Today I’m pleased to feature a guest post by Detinennui32, a reader and commenter at HUS. I’ll give my take on this from a female perspective at the end. Be sure to check out Badger’s commentary as well – he’s running the post today here.
The One That Got Away
by Detinennui32
I’d like to tell a personal story. It has implications for relationships that don’t get explored much in the current SMP. There isn’t much about game in this story, but I submit there are many game lessons for men and women.
This is a true story. I have changed names and obscured some details. I humbly offer this in the hopes of persuading you to avoid the mistakes I made.
* * *
Years before I knew anything about game, when I was just a young and dumb detinennui32, I was right in the middle of my college career. I was between sophomore and junior years at an average sized university and approaching my 20th birthday. I was living in an apartment with three other guys, working a desk job in a dorm during the summer and taking a couple of summer classes to get ahead on college credits.
My First College Girlfriend had broken up with me about two months before. I had taken it very hard. I begged FCG not to break up with me but, of course, she did so anyway. I nursed the pain with a couple of flings. I was in a dry spell but managing.
I met Summer at the desk job. (We’ll just call her Summer because that’s when I knew her.) Summer was also working there, taking classes and living at the dorm I was working at. She was a year older than I was, going into her senior year. Summer was average looking, a decent 5. She was bright, funny, engaging and outgoing. She was always hanging around, talking with me and whoever else happened to be at the desk. She was a runner, so she was always around in cute shorts. She had taken up running to lose some weight, which she had lost a few months before. Summer also liked tanning and would often lay out on her fold up chaise lounge.
Whenever I was there, she was too. We talked about things unimportant and crucial, trivial and deep. Politics, future plans, family foibles, the small towns we came from, term papers, professors, past loves. We talked about our siblings and parents. She said she wanted to get married eventually but didn’t want to wait for years after college. She told me not to cut my hair short because she liked it the way it was even though it was thinning out. I told her about my flameout with First College Girlfriend (huge mistake. if you’re talking to a girl you might be interested in, don’t talk about your nasty breakups.) Summer didn’t seem to have had a lot of dating experience, being a pretty serious student in college. She wanted to meet guys but she was overlooked a lot because she wasn’t one of the really pretty ones, she said. She was busy trying to finish up and graduate so she could start working and paying off her student loans.
I liked her OK and we went on a date or two. A movie, getting dinner on Sunday nights when there were no meals at her dorm. Inexpensive stuff for poor college students. I took her out because I had no other prospects, but I secretly hoped to do better than her. After all, I thought, “She’s really nice. She’s funny, interesting and bright, and seems to be into me, but I think I can do better than average.” So I was aloof most of the time. I didn’t care what happened with Summer. I didn’t see her every day, just maybe three or four times a week, and usually at work.
So after we had had a few dates, one night I was working the desk late. Summer and I were talking as usual, for probably an hour or two. When I was getting ready to walk home Summer surprised me by pulling me into a private place in the basement of her dorm. She said “I really like you.” She pulled me in and kissed me for a second. I returned it and we kissed for at least 15 seconds. I never invited her back to my place because my roommates were even worse with women than I was and were always there, and besides, it was a dirty bachelor pad. We couldn’t go to her room because of her roommate. We really had nowhere to be alone together. So after a few more nuzzlings and kisses, I said good night and headed home.
My birthday came right before we went back to school. She set up a date and picked me up at my place after supper. I got in her car and insisted on knowing where we were going. She kept telling me ”It’s a surprise.” We rode up and down the rolling hills, from interstate to two-lane hightway, conversation and hand holding all the way.
After about 100 miles, we were at Summer’s hometown. We drove past her high school. She told me about her high school and what activities she had done there (student council, chorus, pom pon girl, cheerleading, etc.) We went to her dad’s house (her parents were divorced). Her dad wasn’t home; we were alone. She showed me around. I saw pictures of her siblings. We sat for a few minutes. She told me about her parents, their life history, her siblings. We made conversation a while longer. She kissed me.
I didn’t try to make any moves on her because, well, it was her dad’s house. And because despite her kissing me a week before, I couldn’t really see why Summer had brought me to her hometown, were 100 miles away from school, what she wanted to do there, or what she wanted to show me.
She said “I don’t know, I just wanted you to see where I came from. Thought it might be fun.”
After a little while longer, we hopped in the car and drove back to school. She dropped me off at my place and kissed me good night.
Within a week it was time to return to school for fall semester. I moved into my dorm, Summer moved into hers. She invited me over as soon as we got settled. We watched a little TV. To make a long story short, I was up for sex, and tried to make a go at it. We were kissing a lot. This was the first time things had gotten hot and heavy. Things were moving quickly. Summer stopped me, and said “I’m not ready to do this yet.” So I scaled myself back, and we kept kissing, with both of us returning to willing participation. After a time, it was getting late. We said our good nights and I went back to my dorm.
After that I didn’t return her calls because, well, I thought I was wasting time. My immature 20 year-old mind and body were getting more and more sexually frustrated. I might wait for above average, but not for average. First College Girlfriend was hotter than Summer and FCG didn’t make me wait. If Summer wasn’t going to give it up after knowing me about 4 months, I wasn’t going to wait any longer.
I never saw her again despite the fact that we were on campus for a year together. Then, she would not return my phone calls.
Epilogue: My entire junior year was one long dry spell. That was the most difficult year of the four college years. In my senior year I met another girl, a solid 8. I would be with her for the next four years. This “solid 8″ brought me more unhappiness, misery and frustration than any other woman I had ever known before or since. I stayed with her because I believed I had no other options. I broke up with the 8 because I just couldn’t take it anymore and it wasn’t worth it.
Summer had a happy and successful ending. I heard from friends she graduated on time. When she was about 23, Summer married a guy from her hometown, and they’re still together, I hear.
Moral of The Story: There are several morals to this story, actually. You’ll have noticed them if you were paying attention. Some of them have to do with Summer’s character and conduct. Some of the morals relate to my mistakes with her. After all, we’re trying to improve our lots with women and learn how to build successful, satisfying relationships.
Summer was a gem. I let her get away when I didn’t have to, and she was mine for the asking.
The lessons to take away:
1. Focus on what you have, not what you don’t have. I had — and pushed away– a perfectly good 5 who was with me and who wanted to be there. I was hoping for something better but nothing was on the horizon. Focus on the ones in your field of vision, not on the ones you can’t see or the hypotheticals.
2. Think long term. A man will be happier, more content, and more at peace with a 5 who loves him than with an 8 who does not.
3. For Pete’s sake, learn the IOIs. Summer was practically smacking me in the face with IOIs. She wasn’t just tingling — she was humming like a tuning fork. Hanging out with me. Volunteering personal information about her family. Driving me 100 miles, alone, to her hometown and showing me the home she grew up in. At the time I seriously didn’t know why she took me there. The last thing a woman surrenders to a man is her trust, and Summer was handing it to me on a silver platter. (When a young woman invites a man to the home of her youth, to be alone with him, and to show him intimate details of her life, not only is she interested in him, she trusts him.)
4. Be patient, and don’t give up so easily. In the fall, Summer wasn’t ready to have sex. It was only the second time we had been alone together in private. But if I had only waited and been patient a short time, her comfort level would have increased and she might have been ready. She didn’t say “I don’t want this” or “I’m not going to do that”. Notice what she said: “I’m not ready to do this yet.” That signals possible future willingness. In this case I’m willing to believe what she said, particularly since she had been completely honest to that point. I figured out only too late that Summer would have been well worth the wait — and she would have been in for the duration.
5. Address and deal with the oneitis. In my mind and heart, First College Girlfriend loomed over this entire episode. I was still smarting from FCG and hoping Summer would make it feel better. When FCG left, I should have let her go completely. Men, when it’s over, let them go and move on. Another one will come. Summer showed up only a couple of months after FCG.
6. Aloof and indifferent works. It built up Summer’s attraction. It made her feel that I wasn’t chasing her hard, at least at first. After the attraction was built, the continued aloofness allowed her to settle into comfort. The aloofness caused her to qualify herself to me.
I knew Summer only about 4 or 5 months. Yet few women I’ve ever known have made such an impression on me. Looking back on it and applying what I know now about the dynamics of sexual relationships, now I know why I can still remember this young woman. What did Summer do right?
1. She implicitly understood what made her valuable in the sexual market place. Looking back, I can see Summer knew she wasn’t drop-dead gorgeous, and that she knew she never would be. She did most of the things she could have done to improve her appearance. She dressed well but modestly. She exercised and kept her weight down. She wore tastefully applied makeup. She could have selected a more attractive hairstyle, but the style she had was always put together. What she lacked in physical appeal she more than made up for in a sparkling personality, feminine charm, smiling, and an optimistic attitude.
Summer knew how to be sexy. A woman does not have to be an 8 or above to be sexy. She projected a bearing and demeanor that was demure and chaste, yet outgoing and so damn feminine I could see the estrogen dripping off her. I have never met another woman before or since who was able to pull this off, but Summer did so masterfully and it was irresistibly attractive. I have no idea how she knew to do this at the young age of 21, nor can I fathom why no one else ever recognized it before I did. She did not chase men hard. She wasn’t about to give up her body to a man unless he showed he was in for the long haul. And she made clear she did not want to put off marriage indefinitely while she worked. She wanted to get married soon after college, and did so.
2. She played it straight. Summer was honest. She saw a man she was interested in and clearly selected him. She did more than was comfortable for her, took some risks, and put herself out there by initiating physical contact and demonstrating trust. There wasn’t a fitness test in sight. No games. No manipulation. No overwrought emotional melodrama. No hard-to-get. Just honesty, kindness and display of a pleasant personality.
3. She was feminine. Summer used her feminine charms wisely. She was all woman, and didn’t try to be a man in a woman’s body. She was pleasant. She dressed like a young woman. She was kind. She smiled a lot. She didn’t complain or grouse about her life. She made the most of her physical appearance. She didn’t try to compete with me. She had nothing to prove except her interest in me and that she might be a suitable mate.
4. She refused to let others use or manipulate her. Summer went as far as she wanted to go sexually, and no farther. When it got uncomfortable, she said so, yet welcomed the contact she wanted. She made it clear what she wanted and why. She was savvy enough to see a possible pump & dump coming. When I didn’t return her phone calls, she had the self-respect to walk away, forget about me, and not try to get me to stay with her by using sex.
5. She identified what she wanted from her relationships and directed her efforts to that. Summer knew that eventually she wanted a husband and a family. She wasn’t about to waste time on the carousel. Nor was she going to spend time dating a guy who just wanted to get her into bed for a while and wasn’t really interested in anything more. Nor was she willing to pursue a guy who wasn’t all that interested in her or who gave up too easily.
Men, read this story and take it to heart. Don’t let your Summers get away from you.
Susan:
There’s enormous value in the story itself – it’s compelling, entertaining, and poignant. There’s also a treasure trove of information for women in Detinennui32′s list of the things Summer did right. I feel nothing but respect for her, and I am in awe of her strength and self-discipline. She does seem like a rare catch.
Here are my additional observations, from the female perspective:
1. Don’t expect mature behavior from an immature male. Detinennui32 was very young. Even a man of good character is going to make some major errors when he’s 20. The drive toward sex may cloud his judgment in ways that won’t be clear right away.
I suspect Summer knew exactly why D didn’t call her back. Her feelings would have been hurt, because she would have felt like she was not worth waiting for. Which is, of course, exactly what D thought.
2. Summer’s strategy was a good one. Summer is probably not thinking of D as “the one that got away.” Summer knew what she wanted, and she didn’t compromise her values to get it. When D tried to get in touch with her later, she did not speak to him. She had disqualified him as a man unworthy of her time. She moved on and found a man worthy of her. That is, a man who appreciated her charms and attributes while he had her.
3. Women can only do their best with what they’ve got. Summer wasn’t a beauty. Some might say she overestimated her market value, going after a guy who can get 8s. What she lacked in cover girl looks, though, she made up for in a lot of different ways.
When you like a guy who you suspect is out of your league, don’t shrink back. Summer and D were quite compatible, they talked for hours on end. She had every reason to take her shot, and I give her credit for acting on her feelings. I’ve seen some rather unlikely pairings – by definition they happen only if the better looking half of the couple is attracted to more than looks.
Just be careful that sex is not the only attraction. D would only have “lowered his standards” if sex was offered.
4. Don’t be the in-between girl. Summer knew D’s relationship history, and she knew he was bummed. That made him a very, very risky prospect. He would have likely been interested in sex without becoming emotionally entangled. If you’re into a guy who’s just gotten out of a relationship, I recommend taking it very slow. In Summer’s case, six months had passed since FCG broke D’s heart, but it obviously wasn’t enough time. Don’t go all in until the coast is clear.
5. Be careful with guys who are aloof. Of course there’s an element of challenge, you want to be the girl who gets through. Some guys come around, others don’t. If he is emotionally available and cares about you, he’ll show you. If he generally acts like he can take it or leave it, let his actions speak for him. Don’t wait around hoping he gets more invested. Don’t waste your youth and beauty on indifferent men.
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Oh dear.
On a lighter note, the ladies will love this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJsQcnB6GC0
Haha. Oops. Somehow that popped up twice. Anyhow, that’s a great video!
I can tell you as one of the persons who lived through this long ago in a college town far, far away, Susan’s comments are spot on.
I suspect that to Summer, I am a guy she used to know in college, and that’s probably the nicest thing she can say.
I was running light aloof game on Summer, and I didn’t even know it. I was taking her out a few times, hanging out together, and I liked her just fine; but I honestly didn’t care what happened with her until it was too late.
Girls like Summer who don’t get lots of male attention don’t need hard game. A man should not run hardcore a**hole game on girls like this. If he does, she concludes he really is an a**hole and dumps him, or her spirit is completely crushed.
I know it sounds self serving, but I only went total cad at the end.
Summer was attractive. I wasn’t slumming it. Ladies, listen to me: She just had that SOMETHING. It was not just smiling, it was smiling AT ME every time she first saw me. She was so much fun to be around. When she left the desk she had this way of looking back over her shoulder back at me and tilting her head down with a faint Mona Lisa type smile. She had a pleasant, almost lilting voice. I never heard vulgarity, sarcasm or abrasiveness. She was a joy to talk to. When she held my hand she did this thing where she would rub her thumb lightly on my index finger. She had this way of walking. She had this way of looking at me. Even the way she slung a backpack over her shoulder made my blood run hot with testonsterone. I can remember these things, and I can see them and hear them in my mind’s eye and ear but I can’t even describe it. I’ve never met another woman who could project feminine charm like that.
The 8 was luck, and not worth it.
“Driving me 100 miles, alone, to her hometown and showing me the home she grew up in. ”
That’s creepy.
It’s a good story and example.
One point I would add to is that, also for guys, it isn’t a great idea to get involved with someone until you are over the last one. It’s true that a part of this is avoiding one-itis, but every breakup needs time to recover from, even if one is going about that intentionally. I tend to think the 6-months mark is a good rule of thumb, but it may vary depending on the specific facts of what happened and how deep the wound is. When you’re still nursing a wound, it’s not great to get involved with someone else, because you’re much more inclined to make the kind of comparisons described here than you would be once you are really “over” someone.
Another point is that when you’re 20, opportunity cost is going to look and feel very different from when you are 30 or 40. It’s true now, in retrospect, that the hotter women you were getting were “lucky strikes”, but at 20 you’re not really going to know that. I think it’s very easy to make the wrong opportunity cost calculation at that age, especially under the circumstances described here.
In all, things worked out here as they should have done. Had you called her back and progressed in the relationship, you probably still would have been looking over your shoulder thinking if you could “do better”. Maybe that would have worn off, and maybe it would not have — you were 20, after all, and your own opportunity cost calculus was off, from the long-term perspective, but from the short-term data you had it may not have been.
I think more than few of us have “the one who got away”. In my case it was a girl in HS who loved me to death, whereas I only “liked” her. She didn’t compare objectively well with my previous HS girlfriend, but she waited for that relationship to crash and then made her moves. In the end, it ended when we went to radically different locations for college, but although she would have been a much better prospect than the person I did marry years later, it would have been a bad relationship for her at the time, given where my head was at then. The relationship didn’t work, and it was *good* that it didn’t work, because it would have been bad for her, and wrong for me to continue it. Sometimes the ones that don’t work out don’t work out for a reason. You end up learning over the course of time, however.
Brendan: “In all, things worked out here as they should have done.”
Yes, they did. For everyone.
Brendan: “Another point is that when you’re 20, opportunity cost is going to look and feel very different from when you are 30 or 40. It’s true now, in retrospect, that the hotter women you were getting were “lucky strikes”, but at 20 you’re not really going to know that.”
That’s a great point. Generally a 20 year old man lacks maturity and perspective. Six months is an eternity when you are 20, and in my mind, it was time to escalate things with Summer. At 40, six months are gone before you know it, and it really isn’t that much time.
Staying with Summer would have been great for me, but not so much for her, for many reasons not limited to where I was emotionally at the time.
Great post, Detinennui. I don’t know how old you are now, or how long it took you to get to the place you are, but somewhere along the line you found some wisdom.
And your Summer was also wise, even back then.
Without meaning to offend the author, I have the impression that he was speaking from a position of relative scarcity, at least as a college student. For example, he indicates that his junior year was a dry spell. Is this coloring his perspective on Summer?
First, I certainly agree that it sounds like Summer was a gem. Her intelligence, self-respect, and self-discipline were impressive, especially given her age. What character! I think that if I were in the author’s shoes I would also regret passing her up in the long run. She had value well beyond sexual attraction.
At the same time, if a man so chooses, he can meet hundreds of girls over the years. Summers are rare, I’m not going to deny that. But surely one can meet two or three Summers out of several hundred women. The beat goes on. The day is not over. And good women are still walking the planet.
This is why men learn game – well, it’s one reason, anyway. We don’t want the loss of one good woman to spell painful, lifelong regret. We want to become attractive to women so we have lots of options. That way, when we realize we lost a really good catch, it will hurt, but the hurt won’t be deadly, because what we have now is not only more wisdom but also the power to implement that wisdom going forward. The loss of one girl only buttresses our hope that the next time we find a girl like her, we won’t lose out. Without game, we have the wisdom but not the power to do anything with it, and thus the memory of the lost Summer is crushing.
Additionally, the simple fact of the matter is that exceedingly few college men are qualified to choose their wives. There is much they are still learning – about themselves, about others, about women, about the world. It is stupid to expect them to make such a weighty decision. Game means it’s not left to the twenty year old version of ourselves to choose our lifelong mating prospects. And thank God. I don’t even want my present twenty five year old self to make that decision, because I am still learning. (I’ve started late in the game if anyone is wondering. By the rights my scarcity mentality should far exceed the author’s. However, I believe in our ability to improve, and to improve dramatically.)
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Is this actually good advice? It seems to me that all Summer got out of “not shrinking back” was investing time and feelings and then immediately getting dumped for not having sex when D wanted it. All of Summer and D’s “compatibility” was moot in the end.
Great post. The younger girls can learn a lot from this. Every man has some threshold of beauty before he’ll consider sex with you, and a somewhat higher threshold to consider you for a girlfriend, but femininity is what determines if you have long-term potential or not.
Listen girls, we know you’re going to get old, and women generally age worse than men. If we’re considering you for the long-term, we know your personality is going to be around a lot longer than your looks are. Detinennui32 was young with a short time horizon. A marriage minded man isn’t going to make the same mistake.
Is very interesting because I was some sort of Summer for a guy before I meet my hubby (the last Dominican man I was giving a chance to prove me wrong before thinking in outsourcing…he failed obviously) but for the longest time I though that maybe I was too strict and should had “fought” harder and give him more chances. I don’t think about that anymore, but is good to have this kind of things if I ever need to advice a younger woman, possibly my own daughter, about this. Never compromise is better to wait a little longer to get what you want than to gambled it up in one man, hoping he will change his mind for you. Great post!
Ah. Good story and morals.
And the not so pretty women have better character, for sure.
Is this a tale of regret? I don’t see any regret in the post. I only see a sensible woman and a boy who didn’t deserve her because they are both not ready for long term commitment. He didn’t want her. She doesn’t need him. This is a youthful experience that didn’t end with unnecessary tears, which is actually a good thing.
Leave it to Haley it pee in the cornflakes again. It sounds like this woman had her shit together. She married at 23 (hmm, just like my wife) and got what she wanted. Doesn’t seem like such a bad strategy now, huh?
I’ve said it before — you’ll never experience love if you can’t expose yourself to some amount of risk.
Second… they shared some good times together, but it didn’t go anywhere further. That doesn’t automatically render all the good times “moot”. Maybe she cried for months and burned voodoo dolls of him… but maybe she said “eh, he’s not for me” and forgot about him promptly. You’re approaching this (as usual), from the female-permavictim standpoint.
Jonny: I prefer to think of it now as a cautionary tale.
OTC: She most definitely had her shit together.
@Haley
Uh, yes. She walked away with her dignity intact and he although he was sadder, he also came away wiser. There’s a whole lot of people who can’t say that.
OfftheCuff,
Not necessarily. The guy’s quoted saying that he felt that he was “wasting his time” and that he could “do better than average”. While I think the advice was a good one (you have to take risks), because their “head-space” at that time was different, it kind of overrided their compatibility. Whether the good times were moot or not isn’t really the point.
Namae nanka,
I think taking that Freud quote and applying it to Summer driving him out to her home is a bit much.
—————–
Slightly OT, I’m not trying to start anything and make it all about women – it’s just a thought:
Reading this post, I can’t help but think of the other side of the coin, where men have resentment for women who didn’t give them the time of day when they were younger and have some sort of feeling of satisfaction or whatever when they see those same women years later and less attractive. In this story, people are easy on the guy (especially since he admited his mistakes), saying that he was immature at the time, had a different view of opportunity costs, and that he had sex on the brain so to speak.
But for women, the “tone” of discussion seems different. Perhaps due to their delusions about the SMV, but obviously they weren’t ready for long term commitment either. This is one of those things where I’m going to have to sit down and think about. Taking in all the factors, it’s alot to ponder.
Aunt Haley…”All of Summer and D’s “compatibility” was moot in the end”
Really? Is a relationship only of value if it turns permanant?
Aren’t there relationships you look back on fondly and are glad you had, even though you didn’t wind up with the person?
@Renee
I’ve been wondering when your off-topic point would be addressed. I rejected a lot of nice guys when I was younger, not because I didn’t like them, but because there was no freaking way I was going to settle down with ANYBODY at 20. I sort of resent being made to feel guilty about this.
The good ones are still my friends and, I’m happy to report, do much better with women these days.
OTC–
Clearly you have never been a woman who (1) doesn’t get much attention from guys, (2) has the unbelievably good fortune to meet a guy who is higher in SMV that you get along with really well, (3) who takes you out for some dates so you start to believe he must have some reciprocal interest, who then (4) goes completely MIA after you deny him sex the first time he goes for it. The likelihood that this girl shrugged and said, “Eh, he’s not for me” and promptly forgot him after what happened is probably zero. To believe otherwise is just the manhamster talking.
Fortunately for Summer, she had a spine of steel and was able to move on and get married not too long afterward.
@Aunt Haley
It was, but it could have gone the other way. Another man might have recognized her deep and real affection and felt more appreciative of it at the time. I have personal experience with this – I told my husband how I felt about him before we dated. He initially rejected me, then came around a few months later. It’s a long story, and one I’ve told before, but the point is that if I hadn’t said what I needed to say, we would never have gotten together. Also, even though it didn’t go the way I wanted at first, I found the experience very freeing. I was not ashamed of having expressed my feelings, I actually felt empowered by the experience. Disappointed yes, but not sorry I’d spoken up.
@Jonny
I don’t think detinennui is clinically depressed or anything, but he does wistfully refer to Summer as “the one that got away” and exhorts young men not to make the same mistake. So yes, I think that sounds like regret. Although you’re right that it was bad timing, as Brendan also pointed out.
The point of the post is to learn from the story. I certainly did not make these particular mistakes again. I wrote it and asked Susan and Badger to publish it in the sincere hope that a young man out there will get with the program and realize what he has. Or maybe a wavering, insecure woman will read it and her spine will stiffen a little. Or maybe a resolute woman will read it and not give it up to a man who does not deserve her. Or maybe still others can learn what made Summer so feminine and do those things herself.
In this particular case, the questions of villain and victim were settled long ago.
Dude, after Summer freaked out about sex, did you attempt any anti-LMR techniques?
Anyways, you obviously know that you waited a bit too long to attempt escalation, so by then Summer may have implicitly friendzoned you. I honestly think you did the right thing to cut ties with her.
This really goes to the root of why men learn game: so they will never again let one girl affect them.
Haley, I’m an average guy, so as for point #1, that that means I get about 1/10000th the sexual interest that you or Summer does. And I’m in decent shape with a flat belly and with decent upper-body strength. (Thank you, Game! I never what I was trivially capable of!)
As for 2-4, you are reading into the story what you want to believe, which is the most maximally negative possible reading, rather than what Deti is actually stating. Who knows if Summer was even a virgin? Maybe she was more experienced than him, and decided to place him on the “you have to wait” list. We don’t know. Team Woman, Go!
What’s more likely? I’d bet you a box of donuts that if we found Summer we’d find out she lived through the experience, grew, enjoyed some parts, was disappointed at others, rather than came within an inch of suicide at the hands of Cruel, Cruel, upmarket cad Deti. That horrible cad who waited four months before making a move, instead of four hours.
Deti, well done, again.
OTC: I know this isn’t a religious blog, but let me put it this way.
God causes all things to work together for our good, for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.
Things like this have ways of working themselves out. Call it faith. Call it karma. Call it coincidence. We can call it whatever we wish. It all worked itself out in the fullness of time and space. It worked out for Summer and for me. Had she and I stayed together, we might not have met our respective spouses or led the lives we were called and intended to lead.
And I’m not even upmarket.
@Matt T: I’ve told as much of the story as necessary to illustrate the points I wanted to make.
And another thing:
Most girls fall into the average 4-6 range physically. And they get constant and terribly debilitating messages from the MSM that if they are not drop dead gorgeous and a size 0, they have less worth, a sharply reduced ability to attract men, and that the men they can attract are less desirable.
Maybe some of them will read this and realize that the MSM is lying to them. Maybe some of them will realize that there are things they can do to bump up their attractiveness. Maybe they’ll realize they, too, can be sexy. Maybe they’ll realize they can attract a decent man and get married if that’s what they want. Maybe this will offer those girls a little hope.
I can tell you that the things Summer did made me sit up and take notice. And evidently it worked not just once, but at least twice.
I just googled “MSM” and I got this:
Link
I don’t think that’s what you meant. I still don’t know what MSM stands for.
Satisfying? To whom???
*Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.
@Anon
MSM = mainstream media
@Vae Victus
To me. All’s well that ends well. Lessons learned, happiness found. No bitterness, just productive introspection. And a bittersweet nostalgia for those we left behind.
*Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.
Susan, on a related note. I suggest looking at this site in your blog comments before: http://www.practicalpickup.com/.
The guy who runs the site and blog is actually a really good guy based on the stuff he’s written. Personally, I find Mystery/Style to have some really acidic ideas that both objectify women and are somewhat misogynistic.
He doesn’t talk about anti-lmr techniques, but more about caring about the girls needs and relating to the girl and understanding that they don’t feel comfortable, instead of trying to trick them into having sex (like through anti-lmr techniques).
This is his most recent post that I really like: http://www.practicalpickup.com/power-in-vulnerability.
It’s definitely a healthier view on women and becoming more attractive.
@Matt C
I really, really liked that article on vulnerability. That guy does seem great.
This is what I was saying to Haley – being vulnerable enough to tell a man I had feelings for him made me feel empowered. I was kinda proud of myself, just for putting it out there. Women do this rarely – I can only imagine that men must feel this way when they learn Game. Jesus Mahoney posting here lately certainly had that experience.
I hesitate to be a slight wet blanket on this true story of hope for average attractiveness girls.
They should have hope, but not for holding out until they can get a guy to do LTR > marriage who’s 3 SMV levels higher.
But I also want to be realistic.
If detinennui32 could attract and keep an 8 for a year, albeit a high negative drama one, even “by luck” as he says he has to be a greater beta 7, if not a lesser alpha male 8.
I get and completely agree that going down a notch or two in SMV to get a girl with a great personality who’s really, really into you is totally worth it, and I agree. Especially since the guys is maybe kidding himself about what his SMV really is. Though guys do that for a host of reasons a whole lot less than girls do. For one hugely important thing, girls who are less than very good girls can get sex, albeit what turns out to be fling or ons sex sometimes with guys three smv levels higher than themselves, and easily with guys two smv levels higher. They tend to self calibrate accordingly.
So yeah I could see he would have been better with Summer than chasing higher SMV girls if she was a 6, or certainly a 7, as opposed to the bitchy 8 who gave him all kinds of trouble for a year. (I wonder if she was cheating on the side.)
Personalities matter lots too for guys, or should, when they’re in the LTR > marriage market. But still in the larger cities there’s a huge field out there.
There’s a tendency for hotter girls to be bitchier, but it’s only a tendency. They definitely tend to be to guys they consider marginal for them. But a girl raised by a strong lesser alpha father say, can often be a good bet. In my experience. Even by a strong successful greater beta father.
So net I’m saying that going down 3 smv’s in a LTR from what you can get is overkill guys. One or two, may make sense, depending on the girl. But you can also find girls at your same SMV who are great, feminine, adoring girls. They do exist. My M exists.
You lost me right there. I get what you’re saying in theory, but not in practice. I’ve learned long ago that 10s and even 8s tend not to be better women. In fact they’re usually terrible people. But what do you think is going to happen once that 5 sees a 7 or an 8 respond to you positively? She’ll know you settled for her.
And she’ll hate you for it.
I take it back, this is actually really good advice when taken together. A woman has to earn her place in your life. The best way to do that is to know she can lose you. The effect this has on women is amazing. It literally turns the game in a 180 degree direction.
The one piece of advice you missed though is to be the best version of you, of the man you are. Build a life without women and eventually one will want to be a part of that life.
@ Michael of Charlotte
Yes. This is supremely important. You must have ambitions outside of women.
@ detinennui32 and Susan Walsh
I have a hypothesis. I can’t test it though, because I’m a man.
I believe that, thanks to feminist-mandated suppression of femininity in women, physical appearance has become more important for women in recent years. Since women are told to be like men, they have nothing to offer the average man except their bodies.
This also can explain why they dress sluttier than even their mothers did; since their personalities don’t offer anything that can’t be provided by a man, the only way they can show femininity is by flaunting their bodies in a rather graceless, ham-fisted way. This leads to the body-image issues we keep hearing about; only 8s through 10s can play this game. In the current feminist behavioral paradigm, 4s, 5s, and 6s aren’t even in the running.
Posts I made in Femininity vs. Feminism explain that a feminine demeanor can make a woman with some meat on her bones more attractive to men, much like how Game makes betas more attractive to women (though I also warned not to let oneself balloon out.)
I believe that feminine behavior, not more attempts to shame men and boys for liking hot women, will go a longer way toward fixing body image issues, which are, at heart, a lament that boys won’t be attracted to them, similar to the beta male argument that women only go for jerks.. With a behavioral adjustment, the average-looking women won’t be pulling men down left and right, but they will do better than before and finally get some male companionship.
Haha, for the most part I actually enjoy Entropy’s blog, but I blatantly disregard any advice he has on vulnerability. Girls don’t want a guy who shares his feelings, they want an alpha who may or may not share his feelings. There’s a difference.
Plus in my experience, if you share your faults with someone, they will use that knowledge against you whenever possible.
@ OTC:
Four months is worse than four hours. I can easily brush aside getting burned after four hours of my time. Not so much four months of emotional investment.
This post really hit close to home for me. I always feel like I’m the girl that guys make their mistakes with, realize it afterwards, and apply the lesson to some other lucky girl.
SayWhaat: better late than never.
@SayWhaat
Same here. It’s like those guys would put a big giant M on my forehead: “file as M for Marriage material. I’ll look it up for later, but have fun playing the field now.”
It can be disheartening, but in the end it worked best for everyone. Timing is key.
Same here. It’s like those guys would put a big giant M on my forehead: “file as M for Marriage material. I’ll look it up for later, but have fun playing the field now.”
If it makes both of you feel a lot better I was mostly chased by married older guys wanting to play the field with me “ewww”. Having the W “whore” in your forehead is not fun unless you are actually one. The truth is some people just have to spent certain amount of time attracting the wrong type. God is immortal and needs to have a laugh once in a while to keep things interesting. That is at least I used to tell myself “somewhere someone is laughing at the irony of this situation”
“being vulnerable enough to tell a man I had feelings for him made me feel empowered. I was kinda proud of myself, just for putting it out there. Women do this rarely”
That’s true, but it’s also not. Young women seem to flip between “I’m not going to admit my feelings because that would give him power over me” and “I’m so in looove that I’m a victim of my emotions and if you reject me you’re a bad man for breaking my heart!”
The former is a system of denial that also leads to many women having casual sex they can’t handle.
As far as the latter, the price of a system in which we choose our own mates is that we might not be chosen. If he hasn’t been deceptive, he’s not responsible for your heartache. No one’s responsible. It sucks but that’s the end of it.
“This post really hit close to home for me. I always feel like I’m the girl that guys make their mistakes with, realize it afterwards, and apply the lesson to some other lucky girl.”
Better than an ex of mine – I broke her streak of dating guys who came out after dating her.
A little bit OT, but you know how I said earlier in the comments that looks have become more important due to the discouragement of femininity? Here’s a little bit of evidence from the comment thread on a blog post about Steampunk. I think this really says something:
Emphasis mine; I think I’m on to something here. Susan? Your opinion?
I’ve told this story before, but it’s relevant here. One young woman I know is very attractive and does not have casual sex. One man of similar attractiveness told her, “You’re a girl I would love to bring home to my mom. But right now I’m looking for a girl I don’t want my mom to know about.”
*Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.
Now THAT is amusing.
@CrisisEraDynamo
That’s fascinating – I’ve clipped the steampunk post and will look it over this weekend. I do think you’re onto something. I really like that Steampunk look – not for myself, obviously, but it is quite feminine and romantic.
Thanks, Susan.
Four months of something good that ends, is better than four years of nothing that never starts. I guess it’s matter of perspective.
Don’t forget Deti also got dumped by his FCG, and note zero lack of sympathy for that.
List of Citations re Condom Use and Alcohol in hookups:
1. Condoms were not used in 31% of participants’ most recent vaginal sex hookups. Given that more than 9 million new cases of STDs occur each year among 15- to 24-year-old Americans (Weinstock, Berman, & Cates, 2004), the high prevalence of unprotected oral and vaginal sex is a public health concern.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2932467/
2. Although many studies have found that men and women hook up at similar rates (e.g., Fielder & Carey, 2010; Owen et al., 2010; Paul et al., 2000), it appears that gender interacts with other predictors and consequences of hooking up. For instance, researchers have found women‟s alcohol use is a stronger predictor of engaging in casual sex and can influence their ability to negotiate or initiate condom use as compared to men(e.g., Owen & Fincham, 2010a; Scott-Sheldon et al., 2009). Moreover, Grello et al. (2006) found that men who were less psychologically distressed and women who were more psychologically distressed were both more likely to hook up, although research on this gender interaction has not always been replicated (e.g., Fielder & Carey, 2010; Owen et al., 2010).
The results demonstrated that alcohol use by gender significantly differentiated young adults who engaged in non-penetrative and penetrative hook ups from those who did not hook up over the course of the semester. Beyond previous hooking up behaviors, we also found that young adults‟ alcohol use was associated with engaging in non-penetrative and penetrative hook ups, which is consistent with prior studies (e.g., Grello et al., 2006; Paul et al., 2000). Moreover, young adults who engaged in penetrative hook ups reported the greatest alcohol use, with young adults who engaged in nonpenetrative hook ups reporting less alcohol use, and those who did not hook up reporting the least alcohol use. Exploration of physical intimacy may be normative for young adults; however, it appears that alcohol use increases the likelihood that the physical exploration will include penetrative encounters.
Conceptually, young adults‟ alcohol use may decrease inhibitions to approach potential partners, making hooking up more likely as well as influence their decisions to become more physically intimate. Alcohol use for women was a stronger predictor of engaging in hook up encounters (both non-penetrative and penetrative hook ups) as compared to men, which is consistent with previous research examining gender effects on the relationship between alcohol use and casual sex behaviors (e.g., Owen & Fincham, 2010a; Sheldon et al., 2009).
One possible explanation is that women may rely on alcohol more as a facilitative agent to engage in hook ups as compared to men.
http://www.chs.fsu.edu/~ffincham/papers/2010%20Owen%20Fincham%20Moore%20ASEB%2010-12-10%20FINAL.pdf
3. a. According to the American College Health Association National College Health Assessment for Spring 2009, of 953 FSU students surveyed, 19.9 percent of female respondents reported having unprotected sex during the last school year as a result of their own drinking. Furthermore, only 53.1 percent of sexually active students reported using a condom the last time they had vaginal sex.
b. The study, conducted by feminine hygiene company Femfresh, surveyed 3,000 women between the ages of 18 and 50. According to researchers, the average women reported 8 different sexual partners and was drunk with at least 5 of them. Four out of 10 have “always” been a bit tipsy when they have slept with a partner for the first time. Additionally, 48.5 percent said they preferred sex while under the influence.
http://www.theyetionline.com/news-community/survey-reveals-alarming-trends-in-sex-under-the-influence/
4. Promiscuity is unrelated with non-binge drinking but even more strongly related with binge drinking on multiple occasions. Results from a rudimentary instrumental variables strategy and accounting for whether sex is immediately preceded by alcohol use suggest that binge drinking directly leads to risky sex. Some binge drinking-induced promiscuity seems to occur among students, especially males, involved in long-term relationships.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15953
5. a. Almost 50% of unplanned sexual encounters are under the influence of alcohol.
b. 80% of first sexual experiences occur under the influence of alcohol.
c. By senior year, 81% of students have had sex because they were drunk.
d. College students who mix alcohol and sex report having more partners whom they know only “slightly” or “moderately.”
e. Alcohol impairment often leads to: not knowing your partner; not having a
condom available; not using a condom; or not using it correctly.
f. In two-thirds of unplanned pregnancies, the woman was intoxicated during sex.
g. 60% of STDs are transmitted when the partners are drunk.
http://www.stevenson.edu/SharedMedia/PDF/Wellness/college_sex_and_alcohol.pdf
6. Which women are more likely to have anal sex, multiple partners and an STD?
Within gender analyses showed that women binge drinkers engaged in anal sex at more than twice the rate of women who drank alcohol without binges (33.3% vs. 15.9%; p < 0.05) and 3 times the rate of women who abstained from alcohol (11.1%; p < 0.05). Having multiple sex partners was more than twice as common among women binge drinkers than women abstainers (40.5% vs. 16.8%; p < 0.05). Gonorrhea was nearly 5 times higher among women binge drinkers compared to women abstainers (10.6% vs. 2.2%; p < 0.05). The association between binge drinking and sexual behaviors/gonorrhea remained after controlling for drug use. Among men, rates of risky sexual behaviors/STDs were high, but did not differ by alcohol use.
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/which-women-are-more-likely-to-have-anal-sex?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bakadesuyo+%28Barking+up+the+wrong+tree%29
7. University of Maryland Researchers Identify Binge Drinking Genes
http://calorielab.com/news/2011/02/28/binge-drinking-genes/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+calorie-counter-news+(CalorieLab+Calorie+Counter+News)
@VD
Do you think that detinennui should have pursued a strategy of overcoming her LMR to get her into bed? Or did he do the “right” thing by leaving when she said she wasn’t ready to have sex? This is where we get tripped up on the ethics of Game.
CrisisEraDynamo:
Good thinking. The Steampunk look is pretty sexy because it leaves a few things to the imagination. Part of the sexy with Summer was that the intrigue of discovery, the mystery, the fact that I didn’t know everything or get to see everything right away. Things were left to the imagination. She never showed me everything. There is still much I don’t know and did not see, and that I will never know or see.
A couple of thoughts on your theory of physical appearance becoming more important: I think this is right. It’s actually an unintended consequence of feminism.
Women and men are around each other more than they used to be. Women are moving up and forward in their careers because feminism tells them they can’t depend on a man to help or support them. Those jobs transform women into harder personalities because they have to be to do those jobs. Those tougher personalities can be more repellent to men for a lot of reasons — it tends to de-feminize women; it tends to leave less time for men and relationships outside work.
And so to attract men, it does seem women started flaunting their bodies more. there are many reasons for this too, some cultural, some practical: 1. More celebrities pushing the envelope. 2. Clothing styles. 3. Ubiquity of porn. 4. The “You go grrrl” attitude that women can do, say and wear whatever they want, wherever and whenever they want, leading to 5. a gradual relaxation of social mores and coarsening of the culture and 6. the internet and social networking, which is destroying the usual boundaries of privacy we put up around our lives and allows more people to know more and see more about us and our families.
The practical reasons are that women are working more, have their own money, and have less time to spend on relationships. They feel they have to do something to differentiate themselves from other women.
You left out one thing: Hypergamy. In today’s market, all the women are competing for the alphas, that small group of men the women really want. They don’t feel they should have to get married to get an alpha, and feminism has told them that they can “have it all” and they must not settle for less than the absolute best. They’ve been told that a beta husband is boring and they can get a better one.
So they have to push the envelope to attract men — or they simply become promiscuous. It is as if they are all peeling more clothes off, becoming ever more outrageous and jockeying for position, so as to be noticed by the coveted alphas.
In previous years, hypergamy and its deleterious effects on ordered society were well understood. It was addressed and contained by women getting married early, entitling the wife to the marital benefit of a source of support. Its purpose was to keep her reasonably satisfied with one sex partner, preventing her from putting her husband in the sexual scale and finding him wanting because she had had better before. Then the marital contract was enforced with severe consequences for women who committed adultery.
By the same token, the man was expected to support his wife and not cheat on her either. In return for taking a wife he was presumed to have the marital benefit of a regular sex partner and good reason to believe that children born of the union were his. The purpose of that was to motivate him and keep him happy at home so he did not seek sexual satisfaction elsewhere. And if he did cheat on his wife, there were harsh consequences for his breach of the marital bond too.
Here’s the unintended consequence part: Feminism claimed to be about equalizing all opportunities for all women and improving women’s lives, so that they did not need men or the benefits of the above contract. Witness the unintended side effect: Feminism has coarsened the culture to the point that as a rule, only the extremely attractive women or those who put out before marriage get the guys. Now many women believe they HAVE to have sex before they are ready, or he’ll move on to someone who will give him what he wants.
And after years of being told they aren’t wanted or needed, men simply shrug their shoulders and conclude (1) MGTOW or (2) I’ll take the sex and leave the rest.
+1
This also explains why so many women go into free fall, SMV wise, after their mid twenties. Once their looks fade a bit, they really do start to resemble men and that’s a huge turn off. But the ones who are more feminine remain attractive, and an attractive woman in her 30′s can practically write her own ticket.
Crisis:
4s through 6s can get sex, but not commitment. If a 4 wants sex, she can usually find a willing man. It’s just that she won’t get commitment.
Roissy has written on this extensively.
Women have the trump card of sex. They decide when and on what terms sex will happen.
Men have the trump card of commitment. They decide when and on what terms commitment will happen.
When women give up sex without commitment, men withhold commitment.
And why should a man give his commitment (responsibiliity, money, resources) to a woman who has given sex to many men before him? What assurances does he have that she will stay with him?
@ detinennui32
I already knew about the details of hypergamy and the role of the marriage contract in keeping society together. I was just offering an explanation as to why, despite feminism, women still want to look hot, as well as offering an explanation for body image issues among women, based on my own experience. You are very correct; the promotion of casual sex has only amplified the effect I mentioned, since sex involves physical attraction.
@ jj
Good point. I never thought about it that way.
@ detinennui32
Regarding 4s through 6s getting sex, my point still stands. Lacking femininity, what do they have to offer, other than their bodies, that a man cannot get from another man?
detinennui32: if I recall correctly, you are married. How does this Summer compare with your wife?
Citations regarding the link between testosterone levels and promiscuity in women:
1. Lust is driven by testosterone. Romantic love is driven by dopamine. The two hormones trigger one another. – Helen Fisher
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/12/hookinguprealities/sex-is-chemistry-and-its-never-casual/
2. Testosterone in women: Fast, assertive, focused, masculine, forceful seducer, aggressive, unfeeling; has no time for cuddling.
Vasopressin in women: Secretive, background, subtle aggressive male energies; brother to testosterone, brother to oxytocin (makes you want to connect in an aggressive male way).
Louann Brizendine
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/08/18/relationshipstrategies/biology-drives-gender/
3. The broad-based personality traits known as the ‘Big Five’ differentially relate to features of risky sexuality across cultures. Low levels of agreeableness and low levels of conscientiousness are universally associated with relationship infidelity across cultures. Sexual promiscuity relates weakly to these traits as well, but is more highly related to extraversion across many, but not all, world regions. Both forms of risky sexual behaviour are generally unrelated to neuroticism and openness across cultures. The predicted personality–sexuality correlations are most strongly evident in Western cultures
http://www.bradley.edu/academics/las/psy/facstaff/schmitt/documents/Schmitt-2004.EJPers-B5RiskySex.pdf
4. Hare Psychopathy Checklist
Psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the PCL-R,[43] which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point (0, 1, 2) scale according to two factors. PCL-R Factor 2 is associated with behavioral deficits or antisocial lifestyle,[44] more specifically: reactive anger, anxiety, increased risk of suicide, criminality, and impulsive violence.
PCL-R Factor 1, in contrast, is associated with personality deficits or aggressive narcissism,[45] more specifically: extraversion and positive affect. Factor 1, the so-called core personality traits of psychopathy, may even be beneficial for the psychopath (in terms of non‑deviant social functioning).
Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism
1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle
1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
5. Women cheat during ovulation due to a surge in testosterone
http://news.discovery.com/human/women-ovulation-hormones-behavior.html
6. Women with higher levels of circulation testosterone have more sexual thoughts, greater desire for sex, and higher levels of sexual activity (Morris et al. 1987: Persky et al. 1978). The androgens have long been associated with the male sex drive (Beach, 1948). Now there is also compelling evidence that libido, or sexual motivation, in women is dependent on androgens (Sherwin 1994:428).
http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/10lustattraction.pdf
7. Finger length due to higher exposure to prenatal testosterone
The findings are the latest in a growing body of research associating the difference in finger lengths with character traits such as sporting prowess, homosexuality, aggression, promiscuity, autism and vulnerability to depression.
A long ring finger is an indication that the developing heart, brain — and hands — were exposed to higher levels of the male hormone testosterone, while a long index finger is a marker of exposure to oestrogen, the female hormone. Personality traits such as aggressiveness and fertility, which are strongly linked to gender, were among the first to be studied in relation to finger length.
In 2000, scientists at the University of California, Berkeley, found that both men and women with index fingers of similar length to their ring fingers were more likely than average to be homosexual.This particular combination in finger lengths is at the “crossover” point for male and female hand shapes and near the middle of the spectrum of testosterone exposure.
This and other early reports caused surprise and some critics said they were little more accurate than palm-reading. Since then, however, the hormone-finger length link has become more widely accepted.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article641643.ece
I think that it’s hard for women, who’ve been raised to believe that femininity is demeaning, to accept that the lack of it is why they become ‘invisible’ to men. This is a transformation that I’ve seen take place among my female friends, most of whom are over 30 by now. It’s something that they complain about, and the single ones worry about. Most don’t want to accept that the reason that men don’t regard them in that way is because they don’t present themselves in that way. Like JJ stated, they really do start to resemble men, or hobbit gym teachers. Without their youth, they don’t have many other outward attributes that are attractive to men.
Crisis: I agree with all your points. I had hoped to amplify them and buttress them with more factual and theoretical support.
I agree that absent femininity, 4s through 6s have only their bodies to offer. And if they offer their bodies they can usually find men to take them up on it, even though sex is likely all they will be able to get.
One of this blog’s soapboxes is that that’s a pretty bad deal for women. I suspect Summer reached the same conclusion long before she ever met me.
I also agree that a feminine 5 is infinitely sexier and more attractive than a caustic, abrasive, constantly fitness testing 8. I have deeply personal experience with this.
Anonymous 10>27 am:
All things considered, Mrs. detinennui32 was a 6 in the SMP when I met her. Mrs. d. was more conventionally good looking but had less feminine charm. Summer was less conventionally good looking but was so feminine (kind, optimistic, pleasant mien and bearing, flirty but not too forward and overt) that estrogen exuded from every pore.
Jamie,
Exactly. Sometimes I wonder do people actually advise women to settle down when they simply don’t want to? When I was at college the last thing I was thinking about was marriage and kids. And no I wasn’t off having sex either. The way I see it, it’ll happen when or if it happens.
detinennui32,
I touched on this before, and I kind of understand this reasoning based on what type of fidelity is important to men and women (physical and emotional). But there’s one question that hasn’t been directly answered. Is a woman less likely to be loyal in a LTR if she has a high partner count and is that unique to women only? Or is the risk the same for both sexes, it’s just that the risk is not as much of an issue for women. That’s what I’m thinking.
Here is the most significant part of the story:
He’s assuming that he would have been happy with a girl he didn’t really care about if he had gone along with her fantasy of who he might be.
If you ask me, that’s a huge S-T-R-E-T-C-H.
I’m not also not falling for the popular mythology that says hot-looking are nastier than plain women.
Assuming that because a woman is nice in the beginning that she will still be nice in six months, three years or six years down the line is a big mistake.
Typos. FML.
Do you think that detinennui should have pursued a strategy of overcoming her LMR to get her into bed? Or did he do the “right” thing by leaving when she said she wasn’t ready to have sex? This is where we get tripped up on the ethics of Game.Susan, it sounds as if you think that anti-LMR strategies such as plowing, freeze-out, reframing, etc, are guaranteed success. They’re not. At every stage in the seduction process, you’re more likely to fail than succeed.
But it’s never wrong to try. That’s all you’re doing: trying. I really don’t see what’s unethical about it.
Mike C emailed me this comment because he can’t get onto my site at work. I thought it was worth sharing.
I am literally tearing my hair out at some of the inane comments about the “economic benefits” such as increased revenue to testing clinics. The main function of the economy is an improved standard of living, all the dollars is just accounting. Labor, capital, money directed towards the effects of promiscuity is labor, capital, money that could have gone elsewhere to raise productivity or perhaps fund some new thing that benefits all of society across the board, not just the STD ridden,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
@Matt T
You’re walking a fine line. There may not be anything unethical about it. But I wonder if you think that when a woman says “No” that should be respected at any point. When is it time to say OK, pick up your ball and go home for the day? It was clear that Detinennui disliked her decision but respected it. He then made his own choice not to spend any more time with her. Would it have been a better outcome if he had persuaded her to have sex against her better judgment? To take her V-card, knowing she had reservations, and then proceed to probably dump her?
This, this is what gets women really, really upset about Game. Take your shot, and take no for an answer. Don’t try to “glam” us with techniques designed to make us feel shitty about ourselves, both tonight and in the morning.
Yea, I disagree with you Matt. To me it seems very unethical. If your goal with a girl is purely physical (you want to get off) and you freeze her out when she gives you LMR, what you’re doing is giving her false hope: the idea that if she puts out, you’ll give her the emotional care she’s craving. And maybe you’ll reward her with it that night, but seems to me, most PUA’s are going to be out gaming other girls the morning after. So yea, that seems unethical.
Of course, I don’t have respect for any girl who’s going to put out to a player to win his approval, but it still seems unethical to me.
Sometimes I wonder do people actually advise women to settle down when they simply don’t want to?
We will stop if only women that didn’t wanted to settle down young didn’t spent a lot of time whining about “no good men left” or “Men need to man up” or “sad because they don’t have a family” after they reach certain, if women just make a choice and kept themselves committed to it for better or worse, I’m pretty sure no one will be saying anything to the younger ones. The thing is that many women assume that the moment they feel like having it all they will just snap their fingers and it will happen. This is a cautionary warning, if you spent your peak fertility years not wanting a serious commitment don’t think that once this years had passed you will be able to have a serious commitment on command. That is not how things work.
Thus is not to “force women to make choices they don’t want to” we are just telling them what feminism forgot to tell: that you can’t have it all and once you make a choice be sure to be informed of all the good and bad.
That is all. The moment women stop whining you will see this advices disheartening.
About virgins
Even when I was all about getting the notch, I still avoided virgins unless I saw LTR potential in them.
About LMR & Game
Is using game to get pass LMR unethical if it’s natural? Game as practiced by PUAs had nothing to teach me about LMR. Even when I was a clueless teenager, I was a natural at thwarting LMR. It’s in my instincts.
If the girl is giving token resistance, I don’t see using game as being unethical at all.
If it’s genuine resistance, then maybe we can argue that game is unethical.
@Stephanie
I disagree. Marrying young would have been a huge mistake. I wasn’t out screwing around, I was doing my own thing. I lived on the road for 2 years working at ski resorts in the winter and dude ranches in the summer and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything, least of all a husband, house and a minivan.
It’s probably a bit different where you come from (Dominican Republic, right?) but here in LA, nobody gets married before 25. I don’t expect to snap my fingers and “have it all” but I don’t think I wasted my peak fertility years. I cultivated a better version of myself, saw the country, did thing I’d always wanted to do. If I had gotten married at 20, I would have felt trapped. I’m learning now that I will never again have the kind of energy that I had back then and I’m glad I didn’t waste it.
If I get to be 30 and there really are no good men left, I can always get a cat.
@ Renee
Agreed.
Matt T: LMR = last minute resistance?
YEah, we’d been dating a few months. As I wrote at Badger’s, my thinking was “we’ve dated some, we like each other pretty well, now it’s sexytime”. She didn’t see it that way at that time.
Couldn’t just plow. That’s pretty damn dangerous these days. That comes too close to sexual assault. You have to make sure in this day and age you have a willing partner. “I’m not ready to do this yet” was pretty clear. Summer’s clear message was “I’ll go this far, and no farther”. Had to stick with that at the time.
Gentle coaxing is one thing. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead is quite another. If I had plowed ahead, I could have risked a false rape charge. It was a college campus when PC and radical feminism were getting underway.
Freezeout wouldn’t have worked. Nor would reframe.
What on earth is Plowing?
Please tell me it’s not what it sounds like.
I tried googling it, but I only found PUA forums with creeps talking about how they banged skanky girls they picked up in clubs.
Marrying young would have been a huge mistake. I wasn’t out screwing around, I was doing my own thing. I lived on the road for 2 years working at ski resorts in the winter and dude ranches in the summer and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything, least of all a husband, house and a minivan.
Do you know that you could had taken the road with your husband and have as much fun with him right? Why this limited definition of marriage? I had a lot of fun with my girlfriends while single but I could be having the same amount of fun with my now hubby (or even more) the only difference is that I will be having sex with just one man so I think that is the main argument against early marriage “only one sex partner” and given that I didn’t had any interest on having many sex partners well that want’s a lost.
It’s probably a bit different where you come from (Dominican Republic, right?) but here in LA, nobody gets married before 25
And you have to do what everyone else does, because??? Also in my country we don’t have pressures for marrying at any age. But people that don’t marry don’t whine about it, if they are miserable they are polite enough to keep it to themselves and not look for outside forces to blame for their choices. BIG difference here. Of course people here whine about everything so maybe is a cultural thing.
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If I get to be 30 and there really are no good men left, I can always get a cat.
And that will be lovely just don’t whine about men not manning up to please your need of companionship needs after you are not longer on the peak of your fertility years. That is pretty much the problem, USA is filled with women roaring and miserable because they are not married after certain age and blaming men for not wanting them for long time company, if they just enjoy their cats and single life no one will be telling “marry before the bitterness sink in”, please?
@VI
I like this. It sounds about right to me.
Re: token resistance vs genuine resistance
Rookie question
How do you know the difference?
@jamie
I think plowing just means pressuring her hard. As Detinennui said, he would have risked a “false rape charge.” So no, not rape, if that’s what you were thinking.
@ OTC:
It is a matter of perspective, although I would question whether this situation was “good” for Summer. I’m 99% certain she was brokenhearted and took quite some time to get over it. I’m glad she fared well in the end.
So what? We don’t know the reasons behind the dumping. Maybe he cheated on her. Maybe she was just a bitch. We don’t know, so we can’t say, therefore no sympathy.
It seems like he knows who he is now, and it seems to me like he’s recognized that the person he is now would have been well off with a woman like Summer.
Oh, fantastic, I’m sooo happy to be one of the girls to provide this valuable service to men.
-__-
Susan, I can’t get on your blog at work too. (Not your fault, someone listed it as a sex site.)
Makes for catching up on all these comments at the end of the day quite arduous!
Firstly, I didn’t have a husband, so why not? I had a car, gas money and a job offer in Colorado, so I went. If I had a husband, he might have still been in school or had a real job or a kid from a previous marriage or some other thing preventing him from going. There was literally nothing tying me down. I may never have that kind of freedom again.
Marriage requires at least one other person besides yourself. Besides, nobody was asking. Because people here don’t marry young unless they’re Mormon. And I’m not miserable being single, it’s a marital status, not a disease.
What Renee and I were getting at, was the practice of former nice-guys-turned-PUAs who being resentful towards the girls who rejected them when they were younger (before they had “game”). I was one of those girls and I want it understood that it wasn’t because I was pursuing alphas, I rejected them because I was young and immature. They didn’t want to marry me either. They wanted me to be their girlfriend and have lots of sex with them, which would have been tricky since we all went to community college and lived with our parents. And anyway, the chemistry wasn’t there or maybe they were “too nice” as all these PUAs claim, but the bottom line is that I valued their friendship and didn’t want to take it to the next level. After all, it’s not my job to make sure all nice guys get laid.
I’m glad your marriage is awesome, really, congratulations. But keep in mind that marriage isn’t a priority for everyone.
Firstly, I didn’t have a husband, so why not? I had a car, gas money and a job offer in Colorado, so I went. If I had a husband, he might have still been in school or had a real job or a kid from a previous marriage or some other thing preventing him from going. There was literally nothing tying me down. I may never have that kind of freedom again.
Or your hubby could had taken vacations to take the road with you. One of my married friend couples always go to Burning Man and they bring their kid with them. Marriage =/= lack of freedom.
After all, it’s not my job to make sure all nice guys get laid.
ITA. And is not the men’s job to make sure all women that didn’t wanted to get married and have children before, get married later in life. Is all we are saying here. You have the right to reject as many guys that you want to, but they also have the right to reject you in turn.
The issue is that many women don’t accept that and when they are done traveling and be “free” grow as bitter as the guys were in their youth, is all we are saying here. Rejection is a two way street and once you are not longer young you will have less guys to reject. Again I really hope you are the happiest single woman in the face of earth, but if you are not…accept that it was YOUR choice and no one else is to blame but you, capisce?
There is a huge difference between going on a road trip and living by your wits with all your belongings in the trunk of your car. Couples do the seasonal work circuit too, but it’s hard because you can’t have kids or pets or mortgages or elderly parents or…basically any responsibilities whatsoever. Besides, it’s more fun for single people.
I agree. But most of my peers aren’t married yet either, so it’s safe to say I’m still in the running.
I wish there were a less un-kind word than “rejection” because I didn’t completely reject those guys. The good ones are still my friends, in fact, I’m hanging out with one later tonight. I think he’s fantastic and we have a great time together, I just don’t want to see his penis. As for the bad ones, the “nice guys” who tried to gain my trust by being my friend, as soon as it was clear that I had no intention of sexing them ever, I never heard from them again.
There is a huge difference between going on a road trip and living by your wits with all your belongings in the trunk of your car. Couples do the seasonal work circuit too, but it’s hard because you can’t have kids or pets or mortgages or elderly parents or…basically any responsibilities whatsoever. Besides, it’s more fun for single people.
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2009/03/22/saving-money-on-a-road-trip-with-kids/
I don’t want to mess with you, I really don’t. I just want to illustrate the point that marriage =/= dead of everything you hold dear and fun, but adding people you love to the things you already love. We got a saying that “sad moments shared are smaller but happy moments shared are bigger”.
I think the media is selling to much the fabulous single life, marriage and kids can be fabulous too. There is less alcohol and sex and is true you have to plan more, but there are many new things that can be as fun as those, YMMV.
I’m not trying to fight either, I’m just saying that you can NOT have kids and work seasonal jobs. Kids have to go to school and stuff and they’re not allowed to live in employee housing, it’s not my opinion, it’s company policy.
As for road trips with kids: F*** THAT
There aren’t enough pokemon in the world to make a 7 year old happy in the backseat of a hot car for 6 days. (I know because I remember) When I have kids, it’s going to be all about disneyland, camping trips and water parks.
As for the bad ones, the “nice guys” who tried to gain my trust by being my friend, as soon as it was clear that I had no intention of sexing them ever, I never heard from them again.
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Jamie,
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If a guy is romantically/sexually interested in you, and you make it clear it isn’t going there, why does that make them a “bad” guy if they don’t want any further relationship with you at all. Honestly, that is pretty ridiculous. That said, many guys don’t know how to effectively communicate this interest off the bat or be upfront about it. Chalk that up to the fucked up cultural and societal programming many guys got growing up.
And anyway, the chemistry wasn’t there or maybe they were “too nice” as all these PUAs claim, but the bottom line is that I valued their friendship and didn’t want to take it to the next level. After all, it’s not my job to make sure all nice guys get laid.
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Cmon now. Don’t bullshit. The reason you didn’t want to “take it to the next level” isn’t because you “valued their friendship”. It was because you were not sexually attracted to them. Now thats perfectly fine. If the attraction isn’t there, it isn’t there and you can’t and shouldn’t force it. But I think where many guys, especially “nice” guys get frustrated and annoyed is with this code speak where one reason is stated while the real reason is something entirely different.
I mean, women trick, dupe, and lead men on all the time, so it’s only fair that men should try to do the same. Don’t hate the player (playette?), hate the game.
Regardless, there’s a difference between a woman giving token resistance by saying “no”, and giving actual resistance by saying “stop”. Guys can figure it out.
Finally, I kinda lol’d at the word “glam”. We’re dudes trying to get laid, not vampires.
Susan, I can’t get on your blog at work too. (Not your fault, someone listed it as a sex site.)
Makes for catching up on all these comments at the end of the day quite arduous!
Websense? That is what we are running. Just happened recently…last month or so. Whats funny is there a bunch of other blogs that still pass through some of which almost boggles my mind considering this one is blocked.
Yeah, that’s my point. All the anti-LMR tricks you see in the seduction manuals are long-shots and last-ditch attempts. I mean, I attempted a freeze once and it misfired pretty badly.
@Matt T
Nope, not buying it. I don’t believe in collective guilty. You’re going to cause a lot of collateral damage that way.
I beg to differ. No = stop and Stop = no.
Haha, yeah, I was thinking of Jessica glamming Hoyt on True Blood last week.
Re: token resistance vs genuine resistance
Rookie question
How do you know the difference?
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Tone of voice, language used. Firmly and matter of factly is absolutely genuine and means you better fucking stop right away. Flightly and flirtatiously is often to allow the hamster to create plausible deniability that “it just happened”. My own personal experience is with false token resistance, many women will go into their high pitch girly girl voice. It is tough. As a guy, you have to escalate, but you MUST stop at firm boundaries. This nonsense about something like “May I touch your breast now and please sign on the dotted line” is so asinine because it completely ignores the reality of human sexuality and male-female attraction. All that said, when you are in the moment, you know, and if you don’t or unsure you absolutely stop.
Regardless, there’s a difference between a woman giving token resistance by saying “no”, and giving actual resistance by saying “stop”. Guys can figure it out.
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I beg to differ. No = stop and Stop = no.
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Susan, I’m going to disagree with you and agree with Matt T, because my personal experience absolutely supports this. I remember one girl who said “no, we can’t do this” and then after 15-30 more minutes of foreplay she was telling me to stick it in. Stop definitely means go no further.
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And people, please, maybe I’m nitpicking, but there is me and there is Matt C. People keep conflating the two of us in their responses attributing to him stuff I said and vice versa.
And that will be lovely just don’t whine about men not manning up to please your need of companionship needs after you are not longer on the peak of your fertility years. That is pretty much the problem, USA is filled with women roaring and miserable because they are not married after certain age and blaming men for not wanting them for long time company, if they just enjoy their cats and single life no one will be telling “marry before the bitterness sink in”, please?
Here is JUST one among many
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/13/opinion/13dowd.html
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She has actually tackled this subject a number of times in writing. I wish she would just STFU already. She literally is the quintessential example of everything a man DOES not want in a mate/partner.
But I wonder if you think that when a woman says “No” that should be respected at any point. When is it time to say OK, pick up your ball and go home for the day?
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Addendum to my last comment that addresses this. The girl in question….I knew she was highly promiscuous because she was a regular at the bar, and I knew 2 other bouncers who had had sex with her so in her case, I knew the initial “No, we can’t do this” was probably total bullshit. I know Susan we are dancing on a very fine line here, but you’ve admitted yourself you know of many young women who are slutty putting on the innocent act. So it is likely a guy is going to run up into some of this false token resistance whose purpose is to make plausible 24 hours later the “it just happened”. Again, a firm matter of fact “NO, I am NOT having sex with you tonight” means you pick up your ball and go home.
Just happened recently…last month or so.
The same thing happened with Athol (marriedmansexlife) and he is very PG13…I smell conspiracy.
She has actually tackled this subject a number of times in writing. I wish she would just STFU already. She literally is the quintessential example of everything a man DOES not want in a mate/partner.
I know I know. Really this is all we want, you are free to make a choice but if that doesn’t work please would you just write about something else? like “the proper care of multiple cats” and/or “new technology in sex toys” “Christmas for one”, “The fabulous trips I did, for the last 20 years…” , “the joys of dinning alone in the tastiest restaurants” can you find the positive in living a lonely lifestyle by choice instead of blaming everyone. Please?
I know I know. Really this is all we want, you are free to make a choice but if that doesn’t work please would you just write about something else? like “the proper care of multiple cats” and/or “new technology in sex toys” “Christmas for one”, “The fabulous trips I did, for the last 20 years…” , “the joys of dinning alone in the tastiest restaurants” can you find the positive in living a lonely lifestyle by choice instead of blaming everyone. Please?
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Exactly! That is the part I find almost maddening. It’s like, look, you wanted to become a certain type of woman, lead a certain type of life, prioritize certain things, have a certain demeanor. Great, seriously, great, more power to you. God bless you. But you know what. Most guys don’t want that…they don’t want a woman like you so just keep on leading the life you’ve chosen, that you’ve been the ideologue for, and stop complaining that us guys don’t want to date or marry you.
There’s “Stop!” and there’s “stooop it…” <- I'm not quite sure how to present that in writing.
Mike C brought up tone of voice and language. I'll add body tension. If she freezes right up, it's a clear no. If the body still feels soft & inviting, she's saying "wait, I'm warming up".
And then there are crazies like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za7jQ1s1BV0&feature=related
Who are surprisingly not that rare…
@Mike C
eh…it wasn’t like that. At the time, my best friend was a straight dude. I’m aware of how rare that is and I can already hear the naysayers saying, “no…he was just trying to fuck you.” But we had an open dialogue on the subject and really, it wasn’t like that, it was purely platonic. Anyway, I spent a lot of time hanging out with his friends, a bunch of nerdy dudes who liked video games too much and were awkward around girls. They were mostly cool with me, let me be “one of the guys.” It was fun. I cultivated an appreciation for toilet humor and provided a female perspective. Sometimes one of the boys got a crush, but my best friend usually tipped me off. It was known that I was getting over a bad breakup and wanted to be single and most of the boys respected that.
If a guy pretends to be my friend and then puts the moves on me, doesn’t get what he wants and then never speaks to me again….well, I’d say I made the right choice don’t you think?
That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.
One thing I have noticed, the common denominator among guys who can handle platonic relationships with women is: A good relationship with his mother. Usually, they’re guys raised by single moms.
@ Jamie
When most men approach women, it’s because of sexual attraction. If they don’t get what they want, it annoys them. Mind you, if the woman shares common interests with the man, a friendship can continue, but there will be that element of sexual tension, like delectable food placed in front of him just out of reach.
What you said here is actually very perceptive. It all comes down to a variation of what I said before about romance: what can a woman bring to the friendship that another man cannot bring? Since most men are attracted to women, they wouldn’t be seeking women for platonic friendships in the first place; they’d be sticking with men. After all, there’s no sexual tension there to complicate things.
This also explains why gay men are often platonic friends with women; there’s no sexual tension.
No one’s trying to guilt trip any of you, they’re trying to warn you about the possible consequences of waiting to marry which in the current SMP range from not marrying at all to having a much harder time due to male disenfranchisement and awareness of “the slut marrying in late/in her 30s” phenomenon (and before someone gets her panties in a bunch no, i’m not saying you’re sluts, just that men make it harder on all women due to sluts).
Do you think that detinennui should have pursued a strategy of overcoming her LMR to get her into bed? Or did he do the “right” thing by leaving when she said she wasn’t ready to have sex? This is where we get tripped up on the ethics of Game.
He did the right thing by leaving. The ethical player harbors tremendous respect for women who genuinely possess traditional sexual morals precisely because they are so rare. In my predatory days, I went on two first dates with two very religious, very pretty women who were friends and who knew perfectly well what I was like. Both very good, decent women who ended up in happy marriages to strong Christian men with ludicrously beautiful children. There was little chemistry with one, with the other, it was made perfectly clear that complete reformation was required before anything went anywhere. Which it didn’t, since I was a committed and inveterate predator.
To be honest, few alphas are going to waste any time attempting to overcome genuine resistance, based on the abundance principle. Sigmas might, but then, they are prone to fetishes and don’t really count. Since learning Game primarily concerns synthesizing alpha behavior, it’s clear that respecting genuine resistance and moving on is the correct strategy for all sub-alphas.
Also, I applaud Summer’s strategy. She did everything right. Doing everything right doesn’t mean everything will work out every time, timing is a very important aspect of marriage. This is why women are well-served to focus on men 2-7 years older if they wish to marry.
No harm there, he is just a friend
And here is where it falls apart, you assume that if a guy departed after you didn’t have sex he was just faking it, men want sex from the women they’re attracted to/interested in, why should a man looking for more than friendship with you (meaning LTR or Marriage not just sex) stay if you don’t want to go beyond that? that’s how male orbiters are made and how men loose many of their chances.
That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.
The main reason for this is that women are not attracted to most men, whereas men are at least somewhat attracted to most women. Most men are “sexual blanks” to most women, so there isn’t the same degree of interference being run on the female side of the ledger as there is on the male side of the ledger. It’s a big hassle to be friends with a woman to whom you are sexually attracted yet with whom you are not sexually involved — it’s just one big pain in the ass in numerous ways. Guys *can* be platonic friends with women to whom they are not attracted. It’s just that men are somewhat attracted to *most* women (not equally attracted to all, but somewhat attracted to most), so platonic relationships with most of them are troublesome.
@Mike C
Re the Maureen Dowd piece, I thought this was interesting:
It’s not that men don’t want to talk to their partners, or want stupid partners, it’s that they want feminine partners. If they recoil from highly charged ambitious women, that may have more to do with the woman’s demeanor or priorities than the fact that she is successful.
The cruel hoax is that women believe their career credentials are either sexy, or that their success intimidates men. Neither is true.
@Mike C
I don’t disagree. I know for a fact that many women will say no to convince the guy she is girlfriend material rather than a slut. Of course he offers reassurance that he respects her, and she’s peeling off her panties. Like you said, her manner will dictate what she’s really feeling, but it is important for men to know that they ultimately cannot disregard what she’s saying if she doesn’t change her mind.
Marrying young would have been a huge mistake. I wasn’t out screwing around, I was doing my own thing. I lived on the road for 2 years working at ski resorts in the winter and dude ranches in the summer and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything, least of all a husband, house and a minivan.
That’s because you are young, ignorant, and immature. Only a young fool, of either sex, with no experience of family life and children, would be dumb enough to think one will value a few years of life experience over genuine love and joy.
I have played in a rock band and heard my own music on radio stations and in clubs around the world. I have partied in glamorous places with famous and pretty people everywhere from London to Tokyo. I once had a village throw a festival in my honor complete with a long-winded presentation from the mayor. I’ve been to inaugural balls and I’ve been to jail. I’ve raced Porsches and inadvertently blown up classic roadsters. Every experience was interesting and unforgettable.
And I would trade all of them in a heartbeat for the chance to relive any of a hundred happy days spent with my wife and children. You simply do not know whereof you speak.
Only a young fool, of either sex, with no experience of family life and children, would be dumb enough to think one will value a few years of life experience over genuine love and joy.
Ah, but without that life experience for themselves, how will they be able to truly appreciate the difference? It can be very easy to look back in hindsight to make the comparison, but youth requires its own experience.
Many people don’t experience genuine love and joy because they themselves don’t know how to accept or give it in return. They experienced flawed models from family and friends. Or they didn’t experience it at all. Allowing oneself to truly love another may require preparation: time, experience and maturation.
Spending time building experiences getting to know what life is like in other places, meeting others, failing at relationships—these are all things that can help open the pathway. It can be very prudent to take the time needed.
The Dowd article quotes this article: “Women, by contrast, did not show a marked difference in their attraction to men who might work above or below them. ”
Does this study show that women didn’t exhibit hypergamy? Seems odd.
Ah, but without that life experience for themselves, how will they be able to truly appreciate the difference?
“Smart people learn from their mistakes. But the wise ones learn from the mistakes of others.”
I understand your POV but I really think American society is waaay to focus in “experience things in order to learn” to an unhealthy point. Do you need to try drugs in order to know they are bad for you? Or jump in front of a car to know you might die? Is not necessary to do everything in order to understand/enjoy life.
Nowadays info about the consequences of many personal choices, is so abundant that there is really no reason to make mistakes. And yet here people glorify mistakes. The point of learning from mistakes is not to repeat it. If you see 20 girls jumping in a pool and drowning, shouldn’t your mind tell you not to jump?
Now I totally see that if a person never had a happy family life or/and the media tells you that you have to have a family in certain way, then of course you might think that you need to delay this part of your life. But IME you can adapt your family life to your personal style not the other way around. I mean I went to a concert where one of the numbers was having the kids (6 and 8) playing a simple guitar number. I saw the mother giving them juice at the end and then all of them hoping in the van to get on the road again to the next gig. People loved the kids playing and they are all having a nice rock band family life.
It was one of the best things I had ever seen in stage, YMMV.
Does this study show that women didn’t exhibit hypergamy? Seems odd.
Is because this are hypothetical questions. Women lie about this all the time. But once an inferior starts to try to pick them up they don’t respond and blame it in not having chemistry.
Never trust what a woman says but what she does.
A right way to measure this would be a survey of marriage couple by income of partners and see what they actually did.
@ Jamie:
“That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.”
A commenter at the Solomon II blog had a great retort to this, and it became part of one of Susan’s posts on what the men of HUS say about women. It’s crass, but it’s succinctly reflective of the way most men view “friendships” with women:
“If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”
Ladies, I’m really sorry for how direct this is. Here’s the way a man looks at this issue. “if I’m approaching you or spending time with you, it’s not because I’m intrigued by your opinions on the Obama presidency or your deep thoughts about the Luxembourgian economy. It’s because I’m sexually interested in you. You have passed the boner test. You make my blood run hot. I want to have sex with you. Now. And if you aren’t sexually interested in me, it’s not so much that I’m annoyed or bothered, it’s just that anything more done with you, for you, to you or around you is a waste of my time and effort. If you don’t want me, then I want to spend my time finding someone who does.
“And assuming it’s true a woman wants to be a real friend (which is questionable), that’s great for her. She gets a beta orbiter and an emotional tampon. But what do I get? A lot of sexual frustration and chumpitude. I’m humiliated in front of everyone because I’ve been LJBF’d.”
“If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”
So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?
That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard. And a really good argument in favor of lesbianism.
I’ve had friendships with women that I actually enjoyed and wasn’t pursuing sex with them.
Thanks Bb, for making my point. Even then, I knew I needed to take my time. And really, I’m kinder and wiser now than when I was 20. I’m less selfish now than I was then, you’d be making a better choice in picking the 25-year-old version of Jamie even if she is 10 pounds heavier.
Unless what detinennui said is true and my mind is worthless, then I guess I should just throw myself off a bridge before I get crows feet.
Hit the treadmill before it becomes an habit to gain 10 pounds every 5 years.
@Jamie and @Bb
Read this post about Ladder theory for men.
You can be friends with a guy as long as you are in the third ladder http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ladder-theory-for-men/
That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard. And a really good argument in favor of lesbianism.
I’m curious…do you have any info on whether lesbians stick around and stay friends with girls that they really only wanted to have sex with?
Myself, I definitely agree with the ‘sex now or sex later’ statement…IF that was the initial reason for the relationship. Some female coworkers and such have managed to make it into my group of friends, but I have no interest spending time with someone if my only interest in them is a relationship or sex, and I cut off the relationship accordingly when I realize that isn’t going to happen.
I’ve had the situation be reversed on me with marriage. I personally don’t want to get married, but I’ve dated girls long-term who have. Once I made it clear to them that I wasn’t interested, they packed up and left because they wanted marriage; not a long term partnership, not FWB, not being friendly, only toward the end-goal of marriage. And I don’t hold it against them; I wasn’t what they wanted and they have every right to pursue what they want. I wish them well.
@ CrisisEraDynamo
A good woman friend can validate you to other women, particularly if she can pass for your cousin or childhood friend and especially if she’s a lesbian or unattractive. It shows that you value women for more than sexual relationships and that you respect women, that you listen. One of the sexiest things a man can do is speak highly of his sisters.
By gaining a better understanding of women, you will have better success with them.
Jamie: you are misrepresenting and deliberately misconstruing what I said so that you can be outraged and offended. We’ll get to her opinions. First I want to find out if she is interested. If so, great. If not, I will move on. I never said a woman’s mind is useless and you know it.
@Yohami
You’re a tool.
maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.
@ Jamie and Bb
Why be offended at the very idea that men are sexually attracted to women, and that men would approach women because of this desire? This kind of shaming is the reason most of the male posters here, myself included, dislike feminism.
Like I said before, they could get platonic friendship from men and save themselves the sexual frustration. Platonic friendships with women are possible, but few men approach women for this reason and it would be foolish to expect otherwise.
Male attraction works differently from female attraction; men would consider many women (rakishness), but women would consider few men (hypergamy.) You cannot view male desire from the point of view of female desire.
Another revealing statement. Generally speaking, women view non-Alpha men as sexual blanks. While most wouldn’t become lesbians, they would be offended by a constant parade of betas trying to get with them.
@ Jamie
The above answer was a response to your “lesbianism” post. Your “respect women” post wasn’t up when I hit “Submit Comment.”
maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.
You know how many modern women dump a guy after the first date or five minutes in interaction because they “didn’t felt it” for him?
Also every single of this guys had tried this at some point and only got the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” or the infamous “Let’s just be friends”. I really think there is only a minority of women that actually can get a guy that is into the friend box (or ladder) and into the boyfriend/sex box.
Maybe you are that type. How many times had you fallen for a friend?
So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?
Give me some reasons why I should befriend a woman I am not attracted to over a man. Good reasons.
maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.
Studies have shown that the opposite is true.
This is an interesting piece on it: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html. I don’t exactly know how to interpret it, but it does show that attraction manifested physically (vagina getting wet) vs. mental are mutually separate. Whereas for men, they are one and the same. What you said is true for men, but not for women.
http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mind-reading-the-researchers-who-analyzed-all-the-porn-on-the-internet/. This study is REALLY interesting.
Also, jamie, can you be friends with men you are very attracted to WITHOUT ever wanting to be more than friends?
@ CrisisEraDynamo
I was addressing you directly, suggesting a useful purpose for a platonic female friend. But yeah, this format makes keeping up with the discussion a little confusing.
@ Jamie re: “respect women” post
Initially, your answer to my question rubbed me the wrong way, but then I thought about it: yes, having female friends can show that I am good LTR (long-term relationship) material and not a pump-and-dump cad. That being said, I would still need Game and I must not emasculate myself if I do want a relationship. Despite the best efforts of feminists, sexual attraction to women isn’t a crime.
Now let me ask you something. Don’t take this as a personal attack: I understand that “respect women” is the modern code word for “be chivalrous.” However, is there something comparable for women today? Are women taught to respect men as a group?
HA.
I once encountered a discussion about gender (online) and a woman introduced the topic of chivalry. Her comment was promptly followed by several others where women made lists of all the things they expected men to do for them – ‘expected’ being the operative word here. These were things like holding doors open, pulling out chairs, paying for dates, etc. Again, this is what these women believed men were supposed to do for women – period.
Imagine any man sitting around presuming to make a list of this nature.
Now I made the point to these ladies that I, at least, was nobody’s butler, that my chivalry is my gift to offer or to withhold as I please, and that if I was going to offer a woman this sort of care, it was going to be on my terms and for my reasons. I wondered what dignified sort of treatment the women there believed men were entitled to receive from them simply by virtue of being male.
I was told that the gift men give women is chivalry… and the gift women give men… is to accept that chivalry.
Talk about leading privileged lives.
Talk about leading privileged lives.
Well the other half of the female population call this passive misogynism and will answer all this with insults and calling you out. What would you prefer?
@ David Casson
My suspicions exactly. Men are taught to respect women, but women are not taught to respect men.
I’m sorry, are you trying to intimidate me?
@CrisisEraDynamo
Sadly, no. I learned respect for men because my brother and I were very close when we were little and I was always sensitive to the unfairness of feminist rhetoric and society in general. (example, I was livid when he had to register for the draft, why should he be made to die in a war and not me?) Sure there are a lot of double standards for women, but there are probably just as many for men these days that nobody seems to give a crap about.
Girls aren’t taught manners anymore, the idea of a girl going to finishing school is laughable, so if your mother was a feminist, you probably have a crass streak a mile wide. I once read a story about a boy who held the door for a girl in college, only to get kicked in the shin. What the hell? That is so rude. But here is this girl thinking she’s making a point, but really she’s just being an asshole. Why do people think it’s ok that some girls are conditioned to think this way?
I don’t know what we’re going to do about it. Personally, I try to lead by example, say “thank you” when ANYONE does something nice for me even if it’s their job, give up my seat for old people on the bus, etc. It’s really all that you can do.
I’m sorry, are you trying to intimidate me?
??? Why would I do that? I’m asking a simple question.
Some manosphere bloggers complain about the opposite I was just wondering what you think is worst.
I have and I did want more, but I guess I’m just not his type. I’m certainly not going to hold it against him. He’s still hilarious and my favorite person to take on a camping trip.
@CrisisEraDynamo
thinking about it more, maybe the MRAs should organize a protest march. You could all buy bouquets of flowers and burn them.
@VD
Your testimonial about your life with Spacebunny and your children is one of the loveliest things I’ve ever read in support of marriage and family. Thank you for sharing it.
@Stephanie I’m well familiar with Badger’s ladder theory
@Detenennui, is your comment @ 2:49 applied only to initial attraction with women? Or to the relationship overall?
“Give me some reasons why I should befriend a woman I am not attracted to over a man. Good reasons.”
@Matt C., if you think that women are only good for sex, I can give you no good reason.
@ Jamie re: “respect for men” post
I didn’t think so.
Several times, I have thought: if women don’t respect men, why should I respect women? When I learned just how privileged women are in society, that all this feminist talk of “equality” was just a means of cutting down innocent men and destroying masculinity, I strongly fought the urge to become as nihilistic as Roissy, Ferdinand Bardamu, or the typical Spearhead commenter. I had to restrain myself from genuinely hating women. I had suffered no divorces, no cheating or cuckoldry, and no parental abuse, yet it still angered me to see women being artificially boosted by the government and the school system.
Realizing that I was in a better position than most men with regard to women, I resolved that I would do the following:
1) I wouldn’t pedestalize women. I would give people of either sex their due respect, but I would not be blind to their flaws as a sex, just as women aren’t blind to men’s flaws.
2) I would be unashamed of my sexual interest in women. If I share a common interest with a woman, I can be friends with her, even if she rejects me sexually or is unattractive but shares my interests. Rejecting someone for sex does not mean hating them. However, I will be honest with you: I will approach women largely because I’m interested in them sexually. If women are allowed to choose the men they find attractive, men are allowed to as well.
3) No one-itis. If a woman rejects me sexually, I stop trying with her and move on.
4) No taking disrespect from a woman. If I’m in a relationship with a woman and she is unwilling to do for me as I do for her, I will dump her like last week’s trash.
5) Expect femininity from a woman. Feminine women are much nicer for relationships, and it softens the effects of aging or slight weight gain. If I wanted a man, I’d be gay.
Though having female friends can help you with LTRs, the truth remains that platonic relationships with men lack sexual tension and frustration, and are thus easier to manage. There’s nothing wrong with having female friends, but there is something wrong with saying that his desire for women is an act of bigotry.
I apologize, Stephenie, I misunderstood you.
Well, the interesting thing about these women is that they were all Catholic. I was a Catholic myself until recently, and used to visit Catholic blogs routinely. There is often the expectation in those places that you will behave charitably toward one another. However, Christianity being what it is today, the word ‘charity’ is typically confused with other words like ‘nice’, ‘inoffensive’, ‘supplicating’, ‘compliant’. That’s not charity at all. That’s spinelessness. The distinction, I’m sad to say, is lost on most Catholics I’ve met, at least online.
For this reason, some of the most artfully manipulative, underhanded, passive aggressive remarks I have ever seen on the Internet have been typed by Catholic women. As much as this irritates me, I have to take my hat off to these ladies, because their verbals skills are outstanding. It is their business to create optical illusions of the mind, and they take their craft seriously. One woman wrote to me in the guise of a soft, plump, loving wife and mother, the kind you can imagine cheerfully baking gingerbread men with her adoring little children on a cold Saturday morning. What harm could such a woman do?
“No one suspects the butterfly…”
The point is that I was indeed insulted, just not openly. You know – I had mother issues, poor boy, they’d pray for me, hopefully Jesus would help me forgive my mom, hopefully Jesus would help me treat women with respect, hopefully I’d stop being such a problem.
Open insults or veiled insults… doesn’t matter to me, they’re still insults. And they’re designed to demoralize the opposition.
@Bb: “So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?”
No. It is more accurate to say that ONE measure of MY woman’s worth TO ME is her VALUE as a sex partner. A relationship with a valuable, attractive woman is sexual in nature.
It is ONE measure: one among many.
It is a measure I apply to women I am interested in or want.
It is personal to me.
It is her VALUE, her worth. Not her “utility” or usefulness. There’s a difference.
Bb: My comment at 2:49 applied to initial attraction. Of COURSE it does not apply to relationships with women overall or to my serious relationships.
The attitude expressed at 2:49 applies to the initial stages of attraction. If I’m attracted to her, I want to see if she is to me. If she is, let’s explore it. If she is not, anything more is a waste of my time.
@ Jamie:
“A good woman friend can validate you to other women, particularly if she can pass for your cousin or childhood friend and especially if she’s a lesbian or unattractive. It shows that you value women for more than sexual relationships and that you respect women, that you listen. One of the sexiest things a man can do is speak highly of his sisters.”
Jamie, with all due respect, this is silly. Any man who does this will be viewed by both men and women as either gay or a first class chump. You’re advocating pedestalization.
Also, there are few things that demonstrate lower value than a straight man hanging around lesbians or unattractive women.
I used to believe as you do. I used to do exactly what you’re talking about. When I would approach women, they’d routinely say they thought I was gay because they always saw me with unattractive women and never on a date.
During the initial attraction stage, women are turned on by confidence and bearing, not by how respectful you are to women in general.
You said in one of your other comments that female attraction is more mental. Are you fitness testing us? That statement is laughable. Female attraction is based on the man’s confidence and presence, and whether the man makes her tingle. That’s it. It is not mental. There is a female physiological response which women many times describe as “butterflies” or a “tingle in my bottom” or just a “tingle”.
Sorry, Jamie, I don’t buy your arguments. The way you perceive life and male-female attraction is different from 99.9999999999% of everyone else I’ve ever heard.
Not all men are like that. [/turn their shit against them]
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