A Satisfying Tale of Regret

Today I’m pleased to feature a guest post by Detinennui32, a reader and commenter at HUS. I’ll give my take on this from a female perspective at the end. Be sure to check out Badger’s commentary as well – he’s running the post today here.

 

The One That Got Away

by Detinennui32

 
I’d like to tell a personal story. It has implications for relationships that don’t get explored much in the current SMP. There isn’t much about game in this story, but I submit there are many game lessons for men and women.   
 
This is a true story. I have changed names and obscured some details. I humbly offer this in the hopes of persuading you to avoid the mistakes I made.  
 
 *   *   * 
Years before I knew anything about game, when I was just a young and dumb detinennui32, I was right in the middle of my college career. I was between sophomore and junior years at an average sized university and approaching my 20th birthday. I was living in an apartment with three other guys, working a desk job in a dorm during the summer and taking a couple of summer classes to get ahead on college credits.  
 
My First College Girlfriend had broken up with me about two months before. I had taken it very hard. I begged FCG not to break up with me but, of course, she did so anyway. I nursed the pain with a couple of flings. I was in a dry spell but managing.
 
I met Summer at the desk job. (We’ll just call her Summer because that’s when I knew her.) Summer was also working there, taking classes and living at the dorm I was working at. She was a year older than I was, going into her senior year. Summer was average looking, a decent 5. She was bright, funny, engaging and outgoing. She was always hanging around, talking with me and whoever else happened to be at the desk. She was a runner, so she was always around in cute shorts. She had taken up running to lose some weight, which she had lost a few months before. Summer also liked tanning and would often lay out on her fold up chaise lounge.   
 
Whenever I was there, she was too. We talked about things unimportant and crucial, trivial and deep. Politics, future plans, family foibles, the small towns we came from, term papers, professors, past loves. We talked about our siblings and parents. She said she wanted to get married eventually but didn’t want to wait for years after college. She told me not to cut my hair short because she liked it the way it was even though it was thinning out. I told her about my flameout with First College Girlfriend (huge mistake.  if you’re talking to a girl you might be interested in, don’t talk about your nasty breakups.) Summer didn’t seem to have had a lot of dating experience, being a pretty serious student in college. She wanted to meet guys but she was overlooked a lot because she wasn’t one of the really pretty ones, she said. She was busy trying to finish up and graduate so she could start working and paying off her student loans.
 
I liked her OK and we went on a date or two. A movie, getting dinner on Sunday nights when there were no meals at her dorm. Inexpensive stuff for poor college students. I took her out because I had no other prospects, but I secretly hoped to do better than her. After all, I thought, “She’s really nice.  She’s funny, interesting and bright, and seems to be into me, but I think I can do better than average.” So I was aloof most of the time. I didn’t care what happened with Summer. I didn’t see her every day, just maybe three or four times a week, and usually at work.
 
So after we had had a few dates, one night I was working the desk late. Summer and I were talking as usual, for probably an hour or two. When I was getting ready to walk home Summer surprised me by pulling me into a private place in the basement of her dorm. She said “I really like you.” She pulled me in and kissed me for a second. I returned it and we kissed for at least 15 seconds. I never invited her back to my place because my roommates were even worse with women than I was and were always there, and besides, it was a dirty bachelor pad. We couldn’t go to her room because of her roommate. We really had nowhere to be alone together. So after a few more nuzzlings and kisses, I said good night and headed home. 
 
My birthday came right before we went back to school. She set up a date and picked me up at my place after supper. I got in her car and insisted on knowing where we were going.  She kept telling me ”It’s a surprise.” We rode up and down the rolling hills, from interstate to two-lane hightway, conversation and hand holding all the way.
 
After about 100 miles, we were at Summer’s hometown. We drove past her high school. She told me about her high school and what activities she had done there (student council, chorus, pom pon girl, cheerleading, etc.) We went to her dad’s house (her parents were divorced). Her dad wasn’t home; we were alone. She showed me around. I saw pictures of her siblings. We sat for a few minutes. She told me about her parents, their life history, her siblings. We made conversation a while longer. She kissed me. 
 
I didn’t try to make any moves on her because, well, it was her dad’s house. And because despite her kissing me a week before, I couldn’t really see why Summer had brought me to her hometown, were 100 miles away from school, what she wanted to do there, or what she wanted to show me. 
 
She said “I don’t know, I just wanted you to see where I came from. Thought it might be fun.”
 
After a little while longer, we hopped in the car and drove back to school. She dropped me off at my place and kissed me good night.  
 
Within a week it was time to return to school for fall semester. I moved into my dorm, Summer moved into hers. She invited me over as soon as we got settled.   We watched a little TV. To make a long story short, I was up for sex, and tried to make a go at it.  We were kissing a lot. This was the first time things had gotten hot and heavy. Things were moving quickly. Summer stopped me, and said “I’m not ready to do this yet.” So I scaled myself back, and we kept kissing, with both of us returning to willing participation. After a time, it was getting late. We said our good nights and I went back to my dorm. 
 
After that I didn’t return her calls because, well, I thought I was wasting time. My immature 20 year-old mind and body were getting more and more sexually frustrated. I might wait for above average, but not for average. First College Girlfriend was hotter than Summer and FCG didn’t make me wait. If Summer wasn’t going to give it up after knowing me about 4 months, I wasn’t going to wait any longer.   
 
I never saw her again despite the fact that we were on campus for a year together. Then, she would not return my phone calls. 
 
Epilogue:  My entire junior year was one long dry spell. That was the most difficult year of the four college years. In my senior year I met another girl, a solid 8. I would be with her for the next four years. This “solid 8″ brought me more unhappiness, misery and frustration than any other woman I had ever known before or since. I stayed with her because I believed I had no other options. I broke up with the 8 because I just couldn’t take it anymore and it wasn’t worth it. 
 
Summer had a happy and successful ending. I heard from friends she graduated on time. When she was about 23, Summer married a guy from her hometown, and they’re still together, I hear.
 
Moral of The Story: There are several morals to this story, actually. You’ll have noticed them if you were paying attention. Some of them have to do with Summer’s character and conduct. Some of the morals relate to my mistakes with her. After all, we’re trying to improve our lots with women and learn how to build successful, satisfying relationships. 
 
Summer was a gem. I let her get away when I didn’t have to, and she was mine for the asking. 
 
The lessons to take away:
 
1.     Focus on what you have, not what you don’t have. I had — and pushed away– a perfectly good 5 who was with me and who wanted to be there. I was hoping for something better but nothing was on the horizon. Focus on the ones in your field of vision, not on the ones you can’t see or the hypotheticals.
 
2.    Think long term. A man will be happier, more content, and more at peace with a 5 who loves him than with an 8 who does not.
 
3.     For Pete’s sake, learn the IOIs. Summer was practically smacking me in the face with IOIs. She wasn’t just tingling — she was humming like a tuning fork.  Hanging out with me. Volunteering personal information about her family. Driving me 100 miles, alone, to her hometown and showing me the home she grew up in.   At the time I seriously didn’t know why she took me there. The last thing a woman surrenders to a man is her trust, and Summer was handing it to me on a silver platter. (When a young woman invites a man to the home of her youth, to be alone with him, and to show him intimate details of her life, not only is she interested in him, she trusts him.)  
 
4.    Be patient, and don’t give up so easily. In the fall, Summer wasn’t ready to have sex. It was only the second time we had been alone together in private. But if I had only waited and been patient a short time, her comfort level would have increased and she might have been ready. She didn’t say “I don’t want this” or “I’m not going to do that”. Notice what she said:  “I’m not ready to do this yet.” That signals possible future willingness. In this case I’m willing to believe what she said, particularly since she had been completely honest to that point. I figured out only too late that Summer would have been well worth the wait — and she would have been in for the duration.
 
5.   Address and deal with the oneitis. In my mind and heart, First College Girlfriend loomed over this entire episode. I was still smarting from FCG and hoping Summer would make it feel better. When FCG left, I should have let her go completely. Men, when it’s over, let them go and move on. Another one will come. Summer showed up only a couple of months after FCG.  
 
6.   Aloof and indifferent works. It built up Summer’s attraction. It made her feel that I wasn’t chasing her hard, at least at first. After the attraction was built, the continued aloofness allowed her to settle into comfort.  The aloofness caused her to qualify herself to me.
 
I knew Summer only about 4 or 5 months. Yet few women I’ve ever known have made such an impression on me. Looking back on it and applying what I know now about the dynamics of sexual relationships, now I know why I can still remember this young woman. What did Summer do right?
 
1.    She implicitly understood what made her valuable in the sexual market place. Looking back, I can see Summer knew she wasn’t drop-dead gorgeous, and that she knew she never would be. She did most of the things she could have done to improve her appearance. She dressed well but modestly. She exercised and kept her weight down. She wore tastefully applied makeup. She could have selected a more attractive hairstyle, but the style she had was always put together. What she lacked in physical appeal she more than made up for in a sparkling personality, feminine charm, smiling, and an optimistic attitude.  
 
Summer knew how to be sexy. A woman does not have to be an 8 or above to be sexy. She projected a bearing and demeanor that was demure and chaste, yet outgoing and so damn feminine I could see the estrogen dripping off her. I have never met another woman before or since who was able to pull this off, but Summer did so masterfully and it was irresistibly attractive. I have no idea how she knew to do this at the young age of 21, nor can I fathom why no one else ever recognized it before I did. She did not chase men hard. She wasn’t about to give up her body to a man unless he showed he was in for the long haul. And she made clear she did not want to put off marriage indefinitely while she worked. She wanted to get married soon after college, and did so. 
 
2.     She played it straight. Summer was honest. She saw a man she was interested in and clearly selected him. She did more than was comfortable for her, took some risks, and put herself out there by initiating physical contact and demonstrating trust. There wasn’t a fitness test in sight. No games. No manipulation. No overwrought emotional melodrama. No hard-to-get. Just honesty, kindness and display of a pleasant personality. 
 
3.     She was feminine. Summer used her feminine charms wisely. She was all woman, and didn’t try to be a man in a woman’s body. She was pleasant. She dressed like a young woman. She was kind. She smiled a lot. She didn’t complain or grouse about her life. She made the most of her physical appearance. She didn’t try to compete with me. She had nothing to prove except her interest in me and that she might be a suitable mate. 
 
4.    She refused to let others use or manipulate her. Summer went as far as she wanted to go sexually, and no farther. When it got uncomfortable, she said so, yet welcomed the contact she wanted. She made it clear what she wanted and why. She was savvy enough to see a possible pump & dump coming. When I didn’t return her phone calls, she had the self-respect to walk away, forget about me, and not try to get me to stay with her by using sex. 
 
5.    She identified what she wanted from her relationships and directed her efforts to that. Summer knew that eventually she wanted a husband and a family. She wasn’t about to waste time on the carousel. Nor was she going to spend time dating a guy who just wanted to get her into bed for a while and wasn’t really interested in anything more. Nor was she willing to pursue a guy who wasn’t all that interested in her or who gave up too easily.
 
Men, read this story and take it to heart.  Don’t let your Summers get away from you.

 

Susan:

There’s enormous value in the story itself – it’s compelling, entertaining, and poignant. There’s also a treasure trove of information for women in Detinennui32′s list of the things Summer did right. I feel nothing but respect for her, and I am in awe of her strength and self-discipline. She does seem like a rare catch.

Here are my additional observations, from the female perspective:

 

1. Don’t expect mature behavior from an immature male. Detinennui32 was very young. Even a man of good character is going to make some major errors when he’s 20. The drive toward sex may cloud his judgment in ways that won’t be clear right away.

I suspect Summer knew exactly why D didn’t call her back. Her feelings would have been hurt, because she would have felt like she was not worth waiting for. Which is, of course, exactly what D thought.

2. Summer’s strategy was a good one. Summer is probably not thinking of D as “the one that got away.” Summer knew what she wanted, and she didn’t compromise her values to get it. When D tried to get in touch with her later, she did not speak to him. She had disqualified him as a man unworthy of her time. She moved on and found a man worthy of her. That is, a man who appreciated her charms and attributes while he had her.

3. Women can only do their best with what they’ve got. Summer wasn’t a beauty. Some might say she overestimated her market value, going after a guy who can get 8s. What she lacked in cover girl looks, though, she made up for in a lot of different ways.

When you like a guy who you suspect is out of your league, don’t shrink back. Summer and D were quite compatible, they talked for hours on end. She had every reason to take her shot, and I give her credit for acting on her feelings. I’ve seen some rather unlikely pairings – by definition they happen only if the better looking half of the couple is attracted to more than looks.

Just be careful that sex is not the only attraction. D would only have “lowered his standards” if sex was offered.

4. Don’t be the in-between girl. Summer knew D’s relationship history, and she knew he was bummed. That made him a very, very risky prospect. He would have likely been interested in sex without becoming emotionally entangled. If you’re into a guy who’s just gotten out of a relationship, I recommend taking it very slow. In Summer’s case, six months had passed since FCG broke D’s heart, but it obviously wasn’t enough time. Don’t go all in until the coast is clear.

5. Be careful with guys who are aloof. Of course there’s an element of challenge, you want to be the girl who gets through. Some guys come around, others don’t. If he is emotionally available and cares about you, he’ll show you. If he generally acts like he can take it or leave it, let his actions speak for him. Don’t wait around hoping he gets more invested. Don’t waste your youth and beauty on indifferent men.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • OhioStater

    Oh dear.

    On a lighter note, the ladies will love this:

  • OhioStater

    Haha. Oops. Somehow that popped up twice. Anyhow, that’s a great video!

  • detinennui32

    I can tell you as one of the persons who lived through this long ago in a college town far, far away, Susan’s comments are spot on.

    I suspect that to Summer, I am a guy she used to know in college, and that’s probably the nicest thing she can say.

    I was running light aloof game on Summer, and I didn’t even know it. I was taking her out a few times, hanging out together, and I liked her just fine; but I honestly didn’t care what happened with her until it was too late.

    Girls like Summer who don’t get lots of male attention don’t need hard game. A man should not run hardcore a**hole game on girls like this. If he does, she concludes he really is an a**hole and dumps him, or her spirit is completely crushed.

    I know it sounds self serving, but I only went total cad at the end.

    Summer was attractive. I wasn’t slumming it. Ladies, listen to me: She just had that SOMETHING. It was not just smiling, it was smiling AT ME every time she first saw me. She was so much fun to be around. When she left the desk she had this way of looking back over her shoulder back at me and tilting her head down with a faint Mona Lisa type smile. She had a pleasant, almost lilting voice. I never heard vulgarity, sarcasm or abrasiveness. She was a joy to talk to. When she held my hand she did this thing where she would rub her thumb lightly on my index finger. She had this way of walking. She had this way of looking at me. Even the way she slung a backpack over her shoulder made my blood run hot with testonsterone. I can remember these things, and I can see them and hear them in my mind’s eye and ear but I can’t even describe it. I’ve never met another woman who could project feminine charm like that.

    The 8 was luck, and not worth it.

  • namae nanka

    “American women are an anti-cultural phenomenon. They have nothing but conceit to make up for their sense of uselessness. You have a real rule of women in America. You young men go to college with girls, fall in love and marry at an age when the girls are usually much more mature than the men. They lead the men around by the nose, make fools of them, and the result is matriarchy. That is why marriage is so unsuccessful in America — that is why your divorce rate is so high. Your average American man approaches marriage without any experience at all. You wouldn’t expect a person to step up to an orchestra and play first fiddle without some training, but the American man steps into marriage without the least experience for so complicated a business. In Europe, things are different. Men take the lead. That is as it should be.”

    –Sigmund Freud, 1934

    In “Sigmund Freud” by Helen Walker Puner

    “Driving me 100 miles, alone, to her hometown and showing me the home she grew up in. ”

    That’s creepy.

  • Brendan

    It’s a good story and example.

    One point I would add to is that, also for guys, it isn’t a great idea to get involved with someone until you are over the last one. It’s true that a part of this is avoiding one-itis, but every breakup needs time to recover from, even if one is going about that intentionally. I tend to think the 6-months mark is a good rule of thumb, but it may vary depending on the specific facts of what happened and how deep the wound is. When you’re still nursing a wound, it’s not great to get involved with someone else, because you’re much more inclined to make the kind of comparisons described here than you would be once you are really “over” someone.

    Another point is that when you’re 20, opportunity cost is going to look and feel very different from when you are 30 or 40. It’s true now, in retrospect, that the hotter women you were getting were “lucky strikes”, but at 20 you’re not really going to know that. I think it’s very easy to make the wrong opportunity cost calculation at that age, especially under the circumstances described here.

    In all, things worked out here as they should have done. Had you called her back and progressed in the relationship, you probably still would have been looking over your shoulder thinking if you could “do better”. Maybe that would have worn off, and maybe it would not have — you were 20, after all, and your own opportunity cost calculus was off, from the long-term perspective, but from the short-term data you had it may not have been.

    I think more than few of us have “the one who got away”. In my case it was a girl in HS who loved me to death, whereas I only “liked” her. She didn’t compare objectively well with my previous HS girlfriend, but she waited for that relationship to crash and then made her moves. In the end, it ended when we went to radically different locations for college, but although she would have been a much better prospect than the person I did marry years later, it would have been a bad relationship for her at the time, given where my head was at then. The relationship didn’t work, and it was *good* that it didn’t work, because it would have been bad for her, and wrong for me to continue it. Sometimes the ones that don’t work out don’t work out for a reason. You end up learning over the course of time, however.

  • detinennui32

    Brendan: “In all, things worked out here as they should have done.”

    Yes, they did. For everyone.

    Brendan: “Another point is that when you’re 20, opportunity cost is going to look and feel very different from when you are 30 or 40. It’s true now, in retrospect, that the hotter women you were getting were “lucky strikes”, but at 20 you’re not really going to know that.”

    That’s a great point. Generally a 20 year old man lacks maturity and perspective. Six months is an eternity when you are 20, and in my mind, it was time to escalate things with Summer. At 40, six months are gone before you know it, and it really isn’t that much time.

    Staying with Summer would have been great for me, but not so much for her, for many reasons not limited to where I was emotionally at the time.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Great post, Detinennui. I don’t know how old you are now, or how long it took you to get to the place you are, but somewhere along the line you found some wisdom.

    And your Summer was also wise, even back then.

  • David Casson

    Without meaning to offend the author, I have the impression that he was speaking from a position of relative scarcity, at least as a college student. For example, he indicates that his junior year was a dry spell. Is this coloring his perspective on Summer?

    First, I certainly agree that it sounds like Summer was a gem. Her intelligence, self-respect, and self-discipline were impressive, especially given her age. What character! I think that if I were in the author’s shoes I would also regret passing her up in the long run. She had value well beyond sexual attraction.

    At the same time, if a man so chooses, he can meet hundreds of girls over the years. Summers are rare, I’m not going to deny that. But surely one can meet two or three Summers out of several hundred women. The beat goes on. The day is not over. And good women are still walking the planet.

    This is why men learn game – well, it’s one reason, anyway. We don’t want the loss of one good woman to spell painful, lifelong regret. We want to become attractive to women so we have lots of options. That way, when we realize we lost a really good catch, it will hurt, but the hurt won’t be deadly, because what we have now is not only more wisdom but also the power to implement that wisdom going forward. The loss of one girl only buttresses our hope that the next time we find a girl like her, we won’t lose out. Without game, we have the wisdom but not the power to do anything with it, and thus the memory of the lost Summer is crushing.

    Additionally, the simple fact of the matter is that exceedingly few college men are qualified to choose their wives. There is much they are still learning – about themselves, about others, about women, about the world. It is stupid to expect them to make such a weighty decision. Game means it’s not left to the twenty year old version of ourselves to choose our lifelong mating prospects. And thank God. I don’t even want my present twenty five year old self to make that decision, because I am still learning. (I’ve started late in the game if anyone is wondering. By the rights my scarcity mentality should far exceed the author’s. However, I believe in our ability to improve, and to improve dramatically.)

  • http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com Aunt Haley

    When you like a guy who you suspect is out of your league, don’t shrink back. Summer and D were quite compatible, they talked for hours on end. She had every reason to take her shot, and I give her credit for acting on her feelings

    .
    Is this actually good advice? It seems to me that all Summer got out of “not shrinking back” was investing time and feelings and then immediately getting dumped for not having sex when D wanted it. All of Summer and D’s “compatibility” was moot in the end.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Aunt Haley

      It seems to me that all Summer got out of “not shrinking back” was investing time and feelings and then immediately getting dumped for not having sex when D wanted it. All of Summer and D’s “compatibility” was moot in the end.

      It was, but it could have gone the other way. Another man might have recognized her deep and real affection and felt more appreciative of it at the time. I have personal experience with this – I told my husband how I felt about him before we dated. He initially rejected me, then came around a few months later. It’s a long story, and one I’ve told before, but the point is that if I hadn’t said what I needed to say, we would never have gotten together. Also, even though it didn’t go the way I wanted at first, I found the experience very freeing. I was not ashamed of having expressed my feelings, I actually felt empowered by the experience. Disappointed yes, but not sorry I’d spoken up.

  • VI

    Great post. The younger girls can learn a lot from this. Every man has some threshold of beauty before he’ll consider sex with you, and a somewhat higher threshold to consider you for a girlfriend, but femininity is what determines if you have long-term potential or not.

    Listen girls, we know you’re going to get old, and women generally age worse than men. If we’re considering you for the long-term, we know your personality is going to be around a lot longer than your looks are. Detinennui32 was young with a short time horizon. A marriage minded man isn’t going to make the same mistake.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Is very interesting because I was some sort of Summer for a guy before I meet my hubby (the last Dominican man I was giving a chance to prove me wrong before thinking in outsourcing…he failed obviously) but for the longest time I though that maybe I was too strict and should had “fought” harder and give him more chances. I don’t think about that anymore, but is good to have this kind of things if I ever need to advice a younger woman, possibly my own daughter, about this. Never compromise is better to wait a little longer to get what you want than to gambled it up in one man, hoping he will change his mind for you. Great post! :)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Ah. Good story and morals.

    And the not so pretty women have better character, for sure.

  • Jonny

    Is this a tale of regret? I don’t see any regret in the post. I only see a sensible woman and a boy who didn’t deserve her because they are both not ready for long term commitment. He didn’t want her. She doesn’t need him. This is a youthful experience that didn’t end with unnecessary tears, which is actually a good thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny
      I don’t think detinennui is clinically depressed or anything, but he does wistfully refer to Summer as “the one that got away” and exhorts young men not to make the same mistake. So yes, I think that sounds like regret. Although you’re right that it was bad timing, as Brendan also pointed out.

  • OffTheCuff

    Is this actually good advice? It seems to me that all Summer got out of “not shrinking back” was investing time and feelings and then immediately getting dumped for not having sex when D wanted it. All of Summer and D’s “compatibility” was moot in the end.

    Leave it to Haley it pee in the cornflakes again. It sounds like this woman had her shit together. She married at 23 (hmm, just like my wife) and got what she wanted. Doesn’t seem like such a bad strategy now, huh?

    I’ve said it before — you’ll never experience love if you can’t expose yourself to some amount of risk.

    Second… they shared some good times together, but it didn’t go anywhere further. That doesn’t automatically render all the good times “moot”. Maybe she cried for months and burned voodoo dolls of him… but maybe she said “eh, he’s not for me” and forgot about him promptly. You’re approaching this (as usual), from the female-permavictim standpoint.

  • detinennui32

    Jonny: I prefer to think of it now as a cautionary tale.

    OTC: She most definitely had her shit together.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Haley

    Is this actually good advice?

    Uh, yes. She walked away with her dignity intact and he although he was sadder, he also came away wiser. There’s a whole lot of people who can’t say that.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com Renee

    OfftheCuff,

    You’re approaching this (as usual), from the female-permavictim standpoint.

    Not necessarily. The guy’s quoted saying that he felt that he was “wasting his time” and that he could “do better than average”. While I think the advice was a good one (you have to take risks), because their “head-space” at that time was different, it kind of overrided their compatibility. Whether the good times were moot or not isn’t really the point.

    Namae nanka,
    I think taking that Freud quote and applying it to Summer driving him out to her home is a bit much.
    —————–

    Slightly OT, I’m not trying to start anything and make it all about women – it’s just a thought:

    Reading this post, I can’t help but think of the other side of the coin, where men have resentment for women who didn’t give them the time of day when they were younger and have some sort of feeling of satisfaction or whatever when they see those same women years later and less attractive. In this story, people are easy on the guy (especially since he admited his mistakes), saying that he was immature at the time, had a different view of opportunity costs, and that he had sex on the brain so to speak.

    But for women, the “tone” of discussion seems different. Perhaps due to their delusions about the SMV, but obviously they weren’t ready for long term commitment either. This is one of those things where I’m going to have to sit down and think about. Taking in all the factors, it’s alot to ponder.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Aunt Haley…”All of Summer and D’s “compatibility” was moot in the end”

    Really? Is a relationship only of value if it turns permanant?

    Aren’t there relationships you look back on fondly and are glad you had, even though you didn’t wind up with the person?

  • jamie

    @Renee

    I’ve been wondering when your off-topic point would be addressed. I rejected a lot of nice guys when I was younger, not because I didn’t like them, but because there was no freaking way I was going to settle down with ANYBODY at 20. I sort of resent being made to feel guilty about this.

    The good ones are still my friends and, I’m happy to report, do much better with women these days.

  • http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com Aunt Haley

    OTC–
    Clearly you have never been a woman who (1) doesn’t get much attention from guys, (2) has the unbelievably good fortune to meet a guy who is higher in SMV that you get along with really well, (3) who takes you out for some dates so you start to believe he must have some reciprocal interest, who then (4) goes completely MIA after you deny him sex the first time he goes for it. The likelihood that this girl shrugged and said, “Eh, he’s not for me” and promptly forgot him after what happened is probably zero. To believe otherwise is just the manhamster talking.

    Fortunately for Summer, she had a spine of steel and was able to move on and get married not too long afterward.

  • detinennui32

    The point of the post is to learn from the story. I certainly did not make these particular mistakes again. I wrote it and asked Susan and Badger to publish it in the sincere hope that a young man out there will get with the program and realize what he has. Or maybe a wavering, insecure woman will read it and her spine will stiffen a little. Or maybe a resolute woman will read it and not give it up to a man who does not deserve her. Or maybe still others can learn what made Summer so feminine and do those things herself.

    In this particular case, the questions of villain and victim were settled long ago.

  • Matt T

    Dude, after Summer freaked out about sex, did you attempt any anti-LMR techniques?

    Anyways, you obviously know that you waited a bit too long to attempt escalation, so by then Summer may have implicitly friendzoned you. I honestly think you did the right thing to cut ties with her.

    This really goes to the root of why men learn game: so they will never again let one girl affect them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Dude, after Summer freaked out about sex, did you attempt any anti-LMR techniques?

      Anyways, you obviously know that you waited a bit too long to attempt escalation, so by then Summer may have implicitly friendzoned you. I honestly think you did the right thing to cut ties with her.

      This really goes to the root of why men learn game: so they will never again let one girl affect them.

      *Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.

  • OffTheCuff

    Haley, I’m an average guy, so as for point #1, that that means I get about 1/10000th the sexual interest that you or Summer does. And I’m in decent shape with a flat belly and with decent upper-body strength. (Thank you, Game! I never what I was trivially capable of!)

    As for 2-4, you are reading into the story what you want to believe, which is the most maximally negative possible reading, rather than what Deti is actually stating. Who knows if Summer was even a virgin? Maybe she was more experienced than him, and decided to place him on the “you have to wait” list. We don’t know. Team Woman, Go!

    What’s more likely? I’d bet you a box of donuts that if we found Summer we’d find out she lived through the experience, grew, enjoyed some parts, was disappointed at others, rather than came within an inch of suicide at the hands of Cruel, Cruel, upmarket cad Deti. That horrible cad who waited four months before making a move, instead of four hours.

    Deti, well done, again.

  • detinennui32

    OTC: I know this isn’t a religious blog, but let me put it this way.

    God causes all things to work together for our good, for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.

    Things like this have ways of working themselves out. Call it faith. Call it karma. Call it coincidence. We can call it whatever we wish. It all worked itself out in the fullness of time and space. It worked out for Summer and for me. Had she and I stayed together, we might not have met our respective spouses or led the lives we were called and intended to lead.

    And I’m not even upmarket.

    @Matt T: I’ve told as much of the story as necessary to illustrate the points I wanted to make.

  • detinennui32

    And another thing:

    Most girls fall into the average 4-6 range physically. And they get constant and terribly debilitating messages from the MSM that if they are not drop dead gorgeous and a size 0, they have less worth, a sharply reduced ability to attract men, and that the men they can attract are less desirable.

    Maybe some of them will read this and realize that the MSM is lying to them. Maybe some of them will realize that there are things they can do to bump up their attractiveness. Maybe they’ll realize they, too, can be sexy. Maybe they’ll realize they can attract a decent man and get married if that’s what they want. Maybe this will offer those girls a little hope.

    I can tell you that the things Summer did made me sit up and take notice. And evidently it worked not just once, but at least twice.

  • Anonymous

    I just googled “MSM” and I got this:

    Link

    I don’t think that’s what you meant. I still don’t know what MSM stands for.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anon
      MSM = mainstream media

  • Vae Victus

    Satisfying? To whom???

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Vae Victus

      Satisfying? To whom???

      To me. All’s well that ends well. Lessons learned, happiness found. No bitterness, just productive introspection. And a bittersweet nostalgia for those we left behind.

  • Matt C

    *Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.

    Susan, on a related note. I suggest looking at this site in your blog comments before: http://www.practicalpickup.com/.

    The guy who runs the site and blog is actually a really good guy based on the stuff he’s written. Personally, I find Mystery/Style to have some really acidic ideas that both objectify women and are somewhat misogynistic.

    He doesn’t talk about anti-lmr techniques, but more about caring about the girls needs and relating to the girl and understanding that they don’t feel comfortable, instead of trying to trick them into having sex (like through anti-lmr techniques).

    This is his most recent post that I really like: http://www.practicalpickup.com/power-in-vulnerability.

    It’s definitely a healthier view on women and becoming more attractive.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Matt C
    I really, really liked that article on vulnerability. That guy does seem great.

    In this way, vulnerability represents a form of power, a deep and subtle form of power.

    This is what I was saying to Haley – being vulnerable enough to tell a man I had feelings for him made me feel empowered. I was kinda proud of myself, just for putting it out there. Women do this rarely – I can only imagine that men must feel this way when they learn Game. Jesus Mahoney posting here lately certainly had that experience.

  • Doug1

    I hesitate to be a slight wet blanket on this true story of hope for average attractiveness girls.

    They should have hope, but not for holding out until they can get a guy to do LTR > marriage who’s 3 SMV levels higher.

    But I also want to be realistic.

    If detinennui32 could attract and keep an 8 for a year, albeit a high negative drama one, even “by luck” as he says he has to be a greater beta 7, if not a lesser alpha male 8.

    I get and completely agree that going down a notch or two in SMV to get a girl with a great personality who’s really, really into you is totally worth it, and I agree. Especially since the guys is maybe kidding himself about what his SMV really is. Though guys do that for a host of reasons a whole lot less than girls do. For one hugely important thing, girls who are less than very good girls can get sex, albeit what turns out to be fling or ons sex sometimes with guys three smv levels higher than themselves, and easily with guys two smv levels higher. They tend to self calibrate accordingly.

    So yeah I could see he would have been better with Summer than chasing higher SMV girls if she was a 6, or certainly a 7, as opposed to the bitchy 8 who gave him all kinds of trouble for a year. (I wonder if she was cheating on the side.)

    Personalities matter lots too for guys, or should, when they’re in the LTR > marriage market. But still in the larger cities there’s a huge field out there.

    There’s a tendency for hotter girls to be bitchier, but it’s only a tendency. They definitely tend to be to guys they consider marginal for them. But a girl raised by a strong lesser alpha father say, can often be a good bet. In my experience. Even by a strong successful greater beta father.

    So net I’m saying that going down 3 smv’s in a LTR from what you can get is overkill guys. One or two, may make sense, depending on the girl. But you can also find girls at your same SMV who are great, feminine, adoring girls. They do exist. My M exists.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    Think long term. A man will be happier, more content, and more at peace with a 5 who loves him than with an 8 who does not.

    You lost me right there. I get what you’re saying in theory, but not in practice. I’ve learned long ago that 10s and even 8s tend not to be better women. In fact they’re usually terrible people. But what do you think is going to happen once that 5 sees a 7 or an 8 respond to you positively? She’ll know you settled for her.

    And she’ll hate you for it.

    Be patient, and don’t give up so easily.

    Address and deal with the oneitis.

    Aloof and indifferent works.

    I take it back, this is actually really good advice when taken together. A woman has to earn her place in your life. The best way to do that is to know she can lose you. The effect this has on women is amazing. It literally turns the game in a 180 degree direction.

    The one piece of advice you missed though is to be the best version of you, of the man you are. Build a life without women and eventually one will want to be a part of that life.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Michael of Charlotte

    Build a life without women and eventually one will want to be a part of that life.

    Yes. This is supremely important. You must have ambitions outside of women.

    @ detinennui32 and Susan Walsh

    I have a hypothesis. I can’t test it though, because I’m a man.

    I believe that, thanks to feminist-mandated suppression of femininity in women, physical appearance has become more important for women in recent years. Since women are told to be like men, they have nothing to offer the average man except their bodies.

    This also can explain why they dress sluttier than even their mothers did; since their personalities don’t offer anything that can’t be provided by a man, the only way they can show femininity is by flaunting their bodies in a rather graceless, ham-fisted way. This leads to the body-image issues we keep hearing about; only 8s through 10s can play this game. In the current feminist behavioral paradigm, 4s, 5s, and 6s aren’t even in the running.

    Posts I made in Femininity vs. Feminism explain that a feminine demeanor can make a woman with some meat on her bones more attractive to men, much like how Game makes betas more attractive to women (though I also warned not to let oneself balloon out.)

    I believe that feminine behavior, not more attempts to shame men and boys for liking hot women, will go a longer way toward fixing body image issues, which are, at heart, a lament that boys won’t be attracted to them, similar to the beta male argument that women only go for jerks.. With a behavioral adjustment, the average-looking women won’t be pulling men down left and right, but they will do better than before and finally get some male companionship.

  • Matt T

    Susan, on a related note. I suggest looking at this site in your blog comments before: http://www.practicalpickup.com/.

    The guy who runs the site and blog is actually a really good guy based on the stuff he’s written. Personally, I find Mystery/Style to have some really acidic ideas that both objectify women and are somewhat misogynistic.

    He doesn’t talk about anti-lmr techniques, but more about caring about the girls needs and relating to the girl and understanding that they don’t feel comfortable, instead of trying to trick them into having sex (like through anti-lmr techniques).

    This is his most recent post that I really like: http://www.practicalpickup.com/power-in-vulnerability.

    It’s definitely a healthier view on women and becoming more attractive.

    Haha, for the most part I actually enjoy Entropy’s blog, but I blatantly disregard any advice he has on vulnerability. Girls don’t want a guy who shares his feelings, they want an alpha who may or may not share his feelings. There’s a difference.

    Plus in my experience, if you share your faults with someone, they will use that knowledge against you whenever possible.

  • SayWhaat

    @ OTC:

    That horrible cad who waited four months before making a move, instead of four hours.

    Four months is worse than four hours. I can easily brush aside getting burned after four hours of my time. Not so much four months of emotional investment.

  • SayWhaat

    This post really hit close to home for me. I always feel like I’m the girl that guys make their mistakes with, realize it afterwards, and apply the lesson to some other lucky girl.

  • detinennui32

    SayWhaat: better late than never.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @SayWhaat
    Same here. It’s like those guys would put a big giant M on my forehead: “file as M for Marriage material. I’ll look it up for later, but have fun playing the field now.”

    It can be disheartening, but in the end it worked best for everyone. Timing is key.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s like those guys would put a big giant M on my forehead: “file as M for Marriage material. I’ll look it up for later, but have fun playing the field now.”

      I’ve told this story before, but it’s relevant here. One young woman I know is very attractive and does not have casual sex. One man of similar attractiveness told her, “You’re a girl I would love to bring home to my mom. But right now I’m looking for a girl I don’t want my mom to know about.”

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Same here. It’s like those guys would put a big giant M on my forehead: “file as M for Marriage material. I’ll look it up for later, but have fun playing the field now.”

    If it makes both of you feel a lot better I was mostly chased by married older guys wanting to play the field with me “ewww”. Having the W “whore” in your forehead is not fun unless you are actually one. The truth is some people just have to spent certain amount of time attracting the wrong type. God is immortal and needs to have a laugh once in a while to keep things interesting. That is at least I used to tell myself “somewhere someone is laughing at the irony of this situation” :)

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “being vulnerable enough to tell a man I had feelings for him made me feel empowered. I was kinda proud of myself, just for putting it out there. Women do this rarely”

    That’s true, but it’s also not. Young women seem to flip between “I’m not going to admit my feelings because that would give him power over me” and “I’m so in looove that I’m a victim of my emotions and if you reject me you’re a bad man for breaking my heart!”

    The former is a system of denial that also leads to many women having casual sex they can’t handle.

    As far as the latter, the price of a system in which we choose our own mates is that we might not be chosen. If he hasn’t been deceptive, he’s not responsible for your heartache. No one’s responsible. It sucks but that’s the end of it.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “This post really hit close to home for me. I always feel like I’m the girl that guys make their mistakes with, realize it afterwards, and apply the lesson to some other lucky girl.”

    Better than an ex of mine – I broke her streak of dating guys who came out after dating her.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    A little bit OT, but you know how I said earlier in the comments that looks have become more important due to the discouragement of femininity? Here’s a little bit of evidence from the comment thread on a blog post about Steampunk. I think this really says something:

    I think part of the charm is sometimes the safe nostalgia — the admission that something is superior with the belief that since it is in the past it can’t be brought back with all the effort and self-control that would take. The Body Project recounts how the author read girls’ New Year’s resolutions, both Victorian and modern, and realized that the modern ones were preoccupied with their looks, and the Victorian ones with their moral and intellectual development, and openly admitted that was downhill, peppering it with comments that it was impossible to go back.

    Emphasis mine; I think I’m on to something here. Susan? Your opinion?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @CrisisEraDynamo
      That’s fascinating – I’ve clipped the steampunk post and will look it over this weekend. I do think you’re onto something. I really like that Steampunk look – not for myself, obviously, but it is quite feminine and romantic.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        List of Citations re Condom Use and Alcohol in hookups:

        1. Condoms were not used in 31% of participants’ most recent vaginal sex hookups. Given that more than 9 million new cases of STDs occur each year among 15- to 24-year-old Americans (Weinstock, Berman, & Cates, 2004), the high prevalence of unprotected oral and vaginal sex is a public health concern.

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2932467/

        2. Although many studies have found that men and women hook up at similar rates (e.g., Fielder & Carey, 2010; Owen et al., 2010; Paul et al., 2000), it appears that gender interacts with other predictors and consequences of hooking up. For instance, researchers have found women‟s alcohol use is a stronger predictor of engaging in casual sex and can influence their ability to negotiate or initiate condom use as compared to men(e.g., Owen & Fincham, 2010a; Scott-Sheldon et al., 2009). Moreover, Grello et al. (2006) found that men who were less psychologically distressed and women who were more psychologically distressed were both more likely to hook up, although research on this gender interaction has not always been replicated (e.g., Fielder & Carey, 2010; Owen et al., 2010).

        The results demonstrated that alcohol use by gender significantly differentiated young adults who engaged in non-penetrative and penetrative hook ups from those who did not hook up over the course of the semester. Beyond previous hooking up behaviors, we also found that young adults‟ alcohol use was associated with engaging in non-penetrative and penetrative hook ups, which is consistent with prior studies (e.g., Grello et al., 2006; Paul et al., 2000). Moreover, young adults who engaged in penetrative hook ups reported the greatest alcohol use, with young adults who engaged in nonpenetrative hook ups reporting less alcohol use, and those who did not hook up reporting the least alcohol use. Exploration of physical intimacy may be normative for young adults; however, it appears that alcohol use increases the likelihood that the physical exploration will include penetrative encounters.

        Conceptually, young adults‟ alcohol use may decrease inhibitions to approach potential partners, making hooking up more likely as well as influence their decisions to become more physically intimate. Alcohol use for women was a stronger predictor of engaging in hook up encounters (both non-penetrative and penetrative hook ups) as compared to men, which is consistent with previous research examining gender effects on the relationship between alcohol use and casual sex behaviors (e.g., Owen & Fincham, 2010a; Sheldon et al., 2009).

        One possible explanation is that women may rely on alcohol more as a facilitative agent to engage in hook ups as compared to men.

        http://www.chs.fsu.edu/~ffincham/papers/2010%20Owen%20Fincham%20Moore%20ASEB%2010-12-10%20FINAL.pdf

        3. a. According to the American College Health Association National College Health Assessment for Spring 2009, of 953 FSU students surveyed, 19.9 percent of female respondents reported having unprotected sex during the last school year as a result of their own drinking.  Furthermore, only 53.1 percent of sexually active students reported using a condom the last time they had vaginal sex. 

        b. The study, conducted by feminine hygiene company Femfresh, surveyed 3,000 women between the ages of 18 and 50. According to researchers,  the average women reported 8 different sexual partners and was drunk with at least 5 of them. Four out of 10 have “always” been a bit tipsy when they have slept with a partner for the first time. Additionally, 48.5 percent said they preferred sex while under the influence.

        http://www.theyetionline.com/news-community/survey-reveals-alarming-trends-in-sex-under-the-influence/

        4. Promiscuity is unrelated with non-binge drinking but even more strongly related with binge drinking on multiple occasions. Results from a rudimentary instrumental variables strategy and accounting for whether sex is immediately preceded by alcohol use suggest that binge drinking directly leads to risky sex. Some binge drinking-induced promiscuity seems to occur among students, especially males, involved in long-term relationships.

        http://www.nber.org/papers/w15953

        5. a. Almost 50% of unplanned sexual encounters are under the influence of alcohol.
        b. 80% of first sexual experiences occur under the influence of alcohol.
        c. By senior year, 81% of students have had sex because they were drunk.
        d. College students who mix alcohol and sex report having more partners whom they know only “slightly” or “moderately.”
        e. Alcohol impairment often leads to: not knowing your partner; not having a
        condom available; not using a condom; or not using it correctly.

        f. In two-thirds of unplanned pregnancies, the woman was intoxicated during sex.
        g. 60% of STDs are transmitted when the partners are drunk.

        http://www.stevenson.edu/SharedMedia/PDF/Wellness/college_sex_and_alcohol.pdf

        6. Which women are more likely to have anal sex, multiple partners and an STD?

        Within gender analyses showed that women binge drinkers engaged in anal sex at more than twice the rate of women who drank alcohol without binges (33.3% vs. 15.9%; p < 0.05) and 3 times the rate of women who abstained from alcohol (11.1%; p < 0.05). Having multiple sex partners was more than twice as common among women binge drinkers than women abstainers (40.5% vs. 16.8%; p < 0.05). Gonorrhea was nearly 5 times higher among women binge drinkers compared to women abstainers (10.6% vs. 2.2%; p < 0.05). The association between binge drinking and sexual behaviors/gonorrhea remained after controlling for drug use. Among men, rates of risky sexual behaviors/STDs were high, but did not differ by alcohol use.

        http://www.bakadesuyo.com/which-women-are-more-likely-to-have-anal-sex?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bakadesuyo+%28Barking+up+the+wrong+tree%29

        7. University of Maryland Researchers Identify Binge Drinking Genes
        http://calorielab.com/news/2011/02/28/binge-drinking-genes/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+calorie-counter-news+(CalorieLab+Calorie+Counter+News)

        • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

          Citations regarding the link between testosterone levels and promiscuity in women:

          1. Lust is driven by testosterone. Romantic love is driven by dopamine. The two hormones trigger one another. – Helen Fisher

          http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/12/hookinguprealities/sex-is-chemistry-and-its-never-casual/

          2. Testosterone in women: Fast, assertive, focused, masculine, forceful seducer, aggressive, unfeeling; has no time for cuddling.

          Vasopressin in women: Secretive, background, subtle aggressive male energies; brother to testosterone, brother to oxytocin (makes you want to connect in an aggressive male way).

          Louann Brizendine

          http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/08/18/relationshipstrategies/biology-drives-gender/

          3. The broad-based personality traits known as the ‘Big Five’ differentially relate to features of risky sexuality across cultures. Low levels of agreeableness and low levels of conscientiousness are universally associated with relationship infidelity across cultures. Sexual promiscuity relates weakly to these traits as well, but is more highly related to extraversion across many, but not all, world regions. Both forms of risky sexual behaviour are generally unrelated to neuroticism and openness across cultures. The predicted personality–sexuality correlations are most strongly evident in Western cultures

          http://www.bradley.edu/academics/las/psy/facstaff/schmitt/documents/Schmitt-2004.EJPers-B5RiskySex.pdf

          4. Hare Psychopathy Checklist

          Psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the PCL-R,[43] which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point (0, 1, 2) scale according to two factors. PCL-R Factor 2 is associated with behavioral deficits or antisocial lifestyle,[44] more specifically: reactive anger, anxiety, increased risk of suicide, criminality, and impulsive violence.
          PCL-R Factor 1, in contrast, is associated with personality deficits or aggressive narcissism,[45] more specifically: extraversion and positive affect. Factor 1, the so-called core personality traits of psychopathy, may even be beneficial for the psychopath (in terms of non‑deviant social functioning).
          Factor 1
          Aggressive narcissism
          1. Glibness/superficial charm
          2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
          3. Pathological lying
          4. Cunning/manipulative
          5. Lack of remorse or guilt
          6. Emotionally shallow
          7. Callous/lack of empathy
          8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
          Factor 2
          Socially deviant lifestyle
          1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
          2. Parasitic lifestyle
          3. Poor behavioral control
          4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
          5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
          6. Impulsiveness
          7. Irresponsibility
          8. Juvenile delinquency
          9. Early behavioral problems
          10. Revocation of conditional release

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

          5. Women cheat during ovulation due to a surge in testosterone

          http://news.discovery.com/human/women-ovulation-hormones-behavior.html

          6. Women with higher levels of circulation testosterone have more sexual thoughts, greater desire for sex, and higher levels of sexual activity (Morris et al. 1987: Persky et al. 1978). The androgens have long been associated with the male sex drive (Beach, 1948). Now there is also compelling evidence that libido, or sexual motivation, in women is dependent on androgens (Sherwin 1994:428).

          http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/10lustattraction.pdf

          7. Finger length due to higher exposure to prenatal testosterone

          The findings are the latest in a growing body of research associating the difference in finger lengths with character traits such as sporting prowess, homosexuality, aggression, promiscuity, autism and vulnerability to depression.

          A long ring finger is an indication that the developing heart, brain — and hands — were exposed to higher levels of the male hormone testosterone, while a long index finger is a marker of exposure to oestrogen, the female hormone. Personality traits such as aggressiveness and fertility, which are strongly linked to gender, were among the first to be studied in relation to finger length.

          In 2000, scientists at the University of California, Berkeley, found that both men and women with index fingers of similar length to their ring fingers were more likely than average to be homosexual.This particular combination in finger lengths is at the “crossover” point for male and female hand shapes and near the middle of the spectrum of testosterone exposure.
          This and other early reports caused surprise and some critics said they were little more accurate than palm-reading. Since then, however, the hormone-finger length link has become more widely accepted.
          http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article641643.ece

  • VD

    *Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.

    Now THAT is amusing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      *Facepalm* Another one lost to the Siths.

      Now THAT is amusing.

      Do you think that detinennui should have pursued a strategy of overcoming her LMR to get her into bed? Or did he do the “right” thing by leaving when she said she wasn’t ready to have sex? This is where we get tripped up on the ethics of Game.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Thanks, Susan.

  • OffTheCuff

    Four months is worse than four hours. I can easily brush aside getting burned after four hours of my time. Not so much four months of emotional investment.

    Four months of something good that ends, is better than four years of nothing that never starts. I guess it’s matter of perspective.

    Don’t forget Deti also got dumped by his FCG, and note zero lack of sympathy for that.

  • detinennui32

    CrisisEraDynamo:

    Good thinking. The Steampunk look is pretty sexy because it leaves a few things to the imagination. Part of the sexy with Summer was that the intrigue of discovery, the mystery, the fact that I didn’t know everything or get to see everything right away. Things were left to the imagination. She never showed me everything. There is still much I don’t know and did not see, and that I will never know or see.

    A couple of thoughts on your theory of physical appearance becoming more important: I think this is right. It’s actually an unintended consequence of feminism.

    Women and men are around each other more than they used to be. Women are moving up and forward in their careers because feminism tells them they can’t depend on a man to help or support them. Those jobs transform women into harder personalities because they have to be to do those jobs. Those tougher personalities can be more repellent to men for a lot of reasons — it tends to de-feminize women; it tends to leave less time for men and relationships outside work.

    And so to attract men, it does seem women started flaunting their bodies more. there are many reasons for this too, some cultural, some practical: 1. More celebrities pushing the envelope. 2. Clothing styles. 3. Ubiquity of porn. 4. The “You go grrrl” attitude that women can do, say and wear whatever they want, wherever and whenever they want, leading to 5. a gradual relaxation of social mores and coarsening of the culture and 6. the internet and social networking, which is destroying the usual boundaries of privacy we put up around our lives and allows more people to know more and see more about us and our families.

    The practical reasons are that women are working more, have their own money, and have less time to spend on relationships. They feel they have to do something to differentiate themselves from other women.

    You left out one thing: Hypergamy. In today’s market, all the women are competing for the alphas, that small group of men the women really want. They don’t feel they should have to get married to get an alpha, and feminism has told them that they can “have it all” and they must not settle for less than the absolute best. They’ve been told that a beta husband is boring and they can get a better one.

    So they have to push the envelope to attract men — or they simply become promiscuous. It is as if they are all peeling more clothes off, becoming ever more outrageous and jockeying for position, so as to be noticed by the coveted alphas.

    In previous years, hypergamy and its deleterious effects on ordered society were well understood. It was addressed and contained by women getting married early, entitling the wife to the marital benefit of a source of support. Its purpose was to keep her reasonably satisfied with one sex partner, preventing her from putting her husband in the sexual scale and finding him wanting because she had had better before. Then the marital contract was enforced with severe consequences for women who committed adultery.

    By the same token, the man was expected to support his wife and not cheat on her either. In return for taking a wife he was presumed to have the marital benefit of a regular sex partner and good reason to believe that children born of the union were his. The purpose of that was to motivate him and keep him happy at home so he did not seek sexual satisfaction elsewhere. And if he did cheat on his wife, there were harsh consequences for his breach of the marital bond too.

    Here’s the unintended consequence part: Feminism claimed to be about equalizing all opportunities for all women and improving women’s lives, so that they did not need men or the benefits of the above contract. Witness the unintended side effect: Feminism has coarsened the culture to the point that as a rule, only the extremely attractive women or those who put out before marriage get the guys. Now many women believe they HAVE to have sex before they are ready, or he’ll move on to someone who will give him what he wants.

    And after years of being told they aren’t wanted or needed, men simply shrug their shoulders and conclude (1) MGTOW or (2) I’ll take the sex and leave the rest.

  • jj

    I believe that, thanks to feminist-mandated suppression of femininity in women, physical appearance has become more important for women in recent years. Since women are told to be like men, they have nothing to offer the average man except their bodies.

    +1

    This also explains why so many women go into free fall, SMV wise, after their mid twenties. Once their looks fade a bit, they really do start to resemble men and that’s a huge turn off. But the ones who are more feminine remain attractive, and an attractive woman in her 30′s can practically write her own ticket.

  • detinennui32

    Crisis:

    4s through 6s can get sex, but not commitment. If a 4 wants sex, she can usually find a willing man. It’s just that she won’t get commitment.

    Roissy has written on this extensively.

    Women have the trump card of sex. They decide when and on what terms sex will happen.

    Men have the trump card of commitment. They decide when and on what terms commitment will happen.

    When women give up sex without commitment, men withhold commitment.

    And why should a man give his commitment (responsibiliity, money, resources) to a woman who has given sex to many men before him? What assurances does he have that she will stay with him?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ detinennui32

    I already knew about the details of hypergamy and the role of the marriage contract in keeping society together. I was just offering an explanation as to why, despite feminism, women still want to look hot, as well as offering an explanation for body image issues among women, based on my own experience. You are very correct; the promotion of casual sex has only amplified the effect I mentioned, since sex involves physical attraction.

    @ jj

    Once their looks fade a bit, women really do start to resemble men and that’s a huge turn off.

    Good point. I never thought about it that way.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ detinennui32

    Regarding 4s through 6s getting sex, my point still stands. Lacking femininity, what do they have to offer, other than their bodies, that a man cannot get from another man?

  • Anonymous

    detinennui32: if I recall correctly, you are married. How does this Summer compare with your wife?

  • Jack

    This also explains why so many women go into free fall, SMV wise, after their mid twenties.

    I think that it’s hard for women, who’ve been raised to believe that femininity is demeaning, to accept that the lack of it is why they become ‘invisible’ to men. This is a transformation that I’ve seen take place among my female friends, most of whom are over 30 by now. It’s something that they complain about, and the single ones worry about. Most don’t want to accept that the reason that men don’t regard them in that way is because they don’t present themselves in that way. Like JJ stated, they really do start to resemble men, or hobbit gym teachers. Without their youth, they don’t have many other outward attributes that are attractive to men.

  • detinennui32

    Crisis: I agree with all your points. I had hoped to amplify them and buttress them with more factual and theoretical support.

    I agree that absent femininity, 4s through 6s have only their bodies to offer. And if they offer their bodies they can usually find men to take them up on it, even though sex is likely all they will be able to get.

    One of this blog’s soapboxes is that that’s a pretty bad deal for women. I suspect Summer reached the same conclusion long before she ever met me.

    I also agree that a feminine 5 is infinitely sexier and more attractive than a caustic, abrasive, constantly fitness testing 8. I have deeply personal experience with this.

  • detinennui32

    Anonymous 10>27 am:

    All things considered, Mrs. detinennui32 was a 6 in the SMP when I met her. Mrs. d. was more conventionally good looking but had less feminine charm. Summer was less conventionally good looking but was so feminine (kind, optimistic, pleasant mien and bearing, flirty but not too forward and overt) that estrogen exuded from every pore.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com Renee

    Jamie,

    I’ve been wondering when your off-topic point would be addressed. I rejected a lot of nice guys when I was younger, not because I didn’t like them, but because there was no freaking way I was going to settle down with ANYBODY at 20. I sort of resent being made to feel guilty about this.

    Exactly. Sometimes I wonder do people actually advise women to settle down when they simply don’t want to? When I was at college the last thing I was thinking about was marriage and kids. And no I wasn’t off having sex either. The way I see it, it’ll happen when or if it happens.

    detinennui32,

    And why should a man give his commitment (responsibiliity, money, resources) to a woman who has given sex to many men before him? What assurances does he have that she will stay with him?

    I touched on this before, and I kind of understand this reasoning based on what type of fidelity is important to men and women (physical and emotional). But there’s one question that hasn’t been directly answered. Is a woman less likely to be loyal in a LTR if she has a high partner count and is that unique to women only? Or is the risk the same for both sexes, it’s just that the risk is not as much of an issue for women. That’s what I’m thinking.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Here is the most significant part of the story:

    After that I didn’t return her calls because, well, I thought I was wasting time. My immature 20 year-old mind and body were getting more and more sexually frustrated. I might wait for above average, but not for average.

    He’s assuming that he would have been happy with a girl he didn’t really care about if he had gone along with her fantasy of who he might be.

    If you ask me, that’s a huge S-T-R-E-T-C-H.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I was kinda proud of myself, just for putting it out there. Women do this rarely – I can only imagine that men must feel this way when they learn Game. Jesus Mahoney posting here lately certainly had that experience.”

    Sue,

    Yea, I would say “putting it out there” amounts to a sort of freedom that’s the antithesis of shame.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    I’m not also not falling for the popular mythology that says hot-looking are nastier than plain women.

    Assuming that because a woman is nice in the beginning that she will still be nice in six months, three years or six years down the line is a big mistake.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Typos. FML.

  • Matt T

    Do you think that detinennui should have pursued a strategy of overcoming her LMR to get her into bed? Or did he do the “right” thing by leaving when she said she wasn’t ready to have sex? This is where we get tripped up on the ethics of Game.

    Susan, it sounds as if you think that anti-LMR strategies such as plowing, freeze-out, reframing, etc, are guaranteed success. They’re not. At every stage in the seduction process, you’re more likely to fail than succeed.

    But it’s never wrong to try. That’s all you’re doing: trying. I really don’t see what’s unethical about it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Mike C emailed me this comment because he can’t get onto my site at work. I thought it was worth sharing.

      I am literally tearing my hair out at some of the inane comments about the “economic benefits” such as increased revenue to testing clinics. The main function of the economy is an improved standard of living, all the dollars is just accounting. Labor, capital, money directed towards the effects of promiscuity is labor, capital, money that could have gone elsewhere to raise productivity or perhaps fund some new thing that benefits all of society across the board, not just the STD ridden,

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt T

      But it’s never wrong to try. That’s all you’re doing: trying. I really don’t see what’s unethical about it.

      You’re walking a fine line. There may not be anything unethical about it. But I wonder if you think that when a woman says “No” that should be respected at any point. When is it time to say OK, pick up your ball and go home for the day? It was clear that Detinennui disliked her decision but respected it. He then made his own choice not to spend any more time with her. Would it have been a better outcome if he had persuaded her to have sex against her better judgment? To take her V-card, knowing she had reservations, and then proceed to probably dump her?

      This, this is what gets women really, really upset about Game. Take your shot, and take no for an answer. Don’t try to “glam” us with techniques designed to make us feel shitty about ourselves, both tonight and in the morning.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yea, I disagree with you Matt. To me it seems very unethical. If your goal with a girl is purely physical (you want to get off) and you freeze her out when she gives you LMR, what you’re doing is giving her false hope: the idea that if she puts out, you’ll give her the emotional care she’s craving. And maybe you’ll reward her with it that night, but seems to me, most PUA’s are going to be out gaming other girls the morning after. So yea, that seems unethical.

    Of course, I don’t have respect for any girl who’s going to put out to a player to win his approval, but it still seems unethical to me.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Sometimes I wonder do people actually advise women to settle down when they simply don’t want to?

    We will stop if only women that didn’t wanted to settle down young didn’t spent a lot of time whining about “no good men left” or “Men need to man up” or “sad because they don’t have a family” after they reach certain, if women just make a choice and kept themselves committed to it for better or worse, I’m pretty sure no one will be saying anything to the younger ones. The thing is that many women assume that the moment they feel like having it all they will just snap their fingers and it will happen. This is a cautionary warning, if you spent your peak fertility years not wanting a serious commitment don’t think that once this years had passed you will be able to have a serious commitment on command. That is not how things work.
    Thus is not to “force women to make choices they don’t want to” we are just telling them what feminism forgot to tell: that you can’t have it all and once you make a choice be sure to be informed of all the good and bad.
    That is all. The moment women stop whining you will see this advices disheartening.

  • VI

    About virgins
    Even when I was all about getting the notch, I still avoided virgins unless I saw LTR potential in them.

    About LMR & Game
    Is using game to get pass LMR unethical if it’s natural? Game as practiced by PUAs had nothing to teach me about LMR. Even when I was a clueless teenager, I was a natural at thwarting LMR. It’s in my instincts.

    If the girl is giving token resistance, I don’t see using game as being unethical at all.

    If it’s genuine resistance, then maybe we can argue that game is unethical.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VI

      If the girl is giving token resistance, I don’t see using game as being unethical at all.

      If it’s genuine resistance, then maybe we can argue that game is unethical.

      I like this. It sounds about right to me.

  • jamie

    @Stephanie

    I disagree. Marrying young would have been a huge mistake. I wasn’t out screwing around, I was doing my own thing. I lived on the road for 2 years working at ski resorts in the winter and dude ranches in the summer and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything, least of all a husband, house and a minivan.

    It’s probably a bit different where you come from (Dominican Republic, right?) but here in LA, nobody gets married before 25. I don’t expect to snap my fingers and “have it all” but I don’t think I wasted my peak fertility years. I cultivated a better version of myself, saw the country, did thing I’d always wanted to do. If I had gotten married at 20, I would have felt trapped. I’m learning now that I will never again have the kind of energy that I had back then and I’m glad I didn’t waste it.

    If I get to be 30 and there really are no good men left, I can always get a cat.

    @ Renee
    Agreed.

  • detinennui32

    Matt T: LMR = last minute resistance?

    YEah, we’d been dating a few months. As I wrote at Badger’s, my thinking was “we’ve dated some, we like each other pretty well, now it’s sexytime”. She didn’t see it that way at that time.

    Couldn’t just plow. That’s pretty damn dangerous these days. That comes too close to sexual assault. You have to make sure in this day and age you have a willing partner. “I’m not ready to do this yet” was pretty clear. Summer’s clear message was “I’ll go this far, and no farther”. Had to stick with that at the time.

    Gentle coaxing is one thing. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead is quite another. If I had plowed ahead, I could have risked a false rape charge. It was a college campus when PC and radical feminism were getting underway.

    Freezeout wouldn’t have worked. Nor would reframe.

  • jamie

    What on earth is Plowing?

    Please tell me it’s not what it sounds like.
    I tried googling it, but I only found PUA forums with creeps talking about how they banged skanky girls they picked up in clubs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @jamie
      I think plowing just means pressuring her hard. As Detinennui said, he would have risked a “false rape charge.” So no, not rape, if that’s what you were thinking.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Marrying young would have been a huge mistake. I wasn’t out screwing around, I was doing my own thing. I lived on the road for 2 years working at ski resorts in the winter and dude ranches in the summer and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything, least of all a husband, house and a minivan.

    Do you know that you could had taken the road with your husband and have as much fun with him right? Why this limited definition of marriage? I had a lot of fun with my girlfriends while single but I could be having the same amount of fun with my now hubby (or even more) the only difference is that I will be having sex with just one man so I think that is the main argument against early marriage “only one sex partner” and given that I didn’t had any interest on having many sex partners well that want’s a lost.

    It’s probably a bit different where you come from (Dominican Republic, right?) but here in LA, nobody gets married before 25

    And you have to do what everyone else does, because??? Also in my country we don’t have pressures for marrying at any age. But people that don’t marry don’t whine about it, if they are miserable they are polite enough to keep it to themselves and not look for outside forces to blame for their choices. BIG difference here. Of course people here whine about everything so maybe is a cultural thing. :).

    If I get to be 30 and there really are no good men left, I can always get a cat.

    And that will be lovely just don’t whine about men not manning up to please your need of companionship needs after you are not longer on the peak of your fertility years. That is pretty much the problem, USA is filled with women roaring and miserable because they are not married after certain age and blaming men for not wanting them for long time company, if they just enjoy their cats and single life no one will be telling “marry before the bitterness sink in”, please?

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  • David Casson

    Re: token resistance vs genuine resistance

    Rookie question

    How do you know the difference?

  • SayWhaat

    @ OTC:

    Four months of something good that ends, is better than four years of nothing that never starts. I guess it’s matter of perspective.

    It is a matter of perspective, although I would question whether this situation was “good” for Summer. I’m 99% certain she was brokenhearted and took quite some time to get over it. I’m glad she fared well in the end.

    Don’t forget Deti also got dumped by his FCG, and note zero lack of sympathy for that.

    So what? We don’t know the reasons behind the dumping. Maybe he cheated on her. Maybe she was just a bitch. We don’t know, so we can’t say, therefore no sympathy.

  • SayWhaat

    He’s assuming that he would have been happy with a girl he didn’t really care about if he had gone along with her fantasy of who he might be.

    It seems like he knows who he is now, and it seems to me like he’s recognized that the person he is now would have been well off with a woman like Summer.

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhaat: better late than never.

    Oh, fantastic, I’m sooo happy to be one of the girls to provide this valuable service to men.

    -__-

  • SayWhaat

    Susan, I can’t get on your blog at work too. (Not your fault, someone listed it as a sex site.)

    Makes for catching up on all these comments at the end of the day quite arduous!

  • Jamie

    Do you know that you could had taken the road with your husband and have as much fun with him right?

    Firstly, I didn’t have a husband, so why not? I had a car, gas money and a job offer in Colorado, so I went. If I had a husband, he might have still been in school or had a real job or a kid from a previous marriage or some other thing preventing him from going. There was literally nothing tying me down. I may never have that kind of freedom again.

    It’s probably a bit different where you come from (Dominican Republic, right?) but here in LA, nobody gets married before 25

    And you have to do what everyone else does, because???

    Marriage requires at least one other person besides yourself. Besides, nobody was asking. Because people here don’t marry young unless they’re Mormon. And I’m not miserable being single, it’s a marital status, not a disease.

    What Renee and I were getting at, was the practice of former nice-guys-turned-PUAs who being resentful towards the girls who rejected them when they were younger (before they had “game”). I was one of those girls and I want it understood that it wasn’t because I was pursuing alphas, I rejected them because I was young and immature. They didn’t want to marry me either. They wanted me to be their girlfriend and have lots of sex with them, which would have been tricky since we all went to community college and lived with our parents. And anyway, the chemistry wasn’t there or maybe they were “too nice” as all these PUAs claim, but the bottom line is that I valued their friendship and didn’t want to take it to the next level. After all, it’s not my job to make sure all nice guys get laid.

    I’m glad your marriage is awesome, really, congratulations. But keep in mind that marriage isn’t a priority for everyone.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Firstly, I didn’t have a husband, so why not? I had a car, gas money and a job offer in Colorado, so I went. If I had a husband, he might have still been in school or had a real job or a kid from a previous marriage or some other thing preventing him from going. There was literally nothing tying me down. I may never have that kind of freedom again.

    Or your hubby could had taken vacations to take the road with you. One of my married friend couples always go to Burning Man and they bring their kid with them. Marriage =/= lack of freedom.

    After all, it’s not my job to make sure all nice guys get laid.

    ITA. And is not the men’s job to make sure all women that didn’t wanted to get married and have children before, get married later in life. Is all we are saying here. You have the right to reject as many guys that you want to, but they also have the right to reject you in turn.
    The issue is that many women don’t accept that and when they are done traveling and be “free” grow as bitter as the guys were in their youth, is all we are saying here. Rejection is a two way street and once you are not longer young you will have less guys to reject. Again I really hope you are the happiest single woman in the face of earth, but if you are not…accept that it was YOUR choice and no one else is to blame but you, capisce?

  • jamie

    Or your hubby could had taken vacations to take the road with you.

    There is a huge difference between going on a road trip and living by your wits with all your belongings in the trunk of your car. Couples do the seasonal work circuit too, but it’s hard because you can’t have kids or pets or mortgages or elderly parents or…basically any responsibilities whatsoever. Besides, it’s more fun for single people.

    And is not the men’s job to make sure all women that didn’t wanted to get married and have children before, get married later in life.

    I agree. But most of my peers aren’t married yet either, so it’s safe to say I’m still in the running.

    Rejection is a two way street

    I wish there were a less un-kind word than “rejection” because I didn’t completely reject those guys. The good ones are still my friends, in fact, I’m hanging out with one later tonight. I think he’s fantastic and we have a great time together, I just don’t want to see his penis. As for the bad ones, the “nice guys” who tried to gain my trust by being my friend, as soon as it was clear that I had no intention of sexing them ever, I never heard from them again.

  • Stephenie Rowling


    There is a huge difference between going on a road trip and living by your wits with all your belongings in the trunk of your car. Couples do the seasonal work circuit too, but it’s hard because you can’t have kids or pets or mortgages or elderly parents or…basically any responsibilities whatsoever. Besides, it’s more fun for single people.

    http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2009/03/22/saving-money-on-a-road-trip-with-kids/

    I don’t want to mess with you, I really don’t. I just want to illustrate the point that marriage =/= dead of everything you hold dear and fun, but adding people you love to the things you already love. We got a saying that “sad moments shared are smaller but happy moments shared are bigger”.
    I think the media is selling to much the fabulous single life, marriage and kids can be fabulous too. There is less alcohol and sex and is true you have to plan more, but there are many new things that can be as fun as those, YMMV.

  • jamie

    I’m not trying to fight either, I’m just saying that you can NOT have kids and work seasonal jobs. Kids have to go to school and stuff and they’re not allowed to live in employee housing, it’s not my opinion, it’s company policy.

    As for road trips with kids: F*** THAT
    There aren’t enough pokemon in the world to make a 7 year old happy in the backseat of a hot car for 6 days. (I know because I remember) When I have kids, it’s going to be all about disneyland, camping trips and water parks.

  • Mike C

    As for the bad ones, the “nice guys” who tried to gain my trust by being my friend, as soon as it was clear that I had no intention of sexing them ever, I never heard from them again.
    .
    Jamie,
    .
    If a guy is romantically/sexually interested in you, and you make it clear it isn’t going there, why does that make them a “bad” guy if they don’t want any further relationship with you at all. Honestly, that is pretty ridiculous. That said, many guys don’t know how to effectively communicate this interest off the bat or be upfront about it. Chalk that up to the fucked up cultural and societal programming many guys got growing up.

  • Mike C

    And anyway, the chemistry wasn’t there or maybe they were “too nice” as all these PUAs claim, but the bottom line is that I valued their friendship and didn’t want to take it to the next level. After all, it’s not my job to make sure all nice guys get laid.
    .
    Cmon now. Don’t bullshit. The reason you didn’t want to “take it to the next level” isn’t because you “valued their friendship”. It was because you were not sexually attracted to them. Now thats perfectly fine. If the attraction isn’t there, it isn’t there and you can’t and shouldn’t force it. But I think where many guys, especially “nice” guys get frustrated and annoyed is with this code speak where one reason is stated while the real reason is something entirely different.

  • Matt T

    You’re walking a fine line. There may not be anything unethical about it. But I wonder if you think that when a woman says “No” that should be respected at any point. When is it time to say OK, pick up your ball and go home for the day? It was clear that Detinennui disliked her decision but respected it. He then made his own choice not to spend any more time with her. Would it have been a better outcome if he had persuaded her to have sex against her better judgment? To take her V-card, knowing she had reservations, and then proceed to probably dump her?

    This, this is what gets women really, really upset about Game. Take your shot, and take no for an answer. Don’t try to “glam” us with techniques designed to make us feel shitty about ourselves, both tonight and in the morning.

    I mean, women trick, dupe, and lead men on all the time, so it’s only fair that men should try to do the same. Don’t hate the player (playette?), hate the game.

    Regardless, there’s a difference between a woman giving token resistance by saying “no”, and giving actual resistance by saying “stop”. Guys can figure it out.

    Finally, I kinda lol’d at the word “glam”. We’re dudes trying to get laid, not vampires.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt T

      I mean, women trick, dupe, and lead men on all the time, so it’s only fair that men should try to do the same.

      Nope, not buying it. I don’t believe in collective guilty. You’re going to cause a lot of collateral damage that way.

      Regardless, there’s a difference between a woman giving token resistance by saying “no”, and giving actual resistance by saying “stop”. Guys can figure it out.

      I beg to differ. No = stop and Stop = no.

      Finally, I kinda lol’d at the word “glam”. We’re dudes trying to get laid, not vampires.

      Haha, yeah, I was thinking of Jessica glamming Hoyt on True Blood last week.

  • Mike C

    Susan, I can’t get on your blog at work too. (Not your fault, someone listed it as a sex site.)

    Makes for catching up on all these comments at the end of the day quite arduous!

    Websense? That is what we are running. Just happened recently…last month or so. Whats funny is there a bunch of other blogs that still pass through some of which almost boggles my mind considering this one is blocked.

  • Matt T

    Freezeout wouldn’t have worked. Nor would reframe.

    Yeah, that’s my point. All the anti-LMR tricks you see in the seduction manuals are long-shots and last-ditch attempts. I mean, I attempted a freeze once and it misfired pretty badly.

  • Mike C

    Re: token resistance vs genuine resistance

    Rookie question

    How do you know the difference?
    .
    Tone of voice, language used. Firmly and matter of factly is absolutely genuine and means you better fucking stop right away. Flightly and flirtatiously is often to allow the hamster to create plausible deniability that “it just happened”. My own personal experience is with false token resistance, many women will go into their high pitch girly girl voice. It is tough. As a guy, you have to escalate, but you MUST stop at firm boundaries. This nonsense about something like “May I touch your breast now and please sign on the dotted line” is so asinine because it completely ignores the reality of human sexuality and male-female attraction. All that said, when you are in the moment, you know, and if you don’t or unsure you absolutely stop.

  • Mike C

    Regardless, there’s a difference between a woman giving token resistance by saying “no”, and giving actual resistance by saying “stop”. Guys can figure it out.
    .
    I beg to differ. No = stop and Stop = no.
    .
    Susan, I’m going to disagree with you and agree with Matt T, because my personal experience absolutely supports this. I remember one girl who said “no, we can’t do this” and then after 15-30 more minutes of foreplay she was telling me to stick it in. Stop definitely means go no further.
    .
    And people, please, maybe I’m nitpicking, but there is me and there is Matt C. People keep conflating the two of us in their responses attributing to him stuff I said and vice versa.

  • Mike C

    And that will be lovely just don’t whine about men not manning up to please your need of companionship needs after you are not longer on the peak of your fertility years. That is pretty much the problem, USA is filled with women roaring and miserable because they are not married after certain age and blaming men for not wanting them for long time company, if they just enjoy their cats and single life no one will be telling “marry before the bitterness sink in”, please?

    Here is JUST one among many
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/13/opinion/13dowd.html
    .
    She has actually tackled this subject a number of times in writing. I wish she would just STFU already. She literally is the quintessential example of everything a man DOES not want in a mate/partner.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      Re the Maureen Dowd piece, I thought this was interesting:

      So was the feminist movement some sort of cruel hoax? The more women achieve, the less desirable they are? Women want to be in a relationship with guys they can seriously talk to – unfortunately, a lot of those guys want to be in relationships with women they don’t have to talk to.

      It’s not that men don’t want to talk to their partners, or want stupid partners, it’s that they want feminine partners. If they recoil from highly charged ambitious women, that may have more to do with the woman’s demeanor or priorities than the fact that she is successful.

      The cruel hoax is that women believe their career credentials are either sexy, or that their success intimidates men. Neither is true.

  • Mike C

    But I wonder if you think that when a woman says “No” that should be respected at any point. When is it time to say OK, pick up your ball and go home for the day?
    .
    Addendum to my last comment that addresses this. The girl in question….I knew she was highly promiscuous because she was a regular at the bar, and I knew 2 other bouncers who had had sex with her so in her case, I knew the initial “No, we can’t do this” was probably total bullshit. I know Susan we are dancing on a very fine line here, but you’ve admitted yourself you know of many young women who are slutty putting on the innocent act. So it is likely a guy is going to run up into some of this false token resistance whose purpose is to make plausible 24 hours later the “it just happened”. Again, a firm matter of fact “NO, I am NOT having sex with you tonight” means you pick up your ball and go home.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C
      I don’t disagree. I know for a fact that many women will say no to convince the guy she is girlfriend material rather than a slut. Of course he offers reassurance that he respects her, and she’s peeling off her panties. Like you said, her manner will dictate what she’s really feeling, but it is important for men to know that they ultimately cannot disregard what she’s saying if she doesn’t change her mind.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Just happened recently…last month or so.

    The same thing happened with Athol (marriedmansexlife) and he is very PG13…I smell conspiracy. ;)

    She has actually tackled this subject a number of times in writing. I wish she would just STFU already. She literally is the quintessential example of everything a man DOES not want in a mate/partner.

    I know I know. Really this is all we want, you are free to make a choice but if that doesn’t work please would you just write about something else? like “the proper care of multiple cats” and/or “new technology in sex toys” “Christmas for one”, “The fabulous trips I did, for the last 20 years…” , “the joys of dinning alone in the tastiest restaurants” can you find the positive in living a lonely lifestyle by choice instead of blaming everyone. Please?

  • Mike C

    I know I know. Really this is all we want, you are free to make a choice but if that doesn’t work please would you just write about something else? like “the proper care of multiple cats” and/or “new technology in sex toys” “Christmas for one”, “The fabulous trips I did, for the last 20 years…” , “the joys of dinning alone in the tastiest restaurants” can you find the positive in living a lonely lifestyle by choice instead of blaming everyone. Please?
    .
    Exactly! That is the part I find almost maddening. It’s like, look, you wanted to become a certain type of woman, lead a certain type of life, prioritize certain things, have a certain demeanor. Great, seriously, great, more power to you. God bless you. But you know what. Most guys don’t want that…they don’t want a woman like you so just keep on leading the life you’ve chosen, that you’ve been the ideologue for, and stop complaining that us guys don’t want to date or marry you.

  • 108spirits

    There’s “Stop!” and there’s “stooop it…” <- I'm not quite sure how to present that in writing. :P

    Mike C brought up tone of voice and language. I'll add body tension. If she freezes right up, it's a clear no. If the body still feels soft & inviting, she's saying "wait, I'm warming up".

    And then there are crazies like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za7jQ1s1BV0&feature=related

    Who are surprisingly not that rare…

  • Jamie

    @Mike C

    eh…it wasn’t like that. At the time, my best friend was a straight dude. I’m aware of how rare that is and I can already hear the naysayers saying, “no…he was just trying to fuck you.” But we had an open dialogue on the subject and really, it wasn’t like that, it was purely platonic. Anyway, I spent a lot of time hanging out with his friends, a bunch of nerdy dudes who liked video games too much and were awkward around girls. They were mostly cool with me, let me be “one of the guys.” It was fun. I cultivated an appreciation for toilet humor and provided a female perspective. Sometimes one of the boys got a crush, but my best friend usually tipped me off. It was known that I was getting over a bad breakup and wanted to be single and most of the boys respected that.

    If a guy pretends to be my friend and then puts the moves on me, doesn’t get what he wants and then never speaks to me again….well, I’d say I made the right choice don’t you think?

    That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.

    One thing I have noticed, the common denominator among guys who can handle platonic relationships with women is: A good relationship with his mother. Usually, they’re guys raised by single moms.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all.

    When most men approach women, it’s because of sexual attraction. If they don’t get what they want, it annoys them. Mind you, if the woman shares common interests with the man, a friendship can continue, but there will be that element of sexual tension, like delectable food placed in front of him just out of reach.

    What you said here is actually very perceptive. It all comes down to a variation of what I said before about romance: what can a woman bring to the friendship that another man cannot bring? Since most men are attracted to women, they wouldn’t be seeking women for platonic friendships in the first place; they’d be sticking with men. After all, there’s no sexual tension there to complicate things.

    This also explains why gay men are often platonic friends with women; there’s no sexual tension.

  • Blues
    I’ve been wondering when your off-topic point would be addressed. I rejected a lot of nice guys when I was younger, not because I didn’t like them, but because there was no freaking way I was going to settle down with ANYBODY at 20. I sort of resent being made to feel guilty about this.

    Exactly. Sometimes I wonder do people actually advise women to settle down when they simply don’t want to? When I was at college the last thing I was thinking about was marriage and kids. And no I wasn’t off having sex either. The way I see it, it’ll happen when or if it happens.

    No one’s trying to guilt trip any of you, they’re trying to warn you about the possible consequences of waiting to marry which in the current SMP range from not marrying at all to having a much harder time due to male disenfranchisement and awareness of “the slut marrying in late/in her 30s” phenomenon (and before someone gets her panties in a bunch no, i’m not saying you’re sluts, just that men make it harder on all women due to sluts).

  • VD

    Do you think that detinennui should have pursued a strategy of overcoming her LMR to get her into bed? Or did he do the “right” thing by leaving when she said she wasn’t ready to have sex? This is where we get tripped up on the ethics of Game.

    He did the right thing by leaving. The ethical player harbors tremendous respect for women who genuinely possess traditional sexual morals precisely because they are so rare. In my predatory days, I went on two first dates with two very religious, very pretty women who were friends and who knew perfectly well what I was like. Both very good, decent women who ended up in happy marriages to strong Christian men with ludicrously beautiful children. There was little chemistry with one, with the other, it was made perfectly clear that complete reformation was required before anything went anywhere. Which it didn’t, since I was a committed and inveterate predator.

    To be honest, few alphas are going to waste any time attempting to overcome genuine resistance, based on the abundance principle. Sigmas might, but then, they are prone to fetishes and don’t really count. Since learning Game primarily concerns synthesizing alpha behavior, it’s clear that respecting genuine resistance and moving on is the correct strategy for all sub-alphas.

    Also, I applaud Summer’s strategy. She did everything right. Doing everything right doesn’t mean everything will work out every time, timing is a very important aspect of marriage. This is why women are well-served to focus on men 2-7 years older if they wish to marry.

  • Blues

    I wish there were a less un-kind word than “rejection” because I didn’t completely reject those guys. The good ones are still my friends, in fact, I’m hanging out with one later tonight. I think he’s fantastic and we have a great time together, I just don’t want to see his penis.

    No harm there, he is just a friend

    As for the bad ones, the “nice guys” who tried to gain my trust by being my friend, as soon as it was clear that I had no intention of sexing them ever, I never heard from them again.

    And here is where it falls apart, you assume that if a guy departed after you didn’t have sex he was just faking it, men want sex from the women they’re attracted to/interested in, why should a man looking for more than friendship with you (meaning LTR or Marriage not just sex) stay if you don’t want to go beyond that? that’s how male orbiters are made and how men loose many of their chances.

  • Brendan

    That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.

    The main reason for this is that women are not attracted to most men, whereas men are at least somewhat attracted to most women. Most men are “sexual blanks” to most women, so there isn’t the same degree of interference being run on the female side of the ledger as there is on the male side of the ledger. It’s a big hassle to be friends with a woman to whom you are sexually attracted yet with whom you are not sexually involved — it’s just one big pain in the ass in numerous ways. Guys *can* be platonic friends with women to whom they are not attracted. It’s just that men are somewhat attracted to *most* women (not equally attracted to all, but somewhat attracted to most), so platonic relationships with most of them are troublesome.

  • VD

    Marrying young would have been a huge mistake. I wasn’t out screwing around, I was doing my own thing. I lived on the road for 2 years working at ski resorts in the winter and dude ranches in the summer and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything, least of all a husband, house and a minivan.

    That’s because you are young, ignorant, and immature. Only a young fool, of either sex, with no experience of family life and children, would be dumb enough to think one will value a few years of life experience over genuine love and joy.

    I have played in a rock band and heard my own music on radio stations and in clubs around the world. I have partied in glamorous places with famous and pretty people everywhere from London to Tokyo. I once had a village throw a festival in my honor complete with a long-winded presentation from the mayor. I’ve been to inaugural balls and I’ve been to jail. I’ve raced Porsches and inadvertently blown up classic roadsters. Every experience was interesting and unforgettable.

    And I would trade all of them in a heartbeat for the chance to relive any of a hundred happy days spent with my wife and children. You simply do not know whereof you speak.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD
      Your testimonial about your life with Spacebunny and your children is one of the loveliest things I’ve ever read in support of marriage and family. Thank you for sharing it.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Only a young fool, of either sex, with no experience of family life and children, would be dumb enough to think one will value a few years of life experience over genuine love and joy.

    Ah, but without that life experience for themselves, how will they be able to truly appreciate the difference? It can be very easy to look back in hindsight to make the comparison, but youth requires its own experience.

    Many people don’t experience genuine love and joy because they themselves don’t know how to accept or give it in return. They experienced flawed models from family and friends. Or they didn’t experience it at all. Allowing oneself to truly love another may require preparation: time, experience and maturation.

    Spending time building experiences getting to know what life is like in other places, meeting others, failing at relationships—these are all things that can help open the pathway. It can be very prudent to take the time needed.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    The Dowd article quotes this article: “Women, by contrast, did not show a marked difference in their attraction to men who might work above or below them. ”

    Does this study show that women didn’t exhibit hypergamy? Seems odd.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Ah, but without that life experience for themselves, how will they be able to truly appreciate the difference?

    “Smart people learn from their mistakes. But the wise ones learn from the mistakes of others.”

    I understand your POV but I really think American society is waaay to focus in “experience things in order to learn” to an unhealthy point. Do you need to try drugs in order to know they are bad for you? Or jump in front of a car to know you might die? Is not necessary to do everything in order to understand/enjoy life.
    Nowadays info about the consequences of many personal choices, is so abundant that there is really no reason to make mistakes. And yet here people glorify mistakes. The point of learning from mistakes is not to repeat it. If you see 20 girls jumping in a pool and drowning, shouldn’t your mind tell you not to jump?

    Now I totally see that if a person never had a happy family life or/and the media tells you that you have to have a family in certain way, then of course you might think that you need to delay this part of your life. But IME you can adapt your family life to your personal style not the other way around. I mean I went to a concert where one of the numbers was having the kids (6 and 8) playing a simple guitar number. I saw the mother giving them juice at the end and then all of them hoping in the van to get on the road again to the next gig. People loved the kids playing and they are all having a nice rock band family life.
    It was one of the best things I had ever seen in stage, YMMV. :)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Does this study show that women didn’t exhibit hypergamy? Seems odd.

    Is because this are hypothetical questions. Women lie about this all the time. But once an inferior starts to try to pick them up they don’t respond and blame it in not having chemistry.
    Never trust what a woman says but what she does.
    A right way to measure this would be a survey of marriage couple by income of partners and see what they actually did.

  • detinennui32

    @ Jamie:

    “That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.”

    A commenter at the Solomon II blog had a great retort to this, and it became part of one of Susan’s posts on what the men of HUS say about women. It’s crass, but it’s succinctly reflective of the way most men view “friendships” with women:

    “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”

    Ladies, I’m really sorry for how direct this is. Here’s the way a man looks at this issue. “if I’m approaching you or spending time with you, it’s not because I’m intrigued by your opinions on the Obama presidency or your deep thoughts about the Luxembourgian economy. It’s because I’m sexually interested in you. You have passed the boner test. You make my blood run hot. I want to have sex with you. Now. And if you aren’t sexually interested in me, it’s not so much that I’m annoyed or bothered, it’s just that anything more done with you, for you, to you or around you is a waste of my time and effort. If you don’t want me, then I want to spend my time finding someone who does.

    “And assuming it’s true a woman wants to be a real friend (which is questionable), that’s great for her. She gets a beta orbiter and an emotional tampon. But what do I get? A lot of sexual frustration and chumpitude. I’m humiliated in front of everyone because I’ve been LJBF’d.”

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”

    So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?

  • Jamie

    Ladies, I’m really sorry for how direct this is. Here’s the way a man looks at this issue. “if I’m approaching you or spending time with you, it’s not because I’m intrigued by your opinions on the Obama presidency or your deep thoughts about the Luxembourgian economy. It’s because I’m sexually interested in you. You have passed the boner test. You make my blood run hot. I want to have sex with you. Now. And if you aren’t sexually interested in me, it’s not so much that I’m annoyed or bothered, it’s just that anything more done with you, for you, to you or around you is a waste of my time and effort.

    That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard. And a really good argument in favor of lesbianism.

  • David Casson

    I’ve had friendships with women that I actually enjoyed and wasn’t pursuing sex with them.

  • Jamie

    Spending time building experiences getting to know what life is like in other places, meeting others, failing at relationships—these are all things that can help open the pathway. It can be very prudent to take the time needed.

    Thanks Bb, for making my point. Even then, I knew I needed to take my time. And really, I’m kinder and wiser now than when I was 20. I’m less selfish now than I was then, you’d be making a better choice in picking the 25-year-old version of Jamie even if she is 10 pounds heavier.

    Unless what detinennui said is true and my mind is worthless, then I guess I should just throw myself off a bridge before I get crows feet.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    you’d be making a better choice in picking the 25-year-old version of Jamie even if she is 10 pounds heavier.

    Hit the treadmill before it becomes an habit to gain 10 pounds every 5 years.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Jamie and @Bb
    Read this post about Ladder theory for men.
    You can be friends with a guy as long as you are in the third ladder http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ladder-theory-for-men/

  • Jamison

    That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard. And a really good argument in favor of lesbianism.

    I’m curious…do you have any info on whether lesbians stick around and stay friends with girls that they really only wanted to have sex with?

    Myself, I definitely agree with the ‘sex now or sex later’ statement…IF that was the initial reason for the relationship. Some female coworkers and such have managed to make it into my group of friends, but I have no interest spending time with someone if my only interest in them is a relationship or sex, and I cut off the relationship accordingly when I realize that isn’t going to happen.

    I’ve had the situation be reversed on me with marriage. I personally don’t want to get married, but I’ve dated girls long-term who have. Once I made it clear to them that I wasn’t interested, they packed up and left because they wanted marriage; not a long term partnership, not FWB, not being friendly, only toward the end-goal of marriage. And I don’t hold it against them; I wasn’t what they wanted and they have every right to pursue what they want. I wish them well.

  • Jamie

    @ CrisisEraDynamo

    What you said here is actually very perceptive. It all comes down to a variation of what I said before about romance: what can a woman bring to the friendship that another man cannot bring?

    A good woman friend can validate you to other women, particularly if she can pass for your cousin or childhood friend and especially if she’s a lesbian or unattractive. It shows that you value women for more than sexual relationships and that you respect women, that you listen. One of the sexiest things a man can do is speak highly of his sisters.

    By gaining a better understanding of women, you will have better success with them.

  • detinennui32

    Jamie: you are misrepresenting and deliberately misconstruing what I said so that you can be outraged and offended. We’ll get to her opinions. First I want to find out if she is interested. If so, great. If not, I will move on. I never said a woman’s mind is useless and you know it.

  • Jamie

    @Yohami

    You’re a tool.

  • Jamie

    you are misrepresenting and deliberately misconstruing what I said so that you can be outraged and offended. We’ll get to her opinions. First I want to find out if she is interested. If so, great. If not, I will move on. I never said a woman’s mind is useless and you know it.

    maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie and Bb

    Why be offended at the very idea that men are sexually attracted to women, and that men would approach women because of this desire? This kind of shaming is the reason most of the male posters here, myself included, dislike feminism.

    Like I said before, they could get platonic friendship from men and save themselves the sexual frustration. Platonic friendships with women are possible, but few men approach women for this reason and it would be foolish to expect otherwise.

    Male attraction works differently from female attraction; men would consider many women (rakishness), but women would consider few men (hypergamy.) You cannot view male desire from the point of view of female desire.

    That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard. And a really good argument in favor of lesbianism.

    Another revealing statement. Generally speaking, women view non-Alpha men as sexual blanks. While most wouldn’t become lesbians, they would be offended by a constant parade of betas trying to get with them.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    ;-)

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie

    The above answer was a response to your “lesbianism” post. Your “respect women” post wasn’t up when I hit “Submit Comment.”

  • Stephenie Rowling

    maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.

    You know how many modern women dump a guy after the first date or five minutes in interaction because they “didn’t felt it” for him?
    Also every single of this guys had tried this at some point and only got the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” or the infamous “Let’s just be friends”. I really think there is only a minority of women that actually can get a guy that is into the friend box (or ladder) and into the boyfriend/sex box.
    Maybe you are that type. How many times had you fallen for a friend?

  • Matt C

    So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?

    Give me some reasons why I should befriend a woman I am not attracted to over a man. Good reasons.

    maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.

    Studies have shown that the opposite is true.

    This is an interesting piece on it: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html. I don’t exactly know how to interpret it, but it does show that attraction manifested physically (vagina getting wet) vs. mental are mutually separate. Whereas for men, they are one and the same. What you said is true for men, but not for women.

    http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/19/mind-reading-the-researchers-who-analyzed-all-the-porn-on-the-internet/. This study is REALLY interesting.

    Also, jamie, can you be friends with men you are very attracted to WITHOUT ever wanting to be more than friends?

  • Jamie

    @ CrisisEraDynamo

    I was addressing you directly, suggesting a useful purpose for a platonic female friend. But yeah, this format makes keeping up with the discussion a little confusing.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie re: “respect women” post

    Initially, your answer to my question rubbed me the wrong way, but then I thought about it: yes, having female friends can show that I am good LTR (long-term relationship) material and not a pump-and-dump cad. That being said, I would still need Game and I must not emasculate myself if I do want a relationship. Despite the best efforts of feminists, sexual attraction to women isn’t a crime. :)

    Now let me ask you something. Don’t take this as a personal attack: I understand that “respect women” is the modern code word for “be chivalrous.” However, is there something comparable for women today? Are women taught to respect men as a group?

  • David Casson

    I understand that “respect women” is the modern code word for “be chivalrous.” However, is there something comparable for women today? Are women taught to respect men as a group?

    HA.

    I once encountered a discussion about gender (online) and a woman introduced the topic of chivalry. Her comment was promptly followed by several others where women made lists of all the things they expected men to do for them – ‘expected’ being the operative word here. These were things like holding doors open, pulling out chairs, paying for dates, etc. Again, this is what these women believed men were supposed to do for women – period.

    Imagine any man sitting around presuming to make a list of this nature.

    Now I made the point to these ladies that I, at least, was nobody’s butler, that my chivalry is my gift to offer or to withhold as I please, and that if I was going to offer a woman this sort of care, it was going to be on my terms and for my reasons. I wondered what dignified sort of treatment the women there believed men were entitled to receive from them simply by virtue of being male.

    I was told that the gift men give women is chivalry… and the gift women give men… is to accept that chivalry.

    Talk about leading privileged lives.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Talk about leading privileged lives.

    Well the other half of the female population call this passive misogynism and will answer all this with insults and calling you out. What would you prefer?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ David Casson

    My suspicions exactly. Men are taught to respect women, but women are not taught to respect men.

  • David Casson

    I’m sorry, are you trying to intimidate me?

  • Jamie

    @CrisisEraDynamo

    Sadly, no. I learned respect for men because my brother and I were very close when we were little and I was always sensitive to the unfairness of feminist rhetoric and society in general. (example, I was livid when he had to register for the draft, why should he be made to die in a war and not me?) Sure there are a lot of double standards for women, but there are probably just as many for men these days that nobody seems to give a crap about.

    Girls aren’t taught manners anymore, the idea of a girl going to finishing school is laughable, so if your mother was a feminist, you probably have a crass streak a mile wide. I once read a story about a boy who held the door for a girl in college, only to get kicked in the shin. What the hell? That is so rude. But here is this girl thinking she’s making a point, but really she’s just being an asshole. Why do people think it’s ok that some girls are conditioned to think this way?

    I don’t know what we’re going to do about it. Personally, I try to lead by example, say “thank you” when ANYONE does something nice for me even if it’s their job, give up my seat for old people on the bus, etc. It’s really all that you can do.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I’m sorry, are you trying to intimidate me?

    ??? Why would I do that? I’m asking a simple question.
    Some manosphere bloggers complain about the opposite I was just wondering what you think is worst.

  • Jamie

    Also, jamie, can you be friends with men you are very attracted to WITHOUT ever wanting to be more than friends?

    I have and I did want more, but I guess I’m just not his type. I’m certainly not going to hold it against him. He’s still hilarious and my favorite person to take on a camping trip.

  • Jamie

    @CrisisEraDynamo

    thinking about it more, maybe the MRAs should organize a protest march. You could all buy bouquets of flowers and burn them.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Stephanie I’m well familiar with Badger’s ladder theory ;)

    @Detenennui, is your comment @ 2:49 applied only to initial attraction with women? Or to the relationship overall?

    “Give me some reasons why I should befriend a woman I am not attracted to over a man. Good reasons.”

    @Matt C., if you think that women are only good for sex, I can give you no good reason.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jamie re: “respect for men” post

    I didn’t think so.

    Several times, I have thought: if women don’t respect men, why should I respect women? When I learned just how privileged women are in society, that all this feminist talk of “equality” was just a means of cutting down innocent men and destroying masculinity, I strongly fought the urge to become as nihilistic as Roissy, Ferdinand Bardamu, or the typical Spearhead commenter. I had to restrain myself from genuinely hating women. I had suffered no divorces, no cheating or cuckoldry, and no parental abuse, yet it still angered me to see women being artificially boosted by the government and the school system.

    Realizing that I was in a better position than most men with regard to women, I resolved that I would do the following:

    1) I wouldn’t pedestalize women. I would give people of either sex their due respect, but I would not be blind to their flaws as a sex, just as women aren’t blind to men’s flaws.

    2) I would be unashamed of my sexual interest in women. If I share a common interest with a woman, I can be friends with her, even if she rejects me sexually or is unattractive but shares my interests. Rejecting someone for sex does not mean hating them. However, I will be honest with you: I will approach women largely because I’m interested in them sexually. If women are allowed to choose the men they find attractive, men are allowed to as well.

    3) No one-itis. If a woman rejects me sexually, I stop trying with her and move on.

    4) No taking disrespect from a woman. If I’m in a relationship with a woman and she is unwilling to do for me as I do for her, I will dump her like last week’s trash.

    5) Expect femininity from a woman. Feminine women are much nicer for relationships, and it softens the effects of aging or slight weight gain. If I wanted a man, I’d be gay.

    Though having female friends can help you with LTRs, the truth remains that platonic relationships with men lack sexual tension and frustration, and are thus easier to manage. There’s nothing wrong with having female friends, but there is something wrong with saying that his desire for women is an act of bigotry.

  • David Casson

    I apologize, Stephenie, I misunderstood you.

    Well, the interesting thing about these women is that they were all Catholic. I was a Catholic myself until recently, and used to visit Catholic blogs routinely. There is often the expectation in those places that you will behave charitably toward one another. However, Christianity being what it is today, the word ‘charity’ is typically confused with other words like ‘nice’, ‘inoffensive’, ‘supplicating’, ‘compliant’. That’s not charity at all. That’s spinelessness. The distinction, I’m sad to say, is lost on most Catholics I’ve met, at least online.

    For this reason, some of the most artfully manipulative, underhanded, passive aggressive remarks I have ever seen on the Internet have been typed by Catholic women. As much as this irritates me, I have to take my hat off to these ladies, because their verbals skills are outstanding. It is their business to create optical illusions of the mind, and they take their craft seriously. One woman wrote to me in the guise of a soft, plump, loving wife and mother, the kind you can imagine cheerfully baking gingerbread men with her adoring little children on a cold Saturday morning. What harm could such a woman do?

    “No one suspects the butterfly…”

    The point is that I was indeed insulted, just not openly. You know – I had mother issues, poor boy, they’d pray for me, hopefully Jesus would help me forgive my mom, hopefully Jesus would help me treat women with respect, hopefully I’d stop being such a problem.

    Open insults or veiled insults… doesn’t matter to me, they’re still insults. And they’re designed to demoralize the opposition.

  • detinennui32

    @Bb: “So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?”

    No. It is more accurate to say that ONE measure of MY woman’s worth TO ME is her VALUE as a sex partner. A relationship with a valuable, attractive woman is sexual in nature.

    It is ONE measure: one among many.
    It is a measure I apply to women I am interested in or want.
    It is personal to me.
    It is her VALUE, her worth. Not her “utility” or usefulness. There’s a difference.

    Bb: My comment at 2:49 applied to initial attraction. Of COURSE it does not apply to relationships with women overall or to my serious relationships.

    The attitude expressed at 2:49 applies to the initial stages of attraction. If I’m attracted to her, I want to see if she is to me. If she is, let’s explore it. If she is not, anything more is a waste of my time.

  • detinennui32

    @ Jamie:

    “A good woman friend can validate you to other women, particularly if she can pass for your cousin or childhood friend and especially if she’s a lesbian or unattractive. It shows that you value women for more than sexual relationships and that you respect women, that you listen. One of the sexiest things a man can do is speak highly of his sisters.”

    Jamie, with all due respect, this is silly. Any man who does this will be viewed by both men and women as either gay or a first class chump. You’re advocating pedestalization.

    Also, there are few things that demonstrate lower value than a straight man hanging around lesbians or unattractive women.

    I used to believe as you do. I used to do exactly what you’re talking about. When I would approach women, they’d routinely say they thought I was gay because they always saw me with unattractive women and never on a date.

    During the initial attraction stage, women are turned on by confidence and bearing, not by how respectful you are to women in general.

    You said in one of your other comments that female attraction is more mental. Are you fitness testing us? That statement is laughable. Female attraction is based on the man’s confidence and presence, and whether the man makes her tingle. That’s it. It is not mental. There is a female physiological response which women many times describe as “butterflies” or a “tingle in my bottom” or just a “tingle”.

    Sorry, Jamie, I don’t buy your arguments. The way you perceive life and male-female attraction is different from 99.9999999999% of everyone else I’ve ever heard.

  • Blues

    That’s what annoys me so much about guys, unless a woman wants to fuck you, is going to fuck you, used to be really good at fucking you or any variation thereof, it’s like she has no value at all. Women aren’t like that. We’ll still be your friend even if we don’t want to fuck you. Because you’re cool/interesting/nice/tell funny stories/etc.

    Not all men are like that. [/turn their shit against them] :D

  • Blues

    That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard. And a really good argument in favor of lesbianism.

    Just as sluts are a good argument for homosexuality, I.E. an absurd one.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Jamie “maybe she’s not interested now, but could be once she got to know you better. female attraction and sexuality is mostly mental.”

    My experience is that I have about 0.5 seconds to make a positive impression on most every woman, Jamie. I am not exaggerating. 0.5 seconds.

    One of my biggest frustration was the realization that most women give a longer consideration to a loaf of bread in the supermarket than I was getting in my daily life.

    (And before you jump all over me, I married one of the rare exceptions I had found.)

  • karen

    I would like to add that I was once friends with a guy who had carrot colored hair, freckels and was skinny as a stick. The type of girls that is invisible to the majority of females. But the more time that I spent talking and hanging out with him the more I liked him. He was more mature than the other guys we knew, freakishly smart, and super funny. Before I knew it I had fallen for him. Unfortunately for me, he saw me only as a friend. In fact, it was my friend “Amanda” that he was crazy about.

    Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females know other single females who are their friends, coworkers, sisters, cousins, etc. And they could set you up with one of them if they get to know you and think you are a nice guy. Would you rather be known as “That guy who just wanted me for sex” or “My nice friend who is a great guy and would make a great boyfriend for you?”

  • karen

    Oops… that should read “The type of guy who is invisible to the majority of females.”

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @deti thanks for the clarification, very helpful.

    “My experience is that I have about 0.5 seconds to make a positive impression on most every woman, Jamie. I am not exaggerating.”

    @Joe, You are exaggerating. I think it’s shorter than that! ;)

  • OffTheCuff

    Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females know other single females who are their friends, coworkers, sisters, cousins, etc. And they could set you up with one of them if they get to know you and think you are a nice guy.

    This is just horrible advice, Where does these absolutely incorrect ideas come from? It doesn’t work. Guys, how many dates have you gotten from platonic female friends?

    I’ll start: zero. Actually, it’s probably more like -500.

    Here on planet Earth, maintaining a platonic relationship with a woman desexualizes you in the eyes of other women she knows. Conversely, having a sexual relationship with a woman, raises your status with other women — especially the more overt it is. Preselection is very, very real.

    Would you rather be known as “That guy who just wanted me for sex” or “My nice friend who is a great guy and would make a great boyfriend for you?”

    The former, but mostly because your choice is false. The choice is between “this guy who is attractive” vs. “this guy who is a chump”. Within first choice, he may or may not be boyfriend material.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    OffTheCuff, yeah

    Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females know other single females who are their friends, coworkers, sisters, cousins, etc. And they could set you up with one of them if they get to know you and think you are a nice guy.

    I understand when a woman wants to keep her beta orbiters around. The quote really reads like this:

    Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females will feel lonely and less important.

    A woman hooking up a beta orbiter she rejected, with her sister, work friends, etc? never.

  • Matt T

    Decently attractive women can be worth befriending if you can utilize them as tools to gain social proof. That’s about the only good reason to befriend a woman.

    On another note, some men try to worship a woman until one day she wakes up and realizes how awesome they are and sleeps with them. But of course, that day never happens, and the men often get angry at the realization.

    Women shouldn’t hate men for doing this. They should hate Hollywood for it’s cultural programming.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?

    It’s not the only measure, but it’s the primary one. And I’m a guy who has plenty of female acquaintances in my social circles.

    I’m not saying girls necessarily make “bad” friends… but if they’re not sexing me up, they’re essentially just a sub-standard version of my male friends. Diet friends. Just one calorie.

    Socially speaking, I view my female friends a lot closer to the “last resort” category than male acquaintances I barely know. Fact is, I’m a lot more likely to have a good time hanging out with the latter.

  • Jamie

    Here on planet Earth, maintaining a platonic relationship with a woman desexualizes you in the eyes of other women she knows. Conversely, having a sexual relationship with a woman, raises your status with other women — especially the more overt it is. Preselection is very, very real.

    Actually that’s not true. My former straight-boy-best-friend fooled around with a lot of my girl friends, including the really hot one who is kinda hard to get.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Mmm I was wondering about something given the femininity post.
    Isn’t possible that the lack of femininity makes some women sub-men hence, no need to be friends with a bad imitation to the real thing?

    I mean if you had a female friend that was nurturing an supporting in a way that none of your men friend was yet you know she won’t have sex with you ever, would you still appreciate their friendship only? Or is still sex or GTFO situation?
    Just curious…as usual :)

  • Jamie

    with all due respect, this is silly. Any man who does this will be viewed by both men and women as either gay or a first class chump. You’re advocating pedestalization.

    You’re only a beta orbiter if you let yourself be. If you are really friends with a woman, you’re not responsible for buying her drinks when you go out, you take turns buying rounds. You’re not always hanging on, you date other women, you probably have mutual friends, shared interests. Orbiters act like boyfriends before they get the green light to do so and girls let them do it because it’s flattering and they get presents and favors. There is a big difference between buying a boquet of birthday balloons for a girl who is not your girlfriend and loaning a book to a girl who is just your friend.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    The truth remains that when men approach women, it is usually out of attraction. This is not some evil, oppressive sabotage operation by agents of the Patriarchy™. It is how men are.

    I do not have enough experience to contest detinennui32′s view that remaining friends with women lowers your value and thus makes you seem less sexually attractive, so I will have to defer to him. Desexualizing yourself is never a good idea if you’re looking for something mire than friendship.

    That being said, I can remain friends with a woman if we share an interest, but I would not make any special effort to seek women only for platonic relationships — that’s what men are for. If I approach a woman, it is usually because of attraction. Like I said, this shaming of male sexuality (calling them “sexist” for having urges) is what disgusts me most about feminism, and I’m not about to live life being ashamed of the fact that I want sexual experiences with women.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    CED, sorry I didn’t reply to you earlier, I missed your comment.

    Why be offended at the very idea that men are sexually attracted to women, and that men would approach women because of this desire? This kind of shaming is the reason most of the male posters here, myself included, dislike feminism.

    I am not offended that men are sexually attracted to women. And am not looking to shame men for feeling sexual urges. I was seeking to clarify if men thought women only had worth because of their utility as sexual partners—even within a relationship. The statement “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me,” reads as if that’s the case. (It would be as if a woman said about a man, “If you’re not working to support me, getting raises for me, or spending money on me, you’re useless to me.” I sure hope men would be offended by that.)

    Sure, some men may feel like that about women (P&D), but all men? I hope not, because a lasting relationship requires much more than sex.

    @Deti clarified his position that he was only taking about initial sexual attraction, and it was one measure of a woman’s worth, not all.

    It’s very clear at the very initial stages for men—the approach—attraction is going to be the biggest draw. Nothing wrong with that.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Mmm I was wondering about something given the femininity post.
    Isn’t possible that the lack of femininity makes some women sub-men hence, no need to be friends with a bad imitation to the real thing?

    Bingo

    I mean if you had a female friend that was nurturing an supporting in a way that none of your men friend was yet you know she won’t have sex with you ever, would you still appreciate their friendship only? Or is still sex or GTFO situation?
    Just curious…as usual

    It would definitely be appreciated to a certain extent. The girls I know who can exhibit those qualities certainly have my respect… but the thing is, if a girl exhibits those qualities and meets my minimum attractiveness threshold, then I’m probably going to want to date her. The only way I would want to associate with her in a non-dating situation is if she was in the off-limits category.

    This isn’t a knock on girls, but I’ve just always found my relationships and friendships with them to be very shallow and less “real” than my friendships with my male friends. That includes all the girls I’ve dated too.

    If any (or hell, even all) of my female friends would suddenly move out of the country, drop off the grid, and never be heard from again, it really wouldn’t solicit anything more than a shrug of the shoulders from me.

    But if it was any of my close buddies, I’d definitely be bummed. No homo.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Women make good friends, I have a few female friends. I banged a few of them, but oh well.

    Women have a different set of intelligences. Highly supportive, function well in certain roles where a man would try to compete and outshine, women are great networkers, make great writers, great judges of character (of other people), and the hot ones can open doors I cant.

    So non sexual friendship with a woman is different than friendship with a man, which is usually about same-level or father-son cooperation. Different animal different circuits great friendship.

    And yeah you can bang them too.

    ;-)

  • Matt C

    Mmm I was wondering about something given the femininity post.
    Isn’t possible that the lack of femininity makes some women sub-men hence, no need to be friends with a bad imitation to the real thing?

    I mean if you had a female friend that was nurturing an supporting in a way that none of your men friend was yet you know she won’t have sex with you ever, would you still appreciate their friendship only? Or is still sex or GTFO situation?
    Just curious…as usual :)

    It is a sex or GTFO situation, always. Every situation of a guy having girls that are platonic friends or having a lot of girls that are friends. It always revolves around sex being on the table.

    My cousin is a ladies man. Has been interested in girls since he was 12. Most of his friends are girls. They aren’t his friends because he’s super interested in their personalities. The girls he’s friends with, he’s either fucking or they are introducing him to a bevy of women for him to fuck.

    Another is a guy who’s best friend is a girl. He had a crush on her. 3 years later, she has his balls and owns his soul.
    ^This is what would probably happen if one would begin to befriend a nurturing girl and share his feelings with. An emotional connection forms and the girl begins to OWN HIM emotionally. Might as well save an emotional bond like this for a girlfriend.

    Last is the guy who befriends quite a few girls, presenting himself as the sexless freak of nature. He hopes that eventually something will *magically* happen, nothing ever does. He spends a lot of time masturbating furiously to deal the heaping amounts of sexual frustration.

    You can either get angry and try to shame men, or just accept that men are wired differently from women and try to appreciate their differences. I can’t control my feelings and neither can a lot of other guys (aka ALL MEN), so it’s not like we have some choice in these matters.

    I have befriended some women if they are coworkers or I live with them (on the same dorm floor), but that is because it is a convenient friendship that I don’t have to go out of my way to form or maintain. Aside from that, most friendships with women will form out of the pursuit of sex.

    But hey, I’m young, so I probably don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. This is just what I’ve seen and experienced, so it’s all I know.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Thanks guys for all the answers :) Really illuminating.
    I will add that I do still think that my male friends were my friends with non-sexual interest.
    First I’m not attractive at all I mean not in Dominican terms at least skinny and talkative. They like big boobs, big ass and non speakers. So very likely third ladder for many of them, specially the ones that had a type.

    Second I was indeed supportive in a way that no or few men would, specially in my area writing, writing in my country is gay so the straight men interested in it usually didn’t mentioned to anyone but their families and sometimes not even then. I was always helping, correcting, encouraging and so on so I was indeed doing something they couldn’t find in any men.

    And Third. Men in my country can’t form strong friendships, given that they are always competing for punani, having a close friend means that at some point they will want the same punani and as you know a man will throw another man under the bus for some of that and in my country that usually ends in a machete fight. So they could form “strategical alliances” like needing a wingman or two or needing help to get out of a hairy situation “like needing a place to bang a new willing punani that is ready, away from anyone that knows his wife or distract his wife for the same purpose” so, the only exception is gay men but I guess that comes into sex category so you have a friend that you can bang and get you more friends to bang I suppose.
    So yeah, I’m pretty sure there was no sexual interest at all, men in my country are free to express their desires so they had no reason to not reveal any other interest, IMO.

  • Jamie

    @CrisisEraDynamo

    That being said, I can remain friends with a woman if we share an interest, but I would not make any special effort to seek women only for platonic relationships — that’s what men are for. If I approach a woman, it is usually because of attraction. Like I said, this shaming of male sexuality (calling them “sexist” for having urges) is what disgusts me most about feminism, and I’m not about to live life being ashamed of the fact that I want sexual experiences with women.

    I’m not trying to shame you for your natural urges. I’m trying to understand although I think it’s a bit dumb how you allow sexual thoughts occupy so much of your thinking…I mean, think how much you could get done if you weren’t so distracted by sex…I’m only saying.

    Anyway, obviously you wouldn’t approach women in hopes that they’ll be your platonic friend; that makes sense. I was talking about friends vs. orbiters. With the orbiter who played the friend game, failed to reach the next level and bails on the girl…well, he’s just demonstrated to me that, coupled with the fact that she was not sexually attracted to him in the first place, there wasn’t enough there to sustain a relationship anyway. She pretty much did him a favor because the relationship would have been one sided and he wouldn’t get the respect he deserved; he is now free to find a girl who appreciates him.

    I think you should absolutely pursue friendships with girls if you share an interest. Being the guy with platonic gal pals will help keep social functions from turning into sausage fests. And women respond more positively to friends-of-friends than strangers. Once you get to know some women without the pressures of trying to get them into bed, you can relax and realize that they’re people like you, just different; maybe you won’t be so inclined to put them on a pedestal.

    Lastly, don’t think you’ll never ever have a chance either. I’ve seen some of my guy friends lose weight, move out of their parent’s house and get more confident and move from my “no” ladder to the “maybe” ladder. It’s quite touching to see them finally getting the female attention they always wanted. I think a lot of boys just get better with age.

  • Jamie

    @Bb

    The statement “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me,” reads as if that’s the case. (It would be as if a woman said about a man, “If you’re not working to support me, getting raises for me, or spending money on me, you’re useless to me.” I sure hope men would be offended by that.

    Brilliant.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Bb re: “even within a relationship” post

    I was seeking to clarify if men thought women only had worth because of their utility as sexual partners—even within a relationship.

    I definitely do not believe this, and your next line about the woman’s version of it makes a lot of sense.

    @ Jamie re: “orbiter who played the friend game”

    With the orbiter who played the friend game, failed to reach the next level and bails on the girl…well, he’s just demonstrated to me that, coupled with the fact that she was not sexually attracted to him in the first place, there wasn’t enough there to sustain a relationship anyway.

    Emphasis mine; that’s my thinking exactly.

    Once you get to know some women without the pressures of trying to get them into bed, you can relax and realize that they’re people like you, just different; maybe you won’t be so inclined to put them on a pedestal.

    I don’t pedestalize them. I’m attracted to them, yes, but I’m definitely not blind to their nature. I talk about them a lot on here, though, because I’m just trying to stay on topic.

  • detinennui32

    @ Karen, OTC:

    “Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females know other single females who are their friends, coworkers, sisters, cousins, etc. And they could set you up with one of them if they get to know you and think you are a nice guy.”

    Sorry, Karen. I don’t buy it. Manosphere experience says it’s not the nice, it’s the tingle. My experience is the same. Every time I started getting nice with girlfriends, they either left or said “you’re a really nice guy, but I just don’t like you in that way.”

    Let’s look at the experience with Summer. She pulls me into a private place and kisses me. TINGLE. The only thing that makes a girl do something like that is the tingle.

    And Karen, I’ve learned not to listen to what you say. You SAY you want nice guys. It’s hogwash. You want men who are confident in themselves and who MAKE YOU TINGLE.

    Plus, if it’s really true that women want nice guys, explain to me why 80% of the women want only about 20% of the men? Can you explain that? Can you tell me why all these nice guys, church guys, guys going to work and holding down jobs, guys just trying to make their way in the world, can’t get a date to save their lives? Can you tell me why they try to get dates, only to be told that she doesn’t think of him “that way” but he’s “a really nice guy”?

    Didn’t think so.

  • detinennui32

    Jamie, Bb: “The statement “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me,” reads as if that’s the case. (It would be as if a woman said about a man, “If you’re not working to support me, getting raises for me, or spending money on me, you’re useless to me.” I sure hope men would be offended by that.”

    Many women take EXACTLY that attitude toward men.

    We men gladly do these things for wives who love us (and some who don’t). I have been married 15 years. You better believe I’m out there working to support her, I get raises for her and I spend money on her. OH MY GOD do I spend money on her and our children. I will gladly do it for her. All I ask is to be treated with respect and to be appreciated.

    And you better believe that if I weren’t doing those things, my value in her eyes would go WAY down.

    But Jamie and Karen and their ilk say that all I have to do is be a “nice guy”, and I will be swimming in more women than I could know what to do with.

    Ridiculous.

  • detinennui32

    @ Matt T: “Decently attractive women can be worth befriending if you can utilize them as tools to gain social proof. That’s about the only good reason to befriend a woman.”

    Exactly.

    “On another note, some men try to worship a woman until one day she wakes up and realizes how awesome they are and sleeps with them. But of course, that day never happens, and the men often get angry at the realization.” Women shouldn’t hate men for doing this. They should hate Hollywood for it’s cultural programming.

    Word. This is what I call the Disney/Lifetime emotional porn movie. Girl has best boy buddy/emotional tampon. He is in love with her; she is clueless to that. Through the movie, he proves her love, she notices, she sees how awesome he is, and they fall in love.

    It’s bullshit. This never happens in real life. It only happens in Disney/Lifetime fantasies.

  • detinennui32

    @ Karen: “Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females know other single females who are their friends, coworkers, sisters, cousins, etc. And they could set you up with one of them if they get to know you and think you are a nice guy. Would you rather be known as “That guy who just wanted me for sex” or “My nice friend who is a great guy and would make a great boyfriend for you?””

    I used to believe this, Karen. I used to believe as you do, and I did exactly these things. Your theory looks good on paper, but in the real world it’s a crash and burn. It only works for you women. It never works for us. Women get all the benefits. Men get all the burdens. Women inevitably use their male friends as beards, emotional tampons, and orbiters. Men get nothing except a raging case of blueball.

    And when you do set us up with your friends, guess what happens? Your friends just want us to be their friends too. Your friends say “I just want him to be MY friend TOO!” No tingle. No chance for me to DHV. They have already decided I’m friendzoned, because you already friendzoned me. They think “If my friend Karen doesn’t want to sleep with him, why should I want to sleep with him? Karen has already prescreened him and deemed him unworthy. I trust her opinion, so if she won’t bang him, neither will I.”

    Great for you and your BFFs. Waste of time for me.

    Every girl I ever met that showed any sexual interest in me, I had to peacock. I had to DHV. I had to play up my strengths. I had to display my singing talent. I had to come across as cocky and confident, and show a little indifference. That’s the only thing that brings the tingle. And the tingle is the only thing that got women for me.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ detinennui32

    “On another note, some men try to worship a woman until one day she wakes up and realizes how awesome they are and sleeps with them. But of course, that day never happens, and the men often get angry at the realization.” Women shouldn’t hate men for doing this. They should hate Hollywood for it’s cultural programming.

    Word. This is what I call the Disney/Lifetime emotional porn movie. Girl has best boy buddy/emotional tampon. He is in love with her; she is clueless to that. Through the movie, he proves her love, she notices, she sees how awesome he is, and they fall in love.

    It’s bullshit. This never happens in real life. It only happens in Disney/Lifetime fantasies.

    Hoo boy. I recoil when I see such romances now. Niceness giving girls the tingle? I don’t think so.

    And regarding prescreening and friendzoning, thanks for the heads-up. I’ll keep that in mind.

  • detinennui32

    @Crisis:

    Don’t listen to Karen and Jamie. They don’t know whereof they speak. I just don’t understand where this “be friends with women” advice comes from. I have had years of real world experience with this. It does not work.

    Now, I will admit that I am a recovering beta. I did everything wrong in my relationships. I was that “nice guy” that Karen and Jamie keep saying they want. I didn’t DHV. I was clueless about IOIs. I was that best boy buddy/emotional tampon. I gave women like Karen and Jamie what they wanted, and what I got in return were Saturday nights alone.

    Where Karen and Jamie and their ilk go wrong is their mistaken belief that a woman’s initial attraction to a man grows over time. (I’m not talking about relational love, or changing feelings of a wife to a husband. I’m talking about initial attraction, initial sparks.) It doesn’t grow or change. A woman’s attraction is either there or it isn’t. She either is attracted or she isn’t.

    Joe is right. A woman decides within an instant of seeing a man whether the tingle is there or not. In those first moments the die is forever cast in her mind, and the man is put into one of two boxes: (1) I would have sex with him. (2) I would never, ever in a billion years have sex with him.

    Once he goes in the first box, he could go to the second.

    But he is first placed into the second box, she will NEVER, EVER move him into the first.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Don’t listen to Karen and Jamie. They don’t know whereof they speak. I just don’t understand where this “be friends with women” advice comes from. I have had years of real world experience with this. It does not work.

      Karen and Jamie mean well but they are very wrong about this. Women want nice added to an alpha male. Conversely, they want dominant added to a beta male. Either will work. I actually have a preference for the latter, because in my view beta males generally have better character. If a man has to choose between nice and dominant, he should choose dominant every time – it will get him further with women and men.

      If a woman LJBFs you, walk away. Don’t invest emotional or other resources in that friendship. If you reach a future point where you don’t have feelings for her, OK, but don’t orbit with all the investment on your side.

      But he is first placed into the second box, she will NEVER, EVER move him into the first.

      It is rare but I have seen it happen. However, only in cases where the guy walked away as described above. That self-respecting move was enough to generate the tingle.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ detinennui32

    Duly noted.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Seriously, do any of us sleep around here?

    “Many women take EXACTLY that attitude toward men.”

    @Deti, If a woman treats a man as a only a wallet, I find it offensive. Working to support a loving family is entirely different.

    Yohami says “Women have a different set of intelligences. Highly supportive, function well in certain roles where a man would try to compete and outshine, women are great networkers, make great writers, great judges of character (of other people), and the hot ones can open doors I cant. So non sexual friendship with a woman is different than friendship with a man, which is usually about same-level or father-son cooperation. Different animal different circuits great friendship.”

    This sounds really practical to me. On a purely network level, cutting off friendly interaction with half the planet makes little sense, regardless of attraction.

  • Blues

    Guys really shouldn’t stop talking to females who won’t have sex with them. Why? Because those females know other single females who are their friends, coworkers, sisters, cousins, etc. And they could set you up with one of them if they get to know you and think you are a nice guy.

    Karen, here’s the thing, besides what Yohami and OffTheCuff already said (which i cosign), if a woman wants to be your friend she should expect nothing else than that just like a male friend, what does that mean IMO?:

    -Listening to her incessant whining about her failed relationships or her cad boyfriend? hell no, i’d listen once and give advice but subsequently tell her to fuck off just like i’d tell a male friend with a bitchy/slut GF.

    -Doing her favors? sure, for a fee or if she pays me back with a favor just like guys do.

    -Take her out for drinks/movie/whatever etc? why would i do that to a male friend save if the previous rule applied?.

    See my point so far? most women don’t expect to be treated as friends, but as “girl friends” a higher category with superior privileges to regular friends that exists merely in their heads and that if you call them on it they say you’re a misogynist/asshole/man with ulterior motives.

  • Blues

    Word. This is what I call the Disney/Lifetime emotional porn movie. Girl has best boy buddy/emotional tampon. He is in love with her; she is clueless to that. Through the movie, he proves her love, she notices, she sees how awesome he is, and they fall in love.

    It’s bullshit. This never happens in real life. It only happens in Disney/Lifetime fantasies.

    I have a doubt, if guy lands a woman much hotter than she is, does preselection kick in or she still sees you as a friend?.

  • jj

    “If you’re not working to support me, getting raises for me, or spending money on me, you’re useless to me.” I sure hope men would be offended by that.”

    Many women take EXACTLY that attitude toward men.

    +1 , you’ve just described probably 80% of the relationships out there.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Listening to her incessant whining about her failed relationships or her cad boyfriend? hell no, i’d listen once and give advice but subsequently tell her to fuck off just like i’d tell a male friend with a bitchy/slut GF.

    -Doing her favors? sure, for a fee or if she pays me back with a favor just like guys do.

    -Take her out for drinks/movie/whatever etc? why would i do that to a male friend save if the previous rule applied?.

    Funny enough I never did this with my male friends.
    I don’t whine about cads, because I don’t date cads I did talked about my lack of dating a couple of times, but I hate whining so I just told them why and stopped. I also knew they will call me stupid “You don’t date cads because they cheat on you?! All mean cheat some are just better are hiding it…” so it was kind of a bad theme to bring up.
    When we hanged out I made sure to not ask anything expensive and have my own money to pay. They always offered and I did accepted but I never went anywhere thinking I’m getting a free meal/drink from my friend. Heck it took me like a year to feel comfortable letting my husband do that, never felt comfortable “getting gifts from men for free” and I usually always bought them presents when it was their birthdays or if I saw something they might like it, I don’t like one sided relationships. If I ever fell I’m not adding anything to a man’s life I usually start to cut contact.
    Is the same for my girlfriends except that I did had deeper relationships with the girls because they did understand what is like to be a woman.
    So, in a way, I do get why not all men want to make friends with women they have no chance to date.

  • David Casson

    Susan, nice to hear a woman not trying to stuff the usual dysfunctional nonsense down our throats. Thanks. Good to have you on our team.

    I’ve heard of men moving out of the friend zone but only once they learned game. They were not going to get what they wanted by continuing to relate to these women as they always had. They had to change their behavior, usually dramatically (as you, Susan, just pointed out).

    Though I am confused about something. Throughout my life I have had friendships with women who wanted me. The last friendship like this that I had lasted about a year, maybe two years. It was pseudo-romantic and in that way, not very comfortable, because I only wanted to be friends with her. (By the way, I’m not blaming her for the quasi-romantic dimension of our relationship. It takes two to tango. I played a part in making that happen. I’m not always the best at establishing clear boundaries. She, of course, was only too happy to blur those lines! Haha.) She asked me three or four times to date her, and each time I declined. The last time she asked, I got kind of angry. I had already declined three times, I thought. Why wouldn’t she accept my answer? By that point, the writing was on the wall. We weren’t going to be just friends. And as I still wasn’t interested in dating her, I ended the friendship, not without regret.

    If walking away is supposed to stimulate a woman’s attraction, well, I think in this case she got over me pretty quickly and I know she has gone on to date other men since then. My only mistake with her appears to have been waiting so long to end the friendship. I don’t believe she dated much as long as we continued to hang out.

    And then there’s the fact that I was totally beta with that girl. At least I think I was. I don’t get it.

    Now, I don’t know. As I write, I think those of you who are reading this must think I’m a fool. Was I? What should I have known about that relationship? Did I do anything wrong? See, I’m not one to think it’s bad to have platonic friendships with women. I was trying to enjoy one with her. I let her know that I wasn’t interested in taking it further and I thought that should have been enough. Obviously it wasn’t; you can’t turn off your own attraction to someone else that easily I guess.

    I’ve had other friendships like this in high school and college, and as they usually bring a great amount of comfort with them, I’ve taken advantage of them. Of course I learned this isn’t fair to the women involved. I tried to do better with this girl. But it looks like the only thing you can do when a woman friend likes you (but you don’t feel the same way toward her) is end the friendship. Otherwise she’ll hang onto you.

    Yes? No?

    Any insights into what may be happening and guidance on how to improve in the future?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @David Casson
      First, the fact that you weren’t attracted to these women made them want you more – it gave you upper-hand alpha status, even if you think of yourself as a beta guy. If you had eagerly pursued them that would have been beta, and their attraction for you probably would have fizzled. However, this is just a rule of thumb. I firmly believe that some women like beta guys. I do, always did. There are quite a few women on here who are happily married to beta males. That doesn’t mean being a doormat – it’s about a good balance of alpha and beta traits, as Athol Kay describes. So Game is very helpful in that way. It’s just not true that every woman wants the same amount of dominance in a man, and that it’s always a lot. Just food for thought.

      I’ve had other friendships like this in high school and college, and as they usually bring a great amount of comfort with them, I’ve taken advantage of them. Of course I learned this isn’t fair to the women involved.

      I guess I’m not sure what you mean by “taken advantage.” Are these sexual partners? If so, and you knew they had feelings, then yes that is unfortunate. Even then, though, you are not responsible for their happiness if you were honest at all times. If they weren’t FWBs and you just spent time with them even though you knew they were crushing on you, that’s on them. You can’t be dedicating yourself to preventing women from doing things not in their best interest. It’s not your responsibility.

  • David Casson

    Susan, do you think the level of dominance a woman wants directly relates to her standing in the sexual hierarchy? (i.e., a more attractive woman can get a more dominant male, ergo she wants a more dominant male)

    Regarding the girls in high school, no, I did not have sexual relationships with them, for various reasons. Not sure I was clear in communicating my interest (or lack thereof) to them. It could be that I sent mixed messages. Hard to say now.

    Okay, so it seems you can have friendships with women, without getting friend zoned if… they are attracted to you from the outset but you don’t reciprocate interest? So the discussion needs another qualifier, doesn’t it? It seems we are all talking with the assumption that the woman friend is not interested in you in the first place. Sorry if I’m muddling matters, just trying to make sense out this stuff.

  • Retrenched

    For another take on what women REALLY think of “nice guys”… read the comments to this post.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/16/tidbits/we-could-be-friends/

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan

    If a man has to choose between nice and dominant, he should choose dominant every time – it will get him further with women and men.

    The Golden Rule.

  • Jamie

    Karen, here’s the thing, besides what Yohami and OffTheCuff already said (which i cosign), if a woman wants to be your friend she should expect nothing else than that just like a male friend, what does that mean IMO?:

    -Listening to her incessant whining about her failed relationships or her cad boyfriend? hell no, i’d listen once and give advice but subsequently tell her to fuck off just like i’d tell a male friend with a bitchy/slut GF.

    -Doing her favors? sure, for a fee or if she pays me back with a favor just like guys do.

    -Take her out for drinks/movie/whatever etc? why would i do that to a male friend save if the previous rule applied?.

    If you’re doing all this, you’re a chump orbiter. With a platonic female friend, you go dutch. You have interesting conversations; you don’t listen to her whine. All favors are reciprocated, you help her move, she treats to pizzas and beers. It’s your own fault if you’re letting a beautiful woman take advantage of you.

    I don’t use my male friends as emotional tampons, in fact I rarely discuss my love life unless it comes up in conversation or is part of a funny story. Most of the time I don’t ask them for favors because I know they have lives. Maybe that’s why it works.

  • detinennui32

    @Jimmy Hendricks: “If a man has to choose between nice and dominant, he should choose dominant every time – it will get him further with women and men.”

    Brilliant.

    Let me add this: one of Roissy’s Maxims:

    “The vagina tingle is the principal moral code to which all women subscribe. All other moral considerations are secondary.”

    I would modify “all women” to “98% of all women”, and that makes it accurate.

  • detinennui32

    Jamie @2:18 pm:

    Were I single and in the active market, the only reason I would even consider having a platonic female friend is if she could introduce me to other women and prequalify me. If she can’t do that, I’m wasting my time.

    I can do all those things with a male friend.

  • detinennui32

    @ David Casson:
    “Susan, do you think the level of dominance a woman wants directly relates to her standing in the sexual hierarchy? (i.e., a more attractive woman can get a more dominant male, ergo she wants a more dominant male)”

    PUAs say that as a general rule, the hotter the woman, the tighter your game needs to be. IOW, a more attractive woman gets many offers and gets to select the most attractive ones. So she wants a dominant alpha (who is also a nice guy with six pack abs and a six figure salary). The more attractive she is, the more likely she is to get those things.

    @ David C: “Okay, so it seems you can have friendships with women, without getting friend zoned if… they are attracted to you from the outset but you don’t reciprocate interest? So the discussion needs another qualifier, doesn’t it? It seems we are all talking with the assumption that the woman friend is not interested in you in the first place. Sorry if I’m muddling matters, just trying to make sense out this stuff.”

    I think this is probably accurate, as far as it goes. If she is attracted to you and the reverse is not true, you might be able to be friends. If you are attracted to her and she is not attracted to you, you are wasting your time. If you are both attracted to each other but don’t act on it, that probably prevents you from being friends.

    I’ve done the platonic female friend thing with zero attraction going either way. It’s great for the women. It was terrible for me. Too many people thought I was gay because I hung around these, ahem, relatively unattractive girls all the time.

  • Jamie

    @ Susan

    I don’t buy that platonic friendships between men and women are worthless or impossible. That implies that my male friends (a.) think I’m used-up, trashy or extremely low-value, (b.) are secretly in love with me, OR (c.) figments of my imagination.

    What Yohami said seems the most true, Women do make great friends and can be useful. On the other hand, I think men make great friends, they like to do outdoorsy-type things that my girlfriends don’t want to do. I like old cars, but my girl friends would be bored out of their minds at a Road Kings Car Show, so I call up one of my guy friends and he’s down to go with me. What is the problem here? Is it not my place to have “boy interests”? Should I be shoe shopping and watching lifetime movies with my girl friends instead? Am I out of line by having genial conversations with men I’m not attracted to?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      On the question of male-female friendship, I think Billy Crystal said it best:

      Before I married, I never had one single male friendship that didn’t get screwed up by attraction. Not one. I’d say, “well times have changed, girls and guys are better at friendship now,” but I’ve seen my daughter have the exact same experience. She’s been devastated when guys she loves as friends pull back and end the friendship because she doesn’t want to take it further. Men and women are very, very different in this respect.

  • Mike C

    “Susan, do you think the level of dominance a woman wants directly relates to her standing in the sexual hierarchy? (i.e., a more attractive woman can get a more dominant male, ergo she wants a more dominant male)”

    PUAs say that as a general rule, the hotter the woman, the tighter your game needs to be. IOW, a more attractive woman gets many offers and gets to select the most attractive ones. So she wants a dominant alpha (who is also a nice guy with six pack abs and a six figure salary). The more attractive she is, the more likely she is to get those things.
    .
    I think the amount of Game/dominance a woman needs is more correlated to her upbringing and her personality type than her physical attractiveness. I’ve had the opportunity to be around a lot of different types. I’m generalizing here, but a woman raised in a stable 2 parent household who works as an accountant or analyst is not going to need over the top amped up game. A woman raised by a single mother working as a bartender, stripper, Hooters waitress is going to need super tight game with massive dominance. Personally, the wise man would screen for this in determining LTR/marriage potential. Any woman requiring massive amounts of active Gaming is unsuitable as an LTR and really just short-term fling material.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    On the other hand, I think men make great friends, they like to do outdoorsy-type things that my girlfriends don’t want to do. I like old cars, but my girl friends would be bored out of their minds at a Road Kings Car Show, so I call up one of my guy friends and he’s down to go with me.

    You’re missing the point…

    There are plenty of girls that have “guy interests”, and that’s perfectly fine. But you’d have a hard time finding many straight guys that have “girl interests.”

    You’re getting a lot out of the friendships with guys, because as you said they provide you with something you couldn’t receive from your girl friends. But the guy isn’t receiving anything he couldn’t get from his other guy friends, and most likely isn’t interested in the “girl things” you would bring to the table unless he’s dating you.

    That doesn’t mean you’re a bad friend, it just means he doesn’t need you and there are better options out there for friendship.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    @ Jimmy Hendricks

    It all returns to what I said before: what can a girl bring to the platonic friendship that a guy can’t bring? Jamie tried to answer, but detinennui32 convinced me her answer wasn’t true.

  • Dogsquat

    Jamie said:

    “I’m not trying to shame you for your natural urges. I’m trying to understand although I think it’s a bit dumb how you allow sexual thoughts occupy so much of your thinking…I mean, think how much you could get done if you weren’t so distracted by sex…I’m only saying.”

    I wish I could elevate your serum testosterone levels to those of an average 19 year old guy. We’d also get rid of most of your pesky estrogen. Try that for a year, and you’d get it.

    I’ve just crossed into my thirties. I like it a lot better than being in my early twenties for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I feel like I used to be insane – I was constantly thinking of booty (not the pirate treasure kind) and my drive sometimes influenced me in sub-optimal ways.

    Now, I still love me some booty. I probably get laid more, actually, since I don’t spend the majority of my time getting shot at in shitty countries. I just have a much clearer mind about it as the experience piled up and the hormones dropped off.

  • Dogsquat

    David said:

    “Susan, do you think the level of dominance a woman wants directly relates to her standing in the sexual hierarchy? (i.e., a more attractive woman can get a more dominant male, ergo she wants a more dominant male)”

    My middle name is Susan, so I’ll take a stab at this.

    This question you’re asking is actually interesting one. There are many “right” answers, a ton of grey area, and as many opinions 40 episodes of The View.

    For more and better reading, read up on what the PUA folks call “Social Calibration”. That’s a good place to start.

    In my experience, I’ve had to game women that perceived themselves to be equally attractive to me or more attractive than me.

    If you lay it on too thick with girls who see themselves as below you, you’ll scare them off (and possibly earn the label “asshole”).

    Also, an important thing to reiterate is that this is not dependent on where the girl actually is on the hierarchy, it’s where she perceives herself in relation to you. Her perception is (primarily?) influenced by the type and frequency of male attention she gets. That can change over time, and with different circumstances.

    I’m also not a super PUA type, so if one of the guys with 100 notches chimes in, you ought to listen to them rather than me.

  • karen

    So I see many guys are disagreeing with my comment so I’ll add some personal experience. About a few months ago a friend of mine started spending a lot of time with a certain guy friend of hers. She suggested one night that the 3 of us hang out together. Wow! I was blown away that night that I met him. He was gorgeous, smart and funny. My friend had suggested that he was the kind of guy I would like but she only saw him as a friend. Now my friend definitely sees this guy as her friend. He is not the type of guy that she is attracted too but he is 100% the type of guy that I am attracted to. Why am I not with him? He already had a girlfriend when we met and to this day they are still together. Neither my friend nor I think that this relationship will last (because of certain problems) so when they do eventually break up I will give him some mourning time before I make my move. That is if I am still single by then. I never would have gotten to know him if he hadn’t been friends with my friend. Being her friend has allowed her to vet him for me and she vouches that he is a great guy who would never deliberately hurt me.

    And I personally know of several relationships where a male and female were friends and then that male ended up dating one of the female’s friends. In one such relationship, the girl introduced her guy friend to her sister and they ended up getting married.

  • Mike C

    I wish I could elevate your serum testosterone levels to those of an average 19 year old guy. We’d also get rid of most of your pesky estrogen. Try that for a year, and you’d get it.

    I’ve just crossed into my thirties. I like it a lot better than being in my early twenties for precisely the reasons you mentioned.
    .
    Yup. I’m 37 now. You and I actually have some common ground (minus the military experience of which I have none), but the ex situation sounds comparable, and I did a 1 year stint as a bouncer in between respectable professional employment but anyways….
    .
    Yeah, being 37 versus 21-22 is just unbelievable. I don’t think any woman can even grasp it. There is no way to intellectualize it if you haven’t lived it. But a late teen, early twenties guy thinks about sex, getting laid 24/7. It is literally all consuming, all compassining. Monday morning…you are thinking about going out Friday night/Saturday night to try and meet girls to get laid. In a way, it really is great when that intensity comes down. Presently, I actually think my GF’s sex drive is higher than mine as she wants sex more than I do. The minus as I’m sure you’ve experienced is not being able to go again 20-30 minutes later, and then again, and again.
    .
    I’m into weight lifting and I’ve heard some stories about women who do cycles of juice, and what happens to their drive. They are probably the only women who can relate to what the average young guy lives with in terms of the intensity of that desire.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    karen, your story sounds fine. The key is that this guy doesnt sound like your beta orbiter, so he´s an actual “friend” and not a “lets just be friends” who is sticking around

    Most guys who befriend women are actually waiting for a chance, like you are doing with this guy. But I doubt you are his orbiter and I doubt you are listening to his sad stories and thinking “Im not like that I´d make him happy if he only gave me a chance”.

  • karen

    @YOHAMI,

    I think now I understand what most of you guys were complaining about. Look, I like having male friends and so do many females that I know. They can offer good conversations and different viewpoints compared to female friends. At the same time, no female will respect a guy who is her doormat. Same as a guy who won’t respect a female who is his 2 am booty call. And I have personally known one female who was friends with a guy totally knowing that he was in love with her. She totally used him in that she got him to buy her expensive meals, clothes, concert tickets, taking her out, etc. The poor guy thought that being her doormat would make her fall in love with him. WRONG!!!! She was a real bitch to him instead.

    Guys, don’t put up with some Debbie Downer who only complains to you about the guys she dates. I guarantee you that her problems are of her own making. This type of female is DYSFUNCTIONAL and you should run far away from her if you want to be happy. You can be friends with a female but just don’t be her doormat. If the majority of the time that you and a female spend together doesn’t leave you feeling happy, then you shoud re-evaluate that relationship. Because that is a toxic relationship that will only hurt you.

  • Blues

    If you’re doing all this, you’re a chump orbiter.

    I don’t but a shittons of guys do, but more than that an even bigger shitton of women take advantage of them.

  • Jamie

    @Dogsquat

    I wish I could elevate your serum testosterone levels to those of an average 19 year old guy. We’d also get rid of most of your pesky estrogen. Try that for a year, and you’d get it.

    have you ever seen that episode of Futurama where the professor builds a machine that allows the crew to switch brains with each other and then Frye and Leela try to prove their love is unconditional by becoming Zoidberg and the Professor and then getting it on? I think a machine like that would do the world a lot of good.

  • Jamie

    You’re getting a lot out of the friendships with guys, because as you said they provide you with something you couldn’t receive from your girl friends. But the guy isn’t receiving anything he couldn’t get from his other guy friends, and most likely isn’t interested in the “girl things” you would bring to the table unless he’s dating you.

    ..not even my hot single girl friends, amazing margaritas, ability to listen to people talk about their lives for hours, encouragement, empathy, ability to get out of trouble by playing dumb and smiling?

    Girls have some natural advantages in society which guys can sometimes benefit from. Yohami mentioned that certain hot girls can open doors he can’t, perhaps we can get him to elaborate on that.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Not even my hot single girl friends, amazing margaritas, ability to listen to people talk about their lives for hours, encouragement, empathy, ability to get out of trouble by playing dumb and smiling?

    Not saying those aren’t good things to have… but they’re more along the lines of good things to have when they’re convenient. Not something a guy’s going to actively seek out and want.

    Girls have some natural advantages in society which guys can sometimes benefit from. Yohami mentioned that certain hot girls can open doors he can’t, perhaps we can get him to elaborate on that.

    I believe the quote was: “If I’m not fucking you, going to fuck you, or using you to fuck other girls…”

    Sure, there are plenty of situations where having a girl around is useful. But simply being useful isn’t the basis for true friendship in my mind.

  • OffTheCuff

    That implies that my male friends (a.) think I’m used-up, trashy or extremely low-value, (b.) are secretly in love with me, OR (c.) figments of my imagination.

    Correct. Well, probably not (c), as you don’t seem to be mentally disturbed. So and/or b. You overstate (b) though. Change (b) to “passes the boner test” and then it’s correct. Love is a bit of a stretch.

  • filrabat

    Detinennui32 pretty much personifies everything I warn people against. Thanks Detenennui, and Susan for posting this.

  • detinennui32

    Filrabat: I’m guessing you didn’t read the post. You warn people against men learning from their mistakes, not pushing so hard, recognizing and celebrating femininity, being patient and realizing what they have?

  • itsxsasha

    This post has really hit me – As I read this I literally had a break down in my College’s library. It’s really hit a cord with what I’m going through at the moment in my own life, almost word for word.

    I am the Summer in Detinennui32′s story at this very moment. I am currently living through the post-cad part of Detinennui32′s story.

    I met a really lovely guy and we had been dating for about 4 or 5 months. I originally met him last year as a junior but I wasn’t emotionally available (due to a previous relationship having to end) but fate would have it we crossed paths again this year (as a senior) and I thought that I’d give it a go with him. We went on dates, hung out and spent a lot of time in each other’s company. Funnily enough about 3-4 times a week was a good ballpark as Detinennui32 described. I held out for a long time (not everyone will agree with this part) with the sex aspect only really feeling comfortable with it in the last 2 months of dating, we discussed us having sex and he said it was best to wait till I felt ready and comfortable. We never hooked up drunk or booty called each other it was all very formal and in my eyes seemed to be what I’d consider “dating”.

    Then I went home for the holidays – before hand we spent a really lovely evening together and everything seemed fine. I left and we talked a few times during the break but upon arriving back at College I haven’t heard from him. I made one attempt to catch up, hang out and get dinner like we used to do. But that was over 2 weeks ago and I haven’t heard anything from him since.

    I don’t know much about his previous relationships – friends have told me that he broke up with his ex-girlfriend (or First College Girlfriend) a few months prior to our fateful reunion this year.

    I wasn’t looking to pick out baby names or make plans with this guy however I was enjoying our time together and the way that Detinennui32 describes Summer it reminds me of how I was with him – minus the sex part.

    It hurts knowing that it’s over but I wasn’t told it was. I know that if he ever tried to contact me like Detinennui32 did with Summer I would do exactly what she did.

    But since this happened over 2 weeks ago I’ve been trying to keep my shit together and dignity throughout this whole situation. It’s hard and again I didn’t expect the moon but I did expect a bit of respect. Even if it was just a text to tell me it was over.

    Unlike my friends – who tell me to seek revenge and be spiteful towards him – suggesting that I bombard him with messages of “You’re an asshole” etc – I just can’t do that. It’s not me.

    But then this is my question what is a “Summer” meant to do when put in this kinda situation?

  • detinennui32

    Sasha:

    Thanks for writing this.

    My advice would be to remember how desirable and good he made you feel and know you can feel that again with another man who will appreciate you. Lick your wounds, put yourself back together, and after you’ve forgotten him, get back out there.

    You know you have something to offer. Someone else will appreciate it.

    Don’t send him texts, try to call him, or ask for an explanation. I agree he should have told you it’s over. But you know that already. I would recommend that you simply walk away and don’t call him.

    What do you want him to tell you? Do you want him to tell you not only that it is over, but WHY it is? Does it matter? If it is over because he wanted sex, you weren’t ready yet, and he did not want to wait, then you’re better off without him just as Summer moved on just fine without me. If it’s some other reason and he cannot tell you or doesn’t want to tell you, then he’s probably not ready to be straight with you.

    I’m really sorry this is happening to you, Sasha. We men sometimes don’t realize what we leave in our wakes. We also sometimes don’t know what we have until it’s gone or it’s too late.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @itsxsasha
      I am so sorry that happened to you.

      What do you want him to tell you? Do you want him to tell you not only that it is over, but WHY it is? Does it matter? I

      This is a really, really important point. When things end suddenly, without explanation, women desperately want to find out the whole truth. Why? When did his feelings start to change? They want closure, but also reassurance if they can get it. They want to hear that it’s not them, it’s some set of extenuating circumstances, or even “I liked you so much it freaked me out.” I once asked a guy for an explanation three years after he suddenly stopped talking to me, which he drunkenly gave. Most of the time we don’t get it, and we have to let go and move on.

      I find that no “closure” or telling of that it’s over from them leaves a door or window for their re-entry at a later date.

      Summer handled this really well. Badger once recommended “radio silence.” You must keep that door or window shut tight and locked. I’ve seen so many women decide to “let him explain,” during which time he asks for another chance, starting a cycle of hope followed by another disappointment.

      I’ve started to question myself and my role in the relationship I had with M and that perhaps it was my fault and I brought it onto myself.

      That’s not self-indulgent, but it is self-destructive. A young woman in a situation similar to yours recently said to me, “He is just punishing me for being awesome.” I had to laugh – but I thought she had a great attitude. This is a good time to rely on girlfriends for support.

  • itsxsasha

    @detinennui32:

    Thank you for the kind words. It really means a lot knowing that the stance I’ve taken one the whole post-cad dump is a good one.

    These are the questions about “What would I want him to tell me” etc I find hard to answer. My Auntie (who I am very close with) suggested that I text her all the things I want to ask/say to (lets call him) M. All day I kept looking at a blank SMS screen thinking of the things I’d want to ask him or the insults I wish I could say but nothing came to me. I just feel as though the silence he’s left me with has spoken for me.

    In all honesty I guess I’d like to know it was over so that I could have some sort of closure. I find that no “closure” or telling of that it’s over from them leaves a door or window for their re-entry at a later date. Even though I won’t be inviting them in it’s still emotionally disrupting having them pop back in – you even described it yourself with Summer.

    Perhaps an explanation from M would be “nice” in an ideal world but seeing as he’s a 21 year old male I doubt his capabilities of being able to explain to me a reason why he wanted it to be over. I think that he probably doesn’t understand really why he wants it to be over himself let alone trying to give me an explanation.

    Sorry in my last message I wasn’t clear but the one aspect to this situation that is different from yours and Summer’s relationship was that I decided to have sex with M. Half way through the 5 months I decided on my own that I wanted to have sex – I don’t regret the decision – He made me feel very safe and cared for. Even if he primary purpose was just to “fuck” me he didn’t make me feel that way. Perhaps that was my demise I gave him sex without a real commitment? I trusted him too willingly?

    All I know this situation brings all my insecurities about myself out. I start to wonder if I did something wrong, was too nice, assumed too much about “us”, wasn’t good enough for him, pretty enough or smart enough. I know it is very self indulgent to have thoughts like this but I’ve started to question myself and my role in the relationship I had with M and that perhaps it was my fault and I brought it onto myself.

  • Jamie

    Correct. Well, probably not (c), as you don’t seem to be mentally disturbed. So and/or b. You overstate (b) though. Change (b) to “passes the boner test” and then it’s correct. Love is a bit of a stretch.

    ugh. I’m not sure which is worse. I don’t much care for the idea of my male friends lusting after me any more than I like the idea of being used-up or damaged goods.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Personally, as a guy, I don’t like the idea of being the “safe” guy a girl settles down with after she’s sown her wild oats with jerks.

  • Matt C

    ugh. I’m not sure which is worse. I don’t much care for the idea of my male friends lusting after me any more than I like the idea of being used-up or damaged goods.

    I like how you go through life EXPECTING men to work just like you. Then when they don’t, you get disgusted, judgmental and turn that quality into something overly negative. THAT is going to make you real happy in life.

  • OffTheCuff

    ugh. I’m not sure which is worse. I don’t much care for the idea of my male friends lusting after me any more than I like the idea of being used-up or damaged goods.

    Well, the cool thing is you don’t have to like it. There’s lots of stuff I don’t like about how females view us sexually, and the feminists are not bashful about telling us, but reality is reality, you know? I accept you, you accept me, and we can get along without too much friction. Wait, bad choice of words. Sometimes friction is awesome.

    So, there you go. If you don’t like it enough never want to deal with it, you can go all radfem and never interact with a man again, or go all whats-her-name and bring out the nuclear public-shaming guns as soon as a guy dares exist in your sphere. That will solve the problem very neatly. No more icky men *liking* you, those horrible perverts!

    On the off-chance you actually like actual men, and not just male-flavored women, rest assured, it doesn’t mean he is *going* to put the moves on you, or will pressure you, or dislikes you as a person, or anything like that. We do have rational brains, and we can control ourselves in your presence — the fact that you are (probably) in a functioning first-world society demonstrates this. It also doesn’t mean he’s pitching a tent as you stand there or actively fantasizing about you, as it can easily be beneath his conscious mind.

    But under the surface… yeah.

    I won’t bother to explain why, partially because Brendan described it better earlier, but mostly because you won’t care.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Jesus: “Personally, as a guy, I don’t like the idea of being the “safe” guy a girl settles down with after she’s sown her wild oats with jerks.”

    I didn’t like it either as a girl. If any guy filed me away for “later” after banging sluts, I wasn’t there be found when they were ready to look me up again.

    OffTheCuff: “So, there you go. If you don’t like it enough never want to deal with it, you can go all radfem and never interact with a man again, or go all whats-her-name and bring out the nuclear public-shaming guns as soon as a guy dares exist in your sphere. That will solve the problem very neatly. No more icky men *liking* you, those horrible perverts!”

    OTC, I’ve a practical question. A few guys on here have said repeatedly that it’s not worthwhile to have a female as a friend (even platonic), and their primary interest for women is not friendship. If most men do indeed feel this way, is it “radfem” to take this as truth and not interact with men other than a cursory, polite interaction unless you’re attracted to him and want to explore that attraction? It’d save both people a heck of a lot of time, wouldn’t it? (Seems like this would also explain “bitch shields” in a club atmosphere…women clearly establishing if they’re attracted to a guy…)

    (BTW I didn’t interpret Jamie’s response as shaming a man for being attracted to her, or existing in her sphere, rather that if the male was her platonic friend, then she didn’t think that she’d have to deal with an attraction question. Because once there’s an attraction question, sooner or later you’ve got to deal with it. But I’m sure she an speak for herself on that.)

    Finally, I don’t think men and women can be real platonic friends, unless neither are attracted to each other(Badger’s ladder 3), but realistically as I said in that thread, I don’t see the average guy investing time in L3 if it takes away from L2 and L1.

    In practice, this is really reflected in the amount of male friends from college/high school that I’ve retained since I’ve been married. The answer is: none. The reason is because it’s not appropriate for me to be close to them now that they themselves are married. Us reminiscing or maintaining our relationship dynamic makes the wife very uncomfortable. (as it would for me if my husband were to do that.) the longer one is in an LTR or marriage, the less important platonic relationships become.

    Has anyone that’s married or LTR’d been able to successfully maintain opposite-sex friendships?

  • SayWhaat

    I like how you go through life EXPECTING women to work just like you. Then when they don’t, you get disgusted, judgmental and turn that quality into something overly negative. THAT is going to make you real happy in life.

  • Thrasymachus

    Jesus Mahoney:

    Personally, as a guy, I don’t like the idea of being the “safe” guy a girl settles down with after she’s sown her wild oats with jerks.

    More and more men feel this way, asking: if you had no time for me when you were younger and hotter, why should I care about you when you are older and I am more successful? An additional concern is that former carousel riders are likely to become dissatisfied with their beta provider husbands before long.

    The current sexual marketplace tends to encourage distrust and self-interested behavior from both sexes. It can be depressing to contemplate.

  • Jamie

    With such a massive conflict of interests, it’s a wonder men and women want to get together at all.

    It’s so rare that I find myself attracted to someone, I often feel that the best I can do is care about them but in a non-sexual way. It’s not about flattering myself by keeping a bunch of orbiters, I do care. I didn’t realize I was putting anyone out. Sorry.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Self-interest and distrust describe the way I’ve changed over this past month to a tee.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie, that’s cool. Those guys need to take responsibility for their orbiting. They can’t pin it all on you. I’m taking it as my mission to start dummying up nice guys and getting them to quit acting like fools.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    Good Morning Susan,

    This is more for women than for men…

    Most can afford to fuck up, because women are not crazy about looks the way men are…

    As for me… Game will save my life… And being that I want to deal with the 9.5 women of the world… I have to learn how to deliver the gina-tingles…

    Fantastic blog… A favorite of mine

  • GudEnuf

    It is rare but I have seen it happen. However, only in cases where the guy walked away as described above. That self-respecting move was enough to generate the tingle.

    I have had two friend girls who have tried to move into the girlfriend zone. These were really close friends, not women I kept at a distance. I didn’t really try to attract them, but being friends made them want to date me I guess.

    I have also had quite a few friend girls who liked me but kept it a secret.

  • Brendan

    If most men do indeed feel this way, is it “radfem” to take this as truth and not interact with men other than a cursory, polite interaction unless you’re attracted to him and want to explore that attraction?

    No issues with this, really, and it makes sense.

    Finally, I don’t think men and women can be real platonic friends, unless neither are attracted to each other

    Exactly.

    It’s so rare that I find myself attracted to someone, I often feel that the best I can do is care about them but in a non-sexual way.

    That’s not atypical, and I think more and more men are coming to the realization that most women just don’t find most men attractive, period. It’s so vastly different from the male experience that it can be hard to grasp at first, especially in a culture which i blaring at us 24/7 that men and women are the same, the same, the same. But in this rather relevant way, men and women are very different — the attraction each sex has to members of the opposite sex (for straight people) is very uneven, and that’ just reality. As for your behavior, as long as you aren’t leading anyone on, it isn’t problematic. You should be aware, however, that the likelihood that all of these platonic male friends you have are really only platonically interested in you is quite low, statistically, if they are in fact straight men. As for the guys, they need to wise up themselves and not allow themselves to become beta orbiters.

  • OffTheCuff

    Brendan again says it better than me, but that never stopped me, especially since you are so understanding.

    If most men do indeed feel this way, is it “radfem” to take this as truth and not interact with men other than a cursory, polite interaction unless you’re attracted to him and want to explore that attraction?

    Not at all… if it’s really is polite and genuine. A “sorry, not interested” in a “no harm no foul” tone of voice is all most guys need.

    Pretending to be polite but being secretly offended and then complaining to your friends over facebook about how this creepy guy dared to talk to you is not polite. A nuclear rejection is not, unless you are getting a nuclear approach. Character assassination via a video blog, Hollaback or YouTube is not — unless the guy is also doing something similar to you.

  • OffTheCuff

    It’s so rare that I find myself attracted to someone, I often feel that the best I can do is care about them but in a non-sexual way. It’s not about flattering myself by keeping a bunch of orbiters, I do care. I didn’t realize I was putting anyone out. Sorry.

    As Jesus said, tat’s not your problem. If you have a genuine friendship where you give as much as you get, but you’re not attracted, there’s nothing to be sorry for.

    So long as you aren’t leveraging their attraction to extract unreasonable favors, making the friendship totally one-sided, you’re fine. I won’t tell you not to. If you do that, then you’re no better than a pump-and-dumper or fake boyfriend… which is your choice to do, but expect it to come back at you later.

    Just don’t hate them, or get all disgusted for finding you attractive. That’s all we’re really asking.

  • Tom

    @ Det32
    Women have the trump card of sex. They decide when and on what terms sex will happen.

    Men have the trump card of commitment. They decide when and on what terms commitment will happen.

    When women give up sex without commitment, men withhold commitment.

    And why should a man give his commitment (responsibiliity, money, resources) to a woman who has given sex to many men before him? What assurances does he have that she will stay with him?

    ______________________
    Really it always boils down to character. Being with many men does not always translate to poor character. Many experienced women are not a good bet, however, the ones of good character are….Sorry but most people miss that point.

  • Liza207

    Detinennui32, was very young at the time, so he can be cut some slack for not seeing the big picture back then. What’s disturbing are those who are much older(mid-aged) and their still out there looking for those who are out of their league. I’m going to say something that may not be very popular. But I believe that there is a certain sigment of the human population that should not have standards at all – in terms of looks. I mean, at some point you just have to resign yourself to your fate in life and realize that you should forget about how your partner should look and just take anyone that will have you. Many people are causing their own misery and lonliness with standards when they shouldn’t really have any.

    There are men and women walking around with the a laundry list in the heads of physical requirements that they themselves don’t even possess and when they encounter these ideal individuals and they don’t respond to them – they’re angry and bewildered and feel that the person should look past their looks and want them as they are. LOL, crazy! I believe that there is something pyschological going on with people who are constantly in pursuit of those out of the league, really.

  • Tom

    “If I’m not fucking you now, fucking you soon, or using you to fuck other girls, you’re useless to me.”

    So for men, a measure of a woman’s worth is her utility as a sex partner. Is this really what all men think?
    ____________________
    Yes the shallow ones who think with their dicks do think that way.
    I happen to respect most women, I didnt always. With maturity and wisdom comes the vision and insight to see more in a woman than just your dick. Men arrive at that intersection at different times of our lives.

  • OffTheCuff

    Yes the shallow ones who think with their dicks do think that way. I happen to respect most women, I didnt always. With maturity and wisdom comes the vision and insight to see more in a woman than just your dick. Men arrive at that intersection at different times of our lives.

    That’s the alpha perspective, from a former player.

    Betas are born and raised with this respect for women, often to the point of pedestalizing. With maturity and wisdom, we learn they women not godesses and that thinking without our dick at the right time is OK, instead of being ashamed we have one.

    Tom, we’ve gotten to same intersection, I guess, except you’re driving south while I’m going north. You seem to think everyone’s going the same direction, though…

  • jamie

    Pretending to be polite but being secretly offended and then complaining to your friends over facebook about how this creepy guy dared to talk to you is not polite. A nuclear rejection is not, unless you are getting a nuclear approach. Character assassination via a video blog, Hollaback or YouTube is not — unless the guy is also doing something similar to you.

    I know what hollaback is and realistically, I don’t see it having any effect at all. The thing is, if an approach startles me or makes me feel unsafe, the guy is getting into Creep territory and deserves to be made fun of. I don’t think that’s unreasonable, for instance, I was leaving a concert once, walking down the street, giving driving directions to a friend over the phone when this Huge guy just comes over and picks me up, off the ground. I try kicking and smacking him, but he’s clearly stronger than me. If there had been a hollaback.org back then, this guy would have gotten the angry tirade of a lifetime.

    I’ve been honked and shouted at on the street while out with my mom and it’s really freaking embarrassing. Guys should know that this approach is never ever ever going to get you laid. (at least not for free.)

    Generally though, anyone who speaks to me respectfully, no matter what his real intentions are, doesn’t have anything to worry about. I know that’s all pretty off-topic, but I thought it worth mentioning that bitches are made, not born.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Tom: “Yes the shallow ones who think with their dicks do think that way. I happen to respect most women, I didnt always. With maturity and wisdom comes the vision and insight to see more in a woman than just your dick. Men arrive at that intersection at different times of our lives.”

    Tom, what happened to change your mind? And at what age did it happen for you?

    OffTheCuff “Not at all… if it’s really is polite and genuine. A “sorry, not interested” in a “no harm no foul” tone of voice is all most guys need. Pretending to be polite but being secretly offended and then complaining to your friends over facebook about how this creepy guy dared to talk to you is not polite. A nuclear rejection is not, unless you are getting a nuclear approach. Character assassination via a video blog, Hollaback or YouTube is not — unless the guy is also doing something similar to you.”

    OTC, I’m a little confused by your response. I’m not talking about a club or pick-up scene. I’m speaking in terms of daily practice. For example, if I were back in college and had this knowledge, I wouldn’t interact with guys in a any way except for polite interactions, unless I was attracted to him. It seems a bit cold and sad, though. Back in college, I liked being friendly to everyone and forming friendships with both girls and boys. It was fun to go out, form study groups, etc. with mixed groups. Acting with this knowledge pre-supposes that most of that is a waste of time for men…

  • Tom

    @ offthecuff
    Betas are born and raised with this respect for women, often to the point of pedestalizing. With maturity and wisdom, we learn they women not godesses and that thinking without our dick at the right time is OK, instead of being ashamed we have one.

    Tom, we’ve gotten to same intersection, I guess, except you’re driving south while I’m going north. You seem to think everyone’s going the same direction, though…
    _______________________
    Off, I really dont think everyone is going the same direction. Just the opposite.
    I am not ashamed that I still find some women very attractive. That doesnt mean I want to fuck all of the attractive ones I see any more. Mainly because I am in a relationship. If I were single I might have a go, but I would still be very selective. I know the difference between thinking with my dick, and not. Thinking with my dick proved to be pretty non-productive. Sure I got laid, but that didnt build for my future financial success. At some point men have to grow up and start using the big head. Actually I grew tired of meaningless sex for sex sake. I dont know how some guys can keep up the chase, got old for me. I prefer sex within a relationship. Im not in to the same old vanilla missionary sex all the time. I like a lot of variety of activities. I found an experienced woman of character with similar tastes who gave up the meaningless sex syndrom for two reasons. She too was growing tired of it and she found me, and fell hard for me.
    A lot of the attitudes here are understandable, they have not yet got to where I am, some never will. susan does a good job of letting young women know that they probably are devaluing themselves with slut like behavior. Young men need to understand chasing skirts has its downside also. But one can not tell that to a guy in his twenties who is getting laid a lot, he thinks he has it made.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Jamie

    It’s not about flattering myself by keeping a bunch of orbiters, I do care. I didn’t realize I was putting anyone out. Sorry.

    Contrary to what Jesus said, Jamie, this is not “all right.” I say that not with any anger or malice, but with sadness.

    What is not all right is living in the world while being indifferent to everybody. It’s really not okay to be indifferent to anybody. That’s the opposite of love, and you should not be surprised that it generates such emotional outbursts as you see in these comments.

    Yeah, yeah. I’m guilty too. It’s the true original sin, and I know of no one living who’s not guilty of that same sin. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to be better.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    The thing is, if an approach startles me or makes me feel unsafe, the guy is getting into Creep territory and deserves to be made fun of. I don’t think that’s unreasonable, for instance,

    I actually think this is unreasonable. Your feelings are not broadcasted in your head. So if a guy with little social skill tries to pick you up, unless he has a weapon you feeling creeped out doesn’t make you a creep neither should you make fun of him. How about “I feel creeped out, but there is any logic behind it? Does the guy has a weapon? I am on a dark place with a stranger and no one else here?…”
    The thing is that many people have no social skills whatsoever, and yet if a woman does something strange no one makes fun of her, but if is a guy is like “open season”. I don’t find that fair, YMMV.

  • jamie

    @ Joe

    That doesn’t make any sense. Firstly, I never claimed indifference, although this is a big world with a lot of people in it, most of whom I don’t know, will never speak to, might as well be ships passing in the night.

    Second, we have already covered the insane disparity of male and female attraction, that men are attracted to most women while women are only attracted to a few men. I’m only one person. I can’t love everyone who shows interest. There is a word for women who do that….which has been discussed at length on this blog.

  • jamie

    @ Stephanie

    Read the story included in my post. Are you suggesting that the strange man who literally picked me up off the sidewalk saying, “baby baby” simply had poor social skills?

    If a man approaches me in a dark alley, late at night while I’m walking by myself, he’s pretty much asking for a shot of pepper spray in the face. I’ve been assaulted before and I don’t take that shit lightly.

    What kind of bubble do you live in anyway?

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Jamie: yes, I can see that it would be surprising to you, that some men would “demand” a smidgen of your attention (“Oh baby-baby!”) and risk getting maced rather than be satisfied with your indifference.

    It’s truly f’ed up, yet that’s the way it is. What’s weird is that it’s incredibly rare that anyone of them (especially the ones going “Oh baby-baby!”) are even considering having sex with you. Those rare ones are indeed the dangerous pervs. The others are just trying to be recognized as a human being who actually exists.

    It’s amazing how little it takes to actually provide that. Being seen as promiscuous is a long way from eye-contact, hello and smile.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Joe, I say it’s all right, because men have to take responsibility for their own behaviors. I find it distasteful when women behave like princesses, taking favors from guys with a sense of entitlement, but the guys who do this are chumps who let themselves be taken advantage of.

    And I say this as a former chump myself. As somebody who’s sick and tired of relationships with women and who refuses to ever open his heart to another one. I say this as a newly minted alpha who’s so totally quashed the beta side of himself and is now just seeing women as a form of amusement.

    Chumps have to quit being chumps. They can’t wait for women to start respecting them. They have to start respecting themselves.

  • Matt C

    I like how you go through life EXPECTING women to work just like you. Then when they don’t, you get disgusted, judgmental and turn that quality into something overly negative. THAT is going to make you real happy in life.

    Except, *gasp*, I don’t. I expect women to work differently from men.

    Also, there is no stigma against female behavior/sexuality. Men are constantly painted as disgusting, useless, idiotic and violent pigs in mass media and people in general. All the while, women are painted as perfect angels who can do no wrong.

    OTC, I’m a little confused by your response. I’m not talking about a club or pick-up scene. I’m speaking in terms of daily practice. For example, if I were back in college and had this knowledge, I wouldn’t interact with guys in a any way except for polite interactions, unless I was attracted to him. It seems a bit cold and sad, though. Back in college, I liked being friendly to everyone and forming friendships with both girls and boys. It was fun to go out, form study groups, etc. with mixed groups. Acting with this knowledge pre-supposes that most of that is a waste of time for men…

    I wouldn’t say that you have to be cold. This is just stuff that guys have to figure out for themselves. I bet if most guys could put summon the balls to put up their intentions up front, they would save themselves a lot of frustration.

    The problem with having platonic female friends is that it is a bad deal for guys. If the guy spends time with a women he finds attractive, and she is not sexually interested in him. Every time they hang out, a level of sexual frustration builds up for the guy. The only way to get out this sexual frustration is by masturbating furiously, alone.

    Yeah maybe the girl is funny or cool or something, but all of those good feeling are outweighed by the negative ones. I HATE the feeling of sexual frustration, so I would rather have friendships with girls that are attracted to me and develop a sexual relationship than to have a friendship “just because”.

  • jamie

    See? Jesus has admitted, no-bragged, that he sees women as a source of amusement.

    Well, I don’t find being objectified by strangers particularly amusing, so I think I’m within my rights to ignore them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yes, Jamie. Of course. Why would I want to treat a woman seriously who’s fucked around with players and bad boys? I wouldn’t. So yes, amusement.

  • jamie

    It’s amazing how little it takes to actually provide that. Being seen as promiscuous is a long way from eye-contact, hello and smile.

    The thing about eye contact, hello and a smile, is that it indicates interest. I’ve done this with guys who approach me in public places, they then start demanding all sorts of personal information: What’s your name? What’s your phone number? Where do you live? Where do you work?

    It all sounds nice in theory, but really, the best thing you can do in that situation is your best Helen Keller impersonation while you walk a bit faster.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Not sure I could picture Helen Keller booking down the street at a frenzied pace.

  • jamie

    Jesus,

    Stop assuming that every girl who sleeps around does it with players and bad boys. I know some girls who go to Comic-Con and sleep with dudes in x-men costumes, or Ren Fair guys with their fake-old-english. To say that all sluts sleep with the top 5% is just silly. The nerd fetish is very very real. Maybe what you need is a nice wiccan chick or something.

  • jamie

    @Jesus

    Not sure I could picture Helen Keller booking down the street at a frenzied pace.

    Just try and visualize it for the lolz.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Nah, I’m just done. I don’t trust women anymore.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I did visualize it. It was pretty effing hysterical.

  • OffTheCuff

    For example, if I were back in college and had this knowledge, I wouldn’t interact with guys in a any way except for polite interactions, unless I was attracted to him. It seems a bit cold and sad, though. Back in college, I liked being friendly to everyone and forming friendships with both girls and boys. It was fun to go out, form study groups, etc. with mixed groups. Acting with this knowledge pre-supposes that most of that is a waste of time for men…

    Oh, no! I am not getting my point across. Mixed-sex groups are great fun in college, heck, at any time. I have great memories of nights that I’ll never remember doing all that fun stuff. They are not a waste of time. Heck, that’s how you meet people.

    What is bad for men is male-female friendships, deep ones, which to me means spending extended one-on-one time with a person of the opposite sex. That’s a very different thing from a group-acquaintance.

    A proper application of that knowledge would be, IMO, a) polite interactions with male strangers who approach you outside of a group context, and you’re not attracted to; b) yes to lots of mixed-sex group contact with great gusto; c) avoiding extensive one-on-one time with any one guy unless you have some attraction to him, but d) still allowing for the *occasional* one-on-one for short periods with one male acquaintances (say, beer runs, ice cream, a quick bite to eat, etc).

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    The problem with having platonic female friends is that it is a bad deal for guys. If the guy spends time with a women he finds attractive, and she is not sexually interested in him. Every time they hang out, a level of sexual frustration builds up for the guy. The only way to get out this sexual frustration is by masturbating furiously, alone.

    Matt C, I’ve been exactly in the relationship you describe—the girl that had feelings for a guy who was a good friend, and he didn’t reciprocate. And it was indeed torture. It got to the point where I couldn’t be around him and actually avoided him as much as possible just to spare myself the emotional turmoil. So I can completely understand what you’re talking about. I’m not advocating for anyone to sign up for that.

    Yeah maybe the girl is funny or cool or something, but all of those good feeling are outweighed by the negative ones. I HATE the feeling of sexual frustration, so I would rather have friendships with girls that are attracted to me and develop a sexual relationship than to have a friendship “just because”.

    But I’m really speaking to is what you’ve said before: “Give me some reasons why I should befriend a woman I am not attracted to over a man. Good reasons.” For you, girls are not worthwhile as friends. They’re only worthwhile as lovers/partners/girlfriends. This is what I mean by giving nothing more than polite interaction to guys I’m not attracted to. If most of them think like you do, there’s no sense in even being friendly to those guys because I wouldn’t want to open the door to false hope. And that seems sad and cold…because truthfully I would have only been genuinely warm and friendly to…1-3 guys a year! (That seems hysterically funny, especially in comparison to how many different girls men are attracted to daily.)

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Jesus

    Joe, I say it’s all right, because men have to take responsibility for their own behaviors.

    I agree with that. And in fact, I’ll be the first call out anyone not taking responsibility for their actions. Those who don’t have not yet achieved any semblance of adulthood. I can easily see them as contemptible.

    And that’s not the same as not seeing them at all.

    Jesus, women who are indifferent to betas (okay, for that read “those they designate as betas”) don’t even realize they are treating them badly. There’s one group who’s worse, though – those alpha males who actually DO realize what they’re doing. As clever as he is, it’s hard to read Roissy, for instance, and not think that he’s caught between wanting more of ‘em (so that he looks better by comparison) and wanting to exterminate them like he would vermin, just for show.

    Oh yeah. You can say “He’s taken responsibility for himself.” But it’s still treating someone as less-than human.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “A proper application of that knowledge would be, IMO, a) polite interactions with male strangers who approach you outside of a group context, and you’re not attracted to; b) yes to lots of mixed-sex group contact with great gusto; c) avoiding extensive one-on-one time with any one guy unless you have some attraction to him, but d) still allowing for the *occasional* one-on-one for short periods with one male acquaintances (say, beer runs, ice cream, a quick bite to eat, etc).”

    OTC, we posted at the same time. Lord, I’m so relieved. It would be a cold world indeed if I could only be genuinely friendly to women + 3 guys.

  • Liza207

    I know I’m late to the party. Wow! The whining and the bitterness that is coming from non-alpha males is becoming more than I can stand. Why would any guy invest so much time and energy in women that have not shown them any real interest from the get go? So they resort to bending over backwards and white-knighting (forms of manipulation, in my opinion) in order to gain their interest. And when they don’t respond the way they want or expect us to we’ve wronged them in some way.

    Wouldn’t it be better to invest time in women that were actually interested in you? Please, do yourselves a favor. I’m starting to get to the point where I’m starting to distrust “nice guys”, betas and so on because most of you are totally dishonest, manipulative and entitled. At least, with an alpha you know exactly what his intentions are upfront and I believe women respect that much more. They don’t waste their time pursuing women who are not interested in them and when she doesn’t reciprocate their interest — make her feel as if she led them on.

    I wonder why alphas aren’t walking around feeling bitter and whining all the time.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Liza207 +1

    guys, take notes there

  • Matt C

    Bb, I agree with OffTheCuff.

    I’ll briefly explain what I said earlier. I just don’t see myself having close friendships with girls without sex included. I see no problem having acquaintance-like friendships with girls.

    The really close ones, serious friendships are either for guy friends or girls I’m having sex with.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    “guys, take notes there”

    Ah, you’re right, Yohami. Honesty and openness leads to disdain. Gotchya.

    Time for another red pill.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Liza207,

    Why would any guy invest so much time and energy in women that have not shown them any real interest from the get go? So they resort to bending over backwards and white-knighting (forms of manipulation, in my opinion) in order to gain their interest.

    and

    I’m starting to get to the point where I’m starting to distrust “nice guys”, betas and so on because most of you are totally dishonest, manipulative and entitled.

    Thing is, guys dont behave that way because they are trying to manipulate you, but because they want to take things safe and slowly so they build trust first because that whats girls supposedly want.

    AND betas put a lot of effort on girls that dont show clear indicators of interest, because, betas dont know what indicators of interest are as they never get any. Let me uppercase that: BETA GUYS DONT KNOW WHAT INDICATORS OF INTEREST ARE, BECAUSE THEY NEVER GET ANY. Funny right? or sad?

    PUA world has chapters and chapters trying to explain guys how to notice if a girl has the hots for you. With key words and stuff. And guys have a hard time grasping wtf is that.

    Then when a desired girl is “friendly” thats a huge thing, which lowers the guys defenses to the point he starts feeling love. Yes, real love. But since the girl is “open” and “friendly” but is not moving forward, the guy thinks she is holding back and repressing her true feelings (what he is doing) so the guy tries to prove once and for all how good natured and nice he can be.

    This isnt manipulation, this is how guys are getting trained. The anger guys feel after being exposed and rejected is because they are, really, just doing the right thing.

    You will hear them crying out loud that they did nothing wrong and how life is unjust. I know, I was one of them.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Joe,

    Ah, you’re right, Yohami. Honesty and openness leads to disdain. Gotchya.

    No dude, the opposite. An alpha is going to be direct and clear about what he wants. A beta will circle around the girl like he was a sexless butterfly and trying to hide his erection so it doesnt scare her.

    This “hiding” is what girls think is manipulative “oh you had an erection all of this time, you are gross”, which translates to guys trying harder and harder to castrate themselves.

    You just picked the wrong key again. But its normal. In the modern brainwash, being honest and open equals being “nice” and having feelings means being “weak”, etc. So you think the problem is that you reveal your true self and thats why you get rejected.

    While the problem is that you should be projecting your real self (and augmentated) from moment one. Since you are not doing that, by the time it comes, you are already damaged goods and she has no choice but to say thanks, but no thanks.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    What you say is true e’nuff, Yohami. Honestly, I’m a *grandfather* so I know from first hand and second hand experience. Actually, I dated a couple of beauty queens in my day (and oh yeah, I had my successful nights too), so I *really* know from first hand experience.

    But what you ascribe to betas strikes me much more like omega territory. What’s this circling and hiding bit? Sounds like it’s either someone who’s very dysfunctional or a 15 year old. That’s not who I’m talking about at all.

    What I’m trying to get across is that people in general ignore and see through people by habit, and then they go around wondering why everyone seems so desperate for (their) attention. That’s true for men every bit as much as for women. Forgive me for pointing out that only “betas” are expected to be above all that – by everyone.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Liza, the whining and bitterness from the women is equally nauseating. Anyway, that said, I’m always amused at how some women think that because a guy likes them and is polite, that the second he wants sex, he was just manipulating them. The fact is that Beta guys just take the whole comfort-building thing too far. They want a woman to know that he’s not JUST after sex.

    That said, I think you’re right. It’s better to just keep things simple and keep things sexual and be upfront about it, too. That’s totally where I’m at at the moment.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Joe,

    Im just describing the regular beta orbiter, think Adam Sandler movies, almost every hollywood movie, etc. Where the guy holds and holds until he breaks, then he gets love.

    Omegas dont even circle around the girl, but watch her from the distance.

    Betas try to gain, buy and/or prove they deserve the girls attention.

    Alphas take the girls into bed before they even realize whats going on. Check girls talking about being “swept off their feet” and going with the swing of the moment and stuff like that = romance.

    While betas try to construct that by setting up dates, setting up the scenario, trying to chase and trap the girl and gifts and special moments and crap that will never work.

    And omegas create beautiful art and ideologies and try to express what they feel through multiple mediums other than real life, because they feel no one will ever understand them.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    What I’m trying to get across is that people in general ignore and see through people by habit, and then they go around wondering why everyone seems so desperate for (their) attention. That’s true for men every bit as much as for women. Forgive me for pointing out that only “betas” are expected to be above all that – by everyone.

    got it

  • Aldonza

    Liza, the whining and bitterness from the women is equally nauseating.

    How about “whining and bitterness is nauseating” from anyone. I can smell bitterness a mile away. It doesn’t matter if someone is bitter about not getting dates, or about an ex, or some events real or imagined from childhood. Bitterness is *always* anti-tingle.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Agreed, Aldonza. And this coming from someone who spent a lot of time being bitter before just deciding to change myself.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bb, fair enough. I think that any self-respecting person would avoid such types. I just happen to think that in today’s SMP, most women with the option sleep around a bit with some manwhores.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Bb:

    I’ve been exactly in the relationship you describe—the girl that had feelings for a guy who was a good friend, and he didn’t reciprocate. And it was indeed torture.

    Haha, we do have similar experiences! This was basically my life story up until about a couple years ago. I ended up cutting the guy out of my life because he got a girlfriend the semester we both decided to study abroad, after he led me on for about a year. I think that experience was what gave me the strength to end it with another guy earlier this year when it was clear we had incompatible goals. (I questioned that move for quite some time until I discovered that I’d dodged a bullet.)

  • SayWhaat

    BETA GUYS DONT KNOW WHAT INDICATORS OF INTEREST ARE, BECAUSE THEY NEVER GET ANY. Funny right? or sad?

    This is neither here nor there but I remember in middle school, I would laugh at a lot of the things all the boys said and did, because they would act up and be silly and just be hilarious. That led to rumors that I was crushing on a certain boy (never true, I was just easily amused), and in turn that boy would inexplicably become an asshole towards me. I guess it made sense — I was neither popular nor attractive, and no one wants someone gross attracted to them, haha…

    However, I have a feeling it definitely influenced the way I acted around guys from then on.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    If a man approaches me in a dark alley, late at night while I’m walking by myself, he’s pretty much asking for a shot of pepper spray in the face. I’ve been assaulted before and I don’t take that shit lightly.

    I had been robbed twice and I come from a very violent country were we got at least 1,000 women killed yearly. I’m very good at using logic and not fear to asset a situation, the tale you describe is different from. A guy looked at me and I felt threatened = he is a creep.

    Also if you actually carry pepper spray I hope you had taken the training courses, if you use it in a guy because you “feel threatened” you can get into a lot of trouble.
    http://www.crimedoctor.com/self_defense_1.htm

  • detinennui32

    Lots of comments here about whining and bitterness. Ladies, there’s lots of male frustration out there largely because men aren’t taught about the true nature of women nor what women truly want. Too many young men are taught by parents to “be nice, be yourself” and put women on pedestals. They are explicitly told by parents, civic authorities, religious authorities and society that if they do these things, that if they are just “nice guys”, we will get women.

    And then we believed it because when women are asked what they want, they SAY they “just want a nice guy who will treat me right”. But what women DO want, and what they REALLY want, is not at all in line with what they SAY they want. I’ve concluded that women say they want nice guys because society expects them to say that. And they would be ashamed and embarrassed, and they know they would be harshly judged, if they actually said what they really wanted. I don’t believe that you will hear very many girls say that she really wants that beautiful rock musician to have sex with her until the wee hours of the morning, and then move on to that dangerous, shady PUA she meets at the bar. She won’t SAY it. But some girls certainly will DO it; and many more certainly seem to want that. Many betray their true desires when they straddle that Harley-Davidson in the afternoon or that PUA in the evening, despite what they SAY.

    Men are wising up to the fact that society is either outright dishonest about it (somewhat true) or ignorant (far more likely after suffering through 60 years of feminist indoctrination.

    The answer is to learn solid inner game, build up his confidence, approach, suck up the inevitable rejections, figure out what works, and — most of all — GET OUT of the oneitis and STOP CARING so much about the outcome. There are millions of women out there and there will always be another one. Fathers should be teaching their sons this from puberty onward.

    The unintended consequence of feminism is that marriage is a great deal for women; but a terrible deal for men. I’m married now, but were I single now, I would not marry. If things don’t change, I won’t advise any younger unmarried men to marry. It’s not that men are afraid of commitment or immature, or that they want no part of women. It is that women have such impossibly high standards, maltreat men, fitness test men within an inch of their lives, and act like spoiled princesses, that these women just aren’t worth it. And the women who are in the market for men seem to want only the cads, players, PUAs, bad boys, douchebags, criminals, and thugs. This has led many men to comclude that if they have no chance of winning, why should they even try to play the game? They see what women expect of them and they don’t like it and don’t want it.

    The only way they can improve their chances is to get solid inner game and then a dash of PUA, with some dominant displays. That’s the only way a man can have any chance of navigating the current SMP. If he has no game, he might as well forget it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @detinennui32
      That’s a great summary of the beta male experience and the importance of game. Every woman should read it. I’ve clipped it so I can pull it out as needed, thanks.

  • Tom

    Lets not forget that a lot of men are shy (lack of confidence) and some are a little afraid of women (lack of confidence).
    Approaching a woman, for some men, is almost like a nervous benchwarmer coming into the end of a basketball game and has to sink a couple free throws to win the game.. Likely they both choke.
    It isnt that they are, manipulative inexperienced, nervous and ill prepared. They have no game because they have no game plan.

  • Tom

    @ detinennui32

    Please dont think there are not “nice” girls out there, there are.
    But most women want to be treated like a lady in public and they want a man who can bring out the whore that is inside most of them in the bedroom, in the woods, on the bench on that secluded path, in that bar bathroom, well you get the drift.
    Men want the same thing, a lady in the street and a whore in the sheets.
    Sex is supposed to be exciting, and women want that excitment….Kissing, a nible on the nipple, and then straight to the missionary position is not the sex life most women want.
    Sure there ARE the non adventurous purdish women, but the hidden ho`s out number the prudes by a large percentage.
    Knowing this, men really shouldnt be surprised that so many women seek out excitment sexually. (aka bad boys, musicians, athletes etc) LOL from what I hear from women, most men havent a clue as to how to be a good lover…Most are only in it for their own satisfaction…most guys live by..”get on, get off, get out…….what fun is that?

  • Liza207

    “And the women who are in the market for men seem to want only the cads, players, PUAs, bad boys, douchebags, criminals, and thugs.”

    Detinennui32,

    I’m not seeking any of the above and I don’t believe that’s what most women want either. What we want is an attractive decent guy who is has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap. At least, that’s what I’m looking for.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Liza, I think that long term, girls want a decent, confident guy who knows how to handle himself. But in my experience, I’ve known many women who’ve gone for the player or bad ass for a romp. Not complaining about it. But certainly seems true.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Liza,

    I’d say that you’re right that that’s what girls want for the long term. However, most of the girls I’ve known have messed about with players, bad asses, etc… Not that I’m complaining, but I think most girls do want that for the short term these days.

  • imnobody

    detinennui32 has it right. I don’t agree that all women want thugs, but the rest of his post is right on.

    There is an anger in every nice guy when he realizes that he has been lied by his parents, his teachers, his sisters and female relatives, his female friends, the media and society in general. They have told him that the path to a woman’s hearts is to pedestalize her and being a spineless chump. He tries and tries but he never succeeds. So he thinks that there is a problem with himself, he thinks he is a loser, he develops a low self-esteem because he sees women dating men, but not him. Then he realizes the truth and he is angry. Can we blame it for that?

    As a former nice guy and current asshole, I can relate to that. When I saw the truth, I had wasted the best twenty years of my life (from 17 to 37, more or less) being a beta orbiter, being paid with heartbreak, sadness and celibacy. When the truth about women went public on the Internet (MRA, PUA, Roissy, you name it), I was ANGRY because I have been wasted my best 20 years because of a lie. Nobody will give me back these years. When I applied Game and saw that it worked, I was even angrier.

    Now I have got over this anger, but every former nice guy has this realization. When women see this anger, they say: “you see, nice guys are not nice”, disregarding the fact that they have been nice several years before and they are not nice anymore.

    When women talk about nice guys being passive-agressive, being manipulative and being not-so-nice, it’s the hamster speaking. The hamster is able to say that nice guys are Hitler only to justify dismissing them in favor of alphas.

    Most nice guys are not this way. They have been raised to be nice, polite and good citizens, both to males and to females. When I was young, I was happy to be nice to everyone around me: it make me feel good. I was happy to have a friendship with a girl. When she told me her problems with her boyfriend, I was happy to help her emotionally. Being helpful has its own rewards.

    <What we want is an attractive decent guy who is has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap.

    Attractive = a very narrow concept for women= gina tingle producer (most men are not attractive)
    Who has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap= alpha.
    Decent = Beta.

    “I only want a square with a circular shape”

    Men who fit this description are the 2% of men (if alphas are about 5% or 10% of men, alphas that want to be in a relationship instead of pumping and dumping and are decent people: 2% or 1%).

    Are you in the best 2% of women? I doubt it because the best women don’t give crap. Giving crap is not a biological imperative. In the country I was born or in the country I live, women don’t give crap and don’t shit test men.

    Good luck with your search. Tell us how it is going.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @imnobody
      Good to see you back, I hope your surgery went well!

      I actually don’t believe you’re an asshole. If you had an asshole phase, you seem pretty clearly beyond it at this point.

  • detinennui32

    Liza said: “I’m not seeking any of the above [cads, players, PUAs, bad boys, douchebags, criminals and thugs] and I don’t believe that’s what most women want either. What we want is an attractive decent guy who is has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap. At least, that’s what I’m looking for.”

    LIza, you speak only for yourself. But as imnobody pointed out, your statements are pretty loaded. And it’s just talk anyway. You’re SAYING what you want. But I believe what you REALLY want is something quite different. As I’ve unassailably pointed out above, what women SAY they want and what they ACTUALLY want are often two very different things.

    what do you mean by “attractive”? That means someone for whom you feel the tingle. And what brings the tingle? Male confidence, power, charisma and dominance. You won’t give him a second look if he doesn’t make you tingle within a few seconds.

    What do you mean by “decent”? That means beta. That means you want him to earn lots of money, be steady eddie, and be nice to you.

    What do you mean by “won’t take any of your crap”? I think I know.

    Every beta has lived with the implicit threat from a girlfriend:

    “you either do what I want and give me what I want, RIGHT NOW, or I won’t have sex with you. And if this goes on long enough, I’ll break up with you and you’ll never get sex ever again, because I’m all you’ve got, and we both know it, and you’re a loser, and I stay with you out of the goodness of my heart, and all I have to do to get a new boyfriend is go to the nearest bar or public place and put myself out there. You, on the other hand, will have to start all over from square one. So, honey, hop to it!”

    I know this, because I’ve lived it. I suspect imnobody has too.

    No, Liza, what you really mean is that you want to be able to fitness test him within an inch of his life and have him pass. You WANT to be able to treat him like crap. So I don’t buy it.

    And if you want a decent guy who will be nice to you, how about you being nice to him? How about not flinging him the fitness tests? How about being straight up with him? Did you ever think that that might help you find the guy you’re looking for?

  • detinennui32

    I went back and read imnobody’s post. He is exactly right, and explained it better than I did.

    I am 43 years old. I stumbled onto the manosphere through Roissy about 5 months ago.

    I have learned more about women and male-female relationships in the past 5 months than I had in the previous 30 years, the last 15 of which being married.

    I had tried being nice. I have tried being kind. I have tried changing myself. All this does is cause seething contempt in a woman. She hates it when her man tries to change himself, or be nice, to please her.

    About 3 months ago, I ran game on my wife. I walked away from sex because she was fitness testing me. I just said, “ahh, forget it”. She was stunned, and a little angry. I stood my ground. I needed to show her she doesn’t have me wrapped around her little finger. I could not believe how it worked.

    Then I had to do it again. Without going into details, after she told me some things and started fitness testing me, I told her straight out: “I will not stay in a marriage in which I am not respected. I will do what I have to do to protect myself. If you cannot accept me as I am, then perhaps you would be happier without me. I don’t have to prove myself to you. I don’t have to prove my worth and value to you, because I’ve already done that by working, supporting you and our children for 15 years, and giving you the lifestyle you wanted. In fact, it is YOU who needs to prove your worth and value to ME.”

    She ended that fitness test IMMEDIATELY. And it caused her to examine some things about herself. And oh my God, did she get to work proving herself.

    Men, game works. It works on all women, everywhere. It works on dates, girlfriends, LTRs and wives. I could. Not. Believe. how well this worked on her.

    LIza, if you want that “attractive, decent guy with confidence in himself who won’t take any of my crap”, then I suggest you get to work proving yourself to a guy why you’re worth his time, attention and resources. And you’re not going to prove it with a career, a salary or accomplishments. The way you prove it is with a pleasing physical appearance, a kind disposition, an optimistic outlook, and by being pleasant to be around. You find a way to fit into his life, not the other way around.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “What we want is an attractive decent guy who is has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap. At least, that’s what I’m looking for.”

    @detinennui32 I’ve made that statement in the past. If I were single, I’d make it today. I’m not understanding how it’s “loaded.”

    “what do you mean by “attractive”? That means someone for whom you feel the tingle. And what brings the tingle? Male confidence, power, charisma and dominance. You won’t give him a second look if he doesn’t make you tingle within a few seconds.”

    For me, attractiveness in a male was someone who was intelligent and confident. That meant I had to spend the time seeing if they were attractive to me. Participate in conversations, see how they interacted with people, etc. Physical qualities were part of it too. This took more than “a few seconds.” In the best cases, it took quite a few months to establish.

    “What do you mean by “decent”? That means beta. That means you want him to earn lots of money, be steady eddie, and be nice to you.”

    Decent for me meant: he had strong character, acted from those characteristics, and dealt honestly with others and himself. He did what he’d say he do. Money wasn’t a factor at all. I definitely wanted him to treat me well too.

    “What do you mean by “won’t take any of your crap”? I think I know.”

    It meant he could debate intelligently with me, and that we’d have a great give and take. If I ever treated him in a way he didn’t like, he’d let me know. And I would let him know as well, if I felt he was treating me badly as well.

    That statement worked out well for me. I married early, and am still happily married to the same person. How was I lying to myself and to the guys that I was interested in by saying that? Help me to understand where the lie is.

  • Aldonza

    @detinennui32

    Then I had to do it again. Without going into details, after she told me some things and started fitness testing me, I told her straight out: “I will not stay in a marriage in which I am not respected. I will do what I have to do to protect myself. If you cannot accept me as I am, then perhaps you would be happier without me. I don’t have to prove myself to you. I don’t have to prove my worth and value to you, because I’ve already done that by working, supporting you and our children for 15 years, and giving you the lifestyle you wanted. In fact, it is YOU who needs to prove your worth and value to ME.”

    What you described is “Inner Game” or as I prefer to call it, “being a man instead of a mouse.” It gets so frustrating to see younger guys here and other blogs, flush with the knowledge of “the red pill”, angry at women, the world, and themselves and trying to convince themselves and others that treating women like crap is the only way.

    You didn’t treat your wife like crap. You enacted healthy and reasonable boundaries for her behavior and your expectations of your relationship. And she responded positively, as most women (people) do.

    Guys, we actually do want decent guys who treat us nice. What emotionally healthy women don’t want is someone we can walk all over, because if I can walk all over a guy, so can everyone else in his life. His ex, his boss, his kids…whatever.

    So, you can learn a bunch of “magic tricks” designed to trigger the rutting instinct in a drunk club slut, or you can reshape your entire life by being more firm about your own needs and wants with *everyone* around you. It isn’t just women who will respond to that…it’s the world.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You didn’t treat your wife like crap. You enacted healthy and reasonable boundaries for her behavior and your expectations of your relationship. And she responded positively, as most women (people) do.

      Guys, we actually do want decent guys who treat us nice. What emotionally healthy women don’t want is someone we can walk all over, because if I can walk all over a guy, so can everyone else in his life. His ex, his boss, his kids…whatever.

      So, you can learn a bunch of “magic tricks” designed to trigger the rutting instinct in a drunk club slut, or you can reshape your entire life by being more firm about your own needs and wants with *everyone* around you. It isn’t just women who will respond to that…it’s the world.

      Confession: Aldonza just gave me a tingle. I cosign everything she says here.

  • Liza207

    “I’d say that you’re right that that’s what girls want for the long term. However, most of the girls I’ve known have messed about with players, bad asses, etc… Not that I’m complaining, but I think most girls do want that for the short term these days.”

    Jesus,

    You’re right. Most women do desire bad boys for short-term interactions and also when we’re very young but we eventually grow out of this phase (and it is a phase). Men go through this as well.

  • Liza207

    Bd,

    Thanks for clearly explaining what I stated in my comment to detinennui32. I thought what I said didn’t really need any explaining. But these guys have become so cynical that they can’t see that there are women (not girls) who want exactly what you and I described. They are way too obsessed with the female equivalents of the bad boy to see that there are female equivalents of the nice guy. I mean, men are not different in that they too gravitate to women who don’t treat them well. I have seen this at play most of my life – guys falling all over themselves to be with the bad or easy girls while nice girls like myself would get shelved because we don’t “give it up”. The bad easy girls (and bitchy women do really well with men, too) got all the dates and all the attention, so that’s why I don’t blame women for behaving in this manner because they are getting a lot of validation and positive reinforcement not to mention a shit load of attention for men, whether it’s negative or positive.

  • Liza207

    “Liza, if you want that “attractive, decent guy with confidence in himself who won’t take any of my crap”, then I suggest you get to work proving yourself to a guy why you’re worth his time, attention and resources. And you’re not going to prove it with a career, a salary or accomplishments. The way you prove it is with a pleasing physical appearance, a kind disposition, an optimistic outlook, and by being pleasant to be around. You find a way to fit into his life, not the other way around.”

    detinennui32,

    I am all those things you described (all of them) and most of the men that have approached me were abusive jerks who saw my pleasant personality and kindness as weakness to be exploited and manipulated. But I have always had enough self-respect and self-esteem to walk away from these guys. I’m not angry or bitter I just know that I should stay away from men that don’t appreciate me.

  • detinennui32

    After giving this more thought, I realize this:

    1. Women’s natures are not going to change. They are here to stay.
    2. Game is not going to change. It is here to stay.

    The problem is not women’s natures, it is the lack of education about women’s natures. Young boys should be getting this education the moment they start puberty. There are several things going on:

    1. Feminism told women they could “have it all” — a high powered career, children, and a satisfying marriage. High powered career women have to become more like men to do those jobs — they have to be hardened, toughened, focused on problem solving, and single-minded. They take those attributes home with them from the office, and apply them to their relationships. Since a man who has invested enough to marry a woman like this wants her to be happy, he becomes submissive and compliant. But as game teaches, women want dominant and assertive men, and so these women lose the tingle and start seeking it elsewhere.

    2. Most childcare and rearing devolves on women. Boys ask their mothers what they should do to attract and get women, and what women want in men. After all, who better to ask what women like and want than a woman he trusts? The only woman a 12 year old boy he really trusts is Mom. Being a typical woman, Mom does not understand hypergamy or fitness testing despite her exhibition of these tendencies on a daily basis. She can’t articulate them because she herself doesn’t know or understand these deeply subconscious parts of her nature. She just knows she likes confident, dominant men, but they usually aren’t very nice. Believing the best in her son and believing that he’ll be naturally confident and dominant, she tells him to “be nice, and be yourself”.

    3. Many boys don’t talk to their fathers about women, or what women want, or what women like. Many boys don’t even live with their fathers. And many fathers who do live with their sons show even less understanding of women.

    Over the past 50 years, most men married to the mothers of their children have learned to navigate the workplace and home with beta attributes: Compliance, stability, peacemaking, supplication, pleasing the wife, steady breadwinning. Many of those men have to work with women on a daily basis. Some have femaie bosses. They have had to suppress natural alpha tendencies of dominance and confidence.

    Feminism has lied to men and women that male dominance is violence, aggression and implied threats of rape and sexual assault.

    Feminism has lied to men and women that male confidence is arrogance, unwarranted cockiness, in-your-face swagger and braggadocio, and male chauvinism.

    Feminism has lied to men and women that a man’s natural tendency to approach and pursue women is aggression and sexism.

    Feminism has lied to men and women that a man’s natural tendency to appreciate a woman’s physical attributes and youth is shallow sexism, “oppressive patriarchy”, a “false social construct”, and “lookism”.

    And over the past 50 years, men have actually believed these lies.

    Many fathers hem and haw to their sons about women due to their being bludgeoned about the head with feminism’s messages over the last 50 years. He’s probably also failed lots of fitness tests, had his wife act like a harridan and a spoiled entitlement princess, and complain and nag him constantly.

    So when his son asks him about women, and what they want, and what they like, Dad probably says things like this:

    “Ehh, you know, son, women are more or less the same as men….”

    “Be nice to those girls, son. One might be your boss someday.”

    “I dunno, son. You know, I just… I dunno. Women are hard to figure out… Can’t live with ‘en, can’t live without ‘em…. Who knows what they want?

    “Just keep your d*ck in your pants. You’re playing house and playing with fire, son.” (This statement right here is the entire sum and substance of my own father’s instructions to me about women. He never told me anything else. At all. Ever.

    So that’s what I think is the problem.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Liza,

    I’m not sure that that is most men’s experience. Personally, before very recently, I only sought girls for relationships, not short term interactions. And I know many other men for which the same could be said. And I realize that the bad boy thing is for short term and mostly when women are young. However, I have no desire to play the nice guy and deal with a woman’s crap after she went out and had her short term interactions with bad asses and players that didn’t have much respect for her as a person.

    For a long while I was actually clueless that that was the norm. I thought that it was the bad and easy girls that the bad boys were getting action from, but recently I started seeing things for how they really are. Then I spent a while being bitter, realizing that the woman I was engaged to had sown all her wild oats with “cads” before becoming a thoroughly respectable woman with me. Then I stopped being bitter and just broke it off with her, deciding that what’s good for the gander is good for the goose. Now if I’m seeing women as sources of entertainment and amusement, I know I’m not using them any differently than most women use the bad boys.

    And now I’d advise any man against being “nice” in a relationship, because most women today are insidiously co-dependent: clinging to bad boys now and then to add some excitment to their mundane lives and clinging to good guys for security. Frankly, that’s my take on the whole dual mating strategy; it’s a dichotomous co-dependence.

    Good luck finding a good guy to deal with your crap.

  • detinennui32

    The talk I will give my son will go something like this:

    Son, I know you’ve probably talked to your mom about girls and sex. That’s fine, but I want you to listen to me.

    What I am about to tell you about women is not a judgment about women. It is about women’s natures. It is not good or evil, right or wrong. This is just the way women are.

    Women hold the sex card. They decide when and under what circumstances sex happens. You hold the investment and commitment card. You decide how much time, money and resources you will give women, how much commitment you will give them, and when that commitment will be made.

    Men display themselves to women. Women choose men based on the displays they see and discern. Your attractiveness to a woman will depend on the display you make to them: your body and how it looks, the confidence you have in yourself, your ability to dominate and influence situations, and your control over yourself and your circumstances.

    Men are attracted to a woman’s physical attributes, youth, and a pleasing personality. Women are attracted to male confidence, dominance and projections of power and charisma.

    The way you attract women is to be the best man you can be. Work on your body and keep it reasonably fit. At least make it look like you care about how your body looks. Do your own thing. Do things you enjoy. Get good at something. Do not sit on your behind at home, watching TV or surfing the internet. Get out there and do things, meet people and go places. Have a good cadre of male friends and when you get with a girl, DO NOT DITCH THEM. Have a life separate from your girlfriend. You want her in your life, but you do not NEED her. If she fits into your life, great. If she doesn’t, then end it and move on. Make a life plan for yourself and work on it. Decide what you want to be and work on it.

    Do not listen to what girls say they want. I do not care what your mother has told you. The last thing you should do is “be nice, and be yourself”. Girls do not want “nice guys”. They want confident guys.

    I do not care what anyone else has told you. Men and women are very different. They do not approach sex or male-female relationships in the same way. A woman’s view of men is very different from your view of women.

    Women are not naturally designed to stay with one man. They are designed to seek out and be with the BEST man they can find.

    You think that most girls and women are hot. You want lots of women — sexual quantity. Women are not like that. Most women will not find you sexually attractive. A woman wants the best men — sexual primacy. A woman goes through a series of men because she wants the best men. If she believes you are the best, she will select you until a better one comes along.

    Learn indicators of interest that women give you. Learn what they do that shows they are attracted to you. They are:

    1. Going out of her way to see you or talk to you
    2. Downward chin tilt when averting gaze
    3. Smiling, laughing
    4. Letting you into her personal space
    5. Light touching

    If you don’t start seeing IOIs in five minutes, bail out and move on. And when a girl says she just wants to be your friend, what she is saying is “I am not sexually interested in you”. And when she says this, politely bail out and move on.

    The thing to remember is this: THERE WILL ALWAYS BE ANOTHER WOMAN. There are many, many women out there. When (not if, WHEN) one breaks up with you, there will always be another. If you approach and she rejects you, there will always be another. If a date doesn’t work out, there will always be another.

    You are going to be rejected a lot. You need to accept that now, deal with it now, and DON’T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.

    Girls are going to break up with you. There is no getting around this. When this happens, you need to accept it, take the time to get over it, shake it off, and move on. If you did something to cause it, find out what it is (you will know what it is). If it was wrong or counterproductive, correct it so you don’t do it again with the next one. Don’t beg her to stay with you. Don’t ask for another chance or tell her you’ll change. Whatever you do, DO NOT get hung up on the idea that this girl is the only one for you. It is not true. If she did not like you, another one will. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE ANOTHER WOMAN.

    DO NOT make heavy commitments to a girl you just started dating. Don’t spend lots of money on her. Don’t tell her how much you like and love her. Don’t give her all your commitment all at once. Hold back until it’s appropriate. Even then, never, ever let a woman use you or walk all over you. If she can withhold the sex, you can withhold the commitment.

    You are going to face fitness tests. She will challenge you to see if you can stand up to her. Simply ignore those tests. Don’t respond to them. If you cannot ignore them, laugh at them. Change the subject and talk about something else. Or turn it back to her in question form. Whatever you do, don’t give her what she wants. When you give in, she will know she can control you — and your relationship is doomed.

    You will have to break up with girls. There will be many reasons for this.

    (1) She is able to control you, probably because you’ve failed too many fitness tests. You’ll naturally bristle at her controlling you. Just end it. The relationship’s probably too far gone anyway.
    (2) She is cheating on you.
    (3) Her goals aren’t compatible with yours.
    (4) For whatever reason, her life does not fit in well with your life.

    When you end it, do so firmly and kindly. Just say something like “I don’t want to date you anymore.” That’s all you have to do. If you want to tell her why, tell her succinctly with not a lot of explanation. Don’t offer to let her “change”. Don’t hold out the possibility of “getting back together”. Just end it if that’s what you have decided needs to be done.

  • detinennui32

    Liza:

    “guys falling all over themselves to be with the bad or easy girls while nice girls like myself would get shelved because we don’t “give it up”. The bad easy girls (and bitchy women do really well with men, too) got all the dates and all the attention, so that’s why I don’t blame women for behaving in this manner because they are getting a lot of validation and positive reinforcement not to mention a shit load of attention for men, whether it’s negative or positive.

    If you’ll read my original post, I describe in florid detail how I learned this exact lesson the hard way.

  • Esau

    Bb: “Help me to understand where the lie is.”

    I won’t comment on your own case in particular; but in general the “lie” is to believe that there’s no tension between decency and confidence, that there’s no reason a man can’t have both as a simple act of will if he wants to.

    Liza207 writes so trippingly What we want is an attractive decent guy who is has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap. as though it’s just that simple. (BTW, why can’t you just stop yourself from dishing out “crap”, so no one has to “not take it”?) But, as you’ve been told over and over and over and yet never seem to grasp, it’s not that simple.

    “Confidence” is acting with the expectation that other people will respond to you in the way that you want them to. For an honest person, which is one important component of decency, if you don’t have that expectation then it is logically impossible to be confident. Some honest and decent people are lucky enough to have a good history, and can honestly act with confidence — these are the ones you seem to be looking for, effectively exercising a strong kind of preselection.

    But most people, and especially most honest people, aren’t lucky and don’t have successful histories. In order to appear confident, they have to fake it, which is in an essential, undeniable tension with being honest and decent. Opinion is divided about the significance of this fact. Susan has expressed support for the “fake it till you make it” school of action; while I feel more that getting into the attitude of believing oneself to be hot s_it in absence of evidence starts the slippery slide down to narcissistic assholery. But, before debating the implications the important thing is for you to acknowledge that the tension between confidence and decency exists, especially for young men, and can be quite significant.

    The subtler part of the “lie” is, that by insisting that there’s no tension between decency and confidence, that both can always be willed directly into being, you never have to admit to prioritizing between them. When asked, “Which is more important to you for attraction, confidence or decency?” many women will side-step the question completely by saying “I want both!” or “They should naturally occur together”. The first is a plain cop-out, the second completely wrong IMO.

    The honest answer, for women in general, is that confidence is a thousand times more important for attraction than is decency, as every regular reader of this blog is well aware. What you can do to help the world, then, is first simply to recognize that women’s almost berserk emphasis on confidence forces typical young men into a making a choice, between being honest and being sexually successful. When you can admit that, the rest of enlightenment will follow.

  • imnobody

    Thank you, Susan. It seems that my surgery has gone well but it’s too early to know. Now it’s only pains and aches but I’ll survive. Thank you for caring.

  • detinennui32

    Liza:
    “Most women do desire bad boys for short-term interactions and also when we’re very young but we eventually grow out of this phase (and it is a phase). Men go through this as well.”

    detinennui says: This is Liza’s hamster talking. GMAFB.

    No, it is not a phase. This is basic female hypergamy. Women sexually desire the bad boy, the alpha, because that’s what tingles them. Women don’t grow out of this. If they did, women would never feel a tingle when another man sexually excites them. What keeps a woman with a man is that she decides not to follow the tingle or respond to it.

    Women never grow out of their seeking the tingle. If they did, you would not see 40 year old cougars throwing themselves at 20 year old college students with rock hard abs.

    If they did, you would not see married women on the prowl at bars looking for sexual excitement.

    If they did, you would not see women previously happily married for 20 years suddenly looking at their comfortable, 50 pound overweight husbands, saying “I love him, but I’m not in love with him” and secretly or not-so-secretly desiring to cheat on him.

    If they did, you would not see married women throwing panties and hotel room keys onto stages at rock concerts.

  • Liza207

    “Guys, we actually do want decent guys who treat us nice. What emotionally healthy women don’t want is someone we can walk all over, because if I can walk all over a guy, so can everyone else in his life. His ex, his boss, his kids…whatever.”

    Aldonza,

    Excellent point. emotionally healthy women want and expect decency in a man. I don’t get why these guys are so focused on women who are obviously damaged. And yes, we want a guy with a backbone which is another thing emotionally healthy women expect from a man because we want and need to feel safe. We need to know that you can protect us and our children.

  • imnobody

    @detinennui32

    You are so right. It’s necessary for boys to know the truth about women and male-female relationships. So they don’t have to learn it after years of failure. If our society told the truth, a lot of pain and divorce for men and women would be avoided.

    It would be foolish to blame women to be the way they are: they are wired this way (the same way men are attracted by hot young women). Our instincts are adapted to survive in the African savannah, thousands of years ago. But we can blame all these people who benefit of telling lies to young boys.

    These instincts were curbed during the so-called “patriarchy” to produce a functioning society. Now we are reverting to our primal society: the so-called “matriarchy” (black ghettos in USA and Latin America are more advanced in this process)

    I’ve been reading the “History of Rome” by Indro Montanelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indro_Montanelli). It is a divulgation book but it’s amazing how feminism, hedonism and decadence are so similar in the Ancient Rome and in our times. Everything that has happened in our society had happened before in Rome.

    Montanelli didn’t know it because he was writing back in 1957, where the so-called “patriarchy” was strong in Italy, his country. But, in some paragraphs, instead of writing about the past, he seems to write about the future, about our “Lady Gaga” society.

    It is a very readable book: I recommend it. But it is sad to see how human beings commit the same mistakes once and again.

  • detinennui32

    Liza said:

    “Guys, we actually do want decent guys who treat us nice. What emotionally healthy women don’t want is someone we can walk all over, because if I can walk all over a guy, so can everyone else in his life. His ex, his boss, his kids…whatever.”

    Aldonza,

    Excellent point. emotionally healthy women want and expect decency in a man. I don’t get why these guys are so focused on women who are obviously damaged. And yes, we want a guy with a backbone which is another thing emotionally healthy women expect from a man because we want and need to feel safe. We need to know that you can protect us and our children.”

    OK, OK. Can we at least agree that women use fitness testing on men, and that its purpose is to find out if a man has a backbone and can stand up to her? Can we at least agree that that method is manipulative and surreptitious instead of above-board and overt?

    And can we at least agree that women have rationalization hamsters and that sometimes women let their hamsters do the thinking for them?

    And can we at least agree that the reason men over the past 50 years have not stood up to the women in their lives is because they have been told over and over and over and over again, the message pounded into them at every turn, that they have to “be nice”? And that “being nice” to a woman means “he gives me what I want, when I want, how I want”?

    Can we at least agree that this concept of “emotionally healthy women want a guy with a backbone” is not universally explained to men when they are boys? Can we at least agree that the “backbone” part is almost always left out in favor of “Be nice”?

    Can we at least agree that what women SAY they want, and what they ACTUALLY want, are very often two different things?

    Can we at least agree that “women who are obviously damaged” is probably a vast majority of feminist-marinated women in the modern United States, and that women like Aldonza and Liza are in a decided minority?

    detinennui over and out. I can’t keep doing this today.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Liza,

    I posted something earlier, and now I can’t find it for some reason. I don’t think the bad boy thing is just a phase. I think that it’s a symptom of what Sue calls the dual mating strategy, and what I’ve starting to think of as women’s dichotomous co-dependency. Women want a thrilling escape from their mundane lives with a night or two with some bad boys, and want the sense of security from a good man.

    I experienced this firsthand with the woman i was engaged to until recently. She came off as a thoroughly respectable woman, which I took her to be. Then I found out that she had sown a lot of wild oats with cads prior to us getting together. Naive as it sounds, I was surprised by this. I knew that fast and easy women slept with guys like that, but I was under the impression that most women didn’t do that sort of thing.

    So I was bitter for a while, since I’d spent my life trying to treat people with decency and respect. Then I figured what was good for the gander was good for the goose, too. So I left her and started to see women as a source of entertainment and fun, the same way that most women think of the cads when you think about it.

    I’m no longer bitter, but I can tell you this: I no longer have the desire to prove to a woman that I can deal with her crap when I know that I exist as only one side of her dichotomous co-dependency, when I know that she’s given away the goods to some cad who wouldn’t put up with her crap in a million years.

  • imnobody

    I’m done too. I have said what I wanted to said and everything else is repetition. None so blind as those who will not see.

  • Liza207

    detinennui32,

    I’m reading your posts and I read post from guys at other blogs and what is clear to me and should be clear to you as wll, although, you and other men may not want to admit it. But the fact of the matter is, men and women aren’t that different from one another, in terms of our nature. We’re pretty much the same and all the finger pointing is getting beyond tiresome. We are both at fault for the predicament that we currently find ourselves in. At least, can we agree on that?

  • jamie

    OK, OK. Can we at least agree that women use fitness testing on men, and that its purpose is to find out if a man has a backbone and can stand up to her? Can we at least agree that that method is manipulative and surreptitious instead of above-board and overt?

    manipulative? What woman is going to say, “if I act up, will you put me in my place?” or “Do you have good genes and the ability to provide for my children?” Besides, haven’t we already agreed that fitness testing takes place on a subconscious level?

    And can we at least agree that women have rationalization hamsters and that sometimes women let their hamsters do the thinking for them?

    Personally, I don’t like being patronized and having my thoughts and feelings invalidated. Suggesting that women have hamsters for brains is insulting. Stop it.

    Can we at least agree that what women SAY they want, and what they ACTUALLY want, are very often two different things?

    I want a man who eats pussy for breakfast and washes dishes for fun. Everything else is negotiable. There. Truth has been spoken. Any takers?

    I didn’t think so.

    Come to think of it, I’m done too. On this thread I have learned:

    -I thought I had male friends, but I don’t. They all have ulterior motives for hanging out with me because…
    -A woman’s worth is calculated by how hot she is + whether she’ll let you stick it in her + distaste for feminist rhetoric. Intelligence, achievements and special abilities are hardly factored in.
    -”nice guys” whine too much rather than actually doing something productive to make themselves attractive to women, such as, working out, getting a job, shaving off that stupid soul patch, dressing better or getting some interesting hobbies. Here is some more bitter truth: you’re not failing because you’re “too nice”, it’s because you’re not attractive to women. Game is effective because it makes you attractive to women, period. Blaming women because you spent 20 years as a hopeless dweeb and getting all bitter about it now is seriously repulsive.

    So…I’m done. The nice thing about being female is that I don’t consider sex a “need”, it’s a luxury. The only needs in this world are water, food and protection from the elements. If you were stranded on a deserted island, you’re certainly not going to die from blue balls. Anyway, I’ve decided to go the spinster route and I intend to be very vocal about this decision. In fact, I’m going to find a way to make “spinster” my relationship status on facebook so there is no confusion. I don’t need a man, I have everything I need, a job, a house, a car, 1-cent books on amazon.com and a big ‘ole glass of iced tea. I’m set. No joke.

  • detinennui32

    I had to respond to this, then I’m done.

    Liza:

    “The bad easy girls (and bitchy women do really well with men, too) got all the dates and all the attention, so that’s why I don’t blame women for behaving in this manner because they are getting a lot of validation and positive reinforcement not to mention a shit load of attention for men, whether it’s negative or positive.”

    Now you know how it feels for men like me and imnobody. For years women put us on the sidelines. Those women patted us on the heads and called us nice guys and “friends”. Then those women — including many average women — scampered into the arms and beds of cads, players, PUAs, bad boys and douchebags. Many of us could not even get average girls to take a second look at us (Summer was a notable exception).

    Liza, you don’t blame women for putting out or being bitchy because that gets them the male attention. Yet I hear women shaming and blaming men for trying to do things that will get them success with women.

    What I hear you saying is that a man’s natural desire for sex and female companionship is somehow abnormal or predatory.

    I’m hearing that game is not a system designed for male self improvement or to increase his odds of dating and relationship success. What I’m hearing is that game is really nothing but a bunch of “magic tricks” designed to “trigger the rutting instinct” in drunk bar sluts.

    I’m being told here that women want nice guys who treat them right, but who also have backbones — and that men should somehow just know this despite the EXACT OPPOSITE being screamed from every magazine, TV show, newspaper, talking head, movie, church pulpit, classroom, and “scholarly” article.

    I’m hearing men being told that they should be “nice guys” with “backbones”. But then when men show they have backbones, women accuse them of being self-centered “abusive jerks”.

    I”m hearing women say they want men to be direct and clear about what they want. Then when men actually do this, they are told they are shallow and are “just interested in sex”.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I’ve very much enjoyed reading the excellent, thoughtful comments here by imnobody & detinennui, thanks both of you for taking the time to go into all this in such depth, it all resonated with me. Hope to hear more from you both.

    And get well soon Nobody.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    detinennui32,

    I’m hearing men being told that they should be “nice guys” with “backbones”. But then when men show they have backbones, women accuse them of being self-centered “abusive jerks”.

    Dont worry too much about the names women use on men when they are not getting what they want. Accusing you of being an abusive jerk for having a backbone is a shortcut to get what they want. Having a backbone is perfectly fine and being direct and real works better than being nice and indirect. If women were linear straight and foward instead of curvy and indirect and mellow, they would be men

    http://yohami.com/blog/2011/07/18/logic-conflict-the-instincts-in-play/

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Funny facts:

    Women, in this case, Liza, want a real man that wont “take any of their crap”. Then, when a man doesnt take any of her crap, she will complain that he is a jerk. But if he does take her crap, then he becomes her doormat and gets dumped. So the search for the man who wont take any of her crap continues.

    So dont take any of her crap. Dont ever take her complains that you dont take her crap. Let her ramble with her female friends about how you are not doing all the nice things nice guys would do.

    She will be happy. Her friends will be happy.

    We men forget women LIKE drama.

  • detinennui32

    LIza:

    I’ll agree that men and women are at fault for the unmitigated disaster which is the current American SMP. Men’s part is their tacit capitulation to the current embodiment of American feminism and its deleterious effects on society. Women have the rest of the responsibility.

    I will never agree that men and women are pretty much the same in terms of their nature. Men and women are very different. If you’ve spent as much time here at HUS or at other manosphere blogs, you should know that by now.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    and just as important: dont react to the crap in a negative way, dont make it in a way that makes her feel bad, because she will perceive you as the one bringing bad vibes – she wont see herself as the cause of the crap, she will continue to dump the crap on you, plus blaming you for the negative vibe she is feeling

    so tease her back and dont take her crap. if she is relationship material when she wears it off she will apologize for the crap she created – which doesnt mean she wont do it again

    detinennui32, I bet a dollar that when you stood up to your wife, the story made the rounds among her friends. and that she defended you when her friends started to talk shit about you

  • Blues

    You’re right. Most women do desire bad boys for short-term interactions and also when we’re very young but we eventually grow out of this phase (and it is a phase). Men go through this as well.

    I have yet to hear a sane man say he ever had a time in his life where he actually wanted to be with a ball busting bitch.

    I am all those things you described (all of them) and most of the men that have approached me were abusive jerks who saw my pleasant personality and kindness as weakness to be exploited and manipulated.

    If my experience taught me anything, is that any woman that claims that it’s all guys fault or that all that ever approaches her is jerks in reality is actively (and often unwittingly) attracting said jerks, the fact that you say you have “all those qualities” just reinforces my suspicious because it tells you have not considered it could be you, it’s always them.

    But I have always had enough self-respect and self-esteem to walk away from these guys. I’m not angry or bitter I just know that I should stay away from men that don’t appreciate me.

    Most do, eventually when they can’t handle it anymore, so this doesn’t mean much.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Blues
      Re Liza’s statement:

      If my experience taught me anything, is that any woman that claims that it’s all guys fault or that all that ever approaches her is jerks in reality is actively (and often unwittingly) attracting said jerks, the fact that you say you have “all those qualities” just reinforces my suspicious because it tells you have not considered it could be you, it’s always them.

      IIRC, Liza is extremely good looking. Very beautiful women get a whole lot of attention from cads – they attract the most confident men, the only ones who are willing to risk the rejection. Liza is saying she will walk away from jerks, but that doesn’t mean jerks don’t make up the vast majority of the men who have the nerve to approach her.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    And yes, we want a guy with a backbone which is another thing emotionally healthy women expect from a man because we want and need to feel safe. We need to know that you can protect us and our children.

    I know people here are probably tired of my NAWALT but I want to mention that physical or economic protection has never been so much of an issue I didn’t married a rich guy never seeked out and for some reason I don’t feel physically easy to restrain, even though I should,but the kind of protecting I needed was emotional one. Knowing that my husband won’t just walk away, cheat on me with another woman or just not love me or accept all the love I have to give, was pretty much the big one in the list of requirements. So in my case the confident was never an attraction factor I know plenty of confident men and is like whatever, YMMV.

    If they did, you would not see married women throwing panties and hotel room keys onto stages at rock concerts.

    Heh I remember that once I went to a concert with some friends when I was younger and we agree in throwing panties at the main singer. I of course took a clean pair and place it on my pocket. But then standing there the only thing in my mind was “Why would I waste a perfect set of panties in an stranger, no matter how good looking he was?” I took them back home hoping that one day I will actually wear them for someone that cares about me and me for him. I always felt I was a weird kid growing up.

    But it is sad to see how human beings commit the same mistakes once and again.

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”. George Santayana

    I”m hearing women say they want men to be direct and clear about what they want. Then when men actually do this, they are told they are shallow and are “just interested in sex”.

    You forgot objectifying.
    You probably know at this point but the trick is that in your SMP attraction is the moral ruler for women. If she finds you attractive everything you do will be justified and accepted if she doesn’t find you attractive nothing you do will be right and accepted. And is valid because “her feelings” are “always” right and most be follow logic be damned “it feels right, is right”.
    So an attractive guy is “an assertive, confident male that knows what he wants and goes for it”, an unattractive guy is “a creep that deserves shaming for his efforts at best and a restriction order at worst”. Ces’t la vie.

  • Liza207

    I see now that bitter angry men have become the majority here. Most of you just sound deranged. I’m glad that you guys are only interested in women who are severely damaged like yourselves.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Liza207, if thats addressed to me, Im nor angry nor bitter?

  • Blues

    I see now that bitter angry men have become the majority here. Most of you just sound deranged. I’m glad that you guys are only interested in women who are severely damaged like yourselves.

    Oh yeah, the bitterness is me, the anger is me, hear my rage and tremble! LOL

  • Liza207

    How come neither of you denied being deranged?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    also didnt deny being damaged etc, Im just asking if that was about me or what

  • Blues

    Wait, wait, let me try this with the Game Universal Translator:

    I see now that bitter angry men have become the majority here.

    GUT: i clearly got bitter and angry so i’ll project it on everyone else

    I’m glad that you guys are only interested in women who are severely damaged like yourselves.

    GUT: It burns me that you/men are not taking my shit anymore so i’ll go look people that do.

  • Blues

    How come neither of you denied being deranged?

    You kidding? i’m of the hook crazy, why deny it?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    “you are bitter, angry, damaged, deranged” = “I cant deal with what you are saying because I feel at unease”

    my question is if Im making you feel at unease, which would be strange, since I agree with everything you said so far.

  • detinennui32

    Liza:

    The “bitter, angry man” and “deranged” and “severely damaged” epithets are just shaming language. Name calling won’t work.

    I’m not angry or bitter. You confuse zeal in advancing a viewpoint contrary to yours with “anger” and “bitterness”, because you don’t accept the view being offered. Passionate advocacy of a viewpoint you disagree with appears to you as “angry” , “bitter”, “deranged” and “severely damaged”.

  • Liza207

    I was addressing you and the other men that responded to my posts, today.

    And I’m not angry at men because I don’t get invloved with men who don’t appreciate me.

  • detinennui32

    And Liza, you’ve come in here now calling us names. We haven’t called you any names at all. We’ve been respectful and engaged you directly. You’ve responded by attempting to insult and shame us.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And Liza, you’ve come in here now calling us names. We haven’t called you any names at all. We’ve been respectful and engaged you directly. You’ve responded by attempting to insult and shame us.

      Hmmm, I don’t agree with this, though I understand why you feel this way. I think Liza has made a good faith effort to explain what she wants, and what she rewards in a man. In return, she got the very common “women say one thing, do another” response. It may be true, but I don’t think it’s respectful to dismiss a woman’s comments on that basis. None of you has any idea what Liza does. I imagine that Liza feels defensive at this point, hence the shaming language. I understand, because I had the exact same experience a couple of years ago when I went to the Spearhead for the first time. Within ten minutes Pro-Male Anti-Feminist Tech and The Fifth Horseman claimed I was everything terrible in female nature, got into grad school due to feminism despite being unqualified, and was guilty of feminist shaming language – an accusation I didn’t even understand. They also said I had been a terrible mother to my beta son, and was living in a marriage with a man I clearly wasn’t attracted to. Honestly, it took me weeks to recover from that attack, and I have avoided The Spearhead ever since.

      The Red Pill needs to be given in small doses to the uninitiated.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    detinennui32, she felt bad and is projecting that negative energy back, just what I was pointing. These words just reflect how she feels and puts the blame outside, which is, well, normal.

    If she feels bad about what you say, well, there must be something wrong with you, right?

    Thats the screening instinct working. Totally valid for separating the good fruit from the bad. If it feels wrong, it must be wrong and if it feels right, it must be right.

    Great for screening, bad for logical reasoning.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    detinennui32, that wont work, brother. Calling her on it only makes her feel worse. :-)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    once she feels you are snake, whatever you say is just the snake talking. saying you´re not the snake and that she is doing something wrong (which she is) only increases the tension, so she will flood even more tension back – trying to prove she is innocent and you are the bad one for making her feel wronged

    yes, even if she is the wronger.

    Liza, you are calling names, ok? bad girl. Thats not a proper way to talk about issues. I think your points are valid, and Im offering a male perspective of how to deal with the nature of women (which isnt bad, just different from men´s nature)

    anyway.

    this happens so often I wrote about it, please check

    http://yohami.com/blog/2011/07/18/logic-conflict-the-instincts-in-play/

  • Tom

    From a wise person who “gets it” to the young and or immature men who “think” they understand human nature. Some older guys may fall into the immature catagory as far as understanding women goes…….

    At any point in her life, if a woman gives herself permission to explore her sexuality she’s at risk of being labelled by others as a skank, a whore, not to mention a bad mother, dirty, immoral, ‘used up’… you get the picture.

    Yet that branding is not only unfair, it’s completely illogical. It somehow assumes that once a woman tastes the power of her sexuality she becomes a slave to her sexual desires – that she can’t be trusted; that her mind and heart no longer factor into the equation of her choices, both present or future.

    Learn grasshopper, learn.

  • Matt C

    detinennui32, she felt bad and is projecting that negative energy back, just what I was pointing. These words just reflect how she feels and puts the blame outside, which is, well, normal.

    Don’t you think part of this comes from living in a victim society (talking about U.S.) where women are the victims and men are the big bad wolves?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jesus Mahoney,

    The “bad boy” is a phase, and it lasts during the most fertile years of the woman. Fertility = acute horniness = bad boy cravings. Women do grow out of it, when their body settles.

    I´ve read that when women approach the menopause the testosterone goes up and they get horny again. I dont know if the bad boy cravings return. Maybe they get replaced by something else. Not sure. Zero experience with cougars here.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt C

    Don’t you think part of this comes from living in a victim society (talking about U.S.) where women are the victims and men are the big bad wolves?

    Culture accounts for sure, because it set things for granted. But as I see it culture is the expression of the natural instincts that were already there.

    Otherwise there would a lot of women in history, and recent history, not exhibiting the pattern. I guess there are exceptions, still looking for them.

    Say, in a Muslim country where men are by default good and women are bad, how do women argue and interact? do they reason logically or do they scream wolf?

    Anyone?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    So, you can learn a bunch of “magic tricks” designed to trigger the rutting instinct in a drunk club slut, or you can reshape your entire life by being more firm about your own needs and wants with *everyone* around you. It isn’t just women who will respond to that…it’s the world

    Woohooo! well said. Plus the magic tricks wont work in the long run.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Liza,

    I for one don’t mind being referred to as de-ranged. Surveying the sheep on the range, one can easily arrive at the conclusion that de-range-ment from the herd is a blessing and not a curse.

    You’re obviously angry and bitter yourself, which is okay with me. Can’t hold that against you since I too was bitter till recently. But don’t hate men for not being the perfect combinations of king-servant that you seem to require in your life.

    I also didn’t mean to assume that you’d rolled around in the hay with cads. You may not have. I don’t care either way, since I’m done seeking out the dad role and don’t know you from a hole in the wall. But to take it as a given that women can have their good guy cakes while eating their bad boy cakes too, and then to repudiate men in the next breath for eating their own delicious girl cakes, seems… (oh my) like a bit of a double standard.

  • Matt C

    Culture accounts for sure, because it set things for granted. But as I see it culture is the expression of the natural instincts that were already there.

    Otherwise there would a lot of women in history, and recent history, not exhibiting the pattern. I guess there are exceptions, still looking for them.

    Say, in a Muslim country where men are by default good and women are bad, how do women argue and interact? do they reason logically or do they scream wolf?

    Anyone?

    Hmm, I guess women and children will always be seen as the people that need to be protected, but I still believe this “victim mentality” has been greatly exaggerated by feminism.

  • Matt C

    Hmmm, I don’t agree with this, though I understand why you feel this way. I think Liza has made a good faith effort to explain what she wants, and what she rewards in a man. In return, she got the very common “women say one thing, do another” response. It may be true, but I don’t think it’s respectful to dismiss a woman’s comments on that basis. None of you has any idea what Liza does. I imagine that Liza feels defensive at this point, hence the shaming language. I understand, because I had the exact same experience a couple of years ago when I went to the Spearhead for the first time. Within ten minutes Pro-Male Anti-Feminist Tech and The Fifth Horseman claimed I was everything terrible in female nature, got into grad school due to feminism despite being unqualified, and was guilty of feminist shaming language – an accusation I didn’t even understand. They also said I had been a terrible mother to my beta son, and was living in a marriage with a man I clearly wasn’t attracted to. Honestly, it took me weeks to recover from that attack, and I have avoided The Spearhead ever since.

    Wowza McJowza! <my initial reaction to this

    It seems The Spearhead has a lot of misogyny in it. I have read some of it and it has some points that I agree with, but man, that sounds like some hateful stuff.

    I am just curious Susan, if you are willing to answer.

    What is your take on feminism, MRA's and the whole gender war stuff?

    You don't have to answer and I'm not asking for some super detailed answer. Just if you like any of this or not.

    Personally I'm against modern feminism and I don't support MRA's because it fuels this idiotic "gender war". I hate the feeling that I have to compete and fight with women, when the idea of working with women feels so much better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C

      Personally I’m against modern feminism and I don’t support MRA’s because it fuels this idiotic “gender war”. I hate the feeling that I have to compete and fight with women, when the idea of working with women feels so much better.

      Re feminism: I grew up benefiting from gender equity feminism, and I’m glad that women have career choices and opportunities not available to them before the Women’s Movement. I believe in meritocracy, though – no special favors based on sex. I believe that feminism reached its goals long ago, and has since morphed into a philosophy of female superiority, which I reject as competitive and destructive, not to mention false. I also totally reject sex-positive feminism, which is proselytized as a religion. It’s a very poor strategy for women, because the sexual double standard is rooted in biology and cannot be “taught” out of men.

      Re MRAs: I understand that many men have suffered in an inequitable legal system, losing access to their own children, being unfairly penalized financially, and even raising children who are not biologically theirs. It’s natural those experiences would have produced a mobilized group of males seeking justice. They are indeed angry and bitter in many cases, perhaps justifiably. In my experience, I’m neither welcome in these discussions, nor do I particularly enjoy them or have anything meaningful to add.

  • filrabat

    @detinennui32 says:
    July 18, 2011 at 6:33 am

    I’m am warning them against these very things. When I said your post “pretty much personifies everything I warn people against”, I meant the first part of the post. The Lessons Learned section is what I do my best to promote.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    If it’s a phase, then it’s certainly a very long one… puberty to menopause. When sex doesn’t matter, then women prefer betas.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Say, in a Muslim country where men are by default good and women are bad, how do women argue and interact? do they reason logically or do they scream wolf?

    Anyone?

    I think I’m probably the one with most experience with Muslim women in this blog.
    I found all my friends smart and articulated back then, but some of them were also very emotional and some others were more practical…so is hard to tell. I will need to befriend Muslim women that live away from western influence to know how they react to opposing arguments.

  • Matt C

    Yohami,

    If it’s a phase, then it’s certainly a very long one… puberty to menopause. When sex doesn’t matter, then women prefer betas.

    Guys that are nice are still attractive to women.

    Also, what makes a man a beta?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    The “bad boy” is a phase, and it lasts during the most fertile years of the woman. Fertility = acute horniness = bad boy cravings. Women do grow out of it, when their body settles.

    Do you realize this is not a good argument for taking women seriously right? The better years of their lives are for bad boys and betas take the crumbles? I don’t see many men choosing to be decent them if this is the choice. Heck I was considering eternal celibacy when this was pretty much the choices for me.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Steph,

    “Do you realize this is not a good argument for taking women seriously right? The better years of their lives are for bad boys and betas take the crumbles? I don’t see many men choosing to be decent them if this is the choice.”

    Exactly.

  • detinennui32

    Fair enough, Susan. It’ s your place, you just let us hang out here — for which I’m grateful. I certainly don’t mean to disrespect anyone and if I did, please accept my humble mea culpas. I’ve said all I wanted to say (and probably more than I needed to).

  • Blues

    IIRC, Liza is extremely good looking. Very beautiful women get a whole lot of attention from cads – they attract the most confident men, the only ones who are willing to risk the rejection. Liza is saying she will walk away from jerks, but that doesn’t mean jerks don’t make up the vast majority of the men who have the nerve to approach her.

    As for the Spearhead, haven’t been there for a while but i think we are way more constructive in our critiques than them, we’re not out to bash women “just cause” but we won’t hold back punches either when it’s necessary.

    Now here’s the thing, what gave me the impression of “burned by cads” was the anger and emotion in her response, had she been approached but turned them down without getting hurt it would have been closer to disappointment than anger.

    Second, i reiterate my point that she never at any moment said or confirmed later that she took time to consider if she might have played a part in her problem, it was “all the jerks”, maybe i’m projecting but this reminds me a lot to my worse pre-game days of “all women are dumb and not one looks my way instead of assholes”

    Finally, this part alone

    most of the men that have approached me were abusive jerks who saw my pleasant personality and kindness as weakness to be exploited and manipulated.

    Gives me 3 things:
    1) If it was “most men” there had to be at least a few that didn’t, what happened with those? i’d like to know, might shed some light into the situation if she wants help.
    2) The victim mentality that reinforces the “burned by cads” theory and slight snowflaking, both things that make easy prey of women for cads.
    3)Again, the ad hominem as soon as we put the possibility on the table that she had a part in her predicament.

    I stand by my rule, burned once? shit happens, burned twice? coincidences happen too, burned thrice or more? she’s fucking up whether she can admit/realize it or not.

  • Liza207

    Susan,

    I thought I was entering into a rational exchange of thoughts with them but I should have known better, right?

    Guys,

    I wasn’t attempting to shame you. I don’t resort to such tactics.

  • Matt C

    Susan,

    I thought I was entering into a rational exchange of thoughts with them but I should have known better, right?

    Calling the men’s thoughts irrational is shaming language.

    You are essentially calling me and any other male inept of rational thought. Our ideas on reality are wrong and thus that makes us inferior. We should not retort unless we agree with your ideas.

    Am I wrong with this line of thinking?

  • filrabat

    @Tom,

    For full disclosure’s sake, you did admit you got a lot of sex in college and stopped when you got tired of (basically) plain old pick-up sex. Nevertheless, this one really jumped out at me:

    Thinking with my dick proved to be pretty non-productive. Sure I got laid, but that didnt build for my future financial success. At some point men have to grow up and start using the big head.

    ++1 from me, Tom. The command to act on urges to “be fruitful and multiply” is a command of the genes, NOT the brain. Our sexual psychology is still in the Stone Age – which is fine IF all we needed to do to earn a living was to live off the land and nothing more (i.e. pre-Industrial times at the most technologically advanced, even then with a few exceptions I can think of). Yet, the 21st century demands much more in the way of preparation to be a self-supporting person than earlier times. Evolution just didn’t equip us to live in the Information Age, that’s for sure. Given that human day-to-day living is incomprehensibly beyond the level of an otter, ocelot, or even chimpanzee, this message is so out of place that no sensible person can find the message rational.

    BUT – this goes back to using “the big head” that you mentioned. That’s one thing Homo sapiens has over other animals – we’re good at figuring things out, self-awareness, anticipating things, scenario planning, communicating ideas much more precisely than growls and body language will allow, etc. All this allows us to overrule our Human Nature™ impulses when need be.

    Unfortunately, the media and social environment (both influencing each other) seems to promote the exact opposite these days – follow your Human Nature ™ impulses or be an object of pity at best or scorn at worst. So as I said before, the media artificially intensifies the desire for sex or romance. Yes, humans are not always rational creatures, media or no media, but to reiterate the media does artificially inflate / intensify the desire for these things. All that energy devoted to sex (esp before you’re ready for monogamy) could be put toward much more productive purposes – like building yourself up to the point where you can feed your family when you start one. Besides, no 28 year old marriage-worthy person is gonna care if you were a “Bud Hero” in college (actually any such woman at any “legal age”, but especially that one). So if you just HAVE to have a relationship in college, then find one with a partner whose life is just as devoted to meeting long-term career goals as yours is.

    I can just hear the response from certain others/lurkers: But you gotta have FUN! To which I say, “That’s just your Human Nature TM talking”.

    ——–
    * Human Nature ™, as you probably guessed (coming from me), means following the “animal side” of your human nature. In my experience, when people say “It’s human nature” (not just in sexual contexts), 9 times out of 10 they mean the animal side of it as distinct from the higher logic-reason functions. Therefore to excuse anything by using “human nature” in this sense is to imply humans have no more capacity for forethought and decision-making than do wild animals. This seems pretty undignified if you ask me, for you are letting your animal nature overcome your true human nature (i.e. mental and behavioral traits truly unique to humans…whether in degree or kind).

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Liza, maybe you dont, but you did.

  • filrabat

    And yes, we want a guy with a backbone which is another thing emotionally healthy women expect from a man because we want and need to feel safe. We need to know that you can protect us and our children.

    Protect from what?

    Of course, that actually depends on the social environment you are around (high crime neighborhood vs very-low-crime upper-middle-class suburb). While I agree a man should protect a woman, the woman’s best protection is her own brain. Frankly, I find it rather scary when a woman is VERY insistent on protection (not saying YOU are, but even so) — for that’s gonna get me thinking “What the hell types of places does she hang around that maker her so insistent upon it?” I mean, why would a man want to have a woman who is always in need of protection, esp. when he can devote more of his time and energy to providing for his family’s needs?

    Mind you, I can understand it on an animal-instinct level, but the fact is we have options other animals don’t have: namely a choice of which environment to be in (well, at least for the five-sixths or so [in the USA] living above the poverty line). That alone will work wonders to increase her safety. In the end, women need to see that their most powerful protector (even more than that of a strong assertive man) is her choice, within her ability, to not hang around venues and situations where she is likely to need protection in the first place

  • Blues

    @Liza207: fine, then back to business:

    -What about the other guys the “not the most” group?
    -Where do these cads keep approaching you?
    -Have you considered you may have been sending the wrong signals at all?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt C,

    Also, what makes a man a beta?

    The way I see it, which differs to how other people see it, the beta is a follower of the pack and the alpha is the leader of the pack.

    Alphas have the greater value in the pack, followed by women & children, followed by betas, followed by whores, followed by omega men. Assuming we dont inject false value into one of these roles (with money, fame, branding) these are pretty much instinctual.

    Then the laws of market apply for the values. The ones with most value do less for the people of less value, and take more from them. The ones with less value give more, receive less, and live in a continuous chase to prove their worth and grab something.

    And with the scale also comes responsibility, example, alphas lead the pack for better and worse and determine whats right or wrong, if they make bad decisions, get replaced / killed.

    But modern world hijacked this so we live in fantasy land, with all of these traits disperse. We are taught to be betas and that alphas are inherently bad.

    This leaves women and children at the top, men right under them, and omegas pushed to the borders of civilization, but since we have plenty of resources, we all end up having a life and being spared.

    A minimal proportion of men just dont get the whole picture and “rebel” naturally, maybe because they are dumb, maybe because they just dont function well, and become “bad boys” because they exhibit the banned alpha traits society is trying to ban.

    So the rest is a big chunk of beta men. The qualities of beta, again? a follower, non decisive men, with lack of self worth, who worships women, who can sacrifice himself for the greater good and is always in debt for the space he occupies, in debt for the attention and love he receives (or doesnt), and in a constant fight repressing his nature that is constantly being castrated by the role he´s been forced to play.

    When a beta gets some love he thinks he´s been “saved”. Beta can bring the moon and the world in exchange of being accepted: the man nails before the woman and asks her permission to have her. Then keeps asking for her permission his whole life but somehow he´s never enough.

    Beta pedestalizes everything of value except of himself. Beta can only have value if he associates to external value. Since women have value, beta tries to get women, status, etc, to fill his own lack of value.

    Alpha in the other hand has inner value and women, status etc are “given” to him in an effortless way.

    Omega has negative value and becomes a dumper for everyone´s crap.

    A lot of people around, looking at this superficially, quickly identify that beta is more of a giver and alpha (bad boys, in the current world) are takers, so they equal beta with nurturing qualities and alpha with destructive qualities.

    But in my views this is just a cultural mess. When you drop your beta / omega brainwash you can access a lot of traits buried in you, like standing up and doing your way, without becoming the bad boy, and still getting the rewards you should be naturally receiving.

    The cultural brainwash is superficial. It stands the test of time because we grab it, we collectively hold to it like it was a salvation table, not letting it go.

    But it aint salvation. Its a joke.

    I probably went off board with this, but thats… it.

  • Blues

    On second thought maybe you should email Susan to make a new post with your case, could be a good test for the advice panel idea and you’d get more exposure and advice that way, just a suggestion for our host.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Guys that are nice are still attractive to women.

    Rephrased: a guy who is attractive can be nice to women.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Since women have value, beta tries to get women, status, etc, to fill his own lack of value.

    I don’t think is that way. For a man, for a person is normal to want love and acceptance from members of the opposite sex if you are straight. I doubt a Beta guy is accessing a woman’s value. He probably is having a hard on for an attractive female and doing his best to get her. Depending where he is and who he is hitting on he will be successful or not, YMMV.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    I doubt a Beta guy is accessing a woman’s value.

    Oh baby. What do you think Game / Pua / Counting notches is about, at least the way it was conceived. Why do you think betas become bitter after interacting with women and realizing the value they are putting is not being “returned”, and why refuse the red pill, etc.

    How many male songs about finding salvation on a woman. How many the other way around?

  • Blues

    How many male songs about finding salvation on a woman. How many the other way around?

    Wow, never thought of it this way, simple but very easy way to deliver the point

  • Mike C

    Detinennui32,

    Your “son talk” at 11:21 AM is awesome. That is one of the best overall summaries I’ve read on how to interact with women and be an “attractive man” that I’ve read in the last few years. That piece in pure isolation could serve as “here is the red pill” and explains everything you’ve been confused about for years for a guy new to all of this.

  • Mike C

    For an honest person, which is one important component of decency, if you don’t have that expectation then it is logically impossible to be confident.
    .
    On one level I sorta agree, but on another I disagree. Which comes first the act or the emotional state/frame? What is a “genuine” emotion?
    .
    Do you smile because you are happy? Or are you happy if you force a smile?
    .
    http://health.howstuffworks.com/mental-health/human-nature/happiness/smiling-happy1.htm
    .
    I think “acting” confident can lead to genuine confidence.
    .
    All that said, I will agree there is some conflict at times between being decent and the sort of swagger/bragaccio which definitely appeals to some/many women.

  • Mike C

    I’m reading your posts and I read post from guys at other blogs and what is clear to me and should be clear to you as wll, although, you and other men may not want to admit it. But the fact of the matter is, men and women aren’t that different from one another, in terms of our nature.

    Liza,

    Yes, men and women have things in commons in terms of *human* nature. In terms of our “sexual” natures and what we find attractive in the opposite sex, men and women are radically different. Take just this one thing “confidence”. Clearly, confidence is a massive turn-on or lack of it a turn-off for women. For guys, meh, it doesn’t matter. If you have a pretty face, and good body, your confidence or lack of it is going to matter one whit to the boner.

  • Mike C

    Liza,

    I think you might be confused on what guys actually intentionally seek out in a woman, versus what they “put up with” from a beggars can’t be choosers perspective. You should read this:

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/crazy-girlfriends-and-spenglers-law/

    The money comment from whiteboykrispy:

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/crazy-girlfriends-and-spenglers-law/#comment-2385

    The majority of relationships I see, from people I know and even close friends, the dude is a complete doormat or a willing slave.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Deti:

    If she can withhold the sex, you can withhold the commitment.

    Seems like a stalemate to me. If she withholds the sex, you’re saying that she has to give it up before she gets commitment. My question is, don’t many guys dismiss the girl who gives it up before commitment as being “easy”? Even if they have been heading towards serious involvement with each other?

    Many of us could not even get average girls to take a second look at us (Summer was a notable exception).

    Yeahhh I don’t buy that. I’m willing to bet that Summer was the only one you noticed noticing you.

  • Jared

    IIRC, Liza is extremely good looking. Very beautiful women get a whole lot of attention from cads – they attract the most confident men, the only ones who are willing to risk the rejection. Liza is saying she will walk away from jerks, but that doesn’t mean jerks don’t make up the vast majority of the men who have the nerve to approach her.

    So why didn’t she approach any of the nice shy guys? I bet she friendzoned a lot of nice guys.

  • Jared

    If a man has to choose between nice and dominant, he should choose dominant every time – it will get him further with women and men.

    I agree that it might work with women. It’s terrible advice for men dealing with other men. That’s how bar fights happen. It’s like playing a game of chicken. It’s better to lose the game than to lose your life.

  • imnobody

    Please, guys don’t sweat the shaming language. It’s a way many women use to avoid accepting they have lost the argument and they have no logical reason left. Even my mother uses it all the time.

    One of the biggest realizations of my life was reading this page (http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/). I had been exposed to this shaming language lots of times and have been exposed lots of times since then, but now I know it’s not about me.

    When a woman uses shaming language, I know that I have won the argument and the woman has lost. So don’t take it personally. Why do you care what some people do you know think of you?

    Sometimes I reply to shaming language like this (all the things I write below have been said to me):

    “Yes, I am a bitter, irrational obese loser, who lives in his parent’s basements, has a small dick, can’t get laid and spends all his miserable existence j*rking off with online porn. Yes, I accept that. So, what is your argument? What do you have to say about the topic we are discussing?”

  • imnobody

    I meant “Why do you care what some people you don’t know think of you?”. Damned English. I love it so much but it does not love me. I’m its beta orbiter

  • Blues

    Seems like a stalemate to me. If she withholds the sex, you’re saying that she has to give it up before she gets commitment. My question is, don’t many guys dismiss the girl who gives it up before commitment as being “easy”? Even if they have been heading towards serious involvement with each other?

    And you’re framing this from the first date perspective when it should be from the LTR perspective. which takes me to the next question:

    Why would it commit to someone withholding sex?, isn’t that rewarding bad behavior?.

    Yeahhh I don’t buy that. I’m willing to bet that Summer was the only one you noticed noticing you.

    And this is a clear example of projection of the average female perspective to the average male situation.

  • Blues

    So why didn’t she approach any of the nice shy guys? I bet she friendzoned a lot of nice guys.

    I suspected that too, well, provided she even tried approaching.

    I agree that it might work with women. It’s terrible advice for men dealing with other men. That’s how bar fights happen. It’s like playing a game of chicken. It’s better to lose the game than to lose your life.

    I think you’re mistaking dominant attitude with bully/aggressive attitude, at it’s best dominance is done with subtlety.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Esau, thanks for the response. You’ve helped me understand where the statement is loaded for men because “what we want is an attractive decent guy who is has confidence in himself and won’t take any of our crap” intrinsically means a man can’t win—everything in that statement turns on the last part “who won’t take any of our crap.” It’s conditional “who won’t take any of our crap”= fitness testing by women.

    Am I understanding you (and by extension @detinennui32 and @imnobody) correctly?

    If that’s the case, I can clearly see the issues with the statement, and yes, it’s certainly loaded because that means at any given that dynamic is unstable—it’s always conditional based on women’s needs only.

    I don’t advocate that at all! That’s a no-win for a guy.

    So let me amend the statement to what I think was intended: Emotionally healthy women don’t want cads, douchebags or players. We want attractive, confident men, who treat us well.

    And in return, we should seek to return these same qualities for men

    Can we agree to that?

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    …but clearly for men YMMV on confidence.

    Mike C. “For guys, meh, it doesn’t matter. If you have a pretty face, and good body, your confidence or lack of it is going to matter one whit to the boner.”

    So I’ll just say: “we seek to be attractive, treat you well, and your favorite third quality that you want in a woman.”

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    And in return, we should seek to return these same qualities for men

    nope, but femininity, nurturing, deference, etc. or, it boils down to what your definition of “confidence” is

  • Esau

    Bb, I appreciate your patience and interest, but I think you’re still evading the heart of the matter. I’ll try to be more direct; let’s start from your amended statement:

    “So let me amend the statement to what I think was intended: Emotionally healthy women don’t want cads, douchebags or players. We want attractive, confident men, who treat us well.”

    The crux of the problem is, that as viewed and judged by women it is nearly impossible for a man to satisfy both the “confident” and “treat us well” criteria at the same time. This is because, if a man treats a woman well, that will almost automatically make him seem un-confident in her eyes. It’s a female pathology, that women (mis-)interpret male kindness as weakness, and so as fatally unattractive.

    Do you see why this is a problem worth complaining about? Women’s pathology forces men to choose between decent behavior and sexual success, and so prevents men from becoming whole human beings. It also seriously impairs women’s own chances of being happy, for obvious reason. It’s a lose-lose all around, and the root cause is women’s berserk, yet unadvertised, emphasis on confidence above all else, and the pathology of seeing kindness as supplication.

    I’ll go 1mm out on a limb here and guess that you don’t entirely agree with this as a description of the world. But, consider an obvious point. You write that “healthy women don’t want cads, douchebags or players”, and that’s probably true as far as their own conscious minds go. Very few people will admit out loud that they want to spend their time with douchebags, and no one wants to have such an image of themselves. However, having said that you need to answer: then why is it _functionally_ true that so many women actually _do_ chose to spend their time and favor with cads, doucebags and players? The “confidence uber alles” theory explains it perfectly: at a young age, essentially only dishonest and narcissistic men can really exude confidence manifestly, and so that’s who best excites women’s attraction and so that’s whom women wind up choosing. QED.

    Maybe you don’t believe in the “forced to choose between confidence and decency” idea, because for example you’ve seen men who exhibit both in real life. Here the analysis is slightly more complicated, but the essential point remains prioritization, which, as mentioned above, women don’t like to talk about. First, understand that some of these golden men may fall outside my description for specific but relatively rare reasons; they may actually be accomplished at something at a young age (sports?) and so have something to honestly be confident about, or they may have had lucky, blessed histories which taught them to expect to be treated well.

    Beyond the blessed few — catch one if you can, but don’t count on it — how does a man achieve the nirvana of both appearing confident and being able to live decently? The answer is, by doing them in the right order! This is a theme you will read over and over again in many places from HUS to PUA’s: attraction first, then comfort, not the other way around. A man must establish his bona fides of strength first, and only after that is firmly in place can he risk showing a little kindness and sensitivity (but not too much; Roissy advises that women are always on the lookout against “beta backsliding”). The man who opens with kindness and sensitivity simply loses; he’s perceived as supplicating and hence weak and hence repulsive, destined only for the LJBF scrapyard. This is pathology in action.

    So even your revised statement is unconsciously deceptive, because it doesn’t recognize the asymmetry between appearing confident and treating someone well; the former is _vastly_ more important for attraction, and _must_ come first before the latter can be allowed. By putting them on equal footing in a list you hide this important truth, and lead men to be dashed on the rocks of pathology when they think “treat us well” is an attractive behavior in itself. But make no mistake: if you see a young man in the world who appears confident but also decent, odds are very good that he’s playing a delicate balancing act, in which he is constantly choosing between the two but is able to make the right choice at the right time.

  • Blues

    @SW: Now that i remember this whole female approach thing, is there a possibility for a “list of red flags for women to avoid when initiating approach” in HUS any time soon?, the more i think about it the more i see it as a info that would benefit women and men in the long run.

  • imnobody

    @Susan

    The fact that gender feminism is the responsible of women’s entrance to the workplace is only another urban myth. If you see the statistics of this entrance, there is a steady increase since the 1920s. The speed of this increase is always the same (until the 90s or so). If feminism was the responsible of such changes, you will see the rate of women’s entrance to the workplace increasing during the 60s or 70s. It is not so.

    Women’s entrance to the workplace was an inevitable consequence of economic forces much stronger than feminism. Contraceptives, compulsory schooling and home appliances made most of the housewive work obsolete.

    Suddenly, women didn’t have to work full time to keep a house and take care of the children. The old deal “the man works outside while the woman works at home” stopped being valid. Women had to enter the workplace. Increased productivity created many office jobs devoted to the processing of information where women could work (much better than working in the lands, mines or factories).

    These things happened both in countries that supported feminism and countries that didn’t support it. For example, in Latin America, where feminism was marginal during the 60s, 70s and 80s, the women’s entrance to the workplace was also real. Today, in Saudia Arabia, women are entering universities in masses and nobody could say that there is a strong feminist movement in Saudi Arabia.

    It was a master trick of feminists to claim these changes and to depict men as people who wanted to keep women away from the workplace. In reality, as men have known for millenia and some women are now discovering, most jobs are a burden not a fancy place where you can flirt with alpha males à la Cosmopolitan. With exception of a few very traditionalist guys, men were more than happy that women wanted to share that burden (and free their sexuality too). There was not a significant opposition to women’s entrance to the workplace on behalf of men. This is why all the laws that allowed this were voted by men (which are the majority of politicians).

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    imnobody,

    Mind blowing. I knew about suffrage but never knew about the workplace and to this day I attributed that to feminism (the single credit I give to it). Is there a link where I can check the women entering the marketplace during the last century, per country?

    We really cant believe anything mainstream media says… can we.

    And yes, having a job = burden. Monetary “freedom” comes at a high price.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @imnobody

    Thanks for highlight this myth. I was getting tired of people crediting (or blaming) feminism for women in the work place.

  • imnobody

    @yohami

    I have this information in some books but I have these books at home in Latin America (and now I am in Europe because of my operation). I am remembering all this by heart. I have an image of the graphic in my head but I’ll try to find something on the Internet.

  • detinennui32

    I have no problem with gender equity feminism. Women want to work outside the home or eschew a marriage and family in favor of a 60 hour workweek? I’m fine with that. Most women don’t want that. Given the choice, women are staying home as SAHMs in droves. But that is beside the point.

    What I do have a problem with is the radical feminism that says men and women are exactly the same; that they think and process information the same, and that they react to each other in the same ways.

    I do have a problem with a society that tells boys that all they have to do to attract women is to “be nice” when this is so clearly false and ineffective as to be criminally fraudulent.

    I do have a problem with a society and system that teaches boys and young men absolutely nothing truthful or useful about women, their natures, what they want, what they find attractive, or how and when men can and should extricate themselves from an unproductive, miserable relationship.

    I am angry that parents, family, teachers, religious authorities, and society in general have completely failed boys and men in teaching them about male-female relationships.

    I am angry that society has told boys and men the exact opposite of the truth. I believe this is by design. The truth about hypergamy and women’s natures have been systematically suppressed, even in the face of mountains of scientific evidence confirming and verifying these truths. I believe that feminism is responsible for this. Feminism also teaches that boys’ natural sexual impulses are abnormal, predatory and borderline criminal, and must be suppressed, controlled and purged.

    I don’t agree with the notion that men’s pursuit of women in all cases constitutes sexual harassment. I don’t agree that an awkward man who is trying to get his footing in this SMP is a “creep” or a “loser”. I don’t agree that all sexual conduct by men is a “rape about to happen”.

    Let’s teach men what they can do to be attractive. Let’s help them be the best they can be. Let’s find things they can get good at so they can bring the tingle to at least a few girls. Let’s do things to build them up, not tear them down. Let’s not misdiagnose athletic boys as ADHD and medicate them with Ritalin.

    This is personal to me. I have a daughter who I love very much. I want her to find a good man. I want her to be happy with a man who is confident in himself and who can and will be there for her for the long haul. I don’t want her to give it up to players and douchebags.

    I have a son who I love very much. I don’t want him to make the mistakes I made. I want him to be happy. I don’t want him to waste money or time on girls who maltreat him, use him and then dump him for the next flavor of the month. I don’t want him to hear LJBF five milion times. And when he gets dumped or hears LJBF I don’t want him thinking that it’s always because something’s wrong with him. I want him to be able to recognize and pursue the good ones. I sure as hell don’t want him trying to pump & dump the good ones. I don’t want him to turn into a player or a douchebag.

    I don’t want him wasting the best years of his life sucking up to some entitlement princess who is milking him for his time, money and attention, sucking the very life and self-esteem out of him. I want him to recognize and pass fitness tests. I want him to have the self-confidence that will let him kick an abusive girl to the curb and not lose a second’s sleep over it. I want him to be able to tell a girl in no uncertain terms that he won’t put up with one more ounce of her crap for one more second. I don’t want him spending his college days jerking off to internet porn because he can’t find one — even one — girl that will have anything to do with him. I don’t want him living in my basement, getting fat, watching TV and playing video games.

    I want him to have a happy, full, productive life. And I intend to teach him the truth.

  • Liza207

    “I grew up benefiting from gender equity feminism, and I’m glad that women have career choices and opportunities not available to them before the Women’s Movement. I believe in meritocracy, though – no special favors based on sex. I believe that feminism reached its goals long ago, and has since morphed into a philosophy of female superiority, which I reject as competitive and destructive, not to mention false.”

    Susan,

    Absolutely. The Women’s Movement accomplished a lot for women. And I have definitely benefited but it’s just gone overboard at this point and I don’t see any end to the madness.

    The “gender tug-of-war” exchanges have gotten really exhausting for me and they’re extremely unproductive and a colossal waste of time.

  • imnobody

    @Bb.

    Thank you. In fact, women have always worked. Let me give a simplified storyline

    Before XIX century- Women worked in farms while taking care of the children. The family was a unit of production back then and most work was done at home.

    XIX century – Industrialization makes women and children to work in factories instead of a farm. Only wealthy women can stay at home and it is considered a privilege. It is the Dickens era.

    When the productivity increases and women and children are not needed anymore, laws are issued that forbid or discourage women’s and children’s work. Nevertheless, women keep on working at home, keeping the house and taking care of the kids.

    XX century – When technological advances, make much of the housework obsolete women enter again the workplace.

    These dates are from Europe. In America, the farm era lasted longer. Industrialization was faster.

    If you want to know more, see http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-Nostalgia/dp/0465090974 (I warn you: very boring book although filled with factual information)

  • Tom

    @filabrat
    * Human Nature ™, as you probably guessed (coming from me), means following the “animal side” of your human nature. In my experience, when people say “It’s human nature” (not just in sexual contexts), 9 times out of 10 they mean the animal side of it as distinct from the higher logic-reason functions. Therefore to excuse anything by using “human nature” in this sense is to imply humans have no more capacity for forethought and decision-making than do wild animals. This seems pretty undignified if you ask me, for you are letting your animal nature overcome your true human nature (i.e. mental and behavioral traits truly unique to humans…whether in degree or kind).
    ______________________
    Thats why I posted this quote….
    At any point in her life, if a woman gives herself permission to explore her sexuality she’s at risk of being labelled by others as a skank, a whore, not to mention a bad mother, dirty, immoral, ‘used up’… you get the picture.

    Yet that branding is not only unfair, it’s completely illogical. It somehow assumes that once a woman tastes the power of her sexuality she becomes a slave to her sexual desires – that she can’t be trusted; that her mind and heart no longer factor into the equation of her choices, both present or future.

    The double standard is based on misunderstanding this logic.
    Yes I know all the legal ramifications of divorce in favor of women, but that is not biological in nature.. Yes I know about cuckold. Todays science of birth control and genetic testing solves most of that threat.
    Mens egos are threatened by a sexually knowledgable woman in terms of a potential relationship. Yet for a one nighter with that same woman, he could care less of her past or her ability to compare. Why?, because he is in it for himself, her pleasure nor her opinion, in the scheme of things, doesn`t matter.
    However in the relm of a possible relationship, her opinion DOES matter, and that is what fogs most mens minds.
    Why is it some men could care less of a womans sexual past, and are able to focus on her character, while other men get bent out of shape? Some men understand most women too have a brain and can use it. I would say more men are slaves to their sexual urges than women, and let the little head do the thinking.
    _________________
    @ Susan

    It’s a very poor strategy for women, because the sexual double standard is rooted in biology and cannot be “taught” out of men.

    That my dear is IMPOSSIBLE to prove. It is only a theory, at best.
    I am a perfect example how rational thought changes everything, even how I think of experienced women…..There is no logic at all in automatically dismissing a person based solely on biological predisposition as far as a sexual past goes. People are not animals, they have conscience thought.
    Ego explains the double standard much better. Men do not want to be compared. Their deep insecurity tells them they might be better off long term if their potential mate doesnt know what she might be missing.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Det,

    “I sure as hell don’t want him trying to pump & dump the good ones. I don’t want him to turn into a player or a douchebag. ”

    If he’s not pumping and dumping the good ones, then someone else will be, and rendering them less good with each pump and every dump.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    detinennui32, my hat just went off and I wasnt wearing one. Reading that stuff made me happy, really happy and hopeful. That should be the basis for a manifesto.

  • imnobody

    Great post, detinennui32. I agree wholeheartedly.

  • Tom

    @ Det32…

    A little advice…
    Dont put so much importance on physical appearance. Looks over time, especially with women, will fade. Women are attracted to confident, assertive, nice, non-judgemental guys. Being a fake alpha will only get one laid, but it will not guarantee a lasting relationship. Being a good communicator and a sense of respect for most people are better lesson to teach your kids.

  • Blues

    Thirding, damn good post detinennui32.

  • OffTheCuff

    Tom, that’s great advice for a natural alpha boy, but that kind of advice will make the great mass of beta boys pedestal and deny their own sexuality even more. You really don’t get what it’s like to be beta at all. Your advice runs opposite to what Deti is saying.

  • Blues

    If he’s not pumping and dumping the good ones, then someone else will be, and rendering them less good with each pump and every dump.

    Careful bro, that sounds a lot like rationalization for pump and dump, and eve more closer to chick’s favorite excuse “everyone else is doing it”.

  • detinennui32

    Tom:

    Tom says: Dont put so much importance on physical appearance. Looks over time, especially with women, will fade.

    Deti says: Agree that looks fade, but that’s not the point. The point is that looks are what attract the man initially. A woman who gets the LTR has to have more – a lot more – going for her than just looks. Summer had it; I just didn’t see it. Someone else did see it in her. Someone else always does. Girls who are actually worth something always get snapped up quickly for marriage, because they are so rare. That was the point of the OP.

    Tom says: Women are attracted to confident, assertive, nice, non-judgemental guys.

    deti says: Agree with confident and assertive. In my experience, “nice” in the milquetoasty, overly compliant and supplicating way, repels women. If we’re talking about “nice” as in kind, polite and generally agreeable, then I agree.

    “Nonjudgmental”? Don’t know what that means. Does this mean she can do whatever she wants and I can’t call her out on it? Does this mean that I am never to reach conclusions about her, her conduct and her character? If that’s what it means, then I disagree.

    Tom said: Being a fake alpha will only get one laid, but it will not guarantee a lasting relationship. Being a good communicator and a sense of respect for most people are better lesson to teach your kids.

    deti says: I don’t want my son to be a fake alpha. I want him to be confident in himself and develop his life plan. I want him to understand that “being nice” is not what makes him attractive. I want him to know the truth so that when the dumpings and the LJBFs happen, he won’t think that it’s because he’s not “nice” enough.

    Whenever I got dumped, my parents always told me “well, son, you must not have been very nice to her” or “you weren’t nice enough to her”. So I thought I had to be nicer, more wiling to compromise, more supplicating. But women hate this. And this led to more and more frustration — “I don’t get it. I’m being nice. I’m nicer. I do everything she wants, everything she demands. And she still treats me terribly.” And all I got from everyone around me was “you have to be nice.”

    Being “nice” is fine. But women don’t find it attractive. Tom, don’t you think it’s a good idea to teach boys that immutable fact? I do.

    Being a good communicator doesn’t guarantee lasting relationships or successful relationships. If it did, lawyers and politicians, whose very livelihoods are derived from communicating in the written and spoken word, would have the best marriages. They uniformly don’t. My dad is one of the most articulate, intelligent people I have ever known. He has an unparalleled command of the English language. But he has known only mediocre success in life and he’s beta in his marriage to my mom.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @imnobody
    Mmm would you be interesting in coblogging? My blog is going to promote “gender synergy” and I was thinking in having a male co-blogger to publish articles allong with my POV from an actually fresh out of “patriarchy” Latin woman. I will have a whole section devoted to “feminists lies” and it seems to be a subject you know a think or two, I also like your very balanced approach and writing style. So let me know. :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Blues,

    That’s exactly what it is. If everyone else is doing it, it’s foolish to do otherwise. It’s like trying to play checkers against opponents who are all playing chess. It’s absurd.

  • imnobody

    Well, Stephenie you are flattering me. Thank you very much about your offer. This is a very tempting opportunity.

    I think we have a lot of common. I have lived in your beautiful country and other Latin American countries (for 11 years). We speak the same language and both we have lived in America (I am Spanish from Europe).

    Let me think about it. I would love it but I don’t know if I have time. I have been thinking about publishing a blog in our language, but this has been delayed because of work commitments. Now that I am recovering from my illness I have more time but, in the next 30 days, my work future will be decided and, if you can wait, I can give you a definite answer.

    :-)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @imnobody

    No sabia que eras Latino. Bien :). Asi que has estado en Republica Dominicana. Donde? Que te parecio?

    Well this blog is something I’m planning for the end of the year anyway. So take as much time as you need.
    You can reach me at my email:hypatiaausten@gmail.com. See you soon :)

  • Blues

    That’s exactly what it is. If everyone else is doing it, it’s foolish to do otherwise. It’s like trying to play checkers against opponents who are all playing chess. It’s absurd.

    All I’m saying is don’t make a good woman into damaged goods by pump and dump. Play chess with chess players, go Kasparov on their asses if you want, but don’t shit on the checker players, we don’t need more women playing chess due to a bad burn.

  • Anonymous

    I do have a problem with a society and system that teaches boys and young men absolutely nothing truthful or useful about women, their natures, what they want, what they find attractive, or how and when men can and should extricate themselves from an unproductive, miserable relationship.

    I am angry that parents, family, teachers, religious authorities, and society in general have completely failed boys and men in teaching them about male-female relationships.

    I am angry that society has told boys and men the exact opposite of the truth. I believe this is by design.

    Do you realize that we are all lab rats in a massive experiment? Sex without consequences (i.e. babies) is a relatively new thing. I don’t think men have been duped by design, I think women exploring their sexuality has drawn back the curtain of victorian morality and exposed a whole mess of wants and desires and lust and ambition that nobody really knew about. Being in control of their fertility changed the game big time and social norms haven’t really caught up.

    You would be right to share your wisdom with your son, but I don’t believe there is a conspiracy keeping nice guys from getting laid. I think it’s more a mass confusion on the part of everyone.

    Think about it. 70 years ago, there was no “LJBF phenomenon” because being just friends was the de facto state of relationships until a couple was married. A person could have dates with 3 different people in a week and it wasn’t considered whoring because you wouldn’t be having sex with them. You might have had a commitment with someone, but you would be free to go at any point before the engagement without damaging anything but the other person’s pride. Modern relationships are much more intense by comparison.

  • Anonymous

    Esau, July 22, 2011 at 8:07 am

    Esau: A++.

    That nails it to a T. That is EXACTLY right.

    I can’t believe this is about to become a 400 comment thread. It’s played itself out a couple of times already.

  • imnobody

    Stephanie, soy español, pero he pasado tanto tiempo en América Latina que soy medio latino.

    Estuve en la capital. Tu país es muy hermoso: las playas, las montañas, la calidez y la alegría de la gente. Yo tuve la desgracia de que llegué cuando pasó el huracán Georges. Pero me gustaría volver a pasear por el Conde y tomarme algo en los comercios… Me hicieron mucha gracia los conchos.

    Te escribo a tu correo privado.

  • imnobody

    I agree with Anonymous 12:36. It was not malice. It’s only that the pill changed the game. With the help of other technological and social changes: compulsory schooling, home appliances, modern medicine, etc.

    Hanlon’s razor is right: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”.

    People didn’t know themselves in the patriarchy. My relatives told me that the way to win a woman’s heart is was to be nice, because it was this way during the patriarchy. Women were taught to look for a nice beta provider guy since they were little girls. All this indoctrination and brainwashing was so effective that people (women included) thought that women were this way naturally. The fact that they didn’t taste alpha cock was useful too. My parents get married virgins, for example.

    These were lies but they were useful lies that worked and got society to keep on working. People was born and died without knowing the truth. These lies started in the XII century, with the trobadours and were the basis of Western society. The pedestalization movement peaked in Victorian times and was strong in the fifties. Feminism is only a byproduct of it (but this is another story).

    The pill changed everything decoupling sex and reproduction. People were allowed to follow unleashed natural instincts: “follow your blish”. The concept of duty and collective welfare was jettisoned in favor of a radical individualism and experimentation.

    Our instincts were adapted to the African savannah but even then had checks and balances. They become maladaptive during the patriarchy (hence the brainwashing and indoctrination). Now they return with a vengeance (the vengeance is that they don’t have checks and balances).

    For example, riding the alpha cock carousel was impossible in the African savannah. After the first alpha cock, you got pregnant, your beauty decreased and you were saddled with kids. Suddenly, alphas went to new pastures. Not to mention that, since people lived in tribes, there weren’t a lot of alpha’s available.

    The pill was the Pandora’s box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_box). It started a new self-destructive world. We returned to our natural matriarchy. But every time a matriarchy coexists with a patriarchy (i.e, Islam), the latter takes over.

    We lost the best years of our lives, but it was not because of malice. It was because we lived in times of the most radical change in the history of the West and nobody was prepared for this. Luckily, new generations will learn from our mistakes and they won’t have to endure what we have suffered.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Blues,

    “All I’m saying is don’t make a good woman into damaged goods by pump and dump. ”

    And I’m saying that a woman who’s been pumped and dumped by alpha cads really IS damaged goods in my book.

  • OffTheCuff

    Jesus, don’t take too much of the red pill, man. Women do make mistakes, the good ones learn from it quickly. It’s harsh out there, but there are good people to be found. Not *everyone* is playing chess.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think it’s too late off the cuff. I’ve overdosed on it, gagged them all down my throat. I’m done with relationships.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @imnobody
    Que bien. Lastima que fue durante Georges, yo estaba en la universidad (UASD) cuando paso, pero por lo menos llegaste ver las cosas buenas del pais. Y las malas viste algo de eso?

    Well we shouldn’t hijack the thread so I will wait for the e-mail.

    All this indoctrination and brainwashing was so effective that people (women included) thought that women were this way naturally. The fact that they didn’t taste alpha cock was useful too. My parents get married virgins, for example.

    I will add that people is practical in all ages, anyone that decided to break the norms was fast detected (pregnancy is hard to hide and once upon a time the original Hippocratic oath forbidden doctors for helping women to abort) thus they were punished (sometimes with death) and/or society shunned down. So it was not like they had any incentive to rebel, there was high price to pay for it and it was not worth it for the majority, nowadays the price is low so why not?

  • Matt C

    I think it’s too late off the cuff. I’ve overdosed on it, gagged them all down my throat. I’m done with relationships.

    Is it me, or does all this talk about red pills make you sick to your stomach?

    “Oh Lordy! Lawdy! Another red pill!”

    “That’s a tough red pill to swallow.”

    “Yet another red pill.”

    “Red pill? Red pill. Red pill? Red pill. Red pill??????? Red pill!”

    Gag me.

  • Aldonza

    Is it me, or does all this talk about red pills make you sick to your stomach?

    I like a relatively obscure geeky reference as well as anybody, but this “red pill” analogy is really getting long in the tooth. I don’t like how it makes everything black or white. You either drink the manosphere koolaid, or you’re accused of “choosing the blue pill”. No room for any kind of discourse or acceptance of some precepts while rejecting others.

  • SayWhaat

    Yeahhh I don’t buy that. I’m willing to bet that Summer was the only one you noticed noticing you.

    And this is a clear example of projection of the average female perspective to the average male situation.

    Nope. I was talking about Deti specifically. He had enough Game to pull and keep an 8 (an 8 is an 8, no matter how crazy) so by definition he is above average. It follows that there would have been average girls who would have found him very attractive, Summer included. Summer must have been the only one who stood out because of her relatively higher femininity.

    Don’t worry Deti, your son will get laid plenty in college. It’s whether your daughter will find a suitable boyfriend that you should be worried about.

  • Spinsterlicious

    Here’s an easy one: stop rating people by #s, and pay attention to who they really are!

    eleanore – The Spinsterlicious Life

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Spinsterlicious. It’s not about #’s, I agree. It’s just that if a woman engages in casual sex with a bad boy, alpha jerk, player, etc… then I think she’s worthless to have a relationship with.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Anonymous at 12:36 and @imnobody at 2:20 pm. Thank you for pointing out that many other societal factors brought us to where we are in today’s SMP. Much needed and appreciated.

    Esau I’m working on reading your post. Thanks for the response.

  • OffTheCuff

    I like a relatively obscure geeky reference as well as anybody, but this “red pill” analogy is really getting long in the tooth. I don’t like how it makes everything black or white. You either drink the manosphere koolaid, or you’re accused of “choosing the blue pill”. No room for any kind of discourse or acceptance of some precepts while rejecting others.

    I don’t mean “Red pill” as “manosphere groupthink”, since to me, it means lots things you agree with too. You say that you’re attracted to confident, dominant men and don’t like doormats. It’s obvious to you, but you weren’t raised in a bubble of lies. That’s a “red pill” concept to a guy who’s spent 40 years being told otherwise.

    I meant “red pill” as a shorthand for “now that you have a more accurate perception of how the real SMP works, instead of your beta delusions of being primarily decent and honest instead of attractive.”

    Since we talk about it so much, do you have a better female-approved term I may use? I wouldn’t to offend!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What I find ironic is how some of the women acknowledge that they’d rather have an alpha for short term, but will criticize guys for stepping up and out of the beta roles that society has foisted upon them. As if they’re saying, “yea, those guys are hot, but hang in there and stay beta, cuz we’re going to need you once we get our hormones in check.”

  • Matt C

    I meant “red pill” as a shorthand for “now that you have a more accurate perception of how the real SMP works, instead of your beta delusions of being primarily decent and honest instead of attractive.”

    Most “betas” aren’t honest.

    They pretend they don’t think about sex.

    They pretend to not think of women sexually.

    They pretend that they are real “friends” when they just desire the girl sexually.

    They pretend that they are attracted to girls because of their personalities and not because of fertility cues (aka looks).

    They pretend that they like to go out of their way to do all these nice things for the girl they like instead of doing what they actually want to do.

    That’s a lot of pretending/flat out lying for someone who could be thought of as “honest”. I have come to believe in the past few months that a requirement is to be attractive is to be honest about who you are and what you stand for.

    Unattractive guy: “I hope people will like whoever I pretend to be for them.”
    Attractive guy: “I am who I am. You are free to like who I really am or not.”

  • Blues

    I like a relatively obscure geeky reference as well as anybody, but this “red pill” analogy is really getting long in the tooth. I don’t like how it makes everything black or white. You either drink the manosphere koolaid, or you’re accused of “choosing the blue pill”. No room for any kind of discourse or acceptance of some precepts while rejecting others.

    I can somewhat agree with you Aldonza, it shouldn’t have to be black or white, but why is that?, because the ability for the average woman to have some introspection and self critique is rare to non existent, the even bigger problem is that when critique comes from an outside source it’s immediately dismissed, overlooked or shamed no matter if said source is even another woman, just look at the comments from most women to Susan’s Feminism vs Femininity post.

  • Blues

    I think what women don’t comprehend is the average male perspective in the SMP before/without red pill knowledge, read this and tell me it still doesn’t make sense afterward.

  • Matt C

    I can somewhat agree with you Aldonza, it shouldn’t have to be black or white, but why is that?, because the ability for the average woman to have some introspection and self critique is rare to non existent, the even bigger problem is that when critique comes from an outside source it’s immediately dismissed, overlooked or shamed no matter if said source is even another woman, just look at the comments from most women to Susan’s Feminism vs Femininity post.

    This is true for most people. Most people (not just women) can’t look in the mirror and see why they fail.

    For men, it is easier to see whythey fail because their value in the market is more upfront. If an unattractive guy approaches 10 women and they all tell him to fuck off, he’ll know he’s unattractive (and this could take just a couple hours to find out). For women it can be EXTREMELY difficult to see their market value because most men won’t let women know where they stand, upfront (because sexy time>>>>>>telling a woman to fuck off).

  • Matt C

    Interesting article I had on my toolbar for some reason that relates exactly to what I said: http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/23352/72percent-prefer-gaming-to-girlfriends.

    Here’s a quote from it:
    “1 in 3 British men would prefer to play video games than sleep with their partner, with 72% claiming they’d shun their missus for the night to play a new release.

    From a study of 1130 British men, of those in relationships, 32% that said they would prefer to play video games gave reasons ranging from their “partner being hard to please” to the prospect being “not as much fun” as gaming.”

    Here’s the site I got it off of: http://aleknovy.com/2010/01/17/why-men-are-increasingly-prefering-videos-games-over-dating-mating-and-courtship/.

  • Leanne

    What I find ironic is how some of the women acknowledge that they’d rather have an alpha for short term, but will criticize guys for stepping up and out of the beta roles that society has foisted upon them. As if they’re saying, “yea, those guys are hot, but hang in there and stay beta, cuz we’re going to need you once we get our hormones in check.”

    So… is this any different from what is expected of women? Men want sluts for the short term and really hot buff virgins for the long term. Here’s a question. Why would a really hot buff virgin choose to stay that way? What is there in the culture that would validate her value? You claimed earlier that a woman who had been pumped and dumped by an alpha was damaged goods. The culture would say differently. When’s the last time you heard a song on the radio about a virgin? T.V. program that rewarded such? Magazine article geared toward teens?
    Behaviour from males that rewards virtue?
    As a teen I lost my virginity without even telling the boy because the message I received was that it was an embarassment.

    So,we’ve all been lied to. Live and learn. But if you want to rationalize pumping and dumping, while being petulant about women who are damaged goods…well once you’ve done slutting around, I’m sure you’ll find that really hot 9 virgin. After all, you deserve her. And you won’t settle for less.

  • OffTheCuff

    So… is this any different from what is expected of women?

    Yes.

    Men want sluts for the short term

    SOME men, the high-value ones.

    and really hot buff virgins for the long term.

    You lost me. No man actually says or believes this.

  • Leanne

    The virgin thing? Yep, I’ve read it in the manosphere. At the very least, a low number count.

  • Blues

    @Matt C: that last article is precisely the same i posted, it summarizes male perspective perfectly.

  • Blues

    The virgin thing? Yep, I’ve read it in the manosphere. At the very least, a low number count.

    Virgin =/= low number count

    Now low number count is true for those seeking LTRs or marriage.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leanne,

    I don’t want a virgin. Not that I would disqualify a girl for being one, but virginity isn’t something more highly prized to me. What I don’t want is a girl who’s messed around casually with guys. I don’t care if the culture tells them to do a train of guys at a frat party. Nobody has to listen to the culture.

    And yea, I’m going the way of the player now. Why the hell not? I’m giving up on love, because too many women seem, like you, to follow the culture. And sorry, but I just don’t think those women are worth being decent for.

    And I can assure you that I have no plans to ever settle down with anyone anymore, least of all a “decent girl.” First, because I’m not sure I’d have faith in her decency. And second, because if she really were decent, I’d leave her for one of nice guys.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Of course low number count would be desirable in a LTR. Ironically, my fiancee always said she had a great deal of respect for me, because I’d only been with 2 other women. Of course, that was before I found out that there were 2 dozen other guys before me.

  • Leanne

    I think you’re reading me wrong. I don’t follow the culture, however , when I was younger, I was influenced by it. Unfortunately, I think crass culture will be the fall of our civilization.

    O.K., so now you’re a player. Spending time and energy on women that you don’t think are worth being decent for. And the decent girls are out because you can’t really trust if they’re decent.

    How long can an individual or a society last if our decisions are fear based?

    Jesus, I’m sorry that you’ve given up on love.

  • filrabat

    Jesus Mahoney: What I find ironic is how some of the women acknowledge that they’d rather have an alpha for short term, but will criticize guys for stepping up and out of the beta roles that society has foisted upon them. As if they’re saying, “yea, those guys are hot, but hang in there and stay beta, cuz we’re going to need you once we get our hormones in check.”

    Leanne: So… is this any different from what is expected of women? Men want sluts for the short term and really hot buff virgins for the long term.

    Leanne, it’s not so different IF you are talking of people who hang around “pick-up” type scenes and social cliques that encourage ONSs. It IS different if you are talking about more mature, civilized, and calm places, lifestyles and venues in which you’d find more serious-minded people who generally do not go for “pick-up” scenes. I say that for both genders btw.

    In the end, a lot of it comes down to which kind of lifestyle you lead and what kind of people you have as socializing acquanitainces or even real friends. You can definitely tell a lot about a person by the type of company they keep.

  • Abbot

    women exploring their sexuality
    .
    what does that mean, for the 29th time? Do men EXPLORE their sexuality? or do they just carry on with old school “fucking”? Who coined that term? Are men necessary to participate in order for women to “explore”? Dependency on men never seems to go away, does it? Is it just assumed that men are always willing to jump in and be “exploration” helpers? Do men actively seek out pre-explored women as a qualification for marriage, or just for sex, as one would assume?
    .
    social norms haven’t really caught up
    .
    That is entirely up to men and only they get to decide if that happens and the response is ….NO. Mostly because, well, they dont have to. And they know full well there is no advantage for themselves in “catching up” They will take the fun from it, exploration or otherwise, and then move on to the rest of the world’s women. AKA the majority.
    .
    a mass confusion on the part of everyone.
    .
    No, actually its quite clear. There is a fringe group, and everyone else. A common pattern throughout history. Move along. Nothing to see here. Just a five min. revolting listen to Jaclyn Friedman takes away any confusion. ALL young boys should be forced to listen to her so they can start with a wise selection criteria.
    .
    Modern relationships are much more intense by comparison
    .
    And thats all due to some women choosing to have sex without resultant babies? So then, all of a woman’s so called modernity relies on artificial chemicals produced in labs. Now thats something to be proud of!

  • Abbot

    a woman gives herself permission to explore her sexuality
    .
    What does that mean, now for the 31st time? There has to be some some sort of script or playbook where this stuff comes from. Its too uncanny that its repeated over and over like a propaganda mantra by “different” commenters here. Men fuck. Women explore. Ok. Does that make everyone here feel better? Heck, I do. It feels better to know they are not out there fucking the same 13 percent of all dudes all the other women are fucking. The women are merely passing around always willing exploration agents. What if me did that? “Hey Luke, how was last night?” Aww golly gee, this women allowed herself to let me explore my sexuality. And then I never saw her again.” Now, you see how “nice” that is. Men dont get to fuck either or ever have to say they did.
    .
    a woman tastes the power of her sexuality
    .
    Now, you just cant make that shit up. Who exactly is giving her this taste? In reality, its a select small group of men who are the ones doing the tasting, the same way a chef samples the food before distributing it to men who have to deal with the rest of the meal for life. But of course, the female readers here FEEL much better being duped into believing they are tasting power when in fact no man will turn down the hooch. Yep, some power ya got there. But in the end, a pre tasted woman is not negatively impacted whatsoever by the tasting sessions.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leeane,

    I don’t think my decisions are fear-based. I grew up being the boy “every girl would be lucky to have except that no girl could see it yet.” You go through high school and college with a lot of girl “friends” and very few girlfriends that way. Of course, you make it that far and then there actually are women who appreciate that in a guy.

    But in general, these appreciative women have had their share of cads in the past. In fact, they claim that’s what makes you so special. And I’m sure they really believe it when they say that. However, that doesn’t negate the fact that they’ve made the rounds of the cads they thought were more fun in their youths.

    On the one hand these girls will say how much they respect you that you’ve always treated women with kind regard, and on the other they’ll say that they’re better able to appreciate you because they’ve been with enough guys who didn’t treat them with respect, were just after one thing (which they’ve invariably given up in attempt to “change” the bad boy or some stupid thing), or played the field way too much.

    The way girls would have it, a guy like me should be thankful to the players who’ve fucked them silly, because they helped show the girls how great of an alternative a guy like me was. That, at least, was my fiancee’s point of view.

    The problem with that is that I wanted to have crazy sex all growing up also. I was just programmed to believe that that was “bad” and that I had to have a girl’s respect first, which you got by being decent and genuinely interested in her as a person first. All that, of course, is bullshit, and any woman who fucks a cad or a player or a cocky alpha jerk only confirms the fact that it’s bullshit.

    It just took me a bit to figure out that most girls have done that.

    It’s not that I fear that women aren’t who they pretend to be. It’s that I’ve discovered that they almost never are. Love becomes all but impossible when you’ve been raised to think that decent self-respecting girls love gentlemen and find out instead that women’s ‘ginas tingle more when faced with a cocky womanizer.

  • Natural Lolita

    “I don’t care if the culture tells them to do a train of guys at a frat party. Nobody has to listen to the culture.

    And yea, I’m going the way of the player now. Why the hell not? I’m giving up on love, because too many women seem, like you, to follow the culture. ”

    Let me see if I got this right. You’re saying “nobody has to listen to the culture” but you are going to “listen to the culture” and “go the way of the player” just because women have “listened to the culture”, all the while still saying that “nobody has to listen to the culture”.

  • imnobody

    @Stephenie

    You’re right. Let’s not hijack this job. Te escribo a tu email.

    @Abbot

    It seems that feminism has a language of their own:

    “exploring their sexuality” – fucking around.
    “following their bliss” – fucking with somebody new.
    “strong independent woman” – any woman who has a job.
    “patriarchy” – system where men serve women so women can leave their lives easier
    “matriarchy” – system where men don’t serve women so women must have it all and work as a father and a mother.
    “career” – job
    “friend” – secret enemy
    “nice guy” – chump
    “quality man” – an alpha that I have or I want to have.
    “jerk”/”asshole”/”manwhore” – an alpha that has dumped me
    “my husband is emotionally distant” – I want another man
    “I do it for the good of the children” – I do it for me

    I could go on and on. On one hand, a new “reality” demands a new language. Changing the language you can change the culture and the behavior, as George Orwell showed in the book 1984 (“doublespeak”) and the Church of Scientology has put into practice.

    On the other hand, It’s the old desire of having their cake and eat it too. They want to do these things but they don’t want to be disaproved because of doing them. So they try to disguise them
    See this (http://www.salon.com/life/since_you_asked/2011/07/19/foreign_service/index.html):

    “We all need intimacy, will seek it out, and act upon it no matter the violations of integrity.”

    Translation: I fucked a married man

    @Blues

    The one that got away for me, the one that I still pine for was a virgin. No more virgins for me. EVER.

  • Leanne

    Jesus,
    The crap we go through in high school is enough to warp anyone. College is only slightly better. We’re murdering ourselves. But we can’t blame the culture once we’ve woken up to it.

    i stand by the fear based thing, but I’ll get to that.

    And you’re right. Alphas get a large share of of the sexual market. Then again, so do certain types of girls. When you’re young this is confusing because both behaviours are rewarded. And if you think girls don’t have similar stupidity going on, or end up in the friend zone, you’re not observant.

    At the beginning of highschool, I was the girl that the guys always wanted to ask advice from. Well, that and to get help with their homework. Even had a male bully. Couldn’t get favorable male attention if my life depended on it. So was I ugly?fat? No. Just nice. Anyhow, a friend of mine pleaded with me to try out for cheer leading with her because she didn’t want to go alone. I did, and ended up with a place on the team. Life changed.

    So did guys care if these girls were loud and attention seeking? Did they care if they were snotty? Nope. They radiated confidence, and that seemed to be enough. Alpha and beta guys alike. Now HERE’S an interesting observation. If I didn’t act like the other girls, it was the GUYS that called me out. Even something as subtle as the my tone of voice would be noted. If it was too high and soft, and not hard edged, they would start imitating it.

    Long story short, nice didn’t cut it when it came to obtaining male attention from betas or alphas. But it was exhausting . Despite offers, I didn’t have a boyfriend until the next year. We were together for 6 months until my birthday party. Big bash, got trashed,and he slept with my best friend.Virginity’s a bitch.
    So was I, cause I turned around and threw it away on his best friend. Quite the party.Sad times. Turned slutty for a while but it just seemed so dehumanizing.

    College was only slightly better . I’d gotten married to a nice beta guy , and juggling college, marriage and a baby was hard. Hubby left me right before finals. Bar sluts and dating sites were more fun. I contemplated suicide. We eventually reconcilled, but is was fucked up.

    So my point is that nice girls and nice guys seem to be at a disadvantage. We muddle along the best we can with the messages we’re given. And the message that we’re given is that we’re not good enough.

    Now about that fear based stuff.
    If you were really honest, how many guys, yourself included got into the game lifestyle because you didn’t want to risk getting hurt? How many of the guys that you know, perhaps yourself, would gladly give up ever feeling love or passion, in exchange for a sense of power and sex? To only casually like a girl, but not love, because that might make you vulnerable. And when your physiology changes because of the lifestyle, and you literally can’t feel anymore? will you miss the very things that make life worth living? Love and passion. Or will invulnerability be more important ?

  • imnobody

    “And you’re right. Alphas get a large share of of the sexual market. Then again, so do certain types of girls. ”

    This is a true often dismissed in the manosphere. Apex phallacy work both ways. When guys say: “Women ride the alpha cock carousel and then settle for a beta”, they are not talking about the fattie who is thirty pounds overweight. There are talking about young attractive women.

    When men talk about “men”, they mean “alphas” (8 and 9). When men talk about “women”, they mean attractive women (7, 8 and 9).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When guys say: “Women ride the alpha cock carousel and then settle for a beta”, they are not talking about the fattie who is thirty pounds overweight. There are talking about young attractive women.

      I estimate that 20% of women are promiscuous, i.e. riding the carousel. Fewer than 20% of real beauties sell themselves short in this way, and probably 40% of women in the mid-range of attractiveness accept casual sex as the price of (faux) male validation.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Natural Lolita,

    I’m not listening to the culture, I’m just listening to my dick.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Leanne,

    I’m not sure it’s fear-based, because I’m simply seeing how things work now. Maybe you went through a slut phase and it’s over now. I just couldn’t be in a relationship with a girl who’s had a slut phase. I was raised thinking that the way to treat women was with respect and regard for their humanity. One of the results of this is that that I am deeply attracted to girl who respect themselves and regard their own humanity as important. A girl who fucks alpha jerks–especially one who sluts around with them (i.e. doing it casually) doesn’t respect herself enough in my book. And can’t be trusted. The shame of it is, that just about every girl with the opportunity has been a bit of a slut for cads at some point.

    Me avoiding love in our culture is no more fear-based than a child deciding not to touch the stove because he realizes it’s hot. That is to say, it’s NOT based on fear; it’s based on an understanding of my environment.

    The idea of reaching out and making a genuine connection with a person is nice. But I know how it is to try to love a reformed slut. That’s why I broke off my engagement.

  • Blues

    When men talk about “men”, they mean “alphas” (8 and 9). When men talk about “women”, they mean attractive women (7, 8 and 9).

    Here’s the thing, while what you say holds true for most women in the 7 and up range just like you say, most of the 7 and lower range women while not having the same “alpha experience” sort of speak do have the attitude of the 7 and up range, lemme quote the article here:

    “I like you, you look like a cute guy, now I want you to come over here, ask me out at the EXACT time that I want to be asked out, in the exact way that I want to be asked out, act in the exact ways that I find sexy/romantic… read my thoughts and initiate things in just the RIGHT way.

    If you don’t, I will label you a wuss loser that’s scared of strong women. If you do approach and ask me out, but slightly misread my signals I will criticize you as being a douche-bag, pushy loser, dumb-ass, retard or a womanizer.

    You are required to know exactly the kind of clothes and haircut that I like on men. If you fail to fit my exacting taste, I will accuse you of being a loser who doesn’t get what women want, and I will complain about what a “retard” dared ask me out today.

    Oh, and by the way, I want you to know what I want without me ever telling you, because it is not my job to teach you what women want. It is not my job to teach you the proper way to approach, ask out or initiate sex with women.

    I will conveniently forget the fact that no two women have the exact same preference, and I will shame you for not performing to my exact preference. I will accuse you of being either a loser, a pervert, a creep or a man-child if you don’t perform to my exact personal preference.

    Should you decide to not pursue me and go for alternatives like escorts, video-games or porn, I will mock you, shame you and refer to you as dumb-ass loser who can’t “handle” a real woman, and heck, I might as well spit in your face for daring to seek out alternatives to great ‘ol ME!

    In fact, I will go so far as to say that “guys like you” leaving the dating pool are doing humanity a service by leaving. No more loser genes in the dating pool, har har har!

    What, you don’t like being called names and criticized!? Don’t you know a real man needs to take all that verbal abuse just to have the privilege of being with me! Don’t you know that this is your job as a man? Grow up and fulfill my desires. NOW!”

    In my experience it’s a real challenge finding a woman out there that is available and doesn’t display that attitude to a greater or lesser degree, i know they exist cause i’ve seen them, but either missed the chance because i had no game, are already engaged/married or are part of previous generations.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I’d say that the number of women who’ve messed around casually with a cad is much higher than that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d say that the number of women who’ve messed around casually with a cad is much higher than that.

      Yes, most attractive women have been burned by a cad or two. But messing around casually with a cad is not the same as riding the alpha cock carousel. That 20% refers to the habitually promiscuous.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Not burned by cads, screwed by cads. I think most girls know what’s what when they’re hooking up with a cad, even if they say otherwise. One of the reasons I’m done with relationships.

  • Blues

    Not burned by cads, screwed by cads. I think most girls know what’s what when they’re hooking up with a cad, even if they say otherwise. One of the reasons I’m done with relationships.

    I can support this, both because i’ve seen commenter admit it here AND seen it in real life with an acquaintance, i’ll let you guess how that went, it starts at 30 and matches with a “tick tock” sound.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I reject to the use of the word “burned” because it suggests that women don’t realize that the cads they’re hooking up with are cads. It’s quite possible that by hooking up with a cad, they’re foolishly trying to turn it into something more, but it still points to the level of sexual attraction women feel for cads that they’re willing to bed a few without commitment before deciding they need to choose a long term mate from Beta Boulevard.

    I just have no respect for women who do this. And frankly I have no respect for men who see how it is and still wait for the table scraps to fall off of alpha’s plate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I reject to the use of the word “burned” because it suggests that women don’t realize that the cads they’re hooking up with are cads.

      There is no question that women are routinely deceived by cads. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. That applies – and that still leaves a lot of victims to account for. In college, these are most typically freshmen. Players here have acknowledged this is part of their strategy.

      Women are attracted to good looking, dominant men. And most women are unwilling to accept that those two characteristics are never or rarely accompanied by good character. Again, for the benefit of those relatively new to HUS, cads are distinguished by their methods of deceit. A player who is open about his intentions is not doing anything wrong. A woman who gets with him is entirely responsible for her own choices.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    lol, I “object” to the world “burned….

  • Jesus Mahoney

    omg, I object to the “word” “burned.” I need to edit before I hit post.

  • Lavazza

    Imnobody:

    “It seems that feminism has a language of their own:

    “exploring their sexuality” – fucking around.
    “following their bliss” – fucking with somebody new.
    “strong independent woman” – any woman who has a job.
    “patriarchy” – system where men serve women so women can leave their lives easier
    “matriarchy” – system where men don’t serve women so women must have it all and work as a father and a mother.
    “career” – job
    “friend” – secret enemy
    “nice guy” – chump
    “quality man” – an alpha that I have or I want to have.
    “jerk”/”asshole”/”manwhore” – an alpha that has dumped me
    “my husband is emotionally distant” – I want another man
    “I do it for the good of the children” – I do it for me”

    Good list.

    In Sweden feminists also use “responsibilty” for all areas where women have more power and/or freedom than men, and “power/oppression” for all areas where men have more power (obligations) than women.

    Examples off my head: “Women take responsibility for planning family vacations”, “Women take responsibility in deciding where the family lives”, “Women take responsibility” in decisions concerning the children”, “Women take responsibilty in deciding between abortion or not” and so on.

    Here’s a really weird article about men lacking in responsibility when it comes to come and look at their children doing “Lucia” (a kind of Christmas carol). What is failed to be mentioned is that only 10 % of mothers of young children work full time, whereas almost all fathers of young children work full time. Still 30 % of the fathers show up, shich I think should rather be celebrated as a massive care and investment from the fathers’ side.

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/wendela/article8270618.ab

  • Lavazza

    Yeah, the biological clock thing is really doing it for attractive or reasonably attractive men who have avoided getting married and having kids. One example is a collegue of mine who I have known from his late thirties to his late forties. He is a weird looking guy, with a kind of weird behaviour, but he is not afraid to talk to women and he’s sticking to women in his 4-6 range, and he’s always have different girlfriends. A good looking greater beta, lower alpha guy (8-9) I have known from his late twenties to his mid thirties has been striking out like crazy among all the 26-32 YO single women at work in the 6-9 range (the most good looking women leave him after a while for more commitment oriented guys with lower SMV, but quite often he’s been able to keep the girls as FBs for some time). He had a GF from 16 to 24, but I guess he could not help noticing his increasing SMV and started cheating on her. Sometimes he remenisces about her. I am not sure if it’s regrets or just an effort to not sound to much of a cad.

  • detinennui32

    Interesting discussion between Leanne and Jesus Mahoney.

    Leanne asked re men stepping up and out of beta to become more alpha, and that men are being criticized for it, and said is this any different from what happens with women, and why a virgin would stay a virgin.

    LEanne, your scenario leaves out the differences between men and women. And it’s a subtle attempt at shaming (hypocrite! Men can sleep around and not be judged, so you men have no right to judge women for doing the same thing!!)

    Well, men and women are hardwired two different ways. Men want sexual quantity to “spread the seed” far and wide. Women want only the best men so she can get the best genes to sire her children, and thus ensure survival of the species.

    Men are far less sexually selective than women. So long as she’s not repulsive, she’ll get the job done.

    Women aren’t like that. I submit that women who sleep around don’t do so because they really like the sexual variety. Women who sleep around are looking for the best man, or at least the best one she can get.

    So, being alpha or a facsimile thereof is EXPECTED of men. Without it, they are left out. By contrast, it appears to me that women don’t have to work nearly as hard for male attention. it is a lot easier for young women to get male attention and suitors than it is for men. Men are much more sexually available to women than women are to men. You yourself said you had offers from potential boyfriends in HS — and without putting out, too.

    And Leanne, I don’t live in the “game lifestyle”, but being in the manosphere a few months I can sure see why Jesus M and folks like him live it. It’s not about fear of commitment or immaturity or fear of being hurt. It’s about what works.

    I absolutely agree there are lots and lots of great women out there who have been burned by a cad or three. But that’s not the same as riding the alpha carousel. Were I in the dating market now, I would not have to have a virgin for an LTR. But I would not want someone with a partner count of 30 either.

    Jesus is right when he expresses mistrust for carousel riders as relationship material. There is growing scientific evidence showing that former carousel riders are high divorce risks. The reason being that a woman who has tasted lots of alpha cock never lets her beta husband measure up to her beautiful alphas who would not marry her. So, Leanne, I don’t think you can discount Jesus’ viewpoint on this.

    Jesus is also right when he says incorporating game into his life is not about fear, but an honest assessment of the surrounding environment. Game works, Leanne. Why would you begrudge a man figuring out what will work in his life?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I just have to say thanks to Sue and everybody who posts here. This site, probably more than any other resource, has helped me to understand the dynamics of male-female relationships in today’s SMP. I was confused and hurt when I first came here. And I was much more hurt when first reading everything I’ve read. But it’s been a hurt that’s allowed me to grow, to change, and to embrace the Alpha in me that I’ve been holding back and denying in an attempt to be a decent beta guy.

    So thanks to all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      But it’s been a hurt that’s allowed me to grow, to change, and to embrace the Alpha in me that I’ve been holding back and denying in an attempt to be a decent beta guy.

      If I do my job right, you’ll be a decent alpha guy.

  • detinennui32

    Leanne:

    here’s another thing. It really sticks in my craw. Men like Jesus M and me grew up being told that we had to be “nice guys” and we would get women that way. IT DOES NOT WORK. But while we were slowly discovering that, we watched the jockheads, the jerks and the Harley riders getting all the women and all the sex.

    Then, women get to be around 28 or 29 and racked up a partner count of somewhere between 10 and 25. She’s hitting thw wall. Now she wants a beta provider because she can’t pull the alphas anymore. (And Jesus is right – a lot of women hook up with cads knowing what they are getting into.) So she sexes up a beta boyfriend who is grateful for the attention, pressures him for marriage, pumps out a kid or two, decides she doesn’t like her “Nice” beta and wants more alpha cock, divorces beta, and takes half his stuff.

    And to boot, she put out for the alphas before. She’s now putting out for the betas she would not even look at 10 years ago. To add insult to injury, she demands that they MARRY her and SUPPORT her.

    So many betas like Jesus M are wising up, and saying: uhhh, you wouldn’t give me the time of day 10 years ago. Now you want me to pay full price for you after you’ve given it up for everyone else? Now you want me to believe you when you say you’ll love, honor and cherish me and be faithful to me, when you’ve loved, honored and cherished 20 guys before me?? No thanks, I’ll pass.

    Can you kinda see why guys like Jesus M think that’s a pretty bad deal for them?

    Can you kinda see why guys like Jesus M might not want to go through that?

  • detinennui32

    Reading over the past 40 or so comments, I just don’t get it.

    Women hate betas for being “nice”, “unattractive”, “creeps”, and “Losers”.

    Then when a beta figures out that being nice doesn’t get him the female attention he would like, he gets some alpha traits and shows some dominance.

    Then those same women say he’s a poser, a pretender; that he’s “dishonest”, “afraid of commitment”, “afraid of being hurt”, fears “vulnerability” and is “afraid to love”.

    Men just can’t win. If we’re beta, we can’t get sex because we’re too nice and “creepy”.

    if we’re alpha, we’re insolent, insensitive jerks and pricks who are “afraid to love”.

    For God’s sake, WHAT DO YOU WOMEN WANT!!!????

  • http://www.practicalpickup.com/ Mark

    “For God’s sake, WHAT DO YOU WOMEN WANT!!!????”

    It’s not about being “alpha” or “beta,” it’s about being needy or non-needy. You can be “alpha” and still be completely needy. You can be “beta” and be completely neediness.

    Neediness is the opposite of attraction.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    All I’m saying then is that if women are attracted to these good looking dominant men who by-and-large lack character, then these women lack character themselves. Any beta man who is willing to marry a woman like that is a fool, and any woman who living out this dichotomous co-dependency (dual mating strategy) is just a self serving, worthless person in my view.

    I liked the person I was when I was beta. I was a decent and caring person, but it was a bit like being a pool player determined to follow the rules of 8 ball at a 9 ball tournament. It was absurd. If a man is beta and married to a woman that freely admits that she finds alpha men more sexually attractive, then I think that there is something fundamentally wrong and pathetic with that guy. He embraces his own lower status. It’s demeaning to be a beta man in a sexual relationship with a woman.

    And I’m sorry, I refuse to be beta for a woman who’s fucked alpha jerks, whether she was naive about the outcome or not. Because the only reason that women decide to go for the beta guys is that they know that they can’t really keep the ones they really tingle for around.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Well, Sue, as for doing your job right, I think you’re putting the truth out there. And that’s important work. I just can’t respect women enough anymore to be decent for them.

  • Anonymous

    “it’s based on an understanding of my environment.”
    .
    That’s why ideological sluts and sex pozzies are so concerned about “correct” understandings, aka propaganda. Heck, some have already commented in this thread

  • OffTheCuff

    Jesus, I hope you’ve learned lesson #2 of SMV reality: nearly all women will try to talk you out of “exploring your sexuality” when you dare attempt breaking out of the beta-provider-exclusive mindset. Nearly all of the arguments boil down to “even though I had my fun, you can’t have yours”. They’re just asking you to place all women above your own needs. Breaking that *neediness* (as Mark said) is key. Heed only advice from successful men on this topic.

  • SayWhaat

    All I’m saying then is that if women are attracted to these good looking dominant men who by-and-large lack character, then these women lack character themselves.

    I disagree. Again, you’re deliberately ignoring what Susan has said about naive (freshman) women being deceived by cads. If he’s got the dominance and good looks, she’s going to reallly really want to believe he’s a good guy as well. Unless extraordinary evidence demonstrates otherwise, she’s going to believe he does have character, until the day the truth comes out and she gets burned. Then she becomes jaded and cynical.

    This is just going to be a part of the typical girl’s experience. She can’t learn how to weed out the men of poor character without having a bad experience, any bad experience. Hell, I used to get bullied by guys in school who held alpha status. That was shitty, but I learned the truth right there that good-looking guys with status are rarely good people, and once I came of age it’s applied in my dating life ever since.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    That’s fine that it’s part of the typical girl’s experience. I’m just saying I don’t want a relationship with the typical girl then, because i lack too much respect for her.

  • Imnobody

    Women hate betas for being “nice”, “unattractive”, “creeps”, and “Losers”.

    Then when a beta figures out that being nice doesn’t get him the female attention he would like, he gets some alpha traits and shows some dominance.

    Then those same women say he’s a poser, a pretender; that he’s “dishonest”

    But this is exactly the point. Because a beta with Game is not a true alpha: he is only faking it to a certain extent. This is why women don’t like Game: it makes hard to distinguish between the true alphas and the ones who have learned about negs, shit tests and IOIs and can do a good simulation.

    It is like you are going to buy a car and you are thinking that you have just bought a new car while it is only an old car that has been painted. Women are the same: they don’t want to buy a lemon.

    Women want to be able to distinguish betwen alphas and betas, so they can decide who they are going to get laid with, who they are going to have a relationship with, who are going to friendzone, who are going to ignore in every time of her life. So they want to have the best information possible. Information is power.

    At the same time, they don’t want to give too much information because they don’t want to lose power. So women are not known for being straight or direct. The saying “A man is only as good as his word” does not apply to a woman. The appearance of woman is always faked to a certain extent. Clothes, make up, high heels present the woman in the best light possible. Their language is not about giving information, but about disguising it and communicating feelings.

    By contrast, men wear boring clothes, don’t put on make up, are straight when they talk: they communicate information. “A man is a good as his word”. But this does not apply to women.

    Information is power. So all this advices of “Be honest! Be yourself!” on behalf of a gender who has been known for millenia not to be straight or honest boil down to having the best information for the man while trying not to do the same.

    This is asymmetric information like in a market for lemons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons)

    It was this way until some years ago. Now with game, both genders can deceive and get what they want by faking it. Even clothes and makeup are used by guys like Mistery. It’s normal that women don’t like it. It takes power from them.

    This remembers me a scene of an episode of “Sex and the city” where Carrie goes to L.A. and finds a man who is pretending that he is wealthy and he shows her all his mansions. Carrie “swoons” and sleeps with him. The morning after, the real owner of the mansion comes (the guy is only an employee of his) and Carrie is outraged because she has slept with somebody who is only a commoner.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But this is exactly the point. Because a beta with Game is not a true alpha: he is only faking it to a certain extent.

      A beta with inner game is the real deal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @anonymous at 1:05 on 7/23

      Your comment is insightful and thought-provoking. I wonder why women are so eager to distinguish between natural alphas and learned alphas. A lot of naturals also learned dominance, albeit at a young age. There’s obviously a large social conditioning piece. Yes, on the savannah women needed to sniff out the survival genes and they sought high T men, including the prehistoric “bad boys.” That strategy isn’t sensible today. So what if a guy learned Game? We don’t actually need someone who is
      brave with a spear. The proxy of learned social dominance is more than adequate.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    It seems that feminism has a language of their own:

    Oh and don’t forget heteronormative, patriarchy, victim blaming…if you are interested I’m going to ban this words in the blog for anyone that wants to discuss my POV. Okay you want to make your point? If you can do it without breaking open the “Feminism big words of I won” you have all my attention. No short cuts allowed for open debate!. So sick of them and really they mean nothing actually they just made out words to look “empowered”

  • detinennui32

    Anon at 1:05: exactly.

    That’s kind of the feeling I get when I see things like:

    “Yeah, I know I let those 25 other guys before you screw me silly. I had a great time until I got burned. So I’m not like that anymore. I’ve changed. I’m a good girl now. I want to settle down, have 2.4 kids, be a SAHM, and I want you to pay for it all for me. Where’s my ring and my wedding?”

  • Stephenie Rowling

    She can’t learn how to weed out the men of poor character without having a bad experience, any bad experience.

    Well once upon a time this was parents job tell their children about the truths of the market and once upon a time kids actually believe it, specially because there was a high price to pay. Nowadays how many mothers tell their girls the truth about men? Few because many of them don’t know either, PC has sold the idea that men and women are the same so much that they start to believe it themselves. “If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.”

    And fathers are not allowed to care about their girls sexuality anymore. In Jezebel there was an article about a man asking what to do with his daughters slutty friends and all the commenter started to shame him calling him a creep for the idea of caring about the sexuality of any girl, regardless of association with his own blood and flesh…yep that will work out so well.

  • imnobody

    I am imnobody and the previous comment was approved by me :-)

  • Blues

    Jesus, I hope you’ve learned lesson #2 of SMV reality: nearly all women will try to talk you out of “exploring your sexuality” when you dare attempt breaking out of the beta-provider-exclusive mindset. Nearly all of the arguments boil down to “even though I had my fun, you can’t have yours”. They’re just asking you to place all women above your own needs. Breaking that *neediness* (as Mark said) is key. Heed only advice from successful men on this topic.

    Sorely noted. Is lesson #1 of SMV “watch what they do, not what they say”?.

    I disagree. Again, you’re deliberately ignoring what Susan has said about naive (freshman) women being deceived by cads.

    Which is fine if it happened once, twice tops, everything else? she’s riding the carousel, even if unwittingly.

    If he’s got the dominance and good looks, she’s going to really really want to believe he’s a good guy as well.

    Why is what she wants to believe despite reality men’s problem?

    Unless extraordinary evidence demonstrates otherwise, she’s going to believe he does have character, until the day the truth comes out and she gets burned.

    No, she believes despite the evidence.

    Then she becomes jaded and cynical.

    Jaded and cynical is what usually happens with multi burn, not just one bad experience.

    This is just going to be a part of the typical girl’s experience. She can’t learn how to weed out the men of poor character without having a bad experience, any bad experience.

    Wait, you’re advocating the “taste a cad” method?

    Hell, I used to get bullied by guys in school who held alpha status. That was shitty, but I learned the truth right there that good-looking guys with status are rarely good people, and once I came of age it’s applied in my dating life ever since.

    Good for you, but you’re an exception that confirms the general rule not the other way around.

  • Mike C

    “Yeah, I know I let those 25 other guys before you screw me silly. I had a great time until I got burned. So I’m not like that anymore. I’ve changed. I’m a good girl now. I want to settle down, have 2.4 kids, be a SAHM, and I want you to pay for it all for me. Where’s my ring and my wedding?”
    .
    There is a guy I work with who epitomizes this entire discussion. My player alpha co-worker and I were just talking about his situation yesterday.
    .
    He is around 24-25 and fits the beta provider mold to a tee. He got married about a year ago, and was a virgin before he got married. He just announced he and the wife were expecting their first child. I joked with the player alpha guy I sure hope he runs a paternity test. I haven’t met his wife, but the alpha co-worker has, and is convinced she was a party girl in college that got ridden hard (he said she outdrank him at a gathering). I just saw a picture of her yesterday, and she is no doubt hot….at least a solid 8.
    .
    He has paid off her student loans, bought a big house with a mortgage. She currently does NOT work, and according to my alpha co-worker does not prepare dinner because she “doesn’t like the smell of cooking food”. He goes home and prepares his own meals. He tells the player co-worker “You have to keep the wife happy”. According to the player co-worker, she told him she has only been with like 1-2 guys.
    .
    I look at the entire situation, and what I know of it, and see a total train wreck, or at least a recipe for his misery. He is already looking for a new job because he doesn’t make enough money to “support the lifestyle” she expects.
    .
    If I thought he would be open to it, I’d sit him down, and try to put in at least a semblance of a spine with the way all this shit really works. When I see what happens in the real world I realize that only a small minority of guys really get it.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Blues:

    Which is fine if it happened once, twice tops, everything else? she’s riding the carousel, even if unwittingly.

    Agreed.

    Why is what she wants to believe despite reality men’s problem?

    Never said it was.

    No, she believes despite the evidence.

    That’s what I’m saying.

    Jaded and cynical is what usually happens with multi burn, not just one bad experience.

    Agreed.

    Wait, you’re advocating the “taste a cad” method?

    NO NO NO. I’m saying that girls are people who are going to make mistakes. Judging them for an eternity for something stupid they did once and learned from would be harsh.

  • SayWhaat

    Clarification:

    No, she believes despite the evidence.

    That’s what I’m saying.

    I’m saying that she will believe it and ignore the evidence until it becomes too overwhelming for her to ignore. That’s when the burn happens.

  • imnobody

    “Well once upon a time this was parents job tell their children about the truths of the market and once upon a time kids actually believe it, specially because there was a high price to pay.”

    It was a saner world, the old patriarchy, that lasted until the 70s/80s in my country. I had the privilege of living it when I was kid and, believe me, although there was a lot less of sex, it was a more happy world.

    All this was jettissoned during the sexual revolution, now they are the parents who listen to the kids…they want to be cool, they want to be young, they want to be their kid’s friends. Young people think they know it all and that their parents are only old farts.

  • detinennui32

    Mike C:

    Your coworker’s solid 8 reformed party girl wife is, uhh, well, let’s just say, not being completely forthcoming about her partner count.

    I have some personal experience with this too. I know a lot of women who weren’t honest about their partner counts.

    They want to be promiscuous. They just don’t want it to look that way.

  • Esau

    …”if women are attracted to these good looking dominant men who by-and-large lack character, then these women lack character themselves.”

    SayWhaat: “I disagree. … naive (freshman) women being deceived by cads. … she’s going to reallly really want to believe he’s a good guy as well. Unless extraordinary evidence demonstrates otherwise, she’s going to believe he does have character, until the day the truth comes out and she gets burned.”

    It seem to me that the girl being described here is flat-out demonstrating greed (“I won’t settle for less than the whole package”), vanity (“I’m the special princess to whom the whole package will be granted”), sloth (“I don’t have to do any work to check what’s really going on”) and willful ignorance (by not recognizing her own internal contradictions). I think it’s fair to call that “bad character” in the girl, don’t you?

    “She can’t learn how to weed out the men of poor character without having a bad experience, any bad experience.”

    Of course, if she were actually attracted to good character as a primary trait, then none of this, neither weeding nor bad experiences, would be necessary. Just sayin’.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    They want to be promiscuous. They just don’t want it to look that way.

    Also most promiscuous women sex hamsters are very effective. If you ask a promiscuous woman if she is a slut she very likely tell you NO, even if she slept with a different guy every day for as long as she started to have sex and this is justified with a million reasons “I never swallowed” “I only had sex with condoms”, “I never got totally naked”…most women have a “slut tell” they particularly don’t do to avoid feeling conscious about being promiscuous.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Some guys are so on point and sharp here lately, that I feel like I can take a nap

    This goes to imnoone and detinennuti specially, but overall, Im really happy with the level of awareness and seeing how the bitterness cedes to wisdom and practicality

    We should come together and make a book

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      Some guys are so on point and sharp here lately, that I feel like I can take a nap

      A short one, perhaps, but even the enlightened need a guru.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    We should come together and make a book

    Had you read the Short Brief life of Oscar Wao? I think that could be the best history of the Omega chump and their friends that won’t stop banging losers Alphas while crying over his shoulder. The story is told from the very Alpha POV of his reluctant friend Manny and has Oscar falling in love and being decent to many girls that keep giving him the “LJBF” speech. Although he never grows bitter in this and consider this women his great loves is interesting on the gender interaction. And I don’t mention it because the writer is Dominican too…I swear. :p

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    I didnt hear of it, I will track it

    This made me laugh “friends that won’t stop banging losers Alphas ”

    loser alphas? woooot

  • Stephenie Rowling

    loser alphas? woooot

    Heh Freudian slip…You know that for me promiscuous = loser (male and female).
    I know I’m weird but trust me if I ever tell you a guy sleeps a lot no matter if is only with scientists supermodels I still can’t shake the “eww” feeling of his dick entering so many places I don’t want him anywhere my vajay thank you very much. :)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie, I get it, and you are right in that abundance comes with a loss of quality, and with baggage

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    “I’m saying that she will believe it and ignore the evidence until it becomes too overwhelming for her to ignore. That’s when the burn happens.”

    And then she’ll settle with a nice sweet beta boy who has to work much harder to make it tingle, but is more likely to stick around. Ah, isn’t love grand?

  • Bb

    @Esau

    Sorry I didn’t address the confidence / kindness conflict directly. I was trying to reconcile the points made by detinennui and imnobody in previous posts

    Let’s move onto your argument— this statement, “Emotionally healthy women don’t want cads, douchebags or players. We want attractive, confident men, who treat us well”—is still a lie and/or impossible to achieve.

    Attraction:
    Physical requirements will vary among women. I’m merely specifying that one must feel sexual attraction for the other person in order for anything to happen.

    Regarding confidence you said:

    “Confidence” is acting with the expectation that other people will respond to you in the way that you want them to.”

    Your definition of confidence is much more narrow than mine. To me, confidence means a man who is not needy or dependent on other people for validation (male or female) comfortable in his own skin, and engaged in building a life for himself. A confident man may not even give a damn if people respond to him at all. (Isn’t that the classic definition of an alpha?). He’ll stand by his moral or ethical convictions even if he knows others will not respond in the way he wants them to.

    What you seem to be describing is more like charisma—confidence in one’s social interactions. And for charisma, maybe your double bind holds.

    In terms of kindness you said:

    “The crux of the problem is, that as viewed and judged by women it is nearly impossible for a man to satisfy both the “confident” and “treat us well” criteria at the same time. This is because, if a man treats a woman well, that will almost automatically make him seem un-confident in her eyes. It’s a female pathology, that women (mis-)interpret male kindness as weakness, and so as fatally unattractive.”

    This meme is repeated in the manosphere, and it may be true for a subset of women: those who are not emotionally healthy or personally mature.

    But for me, and other women like me (seeking sane, balanced relationships) this is not true. I don’t interpret kindness as weakness. If a guy treated me or others badly, I lost attraction for him no matter how attractive, charismatic or confident he seemed.

    I respond very positively to kindness. My husband is kind and generous to me and our child. I appreciate and treasure every gesture. I don’t see any contradiction between that kindness and the fact that he’s confident enough not to care what other people think of him.

    In terms of conflict you say:
    ” So even your revised statement is unconsciously deceptive, because it doesn’t recognize the asymmetry between appearing confident and treating someone well; the former is _vastly_ more important for attraction, and _must_ come first before the latter can be allowed. By putting them on equal footing in a list you hide this important truth, and lead men to be dashed on the rocks of pathology when they think “treat us well” is an attractive behavior in itself.”

    I didn’t mean to put “treat us well” on equal footing as the rest. It’s the last item on the list. If you like, you can think of it as:
    #1 attractive (to me)
    #2 confident (in himself)
    #3 treats me well

    Better?

    Finally, regarding pathology. If your thesis is correct, then women naturally and universally interpret male kindness as weakness. If it’s natural and universal, by definition it’s not a pathology. Neither is it berserk. Using emotionally charged words to depict natural behavior as aberrant is imprecise. One might as well describe women’s erogenous zones as being pathological. Or call men pathological because they require women to behave in a feminine manner.

    As to your last point, you ask: “why is it _functionally_ true that so many women actually _do_ chose to spend their time and favor with cads, douchebags and players?” Perhaps for the same reason that so many men choose to spend time with bitches and sluts. Neither are emotionally healthy.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bb,

    If you’re the exception to the rule, then by all means bless you and your husband and I hope you both have a long and happy life together.

    I happen to think that women eventually want all that kindness. I just happen to think that for the most part, they’re willing to sacrifice a bit of it for a hot alpha who makes them tingle now and again. Maybe that’s never been the case with you. If not, then kudos to you.

    I’ve just met too many women who have been willing to bed down with the occasional cad/player/jerk/etc… That’s not to say that they too don’t appreciate a nice sweet beta in the long run.

    I think, as I said before, that women go for the alphas in the attempt to change them, i.e. make them settle and commit, and then, seeing that most will not do that, move on to the beta male crowd. The betas make it into the game eventually. Just not as starters.

    That might be enough for some guys. That’s not what I want for myself. And I know that’s not what many other guys want.

  • Blues

    Finally, regarding pathology. If your thesis is correct, then women naturally and universally interpret male kindness as weakness. If it’s natural and universal, by definition it’s not a pathology. Neither is it berserk. Using emotionally charged words to depict natural behavior as aberrant is imprecise. One might as well describe women’s erogenous zones as being pathological. Or call men pathological because they require women to behave in a feminine manner.

    Kindness itself is not necessarily interpreted as weakness however submissiveness is. Now In the current enviroment/SMP where most men have been taught from childhood to be excessively courteous and complacent to women while women themselves have been taught they’re special, fabulous, unique and have been given a free pass in general how do you think those “complacent“, “kind” and “nice” men are seen by those women? what do you think those men look like in comparison to your average bad boy that doesn’t bend to women’s every wim?.

    Under that perspective, kindness

  • Blues

    *Under that pathological perspective kindness IS weakness

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Blues, you’re moving the goal post, and reframing kindness=submissiveness. Re “complacent”, “kind” and “nice”, I’d just refer you back to item #2: confidence.

  • Blues

    you’re moving the goal post, and reframing kindness=submissiveness.

    You’re making the kindness=submissiveness equivalence yourself, i said kindness isn’t weakness, submissiveness is weakness and that under current SMV kindness is perceived as weakness by women.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Blues, I beg your pardon.

    “Under current SMV kindness is perceived as weakness by women.”

    …for those women who are not emotionally healthy or personally mature. But not women who are seeking healthy, sane relationships. I covered that in my answer, yes?

  • Blues

    …for those women who are not emotionally healthy or personally mature. But not women who are seeking healthy, sane relationships.

    I wish that was the case but everything i’ve seen tells me otherwise. If a man shows kindness before alphaness he’s already making a bad start if he has sexual interest in a woman.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Jesus @Blues I agree, it does have to start with #1 attraction and #2 confidence for a woman to be interested. If a woman doesn’t have that, then she will not be enticed simply by #3 being treated well.

    But why show any lengthy kindness to a woman that hasn’t earned it or deserved it yet? You’re also qualifying her, and seeing if she’s worthy of your time and efforts. One doesn’t have to act like an asshole, or a bad boy to get this point across, just polite and firm.

  • Esau

    Bb, I will try to give you a considered reply, to your considered reply. Meanwhile, I’m curious if you ever read Susan’s post on sh*t testing

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/21/relationshipstrategies/why-we-shit-test/

    and of course the extensive (>500) comment stream that followed; there was also a shorter, linkful follow-up post

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/23/relationshipstrategies/mostly-male-writers-on-shit-testing/

    Of course, the idea is covered in detail through the “manosphere” or “game-o-sphere”; but Susan’s frank personal descriptions really gave this post a lot of force and credibility.

    One theme that you’ll see emerge prominently, is that male behavior that some (perhaps older) men would describe as simply being polite or chivalrous or generous or kind is very often judged by (mostly younger) women as being weak or supplicating. If you take what’s written there seriously, then I think you’ll have to dial back and admit that the “emotionally healthy” women you speak of who don’t do this are a very distinct minority, at least at a young age (say 15-25).

  • Blues

    I didn’t say one had to be an asshole, just show you’re not “help on demand

  • OffTheCuff

    But why show any lengthy kindness to a woman that hasn’t earned it or deserved it yet?

    Kindness is a beta’s IOI, and it’s naive, genuine, innocent.

    The fact that it’s “unearned”… he doesn’t get that. He thinks that if you have to earn kindness, then the giver is acting selfish, mercenary* and greedy in his dealings, and it’s not genuine. That’s not what church taught him. Mom and church said be nice even when people aren’t nice to you! Be nice to strangers, too! He doesn’t realize that the most social niceties that allow us to get through day to day life with other people, are precisely the wrong tools for meeting women. He has to, in a way, split into an entirely different person.

    You’re also qualifying her, and seeing if she’s worthy of your time and efforts.

    This is way over a young beta’s head. Think of a beta as a second grader learning to subtract two numbers. You’re asking him to differential calculus here. It also requires that mercenary mindset that he is just oblivious to.

    * probably the best word I can come up with to describe the SMP.

  • Blues

    @Esau, OffTheCuff: Very solid points to both, specially this part

    One theme that you’ll see emerge prominently, is that male behavior that some (perhaps older) men would describe as simply being polite or chivalrous or generous or kind is very often judged by (mostly younger) women as being weak or supplicating. If you take what’s written there seriously, then I think you’ll have to dial back and admit that the “emotionally healthy” women you speak of who don’t do this are a very distinct minority, at least at a young age (say 15-25).

    This is what i was trying to convey about most women’s POV to kindness.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Blues, I know you didn’t say that. ;) I was speaking in general terms, in case other people thought one needed to be an asshole.

    @Esau I never meant to imply that emotionally healthy women were the majority. I know they are not. You don’t have to convince me otherwise. But we do exist and if we say we want men who treat us well, and not cads, we aren’t lying, looking to shit test or asking for the impossible. We just know the real deal, and that kindness is worthwhile in a relationship.

    @OTC, I completely understand and am not unsympathetic to the process. I’m sure it’s completely jarring and unsettling. Bruce Banner into the Hulk?

  • Blues

    Bruce Banner into the Hulk?

    More like Ghandi into Freddy Krugger. No, seriously.

  • filrabat

    test

  • filrabat

    @OTC
    The fact that it’s “unearned”… he doesn’t get that. He thinks that if you have to earn kindness, then the giver is acting selfish, mercenary* and greedy in his dealings, and it’s not genuine. That’s not what church taught him. Mom and church said be nice even when people aren’t nice to you! Be nice to strangers, too! He doesn’t realize that the most social niceties that allow us to get through day to day life with other people, are precisely the wrong tools for meeting women. He has to, in a way, split into an entirely different person.
    Then at this point – the guy has to decide which is really more important, being nice or getting a piece of ass. Of course it depends on what you mean by “nice” “good”, “standing by your principles” (the latter is what it ultimately boils down to). It also depends implicitly on what it means to be romantically and/or sexually successful. Even so, that does not change the basic idea: which is more important, (a)standing by your principles or (b) succeeding with a particular woman and/or women in general?

    The last question is closely related to my blog post about manliness ( [url=filrabat.blogspot.com/2011/06/is-manliness-obsolete.html]Is “Manliness” Obsolete?[/url]).[1] At this point, the issue is “Can you be a real man yet choose pussy over your own principles?”. While peer pressure (esp from fellow males) will often say it’s more important to chase skirts, I consider this a contradiction – for how can you be a “real man”, yet be so weak as to throw your own integrity to the wind for the prospect of “bedding the babe”?

    [1] The Cliff’s Notes version: Manliness, as defined by popular culture, is inherently arbitrary and contradictory. The popular definition also feels like “spaghetti thrown on the wall” – just a bunch of initial reactions and impulses throw together willy-nilly, with no rhyme or reason about them, and just hoping when they stick together on the wall they form some kind of recognizable pattern.

  • filrabat

    @OTC

    The fact that it’s “unearned”… he doesn’t get that. He thinks that if you have to earn kindness, then the giver is acting selfish, mercenary* and greedy in his dealings, and it’s not genuine. That’s now what the church taught him. Mom and church said be nice even when people aren’t nice to you! Be nice to strangers, too! He doesn’t realize that most social niceties that allow us to get through day to day life with other people, are precisely the wrong tools for meeting women. He has to, in a way, split into an entirely different person

    Then at this point – the guy has to decide which is really more important, being nice or getting a piece of ass. Put another way, which is more undignified, sacrificing principle or sacrificing pussy. Which makes him less manly?

    Actually, I think the whole concept of manliness is ultimately meaningless, for it arbitrary, capricious, and ultimately contradicts itself. It has the feeling of spaghetti thrown against a wall — a bunch of initial impulses throw together willy-nilly, without any though of coherence, then thrown to the wall and hoping they’ll stick to form some recognizable pattern.

    How can you be a “real man” if you let your sex drive force you to shove aside your principles and beliefs?

  • White Cloud

    “How can you be a “real man” if you let your sex drive force you to shove aside your principles and beliefs?”

    People of similar principles and beliefs find each other. I don’t hang out at BDSM and swingers clubs because that scene does not jive with my values around sexuality. I gravitate towards scenes that I jive with instinctually, without even thinking or planning. You won’t find me joining a hunting or fishing club.

    Much of the problem I’m reading here from commenters has to do with people trying to fit into round holes when they are square pegs, instead of finding the square spaces to fit into.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    “A beta with inner game is the real deal.”

    A beta of any sort is 2nd rate. That’s the very definition of beta. A woman who consciously seeks out a man she identifies as beta is choosing a 2nd rate partner. I’m not sure what kind of man would be comfortable being labelled as 2nd rate, but I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t call him the “real deal.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A beta of any sort is 2nd rate. That’s the very definition of beta. A woman who consciously seeks out a man she identifies as beta is choosing a 2nd rate partner. I’m not sure what kind of man would be comfortable being labelled as 2nd rate, but I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t call him the “real deal.”

      A beta with developed inner game = alpha. Made, not natural.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    filrabat,

    “Then at this point – the guy has to decide which is really more important, being nice or getting a piece of ass. Put another way, which is more undignified, sacrificing principle or sacrificing pussy. Which makes him less manly?”

    A man doesn’t have to sacrifice principals in order to attain pussy. A real man has integrity. The injunctions and proscriptions fed to us by the church (whether the church of God or the church of feminism) have to be re-evaluated wholesale. It’s when we begin to repress our sexual natures (or any other aspect of our nature, btw) that this twisted Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde schism rears it’s ugly head. It’s okay for a man to be sexual, sensual, and intimate with whomever he chooses.

  • Jared

    A beta with inner game is the real deal.

    How can a man still be beta if he has inner game?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    the guy has to decide which is really more important, being nice or getting a piece of ass… which is more undignified, sacrificing principle or sacrificing pussy?

    How can you be a “real man” if you let your sex drive force you to shove aside your principles and beliefs?

    Ah, there’s the rub.

  • Tom

    @ Deti
    deti says: Agree with confident and assertive. In my experience, “nice” in the milquetoasty, overly compliant and supplicating way, repels women. If we’re talking about “nice” as in kind, polite and generally agreeable, then I agree.

    _____________________
    What else does nice mean? No man should be a door mat, that isnt what nice means.that mean spinless.
    Non judgemental means, you find a good woman of good character, she is not a virgin, and you dont hold that against her. ESPECIALLY if you too are not a virgin..That is hypocridical.
    Most women are attracted to a confident strong man who knows what he likes, knows who he is, can be assetive, and has empathy. He dosnt always have to have his way, and is also intrested in what SHE likes. Being mean (if you are not a mean person)being a prick (when you are not a prick) is a fake alpha. It is not what women want, not at least for a LTR. One nighters are a different story.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    A woman who has previous sexual partners is fine. A woman who has a few one-offs with some jerks and then expects a beta male in a relationship to “work for it” is not. At least not to me. The implicit message is the jerk has higher status because he gets the goods for free, while the beta boyfriend has to earn it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    OfftheCuff,

    “Jesus, I hope you’ve learned lesson #2 of SMV reality: nearly all women will try to talk you out of “exploring your sexuality” when you dare attempt breaking out of the beta-provider-exclusive mindset. Nearly all of the arguments boil down to “even though I had my fun, you can’t have yours”. They’re just asking you to place all women above your own needs. Breaking that *neediness* (as Mark said) is key. Heed only advice from successful men on this topic.”

    Thanks for the tip.

  • SayWhaat

    And then she’ll settle with a nice sweet beta boy who has to work much harder to make it tingle, but is more likely to stick around. Ah, isn’t love grand?

    No, she’ll learn to sift the men of bad character out from the men of good character in order to be in a happy, satisfying relationship. Much like dear Deti here discovered that hot women with attitudes are not worth the trouble, and found someone else who was less hot but easy to get along with. Or are you going to tell him that he “settled” as well?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    SayWhaat,

    Um, yea, I’m saying he settled. That’s his choice. And if he’s less sexually attracted to the woman he’s with now, then she settled as well.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    People of similar principles and beliefs find each other.

    Well I agree to a point but you are forgetting that some of sluts are deceivers as well. Is not that they grew up and matured after a few bad experiences with cads, but that after enjoying the cads and failing on getting one to commit they pick a man easier to manipulate because he doesn’t attract the same amount of women and use it for the second part of her “dream planned life”, and that is not fair to men that should be able to consent with all the info available as much as women should.
    I think there is also the part where this sluts dream life doesn’t include to really commit but to keep the guy around till they fulfill their quota on their dream and whether cheat on them when one of those cads is available for the exciting sex they really crave and/or divorce and leave with half the stuff the guy accumulated for the household he though he had and with the heart broken.
    This is not all women of course, but there is a pattern already established, every time a cheating wife opens a blog to share her exploit, every time a feminist writer divorces or bash her husband, every time you see statistics of cheating and/or divorce, every history of a divorced guy whose only sin was to be boring, worked to much, worked to little…and ended up losing kids, house and wife, everytime a guy is falsely accused of rape and ends up losing everything even if he is innocent, every Hugo that confess duping a man because the woman “feelings” were that duping him was okay…
    Really the info out there is scary for men and they are sharing it nowadays and the supposedly “good women” out there stay silent and/or support “all women’s choices, regardless of who suffers” when in they had showed the have the power to bring awareness to the things they actually care about “slutwalks is an example” do you think a man is going to believe any woman that showed the slightest amount of history with cads? Really only someone really desperate/naive/horny would.
    We are just living the consequences of women valuing freedom more than valuing equality or their word. If they though half of the world was going to just suck it up, they were totally wrong.
    I can’t personally blame any man that is very skeptic of women and needs a lot of proof of an individual woman to commit. I did exactly the same in a similar situation. Screen for good character, not settle for anything else, and not buy any words of “I was a different person” back them. People can lie to themselves and others, you can volunteer to wait for the best of a person with a past, if you want to, but its not mandatory for everyone else to do so, YMMV.

  • White Cloud

    Jesus,

    “A man doesn’t have to sacrifice principals in order to attain pussy. A real man has integrity. It’s when we begin to repress our sexual natures (or any other aspect of our nature, btw) that this twisted Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde schism rears it’s ugly head. It’s okay for a man to be sexual, sensual, and intimate with whomever he chooses.”

    That’s a very sex-positive feminist point of view. Or maybe sex-postive masculinist. Or maybe just sex-positive humanist.

    I agree, its ok for grown adults to be sexual, sensual and intimate with whomever they choose. Practicing safe sex methods will lower the health and financial risks that Susan flow-charted. Why is that even an issue?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Practicing safe sex methods will lower the health and financial risks that Susan flow-charted.

      1. Many people don’t practice safe sex methods.
      2. Safe sex does not eliminate the risks.

  • Jamie

    For God’s sake, WHAT DO YOU WOMEN WANT!!!????

    No idea. What do you have?

  • Abbot

    “Tom,

    A woman who has previous sexual partners is fine. A woman who has a few one-offs with some jerks and then expects a beta male in a relationship to “work for it” is not. At least not to me. The implicit message is the jerk has higher status because he gets the goods for free, while the beta boyfriend has to earn it.”
    .
    ——————
    That truth has been stated here over and over and over. Yet the propagandists keep on attempting to skirt around it and make it about virginity. How pathetic lame and ineffective

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Practicing safe sex methods will lower the health and financial risks that Susan flow-charted.

    If you teach a person that her feelings are to be followed what makes you think that if she feel right to have unprotected sex she will stop herself from doing so?
    Had you seen that 90% of porn is done without condoms? People don’t find safe sex arousing or fun or thrilling, porn with condoms doesn’t sell.
    The battle for safe sex is a hard one, you cannot say “don’t control your impulses to sleep with a complete stranger, but control your impulses to put a condom on” self control is like a muscle, the less you use it the less strong it is.
    So yeah the rising of STD’s should tell you that this message is not going through many people’s brains,YMMV.

  • imnobody

    @Susan

    I don’t consider “inner game” a part of game. I was talking about distinguishing between alphas (born or made by using inner game) and betas that are applying game. When you have inner game, you are an alpha. When women say “you are a poser”, they refer to your not showing your true self. An alpha that shows his true self is not a poser.

    In fact, “inner game” is a misleading expression. It is not that you have “game”, that you HAVE certain skill, it is that you ARE this way. You have changed your way of being. This takes years and lots of pain and the results are a mixed bag for women. Sure, you are more attractive for women, but you are more self-centered, less moral and less faithful. You are an alpha.

    Women will keep on trying to have a squared circle. They will get an alpha and try to betaize him (and then lose all attraction). They will get a beta and try to get him to have inner game (and be amazed that he has lost the good beta qualities: family oriented, faithful, selfless, etc.).

    Yes, on the savannah women needed to sniff out the survival genes and they sought high T men, including the prehistoric “bad boys.” That strategy isn’t sensible today. So what if a guy learned Game? We don’t actually need someone who is brave with a spear. The proxy of learned social dominance is more than adequate.

    If our instincts were sensible, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in. All the problems we have are because we are living in a technological society but our instincts are those of hunters-gatherers. (I am talking not about relationship problems but also ecological and social problems).

    Our instincts are maladaptive to our world. You can’t change them being sensible and saying “we don’t need them anymore”. They are wired and won’t change no matter how much you reason about them.

    If women’s instincts were sensible today, they wouldn’t look for an alpha or a beta with inner game. They would look for a Bill Gates-like nerd because he is the kind of man who can give more resources to the woman and the kids and can give the better genes (intelligence).

    But you can’t get the gina tingle to be sensible. It is programmed to go after the guys who were the best providers in the Stone Age (the ones with high testosterone, who could hunt better) and who tend to be now losers and thugs.

  • Blues

    No, she’ll learn to sift the men of bad character out from the men of good character in order to be in a happy, satisfying relationship. Much like dear Deti here discovered that hot women with attitudes are not worth the trouble, and found someone else who was less hot but easy to get along with. Or are you going to tell him that he “settled” as well?

    The way i see it “settling” as you frame it has different meaning from men to women

    The average man “settling” (presumably detinennui32′s case) = he found out that character counts and decided that trading looks for character was worth it

    The average woman “settling” = she can’t get the option she wants so she makes do with what she can get, usually pressured by her biological clock ticking.

    See the difference?

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @imnobody

    “Sure, you are more attractive for women, but you are more self-centered, less moral and less faithful. You are an alpha.”

    Self-centered, less moral and less faithful…are these requirements for an alpha male? Is it not possible for a man to become an alpha and still maintain his integrity and be moral and faithful?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is it not possible for a man to become an alpha and still maintain his integrity and be moral and faithful?

      Yes, it is possible, and there are many regular commenters here who prove it to be so.

  • Mike C

    Is it not possible for a man to become an alpha and still maintain his integrity and be moral and faithful?
    .
    I think it was Chris Rock that joked you are only as faithful as your options. That said, yes, I think it is possible.

  • White Cloud

    “So yeah the rising of STD’s should tell you that this message is not going through many people’s brains”

    Is there a rise? Traditionally the group drip-laden with STDs was always military men and prostitutes. Have STDs risen, decreased or remained the same within these 2 groups?

    Condoms are huge sellers so someone is obviously using them. I know fathers who buy their sons large supplies before sending them off to college. I know people who carry them in their pockets or purses just in case. They are even given out freely in some bars and night clubs.

    Aside from pre-arranging a betrothal for your children and quickly marrying them off before they hit 20, I don’t see how adult sexually can be contained other than through the education of its risks and the availability of contraceptives and prophylactics.

    Whether one is a “good” guy or girl who reaches their late 20s with a low number count or one is highly promiscuous with a number in the 3 digits, contraceptives and prophylactics need to be used. After all it takes just 1.

  • imnobody

    @Bb

    Is it not possible for a man to become an alpha and still maintain his integrity and be moral and faithful?

    In my experience, no. If a man goes from beta to alpha, this is not an easy or quick path. He has to practice with women. He has to learn with trial and error. This takes games for years and this takes lots of women. This means leaving a lot of “victims” in your wake…

    The tenets of game for single men are the contrary of moral behavior. You have to get a lot of women in order to achieve confidence in your game. You have to deceive women faking a personality you don’t have. You have to use the woman as a learning practice, even if she wants a LTR, pumping and dumping as crazy. You have to employ a woman as an useful object to you. Her feelings don’t matter to you. It is only about getting laid, polishing your skills and dumping women (this is pretty self-centered).

    You can’t do this if you are a man with integrity.

    I could put myself as an example. When I was young, I had a high integrity, because I had been raised in a very religious family. The result: I could not get a date while women were dating other men with less integrity than me.

    (There are scientific studies that men with the Dark Triad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad) do better in the sexual market )

    So I had two choices:

    1) Stop being a man with integrity and getting laid.
    2) Keeping on being a man with integrity and a virgin.

    Before the age of 27, I choose the second option. At the age of 27, my low-esteem was so low that I choose the first option. I was fed up with being a virgin. For example, my first girlfriend was a woman I didn’t love but it helped me to get over my low self-esteem with women. I used her. I slept with a number of women I didn’t love her only to get experience. I had a harem to get experience.

    Game (with exception of LTR game) is immoral but it is necessary to become an alpha.

    But women will keep on trying a wolf that behaves like a kitty. It’s wired in their genes to want the impossible. Their hamster would make them believe that this is possible.

  • imnobody

    But women will keep on trying TO GET a wolf that behaves like a kitty. I’m so sleepy.

  • SayWhaat

    For example, my first girlfriend was a woman I didn’t love but it helped me to get over my low self-esteem with women. I used her. I slept with a number of women I didn’t love her only to get experience.

    This is so terrible to hear. : (

  • SayWhaat

    @ Blues:

    You can’t redefine a term so that it applies to one sex in a way differently for another.

  • Blues

    @SayWhaat: I’m not, just stating how its employed by most carouselers/sluts/alpha chasers which is what Jesus Mahoney tried to convey.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @imnobody

    Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you feel now, that you’ve truly changed into an alpha, or are you still “faking” it?


    “You have to use the woman as a learning practice, even if she wants a LTR, pumping and dumping as crazy. You have to employ a woman as an useful object to you. Her feelings don’t matter to you. It is only about getting laid, polishing your skills and dumping women (this is pretty self-centered).”

    After your first few experiences sleeping with women, did the idea of pursuing a woman that you could develop feelings for, and move into an LTR, ever become an option? Or was the pursuit of more experience more important than getting into a relationship?

    What did you do if anyone in your harem developed feelings for you?

    I can see how your experience could really make for conflicting feelings, especially given your background. Do you ever see yourself falling in love and/or being in a committed relationship or have your game experiences with women completely ruined those chances?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bb,

    I know your question was posed to imnobody, but I have to say that merely learning what game was about and seeing how women in my age group usually are with manipulative alpha narcissists has precluded any chances of me falling in love with a woman or having a relationship. That was the big learning i got from breaking up with my fiancee and reading sites like this: I’m done with love.

  • imnobody

    This is so terrible to hear. : (

    Yes, it was awful for the girl. But I was 27, I was virgin, I was desperate. The girls I knew said: “He is so good. The one who gets him will be a lucky one … (But I don’t want to be this girl).

    I realized that having integrity does not pay with women when you are a beta. They pay lip service to it but you must become an alpha and this cannot be being good and nice.

    I don’t agree with people who say that Game is a self-improvement path. BS. A self-improvement path is to become selfless, to pray or meditate, doing good for your neighbour, control your passions and base instincts to become something better, “loving your neighbor like you love yourself”, taming your ego (all religions teach to do that). You can do that and you can be the beta all woman friendzone.

    I remember a time when women choose men of character. Now, it’s only about the gina tingle. And the gina tingle is immoral.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    imnobody,

    “I don’t agree with people who say that Game is a self-improvement path. BS. A self-improvement path is to become selfless, to pray or meditate, doing good for your neighbour, control your passions and base instincts to become something better”

    All the things you mention here are buda-esque, removing the self, approaching the emptiness, making yourself part of something bigger and putting yourself last, etc.

    But there´s more to self improvement than ego destruction. After the building is clean, what follows is to fill the void with skils, colors, positive assets, wealth, resources, etc.

    Thats were game can be used for self improvement.

    Destruction -> Creation.

  • SayWhaat

    I realized that having integrity does not pay with women when you are a beta. They pay lip service to it but you must become an alpha and this cannot be being good and nice.

    I truly believe that the men who say this are chasing after the wrong women and allowing those women to define their experiences.

  • imnobody

    Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you feel now, that you’ve truly changed into an alpha, or are you still “faking” it?

    No, I’m an alpha now. This has takes lots of years but I am there now. It has been worthwhile because I have a good self-esteem now. My first girlfriend (the one I used) used to tell me: “When I knew you, you were so sad and depressed…”. Now I am a normal guy and not a chronically sad one.

    But it has not been worthwile about the dating market: you change a set of problems for other set of problems. Now you can get relationships but you are not interested in them. You have become jaded.

    After your first few experiences sleeping with women, did the idea of pursuing a woman that you could develop feelings for, and move into an LTR, ever become an option? Or was the pursuit of more experience more important than getting into a relationship?

    At the beginning of my path, I was open to get relationships (I had one meaningful relationship) but I was not an alpha yet. My second girlfriend was the love of my life. We were going to get married. But we were together for years and I was not an alpha yet. I became betaized during the relationship (that is, my beta nature arose: you can’t fake it forever). She started to giving me crap, complaining and being bitchy all the time. She found another man and dumped me. This was the end of the world for me because I loved her so much. It took me several years to recover.

    Then I resumed my learning of Game and alpha bevahior. The more women you know, the least you want a relationship. Women became a commodity. If someone leaves, someone will arrive. So being in a LTR was becoming less and less of an option. And knowing how women are was a big disappointment. And you are as faithful as your options.

    What did you do if anyone in your harem developed feelings for you?

    Well, I didn’t have to do anything. The situation resolved itself very easily. They tried to make me commit but, when they realized that they couldn’t, they left. I am friends with several of them.

    I can see how your experience could really make for conflicting feelings, especially given your background. Do you ever see yourself falling in love and/or being in a committed relationship or have your game experiences with women completely ruined those chances?

    Not now. I am jaded. Someone said that love is the illusion that a woman is different of another woman. It is very difficult when you have known a lot of women and you see the pettiness, the materialism of their choices, the shit tests, the shallowness.

    I don’t have a harem anymore. Really, I have lost the illusion of going after women even for sex. It is not worth all the crap you have to endure. And when you have had lots of sex, sex is not a big deal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @imnobody
      I thought you had a fiancee? I seem to recall that you were thinking of marrying…am I wrong? You talked about how being with the same woman every night is boring, like having the same chicken dish for dinner. But you said that your gf was a very good woman, and that you were willing to commit to make her happy.

  • imnobody

    I truly believe that the men who say this are chasing after the wrong women and allowing those women to define their experiences.

    Yes, women always say that. It is always that you are after the “wrong ones”. I have been with all kinds of women and believe me: NAWALT is a beautiful lie.

    There are exceptions: there are men that don’t like young women and prefer grannies. But they are exceptions. The same with women.

    I have had not gone after party girls. Ever. They don’t interest me. My type is more the traditional girl, the career girl, the girl with a big heart, the romantic girl. Women I know in the academy and in church. I don’t go to bars: I haven’d drank booze in my life. I haven’ used drugs and don’t smoke. I hate clubs and discos.

  • imnobody

    Well, I have to go. 2 a.m in Europe. I am so sleepy…

  • Blues

    I truly believe that the men who say this are chasing after the wrong women and allowing those women to define their experiences.

    I agree with this, however i can also agree with this

    I remember a time when women choose men of character. Now, it’s only about the gina tingle. And the gina tingle is immoral.

    That’s the real problem, finding a woman that will take into account alpha behavior as well as the man’s character (without being forced by her biological clock), they’re so rare it’s almost like hunting winged unicorns.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @imnobody, good night. Thank you for sharing your story. I can truly see why your experiences have left you jaded. I wish it could have been different for you.

    @Jesus given imnobody’s experiences, I can see why one would give up. I’m sorry to see it, but it makes sense.

  • Esau

    I realized that having integrity does not pay with women when you are a beta. They pay lip service to it but you must become an alpha and this cannot be being good and nice.

    SayWhaat: “I truly believe that the men who say this are chasing after the wrong women and allowing those women to define their experiences.

    SayWhaat, I would say that your statement is pretty much axiomatically true, and hence doesn’t really have that much content. The more pivotal questions are, (1) Are there any women who are not “the wrong women”? (2) If so, then are there enough of them to go around? (3) If so, then where can they be found and how can they be identified? Unless the answers are “yes”, “yes” and “go here and look for this, specifically” then your comment, while true, is essentially irrelevant.

    It sounds kind of jokey, but real answers would actually be valuable. However, if you try to fill in the answers, then don’t be surprised if you get some push-back from any men who choose to reply, about what is and is not true in the real world. (NB: as should be clear, answers like “They’re all around you” and “It’s obvious who they are”, are complete non-starters.)

  • White Cloud

    “And the gina tingle is immoral.”

    Not any more immoral than the hard-on.

  • SayWhaat

    Esau, forgive me if you find my comments irrelevant. I’ve been very busy with a new job that leaves me quite exhausted, and I find that I’d like to spend most of my free time doing other fulfilling things instead of leaving egregiously verbose comments that no one bothers to read when a succinct one will carry the point across just as well. I’ve been consciously holding back on debate here because I just don’t have the time and/or patience to continue to argue about the same principles with newcomers (I don’t know how Susan does it).

    That being said…

    1) Yes.
    2) Today, probably not.
    3) Though social context matters, I don’t think you can pinpoint any specific habitat for the “right” women. Sluts can be found in libraries, good girls can be found in clubs, etc. Finding the right woman is much the same as the hunt for a good man (of which I am increasingly concerned that few of either sex exist anymore). Where would you find a good man? Today you might find him keeping company with men of exceptionally poor character, despite the fact that he does not share their values. Or, you might find him keeping company with a stellar crowd of high-SMV people. The problem is just as difficult for finding a good woman. Good things are hard to find.

    But I still don’t think it’s impossible. Susan, Aldonza, Stephanie, and Hope are all good women, and their presence here is enough to prove that good women do exist. Stephenie was a good woman who wasn’t snapped up until her mid- to late twenties, and Aldonza and Hope also struggled to find good men. Aldonza, Stephenie, and Hope all found love online, which means they had to resort to different tactics other than waiting to be approached by men in real life. The fact that they weren’t snapped up quickly goes to show that not that many men weren’t looking for them in the first place (ladies, I’m just going by what I remember from what you’ve all shared here, please correct me if you feel like I’m mistaken).

    So yes, good women do exist. In our backwards SMP, I suppose it would behoove women to display themselves as suitable LTR prospects and for men to screen out those who don’t. Unfortunately, this is wishful thinking, for the time being at least.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Aside from pre-arranging a betrothal for your children and quickly marrying them off before they hit 20, I don’t see how adult sexually can be contained other than through the education of its risks and the availability of contraceptives and prophylactics.
    Whether one is a “good” guy or girl who reaches their late 20s with a low number count or one is highly promiscuous with a number in the 3 digits, contraceptives and prophylactics need to be used. After all it takes just 1.

    I’m not advocating for lack of education but the education is problematic and has conflicting messages. The idea should be to educate in sexual choices and its consequences as soon as possible, not tell them that their bodies are their masters and sex is their right. That is the problem right there. You cannot tell them that sex with a stranger is a good idea because they feel is right with a little logic you should know that sex with a complete stranger is always a bad idea telling them that being horny doesn’t mean they have to have sex right there is a good start into the path of making logical choices in spite of their ‘”feelings”.
    But you know the high amount of people that die out of celibacy is so high obvious lack of sex means instant death and that is why no one can’t just think before fuck, they will drop death right there, poor people. /sarcasm.

    I think it was Chris Rock that joked you are only as faithful as your options. That said, yes, I think it is possible.

    I will say the faithful man with options is the one that has an specific reason (moral, logical…) to not pursue sex with every woman available.
    My father is an Alpha by blood descending from a long line of Alpha (all of them cheaters and I clarify the no divorce is my mother’s side, it seems that whatever protection we got was from her XX so men are 50/50 on that that side of the family while the women are all faithful and good so far) but the abandonment he suffered from his father when he traded his mom for fresh punani and his strong catholic faith (he was an altar boy when young and now is a deacon) turned him into the kind of man that my mother will choose as a husband, and 34 years later in a country were cheating by men is the norm he never strayed, he had to take drastic measures to achieve this like stopping being friends with men that wanted him to be their wing man when they were cheating themselves, but for him his vows were the law and my mother, her first and only man, also kept her vows like him and also stopped seeing some friends that started to divorce and to mock her for “enduring one man for so long”.
    My baby brother grew up to be very attractive but like me he has a natural dislike for sluts, (and I know this because we used to work in the same building and plenty of women threw themselves at him, including married ones, the amount of discuss he had for this women was so huge that he couldn’t even touch them, let alone have sex with them) he married at 24 to a bit older woman that showed good character so he was a bit like me in that aspect.
    Of course I have a good for nothing second brother that took over the dark side of the family gene pool and is on kid number 7 with several exes that he used to beat, steal money and cheat on but of course he never lost the attention of sluts for that and in fact the way he moved on was when women offered him things like money or a car to leave his girlfriends and kids for them.

    So the purpose of all this is that if being faithful and have certain standards were easy we wouldn’t want this amount of issues. So there has to be a choice, you whether have an easy life and go with the flow or have a good life, make certain choices and commit to it forever, no matter what.
    This kind of strength was though and enforced by society as the standard since birth for millenia before the sexual revolution, after that sex became a right for everyone horny instead of a privileged for people that achieved certain clear marks of maturity and adulthood.
    So nowadays is hard to find a man that is both hugely attractive and faithful because why would he stop? Alphas get forgiven by the women the target all the time so why would he just want something different where everything is given to them in a silver plate?
    Of course the female slut has the same situation, till the silver plate disappears when they reach certain age. That is the main difference among the genders but it doesn’t men that both genders don’t pay, they both do at different time. Like imnobody and Mike’s friend is experienced lack of hope in love and relationships and a life dedicated to seeking and obtaining pleasure of every available warm body is soul consuming. Most people will tell you that no matter how much you love sugar you cannot have it every day in every meal right? Because the body is not designed to metabolize it that fast or/and that often and for so long. Sex considered different is lie of sex revolution.

    Aldonza, Stephenie, and Hope all found love online, which means they had to resort to different tactics other than waiting to be approached by men in real life. The fact that they weren’t snapped up quickly goes to show that not that many men weren’t looking for them in the first place (ladies, I’m just going by what I remember from what you’ve all shared here, please correct me if you feel like I’m mistaken).

    You are right about me at least, once I realized that the men that approached me were not the type of men that could commit (something that I learned pretty fast) I realized that I had to learn to be brave, put myself out there and make the first move at my type (the shy type), so I agree that people looking for relationships need to be twice at sharp.

    But also, and I know this is controversial, I think is a mistake for “good girls” to associate themselves with sluts. Given the conditions men are lumped them all together and this huge amount of “slut is a good word so as a woman you shouldn’t try to differentiate from the sluts” is damaging the prospects, because from men’s perspective a girl that looks like a slut, talks like a slut, and hangs around sluts…can’t be so good herself.
    And even if she is going home alone every night, a guy would not notice that and is very unlikely to believe her if she says so, many sluts say the same to the nice guy they plan to snag while banging the Alpha on the side. Being good has become a new shame and this will only make things worse. I know is hard to be the virgin of the group (been there, done that) but the that is part why slut shaming is needed, like Susan recommends, YMMV.

  • SayWhaat

    I think is a mistake for “good girls” to associate themselves with sluts.

    I know, and I agree, but it’s problematic to navigate this political territory. Also, I’ve learned a few things from promiscuous people (how to be more flirtatious is one), and my formerly-promiscuous, bi-sexual friend knows way more about the male psyche than I do, which can be very helpful to me at times.

  • White Cloud

    “This kind of strength was though and enforced by society as the standard since birth for millenia before the sexual revolution”

    Well, for women anyway. Most ancient and medieval cultures had a good deal of polygyny going on, and not just amongst the royals. Yes, there were some pockets of polyandrous sub-cultures here and there, and there still are, but for the most part it was wives who were expected to be 100% monogamous.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I know, and I agree, but it’s problematic to navigate this political territory. Also, I’ve learned a few things from promiscuous people (how to be more flirtatious is one), and my formerly-promiscuous, bi-sexual friend knows way more about the male psyche than I do, which can be very helpful to me at times.

    Hey I learned a lot from sluts too, and I used to have a lot of friends with them but those were the times before cheating women decided to tell their conquest in the net, or women decided to tell everyone that cuckoldry is fine and good and you know the rest… The over-sharing of information in the secret lives of everyone has had an effect that we can’t ignore at this point.

    Well, for women anyway. Most ancient and medieval cultures had a good deal of polygyny going on, and not just amongst the royals. Yes, there were some pockets of polyandrous sub-cultures here and there, and there still are, but for the most part it was wives who were expected to be 100% monogamous.

    Well there is a tricky business there first women can get pregnant, thus allowing your wife to bang every dude she wants means that you will end up supporting kids that are not yours so makes sense to make sure she is not having any society support for that.
    Second you need to remember that if technically a man was not bound to faithfulness (and I most say this really depends on the country and culture all my Muslim girlfriends married virgin men and many cultures both were expected to be faithful) the way the laws worked made it almost impossible. Because virgin girls were property of their fathers if he was married already and couldn’t support another wife, having sex with a virgin meant a huge fine or even death. And having sex with a married woman also always meant death. So men still had to obey the patriarchy impositions of sex unless they could get away with it in extraordinary cases, like having a lot of money to support a mistress, secondary wives or with prostitutes. And we all know stories of women of power in the past that had plenty of lovers and got away with cheating so I will go on a limb and say that class was a more important correlator of infidelity tolerance than gender, YMMV.

  • White Cloud

    So men still had to obey the patriarchy impositions of sex unless they could get away with it in extraordinary cases, like having a lot of money to support a mistress, secondary wives or with prostitutes

    It doesn’t take much money. Even now there are poor men with more than one wife and who visit prostitutes.

  • ExNewYorker

    @White Cloud,
    You do know that genetic studies have found that the percentage of women who have reproduced is twice that of the men who have?
    .
    Again, you’re falling for the apex fallacy. Most men don’t have the options you mention. Only the top % of men had that type of options…the group of men who women seem to notice. Your average male, across all human history, has been what he has always been, expendable…and unnoticed…

  • Stephenie Rowling

    It doesn’t take much money. Even now there are poor men with more than one wife and who visit prostitutes.

    I’m talking before sex revolution. Nowadays an attractive guy can find a woman to have sex with for free with just visiting a bar, but then still the average guy is not that attractive so in the past money was what make the difference between men with tons of access to women when nowadays is attractiveness.

  • ExNewYorker

    The posts by detinennui32 and Esau have been some of the most clear and direct about the state of the modern beta male. Through a combination of omissions, half-truths, and outright lies, your average beta male has been deceived, by all corners of society. Is it surprising that, at learning the bitter truth, they might react with anger, even bitterness? It’s like the end of “Claudius, The God”, where the protagonist realizes that Rome does indeed only want bread and circuses. Even on a board as close to the truth as this one, there’s still the first reaction of short changing the beta male experience: women want decent guys, for example, but omitting the fact that the apex fallacy is at full tilt…they want decent guys who they find attractive. Or wondering why guys “go after the wrong women”, again without mentioning it’s the guys who they find attractive mostly. Badger said it well when he suggested adding that tag (guys they find attractive) to what women say…
    .
    Your average beta male has very few options. If he’s lucky (and they call it getting lucky for a reason), he might snag a girlfriend, but eventually, the beta-ness will result in said girlfriend trading up, if she hasn’t already LJBF’d him. And if he happens to take the red pill and learn to project the confidence of the cads, more often than not he’ll go all the way to cad-dom and fall to the darkside. After all, it’s better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven…
    .
    It’s an odd situation for those of us, like detinennui32, who are happily married. We learned enough game to allow us to have options when choosing the women we marry. But it wasn’t an easy process…several years of semi-playerhood revealed very few women who fell into that category of marriageable women. Heck, if we had to start over again, it be a longshot that we’d decide to marry again. And with two younger siblings who have all but given up on the idea of marriage, it’s hard to refute their charge: “yeah, but you found one of the few marriageable women”. Like Dalrock, I support marriage, but my advice to younger men is to damn well make sure they’re going in with their eyes open. And I can’t fault them if they decide their eyes show them it’s not a choice worth the risk…
    .
    The sad part is we all know what the endgame is. There are several communities that have been the canary in the mine. At this point, there really is very little to be done about the larger culture. A man or woman really can only mitigate against the worst, and try to make the best informed choices possible.
    .
    And my advice for you average guy? Take your date to watch “Blue Valentine”. If her first reaction is a strong negative toward the female protagonist, you may have a keeper… :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Take your date to watch “Blue Valentine”. If her first reaction is a strong negative toward the female protagonist, you may have a keeper… :-)

      I could not believe the Planned Parenthood scene where she reveals her partner count. But yeah, rawdogging it with that smarmy player and getting tingly when she runs into him was terrible. In all fairness, the Ryan Gosling character was no prize.

  • Mike C

    Ex New Yorker +1,000,000

    Even on a board as close to the truth as this one, there’s still the first reaction of short changing the beta male experience: women want decent guys, for example, but omitting the fact that the apex fallacy is at full tilt…they want decent guys who they find attractive. Or wondering why guys “go after the wrong women”, again without mentioning it’s the guys who they find attractive mostly. Badger said it well when he suggested adding that tag (guys they find attractive) to what women say…
    .
    Your average beta male has very few options. If he’s lucky (and they call it getting lucky for a reason), he might snag a girlfriend, but eventually, the beta-ness will result in said girlfriend trading up, if she hasn’t already LJBF’d him.

    Here’s the million dollar problem, and this is something I’ve been pondering and it is a combination of reading the same stuff over and over from young women, some comments by Brendan, and a few other things.

    The average woman….a 5 or 6 is at least somewhat attractive to the average guy of 5 or 6, and at the end of the day he would pair up with her, be content, and call it a day. The average woman is also attractive enough for the 7-9 guy to pump and dump if he feels like slumming it. I see it constantly with my player co-worker who’ll drop down just to get something new and different.
    .
    However, in contrast, the average guy of 5-6 isn’t the least bit attractive to the average woman. Worse yet, the average woman thinks she is really a 7-8 so he natural counterpart is totally off her radar. This in a nutshell explains the entire “where are all the good men”. The question isn’t really about good men, it is about men they find attractive and there simply are not enough 8-9 guys for all the 5-6 women who want them.
    .
    Like you guys (Ex-New Yorker and detiennui32) I think I was very lucky to find someone who is a good woman who is probably my natural counterpart in SMV value. Truthfully, I had not met her, or someone like her, I’d probably be single and playing the field. In some sense, I think the SMV for guys is a microcosm of what is happening at the economic level in that you are seeing an extreme division between the HAVES who really have a ton and the HAVE-NOTs who are poor.
    .
    I think long ago, women were socialized to go for the average beta provider. I think back to reading Warren Buffett’s biography and he essentially courted his future wife’s parents to win her. He convinced the parents of his potential. Ironically, she (Susie Buffett) left him in later life because she was bored (and he was a billionaire at that point) so even the super-rich beta can lose.
    .
    Ultimately, pragmatically, a guy just has to prioritize doing what he can to make himself more attractive. I’d tell a teenage guy to put the books down for an hour or 2, and make sure he is hitting the gym and weights multiple times a week. And that is pretty screwed up in a sense, but that is where we are at. If you aren’t lifting weights and working out, you are behind the competition. And you simply have to learn the basics of confidence, charm, etc. Female nature isn’t going to change, and I think the pendulum of empowerment and all the associated nonsense has to swing much further before it swings the other way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The average woman….a 5 or 6 is at least somewhat attractive to the average guy of 5 or 6, and at the end of the day he would pair up with her, be content, and call it a day. The average woman is also attractive enough for the 7-9 guy to pump and dump if he feels like slumming it. I see it constantly with my player co-worker who’ll drop down just to get something new and different.
      .
      However, in contrast, the average guy of 5-6 isn’t the least bit attractive to the average woman. Worse yet, the average woman thinks she is really a 7-8 so he natural counterpart is totally off her radar. This in a nutshell explains the entire “where are all the good men”. The question isn’t really about good men, it is about men they find attractive and there simply are not enough 8-9 guys for all the 5-6 women who want them.

      Another great summary of the contemporary, hypergamy-riddled SMP.

  • imnobody

    “And the gina tingle is immoral.” Not any more immoral than the hard-on.

    Completely agree. It is not that men are better than women. It is that our base instincts are immoral and are not adaptive to the modern world. If they were, women would marry betas and men would marry nice women even if they are fat and ugly.

    But the truth about the hard-on is widely known. Only people in the manosphere know the truth about the gina tingle. Many people out there still think about women as if they only wanted nice guys and to be loved.

    I thought you had a fiancee?

    Yes, she was not attractive and she was not intelligent. She was kind of boring too. But I learned to be with her because she was so loyal and affectionate to me. Since I have some assets, I didn’t wanted to risk divorce so I loved the fact she was so loyal. She was religious and raised in a traditional family. She was a girl who loved children and wanted to be mother. So I thought: since I don’t think I am going to fall in love again, I can marry this girl and have a family. I have affection for her, no doubt about that. But I didn’t love her the way I loved my second girlfriend. I gave up looking for other women, not at first, but afterwards (I remember you gave me this advice, Susan). So I ended up being faithful to her. After all, I didn’t value sex as much as before so it was not a big sacrifice.

    Well, one weekend I went out of the city and a friend of mine saw her kissing another guy in a public building. So much for traditional, church girls.

    Anyway, if this had happened years before, it would have been a massive disappointment for me. But, since I knew the core concepts of game, I only shrugged my shoulders and moved on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @imnobody

      Well, one weekend I went out of the city and a friend of mine saw her kissing another guy in a public building. So much for traditional, church girls.

      I just want you to know that I am truly horrified by this report. She had a good thing going, she was obviously punching above her weight, and she cheated? It’s so damned depressing, it really does make me think we are doomed.

  • imnobody

    Worse yet, the average woman thinks she is really a 7-8 so he natural counterpart is totally off her radar.

    Yes, because she gets laid with 7-8 so she thinks she is in the same league than them. Women don’t know that men have two standards (one for sex, one for commitment) because women only have one standard.

    I think long ago, women were socialized to go for the average beta provider.

    (And men were socialized not to expect sex without commitment).

    This is the problem, in a nutshell. Long ago, we were socialized to curb our base instincts so we could have a functioning society and not to devolve slowly to the mayhem or chaos of the African savannah.

    The pill and the 60s saw this socialization as repression and oppression. The important thing was to be faithful to oneself, to follow one’s bliss. In other words, to follow the instincts. Since then, the instincts run wild and we are in a mess.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    We may very well be doomed. Our whole modern culture (dominated by a very “democratic” media seeking to pander to the greatest number of people through the lowest common denominator) is about stirring and celebrating the most base desires of people. And I think that this is why I’ve given up on love. If I know a woman has given into this base urge with some narcissistic alpha or other, why invest myself in her? She just doesn’t seem to be worth it.

    You can say that I’ve become just as bad by seeking to move with the times. You might be right, too. But going against the flow is, as I said before, a lot like trying to follow the rules of 8 ball at a 9 ball tournament. Absurd.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      Our whole modern culture (dominated by a very “democratic” media seeking to pander to the greatest number of people through the lowest common denominator) is about stirring and celebrating the most base desires of people. And I think that this is why I’ve given up on love.

      This is very understandable, but I believe you should at least keep yourself open to the possibility of love. There are good people, though perhaps fewer than there should be. I do know quite a few young women who are loyal and devoted girlfriends. Some of them have already proved their faithfulness by rejecting opportunities to prioritize short-term desires over long-term commitment. I also know many married women who fit this description. This is perhaps not typical of the population, which makes me think it has to be the circles I run in. I think that there is a tendency for men to swallow the red pill, give up on women, and proceed to surround themselves with bad women, which of course only confirms their beliefs. But they’ve lost something too.

  • imnobody

    @Susan

    Yes, I don’t understand it very well either. I don’t want to be smug, but I was a much better catch that the guy she cheated me on. She was a 6 at best and was very small (like a little girl) and somewhat chubby.

    I am tall, slim, green eyes and fair skin (very rare in her country), a stranger (strangers from rich countries are considered more attractive than locals in her country). I was a man with a very high job in the government, with a excellent resume, culture and sense of humor (I love to make jokes and to be funny in real life). I treated her well.

    But she cheated on me with a student with no money and who seemed non-alpha. Go figure.

    As the song says: “No hay que entenderlas, sólo amarlas”. “You shouldn’t understand women, just love them”

    Anyway, it is not a big deal. Game helps you to understand that these things are not personal and that female monogamy is only a myth. Men are polygamous, women are serial monogamists.

    Now I am in love with a blondie with blue eyes. A solid 9. It is my 5-year-old niece.

  • imnobody

    @Susan

    By the way, Susan. Thank you for caring

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    I think it’s safe to say we’re doomed. People are trained early on from the MSM to indulge their basest impulses. As you said, women have their dual mating strategy. If you’re alpha, you’re fine in the short term. If you’re beta, you can find a partner, but if you open your heart to her, you run the risk of her getting an itch she just needs to scratch. You can try to be the best of everything, but why bother running yourself ragged trying to keep someone faithful?

    The best bet is to just be the best “you” that you can be and not invest too much into any one woman. It’s not a Disney ending, but life isn’t a Disney movie.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That happens to me a lot on here. I’ll post once, come back, can’t find it, post again, and end up with 2 similar posts. Anyway….

  • jamie

    @imnobody

    Well, one weekend I went out of the city and a friend of mine saw her kissing another guy in a public building. So much for traditional, church girls.

    Maybe she found a guy who actually loved her…

    …instead of faking it for whatever reason. I’m not saying this was all your fault, but you’ve already admitted to being a cad and a player…and that you didn’t really love the girl anyway…I think a sensible girl with traditional values would be wise to dump you.

  • imnobody

    @jamie

    Well, if she was a sensible girl with traditional values, she could have dumped me before kissing another guy. At least, this is how “traditional values” are defined in my country. In your country, do “traditional values” and “sensible” include cheating?

    By the way, I didn’t fake anything (you can read my posts in HUS where I talk about her, several months ago). You don’t know all the story and the things I did for her.

    I don’t blame her. Maybe it was for the best and I wish her the best. Love is complicated and I want her to be happy. They have told me that she is drinking more than ever. This worries me, but it’s her life.

    Anyway, I don’t want to bore HUS reader more with the story. If I told it, it’s only because Susan asked me.

  • jamie

    @imnobody

    I would never claim that cheating is somehow virtuous in a certain situation, but if I found out that the guy I was seriously dating only had lukewarm feelings for me, thought I was unattractive and dumb and nothing special and only kept me around because I was unlikely to cheat, I would start feeling pretty vengeful. I would try to make you feel as shitty as you made me feel. Anyway, that’s me. I can’t speak for a girl I’ve never met.

  • Blues

    I would never claim that cheating is somehow virtuous in a certain situation, but if I found out that the guy I was seriously dating only had lukewarm feelings for me, thought I was unattractive and dumb and nothing special and only kept me around because I was unlikely to cheat, I would start feeling pretty vengeful. I would try to make you feel as shitty as you made me feel. Anyway, that’s me. I can’t speak for a girl I’ve never met.

    So, you’re saying you’d cheat or break up? i can’t tell, also how do you know what imnobody’s GF was thinking or even knew or thought she knew at that point?

  • Blues

    So, you’re saying you’d cheat or break up? i can’t tell, also how do you know what imnobody’s GF was thinking or even knew or thought she knew at that point?

    Fixed, i skipped the last sentence of your post.

  • imnobody

    @jamie

    It seems to me, Jamie, that you are projecting your own experiences and prejudices onto this story. You ASSUME so many things that I have NOT said. Like
    the following ones.

    I didn’t told her that she was unattractive. Firstly, because I can’t tell this to a woman, let alone to my girlfriend: I am not a monster. I know about the conflicting relationship that women have with her body and I know that you can’t criticize their body without giving a massive blow to their self-esteem. I NEVER criticize a woman for her body (I am not Brad Pitt either).

    Secondly, because she was attractive for me, for two reasons: 1) I have a thing about short women 2) Since I had affection for her, I saw her beautiful.

    When I wrote that she was unattractive, it is only to explain that she was not attractive FOR THE AVERAGE MAN. This is only to tell that it is not possible that she has cheated on me because she was very hot and I was having somebody out of my league.

    She is not intelligent but I haven’t said is dumb (there’s a difference). Anyway, I never told her that she was unintelligent. I praised regularly because this is what you do when you are in a relationship. I told her she was very good, that she was fantastic with her niece, that she was adorable, that she was affectionate, that she will be a terrific mother. All of this was sincere.

    She had a problem with drinking and more than once, she called me at 1 am or 2 am because their “drink mates” (what’s the word in English?) had abandoned me and she had not any means to go back home (she had no car and very few money). So I went out from the bed and I drove 45 minutes to the bar where she was, I picked her up, I drove back home and let her sleep at my home so their parents didn’t see she was drunk. (I am a teetotaler).

    I didn’t make her feel shitty. EVER. She embarassed me several times, as when she came drunk to a business meeting (she was uninvited and I told her not to come but her friend had told her that I was cheating on her so he came and started drinking and talking about crap in a middle of a reunion about e-government).

    Why the way, she is not vengeful with me. We remain good friends.

    Jamie, before making assumptions that do not correspond with reality, it is better to ask.

  • imnobody

    Bad personal pronouns. Sorry

    their “drink mates” (what’s the word in English?) had abandoned HER

    I was cheating on her so SHE came and started drinking

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @jamie
    Do you understand that two wrongs don’t make one right, right? If you were with a man that never cheated on you and never mistreated you, even if you found out he didn’t though you were miss universe the thing a decent girl would do is to tell them that you really want more than that and break up to look for that more. Revenge is not decent.
    And I tell you this as someone that actually believes in revenge, but only in extreme cases and proportionally speaking (Nemesis concept), not “a man was not crazy about me…I most cheat!”
    And what is it with this obsession about sex in the first world women? “I’m unhappy? sex will help me, I’m bored: sex will help me, my husband is not taking out the trash often enough? sex with another man will make me feel better…” Really this “sex will solve all my problems” attitude is again very strange to me.

  • imnobody

    Anyway, everybody has to assume his responsibilities and I was wrong to have another women besides her (although she knew it from the time he met me: she asked me and I told her the truth). I got what I deserved. This is why I don’t blame her.

  • jamie

    @imnobody

    She is not intelligent but I haven’t said is dumb (there’s a difference). Anyway, I never told her that she was unintelligent. I praised regularly because this is what you do when you are in a relationship.

    So you lied to her because “that’s what you do in a relationship”?

    You’re right though, I don’t know anything about your relationship. And perhaps I am projecting. My ex dated me against his type, he usually went for slender skinny girls, and I’m more curvy and muscular, anyway, it bothered me to no end even though he never actually called me fat, I always had the impression that he’d rather be dating someone prettier, but considered me a safe bet, being the quiet bookish type. He didn’t seem to think this was a good reason to break up, so I had to wait around for him to screw up big time which, fortunately, didn’t take too long. (why do alcoholics love teetotalers? I’ll never figure out how I’ve managed to attract so many alcoholics in my lifetime.)

    @Stephanie

    I don’t cheat, nor to I advocate cheating. What I said was, “I’d make you feel as shitty as you made me feel.” How I accomplish this depends entirely on the situation, though typically it involves waiting until the ex in question attempts some sort of teary reconciliation to which I’d give a cold, crushing reply.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    Maybe this is my own projection, but if you’re a teetotaler in this day and age, I’m assuming you have alcoholism problems in your family… which could be why you attract that. I know a lot of “caretakers….”

  • imnobody

    So you lied to her because “that’s what you do in a relationship”?

    Jamie, I never lied. I never told her she was intelligent (this would have been lying). It’s only that I never told her that she was unintelligent either (this would have been rude). This is human decency basics. I don’t go everywhere telling people what are their flaws. I prefer to praise their virtues and don’t tell their flaws. I expect people to do the same about me.

    Anyway, I accept that my having her “as a safe bet” while screwing other people was completely wrong and was the same that your boyfriend did to you. This is why I say that I got what I deserved and I don’t blame her.

    She knew me when I had several women and she knew it. I was so jaded and bitter. I didn’t think it was possible for me to have a meaningful relationship with commitment for the rest of my life so I played the game.

    I never lied to her: she knew she was one of several. But, since I developed affection for her, I started considered her my girlfriend (instead of part of the harem). Then, I stopped seeing other people because I wanted that to work. This was my last try to have a family because all the previous attempts were so unsuccessful and hurtful. I don’t think there will be more attempts for me. I have given up.

    Some months after that, she cheated on me, but I can’t complain. What you goes around comes around. I am not a victim.

    I know that what I did to this girl and what your bf did to you can be terribly hurtful for the woman involved. And it is WRONG. So I am not trying to justify me or to rationalize my misbehavior. I have learned the lesson.

  • Anonymous

    @ Jesus

    I’m not really a teetotaler, but there isn’t really a word for someone who enjoys drinking moderately but doesn’t get drunk. From what I understand, in Europe, that’s considered a normal person, but here in the US people drink with a purpose.

    I actually have no patience for drunken antics at all. Sure if it’s a rare occasion a person has one too many, I’ll make sure you get home alright. But they’re doing it ALL THE TIME, I’ll just leave them wherever they pass out.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    What I said was, “I’d make you feel as shitty as you made me feel.” How I accomplish this depends entirely on the situation, though typically it involves waiting until the ex in question attempts some sort of teary reconciliation to which I’d give a cold, crushing reply.

    Okay.

  • White Cloud

    imnobody, “But the truth about the hard-on is widely known. Only people in the manosphere know the truth about the gina tingle. Many people out there still think about women as if they only wanted nice guys and to be loved.”

    Really? They think any ol fat ugly dude will do as long as he’s “nice”?

    Women want ATTRACTIVE nice guys to love them, and always have. Since kindergarten my crushes were the “cute boys”, not the ugly ones. Matt C’s advice about putting down a book and hitting the gym is spot on. Humans are visual creatures and what first attracts our eye is something nice to look at. Just like men like “beauty and brains” women like “brawn and brains”. But this is not new. This is common knowledge. Throughout history since the dawn of the written word literature has waxed eloquant about the attractive features of the human form, both male and female, what to speak of sculptures of hot ancient men and women.

    Everybody knows that looks are important. Those who think “being nice” will suffice are willfully ignorant.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan

    I could not believe the Planned Parenthood scene where she reveals her partner count. But yeah, rawdogging it with that smarmy player and getting tingly when she runs into him was terrible. In all fairness, the Ryan Gosling character was no prize.

    .
    Of course he was no prize. But his crime really was just being a pathetic beta, no better or worse than your average poor chump. His counterpart, on the other, really was sociopathic…
    .
    When I went to see that movie, it was a mostly female crowd, and boy, it was quiet as the grave when the movie ended. Probably too much truth. My wife’s reaction, after the quietness, was to pull closer to me and hold my hand tighter. And then shortly afterward, to comment that the female character was a “real bitch”.
    .
    The “tingly” scene with the smarmy player really was the scene that pushed my wife into disliking the character. She had been fooled early on, to side with the woman (go sisterhood!) when it first happened, only to realize much later in the film why it rubbed the guy the wrong way. She didn’t appreciate having been conned into sympathizing for such a horrible woman :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker

      She didn’t appreciate having been conned into sympathizing for such a horrible woman :-)

      My book group recently read the book Brooklyn by Colm Toibin. It was an excellent book, and I developed a strong dislike and disrespect for the female character, who behaved very, very badly toward her husband. I was the only one of eight women who held her accountable for this – everyone else kept pointing out how homesick she’d been, how lonely, blah blah blah. It made me crazy that none of them would hold her accountable for her actions. BTW, I’ve been in this group almost 20 years, I’m the youngest member by quite a bit, and there are a few hardcore feminists, plus a few moderate feminists. I don’t think I’m their favorite :)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    “I always had the impression that he’d rather be dating someone prettier, but considered me a safe bet, being the quiet bookish type.”

    FYI: Bookishness is hot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      FYI: Bookishness is hot.

      Jesus and imnobody have just won permanent favored status at HUS for liking smart girls :)

  • imnobody

    @White Guy

    Well, you seem to be an example of what I said. The hard-on is about the looks (and everybody knows it). The gina tingle is not only about the look, but about social dominance (alphaness). The society is unaware of that.

    When you see women with bad boys, everybody interprets it as a sign of female victimhood. “She only wants to be loved but he treats her so bad. He is abusive: she is a victim”.”She had the misfortune to fall in love with him and he ended up being abusive. And now she cannot leave him because she is so much in LUUURV”.

    Nobody says that the woman is actively looking for bad boys and wants it that way, that she chooses to stay in this relationship.

    Some months ago, there was a report on the TV about young women who like to go partying, to go naked, having casual sex and lots of booze and drugs. The situation was presented as “this new phenomenon that amazes the experts, who are not able to know what the explanation is”. A middle-aged woman (presumably a sociologist or psychologist) appeared saying something along the lines: “I don’t understand that. They must have a low self-esteem. I don’t know why young women don’t want to be respected. They may have absorved the male chauvinism present in the culture and yaddah, yaddah, yaddah”.

    This is what I mean when I say that the society is clueless about the gina tingle.

    By contrast, nobody is unaware that men want women with hot bodies. When a man divorces their wife because she has a younger lover, everybody knows that it’s his fault, because they know how male sexuality works. They understand the hard-on

    When a woman is the one initiating, people assume that women are monogamous, so “he must have done something very bad to her. She must be a victim”. They don’t understand women’s sexuality. They don’t understand the gina tingle.

  • imnobody

    I agree. Bookinesh is hot. Having an interesting conversation with a woman, it’s such a turn on and a sign that she is a keeper.

    Unluckily, women (and men) with culture do not abound in the third-world country I live. Such a shame.

  • jamie

    @ Jesus & imnobody

    I disagree. Hot women who read books are hot.

    An overweight introvert devouring a stack of Jane Austen novels, not so much. She probably doesn’t even show up on your radar.

    And anyway, so Party Guy chooses Bookish Girl, now what do they talk about? Even if the dude DOES read, he doesn’t read Jacqueline Susann and she doesn’t read Phillip K. Dick…again, what do they talk about? All the Steinbeck they read in high school?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Yea, I know for sure I’ve lost some things. Trust, faith, and innocence.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    everyone else kept pointing out how homesick she’d been, how lonely, blah blah blah.

    I really admire this position of you. I most say that even as a “good girl” I have a hard time calling bad behaviour by other females and standing my ground, specially to women that I care about. Is something I’m definitely I’m going to start working on that.
    And talking about holding people accountable for their actions…
    Are you friends with any divorcee’s? Would you agree with frivolous divorcee’s shaming like slut-shaming? Or should we keep thinking divorce is a personal choice?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie

      Are you friends with any divorcee’s? Would you agree with frivolous divorcee’s shaming like slut-shaming? Or should we keep thinking divorce is a personal choice?

      I know two women who have filed for what I consider frivolous divorces, and I have made my feelings on the matter clear by disassociating myself from them. By frivolous I mean, “The magic is gone, I’m bored.” Both of them immediately were with other men, who I suspect were on the scene before they ended their marriages. However, I do believe there are certainly times when divorce is justified or unavoidable. I don’t judge unless I know the circumstances.

  • jamie

    Jesus has just won permanent favored status at HUS for liking smart girls :)

    So he likes smart girls…it’s not like he’s going to call them the next day…

  • imnobody

    @ Jesus & imnobody

    I disagree. Hot women who read books are hot.

    No, I disagree. A 6 who reads books –> A keeper. A 9 who doesn’t read and only talks about popular culture –> A ONS.

    When you know somebody, you get used to her body. You get used to unattractive women so they don’t seem that unattractive to you. You get used to hot woman so they don’t seem that attractive to you. This is the origin of the saying: “For any hot woman, there is something that is fed up with taking her crap”

    And time changes bodies…

    But a woman with a boring conversation, you never get used to it. And a woman with an interesting conversation, it is always new: you never get bored. When you are old, you always have something to talk about.

    I created the first book club in the small third-world country I live. I had several goals: to share the love of book, to have a good conversation and to know intelligent girls for relationships. Yes, I am very bad :-)

  • White Cloud

    @jamie, “Hot women who read books are hot.
    An overweight introvert devouring a stack of Jane Austen novels, not so much. She probably doesn’t even show up on your radar.”

    Exactly, just as HOT nice guys are are hot. A feeble, directionless, passionless, ass-kissing, boring, no-life having, nice guy is NOT hot.

    That’s what guys are not getting. When you see women with “bad boys” who mistreat them its NOT the mistreatment that they crave, its other characteristics of the man, such as the excitement he provides, the way he “owns” his life, his passion, his direction, and most likely his brawny body that they crave. They would crave him whether or not he mistreated them.

    So be the exciting, passionate, focused, awesome-life-having NICE guy with 6 pack abs and buff bi-ceps and you WILL attract women. And you will attract the kind of women who have enough self-respect and self-esteem to NOT stay with guys who mistreat them.

    Just like men, plenty of decent women are passed by for women of equal or even lesser looks who exude a certain aura of sensuality or know how to use their feminine wiles, rightly or wrongly. Some make-up, a low-cut blouse and sashay in her hips as she walks is more likely to attract a man than the plain bookish girl in the corner, even if these 2 females are both a natural 7.

    Then men will complain that all women are bitches because the sensuous and flirtatious woman that originally caught their eye cheated on them or did some other unscrupulous thing.

    The fact is that BOTH women and men have to exert some effort into being attractive to the opposite sex and maintaining that attraction.

    By nature I am not a sexy, flirty type of woman. I like to be alone and surf the net or work on my hobbies in the same clothes every day, a big cotten Hawaiin mu-mu type dress, with my hair uncombed and no accessories or makeup. On lazy days I will sit around, eat, read, surf the web, burp, fart, and do other things that a romantic partner would find a total turn-off. This is how we, men and women, are in our default alone mode. Its natural, comfortable, easy and practical.

    BUT IT DOES NOT ATTRACT THE OPPOSITE SEX.

    When we want to attract the opposite sex we have to go out of our comfort zone and do things like shave, brush our hair, hit the gym, lose or gain weight, wear attractive clothing, flirt, joke, be sociable, etc. Once we attract a partner we have to maintain the attraction by continuing to do the same things in the privacy of our homes where we just want to let ourselves go and fart and burp with wild abandon.

    The call is your’s. If you weigh the cost/benefits and feel that giving up your comfort zone for the acquisition of a romantic partner or several sexual partners is worth it, then you make the trade-off. Otherwise remain alone and comfortable in your own comfort zone. There’s nothing wrong with that either.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “FYI: Bookishness is hot.”

    That carries for men as well, at least for me. If a man is physically attractive, but can’t participate in a great conversation, doesn’t take long for my interest to fade.

    “However, in contrast, the average guy of 5-6 isn’t the least bit attractive to the average woman. Worse yet, the average woman thinks she is really a 7-8 so he natural counterpart is totally off her radar. This in a nutshell explains the entire “where are all the good men”. The question isn’t really about good men, it is about men they find attractive and there simply are not enough 8-9 guys for all the 5-6 women who want them.”

    @Mike C., what is your thought about other qualities that men can use to be attractive toward women besides their physical features? Money, power, dominance, etc. Seems like men can use a wider set of features to attract women, but women only really have one main quality: physical features.

    And do any of you think intelligence can be the main attractive feature that draws a lady in? I know it’s a big factor for me. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And do any of you think intelligence can be the main attractive feature that draws a lady in? I know it’s a big factor for me. ;)

      A sparking intelligence is an absolute must for me. I learned this by dating a not very bright guy in college. The whole relationship was mediocre because he just wasn’t curious about anything other than sports and beer. He didn’t even have an opinion on Reagan vs. Carter :(

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    Hot girls who read are hotter than average girls who read, true. But I spent part of just this the afternoon discussing House of Leaves with a 5. Awesome conversation. People who stimulate you mentally and emotionally are always better than people who just stir you physically. You might notice the looker first, but your attention will stay with the thinker longer.

    And I will call them the next day. I’m not a chucker. I’m just not opening my heart to anyone anymore.

  • White Cloud

    “It doesn’t take much money. Even now there are poor men with more than one wife and who visit prostitutes.”

    I’m talking before sex revolution.

    So am I.

    You really think pre sexual revolution there were no non-rich, non-alpha men who did not visit prostitutes or go to strip clubs or have more than one wife in the cultures where that was allowed? I don’t know where you and Ex New Yorker get your idea that only wealthy, swashbuckling alpha men were the ones throughout ancient and medieval history with more than one wife or visiting prostitutes because that certainly is not the case now.

    Wealthy Sultans, Kings and Maharajas would have several wives and several more concubines. Moderate-income and poor men would have up to 2 wives and the occasional visit to the cheap village prostitute. Not all of them of course, but it was not uncommon throughout the ancient and medieval world, and it is not completely uncommon now. In fact, in many countries HIV is being primarily spread through whom we would consider finanically poor beta husbands going to prostitutes without a condom and coming home passing it on to their wives.

    Stephanie says pre sexual revolution that every society worldwide emphasized complete monogamous chastity to one’s spouse but look closer and you will see that this was mainly meant for WIVES while husbands had more leeway and the chaste wives were meant to look the other way for the sake of the kids and society, as is still the case in many cultures today.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “The magic is gone, I’m bored.”

    This, in part, is about the sense of entitlement people today have. They want things to come to them instead of working for it. The magic hits them and they’re in love; it evaporates and it’s over. Part of the problem is that we’re lazy as a society. Another part is that we think of love as just an emotion and most of us don’t think we have control over our emotions. Love is a choice to open to your partner and allow your partner to open to you. Wholly. Love isn’t an emotion; it’s the spirit of intimate communion.

    …or something.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    That carries for men as well, at least for me. If a man is physically attractive, but can’t participate in a great conversation, doesn’t take long for my interest to fade
    I actually can fell for a guy with good smarts and personality and adapt to the looks. Before I met my hubby I liked my men with no hair but I met a guy that has so much hair that you could see it under his shirt, still he was very bright and funny so by the time we parted ways men’s hair was something that I found sexy by association.

    By frivolous I mean, “The magic is gone, I’m bored.” Both of them immediately were with other men, who I suspect were on the scene before they ended their marriages. However, I do believe there are certainly times when divorce is justified or unavoidable. I don’t judge unless I know the circumstances.

    Fair enough.

    He didn’t even have an opinion on Reagan vs. Carter

    Heh my deal breakers is not having an opinion about Picard vs. Kirk.
    I did had a crush in a guy and we discussed Transformers mythology along with some other geeky stuff but man the guy was a creationist, it was not meant to be.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Jesus Mahoney
    Well is the consequence of the individualism. Society has been trying this idea that if the individual is free and happy, society will thrive. The thing is that they didn’t took in account that many people happiness lie in undermining many of the bases of society and seeking their happiness at the expense of others. When a person cheats is because he/she wants to be happy and there is no consideration for the effects in others or the others are in a second place.
    We were a society focused in happiness of giving now the happiness is on taking.
    I always said that the perfect world was one where everyone could do whatever they want to, but everyone wanted to to what was best for everyone else too. Hard trick to pull.
    Love isn’t an emotion; it’s the spirit of intimate communion.

    …and you shall become one flesh. Which used to be a cool romantic though and now means losing your identity, autonomy and freedom. Scary concept.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Stephanie,

    and he who loses himself shall find himself. By my namesake. Great advice, I think (even though I’m an atheist). The idea, as I understand it, is that our lives only have meaning and purpose in some sort of bigger context. You sacrifice yourself to something or someone other than yourself and in doing so you find your purpose or meaning.

  • Esau

    Bb: “And do any of you think intelligence can be the main attractive feature that draws a lady in? I know it’s a big factor for me.”

    Depending on how much hair-splitting you insist on doing over the meanings of “main” and “attractive” (and perhaps “feature”), I think the field data are long in and the answer is certainly “no”. Really, do you need to have this explained?

    Think back: who were the five or ten or twenty most intelligent boys in your high school graduating class? Were they considered highly attractive by the main run of their female peers? Unless you attended high school on another plane of reality, then I will bet the entire solar system against a saltine that the answer is “no”. Case closed, or at least it should be.

    Now I can hear the twisting, dodging, and nit-picking begin immediately. “Well”, you say, “those guys were all bookish, nerdy, geeks!” To the extent that this is a valid reply, all it does is demonstrate that intelligence is _not_ a “main attraction”, as it takes a distant second or third place behind the obviously higher imperatives of not being nerdy and bookish. “Ah, well”, you say, “what I really meant was more like the soulful intelligence of a writer or an artist, not the geeky logical math kind.” And, of course, if you give yourself freedom to reshape the general word “intelligence” to include only the type that you find appealing, then of course intelligence will be attractive; but that really beggars the meaning of the general, unmodified word as generally understood.

    Do you think, perhaps, that things change as people get older? Here’s a simple syllogism: if any trait X were widely attractive to women, then women would, if possible, naturally gravitate to a spot where single, available men with trait X are highly likely to be found. Picture all the groupies trying to sneak backstage at a rock concert, right? Now, quick: where is the nearest accessible concentration of highly intelligent, single and available college-age men? Wherever that is, do you then expect to find that place highly trafficked by interested, single, college-age women? Answer honestly, second try doesn’t count.

    If you live in the Boston area of the US, then MIT might well leap to mind, and though I never attended there I can assure you the place is the farthest thing from a chick magnet; more like a repellant, really. Case closed, or it should be: intelligence may be a nice side order, but the main dish of “not being a nerd” is still a much higher priority. (Susan and I have argued about MIT before; she claims that MIT men antisocially spend all their time studying, and so don’t go out to meet their potential legions of groupies; somehow I think the observation that women generally detest nerds has a lot more to do with any decision to stay in.)

    At this point it’s worth re-reading some of White Cloud’s earthy wisdom:

    “A feeble, directionless, passionless, ass-kissing, boring, no-life having, nice guy is NOT hot.”

    “[what] they [women] crave, its other characteristics of the man, such as the excitement he provides, the way he “owns” his life, his passion, his direction, and most likely his brawny body that they crave.”

    Knowing something about it, I can tell you that the typical MIT man is most emphatically _not_ any of: feeble, directionless, passionless, or no-life having; and that he very likely does own his life and have direction. So he should be something more than halfway up White Cloud’s list of do’s and don’ts, and is highly intelligent to boot!; and yet he probably can’t budge the tingle meter of most nearby BU coeds. So, something is wrong here, or it must be the case that the rest of the list is much more highly important. (Do you sense a recurring theme?)

    “Boring”? Certainly this is in the eyes of the coed beholder and so hard to judge objectively; but MIT men are certain to have a lively knowledge of many topics. Maybe those topics aren’t of interest to the BU coeds, who then pronounce them “boring”; but that really boils down to “attractive people are attractive.”

    “Provides excitement”; see above, flip side. Unless by excitement you mean drama, ie women are literally asking for trouble.

    “Brawny body”; you got me there, better hunting staying at BU.

    So, what have we learned in this little exercise? That brawny, exciting and not-a-nerd outweigh intelligent as being primary attractors, by a vast and unsympathetic margin. And so, anyone who tries to sell you on the line that “intelligence in men is a main attractor for women” is a hurtful, malicious slug that should have their salt water taffy taken away and lose their TV privileges for at least a week. Case closed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (Susan and I have argued about MIT before; she claims that MIT men antisocially spend all their time studying, and so don’t go out to meet their potential legions of groupies; somehow I think the observation that women generally detest nerds has a lot more to do with any decision to stay in.

      First, self-reported stats on college sex show that MIT students have more sexual partners than Harvard, Princeton or Yale students do.
      Second, I don’t think MIT males are antisocial at all. I recently went to the FAST (Festival of Art, Science and Technology) at MIT and there were so many students out enjoying it. (It was the coolest thing, with all kinds of light shows on the Charles River.) However, I do think they go to one of the most demanding undergrad programs in the U.S., and there are no legacy admissions there – they have to work hard, and they do. That means less partying, though MIT does have a frat scene.
      Third, the M/F ratio at MIT is tough for guys, obviously. My own brother, when he went there, took advantage of a program that enabled him to hop a shuttle to Wellesley College and take a class there. He met his college gf there his first semester.

  • Pingback: Manology Maxim #3: he doesn’t want to be your friend « BbSezMore

  • filrabat

    “The magic’s gone. I’m bored”

    Ahh, those dopamine hits really are addictive, aren’t they? Nothing like a good legally-produced altered state of conscious to warp your view of what an ideal marriage is (or any relationship, for that matter)!

  • Mike C

    @Mike C., what is your thought about other qualities that men can use to be attractive toward women besides their physical features? Money, power, dominance, etc. Seems like men can use a wider set of features to attract women, but women only really have one main quality: physical features.

    And do any of you think intelligence can be the main attractive feature that draws a lady in? I know it’s a big factor for me.
    .
    Where were girls/women like you when I was in high school/college? :)
    .
    Intelligence as main attractive feature? Maybe for an ultra-small minority of women, but the vast majority? I don’t think so….at least my personal experience would suggest not.
    .
    I don’t know how to say this without it sounding like bragging but by conventional metrics like IQ, I am highly intelligent. I had no dates in high school except senior prom, and was a virgin at 21 graduating college. Apparently, no women found my intelligence attractive.
    .
    I got out of college, and thought the only way I would ever get laid is if I improved my physical appearance as much as possible. I lived in the gym, got down to sub 10% bodyfat, regularly tanned, and 11 months later I lost my virginity to a solid 8 to 8.5. 8 years later I married that woman, and divorced her 1 year after that. The in between was quite an interesting journey. Success, but never really the sort of success I would have thought given how much effort I put into my appearance.
    .
    In 2005, post-divorce, I stumbled onto the concept of “Game” and specific personality attributes being the key to sexual attractiveness with women. OMG. Like being handed the doors to the kingdom.
    .
    So, if I had to rank order the importance of male attractiveness features it would be:

    1. Game/psychosocial dominance – without any doubt this is the female equivalent of gorgeous face, awesome body, and youth

    2. Status

    3. Physical appearance

    Intelligence somewhere way down the list. My guess is intelligence probably matters more to high IQ women, as on some level, it probably registers that average to below-average intelligence would result in subpar offspring.

    To this day, it still amazes me how little physical attractiveness matters to women. I know this is true because you see some really ugly dudes with hot women, and if a 8-9 woman walked into a bar, and said “who here wants to fuck now” she’d have a roller coaster line inside 10 seconds. The 8-9 guy in purely physical appearance doesn’t have it that easy. He still has to display the right personality. I suppose the flip side to this is that women must be amazed how little their status matters to guys in terms of sexual attractiveness.

  • Jared

    I’m confused by the frequent mentioning of evolution to explain human sexual attraction. Throughout the last few thousand years, the standards for a female’s attractiveness have dramatically changed. In Western societies in the Middle Ages, having fat was considered attractive. However, in the 21st century, that kind of bodies are considered extremely unattractive. In fact, the women on the covers of magazines in the 1950s would be considered average or slightly too chubby for the tastes of men merely 50 years later.

    Behaviour-wise, the modern Alpha would not have been attractive in the Victorian society. In fact, the men of Jane Austen or Charlotte Bronte are probably considered Beta by modern society but were extremely attractive in the past.

    How can one use evolution which operates on geographical eons to explain changes that happened in geographical seconds or even nanoseconds?

    My alternative theory to explain the current phenomenon of the hook-up culture and women’s preference for Alphas is the influence of the media. It is said that the biggest source of orgasms is not the vagina but one’s brain. And the brain is most influenced by the popular media.

    In most TV shows (especially the recent ones) Beta males have be characterized as unattractive. That’s right, modern women do not have a chance to judge between the qualities of a party boy versus that of a quiet nerd. Instead, they’ve been conditioned to view that party boy as a sex object and the nerd as just a friend.

    Why do girls who like anime prefer more Beta males? In most animes the nerdy guy is often victorious over the more brash and cocky males. The nerdy guy is often shown to use his intellect and wit to combat his opponent who may have been too cocky or reckless. However, in most Western shows the Beta is often jeered, caricatured, and viewed as inept. The Beta guy usually is shown as hanging out with other guys or being incompetent with women. The media can perpetuate racism, violence, and even religion… why can’t it do the same with sexual attraction?

    Finally, combined with the fact that Alphas simply approach more women, the Beta is going to get less girls. Most PUAs do not have a significantly higher success rate but they do approach more women and place themselves in the right place at the right time.

    I think the media and the differences in approach rates are much more important than biological or evolutionary factors.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “Where were girls/women like you when I was in high school/college?

    Oh, I was there. Just quiet and bookish. But in high school, that’s not such a big draw. Brash and booby was way more popular. College got a lot better. ;)

    “So, if I had to rank order the importance of male attractiveness features it would be:

    1. Game/psychosocial dominance – without any doubt this is the female equivalent of gorgeous face, awesome body, and youth

    2. Status

    3. Physical appearance”

    I completely agree with you here.

    From your earlier post:
    “However, in contrast, the average guy of 5-6 isn’t the least bit attractive to the average woman. Worse yet, the average woman thinks she is really a 7-8 so he natural counterpart is totally off her radar. This in a nutshell explains the entire “where are all the good men”. The question isn’t really about good men, it is about men they find attractive and there simply are not enough 8-9 guys for all the 5-6 women who want them.

    Can you tell me how this resolves with your 1-3 list? When you speak about the attractive 8-9 guy, are you talking purely about physical attributes?

    “Ultimately, pragmatically, a guy just has to prioritize doing what he can to make himself more attractive. I’d tell a teenage guy to put the books down for an hour or 2, and make sure he is hitting the gym and weights multiple times a week.”

    Would it not be better to advise for him to learn about Game, then hit the gym?

    It seems ultimately the comparative argument of low SMV women only being attracted to high SMV men is not at issue, if one is talking solely on physical attributes.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    hitting the gym is good for the male psyche, helps with the psychominance over other males, raises your testosterone, its healty, and can be used to make your physical language and posture better, etc.

    The fact that hotness is third on the list doesnt mean its not important. All three measures should be past 80%

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    *clothing is as important as hitting the gym

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “Intelligence as main attractive feature? Maybe for an ultra-small minority of women, but the vast majority? I don’t think so….at least my personal experience would suggest not.”

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to overlook this. I should have been more precise: I meant main feature among other attractive qualities.

    In your example, hitting the gym was smart, as brains alone (like niceness alone) isn’t going to be enough. And I have no way to judge how you looked, you may have been fine but could have just used the confidence boost of the gym. So it’s a 2 for 1.

    And the same goes for a woman (and maybe even worse!) A woman with a big giant brain and little femininity will not be attractive to a guy.

    Anyway, my own personal list of ranking would be:
    1. Intelligence
    2. Confidence – (does not have to be super dominant, but is confident in himself)
    3. Physical appearance (neat, clean, healthy, don’t need a supermodel type)
    4. Treats me and other people well

    I go for the beta with inner game.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bb

      Anyway, my own personal list of ranking would be:
      1. Intelligence
      2. Confidence – (does not have to be super dominant, but is confident in himself)
      3. Physical appearance (neat, clean, healthy, don’t need a supermodel type)
      4. Treats me and other people well

      I go for the beta with inner game.

      Cosigned, Bb. That’s the sweet spot.

  • White Cloud

    “The magic’s gone. I’m bored”

    Ahh, those dopamine hits really are addictive, aren’t they? Nothing like a good legally-produced altered state of conscious to warp your view of what an ideal marriage is (or any relationship, for that matter)!

    “Her figures gone. I’m bored.”

    Ahh, nothing like a hot body to warp your view of what an ideal marriage is.

    ;)

    Matt, I guess I’m one of those rare women for whom intelligence and looks are the 2 main attracters. I’ve never cared about status or social dominance since I’m an introvert. So the only 2 things that would draw me in are physical attributes and smarts.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @White Cloud, I’m going to take a wild guess that we women who are involved in contributing to discussion on the finer points of male/female interaction are a self-selected group who prefer intelligent men. We’re not representative of the average SMP. ;)

  • Mike C

    Can you tell me how this resolves with your 1-3 list? When you speak about the attractive 8-9 guy, are you talking purely about physical attributes?
    .
    No, because for a woman purely physical attributes are a small percentage of sexual attractiveness. Personality and status significantly outweigh pure physical appearance. That said, in my perception of male ranking, by the time you get to 8 and most definitely 9 you are talking the complete package, a guy who has the physical attributes, the status, and displays the right personality characteristics such as confidence, boldness, charm, etc. I’m oversimplifying here, but I think it is roughly right in terms of an 80/20 rule. For a woman, it is 80% physical appearance, and 20% personality such as femininity. For a man, it is 80% Game and status, and 20% physical appearance. The proof of this is the “ugly sexy” concept some women have described. There is no corresponding dynamic for men. You’ll never hear a guy refer to a fat, ugly girl as “sexy” in some other way.

    Would it not be better to advise for him to learn about Game, then hit the gym?
    .
    Yes, but that is a tremendously more difficult undertaking especially if your starting point is complete supplicating Beta. Improving your physical appearance is super easy in comparison which really is why it is much easier for women to boost their SMV. Losing weight/improving your body is formulaic. If you have the discipline, it is simply a matter of doing the same right thing day after day after day. Eat right, go to the gym, do the right workout. 12 months later you look radically different.
    .
    Learning Game is much harder work and much more ambiguous. You have to experiment with stuff…see what works for you…what you can mold into yourself while still being yourself. I’m naturally an introvert, and I’m not a performer so certain types of Game would not work for me. I’m not going to go out and stack a bunch of routines. Game is very a much a trial and error process, and 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
    .
    So, I’d tell a guy do the easy thing first which is the physical stuff plus Yohami is right, it will give you some confidence, and then you can build from there.
    .
    It seems ultimately the comparative argument of low SMV women only being attracted to high SMV men is not at issue, if one is talking solely on physical attributes.
    .
    Not sure I follow you here.

  • Mike C

    I guess Matt C and me should fuse into one commenter. I really wish I could get a nickel for each time we have gotten mixed up recently. :)

  • Mike C

    @White Cloud, I’m going to take a wild guess that we women who are involved in contributing to discussion on the finer points of male/female interaction are a self-selected group who prefer intelligent men. We’re not representative of the average SMP.
    .
    Bingo!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud, I’m going to take a wild guess that we women who are involved in contributing to discussion on the finer points of male/female interaction are a self-selected group who prefer intelligent men. We’re not representative of the average SMP.
      .
      Bingo!

      Very true. The blog draws an intellectually curious and well-informed population. It’s not representative of the SMP as a whole. But speaking for myself, I like chatting with women who share my priorities and tastes :)

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Mike C

    Maybe one of you could become C+. Googlize yourself.

    My husband said the same thing. “For these guys, changing appearance is easy. Changing yourself is a lot harder.”

    Thanks for answering the questions, very helpful!

  • White Cloud

    “I’m naturally an introvert, and I’m not a performer”

    Same here. I really don’t think guys understand how difficult it is for women like me. You say the physical change is the easiest. If a woman does not enjoy or takes no interest in doing the womanly stuff that makes her attractive – shaving/waxing, fixing hair, shopping for attractive and form flattering clothing, making sure her toenails are clipped on time, etc, then she is not going to attract men.

    Moreover if she is not naturally flirtatious or sensuous, she will not be able to keep any man that she may attractive from doing all the physical stuff.

    I had to break up with a good man over this. He knew I was not a girly girl but I looked good when we met. I told him this is a rare thing that you are seeing my like this, I normally don’t maintain myself this way, and he said it doesn’t matter, he’s hooked on me and no matter how hairy my legs get he’s crazy for me. OK. I took him at his word. We moved in together and him seeing me in my natural habitat doing my non-girly-girl stuff eventually proved to be a sexual turn-off for him. Being sexy and what is tradtionally thought of as “womanly” is WORK for me. I had to decide if I was going to be someone I’m not in order to keep him or let him go and be myself. I decided to let him go.

    I’m not blaming him. I now realize that there are certain basics that need to be maintained in order to keep a man sexually interested. I’m just not a natural at maintaining those basics and find them to be laborious. Both the physical and personality aspects.

    So I totally understand how transforming yourself to become attractive to women can be a daunting task for some men. And I fully get it that some men may find it not worth it.

  • imnobody

    I’m just not a natural at maintaining those basics and find them to be laborious.

    I think these are laborious for all women. I have sisters and female cousins and I am always surprised by the amount of work it takes for a woman to be attractive. But it is also laborious to go to work. I’d rather stay in bed.

    For an introvert man it is also laborious to have game in a relationship and to work hard to have the status to be attractive to women.

    There is no free lunch. Everything has a cost. You can pay the cost or you can do away with it.

    This remembers me a co-worker I had while I was working in USA. She was a elementary teacher of Asian descent, a very nice middle-aged woman. She told me that, when she was young, she had been engaged to a friend of her, her childhood sweetheart.

    They were together a lot of years and he was a millionaire. She told me that she had broken up with him because he wanted her to always be well dressed with good make up and so on. She told me: “I am not this way. This perfect dressed woman was not me”. So she dumped him. He was devastated: “I broke his heart” – she told me. This was a lot of years ago and he never got married. She found another man and married him. They stayed married until the time she told me this story.

    When I asked her what had her husband that the millionaire lacked, she couldn’t answer me. She told me that his husband “was a man like a man should be” (I guess the millionaire was very beta and his husband was alpha or a greater beta).

    Anyway, when I saw her losing her temper and screaming the kids, I wondered if it wouldn’t have been better for her to marry the millionaire. Yes, being always beautiful is a job but it is not a hardest job that being an elementary teacher of unruly low-class kids who are always misbehaving and don’t want to work (while the principal demands you to have good result in the state exams).

    Personally, if a woman who is millionaire told me I have to be always well dressed and with good make up and she was going to economically support me for life, I would be waxing my (very hairy) arms and legs like crazy :-)

  • Aldonza

    @imnobody

    Personally, if a woman who is millionaire told me I have to be always well dressed and with good make up and she was going to economically support me for life, I would be waxing my (very hairy) arms and legs like crazy :-)

    Spoken like a man who’s never endured a brazilian wax.

    40 Year Old Virgin – Waxing Scene

  • Esau

    @Susan, re MIT

    The first time we had this discussion I believe you described the social atmosphere you had seen at MIT with words like “silent” and “dead” (I can dig up the exact quotes if you like, it’s in your archives around Oct 09 IIRC). I’m glad things have improved there since.

    Re your brother, I’m glad that things worked out for him. But, of the various family history you’ve revealed on HUS one tidbit I recall was that your brother is extremely handsome; true? If so, then he’s hardly typical and I think it’s kind of deceptive for you to bring him up as an example of anything.

    The main point, of course, is that you’re still avoiding the main point. If intelligence were a primary attractor for young women in general, then MIT would be a chick magnet destination. But it’s not, so it’s not. I don’t know why you can’t admit this simple, obvious point straight up. Did you ever overhear some lonely or hot-to-trot BU girls saying to each other, “I know! Let’s head over to MIT and meet some smart guys!” It’s ludicrous; just try to hold that image in your mind without laughing. Stop dodging and admit the obvious.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau
      To be honest, I have been really impressed by MIT in the last couple of years, so it’s entirely possible my view of the school has changed in that time. They have a lot of momentum, are doing tons of interesting things in the community, and of course feed lots of young people into the tech sector. In contrast, Harvard sits on its laurels and plays it safe. Two years ago a walk across MIT’s campus didn’t reveal anything much going on. Today, there’s a ton of cool architecture and art, and the students are visibly participating and enjoying it. So maybe all that’s needed is to give young people a reason to come out and congregate.

      My brother is/was handsome, it’s true. However, looks are not the issue. There are lots of cute or handsome beta guys and lots of ugly alphas. My brother was a cute beta. I think the stronger correlation is between IQ and dominance, or lack thereof. At least that’s what one might deduce by looking at the plight of STEM majors.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/09/28/relationshipstrategies/why-stem-majors-are-unhappy-in-the-sexual-marketplace/

      You and I always travel the same loop, so I’ll do my part by stating once again that some degree of dominance, or self-confidence is required for female attraction. No way around it. I never said that intelligence was an attractor that will get the job done by itself. However, there are many women for whom it is a non-negotiable, important enough that we will prioritize intelligence over aloofness, or any of the other things that some women seem to prefer. YMMV. My guess is that my brother’s willingness to show up and take a class at an all women’s college sufficed. And of course the supply/demand ratio was in his favor.

      Did you ever overhear some lonely or hot-to-trot BU girls saying to each other, “I know! Let’s head over to MIT and meet some smart guys!” It’s ludicrous; just try to hold that image in your mind without laughing. Stop dodging and admit the obvious.

      Oddly enough, I did. Recently, my BU crew of girls was talking about needing to find some new watering holes. They’re tired of meeting what they called “Massholes” at Faneuil Hall and Hipsters in Allston. They want to meet men with long-term potential. One of the bars on their list to try is Miracle of Science, a burger and beer bar next to the MIT campus. It’s known for attracting grad students and for having a nice ambiance. I’ve been there, and heartily approve of this plan. I can’t say they’ve actually done it yet – this was just a couple of weeks ago. Still, it was on the radar screen.

  • Esau

    (Oops, slight formatting error; italics should end at the “then” of “if-then”; when do we get an edit function?)

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Esau a comment from you to me came through on email but isn’t showing up here. Did you intend for that comment to be published? If so, I need to respond to it.

  • Esau

    Bb — Everything I’ve contributed to HUS is intended to be public, so feel free to refer to it. But if the material you want to respond to is not visible publicly, then it may be confusing for people to see remarks on it, unless you can quote full contexts at sufficient length. I trust you’ll do the right thing as a writer.

    I do recall that some of my comments/posts took a very long time to appear, and when they did so they were back-dated to the time of submission and so could only be seen by scrolling waaay back up the thread. This may have something to do with the moderation function trouble Susan was referring to. So, do take a moment to scan the whole thread and see if the comment in question is there much earlier.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Esau, I don’t know why your comment isn’t showing up on the thread, but it came through the email comments to me and others, so here’s my response.

    Bb: “And do any of you think intelligence can be the main attractive feature that draws a lady in? I know it’s a big factor for me.”

    Depending on how much hair-splitting you insist on doing over the meanings of “main” and “attractive” (and perhaps “feature”), I think the field data are long in and the answer is certainly “no”.  Really, do you need to have this explained?

    I do not. And I clarified my position to Mike C with this statement “Sorry, I didn’t mean to overlook this. I should have been more precise: I meant main feature among other attractive qualities.”

    Think back: who were the five or ten or twenty most intelligent boys in your high school graduating class?  Were they considered highly attractive by the main run of their female peers?  Unless you attended high school on another plane of reality, then I will bet the entire solar system against a saltine that the answer is “no”.  Case closed, or at least it should be.

    I agree with you. Intelligence alone is not a factor and I never intended my statement to imply that it was the ONLY factor, as I clarified here to MIke C: “In your example, hitting the gym was smart, as brains alone (like niceness alone) isn’t going to be enough.”

    Now I can hear the twisting, dodging, and nit-picking begin immediately.  ”Well”, you say, “those guys were all bookish, nerdy, geeks!”  To the extent that this is a valid reply, all it does is demonstrate that intelligence is _not_ a “main attraction”, as it takes a distant second or third place behind the obviously higher imperatives of not being nerdy and bookish.  ”Ah, well”, you say, “what I really meant was more like the soulful intelligence of a writer or an artist, not the geeky logical math kind.”  And, of course, if you give yourself freedom to reshape the general word “intelligence” to include only the type that you find appealing, then of course intelligence will be attractive; but that really beggars the meaning of the general, unmodified word as generally understood.

    Esau, you are not giving me a chance to respond, then imagining the words I might have said had I responded. This is pure projection on your part. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Give me a chance to respond.

    I’m leaving the following here, so that people may see the argument for the case you assume I’m making. I am not, so this argument doesn’t apply to me:

    “Do you think, perhaps, that things change as people get older?  Here’s a simple syllogism: if any trait X were widely attractive to women, then women would, if possible, naturally gravitate to a spot where single, available men with trait X are highly likely to be found.  Picture all the groupies trying to sneak backstage at a rock concert, right?  Now, quick: where is the nearest accessible concentration of highly intelligent, single and available college-age men?  Wherever that is, do you then expect to find that place highly trafficked by interested, single, college-age women?  Answer honestly, second try doesn’t count.

    If you live in the Boston area of the US, then MIT might well leap to mind, and though I never attended there I can assure you the place is the farthest thing from a chick magnet; more like a repellant, really.  Case closed, or it should be: intelligence may be a nice side order, but the main dish of “not being a nerd” is still a much higher priority.  (Susan and I have argued about MIT before; she claims that MIT men antisocially spend all their time studying, and so don’t go out to meet their potential legions of groupies; somehow I think the observation that women generally detest nerds has a lot more to do with any decision to stay in.)

    At this point it’s worth re-reading some of White Cloud’s earthy wisdom:

    “A feeble, directionless, passionless, ass-kissing, boring, no-life having, nice guy is NOT hot.”

    “[what] they [women] crave, its other characteristics of the man, such as the excitement he provides, the way he “owns” his life, his passion, his direction, and most likely his brawny body that they crave.”

    Knowing something about it, I can tell you that the typical MIT man is most emphatically _not_ any of: feeble, directionless, passionless, or no-life having; and that he very likely does own his life and have direction.  So he should be something more than halfway up White Cloud’s list of do’s and don’ts, and is highly intelligent to boot!; and yet he probably can’t budge the tingle meter of most nearby BU coeds.  So, something is wrong here, or it must be the case that the rest of the list is much more highly important.  (Do you sense a recurring theme?)

    “Boring”?  Certainly this is in the eyes of the coed beholder and so hard to judge objectively; but MIT men are certain to have a lively knowledge of many topics.  Maybe those topics aren’t of interest to the BU coeds, who then pronounce them “boring”; but that really boils down to “attractive people are attractive.”

    “Provides excitement”; see above, flip side.  Unless by excitement you mean drama, ie women are literally asking for trouble.

    “Brawny body”; you got me there, better hunting staying at BU.

    So, what have we learned in this little exercise?  That brawny, exciting and not-a-nerd outweigh intelligent as being primary attractors, by a vast and unsympathetic margin.  And so, anyone who tries to sell you on the line that “intelligence in men is a main attractor for women” is a hurtful, malicious slug that should have their salt water taffy taken away and lose their TV privileges for at least a week.  Case closed.”

    Since I was not selling that line I can safely assume I am not a hurtful, malicious slug. I was asking a question to the women of HUS who I have ALSO already said are not representative of the average SMP: ” I’m going to take a wild guess that we women who are involved in contributing to discussion on the finer points of male/female interaction are a self-selected group who prefer intelligent men. We’re not representative of the average SMP.”

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Esau you’re correct, your comment was sorted to last night’s traffic before my pingback, and I know it wasn’t there last night.

    The email I got with your response came in this morning at 7:24am CST. Usually I see comments posted and emailed nearly simultaneously.

    When did you write the response? Do you think it’s a timestamp issue?

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,
    I’d take those self-reported stats with a grain of salt. To “exaggerate” our “experiences” was a common occurrence at STEM Central, to make us feel a little less loserish…particularly vs. other top schools…
    .
    And yes, the STEM folk could be very social, in environments suited to their tastes and doing the things they found appealing and interesting. Problem is the things that brought that out weren’t the typical things to attract the opposite gender. And the Wellesley bus? By the time I was there, the Wellesley women were fairly unwelcoming of a lot of the guys who attempted that. How dare you come on our campus? And yes, there are frats. Heck, that’s what probably saved me from turning Omega, but most of the frats are still packed with average betas. Like that article a while back about North Carolina schools (where women were complaining about there not being enough guys, yet engineering oriented NC State was just down the road), STEM Central didn’t have the hordes of women groupies (seeking intelligent-men) storming the halls off of Mass. Ave…
    .
    And yes, the curriculum did make partying much less frequent. Heck, having a gf was described as “adding another class” to your load, but that was a trade few guys would pass up, if they could “get lucky”. Now for STEM women, it probably was a much different experience. However, a good chunk of them really put academics above everything else…

  • filrabat

    As Mike C said, learning game is very ambiguous..in large part because the female turn-on buttons are likewise ambiguous, and to my mind bordering on outright arbitrary. Pull from the street or campus quad 20 random women and you’ll get no less than 40 different opinions of what “sexy” or “alpha” is.

    Mike is also very much right about not all forms of Game being equally helpful. You have to know your authentic self first before you decide what kind of Game is right for you. This isn’t the caricature ‘feminized’ ‘getting in touch with your feelings’ I’m talking about – I’m talking about knowing where your own passions lie, where your core talents and competencies lie, then make THOSE your base. Whatever you do, DO NOT…not try to do an outright personality transplant (i.e. be the opposite of what you are). You’ll fall flat on your face every time.

    Look at it this way: The National Enquirer and The New Yorker are for two entirely different markets, so these publications market themselves to those most likely to show high interest in what they have to say. Likewise for People and O magazine on one hand, and Scientific American and Smithsonian on the other. (of course you can sub-divide between Smithsonian and National Geographic and such, but that’s for later on, so to speak.

    Due to that, I would be VERY skeptical of types of game that simply say “Just Do It!”, for they are higly likely to be mass-marketed slop of the type we complain about commercialized pop culture having. It also signals you either don’t know yourself or easily (mis)lead by trendy thinking. So be yourself, improve on your best qualities (meaning “find a way to make a future of them”, or at least a way to help you discover news truths and build confidence — then scan the market to see what’s available). If you don’t like what’s avaliable, then figure out where your type of market is most likely to be

  • White Cloud

    “important enough that we will prioritize intelligence over aloofness, or any of the other things that some women seem to prefer”

    The more intelligent a person is, the more aloof they tend to be from mainstream society, so that could in favor for the MIT guys, creating an air of mystery around them.

  • White Cloud

    @imnobody, “For an introvert man it is also laborious to have game in a relationship and to work hard to have the status to be attractive to women.”

    I acknowledged that and said I totally understand if men don’t want to labor for us or drop out totally. Afterall I have done so myself.

    “There is no free lunch. Everything has a cost. You can pay the cost or you can do away with it.”

    OR men like you and women like me can get together! ;) instead of trying to change ourselves into people we are not to attract people who are not like us.

    Bb,

    I already stated above that being an introvert myself, status and social dominance are not attracting factors for me, while intelligence and looks are, so if I ever get out to Mass and I’m jonesing for a man, I’ll DEFINETLY check out MIT. I’m sure there are plenty of men with pretty/handsome faces on that campus. And getting a hot body is just a matter of eating right and lifting some weights. It doesn’t even take up that much time. My requirements are few and an intelligent man would not have to do an entire “lifestyle makeover” in order to get me tingling. And I like beards so he wouldn’t even have to shave (as long as I don’t have to either, he he).

  • Blues

    Oddly enough, I did. Recently, my BU crew of girls was talking about needing to find some new watering holes. They’re tired of meeting what they called “Massholes” at Faneuil Hall and Hipsters in Allston.They want to meet men with long-term potential. One of the bars on their list to try is Miracle of Science, a burger and beer bar next to the MIT campus. It’s known for attracting grad students and for having a nice ambiance. I’ve been there, and heartily approve of this plan. I can’t say they’ve actually done it yet – this was just a couple of weeks ago. Still, it was on the radar screen.

    They say they don’t want to date assholes anymore, want LTR stuff but they have not done it yet, *sigh* honestly i’d like to hear the success stories of that strategy first, i’ve heard this version from maaaaaany women and the ending is the same. If they do go for it and more importantly stick to the plan of ditching assholes great, huge kudos for getting out of the vicious circle for women in the SMP, meanwhile i’ll play the Saint Thomas card on this one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Blues

      They say they don’t want to date assholes anymore, want LTR stuff but they have not done it yet, *sigh*

      Sigh indeed. These women are now 23, it’s high time they stopped taking shots with rugby players in bars. I don’t see any of them finding a life partner if they stay on their current path – it’s terrible strategy. And they’ve been reading religiously here since the day I started this blog. So much for women taking my advice :-/

  • White Cloud

    “They say they don’t want to date assholes anymore, want LTR stuff but they have not done it yet, *sigh* honestly i’d like to hear the success stories of that strategy first, i’ve heard this version from maaaaaany women and the ending is the same. If they do go for it and more importantly stick to the plan of ditching assholes great, huge kudos for getting out of the vicious circle for women in the SMP, meanwhile i’ll play the Saint Thomas card on this one.”

    Susan, any statistics now how many MIT grads are married with kids today vs those who are not and have never been?

    That would be a good indicator on whether or not women ever go for MIT guys.

  • jamie

    @ Susan, Blues, White Cloud & anyone else engaged in the MIT discussion

    I’ve never been on the MIT campus, but I used to work catering events at Cal Tech where there were always attractive types walking around campus. Maybe they weren’t conventionally good-looking, but I happen to like intelligent men who wear glasses. I’m weird, I know.

    Anyway, the question nobody is really asking is, How do you get guys like that to talk to you? I’m kind of shy myself, so I won’t approach a guy unless I have something to say, even if I really want to. It seems to me that nerdy men and the type of woman that likes them are at a stalemate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jamie

      Anyway, the question nobody is really asking is, How do you get guys like that to talk to you? I’m kind of shy myself, so I won’t approach a guy unless I have something to say, even if I really want to. It seems to me that nerdy men and the type of woman that likes them are at a stalemate.

      This is the biggest problem in the SMP, as far as I am concerned. As I mentioned, high IQ and social dominance are negatively correlated in my view, most likely having to do with testosterone levels. Then you’ve got the women who are not promiscuous or extremely social – the least hypergamous ones. So this majority of “have nots” contains all of the introverts. That’s where there is real opportunity for improving things but it’s a real uphill battle to create ways for these two groups to interact, and our culture doesn’t support it at all. Fifty years ago, brainy guys and girls found each other quite readily. We no longer support that kind of assortative mating in our culture.

  • White Cloud

    “Anyway, the question nobody is really asking is, How do you get guys like that to talk to you? I’m kind of shy myself, so I won’t approach a guy unless I have something to say, even if I really want to. It seems to me that nerdy men and the type of woman that likes them are at a stalemate.”

    I KNOW!

    I’m an introvert but I realized if that’s the type of guy I want, another introvert, I’m going to have to be the one to approach and talk first. I feel that me requiring him to approach and not requiring him to jump through hoops to prove how popular or “socially dominant” he is is an equal trade-off for him not expecting me to spend my hard earned money on manicures, pedicures, waxings and other stuff men usually want women to do to look “hot”.

    He won’t be getting Marilyn Monroe with me but I don’t require him to be James Dean/Bond so its an even trade.

  • imnobody

    OR men like you and women like me can get together! instead of trying to change ourselves into people we are not to attract people who are not like us.

    The problem is that we are such a tiny minority (at least in the country I live) but it sounds like a great idea.

    I had been told that in Germany and Scandinavia, people are introvert and cultured, but it’s so friggin cold!!! :-)

  • imnobody

    “Anyway, the question nobody is really asking is, How do you get guys like that to talk to you? I’m kind of shy myself, so I won’t approach a guy unless I have something to say, even if I really want to. It seems to me that nerdy men and the type of woman that likes them are at a stalemate.”

    I was shy before learning Game and I know this situation. Try smiling at them, and talking to them. If even this is hard for you, try to get a common friend to introduce you in a casual situation (like having a party where both of you are). When you are in a conversation with him let him talk about him…he won’t stop and you won’t have to do anything. A win-win situation.

    Another option is to learn about their hobbies and start practising them. If he goes to a meeting or science club, you can go too. Now you have a excuse to ask him questions and to be with him, while you are stroking his ego.

    You: “Please tell me how to solve this programming problem you have”.
    Him: Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah..
    You: “Thank you! Don’t tell me that ++ means “add one” in Java! I would never had imagined!! You’re such a programming guru! (You swoon – in his arms)” :-)

    Nerdy shy guys are really nice people and are eager to have female friends, let alone dates. Don’t be afraid. You are guaranteed to have a good reaction. Don’t bother about that.

    This is the step one (“The approach”) of my new book “Girl-game for nerd boys: from not knowing him to marrying him in six simple steps”. Subtitle: “He is into you but he is so frigging shy that you will have to do all the work”.

    This is going to be bigger than “The Rules”!! Very soon, you will watch me on Oprah!! The movie is starring Jennifer Anniston in the role of a woman hopelessly devoted to a shy nerd. :-)

  • jamie

    @ imnobody

    lol. The helpless female shtick is sooooooo not my thing. I prefer to be capable and I detest using feminine wiles to get men to do things for me. Or worse, pretending not to know how to do something. Anyway, how do they know I’m not just flirting to get something out of them?

    and anyway, I can’t flirt, so….why embarrass myself?

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Anyway, how do they know I’m not just flirting to get something out of them?

    Ah, but if you’re flirting to get to know them, then it’s fine. And if you flirt with a guy, and he responds back to you, then the chances are…he’s okay with you flirting, and may even be enjoying it.

    But in all honesty, in my experience, the shy, quieter, intelligent guy really appreciates it if you simply talk and listen. That’s about all it takes. If he’s introverted and you an steer the conversation towards something he really knows about, it’ll be a lot easier for him to talk with you, open up, and share his expertise. If you admire that expertise (out of sincerity) then he’ll open up more. My husband is fairly introverted, and he really enjoys talking with people who carry a lot of the conversational weight. He’ll often report when returning from a party. “Oh, yes, I liked talking to X. He/She did all the work in the conversation, so I just had to listen and respond as needed. It as nice.”

  • Blues

    Basically what imnobody said, just make keep some ideas in mind:

    1)Don’t seem too interested(i know, it sounds counterproductive keep reading)
    2)Don’t be too pushy (push to get to know him, but don’t over do it)
    3)Feminine (yes Jamie this will be hard for you but do it anyway or accept a lower success rate).

    Why do i say this? well cause recently what i thought was good from the guy perspective i found out it can be missinterpreted.

  • ExNewYorker

    Interesting conversation…
    .
    The easiest way to approach STEM guys like that is through social circle, via friends and friends of friends. However, assuming you don’t have that situation, the alternatives include taking coursework at that school (some of the STEM schools have summer classes, or exchange programs with other schools). These schools also tend to have seminars, if you’re not in the mood of doing direct STEM coursework, with a variety of topics, and going to such seminars is a good excuse to get on campus. Some of the clubs on campus also have connections to outside groups, so hobbies can work as a way to get yourself in the picture. If you’re religious, those clubs and groups tend to be favorable as well. At this point, STEM guys haven’t developed much confidence outside their area of knowledge, and you’ll likely have to be a little more pro-active in relating with them. Smiling, asking for help, friendly demeanor, all these help.
    .
    If you’re outside the college world, going to work for the large number of tech companies is also a good way to run into these guys. By this point, your average STEM guy will have probably picked up some more confidence and assertiveness than back in school, so it may be a little easier to get the ball rolling. Work related events can be as start, such sporting groups (some companies have sporting events, within the company or outside), or company events (such as annual picnics, or the like) can be a good place to meet these guys. Cross functional “get togethers” also work…the group of guy friends I’ve had over the years liked having group barbq’s where we’d invite other groups (such as Finance, HR, Staffing, Accounting, where there were more womenfolk), and we got a lot of friendships that way (and through social circle, there were a decent number of marriages born that way). Outside one’s company, there’s tons of conferences, and seminars, where again, you can meet STEM men. All these have very favorable (to women) male to female ratios.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker
      I know a young woman, a recent graduate of Harvard, who really, really wants a smart, good guy. (Her college bf turned into a real jerk two years in.) She accepted a job doing social media marketing at a startup near San Francisco. That is what I call good strategy.

  • Blues

    Fix
    3) BE Feminine

    Also on point #2 making plans for another day is a good idea

  • OffTheCuff

    How to attract a nerdy man?

    Touch him. Just grab his hand or shoulder or hair whatever. Don’t let it go. No words needed.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I’ve never been on the MIT campus, but I used to work catering events at Cal Tech
    You touched the holy land were Stephen Hawkins spent time? I hate you so much!!!! :p

    Since I married that type of guy I will say try to pay attention if they are wearing a funny shirt (most of my husband’s friends love funny nerdy shirts) and comment or ask about it, that will give him something to talk that he will feel confident because he knows and they freaking love to show off their nerdyness.

    You can make conversation around it for a while and them you can as them for their e-mail accounts. Phones are too personal and they can get nervous talking to a girl but typing is usually more comfortable for them. My husband is not a talker but he used to sent me long emails with everything that happened to him, he then asked me questions and we fell in love :)

    After a few mails he will probably find enough confidence to talk to you in the phone and/or person. Also be patient this is a slow process depending on the level of shyness.

    I will say be feminine is good for this too, men that are used to be surrounded by men usually have a hard time treating you in a girlfriend way and not in malefriend way and given that he is not making out with his male friends you don’t want him to friendbox you (yes men can do that too, specially the shy ones, avoids getting hurt).
    So wearing something girly is good to cue to then that you are not just interested in their computer skills (and trust me this guys need a very clear signal that you are into them as men, because they are sadly used to women that want a free tech support and nothing else, so you are going to need to bring the “heavy weaponry” to conquer).
    My best advice is that if you are going to meet with them ask them what kind of clothes they like in women (I know totally antifeminist bear with me) but usually even the less experienced men knows that you don’t ask that, unless you want to look particularly nice for them and if you want to dress nice for a guy chances are you also want him to undress you nice ;)

    But again you don’t have to do the whole feminine number, chances are there are one or two feminine things that you don’t totally hate. Try those and she what it works.
    I don’t consider myself particularly feminine but I love flowers so I usually have something with a flower in it, like a bag, a hairpin, a hat… I also have legs like greek columns so I started to wear skirts and miniskirts more often specially when my no husband visited me, because he told me he was a legs guy. He loved it and I got used to it after a few months.

    A couple of feminine details are usually enough you don’t have to change yourself just add a couple of things that say “see this boobs are not just decorative”, YMMV. Hope that helps. :)

  • White Cloud

    “The helpless female shtick is sooooooo not my thing. I prefer to be capable and I detest using feminine wiles to get men to do things for me. Or worse, pretending not to know how to do something.”

    Jamie, I’m not into these silly games either. If a man cannot appreciate a simple and straightforward approach then it doesn’t bode well for what waits you further in.

    I’m willing to accept shy and nerdy guys at face value without making them jump through hoops to prove their masculinity. Nor will I jump through hoops to prove my femininity.

    I’m a healthy, heterosexual female. If that’s not “woman enough” for them then they can try their hand with the hot girly-girl cheerleaders and see how well they get accepted.

    Good luck!

  • SayWhaat

    How to attract a nerdy man?

    Touch him. Just grab his hand or shoulder or hair whatever. Don’t let it go. No words needed.

    Until he freaks out and runs away. *sigh*

  • SayWhaat

    I used to work catering events at Cal Tech where there were always attractive types walking around campus.

    My sister is heading there in the fall. I think I hate her now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      My sister is heading there in the fall. I think I hate her now.

      Congrats to her, that’s quite an accomplishment. Yeah, she’ll have her pick, I imagine.

  • SayWhaat

    Re: Attracting Nerdy Men

    I actually think that behaving too feminine and girly might be too intimidating for nerdy guys, especially on the first meeting. Asking tons of questions about things they’re interested in is probably a better way to start off so that they know that you’re genuinely interested (ya dig?).

    Also, Stephenie, I’m gonna disagree with the one bit of advice you had about asking the guys what he wants you to wear. That’s fine if you’re already in a relationship; if not, it’s just weird. You don’t have to go all out in a tight dress and heels to get his attention, but just look nice in front of him. That can be done whether you’re wearing a skirt or jeans and a fitted tee. ;)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    That’s fine if you’re already in a relationship; if not, it’s just weird.

    I don’t know it usually worked for me, specially because few women dress for a guy nowadays so is a clear IOI and something that is so rare that usually flatters the breath away from men, at least IME.

    You don’t have to go all out in a tight dress and heels to get his attention, but just look nice in front of him. That can be done whether you’re wearing a skirt or jeans and a fitted tee.

    So how long had you been married now? ;).
    Sorry I couldn’t resist, but when I was single I always payed attention to people that was successful in the way I wanted to be (happily married 20 +) so you want to have a boyfriend (possible love of your life and your ticket out of the shark infested waters of the dating market) or not?
    The point is that he needs to know for sure that you are trying to look nice FOR him.
    If he loves women in nerdy shirts the shirt will do, but if you don’t want to ask or don’t know, then feminine is the way to go, I never seen a man saying that they hate feminine women, have you?

  • SayWhaat

    Stephenie, my advice is aimed towards the women in this thread who find it difficult (and even dislike) to dress up and behave in a more feminine manner.

    specially because few women dress for a guy nowadays so is a clear IOI and something that is so rare that usually flatters the breath away from men

    Maybe this is a product of my environment (fashion-savvy NYC), but I don’t see this at all. Most of the women I know dress very well, and yes they dress in a way that is very flattering and appealing to men. I maintain that asking a guy (on a first date, no less!) what he would like you to wear is weird. I can’t imagine anybody not being weirded out by that (well, maybe not men who expect their women to be servile). It’s only okay after a relationship has been established, otherwise he might think you’re a stage-5 clinger who doesn’t possess her own mind.

    Or he might be tempted to say “nothing”. Lol.

    I’m not telling jamie and White Cloud to be unfeminine, I’m saying that for shy, nerdy guys in particular, it’s best not to wham them over the head with the FEMALE HAMMER. After all, haven’t guys here said that most men get very intimidated the more they find a woman attractive? And wouldn’t this be compounded with a shy, nerdy guy who is inexperienced with female attention?

    FYI, I always dress nicely on dates. For first dates especially (since they are usually casual in nature) I go with a cute, casual dress that emphasizes my figure. I’ve also gone on dates where I wore a fitted turtleneck and jeans (and I was still asked for a few more dates after that). My point is that you don’t have to go all serious femz with flowers and shit, but wearing anything you’re comfortable in that also highlights your best physical assets is good.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Stephenie, my advice is aimed towards the women in this thread who find it difficult (and even dislike) to dress up and behave in a more feminine manner.

    Well I think is obvious that women that are like that are not willing to do any effort to be more attractive even if that means they will not attract the man of their choice as long as they are okay with that they shouldn’t care that much, but thinking that because you are trying to attract a market that is less crowded you shouldn’t do any effort I think is a huge mistake, even the shyest guy wants to have a woman for girlfriend not a strange hybrid with XX features but XY behaviour. If attracting a partner was as easy as desiring one none of us will need any help or advice.
    Had you seen the guys giving advice to each other? Work out, learn game and so on? They don’t sugarcoat with you is difficult so don’t do it. Nothing in this world is easy or free.

    (well, maybe not men who expect their women to be servile)

    So dressing nice for a guy you are attracted to = servile? Well that is news to me.

    After all, haven’t guys here said that most men get very intimidated the more they find a woman attractive? And wouldn’t this be compounded with a shy, nerdy guy who is inexperienced with female attention?

    And they also said that the like their women feminine even if they are not conventionally attractive. So why pay attention to one type of advice instead of the other?

    Or he might be tempted to say “nothing”. Lol.
    Shy nerdy guy…? I think that would be a good telling that he is not as shy as you though he was. ;)

  • SayWhaat

    thinking that because you are trying to attract a market that is less crowded you shouldn’t do any effort

    I never said “don’t put in any effort”. I’m advising to put in just the amount of effort that is comfortable for them that doesn’t feel like overdoing it. Baby steps for everyone.

    So dressing nice for a guy you are attracted to = servile? Well that is news to me.

    You are putting words in my mouth, Stephenie. I never said “don’t dress nice for a guy you are attracted to” — in fact, I advised just the opposite. I’m saying that asking a guy what he wants you to wear before a first date — before you even know who he damn well is — is retarded. Wear what makes you feel good and feminine, whether that’s a tight dress or a turtleneck, as long as it makes you look good. As you get to know him better, you can figure out what he likes on you, and dress accordingly.

    You’re speaking from the viewpoint of someone who got to know her husband before you both met in person. I’m talking strictly about going on a first date without even knowing what the hell the other person is like. My comment about servility was to illustrate how someone of less savory character might interpret a girl asking how to dress — as though she needed permission, or needed to be ordered around.

    And they also said that the like their women feminine even if they are not conventionally attractive. So why pay attention to one type of advice instead of the other?

    For the last time, I’M NOT TELLING THEM TO BE UNFEMININE. Goddamn.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    You’re speaking from the viewpoint of someone who got to know her husband before you both met in person. I’m talking strictly about going on a first date without even knowing what the hell the other person is like. My comment about servility was to illustrate how someone of less savory character might interpret a girl asking how to dress — as though she needed permission, or needed to be ordered around.

    Actually I’m talking from the POV that thinks that in dating you should go big or go home.
    Also I mentioned meeting after a few interchanges in a safe ground like email so by that time you should know more or less how that person is. So is not a “hi give me your number let’s meet for coffee”, more like “we had been talking for a while i would like to see you in person again”, capisce?

  • Mike C

    Actually I’m talking from the POV that thinks that in dating you should go big or go home.
    .
    I don’t know…maybe it is a cultural difference, but I think SayWhaat is closer to how a woman should act on the American dating scene. I don’t think you should “go big” or come on to strong on a 1st or 2nd meeting even if you have chatted via e-mail, and I don’t think a woman should ask a guy what she should wear. I personally would interpret it as needy, try-hard, and perhaps yes a clinger type.

  • Mike C

    Until he freaks out and runs away. *sigh*

    Seriously? For real. This really happened? How old was the guy?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I personally would interpret it as needy, try-hard, and perhaps yes a clinger type.

    But you are a man with options at this point. Is the nerdy type going to think the same? I feel more than happy to correct that if you think this is the average man thinking
    Of course mystery will probably respond with a neg: Can’t you dress yourself?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I wanted to elaborate that in my experience the biggest concern the nerdy shy type has that makes him nervous the first meetings is wonder “does she likes me?” since we know this idea on their brains, usually makes him react in a way that is more often than not a bonekiller for ladies (nervous, ackward…) I though that it works better to show them the answer in undeniable terms. The ladies that came hard into many of my paired up nerdy friends, usually ended up becoming permanent girlfriends (or wives).
    But again this is a target audience that is not used to have many women showing any real interest so once that part is over with they can usually relax more and be themselves and nerds are really cool when they are not sweating buckets out of fear or rejection.
    Of course all this is just my experience in nerddom. Maybe the guys targeted by this ladies will indeed find scarier a strong come on that something softer.
    Feel free to dismiss this advice, ladies and try your way.
    I just chimed in because I hang out with this type all the time, but maybe like women they say they want a clear IOI but in reality that just make it worse, YMMV.

  • White Cloud

    “I’m saying that asking a guy what he wants you to wear before a first date — before you even know who he damn well is — is retarded. ”

    LOL! I can’t imagine asking a guy before our first date “what would you like me to wear?”

  • imnobody

    Well, the “nerdyboy” guru is on HUS channel and he is ready to ask your questions:

    But in all honesty, in my experience, the shy, quieter, intelligent guy really appreciates it if you simply talk and listen. That’s about all it takes.

    Yes, a good observation on behalf of the audience. Look. As I said in page 47 of my book, as much as guy in HUS hate to be friendzoned, you have to approach your nerdyboy as if you only want to be friends. A nerdyboy is used to be friends with women (he is usually friendzoned) and is used to develop feelings for the women who have friendzoned them. Being friends is not threatening for them and you can scale from this. Take into account that, unlike girls, being just friends does not preclude ending up becoming a couple.

    So you have to do this thing in stages, as if he were an old-fashioned girl. Stage 1: Know him as an acquaintance, using mutual friends or joining a club/meeting/organization that he belongs to. Stage 2: Let him talk about his interest, his life. Become a good friend of him, as if you wanted to friendzone him. Stage 3: Try to get him to be interested in you. Dress in an attractive way, touch him (there are millions of excuses to touch him), be emotionally intimate with him, etc. Stage 4: You will have to take your chances and try getting him to make a move or making a move by yourself.

    Throughout all the process, try to find or make a mutual friend who can give you feedback. This way is so much easier. For example, you will know if he is interested in you, if he wants to propose but he is very shy.

    As in everything in life, nothing is guaranteed. But nerdyboys are in a drought of female interest, they are eager to have a girlfriend and it is likely that things go well. It is the opposite of alphas, who have very options. Nerdyboys have very few options.

    Let my share a personal story of mine (when somebody is as old as me -41 y.o. -, he has lots of personal stories). My little sister is a shy nerdy girl with a big heart. She was very shy so she didn’t have a boyfriend. I suffered for her because, although she had not told me, I knew she was eager to have a boyfriend. She is very affectionate, intelligent, hard-working: quite a catch. But she is very shy so she had no boyfriend while all her friends had one.

    We have a very close relationship and she told me that she was starting to develop feelings for one of her friends, which she had known since childhood (they played together when children and they were always friends). The guy was a nerdy shy guy just like her. A really great guy, intelligent, with a big heart and very good principles.

    I told her: “Tell him. Tell him that you love him”. She was reluctant, because she was very shy and expressing such feelings is SCARY. I was telling her this almost on a daily basis throughout the whole summer. Finally, she text messaged him and told him that she was interested in him. Soon after, she received a text message telling her something along the lines that: “He was sorry. He didn’t see her that way. He had never imagined that she could think of him this way”.

    I was present when she received the text message. We were in a family trip, laying on a beach. My sister tried to disguise that she was crying. I felt so bad to having recommended her this course of action.

    Anyway, it seems that the only thing missing is that the guy had to make his mind, because several months later they started to date. He told her that, if she hadn’t told him, she wouldn’t have considered the idea.

    They have been a couple for seven years now and they are talking about children. They are a great couple and they remain very much in love. They are so similar. I am very happy with my brother-in-law (you say it that way?), which is the brother I never had.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @imnobody
      I love the happy ending to your sister’s story!

      So you have to do this thing in stages, as if he were an old-fashioned girl. Stage 1: Know him as an acquaintance, using mutual friends or joining a club/meeting/organization that he belongs to. Stage 2: Let him talk about his interest, his life. Become a good friend of him, as if you wanted to friendzone him. Stage 3: Try to get him to be interested in you. Dress in an attractive way, touch him (there are millions of excuses to touch him), be emotionally intimate with him, etc. Stage 4: You will have to take your chances and try getting him to make a move or making a move by yourself.

      I can’t help it, I find this heartbreaking. What have we done to our men?

  • imnobody

    @White Cloud

    White Cloud, with all respect, I think you are obsessed about being always yourself, not faking it, “whoever loves me has to love me the way I am”, .

    This is very American: being yourself, not compromising, finding a soul mate, the whole enchilada.

    If you want to be yourself, go live into a cabin like the Unabomber, become a nun or go to the Tibet to meditate. If you are in a society, you have to compromise and never being yourself.

    The word “person” means “mask”. “Personna” was the name of the masks Roman actors wore on scene. Each mask represented different characters. So there was a mask for the father, a mask for the mother, a mask for wealthy guys, a mask for the grumpy man. The same actor could interpret different characters only by changing his mask.

    The same way, you wear a mask when you go to your job, a mask where you are attending public services, a mask with your kids, a mask with your husband. You don’t behave the same way with your kids that with your friends.

    When I am boss in my job, I have a different personality than when I’m with my parents. It is not that I am faking it. It is that I feel this way.

    In fact, psychological studies show that people have different personalities depending on the social environment you have. In fact, “your true self” does not exists. A person is a set of incoherent feelings, thoughts and actions.

    What you want is, basically, toss the mask when you are with your partner. Why? You don’t do it with other people. Why with your partner? It is that your partner has to be your soul mate? BS. The romantic movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism) has done a lot of harm to Western society with its half-baked ideas.

    As Dr. Lazarus says in “Marital Myths” (http://amzn.to/o5fqVe), being yourself, completely honest and open with your best friend is great. But, if you do it with your spouse, it produces emotional suffocation and the eventual end of the relationship. You must keep some mistery in the marriage.

    So, when you have a S.O, you don’t have to wear comfortable sweatpants and he doesn’t have to devolve into the beta boy who wants to have a mummy.

    “But changing the way I am takes a lot of work and I suck at this”

    Welcome to the real world. Relationships take effort and we all suck at them. But everything in life takes effort. Why should relationships be different?

  • imnobody

    Thank you, Susan. I loved it too. By the way, my sister is a teacher and my brother-in-law is a doctor, so he is quite a catch.

    He told her that, if she hadn’t told him, she wouldn’t have considered the idea.

    I meant: “He told her that, if she hadn’t told him, HE wouldn’t have considered the idea.”

    I can’t help it, I find this heartbreaking. What have we done to our men?

    Well, besides the culture wanting to emasculate men for decades (school, media, family, you name it) so they are like women (Ritalin here we go), the worse thing is rejecting boys in a rude manner. Women love to do that, because this raises their self-esteem. A girl who is a 6 is approached by a boy who is a 6. She thinks she is a 8 so she feels threatened in her ego (“If this guy approaches me, this means that he thinks he is in my league so she thinks I am a 6″). By rejecting him in a rude manner, she reassures herself and her female friends that she is so above him.

    But this produces deep wounds in a man’s soul. These nerdy guys have a lot of rude rejections in his past. They think they are losers, they think they are not worthy of any woman. I was one of them. One of my nephews is one of them right now. He is such a bright guy (he works in STEM in the University and has a very high IQ), he is nice and a family man. He is in his late twenties and he has never had a girlfriend. There a lots of guys that are this way.

    When I got into the country I lived, I was amazed that women rejected me in a polite manner as if they didn’t want to hurt me, as if they wanted to disguise the rejection so you feel less bad. This was new for me. But it can be done.

    So a nerdy guy has to be approached with care. His self-esteem is fragile. But, if you get it, it will be faithful and will cherish you a lot.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    “Sigh indeed. These women are now 23, it’s high time they stopped taking shots with rugby players in bars. I don’t see any of them finding a life partner if they stay on their current path – it’s terrible strategy.”

    Terrible strategy indeed. By the time they’ve reached that point on the path, what non-meathead from a bar would want to give them a shot at a relationship? Not I.

  • Blues

    Well, besides the culture wanting to emasculate men for decades (school, media, family, you name it) so they are like women (Ritalin here we go), the worse thing is rejecting boys in a rude manner. Women love to do that, because this raises their self-esteem. A girl who is a 6 is approached by a boy who is a 6. She thinks she is a 8 so she feels threatened in her ego (“If this guy approaches me, this means that he thinks he is in my league so she thinks I am a 6″). By rejecting him in a rude manner, she reassures herself and her female friends that she is so above him.

    But this produces deep wounds in a man’s soul. These nerdy guys have a lot of rude rejections in his past. They think they are losers, they think they are not worthy of any woman. I was one of them. One of my nephews is one of them right now. He is such a bright guy (he works in STEM in the University and has a very high IQ), he is nice and a family man. He is in his late twenties and he has never had a girlfriend. There a lots of guys that are this way.

    Been there, done that, not only this kicks your self steem to the gutter because you think (naively of course) that this is just young women (15-22) acting out of immaturity and not knowing what they want but as you live your 20s and the closer you get to your 30s you don’t see this change at all.

    Save for a few that ironically are the ones who used to be cad magnets for years and rejected you the harshest, this makes you highly suspicious it’s not that they “grew up” it’s just no one will take’em anymore and this, this hits you hardest because you realize if one approaches you it’s just cause they feel sure you’re so desperate that you’ll take anything, that you’re her backup plan she’s activating as a last resort and even then the last straw.

    The very last insult is that she thinks can make you pay for what she gave away for free to others, as if your experience could be magically deleted.

  • imnobody

    The very last insult is that she thinks can make you pay for what she gave away for free to others, as if your experience could be magically deleted.

    Been there, done that. Several times. When I was a shy nerdy boy (and a virgin), twenty years ago, the local slut told my elder sister (this is not the sister I was talking about, she is another):

    “Please keep your brother to me, just in case I can’t land any man. Your brother is going to do a lot of money”

    Of course, my sister was outraged.

  • Blues

    Sigh indeed. These women are now 23, it’s high time they stopped taking shots with rugby players in bars. I don’t see any of them finding a life partner if they stay on their current path – it’s terrible strategy. And they’ve been reading religiously here since the day I started this blog. So much for women taking my advice :-/

    This honestly boggles my mind, i could understand your average SMP woman that has no idea what’s going on, but day 1 HUS readers aware of game, asshole behavior and how thinks really work? have you confronted these women, what do they tell you, what’s their excuse?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      day 1 HUS readers aware of game, asshole behavior and how thinks really work? have you confronted these women, what do they tell you, what’s their excuse?

      They are sheepish – they have no excuse. They resolve to do better soon. In fairness, I’m not talking about promiscuity here – I would not describe these women as riding the carousel. They’re just looking for love in all the wrong places – thinking some alpha meathead is going to become their boyfriend.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    You know, I was wondering last night what the consequences of thinking in capitalistic terms like SMP and SMV have on our perspectives. It would seem to me that it might cause us to see people as commodities. I’m not a socialist or anarchist or anything, but I’m not sure I like thinking of women in terms of the marketplace.

    Incidentally and off-topic, I was also relating the concepts of alpha and beta to Nietzsche’s master and slave moralities. It seems to me that Nietzsche wasn’t just a philosopher but the world’s first self-help author…

  • Tom

    @ Steph…..
    You know that for me promiscuous = loser (male and female).
    I know I’m weird but trust me if I ever tell you a guy sleeps a lot no matter if is only with scientists supermodels I still can’t shake the “eww” feeling of his dick entering so many places I don’t want him anywhere my vajay thank you very much.
    _______________________

    For you maybe, but in the real world…not so much……

    If sex with one person has no eww to it, then how can sex with more than one have the eww factor? Minus disease that is….

  • Tom

    @ Steph again.

    If you examined my dick, it would be impossible to determind if it had been with no one, one person, or many. See how childish your view is?

    LOL @eww factor

    I mean seriously , The same goes for the vejay, well you might know she isnt a virgin, but that is all.

  • Tom

    @ Jesus
    A woman who has previous sexual partners is fine. A woman who has a few one-offs with some jerks and then expects a beta male in a relationship to “work for it” is not. At least not to me. The implicit message is the jerk has higher status because he gets the goods for free, while the beta boyfriend has to earn it.

    _______________________
    First off not all alphas are jerks……..
    Secondly,Whlie she was promiscuous she didnt care what the guy thinks, she just wants laid…Like many guys could care less if a woman got around if he just wants a ONS..he just wants to get laid…
    All that changes when a relationship is a possiblity. She now MUST be sure he is not just in it for the sex. She has to know his intentions are honorable.
    Just as for some guys, they do care what a woman thinks of him and how he “measures” up as a lover when he is going for a relationship. With intentions, methods change.
    I know how the male mind works, I have one, but the view that a woman just gives it away to “jerks” for free and then when ready to settle down makes a guy work for it, is not actually accurate.
    Im not sure why men think that once a woman discovers herself sexually, she will become slave to her sexuality forever. They discount the fact that women too have thoughts and a heart that comes into play. They will not always see that hot alpha as a potential lay while they are in a relationship. They will see him as some hot guy…No different than when I see a hot women..I see a hot woman, not a potential fuck, because I am in a relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    That’s cool, Tom. Not saying they’re bad people. Just not into relationships with women who have slept around with guys like that. Not into relationships at all anymore, actually, since girls hooking up with guys like that is actually the norm. Friendships, sure. Sex, sure. Relationships, no.

    If you’re cool with stuff like that, then all the power to you.

  • imnobody

    Tom, if you are a man, I am Britney Spears. I will write a female equivalent so you can understand it:

    Let’s suppose that a millionaire has a obsessive tendency to marry hot bimbos. He marries a hot bimbo and then she dumps him and collects half his assets, alimony and child support. He does this every year and he is quite quick. She sees a hot bimbo and a month later, he is marrying her. He does not learn. He does this for 20 years so he has 20 exes, he gets broke and with a massive debt. He is old so he has lost his looks.

    (I know this is unrealistic situation but it’s only for you to understand)

    Then, when he is broke, unattractive and with a huge debt, he approaches you (Tom) and starts dating you. After one year dating him, you tell him “where is this relationship is going?”. Then he tells you something like that:

    “You know, I don’t marry every woman I meet. You have to met a very demanding list of conditions: you have to lose twenty pounds, you have to start culturing yourself -because I don’t like dumb women – and wait five years while getting laid with me throughout this period. Then, if you meet those conditions, I will CONSIDER marrying you.”

    How would you feel in these situation knowing the guy is broke with a huge debt and quite unattractive?

    (To make a female equivalent, you have to replace sex by commitment, that is, what men want and is in short supply by what women want and is in short supply. Since the commitment times are longer than the sex times, you have to make times larger).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Tom, if you are a man, I am Britney Spears.

      Another commenter questions Tom’s gender! Notice I said gender, not sex. Tom may be XY, but he clearly does not have a male mindset.

  • Blues

    That’s cool, Tom. Not saying they’re bad people. Just not into relationships with women who have slept around with guys like that. Not into relationships at all anymore, actually, since girls hooking up with guys like that is actually the norm. Friendships, sure. Sex, sure. Relationships, no.

    If you’re cool with stuff like that, then all the power to you.

    That’s a big part of how they avoid/deflect/squirm accountability for their actions, the “but i’m a good person” defense.

  • Blues

    Tom, if you are a man, I am Britney Spears.

    Welcome to the club, several commenters have this very idea.

  • Tom

    First off I am a man.. Older too.
    I can understand why some men are leary of women who divorce them and take their assets. It happens. Just because a woman has had a lot of lovers does not meam she will do that.
    I get your stupid offering of of an example of the slut giving it away , then make a lowly beta like yourself pay for it.
    You dont have enough life exprience, you have not lived long enough to see enough people change their lives.
    Ive said this before, it is a question of character, not numbers.I have always stated that there are women with high numbers who I wouldnt touch. There are women with low numbers I wouldnt touch. If a great woman who has a higher number than average, but she is a great woman, has her life and career in order, is intelligent, funny can hold good conversation, she just might get my attention.
    Give it up on me being a woman, you ar wrong , Susan has seen my facebook account. Now if you are a conspiracy nut, and think I have infiltrated my mans facebook account, then, there is no hope.

  • Aldonza

    @imanobody

    How would you feel in these situation knowing the guy is broke with a huge debt and quite unattractive?

    No worries. I’m an old, used-up slut/crazy cat lady at that point anyway, and grateful for what I can get.

    How about this scenario: He marries one demanding woman, stays married for 5, 10, 20 years, she takes him for a financial ride (partially at his insistence), and he ends up broke, with a huge debt, and carrying a load of bitterness you can see from space. I’d take 20-ex guy without the bitterness.

  • imnobody

    I get your stupid offering of of an example of the slut giving it away , then make a lowly beta like yourself pay for it.

    Don’t get mad, Tom. Insults and ad-hominem attacks only show desperation. And even if you have a high number, we love you :-)

    Susan has seen my facebook account.

    As if this was a proof, I can give you the facebook account of my sister and say it’s me. I can create an account with pictures of a woman and say it’s me. Big deal.

    You dont have enough life exprience, you have not lived long enough to see enough people change their lives.

    What old are you? I am 41. Are you in your fifties?

    If a great woman who has a higher number than average, but she is a great woman, has her life and career in order, is intelligent, funny can hold good conversation,

    Yes, Tom, you always talk about this great woman with a high number who is such a great catch. Don’t worry, Tom, everybody knows it’s you.

  • Tom

    @ Blue
    That’s a big part of how they avoid/deflect/squirm accountability for their actions, the “but i’m a good person” defense.

    __________________________
    So blue just bcause a woman has slept around, that automatically makes them tainted in your eyes?
    Are men who sleep around in the same class?
    You make the assumption that all women slept around for the same reasons AND at the same rate. A number of 30 by age 22 is a lot different than a number of 30 at age 40. Some peoples careers and travel are just not condusive to a relationship at the present. You expect them or others like them who do not want a relationship at the present to always be celibate? A woman who has a couple different lovers a year is hardly a slut in my book…Now in the mind of an insecure man ANY number above anaverage is too high, no matter the circumstances.
    All sluts have fairly high numbers, but not all women with fairly high numbers are sluts.

  • imnobody

    No worries. I’m an old, used-up slut/crazy cat lady at that point anyway, and grateful for what I can get.

    Well, this is exactly how he is going to make feel you. Like you are inferior to the preivous women, because she was so easy with them and you are going to wait five years and meet lots of requirements. As if you were somebody who can’t get anybody so you can be grateful for anything you can get, no matter how shitty is the deal. If you have some self-esteem you will have to reject.

    I only wanted to explain things to Tom. The male perspective. I have no personal interest in this. It has been years since a slut played hard-to-get with me.

    How about this scenario: He marries one demanding woman, stays married for 5, 10, 20 years, she takes him for a financial ride (partially at his insistence), and he ends up broke, with a huge debt, and carrying a load of bitterness you can see from space. I’d take 20-ex guy without the bitterness.

    What about it the bitter guy tells you that he doesn’t believe in marriage and, hence, you will only be one of his harem? Would you accept it?

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    I know a young woman, a recent graduate of Harvard, who really, really wants a smart, good guy. (Her college bf turned into a real jerk two years in.) She accepted a job doing social media marketing at a startup near San Francisco. That is what I call good strategy.

    .
    That’s a good first step. SF is a good place to use as a base. Just tell her to have her pointed southwards, rather than in SF itself. Due to various circumstances, the het male vs. het female ratio is not as favorable as one would think (for a tech area). Also, a lot of the guys in SF itself are in Finance, and the cad quotient is higher. But within an hour south, the ratios are much more favorable to women. Using SF as a base is good too…if you get to know a guy from the Peninsula, it’s quite a simple thing to invite him to spend a Sunday afternoon at the ballpark. Instant easy date!
    .
    She’s doing the most important thing, which is having a strategy (also SayWhaat’s sister deserves props for having one as well). I mean, we guys on this board are always telling guys to learn at least some game, to gain some confidence. For women, the process may be different, but first and foremost it requires a mentality that it’s a priority, and getting yourself into a place where there are favorable male:female ratios is a good first step…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ExNewYorker

      For women, the process may be different, but first and foremost it requires a mentality that it’s a priority, and getting yourself into a place where there are favorable male:female ratios is a good first step…

      One of the things I feel best about is that my own daughter and her close friends have come to understand that 21 is an age at which one must be paying attention and pursuing a good strategy if marriage and motherhood are a goal. They avoided the hookup scene in college and now they are eager to prioritize dating men who have real LTR potential. Time will tell if they succeed. This group does take my advice, and I’m praying I haven’t steered them wrong.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    We get it. You have no problem with a woman who has high numbers. I don’t care.

    I’m not even saying that I have a problem with a woman who’s slept with a higher than average number of men. I’m saying that a girl who sleeps with guys casually is not the kind of woman I want a relationship with. I have no opinion on men who have slept around casually since I’m not gay or bisexual.

    Easy to throw the word insecure around, but the fact is that everybody’s insecure in some sense, since nobody is comfortable in every single situation he finds himself in. I’m not comfortable having a relationship with a girl who would sleep with a guy who isn’t willing or able to commit to her.

    So I’m becoming much like them. I’d be hypocritical to say they’re “bad” for doing what they’ve done if I’m currently doing the same. And I’m not saying they’re bad; I’m saying I don’t want a committed relationship with them. And don’t want a committed relationship at all anymore.

    I’m not sure if you’ve married a woman like that, Tom. If so, and you’re happy, then great for the both of you. But you’re annoying me getting all righteous about my point of view.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m not sure if you’ve married a woman like that, Tom. If so, and you’re happy, then great for the both of you. But you’re annoying me getting all righteous about my point of view.

      This is what puzzles me. Tom is in love with a woman who has apparently had a lot of sexual experience. Fine, no problem. I’m happy for both of them. Why the need to proselytize? Why is it important to Tom that all the other men here would also find her worthy? It appears to be an extreme need for the validation of others – strangers on the internet. That’s just bizarre. Enjoy your life together. Don’t torture yourself by trying to change minds here. It should be clear by now that your POV is unusual for a male. Nothing wrong with that – what’s the problem?

  • Tom

    imnobody
    Yes i am in my 50`s
    I wasnt insulting you, just pointing out how stupid your comparason was..
    It isnt despiration, it is only I am tired of insecure little boy type minds who come here crying that no woman loves me, so I am swearing off women because they are all the same. (hypergamy slut bitches) who then want to claim I, Tom, am a woman.What a joke.
    I happen to see more in a woman than her pussy. I dont want some psycho slut who is crazy. But I do not base her mental state on her man count. I look at her as a person. I doubtI would b into a woman with a number of 40 or above. I would really have to look closely at her.. I dont think i have ever courted on with that high of a number. My current gf number is under 25. and is in her 40`s.
    shewas also married at one time for 10 years. I know that is diffrent than a young woman with the same number. My entire point is not all women of exprience are tainted, at last in this oler mans eyes.

  • Tom

    Jesus,
    one question…why could you not see yourself with a woman of ,say 40 who has a number of 15? seriously, why not? Try and not be general, be specific. what exactly about their experience bothers you?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Did I not just tell you that I don’t care about a woman’s number, that I care if a woman has slept with men casually?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    imnobody,

    If you want to be yourself, go live into a cabin like the Unabomber, become a nun or go to the Tibet to meditate. If you are in a society, you have to compromise and never being yourself.

    VS

    When I am boss in my job, I have a different personality than when I’m with my parents. It is not that I am faking it. It is that I feel this way.

    So are you using a mask /compromising your true self and faking it, or are you not faking it and honestly feeling that way?

    I think I know what you are saying anyway

  • Tom

    jesus
    but why? do you think she will cheat on you? do you think she has a defect in her personality? Is it her sexual knowledge with different men that bothers you about herI mean what about her sleping with someone casually bothers you?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    That she’s willing to give herself to guys cheaply. That she’s willing to fuck someone she doesn’t care about. That in general it means she’s fucked guys she wouldn’t even consider for a relationship.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Tom,

    do you think she will cheat on you? do you think she has a defect in her personality? Is it her sexual knowledge with different men that bothers you about herI mean what about her sleping with someone casually bothers you?

    Who do you think is more likely to cheat, the guy with 8 notches or the guy with 200 notches? who do you think might have defects on his personality? is his sexual knowledge or the casual nature of his sexuality that might bother you?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also Tom,

    If sex is such a non event to a woman that she can give it up to a guy she hardly knows, then yea, I’d say that she’d be more likely to cheat. But even if I believed she wouldn’t cheat, that wouldn’t change my mind.

    Why? I just don’t find girls who do that attractive. Why don’t find that attractive? I don’t know. Why do we have two eyes, two ears, but only one nose? It’s just the way it is….

  • imnobody

    @Yohami

    In fact, it’s both. Sometimes you fake it, sometimes you feel it. Most times it is a combination of two. You have the boss personality (it’s natural) but you are faking that you are interested in sales. (I read one study about a psychological study that proved that your personality is created by the others, but I can’t find the link).

    So some masks are part of you like the skin (in fact, they are you). Other masks you only wear them when you need them, like a dress. Most times you have two: a skin and a dress.

    But, in every time, the combination of both masks has to conform to the rules of the society. We have to adapt to the society and no the other way around.

    Related to this, I remember a woman in a documentary who had been living 20 years in the Tibet. She used to be alone for months and months, during the Tibetan winter. She spent all this time meditating.

    She said that, when you are alone for months, all these masks fall down (because there is no point in wearing them) and you discover “your true self”. I don’t think this expression means the same for her than for me or White Cloud (who had not had this kind of introspective experience). But, when you listened to her, you felt like going to the Tibet and meditate the rest of your life.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Aldoza,

    Replace “creepy” with “clingy”. It’s really the same behavior but within a more relationship construct.

    Clingy yes, thats a major fault.

  • Blues

    @Tom: maybe that’s fine for you but i still don’t buy (and never will) this theory of yours that a high count woman is good for LTR, it goes against any biological instinct in me and it’s perfectly validated by science . The more you talk the more your logic seems inconsistent with a man who dated a lot.

    Now in the mind of an insecure man ANY number above anaverage is too high, no matter the circumstances.

    This specially emphasized by the disguised personal attacks that try to undermine the point of view of the average man.

  • Tom

    Yohami
    Your number of 200+ while impressive, speaks volumes as to why you can not find a suitable mate.

    A casual nature concerning sex is neither bad or good. There are as many reasons people cheat as there are cheaters. Cheating comes from problems within a relationship and character flaws. I would be in Jesus`s corner ig\f I met a woman who had 200 “casual” affairs. But 8? I dont see that as a big red flag at all, he does and I`d like to knowspisificaaly why….Cause she had sex with a guy she isnt interested in a relationship with is not spisific enough.. Does he fear she would cheat on him?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    Dude, I don’t care if it’s specific enough for you or not. Do you want to psychoanalyze me? That’s how I feel, plain and simple. Aren’t I entitled to that opinion?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    You mentioned the number 8. I’ll tell you that I wouldn’t be in a relationship with a woman who had one casual sexual encounter with a guy she wouldn’t consider for a relationship. Maybe I’d consider it if she gave it up before the commitment but was hoping for the commitment. But not if she made that mistake 8 times.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    imnobody,

    Got it. Yeah, agree with that, and there are many layers in between all of these skins from fake to real to ability to etc etc etc. The personality system is needed, and it can be used to show your real self, too, as it can be used to fake.

    In the case of White Im hearing the usual “indulge yourself, force everyone else to like you”

    Instead of “become the best persona you can be and get the skills to deal with many different people” which seems to be too much work.

    Getting silent finding your inner whatever is useful, and should be done often. But I dont think the people embracing this “be you indulge and shame others into liking you” are after their real self.

    They just want external validation – which is an opposite to being “true”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also Tom,

    If the guy she was hoping for a commitment from (or got a commitment from, or just wanted to fuck casually) was a douche bag, then I’d consider that a serious problem.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Tom,

    So whats the number past you consider a promiscuous woman is a lost cause?

  • Tom

    Blue, I dont condone high counts for men or women. Some numbers are too high for even me.
    I guess I think the number threshold or level of tolorance is different from guy to guy.
    Actually since I did “get around” some, I find it hard to judge a woman harshly for doing what I did.
    Believe me there are plenty of blogs where my attitude is the norm.
    Sorry I just dont see most women as tainted from some experience. I do know there are some I would not touch. just TOO out there

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    I’m not judging women harshly. It’s not like I spray Lysol on my furniture after a girl who’s slept around sits on it. I just don’t want to be in a relationship with one.

  • Tom

    Jesus
    I respect your decision even though I dont understand it… Rmember there are a lot of guys who will say or do anything to get in awomans panties… a woman who wants so badly to be in a relationship is easy prey for those types of men. I would hold it against her to badly…

    Yohami, the highest number I would consider?.. Thats a tough one. It would depend on the length of time it occured in. Circumstances come into play. was she a bonified slut doing any swinging dick, or was she more selective?…Even if she passd my other tests, 40 + might be a real red flag to me, but like I said, it depends on other factors too. Now if I were , say 25 and so was she, 15/20 might be my limit, I dont know, that was a long time ago..lol

  • imnobody

    @yohami

    I agree. I see this approach with lots of people today. It is presented like this: “This is a free country. Everybody can do whatever they want so my options are as good as anybody’s. You shouldn’t criticize”.

    But freedom goes both ways:

    1) X is free to act whatever they like (as long as he doesn’t break the law)
    2) But everybody else is free to criticize X or take any kind of attitude towards them (for example, not marrying X, not having X as a friend, not considering X as a good person, disliking X, telling X is immoral and so on and so forth).

    What a lot of people want is to have the freedom of doing anything but not giving others the same freedom when it concerns to them. They want 1) without 2). It’s eating your cake and having it too.

    I prefer the old-fashioned attitude, where, as you say, people try to “become the best persona you can be”. This was the official ideology when I was a kid. Now, there is only self-indulgence and laziness.

    “Be yourself” means “don’t take efforts to self-improve yourself and still claim the moral high ground and all the privileges of being good”. Having all the benefits of the self-improvement person without working for them. Eating your cake and having it too.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Tom,

    I don’t hold it against them. I just don’t respect them for their decisions.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    When I got into the country I lived, I was amazed that women rejected me in a polite manner as if they didn’t want to hurt me, as if they wanted to disguise the rejection so you feel less bad. This was new for me. But it can be done

    That is Latin upbringing. You should reject a guy in the most polite soft possible way, based on the idea that if he found you attractive he has good taste ;). So I guess for us SMP is about numbers not the SMP of the interested one. So a 1 that likes you is just another one that sees your beauty, independently of he is has a shot or not. I think that is probably the difference we consider that beauty is attractive to everyone in the SMP not just for the guys in the same league so is not an attack in our own value, but just another one that noticed.

    For you maybe, but in the real world…not so much……
    If sex with one person has no eww to it, then how can sex with more than one have the eww factor? Minus disease that is….

    I wonder what the heck are you trying to imply. First the most partners you have the more chances of caught a disease. Second if you really think that people are akin to disposable cups and 1 or 100 are the same so it doesn’t matter then you are not someone I would like to spent any time being plastic cup number 101. Is that clear, Tammy.

    If you examined my dick, it would be impossible to determind if it had been with no one, one person, or many. See how childish your view is?

    What happens in the dick, reflects in the man. Again given that I spent a lot of time dealing with sluts, only a very skilled one doesn’t show his/her true colors. So yeah you can actually tell them apart. I personally can tell a manslut only by seeing him walking. So it might be childlish but very very effective.

    Yes, Tom, you always talk about this great woman with a high number who is such a great catch. Don’t worry, Tom, everybody knows it’s you.

    Heh I could heart you 100 for this. :)
    Welcome to the Tom is a woman’s club. An old slut that can’t conceive the idea that she won’t have the power to choose at will, if she ever leaves her current partner or if she is thinking on leaving him and is threading waters and wants to think that all the men that say no to her requests of commitment were anomalies. We probably are just feeding into her fears and she of course needs to probe us wrong by calling us inexperienced and childlish.

    She said that, when you are alone for months, all these masks fall down (because there is no point in wearing them) and you discover “your true self”. I don’t think this expression means the same for her than for me or White Cloud (who had not had this kind of introspective experience). But, when you listened to her, you felt like going to the Tibet and meditate the rest of your life.

    Meditation is a great source of “empowerment” if only feminists would had encouraged self awareness instead of slutiness…things would be better for everyone. *le sigh*

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHA