The Fractured Feminist Position on Slut Walks

July 23, 2011

Rebecca Traister, a longtime feminist and staunch supporter of sex-positive feminism, has a piece coming out tomorrow in the New York Times Sunday Magazine: Ladies, We Have a Problem. In it she addresses the truly cringeworthy aspect of the Slut Walk phenomenon – that is, the fact that a bunch of women parading around dressed as sluts harms the feminist cause.

Traister begins by saying “At a moment when questions of sex and power, blame and credibility, and gender and justice are so ubiquitous and so urgent, I have mostly felt irritation that stripping down to skivvies and calling ourselves sluts is passing for keen retort.”

Traister is a smart woman – why is she having an aha moment now, when in fact, feminists have been stripping down to skivvies and proudly calling themselves sluts for years? SlutWalking is just the latest opportunity for women committed to a promiscuous lifestyle to proudly display their sexuality, a “F you!” in the face of convention. There’s much more going on here than a statement that no one deserves to be raped. Indeed, we’re being asked to withhold judgment of sluthood itself:

“I understand that SlutWalkers want to drain the s-word of its misogynistic venom and correct the idea it conveys: that a woman who takes a variety of sexual partners or who presents herself in an alluring way is somehow morally bankrupt and asking to be hit on, assaulted or raped.

…To object to these ugly characterizations is right and righteous. But to do so while dressed in what look like sexy stewardess Halloween costumes seems less like victory than capitulation (linguistic and sartorial) to what society already expects of its young women.”

The whole point of proud sluthood is that women have the right to advertise and enjoy their sexuality without being judged (or apparently even approached!). That’s a lot to ask, as it is natural for human beings to judge the behavior of fellow citizens according to their perception of what is good for society. The social contract is guarded by the majority to preserve civilization.

In fact, sluts are asking for more than that. Sluts are free to have sex with anyone they wish – ain’t nobody stopping ‘em. We don’t need to know about their sex lives – indeed, we’d rather not. While many may disapprove of their choices, ignorance is bliss, and no one is hunting sluts to hold them up for public ridicule. If anything, it’s chaste women who endure shame in our culture.

The truth is, promiscuous feminists want more than total sexual freedom. They want their choices to be celebrated, and for it to be politically unfeasible for anyone to question their morality. They wish to silence those who would call their lifestyles morally bankrupt (or even think it). They wish to shame men for imposing a sexual double standard, or even for simply preferring to partner with women of limited sexual experience.

“Scantily clad marching seems weirdly blind to the race, class and body-image issues that usually (rightly) obsess young feminists.”

I haven’t heard a word about race and class from SlutWalkers. In fact, those issues don’t appear to be a priority in the church of the sex-positive congregation. Body image, though? That’s a different story. Fat-shaming has become a movement of its own among the sex pozzies. Would it be indelicate of me to call your attention to the photo above, by a photographer for the nation’s most liberal newspaper? It’s representative of Slut Walk photos in general, in my experience.

If moral bankruptcy is defined as judging slutty behavior, coupled with judging obesity in women, then what feminists are arguing for is the right for every woman, regardless of her physical attributes, to get laid by the partner of her choice. This removes all agency from men, who are treated as sex machines who should be grateful for whatever they can get.  Oh how they will be judged if they recoil at the sight of a “Proud SLUT!”

Traister believes that “donning bustiers” to “grapple with issues of sexual power”  amounts to a lack of precision and self-protection, but she believes in the struggle, and she is eager to reassure her feminist sisters that she has not abandoned the cause.

“I found myself again wishing that the young women doing the difficult work of reappropriation were more nuanced in how they made their grabs at authority, that they were better at anticipating and deflecting the resulting pile-on. But I also wondered if, perhaps, this worry makes me the Toronto cop who thought women should protect themselves by not dressing like sluts… there is still no way for women to tell stories of sexual injustice that allows them to bypass character assassination.”

The problem, as Traister herself uncomfortably senses, is that proudly proclaiming one’s sluthood does lead a vast majority of observers to question the slut’s character, and trading in their black bras for polo shirts wouldn’t change that. Such a notion is unthinkable – it’s the Girls Gone Wild “Sex as empowerrrrrrment” shtick that is sex-positive feminism. The bared midriff, the revealed nipple, and the angrily scrawled Sharpie tats are the epaulets of the uniform. Without the salacious reveals, we’re left with an army of indistinguishable BMI-challenged women.

“Social progress is imperfect, full of half-truths and sloppy misrepresentations…Fighting for power is a complicated, messy process, especially for complicated, messy human beings. Often, the best we can hope for is that our efforts draw a spotlight.

Which, I guess, is enough to make SlutWalkers of us all.”

By this standard, the half-truths and sloppy misrepresentations of sex-positive feminism are a success. Their efforts have drawn a spotlight. That doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to look away.

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  • tito

    @Susan

    “The truth is, promiscuous feminists want more than total sexual freedom. They want their choices to be celebrated, and for it to be politically unfeasible for anyone to question their morality.”

    that pretty much says it all. this they consider ‘freedom.’ let’s ot forget to point out the (pseudo)rebellious nature of all this. the status-quo-as-revolution theme is at work here. basically, what they are doing is deemed ‘cool’ by the entertainment media and by our current culture. remind any participant of this silliness in ten years (when it is no longer cool) and they will develop a case of amnesia. by then they will be on to other new and ‘cool’ things.

    solutions?

  • Johnny Milfquest

    The word “feminist” means lots of different things to lots of different people.

    For example, I wonder what a feminist like dirtywhiteboi would make of the Slut Walks?

    Somehow, I don’t think she’d approve.

  • http://lgfonevolution.blogspot.com Mats

    As I read somewhere, the purpose of slut walks was not to stop rapes but the prevent men from criticizing sluts.

    They don’t want to be accountable. That’s it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As I read somewhere, the purpose of slut walks was not to stop rapes but the prevent men from criticizing sluts.

      It’s the criticism of non-slutty women that is really threatening. As long as there are women who reject sluthood, men will have a choice. Sex-positive feminism aims to create a society where men do not have the ability to choose. They’ll be stuck with highly sexually experienced and unattractive women.

      Most men here at HUS say they love sluts – but they go into the slut pile, not the relationship pile.

  • demirogue

    Problem facing them is when they age out they can’t get out. Not so much fun being liberated women anymore when they look in the mirror and the aging shell is often being overlooked not only in the sexual market but in general society as well.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Most men here at HUS say they love sluts – but they go into the slut pile, not the relationship pile.

    Well, back-in-the-day when I was open to the idea of committed relationships, I never asked about a woman’s sexual history.

    It wasn’t even a consideration for me. If I was physically attracted to her then I was more interested in how she treated me on a day-to-day basis.

    Now that I’ve given up on the idea of being in a relationship, I’m noticing a distinct shortage of sluts. Accusations of slut-hood are still common, but real bona fide (boner fide?) sluts are not as numerous as I would like them to be.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Badger wrote:

    “How about this, from a self-described Maoist (wtf) […]”

    Yes, Maoists in the anglosphere aren’t very sex-positive. The Maoist Internationalist Movement party line is that all sex is rape under imperialism.

    To say that those guys “don’t get out much” would be an understatement.

  • Blues

    Here’s an interesting concept, Obsidian proposed that (radical) feminism (and therefore it’s mentality and everything that derives from it) is basically an evolved form of Bitch Shield and personally the more i think about it the more sense it makes.

    However after some more thought, IMHO the (huge) flaw in that strategy is that unlike the bitch shield there is no biologically valid reason to use it because it’s employed by women that to begin with don’t have a SMV to merit such strategy as any pic from the Slutwalks have showed. The Bitch Shield is a biological tool for extremely attractive women to deflect unworthy suitors, a woman that doesn’t have SMV to merit the use of such tool is akin to a low SMV man AKA Beta using asshole tactics, it comes off as bitterness and resentment and treated as such by women.

    So what happens now? either feminism starts to die or men take one of 2 routes, game/going alpha or leave the market (aka going ghost or MGTOW). There is no other alternative and if 2 year old post is any indication those without game (which BTW are the majority of men) rather take the option of ghosting that deal with the kind of women feminism spawns.

  • David

    “Among all the dichotomies of our times—doves and hawks, liberals and conservatives, elites and masses—there is one that seems especially crucial: the distinction between those who focus and those who blur. When people blur, it is usually either because they are not capable of focusing or because a sharp picture of the issues would make their case collapse. Currently the blurrers are riding high. Try getting people to focus on precisely what they mean by overpopulation, urban sprawl or social justice and you are only likely to see the blur become blurrier. Even terms that were once sharply focused, like racism, discrimination or a level playing field are getting fuzzier and fuzzier.” Thomas Sowell, “Lies, Damned Lies and Blurs,” Forbes, 31 May, 1999.

    Susan focuses. Rebecca Traister and the sluts and slut-walkers blur. No doubt some of them will try to shame Susan for focusing. She deserves our thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @David
      Thanks for the support!

      When people blur, it is usually either because they are not capable of focusing or because a sharp picture of the issues would make their case collapse.

      Rebecca Traister is way too smart to be guilty of the former. She wrote a critically acclaimed book about the 2008 election, yet here her argument is indeed blurry. I can’t imagine how this doesn’t rankle her – she has to know something is off – way off.

      The blur is produced by the 60 mph spinning of the hamster wheel.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    How about this, from a self-described Maoist (wtf):

    “Sexual Predator Hugo Schwyzer is Leading SlutWalk LA.”

    http://maoistrebelnews.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/sexual-predator-is-leading-slutwalk-la-hugo-schwyzer/

    It is funny to watch the feminist-leftist establishment crumble over itself. Check out the real man shaming!

    “Now this Slut Walk idiocy has spilled out form Canada into the United States (yes we got you with this like we did with Justin Bieber). Its begun in LA where it is being organized by Hugo Schwyzer. Who is he? Well he’s admitted to using his female students for sex. Basically he’s a sexual predator who’s leading naive women in a charge to be proud of being sluts. So basically for him, this whole thing is like one big interview for potential victims.

    He abuses his position in a power structure to get sex. What a fucking pathetic little man. He goes after them because a grown woman with life experience can see through his lies to his pervy ways. The guy is basically a sexual predator in charge barely legal teens.

    He goes after them because he can’t handle a real woman. He’s a horrible little man. To hell with you Hugo Schwyzer!”

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    I think it’s important to remember the origin of the Slutwalks: a Toronto police officer said women shouldn’t dress like sluts because then men will rape them. The point of a slutwalk is that sluts don’t deserve to be raped (and, incidentally, that they also don’t deserve to be bullied or harassed for being sluts). This makes sense, because according to several studies rape and clothing choice bear no relation to each other, and because one notices that no one ever says guys should stop taking their shirts off in public lest a gay man attempt to assrape them.

    Also, as (I’m pretty sure) the only person who has actually been to a Slutwalk here, I would like to point out that most Slutwalkers aren’t dressed sluttily. The media takes pictures of the sluttily dressed ones because “OMG NEKKID LADIES.”

    As a sex-positive feminist, I want people to stop calling promiscuity morally bankrupt. I also want people to stop calling abstinence morally bankrupt, or monogamy morally bankrupt, or any other sexual choice. Actually, I kind of think the people who believe the end-all and be-all of morality is what a person does with her own personal vagina are morally bankrupt. :/

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    David, quoting Sowell about focus vs fuzziness….

    People who speak/write fuzzily are very often those who are highly educated (in terms of # years of seat time) but are lacking in creativity and intellectual independence and also are usually not really all that bright. When they see any situation they feel urgently impelled to fit it into one of the categories they learned in college, with associated buzzwords.

    This is basically the philosophical fallacy of reification, treating abstractions as concretes.

  • David

    @david foster

    When they see any situation they feel urgently impelled to fit it into one of the categories they learned in college, with associated buzzwords.

    Sowell would agree. Here’s the last sentence of the article I quoted:

    “Unfortunately, our education system does not spend much time teaching students to focus. Instead, our schools and colleges have themselves become indoctrination centers for some of the more fashionable blurs.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Instead, our schools and colleges have themselves become indoctrination centers for some of the more fashionable blurs.”

      Please see Women’s Studies for the worst of this.

  • Lavazza

    ozymandias: “Actually, I kind of think the people who believe the end-all and be-all of morality is what a person does with her own personal vagina are morally bankrupt. :/”

    Well, anybody’s entitled to their opinion, even opinions you do not like. You should be thankful that people who are of a different opinion than you express them, so that you can avoid them, the same way people of different opinion are grateful that slut marchers are showing who they are, so that they can avoid them.

    But yo are making straw men arguments, most people have a more nuanced opinion than you ascribe them. What a woman does with her vagina does not tell everything about her, but i DOES tell SOMETHING about her.

  • demirogue

    As a sex-positive feminist, I want people to stop calling promiscuity morally bankrupt.

    No, as a sex positive feminists you want to instill upon others your views and if they don’t agree, you think they have an issue. But the world isn’t going to adhere to your views and if women suffer because Cosmo and you pressure them to conform and they lose out, they just might see who the culprits are and that’s you. And your movement goes where then?

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    I guess those feminist knuckleheads shouldn’t complain about sexual objectification, then. They seem to love doing it themselves.

    Also, lumping flirting together with assault and rape? So they want to dress alluringly, but they don’t want guys to say anything or look or come up to them or anything. Nonsense like this is why I hate feminism.

    If a bunch of us men got together to celebrate pumping and dumping, as well as treating women as little more than the sex objects they want to be (but not assaulting or raping them), the howls of outrage from the feminist slime molds that infest every corner of our culture would deafen the whole country.

    If you’re a carousel rider, I can’t trust you. You’re not bringing anything else to the table anyway.

  • whiteboykrispy

    “This removes all agency from men, who are treated as sex machines who should be grateful for whatever they can get.”

    This gets down to the very root of it. The entitlement complex that some of these broads seem to have is ridiculous. “I can do whatever I want, behave any way I want, no one is allowed to judge me, and I deserve the best.” Yeah right, princess.

    If you flip it to men, it’s like some tub of lard basement dwelling WoW junkie saying he can live the way he does without consequences and still deserve a model as a wife-

    Any remotely sensible person would laugh him out of the room.

    But, these feminist entitlement arguments are not only accepted, they’re lauded.

  • Clarence

    Ozymandias:

    No, the Toronto police officer said it would be safer for women to not dress like sluts during a presentation at a college about how to avoid sexual assault. I think the jury is still out on clothing choices being totally harmless with regards to sexual assault: I started checking into advertising research for clothing firms, but got busy and never followed up on it. There’s no doubt that clothing sends messages, both cultural and visual – and the more skin the more likely someone male or female will notice you in a sexual manner. Still, that doesn’t mean a rapist thinks that way, though I’m willing to bet at least some do.

    I do agree with you that one should never judge someone’s character on sex per-se. Context is always key to getting to know someone. I like you as a person, even though you are a self-proclaimed little slut. Being a “slut” doesn’t preclude one from having many admirable qualities.
    Anyway, as I’ve said on your blog, this blog, NSWATM I do have some intellectual respect for some of sex positive feminism. The slutwalks, however, aren’t merely about “taking back the day”, but are also tied in with what I regard as toxic commands to men about OUR sexuality.

    Demirogue:
    Ozy is 19 or at the most 20. Please don’t tell her what “her” movement is all about. She shares some, but not all, of the views of a Jocelyn Friedman.

  • Sex-negative Conservative!

    As a sex-positive feminist, I want people to stop calling promiscuity morally bankrupt. I also want people to stop calling abstinence morally bankrupt, or monogamy morally bankrupt, or any other sexual choice. Actually, I kind of think the people who believe the end-all and be-all of morality is what a person does with her own personal vagina are morally bankrupt.

    That is because as a “sex-positive” (oh how ironic that you useful idiots call it that, when what you are really advocating is sexual behavior that has so many negative consequences both personally and for society at large…) feminist, you support what is at it’s core, cultural marxism…and the goal of cultural marxism has always been about destroying the nuclear family as the foundation of civil society.

    You don’t want anyone to judge how you use your vagina! Great!

    Perhaps you’d do well to remember that should you ever find yourself in a relationship with a man you are in love with, and a younger, hotter, tighter “sex-positive” woman comes along and decides to use her vagina to seduce him away from you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As a sex-positive feminist, I want people to stop calling promiscuity morally bankrupt.

      I’ve never heard the term morally bankrupt used by anyone in criticizing promiscuity. Personally, I think it’s OK if a woman has no desire to marry or have children, strategically speaking. I generally don’t entertain moral questions here. I do, however, acknowledge that promiscuity may be detrimental to society at large, and I am interested in exploring that.

  • Jonny

    What about another feminist meme that sex equals rape? Regardless whether feminists want society accepted free sex, it is still nonconsensual rape. Please summarize their contradictory positions.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    Well, from my perspective, I’ve passed on a 9 because I saw her sleep her way through the gym I go to. I hope she enjoyed herself, but my concern over STDs kept me from going for her. I don’t judge her for doing it, but I’m not sticking anything of mine into her.

  • http://www.indyguy77.blogspot.com Michael Maier

    Michael of Charlotte: How in the world is that NOT a judgement?

  • http://aredpillforadyke.blogspot.com/ Guestopher

    I went to a slut walk. At least three of the speakers were socialists who rambled on and on about the ownership of women’s bodies and the fall of capitalism because they had not practiced their speeches. A majority of the women were dressed in everyday clothing with anti-sexual assault buttons and slogans on their clothing and bags. There were more chunky young women than I’d like (seriously people, just keep the weight off until your early 30’s), but I’d say it was very diverse in terms of age, attractiveness, race and there were even a few men (alphas and betas).

    I don’t think that women are asking for physical or sexual assault by looking a certain way and I don’t think that people should get shorter prison sentences for assaulting slutty or slutty looking women. I’d also like many more nudity friendly public spaces :). I understand that I’m going to fight with slut walkers on everything else. For example, I do believe that you can judge someone’s character based on the number of sexual partners they’ve had. Am I going to make judgments about them being more likely to rob a bank or not floss? No. Am I going to make judgments about how likely they are to cheat in a monogamous relationship? Yes.

    Demirogue, that’s not what sex positive feminism is. To me it’s about having a healthy relationship with your own sexuality. If I’m not sleeping with you then I don’t care so much about your sexuality.

  • Clarence

    MM:

    Maybe a judgment of personal RISK, but not necessarily a judgment of her as a person or potential (non-sexual) friend.

  • http://ifconfig.blogspot.com Fred Woodbridge

    When building a worldview, it’s most important what the substrate substance on which it’s built. Assume or acquire the wrong foundational beliefs and it’s only a matter of time before even the most grandiose mansion crumbles.
    In “ye olden times,” before western society’s construction of elaborate security buffers and intricate safety netting, the time interval between ‘construction’ and ‘destruction’ was so much shorter, which was in many respects a good thing. Now, it is possible to grow quite old living comfortably in the Delusion Mansion, ignoring the cracking foundations.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Ozymandias
    Question
    Where do you think morality came from? You think someone woke up one day at the dawn of times and decided, well you know we should regulate sex just because? There is a reason ALL cultures regulate sexual behaviour, heck even some primates regulate it.
    Even sex-pozzies beleive that certain behaviors shouldn’t be allowed no matter how much a person desires like for example adults having sex with minors? Why do your own standards of sex, that you most know at this point are not worldwide, have to be accepted as good and truth while any other you disagree with are to be taken as bad and hurtful? Do you have anything to back it up aside from personal likings?

  • tito

    @Susan

    “As long as there are women who reject sluthood, men will have a choice. Sex-positive feminism aims to create a society where men do not have the ability to choose. They’ll be stuck with highly sexually experienced and unattractive women.”

    so much for freeddom of choice, lol!

    “Most men here at HUS say they love sluts – but they go into the slut pile, not the relationship pile.”

    they have to say that. it is cool.

  • detinennui32

    Feminism’s Rules:

    1. Men must accept everything women say at face value. You are not allowed to gauge anything they say against what they do. You are not allowed to point out any inconsistencies between their words and actions.

    2. Women are allowed to do anything they want, with whomever they want, when they want, and where they want. You are not allowed to judge women for any of this.

    3. Women are entitled to the sex partners they want, despite their unattractive appearances or unappealing, repellent personalities. They are entitled to let themselves become unattractive, but they are still entitled to whatever they want.

    4. A woman who racks up a high partner count is “free” and “exploring her sexuality”. (And who do you think you are judging her for it, you repressed, pinch faced sonofabitch?? You can’t get laid anyway. Get back in mommy’s basement, loser!)

    A man who does the same is a cad, a heel, and a rapist (unless of course he’s really good looking, in which case she will get in line for her turn).

    5. An unattractive beta man who asks a woman for a date is a creep, a loser, a sexual harasser and a rapist. An attractive alpha man who asks a woman for a date is assertive and bold.

  • Matt C

    It’s the criticism of non-slutty women that is really threatening. As long as there are women who reject sluthood, men will have a choice. Sex-positive feminism aims to create a society where men do not have the ability to choose. They’ll be stuck with highly sexually experienced and unattractive women.

    Men will still have a choice, albeit a sad one. If sex-positive feminists have their day, men will opt out of the dating market completely and just use porn and sex-dolls to get their fix.

    The trend seems to already be moving that way already: http://aleknovy.com/2010/01/17/why-men-are-increasingly-prefering-videos-games-over-dating-mating-and-courtship/.

    Women are now having an increasingly difficult time competing with dolls. DOLLS! For God-sakes!

  • Matt C

    Also, link is from Blues on a previous comment thread.

  • Blues

    Men will still have a choice, albeit a sad one. If sex-positive feminists have their day, men will opt out of the dating market completely and just use porn and sex-dolls to get their fix.

    The trend seems to already be moving that way already: http://aleknovy.com/2010/01/17/why-men-are-increasingly-prefering-videos-games-over-dating-mating-and-courtship/.

    Women are now having an increasingly difficult time competing with dolls. DOLLS! For God-sakes!

    The trend seems to be much older than that, Captain Capitalism has post from 2008 where he explains seeing the trend already among his acquaintances back then.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Women are now having an increasingly difficult time competing with dolls. DOLLS! For God-sakes!

    I keep saying the moment Japanese have realistic looking robots, our species is dooomed! Given that leaving a partner that is less than perfect is the new “cool”, for women do you think having the chance to program a partner to be perfect would be overlooked? I mean of course men with female sex bots would be considered sexual deviants, losers and creeps, but women with male sex dolls are just “empowering” themselves creating the partner they deserve because real men won’t “man up!” so yeah we are doomed.
    Of course at that point maybe women will think “Opps maybe we did over did the feminist thing a tad” but God only knows if it will be in time.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Re feminism and equity / double standards

    “The truth is, promiscuous feminists want more than total sexual freedom [ FOR WOMEN ]. They want their choices to be celebrated, and for it to be politically unfeasible for anyone to question their morality.”

    But somehow they leave men out of the equation. I have not seen a feminist stating that men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for it. Or they would be doing alpha / pimp / even PUA walks and celebrating Game.

    Terrific post again, Susan

  • Matt C

    I keep saying the moment Japanese have realistic looking robots, our species is dooomed! Given that leaving a partner that is less than perfect is the new “cool”, for women do you think having the chance to program a partner to be perfect would be overlooked? I mean of course men with female sex bots would be considered sexual deviants, losers and creeps, but women with male sex dolls are just “empowering” themselves creating the partner they deserve because real men won’t “man up!” so yeah we are doomed.
    Of course at that point maybe women will think “Opps maybe we did over did the feminist thing a tad” but God only knows if it will be in time.

    Well, the feistier, fatter and sluttier women in the modern world get, the more men will look elsewhere to get satisfaction. I swear, at my college, a disproportionately large amount of women have this feisty, unforgiving attitude. I have met quite a few nice girls though, thankfully. I am definitely going to keep my expectations simple: nice, pretty and smiles a lot.

    Imagine if the robots were affordable, looked like gorgeous models, could cook, clean and they agreed with everything the guy said. I would buy one.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    demirogue: Of course I want people to share my views! It’s just that my view is not “SLUTHOOD FOR EVERYONE WOO!” but the rather more nuanced “people should make the sexual choices that are right for them, and other people should respect them for making those choices.”

    Also, Cosmo and the Slutwalkers… don’t really agree with each other. Like, at all.

    Clarence: Is there actual evidence (beyond “it’s just common sense!”) about rape and clothing one way or the other? I read that 4.4% of rapes were proceeded by provocative behavior on the part of the victim (as compared to 22% of murders) but couldn’t find the original study, which makes me think it’s apocryphal. I’d be interested to find out if there’s actual data.

    Steph: “It has always happened this way” =/= “it’s right.” Rape, murder and war are also cross-cultural traits that have existed in animals too; doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work to reduce them. Obviously, slut shaming is not at the level of evil that rape or murder is, but I still think it’s wrong.

    I’ll bite. One of my core moral values is bodily autonomy: every person has the right to do whatever they want to their own body, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else, and no one else should condemn them for it. From a rights perspective, the body is the one thing that belongs to you– someone can take away your wealth or property, but your body is always yours. In a way, it is the source of all freedoms. Therefore, your right of control over it should be inviolate and unquestioned.

    Detinennui: No one is entitled to a sexual partner; if you don’t make yourself attractive, you are not going to get laid or get in a relationship. Men with high partner counts are exactly as morally bankrupt as women with low partner counts.

    Women are allowed to do anything they want, with whomever they want, when they want, and where they want. You are not allowed to judge women for any of this.

    Yes, and so are men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ozy

      “people should respect them for making those choices”

      This is where the problem lies. I respect your right to choose whatever you wish for yourself. I have no wish to police your sexuality. You are free to do as you please. You want more though – you want my respect for the choices you make. You are not entitled to that. I will judge a person’s character based on their actions, and it is right that I should do so.I reserve the right to judge promiscuity as harmful to society according to my
      values.

      I can respect your right to choose what I perceive to
      be harmful behaviors an still disrespect your choice.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Ozy,

    Yes, and so are men.

    wrong… I already stabbed this zombie to death but it keeps coming

    If you pay attention to what men are saying about this, you´ll find a different story

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Yohami: Men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for their sexual choices– from abstinence to sluthood. There. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ozy

      And now respect is not sufficient, you want us to celebrate your
      choices! Regardless of my own moral code, I’m not a good person if I don’t celebrate your views? I am ethically bound to celebrate polyamory, urine play or anything else you deem OK.

      Do you see how you are dictating what I should think? Do you see how that is oppression?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Ozy,

    Men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for their sexual choices– from abstinence to sluthood. There.

    yeepeee

  • Matt C

    Yohami: Men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for their sexual choices– from abstinence to sluthood. There. :)

    Before that, we should solve that nasty problem of how it is significantly more difficult for men to get laid than women.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt,

    Thats more or less the point.

  • Matt C

    Ozy,
    Yohami: Men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for their sexual choices– from abstinence to sluthood. There. :)

    Now I got a question. Does this mean that men should be “sexually free” to pay for prostitutes? There are a lot of men out there into prostitution and the legalization of them are necessary if you want men to have “total sexual freedom”.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt C,

    Paying for prostitutes aint freedom. Freedom / celebration would be if feminism cheered men for approaching / talking to women while expressing sexual interest. Or cheered when men expressed desire to have sex with women, etc.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    “Paying for prostitutes aint freedom. Freedom / celebration would be if feminism cheered men for approaching / talking to women while expressing sexual interest. Or cheered when men expressed desire to have sex with women, etc.”

    Preach, Yohami, Preach….

  • Stingray

    “I found myself again wishing that the young women doing the difficult work of reappropriation were more nuanced in how they made their grabs at authority, that they were better at anticipating and deflecting the resulting pile-on. But I also wondered if, perhaps, this worry makes me the Toronto cop who thought women should protect themselves by not dressing like sluts… there is still no way for women to tell stories of sexual injustice that allows them to bypass character assassination.”

    Is she not describing a woman being feminine here? I thought feminist didn’t care for feminine women? Seems the story may change a bit when it helps them get what they want.

    BTW, isn’t that a big reason women learned to be feminine in the first place?

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Matt C: I support the complete legalization of sex work, yeah. As do almost all sex-positive feminists (that was actually one of the original divisions between sex-positive and radical feminism, in addition to BDSM and pornography).

    Yohami: Woo for men approaching (as long as they do it in a non-creepy manner, which women who approach ALSO have to do)! Yay for men being sexually attracted to women! Actually, three cheers for men being sexually attracted to women, without that I would never get laid.

  • detinennui32

    Women are allowed to do anything they want, with whomever they want, when they want, and where they want. You are not allowed to judge women for any of this.

    Ozy: “Yes, and so are men.”

    EPIC FAIL.

    Yeah, ummm, Ozy: The only problem with this is that it is much, much easier for women to get sex than it is for men.

    So, uhhh, your theory fails. Full stop.

  • Hepatitus

    In the same New York Times article Traister also complains:

    “A young woman who pressed rape charges against two New York City police officers could not be believed, in part, because she was drunk.”

    So Traister and some feminists don’t just want to make the world safe for women to dress revealingly – they also want to make it safe for women to get drunk.

    I don’t know whether dressing provocatively increases the risk for sexual assault, but getting drunk does. And it also raises the risks for every kind of nonsexual assault and accident.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hepatitus

      Good point about alcohol and risky behaviors. Risky behaviors tend to clump, as risk-seeking is a hard-wired personality trait.

  • http://www.twitter.com/MOTRenaissance Adonis

    Feminist know they are bring civilization to its knees… & will still fin a way to fault men for their BS…

    @YOHAMI very good points…

    This is too funny…

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    detinennui: I must say, I am not entirely sure how the “discourage women from having lots of sex” plan would solve the “it is more difficult for men to get laid” problem.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I must say, I am not entirely sure how the “discourage women from having lots of sex” plan would solve the “it is more difficult for men to get laid” problem.

    Not you, but when “women” go out there to have lots of sex, they pick the stronger and more attractive male in the room, which happens to be always the same male, and also the alpha, and probably a jerk, leaving every other guy in the room sad and alone.

    If women werent allowed to have random fun sex but had to settle for relationships, they would screen more and deeper and probably discard the alpha / jerk for his unattainability, while the betas / not so solicited guys would have traits that were better suited for long time.

    SO, betas win big by forcing marriage, delaying sex, long courtship, etc. More and more women are slutting it up, but it only means the majority of men get LESS sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If women werent allowed to have random fun sex but had to settle for relationships, they would screen more and deeper and probably discard the alpha / jerk for his unattainability, while the betas / not so solicited guys would have traits that were better suited for long time.

      SO, betas win big by forcing marriage, delaying sex, long courtship, etc. More and more women are slutting it up, but it only means the majority of men get LESS sex.

      Best nutshell explanation I’ve heard. Women are increasingly using only short-term mating strategies. And long-term mating is declining as a result.

  • Esau

    Ozymandias, at 3:59pm: “Men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for their sexual choices”

    Ozymandias, at 4:52pm: “Woo for men approaching (as long as they do it in a non-creepy manner”

    So, men should be celebrated for their choices, unless they happen to choose to do something that some woman subjectively finds “creepy”? Thus, men’s sexual behavior should be completely bounded by what women do and don’t pronounce to be acceptable. If that’s your idea of “total freedom” then I think you need to study more geometry.

    Face it: as long as you elevate “Don’t be creepy” to being the Highest Commandment for men to follow, while the definition of what is and is not “creepy” is defined entirely by women’s subjective feelings, then you’re essentially arguing for a female dictatorship (“gynocracy”?). As we all know from watching SNL, the most reliable instruction for not being creepy, for men, is “Be handsome; be attractive; don’t be unattractive.” By waving the “Don’t be creepy” banner over again, you’re playing right into the stereotype that an important part of the feminist agenda is just to make unattractive men go away once and for all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m seriously thinking of banning the word creepy from this blog. It’s just such a transparent low blow. Here are some things that I have found creepy in the mating/dating arena:

      1. The father of the family I babysat for grabbing me during the car ride home. Alpha.
      2. The recruiter for my first job asking me to continue the interview over drinks at the Playboy Club. Alpha.
      3. My 6th grade art teacher telling me I was going to be a “firecracker” when I reached puberty. Alpha.
      4. My 9th grade algebra teacher telling me he was only really hard on me because he had a “special feeling” about me. Alpha.
      5. My Sr. VP at Company X telling me “Your tits look great in that silk blouse.” Alpha.

      Creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention. A man whose attention is unwanted is not creepy, just out of luck.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Esau,

    Yeah, good catch. Also in defense of “creepy”, feminist are fighting to remove the shame on fat women. They should also defend creepy men and tell women they should be banging those.

    In other words… more of the same.

  • http://ibnlive.in.com/news/besharmi-morcha-aka-slutwalk-launches-website/163376-19.html Slut Walker

    Its taken off. I read online that India is having a Slut Walk this month but they are calling it something else more contextual to their culture. I highly doubt anyone will be dressed skimpy by our standards, since their idea of skimpy is our idea of conservative or traditional.

    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/besharmi-morcha-aka-slutwalk-launches-website/163376-19.html

  • Andy

    Can I be free and tell every fat fucking swamp beast of a lard tub woman that she should lose some weight? That bird in the picture would be ok if she did lose some girth, and maybe had a shave.

  • DaveD

    ozymandias : “I think it’s important to remember the origin of the Slutwalks: a Toronto police officer said women shouldn’t dress like sluts because then men will rape them. The point of a slutwalk is that sluts don’t deserve to be raped (and, incidentally, that they also don’t deserve to be bullied or harassed for being sluts). This makes sense, because according to several studies rape and clothing choice bear no relation to each other, and because one notices that no one ever says guys should stop taking their shirts off in public lest a gay man attempt to assrape them.”

    Men may not be told to keep their shirts on to avoid gay rape but we are told to stay out of certain neighborhoods late at night, that drinking and driving is a bad idea, not to pick a fight with a much bigger guy etc. Why? Because people are trying to oppress us or shame us? No. Because doing certain things increases the chances of bad things happening. Go to the rough side of town @ 2am…you may get beat up/shot/killed etc. If it happens, whoever beats me up is still responsible for committing that crime, but most people are not going to feel sorry for me for being dumb.

    Girls who get black out drunk in a crowd of people they barely know (or don’t know) or who dress like a hooker are taking risks that everyone KNOWS exist. That doesn’t exempt the man who assaults her, but she still put herself in that position.

    Would you feel sorry for an extreme skateboarder who breaks her arm doing a stunt? No, because she willing undertook risky behavior that everyone around her knew could end badly. Does that mean we won’t set the broken arm and put on a cast? No.

    I hope I explained that clearly…it can be a touchy subject.

    DD

  • DaveD

    “Esau,

    Yeah, good catch. Also in defense of “creepy”, feminist are fighting to remove the shame on fat women. They should also defend creepy men and tell women they should be banging those.

    In other words… more of the same.”

    I’ll cry for the fat girl who can’t get the star quaterback to sleep with her when the cheerleaders start hooking up with the AV Club geeks.

    DD

  • White Cloud

    I think you all are missing the point. The woman in the photo is not neccessarily promiscuous. Heck, she may not be gettin’ any at all! It has more to do with how women are labled due to their dress, again see the original reasoning behind “slut walk”. By the way, I read recently that India or Nepal or some country over there is having their own “Slut Walk” this month, but they are calling it something indigenous to their culture and putting it in context to their environment. I highly doubt anyone will be wearing anything “skimpy” considering what they consider skimpy, we consider “conservative”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud
      If we’re missing the point, so is the mainstream media, as well as many feminists. There is not consensus about the purpose of the SlutWalks or their efficacy. Indeed, many feminists feel they’ve been decidedly unhelpful – including Rebecca Traister in today’s NYXs.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Yohami: I know some polyfolk who would seriously argue that idea. I mean, yeah, alpha asshole whatever, but none of them have to use Google Calendar in order to handle all the people they’re having sex with. Maybe I have a weird sample, but all the dudes I know who regularly have orgies are also the chubby nerds who really dig on Firefly.

    Esau: You missed the bit where I said men AND WOMEN can be creepy? I was creepy when I was younger. Creepy is a bad way to get laid, because making people feel uncomfortable is a bad way to get laid; therefore, I disapprove of it, because I want people who want to get laid to get laid. Simple as that. What I mean by “creepy” is best described in this essay.

    I agree that some people misuse it; however, the concept of “makes people feel unsafe and uncomfortable in a sexual way” is still a good concept.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know some polyfolk who would seriously argue that idea. I mean, yeah, alpha asshole whatever, but none of them have to use Google Calendar in order to handle all the people they’re having sex with.

      That’s funny, because an article on polyamory is where I read about needing to use and share Google calendars to keep all the obligations straight.

      Maybe I have a weird sample, but all the dudes I know who regularly have orgies are also the chubby nerds who really dig on Firefly.

      I have yet to see a photo of poly’s or swingers that included anyone remotely attractive. I don’t know why this is, but it’s undeniable.

      the concept of “makes people feel unsafe and uncomfortable in a sexual way” is still a good concept.

      This puts the onus on the interested party to read the mind of the object of desire. It’s impossible. A man asking a woman for a date is neither unsafe, nor does it have to be uncomfortable. If the woman is not interested, she need only gracefully decline. If she feels unsafe or uncomfortable, that says more about her than the man, assuming that she isn’t receiving this invitation on Death Row.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Also, NO ONE wants you to fuck fat chicks if you don’t want to. Why the hell would anyone want that? That’s fucking stupid. Even fat ladies don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with them.

    Body positivity (at least the kind I subscribe to) is about trying to get people to stop, i.e., yelling “fatass” at jogging fat women from passing cars, because that is douchey as shit.

  • jess

    ozy,
    .
    just so you know- Im applauding everything you are writing- I’m just too busy to properly contribute right now.
    .
    i love the wit and wiser overview-nice work….
    Jess

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ozy,

    “Also, NO ONE wants you to fuck fat chicks if you don’t want to. Why the hell would anyone want that? That’s fucking stupid. Even fat ladies don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with them.”

    I was talking to a guy at work and he said that back in college he and his friends would have a point system for girls. Hot girls were worth more points; ugly girls worth little. The exception to this was if you started telling the ugly/fat girl how disgusting she was during sex. Then you got a certain amount of points depending on how long she let you keep going at it before she stopped you. Horrible, of course. The thing that turned my stomach the most was that he said the majority of ugly/far girls didn’t ever make them stop.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    @Michael Maier

    I’m not judging her actions. What I am doing is weighing the odds she’s got an STD. I watched her sleep with at least 8 guys in two semesters. If she was picking that many guys from the gym, how many other guys was she sleeping with outside of it?

    That’s just too great of an STD risk for me.

  • Esau

    Ozy: “Esau: You missed the bit where I said men AND WOMEN can be creepy?”

    No, I ignored it because (1) it’s a distraction off the subject, and (2) it’s ridiculously irrelevant and I wanted to spare you the embarrassment. But, since you insist, here it is again, slowly:

    My complaint is that women’s use of the word “creepy”, especially as supported and amplified by feminists, is very often — perhaps almost universally — capricious, subjective, loaded, selfish, and destructive. (Do you grasp that I’m talking orders of magnitude beyond your anodyne little “some people misuse it” characterization?) To say, “Women can also be creepy, but similarly shouldn’t” is not a reply to this point at all, just a blundering side-step that strongly suggests you either don’t grasp the main point or don’t have an answer to it. The very fact that you think this constitutes a reply is, well, creepy.

    Further, the statement that “women can, but shouldn’t, be creepy in approaching men” is wildly irrelevant in a world where (your own nanoscopic experience aside) the vast majority of approaching is done by men, and the vast majority of judging and responding is done by women — of which the vast majority is rejection. Friendly hint: you’ll have a better chance of making a point with people if you confine your remarks to overlap with this present space-time continuum.

    “Creepy is a bad way to get laid, because making people feel uncomfortable is a bad way to get laid”

    Undeniable! but what’s more impressive is your ability to lunge straight for the capillaries. The main point is not that creepiness is ineffective, it’s that creepiness is simultaneously (i) defined entirely in the subjective judgement of women, and (ii) treated by many women, and nearly all feminists, not as a difference of opinion but as a crime, for which the man should be shamed and punished. When “creepy” behavior is judged solely by a woman’s feelings, it doesn’t take long before “creepy” is effectively equivalent to “anything that the woman would rather not have happen”; and so the universal injunction “Don’t be creepy!” has the effective meaning “Don’t do anything that a woman doesn’t want you to do.” Unattractive or awkward men, away with you all! back to your basements, or to prison.

    This is the gift of feminism: the standard that says, anything a man does which results in a woman being even slightly uncomfortable is not just a mistake or an unfortunate mismatch but an out-and-out crime on his part. Do you understand the distinction here? Susan often wonders/complains about how more decent men don’t do more to approach and initiate, but the answer is right here in front of us: decent men are exactly those who took most closely to heart the feminist message, that making women uncomfortable is a CRIME, and so something THOU SHALT NOT TAKE A CHANCE OF DOING; after too many years of being treated like criminals for doing basically normal things, they’d had enough and left the field to misogynist jerks and cads. It’s weird to put it this way but it’s true: when approaching women becomes a crime, then only criminals will approach women. (Thanks, I’ll be here all week.)

  • White Cloud

    “I was talking to a guy at work and he said that back in college he and his friends would have a point system for girls. Hot girls were worth more points; ugly girls worth little. The exception to this was if you started telling the ugly/fat girl how disgusting she was during sex. Then you got a certain amount of points depending on how long she let you keep going at it before she stopped you.”

    And yet there’s some guys arguing that “rape is not about power”! When even plain old sex is clearly a power play to many of them, there is no way that rape is about anything other than power.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud

      When even plain old sex is clearly a power play to many of them, there is no way that rape is about anything other than power.

      Sex should not be about power, at all. This is why I detest the feminist message that sex empowers women. It’s a warped view of sexual relations between human beings. The worst example is Karen Owen’s Duke F*ck List. Far worse and abusive than anything Jesus said.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    Ok I just tried posting a comment just now, and I don’t see it. So here we go again.

    Yohami,

    But somehow they leave men out of the equation. I have not seen a feminist stating that men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for it. Or they would be doing alpha / pimp / even PUA walks and celebrating Game.

    Paying for prostitutes aint freedom. Freedom / celebration would be if feminism cheered men for approaching / talking to women while expressing sexual interest. Or cheered when men expressed desire to have sex with women, etc.

    Personally I think that to feminists, these things are non-issues because to them (from the outside looking in) males already have that freedom. Freedom from judgement of being promiscuous having high partner counts. Freedom from having their sexual history being linked to their moral character or simply being sexually assertive. Yeah I know men think differently on the whole thing and that there’s much more to the topic. I’m just offering possible rationale.

    If my previous comment was indeed posted, then feel free to delete this one Susan.

  • Mike C

    “Among all the dichotomies of our times—doves and hawks, liberals and conservatives, elites and masses—there is one that seems especially crucial: the distinction between those who focus and those who blur. When people blur, it is usually either because they are not capable of focusing or because a sharp picture of the issues would make their case collapse. Currently the blurrers are riding high. Try getting people to focus on precisely what they mean by overpopulation, urban sprawl or social justice and you are only likely to see the blur become blurrier. Even terms that were once sharply focused, like racism, discrimination or a level playing field are getting fuzzier and fuzzier.” Thomas Sowell, “Lies, Damned Lies and Blurs,” Forbes, 31 May, 1999.

    Susan focuses. Rebecca Traister and the sluts and slut-walkers blur. No doubt some of them will try to shame Susan for focusing. She deserves our thanks.
    .
    I never considered the distinction between focuses and blurrers before, but that is a very insightful and useful distinction. Arguably, much if not all of modern feminism is about blurring. Words like “rape” take on all sorts of expanded meaning well beyond the act it originally referred to.
    .
    And yes, Susan is a focuser which is why they blurrers attack her with such vitriol.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Anon: That’s an accurate summary of the feminist view.

    Esau: What’s funny is that I agree with your criticisms. :) Have you read Clarisse Thorn’s post on the subject? Unfortunately, I don’t know a better word to refer to “making someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way” in a way that’s, you know, actually readable. :) Since it’s problematic, I’ll use the definition “make someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way”, which is long as hell, but bear with me. :P

    The approaching thing is, I feel, a red herring. It’s definitely possible to make someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way without approaching them. For instance, back when I was creepy, I used to stare at people I liked unblinkingly in class, or follow people I liked around and then duck behind a bush when it looked like they saw me. Neither is approaching; both make someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way, and I’m really glad someone kicked my ass to stop me from doing that.

    Making someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way is, of course, defined by someone’s feelings: so are other douchey things, like “insults” (making someone else feel bad with your words). However, a reasonable person standard should be applied, I think. A reasonable person would think that calling an acquaintance a pussy is an insult; a reasonable person would think staring for ten minutes at an acquaintance would make that acquaintance feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way. In addition, when someone gives negative body language or verbal signals, you should probably stop doing whatever it is you’re doing, because you are making them feel uncomfortable. (People might still call you “creepy,” but in that case it falls under the “shaming of male sexuality” definition, and they should stop fucking doing that because shaming sexuality is BAD.)

    And making someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way should, in my opinion, never be a crime, unless that person is touching the other person without their consent. It’s unpleasant, but it’s hardly criminal, and I oppose anyone who would plan on making it so.

  • filrabat

    Idea: Instead of draining slut of its venomous content, why not pump venomous content into stud (or at least equalize the stigma-level of the two terms)? Never mind what biology says, even if it is built into us. Culture and memes play at least as large a part in forming our reactions toward this and that as biology does. Heck some cultural traits are so deeply engrained that we often mistake our cultural upbringing for essential human nature itself
    (look no further than the 1950s White Deep Southerns or 1980s white South Africans for proof of how powerfully our culture influences our views about what the scope and limits of human nature is. As a many-generations white Deep Southerner, I can speak with authority on this topic).

    In short, human nature is much more flexible than we tend to believe, as evidenced by mainstream US attitudes toward gays in 1986 vs 2011 (two years many HUS posters clearly remember – including me). While memes and culture don’t completely suppress human nature, they definitely shape how that nature reacts to certain things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @filrabat

      Idea: Instead of draining slut of its venomous content, why not pump venomous content into stud (or at least equalize the stigma-level of the two terms)?

      The problem is that the etymology of the word slut has always been highly negative, meaning dirty, slovenly. Stud, on the other hand, calls to mind a stallion-sized penis and prized sperm. I do believe the terms manwhore and manslut attempt to address the issue, and I recently heard women describing a guy as having a “trash dick,” i.e. too many pump and dumps.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    They wish to silence those who would call their lifestyles morally bankrupt (or even think it).

    Susan, if you’ve never heard someone call sluthood morally bankrupt, why on earth would you care about people trying to silence those calling it so?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, if you’ve never heard someone call sluthood morally bankrupt, why on earth would you care about people trying to silence those calling it so?

      Because they’re creating an appearance of unfairness and discrimination, when in fact they are not being discriminated against. They assume the mantle of the oppressed, when in fact they are completely liberated. It’s phony.

  • filrabat

    Johnny,

    I think your post about feminism refers to different “waves” of feminism (first wave gaining legal equality in property ownership/inheritance and voting matters; second wave, institutionalized discrimination in business and industry; third wave, the present form of feminism, etc).

    Agreed with Susan for society (and especially modern feminists) criticizing chastity. Modern feminists (and mainstream society in general) have gone way beyond sexual liberation and simply substituted one sexual tyrrany for another – instead of shaming sluts, they’re shaming those who choose to be chaste. Seems like sexual liberation, and the key word here is liberation is now just cheap propaganda to pressure people to follow their lead, namely by name-calling and degradation. If that isn’t hypocrisy, then I don’t know what is.

    You want to be free from shaming when you just follow your animal instincts and have lots of sex? Fine by me. But don’t turn the tables and shame others when they follow what THEIR conscience (not your’s but THEIRS) that tells them “it’s not a good idea to be sexually loose”.

  • White Cloud

    “If a bunch of us men got together to celebrate pumping and dumping, as well as treating women as little more than the sex objects they want to be (but not assaulting or raping them), the howls of outrage from the feminist slime molds that infest every corner of our culture would deafen the whole country.”

    Its called “Strip Club”. As far as I know sex-positive feminists are not outraged by strip clubs. As far as I know some sex-postive feminists even work as strippers.

    Matt C, why do you think sex-positive feminists can’t wait for the day when men opt out of the dating market and take to dolls, robots and porn exclusively? Who would heterosexual sex-positive feminists have sex with then?

    Regarding that Perfect Male Robot – if its cheap and can be programmed exactly how I like ‘em, hell, why not? But I think tactile 3-D computer generated holographic perfect male would be cooler. Just for fun. Nothing beats actual human contact though. Or does it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Matt C, why do you think sex-positive feminists can’t wait for the day when men opt out of the dating market and take to dolls, robots and porn exclusively? Who would heterosexual sex-positive feminists have sex with then?

      A large number of sex-pos fems appear to identify as queer or “non-cisgendered.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “If a bunch of us men got together to celebrate pumping and dumping, as well as treating women as little more than the sex objects they want to be (but not assaulting or raping them), the howls of outrage from the feminist slime molds that infest every corner of our culture would deafen the whole country.”

      Its called “Strip Club”. As far as I know sex-positive feminists are not outraged by strip clubs. As far as I know some sex-postive feminists even work as strippers.

      Touche.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Renee,

    But all of that is bullshit, of course.

    I guess, from the outside, women look into men and only see the attractive ones, the alphas, doing stuff with impunity, so they want to emulate the behavior? or..?

    Thing is Alpha behavior is not “men” behavior. So its not “men” who can screw around and never take responsibility and have fun and get their way and be above of it all. Its not “men”, but just “a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of men” who usually arent not even the most valuable to the community.

    So whats the point for a whole gender, which doesnt even have testosterone, emulating the most macho men amogng the men? and banning such behavior from men and demonizing it? Cut the men´s balls, only to fake you have balls?

    Man. This is one of these zombies. I know its pointless to keep killing it.

    Thing is I crossed the line a long time ago. Im alpha now. I get all the fun. I screw around and have whatever I want. But this is not what “men” have and its really beyond the dreams of what a regular guy can get, so its really stupid to talk about this as a “men privilege”. Men dont have such thing.

    And a lot of men dont even want it. A lot of men just want to be good responsible men.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    “And a lot of men dont even want it. A lot of men just want to be good responsible men.”

    i think this is very key. there’s always the age old arguement that it’s MUCH easier for a woman to get laid than a man, so being a man slut equates to SKILL, rather than a woman slut equates to “easy”. i’m sure that point was made in the above comments but i’m not reading all 77.

    to me, being “alpha” isn’t about doing whatever the hell i want, it’s about doing what i want within reason while exercising responsibility and accountability. if i butt heads with a jacked 6’0″ meathead and i get my my ass beat…..it’s my fault. if i come on to an 9 and over-game and get shot down…..my fault. no one helps an alpha succeed, and no one causes him failure. i don’t want/need someone patting me on the back because i bedded down an 8. you damn right i got her, she never had a chance.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    danny,

    Yeah thats the other thing. From the “outside” it looks like a woman doesnt need any skill to bed “men”, so its not like you can say “that girl has to really have something about her, look how many men she has been able to score”

    And then easy girl with the voracity / impunity of an Alpha… I dont think we need that.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    “A beta with inner game is the real deal.”

    thats like stephie calling alphas losers. eh.

    better keep calling the dreamy men “real men”. Beta contradicts with having inner game. what you need is an alpha who isnt promiscuous and has values.

    a beta will still fail your shit tests and worry and be a panzy, and you´ll resent him and mock his “inner game”.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau at 9:31pm

    +1

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Esau at 9:31pm

    +1

    yeah, second that.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    plus when was the last time I heard of a guy rejecting a girl because she was “creepy?” eh. never. fat? sure. ugly? sure. creepy? damn. never.

    but if this happened, feminism would be rooting for the creepy PRIDE. for women only, of course.

  • DelFresco

    Oh my. “Proud Slut”. Sorry to be rude, but when you call yourself a slut, you’re implying you don’t care about socially accepted boudaries.

    Fine. The woman in the picture is just fat, and rather masculine. A slut, in the original sense, was a good looking woman who went after sex in an assertive, manly way, and accumulated a high tally mark doing so. This high tally mark made her questionable LTR material for men. And the fact that she had men other women wanted made her the enemy of many other women.

    The fat idiot on picture doesn’t qualify as slut, period. No men are going to want to have sex with her and no sane woman would envy her.

    Why she’s interested in taking on the label slut is another subject.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DelFresco

      Why she’s interested in taking on the label slut is another subject.

      Indeed. Yet out of some sense of decorum we fail to mention that the Slut Walks are popular with women who are probably not receiving much male attention. Many of the most sex-positive feminists and journalists are notably unattractive. There’s an anti-male chip on their beefy shoulders.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    I noticed that I started by posts with “ok” 3 times in a row. That’s pretty embarrassing lol. It’d be nice if there was an edit button, but I just have to be more aware of what I type.

    Anyway, a couple of things:

    Girls who get black out drunk in a crowd of people they barely know (or don’t know) or who dress like a hooker are taking risks that everyone KNOWS exist. That doesn’t exempt the man who assaults her, but she still put herself in that position.

    The problem I have with the whole “don’t dress like a hooker” thing is that we seem to reduce the reason for rape to dress. And really, how does one define “dressing like a hooker” besides extremely sexual dress. Personally, I don’t believe that rape victims are dressed as “hookers” as often as people think.

    Esau,
    About creepiness. Well, I’ve only been in one situation where I thought a guy was creepy. I was at a club where I was walking through the crowd with a friend and a guy grabbed my wrist as I was walking by. I was pulling away, shaking my head “no”, by he wouldn’t let go right away. Eventually he did though. He wasn’t smiling or anything, just staring. That’s my example, and no, the guy shouldn’t be arrested or anything.

    Something else too. While catcalling isn’t really creepy, I can sympathize at a female being uncomfortable. It can get kind of awkward. And it has nothing to do with a guy being “beta”, at least in my case. I’m not really paying attention to how the guy looks, all I hear is something catcalling me on the street.

    Slightly OT, but I wanted to mention this. It concerns saying “hi” to men you don’t know on the street.

    I read about this topic under the thread “A Satisfying Tale of Regret”. I am one of those women who sometimes look away or down when a guy walks by. But with me it has to do with past experiences of saying “hi” and a guy wanting to know my name, age, am I taken, etc., etc., just from me smiling and saying hi (I always smile when I say hi to someone). This has happened quite a few times when it’s just me and a guy walking on a sidewalk or at a street. I actually don’t like ignoring someone walking by me, I was taught to be polite and say hi. So I sometimes give a guy a quick look and a hi with a small smile. It’s just that I don’t want to go through a guy trying to hook up and me turning him down.

  • Matt C

    Renee,

    But all of that is bullshit, of course.

    I guess, from the outside, women look into men and only see the attractive ones, the alphas, doing stuff with impunity, so they want to emulate the behavior? or..?

    Thing is Alpha behavior is not “men” behavior. So its not “men” who can screw around and never take responsibility and have fun and get their way and be above of it all. Its not “men”, but just “a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of men” who usually arent not even the most valuable to the community.

    So whats the point for a whole gender, which doesnt even have testosterone, emulating the most macho men amogng the men? and banning such behavior from men and demonizing it? Cut the men´s balls, only to fake you have balls?

    Man. This is one of these zombies. I know its pointless to keep killing it.

    Thing is I crossed the line a long time ago. Im alpha now. I get all the fun. I screw around and have whatever I want. But this is not what “men” have and its really beyond the dreams of what a regular guy can get, so its really stupid to talk about this as a “men privilege”. Men dont have such thing.

    And a lot of men dont even want it. A lot of men just want to be good responsible men.

    Exactly. I don’t know where the fuck women got the idea that men can have sex whenever they want. Men have to work so fucking hard to get laid.

    Maybe an example is necessary to drill the point in.

    There’s this 62 year old woman who has had sex with 200+ men IN TWO YEARS! I’m assuming by the way she talked about all the men, is that they were all attractive to boot. http://www.metro.co.uk/news/845962-grandmother-62-has-sex-with-200-toyboys-in-2-years

    By contrast, let’s look at a known name in the dating community, Paul Janka. Paul Janka is a 6’1″, very goodlooking, confident, socially intelligent, HARVARD GRADUATE. Guess how many women he had sex with in the course of TWELVE YEARS. 132. About four to six of those years he was in exclusive relationships. This info comes from his feature on Dr. Phi’s show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gZkZS4DuGg&feature=related.

    So if we compare, Grandma Jenkins had sex with new partners at SIX TIMES the rate of Paul Janka, a young, tall, very goodlooking, highly intelligent, Harvard graduate. Can you see? Can you comprehend the difference?

  • Matt C

    Before the embedded youtube video, my original post said:

    Now let’s look at a well known guy in the dating community, Paul Janka. Paul Janka is a tall, very goodlooking, young, highly intelligent, HARVARD GRADUATE. Over the course of 12 YEARS, he had sex with 132 women. Supposedly half were spent in exclusive relationships.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Esau wrote:

    It’s weird to put it this way but it’s true: when approaching women becomes a crime, then only criminals will approach women.

    That’s a gem. So much truth in that.

    In terms of “being creepy”, Roosh once suggested that if you don’t subjectively feel like a creep, then you’re not pushing hard enough.

    Food for thought.

  • OffTheCuff

    And now respect is not sufficient, you want us to celebrate your
    choices! Regardless of my own moral code, I’m not a good person if I don’t celebrate your views? I am ethically bound to celebrate polyamory, urine play or anything else you deem OK.

    As far as I can tell, Ozy’s political position is that nobody should ever feel bad about sex (“gender”), or sex (“getting off”), no matter what they do. Sex with zero social consequences. Be it a geriatric orgy on the subway, or if you mother stars in her own German Scheisse-video… then that’s stricken from the record, the jury is instructed to ignore that poop-covered dong.

    She’s *very* concerned that people shouldn’t ever feel bad if they don’t fit into traditional sex roles, since that’s her subculture. So when pressed in the comments, she’ll give a half-hearted, token protest if people feel bad because they wanted traditional sex roles, but were made to feel bad about that.

    So, I agree with Sue. You can make your choices, I can respect your right to make them. But, I don’t have to respect those choices. I can think they are weird, icky, strange, a bad idea, or even wrong, just as much as I can think they are cool or fun. And it extends to you — you can think I’m a total loser weirdo for having three kids in a stable marriage all you want. Disrespect in you mind all you want.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Renee

    Slightly OT, but I wanted to mention this. It concerns saying “hi” to men you don’t know on the street.

    I read about this topic under the thread “A Satisfying Tale of Regret”. I am one of those women who sometimes look away or down when a guy walks by. But with me it has to do with past experiences of saying “hi” and a guy wanting to know my name, age, am I taken, etc., etc., just from me smiling and saying hi (I always smile when I say hi to someone).

    Renee, I was the one who put out that idea. I’d like to say that it’s been badly misconstrued, but that’s not quite right. Mis-understood, maybe, and the idea clearly brings out a lot of fear.

    The idea is NOT to put out what’s been called IOIs. It is NOT necessarily an invitation for a conversation. It IS within your power and ability to control that – just move on, like you said. It IS a way to make friends and influence people.

    It is a acknowledgment that someone exists, and contrary to popular opinion, it works like a champ, too.

    As it turns out, you’ll discover (like I did) that if you are willing to acknowledge people, they will acknowledge you in kind. If you are standoffish, cold, aloof and indifferent, that’s how you will be treated, and no amount of fake-smiling will change that. In general, that type of person should refrain from complaining they’re not getting dates (or that their boss isn’t noticing them at work, for that matter). The complaint is not justified and the remedy is too easy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      The idea is NOT to put out what’s been called IOIs. It is NOT necessarily an invitation for a conversation. It IS within your power and ability to control that – just move on, like you said. It IS a way to make friends and influence people.

      It is a acknowledgment that someone exists, and contrary to popular opinion, it works like a champ, too.

      This is my recommended first step for any single person to improve their dating life/prospects. I’m rather extraverted, so it’s easy for me, but honestly, I find people extremely responsive to a simple smile and hi. I meet and chat with strangers all the time. If I were single….ha, watch out.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I think that to feminists, they believe that these things aren’t necessary to do on their part because to them the freedom already exists for men. From the outside looking in (especially for females), males don’t have to worry about judgement when it comes to promiscuity and histories of sexual partners, or how people link their sexual past and activities to their moral character. Yeah, yeah, I know that we already discussed this many times and that there’s much more to this topic. I’m just offering what I guess is their rationale on this thing.”

    The rationale is what we call “the apex fallacy” – they see men at the top having their choice of sexual partners and being admired for it, and surmise “see, guys already have this freedom, so we need to extend it to women.” When in reality only a small subset of men have it and the rest toil in frustration.

    Much of feminism’s mistakes are a collectivization of the fact that most men are unremarkable and invisible to women. They want all women to have access to what’s available to top men.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    “It has always happened this way” =/= “it’s right.” Rape, murder and war are also cross-cultural traits that have existed in animals too; doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work to reduce them. Obviously, slut shaming is not at the level of evil that rape or murder is, but I still think it’s wrong.

    First this is a faulty argument. Rape was considered a crime in most civilized societies were men needed to pay a fine for it and/or marry to the girl if she was a virgin or get killed if she was a married woman so again this was. The same about murder and war.
    People didn’t woke up one day and decided to do war, they were competing for territory and resources and also for ideologies. War is the reason we all can be free to type in a computer right now so as much as I believe war is the last solution war for a right cause is not something to be condemned.
    Second morality worked to protect people from other people with less scrupulous you are assuming that people should be free and they themselves can make sane choices without hurting others in the process. How that has worked so far?

    I’ll bite. One of my core moral values is bodily autonomy: every person has the right to do whatever they want to their own body, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else, and no one else should condemn them for it. From a rights perspective, the body is the one thing that belongs to you– someone can take away your wealth or property, but your body is always yours. In a way, it is the source of all freedoms. Therefore, your right of control over it should be inviolate and unquestioned.

    This sound very good in paper, like all feminist maxims, but we already discussed that you are not totally body autonomy, with the example of the 14 year old she only deserves to make sexual choices with certain type of men, like men of certain ages, because in your opinion there is a imbalance of power and society shouldn’t allow liaisons among people that are not verifiable peers even though you don’t know if personally she consider herself empowered by sleeping with older men, so again all you are saying is that you have a different set of controls for sex. So sex positivism has a different set of rules, but they have standards like anyone else, so why are your ( I mean sex-pos in general) qualms better and to be accepted more than any other in the past?
    Who gets to say what is harmful or not in the use of the body? Going back to our hypothetical case this 14 year old could disagree with what society considers good for herself and engage in all sorts of harmful behaviors, who gets to decide? Is there any logical way to regulate this?

  • tito

    “people should respect them for making those choices”

    choice to do what? how come we always gotta respect someone’s “choice” (pop-culture training) only in cases of their doing dumb shit?

  • White Cloud

    Susan, how is a dad who’s kids you babysat grabbing you an example of alpha? Aren’t alphas the men who don’t have to grab women and girls? Aren’t alphas the men that women are grabbing?

    Did you report his behaviour to your parents if you were still under their care? Did you tell his wife or even the police?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud

      Susan, how is a dad who’s kids you babysat grabbing you an example of alpha?

      Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I did not mean to suggest that his advances on a 14 yo made him alpha. The truth is, he was very much an alpha male to begin with.

      Aren’t alphas the men who don’t have to grab women and girls?

      First, alpha males are sexually aggressive. They see it, they want it, they take it.

      Aren’t alphas the men that women are grabbing?

      Today, yes! Keep in mind I’m 54, so this would have happened in 1970. The only women grabbing alphas with higher SMV than them by that time were “flower children.” Female sexual aggression has soared only in the last 20 years.

  • White Cloud

    “War is the reason we all can be free to type in a computer right now”

    Really? Please explain.

    Del Fresco, that the fat woman in the photo does not qualify as a typical “slut” is precisely the point behind Slut Walk.

    I don’t know the history of Sex Positive Feminism but it seems to have grown out of an increasing mainstreaming of porn. As far as “respecting choices”, I repsect choices that are reflective of choices I would make. I’m not obliged to respect choices that I would not make for myself in a million years. Respect is a vague sort of concept that cannot be measured or quantified with precision. Keeping mum in the company of, or avoiding altogether people who’s sexual choices do not reflect your own could be interpreted by them as blatantly disrespectful and offensive, or it could just be interpreted as neutral. What does it matter? Nobody has the power to stop you from you doing what you do so what do you care if your choices are respected or not?

    I don’t understand the need to broadcast one’s sex life to the world. Why not keep what you do private between you and your partners? Why the need to identify so much with whether or not you’re into BDSM, a top, a bottom and all that? Ultimately who cares and what does it have to do with real world issues?

    These things are private bedroom matters, not matters for public discourse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t know the history of Sex Positive Feminism but it seems to have grown out of an increasing mainstreaming of porn.

      No, it grew out of the Sexual Revolution. Women, wanted to get with as high status a male as possible, began offering more no-strings sex as an inducement. This is obviously only effective for ONSs or short-term flings, but many young women habitually engage in these commitment-free hookups as a source of male validation.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    I’m seriously thinking of banning the word creepy from this blog. It’s just such a transparent low blow.

    A relevant article to the above, Susan.
    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/18/female-dating-privilege-and-the-construction-of-the-creep-noh/

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Something else too. While catcalling isn’t really creepy, I can sympathize at a female being uncomfortable. It can get kind of awkward. And it has nothing to do with a guy being “beta”, at least in my case. I’m not really paying attention to how the guy looks, all I hear is something catcalling me on the street.

    I hate catcalling with the fire of two thousand suns, but is not a case in which a woman should try to organize a social backlash on it. I most ignored or it I was having a slow day I responded to it, funny enough men don’t catcall to want you to approach is mostly a display for the benefit of the other guys, or at best the left overs of the mating call, so once you do approach they are totally mute. I also catcalled back sometimes or just call them into how idiotic they look with hilarious reactions.
    Thing is that men are human too, shocking I know, and if you confront them in a respectful manner and tell them straight up that you don’t feel “desirable but uncomfortable with the catcalling” most of them will give up, or if you see them that they are just trying to have fun you can take the “creeped out feeling” out of it, or have a whole catcalling interaction from now on or if they are really interested ask you out, the whole “catcalling is predatory patriarchy behaviour” is paranoia, rapists don’t catcall, that would only bring more witnesses, YMMV.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Whoops, I got them mixed up. Well you’ll probably enjoy both articles, but Susan, here’s one more relevant than the other.
    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/15/creep-noh/

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White,

    there is no way that rape is about anything other than power

    you´re wrong

  • White Cloud

    Ozy, ”the concept of “makes people feel unsafe and uncomfortable in a sexual way” is still a good concept.”

    Susan, “This puts the onus on the interested party to read the mind of the object of desire. It’s impossible. ”

    Susan, just a few comments before the above exchange you listed creepy experiences you had and ended with, ”Creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention.”

    How is that any different from what Ozy is saying? Doesn’t the creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention also put the onus on the interested party to read the mind of the object of desire? Isn’t that also “impossible”?

    Stephanie, ”I hate catcalling with the fire of two thousand suns, but is not a case in which a woman should try to organize a social backlash on it.”

    A one-off catcall every now and again is one thing, when public space becomes dominated by catcalling to the point where most women cannot go about their daily business without being disturbed, then there is very much need to organize a social backlash. There are cultures where this is the case.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud

      Doesn’t the creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention also put the onus on the interested party to read the mind of the object of desire?

      The key word is inappropriate here. And that is something that I believe we can measure objectively. Asking a woman for a date is not inappropriate, no matter how out of your league she is. Refusing to take no for an answer is inappropriate. Stalking is inappropriate. Touching a stranger is inappropriate. Anger directed at a stranger is inappropriate. We do have a set of culturally acceptable social behaviors. It is taught and reinforced naturally. When women decide that they are the only judges of what is “creepy” or inappropriate, they’re stealing agency from men. They’re appointing themselves judge and jury – by calling “Wolf!” whenever they’re not flattered, they’re framing men for shame, exclusion or even criminal prosecution.

      A one-off catcall every now and again is one thing, when public space becomes dominated by catcalling to the point where most women cannot go about their daily business without being disturbed, then there is very much need to organize a social backlash. There are cultures where this is the case.

      But not in America, where feminism reigns. I haven’t witnessed a catcall toward any woman in over 20 years, all of which I’ve spent living in cities. It’s another canard.

  • White Cloud

    Yohami, unless you are a rapist, you would not know. Interview upon interview with actual rapists have shown that there is most definetly a twisted power element behind it. Why should that surprise you when you have men for whom regular consensual sex goes like this;

    “back in college he and his friends would have a point system for girls. Hot girls were worth more points; ugly girls worth little. The exception to this was if you started telling the ugly/fat girl how disgusting she was during sex. Then you got a certain amount of points depending on how long she let you keep going at it before she stopped you.”

    Regular sex is a power play but rape is somehow free of this element. Sure. And eskimos need to be sold ice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Interview upon interview with actual rapists have shown that there is most definetly a twisted power element behind it.

      A large percentage of sexual assault complaints are date rape, which is really a very, very different kind of animal. It may be about power, e.g. putting a roofie in a woman’s drink, or it may be about the parties being too intoxicated to consent, or the woman withdrawing consent after penetration, etc.

  • White Cloud

    “Matt C, why do you think sex-positive feminists can’t wait for the day when men opt out of the dating market and take to dolls, robots and porn exclusively? Who would heterosexual sex-positive feminists have sex with then?”

    Susan, “A large number of sex-pos fems appear to identify as queer or “non-cisgendered.”

    I know that and that’s why I specified “heterosexual”. There are also a large number of them.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White Cloud,

    “Yohami, unless you are a rapist, you would not know.”

    By that logic the studies are at fault unless the examiners are rapists themselves? busted. I happen to have a logical mind so I can read the data and get to conclussions, same as you could.

    1. Rape is sex by force. So, force = power, means power is definitely a part of it. Maybe half

    2. The other half of rape is SEX. That means, first, that rape is more than power and force.

    3. Rape happens in the animal kindgom – its not “just” a cultural power play.

    4. Rape is abusive and a crime. That means its performed by abusive people with criminal inclinations.

    5. Women rape too.

    So, with all of that on board. When a female teacher rapes his male underage students, are you saying thats “nothing else than power”? is she fucking her students because she hates men or something? how about female prison guards raping the male immates? how about lesbian female to female rape? power only?

    Because honestly my conclusion goes like this: horny people with mental illness sexually abusing other people, because they can. The “can do” is the power part, but hardly the motivation.

    Or, how many crimes are due to “power” and can be labeled as a “power” crimes other than just crimes that use power (most crimes use power)?

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Indeed. Yet out of some sense of decorum we fail to mention that the Slut Walks are popular with women who are probably not receiving much male attention. Many of the most sex-positive feminists and journalists are notably unattractive. There’s an anti-male chip on their beefy shoulders.

    Or it’s frustration at a catch-22. To write it (like I often like to do) as a computer program:
    If(like you say – the average woman seeks a LTR){
    then If(woman finds herself unable to attract men she desires){
    then if(woman has sex easily to attract desirable men){
    then if(woman find those desirable men not accepting her LTR){
    then{ The above listed women find themselves blaming the failure to attain their goals on ‘society’ and terms such as ‘slut’.}}}}}
    else{ Woman has to give up or adapt one of her goals. The LTR, or desirable male. }

    I think one of the largest flaws in current society is failure to understand that compromising means having to give up or amend one or more goals.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    A one-off catcall every now and again is one thing, when public space becomes dominated by catcalling to the point where most women cannot go about their daily business without being disturbed, then there is very much need to organize a social backlash. There are cultures where this is the case.

    Do you know I’m Dominican right? lived 30 years in that culture. Some women agree there that catcalling is annoying when it comes from an unwanted male, or from a wanted make that just catcalls and doesn’t attempt further contact. But I also know couples that met by the man catcalling, the woman responding and wedding bells later on.
    If you went there trying to call a social shaming of catcalling you would be surprised by the fact that most of us don’t think men expressing sexual desire is a bad thing per se and it should be just to communicate that this desired is not welcomed and most men get the clue and stop, as long as there is not attempts to touch in inappropriate way or doing it to girls that are in school uniforms most people don’t have this whole “catcalling is the EVILS! burn them all!”, YMMV.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Susan

    I find people extremely responsive to a simple smile and hi. I meet and chat with strangers all the time. If I were single….ha, watch out.

    Me too, and although I’m perceived that way now, I’ve never been known as extroverted.

    Good advice, to “watch out”, too. It can become flirting and get to intimate surprisingly quickly. Only being happily married saved me. ;)

  • Matt C

    woman withdrawing consent after penetration, etc.

    How is this even possible? I can’t even picture it.

    How can it be rape after she has already let the man inside her?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      woman withdrawing consent after penetration, etc.

      How is this even possible? I can’t even picture it.

      It happens when a woman has second thoughts and says “Stop!” after sex has already begun. According to the law, a man is required to withdraw at that point, and failing to do so constitutes rape.

  • SayWhaat

    I haven’t witnessed a catcall toward any woman in over 20 years, all of which I’ve spent living in cities. It’s another canard.

    …maybe things have changed since the last time you lived in NYC, but girls here get catcalled all the time. It’s the reason I only walk around while plugged into my iPod.

  • SayWhaat

    I have yet to see a photo of poly’s or swingers that included anyone remotely attractive. I don’t know why this is, but it’s undeniable.

    I honestly think that the more wild and deviant one’s sexual activities are, the more objectively unattractive the participants are going to be. I went to a burlesque show a while ago and I observed that the women performing were all aging. The men enjoying the show were either gay or sleazy (I was with my gay friends, btw). It’s the same with nude beaches — they sound awesome if you expect attractive people, but nobody ever is. Not that I’ve ever been to a nude beach (haha), but that’s the only thing I’ve ever heard about from people who have been to one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s the same with nude beaches — they sound awesome if you expect attractive people, but nobody ever is. Not that I’ve ever been to a nude beach (haha), but that’s the only thing I’ve ever heard about from people who have been to one.

      On Martha’s Vineyard, there are a couple of nude beaches. Once, when my kids were young, we went for a long walk and walked along the shore of one of them. I didn’t warn the kids, but suddenly, a rotund grandmother asked my 8 yo son to throw back her errant volleyball. He scampered to retrieve it, then noticed that she was nude, as were all the volleyball players – it appeared to be a multi-generational family game. I will never forget the look on his face. There was not a single body in that group that was worth looking at. *Shudder*

  • Blues

    How is this even possible? I can’t even picture it.

    How can it be rape after she has already let the man inside her?

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/item_niSXmOMgjcr2RTJiRkacXJ

  • Blues

    Clarification: It’s not that it is rape, but that it can be made into rape by the (feminism influenced) law.

  • Mike C

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/item_niSXmOMgjcr2RTJiRkacXJ
    .
    Wow, what if the fifth guy hadn’t taped it on his cell phone? How far could it have gone? Conviction and prison sentence?
    .
    I wonder if the average woman realizes JUST HOW MUCH DAMAGE these false rape claims do to damage the case of women who have actually been raped. I’d like to think I’m the average, reasonable guy, and then you read something like this, and the Duke LaCrosse thing, and the reasonable question is how many women just flat out lie about this sort of thing? Is the reasonable proposition to view any rape claim with a starting point of skepticism?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    How is this even possible? I can’t even picture it.

    You can be forced into a sex that you thought you were going to enjoy and realized you werent. Imagine you go into the girls bed and start having sex and then realize she´s talking with a manly voice, or has an herpes vibrator, or whatever. You would walk away if you dont feel like continuing.

    So reverse the roles on that. If she wants out and you force her to continue, thats rape.

    “Force” being the keyword.

  • jess

    susan,
    your creep definition is interesting.
    May I ask what sanction, if any, should have applied to the guys in your 5 examples?
    Im particularly interested in your opinion in the 5th example.
    .
    My belief is that what you experienced is very, very common as well as very very creepy.
    .
    I would add that a conventionally highly unattractive guy gawping at you openly is creepy- Im sorry but there it is. no doubt there are sub categories like lechery etc but the word creep is so common Im not sure its censure is a viable option.
    .
    it can go either way- if as a 40+ woman I were to gawp at an 18 yo boy I think that would be distasteful to put it mildly. Dustin Hoffman fans be damned.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    Matt C
    Exactly. I don’t know where the fuck women got the idea that men can have sex whenever they want. Men have to work so fucking hard to get laid.

    Badger
    The rationale is what we call “the apex fallacy” – they see men at the top having their choice of sexual partners and being admired for it, and surmise “see, guys already have this freedom, so we need to extend it to women.” When in reality only a small subset of men have it and the rest toil in frustration.

    Much of feminism’s mistakes are a collectivization of the fact that most men are unremarkable and invisible to women. They want all women to have access to what’s available to top men.

    I think it’s more that to women, it’s basically seen as ok for guys to sleep around more than that it’s believed to be easy for them to do so. And that it’s ok to “scratch that itch” and get some, without it being a mark against their character or desirability LTR-wise.

    Again, I know that we’ve had this discussion; I’m just offering rationale.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I have yet to see a photo of poly’s or swingers that included anyone remotely attractive. I don’t know why this is, but it’s undeniable.”

    Tom Leykis: “I’ve never seen an attractive swinger.” I’m assuming it takes one to know one.

  • Blues

    I wonder if the average woman realizes JUST HOW MUCH DAMAGE these false rape claims do to damage the case of women who have actually been raped. I’d like to think I’m the average, reasonable guy, and then you read something like this, and the Duke LaCrosse thing, and the reasonable question is how many women just flat out lie about this sort of thing? Is the reasonable proposition to view any rape claim with a starting point of skepticism?

    To a real raped woman’s case? IMO very little since the law automatically sides with women even if all evidence proves otherwise.

    You can be forced into a sex that you thought you were going to enjoy and realized you werent. Imagine you go into the girls bed and start having sex and then realize she´s talking with a manly voice, or has an herpes vibrator, or whatever. You would walk away if you dont feel like continuing.

    So reverse the roles on that. If she wants out and you force her to continue, thats rape.

    “Force” being the keyword.

    Also true, however the darkside of that scenario is that women can also claim rape if “she wanted out” meaning token resistance and the “guy forced her” meaning disregarded the token resistance.

    All in all i still don’t understand how women don’t get why men seem to be choosing to leave the SMP.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “If I were single….ha, watch out.”

    Oh Jesus.

    Susan, do you know your Myers-Briggs type?

    Joe,

    “As it turns out, you’ll discover (like I did) that if you are willing to acknowledge people, they will acknowledge you in kind. If you are standoffish, cold, aloof and indifferent, that’s how you will be treated, and no amount of fake-smiling will change that. In general, that type of person should refrain from complaining they’re not getting dates (or that their boss isn’t noticing them at work, for that matter). The complaint is not justified and the remedy is too easy.”

    There are so-called “network effects” to being good to people you come into incidental contact with – in other words, people are watching. For a guy it’s critical to building social rapport and value.

    If a woman gives a dismissive, “as if” reply to some dude who never had a chance, guys paying attention are going to write her off or move her to the pump and dump ladder. But if she can let him down firmly without undercutting his humanity, she gets major points and a much greater likelihood of approach. Because seriously, every guy goes through a phase where he’s not on top of his game; why would he invest in a woman who has already shown she treats people badly when she feels they are below her?

    Believe me, gals – there are few things sexier than a woman who’s actually nice to people with less power than her or with nothing to offer her. It’s the kind of woman who makes her boyfriend’s friends jealous. (By contrast, the bridezilla isincredibly unsexy.)

    I’m not saying you have to be nice to guys who won’t go away. But treating people like people to start is a way to get a good social reputation, which will make you highly desired among the community.

    “But not in America, where feminism reigns. I haven’t witnessed a catcall toward any woman in over 20 years, all of which I’ve spent living in cities. It’s another canard.”

    The last catcall I heard about was my female friend who got unsolicited compliments from the cafes of the Castro. Not sure you can really call them catcalls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh Jesus.

      Susan, do you know your Myers-Briggs type?

      ENFJ. Are you surprised?

      Believe me, gals – there are few things sexier than a woman who’s actually nice to people with less power than her or with nothing to offer her.

      I learned an important lesson from my first boss. He was incredibly gracious and friendly with everyone he encountered. He respected every other human being, and he was well liked by everyone in the building, from the maintenance men to the most senior executives. He had grown up poor in Oklahoma, and he never got ahead of himself.

  • Matt C

    http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2011/06/women-dont-lie.html

    Further proof that feminists do not care about equal rights nor the constitution. Fuck feminists.

    Here’s a startling quote:
    “It is fascinating to see intellectual controversy about a social problem itself become grounds for sexual harassment charges. As famous a figure as Alan M. Dershowitz came close to facing charges over precisely the same issue. Dershowitz considers the notion of hostile-environment sexual harassment a threat to both freedom of speech and equal protection (since it sets offenses to women apart from all other offenses). He recounts how a group of feminists in his criminal-law class at Harvard, objecting to his discussion of false allegations of rape, threatened to file hostile-environment charges against him. “Despite the fact that the vast majority of students wanted to hear all sides of the important issues surrounding the law of rape,” Dershowitz states, “a small minority tried to use the law of sexual harassment as a tool of censorship.” The significance of this does not escape him: “The fact that it is even thinkable at a major university that controversial teaching techniques might constitute hostile-environment sexual harassment demonstrates the dangers of this expandable concept.” Still, in Dershowitz’s case the feminist students eventually decided against bringing charges.”

  • Esau

    Ozy: “And making someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way should, in my opinion, never be a crime”

    Renee: “That’s my example, and no, the guy shouldn’t be arrested or anything.”

    If you think by “crime” I mean only “punishable by law” then, I’m sorry, I obviously didn’t get the point across correctly. By “crime” I mean the much more inclusive something the moral authorities of your society tell you that you really, really, really shouldn’t do, and that you should feel guilty and shameful if you do do. Is that clear? It’s a vastly larger superset of the punishable by law set of actions. (Perhaps “sin” is a better word than “crime” for what I mean.)

    Let’s illustrate with the simplest possible example; and I will avoid the “cr__py” word entirely, in favor of Ozy’s very sensible, more exact phrase.

    Our exemplar young man grows up under the feminist indoctrination which tells him (as per Ozy’s language) that Making a woman feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way is a VERY VERY VERY bad thing to do; you should never do it, and you should feel very, very, very bad and ashamed if you ever find that you have done it. Do you have the picture? Good.

    Now our young man passes puberty and (let’s say he’s straight) wants the intimate society of women, and he also wants to do the right thing as he’s been taught. He understands that, practically, he must take the initiative and starts with the very simplest first step: he makes eye contact, maybe with a smile, for at least three seconds, with a variety of women he finds attractive.

    What happens? You know what happens. If he’s not especially handsome and not especially skilled at choosing the right time and place — ie if he’s like most young men — then a substantial fraction of the time, maybe even a majority of the time, the woman will not be interested and she’ll fend off his fledgling advance. She’ll scowl, frown, look away, pointedly ignore him, maybe even get up and leave his vicinity. These are not rare occurrences; by number count, they probably describes the large majority of sexual approaches in the world.

    Now, how should he carry on in the future? Under a previous regime or in an alternate universe, he might think “Ah well, didn’t click; maybe the next one will be better.” Under Feminist Indoctrination, however, if he’s a decent, well-meaning boy then he’ll think “Holy cow! This eye-contact thing is making some women feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way! I feel really ashamed, and had better cut it out. (Guys, don’t do that.)” Now tell me, what kind of a sexual future do you think he has, if he’s been shamed out of even making eye contact? But, that’s exactly what the feminist protocol must lead to when taken seriously.

    Let me take a moment to emphasize that I’m not claiming that the woman in any of these interactions is necessarily a bad actor, or that she should behave any differently. In all of these “Please stop and go away” reactions I’m imagining, she’s not going to call the cops or spray him with mace; it’s just that she really does feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way, and she’s just being honest about it. The fuck-up in the system is not her being honest about her feelings; the fuck-up in the system is the moral code that says he should be mortally ashamed after having tripped her feelings with the mildest possible action.

    Now, back to the future: what is our young man to do? If he’s decent and holds to the moral code he’s been taught, then he won’t take a chance on making a woman feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way again; no, that would be a sin (“Guys, don’t do that.”). His only alternative is to wait in an eternal holding pattern, hanging out near women but never crossing the line to doing anything that might possibly make them uncomfortable; and waiting waiting waiting for that giant, un-mis-interpretable, sky-writing gauge IOI from some woman so he can be 100.0+% sure he won’t inadvertently make her feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way. Or, he can just give it up entirely and go back to porn and XBox. Hello! Does any of this sound familiar yet?

    Of course, Randall Munroe nailed it first: http://xkcd.com/642/ Read the comic, and then ask yourself: where did the young man get his ideas? Cereal box tops, you think?

    And this is how we got to where we are today. By elevating women’s subjective comfort to the Absolute Highest Good, to which all other needs must be subordinated — read some Amanda Marcotte, if you think this is an exaggeration — feminism has made happy, normal sex lives impossible for large numbers of men and women both. And, with decent men being taught to self-censor, who is left with a free field of action? Assholes, of course; men who don’t care about making women uncomfortable or unsafe or anything else. Do you grasp the irony? Feminism enhances misogyny. To use an analogy, here feminism is like the poorly chosen antibiotic, that suppresses the beneficial microbes and in so doing lets the harmful ones run wild, eventually harming and weakening the body. It really is a gift that keeps on giving.

  • SayWhaat

    The last catcall I heard about was my female friend who got unsolicited compliments from the cafes of the Castro. Not sure you can really call them catcalls.

    One time I was walking with a friend when a guy suddenly reached out and grabbed one of her boobs. In broad daylight.

    Not sure you can really call that a catcall.

  • Jess

    Mat c
    Well if you want to ‘f*ck feminists’ (you delightful old so and so you!) you had better the select the sex positive ones….
    .
    I think a lot of feminists are against false rape allegations as it undermines genuine victims. If what you say about the protesters is true then I would be against them and would have been back in my more militant feminist heydays too. In the uk a women was recently jailed for a false rape allegation. Quite right IMO.

  • Jess

    Saywhaat,
    Yeah, but to be fair I was wearing tassels at the time….

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    SayWhaat,

    I don’t think you get it. The Castro is San Francisco’s gay village.

  • White Cloud

    “Do you know I’m Dominican right? lived 30 years in that culture. Some women agree there that catcalling is annoying when it comes from an unwanted male, or from a wanted make that just catcalls and doesn’t attempt further contact. But I also know couples that met by the man catcalling, the woman responding and wedding bells later on.
    If you went there trying to call a social shaming of catcalling you would be surprised by the fact that most of us don’t think men expressing sexual desire is a bad thing per se and it should be just to communicate that this desired is not welcomed and most men get the clue and stop”

    Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another. Latino cultures are known for being, how shall I put it in a way that doesn’t offend, particularly sensual. There are cultures where such behaviour is not welcome and women are very uncomfortable with men expressing sexual desire in public. Personally I have always found Latino men to be too emotional, too licentious, too lecherous, too macho and too possessive for my liking. I’ve never ever been attracted to them and have turned down many an offer.

  • Jess

    Badger,
    I get you but the trouble is, with some guys, you CANNOT, let them down gently.
    If you are not stern and direct in your rejection it can get very messy.
    .
    Getting the balance right is nigh on impossible. When does one snap? If he offers you a drink for the 5th time?
    .
    You know its not easy asking someone to leave you alone and them not get offended.
    .
    I have seen men call nice girls bitches when they rejected a guy in the most neutral way possible. When male pride and alcohol are concerned girls are in a lose lose situation sometimes. If you accept a drink but don’t put out you are a cock teasing user. If you do put out you are a slag. If you don’t accept the drink you are a cold hearted bitch. If you are in exclusive relationship you are a boring non entity. If you ask a guy out you are nymphomaniac. So many lovely choices!

  • White Cloud

    Esau, I think your scenario of the awkward and well-meaning young man becoming confused about eye contact is a problem we won’t have much of very soon. These days when people go out in public they are wired or wireless. Women go to cafes with their cell phones, i-pods, and lap tops. There is very little looking around anymore as women type away text messages or surf the web while waiting for their coffee. Young men no longer need to worry that their eye contact might make women uncomfortable as eye contact is becoming less and less. The best way to meet women these days is from online dating sites. Problem solved.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White Cloud,

    Are you for real?

  • SayWhaat

    @ Badger:

    I got it, but my point was that catcalls and other inappropriate behavior does persist today.

    @ Jess:

    I mean. Wtf.

  • White Cloud

    “Interview upon interview with actual rapists have shown that there is most definetly a twisted power element behind it.”

    “A large percentage of sexual assault complaints are date rape, which is really a very, very different kind of animal. It may be about power, e.g. putting a roofie in a woman’s drink, or it may be about the parties being too intoxicated to consent, or the woman withdrawing consent after penetration, etc.”

    That’s now what I’m talking about Susan. There’s guys on the internet, like Yohami, who have never committed the crime of rape yet are claiming that “rape is about power” is a Feminst myth, while rapists themselves admit to the power element of the crime.

  • Matt C

    I think a lot of feminists are against false rape allegations as it undermines genuine victims. If what you say about the protesters is true then I would be against them and would have been back in my more militant feminist heydays too. In the uk a women was recently jailed for a false rape allegation. Quite right IMO.

    You think a lot of feminists are against false rape allegations? Then why does it seem that so many support it. Feminism isn’t about equality.

    When are we gonna have a humanist movement? I want to see the rise of Humanism!

    Now, how should he carry on in the future? Under a previous regime or in an alternate universe, he might think “Ah well, didn’t click; maybe the next one will be better.” Under Feminist Indoctrination, however, if he’s a decent, well-meaning boy then he’ll think “Holy cow! This eye-contact thing is making some women feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way! I feel really ashamed, and had better cut it out. (Guys, don’t do that.)” Now tell me, what kind of a sexual future do you think he has, if he’s been shamed out of even making eye contact? But, that’s exactly what the feminist protocol must lead to when taken seriously.

    Here’s a funny video that is exactly what you described: http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/tom-brady-snl-sexual-harassment-psa/h7nIkQjgII_oYNH7gQfUpA

    Actually this video perfectly describes that creepy vs alpha dichotomy.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White Cloud,

    There’s guys on the internet, like Yohami, who have never committed the crime of rape yet are claiming that “rape is about power” is a Feminst myth, while rapists themselves admit to the power element of the crime.

    I already responded and asked you a couple of questions.

    here
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/07/23/politics-and-feminism/the-fractured-feminist-position-on-slut-walks/#comment-50578

  • Matt C

    I got it, but my point was that catcalls and other inappropriate behavior does persist today.

    What is inappropriate behavior? Be specific.

  • SayWhaat

    What is inappropriate behavior? Be specific.

    – coming up to me while I am with friends and saying that my “tits look hot, Mama”

    – telling a girl at the DMV she will pass her driver’s test if she unbuttons her shirt more (in front of parents)

    – grabbing any part of any girl’s body while she is in public

    – making the “V” sign in front of your face and licking the air in front of me and my friends

    – listing all the nasty things you’d like to do to me — when I don’t even know you.

    – screaming lewd and offensive things in general

    Want more? Or do you get it now?

  • SayWhaat

    Oh, forgot to mention the time I got flashed on the subway. Yeah, that was totally cool.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    It happens when a woman has second thoughts and says “Stop!” after sex has already begun. According to the law, a man is required to withdraw at that point, and failing to do so constitutes rape.

    As a human being, I quite agree that we should respect each other enough to stop when asked.

    As a cold, heartless being of pure logic, I can’t help but think there’s something very wrong here. 1) The time to say no is before he/she is in your “bed”. 2) It’s just plain impossible to deal with legally without insanely intrusive surveillance into all private areas. It’s just asking for bad law all around.

    Hmmm… seems another case for my “what can be done vs what should be done” discussion (if I ever get around to it).

  • Matt C

    Alright, here’s another question.

    Since, the law states that neither a man nor woman can consent when drunk. Who rapes who when both are having drunk sex?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C

      Since, the law states that neither a man nor woman can consent when drunk. Who rapes who when both are having drunk sex?

      The man rapes the woman, every time.

  • SayWhaat

    ENFJ. Are you surprised?

    Hey, me too! : )

  • GudEnuf

    Susan”

    I am ethically bound to celebrate polyamory, urine play or anything else you deem OK.

    So now it’s not just promiscuity you have a problem with, but sex acts you find gross. Are going to make a chart about how golden showers lead to “EVENTUAL ECONOMIC STAGNATION!!!!!!!!!!”?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      So now it’s not just promiscuity you have a problem with, but sex acts you find gross.

      I know how smart you are, so I can only assume you’re being deliberately obtuse. I don’t care who Ozy pees on. I just reject her position that I should respect the act peeing on someone’s head, or celebrate urine play as a fulfilling exploration of one’s sexuality.

      Are going to make a chart about how golden showers lead to “EVENTUAL ECONOMIC STAGNATION!!!!!!!!!!”?

      The chart already includes that (as discussed in the thread), in the form of ridiculously wasteful government spending to produce sex ed materials that are inappropriate and irrelevant to the vast majority of teens.

  • White Cloud

    telling a girl at the DMV she will pass her driver’s test if she unbuttons her shirt more (in front of parents)

    If anyone dared say something like that to my daughter in front of me I’d beat the living shit out of him.

    If he was an employee of the DMV you could have immediately reported him to a manager.

  • Matt C

    The man rapes the woman, every time.

    Then why is the law even written that way? Why don’t they just say: “Women can’t consent when drunk, but men can,”?

    I would like an explanation.

    What if the woman was drunk and pulled a drunk guy back to an empty room and initiated sex with the guy? If she regrets having sex the next day, is that rape? She can’t consent while drunk from what the law says.

    I want to hear your perspective.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C

      What if the woman was drunk and pulled a drunk guy back to an empty room and initiated sex with the guy? If she regrets having sex the next day, is that rape? She can’t consent while drunk from what the law says.

      I want to hear your perspective.

      The way most state laws are written, sexual consent cannot be granted if the woman is non compos mentis, and inebriation meets that standard. A drunk girl could literally jump on you, rip your jeans off, straddle you and claim you raped her. And she would have a case in most states. In reality, few of these cases are prosecuted, but the point is that they can be, according to state laws. Men are at great risk having sex with drunk women – in college this is high risk, now that the standard of proof has been diluted.

  • White Cloud

    “Aren’t alphas the men who don’t have to grab women and girls? ”

    First, alpha males are sexually aggressive. They see it, they want it, they take it.

    I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.

    Did you tell your parents about this man who’s kids you babysat? Did they tell his wife?

    Yohami, at least you admit the role of power. Many men on the internet are claiming that “rape is about power” is a Feminist myth.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud

      Did you tell your parents about this man who’s kids you babysat? Did they tell his wife?

      I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK. It was a different time. If that happened to my daughter I’d call the police immediately.

  • SayWhaat

    If anyone dared say something like that to my daughter in front of me I’d beat the living shit out of him.

    If he was an employee of the DMV you could have immediately reported him to a manager.

    Didn’t happen to me, happened to a girl sitting next to me while my dad and her mother were present. Her mother was stunned speechless. I don’t think the guy was an employee.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    SayWhaat,

    “I got it, but my point was that catcalls and other inappropriate behavior does persist today.”

    With all due respect, this is a daft argument. Groping is a low-grade sexual assault, entirely different from shouts from the peanut gallery.

  • SayWhaat

    With all due respect, this is a daft argument. Groping is a low-grade sexual assault, entirely different from shouts from the peanut gallery.

    The original argument was against Susan’s claim that she hasn’t witnessed a catcall towards a woman in over 20 years. I listed some of the more awful acts that have happened to me and women I’ve seen over the past few years, but truthfully I do often receive many unwanted catcalls as well.

  • SayWhaat

    Oh, you may find this site interesting.

    How Many Women Find Street Harassment Flattering?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “ENFJ. Are you surprised?”

    Not by the E or the J, or that you are not an NT.

    On your boss: You really don’t have to be a jerk. You just have to be no more beta than you are alpha. And guys who have been thinking about breaking out of the Nice Guy pattern would be good to recall that amiability and goodwill, as a social skill, is an alpha trait.

    The difficulty is that so many beta guys have tried to trade being “nice” for the affections of women and the respect of men, and have predictably failed, so when they decide to change they can be very averse to being nice because it is associated with their past chumpitude.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another.

    You said that

    A one-off catcall every now and again is one thing, when public space becomes dominated by catcalling to the point where most women cannot go about their daily business without being disturbed, then there is very much need to organize a social backlash. There are cultures where this is the case.

    I was trying to educate you that American sensibilities are not transferable. You were the one that brought the cultures with a lot of catcalling and I told you that in this culture we don’t consider men expressing their sexuality a problem so big that no woman can solve in a personal basis.

    There are cultures where such behaviour is not welcome and women are very uncomfortable with men expressing sexual desire in public.

    So sex positivism is only about what women find comfortable and men desires are to be shamed, regulated and contained? Why sex positive people don’t just clarify this things and call themselves women’s sex positivism? It will solve so many issues, like unmet expectations.

    Latino cultures are known for being, how shall I put it in a way that doesn’t offend, particularly sensual.

    Be sexual but no be sensual is an interesting position for someone that is defending promiscuity.

    Personally I have always found Latino men to be too emotional, too licentious, too lecherous, too macho and too possessive for my liking. I’ve never ever been attracted to them and have turned down many an offer.

    What a coincidence. Me Too! The internet is so small.

  • Matt C

    I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.

    Men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Gotcha.

    Oh, you may find this site interesting.

    How Many Women Find Street Harassment Flattering?

    Wow, just wow. I’m convinced that this is a problem with American women.

    I’ll give you a couple examples from my life:

    When I was going to the gym one time, a couple guys waiting at a red light started berating me for looking like some faggot.

    I was on my bike coming back from my salsa class and some guys yelled out how I was riding a girl’s bike.

    One time in my gym class, a guy said I was one of the ugliest people he’s ever seen. Ironically, he was a very physically ugly person and I was SIGNIFICANTLY better looking than him.

    I have a lot more instances like this.

    Do I go online to bitch about this? No. It’s really a non-problem. Guys will shittalk from time to time and it is what it is.

    Not for the entitled American Princess. Oh no. They gotta bitch and complain about how sometimes men will do crazy things.

  • White Cloud

    “Didn’t happen to me, happened to a girl sitting next to me while my dad and her mother were present. Her mother was stunned speechless.”

    This is the problem. Too many civilized people are stunned speechless in front of uncivilized barbarians when they need to start kicking ass.

    Zero tolerance!

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Have to say, the one place in western society i still regularly see really ugly behaviour towards women is passing by building sites – the catcalling, making the women walking past uncomfortable of themselves & their bodies.

    I hate it, really hate it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I just spent the night at a very heated shit storm at manboobz. The crowd over there is surreal.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK. It was a different time. If that happened to my daughter I’d call the police immediately.

    Are you sure that’s all they did? I know kids aren’t always aware of the full extent of what mommy and daddy do in their lives (even now, I’m still learning), but is possible that they confronted or took some other action to rectify the situation?

    I’m curious because I think one of the problems with current society is that we’ve come to see the police as an option of first resort rather than a last resort option that our parents/grandparents might have. Both views and philosophies have (I think – still gathering data) an impact on society and laws.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Nate

      I know kids aren’t always aware of the full extent of what mommy and daddy do in their lives (even now, I’m still learning), but is possible that they confronted or took some other action to rectify the situation?

      It is possible, but my parents were not exactly helicopter parents. Some readers may recall my recent description of what our family life looked like after my mother took an “assertiveness training” course, which happened at around the same time. There was one year my parents forgot my birthday entirely. There was a lot of dysfunction in American families happening at that time, and the divorce rate soared. Amazingly, my own parents did not divorce, though I felt certain they would. Ultimately they became friends again. But I’m not exaggerating to describe life at that time like a Philip Roth novel, the movie The Ice Storm, or an episode of Mad Men. At least for the middle class.

  • xinamaelin

    Hi Susan,

    Well, for me that action captured the eyes of the people just to express their sentiments. I think its not a good way to show concern about what had happened to the world lately especially to the women’s right and justice. There are still great things to do in order to be visible to everybody.

  • rick

    Male creepiness = female fatness/ugliness.

    A fat girl hitting on you can make a guy uncomfortable.

    Btw: The chick in the picture can only DREAM of being an object of desire. The only thing that can save her is the Lightswitch Makeover.

  • tito

    @rick

    “Lightswitch Makeover”

    dude. that’s precious. kudos.

  • GudEnuf

    I know how smart you are, so I can only assume you’re being deliberately obtuse. I don’t care who Ozy pees on. I just reject her position that I should respect the act peeing on someone’s head, or celebrate urine play as a fulfilling exploration of one’s sexuality.

    You were placing urine play in the same category as polyamory. Now it’s no secret you think non-monogamy is bad for society, but how do you put urine play in the same category? Is it just because you think it’s gross?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      You were placing urine play in the same category as polyamory.

      That’s only because Ozy has written blog posts on those two topics recently. That was not intended as a general comment for everyone, it was addressed directly to Ozy because these are two choices she has made. When she says her choices should be respected and celebrated, I object to the notion that I should celebrate either or both of those things if they are not in keeping with my own values. I should be free to say, “Ewww, gross!” about urine play without being called intolerant, biased, narrow minded, etc. In fact, I’d rather not know about Ozy’s private sex acts at all, but such is the world of blogging.

  • GudEnuf

    Yahomi:

    I have not seen a feminist stating that men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for it.

    The Cuckolder in Chief has written an article titled: Why We Can’t Celebrate Male Sexuality…Yet

    He basically says that men deserve to have their sexuality shamed because some men are rapists. Just like Muslims deserve to have their faith shamed because some Muslims are terrorists…oh wait, Hugo doesn’t actually believe that.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “The Cuckolder in Chief has written an article titled: Why We Can’t Celebrate Male Sexuality…Yet

    He basically says that men deserve to have their sexuality shamed because some men are rapists. Just like Muslims deserve to have their faith shamed because some Muslims are terrorists…oh wait, Hugo doesn’t actually believe that.”

    He’s a noob. He needs to turn in his testicles at the Man Depot….

  • White Cloud

    Just like Muslims deserve to have their faith shamed because some Muslims are terrorists…oh wait, Hugo doesn’t actually believe that

    Being that he’s now a devout Christian, I wouldn’t be surprised if he did believe that.

  • Blues
    “The Cuckolder in Chief has written an article titled: Why We Can’t Celebrate Male Sexuality…Yet

    He basically says that men deserve to have their sexuality shamed because some men are rapists. Just like Muslims deserve to have their faith shamed because some Muslims are terrorists…oh wait, Hugo doesn’t actually believe that.”

    He’s a noob. He needs to turn in his testicles at the Man Depot….

    Why would he turn in something he’s using? let me make my point clear here, does anyone actually believe the whole found religion and feminism thing? from his obvious hypocrisy i’d say that’s just his cover while he keeps doing the same thing he did in before in the 90’s, way better strategy than “i was drunk and can’t remember” because women wearing the blindfold of feminism would actually support him for his BS instead of accusing him if he ever was called on it.

  • White Cloud

    “Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another.”

    I was trying to educate you that American sensibilities are not transferable. You were the one that brought the cultures with a lot of catcalling and I told you that in this culture we don’t consider men expressing their sexuality a problem so big that no woman can solve in a personal basis.

    Stephanie, where did I write anywhere about “American sensibilities”? I said, “all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another”.

    That Dominican women think catcalling is no big deal and even welcome it is NOT transferable to the entire world.

    I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.

    Matt C,

    Men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Gotcha.

    Matt C, I never said men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Knock yourself out expressing your desire to your partner. I fully support that. The public sphere is not the place to express sexual desire to strangers, and in many cultures the public sphere is not the place to express sexual desire even to your spouse.

    Wow, just wow. I’m convinced that this is a problem with American women.

    I’ll give you a couple examples from my life:

    When I was going to the gym one time, a couple guys waiting at a red light started berating me for looking like some faggot.

    I was on my bike coming back from my salsa class and some guys yelled out how I was riding a girl’s bike.

    One time in my gym class, a guy said I was one of the ugliest people he’s ever seen. Ironically, he was a very physically ugly person and I was SIGNIFICANTLY better looking than him.

    I have a lot more instances like this.

    Do I go online to bitch about this? No. It’s really a non-problem. Guys will shittalk from time to time and it is what it is.

    Not for the entitled American Princess. Oh no. They gotta bitch and complain about how sometimes men will do crazy things.

    Again, that you received 2 or 22 unwanted comments from random guys over the course of your life riding a bike or whatever is not what I’m talking about. I clearly stated that when public space becomes DOMINATED by catcalls and other unwanted advances, then it is most def a case wherein organized social sanction is called for.

    Convinced this is a “problem” only with American women? You’d be wrong. There are MANY cultures around the world wherein the “expression of sexual desire” in the public sphere is not socially acceptable. Sometimes even if that desire is mutal.

    Why the problem with separating the public and private sphere? Are we so narcisstic that every little thought and “gimme-gimme-i-want” must be broadcast?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Can we just not talk too much about that twit hugo? Really I always though that a) hating on something you don’t like is a waste of energy/time/money and b) ignoring a clear attention whore is better than paying attention to him/her. He obviously gets off on thinking people are talking about him. Let’s pay him with our indifference, YMMV.

  • White Cloud

    “I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.”

    Matt C, “Men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Gotcha.”

    I never implied that. Knock yourself expressing your sexual desire to your partner, in the privacy of your own space. I don’t wanna see sexual desire, even of the mutual kind, expressed in the pubic sphere. Sexual expression is meant for the private sphere, not the public. Its narcisstic to assume the entire world wants to see your sexual expression.

    “Wow, just wow. I’m convinced that this is a problem with American women.”

    You, like Stephanie, are grossly mistaken. There are MANY cultures around the world where catcalling strangers and even expression of sexual desire between couples in the public sphere are unwelcome and even considered subversive to the traditional social order.

    “When I was going to the gym one time, a couple guys waiting at a red light started berating me for looking like some faggot.

    I was on my bike coming back from my salsa class and some guys yelled out how I was riding a girl’s bike.

    One time in my gym class, a guy said I was one of the ugliest people he’s ever seen. Ironically, he was a very physically ugly person and I was SIGNIFICANTLY better looking than him.

    I have a lot more instances like this.

    Do I go online to bitch about this? No. It’s really a non-problem. Guys will shittalk from time to time and it is what it is.

    Not for the entitled American Princess. Oh no. They gotta bitch and complain about how sometimes men will do crazy things.”

    Again, it has nothing to do with America.

    That you were on the receiving end of unsolicited negative comments from random guys 2 or 22 times over the course of your life while riding a bike or going about other business is not relevant. I am not talking about something that happens time to time. I am talking about when public space becomes DOMINATED by catcalls or unsolicited negative comments. That is the time when organized social backlash is neccessary.

  • jess

    say whaaat re wtf.
    .
    i was making a crap joke by pretending to be your friend who was groped in public

  • White Cloud

    ”Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another.”

    Stephanie, ”I was trying to educate you that American sensibilities are not transferable. You were the one that brought the cultures with a lot of catcalling and I told you that in this culture we don’t consider men expressing their sexuality a problem so big that no woman can solve in a personal basis.”

    LOL! Who said anything about “American sensibilities”?

    That Dominican women don’t see catcalling as a big deal and even enjoy it is NOT transferable to every corner of the globe.

  • jess

    Susan said: “It happens when a woman has second thoughts and says “Stop!” after sex has already begun. According to the law, a man is required to withdraw at that point, and failing to do so constitutes rape.”
    .
    To Susan,
    You have ignored my last raft of questions but I appreciate you may not have time required to respond to everything.
    I do hope you can respond to this curve ball though….
    .
    You remember that frat guy you were fooling with and then had 2nd thoughts half way through?
    If he had ‘insisted’ that events had taken the course as nature had intended would that have been rape?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You remember that frat guy you were fooling with and then had 2nd thoughts half way through?
      If he had ‘insisted’ that events had taken the course as nature had intended would that have been rape?

      Actually, I don’t remember. I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. The guy with the micropenis? It’s true we were fooling around, but I never said I intended to have sex with him. I just said that we stopped suddenly when I couldn’t find his penis. Anyway, yes, if this theoretical person had insisted on sex by overpowering me physically it would most certainly have been rape. Just insisting with words is no big deal, I’ve dealt with that many times, lol.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    LOL! Who said anything about “American sensibilities”?

    That Dominican women don’t see catcalling as a big deal and even enjoy it is NOT transferable to every corner of the globe.

    Of course how we see it is not transferable EITHER,you were the one that brought catcalling in other cultures. What was your point on that example then?

  • jess

    to any women here:
    if you want to avoid cat calling or creepy behaviour avoid wearing dresses- or tight leggings.
    .
    I find wearing a dress even now has frankly ridiculous effects in guys. Consequently, even in the summer, I often don’t wear them.
    .
    Guys say things, supposedly under the breath, yet clearly audible- really sexually graphic stuff.
    .
    but its the gawping that is so …..I dunno…its hard to respect somebody thats drooling. Why do legs or a bum have such an impact?
    .
    And a tip for the guys- when a girl goes up to the bar and you stare at her ass you should know that due to window reflections or glassware reflections- she’s seeing you do it. And she’s also seeing you do it to all the other girls in the room.
    .
    And you are going home ALONE- I can assure you.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “You remember that frat guy you were fooling with and then had 2nd thoughts half way through?
    If he had ‘insisted’ that events had taken the course as nature had intended would that have been rape?”

    Fooling with a frat boy? Ugh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Fooling with a frat boy? Ugh.

      I was going to say it was very different then (1977), but he was actually a douche. So I’m guilty as charged.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    but its the gawping that is so …..I dunno…its hard to respect somebody thats drooling. Why do legs or a bum have such an impact?

    You’ve never found yourself transfixed by a work of art?

    You may as well ask why people like to gaze at majestic scenery or beautiful works of art.

    Not that I’m saying women are the equivalent (well… some might be), but if you have to ask why another human being enjoys looking at something beautiful, then one is forced to conclude that you are neither a human being nor have you spent much time around them.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Not that I’m saying women are the equivalent (well… some might be), but if you have to ask why another human being enjoys looking at something beautiful, then one is forced to conclude that you are neither a human being nor have you spent much time around them.

    Nah I think she is just a straight woman. Us possessors of bums and legs don’t think they are the big deal.
    But then women can drool at the sight of a very beautiful man so maybe we should ask her if she ever saw a man that made her drool. I know I have.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Nah I think she is just a straight woman. Us possessors of bums and legs don’t think they are the big deal.
    But then women can drool at the sight of a very beautiful man so maybe we should ask her if she ever saw a man that made her drool. I know I have.

    That’s exactly what I meant. If she’s done the same, then surely it won’t be that hard to grasp why.

    While I know no girls check me out (because my true form crushes sanities), I at least get the principle of them doing so (well to other guys at least).

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    @Susan – you have my sympathies.

    Some readers may recall my recent description of what our family life looked like after my mother took an “assertiveness training” course, which happened at around the same time.

    That seems… odd (yet strangely appropriate) that your mother after this “assertiveness training” (I recall that thread) seems to have taken out more on your dad than on a man legitimately in need of some assertive confrontation. Maybe less odd and more ironic. I’m sure there’s some thought you can pull a blog post out of there. ;)

  • Jennifer

    Amen, you know exactly what you’re talking about; nailed it! No one needs to see these foolish women, clothed or otherwise, and we don’t need to know who they give it to. Nor do I care to see heavy women, skinny nerd-looking women or multi-colored clownish women shouting about how they’ll give it to anyone, should anyone ask. Ugh.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    “I was going to say it was very different then (1977), but he was actually a douche. So I’m guilty as charged.”

    Ugh

  • Matt T

    I think it’s pretty funny that most of the women participating in slutwalks are pretty low on the SMV ladder. Probably because attractive women have no need to slut it up.

  • Jack

    Interview upon interview with actual rapists have shown that there is most definetly a twisted power element behind it.

    There are a lot of misconceptions about perpetrators of rape because much of the early profiling involved pathological rapists. That is, men who were predatory serial rapists. Of these, several types do seem to be motivated by a desire for power and control, but they don’t constitute the majority of rapists. There are also recognized types that appear to be motivated by a desire for intimacy. They’re often caught because they give the victims personal information about themselves a/o try to contact them again.

    @Susan
    A large percentage of sexual assault complaints are date rape, which is really a very, very different kind of animal….

    Yes. Rape is often opportunistic. The claim that rape is about power, or control, or some other imbalance in the social hierarchy is really just an attempt to shoehorn rape into a dialectic analysis of gender.

  • White Cloud

    jess says:
    July 25, 2011 at 2:00 pm
    to any women here:
    if you want to avoid cat calling or creepy behaviour avoid wearing dresses- or tight leggings.

    Great. Another mixed message. Susan tells us on her Summertime Femininity Challenge that we should wear pretty dresses this season, the guys all agree, and now you come with this. Wear a dress and get unwanted catcalls. Dress frumpy and get called a horrible manly woman who hates men and doesn’t know her role in life. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

    Regarding all the fat and ugly low SMV Slut Walkers, HELLO! That’s the whole point of Slut Walk! To show that no matter what we look like, how we dress, whether we are hot or not, simply being how we are is not asking for it!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Just want to say I’m sorry about all the comments going into moderation. Because I’m on vacation and have no real internet access, and because my husband is happy about that, I’ve not been online much, and I haven’t been fishing them out the way I normally do. It makes no sense – WordPress is wacked. FWIW, I’m whitelisting everyone I can so this happens less, or maybe even not at all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @White Cloud

      Great. Another mixed message. Susan tells us on her Summertime Femininity Challenge that we should wear pretty dresses this season, the guys all agree, and now you come with this.

      Jess nearly always suggests doing the opposite of my advice. You’re going to have to choose sides :)

      HELLO! That’s the whole point of Slut Walk! To show that no matter what we look like, how we dress, whether we are hot or not, simply being how we are is not asking for it!

      The original point of SlutWalk was only about dress, not SMV value. It was also an attempt to argue that prudence is unnecessary, or should be, in female behavior, a point I’ve argued against here several times. The fact that so many of the participants are physically unattractive is interesting, and at least somewhat surprising. It suggests to me that skimpy dress and aggressive behavior are the only way some of these women get any attention, which is what I see happening with slutty women in college as well.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    Matt C,

    “I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.”

    Men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Gotcha.

    It seems like you’re jumping the gun here a bit and going to extremes, perhaps being a bit too dramatic even. To me it makes sense that women may not respond too positively to some person she doesn’t know catcalling her in a crude, graphic manner and/or grabbing at her per White Cloud’s example. I’m sure that you’re aware of better, more public appropiate ways of expressing sexual desire. Like simple eye contact, a whistle, a hello, etc. Heck, a honk from a passing car is ok.

    And I don’t know about you, but being insulted and called names vs being catcalled and grabbed at seem like apples and oranges to me.

  • brightstormyday

    The whole slut walk is based around a police officer telling women,”If you don’t want to get raped, don’t dress like a slut.”

    Overall, though, the feminists failed at spreading the message. This is similar to the “Take Back the Night” parades they have– it’s just an excuse to walk around and shout for attention. It isn’t doing anything to help victims of assault, and neither will this slut walk. In fact, it might only make it worse, because people will argue against them for the sake of them being feminists, and therefore stupid.

    What feminists should be doing is sharing the statistics with people. The FACTS. The fact that in only 4.5% of cases of rape, the victim was doing something which could be considered provocative, as opposed to 22% of cases of murder. The fact that 1 in 3 college men have stated that they would rape a girl if they knew they wouldn’t get caught (which they won’t in the environment we have, an environment where if a girl drinks or spends time alone with a male she must also consent to having sex with him, and if she didn’t, it’s her fault for being alone with him in the first place, even if he was a long time friend). The fact that most rapists put on trial don’t remember what their victim was wearing. The fact that most victims are wearing things like jeans or pajamas when they’re assaulted. The fact that most victims are assaulted in a familiar place like their own home or their rapists’ home or a neighbor’s home. The fact that nearly 3/4 of all rapes are premeditated.

    People are going to victim blame. It’s called the just world hypothesis and it applies to everything from robberies to cancer to natural disasters to rape. It’s this naive belief that bad things can’t happen to good people, or that bad things can’t happen to people unless they were in some way asking for it. Every woman I know has done something that has put her “at risk” for getting raped, whether it’s being alone with a boy, talking to a strange man they had just met, drinking, wearing a skirt, walking alone at night, walking alone during the day, walking alone on an empty street at night or during the day, leaving her door unlocked, etc. One of the first things I learned at a Bible study group, and this was in response to people victim blaming the individuals from the Haiti earthquake (yes, they were victim blaming people over a natural disaster. SMH), was to ask myself why God had spared me of being a victim from other natural disasters. Victim blaming was covered in the Bible. And the Just world hypothesis was also refuted in the Book of Job. God already did these feminists’ jobs, so why don’t they just take a rest with the slut walk and stop ruining things for everyone?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    The fact that 1 in 3 college men have stated that they would rape a girl if they knew they wouldn’t get caught

    WTF – is this for real?

  • brightstormyday

    OMG Susan that micropenis story made my day.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “OMG Susan that micropenis story made my day.”

    LOL. Yea, it was the only enjoyable detail in an otherwise depressing tale.

  • brightstormyday

    Yohami,

    I’ve found the statistic several times, I can check up on it to see sample size and who the population group was (ie what university (s) the study was conducted at) to get a better idea of what’s going on, but it is real. That’s the frightening part. After seeing those statistics, I wonder why people even try to victim blame and I realize that if that percentage of men who would rape a woman if they could is even nearly that high (assuming the study isn’t 100% accurate) it is in their best interest for victim blaming to continue. So there will continue to be low reporting rates and low conviction rates and they can keep getting away with it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    1 in 3 guys is admitely pro rape? – which would bring the real, unreported number close to 50% of males being pro rape / a rape waiting to happen?

    Need some data on that “fact”

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I’ve found the statistic several times

    Please find it again? without data it sounds like a scary tale.

    I realize that if that percentage of men who would rape a woman if they could is even nearly that high (assuming the study isn’t 100% accurate) it is in their best interest for victim blaming to continue.

    Right, so now the “victim blaming” is done by the rapists themselves. So maybe that cop who called on the sexy clothing is a rapist himself. And the jurors, and the judge, so they all can keep raping. Nice.

  • Matt C

    Great. Another mixed message. Susan tells us on her Summertime Femininity Challenge that we should wear pretty dresses this season, the guys all agree, and now you come with this. Wear a dress and get unwanted catcalls. Dress frumpy and get called a horrible manly woman who hates men and doesn’t know her role in life. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

    It seems women here are hyper-focused on all the negatives.

    You want to know a positive to wearing a dress? You will be more attractive. Being more attractive increases your chance of being approached by an attractive man.

    By golly it seems that everything in life has good and bad attributes. Of course, this sense of entitlement I’m feeling from some of the comments gets in the way of having a positive attitude about this.

  • Matt C

    1 in 3 guys is admitely pro rape? – which would bring the real, unreported number close to 50% of males being pro rape / a rape waiting to happen?

    Need some data on that “fact”

    What do you think about the “1 in 4 women are raped in their lifetime” statistic?

    I’m curious of your opinion on that statistic.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Hey Susan.
    Is there any chance the guy was actually a woman on transition? I don’t have much experience with penises but not finding it…sounds like too much like an anomaly from what I heard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie

      Is there any chance the guy was actually a woman on transition? I don’t have much experience with penises but not finding it…sounds like too much like an anomaly from what I heard.

      Oh boy, this penis size topic is one of Jess’ favorites. No, he was not in transition. He was an extraordinarily handsome fraternity president. I eventually did find his penis, and erect it was the size of my thumb. It is rare, but a real condition that some men have. I had no intention of going all the way with him in any case, so it was not all that awkward. The good news is that I googled him a couple of years ago, and found a pic of his gorgeous wife and daughter in a community newspaper in California. He appears to have a happy and successful life.

  • brightstormyday

    Ok, not everyone, not everyone. I’m just saying that a vocal fraction of men might actually have either:
    1) Some very mistaken beliefs about consent.
    2) A large amount of sexual frustration.
    3) A mental disorder where they derive sexual pleasure from forcing a woman.*

    And the statistic is from the book Campus Crime: Legal, Social, and Policy Perspectives, written by a Sloan and Fisher. Sorry, I kept finding it on flyers but at the bottom they would cite their sources. Can do more digging if you need to.

    http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php
    “8% of men admit committing acts that meet the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Of these men who committed rape, 84% said that what they did was definitely not rape. ”

    *Again, feminists fail in that they reduce rape to power and control (which it can be, but not always), and the sphere and most people fail in that they reduce rape into the biological act of sex (which it always isn’t because, according to studies, rapists don’t always ejaculate…). Psychologists basically have multiple reasons, for why it happens. All are disturbing.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt C,

    What do you think about the “1 in 4 women are raped in their lifetime” statistic?

    That would mean that 25% of the women were have been raped. In Susan´s family, 25% of her relatives being raped. 25% of all the women I have interacted, being raped. I did a party at my apartment last week and abou 20 females came, so, 5 of them being raped, etc. I dont see it.

    Maybe they are including all kinds of uncomfortable experiences as “rape” to inflate the number.

    But, lets say 30% of men are rapists. Rapist are usually serial, they rape more than one women on their lifetime. If the media was 3 rapes during a lifetime, that would lead to 90% of all women being raped. Including your mom, and mine, and pretty much every woman you know.

    I need to see where is this stuff coming from.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    *That would mean that 25% of the women here have been raped.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention

    …but that’s just it! So many men these days are incapable of expressing their interest in a socially appropriate manner.

    I don’t dress like a slut, go clubbing late at night, or participate in promiscuous activities. I’m a classy well behaved young woman.

    – yet I somehow manage to have a ridiculously long list of creepy things men have done to me. Like, in broad daylight, I’ve had businessmen in suits who look like they should know better proposition me for sex, offer to take me shopping [I assume in exchange for sex], inappropriately touch me…this one time I had a guy approach me and inquire about the color of my panties.

    Following a creepy-incident, I’m always left wondering “What is wrong with this man? Doesn’t he realize how creepy he is?” I don’t think creepy guys even realize most women find their behavior creepy.

    Wear a dress and get unwanted catcalls. Dress frumpy and get called a horrible manly woman who hates men and doesn’t know her role in life. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

    Actually, a significant amount of men seem to absolutely love the Southern California-laid back messy hair-sorta frumpy look. I’ve noticed I get a lot more male attention when I’m just wearing flip-flops, baggy sweats and a tank-top. I think casually dressed women seem more approachable to men.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    cough.

    http://www.oneinfourusa.org, men against rape? theres a picture with 20 guys there. 4 of them have raped, 2 more of them are pro rape as long as they dont get caught?

    More than one in five men report “becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent.”

    35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn’t be caught or punished. (9)
    One out of every 500 college students is infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

    35% of the guys on this blog are pro rape? really?

    Do we need mass castration and gas chambers?

  • brightstormyday

    The statistic isn’t that 1 in 3 men are rapists, it’s that 1 in 3 said they would if they could. 1 in 15 have done things that fit the legal definition of rape. Most of them don’t believe they actually raped.

    If you also read the website it states more specifically that 15% of college women survive rape. I think the 1 in 4 includes attempted rape, not “uncomfortable experiences.” If you were to include uncomfortable experiences I think the statistic would inflate to nearly 100%. Every woman has those.

    I do believe the statistic. I know a lot of people that unfortunately have been in that…situation. You’re a man, a woman would probably avoid telling you because it’s something that would lower her in your eyes and ruin her SMV. I’m not saying that that’s what should happen, I’m saying that that’s what does happen. Being realistic.

    Also, again, before people start saying that girls that are raped are sluts and asking for it, notice the statistic that states that nearly half were virgins at the time. k thanks.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    The link says 1 in 5 men already raped, 3 in 5 could if given a chance.

  • brightstormyday

    @Butterfly Flower:

    I know what you mean. Virtually every girl has at least one creepy story about some loser. I’ve spent all day fixing my computer because I got hacked by some loser I rejected. I feel ya girrrl.

    (And what is it with the casual look? I feel like I can go out and wear a dress and heels and no one looks at me. And then I go to the grocery store in soffes and a baggy shirt and randos come up and talk to me. wth?)

  • Matt C

    The statistic isn’t that 1 in 3 men are rapists, it’s that 1 in 3 said they would if they could. 1 in 15 have done things that fit the legal definition of rape. Most of them don’t believe they actually raped.

    If you also read the website it states more specifically that 15% of college women survive rape. I think the 1 in 4 includes attempted rape, not “uncomfortable experiences.” If you were to include uncomfortable experiences I think the statistic would inflate to nearly 100%. Every woman has those.

    I do believe the statistic. I know a lot of people that unfortunately have been in that…situation. You’re a man, a woman would probably avoid telling you because it’s something that would lower her in your eyes and ruin her SMV. I’m not saying that that’s what should happen, I’m saying that that’s what does happen. Being realistic.

    Also, again, before people start saying that girls that are raped are sluts and asking for it, notice the statistic that states that nearly half were virgins at the time. k thanks.

    This means that any woman who had sex while drunk got raped. That is actually what the 1 in 4 statistic used to include the number of women who got raped.

    Do you honestly believe that women who have sex while drunk are getting raped, even IF they initiate sex? Do you believe that?

  • White Cloud

    After reader some of the male bloggers out there, I totally believe those statistics. When many men approach even consensual sex from a point of anger and power struggle, you know that rape for them is not entirely out of the question. Then you’ve got the men who download rape porn. Oh boy.

  • filrabat

    @Butterfly Power

    Creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention

    …but that’s just it! So many men these days are incapable of expressing their interest in a socially appropriate manner.

    The problem is that even the term “socially appropriate” is very subjective. Whose social appropriateness? If the woman’s, then which woman? Just because you have a certain definition and/or criteria for “creepy” does not mean all or even most women will share your criteria? On top of that, there’s the cultural changes over the past 40 or so years – a lot of them VERY contradictory. How can so many women say a run of the mill so-called “loser” guy (as in fashion image and “irritating but non-rude mannerisms, plus non-telegenic lifestyle to boot) be called “creepy” for approaching her; yet at the same time be seduced by the douchebag who says “you make me jizz in my pants”, stick her tongue in her ear within 2 minutes of meeting her at a club, etc.?

    (Not to put words into your mouth, or tell you what you ought to think..but to provide one answer that’s at least semi-true)

    The only way I know of to reconcile these is to say she’s frankly an image bigot who doubles as a whore – not just mere non-attraction to the “irritating” guy, but a downright BIGOTED beliefs toward anything with even moderate superficial un-appeal. And, of course, she’ll sleep with any guy that gets her panties wet. Nothing in human nature prevents a person from being both at the same time, after all.

    I’m not saying YOU are like that, nor the great majority of women. However, it is a fairly common occurrence.

    What all the above means

    That proves that BOTH genders have to think long and hard about just who they choose to not only hook up with or date….but even have for same gendered friends. After all, the latter heavily influences which potential romantic interests we DO cross our life’s paths with. As I said a few of Susan’s blog articles ago, apparently you CAN judge people by the company they keep. In fact, I’ll go further and say that you reveal what your values and life’s priorities are by whom you choose to have as your friends…and whom you choose as your heroes besides, and the kinds of books you read, etc.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White,

    After reader some of the male bloggers out there, I totally believe those statistics. When many men approach even consensual sex from a point of anger and power struggle, you know that rape for them is not entirely out of the question.

    Is that 1 in 3 male blogs? links?

  • MaMu1977

    This is for Susan.

    Three years ago, I was living in Europe. During my time over there. I (hypothetically) enjoyed the attentions of more than a few women between the ages of 27-45 who were in open relationships (hypothetically, I enjoyed their attentions due to the lack of ambiguity.) I also attended more than my share of beaches and pools (the majority of which were either top-optional or nude, and I visited them due to the lack of air conditioning on the Continent.) In my experience, FKK (from naturists to actual swingers) people are no more likely to be ugly/unattractive than anyone else. Then again, I don’t know any American dabblers. If the alternative lifestylers in the US are as unkempt and unfit as their vanilla counterparts, then I apologise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @MaMu1977
      I believe the reason for your different experience is that nudity in general is more acceptable in Europe, so women with high SMV engage in it. In the U.S. nude beaches are just a tiny percentage of beaches – people have to go out of their way to have that experience. And yes, my guess is that those women are as unfit than their counterparts. In general, though, high SMV women are unlikely to pursue alternate lifestyles – unless they’re wired like men hormonally, which some are.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Then you’ve got the men who download rape porn. Oh boy.

    Do you know that rape fantasy are common among women too? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean

  • Matt C

    After reader some of the male bloggers out there, I totally believe those statistics. When many men approach even consensual sex from a point of anger and power struggle, you know that rape for them is not entirely out of the question. Then you’ve got the men who download rape porn. Oh boy.

    Here’s some sobering information for your misandrist view of society. When the 1 in 4 study was looked at more closely it was found:

    “The Toledo reporters calculated that if you eliminate the affirmative responses to the alcohol or drugs question, and also subtract from Koss’s results the women who did not think they were raped, her one in four figure for rape and attempted rape “drops to between one in twenty-two and one in thirty-three.”[25]”

    Source: http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

    So IN REALITY, AT MOST, 4% of the female population at colleges are getting raped and I’m convinced that it is even smaller than that.

    This flies in the face of the statistic that 33% of men in college want to rape women. If 33% of men in college wanted to rape women then wouldn’t more than 4% of females get raped?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C
      The rebuttal to the rape stats is by Christina Hoff Sommers, a highly intelligent and respected academic who was booted out of the feminist corps a while ago for daring to question the effect of the girl power self-esteem movement on young boys.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    The statistic isn’t that 1 in 3 men are rapists, it’s that 1 in 3 said they would if they could. 1 in 15 have done things that fit the legal definition of rape. Most of them don’t believe they actually raped.

    See, I’m curious more about what was the “set up”. For instance, if you ask a guy “would you rape if you could get away with it” is he thinking about just any random person or a level 10 model/actress – a highly desirable woman. Whereas I’d be willing to bet that statistic would fall if you made it clear their only “opening” would be a highly undesirable woman (ugly, old, underage, whatever).

    I’d like to see this study done with accompanying pictures. Including headshots alone (some with makeup/photoshop to make them more beautiful, some “plain” or photoshopped to make them more ugly) and full body shots of the same women dressed in various outfits.

    Also, as pointed out here, what was the definition of ‘rape’ used? Are the interviewees being asked about forceful taking while the victim screams and protests? Or more of a girl is inebriated kind? Quite frankly, with some of the legal definitions of rape, it would be just as likely for 1 in 3 girls to go for it if they could get away with it. I’d like to see a similar study with girls done considering all the factors I mentioned above.

    And that’s all ignoring the tendency of college guys to be kind of “trolls” and whether or not some of them would answer affirmative just to laugh at the researchers (but might not do something when actually confronted with it).

    How can so many women say a run of the mill so-called “loser” guy (as in fashion image and “irritating but non-rude mannerisms, plus non-telegenic lifestyle to boot) be called “creepy” for approaching her; yet at the same time be seduced by the douchebag who says “you make me jizz in my pants”, stick her tongue in her ear within 2 minutes of meeting her at a club, etc.?

    As demonstrated here? ;)

  • brightstormyday

    @MattC:

    Where did it state that that was included in the statistic? In addition, do you think that those cases make up the majority of rapes?

    I do not think that if a woman has a few drinks, then consents to sex, it is rape. However, I don’t think the situation is as black and white as,”A stranger jumps out of a bush with a knife and forces himself on a woman!” I’ve had things happen to friends that would fit in the “gray” areas. ie one friend had a male friend she had known walk her back one night because he was worried she wouldn’t make it back okay. When she got back to her room he forced himself on her. She never reported it, but it was rape, and it took months before she admitted that it was rape because she felt that admitting it would be admitting she was weak. I have another friend who was left behind by “friends” at a party after passing out on a couch and things happened to her. The next day she got plan B but didn’t report it. In both cases these girls weren’t sober, but I do believe that in both cases, crimes happened. Another friend of mine was knocked unconscious (in public) and when her friends moved her to a couch to make sure she was okay, the same idiot who knocked her unconscious tried to force himself on her. I couldn’t believe my ears when I heard this, and there were witnesses. I do believe that what happened there was at the least, assault, and at the worst, attempted rape. She spent the day in a hospital with a concussion (yes this happened during the day).

    Girls also have to be careful because, since offenders know that roofies and GHB can be detected via testing, medications like klonopin and xanax are being used as an alternate date rape drug. In addition, mixed drinks may contain everclear instead of vodka, essentially to render potential victims unconscious more quickly. I do think if someone is drugged unwillingly or unconscious, it is rape.

    I don’t know anyone who ever claimed that having drunken sex was rape (besides feminists on a website). I’ve heard more of the cases I’ve just described, and the judicial authority on campus stated that most of the cases they deal with involve male “friends” that get “frustrated” and won’t take it anymore from these “sluts.”

  • Butterfly Flower

    This flies in the face of the statistic that 33% of men in college want to rape women. If 33% of men in college wanted to rape women then wouldn’t more than 4% of females get raped?

    How exactly did the study define “wanting to commit rape”? When a man wants to walk up to an attractive woman, undress her, and proceed to have sex with her?

    …uh, isn’t that a normal male thought?

    When I’m with my boyfriend, I’m sure he spends a lot of time thinking about taking off my clothes and ravishing me. That doesn’t make him a potential rapist.

  • Butterfly Flower

    [I need to remember to refresh the page before I post]

    @Nate: I agree with you. If the study’s definition of rape was cloudy or misleading, then the statistics are useless.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Nate: I agree with you. If the study’s definition of rape was cloudy or misleading, then the statistics are useless.

    Well this organizations receive a lot of money to “prevent rape” the moment they don’t have numbers to back it up, they are going to probably get cut. So I think that is why they keep broading the definition of rape, as rape (forced sexual relationship in the original sense of the word) is becoming less and less common to make sure that as long there is heterosexual males there is going to be some way to consider any act with a female rape. If this trend continue you will find that in a few years “staring” will be count as rape too.

  • brightstormyday

    @Matt C:

    I have a female friend who was forcibly raped and didn’t believe she was because she knew the individual who did it. In terms of statistics of girls who do not believe they were raped, I’d like to see how many said they don’t believe they were raped for reasons like:
    a) they knew the individual
    b) they were wearing a short skirt/top with cleavage/other revealing outfit
    c) they were intoxicated (even if they said no over and over and did not consent to sex ever)
    d) they were unconscious

    because I have friends who did not believe they were “truly raped” for these reasons, yet went on to suffer psychological repercussions all the same, to the point where one nearly failed out of school because the guy was in her classes. The other talked about suicide.

    I’m just curious.

    And I think the 1 in 3 statistic is legit, though there might be a few trolls, and also take into account that most guys won’t do it, either because of guilt, or because of x,y,z reason. I think most guys, to look tough, for example, say they’ll be able to kill someone if they had to (in self defense) yet I think most won’t. I think the same would go for rape. A large number say they would, very few actually would. I had a friend who was doing training to be a student counselor, and while they were playing an ethics game (which involved standing on one side of the room for yes, and the other for no) nearly every man (and some women) believed that if a girl said no to sex, she did not really mean it. There have to be some official statistics on this.

    @Nate Winchester:

    Girls probably wouldn’t do it. First of all, it isn’t in women’s nature to be violent. This is why more men commit murders as well, along with violent crimes. This is also why it’s so easy to abuse or rape a woman. Well, you would think not easy (for psychological reasons), but we’re assuming a sick or socially handicapped individual here. Second of all, women don’t really think in terms of sex the way men do, or as often as men do. Thirdly, it’s easier for a woman to obtain sex if she does.

    @Stephenie Rowling:

    A woman’s rape fantasy can be turned off at any time.

    The reality of rape, is that if you are raped, you don’t get to choose your aggressor, you don’t get to choose how or where it happens, you don’t get to choose whether he has HIV or herpes or other STD’s, or whether you get pregnant or not, you don’t get to choose how it happens, or scream,”Safe word!” to get him to stop.

    A fantasy can be turned on or off or controlled. Rape can’t. That’s what makes it rape.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    stormy,

    Re: your friends. Of course some women get raped. It happens. We are talking about statistics.

    I think most guys, to look tough, for example, say they’ll be able to kill someone if they had to (in self defense) yet I think most won’t. I think the same would go for rape.

    Bad reasoning. There´s no “rape on self defense”. One doesnt say “yes I will rape if I needed to” to look tough. Thats feminist nonsense – reaching to strawman fallacy by now.

    First of all, it isn’t in women’s nature to be violent.

    Wrong.

    A woman’s rape fantasy can be turned off at any time.

    The point Stephie did was that some women also consume rape porn, in response a white who pointed that some males consume rape porn.

    You´re starting to sound brainwashed. Quit college.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    A fantasy can be turned on or off or controlled. Rape can’t. That’s what makes it rape.

    Oh what I meant was that WC was accusing men that download porn of being potential rapists. I just mentioned this because having a rape fantasy doesn’t mean that you will actually want it to, or plan for it to happen in real life. Of course I know fantasies are fantasies I just meant that men shouldn’t be accused of being potential rapists because of downloading rape porn, YMMV.

  • White Cloud

    Filrabrat, I agree with you about the arbitrariness of what constitutes creepy or not creepy and the conflicting messages sent to men. I think there needs to be a Charm School for Teenage Boys so they can learn how to approach girls in an attractive and socially acceptable way. Of course some basic standards would have to be agreed upon what is attractive and socially acceptable.

    But we women get constant mixed messages from the media, society and men too. Just here on this blog Susan advised us to wear pretty dresses this summer, the men thumbs upped that and then a commenter recently posts that if we want to avoid disrespectful catcalls, DON’T wear dresses. That dresses somehow “rev” men up. Of course if men get revved up its our fault. We dressed that way on purpose. Maybe next time we shouldn’t look so delicious and then we won’t get bothered. OK. So then we dress down and get called un-feminine slobs brainwashed by the misandrist media who know nothing about womanhood or what it takes to attract a good man. Moreover we’re on a campaign to stomp out feminine beauty and “force” all beta men into accepting unattractive women as cuckholded fathers of other men’s children, after we’re done riding the alpha cock carousel of course!

    Then of course there’s all the claims that men like good girls with self-control but then we see them happily coverting with the “hot” girls, good or bad, self-control or no control. Character be damned. Then when the hot girls break their hearts they get online and complain that all women are heartless bitches and gosh by golley they are going to become players now! And its not their fault if an innocent woman falls in love with them and they dump her – its “womens fault” for being hypergamous bitches in the first place. The poor girl has to cut her losses and move on.

    I tell you if I was never confused and bewildered in my entire life, I certainly am now!

  • Matt C

    Girls probably wouldn’t do it. First of all, it isn’t in women’s nature to be violent. This is why more men commit murders as well, along with violent crimes. This is also why it’s so easy to abuse or rape a woman. Well, you would think not easy (for psychological reasons), but we’re assuming a sick or socially handicapped individual here. Second of all, women don’t really think in terms of sex the way men do, or as often as men do. Thirdly, it’s easier for a woman to obtain sex if she does.

    Hmm, then I wonder why about 40% of domestic abuse is reported to happen to males? Hmm…

    Here’s another interesting report:

    http://www.mediaradar.org/mcdowell_kanin_credible.php

    “Even so, McDowell worried that his findings might not be representative outside a military context. So he then analyzed the police records of a major midwestern city and a city in the southwest. The results in those cities were consistent with the results of the Air Force analysis. But the cities feared political repercussions if it were publicly announced that 60% of reported rape allegations were false, so they requested anonymity.”

    Maybe, just maybe, men aren’t the monsters you believe them to be. And, just follow me here, women aren’t perfect little angels.

    I believe most people, men and women, are good at heart. It just makes me so angry how demonized men have been made out to be and how everyone seems to believe that women are the only ones who can be victims of any wrongdoing.

  • brightstormyday

    @ButterflyFlower:

    At what point did you mix up the word “sex” with the word “rape?”

    If a man were to PROCEED TO HAVE SEX with a woman, then it would be consensual. She would be CONSENTING. If your boyfriend imagines that, he imagines you CONSENTING to having sex with him. He ISN’T imagining raping you.

    Rape involves a woman saying she doesn’t want to have sex, or incapable of consent (ie sleeping, unconscious, a child, or unable to consent due to a mental disability of sorts…). So if these 1 in 3 men were truly thinking rape, then they were thinking of either:
    a) having intercourse with (more like to, with implies that both are participating) someone unconscious
    b) forcibly raping a woman
    c) fucking a retard

    This isn’t misandry, men. You did this to yourself. Next time a survey comes around, don’t say yes!
    @MattC:
    And again, just because a woman doesn’t feel she was raped, because it was “her fault” for one of the reasons I stated above, doesn’t mean she wasn’t. Imagine all the women who are abused, and stay with their abusive husbands because “I had it coming. I shouldn’t have looked him in the eye. I deserved being punched.” Imagine all the children who are sexually molested (most rapists have a history of being molested) and don’t say anything, because they think it’s right, and they’ll trust anyone older than them. Most girls are raped by someone they know. Most women who are raped, are young when it happens, and are probably away from home for the first time in their lives. They might even still be home! Most of the time, it happens in their own homes. Most of the time, it’s with someone they know. Nearly half the time, they’re virgins. Half the time, it’s on a date.

    Their whole lives they were raised in a world that says,”Be liberated! Dress however you want! Wear makeup! Go out on dates without a chaperone! Girls and boys can be just friends! It’s normal for friends to be alone together!” Then the world turns around and says,”You were raped? Why were you wearing that skirt? Why were you out on a date? Why did you have that wine? Why were you friends with a boy? Did you flirt with him? Why were you alone with him? Why did you let him into your home? (or) Why did you go home with him?”

    What is she supposed to think? Clearly, she was attacked. Clearly, someone forced himself on her. Clearly, she did something wrong. Because if it’s her fault her forced himself on her, then she should have known better. All men are violent. All men are aggressive. All men are potential rapists. No woman should be alone, ever. Correct?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stormy,

    Why were you wearing that skirt? Why were you out on a date? Why did you have that wine? Why were you friends with a boy? Did you flirt with him? Why were you alone with him? Why did you let him into your home? (or) Why did you go home with him?”

    Questioning the victim is not the same as blaming the victim.

    What separates rape from regular sex is lack of consent. To determine a rape occurred you have to demostrate there was lack of consent. This is easier or harder to prove depending on the scenario. You cant take the victim´s word as a rule, since people regularly lie.

    So what kind of stuff would you investigate, ask, gather data about, to prove lack of consent? Or would you just take the victim´s word as proof?

  • Matt C

    You have lost touch with reality.

    Also, wanted to say on my previous comment that I don’t believe that 60% of rape allegations are false. I just don’t believe that as many as 98% are true (feminist statistic).

    Interestingly enough, the 60% of rape allegations are false, came from a more objective standpoint than the 2% are false one.

  • White Cloud

    I’m not going to click on the female rape fantasy link for the following reasons;

    1. I can tell you that the studies were done in, at most, a small handful of western countries such as USA, UK, Cananda, Australia or Germany or someplace near.

    2. The sample size is small, ranging anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand women.

    3. The so-called “rape” is actually a fantasy of alluring seduction and passionate consensual sex with a highly attractive man that the woman desires.

    The above 3 factors get misleadingly get called “rape” and an internet meme of “all women around the world from Zimbabwe to Peru, Tibet to Polynesia, get off on rape fantasies”

    Now, if you want to see a “rape fantasy” then download some “rape porn” and see what some men are jacking off too. Ever seen a snuff film? Prepare yourself to throw up, have nightmares and be psychologically disturbed for days.

  • brightstormyday

    @MattC:

    I’m not saying that nothing can happen to men. A surprisingly high percentage of men do get raped. And I realize that if a man is raped (by a woman, especially), he’s going to face some difficulties. He’s going to be called weak. He’s going to be emasculated. He mgiht not be taken seriously. I think victim blaming needs to be stopped all around, which is why I referenced the Bible earlier. People need Jesus.

    But these statistics are true. Men are more violent. Single men are more violent. These statistics are valuable because they can tell us more about violence in a demographic in which people are postponing marriage or just cancelling it out of their future plans completely. And it can also tell us a lot about countries like India and China which are starting to have extremely skewed sex ratios (and increased violence). Men are more likely to murder (though usually the victims are male as well), men are more likely to rape, men are more likely to commit violent crimes. Men are more likely to die young from stupid risky activities (drugs, bad driving, etc.) Men are more likely to kill their stepchild (if it’s under the age of 5). This doesn’t justify the behavior. It doesn’t say that all men are murderers, or that all men are rapists, or that all men are violent. But it can help us understand and manage crime and find ways to deal with the target populations. It can hopefully get certain societies to avoid skewing the gender ratio one way or the other (America might be skewing slightly female). It can help us understand hyper behavior in young boys and to get schools to stop overdiagnosing them with learning disabilities and ADHD. It’s also a case for encouraging marriage, since married people tend to be less crazy than single ones, all around.

    And yes, recently, there have been rising incidences of female violence. Some studies show that the gender differences in terms of crime might be societally determined rather than hormonally determined, but they have small sample sizes and we have yet to see any more evidence.The thing is, if you’re going to accept that they are societally determined, then you have to accept that many other “female” and “male” behaviors, the good ones, are societally determined as well.

    And, as a side note, I don’t hate men. Not at all. Personally I want ot have lots of kids, with at least 3 being boys. It’ll be funny.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “People need Jesus.”

    and I’m here for them, brightstormyday.

  • Butterfly Flower

    At what point did you mix up the word “sex” with the word “rape?” If a man were to PROCEED TO HAVE SEX with a woman, then it would be consensual. She would be CONSENTING

    I didn’t mix up the definitions of the words. However, the “Potential Rapist” statistic study may have asked misleading questions.

    For all we know the study could have interpreted “thinking about having sex with an attractive woman” as “wanting to rape an attractive woman”.

    My boyfriend thinks about taking my clothes off; using those guidelines, doesn’t that make him a “potential rapist”?

    & on the topic of Rapists, I will link to an informative 20 year old NY Times article that profiled actual sentenced rapists: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/10/science/new-studies-map-the-mind-of-the-rapist.html?src=pm

  • Matt C

    But these statistics are true. Men are more violent. Single men are more violent. These statistics are valuable because they can tell us more about violence in a demographic in which people are postponing marriage or just cancelling it out of their future plans completely. And it can also tell us a lot about countries like India and China which are starting to have extremely skewed sex ratios (and increased violence). Men are more likely to murder (though usually the victims are male as well), men are more likely to rape, men are more likely to commit violent crimes. Men are more likely to die young from stupid risky activities (drugs, bad driving, etc.) Men are more likely to kill their stepchild (if it’s under the age of 5). This doesn’t justify the behavior. It doesn’t say that all men are murderers, or that all men are rapists, or that all men are violent. But it can help us understand and manage crime and find ways to deal with the target populations. It can hopefully get certain societies to avoid skewing the gender ratio one way or the other (America might be skewing slightly female). It can help us understand hyper behavior in young boys and to get schools to stop overdiagnosing them with learning disabilities and ADHD. It’s also a case for encouraging marriage, since married people tend to be less crazy than single ones, all around.

    I guess we just need to make a pill that gets rid of that pesky testosterone that turns men into sex crazed violent freaks.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    brightstormyday
    I don’t think you hate men, but I think your personal experiences are coloring your views. I’m really sorry for what happened to your friends. But women are to be judged in an individual basis. I think you are seeing the face of your friends every time you see a woman claiming that she was raped. The truth is that even though women are not as physically violent as men, mostly because women’s body are important to preserve to pass on the genes, they are more prone to psychological violence that can end in physical violence depending on the circumstances. Google the Mean Girls phenomenon for an example of women doing horrible things to each other.
    Many women will feel ashamed of being raped, but many women will use it as a batch of the “victim-hood order” and some others will lie to appeal to people’s sympathies.
    I know is hard but trying to remember that women are humans too with virtues and defects and not all women are like your friend might help.
    Check this: http://www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
    There is a growing number of women that are crying rape for whatever reason. Again this is not an attempt to shame but to learn to separate the facts from the feelings in something that indeed hurts women, but every time a man is accused of rape he will be hurt to, sometimes even if proven innocent, YMMV.

  • brightstormyday

    @MattC:

    I was quoting statistics. Statistics aren’t losing touch with reality. Do you want me to put in the exact numbers? I’m talking about the most likely scenario. (I’ve seriously quoted these stats so many times…)

    Also, I thought it was 8% that were false, according to an article you (or someone, darnit) posted?

    @Yohami:

    I’m not talking about police question. In addition, sexual history has been banned from being asked, along with (I believe) what the victim was wearing. Studies have shown that most rapists don’t remember what their victims were wearing regardless, so it’s most likely not a factor.

    Evidence would have to involve a lot of things. A rape kit would be used as evidence. I believe in cases of violence and abuse photographic evidence of bruises and violence could be used. If the man admitted anything or threatened the girl via text message or email or any other traceable media, then that would be used as evidence; similarly if a girl sends an email saying,”Great sex last night!” then cries rape, well then… People who serve as a judgment of character could be evidence, for both the man and the woman (ie I’ve know him my whole life and he never would…). I’m guessing also if the victim shows signs of trauma and this can be verified by a certified psychologist then that would be evidence as well. And if there were witnesses who heard or saw anything during, or saw the aftermath, well…

    I’m speculating, also basing this on things I’ve read. There’s a lot of evidence that can be provided. I’m not talking necessarily about police questioning, I’m talking about family members, friends, the media, the manosphere, this whole country essentially making a victim relive their experience. I’m all for pinning liars to the wall. I’m not for treating all women like liars because of it. Similarly, I’m all for throwing rapists in jail. I’m not for throwing all men in jail because of it.

  • White Cloud

    “Similarly, I’m all for throwing rapists in jail.”

    With DNA forensics we have available now, the punishment should be much harsher than just giving them a free room, 3 square meals per day and medical care for a few years. Shucks, even I don’t have all that and I never committed a crime!

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    DNA doesnt prove lack of consent

  • brightstormyday

    @MattC:

    -.-‘ You completely missed the second half of my post where there are some studies that check to see levels of testosterone and violence (then again, I didn’t emphasize it). I’ve found some conflicting things, some saying low testosterone males are more violent, others saying that high testosterone women are more violent, and again, ultimately, that testosterone is not a simple factor.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence

    And removing male testosterone would be harmful to society as a whole. We need both genders, in roughly equal amounts. And for people to get married. And get educated. And have 2.2 children. Truth.

    @stephenie Rowling:

    I’ve had women do some horrible things to me, and never have I ever hurt or thought about killing someone. I’m not downgrading it, and I know it’s terrible. But I still don’t think someone deserves to be physically attacked or killed for it. You can walk away from being psychologically toyed with (in most situations). You’re lucky if you walk away from being physically attacked.

    22% of murders are provoked. Yet you don’t hear someone saying,”She/he had it coming.” I know someone who was stabbed to death, and his attacker (his best friend) told him if he stopped resisting, he’d stopped stabbing him. Well, he stopped resisting, and the guy kept stabbing him. Until he died. No one ever said,”Wow, what an idiot, he didn’t even try to fight him.” I’m pointing out the dichotomy we see here.

    I’ve seen the falserapesociety. I think the news likes to bank on false rapes because it’s so reprehensible. Just like it banks on women killing their children. These things aren’t the norm, but they’re going to be promoted, like the idiot women who publish articles about how they must have been raped in some way because some guy pulled off their panties and started having sex with them without asking if they wanted to first, and even though these women never said no (and were capable to) it was rape! I get it.

    And as for the women who lie– people will lie all the time. But a few liars can’t make us believe that everyone is lying all the time. Women who lie about rape to garner sympathy are reprehensible. I dealt with one in middle school, and avoided her afterward. She was the typical case of an attention seeker; if she felt like I was ignoring her, she had a new life trauma. Her brother had cancer, her father was a drug addict, she tried to kill herself 19 times, she was raped, jk she wasn’t! I had another “friend” recently lie about having cancer to me (after knowing my father was a cancer survivor), then lied about wanting to kill herself to a friend with a family history of suicides, then lie about being raped to a friend who was raped, etc. etc. I’d like to think these girls aren’t that common, and are really obvious, but who knows? Maybe I’ve met a skilled manipulator and haven’t found it out yet.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    “But a few liars can’t make us believe that everyone is lying all the time”

    Strawman fallacy. Nobody is arguing that every rape victim is lying. This whole thing is not about if rape victims had it coming / deserve it. They dont. Not one.

    The argument is about statistics.

  • Matt C

    I was quoting statistics. Statistics aren’t losing touch with reality. Do you want me to put in the exact numbers? I’m talking about the most likely scenario. (I’ve seriously quoted these stats so many times…)

    I wish they had a statistic showing the percent of men committing these acts. Then we’ll see the reality of the situation. Most men are good, but the way some of this stuff just blatantly leaves out the fact that the vast majority of men don’t commit criminal acts is what bothers me.

    And as for the women who lie– people will lie all the time. But a few liars can’t make us believe that everyone is lying all the time. Women who lie about rape to garner sympathy are reprehensible. I dealt with one in middle school, and avoided her afterward. She was the typical case of an attention seeker; if she felt like I was ignoring her, she had a new life trauma. Her brother had cancer, her father was a drug addict, she tried to kill herself 19 times, she was raped, jk she wasn’t! I had another “friend” recently lie about having cancer to me (after knowing my father was a cancer survivor), then lied about wanting to kill herself to a friend with a family history of suicides, then lie about being raped to a friend who was raped, etc. etc. I’d like to think these girls aren’t that common, and are really obvious, but who knows? Maybe I’ve met a skilled manipulator and haven’t found it out yet.

    This study: http://www.mediaradar.org/mcdowell_kanin_credible.php came to the conclusion that up to 60% of women lie about being raped when they file a rape accusation. 60% isn’t “a few”.

    I don’t believe it’s as high as 60%. For the study it’s greater than 14%, less than 60%.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt,

    I wish they had a statistic showing the percent of men committing these acts.

    I pasted them here. By their statistics 1 in 5 males committed rape already. 3 in 10 said they would do it if they thought they would get away with it. It smells funky.

  • brightstormyday

    @Yohami:

    Wasn’t it actually 8% who admitted to something that fit within the legal definition of rape? The 20% came from men admitting that they were so aroused that they would keep going regardless of what the woman was thinking. I mean, what if they kept going, and the woman said yes? That wouldn’t be rape, then…so I think that statistic is inflated.

    @MattC:

    Most men don’t do these things. Because they’re more likely to do it doesn’t mean they’re the majority by any means. For example, most murderers are men. This does not mean most men are murderers. This does not mean most men are evil. These statistics are being used by animal behaviorists to find a reason; is there a correlation between hormones and behavior? Is it something else? Can we stop it? It isn’t about throwing all men in jail, or giving them a hormone pill, or treating them all like criminals. It’s about understanding why these things happen.

    In addition, most violent men tend to be single, widowed, or divorced. In light of these statistics, I don’t understand why people are encouraging divorce, or not getting married. Clearly, marriage is good for all parties. Clearly, marriage is good for children. Clearly, staying married is good for everyone, and society. So why is it being discouraged? Why? I don’t know.

    And I think you understand right now what it’s like for a woman to read the sphere, and the links men put about cuckolding or initiating divorce, etc. You’re having the male version of NAWALT…or NAMALT. haha.

    @Butterfly Flower:

    No, your boyfriend thinking of taking your clothes off does not make him a rapist or a potential rapist. Many men fantasize about things that are consensual involving women. If in his fantasies you’re letting him take your clothes off and enjoying it, and not saying no, he’s not raping you! SMH.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    here again

    More than one in five men report “becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent.”

    1 in 5 “couldnt stop it” even though there wasnt consent = confessed rapist.

    35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn’t be caught or punished.

    = 35% would like to rape.

    Funky. I guess we should examine what the “couldnt stop” and “did not consent” and “likehood of raping” mean for the study. Cant tell by looking at their results because theres zero data about what they researched for nor what the keywords mean.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    So why is it being discouraged? Why? I don’t know.

    Because divorce is a legal and financial death trap for men

  • brightstormyday

    @Matt C:

    Re Kanin:

    I’m reading some essays in regards to Kanin’s research. Apparently some doctors in psychology are arguing that Kanin’s research was not conducted in a scientific manner and did not follow the normal police standards of false reporting, but rather what he (in his own opinion) considered to be false. He performed his own study which found the false reporting rate to be around 6%. The FBI finds the rate to be about 8%. I think 60% is a bit ridiculous.

    Lisak also talks about what I said before. That nonstranger rapes are basically premeditated. The guys go for the most vulnerable women they can, and then do something to “help” them. “Let me drive you home.” “let me walk you home.” From that point on he’s in control of her. This is why/how 60-75% of these things are premeditated.

    And also, you might be asking,”Why would anyone admit to that? It must be false.” A lot of these guys don’t view forcing a woman or having sex with an unconscious woman as a crime. In fact, it’s a conquest, and they’re proud. You won’t understand their mentality because they don’t think like the average person. That’s why they’re rapists.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    You won’t understand their mentality because they don’t think like the average person

    According to the statistics, RAPIST is the average person.

    Theres more men rooting for rape than men listening to rock music. More rapists than christians. Stop the validation circle for a moment and think about what it “means”. 35% of the population is critical mass.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    35% of the [MALE] population is critical mass.

  • brightstormyday

    @yohami:

    Was that sarcastic or serious?

    I think probably in that case, then, it’s a survey and people fill it out. The wording was probably the same. So the men say these things.

    Who knows if they actually do them. The percentage who say they would is higher than the ones who actually do. Let’s go with actions speak louder than words.

    I think regarding the 1 in 5 statistic…the website also says that 1 in 15 men have raped women, according to the legal definition of rape. Many of these studies are carried out in the 90’s, so it’s probably before the “consenting while drunk= rape!” fad, but who knows? These statistics are contradicting each other, and yet both are based on what men have said. I think both are using different sample sizes and different sample groups, period. It’s the only way to explain the differences. That said, the 1 in 15 statistic sounds more likely. The 1 in 5 statistic might be some weird male ritual bragging.

  • brightstormyday

    @Yohami:

    That’s still not the majority. And I’m so confused about what stance you are taking. I feel like you’re arguing with me, then against me. Maybe I’m just tired and misreading everything…

    And as for marriage, I’m not just talking about for men, but for women too! Why are modern women discouraging it? Why are feminists discouraging it?

  • Butterfly Flower

    No, your boyfriend thinking of taking your clothes off does not make him a rapist or a potential rapist. Many men fantasize about things that are consensual involving women. If in his fantasies you’re letting him take your clothes off and enjoying it, and not saying no, he’s not raping you! SMH.

    I never implied he might be a rapist; I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of said line of logic.

    Men thinking about having sex with women isn’t “contemplating rape”.

    And I think you understand right now what it’s like for a woman to read the sphere, and the links men put about cuckolding or initiating divorce, etc. You’re having the male version of NAWALT…or NAMALT. haha.

    I’ve noticed a lot of men on the blogosphere seem to completely disregard the notion of “bad men”. Women are just so awful, but God-forbid a someone points out some bad men exist in the world too. “Rapists only attack sluts that deserve it, bad men don’t rape innocent women…” Rape statistics may not be completely accurate, but that doesn’t mean rapists don’t exist…

  • brightstormyday

    @Butterfly Flower:

    The statistic said explicitly:

    1 in 3 men said they would rape a woman if they could get away with it.

    It said nothing about sex.

    I don’t see how it’s ridiculous. That’s what it says.

    And re the sphere:

    Yes. They fail to see that humans are inherently flawed. Men and women alike.

  • brightstormyday

    Well, I mean, the number is ridiculous. Hard to believe.

    But the line of logic isn’t that ridiculous. Either a) you would or b) you wouldn’t. I don’t think there’s a lot of ambiguity

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Well, I mean, the number is ridiculous. Hard to believe.

    Eh. But you were saying “its a fact” and “its reality”, thats why I end up arguing against you and the logic behind it, rather than arguing with you.

    I think the number is ridiculous. If the statistics are real, then I live in a blind bubble (which might be the case, but, unlikely)

    So before taking the 1/5 rapist and 3/10 pro rape ratio, as a “fact” and talking about it like it was the most normal thing in the world, I would need to get the facts behind the statistics and some explanation about why society and
    the people I know dont reflects the dynamics that would result in injecting a 35% rapists ratio in my surroundings / the observable world

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Maybe we should be about how feasible are this “mental rapes”. Did they asked what circumstances would they consider “get away with it” Would they enter a house of a woman they know is going to be alone (or is living alone) without dogs or neighborhoods and they know she can’t protect herself for some reason?
    Or they will intoxicate unpurpose a woman to render her unconscious to facilitate rape?
    Also the definition of rape has changed quite some times, so where this kids aware that it was rape according to the new definitions? Because the study says they didn’t considered it rape, so maybe this was after they got the “rape awareness training” and they didn’t cover this.
    Any details like this about how the study and questions were formulated?

  • Mike C

    So before taking the 1/5 rapist and 3/10 pro rape ratio, as a “fact” and talking about it like it was the most normal thing in the world, I would need to get the facts behind the statistics and some explanation about why society and
    the people I know dont reflects the dynamics that would result in injecting a 35% rapists ratio in my surroundings / the observable world

    .
    Yes. Certainly not my world, and the guys I know, have known, associated with, been friends with. 1/3 rapists if they could get away with it? No way. This implies essentially that 1/3 of men are evil sociopaths. Not sure what the number is but 33% strains credulity.
    .
    I skimmed this thread very rapidly, and I’m not going to go back and dissect every word, but one thing jumped out at me is this idea of a woman “not being sure if she was raped”. Unless she was comatose, unconscious, or sedated, then if she was conscious during the act and is “unsure” if she was raped, then she WASN’T RAPED unless we play this nonsensical game of redefining rape to situations where the woman regrets having sex after the fact or feels she was “pressured” rather then physically forced.

  • White Cloud

    Brightstormyday, thankyou for bringing in a rationality here free from ego-centered emotion.

    Stephanie, without clicking on your link to the study or studies about women and porn fantasies I bet I can tell you what it says;

    1. The study or studies were conducted in a few western countries, those being most likely UK, USA, Canada, Australia or Western Europe.

    2. The sample size was small, at most maybe 3,000 women.

    3. The so-called “rape fantasy” was actually a seduction fantasy of being made wild, passionate love to by a highly attractive man whom the women desired.

    Am I write or wrong?

  • Butterfly Flower

    […] but one thing jumped out at me is this idea of a woman “not being sure if she was raped”. Unless she was comatose, unconscious, or sedated, then if she was conscious during the act and is “unsure” if she was raped, then she WASN’T RAPED unless we play this nonsensical game of redefining rape to situations where the woman regrets having sex after the fact or feels she was “pressured” rather then physically forced.

    I don’t get when women claim they were tricked into having sex. I mean, how is that even possible?

    I’m quite naive, but I’m pretty sure at some point I’d realize a man is trying to have sex with me. For example, if a man were to remove his pants in front of me. I feel like a lack of pants would indicate sexual intentions.

  • Mike C

    I don’t get when women claim they were tricked into having sex. I mean, how is that even possible?
    .
    I don’t think “tricked” is the right word. You aren’t going to trick your penis into her vagina. I really hope Yohami will chime in here because he has the amount of experience to really elaborate, but I’ll say this. I think some women…in the moment…just go with the flow. In other words, they do NOT forcefully, vocally, and EMPHATICALLY say NO, STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW. They “let” sex happen, and then after the fact they regret it, feel like they acted “slutty”, etc. Now put some extreme “all sex is rape” women in front of them asking “did he get your consent”, “did you verbally say yes you may insert your penis now”, and voila now she has been raped. She never said NO, STOP THIS, but afterwards she was persuaded she never gave her consent. So it isn’t a case of being “tricked”, but just allowing something to happen in a more passive sense. If you read the book The Game by Neil Strauss there is a perfect example of this sort of dynamic in the early part of the book when they walk this girl home WITH A BOYFRIEND and the one guy has sex with her. She puts up no resistance and just allows it to happen. The thing is there is a very wide spectrum on the female response in between “fuck the shit out of me now/stick it in” and “NO, STOP NOW” of which that middle zone is just sort of a passive participant at least to begin with and then the level of “active participation” picks up. Yohami is better then me in verbalizing these sorts of dynamics but I’ve had enough experience to know how women can vary tremendously in their response.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    then she WASN’T RAPED unless we play this nonsensical game of redefining rape to situations where the woman regrets having sex after the fact or feels she was “pressured” rather then physically forced.

    I think this is another thing were Feelingarchy its been imposed. We know already that women hate shame, specially word shames so for them a guy that says words for her to have sex with him can be constructed into what her feels where of the whole act afterwards. If she liked the sex, was unnatached and the guy keeps trying to have sex with her, she will “feel” that everything that happened among them was meant to be. Of course for as long as he doesn’t do anything that pisses her off, in which case her feelings will change and everything that happened was coerced out of her in some way because an “empowered woman like her doesn’t make bad choices, men force then to do things she doesn’t want to”, then add all the type of sex a woman can have from crappy to mediocre with a guy she later evaluate different, add the modern beatification of whatever a woman feels is validated by society as true and good and voila! Pretty much everything can be considered rape.
    Again if feminism doesn’t crumble among their own “feelings” staring will be considered sexual assault soon enough “he raped me with his eyes”, YMMV.

  • White Cloud

    I’m hearing about these women who cherry-pick which men raped them and which men gave the consensual sex, all based on a concept that women will claim it was rape if the guy was unattractive, couldn’t give her an orgasm and didn’t show interest in her afterward, and claim it was consensual sex if the guy was attractive, she enjoyed the sex and he showed interest in her afterward. Where does this come from? Have women actually been interviewed regarding this?

    As far as “pressured sex” with a twist, how about this story:

    A tall, lanky awkward male nerd I know with very friends happened to meet a group of young people and hit it off with them. One of the females of the group, I’ll call her Kim, was obese and had a crush on him. One day the group asked him, “are you and Kim dating?” They were NOT dating but he felt that unless he said “yes” that he would lose this group of friends, so he said “yeah”. From that day forward Kim started treating him like a boyfriend and yes, according to him she even “forced” herself on him sexually. He was not attracted to her and eventually could not longer pull off the charade and thus told her he only wanted to be friends. Sure enough, after that the group was not as friendly to him as before.

    What would you call this?

  • Mike C

    A tall, lanky awkward male nerd I know with very friends happened to meet a group of young people and hit it off with them. One of the females of the group, I’ll call her Kim, was obese and had a crush on him. One day the group asked him, “are you and Kim dating?” They were NOT dating but he felt that unless he said “yes” that he would lose this group of friends, so he said “yeah”. From that day forward Kim started treating him like a boyfriend and yes, according to him she even “forced” herself on him sexually. He was not attracted to her and eventually could not longer pull off the charade and thus told her he only wanted to be friends. Sure enough, after that the group was not as friendly to him as before.

    What would you call this?

    Not sure what I’d “call it”, but it certainly isn’t rape, and he wasn’t “forced”. He sounds like a spineless guy with no self-esteem to get sexually involved with a woman he has no attraction to just to maintain a circle of friends. If a group of people aren’t going to be your friends because you won’t get sexually/romantically involved with a woman, then they are not really your friends.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    What would you call this?

    Depends
    Did the guy asked the girl to stop once they were having sex or he just “thrusted and though of England”? Most of this points are about the other partner being made aware with a clear STOP that the person is not consenting. Imagining that because you weren’t screaming his/her name in extasis, the other person most had known you were raping them is kind of placing the blame in someone that was not made aware of that fact and is not by any means psychic, YMMV.

  • Dogsquat

    I’m almost positive (sex-positive?) I’m an awful jackass for thinking this, but…

    I think that poor girl in the picture is doing a little projection. She likes guys who get laid – pre-selection and all that. She assumes guys are the same way, and is broadcasting her little attempt at pre-selection out into the world.

    Shit. That picture makes me sad for some reason. Somebody needs to give that poor girl a talking to.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Shit. That picture makes me sad for some reason. Somebody needs to give that poor girl a talking to.

      Agreed. She looks very unhappy. I want to ask her how it’s working out so far?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Withe,

    I´d call it a stupid guy

    “Have women actually been interviewed regarding this?”

    Yes, thats some of the stuff the proven – false accusations results are throwing

  • Abbot

    “people should make the sexual choices that are right for them, and other people should respect them for making those choices.”
    .
    Sex pozzies will NEVER respect a man who makes the sexual choice to reject a woman for marriage based on her past sexual choices. So much for your self serving pontifications.
    .
    we should solve that nasty problem of how it is significantly more difficult for men to get laid than women.
    .
    Sex pozzies will NEVER acknowledge, let along solve, this nasty problem. They are a self serving bunch and will only do whats good for themselves, hypocrisy be damned. They came about as a fringe group after being mocked for years of throwing back alpha male BC-pill cocktails.
    .

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mike C, you did fine with that “let it flow” description. I rarely get the girls “verbal consent”, I dont look for it, it gets in the way, makes the stuff mental, forces her to make a logic decision. Emphasis in “logic”. Logic is not an arousing thing. That doesnt mean there is “force”, but “magic”

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    “asking” for consent is like asking for permission. a turn off. If you are “the man” you dont ask for permission but act as you have permission. If you break that spell by asking “are you sure about this” or “is it ok if I advance sexually?” its pretty much over. If things are going to far too soon she can make you stop and tell you straight that she doesnt want to go there.

    But she can also be moaning no no no no no nooo whe shouldnt be doing this, all night long.

    Like with everything related to women, there are many, multi layers of communication going at the same time. The purely “verbal” is the most superficial. Not the plane you should be mainly communicating on.

  • Abbot

    claim it was consensual sex if the guy was attractive, she enjoyed the sex and he showed interest in her afterward.
    .
    She got the BFE^ she was brainwashed by feminists into thinking that she is entitled to, despite the alcohol and brevity of the circumstances. Anything short of that is absolutely rape, and that is defined by law.
    .
    ^ boyfriend experience

  • White Cloud

    Do women have to get verbal consent from men as well? Do we have to ask men, “are you sure about this?”

  • Butterfly Flower

    Mike C, you did fine with that “let it flow” description. I rarely get the girls “verbal consent”, I dont look for it, it gets in the way, makes the stuff mental, forces her to make a logic decision. Emphasis in “logic”. Logic is not an arousing thing. That doesnt mean there is “force”, but “magic”

    So you’re not “tricking” women into letting you have sex with them? Like, they were in the mood, and looking to fool around with you? You initiated intercourse, but the moment was already sexual?

    …so it’s never like, a man literally tricking a woman into sex? Oh. [What? I said I was naive]

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White,

    Do women have to get verbal consent from men as well?

    have to? no, but a lot of them do, once and again

    Butterfly,

    So you’re not “tricking” women into letting you have sex with them? Like, they were in the mood, and looking to fool around with you? You initiated intercourse, but the moment was already sexual?

    Thats how it goes! but its not “letting you have sex with them”. That phrase is so funny.

  • Butterfly Flower

    […] but its not “letting you have sex with them”. That phrase is so funny.

    …why is it so funny?

    If [err, more like when – I’m a virgin] I have sex with a man, I’d be allowing him to have sex with me. I decide who I part my legs for. I’m the gatekeeper to my uh…”secret garden”.

    My boyfriend and I have hot make-out sessions; I’m sure sex can easily “just happen” but I’m smart and draw a line. We actually have a “don’t take off your pants” rule.

    It sounds like women that lack self-control are blaming men…instead of just parting their legs. Not having sex isn’t that difficult.

  • http://Ft.com VJ
  • Clarence

    Yohami:

    That hasn’t been my experience. Dude, I respect you and usually agree with you, but you have to be able to tell a NO from a “no, no, no, no, *moaning*” and if you aren’t sure you risk being a rapist by continuing. I am NEVER scared of “not being the man” by asking when I wasn’t sure, admittedly it could be I just find weird girls or something or maybe it’s because it is possible to ask in a confident manner.

  • Clarence

    Susan:
    You might want to “fisk” this because the post is basically calling SMP “superstition” , among nicer things.

    http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/what-if-its-all-just-made-up/#comment-6395

  • http://Ft.com VJ

    Nope sorry about that. It’s supposed to be Funny!:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opS_DMV30jQ&feature=player_embedded

    Enjoy, ‘VJ’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VJ
      I am so happy to see you! I hope all is well with you and yours. Re that video: OMG most of those are offenses worthy of a breakup. The guy who waxed a woman’s eyebrow off while she was sleeping? Seriously, I consider that assault. I don’t know if there’s a lot of natural sadism in the population, or if reality shows have coarsened us to the suffering and humiliation of others. I recall seeing one father of a childhood friend kicking her little brother’s shins repeatedly while the kid cried out, guffawing the whole time. I later heard that the kid wound up in prison for murder. Is this the psychopathy that women supposedly find so attractive?

  • Blues
    More than one in five men report “becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent.”

    1 in 5 “couldnt stop it” even though there wasnt consent = confessed rapist.

    I’ll go out on a limb and say that “even though the woman did not consent” = token resistance.

    Of course this being a feminism approved/made study they didn’t make a distinction and just encased it all under “rape”.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Girls probably wouldn’t do it.

    Asserted, but no accompanying studies for proof, I see.
    1) Without a clarification on the study’s methodology, we don’t know whether the “1 in 3″ stat applies to violate rape or just rape in a legal definition (which may not include violence, such as if the girl is inebriated/passed out). And yes, the same would have to be corrected for if the reverse was to be applied to women. If asked “would you rape” (which would give most people the mental image of a violent, back-alley taking), most women would probably say no (most men too). If asked “is there any guy you would tie down and ride till morning, like Isla Fisher did to Vince Vaughn in Wedding Crashers?” …well you’d probably get a higher number of women answering affirmative than the previous question, even though the latter is still legally rape.

  • Blues

    And as for marriage, I’m not just talking about for men, but for women too! Why are modern women discouraging it? Why are feminists discouraging it?

    Absurd feminist ideals, basically.

    I’ve noticed a lot of men on the blogosphere seem to completely disregard the notion of “bad men”. Women are just so awful, but God-forbid a someone points out some bad men exist in the world too. “Rapists only attack sluts that deserve it, bad men don’t rape innocent women…” Rape statistics may not be completely accurate, but that doesn’t mean rapists don’t exist…

    The problem with you and most women is that feminism has convinced you to take common sense advice and inquiry for blaming.

    Well, I mean, the number is ridiculous. Hard to believe.

    But the line of logic isn’t that ridiculous. Either a) you would or b) you wouldn’t. I don’t think there’s a lot of ambiguity

    So to you there’s nothing funny to you that such a ridiculous number came out of a supposedly logic line of thinking? i’m going with Steph here, you’re seeing the faces of your friends instead of how absurd the results of these studies are when overlapped on RL.

    I don’t think “tricked” is the right word. You aren’t going to trick your penis into her vagina. I really hope Yohami will chime in here because he has the amount of experience to really elaborate, but I’ll say this. I think some women…in the moment…just go with the flow. In other words, they do NOT forcefully, vocally, and EMPHATICALLY say NO, STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW. They “let” sex happen, and then after the fact they regret it, feel like they acted “slutty”, etc.

    Evidence supports this. The fact the woman didn’t get punished at all is even more jarring. I some cases of false rape the woman even got a huge settlement and the man nothing even when evidence proved his innocence.

  • Blues

    It sounds like women that lack self-control are blaming men…instead of just parting their legs. Not having sex isn’t that difficult.

    We have a winner!.

  • Butterfly Flower

    The problem with you and most women is that feminism has convinced you to take common sense advice and inquiry for blaming.

    The problem with ME? *grits teeth*

    …this is why I hate the blogosphere, pretty much all the male commenters automatically assume the worst about me. I’m such a slutty feminist manhating virgin. Apparently I can’t wait to marry my boyfriend so I can cheat on him & subsequently divorce him.

    I’m not allowed to believe evil men rape innocent women who aren’t asking for it, but men can believe all women are vindictive evil whores? *facepalm*

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    The “one in four” statistic I believe comes from feminist wacko Susan Brownmiller, and in any case it has been completely debunked. It’s total, unadulterated bullshit. She interviewed (and/or distributed surveys to) college women and ones who answered yes to things like “I have had sex while drunk” she counted as a rape. Then this led to a bunch of campus hysterics as they tried to convince women who had willingly had sex that they had actually been raped.

    I’m not going to respond to any statistics from the “oneinfourusa” website which is so obviously based on a complete lie.

    http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html

    “In addition, most violent men tend to be single, widowed, or divorced. In light of these statistics, I don’t understand why people are encouraging divorce, or not getting married.”

    Are you a fool? This is classic post hoc fallacy – “violent people tend to not be married so if people get married they will be less violent.” And if we gave everyone a million dollars we’d all be rich.

    Mike C: “No way. This implies essentially that 1/3 of men are evil sociopaths. ”

    This is an excellent point – to truly commit rape one has to be a violent sociopathic personality. The vast majority of men are incapable of this. Feminists have gone way overboard with the “any man could be a rapist” shtick, and they’ve re-defined the normal college sex scene (drunken hookups, morning-after regrets) as violent predatory behavior by men instead of as sexual adventures by young horny people gone sour. They’ve tried to extend the power of the word rape to other situations and instead they’ve just devalued the word.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    All this reminds me of a scary chain letter I recently got…

    Subject: Warning for Men

    Women often receive warnings about protecting themselves at the mall and in dark parking lots, etc. This is the first warning I have seen for men. I wanted to pass it on in case you haven’t heard about it.

    A ‘heads up’ for those men who may be regular customers at Lowe’s, Home Depot, Costco, or even Wal-Mart. This one caught me totally by surprise.

    Over the last month I became a victim of a clever scam while out shopping. Simply going out to get supplies has turned out to be quite traumatic. Don’t be naive enough to think it couldn’t happen to you or your friends.

    Here’s how the scam works:

    Two nice-looking, college-aged girls will come over to your car or truck as you are packing your purchases into your vehicle. They both start wiping your windshield with a rag and Windex, with their breasts almost falling out of their skimpy T-shirts. (It’s impossible not to look). When you thank them and offer them a tip, they say ‘No’ but instead ask for a ride to McDonald’s.

    You agree and they climb into the vehicle. On the way, they start undressing. Then one of them starts crawling all over you, while the other one steals your wallet.

    I had my wallet stolen Jun. 4th, 9th, 10th, twice on the 15th, 17th, 20th, 24th, & 29th. Also Jul. 1st & 4th, twice on the 8th, 16th, 23rd, 26th & 27th, and very likely again this upcoming weekend.

    So tell your friends to be careful. What a horrible way to take advantage of us older men. Warn your friends to be vigilant.

    Wal-Mart has wallets on sale for $2.99 each. I found even cheaper ones for $.99 at the dollar store and bought them out in three of their stores.

    Also, you never get to eat at McDonald’s. I’ve already lost 11 pounds just running back and forth from Lowe’s, to Home Depot, to Costco, Etc.

    So please, send this on to all the older men that you know and warn them to be on the lookout for this scam. (The best times are just before lunch and around 4:30 in the afternoon)

    (yes it’s a joke, yes it’s ok to laugh)

  • Jack

    Re: 1 in 3 men said they would rape a woman if they could get away with it.

    But the line of logic isn’t that ridiculous. Either a) you would or b) you wouldn’t. I don’t think there’s a lot of ambiguity

    But no credible study would bother to pose that question. The false reporting rate would be far too high. You can’t even get people to privately self report accurately on questions that are slightly embarrassing, much less admit to an intent to rape. So I’m calling BS on this one.

    Also the 15% survivor stat is obvious BS. That would mean that there are ~1.3 Million rapes of female college students while there are only ~88K incidents nationally per annum.

  • tito

    @Susan

    “Agreed. She looks very unhappy. I want to ask her how it’s working out so far?”

    you know what she would say Susan. and it wouldn’t be the truth

  • OffTheCuff

    I’m sure if they surveyed me, they’d paint me as a rapist.

    In college, Mrs. C and had wild consensual sober sex, buzzed sex, drunk sex, smashed sex, and even blacked-out sex. So \if you interviewed me, and asked me have I ever had done one of these activities, I’d say yes. However, I think the laws are ridiculous, and I know I’ve never *really* raped anyone.

    So, legally I am. So is Mrs. C, we are just both unprosecuted.

    Now, if you ask her if I ever raped her, she’d laugh you out of the room.

    That’s how we have agenda-driven surveys like this. Define rape whichever way you want, ask a few men about those specific activities, avoid asking women the same questions, and bingo! Rape scare statistics, all the better to empower yourselves with, and scare off those unattractive guys who try to follow the impossible-to-follow rules. Die, unattractive men!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    “Agreed. She looks very unhappy. I want to ask her how it’s working out so far?”

    There’s some kind of pay off going on there. I’m thinking it’s easier for her to see men as misogynistic judgmental pigs than to take a look at herself in the mirror.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    “The good news is that I googled him a couple of years ago, and found a pic of his gorgeous wife and daughter in a community newspaper in California. He appears to have a happy and successful life.”

    Must have a skilled tongue….

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Stephanie….women & psychological violence.

    I think most men learn to control any tendencies to verbal aggression at a young age because if they don’t, it can get them punched in the mouth (or, in some neighborhoods, much worse)…women don’t usually face such direct negative feedback.

  • brightstormyday

    @Yohami, and everyone else:

    In terms of “date rape,” or “acquaintance rape,” it was found that about 1/2 of all women were drinking at the time, and 3/4 of the men were drinking. So clearly, this makes a lot more sense in light of the fact that men, while intoxicated, tend to get more violent, misread signals, etc. Men when they’re sober tend to misread signals.

    Also the 1 in 3 statistic involves 6, 159 college students from 32 institutions. It’s from the 90’s. Maybe things have changed since then and it’s lower. But it says what it says. 1 in 3 men would rape a woman if they knew they wouldn’t get caught. And the fact that someone makes breaking into a woman’s house and forcing her signficantly worse (it is worse on the level that he’s breaking in, but) than forcing himself on a woman who’s unconscious makes me want to head desk. The fact that someone would force himself on an unconscious woman is a red flag. What will that person do to someone who’s handicapped? What will they do to children? The fact that someone would play a part of that (through drugging the victim) is scarier. It’s premeditated. I’m going to stand by what I said. You can disbelieve the statistics all you want, but this is what men answered. Don’t ask me why your gender answered the way it did. If you don’t believe it, then clearly you’re in the 2/3 that didn’t.

    And I think in terms of “precautions,” I honestly believe that people are retarded and just not reading statistics. Nearly half of the victims are virgins and only half were drinking. As opposed to the assailants. More rapists are drunk when they’re doing it than not. Most rapists don’t remember what their victim was wearing. And most victims are wearing things like jeans or pajamas (oh so sexy!). Half the precautions they tell women to take are only putting said women in danger. At my school it’s common fare for a girl to have a male friend walk her home. My friend did that and he took advantage of her. Let’s wake up and smell the coffee. The way to stop rape is to stop the rapists, not to tell people it’s their fault over and over and over. Use your fucking head.

    @MattC:

    Regarding marriage, yes this is how the government and sociologists think. If there’s a factor that contributes to crime and factor then let’s get rid of it. That’s partially why we have public education. That’s why we have antidrug propaganda in schools. It’s about having productive, nonviolent citizens and a solid middle class.

  • brightstormyday

    And similarly, just like you all say that you or your friends never would rape…

    I’ve never met a girl who called drunken sex rape or thought of it as such. I’ve never met anyone who reported a guy for sexually assault or verbal assault because he cat called her and/or tried to grind on her at a party. (Though I do know a girl who got a write up at her job for hitting on another girl….smh) So clearly the feminist stance on rape hasn’t really caught on. And again, the news headlines are going to back on the unusual, not what’s significantly more common.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    You can disbelieve the statistics all you want, but this is what men answered. Don’t ask me why your gender answered the way it did. If you don’t believe it, then clearly you’re in the 2/3 that didn’t.

    I’ve never met a girl who called drunken sex rape or thought of it as such.

    The study the statistics are drawn from (from what I can guess, have we had a source yet), use “drunken sex” as a term for rape, something you said no girl (that you know of) would consider rape.

    Thats an equivocation fallacy. Especially that those running and responding to the study were using the term “rape” in the same manner that you use it. For instance:

    The fact that someone would force himself on an unconscious woman is a red flag. What will that person do to someone who’s handicapped?

    There’s an easy answer to that: What’s the rape statistic for handicapped people? Especially as a whole of all victims?

    aside: You know, I have a lot of sympathy for mentally handicapped people for a variety of reasons, but I just thought of one more. Obviously they’re not capable of giving consent, but you have to wonder, what if one of them really really wants to have/experience sex? It’s literally against the law for them (well… not for them, but for every potential partner).

  • brightstormyday

    Well then, you all have an equivocation fallacy as well, for saying that your friends would never rape. Nate, my response was to men like yohami who said,”My friends wouldn’t, so the statistics are wrong!”

    It’s idiotic. I’m looking for the original study. If you guys can’t find the original study, then you can’t say the original study defined drunken sex as rape. You can’t extrapolate that data from a situation when you don’t have it. That’s idiotic as well.

    The original study was done by LR. Here’s a study I found citing it.

    http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamuth/pdf/81Jsi37.pdf

    35% of men, out of a scale of 1 to 5, 1 being never, and 5 being very likely, answered 2 or above. The misleading thing is that this could be for rape during wartime, or it could be for forcible rape, or for rape of an unconscious woman. Also, the other thing that they don’t distinguish was if the man rated a 2 or higher after watching rape porn, or after watching a victim describe her experience and the impact it had on her, or if they were the control. Regardless, 35% of men rated a 2 or higher for one of the above in one of the above scenarios, and 20% rated a 3 or above. I’m going to look for the original study to see how many rated a 4 or a 5, I’m busy reading this one. Haven’t finished yet. Will get back to you when I do.

    Also, the 1 in 3 stat (similar to the 35% stat) was a different study conducted by a different group. It’s probably a similar situation. 1 in 3 would rank 2 or higher, but realistically, the percentage of 4’s and 5’s is much smaller. Regardless the study points out that the psychological profiles of men who have been apprehended for rape is different from those who haven’t. This is enlightening.

  • brightstormyday

    Wow the study I just read is so disturbing. The higher a man’s LR score, the more likely he is to become aroused by a depiction of a rape scene in which the victim abhors it. A man with a lower score (a score of 1) generally would not become aroused and would prefer pornography that shows consensual sex.

  • brightstormyday

    Wow, in a study that participants thought was separate but was related, men who had answered that they would rape a woman if they would not get caught were more likely to want to physically harm a woman who rejected them.

    Yikes. This is scary.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Clarence,

    but you have to be able to tell a NO from a “no, no, no, no, *moaning*” and if you aren’t sure you risk being a rapist by continuing. I am NEVER scared of “not being the man” by asking when I wasn’t sure, admittedly it could be I just find weird girls or something or maybe it’s because it is possible to ask in a confident manner.

    One has a smile and the other doesnt. The “no no no” moanings, Im exaggerating though. But stuff like “we shouldnt be doing this, this is trouble, are you sure, I dont wany anyone to find out, I shouldnt be doing this” etc are “normal” I respond with stuff like “you can leave then” or “I guess I shouldnt be doing this either”

    It seems like for a lot of women expressing “this isnt want I should be doing, this isnt what I normally do, you are responsible for this, Im not the one initiating this, you are responsible for this, Im powerless here, you´re so big and Im so small” etc is a counter-slut safecard so they need to play it. I

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    Well then, you all have an equivocation fallacy as well, for saying that your friends would never rape. Nate, my response was to men like yohami who said,”My friends wouldn’t, so the statistics are wrong!”

    I’m not sure I’ve said anything about my associates. I was merely protesting that this was bad data.

    I’m more offended by bad statistics and math than the idea that men are scum. (but then I’m a cynical bastard)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stormy-trolly

    If 1 in 5 males were confessing they raped already, and 1 in 3 were pro rape, we wouldnt be even discussing about statistics. The real unreported number would make every guy a rapist – which is nonsense, but familiar.

    Get it? we need the data behind the statistics and explanation on the studies and what are they asking and what are they getting and how they are processing the information, BEFORE I can talk in terms of:

    “so of course guys get drunk and rape”

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    The paper is

    a) 30 years out of date
    b) clearly shows a heavy feminist bias (note the use of the term ‘rape myths’ & how it’s applied, plus the large number of feminist sources) &
    c) does not tell us what the men on their own terms consider rape to be, or for that matter, what the pornographic depiction of ‘rape’ they were shown was (i.e, Gone With The Wind?).

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Another thing that is hard for us to see now but must be factored in is that the term ‘rape’ was used much more loosely in the 1970’s, without a lot of the immediate horror we all today associate with it, & could often mean… hmm… i don’t know, i guess to ‘get away’ with having sex with a woman you desire who might regret it in the morning? Casanova hopping on his horse in the chilly dawn & riding off? Something like that.

    When I was young i remember reading one of the original M*A*SH* (remember M*A*S*H*? the comedy?) novels by Richard Hooker & the blurb on the back of the book referred to the co-lead character Trapper John getting that nickname for ‘raping a beauty queen in the john on the Boston to Maine express’ which i remember shocking me at the time (i grew up in this PC age) but clearly shows it was a far less loaded term at the time, if it could be used for comic effect on the back of a mainstream comedy novel.

  • OhioStater

    Hmm. This is counter-intuitive, but I think slut shaming is a good thing. The main argument in favor of girls acting slutty is it gives a girl rated 6 or 7 a punchers chance with a guy rated 8 or 9. She’ll eventually marry a guy rated 6 or 7, but why not shoot for the stars? That said, a not-insignificant number of men won’t marry sluts. Women need to determine if they eventually want to marry one of these men. Women generally don’t like to rationalize emotions and feelings, but in this case it’s worth it. If she isn’t capable of making this determination, then she needs to listen to her friends, parents, and society as a whole. They way they communicate? Slut shaming. Slut shaming at age 18 or 19 albeit painful keeps the girl eligible for marriage at a later date. Slut shaming is a market signal that a girl as a sharp astute investor can profit from.

  • brightstormyday

    @Byron:

    The pornographic description of rape involved, in one case, the man violently forcing the woman while she screamed and clearly abhored it, and in another case, a man forcing the woman but she enjoyed it.

    Also, other recent studies from the 90’s also uphold the 1 in 3 statistic. Why study after study keeps producing the same numbers, even with larger sample sizes, men from different universities, etc. is beyond me, but it does.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stormy,

    Also, other recent studies from the 90′s also uphold the 1 in 3 statistic.

    Data?

  • jamie

    I don’t get slut walks. One obscure Canadian police officer makes a stupid comment, so in retaliation, some stupid feminists forming a stupid movement of stupid protest marches. The reason the Police Officer’s comment was stupid is because dressing slutty is not a prerequisite for getting raped. Most rape victims were fully-clothed at the time of the attack. The slut walkers completely missed the point. I’m embarrassed to be female because of them.

    I read somewhere on the interwebs that dressing like a prostitute is akin to dressing like a thug and taking a walk in Compton. If you get beaten or shot or stabbed, you were pretty much asking for it. Judging people by their appearance is NORMAL, you judge the UPS guy by his brown shorts, Police Officers by their badges, Superman by his stretchy pantsuit and cape. If I were walking around in my chef whites and a guy asked me, “what’s cooking?” It would be stupid of me to get angry, “Just because I’m dressed like a cook doesn’t mean I’m supposed to be cooking something!” Same with the girl in a miniskirt with her boobs spilling out of her top, “Just because I dress this way doesn’t mean I want male attention!” Um…actually, lady, that’s exactly what that means. If you didn’t want attention, you’d wear a mumu.

    I can’t even walk to the taco stand across the street in my office clothes without hearing about it, so if you ask me to strip down to my skivvies and march around with a sign that reads “I’m a slut” I’m going to laugh in your face and call you an idiot in front of your friends. Not only is a slutwalk stupid in and of itself, but what it stands for, a bunch of deluded feminazis completely missing the point, is also stupid.

    I’m seriously embarrassed on behalf of my gender.

  • Matt T

    I think its a pretty ludicrous thing to call someone “pro rape” simply if they say they would rape someone if no one could possibly find out. Every introductory psych student learns that people tend to do antisocial things if they know they can’t get caught.

    I mean, if I couldn’t get caught, I’m not sure about rape, but I would definitely murder the professor that turned me off from being a psych major. Does that make me pro-murder?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Personally, if a woman who is millionaire told me I have to be always well dressed and with good make up and she was going to economically support me for life, I would be waxing my (very hairy) arms and legs like crazy

    You are forgetting that as man you are more likely to be attracted and able to get off with more women than women. I’m pretty sure if the woman was truly attracted to the guy, anything that will keep him around won’t be seen as work. In the opposite case if she is not attracted no matter how little compromises she needs to make for the relationship it will be too much. The attraction justify the means for the majority of women.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt,

    I think its a pretty ludicrous thing to call someone “pro rape” simply if they say they would rape someone if no one could possibly find out. Every introductory psych student learns that people tend to do antisocial things if they know they can’t get caught.

    I would rob pro audio stores, for sure. I would feel terrible and maybe return it or repay it, or thats what my mind tells me to soften the moral pain, but I would.

    And that does make me “pro stealing” somehow because it shows where my limits are. There are stuff I wouldnt do under any circumstance. Kill, I can do that with the right circumstances. Mutilate, be extremely violent, yeah. “Sacrifice innocent lives”, sure, as long as there are more innocent lives being saved. Steal, pillage, sure, when survival calls for it, I could do it. Theft of minor items? breaking smaller laws? yeah. I rob chocolates and stuff like that at the supermarket, and forget to report all the money I make – when I can.

    Forcing somebody else to have sex with me against their will?

    I dont have it. I get many people do have it. I get some have it as a fantasy, and some have it as a real thing with lack of morals about it, as in they dont feel wrong but good when doing stuff that is wrong for the most people

    But 1 in 3? wtf. 1 in 5 already raping? wtf x10000

    According to that there are more rapists than thieves. Raping is the most common crime in the world. More rapists than murderers and liars and manipulator. More rapists than narcissists. Etc. It doesnt add up.

    So Matt, I guess you would rape if you could get away with it? thats what I get from what you´re saying. Maybe Im the freak.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    any man could be a rapist

    The penis as a weapon is a very common motif.

    I think most men learn to control any tendencies to verbal aggression at a young age because if they don’t, it can get them punched in the mouth (or, in some neighborhoods, much worse)…women don’t usually face such direct negative feedback.

    Not among each other at least. But is true people learn faster what is socially acceptable or not depending on the retributions and how fast they get them.

    And the fact that someone makes breaking into a woman’s house and forcing her signficantly worse (it is worse on the level that he’s breaking in, but) than forcing himself on a woman who’s unconscious makes me want to head desk.

    If you are referring to me. I was just constructing scenarios. I think we need to find out exactly what they mean “by getting away with it” if we take the Gone with the wind example. Rett got away with rape because Scarlet liked it and was pleased with the sex, we don’t know the details but we also don’t know if they were thinking on convincing a woman with only their sex skills to enjoy themselves, in contrast with having her screaming and crying all the way to the act, or be completely unresponsive during the act and not been able to get arrested for it, again I’m trying to seek exactly what they meant by that. Does the study covers this up?

    aside: You know, I have a lot of sympathy for mentally handicapped people for a variety of reasons, but I just thought of one more. Obviously they’re not capable of giving consent, but you have to wonder, what if one of them really really wants to have/experience sex? It’s literally against the law for them (well… not for them, but for every potential partner).

    In the news a couple of years ago there was the story about a handicapped guy in his 40 that asked her sisters for experiencing sex with a woman, and they hired a prostitute for him. Of course this was a Latin country, not sure how American’s will handle a request like that.

  • jamie

    @ Matt C

    Yohami: Men should have total sexual freedom and be celebrated for their sexual choices– from abstinence to sluthood. There. :)

    Before that, we should solve that nasty problem of how it is significantly more difficult for men to get laid than women.

    This really isn’t a female problem. Guys are the ones who will screw any girl who asks. Sounds like a problem of your own making and there isn’t much I, or any other woman, can do about it. Even if I were screwing 5 nerds a week, I’d hardly make a dent towards a solution. Instead, I’d just be generating a whole other problem for you guys to complain about…especially Jesus Mahoney.

    Actually, Jesus, what are you thoughts on the “nerd fucking charity” idea? I’d check if the domain name is available, but that seems a little NSFW.

  • William

    They’re looking to not be judged negatively, the problem is that weather it be positive or negative…

    Everyone judges everything.

    Nothing can be exempt from being judged

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    The pornographic description of rape involved, in one case, the man violently forcing the woman while she screamed and clearly abhored it, and in another case, a man forcing the woman but she enjoyed it.

    Well, the second case doesn’t sound very much like rape at all (Rhett Butler), & the first case.. basically most men get turned on simply from seeing an attractive naked woman, largely regardless of the setting. It’s a difference between the sexes that men can detatch, & hard to explain to the other half but they do. So when witnessing a fictional depiction of ‘rape’ even though they may register arousal (as many women will, also), that doesn’t mean they’d prefer it, it simply means they’re alive & horny & they’d like to get laid. And it still doesn’t mean they’d go out & rape someone in real life.

    Also, as Stephenie said, a larger proportion of women report rape fantasies than men, but we don’t take that to mean a third of women are wanting to be actually raped.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      David Lisak, a professor at UMass Boston, has been getting a lot of attention for his research on rape, which is based on interviews with nearly 2,000 male college students.

      http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf

      From Wikipedia:
      “Approximately 1 in 16 men, using Lisak’s survey, reported that they had committed rape. Lisak found that, like imprisoned rapists, these “undetected” rapists were often repeat offenders, with serial rapists accounting for 90% of campus rapes. On average, each of these men committed approximately 6 rapes. Lisak also says that rapists target vulnerable victims, such as female freshmen who have less experience with drinking and are more likely to take risks, or people who are already intoxicated; they use alcohol as a weapon, as it makes the victim more vulnerable at the time but also impairs their credibility with the justice system should they choose to report the rape.”

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “Agreed. She looks very unhappy. I want to ask her how it’s working out so far?”

    I don’t think she’s working out at all.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I don’t think she’s working out at all.

    :)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I don’t think she’s working out at all.

    haha

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Thinking more about the male detatchment thing: I remember Lenny Bruce describing it best for me:

    “Let me put it this way: a girl can’t go through a plate glass window & want to go to bed with you five seconds later. It just doesn’t feel good. But a guy can have head-on collisions, in disaster areas.. then in the ambulance, the guy makes a play for the nurse!
    ‘you animal! How could you?! How could you do such a thing at a time like that?’
    [mumbles] ‘Well. I got horny.’
    ‘What?’
    ‘I got hot.’
    ‘How could you get hot? Your foot’s cut off!’
    ‘I don’t know.’
    ‘He’s an animal! He got hot with his foot cut off!’
    [mumbles] ‘I guess I’m an animal.’
    ‘What did you get hot at?’
    ‘The nurse’s uniform.’

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I don’t think she’s working out at all

    Working out is oppressive and misogynist :p

  • Matt C

    Working out is oppressive and misogynist :p

    Men desire fit women!? Those sexist bastards!

  • Matt C

    brightstormyday:

    I’ve never met a girl who called drunken sex rape or thought of it as such. I’ve never met anyone who reported a guy for sexually assault or verbal assault because he cat called her and/or tried to grind on her at a party. (Though I do know a girl who got a write up at her job for hitting on another girl….smh) So clearly the feminist stance on rape hasn’t really caught on. And again, the news headlines are going to back on the unusual, not what’s significantly more common.

    I will ask you the same question I asked Susan earlier. If a drunk girl pulled a drunk guy back to an empty room and initiated sex with him, is it rape? If she regretted having sex with him the next morning, is it rape?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Susan,

    Approximately 1 in 16 men, using Lisak’s survey, reported that they had committed rape.

    Which sounds more credible… until this:

    such as female freshmen who have less experience with drinking and are more likely to take risks, or people who are already intoxicated; they use alcohol as a weapon

    So these rapists “target” younger, horny, risk-taker drunken girls?

    Bullshit alert again

    use alcohol as a weapon

    As in “can I buy you a drink?” maybe when the girl asks you to buy her a drink thats a rape invitation?

    Seriously. DATA. Data before conclusions. Casual drunken sex isnt rape. Forceful lack of consent sex is rape. Wherent slutswalkes saying most rape is unrelated to sexy clothing? that would make it also unrealated to clubbing and parties, and contradict the study.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Approximately 1 in 16 men, using Lisak’s survey, reported that they had committed rape.

    Define rape.

  • White Cloud

    “Also, as Stephenie said, a larger proportion of women report rape fantasies than men, but we don’t take that to mean a third of women are wanting to be actually raped.”

    How much do you wanna bet that the “rape fantasy” study had a small selection group of a few hundred to a few thousand (at most) white women from either the USA, UK, Canada, Australia or Western Europe and the “rape” imagined was actually a seduction at the hands of a very skillful and highly attractive man whom the women desired?

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    In the news a couple of years ago there was the story about a handicapped guy in his 40 that asked her sisters for experiencing sex with a woman, and they hired a prostitute for him. Of course this was a Latin country, not sure how American’s will handle a request like that.

    As always with the USA, I’d say, “probably varies from state to state”. Was there any reaction in that Latin country – particularly legal reactions?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    just went over this http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf

    Sexual predators etc, etc, all male, the big sinister stuff happening in campus. No definition for “rape” nor data on how this stuff is being measured. The conclusion precedes the data = bs.

  • White Cloud

    “If a drunk girl pulled a drunk guy back to an empty room and initiated sex with him, is it rape?”

    YES.

    I know a guy who this happened to. He woke up naked in a strange apartment with 3 girls in the bed. He feels he was raped but cannot prove it so didn’t report it.

  • White Cloud

    “Lisak also says that rapists target vulnerable victims, such as female freshmen who have less experience with drinking and are more likely to take risks”

    I’ve got another anecdote. A college freshman who came from a demographic that is not able to hold their liquor too well got only slightly drunk at a college party. Her friends convinced her not to drive home so she stayed at their house. She was sleeping when one of the guys entered the room, covered her mouth so nobody could here her screams, and then raped her. She felt so confused and ashamed that she never reported it. She knew her family and everyone else would blame her. Especially she could not have faced her family with this.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    How much do you wanna bet that the “rape fantasy” study had a small selection group of a few hundred to a few thousand (at most) white women from either the USA, UK, Canada, Australia or Western Europe and the “rape” imagined was actually a seduction at the hands of a very skillful and highly attractive man whom the women desired?

    Well, exactly: this shows how incredibly subjective the use of the term ‘Rape’ can be.

    I haven’t looked at the evidence for women’s rape fantasies for a while but I was under the impression it was a fairly well-accepted phenomena by now. It’s been a reliable constant through Nancy Friday’s documentations of women’s fantasies for a good 30, 40 years.

  • Matt C

    Sexual predators etc, etc, all male, the big sinister stuff happening in campus. No definition for “rape” nor data on how this stuff is being measured. The conclusion precedes the data = bs.

    Exactly. There’s no way 1 in 16 men are rapists. If 1 in 16 men are raping 6 women at a time, then that would mean that over 33% of women are getting raped (if you don’t include crossover, which would be ridiculous).

    I am still under the belief that the vast majority of men are good.

    I’ve got another anecdote. A college freshman who came from a demographic that is not able to hold their liquor too well got only slightly drunk at a college party. Her friends convinced her not to drive home so she stayed at their house. She was sleeping when one of the guys entered the room, covered her mouth so nobody could here her screams, and then raped her. She felt so confused and ashamed that she never reported it. She knew her family and everyone else would blame her. Especially she could not have faced her family with this.

    This discussion is getting really serious now. A little TOO serious.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White,

    She was sleeping when one of the guys entered the room, covered her mouth so nobody could here her screams, and then raped her.

    Yes. Thats proper rape, thanks. If 1 in 3 guys or even 1 in 16 is fine by doing that as long as he doesnt get caught, we are fucked up.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    1 in 16 guys raped 6 women each during college (a lifespan of 5 years) which means they can continue to rape at least another 30 women or so during their lifetime, which results in 12305% of women being raped.

    In other words a woman is raped before she is even born and raped after she is dead. We are suffering for a rape victim shortage really.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohmami

      1 in 16 guys raped 6 women each during college (a lifespan of 5 years) which means they can continue to rape at least another 30 women or so during their lifetime, which results in 12305% of women being raped.

      In other words a woman is raped before she is even born and raped after she is dead. We are suffering for a rape victim shortage really.

      Brilliant. For the record, I share your skepticism of David Lisak’s claims. However, he’s the darling of the sexual assault activists right now. My best friend is a doc at Student Health Services at Tufts University, and she wholeheartedly endorses his research. We got into a rather heated argument about it – now I can print your comment and whip it out to prove her wrong, haha.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    *suffering of

  • White Cloud

    “I haven’t looked at the evidence for women’s rape fantasies for a while but I was under the impression it was a fairly well-accepted phenomena by now. It’s been a reliable constant through Nancy Friday’s documentations of women’s fantasies for a good 30, 40 years.”

    What was her sample size and how many countries did she document this in?

    As far as the young man who said he woke up in a strange apartment with 3 smiling and giggling young women in his bed and suspected he had been raped, what do the men here think about that? Does the possibility of it being rape increase or decrease depending on how fat/ugly, thin/beautiful the three girls were?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    What was her sample size and how many countries did she document this in?

    Nancy Friday’s books aren’t the scientific studies, I just mentioned them because ‘My Secret Garden’, ‘Women On Top’ etc are so well known & mainstream. But as I understand it, she gathered her examples from English speaking countries, mostly America.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    As far as the young man who said he woke up in a strange apartment with 3 smiling and giggling young women in his bed and suspected he had been raped, what do the men here think about that? Does the possibility of it being rape increase or decrease depending on how fat/ugly, thin/beautiful the three girls were?

    To a certain degree, yes. But I think most men, unless they were physically hurt in some way, would most likely just shrug it off & say ‘That was weird. Oh well, shit happens’ & go on with their life. There is a great gulf between the way men & women see their own bodies.

  • White Cloud

    “To a certain degree, yes. But I think most men, unless they were physically hurt in some way, would most likely just shrug it off & say ‘That was weird. Oh well, shit happens’ & go on with their life. There is a great gulf between the way men & women see their own bodies.”

    Then why are so many men trying to equalize rape and sexual assault? So many mens’ blogs are now talking about how women rape and sexually assault teenage boys. They are demanding justice and jail time. What is this all about?

    If its true that there is a great gulf between the way men and women see their own bodies, then that might explain why some men don’t see pressuring or forcing a woman to have sex as any sort of big deal.

    I’ve never heard of Nancy Friday.

    “she gathered her examples from English speaking countries, mostly America.”

    Some samples from White America do not extrapolate into “rape fantasies being popular amongst women”.

    At most we can say some White American women have that fantasy. And again, without reading I can tell you its not “rape” but seduction at the hands of a highly desirable lover.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    why are so many men trying to equalize rape and sexual assault? So many mens’ blogs are now talking about how women rape and sexually assault teenage boys. They are demanding justice and jail time. What is this all about?

    Equal rights in the eyes of the law.

    without reading I can tell you its not “rape” but seduction at the hands of a highly desirable lover.

    That’s an amazing gift you have! Now, can you tell me how many fingers I’m holding up?
    :)

  • Jess

    Susan et al
    .
    Dress.
    I didnt say dress in a frumpy way- just restrict showing a bit of leg in certain situations. Personally I have never been one for fashion so am happy in jeans and t shirt always. I only get overt attention in a shortish dress.
    .
    Penile references,
    Susan, this may be the 4th time you brought up the subject and then alluded to my apparent fascination with the topic. in this recent example, to avoid your doing so again, I bypassed any reference to size as to focus on the rape issue only. Yet you did it again!
    .
    2 years ago I did indeed engage in a debate on the size issue and as usual I argued my corner as I always do. I’m unsure as to why you keep on about this fact. I stand by my comments made on all these threads old and recent.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess

      in this recent example, to avoid your doing so again, I bypassed any reference to size as to focus on the rape issue only

      There is something more than a little odd about setting up a hypothetical rape with a man I knew well who happened to have a micropenis. The guy was just trying to have the normal sexual experience, not rape anyone. I brought up the size issue because you referred specifically to that post, which is about penis size.

  • Jess

    Susan re my rape example with douche
    .
    Thank you for your reply. I agree with your view.
    To expand my examples, would it be rape in the following?
    1. One was planning to have sex but changed mind after clothes came off. Guy insists anyway.
    2. As above but guy is at point of insertion. Girl says no. Guy ignores her.
    3. As above but guy is 2 mins into sex.
    4. Sex is completed but guy wants round 2 against girls wishes
    5. Halfway through vaginal sex guy insists upon anal against girls wishes

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jess

      1. One was planning to have sex but changed mind after clothes came off. Guy insists anyway.
      2. As above but guy is at point of insertion. Girl says no. Guy ignores her.
      3. As above but guy is 2 mins into sex.
      4. Sex is completed but guy wants round 2 against girls wishes
      5. Halfway through vaginal sex guy insists upon anal against girls wishes

      1 and 2 are clearcut cases of rape.
      3 is obviously not a case of rape, even if he refuses to pull out, in my view. The horse is out of the barn. However, a man of good character would pull out at that point – who knows what trauma or past history might cause a woman to change her mind after sex had already begun?
      Re 4 and 5, Yohami is right. “Wanting” or “insisting” with words is not rape. If he physically overpowers her and forces her to engage in either act, it’s rape.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    1. One was planning to have sex but changed mind after clothes came off. Guy insists anyway.
    2. As above but guy is at point of insertion. Girl says no. Guy ignores her.
    3. As above but guy is 2 mins into sex.
    4. Sex is completed but guy wants round 2 against girls wishes
    5. Halfway through vaginal sex guy insists upon anal against girls wishes

    “Guy insistence” isnt rape so none of the above.

    Better explain what happened after the guy insisted. Did she say “ok” / let him continue? Did she object strongly? if she objected strongly (like, saying NO and getting dressed), did the guy knock her out / tied her to the bed / grabbed her firmly while she screamed and cried? or?

    “insistence” and “pressuring” is not a crime, or we would be also jailing every girlfriend ever.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Sex is completed but guy wants round 2 against girls wishes

    What would be rape here, that the guy “wants” round 2. Better explain the actions that follow. “Wanting” is not rape.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    All of those examples are in a pretty grey area. Bad behaviour, yes, but Rape, probably no. Or at least not with just the information you’ve provided.

  • Pingback: Randoms « Foseti()

  • Jess

    Sorry, you are all quite right. I sacrificed sufficient detail for brevity.
    When I said insisted I meant forcing her against her clearly stated will.
    No use of weapons or punching….
    Just a larger human overpowering another and smothering her in such a way that her cries could not be heard.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    White,

    The magic of words

    When I said insisted I meant forcing her against her clearly stated will.

    Whenever theres forced sex against anyones will theres rape. The scenario is irrelevant. Forced sex is a long shot from “wanting, insisting, pressuring”

  • Stephenie Rowling

    How much do you wanna bet that the “rape fantasy” study had a small selection group of a few hundred to a few thousand (at most) white women from either the USA, UK, Canada, Australia or Western Europe and the “rape” imagined was actually a seduction at the hands of a very skillful and highly attractive man whom the women desired?

    The most popular Telenovela in whole Latin America in the 80’s was Leonela. Were the lead female was raped by the lead male and they end up falling in love, having a child and getting married… They made a remake in 1997
    I would go on a limb and say that in a random sample you will find more or less the same amount of women with a rape fantasy. Of course this doesn’t mean that they want to be raped but I do think is a common enough motif, YMMV.

    As always with the USA, I’d say, “probably varies from state to state”. Was there any reaction in that Latin country – particularly legal reactions?

    It was in the curious news section and the man asked her sister’s assistance. So why would the law intervene? The thing is we are a bit more open to study cases in a particular basis and not assume that a handicap that gets horny and ask for help to experience sex was abused,YMMV.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    force => applied over the body, while ignoring the will
    wanting, insisting, pressuring ==> applied over the will, to get consent

    Id argue that both extremes are not done by the same people. In my mind, rapist go directly to force because they know they wont have consent (and not having consent being part of the appeal), so what would be the point for rapists to want, insist, pressure, if they already contemplate force?

    In my mind a rapists isolates the girl to a location where she is vulnerable and then takes over her, skipping the “I want to have sex” part

    I have no data to back this up though

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      force => applied over the body, while ignoring the will
      wanting, insisting, pressuring ==> applied over the will, to get consent

      I can’t believe we’re even discussing pressure as a form of rape. Coercion is not rape, if no physical threat of violence is present. I agree with an earlier comment that it is not possible to be tricked into sex. Even if you’ve been lied to it is not rape. The Israel “rape by deception” case proves that not all agree:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew

      The woman would not have had sex if she didn’t believe the man was a Jew interested in a serious relationship. How could she have believed such a thing to be true with a man she knew nothing about?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    *need to type proof my stuff…

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    and that was for Jess, not White. oh well.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    “Just a larger human overpowering another and smothering her in such a way that her cries could not be heard.”

    What is particularly distasteful about Jess’s line of questioning here is the assumption of evil on behalf of the man (AKA ‘the guy’) that would never in a million years be projected onto the woman (AKA ‘the small, frail creature whose cries can not be heard’).

    Rape, as is being discussed here, is a legal term. There are very few women I have been with who, if they were told 2 seconds before coming ‘No, I want you to stop’, would be able to do so. Which might be bad for me, if I were having an unpleasant time of it, but that doesn’t mean I would want to have the police come & take my lover away & have their life destroyed. Which a judgement of Rape would require.

    The situation as you first described it could easiy be regarded in a relationship as momentary misunderstandings or miscommunications. The additional melodramatic touches you’ve added would obviously make it rape.
    Congratulations, you must be so happy.

  • White Cloud

    Jess, ”Penile references,
    Susan, this may be the 4th time you brought up the subject and then alluded to my apparent fascination with the topic. in this recent example, to avoid your doing so again, I bypassed any reference to size as to focus on the rape issue only. Yet you did it again!”

    That’s because size matters.

  • http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/ Nate Winchester

    It was in the curious news section and the man asked her sister’s assistance. So why would the law intervene?

    I’m starting to like the sound of your country. Sometimes around here in the USA? I wonder…

    Doing a search (hope I’m not any watch lists now) I see a form like this one:
    http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/4-FormerCrimes/130pre2003/130.30(2).pdf

    It is an element of this crime that the sexual intercourse
    takes place without consent.

    Sexual intercourse takes place without a person’s consent when that person is deemed by law to b e i n c a pable of consent. Under our law, a person is deemed INCA P A B L E OF CONSENTING to sexual intercourse when he or she is mentally disabled [or mentally incapacitated]

    Thus, sexual in t e rcourse with such a person is always
    deemed to be without that pers o n ‘ s c o nsent, even if in fact that
    person did consent

    In order for you to find the defendant guilty of this crime, the
    People are required to prove, from all the evidence in the case,
    beyond a reasonable doubt, both of the following two elements:
    1. That on or about (da te), in the county of (county) the
    defendant (defendant’s name), engaged in sexual
    intercourse with (complainant ’s name); and,
    2. That (complainant ’s name) was incapable of consent
    by reason of being mentally disa b l e d [or mentally
    incapacitated].
    Therefore, if you find that the People have proven beyond a
    reasonable doubt, both of those elements, you must find the
    defendant guilty of the crime of Rape in the Se c ond Degre

    Which means the answer to your question of “why would law get involved” would be… because it was 2nd degree rape (apparently).

    I’m sure that’s more than any of us wanted to know.

  • White Cloud

    Stephanie, a telenovela with that particular story line doesn’t mean that “rape fantasies” are common throughout the world. There have been a few TV movies and even a North American soap opera that also had the same story line. It still doesn’t tell me that a significant portion of our planet’s women have rape fantasies anymore than cuckold porn tells me that being cuckolded is a common global male fantasy.

  • White Cloud

    A disabled adult requests a family member to arrange a sexual encounter for him – SO WHAT? I don’t get the big deal.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I’m starting to like the sound of your country. Sometimes around here in the USA? I wonder…

    It was not in my country but it was in Latin America. I didn’t knew there was a mandatory possibility to consent in this cases in USA. Isn’t that a bit restricting? I mean I would guess some of this people have the same needs as all of us, shouldn’t the law try to establish the consent before placing all in the same bracket?
    But then I guess they are trying to avoid the measure of a man issue if they allow this a 14 year old that wants to consent to sex with an older man will also have a case. Oh well the first world has many good other things, like running hot an cold water, permanent electricity, safest cities, plenty of food… no country is perfect. Not even USA.

  • White Cloud

    Since mens’ blogs call cuckolding “rape” and since cuckold porn is an increasingly popular genre of fetish porn created by and for men, can we then conclude that men also have “rape fantasies”?

    ;)

  • SayWhaat

    I think there’s a bit of a confusion with the very term “rape fantasy”. I think it’s more accurate to say that women fantasize about being ravished. “You look ravishing”, for example, is considered to be a high compliment because it means that the woman in question looks incredibly desirable. The term “ravishing” connotes consent because a woman being ravished is being ravished by a man whom she also finds incredibly desirable. The term “rape” connotes something incredibly more violent and not at all pleasurable, and most certainly not something I would say 99.9% of women desire at all.

  • GudEnuf

    SayWhaat:

    The term “rape” connotes something incredibly more violent and not at all pleasurable, and most certainly not something I would say 99.9% of women desire at all.

    Fantasy is not the same as desire. A lot of women have rape (more than ravishment) fantasies but have no desire to actually be raped.

  • SayWhaat

    GudEnuf, you are missing my point. I am saying that when women say they have “rape” fantasies, what they actually mean is they fantasize about being ravished.

  • Matt C

    GudEnuf, you are missing my point. I am saying that when women say they have “rape” fantasies, what they actually mean is they fantasize about being ravished.

    Ironically, I read a story of a feminist paying a gigolo to reenact a forced rape to fulfill her rape fantasy. Explain that one to me.

    Even more ironically it came from this blog: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/04/18/whatguyswant/is-feminism-desires-kryptonite/.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ironically, I read a story of a feminist paying a gigolo to reenact a forced rape to fulfill her rape fantasy. Explain that one to me.

      In the Rebecca Traister article I based this post on, she describes a woman who developed PTSD after being “creeped out” by male attention, and to deal with it, she had someone enact sex at gunpoint with her. Why do insane people get paid to write their stories for public consumption?

  • Lavazza

    OhioStater: Yeah, like in Saturday Night Fever.

    Tony Manero: Are you a nice girl or are you a cunt?
    Annette: Can’t I be both?
    Tony Manero: No. It’s a decision a girl’s gotta make early in life, if she’s gonna be a nice girl or a cunt.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WhiteCloud,

    “That’s because size matters.”

    Same holds true for men. It’s sex; we don’t want it to feel like a spelunking expedition.

  • White Cloud

    Jesus Mahoney says:
    July 27, 2011 at 2:41 am
    WhiteCloud,

    “That’s because size matters.”

    Same holds true for men. It’s sex; we don’t want it to feel like a spelunking expedition.

    The bigger you are, the less it will feel like a spelunking expedition ;)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    WhiteCloud,

    “Since mens’ blogs call cuckolding “rape” and since cuckold porn is an increasingly popular genre of fetish porn created by and for men, can we then conclude that men also have “rape fantasies”?”

    I have to say that the very existence of cuckold porn is sad to me, and probably the result of the shaming of men for being men. “Nice guys” neutering themselves to such an extent that they can only get off by proxy.

    If cuckold porn is indeed “increasing in popularity”, then that very fact ought to tell us that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our society views men and women.

  • White Cloud

    “Ironically, I read a story of a feminist paying a gigolo to reenact a forced rape to fulfill her rape fantasy. Explain that one to me.”

    She’s in the same category as the men who pay other men to have sex with their wives so they can watch.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “The bigger you are, the less it will feel like a spelunking expedition”

    lol… Just do your kegels and you won’t need a battering ram cut from the Redwood Forest…..

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Saywhaat,

    ‘Ravished’ is an almost interchangeable word for rape which has somehow come into more polite usage – there is nothing in the word that implies consent:

    rav·ish·ment n.
    1. The act of seizing by force.
    2. Sexual rape.
    3. Rapture; entrancement.

    1. ravishment – a feeling of delight at being filled with wonder and enchantment
    2. ravishment – the crime of forcing a woman to submit to sexual intercourse against her will

    What’s interesting about the word is the coupling of the two meanings, i guess to say something like: “your beauty is so great & fills me with such desire as to put me in danger of losing control & wanting to take you, regardless of the consequences”.

    It would seem to me to indicate the meanings of the word come from a time before male sexuality was pathologized, when the magnetic pull between male & female was seen with wonder & awe, rather than as simply a court case waiting to happen.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I have to say that the very existence of cuckold porn is sad to me, and probably the result of the shaming of men for being men. “Nice guys” neutering themselves to such an extent that they can only get off by proxy.

    Yup.

    If cuckold porn is indeed “increasing in popularity”, then that very fact ought to tell us that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our society views men and women.

    Absolutely. A man who gets off on that must really feel at the bottom of the heap. It’s a strange one, alright.

  • White Cloud

    Jesus Mahoney says:
    July 27, 2011 at 3:26 am
    “The bigger you are, the less it will feel like a spelunking expedition”

    lol… Just do your kegels and you won’t need a battering ram cut from the Redwood Forest…..

    But I might need the type of guy that is traditionally hired to perform at cuckold parties ;)

    And if cuckold fetish “ought to tell us that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our society views men and women” what about men who suggest FFM threesomes to their heterosexual girlfriends/wives and the women who allow that?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Byron,

    “It would seem to me to indicate the meanings of the word come from a time before male sexuality was pathologized, when the magnetic pull between male & female was seen with wonder & awe, rather than as simply a court case waiting to happen.”

    This whole vague line between ravishment and rape highlights something important. Many activists (feminists included) fail to distinguish between problems and difficulties. Problems have clear solutions: something’s out of alignment and can be re-aligned. Difficulties, by contrast, are murky and ambiguous. They simply need to be waded through.

    Feminists cry out that rape is about power, not sex. What they fail to realize is that sex itself, with the polarities of masculine and feminine, dominance and submission, is about power, too.

    Most feminists sense this but refuse to acknowledge it. Feminists fight hard to erase any distinctions between the sexes, but then when they’re faced with a nice guy who sees them as equals and doesn’t act with any display of male dominance, they’re just as turned off as any other woman would be.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    White Cloud,

    “But I might need the type of guy that is traditionally hired to perform at cuckold parties”

    You have fun with that…..

  • White Cloud

    “Feminists cry out that rape is about power, not sex. What they fail to realize is that sex itself, with the polarities of masculine and feminine, dominance and submission, is about power, too. ”

    Jesus, I said the same thing. When men refer to women as “targets” and racking up “notches”, and treat sexual encounters as “conquests” and this is CONSENSUAL sex we’re talking about – why is it then that when women say, “rape is about power” these mens’ blogs are saying NO it’s not?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    White Cloud,

    “why is it then that when women say, “rape is about power” these mens’ blogs are saying NO it’s not?”

    I don’t know. Ask them.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    White Cloud,

    My point though, was that you can’t solve the “problem” of rape by removing a man’s desire to overpower a woman, because the dominance/submission dynamic is something inherent in all sex. In fact, I would say that shaming and trying to repress this desire will only cause it to come out in twisted and pathological forms like rape and assault.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Jesus, I said the same thing. When men refer to women as “targets” and racking up “notches”, and treat sexual encounters as “conquests” and this is CONSENSUAL sex we’re talking about – why is it then that when women say, “rape is about power” these mens’ blogs are saying NO it’s not?

    Because it’s politicizing ordinary relationships between men & women, & because in most cases what gets counted as rape is more about sex than it is about power.

    And you’re not saying the same thing as Mahoney – his point is that ‘the polarities of masculine and feminine, dominance and submission’ are natural, innate & therefore healthy. Your stance seems to be the opposite – to treat the places male sexuality diverge from female sexuality as if they were criminal & pathological, & all men as if they were rapists waiting to happen.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan:

    The woman would not have had sex if she didn’t believe the man was a Jew interested in a serious relationship. How could she have believed such a thing to be true with a man she knew nothing about?

    I think that case was more inspired by bigotry than an actual concern about sexual assault. Do you think Israel would have prosecuted a Jewish man who claimed to be Muslim?

    But there are some tougher cases regard “rape by deception.” In one case, a man impersonated his identical twin so he could get with his girlfriend. In another, a doctor told a gullible patient that she had a serious medical condition that could only be cured by sexual intercourse. Both women pressed charges for rape, but I don’t remember how they turned out.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “And you’re not saying the same thing as Mahoney – his point is that ‘the polarities of masculine and feminine, dominance and submission’ are natural, innate & therefore healthy. Your stance seems to be the opposite – to treat the places male sexuality diverge from female sexuality as if they were criminal & pathological, & all men as if they were rapists waiting to happen.”

    Yup.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Why do insane people get paid to write their stories for public consumption?”

    Because we love to read about them and think, “at least I’m not her.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    “Your stance seems to be the opposite – to treat the places male sexuality diverge from female sexuality as if they were criminal & pathological, & all men as if they were rapists waiting to happen.”

    Moreover, this view of male sexuality as abhorrent contributes to the problem rather than mitigating it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The feminist view of male sexuality reminds me of Nietzsche’s view of Christianity. Nietzsche said, “The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.” I would say that the feminist resolution to find male sexuality ugly and bad has helped to make male sexuality ugly and bad.

  • GudEnuf

    Hey Susan, which one are you?

  • Esau

    JM “I would say that the feminist resolution to find male sexuality ugly and bad has helped to make male sexuality ugly and bad.”

    +1

    see also my less (concise comment) above, July 24 8:55 pm [Susan, we could really use numbering for the comments on these long exchanges] http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/07/23/politics-and-feminism/the-fractured-feminist-position-on-slut-walks/#comment-50629

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Update on leaving comments:

      I have added an editor – commenters can now preview or edit their comments, assuming all works correctly. I am still looking for a lightweight plugin for numbering – it seems like such a simple thing, I must be missing something. Will stay on it.

  • Blues

    In another, a doctor told a gullible patient that she had a serious medical condition that could only be cured by sexual intercourse.

    That’s more like rape by stupidity than by deception.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In another, a doctor told a gullible patient that she had a serious medical condition that could only be cured by sexual intercourse.

      A woman would have to be cognitively challenged to fall for that. If she had any wits, she’d promise to have sex with someone she was attracted to soon, then report him. I once mentioned in passing to two MD friends that I was so pleased with my internist. He had just spent a full ten minutes on my breast exam during a routine checkup. They looked at one another, then both exclaimed I needed to find a new internist immediately. Apparently, a thorough breast exam takes less than a minute.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    Thanks. Yea, i recall reading your post. I think we’re pretty much saying the same thing. I don’t think that feminism alone is responsible for making male sexuality ugly and bad. Any time men are shamed for their sexuality, it becomes twisted. Shame has been going on long before feminism. Feminism has just elevated shaming men for their sexuality to a religion.

  • Anonymous

    Butterfly Flower wrote:

    My boyfriend and I have hot make-out sessions; I’m sure sex can easily “just happen” but I’m smart and draw a line. We actually have a “don’t take off your pants” rule.

    That’s not chastity. That’s just being a cock tease. Why make out with the guy if sex is off the table?

  • OffTheCuff

    That’s not chastity. That’s just being a cock tease. Why make out with the guy if sex is off the table?

    Come on, be fair to BF here. She’s a virgin. When I was a teen, I would have happily done the boyfriend no-sex thing for quite a while, if the girl was a virgin too.

    It’s only a cocktease if she has had sex with other people, but makes YOU wait because you’re “special” (read: chump).

  • Butterfly Flower

    That’s not chastity. That’s just being a cock tease. Why make out with the guy if sex is off the table?

    Sex was never on the table, we’re both Christians waiting until marriage.

  • OffTheCuff

    I can’t believe we’re even discussing pressure as a form of rape. Coercion is not rape, if no physical threat of violence is present.

    Welcome to the world where a word means whatever you want it to mean, especially if it furthers your political power. Did you know looking at a pretty woman is “violence”?

    “It’s a form of violence in the way that we look at women and the way we expect them to look and be for what sake? Not for health, survival, not for enjoyment of life, but just so you could look pretty.”

    http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/26/actress-sounds-off-on-body-image-extremes/?hpt=hp_t2

    There you have it. Thoughts = violence.

  • Abbot

    a larger human overpowering another and smothering her in such a way that her cries could not be heard.

    .
    That is generally how feminists feel when contemplating their world view of men. The utter frustration coming from cries not being heard has manifest in viral feminist blogs, screeching speeches, blowhard slut–walks and feeble attempts to redefine the truth on this very website. So tell me, how’s it working so far?

  • Aldonza

    @Yohami

    plus when was the last time I heard of a guy rejecting a girl because she was “creepy?” eh. never. fat? sure. ugly? sure. creepy? damn. never.

    Replace “creepy” with “clingy”. It’s really the same behavior but within a more relationship construct.

  • Aldonza

    @White Cloud

    Yohami, unless you are a rapist, you would not know. Interview upon interview with actual rapists have shown that there is most definetly a twisted power element behind it. Why should that surprise you when you have men for whom regular consensual sex goes like this;

    Actually, criminologists have discovered several distinct types of rapists. Power is a part of all of them, but to a much greater or lessor degree, depending on the type of rapist.

    http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/CrimPsych/CPSG-5.htm

  • Blues

    Sex was never on the table, we’re both Christians waiting until marriage.

    As long as you explicitly stated this yes.

    “It’s a form of violence in the way that we look at women and the way we expect them to look and be for what sake? Not for health, survival, not for enjoyment of life, but just so you could look pretty.”

    *rollseyes*

    “It’s a form of violence in the way that we look at men and the way we expect them commit and be for what sake? Not for genuine life time partnership, not for more than simple economical support, not for companionship and enjoyment of life, but just so you could achieve your biological purpose.”

  • Abbot

    they love sluts – but they go into the slut pile, not the relationship pile.

    .
    That is the EXACT and ONLY reason for slut..walks. Infuriating anger over the centuries-old dual-pile system has intensified as more women today fearfully see what pile they’re headed for. These slut…walks are an attempt to get me to come around to another [read: self-serving feminist] way of thinking. Its a cop out from having to do the hard work of actually dealing with men individually; its a way to escape from having to negotiate with a particular man; its an attempt to “put” the shame on men for considering slut behavior as a mate selection criteria. So, how’s it working so far?

  • Clarence

    Aldonza:
    Not that sex is at least present in terms of motivation for some of them, even if you take this list as exhaustive, which I don’t.
    In short, rape is about power, not sex, is wrong when stated as an absolute.

  • Abbot

    These slut…walks are an attempt to get men to come around to another [read: self-serving feminist] way of thinking.
    .
    It has to start with men. Not with government. Not with laws. With men. If men, for no good reason, let go of the dual-pile system on a personal level then it will automatically go away society-wide. That is one concept the feminists are correct about. But how are they going about getting men to change? Uh huh

  • Abbot

    Since feminists defined rape to be about power and not sex [and vehemently stick to this interpretation] then it must have been to their advantage to have done so. What was their motivation for this redefinition?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Mahoney,

    Nietzsche said, “The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.” I would say that the feminist resolution to find male sexuality ugly and bad has helped to make male sexuality ugly and bad.

    This is gold. Never heard it put quite like that, in those words, but that expresses pretty much everything I want to say about the last half page of comments on this thread.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Because we love to read about them and think, “at least I’m not her.”

    I always told my husband that I love the internet because it makes me feel normal. That being said I don’t purposely seek the crazy so is usually shocking to see them being so open about how awful they are. Which shows how much self awareness they lack. A pity indeed.

  • http://www.singlemind.net Amir Larijani

    Susan: What’s also crazy about the Slutwalkers is that they have their panties in a twist over what was actually good advice. The police officer was merely offering sound advice for women to mitigate their risks.

    Since when does advice about risk mitigation–that we provide to children all the time in the form of “don’t accept candy from strangers” to “don’t go wandering alone” to “stay in the neighborhood”–equate to “blaming the victim”?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Amir Larijani
      Exactly. Why do women reject the advice to behave prudently? Amanda Marcotte says they already know that, they already do it, and that the SlutWalks are supposed to be funny. That’s obviously not the feminist party line, and it’s also untrue.

  • Matt C

    Since when does advice about risk mitigation–that we provide to children all the time in the form of “don’t accept candy from strangers” to “don’t go wandering alone” to “stay in the neighborhood”–equate to “blaming the victim”?

    You can’t ask women to take responsibility for their own actions in this society. That would constitute “blaming the victim”.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Since when does advice about risk mitigation–that we provide to children all the time in the form of “don’t accept candy from strangers” to “don’t go wandering alone” to “stay in the neighborhood”–equate to “blaming the victim”?

    Since women decided that their feelings should always reflect the law. If they fell to be reckless they should be allowed but if they get bad results from this recklessness then they feel society should allow them to blame everyone else for their choices and others should pay for the consequences. Is Feelingarchy.

  • jess

    byron and susan, re rape examples
    .
    firstly susan i selected your own story of the frat guy because its an example of a woman going no further than ‘making out’ when the guy is likely wanting to go the whole way.
    .
    yours is the classic example of the situation which can lead to rape. its almost weekly in british courts. a girl goes to a guys room after a party. she says he then raped her, he says she consented. who’s telling the truth?
    .
    for me no2 was the greyest of all areas and i have met some guys (and the odd girl) that say its NOT rape.
    .
    for me i think i agree with Susan but I know how men can get carried away in those situations.

  • tito

    @Susan

    “I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK.” I

    question for you Susan; had he been “alpha” would you have been freaked out?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK.” I

      question for you Susan; had he been “alpha” would you have been freaked out?

      WHAT? I was 14! I already said he was alpha. He was very much the alpha male with a second trophy wife and two little kids. My best friend’s father also used to call me CG – curvy girl – in 8th grade. I avoided their home like the plague. Any girl who wouldn’t be freaked out by attention from older men at that age is seriously disturbed.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    tito,

    “I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK.” I

    question for you Susan; had he been “alpha” would you have been freaked out?

    The real question is more like, “If you had liked him, would you have been freaked out?”

    I get a cringe from the scenario anyway.

  • Matt C

    yours is the classic example of the situation which can lead to rape. its almost weekly in british courts. a girl goes to a guys room after a party. she says he then raped her, he says she consented. who’s telling the truth?

    Sounds to me like your convinced the guy is the one who lies.

  • William

    The problem with the word “creepy” is that it’s applied to an action only when a certain person is doing it.
    ex. A woman says that a man she finds unattractive smiling at her is creepy.
    The action by itself isn’t creepy, but when done by a someone unattractive it is.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    William,

    The “creepy” means that a man doesnt have “it”. The “it”, as many women have been saying here, is a pretty consistent set of traits, starting by awkwardness.

    Creepy is the opposite as “attractive” male, which is also a pretty consistent set of traits.

    If an attractive guy does something that a specific girl doesnt like, she will say he´s a jerk, a dickhead, a freak, before saying “creep”

    And then there are niches where the set of traits change, but they change FOR A LOT OF WOMEN at the same time. Say. Mainstream media might find Assange from wikileaks creepy, but left wing niches might consider him attractive.

    Creepy is contextual, not to the woman, but to the context she and her friends reside in.

    If the guy has the basic biological / personality checklist though, its unlikely he´ll get the “creepy” regardless of the context.

    Another way to put it in. A creep is a guy who is “trying to do the right thing”, but missing what the right thing is for the context which embodies the woman.

    Since alpha doesnt attempt to “do the right thing” but has his own agenda, the frame changes and creepy doesnt apply.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    *Mainstream media might [FIND] Assange from wikileaks creepy,

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    HOORAY Susan for adding the edit button. I´ll be able to fix my mistakes and make myself look smarter ;-)

  • tito

    @Yohami

    The real question is more like, “If you had liked him, would you have been freaked out?”

    good point (as usual). that is a great way to put it.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Hooray for Edit botton!

    Now can we ask for an ignore button? Pretty please?
    In IMDB you can hide the trolls in your favorite boards and is a great relief to avoid the people that keep saying the same BS time and time again not adding anything to the discussion. Also we could deal with Poly Desi/Plain Jane next time she attacks easier by just ignoring her.
    What do you think?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stephenie
      Yes, there is a plugin that allows people to vote comments up or down, then hides the ones that get voted down. The only problem is it can then look like an echo chamber. This happened on the Hugo Schwyzer blog last week. You can “unhide” the comments, but it takes a click for every one. For now, I plan to leave it as is.

  • White Cloud

    “I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK.”

    “question for you Susan; had he been “alpha” would you have been freaked out?”

    “WHAT? I was 14! I already said he was alpha. He was very much the alpha male with a second trophy wife and two little kids. My best friend’s father also used to call me CG – curvy girl – in 8th grade. I avoided their home like the plague. Any girl who wouldn’t be freaked out by attention from older men at that age is seriously disturbed.”

    It appears that some men have no idea how utterly disgusting it feels to a young girl to be looked at or thought of as a sexual object by father figures.

    I remember I would be disturbed for days and thinking about it would cause me to have a vomiting feeling and also like a million dirty bugs were crawling on your skin.

    I don’t know what these old men are thinking when they do something like that. Can they be that out of touch with reality or is there some serious chemical imbalance in their brain?

    Thank god our society has developed a zero tolerance policy to this sick, depraved phenomena.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    I am still looking for a lightweight plugin for numbering – it seems like such a simple thing, I must be missing something. Will stay on it.

    Thank you for looking!

  • White Cloud

    I have to weigh on this “making out with a guy is a cock tease. if you don’t plan on going all the way, why make-out?” theme.

    Really? A good night kiss is out of bounds unless you plan to let him squeen your boob? A boob feel is out of bounds unless you plan to let him touch your vagina?

    I wonder what all those teenagers back in the 1950s were doing at their front doors at the end of a date or in their cars at drive-in movies if they weren’t having sexual intercourse?

    What about a religious guy or a guy who otherwise on principle doesn’t want to have sex before marriage or commitment who nonetheless wants to kiss and make out with a girl for the simple pleasure of just that? Is he a “clit tease” or “vulva tease” if he gets the girl all hot and bothered and doesn’t deliver the whole shabang right then and there?

    Brilliant.

  • tito

    @Susan

    just asking.

    had you been 22. what would have been the case? would this guy be one who contributes at all to the maintenance of civilization? if not, why is he “alpha?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @tito

      just asking.

      had you been 22. what would have been the case? would this guy be one who contributes at all to the maintenance of civilization? if not, why is he “alpha?”

      He grabbed me aggressively, it was basically a sexual assault. I would not have welcomed his attention at any age.
      He was married, and I had just babysat for his kids. He was obviously an unfaithful husband and a deviant for grabbing an 8th grader.
      I don’t recall his job – so I don’t know whether he made a positive contribution to society. Many bad people do, e.g. Picasso. I don’t define alpha as someone who contributes to the maintenance of civilization. Betas are actually doing much of that work.

  • http://www.plainjaneprims.com/ Leesa M.

    Grown married men, fathers of children, fathers of young girls’ friends, men who are like father or uncle figures to girls, have to be twisted to try any of this sh*t on underaged kids.

    Whether its due to a chemical imbalance or just the outright dismissal of any sense of propriety or decency, I don’t know, but our society has rightly evolved a zero tolerance policy toward it.

    I remember a few things that happened to me as a kid and my stomach still churns when I think about it. When I came home I ran to the bathroom and showered because it felt like a million dirty bugs were crawling on my skin.

    All of this from some comments from a friend’s father. It cost me a friendship. And it cost HIM the respect of his family.

    Worth it?

    That’s something these old pervs are going to have to ask their sorry selves.

  • jess

    steph,
    ignore button…. i just scroll down if I see certain posters….easy peasy.
    .
    mike c,
    I have already said I approve of harsh penalties for false accusers.
    i was making the point that society disagrees about no2. i think its rape- what do you think?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    ignore button…. i just scroll down if I see certain posters….easy peasy.

    Ignore button seems more effective and shortens the length of the threads, IMO. But again is up to Susan. I was just being greedy suggesting more changes. :)

    BTW
    Where is the humor section? :(

  • jess

    you need to activate the ‘funny’ button- its under the advanced panel in ‘settings’

  • Milk Toast

    Since feminists defined rape to be about power and not sex [and vehemently stick to this interpretation] then it must have been to their advantage to have done so. What was their motivation for this redefinition?

    Its not a redefinition. When sociologists and psychologists started interviewing rapists they found that they sought power from the act.

  • Matt C

    mike c,
    I have already said I approve of harsh penalties for false accusers.
    i was making the point that society disagrees about no2. i think its rape- what do you think?

    I hope you meant Matt C.

    No. 2 is rape. The guy is forcing himself inside of the woman. While the decision the man makes in this situation is morally reprehensible and outright WRONG, I will say that NO WOMAN should ever lead a man on like that, ESPECIALLY a young man.

    Being 19 right now, I know this just from what I’m doing right now. I have been going to the gym six days a week, started reading, playing guitar, buying nicer clothes, eating healthier and making fundamental changes in my personality, ALL to become more attractive in the pursuit of more and more sex. My desire for sex is so great that I’m willing to do all of these things to get laid as much as possible. I think about sex 90% of the time. I’m literally losing my fucking mind I think about sex so much.

    Another interesting thing is I think about violent acts too. Some part of me wants to kill something with my barehands. Some part of me wants to fight something or someone to the death. I have thoughts about killing something, anything, almost everyday.

    You combine these two things that (I assume) young men feel at almost ALL TIMES and a situation where sex is clearly put on the table and then immediately removed right before it happens. You have a situation that spells trouble, specifically for the woman.

    I know a lot of this is unrelated to your question. I’m just trying to give you the male perspective.

    When a girl brings a guy so close, so very close to sex and then just takes that opportunity away, the guy is probably going to lose it. Maybe not outwardly, but somewhere deep inside, he’ll be extremely angry. Being young, I haven’t had that experience… yet. I do know just from thinking about it that that kind of situation would make me very very pissed off. I wouldn’t rape the girl or hit the girl, but I might just get outwardly angry in some way.

    I’m sure that’s why more guys say it’s not rape because they backwards rationalize that it is okay because getting so close, then to just stop right before the act. Insane.

    Doesn’t make raping a woman okay though.

    I guess I gave you a bunch of mumbo jumbo BS, but hey, at least you get to see a little bit into the mind of your standard young man.

  • Matt C

    @Susan

    just asking.

    had you been 22. what would have been the case? would this guy be one who contributes at all to the maintenance of civilization? if not, why is he “alpha?”

    Alpha and beta as far as I have seen it on this blog is shorthand for attractive and unattractive.

    What does it mean to contribute to the maintenance of civilization? He had children, provided for them and rose them, is that not enough?

    The gist I got from it was that he was attractive because: he took an emotional risk, was unashamed about it and was comfortable with who he was and what he stood for. That’s damn attractive behavior.

    Your insistence creates a sense of jealousy, tito. You jealous of a guy that is attractive to a 14-old-girl? lol

  • Jack

    Its not a redefinition. When sociologists and psychologists started interviewing rapists they found that they sought power from the act.

    Yes it is. The Feminist description of rape doesn’t comport with any definition of rape derived from research. Criminologists and researchers from other fields have recognized that certain rapist profiles are motivated in varying degrees by a desire for dominance and control. Some aren’t dominance oriented, but use control. Many are simply opportunistic. But none of this research reduces rape intent to the desire to express ‘power’.

    You can impute a power dynamic to any interaction. But it’s silly to claim that every conflict is about power. It’s just not helpful.

  • K(yle)

    Alpha and beta as far as I have seen it on this blog is shorthand for attractive and unattractive.

    That’s how it is used shorthand, but betas aren’t really supposed to unattractive so much as not as viscerally attractive as the alpha. A lot of the alpha-beta observations are also going to be based on social hierarchy as well.

    In reality most Alphas are going to positively contribute to society because that is what society demands of them (which is also true of the beta.) The alpha is generally going to be more recalcitrant and resistant to pernicious socialization. So in our more socially lax society betas are well socialized (with a set of cultural trappings that are largely defunct), and alphas are not.

    Any girl who wouldn’t be freaked out by attention from older men at that age is seriously disturbed.

    I think this is probably more common than you think. I’ve known many women that confessed to having sexual experiences with men considerably older than them, when they were very young. Plenty of young girls get crushes on their late-20s and older male teachers.

    There are plenty of young girls that are the Justin Beiber fan-types that want nice, non-threatening young boys, and this is probably the most common expression of barely post-pubescent sexuality but there is certainly an ‘early bloomer’ type that fetishize older men at a very young age and they aren’t that rare.

    I had an older male friend/neighbor when I was in my early 20s that had a daughter in her early teens that would basically hit on me and the other guys from the neighborhood. She eventually lost her virginity at 15 to a guy that was probably in his early to mid 20s, after years of casting about for an older man.

    I never got the vibe that there was any history of sexual abuse. Her relationship with her father seemed very comfortable, and he was relatively lax, her parents were still married and lived together. I would describe her mother as very emotionally and intellectually immature though, and I feel like it seemed normal for her as a very young adult to be paired up with a much more mature man based on the power/social dynamics in her parents relationship.

    I’ve seen other examples of this as well though, where a girl in middle school told me at a friend’s wedding reception that she hadn’t dated a guy that was a teenager in ‘years’. Truth be told my friend confirmed that she was dating college freshmen a little over a year ago. Her ex-boyfriend was currently in jail for some assault charge he told me and was in his early 20s. I actually approached this girl though, unlike my friend’s daughter who I would call underdeveloped for her age. The wedding girl was 15 at the time iirc, but could have passed for her early 20s. So I don’t even think there is necessarily a physiological component to this ‘early bloomer’ phenomena based on two disparate cases of experiencing it first hand.

    Like most grown men my age I have limited exposure to young teenage girls, especially one on one as I did with these two above examples, although I’m sure any attractive male high school teacher has some stories to tell.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan:

    The only problem is it can then look like an echo chamber. This happened on the Hugo Schwyzer blog last week.

    You mean the Good Men Project? Hugo Schwyzer’s blog doesn’t have voting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      You mean the Good Men Project? Hugo Schwyzer’s blog doesn’t have voting.

      Yes, I must mean that. I read them back to back during the cuckolding kerfuffle.

  • tito

    @Susan

    so then why are they “beta?”

  • Abbot

    But none of this research reduces rape intent to the desire to express ‘power’.

    .
    Non-consensual sex is NOT about power. Claiming that it is gives feminists power. Ooooh, the feminists are going to attack now.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    tito,

    so then why are they “beta?”

    Because they have no self worth, no backbone, are followers, and have the “beta behaviors traits”

    The reason they produce most of the work is they are told they are as good as their contribution to the system, so they are slaves to the system, are trying to compensate for the slot of earth they occupy by being “good”, plus, have to canalize the frustrated sexual energy somewhere.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    I don’t define alpha as someone who contributes to the maintenance of civilization. Betas are actually doing much of that work.

    Alphas fill the history books because they often catalyzed revolutions and led movements. The mass of men doing the work, they were betas. Civilization was built upon and is support by the backs of betas.

    What happens when betas are disenfranchised the way they have been in the West?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kane
      Furthermore, the modern day equivalent of a revolution is founding Google or Facebook. Betas are the innovators, at least in a first-world country. This will become more pronounced as technology continues to change at warp speed.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Yes, there is a plugin that allows people to vote comments up or down, then hides the ones that get voted down. The only problem is it can then look like an echo chamber. This happened on the Hugo Schwyzer blog last week. You can “unhide” the comments, but it takes a click for every one. For now, I plan to leave it as is.

    Makes sense and is your blog after all. ;)

  • Butterfly Flower

    I actually approached this girl though, unlike my friend’s daughter who I would call underdeveloped for her age. The wedding girl was 15 at the time iirc, but could have passed for her early 20s.

    I look very young for my age; I’m usually mistaken for being 14 or 15.

    …I’ve been hit on by creepy men who apparently are into that. I believe the term to describe them is Ephebophiles.

    These types of men are usually attractive Alphas – & that’s what makes them so creepy. Why are they trying to pick up High School girls? Can’t they just go score a hot 20-something woman?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Butterfly,

    Why are they trying to pick up High School girls?

    Because they are hot, duh.

    A lot of 15-17 years old girls like older (20-30) dudes. Same instinct.

  • Leesa M.

    Jack, I was just upscrolling through the previous comments and found this from Aldonza;

    “Actually, criminologists have discovered several distinct types of rapists. Power is a part of all of them, but to a much greater or lessor degree, depending on the type of rapist.

    http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/CrimPsych/CPSG-5.htm

    Teenage girls liking older guys in their 20s is very different from a married man with children in his 30s or 40s grabbing a 14 year old girl, as in Susan’s comment that sparked this conversation. Even if 14 year old Susan might have found this man “cute” that doesn’t mean she would not feel threatened and grossed out by this incident.

    When I was 14 I had celebrity crushes on actors and singers in their 20s and I fantasized about them. That doesn’t mean I would have welcomed aggressive sexual attention from them had I met them or from other men their age.

    The hormones in young teenage girls cause them to become aware of sexual feelings but that doesn’t mean they want to have sex. I remember that I masterbated frequently to fantasies at that age but I was very naive and innocent with regards to sexuality between 2 actual humans. My sexuality was all in my head and my hand.

    When I was a little older – 17, I dated a 20 year old college guy but he was no more emotionally mature than I was. I probably could have related to him even at the age of 15 because college guys are not that much different from high school guys. They go to school, do homework, play video games, hang out and masterbate like crazy, just like high school guys.
    How many emotionally and psychologically mature 22 year old guys do you know these days? Not many.
    They are all vastly different from a grown married man with kids in his 30s or 40s.

    Regardless, nobody here should be trying to bacward rationalize anyone grabbing somebody, regardless of age.

    It doesn’t matter if 14 year old Susan “liked” it or not, thought he was “alpha” or not. IT WAS WRONG.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Teenage girls liking older guys in their 20s is very different from a married man with children in his 30s or 40s grabbing a 14 year old girl, as in Susan’s comment that sparked this conversation. Even if 14 year old Susan might have found this man “cute” that doesn’t mean she would not feel threatened and grossed out by this incident.

      Agreed. The man who grabbed me was acting as a predator. A 30 yo male who gets with a 14 yo girl may be guilty of very poor judgment (hello, statutory rape), but he didn’t necessarily go looking for a pubescent girl for kicks.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    I usually just lurk but had to comment on this little gem from Matt C, “The gist I got from it was that he was attractive because: he took an emotional risk, was unashamed about it and was comfortable with who he was and what he stood for. That’s damn attractive behavior. ”

    What did he “stand for”? Cheating on his wife by attempting to molest a minor?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous Lurker

      I usually just lurk but had to comment on this little gem from Matt C, “The gist I got from it was that he was attractive because: he took an emotional risk, was unashamed about it and was comfortable with who he was and what he stood for. That’s damn attractive behavior. ”

      What did he “stand for”? Cheating on his wife by attempting to molest a minor?

      Well said. A 40 yo man lunged at a 14 yo babysitter in the car.
      1. There is nothing attractive about that. In fact, it’s ugly behavior.
      2. He did not risk much, and certainly not emotion.
      3. He should have been ashamed of his behavior.
      4. He was comfortable with who he was and what he stood for? Like a psychopath?

      Matt C, you’re out of your mind, or you’re trolling.

  • Hope

    Hi Susan, it’s been a while since I posted. Just wanted to de-lurk and mention this article:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/24/norway-massacre-anders-breivik-s-deadly-attack-fueled-by-hatred-of-women.html

    Now, you know I’m no fan of feminism. But what do you make of this guy? Apparently he shot the “prettiest” girls first, and made this apparently obvious and cheered as he did. Mentioned here:

    http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/07/24/survivors-of-the-norway-atrocity-their-stories-102039-23292399/

    There are some parallels to be drawn here with the previous shootings targeting young people, wherein the lonely guys who were unsuccessful with women took it out in violent ways.

    What do you make of this?

  • Anonymous Lurker

    “Non-consensual sex is NOT about power.”

    Some men on this blog are claiming that even consensual sex is about power and dominance.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Matt C, “The gist I got from it was that he was attractive because: he took an emotional risk, was unashamed about it and was comfortable with who he was and what he stood for.”

    What exactly did this man stand for?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    On rape and power: I find this easier to analyze if we tone down the intensity and consider something like a mugger, or a kid in school who steals lunch money. Some do it because they get off on the power of picking on someone – they are bullies. Others do it because they want the wallet/kid’s lunch money, and they really don’t care about the victim’s humanity or even really see them as a person on the same level as themselves.

    When you scale up the degree of sadism and sociopathy by an order of magnitude you have the mindset of someone who could commit a forcible rape. I believe that to be a very small number of people in a well-adjusted society (the rules obviously change in extraordinary times like war, where violence against people is suborned writ large).

    So there is no single dogmatic answer on what (forcible) rape is “about.”

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Badger, see the link Aldonza posted. All rapes therein were about power in one form or another. Its a matter of degree. Why don’t you want to accept this? How does it benefit you to believe that rape is not about power? You are not a rapist so why does it bother you that rapes are about power and not about whatever you think or want them to be about?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Lurker,

    Why don’t you want to accept this? How does it benefit you to believe that rape is not about power? You are not a rapist so why does it bother you that rapes are about power and not about whatever you think or want them to be about?

    I said earlier and like 300 times already, but here it goes

    Rape is sex by force. So “force = power” is an element.

    However arguing that rape is ONLY about power, ignores the SEX part of it. How much is the motivation sex, and how much power? leave that to the criminologists.

    By framing rape as a power issue only, and leaving the sex component apart, feminism is able to link rape to ANY form of power, as in POWER = RAPE. And this is useful to fully portrait patriarchy = a system of rape, repression = rape, control = rape, etc, but at the same time, the real crime, the sexual rape, becomes meaningless.

    Is in this sea of blurred definitions where everyone is a rapist, even when you havent committed the crime.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Sorry Aldonza, looks like nobody here actually clicked on your link.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Sorry Aldonza, looks like nobody here actually clicked on your link.

    I did

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    After reading that link, how could any rape victim not be sure if she was raped or not?

    I wish the definition of “rape” were constrained to these criminal profiles.

  • Jack

    Badger, see the link Aldonza posted

    The outline that Aldonza linked to describes pathological rapists using power v anger axes. This is the basic typology that I was referring to in my earlier post, though it’s been abbreviated. But this isn’t the only typology describing rapists and isn’t intended to describe all incidents of rape. So it’s not comprehensive. The references at the bottom of that page clarify the application.

    How does it benefit you to believe that rape is not about power?

    How does it benefit you to believe that it is?

    What does this accomplish, and why is it useful?

    The purpose of analyzing and classifying rapists is to identify their motivations and psychology for the purpose of preventing rapes, catching rapists, and assisting in their reform. Insisting that all rape must be regarded as ‘about power’ doesn’t accomplish any of these things.

    Also even if you believe that rape is always about power, the Feminist meaning of this term is very different from ‘power’ as a psychological motivation in the context of this research.

    If you’re really interested in this question, look up a criminologist doing research in this area and ask them. They can explain to you what the application of these profiles are, where they come from, and how they’re different from what Feminists are promoting.

  • brightstormyday

    After reading an anonymous user’s critique of Butterfly Flower’s choice to limit her intimate experiences to making out as “being a cocktease,” then reading Matt C’s comment on “putting sex on the table,” then withdrawing it and it making him angry, I’d like to share my own stories.

    When I went to college I heard from girls that guys don’t want relationships, guys don’t want to take girls out on dates, etc. etc.

    This isn’t true. In one weekend I got invited to multiple formals. In one semester I got asked out on multiple dates. It’s easy to get a guy to ask you to be his gf, just be nice, talk less than he does, remember details of things he says (it shows you’re a good listener), and don’t fuck him. In some cases, you can still get away with doing the last thing and having him ask you to be his gf if you meet the requirements of being warm and sweet (I’ve seen it) but it’s a risk.

    What I’m getting at is that on some level, I thought the guys who asked me out on dates were the ones who were more old fashioned, sweeter, etc. I didn’t accept every single one (I’m not going to lead people on), but if I thought he seemed nice and I wanted to get to know him better I would accept. I think in only one instance I could think of did I meet someone more “old fashioned” that way. In every other instance, I put myself in potentially dangerous situations.

    I was always taught that a gentleman picks you up at x time, is on time, and then drops you off at home at a reasonable hour. I honestly think that guys today use the fact that they have cars to just…be controlling. There were two times where I wanted to go home, and the guy would start driving to his place, not mine. After I’d finally convince him to drive to my place, he would get angry if I didn’t let him in my room. “I just want to cuddle!” Of course you do.

    In another instance, a guy took me out to a formal. Afterward we were going to go to a party, but I needed my ID. I told him to wait in the lounge of my dorm while I’d grab my ID. It wouldn’t take more than a minute.
    My friends could hear him complain about how I wouldn’t let him in my room. In fact, he did so the whole night. “I take this girl to a formal and she won’t let me in her room!” I ditched him at the party and went home with three other friends. The next day, he asked one of my friends over and over what he had done wrong. My friend (a guy) told him to stop being such a creep. This guy is known for preparing elaborate meals for girls, then shouting at them and passive aggressively insulting them when they won’t go in his room or vice versa.

    No one likes a sore reject. No one likes someone who’s clearly demanding to get into your pants HERE AND NOW; patience is a virtue. I had one potential romantic interest shout at me,”Why are you such a fucking prude?” one time. I stared at him in shock. The next day I told him things couldn’t work out between us and it would be better if we stopped talking because we clearly had different romantic priorities. He then got angry and accused me of calling him a rapist (I wasn’t, and more importantly, he wasn’t). It was such a strange and confusing scenario.

    I don’t understand why men get so angry over not getting sex. Then again, I don’t understand girls who cry and eat ice cream over getting dumped. Human interactions are human interactions. Some will be fruitful, some will suck. These guys that are “creepy,” can hypothetically be alpha like the last guy I mentioned, or beta like the guy I mentioned from the formal. Heck, even roosh is like them. He creeped a girl out and learned nothing from it. They try so flipping hard. Even if they pretend not to. And they get angry if it doesn’t work. They get angry over rejection the way a normal man would get angry over losing his job or messing up the prototype for his new invention. They just suck.

    There are a few guys out there. A few guys who aren’t trying to do everything they can to please women (and get angry about it when they fail) and who aren’t intentionally being assholes to gain female approval (and get angry about it when they fail). These men are gold. They often have female posses that they ljbf. They are often picky about relationships. I tend to notice that they are religious on some level (at my friend’s church these two guys introduce themselves as Sexy and Danger). They might be alpha nerds (See: Ed Norton). They could easily have a notch count of 200…but don’t, either for religious reasons, or some sort of personal moral reasons (ie one male friend who only has sex in relationships). Regardless, they are turning into some weird exotic bird. :'( Ladies, if you see one, try to bag him. It might be the last one you see for years.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    “How does it benefit you to believe that it is?”

    It doesn’t. Its what all the studies say. I couldn’t care less what its “about”. Its a crime no matter what.

    Who’s knocking making out but not going all the way here? The build-up over time is what’s sexy, first a kiss, then a french kiss, then a clothed makeout session, then a dry humping session. Then… and on and on.

    Who says its gotta be all or nothing?!

    That being said my sister was continuously frustrated when she was dating this pro-abstinence guy in college. At one point he kissed her entire naked body in a makeout session but wouldn’t kiss her vag or have intercouse with her.

    Ironically he’s the only guy from college that she still talks about with a gleam in her eye. I guess the frustration was part of the appeal. I dunno?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Lurker,

    It doesn’t. Its what all the studies say.

    What is what the studies say? that rape has a power component, or that rape is all about power and nothing else? clarify.

  • Esau

    brightstormyday: “I don’t understand why men get so angry over not getting sex.”

    Yes, I certainly believe that you don’t. In fact, it’s kind of a touchstone that runs through, and helps explain, all of your writing here. I applaud your courage in honestly owning up to your own blind spots.

  • Matt C

    Well said. A 40 yo man lunged at a 14 yo babysitter in the car.
    1. There is nothing attractive about that. In fact, it’s ugly behavior.
    2. He did not risk much, and certainly not emotion.
    3. He should have been ashamed of his behavior.
    4. He was comfortable with who he was and what he stood for? Like a psychopath?

    Matt C, you’re out of your mind, or you’re trolling.

    Sorry, I thought you said he was alpha or something.

    My mind is so focused on alpha’s are attractive, alpha’s get laid, alpha’s get whatever they want that I lost perspective.

    I’m sorry Susan. Sometimes this game stuff has such a tunnel vision aspect to it that you forget about the moral aspects of things from time to time (I think I’ll keep that in mind. Don’t want to get in trouble for trying to be “cool” or “alpha”.).

    Also, what I wrote was essentially a script I had in my head. X guy is alpha. Alphas are X, Y and Z. I wasn’t thinking about what I said. I was just reiterating something I read elsewhere.

  • Butterfly Flower

    There are a few guys out there. A few guys who aren’t trying to do everything they can to please women (and get angry about it when they fail) and who aren’t intentionally being assholes to gain female approval (and get angry about it when they fail). These men are gold. They often have female posses that they ljbf. They are often picky about relationships. I tend to notice that they are religious on some level (at my friend’s church these two guys introduce themselves as Sexy and Danger). They might be alpha nerds (See: Ed Norton). They could easily have a notch count of 200…but don’t, either for religious reasons, or some sort of personal moral reasons (ie one male friend who only has sex in relationships). Regardless, they are turning into some weird exotic bird. :’( Ladies, if you see one, try to bag him. It might be the last one you see for years.

    My boyfriend is one of these “exotic bird” guys. He’s a handsome abstinent Christian Alpha.

    Honestly, I feel like over 90% of the men on the blogosphere who complain about how awful women are don’t actually deserve good girls. Why should I date a man that gets angry at me for refusing to put out? I deserve better.

    I think relationship wise, things even out. So good girls end up with good guys; not-so-nice girls end up with not-so-nice guys.

  • a different lurker

    They get angry over rejection the way a normal man would get angry over losing his job or messing up the prototype for his new invention. They just suck.

    Only a gold digger would think that a man should be less angry at being sexually and personally devalued by the object of his desire than losing a job.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    “I wasn’t thinking about what I said. I was just reiterating something I read elsewhere.”

    A common problem on the mens’ blogs I’ve seen.

  • brightstormyday

    @Esau:

    Maybe it’s because I’ve managed to spend my life around people and being surrounded by people that don’t base their self worth on seeking hedonistic and shallow goals. Maybe it’s also because I tend to hold men and women alike (and myself especially) to a slightly higher standard. Maybe it’s because…humans are evolved beings and therefore should be capable of more. I don’t understand the anger of some of these individuals over sex because I am exposed day to day to some of the glorious exceptions to the rule. The men that every man should aspire to be but never will by virtue of being too blind to recognize it. The men that every girl wants but will settle for a one night stand from an alpha or maybe a lackluster marriage from a loser to satisfy her instincts because there aren’t enough of them to go around. Ancalgon has talked about men like these. These were the men women were pushed to marry in the day. These are hard to obtain.

    Nestorius also covers the topic of needing sex at his blog. I think you should look into it. http://oldsystemwillfall.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/seduction-game-loopholes-%E2%80%93-4-being-a-real-man-is-not-a-pre-condition-to-sex/

  • Anonymous Lurker

    “This guy is known for preparing elaborate meals for girls, then shouting at them and passive aggressively insulting them when they won’t go in his room or vice versa.”

    What the hell?! LOL!

  • brightstormyday

    @Susan:

    I’ve been meaning to apologize to you. I’ve been thoroughly enjoying your blog recently. I realize that you do try to help both sides. You talk about the consequences of male and female behavior. The people who aren’t happy with you aren’t happy because you’re not going to sacrifice your values you try to swing one way completely, to the feminist side or the MRA side. I think I perceived your personality incorrectly the first time and judged you wrongly. I appreciate that you’ve let me comment on your blog now without calling me out about it. Thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @brightstormyday
      Apology accepted, you’re very welcome here.

  • Esau

    brightstormyday:

    Maybe it’s because I’ve managed to spend my life around people and being surrounded by people that don’t base their self worth on seeking hedonistic and shallow goals. Maybe it’s also because I tend to hold men and women alike (and myself especially) to a slightly higher standard. Maybe it’s because…humans are evolved beings and therefore should be capable of more. I don’t understand the anger of some of these individuals over sex because I am exposed day to day to some of the glorious exceptions to the rule.

    Or, maybe it’s because … you’re a vain, arrogant, and self-aggrandizing blowhard. Come to think of it, that would explain a great deal of your writing, too.

  • brightstormyday

    @Anonymous Lurker:

    Everyone hates him. Seriously. Everyone. I don’t know anyone that likes him. My male friend saw him again, and said,”Hey, Stormy and I hung out alll day yesterday” to see his response, for fun. He said it was actually kind of scary.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    I don’t get the anger over sex either. My god, that is why masterbation was discovered and we’ve raised it to an art form! The longing, the ache? Sure. But anger? Seriously, make friends with your hand or a dildo. They even make fake vaginas now too!

  • brightstormyday

    Essau confessed

    Or, maybe it’s because … you’re brilliant, insightful, and I secretly love you. Come to think of it, that would explain a great deal of your writing, too.

    Thanks!

  • brightstormyday

    @Anonymous Lurker:

    That reminds me of a passage in “Mere Christianity” where C.S. Lewis compares a strip tease, an act where a woman slowly removes her clothing, to a show where someone were to slowly reveal food on a plate. You could argue that the people from that civilization were starving. On the other hand, you could argue that they were gluttons, with no impulse control.

    BAM. Television today. Multiple food channels, along with commercials for chain restaurants with closeups of food (disgusting). Look at how many obese and overweight people America has. You really think that many people are starving to death?

    Same goes for sex. Sex is everywhere, even subconsciously. T.v. media. books. Half naked popstars shaking it on stage. Models. Advertisements for stupid things like shampoos, or more sexual things like viagra. With the partnercount people are getting, you think anyone is having a sexual shortage?

    Some of the men who write these pickup blogs trying to get chicks aren’t virgins. I distinctly remember one saying he had a partner count in the double digits, which he had mostly accumulated while he was married. And he was trying to learn game to get more. It’s greed in terms of sins to the flesh. I’m no better, I suffer from sin in different forms, and I was taught all sin is sin in God’s eyes. Thinking you hate someone is as bad as killing someone. It’s all the same. But I just see decadence everywhere. Yes, USA’s crime rate is dropping. Yes, things are getting better in many ways. But…I don’t know. There’s a lot of greed. A lot of hedonism. A lot of…selfishness. A lot of pride.

  • brightstormyday

    I just find it ridiculous that humans evolved a prefrontal cortex only to create an organized society that would give them more food, more sex, and more instant gratification. Shouldn’t there be a point where humans spend their efforts elsewhere, on something greater than what there is here?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “In one weekend I got invited to multiple formals. ”

    I had forgotten about college formals. Those things were unreal – tons of people having a good time, usually people not shitfaced silly like frat parties, and best of all girls dolled up in gowns in the best shape of their lives. God it was hot.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ““I wasn’t thinking about what I said. I was just reiterating something I read elsewhere.”

    A common problem on the mens’ blogs I’ve seen.”

    Yeah, because women’s blogs never contain any groupthink.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I will say the anger some males have is the frustration of seeing everyone doing it, seen girls with assholes, cheaters and all sorts of males that are not “nice” and they always getting the crumbs of yes I will spent time with you, don’t touch me. Of course I don’t mean that this are the same ladies but the problem with the acceptance of sluts is that good girls are mixed with sluts and then men think all of them are playing a game of ‘I accept gifts from you but I have sex with the guys that are not nice to me”. Is of course any girls right to have sex with as many men possible but having a double standard where the other guys that treat them right are treated as commodities, gets old…fast.
    If it makes you (all of you) feel better this are the same women that at 35 + are angry for lack of getting commitment or dates so in a way there is a sense of justice in the universe.

    I just find it ridiculous that humans evolved a prefrontal cortex only to create an organized society that would give them more food, more sex, and more instant gratification. Shouldn’t there be a point where humans spend their efforts elsewhere, on something greater than what there is here?

    I totally agree with this sentence. But no one wants to do the sacrifices to achieve something bigger also (and this is a personal observation) a secular society doesn’t have anything higher to aspire to. “We are nothing but mammals so let’s do it, like they do it at the discovery channel”, like the song say.
    The pursuit of happiness, has replaced the pursuit of greatness, YMMV.

  • Mike C

    I will say the anger some males have is the frustration of seeing everyone doing it, seen girls with assholes, cheaters and all sorts of males that are not “nice” and they always getting the crumbs of yes I will spent time with you, don’t touch me.
    .
    FWIW, Steph, you continually amaze me that you exactly “get” it while others seem to stumble around. I think they don’t want to get it.
    .
    Here would be a good analogy to the way some guys feel and why they are angry. It would be like being on the street barely enough to eat in tattered clothes, why the wealthy drive up and down the street in their limos drinking champagne waving to you. You’d get pretty pissed off.
    .
    That said, just like I just said women aren’t owed good husbands and fathers, men are not owed sex from women. And I’m really just covering old ground here, but again it isn’t the lack of sex that guys get really angry about, it is the lies they get fed on how to be attractive to women as potential sexual partners. Shit, look at Jesus, 2 partners at 28 and he has already doubled it. He spent 10-15 years operating from totally false premises fed to him by others.

  • Mike C

    I will say the anger some males have is the frustration of seeing everyone doing it, seen girls with assholes, cheaters and all sorts of males that are not “nice” and they always getting the crumbs of yes I will spent time with you, don’t touch me.
    .
    Just to throw a monkey wrench, even these assholes, cheaters, and not nice guys are complicated people with good sides. Long story short, my player co-worker is good with cars, and I had some car problems that would have had me stuck at work. He drove me to pick up parts, and came back and did the work in the company parking lot after hours. I took him out for lunch, and as we were leaving and older woman was coming in the door and he raced ahead of me to open and hold the door for her. Alot of those alpha assholes have good sides to them, but what it is is that they have zero respect for women who give up their sexuality like it is Halloween ca to every trick or treater who knocks on the door.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Badger

    I had forgotten about college formals. Those things were unreal – tons of people having a good time, usually people not shitfaced silly like frat parties, and best of all girls dolled up in gowns in the best shape of their lives. God it was hot.

    Really? Things must be different up in Badgerland (which I hear can be quite the party spot).

    At my school, formals usually ended up being the biggest shitshows of them all. Pregaming, downing flasks on the bus rides, and then going crazy wherever the formal was held. One sorority just got disciplined big time (I think suspended for at least a year) for basically destroying the place holding the event.

    Agreed on the girls looking awesome though.

  • brightstormyday

    @Badger:

    When I went to my first formal, it was literally like it’s in the movies! It was ridiculous. I kept saying that over and over too, so embarrassing.

    It is true while there was some drinking, it was very contained. There was only one really drunk guy and I feel like he was exaggerating a bit to be the clown.

    But I seriously love formals. Girls love any excuse to dress up.

    @Stephenie:

    I understand that on some level, but I just don’t think it excuses that behavior. I don’t. I know that with today’s culture, men expect to be having sex all the time, because there are women who are slutty and put out. But with that attitude, intimacy of any sort just won’t happen. It won’t. And any man who’s going to look at every girl and see her as some slut and then project that bullshit onto me is not someone I’m going to waste my time with.

    I remember one time seeing a group of men in the sphere talking about letting men down nicely. But it’s really hard to let a man down nicely if he keeps insisting. I’ve tried being nice before and a lot of men perceive a soft voice, a slight smile (out of how awkward the situation was) as possibly being unsure and possibly being open to being convinced. It’s not. I’m just trying to be nice. But being nice sometimes doesn’t work if someone keeps insisting. I’ve repeated the same thing over and over like a broken record to a guy until he got it once. “No I don’t want to go back to your place.” “We’ll just snuggle.” “No, I’m tired from studying, I just want to sleep.” “You can sleep in my bed.” “No, honestly, I want to sleep in my own bed.” “I can cuddle with you.” “There’s only room for one person.” etc. etc. And then they get angry and call you a bitch. But if they listened any of the other twenty times they’d get it. If they noticed that you’re no longer looking them in the eye and are walking faster and further away from them, they’d get it. But they don’t.

    In addition, a lot of men just get angry at girls, period. I had male friends that went berserk when I got a boyfriend. I was stupid enough to get into a fb relationship. The first question you get from every male friend is,”You’re in a relationship?” Like it’s a confusing topic. I had one insult me via text over it. Those men who get angry at girls for choosing the guys that they think are “losers” (I had a stupid rich snob tell me I don’t date alphas, and there must be something wrong with me) are equivalent to the fat women who hate women that men are attracted to. “WHAT? THAT GUY YOU’RE DATING IS A LOSER! I’M A FOOTBALL PLAYER WITH 20 STD’s AND I’M SLEEPING WITH YOUR ROOMIE! I’M THE BETTER OPTION!” Almost all the guys who got angry at me having a boyfriend were the ones who also got angry because I didn’t get physically intimate with them. But seriously, I’m looking for something. It’s called a relationship with someone who’s decent. And if I get in a relationship, it’s goign to be realistically with someone I can see marrying. I’m not going to compromise that for “wun nite of funnn” because, from the girls I know who do that, it isn’t that fun.

    But seriously, I think a side effect getting in a relationship with someone can be finding out who your real friends are. Both genders, but men especially. If a guy doesn’t give a shit and goes about his life as usual, cool. If a guy gets mad at you, not cool, he’s not your friend. And if you end your relationship (and are naive enough to show this on facebook), then you can tell who’s not really your friend by the sudden likes you get on your new single status, plus the flurry of phone calls and text messages that suddenly come out of nowhere with,”Hey, how have you been, let’s do something friday!”

  • brightstormyday

    @Mike C:

    Some players make decent friends for girls. I have one male player friend who’s really been there for me in times where none of my other friends would be. I don’t know what he saw in me or anything. But I really appreciate the friendship.

  • brightstormyday

    Also I love you Stephenie.

    hearts. hearts. hearts.

  • Mike C

    I had male friends that went berserk when I got a boyfriend.

    That’s because they weren’t really your friends. Sounds like you had beta orbiters.
    .
    Almost all the guys who got angry at me having a boyfriend were the ones who also got angry because I didn’t get physically intimate with them.

    Because they felt they had invested time, energy, and emotional effort with no payoff. Mind you, I am NOT saying that view is right, just telling you what it probably was. Yohami had an absolutely brilliant post on some thread that I am too lazy to hunt down, but the point is this what guys were taught. Be nice to the girl, befriend her, get to know her, and the sex comes later. That is completely, utterly wrong, but many guys do that, no sex ever happens, and then all of a sudden they see you screwing the guy you met 2 weeks ago, and they are like WTF. I don’t know if it was you or someone else, but one of the recurring themes in some of the comments is almost this disapproval that guys seek sex. Hello, we want sex. We want to fuck girls we find attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. And that gets back to this idea of demonizing male sexuality. But the problem is most guys go about it the wrong way. The try to backdoor their way into sex thinking the friends first is the model, and finally when they try something you are like “hey, hold on, wtf, I don’t think of you that way’ and then they see you with guy X, and they think why did I waste all that time.
    .
    I’d say one of the cardinal principles in adapting from a beta to more like an alpha is to be honest with women about your sexual desires in a way that isn’t hostile. If a guy sees a woman he wants to fuck, she should know in the interaction pretty quick that is the intended direction of the relationship, not to be buddies.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Stephanie, “a secular society doesn’t have anything higher to aspire to. “We are nothing but mammals so let’s do it, like they do it at the discovery channel”, like the song say.
    The pursuit of happiness, has replaced the pursuit of greatness,”

    So many secularists have been great scientists, artists, musicians, thinkers, writers, etc. One doesn’t need to be religious or even believe in God to aspire to a greatness beyond just their own immediate self gratification and happiness.

    Example: Einstein.

    Mike C, “even these assholes, cheaters, and not nice guys are complicated people with good sides.”

    Yes and even bitches, sluts and not nice girls are complicated people with good sides too. Nobody is one dimensional.

    Mike C 2, “Alot of those alpha assholes have good sides to them, but what it is is that they have zero respect for women who give up their sexuality like it is Halloween ca to every trick or treater who knocks on the door.”

    That’s because they see their own reflection these womens actions and are self-haters.

    Mike C 3, ” Hello, we want sex. We want to fuck girls we find attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. And that gets back to this idea of demonizing male sexuality.”

    Hello WE also want sex. We want to fuck guys we find attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. And that gets back to this idea of demonizing female sexuality.

    See how easy it is to empathize with each other?

    And I agree with you wholeheartedly about communicating your intentions early on.

    There are 3 categories of opposite sex people: 1. friends 2. lovers and 3. the friend/lover combo, or the relationship person.

    Its best to get these sorted out from the get-go.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I understand that on some level, but I just don’t think it excuses that behavior. I don’t. I know that with today’s culture, men expect to be having sex all the time, because there are women who are slutty and put out. But with that attitude, intimacy of any sort just won’t happen. It won’t. And any man who’s going to look at every girl and see her as some slut and then project that bullshit onto me is not someone I’m going to waste my time with.

    I agree.

    I’m sick of people here assuming these poor rejected college boys are infallible and the young women that turn them down are wrong or behaving selfishly. That’s just not the case. I’ve had so many self-professed “nice guys” act like complete jerks to me, casually proposition sex, text me photos of their junk…

    I barely trust young men these days. My current boyfriend is my first boyfriend.

    “WHAT? THAT GUY YOU’RE DATING IS A LOSER! I’M A FOOTBALL PLAYER WITH 20 STD’s AND I’M SLEEPING WITH YOUR ROOMIE! I’M THE BETTER OPTION!” Almost all the guys who got angry at me having a boyfriend were the ones who also got angry because I didn’t get physically intimate with them.

    I’ve noticed this too! Manwhores get really pissed when you turn them down. How dare I refuse their propositions. How dare I date a decent young man.

    I’m bisexual so I don’t really have to deal with manwhores wrath that much. Apparently a lot guys interpret it as “she’s mostly a lesbian”. A player guyfriend once said “it’s a shame you’re not into guys, or else we would have hooked up by now…” I never corrected him. I was kind and protected his ego ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Butterfly Flower

      I’ve had so many self-professed “nice guys” act like complete jerks to me, casually proposition sex, text me photos of their junk…

      I hope it was obvious to you that they were not nice guys. Players always use that line – and also have their friends reassure you what “good guys” they are.

      I’m bisexual so I don’t really have to deal with manwhores wrath that much.

      Your sexual identity has nothing to do with your willingness to deal with manwhores. Many straight women don’t have to deal with them either. They avoid them.
      Also, you can avoid manwhores, but you’ll still have to avoid bi sluts. We’re all in the same boat with sluts.

  • Mike C

    That’s because they see their own reflection these womens actions and are self-haters.
    .
    Nope. I’d correct you but you wouldn’t believe me anyways.
    .
    Hello WE also want sex. We want to fuck guys we find attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. And that gets back to this idea of demonizing female sexuality.
    .
    I’ve got no issue with any of that.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Mike C, if the easy he-hos were really disgusted with the easy she-hos then they wouldn’t reward them with sexual attention. Instead they’d be rewarding trademarked “nice girls” with sexual attention and relationship loyalty.

    The he-hos and the she-hos were made for, and deserve, each other. They are natural equals and natural partners.

    May they be fruitful and multiply!

  • anonymous

    @ Mike C
    There is nothing wrong with that. And that gets back to this idea of demonizing male sexuality.

    In the case of the beta orbiter who’s friendzoned, the girl isn’t demonizing male sexuality. The guy pretended to be her friend and didn’t display obvious sexual interest in her from the beginning, so she feels betrayed when he finally does.
    Of course, the problem stems from her lack of understanding male sexuality to begin with. But, if she welcomes other men approaching her with sexual interest but rejects it from her male “friends”, how is she demonizing male sexuality?
    She isn’t.

  • Mike C

    Mike C, if the easy he-hos were really disgusted with the easy she-hos then they wouldn’t reward them with sexual attention.
    .
    Wow, you really are naive. Here is your homework assignment. Go to the chalk board and write out 200 times, “men are not women”. Maybe you’ll get it. You are new around here. You can believe you know it all or you can listen to guys who know how guys think. Pull up a chair, and listen.
    .
    Guys don’t “reward girls with sexual attention”. That is girl think. “She-hos” don”t disgust guys if they are hot, any normal guy finds a hot “she-ho” very attractive. They just don’t respect them. Disgust /= lack of respect. Players don’t “reward she-hos with sexual attention”. They dump loads in a cum-bucket. Mind you, I’m not moralizing here…I’m telling you the typical male mentality. The fact that for one second you think males “reward with sexual attention” tells me just how fundamentally you misunderstand male-female sexual dynamics.
    .
    The he-hos and the she-hos were made for, and deserve, each other. They are natural equals and natural partners.
    .
    I actually agree with this.

  • Guestopher

    brightstormyday said: “They get angry over rejection the way a normal man would get angry over losing his job or messing up the prototype for his new invention.”

    What normal guy is worried about messing up a prototype for an invention?! WTF?! I agree though. It would have been much better if these guys hadn’t invested so much time and money into getting laid by a particular girl (especially one who thinks that normal guys are funded inventors). They shouldn’t have given you so much attention and should have been dividing their time among women who would actually sleep with them.

    @Matt C,

    You are 19. Don’t you dare worry about being moral for at least another 6 years, even if you’d like to marry before your 30th birthday for some reason. You’ve got a nice pass in that people expect you to be a selfish jerk for at least that long. Also,appearing moral so that you can influence other people is a separate issue…

  • Anonymous Lurker

    WTF – Mike C is only 19?!?! Now I understand….. I was going to respond to his last comment but now…. nah.

  • Mike C

    In the case of the beta orbiter who’s friendzoned, the girl isn’t demonizing male sexuality. The guy pretended to be her friend and didn’t display obvious sexual interest in her from the beginning, so she feels betrayed when he finally does.
    .
    OK, I understand what you are saying here. Now stop for one second and listen to me, because this is critical and I’ve heard what you are saying enough times to know this is a common female misconception (even Steph had trouble with this in another thread way back I recall). The guy didn’t “pretend” to be her friend. On some level the friendship was in fact genuine. Again, most guys especially in my generation and it probably afflicts Gen Y just as much were taught you become friends first, then turn the relationship sexual/romantic. There is no Machiavellian manipulation going on to get your panties off. In many cases, the guy isn’t displaying sexual interest off the bat because of some combination of not knowing how to flirt, being too timid, etc. The guy needs to get past those issues and do it the right way, but there isn’t some intent to “betray” just because finally down the road he is comfortable enough and feels invested enough to make some kind of move.

  • Mike C

    WTF – Mike C is only 19?!?! Now I understand….. I was going to respond to his last comment but now…. nah.
    .
    I’m 37, and honestly you just failed the basic IQ, reading comprehension test. It is Matt C the other commenter referred to. Matt, Mike, Matt, Mike, Matt, Mike….see they are spelled differently.
    .
    FWIW, how old are you. You sound like you actually have very limited real world experience. I’ve been around more then a few blocks, and I’ve been friends with more then a few players. I’m not theorizing, but telling it from years of real world experience.

  • Mike C

    My mind is so focused on alpha’s are attractive, alpha’s get laid, alpha’s get whatever they want that I lost perspective.

    I’m sorry Susan. Sometimes this game stuff has such a tunnel vision aspect to it that you forget about the moral aspects of things from time to time (I think I’ll keep that in mind. Don’t want to get in trouble for trying to be “cool” or “alpha”.).

    Matt,

    Slow down, and just try to process everything and take it all in. I’m not sure what material you are taking in, but you have to be careful I think that you don’t get a distorted view that does warp any moral considerations if that is the person you want to be. I started with David DeAngelo and just listening to all his Dating with Gurus Interview CDs. It just gets you in the right frame of mind. Yohami is one brilliant dude, so you should check out his blog. Not sure how much Roissy if any you’ve taken in, but don’t take everything as gospel.

    My sense is you’ve started a journey to creating a new Matt C. Good luck, and no need to rush. You are 19. I didn’t stumble onto any of this alpha/beta/Game stuff until 31

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Matt C

      Slow down, and just try to process everything and take it all in. I’m not sure what material you are taking in, but you have to be careful I think that you don’t get a distorted view that does warp any moral considerations if that is the person you want to be.

      No worries – my best advice is to listen to Mike C and several other men here who have learned Game for years now and really can offer great guidance. I promise you, if you work at it you can have success without turning into an asshole. Asshole Game cuts straight to the chase, and that is tempting, I know. I urge you to think long-term about the man you want to be.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Thanks for speaking so highly of me

    I started with David DeAngelo and just listening to all his Dating with Gurus Interview CDs

    Me too. One harmless “guru” tip at the right of okcupid, from David DeAngelo back in 2006. I thought, cocky and funny? lol bullshit! but tried that and since it worked, got Double Your Dating, and then the interview series: brilliant. From that pack I cant stress how good is the dr Paul / MindOS one.

    DeAngelo is very PG and his method is good for what it is.

    BTW the proper question, re Susan and the “Alpha” is not if the guy was alpha but if she was attracted to him. If she wasnt attracted, theres no “alpha” that is going to change the awkwardness. But had she been attracted, there is something called rationalization that would depict the encounter as “destiny” “horny adolescent mistakes” and “found each other”.

    The story is gross, old dude grabbing the 14 yr old babysitter… but, if you dont add “alpha” but “attraction” is a different story.

    When I was 25 I gave a few poetry seminars at several highschools. All the 15+ yr old girls were hitting on me. And I wasnt alpha, nor did anything about it. A couple of them ended up fucking a friend of mine who was older than me. These stories happen.

  • Guestopher

    Notice brightstormyday’s comment at July 28, 2011 at 10:28 pm.

    “Everyone hates him. Seriously. Everyone. I don’t know anyone that likes him. My male friend saw him again, and said,”Hey, Stormy and I hung out alll day yesterday” to see his response, for fun.”

    We have a situation where
    1) There is a young man who is having social problems and doing his best to compensate by cooking elaborate meals (yes, kind of pathetic and creepy)
    2) People in his circle mock him for having little or no friends, not getting laid and trying too hard
    3) When a male friend who is part of the “in circle” makes up a lie to mock the outsider for NO REASON a female celebrates it.

    Why is it funny/noble/cool that a guy who isn’t having such a difficult time socially would go out of his way to make a guy at the bottom of the social barrel feel worse? This is how you push someone who already has problems over the edge. We get it, his behavior is weird. Why tease him? Why make it a point to rub it in his face and then laugh about the fact that you rubbed his social inadequacies in his face? You think he’s going to hurt women? Avoid him; but what’s the point in ruining his life further and spreading rumors if he hasn’t done anything but be socially inept? I’m pretty sure that finding out someone said that just to piss him off would make that guy a lot angrier than the knowledge that women are choosing other guys for companionship.

  • anonymous

    @ Mike C

    OK, I understand what you are saying here. Now stop for one second and listen to me, because this is critical and I’ve heard what you are saying enough times to know this is a common female misconception (even Steph had trouble with this in another thread way back I recall). The guy didn’t “pretend” to be her friend. On some level the friendship was in fact genuine. Again, most guys especially in my generation and it probably afflicts Gen Y just as much were taught you become friends first, then turn the relationship sexual/romantic. There is no Machiavellian manipulation going on to get your panties off. In many cases, the guy isn’t displaying sexual interest off the bat because of some combination of not knowing how to flirt, being too timid, etc. The guy needs to get past those issues and do it the right way, but there isn’t some intent to “betray” just because finally down the road he is comfortable enough and feels invested enough to make some kind of move.

    From the female perspective, I really don’t think that the thought of manipulation is really what’s at play more than the thought of betrayal. Pure friendships aren’t supposed to include sexual attraction.
    She might be thinking back about all of the personal information that she’s shared with him that she wouldn’t have if she would’ve known he was sexually interested, etc..
    Look at it this way.
    You, as a male, are friends with some guy and later you find out that what he really wanted from you was your girlfriend, or for you to hook him up at your job or something like that. Wouldn’t you feel betrayed?
    I know this isn’t a good example because the friendzoned guy IS interested in the girl for both sex AND for her to be his special female friend, but regardless of his rationale or intent, to the girl it’s deceptive because she didn’t know about the sex part just the friend part of the equation (he did, she didn’t).

    The other thing is that not all guys who go this route do so because they were advised that this is how to win a girl over. Some guys really believe that a girl’s attraction toward him will change if she’ll only get to know him. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn’t.

    There are many cases where the girl knows full well that the guy’s interested or she gives him mixed messages just to boost her ego so she takes advantage of his kindness and uses him.

    This is what happens when you disregard gender differences and you promote inter-gender friendships.
    It’s best to just be upfront with your intent and not waste each other’s time.
    There’s no argument that “become her friend first” is horrible advice!

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Brightstormy and Butterfly, speaking of guys getting angry when girls don’t go for them and/or go for other guys, that theme comes up in the Breivik case again and again

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Here would be a good analogy to the way some guys feel and why they are angry. It would be like being on the street barely enough to eat in tattered clothes, why the wealthy drive up and down the street in their limos drinking champagne waving to you. You’d get pretty pissed off.

    Thanks for the kudos. I will say that I can relate because I got the same situation when I go to MacDonald’s or any other restaurant or party and I had seen Americans serving themselves huge amounts of food just to trash half of it, I come from a country were people still starve and seeing food wasted breaks my heart. But then people born in abundance can’t see things from the poor POV, whether sex or food or any other good. Women can get sex any moment they want to so they can’t relate to the men that are invisible to them. “I mean some other woman must find them attractive right? Why the anger? keep looking for 5 or 10 years someone that is not me should do it, now piss off I’m busy complaining about no good men left or my asshole boyfriend treating me like crap” wash, rinse, repeat.

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Wait, Matt C is 19 and not Mike C, the one who wrote silly comments? OK, don’t worry Matt C, I’ll teach you all you need to know about women. ;)
    I’m not *that* much older than you, and besides, pumas and cougars are all the rage these days!
    What state are you in?

  • Stephenie Rowling

    So many secularists have been great scientists, artists, musicians, thinkers, writers, etc. One doesn’t need to be religious or even believe in God to aspire to a greatness beyond just their own immediate self gratification and happiness.

    Different things, those people became secular out of logic and rationality, so its not a surprise that they are also good decent human beings that want to improve the world (my husband is Agnostic BTW and I totally respect his POV because he reached that point from logic and he is also a wonderful decent human being…sexy as hell too ;))
    But Jane and John Smith are born into a secular world with no guidance and the highest shiniest role models they have come from their family (50% of them broken and with no fathers), school (and I have no idea if schools teach ethics in USA) and from the TV/Hollywood/Cosmo/SATC…. So they have no reason to do anything than try to emulate the weak hints of happiness they see, usually money, luxury and dating.
    Hence secularism is good when discovered after years of study, critical thinking and reflection not when you are dump into this cold world with a bunch of people that are also looking for their own happiness and have no moral compass, except whatever looks the best/cool/in. When you don’t believe in God you believe in everything else, YMMV.

    Example: Einstein.

    Did you know that Einstein cheated in his wife constantly and abandoned his first daughter in asylum and there is still controversy if she was insane before getting them or growing surrounded by insane people drove her mad.
    So try other example.
    I replaced Einstein long ago as my number 1 favorite scientist with Charles Darwin so far he was a faithful husband and devoted father and he open the eyes of the world to Evolution which pretty much explains everything in the natural world, so as long as that still true he is still number 1. Had I mentioned I hate cheating with a fire of two thousand suns? Sorry not even relativity can save you, Al.

    Alot of those alpha assholes have good sides to them

    You are preaching to the choir. You know my Alpha friends were amazing to me, but only because they weren’t sleeping with me, so yeah…

    And any man who’s going to look at every girl and see her as some slut and then project that bullshit onto me is not someone I’m going to waste my time with.

    And that is your right, but we are just trying to show you that there is a lot going on more than bitter men just because, culture has been punishing, misleading and demonizing men for the last 40 years, it was just a matter of time before this started to backfire.

    But it’s really hard to let a man down nicely if he keeps insisting.

    Well the rule is rejecting them nice once, if they don’t understand then is up to you. But don’t try to be rude the first time you reject a guy for something another guy did. Is not fair. All guys shouldn’t pay for something just one did. I also had this experiences what I do is imagine that every guy I need to reject is my little brother, every single time that helps me to not see the face of the last guy that was rude, try that and see how it works. :)

    I think a side effect getting in a relationship with someone can be finding out who your real friends are. Both genders, but men especially

    I agree. Many people show their true colors once you are dating. But again the trick is to wait till they show their true colors, every time. It helps not to get bitter and once in a while people surprise you with being happy for your love life, men and females.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I also wanted to use a quote that, funny enough was a villain’s from heroes, (for some reason villains get the best dialogue, well I usually give the best dialogues to my heroes so there :p) but it was an interesting quote that my husband and I discuss once in a while:

    “You see, I think there comes a time when a man has to ask himself whether he wants a life of happiness or a life of meaning.”

    “I’d like to have both.”

    “It can’t be done. Two very different paths. I mean, to be truly happy a man must live absolutely in the present, and with no thought of what’s gone before, and no thought of what lies ahead. But a life of meaning, a man is condemned to wallow in the past, and obsess about the future.”

    I think that is pretty good description of human choices in the SMP: happiness vs meaning, YMMV.

  • Blues

    “I don’t understand why men get so angry over not getting sex.”

    Basically it’s all about what average (beta) men see around, I.E. cads and guys looking just for sex (alphas) getting all the attention of women in general while they keep getting friendzoned. They have very little experience with women so they don’t realize how they should go from point A (a girl picking you on her radar) to point B (sex with said girl) and since all they see is point B on the cad side they feel they’re being played when they try to go for sex and it’s denied, hence the anger.

    To make this even clearer, to women this is akin to seeing a hot woman (HB9-10) getting all the attention despite being an entitled, ball busting, bitch. All women see is the bitch part while ignore the she’s hot part and rationalize that men love bitches, this leads to wondering what the hell happened when she acts ball busting and the guy doesn’t take the BS very long.

  • Blues

    I know that with today’s culture, men expect to be having sex all the time, because there are women who are slutty and put out.

    Nope, try “expect women to own up to their words of wanting decent guys” and you’re on the money.

  • Blues

    I remember one time seeing a group of men in the sphere talking about letting men down nicely. But it’s really hard to let a man down nicely if he keeps insisting.

    On the other side the better you are at actually accomplishing this without resorting to rudeness the more points you get in the eyes of other men interested in you, so i suggest trying really hard to do it.

  • Esau

    Mike (“Not Matt”) C: “And I’m really just covering old ground here, but again it isn’t the lack of sex that guys get really angry about, it is the lies they get fed on how to be attractive to women as potential sexual partners.”

    To recall a phrase made famous in the 90’s, “It’s not the sex, it’s the lying.” Though it might be old ground, I think this point is still vastly under-appreciated.

    I think it’s a good theory, that in the examples of seemingly disproportionate anger that BSD describes the young man is not so much angry just with the young woman in front of him as he is angry with the entire feminine-industrial-complex that lied to him and ruined his life. He may be disproportionately (if you think so) taking it out on her because she’s right in front of him and so momentarily stands in as the front face of the monster. But, really, where his (or anyone’s) feelings come from are much deeper and more involved than just the person in front of them.

    Anyone can shiver away from someone they think is creepy, but vanishingly few (certainly not BSD) have the compassion or mindfulness to ask, “How did he get that way? What experience did he have that led him here?” No, easier just to make fun of him and move along to better people; nice work if you can get it.

    (Regarding bad information, it flows down from more places than you might think. Where, for instance, might a young man get the (false) idea that cooking dinner should be sure ticket to getting laid? Perhaps he read it here

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/10/14/relationshipstrategies/women-an-instruction-manual/

    Note particularly item “16. We can’t resist a guy acting domestic.
    Cook us dinner, and you will almost certainly get laid.” ‘Nuff said on that one….)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Note particularly item “16. We can’t resist a guy acting domestic.
      Cook us dinner, and you will almost certainly get laid.” ‘Nuff said on that one….)

      I never said that you can bypass sexual attraction altogether, lol. Cooking dinner for a woman (DHV) will definitely get you to sex faster, or get her to fall harder faster, assuming she’s attracted to you to start with.

  • brightstormyday

    @Guestopher:

    You don’t know the person I’m talking about. He treated the people who hosted the formal like servants. He bragged about his money. He repeatedly made comments like,”I wish I could find a beautiful girl to take with me to my mansion in Southern France.” The guy is a douchebag nice guy, and not in a good way. He talks down to people. Everyone I know who’s had to work with him, who’s had to deal with him, agrees he’s impossible. The girls I know who’ve dealt with him (including one female friend) can verify the meal cooking thing. He actually did it for me once (though not only me, but also a few other people in his dorm at the time, though they mysteriously vanished when it was time to eat). I could spend my time giving you every single detail of how much this guy sucks. He comes off as someone with no self esteem who’s trying to act like he’s better than everyone without the street cred to back it up. Fortunately he’s not in my major, but the poeple who have classes with him say he’s the worst to do groupwork with. You have to argue with him and fight him to do anything right and if you go with his idea you’re guaranteed to get a poor grade. He’ll blatantly ignore the rules and guidelines and then flip out if they don’t get an A.

    The thing is, girls will give him a first chance (I did), because he genuinely did seem nice on some level. Not necessarily friendzone beta orbiter nice, but I mean nice but potentially a romantic interest. Then as the evening progressively got worse I realized how tryhard he was. You talk about the “in group,” but if that were the case, everyone who’s ever met him would be in that group. I don’t know anyone who really enjoys his presence. No one enjoys being treated like a servant or like a human being meant to be some halfassed loser’s tool.

    You guys are seeing your face where this guy is. Don’t. You’re not him. It would take a lot to suck that much.

    Oh, and in terms of gossip, he talks shit about every girl he rejected him to every girl he tries to start anew with. “I like you so much better than that bitch BSD.” Then a week later he tried to get me to play frisbee with him. “Oh, talking shit failed on 2390480348 girls, let me go round full circle and find someone else again!”

    You guys make it seem like he’s some sad nerd who tries hard, equivalent to Neville Longbottom in Harry Potter. He’s not. I was friends with those nerds in high school. I’m friends with a more college version of those nerds now (I go to a nerd school). I empathize with nerds. I prefer them to football players and rich WASPs any day of the week. I date engineers and I think Ed Norton is hot. Seriously, put 2 and 2 together from everything I’ve said.

    @Mike C:
    You made the comment about beta orbiters, but seriously, some of those guys I didn’t even expect to get mad at me. Like Butterfly Flower, alphas are the ones who react the most to being rejected. Football players, athletes, etc. take it the absolute worst. They’re so used to saying,”i play teh football and i’m in a frat durrr sleep with me.” that they can’t comprehend anyone saying no. Some of these guys who insulted me were literally drowning in pussy.

    This is why I put PUA’s and tryhard betas in the same category. If a guy is being a nice guy to try to get sex, he sucks. And if a PUA is trying to be an asshole to get sex, he sucks. Anyone who’s doing anything because he thinks women will like it is going to get angry and potentially violent when it doesn’t work. It’s people who’ve achieved zen game (like yohami did, though this new yohami is really weird) who are probably better. Or people who don’t bother with game and just have it.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I remember one time seeing a group of men in the sphere talking about letting men down nicely. But it’s really hard to let a man down nicely if he keeps insisting.”

    There’s a point beyond which decorum is no longer your job – if you’ve been firm (not a hint, but obvious) in your rejection and the dude won’t go away you need to be straight with him and tell him to go away.

    “On the other side the better you are at actually accomplishing this without resorting to rudeness the more points you get in the eyes of other men interested in you, so i suggest trying really hard to do it.”

    +10. This is part of classy femininity – the ethical measure of a woman is how she treats men who have nothing to offer her (i.e. unattractive men).

  • brightstormyday

    @Blues:

    That’s what I’ve been saying here, over and over, and it’s been met with disdain. I date a guy who’s nice to me, who isn’t pressuring me for sex, who’s funny and smart, and every other guy, from the asshole jock to the bitter loser, is saying,”WHY ARE YOU DATING HIM I’M CLEARLY MUCH BETTER.”

    The guys I’ve been describing over and over are no different to the guy from Susan’s previous post, “A Satisfying Tale of Regret.” Someone called me “the one that got away” once. It’s infinitely better to be the “one that got away,” than “that one chick I fucked once behind the bar.” Let’s be real.

    But the guys here keep seeing their faces in all these rejected guys and start trashing me. Why? You’re nothing like them. I would know. So why are you seeing your faces in these people?

  • A.

    From the female perspective, I really don’t think that the thought of manipulation is really what’s at play more than the thought of betrayal. Pure friendships aren’t supposed to include sexual attraction.
    She might be thinking back about all of the personal information that she’s shared with him that she wouldn’t have if she would’ve known he was sexually interested, etc..
    Look at it this way.
    You, as a male, are friends with some guy and later you find out that what he really wanted from you was your girlfriend, or for you to hook him up at your job or something like that. Wouldn’t you feel betrayed?

    .
    Thanks for trying to communicate the female perspective, and I mean that sincerely. But you should know it’s just a perspective, not objective or morally correct.
    .
    Think of it this way. You think a guy should show sexual interest instantly. But did the woman in this friendship make it clear instantly that their relationship was purely platonic and never had a chance of becoming sexual? If not, why should the default assumption be that a friendship has no chance of becoming sexual? Why isn’t she just as guilty of not immediately declaring her intentions?
    .
    As for why this is seen as demonizing men’s sexuality: All men want sex. That doesn’t mean all men are cads, some want sex in a committed, loving relationship, but all men want sex. It’d be one thing if you would assume that a friendship with a man who seems to be happily married to someone else would never become sexual with you. I think men and women can agree on that. But if we’re talking about a man who clearly does not have a wife, a girlfriend, or a sexual relationship (which describes most or all ‘beta orbiters’), you should know he still wants sex. Women might not know this the same way men do, not living their lives drenched in testosterone, but they’ve been told that men want sex so often it’s difficult to imagine how they can not know it, if only second hand. Getting upset that a man is interested in sex comes across as being mad that you could not assume that a man is asexual. Well, men are not asexual, and you should never assume that they are, and it for a sexual being like a man to be thought of as asexual is hurtful.
    .
    As for where men get the idea that “the best way to a romantic relationship is through friendship”, it’s everywhere. It’s hard to believe that people don’t see that.
    .
    Here’s a good example from The Office. Jim tells Michael to take it slow:
    .

    Jim: Actually, I think I am. And I have a little bit of experience in office romance.
    Michael: Oh really?
    Jim: Yeah.
    Michael: Like, with who?
    Jim: We’ve been through this.
    Michael: Pam?
    Jim: Yes, we are still dating. And guess what? I took it slow.
    Michael: Yeah, you took it too slow.
    Jim: Well, we’re really happy.
    Michael: This thing with Holly feels a lot like love to me.
    Jim: And that’s really sweet. And you can think that. But you don’t say that out loud, and you definitely don’t say it to her.
    Michael: I don’t want her to get away.
    Jim: I know. Here, Michael, you can court her as you get to know her, you know? I mean, the office is a great place for that. Pam and I, we got to know each other right out there. I mean, the first time we joked around was at my desk. And the first meal we ever had was, in the break room, actually. We were at two separate tables and, I remember that. The first time we kissed even, was right outside, and… Look, all I’m saying is that you can get to know someone really really well, like I did, right here at work.

    .
    and
    .

    Michael: Did you see Holly’s butt?
    Jim: No, I didn’t. [Michael laughs] You know why?
    Michael: Why?
    Jim: Because most of the time, friends don’t talk about other friends’ butts.
    Michael: I know.
    Jim: But what have you learned about her?
    Michael: I learned that she broke her left leg twice in one year. I learned that she’s allergic to sesame seeds. I learned that she has read “Lonesome Dove” three times.
    Jim: Nice.
    Michael: And that her butt refuses to quit!
    Jim: Well, I tried.

    .
    Of course it doesn’t work.
    .

    Michael: Close the door. This is your fault.
    Jim: Nope.
    Michael: Your stupid friend zone.
    Jim: Mmm.
    Michael: I should have been lovers with her first and then friends. That was terrible advice. Terrible advice! You know my seduction method. I like to get in there and get my hands dirty! Wh— You sabotaged me. You sabotaged me, man!

    .
    The utterly bizarre thing about this is that taking it slow is NOT what got Jim Pam. If he kept on that course, she would have married Roy. The only thing that got Jim Pam was when he finally became blatant.
    .

    Jim: I was just… I’m in love with you.
    Pam: What?
    Jim: I’m really sorry if that’s weird for you to hear, but I needed you to hear it. Probably not good timing, I know that. I just…
    Pam: What are you doing? What do you expect me to say to that?
    Jim: I just needed you to know. Once.
    Pam: Well, I um… I… I can’t.
    Jim: Yeah.
    Pam: You have no idea…
    Jim: Don’t do that.
    Pam: …what your friendship means to me.
    Jim: Come on. I don’t wanna do that. I wanna be more than that.

    .
    Considering that Jim is more the hero of the show and Michael is more like the “Homer Simpson”, it seems like the writers are endorsing Jim’s “nice guy” approach.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @A
      I’ve thought a lot about the writers of The Office and Jim as the nice guy beta. You’re right – it was only when he went for it blatantly that he had any success – and even that took awhile. In fact, he had to tell Pam he was dating Karen for her to get totally bummed. Jim didn’t have Game, but in the end his self-respect won the day.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t get the anger over sex either. My god, that is why masterbation was discovered and we’ve raised it to an art form! The longing, the ache? Sure. But anger? Seriously, make friends with your hand or a dildo. They even make fake vaginas now too!

    This is the essential female program, men: it’s the female sexual utopia lived out in large. In a completely liberal sexual system, men are utterly at women’s mercy, and the traits women select for (aggressiveness, cruelty, narcissism and power) are replicated into the seeds of the future.

    Don’t doubt for even a second that this isn’t extremely serious, life-or-death stuff. Women do not work on a moral code, they won’t take mercy on you in the market: they will, as we well know, give little more than an indifferent thought to the prospect of relegating you to masturbation and solitude. The only response is to up the ante, to play the game and fuck them on their terms. You are in competition with all other men, now. I won’t let you sink. But you’re alone in your struggle.

  • Anonymous

    I tend to notice that they are religious on some level (at my friend’s church these two guys introduce themselves as Sexy and Danger).

    Sounds like a great church with real spiritual values, lady.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Esau,

    “Note particularly item “16. We can’t resist a guy acting domestic.
    Cook us dinner, and you will almost certainly get laid.” ‘Nuff said on that one….)”

    Cringe. It’s funny how for its first year or two, HUS was pretty much Susan transcribing the “he did this, I wish he’d do that” chatter of her cliques of college-aged female associates, with some handwavy MBA strategic jargon on the side. Not too far away from the Frisky or other young-female lifestyle blogs.

    Sadly, Susan was of a piece with this, penning lots (and lots) of shaming of college men, to the point her own son told her she was too hard on guys. Also lots of apex fallacy, presuming that the tastes and habits of top men existed across the spectrum (betas are invisible), and another phenomenon we don’t have a name for, which is presuming that actions performed by attractive men are themselves attractive – e.g., if a hot guy cooks, you tell guys that cooking is hot, when it’s only hot if done by a hot guy.

    The most maddening aspect of those types of sites is the feigned helplessness – the sense among the women that they don’t have any agency, that these men passed through a membrane into their reality and started controlling their minds, and that they can’t possibly be expected to actively choose (or even pursue, omg) more decent men.

    Like that sorority chick from UNC saying half the men on campus are undateable.

    HUS was of no use to me because quite frankly I’ve long since lost sympathy for alpha chasers who complain they’re not getting the princess treatment they tell their beta orbiters they want.

    Then the Manosphere got ahold of HUS. Swaths of wise male advice, plus a lot of the beta viewpoint (“these chicks won’t give me a second look”) flooded in. Susan listened, got wise and now she’s one of the top thinkers on young adult life issues I know of. IN a testament to her magnanimity, Susan very quickly copped to male friendliness. Then again this is a woman who has publicly aknowledged penis envy.

    Every now and then women commenters complain there are too many dudes making too much noise, too “anti-woman,” etc. Phooey on them, they can have their girls’ club at Feministing or something and hold meetings at cat adoption events.

    It’s interesting to read her old stuff. Some of it is still pretty good.

    That all being said, there is a lot of truth to cooking to bang, if it’s done right. To cook for her, you have to get her into your place alone. First off, women don’t go to men’s apartments alone unless they have some attraction, so unless you’ve already been friendzoned, seduction is on the table. Cooking is a great mix of alpha (make it a show) and beta (comfort) traits and is a surprisingly rare talent today. Segues easily to the couch, which goes you know where. You get to show off your place. It’s cheaper than a comparable meal at a restaurant.

    It’s not a guarantee. If I cooked a woman dinner and she then LJBF’d me that night, I’d tell her to GTFO. Not at all because of denial of sex (I’m not entitled to it), but because the evening was conducted under false pretenses.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      It’s interesting to read her old stuff. Some of it is still pretty good.

      I cringe too at some of the old posts. I seriously considered going through and deleting some, and then decided I like the arc of the blog. It’s been a journey toward some kind of truth and understanding, and I’m happy to have it out there for public consumption. You may recall that I wrote a manuscript before I started the blog, and a NYC literary agent told me that she liked it, and that I write with authority, but that I had no credibility – no platform. I started HUS to create a platform. Now I’ve got that, and the manuscript is a piece of crap. Thank God it was never published. I’ve learned on the job, and mostly I see myself as the conduit to bring males and females together. I’ve been here only minimally this week – and the discussions continue. I started as a one-woman show, and now it feels like a neighborhood. I guess I’m the mayor, but that’s about it.

  • brightstormyday

    @Blues, Badger:

    re letting a guy down:

    I usually just avoid them and ignore them. After I’ve said it so many times, my instinct is to avoid confrontation. If they get angry at me, I just disappear. If they don’t but keep insisting after I say no over and over, I just don’t respond. It’s a horrible coping mechanism but I don’t know what else to do. Also, I find the fact that a man does not computer rejection and doesn’t understand “no” potentially dangerous long run. I also avoid doing it around friends because some of them can be major buttheads (two of them laughed when I turned a guy down for a dance). I don’t know if they do it to feel better about themselves or what but it’s just so disrespectful.

    note to girls (though I think most of the girls here will get it):
    Don’t exaggerate a friend’s rejection. If your female friend rejects a guy, don’t go around telling people and dramatizing it. Don’t make it seem like it’s so funny. Don’t exaggerate the guy’s awkward traits, because he must have had something about him that initially piqued your friend’s interest. She might also want to keep in touch with him, or maybe doesn’t want to close her doors with other potential friends and etc. Don’t close her doors for her.

    That was the biggest issue for me freshman year. I had a friend or two that, looking back, were probably just living vicariously through me, but…I don’t think they understood the damage they were doing. It’s bad enough a guy is getting rejected by one girl, he doesn’t need to get rejected by three.

  • Anonymous

    Don’t exaggerate a friend’s rejection. If your female friend rejects a guy, don’t go around telling people and dramatizing it. Don’t make it seem like it’s so funny. Don’t exaggerate the guy’s awkward traits, because he must have had something about him that initially piqued your friend’s interest. She might also want to keep in touch with him, or maybe doesn’t want to close her doors with other potential friends and etc. Don’t close her doors for her.

    Jesus Christ, stones in glass houses much? Are you for real?

  • Anonymous

    Guys don’t “reward girls with sexual attention”. That is girl think. “She-hos” don”t disgust guys if they are hot, any normal guy finds a hot “she-ho” very attractive. They just don’t respect them. Disgust /= lack of respect. Players don’t “reward she-hos with sexual attention”. They dump loads in a cum-bucket. Mind you, I’m not moralizing here…I’m telling you the typical male mentality. The fact that for one second you think males “reward with sexual attention” tells me just how fundamentally you misunderstand male-female sexual dynamics.

    Girls don’t enthusiastically volunteer to become cum-dumpsters. If she’s fucking you, it means she likes you and believes that you like her, even if only superficially. If you are fucking a slut, you are validating her and what she is doing. So yes, you are “rewarding her with sexual attention” and that’s kinda dumb, but I understand. Little head gets the final say.

  • brightstormyday

    Yeah I am. I don’t always do everything the right way, but I don’t want people around me to make it worse. Yes, some guys are buttheads. I was highlighting examples of guys who were unnecessarily angry and aggressive and it was a turnoff. But I also acknowledge that I didn’t mention that some guys get it worse than they should. Maybe, from what everyone’s said, the guys who got angry at me and exploded on me were the same ones that previously were laughed at and insulted by a girl. And while they stood there and took it from her, they just weren’t going to deal with a,”I’m sorry, I don’t let guys in my room” that night. Maybe they confused my friendliness for being dtf. I don’t know. I just don’t think it’s fair that a lot of girls I know are getting the fallback from girls who are making fun of these guys and being huge bitches. And we know tons of guys who aren’t angry, who aren’t bitter, who aren’t offensive, so why waste our time trying to fix these guys? Especially if they’re being angry and offensive to us to our faces and behind our backs?

    Just like you guys complain about girls sleeping with tons of guys and then withholding sex from the “nice guys,” girls hate it when guys waste years in relationships with huge bitches that clearly have things wrong with them (cocaine addiction, overall just a bitch, mentally unstable, cruel to children and animals, kills his pet, hates his family, hates him, never wears makeup or dresses up to go out, gains 30 lb and won’t take it off, cheats on him, has slept with 40 people in one year, etc.) then project that image unto every other girl and try to go on a “revenge fuck” spree to get back at his ex or to “get over his oneitis,” and then insult every girl he can because he couldn’t do it to the one who deserved it.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not talking about your prolonged excuse to gloat about how you just get so much unwanted attention, I’m just absolutely astounded that you had the cojones to tell women not to mock or play up a man’s rejection while basically doing exactly that, in the same thread, about some random who had the misfortune of cooking you dinner, and at some considerable length to boot. How fucking conceited can you be, seriously?

  • brightstormyday

    I wasn’t doing that. I was giving examples of why sometimes girls reject guys. Then when people tried to feel sorry for the guy, I said why no one (male or female) did. Because he wasn’t a nice person. He was a mean person pretending to be nice. He treated people like they were inferiors and no one liked it. So he gets booted off the island by virtually everyone who has the misfortune to meet him. I wouldn’t have kept discussing it if people kept trying to defend him on the basis that he was rejected. I’ve met people who are genuinely sweet and get treated like crap because they are too nice. He’s not one of them.

    Also, I’m talking about him on an anonymous forum, where no one could know who he is, and it won’t damage his rep. I was giving an example of how not to fucking act. Notice how no one gets upset over me rejecting an asshole football player, but they get angry when I reject an asshole pretending to be a nice guy. Irony. Furthermore, I’m talking about public behavior. Never once have I stood next to a girl rejecting a guy and then laugh at him afterwards. Never once have I talked about friends rejections and exaggerated them and made fun of guys my friends dumped or rejected. That’s between her and him, not me and him.

    This isn’t about gloating. A girl gloating about getting attention is like gloating about getting a dog to hump your leg. Notice how other girls here and Susan have made comments about creepy past experiences. Take a lesson from them, seriously.

  • Anonymous

    Do you have even the slightest sense of self-awareness whatsoever? Your reaction to me calling you out on mocking some guy is to go ahead and do it again?

    Get over yourself

  • Guestopher

    @brightstormyday,

    I get it. He’s an outcast among non-traditional people (with many patents pending!) This elaborate meals (EM) guy is an unpleasant person and has no friends. I’m just wondering what’s your take on your own behavior as I asked “Why is it funny/noble/cool that a guy who isn’t having such a difficult time socially would go out of his way to make a guy at the bottom of the social barrel feel worse?” It sounds like EM guy has an anger management problem, so your friend thinks it would be fun to try and get a rise out of him? You’re probably smarter than I am, but it sounds like people other than EM guy have maturity issues.

    My only theory is that women like it when guys are socially dominant, even if it involves picking on the weak who have no friends. I’ve also heard the theory that women like men who are popular and jerks to other men. Just being a jerk without social capital and crassly misogynistic around women is a recipe for failure.

    The comments have gone far away from Slut Walks. I’m glad we’re revisiting the question of whether angry sexless guy is angry because he’s sexless or angry because he only finds lies during his quest for sex or relationships (be yourself!) I agree that it’s the lies from society and women that really upset angry sexless guys. For example, lots of guys get told “I don’t have sex on the first date” and “I don’t have guys over” but have heard through the grapevine that Mary has had lots of guys over and screwed a few on the first date.

    Also
    “It’s people who’ve achieved zen game (like yohami did, though this new yohami is really weird) who are probably better. Or people who don’t bother with game and just have it.”

    Yes, we’re all well aware that women want guys who are naturally good with women and that women think it’s creepy when a guy tries to mimic a natural in order to have his sexual and romantic relationship needs met. Is there a male equivalent? Is it creepy for a woman with skin problems to wear makeup? Is it creepy when a man meets a woman in real life and discovers that she’s 30lbs heavier than her profile weight/picture? Is it creepy when a woman wears a padded bra? Thoughts anyone?

  • brightstormyday

    I wasn’t mocking him. I was being honest on people’s reactions towards him. *shrugs* You’ve never met someone like that? Aren’t there tons of character portrayals of people like that? Isn’t Andy from the office kind of like that? (I don’t watch the office, so sorry if I’m wrong). Isn’t Gaston from Beauty and the Beast a tad like that? (but somewhat has a reason to be, since he has validation from people in the village, this guy has none). How about Wormtail from Harry Potter (He’s probably the best example)? I was just giving an example of someone who seemed nice, but wasn’t good. I should have just said,”Not everyone who’s nice is good, and not everyone who’s good is nice,” and saved myself the trouble.

    Also, do you get your kicks from derailing conversations and using ad hominem to try to devalue truths you don’t want to accept? Is that how you go about your day? Did I strike a chord with you? Were you someone who wasn’t widely accepted and resented everyone for it? Did you grow up feeling like you were nice to people (or girls) and have them treat you like garbage? Do you identify with this individual simply on the basis of rejection, therefore, you project your anger of every girl that has rejected you unto me? You don’t have to answer, I’m just genuinely curious. If you’re female, I apologize.

  • A.

    I don’t get the anger over sex either. My god, that is why masterbation was discovered and we’ve raised it to an art form! The longing, the ache? Sure. But anger? Seriously, make friends with your hand or a dildo. They even make fake vaginas now too!

    .
    I actually saw this argument in a *college textbook* once. I was flabbergasted. It said something like, “Rape is about power, not sex. It can’t be about sexual release, because that’s obtainable with masturbation”. (That was the entire argument, a couple of sentences)
    .
    Um, what? By that logic, no one would have sex at all, because why can’t you just masturbate instead? Okay, it might be better in the context of a loving, committed relationship. But then why do one-night-stands exist? Obviously, there must be something better about sex than masturbation.

  • brightstormyday

    @Guestopher:

    I think you hit the mark when you said that. He was being a jerk with no social proof. And I do agree that my friends were just trying to elevate themselves by kicking him when he was already down (which is why I sort of shifted over to a different group of people and distanced myself from them a little, not that I “ditched” my friends, but that I was kind of sick of the constant bullying that was going on; what would stop them from doing that to me?)

    I do think it’s messed up that women do that. I think it’s messed up that fat girls have only face pics as their profile pictures. I think it’s messed up when a girl spends hours on her makeup to paint herself a new face, or photoshops are her fb pictures to change all her facial features.

    Similarly, I know that every guy has a method he’s learned on some level in terms of social interactions with people. As we get older, we figure out what works in the social hierarchy. We figure out things to say to people and how to handle situations so everyone comes out of it as best as possible. For women it’s not just about appearance, it’s about modulating behavior as well, being more feminine. We all are going to try to improve ourselves as best as we can. So I don’t necessarily think learning game, and trying to improve yourself is inherently creepy. Humans aren’t perfect.

    I think in terms of the makeup analogy… I get that wearing makeup is nice for the man you’re dating (depending), he wants to see you at your prettiest. But I also know that the girls who cake their faces with obvious layers of makeup get it the worst from guys who can either tell they’re wearing layers of makeup, or who see what they look like in the morning, and if their made up face is significantly better than reality, yikes! So these made up girls do get it bad in the end.

    Similarly, I think back in the old days, there was no talk of alpha or beta. things just were the way they were. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong. But I feel like men knew how to act like men, women knew how to act like women. And I don’t think women having careers and being feminine is mutually exclusive. So maybe game can best be compared to women today using artificial methods to enhance their beauty. It’s just these artificial methods age you. Foundation is so bad for your skin in the long run. Mascara is bad for your eyelashes, and fake eyelashes make them fall out! Fake nails are bad for real nails! etc. I think maybe getting too far into game can poison someone’s personality. Make them angry and bitter. Same way being a slut for a woman can poison her personality. Also, see how dtetennui (I know I spelled this incorrectly) was complaining about his wife lying to him about her partner count in another thread. Being deceptive can hurt anyone in the long run.

    I’ve just seen guys who girls crush on that aren’t sleeping around. Maybe they’re oblivious to the world. Maybe they’re aware but picky. And they’re all so different. One can be a Christian waiting till marriage, one can be kind of a nerd, the other can be the funny nice guy, one might have a bit more of a bad boy edge, one can be a bad boy romantic. I’m sure some of them might have a higher EQ than others. I’m sure maybe they figured out how to handle certain situations with girls. Or maybe they just had a good father figure to teach them, or their parents had a good marriage and provided a good example of what a healthy relationship should be to them. I don’t know.

    I just question these canned responses and techniques. It’s not a question of whether they work, I’m sure they do, and on top of that, game teaches a numbers game, which means that if it doesn’t work the first five times it might work the sixth. I just question if there’s any difference. Both guys have an agenda. Both guys get angry and rude and offensive when it doesn’t work. Both guys are letting their good sides get clouded with anger and frustration. The things that can work for them are getting polluted, and then they replace it with something fake. It might work, it might not work. I just feel it’s the same.

  • brightstormyday

    @Susan Walsh:

    Thanx. <3333333

    Also, your comment on asshole game. Such a win.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I hope it was obvious to you that they were not nice guys. Players always use that line – and also have their friends reassure you what “good guys” they are.

    But that’s just it – they’re not obvious players. They’re regular guys you think you know, only to find out they’re complete jerks trying to pressure you for sex.

    Your sexual identity has nothing to do with your willingness to deal with manwhores. Many straight women don’t have to deal with them either. They avoid them.

    Since I’ve been posting on the blogosphere, the first thing I said was “I don’t like Alpha manwhores”. I purposely avoid them. They’re attracted to me, but I avoid them.

    However, I spent forever pursuing Beta-ish guys, but whenever I hit on a Beta they’d act disinterested or annoyed. Betas go out of their way to ignore IOIs.

    So I gave up on Betas and quickly met my boyfriend.

    I think the people in the blogosphere need to stop claiming Betas are these awesome infallible men that feminism brainwashed women to not date. I was a nice good girl virgin interested in Betas, but then I realized I deserve better.

  • brightstormyday

    I heart enginerds.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    I never said that you can bypass sexual attraction altogether, lol. Cooking dinner for a woman (DHV) will definitely get you to sex faster, or get her to fall harder faster, assuming she’s attracted to you to start with.

    A while back, some men at Roissy’s blog asked if cooking for a girl would seem weak and beta. Those men clearly don’t understand the dating market. As long as it’s done from a place of confidence and genuine enjoyment, cooking for a girl will never hurt your chances.

    I love to cook. Moreover, I especially love to cook desserts, arguably the most feminine type of foods to cook. Girls always ate it up, because I never did it to impress them. I did it because I like to cook, and I like to share the things I enjoy with others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kane
      Welcome – once you start publishing blog posts, be sure to sign up for Comment Luv so we can see what you’re writing.

      As long as it’s done from a place of confidence and genuine enjoyment, cooking for a girl will never hurt your chances.

      Agreed. In fact, most things will be a DHV if they’re done from that passionate place.

  • Esau

    Note particularly item “16. We can’t resist a guy acting domestic.
    Cook us dinner, and you will almost certainly get laid.” ‘Nuff said on that one….)

    Susan: “I never said that you can bypass sexual attraction altogether, lol.”

    LOL, what a weird and twisted response. I think that what you said, pretty clearly, was that cooking will in itself generate sexual attraction. If you want to argue that there’s any appreciable daylight between “will almost certainly get you laid” and “will create sexual attraction”, then you deserve a whole new class of hair-splitting award.

    Cooking dinner for a woman (DHV) will definitely get you to sex faster, or get her to fall harder faster, assuming she’s attracted to you to start with.”

    Note that that long-ago post advertised itself as an “Instruction Manual”; and that nowhere in Item 16, nor anywhere in the post as a whole, did it say “This instruction is only for the case that she’s already attracted to you”. As an unqualified, stand-alone piece of advice — which is the way it was presented — Item 16 was just wrong; just admit it and we can all move on.

    I agree with Badger, who I’m glad chimed in here, that in those days you were writing within the grips of an implicit apex fallacy, meaning that by “men” you always silently meant “attractive men” or “men we are already attracted to”; it was to be understood that non-attractive or not-yet-attractive men were not being discussed (and hence didn’t functionally exist). And, let me hasten to add, I also agree with Badger that you’ve shown a lot of willingness and capacity to learn since then.

    However, it is also true (agreeing with Badger one more time) that some of your writing was ahead of its time even back then. For instance, Item 23 from that same list, which is headed “23. We like to be dominated sometimes.”, was a brave departure from the politically correct, feminist-approved party line. (Though, one question you’ve never answered is whether the BU Crew concurred with that sentiment #23 or not.) We’re all interested to see what form your hard-won insights will take next; when’s the book coming out?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau
      I am guilty as charged of having been in the grip of the apex fallacy. I never had even heard of alpha or beta or frustrated STEM majors or social proof or any of the rest of it. That’s true of nearly all American women – and it’s one of the drums I beat frequently now. Women need to understand it, so that they can understand their own attraction triggers, which we mostly are ignorant about.

      Re “the book” – as I said, the original book is just wrong, wrong, wrong. I need to write a new book. Currently, I don’t have the time for that – I honestly have no idea how Athol was able to get it done. I’ve been doing some strategic planning, though, in hopes of carving out some additional time. The first priority is getting some tech support, including a redesign of the site.

      Thanks for asking :)

  • Anonymous Lurker

    Anonymous to Matt or Mike C (im confused about who said what) when he responded to my comment about “rewarding women with sex” that “men don’t reward women with sex, we use them as cum-dumpsters”;

    “Girls don’t enthusiastically volunteer to become cum-dumpsters. If she’s fucking you, it means she likes you and believes that you like her, even if only superficially. If you are fucking a slut, you are validating her and what she is doing. So yes, you are “rewarding her with sexual attention” and that’s kinda dumb, but I understand. Little head gets the final say.”

    Yes. That was my point exactly. Thankyou for articulating that to him/them.

    Stephanie, wrt Darwin beating out Einstein in the morality game. Darwin also did not believe in God or follow any religion, so my point still stands. One does not have to believe in God or follow religion to have a high moral compas or aspire to something beyond one’s own immediate gratification and happiness.

    WRT meaning vs happiness, there is no dichotomy. A strong sense of meaning delivers a deep happiness to the individual. What some here are interpreting as “happiness” is just short term sensual gratification. One can be a hedonist for his or her entire lifetime and be completely unhappy and discontent.

    Find meaning, happiness will follow.

    WRT Brightstormyday and her male companion “ridiculing” the other guy, she made it clear that this man would could elaborate meals for women and then YELL at them when they did not do what he wanted.

    The only way to deal with an a**hole is by being an a**hole back, or completely ignoring him. NEVER reward entitled, a**hole behaviour with niceness. It just feeds the beast. That goes for both sexes.

    WRT turning down men “softly. Sure, if the man’s approach is soft, turn him down softly. If his approach is bold but not offensive, turn him down boldly but not offensively. If his approach is rude and aggressive, right back atcha!

    WRT men cooking for women being “attractive”. YES, provided the woman is attracted to him.

    WRT men cooking for women being a turn on, yeah, provided the men are hot to beginwith.

  • imnobody

    (From the “satisfying tale of regret” and the discussion about Tom’s gender).

    @Jesus

    Tom has convinced me. Yes, he is a man. But she speaks so much like a woman that I found the perfect explanation. He has been raised in a feminist commune so he hasn’t seen another man in all his life. The same way children who are raised by wolves they don’t know how to talk like a human (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child), Tom is the male’s Mowgli.

    So I decided to teach her him how he/she/it can talk like a man and not like a woman unsuccessfully trying to talk like a man. F*ck it: I do it just for fun. I’m bored today..

    I never knew I was going to be a language teacher again, after all these years and IN ENGLISH!!!. Let the class begin..

    Had you not been an insecure little twerp all you life

    Dear Tammy Tom, such a high number of men got into you were intimate with your wife and you haven’t learned yet that men don’t insult one each other calling themselves “insecure”. In fact, “insecure” is a word that men very rarely use. If you look it up in the womannish- mannish dictionary (we have one in the school):

    insecure. \ˌin-si-ˈkyur\. Adjective. Shaming language that woman employ when trying to shame men for rejecting them, untranslatable to mannish

    Example of use: The guy I dated online didn’t want to date me when he saw I’m twenty years older and forty pounds fatter (true story happened to imnobody) than my Internet profile claimed. He’s so insecure. He is intimidated by real women and he only wants barely legal girls without sexual experience so he can rape them.

    A man can calls another man fag, even sissy. But “insecure”? It’s like an angry man telling another man that his nails are not polished, you queen. Start by forbidding the word “insecure” from your vocabulary. You use it a lot

    Their deep insecurity tells them they might be better off … I am tired of insecure little boy type minds and like a ten times more that I don’t include here.

    Mens egos are threatened by a sexually knowledgable woman

    In mannish language, being threatened by a woman does not exist. The dictionary tells “threatened” is a synonym of “insecure” so everything about insecure applies here

    Im not sure why men think that once a woman discovers herself sexually

    Again, men don’t speak this way. Try with “once a woman f*cks around”. If you want to sound like a frustrated male feminist say “once a woman has a rich sexual experience”. But “discover herself”???? Give me a break. It’s as if this woman were Columbus and America at the same time. Completely ridiculous for men (but women language is prone to euphemisms).

    I am tired of insecure little boy type minds who come here crying that no woman loves me, so I am swearing off women because they are all the same

    Shaming language. http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/. Code Blue and Code Lavender. As womannish as having a vagina.

    , maybe you would have had a little fun. Finally growing some balls I see? Hell you are even trying to be the tough guy behind the puter screen … If you saw me in person, I guarentee you would not insult me to my face.

    If a man talks this way, I’m David Carradine. Did you learn this from the Kung Fu show? (like the “learn Grasshoper, learn” you include in one of your messages)? Probably not, Kung Fu was somewhat worthy. Maybe from something like that http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078058/.

    But the most important thing, dear Tom, is that man couldn’t care less about other men’s sexual preferences (even his close friends). Men’s philosophy is “live and let live”. And you have 500+ posts, only on HUS, telling strangers that they shouldn’t discard high-mileage women

    Now, Tom you can talk like a man. It’s a start. For the next step, go here: http://bit.ly/eajhqI

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @imnobody
      That language lesson is hilarious.

  • tito

    Kane you said,
    “I never did it to impress them. I did it because I like to cook, and I like to share the things I enjoy with others.”

    If that is true, then why not kick the girl out and enjoy cooking and eating by yourself? you did to impress her. It is all about affecting the attitude. You care.

  • tito

    “Mens egos are threatened by a sexually knowledgable woman”

    hahahahaha! what the hell does this even mean, lol! i just happened to see while scanning. wow! the sonorous language used to shame is really something.

    well then my dear, if such goofiness is true, why then should you be threatening anyone anyhow? isn’t threatening a baaad thing? if your highness was feeling threatened then would the reverse apply?

  • Jess

    I’m just about to read the earlier comments but in the meantime I think i will state that i think men egos are a major factor here.
    Fear of a previous guy being a better lover being the principle concern I would say.
    Of course, women can suffer the same jealousy…but doesn’t seem to manifest itself in such a bitter way perhaps.

  • Jess

    Anonymous lurker,
    You will I hope forgive me kissing butt however your recent posts are top drawer. Great stuff.

  • tito

    not exactly Jess. fear has nothing to do with it. fear is a buzzword that feminists have inculcated. it is perhaps loathing. no man care’s about it per se, what the problem is is what the consequences of it will be.

  • Blues

    I’m just about to read the earlier comments but in the meantime I think i will state that i think men egos are a major factor here.
    Fear of a previous guy being a better lover being the principle concern I would say.
    Of course, women can suffer the same jealousy…but doesn’t seem to manifest itself in such a bitter way perhaps.

    Here’s the thing, Jess, the banshee level screaming of women about how men are bothered with high numbers tell me women are even more afraid than men, the thing is i’m not sure of what, ¿that a quality man will disqualify her for having a high number or being prevented having fun by achieving a high number if she wants a quality man for commitment?

  • Jess

    Tito
    I beg to differ. I think fear is often exactly the right word.
    .
    Blues,
    I have no particular desire to reopen the numbers debate again, but I will say that high numbers didn’t harm all my peers who are all married with kiddies. Also, perhaps even more telling, is that I found almost no men that i have spoken to face to face who have such loathing. Some here say that counts for nothing. I say that your day to day and entire life’s observations and experiences have to count for something.
    .
    For both,
    .
    Also, and I have no axe to grind here, but I would advise any girl to steer clear of any guy who pronounces loathing of men or women who wish to express their sexuality. I wouldn’t choose the lifestyle of many people in this world. But I would like to think I respect them. Loathing should be required for murderers or molesters surely?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jess, it has nothing to do with fear of not measuring up to a previous lover’s performance. I would have more respect for a girl that had been with 10 guys she was in a relationship with than I would for a girl who’d been with 5 guys if any of them were casual hook ups.

    Girls who give it up to guys that aren’t willing to commit are just not desirable catches in my eyes. They give it away too cheaply and easily.

    Not to mention that the types of guys they typically go for when they’re hooking up casually are usually players and narcissistic jerks. I’m not afraid that these guys are better lovers. I would imagine such guys are typically selfish and self absorbed lovers. I’m just turned off at the thought of a girl giving it up so easily to them.

  • Abbot

    “Mens egos are threatened by a sexually knowledgable woman”

    hahahahaha! what the hell does this even mean, lol! i just happened to see while scanning. wow! the sonorous language used to shame is really something.
    .
    That means that the recasters are back, albeit after a lull after being called on their constant attempts to relabel or redefine how men feel so as to make them appear foolish for having such foolish thoughts. The goal is to stop the message that female promiscuity is a disrespectful trait for anything in life, except of course its positive for the 21 percent of men who service nearly all of these mal-parented empowerment-starved women.
    .
    I think i will state that i think men egos are a major factor here.
    .
    A “different” recaster predictably chimes in. Why make such a statement? Can it be any more transparent?
    .
    Fear of a previous guy being a better lover being the principle concern I would say.
    .
    Oh yeah. You “say” because it makes you feel better. Perfectly inserted to make female readers say “oh yeah, thats what it is. Wow. Feel so much better about my slut ways”
    .
    Women listen up – if you dont want the man you covet to have concerns about multitudes of prior “lovers” [fuckers] then DONT HAVE THEM!!! There is NO other way because men will not change on this issue ever. Case closed.
    .
    women can suffer the same jealousy…but doesn’t seem to manifest itself in such a bitter way perhaps.
    .
    Suffer? If someone is suffering, they typically move away from the source of suffering. Why would anyone stick around to the point of suffering? Thats just total fucking stupidity. You must know a bunch of masochists or are just spewing bullshit. Oh, that good ol feminist favorite recast term – bitter. Yeah, the recast propagandists are out in full form today.
    .
    Got more?

  • Abbot

    the banshee level screaming of women about how men are bothered with high numbers tell me women are even more afraid than men, the thing is i’m not sure of what, ¿that a quality man will disqualify her for having a high number or being prevented having fun by achieving a high number if she wants a quality man for commitment?
    .
    Those screamers constantly make comments on this website. They attempt to do so calmly but ad hominems slip out of frustration. Except for a handful of revenge-minded feminists who have no intention of marrying, women do NOT like that men are bothered with high numbers, especially men who are servicing their needy multi man vaginas. Any sane woman, drunk or otherwise, would shudder knowing that the man she allowed to enter into her loathed her for having done so. And shudder she does. Any sane woman would shudder upon learning that a man she desires for life used her sexual past as one criteria among many in deciding his comfort level with her. And shudder she does.
    .
    She cannot understand why something so pleasurable and so CHEAP, so EASY is met with such discomfort by men. After all, it feels so right and the BC pills make it such a snap to clean up. That lack of understanding is no reason why men should feel any different about it. That lack of understanding is HER problem, not his. A Woman, if she cares about her romantic life at all, can learn about men and how they think and then adjust her behavior accordingly. Or not. NOBODY CARES. Well, the Discovery Agents who these women are so clearly dependent on may care for obvious reason.

  • Matt C

    Wait, Matt C is 19 and not Mike C, the one who wrote silly comments? OK, don’t worry Matt C, I’ll teach you all you need to know about women. ;)
    I’m not *that* much older than you, and besides, pumas and cougars are all the rage these days!
    What state are you in?

    I’ll let you teach me if you can give me one good quality you think men have.

    In fact, I have seen so much shittalking from women in this comment section about all the BAD things men do, it would be nice if any one of them could step forward and try to find one good thing about men. Or are you all convinced that the majority of men are bad people out to ruin your lives?

  • HEIFA

    I’ve always found men to be very helpful.

  • Butterfly Flower

    In fact, I have seen so much shittalking from women in this comment section about all the BAD things men do, it would be nice if any one of them could step forward and try to find one good thing about men. Or are you all convinced that the majority of men are bad people out to ruin your lives?

    We’re not talking about men in general, we’re just talking about the men we don’t like.

    My boyfriend doesn’t behave like a sex-obsessed creeper. My boyfriend is caring, kind, abstinent, and deserves a good girl like me. & he certainly doesn’t call me a “cocktease” because I just want to make-out with him.

  • C

    I think that promiscuous women will just learn to lie about their sexual history, instead of asking men to accept it. Men will just unknowingly end up with women who have a high number of sexual partners. It’s not like he has anyway of knowing the truth without her saying so.

  • tito

    @Susan

    “Women need to understand it, so that they can understand their own attraction triggers, which we mostly are ignorant about.”

    and then what? rise above? or will that be too hard for the little girlies?

    it is truly amazing what incredible ignorance our society lives in. and yet, they think that they are living in some advanced age and that all previous peoples were somehow in the dark. it’s actually kinda funny.

    @Jess

    i’m tellin’ ya, get off the (feminist induced buzzword) fear thing. you are projecting (innocently) a female feeling onto males in this case. it is about loathing and levels of bs anticipated.

  • Blues

    Women need to understand it, so that they can understand their own attraction triggers, which we mostly are ignorant about.

    I don’t think just understanding will do much, you said that Day 1 HUS readers are still dating rugby assholes despite having way much more understanding than that of the average woman. Nate Winchester had it right when he said that the difference lies in the education but also being accountable for your own actions instead of rationalizing them, that IMO would be the real deal breaker.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Some women may be shrilling like banshees over the idea that many men may not want a woman with high numbers, but there is no less banshee shrilling over the suggestion that if a man wants a self-controlled and sexually moderate or even fully chaste woman, that he himself should exhibit the same level of self-control.

    Do you really think in this day and age of rampant STIs that may show no symptoms but yet render both men and women sterile (such as HPV) that women have absolutely no cause for concern over the previous sexual behaviour of their future husbands?

    Think again.

    Another thing to consider is that some men here seem to be under the impression that women do not lust as strongly as they do. Keep in mind that while you may lust with your loins, we women have secondary sex characteristics that are highly senstive.

    You’ve not known true longing until you’ve had a bosom heaving with desire to be touched.

    That may be TMI, sorry, but I just can’t believe the disconnect here from the men when it comes to female sexuality. We want sex just as much, if not MORE, as you do.

    So if you want us to be un-jaded and STI free when you fall in love with us, then reciprocate the same, please.

    Thankyou for the kind consideration.

  • Abbot

    I think that promiscuous women will just learn to lie about their sexual history, instead of asking men to accept it.
    ,
    That confirms that there is a clear and severe MAN SHORTAGE for certain “types” of women. To lie is to be desperate. Desperate people lie. What we have here a group of very desperate women totally dependent on men for happiness by any means possible.
    .
    All that is avoidable. Attention ladies – dont be promiscuous.
    .
    Men will just unknowingly end up with women who have a high number of sexual partners.
    .
    Is that some sort of “getting one over” on men strategy that a woman will torture herself with? Do feminists advocate this? What is the life span of “unknowingly?” Do the markers of promiscuous women – mal-parenting, dysfunctional families and psychological damage – actually lead to this type of cold hearted pyschopathic and sociopathic behavior? Seems plausible.
    .
    It’s not like he has anyway of knowing the truth without her saying so.
    .
    I am certain many folks could chime in on this one. Forty years of slut tells add up.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    “Women need to understand it, so that they can understand their own attraction triggers, which we mostly are ignorant about.”

    I think the understanding should be of the consequences. I’m sure your readers are aware of their triggers now. But would they use this knowledge to avoid the men they are attracted to? Only if what they gain is bigger and I’m pretty sure some of them would just rationalize. “Well I can lie about my sex history if I have to”, hence all is lost.

    I’m pretty sure none of the new divorcees will connect their disappointment in marriage to the fact that they got married because the alphas they were used to, were not longer of use to them. So yeah seed and wait is all what we can do, YMMV.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Abbot and other guys here, I just read a comment on a blog wherein some guy was speculating that Roissy deleted his entire website because he had met a really awesome woman and didn’t want her to read anything that would make her doubt him and possibly ruin his chances at a relationship with her.

    Let me ask you this: lets say you “notched up high numbers” in your sowing wild oats days. Then you reach the stage in life when you are ready to settle down and have a family. You meet a really awesome woman and you fall head over heels in love with her. You don’t want to lose her. However, she’s socially conservative, may or may not be religious, but her convinctions and lifestyle are such that if she knew the extent you engaged in casual sex previously that she would most likely break up with you.

    What would YOU do?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity Congruency

    What would YOU do?

    Be true from moment one, of course.

    Whats the alternative, deception? seems like you are proposing deception. Duh. That will be an awesome marriage.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Exactly, Yohami. How could you lie about something that huge to your life partner? If you can’t say where you’ve been, then you shouldn’t be marrying the person.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @Integrity Congruency

    So you say that if you desire something really badly lying is justified? I can’t even…

  • Integrity Congruency

    OK, fair enough. However what if the topic never came up and she never asked you. Would you VOLUNTEER that information?

  • Abbot

    her convinctions and lifestyle are such that if she knew the extent you engaged in casual sex previously that she would most likely break up with you.

    What would YOU do?
    .
    In the West, that is a man’s ultimate arbitrage. To tag lots of empowerment needy libruls and marry a good woman. Most guys have to use a passport to go between the detritus and the godesses. So the chances of facing such a scenario at home is moot.

  • Mike C

    Abbot and other guys here, I just read a comment on a blog wherein some guy was speculating that Roissy deleted his entire website because he had met a really awesome woman and didn’t want her to read anything that would make her doubt him and possibly ruin his chances at a relationship with her.
    .
    LOL. http://heartiste.wordpress.com/

    Let me ask you this: lets say you “notched up high numbers” in your sowing wild oats days. Then you reach the stage in life when you are ready to settle down and have a family. You meet a really awesome woman and you fall head over heels in love with her. You don’t want to lose her. However, she’s socially conservative, may or may not be religious, but her convinctions and lifestyle are such that if she knew the extent you engaged in casual sex previously that she would most likely break up with you.

    What would YOU do?

    Tell her the truth. If she decides she can’t accept it, then it wasn’t meant to be.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    It would come up, because I would ask her her history.

  • C

    That confirms that there is a clear and severe MAN SHORTAGE for certain “types” of women. To lie is to be desperate. Desperate people lie. What we have here a group of very desperate women totally dependent on men for happiness by any means possible.
    .
    All that is avoidable. Attention ladies – dont be promiscuous.

    Is that some sort of “getting one over” on men strategy that a woman will torture herself with? Do feminists advocate this? What is the life span of “unknowingly?” Do the markers of promiscuous women – mal-parenting, dysfunctional families and psychological damage – actually lead to this type of cold hearted pyschopathic and sociopathic behavior? Seems plausible.

    Desperate? Maybe. But my point was that as much as men worry about this they really have no way of knowing whether or not a woman was promiscuous. I get that most men don’t want promiscuous women, I just think that a lot of men will end up with promiscuous women anyway and be none the wiser.

    I don’t think that anyone should do a lot of sleeping around and I have no idea what feminists would say about it. I just think that there are a lot of men married to or dating women with high numbers who have no idea and that this probably won’t change. The more men put it out there that they don’t like promiscuous women the more women will lie. The average woman certainly isn’t going to give up sexual freedom, or whatever she calls it, in her youth because her potential future husband will be unhappy.

  • Abbot

    Would you VOLUNTEER that information?
    .
    Only if you know her convictions would cause her grief in the future if she found out. No man wants such grief. And there is NO woman shortage so he can be confident in his ability to find another good and gracious woman.
    .
    If anyone treats sex as just some fun thing to do without connecting to the person then there is a sense of wretch, not to mention a higher chance of cheating. Fact is, far more women then men in the West are promiscuous and therefore, far more men then women need to be on guard.

  • C

    How could you lie about something that huge to your life partner? If you can’t say where you’ve been, then you shouldn’t be marrying the person.

    Lying about this is incredibly common. I know a few of my girlfriend’s REAL number and I also know the numbers that they gave their husbands. They seem quite happily married. I don’t think that it is something that people should be doing, but it happens anyway.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    OK, fair enough. However what if the topic never came up and she never asked you. Would you VOLUNTEER that information?

    I don’t see how not to. People talk about sex when they are dating or you know after having sex. No mention of people’s past sounds very odd to me. Is like not mentioning your family or the school you graduated? What is the relationship based on then? What do you talk about? How can you marry a person that you know so little? Unless there is some sort of I don’t want to hear it, don’t talk about agreement and even so a person that is so “private” about his/her past sounds like someone that shouldn’t be considering marriage. Maybe I’m just weird but I don’t believe in dishonest advertising. Marriage is a HUGE step and a person should make that choice with as much information as possible about exactly what they are getting into, YMMV.

  • anonymous

    @ A says:

    Think of it this way. You think a guy should show sexual interest instantly. But did the woman in this friendship make it clear instantly that their relationship was purely platonic and never had a chance of becoming sexual? If not, why should the default assumption be that a friendship has no chance of becoming sexual? Why isn’t she just as guilty of not immediately declaring her intentions?

    Well, I think there’s no expectation of sexual interest because the friendship isn’t treated any differently than if it was with a female.
    I tried to explain why she might freak out, but in no way am I placing all of the blame on the guy. She’s not justified in making it a federal crime simply because a guy showed interest in her. And I do believe that the reason a lot of guys friendzone themselves IS because they’re receiving mixed messages from the girls, even if unintentional.

    As for why this is seen as demonizing men’s sexuality: All men want sex. That doesn’t mean all men are cads, some want sex in a committed, loving relationship, but all men want sex. It’d be one thing if you would assume that a friendship with a man who seems to be happily married to someone else would never become sexual with you. I think men and women can agree on that. But if we’re talking about a man who clearly does not have a wife, a girlfriend, or a sexual relationship (which describes most or all ‘beta orbiters’), you should know he still wants sex. Women might not know this the same way men do, not living their lives drenched in testosterone, but they’ve been told that men want sex so often it’s difficult to imagine how they can not know it, if only second hand. Getting upset that a man is interested in sex comes across as being mad that you could not assume that a man is asexual. Well, men are not asexual, and you should never assume that they are, and it for a sexual being like a man to be thought of as asexual is hurtful.

    As for where men get the idea that “the best way to a romantic relationship is through friendship”, it’s everywhere. It’s hard to believe that people don’t see that.

    Yeah, it’s hurtful to be seen as asexual, but afterall, it is the way he’s presented himself to her.

    Sometimes the media presents us with messages/information that contradict our personal reality. In those cases, the messages are less influential than they would be if we lacked real life examples.

    I’m American of Hispanic descent. Growing up, gender differences were emphasized. In Hispanic culture, men aren’t shamed for wanting sex, in fact, it usually goes to the other extreme.
    Personally, I wouldn’t be *best* friends with a happily married man at all because I don’t have male best friends, but I know other people differ and find it strange.

  • Abbot

    they really have no way of knowing whether or not a woman was promiscuous
    .
    There are lots of slut tells and if a man makes it a priority to not marry a promiscuous woman then he has a much higher probability of not doing so. Its risk management plain and simple.
    .
    The more men put it out there that they don’t like promiscuous women the more women will lie.
    .
    That is very sad for women to live that way, indeed. Too bad for them. Racked with lies and guilt and all because of men. You cant win for losing. Woman cant seem to break away from the shackles men place on them. Weak foundations eventually crash. Go ahead and build something on lies. Let me know how it works out.
    .
    The average woman certainly isn’t going to give up sexual freedom, or whatever she calls it, in her youth because her potential future husband will be unhappy.
    .
    Its called sexually satisfying your oppressors. What a great strategy. Guess a woman dreamed it up. Of course her potential future husband will not be unhappy. The potential for that guy is gone thus he is happy and she will have to settle for someone else, hopefully one of her male Experimentation Agents will cut her some slack and marry her.
    .
    Fuck em now, Lie to them later. Gotta love it. What kind of parents raise daughters like this?

  • Integrity Congruency

    “women totally dependent on men for happiness by any means possible”

    Yeah, you’re right. That’s a problem.

    Abbott, ‘”Only if you know her convictions would cause her grief in the future if she found out. No man wants such grief.”

    That’s the same rationale women use. Glad to see you “get it”.

    “And there is NO woman shortage so he can be confident in his ability to find another good and gracious woman.”

    Thankyou! A man on this blog finally admitted there is no shortage of GOOD and GRACIOUS women!!!

    Yahoo!

    I thought I’d have to turn over in my grave before I saw a comment on here saying something nice about women.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integry,

    OK, fair enough. However what if the topic never came up and she never asked you. Would you VOLUNTEER that information?

    Right. Because past relationships and history never come up.

  • Abbot

    Marriage is a HUGE step and a person should make that choice with as much information as possible about exactly what they are getting into,
    .
    But a woman’s sexual past must not be part of that consideration unless a man embraces it as a positive life building experience according to sex pozzy feminists.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Yohami and Stephanie, yes, oftentimes in serious relationships talks of past relationships come up. But you said it right there, “relationships”. While both men and women talk about their exes and “what went wrong” with their current flames, rarely do they talk about unmemorable one night stands or casual sex encounters.

    The aveage couple knows about the relationship exes of their partner, but not the non-relationship exes.

  • C

    There are lots of slut tells and if a man makes it a priority to not marry a promiscuous woman then he has a much higher probability of not doing so. Its risk management plain and simple.

    Well then a lot of men must be missing them, because a lot of men are married to sluts and I would be surprised if they wanted to be. I doubt that a woman who sleeps around and lies about it is going to feel much guilt about it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity Congruency,

    Right. Because “when did you lose your virginity” “how many people have you been with” and “whats the craziest thing you have ever done” are NEVER brought up in a relationship.

  • Abbot

    ‘”Only if you know her convictions would cause her grief in the future if she found out. No man wants such grief.”

    That’s the same rationale women use. Glad to see you “get it”.
    .
    Nearly ALL, like 99 percent of men have those convictions but FEW women do. So it is NOT the same. Not at all.
    .
    Thankyou! A man on this blog finally admitted there is no shortage of GOOD and GRACIOUS women!!!
    .
    It has been stated on this blog hundreds of times. There is no shortage because SO FEW ARE SLUTS!! Most of the world’s women are NOT feminists either. Men have tremendous options to find exactly what they want. The slight increase in sluts in the West just adds to the variety and makes being single for men more fun. There is a small slut women pile and a HUGE good women pile. Men decide that and men only. Aint life grand?

  • Abbot

    rarely do they talk about unmemorable one night stands or casual sex encounters.
    .
    Read: rarely do woman want to talk about unmemorable one night stands or casual sex encounters.
    .
    Woman have a lot more casual sex then men so they avoid bringing up the topic in the first place. And please, lets not get into how its possible for women to pull that off. Its late and if you want to know, you can actually read this blog which you have not yet done based on your prior comments.

  • Abbot

    Boy, these “new” propagandists keep popping up with all sorts of angles, looking for traps, anything to change the messages influencing female readers. Gotta keep spaying that propagandacide. Seems to work.

  • Integrity Congruency

    “Nearly ALL, like 99 percent of men have those convictions but FEW women do. ”

    99% percent have the conviction that they should lead a sexually chaste life before marriage?

    That’s good to know.

  • Abbot

    99% percent have the conviction that they should lead a sexually chaste life before marriage?
    .
    Define chaste. For once

  • detinennui32

    Integrity: Abbot has the best rejoinder to your scenario: It isn’t likely to happen because a man racking up numbers with bottom feeders is quite unlikely to attract or even be interested in your hypothetical “awesome girl”, nor is awesome girl likely to hook up with this kind of Lothario.

    Also, your scenario isn’t really one at all; it’s merely an elaborate attempt at shaming. Your true message is that it’s OK for women to lie about their sexual pasts and trying to get to that message by convincing men to walk a mile in a slut’s shoes. Your message is really “hey, you men lie about your sex partners too!!” (conveniently forgetting that many men wear their notches as badges of honor).

    But it is not the same because women are supposed to bring chastity to a marriage. Men don’t bring chastity or virginity. They bring their industry and talents so as to protect and provide for a woman. We aren’t there to provide pure bodies. We are there to provide money, labor, resources and brute force if necessary.

    SO your scenario doesn’t work. Epic fail, IC.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Chaste is different from celibate. Chaste would be that you only engage in sexual activity with someone that you are in a committed relationship with. In some cultures any pre-marital sex at all is seen as loose and promiscuous, but I think its safe to say that in our culture, if an adult has just this standard alone, they are so chaste as to almost be considered a virgin or monk, so to speak.

  • Mike C

    detiennui,

    I hope you saw Imnobody’s post. I was going to write something, but I couldn’t possibly say it any better. I’m just a random dude on the Internet, but I really hope it all works out for you for the best. The only thing I’d reiterate is when the time is right you definitely have to bring a strong alpha frame to the discussion. You can’t let the hamster take over the discussion.

  • Abbot

    SO your scenario doesn’t work. Epic fail, IC.
    .
    Its been done before. These makeover commenters change their names and try another approach. Such seething desperation to normalize female promiscuity. The agenda is clear. But what is the motive?

  • Integrity Congruency

    “conveniently forgetting that many men wear their notches as badges of honor”

    FAIL. They wear them as badges of honor in front of other men, NOT women whom they are in love with and want to marry.

    “We aren’t there to provide pure bodies”

    FAIL. If you think in this day and age of rampant STIs, some that do not even show up symptoms yet can render both men and women sterile, (such as HPV the most widespread STI amongst the under 30 set today), that a woman has no concern for the state of bodily purity or lack thereof of a potential future husband and father of her children…… you’ve got another thing comin’!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Integrity

      conveniently forgetting that many men wear their notches as badges of honor

      FAIL. They wear them as badges of honor in front of other men, NOT women whom they are in love with and want to marry.

      A man who has many notches will get considerable attention from new women. Social proof. Many women would love nothing more than to earn love and commitment from a Player.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Ingrity,

    I thought this topic was over for you?

    FAIL. They wear them as badges of honor in front of other men, NOT women whom they are in love with and want to marry.

    You mean a guy who wears his sexual experience with pride, suddenly hides it when he meets a nice girl he would want to marry?

    First, like, who? I cant think of anyone, is that a tendency?

    Second, that would be deception, so, wrong. These marriages will fail.

    Are you proposing deception btw?

  • Abbot

    They wear them as badges of honor in front of other men, NOT women whom they are in love with and want to marry.
    .
    I assumed that every reader understood that. Oh well. Women do NOT wear multi man sex as an honor. Anything that comes easy is not worthy of any feelings of honor. Yes, women get that and therefore do not brag about getting laid. Humans do not value the cheap and easy because, well, its cheap and easy. Men have to work at it. Women just say yes. No value or pride in that by her and by men who evaluate her.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Yohami, that’s a slightly different topic over on another thread where Mike C is trying to beat a dead drum and go tit 4 tat with me when I’ve already articulated my position there a number of times.

    As far as a man hiding his sexual experience, its not a matter of hiding, they just won’t volunteer the information about their casual sex encounters because they don’t mean anything to them. I was involved for 2 years with a man whom wanted to marry me. I knew about his past relationships MTRs (medium term relationships) with a few women because sometimes he would talk about them. Fair enough. So I surmised he may have had sex with 3 women tops. We were from 2 entirely different cities, if I didn’t grow up where he did, attend the same college and then live in the same city he worked in as an adult, and follow him around all the time on top of that, how am I supposed to know his exact number?

    That’s just it. Like C said, there’s no way of knowing for sure.

    Thinking back on it, its very likely that in his 28 years of living he had sex with more than 3 women, isn’t it? Its very likely that he may have had a casual sex encounter from time to time, isn’t it?

    How would I know his exact number? I would anyone know but him?

    This is the way it is.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity,

    How would I know his exact number?

    How about asking?

  • Integrity Congruency

    Abbot, you missed the point of the badge of honor thing. A man who is in love with a woman and wants to marry her is not going to brag about his one night stand notches as badges of honor to her. He would have done that with his male buddies back in the day. However he will talk to her about the previous RELATIONSHIPS his had with women. Therefore C is right. There is no way of knowing someones exact number with 100% certainty. Only they can know that. We can only trust.

  • detinennui32

    Mike C: Thanks. I did see imnobody’s post. And I appreciate the well wishes. The alpha frame will be there. And it will work out for the best.

    IC: You rage about STDs transmitted from men to women. Where’s all that concern for women who are out there slutting it up? Where’s your concern about them being modern day Typhoid Marys sending around HPV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, and herpes?

    I note that you did not respond to my main criticism of your epic FAIL, which is that this is all shaming. Your silence is tantamount to an admission. I pronounce you guilty as charged of shaming. I hereby sentence you to one week of hard education at Susan Walsh’s feet.

  • Abbot

    This is the way it is.
    .
    and that is how women like it. Men not knowing. Because women fuck around A LOT more then men do. In the US. in W Europe. Men really do need to be on guard and learn how to be crafty in how they ask questions. Sluts are in the minority and can be weeded out. Remember, a good woman is a wise woman. A promiscuous women is not wise given her behavior and therefore much easier to extract information from. Learn slut tells. They are mentioned all over this blog.

  • Integrity Congruency

    detinennui32, LOL! You can surmise from my concern about STIs that I am no pimp for promiscuity. There are enough shrill cries on this blog from you men about the dangers and overall horribleness of female promiscuity that it goes without saying. I’m here to rep the other side. Guess what? We women don’t want to get sattled with a dirty dick either.

    Keep it in your pants!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We women don’t want to get sattled with a dirty dick either.

      Keep it in your pants!

      Then don’t! I don’t see what the problem is. It’s true that if you meet someone new in a large city, it’s harder to get a sense of their past if they’re not forthcoming. So filter for guys who are cagey and vague! Spending time with someone tells a lot about who they are, and emotional intimacy should develop and reveal the true nature of a person. If you’re not getting that, don’t commit. There are also many ways of finding out a person’s promiscuous past, including Facebook. I know one woman whose boyfriend is in the dark, and she’s constantly trying to explain away jokes and teasing remarks made by her friends in front of him. Honestly, I do not understand why he hasn’t put 2+2 together – I assume he doesn’t really want to know. That’s his choice. We all have a choice.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity,

    We women don’t want to get sattled with a dirty dick either.

    Then whats your take on the so called double standard? now you´re stating women have the same prejudice.

  • Mike C

    Then whats your take on the so called double standard? now you´re stating women have the same prejudice.
    .
    Yohami, good luck trying to get her to state a consistent, coherent position and stick to it. She is all over the map.

  • Abbot

    There is no way of knowing someones exact number with 100% certainty. Only they can know that. We can only trust.
    .
    Knowing exact numbers is not necessary. Know if your date is a slut is not so hard to figure. There is a list of slut tells mentioned in this blog. Then, the man can decide what pile she goes in. Only men get to determine who is a slut.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Yohami, I already articulated my point a handful of times on this blog and it is CRYSTAL CLEAR.

    Abbot, I dunno about “tell-tale” signs. By the time you meet a potential husband or wife you are usually well past the age of college oat-sowing so I don’t know what tell-tale signs would resurface.

    Take my situation. He was almost 30, settled in a career, clearly wanting to marry and have children, serious minded.

    What tell-tale signs would there have been?

    For all I know he could’ve been the biggest ho on his campus back in the day.

    Many players jones to settle down at some point.

    There’s was just no way of me knowing.

    And besides…. it doesn’t take a dozen to give you HPV, or any other STI.

    Just one!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Take my situation. He was almost 30, settled in a career, clearly wanting to marry and have children, serious minded.

      What tell-tale signs would there have been?

      For all I know he could’ve been the biggest ho on his campus back in the day.

      It’s obvious you haven’t spent time with promiscuous people. Promiscuity is linked to personality traits. If your ex wasn’t extroverted and risk-seeking, he probably wasn’t a manwhore, for starters. There are many other behaviors that men with a great deal of sexual experience display, including sexual knowledge, technique and confidence – coupled with lack of intimacy or bonding during sex. Some of these guys don’t even bother kissing.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity,

    Yohami, I already articulated my point a handful of times on this blog and it is CRYSTAL CLEAR.

    No, its not.

    You are arguing against men not wanting to settle with sluts but giving the sex greencard to themselves.

    Now you just said women do the same?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    And please address this:

    How would I know his exact number?

    How about asking?

  • Integrity Congruency

    Yo, Hami – my position on the entire matter is congruency. Wanna chaste man/woman? Be chaste yourself. I’ve said that again and again. I personally don’t hold a double standard.

    As far as me asking him his exact number, sure I could have. And he may have tweaked it to suit my liking because he really wanted to marry me and have kids. Men do not brag about their notches to women they are in love with. “Yo baby guess wha? I bagged alot of bitches back in da day!”. Um, no. They don’t do that.

    Like C said, there’s no way of knowing 100% for sure. We just observe their current behaviour, take note of when they talk about past relationships, and TRUST.

    His current behaviour gave no indication of a slutty past. But because I did not go to high school or college with him or know him in the post-college/early career period when a man “comes into his own” – I don’t know his exact number.

    Who knows? Maybe it was only the few relationship women that he told me about.

    But regardless of whether he was a slut or not, slept with 3 or 30 people, IT JUST TAKES ONE to give you an STI of serious consequence.

    Remember that the next time you think “he/she only slept with one other person”.

    Now I have to go to sleep have and sweet dreams of all the hunks on HUS.

    ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      my position on the entire matter is congruency. Wanna chaste man/woman? Be chaste yourself. I’ve said that again and again. I personally don’t hold a double standard.

      The double standard has its basis in biology. You’re not going to alter that making your case on this little blog.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity,

    And he may have tweaked it to suit my liking because he really wanted to marry me and have kids.

    So it IS about hiding and deception, not just not volunteering, but straightforward lying when asked about? you keep changing the position

    Like C said, there’s no way of knowing 100% for sure. We just observe their current behaviour, take note of when they talk about past relationships, and TRUST.

    But you were defending not talking about your past? asking what would we do and assuming we would withhold the truth = deception?

    Wanna chaste man/woman? Be chaste yourself.

    Dont see any problems with that? The guys rooting for non sluts for marriage here are not the manwhore type, starting for Abbot, Blues, etc. Jesus is declining love altogether. etc

  • Butterfly Flower

    Yo, Hami – my position on the entire matter is congruency. Wanna chaste man/woman? Be chaste yourself. I’ve said that again and again. I personally don’t hold a double standard.

    I agree. I’m a virgin and my boyfriend is a virgin. He’s never pressured me for sex, he just loves me and honestly enjoys spending time with me.

    I’m sick of men on the blogosphere whining about how they want traditional virgin good girls…while behaving in ways that absolutely repulse traditional virgin good girls. NAWALT; it’s just the women that aren’t like that deserve better than you.

  • MaMu1977

    OK, I’M throwing this out there because I’ve been driving and everyone’s talking around each other.

    At 15, every guy gets a 35-50 year old woman for a sex partner.
    At 14, every girl gets a 30-45 year old male partner.

    Here’s my rationale.
    Teenager girls (mostly) are looking to be treated like princesses (or special snowflakes.-
    Teenager boys just want to stick it in un(for the most part) until the white stuff comes out.

    By gifting teenaged girls with older men (who’ve mostly grown out of sex=I come, I rule), they have partners who are interested in exploring all of their tingle spots. If I’m a good example of a sexually sated male, I can say that the journey is more fun than the destination.

    By gifting teenaged boys with older women (who enjoy hanging out on PUA sites bragging about how they’re horned than ever, etc.) who won’t go “I wasn’t treated like a snowflake during sex, I must have been raped!”, they’re in the presence of females who won’t go alpha-chasing for the one guy who’s able to make them orgasm without foreplay or drinks or sweet lies.

    For the older people, they have the sexual attention of fit, young, nubile (older males who are designed to like fresh meat) and eager to please (older females who appreciate a shorter refractory period) people. On top of that, they can mold the newer generation by example (older guys could pull off the “alpha, but aloof” frame and older women could do the “matron, but still hot” frame.)

    Some changes would have to be made (mandatory fitness to avoid beer guts or “people of Wal-mart” post-natal bloated bodies, sociopaths would have to be weaned out, a 5-year limit for orientation, etc.), but the benefits (from a sociosexual standpoint) would be phenomenal. Potential “I love Edward Cullen/Mr. Darcy/Lexington Steele” women could be matched with their fantasies, horny fuck-monster guys who lust for cheerleaders but have no problem emptying their balls into a MILF or a Serenity fan or a drunk chick at the Frat house can indulge their desires without becoming level 3 sex offenders (I could buy a steak dinner if I had a dollar for every rape accuser I’ve met whose assailant blew a 0.010+ alcohol level after the fact. I’ve literally met dozens of rape by intoxication women who had sex with guys who were blacked out due to alcohol. How can you call a guy who had sex under the influence a rapist when their victim was clean the next day but they had witnesses to prove that they’d drank 9 shots of tequila before they went to the side room, I don’t know.)

    Hot, aloof guys with pre-selection (because a woman was willing to marry them and stuff /sarcasm) for the teenaged girls, horny/last chance for a baby women for the guys (a vas deferens or fallopian tube graft for the older partners would prevent extraneous conception), what could be better. Follow up the informal “rumspringa” sex with a “marry before before 26″ mandate, then allow the people to enter the “orientation” field when the next generation comes of age. I don’t know about anyone else, but having a “loyal” wife for 20 years, handing her off for her 5 years during her “is there anyone better out there?” time, then getting her back (while I enjoy my own “taste of spring”) is far more attractive than the current scenario.

  • Abbot

    what tell-tale signs would resurface
    .
    Slut tells are not tell tale anything. Its a broad hacking used to reduce the chances of a man dedicating his precious life and far more important resources to the wrong woman. Its actually fun to blow slut covers and with time, a man can become quite skilled. The goal is never an “exact number” but rather its to use an ax to hack out high slut probables. Sure, a few good ones may get thrown out with the bath water, but so what.
    .
    This list of slut tells is a good start:
    .
    http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82849
    .
    Sluts have proven, VERY consistently to have a few basic personality traits that can be used to spot a slut before even knowing her phone number.
    .
    1. She talks too much- Women that talk an usual amount are extremely likely to be sluts. These are women that can hold down a 2 hr convo without you saying a damn word.
    .
    2. She lies too much- sluts usually tell a lot of self glorifying lies and are very comfortable doing it. When a slut meets you she wants you to value and treasure her, hence why she fucks you for no reason, but since she’s either a bum, a douche, or an average josephine, she will lie to make herself look better. things to look out for.
    .
    Ppl in her stories, except her, have irrational behaviors that make 0 sense and whos origins are totally unknown. The person might start ‘talking shit’ for no reason, being rude for no reason, abusing her for no reason ext. The antagonist in whore stories usually neglects ration and origin in their actions.
    .
    She always prevails in her stories or is always a victim. Emphasis on always. ALWAYS. one or the other, no mix or inbetween. A slut always gets the upper hand in her lies.
    .
    Her stories go on for too long and are too ‘interesting’. Nobody really has THAT much to say. a whore thinks she does and keeps blabbing about uninteresting stuff that you don’t care about but she thinks you should care about cause she a hoe.
    .
    3. She has little to no female friends- Sluts avoid other girls because they will ridicule her for being a slut, and due to slut behaviors of being more two faced or more envious then the curb, she will eventually get in a fight with any female friend. Sluts will actually, very early on let you know that she doesn’t get along with girls too much or she hates girls. A slut also often can be seen rolling to social events solo, very bizarre for a girl.
    .
    4. She hates gossip- Sluts will constantly emphasis how they hate when ppl are in her ‘business’ or ‘talk shit’. This shit talking is normal for women and since she has more shit to be talked about it explains her lack of female friends.
    .
    5. She makes too much sense- She will usually be easy to get along with and seem ‘cool’ or make sense with her logic. This is an illusion, she knows that men think is cool in a girl and wants you to value her. she’s a slut.
    .
    6. A slut is MORE OFTEN very intelligent- Don’t believe the dumb hoe myth. A dumb hoe might seem to have lapses in logic, but this is cause her of whoremones and explosive sexual appetite not her intelligence. A girl that comes of a male-like intelligent is usually a huge slut. A lot of sluts speak very clearly and articulately, or have mature womanly cadence and vocal tone that further deceives a stiff sporting young sperm philanthropist to think she is cool.
    .
    Add to the above some slut tell questions that can used on a first date that were mentioned on HUS:
    .
    Ask her how much fun college was, if she liked to go out an drink a lot. If she glows with a lot of drinking stories you got a high slut probable. You could be wrong, but so what. Screw and move on.
    .
    Talk about spring break and how much fun that was. If she goes on about being in Cancun…well sir, you got a romper right there. Slut.
    .
    There are a lot more weeder-outers and I know a lot of readers here have a few of their own.

  • Abbot

    you keep changing the position
    .
    She has been doing that for months. Her arguments therefore have no merit. The agenda is to placate female readers and give them confidence that its okay to be a slut as long as you’re a good enough liar and can juggle those lies for your entire married life. Married to a man who would not have married you if he knew the real you. But he is married to someone else, a lying scheming slut bitch. Oh, women have come so far, yep, they will always remake themselves to satisfy men’s desires.

  • Abbot

    Are you proposing deception btw?
    .
    She is not proposing that the female readers here avoid her own promiscuous ways
    .
    She is not proposing that promiscuous women be honest and let men have agency and informed consent
    .
    Therefore, she is proposing that women find their lost souls by sexually satisfying the same small group of men and then deceiving some poor sap into caring for her annually growing slut ass for the rest of her used up aging life.
    .
    She gives sex pozzies a bad name, if thats even possible

  • Abbot

    “women totally dependent on men for happiness by any means possible”
    ___________________

    Yeah, you’re right. That’s a problem.
    .
    No. Its not a problem at all. Men like it that way. Thus, its that way. Women run into misery when they attempt to manipulate the system and it backfires in their faces. Dont deceive men, play by their rules, any you women reading this will be very happy.

  • imnobody

    For all women who have Tom’s position

    First, this topic is getting tiresome and is suffocating all other discussions. Susan would have to change the name of this blog with “Are sluts a good bet for marriage?”. I don’t think this is the goal of this blog. The goal is to advice young women to hook up smart so they end up getting married with a good man.

    Second, Susan has stated his opinion that having a high number is not a good idea. So, if you are young, it pays not to have casual sex: it’s an investment for your future (an investment is a sacrifice that you do now for having better returns in the future). If you already have a high number, you should advice younger women not commit your own mistakes instead of hamster rationalizing that they are not mistakes. The same way I advice young men not to be beta, which I was, and it was a major mistake. And you should be open and honest about your number before getting married lest your marriage is threatened several years down the line (for example, if your husband finds out for other friends).

    Third, men and women are created inequal by God and/or evolution so there are a lot of double standards. Why a man who doesn’t get laid is a loser and a woman who doesn’t get laid is a worthy virgin? Evolutionary psychology explains that. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander does not apply between men and women, because they are different.

    Fourth, as much as some women think words are magic, they aren’t. You can talk and talk and give rationalizations and arguments (whether good or bad). You can write one thousand posts about the topics (Tom is getting close to that number). It would mean nothing. The double standard is rooted in biology and you can’t change it the same way you can’t change it that a straight man is not attracted to young hot women.

    Five, there are hundreds of posts of women trying to convince us, men, that a slut and a non-slut are the same good bet for marriage. How many converts have you done after all these words? How many men have said: “Your arguments have made me change my opinion and now I believe the number is irrelevant when it comes to marriage?”. None. Zero. Nil. This is the proof of this debate being useless for you.

    Six, even if you managed to convince a man that you are right, what difference would it make? You are not mating with the men in HUS. Your sexual life would be the same. Another proof this debate is useless for you.

    Seven, so what are you doing this for? Is it for validation? Is it because you want to hear that your “rich” sexual history does not hinder your mating prospects? You won’t achieve any validation for men here. Trying to get validation for female sexual promiscuity in HUS, it is like trying to get validation for belief in God in an atheist congress. It is really silly.

    But if you want validation, why don’t you go to Feministing or Jezebel? They will tell you that sluts are great and that men prefer women with a high number because they are more interesting inside bed and outside bed? Why waste your energies here? Why are you making waste our energies too?

    In summary, I don’t see this debate going anywhere. I see the same arguments repeated and repeated. I see all the people standing in the same positions as when the debate started. When all things have been said once and again, when the debate is going in circles and suffocating the blog, it is time to move on.

  • Butterfly Flower

    The double standard has its basis in biology. You’re not going to alter that making your case on this little blog.

    But good girls will not pursue manwhores or promiscuous men, end of story. They’re not impressed by high partner counts, they’re disgusted.

    & since I appear to be the token good girl virgin on this blog, I’m going to say that I think a large majority of the guys here sound like bitter jerks. From my perspective, they’re just not LTR material.

    Also, I’m sick of guys here going on about how they’re such a catch, while making awful and mean generalizations about women.

    I think I’m going to make a blog and point out all of the reasons why blogosphere guys can’t find decent significant others.

  • tito

    Susan said: “The double standard has its basis in biology.”

    got that folks? BIOLOGY. oh how the trendies must bristle at sound of this evil word!

  • tito

    “Many women would love nothing more than to earn love and commitment from a Player.”

    hahahaha! the pathetic truth ladies. it is funny is it not? ha!

  • Blues

    But good girls will not pursue manwhores or promiscuous men, end of story. They’re not impressed by high partner counts, they’re disgusted.

    & since I appear to be the token good girl virgin on this blog, I’m going to say that I think a large majority of the guys here sound like bitter jerks. From my perspective, they’re just not LTR material.

    Knowing what you want and avoiding players is something i commend you for with complete honesty, but at the same time i have to say you’re the exception not the rule, BF.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    tito

    If that is true, then why not kick the girl out and enjoy cooking and eating by yourself? you did to impress her. It is all about affecting the attitude. You care.

    Did you miss this part of my comment?
    “…I like to share the things I enjoy with others.”

    Yes, I care. That’s not the same as trying to impress. When I make dinner for my younger cousins, it’s not because I’m trying to impress them. It’s the same when I cook for a girl. I’ve done cool things that impress people. I did them for my own enjoyment, not because they would later impress people.

  • Abbot

    Many women would love nothing more than to earn love and commitment from a Player.”
    .
    Well of course. A Player’s successful efforts represent desired masculinity, not necessarily sexual availability. A Slut’s actions do not represent desired femininity, always sexual availability.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    But good girls will not pursue manwhores…

    True

    …or promiscuous men, end of story. They’re not impressed by high partner counts, they’re disgusted.

    False

    A man with the ability to bed many attractive girls is desired by other girls. It is only the man who sleeps with unattractive and or fat girls who becomes disgusting to other girls.
    Girls who say they are disgusted by men who are able to seduce many attractive girls are usually rather plain themselves. They claim disgust as a defense mechanism; desirable men will never pursue these plain girls.

    since I appear to be the token good girl virgin on this blog, I’m going to say that I think a large majority of the guys here sound like bitter jerks. From my perspective, they’re just not LTR material.

    A desirable man wants a girl who is relatively chaste and hot, in addition to being feminine and having a good personality. If we define good girl = chaste, then that is not a sufficient condition to get an alpha male for more than a night.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kane

      Girls who say they are disgusted by men who are able to seduce many attractive girls are usually rather plain themselves. They claim disgust as a defense mechanism; desirable men will never pursue these plain girls.

      Kane, you’re new here, but I would qualify this statement. Girls are extremely attracted to men who are able to seduce many women. However, they are repulsed by men who are not discriminating in their choice of partner, as evidenced by high partner count. It doesn’t matter if all of them have been beauties, which is highly unlikely – it’s the fact that men will go with so many promiscuous women that makes them “dirty” – or as I heard one woman recently describe it – trash dick.

  • brightstormyday

    Maybe I’m speaking from my own perspective, but a partner count in the double digits for men or women is disgusting. Granted, society might be a little less forgiving towards a woman with a partner count of 10 vs. a man with a partnercount of 10, but I’d still find it disgusting. I don’t know if I could marry a man with a partnercount that high.

    But realistically speaking, a man with a high partnercount would only make me question if he’s faithful, if he’ll stick around (since he’s so good at emotionless sex, then what’s the guarantee that he’ll stick around?) etc. And for those of you saying,”Fidelity doesn’t matter to women, blahblahblah.” yes, fidelity does matter. Fidelity matters if you want to start a family. I’ve had friends literally traumatized because they found out their fathers had been cheating on their mothers. I’ve seen families ripped apart over it. Even if a divorce doesn’t follow it, the kids generally hate their fathers. And cheaters die alone. My abuelo was a cheater and a player. And he died alone last year. I don’t even think he had a funeral, and if he did, oh well, my family didn’t give a crap.

    On top of that, a man with a high partnercount has no impulse control. He has no morals. It isn’t a sign of him being attractive because I know guys who limit sex to relationships or are waiting until marriage and literally have girls throwing themselves at them. Ideally a guy who could attract lots of women but is sexually restrained would be best. Because then you know that if he says,”I love you,” he means it, and he’s not just talking about sex but about everything that is a relationship.

    And there’s no bigger turnoff to me than finding out that a guy has been sleeping with someone I know. I just can’t date someone who’s slept with/is sleeping with a girl I know. It’s weird and gross.

  • brightstormyday

    Oh, and in response to the,”Girls who hate players are plain janes who don’t get their attention,” comment by Kane…

    I was asked to be a player’s gf my freshman year of college. I turned down because I knew he would cheat. It was a guarantee. And I was in no condition, actually, I’ll never be in any condition to tolerate that. I’ve seen what players do to families and how badly they damage girls. It’s not the plain janes, it’s the girls with decent family upbringings that won’t waste their time with players, because they have fathers that set examples for them and teach them self respect. I’ve seen sweet but naive girls literally go insane over players. The funny thing is, you guys will say,”She’s the rule.” But the one girl that comes to mind is being played by a guy that first got rejected by me, then by another girl in our group before he went to her. So she’s not even his first pick in the group. (Not saying I’m his first pick. He’s a sleaze so, judging by his behavior, he’s probably been around a lot. Assuming every girl he gets with is girl number 3 or 4, he’s probably tried his sleaze tactics with hundreds of girls.) She’s just the girl who fell for his crap. And it’s sad because she’s wasting years on a guy that won’t commit to her. Yes, she’s technically “faithful.” She won’t see anyone else. But they’re not in a relationship and he doesn’t see her as anything more than a hole. If she does break out of it and get married one day, I feel terrible for her husband. She’s the prime example of a girl that will fantasize about all her past lovers that she couldn’t extract commitment from and hate the man she’s married to.

    Betches love this site is brutally honest about girls like these. While I don’t necessarily agree with the lifestyle these girls have ( the anorexia jokes and drug use and blatant manipulation of human beings kind of bother me…) I do acknowledge that they are being honest. And some posts are spot on. This is one of them.

    There is nothing more annoying than a delusional girl that believes she’s in a relationship with a player when she isn’t, because he texts her at 2 am for a booty call. “I could tell from how he said, “i want 2 fuk,” that he loves me!” I’m pretty sure Karen Owens may have been one of these girls. Fifty people can tell them that they’re deluded, wrong, and wasting their time, and they will still “listen to their heart.” Or their tingles. Whichever one. I generally notice that these girls might lack a father figure or might not feel like he loves them. It’s this desire for male validation that drives them to do what they do. And it’s so frustrating because some of them are really good people wasting their time on people not worth it.

  • Butterfly Flower

    False

    A man with the ability to bed many attractive girls is desired by other girls. It is only the man who sleeps with unattractive and or fat girls who becomes disgusting to other girls.
    Girls who say they are disgusted by men who are able to seduce many attractive girls are usually rather plain themselves. They claim disgust as a defense mechanism; desirable men will never pursue these plain girls.

    Ahem, I used to be a model *offended you dismissed my post because you think I’m ugly*

    I think guys here just refuse to believe pretty chaste girls still exist. Alternatively, their egos are bruised because a pretty chaste girl just told them she thinks they’re not LTR material and is disgusted by their behavior.

    So I’m gonna go wander back into the magical forest. Apparently I’m some kind-of mythological creature.

  • Clarence

    As someone who has Butterfly Flower on his Facebook, I will say that in my opinion she is cute and eminently “bangable”.

    I really wish people would lay off lame personal attacks on both sides of this issue.

  • http://www.yahoo.com Renton

    Abbot,

    Please answer this one. How does a guy go about finding out a girl’s past in a way that doesn’t trigger her deception?

    In a slim chance I get so far as testing a girl for long term, how do I assess whether she’s hiding a promiscuous past?

    Girls lie, but if they lie from the get go about their past, how the fuck is that an honest marriage? Weak foundation leads to divorce. Fuck that.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Now I have to go to sleep have and sweet dreams of all the hunks on HUS.”

    Don’t get too full of yourself. Based on the (few) guys I’ve met through the manosphere, and (more) guys from my personal life I’ve turned on to the scene, there’s an enormous amount of good men not making it in the SMP, for small correctable reasons that if fixed would turn them into poon-slayers or eligible bachelors of the first order.

    They’ve just been lousy/unlucky in the marketplace – either for particular bad traits/lame game, or because they got burned at one point or another and haven’t figured how to get back on the horse.

  • brightstormyday

    @Badger:

    I agree with you. While some people seem really bitter and unpleasant in the sphere, I’ve met some funny and interesting individuals and genuinely wondered why they weren’t successful. Maybe they just freeze up when they meet a girl IRL.

  • OffTheCuff

    Welcome back, Plain Jane. We didn’t miss you, but the trolls are really keeping the comment count up.

  • Mike C

    Welcome back, Plain Jane. We didn’t miss you, but the trolls are really keeping the comment count up.
    .
    Aha…that one slipped past me. So IC is Plain Jane. That explains the incoherent babbling.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Aha…that one slipped past me. So IC is Plain Jane. That explains the incoherent babbling.

      It’s a different IP address, different city, same state. Hard to say. Maybe Plain Jane is on vacation. However, PJ has some “tells” in her speech patterns and they’ve not shown up here. Also, no talk of India so far… the jury’s still out. Their general manner of debate is very similar, I agree.

  • OffTheCuff

    One disturbing trend I’ve been reading is the attempted redefinition of the words “congruency” and “hypocrite” to include double-standards, instead of what it really means: making your external actions match your internal feelings, and not doing what you say you believe in.

    Being a hypocrite is professing to believe or do one thing, but in actuality doing a different thing. That would be like a player saying “promiscuity is a sin, nobody should do it” while going around banging lots of women.

    If such a guy says “I expect women to have low partner counts, otherwise I won’t date them” or “I find women with high counts gross” or “I want to marry virgin” then is totally congruent if that’s what he believes, even if it unfair, unlikely, or a double-standard.

    (This is why I don’t go to church anymore, actual, real hypocrisy. Publicly stating a belief and then consistently doing the opposite. The stories about known players being in churches, and women knowing about it, accepting it, and even liking it. If there’s any bigger reason why church is a horrible total mindfuck, I don’t know it.)

  • Matt C

    But good girls will not pursue manwhores or promiscuous men, end of story. They’re not impressed by high partner counts, they’re disgusted.

    Good girls end up with players all the time. I have seen it happen. Actually, good girls end up with players MOST of the time.

    & since I appear to be the token good girl virgin on this blog, I’m going to say that I think a large majority of the guys here sound like bitter jerks. From my perspective, they’re just not LTR material.

    Also, I’m sick of guys here going on about how they’re such a catch, while making awful and mean generalizations about women.

    I think I’m going to make a blog and point out all of the reasons why blogosphere guys can’t find decent significant others.

    You are a hypocrite.

    Bitter jerks? A lot of them are just sharing their feelings of what it was like to live under a ruse for years. Some sound truly bitter, but they are in the minority.

    They make “mean” generalizations about sluts. Just like you made mean generalizations about men you “don’t like”.

    Are these reasons essentially going to be: negative opinion’s men have about women? Seriously, no one is perfect, not even you.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Haven’t read all the comments but if this, ”Girls who hate players are plain janes who don’t get their attention,” was a dig at me, you’ve pegged me wrong.

    Who hates players? Many of them are hot hunks with, ahem, “a lot to offer”.
    They are perfect for booty calls and friends with benefits when a woman is horny but not ready to settle down. Just make sure you go the double condom route with these guys just in case.

    Don’t hate the player, hate the game. And usually those who “hate the game” don’t know how to play it.

    Which brings us back to the point of the Manosphere. I’ve noticed that the woman-haters are unsuccessful with women. Even in cultures where the sexes are much more segregated than here and premarital sex is a taboo, the men who like women are the ones who have good relationships with them, the women in their families, women at school, at work. These are usually at least average looking guys but tend toward the handsome, personable, nice, and otherwise just easy and fun to be around. You never hear these types bitching about women.

    Radical MRAs tend to be losers with women. It may also be that radical WRAs tend to be losers with men.

    Try not to let them influence the rest of us.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Love is blind. God is love. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore Stevie Wonder is God.

    Once someone told me I was nobody. Nobody is perfect. Then, I’m perfect. But only God is perfect. Then I’m God. God is Stevie Wonder. Therefore I’m Stevie Wonder. Oh my f*ck I’m blind!

  • Integrity Congruency

    ” If your ex wasn’t extroverted and risk-seeking, he probably wasn’t a manwhore, for starters.”

    He didn’t even like swimming out to the deep waters at the beach. Extroverted? He was very friendly and personable with people. People liked him. Never had a problem making friends wherever we went. I don’t know if that counts as extroverted or not.

    As far as this risk taking thing, I love adventures and doing new things, especially out in the wild of nature. I’ve packed up and flown to the other side of the world on a whim and ended up spending over a year there, in a place I had never been and had no contacts. I wonder if that makes me “risk taking”?

    Anyway, this guy might not have been a manwhore. He was very eager to get married and have kids and he did just that after I broked up with him. He’s a stay-at-home dad now, and though I can’t know for sure, I’m thinking he probably loves it because he was very good with kids like his nieces and nephews.

    So, yes, I would classify him as a “domesticated nice guy” but he did have a very high sex drive. Daily sex was important to him.

    The reason I’m questioning his number count now is that since breaking up with him I have discovered that the part of the country he came from is known worldwide for promiscuity, SATC, AND he is from a demographic that has a high rate of STDs.

    These facts were not known to me when I had met him as at that time I was not online and reading all sorts of horrid “facts”.

    Had I had found these websites before I met him, I would have marched him down to the health clinic for testing before I even kissed him.

    The online manosphere and femosphere has me paranoid now about all sorts of things.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Some dude: “conveniently forgetting that many men wear their notches as badges of honor”

    Me: “FAIL. They wear them as badges of honor in front of other men, NOT women whom they are in love with and want to marry.”

    Susan: “A man who has many notches will get considerable attention from new women. Social proof. Many women would love nothing more than to earn love and commitment from a Player.”

    Susan, this is being disingenuous. You know darn well that a man who is in love with a woman and wants to marry her is NOT going to brag about his previous casual sex notches to her as if she were one of the guys.

    A “new woman”, such as I was, is not going to know whether or not this new guy has notches. And if he did say, “yo baby I bagged a lot of bitches back in da day” that is NOT social proof to a woman who is serious about settling down and creating a life with him.

    You seem to be stuck in the college scene where hormonally charged, horny teens and early 20 somethings are clustered together in a small, enclosed environment and know each other’s business and compete with each other for campus popularity – “stud” and “hottie”.

    They are a minority.

    The rest of us are grown people way past that stage.

    Please adjust for this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Integrity Congruency

      You seem to be stuck in the college scene where hormonally charged, horny teens and early 20 somethings are clustered together in a small, enclosed environment and know each other’s business and compete with each other for campus popularity – “stud” and “hottie”.

      They are a minority.

      The rest of us are grown people way past that stage.

      Please adjust for this.

      The arrogance of this remark is astounding. I have to agree with Mike C – you’re rambling in an incoherent fashion, and don’t appear up to debating these issues. For you to tell me how to write this blog is beyond hilarious.

  • Butterfly Flower

    You are a hypocrite.

    Bitter jerks? A lot of them are just sharing their feelings of what it was like to live under a ruse for years. Some sound truly bitter, but they are in the minority.

    They make “mean” generalizations about sluts. Just like you made mean generalizations about men you “don’t like”.

    But so many guys on the blogosphere think “All Women Are Like That”. So what they’re really doing is making mean generalizations about all women.

    You know how many times I’ve been told on the blogosphere how I chase Alpha’s and can’t wait to marry my boyfriend just to divorce him? Heck, I’ve been called a troll for saying I’m a virgin. Apparently 19 year old virgins don’t exist these days.

    I spent forever trying to pursue Beta-ish guys IRL, but they always seemed to have weird hang-ups. Sometimes I wonder if they were bitter and looked at me and thought “bitchy whore” and purposely pushed me away.

    My boyfriend is a loyal Alpha who loves me and is a whole lot nicer than most Betas. I think guys here need to realize when a woman rejects you, it’s not always because she has high standards or was brainwashed by feminism.

  • tito

    “Good girls end up with players all the time. I have seen it happen. Actually, good girls end up with players MOST of the time.”

    true. and they are the lamest of all. heaven spare us from the good, lol. this way their recessive good genes lose out when they breed the vermin’s spawn who later destroy society. that’s “good” is it not?

  • tito

    @Kane

    oh please chief! it’s OK to admit you care. roissy won’t find out and call you i beta lol. caring doesn’t make you a pussy i promise.

  • Integrity Congruency

    “At 15, every guy gets a 35-50 year old woman for a sex partner.
    At 14, every girl gets a 30-45 year old male partner.”

    Mamu, what is your plan to get their parents on board with this?

  • Integrity Congruency

    “You know how many times I’ve been told on the blogosphere how I chase Alpha’s and can’t wait to marry my boyfriend just to divorce him? Heck, I’ve been called a troll for saying I’m a virgin. Apparently 19 year old virgins don’t exist these days.”

    Butterfly, I think its because these blogs are dominated by high school and college aged people AND grown adults who have never recovered from high school and college.

    Have you ever met a 30 year old grown ass man who keeps bringing his high school or college days up in conversations? Either in a positive or negative way? I don’t get it. Does life begin and end with college?

    If so that’s very, very sad. The best times of my life did not happen until well after college when I was out in the real world going to interesting places, meeting interesting ADULTS and learning interesting things. I barely even remember college and high school? FORGEDABOUTIT.

    Its as if these people are stunted in their growth at 17 or 20 and never grow beyond that.

    Sure, hot cheerleaders chase popular football studs in high school and the rest of the unpopular average girls fantasize about them while they masterbate.

    SO WHAT?

    If you’re 30, get a new life.

  • Matt T

    Susan, this is being disingenuous. You know darn well that a man who is in love with a woman and wants to marry her is NOT going to brag about his previous casual sex notches to her as if she were one of the guys.

    A “new woman”, such as I was, is not going to know whether or not this new guy has notches. And if he did say, “yo baby I bagged a lot of bitches back in da day” that is NOT social proof to a woman who is serious about settling down and creating a life with him.

    Susan is right.

    No sane man will go up to a girl and tell her “chicks dig me”. But as studies have shown, women value pre-selected men.

    You know how many times I’ve been told on the blogosphere how I chase Alpha’s and can’t wait to marry my boyfriend just to divorce him? Heck, I’ve been called a troll for saying I’m a virgin. Apparently 19 year old virgins don’t exist these days.

    Tbh, if you’re still a virgin and your boyfriend is putting up with that, he’s not an alpha. Alphas have options, and they aren’t willing to wait for months on end.

  • Matt C

    I spent forever trying to pursue Beta-ish guys IRL, but they always seemed to have weird hang-ups. Sometimes I wonder if they were bitter and looked at me and thought “bitchy whore” and purposely pushed me away.

    No, they are shy or insecure or a combination of both.

    true. and they are the lamest of all. heaven spare us from the good, lol. this way their recessive good genes lose out when they breed the vermin’s spawn who later destroy society. that’s “good” is it not?

    A lot of “players” are actually good people.

    Have you ever met a 30 year old grown ass man who keeps bringing his high school or college days up in conversations? Either in a positive or negative way? I don’t get it. Does life begin and end with college?

    A lot of people go to school until they are 22-24. So what your saying is, a guy can’t talk about 4/5th’s of his life?!?!??

  • Butterfly Flower

    Tbh, if you’re still a virgin and your boyfriend is putting up with that, he’s not an alpha. Alphas have options, and they aren’t willing to wait for months on end.

    He’s a devout Christian. Sure he gets frustrated sometimes, but he won’t pressure me. He genuinely doesn’t want to engage in premarital sex.

    Not all Alphas lack self-control.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Alright, there’s a C, a Mike C, a Matt C and now a Matt T on this blog?

    “No sane man will go up to a girl and tell her “chicks dig me”. But as studies have shown, women value pre-selected men.”

    Apples and oranges, my friend. If a man is 40 and never had even 1 relationship with a woman, yeah, that looks suspicious. That’s a far cry from insisting that men will brag about their previous 1-night-stand notches to the woman they love and want to marry, as if she were one of his beer buddies, and that the woman who is contemplating having his future babies will consider his bragging about “bagging bitches” and “racking up notches” as positive social proof of his marriage and fatherhood potential.

    I’ll just give you the benefit of the doubt that you had not read all of the previous comments on this topic and therefore you aren’t that daft.

  • Integrity Congruency

    “A lot of people go to school until they are 22-24. So what your saying is, a guy can’t talk about 4/5th’s of his life?!?!??”

    Not unless its interesting.

    Talk about your family, teachers and professors who infused you with a thirst for knowledge, the year you went abroad on international exchange and experienced a way of life drastically different from the one you were brought up in, or how your best friend risked her life to save your’s on a boat in the middle of the sea.

    Nobody cares about your drinking escapades or how popular or unpopular you were. Get over it and move on.

  • Butterfly Flower

    No, they are shy or insecure or a combination of both.

    I’m not telepathic.

    So when a guy’s behavior implies he doesn’t like me, I assume he doesn’t like me. If a guy pushes me away or ignores blatant IOIs, I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

  • http://societalricochet.blogspot.com/ Anathema

    I read your blog often and enjoy it but I was confused and saddened by this post, maybe I misread what you meant or I’m just not as knowledgeable about what feminists are preaching these days but it seems you took SlutWalk way out of context. I ranted here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anathema
      Thanks for your comment. I believe that SlutWalks have veered way off the mark. They did start as a statement to say that no woman deserves to be raped regardless of what she’s wearing. I agree with this statement although I also believe women should be prudent in their behavior to keep themselves safe. In any case, the SlutWalks have morphed into a general celebration of sluthood – that was certainly the case when Jaclyn Friedman spoke at the Boston event and urged everyone present to scream “We are sluts, we are sluts!”

      Rebecca Traister acknowledges this problem in her article, but backs down from outright condemnation of her sex-positive feminist sisters. That’s either political correctness or muddy thinking, in my view.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    Butterfly Flower,

    He’s a devout Christian. Sure he gets frustrated sometimes, but he won’t pressure me. He genuinely doesn’t want to engage in premarital sex.

    Not all Alphas lack self-control.

    Thank.You.

  • Guestopher

    Hmm, I agree with Integrity Congruency that a man isn’t viewed as attractive because he’s sleeping with a bunch of women. It’s attractive women hanging around him and wanting to have his babies that makes him attractive to other women. Obviously there’s a very strong correlation between having a lot of flirtatious attention from attractive women and having slept with a lot of attractive women. It’s a really big deal to get into a relationship with a guy like this; most women aren’t going to disqualify him just because he took advantage of his status and slept with lots of attractive women. However these guys can and do disqualify women for having a high partner count. Even a guy who is a 7 doesn’t have to settle for a 5 with a high partner count. And we’re back to Slut Walks.

  • Integrity Congruency

    For an example of why I became concerned about my ex-partners numbers AFTER we broke up instead of before (when I took him at his world), please read this:

    http://homespunwisdom.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/skyrocketing-hiv-infection-rates-amongst-black-women-cant-all-be-blamed-on-the-thugs-or-those-on-the-dl/

    Since breaking up with him and buying my own computer I have become exposed to a lot of data that I was not previously exposed to. I simply didn’t know the HIV rates of his demographic, nor was I aware that NYC was a hotbed of wanton promiscuity, which is claimed by the anti-SATC brigade. I wasn’t even aware of SATC at the time as I’ve always preferred pro-actively living life to watching TV.

    Only after learning about all this stuff did I start to doubt his number. But even if his number was low, or just 1, that doesn’t say anything about whether or not he was carrrying an STD.

    After getting online I’m much, much more wary of everybody I meet.

  • Matt C

    I’m not telepathic.

    So when a guy’s behavior implies he doesn’t like me, I assume he doesn’t like me. If a guy pushes me away or ignores blatant IOIs, I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

    I’m not saying you have to be. I just didn’t like how you put your thoughts into other people’s heads.

    Sometimes I wonder if they were bitter and looked at me and thought “bitchy whore” and purposely pushed me away.

    They probably were thinking: “I wonder if this girl likes me. I don’t want to risk rejection, safer to push her away then try and risk getting hurt.”

  • Butterfly Flower

    They probably were thinking: “I wonder if this girl likes me. I don’t want to risk rejection, safer to push her away then try and risk getting hurt.”

    …did you think I wasn’t hurt when they pushed me away?

    I spent forever [err, 2 years] chasing quiet Beta-ish guys who didn’t want anything to do with me.

    I really liked this one [former] guyfriend; I dragged him to a few movies, I hugged him and held his hand. Instead of trying to start a relationship, he began ignoring me. Either I scared him off by being too forward, or he wasn’t interested in me and didn’t have the guts to say so.

    I assumed he didn’t like me so I moved on…to another quiet Beta-ish guy who pretty much did the exact same thing!

    I think many Betas are single because they push away every girl that comes their way.

  • Blues

    He’s a devout Christian. Sure he gets frustrated sometimes, but he won’t pressure me. He genuinely doesn’t want to engage in premarital sex.

    I think you mean he won’t (mostly because you won’t) but he sure as hell wants or else he wouldn’t get frustrated.

    Not all Alphas lack self-control.

    Who said Alphas lack self control?

    For an example of why I became concerned about my ex-partners numbers AFTER we broke up instead of before (when I took him at his world), please read this:

    http://homespunwisdom.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/skyrocketing-hiv-infection-rates-amongst-black-women-cant-all-be-blamed-on-the-thugs-or-those-on-the-dl/

    Since breaking up with him and buying my own computer I have become exposed to a lot of data that I was not previously exposed to. I simply didn’t know the HIV rates of his demographic, nor was I aware that NYC was a hotbed of wanton promiscuity, which is claimed by the anti-SATC brigade. I wasn’t even aware of SATC at the time as I’ve always preferred pro-actively living life to watching TV.

    LOL, this explains a lot, reading that blog for men advice is like looking for sanity in a mental asylum, here, the BS properly debunked.

    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/70270

    And also a little bit of info on your “counselor”:

    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/70020
    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/69058

    Might wanna consider switching advisers.

    EDIT: don’t delete this comment, i hit the request deletion button accidentally

  • Integrity Congruency

    “I think many Betas are single because they push away every girl that comes their way.”

    Some are geuninely afraid of women. But the guys you were dealing with were quit young. Sometimes males don’t come into their sexuality til later, and some have low libidos and just want to be friends. OR they were not physically attracted to you, even if you’re “cute”.

    I know a few virgin beta guys who aren’t that much to look at themselves who nonetheless have ridiculously high “standards” (code word for fantasies) wrt women’s looks. There OCD and aspergers makes it so they minutely analyse every little feature instead of looking at the overall big picture and how it fits together.

    They’re the types that will fixate on a tiny flaw. Weird.

    I expect them to be virgins well into their 30s. One is already 27.

  • tito

    @Butterfly Flower

    sorry to hear of your plight. i hope you have better luck in the future. in the meantime, keep at those guys because they need to be motivated by you for the sake of civilization.

  • Matt C

    …did you think I wasn’t hurt when they pushed me away?

    I spent forever [err, 2 years] chasing quiet Beta-ish guys who didn’t want anything to do with me.

    I really liked this one [former] guyfriend; I dragged him to a few movies, I hugged him and held his hand. Instead of trying to start a relationship, he began ignoring me. Either I scared him off by being too forward, or he wasn’t interested in me and didn’t have the guts to say so.

    I assumed he didn’t like me so I moved on…to another quiet Beta-ish guy who pretty much did the exact same thing!

    I think many Betas are single because they push away every girl that comes their way.

    It’s okay to be hurt.

    They are single because they are afraid. Pushing away the girl (aka you) are their outwards representation of fear. They are afraid of getting hurt. They are afraid of opening up. Because, get this, if they open up to you, you will be able to hurt them emotionally. They don’t want to risk that. I’d make a bet that they weren’t even doing it fully consciously either.

    Also, how are they betas if you were attracted to them? Interesting conundrum here. Maybe things aren’t as black and white as alpha/beta.

    I know a few virgin beta guys who aren’t that much to look at themselves who nonetheless have ridiculously high “standards” (code word for fantasies) wrt women’s looks. There OCD and aspergers makes it so they minutely analyse every little feature instead of looking at the overall big picture and how it fits together.

    The “high standards” is how they backwards rationalize their fear to approach women.

    “I’m afraid to approach attractive women. It must be because they are not attractive enough for me to want to approach them.”

    Ironically this leads to a situation where they approach NO women.

  • http://sweetebonyrose.livejournal.com/ Renee

    Butterfly Flower,
    Don’t feel odd, if you’re a mythological creature, then I must be not of this earth lol (analogy wise this was the best I could do lol). 27 and a virgin here for a few reasons that I won’t take the time here to explain, unless someone asks.

    Kane,

    False

    A man with the ability to bed many attractive girls is desired by other girls. It is only the man who sleeps with unattractive and or fat girls who becomes disgusting to other girls.
    Girls who say they are disgusted by men who are able to seduce many attractive girls are usually rather plain themselves. They claim disgust as a defense mechanism; desirable men will never pursue these plain girls.

    Well I can understand females being disgusted. I’m sure that there are ladies that wouldn’t want a certain male organ that has been in many cavities to get inside them. You don’t know where he has been. And really it’s not about being able to bed women or being attractive to other women. It’s based on HIMSELF: his looks, personality, aura. etc.

  • Abbot

    How does a guy go about finding out a girl’s past in a way that doesn’t trigger her deception?
    .
    Well, its best to not to be in the company of woman you find necessary to question in the first place. Sluts and feminists are a teeny tiny minute percentage of women on the plant. They are raunchy vocal bunch so it may seem like there are more, especially in certain cities. Dont be concerned about triggering her deception because if she reacts, that is also a slut tell. Good and Gracious women would probably not even pick up on it. Get her to tell stories about her adventures as they were fun and memorable and she will tell the tales as she has to her girlfriends. Of course, she may leave holes in the story line and that you should be able to pick up on. The more that drinking alcohol comes up is a big red flag. Frequent nightclub attendance, frat parties, spring breaks. Wife material women dont attend Burning Man events. Ask.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Matt,

    Also, how are they betas if you were attracted to them? Interesting conundrum here. Maybe things aren’t as black and white as alpha/beta.

    Personal preference. He had something she liked / she liked some aspects of him. I got girls interested on me even when I was back in omega phase, and then in beta phase I had a few girlfriends. Lots of betas get married etc.

    So, the frame multiplies your inborn qualities, positively or negatively, making you highly attractive or unattractive, but theres always a bunch of stuff in you that can be attractive for the right person. Its a matter of how the other person screens and perceives you.

  • Abbot

    good girls end up with players MOST of the time.
    .
    Because they know sluts first hand and if that aint a reason not to marry one…

  • Integrity Congruency

    ” Wife material women dont attend Burning Man events.”

    Burning Man has changed over the years. It started out for creative and nerdy people to display art. You had a lot of alternative lifestyle types there like people who live off their own land hunting and gathering with their own hands (a lot of gathering, vegan raw food types), people who live in tree-houses, gypsy homeschooler, etc and just regular artsy and creative folk both young and old.

    The point was to live for a week (or a few days) in the desert in a self-sustaining, collective and MONEY FREE way.

    Now its morphed into what EVERYTHING in the United States eventually morphs into, commercialization, corporatism and overall tackiness. Thus it is increasingly attractive to mainstream types who come there to “duuuuuuude, lets go to Burning Man this weekend and see if we can get laid”.

  • Abbot

    it seems you took SlutWalk way out of context.
    .
    How’s this: slut—-walks. It will be taken out of context at will and with gusto. Deal with it.

  • Abbot

    come there to “duuuuuuude, lets go to Burning Man this weekend and see if we can get laid”.
    .
    Then what a great slut tell. Thank you.

  • Integrity Congruency

    And lets not forget the religious cultists who go to Burning Man to preach and proselytize like the Hare Krishnas and assorted Jesus Freaks.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Also, how are they betas if you were attracted to them? Interesting conundrum here. Maybe things aren’t as black and white as alpha/beta.

    I’ve personally noticed that Betas are just as handsome as their Alpha counterparts. Heck, Alphas are often less handsome than their Beta counterparts. They’re male butterfaces; ripped body but not much else going for them in the looks department. A good example of this would be The Situation from The Jersey Shore. Sure, he has nice muscles – but I don’t think many girls want to spend a lot of time staring at his face.

    Unless all the Betas on the blogosphere are grotesque cave dwelling troll monsters, girls are checking blogosphere Betas out.

    “He has a cute butt!” “That Donkey Kong graphic T is adorable!” “…I bet he already has a girlfriend.”

    Betas don’t really need all that much Game; all they have to do is open their eyes and notice the women already interested in them.

    I also wouldn’t recommend too much Game because a lot of the advice only works on women who date jerks because they get off on the drama. “How to make a crazy chick’s panties wet” probably isn’t the best long term strategy.

  • Blues

    Unless all the Betas on the blogosphere are grotesque cave dwelling troll monsters, girls are checking blogosphere Betas out.

    “He has a cute butt!” “That Donkey Kong graphic T is adorable!” “…I bet he already has a girlfriend.”

    Betas don’t really need all that much Game; all they have to do is open their eyes and notice the women already interested in them.

    Where do you find these girls? because i know not of ONE that exhibited any behavior even vaguely resembling what you described (well, at least in RL that is, Kristen Bell in Fanboys is every nerd’s wet dream, the “Beat every Zelda game” was a bit over the top though even for a movie), i mean “Donkey Kong shirt”? wtf? from my POV it’s almost as if you live in some sort of twilight zone where hotties become nymphos in the presence of a guy with an IQ of 140. If such a place exists on earth then please, by God Almighty please email me the address ASAP.

  • Anonymous

    The double standard has its basis in biology. You’re not going to alter that making your case on this little blog.”
    .
    naughty, naughty, Susan, you know the recent science says otherwise!!
    I have posted links on that in the past- Helen Fischer et al.
    Aldonza has done so to.
    .
    Of course, even if the science DID agree with the double standard, since when do we act like unethical, brain dead animals?

  • Butterfly Flower

    Don’t feel odd, if you’re a mythological creature, then I must be not of this earth lol (analogy wise this was the best I could do lol). 27 and a virgin here for a few reasons that I won’t take the time here to explain, unless someone asks.

    Don’t feel odd about being a 27 year old virgin. Marriage-minded men are really hard to come-by these days. Besides, there’s many 27 year old virgin guys!

    Thank.You.

    For sharing information about the rare “Alpha-Unicorn”? Talk about amateur’s luck. That Haley’s Halo blogger dedicates years of her life attempting to capture such a creature…meanwhile I wander into the enchanted forest and stumble right into one!

    Christian Alpha’s exist; however they tend to operate under the radar.

    Hm, now I really need to start my own blog. “How to find a Christian Alpha”. I always enjoyed Cryptozoology ;)

  • Butterfly Flower

    i mean “Donkey Kong shirt”? wtf? from my POV it’s almost as if you live in some sort of twilight zone where hotties become nymphos in the presence of a guy with an IQ of 140. If such a place exists on earth then please, by God Almighty please email me the address ASAP.

    I live in NYC.

    My local SMP is mostly occupied by hipsters, socialites, and young city employees like cops or sanitation workers. [the Wall Street/CPA/Finance folks tend to be Type-A neurotic head cases that enjoy getting plastered before dinnertime; so they’re pretty much absent from the SMP.]

    It’s certainly no university campus SMP.

  • Blues

    Of course, even if the science DID agree with the double standard, since when do we act like unethical, brain dead animals?

    Since women cuckold their beta husbands to raise the children of alphas, which would be a million years and counting.

  • Blues

    I live in NYC.

    Interesting, this is actually quite accurate with what i’ve heard.

  • jess

    blues,
    it was I who posted the fischer thing.
    .
    apparently for 1000’s of years you are right-‘cuckolding’ parentage was common
    .
    but there is no need for that practise to continue with the arrival of modern science.
    paternity tests are cheap and reliable and in reality cannot be refused by mother or court (unless the father has zero access to kid)
    .
    so if any guy here is paranoid about raising someone else’s child they need not harbour a single concern over ‘not knowing’ ever again- not for a microsecond, not even a nanosecond, hey, not even a zepto second…

  • Blues

    @jess: paternity test or not the fact is that it is unethical and still being done by women today. Oh btw in some parts such as France and Germany a paternity test is forbidden by law unless the mother approves it.

    http://www.ibdna.com/regions/UK/EN/?page=paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france

  • Integrity Congruency

    So double standard and cuckolding both have their basis in biology?

    Fair enough. Carry on then.

  • brightstormyday

    The problem with putting a marker on biology here is that humans don’t necessarily have any specific biological anything that would put them into any category, one or another. Human sexuality is incredibly malleable, and I think the sphere forgets that.

    Generally, humans tend to lean towards polygyny, like a lot of mammals. But most large mammals lean towards poygynandry. According to biology, men benefit from having multiple female partners in terms of reproductive success. Yes, they have a greater likelihood of having children. Similarly, according to biology, women don’t gain or lose from having a high partner count. Their reproductive success, as long as they are doing teh sexytimes, will flatline. This is probably because of relatively long gestation periods. She can sleep with 100 men, or 1 man, and her reproductive success will remain the same.

    Our society is socially monogamous. What does that mean? It’s the expectation that two people get married and stay together for that duration. It’s the expectation that they don’t cheat. Men would benefit more from cheating than women in this situation, since they will have a chance to fertilize some more eggs. And while women can in certain scenarios benefit from extrapair copulations, they aren’t as common as the sphere says they are. (One study used blood groups to determine paternity, which was based on the outdated notion that a child must have one of his parent’s blood type. It is possible, for example, for two A parents to have an O child, because O is a recessive blood type. Another international study gathered its statistic from men who were sure the child wasn’t theirs. The cuckolding percentage was about 30% in this case. Out of the group of men that are positive the child is theirs, the international studies show a median percentage of 3.7%, with the lowest number being 0.8%).
    Paternity fraud is more common among poor people, unmarried people, and young people. A middle class married couple in their 30’s is probably least likely to have to worry about paternity fraud. It’s a concern, yes. And it’s a terrible crime and more should be done about it. But I’m saying that while people in the sphere are using paternity fraud as a case for female chastity and faithfulness, I think it’s important to also use it as a case for male faithfulness as well. Imagine a wife finding out her husband has a ton of children, and double lives she never knew about? This might be less likely than paternity fraud but it’s still messed up. Resources he can be spending on you and your children are going to go to some other slut and her children. In this case his inability to keep it in his pants is going to negatively impact his ability to provide for his family.

    And for those who think maybe things would be better if we were to become a polygynous society…one in which men can take multiple wives. Things would be even harder on men than they are now. Right now, there’s going to be a percentage of men who will never reproduce. Now imagine that percentage and multiply it by 2 or 3. That’s what a truly polygynous society will do to men. In these societies, to even get a wife, you have to be able to provide. To have multiple, you must be able to support all of them equally. And think of the economic impact it would have. There would be no middle class. There would be the haves, and the have nots.

    Social monogamy is the way to go. Now if we could achieve that without the high rates of single parenthood, without the divorces, without the cuckolding, or the cheating, I think we would reach perfection. *sigh* I think the only thing that can happen is that this will self correct itself. A society like this is not sustainable. the women who are initiating these divorces are the ones who are being punished. The likelihood of a woman remarrying after the age of 30 is at most half that of a man’s. So for all of you who’ve been divorced, at least relish the fact that your ex wife is in for a rude awakening.

  • brightstormyday

    Oh, and speaking of things that have a basis in biology…

    Beating a wife that threatens to leave you has a basis in biology.
    Killing your stepchild if it’s under the age of 5 has a basis in biology.
    Men more likely to die under the age of 30 due to risky activities has a basis in biology.

    etc. etc.

    Men like to shout about cuckolding as proof that women inherently suck, then completely forget about how a lot of their unsavory behaviors have a basis in biology. Thankfully, humans evolved a prefrontal cortex, therefore NAMALT and NAWALT.

  • Jess

    Blues,
    I worded my response carefully. In REALITY, a court cannot prevent the test. I actually consulted my lawyer friends about this issue on this blog about 6 months ago.
    .
    If say you had a child with a woman, who you suspected was not yours and she and a court banned you from taking a test, you or another agent could obtain hair without their knowledge. A single strand would do. You send it off in an envelope and job done. Once you have proof you simply suspend child payments. No court could sanction you let alone jail you under those circumstances if they went after you for support. You could prove the child isnt yours. It would become a test case but with an inevitable conclusion and the legal fraternity are well aware of this- I have been reliably informed so anyway. I forget the Latin for it- I can’t find my notes.
    .
    Is it unethical to cuckold? Yes in my opinion.
    .
    Lots of things that are historical or biological are unethical.
    .
    That’s why I always laugh when people suggest there are biological imperatives encouraging female, but not male, chastity.
    .
    Firstly it’s not true, but even if it were, it’s irrelevant to the arguments supporting the sexual double standard in a Civilised ethical society.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    @brightstormyday
    First thank you for finally adding something beyond personal attacks this theme has a lot more potential than blaming people or adding less blame. I will debate this points because I think you are right in focusing on them but there are gaps to fill, IMO.

    The problem with putting a marker on biology here is that humans don’t necessarily have any specific biological anything that would put them into any category, one or another. Human sexuality is incredibly malleable, and I think the sphere forgets that.

    True, but there is even more to that. Sexual strategy and sexual behaviour and sexual orientation are 3 differents aspects of sexuality. A person might be bisexual but choose monogamy with one gender for whatever reason and also cheat on the side as sexual strategy for again whatever reason. The combination is part of the reason pairing up is such a risky business.

    Generally, humans tend to lean towards polygyny, like a lot of mammals. But most large mammals lean towards poygynandry. According to biology, men benefit from having multiple female partners in terms of reproductive success. Yes, they have a greater likelihood of having children. Similarly, according to biology, women don’t gain or lose from having a high partner count. Their reproductive success, as long as they are doing teh sexytimes, will flatline. This is probably because of relatively long gestation periods. She can sleep with 100 men, or 1 man, and her reproductive success will remain the same.

    Mmm yes and no. You forgot the part of pair bonding and falling in love a man or a woman in love specially in the first stages is focused in his/her current partner only and this can override the sexual mating needs (oneitis). Also women’s genitalia is easier to get STD’s and the risk rises with every partner so is very likely that we are the descendants of the most prudent ones that actually survived enough to pass their genes, the same reason we have clitoris, is very likely that the women that didn’t got the extra incentive of the clitoris didn’t mated or didn’t mated often enough to produce larger number of offsprings. Sexual selection also takes in account that in a small tribe a gatherer woman that was having tons of kids with different fathers didn’t has as much access to protein than any woman that assured a partner that will hunt for her and his kids. That is why loyalty is valued above all for men, while women value any marker that means more protection for her and her kids.
    My take is that is an spectrum with more women leaning towards monogamy because their ancestors where the ones that could ensure partners that sustain them and more men leaning towards poligamy. But this should vary depending on many factors like gender ratio, size of the group, weather.

    But I’m saying that while people in the sphere are using paternity fraud as a case for female chastity and faithfulness, I think it’s important to also use it as a case for male faithfulness as well. Imagine a wife finding out her husband has a ton of children, and double lives she never knew about? This might be less likely than paternity fraud but it’s still messed up. Resources he can be spending on you and your children are going to go to some other slut and her children. In this case his inability to keep it in his pants is going to negatively impact his ability to provide for his family.

    Actually few manosphere commenter support the cheating man right, in fact I had read some that said that a cheating man deserves to be taken to the cleaners as long as the wife didn’t contributed to the cheating by denying sex as a way to control him. They are mostly at arms for female cheating because is condoned by society more than male ones (just count the amount of movies were the unfaithful wife is showed in a sympathetic light vs males) and because a woman can leave his partners and taking a lot of the assets. So I do think they are not trying to sell cheating ok for men, mostly they are sick scared of the fact that if their wives find someone more attractive they can sleep with him with no social cost for them but cost for the husbands that are usually blamed for the cheating in the first place.

    And for those who think maybe things would be better if we were to become a polygynous society…one in which men can take multiple wives

    Another thing that manosphere doesn’t support and is afraid is what women are creating with their agreement to participate in soft harems with Alphas as long as they get a chance to hop into their dicks and dream of being the chosen one at some point.
    Most manosphere guys know very well what happens to the boys that are born into the mormon’s communities that are polygamists…not pretty and even worse than whatever they might experiment now.

    Social monogamy is the way to go. Now if we could achieve that without the high rates of single parenthood, without the divorces, without the cuckolding, or the cheating, I think we would reach perfection. *sigh* I think the only thing that can happen is that this will self correct itself. A society like this is not sustainable. the women who are initiating these divorces are the ones who are being punished. The likelihood of a woman remarrying after the age of 30 is at most half that of a man’s. So for all of you who’ve been divorced, at least relish the fact that your ex wife is in for a rude awakening.

    I do believe that is possible that under the right set of factors pair bonding could work the best for both genders in a large group of people. The thing is we are in the wrong set of factors nowadays. The thing is that things will need to get worse to get the people in power to correct the social rewards given to women that frivolous get divorces because as off now media only sells the pretty side of divorce and if there is something women hate is to admit they screwed up so all this divorcees will keep updating their Facebook accounts with the post divorce fabulous lives. Is an act that will be discovered but it will take more time and more voices like Susan’s to uncover them.

  • Jess

    Bright stormy days, 9.12
    Quality reply.
    J
    .
    .
    Susan- “no woman deserves to be raped regardless of what she’s wearing although I also believe women should be prudent in their behavior to keep themselves safe”
    .
    Yes, yes and another yes to be sure.
    You see we do agree sometimes…

  • Juge Juice

    Brightstormyday,

    Men would benefit more from cheating than women in this situation, since they will have a chance to fertilize some more eggs.

    Not true. The number of eggs is unrelated to the structure of gender relationships. It’s based on raw biology. The only way a promiscuous man can have multiple children is by denying the opportunity for another man.

    Quite simply, if you have a situation with 100 men and 100 women. Under monogamy, each woman has 1 child per year and each man has 1 child with his genes. Under polygamy, a man may mate with 5 other woman but that means 4 other men miss out on the chance to have kids with their genes (compared to the monogamous example).

    I don’t see how “men” benefit overall. It’s simply that the attractive men benefit at the expense of others. Although, it should be noted that biology has ensured that females (as long as they survive) will always be able to pass on their genes. But, I guess in the past that’s balanced by the fact that women are less likely to survive than men.

    On another note, paternity tests have the potential to reduce the proliferation of genes by Alphas but it’s countered by the social support toward single mothers. I’m not sure, but I suspect single mothers are more likely to have mated with Alphas since Betas are less likely to leave their children. I still support welfare for single mothers since it’s always beneficial to have educated and healthy youths. In addition, those women are probably not affected by economic consequences of having a kid when they go out and get drunk at parties.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    It’s a different IP address, different city, same state. Hard to say. Maybe Plain Jane is on vacation. However, PJ has some “tells” in her speech patterns and they’ve not shown up here. Also, no talk of India so far… the jury’s still out. Their general manner of debate is very similar, I agree.

    She could had moved too, for work or she finished college.
    And really Susan between PJ and Tammy I think you have a fuku (voodoo/dominican word for curse) and attract all the crazies. Take a bath in the sea (with a blue or a white bathing suit) please and pray to the gods for good luck and to keep the crazies away! :)

  • Integrity Congruency

    “Generally, humans tend to lean towards polygyny, like a lot of mammals. But most large mammals lean towards poygynandry. ”

    Humans tend toward serial monogamy, which is another type of polyandry and polygyny, unless their cultures highly stigmatized pre-marital dating and and post-marital divorce.

    Susan, forgive me if that came across rudely. Not my intention to tell you how to run your website. Maybe I’m just too old for this blog because it appears most of the commenters are stuck in the college scene. I’m wondering if this is due to their age or due to the fact they never grew beyond it, and don’t mix and mingle with people over 25.

    After having spent the last 1 hour watching transgender youtube videos its become appearant to me that by the time heterosexual men and women settle our issues with one another and finally figure out what “women want” and “want men want” that we are going to have to deal with a whole new slew of issues that is going to throw all of that off kilter.

    A generation from now there are going to be a significant number of men walking around who were born baby girls and women walking around who were born baby boys. And it looks like you can’t really tell the difference. They are getting their internal organs removed (hysterectomies) and the whole nine-yards.

    What to make of this? I don’t want to derail but after watching this videos I’m a bit concerned.

    What if instead of Slut Walks we then have Trans Walks were it is deemed shameful or even unlawful to reject a boyfriend/girlfriend if you find out that they used to be the other gender?

    We can’t expect that they will remain in a small clique and only date each other. They are going to spread out across society and they are not going to wear “TRANS” around their neck. They are going to be meeting us and dating us.

    This is very confusing and troubling if you ask me.

    At this point even a successfully transitioned male or female cannot reproduce, correct? I don’t know. But science will improve and at some point they WILL be able to reproduce, if they aren’t already.

    Disclaimer: nothing against transgendered people. Just trying to figure out how all of this is going to bode for the future of relations between the sexes, all of them, what to speak of the future of humanity at large.

  • Integrity Congruency

    If anyone thinks my above comment is OT and wonders what inspired it, scroll right on up to the very 2nd comment on this page posted by MILFQUEST. I followed his link.

  • Esau

    Butterfly Flower: “I really liked this one [former] guyfriend; I dragged him to a few movies, I hugged him and held his hand. Instead of trying to start a relationship, he began ignoring me. Either I scared him off by being too forward, or he wasn’t interested in me and didn’t have the guts to say so.”

    You might want to consider more possibilities. I obviously don’t know anything about this specific example, but it’s quite possible that shy-ish guys who reject to your open affections are doing so because they find your “offer” not credible: in short, despite your best, honest, sincere efforts they’ve concluded, even somewhat rationally, that starting anything up with you is not likely to be pleasant or rewarding. And not because you’re necessarily a bad person in any way, but perhaps due to factors really beyond your control.

    Let’s stipulate, as has been testified in this thread, that you’re a way-above-average, model-class beauty. When you make an opening to a shy-ish, inexperienced, opposite-of-a-player kind of guy, what do you think goes through his mind? Certainly one part is “Yes! Woo!”; but that’s likely more than countered by the three parts of “Ten out of the last ten times I got this close to a really gorgeous girl, it went really, really badly; Caution! Panic! Danger Zone!”

    Rather than just leaping to the idea that he’s intimidated or rattled or fearful, let’s slow down and ask, why would this be? What exactly happened to him with those ten prior beauties, that he now associates you with fear instead of pleasure? Perhaps in some of those cases the woman was just teasing, flirting with him long enough to get an ego-boosting response and then moving on. These things happen, and while I think this is certainly bad behavior on her part I can’t call it a capital crime.

    More likely, though, is the case where the woman’s initial interest actually was sincere — as yours presumably is/was. What can we imagine happened in those cases? The scenario I would bet on, is that he didn’t hit some mark that she was expecting — he failed a sh*t test, expressed over-eagerness, didn’t take the lead physically at the right moment, etc.; nothing mean or nasty on his part, but all tingle-killers. After that her interest faded and she decided to try her luck elsewhere — after all, she has a lot of choice in the world — leaving him puzzled, frustrated and existentially embarrassed, especially if he didn’t understand what he did wrong. For her, he’s just another guy who didn’t quite fit or strike sparks. What gets logged in his unconscious, though, is “Beautiful women == pain and frustration”.

    Do you get the picture? Understand, that this all happens ten times before you even enter the story. By the time you show up and hug him at the movies, he has every reason to expect that you’ll be just as inscrutable and frustrating as all the other beauties. Yes, it feels good to be hugged now, but what is likely to happen next? By far the most likely expectation is that you will emit some subtle cue he can’t recognize, demand some performance he doesn’t even know you’re asking for, and leave him holding his … diminished ego. It’s not that he’s intimidated, exactly; it’s more like he’s rationally (even if subconsciously) concluded that the cost-benefit is not favorable. For the sake of his own pride it’s perfectly sensible for him to turn the opportunity away.

    Note, that even if you are that extremely rare beauty who won’t hand out sh*t tests and require that her mind be read, it might not do you much good if he can’t recognize you as such. Snuggling up to him at the movies shows you’re interested, but it doesn’t show how you’re any different from the rest. It sucks for you, but the fact may be that the ground was ruined for by your “sisters” before you even had a chance, entirely outside your fault or control.

    Personally I’m not much on advice, but the only general suggestion I could make for women in the position you describe — beauties who want to take up with the shy-ish guy — is that you find a way to distinguish yourself, early and often, from the other beauties whose demands were too inscrutable to meet. You may, rationally, not find it worth your time to do so. But if you’re really interested and you find a way to distinguish yourself clearly and believably, then the prize may await you. Anyway, it’s a view worth considering.

  • Retrenched

    @ BF, Esau

    For those interested, here’s a look inside the mind of a shy, inexperienced guy that might help you better understand where they’re coming from, and why they act they way they do.

    http://succeedsocially.com/shyguys

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Integrity Incongruency,

    I’m wondering if this is due to their age or due to the fact they never grew beyond it, and don’t mix and mingle with people over 25.

    First get your “facts” right

    RE: trans, you can say the same about lesbians and gays entering mainstream society, the world doesnt end

  • Matt C

    Esau

    Rather than just leaping to the idea that he’s intimidated or rattled or fearful, let’s slow down and ask, why would this be? What exactly happened to him with those ten prior beauties, that he now associates you with fear instead of pleasure? Perhaps in some of those cases the woman was just teasing, flirting with him long enough to get an ego-boosting response and then moving on. These things happen, and while I think this is certainly bad behavior on her part I can’t call it a capital crime.

    This is ridiculous reasoning. You are over intellectualizing the whole thing.

    I am exactly like those two shy guys she described. I have had beautiful women approach me before and show interest in me. I just was not able to turn it into anything because I was too afraid to take a chance.

    I would also make a bet that shy guys have a history of things that led them to be intimidated by women and not trust the interest of women. Probably coming from their mother or other primary relationships. I know my previous experiences have led me to be very wary around women (most of these experiences come from my misandrist mother who soured the relationship between me and my sister).

    I am trying to overcome these problems, but it’s very difficult. I don’t see why any good looking women would waste their time waiting for me to overcome my hang ups.

    There is no reason for women to pursue shy guys. It’s a waste of time.

  • Chant

    I’ve been reading this insightful blog for a while now and I feel like some of you might be interested in my experience and perspective. Let me introduce myself: I am 21 year old young woman from (North)Eastern Europe. As far as I have gathered the majority of regular contributors are from US, am I correct? So this blog is Western world specific and any of you might not be able to benefit from anything that I say but as a good old Samaritan, I will offer my POV anyway ;)

    In this thread I would like to address couple of things: first Butterfly Flower you’re, not alone anymore – I too am a virgin. Reasons why I am still a virgin are long and winded, but can be summoned up like that: I am unable to have sex without being in love with him. Maybe make out a little – yeah- but any more and it will begin to make me feel very physically uncomfortable. But being a virgin is extremely difficult not because I would like to have casual sex (which I don’t even want to think about) but because of my very high sex drive and cultural pressures, which probably would be an interesting topic for this blog. So it is not a walk in the park.

    ”But good girls will not pursue manwhores or promiscuous men, end of story. They’re not impressed by high partner counts, they’re disgusted.”

    Secondly I would like to comment on this paragraph. Being a promiscuous man does not automatically mean that he is obnoxious fratboy nor that the man has any negative feelings about women in general. I am mostly talking about men who in gaming blogs are referred as ”naturals”. Like somebody already mentioned, those are the kind of men who have had positive female (and male) rolemodels and have a healthy self image. There is very little to no absolutes in human behavior or look at it this way – not everything is black and white.

    Now I would like to address this from my own POV. I personally am very impressed by Alpha men (and yes promiscuity can be one indicator of that) . The real ones are so very rare – like jewels in the desert – and they should be treated as such, hehe. Well maybe that last sentence wasn’t exactly a good one, but what I meant by it was that they are the polar opposite of what I am. I am very feminine and I n e e d a man’s man. This I can say with all honesty – there is nothing more beautiful in the world than a true man. I remember all those Alphas I have encountered and every last one of them had made a lasting impression, even if I haven’t loved them. The point is that I would probably be classified as a ”good girl” and I am not turned off by the idea that my man would have had many sexual encounters before me. I am very confident of my appearance, sexuality and my abilities of what I can bring to the table, so because of my healthy self image, I really don’t feel threatened by that.

    But it all comes down to the man’s character. There is a chance that he can be honorable and promiscuous and there is the possibility that the man has a low count because he has had no options. So for me the real difficulty lies in how to read a man’s character and his core moral values and goals.

    ”I think guys here just refuse to believe pretty chaste girls still exist. Alternatively, their egos are bruised because a pretty chaste girl just told them she thinks they’re not LTR material and is disgusted by their behavior.

    So I’m gonna go wander back into the magical forest. Apparently I’m some kind-of mythological creature.”

    Hehe, yea I have to second that bruised ego part. No matter how gently I let them down, they still take it as a personal failing. I usually just take their hand between my palms, look them in the eye, gently smile and say ”I don’t think this is a good idea”. And after that they have this expression on their faces like i just ripped off their manjewels and then they just disappear for a while only to come back and ask the same thing six months later.
    Can I do anything different so it would be easier for them?

    This post became pretty long and as all of you can probably tell English is not my first language, but I just wanted to say that Susan, you have a very unique blog going on, excellent job :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chant
      Thanks so much for leaving that comment – it’s so open and honest, and your perspective is refreshing. You obviously have high sexual market value, and want to hold out for an alpha of good moral character. They do exist, though they are not plentiful. Most men with many options will avail themselves of those opportunities, and often wind up compromising their own values. A few don’t. And some repent or change their ways as they mature.

      I have enormous respect for your desire to wait for love before you have sex, and I believe that you are well-positioned to do extremely well in the long-term, though this strategy (one I heartily endorse) can be frustrating in the short term.

      Thanks for your kind words, and I hope you will stop by and comment again soon!

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    So tito can’t read. tito=troll?

    Butterfly was a model.
    Who were/are you with?

  • Blues

    @Jess: In REALITY why should i even want to be in a situation where i feel need for a paternity test to begin with? i’d rather go for women where my odds for that are minute to none and seems i’m not in the minority.

  • Butterfly Flower

    This is ridiculous reasoning. You are over intellectualizing the whole thing.

    I agree with you, Esau was a bit off the mark. I think the Beta in the situation I mentioned was just intimidated, I don’t think he was comparing me to past experiences with women. I mean, he was only 17 [this was 2 years ago, I was 17 too]. I doubt said Beta would have had any experiences with women.

    I am trying to overcome these problems, but it’s very difficult. I don’t see why any good looking women would waste their time waiting for me to overcome my hang ups.

    There is no reason for women to pursue shy guys. It’s a waste of time.

    But they’re so adorable! Some girls can’t help but try to hug one, and squeeze one…

    Yeah, though. From my observations pursuing a shy Beta-ish guy appears to be a big waste of time. They don’t even do mixed signals, they just blatantly push women away. If a guy appears to not like me, why would I date him against his will? I’ll just go find someone who isn’t going to push me away.

  • Jess

    Blues,
    Well In one study, it suggested 30% had misidentified fathers. Yeah it surprised me too.
    .
    In terms of this being an issue high in guys minds I would say you are definitely in a minority but there is no research on this as far as I know.
    .
    Either way if you feel it’s an issue for you that’s your choice entirely and given some studies on infidelity I can entirely sympahise.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Chant,

    it was interesting hearing your take on this, thanks for posting.

  • SayWhaat

    I think guys here just refuse to believe pretty chaste girls still exist. Alternatively, their egos are bruised because a pretty chaste girl just told them she thinks they’re not LTR material and is disgusted by their behavior.

    So I’m gonna go wander back into the magical forest. Apparently I’m some kind-of mythological creature.

    Haha, I co-sign this. When people find out that I’ve never had a boyfriend, they’re completely stunned. “Wait — really? You’re joking. No — really??”

    Then they see the guys that I’ve fallen for.

    “Wtf — him?? You mean he broke your heart?? Wow.”

  • Butterfly Flower

    Butterfly was a model.
    Who were/are you with?

    Nobody famous. I wasn’t a fashion model [too short]; I did advertising/print.

    Hehe, yea I have to second that bruised ego part. No matter how gently I let them down, they still take it as a personal failing. I usually just take their hand between my palms, look them in the eye, gently smile and say ”I don’t think this is a good idea”. And after that they have this expression on their faces like i just ripped off their manjewels and then they just disappear for a while only to come back and ask the same thing six months later.

    Did they ever react vindictively or aggressively? I was afraid to date Alphas because I thought that they would get like that if I told them I didn’t want to have sex.

    Haha, I co-sign this. When people find out that I’ve never had a boyfriend, they’re completely stunned. “Wait — really? You’re joking. No — really??”

    Then they see the guys that I’ve fallen for.

    “Wtf — him?? You mean he broke your heart?? Wow.”

    Once on Dalrock I was called a troll for admitting that I crushed on a Beta in High School. Apparently a lot of people in the blogosphere seem to think women are incapable of getting lovesick over Betas.

    Sometimes people react like I have some kind-of peculiar fetish. “Really? You won’t throw yourself at the muscular manwhores that proposition to you? You actually prefer quiet Beta-ish guys? Well, whatever floats your boat…”

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    Plain may be an exaggeration, but I stand by the belief that girls who claim to be disgusted by men who have bedded many attractive women are really just activating a defense mechanism to reject alpha males before alpha males reject them.
    This is perfectly understandable, but HUS is here to shed light on SMP dynamics, so I feel compelled to point this out.
    The last “model” I met also did advertising and print work. She was cute, but she wasn’t real model hot. She definitely wasn’t as hot as a dozen other girls who I’ve been with who never modeled.

    http://vksempireofdirt.com/?p=1457

  • Jugo Juice

    Hi Susan,

    I just have a question about Betas. Are introverts necessarily Betas? I’m confident, have my own life, and will usually pass the “shit tests” except I don’t like to hang out with people. A lot of times I might be seen as arrogant rather than confident. But I’m not really arrogant it’s just that I don’t like to talk.

    Are confident introverts Betas or Alphas? I’m a INTJ so I’m extremely introverted.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jugo Juice
      Introverts may be very alpha. In fact, the “brooding loner” – a male archetype – is catnip to women. We want to mother him and bring him out of his shell. We like silent, mysterious men. However, the brash, confident guy who has little fear of rejection and constantly comes on to women is obviously extroverted. You might like your opposite – I’m extroverted, my husband is introverted, and we complement each other nicely. I have known many extroverted couples who wind up competing. I do know introverted couples, but to be honest, I don’t have a good handle on what their dynamic is because they don’t say. :)

  • OffTheCuff

    Once on Dalrock I was called a troll for admitting that I crushed on a Beta in High School. Apparently a lot of people in the blogosphere seem to think women are incapable of getting lovesick over Betas.

    From what I’ve read, I think your terminology of alphas vs. beta are somewhat different from what other people mean. Your boyfriend sounds like a greater-beta to me, not alpha, and the shy guys you pursued sounds like lesser betas to me.

    I approached my wife confidently and directly in college, I’ve had women obviously crush on me and even directly proposition me for sex — but I still think of myself as a beta.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I just have a question about Betas. Are introverts necessarily Betas? I’m confident, have my own life, and will usually pass the “shit tests” except I don’t like to hang out with people. A lot of times I might be seen as arrogant rather than confident. But I’m not really arrogant it’s just that I don’t like to talk.

    Are confident introverts Betas or Alphas? I’m a INTJ so I’m extremely introverted.

    My [Alpha] boyfriend is very introverted. In my social circle, my boyfriend had a reputation for being a bit stuck up [is that what you meant by being seen as arrogant?]

    When I first started dating my boyfriend, girls were like “Damn, how did you snag him?” I think Alpha introverts intimidate many women because they have all the sought after masculine traits but rarely use them to their advantage. So women just think “he isn’t flirting with me because he isn’t interested in me…”

    From what I’ve read, I think your terminology of alphas vs. beta are somewhat different from what other people mean. Your boyfriend sounds like a greater-beta to me, not alpha, and the shy guys you pursued sounds like lesser betas to me.

    I approached my wife confidently and directly in college, I’ve had women obviously crush on me and even directly proposition me for sex — but I still think of myself as a beta.

    No, he’s an Alpha. He’s a waiting until marriage Christian, but he’s still very Alpha. He’s just a different kind of Alpha compared to the typical manosphere definition i.e. a horny mastermind that spends every waking moment plotting ways to make women’s panties wet.

    My boyfriend’s Alpha behavior is very natural. He doesn’t use Game. At least not consciously. He’s calm, confident and serious. He treats me well but it isn’t like he’s trying to appease me or is afraid I’d leave him. I really can’t even articulate it…like, there’s just something about him that demands respect.

  • Mike C

    My boyfriend’s Alpha behavior is very natural. He doesn’t use Game. At least not consciously.
    .
    The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you’ve got it made.
    Jean Giraudoux (1882 – 1944)

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    What fraction of girls with beta boyfriends would admit publicly that they’re dating betas, even if they were honest enough to admit it to themselves?

    There’s nothing wrong with dating a beta! The vast majority of men are not alpha, just like the vast majority of women are not hot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What fraction of girls with beta boyfriends would admit publicly that they’re dating betas, even if they were honest enough to admit it to themselves?

      On this site, a pretty high percentage. I am happy and proud to have married a beta male. The young women I know are a mix – some acknowledge that they want an Alpha male and are not attracted to less dominant men. Others develop crushes on beta guys and happily date them. I do think that there are some beta guys who intuit what the deal is with women and dominance, and they mimic their alpha brethren to great effect. I have known many beta guys who tell girls “I’m not looking for anything serious.” Or “I want to be free to explore my options.” I think these beta guys have figured out that they can get sex on the reg if they’re willing to be a boyfriend, and that women respond well to being ignored. :( These would be greater betas, I assume.

  • Mike C

    I do know introverted couples, but to be honest, I don’t have a good handle on what their dynamic is because they don’t say. :)
    .
    LOL. We can enjoy each other’s company in a sort of “passive” way for hours. My GF and I can spend hours together in the same apartment with not a ton of interaction. She can sit on the couch playing solitaire on her phone while I work on the computer in my “office”. I’ll walk over, give her a kiss, and be back over on my computer. We just don’t need to be “up on each other” constantly. I was married to an extrovert previously, and at least in that case the problem I ran into is she needed an “active” level of attention from me that got annoying, and then she would take offense and feel “unloved”. I am curious how successful extrovert-introvert couples manage this dynamic. The introvert needs their solitude to recharge while the extrovert feeds off interaction. There is a potential tension there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I am curious how successful extrovert-introvert couples manage this dynamic. The introvert needs their solitude to recharge while the extrovert feeds off interaction. There is a potential tension there.

      Yes, there can be. I feel like my husband and I “calibrate” to each other. He calms me down, I open him up. A typical evening for us is to share dinner and catch up on our day with plenty of chatting, sharing funny tidbits, etc. Usually after dinner we do our own thing – reading, watching TV, whatever. So the dinner hour is talkative, then not so much until bedtime. I like that, because even though I do love interacting with others, it gets exhausting to be “on” all the time. My husband is a refuge of thoughtfulness and serenity.

      I will say, though, that at times I feel that my husband dislikes it if I get too quiet. I’ve accused him of always wanting me to be “perky” like Katie Couric. He claims this is total nonsense, but I’ve noticed that when I’m particularly pensive or having a bad day, it throws him off. He wants the enthusiasm, the talking. I think it draws him out and he likes that. Or at least he seems to miss it when I’m not in the mood.

      I’ve never seem him turn into a chatterbox or the “life of the party,” but I think I would find that very disconcerting, LOL. I like his introversion.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Yo, Hami. You seem to have it out for me. Like I said before, I’ve never been attracted to Latinos, but your photo is cute, so I’ll bite ;)

    Re: Transexuals and your comment about Lesbians and Gays, doesn’t apply. Lesbians and gays are out in the open with each and they they will date, mate and marry with their same sex partner.

    When you have someone who was born a male or female but then in adulthood undergoes surgery and hormone therapy to become the opposite sex, and then these people are increasingly out in the world pursuing relationships, it WILL be an issue.

    Imagine meeting a totally hot and awesome chick, having a relationship with her, getting serious, and then you somehow find out she was born a boy!

    What would you do?

    Check this out;

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When you have someone who was born a male or female but then in adulthood undergoes surgery and hormone therapy to become the opposite sex, and then these people are increasingly out in the world pursuing relationships, it WILL be an issue.

      Imagine meeting a totally hot and awesome chick, having a relationship with her, getting serious, and then you somehow find out she was born a boy!

      Honestly, come on. This is extremely rare and will remain so. The whole argument is preposterous.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Its not preposterous, but I’ll drop it. I followed MILFQUEST’s link and its not as rare as it used to be and its increasing day by day. But moving on….

    WRT Alpha vs Beta. These terms are used very loosely by laymen and laywomen on the internet. The way the terms are used in science and academia are different.

    The way its used on the internet I probably have never in my life met a human Alpha Male. Most of the people I meet are regular folks, if not somewhat interesting, but regular and ordinary nonetheless.

    WRT women being attracted to men who have alot of casual sex with many different women, never heard of that.

    I have heard of women being attracted to men who are good-looking, smart, personable, confident, etc. I suppose if a man has all those qualities and more in the right mix then that will open up to him many oppurtunities to sleep with women, but its not the sleeping around in itself that is the attractive factor.

    Just like when some men say they want sexually chaste women. Its not the sexual chastity in itself that is the attractive factor, otherwise there are plenty of physically plain, ugly or fat women who fit the bill, but its OTHER factors about the woman that attract him, looks being an important one, oftentimes primary, and the sexual chastity comes as a close 2nd, but without the looks, forgettaboutit.

    Knowing what I know about STDs, a sexually promiscuous man, no matter how good-looking, hot, smart or confident would repel me. It says 2 things;

    1. That he is not as informed as I am about STDs, OR
    2. He is informed but DOES NOT CARE

    A). I am not attracted to ignorant men, and
    B.) I am certainly not attracted to informed and aware men who do not care enough about themselves to conduct their sex lives in a healthy manner.

    These men have a death-wish and I think it must have to do with low self-esteem. You can see that theme pop up in ROOSH V’s blogs where he writes about why he does not use protection, and then the blogs where he writes about his gut-wrenching fear when he goes to get tested (not as often as he should).

    Something’s “off” there.

    So no, women with as much info as I have about STDs and women who desire men with enough self-worth to practice safe sex methods within a sexually moderate lifestyle, will not be like, “yo, he bagged alot of bitches?! yo that’s sooooooooooooo kewl. like, i have to have him!”

  • Matt C

    Is there ever gonna be a walk for boys who are sexually abused and molested?

  • Integrity Congruency

    Matt C, why don’t you start one? Why wait on someone else?

  • Blues

    @Integrity Congruency: either the guy in the clip is secretly gay, bailed off camera (why do it off camera i can’t understand) or really needs the money, there’s just no other explanation. “Miriam” said “i’m a man”, no even “i was a man” but “i am a man” WTF? what man actually looking for a woman to date, marry or hell even just to fuck around with would take that offer?.

  • Jennifer

    Some people don’t want men who have riddled their sex lives with multiple women. I don’t approve of sluts of either sex. Also, rape is an act of power, to answer an earlier point. This has nothing to do with social hierarchal imbalance, though, just very low males. And these males are exceptional; I’m not going to believe the no-doubt feminist myth that one in three men support it.

    Chant, good for you. But don’t simplify men by calling them “alphas” or “betas”.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Plain may be an exaggeration, but I stand by the belief that girls who claim to be disgusted by men who have bedded many attractive women are really just activating a defense mechanism to reject alpha males before alpha males reject them.
    This is perfectly understandable, but HUS is here to shed light on SMP dynamics, so I feel compelled to point this out.
    The last “model” I met also did advertising and print work. She was cute, but she wasn’t real model hot. She definitely wasn’t as hot as a dozen other girls who I’ve been with who never modeled.
    http://vksempireofdirt.com/?p=1457

    I want to add another perspective, IME it you count models and supermodels and compare them with their other famous counterparts actress and singers. Models tend to have more stable marriages and have kids faster and have more kids too than the latter. I think models are very good at understanding the SMP market and how their beauty can’t buy them happiness forever and cash in settling down as soon as they can.
    Modeling is a brutal business you can be the hot girl one season, and the next no designer wants to use you and gays are not nice to women they think they are ugly they are brutal call you fat, ugly and all kinds of insults and get rid of you at the last minute if they can get a “better model” . So they learn really fast in their microcosms that her assets are perishable and fast. And trust me a model among normal people looks like a goddess with little work, a room full of models? Not so much you need to be really distinctive to have it done and some women can look like they will do great to the untrained eye and fail miserable every time she tries in the runway. They know they need to cash in it fast in a market were their looks will be valued so I wouldn’t be surprised that not necessarily they are afraid of rejection but that they know that they learn the long term strategy faster and look for commitment before they age too much to cash in the model looks, YMMV.

    Yes, there can be. I feel like my husband and I “calibrate” to each other. He calms me down, I open him up. A typical evening for us is to share dinner and catch up on our day with plenty of chatting, sharing funny tidbits, etc. Usually after dinner we do our own thing – reading, watching TV, whatever. So the dinner hour is talkative, then not so much until bedtime. I like that, because even though I do love interacting with others, it gets exhausting to be “on” all the time. My husband is a refuge of thoughtfulness and serenity.
    I’ve accused him of always wanting me to be “perky” like Katie Couric. He claims this is total nonsense, but I’ve noticed that when I’m particularly pensive or having a bad day, it throws him off. He wants the enthusiasm, the talking. I think it draws him out and he likes that. Or at least he seems to miss it when I’m not in the mood.

    Wow. This explains my husband and my dynamics to a T (except that he can be live of the party if is among his very close friends (like 20 years of friendship friends). But indeed I’m very extroverted and people feed me and they feed from me, but I need my husband to soothe me and ground me. I’m also an idealistic (in case it was not obvious) and he is more realist so he keeps my feet on the ground. I think the key to balance a ying yang couple is that they both should not consider that they are better than the other one. My husband loves my magnetism with people and I love his steadiness and attention to detail. My guess is that couple fails when they try to change each other or turn their SO into their sidekicks. I would never do that. I would go insane with another me in the same house and he actually left one of his girlfriends among other things they never did anything because both wanted to stay at home and be bored. I think he appreciates to make up plans because he knows he has a yes and when I told him that “I miss the beach” he made plans to take me there at the best time and I trust him he will do with when is best. I’m glad to see that all the people that give me the side eye when I say that he is introvert are wrong about us not working in the long run. I think we will do well.:)

    I will say, though, that at times I feel that my husband dislikes it if I get too quiet.

    I used to joke that my husband is probably the only man in the world that actually worries when I’m too quiet “are you mad at me babe?” now I can say he is among the only two ;)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    I like your thoughts on the supermodel´s SMP a lot.

  • Stephenie Rowling

    I like your thoughts on the supermodel´s SMP a lot.

    Thanks you have to live it to believe.
    I also developed a total respect for the models that make it big. I’m pretty sure they didn’t had it any easier and dealing with constant rejection and still believe in your worth as a model is not “pretty”. I know I quit the moment I stopped having fun and I didn’t dealt with as much rejection but I was realistic about the limits of my looks and how little it will take for me to get into the trash can and I was just doing for fun. No fun = no worth it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    No fun = no worth it

    Which summarizes everything about the female psyche. Guys, take notes.

    I didnt know you were into modelling btw. The few models I know, dont know anything about literature. Too busy squeezing every drop of their looks before they fade / bitching against each other. But I havent met any *super* model – yet.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Are confident introverts Betas or Alphas? I’m a INTJ so I’m extremely introverted.”

    Confidence = alpha, but there’s also an element of blazing your own path in alphatude, so you can be a confident beta if you don’t feel the need to be socially dominant.

    MBTI’s aren’t everything, but it’s worth noting it’s been observed that NTs tend to mate far better with other NTs than with other types.

    I’m a heavy I myself, I’ve turned it into a + by cultivating a strong silent type shtick.

    You might be interested in Vox Day’s six-point taxonomy of male personalities. I’ve self-identified as a Sigma, essentially a high-drive achiever who doesn’t find socialization as important as a true Alpha does.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      I’ve self-identified as a Sigma, essentially a high-drive achiever who doesn’t find socialization as important as a true Alpha does.

      Interesting, that’s how Vox identifies himself as well, and of course that means that Sigmas are the sexiest of all. ;)

  • Stephenie Rowling

    Which summarizes everything about the female psyche. Guys, take notes.

    This is only for hobbies Yohami. I did a lot of horrible jobs I hated for the money. But hobbies that you pick are supposed to be fun.

    I didnt know you were into modelling btw. The few models I know, dont know anything about literature. Too busy squeezing every drop of their looks before they fade / bitching against each other. But I havent met any *super* model – yet.

    Heh I’m one of this rare people that wakes up one day and says “mmm this seem like fun” and goes and does it. That is how I ended up with a lot of titles and a lot of education. I also know how to cook, to knit, to crochet, to paint, to draw, to photograph, to make and edit videos to fix a leaking pipe, to do some carpentry, I was also in a beauty pageant…. I just joined Toasmasters because I’m going to concentrate in breeding for the next 4 to 6 years and I wanted a pause. Then I will get a degree…in something. But literature is my calling I had been telling stories since before I knew how to read. Another case of art picking people and not the people picking art.

    Yohami I’m kind of thinking that you are in the same social circles all the time. A lot of models I knew were extremely smart, sociable (except venezuelans they are very competitive but all they do is not socialize a lot) and well read. Heck reading is the only thing to do between sampling, tasting and waiting for the make up and hair to be done and no they don’t read just romance. Many of them want to make it big (whether marrying rich, hosting a TV show, acting or traveling overseas to be an ambassador at UNICEF) so they know that they can’t afford being idiots (trust me no one gives a chance to speak to a girl that can’t do it, unless they were fooled that is why the pageants still have the questions) so we usually have all sorts of reading in politics, world events and general culture and quizzed each other.

    I really hope you hang out with other types of women when you move to London. But then maybe is the type of music you do? The music fans have their own code of behaviour even among another subculture a Katy Perry Fan is not the same as a Kesha fan.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Badger,

    I’ve self-identified as a Sigma, essentially a high-drive achiever who doesn’t find socialization as important as a true Alpha does.

    Sigma is what most non naturals can learn. Sigma is good because it requires indifference and self amusement and doing your own thing, which is easier to develop than the massive (and time consuming) social skills you need to be socially dominant.

    If done well, you can form your own tribe around your Sigma figure, which trades your Sigma chips for Alpha chips, and lets you develop the social traits you need with a lot of green cards and permissions for errors that you wouldnt have if you were climbing someone elses ladder.

    ————–

    I have been thinking about this and I have an Omega / Sigma / Alpha back and forth on my head. But lets say its a Joker / Batman / Bruce Wayne back and forth.

    If I spend too much time being Bruce Wayne, Alpha, I have a LOT of fun I start forgetting I should be fighting for Gotham / start losing myself.

    As soon as I retreat to solitude, Batman emerges, the mission is whats important, people, I dont really give a fuck. People deviates me from my goals.

    Too much time as Batman and one day I wake up back as the Joker / Omega. With my mission as the only thing important, but too isolated to be real.

    So I come back as Bruce and realize my whole existence is trivial, thus my mission and goals, and the fears associated with them disappear. Cash my sigma chips for alpha chips and give a lot, but also receive a lot of trivial, fun, vulgar energy

    The energy that Batman needed to go back to focus. And on and on.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    Yohami I’m kind of thinking that you are in the same social circles all the time.

    I´ve been in a lot of circles. I met the most interesting people in the literacy circles, back when I was in Venezuela.

    The models circles… not too sharp. Few exceptions, very few. I met a couple of male models who were really deep and cultured. Female models, not so sharp.

    That was in Venezuela. Since I moved to Argentina about 8 years ago, I havent been lucky finding interesting people. The pool is bigger, the pool is more fragmented, not as focused, too many options and too little substance, and too much tango, too.

  • Butterfly Flower

    The last “model” I met also did advertising and print work. She was cute, but she wasn’t real model hot. She definitely wasn’t as hot as a dozen other girls who I’ve been with who never modeled.

    …I just realized, was this a dig at me? *annoyed*

    I live in NYC; I approached by an agent because I had “the look”. I rarely bring up my former career but people on here kept dismissing my comments by accusing me of being ugly.

    What do you look like? I’m sick of these personal attacks.

    I think models are very good at understanding the SMP market and how their beauty can’t buy them happiness forever and cash in settling down as soon as they can.

    If anything, modeling makes women less superficial and more realistic. I think models care a lot more about personality compatibility than any other factor. For example, Heidi Klum is married to the musician Seal who has severe discoid lupus scars on his face. I realize he’s a famous musician, but a lot of women might have trouble looking past disfigurements, especially facial ones. & compared to other celebrity couples, Heidi Klum and Seal’s love for each other is very obvious.

    Thanks you have to live it to believe.
    I also developed a total respect for the models that make it big. I’m pretty sure they didn’t had it any easier and dealing with constant rejection and still believe in your worth as a model is not “pretty”. I know I quit the moment I stopped having fun and I didn’t dealt with as much rejection but I was realistic about the limits of my looks and how little it will take for me to get into the trash can and I was just doing for fun. No fun = no worth it.

    I stumbled into modeling, disliked it, and eventually left. My problem wasn’t with rejection, it was the phone calls from my agent saying I was booked as ethnic model #2. Like, I had exotic [Mediterranean/Oriental] features, but I was just white enough to make it as a model. The whole concept seemed skeevy and racist.

    I also had difficulty grasping the concept of my physical appearance being used as a marketing tool. My personality was irrelevant, my thoughts were irrelevant, my opinions didn’t matter…there was no sense of accomplishment. I was just a mannequin that was hired to stand around and look pretty.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    Butterfly, who assumed you were ugly?

    I’m hesitant to believe you’re model beautiful, and your story lends credence to this belief. I do believe you are at least cute.

    What I’m digging at is your implication that you’re the type of girl who successful players eventually want to settle down with.

    What do you look like?

    Male version of you. “exotic [Mediterranean/Oriental] features”
    I am not model beautiful. I do not have a pretty face. I have a very exotic look that gets attention and gets people to remember me. I do have a very masculine physique.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Interesting, that’s how Vox identifies himself as well, and of course that means that Sigmas are the sexiest of all. ”

    Without a doubt :-o

    I like Yohami’s Batman analogy. One of the happily bizarre things about learning about game is to see how much natural game I have with my driven, idealistic but vaguely aloof personality. My problem has usually been logistics, how to meet women and how to escalate properly. I play the strong silent type well (take after my dad); I also have a killer deadpan. It fits me, when I don’t get in my own way, but I need a smart woman or she’ll be bored by it. An OKCupid test rated me the Suave Lover, a James Bond type who is bold but reserved in public and intense and emotional in private.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I’m hesitant to believe you’re model beautiful, and your story lends credence to this belief. I do believe you are at least cute.

    Did you just imply that because I’m mixed race, I can’t be considered beautiful?

    You know what makes a guy ugly? Being racist.

    I am not model beautiful. I do not have a pretty face. I have a very exotic look that gets attention and gets people to remember me. I do have a very masculine physique.

    Um, no.

    I have very feminine features and my face makes me look a bit underage, but I have a nice body so men assume I’m of age and frequently make propositions to me. [Fashion models sometimes look masculine, but I was never a fashion model – I did print advertisements and commercials]

    & can you please stop making personal attacks? I was always convinced the blogosphere was basically full of jerks, and you’re not helping to convince me otherwise.

  • Integrity Congruency

    Mixed race people are oftentimes very hot. Anyway, men here who believe that women who are a solid 7 and above find any difficult in getting men to commit to them regardless of whether or not they’ve slept or around or are single moms, know in their heart of hearts that they WISH it were so.

    The primary criteria for men is beauty, all else is a second. If beauty is not there, then no matter how chaste, its a deal breaker.

    On the otherhand men are willing to overlook a great many thing if physical beauty is very prominantly present in a woman.

    Look around our society and tell me this isn’t so.

    Hey, don’t shoot the messenger. I’m not the one who made it this way.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    In – Congruence

    The primary criteria for men is beauty, all else is a second. If beauty is not there, then no matter how chaste, its a deal breaker.

    On the otherhand men are willing to overlook a great many thing if physical beauty is very prominantly present in a woman.

    This is the first thing you say that actually makes any sense.

    Can you apply that gender reversed and point what are the feats women value the most?

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    Butterfly, go back and read my last comment. I’m mixed race, I may very well be the same mix as you. That last part you took great offense to was me describing my own features. Jesus Tap Dancing Christ!

  • Butterfly Flower

    Butterfly, go back and read my last comment. I’m mixed race, I may very well be the same mix as you. That last part you took great offense to was me describing my own features. Jesus Tap Dancing Christ!

    Oh. I thought you were implying I looked masculine because I’m mixed; I didn’t realize you were talking about yourself. I’m only a quarter Asian – it’s not really that noticeable besides my petite-ness. [It’s kinda sad, actually; most Asian models aren’t even fully Asian and the few that are either have had double eyelid surgery or the make-up artists use that eye-glue stuff to make double eyelids].

    Can you apply that gender reversed and point what are the feats women value the most?

    A cute butt

  • Integrity Congruency

    Yo, Hami: Can you apply that gender reversed and point what are the feats women value the most?

    Butterfly: A cute butt

    I second that! LOL.

    Seriously Yohami, I can’t speak for all women because you men here do a pretty thorough job of that! Whatever I say will get poo-pooed. I can only speak for the features I personally value the most, and since they do not square with what all the men here INSIST that ALL women value, then I’ll settle for being a special snowflake outlier.

    1. Looks
    2. Intelligence

  • Butterfly Flower

    Seriously Yohami, I can’t speak for all women because you men here do a pretty thorough job of that! Whatever I say will get poo-pooed. I can only speak for the features I personally value the most, and since they do not square with what all the men here INSIST that ALL women value, then I’ll settle for being a special snowflake outlier.

    1. Looks
    2. Intelligence

    What about personality?

    I mean, I’ve met many intelligent guys that were absolutely insufferable.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Oh. I thought you were implying I looked masculine because I’m mixed; I didn’t realize you were talking about yourself. ”

    BF – stop thinking about yourself so much. You’re taking offense at every possible slight, even things that don’t refer to you.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    @Yohami

    As soon as I retreat to solitude, Batman emerges, the mission is whats important, people, I dont really give a fuck. People deviates me from my goals.

    I absolutely agree with your analogy. I’m actually there right now and struggling to become Mr. Wayne once again.

  • Integrity Congruency

    BF, personality is 3rd. I didn’t list it because I wanted to keep the list short with the 2 most important factors for me, the 2 I won’t compromise on. My experience has been that most good looking and intelligent guys have decent enough personalities.

  • Dogsquat

    Butterfly Flower: “& can you please stop making personal attacks? I was always convinced the blogosphere was basically full of jerks, and you’re not helping to convince me otherwise.”

    LOLOLOL.

    Butterfly Flower, I believe you’re good looking based on the above statement alone.

    You’ve automatically assumed the guy wants to help you – something an unattractive (or merely plain) woman never does in this day and age.

    Lest you think I’m picking on you:

    I recognize in your other comments a sense of entitlement – similar to my own sense of entitlement. I have fairly solid self esteem and several accomplishments. Many girls have commented favorably on my looks. My default opinion when a member of the opposite sex “rejects” me or disagrees with me used to be that there is something wrong with her.

    Recognizing and mitigating this tendency has been one of the best things I’ve done in terms of my own personal development.

    Before you get all defensive/snap into denial mode –

    Go re-read your comments in this thread about your failure with so-called Beta guys. Not once did you entertain the thought that they might have found your personality unbearable, or your strict black-and-white thinking too grating to be around. In short, there was absolutely no possibility that there was any failure on your part to get what you wanted – it’s all chalked up to the other person’s shortcomings (real or guessed at).

    Again, I’m not picking on you or insulting you. I’m just offering you something you may wish to carefully consider.

    Yours in monomaniacal solipsism,

    Dogsquat

  • tito

    @Kane

    OK Kane, before we proceed any further i must acknowledge that i was a bit rude to you before. i don’t want to take up Susan’s comments with back and forth, unrelated silliness. this post is not about me after all. so Kane, i take it back.

  • SayWhaat

    I don’t even know what’s going on in this thread anymore.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Go re-read your comments in this thread about your failure with so-called Beta guys. Not once did you entertain the thought that they might have found your personality unbearable, or your strict black-and-white thinking too grating to be around. In short, there was absolutely no possibility that there was any failure on your part to get what you wanted – it’s all chalked up to the other person’s shortcomings (real or guessed at).

    My personality isn’t awful; I’m quite sweet and actually a bit shy myself. [I’m usually not black-and-white thinking, I just don’t trust people on the blogosphere; I’ve been flamed and told so many awful things…]

    For awhile I thought I was doing something wrong, but now I really don’t think that was the case. I probably just intimidated the Beta guys.

    I usually was friends with the Beta guys I tried to date. We’d get along great as friends…but I could never successfully escalate my beta-guyfriend friendships to romantic relationships.

  • Anonymous

    That’s why I always laugh when people suggest there are biological imperatives encouraging female, but not male, chastity.
    .
    What people are saying the word “chastity?” Define chastity. For once. Rather than just laughing for no reason and babbling out the word.

  • Matt C

    Anonymous:

    What people are saying the word “chastity?” Define chastity. For once. Rather than just laughing for no reason and babbling out the word.

    Chastity in the context of this blog/thread from what I have seen means being selective.

    Also, Jess’ statement comes from clear ignorance. Men don’t have the choice to be “chaste” because it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder for men to get laid. They can not be as selective about who they mate with as women, but they can be more selective about who they have a relationship with.

    Sigma is what most non naturals can learn. Sigma is good because it requires indifference and self amusement and doing your own thing, which is easier to develop than the massive (and time consuming) social skills you need to be socially dominant.

    What does it mean to be socially dominant?

  • Integrity Congruency

    BF, I’ve seen how a few guys reacted to you on a few sites and I agree with your assessment. A pretty woman, and a pretty woman who knows she’s pretty, meets with jealousy from both sexes. You’re the above average (at least a solid 7 and/or above) who can behave in almost any manner, (short of murder, and even then look at Casey Anthony), and not only get away with it BUT have men happy to commit to you as well.

    That throws all their theories into whack mode.

    I’m not saying you’re behaving out of pocket, you’re not. Just making a point at why you get the reactions you do in the “sphere”.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    IC,

    That throws all their theories into whack mode.

    Which theories?

  • Esau

    BF: “I probably just intimidated the Beta guys.”

    It’s a worthwhile vocabulary exercise to try and answer: what does the word “intimidated” mean here? Is it different from “frightened” or “offended”? If you picture the “Beta guys” as being scared, what do you think they were scared of, exactly? Don’t brush the question off, it will be good for you to try and answer honestly.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    IC,

    “BF, I’ve seen how a few guys reacted to you on a few sites and I agree with your assessment. A pretty woman, and a pretty woman who knows she’s pretty, meets with jealousy from both sexes.”

    I think BF’s problems started when she came onto a thread at my blog and all but called me a liar in public without cause, then started making all manner of completely unfounded accusations about me and my life along with that of other members of the community.

    Jealousy of her alleged looks (I’ve never seen her) is not the issue, the issue has been her presumptuous, moralistic and bossy attitude. She’s pulled a similar shtick at Dalrock’s place. It’s a classic example of the principle that young people think they know everything (I too thought so at that age).

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/moving-on-and-when-to-do-it/

    You’ll notice that the first person to make any comment about BF’s looks was her, assuring us that she was hot and so we should take her opinion seriously.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ““I probably just intimidated the Beta guys.””

    It sounds like you’re upset that beta guys acted beta. Do you get upset when a dog barks? Confirmed betas are not programmed to be socially dominant or sexually forward, even when it’s there for the taking. It takes a lot of patience on a woman’s part to deprogram that instinct, most get frustrated and give up (which is fine, nothing morally wrong with that).

    You are by no means alone in this, there are a lot of women who kind of like the shyness, the sweetness, the faithfulness, the overall beta personality – but at the same time want him to take the lead when she makes romantic initiations at him. To act “alpha” just for her. It’s a variation on the Golden Vagina syndrome, they think their awesomeness will change him. That’s not congruent, it’s not the way he is.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I think BF’s problems started when she came onto a thread at my blog and all but called me a liar in public without cause, then started making all manner of completely unfounded accusations about me and my life along with that of other members of the community.

    I was trying to ask the same questions that Octavia commenter asked [I wish she had a blog, I always enjoyed her comments…] She stated it more eloquently than me:

    Badger,

    The way you presented your views was cause for some questions. You wrote about your ex who ultimately you stated was too dependent and uninteresting. You also mentioned the circumstances of a guy who was with a woman who was “wasted, smoking weed and hooking up…”

    For some people, being dependent and uninteresting can be turned around much more easily than the issues of the other woman. Actually, now that I think about it, being dependent and uninteresting is how some people characterize many Betas. There’s assistance for that. There’s even assistance for those who are like the other woman.

    I thought it was a bit disingenuous how you compared your ex-girlfriend to that cheater/drug abuser. I’ve noticed on the blogosphere people always try to paint failed as the woman’s fault. You made it seem like your ex somehow did something wrong, when really you two just didn’t work out for personal reasons. All the other commenters seem to think your ex girlfriend did something wrong.

    I also agree with Octavia when she said this:

    To me, ending a stagnant relationship—after making a serious effort to rekindle things—is the right step to take. If a guy can’t/won’t do that for me, I really am better off without him and vice versa.

    If I was ever in a relationship with a guy and it started feeling “meh” – I’d try to fix the problems, talk them out, etc. I wouldn’t break up with him immediately. I felt like people were advocating lazy relationships. “Just leave at the sign of any problems, don’t bother trying to fix them!”

    Anyway, I apologize if I hurt your feelings in that thread. I never meant to be mean to you.

  • Butterfly Flower

    You are by no means alone in this, there are a lot of women who kind of like the shyness, the sweetness, the faithfulness, the overall beta personality – but at the same time want him to take the lead when she makes romantic initiations at him. To act “alpha” just for her. It’s a variation on the Golden Vagina syndrome, they think their awesomeness will change him. That’s not congruent, it’s not the way he is.

    Actually, I’m quite dominant. I tend to initiate things first; even with my Alpha boyfriend [well, I try to; he’s opportunistic].

    I never expected Betas to act Alpha, I just expected them to call me back, confirm they wanted to be in a relationship with me. I couldn’t make them enter a relationship against their will.

  • Blues

    I usually was friends with the Beta guys I tried to date. We’d get along great as friends…but I could never successfully escalate my beta-guyfriend friendships to romantic relationships.

    I swear this sounds like the plot of a Twilight Zone episode, from my understanding you’re saying that you’re good looking and couldn’t get male orbiters for a relationship.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I swear this sounds like the plot of a Twilight Zone episode, from my understanding you’re saying that you’re good looking and couldn’t get male orbiters for a relationship.

    I’m not really sure if they were Beta orbiters. They were just platonic guyfriends. If they had crushes on me they didn’t show it.

    I would drag a Beta guyfriend to the movies a few times, hug him, kiss him on the cheek – but he’d just, like, retreat into his shell.

    Since they didn’t really act interested, I assumed these Beta guyfriends weren’t into romantically. I stopped trying to pursue relationships with them, I thought maybe the preferred being just friends.

    At the same time, it was possible I intimidated the 17/18 year old Beta guys without any experience. Not that I had any experience either, but maybe I came on a little too strong and they thought I did?

  • Mike C

    Jealousy of her alleged looks (I’ve never seen her) is not the issue, the issue has been her presumptuous, moralistic and bossy attitude. She’s pulled a similar shtick at Dalrock’s place. It’s a classic example of the principle that young people think they know everything (I too thought so at that age).
    .
    One thing that is definitely off-putting even on a hot chick is when she literally and figuratively thinks her shit doesn’t stink. Not sure if it is just the online demeanor, but I get the sense from BF that she literally does believe she is God’s gift to men. She may in fact be quite the catch, but with some of these guys they might have realized they’d be getting involved with a super high maintenance princess and took a pass.

  • Integrity Congruency

    “Badger….You wrote about your ex who ultimately you stated was too dependent and uninteresting.”

    Being “dependent and uninteresting” are not drawbacks for women. Remember the only thing that matters is our “hotness” and “non-sluttiness” and “non-bitchiness”. We keep getting told that over and over again.

    So which is it? Personality matters or not?

    A hot, non-bitchy, non-slut won’t even be able to keep a man, now?

    What gives?

  • Blues

    Being “dependent and uninteresting” are not drawbacks for women. Remember the only thing that matters is our “hotness” and “non-sluttiness” and “non-bitchiness”. We keep getting told that over and over again.

    So which is it? Personality matters or not?

    A hot, non-bitchy, non-slut won’t even be able to keep a man, now?

    What gives?

    This was discussed a while back, basically the main attraction factor is as you say “hotness” or looks, but that’s just it “attraction”, once you have the attraction you need other things to sustain the attraction in the long term in order to have a relationship and that’s where intelligence, character, nurturing nature, independence, kindness, yada yada yada come in. That’s why “ball busting bitches” get plenty of alpha men attention but not much commitment except for betas that don’t have many options and will tolerate a lot due to their mentality of scarcity.

    personal example: Jessica Simpson is burning hot and i sure wouldn’t mind banging her silly, but anything else? hardly, why? because i can’t stand anyone that dumb, i’d take a sweet, brainy 7 over the hottest 11 on earth that is also an airhead.

    Just about any man thinking of the long term will be willing to trade some points in the looks category if it’s more than compensated in other areas, even betas.

  • Butterfly Flower

    One thing that is definitely off-putting even on a hot chick is when she literally and figuratively thinks her shit doesn’t stink. Not sure if it is just the online demeanor, but I get the sense from BF that she literally does believe she is God’s gift to men. She may in fact be quite the catch, but with some of these guys they might have realized they’d be getting involved with a super high maintenance princess and took a pass.

    I don’t believe I’m God’s gift to man. I’m a good, kind person, but I’m not infallible. No one here is.

    I was just wondering why Betas push women away. Obviously this question will never be answered.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Butterfly,

    Guys who feel shame push women away. They’d rather preserve the fantasy than let a woman get to know (and reject) them. Simple as that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Guys who feel shame push women away. They’d rather preserve the fantasy than let a woman get to know (and reject) them. Simple as that.

      This breaks my heart because it rings so true. Only the toughest, most extroverted alphas grow up in this culture without feeling shame. We shame our boys regularly – it’s built into the curriculum at school and the culture at large.

  • Sox

    Question for the ladies on here: why do you feel the need to label your boyfriend as eminently Alpha or Beta? Doing this and describing past guys in such black and white terms oversimplifies the concept and ignores its transitive nature. Most people who qualify themselves as alpha are seemingly the ones who go out of their way to make sure everyone else knows it too.

    I don’t know. Saying something like “my boyfriend is an alpha” sounds like an appeal for validation or something. Like a guy coming on here and saying, “my girlfriend (who’s a HB9), ….” in every other post.

    One more thing (and once again not intended as a shot against any female commenters here)- I don’t want a virgin, or a girl with a really low partner count. In my experience, attractive, self-proclaimed “good girls” have often ended up being more judgmental, arrogant/conceited, and repressed to the point that they’re unbearable to be around. I’ll take a humble promiscuous girl over that any day. Keep that in mind. It’s not intimidation, it’s just a lack of desire for that kind of attitude.

  • Esau

    BF: “I was just wondering why Betas push women away. Obviously this question will never be answered.”

    Gotta love that 10 million-to-one extrapolation from your own experience to “women” and “Betas” in general.

    Speaking of either yourself or women in general, though, the question can be answered if you just stop deliberately dodging it. A man or boy will decline your opening if he thinks that going any further will not lead to an enjoyable experience, yes? Pretty obvious, I should think. Now, what is it about you, or any other above-average beautiful woman, that would reasonably lead him to expect that being with you will not be fun? It’s a simple question, and if you’re not a coward you can try to answer it.

  • OffTheCuff

    I would drag a Beta guyfriend to the movies a few times, hug him, kiss him on the cheek – but he’d just, like, retreat into his shell.

    I was just wondering why Betas push women away. Obviously this question will never be answered.

    Here is your answer, so “never” say never: they don’t MEAN to push you away. (Now whether you accept the answer as valid is another thing, but don’t say we’ve “never” answered.)

    I’ve been in this situation a few times. Once a girl asked me to drive me home from a band concert, and when I did, she kissed me on the cheek, but did it sort of slowly and put her hand on my neck. I was clueless — I thought she was just being polite and needed a ride.

    She probably thought I “pushed her away”. She was cute, but also a friend’s younger sister. I woulda dated her if I could read the signs, or if should could have been more obvious. By obvious I mean obvious to a virginal guy. That level of obviousness, to a women, seems like a level to get the point across to a retarded gorilla.

    In your case, I see two reasons:

    1) He just wasn’t into you. That doesn’t mean no Betas will be, it means *he* wasn’t. It happens.

    2) He likes you, but he’s a lesser beta than can’t read your IOIs; or, he thinks you’re “out of his league”. He is afraid of escalating due to being raised beta (sexual escalation = evil/sin/illegal) or high rejection chance (underestimating his own SMV) Solution: escalate at least once, but intensely. Lean in and kiss him, for as long as you can. If he *fights* you off or seems revolted, then it is #1. Any other response means he likes you, and just doesn’t know how escalate just yet.

    If the thought of #2 makes you feel slutty or “like a rapist”, I don’t blame you at all — lesser betas are not for you. You don’t have to save anyone.

    A garden-variety beta will approach you, talk, and invite you to do things, but be a bit conflicted about escalation.

    A greater beta will definitely escalate in reasonable timeframe and respect your boundaries. He just won’t have a long history of past (or current) girlfriends. He won’t have a history of “working a room” and having all the girls flirt with him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Solution: escalate at least once, but intensely. Lean in and kiss him, for as long as you can.

      Oh, this just gave me tingles. Something about the guy being taken by surprise, and liking it. Very sexy.

  • jamie

    Question for the ladies on here: why do you feel the need to label your boyfriend as eminently Alpha or Beta? Doing this and describing past guys in such black and white terms oversimplifies the concept and ignores its transitive nature: A guy’s “alphaness” is often defined/in relation to his environment, but not always.

    We don’t label them. Actually those terms were invented by the manosphere. I don’t label men like they were a pack of wolves on animal planet; in real life, I use their names. Here I just use the terms like I would speak a local dialect and for brevity.

  • Butterfly Flower

    @OffTheCuff:

    Thanks for being the only person here that bothered to answer my question.

    Anyone, it wasn’t just one Beta that pushed me away. A few of them did. & they were close guyfriends [Beta orbiters?], so it wasn’t like said Betas didn’t enjoy my company.

    If the thought of #2 makes you feel slutty or “like a rapist”, I don’t blame you at all — lesser betas are not for you. You don’t have to save anyone.

    I don’t mind kissing first [I’m dominant, I usually try to do so anyway]; it’s just I’d feel embarrassed if I kissed a guy that didn’t like me and he acted repulsed.

    Anyway, this doesn’t really matter now anyway. I have a wonderful boyfriend who is in love with me. I don’t plan on kissing a Beta anytime soon. I was just wondering why people in the blogosphere complain that girls aren’t interested in Betas, when I was a girl that [at one point] was interested in Betas and they just [unintentionally] pushed me away. I mean, I couldn’t be the only girl that had this happen to her…

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I was just wondering why people in the blogosphere complain that girls aren’t interested in Betas, when I was a girl that [at one point] was interested in Betas and they just [unintentionally] pushed me away.”

    This is another part of growing up – you come to realize that your personal experiences do not invalidate general trends. The general trend is that betatude is not attractive to women.

    Are their exceptions? Yes, but as we’ve seen on this thread and others, oftentimes women claim they dig beta guys, but then get upset that the beta men don’t catch fire, escalate and lead just for her.

    In addition to exceptions, there’s a caveat – beta guys are poor at reading female interest (or as alphas do, simply assuming it and proceeding), so they are less likely to take advantage of the opportunities in front of them, the women who really do like them.

  • OffTheCuff

    I don’t mind kissing first [I’m dominant, I usually try to do so anyway]; it’s just I’d feel embarrassed if I kissed a guy that didn’t like me and he acted repulsed.

    Totally understandable. As I said, I don’t think you have to save any souls. What I’m trying to get you to understand, is that you have such a huge SMV advantage, that your chance of this is practically zero.

    Perhaps even try little bit of rational empathy – think of that feeling of embarrassment, and now put yourself in the shoes of a guy where it’s going to happen 99% of the time to him, instead of your 1%.

    Anyway, this doesn’t really matter now anyway. I have a wonderful boyfriend who is in love with me. I don’t plan on kissing a Beta anytime soon.

    Sigh… you’ll understand this about 10 years or so. Plans often change despite your best intentions.

    I was just wondering why people in the blogosphere complain that girls aren’t interested in Betas, when I was a girl that [at one point] was interested in Betas and they just [unintentionally] pushed me away. I mean, I couldn’t be the only girl that had this happen to her…

    First, it’s a generalized concept of female behavior, not some verdict on you. Of *course* some girls are interested in betas. From a man’s perspective, there are just not enough of you to be a viable strategy. I have no doubt Ozymandias likes to seek out shy nerds and escalate on them like crazy, and it is a successful strategy for her. But she’s a rainbow-colored unicorn – no sane guy can wait for someone like that to cross his path. He will die alone.

    So, it’s far more accurate to say “most women are not attracted to betas”, and you are in fact proof of this. You are *now* dating a putative alpha (of course, I think he’s a greater beta, but that’s a different topic). I think if you were really were naturally attracted to the natural lesser betas, you’d be dating one now. You haven’t changed as much as you think, only realized your real preference for a more dominant guy.

  • tito

    @Susan

    “Oh, this just gave me tingles. Something about the guy being taken by surprise, and liking it. Very sexy.”

    naughty girl;)

  • Integ Congru

    “Solution: escalate at least once, but intensely. Lean in and kiss him, for as long as you can.”

    This is something a woman will do only if she feels sufficiently desired by the male. If he’s not giving IOIs or if he’s negging her, she won’t feel confident enough to do this. Even in a relationship. Or ESPECIALLY in a relationship.

    I was in a relationship once where my man phased out his romantic overtures and started dropping passive-aggressive negs and it totally turned me off of sex with him. Forget about initiating anything. He had planted too many seeds of doubt.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    (Failed to parse here, again ☹)

    Clarence wrote:

    Anyway, as I’ve said on your blog, this blog, NSWATM I do have some intellectual respect for some of sex positive feminism.

    NSWATM ?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    White Cloud wrote:

    And yet there’s some guys arguing that “rape is not about power”! When even plain old sex is clearly a power play to many of them, there is no way that rape is about anything other than power.

    Hmm. Then that leads also other way:
    • If plain old sex is power play
    • and rape is power play
    then also rape may be sex.

    That is opposite that rape is about anything other than power.

    According of that Jesus Mahoney’s comment being a power play does not exclude that it is sex.

    So I just get opposite conclusion than you from same premises. ☺

    I do not claim (or know) that are premises true or not.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    White Cloud wrote:

    “rape is about power” is a Feminst myth, while rapists themselves admit to the power element of the crime.

    No. I read Yohami that way that Yohami made same comment as I did. You was claiming that rape have only power element, nothing else. We are commenting that claim that rape is not sex. If there is power element on plain sex, then power element of rape does not exclude that there is sex element.

    Your claim there is no way that rape is about anything other than power is claim that rape is not sex. That rape is not sex was disputed. Power element of rape was not disputed.

    Do not distort original claim (and then attack distorted claim and not original claim).

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    White Cloud wrote:

    At most we can say some White American women have that fantasy. And again, without reading I can tell you its not “rape” but seduction at the hands of a highly desirable lover.

    I don’t know about that. There was some blog entries about that research:
    • Remittance Girl
    •• The Ethics and Eroticism of Non-Consensual Sex in Fiction
    • Ed Magusson
    •• Rape vs. Ravishment
    •• Rape vs. Ravishment, Part II

    Research paper apparently was
    The nature of women’s rape fantasies: an analysis of prevalence, frequency, and contents.

    Abstract

    This study evaluated the rape fantasies of female undergraduates (N = 355) using a fantasy checklist that reflected the legal definition of rape and a sexual fantasy log that included systematic prompts and self-ratings. Results indicated that 62% of women have had a rape fantasy, which is somewhat higher than previous estimates. For women who have had rape fantasies, the median frequency of these fantasies was about 4 times per year, with 14% of participants reporting that they had rape fantasies at least once a week. In contrast to previous research, which suggested that rape fantasies were either entirely aversive or entirely erotic, rape fantasies were found to exist on an erotic-aversive continuum, with 9% completely aversive, 45% completely erotic, and 46% both erotic and aversive.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    White Cloud wrote:

    As far as the young man who said he woke up in a strange apartment with 3 smiling and giggling young women in his bed and suspected he had been raped, what do the men here think about that?

    Intercouse, when young man was passed out seems possible. If there was intercouse and young man did not agreed before passing out, this definitely was rape[*]. (There is “morning wood” when sleeping so I guess that it can also happen when passed out.)

    Does the possibility of it being rape increase or decrease depending on how fat/ugly, thin/beautiful the three girls were?

    This that girls was beautiful do not mean that young man wanted intercourse with them. There is STDs for example.

    [*] Or what was term used on law (not necessary rape, legal term may be different, but unlawful anyway.)

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    I have added an editor – commenters can now preview or edit their comments, assuming all works correctly. I am still looking for a lightweight plugin for numbering – it seems like such a simple thing, I must be missing something. Will stay on it.

    Uhh. Where is preview -button? I see only Post Comment -button.

    In my previous comment there is Click to Edit -button, but that is after I have posted comment. It is not preview.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    I am still looking for a lightweight plugin for numbering – it seems like such a simple thing, I must be missing something.

    Hmm. Numbering of entries tends to change if there are moderated entries or some entries are deleted?

    I think that both actions add or remove entries from the middle of the entry chain.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    MaMu1977 wrote:

    OK, I’M throwing this out there because I’ve been driving and everyone’s talking around each other.

    At 15, every guy gets a 35-50 year old woman for a sex partner.
    At 14, every girl gets a 30-45 year old male partner.

    Well, your idea have problem. These actions related to Ephebophilia are criminal.

    Of course that depends what is legal age for sexual activities.

    In Finland that is 16 (with exception for close in age).

    Also your idea is no socially accepted.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Butterfly Flower wrote:

    Also, I’m sick of guys here going on about how they’re such a catch, while making awful and mean generalizations about women.

    I think I’m going to make a blog and point out all of the reasons why blogosphere guys can’t find decent significant others.

    This kind writing seems to be trend.

    I think that everyone is got that he is dread.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Matt T wrote:

    No sane man will go up to a girl and tell her “chicks dig me”. But as studies have shown, women value pre-selected men.

    You are referring to this ?

    Beauty is in the eye of your friends

    It is a classic image: a group of young women sighing over the latest heartthrob. But do they all really share identical taste for, say, Brad Pitt, or that cute guy in physics class? A new study suggests that, in fact, women will look more favourably on the men that other women find attractive.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Butterfly Flower wrote:

    I’m not telepathic.

    OK.

    So when a guy’s behavior implies he doesn’t like me, I assume he doesn’t like me. If a guy pushes me away or ignores blatant IOIs, I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

    IOI ≡ An Indicator of Interest ?

    I do not know what indicators you are referring to, but perhaps they are not so blatant as you think?

    I’m not saying that it is your fault.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Butterfly Flower wrote:

    Don’t feel odd about being a 27 year old virgin. Marriage-minded men are really hard to come-by these days. Besides, there’s many 27 year old virgin guys!

    Sure. My first time™ was at 28. ☺

    (This is not news. I have mentioned it.)

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Blues wrote:

    Since women cuckold their beta husbands to raise the children of alphas, which would be a million years and counting.

    Million years ? How you got this?

    There is thing that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men, but that cover about 100 000 – 200 000 years.

    You can also get several different explanations from where that difference comes. Genes do not tell that.

    Homo sapiens is about 250 000 year old. Homo is about 2.4 million years old.

    Also I think that husband is quite new term in that time scale.

  • Abbot

    Will SlutWalks Change the Meaning of the Word Slut?
    .
    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2088234-2,00.html#0_undefined,0_
    .
    Then the goal is not to eliminate the word. Rather its to redefine it so that a woman is either a virgin or a slut. That way, no man will be disgusted with himself for having dedicated his life to one. That is, a slut walk is nothing more than a collective protest that belly aches a very old complaint: men put women into slut piles or LTR piles. These women want to be the ones to decide what defines wife material for men and that is not a fractured position among feminists.

  • Abbot

    More on wife material that feminists HATE. Going to need a slut triatholon to reckon with this:
    .
    Wife-Material Is At An All-Time LOW
    .
    In short, women don’t understand how INVALUABLE their skills are, but INSTEAD of using these skills, they ignore thousands of years of human history and experience and think that ACTING like a man (high-powered profession, aggressive personality, sexually promiscuous etc.) is going to make them highly sought out by men–the exact OPPOSITE is true. Men value FEMININE traits just like women value MASCULINE traits.
    .
    And to those who say that men are just as bad as women-NOT REALLY. Men have been the way they are for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. It’s in us to do EVERYTHING we can to get LAID. It’s only recently that women have started acting relatively differently.
    .
    Therefore, protecting from the degradation of SOCIETY is the WOMAN’S JOB. They’re the gatekeeper to sex! They control who gets in and who DOESN’T. So don’t blame men for being men. Blame WOMEN for letting men in TOO EASILY.
    .
    If you want MORE GENTLEMEN around like you say you do, then you need to GUARD the pussy!! Don’t give it to anyone unless they put that RING ON YOUR FINGER!! That will create more GENTLEMEN.

    .
    http://www.thisisyourconscience.com/2011/01/03/wife-material-is-at-an-all-time-low/

  • Chant

    Susan,

    I hope I’m not too late to reply to your comment, you know how summers can be – one can loose a track of time so easily!

    I wanted to comment on this part

    You obviously have high sexual market value, and want to hold out for an alpha of good moral character. They do exist, though they are not plentiful. Most men with many options will avail themselves of those opportunities, and often wind up compromising their own values. A few don’t. And some repent or change their ways as they mature.

    I have actually never had this problem where men don’t want to commit. I have been distant from the market (I can’t say that completely off) because of personal reasons for two years now, but I could tell you some unbelievable stories of very high value men wanting to commit to me. In my teens I was terrified of commitment and I was just having fun with guys (never went further than making out) and when the guy confessed his never dying love for me it was time to move on.
    I have gotten quite a few lavish gifts, but I never accepted any of them because for one my dignity is not for sale and secondly if giving gifts is the only way a man knows how to get a girl’s attention then this man has nothing to offer me.

    But the main thing I wanted to say is something you might find a little amusing. Before finding the gaming-sphere etc I never would have guessed that it is hard to get men to commit. I mean I knew men liked to have variety and beautiful women.Actually instinctively I knew a lot about male-female dynamics, but because of my personal experience I never made that connection.
    But what is hard for me is that men extremely rarely make a move on me so they settle for admiring me form the distance. I have heard all the excuses starting from ”there is no doubt in my mind that girl like you is already taken” to ”i could never get you so therefore I will settle for your best friend”. One of the odd ones was when one guy got really drunk and told me ”I’m afraid I’m not man enough to handle you – if we were together I would always be worrying who will you dump me for, what do you see me in the first place and people saying ”what is she doing with him” ”.

    So as you can see i have my own set of problems. Let me ask you a serious question – how can I imply that I might be interested in a guy who is intimidated by me without making the first move? And now here is something I am not proud of, this problem has created so much frustration for me that sometimes I find myself thinking ”If the guy does not have enough balls to make a move on me then he is not someone I would be interested in anyways”. And even though this statement is true enough, I do not want to walk around with such negative thoughts.

    Jennifer,

    Chant, good for you. But don’t simplify men by calling them “alphas” or “betas”.

    Generalizations require simplifications. It is something that people (including me) use to classify men who possess certain traits. I am not dehumanizing them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chant
      First, I’m wondering where you are writing from. Are you talking about the American SMP here? If so, then I think you are attracting nice guy/beta types. And it sounds like you like this kind of guy well enough.

      how can I imply that I might be interested in a guy who is intimidated by me without making the first move?

      That may not be possible. If he is intimidated, you may have to show interest in order to get things moving. Check out my newest post, which is about this very topic! Also, I’ll be writing more soon about women initiating, so stay tuned.

  • Lainey

    I haven’t read all of this thread, but I do agree with Chant. I know a lot of teens that in 10 or so years plan on marrying. They are all great guys and girls.

    Back in the olden days when I was single I had no problem getting guys to commit. I was actually engaged before my husband and I were engaged, and I had murmurings of marriage from other LTRs.

    If a girl is attracted to the marrying kind it shouldn’t be a problem. If a girl is attracted to a player she is going to get very hurt. Guys give off these vibes – it’s like gaydar. Just like guys can read girls, girls can read guys that are authentic. Run from players – run as fast as you can.

  • Abbot

    Run from players – run as fast as you can.
    .
    Isn’t it strange that slut cult feminists give the exact opposite advice to new cult recruits? No cult – no players – no cult.

  • Lainey

    “Isn’t it strange that slut cult feminists give the exact opposite advice to new cult recruits? No cult – no players – no cult.”

    What does that mean, Abbot? Are you saying feminists encourage each other to date players or be players?

  • Abbot

    feminists encourage each other to date players or be players?
    .
    Being a player takes some skill to get laid; therefore, feminists are not players. Multi-man-sex women are not players.
    .
    Slut cult feminists encourage women to embrace “sexual freedom” as that somehow, in their trite insular minds, is directly correlated with freedom from the oppression of men. Yep, fucking them is to be free from them. Its fringe society stuff, but we are dealing here with the likes of Amanda Marcotte and Jaclyn Friedman.
    .
    Practicing the slut cult version of “sexual freedom” implies that a woman should go fuck whomever they are attracted to at any time. Nearly all women are attracted to attractive men, or men who for whatever reason, have achieved player status. So the cult leaders are not saying “date” aka fuck players, but they don’t have to say it. The actions of slut cults and newly minted slut cult recruits has created a player class of men. They exist ONLY because women allow them to. No sluts, no players. Its not a chicken or egg thing. Sluts lead the way. Isn’t it strange that you will never hear a feminist declare that players are bad men who take advantage of women? They may think that but the alternative is far worse. When feminist feel they are losing control over the attitudes of male service providers, they go on slut walks, cast out the all-feared R word, and attempt to get the players to provide satisfactory fling BFE’s.

  • Chant

    Susan,

    Well this might be the thing, I have never been to US so I really cannot speak of American SMP. So my experience will be framed by my culture and by other countries where i have lived.
    Yea, that’s definitely something I kinda tend to forget on the interwebs cause I mostly talk to my friends from US.
    I’ll keep my eyes open for posts about similar topics.

  • Erica

    Esau:

    “Under Feminist Indoctrination, however, if he’s a decent, well-meaning boy then he’ll think “Holy cow! This eye-contact thing is making some women feel uncomfortable or unsafe in a sexual way! I feel really ashamed, and had better cut it out. (Guys, don’t do that.)” Now tell me, what kind of a sexual future do you think he has, if he’s been shamed out of even making eye contact? But, that’s exactly what the feminist protocol must lead to when taken seriously.”

    Wow…this is what you get when you combine “feminists are responsible for every problem of men” kind of things and just plain randomness…Feminists are telling men to not make eye-contact? Seriously, normally I would have asked where you got that information but I’m not going to.

    Suffice it to say any men who provoke that reaction has something SERIOUSLY wrong with him either visually or behaviorally. I make eye-contact with a lot of guys I met, including strangers so does every girls I know. Anyone who feel that making eye-contact is a sin has some serious self esteem and or body image issues. Looking at attractive motas is ‘normal’. Women expressing their desire and assuming their visual, physical attraction is a *GOOD THING*. Repeat people: It is a *good thing*. It’s normal for women to be attracted to good looking men. Women are visual too ffs and I for one am fed up with the “only men are visual” BS we’ve been fed. I like my man good looking.Did you ever thought there were sound evolutionary reasons to prefer attractive mates (especially when it come to women selecting men) and for rejecting unattractive ones. Yeah, burn me as the stake. A society with more gender equality is a good thing. Other than ass-backward inbred people, any constitutionally normal, healthy individual would agree with this basic universal premise. The fact that women are expressing their desires for what they want; not only emotionally but physically as well is also a good thing. Sheesh. What ISN’T normal is harassing or continuing to try to establish a contact with someone who clearly established she is NOT interested in having anything to do with you. THAT is what creepy is about.

    If those men, who may or may not be reproductively inadequate wants to voluntarily remove themselves from the gene pool all the more power to them. Your posts come off as “Woe is Esau for he is physically repulsive to the female gender” though”. Your post really come off as saying “Women shouldn’t have physical preferences. They shouldn’t listen to their desires.” It seem yours and similar cases you champion is a typical case of unattractive men entitlements thinking they “deserve” conventionally attractive women. I think if your looking for women much more attractive than yourself than maybe that could explain your false sense of women’s meanness. Keep in mind though that this YOUR unique experience and not some mystical “men’s experience” (I hate this notion btw so stupid…as if men were a uniform collective. It’s not true for women it’s not true for men) though.

  • rsl

    Has it occurred to any of the slutwalkers that high heels and short skirts are tools of rape culture before they even leave the boutique? We say that a woman can’t be blamed if a rapist claims to be attracted by her outfit. This is obviously true, but perhaps the clothing (and the larger culture that deems it sexy) can be blamed without her being blamed for wearing it. I’d say the clothing and its stigma are minor victimizations in and of themselves.

  • Liz

    There’s nothing wrong with being a “slut”. I’ll dress as I please, go where I please and sleep with who I please. My body, my choice. Yes means yes, no means no.