Rebecca Traister, a longtime feminist and staunch supporter of sex-positive feminism, has a piece coming out tomorrow in the New York Times Sunday Magazine: Ladies, We Have a Problem. In it she addresses the truly cringeworthy aspect of the Slut Walk phenomenon – that is, the fact that a bunch of women parading around dressed as sluts harms the feminist cause.
Traister begins by saying “At a moment when questions of sex and power, blame and credibility, and gender and justice are so ubiquitous and so urgent, I have mostly felt irritation that stripping down to skivvies and calling ourselves sluts is passing for keen retort.”
Traister is a smart woman – why is she having an aha moment now, when in fact, feminists have been stripping down to skivvies and proudly calling themselves sluts for years? SlutWalking is just the latest opportunity for women committed to a promiscuous lifestyle to proudly display their sexuality, a “F you!” in the face of convention. There’s much more going on here than a statement that no one deserves to be raped. Indeed, we’re being asked to withhold judgment of sluthood itself:
“I understand that SlutWalkers want to drain the s-word of its misogynistic venom and correct the idea it conveys: that a woman who takes a variety of sexual partners or who presents herself in an alluring way is somehow morally bankrupt and asking to be hit on, assaulted or raped.
…To object to these ugly characterizations is right and righteous. But to do so while dressed in what look like sexy stewardess Halloween costumes seems less like victory than capitulation (linguistic and sartorial) to what society already expects of its young women.”
The whole point of proud sluthood is that women have the right to advertise and enjoy their sexuality without being judged (or apparently even approached!). That’s a lot to ask, as it is natural for human beings to judge the behavior of fellow citizens according to their perception of what is good for society. The social contract is guarded by the majority to preserve civilization.
In fact, sluts are asking for more than that. Sluts are free to have sex with anyone they wish – ain’t nobody stopping ‘em. We don’t need to know about their sex lives – indeed, we’d rather not. While many may disapprove of their choices, ignorance is bliss, and no one is hunting sluts to hold them up for public ridicule. If anything, it’s chaste women who endure shame in our culture.
The truth is, promiscuous feminists want more than total sexual freedom. They want their choices to be celebrated, and for it to be politically unfeasible for anyone to question their morality. They wish to silence those who would call their lifestyles morally bankrupt (or even think it). They wish to shame men for imposing a sexual double standard, or even for simply preferring to partner with women of limited sexual experience.
“Scantily clad marching seems weirdly blind to the race, class and body-image issues that usually (rightly) obsess young feminists.”
I haven’t heard a word about race and class from SlutWalkers. In fact, those issues don’t appear to be a priority in the church of the sex-positive congregation. Body image, though? That’s a different story. Fat-shaming has become a movement of its own among the sex pozzies. Would it be indelicate of me to call your attention to the photo above, by a photographer for the nation’s most liberal newspaper? It’s representative of Slut Walk photos in general, in my experience.
If moral bankruptcy is defined as judging slutty behavior, coupled with judging obesity in women, then what feminists are arguing for is the right for every woman, regardless of her physical attributes, to get laid by the partner of her choice. This removes all agency from men, who are treated as sex machines who should be grateful for whatever they can get. Oh how they will be judged if they recoil at the sight of a “Proud SLUT!”
Traister believes that “donning bustiers” to “grapple with issues of sexual power” amounts to a lack of precision and self-protection, but she believes in the struggle, and she is eager to reassure her feminist sisters that she has not abandoned the cause.
“I found myself again wishing that the young women doing the difficult work of reappropriation were more nuanced in how they made their grabs at authority, that they were better at anticipating and deflecting the resulting pile-on. But I also wondered if, perhaps, this worry makes me the Toronto cop who thought women should protect themselves by not dressing like sluts… there is still no way for women to tell stories of sexual injustice that allows them to bypass character assassination.”
The problem, as Traister herself uncomfortably senses, is that proudly proclaiming one’s sluthood does lead a vast majority of observers to question the slut’s character, and trading in their black bras for polo shirts wouldn’t change that. Such a notion is unthinkable – it’s the Girls Gone Wild “Sex as empowerrrrrrment” shtick that is sex-positive feminism. The bared midriff, the revealed nipple, and the angrily scrawled Sharpie tats are the epaulets of the uniform. Without the salacious reveals, we’re left with an army of indistinguishable BMI-challenged women.
“Social progress is imperfect, full of half-truths and sloppy misrepresentations…Fighting for power is a complicated, messy process, especially for complicated, messy human beings. Often, the best we can hope for is that our efforts draw a spotlight.
Which, I guess, is enough to make SlutWalkers of us all.”
By this standard, the half-truths and sloppy misrepresentations of sex-positive feminism are a success. Their efforts have drawn a spotlight. That doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to look away.
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Oh, forgot to mention the time I got flashed on the subway. Yeah, that was totally cool.
It happens when a woman has second thoughts and says “Stop!” after sex has already begun. According to the law, a man is required to withdraw at that point, and failing to do so constitutes rape.
On Martha’s Vineyard, there are a couple of nude beaches. Once, when my kids were young, we went for a long walk and walked along the shore of one of them. I didn’t warn the kids, but suddenly, a rotund grandmother asked my 8 yo son to throw back her errant volleyball. He scampered to retrieve it, then noticed that she was nude, as were all the volleyball players – it appeared to be a multi-generational family game. I will never forget the look on his face. There was not a single body in that group that was worth looking at. *Shudder*
As a human being, I quite agree that we should respect each other enough to stop when asked.
As a cold, heartless being of pure logic, I can’t help but think there’s something very wrong here. 1) The time to say no is before he/she is in your “bed”. 2) It’s just plain impossible to deal with legally without insanely intrusive surveillance into all private areas. It’s just asking for bad law all around.
Hmmm… seems another case for my “what can be done vs what should be done” discussion (if I ever get around to it).
Alright, here’s another question.
Since, the law states that neither a man nor woman can consent when drunk. Who rapes who when both are having drunk sex?
ENFJ. Are you surprised?
I learned an important lesson from my first boss. He was incredibly gracious and friendly with everyone he encountered. He respected every other human being, and he was well liked by everyone in the building, from the maintenance men to the most senior executives. He had grown up poor in Oklahoma, and he never got ahead of himself.
Hey, me too! : )
Susan”
So now it’s not just promiscuity you have a problem with, but sex acts you find gross. Are going to make a chart about how golden showers lead to “EVENTUAL ECONOMIC STAGNATION!!!!!!!!!!”?
If anyone dared say something like that to my daughter in front of me I’d beat the living shit out of him.
If he was an employee of the DMV you could have immediately reported him to a manager.
@Matt C
The man rapes the woman, every time.
The man rapes the woman, every time.
Then why is the law even written that way? Why don’t they just say: “Women can’t consent when drunk, but men can,”?
I would like an explanation.
What if the woman was drunk and pulled a drunk guy back to an empty room and initiated sex with the guy? If she regrets having sex the next day, is that rape? She can’t consent while drunk from what the law says.
I want to hear your perspective.
“Aren’t alphas the men who don’t have to grab women and girls? ”
I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.
Did you tell your parents about this man who’s kids you babysat? Did they tell his wife?
Yohami, at least you admit the role of power. Many men on the internet are claiming that “rape is about power” is a Feminist myth.
Didn’t happen to me, happened to a girl sitting next to me while my dad and her mother were present. Her mother was stunned speechless. I don’t think the guy was an employee.
SayWhaat,
“I got it, but my point was that catcalls and other inappropriate behavior does persist today.”
With all due respect, this is a daft argument. Groping is a low-grade sexual assault, entirely different from shouts from the peanut gallery.
The original argument was against Susan’s claim that she hasn’t witnessed a catcall towards a woman in over 20 years. I listed some of the more awful acts that have happened to me and women I’ve seen over the past few years, but truthfully I do often receive many unwanted catcalls as well.
Oh, you may find this site interesting.
How Many Women Find Street Harassment Flattering?
“ENFJ. Are you surprised?”
Not by the E or the J, or that you are not an NT.
On your boss: You really don’t have to be a jerk. You just have to be no more beta than you are alpha. And guys who have been thinking about breaking out of the Nice Guy pattern would be good to recall that amiability and goodwill, as a social skill, is an alpha trait.
The difficulty is that so many beta guys have tried to trade being “nice” for the affections of women and the respect of men, and have predictably failed, so when they decide to change they can be very averse to being nice because it is associated with their past chumpitude.
Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another.
You said that
I was trying to educate you that American sensibilities are not transferable. You were the one that brought the cultures with a lot of catcalling and I told you that in this culture we don’t consider men expressing their sexuality a problem so big that no woman can solve in a personal basis.
There are cultures where such behaviour is not welcome and women are very uncomfortable with men expressing sexual desire in public.
So sex positivism is only about what women find comfortable and men desires are to be shamed, regulated and contained? Why sex positive people don’t just clarify this things and call themselves women’s sex positivism? It will solve so many issues, like unmet expectations.
Latino cultures are known for being, how shall I put it in a way that doesn’t offend, particularly sensual.
Be sexual but no be sensual is an interesting position for someone that is defending promiscuity.
Personally I have always found Latino men to be too emotional, too licentious, too lecherous, too macho and too possessive for my liking. I’ve never ever been attracted to them and have turned down many an offer.
What a coincidence. Me Too! The internet is so small.
I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.
Men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Gotcha.
Oh, you may find this site interesting.
How Many Women Find Street Harassment Flattering?
Wow, just wow. I’m convinced that this is a problem with American women.
I’ll give you a couple examples from my life:
When I was going to the gym one time, a couple guys waiting at a red light started berating me for looking like some faggot.
I was on my bike coming back from my salsa class and some guys yelled out how I was riding a girl’s bike.
One time in my gym class, a guy said I was one of the ugliest people he’s ever seen. Ironically, he was a very physically ugly person and I was SIGNIFICANTLY better looking than him.
I have a lot more instances like this.
Do I go online to bitch about this? No. It’s really a non-problem. Guys will shittalk from time to time and it is what it is.
Not for the entitled American Princess. Oh no. They gotta bitch and complain about how sometimes men will do crazy things.
“Didn’t happen to me, happened to a girl sitting next to me while my dad and her mother were present. Her mother was stunned speechless.”
This is the problem. Too many civilized people are stunned speechless in front of uncivilized barbarians when they need to start kicking ass.
Zero tolerance!
Have to say, the one place in western society i still regularly see really ugly behaviour towards women is passing by building sites – the catcalling, making the women walking past uncomfortable of themselves & their bodies.
I hate it, really hate it.
I just spent the night at a very heated shit storm at manboobz. The crowd over there is surreal.
@GudEnuf
I know how smart you are, so I can only assume you’re being deliberately obtuse. I don’t care who Ozy pees on. I just reject her position that I should respect the act peeing on someone’s head, or celebrate urine play as a fulfilling exploration of one’s sexuality.
The chart already includes that (as discussed in the thread), in the form of ridiculously wasteful government spending to produce sex ed materials that are inappropriate and irrelevant to the vast majority of teens.
@Matt C
The way most state laws are written, sexual consent cannot be granted if the woman is non compos mentis, and inebriation meets that standard. A drunk girl could literally jump on you, rip your jeans off, straddle you and claim you raped her. And she would have a case in most states. In reality, few of these cases are prosecuted, but the point is that they can be, according to state laws. Men are at great risk having sex with drunk women – in college this is high risk, now that the standard of proof has been diluted.
@White Cloud
I told my parents that he made me very uncomfortable in the car, and that I didn’t want to babysit for them anymore. They said OK. It was a different time. If that happened to my daughter I’d call the police immediately.
Are you sure that’s all they did? I know kids aren’t always aware of the full extent of what mommy and daddy do in their lives (even now, I’m still learning), but is possible that they confronted or took some other action to rectify the situation?
I’m curious because I think one of the problems with current society is that we’ve come to see the police as an option of first resort rather than a last resort option that our parents/grandparents might have. Both views and philosophies have (I think – still gathering data) an impact on society and laws.
Hi Susan,
Well, for me that action captured the eyes of the people just to express their sentiments. I think its not a good way to show concern about what had happened to the world lately especially to the women’s right and justice. There are still great things to do in order to be visible to everybody.
Male creepiness = female fatness/ugliness.
A fat girl hitting on you can make a guy uncomfortable.
Btw: The chick in the picture can only DREAM of being an object of desire. The only thing that can save her is the Lightswitch Makeover.
@rick
“Lightswitch Makeover”
dude. that’s precious. kudos.
You were placing urine play in the same category as polyamory. Now it’s no secret you think non-monogamy is bad for society, but how do you put urine play in the same category? Is it just because you think it’s gross?
Yahomi:
The Cuckolder in Chief has written an article titled: Why We Can’t Celebrate Male Sexuality…Yet
He basically says that men deserve to have their sexuality shamed because some men are rapists. Just like Muslims deserve to have their faith shamed because some Muslims are terrorists…oh wait, Hugo doesn’t actually believe that.
“The Cuckolder in Chief has written an article titled: Why We Can’t Celebrate Male Sexuality…Yet
He basically says that men deserve to have their sexuality shamed because some men are rapists. Just like Muslims deserve to have their faith shamed because some Muslims are terrorists…oh wait, Hugo doesn’t actually believe that.”
He’s a noob. He needs to turn in his testicles at the Man Depot….
Being that he’s now a devout Christian, I wouldn’t be surprised if he did believe that.
Why would he turn in something he’s using? let me make my point clear here, does anyone actually believe the whole found religion and feminism thing? from his obvious hypocrisy i’d say that’s just his cover while he keeps doing the same thing he did in before in the 90′s, way better strategy than “i was drunk and can’t remember” because women wearing the blindfold of feminism would actually support him for his BS instead of accusing him if he ever was called on it.
“Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another.”
Stephanie, where did I write anywhere about “American sensibilities”? I said, “all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another”.
That Dominican women think catcalling is no big deal and even welcome it is NOT transferable to the entire world.
Matt C,
Matt C, I never said men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Knock yourself out expressing your desire to your partner. I fully support that. The public sphere is not the place to express sexual desire to strangers, and in many cultures the public sphere is not the place to express sexual desire even to your spouse.
Again, that you received 2 or 22 unwanted comments from random guys over the course of your life riding a bike or whatever is not what I’m talking about. I clearly stated that when public space becomes DOMINATED by catcalls and other unwanted advances, then it is most def a case wherein organized social sanction is called for.
Convinced this is a “problem” only with American women? You’d be wrong. There are MANY cultures around the world wherein the “expression of sexual desire” in the public sphere is not socially acceptable. Sometimes even if that desire is mutal.
Why the problem with separating the public and private sphere? Are we so narcisstic that every little thought and “gimme-gimme-i-want” must be broadcast?
Can we just not talk too much about that twit hugo? Really I always though that a) hating on something you don’t like is a waste of energy/time/money and b) ignoring a clear attention whore is better than paying attention to him/her. He obviously gets off on thinking people are talking about him. Let’s pay him with our indifference, YMMV.
“I’ve known many men to see it, want it and take it. They are losers who cannot get laid via any normal route. They are loitering on street corners catcalling and grabbing women, like the examples SayWhaat gave above. We find them disgusting and our vaginas do not tingle for them.”
Matt C, “Men shouldn’t express their sexual desire in any way. Gotcha.”
I never implied that. Knock yourself expressing your sexual desire to your partner, in the privacy of your own space. I don’t wanna see sexual desire, even of the mutual kind, expressed in the pubic sphere. Sexual expression is meant for the private sphere, not the public. Its narcisstic to assume the entire world wants to see your sexual expression.
“Wow, just wow. I’m convinced that this is a problem with American women.”
You, like Stephanie, are grossly mistaken. There are MANY cultures around the world where catcalling strangers and even expression of sexual desire between couples in the public sphere are unwelcome and even considered subversive to the traditional social order.
“When I was going to the gym one time, a couple guys waiting at a red light started berating me for looking like some faggot.
I was on my bike coming back from my salsa class and some guys yelled out how I was riding a girl’s bike.
One time in my gym class, a guy said I was one of the ugliest people he’s ever seen. Ironically, he was a very physically ugly person and I was SIGNIFICANTLY better looking than him.
I have a lot more instances like this.
Do I go online to bitch about this? No. It’s really a non-problem. Guys will shittalk from time to time and it is what it is.
Not for the entitled American Princess. Oh no. They gotta bitch and complain about how sometimes men will do crazy things.”
Again, it has nothing to do with America.
That you were on the receiving end of unsolicited negative comments from random guys 2 or 22 times over the course of your life while riding a bike or going about other business is not relevant. I am not talking about something that happens time to time. I am talking about when public space becomes DOMINATED by catcalls or unsolicited negative comments. That is the time when organized social backlash is neccessary.
say whaaat re wtf.
.
i was making a crap joke by pretending to be your friend who was groped in public
”Stephanie, all cultures are not the same. What is acceptable in your culture may or may not be acceptable in another.”
Stephanie, ”I was trying to educate you that American sensibilities are not transferable. You were the one that brought the cultures with a lot of catcalling and I told you that in this culture we don’t consider men expressing their sexuality a problem so big that no woman can solve in a personal basis.”
LOL! Who said anything about “American sensibilities”?
That Dominican women don’t see catcalling as a big deal and even enjoy it is NOT transferable to every corner of the globe.
Susan said: “It happens when a woman has second thoughts and says “Stop!” after sex has already begun. According to the law, a man is required to withdraw at that point, and failing to do so constitutes rape.”
.
To Susan,
You have ignored my last raft of questions but I appreciate you may not have time required to respond to everything.
I do hope you can respond to this curve ball though….
.
You remember that frat guy you were fooling with and then had 2nd thoughts half way through?
If he had ‘insisted’ that events had taken the course as nature had intended would that have been rape?
LOL! Who said anything about “American sensibilities”?
That Dominican women don’t see catcalling as a big deal and even enjoy it is NOT transferable to every corner of the globe.
Of course how we see it is not transferable EITHER,you were the one that brought catcalling in other cultures. What was your point on that example then?
to any women here:
if you want to avoid cat calling or creepy behaviour avoid wearing dresses- or tight leggings.
.
I find wearing a dress even now has frankly ridiculous effects in guys. Consequently, even in the summer, I often don’t wear them.
.
Guys say things, supposedly under the breath, yet clearly audible- really sexually graphic stuff.
.
but its the gawping that is so …..I dunno…its hard to respect somebody thats drooling. Why do legs or a bum have such an impact?
.
And a tip for the guys- when a girl goes up to the bar and you stare at her ass you should know that due to window reflections or glassware reflections- she’s seeing you do it. And she’s also seeing you do it to all the other girls in the room.
.
And you are going home ALONE- I can assure you.
“You remember that frat guy you were fooling with and then had 2nd thoughts half way through?
If he had ‘insisted’ that events had taken the course as nature had intended would that have been rape?”
Fooling with a frat boy? Ugh.
You’ve never found yourself transfixed by a work of art?
You may as well ask why people like to gaze at majestic scenery or beautiful works of art.
Not that I’m saying women are the equivalent (well… some might be), but if you have to ask why another human being enjoys looking at something beautiful, then one is forced to conclude that you are neither a human being nor have you spent much time around them.
Not that I’m saying women are the equivalent (well… some might be), but if you have to ask why another human being enjoys looking at something beautiful, then one is forced to conclude that you are neither a human being nor have you spent much time around them.
Nah I think she is just a straight woman. Us possessors of bums and legs don’t think they are the big deal.
But then women can drool at the sight of a very beautiful man so maybe we should ask her if she ever saw a man that made her drool. I know I have.
That’s exactly what I meant. If she’s done the same, then surely it won’t be that hard to grasp why.
While I know no girls check me out (because my true form crushes sanities), I at least get the principle of them doing so (well to other guys at least).
@Nate
It is possible, but my parents were not exactly helicopter parents. Some readers may recall my recent description of what our family life looked like after my mother took an “assertiveness training” course, which happened at around the same time. There was one year my parents forgot my birthday entirely. There was a lot of dysfunction in American families happening at that time, and the divorce rate soared. Amazingly, my own parents did not divorce, though I felt certain they would. Ultimately they became friends again. But I’m not exaggerating to describe life at that time like a Philip Roth novel, the movie The Ice Storm, or an episode of Mad Men. At least for the middle class.
@Susan – you have my sympathies.
That seems… odd (yet strangely appropriate) that your mother after this “assertiveness training” (I recall that thread) seems to have taken out more on your dad than on a man legitimately in need of some assertive confrontation. Maybe less odd and more ironic. I’m sure there’s some thought you can pull a blog post out of there.
@GudEnuf
That’s only because Ozy has written blog posts on those two topics recently. That was not intended as a general comment for everyone, it was addressed directly to Ozy because these are two choices she has made. When she says her choices should be respected and celebrated, I object to the notion that I should celebrate either or both of those things if they are not in keeping with my own values. I should be free to say, “Ewww, gross!” about urine play without being called intolerant, biased, narrow minded, etc. In fact, I’d rather not know about Ozy’s private sex acts at all, but such is the world of blogging.
Amen, you know exactly what you’re talking about; nailed it! No one needs to see these foolish women, clothed or otherwise, and we don’t need to know who they give it to. Nor do I care to see heavy women, skinny nerd-looking women or multi-colored clownish women shouting about how they’ll give it to anyone, should anyone ask. Ugh.
Actually, I don’t remember. I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. The guy with the micropenis? It’s true we were fooling around, but I never said I intended to have sex with him. I just said that we stopped suddenly when I couldn’t find his penis. Anyway, yes, if this theoretical person had insisted on sex by overpowering me physically it would most certainly have been rape. Just insisting with words is no big deal, I’ve dealt with that many times, lol.
I was going to say it was very different then (1977), but he was actually a douche. So I’m guilty as charged.
Sue,
“I was going to say it was very different then (1977), but he was actually a douche. So I’m guilty as charged.”
Ugh
I think it’s pretty funny that most of the women participating in slutwalks are pretty low on the SMV ladder. Probably because attractive women have no need to slut it up.
There are a lot of misconceptions about perpetrators of rape because much of the early profiling involved pathological rapists. That is, men who were predatory serial rapists. Of these, several types do seem to be motivated by a desire for power and control, but they don’t constitute the majority of rapists. There are also recognized types that appear to be motivated by a desire for intimacy. They’re often caught because they give the victims personal information about themselves a/o try to contact them again.
Yes. Rape is often opportunistic. The claim that rape is about power, or control, or some other imbalance in the social hierarchy is really just an attempt to shoehorn rape into a dialectic analysis of gender.
Great. Another mixed message. Susan tells us on her Summertime Femininity Challenge that we should wear pretty dresses this season, the guys all agree, and now you come with this. Wear a dress and get unwanted catcalls. Dress frumpy and get called a horrible manly woman who hates men and doesn’t know her role in life. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
Regarding all the fat and ugly low SMV Slut Walkers, HELLO! That’s the whole point of Slut Walk! To show that no matter what we look like, how we dress, whether we are hot or not, simply being how we are is not asking for it!
Matt C,
It seems like you’re jumping the gun here a bit and going to extremes, perhaps being a bit too dramatic even. To me it makes sense that women may not respond too positively to some person she doesn’t know catcalling her in a crude, graphic manner and/or grabbing at her per White Cloud’s example. I’m sure that you’re aware of better, more public appropiate ways of expressing sexual desire. Like simple eye contact, a whistle, a hello, etc. Heck, a honk from a passing car is ok.
And I don’t know about you, but being insulted and called names vs being catcalled and grabbed at seem like apples and oranges to me.
The whole slut walk is based around a police officer telling women,”If you don’t want to get raped, don’t dress like a slut.”
Overall, though, the feminists failed at spreading the message. This is similar to the “Take Back the Night” parades they have– it’s just an excuse to walk around and shout for attention. It isn’t doing anything to help victims of assault, and neither will this slut walk. In fact, it might only make it worse, because people will argue against them for the sake of them being feminists, and therefore stupid.
What feminists should be doing is sharing the statistics with people. The FACTS. The fact that in only 4.5% of cases of rape, the victim was doing something which could be considered provocative, as opposed to 22% of cases of murder. The fact that 1 in 3 college men have stated that they would rape a girl if they knew they wouldn’t get caught (which they won’t in the environment we have, an environment where if a girl drinks or spends time alone with a male she must also consent to having sex with him, and if she didn’t, it’s her fault for being alone with him in the first place, even if he was a long time friend). The fact that most rapists put on trial don’t remember what their victim was wearing. The fact that most victims are wearing things like jeans or pajamas when they’re assaulted. The fact that most victims are assaulted in a familiar place like their own home or their rapists’ home or a neighbor’s home. The fact that nearly 3/4 of all rapes are premeditated.
People are going to victim blame. It’s called the just world hypothesis and it applies to everything from robberies to cancer to natural disasters to rape. It’s this naive belief that bad things can’t happen to good people, or that bad things can’t happen to people unless they were in some way asking for it. Every woman I know has done something that has put her “at risk” for getting raped, whether it’s being alone with a boy, talking to a strange man they had just met, drinking, wearing a skirt, walking alone at night, walking alone during the day, walking alone on an empty street at night or during the day, leaving her door unlocked, etc. One of the first things I learned at a Bible study group, and this was in response to people victim blaming the individuals from the Haiti earthquake (yes, they were victim blaming people over a natural disaster. SMH), was to ask myself why God had spared me of being a victim from other natural disasters. Victim blaming was covered in the Bible. And the Just world hypothesis was also refuted in the Book of Job. God already did these feminists’ jobs, so why don’t they just take a rest with the slut walk and stop ruining things for everyone?
WTF – is this for real?
OMG Susan that micropenis story made my day.
“OMG Susan that micropenis story made my day.”
LOL. Yea, it was the only enjoyable detail in an otherwise depressing tale.
Yohami,
I’ve found the statistic several times, I can check up on it to see sample size and who the population group was (ie what university (s) the study was conducted at) to get a better idea of what’s going on, but it is real. That’s the frightening part. After seeing those statistics, I wonder why people even try to victim blame and I realize that if that percentage of men who would rape a woman if they could is even nearly that high (assuming the study isn’t 100% accurate) it is in their best interest for victim blaming to continue. So there will continue to be low reporting rates and low conviction rates and they can keep getting away with it.
1 in 3 guys is admitely pro rape? – which would bring the real, unreported number close to 50% of males being pro rape / a rape waiting to happen?
Need some data on that “fact”
Please find it again? without data it sounds like a scary tale.
Right, so now the “victim blaming” is done by the rapists themselves. So maybe that cop who called on the sexy clothing is a rapist himself. And the jurors, and the judge, so they all can keep raping. Nice.
Great. Another mixed message. Susan tells us on her Summertime Femininity Challenge that we should wear pretty dresses this season, the guys all agree, and now you come with this. Wear a dress and get unwanted catcalls. Dress frumpy and get called a horrible manly woman who hates men and doesn’t know her role in life. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
It seems women here are hyper-focused on all the negatives.
You want to know a positive to wearing a dress? You will be more attractive. Being more attractive increases your chance of being approached by an attractive man.
By golly it seems that everything in life has good and bad attributes. Of course, this sense of entitlement I’m feeling from some of the comments gets in the way of having a positive attitude about this.
1 in 3 guys is admitely pro rape? – which would bring the real, unreported number close to 50% of males being pro rape / a rape waiting to happen?
Need some data on that “fact”
What do you think about the “1 in 4 women are raped in their lifetime” statistic?
I’m curious of your opinion on that statistic.
Hey Susan.
Is there any chance the guy was actually a woman on transition? I don’t have much experience with penises but not finding it…sounds like too much like an anomaly from what I heard.
Ok, not everyone, not everyone. I’m just saying that a vocal fraction of men might actually have either:
1) Some very mistaken beliefs about consent.
2) A large amount of sexual frustration.
3) A mental disorder where they derive sexual pleasure from forcing a woman.*
And the statistic is from the book Campus Crime: Legal, Social, and Policy Perspectives, written by a Sloan and Fisher. Sorry, I kept finding it on flyers but at the bottom they would cite their sources. Can do more digging if you need to.
http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php
“8% of men admit committing acts that meet the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Of these men who committed rape, 84% said that what they did was definitely not rape. ”
*Again, feminists fail in that they reduce rape to power and control (which it can be, but not always), and the sphere and most people fail in that they reduce rape into the biological act of sex (which it always isn’t because, according to studies, rapists don’t always ejaculate…). Psychologists basically have multiple reasons, for why it happens. All are disturbing.
Matt C,
That would mean that 25% of the women were have been raped. In Susan´s family, 25% of her relatives being raped. 25% of all the women I have interacted, being raped. I did a party at my apartment last week and abou 20 females came, so, 5 of them being raped, etc. I dont see it.
Maybe they are including all kinds of uncomfortable experiences as “rape” to inflate the number.
But, lets say 30% of men are rapists. Rapist are usually serial, they rape more than one women on their lifetime. If the media was 3 rapes during a lifetime, that would lead to 90% of all women being raped. Including your mom, and mine, and pretty much every woman you know.
I need to see where is this stuff coming from.
*That would mean that 25% of the women here have been raped.
…but that’s just it! So many men these days are incapable of expressing their interest in a socially appropriate manner.
I don’t dress like a slut, go clubbing late at night, or participate in promiscuous activities. I’m a classy well behaved young woman.
- yet I somehow manage to have a ridiculously long list of creepy things men have done to me. Like, in broad daylight, I’ve had businessmen in suits who look like they should know better proposition me for sex, offer to take me shopping [I assume in exchange for sex], inappropriately touch me…this one time I had a guy approach me and inquire about the color of my panties.
Following a creepy-incident, I’m always left wondering “What is wrong with this man? Doesn’t he realize how creepy he is?” I don’t think creepy guys even realize most women find their behavior creepy.
Actually, a significant amount of men seem to absolutely love the Southern California-laid back messy hair-sorta frumpy look. I’ve noticed I get a lot more male attention when I’m just wearing flip-flops, baggy sweats and a tank-top. I think casually dressed women seem more approachable to men.
cough.
http://www.oneinfourusa.org, men against rape? theres a picture with 20 guys there. 4 of them have raped, 2 more of them are pro rape as long as they dont get caught?
35% of the guys on this blog are pro rape? really?
Do we need mass castration and gas chambers?
The statistic isn’t that 1 in 3 men are rapists, it’s that 1 in 3 said they would if they could. 1 in 15 have done things that fit the legal definition of rape. Most of them don’t believe they actually raped.
If you also read the website it states more specifically that 15% of college women survive rape. I think the 1 in 4 includes attempted rape, not “uncomfortable experiences.” If you were to include uncomfortable experiences I think the statistic would inflate to nearly 100%. Every woman has those.
I do believe the statistic. I know a lot of people that unfortunately have been in that…situation. You’re a man, a woman would probably avoid telling you because it’s something that would lower her in your eyes and ruin her SMV. I’m not saying that that’s what should happen, I’m saying that that’s what does happen. Being realistic.
Also, again, before people start saying that girls that are raped are sluts and asking for it, notice the statistic that states that nearly half were virgins at the time. k thanks.
The link says 1 in 5 men already raped, 3 in 5 could if given a chance.
@Butterfly Flower:
I know what you mean. Virtually every girl has at least one creepy story about some loser. I’ve spent all day fixing my computer because I got hacked by some loser I rejected. I feel ya girrrl.
(And what is it with the casual look? I feel like I can go out and wear a dress and heels and no one looks at me. And then I go to the grocery store in soffes and a baggy shirt and randos come up and talk to me. wth?)
The statistic isn’t that 1 in 3 men are rapists, it’s that 1 in 3 said they would if they could. 1 in 15 have done things that fit the legal definition of rape. Most of them don’t believe they actually raped.
If you also read the website it states more specifically that 15% of college women survive rape. I think the 1 in 4 includes attempted rape, not “uncomfortable experiences.” If you were to include uncomfortable experiences I think the statistic would inflate to nearly 100%. Every woman has those.
I do believe the statistic. I know a lot of people that unfortunately have been in that…situation. You’re a man, a woman would probably avoid telling you because it’s something that would lower her in your eyes and ruin her SMV. I’m not saying that that’s what should happen, I’m saying that that’s what does happen. Being realistic.
Also, again, before people start saying that girls that are raped are sluts and asking for it, notice the statistic that states that nearly half were virgins at the time. k thanks.
This means that any woman who had sex while drunk got raped. That is actually what the 1 in 4 statistic used to include the number of women who got raped.
Do you honestly believe that women who have sex while drunk are getting raped, even IF they initiate sex? Do you believe that?
After reader some of the male bloggers out there, I totally believe those statistics. When many men approach even consensual sex from a point of anger and power struggle, you know that rape for them is not entirely out of the question. Then you’ve got the men who download rape porn. Oh boy.
@Butterfly Power
Creepy = unwanted and inappropriate attention
…but that’s just it! So many men these days are incapable of expressing their interest in a socially appropriate manner.
The problem is that even the term “socially appropriate” is very subjective. Whose social appropriateness? If the woman’s, then which woman? Just because you have a certain definition and/or criteria for “creepy” does not mean all or even most women will share your criteria? On top of that, there’s the cultural changes over the past 40 or so years – a lot of them VERY contradictory. How can so many women say a run of the mill so-called “loser” guy (as in fashion image and “irritating but non-rude mannerisms, plus non-telegenic lifestyle to boot) be called “creepy” for approaching her; yet at the same time be seduced by the douchebag who says “you make me jizz in my pants”, stick her tongue in her ear within 2 minutes of meeting her at a club, etc.?
(Not to put words into your mouth, or tell you what you ought to think..but to provide one answer that’s at least semi-true)
The only way I know of to reconcile these is to say she’s frankly an image bigot who doubles as a whore – not just mere non-attraction to the “irritating” guy, but a downright BIGOTED beliefs toward anything with even moderate superficial un-appeal. And, of course, she’ll sleep with any guy that gets her panties wet. Nothing in human nature prevents a person from being both at the same time, after all.
I’m not saying YOU are like that, nor the great majority of women. However, it is a fairly common occurrence.
What all the above means
That proves that BOTH genders have to think long and hard about just who they choose to not only hook up with or date….but even have for same gendered friends. After all, the latter heavily influences which potential romantic interests we DO cross our life’s paths with. As I said a few of Susan’s blog articles ago, apparently you CAN judge people by the company they keep. In fact, I’ll go further and say that you reveal what your values and life’s priorities are by whom you choose to have as your friends…and whom you choose as your heroes besides, and the kinds of books you read, etc.
White,
Is that 1 in 3 male blogs? links?
This is for Susan.
Three years ago, I was living in Europe. During my time over there. I (hypothetically) enjoyed the attentions of more than a few women between the ages of 27-45 who were in open relationships (hypothetically, I enjoyed their attentions due to the lack of ambiguity.) I also attended more than my share of beaches and pools (the majority of which were either top-optional or nude, and I visited them due to the lack of air conditioning on the Continent.) In my experience, FKK (from naturists to actual swingers) people are no more likely to be ugly/unattractive than anyone else. Then again, I don’t know any American dabblers. If the alternative lifestylers in the US are as unkempt and unfit as their vanilla counterparts, then I apologise.
Then you’ve got the men who download rape porn. Oh boy.
Do you know that rape fantasy are common among women too? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean
After reader some of the male bloggers out there, I totally believe those statistics. When many men approach even consensual sex from a point of anger and power struggle, you know that rape for them is not entirely out of the question. Then you’ve got the men who download rape porn. Oh boy.
Here’s some sobering information for your misandrist view of society. When the 1 in 4 study was looked at more closely it was found:
“The Toledo reporters calculated that if you eliminate the affirmative responses to the alcohol or drugs question, and also subtract from Koss’s results the women who did not think they were raped, her one in four figure for rape and attempted rape “drops to between one in twenty-two and one in thirty-three.”[25]”
Source: http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html
So IN REALITY, AT MOST, 4% of the female population at colleges are getting raped and I’m convinced that it is even smaller than that.
This flies in the face of the statistic that 33% of men in college want to rape women. If 33% of men in college wanted to rape women then wouldn’t more than 4% of females get raped?
See, I’m curious more about what was the “set up”. For instance, if you ask a guy “would you rape if you could get away with it” is he thinking about just any random person or a level 10 model/actress – a highly desirable woman. Whereas I’d be willing to bet that statistic would fall if you made it clear their only “opening” would be a highly undesirable woman (ugly, old, underage, whatever).
I’d like to see this study done with accompanying pictures. Including headshots alone (some with makeup/photoshop to make them more beautiful, some “plain” or photoshopped to make them more ugly) and full body shots of the same women dressed in various outfits.
Also, as pointed out here, what was the definition of ‘rape’ used? Are the interviewees being asked about forceful taking while the victim screams and protests? Or more of a girl is inebriated kind? Quite frankly, with some of the legal definitions of rape, it would be just as likely for 1 in 3 girls to go for it if they could get away with it. I’d like to see a similar study with girls done considering all the factors I mentioned above.
And that’s all ignoring the tendency of college guys to be kind of “trolls” and whether or not some of them would answer affirmative just to laugh at the researchers (but might not do something when actually confronted with it).
As demonstrated here?
@MattC:
Where did it state that that was included in the statistic? In addition, do you think that those cases make up the majority of rapes?
I do not think that if a woman has a few drinks, then consents to sex, it is rape. However, I don’t think the situation is as black and white as,”A stranger jumps out of a bush with a knife and forces himself on a woman!” I’ve had things happen to friends that would fit in the “gray” areas. ie one friend had a male friend she had known walk her back one night because he was worried she wouldn’t make it back okay. When she got back to her room he forced himself on her. She never reported it, but it was rape, and it took months before she admitted that it was rape because she felt that admitting it would be admitting she was weak. I have another friend who was left behind by “friends” at a party after passing out on a couch and things happened to her. The next day she got plan B but didn’t report it. In both cases these girls weren’t sober, but I do believe that in both cases, crimes happened. Another friend of mine was knocked unconscious (in public) and when her friends moved her to a couch to make sure she was okay, the same idiot who knocked her unconscious tried to force himself on her. I couldn’t believe my ears when I heard this, and there were witnesses. I do believe that what happened there was at the least, assault, and at the worst, attempted rape. She spent the day in a hospital with a concussion (yes this happened during the day).
Girls also have to be careful because, since offenders know that roofies and GHB can be detected via testing, medications like klonopin and xanax are being used as an alternate date rape drug. In addition, mixed drinks may contain everclear instead of vodka, essentially to render potential victims unconscious more quickly. I do think if someone is drugged unwillingly or unconscious, it is rape.
I don’t know anyone who ever claimed that having drunken sex was rape (besides feminists on a website). I’ve heard more of the cases I’ve just described, and the judicial authority on campus stated that most of the cases they deal with involve male “friends” that get “frustrated” and won’t take it anymore from these “sluts.”
This flies in the face of the statistic that 33% of men in college want to rape women. If 33% of men in college wanted to rape women then wouldn’t more than 4% of females get raped?
How exactly did the study define “wanting to commit rape”? When a man wants to walk up to an attractive woman, undress her, and proceed to have sex with her?
…uh, isn’t that a normal male thought?
When I’m with my boyfriend, I’m sure he spends a lot of time thinking about taking off my clothes and ravishing me. That doesn’t make him a potential rapist.
[I need to remember to refresh the page before I post]
@Nate: I agree with you. If the study’s definition of rape was cloudy or misleading, then the statistics are useless.
@Nate: I agree with you. If the study’s definition of rape was cloudy or misleading, then the statistics are useless.
Well this organizations receive a lot of money to “prevent rape” the moment they don’t have numbers to back it up, they are going to probably get cut. So I think that is why they keep broading the definition of rape, as rape (forced sexual relationship in the original sense of the word) is becoming less and less common to make sure that as long there is heterosexual males there is going to be some way to consider any act with a female rape. If this trend continue you will find that in a few years “staring” will be count as rape too.
@Matt C:
I have a female friend who was forcibly raped and didn’t believe she was because she knew the individual who did it. In terms of statistics of girls who do not believe they were raped, I’d like to see how many said they don’t believe they were raped for reasons like:
a) they knew the individual
b) they were wearing a short skirt/top with cleavage/other revealing outfit
c) they were intoxicated (even if they said no over and over and did not consent to sex ever)
d) they were unconscious
because I have friends who did not believe they were “truly raped” for these reasons, yet went on to suffer psychological repercussions all the same, to the point where one nearly failed out of school because the guy was in her classes. The other talked about suicide.
I’m just curious.
And I think the 1 in 3 statistic is legit, though there might be a few trolls, and also take into account that most guys won’t do it, either because of guilt, or because of x,y,z reason. I think most guys, to look tough, for example, say they’ll be able to kill someone if they had to (in self defense) yet I think most won’t. I think the same would go for rape. A large number say they would, very few actually would. I had a friend who was doing training to be a student counselor, and while they were playing an ethics game (which involved standing on one side of the room for yes, and the other for no) nearly every man (and some women) believed that if a girl said no to sex, she did not really mean it. There have to be some official statistics on this.
@Nate Winchester:
Girls probably wouldn’t do it. First of all, it isn’t in women’s nature to be violent. This is why more men commit murders as well, along with violent crimes. This is also why it’s so easy to abuse or rape a woman. Well, you would think not easy (for psychological reasons), but we’re assuming a sick or socially handicapped individual here. Second of all, women don’t really think in terms of sex the way men do, or as often as men do. Thirdly, it’s easier for a woman to obtain sex if she does.
@Stephenie Rowling:
A woman’s rape fantasy can be turned off at any time.
The reality of rape, is that if you are raped, you don’t get to choose your aggressor, you don’t get to choose how or where it happens, you don’t get to choose whether he has HIV or herpes or other STD’s, or whether you get pregnant or not, you don’t get to choose how it happens, or scream,”Safe word!” to get him to stop.
A fantasy can be turned on or off or controlled. Rape can’t. That’s what makes it rape.
stormy,
Re: your friends. Of course some women get raped. It happens. We are talking about statistics.
Bad reasoning. There´s no “rape on self defense”. One doesnt say “yes I will rape if I needed to” to look tough. Thats feminist nonsense – reaching to strawman fallacy by now.
Wrong.
The point Stephie did was that some women also consume rape porn, in response a white who pointed that some males consume rape porn.
You´re starting to sound brainwashed. Quit college.
A fantasy can be turned on or off or controlled. Rape can’t. That’s what makes it rape.
Oh what I meant was that WC was accusing men that download porn of being potential rapists. I just mentioned this because having a rape fantasy doesn’t mean that you will actually want it to, or plan for it to happen in real life. Of course I know fantasies are fantasies I just meant that men shouldn’t be accused of being potential rapists because of downloading rape porn, YMMV.
Filrabrat, I agree with you about the arbitrariness of what constitutes creepy or not creepy and the conflicting messages sent to men. I think there needs to be a Charm School for Teenage Boys so they can learn how to approach girls in an attractive and socially acceptable way. Of course some basic standards would have to be agreed upon what is attractive and socially acceptable.
But we women get constant mixed messages from the media, society and men too. Just here on this blog Susan advised us to wear pretty dresses this summer, the men thumbs upped that and then a commenter recently posts that if we want to avoid disrespectful catcalls, DON’T wear dresses. That dresses somehow “rev” men up. Of course if men get revved up its our fault. We dressed that way on purpose. Maybe next time we shouldn’t look so delicious and then we won’t get bothered. OK. So then we dress down and get called un-feminine slobs brainwashed by the misandrist media who know nothing about womanhood or what it takes to attract a good man. Moreover we’re on a campaign to stomp out feminine beauty and “force” all beta men into accepting unattractive women as cuckholded fathers of other men’s children, after we’re done riding the alpha cock carousel of course!
Then of course there’s all the claims that men like good girls with self-control but then we see them happily coverting with the “hot” girls, good or bad, self-control or no control. Character be damned. Then when the hot girls break their hearts they get online and complain that all women are heartless bitches and gosh by golley they are going to become players now! And its not their fault if an innocent woman falls in love with them and they dump her – its “womens fault” for being hypergamous bitches in the first place. The poor girl has to cut her losses and move on.
I tell you if I was never confused and bewildered in my entire life, I certainly am now!
Girls probably wouldn’t do it. First of all, it isn’t in women’s nature to be violent. This is why more men commit murders as well, along with violent crimes. This is also why it’s so easy to abuse or rape a woman. Well, you would think not easy (for psychological reasons), but we’re assuming a sick or socially handicapped individual here. Second of all, women don’t really think in terms of sex the way men do, or as often as men do. Thirdly, it’s easier for a woman to obtain sex if she does.
Hmm, then I wonder why about 40% of domestic abuse is reported to happen to males? Hmm…
Here’s another interesting report:
http://www.mediaradar.org/mcdowell_kanin_credible.php
“Even so, McDowell worried that his findings might not be representative outside a military context. So he then analyzed the police records of a major midwestern city and a city in the southwest. The results in those cities were consistent with the results of the Air Force analysis. But the cities feared political repercussions if it were publicly announced that 60% of reported rape allegations were false, so they requested anonymity.”
Maybe, just maybe, men aren’t the monsters you believe them to be. And, just follow me here, women aren’t perfect little angels.
I believe most people, men and women, are good at heart. It just makes me so angry how demonized men have been made out to be and how everyone seems to believe that women are the only ones who can be victims of any wrongdoing.
@ButterflyFlower:
At what point did you mix up the word “sex” with the word “rape?”
If a man were to PROCEED TO HAVE SEX with a woman, then it would be consensual. She would be CONSENTING. If your boyfriend imagines that, he imagines you CONSENTING to having sex with him. He ISN’T imagining raping you.
Rape involves a woman saying she doesn’t want to have sex, or incapable of consent (ie sleeping, unconscious, a child, or unable to consent due to a mental disability of sorts…). So if these 1 in 3 men were truly thinking rape, then they were thinking of either:
a) having intercourse with (more like to, with implies that both are participating) someone unconscious
b) forcibly raping a woman
c) fucking a retard
This isn’t misandry, men. You did this to yourself. Next time a survey comes around, don’t say yes!
@MattC:
And again, just because a woman doesn’t feel she was raped, because it was “her fault” for one of the reasons I stated above, doesn’t mean she wasn’t. Imagine all the women who are abused, and stay with their abusive husbands because “I had it coming. I shouldn’t have looked him in the eye. I deserved being punched.” Imagine all the children who are sexually molested (most rapists have a history of being molested) and don’t say anything, because they think it’s right, and they’ll trust anyone older than them. Most girls are raped by someone they know. Most women who are raped, are young when it happens, and are probably away from home for the first time in their lives. They might even still be home! Most of the time, it happens in their own homes. Most of the time, it’s with someone they know. Nearly half the time, they’re virgins. Half the time, it’s on a date.
Their whole lives they were raised in a world that says,”Be liberated! Dress however you want! Wear makeup! Go out on dates without a chaperone! Girls and boys can be just friends! It’s normal for friends to be alone together!” Then the world turns around and says,”You were raped? Why were you wearing that skirt? Why were you out on a date? Why did you have that wine? Why were you friends with a boy? Did you flirt with him? Why were you alone with him? Why did you let him into your home? (or) Why did you go home with him?”
What is she supposed to think? Clearly, she was attacked. Clearly, someone forced himself on her. Clearly, she did something wrong. Because if it’s her fault her forced himself on her, then she should have known better. All men are violent. All men are aggressive. All men are potential rapists. No woman should be alone, ever. Correct?
Stormy,
Questioning the victim is not the same as blaming the victim.
What separates rape from regular sex is lack of consent. To determine a rape occurred you have to demostrate there was lack of consent. This is easier or harder to prove depending on the scenario. You cant take the victim´s word as a rule, since people regularly lie.
So what kind of stuff would you investigate, ask, gather data about, to prove lack of consent? Or would you just take the victim´s word as proof?
You have lost touch with reality.
Also, wanted to say on my previous comment that I don’t believe that 60% of rape allegations are false. I just don’t believe that as many as 98% are true (feminist statistic).
Interestingly enough, the 60% of rape allegations are false, came from a more objective standpoint than the 2% are false one.
I’m not going to click on the female rape fantasy link for the following reasons;
1. I can tell you that the studies were done in, at most, a small handful of western countries such as USA, UK, Cananda, Australia or Germany or someplace near.
2. The sample size is small, ranging anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand women.
3. The so-called “rape” is actually a fantasy of alluring seduction and passionate consensual sex with a highly attractive man that the woman desires.
The above 3 factors get misleadingly get called “rape” and an internet meme of “all women around the world from Zimbabwe to Peru, Tibet to Polynesia, get off on rape fantasies”
Now, if you want to see a “rape fantasy” then download some “rape porn” and see what some men are jacking off too. Ever seen a snuff film? Prepare yourself to throw up, have nightmares and be psychologically disturbed for days.
@MattC:
I’m not saying that nothing can happen to men. A surprisingly high percentage of men do get raped. And I realize that if a man is raped (by a woman, especially), he’s going to face some difficulties. He’s going to be called weak. He’s going to be emasculated. He mgiht not be taken seriously. I think victim blaming needs to be stopped all around, which is why I referenced the Bible earlier. People need Jesus.
But these statistics are true. Men are more violent. Single men are more violent. These statistics are valuable because they can tell us more about violence in a demographic in which people are postponing marriage or just cancelling it out of their future plans completely. And it can also tell us a lot about countries like India and China which are starting to have extremely skewed sex ratios (and increased violence). Men are more likely to murder (though usually the victims are male as well), men are more likely to rape, men are more likely to commit violent crimes. Men are more likely to die young from stupid risky activities (drugs, bad driving, etc.) Men are more likely to kill their stepchild (if it’s under the age of 5). This doesn’t justify the behavior. It doesn’t say that all men are murderers, or that all men are rapists, or that all men are violent. But it can help us understand and manage crime and find ways to deal with the target populations. It can hopefully get certain societies to avoid skewing the gender ratio one way or the other (America might be skewing slightly female). It can help us understand hyper behavior in young boys and to get schools to stop overdiagnosing them with learning disabilities and ADHD. It’s also a case for encouraging marriage, since married people tend to be less crazy than single ones, all around.
And yes, recently, there have been rising incidences of female violence. Some studies show that the gender differences in terms of crime might be societally determined rather than hormonally determined, but they have small sample sizes and we have yet to see any more evidence.The thing is, if you’re going to accept that they are societally determined, then you have to accept that many other “female” and “male” behaviors, the good ones, are societally determined as well.
And, as a side note, I don’t hate men. Not at all. Personally I want ot have lots of kids, with at least 3 being boys. It’ll be funny.
“People need Jesus.”
and I’m here for them, brightstormyday.
At what point did you mix up the word “sex” with the word “rape?” If a man were to PROCEED TO HAVE SEX with a woman, then it would be consensual. She would be CONSENTING
I didn’t mix up the definitions of the words. However, the “Potential Rapist” statistic study may have asked misleading questions.
For all we know the study could have interpreted “thinking about having sex with an attractive woman” as “wanting to rape an attractive woman”.
My boyfriend thinks about taking my clothes off; using those guidelines, doesn’t that make him a “potential rapist”?
& on the topic of Rapists, I will link to an informative 20 year old NY Times article that profiled actual sentenced rapists: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/10/science/new-studies-map-the-mind-of-the-rapist.html?src=pm
But these statistics are true. Men are more violent. Single men are more violent. These statistics are valuable because they can tell us more about violence in a demographic in which people are postponing marriage or just cancelling it out of their future plans completely. And it can also tell us a lot about countries like India and China which are starting to have extremely skewed sex ratios (and increased violence). Men are more likely to murder (though usually the victims are male as well), men are more likely to rape, men are more likely to commit violent crimes. Men are more likely to die young from stupid risky activities (drugs, bad driving, etc.) Men are more likely to kill their stepchild (if it’s under the age of 5). This doesn’t justify the behavior. It doesn’t say that all men are murderers, or that all men are rapists, or that all men are violent. But it can help us understand and manage crime and find ways to deal with the target populations. It can hopefully get certain societies to avoid skewing the gender ratio one way or the other (America might be skewing slightly female). It can help us understand hyper behavior in young boys and to get schools to stop overdiagnosing them with learning disabilities and ADHD. It’s also a case for encouraging marriage, since married people tend to be less crazy than single ones, all around.
I guess we just need to make a pill that gets rid of that pesky testosterone that turns men into sex crazed violent freaks.
brightstormyday
I don’t think you hate men, but I think your personal experiences are coloring your views. I’m really sorry for what happened to your friends. But women are to be judged in an individual basis. I think you are seeing the face of your friends every time you see a woman claiming that she was raped. The truth is that even though women are not as physically violent as men, mostly because women’s body are important to preserve to pass on the genes, they are more prone to psychological violence that can end in physical violence depending on the circumstances. Google the Mean Girls phenomenon for an example of women doing horrible things to each other.
Many women will feel ashamed of being raped, but many women will use it as a batch of the “victim-hood order” and some others will lie to appeal to people’s sympathies.
I know is hard but trying to remember that women are humans too with virtues and defects and not all women are like your friend might help.
Check this: http://www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
There is a growing number of women that are crying rape for whatever reason. Again this is not an attempt to shame but to learn to separate the facts from the feelings in something that indeed hurts women, but every time a man is accused of rape he will be hurt to, sometimes even if proven innocent, YMMV.
@MattC:
I was quoting statistics. Statistics aren’t losing touch with reality. Do you want me to put in the exact numbers? I’m talking about the most likely scenario. (I’ve seriously quoted these stats so many times…)
Also, I thought it was 8% that were false, according to an article you (or someone, darnit) posted?
@Yohami:
I’m not talking about police question. In addition, sexual history has been banned from being asked, along with (I believe) what the victim was wearing. Studies have shown that most rapists don’t remember what their victims were wearing regardless, so it’s most likely not a factor.
Evidence would have to involve a lot of things. A rape kit would be used as evidence. I believe in cases of violence and abuse photographic evidence of bruises and violence could be used. If the man admitted anything or threatened the girl via text message or email or any other traceable media, then that would be used as evidence; similarly if a girl sends an email saying,”Great sex last night!” then cries rape, well then… People who serve as a judgment of character could be evidence, for both the man and the woman (ie I’ve know him my whole life and he never would…). I’m guessing also if the victim shows signs of trauma and this can be verified by a certified psychologist then that would be evidence as well. And if there were witnesses who heard or saw anything during, or saw the aftermath, well…
I’m speculating, also basing this on things I’ve read. There’s a lot of evidence that can be provided. I’m not talking necessarily about police questioning, I’m talking about family members, friends, the media, the manosphere, this whole country essentially making a victim relive their experience. I’m all for pinning liars to the wall. I’m not for treating all women like liars because of it. Similarly, I’m all for throwing rapists in jail. I’m not for throwing all men in jail because of it.
“Similarly, I’m all for throwing rapists in jail.”
With DNA forensics we have available now, the punishment should be much harsher than just giving them a free room, 3 square meals per day and medical care for a few years. Shucks, even I don’t have all that and I never committed a crime!
DNA doesnt prove lack of consent
@MattC:
-.-’ You completely missed the second half of my post where there are some studies that check to see levels of testosterone and violence (then again, I didn’t emphasize it). I’ve found some conflicting things, some saying low testosterone males are more violent, others saying that high testosterone women are more violent, and again, ultimately, that testosterone is not a simple factor.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence
And removing male testosterone would be harmful to society as a whole. We need both genders, in roughly equal amounts. And for people to get married. And get educated. And have 2.2 children. Truth.
@stephenie Rowling:
I’ve had women do some horrible things to me, and never have I ever hurt or thought about killing someone. I’m not downgrading it, and I know it’s terrible. But I still don’t think someone deserves to be physically attacked or killed for it. You can walk away from being psychologically toyed with (in most situations). You’re lucky if you walk away from being physically attacked.
22% of murders are provoked. Yet you don’t hear someone saying,”She/he had it coming.” I know someone who was stabbed to death, and his attacker (his best friend) told him if he stopped resisting, he’d stopped stabbing him. Well, he stopped resisting, and the guy kept stabbing him. Until he died. No one ever said,”Wow, what an idiot, he didn’t even try to fight him.” I’m pointing out the dichotomy we see here.
I’ve seen the falserapesociety. I think the news likes to bank on false rapes because it’s so reprehensible. Just like it banks on women killing their children. These things aren’t the norm, but they’re going to be promoted, like the idiot women who publish articles about how they must have been raped in some way because some guy pulled off their panties and started having sex with them without asking if they wanted to first, and even though these women never said no (and were capable to) it was rape! I get it.
And as for the women who lie– people will lie all the time. But a few liars can’t make us believe that everyone is lying all the time. Women who lie about rape to garner sympathy are reprehensible. I dealt with one in middle school, and avoided her afterward. She was the typical case of an attention seeker; if she felt like I was ignoring her, she had a new life trauma. Her brother had cancer, her father was a drug addict, she tried to kill herself 19 times, she was raped, jk she wasn’t! I had another “friend” recently lie about having cancer to me (after knowing my father was a cancer survivor), then lied about wanting to kill herself to a friend with a family history of suicides, then lie about being raped to a friend who was raped, etc. etc. I’d like to think these girls aren’t that common, and are really obvious, but who knows? Maybe I’ve met a skilled manipulator and haven’t found it out yet.
“But a few liars can’t make us believe that everyone is lying all the time”
Strawman fallacy. Nobody is arguing that every rape victim is lying. This whole thing is not about if rape victims had it coming / deserve it. They dont. Not one.
The argument is about statistics.
I was quoting statistics. Statistics aren’t losing touch with reality. Do you want me to put in the exact numbers? I’m talking about the most likely scenario. (I’ve seriously quoted these stats so many times…)
I wish they had a statistic showing the percent of men committing these acts. Then we’ll see the reality of the situation. Most men are good, but the way some of this stuff just blatantly leaves out the fact that the vast majority of men don’t commit criminal acts is what bothers me.
And as for the women who lie– people will lie all the time. But a few liars can’t make us believe that everyone is lying all the time. Women who lie about rape to garner sympathy are reprehensible. I dealt with one in middle school, and avoided her afterward. She was the typical case of an attention seeker; if she felt like I was ignoring her, she had a new life trauma. Her brother had cancer, her father was a drug addict, she tried to kill herself 19 times, she was raped, jk she wasn’t! I had another “friend” recently lie about having cancer to me (after knowing my father was a cancer survivor), then lied about wanting to kill herself to a friend with a family history of suicides, then lie about being raped to a friend who was raped, etc. etc. I’d like to think these girls aren’t that common, and are really obvious, but who knows? Maybe I’ve met a skilled manipulator and haven’t found it out yet.
This study: http://www.mediaradar.org/mcdowell_kanin_credible.php came to the conclusion that up to 60% of women lie about being raped when they file a rape accusation. 60% isn’t “a few”.
I don’t believe it’s as high as 60%. For the study it’s greater than 14%, less than 60%.
Matt,
I pasted them here. By their statistics 1 in 5 males committed rape already. 3 in 10 said they would do it if they thought they would get away with it. It smells funky.
@Yohami:
Wasn’t it actually 8% who admitted to something that fit within the legal definition of rape? The 20% came from men admitting that they were so aroused that they would keep going regardless of what the woman was thinking. I mean, what if they kept going, and the woman said yes? That wouldn’t be rape, then…so I think that statistic is inflated.
@MattC:
Most men don’t do these things. Because they’re more likely to do it doesn’t mean they’re the majority by any means. For example, most murderers are men. This does not mean most men are murderers. This does not mean most men are evil. These statistics are being used by animal behaviorists to find a reason; is there a correlation between hormones and behavior? Is it something else? Can we stop it? It isn’t about throwing all men in jail, or giving them a hormone pill, or treating them all like criminals. It’s about understanding why these things happen.
In addition, most violent men tend to be single, widowed, or divorced. In light of these statistics, I don’t understand why people are encouraging divorce, or not getting married. Clearly, marriage is good for all parties. Clearly, marriage is good for children. Clearly, staying married is good for everyone, and society. So why is it being discouraged? Why? I don’t know.
And I think you understand right now what it’s like for a woman to read the sphere, and the links men put about cuckolding or initiating divorce, etc. You’re having the male version of NAWALT…or NAMALT. haha.
@Butterfly Flower:
No, your boyfriend thinking of taking your clothes off does not make him a rapist or a potential rapist. Many men fantasize about things that are consensual involving women. If in his fantasies you’re letting him take your clothes off and enjoying it, and not saying no, he’s not raping you! SMH.
here again
1 in 5 “couldnt stop it” even though there wasnt consent = confessed rapist.
= 35% would like to rape.
Funky. I guess we should examine what the “couldnt stop” and “did not consent” and “likehood of raping” mean for the study. Cant tell by looking at their results because theres zero data about what they researched for nor what the keywords mean.
Because divorce is a legal and financial death trap for men
@Matt C:
Re Kanin:
I’m reading some essays in regards to Kanin’s research. Apparently some doctors in psychology are arguing that Kanin’s research was not conducted in a scientific manner and did not follow the normal police standards of false reporting, but rather what he (in his own opinion) considered to be false. He performed his own study which found the false reporting rate to be around 6%. The FBI finds the rate to be about 8%. I think 60% is a bit ridiculous.
Lisak also talks about what I said before. That nonstranger rapes are basically premeditated. The guys go for the most vulnerable women they can, and then do something to “help” them. “Let me drive you home.” “let me walk you home.” From that point on he’s in control of her. This is why/how 60-75% of these things are premeditated.
And also, you might be asking,”Why would anyone admit to that? It must be false.” A lot of these guys don’t view forcing a woman or having sex with an unconscious woman as a crime. In fact, it’s a conquest, and they’re proud. You won’t understand their mentality because they don’t think like the average person. That’s why they’re rapists.
According to the statistics, RAPIST is the average person.
Theres more men rooting for rape than men listening to rock music. More rapists than christians. Stop the validation circle for a moment and think about what it “means”. 35% of the population is critical mass.
35% of the [MALE] population is critical mass.
@yohami:
Was that sarcastic or serious?
I think probably in that case, then, it’s a survey and people fill it out. The wording was probably the same. So the men say these things.
Who knows if they actually do them. The percentage who say they would is higher than the ones who actually do. Let’s go with actions speak louder than words.
I think regarding the 1 in 5 statistic…the website also says that 1 in 15 men have raped women, according to the legal definition of rape. Many of these studies are carried out in the 90′s, so it’s probably before the “consenting while drunk= rape!” fad, but who knows? These statistics are contradicting each other, and yet both are based on what men have said. I think both are using different sample sizes and different sample groups, period. It’s the only way to explain the differences. That said, the 1 in 15 statistic sounds more likely. The 1 in 5 statistic might be some weird male ritual bragging.
@Yohami:
That’s still not the majority. And I’m so confused about what stance you are taking. I feel like you’re arguing with me, then against me. Maybe I’m just tired and misreading everything…
And as for marriage, I’m not just talking about for men, but for women too! Why are modern women discouraging it? Why are feminists discouraging it?
I never implied he might be a rapist; I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of said line of logic.
Men thinking about having sex with women isn’t “contemplating rape”.
And I think you understand right now what it’s like for a woman to read the sphere, and the links men put about cuckolding or initiating divorce, etc. You’re having the male version of NAWALT…or NAMALT. haha.
I’ve noticed a lot of men on the blogosphere seem to completely disregard the notion of “bad men”. Women are just so awful, but God-forbid a someone points out some bad men exist in the world too. “Rapists only attack sluts that deserve it, bad men don’t rape innocent women…” Rape statistics may not be completely accurate, but that doesn’t mean rapists don’t exist…
@Butterfly Flower:
The statistic said explicitly:
1 in 3 men said they would rape a woman if they could get away with it.
It said nothing about sex.
I don’t see how it’s ridiculous. That’s what it says.
And re the sphere:
Yes. They fail to see that humans are inherently flawed. Men and women alike.
Well, I mean, the number is ridiculous. Hard to believe.
But the line of logic isn’t that ridiculous. Either a) you would or b) you wouldn’t. I don’t think there’s a lot of ambiguity
Eh. But you were saying “its a fact” and “its reality”, thats why I end up arguing against you and the logic behind it, rather than arguing with you.
I think the number is ridiculous. If the statistics are real, then I live in a blind bubble (which might be the case, but, unlikely)
So before taking the 1/5 rapist and 3/10 pro rape ratio, as a “fact” and talking about it like it was the most normal thing in the world, I would need to get the facts behind the statistics and some explanation about why society and
the people I know dont reflects the dynamics that would result in injecting a 35% rapists ratio in my surroundings / the observable world
Maybe we should be about how feasible are this “mental rapes”. Did they asked what circumstances would they consider “get away with it” Would they enter a house of a woman they know is going to be alone (or is living alone) without dogs or neighborhoods and they know she can’t protect herself for some reason?
Or they will intoxicate unpurpose a woman to render her unconscious to facilitate rape?
Also the definition of rape has changed quite some times, so where this kids aware that it was rape according to the new definitions? Because the study says they didn’t considered it rape, so maybe this was after they got the “rape awareness training” and they didn’t cover this.
Any details like this about how the study and questions were formulated?
So before taking the 1/5 rapist and 3/10 pro rape ratio, as a “fact” and talking about it like it was the most normal thing in the world, I would need to get the facts behind the statistics and some explanation about why society and
the people I know dont reflects the dynamics that would result in injecting a 35% rapists ratio in my surroundings / the observable world
.
Yes. Certainly not my world, and the guys I know, have known, associated with, been friends with. 1/3 rapists if they could get away with it? No way. This implies essentially that 1/3 of men are evil sociopaths. Not sure what the number is but 33% strains credulity.
.
I skimmed this thread very rapidly, and I’m not going to go back and dissect every word, but one thing jumped out at me is this idea of a woman “not being sure if she was raped”. Unless she was comatose, unconscious, or sedated, then if she was conscious during the act and is “unsure” if she was raped, then she WASN’T RAPED unless we play this nonsensical game of redefining rape to situations where the woman regrets having sex after the fact or feels she was “pressured” rather then physically forced.
Brightstormyday, thankyou for bringing in a rationality here free from ego-centered emotion.
Stephanie, without clicking on your link to the study or studies about women and porn fantasies I bet I can tell you what it says;
1. The study or studies were conducted in a few western countries, those being most likely UK, USA, Canada, Australia or Western Europe.
2. The sample size was small, at most maybe 3,000 women.
3. The so-called “rape fantasy” was actually a seduction fantasy of being made wild, passionate love to by a highly attractive man whom the women desired.
Am I write or wrong?
I don’t get when women claim they were tricked into having sex. I mean, how is that even possible?
I’m quite naive, but I’m pretty sure at some point I’d realize a man is trying to have sex with me. For example, if a man were to remove his pants in front of me. I feel like a lack of pants would indicate sexual intentions.
I don’t get when women claim they were tricked into having sex. I mean, how is that even possible?
.
I don’t think “tricked” is the right word. You aren’t going to trick your penis into her vagina. I really hope Yohami will chime in here because he has the amount of experience to really elaborate, but I’ll say this. I think some women…in the moment…just go with the flow. In other words, they do NOT forcefully, vocally, and EMPHATICALLY say NO, STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW. They “let” sex happen, and then after the fact they regret it, feel like they acted “slutty”, etc. Now put some extreme “all sex is rape” women in front of them asking “did he get your consent”, “did you verbally say yes you may insert your penis now”, and voila now she has been raped. She never said NO, STOP THIS, but afterwards she was persuaded she never gave her consent. So it isn’t a case of being “tricked”, but just allowing something to happen in a more passive sense. If you read the book The Game by Neil Strauss there is a perfect example of this sort of dynamic in the early part of the book when they walk this girl home WITH A BOYFRIEND and the one guy has sex with her. She puts up no resistance and just allows it to happen. The thing is there is a very wide spectrum on the female response in between “fuck the shit out of me now/stick it in” and “NO, STOP NOW” of which that middle zone is just sort of a passive participant at least to begin with and then the level of “active participation” picks up. Yohami is better then me in verbalizing these sorts of dynamics but I’ve had enough experience to know how women can vary tremendously in their response.
then she WASN’T RAPED unless we play this nonsensical game of redefining rape to situations where the woman regrets having sex after the fact or feels she was “pressured” rather then physically forced.
I think this is another thing were Feelingarchy its been imposed. We know already that women hate shame, specially word shames so for them a guy that says words for her to have sex with him can be constructed into what her feels where of the whole act afterwards. If she liked the sex, was unnatached and the guy keeps trying to have sex with her, she will “feel” that everything that happened among them was meant to be. Of course for as long as he doesn’t do anything that pisses her off, in which case her feelings will change and everything that happened was coerced out of her in some way because an “empowered woman like her doesn’t make bad choices, men force then to do things she doesn’t want to”, then add all the type of sex a woman can have from crappy to mediocre with a guy she later evaluate different, add the modern beatification of whatever a woman feels is validated by society as true and good and voila! Pretty much everything can be considered rape.
Again if feminism doesn’t crumble among their own “feelings” staring will be considered sexual assault soon enough “he raped me with his eyes”, YMMV.
I’m hearing about these women who cherry-pick which men raped them and which men gave the consensual sex, all based on a concept that women will claim it was rape if the guy was unattractive, couldn’t give her an orgasm and didn’t show interest in her afterward, and claim it was consensual sex if the guy was attractive, she enjoyed the sex and he showed interest in her afterward. Where does this come from? Have women actually been interviewed regarding this?
As far as “pressured sex” with a twist, how about this story:
A tall, lanky awkward male nerd I know with very friends happened to meet a group of young people and hit it off with them. One of the females of the group, I’ll call her Kim, was obese and had a crush on him. One day the group asked him, “are you and Kim dating?” They were NOT dating but he felt that unless he said “yes” that he would lose this group of friends, so he said “yeah”. From that day forward Kim started treating him like a boyfriend and yes, according to him she even “forced” herself on him sexually. He was not attracted to her and eventually could not longer pull off the charade and thus told her he only wanted to be friends. Sure enough, after that the group was not as friendly to him as before.
What would you call this?
A tall, lanky awkward male nerd I know with very friends happened to meet a group of young people and hit it off with them. One of the females of the group, I’ll call her Kim, was obese and had a crush on him. One day the group asked him, “are you and Kim dating?” They were NOT dating but he felt that unless he said “yes” that he would lose this group of friends, so he said “yeah”. From that day forward Kim started treating him like a boyfriend and yes, according to him she even “forced” herself on him sexually. He was not attracted to her and eventually could not longer pull off the charade and thus told her he only wanted to be friends. Sure enough, after that the group was not as friendly to him as before.
What would you call this?
Not sure what I’d “call it”, but it certainly isn’t rape, and he wasn’t “forced”. He sounds like a spineless guy with no self-esteem to get sexually involved with a woman he has no attraction to just to maintain a circle of friends. If a group of people aren’t going to be your friends because you won’t get sexually/romantically involved with a woman, then they are not really your friends.
What would you call this?
Depends
Did the guy asked the girl to stop once they were having sex or he just “thrusted and though of England”? Most of this points are about the other partner being made aware with a clear STOP that the person is not consenting. Imagining that because you weren’t screaming his/her name in extasis, the other person most had known you were raping them is kind of placing the blame in someone that was not made aware of that fact and is not by any means psychic, YMMV.
I’m almost positive (sex-positive?) I’m an awful jackass for thinking this, but…
I think that poor girl in the picture is doing a little projection. She likes guys who get laid – pre-selection and all that. She assumes guys are the same way, and is broadcasting her little attempt at pre-selection out into the world.
Shit. That picture makes me sad for some reason. Somebody needs to give that poor girl a talking to.
Withe,
I´d call it a stupid guy
“Have women actually been interviewed regarding this?”
Yes, thats some of the stuff the proven – false accusations results are throwing
“people should make the sexual choices that are right for them, and other people should respect them for making those choices.”
.
Sex pozzies will NEVER respect a man who makes the sexual choice to reject a woman for marriage based on her past sexual choices. So much for your self serving pontifications.
.
we should solve that nasty problem of how it is significantly more difficult for men to get laid than women.
.
Sex pozzies will NEVER acknowledge, let along solve, this nasty problem. They are a self serving bunch and will only do whats good for themselves, hypocrisy be damned. They came about as a fringe group after being mocked for years of throwing back alpha male BC-pill cocktails.
.
Mike C, you did fine with that “let it flow” description. I rarely get the girls “verbal consent”, I dont look for it, it gets in the way, makes the stuff mental, forces her to make a logic decision. Emphasis in “logic”. Logic is not an arousing thing. That doesnt mean there is “force”, but “magic”
“asking” for consent is like asking for permission. a turn off. If you are “the man” you dont ask for permission but act as you have permission. If you break that spell by asking “are you sure about this” or “is it ok if I advance sexually?” its pretty much over. If things are going to far too soon she can make you stop and tell you straight that she doesnt want to go there.
But she can also be moaning no no no no no nooo whe shouldnt be doing this, all night long.
Like with everything related to women, there are many, multi layers of communication going at the same time. The purely “verbal” is the most superficial. Not the plane you should be mainly communicating on.
claim it was consensual sex if the guy was attractive, she enjoyed the sex and he showed interest in her afterward.
.
She got the BFE^ she was brainwashed by feminists into thinking that she is entitled to, despite the alcohol and brevity of the circumstances. Anything short of that is absolutely rape, and that is defined by law.
.
^ boyfriend experience
Do women have to get verbal consent from men as well? Do we have to ask men, “are you sure about this?”
Mike C, you did fine with that “let it flow” description. I rarely get the girls “verbal consent”, I dont look for it, it gets in the way, makes the stuff mental, forces her to make a logic decision. Emphasis in “logic”. Logic is not an arousing thing. That doesnt mean there is “force”, but “magic”
So you’re not “tricking” women into letting you have sex with them? Like, they were in the mood, and looking to fool around with you? You initiated intercourse, but the moment was already sexual?
…so it’s never like, a man literally tricking a woman into sex? Oh. [What? I said I was naive]
White,
have to? no, but a lot of them do, once and again
Butterfly,
Thats how it goes! but its not “letting you have sex with them”. That phrase is so funny.
…why is it so funny?
If [err, more like when - I'm a virgin] I have sex with a man, I’d be allowing him to have sex with me. I decide who I part my legs for. I’m the gatekeeper to my uh…”secret garden”.
My boyfriend and I have hot make-out sessions; I’m sure sex can easily “just happen” but I’m smart and draw a line. We actually have a “don’t take off your pants” rule.
It sounds like women that lack self-control are blaming men…instead of just parting their legs. Not having sex isn’t that difficult.
Rebuttal?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=opS_DMV30jQ
Cheers, ‘VJ’
Yohami:
That hasn’t been my experience. Dude, I respect you and usually agree with you, but you have to be able to tell a NO from a “no, no, no, no, *moaning*” and if you aren’t sure you risk being a rapist by continuing. I am NEVER scared of “not being the man” by asking when I wasn’t sure, admittedly it could be I just find weird girls or something or maybe it’s because it is possible to ask in a confident manner.
Susan:
You might want to “fisk” this because the post is basically calling SMP “superstition” , among nicer things.
http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/what-if-its-all-just-made-up/#comment-6395
Nope sorry about that. It’s supposed to be Funny!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opS_DMV30jQ&feature=player_embedded
Enjoy, ‘VJ’
I’ll go out on a limb and say that “even though the woman did not consent” = token resistance.
Of course this being a feminism approved/made study they didn’t make a distinction and just encased it all under “rape”.
Asserted, but no accompanying studies for proof, I see.
1) Without a clarification on the study’s methodology, we don’t know whether the “1 in 3″ stat applies to violate rape or just rape in a legal definition (which may not include violence, such as if the girl is inebriated/passed out). And yes, the same would have to be corrected for if the reverse was to be applied to women. If asked “would you rape” (which would give most people the mental image of a violent, back-alley taking), most women would probably say no (most men too). If asked “is there any guy you would tie down and ride till morning, like Isla Fisher did to Vince Vaughn in Wedding Crashers?” …well you’d probably get a higher number of women answering affirmative than the previous question, even though the latter is still legally rape.
Absurd feminist ideals, basically.
The problem with you and most women is that feminism has convinced you to take common sense advice and inquiry for blaming.
So to you there’s nothing funny to you that such a ridiculous number came out of a supposedly logic line of thinking? i’m going with Steph here, you’re seeing the faces of your friends instead of how absurd the results of these studies are when overlapped on RL.
Evidence supports this. The fact the woman didn’t get punished at all is even more jarring. I some cases of false rape the woman even got a huge settlement and the man nothing even when evidence proved his innocence.
We have a winner!.
Just want to say I’m sorry about all the comments going into moderation. Because I’m on vacation and have no real internet access, and because my husband is happy about that, I’ve not been online much, and I haven’t been fishing them out the way I normally do. It makes no sense – Wordpress is wacked. FWIW, I’m whitelisting everyone I can so this happens less, or maybe even not at all.
@White Cloud
Jess nearly always suggests doing the opposite of my advice. You’re going to have to choose sides
The original point of SlutWalk was only about dress, not SMV value. It was also an attempt to argue that prudence is unnecessary, or should be, in female behavior, a point I’ve argued against here several times. The fact that so many of the participants are physically unattractive is interesting, and at least somewhat surprising. It suggests to me that skimpy dress and aggressive behavior are the only way some of these women get any attention, which is what I see happening with slutty women in college as well.
The problem with ME? *grits teeth*
…this is why I hate the blogosphere, pretty much all the male commenters automatically assume the worst about me. I’m such a slutty feminist manhating virgin. Apparently I can’t wait to marry my boyfriend so I can cheat on him & subsequently divorce him.
I’m not allowed to believe evil men rape innocent women who aren’t asking for it, but men can believe all women are vindictive evil whores? *facepalm*
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