Below is a list of excuses that attempt to justify dishonesty or escape consequences. They’re usually deployed when one is caught cheating, or deliberately misleading someone about one’s intentions. They may be used by either sex.
Every single one has been reported to me by a real person. They’re all total and utter crap.
- It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.
- I didn’t know you cared that much, you could’ve fooled me.
- I was confused about what I wanted.
- I’m sorry you got mad.
- I figured it was don’t ask, don’t tell. Yeah you asked, but I never did, I’d rather not know, but that’s just me.
- I didn’t mean relationship the way you’re defining it.
- My ex was a really important part of my life for a long time, I’ll always have some feelings, it’s natural.
- I didn’t even know you guys were good friends.
- I felt super awkward, I didn’t know what to do.
- We slept in the same bed but we didn’t do anything, I swear. I just needed a place to crash, that’s it.
- I worry that you’re too good for me, and that you’ll dump me. I guess I got defensive and kinda freaked out.
- You never cheated on me? I find that hard to believe.
- My last relationship was really messed up. I admit I’m still dealing with that.
- I am so a good person! I just screwed up. Everybody screws up sometimes, or are you perfect?
- I don’t think I ever said that. I was just looking to have fun, so I don’t know why I would have said I wanted to date you.
- You’re going abroad next semester, I guess I was trying to adapt to that. It’s going to be really hard for me when you leave.
- I’m dealing with some issues you don’t know about right now. No, I don’t want to talk about them, I just need a little time to work sh*t out. (Dating new person within 48 hours.)
- It wasn’t cheating because we’d had a fight that night, and I figured we were broken up until I got your text the next morning.
- Whoa, you’re crazy!
- You’re freaking me out right now, you’re acting psycho.
- It’s no big deal, you’re just making drama for no reason.
- I was blackout, I swear. I’d never do anything like that sober.
- I don’t know why he/she said that, there’s nothing going on.
- Whoever told you that is crazy or jealous, don’t listen to them.
- I thought I wanted to be in a relationship with you, but after we hooked up I realized I didn’t.
- I don’t consider making out cheating.
- We’re just friends. Don’t you ever hang out with friends alone? Do I ask you about every single person I see you out with?
- She sat on my lap, what was I supposed to do? I didn’t want to be a jerk.
- He/she kissed me. I didn’t want to make a scene so I just went along for a little bit.
- I said I’d go to his weekend formal because he really, really needs a date. Don’t worry, I told him we won’t need privacy in the room.
- With graduation coming up, I freaked out about what it would mean to stay together. I needed to see if I really want to commit to you. Um, I guess I decided we should break up. (Dating new person within 48 hours.)
- I admit I handled it badly, but I don’t see what was so wrong.
- You know you would have cheated eventually, you’re just mad that I did it first.
- Everyone knows you put up with cheating before, now all of a sudden you have a higher standard? That’s not fair to me.
- I’ve been burned before. I’m sorry I took it out on you, but I don’t trust people very easily.
Judge people by their actions, and expect to be judged by others for your own.
Most of these should be dealbreakers. It does not matter whether the cheater is immature, damaged from childhood, mentally unstable, confused, emotionally scarred, misinformed, brainwashed by feminism, emasculated by feminism, slow on the uptake, drunk, jealous, horny or goofy.
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Unfortunately, you’ve only mapped the tip of the iceberg.
I’m sure that’s true. Let’s have everyone chime in with the worst excuses they’ve ever heard! Oh, I just thought of another one. A guy was hitting on the best friend of his gf while she was abroad. He was blatant about it, begged for a hookup, confessed a long-standing attraction, etc. He even told her that his gf just “doesn’t do it for me” in the sack. She rebuffed him and skyped with her friend to tell her what happened. His excuse?
“ I missed you so much, and being with her reminded me so much of you, that I got my wires all crossed and confused the two of you.”
The tragedy? His gf bought it.
This really doesn’t surprised. I’ve seen women go through all sorts of humiliations and mental gymnastics for the men they’re attracted to.
Anything for alpha.
It was certainly true in this case. I know the people involved, he’s a total player. By the time his gf had returned for the summer break, he was already in a relationship with someone new, which was a complete surprise to her. He’d been skyping and IM’ing the whole time telling her how much he missed her, etc.
They’re completely done now, but I know for a fact she hooked up with him a few times last fall. I worry about her ability to ever find a good man, I’ve seen her reject plenty of good guys and hold out for asshats.
Here we go again. If you’re wondering why women feel unwelcome here, it might be because the commenters keep talking about women as if they are systematically irrational creatures who need good, dominant men in order to save them from the horrors of the post-feminist SMP.
Why is it when a male acts irrational, he’s an outlying beta/sigma/omega male; but when a female acts irrational, she’s a Typical American Woman?
Gudenuf,
Doesn’t saying beta/sigma/omega classify the typical american male?
BTW, what is the definition of sigma here? Is it the same as Vox’s?
@ GudEnuf
“Women” don’t feel unwelcome here. YOU feel unwelcome here.
And I didn’t say one way or the other about the rationality of her behavior.
Is lying more of a beta thing or an alpha thing? Seems to me either one can do it. Morality and character are orthogonal to social dominance. The excuses probably look different, depending on if they are coming from a position of weakness or strength, but in either case and for either sex, these are not people you want to be spending time with.
Because the entire Western society is set up to cater for women acting irrationally and excuse their behaviours, while punishing men for everything.
Neither of those is excused, of course, but being attractive is apparently forgiveable.
A couple of guys in my circle are notorious cheaters, who also string along many girls. Yet they never lack female company, even with the good religious girls who would not give other guys a chance for the flimsiest excuses. That’s the power of preselection and being attractive.
And here’s a classic…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVNEp6hZE3g&feature=related
Stingray: “BTW, what is the definition of sigma here? Is it the same as Vox’s?”
I don’t know, I can’t keep track of all the Greek letters bloggers keep inventing.
108spirits: “A couple of guys in my circle are notorious cheaters, who also string along many girls. Yet they never lack female company, even with the good religious girls who would not give other guys a chance for the flimsiest excuses. That’s the power of preselection and being attractive.”
Attractive people get away with more than unattractive people. News at 11.
Have you noticed that men will put up with a lot more bullshit from a hot chick than a plain one?
dragnet: “Women” don’t feel unwelcome here. YOU feel unwelcome here.
Why does a website dedicated to helping young women find boyfriends consistently attract men who only want to disperse cynicism. Alexa says that most HUS visitors are female, but looking at the comments I see mostly males.
“Have you noticed that men will put up with a lot more bullshit from a hot chick than a plain one?”
Sure, but the kind of bullshit is very different. Many women will put up with (and still be attracted to) hot guys who are players and sleep around. Far fewer men will knowingly tolerate that sort of behavior from a hot chick.
Which is why that’s girls behavior isn’t necessarily ‘irrational’. Women, generally, find pre-selected men attractive, and women tolerate more bullshit from attractive men. Pre-selection is a far, far weaker attraction vector for men—ergo a girl sleeping around is a turn off to most guys.
This is not rocket science.
@ GudEnuf
I can’t speak for other male commenters, but I am not dispersing “cynicism”.
And frankly, I think the women reading this blog are lucky to be able to read what guys actually think. Turns out, that’s pretty important when it comes time to find that boyfriend.
The guy commenters here are a net-plus—even if what they say makes you feel uncomfortable.
And regarding the post, I think those excuses pretty much cover it. A few of them even overlap.
I don’t think so. Vox is a sigma, so that means sigmas are hot
I worry about her ability to ever find a good man, I’ve seen her reject plenty of good guys and hold out for asshats.
That statement does not make any sense.
By your own assessment, she has found the good guys and rejected them.
My advice: stop worrying about the girls and start worrying about the guys.
Enough with the good religious girls. Why do men find it admirable that other men succeed in corrupting religious girls? It’s Les Liaisons Dangereuses, and Valmont was a snake. In the good old days, religious girls got pregnant. The rate of premarital sex among the Pilgrims was 50%.
I have no problem with any man having a harem, keeping multiple women in rotation, etc. as long as he is open about it. The biggest slut in the world has as much right to be angry about being lied to as the most chaste virgin.
I’m not sure why a woman would knowingly get involved with a cheater, unless she doesn’t care about being cheated on, in which case there isn’t much deception involved. You can say they’re good, beautiful, the hottest of the hot, it doesn’t matter, because by definition they place very low value on themselves.
Only 35?!
On the top of my head
“I’m a man”
“Only gay men don’t cheat”
“I only placed the tip on her, that is no cheating”
“She means nothing to me, you are the one I love”
“I had sex with her, to you I make love”
“She forced me”
“I couldn’t say no, she looked so sad and depressed I though she will kill herself if I reject her”
“Are you insane I will never cheat on you, she is just a cousin”
“You are not woman enough for me”
And blah blah blah
I have no problem with any man having a harem, keeping multiple women in rotation, etc. as long as he is open about it.
My prediction: Men will start being open about keeping Harems when Girls start being open about their willingness to join them.
However, this will not happen.
Men are, basically, aware of their anti-social desires, while girls are, basically, unaware of their anti-social desires.
The guys here are a huge plus. I consider the male POV invaluable and informative. I also feel quite fond of most of the commenters here. Think of disagreements at HUS as squabbles around the dinner table. It’s rare for someone to storm out or slam the door. Some may want to reach for an extra glass of wine.
Sorry, that was indeed badly worded. What I should have said was, “I worry about her ability to ever wake up and start making good choices. She’s on the road to spinsterdom, and she’s ignoring all the warning signs: Dead End, Dangerous Curves.
I worry about good women and good men, as judged by their character.
@Stephenie
Oh good lord, that sounds like a Dominican list! I laughed out loud at the cousin excuse. I’d say the threatened suicide one or some variation is pretty common here, as well as some variation of “she forced me.” That reminds me of another excuse – the guy told his gf “She raped me, she’s bigger than I am!” The woman in question is rather large, which gave the gf pause.
Sigh. Women don’t want to believe the worst. Cue the hamsters.
@GudEnuf
Out of curiosity, I counted up the commenters by sex on the previous post – Defense Against the Dark Arts. There are 11 women, and 24 men. Several of the male comments were one-offs, but most of the women have stuck around. Definitely lopsided, but the female POV is represented pretty well.
“I don’t think so. Vox is a sigma, so that means sigmas are hot
”
Yeah, that’s why I wanted to clarify. I think there are even fewer sigmas than alphas.
OK. Let me try this again,
Followed by:
I am guessing that I am missing something here.
Who here deserves more of your attention and concern: the girl that rejects good guys for asshats, or the the rejected good guys?
Simply looking at the grand majority of posts on this blog I think that I know the answer.
“Look, my self actualized character was formed over 11 years through the repeated expression of embraced alpha-cock empowerment simply by uttering the word “yes” and you actually expect me to just turn that cheap valueless view of my sexuality off like that?”
I think one of the big takeaways for me in the past few months has been that stepping up and acting like an alpha often requires a certain level of character. It takes guts to stand by your word, or to end a relationship. That’s a level of courage and self-knowledge that seems to be lacking these days.
Some people abuse that, of course, but cultivating virtues like courage and true self-reliance can be alpha-fying.
Because the entire Western society is set up to cater for women acting irrationally and excuse their behaviours, while punishing men for everything.
That’s a bit of an exaggeration, but you have a point. It’s more extreme in the US. The legal culture here is pro-women to the point of deliberate bias. Women are treated like perpetual children, from the standpoint of their accountability. That assumption isn’t as common elsewhere.
Most of these should be dealbreakers. It does not matter whether the cheater is immature, damaged from childhood, mentally unstable, confused, emotionally scarred, misinformed, brainwashed by feminism, emasculated by feminism, slow on the uptake, drunk, jealous, horny or goofy.
—-
Cheating is cheating. The end.
@Some Handle
I am concerned for good women who are rejected by asshats because they don’t put out, and good guys who are rejected by women because they don’t bring high social dominance. Those two groups comprise the “have nots” in this SMP. Why don’t they get together?
It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind, and that’s fine. HUS might not be your cup of tea.
I am concerned for good women who are rejected by asshats
Again, by your own words, this was not a good woman. This was a girl that was rewarding the “asshats”. And this is who you are concerned about. Which is fine. You should be concerned for those that you want to.
HUS might not be your cup of tea.
I am pushing for a reason. This blog serves, mainly, to either help girls get off the alpha cock carousel or prevent “good” girls from getting on it in the first place.
So, I ask that question, “Who here deserves more of your attention and concern: the girl that rejects good guys for asshats, or the the rejected good guys?”, because I am curious to know if you see that as well.
This is a red herring in the current debate.
“Women are treated like perpetual children, from the standpoint of their accountability.”
.
Yet feminism supposedly promotes strength. But why not accountability? Are women just not predisposed as men to stand by their convictions no matter the outcome? Do they fall apart more readily when things go wrong? If so, that may the reason for centuries of protecting women from themselves. Just like children.
.
@Abbot
I don’t understand why you’re talking about feminism in this thread. It’s totally irrelevant. If you’re making the point that feminism made women more likely to cheat, I’m not really buying that. It’s made more women disinterested in commitment altogether.
Good list. Most of these sound rational, and a few sound narcissist (like, blaming you and putting the emphasis in you), so, most of these sound male.
In my experience when girls cheat they resolve to pure denial. So no excuses, just infinite circling and getting upset about the subject.
“It’s made more women disinterested in commitment altogether.”
.
Yes, and the result often is historically unprecedented years of “practice” easing in and out of “partnerships” and on average, at a higher rate then most men. When it comes time for a relationship, any person with the most “experience” may have more of a struggle to not slip into old habits.
.
Susan: “Out of curiosity, I counted up the commenters by sex on the previous post – Defense Against the Dark Arts. There are 11 women, and 24 men. Several of the male comments were one-offs, but most of the women have stuck around. Definitely lopsided, but the female POV is represented pretty well.”
Your Alexa page indicates about 60% of your viewers are female. By your own count, only 30% of commenters are female. That means men are 3.5 times as likely to comment as women!
Why do you think this is? Do you think the silent female majority has nothing to say? Or is possible that several male commenters have created an environment where women feel uncomfortable?
GudEnuf,
Well its obviously due to a female unfriendly environment and sexual harassment. The guys are so bitter and aggressive and demeaning here, and the ladies dont want to speak because they fear of being emotionally violated.
Or maybe they dont have anything to say.
GudEnuf,
I think it means men are 3.5 more prone to silence and repress women so they dont speak their minds. Fuck the Patriarchy, bro.
My favorite excuse was:
“Why would I be dumb enough to openly cheat? If I were cheating I’d just do it out in the open”.
surely being goofy is a legitimate excuse?
dragnet,
…..which almost makes it ok I guess for guys, but not girls, to sleep around…..
Mostly an amusing post. There are some great ones from the poly community: “we’re poly, she just doesn’t know it yet!”
Humorless Feminazi time!
Susan, did you really just say “she raped me” is a bullshit excuse for cheating? That’s not cool. Men can be raped too (just ask NSWATM’s entire comment section). Men can be raped by women. An erection is not consent, any more than lubrication is consent.
I mean, imagine the possible options:
Option A: Woman believes man, he’s telling the truth, she helps him heal from his rape (social support is amazingly important in keeping someone from developing PTSD after a rape).
Option B: Woman believes man, he isn’t telling the truth, they stay together another three or six months before he, being a cheating bastard, does something douchey enough to get dumped.
Option C: Woman doesn’t believe man, he isn’t telling the truth, cheating bastard is dumped.
Option D: Woman doesn’t believe man, he is telling the truth and you just compounded the trauma of his rape with the trauma of being disbelieved (not to mention losing a major source of emotional support).
I mean, would you tell a man whose girlfriend said she was raped to dump her because she’s a cheater?
Ozy: “An erection is not consent, any more than lubrication is consent.”
That reminds of Roosh’s terrible post today. He claims it’s impossible to rape a woman because women don’t produce enough lube when they’re raped.
Actually, our arousal patterns can be triggered without consent. It is even possible for both sexes to orgasm during rape, but it’s still rape.
An erection is no sign of anything.
““ I missed you so much, and being with her reminded me so much of you, that I got my wires all crossed and confused the two of you.””
I think we were talking about Roald Dahl here, one of his adult stories was “Switch Bitch” which involved two men wife-swapping for the night.
“Alexa says that most HUS visitors are female, but looking at the comments I see mostly males.”
Sounds like a repeat of the complaints that boys shout out answers in class while girls raise their hands and don’t get “heard.” (My answer to that was “don’t criminalize maleness, teach girls how to be assertive. No one will wait for you to raise your hand in the real world.”)
Susan, what is your male/female breakdown in terms of reader email? Could be that women are voicing privately while still being informed by the public discussion.
“Why don’t they get together?”
Don’t blame me…I’ve been asking for numbers all over these threads, but SayWhaat doesn’t want to bite.
I see the source of confusion. In this case I am concerned because I have known this girl since she was 13. She is a regular and avid reader of this blog, and I have counseled her many times. I am genuinely fond of her, and wish she would realize the absolute futility of her choices, in that they do not bring her any of the things she says she is looking for. I would ordinarily have little sympathy for women choosing these assclowns, and that is something you will find throughout my blog.
Anyone interested in the debate is welcome here, and my concern is that every reader or commenter is engaged by what I write. I write for young men and women who seek relationships. That includes people who’ve never been with the opposite sex, as well as people who have become jaded from hooking up. I don’t have much empathy for girls who keep doing the same stupid things even after I’ve given them advice. Nor do I have much concern for players. I also lose patience with those who complain endlessly and blame others instead of taking control of their own lives.
I’ve got all types reading here, and they are welcome. I’m interested in exchanging ideas and fostering communication between the sexes.
I was a lurker for a long while before I finally started commenting. The reason I held back, despite finding the discussions very interesting, was that I didn’t think my “foreign” perspectives and experiences would have any relevance to the target audience of young American women. (I’ve since figured out that HUS readers are a more international and diverse bunch than I originally thought.)
On another level, I’m not at all surprised that the majority of commenters are male. I first heard of HUS through John C. Wright’s blog, whose commenters are predominantly male. A little later, when I became a regular (and completely silent) reader of Vox Day’s blog, I just started coming over from his sidebar. These two gateways into HUS have made me think of Susan’s blog as an “outlier” in the Manosphere (an impression reinforced whenever I see HUS linked on the sidebar of a Game blog); so it makes sense to me that her male readers are also her more vocal ones.
Women may not chime in as often as they would if this were more of a “girls’ club,” but I think the fact that they’re getting more of the male perspective than they would on relationship blogs that essentially are “girls’ clubs” is a good thing.
@Ozy
I wasn’t saying otherwise. In this case, I know the “other woman” from my focus groups, and her report was one of his following her into her bedroom at 5 am. To be fair, in the middle of intercourse he pulled out and said, “I can’t do this,” then ran away as the sun came up into the deserted city streets. When his gf found out about it through friends of friends, she confronted hm and he claimed he’d had no choice.
I guess he deserves some credit for early withdrawal, but that’s up to her.
Bellita,
I found Susan from reading over at Vox Day’s as well. When I first starting reading any of these blogs I would never post, as I had a fear of being ripped up. Then I remembered that some of my most valuable lessons were from me saying completely inane and stupid things and then having either my husband or father telling me just how stupid I was being. Here’s the thing though. They always took the time to explain why, as long as I was willing to listen. (I think Vox posted something similar to this at Alpha Game, but didn’t take at as far as women willing to listen. I get the impression that most are not.) Anyway, I figured that since I learned so much from putting myself out there with my dad and husband I should suck it up and post elsewhere (over at Vox’s is the most intimidating and I never post on topics I know little about). I try to do so very carefully and figure that if I get ripped up, at least I sincerely tried to put some logical thought into it first, and if I am wrong I get to learn something valuable in the mean time.
I’ve learned a ton, and so far, very little ripping has been done.
90% female, 10% male. I think it’s pretty clear that most of the women on the comment threads are of the feisty sort.
I think there are a few things going on.
I think I’ve mentioned that my focus group women all read here, including the comment threads, but only one has ever joined the discussion. Yet when I see them they’ll speak with some familiarity about certain guys – they really like watching and listening to what the guys have to say. Some of these women have asked me specifically to write a post about such and such, so that they can find out what guys really think about it. They’re not seeking a debate, they’re seeking information and instruction.
Another thing is that it does take a thick skin to be the focus of a discussion, as Emma can attest. Guys interested in the manosphere are well versed in concepts that can be quite intimidating to women. Talk of the red pill, the truth about female sexuality, hamster wheels spinning, women cuckolding men, riding the alpha cock carousel, etc. are all rather intense subjects that come up frequently. There’s a “baptism by fire” element to all of this, and it can be difficult to navigate, especially if the commentariat doesn’t appear overly sympathetic.
Men are also more analytical and direct in their approach here (and everywhere). This is heightened by the fact that the male age range of regular commenters is about 20-40 or so, while the women tend to skew younger, with a few exceptions.
Finally, the men here are far more political than the women are. As you know, the most frequent search term bringing readers to HUS is “Why don’t I have a boyfriend?” The young woman who gets online with that question may not have much to say to the man who finds me via links at Vox Day’s or Dalrock. The women usually have a problem to be solved, rather than a general interest in the SMP – it’s the inverse with men.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
“No one will wait for you to raise your hand in the real world”
.
Its first come first serve. Keep up or shut up. Follow the natural leaders or stay home.
@Stingray
The main reason I’m silent on Vox Day is that I either already agree with him and don’t want to be mere “white noise” or just don’t understand what he’s saying! He has many commenters who say things I disagree with, and I suppose I could get into discussions with them instead, but most of the time I just read his stuff and don’t bother with the threads.
Susan’s threads are another story.
Clearly, the guys here are super winners at the Internets by making so many more comments. We women lose. Gosh darn!
@ Jess
I don’t think it’s wrong for girls to sleep around. It’s just that they should understand that it’s not consequence- or cost-free, no matter how much they (and I) wish it were so.
And we are so blessed to read what a bunch of the most vocal HUS and manosphere men think of women. Their advice surely leads to everlasting happiness and all the best decisions made in love. So blessed!
“just don’t understand what he’s saying! ”
No kidding! Though I have to say I am getting much better with the economic posts.
I agree with a lot of what he has to say as well. I like his style as he does not suffer fools, but will often respond to sincere questions in a sincere manner. I’ve learned a lot over there.
@ Susan
Because the “good girls” want social dominance, too.
Generally speaking, “sluts” & “good girls” are attracted to the same men. They don’t take up with the betas, because the betas don’t turn them on. The “good girls” have just decided to hold out for their alpha, rather than rolling the dice on a roll in the hay.
Their maturity and self-mastery is laudable. But it’s a tough road to ho, in a manner of speaking.
Generally speaking, the “good men” and “cads” are attracted to the same women. They don’t take up with the fatties and uggos, because those girls don’t turn them on. The “good men” have just decided to hold out for their hottie, rather than pumping and dumping all the time.
Their maturity and self-mastery is laudable, and also it’s so much better to be a man and have the moral high ground all the time.
Yes.
And also, so many things girls accept as articles of faith about men and relationships meet a sharp and sudden de-bunking at places like this…which can be difficult to take when your whole young life you believed the opposite.
I also think the tone should be more understanding at these kinds of blogs. Young women (and men) aren’t to the blame for their condition but they are nonetheless responsible for charting a better a path for themselves. In my view, this calls for understanding—less heat and more light.
Tone matters.
“I don’t think it’s wrong for girls to sleep around. It’s just that they should understand that it’s not consequence- or cost-free”
.
But alas, it would be if men did not have abundant options. Mix that infuriating knowledge with a sleep-around girl and you got yourself a soap box sex pozzy.
.
“Generally speaking, the “good men” and “cads” are attracted to the same women.”
.
They both seek women with similar historical wifely characteristics.
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I would ordinarily have little sympathy for women choosing these assclowns, and that is something you will find throughout my blog.
Actually, I would bet that you would have a lot of sympathy for these girls, if you knew them personally. And that is probably not a bad thing.
I write for young men and women who seek relationships.
Personally, I think that you write much more for young women than you do for guys. And, I am not saying that you shouldn’t, but, one of the points that I would probably make is that this blog was started much more out of interest in what your daughter might go through then what your son might go through (in the dating/sex/relationship/hook-up world…not in general).
You have definitely shifted your focus, somewhat, after becoming more aware of what young guys were going through (i.e. “Hey, Susan, we are not all getting laid…it is only those Rock-Stars/Baseball-Players/Alphas/Bad-boys that are. I;m a nice guy, why not me?!?!”).
I don’t have much empathy for girls who keep doing the same stupid things even after I’ve given them advice.
Again, I think you do…if you actually know them. “Hate the sin, not the sinner”, that sorta thing. Though, I imagine your patience wears thin after a while.
Nor do I have much concern for players.
This, I believe.
I also lose patience with those who complain endlessly and blame others instead of taking control of their own lives.
So, out of curiosity: for those lonely losers out there, would you recommend that they go to Roissy/Heartiste or Roosh to get some schoolin’? I mean, especially with Roissy, there are few sites out there that have been as informative as his has.
@Bellita
Vox Day is an uber intellectual. I’m actually in awe of the man, and I wouldn’t get into a pissing match with him for anything in the world.
@dragnet
I really appreciate this.
Clearly, the guys here are super winners at the Internets by making so many more comments. We women lose. Gosh darn!
Hi Plain Jane! Nobody missed you. Try inventing a new writing style once in a while.
Yes, I think this is right. Generally when I write my default audience is female, with the awareness that many males will read and comment. That seems to be the approach that works best for me, partly because I write what I know, and I don’t know the male perspective. I rely on my readers for that, and I often write posts inspired by men’s comments.
Also, it was girls who first turned to me for my thoughts. My son and his friends never would have considered doing so. I’ve adapted over time to the changing demographics of my audience, or I’ve tried to.
Yes. It’s quite difficult for me to hear stories of female “conquests” and not be a total scold. I listen, am careful not to give positive reinforcement, and when the woman crashes I try to point out what should be obvious. It has made a big difference with some women, none at all with others.
A year ago I would have screamed “No!” When my daughter interned in DC, I sat her down to show her pics of Roissy and Roosh, knowing how tight their Game is. I told her they are the big, bad wolves. But that in itself is testament to their power, no? So in all fairness, and because guys I pretty much adore swear by their blogs, I guess I’d have to say I’ve reached something like neutrality on that question. I openly admire them both for their intelligence and writing, but I also feel that they’ve compromised themselves in some important way. Their humanity, I mean. And I always like to plug Athol Kay, though a young guy is probably not going to be a regular at MMSL.
There are other plenty of good Game blogs by newer, younger guys, many of which can be found in my Blogroll.
Well its obviously due to a female unfriendly environment and sexual harassment. The guys are so bitter and aggressive and demeaning here, and the ladies dont want to speak because they fear of being emotionally violated.
Or maybe they dont have anything to say.
I think it means men are 3.5 more prone to silence and repress women so they dont speak their minds. Fuck the Patriarchy, bro.
Yohami + 1,000,000. Kinda funny to see white-knighting for anonymous non-commenters.
I’ll be the first to say there are a couple of guys that overstep to a degree. That said, this “hostile” environment nonsense is just that. Word of advice to women in general. Just as a man should and needs to learn about women’s subtle, indirect communication style for personal interaction a woman really should and needs to learn about a man’s blunt, direct communication style when it comes to active debate and discussion. Way too often in these discussions, women take personal offense when a guy simply makes a very direct point she doesn’t like, and then you get a white-knighter riding in to talk about an unfriendly environment.
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/the-medium-is-the-message/
While more than a few women like to wear this as a badge of some kind of superiority, it doesn’t necessarily mean that what they communicate is more important, or how they communicate it is more efficient, just that they have a greater capacity to understand nuances of communication better than do men. One of the easiest illustrations of this generational gender switch is to observe the communication methods of the “strong” women the media portray in popular fiction today. How do we know she’s a strong woman? The first cue is she communicates in an overt, information centered, masculine manner.
You don’t need to be psychic to understand women’s covert communication, you need to be observant.
Hint to the women. You’ll garner ALOT of respect and credibility from men in general if you can engage that direct, analytical style of communication minus the snark and sarcasm. This will be helpful in the workplace in interactions with men. There is a reason that for the most part Susan is deeply respected across many “manosphere” type blogs.
Susan: In my defense you didn’t put that in the original post… although I’m still skeeved out by the idea of “I was raped” as a cheating excuse.
GudEnuf: I think we should apply this standard of proof to all crimes Roosh might be a victim of. Sorry, dude, it doesn’t count as a mugging unless you have bruises all over your body from fighting back. What do you mean he might have had a gun? How do we know you’re not just making it up to ruin the guy’s life?
“You don’t need to be psychic to understand women’s covert communication, you need to be observant.”
This is only going to help men a bit. Men’s brains simply don’t read facial expressions and body language like a woman’s. You all need to be direct to communicate.
See the third paragraph here
My husband had this conversation a few years ago with me. In a nutshell, he said, “Don’t hint, don’t beat around the bush and don’t try to be subtle. Just tell me straight out what you need or I will NEVER get it.” It has made both of our lives so much easier. It makes posting on game blogs far safer as well ; )
This is only going to help men a bit. Men’s brains simply don’t read facial expressions and body language like a woman’s. You all need to be direct to communicate.
Not all of us.
Like most things in life, I believe it is a skill that can be cultivated and developed although I’m sure it will vary from guy to guy (Asbergery types are out of luck), but my GF is sometimes almost disturbed by how well I can read her facial expressions, vocal tone, and body language without her saying anything direct to me.
I think you’re right, but it’s very tough for many women to travel this distance. I’ll be the first to say that in some ways I am on the male side of the spectrum mentally. I’m no engineer, but am quite analytical by nature. I think that’s genetic, and also what I was rewarded for by my father, whom I always looked up to. He wanted me to “make it in a man’s world.” I’ve also said that I don’t feel very feminine. I’m not sure you can get it all in one package, at least not very often.
That said, I think the sexes have lost of a lot in the last couple of generations in terms of being able to communicate with one another. With so much emphasis on early sex, and no courtship rituals to speak of, we’ve lost a lot of our ability to converse. Personally, despite our occasional dust-ups, I feel rewarded every day by the intersex dialogue that happens here.
Honestly Susan, I would have to agree with the guy here. Women frequently put up with cheaters, but oftentimes that’s when they know the cheater is an alpha, and they will put up with it for the social validation of a high-status boyfriend. This phenomenon has been recorded and discussed many times.
If the woman suddenly gets mad about a guy cheating, when she’s put up with it before from high-status men, then she obviously thinks that this new guy is a lower-status man. How dare a lower status man cheat on her! It’s not fair! It breaks nature’s laws!
What about a woman who got burned with a guy who cheated on her, maybe allowed herself to be talked into not breaking up a couple of times, only to realize it was never going to stop. She then vowed never to let that happen again, and to select men specifically for the quality of faithfulness. Should she tolerate cheating in all future partners because she did once when she was 18?
This is actually similar to the price discrimination in sex idea, so I see where you’re coming from. I would say, though, that no cheater should expect to get away with it. Any woman or man who’s been cheated on has every right to end the relationship, regardless of what choices they made previously. Caveat emptor – don’t assume cheating will fly.
If the woman suddenly gets mad about a guy cheating, when she’s put up with it before from high-status men, then she obviously thinks that this new guy is a lower-status man. How dare a lower status man cheat on her! It’s not fair! It breaks nature’s laws!
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Typical Western women gear switching and why all good men should just and hit and run from this shit. She was ethically corrupt for not caring if the man’s other woman was hurt by his cheating with her. Huge moral red flag. Shallow and lacks empathy and clearly did not have a proper upbringing. Thats just for starters. She also seemed fine with herself sleeping around with the whim du jour and firmly believed, and god knows why, that when it was time for gear shifting, a man would be there for her and not consider how disturbing that behavior is, the wretch notwithstanding. In her mind, there clearly are two piles of men – those you go jungle with and those you go house hunting with. Feminists created a term for this – double standard. She lived one life and now wants another. Because she cannot continue that old life or knows that soon she will not be able to. Men – do you want a woman who is using you as the lever to switch gears? You should be ok with it if your Grandpa was. Was he? If not, do what he would have done…kick the crap off your shoe and walk straight to women in the other pile, the wife pile.
Sue,
Agreed. A man shouldn’t assume that he can get away with cheating on a girl because she tolerated it in a past relationship. However, he should probably look skeptically upon a relationship with a girl who’s previously sacrificed fidelity for social status, because it reflects something of her values and/or lack of self esteem… And, of course, the same goes for women dating guys who’ve sacrificed fidelity for status in their previous relationships with women.
People can grow and mature and learn to make better decisions as they gain in life experience, but a bit of skepticism is still good in such situations.
“Don’t blame me…I’ve been asking for numbers all over these threads, but SayWhaat doesn’t want to bite.”
Badger, you’ve completely charmed me with this. I gotta admit…I’m a Badger / SayWhaat ‘shipper. When I read the boards, I look for a connection…
If they get together, their couple moniker should be…SayBadger…
Mike C,
Wow. That really is impressive. Is it something you truly cultivated or is it more of a natural talent for you? I gotta think some men are just better at it than others, but that it could definitely be learned as well.
It’s funny you say that about your girlfriend. My husband and I have been married for 12 years and I sometimes literally frighten him a bit because I will know exactly what he is thinking without him saying a word. It drives him crazy.
Badger, you’ve completely charmed me with this. I gotta admit…I’m a Badger / SayWhaat ‘shipper. When I read the boards, I look for a connection…
If they get together, their couple moniker should be…SayBadger…
Aww you took the words out of my mouth. I totally noticed the asking for numbers and Saywhaat should totally give him a chance, at least a personal email to start the “peace talks”.
It’s funny you say that about your girlfriend. My husband and I have been married for 12 years and I sometimes literally frighten him a bit because I will know exactly what he is thinking without him saying a word. It drives him crazy.
I’m not in that level yet, but playing Dixit I always get what image was his…he is okay with it for now, but I’m not sure how he will take the mindreading in a few years down the line.
Abbot has a point. The idea of a woman “switching gears” still remains very offensive to many self-respecting men, and they won’t appreciate it if a woman was willing to sacrifice her relationship’s fidelity in exchange for the rush of status before, and isn’t now.
If I was dealing with such a woman, I would need to see clear evidence that she was in fact “burned”, as Susan put it, instead of being a status-crazed sorostitute.
Another crap reason:
IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!
[IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/ra29h3.jpg[/IMG]
http://tinypic.com/r/ra29h3/7
http://i52.tinypic.com/ra29h3.jpg
Hey, I’m K-Bar! Been browsing HUS for the last couple of months and love the discussion.
Worst excuse that I ever heard: “But he looked so lonely!” (those of us who understand preselection should find this one especially dubious).
To Anon comment #60. I like what you did there, but it was totally unnecessary. Dragnet wasn’t condemning sluts and nice girls for craving male dominance, he was simply stating a fact. I’m sure he would agree that most men don’t lust for ugly/fat women (though, barring extreme examples, every man has a different definition of “ugly” and “fat”).
I’d say the threatened suicide one or some variation is pretty common here
I will like to clarify that depending in the level of crazy this one can be actually legitimate. If the man/woman has a previous history of attempts of suicide and has access to a weapon, well another anecdote I know a neighbor that was sick of her military husband cheating and asked him for the divorce. The guy took his gun and told her that he was going to kill himself if she divorced him that she was the love of his life and so on. This was not the first time so she walked out, guy put a bullet on his head for real. He survived with a broken jaw and some brain damage, that was like 6 years ago, they are still together and had another baby.
Of course usually the woman threatens suicide for a relationship or him not ending the relationship, not a mere bang so that is pretty much the tell on the cheating, but the crazy is strong in my people, we had the proud tradition of killing ourselves over a bad break up for a long while in my country.
The idea of a woman “switching gears” still remains very offensive to many self-respecting men
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While single, non stud/thug/alpha men work at getting laid, getting a girlfriend, keeping her happy and later they work to attract a wife and work to keep her happy too. Its consistent. Its a continuum. They think that women are consistent as well. That projection thing. So when they encounter a gear shifter they feel like all that ass busting was for nothing, all that effort with the eye on the prize and this is what they get…deep disappointment. Gipped. Its a huge cultural disconnect. Obviously she was happy before getting used, not caring about it, loosing the connection between her sexuality and her dignity. Oh yeah, life changes, she changes, focus on her character, blah blah blah. Salvage talk. A whole generation of hollow zombie females looking for something to chew on. Once again gentlemen, choose wisely or grab your passport and go where choosing is near effortless.
Susan: “I am concerned for good women who are rejected by asshats because they don’t put out…”
Uh, shouldn’t that be a good thing?
I had the misfortune to be in a relationship with a Cluster B HPD girl (guys familiar with these creatures will feel a chill up the spine right now). It wasn’t for long before I figured out (thanks to my mentor, RIP) that she was crazy, but it was enough time for her to hit me with an invented rape sob story (to get my white knight blood boiling up), a fake pregnancy to go with the fake rape story and a suicide threat after I broke it up. She believed everything she said too, and if it weren’t for me double checking the dates on everything with her close friend (at the time, before she drove that one away too), I would’ve been sucked right into her web like a clueless Captain Save A Ho. Apparently she also cheated on me with her brother-in-law. She later explained to me it’s because of her being abused as a teenager, in a half drunken attempt to win me back, combined with flirting with every guy around to get me jealous. She didn’t get why that wasn’t a winning combination.
Those Cluster B chicks are the worst cheaters around.
As for the “men getting raped” thing, it happens with some frequency, I think about 10% of rapes feature a male victim. A lot of them are male-on-male rape, stuff like prison-bitching, teabagging a drunk guy, wtev, etc.
But in cases of female-on-male rape, what usually happens is that a whale entices a man to get very drunk, then takes advantage of his intoxication. Some PUAs have admitted to being raped in such a manner, though most cases remain unreported. Because think about it: even if you did get raped, you still technically had sex with a fatty. Why would you want to destroy your social image with that fact?
“I think you’re right, but it’s very tough for many women to travel this distance. ”
Funny how almost all female advice to men has to do with adapting to female ways of doing things – reading subtle signals, passing fitness tests and all the rest of it. (In fact, game itself has a lot of that in it, too.)
Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.
Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.
Badger-
“Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.”
you’ve just described the girls in my area. smh. and all women out her smoke a lot. major deal breaker for me. but no worries, i’ll be in NO next month.
Badger Badger Badger Badger said:
“Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.”
____________
That’s an interesting point, and one I agree with (NAWALT, of course).
Why, though, do you think that is? How did we get here? I don’t think one can point solely to feminism, since I know many women like this who’ve never wasted a calorie thinking about gender.
Is it biological in nature? Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior? Is it a result of an increasingly complex society with hugely more opportunities to communicate?
Totally fair and prudent.
@K-Bar
Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment!
Haha, that’s pretty bad, except there is the whole “brooding loner” thing that women love. The handsome guy who no one understands (good looks are essential in this case).
Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.
Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.
I approached my boyfriend. He was a close friend, we had chemistry…so I just went for it.
I’ve noticed most of friends expect guys to be telepathic. “Why doesn’t he know I like him!?” They often get frustrated when the guy they’re interested in isn’t aware of their interest. “He’s playing games, that’s why he hasn’t asked me out!” Uh…no, he just lacks the ability to mind-read!
I get so sick of their whining I end up acting as a wingman. “Dude, my friend likes you *points to friend*”
It’s like my friends aren’t even aware approaching a guy is an option.
@108
I just googled cluster B HPD. Wow, that sounds like a nightmare. Needy x’s 100. For the record, “I cheat because I was abused as a teenager” should be an immediate dealbreaker. It may be the truth, so no value judgment, but as a relationship prospect such a person is bad news, obviously. Using it as a fabrication for selfish behavior is obviously deeply unethical.
@Badger
I don’t disagree with you. Meeting men halfway (or even a bit more in the case of a beta) is good long-term strategy. It is particularly hard for women to accept. The alpha/beta paradigm works here – the more sexually aggressive women don’t hesitate to hit on the men they want, while the more beta females are bummed that the SMP no longer meets their needs. They were raised with the mindset that men display and women select. Even if they want to break out of that mold, it’s difficult because of the risk of rejection that many are loathe to assume.
@Badger and Dogsquat
Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.
Why, though, do you think that is?
I don’t know how typical you Manosphere men are, but I asked a man I know in real life the question, “I really like this guy and want him to know that if he wants to make a move, I won’t shoot him down. How do I do that?”
These are the exact words of his reply:
“It’s difficult to be in that position. Some men are just dense, and some men (many men, actually) fear an assertive woman. For me, if a woman seems too interested it can be a turn-off, or at least cheapen her somewhat in my eyes. So, not easy. Just create situations where he can easily show interest, without pressuring him, I guess. I dunno. I’m always the one to show interest and take risks with girls. I’m not an expert on getting the other person to make a move.”
I don’t know whether I just read him wrongly, but his advice seemed to be that I shouldn’t be direct. And he didn’t seem to mind that he’s always the one showing interest and taking risks.
Dogsquat and Badger,
I have some thoughts on that, but I am only on my first cup of coffee so please bear with me. First of all, I am much like Susan and have worked hard to travel the distance to better communicate with men, but I think part of this I was born with. I was a huge tomboy. I like it much better on this side of things. It if far less confusing and straightforward.
Anyway, as to this: “Funny how almost all female advice to men has to do with adapting to female ways of doing things – reading subtle signals, passing fitness tests and all the rest of it. (In fact, game itself has a lot of that in it, too.)”
Women don’t need to learn to adapt to men in communication, because men are not really that attracted to it. You are attracted to how we look. So, we learn to look pretty and then men typically do the rest.
It seems to me this is only getting worse as well. We are actually going in the opposite direction and losing more of the ability to communicate with you. We used to have to learn to use our feminine wiles, to be demure on top of being beautiful. Now, all women have to do is dress trashy, show a lot of leg and cleavage and they are golden. There is no need for much communication beyond that so most don’t bother or are ignorant that there is even a better way to communicate beyond that. It’s sad really.
have to learn to use our feminine wiles, to be demure on top of being beautiful.
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To qualify for the wife pile
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all women have to do is dress trashy, show a lot of leg and cleavage and they are golden.
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To qualify for the non wife pile, solely
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The male gaze, 1949. Nothing has changed. Its a two-pile system.
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Abbot,
I fully agree. However, doesn’t it seem that the second pile is FAR larger now than it was in 1949 and that the first pile is getting woefully smaller? That is a big part of the point I was trying to make.
doesn’t it seem that the second pile is FAR larger now than it was in 1949 and that the first pile is getting woefully smaller?
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Yes it seems to be, depending on where you’re standing. There is direct correlation with the state of parenting, nurturing of daughters and disintegration of the family unit. What is the primary geographic location of this correlation and what self-serving group has been and is the most vocal advocate of family disunity? Should men accept the weeds or stand their ground and only pursue beautiful flowers? The battle really is over what defines “wife material” and who gets to decide those characteristics.
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I’m a dance instructor in partner dancing. Man leads, woman follows – that’s the default. Often you’d get the girls bitching about the guys not leading well enough, and occasionally guys bitching about the reverse. One perfect way to cure that is to do role reversals for a lesson or two: getting the guys to follow, and the girls to lead. It doesn’t make the girls any better at leading or wanting to lead (just the opposite), and vice versa, but it does make them appreciate & understand what the other side have to do, and stick to performing well in their given role while helping the other side do theirs.
Same thing in dating. I don’t expect or even want the girl to initiate or lead it, but I’d expect her to play her feminine role well, which means making it easy for me to lead and perform my role. This “making it easy” part is what’s gone missing with modern young women. They are not doing their part of the dance, and usually they are not dancing at all nor even realise there is a dance going on. This lost feminine art can be observed in the old classic movies if you’re curious.
On being feminine, I always get a confused response from the girls I train at dancing when I tell them they need to be more feminine in their part of the dance movement. They have no clue how to be so, some told me they are not girly girls so they can’t do it. Wrong, it has nothing to do with being girly… I find it pretty amusing that a hairy meathead guy like me has to teach a bunch of pretty young girls how to be feminine in dancing…
Of course they’re loathe to assume it. As are many men. Which is part of the reason why guys who get the balls to run game are so successful. I’m fairly new to game–so I know that my success isn’t due to any expertise. More likely, it’s just the fact that I’m putting myself out there, risking rejection–something most people are unwilling to do.
Of course, guys who are willing to risk rejection come off as more confident, but that’s not the only reason they’re successful. They make things easier on women. If a woman is faced with two guys, one who screams long-term potential but doesn’t initiate and the other who merely seems a bit fun but is willing to take the risk, she’s more likely to get with the latter, if only because she doesn’t have to put herself on the line for him. She may pine for the former, but, ruled by the same fears as the guy who won’t initiate, she chooses the gamer.
There’s a certain type of girls – usually Cluster B, but not all – who are quick to inform the guy they’re dating or just got into a relationship with that they were sexually abused. More often than not, this is a lie (they might have been abused, but the particular abuse they brought up is often made up and tailored for the guy) designed to evoke the guy’s inner White Knight. They live off the drama created by the guy’s White Knight rage and inflamed protective instinct. Nice guys – particularly the ones who have never learned to tame their inner White Knight – fall prey to those Cluster B emotion vampires easily. I would have too, if it hadn’t been for my mentor who warned me about them in advance, and my dad who told me to double check the facts before getting further emotionally involved.
Many guys who found the Game community were victims of one of those nightmare creatures. When they switch on their charms, they are the perfect feminine girlfriends, with the crazy addictive sex as part of the package. The guys who got in too deep often exhibit signs of PTSD afterwards.
If you ever want to warn your young men off the bad women, make sure you educate them on those emotion vampires – BPD and HPD. The male version is also a Cluster B, and the ever popular sociopath that you’ve warned young women about (Antisocial PD, Narcissistic PD). Cluster Bs are functioning disorders, so they don’t appear like the typical mentally ill to others, which is why they are particularly dangerous.
I’m not so sure this is true. Granted, men like legs and cleavage, and even a nice round butt and a girl that can sway her hips when walking. We like long luscious hair and full pouty lips.
However, and the following applied to me back when I was seeking out relationships and even now that I’m avoiding commitment altogether: there’s something compelling and extremely attractive about a woman you can get lost in conversation with. Flirty but not slutty, engaging but not overbearing, intelligent without being condescending. If ever I were going to find myself in a relationship against my better judgment, it would be conversation–not cleavage–that would charm me out of my lair.
@108spirits
I find it pretty amusing that a hairy meathead guy like me has to teach a bunch of pretty young girls how to be feminine in dancing…
How’s this for amusing? Take away “dancing” and write “dating,” and you’ll have pretty much described what many of Susan’s female readers are getting out of this blog, whether or not they join the discussion.
The problem with being direct with a shy guy is that odds are he’s so insecure about his ability to attract women that he’d 2nd guess his response to your display of interest. What if he does something wrong and it turns you off immediately? He feels unprepared for the enormous amount of pressure.
So what’s the answer: persistence? How do you know if a guy is choking or just not interested? I’m not sure exactly.
Stingray,
You are attracted to how we look. So, we learn to look pretty and then men typically do the rest.
The average woman has gotten much, much fatter over the years, so that can’t be true.
(I understand that men have gotten fatter as well, but we are not claiming to be the pretty ones.)
I think that if girls are going to initiate with a shy beta guy type, they need to have some comfort building strategies in place.
Bellita,
For guys with confidence with women, initiating things is kind of exciting. When I was much younger though, I placed way too much value on what the girls i liked thought of me. The fear was that every act, every word and gesture was being judged by the girl I liked. If I sensed that a girl liked me, I’d wonder why, and then worry that the next minute I’d say or do something that would “break the spell.”
My frame of mind was that I was under scrutiny and judgment. I would imagine that a successful frame change to put guys like that at ease would be to show them that you value you their judgments about you.
I would have to go with large cities for geographic locations and feminists for the disunity.
Personal choice.
Again, it’s personal choice. She will be your wife so you decide the characteristics. You have two pools to choose from and I find it scary that typical wife material is dying away.
I don’t disagree with this. My point is that using cleavage and showing lots of skin is getting women the alphas for at least a night maybe even a couple of weeks. A lot of their friends are telling this how great this is for them and then they just move around on the carousel. By the time they are ready to settle and need the communication skills you are talking about, it is either too late because they are not as attractive any more (getting old), men don’t want women with histories like this, or they are beyond the ability or remain unwilling to learn these skills. Skin got them laid and many thought this was all they needed. In my (admitted limited) experience, it is the girls who don’t show as much skin who develop the communication skills you speak of and tend to be better LTR material.
I would have to go with large cities for geographic locations and feminists for the disunity.
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Both entirely avoidable along with their influences. Women there are trapped in their self created prison seeking some elusive personal satisfaction. Men, conversely, are free to leave to find theirs.
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You have two pools to choose from and I find it scary that typical wife material is dying away.
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or given away and mostly in those aforementioned feminism-ruined cities. Only scary for them.
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Ok, yes. They have gotten fatter. So this makes me wonder. Are the fatter and less attractive girls better at communicating verbally with men because they have to rely on that more?
I still think that the attractive girls just don’t bother to learn the skills Badger is talking about because they have no need to. Men are attracted to them because of the way they look and they just don’t bother to learn anything beyond that. Then when they want to settle they are more likely to be screwed because their looks are fading.
Abott,
I don’t disagree with a thing you are saying. I think that the men should go where they want to find what they want. ONS’s or LTR’s.
My brain is addled with a thousand different things this morning. I was addressing women’s lack of communication skills with men. Did I miss something else that you are discussing here?
On Badger/SayWhaat: that reminds me!
SayWhaat maintains she’s never turned down a date or rejected a friendly advance. But she’s clearly dodged Badger’s attempts to get her number.
So what’s going on? Did you just make your first rejection? Or did you reject him without realizing it?
In general terms: possibly.
In definite terms: I doubt it.
Because if they really were better at communicating, they would know damn well to lose the extra fat, or, better yet, not get fat in the first place.
And, no, I am not being sarcastic.
@ Susan
The guy in question was harldy a loner. However, he had a quiet confidence about him and an air of mystery. I don’t think that women pine for true loners (men who eschew friendship), but rather mysterious bad asses who look like they can fend for themselves. Sigmas if you will.
As for cluster b’s, they have nothing on bipolar chicks. My cousin and I both dated one and got burned in a remarkably similar fashion. Constant need for attention, flirtatiousness with strangers, hot/cold, pet names for inanimate objects, and a grand finale break up more unsettling than the latest David Lynch production. Think of Kate Winslet’s character from Eternal Sunshine but with an extra helping of bitchiness and annoying quirks.
hardly
Badger may want to consider playing up any latent hipster tendencies.
Yup that sounds like dear old Mom.
I try to do so very carefully and figure that if I get ripped up, at least I sincerely tried to put some logical thought into it first, and if I am wrong I get to learn something valuable in the mean time. I’ve learned a ton, and so far, very little ripping has been done.
I’m glad you feel it’s been worth it. But don’t fear the ripper! The fastest way to improve your knowledge base and understanding of an issue is to get substantively ripped. For example, I estimate that when I started doing martial arts, I got my ass seriously kicked – by which I mean I was hit hard enough to be knocked down – around 150 times before I became a fighter that the hard guys in the dojo took seriously. Iron requires iron to sharpen it, soft and gentle caresses won’t do. That being said….
The main reason I’m silent on Vox Day is that I either already agree with him and don’t want to be mere “white noise” or just don’t understand what he’s saying!
I congratulate you on the white noise avoidance, but if you don’t understand something, please feel free to simply ask. There is a comprehensive difference between an honest question and a challenge, and I’m not going to humiliate anyone over the former. And even if my explanation doesn’t appear to make any sense, usually there is someone there who can explain the explanation.
I wouldn’t get into a pissing match with him for anything in the world.
Perish the thought! I think far too highly of what you have created here to even think of soiling it with my excess fluids.
Oh, and as for Sigmas, they are much more rare than Alphas, and I am increasingly coming to suspect that they are what happens when an Omega finally figures out the human race and goes directly to Alpha. Hence their eccentricities and absence of social controls.
@Stingray
I always felt there is a parallel between gentlemen clubs and the SMP (it’s a test lab for gender studies). Having spent many years working door on clubs I can say that the girl who communicates best makes the best money. It is all about the ability to sustain the illusion of interest. (For the subconscious, illusion is the same thing as reality)
As they say in the business there is two ways to make money, with your body or with your mouth. Sadly there is a rising trend of women (in and out of the clubs) that seem to think to generate interest, and subsequent maximum benefit, the body is sufficient. I’ve seen gorgeous women sit down next to a customer in a huff and expect him to roll over. I’ve seen average or below average women walk up and engage him and by the end of the night have the contents of his entire wallet (plus credit advances).
As to whether fatter girls are better at the art of the tongue because they have to rely on it more? Sadly, no. A strong desire to learn is the most important thing to getting good at conversation. Frankly, most women I interact with on a daily basis don’t even see a need to be an active partner in conversations let alone learn how to initiate it. This is regardless of their other motives (such as financial gain), desire for boyfriends, or goals.
Some Handle,
Yeah, but here’s the thing. So many people are communicating to them that “you are pretty just the way you are.” It’s more like selective listening.
No argument here.
Oh, there was some university study or other which suggested that women are more likely to be offended and have a lower threshold of behaviour they will consider to be ‘bad’. Men, on the other hand, will say what they want directly because they are not as cautious or even aware of offending others. So, couple that with the fact that a direct woman is often misconstrued as being aggressive or ‘bolshy’ + the fact that women genuinely fear social alienation, and it’s no wonder they choose to play it safe in subtlety. Rejection is probably the number one
Clicky: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=women-apologize-more-frequently-tha-10-09-25
http://cogsciblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/women-more-likely-than-men-to-feel-they-have-done-wrong-study-finds/
Personally, I don’t see the benefit of skirting around a subject much but for deference’s sake, you kinda have no choice. With most girls, I have to tread a line or hold back a little in case I upset someone by accident. E.g, if an overweight girl asks me whether she needs to lose a few pounds, my instinct is to say “yep, come gym with me” , but saying that to her would make me look like the most callous cow that ever lived to other women, even *if* they are thinking the same thing. I hate girl politics. ¬_¬
The worst excuse for cheating that I’ve seen was in the 2001 film “Baby Boy” with that Snoop Dogg guy in it. It’s kinda old but it was on TV recently. Sorry about the swearwords, they’re not mine! =D
Yvette: Jody, I know you love me. I also know you fuck other girls. I don’t like it, but I know you. So just be real with me. Man, you gone be honest or what?
Jody: If you can take it. You’re starting to get on my nerves with this shit.
Yvette: I’m getting on your nerves? And you’re the one fucking around. You get with any of them girls you sell dresses to?
Jody: A few. There. You feel better now? I love you, girl. You got my son and you probably gone be my wife. You want me to be honest?
Yvette: Yeah, I do.
Jody: You’re my woman. Them other ho’s is tricks. I make love to you, I want to be with you, but I fuck other females occasionally. I don’t know why, I just do. That’s the situation. You feel better now? That’s some honesty for yo ass. Deal with it. I love you enough to be honest.
Yvette: Jody, If you loved me, you wouldn’t lie to me all the time. Move!
Jody: Hold on. You got it all twisted up! I lie ’cause I do love you. Being honest would mean I don’t give a fuck. Out on the street, I tell the ho’s the truth. I lie to you because I care about your feelings.
Charming!
“Badger may want to consider playing up any latent hipster tendencies.”
You mean I haven’t yet mentioned my large collection of leather belts and satchels?
Isabel,
Girl politics are really hard to navigate. I figured this out VERY young and have had few women friends because of it. Whenever we go to some get together and the men and women separate, I am constantly putting my foot in my mouth because I speak to them like I do men. These days, what this usually means, is that I sit there with my mouth shut so I don’t offend. I hate these parties and usually try to find my way to the men.
I can’t tell you how many girls I have known that have said they have very few, if any, girl friends.
One girl (very sweet and very, very smart) said that she was, basically, a misogynist. So, I asked her, “So, do wish that you had been born a guy instead of a girl?”. She replied, (I will never forget her answer) “God No! Because then I would have to put up with their insane behavior. As a girl, I get to be the crazy one.”
I always thought that was interesting.
“Why, though, do you think that is? How did we get here? I don’t think one can point solely to feminism, since I know many women like this who’ve never wasted a calorie thinking about gender.”
Feminism in one form or another has infected and infested almost every corner of society, but I think feminism is a red herring in this case. The problem is narcissism and our consumerist society, which programs us to seek short-term thrills and to think of ourselves as special snowflakes.
In young women, this manifests as hyper-selectivity, overvaluing themselves in the sexual market, and rationalizing their own lack of action, their refusal to do uncomfortable but necessary work to get what they want, as a projection that men aren’t “manning up” or that they shouldn’t have to do it because they’re so awesome, everyone should change to accommodate them.
“Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior?”
Obviously not today, since these women aren’t getting any dates or relationships.
Danny,
“you’ve just described the girls in my area. smh. and all women out her smoke a lot.”
LOL, nice non sequitur.
BF,
“I approached my boyfriend. He was a close friend, we had chemistry…so I just went for it.”
Good for you – see ladies, her (mild) risk-taking yielded a good outcome!
“I’ve noticed most of friends expect guys to be telepathic. “Why doesn’t he know I like him!?” They often get frustrated when the guy they’re interested in isn’t aware of their interest. “He’s playing games, that’s why he hasn’t asked me out!” Uh…no, he just lacks the ability to mind-read!”
Usually guys are just as freewheeling and confused as the girls:
http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/game-plan/
“Even if they want to break out of that mold, it’s difficult because of the risk of rejection that many are loathe to assume.”
+1 to Jesus’ response. It’s just like in work life – they are going to have to get over themselves and accept that life has the risk of mild, transient discomfort. As we budding gamers know, it’s easier to take rejection early than to let anxiety build up. It’s just wild that young women will seven ways to Sunday assert they are equal to men, should have all the same opportunities, etc, but the idea of opening a man with something as simple as “hi, how are you?” (which is usually all it would take) is unacceptably threatening.
Stingray,
“Women don’t need to learn to adapt to men in communication, because men are not really that attracted to it. You are attracted to how we look. So, we learn to look pretty and then men typically do the rest. ”
This is a breathtaking statement. It has nothing to do with attraction. Yes, they absolutely do need to learn it. One of the absurdly common complaints from women is that they can’t read their men. “How do I know if he likes me? What is he thinking? Why does he do things the way he does?” Thing is, it’s easy to learn if you throw away the idea that men are defective women. If they plan to have successful relationships, women absolutely need to pick up their understanding of male communication (both to understand his and to better communicate with him by using his own style), instead of insulating themselves in gynonormative cocoons and stomping their feet that “men are so clueless!”
To put it more bluntly, so how’s that “men typically do the rest” working out for the collective female horde? Not well at all, if what’s being written at HUS, the Frisky and even Jezebel is to be believed.
Jesus,
“I think that if girls are going to initiate with a shy beta guy type, they need to have some comfort building strategies in place.”
Read Susan’s wistful thread about ‘Casey’ – an extroverted, alpha-dating (which all but certainly means riding the carousel to some degree) chick tries to pick up a beta guy, with predictably disastrous results. It would be fairly funny if (a) it wasn’t real people and (b) it didn’t cause sympathetic pangs of pain in the men who have been in that situation *raises hand*.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/09/20/relationshipstrategies/i-found-a-great-beta-guy-but-hes-ruining-his-own-game/
Some Handle,
That is absolutely hysterical! Did she at least try not to be crazy, though?
I disagree. The pimps and ho’s may not have as many long-term monogamous “Two cats in the yard” relationships as your average suburban accountant, but, they are having, in general, more children (and at a younger age) than the average Jane and Joe.
They are out breeding us.
@ Stingray
Noooo! *Darth Vader voice*
Don’t avoid us and join the dark side! I know some women are too bloody frustrating to even share a room with but don’t let it colour your perceptions. Just just chalk them up as truth-haters and make friends with women who find your outbursts more amusing than offensive, rare as they may be. Most of the times, like you, I don’t even say anything mean (intentionally) but I always end up getting in trouble for something or other.
Ah well. No loss. I know whether I’ll get along with a girl as soon as I meet her anyway. When I met my best friend for the first time, we finished the day as though we knew each other for a lifetime. We clicked almost instantly. My own cousins, however, came to visit us for three weeks once and not a single word was spoken between us during their entire stay. I remember them giving me some serious side-eye and relentless negging on the first night. In my own kitchen no less. ¬_¬
Women definitely need to be more direct and less insecure and over-analytical about trivial, social situations.
I can sympathise with her a little but more in a ‘I dislike them for their own good way’. I would bet she was bullied for being both smart and pretty which led her to become a mini-misogynist in the first place. The thing with women in groups is that they will surround and verbally bully the crap out of anything that is remotely threatening or non-conformist. That is why the prettiest girls and the ugliest girls will have the shoddiest self-esteem possible whilst the plain janes swan around with egos the size of a small plane.
A female misogynist is very unhealthy. I know because I was one. Without the ability to form trusting and mutually respectful friendships with females, I was also without the ability to form a healthy relationship with a man.
It’s easy to talk to both men and women when you’re similarly intelligent and emotionally balanced. If a woman has trouble with female friendships, then she is either trouble herself (choosing to be the “crazy one”) or is too far outside the norm to form good bonds.
I cherish every single female bond I have, all the more so because I’m happily married and am completely content with having one man as my best friend for life, and my girl friends as my support and mentors for as long as they choose to be in my life.
Badger,
I get the feeling I didn’t make myself very clear. I bemoan the fact that women don’t learn how to communicate as well. I agree with what you said and am offering my opinion as to why they feel they don’t need to learn more.
What initially attracts a man is how a woman looks. If she learns to keep herself pretty a woman will assume that that will be enough to get what she wants from a man. . . attention. So in her mind, since she is going home with these men and not having to learn to communicate, why bother? Her attractiveness is doing it all for her.
Often times, by the time a woman decides she does want to have a successful relationship she hasn’t figured out any communication skills and, obviously the “men typically do the rest” isn’t working out for them at all. But it’s hard to get past that when the men were doing it all when they were only counting on their looks.
Badger said:
Yes, they absolutely do need to learn it.
@ Susan
Sorry to hear about your mother. I couldn’t imagine growing up with the behaviors that I described (though it apparently didn’t stop you from becoming an awesome blogger).
Being a cynical beta with Aspergers, I figured that me and bipolar chick would have made a charming couple. Turns out that acidic personalities do not neutralize each other. The experience wasn’t all crap, however, as it led me to the gameosphere. I still remember the day when I stumbled upon a little blog called Citizen’s Renegade. That first dose of red pill sure hurt like hell, though.
Ahh, bugger, I messed up the blockquote above. Let me try again . . .
Badger said, “Yes, they absolutely do need to learn it.”
My response:
If they need to learn it, why are they so successful on the carousel with out it?
Oh and I’m not Plain Jane, whoever she is. I just don’t feel any need to try to please a bunch of guys on a blog. The more you hate on women en masse, the less attractive it makes you. I’m simply mocking what you boys say to make you see how your own behavior is unattractive.
Stingray,
Do you mean the cock carousel? girls dont need great communication skills to succeed there
Isabel,
I have women that I get along with very well and can spend time with but I am ALWAYS wary of what I say and keep the conversation somewhat vapid. I do spend some time with these woman and enjoy the company, but I cannot do it for great lengths of time. I lose patience and get bored. That’s usually when I go seek out the men.
I have one very good woman *friend* (a true friend, someone I can count on for almost anything) but she is sometimes very hard to be with as she treats her husband like crap. He is beta in every way and bends over backwards for her. In turn, she walks all over him. The more I see her do this, the more I have a difficult time squaring our friendship in my head as she treats me better than her own husband. It’s very hard for me and if I said anything, I am not sure what she would do. I have been trying to come up with a way to get her husband Athol’s book without stirring anything up that is really none of my business.
Yohami,
Yep, that is exactly what I mean.
Being able to communicate well with a man in the direct manly style doesn’t mean much by itself. I know because I grew up talking great with guys and had quite a few fall in love with me due to the conversations. But I was still terrible relationship material.
To be a good gf/wife there are other traits needed. Is she also wise, mature, moral, empathic, kind, and emotionally balanced? Is she self-respecting, other-respecting, willing to compromise, has a healthy ego, can set good boundaries, and has good intentions toward others? Does she take responsibility for her own actions, does she recognize her own flaws and works to fix them, and will she delay gratification of the moment for a goal down the road?
There’s more, but this is a good start. A woman who just knows how to “work” a man and talks a good talk in addition to looking good can be as terrible if not worse. Personality is more than just conversation skills — narcissistic charmers have that in spades but often leave a trail of destruction. If she tries to meet you half-way and has all the aforementiond good traits, but she’s not so great at talking direct manly talk, it doesn’t make her bad. Get your advice-dispensing straight, boys.
That really is priceless.
It’s all about subtext and though I can do it, I dislike it intensely. I’ve been rereading The Fountainhead. What I wouldn’t give to go through life like Howard Roark.
Feminism in one form or another has infected and infested almost every corner of society, but I think feminism is a red herring in this case. The problem is narcissism and our consumerist society, which programs us to seek short-term thrills and to think of ourselves as special snowflakes.
I believe feminism is like the foundation on the house of modern SMP. If we have started the consumerism and narcissism age with women still needing men’s resources from a young age, this wouldn’t had manifested so much in rejecting every single men that is not perfect and despise him. They would had probably adapted quickly to select the best possible male they could get before their looks fade and won’t be cheating willy nilly for fear of losing their “natural resource”, YMMV.
The thing with women in groups is that they will surround and verbally bully the crap out of anything that is remotely threatening or non-conformist. That is why the prettiest girls and the ugliest girls will have the shoddiest self-esteem possible whilst the plain janes swan around with egos the size of a small plane.
This is a good take, but I’m still curious about why if you learned this very young you didn’t mastered the art of looking not threatening. I learned that and now I don’t have any issues with women at all, I get along very well with both genders at this point. Why do you think you have the opposite effect to this universal truth?
I guess she doesn’t have penis envy. I’d have a harder time making that call.
Stephanie,
I can do it, and I can do it quite well, but it is exhausting for me. And every once in a while I slip and offend someone, usually with something totally benign in my mind. Most of the time, this is why I sit quietly and listen, or just go where I am most comfortable, with the guys.
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