Channeling Sex and the City is Not a Winning Dating Strategy

August 31, 2011

Reader VJ posted a comment today, a field report of a group of women he observed while out with his wife. VJ is an old married like me, but a keen observer of human nature and the changing nature of the SMP. VJ has a way with words that is unique and very humorous.

Here’s his peek into the real-life over the top narcissism of a small group of 20-something women:

 

“I saw this while out at a trendy Atlanta restaurant with the wife this past Sat. It was a small clique of gals in their 20′s dressed to the 9′s at Prime Time on Sat night, sitting at the next table. On a Date. With each other! Amazing to witness. And they could not stop taking photo’s of themselves smiling and camping/vamping for their camera phones and then posting about their fantastic night out onto their FB pages. Like every 5 minutes or so. Replete with their ‘reaction shots’ of their faces to various things said via their FB pages. All damn night. The wife’s comment was ‘if they’re actually after some guys, that’s a strange way of going about it’. Sure.

But this is what ‘dating’ has become. Dates with your pals, where you tell the world how much FUN! you’re having, & how much fun you ARE! Constantly via Twitter or FB etc. It’s all about Just wonderful you. The narcissistic development & ideology here was enough to start several ‘reality’ shows. All of them looked decent enough, even if squeezed uncomfortably into party dresses that clearly no longer fit well their more expansive frames. No matter, they were quite convinced of their own Fabulous-ness.

How clueless the entire set was became obvious as they tried desperately to vector in another friend who was literally a Block away up the street, but nevertheless took a whole half an hour to painfully direct to the premises with more than half a dozen hilariously silly phone calls. Google maps proved useless, evidently it does not cover parking lots. Saying ‘it’s just up the damn street you git’ also never occurred to any of them. Nothing seemed to work. Not landmarks, not the direct address. And you literally could have thrown a stone from here to where the clueless sister was. But she eventually showed up. Even larger than the original set, and much less stylishly so, as it’s difficult to do that size in any dress, really.

The entire talk of the table was about parties they’ve attended, were going to attend or trying to get into. And how they could scam their way into more ‘hipper’ ones. With a side order of the denigration of marriage in general, and of the marriage of an acquaintance in particular. It was amazing to witness it all, and be brought back over the years to the angst of what yes, bubble headed bleached blonds consider ‘conversation’ or even a ‘fun night out’. Frightening actually. Not much has changed. So my take away from all of this? Should it matter to anyone or even the gals mentioned here, (who were oblivious and likely would care not)?

1.) If you seek or desire a LTR with someone of the opposite sex? Go to places where you might encounter them, and actually have a conversation with one. That might be a good start.

2.) Don’t get too lost in self to where you can no longer realistically relate to others ‘outside’ your own small clique or world. This is the 21st century. You’re not likely to meet, marry or mate exclusively with someone inside your own small ‘circle of friends’/cliques. Believe it or not.

3.) The above may not seem to matter much to many 20 somethings, until it does. At 30 something? It’s much harder to find a ‘decent prospect’ than at 20 something. Ditto for 40 something. You too can be oh so fabulous and accomplished and still be considered pretty& beautiful. But it’s still going to be work, and much more work at later ages. But for now, ‘no eternal reward will forgive you now for wasting the dawn’, or the pretty on drunken escapades. Even the perfectly chaste ‘fun’ ones with just your gal pals every Sat. night. Ditto for the guys. It’s just not very attractive for anyone out of college long.

4.) The explosion of the narcissistic self involvement of our younger generations may well spell disaster for any future considerations of family. Families require sacrifice for the young & very old. That’s impossible to contemplate for many due to their overweening concerns for self above all.

So ask not ‘why don’t I have a BF.’ It’s that you really don’t evince any concern or attitude towards wanting or desiring one. No, not really. Your ‘adult’ desires remain forever undeveloped, whether or not you actually desire children. You can no more claim to actually have a care or concern for others if you’re constantly so self involved as to pay more attention to your phone than to your fellow guests & friends you’re dining with. For whom you dressed for too!

Cheers, VJ”

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    I notice that VJ didn’t report a single man approaching the gaggle of women. That is very telling in itself.

    I have noticed that it is getting rarer to find young men and young women in complementary distribution. I see a lot of young women in shopping malls, fru-fru bars, and salons/spas. I see a lot of young men at car shows, comic book shops, and sporting events. It is as if they inhabit different cities, like in China Mieville’s latest book, The City And The City”, where different classes inhabited the same physical space but had agreed not to acknowledge each other.

    Anyway, the female bonding should serve them in good stead for their manless futures:

    [img]http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26013&stc=1&d=1256816181[/img]

  • http://www.bronanthebarbarian.com Bronan the Barbarian!

    Jesus christ, that picture was not what I wanted to see first thing in the morning. Can you have a nightmare while you’re still awake?

  • imnobody

    Young American women have behaved this way for years when they had a night with their female friends. So what is new?

    This post remembers me the news where Ricky Martin told the world that he was gay. What was new? It was like Obama saying he is black.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Young American women have behaved this way for years when they had a night with their female friends. So what is new?

      This post remembers me the news where Ricky Martin told the world that he was gay. What was new? It was like Obama saying he is black.

      I think the level of narcissism is getting worse, and social media plays a key role. I’m not sure which came first, but VJ describes an evening designed to produce envy on Twitter and Facebook, a pretense of fun. In reality, what’s fun is pretending to have fun, apparently. All photos are posed, with women making duck lips and holding their cameras high above their heads to take their own photos. Often one will make the tired gesture of a peace sign behind someone’s head. All treated as a roaring good time. It’s common to look at a group of women in a restaurant and see a moment of silence as all text independently on their own phones.

  • imnobody

    Holy crap! These are not clothes! These are their tits painted!!! Please MuleChewingBriars have mercy of the readers of this thread! Instead of embedding the picture, a link with a disclaimer (“not safe for sensitive people”) would have been great.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Holy crap! These are not clothes! These are their tits painted!!!

      As repulsed as I was, I got in close and stared at that photo for about two minutes. I don’t understand how American culture is successfully exported anywhere.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Jesus christ, that picture was not what I wanted to see first thing in the morning. Can you have a nightmare while you’re still awake?

    Yep, that’s the kind of thing I’ve only ever encountered on solvents.

    It is as if they inhabit different cities, like in China Mieville’s latest book, The City And The City”, where different classes inhabited the same physical space but had agreed not to acknowledge each other.

    That’s very true. It does seem that in our time men & women are understanding – & sadly, liking each other – less & less. I think perhaps with the limitless distractions of the information age, consumerism & now the internet, westerners can surround themselves with an echo chamber of their own little pampered hobbies & interests, without having to venture into the real world of all that conflicting experience out there.

    Instead of being brought together by technology (& the feminist age, for that matter), we find we are drifting further & further apart. Internet pornography has now become an enormous part of practically every young males inner world, sexual life & development, yet is almost completely beneath the radar of most women, who are off getting lost in romance novels, Twilight, Sex & The City & Ally McBeal. Which are, conversely, off the map of most men. It’s getting harder & harder for those two camps to even speak to each other & make sense.

    We look at the same world yet we see different things.

  • Abbot

    where different classes inhabited the same physical space but had agreed not to acknowledge each other
    .
    There is an unspoken agreement [and enforced with the word "creep"] in the West between women and men, where only thugs/players have free reign.
    .
    it is getting rarer to find young men and young women in complementary distribution
    .
    AKA “the harem” where women foolishly deny they are sharing a small subset of men for sexual services. The denial acutely escalates when their desperate focus becomes marriage and only tumbleweeds roll on by.
    .

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    The interesting thing is that while it often appears that nearly all women are now waiting past their 20s to marry, this is still very much the minority. What these women aren’t aware of is that their quicker to the draw sisters are quietly hunting and bagging all of the best potential husbands in their age category. The Sex and the City gals (real and imagined) don’t feel like they are being left behind because of the self selected group they are part of; plus they still get all of the attention they could want when they go out to the clubs. But the coolest guy at the bar seldom makes for a good husband, in the rare case that he is interested in marriage (or the even rarer case that he is looking to marry a reformed party girl). While this will no doubt work out just fine for many of these women, waiting to be the last in your cohort to pick a husband isn’t always a good thing; for some reason the women who chose sooner tend to lack the common courtesy of leaving the best ones for others.

    We are of course seeing far more women delaying marriage in their 20s than ever before. Even so, the majority of 25-29 year old women in the US have already married (per 2010 Census). I’ve shared this in chart form here for white women. Only 43% of white women 25-29 have never married. For 25-29 year old women of all races combined the number is lower, but still less than half haven’t married (48%).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dalrock

      What these women aren’t aware of is that their quicker to the draw sisters are quietly hunting and bagging all of the best potential husbands in their age category.

      And those quicker to the draw women aren’t necessarily more attractive. There’s the weak bidders/strong bidders theory:

      In any auction, there will be “strong bidders” and “weak bidders.” Strong bidders are very confident of their ability to win the auction. However, weak bidders understand they can be outbid and often bid more aggressively, while the strong bidders hold out for a great deal. Empirical studies of auctions show that weak bidders often win. In dating, a strong bidder is a woman who feels very confident of her ability to attract men, while a weak bidder knows that she is less attractive and faces stiff competition.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/01/25/hookinguprealities/the-new-sex-math-probabilities-and-opportunities/

      The point is that a woman who is focused and willing to take some responsibility by signaling interest early, with a minimal checklist of requirements, is going to fare better than these women who repeat the same unproductive “dates” with themselves every single weekend and wonder where all the good men have gone.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Is this a case of Louis CK’s Girls vs Women distinction?

    Single Girls just want to have a laugh with their friends, take duckface pictures to post on Facebook, get drunk, dance and flirt. Sex is not a priority for them. Marriage and kids are not even on their agenda.

    Single Women are a different story. I’ve met lots of single Women since I joined a Meet Up Group based in [University Town].

    I won’t pour scorn on the women who didn’t socialise much in their 20s and 30s, because they do have something to show for it. Money and a career. Two things I lack at the moment!

    Of course, there were also the older divorcees with kids at the Meet Up BBQ I attended, but I didn’t find the Eat, Pray, Love crowd there at all.

    I’m going on a Pub Crawl with the Women from Meet Up this Saturday. It should be an eye-opener!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Johnny
      Wow Louis CK is blowing up. That’s a pretty funny video. You know what’s wrong with the females VJ saw? They’re not even in transition to women. They’re still doing the Girls Gone Wild thing. As 30 approaches, that’s just painful to behold.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Duckface!

  • Isabel

    @ MuleChewingBriars

    That picture is the most compelling argument I’ve ever seen for atheism. Ewwwwwwww!

    :|

    OT: There does seem to be some sort of gender war between the two sexes. A few weeks ago a (quite nosy) male acquaintance asked my friends and I whether we trusted the majority of guys our age and vice versa to his male friends to while away the time and just for his own amusement.

    All the girls unanimously said that they distrust men with some going as far as saying all men are filth until proven otherwise. I, on the other hand, kept quiet and casually sipped my hot chocolate waiting for the impending shitstorm. When pressed for answers they blamed a) absent fathers or b) emotionally or sexually abusive stepfathers or c) being cheated on by seemingly sensitive and kind boyfriends.

    The guys then said that this was partly the girls’ fault for choosing to date men of bad character which I thought was a fair comment. The girls responded in kind by saying that all the past cheating girlfriends who took emotional advantage of them were also then acquitted of full responsibility for being heartless bitches. The girls (quite rightly) said that the boys must also then accept being called bitch-enablers for dating those girls but for some reason the guys would not accept this. Non sequitur! It doesn’t work that way, they said. Pretty dishonest imo. The male ego is kinda annoying at times.

    Anyway, then it sorta half-heartedly steered onto the fact that many British girls are entitled princesses who, despite being stunningly average, still expect Prince Charming to swoop in and save them from the average male student. Another more than fair comment. One guy then mentioned that the average British woman is 5’4 and wears a size 16. For illustrative purposes, you can Google ‘size 16 woman’ and you will, in fact, see a big lady wearing a bikini with St George’s flag on it. That, my friend, is one of the British finalists for Miss England. Miss Surrey to be precise. Interestingly enough, the guys were full of praises for European girls, particularly the Scandinavians, so I doubt it has much if anything to do with feminism by the way.

    Female response: “Our reputation as chubby drunkards in the Mediterranean and the Balkans is your fault! Rah rah rah, you’re no Hugh Grant yourselves!” x10. Also kinda true.

    After that, the discourse went heavily downhill in both quality and honesty, and it wasn’t long before people were accusing each other of being pigs and dykes so everyone went back to moaning about results day.

    The current SMP is more or less an epic but retarded version of the Israeli-Palestine conflict imo. Each side thinks it’s the victim and the only innocent party present whilst rationalising any aggression by their own rank as retribution or self-defence.

    But on the upside, that hot chocolate was really really ridiculously good. :O

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “This is the 21st century. You’re not likely to meet, marry or mate exclusively with someone inside your own small ‘circle of friends’/cliques.”

    Actually, I think modern times make clique behavior much more feasible than it was in traditional societies. G K Chesterton made this argument:

    “The man who lives in a small community lives in a much larger world. He knows much more of the fierce varieties and uncompromising divergences of men. The reason is obvious. In a large community we can choose our companions. In a small community our companions are chosen for us. Thus in all extensive and highly civilized societies groups come into existence founded upon what is called sympathy, and shut out the real world more sharply than the gates of a monastery. There is nothing really narrow about the clan; the thing that is really narrow is the clique….The men of the clique live together because they have the same kind of soul, and their narrowness is a narrowness of spiritual coherence and contentment like that which exists in hell”

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    VJ describes an evening designed to produce envy on Twitter and Facebook, a pretense of fun. In reality, what’s fun is pretending to have fun, apparently. All photos are posed, with women making duck lips and holding their cameras high above their heads to take their own photos. Often one will make the tired gesture of a peace sign behind someone’s head. All treated as a roaring good time. It’s common to look at a group of women in a restaurant and see a moment of silence as all text independently on their own phones.

    This is good analysis, hadn’t thought on it in that much depth before: “what’s fun is pretending to have fun, apparently.”

  • Isabel

    Btw, guys evidently do find the hideous duckface attractive because those are the girls who have a soft-harem of men chasing them around in my experience and not just any kind of man too, but the goodlooking and intelligent ones. Wear a bandage dress, drown yourself in mascara and bronzer and you’ll have a boyfriend of ‘meh’ calibre before the month closes. The hell? Why the disparity, gentlemen? Is it because they look easy? They’re not actually easy tbh. They’re frigid teases and quite proud of it so what is their appeal?

    Mind = boggled.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Isabel
      As I think of the women I know, the duckface makers, as well as the ones who stick their tongue out in photos and look up and to the left? All promiscuous. Not a dealbreaker for dating, even good looking, smart guys (many of whom are douches, by the way).

  • AnonymousDog

    Susan,

    Re: Strong bidders, weak bidders, probabilities, etc.,

    Once a person, male or female, gets out of school, the older he/she gets, the smaller the pool of potential dates/mates there is to choose from, unless one wants to date those considerably younger than themselves. Those who get into the game early, and play it seriously have a distinct advantage over those who take their time.

    And nobody, nobody, seems to want to tell you that when you are young. Instead, they say, “oh don’t worry. you’re young, you have lots of time.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And nobody, nobody, seems to want to tell you that when you are young. Instead, they say, “oh don’t worry. you’re young, you have lots of time.”

      The absolute worst advice I’ve ever heard anyone give is, “Don’t worry, it will happen when it is meant to.” What an excuse for being lazy and passive! My mother always said, “God helps those who help themselves.”

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/ The Private Man

    VJ made some funny observations and told a great story. Sure, those 20-something cupcakes are all footloose and fancy-free now but something on the horizon is going to gobsmack them something terrible.

    Baby rabies.

    When the desperate need to spawn surges, a woman’s life changes enormously. Just as a man has a biological urge to stick his magic joy stick into a cosmic bonus hole, a woman develops a biological urge to fill her womb with new life. All sorts of behaviors change and it’s hilarious to see and experience. Well, for me anyway, I’ve had a vasectomy and I don’t tell anyone about it ;)

    [Back off you childfree types, this ain't about you]

    Such 20-something dames having a girls night out is like watching 1st graders in the sandbox. It’s social play, nothing more. But sadly, the narcissistic behavior continues even when the baby rabies take hold.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Isabel,

    it’s in spite of the duckface, not because of – a physically attractive girl will get a lot of male attention, even if sitting in a pool of her own puke. Youth, health & fertility can convince men to overlook a great deal of unimaginable hideousness.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I think somewhere back in the primeval mists of time it began with someone imitating a supermodel in the belief that if they not only pulled the same facial expression but exaggerated it monstrously, it would make them beautiful too.

    It didn’t work.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Can we not get onto the slut thing here already?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Can we not get onto the slut thing here already?

      Just think of it as giving up sluts for Lent. Let’s see if we can have interesting conversations without them.

  • Jonny

    The girls (quite rightly) said that the boys must also then accept being called bitch-enablers for dating those girls but for some reason the guys would not accept this.

    Hmmm.. (quite wrongly). I’ve been on that side myself. I was blamed for the breakup because I couldn’t please her. I enabled that bitch by getting involved with her, committed, and then she broke up with me. She said I wasn’t quite right with her. I didn’t do enough for her. Very narcistic.

    On the other side, I can see how newly empowered women will want to exercise their new found power by dating above their pay grade. They were taken once, which was a step up. She will take a bigger step and get a bigger prize.

    Okay, but sometimes she will hit a wall. Many women will sooner or later realized there are no second chances after they gained 30 pounds and aged 10 years. But men do seem to have the power when they get older. They seem to hold the cards.

    Funny thing is I do enjoy watching “Sex In The City” at times. It is completely mindless, stupid, and ridiculous. No one should take it seriously, yet women do. The 1950-60s family dramas were more real that these new shows. I suppose if you do like being by yourself, a night of “Sex In The City” makes a good substitute. Otherwise, watch “Leave It To Beaver” and cry about the family that you will never have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Funny thing is I do enjoy watching “Sex In The City” at times. It is completely mindless, stupid, and ridiculous. No one should take it seriously, yet women do.

      Yes, it’s escapist, not a blueprint for a fulfilling life. As many have pointed out, the characters on that show were miserable 95% of the time. If it didn’t work for them, why would it work IRL?

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Susan wrote:

    You know what’s wrong with the females VJ saw? They’re not even in transition to women. They’re still doing the Girls Gone Wild thing. As 30 approaches, that’s just painful to behold.

    Well, all the women who have RSVPed for the Meet Up pub crawl on Saturday are over 35. I am prepared for three eventualities.

    1. They are looking for casual sex.

    Fingers crossed.

    2. They are looking for “the one”.

    I feel sorry for them if that’s the case. I’m not saying its impossible. Its just a tall order. They would have to be incredibly persistent, inventive, brazen and outgoing in their search. They would also need to be utterly ruthless about screening out unsuitable men. Even then, there would still be no guarantee of success.

    3. They’ll spend the whole night drinking Jagerbombs and taking duck face pictures of each other.

    I’ll be a gentleman and hold their hair back while they puke.

  • Jennifer

    What a bunch of idiot airheads! The women of SATC actually are much less clueless about attracting guys.

    Oh Lord, and the repulsive morons in the first comment’s picture?? EW!

  • Matt T

    Eh, it’s not THAT hard for a women over 35 to get some action. She just has to have decent looks and a lot of money, and buy expensive gifts for the guy. Basically act like a sugar mama.

    It’s kinda perverse I guess.

  • Isabel

    @ Jonny

    Hm no, I don’t think I explained myself very well. What I’m saying is both genders need to make better judgements of character instead of falling for the first attractive thing that pays them attention and then wondering why things happened the way they did. Weren’t there any red flags at any point in the relationship? Surely, she would have betrayed her nature at some point, even if it was something as little as hogging all the bathroom space?

    I’m not saying her bad attitude was your fault because it isn’t but a lot of girls will knowingly date a guy with a reckless history and then wonder why he treats them bad just like every other girl in his past. Incidentally, those are the types who’ll buy the SATC boxset for and go on girls’ night out where they employ their “look, but don’t touch! tralalalala I’m so sexy” method on unwitting strangers. And then they come home to an empty bed and clog everyone’s Facebook feed with their complaints about men. *facepalm*

    Worst SATC episode I saw was titled “A woman’s right to shoes”. Ick.

    PS: Saying “it’s not me, it’s you” is also pretty damn brazen tbh…. oh well. Good riddance to bad rubbish. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Isabel

      “look, but don’t touch! tralalalala I’m so sexy”

      I love your way with words, truly.

  • CrisisEraDynamo

    Regarding the “screw locally marry globally” bit above: don’t go for the slim pickings available in China. They had to ban the divorce-theft bonanza because of excessive gold-digging by these women.

    We in America ought to follow their example.

  • OhioStater

    From Slate “the eligible bachelor paradox”:
    http://www.slate.com/id/2188684/

    The Sex and the City clones are “strong-bidder” women. There is an element of submission to sex and I can imagine it’s hard to “tap” a woman used to a certain amount of power and influence. Taming of the Shrew has no sequel.

    The one true thing I’ve learned from the man-o-sphere…female attraction is stronger when the man is more eligible than the woman. That’s not to say attraction doesn’t exist if this condition is not met, just that all-else-equal (economics concept) it is LESS likely the woman will leave the man if he’s more eligible. To be clear, that is not a generalization.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2031684/Alessandra-Ambrosio-towers-fiance-Jamie-Mazur-LA.html

    Furthermore, adding extra heft to my contention women like to date up…men can and will tolerate a clingy woman if that means she won’t cheat on him, but women have 100% revulsion to clingy men, no matter what benefits clingy men bring.

    Back to the Sex and the City clones…these women can’t find men more eligible than themselves. They priced themselves out of the market, like Volkswagen trying to sell a $80,000 luxury sedan (it happened).

    These women are acting like camp gay men, which was one facet of the show, Carrie’s bald gay male friend. They say all the good men are married or gay. Some bloggers suggest women think that men are attracted to what they are attracted to (confidence, status, etc). Well if you don’t know any good straight men (they’re all married) the only good men you know are camp gay men. Why not act like them?

  • Jamie

    That picture got me really excited because I thought we were going to have a discussion about what a sad sack of shit Carrie Bradshaw is….and why does the cool dykey one hang out with a bunch of delusional bimbos in the first place?

    But I guess not.

  • Jamie

    Holy crap! These are not clothes! These are their tits painted!!!

    As repulsed as I was, I got in close and stared at that photo for about two minutes. I don’t understand how American culture is successfully exported anywhere.

    Really? I thought that was sorta funny. Not something I’d do myself, but those women are middle aged and possibly lesbian. It’s not like protesting double standards of topfreedom to appease the alien overlords, it’s just plain silliness, hopefully in some kind of context where it would be appreciated. I mean, guys use their balls for comedic effect all the time (re: The Goat). Why not boobs?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I mean, guys use their balls for comedic effect all the time (re: The Goat). Why not boobs?

      Have you ever seen a nude guy with his balls painted to look like something else? To each his own, but those women with their nipples painted black just gross me out!

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Matt T:

    Eh, it’s not THAT hard for a women over 35 to get some action. She just has to have decent looks and a lot of money, and buy expensive gifts for the guy. Basically act like a sugar mama. It’s kinda perverse I guess.

    Finding “action” is easy for anyone with a vagina.

    But long-term commitment, marriage and kids are more elusive for single women over 35.

  • whiteboykrispy

    “As I think of the women I know, the duckface makers, as well as the ones who stick their tongue out in photos and look up and to the left? All promiscuous”

    Hahaha laughing to myself after you said that SW. If a chick adds me on fb and I see pics of her making the duckface, I know it’s on.

    Reading VJ’s comment, I was actually surprised at how unsurprised I was. I guess at my age and the girls I’m around, this kind of behavior is pretty normal. A bunch of girls decide to go do something “FUNNNN!!!!” like go to a restaurant and manage to irritate everyone around them with their antics, as they photograph and tweet and facebook.

    With social media, every girl gets to channel the inner celebrity that she knows she is.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    MuleChewingBriars,

    You wont find a princess by kissing these frogs

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    Worst SATC episode I saw was titled “A woman’s right to shoes”. Ick.

    You know it’s bad when the woman who is married and trying to raise her children as best she can is portrayed as more self-centered than the single woman whose life is about ensembles, shoes and sex.

    I once read a critique of SatC that said the show was basically “gay men playing with Barbies.”

  • ExNewYorker

    @

    That is Miranda right? I agree she seemed the most grounded,

    .
    I guess it’s all relative. There was an episode where she got an STD and she had to call all her “past” guys to let them know. The list she had made it clear that she really wasn’t “grounded”…
    .
    That show was funny, and had good laughs, but it was basically a gay man’s fantasy lived through four horrible women. But, just like you got to tell little Johnny, after watching “Superman”, that you can’t jump out windows, probably somebody needed a similar disclaimer for women watching that show :-)

  • jamie

    @Stephanie

    That is the one were Carrie makes a woman pay for her very expensive shoes that she will never wear twice, because she had the audacity of getting married before her and getting gasp! presents for it? Because trust me I know no woman who sympathize with that one.

    It wasn’t because the girl had a wedding/baby shower. It was because she insisted everyone take off their shoes before coming in the house and when Carrie went to put them back on to leave, the were missing. I mean, if it were her coat or her purse left in a coat closet that later turned up missing, she’d be within her rights to demand the hostess do something about it. But that woman was like, “no big deal, you can walk home barefoot.” It’s a matter of etiquette, not jealousy.

    What’s really unbelievable is a freelance writer living in a huge apartment in Manhattan, getting a new Macbook every year and still having enough expendable income left for Manolos.

    Eh…whatever. The show is entertaining enough. I like the parts about female friendships, but why anyone would want to make role models of those women is beyond me.

  • Omega_dork

    I haven’t read previous comments, but I’ll bet this was a sorority get together and they weren’t in search of any men that night.

  • jamie

    @Stephanie

    I’m not excusing her dumb behavior at all, I’ve already stated that Carrie is a sad sack of shit. I’m just saying that this was one case where her selfish antics were sort of justified. But even she completely missed the point. Did you ever see the one where she guilt-tripped Charlotte into pawning her engagement ring to bail her out of debt? God I wanted to smack her and spit loogies into her mouth.

    In fact, that’s probably why Big left her sorry ass at the altar, he looked up her credit score. I about died laughing when the girls hunted him down in a limo and Carrie beat him with flowers.

    LOL….fanwank.

  • imnobody

    Why don’t women take the easier path? Self sabotage?

    The best way for a woman to self sabotage herself in a relationship is to have sex with a guy for the first time and then, regret it and start behaving like a Puritan woman. Playing hard-to-get, refusing sex on the grounds that “who do you think I am? I am not a slut”, shaming the guy for wanting sex, go back to square 1 when they are in square 4.

    The back-up move. The only move that guarantees to end with a relationships and end up with a really pissed-off ex. Works every time.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Still can’t get the song mr milfquest posted out of my head, which it has pleasantly destroyed over repeated viewings. Reposting it here for those that might be turning up late:

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron
  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Hmmm.. well, i tried. embedding videos only seems to work in preview:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT9YI3hAkCY

  • Liza207

    SATC created and written by gay men. Although, it was on a book by Candace Bushnell. The character Samantha is fifty and still enjoys riding the dick carousel and has no interest in commitment. Really? It’s clear that the show with written from a male persepective.

    In addition, I believe it opened the door wide for a lot of the promiscous behavior we see now.

  • Liza207

    SATC was created and written by gay men. Although, it was based on a book by Candace Bushnell. The character Samantha is fifty and still enjoys riding the dick carousel and has no interest in commitment. Really? It’s clear that the show with written from a male persepective.

    In addition, I believe it opened the door wide for a lot of the promiscous behavior we see now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In addition, I believe it opened the door wide for a lot of the promiscous behavior we see now.

      I agree. I don’t think its effect on the brains of adolescent women can be overestimated.

  • Abbot

    In addition, I believe it opened the door wide for a lot of the promiscous behavior we see now
    .
    Is there a backlash? If so, where is it coming from?

  • GudEnuf

    I’d like to meet the marketer who hatched the lie that bars/clubs are good place to meet a partner. It’s really only a place to get NSA sex, and if you’re a guy there are better option for that.

    Man, fuck the alcohol culture. Fuck its fakeness and its hedonism and its irresponsibility.

  • Abbot

    Man, fuck the alcohol culture. Fuck its fakeness and its hedonism and its irresponsibility.
    .
    Well then fuck the majority of the urban West, a mal-parented shallow validation-addicted petri dish culture foreign to most men who live in its midst.

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    Whoa whoa whoa…so you’re telling me that some of those pictures of people doing “fun things” on facebook and twitter are only FAKING fun? That is a seriously good self esteem booster.

  • Sox

    Well then fuck the majority of the urban West, a mal-parented shallow validation-addicted petri dish culture foreign to most men who live in its midst.

    Abbott…what’s your goal here? I’ll agree with others that your comments can be very insightful, but you’re a broken record on some of these topics. Give it a rest man! You beeline straight back to female upbringing, slut bashing, and gloom and doom descriptions of the West in every.single.post.

    The SMP sucks at times in the West but the sky is NOT falling, in this poster’s opinion.. Susan, my apologies for not contributing anything to this thread…I just think it’s getting a little ridiculous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The SMP sucks at times in the West but the sky is NOT falling, in this poster’s opinion.. Susan, my apologies for not contributing anything to this thread…I just think it’s getting a little ridiculous.

      Dudes! I go away for a few hours and you’re back to bashing sluts. I thought we were all agreed. We’re giving it a rest on the slut front. Feel free to criticize female narcissism – that’s the relevant point here. Not promiscuity. Sox is right – it is beyond ridiculous and tedious at this point. I guess I’ll have to start trashing comments.

  • tito

    ha! these dumbasses are so amazingly stupid that it is funny and shocking at the same time. this is how it ends people.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    sox, steph,

    yep – i agree with Abbot’s essential point but really i’m SO fucking bored of it by now my eyes just slide off the S word & i just want to go off & look at anything else. It’s making HUS a tedious & unpleasant place to be.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s making HUS a tedious & unpleasant place to be.

      Oh boy, that does it. Now I feel like mama lion needing to protect her cub. I know I’ve been slow to pounce on this but I am not going to let anyone drive away readers with their personal agenda. If I have to start banning IP addresses I will.

      Now I feel like mean Mrs. Ryan from George Washington Elementary.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I’m with whiteboykrispy, this behavior is really so common that I’ve become numb to it. Most attractive college girls are wannabe celebrities these days.

    I do have to disagree with the idea that people need to make special effort to date outside their social circles, though… For me, social circle game has always yielded higher quality prospects and much higher success rates than cold approaches.

  • Abbot

    this behavior is really so common that I’ve become numb to it.
    .

    you don’t argue when a women tells you she’s only making 80 cents to your dollar. It’s the path of least resistance. You save your energy for more important battles.
    . Scott Adams, creator of the Dilbert comic strip

    .
    Ignoring seems to be the new trend. Path of least resistance is not the worst strategy.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    Imagine a show about a bunch of guys who play video games all day, have no jobs, are overweight and have effeminate personalities. That would be the male equivalent of Sex And The City and it should have the same effect on women that SATC has on men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Imagine a show about a bunch of guys who play video games all day, have no jobs, are overweight and have effeminate personalities.

      Ha, that was the movie Knocked Up! I liked it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Kane,

    Imagine a show about a bunch of guys who play video games all day, have no jobs, are overweight and have effeminate personalities. That would be the male equivalent of Sex And The City and it should have the same effect on women that SATC has on men.

    The MRA show!

    And they should be doing jokes about how women are worthless, all day long.

  • Abbot

    The male equivalent of Sex And The City could also be four alpha males who have a soft harem – access to just about all the attractive women. Two of them learned game in varying degrees. One alpha has a sensitive spot so he feels guilty about womanizing the easy pickins and the other dude is an all out bastard and sometimes gigolo.

  • Abbot

    Scott Adams wrote

    society is organized in such a way that the natural instincts of men are shameful and criminal while the natural instincts of women are mostly legal and acceptable.
    .
    http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/pegs_and_holes/
    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Abbot
      It’s too bad Scott Adams backtracked on that column. The feminists got him to take it down.

  • http://Ft.com VJ

    Yeah somewhat veering off course here. My reaction was that this was essentially just an outgrowth of some of the narcissistic behaviors I was seeing when I was dating that just confused & frustrated me greatly. I mean how to relate to gals obviously ‘out for a good time’ but perfectly uninterested in anything beyond themselves? Yeah, I know pretty common, then & now & forever. It may even be part of the ‘Buds’ picture Mule gave us. (Visible proof that Louis CK can be wrong too!)

    But always it comes down to the level of intellect & culture of the crowd your with. Couture they had, their dresses must have been a C-note (or near it) a piece (it’s a lot of fabric people)! And notably they were all wearing Party Dresses, but somehow Missing the Party (except with themselves). And as I said, all perfectly chaste, and not more than just tipsy either, actually. So there’s no inference I was drawing, other than them being mightily annoying with their antics & one running back and forth to the front looking for their lost ‘sister’. I thought I was caught up in the middle of a 3rd grade class actually, that’s how silly it appeared.

    These were the type of women I avoided like the plague when younger, which is a good thing as they never looked at me as anything other than a ‘nerd’ or worse much of the time. Most never understood where the hell I was coming from either. Fast forward 25+ years and the wife sometimes does not understand where I’m coming from either. (I call that my infamous Fairey Swordfish rant). Regardless, she can Get There because she’s smart, thoughtful, clear thinking, well read, patient and fairly rational too.

    Worse, Plenty of this critique now applies to almost ALL ages. Stop a conversation of your ‘elders’ sometime and it’s bound to be perfectly inane; if they’re not talking about aches & pains & various docs & diagnoses Or their kids/grandkids/relations it’s all about the damn TV shows! Did you see that on here? She did what to whom? Gossip writ large. Or Fox was talking about this horrible imaginary deal & we should be Outraged About it all! (Or worse whatever they’re spouting back from talk radio propaganda that day). No one talks about ideas or ideals anymore. Or really understands much beyond the sloganeering & bumper-stickers. Or inventions, engineering, economics etc. Perhaps it was ever thus for most.

    Me? I’m thinking about this stuff all the time. The fact that the ONLY way the entire cast of SATC would be able to live the way they did & NOT work (much) and have as much Leisure time as they did was that a.) they were Retired b.) they were very wealthy divorcees and/or c.) they were ‘kept women’ or Escorts for very wealthy men! It just was never credible to me so I could never watch.

    So bottom line? Look for someone divorced from the technology of the age. Someone not wedded to FB, without their own Blog cheering section etc. Perhaps someone w/o a working TV too might help greatly. You know like some hot semi-cloisetered nun from way back. I know, that sounds almost hopeless in this day & age. Which was my point. It was already getting damn near impossible when I was young, and it’s degenerated into silly perversions and fantasies ever since.

    There’s no need to add much alcohol or sex to this mix. It’s already pretty dysfunctional from an operational human perspective. And yes, I know that all too well. I try to hire some of these folks too. Better than 90% of college grads fail our 2 qualifying requirements we state to send with your resume. Rationality and the ability to actually ‘sell’ or defend an argument in written expression? Seemingly wholly unknown to this generation for whatever reason. Where’s my perfect/acceptable BF? Gone with that decent job I guess. Me? I’m trying.

    I still see the humor in all this. I get to relive my grammar school days regularly. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Steph,

    never heard of that show but interesting from that link seeing that it too was marketed to women, making the male characters all wealthy CEOs (so attractive to the hypergamous instinct) but also inadequate little boys (that the women really rule) so they can be looked down on. These men are hen-pecked, rather than ‘empowered’. One of the characters is trying to win back his first wife (a common female ego boost fantasy – have you noticed how often that pops up in chick-flicks?)

    It wasn’t made for men, & wasn’t truly about men (“The problem with Big Shots is that the men don’t sound like anyone at all, male or female.”),it was actually made to laugh at men, while also (paradoxically) fetishizing them as fantasy objects of wealth & status.

    All this aimed at attracting a female market, & yet didn’t even finish its first season. Sex And The City ran for 6 seasons & two movies & is still raking in dollar bills from gullible guppies.

    Women matter. Men don’t, except in the things they can provide for women. That is the message of both shows.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    You asked and the Internet responded!

    That’s, er, quite a long snake he’s got there.

    I don’t even want to know how you found that. I have to say, he looks a lot better than the women with bulging frog eye boobs.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The whole FB and twitter phenomenon is really just an inflation of what happened with the advent of the polaroid camera.

    For proof, just open your photo album to any past holiday, and you’ll see smiling faces, people posed with their arms around shoulders, kids kissing parents in gratitude for gifts given, parents looking on in vicarious excitement as kids tear through wrapping paper, kids playing nicely together, etc… What you don’t see are the arguments and petty bitching, the kids rolling on the floor bored moaning about how there’s nothing to do 10 minutes after opening hundreds of dollars of presents, dad threatening to leave early if the kids don’t behave, Aunt Polly getting too drunk, and Uncle Manny grabbing your mom’s ass as she bends to get a baked casserole out of the oven.

    Pictures have always lied. We’ve always used them to lie. It’s just that now we all walk around with cameras in our phones and keep in touch with friends and families virtually. Now our lies aren’t hidden away in photo albums to take out and enjoy every now and then when family gets together; now they’re plastered on the internet, and the actual truth is actually less important than the virtual one we create. Of course, the upshot is that the real us hiding behind a wall of lies, which makes for a whole lot of loneliness.

    The virtual world gives us virtual truths. The medium is the message.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Pictures have always lied. We’ve always used them to lie.

      I don’t think so. Pictures used to commemorate a gathering. The gathering, the community, family, was the point, and the day would be punctuated by some posed pics or perhaps a few candids. Today, the pictures are the point, and gatherings are held as an excuse to snap more self-portraits. That’s another thing that’s changed – only in recent years has the extended arm shot of one’s own face become common. In fact, I don’t think those pictures lie – I think they put the self-love unabashedly on display.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    1. That’s not really self love.

    2. We commemorate the parts we want to remember and forget the rest. And from as far back as we’ve had people say “cheese” we’ve been being dishonest about what we’re commemorating.

    Of course, this takes things to a whole new level. And the fact that we all have our own portable cams means that the “self” has become the natural thing to commemorate.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    And yes, today the pictures ARE the point, which is what I meant when I said that the virtual truth is actually more important than the actual truth. Or is thought to be at any rate.

    But FB has literally become people’s faces as they communicate mainly through online means. A good FB page is thought of as the equivalent of getting all dolled up to go out, because that’s what people use to interact.

  • Mike C

    Excerpt from one of the linked articles:

    “Where have all the most appealing men gone? Married young, most of them—and sometimes to women whose most salient characteristic was not their beauty, or passion, or intellect, but their ****decisiveness****.
    .
    One comment/question I see repeated here quite often by a number of young women is why is that guy or those guys with that woman or those women whether they are bitchy, or slutty, or make duckfaces, or are disagreeable or whatever the particular issue might be. In 95%+ of the cases, those women were simply decisive about making the guy their boyfriend of husband.

    Guys do the vast amount of approaching, and even for the best looking guy with the tightest game, rejection is still a fact. It would be an interesting stat to see but my guess is 99.5%+ of all hookups, boyfriend-girlfriend relationships, and marriages are the result of an INITIAL ACTION taken by the guy, either starting a conversation, making a move, whatever. A guy can only be as choosy/selective as his options permit, and the majority of us have a pretty good sense of what are realistic options are. So when a girl chooses you, more often than not, the default response is going to be to run with it, and see where it goes. That is why those guys are with those girls, and the overly picky girls are watching from the sidelines wondering why that guy is with THAT girl.

  • lalady

    Why all the hate on Sex and the City?

    I think it’s a great show. It portrays the life of the “liberated” single woman in the city relatively accurately (ok, except for Carrie’s shoe budget). And as Susan mentioned before, all four characters are miserable about 95% of the time. I like to watch them now to learn what NOT to do. The ending of the story (including the movies) is of course totally unrealistic- does anyone really think Big would end up choosing, er- MARRYING a 40-year old Carrie over all the pretty young things a man of his status could pull? No. But the earlier episodes are less fairy tale and more cautionary tale to any woman out there thinking of following in their footsteps.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lalady
      If most female viewers of SATC viewed it through the same lens you do, there’d be no problem. It would be viewed as a show about dysfunctional women, satirical. Unfortunately, it had a tremendous impact on sexual behavior among young women, glorifying casual sex and normalizing entitled behavior. Women wanted to be Carrie Bradshaw, despite the fact that she was always a hot mess.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The problem with TV is that people–young people especially–don’t heed the warnings, they emulate what they see portrayed. Especially when you include comedy and drama into the mix. Who doesn’t want to have stories to tell or dramas to live through?

  • Mike C

    Imagine a show about a bunch of guys who play video games all day, have no jobs, are overweight and have effeminate personalities. That would be the male equivalent of Sex And The City and it should have the same effect on women that SATC has on men.

    Not a show…a movie, and subtract out effeminate personalities, but it reminds me of the Big Lebowski. “The Dude” is kind of the ultimate slacker dream if you are a guy but the complete antithesis of what a woman finds attractive. Kind of a perfect parallel to Carrie Bradshaw.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also, given the nature of sitcoms, the characters are all relatively static. This isn’t a problem really, except that the show fails to show the real impact that the characters’ choices have on their lives. You have to keep it light. So the impression given is that that sort of life really IS light… i.e. fun.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    Interesting article here from that same site someone linked above:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/12/in-search-of-mr-right/6587/?single_page=true

    “What she found was that at the time in their lives when they feel ready for a partner, young women are at a loss as to how to find one. Contemporary young women, she points out, have been raised to seek fulfilling careers rather than husbands. And upon college graduation they want to spend time out on their own, making their mark on the world, rather than pairing off right away and exchanging their independence for family life.

    You talk about how in recent decades girls have been raised to be more competitive, strong, and assertive than they were in the past. Did the women you talked to feel that those qualities were somehow a detriment to them when it came to romance?

    Not particularly. Several women mentioned that at times in their life they felt that their intelligence or intellectual achievement seemed to work against them in their romantic relationships with men, *****but most women felt that there were some men “out there” who would be attracted to smart women. The problem was finding them.*****

    Alot of interesting stuff in there much of which suggests a number of women are kind of in a state of bewilderment about landing a husband similar to how many guys were bewildered about how to get laid prior to the discovery and acceptance of Game. As the comment above indicates, most women still don’t get male attraction …”attracted to smart women”. The wise mature man values intelligence, but it has nothing to do with the how hard the dick gets. Many women still seem intent on “selling” a product most guys really don’t want, and then scratching their heads why it isn’t working.

    Going back to VJ’s story, one hint for women interested in meeting guys is to avoid these large groups or at least at some point separate off into a pair. Only the most confident guys (probably successful player and cads) will approach groups. It is simply too high risk for getting blown out in an embarrassing way. When I think back, pretty much all my approaches were either girl by herself or with one other friend.

  • Dogsquat

    Byron espoused:

    that’s the kind of thing I’ve only ever encountered on solvents.

    You and me both, brother.

    Several months ago, I was enjoying few delicate sniffs of my favorite postprandial aromatic hydrocarbon. Ever striving to be an enlightened connisuor, I typed “Huffing Up Smart” into Google, perchanse to peruse some reviews of various pairings.

    Somehow I ended up at this dump, and I’m out of my favorite vintage of toluene. You just can’t find the ’74 Sunoco barrels anymore, and it’s a goddamned shame.

  • jamie

    You asked and the Internet responded!

    That’s, er, quite a long snake he’s got there.

    I don’t even want to know how you found that. I have to say, he looks a lot better than the women with bulging frog eye boobs

    That one made me laugh too. Sorry. I still think the frog-eye tits are funny.

    And, actually, a case against universal female narcissism, since those women are willing to sacrifice their dignity for a good joke. This is like the episode of South Park where they banned queefing and Stan’s mom cried because she couldn’t gross out her husband anymore. Ok ok, I know it’s South Park, but that episode spoke VOLUMES about gender relations.

  • Chant

    I find today’s narcissism and the need for over sharing sickening. I respect and value myself and my privacy too much to have an facebook/twitter/LJ/blog/myspace/*enter any other ego validation community here* account.

    As I say to people who ask why I don’t have one – I am too cool for this bullshit.

  • jamie

    I find today’s narcissism and the need for over sharing sickening. I respect and value myself and my privacy too much to have an facebook/twitter/LJ/blog/myspace/*enter any other ego validation community here* account.

    I’ve noticed that the type of people who over-share on social media are the same people who over-share in real life. Some people feel the need to divulge every detail about their lives and don’t believe that they are embarrassing themselves. I think the internet and social media has breathed new life into the art of correspondence, but of course, it’s all about how you use it.

    Those girls that VJ describes sound really boring and lame. The only reason they showed up on his radar was because they were loud and obnoxious. I bet there were plenty of other women in that restaurant who weren’t making nuisances of themselves that he didn’t even notice.

  • Chant

    Stephanie,

    This is a very limiting view. Most of this accounts are done to share information with like minded people, family and/or for work. Not for ego validation. Ego validation is done by people that need to post all their “fun” activities constantly to prove something most of news the books I read are recommendation from people at my facebook and goodreads. A lot of the insightful links I get come from Twitter (also the first news about the Haiti earthquake and links to donate to the red cross for it came from my twihard friends in that media… and I lived in DR at the time!) and my former livejournal community spent thousand of hours discussing storytelling and character creation. Unless all your friends and love ones are raging narcissistic chances are there is a world of things they post about that might be interesting and useful, YMMV.

    I think you might have put some ideas into your writing that I did not claim. I fully admit that I should have expressed myself more clearly and with less negative emotion.

    My professional opinion is that not all ego-validating is bad. More like the opposite, for normal person to function and have a healthy self image they need to get positive feedback from their surroundings.
    Ego validation and self presentation is done unconsciously by everybody. My previous post post probably gave the impression that I disapproved of it, to certain extension I do – validating your ego by pleasing others and giving into peer pressure often results in loosing the touch with reality and with yourself. It is not healthy and wise and I personally do not have any sort of respect or patience for people described above and I choose to have nothing to do with them.

    I too have lived in other countries, far away from my loved ones. I know how much easier technology makes life and sharing under those kind of circumstances.

    However whats with all the justifications and why so sensitive? Everybody has the right to use internet as they wish, I personally use it very often for entertainment, my education come greatly from elsewhere. I do not claim that those communities(FB/LJ/twitter etc) do not have any positive features or that they should cease to exist. Very good for you if you have found such groups who use those places to intellectually stimulate themselves and help to educate others. Very good and very rare. But almost all of this could be done in real life.

    Sharing information and bonding is so much more effective when done in real life. Cyber life is a very poor substitute for that. Believe me, unfortunately I know too well what I am talking about.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Several months ago, I was enjoying few delicate sniffs of my favorite postprandial aromatic hydrocarbon. Ever striving to be an enlightened connisuor, I typed “Huffing Up Smart” into Google, perchanse to peruse some reviews of various pairings.

    Somehow I ended up at this dump

    That’s exactly how I got here too!

  • Jess

    Susan re vj’s field report,
    .
    I have no doubt about the veracity of his recollection. Seen some similar things in my time although it did seem to me he was witnessing a girls night out, unless they were going clubbing later.
    .
    As for Facebook, it took me 2 months to realise it was BS and I closed my account down.
    .
    Vj, was perhaps being hyper critical. I have no doubt the women were unbearable. But arent we all if your table is on the sauce but your neighbouring table arent?
    .
    Ever been to restaurant with you other half for a quiet romantic meal to find your evening shattered by a table of boozy blokes. City traders are the worst.
    .
    “tarquin, you simply must see my yacht old bean”
    “um, Toby, a brunette appears to be about to stab you with a fork”
    .
    This is only if you Are in a posh restaurant.
    .
    If you go to a curry house you get the ” pass the nan bread you WAAAAANKER”
    .
    and in a kebab shop you get a lovely blend of vomiting, urinating, head butting, copulation or stabbing. ( I’m serious)
    .
    So blokes are not always the best behaved diners either you know.
    .
    Also, Susan, I was under the impression you didn’t like field reports?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, Susan, I was under the impression you didn’t like field reports?

      I love field reports! VJ described something he’d witnessed first-hand. He didn’t show up saying that all his friends at work tell him that women are shallow narcissists.

  • Jess

    Isobel,
    Awesome posts. Witty and insightful please keep em coming.
    Ps I bet I hate SATC more than anyone here.
    .
    Jamie,
    You are right, those photos are in fact hilarious. Gross, but hilarious.

  • http://Ft.com VJ

    Just to clear up some questions & issues here again:

    It was meant as a vignette of ‘what not to do’. There were several couples and even mixed couples double dating nearby in this restaurant, getting along fine. These gals were just the closest and of course the loudest in the place.

    The place itself is fairly ‘upscale’. Our bill was just shy of a C-note, which is not unusual for us. (We took away some dinners for later too). Still it’s a place that folks bring family to as well. The bar was at the other end of the room, and they were not drinking heavily, but eating sparingly as if to hold their table until their friend could arrive. They were there when we arrived, and were there when we left more than an hour later too. Taking plenty of photo’s & FB’ing all the while.

    And folks, it’s quite easy to ‘overshare’ on FB. There’s scarcely anyone left on the planet under the age of 40 say w/o some nudie/risque pics on their FB someplace. They are not secure, and have generated entirely new vistas of ‘amateur’ porn in their wake. They’re not hard to find, and it’s not hard to find them from college grads or even ‘well heeled’ grad students posting all manner of silly nonsense, all for some sense of ‘self gratification’ or aggrandizement. When people check these things for employment purposes? We get many surprises. If your favorite religion is listed as ‘salami’, and you’re posing nude, in many pics? You might not make an attractive candidate for the position you sought, despite how attractive you may imagine you are presently at 30 something or whatever. Just amazing people.

    And no this is not an appeal to repeal the 21st century, but some sense of public decorum might be nice to keep in mind. For the record? The gals were merely bothersome & loud. It was their continual narcissistic self involvement & regard that was what drew my attention. If all the world’s a stage? These folks really don’t have much time for much anything else at the moment. Which was my point. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • Isabel

    @ Jess

    I don’t think it is about which gender is the rudest or most annoying. It’s more about young women believing the world actually cares about what they had for lunch or just how much fun they had with their ‘best bitches’ last Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. You probably won’t find the loud guy from the curry house on Twitter complaining about a lack of good honest women. He’ll just belch, roll over and sleep after a night out. Those girls, on the other hand, ruthlessly invade the internet with their whining about how they can’t find an intelligent, sensitive and romantic guy in club toilets. Entitled types that actively demand sympathy and deny that they make bad choices are simply a lot more slap-worthy than obnoxious white van men.

    The funny thing is that all that contrived BFF nonsense is usually built on a very weak foundation. Real friends don’t need pretty dresses, high end restaurants or 1000s of pictures on their smartphones to have a good time. They travel in packs, in part, because they don’t get along enough to have intimate focused conversations and in part, to ensure optimal cockblocking occurs.
    Whenever one of the group members gets a boyfriend, she gets delegated to a lower status out of low-level jealousy and won’t be invited out as much.

    Oh and, their rationalisation motto seems to be:

    ” I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best”

    Every irritant with an internet connection has this quote on her Facebook page.

    PS: Thanks. ^_^

  • Jess

    Vj,
    Yes, I know the type, not my cup of tea…
    .
    Slap worthy? Well yes…but only cos you are in jest…
    .
    More than white van man? .
    .
    I think they have equal slap worthy status myself…
    .
    Maybe because in the past a couple of White van men, other than poor driving, felt the need to expose themselves to me in transit.
    .
    “Get a load of this darlin” etc
    .
    Do these guys not understand they are in a vehicle with a trackable number plate. And why would I wish to peruse the goods of an overweight balding builder anyways?
    .
    But I concede your point about the self indulgent princess thing. No child of mine is gonna turn out like that let me tell you. Uk schools, of all standards, are full of them. Portia is different from Tasha but they can both be princesses in their own revolting ways.

  • Jess

    Susan re carrie,
    .
    Why would any young lady want to look like a cross between a horse and a foot?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I don’t think it is about which gender is the rudest or most annoying. It’s more about young women believing the world actually cares about what they had for lunch or just how much fun they had with their ‘best bitches’ last Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. You probably won’t find the loud guy from the curry house on Twitter complaining about a lack of good honest women. He’ll just belch, roll over and sleep after a night out. Those girls, on the other hand, ruthlessly invade the internet with their whining about how they can’t find an intelligent, sensitive and romantic guy in club toilets. Entitled types that actively demand sympathy and deny that they make bad choices are simply a lot more slap-worthy than obnoxious white van men.

    *applause*

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    It’s true: Sarah Jessica Parker does look like a foot.

  • Jess

    Susan,
    If vj was to do that it would be a classic 1st hand field report.
    Face to face conversations are just as informative as observed interactions, surely?
    .
    By the way did you get a chance to see the 3 medical websites I posted listing the same pros and cons on c sections I talked about (before the site restore)

  • Jess

    Byron,
    Maybe that’s why she was so into shoes…….

  • Isabel

    @ Jess

    White van men are born depraved and annoying, sadly. The girls however might have been salvaged if it weren’t for inane rubbish like SATC, Big Brother, Jersey Shore, Gossip Girl etc telling them it’s acceptable to be hyper-exposed and bitchy for material gain. But then again the MSM doesn’t exactly set a good tone when it handsomely rewards people like Kim Kardashian for worshipping the public eye. A reality show, a fashion label, an autobiography, a “music’ career, a perfume line….and all that because she surgically inserted a sofa in her rear and had sex on camera. O_o

    As for Horatios and Petes, if it weren’t for one party wearing Jack Wills and the other Primarni, you really wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between them on a night out. UK schools are pretty bad too tbh. Whenever we had student exchanges from China or the Netherlands, the foreign kids were actually afraid of us! It was fun corrupting their unblemished souls.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    I don’t understand this sort of person. My female bonding takes place via long in-depth discussions of whether Thor or Iron Man is, in fact, hotter, concluding that what would be hotter is both of them. :P Also cuddling and mutual support when shit hits the fan, as it does on a regular basis.

    And I agree with the thing said above about clans versus cliques. I have met a tremendous diversity of people because there are only maybe a hundred true nerds at my school, all of whom go to the same activities, and so you don’t get much choice about whom you spend time with. :)

  • Jess

    Byron,
    Maybe that’s why carrie loved shoes so much
    .
    Isabel,
    Primarni- hysterical

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Ozymandias wrote:

    My female bonding takes place via long in-depth discussions of whether Thor or Iron Man is, in fact, hotter, concluding that what would be hotter is both of them.

    Ozy lives in a Kevin Smith movie.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Johnny: That’s not a movie, it’s a documentary!

  • Abbot

    If most female viewers of SATC viewed it through the same lens you do, there’d be no problem. It would be viewed as a show about dysfunctional women, satirical. Unfortunately, it had a tremendous impact on sexual behavior among young women, glorifying casual sex and normalizing entitled behavior.
    .
    Men place a value on a women’s sexuality. If women in their minds are capable of justifiably devaluing it based on a TV show, imagine the male view of how they devalue it when disregarding the message “don’t try this at home” and act out repeated mindless falsely-consented SATC-induced-rape episodes. However, this demonstrated behavioral control of women suggests that others can be kept from the ledge and nurtured into a far more admirable life.
    .

  • http://en.gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    “I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best”

    THIS piece of shit. I’m all for admitting one’s faults, but when they try to spin them as positives? RLYAIOF*.

    My response would be “if being at your worst is something to be proud of, then your best ain’t worth it”

    *Run like your ass is on fire.

  • Isabel

    @ OfftheCuff

    My response would be “if being at your worst is something to be proud of, then your best ain’t worth it

    Or more succinctly: stfu.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best

    Did anyone else realize that’s a quote from Marilyn Monroe?

  • jamie

    If your favorite religion is listed as ‘salami’,

    I really need to check my facebook privacy settings now…

  • jamie

    Did anyone else realize that’s a quote from Marilyn Monroe?

    That’s probably why Tony Curtis said kissing Monroe was like kissing Hitler.

    To be honest, Marilyn Monroe can get away with saying something like that. But there is a certain type of fat girl that loves to compare herself to Monroe, quote her and call herself “curvy”. Ugh.

  • jamie

    I always imagined you being a fellow member of the church of the flying spaghetti monster :(

    Haha. I listed Pastafarian as my religion for a while, but being unfamiliar with their doctorine, I had not been touched by His noodly appendage.

    Currently, my religion is listed as “Bacon.” The past 2 years I have cooked Thanksgiving dinner for my family and I put bacon in EVERYTHING. If you’re going to worship cured meats, Bacon is the obvious choice.

  • whiteboykrispy

    Re: SATC parrallels for men

    Susan mentioned Knocked Up, and I would go ahead and say just about every other Judd Apatow movie is in the same vein. Superbad, especially. The message is you can be as nerdy and awkward as you want, but at the end of the day you’ll get the hot girl.

    Cary Grant we have not these days.

    On a lighter note, if you want to do goofy right, be like Ace Ventura. When I saw that movie again recently, besides laughing my dick off, I couldn’t help but notice the way he demolishes Courtney Cox’s character; it is a feat of great acting and writing.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Poor Kari!

    Johnny Milfquest wrote:

    Well, all the women who have RSVPed for the Meet Up pub crawl on Saturday are over 35.

    RSVP ≅ Reply Soon ?

    (Hmm. Preview -button ended working on that browser. These HTML tag buttons work still.)

  • Abbot

    It’s too bad Scott Adams backtracked on that column. The feminists got him to take it down.
    .
    Because he is well known or because he said feminists should be ignored which is a greater fear than disagreeing with them? How about this guy Makow – didn’t he invent some sort of board game?
    .
    http://www.etherzone.com/2010/mako081710.shtml
    .
    And he references this gem:
    .
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/08/10/outraged-moms-trashy-daughters/
    .
    Outraged moms, trashy daughters
    .

    “I’m so deeply pained to see where women are today and how girls—and I mean girls—are being groomed to believe their purpose in life is to be sexual beings that please men”

    .
    IOW: FAIL
    .

  • Liza207

    I want to add that, I saw Kim Catrall in a TV interview a few months ago. She said to the interviewer that her character Samantha from SATC was “empowered” due to the fact that she was a slut (I’m paraphrasing, of course). I almost puked.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liza207
      After SATC ended, Kim Catrall put out a how-to sex book with her husband. They’ve since divorced and she’s recently whined that post-Samantha dating is hard.

      The “Sex and the City” star, who has criticized Hollywood’s obsession with the young and the beautiful, denying talented older actresses plum roles, told us, “Ask me about being a woman. Do you know what it’s like to be 54 and marginalized? It doesn’t get easier as you get older.”

      http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/cattrall_shows_us_no_respect_HPku9fC9oV57ITw8zwJqbO#ixzz1WjkBuzay

      Her alter ego Samantha Jones has a full dance card, but in real life Kim Cattrall is having some trouble in the dating department.

      “I’m trying; it’s very difficult,” the Sex and the City star, 54, told Ellen DeGeneres on an episode of her show airing Friday.

      Acknowledging that playing such a hyper sexualized character scares away some suitors, Cattrall, who divorced third husband Mark Levinson in 2004, added, “Writing a book about the female orgasm didn’t help my dating career either.”

      http://www.usmagazine.com/moviestvmusic/news/kim-cattrall-dating-is-difficult-after-writing-sex-book-201184

  • Abbot

    She said to the interviewer that her character Samantha from SATC was “empowered” due to the fact that she was a slut
    .
    Its so odd [and removes all logic and credibility] that this so-called empowerment must always involve the participation [use] of men. From Henry Makow:
    .

    Young women today are up a creek. They don’t know how to be women and men don’t know how to be men. But one thing that hasn’t changed is – men don’t marry sluts. These girls are going to be left high and dry once their sex appeal has faded.
    .
    They obsess on looking beautiful but don’t know that true beauty comes from within, from a spiritual purity. This means rejecting all coarse influences and behavior. It means focusing on what is good, true, human and inspiring.
    .
    In the past, men had to prove their love and commitment before they could have sex. As a result, women were cherished and given a lifelong role (mother, wife) that satisfied their deepest emotional needs.
    .
    Now they have been reduced to amateur prostitutes and corporate widgets.
    .
    “I don’t meet many girls who feel good about themselves, even though they are totally gorgeous,” one social worker says.
    .
    How could they … giving their bodies to strangers who dump them?

  • Liza207

    Susan, I remembered the book and thought is she really serious. I guess she thought that it would a good idea to continue to capitalize off the character but it backfired on her in personal life. She probably lost her husband thinking that she could have it like her character if she were single.

    Now, she’s still playing the character in those awful movies and is now also playing an aging stripper. Awful.

  • http://www.mindofallan.com/ Allan@Core Confidence

    SPOT ON VJ!

    I enjoyed this.

    Most young women I meet in town are like what VJ described. Living in a reality in where they show other people how cool it is to be her. Telling the whole world about it rather than actually enjoying the night and live in the moment. Oh no God forbid that.

    But I also recognize that it’s just a group of women. I also know that put the young women in a different environment they may not act the way as VJ described. It’s just another persona of multiple personas we as humans have. Hell I know I act differently depending on where I am and who I’m with. Yet I strive to be myself as much as possible.

    So I can understand they way they act. I don’t find it rather attractive on a first impression. But I truely believe there’s more to those girls when they stop competing over who’s more cooler than the other.

  • Smooth T

    ” I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best”

    Geez… A Fb “friend” had that as here status recently, attributed to Marylin Monroe . After I finished rolling my eyes, I was so tempted to respond that she couldn’t hold a candle to Maryln on her worst day.

  • tito

    http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachments/a/26013d1256816181-why-middle-aged-women-should-not-drink-noname.jpg?stc=1

    this photo was priceless! it says so much. this is where it is heading for these were the hot, cool chicks twenty years ago, nodding their heads to Down Boys over by the jukebox. look at them now, haha, you’ve come a long way baby, lol!!!!

  • tito

    @Susan
    “As repulsed as I was, I got in close and stared at that photo for about two minutes. I don’t understand how American culture is successfully exported anywhere.”

    it does boggle the mind doesn’t it? it not only boggles it, it destroys it. our culture destroys others faster than it does us. these idiots are the very personification of inferiority. good thing there “freed.” ha!

  • tito

    “I haven’t read previous comments, but I’ll bet this was a sorority get together and they weren’t in search of any men that night.”

    either way guy, it’s a photo of some old bags showing their (no longer)fun-bags. they are way past however hot they were and no amount of reveling in foolishness is going to change that. imagine if one of those was your mother! haha!

  • tito

    @Liza207

    “SATC was created and written by gay men.”

    of course you know Liza, these sacrosanct folks have special ways of knowing many thigns and we need to learn about ourselves from them. they know how we should dress and talk and even if we need to live in a hip city!

  • tito

    @GoodNuf
    “I’d like to meet the marketer who hatched the lie that bars/clubs are good place to meet a partner. It’s really only a place to get NSA sex, and if you’re a guy there are better option for that.
    Man, fuck the alcohol culture. Fuck its fakeness and its hedonism and its irresponsibility.”

    i bet you anything that the marketer in question was probably some total goofy dork!

    i wavd bye bye to the alcohol culture years ago. it was a great decision. it cut down significantly the sex. i am getting half what i used to get but the bar culture (our only culture) is no way to live.

    @Abbot
    “Well then fuck the majority of the urban West, a mal-parented shallow validation-addicted petri dish culture foreign to most men who live in its midst.”

    well yes then, fuck it. it is going down soon anyway.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    [ Off topic ]

    Byron wrote:

    Hmmm.. well, i tried. embedding videos only seems to work in preview:

    Yes, it is disturbing when Preview gives different result than what you get. (Hmm. Now again Preview button seems work. On previous post it didn’t. Strange. )

    I was hit with that also.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Women wanted to be Carrie Bradshaw, despite the fact that she was always a hot mess.”

    You act as if this is a contradiction of some sort. Drama – emotional energy and social notoriety – appears to be the unit of measurement of many a young woman’s life.

    That’s a big reason young women are so desperate to have relationships; not because they want to share their life with a man (most young women appear to have exceedingly deluded ideas about what relationships entail), but because it confers astouding social status.

    Listen to high school or college girls talk about a homely girl with a loyal boyfriend – “I can’t believe SHE has a boyfriend!!!”

    Susan,
    “Ha, that was the movie Knocked Up! I liked it.”

    The interesting thing that’s often overlooked about Knocked Up is that it’s about a slacker guy who grows into his responsibility as a father. Meanwhile, the “established career woman” goes absolutely bonkers out of her mind and can’t handle the situation, and the committed married couple is a total beta-plus-harpy mess.

    “” I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best””

    So sick of this bullshit. Indolence has been raised into a virtue. A middle-aged divorcee I used to chat with at work never mentioned this quote, but told me in no uncertain terms “you have to give your best to your spouse. None of this I’m too tired for sex or to do my hair. Your spouse, not your boss or friends, deserves your best.”

    That is now my response whenever this nonsense is brought up. Why would you want to subject the most special man in your life to your worst outbursts? Go to the fucking batting cages and work it out and then come home calm. Women have really twisted ideas about what men want. We’re supposed to feel flattered that we’re the person you’re comfortable having an outburst around? Nice try, Rain Man.

    “I’m with whiteboykrispy, this behavior is really so common that I’ve become numb to it. Most attractive college girls are wannabe celebrities these days.”

    I have to say, it was the beginning of the end with my last girlfriend when we were talking about life goals and I asked what she wanted in life…

    “I want to be fabulous.”

    Some part of my respect for her died at that moment. I just couldn’t imagine committing my life to someone dedicated to such shallow aims.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      I have to say, it was the beginning of the end with my last girlfriend when we were talking about life goals and I asked what she wanted in life…

      “I want to be fabulous.”

      Uh oh, that is such a red flag! Especially since fabulousness is probably going to be judged by someone you don’t respect, i.e. girlfriends?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Mike C,

    Always love your comments.

    “Not particularly. Several women mentioned that at times in their life they felt that their intelligence or intellectual achievement seemed to work against them in their romantic relationships with men, *****but most women felt that there were some men “out there” who would be attracted to smart women. The problem was finding them.*****”

    I get angry whenever I hear this “men don’t like smart women.” You know who has been endlessly attracted to smart women his entire life? Me. Guess who has had next to zero luck attracting them? Yeah.

    It’s actually more accurate to say that my admiration of a woman’s intelligence never got me any closer to her heart or her vagina. I’ve found most smart girls are just like other girls. They are attracted to men with some combination of physical fitness, fashion taste, social dominance and mastery in an impressive field (and of course a bit of the dark triangle – chicks dig jerks). Any smart girls I landed were because I expressed those factors, not because I liked that they were smart. This is more evidence that women don’t understand their own psyches, these women are deluding themselves thinking that they’ll be attracted to a guy who appreciates this or that trait about them. How many times have we heard women say they want a nice guy who appreciates them while they bang a guy who treats them like dirt?

    I live an intellectually active life, and let me tell you, it’s very hard even in the pool of smart girls to find a woman who wants to live an intellectually active life. I know so many smart women who just use it for their career and are not that different from regular party chicks outside of working hours.

    Many “smart girls” also suffer from a variant of beta disease in that they think their intelligence should compensate their market value for other things they lack. Like guys who refuse game, they are unwilling to do the other things that attract the opposite sex like dressing well and being fun, under the guise of “I shouldn’t have to change myself to get a man! I want him to like me for me!”

    “Going back to VJ’s story, one hint for women interested in meeting guys is to avoid these large groups or at least at some point separate off into a pair. Only the most confident guys (probably successful player and cads) will approach groups. It is simply too high risk for getting blown out in an embarrassing way. When I think back, pretty much all my approaches were either girl by herself or with one other friend.”

    The only way to get around this is for the group to stand up and mill about in a pack so they are mixed in with the crowd, but otherwise, the wagon wheel of girls facing into each other is a non-starter, a guarantee only a hardened player or a sociopath will be approaching you. I see it as a sign of a lack of courage and agency among the women, that they have to protect themselves because they don’t really want to be there, and I have little interest in chatting with someone with that little verve for life. Having all that cattiness just exponentially increases the chance that peer pressure will induce a woman into delivering a pyrotechnic rejection (an event that may cause every other guy to write them off).

    Besides, splitting into smaller groups allows girls to pull each other into conversations, like “come meet my friend!” which just makes for more fun interaction.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    What Badger said.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    I totally have smart girl disease. *shrug* If I don’t have to femme up to get laid or to get relationships, and given that it goes completely against my natural gender instincts to the point that it feels like dressing in drag, why would I?

    I actually do get off on mastery in a field (dear God, mathematicians) and on fashion sense (well, on femme guys, but that overlaps a lot). And physical fitness a little, as long as they don’t end up with six pack abs (EW). Not really on social dominance and totally not on dark triad, though, and you missed a couple of my bulletproof turnons (I kink on conversation, okay!).

    …Yes, I do have an irrepressible urge whenever people say “women like X” to figure out whether I count as women. :P

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “And yet she’s divorced.”

    Tell me how that impugns the wisdom of her testimony.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Men On Pause

    It seems that some people are not comfortable with the idea of same sex bonding.

    I don’t think that’s what people are saying at all. If those women had been bonding over dinner like everyone else in the restaurant, VJ would probably not have even noticed them. Instead, they were loud, taking flash photos, making calls, laughing about the Facebook updates, etc. If I’m dropping $100 on dinner, I’ll complain to the manager about such obnoxious behavior.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Men On Pause sounds like Poly Desi/Plain Jane. The IP is part of a service called “Hide My Ass.” Deleting now.

  • tito

    @Badger
    “I have to say, it was the beginning of the end with my last girlfriend when we were talking about life goals and I asked what she wanted in life…
    “I want to be fabulous.”

    hahahahahahaHAAAA! fabulous? whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!!

    that is the funniest and dumbest shit i ever heard. gee i wonder if she is a college educated independent woman? ya think?

    ha! and again ha!

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    @Badger – re: smart girls – In my bachelor days, I made a valiant effort to scale one particular Miss Mount Mensa. The girl looked like Oona Chaplin, but talked like Richard Feynman. She probably had an IQ of 170 or better.

    I was the guy everybody told her she should date. I heard all about the guys she really dated, though. They were mostly physical, proletarian types from a Mediterranean background. I asked her what the attraction was.

    “They like my boobs, my butt, and my hair.”

    “I think you have great boobs, butt, and hair.”

    “Yeah, but you like my brains more. It’s all you ever talk about.”

    “We can talk about your boobs, your butt and your hair, but honestly, there are thousands of girls with better boobs, butt and hair than yours, but who else understands the diagonal lemmas in Gödel’s incompleteness theorem?”

    “What’s wrong with my butt?”

    “I didn’t say…”

    “You said there was something wrong with my butt.”

    Smart women, alas, are women. The extra horsepower that world class grey matter gives them makes them all the more problematic if the car is headed in the wrong direction.

    She married a swarthy fellow who beat her. A lot.

  • Liza207

    @Susan

    Here is the TV interview with Kim CarttralI I was commenting on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exmgTAFAK_o

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    I had heard that the reason SATC was cancelled was because the CGI required to keep Kim Catrell’s face and her breasts in the shot at the same time was getting too complex.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Badger
    Many “smart girls” also suffer from a variant of beta disease in that they think their intelligence should compensate their market value for other things they lack. Like guys who refuse game, they are unwilling to do the other things that attract the opposite sex like dressing well and being fun, under the guise of “I shouldn’t have to change myself to get a man! I want him to like me for me!”

    Until a couple of months ago, that was me! I was the sort who’d say, “Well, if I had the money to get nicer clothes, effective eye cream, make up that didn’t cake, etc., like those pretty girls do, then I’d be one of them–but I just can’t afford it.”

    Then it hit me that there was no huge income difference and that I’d be able to afford all that stuff if I simply stopped buying books for a month. :P

    Speaking of books, they give us a great metaphor: If you really believe that it’s the content that matters and not the cover, then you should do whatever it takes to make sure the cover lives up to the content.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Then it hit me that there was no huge income difference and that I’d be able to afford all that stuff if I simply stopped buying books for a month. :P

      About eight years ago, I analyzed my annual credit card statement and realized I had spent 3K on books that year. My rationale was that I would never buy hardback books, but was allowed to buy all the paperbacks I wanted. I immediately became a dedicated user of the library. It’s so easy, I read book reviews, get online to my library account, request what I want and then wait for the email to come in telling me my books are ready for pickup.

      It’s increased the amount I read, and for obvious reasons I’m much more likely to take a chance on a book I’m not sure I’ll like.

      Speaking of books, they give us a great metaphor: If you really believe that it’s the content that matters and not the cover, then you should do whatever it takes to make sure the cover lives up to the content.

      Brilliant.

  • suzie z.

    I feel bad for VJ’s wife. He takes her out to dinner and spends his entire night getting sickly fascinated and appalled over the (innocuous, and irrelevant) conversations and body mass indexes of a group of 20-somethings. This sad image kind of undermines my ability to derive anything meaningful from this article.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I feel bad for VJ’s wife. He takes her out to dinner and spends his entire night getting sickly fascinated and appalled over the (innocuous, and irrelevant) conversations and body mass indexes of a group of 20-somethings.

      It sounds to me like the wife was right in there enjoying the show (or not). These wildcats were getting up in their meals with loud and unruly behavior. Who wouldn’t be appalled? As far as fascinated, well, many appalling things are hard to stop watching.

  • imnobody

    I get angry whenever I hear this “men don’t like smart women.” You know who has been endlessly attracted to smart women his entire life? Me.

    Me too. I have always wanted to be with smart women. This is a dream I am afraid it won’t come true.

    It would be so nice to have a woman to have a conversation with. I dream of that. Women bore me to death.

    Start talking about science, history, social issues, politics, philosophy and see women yawn. When they talk about their family, their pets, their female friends and celebrities, it’s me who yawns.

    In the country I live smart women are extremely rare and their looks are between 2 and 3. I am not exaggerating. I cannot post some pictures of the girls in the book club I have created (it would be wrong). But I can give you an idea. Although they are in their early thirties, they are much less attractive than the women with the tits painted who are at the beginning of this thread.

    I have a theory that women get smart because they are ugly. Beautiful women don’t have to be smart and they are not. Women who have an interest in something that is not related to them? Very few.

  • imnobody

    About the last sentence in my post, I think that a good proof is the difference between men’s magazines and women’s magazines.

    Men’s magazines talk about politics, sociology, economics, etc. That is, things that are not related to men’s personal life.

    Women’s magazines talk about clothes and fashion (so the woman know what to wear), relationships and sex (so the woman know what to do with her personal life), recipes (so the woman know what to cook), raising kids (just in case the woman is mother), feminism (about women). Me, me, me. The only exception: celebrities (A typical headline: Brad appears with a mysterious woman while Angie’s in Germany. HE IS CHEATING!!!!). Don’t forget the triple exclamation points.

    You put a program about the economic crisis on TV. 90% of audience are men. Women are not interested. Programs with the highest female audience: Oprah, programs about celebrities, etc.

    Academic subjects created by men: Politics, economics, philosophy, science, engineering, etc (everything unrelated to men).

    Academic subjects created by women: Women’s studies (that is, talking about women).

  • imnobody

    (It is scary. The spelling checker of my Google Chrome browser recognizes “Oprah” so it gives an error when I write “Opprah”. It seems that “Oprah” has become a word of the English language).

  • Abbot

    Academic subjects created by men: Politics, economics, philosophy, science, engineering, etc (everything unrelated to men).
    .
    Thus, society created and ruled by men. Women live in that society too. But no point in making them aware of that.

  • imnobody

    Only until now I have read the whole Badger post. Brilliant. Let me repeat some pearls so they don’t get lost in a long post:

    – Any smart girls I landed were because I expressed those factors [alphaness], not because I liked that they were smart.

    – This is more evidence that women don’t understand their own psyches

    – I live an intellectually active life, and let me tell you, it’s very hard even in the pool of smart girls to find a woman who wants to live an intellectually active life. I know so many smart women who just use it for their career and are not that different from regular party chicks outside of working hours.

    I couln’t agree more with this.

    -I get angry whenever I hear this “men don’t like smart women.”

    I think we can put this sentence in the same category than “men don’t like strong, independent women”. That is, not a truth but a female rationalization to feel better when being rejected by men.

  • jamie

    As far as fascinated, well, many appalling things are hard to stop watching

    So true. There was a bar I used to enjoy going to because the patrons were ghetto trashy people and would get into some of the most amazing fights. Also I enjoyed watching SATC for the same reason.

  • http://xxcollegechronicles.wordpress.com/ ResrieG

    “Academic subjects created by men: Politics, economics, philosophy, science, engineering, etc (everything unrelated to men).”
    .
    To suggest that men are more likely to discuss these topics amongst each other than women are is one thing. But to cite the fact that these subjects were introduced by men as evidence for the fact that women have no interest in them? All of these subjects were ancient, from a time when no one would have listened if a woman tried to publish any kind of research on one of these topics.
    .
    “Men’s magazines talk about politics, sociology, economics, etc. That is, things that are not related to men’s personal life.”
    .
    And come on. These topics are certainly more prevalent in magazines geared towards men, but we’ve all seen the men’s magazines which focus on telling guys how to meet girls and start relationships while maintaining their jacked physique.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And come on. These topics are certainly more prevalent in magazines geared towards men, but we’ve all seen the men’s magazines which focus on telling guys how to meet girls and start relationships while maintaining their jacked physique.

      Seriously. Cosmo = Maxim. And I think it’s fair to say that the majority of neither sex are reading intellectual materials. Just look at the TV shows that are most popular.

      Actually, there are a lot of female superstars at the Financial Times, one of my favorite papers. Now, whether it’s difficult to find a woman who shares my love of the FT is hard to say. It’s probably difficult. But most women I know belong to book groups that read challenging and thought-provoking stuff. There are plenty of intellectual women around, they’re just equivalent to the beta guys – flying under the radar.

  • Jess

    Resie
    .
    You could really p em off by mentioning too that girls yet again outperformed them in uk gcse results this year, despite a higher ratio of resources being used to support under performing boys.
    .
    And the increase in female physicists is on the rise too I note.
    .
    Recently girls here were advised to act like the leading ladies in old style movies. I recall vividly m monroes political monologues and liz taylors documentaries on technological advances.
    .
    As to overheard conversations: yeah sure girls can talk about sex, clothes and lipstick but why is guys talking sports, tits and latest ps3 games more pious?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And the increase in female physicists is on the rise too I note.
      .
      Recently girls here were advised to act like the leading ladies in old style movies. I recall vividly m monroes political monologues and liz taylors documentaries on technological advances.

      My SIL is an Italian physicist and a femme fatale. The two are not mutually exclusive.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    I have to say, personally, I’ve had conversations about celebrities with women, and conversations about how South Park quotes are ohmigod so hilarious let us quote this episode we just watched at each other for an hour with men, and all things considered I’d rather talk about celebrities.

  • Jess

    Susan- care to comment on the quote below?
    .
    “Thus, society created and ruled by men. Women live in that society too. But no point in making them aware of it”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Thus, society created and ruled by men. Women live in that society too. But no point in making them aware of it”

      Women have played important roles throughout history, but let’s not kid ourselves. Men have had much more creative, constructive – and destructive – influence. Certainly, women didn’t have much of a choice, it’s true. But that doesn’t change the fact that civilization was primarily achieved by males.

  • Jess

    Ozy,
    .
    Did you see what cartman was wearing last night…
    .
    Omg his buns looked so hot…!
    .
    And I hear chef is now going out with Natalie portman..

  • Jess

    Jamie,
    Yes, he’s a shameless baiter I know… I just wanted susan’s perspective on this particular utterance.

  • Abbot

    Redress the redresser. There there, that puts the context back in.
    .
    Academic subjects created by men: Politics, economics, philosophy, science, engineering, etc (everything unrelated to men).
    .
    Thus, society created and ruled by men. Women live in that society too. But no point in making them aware of that.
    .
    No, no point. They dont seem interested in how it all came to be. Boring subject.

  • Abbot

    a shameless baiter
    .
    it is too easy, shooting feminist fish in their tiny contained barrel of influence

  • jamie

    @Jess

    Why don’t you put together a list of all the horrible, disgusting, sexist, insulting, degrading, dehumanizing things he says and see what we get at the end of the month.

    I mostly just ignore him but every now and then I glance over and read his posts and get really fired up. But if he’s the type of guy I think he is (in real life) then he’s probably not going to get his ideal virgin bride. The sluts of the world are probably turning him down too.

    Maybe if we all ignore him he’ll get bored and go back to playing Call of Duty in his mom’s basement.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jamie

      But if he’s the type of guy I think he is (in real life) then he’s probably not going to get his ideal virgin bride. The sluts of the world are probably turning him down too.

      Maybe if we all ignore him he’ll get bored and go back to playing Call of Duty in his mom’s basement.

      Come on, you’re better than that. Why resort to cheap shaming language?Abbot is happily married and kicking back in Mexico having a Corona whenever he feels like it.

  • Jess

    Susan,
    Yeah, well keep her away from my other half thanks very much!

  • jamie

    @Susan

    Sorry, Marmee. I don’t usually say anything out of respect for you, but he’s a jerk who should be ashamed of himself for the things he says.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sorry, Marmee.

      That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me this week.

  • Jess

    Susan….and the ruled by men part? You think feminists are not aware of that?
    And do you think that it’s gradually changing? I.e. Women gradually getting more political power?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan….and the ruled by men part? You think feminists are not aware of that?
      And do you think that it’s gradually changing? I.e. Women gradually getting more political power?

      I don’t think women are ruled by men at all. We have the freedom to do just about anything we choose, and that’s been true for a long time. Feminism’s aims were achieved long ago. Note: for women to get more political power, they have to crave and cultivate political power. Some do, but not nearly as many as men.

  • jamie

    @Susan

    Sorry. That wasn’t meant to be patronizing. I like to imagine you as Mrs. March. It’s a good thing.

  • Jess

    Jamie,
    Xbox- gamer community.
    you make a good point, but I think he’s the type of guy likes to do a lot of things on his own…

  • imnobody

    Well, obviously, both men and women have been necessary for the human race to survive. Of course, women are the most worthy sex in terms in reproduction. You could kill half of men and this wouldn’t change the number of kids produced in the next generation (each surviving man could impregnate two women). In short, there is a shortage of women or a excess of men.

    This is why nature has made women to play safe. A woman’s reproductive ability is too valuable to take risks. A woman can have offspring without taking risks: her only risk is to pick a not suitable suitor so she ends up devoting effort and biological resources to bad genes. This is why women are pickier than men, when it comes to sex.

    In addition, this is why men have created civilization: they have been forced to do that to have a chance of passing their genes. It is difficult to find women so motivated to work like men. Of course, there are exceptions but we are talking about averages. Most women try to get a balance between work and personal life. They usually don’t have the same motivation to work as men. They don’t work like there’s no tomorrow. They have other priorities (and it can be argued that this is a much saner attitude that workaholic men).

    With feminism, we have witness how women have tried to play men’s game. Feminism means the devaluation of woman’s traditional role to embrace men’s traditional role. For feminism, a stay-at-home woman is not producing something valuable for the family: it is a parasite or it is a victim. Worthy women are only the ones who play the men’s game.

    Not only that, feminist they claim to play men’s game better than men, because women are better than men in everything (this is called “equality”). This is delusional. Sorry to say that, women’s will NEVER play men’s game as good as men do, because it’s men’s game. (The same way men will never play women’s game as good as women do).

    Not even with quotas, not even with affirmative action, not even with all the policy measures. When women are given the chance, many of them CHOOSE not to play the man’s game. This is why in Sweden, paradise of feminism and when women are given all kinds of options, there are less female managers than in USA. Women want other thing, not better or worse, but different.

    Yes, there are always excuses and rationalization. The patriarchy, oppression, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. The monastery was a center of culture in the Middle Ages. The nunnery didn’t produce anything of culture. Midwifery didn’t experience a progress until men were allowed to enter that field (which was taboo until the XVII century).

    Women go to college for the last decades. But ,during the last five decades have claimed only 2 percent of the Nobel Prizes in the sciences, 8 percent in literature and 0 percent in economics. You could claim oppression, but Jews (who were sent to the gas chambers and that’s real oppression) have claimed 32 percent of the Nobel Prizes for medicine, 32 percent for physics, 39 percent for economics and 29 percent of all science awards.

    But “oppression” is an excuse to avoid facing a truth that is opposed to one’s ideology. Two centuries from now, if feminism still exists, the differences between men and woman will still be attributed to oppression, even if they have been two centuries of affirmative action. The advantage about oppression is that it is the perfect excuse. You can’t disprove it.

    For example, it is true that women speak about gossip and men speak about sport and tits. But, if there is a program about economics, about politics, etc., 90% of the audience are men. That’s a fact, jack.

    Yes, men have Maxim and woman have Cosmo. But men also have “The Economist” and women have nothing like that (yes, a tiny percentage of women reads “The Economist” too but we are talking about averages).

    This is not to say that women are not important. In fact, it can be argued that they are the most important sex. It depends about how you define the word “important”. What’s more important: earning more or bringing a new life to the world? What’s more important: bringing a new life to the world or discover penicilin? I think men and women are two legs and society can’t live with one leg only. This was one of the mistakes of feminism and it’s a mistake of some MRA guys too.

    Having said that, I stick to my previous statement that I would love that women with intellectual life weren’t so scarce. I think women could say that they would love that men prone to commitment weren’t so scarce. It would be nice to accept our differences instead of producing rationalizations to avoid facing the truth.

  • imnobody

    Yes, men have Maxim and woman have Cosmo. But men also have “The Economist” and women have nothing like that (yes, a tiny percentage of women reads “The Economist” too but we are talking about averages).

    (Of course, it can be argued that the men reading “The Economist” are a tiny percentage too. But the vast majority of readers of this magazine are men and that’s what wanted to say. A magazine devoted to something like politics or economics whose readers are women in majority? Very rare)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    What Imnobody said.

  • Abbot

    for women to get more political power, they have to crave and cultivate political power. Some do, but not nearly as many as men.
    .
    We all have wants and desires. Only a few take action. The majority of those few are men. It does not matter why. All that matters is thats the way it is.
    .
    With that, the feminists could go away. But they won’t. If they only channeled their misdirected persistence into productive action…if only.

  • Jess

    Susan,
    I actually agree with you, I don’t think (western) women are ruled by men either even if abbot says we are.
    .
    I wouldnt agree with the ‘jobs done’ line though, which will no doubt shock you…but there you go.

  • Jess

    Imnobody,
    Yes you are right…. Women should stay at home whilst guys go and discover penicillin and stuff. No women has made any scientific or medical contributions ever.
    .
    Mmmm, what about childless or single women, may they attend work sir?
    .
    And maggie thatcher, clearly failed to match her political opponents. Pah, she didnt even have a 1st class chemistry degree! Talk about a women unable to compete in a mans world!

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    How about if you contribute to the discussion presenting arguments rather than repeating the usual nonsense?

    Women should stay at home whilst guys go and discover penicillin and stuff.

    Where is Imnobody saying women SHOULD stay home and guys SHOULD go discover penicilin? nowhere. Only in your mind, because… its easier to pull a strawman than it is to actually reason?

    So strawman aside, what you you think on the subject? Care to share?

  • Abbot

    I don’t think (western) women are ruled by men either even if abbot says we are.
    .
    BALANCE REDRESS F – A – I – L
    .
    Try reading like the women who lurk here do.
    .
    Thus, society created and ruled by men. Women live in that society too.
    .
    Men rule over society because they created it so they have to own up to what they created. Men do not rule women. The result is, well, what it is. An unbridled mass of confusion and sadness.

  • Abbot

    its easier to pull a strawman than it is to actually reason
    .
    Its a quick balance redress fix, or fail in this case. Feminists rarely debate, and for good reason.

  • Jess

    No wait….is that a backtrack? Surely not?
    .
    Let us see. It is alleged Men create And rule society. And women Live in that society. Ergo men rule women.
    .
    But now it seems we are all in agreement. Men Don’t rule women. Let us rejoice in this moment of agreement.
    .
    Of course I know women are currently underrepresented politically but over time, I’m sure that will improve. I’m not after 52% personally because I think one does have to recognise the biological reality of childbirth slowing and delaying careers but say 40 % world wide is a balance I would be happy with. I don’t know if this is in or out of step with current USA feminism. But I have been feminist- lite for years now.

  • Abbot

    Let us see. It is alleged Men create And rule society. And women Live in that society. Ergo men rule women.
    .
    Its not alleged. All institutions are run by men. Ya know, lets just let that stand. Men rule women. Deal with it. More fun.
    .
    40 % world wide is a balance I would be happy with
    .
    Pass that on to the women of the world. Motivate them. Even the female lurkers here are not motivated. Let us know how it goes.
    .

  • Jess

    Yohami,
    Oh really? Perhaps you could explain what his last few paragraphs are suggesting then?
    .
    is he suggesting we should keep the status quo?
    .
    For me feminism was about providing choice.
    .
    I choose to have kids and a career. I am passionate about both. I know kids will have delayed my career to some extent. But my work and family have been very supportive. I cannot think of a single colleague, of either gender, who works harder than me, either in terms of hours put or intensity.
    .
    In terms of other professions women can be awesome performers, often leading to hostile criticisms of maleness From both genders.
    .
    And it’s still hostile for women still in some lines of work.
    .
    In terms of ability girls are still outperforming males at school age. In terms of reaching the very top males are still going to be over represented due to not having to birth kids. I don’t think feminism worries about that. They are worried about the other structures and pressures and customs that may unfairly block someone’s progress.
    .
    As to other differences, I think there are well understood average differences from multi tasking, linguistics, visual skills, mathematical, lateral industrial thinking, systems analysis, communications skills etc.
    .
    And whilst some of the non exhaustive list above has traits that are often seen as either male or female, there are so many trend breakers as to make it meaningless.
    .
    Feminism is about (reasonably) equal opportunity. You can do xy z If you wanna. Including a traditional route if you so choose.

  • Jess

    One other thing about health and happiness.
    And I hope Susan can forgive a personal field report here.
    .
    Almost all of my friends have children. Most of that subset had careers prior to their 1st child. roughly a 3rd kept a job, another 3rd made a conscious deciosn to be a permanent homemaker, another 3rd kept a job for a bit but just couldn’t balance it.
    .
    Now it would be convenient for me to say that the 2nd category are all miserable but that would be false and the truth is a few love their lives and hate the idea of slogging at work. They have an ok, comfy existence and they know it. But, and its a big but (juicy double) most of that 2nd and 3rd subset have expressed admiration and jealousy of the 1st subset. There are one or two that would like to move from 1st to 2nd I will grant you, but the majority view is what it is.
    .
    I love my kids and career and I’m grateful that feminism allowed me to have both. If I lost my job I would drive myself, my kids and partner totally nuts.
    .
    And when I retire I will be in the volunteer sector full time. I shall be organising cribbage rotas in my care home when my time comes. I’m that kinda pain in the ass.

  • Matt C

    Women are the majority of voters, so they have the majority of political power.

    You have already won Jess.

  • Jess

    And as I have explained in previous posts matt it’s not as simple as that.
    The machinery of the candidate selection process reduces female candidates.
    .
    This is also true of non White candidates which is why both women and blacks are very underrepresented.
    .
    Non whites are 10% of the uk, so why do we only have one fifth of that figure in parliament? Do non whites not have votes?, yes they do but with limited candidates. And most non White men do not have babies so it can’t be a big factor there.
    .
    BUT in time it will get better balanced. Obama really is a symbol of change. Maggie, on a bigger time scale is significant too. because a few generations ago Obama and thatcher would have been inconceivable.
    .
    But to ensure a fairer balance is reached the feminist and anti racial discrimination movements still have a crucial role to play.

  • Jess

    Mugabe Offered his people a free vote.
    Therefore he is a legimate head of state, until you learn he made sure he was the only candidate.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    This thread has officially ended.

  • Abbot

    The machinery of the candidate selection process reduces female candidates.
    .
    They need to run to be reduced. The more that run, the less they will be reduced. If there is desire and motivation to run, then they will. No desire. No motivation. No candidate. The quick solution is to discourage men from running as that is much easier than motivating the unmotivated. So discourage men and you got it made. Get busy.
    .
    Obama really is a symbol of change.
    .
    He is a HIGHLY motivated person. That is the only symbol. So, business as usual.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Matt T wrote:

    Men don’t hate sluts.

    What they hate are sluts who claim that they’re good girls, but apparently are not. This hatred comes from fairly obvious evolutionary reasons.

    There is reason for hatred because of deceit.

    I think that evolutionary reason is used too much with scarce proof.

    Your opinion may be different.

    Any deceit is reason for hatred.

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    Dudes! I go away for a few hours and you’re back to bashing sluts.

    OOPS!

    Disclaimer: I was commenting about careless use of evolutionary explanation for behavior. The evolutionary explanation is often just good or poor hypothesis.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    You´re doing a strawman, while not giving any argument on the subject.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Obama really is a symbol of change.

    It would be nice if that were true but it isn’t. The change is entirely cosmetic, a success for marketing rather than any kind of uprising of the oppressed.

    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. And, as the saying goes, whoever you vote for, the government still gets in.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    The machinery of the candidate selection process reduces female candidates.

    I know this sentence means something to Jess but I have no idea what that is. Without some clear examples & evidence to back it up it sounds like conspiracy theory.

  • imnobody

    Thank you, Yohami. I was going to say that, but you said it for me

    Where is Imnobody saying women SHOULD stay home and guys SHOULD go discover penicilin? nowhere. Only in your mind, because… its easier to pull a strawman than it is to actually reason?

    This is the most infuriating thing when I discuss on the Internet. It happens every time. Feminists putting words in my mouth so they can pull a strawman attacking me for things I have NEVER said. A very cheap tactic by women that have no arguments (and no honesty).

  • Jess

    Yohami & imnobody,
    On the contary, I have made it clear that I intrepeted imnobodies piece as saying it would be better if people returned to traditional gender roles.
    .
    Now if that is incorrect, would either one of you, in the space of say 6 lines, say what he did mean?

  • Jess

    Byron,
    I have explained in detail issues of sparsity of candidature, deliberate or accidental discrimination, historical continuity, the boys club, affirmative action, positive discrimination, under representation of black, openly gay and female politicians.
    .
    Some of these are contentious, but I have debated them in detail previously. Currently the uk labour party is attempting to improve it’s representation.
    .
    Go to guardian.co.uk and type in labour party black candidate
    .
    They guaranteed a female candidate by having 51 females and 0 males up for selection, and they may yet go the 100% black selectees in the future.
    .
    Of course if they do this they can up set, local party White voters and local party males.
    .
    But how does one change the national Party profile speedily, against historical grains, without such measures?

  • Jess

    Byron,
    Change:
    .
    I am happy to say that I think you are wrong.
    And by the time I expire I expect to have seen a non white PM and a female president.
    .
    I expect to see all sorts of things in the next 30 years:
    – dual state settlement with Palestinians
    – a massive world wide implementation of full democratic and female rights
    – an increase in traditional law and order generally
    – a chinese like expectation of smaller family units ie tax hinderances for a 3 rd kid
    – a wider influence of USA and Chinese media and culture in the world
    – A crackdown on poor school discipline ( critical in improving boys results)
    .
    A study last week said uk female middle managers now out earn males. This is great news and is evidence that the culmination of a winning these little battles is that the war is being won.
    .
    And remember it’s not about exceeding men or even having a precise equality but more that they are around the same ball park.
    .
    The fact that the last USA election was between a white woman and a black man is an incredibly powerful and meaningful thing.
    .
    I suppose I should also applaud the fact that the previous incumbant of the white house had special needs. Now that is a real testament to inclusivity….

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    imnobody makes no mention of it being ‘better’ to ‘return to traditional gender roles’, he simply states certain easily observable innate differences between the sexes that account for some of the disparity in male/female achievements in science & politics.

    You’re (possibly unintentionally) interpreting his meaning incorrectly because you are filtering his words, & indeed the entire actual world through the lens & language of feminist ideology.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Men’s magazines talk about politics, sociology, economics, etc. That is, things that are not related to men’s personal life.

    Women’s magazines talk about clothes and fashion (so the woman know what to wear), relationships and sex (so the woman know what to do with her personal life), recipes (so the woman know what to cook), raising kids (just in case the woman is mother), feminism (about women). Me, me, me. The only exception: celebrities (A typical headline: Brad appears with a mysterious woman while Angie’s in Germany. HE IS CHEATING!!!!). Don’t forget the triple exclamation points.

    You put a program about the economic crisis on TV. 90% of audience are men. Women are not interested. Programs with the highest female audience: Oprah, programs about celebrities, etc.

    Academic subjects created by men: Politics, economics, philosophy, science, engineering, etc (everything unrelated to men).

    Academic subjects created by women: Women’s studies (that is, talking about women).

    Observation: today i was in my local Waterstones & got off at the floor with a huge section of books devoted to ‘Military History’, a whole room. No women there at all. Military history is obviously a huge part of the history of politics but doesn’t seem to interest any women at all. Just saying.

    And it does seem rarer, as a rule, for women to perform the job they are supposed to do in politics as well because of the innate biological selfishness of women (still waiting on that post Susan). A feminist MP such as Harriet Harman makes public statements saying she is only going to serve the interests of one half of the people she is employed to represent. As imnobody says, it’s me, me, me, me ,me. Which is the last thing anyone working in politics should be focusing on.

    The personal is NOT political.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    They guaranteed a female candidate by having 51 females and 0 males up for selection, and they may yet go the 100% black selectees in the future.
    .
    Of course if they do this they can up set, local party White voters and local party males.
    .
    But how does one change the national Party profile speedily, against historical grains, without such measures?

    Why would you want to? Why would you want someone less qualified & committed than ten other candidates (being held back) to get the job? To get the result you want?

    For that you approve of demolishing democracy & equality of opportunity? You’ve just proved imnobody’s point: No woman would ever have invented Democracy. Well, no feminist, anyway.

  • Abbot

    A very cheap tactic by women who have no arguments (and no honesty)
    .
    Feminists are a subset of women.
    .
    It would be nice to accept our differences instead of producing rationalizations to avoid facing the truth.
    .
    If the differences are a perceived disadvantage then you get a very cheap tactic by women who have no arguments (and no honesty)

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    by the time I expire I expect to have seen a non white PM and a female president.

    I really have no interest either way. That in itself won’t change anything any more than changing the mascot for a baseball team: A 6 foot chicken or a beaver? Will that change the outcome of the game?

    How about a president with three titties & a trunk? That at least would have some novelty value. I might tune in to the election results for that.

  • BSD

    http://betcheslovethissite.com/2011/07/06/65-sex-and-the-city/

    So the truth is that we like the idea of Sex and the City. Really though? Fuck it, it’s the worst show. Not really true to life at all. It probably helped misguide the entire generation of women born between 1968 and 1983, its original target market when it premiered.

    If we found out we were going to be 35, single, and childless, we’d probably kill ourselves right now, no matter how “fabulous” our #52 gay besties told us we were.

    My generation is pretty smart. Just saying.

  • BSD

    men’s magazines don’t talk about politics, or economics or science. They talk about cars, women, naked women, how to look good, dating advice (Isn’t this all GQ?), sex, more sex, and maybe you can get into PC’s and videogaming. Please don’t tell me Playboy, GQ, and Maxim are magazines of substance. Oh wait, there’s also Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition! (we can throw sports in with what men like that).

    Magazines of substance aren’t men’s magazines. They’re magazines of substance. They’re gender neutral. And if they’re not, well, then I guess I’m a man. For double majoring in two science fields and researching on engineering teams. I’m going to go shave my beard now hurrrr.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BSD
      It’s hard to believe now, but back in the day Playboy was an intellectual publication. From Wikipedia:

      From 1966 to 1976 Robie Macauley was the Fiction Editor at Playboy. During this period the magazine published fiction by Saul Bellow, Sean O’Faolain, John Updike, James Dickey, John Cheever, Doris Lessing, Joyce Carol Oates, Vladimir Nabokov, Michael Crichton, John LeCarre, Irwin Shaw, Jean Shepherd, Arthur Koestler, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Bernard Malamud, John Irving, Anne Sexton, Nadine Gordimer, Kurt Vonnegut and J. P. Donleavy, as well as poetry by Yevgeny Yevtushenko.

  • Abbot

    you are filtering his words, & indeed the entire actual world through the lens & language of feminist ideology.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

  • Abbot

    Magazines of substance aren’t men’s magazines. They’re magazines of substance. They’re gender neutral.
    .
    and mainly read by women?

  • BSD

    @Abbot:

    I wouldn’t know the gender breakdown and, unlike you, I’m not going to pretend to.

  • Abbot

    Exhumed from the failed attempts to twist his words into fantastic tales, here is a repost of the now infamous feminist-infuriating yet level-headed non-emotional essay by Imnobody:
    .
    Well, obviously, both men and women have been necessary for the human race to survive. Of course, women are the most worthy sex in terms in reproduction. You could kill half of men and this wouldn’t change the number of kids produced in the next generation (each surviving man could impregnate two women). In short, there is a shortage of women or a excess of men.
    .
    This is why nature has made women to play safe. A woman’s reproductive ability is too valuable to take risks. A woman can have offspring without taking risks: her only risk is to pick a not suitable suitor so she ends up devoting effort and biological resources to bad genes. This is why women are pickier than men, when it comes to sex.
    In addition, this is why men have created civilization: they have been forced to do that to have a chance of passing their genes. It is difficult to find women so motivated to work like men. Of course, there are exceptions but we are talking about averages. Most women try to get a balance between work and personal life. They usually don’t have the same motivation to work as men. They don’t work like there’s no tomorrow. They have other priorities (and it can be argued that this is a much saner attitude that workaholic men).
    .
    With feminism, we have witness how women have tried to play men’s game. Feminism means the devaluation of woman’s traditional role to embrace men’s traditional role. For feminism, a stay-at-home woman is not producing something valuable for the family: it is a parasite or it is a victim. Worthy women are only the ones who play the men’s game.
    .
    Not only that, feminist they claim to play men’s game better than men, because women are better than men in everything (this is called “equality”). This is delusional. Sorry to say that, women’s will NEVER play men’s game as good as men do, because it’s men’s game. (The same way men will never play women’s game as good as women do).
    Not even with quotas, not even with affirmative action, not even with all the policy measures. When women are given the chance, many of them CHOOSE not to play the man’s game. This is why in Sweden, paradise of feminism and when women are given all kinds of options, there are less female managers than in USA. Women want other thing, not better or worse, but different.
    .
    Yes, there are always excuses and rationalization. The patriarchy, oppression, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. The monastery was a center of culture in the Middle Ages. The nunnery didn’t produce anything of culture. Midwifery didn’t experience a progress until men were allowed to enter that field (which was taboo until the XVII century).
    Women go to college for the last decades. But ,during the last five decades have claimed only 2 percent of the Nobel Prizes in the sciences, 8 percent in literature and 0 percent in economics. You could claim oppression, but Jews (who were sent to the gas chambers and that’s real oppression) have claimed 32 percent of the Nobel Prizes for medicine, 32 percent for physics, 39 percent for economics and 29 percent of all science awards.
    .
    But “oppression” is an excuse to avoid facing a truth that is opposed to one’s ideology. Two centuries from now, if feminism still exists, the differences between men and woman will still be attributed to oppression, even if they have been two centuries of affirmative action. The advantage about oppression is that it is the perfect excuse. You can’t disprove it.
    .
    For example, it is true that women speak about gossip and men speak about sport and tits. But, if there is a program about economics, about politics, etc., 90% of the audience are men. That’s a fact, jack.
    Yes, men have Maxim and woman have Cosmo. But men also have “The Economist” and women have nothing like that (yes, a tiny percentage of women reads “The Economist” too but we are talking about averages).
    .
    This is not to say that women are not important. In fact, it can be argued that they are the most important sex. It depends about how you define the word “important”. What’s more important: earning more or bringing a new life to the world? What’s more important: bringing a new life to the world or discover penicilin? I think men and women are two legs and society can’t live with one leg only. This was one of the mistakes of feminism and it’s a mistake of some MRA guys too.
    .
    Having said that, I stick to my previous statement that I would love that women with intellectual life weren’t so scarce. I think women could say that they would love that men prone to commitment weren’t so scarce. It would be nice to accept our differences instead of producing rationalizations to avoid facing the truth.
    .

  • BSD

    Abbot’s never met my family.

    lol, I know I know, it’s an exception. I think we shouldn’t ignore though, the women who did achieve at the same rate men were achieving, who produced new art, literature and poetry and science (in the 1800’s the sciences were considered acceptable for young women to study, and men studied the money making fields, like history and the classics) and yet were held back and put down and taken advantage of. I think when one of your own is used as an example and driven to the ground, you learn not to talk as much. You’re conditioned to back down out of fear. You lack the drive because you’re told that even if you do, you won’t reap the benefits of success. So you don’t. And this happens in nature, everywhere from honeybees to chimpanzees. If something you do lacks a reward because people will police you and stop you from doing it, then why do it? It’s basic animal behavior.

    On another note (this is related to my family), there’s a certain amount of gender neutrality present in high IQ people. Not that all high IQ individuals are trannies. I just feel like at that point, people don’t necessarily identify themselves with things they were born with, like their genitals, but rather, probably identify themselves with other things, like intelligence, cunning, or maybe even the ability to love and have compassion. I wonder if there’s a correlation between stupid people (the masses) and placing most of your identity in your gender. There’s also a reason for why a lot of successful political philosophers and civilizations have an element of homosexuality….

    Someone might say I’m calling feminists intelligent, but they place a lot of their time shaping their identities as women and what isn’t and is female it’s disturbing. I notice the sphere does the same thing but with men.

  • Abbot

    I wouldn’t know the gender breakdown and, unlike you, I’m not going to pretend to.
    .
    Remind me not to ask simple questions before morning coffee.

  • BSD

    I think also the differences I see lie in the strange dynamics of my family. My American family has been in this country for over three centuries. I notice families like this tend to be more progressively minded than the “Americans” that showed up in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. In my family the men worked on the farm and all sons were expected to keep working on the farm. Manual labor was a man’s work and a son’s job. They also were expected to fight in the wars.

    Whereas women went to school and became teachers, doctors, federal judges, lawyers, scientific researches, etc. Right now since laboring is seen as “lower class” and since a lot of manual labor is being outsourced to China, men are scrambling to hold on to their positions at businesses, legal firms, etc. This change in the view of manual labor probably happened when a flood of Italian and Irish immigrants came to this country and started taking those jobs.

    Also, you can’t really consider the Jews oppressed because they’ve been doing successful things for centuries. The Holocaust was terrible, and so was the Inquisition, but it’s not the same as being a woman. For example, I bet female Jews aren’t as successful as male Jews. >.>’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, you can’t really consider the Jews oppressed because they’ve been doing successful things for centuries. The Holocaust was terrible, and so was the Inquisition, but it’s not the same as being a woman. For example, I bet female Jews aren’t as successful as male Jews. >.>’

      The Jews are the most oppressed people in the history of mankind. Succeeding despite that is a testament to cultural values, not a refutation of the obstacles they’ve faced.

  • BSD

    Also,”The Economist,” isn’t a men’s magazine. I’m sorry. It isn’t. It is an economics magazine.

  • Abbot

    Why would you want to? Why would you want someone less qualified & committed than ten other candidates (being held back) to get the job? To get the result you want?
    .
    Feminists finally realize that promoting women or encouraging them to be motivated is NOT working. The only other way to accomplish their little sniveling goals is to force men to work less or be less motivated. That of course is a sound strategy for “leveling the playing field” aka regression to the mean.
    .
    For that you approve of demolishing democracy & equality of opportunity?
    .
    Well of course. We are talking about narcissists feminists here, aren’t we? In fact, putting in “feel good” candidates is worth the sacrifice of having the best and brightest and most motivated leaders. Just because. So there.

  • BSD

    Actually, I was just thinking. Throughout history, few men have accomplished anything. Most men don’t accomplish anything in their lives, or rather, anything notable. So it’s a largely a numbers game. And until women catch up (without affirmative action) then we won’t see things start to level out.

    Though I wonder what makes men say that there is affirmative action for women? Every time women outperform men, men blame it on misandry or affirmative action. But, aside from some interest groups and scholarships, is there really affirmative action in favor of women? Don’t girls outperform boys in school? So wouldn’t it make sense that more girls would go to college? Like I said before, a lot of men like to be day laborers and work with their hands. Not as many women do that. So it would make sense that a portion of boys just don’t want to sit still and study. It doesn’t make men inferior. Just makes them different. And it would make sense for why women have been populating academia. They don’t plan on joining the military or becoming star athletes.

    In addition, studies have shown that women are more likely to apply to a job if she fits nearly all the criteria for the job, whereas men will apply even if they fit only one. This explains the disparities in gender in terms of higher level jobs at companies. In short, women are more self conscious and self aware. In addition, companies with a more heterogenous makeup tend to be more successful, probably why some people hire women over men, even in cases where individuals have similar credentials.

    The issue with women is also that we not only have to fight against men, but we also have to fight against ourselves. Case in point– I generally don’t work well with other girls, and if I were in a position to hire people, I wouldn’t hire women (my mother also avoided hiring women). This is a sign that a woman’s main battle is with her own kind. Even feminism isn’t a cohesive movement, because women tend not to be as cohesive. I prefer working with men because then I can easily take over the group, tell everyone what they need to do, and they do it. Men need a bit of cajoling to get work done (unless it’s something they really love) since they tend to have more trouble focusing but they’re pretty consistent. But I can mastermind everything,come up with the plan, and guarantee group success. I can take over things they don’t feel comfortable with (presentations), etc. The problem with women is that working as a group is impossible, they all want to take over and their ideas are worse than mine. Fuck women.

    I wonder if on some level, a man’s ability to be a team player and suck it up is probably what helps him in businesses a lot more than women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BSD
      Welcome back, how did your exam go?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    “The Economist,” isn’t a men’s magazine. I’m sorry. It isn’t. It is an economics magazine

    ..whose readership is overwhelmingly male, which is imnobodys point: the
    building, engineering, finance, mathematics, hard science, real politics (as opposed to PR politics), are all essentially male pursuits & the ‘trade magazines’ of these pursuits will have a far far greater male readership than female.

    The magazines you listed (GQ, Maxim, Men’s fitness etc) are a relatively recent phenomena of publishers trying to apply the same success formula (selling consumer products, making women focus obsessively upon their appearance & their bodies rather than the greater world) that worked so well with women to men, with a certain amount of success among a certain demographic. That doesn’t change the ratio of readership of ‘serious’ works.

    And even though men have been hit the hardest by the recession, still all the trades that concern keeping the actual real world functioning are male. Without them women would still be sitting in puddles huddled under blankets eating dead rats that died from natural causes. There would be no democracy, philosophy, no elecricity, no buildings, no homes, no pill, no mammogram, no lazer surgery, no computers, no telephones, no human rights, no votes for anyone, no symphonies, no jazz, no blues, no rock & roll… It’s a pretty much endless list & I could go on & go on & go on but i don’t want to outstay my welcome so I’ll leave it at that.

  • Abbot

    a man’s ability to be a team player and suck it up is probably what helps him in businesses a lot more than women.
    .
    Next thing feminists will attempt to bust the “team player” attitude in order to bring men down to the chaotic and less successful female approach. Equality no matter what! No matter the cost to the individual and society. If ya cant beat em, bring em down! See quotes from feminist below:
    .
    And remember it’s not about exceeding men or even having a precise equality but more that they are around the same ball park.
    .
    But how does one change the national Party profile speedily, against historical grains, without such measures?

    .
    BRING MEN DOWN!
    .
    Maybe they will succeed. Maybe they will get men to not try so hard and give em a break. Maybe they will not force their demands on men so men won’t shut them out. Maybe they will stop spewing sex poz diatribes and telling men they must “approve” and “accept” the leftover results. Men have yet to organize en masse against feminists and that is the last thing feminists want. Play nice. Be nice. And maybe you’ll get somewhere.
    .

  • BSD

    I don’t get the concept that men try so hard, though. They can be pretty lazy.

    You know that one kid in class who never does his homework but somehow gets C’s because he aces all the tests? Or that one weird kid who just doesn’t do crap? Or the class clown? Those are always boys. Girls usually always have their work done. They never have that rep.

    Maybe it’s a generational thing, though.

  • Abbot

    It’s a pretty much endless list & I could go on & go on & go on but i don’t want to outstay my welcome so I’ll leave it at that.
    .
    The female lurkers here are finally getting a good dose of reality. Balance redresser countdown…5, 4, 3, 2….GO!

  • BSD

    To expand on what I said above, I think I just mean that girls as a whole tend to be more consistent. Whereas boys tend to be all over the place. More boys makeup the top 1% of a graduating class, for example, but they also makeup the bottom 1%.

    BTW, is this what it’s like to have a penis?

    http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2356#comic

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I don’t get the concept that men try so hard, though. They can be pretty lazy.

    Yep, black people too. And mexicans.

    You know that one kid in class who never does his homework but somehow gets C’s because he aces all the tests? Or that one weird kid who just doesn’t do crap? Or the class clown? Those are always boys. Girls usually always have their work done. They never have that rep.

    Well, this is true – as Baumeister put it, nature plays dice with men much more than with women. At the top of the bell curve there is all that predominantly male genius, the Mozarts & the Shakespeares & the Einsteins. But it also means that down at the very very bottom the most startlingly dumb people are male too. Women tend to do their homework, sit up straight & remain somewhere in the middle, not too hot & not too cold. But women don’t write symphonies.

    http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2010/10/is-there-anything-good-about-men.html

  • Abbot

    More boys makeup the top 1% of a graduating class, for example, but they also makeup the bottom 1%.
    .
    Women huddle in the relatively risk-free middle. Their choice. Men are spread between rulers of nations and the highest ranks of the homeless. Men accept being subject to the best and the worst. No complaints. No complaints until some group claims that men have the power and should not. Let that group go first help all the men, most of the men, who are barely known. Until then, they can go shut their big fat spewing yaps. Thank you very much and good luck.
    .

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    is this what it’s like to have a penis?

    I always think the best way to explain it to a woman is: Imagine having a finger with a clit on the end.

  • BSD

    @Abbot:

    I guess I must be a really special snowflake then, because I had the highest GPA of my high school full of thousands of students. Only other people up there near me were male. So I>men? This is really improving my self esteem right now, actually.

    But really, I think one of the smartest people I knew in terms of science was not only a girl, but a foreign girl. So it’s interesting how so many women from supposedly “sexist” cultures (India and Eastern Europe) are becoming engineers and scientists, doctors and mathematicians. Most of the people who win awards at what is called the “little nobel prize” are immigrants or children of immigrants. So what is up with American culture?

    I think the difference is that (studies have shown) men overstate their intelligence. Women tend to understate it.Case in point, the large number of men in the sphere who claim to have IQ’s of 130 and above. Statistically speaking, that’s highly unlikely. You might have earned this score on an online IQ test, but then again, so can anyone who takes it, it’s not an accurate measure of intelligence, take a real IQ test. I think the largest wakeup in terms of male intelligence in the sphere for me was when Roosh talked about his SAT score, and it was lower than the socre I got when I took the SAT (at age 11 for a special program). Huge wakeup call. There’s a few gems, but a lot of average Joes here. Nothing wrong with that. A lot of women in the sphere also emphasize over and over how they’re not that smart and don’t bother to have intellectual discussions. So this is typical human behavior.

    I don’t see how avoiding being overwhelmingly successful is risk free. It isn’t, you’re selling yourself short. So unless you admit that there is a risk associated with being a successful woman (would men bring her down, is she more likely to be punished for things a successful man otherwise wouldn’t be punished for?) I don’t see why someone would do that…

  • Jess

    Byron,
    Well I could accuse you of looking through a set of lens too. Just a different prescription.
    Let me see if i can break down the imno body post
    .
    1. Well, obviously, both men and women have been necessary for the human race to survive……
    -No argument there.
    .
    2. This is why nature has made women to play safe. A woman’s reproductive ability is too valuable to take risks……This is why women are pickier than men, when it comes to sex.
    -A bit iffy, but I will go along with the generalisation.
    .
    3. It is difficult to find women so motivated to work like men. Of course, there are exceptions but we are talking about averages. 
    -Total BS. Women work every bit a hard as guys. It may be true that in terms of average performance at the highest point of a particular career path the average male performance is marginally higher than that of the female if birthing is involved. Having said that recent research said female middle managers were outperforming their male counterparts in the uk . Middle managers work very hard.

    4. With feminism, we have witness how women have tried to play men’s game. Feminism means the devaluation of woman’s traditional role to embrace men’s traditional role. 
    -Who said that? When? Where? Feminism used the importance of motherhood to change employment law!
    .
    5. For feminism, a stay-at-home woman is not producing something valuable for the family: it is a parasite or it is a victim. Worthy women are only the ones who play the men’s game.
    -I defy you to find any feminist literature that says that.
    .
    6. Not only that, feminist they claim to play men’s game better than men, because women are better than men in everything (this is called “equality”). This is delusional. Sorry to say that, women’s will NEVER play men’s game as good as men do, because it’s men’s game. 
    -wtf? Do you mean golf ? The board room? better tell that to all the female CEOs, ministers, sports stars etc
    .
    7. Not even with quotas, not even with affirmative action, not even with all the policy measures. When women are given the chance, many of them CHOOSE not to play the man’s game. 
    -and why should they if they don’t wanna? Not all men wanna be high fliers either. I have offered guys promotion and they have refused because their wife was ill, or had a young baby or didn’t want the extra stress.
    .
    8. This is why in Sweden, paradise of feminism and when women are given all kinds of options, there are less female managers than in USA. Women want other thing, not better or worse, but different.
    -SOME do, for sure. 
    .
    9. Yes, there are always excuses …… …..can’t disprove it.
    – all that gumf I have covered in the past but BSD did a great job today.
    .
    10. But, if there is a program about economics, about politics, etc., 90% of the audience are men. That’s a fact, jack.
    – really? Sources please (TM S Walsh)
    .
    11. What’s more important: bringing a new life to the world or discover penicilin?
    -mmmm well the latter saved millions of lives. If I have 2 children I have made 2 lives. I think fleming beats me on that one.
    .
    12.  I think men and women are two legs and society can’t live with one leg only. This was one of the mistakes of feminism and it’s a mistake of some MRA guys too.
    – now I am saying this statement, in the context of everything said before, is suggesting the women should stick to child rearing and guys to the important work. If you think otherwise then let’s hear it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    On the contary, I have made it clear that I intrepeted imnobodies piece as saying it would be better if people returned to traditional gender roles.
    .
    Now if that is incorrect, would either one of you, in the space of say 6 lines, say what he did mean?

    Just read it again. Take all the time you need.

  • BSD

    What also throws me off is how men in the sphere say that child rearing isn’t inferior, then make comments like,”Men do the important stuff.” It contradicts their original statements.

    Also, in regards to girls and schooling, I just remembered a difference between girls and boys. Virtually every boy with a GPA that was up there with me had very few extracurriculars, if none. He did the bare minimum to get his required service hours and graduate. He maybe did a sport for a bit, and even then spent most of his time on the bench doing his homework. His GPA wasn’t enough to get him into honors societies, which was pretty embarrassing.

    Whereas girls were the president of clubs, had a variety of extracurriculars, spoke more languages, played instruments ,did ballet, did sports AND community service, etc. Girls were more likely to get into really good colleges as a result of holistically being better students.

    For example, a boy with an SAT of 2300 and a weighted GPA of 6.6 vs. a girl with an SAT of 2250, a weighted GPA of 6.0 and 600 hours of service done consistently at a nursing home (as a project), plus the president and organizer of various clubs and philanthropies, and a concert pianist, plus the recipient of various writing and science awards. Yes, her GPA and SAT are slightly lower, but that’s forgivable given her accomplishments.

    Girls are more likely to be the latter, not the former student. Boys are more likely to be the former student. They don’t multitask as well and need to spend more time on something to do really well on it. Whereas I think some girls give themselves more room for slight imperfection, if it means they can be successful in a multitude of areas. Multiplex vision vs. tunnel vision.

  • BSD
  • Abbot

    I think the difference is that (studies have shown) men overstate their intelligence. Women tend to understate it
    .
    Being smart can be helpful. Being motivated and taking action is what sets people apart outside of academia. Does not matter who they are or where they come from. Combine less motivated with ego and jealousy of those who achieve more and you got yourself a feminist.

  • Abbot

    -Total BS. Women work every bit a hard as guys
    .
    Until about 6pm when they leave the office to go do whatever balances out their lives. Men should leave too at that time. But they don’t
    .
    Feminism means the devaluation of woman’s traditional role to embrace men’s traditional role.
    -Who said that? When? Where? Feminism used the importance of motherhood to change employment law!

    .
    Yeah, office buildings and employment law are components of a woman’s traditional role
    .
    For feminism, a stay-at-home woman is not producing something valuable for the family: it is a parasite or it is a victim. Worthy women are only the ones who play the men’s game.
    -I defy you to find any feminist literature that says that.

    .
    “[Housewives] are dependent creatures who are still children…parasites.” ~ Gloria Steinem, “What It Would Be Like If Women Win,” Time, August 31, 1970.
    .
    “A parasite sucking out the living strength of another organism…the [housewife's] labor does not even tend toward the creation of anything durable…. [W]oman’s work within the home [is] not directly useful to society, produces nothing. [The housewife] is subordinate, secondary, parasitic. It is for their common welfare that the situation must be altered by prohibiting marriage as a ‘career’ for woman.” ~ Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex, 1949.
    .
    “[The] housewife is a nobody, and [housework] is a dead-end job. It may actually have a deteriorating effect on her mind…rendering her incapable of prolonged concentration on any single task. [She] comes to seem dumb as well as dull. [B]eing a housewife makes women sick.” ~ Sociologist Jessie Bernard in The Future of Marriage, 1982.
    .
    “The chief thing is to get women to take part in socially productive labor, to liberate them from ‘domestic slavery,’ to free them from their stupefying and humiliating subjugation to the eternal drudgery of the kitchen and the nursery. This struggle will be a long one, and it demands a radical reconstruction, both of social technique and of morale. But it will end in the complete triumph of Communism.” ~ V.I. Lenin, International Working Women’s Day Speech , 1920.
    .
    “Women owe Frieden an incalculable debt for The Feminine Mystique…. Domesticity was not a satisfactory story of an intelligent woman’s life.” ~ Elizabeth Fox-Genovese, Feminism Is Not the Story of My Life, 1996.
    .
    “Being a housewife is an illegitimate profession… The choice to serve and be protected and plan towards being a family-maker is a choice that shouldn’t be. The heart of radical feminism is to change that.” ~ Vivian Gornick, University of Illinois, “The Daily Illini,” April 25, 1981.
    .
    “[As long as the woman] is the primary caretaker of childhood, she is prevented from being a free human being.” ~ Kate Millett, Sexual Politics, 1969.
    .

  • Isabel

    How does this work? Guys say they want intelligent girls and that there are barely any of them, which is a barefaced lie by the way. There are plenty of intelligent girls; the problem is that you deliberately overlook them in the first place and then wonder why you can’t see them.Then they say that intelligence is too much of a masculine trait and it would make them feel like they are ‘competing’ with her so it’s better if a girl sticks to inconsequential stuff (most of the time) and doesn’t ‘bother’ them too much with her opinions. So what is it? I can’t believe you call US the complicated gender!

    I know the “men find me, my IQ and success intimidating wah wah waaaaah” meme is mostly projection from females who are lacking in one or more areas but refuse to acknowledge it, but there’s so much backpedalling and misinformation out there that I’m not surprised they have the arrogance to say it.

    Meh, raw IQ is passed on from the mother — well, grandmother — anyway, mostly by virtue of the Y chromosome being both outnumbered and eroded.

    Deal with it, gentlemen. ;D

    http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/4237
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/brainy-sons-owe-intelligence-to-their-mothers-1339099.html
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15420804.300

    (But then again we wimminz also give you haemophilia, male pattern baldness and colour blindness so hold off on the flowers and gifts just yet. Though if you insist, dark chocolate would be really really nice.)

  • BSD

    Abbot:

    Being smart can be helpful. Being motivated and taking action is what sets people apart outside of academia. Does not matter who they are or where they come from. Combine less motivated with ego and jealousy of those who achieve more and you got yourself a feminist.

    Ok I normally skip over what you write but this has to go in the comments Hall of Fame for Hooking up smart.

    @Susan:

    The Jews are the most oppressed people in the history of mankind. Succeeding despite that is a testament to cultural values, not a refutation of the obstacles they’ve faced.

    And they never hesitate to remind us of that fact! I’m sorry, but I’m slightly irritated by Jewish American culture sometimes. And it’s not that I’m taking away the Holocaust, or anything that happened. But I feel like they constantly want to relive it over and over and over. I understand the need to prevent it from happening again, except it has! Maybe not on the same scale, but genocide has happened and continues to happen everywhere today.

    I understand that there was the Inquisition and Jews were forced to live in the gheto, and even in some cities, laws were passed in the US prohibiting Jews from living in nice neighborhoods. Jews were blamed for plagues because they were moneylenders. I understand the burden they carry. But on some level, I feel like Jews are given special privelidges far more than Christians. In a predominantly Christian city, virtually every school holiday I had was for a Jewish holiday. Which should be nice, except it split up all the days off so we couldn’t ever have a nice “fall break” like other school districts. For being a minority they get so much special treatment it’s ridiculous. But it’s okay. It’s not okay for blacks (who were kept as SLAVES), it’s not okay for Hispanics, but it’s okay for Jews because of the Holocaust.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BSD
      Your original remarks on Jews were ignorant and anti-Semitic, but I appreciate your second thoughts. I have nothing but respect for Judaism as a religion, and have chosen to live and raise my children in largely Jewish communities (>50%). My closest friends are Jewish, my brother and his family are Jewish, and my own parish (Jesuit) is extremely admiring of and respectful of Judaism as well.

      In a predominantly Christian city, virtually every school holiday I had was for a Jewish holiday.

      No it wasn’t. In my predominantly Jewish town, schools get off one day for Rosh Hashanah and that’s it. Some districts may also give a day for Yom Kippur, and one day for Passover. By the way, none of these are given if the holiday falls on a weekend. Unless you attended the Solomon Schechter School in your city, you’re exaggerating to the point of lying.

      Every year our best friends decorate our tree with us, and we sit at their Seder table. It’s one of my favorite holidays of the year. If they were ever threatened or persecuted, I would risk my life for them.

      Jews don’t seek special treatment, and there’s no affirmative action for Jews. They have a culture that reveres education, which leads to achievement and financial success. It’s honestly won.

      For the record I wasn’t talking about genetic superiority. In my lifetime that designation has gone from Russian Jews to Asians, cultures that reward, even demand, hard work and achievement. I don’t believe in intellectual racial superiority.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Jess,

    I defy you to find any feminist literature that says that

    How can you be feminist and not know what the movement is about? you seriously have no idea? you say stuff like “I defy to to find a single femminist who has said anything like that…” and there is plenty. So whats next?

    I guess whats next is for you to say feminism is no longer about that, or that every moment has some weird voces that dont represent the whole, or that these voices are not mainstream… but while you´re at it do you know what you are saying?

    Its like seeing a christian saying “I defy you to find one single time the church has done anything wrong”. Do you really want the evidence? are you actually prepared to PROCESS the evidence? will it matter if you get it?

  • Abbot

    Feminism has failed in its transformative mission, Hirshman argues, because it hasn’t insisted that women work. “Bounding home is not good for women and it’s not good for society,” she writes
    .
    Hirshman’s principal quarrel is with what she calls “choice feminism,” which holds that the goal of feminism isn’t so much the promotion of certain political and social goals as it is providing woman with the same right of self-determination/definition as men. Bluntly stated, the problem, according to Hirshman, with giving women these kind of choices is that some — actually, too many — women will make the wrong choice.
    .
    These “best-educated” women will, much like the “coppertops” in The Matrix, choose in the mistaken belief that they are free and, thus, perpetuate the status quo. What’s needed — and what Get To Work sets out to provide — is counsel that helps the “most-privileged” and “best-educated” take the red pill and assure women their rightful place among the flourishing “elites” and “rulers.”
    .
    This counsel includes avoiding emulating Frida Kahlo (is it me or is everybody picking on Mexicans these days?), i.e., don’t major in politically useless stuff like Art or English. Women should be aware of their “bargaining power during courtship.” They should consider marrying younger or “much older” men.
    .
    And, of course, there’s “reproductive blackmail.” A “reproductive strike” may be necessary to combat “male reneging” on the domestic front. In any case, by no means should the “best-educated” women have a second child — that is the express lane to dropping out of the work force.
    .
    The goal of all these strategies is to keep the “best-educated” women from drawing “the short straw at the dining room table,” i.e., being saddled with domestic obligations that prevent them from doing what’s really important: assuming their place among the “flourishing” “elites” and “rulers.”

  • Isabel

    The flipside of this is that we may also be responsible for stupidity. Sorry about that. :/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The flipside of this is that we may also be responsible for stupidity. Sorry about that. :/

      That’s why it’s OK for you to fool around with a dumb jock, but a smart man should not marry a bimbo :)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    Just a reminder.

    The point being made with Jews, is that feminism says the reason women underperform men in traditional male areas is because of oppression.

    But if oppression has such an effect, it has to be visible and measurable everywhere, in every oppressed class, group, segment, etc.

    So for the white non jew women to underperform jews as a class, the white non jew women would have be be more oppressed as a class than jews, black people, hispanic people, etc. Is that what you see?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Crap. Here goes my ramble type proofed

    I defy you to find any feminist literature that says that

    How can you be feminist and not know what the movement is about? do you seriously have no idea? how can you say stuff like “I defy to to find a single femminist who has said anything like that…” when there are plenty of examples? So whats next?

    I guess whats next is for you to say feminism is no longer about that, or that every movement has some weird voces that dont represent the whole, or that these voices are not mainstream…? but while you´re at it do you know what you are saying?

    Its like a christian saying “I defy you to find a single time the church has done anything wrong” because this christian thinks the church is about the love of christ ONLY and is unaware about the history and what actually happens in the world in the name of christ.

    Do you really want the evidence? are you actually prepared to PROCESS the evidence? will it matter if you get it? Are you aware you have no idea of what you are talking about? Are you prepared to become aware?

  • BSD

    @Isabel:

    I never had a problem with guys, even if I was more academically successful than them or whatever. I never understand the women who said men were intimidated by them. But then again, I have a really high pitched voice and giant eyes and I’m really tiny. I’d like to be intimidating but I think people would only laugh at me. I’m awkward.

    @Susan:

    Actually I need to rectify my Holocaust comment because my second comment also sounded really insensitive.

    I’m not saying that what happened wasn’t that bad. It’s just that there are several other groups of people in the world that are suffering, are discriminated against, are goign through a lot. Quantifying badness isn’t really easy. And unfortunately certain things can be subjective. I do agree that Jewish success is a testament to their culture, along with a certain unity and community they possess to support one another. But…I just don’t know how to word anything without sounding offensive today. Sorry.

    I just feel like saying,”X group went through all this and was still successful, why can’t you do it!” is a largely inadequate argument. While maybe cultural factors contribute to Jewish success, there are also a lot of other factors, in terms of timing and etc. that contribute to things. I don’t think it’s an inherent genetic superiority, and I think maybe that’s why I was originally opposed to that statement, because it was being used in a biological context. Because there are plenty of Jews that converted to Christianity (I had family members that did this) and blended in with everyone else to avoid the Inquisition and discrimination. Their genetics didn’t magically change from one minute to the next. If anything, it’s more of a cultural factor, as you stated. If there is some sort of genetic difference, then that would be like saying natural selection….played a roll in that. And that sounds so messed up to say. I don’t know. I keep digging the hole deeper here….

    And my test went well, thanks for asking.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    men in the sphere say that child rearing isn’t inferior, then make comments like,”Men do the important stuff.” It contradicts their original statements.

    There is a bit of that, it’s true. If I did that just then I would like to say that I believe childrearing should be a highly esteemed & honoured role in our society – not least because to do it well is extremely hard. And rare. As Gore Vidal once said, good parenting is a gift, which is something most parents find out far too late and most children find out right away.

    The reason I stress male achievement is that there is an imbalance in our society that needs addressing, in that the unique male contribution has lost its place of honour too, & in fact even the merest mention of it must be publicly reviled. Women can do anything men can do. But men can’t give birth.

    You mentioned earlier that you thought that the laziness in boys you see might simply be a generational thing. And I think there is some truth to that. It would seem the last few generations that boys are growing up being penalized & shamed for being male, being told they are oppressors while they’re still learning to walk, told that they are just the same as girls. Just badly behaved, malfunctioning girls.

    As a result we have lost generations of boys that have ceased to try & no-one is concerned about, least of all feminists. Though they should be – If three generations of disaffected men decide to rise up in any numbers that would be a pretty scary world. Would be better to care now & maybe do some good rather than later when it’s far too late.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The reason I stress male achievement is that there is an imbalance in our society that needs addressing, in that the unique male contribution has lost its place of honour too, & in fact even the merest mention of it must be publicly reviled. Women can do anything men can do. But men can’t give birth.

      You mentioned earlier that you thought that the laziness in boys you see might simply be a generational thing. And I think there is some truth to that. It would seem the last few generations that boys are growing up being penalized & shamed for being male, being told they are oppressors while they’re still learning to walk, told that they are just the same as girls. Just badly behaved, malfunctioning girls.

      As a result we have lost generations of boys that have ceased to try & no-one is concerned about, least of all feminists. Though they should be – If three generations of disaffected men decide to rise up in any numbers that would be a pretty scary world. Would be better to care now & maybe do some good rather than later when it’s far too late.

      +100 Very important! As someone who has raised a son and a daughter in the U.S. I can assure you that Byron’s view is frighteningly accurate and not the least bit exaggerated. It may be worse in Boston, since we leave near the demonic Harvard School of Education. But it’s a problem plaguing our nation, our families and our economy.

  • Abbot

    How can you be feminist and not know what the movement is about? do you seriously have no idea?
    .
    There is a small amount of rational good that feminists say or write. Most of it will require so much backpeddling to come clean and be appealing to the target audience today that it may not be possible to salvage. Its embarrassing stuff and few want to own it. That’s understandable. But yet, this new what – 4th wave, 7th – or whatever the whim wave du jour is once again sticks its big fat nasty ass foot in its mouth. Spewing sex pozz raunch is NOT going to patch things up. Being brash is NOT the way to negotiate. If alienation of all society and especially men is the goal, then just keep on belching and men will actually organize against you. Not the way to go.

  • Mike C

    How does this work? Guys say they want intelligent girls and that there are barely any of them, which is a barefaced lie by the way. There are plenty of intelligent girls; the problem is that you deliberately overlook them in the first place and then wonder why you can’t see them.Then they say that intelligence is too much of a masculine trait and it would make them feel like they are ‘competing’ with her so it’s better if a girl sticks to inconsequential stuff (most of the time) and doesn’t ‘bother’ them too much with her opinions. So what is it? I can’t believe you call US the complicated gender!

    I’m unclear what your main point here is. Whether you are trying to ascertain what the real priority of male preferences are, or whether you just want to argue them because they don’t conform to what you want.

    Fact. For most guys, intelligence is just not that important a trait in long-term romantic/sexual partner. That doesn’t mean most guys want to be with someone bordering on mental retardation, but it does mean once you’ve reached say 120, 130, 140, 150 IQ it adds nothing to your desirability.

    For most guys, the single most important factor is physical appearance. Full stop. Now the problem with intelligence in women is my experience is there is a fairly robust inverse correlation between the intelligence of a girl and how much effort she puts into the way she looks. And lest strawmen start to be attacked, I am not talking sex and city level obsession with looks, makeup, shoes, fashion. I’ve always noticed the “smart girl” retort is to attack that vapid, superficial woman only concerned with looks to a narcissistic level. Quality guys don’t want that woman either.

    If you are a woman who wants to expand the pool so to speak, I’m taking really simple shit. If you are overweight, lose the weight. Go get a professional makeover just once so you can see how a pro would accentuate your natural looks.

    If you are somewhat physically attractive, pleasant and fun, AND INTELLIGENT you’ll have to be beating guys off with sticks because you will be a rarity.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Yomama,

    Do you really want the evidence? are you actually prepared to PROCESS the evidence? will it matter if you get it?

    I think the short answer to that is Nope, not even one little bit.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Its like a christian saying “I defy you to find a single time the church has done anything wrong” because this christian thinks the church is about the love of christ ONLY and is unaware about the history and what actually happens in the world in the name of christ.

    I keep falling back on fundamentalist christianity when looking for something to compare feminism to, too. It just seems very natural, somehow.

  • Abbot

    Using men as a benchmark to run you life is a doomed strategy.
    .
    “Choice feminism” claims that staying home with the kids is just one more feminist option. Funny that most men rarely make the same “choice.” Exactly what kind of choice is that?
    .
    http://prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=10659
    .

  • Mike C

    I just feel like saying,”X group went through all this and was still successful, why can’t you do it!” is a largely inadequate argument. While maybe cultural factors contribute to Jewish success, there are also a lot of other factors, in terms of timing and etc. that contribute to things. I don’t think it’s an inherent genetic superiority, and I think maybe that’s why I was originally opposed to that statement, because it was being used in a biological context.

    There is some evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest people on Earth along with the Brahmin caste of Indians. I’d bet we have a few commenters here descended from that latter group.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

    I know it is often taboo to start linking genetics into this stuff, but it is what it is. Racehorses have been bred for centuries to boost certain attributes. That certain attributes in humans have a genetic component really shouldn’t be so controversial, but it is because of how people might attempt to influence society and policy based on it.

    Off the point, but were SATs and GPAs requantified. I graduated high school in 1991 and the highest SAT score was 1600 with 800 being the max on both verbal and math. The max GPA was 4.0 but honors classes would get you a 5 for an A and a 4 for a B so it was possible to graduate with higher than a 4.0, but not 6.0 something. Anyways, to the IQ question of various commenters/posters I once posted a link that correlated SAT score to IQ. At least for me, it was pretty much spot on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There is some evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest people on Earth along with the Brahmin caste of Indians.

      The Brahmins were made up of scholars, teachers and priests, so it’s not surprising they’d be the smartest people in India. When I was growing up Russian Jews were thought to be the smartest because they excelled at chess. Today some argue that Asians are genetically superior. It seems to me that whatever group we’re calling the smartest at any one time is one that emphasizes math and science. I once asked an Indian classmate at Wharton why they were so incredibly good at math. He said: Well, first we’re the smartest people in India to get in here and second, we count money, make change, do simple equations constantly from the time we are two.

      Americans don’t even make change anymore. The American kids who shine are not necessarily the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews, they’re the children of women like the Tiger Mother.

  • Isabel

    I never had a problem with guys, even if I was more academically successful than them or whatever. I never understand the women who said men were intimidated by them. But then again, I have a really high pitched voice and giant eyes and I’m really tiny. I’d like to be intimidating but I think people would only laugh at me. I’m awkward.

    Ah, no! I wasn’t talking about you specifically. Sorry if it came across that way. I was talking more about ball-busters who have some sort of character flaw but decide to consciously pin it on IQ or their six-figure salary instead of say, their grooming or behaviour. Co-sign on not having problems with guys. I have a problem with windowlickers, not men. Men tend to be kind to me and I, to them.

  • Abbot

    Do you really want the evidence? are you actually prepared to PROCESS the evidence? will it matter if you get it?
    I think the short answer to that is Nope, not even one little bit.

    .
    Ah, too bad. Here is one little bit:
    .
    “[Housewives] are dependent creatures who are still children…parasites.”
    .
    ~ Gloria Steinem, “What It Would Be Like If Women Win,” Time, August 31, 1970.

  • SayWhaat

    There is some evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest people on Earth along with the Brahmin caste of Indians. I’d bet we have a few commenters here descended from that latter group

    You’d make money on that bet. ;)

  • Isabel

    @ Mike

    Like I said, I *personally* don’t have an issue with men or their preferences because as it stands, today’s cultural preference sways kindly towards my favour so I don’t feel compelled to bite the hand that feeds me, so to speak. I’m not even greatly intelligent to begin with so what bone do I have to pick? Sure, I got As at school but only in the one subject I excelled at. For everything else I’m a bona fide B-grade student and I’m perfectly happy with that. I’m content with most things in life.

    However, that doesn’t mean I’m oblivious to what people are saying around me or that I don’t register the inconsistency of their words. Yes, yes, one man’s ballbuster is another man’s sweet dominatrix but going beyond that, why the general disparity? It’s a little similar to girls saying they like nice, sweet guys but then choosing to date stray Neanderthals. Eek. I know betas around the world just took a sharp intake of breath at my heretical comparison but honestly? It is confusing and… kinda annoying.

    This is the kind of stuff I hear on a regular basis, give or take:

    – “Treat women like naughty children. Be kind and courteous to them but don’t bother discussing politics, technology or science with them.”
    (aside: if you won’t discuss it with Derpina in the first place, how do you know she’s unable to understand?)

    – “I really wish I could meet a like-minded girl! I would love to be able to discuss the works of [insert literary genius] but sadly, most young women today are anti-intellectual and would sooner discuss Christian Louboutin than Nordahl Grieg.

    -“Intelligence doesn’t matter.”

    – “Intelligence matters greatly.”

    -“I hate stupid women. In fact I just hate stupid people.” (courtesy of my brother)

    – “It doesn’t matter much. As in, it is not a deal breaker but a nice bonus.”

    WHAT GIVES?!

    And being a man yourself, what’s the general consensus?

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    It is possible that with Ashkenazi Jews, there’s a certain amount of…natural selection. Only the smartest and most capable and most healthy would survive all the trials they survived, including the Holocaust.

    Along with the Brahmin. The Brahmin could only marry other Brahmin, correct? So high IQ individuals marry other high IQ individuals, creating high IQ babies?

    In regards to SAT and IQ:

    yeah, that’s why I made the comment that Roosh and his followers are pretty average.

    SAT’s include a writing component now which brings up the score to 2400. I’ve taken the exam you took (at age 11) and I always thought my score was bad, but it was higher than Roosh and his commenteriat. So I guess I’m pretty flippin awesome. Or they’re pretty stupid.

    GPA’s at my school district, I found out, only factor in 24 classes. I took significantly more than 24 classes, for various reasons. So while I kept getting 6’s for every AP/IB/dual enrollment college course I took, it would still be divided by 24, not the actual, higher number I took. So I had over a 7.0 GPA.

    People call this cheating. I call it winning.

    @Byron:

    I agree with you, but I feel like on some level, you’re exaggerating the shaming that society has towards men. I feel like a lot of men in the sphere for some reason feel victimized and are seeing enemies everywhere. I didn’t realize why that was until I talked to one who was raised by a bitchy single mother who was emotionally abusive. Similarly to how it sounds like a lot of feminists were once sexual abuse victims and have PTSD as a result, I feel like a lot of men in the sphere are products of bitchy single mothers, bad girlfriends/wives, emotionally abusive women, etc.

    I think certain men have lower self esteem and are more sensitive to critique. Some men in the sphere might fit this description. Stop giving a fuck what feminists say, they’re not important. The most gender realistic men I know acknowledge that men do wrong and women do wrong. They admit than men are capable of rape, murder, and violence. And they admit that women can be huge sluts, that women can be emotionally abusive. And at the end of the day, though, they know that most people aren’t like that. So we move on.

    I mentioned the lazy boys in school thing to my mother and father, and they both agreed with it, in fact, my father said he was one of them. This was in the 50’s, when there was no “gender equality.” I come from a family with a lot of dudes, and they don’t see what’s mentioned here. My father’s biggest complaint is the outsourcing of manual labor to China, because he feels like some peopel were meant to work with their hands. These people are mostly men, yes?

    Celebrating successful men is kind of redundant. There are plenty of successful men. The reason successful women are celebrated is because they are so RARE. Celebrating successful men is like women celebrating that they got laid or had a baby. It’s like…ok…and? It isn’t that their accomplishments aren’t fantastic. I do find the whole celebration of successful X a bit ridiculous, though. I’d like to see a day where we just see human discoveries without discussing the race or gender of the person involved.

    And Byron, you think woman would pass on the right of giving birth to men if they could? I would seriously trade with my husband if I could. Except I don’t think I’d want a penis. Plus shaving your face every day and stuff. Taht’s annoying.

  • Jess

    Yohami and Byron,
    Sorry- really didnt mean to send people on a wild goose chase.
    Item 5 should have read “current” feminist thinking. contemporary quotes.
    .
    We have all heard the extremist steinem stuff before.
    Im Suprised nobody mentionned dworkin.
    if there are any similar quotes that dont date back 30 years or more then I’d like to hear them. Last 5 years maybe?
    .
    Let me state once again though, I’m feminist- lite.
    A lot of 80s and 90s feminism is too hard core for me.
    And just like any movement we had a few nuts on the way.
    .
    But I will say I agree with some of the stuff you guys dug up. It is mind bendingly boring, washing sheets, feeding kids, and doing the dishes every day. Drives some nuts. But I would not agree in any way with the parasite stuff. How insulting and Extremist.
    .
    Which is why I like choice and variety.
    .
    Anyway, what about the other points? You still not gonna explain to the dumb broad what imnoby meant?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Byron, you think woman would pass on the right of giving birth to men if they could?

    Not any woman I know. It’s something girls sometimes say, but then the body clock kicks in & they start openly weeping & grabbing at passing pushchairs. Women are seriously into their breeding. Practically no man I know ever expresses a desire to have children, whereas almost every woman i’ve ever spoken to about it says they do, just not yet.

    I would seriously trade with my husband if I could. Except I don’t think I’d want a penis.

    Aw, cocks are great. You don’t know what you’re missing. Worth the beard.

  • imnobody

    Fact. For most guys, intelligence is just not that important a trait in long-term romantic/sexual partner. That doesn’t mean most guys want to be with someone bordering on mental retardation, but it does mean once you’ve reached say 120, 130, 140, 150 IQ it adds nothing to your desirability.

    Completely agree. But this is not my case, maybe because I’m weird. I prefer a 6 in physical appearance who can talk and have an interesting conversation than a 9 who is not a retard but it is boring. After all, sex is only a while. Conversation is more important.

    My problem is that I don’t find 6’s with interesting conversation, I find 2’s with an somewhat interesting conversation. I am completely unable to get attached to 2’s, no matter how great conversation have. Too bad, because it would be great. But I’m wired that way.

    For most guys, the single most important factor is physical appearance. Full stop. Now the problem with intelligence in women is my experience is there is a fairly robust inverse correlation between the intelligence of a girl and how much effort she puts into the way she looks.

    My experience (and I don’t mean that this is general: it’s only my experience) is that once a woman has a physical appearance of 6 and more, the guys start flowing to her and she couldn’t care less about cultivating her mind.

    If you are somewhat physically attractive, pleasant and fun, AND INTELLIGENT you’ll have to be beating guys off with sticks because you will be a rarity.

    Very rare. I would marry such a girl in a heartbeat. But I think I would have to settle for less.

  • imnobody

    @BSD

    It is possible that with Ashkenazi Jews, there’s a certain amount of…natural selection. Only the smartest and most capable and most healthy would survive all the trials they survived, including the Holocaust.

    The book “1000 year explosion” explains that Ashkenazi Jews were bankers and managers for about one millennium (from 800 to 1800) so only the highest intelligent Jews survived to pass their genes. This is why the average IQ of Jews is higher than white people. This is why lots of genius have been Jews or of Jewish descent (for example, Marx, Freud, Einstein).

  • jamie

    The magazines you listed (GQ, Maxim, Men’s fitness etc) are a relatively recent phenomena of publishers trying to apply the same success formula (selling consumer products, making women focus obsessively upon their appearance & their bodies rather than the greater world) that worked so well with women to men, with a certain amount of success among a certain demographic. That doesn’t change the ratio of readership of ‘serious’ works.

    PLEASE. Esquire has been around since the 1930’s and has also had some brilliant contributions from writers like Fitzgerald and Hemmingway, Tom Wolfe and David Sedaris. But really, the magazine’s main focus is on looking good and looking at beautiful women.

    I’m with Bright Stormy on this. There are Men’s Magazines. There are Women’s magazines. And then there are subject-specific magazines.

  • Mike C

    However, that doesn’t mean I’m oblivious to what people are saying around me or that I don’t register the inconsistency of their words. Yes, yes, one man’s ballbuster is another man’s sweet dominatrix but going beyond that, why the general disparity?

    Generally speaking, and I think this goes for many subjects, you have to distinguish between what people REALLY BELIEVE versus sometimes what they are saying out of social expectation, political correctness, not wanting to make waves. I’ve been in conversations on politics and economics, where I just smile and nod my head because I realize the people involved in the conversation are blithering idiots, and it does me no strategic or tactical good to try and articulate my opinion in both an in-depth and assertive manner.

    - “Treat women like naughty children. Be kind and courteous to them but don’t bother discussing politics, technology or science with them.”

    The David DeAngelo advice is actually treat them like your “bratty little sister”. Kindness and courtesy should be reserved. Those are asexual traits. Note, that does NOT mean I think you should treat a woman with meanness and rudeness. Not doing one doesn’t mean doing the polar opposite. Look at the recent brouhaha with the successful hedge fund manager who is a Magic champion and the ugly chick who dissed him online. Tactically, if you are trying to get laid, it makes no sense to discuss “serious, boring” stuff like politics, technology, science with a woman until she clearly reveals to you her interest in those areas. Otherwise, you are the boring guy and you disqualify yourself right away. The simple truth is the percentage of women actually interested in high-brow intellectual discussions is a very small minority so you have to craft your strategy for the majority.

    And being a man yourself, what’s the general consensus?

    Not sure I can speak for all men, but to reiterate what I said earlier, intelligence just isn’t that important to me beyond a certain base level. I couldn’t be with someone with an IQ of 90, but the difference between 110 and 150 is irrelevant. And frankly, the super high intelligence can be a detriment because it does seem like many women get really boastful about it and that is just annoying from someone who is going to be a romantic/sexual partner.

    On a more general level, I think one thing you realize as you get older, is you are NOT going to find one person who fulfills ALL your needs. If you have to have a certain amount of intellectual stimulation/conversation you can get that somewhere else.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I’m with Bright Stormy on this. There are Men’s Magazines. There are Women’s magazines. And then there are subject-specific magazines.

    Yes, & the subject-specific magazines which refer to the greater world – engineering, mathematics, science, finance, military history, etc – are read predominantly by men.

    The subject-specific magazines which refer to cookery, knitting & needlecraft are read (predominantly) by women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, & the subject-specific magazines which refer to the greater world – engineering, mathematics, science, finance, military history, etc – are read predominantly by men.

      The subject-specific magazines which refer to cookery, knitting & needlecraft are read (predominantly) by women.

      What’s missing from this conversation is the obvious fact that magazine readership reflects what people are interested in. Not what they’re capable of, though certainly people tend to get good at things they’re interested in. This is why Larry Summers should not have been crucified for asking a very reasonable question. The truth is, a minority of women are interested in STEM, finance or the military. (Note that I didn’t warn women in my Cheap Dates post not to drag guys to a musket exhibit). A minority of women are avid NBA fans as well. These are niche markets for women. Conversely, men are not particularly interested in crafts. One look at the top creative crafts blogs proves it – it’s a female ghetto. Some things interest both sexes, like cooking, and my guess is that the readership is more evenly split.

      There are great innate differences between the sexes, and those differences are evident by about the age of one. I know for a fact that it isn’t all nurture – gender is not a social construct.

  • imnobody

    I’m with Bright Stormy on this. There are Men’s Magazines. There are Women’s magazines. And then there are subject-specific magazines.

    Yes, subject-specific magazines,

    – if they are about politics, economics or science, the vast majority of their audience are males.

    – if they are about celebrities, wedding or feminism, the vast majority of their audience are females.

    You can’t distort the truth with careful chosen words.

  • imnobody

    Sorry to say the same than Byron. We wrote our posts at the same time so mine is a dupe.

  • imnobody

    On a more general level, I think one thing you realize as you get older, is you are NOT going to find one person who fulfills ALL your needs.

    This should be written in letters of gold.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    imnobody,

    Sir, you are a thief & a liar.

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    “And frankly, the super high intelligence can be a detriment because it does seem like many women get really boastful about it and that is just annoying from someone who is going to be a romantic/sexual partner.”
    LOLOL and Mike C takes a stab at stormy.

    It’s weird though, the last person I dated knew a lot about the social sciences, so he taught me about that, and I taught him about the hard sciences. Then again, we didn’t have sex, but that was for different reasons, like being oldfashioned. I think the best thing for people to do is to find someone from a field other than your own. I’ve said it a hundred times but it works wonders. Then you can teach each other things, and you don’t feel the need to compete. :D That’s what smart women should do. They should find someone from a different field. Then learn from one another. it’s fun and exciting!

    “Tactically, if you are trying to get laid, it makes no sense to discuss “serious, boring” stuff like politics, technology, science with a woman until she clearly reveals to you her interest in those areas. Otherwise, you are the boring guy and you disqualify yourself right away.”

    Really? Then what would you talk about? Your penis? :/ What is there to talk about really? The weather? I mean, I guess the weather is okay if something interesting is happening…

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Rather cool we had pretty much exactly the same thought though. I guess the answer was just was that obvious.

  • imnobody

    Yes, Byron. I think the answer was so obvious. But, as we say in my country, the worse blind is the one who doesn’t want to see. Expect any amount of rationalizations to hide the obvious.
    .
    Go, hamster, go!

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    Also, there’s a huge difference between an IQ of 110 and 150. A HUGE difference.

    There’s a 30 point difference between the average IQ and the average of someone who’s mentally retarded. So an average IQ is 100, a retarded IQ is 70. A gifted IQ is 130. A normal person to a gifted person is extremely stupid. 145 is considered by some as highly gifted or near genius.

    Start putting the pieces together. There’s a huge difference between an IQ of 110 and of 150. You realistically might not get along with a woman with an IQ of 150 because, while you are gifted, no doubt, you might not handle the fact that she would constantly remind you that she’s smarter than you (without saying it that way, but through her knowledge and critical thinking skills). She would make a lot of family decisions, and if you want a traditional family structure, it would be a bit more difficult, not that she wouldn’t make a good wife or mother. The 120-140 range might work out for you. Maybe on the lower end because maybe then she’ll have higher emotional intelligence.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I prefer a 6 in physical appearance who can talk and have an interesting conversation than a 9 who is not a retard but it is boring.

    I just cannot stand the company of a dull & stupid girl, no matter how pretty. There’s just nothing there. However, once you get past a certain very high level of smarts you start getting into that extreme-male-brain-autism side of the spectrum, which, i guess because of its masculinity, is deeply unattractive to most men. The women I know who work in research laboratories & write for science journals tend to be from that part of the piechart.

  • BSD

    In regards to the magazines…

    we’re going to see it the way we see it. They are subject specific. I say this because they do not have an obvious audience. GENDER isn’t an important factor of the audience. The important aim is what they are interested in. So there will be knitting enthusiasts, dieters, and economy enthusiasts. Some might be male, some might be female. Some might have slightly skewed audiences. That’s fine. But that doesn’t mean it’s directed at any specific GENDER, only interest. Before you were the one responsible for the false advertising, not the women. You said women’s magazines were about celebrities and gossip, and male magazines were about economics, politics, and science. FALSE. Men’s magazines are about working out, hot women, cars, looking good, etc. They aren’t about those things anymore. Whether interest magazines have a larger male/female demographic is irrelevant in this discussion because they are not aimed at specific genders. They are aimed towards those who share that interest.

    The more I read what men have to say about women in the sphere, though, the more I feel like a special snowflake every day. I guess women like me don’t exist. I’m going to go find an alpha to date now. jk.

    (Fun fact, the percent distribution of male/female national geographic explorers is nearly 50/50; and national geographic might fit your descriptions as a “men’s magazine”).

    @Byron, regarding child rearing:

    I do want to raise my own children, I just don’t want to give birth to them. I think this is common. Pregnant women scare the crap out of me.

    Also penises are weird looking. Though I’m sure being able to pee wherever you want must be a lot of fun. Plus masturbation. But then people could kick you in the privates. That must hurt. hmm.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I totally dig smart chicks. Give me a gal with a 150 IQ.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    BSD,

    The pee thing is very convenient. That alone makes me happy I’m male. Mastubation’s fun, but you’ve got some rubbable parts, too, no?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Getting kicked in the jimmy is no fun at all. But generally you only have to worry about that with crazy girls. With guys, they’d sooner crack you over the head with a tire iron than get you in the groin. I think it’s part of the man code.

  • Mike C

    LOLOL and Mike C takes a stab at stormy.

    Interesting. Totally honest, it was not intended as a stab at you AT ALL. But the fact that you interpreted it that way is telling, huh?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    I met a chick with IQ 163 when I was a teenager. She was pretty and sweet. I saw her again a few years ago, se became a “normal” woman worried about her beauty and all the little nuances of life that I dont care about

    My first serious relationship was with a girl that I think was 200 or higher. But man did that hamster spin. She had zero emotional intelligence and was crazy. Maybe the IQ was a product of something else being broken.

    I cant stand dumb girls for more than a few hours. Im my experience though, if they are intelligent AND attractive they are troubled. Also the more balanced ones are lesbians. There´s got to be a link there.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Re: rubbable parts: Several girls I’ve known have agreed it would be nice to swop just one day a year.

  • jamie

    Re: Gender Disparity in Magazines

    To be honest, I tend to read whatever magazine is sitting in front of me in the doctor’s office because I can’t justify buying something that I will finish reading in an afternoon. I like Real Simple, Esquire and almost any travel magazine. I think you guys are making up figures on the readership of magazines that “refer to the greater world”. My interest in cooking magazines is largely professional, as I was a chef for many years and it’s important to keep up on restaurant reviews and what the hot trends are in New York and San Francisco. I can assure you that they have a large male readership. The restaurant industry is VERY much a boy’s club.

    That being said, there are probably more females reading The Economist than you think. Susan reads it. True, it’s just not something that most women would read for entertainment.

    This gender war discussion is like a snake eating it’s own tail. Don’t you guys have anything better to do on a Saturday? It’s gorgeous out. I’ll see you all on Monday.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jamie
      I’m fascinated that you were a chef. And I adore Real Simple. I love all that lifehacker stuff. I also get Bon Appetit (since Gourmet went down :( I save my trashy, prurient reading about celebs for medical appointments.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    LOLOL and Mike C takes a stab at stormy.

    Interesting. Totally honest, it was not intended as a stab at you AT ALL. But the fact that you interpreted it that way is telling, huh?

    Yeah, I thought that was a bit oversensitive too.

  • BSD

    @Byron:

    “However, once you get past a certain very high level of smarts you start getting into that extreme-male-brain-autism side of the spectrum, which, i guess because of its masculinity, is deeply unattractive to most men. The women I know who work in research laboratories & write for science journals tend to be from that part of the piechart.”

    I agree with this somewhat (the smarter you are, the harder it is to make friends, especially as a child, because everyone is so dumb, and people at your level of intelligence are so much older that they treat you like a small child that doesn’t know better, even when you’re right) but you may be exaggerating it a bit. The women in the labs might be very good at science/math, and may have autism. But that doesn’t mean their IQ’s are necessarily that much higher than an already high IQ person (though they might be); they just think differently than average. It is possible to have both a high IQ and a high EQ. You are speaking of people who have higher IQ’s, but are just very good at science and math and are lacking in the EQ department. Different forms/levels of intelligence exist. This isn’t necessarily higher. I have a friend who’s a math genius but practically scored a 0 on an EQ test and can’t read. Is he smarter than, say…Bradbury? That can’t really be answered.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Mine’s at 165, but I’m not sure how much stock I put in IQ. I mean obviously it measures some forms of intelligence, but I’m not sure it gives us even close to the whole story.

    That said, I generally never tell real people my IQ, and generally never ask about theirs. If someone you’re just meeting tells you their IQ, it usually means they’re insecure, and out to prove they’re smarter than you.

    More important to me than IQ is people’s attitudes about the world. If they’re curious about things, if they find things fascinating and worth talking about, and if they’re willing to experience new things, that’s enough for me.

  • Mike C

    @Mike C:
    Also, there’s a huge difference between an IQ of 110 and 150. A HUGE difference.
    There’s a 30 point difference between the average IQ and the average of someone who’s mentally retarded. So an average IQ is 100, a retarded IQ is 70. A gifted IQ is 130. A normal person to a gifted person is extremely stupid. 145 is considered by some as highly gifted or near genius.
    Start putting the pieces together. There’s a huge difference between an IQ of 110 and of 150. You realistically might not get along with a woman with an IQ of 150 because, while you are gifted, no doubt, you might not handle the fact that she would constantly remind you that she’s smarter than you (without saying it that way, but through her knowledge and critical thinking skills). She would make a lot of family decisions, and if you want a traditional family structure, it would be a bit more difficult, not that she wouldn’t make a good wife or mother. The 120-140 range might work out for you. Maybe on the lower end because maybe then she’ll have higher emotional intelligence.

    .
    Fascinating response here for the glimpse into the psychology it reveals…
    .
    That said, your analogy is a poor one. It isn’t the same difference in a practical way between 70 and 110 and 110 and 150. A good parallel would be strength training and the difference between a guy who benches 300 and squats 300 versus a 7 year old girl’s strength and a world-class strongman who benches 700 and squats 1000 pounds. The pure arithmetic differences obscure the practical, functional difference in life.

    This probably going to sound condescending, but you overestimate the value of super high intelligence. Beyond a certain point, it simply isn’t that beneficial. Warren Buffett said in regards to successful investing, once you get beyond an IQ of 120, it doesn’t matter anymore. Other traits become more important. When I was kid, I was into Dungeons and Dragons, and there were two separate categories for intelligence and wisdom. As one goes along through the trajectory of life, you realize that wisdom and maturity are actually sometimes more important than raw intellectual horsepower. There is at least of kernel of truth in the meme that sometimes very smart people lack “common sense”. And to be clear none of these comments are directed specifically at you. For all I know, you may have alot of wisdom and maturity as well from life experience. I’m just making a general observation about high IQ and super high IQ people.

    As far as a relationship goes, I actually think I wouldn’t mind being with someone of 140 or 150 or 160 which is higher than me. But the important qualifier to that is a relationship should NOT be a competition, and if you want to get competitive about it, then yeah, I would kick that persons ass to the curb, especially if they want to pull that out as the trump card in decision making because as I said above in terms of functional life decision making once you get past a certain point it really doesn’t matter to the quality of the decision. To cherry-pick just one point, future time orientation matters 1000x more then the difference between 130 and 150 IQ.

  • Isabel

    @ Mike

    With regard to DeAngelo, I didn’t even know there was an official endorsement for guys to behave like that but there you go. Do you see what I mean now? In any case, if some guy tried to pull the brat trick on me, I’d promptly play the you-are-now-invisible card in return and take my bratty self to less patronising pastures. If your only way of proving value is by attempting to lower mine then you can jog on tbh.

    And I still think guys exaggerate this rare “minority” of women who enjoy something other than socialising to save face.To date, I still haven’t met any of the spectacularly stupid bints that seem to be devastating the male population, and I spend 80% of my time in female company engaging in female pursuits or whatever you would call it now. Not once. A ditz here and there, yep, but I find that most people — male and female — always have a little thing that they are interested in but suppress it out of fear of being marginalised. Has it ever occurred to you that girls who have a strong opinion on something are brushed aside as ‘opinionated’ or ‘argumentative’, just as the guy is flung aside as a ‘boorish nerd’? There is a reason why some girls actively conceal their beliefs, start batting their eyelashes and talking like a baby near men, no?

    Not sure I can speak for all men, but to reiterate what I said earlier, intelligence just isn’t that important to me beyond a certain base level. I couldn’t be with someone with an IQ of 90, but the difference between 110 and 150 is irrelevant. And frankly, the super high intelligence can be a detriment because it does seem like many women get really boastful about it and that is just annoying from someone who is going to be a romantic/sexual partner.

    But how do you know that it *is* actually being boastful instead of it being perceived as boasting? Therein lies the issue. With some dudes, you can’t even talk about concepts without them perceiving as you being an insufferable know it all. Especially if it is contrary to their take on things which is annoying because naturally you want to discuss the thing that inspires the most but THAT comes at a cost. Myself, I’m a language enthusiast and have self-taught myself four languages to fluency. That’s the only thing I’ll ever be good at and probably the only thing I feel have authority to talk about without meriting a flurry of bitchslaps too. Now if I were to discuss it with a guy I fancied, I’d instantly be shot down as a know it all because I can talk forever and ever about it. I can’t help it. Once the floodgates are open, it’s over for the night.

    So do I risk looking a dumb rock or like an annoying tosser? ‘Cause I know bugger all about what men are interested in, i.e sports, techy things, politics etc and the one thing I do like will make them want to punch me repeatedly in the ovaries.

    You’re completely right on the perfection in a partner thing though.

  • Mike C

    Really? Then what would you talk about? Your penis? :/ What is there to talk about really? The weather? I mean, I guess the weather is okay if something interesting is happening…

    And to answer this, there is alot of stuff in between the weather and the latest in particle physics theory. Anything of situational relevance or past experience. Obviously, the conversation will be different between an ongoing relationship versus someone you are talking to in the beginning stages.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    the smarter you are, the harder it is to make friends, especially as a child, because everyone is so dumb

    Ain’t it the truth. There was a girl i used to know at school, very intelligent, shy, always studying, had a hell of a time of it with all the girls in the makeup & hairspray, just bullied all the time. I remember having to stand up for her a bunch of times. But she was very plain looking. I guess it’s like someone said earlier, past a certain point you are going to get into that Einstein-type area about personal appearance where you have 5 sets of the same suit made so you don’t have to think about such dumb trivial stuff anymore.

    I really don’t know all that much about IQ tests, I know they only measure a certain type of intelligence, but what i was referring to is that particularly cold, detatched emotionless kind of intelligence which is very male & not very likeable generally, but especially to men, who tend to prize warmth & emotional intelligence over IQ in women.

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    I didn’t really get offended, but you’re right in that I do feel like I talked about myself way too much here. Plus I poked fun at you over saying you passed the mensa test. I like you a lot do you want to be my friend.

    @yohami:
    An IQ of over 200? You do realize that almost no one in the world has an IQ that high, and most tests just by default wouldn’t even give that person a number, just call it immeasurable. That’s such a huge deal! What did/does she do for a living? What was a conversation with her like? This is serious, dude. I’m living vicariously through you now.

    @jamie:

    You were a chef? wow that’s so awesome. I’m going to you for cooking advices.

    @jesusmahoney:

    Yes, I have rub-able parts, like all girls, but k;slfjlkdfj it’s frustrating. Because sometimes things are oversensitive. And that’s highly inconvenient. Plus female masturbation is awkward so there’s nothing to do….

    >.> tmi.

    If no other girls have this issue I’m getting my hormone levels checked.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, I have rub-able parts, like all girls, but k;slfjlkdfj it’s frustrating. Because sometimes things are oversensitive.

      That’s why heaven is a soft, wet tongue :)

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    if some guy tried to pull the brat trick on me, I’d promptly play the you-are-now-invisible card in return and take my bratty self to less patronising pastures.

    Isabel doesn’t get it.

    Yes, I have rub-able parts, like all girls, but k;slfjlkdfj it’s frustrating. Because sometimes things are oversensitive. And that’s highly inconvenient. Plus female masturbation is awkward so there’s nothing to do….
    If no other girls have this issue I’m getting my hormone levels checked.

    Yep, you need to get that looked at.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Told you cocks were great.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    An IQ of over 200? You do realize that almost no one in the world has an IQ that high, and most tests just by default wouldn’t even give that person a number, just call it immeasurable. That’s such a huge deal! What did/does she do for a living? What was a conversation with her like? This is serious, dude. I’m living vicariously through you now.

    She was studying law, and of course she only studied two days before each exam and always got 10. Then she dropped it because law made her unhappy and switched to philosophy and got 10s again. We would talk about philosophy mostly. I met her on some philosophy forum and she was the only person who could understand what I was talking about at first glance and say anything smart about it. She was a brute raw powerhouse. So we fell in love and I moved to Argentina for her, then worked my ass for 5 years to make that relationship work. Among many other things we build a company, or, I built a company so she would have a job where she could capitalize on her smarts. She turned into writing and art. Then art direction. Then design. Her emotional side, however, was a completely nightmare. From narcissism to drama queen to violent outburst to everything troubled thing I can think off. And was triggering my white knight and beta wiring to the extreme. Extremely taxing.

    She´s off to europe now, teaching design at some institute.

    Anyway, like “normal” woman, her focus of worries is always in the emotional / relationship / mundane spectrum. I dont think she will produce anything with her potential, but heck if I tried and put all of my money on that she could.

    She´s the only person that has outsmarted me in my whole life, and other than her, Im the smartest person I know. My IQ is 180 or so. And like her, my emotional reality was a pure mess before I found out how to fix myself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Very impressed with the high IQ of readers here, but totally surprised. I get a ton of intellectual stimulation here.

  • Isabel

    @ Byron

    Well, then explain. I still maintain that David guy should be in a corrective asylum and force fed washing-up liquid for coming up with such a lame ploy though.

  • Mike C

    With regard to DeAngelo, I didn’t even know there was an official endorsement for guys to behave like that but there you go. Do you see what I mean now? In any case, if some guy tried to pull the brat trick on me, I’d promptly play the you-are-now-invisible card in return and take my bratty self to less patronising pastures. If your only way of proving value is by attempting to lower mine then you can jog on tbh.

    Well…you say that so I have to take you at your word that you mean what you say. I’m talking generalities here though. If you are a politician, you play to get the middle majority of the vote, not the extreme minorities that don’t have enough votes to get you elected. I’ve got enough field experience to know what works and doesn’t work generally speaking, although I’d love to get Yohami and whiteboykrispy to chime in as well. I think you are miscontruing what it means to treat a woman like a “bratty little sister”. It simply means playful teasing (not mean) without a single ounce of supplication, deference, etc.

    Has it ever occurred to you that girls who have a strong opinion on something are brushed aside as ‘opinionated’ or ‘argumentative’,

    Its all in the presentation though. It is possible to have a strong opinion but present it properly. We have one commenter here who no doubt is opinionated, and frankly I think she is a complete bitch. My guess is if you polled the guys here you’d get 99% she is a bitch. Why do you think that is? Now take Susan and Steph. They have strong opinions, but they present well. I’ll tell ya. I’d love to sit down at a dinner or whatever and talk politics, economics, business with Susan and I doubt we’d agree 100% on everything but I would respect her views. The other person I am referring to, it would be insufferable to have a 1 hour conversation with her.

    But how do you know that it *is* actually being boastful instead of it being perceived as boasting? Therein lies the issue. With some dudes, you can’t even talk about concepts without them perceiving as you being an insufferable know it all.

    What does it matter? Perception is reality. If I perceive a person a certain way in a negative way, why would I want to continue to spend any time with them at all? I’m confused what it is you are trying to elicit from me. Do you want to hear how a guy thinks? Or are you trying to persuade me how I should think?

    Really, when it is all said and done, I would tell any woman who is resistant to self-analysis and change the same worthless advice told to guys “Be yourself, and it will all work out great for you”. That is great advice for someone who doesn’t want to change anything about themselves yet stay deluded that they’ll get what they want in the end.

    So do I risk looking a dumb rock or like an annoying tosser?

    This reminds me of Ted’s comments the other day. Life/relationships/interaction are not binary. In most cases, there is a massive middle ground, but for some reason people want to gravitate to the extremes.

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    Ohhh you meant that it doesn’t matter in the long term scheme of picking a suitable partner. I’m winning today. I need to stop skimming things. >.>’

    Yeah, you’re right, you could do just as well with an 120 chick or a 150 chick, it’d be the same. Her personality, beauty, motherliness, etc. would be other important factors. Makes lots of sense.

    @Byron:

    It’s even harder if you’re the nerd girl, AND boys like you. My hs had a super skewed male:female ratio where there weren’t a lot of guys. For some reason people decided I was attractive idk why. So I got a lot of crap. It’s sometimes okay for a girl to be smart, it’s sometimes okay for her to be seen as attractive, but it is definitely NOT OKAY for her to be both. It’s pretty bad because I had no idea what was going on most of the time. I was too busy being a nerd. Talk about oblivious.

    I like that you stood up for her though. When you go to know her, did you see that she warmed up? The thing is, a lot of nerds tend to be avoidant, or have features of APD. It’s a result of social anxiety. When you break that shell away and they realize that you’re not screwing with them they can be really nice. Like cats!

    There was this girl on America’s Next top model that one of my friends wouldn’t stop talking about. I actually watched a whole season on youtube because they told me to. She pretty much fit that same underdog nerd girl personality, but she was really nice. She’s sort of detached like you describe. It’s kind of random, but I’m posting a video where they basically cut out every section she talked so you can see it. She’s awesome. I thought this show was full of airheads.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JZxaOcOdNE

    @JesusMahoney:

    I knew you were brilliant! :) I’m so happy we’re bff’s.

    But you’re right about not telling people your IQ. It’s just better not to talk about it. On some level, I must sound really arrogant on here, because I feel that’s how I come across, but whenever someone says something nice to me IRL, like about knowing things or being smart, I feel kind of sparkly. It’s a part of how I’ve formed my identity, so I shouldn’t respond that way, but…I don’t know. I just feel all sparkly and awkward when I get compliments. And sometimes like I don’t really deserve them, but if you say,”Oh no, no way,” people keep insisting and it gets awkward, so you have to just take it.

  • jamie

    @BSD
    Yes. I gave that job some good years and the tip of my finger. It’s a lot of fun but the pay is shit. I miss the power tools you get to play with in an industrial kitchen though.

    The problem with DIY sex is that girl parts are hard to reach. Also, bringing a woman to orgasm requires a certain amount of focus, so if you’re the only woman involved you’re likely to lose your focus. IDK if that’s what you’re referring to. That might just be more TMI.

    Also, it is possible for a woman to pee standing up. My friend and I experimented with it on a cross-country road/camping trip. Wearing a skirt is KEY though. Penises seem like a big liability. I don’t think I’d like having one.

  • Mike C

    Hahaha, I’m the slow kid in the class with all you 150+ people commenting :)

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    I think Isabel is talking about how some idiots will, regardless, think you’re bragging all the time. When people ask me where I go to school, I avoid saying it, I just say the area/location. If they press more, I’ll say it. But you’ll be surprised how some people (this isn’t common) will say something like,”Stop bragging,” after they ask you what you got on an exam. Well, jerk, why did you ask? It’s better not to reveal to people how much/little you study or what results they give you. I’m a huge fan of getting 100% on exams after not going to class ever and only studying two days before it, but if I were to tell my peers that I’d get hanged. So I just don’t tell people and I avoid them around exam time.

    @yohami:

    Wow you must have really loved her. Did she inspire you to learn game?

  • BSD
  • Mike C

    I still maintain that David guy should be in a corrective asylum and force fed washing-up liquid for coming up with such a lame ploy though.

    I don’t want to turn this thread into a debate on Game, but I will note it isn’t about a “lame ploy”. It is about a total attitude you bring to your interactions with women.

    One thing I believe 110% is that when we talk about stuff like this “bratty little sister”, there is a level of nuance and subtlety that most women hearing this don’t get. It doesn’t mean you grab her head and give her a nuggie.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I think you are miscontruing what it means to treat a woman like a “bratty little sister”. It simply means playful teasing (not mean) without a single ounce of supplication, deference, etc.

    What Mike said.

    You’d get a better answer from some of the guys here who actually practise Game, but essentially it’s a useful default setting for men, to be playfully pushing the girl away rather than chasing after her, staring unblinkingly at her across the room & grabbing at her ankles when she tries to leave. If done right it tends to work well on most girls.

  • BSD

    @jamie:

    The problem with DIY sex is that girl parts are hard to reach. Also, bringing a woman to orgasm requires a certain amount of focus, so if you’re the only woman involved you’re likely to lose your focus. IDK if that’s what you’re referring to. That might just be more TMI.

    No I was talking about what happens when you wear tight jeans or ride in a bumpy vehicle or wear tight jeans AND ride in a bumpy vehicle. ;-;

    This is so awkward now. I think I’m going to die.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No I was talking about what happens when you wear tight jeans or ride in a bumpy vehicle or wear tight jeans AND ride in a bumpy vehicle. ;-;

      Don’t allow a camel toe! That really, really hurts. Your jeans do not have to be that tight.

  • Isabel

    @ Mike C

    I’m also the one of slow people here. Iirc, mine is 120. SUCK IT NERDS. I GOT PAST SECURITY.

    Well…you say that so I have to take you at your word that you mean what you say. I’m talking generalities here though. If you are a politician, you play to get the middle majority of the vote, not the extreme minorities that don’t have enough votes to get you elected. I’ve got enough field experience to know what works and doesn’t work generally speaking, although I’d love to get Yohami and whiteboykrispy to chime in as well. I think you are miscontruing what it means to treat a woman like a “bratty little sister”. It simply means playful teasing (not mean) without a single ounce of supplication, deference, etc.

    So, you just meant light-hearted teasing and playful banter? Oh, right. I take it all back then. I thought it was tickle torture and confiscating Nutella sandwiches, the sadistic stuff I do to my little sisters. As long as it is all cordial and not full-on derision then everything is cool.

    Do you want to hear how a guy thinks? Or are you trying to persuade me how I should think?

    Just a male opinion, please.

  • BSD

    man I thought I was being teased all the time because I am so adorable like a little kid. This is crap I is not a snowflake. :[

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    Wow you must have really loved her. Did she inspire you to learn game?

    Eh, *love*. Yeah. But more like she was my mythic *soulmate* and making that work was the only thing that made sense.

    Game came after her, I started dating other girls. I found deAngelo on OKCupid. Then met another smart girl online which happened to be a trasgendered guy, and it clicked it. My body and emotional set was enterily different whenever I was interacting with a girl or a dude. I was ready to kick a motivate a loser if he was a guy, but I was ready to save and protect a loser if she was a woman. Thats when I fully realized I expected different stuff from men and women, that my responses were biased, and that I was willing to take more crap from women than men. Then I started researching it. Then I put it to practice.

  • jamie

    No I was talking about what happens when you wear tight jeans or ride in a bumpy vehicle or wear tight jeans AND ride in a bumpy vehicle. ;-;

    This is so awkward now. I think I’m going to die.

    LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

    Dude, that’s incredibly normal. Try wearing your tight jeans on a washing machine with an unbalanced load.

    Or if you’re trying to get things done, wear looser jeans.

  • Mike C

    I think Isabel is talking about how some idiots will, regardless, think you’re bragging all the time. When people ask me where I go to school, I avoid saying it, I just say the area/location. If they press more, I’ll say it. But you’ll be surprised how some people (this isn’t common) will say something like,”Stop bragging,” after they ask you what you got on an exam. Well, jerk, why did you ask?
    .
    Well…clearly in this case you are dealing with someone who is insecure and has an inferiority complex. The opposite case is where a person goes on and on and on an on, and then you would be like “OK, I get it, you are really smart”. It would be like me a guy going on and on about all the hot chicks I’ve dated. At some point, you cross the line of DHV, and it actually has the opposite effect.

  • BSD

    @yohami:

    Interesting. Introspection is important. I think what makes you so successful though is that you didn’t just learn game but you changed your life and your attitudes, and you seem pretty successful. Does DeAngelo teach that?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I like that you stood up for her though. When you go to know her, did you see that she warmed up?

    No, she had terrible social skills. Friendly, but a mess.

  • Mike C

    Does DeAngelo teach that?

    Yes, he is more about inner game then memorizing contrived routines.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I think what makes you so successful though is that you didn’t just learn game but you changed your life and your attitudes, and you seem pretty successful. Does DeAngelo teach that?

    No. Yohami’s where it’s at. Yohami’s the future.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    Yeah, I say that everwhere. Game is not a “game” and the approach is flawled. Game lists a bunch of attractive attributes, attitudes and skills, so, figure out how to adquire them for real, rather than memorizing them and trying to emulate them.

    Does DeAngelo teach that?

    No, so far I think nobody teaches that. DeAngelo is a moron, but he came up with this “Cocky and Funny” thing, that is totally backwards from the normal beta wiring, so its useful and simple to put in practice because people has to start somewhere.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    *people have to start somewhere.

    I really have to check my stuff before posting now that the edit button is defunct!

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mike,

    Yes, he is more about inner game then memorizing contrived routines.

    Eh. DeAngelo is not a PUA guru but he does have routines. He teaches some attitudes to put in your personality and a few basic lines and moves. “Push your number here” and stuff.

    His interview series are great.

    But inner game? nope. I think RSD are the ones who came up with that stuff?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Does DeAngelo teach that?

    Yes, he is more about inner game then memorizing contrived routines.

    Kind of, but he’s a bit of a dick. The bits i’ve read he’s not talking about transforming yourself so that the outside & the inside are in harmony, the ‘cocky-funny’ stuff is still kind of a trick, a gimmick. But it’s awhile since I looked, may be remembering this with more bias than is needed.

  • BSD

    Will inner game teach me how to do this?

    http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=499#comic

  • Mike C

    Yohami,

    As I recall, he does have an Inner Game product as well. You and I have had this debate before. I think “fake it until you make it” is the only way to go. If a guy is a supplicating beta, he can’t just go to bed one night, snap his fingers, and wake up the next day a “real man” with authentic masculinity. You become what you do. You have to crawl before you walk, walk before you jog, jog before you sprint. So I think it is necessary to start with doing some of the contrived stuff and then over time it should become more a “way of being” versus “stuff you do”. But you have to start with “stuff you do”. You can’t get from A to B without the intermediate stuff.

    In any case, and this is more behind the scenes stuff, what I know of DeAngelo is he is more a marketer then a creator of anything. All his material came from elswhere but he was the shrewd businessman to capitalize on First Mover advantage. I have a positive attitude towards it because it was the first stuff I encountered so I credit it with “saving me”.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    Yes, inner game will empower to you draw nice cartoons!

    No, inner game is a marketing thing for self steem + and self respect

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mike C,

    Yeah bro, but you become what you do, not what you fake. My cringe is about the fake word, not the overall concept. I think the word sets the wrong frame and produces a different result, but also attracts more people

    Changing is hard work. If you are doing stuff and getting transformed and learning and trying new attitudes and reinventing yourself, thats not “fake”

    Fake is when you remain the same but disguise as somebody else to get the results without putting the work. Fake is scam and in the same reign as the “fake until you get the six abs”

    So. In order to reinvent your current persona you have to go out of the box, clothing, accent, circle of friends, being “someone you are not”, at least, not yet. My emphasis is on the difference of doing that because you are CHANGING, and doing it because you are FAKING

    But, we agree on the principle I think

    DeAngelo introduced me to game and saved me as well. I have respect for the guy. In my case, my disappointment with the guy came when I got his sexual material and realized he was clueless about many things but was still selling a product, and that he had no deep understanding of why his cocky n funny material worked, no philosophy behind it, and he didnt comprehend many of the people he interviewed. So.. that lowered him on my eyes. I still recommend some of his stuff highly though.

  • BSD

    No I was hoping it would give me magic powers, because I want the ability to make puppies appear anywhere. It would be awesome.

    Actually, I was about to ask for some advice. My ex keeps asking me to fly out of town and visit him. I don’t want to because I have a bad feeling about it. He told me we would stay in separate rooms, but I don’t feel comfortable with it. It’s not that I don’t like him, I just feel like he’s pressuring me. Every conversation involves,”so, when are you going to visit me?” The other night I said I felt it was weird for a girl to go visit a boy. That it just doesn’t seem right. Even though I like him, I just can’t over ride that programming. He got mad. Would inner game have taught me a better way to manage that?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    And btw you´re no slow by any means!

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    He wants to fuck you, obviously, and also wants you to work for it. Its your call. If you dont feel like it, just tell him no.

  • BSD

    Ok cool. So I was right to delete his number after that?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Is there an inner game for women?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    Yeah, if its for real, why not. If you are going to concede the next time he calls you and repeat the on off, then no.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Byron,

    Is there an inner game for women?

    Feminism

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    :)

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    feminism inner game:

    No matter what the situation is, you are always the victim, so you are in your right to demand MORE!. No matter what happened, its never your fault, so you are on your right NOT to become accountable!. No matter what the facts are, your opinion is always RIGHT! scratch that, you dont need to listen to any facts! Whatever negative people tells about you, they are always WRONG! you are perfect honey. You dont even have to work for it. If you want something, just take it. Its your born right.

    Man thats a lot of inner game. Way to square your vision about the world.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    BSD,

    “In addition, studies have shown that women are more likely to apply to a job if she fits nearly all the criteria for the job, whereas men will apply even if they fit only one.”

    Aha, the 437-point checklist even extends to job requisitions!

    Isabel,

    “How does this work? Guys say they want intelligent girls and that there are barely any of them, which is a barefaced lie by the way. There are plenty of intelligent girls; the problem is that you deliberately overlook them in the first place and then wonder why you can’t see them.Then they say that intelligence is too much of a masculine trait and it would make them feel like they are ‘competing’ with her so it’s better if a girl sticks to inconsequential stuff (most of the time) and doesn’t ‘bother’ them too much with her opinions. So what is it? I can’t believe you call US the complicated gender!”

    This is such bullshit. As has been discussed on this thread, plenty of us guys noticed the intelligent women and pursued them. You know what? THEY DIDN’T WANT US! They wanted the same guys all the other girls wanted.

    Meanwhile, a portion of the intelligent women got bitter that Johnny Basketball didn’t want them, came to hate men, and projected it onto “men ignore smart women” memes. Another portion of them never developed basic attractive traits, or actively downplayed them because they “didn’t want to be like the bimbos” and checked themselves out of the SMP.

    Your rolling the issue into “men want submissive helpmeets” just shows what a strawman you are peddling.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    No matter what the situation is, you are always the victim, so you are in your right to demand MORE!. No matter what happened, its never your fault, so you are on your right NOT to become accountable!. No matter what the facts are, your opinion is always RIGHT! scratch that, you dont need to listen to any facts! Whatever negative people tells about you, they are always WRONG! you are perfect honey. You dont even have to work for it. If you want something, just take it. Its your born right.

    Now that’s what i call a strong frame.

  • BSD

    @Badger:

    I’m not talking about women choosing a job. I’m talking about her likelihood to apply to a job. For example, if a job says they want a local who studied x in college and has x years of experience and speaks French, a woman would only apply if she filled three of those requirements. Whereas a man would apply even if he fit none. Men overstate their intelligence and their accomplishments. Women understate them.

    This is the third time you’ve done something like this, I’m questioning your reading comprehension.

  • BSD

    I don’t know how any truly intelligent woman could even date Johnny Basketball.

    I don’t discriminate against all athletes, I do have some athlete friends that are intelligent and have a good moral center, etc. But the vast majority are painful to have conversations with. And they try so hard it’s embarrassing.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    if a job says they want a local who studied x in college and has x years of experience and speaks French, a woman would only apply if she filled three of those requirements. Whereas a man would apply even if he fit none.

    If I like the opening I would apply even if I have none of the requirements, with the backthought that maybe they even dont know what they want, or that I can fulfill other areas, and still get that job, a better job in that company, or a referral to another job from this opening.

    Pretty much the same skill as talking to women.

    I have emailed companies that didnt have postings just because I liked the company, and in some cases made friends and biz contacts. Its the same drive, men have that pushy thing, for good and bad.

    I dont need a door saying “this is for Yohami only” if I can get my way in on many doors. I´ll try and see what happens. Making my way in, instead of expecting the perfect, plate served opportunity to call me by my designated number. I make my destiny, I dont let it make me.

    And I see this as being biologically wired.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    if a job says they want a local who studied x in college and has x years of experience and speaks French, a woman would only apply if she filled three of those requirements.

    Why?

    Whereas a man would apply even if he fit none.

    Why? Why would he bother to do that ?

    Men overstate their intelligence and their accomplishments. Women understate them.

    I’ve never observed that in the men I’ve known. I see that much more in insecure women seeking validation.

  • BSD

    @Byron:

    Overall, men are the more confident gender. Studies have shown that women understate their intelligence, by at least 5 IQ points. Men inflate their intelligence. What you described about “insecure” woman probably wasn’t an insecure woman. She probably is that smart. You probably were thrown off by it. What you described, inflating your IQ because you’re insecure, is a male trait. Look at yohami and all the other guys in here, flexing their muscles, saying they have these absurdly high IQ’s. Only 1% of the population has an IQ over 137. When you start getting into the 140’s, you get down to 0.1% of the population. Statistically speaking, do you think that so many guys here are in the top 0.0001% of the population, up there with Einstein and all the other great thinkers of the world? I’m not saying they aren’t, they might as well be. But what are the odds, really?
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/01/22/he-s-not-as-smart-as-he-thinks.html
    Women are more insecure about applying to jobs so make sure they are perfect to apply. Men don’t care as much. Chances are, the man with fewer requirements will get the job.

    It seems foreign to men in the sphere, probably because a lot of you guys have met/been raised by ballbusting cunts, but again, NAWALT. In fact, most women aren’t like that. The end.

    Also, another thing I want to ask male readers:

    How many of the women you’ve met/dated have been like this? http://www.bpdcentral.com/images/Ihateyou.pdf
    It’s a flyer on borderline personality disorder and how it affects loved ones. A good read. This is random, but I’m curious if any of what you read in the flyer sounds familiar.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I’m not talking about women choosing a job. I’m talking about her likelihood to apply to a job. For example, if a job says they want a local who studied x in college and has x years of experience and speaks French, a woman would only apply if she filled three of those requirements. Whereas a man would apply even if he fit none. Men overstate their intelligence and their accomplishments. Women understate them.”

    We are on the exact same page – women don’t take flyers on jobs, which is a perfect analogy to the fact that they don’t take flyers on dating guys. Dating a guy is “applying for the job” of being his girlfriend. What that study suggests to me is that women want to have the whole package locked down before they want to put in any effort or commitment of their own. It fits perfectly with the statistics that women are more eager to divorce.

    What made you think I was talking about taking a job versus applying for it?

    “This is the third time you’ve done something like this, I’m questioning your reading comprehension.”

    My reading comprehension is fine; the problem is your reading context that isn’t there (putting words in people’s brains) and your tendency to get butthurt at the smallest perceptible slight. You are not alone in this, Butterfly Flower does this too although I doubt that makes you feel any better.

    I want to be as gentle as possible with this, but you are young, and you really know jack shit about how the world works. That is in fact a subtextual message of HUS, that young women are horribly educated about certain issues and Susan is trying to give them good information. This blog is run by a woman pushing 60, with key contributions from people like Brendan, Mike C, Aldonza, GudEnuf, Yohami – post-college personalities with an incredible knowledge base of observation and life experience. Coming here and telling people like me that we have reading problems is really presumptuous. I know how you feel, because I was you once; when I was young I was sure I knew everything. As I got older I realized what I didn’t know and adjusted my attitude accordingly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @badger

      This blog is run by a woman pushing 60

      This almost gave me a heart attack. I’m 54. I’ve never been bummed by a birthday yet, but I’m not exactly looking to fast forward 6 years. Still, your point is valid.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    Look at yohami and all the other guys in here, flexing their muscles, saying they have these absurdly high IQ’s.

    Im actually decreasing my number and not telling the whole story because its embarrasing. Bragging is such a bad idea.

  • Isabel

    This is such bullshit. As has been discussed on this thread, plenty of us guys noticed the intelligent women and pursued them. You know what? THEY DIDN’T WANT US! They wanted the same guys all the other girls wanted.

    Meanwhile, a portion of the intelligent women got bitter that Johnny Basketball didn’t want them, came to hate men, and projected it onto “men ignore smart women” memes. Another portion of them never developed basic attractive traits, or actively downplayed them because they “didn’t want to be like the bimbos” and checked themselves out of the SMP.

    Your rolling the issue into “men want submissive helpmeets” just shows what a strawman you are peddling.

    Erm, why so hostile? If you’d looked a little closer, you’d have noticed that I already criticised the intimidation meme and dismissed it as female projection a few posts back. All I questioned was the inconsistent stance from the same group of men. Bloody hell.

  • BSD

    No it wasn’t. In my predominantly Jewish town, schools get off one day for Rosh Hashanah and that’s it. Some districts may also give a day for Yom Kippur, and one day for Passover. By the way, none of these are given if the holiday falls on a weekend. Unless you attended the Solomon Schechter School in your city, you’re exaggerating to the point of lying.

    You’re talking about your town. My school districts got days off for every Jewish Holiday. Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Passover, and even if they landed on the weekend, they got the Friday before Monday after off. I know, because one year we had a four day weekend in the middle of October. Would the US do the same for Muslims? NO. I find it offensive that you’re calling me a liar, and extremely rude.

    Before you rush in to defend Jews, then you need to see how Jews treated the Cubans that came in to Miami. When my Cuban family was seeking shelter, the first thing all those old Jews would say is,”No pets, no kids, and no Cubans.” You’d think people who were persecuted would have some sympathy. But no, they didn’t. So that’s why I feel like Jews shouldn’t be given special treatment. That’s why I feel like they are constantly trying to relive shit over and over and over. I don’t care at this point if I’m being rude. Because I’ve seen how discriminatory they can be. I’ve heard the comments about how my mother’s accent makes her sound stupid. From Jews. And people call Cubans racist. The most racist person I’ve ever had to deal with was a Jewish housemate. She was also homophobic.

    I’m happy that you have a great relationship with your Jewish friends to the point where you’re practically Jewish yourself. That’s great. That’s never been my experience. Even when I was a lot more open minded. In fact, when I was, I was pretty much just told to grin and bear it while I got hit with racial slurs, because, you know, if not, I’d be an anti-Semite, which is the same as being a NAZI.

    Oh no, I’m an anti-Semite now for demanding respect from people!

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    What you described about “insecure” woman probably wasn’t an insecure woman. She probably is that smart. You probably were thrown off by it.

    Thanks for telling me what happened to me.

  • BSD

    @Badger:

    When a woman is on a date, she’s not applying to be your girlfriend. You’re applying to be her boyfriend. It’s how it works. Women choose. Men, not so much.

    “I want to be as gentle as possible with this, but you are young, and you really know jack shit about how the world works.”

    The fact that you think that women on dates with you are applying to be your girlfriend means you’ve distorted reality to fit your own gaps in self-esteem. I stopped reading past this sentence because at this point, you’re projecting. Try again later.

  • Dogsquat

    Mike C said:

    Hahaha, I’m the slow kid in the class with all you 150+ people commenting :)

    My name iz Dogsquat.
    I breeve wif my mouf open allatime.
    I drive a ambalamps.
    People dey call up on da fone and dey sick.
    I drive to dem hous.
    I find out whutz rong.
    Den I put medisin in der arm.
    Sumtimes I gotta putta toob in ther mouf for to make um breeve.
    Then we go to tha hopspitul.
    Now my hed hurtz frum thinkin.
    My name iz Dogsquat.

  • BSD

    @Susan Walsh:

    Having Tiger parents can be really emotionally damaging. Case in point, I’m the product of tiger parents and I seriously feel like a racehorse half the time. I don’t even feel like a child of loving parents, only a reflection of how good they are as parents, so if I’m not successful, I’ve failed them and have no purpose in the world. It sounds exaggerated but it’s literally the truth half the time. I seriously wish I were allowed to slip up every now and then. Sometimes I wish I had parents that would say,”We still love you, do better next time.” I envy that.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    BSD,

    When a woman is on a date, she’s not applying to be your girlfriend. You’re applying to be her boyfriend. It’s how it works. Women choose. Men, not so much.

    You keep missing the point…

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Chances are, the man with fewer requirements will get the job.”

    Part of this is because job requisitions are really bogus. Except for highly technical STEM or finance jobs, almost nobody needs everything listed in the req to do the job. You need to have some of the skills, the ability to learn, and to fit with the team so they want you coming to work.

    There have been two-plus generations dedicated to getting women into the male workplace and telling them they have to “do it like the men do,” which they usually mean as being sociopathic, vindictive and self-promoting (apex fallacy). But just like in dating, women as a whole (as a whole, there are pockets of exception) just don’t seem as interested in doing all the little things that men do to get ahead – like applying for risky jobs they may not get, and studies showing women work shorter workdays and take more leave. And even lots of men don’t do these things, and guess what, they don’t get ahead either. And in a comedic moment, careerist feminism has had more than one collective hangover moment where they said “we thought men just rolled up to work and were given corner offices, we had no idea it would be this hard.”

    I think it’s strongly correlated to dating behavior; women don’t want to risk rejection and don’t want to be judged, they only want to be in exchanges where they are in the driver’s seat. And just like dating, where a reasonably dominant man is what most women are most happy with despite their speeches to the contrary, workers are most happy with strong but capable management; you don’t WANT a job where you are setting your own schedule and planning your own work, it’s too much stress day to day.

    I have deep respect for the people who do want to do these things; I’ve worked with plenty of hardworking capable women and I value that experience. The ones who don’t always have an excuse, from “that’s not fun” to “that’s the man’s job” to “this office isn’t friendly to women.” If they don’t want to work as hard, in the right ways, as the dude in the next cube, it’s not my problem if they don’t go as far, just as it’s not my problem if they don’t land the man of their dreams if they insist on a passive mating strategy. Women deserve an equal shot at success in the workplace – that doesn’t excuse them from the responsibility to do what needs to be done to succeed.

  • Matt C

    Also, you can’t really consider the Jews oppressed because they’ve been doing successful things for centuries. The Holocaust was terrible, and so was the Inquisition, but it’s not the same as being a woman. For example, I bet female Jews aren’t as successful as male Jews. >.>’

    How do men oppress women?

    Throughout history, how have men oppressed women in ways where they weren’t oppressed themselves? Because, let’s remember here, throughout history the vast majority of men worked their ass off for little gain.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    BSD is off the donkey rails. We can only hope she started drinking at the morning tailgate and will return to sanity tomorrow evening. This thread is dead. Again.

    Isabel,

    “Erm, why so hostile?…All I questioned was the inconsistent stance from the same group of men. Bloody hell.”

    Hostility is because you are asserting a reality that doesn’t exist to try to give men some kind of agency they don’t have (in the aim of making us responsible for the situation of “smart girls.”) Most men date the women who choose them, most of us didn’t have any choice in our youth – we dated whoever was interested enough in us to spend time with us.

    No inconsistency here – I courted intelligent women, they rejected me, rinse and repeat. Things got better when I treated them the same way I treated the bimbos, and they were more attracted to me. I surmised that intelligent women were just women.

  • BSD

    @Badger:

    You call me off the donkey rail for my opinion but then you turn around AND STATE THE SAME THING.

    “Most men date the women who choose them, most of us didn’t have any choice in our youth – we dated whoever was interested enough in us to spend time with us.”

    Exactly. Men don’t choose, women do. It’s BIOLOGY. The end.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Following up my earlier post, career tips for young people (women’s advocacy groups especially should tell women to do all these things):

    -Apply for every job in which you have even a vague interest (and don’t ever turn down a job you haven’t been offered – if someone recommends you for a job, apply hard)
    -Show up to work early and don’t be the first one to leave
    -Avoid workplace gossip about personal lives, it takes away from your gravitas
    -Dress classily and professionally; don’t dress as a peacocking social-order competition
    -Volunteer for everything, don’t EVER even think “this is not my job.”
    -…the only exception: don’t be somebody’s chump and don’t do someone else’s work for them
    -Make deposits in the favor bank
    -Know what you’re worth, seriously; ask for it and counteroffer, but don’t push your luck or you look clueless
    -Don’t shortchange your current employer, but always think about your next job while in your current one; your career comes from one job building into another
    -The best thing you can do to get ahead is to be outstanding in your current job
    -Cultivate mentors and advocates (i.e., a higher network) within your company and keep in contact with old ones
    -Don’t stay in a bad job more than six months after you’ve decided it’s a bad one. Work your networks hard when you need a new one. Every day you stay in a bad job (or relationship) a little piece of you dies and you start accepting mediocrity
    -You can have a personal life, but the important things need to be prioritized (e.g. family if you have one) and the rest put below the job

  • BSD

    @Susan Walsh: No, not a camel toe. I always wear a belt with my jeans because they’re loose around the waist. I mean like skinny jeans I guess. Actually even bootleg. Pretty much any jean that isn’t boyfriend fitted.

  • Abbot

    If they don’t want to work as hard, in the right ways, as the dude in the next cube, it’s not my problem
    .
    And its not the problem of the company, of society or anyone but themselves. The workplace will NOT be adjusted for the benefit of any one person or group of people. The standard of excellence is set by those who excel no matter who they are or what enables them to excel. Anyone who suggests that there be regression to the crybaby lower common denominator should be ashamed of themselves and just stay home.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    BSD,

    “You call me off the donkey rail for my opinion but then you turn around AND STATE THE SAME THING.”

    Thanks for proving my point about you getting your panties in a bunch over nothing. I was talking about the caca you are spewing about the Jews.

    “Exactly. Men don’t choose, women do. It’s BIOLOGY. The end.”

    Actually, it doesn’t really work this way. Alpha men select women – women select from the men that are left. Women are the gatekeepers of sex, but men are the gatekeepers of commitment, which is what women really want and what women seem to be very poor at getting in exchange for sex. Point, alpha men.

    It’s more of the Bereznak-esque narcissism we see today. Women like to think they are the selectors, but whenever women are selecting, they are selecting from less-fit men – if they were attractive to alpha men, they would have already been selected. It’s another one of the great paradoxes of the SMP: women stomp that they want the power in the SMP, but they are most turned on by men who have more power than them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Bereznak-esque narcissism

      Well that’s a mouthful.

  • BSD

    @Badger:

    I’m not getting my panties in a bunch. I use caps FOR EMPHASIS because hitting shift is easier than stopping to type to click the b or the i button. The fact that you perceive me to be getting my panties in a bunch means you must be emotionally distraught yourself.

    Actually, it doesn’t really work this way. Alpha men select women – women select from the men that are left. Women are the gatekeepers of sex, but men are the gatekeepers of commitment, which is what women really want and what women seem to be very poor at getting in exchange for sex. Point, alpha men.

    And the easiest way for a male to obtain regular sex is to obtain commitment from a woman. Therefore, commitment does benefit men. The only change is in this SMP with “alpha” males aka manwhores. Realistically, these are very few men, and they aren’t the top pick of any woman with any common sense.

    “I was talking about the caca you are spewing about the Jews.”
    And I don’t see how what I was spewing was caca. It’s the truth. I’m sick and tired of being in a culture where a group of people can do no wrong because their ancestors were put through a genocide. I’m not justifying the genocide or saying what happened was acceptable or okay or not that bad. I’m just saying that it doesn’t make them immune from criticism. You just proved my point right now.

    I’m sick and tired of sitting at school and having everyone sit down and nod along with whatever Israel is doing, because if you disagree with anything that happens, even if Israel decides it’s time to bomb the whole fucking world, you’re an anti-semite. Heaven forbid you say that the problems that would happen with the Balfour Declaration could have been foreseen, you’re an anti-semite!

    So yes, maybe Jews don’t get affirmative action in schools. Yes, they are successful. But it doesn’t make them superhuman or immune from criticism. And after dealing with them being racist and xenophobic to my family, well, I’m sorry. Maybe it’s just some individual people who are that way. But I’m not going to sit here and deny what happened because the people who mistreated my family were part of a larger group that went through a genocide. People don’t give that sort of social privilege to Armenians or to people from Darfur. They won’t even give it to blacks, being racist against blacks in this sphere is okay, because, you know, they have lower IQ’s and are statistically more violent in the minds of some people (and I know people from HUS tend to be more level headed and probably won’t agree with that, but I’ve seen some extremely disturbing blogs in this area of the internet).

    I’m just noting how different minorities are treated in this country, and how ironic it is. No one would treat a Muslim with the same care and respect as a Jew. No one would treat a Christian with that same sensitivity. It’s okay to make fun of the Bible or God or Jesus. It’s okay to racially profile Muslims and call them all terrorists. No one would treat Hispanics or Blacks in that same way, even though Cubans have higher rates of obtaining college degrees that nonHispanic whites. Gee….

  • Mike C

    It’s more of the Bereznak-esque narcissism we see today. Women like to think they are the selectors, but whenever women are selecting, they are selecting from less-fit men – if they were attractive to alpha men, they would have already been selected.

    You forgot one step. After they select from the less-fit men, the hamsters get busy convincing themselves they really have an alpha who had a ton of options, and they post about their alpha boyfriends. :)

    I have to admit…I’ve been mildly amused by what seems a bunch of comments from women about their alpha virgin boyfriends, alpha video-gamer boyfriends, alpha 29-year old virgin. Granted, maybe it is theoretically possible a guy could be alpha and still be a virgin in late 20s for religious reasons, or have hobbies traditionally associated with more beta types, and mind you I’ll be the first to admit I am not a natural alpha by any means. I’d characterize myself as a greater beta who learned to incorporate alpha behavior. I just find it funny that women can’t just admit they selected a beta. It is like their esteem is on the line that they have to pretend they got an alpha who chose them from the group of girls in his harem.

  • Mike C

    And the easiest way for a male to obtain regular sex is to obtain commitment from a woman. Therefore, commitment does benefit men. The only change is in this SMP with “alpha” males aka manwhores. Realistically, these are very few men, and they aren’t the top pick of any woman with any common sense.

    Hahahah. You serious? If the bolded part was the way it worked, this blog wouldn’t exist.

    And Susan has even mentioned now she is hearing from women who say betas are reluctant to commit and they are still getting the punani from some of those girls.

    To your last sentence, you are essentially saying most women don’t have common sense.

  • imnobody

    imnobody makes no mention of it being ‘better’ to ‘return to traditional gender roles’, he simply states certain easily observable innate differences between the sexes that account for some of the disparity in male/female achievements in science & politics.

    You’re (possibly unintentionally) interpreting his meaning incorrectly because you are filtering his words, & indeed the entire actual world through the lens & language of feminist ideology.

    Thank you, Byron. That’s what I meant. (In the first place, I am not in favor of gender roles. I am not against gender roles either. But this is not the discussion).

    I think many people are not aware of the extent which feminism has penetrated not only public discourse, but also private language, thoughts and brains. Feminism (and some other ideologies) are like the air: we barely notice but they are everywhere.

    One sign is what has happened here. You see people telling women are better than men many times and this does not produce any reaction. In TV, women are better than men (more sensible, more nurturing, better managers, better politicians). A world ruled by women would be a better world. Women can mulitask and men don’t. Women are better at linguistic abilities. Women are more perceptive. Women have this sixth sense, called feminine intuition and so on and so forth.

    You can hear this once and again and nobody will notice. Or, even more, this would be followed by an automatic applause (like Bill Maher says the Youtube video linked at the end of this message)

    But say that men are better than women in SOMETHING. Now, depending on the audience, you can watch reactions similar to Muslim fundamentalists when you say something bad about Islam. Even in HUS, where people are mostly moderate and anti-feminist, I know that my breaking of the taboo was going to produce reaction.

    Because it is not possible for people to accept that men are better than women IN ANYTHING. Even if there are HARD facts. They enter in cognitive dissonance: they cannot accept what is against their religion of female superiority. This is how far feminism has penetrated in our psyche.

    For example, personally, I don’t give a damn about who reads magazines. But these are HARD facts. Even with this, people react with all kind of mechanisms to deal with cognitive dissonance.

    One of such mechanisms is to invent a conspiracy. So Muslim who don’t want to accept that Muslim fundamentalists had destroyed the Twin Towers, often say that 9/11 it was a conspiracy directed by Jews only to discredit Muslims.

    The feminist conspiracy theory invented to deal with facts against feminism is called “the patriarchy”. Women are better than men but men have been oppressing women for millennia so women have not been able to develop their true potential (it’s really surprising that creatures as inferior as men have dominated superior human beings like women for millennia)

    So somebody can say that men are better than women in science (THE HORROR!!!). This is true: you only have to see the statistics today, five years ago or five centuries ago. However, many people not only will disagree but get angry or recur to snark. They will dismiss this, make a cheap argument or, if they are more intelligent, they will recur to the trite conspiracy theory (“the patriarchy”) They will tie themselves in knots only not to admit the evidence.

    Because it is inconceivable that men are better than women in anything. Even if we have hard facts, and men are better, it’s because men have been oppressing for millennia the natural superior abilities of women. That is, even when men are good, it’s because they are bad.

    People don’t realize how tough is to be a little boy and hear that everything you are is bad. You are men invented wars, men oppressed women, men are pigs, women are more sophisticated, better in everything. Male achievement is minimized and female achievement is maximized. And don’t get me started if you are a feminist boy (the way I was): rapist, a testosterone-marinated creature, sexual harasser and so on and so forth.

    Women don’t care about this, because they usually don’t care about injustices against men: they usually ignore, approve, applaud or cheer about these injustices. But let me say: when the sh*t hits the fan, the ones who are having to live in a hell won’t be men. They will be women.

  • BSD

    @MikeC:

    Lol ButterflyFlower.

    You know, I noticed back when I was in a relationship, the more miserable I was , the more I talked about how awesome my boyfriend was, even though I wouldn’t answer his calls and I grew distanced from him very quickly. I really didn’t like him. And he theoretically fit the stereotype of alpha, which is what made what I said more believable. Tall, good looking, a bit of a jerk, and ROTC. But he was so boring to talk to. And obnoxious, he would not leave me alone. He also tried emotionally blackmailing me. He really sucked.

    It could be though that they are very attracted to their boyfriends, and therefore, he seems perfect to them. This is common among young girls having their first love. And with nerd culture becoming mainstream…going against the grain is hot. Athlete guys who sleep around a lot are old news to some people.

  • BSD

    @Mike C:

    Common sense is the least common of the senses?

  • imnobody

    Damn, the video link didn’t appear:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r11Vl0zrrcM

  • imnobody

    And the easiest way for a male to obtain regular sex is to obtain commitment from a woman.

    Mike C has answer that, saying it is not true. But what if this is true? I am always amazed at the importance than American men give to sex. So any discussion about the usefulness of getting married is ended with “But dude, I get steady sex!”. Even if the wife is a harpy (Note to the PC people: I am not saying that all women are harpies, but there is a 1% who is). Even if the wife makes her life miserable. Everything for a bit of mediocre sex with the same woman, once in a blue moon, even if the woman is fat. And then, they complain about feminism and about women who think that their vagina is worth gold (where did they get this stupid idea from? from men, for example?) .

    When I think of marriage, I don’t think about sex. I can have sex wherever I want. And I am able to endure long years in celibacy. Sex is good but it is only for a while. I think about kids, about companionship, about growing old together, about hugging, about travel together, about the drudgery of everyday’s life, about having somebody to talk with when I am older. That is, the things I cannot get without marriage. Sex? Not a problem. If you can’t stand celibacy, you can get prostitutes.

  • BSD

    imnobody, wow, that was really insightful.

    And in regards to my previous posts, I wasn’t trying to offend people or come off racist, but I’m not making stuff up. I was being 100% honest and I got upset when Susan called me a liar. I’m sorry if what I said offended anyone, and I could easily see how what I worded would offend people, and regret my wording. But I’d just like people to think about it and the way people are treated. If you don’t agree with me that’s fine.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BSD
      I don’t think you’re a liar. I just wanted to get the point across that your claims were so exaggerated that they crossed the line into blatant untruth.

  • Abbot

    it’s easier to make women nod than to live in the doghouse
    – Bill Maher

    .
    And that is exactly what feminism is banking on…male acquiescence

  • BSD

    My claims were so exaggerated? My claims are supported by evidence. Take a look at any calendar in a public school system where I’m located. Thanks.

  • BSD

    Not to mention the issues in Israel in which Sephardic Jews are frequently discriminated against (by Ashkenazi Jews), along with Christians and Moslems. I think that’s telling enough.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Isabel wrote:

    This is the kind of stuff I hear on a regular basis, give or take:

    [I do not repeat quotes. See linked comment for them.]

    WHAT GIVES?!

    And being a man yourself, what’s the general consensus?

    Well, I have not heard that kind comments.

    Sorry, so I can not say what is the general consensus. ☺

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    -Show up to work early and don’t be the first one to leave
    -Avoid workplace gossip about personal lives, it takes away from your gravitas
    -Dress classily and professionally; don’t dress as a peacocking social-order competition
    -Volunteer for everything, don’t EVER even think “this is not my job.”

    Really good career tips for women from Badger.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ll add my best career tips for women from my own personal experience.

      – Don’t think of how you can do your best as a way of gaining respect and advancing your career. Put all your energy into making your boss look good. That involves doing your best, but much more. I delivered top quality work and considerable ego reinforcement, while making them look brilliant for senior management. Every male boss I ever had became an enthusiastic mentor to me, and I leapfrogged over my peers.

      – Do everything in your power to avoid reporting to a woman. Every female boss I ever had was a heartless bitch who would rather see me fired than promoted. Hopefully this has changed in the last 20 years with more women in the workforce. In general, though, I think women are less loyal in professional situations, and more likely to view another women as a competitor. It’s just intrasexual competition in a new format.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    But say that men are better than women in SOMETHING. Now, depending on the audience, you can watch reactions similar to Muslim fundamentalists when you say something bad about Islam.

    :) It’s funny ’cause it’s true.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    The feminist conspiracy theory invented to deal with facts against feminism is called “the patriarchy”. Women are better than men but men have been oppressing women for millennia so women have not been able to develop their true potential (it’s really surprising that creatures as inferior as men have dominated superior human beings like women for millennia)

    Gold.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    People don’t realize how tough is to be a little boy and hear that everything you are is bad. You are men invented wars, men oppressed women, men are pigs, women are more sophisticated, better in everything. Male achievement is minimized and female achievement is maximized. And don’t get me started if you are a feminist boy (the way I was): rapist, a testosterone-marinated creature, sexual harasser and so on and so forth.

    Women don’t care about this, because they usually don’t care about injustices against men: they usually ignore, approve, applaud or cheer about these injustices. But let me say: when the sh*t hits the fan, the ones who are having to live in a hell won’t be men. They will be women.

    It ain’t no lie.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    I’ve been mildly amused by what seems a bunch of comments from women about their alpha virgin boyfriends, alpha video-gamer boyfriends, alpha 29-year old virgin.

    Yep, that’s been tickling me, too. It is nigh-on impossible for me to imagine a 29 year-old virgin being an alpha male. Except perhaps in a highly religious prison colony.

    I just find it funny that women can’t just admit they selected a beta. It is like their esteem is on the line that they have to pretend they got an alpha who chose them from the group of girls in his harem.

    And there’s the reason: A man is an alpha because he is my boyfriend & I like him. A beta is a man who is not my boyfriend & I don’t like. Brilliant.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Susan
    I must admit that the best boss I’ve ever had was male.

    And now that I’m thinking about him again . . . He was the chef at the hostel where I lived while earning my college degree. Everyone liked him (except his boss, who was . . . wait for it . . . a woman!) Anyway, after he had been around for a while, he came up in a conversation I was having with two other girls (one of whom also worked in the kitchen with me); and when one of them said, as if she was having an epiphany, “You know, P____ would make a great husband,” we all laughed, but agreed.

    We laughed because he’s not what you’d think a college girl would go for: he was twice our age, bald, kind of fat, and frankly not that good looking :P . . . but we agreed because, as my roommate put it, he “knew a lot of things.” He knew how to help one student sort things out with her insurance company, he helped other students pick out the best flat when they wanted to move out, he helped a girl who was just diagnosed with celiac disease by making her a special meal each night, and he even proofread my letter to immigration when my visa was about to expire but I needed an extra week to come up with the semester’s tuition money. He just exuded competence and was an all-around great guy.

  • Abbot

    it’s really surprising that creatures as inferior as men have dominated superior human beings like women for millennia
    .
    It was self-imposed contrived inferiority due to differential motivations and dependancy on men for fulfillment and self actualization. Oh the times have not changed.

  • Lavazza

    Reminds me about this episode of How I met your mother.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woooo!_(How_I_Met_Your_Mother_episode)

    Sometimes leaving her pack of friends to make herself approachable is a smart girl move.

  • Lavazza

    Attributing wrong reasons for observations can propably be explained by the “left hemisphere interpreter”, which seems to be more prevalent in women’s way of thinking.

    http://www.wwnorton.com/college/psych/psychsci3/dd_exercise/04_09.html

  • Lavazza
  • Jesus Mahoney

    imnobody,

    When I think of marriage, I don’t think about sex.”

    I think about sex when I think of marriage. I think about sex when I read. I think about sex when I’m chowing down on an omelet in the morning (or really dreaming of an omelet since I’m fasting most mornings now).

    Honestly though, I think I see your point, but I could be wrong. I think sex is an important way for couples to develop and maintain intimacy. It’s not the only thing that’s important, of course, but I think a sexless marriage sounds more like friendship than marriage. Friendship’s great, but so is sex, and intimacy is pretty okay too. A marriage in which sex is unimportant just sounds like friendship and a vow of celibacy. True, there’s the possibility of kids with marriage, and I’ve always wanted kids, but I’d rather play uncle to my nieces and nephews and friends’ kids than be stuck in a sexless marriage. All this is irrelevant to me of course, since I’ve sworn off marriage, but still it’s interesting to me.

    All that said, I think you may be wrong about American men and marriage. I know a lot of married friends who just aren’t getting it anymore. Yet still claim to be happy. I guess they’ve learned to subsist on internet porn.

    I have no moral problem with internet porn, but I think half the fun of sex is knowing that the naked woman in front of me is a. real, and b. getting off with ME. Prostitutes are lame, too. I think if I were ever with a hooker, I’d be too busy thinking, “oh, come on, you’re full of shit. If you’re enjoying it this much, then let me have my money back,” every time she grunted or moaned.

    What you’re saying seems to be the flip side of the same argument that the sex pozzies make: it’s the separation of sex and love, except that you’re separating them in favor of love while they’re separating the two in favor of sex.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    BSD,

    Tall, good looking, a bit of a jerk, and ROTC.

    The ROTC kids were popular in your school? In our school, they were like the bottom of the social barrel. The dregs. The dregs wouldn’t even associate with the ROTC kids. They were social pariahs. Of course, the kids who were considered cool in my school would sew metal armor inside their leather jackets so they could block baseball bats and pipes and then smash kids’ faces in with their forearms. Or else they were the 19 yr olds with full beards in the 10th grade. Some jocks, too, of course. But the gang kids (of all colors, but mostly white were I was) were the top dogs in my high school.

    I was a bit of a clown, but mostly nerdy. I rode through high school on the reputation of my older brother. He was a maniac, as I think I’ve mentioned. Known for fights, but most known for whipping out his dick in class and telling his Italian teacher to suck it in middle school, and then in high school, decking the assistant principal (when he got kicked out).

  • Abbot

    What you’re saying seems to be the flip side of the same argument that the sex pozzies make: it’s the separation of sex and love, except that you’re separating them in favor of love while they’re separating the two in favor of sex..
    .
    Meaning that that he is Love Pozzy and they are NOT. They are genitalia obsessed shells of humans with no souls. Keep them out of your communities and away from your children.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Abbot,

    They are genitalia obsessed shells of humans with no souls.

    Maybe what Sue said about hate carrying a sort of sexual tension applies to you and sluts? Methinks the Abbot doth protest too much.

    What I’m saying is that genitalia are fun and can be a means of expressing love and developing as well as maintaining intimacy. I see no reason to break out the scalpel and excise sex from marriage. It would be like Love, amputated.

    The similarity between imnobody and the sex pozzies has to do with the separation of sex and love. I’m not claiming that imnobody shouldn’t be love positive; I’m saying that sex can be a terrific expression of that love.

  • Mike C

    @Badger

    I wanted to respond to your post on career advice, especially because of this part:

    -You can have a personal life, but the important things need to be prioritized (e.g. family if you have one) and the rest put below the job

    Your list is great advice….IF….IF…your primary objective in life is to steadily march up the corporate ladder, and IF you really think that is the thing that will bring contentment in your life. I’d submit most people don’t really know on the most deep primal level, why “career success” is important to them other then what that is what their parents and society told them to do.

    Timing on things sometimes is weird. I happen to be reading whiteboy’s blog and discovered a new blog that hits on some of the themes I am alluding to…the blog is called Delusion Damage. In my opinion, it is major red pill/blue shit just not exclusively applied to men-women interaction/dating/mating but to the entire way we organize and live our lives in modern Western society.

    Just my opinion, but in terms of jobs/career there are two equilibrium points from a Game Theory perspective. One equilibrium is to do all the things you advise and even more so you can optimize your chances of rising through the ranks into higher authority positions, middle management, senior management, etc. The other equilibrium is you do the bare minimum possible to get your paycheck and then invest the excess time and energy that gets you into things more related to your own individuality and self-development (such as studying philosophy instead of an extra hour at work) instead of serving the corporate machine.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Mike C,

    I understand your point, my tips were under the subtext of getting ahead. But I think they are also applicable to doing well in your field without necessarily looking to advance.

    I don’t have any real interest in “climbing” the corporate ladder, what I do want is to grow my reputation so I can keep myself in demand and keep my options open as the years go by.

    For me it’s just a matter of pride of not bullshitting my way through the workday. I always seek jobs where the company believes in me and supports me (helps me do my best so the company gets my best), so I owe it to said company to come in early, treat people well and not shirk. I’ve been in cube-drone jobs and they blow, although sometimes it can’t be avoided; those places are where you shouldn’t be selling out because the company won’t be doing the same for you.

  • Dogsquat

    Mike See and Kid Mustelida said:

    -You can have a personal life, but the important things need to be prioritized (e.g. family if you have one) and the rest put below the job

    Your list is great advice….IF….IF…your primary objective in life is to steadily march up the corporate ladder, and IF you really think that is the thing that will bring contentment in your life.

    This made me think of something that isn’t talked about enough:

    The place I work right now is looking to hire several new people. The unofficial word from the rank-and-file types is that if management hires another single mom, there will be hell to pay.

    I have no idea how management is supposed to deliver on that demand, but if they don’t I’m going to be as pissed as anyone.

    I can’t think of one single mom that is well thought of in my workplace. It’s not due to technical skills or competence or anything like that, it’s because they’re perceived as “not having your back”.

    Due to family obligations that are so strenuous, as a group they’re almost never willing/able to switch shifts or cover for you when you’re sick/injured. They also try and gravitate to the jobs that have defined end times – working in the ER vs ambulance means you won’t get stuck on a call out in BFE when your shift’s supposed to be up.

    I think a big part of the contentment you speak of is doing good work and having the respect of your peers – not necessarily fighting your way to the top. In my place of work, lots of the women are shooting themselves in the foot in that regard.

    So, ladies, if you want to be respected, minimize the amount of times you crap on your coworkers because “I have to pick up my kids, so I can’t do XYZ…” Once in awhile that is unavoidable, but remember when you do it and make it up to the folks you work with ASAP.

    I’ve long thought that the type of work you do isn’t as important as enjoying the people you work with. Don’t let your family obligations lead your coworkers to resent the hell out of you – find another gig instead.

  • imnobody

    @Jesus

    I think sex is an important way for couples to develop and maintain intimacy. It’s not the only thing that’s important, of course, but I think a sexless marriage sounds more like friendship than marriage.

    I agree with that. I think I expressed myself wrongly. Of course, sex is important in marriage. But it’s not the ONLY THING. And only having sex is not a enough strong reason to get married (you can better options: porn, prostitutes or simply learn Game). But sex can be ONE of the reasons

    I think about sex when I think of marriage. I think about sex when I read. I think about sex when I’m chowing down on an omelet in the morning .

    See, that’s what I am saying. American men are obsessed about sex and do ANYTHING to have it. This is why feminism won. Feminism would not have won with the help and acquiescence of men.

    Don’t get wrong, every man in the world loves sex. We are wired for that. But this level of obsession does not seem normal to me. I think it is part of the pedestalization built into American culture. Sex with a woman is a mystical experience, the supreme goal of male existence, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. You see in Roosh and Roissy: it seems that they don’t have any other purpose in life than to meet another pussy. Yawn.

    Sex is sex. A pleasurable experience. A need. But, between my dignity and sex, I choose my dignity. I have rejected offers of sex because they were violating my dignity.

    I see that American men choose sex before dignity EVERY TIME. It’s like: “Dude! I have to get laid! Dude! I need to! Dude I can’t be without!”. They can’t stand everything only for the POSSIBILITY of having sex. Then, they complain that women treat them like dirt.

    (Of course, not all American men are like that, NAAMALT).

  • Abbot

    Here is a SATC channeler from WOE Island [Great Britian]:
    [img]http://static2.dmcdn.net/static/video/954/803/6308459:jpeg_preview_medium.jpg?20110610005154[/img]
    .
    C’mon, fess up, were you among the scores of men who got some of that free milk?
    .
    Well its too late now. Cow was bought. Finally. But if you’re up for a trip that includes quickies, the Isle of WOE is the best. Its what Cuba was pre Castro. Get in. Get out. And be thankful that its an isolated island.
    .
    Now, the very fact that this crap is written:
    .
    http://www.fabulousmag.co.uk/fabmag/_fabulous/nolfabulous_features/1355570/Sex-number.html
    .
    indicates absolutely that there is an audience and a VERY concerned one at that. In fact, in just the past few years there has been an escalation of such articles. Why? Has the air been let out of the “SATC I can do whatever the fuck I want without consequences” tire. Psssssst. Hard lessons learned. Seems that its not going according to plan for about half the fertile-aged people on WOE Island.
    .

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    BSD wrote:

    An IQ of over 200? You do realize that almost no one in the world has an IQ that high,

    Perhaps Intelligence quotient was normalized with some other value of standard deviation than 15 ?

    An intelligence quotient, or IQ, is a score derived from one of several different standardized tests designed to assess intelligence. When modern IQ tests are constructed, the median score is set to 100 and a standard deviation to 15. Today almost all IQ tests adhere to the assignment of 15 IQ points to each standard deviation, but this has not been the case historically.

    Also final result is get when big number of raw scores are normalized. Perhaps some older normalization was used?

    Since the early 20th century, raw scores on IQ tests have increased in most parts of the world. When a new version of an IQ test is normed, the standard scoring is set so that performance at the population median results in a score of IQ 100. The phenomenon of rising raw score performance means that if test-takers are scored by a constant standard scoring rule, IQ test scores have been rising at an average rate of around three IQ points per decade.

    So in short these values are just relative to results of other test subjects.

    Results also varies depending how various subtests are weighted.

    Most IQ tests are constructed so that there are no overall score differences between females and males. Because environmental factors affect brain activity and behavior, where differences are found, it can be difficult for researchers to assess whether or not the differences are innate. Areas where differences have been found include verbal and mathematical ability.

    So that whole IQ is quite unclear meter.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    imnobody,

    between my dignity and sex, I choose my dignity.

    This I agree with wholeheartedly.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I see that American men choose sex before dignity EVERY TIME.”

    To paraphrase a saying popular in America, those who would give up dignity for sex deserve neither.

    And in fact will get neither, as an indignified man is not attractive to women.

  • jamie

    @Jesus

    I was a bit of a clown, but mostly nerdy. I rode through high school on the reputation of my older brother. He was a maniac, as I think I’ve mentioned. Known for fights, but most known for whipping out his dick in class and telling his Italian teacher to suck it in middle school, and then in high school, decking the assistant principal (when he got kicked out).

    I’m still waiting for your biography…..in which you escape from your family by crawling inside an enormous peach….or perhaps develop telekinesis to fuck with them.

  • Abbot

    The hypergamous soft harem: hamster wheel notes from the field
    .
    when you shriek that some woman is a “bitch” and a “cunt” and a “narcissist” and a “predator” and whatever else, just because she didn’t want to fuck some dude, just because she detailed her reasons why and didn’t bother to pretend she found the guy’s interests attractive, and just because that makes you worry that there might be people in the world who don’t want to fuck you or who don’t find you attractive (SURPRISE, there are, this is also true for everyone else in existence), well: guess who’s actually the bully in this situation? Guess who’s actually siding with the crowd to try and hurt someone else’s feelings? And guess who’s actually reinforcing oppression by doing so? Hint: It’s not the girl who turned down a date.
    .
    http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/31/elitism-now-it-basically-just-means-not-having-sex-with-everybody/

    .

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Isabel wrote:

    @ Mike C

    I’m also the one of slow people here. Iirc, mine is 120. SUCK IT NERDS. I GOT PAST SECURITY.

    I have no even idea which is mine.

    (I assume that this talk is about IQ.)

  • jamie

    I see that American men choose sex before dignity EVERY TIME. It’s like: “Dude! I have to get laid! Dude! I need to! Dude I can’t be without!”. They can’t stand everything only for the POSSIBILITY of having sex. Then, they complain that women treat them like dirt.

    LOL. this is SO true. I’ve turned down dates with some guys because I know for a fact that they’ve been with gross chicks.

    Was visiting with my old roommate this weekend and gossiping about how his new roommate, a bisexual woman orbiting around 350 pounds, had, within 2 weeks, banged 4 of the men living on our street. This included one of the neighbors that I kinda had a little thing for, but now I look at him and shake my head laughing. I think, “really? you couldn’t wait for something better?”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    Which story includes the telekinesis? Reality is far more mundane. It consists of a bunch of therapy until you get sick of exploring your “issues” and sick of your therapist, and finally just stay as far away from family and therapist as possible.

  • jamie

    Jesus,

    Matilda. Which is probably the best one, I think.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Steph,

    I’ve analyzed my childhood to death. Tbh, I think that the game and associated literature I’ve been reading lately has made more of a difference than any of the therapy has.

    Jamie,

    Ah. Isn’t Roald Dahl great? I could’ve used a peach as a kid. Reading was my peach in a lot of ways, actually. And game has been my flock of seagulls.

  • jamie

    Jesus,

    He really really is. He’s got a biography out that I want to read. I’ve found excerpts of it online which were fascinating. Did you know that he and Ian Fleming were friends during WW2?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    I didn’t know that. Did you know that he also wrote short stories for adults? I ran across a collection a couple of years ago, and they’re every bit as good as the children’s books he wrote. Better, in some ways….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I didn’t know that. Did you know that he also wrote short stories for adults? I ran across a collection a couple of years ago, and they’re every bit as good as the children’s books he wrote. Better, in some ways….

      One of my most memorable reading experiences as a young adolescent was Kiss Kiss, a book of RD short stories. I can still remember them 40 years later. I think it may be out of print, but get a hold of it if you can. It’s well worth a read.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    Was visiting with my old roommate this weekend and gossiping about how his new roommate, a bisexual woman orbiting around 350 pounds, had, within 2 weeks, banged 4 of the men living on our street. This included one of the neighbors that I kinda had a little thing for, but now I look at him and shake my head laughing. I think, “really? you couldn’t wait for something better?”

    First of all, at 350 lbs, you’d think that things would start orbiting around HER.

    I think the whole putting sex before dignity thing goes both ways, though it’s more common with guys. I know guys who’ll scrape the bottom of the barrel in order to get some sex. But I also know some girls who’ve gotten busy with guys they knew were total douche bags, because they were “drunk” or the guy was “hot” or whatever reason they thought justified it.

  • Abbot

    But I also know some girls who’ve gotten busy with guys they knew were total douche bags, because they were “drunk” or the guy was “hot” or whatever reason they thought justified it.
    .
    Sort of the profile of females in the SMP generally. But how many times can you justify burying your dignity before it becomes part of your character to not have any sexually speaking?

  • jamie

    Jesus,

    Tales of the Unexpected is SO GOOD. I was really surprised when I found out that he actually did a lot of adult writing. I’m glad we’re talking Dahl. I think that’s what I’m going to read next. You should join goodreads.com and geek out over books with me. Dogsquat got an account.

    Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel
    Thing is, since 2 of those guys are friends of ours and we have been shamelessly making fun of them for “having Tons of Fun” (the girl’s official nickname when she’s not present) pretty much all weekend. So I’m still having trouble wrapping my mind around it. I mean, if your friends are going to rag on you for the foreseeable future, is it really worth it?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    That is why I personally recommend psycoanalisis. You have a goal, find the root of them and slay them.

    Never worked for me.

    I think that the game and associated literature I’ve been reading lately has made more of a difference than any of the therapy has.

    That makes more sense. One of the fundamental flaws of psychoanalysis is that it attempts to normalize the subject to fit in with whatever are the prevalent societal norms. When put like that it becomes immediately evident where it falls short: What if the society you are living in is not healthy? To normalize someone to the ‘nomal’ behaviour of victorian society would be, we would almost universally agree, twisted & damaging. Since every society we know of, including our own – perhaps especially our own – has unhealthy beliefs & false assumptions that must eventually be disproved, at the most that process can only be a temporary fix.

    The deeper task, it seems to me, must be to discover the truth about our true nature & then align our beliefs & actions with that truth. This won’t necessarily make ones day-to-day dealings with the rest of the human race any easier, sadly, & won’t make you any better of an office drone. But for me the alternative is a waste of a life.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jamie,

    I wouldn’t care about getting ragged on. If it were just a matter of that, I’d go for it. I just don’t see the point in having sport sex with a beached whale.

    I’ll look up goodreads later today.

    Sue,

    Kiss, Kiss includes the story “Pig,” about the boy raised as a vegetarian on his Aunt’s farm, who comes to discover pork when he hits the city. That’s my favorite Dahl story.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus
      The three stories I recall most vividly are Royal Jelly, Parson’s Pleasure and The Landlady. RD was really so deliciously twisted.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Byron,

    The deeper task, it seems to me, must be to discover the truth about our true nature & then align our beliefs & actions with that truth. This won’t necessarily make ones day-to-day dealings with the rest of the human race any easier

    Truth. Of course life is the interface between the you with the not-you. So you find your truth, make it your master, and then find a way to embody it in the world. It’s not “easier.” The drone glides by smooth as a raft on the watery surface of the world. It meets little resistance because it lacks depth. It may sail smoothly, but it’s easily veered off in different directions. If you have depth, lumbering along takes more power, but it’s far more difficult to be knocked off course by a few waves.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The drone glides by smooth as a raft on the watery surface of the world. It meets little resistance because it lacks depth. It may sail smoothly, but it’s easily veered off in different directions. If you have depth, lumbering along takes more power, but it’s far more difficult to be knocked off course by a few waves.

    Confucius say….

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yes, The Landlady was a great one, too. All the warm sweet coziness of the place coupled with the menacing something’s-not-right aura, stuffed dogs and what-not. Eery.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Lord of Lords Mahoney,

    I was referring more to universal human truth rather than individual personal truth – the finding out of what we, the human race truly are, & what we should be, what we should do, beyond temporary societal beliefs, is for me the great challenge. ‘Taking the red pill’ can be a part of that, in that it is a waking up to a realization that how one aspect of the world has been presented to you is in fact totally incorrect. The next logical step is to look at all the other parts of this fabricated world & to try wake up from them also.

    I know you know all this stuff already, just clarifying my earlier statement.

  • Abbot
  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Poor Kari!

    BSD wrote:

    The thing is, a lot of nerds tend to be avoidant, or have features of APD.

    Is this

    APD ≡ Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) ?

    Or was it

    APD ≡ Avoidant personality disorder (or anxious personality disorder) ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kari

      Ding Ding Ding! You got ROTC right. Not sure about APD…

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Poor Kari again ☹

    BSD wrote:

    Tall, good looking, a bit of a jerk, and ROTC.

    ROTC ≈ Reserve Officers’ Training Corps ?

  • Abbot

    Why isn’t this taught in high school sex ed class? Call it SATC Reality 101
    .
    http://www.wellsphere.com/relationships-sex-article/promiscuity-and-women-3-896/1246380
    .
    Women often complain that they want marriage but can’t find Mr. Right. In today’s dating environment, attractive, intelligent, successful women are seeing their biological clocks expire before they can find a husband. Even among those who do get married, divorce is rampant. How did committed husbands become so rare? Why is it that women are the ones pursuing commitment now? Women who desire marriage don’t realize that it is today’s promiscuous culture that has turned the odds against them.
    .
    Promiscuity vs. Marriage
    .
    Today’s promiscuous culture has allowed women to enjoy greater sexual freedom than ever before. Women can freely pursue their instinctual desires for love and lust in a way that was impossible under the monogamous system. However, there is a tradeoff. The more freely women pursue sex, the more difficult it becomes to find marriage.
    .
    There are several reasons why marriage is becoming less common in today’s culture. The most obvious is that when premarital sex is readily available, men lose one of the major motivations for marriage. ( There is No Longer Someone For Everyone has a discussion of men’s greater sex drive.) The monogamous system restricted male sexual desire so that women, by controlling access to sex, held a great deal of power to demand resources and commitment. Under the promiscuous system, that power is very much reduced.
    .
    Another consequence of the promiscuous system is that many women concentrate their attentions on a small number of very attractive men. Biology dictates that men can cycle through sex partners more frequently and for a longer part of their lifetimes than women can. (See There is No Longer Someone for Everyone ) This creates an imblance where a large number of women are sexually and emotionally connected to a small number of men. In this case, simple math dictates that few of those women can get married to the man with whom they’re having sex.
    .
    Another factor making things difficult for marriage-minded women are the kind of men they are instinctively programmed to pursue. Under today’s promiscuous system, women “follow their hearts” and seek out the kinds of sexually attractive men who pique their emotions. Women think that intense physical attraction is necessary for the beginning of a lifelong relationship. In reality, the opposite is true. The forces of evolution have made women physically and emotionally attracted to the very kinds of “jerks” and “players” that are the least likely to get married, and most likely to cheat if they do get married. (See The Rise of Players and the Decline of Providers .)
    .
    The Slippery Slope of Promiscuity
    .
    Once premarital sex and adultery are tolerated, women must become increasingly promiscuous in order to attract men. When a man chooses between two women, if all else is equal, he will take the woman who is more sexually available. Because of this, women competing for attractive men are caught in a downward spiral where they must compete amongst each other with increasing promiscuity. Since the invention of the pill and the advent of the sexual revolution, women have had to become consistently more sexual in their clothing and behavior. Women who attempt to dress modestly and practice restraint have difficulty attracting men from their more sexually available competition.
    .
    Another change in the current dating system is that women can no longer delay sex to obtain commitment. In the past, women seeking marriage delayed sex in order to determine whether their suitors wanted more than just a short-term sexual conquest. Men unwilling to wait would be rejected. In the promiscuous system, delaying sex is not possible because attractive men have so many other sexual options. A woman who tries to delay for long will soon find her man contested by other more willing women.
    .
    In the monogamous system, social stigma and fear of pregnancy prevented women from using sex to compete for male attention. In that system, it was men who competed for marriage on the terms dictated by women. Women wanted men who could prove commitment through chivalry and courtship. Because all women demanded the same treatment, and because there were no other sexual options, men were forced to comply.
    .
    Seeking Marriage Later
    .
    Because the pill now allows women to put off pregnancy and marriage, many women wait until their late 20’s to begin seriously searching for a marriage partner. Unfortunately, while these women feel pressure to settle down and marry, they still find themselves competing for male attention with younger, more promiscuous women. Younger women aren’t facing the pressures of the biological clock, and don’t demand commitment from men. This competition works against the women seeking marriage. Formerly promiscuous women who want to settle down as they get older must also contend with men’s aversion to their sexual experience. In the end, the same promiscuity and sexuality that a woman must use to attract desirable men for short-term relationships reduces her attractiveness as a potential marriage partner.
    .
    Men prefer women with less sexual experience because of the biology of maternal certainty and paternal uncertainty. When a woman has a child, she can be 100 percent sure the child is hers. Her husband has no such assurances. In fact, out of 280,000 blood tests done in 1999, 28 percent of the time, the man tested was not the father ( New York Times ). From an evolutionary standpoint, a man who spends a lifetime of his resources raising another man’s child is a genetic catastrophe, and men who are insensitive to the possibility of cuckoldry cannot survive long in the gene pool. The only way a man can be sure that a child is really his own is to make sure that his wife has not had sex with other men. This is the underlying reason why men prefer sexual inexperience in the women they marry. Men, particularly “provider” men who tend to have had fewer partners themselves, are less likely to consider a sexually experienced woman serious marriage material. (See David Buss, .)
    .
    Marriage and Sexual Morality
    .
    Under the monogamous system, there were many layers of laws, religious rules, parental pressures and social norms that forced women to seek out men who would be good long-term providers. Women who had sex without commitment made marriage more difficult for other women, and their promiscuity was stigmatized. Nowadays, the old system of morals and rules is largely gone, and women can freely pursue their sexual instincts. Unfortunately, those same instincts are driving women onto a never-ending treadmill of relationships without commitment.
    .
    Many of today’s women bought into the idea that they should freely exercise their sexual liberties. Many of those women also bought into the idea that they would be able to get married at the time and age of their choosing. As those women get older, they are finding that the rules of evolution and biology make promiscuity and marriage incompatible.
    .

  • Dogsquat

    In this instance, APD means Anti-social Personality Disorder or Avoidant Personality Disorder.

    I think.

    Maybe she meant to type out Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, and forgot the S. BSD might have been put off by her boyfriends lugging around large quantities of 25mm and 120mm ammunition. That stuff’s heavy, and it puts a damper on the day’s activities.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    The thing is, a lot of nerds tend to be avoidant, or have features of APD.

    Don’t listen to Dogsquat, Kari, he’s just pulling your leg. APD – as Dogsquat being medic obviously knows – stands for Atrocious Penile Discharge. And yes, this is a serious problem currently ravaging our precious nerd resource.

  • Abbot

    Sweet revenge for the promiscuity imbalance
    .
    http://gawker.com/5837632/college-guys-donating-sperm-are-modern+day-genghis-kahns
    .
    Who’s the man?
    Who’s the man!?
    yeah!!

  • Spinsterlicious

    Is it possible those girls just wanted a fun night out with the girls? I’m more curious to know why VJ spent so much time watching these women, listening to their conversation, judging their behavior. Wasn’t he out with his wife? Shouldn’t he have been paying more attention to her? He wasn’t bored, was he?

  • Dogsquat

    Lord George Gordon Byron said:

    this is a serious problem currently ravaging our precious nerd resource.

    Atrocious Penile?

    Wasn’t he an Etruscan general that got his ass kicked fighting the Carthaginians?

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com/ Byron

    Atrocious Penile? Wasn’t he an Etruscan general that got his ass kicked fighting the Carthaginians?

    He was, I believe the condition was named after him. He was known for his constantly pained expression & funny walk.

  • imnobody

    @Abbot
    .
    Thank you for your last message. This has been said once and again but it’s hard to find a more coherent and concise summary.
    .
    Yesterday, a good friend of mine asked me why she cannot make men to commit. I’m going to send her your message.

  • Tom

    But I also know some girls who’ve gotten busy with guys they knew were total douche bags, because they were “drunk” or the guy was “hot” or whatever reason they thought justified it.
    .
    Sort of the profile of females in the SMP generally. But how many times can you justify burying your dignity before it becomes part of your character to not have any sexually speaking?

    _____________________
    My Fiance wanted me to post this….Pretty typical of what happens to a lot of women…(especially page two)

    http://www.yourtango.com/experts/virginia-feingold-clark/where-are-all-good-men

  • Abbot

    Yesterday, a good friend of mine asked me why she cannot make men to commit. I’m going to send her your message.
    .
    Yes, getting this article out to misguided and behaviorally-confused women would be the best educational help you can provide. They will thank you often for the rest of their lives.
    .
    http://www.wellsphere.com/relationships-sex-article/promiscuity-and-women-3-896/1246380
    .

  • Rebekah

    Thanks for the comment above with the career tips. Have you ever written a post about this? I would appreciate reading it if you have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rebekah

      Thanks for the comment above with the career tips. Have you ever written a post about this? I would appreciate reading it if you have.

      I haven’t, though I’ve been thinking about it. I’ve been wanting to broaden the scope of the blog a bit, and “working” seems like a good category to add, along with cooking/eating. Thanks for the suggestion.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    - Do everything in your power to avoid reporting to a woman.

    My experience of female boss is not that bad.

    (Hmm. Now there is these buttons about html tags removed again. Of course these are not necessary, because these tags can be pasted from text which is under comment box.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      - Do everything in your power to avoid reporting to a woman.

      My experience of female boss is not that bad.

      Ha, that’s because you’re a man! My advice here was very specifically for women, especially young women.

      Re the comment box, I have removed some of the plugins because they were really slowing up load times and cluttering the database. I am moving to a new theme shortly and can hopefully restore at least some of these features.

      Comments are such an important part of HUS that I want it to be easy to leave them – but there’s a tradeoff in performance once you add too many plugins.