need to use a different word instead of ‘nurture’. Nurture is, to me at least, inherently motherly and, as I said before, I will not mother my husband. I nurture my kids, I ______ my husband. Hmm… don’t know what word would work there, it’s the same concept of nurturing but it’s intent is definitely NOT the same as what I do with kids. See what I’m saying?

    (From Lucy’s post..)
    “I’ve seen many SAHM’s, that are clearly bored with their lives, and have started treating their husbands as children (i.e. something to complain about with other women even though they love them oh-so-dearly and would actually never leave). They don’t even see their partners as people anymore, merely infants and one more annoyance in their day. “

    And that’s really important. Relationship skills are learned. If you want a strong strong man, don’t mother him. refuse to. – SAHMs that are bored and feel like they are chained to a child… well… take flipping responsibility for inappropriate mothering. DUH. Sure, he should have darn well left, or manned up, or whatever – sure, you can blame the man for everything – go ahead, really we’re used to it and we aren’t impressed. At what point are you going to stop mothering inappropriately? Do you think that every man is some alpha? ‘You going to lament that your man isn’t one? and then make yourself poisonous? go to hell. Seriously. control your self. “I poisoned him and he died. what a wimp!” your tits are sour; never have children because they will grow up hating men. (No Lucy, this is not directed at you; it’s to “victims”)

    I’m not done. If you want your man to behave like a man, always treat him like one. If it’s not working, maybe one or both parties are confused about what a man is. I mean really, if you’re so damn special that you deserve a “REAL MAN” one would have shown up, and the the man-boy would have faired poorly with the competition. You didn’t get an alpha, neither did he. suck it up, because he does every day in ways you probably can’t imagine. Maybe you smell bad downstairs… or never give head, or say thank you, or maybe you’re not able to hear what he’s communicating to you in “manspeak” or maybe you ask for the wrong things the wrong ways…but from the right man. Stop whining and from here on in you, through your actions, EXPECT manly behavior- remind him he is a man, apparently he needs that, and YES, I agree he should know and (perhaps) never ever fail or be human I know I know. – and he DOES need to remind you you’re a woman. Whatever that might mean to you. So remind him you’re a woman. Good luck, you’ll need it, saboteurs.

    While I’m vitriolic….

    Who’s damn fault is it a sahm is bored? What the hell? How the hell is an independent, strong and intelligent person EVER BORED? That’s retarded. I never want to hear that you’re bored EVER. – disillusioned… sure, so is your man – maybe that’s why he’s taking you for all you’ll give him… maybe that’s why he’s depressed and won’t find work… maybe he thought you were a winner, because when he met you you were taking martial arts and part of a fencing team, but you stopped when things got serious in the relationship and you decided, passively, to invest in becoming a fat face-book addict with a love for cats and tabloids. Welcome to growing up. – adulthood is not a reward for being a good kid. We’ve tossed good role models for behaviour and courtesy, and decency out the door it seems.

    Why is your man responsible for your quality of life? aren’t you contributing? maybe his contributions to the relationship are crap, or maybe you can’t recognize them. Maybe he’s not noticing your contributions? or maybe he does but doesn’t value them? - that’s not about masculinity or femininity. That’s about the relationship – a skill that is not innate, and needs constant polish.

    There is a way of talking to a man that inspires, and empowers him… and it is not coddling. It is a skill that can turn your man into your personal God, and you his Goddess. Equal and different. Vitally alive to each other, yourselves, and fun.

    Summary : Feminine nurture – be the priestess in his temple/sanctuary sometimes. Support, nurture, call it what you want and yea, it sure does include sex!

    Is your man a boy? STOP MOTHERING HIM. Most people are not alphas; and women should take as much personal responsibility for being cruel and stupidly shortsighted as men are expected to. He never MADE you mother him; you’re a strong independent, and smart woman..(right?) that may have for some reason agreed to mother him and forgot to stop, or perhaps were clumsy with Feminine nurture (relationship skills) – or, he could just be a loser – just check your pockets for dogshit before you decide the smell is from someplace else.

    Be accountable. think. A great feminist will blame a man. (cheap shot) An adult will take responsibility for themselves. I would like to hope we can temper ourselves with some firmness, kindness, and at least non-betrayal.

    Wian

  • Wian

    huh, something went wrong with the quoting, appareantly…. – I was trying to quote the stuff in italics. – the otehr stuff… didn’t even show up when I as proofreading. – anyways…. oops.

  • Natural Lolita

    “In particular, I’ve been struggling with embracing femininity. I was raised as a competitive, proud, tomboy, and while there are plenty of wonderful things I’ve gotten from that, femininity is not one. I didn’t know what conditioner was until I got to college, and I didn’t start wearing makeup until I entered the work force a year ago.”

    And good that you didn’t! There is no need to put carcinogenic chemicals on your scalp and face?

    Why is femininity associated with product consumerism?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Natural Lolita

      Why is femininity associated with product consumerism?

      Cosmetics have served one purpose for thousands of years: to heighten fertility cues. Large, clear eyes. Full dark lips. Clear skin. Healthy teeth. These are the cues that signal a good baby mama prospect, and it’s what men are conditioned to respond to.

  • brightstormyday

    @Adonis:

    But what is a quality man? And who defines that? A number of male bloggers in the sphere write things like,’I am a quality man and won’t waste my time with women who won’t see that.” That’s cool…but some of these men aren’t desirable people to even be around for a number of reasons (criminal history, series of bad relationships, etc.)….and they’re calling themselves quality?

    It was like one person I met who insisted that I don’t like alpha males because I don’t like athletes and something was wrong with me. ok cool. So I want to have smart babies. That doesn’t mean I don’t like alphas, it just means I’m not going to go looking for smart genes in athletes.

    @CrisisEraDynamo:
    The Summertime Femninity Challenge should be called…Common Sense or How to Interact with People 101. The abrasive comments from the women in regards to that post might have to do with the fact that:
    Susan Walsh prefaced the “challenge” stating that women should neglect careers and their futures and instead focus on their…sexuality and femininity. This goes against everything in the Common Sense handbook. You don’t focus on your sexuality or femininity. Yes, you do take time to keep fit. Yes, you don’t get fat, this shouldn’t be hard, but for some people today, it is. Yes, you do take time to get ready and look nice. Again, this shouldn’t be hard, but for some American girls (rubber flip flops to a formal? wtf) it is. But beyond that, everything should be effortless. What Susan Walsh described is effortless.

    Being nurturing isn’t about treating everyone like a baby. It’s about listening to people when they’re feeling down or stressed. If you see someone not doing well, ask how they’re doing. Lend an ear. Listen. Don’t rush to give advice. Sit there and let them talk. Occasionally empathize, like,”I see you’re feeling (emotion) because (summary of what they just said).” It’s about being a good person.

    Being playful isn’t all,”I’m a stupid girl, look at me! teehee!” It’s just about enjoying the time you spend with people you like. Laugh. Smile. Live a little. Being subtle, aka, don’t text him every five minutes, don’t ask for sex, don’t try to kiss him, and (this goes into being playful) don’t let him kiss you too soon. Pull away, look at him flirtily, smile, giggle, whatever. I can’t see how this is not natural behavior for girls. I always thought that my behaviors were social awkwardness. The fact that my voice gets softer and I giggle and blush around a guy I like is so embarrassing for me. The fact that I’m awkward and shy about physical intimacy always made me feel so immature compared to the girls that just went for it. But guys like it, and apparently, Susan Walsh is trying to coach girls to act this way. I just don’t get it, because to me, I feel like…there’s a different kind of female behavior that’s idolized now. Not necessarily the coy and feminine. And not necessarily these wannabe angry toughgrrrrls that are commenting in response to that post. (And if any of you wannabe angry toughgrrrls get angry, I’m sorry, but do you realize how aggressive you are coming across? You’re not even coming off as masculine. You’re coming across as disagreeable, and that’s not what you want!) I’ve been called an airhead at times, and I don’t sound like a valleygirl. There is a middle ground that everyone is trying to channel and is overshooting and missing, usually by becoming too strong and failing at it. I think the middle ground can best be exemplified by some of the characters Angelina Jolie plays in movies, kind of like the Amazonian Alphas alias clio describes at her blog.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan Walsh prefaced the “challenge” stating that women should neglect careers and their futures and instead focus on their…sexuality and femininity.

      Huh? I think I suggested that summertime was a good opportunity to change things up and think about your interactions with the opposite sex. For many of my readers, it’s summer vacation. For others, the pace of work is more relaxed during the summer, and people take some time off.

      The fact that my voice gets softer and I giggle and blush around a guy I like is so embarrassing for me. The fact that I’m awkward and shy about physical intimacy always made me feel so immature compared to the girls that just went for it. But guys like it, and apparently, Susan Walsh is trying to coach girls to act this way.

      I’m trying to get you to see that there is nothing at all wrong with feeling awkward around sex or blushing when you’re with a guy you like. You’re right, guys do like it, and it’s because you are being very female when you do that, responding to their maleness. That is a good thing. What is not good is your feeling envious of girls who “just go for it.” If you look inside their stories, you’re likely to find lots of frustration, heartbreak, and low self-esteem. So everybody loses.

      I’m suggesting that women can feel better about themselves if they allow themselves to be female by doing what comes naturally, and not judging it. Because it really, really isn’t working the other way around.

      I just don’t get it, because to me, I feel like…there’s a different kind of female behavior that’s idolized now.

      That’s a cultural construct, brought to you by the Women’s Movement. Men don’t like it. This is not a problem for you if you don’t care what men like. If you do care what men like, this post is really a reflection of feedback from male readers, not something I thought up.

  • brightstormyday

    @CrisisEraDynamo:

    I’m actually going to concoct a better response for you new in regards to our culture and your comment.

    I don’t necessarily think the culture glorifies women. Yes, it glorifies women as an empty shell, in a way. As something you can mold into whatever you want. The true essence of women…of the feminine, has been melted down into something simplistic. To be feminine is to be a vapid, catty airhead. It’s to be stupid. To be female, is to be everything– powerful, intelligent, perfect, and entitled to everything. To be masculine is to be violent and brutish and overtly sexual. There is no positive alternative to what it is to be male, because the true positives that come with being male are being handed over to being female. In short, feminists threw away the feminine…the benefit of being female, and are now attempting to hijack the male gender. Their concept of androgyny isn’t true androgyny…it’s masculization. They threw away what they had and are trying to take away what men have. The reason I say trying is because they haven’t actually succeeded, not fully.

    I don’t think that women leaving the workforce will change things. You can be successful and still find a man that you respect, without him necessarily being your boss. I think what women need to learn is that they need to be open minded and look for men outside their field. A lawyer female might enjoy the company of a successful engineer, maybe not another lawyer. A male lawyer might be suited to a woman who’s a teacher or an architect. Even people in similar fields can have good relationships, as long as they are different enough that they don’t feel like they are competing for the same things career wise.

    I also do think a number of these men have bruised egos. It does hurt your ego to be rejected by someone you trusted for so long. It does hurt your ego to find out you’ve been cuckolded. It does hurt your ego to have your family fall apart, since a man is widely considered head of the family. These things are ego bruising. Divorce is shameful. Especially since people will blame the man. This is why so much of game is dedicated to confidence building.

  • brightstormyday

    @Susan:

    You’re right I should just be me and not try to be anything else. Trying to be in your face for me is like a mouse trying on a lion’s costume–doesn’t fit.

    I’ve been hurt a lot (by girls, not guys) this way…and I wonder if it’s a competition thing. When I went to college I thought it was my big chance to make tons of friends. I made lots of friends, but I’ll never forget a group of girls I was so friendly and chatty with and they immediately shunned me afterwards, and then tried to get my best friend to do the same (the first month of college!) because I’m “so fake.” I was myself with them because I thought this was my chance to be bouncy and skippy and and a bit weird (“You’re so lucky you have that view! You have a view of the fairy tree! I call it that because it looks like fairies live in it!”) and still make friends and not have to filter my personality, and then I get called fake. Even if someone is feminine or silly or whatever women will make it a point to try to cancel out those behaviors. Even in novels and movies girls like me get shunned. (See Luna Lovegood).

    In hs I was competitive for grades but it didn’t stop me from helping someone if they needed help (not via cheating or copying but through tutoring) and I still was myself and tried to be nice to everyone. One teacher described me as friendly but lacking friends. One girl (I guess she saw me as a main competitor) described me as everything….goody two shoes…know it all…etc. But being successful at school didn’t stop some guys from liking me for some reason, so I guess I’ve always just been doing okay. The populars aren’t that important.

    I think the takeaway from this is, if you like the people your personality is attracting, be yourself and don’t change?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @stormy

      I think the takeaway from this is, if you like the people your personality is attracting, be yourself and don’t change?

      That’s actually a great takeaway! Honestly, women can be such bitches, and it’s nearly always a form of jealousy. Your being “fake” is actually probably a case of your being interesting and quirky in a way that others are drawn to. Women are fierce intrasexual competitors, and they perceive that it’s in their interest to shoot down a girl who is getting some attention. You know you’re not being fake, and if they’re threatened by you, they’re not worth your friendship. Often the most popular kids have the worst character. They get to the top by being vicious and very dominant in their social circle. They’re highly manipulative and narcissistic. Pursue your own interests and you’ll meet people with whom you are more compatible. When you come across a girl you think might be a cool friend, reach out and take the initiative.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    brightstormyday
    Comment:
    @Adonis:

    But what is a quality man? And who defines that? A number of male bloggers in the sphere write things like,’I am a quality man and won’t waste my time with women who won’t see that.” That’s cool…but some of these men aren’t desirable people to even be around for a number of reasons (criminal history, series of bad relationships, etc.)….and they’re calling themselves quality?

    I cannot speak for my male counterparts… But I can definitely relate to what I have heard…

    What I thought made me a quality male was my pride in treating women well & making constant adjustments looking to make her happy…

    When you meet women so say that their beau treats them badly & you are one of the rare men who is a good dude… You feel like a man of quality (Then you realize that treating women badly is a good thing in a woman’s dating prime, especially if she doesn’t have a strong father in her household…)

    Men of quality is defined by who WOMEN give their p*ssies to… That is who the men of quality are… And that varies by the woman’s age, weight, declining beauty… That is it…

    It was like one person I met who insisted that I don’t like alpha males because I don’t like athletes and something was wrong with me. ok cool. So I want to have smart babies. That doesn’t mean I don’t like alphas, it just means I’m not going to go looking for smart genes in athletes.

    I would define an alpha male is the man who most women have a strong attraction to…

    Certain male of social dominance & status might not do it for you…

    A beta male might be ALPHA in your eyes…

    My point is, their are men that YOU personally find attractive… Make the adjustments to attractive THOSE men…

    Or you can just settle :-)

    Enjoy

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Often the most popular kids have the worst character. They get to the top by being vicious and very dominant in their social circle. They’re highly manipulative and narcissistic.

    In school I knew a few “people of the top” who had good character (but then, I came from the south where good character is greatly encouraged) but those are very rare and trying to “aim” for them will usually leave one heartbroken. (why? 1) Because the odds are you won’t “hit” one of the good ones but one of the bad ones and 2) the competition for the good ones is so fierce)

    Even now, while I might not turn down “the top” for a one-night stand (well I would, but speaking theoretically), for a long term relationship, I prefer someone who is good (thinks of others more than herself), tough (doesn’t whine unless it’s warranted), interesting (can hold & contribute to a conversation) and fun-loving (likes to play games). I can’t remember where I heard it, but there was advice from somewhere that said, “Ladies, use your looks to land a guy, and your personality to keep him.” (because those looks fade over time)

    Oh wait, the Bible pointed out all of this several centuries ago.
    Proverbs 31:10-31. (seriously, Susan, you could probably do a whole post on that passage) It starts:
    A wife of noble character who can find?
    She is worth far more than rubies.

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  • Stephenie Rowling

    Even in novels and movies girls like me get shunned. (See Luna Lovegood).

    Awww you are like Luna? Can I adopt you? :)

  • Blues

    This concept of looking like a woman is incredibly confusing to me. Not necessarily doing it.

    And here’s where it’s failing, you know how Yohami tells guys not to use game but to BE a man?, same thing but change game and men for femininity and women, if you just look like a woman you’re not doing anything productive in the long run, just faking, yo have to be a woman, not pretend to be a woman.

    All you have to do is understand that everything feminism ever said about femininity is BS and take it from there, sure, there will be things you’re not comfortable with but no one said you have to do everything, much like game/alphaness it’s about taking what works for you and amplify your own brand of femininity. YMMV.

  • Blues

    But what is a quality man? And who defines that?

    You do, depending on what you seek in a man

    A number of male bloggers in the sphere write things like,’I am a quality man and won’t waste my time with women who won’t see that.”

    Because they know what they’re worth and won’t settle for less than what they want, this can also work for women provided they actually know what they want and not just think they do or say it.

    That’s cool…but some of these men aren’t desirable people to even be around for a number of reasons (criminal history, series of bad relationships, etc.)….and they’re calling themselves quality?

    What blogs are you reading? Of the men i know that fit this i can’t think of any that gives of “criminal history”, as for “series of bad relationships” any beta and former beta out there can qualify that.

    It was like one person I met who insisted that I don’t like alpha males because I don’t like athletes and something was wrong with me. ok cool. So I want to have smart babies. That doesn’t mean I don’t like alphas, it just means I’m not going to go looking for smart genes in athletes.

    And since when alpha = athlete? or athlete = dumb for that matter?

  • Natural Lolita

    “Cosmetics have served one purpose for thousands of years: to heighten fertility cues. Large, clear eyes. Full dark lips. Clear skin. Healthy teeth. These are the cues that signal a good baby mama prospect, and it’s what men are conditioned to respond to.”

    Women look for all of that in men too. Traditionally in ancient cultures men have worn all or pretty darn near the same cosmetics and jewelry that women have. They still do in tribal societies. Although its not mainstreamed in our society there have always been a minority of men who wore cosmetics here in our modern society too, and metrosexuals are increasing.

    Again, I ask: what does femininity, or masculinity for that matter, have to do with product consumption?

  • Steve

    The notion of a housewife taking care of her husband has become jaw-droppingly offensive. Yet no one bats an eyelash when a man plays the traditional role of husband. A woman can refuse to cook and clean, but that same woman is perfectly willing to accept a $12,000 engagement ring from the man who supports her for life. Ask a woman to iron your shirt & she replies, “Hello! It’s the 21st century. Didn’t you get the memo?” But a man can’t retort with “Fine! I’ll iron my own shirt. But this paycheck I bring home is for me & the kids. If you want food, clothing, etc., you’ll have to get it for yourself.” Such is the nature of our twisted gynocracy.

  • Scott

    There are two types of equality that are at issue in society among men and women. Firstly there is quantitative equality, which is how we value people, how expendable they are, and what deference we show to them; secondly there is qualitative equality which is defined by the function we serve in society. Feminism seeks qualitative equality for women, and I really can’t blame women for desiring this because functionally it is highly rewarding, carries a certain degree of prestige and more importantly a higher level of personal freedom of choice in the direction of our lives. Pre-Feminism women had very low qualitative equality and who can blame them for wanting more? However at that time they had far higher quantitative equality as evidenced by societal traditions such as chivalry. When the Titanic went down the call was “women and children first” this embodied the value society placed upon men and women at the time. Women had exceedingly high value, and men were seen as expendable. The problem we have today is in adjusting to the alteration in value society places upon the genders, because as much as many would likes to think so, you can’t have the best of both worlds. When a woman demands to be a man’s equal qualitatively he develops a measure of resentment and henceforth reduces her quantitative value. She will in turn resent this because she feels that she deserves to be treated in a certain manner due to her gender. And, in striving to attain qualitative sameness inevitably all that is found is failure because the truth is we ARE different inherently. Femininity is a throwback to the days of quantitative and qualitative inequality, much as chivalry is, and both will continue to decline so long as the sexes try to bring the two measurements closer together. I believe that “the cat is out of the bag” so to speak, now that women have tasted a greater amount of qualitative equality, they will never want to return to the old system of valuation. Which, to put it bluntly is fine by me because since women have now lost their elevated quantitative value, I can screw around without having to commit with far less societal consequences. Not only that, I gain a level of notoriety and respect for doing so. However when considering commitment, most men prefer the old system, and femininity in a woman is evidence that she also prefers the old mode of society. Our actions speak louder than our words, and an androgynous woman wants to be like men. Which is fine for sex, but not for a life of commitment. Which do you want? Choose, because you can’t have both.

  • anon

    I just finished reading almost all of these responses.

    I don’t know why.

    I am compelled to respond anyway, though my opinion and perspective of this baffling concept may fall on deaf ears. And its very possible that I will lose this url and forget to return to this page.

    But I’m going to respond anyway.

    I tried the femininity thing. I really did. I wore my hair down (which, I do aboht 0% of the time). I wore jewelry. I put on make up. I wore *skirts, for God’s sake*And I smiled when I was addressed—-even on the Metro, which is the creepiest time to meet people. And you know what?

    Nothing changed.

    I was still ignored by guys. And my guy friends laughed at my radical transformation.

    I’ll pause for a moment here to say this. I am *not* one of the guys. Get me in a large group of ‘em and I will evaporate before your very eyes. I’m not very fond of participating in high impact sports. I have a pretty strong fear of my glasses shattering in my eyeballs, and I refuse to buy contacts.

    That being said. I put on my sneakers, put my hair back, and threw on some jeans, rubbed off all my make up. Man. It felt like the world had come off my shoulders.

    I grew up in a household where ladylike things were spoken of rather tongue-in-cheek. Not to say I have bad manners, or that my parents didn’t raise me right. If I were going to the White House, I would not wear flip-flops. If a friend of mine is crying, I am more than happy to be a crying shoulder. I will go out of my way, even.

    But! My mom mostly wore sweatpants. She kept her hair short and very rarely saw her wear make-up. My dad used to joke that in a house full of women, he wore the most lotion. They met in the military–thank God women are allowed to serve their country–but she had to get out (which caused me great guilt). When me and my sisters started going to school, Mom went back to work. And–gasp–the household chores were split between all of us (though it was *always* my dad’s job to take out the garbage.)

    I am the oldest, so perhaps my parents raised me different. But the main message I got from them was, be a strong, independent woman who doesn’t need a man to fulfill her needs. Incidently, I would hear the same message at my all-girl’s Catholic school. If you’ll allow me to segue into an antecdote.

    There was a bug in the tub, once when I was small, and I went to my dad to kill it. He rolled up a newspaper, and said, “Do it yourself.” He watched me timidly cross the porcelain tile to the bug for its execution. I slapped the paper down, goo in its wake. I ran back to my dad, face alit, toothless grin, saying, “Didja see me? Didja see me?” And he hugged me, saying he did and that he was proud. He felt reassured I would be competent in life, and wouldn’t stop at anything “just because I was a girl.” He taught me math and science and how to play defense in basketball. Mom taught me career first, man later, how to read and how to throw a baseball; she was my softball coach during my city-league years.

    Also, I’d like to say I’m pretty smart. I’m double majoring now. Going abroad in the spring semester, and looking for internships in the federal government’s intelligence and defense fields. (You see,just because I’m not living for a man doesn’t mean I can’t serve other things…and, holy hell get paid for it.)

    And did I mention, that although I’m stressed as all hell, I wouldn’t have it any other way?

    So where am I getting at?

    Well, basically, that femininity is not something inherent. Yeah. I’m going to beat that horse some more. I’m not even really nurturing around kids. Babies cry around me. When I was teaching after school classes to 7th graders, I was the “mean” one who took away their calculators.

    I’ve already tried to be feminine. To be whimsical and flowy and mysterious. And quite honestly…

    I don’t think I want to again.

    Am I a kind and polite person? Yes. Do I wear a dress and heels when I absolutely have to? Yes. (Accounting class and getting groceries are not that time though.) But I open my own pickle jars, kill my own bugs, and open my own doors. (Also…I hate baths. Hate em hate em hate em.) Primarily because I get a kick out of seeing how physically strong I am. And then there’s just the simple fact that I’m by myself 80% of the day. I love my friends, but they (male and female friends) are just as driven as I, and our schedules rarely coincide.

    And…I don’t like it when someone opens up my pickle jar. Makes me feel uncomfortable. And like a child. I didn’t like it when I told my now ex-boyfriend that I don’t celebrate Valentine’s Day, that birthdays are often forgotten in my family, and that I wanted nothing for Christmas—and he got me stuff anyway (which I would have returned if my mom hadn’t meddled). So, if a man derives his need from doing things, and conquering things, and doting on us…

    Then I don’t want, nay, need a man.

    And I could honestly care less.

    If you got through all of that, then congrats, and sorry for the stream of conscious. Also, sorry for the typos. I’m typing on my iPad (something else I would gladly spend money on then clothes or manicures), and it’s just at the right distance that I can’t see well. So…yeah. Sorry. :/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @anon
      Thanks for your comment, I found it delightful. I appreciate your honesty, your self-respect, and your determination to be genuine. You refuse to do what used to be called “putting on airs.” OK, good for you. You know who you are and what you want. I have little doubt that you’ll get it. Best of luck.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Wow, Sue, what’s the story with the sudden flood of spammers?

  • JJ

    Here is a queer man’s two cents. What’s up with all this gender-based structure? It’s almost suffocating. Why is it that being nurturing, beautiful, graceful, and/or subtle HAVE to be feminine, and why is it that being strong, mean, and the like HAVE to be masculine? Also, what’s up with men liking “feminine” women and women liking “masculine” men? I don’t understand such a gender-based dichotomy at all. Can’t people go after people for who they are, not for demonstrating traits associated with the person’s sex?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JJ

      No one HAS to be anything, but the sexes are wired very differently. That truth is easily observed in the estrogen/testosterone distribution. As for attraction triggers, the question of what men and women like has been researched in great depth. All of this applies to heterosexual people, so YMMV.

  • JJ

    By the way: What’s a queer man doing in such a heterosexual-oriented site? Good question.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    JJ,

    I dont understand why cats HAVE to be feline either. Or why is that plants HAVE to do the photosynthesis. And why gorillas HAVE to smell like shit. Ok you were born as a cow but do you HAVE to produce milk?

    Nature can be so patronizing.

  • J

    I’m 100% sure I’m 100% incapable to be feminine (and it’s a lie that all girls are naturally feminine). And I don’t really want to. Being feminine looks really unsafe to me. I really don’t understand why men don’t beat feminine girls up (or hurt them in any other way) when they say “no” to any mens request. Every time I see feminine woman she’s miserable – she’s either a victim or a bitch. And none of these categories can’t do a thing without their men (who will inevitably leave them with time).

    I don’t really want to be suffering just because I was born that way and I gave up on having husband, children or anything that can be classified as “relationships” (perspective on being beaten uo multiple times, before I’ll find “the one” doesn’t makes relationships look good for me), so I don’t actually loose anything by not being feminine. Even if I’d ever wanted to act like a girl chances of being abused keep me from it.

  • d

    I agree that femininity is undervalued, but a kot of that comes from men who constantly make it very clear that feminine values, concerns and behaviour styles are at best irrelevant, and at worst unacceptable. Besides, people seem to be forgetting that, in many circumstances, being feminine is not going to be an effective way to deal with situations. Women HAD to act masculine to be allowed into “men’s jobs” and escape the requirement of being a dependant homemaker. (I don’t think there is anything wrong with homemaking, but only if that is the person’s choice). In many cases, we HAVE to be agressive just to be taken seriously and not walked all over. I know men who wont listen and don’t give a shit what you have to say if you us gentle, siplonatic tactics. My mother was very feminine, and my athwr beat th living shit out of her. He didn’t hurt me because when he tried, I stood up to him like a man. Not all men are violent in that way, but a simmilar thing happens on varying levels, ev as innocuously as a man who ignores a feminine woman’s opinion on how to fix the car.

    The other issue I have is that so many “feminine”women fall into 2 categories: ignored because their behaviour/decorum is so unusual that they’re under the radar, or vapid, simpering muniskirtwearing, women who are annoying as fuck, who cozy up to men, manipulate, treat other women like shit- but the men don’t notice their poor characters because of the big ego-stroke they get from these women. No wonder femininity is a hard sell.

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  • http://www.femininelife.net F2

    The most unfortunate thing for women who see the world the same way that men do. Seeing power, strength and intelligence as characteristics authentic only with masculine traits. I makes sense why when women are trying to show that they’re strong act so aggressive and masculine. Conversely everything in nature has duality. Strength, power, and high degree of intellect does come in the feminine form. It looks nothing like a mans strength and power. Women saying that they aren’t feminine by nature is interesting as well. Most of what people do is from habit not their own nature. To me real women’s empowerment would look like women having the right to be women, graceful, nurturing, loving, kind, feminine, thoughtful, while being firm powerful strong creatures and that being respected. Taking on so many masculine traits seems to take women away from nature. Proving that we’re strong by acting masculine and proving we can do what men do is still putting men at the center of epitome.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @F2

      To me real women’s empowerment would look like women having the right to be women, graceful, nurturing, loving, kind, feminine, thoughtful, while being firm powerful strong creatures and that being respected.

      +1, great comment

  • Feminina

    I agree that there is a misconception about femininity. In North America, naturally feminine women are treated very badly and misunderstood. I have never gone out of my way to be feminine, but it has always been in my demeanour, despite my being well educated, ambitious, well travelled, and into regular exercise. I have always felt that women’s attempt here to act hard and aggressive, like men, does not facilitate equality between the genders but only means that they themselves do not, deep down, believe in that equality since they think they need to model themselves after a male template rather than achieving equality purely as women while being true to their own natures. Luckily I am not North American (incidentally, this is an anglo North American problem, not an international problem except where some individuals from other cultures might try to imitate this one), but I grew up here and it is one of the things I hate about this continent.