35 Crap Excuses for Lying and Cheating

September 8, 2011 412 Comments

Below is a list of excuses that attempt to justify dishonesty or escape consequences. They’re usually deployed when one is caught cheating, or deliberately misleading someone about one’s intentions. They may be used by either sex.

Every single one has been reported to me by a real person. They’re all total and utter crap.

  1. It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.
  2. I didn’t know you cared that much, you could’ve fooled me.
  3. I was confused about what I wanted.
  4. I’m sorry you got mad.
  5. I figured it was don’t ask, don’t tell. Yeah you asked, but I never did, I’d rather not know, but that’s just me.
  6. I didn’t mean relationship the way you’re defining it. 
  7. My ex was a really important part of my life for a long time, I’ll always have some feelings, it’s natural.
  8. I didn’t even know you guys were good friends.
  9. I felt super awkward, I didn’t know what to do.
  10. We slept in the same bed but we didn’t do anything, I swear. I just needed a place to crash, that’s it.
  11. I worry that you’re too good for me, and that you’ll dump me. I guess I got defensive and kinda freaked out.
  12. You never cheated on me? I find that hard to believe.
  13. My last relationship was really messed up. I admit I’m still dealing with that.
  14. I am so a good person! I just screwed up. Everybody screws up sometimes, or are you perfect?
  15. I don’t think I ever said that. I was just looking to have fun, so I don’t know why I would have said I wanted to date you.
  16. You’re going abroad next semester, I guess I was trying to adapt to that. It’s going to be really hard for me when you leave.
  17. I’m dealing with some issues you don’t know about right now. No, I don’t want to talk about them, I just  need a little time to work sh*t out. (Dating new person within 48 hours.)
  18. It wasn’t cheating because we’d had a fight that night, and I figured we were broken up until I got your text the next morning.
  19. Whoa, you’re crazy!
  20. You’re freaking me out right now, you’re acting psycho.
  21. It’s no big deal, you’re just making drama for no reason.
  22. I was blackout, I swear. I’d never do anything like that sober.
  23. I don’t know why he/she said that, there’s nothing going on. 
  24. Whoever told you that is crazy or jealous, don’t listen to them.
  25. I thought I wanted to be in a relationship with you, but after we hooked up I realized I didn’t.
  26. I don’t consider making out cheating.
  27. We’re just friends. Don’t you ever hang out with friends alone? Do I ask you about every single person I see you out with?
  28. She sat on my lap, what was I supposed to do? I didn’t want to be a jerk.
  29. He/she kissed me. I didn’t want to make a scene so I just went along for a little bit.
  30. I said I’d go to his weekend formal because he really, really needs a date. Don’t worry, I told him we won’t need privacy in the room.
  31. With graduation coming up, I freaked out about what it would mean to stay together. I needed to see if I really want to commit to you. Um, I guess I decided we should break up. (Dating new person within 48 hours.)
  32. I admit I handled it badly, but I don’t see what was so wrong.
  33. You know you would have cheated eventually, you’re just mad that I did it first.
  34. Everyone knows you put up with cheating before, now all of a sudden you have a higher standard? That’s not fair to me.
  35. I’ve been burned before. I’m sorry I took it out on you, but I don’t trust people very easily.

Judge people by their actions, and expect to be judged by others for your own. 

Most of these should be dealbreakers. It does not matter whether the cheater is immature, damaged from childhood, mentally unstable, confused, emotionally scarred, misinformed, brainwashed by feminism, emasculated by feminism, slow on the uptake, drunk, jealous, horny or goofy.

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  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Unfortunately, you’ve only mapped the tip of the iceberg.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m sure that’s true. Let’s have everyone chime in with the worst excuses they’ve ever heard! Oh, I just thought of another one. A guy was hitting on the best friend of his gf while she was abroad. He was blatant about it, begged for a hookup, confessed a long-standing attraction, etc. He even told her that his gf just “doesn’t do it for me” in the sack. She rebuffed him and skyped with her friend to tell her what happened. His excuse?

      I missed you so much, and being with her reminded me so much of you, that I got my wires all crossed and confused the two of you.”

      The tragedy? His gf bought it.

  • dragnet

    “The tragedy? His gf bought it.”

    This really doesn’t surprised. I’ve seen women go through all sorts of humiliations and mental gymnastics for the men they’re attracted to.

    Anything for alpha.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anything for alpha.

      It was certainly true in this case. I know the people involved, he’s a total player. By the time his gf had returned for the summer break, he was already in a relationship with someone new, which was a complete surprise to her. He’d been skyping and IM’ing the whole time telling her how much he missed her, etc.

      They’re completely done now, but I know for a fact she hooked up with him a few times last fall. I worry about her ability to ever find a good man, I’ve seen her reject plenty of good guys and hold out for asshats.

  • GudEnuf

    Here we go again. If you’re wondering why women feel unwelcome here, it might be because the commenters keep talking about women as if they are systematically irrational creatures who need good, dominant men in order to save them from the horrors of the post-feminist SMP.

    Why is it when a male acts irrational, he’s an outlying beta/sigma/omega male; but when a female acts irrational, she’s a Typical American Woman?

  • Stingray

    Gudenuf,

    Doesn’t saying beta/sigma/omega classify the typical american male?

    BTW, what is the definition of sigma here? Is it the same as Vox’s?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      BTW, what is the definition of sigma here? Is it the same as Vox’s?

      I don’t think so. Vox is a sigma, so that means sigmas are hot ;-)

  • dragnet

    @ GudEnuf

    “Women” don’t feel unwelcome here. YOU feel unwelcome here.

    And I didn’t say one way or the other about the rationality of her behavior.

  • Wayfinder

    Is lying more of a beta thing or an alpha thing? Seems to me either one can do it. Morality and character are orthogonal to social dominance. The excuses probably look different, depending on if they are coming from a position of weakness or strength, but in either case and for either sex, these are not people you want to be spending time with.

  • 108spirits

    Why is it when a male acts irrational, he’s an outlying beta/sigma/omega male; but when a female acts irrational, she’s a Typical American Woman?

    Because the entire Western society is set up to cater for women acting irrationally and excuse their behaviours, while punishing men for everything.

    Most of these should be dealbreakers. It does not matter whether the cheater is immature, damaged from childhood, mentally unstable, confused, emotionally scarred, misinformed, brainwashed by feminism, emasculated by feminism, slow on the uptake, drunk, jealous, horny or goofy.

    Neither of those is excused, of course, but being attractive is apparently forgiveable.

    A couple of guys in my circle are notorious cheaters, who also string along many girls. Yet they never lack female company, even with the good religious girls who would not give other guys a chance for the flimsiest excuses. That’s the power of preselection and being attractive.

    And here’s a classic…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVNEp6hZE3g&feature=related

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A couple of guys in my circle are notorious cheaters, who also string along many girls. Yet they never lack female company, even with the good religious girls who would not give other guys a chance for the flimsiest excuses. That’s the power of preselection and being attractive.

      Enough with the good religious girls. Why do men find it admirable that other men succeed in corrupting religious girls? It’s Les Liaisons Dangereuses, and Valmont was a snake. In the good old days, religious girls got pregnant. The rate of premarital sex among the Pilgrims was 50%.

      I have no problem with any man having a harem, keeping multiple women in rotation, etc. as long as he is open about it. The biggest slut in the world has as much right to be angry about being lied to as the most chaste virgin.

      I’m not sure why a woman would knowingly get involved with a cheater, unless she doesn’t care about being cheated on, in which case there isn’t much deception involved. You can say they’re good, beautiful, the hottest of the hot, it doesn’t matter, because by definition they place very low value on themselves.

  • GudEnuf

    Stingray: “BTW, what is the definition of sigma here? Is it the same as Vox’s?”

    I don’t know, I can’t keep track of all the Greek letters bloggers keep inventing.

  • GudEnuf

    108spirits: “A couple of guys in my circle are notorious cheaters, who also string along many girls. Yet they never lack female company, even with the good religious girls who would not give other guys a chance for the flimsiest excuses. That’s the power of preselection and being attractive.”

    Attractive people get away with more than unattractive people. News at 11.

    Have you noticed that men will put up with a lot more bullshit from a hot chick than a plain one?

  • GudEnuf

    dragnet: “Women” don’t feel unwelcome here. YOU feel unwelcome here.

    Why does a website dedicated to helping young women find boyfriends consistently attract men who only want to disperse cynicism. Alexa says that most HUS visitors are female, but looking at the comments I see mostly males.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf
      Out of curiosity, I counted up the commenters by sex on the previous post – Defense Against the Dark Arts. There are 11 women, and 24 men. Several of the male comments were one-offs, but most of the women have stuck around. Definitely lopsided, but the female POV is represented pretty well.

  • dragnet

    “Have you noticed that men will put up with a lot more bullshit from a hot chick than a plain one?”

    Sure, but the kind of bullshit is very different. Many women will put up with (and still be attracted to) hot guys who are players and sleep around. Far fewer men will knowingly tolerate that sort of behavior from a hot chick.

    Which is why that’s girls behavior isn’t necessarily ‘irrational’. Women, generally, find pre-selected men attractive, and women tolerate more bullshit from attractive men. Pre-selection is a far, far weaker attraction vector for men—ergo a girl sleeping around is a turn off to most guys.

    This is not rocket science.

  • dragnet

    @ GudEnuf

    I can’t speak for other male commenters, but I am not dispersing “cynicism”.

    And frankly, I think the women reading this blog are lucky to be able to read what guys actually think. Turns out, that’s pretty important when it comes time to find that boyfriend.

    The guy commenters here are a net-plus—even if what they say makes you feel uncomfortable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The guy commenters here are a net-plus—even if what they say makes you feel uncomfortable.

      The guys here are a huge plus. I consider the male POV invaluable and informative. I also feel quite fond of most of the commenters here. Think of disagreements at HUS as squabbles around the dinner table. It’s rare for someone to storm out or slam the door. Some may want to reach for an extra glass of wine.

  • dragnet

    And regarding the post, I think those excuses pretty much cover it. A few of them even overlap.

  • Some Handle

    I worry about her ability to ever find a good man, I’ve seen her reject plenty of good guys and hold out for asshats.

    That statement does not make any sense.

    By your own assessment, she has found the good guys and rejected them.

    My advice: stop worrying about the girls and start worrying about the guys.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      By your own assessment, she has found the good guys and rejected them.

      Sorry, that was indeed badly worded. What I should have said was, “I worry about her ability to ever wake up and start making good choices. She’s on the road to spinsterdom, and she’s ignoring all the warning signs: Dead End, Dangerous Curves.

      My advice: stop worrying about the girls and start worrying about the guys.

      I worry about good women and good men, as judged by their character.

  • Some Handle

    I have no problem with any man having a harem, keeping multiple women in rotation, etc. as long as he is open about it.

    My prediction: Men will start being open about keeping Harems when Girls start being open about their willingness to join them.

    However, this will not happen.

    Men are, basically, aware of their anti-social desires, while girls are, basically, unaware of their anti-social desires.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Stephenie
    Oh good lord, that sounds like a Dominican list! I laughed out loud at the cousin excuse. I’d say the threatened suicide one or some variation is pretty common here, as well as some variation of “she forced me.” That reminds me of another excuse – the guy told his gf “She raped me, she’s bigger than I am!” The woman in question is rather large, which gave the gf pause.

    Sigh. Women don’t want to believe the worst. Cue the hamsters.

  • Stingray

    “I don’t think so. Vox is a sigma, so that means sigmas are hot ;-)”

    Yeah, that’s why I wanted to clarify. I think there are even fewer sigmas than alphas.

  • Some Handle

    OK. Let me try this again,

    I worry about her ability to ever find a good man, I’ve seen her reject plenty of good guys and hold out for asshats.

    Followed by:

    I worry about good women and good men, as judged by their character.

    I am guessing that I am missing something here.

    Who here deserves more of your attention and concern: the girl that rejects good guys for asshats, or the the rejected good guys?

    Simply looking at the grand majority of posts on this blog I think that I know the answer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Some Handle

      Who here deserves more of your attention and concern: the girl that rejects good guys for asshats, or the the rejected good guys?

      I am concerned for good women who are rejected by asshats because they don’t put out, and good guys who are rejected by women because they don’t bring high social dominance. Those two groups comprise the “have nots” in this SMP. Why don’t they get together?

      It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind, and that’s fine. HUS might not be your cup of tea.

  • Abbot

    “Look, my self actualized character was formed over 11 years through the repeated expression of embraced alpha-cock empowerment simply by uttering the word “yes” and you actually expect me to just turn that cheap valueless view of my sexuality off like that?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Abbot
      I don’t understand why you’re talking about feminism in this thread. It’s totally irrelevant. If you’re making the point that feminism made women more likely to cheat, I’m not really buying that. It’s made more women disinterested in commitment altogether.

  • Wayfinder

    I think one of the big takeaways for me in the past few months has been that stepping up and acting like an alpha often requires a certain level of character. It takes guts to stand by your word, or to end a relationship. That’s a level of courage and self-knowledge that seems to be lacking these days.

    Some people abuse that, of course, but cultivating virtues like courage and true self-reliance can be alpha-fying.

  • merl

    Because the entire Western society is set up to cater for women acting irrationally and excuse their behaviours, while punishing men for everything.

    That’s a bit of an exaggeration, but you have a point. It’s more extreme in the US. The legal culture here is pro-women to the point of deliberate bias. Women are treated like perpetual children, from the standpoint of their accountability. That assumption isn’t as common elsewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s a bit of an exaggeration, but you have a point. It’s more extreme in the US. The legal culture here is pro-women to the point of deliberate bias.

      This is a red herring in the current debate.

  • Liza207

    Most of these should be dealbreakers. It does not matter whether the cheater is immature, damaged from childhood, mentally unstable, confused, emotionally scarred, misinformed, brainwashed by feminism, emasculated by feminism, slow on the uptake, drunk, jealous, horny or goofy.

    —-
    Cheating is cheating. The end.

  • Some Handle

    I am concerned for good women who are rejected by asshats

    Again, by your own words, this was not a good woman. This was a girl that was rewarding the “asshats”. And this is who you are concerned about. Which is fine. You should be concerned for those that you want to.

    HUS might not be your cup of tea.

    I am pushing for a reason. This blog serves, mainly, to either help girls get off the alpha cock carousel or prevent “good” girls from getting on it in the first place.

    So, I ask that question, “Who here deserves more of your attention and concern: the girl that rejects good guys for asshats, or the the rejected good guys?”, because I am curious to know if you see that as well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This was a girl that was rewarding the “asshats”. And this is who you are concerned about. Which is fine. You should be concerned for those that you want to.

      I see the source of confusion. In this case I am concerned because I have known this girl since she was 13. She is a regular and avid reader of this blog, and I have counseled her many times. I am genuinely fond of her, and wish she would realize the absolute futility of her choices, in that they do not bring her any of the things she says she is looking for. I would ordinarily have little sympathy for women choosing these assclowns, and that is something you will find throughout my blog.

      So, I ask that question, “Who here deserves more of your attention and concern: the girl that rejects good guys for asshats, or the the rejected good guys?”, because I am curious to know if you see that as well.

      Anyone interested in the debate is welcome here, and my concern is that every reader or commenter is engaged by what I write. I write for young men and women who seek relationships. That includes people who’ve never been with the opposite sex, as well as people who have become jaded from hooking up. I don’t have much empathy for girls who keep doing the same stupid things even after I’ve given them advice. Nor do I have much concern for players. I also lose patience with those who complain endlessly and blame others instead of taking control of their own lives.

      I’ve got all types reading here, and they are welcome. I’m interested in exchanging ideas and fostering communication between the sexes.

  • Abbot

    “Women are treated like perpetual children, from the standpoint of their accountability.”
    .
    Yet feminism supposedly promotes strength. But why not accountability? Are women just not predisposed as men to stand by their convictions no matter the outcome? Do they fall apart more readily when things go wrong? If so, that may the reason for centuries of protecting women from themselves. Just like children.

    .

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Good list. Most of these sound rational, and a few sound narcissist (like, blaming you and putting the emphasis in you), so, most of these sound male.

    In my experience when girls cheat they resolve to pure denial. So no excuses, just infinite circling and getting upset about the subject.

  • Abbot

    “It’s made more women disinterested in commitment altogether.”
    .
    Yes, and the result often is historically unprecedented years of “practice” easing in and out of “partnerships” and on average, at a higher rate then most men. When it comes time for a relationship, any person with the most “experience” may have more of a struggle to not slip into old habits.
    .

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: “Out of curiosity, I counted up the commenters by sex on the previous post – Defense Against the Dark Arts. There are 11 women, and 24 men. Several of the male comments were one-offs, but most of the women have stuck around. Definitely lopsided, but the female POV is represented pretty well.”

    Your Alexa page indicates about 60% of your viewers are female. By your own count, only 30% of commenters are female. That means men are 3.5 times as likely to comment as women!

    Why do you think this is? Do you think the silent female majority has nothing to say? Or is possible that several male commenters have created an environment where women feel uncomfortable?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    GudEnuf,

    Do you think the silent female majority has nothing to say? Or is possible that several male commenters have created an environment where women feel uncomfortable?

    Well its obviously due to a female unfriendly environment and sexual harassment. The guys are so bitter and aggressive and demeaning here, and the ladies dont want to speak because they fear of being emotionally violated.

    Or maybe they dont have anything to say.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    GudEnuf,

    That means men are 3.5 times as likely to comment as women!

    I think it means men are 3.5 more prone to silence and repress women so they dont speak their minds. Fuck the Patriarchy, bro.

  • ExNewYorker

    My favorite excuse was:
    “Why would I be dumb enough to openly cheat? If I were cheating I’d just do it out in the open”.

  • jess

    surely being goofy is a legitimate excuse?

  • jess

    dragnet,
    …..which almost makes it ok I guess for guys, but not girls, to sleep around…..

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Mostly an amusing post. There are some great ones from the poly community: “we’re poly, she just doesn’t know it yet!” :P

    Humorless Feminazi time!

    Susan, did you really just say “she raped me” is a bullshit excuse for cheating? That’s not cool. Men can be raped too (just ask NSWATM’s entire comment section). Men can be raped by women. An erection is not consent, any more than lubrication is consent.

    I mean, imagine the possible options:
    Option A: Woman believes man, he’s telling the truth, she helps him heal from his rape (social support is amazingly important in keeping someone from developing PTSD after a rape).
    Option B: Woman believes man, he isn’t telling the truth, they stay together another three or six months before he, being a cheating bastard, does something douchey enough to get dumped.
    Option C: Woman doesn’t believe man, he isn’t telling the truth, cheating bastard is dumped.
    Option D: Woman doesn’t believe man, he is telling the truth and you just compounded the trauma of his rape with the trauma of being disbelieved (not to mention losing a major source of emotional support).

    I mean, would you tell a man whose girlfriend said she was raped to dump her because she’s a cheater?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ozy

      Susan, did you really just say “she raped me” is a bullshit excuse for cheating? That’s not cool. Men can be raped too

      I wasn’t saying otherwise. In this case, I know the “other woman” from my focus groups, and her report was one of his following her into her bedroom at 5 am. To be fair, in the middle of intercourse he pulled out and said, “I can’t do this,” then ran away as the sun came up into the deserted city streets. When his gf found out about it through friends of friends, she confronted hm and he claimed he’d had no choice.

      I guess he deserves some credit for early withdrawal, but that’s up to her.

  • GudEnuf

    Ozy: “An erection is not consent, any more than lubrication is consent.”

    That reminds of Roosh’s terrible post today. He claims it’s impossible to rape a woman because women don’t produce enough lube when they’re raped.

    Actually, our arousal patterns can be triggered without consent. It is even possible for both sexes to orgasm during rape, but it’s still rape.

    An erection is no sign of anything.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ““ I missed you so much, and being with her reminded me so much of you, that I got my wires all crossed and confused the two of you.””

    I think we were talking about Roald Dahl here, one of his adult stories was “Switch Bitch” which involved two men wife-swapping for the night.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Alexa says that most HUS visitors are female, but looking at the comments I see mostly males.”

    Sounds like a repeat of the complaints that boys shout out answers in class while girls raise their hands and don’t get “heard.” (My answer to that was “don’t criminalize maleness, teach girls how to be assertive. No one will wait for you to raise your hand in the real world.”)

    Susan, what is your male/female breakdown in terms of reader email? Could be that women are voicing privately while still being informed by the public discussion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, what is your male/female breakdown in terms of reader email? Could be that women are voicing privately while still being informed by the public discussion.

      90% female, 10% male. I think it’s pretty clear that most of the women on the comment threads are of the feisty sort. :-)

      I think there are a few things going on.

      I think I’ve mentioned that my focus group women all read here, including the comment threads, but only one has ever joined the discussion. Yet when I see them they’ll speak with some familiarity about certain guys – they really like watching and listening to what the guys have to say. Some of these women have asked me specifically to write a post about such and such, so that they can find out what guys really think about it. They’re not seeking a debate, they’re seeking information and instruction.

      Another thing is that it does take a thick skin to be the focus of a discussion, as Emma can attest. Guys interested in the manosphere are well versed in concepts that can be quite intimidating to women. Talk of the red pill, the truth about female sexuality, hamster wheels spinning, women cuckolding men, riding the alpha cock carousel, etc. are all rather intense subjects that come up frequently. There’s a “baptism by fire” element to all of this, and it can be difficult to navigate, especially if the commentariat doesn’t appear overly sympathetic.

      Men are also more analytical and direct in their approach here (and everywhere). This is heightened by the fact that the male age range of regular commenters is about 20-40 or so, while the women tend to skew younger, with a few exceptions.

      Finally, the men here are far more political than the women are. As you know, the most frequent search term bringing readers to HUS is “Why don’t I have a boyfriend?” The young woman who gets online with that question may not have much to say to the man who finds me via links at Vox Day’s or Dalrock. The women usually have a problem to be solved, rather than a general interest in the SMP – it’s the inverse with men.

      Anyway, those are my thoughts.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Why don’t they get together?”

    Don’t blame me…I’ve been asking for numbers all over these threads, but SayWhaat doesn’t want to bite.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    I was a lurker for a long while before I finally started commenting. The reason I held back, despite finding the discussions very interesting, was that I didn’t think my “foreign” perspectives and experiences would have any relevance to the target audience of young American women. (I’ve since figured out that HUS readers are a more international and diverse bunch than I originally thought.)

    On another level, I’m not at all surprised that the majority of commenters are male. I first heard of HUS through John C. Wright’s blog, whose commenters are predominantly male. A little later, when I became a regular (and completely silent) reader of Vox Day’s blog, I just started coming over from his sidebar. These two gateways into HUS have made me think of Susan’s blog as an “outlier” in the Manosphere (an impression reinforced whenever I see HUS linked on the sidebar of a Game blog); so it makes sense to me that her male readers are also her more vocal ones.

    Women may not chime in as often as they would if this were more of a “girls’ club,” but I think the fact that they’re getting more of the male perspective than they would on relationship blogs that essentially are “girls’ clubs” is a good thing.

  • Stingray

    Bellita,

    I found Susan from reading over at Vox Day’s as well. When I first starting reading any of these blogs I would never post, as I had a fear of being ripped up. Then I remembered that some of my most valuable lessons were from me saying completely inane and stupid things and then having either my husband or father telling me just how stupid I was being. Here’s the thing though. They always took the time to explain why, as long as I was willing to listen. (I think Vox posted something similar to this at Alpha Game, but didn’t take at as far as women willing to listen. I get the impression that most are not.) Anyway, I figured that since I learned so much from putting myself out there with my dad and husband I should suck it up and post elsewhere (over at Vox’s is the most intimidating and I never post on topics I know little about). I try to do so very carefully and figure that if I get ripped up, at least I sincerely tried to put some logical thought into it first, and if I am wrong I get to learn something valuable in the mean time.

    I’ve learned a ton, and so far, very little ripping has been done.

  • Abbot

    “No one will wait for you to raise your hand in the real world”
    .
    Its first come first serve. Keep up or shut up. Follow the natural leaders or stay home.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Stingray

    The main reason I’m silent on Vox Day is that I either already agree with him and don’t want to be mere “white noise” or just don’t understand what he’s saying! He has many commenters who say things I disagree with, and I suppose I could get into discussions with them instead, but most of the time I just read his stuff and don’t bother with the threads.

    Susan’s threads are another story. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bellita
      Vox Day is an uber intellectual. I’m actually in awe of the man, and I wouldn’t get into a pissing match with him for anything in the world. :-)

  • Anonymous

    Clearly, the guys here are super winners at the Internets by making so many more comments. We women lose. Gosh darn!

  • dragnet

    @ Jess

    I don’t think it’s wrong for girls to sleep around. It’s just that they should understand that it’s not consequence- or cost-free, no matter how much they (and I) wish it were so.

  • Anonymous

    And we are so blessed to read what a bunch of the most vocal HUS and manosphere men think of women. Their advice surely leads to everlasting happiness and all the best decisions made in love. So blessed!

  • Stingray

    “just don’t understand what he’s saying! ”

    No kidding! Though I have to say I am getting much better with the economic posts.

    I agree with a lot of what he has to say as well. I like his style as he does not suffer fools, but will often respond to sincere questions in a sincere manner. I’ve learned a lot over there.

  • dragnet

    @ Susan

    “Why don’t they get together?”

    Because the “good girls” want social dominance, too.

    Generally speaking, “sluts” & “good girls” are attracted to the same men. They don’t take up with the betas, because the betas don’t turn them on. The “good girls” have just decided to hold out for their alpha, rather than rolling the dice on a roll in the hay.

    Their maturity and self-mastery is laudable. But it’s a tough road to ho, in a manner of speaking.

  • Anonymous

    Generally speaking, the “good men” and “cads” are attracted to the same women. They don’t take up with the fatties and uggos, because those girls don’t turn them on. The “good men” have just decided to hold out for their hottie, rather than pumping and dumping all the time.

    Their maturity and self-mastery is laudable, and also it’s so much better to be a man and have the moral high ground all the time.

  • dragnet

    “Guys interested in the manosphere are well versed in concepts that can be quite intimidating to women. Talk of the red pill, the truth about female sexuality, hamster wheels spinning, women cuckolding men, riding the alpha cock carousel, etc. are all rather intense subjects that come up frequently. There’s a “baptism by fire” element to all of this, and it can be difficult to navigate, especially if the commentariat doesn’t appear overly sympathetic.”

    Yes.

    And also, so many things girls accept as articles of faith about men and relationships meet a sharp and sudden de-bunking at places like this…which can be difficult to take when your whole young life you believed the opposite.

    I also think the tone should be more understanding at these kinds of blogs. Young women (and men) aren’t to the blame for their condition but they are nonetheless responsible for charting a better a path for themselves. In my view, this calls for understanding—less heat and more light.

    Tone matters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet

      In my view, this calls for understanding—less heat and more light.

      Tone matters.

      I really appreciate this.

  • Abbot

    “I don’t think it’s wrong for girls to sleep around. It’s just that they should understand that it’s not consequence- or cost-free”
    .
    But alas, it would be if men did not have abundant options. Mix that infuriating knowledge with a sleep-around girl and you got yourself a soap box sex pozzy.
    .
    “Generally speaking, the “good men” and “cads” are attracted to the same women.”
    .
    They both seek women with similar historical wifely characteristics.
    .

  • Some Handle

    I would ordinarily have little sympathy for women choosing these assclowns, and that is something you will find throughout my blog.

    Actually, I would bet that you would have a lot of sympathy for these girls, if you knew them personally. And that is probably not a bad thing.

    I write for young men and women who seek relationships.

    Personally, I think that you write much more for young women than you do for guys. And, I am not saying that you shouldn’t, but, one of the points that I would probably make is that this blog was started much more out of interest in what your daughter might go through then what your son might go through (in the dating/sex/relationship/hook-up world…not in general).

    You have definitely shifted your focus, somewhat, after becoming more aware of what young guys were going through (i.e. “Hey, Susan, we are not all getting laid…it is only those Rock-Stars/Baseball-Players/Alphas/Bad-boys that are. I;m a nice guy, why not me?!?!”).

    I don’t have much empathy for girls who keep doing the same stupid things even after I’ve given them advice.

    Again, I think you do…if you actually know them. “Hate the sin, not the sinner”, that sorta thing. Though, I imagine your patience wears thin after a while.

    Nor do I have much concern for players.

    This, I believe.

    I also lose patience with those who complain endlessly and blame others instead of taking control of their own lives.

    So, out of curiosity: for those lonely losers out there, would you recommend that they go to Roissy/Heartiste or Roosh to get some schoolin’? I mean, especially with Roissy, there are few sites out there that have been as informative as his has.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Personally, I think that you write much more for young women than you do for guys. And, I am not saying that you shouldn’t, but, one of the points that I would probably make is that this blog was started much more out of interest in what your daughter might go through then what your son might go through (in the dating/sex/relationship/hook-up world…not in general).

      Yes, I think this is right. Generally when I write my default audience is female, with the awareness that many males will read and comment. That seems to be the approach that works best for me, partly because I write what I know, and I don’t know the male perspective. I rely on my readers for that, and I often write posts inspired by men’s comments.

      Also, it was girls who first turned to me for my thoughts. My son and his friends never would have considered doing so. I’ve adapted over time to the changing demographics of my audience, or I’ve tried to.

      “Hate the sin, not the sinner”, that sorta thing. Though, I imagine your patience wears thin after a while.

      Yes. It’s quite difficult for me to hear stories of female “conquests” and not be a total scold. I listen, am careful not to give positive reinforcement, and when the woman crashes I try to point out what should be obvious. It has made a big difference with some women, none at all with others.

      So, out of curiosity: for those lonely losers out there, would you recommend that they go to Roissy/Heartiste or Roosh to get some schoolin’?

      A year ago I would have screamed “No!” When my daughter interned in DC, I sat her down to show her pics of Roissy and Roosh, knowing how tight their Game is. I told her they are the big, bad wolves. But that in itself is testament to their power, no? So in all fairness, and because guys I pretty much adore swear by their blogs, I guess I’d have to say I’ve reached something like neutrality on that question. I openly admire them both for their intelligence and writing, but I also feel that they’ve compromised themselves in some important way. Their humanity, I mean. And I always like to plug Athol Kay, though a young guy is probably not going to be a regular at MMSL.

      There are other plenty of good Game blogs by newer, younger guys, many of which can be found in my Blogroll.

  • http://gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    Clearly, the guys here are super winners at the Internets by making so many more comments. We women lose. Gosh darn!

    Hi Plain Jane! Nobody missed you. Try inventing a new writing style once in a while.

  • Mike C

    Well its obviously due to a female unfriendly environment and sexual harassment. The guys are so bitter and aggressive and demeaning here, and the ladies dont want to speak because they fear of being emotionally violated.

    Or maybe they dont have anything to say.

    I think it means men are 3.5 more prone to silence and repress women so they dont speak their minds. Fuck the Patriarchy, bro.

    Yohami + 1,000,000. Kinda funny to see white-knighting for anonymous non-commenters.

    I’ll be the first to say there are a couple of guys that overstep to a degree. That said, this “hostile” environment nonsense is just that. Word of advice to women in general. Just as a man should and needs to learn about women’s subtle, indirect communication style for personal interaction a woman really should and needs to learn about a man’s blunt, direct communication style when it comes to active debate and discussion. Way too often in these discussions, women take personal offense when a guy simply makes a very direct point she doesn’t like, and then you get a white-knighter riding in to talk about an unfriendly environment.

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/the-medium-is-the-message/

    While more than a few women like to wear this as a badge of some kind of superiority, it doesn’t necessarily mean that what they communicate is more important, or how they communicate it is more efficient, just that they have a greater capacity to understand nuances of communication better than do men. One of the easiest illustrations of this generational gender switch is to observe the communication methods of the “strong” women the media portray in popular fiction today. How do we know she’s a strong woman? The first cue is she communicates in an overt, information centered, masculine manner.

    You don’t need to be psychic to understand women’s covert communication, you need to be observant.

    Hint to the women. You’ll garner ALOT of respect and credibility from men in general if you can engage that direct, analytical style of communication minus the snark and sarcasm. This will be helpful in the workplace in interactions with men. There is a reason that for the most part Susan is deeply respected across many “manosphere” type blogs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You’ll garner ALOT of respect and credibility from men in general if you can engage that direct, analytical style of communication minus the snark and sarcasm. This will be helpful in the workplace in interactions with men.

      I think you’re right, but it’s very tough for many women to travel this distance. I’ll be the first to say that in some ways I am on the male side of the spectrum mentally. I’m no engineer, but am quite analytical by nature. I think that’s genetic, and also what I was rewarded for by my father, whom I always looked up to. He wanted me to “make it in a man’s world.” I’ve also said that I don’t feel very feminine. I’m not sure you can get it all in one package, at least not very often.

      That said, I think the sexes have lost of a lot in the last couple of generations in terms of being able to communicate with one another. With so much emphasis on early sex, and no courtship rituals to speak of, we’ve lost a lot of our ability to converse. Personally, despite our occasional dust-ups, I feel rewarded every day by the intersex dialogue that happens here.

  • http://ozymandias3.blogspot.com ozymandias

    Susan: In my defense you didn’t put that in the original post… although I’m still skeeved out by the idea of “I was raped” as a cheating excuse.

    GudEnuf: I think we should apply this standard of proof to all crimes Roosh might be a victim of. Sorry, dude, it doesn’t count as a mugging unless you have bruises all over your body from fighting back. What do you mean he might have had a gun? How do we know you’re not just making it up to ruin the guy’s life?

  • Stingray

    “You don’t need to be psychic to understand women’s covert communication, you need to be observant.”

    This is only going to help men a bit. Men’s brains simply don’t read facial expressions and body language like a woman’s. You all need to be direct to communicate.

    See the third paragraph here

    My husband had this conversation a few years ago with me. In a nutshell, he said, “Don’t hint, don’t beat around the bush and don’t try to be subtle. Just tell me straight out what you need or I will NEVER get it.” It has made both of our lives so much easier. It makes posting on game blogs far safer as well ; )

  • Mike C

    This is only going to help men a bit. Men’s brains simply don’t read facial expressions and body language like a woman’s. You all need to be direct to communicate.

    Not all of us. :) Like most things in life, I believe it is a skill that can be cultivated and developed although I’m sure it will vary from guy to guy (Asbergery types are out of luck), but my GF is sometimes almost disturbed by how well I can read her facial expressions, vocal tone, and body language without her saying anything direct to me.

  • Matt T

    Everyone knows you put up with cheating before, now all of a sudden you have a higher standard? That’s not fair to me.

    Honestly Susan, I would have to agree with the guy here. Women frequently put up with cheaters, but oftentimes that’s when they know the cheater is an alpha, and they will put up with it for the social validation of a high-status boyfriend. This phenomenon has been recorded and discussed many times.

    If the woman suddenly gets mad about a guy cheating, when she’s put up with it before from high-status men, then she obviously thinks that this new guy is a lower-status man. How dare a lower status man cheat on her! It’s not fair! It breaks nature’s laws!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women frequently put up with cheaters, but oftentimes that’s when they know the cheater is an alpha, and they will put up with it for the social validation of a high-status boyfriend.

      What about a woman who got burned with a guy who cheated on her, maybe allowed herself to be talked into not breaking up a couple of times, only to realize it was never going to stop. She then vowed never to let that happen again, and to select men specifically for the quality of faithfulness. Should she tolerate cheating in all future partners because she did once when she was 18?

      This is actually similar to the price discrimination in sex idea, so I see where you’re coming from. I would say, though, that no cheater should expect to get away with it. Any woman or man who’s been cheated on has every right to end the relationship, regardless of what choices they made previously. Caveat emptor – don’t assume cheating will fly.

  • Abbot

    If the woman suddenly gets mad about a guy cheating, when she’s put up with it before from high-status men, then she obviously thinks that this new guy is a lower-status man. How dare a lower status man cheat on her! It’s not fair! It breaks nature’s laws!
    .
    Typical Western women gear switching and why all good men should just and hit and run from this shit. She was ethically corrupt for not caring if the man’s other woman was hurt by his cheating with her. Huge moral red flag. Shallow and lacks empathy and clearly did not have a proper upbringing. Thats just for starters. She also seemed fine with herself sleeping around with the whim du jour and firmly believed, and god knows why, that when it was time for gear shifting, a man would be there for her and not consider how disturbing that behavior is, the wretch notwithstanding. In her mind, there clearly are two piles of men – those you go jungle with and those you go house hunting with. Feminists created a term for this – double standard. She lived one life and now wants another. Because she cannot continue that old life or knows that soon she will not be able to. Men – do you want a woman who is using you as the lever to switch gears? You should be ok with it if your Grandpa was. Was he? If not, do what he would have done…kick the crap off your shoe and walk straight to women in the other pile, the wife pile.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    This is actually similar to the price discrimination in sex idea, so I see where you’re coming from. I would say, though, that no cheater should expect to get away with it. Any woman or man who’s been cheated on has every right to end the relationship, regardless of what choices they made previously.

    Agreed. A man shouldn’t assume that he can get away with cheating on a girl because she tolerated it in a past relationship. However, he should probably look skeptically upon a relationship with a girl who’s previously sacrificed fidelity for social status, because it reflects something of her values and/or lack of self esteem… And, of course, the same goes for women dating guys who’ve sacrificed fidelity for status in their previous relationships with women.

    People can grow and mature and learn to make better decisions as they gain in life experience, but a bit of skepticism is still good in such situations.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “Don’t blame me…I’ve been asking for numbers all over these threads, but SayWhaat doesn’t want to bite.”

    Badger, you’ve completely charmed me with this. I gotta admit…I’m a Badger / SayWhaat ‘shipper. When I read the boards, I look for a connection…

    If they get together, their couple moniker should be…SayBadger…

  • Stingray

    Mike C,

    Wow. That really is impressive. Is it something you truly cultivated or is it more of a natural talent for you? I gotta think some men are just better at it than others, but that it could definitely be learned as well.

    It’s funny you say that about your girlfriend. My husband and I have been married for 12 years and I sometimes literally frighten him a bit because I will know exactly what he is thinking without him saying a word. It drives him crazy.

  • Matt T

    Abbot has a point. The idea of a woman “switching gears” still remains very offensive to many self-respecting men, and they won’t appreciate it if a woman was willing to sacrifice her relationship’s fidelity in exchange for the rush of status before, and isn’t now.

    If I was dealing with such a woman, I would need to see clear evidence that she was in fact “burned”, as Susan put it, instead of being a status-crazed sorostitute.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If I was dealing with such a woman, I would need to see clear evidence that she was in fact “burned”, as Susan put it, instead of being a status-crazed sorostitute.

      Totally fair and prudent.

  • K-Bar

    Hey, I’m K-Bar! Been browsing HUS for the last couple of months and love the discussion.

    Worst excuse that I ever heard: “But he looked so lonely!” (those of us who understand preselection should find this one especially dubious).

    To Anon comment #60. I like what you did there, but it was totally unnecessary. Dragnet wasn’t condemning sluts and nice girls for craving male dominance, he was simply stating a fact. I’m sure he would agree that most men don’t lust for ugly/fat women (though, barring extreme examples, every man has a different definition of “ugly” and “fat”).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @K-Bar

      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment!

      Worst excuse that I ever heard: “But he looked so lonely!” (those of us who understand preselection should find this one especially dubious).

      Haha, that’s pretty bad, except there is the whole “brooding loner” thing that women love. The handsome guy who no one understands (good looks are essential in this case).

  • Abbot

    The idea of a woman “switching gears” still remains very offensive to many self-respecting men
    .
    While single, non stud/thug/alpha men work at getting laid, getting a girlfriend, keeping her happy and later they work to attract a wife and work to keep her happy too. Its consistent. Its a continuum. They think that women are consistent as well. That projection thing. So when they encounter a gear shifter they feel like all that ass busting was for nothing, all that effort with the eye on the prize and this is what they get…deep disappointment. Gipped. Its a huge cultural disconnect. Obviously she was happy before getting used, not caring about it, loosing the connection between her sexuality and her dignity. Oh yeah, life changes, she changes, focus on her character, blah blah blah. Salvage talk. A whole generation of hollow zombie females looking for something to chew on. Once again gentlemen, choose wisely or grab your passport and go where choosing is near effortless.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Susan: “I am concerned for good women who are rejected by asshats because they don’t put out…”

    Uh, shouldn’t that be a good thing?

  • 108spirits

    I had the misfortune to be in a relationship with a Cluster B HPD girl (guys familiar with these creatures will feel a chill up the spine right now). It wasn’t for long before I figured out (thanks to my mentor, RIP) that she was crazy, but it was enough time for her to hit me with an invented rape sob story (to get my white knight blood boiling up), a fake pregnancy to go with the fake rape story and a suicide threat after I broke it up. She believed everything she said too, and if it weren’t for me double checking the dates on everything with her close friend (at the time, before she drove that one away too), I would’ve been sucked right into her web like a clueless Captain Save A Ho. Apparently she also cheated on me with her brother-in-law. She later explained to me it’s because of her being abused as a teenager, in a half drunken attempt to win me back, combined with flirting with every guy around to get me jealous. She didn’t get why that wasn’t a winning combination.

    Those Cluster B chicks are the worst cheaters around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @108
      I just googled cluster B HPD. Wow, that sounds like a nightmare. Needy x’s 100. For the record, “I cheat because I was abused as a teenager” should be an immediate dealbreaker. It may be the truth, so no value judgment, but as a relationship prospect such a person is bad news, obviously. Using it as a fabrication for selfish behavior is obviously deeply unethical.

  • Matt T

    As for the “men getting raped” thing, it happens with some frequency, I think about 10% of rapes feature a male victim. A lot of them are male-on-male rape, stuff like prison-bitching, teabagging a drunk guy, wtev, etc.

    But in cases of female-on-male rape, what usually happens is that a whale entices a man to get very drunk, then takes advantage of his intoxication. Some PUAs have admitted to being raped in such a manner, though most cases remain unreported. Because think about it: even if you did get raped, you still technically had sex with a fatty. Why would you want to destroy your social image with that fact?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “I think you’re right, but it’s very tough for many women to travel this distance. ”

    Funny how almost all female advice to men has to do with adapting to female ways of doing things – reading subtle signals, passing fitness tests and all the rest of it. (In fact, game itself has a lot of that in it, too.)

    Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.

    Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger

      Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.

      I don’t disagree with you. Meeting men halfway (or even a bit more in the case of a beta) is good long-term strategy. It is particularly hard for women to accept. The alpha/beta paradigm works here – the more sexually aggressive women don’t hesitate to hit on the men they want, while the more beta females are bummed that the SMP no longer meets their needs. They were raised with the mindset that men display and women select. Even if they want to break out of that mold, it’s difficult because of the risk of rejection that many are loathe to assume.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    Badger-
    “Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.”
    you’ve just described the girls in my area. smh. and all women out her smoke a lot. major deal breaker for me. but no worries, i’ll be in NO next month.

  • Dogsquat

    Badger Badger Badger Badger said:

    “Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.”

    ____________

    That’s an interesting point, and one I agree with (NAWALT, of course).

    Why, though, do you think that is? How did we get here? I don’t think one can point solely to feminism, since I know many women like this who’ve never wasted a calorie thinking about gender.

    Is it biological in nature? Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior? Is it a result of an increasingly complex society with hugely more opportunities to communicate?

  • Butterfly Flower

    Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.

    Women have arrived at the station, but they don’t want to get on the train. Sad to say I’m losing sympathy for the (large) cohort of women who won’t do these things to meet men even halfway, and then complain things didn’t turn out the way they want.

    I approached my boyfriend. He was a close friend, we had chemistry…so I just went for it.

    I’ve noticed most of friends expect guys to be telepathic. “Why doesn’t he know I like him!?” They often get frustrated when the guy they’re interested in isn’t aware of their interest. “He’s playing games, that’s why he hasn’t asked me out!” Uh…no, he just lacks the ability to mind-read!

    I get so sick of their whining I end up acting as a wingman. “Dude, my friend likes you *points to friend*”

    It’s like my friends aren’t even aware approaching a guy is an option.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Badger and Dogsquat
    Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.

    Why, though, do you think that is?

    I don’t know how typical you Manosphere men are, but I asked a man I know in real life the question, “I really like this guy and want him to know that if he wants to make a move, I won’t shoot him down. How do I do that?”

    These are the exact words of his reply:

    “It’s difficult to be in that position. Some men are just dense, and some men (many men, actually) fear an assertive woman. For me, if a woman seems too interested it can be a turn-off, or at least cheapen her somewhat in my eyes. So, not easy. Just create situations where he can easily show interest, without pressuring him, I guess. I dunno. I’m always the one to show interest and take risks with girls. I’m not an expert on getting the other person to make a move.”

    I don’t know whether I just read him wrongly, but his advice seemed to be that I shouldn’t be direct. And he didn’t seem to mind that he’s always the one showing interest and taking risks.

  • Stingray

    Dogsquat and Badger,

    I have some thoughts on that, but I am only on my first cup of coffee so please bear with me. First of all, I am much like Susan and have worked hard to travel the distance to better communicate with men, but I think part of this I was born with. I was a huge tomboy. I like it much better on this side of things. It if far less confusing and straightforward.

    Anyway, as to this: “Funny how almost all female advice to men has to do with adapting to female ways of doing things – reading subtle signals, passing fitness tests and all the rest of it. (In fact, game itself has a lot of that in it, too.)”

    Women don’t need to learn to adapt to men in communication, because men are not really that attracted to it. You are attracted to how we look. So, we learn to look pretty and then men typically do the rest.

    It seems to me this is only getting worse as well. We are actually going in the opposite direction and losing more of the ability to communicate with you. We used to have to learn to use our feminine wiles, to be demure on top of being beautiful. Now, all women have to do is dress trashy, show a lot of leg and cleavage and they are golden. There is no need for much communication beyond that so most don’t bother or are ignorant that there is even a better way to communicate beyond that. It’s sad really.

  • Abbot

    have to learn to use our feminine wiles, to be demure on top of being beautiful.
    .
    To qualify for the wife pile
    .
    all women have to do is dress trashy, show a lot of leg and cleavage and they are golden.
    .
    To qualify for the non wife pile, solely
    .
    The male gaze, 1949. Nothing has changed. Its a two-pile system.
    .

  • Stingray

    Abbot,

    I fully agree. However, doesn’t it seem that the second pile is FAR larger now than it was in 1949 and that the first pile is getting woefully smaller? That is a big part of the point I was trying to make.

  • Abbot

    doesn’t it seem that the second pile is FAR larger now than it was in 1949 and that the first pile is getting woefully smaller?
    .
    Yes it seems to be, depending on where you’re standing. There is direct correlation with the state of parenting, nurturing of daughters and disintegration of the family unit. What is the primary geographic location of this correlation and what self-serving group has been and is the most vocal advocate of family disunity? Should men accept the weeds or stand their ground and only pursue beautiful flowers? The battle really is over what defines “wife material” and who gets to decide those characteristics.

    .

  • 108spirits

    I’m a dance instructor in partner dancing. Man leads, woman follows – that’s the default. Often you’d get the girls bitching about the guys not leading well enough, and occasionally guys bitching about the reverse. One perfect way to cure that is to do role reversals for a lesson or two: getting the guys to follow, and the girls to lead. It doesn’t make the girls any better at leading or wanting to lead (just the opposite), and vice versa, but it does make them appreciate & understand what the other side have to do, and stick to performing well in their given role while helping the other side do theirs.

    Same thing in dating. I don’t expect or even want the girl to initiate or lead it, but I’d expect her to play her feminine role well, which means making it easy for me to lead and perform my role. This “making it easy” part is what’s gone missing with modern young women. They are not doing their part of the dance, and usually they are not dancing at all nor even realise there is a dance going on. This lost feminine art can be observed in the old classic movies if you’re curious.

  • 108spirits

    On being feminine, I always get a confused response from the girls I train at dancing when I tell them they need to be more feminine in their part of the dance movement. They have no clue how to be so, some told me they are not girly girls so they can’t do it. Wrong, it has nothing to do with being girly… I find it pretty amusing that a hairy meathead guy like me has to teach a bunch of pretty young girls how to be feminine in dancing…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Even if they want to break out of that mold, it’s difficult because of the risk of rejection that many are loathe to assume.

    Of course they’re loathe to assume it. As are many men. Which is part of the reason why guys who get the balls to run game are so successful. I’m fairly new to game–so I know that my success isn’t due to any expertise. More likely, it’s just the fact that I’m putting myself out there, risking rejection–something most people are unwilling to do.

    Of course, guys who are willing to risk rejection come off as more confident, but that’s not the only reason they’re successful. They make things easier on women. If a woman is faced with two guys, one who screams long-term potential but doesn’t initiate and the other who merely seems a bit fun but is willing to take the risk, she’s more likely to get with the latter, if only because she doesn’t have to put herself on the line for him. She may pine for the former, but, ruled by the same fears as the guy who won’t initiate, she chooses the gamer.

  • 108spirits

    I just googled cluster B HPD. Wow, that sounds like a nightmare. Needy x’s 100. For the record, “I cheat because I was abused as a teenager” should be an immediate dealbreaker. It may be the truth, so no value judgment, but as a relationship prospect such a person is bad news, obviously. Using it as a fabrication for selfish behavior is obviously deeply unethical.

    There’s a certain type of girls – usually Cluster B, but not all – who are quick to inform the guy they’re dating or just got into a relationship with that they were sexually abused. More often than not, this is a lie (they might have been abused, but the particular abuse they brought up is often made up and tailored for the guy) designed to evoke the guy’s inner White Knight. They live off the drama created by the guy’s White Knight rage and inflamed protective instinct. Nice guys – particularly the ones who have never learned to tame their inner White Knight – fall prey to those Cluster B emotion vampires easily. I would have too, if it hadn’t been for my mentor who warned me about them in advance, and my dad who told me to double check the facts before getting further emotionally involved.

    Many guys who found the Game community were victims of one of those nightmare creatures. When they switch on their charms, they are the perfect feminine girlfriends, with the crazy addictive sex as part of the package. The guys who got in too deep often exhibit signs of PTSD afterwards.

    If you ever want to warn your young men off the bad women, make sure you educate them on those emotion vampires – BPD and HPD. The male version is also a Cluster B, and the ever popular sociopath that you’ve warned young women about (Antisocial PD, Narcissistic PD). Cluster Bs are functioning disorders, so they don’t appear like the typical mentally ill to others, which is why they are particularly dangerous.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Now, all women have to do is dress trashy, show a lot of leg and cleavage and they are golden. There is no need for much communication beyond that so most don’t bother or are ignorant that there is even a better way to communicate beyond that.

    I’m not so sure this is true. Granted, men like legs and cleavage, and even a nice round butt and a girl that can sway her hips when walking. We like long luscious hair and full pouty lips.

    However, and the following applied to me back when I was seeking out relationships and even now that I’m avoiding commitment altogether: there’s something compelling and extremely attractive about a woman you can get lost in conversation with. Flirty but not slutty, engaging but not overbearing, intelligent without being condescending. If ever I were going to find myself in a relationship against my better judgment, it would be conversation–not cleavage–that would charm me out of my lair.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @108spirits
    I find it pretty amusing that a hairy meathead guy like me has to teach a bunch of pretty young girls how to be feminine in dancing…

    How’s this for amusing? Take away “dancing” and write “dating,” and you’ll have pretty much described what many of Susan’s female readers are getting out of this blog, whether or not they join the discussion.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I don’t know whether I just read him wrongly, but his advice seemed to be that I shouldn’t be direct. And he didn’t seem to mind that he’s always the one showing interest and taking risks.

    The problem with being direct with a shy guy is that odds are he’s so insecure about his ability to attract women that he’d 2nd guess his response to your display of interest. What if he does something wrong and it turns you off immediately? He feels unprepared for the enormous amount of pressure.

    So what’s the answer: persistence? How do you know if a guy is choking or just not interested? I’m not sure exactly.

  • Some Handle

    Stingray,
    You are attracted to how we look. So, we learn to look pretty and then men typically do the rest.

    The average woman has gotten much, much fatter over the years, so that can’t be true.

    (I understand that men have gotten fatter as well, but we are not claiming to be the pretty ones.)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I think that if girls are going to initiate with a shy beta guy type, they need to have some comfort building strategies in place.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bellita,

    For guys with confidence with women, initiating things is kind of exciting. When I was much younger though, I placed way too much value on what the girls i liked thought of me. The fear was that every act, every word and gesture was being judged by the girl I liked. If I sensed that a girl liked me, I’d wonder why, and then worry that the next minute I’d say or do something that would “break the spell.”

    My frame of mind was that I was under scrutiny and judgment. I would imagine that a successful frame change to put guys like that at ease would be to show them that you value you their judgments about you.

  • Stingray

    What is the primary geographic location of this correlation and what self-serving group has been and is the most vocal advocate of family disunity?

    I would have to go with large cities for geographic locations and feminists for the disunity.

    Should men accept the weeds or stand their ground and only pursue beautiful flowers?

    Personal choice.

    The battle really is over what defines “wife material” and who gets to decide those characteristics.

    Again, it’s personal choice. She will be your wife so you decide the characteristics. You have two pools to choose from and I find it scary that typical wife material is dying away.

  • Stingray

    However, and the following applied to me back when I was seeking out relationships and even now that I’m avoiding commitment altogether: there’s something compelling and extremely attractive about a woman you can get lost in conversation with. Flirty but not slutty, engaging but not overbearing, intelligent without being condescending. If ever I were going to find myself in a relationship against my better judgment, it would be conversation–not cleavage–that would charm me out of my lair.

    I don’t disagree with this. My point is that using cleavage and showing lots of skin is getting women the alphas for at least a night maybe even a couple of weeks. A lot of their friends are telling this how great this is for them and then they just move around on the carousel. By the time they are ready to settle and need the communication skills you are talking about, it is either too late because they are not as attractive any more (getting old), men don’t want women with histories like this, or they are beyond the ability or remain unwilling to learn these skills. Skin got them laid and many thought this was all they needed. In my (admitted limited) experience, it is the girls who don’t show as much skin who develop the communication skills you speak of and tend to be better LTR material.

  • Abbot

    I would have to go with large cities for geographic locations and feminists for the disunity.
    .
    Both entirely avoidable along with their influences. Women there are trapped in their self created prison seeking some elusive personal satisfaction. Men, conversely, are free to leave to find theirs.
    .
    You have two pools to choose from and I find it scary that typical wife material is dying away.
    .
    or given away and mostly in those aforementioned feminism-ruined cities. Only scary for them.
    .

  • Stingray

    The average woman has gotten much, much fatter over the years, so that can’t be true.
    (I understand that men have gotten fatter as well, but we are not claiming to be the pretty ones.)

    Ok, yes. They have gotten fatter. So this makes me wonder. Are the fatter and less attractive girls better at communicating verbally with men because they have to rely on that more?

    I still think that the attractive girls just don’t bother to learn the skills Badger is talking about because they have no need to. Men are attracted to them because of the way they look and they just don’t bother to learn anything beyond that. Then when they want to settle they are more likely to be screwed because their looks are fading.

  • Stingray

    Abott,

    I don’t disagree with a thing you are saying. I think that the men should go where they want to find what they want. ONS’s or LTR’s.

    My brain is addled with a thousand different things this morning. I was addressing women’s lack of communication skills with men. Did I miss something else that you are discussing here?

  • http://en.gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    On Badger/SayWhaat: that reminds me!

    SayWhaat maintains she’s never turned down a date or rejected a friendly advance. But she’s clearly dodged Badger’s attempts to get her number.

    So what’s going on? Did you just make your first rejection? Or did you reject him without realizing it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      SayWhaat maintains she’s never turned down a date or rejected a friendly advance. But she’s clearly dodged Badger’s attempts to get her number.

      Badger may want to consider playing up any latent hipster tendencies.

  • Some Handle

    Are the fatter and less attractive girls better at communicating verbally with men because they have to rely on that more?

    In general terms: possibly.

    In definite terms: I doubt it.

    Because if they really were better at communicating, they would know damn well to lose the extra fat, or, better yet, not get fat in the first place.

    And, no, I am not being sarcastic.

  • K-Bar

    @ Susan

    The guy in question was harldy a loner. However, he had a quiet confidence about him and an air of mystery. I don’t think that women pine for true loners (men who eschew friendship), but rather mysterious bad asses who look like they can fend for themselves. Sigmas if you will.

    As for cluster b’s, they have nothing on bipolar chicks. My cousin and I both dated one and got burned in a remarkably similar fashion. Constant need for attention, flirtatiousness with strangers, hot/cold, pet names for inanimate objects, and a grand finale break up more unsettling than the latest David Lynch production. Think of Kate Winslet’s character from Eternal Sunshine but with an extra helping of bitchiness and annoying quirks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My cousin and I both dated one and got burned in a remarkably similar fashion. Constant need for attention, flirtatiousness with strangers, hot/cold, pet names for inanimate objects, and a grand finale break up more unsettling than the latest David Lynch production.

      Yup that sounds like dear old Mom.

  • K-Bar

    hardly

  • VD

    I try to do so very carefully and figure that if I get ripped up, at least I sincerely tried to put some logical thought into it first, and if I am wrong I get to learn something valuable in the mean time. I’ve learned a ton, and so far, very little ripping has been done.

    I’m glad you feel it’s been worth it. But don’t fear the ripper! The fastest way to improve your knowledge base and understanding of an issue is to get substantively ripped. For example, I estimate that when I started doing martial arts, I got my ass seriously kicked – by which I mean I was hit hard enough to be knocked down – around 150 times before I became a fighter that the hard guys in the dojo took seriously. Iron requires iron to sharpen it, soft and gentle caresses won’t do. That being said….

    The main reason I’m silent on Vox Day is that I either already agree with him and don’t want to be mere “white noise” or just don’t understand what he’s saying!

    I congratulate you on the white noise avoidance, but if you don’t understand something, please feel free to simply ask. There is a comprehensive difference between an honest question and a challenge, and I’m not going to humiliate anyone over the former. And even if my explanation doesn’t appear to make any sense, usually there is someone there who can explain the explanation.

    I wouldn’t get into a pissing match with him for anything in the world.

    Perish the thought! I think far too highly of what you have created here to even think of soiling it with my excess fluids.

    Oh, and as for Sigmas, they are much more rare than Alphas, and I am increasingly coming to suspect that they are what happens when an Omega finally figures out the human race and goes directly to Alpha. Hence their eccentricities and absence of social controls.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      I wouldn’t get into a pissing match with him for anything in the world.

      Perish the thought! I think far too highly of what you have created here to even think of soiling it with my excess fluids.

      Whoops, I feel like I’ve been caught telling tales out of school! Thanks for the compliment, though, much appreciated.

  • Hellhath

    @Stingray

    I always felt there is a parallel between gentlemen clubs and the SMP (it’s a test lab for gender studies). Having spent many years working door on clubs I can say that the girl who communicates best makes the best money. It is all about the ability to sustain the illusion of interest. (For the subconscious, illusion is the same thing as reality)

    As they say in the business there is two ways to make money, with your body or with your mouth. Sadly there is a rising trend of women (in and out of the clubs) that seem to think to generate interest, and subsequent maximum benefit, the body is sufficient. I’ve seen gorgeous women sit down next to a customer in a huff and expect him to roll over. I’ve seen average or below average women walk up and engage him and by the end of the night have the contents of his entire wallet (plus credit advances).

    As to whether fatter girls are better at the art of the tongue because they have to rely on it more? Sadly, no. A strong desire to learn is the most important thing to getting good at conversation. Frankly, most women I interact with on a daily basis don’t even see a need to be an active partner in conversations let alone learn how to initiate it. This is regardless of their other motives (such as financial gain), desire for boyfriends, or goals.

  • Stingray

    Some Handle,

    Yeah, but here’s the thing. So many people are communicating to them that “you are pretty just the way you are.” It’s more like selective listening.

  • Some Handle

    Yeah, but here’s the thing. So many people are communicating to them that “you are pretty just the way you are.” It’s more like selective listening.

    No argument here.

  • Isabel

    Is it biological in nature? Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior? Is it a result of an increasingly complex society with hugely more opportunities to communicate?

    Oh, there was some university study or other which suggested that women are more likely to be offended and have a lower threshold of behaviour they will consider to be ‘bad’. Men, on the other hand, will say what they want directly because they are not as cautious or even aware of offending others. So, couple that with the fact that a direct woman is often misconstrued as being aggressive or ‘bolshy’ + the fact that women genuinely fear social alienation, and it’s no wonder they choose to play it safe in subtlety. Rejection is probably the number one

    Clicky: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=women-apologize-more-frequently-tha-10-09-25

    http://cogsciblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/women-more-likely-than-men-to-feel-they-have-done-wrong-study-finds/

    Personally, I don’t see the benefit of skirting around a subject much but for deference’s sake, you kinda have no choice. With most girls, I have to tread a line or hold back a little in case I upset someone by accident. E.g, if an overweight girl asks me whether she needs to lose a few pounds, my instinct is to say “yep, come gym with me” , but saying that to her would make me look like the most callous cow that ever lived to other women, even *if* they are thinking the same thing. I hate girl politics. ¬_¬

  • Isabel

    The worst excuse for cheating that I’ve seen was in the 2001 film “Baby Boy” with that Snoop Dogg guy in it. It’s kinda old but it was on TV recently. Sorry about the swearwords, they’re not mine! =D

    Yvette: Jody, I know you love me. I also know you fuck other girls. I don’t like it, but I know you. So just be real with me. Man, you gone be honest or what?
    Jody: If you can take it. You’re starting to get on my nerves with this shit.
    Yvette: I’m getting on your nerves? And you’re the one fucking around. You get with any of them girls you sell dresses to?
    Jody: A few. There. You feel better now? I love you, girl. You got my son and you probably gone be my wife. You want me to be honest?
    Yvette: Yeah, I do.
    Jody: You’re my woman. Them other ho’s is tricks. I make love to you, I want to be with you, but I fuck other females occasionally. I don’t know why, I just do. That’s the situation. You feel better now? That’s some honesty for yo ass. Deal with it. I love you enough to be honest.
    Yvette: Jody, If you loved me, you wouldn’t lie to me all the time. Move!
    Jody: Hold on. You got it all twisted up! I lie ’cause I do love you. Being honest would mean I don’t give a fuck. Out on the street, I tell the ho’s the truth. I lie to you because I care about your feelings.

    Charming!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I lie ’cause I do love you. Being honest would mean I don’t give a fuck.

      That really is priceless.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Badger may want to consider playing up any latent hipster tendencies.”

    You mean I haven’t yet mentioned my large collection of leather belts and satchels?

  • Stingray

    Isabel,

    Girl politics are really hard to navigate. I figured this out VERY young and have had few women friends because of it. Whenever we go to some get together and the men and women separate, I am constantly putting my foot in my mouth because I speak to them like I do men. These days, what this usually means, is that I sit there with my mouth shut so I don’t offend. I hate these parties and usually try to find my way to the men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Girl politics are really hard to navigate.

      It’s all about subtext and though I can do it, I dislike it intensely. I’ve been rereading The Fountainhead. What I wouldn’t give to go through life like Howard Roark.

  • Some Handle

    Girl politics are really hard to navigate. I figured this out VERY young and have had few women friends because of it.

    I can’t tell you how many girls I have known that have said they have very few, if any, girl friends.

    One girl (very sweet and very, very smart) said that she was, basically, a misogynist. So, I asked her, “So, do wish that you had been born a guy instead of a girl?”. She replied, (I will never forget her answer) “God No! Because then I would have to put up with their insane behavior. As a girl, I get to be the crazy one.”

    I always thought that was interesting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “God No! Because then I would have to put up with their insane behavior. As a girl, I get to be the crazy one.”

      I guess she doesn’t have penis envy. I’d have a harder time making that call.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Why, though, do you think that is? How did we get here? I don’t think one can point solely to feminism, since I know many women like this who’ve never wasted a calorie thinking about gender.”

    Feminism in one form or another has infected and infested almost every corner of society, but I think feminism is a red herring in this case. The problem is narcissism and our consumerist society, which programs us to seek short-term thrills and to think of ourselves as special snowflakes.

    In young women, this manifests as hyper-selectivity, overvaluing themselves in the sexual market, and rationalizing their own lack of action, their refusal to do uncomfortable but necessary work to get what they want, as a projection that men aren’t “manning up” or that they shouldn’t have to do it because they’re so awesome, everyone should change to accommodate them.

    “Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior?”

    Obviously not today, since these women aren’t getting any dates or relationships.

    Danny,

    “you’ve just described the girls in my area. smh. and all women out her smoke a lot.”

    LOL, nice non sequitur.

    BF,
    “I approached my boyfriend. He was a close friend, we had chemistry…so I just went for it.”

    Good for you – see ladies, her (mild) risk-taking yielded a good outcome!

    “I’ve noticed most of friends expect guys to be telepathic. “Why doesn’t he know I like him!?” They often get frustrated when the guy they’re interested in isn’t aware of their interest. “He’s playing games, that’s why he hasn’t asked me out!” Uh…no, he just lacks the ability to mind-read!”

    Usually guys are just as freewheeling and confused as the girls:
    http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/game-plan/

    “Even if they want to break out of that mold, it’s difficult because of the risk of rejection that many are loathe to assume.”

    +1 to Jesus’ response. It’s just like in work life – they are going to have to get over themselves and accept that life has the risk of mild, transient discomfort. As we budding gamers know, it’s easier to take rejection early than to let anxiety build up. It’s just wild that young women will seven ways to Sunday assert they are equal to men, should have all the same opportunities, etc, but the idea of opening a man with something as simple as “hi, how are you?” (which is usually all it would take) is unacceptably threatening.

    Stingray,

    “Women don’t need to learn to adapt to men in communication, because men are not really that attracted to it. You are attracted to how we look. So, we learn to look pretty and then men typically do the rest. ”

    This is a breathtaking statement. It has nothing to do with attraction. Yes, they absolutely do need to learn it. One of the absurdly common complaints from women is that they can’t read their men. “How do I know if he likes me? What is he thinking? Why does he do things the way he does?” Thing is, it’s easy to learn if you throw away the idea that men are defective women. If they plan to have successful relationships, women absolutely need to pick up their understanding of male communication (both to understand his and to better communicate with him by using his own style), instead of insulating themselves in gynonormative cocoons and stomping their feet that “men are so clueless!”

    To put it more bluntly, so how’s that “men typically do the rest” working out for the collective female horde? Not well at all, if what’s being written at HUS, the Frisky and even Jezebel is to be believed.

    Jesus,

    “I think that if girls are going to initiate with a shy beta guy type, they need to have some comfort building strategies in place.”

    Read Susan’s wistful thread about ‘Casey’ – an extroverted, alpha-dating (which all but certainly means riding the carousel to some degree) chick tries to pick up a beta guy, with predictably disastrous results. It would be fairly funny if (a) it wasn’t real people and (b) it didn’t cause sympathetic pangs of pain in the men who have been in that situation *raises hand*.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/09/20/relationshipstrategies/i-found-a-great-beta-guy-but-hes-ruining-his-own-game/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Badger
      The Casey thread nearly knocked me for a loop. It was a tornado sweeping thru HUS and getting Dalrock’s boxers in a twist. Casey has never been seen or heard from again. :-(

      I still maintain there is nothing wrong with swaying to the beat of the music!

  • Stingray

    Some Handle,

    That is absolutely hysterical! Did she at least try not to be crazy, though?

  • Some Handle

    “Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior?”

    Obviously not today, since these women aren’t getting any dates or relationships.

    I disagree. The pimps and ho’s may not have as many long-term monogamous “Two cats in the yard” relationships as your average suburban accountant, but, they are having, in general, more children (and at a younger age) than the average Jane and Joe.

    They are out breeding us.

  • Isabel

    @ Stingray

    Noooo! *Darth Vader voice*

    Don’t avoid us and join the dark side! I know some women are too bloody frustrating to even share a room with but don’t let it colour your perceptions. Just just chalk them up as truth-haters and make friends with women who find your outbursts more amusing than offensive, rare as they may be. Most of the times, like you, I don’t even say anything mean (intentionally) but I always end up getting in trouble for something or other.

    Ah well. No loss. I know whether I’ll get along with a girl as soon as I meet her anyway. When I met my best friend for the first time, we finished the day as though we knew each other for a lifetime. We clicked almost instantly. My own cousins, however, came to visit us for three weeks once and not a single word was spoken between us during their entire stay. I remember them giving me some serious side-eye and relentless negging on the first night. In my own kitchen no less. ¬_¬

    Women definitely need to be more direct and less insecure and over-analytical about trivial, social situations.

    One girl (very sweet and very, very smart) said that she was, basically, a misogynist.

    I can sympathise with her a little but more in a ‘I dislike them for their own good way’. I would bet she was bullied for being both smart and pretty which led her to become a mini-misogynist in the first place. The thing with women in groups is that they will surround and verbally bully the crap out of anything that is remotely threatening or non-conformist. That is why the prettiest girls and the ugliest girls will have the shoddiest self-esteem possible whilst the plain janes swan around with egos the size of a small plane.

  • Anonymous

    A female misogynist is very unhealthy. I know because I was one. Without the ability to form trusting and mutually respectful friendships with females, I was also without the ability to form a healthy relationship with a man.

    It’s easy to talk to both men and women when you’re similarly intelligent and emotionally balanced. If a woman has trouble with female friendships, then she is either trouble herself (choosing to be the “crazy one”) or is too far outside the norm to form good bonds.

    I cherish every single female bond I have, all the more so because I’m happily married and am completely content with having one man as my best friend for life, and my girl friends as my support and mentors for as long as they choose to be in my life.

  • Stingray

    Badger,

    I get the feeling I didn’t make myself very clear. I bemoan the fact that women don’t learn how to communicate as well. I agree with what you said and am offering my opinion as to why they feel they don’t need to learn more.

    What initially attracts a man is how a woman looks. If she learns to keep herself pretty a woman will assume that that will be enough to get what she wants from a man. . . attention. So in her mind, since she is going home with these men and not having to learn to communicate, why bother? Her attractiveness is doing it all for her.

    Often times, by the time a woman decides she does want to have a successful relationship she hasn’t figured out any communication skills and, obviously the “men typically do the rest” isn’t working out for them at all. But it’s hard to get past that when the men were doing it all when they were only counting on their looks.

  • Stingray

    Badger said:

    Yes, they absolutely do need to learn it.

    If they need to learn it, why are they so successful on the carousel without it?

  • K-Bar

    @ Susan

    Sorry to hear about your mother. I couldn’t imagine growing up with the behaviors that I described (though it apparently didn’t stop you from becoming an awesome blogger).

    Being a cynical beta with Aspergers, I figured that me and bipolar chick would have made a charming couple. Turns out that acidic personalities do not neutralize each other. The experience wasn’t all crap, however, as it led me to the gameosphere. I still remember the day when I stumbled upon a little blog called Citizen’s Renegade. That first dose of red pill sure hurt like hell, though.

  • Stingray

    Ahh, bugger, I messed up the blockquote above. Let me try again . . .

    Badger said, “Yes, they absolutely do need to learn it.”

    My response:

    If they need to learn it, why are they so successful on the carousel with out it?

  • Anonymous

    Oh and I’m not Plain Jane, whoever she is. I just don’t feel any need to try to please a bunch of guys on a blog. The more you hate on women en masse, the less attractive it makes you. I’m simply mocking what you boys say to make you see how your own behavior is unattractive.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stingray,

    Do you mean the cock carousel? girls dont need great communication skills to succeed there

  • Stingray

    Isabel,

    I have women that I get along with very well and can spend time with but I am ALWAYS wary of what I say and keep the conversation somewhat vapid. I do spend some time with these woman and enjoy the company, but I cannot do it for great lengths of time. I lose patience and get bored. That’s usually when I go seek out the men.

    I have one very good woman *friend* (a true friend, someone I can count on for almost anything) but she is sometimes very hard to be with as she treats her husband like crap. He is beta in every way and bends over backwards for her. In turn, she walks all over him. The more I see her do this, the more I have a difficult time squaring our friendship in my head as she treats me better than her own husband. It’s very hard for me and if I said anything, I am not sure what she would do. I have been trying to come up with a way to get her husband Athol’s book without stirring anything up that is really none of my business.

  • Stingray

    Yohami,

    Yep, that is exactly what I mean.

  • Anonymous

    Being able to communicate well with a man in the direct manly style doesn’t mean much by itself. I know because I grew up talking great with guys and had quite a few fall in love with me due to the conversations. But I was still terrible relationship material.

    To be a good gf/wife there are other traits needed. Is she also wise, mature, moral, empathic, kind, and emotionally balanced? Is she self-respecting, other-respecting, willing to compromise, has a healthy ego, can set good boundaries, and has good intentions toward others? Does she take responsibility for her own actions, does she recognize her own flaws and works to fix them, and will she delay gratification of the moment for a goal down the road?

    There’s more, but this is a good start. A woman who just knows how to “work” a man and talks a good talk in addition to looking good can be as terrible if not worse. Personality is more than just conversation skills — narcissistic charmers have that in spades but often leave a trail of destruction. If she tries to meet you half-way and has all the aforementiond good traits, but she’s not so great at talking direct manly talk, it doesn’t make her bad. Get your advice-dispensing straight, boys.

  • Stingray

    Stephanie,

    I can do it, and I can do it quite well, but it is exhausting for me. And every once in a while I slip and offend someone, usually with something totally benign in my mind. Most of the time, this is why I sit quietly and listen, or just go where I am most comfortable, with the guys.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Most of the women commenting on this blog, including Susan, are outliers

  • Isabel

    @ Stingray

    Send him Athol’s book via Morse code when she is asleep. Send the poor guy provisions too. Like… now. It’s your duty as a citizen and a friend.

    Why do people marry people they don’t like?! That is so sad!

    @ Steph

    This is a good take, but I’m still curious about why if you learned this very young you didn’t mastered the art of looking not threatening. I learned that and now I don’t have any issues with women at all, I get along very well with both genders at this point. Why do you think you have the opposite effect to this universal truth?

    Oh, at first I struggled with females because I was always forthright about what I wanted to say and they didn’t appreciate that at first. It took me a few years to realise that when you want to say something constructive to a girl, you have to be super-comforting and gentle about it. E.g, highlighting the possible positives from engaging in X action instead of focusing on the present negatives. Otherwise she’ll only sense the perceived slight and the imminent red mist will then blur out anything important in your message.

    Now, I can pull it but I feel a little suffocated inside. With my closest friends who are all female, I can say whatever skips across my mind with no consequences. With women I am not sure about or have not met before, it is emotionally exhaustive to walk on egg shells all the time and self-censor as a talkative person. Tbh, I would rather get a swift punch to the face (or a slap, preferably) from a guy than enter a room of women that I do not know.

  • Some Handle

    I would bet she was bullied for being both smart and pretty which led her to become a mini-misogynist in the first place.

    Not to be mean, but she was average looking. She was very sweet and very logical. It was the “logical” part that killed her. She was not able to put up with: Catty-ness, flakiness, vapid-ness, etc.

    If a woman has trouble with female friendships, then she is either trouble herself (choosing to be the “crazy one”) or is too far outside the norm to form good bonds.

    She got her BS in Molecular Biology and then her Masters in Bio-Chemistry from Johns Hopkins. She was pragmatic, patient, reasonable, logical and displayed zero drama. Very few girls related to her.

    She had at least one more thing that set her apart; not only was she smarter than all of the other girls on her floor, she was completely open and honest about her ultimate aspirations: to be a Wife and Mother and stay home and raise a family. At that time I did not a single other girl that said anything close to that.

  • Stingray

    Isabel,

    Ha! I wish that were possible! I can’t even tell you how much I have been trying to figure out how to get him that book. I don’t worry too much about the friendship (though I admit this could end it) because if he took it to heart it could save their marriage and that would be worth it. But, he is the type of guy who might say, hey honey, look what Stingray gave me! In this case, it would make his life hell AND ruin the friendship. I have no idea what to do. Though, there is no divorce danger, they would both be so much happier if he is capable of listening to Athol. I am not sure he is, though.

  • Some Handle

    He is beta in every way and bends over backwards for her. In turn, she walks all over him. The more I see her do this, the more I have a difficult time squaring our friendship in my head as she treats me better than her own husband.

    Stingray,
    I am curious, did your feelings about her change at all after you became more aware of the Alpha-Beta blogs (i.e. the Roissy-sphere or, “taking the red pill”)?

  • Stingray

    Stephanie,

    I truly appreciate that.

    Problem is that I think they only have one email that she checks. She would likely think it was just spam and delete it. And if she did take the time to read it, I think she would be offended and not give it a chance. While I do think that she is the type of person who could understand and accept game given time, I am not sure that it could help their marriage if she is at all aware of what is going on. She would always be analyzing what he is doing, instead of just being able to enjoy the improvements. I am hoping that one day, an opportunity will present itself where I can briefly tell him about the book and advise him to buy it. That is the best I can come up with. Ugh.

  • Stingray

    Some Handle,

    Do you mean did I only start to notice how she treated him after taking the red pill and then it made me mad? or, did my feelings change towards he after I realized what was causing her to act that way?

  • Some Handle

    Wait and she made out of alive??!!!

    She was extremely quiet. That was her strategy.

    It can very easily lead to loneliness.

  • Some Handle

    Do you mean did I only start to notice how she treated him after taking the red pill and then it made me mad? or, did my feelings change towards he after I realized what was causing her to act that way?

    Well, I guess, both.

  • Stingray

    Wow, I’m really sorry for the excessive posting today. I think I needed some intelligent conversation. (Husband been really busy and I’ve been spending a ton of time with the kids, my brain is a bit fried.)

  • Isabel

    @ Some Handle

    Well, it looks like her intelligence and future ambitions marked her out as a non-conformist then. It isn’t cool to talk about marriage and babies in front of people who won’t care for them until a decade later. In the eyes of your average, self-titled Princess, your friend comes across a little like this.

    – No drama = no lifer
    – Direct = bitchy
    – Not catty = boring
    – Liking science enough to have gotten a Masters in Biochem at JH = nerd
    – Wants to be a stay at home despite her credentials = frump

    When the reality probably is:

    No drama = pleasant
    Direct = honest
    Not catty = well-mannered
    Liking science enough to have gotten a Masters in Biochem at JH = intelligent
    Wants to be a stay at home despite her credentials = maternal

    So, essentially, they put her down for having more potential than them. Jealousy is such a dumb trait.

    @ StingRay

    Take Stephanie’s offer and advice, or at the very least, leave a book behind at his workplace or office away from his wife’s clutches. Gosh. I really should *not* be giving out marriage advice, lol.

  • Stingray

    I always noticed it and it aways bothered me. But right before I found game, his business slowed way down and he was home a lot. This is when I really started to see how she treats him. Even though he is not working, financially they are fine. He has taken care of things so that can be the case, but I think she had a hard time with him being home more and the more he helped the worse it got. Even before the red pill, I could never square how she could get so mad at him, with everything he was doing for her and it really pissed me off. I would gently try to defend him and explain his point of view and she would say she understood, but how frustrating everything was. I’m sure you know the drill.

    When I took the pill, my feelings didn’t really change toward her. It only brought about an understanding of why she does what she does. She can get away with it because he lets her. He lets her because he thinks he is doing the right thing. Logically speaking, it is hard to be mad at either of them because it is both their faults and neither of their faults. But watching her smack him in the back of the head (you know, acting like she is joking but she’s not) and calling him out for something stupid, is not only highly embarrassing for me to be in the same room with, but brings about an anger instilled in me as a little girl . . . how could she treat a man she loves with such disdain and lack of respect?

  • Lola T

    Hey these are really true. I feel now a days teens and youth are find reading this post that they have 95% of the qualities mentioned and this needs to bother them and get a self change also.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Stingray

    I wasn’t going to butt in, but with every comment you leave about your friend and her poor husband, I am more and more reminded of another relationship I saw that was exactly like that.

    One of my friends could treat her boyfriend so badly that she made everyone around them uncomfortable. It didn’t happen all the time, but when it did, it was bad. The worst time was when they were at a really crowded place and he suggested they leave a parking spot that was too far away and try to find a closer spot. They ended up driving around for half an hour because the place was just too crowded, with no other place to park. And of course they lost the first spot. She was so upset with him because she had to do all that driving–and she wouldn’t let him be the one to look for a new spot while she went ahead to the flea market because she thought he was a “bad driver” and predicted he’d scratch her car. So imagine him stuck in the passenger seat for half an hour, while she told him everything was his fault and he wasn’t allowed to make things better. Oh, yeah–and while I was in the backseat. :(

    At first I didn’t speak up because I didn’t want to make things worse (not that they seemed to be getting any better), but when she called him “stupid” I called her out on it . . . and then, of course, she and I started to fight. Sigh!

    Anyway, if I had known then what I know now, I think I would have waited a couple of weeks and then taken him aside and just talked to him. My only worry would have been him finding it humiliating to be helped by a girl who had seen a display like the one I’ve just described. But I can be very direct with my friends (affection sans the tact), and I hope his knowing that about me would have made the talk easier to take.

  • Stingray

    Hellhath,

    I just saw your post, for some reason it popped up late. You demonstrated what I was flailing to say. The woman who WANT to learn will and will likely have very good relationships because of it. The women who simply want fun, seem lazy, don’t learn this ability and just use their bodies because it works for them. They have no need to communicate beyond the cock carousel.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Stephenie

    For the first ten minutes, he kept trying to calm her down, saying gently, “Don’t be so upset. We’ll find one soon. I’m sure of it.” And then the constant harping just got to him and he took the rest of it it silently.

    I wasn’t surprised when they broke up a few months later. He might have broken it off earlier, except that she was his first love and he didn’t have the handy excuse that his employer wanted to send him abroad for a year.

    He and I don’t run into each other any longer, but if we did, I think I’d send him straight to Detinennui32’s “Letter to My Son” that Danny has on his blog. I don’t embrace the There Will Always Be Another Woman refrain without reservations, but if there was ever any man who needed to hear it, it was this guy.

  • Stingray

    Stephanie,

    I think if he got sent that book anonymously, he would be utterly humiliated. He would know someone out there realizes what is going on and he would be mortified. She is not always awful to him. She takes care of him and loves him too. I’ve seen this, as well. Please don’t think she is always a shrew. But she can be and it’s horrible. I really think the only way he will read this is if I can somehow, quickly, pull him aside and tell him about it. Anything anonymous will be tossed aside as garbage after a humiliation. I don’t want to do that to him. He may be coming out to help us with something around our house and I am hoping to tell him about it then. It’s such a touchy thing, but how can I not tell him, when I know it will help his marriage?

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @VD
    I congratulate you on the white noise avoidance, but if you don’t understand something, please feel free to simply ask.

    Thank you. I’m working on growing a thicker skin, and if all goes well, I hope to pop up in your threads sooner rather than later. :)

  • Anonymous

    Stingray, you should be honest with her and tell her that it’s not good to treat her husband that way, but also let her know that you understand why she’s losing attraction to her husband (his supplicating beta behavior). Sit her down and have a heart-to-heart, and educate her about how she might regain her attraction if she treats her husband well. And get her husband to read Athol.

    You have nothing to lose since it sounds like the friendship has already been strained. It is better to have tried and failed than to sit on the sidelines all day wondering what if. If she treats you well, then she has the ability to treat her husband well, too. Besides that, she is probably not happy with the situation either, but doesn’t know how to get it straightened out.

    Do it from a place of compassion and love, and don’t be afraid if your friend lashes out at you. Relationships are tough enough even knowing all the truths (my husband and I both know about the “game” stuff), so why let people languish and suffer blindly?

    It distresses you to see this happening, and you do have the ability to do something about it. So do it, and do it delicately, without judgement, and without beating yourself up if things still don’t work out. You know your good intentions, so try your best to convey it to others without seeming “know-it-all.” Convey it as a possibility, maybe, try this, instead of forcing it. Do the best you can.

    And if it’s too uncomfortable, maybe try to get her to see a pro-marriage therapist that knows game… but I doubt there are many out there.

  • Some Handle

    She can get away with it because he lets her. He lets her because he thinks he is doing the right thing. Logically speaking, it is hard to be mad at either of them because it is both their faults and neither of their faults.

    Stingray, honestly, it is BOTH there faults? Before you answer that question, I want you to think of this:
    – Every After School Special
    – (almost) Every Lifetime movie
    – (almost) Every Hallmark movie
    – Every Sitcom (Cosby Show [father is a well natured goof], Everybody Loves Raymond [hen pecked goof/husband], Home Improvement [father and husband s always doing something stupid], King of Queens [even worse than the others], etc)
    – Every “Take Back the Night”
    – Every school offering of “Date Rape” awareness sessions
    – Every Oprah, Donahue, etc.
    – God, this list goes on

    Everyone of these things has the Father/Husband/Boyfriend as being the idiot/good-natured-dolt/bad-guy/selfish-prick/etc.

    It is absolutely everywhere…which is why it is so often referred to as “taking the red pill”, because it is like getting smacked so hard your whole view of life does a 180.

    Now, again, before you answer that question, think of this question: which of those two in your story do you think was honestly trying to do the right thing?

    If you think that both of them were, fine. But I bet that you think that only one of them was.

    They are absolutely not both to blame…unless he already knew Game and still acted that way.

  • Stingray

    Stephanie,

    Thanks and I appreciate the ideas. I know it needs to be done, but it is not something I am looking forward to.

  • Anonymous

    Stingray, as for pulling the husband aside by himself, if that’s a possibility then it may be better. Tell him first that you really care about your friend, and that you want her and the husband to have a good marriage. Say that she has been complaining about the marriage (without going into specifics), and that you know of a guy named Athol Kay who has helped people (write the name down on a blank paper). Tell him to go to Amazon and search for it (Amazon won’t put people off). Conclude with “don’t tell her that we had this conversation. I just want you two to be happy.” Then switch subjects to kids or the house or yardwork…

    Some Handle, some people are trapped in a pattern because it’s all they know. Even after taking the red pill, I still made a ton of mistakes. That’s probably not the case here, but there are people who know fast food is bad for them yet can’t help engorging.

  • Stingray

    Some Handle,

    Yes, I do think they both carry some blame. MAYBE she carries more of it, but you know what? She watched the same stuff and was influenced by the same things as him. Every bad thing they were telling him they were telling her as well. It is just as easy for a woman to get mixed up by the shows as it is for a man. The theory is that men are comfortable in a place of dominance and the woman in a place of submission, right? This is the crux of game. These shows turned both women and men around. Both men and women were taught to go against their natures. So yes, it is his fault as well, because I believe it is in his nature to be dominate and he ignored it. It is also not his fault because why would he not listen to what nearly the whole world is telling him? But the same goes for her. She is ignoring her nature, and that is her fault. But again, why would she ignore what the world is telling her? I believe they are both to blame and neither is.

  • Stingray

    Anonymous,

    That is my plan for my conversation with him. I just hope he really doesn’t tell her. I truly believe he will have more success if he does this without her knowing. And then, when things improve, if he is so moved, then tell her about it. We’ll see how it goes.

  • Kurt

    I suspect that women are overwhelmingly the ones who use this excuse:
    It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I suspect that women are overwhelmingly the ones who use this excuse:
      It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.

      I’ve only heard it once, from a guy.

  • Some Handle

    Some Handle, some people are trapped in a pattern because it’s all they know. Even after taking the red pill, I still made a ton of mistakes. That’s probably not the case here, but there are people who know fast food is bad for them yet can’t help engorging.

    What, exactly, are you responding to?

  • Some Handle

    Every bad thing they were telling him they were telling her as well.

    His role model (to follow this analogy) is of lovable goof.

    Her role model was of the goof’s wife, which was, until lately, that of a nice woman. Not some bitch.

    Again, I will ask the question: which of those two in your story do you think was honestly trying to do the right thing?

    But again, why would she ignore what the world is telling her?

    Those sitcoms (to pick just one example) were not telling her to be a bitch. Mrs Huxtable on the Cosby show (the most popular show of it’s era) was nice…with a smile she would acknowledge her husbands goofiness. The Patricia Richardson character on Home Improvement (the most husband and wife show of it’s era) was nice. Again, she would smile at her husbands goofiness.

  • detinennui32

    It’s funny how nearly every thread here of late becomes a clearinghouse for men’s and women’s complaints about each other.

    After about 6 months in the manosphere, it’s become crystal clear the frustration and exasperation level on both ends long ago reached critical mass. Eighty percent of men can’t even get a date, much less a blowjob. Most of the women are giving those blowjobs to about 15% of the men, but damn unhappy about it because all they’re getting is sex and not much else.

    The homely women have to put out to get any kind of male attention. The hot women can’t get attention because the alphas they should be shtupping are banging the average-looking women because it’s easier. The average women are getting sluttier and then are too dense to figure out why a partner count of 30 or higher keeps them from getting even an average beta who doesn’t want exposure to their petri dish vajayjays hosting God knows what organisms, nor does even a Mr. Beta want to pay full price for used and damaged goods. 4 women go around acting, talking and thinking like they are 7s or 8s, all because one alpha ejaculated on her stomach one night two years ago in sophomore year. Most all of them act, talk and swear like men.

    And we men aren’t much better. Most of us can’t figure out what in the hell we want to do with our lives. Some of us have no life plan at all beyond knowledge of the downtown bars and “getting it in” with whatever bottom feeder slut we can find. No plan for education, mastering a trade or a skill, cultivating an interesting pastime, or earning more money than you need for your beers and shots. We can’t speak in complete sentences and have never done anything more interesting than try beer bonging. Most of us couldn’t DHV to save our lives. We dress for shit. We go to bars or parties, we don’t know the IOIs, and don’t even try talking to girls. When we do try to chat up a girl, we talk like unintelligent dolts with nothing interesting to say and don’t run any damn game at all. We get fat, we don’t take care of ourselves, and we don’t care. Half of us are sitting around pounding our collective puds watching XHamster.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @detinennui32
      This is going to sound really strange, but your minor rant cheered me up. I don’t know why – maybe it’s because we’re all on a sinking ship together. Or maybe I think we’re hitting rock bottom and it can only get better from here.

      Today my son, who is in a LTR, was telling me that most of his guy friends (24-25) aren’t dating anyone or even doing anything to meet someone. They’re “hoping something good will happen.” It really is that vague, and just incredibly passive. Most young women I know are behaving the same way. That’s not going to fly in this SMP.

      The world must be peopled, but that requires risk, and vulnerability, and resilience just to get in the door. Neither sex is taking that on right now. Even the alphas and sluts aren’t doing that, they’re having sex without those things.

  • detinennui32

    Women can’t seem to win. If she’s homely, she has to put out and the only attention she gets is as a semen receptacle and only on the downlow. If she’s a 9 or 10, she’s either a kind, good hearted woman but totally and completely out of our league; or a complete stuck up bitch. If she’s average, she’s just a face in the crowd unless she has above average sexual skills; but she had to have honed those skills somewhere. She gets too good or too experienced, and she’s now a slut. Women are told they have to “have it all” and “never settle”, and then in no time at all she’s 29, working a dead end cubicle HR job, with a partner count of 10 to 15, her bio-clock is roaring like a freight train, and the wall is getting closer by the second.

    Men can’t seem to win either (except for alphas. Everyone loves them. It’s just the 80 to 90% of men who can’t win.) STEM majors or Magic: the Gathering world champions can’t get a date; and no amount of job success, status or DHV overcomes it. If he’s a beta, he’s worthless, unless the woman is 30 and hit the wall and has the baby rabies after her 10-15 previous partners wouldn’t man up and give her a ring, and then he’s OK to be a wage slave for the wife and her kids (and it’s a decent chance those kids aren’t his). If he’s a “nice guy” he’s worse than a beta, because he’s not really nice; he’s just faking being nice so he can catch the girl off guard and take advantage of her. Or, if he’s not faking being nice, he’s unattractive and therefore an outcast. Either way, a “nice guy” is “creepy”.

    A man who earns good money but works long hours is “neglectful” of his woman and “emotionally unavailable” to her. A man who chooses a profession that does not pay as well but permits him to be at home frequently is a “kitchen bitch”. A man who is not very good at talking or just doesn’t want to do it all the time is “emotionally retarded” or an “aspie”. A man who chooses to go his own way and not marry is “irresponsible” and “not doing his duty”. A man who has surveyed the wreckage of the current American SMP and wants no part of it other than the occasional “hookup” is “afraid of commitment”, “not a real man” and a “juvenile” who needs to “man up” for the sake of a woman. Relationships are all about what the woman wants, with no consideration at all given to what the man would like from his relationship with his woman.

  • Leanne

    @Detinennui32

    You nailed it.

  • Stingray

    To answer your question, I would say that the husband is trying to do the right thing by his wife. But in her own way, she is doing what she thinks she is supposed to by todays standards. To go back to your own examples, you don’t remember Sandra’s fiance in The Cosby Show trying to be a strong man and thinking men were better at most things and how he was constantly being ripped a new one and being proven wrong? The message was always that women can do anything a man can do and do it better. That is what my friend is trying to do. And Patricia Richardsons character? You seriously don’t remember that whenever she and Tim Allen had a fight that she was NEVER wrong? Not one time can I really remember her being in the wrong. This is the way a lot of women think they are supposed to be. Never wrong. All of those sitcoms were like that. Strong women who did it all and were never wrong and their marriages were still perfect. This is what my friend is trying to be.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stingray,

    Not reasoning with a woman about something she did was wrong is something Im still trying to learn. It just doesnt work.

    Most of the time walking away is the winning move.

  • detinennui32

    Why men can’t win cont’d: And if a beta starts learning game, bumping up his confidence and gaining alpha traits, well, he’s no good either. He’s just a “fake” alpha, he’s only doing it to get laid, and he’s defrauding women thinking they are getting to sleep with a “real” alpha. Plus, if he’s a “fake” alpha, then he’s going around taking what doesn’t belong to him because the women only want to slut it up for the “real” alphas.

  • Hellhath

    @detinennui32

    Frustrating but true… but added into the mix. Most men (myself included) of the last 30-40 years have little if any understanding of themselves as masculine creatures. The lucky few have healthy male role-models, active and engaged fathers to after which to pattern themselves. The rest have absent fathers or at best ones inadequate to the task of bestowing manhood upon them. I have family members raised in single parent households (by their mothers) who have are trying to make their sons into good “husbands” but not good men. I watch and talk to males that get into their 30s before they even question the lack of hard edges, boundaries, identities, of their overwhelming “too niceness”. I see males who are not men, trapped not only in their ignorance but in their blindness about their ignorance. It takes considerable work and determination to scrape off the layers and unlearn all this. Some of us take the red pill in tiny doses, portion after portion, trying hard to section off reality where it we don’t want to believe it applies. Including ourselves, including ourselves.

  • Leanne

    Women only get stuck on the fake or real alpha for one reason. The contempt factor. Natural alphas don’t generally have the contempt for women that learned alphas have.

  • detinennui32

    So how about this for a solution?

    Men: Stop reading this. Get up from the computer, shower, shave, wash your nutsack, get dressed, and go talk to women. Go to a bar or a coffee shop and chat up who you see. Stop whacking off to internet porn. Get something more interesting to talk about than World of Warcraft or the Star Trek convention. Lose the weight, tone up just a little, get a haircut, and buy a goddamn decent looking shirt. That girl you like who works on the next floor up in your building and you see her on the elevator every day? TALK TO HER. ASK HER TO GET A DRINK AFTER WORK. That girl you saw at the bar who smiled at you? That’s an IOI, numbnuts. GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND GO SAY HI TO HER. OK, you’ve talked to them? Now repeat that 20 times. OK you’ve done that? Now go do it again 40 more times. A little less time you watch TV, a little more time you hike at the state park. A little less you surf the internet, a little more time you spend with some people who share some common interest. Spend the money and go somewhere. Go anywhere. Go someplace where you have to get in your car or on a plane and actually go somewhere where other people gather or congregate and do interesting things. And for shit’s sake, figure out what your life plan is. Why are you here? What do you want to do with this life? What is your mission? What do you feel or believe you are called to do, or be? And give that mission your all. Give it 110%. Pursue it with everything you have. Be willing to look at it, revise it, alter it, or abandon it and get a new one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @detinennui re part II at 8:18

      With some minor adjustments, this could equally apply to women. Smile at the guy on the elevator. Tease the guy at work in a friendly way. Ask your cute coworker if he wants to grab a bite during a break in a busy day. Get out and make eye contact with everyone you can. Smile and people, chat them up. Not just hot guys, everyone. The old lady at the cleaners. The little kid at the frozen yogurt place. The ironic hipster teen at Peet’s. Stop averting your eyes and rejoin the human race!

      A very pretty young woman was talking with me recently and she got a little teary. She said, “Susan, I don’t know why, but guys just don’t like me. Sometimes they’ll walk up to me and say hello, and we chat briefly and then they awkwardly say, “OK, well I’m gonna go find my friend now.” Five minutes after meeting me they completely lose interest.”

      It doesn’t make sense to me. She’s got very good and feminine social skills. What you’ve said makes me wonder if it’s not like the thread about Adam and Connor – in other words, the guy is paralyzed with fear and runs out of things to say quickly so he wanders away. Meanwhile, she’s feeling like chopped liver. Everyone goes home without a number, or even having had a good convo.

      Now I’m depressed again.

  • Stingray

    Yohami,

    Ha! Yeah, my husband is king of walking away and it used to DRIVE ME CRAZY. When we first married, I remember thinking how is it that I am always wrong? It is not supposed to be this way. I’m the woman! Guess where I got that little bit of information? (thank you Patricia Richardson) Scary thing? I was never really a feminist and still thought this way.

    But yes, just walk away. If you are in a LTR you may want to give her one shot at reasoning if you think she can take it. My husband often did and if I wouldn’t listen I got that oh-so-wonderful look of “your just being irrational” and he’d walk away. It works though. In that time, I would think about everything, and while it always took awhile I was usually able to reason through what he was trying to tell me and where I was wrong. After 12 years, we don’t fight much any more. Oh sure, we can still piss each other off royally but we usually just get away from each other, get over it and it’s done. Usually this only happens over piddly crap and there is nothing to even talk about afterwards. It’s really nice.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Detinennui32

    If nobody can win–whether alpha or beta, pretty or homely, promiscuous or patient, “real” or “fake,” single or married–then what is the point of reading blogs like Susan’s, asking for advice, and any of us even trying to get along with each other?

  • Stingray

    Bellita,

    Because, every so often, people do win, and they are happy.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Detinennui32

    Never mind. We just cross-posted.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Stingray

    I believe that, too. I was just wondering where Deti was going this time. :)

  • Some Handle

    To go back to your own examples, you don’t remember Sandra’s fiance in The Cosby Show trying to be a strong man and thinking men were better at most things and how he was constantly being ripped a new one and being proven wrong?

    Yes, thank you, that is exactly my point.

    On the most popular sitcom of all time, the (ridiculous) Alpha Male was consistently shown to be a buffoon and was smacked down, but (and this is important) the nice man, Cliff Huxtable, while goofy, was smiled upon by his wife and family. He was treated well (unlike the nice man in your story).

    Alpha = Bad and Bitched
    Nice = Good (though, goofy) and treated well.

  • Some Handle

    You seriously don’t remember that whenever she and Tim Allen had a fight that she was NEVER wrong?

    Oh, I don’t disagree. Men are complete idiots. But, idiots that, generally, meant well, and were treated nicely by there significant others. She was always giggling and smiling at him. Their disagreements never involved bitchiness.

  • Some Handle

    [One more stupid man...let me try that again]

    To go back to your own examples, you don’t remember Sandra’s fiance in The Cosby Show trying to be a strong man and thinking men were better at most things and how he was constantly being ripped a new one and being proven wrong?

    Yes, thank you, that is exactly my point.

    On the most popular sitcom of all time, the (ridiculous) Alpha Male was consistently shown to be a buffoon and was smacked down, but (and this is important) the nice man, Cliff Huxtable, while goofy, was smiled upon by his wife and family. He was treated well (unlike the nice man in your story).

    Alpha = Bad and Bitched
    Nice = Good (though, goofy) and treated well.

  • Stingray

    Some Handle,

    Ok, yes. You are right there. So your examples fits for where you seem to be saying men these days get the idea that they are supposed to be beta. They will be treated well as in these sitcoms. But, you seriously can’t see that women would relate to the strong women in these sitcoms, where they were never wrong, were stronger and smarter than the alpha male and usually head of the family and think that they should be like that too?

    You seem to be saying that these shows taught men to be betas but did nothing to teach women about how they should act as well. It was not just men watching these shows and picking up cues of how they thought relationships work.

  • Some Handle

    Bellita,

    If nobody can win–whether alpha or beta

    Actually, he already answered your question:

    Men can’t seem to win either (except for alphas)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Some Handle

    I guess I thought he was being ironic! Although I suppose I’d still ask what the point of trying is if only alphas get to win.

  • detinennui32

    And how about this for women’s solution?

    Do not go to your Facebook page. Put down that romance novel with Fabio on the cover and stop watching the emo-porn. No more Sex and the City, no EPL, no People, no US Weekly, no Cosmo. You don’t need to know 10 new Kegel exercises or five new oral sex techniques; what you need is a good haircut and better makeup. You don’t need to know what or who Kim Kardashian is doing now; what you need is to clean up your vocabulary and keep your weight at a reasonable level. You don’t need a Louis Vuitton handbag; what you need is a decent wardrobe for your body type. You don’t need a $100,000 a year wage slave job; what you need is a kind, pleasant personality and a positive life outlook.

    Stop slutting it up with alphas. They don’t love you, they aren’t going to propose to you, and they aren’t going to spend the rest of their lives with you. You know by now that ISN’T. GOING. TO. HAPPEN if you’ve read this site for more than a week. The most you’re going to get is a place in a soft harem where you can be kicked out at any moment. More likely, what you’ll get is one or two pretty good orgasms (maybe) and bragging rights. Stop slutting it up, period. KEEP YOUR PARTNER COUNT LOW. You don’t have to be a virgin, but for God’s sake, if what you want is a relationship leading possibly to marriage, the chances of that plummet as you rack up partners.

    You are not special. You are just a woman, just like about 3 billion others on this planet. The world does not revolve around you, and neither does a man’s life. Your vagina is not gold plated and you are not the land of milk and honey. In fact, the fact that you have a vagina ain’t really no great shakes. If you’re too much hassle, you can be replaced. So make it worth a man’s while. Show him good reasons — REALLY, REALLY good reasons — why he should invest valuable time, money and resources in you. Stop it with the games, the power plays, the flaking, the incessant fitness testing, the entitlement crap, and the snowflaking. Give us a break with the attention whoring, the status whoring, and the 750 duckface and faux gang sign pictures of you and your 500 BFFs on Facebook. Put an end to dancing on the bar tables, swearing like sailors, and ballbusting every man in sight.

    Be kind, pleasant, supportive, and positive. Don’t be crass, sarcastic, caustic, rude, vulgar, profane, abrasive or gossipy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      detinennui is on a roll. I feel like he should run for office.

  • Some Handle

    But, you seriously can’t see that women would relate to the strong women in these sitcoms, where they were never wrong, were stronger and smarter than the alpha male and usually head of the family and think that they should be like that too?

    Look, you said that they are both to blame, for which I followed up with a very simple question. Without knowing the couple or having ever met them, I could guess the answer…only the nice guy was honestly trying to do the right thing, and the empowered girl was not.

    You can slice it however you want, but sooner or later it starts to look really bad.

    You seem to be saying that these shows taught men to be betas but did nothing to teach women about how they should act as well.

    I am not sure how many more times I can say this…the various wives and girlfriends on these shows were nice. Instead of being Stepford-like and vapid, they were smart and nice. They treated their husbands and families with decency.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    You know, Deti is starting to cheer me up, too. Seriously. :)

  • Some Handle

    Although I suppose I’d still ask what the point of trying is if only alphas get to win.

    Remember, girls don’t have to blow the alphas.

    Find yourself a nice accountant/engineer/programmer/etc. and settle down.

  • Some Handle

    Today my son, who is in a LTR, was telling me that most of his guy friends (24-25) aren’t dating anyone or even doing anything to meet someone. They’re “hoping something good will happen.” It really is that vague, and just incredibly passive.

    You should turn them on to Roissy and Roosh (or Neil Strauss or Mystery or Matador or whomever). Encourage them and talk to them openly about it. I bet they would love to hear it from a woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You should turn them on to Roissy and Roosh (or Neil Strauss or Mystery or Matador or whomever). Encourage them and talk to them openly about it. I bet they would love to hear it from a woman.

      I don’t really have access at this point. My son isn’t at home, his friends don’t come around here at this age. He said that sometimes he wonders if he settled too early with one girl – he is with his first serious gf. But then he realizes that he has so much more going on than these guys – he feels fortunate and has zero interest in getting single to do what they’re doing. (None of these guys are natural alphas, obviously.) He and I talk a lot about these issues, not surprisingly. Mostly that takes the form of my letting him know when he’s being shit tested and must respond with strength.

      I know my daughter’s guy friends read the blog, but they’re a bit sheepish about it too. They don’t want to talk to a woman face to face. And I’m certain none of them talk to their mothers about this stuff.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Some Handle

    Put landscaper on that list and I’ll cosign it. ;)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Susan
    Today my son, who is in a LTR, was telling me that most of his guy friends (24-25) aren’t dating anyone or even doing anything to meet someone. They’re “hoping something good will happen.” It really is that vague, and just incredibly passive. Most young women I know are behaving the same way. That’s not going to fly in this SMP.

    Here’s a great analogy I read, addressed to women but equally applicable to men.

    To all those women hoping that a good man will just show up and make the romance happen . . . Do you imagine that a good university will just send you a letter asking you to enroll and make your education happen?

    The practical applications can be taken right out of Deti’s great rant.

  • Stingray

    Some Handle,

    Ok, I see where I messed up and I apologize. My friend does treat her family AND her husband with love and decency much of the time as well. She truly does. She stays home, homeschools her kids, cooks, cleans, and I see her love on her husband often, too. Obviously, you couldn’t know that, but I did try to (too briefly, I think) say it before. But she does get confused, in large part because she think she is supposed to be this strong, never wrong woman. And her husband, won’t stand up to her to put her in her place. I honestly think she has no idea what to do, so she lashes out. Is she wrong to do so? Absolutely. It’s what is putting a strain on our friendship. But all the good stuff you have ever seen in those TV shows I have seen her do time and again. (It’s my fault for not adding that earlier, sorry) And I have seen him do it time and again as well. BUT, they both do things inappropriate that were never on those shows. He’s not perfect either. I’ll admit that I tend to have more sympathy for him and maybe painted him in too good light, but he’s by no means a perfect husband (and it is not just being beta that I am talking about) to her not perfect wife.

    Anyway, sorry for leaving too much out.

  • Some Handle

    …the guy is paralyzed with fear and runs out of things to say quickly so he wanders away.

    Susan, sit down for a second, I got a story for you.

    I once dated a girl who was quite sweet, but not that pretty. She wasn’t bad looking, but she had a large butt and very thick legs.

    Well, one time she was trying to “spice things up” and bought some thong underwear, and, after I came home from school she was waiting for me wearing nothing but that and showing me what she got. It was not hot.

    I simply smiled and gave her a big kiss, told her how great it was that she did that and then told her that thongs were not my thing. I said, let’s hang out for a bit and then we will have some fun (I wanted a little bit of time to clear my head, since it was racing with various thoughts).

    Well, years later I relayed a story like this on Roissy’s board and asked the girls how they would react if a guy had tried something similar (not a thong, but something appropriate for a man). Well, something like 6 or 7 girls replied and all of them, all of them, said that they would have laughed.

    Back in school, I lived on a floor with almost all girls and I can not tell you how often they got together to cackle about what the latest loser had done. (I am reminded of an episode of The Wonder Years where the Fred Savage character calls a girl to ask her out, she says ‘No’ and then turns to all of her girlfriends, who just happen to be congregated in her room, to laugh about how pathetic he is…it was a dream, well, nightmare, sequence)

    Add to this the various girls berating their guys about parking spaces, smacking their guys in the back of the heads…

    Susan, do you remember hearing the words “creepy”, “gross”, “pathetic”, “loser”, etc 30 years ago as much as you do today? Honestly.

    Add to this:
    – Slutwalks
    – Take back the night
    – Date Rape awareness
    – Girls appropriating more and more male norms (Pants, Short Hair, Tattoos, heavy drinking, bulking up, or somethimes just a basic lack of femininity)

    I could make that preceding list very long, but, you get the idea.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Some Handle

      Well, one time she was trying to “spice things up” and bought some thong underwear, and, after I came home from school she was waiting for me wearing nothing but that and showing me what she got. It was not hot.

      Oh no! Haha, this sounds like the movie Shallow Hal with the ginormous thong.

      You were really very kind in that instance. I don’t have any difficulty believing that many women (perhaps most?) would be cruel, though some might just be nervous or awkward. I have to admit I’m laughing thinking about a guy opening the door in a thong. Thinking about it, there’s something a bit effete about the idea of a man lying in wait with nothing on. It’s sexier to think of a guy standing there with all his clothes on and telling me to take mine off. Now.

      Susan, do you remember hearing the words “creepy”, “gross”, “pathetic”, “loser”, etc 30 years ago as much as you do today? Honestly.

      Absolutely not. We had assortative mating, and about 80% of guys were in the mix, I’d say. That meant only 20% were “have nots.” Today we have the inverse, and with feminists (and women in general) acting more assertive/aggressive, name calling by women has increased as well.

      I mentioned this recently, but in case you missed it: my local police blotter recently reported a call by a woman. She called the police because a man on a corner had “given her a look.” The report stated that they had searched for the man but found no one suspicious. I’m sure some guy either noticed her and looked at her, or perhaps was looking at something else entirely, and she’s got the police looking for him! He probably went about his business blissfully unaware of this ridiculousness.

  • Some Handle

    Put landscaper on that list and I’ll cosign it.

    Your comment is funnier than you think.

    Accountant
    Engineer
    Programmer

    Landscaper

    Beta, Beta, Beta, seasonal, low-paying manual labor GOOSE

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Some Handle

    A point very similar to yours was made on another blog I can’t remember, in response to a woman who said something like: “I despise feminism and would never support it. Why am I being punished for it, too?”

    In any case, relationships don’t happen in a vacuum, and we all end up paying for things that are not directly our own fault.

  • Some Handle

    Ok, I see where I messed up and I apologize. My friend does treat her family AND her husband with love and decency much of the time as well.

    I never thought she was a complete bitch…just cherry-picking from the approved role models.

    And her husband, won’t stand up to her to put her in her place.

    Nor would a man on the Cosby Show (or some other approved bit of popular culture), well, except for that aforementioned idiot that was always smacked down.

    …she lashes out. He’s not perfect either.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Some Handle
    Beta, Beta, Beta, seasonal, low-paying manual labor GOOSE

    I’m always embarrassed when someone has to explain a punchline to me, but this is one of those times!

  • Some Handle

    “I despise feminism and would never support it. Why am I being punished for it, too?”

    Do you think that those girls I overheard at Barnes and Noble the other day refering to various guys as being “gross” were feminists? Or, the girl that Susan has seen “reject plenty of good guys and hold out for asshats” was a feminist.

    Feminists make up a small, though very loud, minority in the western world.

  • detinennui32

    I’m detinennui and I approve these messages.

  • Some Handle

    Susan, does your son turn the guys on to Roissy et al?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Some Handle
      I’m pretty sure he doesn’t read Roissy himself. He does own The Game, and I’ve discussed Game with him many times. I think he hasn’t fully explored it because he’s relatively happy with his lot right now. If his relationship were to end, my guess is he’d be all over it. He is a person who has overcome shyness, Game would serve him well. He does seem fairly dominant in his relationship – I guess he’s a “greater beta” according to Roissy.

  • Stingray

    “just cherry-picking from the approved role models.”

    Yes, this is absolutely what she does and why I get so upset with her.

    “Nor would a man on the Cosby Show”

    Yes you’re right, and I just had a thought about this. Maybe I’m a complete loon, but maybe she lashes out because she feels something along the lines of “Ok, I’ve done what I am supposed to do, been the strong, never wrong wife (Richardson) and something is still not working right. Maybe if I lash out at him, he’ll lash back out at me and take control like I need him to. After all, if I lose patience, he has to at some point too, right?”

    Logical, no. But I could seriously see my friend thinking something like this might work. And then when it doesn’t she just maintains the control because she feels she has too and just can’t let go of the frustration of having that control.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Some Handle

    I don’t mean to blame only feminists. In fact, in this context, I don’t mean to blame anyone. I was paraphrasing the woman because that long comment you just left might as well have been a direct reply to her.

    She was asking, essentially, “Why is this (male rejection) happening to me? I’m pretty, feminine, pleasant and kind!” And she was told that it’s because other women haven’t been pretty, feminine, pleasant and kind–and that if a man meets enough of them before he meets her, she’s going to end up paying the price as well.

  • SayWhaat

    Sorry I’m late to the party guys, work’s been hectic so I’m frazzled as hell.

    Anyways, just figured I’d pop in and break up the sausage-fest a little.

    the guy is paralyzed with fear and runs out of things to say quickly so he wanders away. Meanwhile, she’s feeling like chopped liver. Everyone goes home without a number, or even having had a good convo.

    Tell her to say, “well this was fun! We should hang sometime.” Or smile and say, “you should get my number before I go.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Tell her to say, “well this was fun! We should hang sometime.” Or smile and say, “you should get my number before I go.”

      Brilliant. I especially like the second suggestion.

      I’m so sorry you’ve been overworked! I hope you’ll have a fun, relaxing weekend.

      Badger, if you want it, come get it. You’ve already got my email, fool.

      SayWhaat has thrown down the gauntlet! Is Badger man enough to take on the challenge? Tune in next time to find out!

  • SayWhaat

    Speaking of numbers…

    Badger, if you want it, come get it. You’ve already got my email, fool.

  • detinennui32

    Hellhath: YOu are exactly right. I’ve posted here and elsewhere about discovering 6 months ago that everything — EVERYTHING — my parents, ministers, teachers and other authority figures told me about girls and women was a complete lie, bordering on criminal fraud. The truth is exactly 180 degrees from what I was taught as a junior high school kid. My dad is a good man. He just doesn’t know much about women. And his being a beta married to a decent but domineering woman certainly didn’t help. So not only did I not know, I didn’t know that I didn’t know. I could not figure out for the life of me why my buddies, two of whom were natural alphas, could show up at a house party and make something happen inside of 10 minutes, while I’m over here keeping a spot warm by the keg and the best line I can come up with is “what’s your major?” No one ever told me anything. So I have to stumble across it on the internet by accident before I find out anything about game, beta males, hypergamy, or rationalization hamsters.

    I just hope younger and younger men learn this. I’m teaching my 5 year old son to chat up the cheerleaders at the high school football and basketball games. He will learn how to talk to girls if it kills me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @detinennui

      So I have to stumble across it on the internet by accident before I find out anything about game, beta males, hypergamy, or rationalization hamsters.

      That was a very fortuitous accident. The red pill can only make your life better if you accept the truth.

      I’m teaching my 5 year old son to chat up the cheerleaders at the high school football and basketball games. He will learn how to talk to girls if it kills me.

      Way to go. He’s going to be way ahead of the game, because most young men today are even more clueless than your generation. It’s getting worse with time.

  • Some Handle

    Maybe I’m a complete loon, but maybe she lashes out because she …

    You can try to explain her specific behavior, or simply see that she acts like so, so many other girls. No need for a one-off when a more general answer will do: she does not want a man to follow the rules that were absolutely laid out for him to follow. She fantasizes about being “ravaged” and wants him to be capable of doing that. And, if he can be hen-pecked, then he ain’t that man.

    In short,
    – Don’t be Cliff Huxtable
    – Don’t be Tim Taylor
    – Don’t be Ray Romano

    – BE A FUCKING VAMPIRE (or whatever)

  • Stingray

    “It’s getting worse with time.”

    This is utterly depressing.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    SayWhaat maintains she’s never turned down a date or rejected a friendly advance. But she’s clearly dodged Badger’s attempts to get her number.
    So what’s going on? Did you just make your first rejection? Or did you reject him without realizing it?

    @OTC the last I heard SayWhaat said, “Well, he does have my email address.…”

    So who’s turn is it?

  • Stingray

    “BE A FUCKING VAMPIRE (or whatever)”

    Yup. You got it.

    “simply see that she acts like so, so many other girls.”

    I do see it and it angers me, but I think in this case it is harder for me to accept because she is my friend.

  • I thought *I* was Bob

    Frankly, most women I interact with on a daily basis don’t even see a need to be an active partner in conversations let alone learn how to initiate it.

    This is not a new problem.

  • Leanne

    @ Stephanie

    A post about what drama means to guys could be interesting. Potential agreement on some things, fireworks on others.

  • GudEnuf

    What would any man have to learn from Roissy? Nothing. The blogger literally has no action plan. All he has is an attitude. He gained popularity by stirring up drama, and ever since Lady Raine he isn’t even good at that anymore.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      ever since Lady Raine he isn’t even good at that anymore.

      Well, he’s probably still very good, but he’s not writing much, I don’t think. Recently I caught one post that I felt sure must have been written by him, it was excellent. I don’t read there regularly, but guys here will sometimes link to posts there and I feel like the brilliance is just gone. Roissy peaked in 2008-2009 (the blog, not the man).

      I’ve heard he’s in love. He’s got to be about 45 now. I’m looking for a happy ending – marriage.

  • Lavazza

    “Mostly that takes the form of my letting him know when he’s being shit tested and must respond with strength.”

    You are a wise woman, Susan.

    And this is also to your son’s GF’s benefit.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Stephenie

    It would be interesting if Susan made a post about what does DRAMA! mean for guys.

    Noted.

    Your husband’s definition of drama is interesting, I’m curious to see if others consider any and all BS drama. When I think about making drama, there’s an emotional component – big, big emotions. So overreacting is a big one, probably the most frequent cause of drama. Throwing hissy fits about things that are really not that big a deal. This often comes from unreasonable expectations. For example, you don’t want your boyfriend to attend a party his ex will be at, even though he’s not given any sign of being the least bit tempted to interact with his ex. Or you get majorly pissed off when your guy has nights out with his friends, as if he is your valet or something.

    A lot of women create drama to test the male’s commitment, i.e. shit tests. Both sexes sometimes create conflict for this purpose, and when the makeup sex is good, that can begin a sort of addictive cycle of fighting and making up, even having rough sex while very angry can be habit forming.

    Finally, a lot of drama is made by emotionally unstable people. They’re just nuts, it’s a major red flag. In my experience, men making drama fall into this last category, YMMV.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    Badger Badger Badger Badger said: “Yet it’s clear from Susan’s experience, mine and many others that young women are not at all interested in going outside their own comfort zones into the masculine arena – they don’t want to approach and risk rejection, they don’t want to initiate the DTR talk, they don’t want to learn to communicate to men in the male style, yet they ask (and expect) men to do the converse.”

    Dogsquat said: That’s an interesting point, and one I agree with (NAWALT, of course). Why, though, do you think that is? How did we get here? I don’t think one can point solely to feminism, since I know many women like this who’ve never wasted a calorie thinking about gender. Is it biological in nature? Is there some evolutionary advantage to this behavior? Is it a result of an increasingly complex society with hugely more opportunities to communicate?

    =======-
    For me, there are several reasons:

    1. Men think very differently about things then women do. Most women don’t realize how large the gap is, and they don’t know enough to ask about the differences.

    2. Added to that, most men don’t talk to women about those differences…or there’s no avenue in real life to explore those differences. I answered this question on my blog by saying “What guy in real life is going to tell me straight up what ladder I’m on, or what my number is to him? Or what slice of pizza I’m on? (And this is why I like the manosphere and men in them so much: you all do).
    When I married my husband, I got the pure, unfiltered male POV. Completely different than what I observed for myself. And now when I am in convo with single girlfriends and they say, “Well, guys think this, or that,” I jump in and say, “Yeah, they don’t care about that stuff, ” or “no, guys don’t think like that.” Before I was married, the male mind was a complete mystery to me—at least in terms of how they thought of women sexually.

    3. I don’t think people needed to know about these differences so explicitly before. Courtship rituals took care of everything. If one participated in that ritual then the next step was always clear. Who needed to talk about these things? People knew exactly what they were supposed to do. Now those rituals are gone, and it’s the wild, wild west.

    4. I agree that women should make more of an effort to engage with men. I issued a fall challenge. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bb

      Courtship rituals took care of everything. If one participated in that ritual then the next step was always clear. Who needed to talk about these things? People knew exactly what they were supposed to do. Now those rituals are gone, and it’s the wild, wild west.

      Agreed, we’ve lost the rituals and the scripts that went with them. And it’s not just courtship, either. Families are smaller, many people grow up without siblings of the opposite sex. Mothers work full-time, so boys don’t get that after-school time with mom the way they once did. Dad is stressed out, eating lunch at his desk, working late, so girls don’t get that brief chat before dinner where so much wisdom was imparted in my youth. Kids don’t play in the neighborhood – it’s all arranged playdates, which are usually single sex.

      In school, boys are shamed and girls are lauded, which sets up a competitive dynamic between the sexes, and resentment on the part of boys. Recess has been eliminated in some schools, so there’s not even a chance for boys and girls to play together in a physical way. When I was a kid, a boy pulling my braid was flirtation – I knew that meant he liked me. Today a boy will be marched straight to the principal’s office for the same thing.

      American children enter adolescence with a burgeoning sexual curiosity but also a wariness of one another. It’s not a recipe for healthy relationships.

  • Anonymous

    @Some Handle 9/9/11 @ 9:23 pm:

    You have a very good understanding of the current culture, its effect on women, and how women have changed. Twenty five years ago I was in college and we were in a mix of assortative mating with increasing hookup. On the one hand we had pairing off; on the other there was a sizable minority hooking up. We men had some women literally throwing themselves at us.

    On the Wonder Years episode where the Fred Savage character gets blown out: I can relate. Every guy I’ve ever known has a similar story of nuclear blowouts. But they were fewer and farther between then than today. Nowadays, you ask out a woman who doesn’t want to be approached or look a little too long, she sics the cops on you. What is that?

    And women are acting more and more like men. And we men don’t want to be around women who are just men with vaginas.

    Per my little rant above (I had just had ENOUGH), women fit into three basic groups: homely, average and hot. Let’s face it, ladies: if you’re “homely” it is almost certainly because you either (1) don’t dress well for your body type, or (2) have a terrible haircut or makeup, or (3) most often, are grossly overweight.

    The single most important reason is weight. I’m not talking about a little overweight, maybe 10 to 20 pounds. No, I’m talking obese — 50, 70, 100 or more pounds overweight. I’m struck by how many more obese young women age 30 and under there are today.

  • detinennui32

    Anon at 7:36 is me.

  • Stingray

    Thanks all for listening yesterday. I had a crappy week and really needed some good introspective time. I got a lot out of the discussions and appreciate it.

  • detinennui32

    Bb: “It would be interesting if Susan made a post about what does DRAMA! mean for guys. ”
    Susan: “I’m curious to see if others consider any and all BS drama.”

    Drama! is different from a woman’s regular emotional episodes. All women I’ve ever known have genuine crying jags, emotional episodes and hyperemotional meltdowns. They are real, she’s really feeling it, and she’s really hurt/angry/ upset/sad right now.

    Drama! is a histrionic, exaggerated and hyperemotional display put on specifically for fitness testing. It usually has one of a few purposes: (1) to goad someone near her into doing something for her, being something or saying something; (2) to gauge others’ reactions; or (3) to gauge her man’s reaction; to see how he handles a real emotional episode. She needs to know he can handle it when she really has a shit fit.

    Here’s how you can tell.
    1. If it’s in public, it is almost certainly Drama!. If it’s in private, it might be genuine but it could be Drama!.
    2. Is this the first time you’re seeing it? It’s probably Drama! because she needs to test you first. She is not going to show you real emotional breakdowns until after you’ve passed a Drama! test.
    3. Are the emotions especially overblown and hyperexaggerated? If so, this is most likely Drama!.
    4. How long have you been together? There is an inverse relationship between length of the relationship and the amount and frequency of Drama! episodes. The earlier you are in your relationship, the more likely this is Drama!.

    Here is what you do.

    1. Above all, DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT. Although everything about her says “I am HURTING/ANGRY/PISSED OFF/FRUSTRATED/SAD and I need you to FIX IT!! NOW!!! Don’t. She does not need you to fix Drama!. No one short of God Himself can fix Drama!.
    2. If in public, walk away. When she returns, tell her you won’t respond to a public Drama! outburst.
    3. If in private and it is the first time, don’t talk. Don’t react. Let her get it all out. Make sure she is done. Then quietly, calmly tell her you know this isn’t real, that she’s testing you, and that you know you’ve passed. You MUST, however, make sure that this is Drama! and not genuine. You will go down in flames if you tell her this in a genuine outburst. If this is a repeat Drama! episode, after it’s concluded, just walk away and don’t say anything.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Anonymous wrote:

    I’m simply mocking what you boys say to make you see how your own behavior is unattractive.

    Kari Hurtta wrote:

    This kind writing seems to be trend.

    I think that everyone is got that he is dread.

  • Lavazza

    On the way to a wedding with an ex fiancee she behaved really badly with a lot of drama, which I treated with indifference. Then at the wedding a friend’s wife stupidly asked when we were getting married. Intuitively seeing an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone, I told her, so that my ex fiancee and more people could hear, that for the moment I found that proposition highly unlikely, without giving any further information. Sometimes a man must clearly show that he’s not afraid to walk, if things don’t improve, and that a woman should not blast out whatever goes on in her mind, without reflection.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Badger,

    Jesus,

    “I think that if girls are going to initiate with a shy beta guy type, they need to have some comfort building strategies in place.”

    Read Susan’s wistful thread about ‘Casey’ – an extroverted, alpha-dating (which all but certainly means riding the carousel to some degree) chick tries to pick up a beta guy, with predictably disastrous results. It would be fairly funny if (a) it wasn’t real people and (b) it didn’t cause sympathetic pangs of pain in the men who have been in that situation *raises hand*.

    Thanks for directing me to the post on Casey. The thread as a whole got me thinking.

    First of all, women who aren’t attracted to beta guys shouldn’t pursue them just because they want a stable relationship.

    Guys (whether they be alpha, beta, or sigma or any other Greek letter they come up with for a label) need to have higher and more realistic standards. For that guy, dating a girl like Casey screamed of settling, since she clearly wasn’t a good match. Too many guys find a girl that’s interested and then do what they can to make it work, even when it’s clearly hopeless, due to the scarcity framework.

    The term “beta” is obviously being used in a variety of different ways by a variety of different people on this site and others. Some people use the term to describe guys who are commitment oriented and nurturing, while others use it to mean guys who are insecure, passive, shy, introverted, or just plain unable to get laid.

    Finally, it’s becoming more and more clear to me that these Greek labels are far too simplistic. I know guys who are completely dominant with women, and yet fall into more supportive or submissive roles when women are not around. I also know guys who are dominant in many areas of life but have real trouble with women.

    As for me, I would say that outside of my relationships with women, I’ve always been strongly sigma, a category I didn’t know anything about until looking up Vox. Yet, my style of interacting with women I was interested in (pre-game) was primarily beta (in the sense that i would defer to their wants, needs, judgments, etc…). With women I’m not interested in, my natural way of relating has been more alpha than anything.

    Though both the pre-game me and Casey’s guy would both be identified as beta, I would have had no problem chatting up her friends and probably charming the heck out of them, and I would have had no problem dancing. The only thing we would have had in common is the whole “taking things slowly” bit, but our motivations would probably have been different there, as well. I would have moved slowly out of fear of crossing the line. Casey’s guy seemed to genuinely want to establish the relationship before making a move.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Stingray wrote:

    But watching her smack him in the back of the head (you know, acting like she is joking but she’s not) and calling him out for something stupid, is not only highly embarrassing for me to be in the same room with, but brings about an anger instilled in me as a little girl . . . how could she treat a man she loves with such disdain and lack of respect?

    Our husbands’ sins range from never emptying the dishwasher to letting our homes go to rack and ruin… Why must we women mock the men we love?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    I suspect that women are overwhelmingly the ones who use this excuse:
    It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.

    I’ve only heard it once, from a guy.

    Well,

    If you have not been not relationship with woman, no woman can be cheated you. Then there is no any reason why you heard it from woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well,

      If you have not been not relationship with woman, no woman can be cheated you. Then there is no any reason why you heard it from woman.

      Oops, sorry, I meant I’d heard it from a young woman who was given that line by a guy.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Some Handle wrote:

    [One more stupid man...let me try that again]

    Not stupid.

    That instruction under of comment box does not say that <blockquote cite=""> should be ended with </blockquote>. So it assumes that you are familiar with HTML.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    It would be interesting if Susan made a post about what does DRAMA! mean for guys.

    A woman is DRAMA when she resorts to emotional manipulation, passive aggressive behavior, name calling, nagging, lying, denial, projection, strawman-ing, picking up fights, win-lose, to get what she wants, rather than choosing loving / honest / open / vulnerable / win-win language.

    The woman is DRAMA when she chooses to use the guy´s feelings as a means to get stuff, regardless of the guy getting damaged and she being unfair.

    The woman is DRAMA when “fair” means “whatever is good for her” and “unfair” means “whatever she doesnt like”.

    So women have this more articulated emotional lexicon. In my experience, if left to their own devices, they use that as a weapon.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: “Mothers work full-time, so boys don’t get that after-school time with mom the way they once did. Dad is stressed out, eating lunch at his desk, working late, so girls don’t get that brief chat before dinner where so much wisdom was imparted in my youth.”

    From Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids:

    Back in 1965, when the typical mom was a housewife, she spend ten hours a week specifically focusing on her children’s needs. By 2000, this number had risen to thirteen hours a week….Stay-at-home moms went from eleven hours per week in 1975 to seventeen hours per week in 2000. Working moms went from six hours per week in 1975 to eleven hours per week in 200. Modern working moms spend as much time caring for their kids as stay-at-home moms did thirty years ago.

    Byran Caplan later on to explain that the average dad today spends more time taking care of his kids than the average mom did in 1965.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      Modern working moms spend as much time caring for their kids as stay-at-home moms did thirty years ago.

      I’m probably guilty of overdoing it – until my kids were out of high school I arranged my schedule around being at home in the afternoons and we always had time together then, even if just for a snack. I also attended all their games. It’s not the amount of time spent, though, it’s the nature of the interaction. Hours spent on children’s needs can be 10 hours a week carpooling with other kids present as you drive them to extracurricular activities, or 2 hours a week reading or talking together alone. So it’s not the number of hours, but how those hours are spent.

      Many of my daughter’s guy friends are only kids or have only brothers. In high school, despite sex ed, they peppered her with questions to figure out what menstruation was. There’s just no question that the sexes have less of an opportunity to learn about the other growing up.

      It was not my intention to criticize hard-working parents. It’s just a fact of American life that parents are more stressed out today than they were in 1975.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ““Mostly that takes the form of my letting him know when he’s being shit tested and must respond with strength.””

    Good mom. Isn’t this what mothers used to do with their sons, instead of asking why they couldn’t be more well-behaved like their sisters were, and exhorting them to “treat girls right” by “being nice”?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Isn’t this what mothers used to do with their sons, instead of asking why they couldn’t be more well-behaved like their sisters were, and exhorting them to “treat girls right” by “being nice”?

      I’m not really sure why women have lost the ability to do this. For the record, there have been many times when I’ve sided with his gf, or judged his behavior as disrespectful. But I know well how high maintenance women can be. When she’s making unreasonable demands and he’s stressing, I’ll be the first to say, “Don’t put up with that. She said she was busy, now she’s not, but you’ve already made other plans. Her loss.” Once he felt considerable pressure to give her an elaborate gift on Valentine’s Day – he was trying to figure out what he could afford from Tiffany’s. I told him that was ridiculous, and that the nicest VDay present I ever got from his father was a small book of Pablo Neruda’s love poems. He said, “Well that is not going to fly.” I told him if that was really true, she was not worthy of him.

      This is just common sense, it seems to me. A woman should be able to detect female entitlement easily. Why wouldn’t you coach your son on how to handle it?

  • http://gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    Bb/SayWhaat: Wasn’t aware of the email, clearly it’s Badger’s move here. But can this celebrity couple tolerate the scrutiny of the paparazzi? Who’s gonna lay odds?

    Then again, being called “fool” is a strong IOD.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Then again, being called “fool” is a strong IOD.

      I don’t know, I thought it felt more like a neg.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    GudEnuf, I’ve seen that citation too, and it really resonates with me. Kids today don’t go to the playground with each other the way they used to, parents are over-supervising their kids, parents come to their kids’ sports practices for crying out loud. I see a clear link between the manner of parenting today (not the time, but the helicopter manner) and the stunted, semi-accountable extended adolescence young people today are living in. Teacups, Susan calls them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I see a clear link between the manner of parenting today (not the time, but the helicopter manner) and the stunted, semi-accountable extended adolescence young people today are living in. Teacups, Susan calls them.

      Good point. We’ve been so eager to make them high achieving we’ve done it for them, even to the point of attending practices and yelling at our own kids the whole time.

  • Abbot

    It wasn’t cheating because in my mind we were already broken up.
    .
    Once is a huge tell of a weak mind. More than that and you MUST not proceed into marriage with anyone who had practice getting into another person’s genitals based on a rough patch in the “relationship.” WAY too risky. Practice makes perfect but not all perfections are desirable, acceptable or worthy of approval.

  • Hellhath

    Susan said:

    Agreed, we’ve lost the rituals and the scripts that went with them. And it’s not just courtship, either. Families are smaller, many people grow up without siblings of the opposite sex. Mothers work full-time, so boys don’t get that after-school time with mom the way they once did. Dad is stressed out, eating lunch at his desk, working late, so girls don’t get that brief chat before dinner where so much wisdom was imparted in my youth. Kids don’t play in the neighborhood – it’s all arranged playdates, which are usually single sex.

    Like you said it isn’t just rituals to do with courting. It is the entire gender structure. Ironically I got introduce to masculinity studies via two sources, Game and Fight Club. I actually started learning about how all this works after my marriage melted down a decade ago. It’s funny how you said 20 somethings are waiting for something to happen. It isn’t just feminization, there is also components of the parenting style… the helocoptering, the over-parenting, the whole don’t worry let me handle it for you. (Nation of Wimps is a decent read on this); Add to that the other side of neglectful parents who come home (if all) and don’t interact with them, don’t teach their boys how to shave, how respect works, about consequences and choices. You get a nation of boys grown into biological manhood that are aimless, bewildered, and lost. They don’t even have a reference point since they were never forced to deal with trial and error. They just know something is suppose to happen. Not a good trend for the human race, you have a factory ideal for the production of low-status insecure immature males. Males who would rather play their playstations than interact (even sexually) with their girlfriends. Males who think it is acceptable to live off their girlfriends, or girlfriend’s parents.

    As to how to “fix” it… it bears to repeat what others have said here. Game is a great equalizer, but only one step. With or without a woman/sex, men owe it to themselves to grow up, find their balls, and realize it isn’t a sin to be born a man.

    I so need my old man cane so I can shake it. (Not that I’m old, just makes me feel it)…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Males who think it is acceptable to live off their girlfriends, or girlfriend’s parents.

      This week I heard two stories from worried mothers. Their daughters are each seriously involved with men they met online dating. And neither of these men has worked in over two years. One has wealthy parents so he squats in their Manhattan pied a terre. The other is an independent consultant who has never had a client. WTF? Both of these women are in their early 30s, and want marriage and children.

      I had no idea what to say to those mothers.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Well, years later I relayed a story like this on Roissy’s board and asked the girls how they would react if a guy had tried something similar (not a thong, but something appropriate for a man). Well, something like 6 or 7 girls replied and all of them, all of them, said that they would have laughed.

    Back in school, I lived on a floor with almost all girls and I can not tell you how often they got together to cackle about what the latest loser had done.”

    This bush can’t be beat around, girls are very nasty today. This is what I think is behind Alyssa Bereznak – there’s this need among modern women to publicly tag and trash men they judge to be inadequate. I am convinced it’s (a) a way to brag about male attention by disguising it as disgust, and (b) a way of bolstering their growing disappointment that the big bad world isn’t making their dreams come true the way they were told it would.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (b) a way of bolstering their growing disappointment that the big bad world isn’t making their dreams come true the way they were told it would.

      I think this is most of it. Alyssa can’t find Mr. Right, so she justifies her loveless status by publicizing how Wrong the guys are. It’s a way of laying blame on males, i.e. Where Have All the Good Men Gone? The more self-aware women in this predicament will at some point acknowledge that they “always had a tendency to choose the wrong guys.” But even they think the world owes them a life partner now that they’ve seen the light.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Let me add to myself that it only takes one or two times being the male victim of such nastiness for a guy to give up on initiating with women entirely, and to react to a woman being nice to him with great distrust that she’s conning him and setting him up as a straight man for her punchline.

    The truth is, his best move would be to open another woman on the spot and parade her in front of Bitchgirl, but that’s way too much to ask of a fragile beta-type guy. (Most) young women expect guys to take all the risk and “just deal with it,” they are so clueless as to what we go through.

  • SayWhaat

    Then again, being called “fool” is a strong IOD.

    Not in my book. ;)

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    @Lavazza, how did the ex-fiancee take this announcement?

    @GodEnuf “Modern working moms spend as much time caring for their kids as stay-at-home moms did thirty years ago.”

    I submit this is part of the problem. Children that become the sole focus of households may start to believe that everything revolve around their wants and needs. Not a good way to train people to be adults.

  • GudEnuf

    BB: “I submit this is part of the problem. Children that become the sole focus of households may start to believe that everything revolve around their wants and needs. Not a good way to train people to be adults.”

    My girlfriend and I talked about this. We’ve decided (at least for now) we want to be a dual income family. We’d rather be at the office than cleaning the house or spending a 14 hours a day with the kids. So we’ll earn money and spend it on day-care and maid service. That way the kids have a life of their own, and we can spend our time as efficiently as possible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf
      Wow, you are seriously talking about marriage and day care for the kids already!

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Bb
    most men don’t talk to women about those differences…or there’s no avenue in real life to explore those differences. I answered this question on my blog by saying “What guy in real life is going to tell me straight up what ladder I’m on, or what my number is to him? Or what slice of pizza I’m on? (And this is why I like the manosphere and men in them so much: you all do).

    I mentioned on my blog that I asked some of my oldest male friends to tell me what they thought my number was. (Then, because I’m a nerd, I added up the results and divided them by the number of respondents.) A Game blogger who commented on that post said he was really surprised that I got honest answers; he said that even with all his straight talk, he would never tell a woman what her ranking is in his eyes, and he’d assume that a man who did was very socially unaware. And he had a point: all the guys who answered honestly are also nerdy, with trouble attracting women; and the two who refused point blank to give a number (although they were willing to give “pep talks”–Ha!) definitely have more success with the ladies.

    I think there’s no avenue in real life to discuss these differences because the message is much easier for everyone when it happens online. My guess (although I could be wrong) is that a Game blogger who will enthusiastically write a post with the message, “You don’t have a boyfriend because you’re FAT,” will let his tact hold him back like any other man if a woman he knows in real life asks him to his face, “Do you think I look fat in this?”

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    OffTheCuff wrote:

    Then again, being called “fool” is a strong IOD.

    IOD ?

    An Indicator of D ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      IOD = Indicator of Disinterest

  • GudEnuf

    Susan: Wow, you are seriously talking about marriage and day care for the kids already!

    It’s more of a fun thing to talk about than a serious plan. Some guys fantasize about the Playboy Mansion, I fantasize about the white picket fence.

  • GudEnuf

    I feel like the sex positivists and the SMP believers are just talking around each other. I keep hearing a lot of the same points reiterated by both sides.

    I think we can we all agree that:

    -Each person has a right to set their own bottom line as to what they expect from a relationship/encounter.

    -Each person has a right to reject anyone’s bottom line by walking away.

    -No one has the right to call someone else’s bottom line immoral, exploitative, or shallow.

    For instance, Stacy has the right to demand that any man take her to a five star restaurant before getting to kiss her. Ben has the right to say “Hell no!” and walk away. Stacy has no right to call Ben a “cheap chump”, and Ben has no right to call Stacy an “entitled bitch”. Each person gets to set their bottom line, and each person is free to walk away if that bottom line isn’t met.

    The problem comes when certain people accuse men of being shallow when men only want to date good looking men. Or when certain people on the other side accuse women of being slutty when their bottom line is unusually low. It’s not cool when the other side does it, and it’s not cool when you do it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      -No one has the right to call someone else’s bottom line immoral, exploitative, or shallow.

      I strongly disagree. This is where we get back to the concept of the social contract. What will society decide is in its best interest as a whole, and what will society do to enforce those norms? To take an extreme example, someone might have a bottom line of having sex with their own offspring. Or deliberately having unprotected sex even though they know they are infected with an STD. At some point, it is not only a right but a necessity that we speak out about what we consider immoral and exploitative. Or we can just be silent and let society go to hell, because the bad guys will always win in that case.

      It is valid and just to speak out when one believes the inmates are running the asylum.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    GudEnuf,

    But, Stacy IS an entitled bitch in your example.

  • Lavazza

    BB: As a sign that I was not willing to take crap, I guess. Very little drama for the next couple of months or so.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @GudEnuf

    The problem is not the same points, but the completely different set of values. Both sides accept the general model of the bottom line but think the other side’s values are completely skewed. And I think we do have the right to challenge each other’s values, although it would definitely help to take an earlier poster’s (OTC’s?) suggestion that we do so with less heat and more light.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    GudEnuf wrote:

    The problem comes when certain people accuse men of being shallow when men only want to date good looking men.

    I’m not sure that you mean that. ☻

    Let’s forget women ?

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    I think we can we all agree that:

    -Each person has a right to set their own bottom line as to what they expect from a relationship/encounter.

    -Each person has a right to reject anyone’s bottom line by walking away.

    -No one has the right to call someone else’s bottom line immoral, exploitative, or shallow.

    ??? You’re demanding self-censorship? Actually, no. Not everyone can (or will) agree with that. Besides, I don’t think it’s what you really mean. What you’re not putting to words is that you don’t want others to actually *believe* you’re immoral, exploitative or shallow (where “you” is generic for every one of us), even when “you” are.

    The world is not going to be so protective of one’s feelings. Adults are actually free to be jerks, idiots and all the other bad things we discuss here. And they’re free to make judgments about others. In fact, they should and they do.

    Adults simply know that they cannot be free from the consequences of that freedom. Sometimes the consequence is to be called on it.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Sorry. I didn’t see Susan’s response before I posted. Didn’t mean to copy her ideas!

  • Leanne

    @Gud Enough

    Sorry, the “don’t judge” behavior because every thing is relative is what has gotten society so messed up in the first place. Some claim that all cultures, ideas, and values are equal. I suppose it’s a form of cultural communisim. In reality, everything gets tried in a marketplace of one sort or another. Even ideas and values.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sorry, the “don’t judge” behavior because every thing is relative is what has gotten society so messed up in the first place.

      Moral relativism is the scourge of our time.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Some guys fantasize about the Playboy Mansion, I fantasize about the white picket fence.

    My erstwhile dream: white picket fence and a wife with playboy model looks and BSD’s personality.

  • Abbot

    I think we can we all agree that:
    -Each person has a right to set their own bottom line as to what they expect from a relationship/encounter.
    -Each person has a right to reject anyone’s bottom line by walking away.
    -No one has the right to call someone else’s bottom line immoral, exploitative, or shallow.

    .
    But when someone or some group senses a contrived disadvantage or *gasp* unfairness, then you get the same list of childish putdowns [always the same] including insecure, hypocrite, weak, immature and the all-powerful conversation stopper: misogynist. The only plausible reason that men sling much less mud at women is because men know that women range widely in their beliefs, personalities and expectations and therefore men do not feel trapped. Men who have the traits that so-called “modern women” expect and seek exist in a much narrower band. That is, there is a shortage of “enlightened” men to select from and that is frustrating and unfair. Expect a near-term escalation in outbursts aimed at men and that should last until the present generation of women age to the point of not giving a shit.

  • GudEnuf

    Wow, apparently everyone disagrees with what I think we can all agree on.

    Susan, it was only a year ago that you claimed to be all for a sexual free market. Now it appears you want a culturally mandated minimum price for female sexuality. That makes you the SMP equivalent of a union boss who complains that non-union workers are driving down wages. Perhaps sluts are driving down the price of sex; deal with it. Instead of trying to regulate your competition away, why not make yourself more competitive?

    Joe: Just because you should be free to say something doesn’t mean you ought to.

    Perhaps I should have phrased my position better. Yes, Ben has the right to call Stacy an “entitled bitch”. I’m not in favor of censorship. But Ben does not have the basis to call her that. It is simply not the case that Stacy is an “entitled bitch” just because she demands a five-star restaurant. You have the right to say she is, but the fact is she’s not.

    Yahomi: But, Stacy IS an entitled bitch in your example.

    Would you prefer she just refused to date men at all? Stacy’s is just making men an offer, one that they are free to accept or refuse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      Perhaps sluts are driving down the price of sex; deal with it. Instead of trying to regulate your competition away, why not make yourself more competitive?

      Who said anything about regulation? I’m not suggesting we pillory sluts or anything. I’m talking about the power of the masses to exert influence. We do it all the time – it’s called civilization.

      For non-slutty women to successfully compete, they have to embrace a luxury marketing strategy. From an old post:

      Selling luxury, on the other hand, is primarily about fulfilling the dreams and desires of the consumer. Luxury provides the consumer with a sense of emotional well-being. In order to create demand, you must convince the buyer that the experience you are offering will enhance his life. You need to find a way to convey the concept that with his investment in a relationship, he gains membership to an elite group. To create the perception of exclusivity, it is essential that distribution is restrictive.

      IOW, luxury goods sell because they are “cool” – they convey status. Part of a luxury marketing strategy is creating that contrast with a commodity. Cartier vs. Timex. Samuel Adams Pumpkin Ale vs. Natty Light. Most advertising for material goods attempt to create an air of exclusivity bestowed by the product.

      This same strategy, by the way, is the one employed in Join in Club (in the Amazon sidebar), which tracks the impact of using peer pressure to create successful social change all over the world.

  • GudEnuf

    Leanne: The sex negativists are the one’s calling for a “cultural communism” (or at least a cultural minimum wage). I’m on the side of the free market.

    Abbot: That’s someone else’s position, not mine. I understand that sexual free market will create winners and losers, some will have advantages and some will have disadvantages. That’s a price I’m willing to pay for freedom.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The sex negativists are the one’s calling for a “cultural communism” (or at least a cultural minimum wage). I’m on the side of the free market.

      Come on, you’re better than that. Sex negativists? You know that feminists co-opted the term sex-positive to sell Florida swampland to the unsuspecting.

      Who ever said anything about restricting human rights and freedoms? I’m simply in the business of pointing out to women that men select life partners in part based on their sexual histories. Why are women surprised and dismayed to learn this? Has it not always been true? Yet feminists bark that men are unfair, and should be denied that choice. Is that what you call a free and fair exchange of goods?

      Instead of restricting a valuable resource, i.e. female sexuality, to drive up the price, sex pos fem’s want to drive the price to zero, so that sex is truly a commodity. That is real communism – dictating that all men must get with sluts and like it. It’s like waiting in line for five hours just to get a roll of crappy toilet paper.

  • Abbot

    Perhaps sluts are driving down the price of sex; deal with it.
    .
    What is the problem here? Men deal with it just fine. Then if :
    .
    we can we all agree that:
    -Each person has a right to set their own bottom line as to what they expect from a relationship/encounter.
    -Each person has a right to reject anyone’s bottom line by walking away.
    -No one has the right to call someone else’s bottom line immoral, exploitative, or shallow.

    .
    Meaning that if men do not want to move those sluts to the wife pile then that is just, acceptable and normal since we all agreed to those three points.
    .

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    GudEnuf,

    Honestly it sounds like you are against morally questioning anything. In your example, Ashley is putting a price of a kiss = she´s acting as an entitled whore. Of course she is free to do it, but her choice is still entitled and whorish.

    How about if I go like this “before going on a formal date with a girl, she first has to suck my cock, do anal, clean my house, do the dishes, pay my rent, and set me up with her mother”.

    Do I sound like an entitled bitch to you? I hope I do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      How about if I go like this “before going on a formal date with a girl, she first has to suck my cock, do anal, clean my house, do the dishes, pay my rent, and set me up with her mother”.

      Sadly, quite a few women would probably sign on for this.

  • GudEnuf

    Abbot: “Meaning that if men do not want to move those sluts to the wife pile then that is just, acceptable and normal since we all agreed to those three points.”

    Exactly. I know many progressives disagree with this, but they are being logically inconsistant. As a sexual libertarian, I respect men’s rights to refuse to marry a woman for any reason.

  • GudEnuf

    Yohomi: You don’t sound entitled to me. You sound like a man who has priced himself out of the market. That doesn’t make you an entitled bitch.

    Now, if you started whining about how women never pay your rent, and how they ought to be treating you so much better, that would make you an entitled bitch.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    GudEnuf,

    Now, if you started whining about how women never pay your rent, and how they ought to be treating you so much better, that would make you an entitled bitch.

    Mmm but that goes on hand with Ashley´s behavior. If she sets things off market, like exchanging kisses for expensive restaurant dates, there will be whining involved. A lot of it.

  • Abbot

    The sex negativists are the one’s calling for a “cultural communism”
    .
    What is a “sex negativist?” Is that the shame phrase du jour? Is that the same as being “love positive?” If so, then sex-positive must mean “acceptance positive” as there is a strong whiff of begging for acceptance stench among that fringe group.
    .
    I understand that sexual free market will create winners and losers, some will have advantages and some will have disadvantages. That’s a price I’m willing to pay for freedom.
    .
    Per the sex pozzies, its a steep price with the high side clearly skewed toward women. Freedom is wonderful. Being free to cater to the sexual needs of men who later run into the arms of the so-called less free is a bizarre sort of freedom. But if it works for ya…
    .

  • Abbot

    “Meaning that if men do not want to move those sluts to the wife pile then that is just, acceptable and normal since we all agreed to those three points.”
    .
    Exactly. I know many progressives disagree with this, but they are being logically inconsistant. As a sexual libertarian, I respect men’s rights to refuse to marry a woman for any reason.

    .
    Woah. Very good. But the same question keep coming up: why do these “progressives” disagree? Are they disagreeing that men think this way at all or disagreeing with men for thinking this way? Are they in denial or are aware but want to change men? If they are trying to change men then what we have here is a group of cry babies with no credibility and who should not be given any attention.

    .

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Gudenuf,

    Nobody’s suggesting we give a citation to the entitled princesses. They can go on exchanging high priced dinners for kisses if they’d like. But why is it wrong for us to express our negative opinions about them? And why is it wrong to point out to them that they’d have an easier and probably more enjoyable time on the market if they’d lower their “rates” a bit?

    The fact is that a woman who expects me bend over backwards and perform stunts just to kiss her views me as someone having far less value than her. She’s entitled to that view, sure, but her entitlement doesn’t mean she’s NOT a delusional conceited bitch…

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mahoney,

    She’s entitled to that view

    Id go as far as to say nobody is entitled to anything. I dont know when this “entitlement” started to roll but its, at least in my opinion, so obviously stupid.

    Somehow freedom became rights and not “entitlement”. Fuck it. Its an ego trap.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    * I meant

    Somehow freedom became rights and NOW “entitlement”.

    For me “entitlement” sounds like nobody can question you. I cant think of a single healthy use for the word.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami

      For me “entitlement” sounds like nobody can question you. I cant think of a single healthy use for the word.

      Me either! Entitlements are breaking the back of the U.S. economy! Entitlement = undeserving. It’s the exact opposite of the free market.

  • Abbot

    Stringing this together, we have a winner. I cannot believe men would have any problem with this. Would most women? Are we finally getting to the bottom line here?
    .
    we can we all agree that:
    -Each person has a right to set their own bottom line as to what they expect from a relationship/encounter.
    -Each person has a right to reject anyone’s bottom line by walking away.
    -No one has the right to call someone else’s bottom line immoral, exploitative, or shallow.
    .
    Meaning that if men do not want to move those sluts to the wife pile then that is just, acceptable and normal since we all agreed to those three points.
    .
    Exactly. I know many progressives disagree with this, but they are being logically inconsistant. As a sexual libertarian, I respect men’s rights to refuse to marry a woman for any reason.

    .

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    did some mini research

    entitlement – entitled – etc has a proper use on the law jergon. we are all entitled to be protected by the police, for example.

    but any use outside of the law context is pretty weird.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_entitled_to_my_opinion

    I only see it used as a way to protect oneself from criticism, specially when deserved.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    Yea, I didn’t mean “entitled” in that sense. I was using “entitlement” as a synonym for “right,” which is pretty standard. I don’t think anything or anyone is above skepticism or doubt. Question everything…

  • Abbot

    “I don’t think anything or anyone is above skepticism or doubt.”
    .
    Taking criticism without feeling bad or insecure or defensive is a natural trait aka thick skin. There are some real thin skinners out there and they tend to make up the whiner class of humans.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    The interesting thing about entitlement princesses that I’ve recently discovered, is that they’re so unused to questioning their right to everything, that they minute you call them on their shit and show you’re ready to walk away from them, they admire you for it.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mahoney,

    they minute you call them on their shit and show you’re ready to walk away from them, they admire you for it.

    Yes. They respect the boundary setting. Women respect boundaries. Entitled princesses dont see many boundaries, so its even more precious to them, seeing the real thing… the real man in work. Just dont try to change their minds / dont act rational about their irrationality.

  • Abbot

    The interesting thing about entitlement princesses that I’ve recently discovered, is that they’re so unused to questioning their right to everything, that they minute you call them on their shit and show you’re ready to walk away from them, they admire you for it.
    .
    Are these the same people who believe that they should be participating in and running half of everything [at a minimum]?
    .

  • Stingray

    that they minute you call them on their shit and show you’re ready to walk away from them, they admire you for it.

    They respect the boundary setting.

    And we respect the courage (and possibly indifference) it takes to set these boundaries.

  • Butterfly Flower

    This week I heard two stories from worried mothers. Their daughters are each seriously involved with men they met online dating. And neither of these men has worked in over two years. One has wealthy parents so he squats in their Manhattan pied a terre. The other is an independent consultant who has never had a client. WTF? Both of these women are in their early 30s, and want marriage and children.

    I had no idea what to say to those mothers.

    Well, this isn’t solely a male scenario. Here in NYC it’s quite common for upper-class young adults to be, well…ambition-less losers.

    My upper-class guyfriends often struggle with independence. They’re jobless not because they’re lazy, but because they’re intimidated by the concept of the real world. Like, they’d rather live in their guilded cage than live in the real world and face the possibility of failure.

    Anyway, I wouldn’t call the situations hopeless. Since it’s unlikely both guys are proud of their circumstances, they’re probably trying to improve themselves for their significant other. I’ve seen this happen quite a few times.

    Note: this why Garbage man > Socialite guy in the twilight-zone also known as the NYC SMP.

  • Some Handle

    I strongly disagree. … someone might have a bottom line of having sex with their own offspring. Or deliberately having unprotected sex even though they know they are infected with an STD.

    You two are actually speaking past one another.

    The one is talking about what is socially acceptable and the other is talking about what is criminal.

    So, is it socially acceptable for, say, Paul Seymour Hoffman in his next interview to say that he is mainly attracted to girls with perky tits and tight asses? Because we know that it would be acceptable if he said, oh, that he was mainly attracted to strong, independent women.

  • Some Handle

    Perhaps sluts are driving down the price of sex; deal with it. Instead of trying to regulate your competition away, why not make yourself more competitive?

    She is dealing with it.

    Let’s have thought experiment:

    Let’s say that Susan’s daughter is going to Big State U. And, Susan (and her daughter) soon find out that 95% of the girls that attend BSU are total sluts. Just giving it away. And, with this many sluts, even the Beta Omega Psi frat is getting in on the action. So, Susan quickly yanks her daughter from this school (since she is terrified that even her intelligent daughter will start to have cross-eyed morals from all that she sees) and scrapes together a few extra dollars to send her to the Awesomely Wholesome and Clever College.

    There, her daughter meets a nice boy and Susan gets to work on a new blog that tracks all of the slutty and whorish behavior of the girls at BSU (STDs, illegitimate pregnancies, rapidly aging faces, bodies wrecked from too much alcohol and drugs, etc.)

    Soon enough, enough girls (after hearing the 100th lady call her a “whore” right to her face in the middle of town) start to change there ways and, more importantly, few of the younger generation follow in their older sisters slutty footsteps.

    So, what does Susan get for her hard work:
    – better dating environment for her Daughter
    – a more “traditional” environment where her son is more likely to produce grandchildren instead of pornos
    – a town full of picket fences and Two Cats in the Yard instead of Pawn Shops and Two Caps in the Ass
    – Peace of Mind

    Susan is going to fight for what she desires and you should fight for what you desire.

  • Dogsquat

    @Badger and GudEnough re:parenting

    ————————-

    Dude(s), I don’t know if it’s the environment I work in, but I think most parents today suck.

    I regularly deal with parents frantic with fear because their special angel has a bruise on his wittle pwecious elbow. Of course, the kid’s gonna get a bunch of radiation to prove what everybody who owns a stethoscope already knows – no break. These kids are eating rads to palliate their parent’s anxiety.

    It’s so bad now that when I take care of a young man who makes an effort to suck it up and be tough, I find and congratulate the father on raising a man (circumstance permitting).

    I don’t give a fuck about “unjust” gender roles, either. If you want to live, help me help you. Breaking a bone hurts. There’s no excuse for thrashing around so much I need three sticks to get an IV in so I can give you some pain medicine. Threatening me is futile – I’m already doing everything humanly possible. That manifests lack of discipline, and the deep seated belief that the Universe will bend to your will.

    In a few short years, these washed out shadows of men will be voting.

    Then, there’s the kids I’ve rolled on twice this summer. Mom lives in an apartment complex with a disused tennis court. When she goes out partying/shopping, she locks the kids in said tennis court. The kids have no shade, no water, no toys, and can’t get out. They just sit there until Mom comes back.

    The last time I took care of them, the older one had taken a dump on the court after being in there for over 8 hours, and the younger one was actively seizing due to heat stroke. The younger one’s rectal temp was north of 105 degrees.

    You know what sucks? That’s not even the worst thing I’ve seen parents do to their kids.

    I may be wrong, but I can’t imagine this stuff happening 40 years ago. Yeah, Leave it to Beaver was a bullshit fairytale, but I think somebody would have done something…

    This happy and heartening message brought to you today by Dogsquat, America’s Favorite Way To Cheer Up!

  • Dr. Anonymous
  • Abbot

    In a few short years, these washed out shadows of men will be voting.
    .
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps
    .

  • Stan

    No plan for education, mastering a trade or a skill, cultivating an interesting pastime, or earning more money than you need for your beers and shots.

    What is the point of this since the government will tax any extra earnings most men will make to give to single mothers and other undeserving women who hate these men’s guts?

    Most of us couldn’t DHV to save our lives. We dress for shit. We go to bars or parties, we don’t know the IOIs, and don’t even try talking to girls. When we do try to chat up a girl, we talk like unintelligent dolts with nothing interesting to say and don’t run any damn game at all.

    What’s the problem here since women have as you put it, “petri dish vajayjays hosting God knows what organisms”?

    That girl you like who works on the next floor up in your building and you see her on the elevator every day? TALK TO HER. ASK HER TO GET A DRINK AFTER WORK.

    And get fired from your job after being accused of sexual harassment.

    That girl you saw at the bar who smiled at you? That’s an IOI, numbnuts. GET OFF YOUR FAT ASS AND GO SAY HI TO HER. OK, you’ve talked to them? Now repeat that 20 times. OK you’ve done that? Now go do it again 40 more times.

    Why is this a good idea since women have as you put it, “petri dish vajayjays hosting God knows what organisms”?

    On the one hand, you accurately describe the state of modern womanhood. On the other you seem to want men to ignore that for no good reason.

  • Kurt

    Susan, you should devote a post to Alyssa Bereznak to discuss her public bashing of a a guy she went out with twice. The ironic thing is that she isn’t even close to being cute and is average-looking at best. She should be glad that a successful decent-looking guy would even consider dating her at all. See http://armannd.com/wp-content/uploads/alyssa.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kurt
      I think the Alyssa B. was fully covered, and in a very satisfactory way. She came out of that stinking to high heaven, while Jon Finkel came off as a winner and a gentleman.

  • Isabel

    What is the point of this since the government will tax any extra earnings most men will make to give to single mothers and other undeserving women who hate these men’s guts?

    Half of the UK workforce is female so women are paying just as much for those single mothers as men are. There are no tax breaks or leeways under our jurisdiction based on gender anyway but that wouldn’t fit in with your world view, would it? Of those single parent households, the three biggest factors that cause them to be in that position are violence in a previous relationship (36%); homelessness and poverty (30%); disability (27%) amongst other factors such like being widowed, divorced, working class, Afro-Caribbean etc. I did not see “we hate men’s guts” as a valid option. As if anyone from a non-wealthy background would want to voluntarily choose the struggle that is single motherhood and face the stigma and risk of poverty that it entails.

    Do you honestly think single mothers actively want to be blamed for the “downfall of civilisation” day in, day out? Most women want to be in a LTR.

    What’s the problem here since women have as you put it, “petri dish vajayjays hosting God knows what organisms”?

    Do all women have venereal diseases? Nope. Not even a majority of young women today have their own ecosystem in their knickers.

    I’m pretty sure he was specifically referring to promiscuous women in the first place anyway, though Deti can correct me if I’ve misquoted him. Also, Susan did a pretty cool post on sexually transmitted diseases a few weeks back and the group most at risk of transmission is….dun dun dun…..the elderly. In any case, ‘only’ 1 in 5 Americans has an STD leaving you with 80% of the population. If that isn’t enough then I don’t know what is, you’re only one guy.

    And get fired from your job after being accused of sexual harassment.

    Again, hyperbole. 9.9 times out of ten, you will not be tasered and given a life long criminal record for talking to the girl at the coffee shop. If that was the case, most PUAs and practitioners of Game would be in prison by now instead of starting blog after blog. I’ll happily provide stats if you want but you strike me as someone who has reached his conclusion first and then found ‘reasons’.

    You’re just making excuses now. *shrug*

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Susan, Yohami said:

    How about if I go like this “before going on a formal date with a girl, she first has to suck my cock, do anal, clean my house, do the dishes, pay my rent, and set me up with her mother”.

    And you responded:

    Sadly, quite a few women would probably sign on for this.

    Most men over the age of 20 are going to finish your sentence with “…true, but not with me.”

    That sadness you felt yesterday? I’m feeling it today.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      Most men over the age of 20 are going to finish your sentence with “…true, but not with me.”

      That sadness you felt yesterday? I’m feeling it today.

      Yes, I know the feeling well. The thing is, I don’t think most men want that. Nor do most women want men who want that. It’s that minority of aggressive individuals that’s drowning out other ways of relating.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “My erstwhile dream: white picket fence and a wife with playboy model looks and BSD’s personality.”

    Seriously, Jesus, that’s just ‘shipper bait for me. Should we start a watch list? ;) I know, I know, you’re not doing relationships anymore. Sigh.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “Me either! Entitlements are breaking the back of the U.S. economy! Entitlement = undeserving. It’s the exact opposite of the free market.”

    ____________________________

    Keep on paying those taxes.

    Dogsquat’s Free Taxi Service ain’t cheap.

    In all seriousness, I have no idea how to practically curb Medicare and Medicaid spending. If you try and do it politically, some power-hungry newbie will easily have the incumbent politician voted out. “Vote for me! Congressman So-And-So Killed Somebody’s Grandma!”

    I’m sure as hell not going to do it, because I don’t want to get sued. I’d rather take 99 idiots to the hospital than miss the 1 person who’s brother is a lawyer. That’s pretty much how the docs think, too.

    The only way I think would be practical is to make the Medicaid folks pay a $10 copay. Even then, I can hear the “Healthcare is a right!” people screaming.

  • GudEnuf

    To all those in favor of slut-shaming: How should society punish sluts? What will happen to women like Ozymandias?

    -If they are raped, should their attacker be allowed to use the “she’s a slut!” defense? If you were on the jury, would you give a “not guilty” verdict because she was a slut?

    -When you see a slut, do you imagine they are wearing a scarlet “S”? Do you try and ostracize sluts by excluding them from group activities?

    -If you found out one of your friends was a slut, would you defriend them? Do you try and keep sluts out of your life?

    What do you do to make life more miserable for sluts? What is your idea of appropriate social pressure?

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @GudEnuf

    During one year of college, I lived on the same floor as a girl who liked to go out clubbing on Saturday night, get a little tipsy, find a guy who would take her home, have sex with him, and then come home on the bus on Sunday morning. For some reason, she thought I was a cool person and wanted to hang out with me during those Saturdays when I would go clubbing. But I obviously wasn’t as crazy about hanging out with her.

    At first, I told my friends (most of whom also had rooms on that floor), “Let’s get ready in someone else’s room so L____ doesn’t know we’re going out and doesn’t follow us!” I think they thought it was funny the first time, but afterwards, they told me I was being mean and that they had no problem with L____ joining the group.

    So what I did next was take L____ aside and lay down the rules: “No sex with strangers. If we go out together, that means we go back together. If you leave us to go home with some guy you’ve just met, then you will never go out with us again.”

    Now that I think about it, it was pretty arrogant of me to expect someone else to follow “my” rules (especially when I seemed to be speaking for a whole group although I wasn’t); but honestly, L____ didn’t seem to mind. I think she just wanted to be accepted–and when our group took her in, she didn’t need to get that acceptance from strange men. I don’t know what happened to her after college, though.

    Anyway, I don’t know about “slut shaming” as a general strategy, but I think that among people who know each other and already like each other, a little peer pressure can go a long way.

  • Isabel

    @ Stephenie

    single mother want LTR the easiest possible way. So asking them to screen guys before opening their legs to them, enter in one ear and comes out from the other, also if you tell them that they are causing the death of civilization they would likely don’t care or don’t understand. Is true that a few of them might just need a talk (and my mother and my father tried to help as many people as posible, paying for their education for example if they couldn’t afford it, sadly many young women and men never visited again if my parents offered them help, is like we were offending them or something), but the majority are just thinking with their vaginas and pockets. Dreaming of the thug that will marry them and give them all their loot money. This kind of women would need a really restrictive society so the good choices are easier to do than going through all the hoops needed to be a single mother and a slut, sad but truth freedom is not a magical formula for sense and critical thinking, dumb people use freedom for dumb choices that we all most pay.

    I agree with a lot of what you said but a very, very small minority of single mothers are slutty. That’s the problem! Ok, yes, there might be a trend in England for ‘trashy’ (white) girls to deliberately seek out black guys (or less commonly, Asian guys) just to create a mixed race baby as a fashion accessory. These girls are 14-25 and the dad never sees the child or pays towards its upkeep, neither party cares about the child’s welfare.There’s also other young women who sleep with friends and strangers on purpose to get pregnant whereby both parties make a transaction of sorts to never see each other again. Those are our “single mother, slutty and proud” cohort and they deserve all the criticism they get.

    The rest, however, — the majority — are struggling women (usually in their 30-40s) who are trying their best to raise their children in the face of society’s deafening roars.

    @ GudEnuf

    To all those in favor of slut-shaming: How should society punish sluts? What will happen to women like Ozymandias?

    What do you do to make life more miserable for sluts? What is your idea of appropriate social pressure?

    Nothing should happen to sluts. All of those suggestions are barbaric imo. The only ‘punishment’ that should or will happen to sluts is that they’ll have trouble attracting the kind of man they’ll want in the long-term. For some, that isn’t even a problem. That’s… it. Just because I don’t agree with something doesn’t mean I wish harm on the person.

    Oh and, nothing should happen to Ozy. She’s too lulzy to die. :3

  • Stan

    @Isabel

    I was playing Devil’s Advocate because I was trying to figure out a dichotomy that I have been seeing. Women get talked about in terms like, “walking petri dishes”, that sound like their straight from the OmegaVirginRevolt losers by men who are saying correctly that men need to improve. Either one or the other is correct, not both.

    I’m also wondering how the OmegaVirginRevolt losers are having such an influence on men who should know better.

  • Isabel

    @ Stan

    So you don’t really believe we’re all vaginazis hellbent on stealing your soul? Yessssssssss! Joy unconfined! ;_;

    I just checked out Omega Revolt by the way. There are no words. It’s just so cynical and… well, dense. Apparently Game is a shameless scam thought up by fraudsters who want innocent men’s money. Bizarre.

  • Abbot

    Nothing should happen to sluts. All of those suggestions are barbaric imo. The only ‘punishment’ that should or will happen to sluts is that they’ll have trouble attracting the kind of man they’ll want in the long-term.
    .
    Nothing ever happens to sluts except men fuck them. Beyond that, they should be left alone. There are way more important things to do than goad sluts. They serve a purpose and every generation has some. Its part of the natural order of things. If they try hard enough, someone will take them for the long-term. The fact that non-sluts have it easier in this regard is the source for all the manufactured claims of shaming. They’re just a bunch of wayward girls who feel jilted and are letting off steam. Inconsequential and meaningless self inflicted psychological trauma.
    .

  • Butterfly Flower

    Do you realize that virgin get punished nowadays right? What about the Emma’s of the world? They are a minority now, just a minority that deserves shaming it looks like.

    I’ve been teased for being a virgin; by both men and women. “Just lose it already; it’s not all that special…”

    I’m a Christian, and besides my boyfriend, I honestly don’t know any other Christians that are waiting until marriage. Heck, I don’t know even know any married adult Christians that waited until marriage!

    …lately I’ve been feeling like an idiot for practicing abstinence. These days chastity seems more like a niche fetish than a valued societal norm.

  • Abbot

    Who ever said anything about restricting human rights and freedoms? I’m simply in the business of pointing out to women that men select life partners in part based on their sexual histories. Why are women surprised and dismayed to learn this? Has it not always been true? Yet feminists bark that men are unfair, and should be denied that choice.
    .
    Thats just it. Feminists conclude that men DO restrict a woman’s rights and freedoms [choices] when they select for sexual history. Men then systematically suppress [control] women’s bodies via their historically known negative thoughts about the “sexually prolific” and that means men are controlling women’s lives.* Marriage minded women will pander to men by restricting themselves sexually and therefore cannot achieve emancipation…from men. An effective solution short of begging men to change continues to elude feminists Goodness knows, they’ve tried everything except paying men to look the the other way.
    .
    * In a patriarchal system, women’s bodies are seen as objects to control, and women’s sexual desires threaten the system because women will make choices based on what they, as women want, and not what men want them to do. So women’s sexuality is systematically surpressed.
    – Amanda Marcotte

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Butterfly,

    These days chastity seems more like a niche fetish than a valued societal norm.

    From a religious point of view, should it matter whether its a valued societal norm or not? shouldnt it be about being good to your faith? you in peace with God etc.

    Except God never said anything about being virgin until marriage?

  • Dr. Anonymous

    YOHAMI,

    Leave her alone, dude. She doesn’t need any more incentives from others to fuck up a good conscience that’s in line w/Church teaching. She already lives in the modern West.

    From slut-shaming to virgin-shaming. God help us.

    Butterfly Flower,

    Talk to your priest if you need advice and support about it. If you feel like a shunned “outsider”, just remember that’s a very good thing these days.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Dr. Anonymous,

    She better turns that brain off, right?

  • SayWhaat

    If you feel like a shunned “outsider”, just remember that’s a very good thing these days.

    Bullshit.

  • Butterfly Flower

    From a religious point of view, should it matter whether its a valued societal norm or not? shouldnt it be about being good to your faith? you in peace with God etc.

    Except God never said anything about being virgin until marriage?

    You know, I’ve been wondering that myself.

    I went to a Catholic school and received abstinence sex-ed. I was told “thinking about sex is a sin” and similar nonsense. Heck, I had this one pamphlet that recommended Christian couples to play board games [instead of making out].

    I can’t help but feel like the majority of my abstinence education was made up, and had no biblical basis. I understand the waiting until-marriage thing; but the rest of it seems way too ridiculous.

    Sometimes I wonder if the push for abstinence only sex-ed in the past 20 years has actually resulted in the rise of Betas/Omegas. It makes guys think they’re always taking advantage of a girl. “Good Christian men don’t have steamy make-out with their girlfriends…” I remember being told I shouldn’t let men seduce me. Apparently I don’t have control over my own actions; if I were to go to 2nd base with a guy, it would be completely his fault. How dare that made seduce me a good Christian girl like me. *facepalm*

    Wait a sec, was there possibly a feminist slant in my abstinence sex-ed?

  • OffTheCuff

    BF just got hammered and moderate over at Haley’s for questioning her faith, and the validity of abstinence-only sex ed. Having been in the EXACT same position as her… you know, I’m not at all surprised.

    Sometimes I wonder if the push for abstinence only sex-ed in the past 20 years has actually resulted in the rise of Betas/Omegas. It makes guys think they’re always taking advantage of a girl. “Good Christian men don’t have steamy make-out with their girlfriends…”

    Yes, yes, and yes. All three of these were sold verbatim to my in the sex-ed church class.

  • Matt C

    The rest, however, — the majority — are struggling women (usually in their 30-40s) who are trying their best to raise their children in the face of society’s deafening roars.

    You realize, these “single mothers” usually obtain HUGE dividends in child support. Right? RIGHT?

  • Butterfly Flower

    @OfftheCuff:

    I never got around to asking Haley for your email. I didn’t want to bother her, I assumed she was mad at me. [Although I was modded 'cause I kept getting viciously flamed by Catholics who insisted I was lying/trolling when I brought up my abstinence education. Apparently I'm the only Catholic in the blogosphere who actually attended a Catholic school....]

    OTC, do you mind if I ask Susan to send your email to me?

    Yes, yes, and yes. All three of these were sold verbatim to my in the sex-ed church class.

    Did you struggle with trying to disregard all those nonsensical teachings? My poor boyfriend; I worry about him. He’s naturally an Alpha, so he’ll be very seductive, but then all of a sudden pull back and feel guilty. He’s even once said to me “I’m sorry I made you go this far…” Meanwhile, I had been the one to kiss first!

    …I want to help him break free from his unhealthy thought-pattern.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @BF

    I went to Catholic school, and agree that it took me a good while to unplug from that line of thinking. What a great way to waste some of the prime years of my life. Glad I saw the light before it was too late.

    To this day, if I ever say anything remotely red pill-ish when I’m back home, I always get the “I didn’t send you to Catholic school to think like that” from my mother. I’ve learned it’s just best to keep quiet.

    There’s no doubt in my mind that you won’t find bigger beta/omega factories in the US than Christian churches.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    BF, you’re far from being the only Catholic-educated person in the blogosphere. I can assure you.

    But at the same time, what you just wrote is so far from my own experience that you’ve made it hard to accept at face value. I’ll assume that it *is* your experience, but you have to know that it’s not what of us have been taught.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Oops, sorry. “what *most* of us have been taught.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Do you try and ostracize sluts by excluding them from group activities?

    I can think of a few group activities I’d like to have with sluts. Sorry, it was asking to be said.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’m simply in the business of pointing out to women that men select life partners in part based on their sexual histories. Why are women surprised and dismayed to learn this? Has it not always been true?

    Kids today are raised to thing that they can do no wrong. That they have a free pass to do what they want and they can chalk it all up to learning experiences. This is especially true of middle class kids. They get what they want and they suffer no consequences for their actions.

    I was at the store with a friend and his 3 yr old a couple of weeks ago. The cashier, an older woman, said to the boy, “You’re such a cutie.”

    No boy wants to be a cutie, obviously, but the woman was being nice.

    The boy looked at her and said, “Idiot.”

    My friend, unperturbed by the son’s response, says, “That’s right, you’re handsome, not cute, right, A____?” No admonishment of the son. No apology to the woman.

    So I said, “Wow, that was pretty bratty. Maybe you should apologize to the woman.”

    My friend explained, “He hates being called cute.”

    I said, “I’m sure the lady hates to be called an idiot.”

    Still, no admonishment, no apology.

    Point is, no consequences. We’re so afraid of bruising kids’ egos that we raise a bunch of selfish brats who think they’re entitled to everything. You can fuck a handful of cads, blow a few dozen more, and walk away untainted. Or, on the male side, tell countless women you love them to get up their skirt and then walk away, saying you’re not ready for a relationship.

    Kids today are fucked. Everything is their birthright, because their dumbass pansy parents were too afraid to tell them that the world doesn’t revolve around them. Hence the rise in narcissism.

    And hence why women are surprised that men are going to look at them askance for having fucked around with a handful of cads. They want to fuck around a bit and have some fun, and then they want someone who’s going to stick around and accept them for who they are. They want it all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      We’re so afraid of bruising kids’ egos that we raise a bunch of selfish brats who think they’re entitled to everything. You can fuck a handful of cads, blow a few dozen more, and walk away untainted. Or, on the male side, tell countless women you love them to get up their skirt and then walk away, saying you’re not ready for a relationship.

      Extra credit for including the male side.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bb,

    Seriously, Jesus, that’s just ‘shipper bait for me. Should we start a watch list? ;) I know, I know, you’re not doing relationships anymore. Sigh.

    Ah, you’re one of those match makers. Don’t start a watch list. I wouldn’t be good for a woman looking for a relationship at the moment.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sometimes I wonder if the push for abstinence only sex-ed in the past 20 years has actually resulted in the rise of Betas/Omegas.

    I was never given abstinence only sex-ed, and yet I think I learned somewhere along the line to be beta. I’m pretty sure that my natural inclination isn’t to be beta. I’ve fallen so easily into being more aggressive, and outside of relationships with women, I don’t think I’ve ever been very beta.

    I think in my case, a workaholic dad who was never around and an emotionally distant mom were the hugest causes for my learning to be beta. Also, the horrible misandry one encounters in the media didn’t help.

    Two income families probably has a lot to do with it. Nobody’s around to teach kids how to become adults. Self-involved parents…. Kids planted for hours in front of the TV, parents planted for hours in front of the TV, much less parent-child interaction than in previous generations… Lack of rituals introducing boys into manhood…

    Also, I remember being made afraid to escalate with a girl long before I was at an age at which that would be an option. You’d hear stories of boys who kissed girls at elementary school only to end up being accused sexual assault and of violating the girl’s rights, etc….

  • Butterfly Flower

    BF, you’re far from being the only Catholic-educated person in the blogosphere. I can assure you.

    But at the same time, what you just wrote is so far from my own experience that you’ve made it hard to accept at face value. I’ll assume that it *is* your experience, but you have to know that it’s not what most of us have been taught.

    Well, I’m young. I doubt my abstinence education resembled what they were teaching 30 years ago. [Um, I wasn't insulting your age or anything. I don't know how many years ago you attended a Catholic school]

    Also, the horrible misandry one encounters in the media didn’t help.

    But that’s just it; modern abstinence only education qualifies as misandry!

    “Sex is always the man’s fault. Sex happens because a man seduced a innocent young woman. Men, don’t be a sinner; don’t take advantage of young women…”

    I recently started a new blog. I think I might make a post about the misandry of modern American abstinence education.

    Color me surprised that in here there is a whole anti-sex school of though for catholics… :(

    But that’s just it; the “anti-sex” stuff appears to be a much more recent development. In America, abstinence only education has been around for the last decade-or so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Butterfly Flower
      Give us your blog address! Or sign up for Comment Luv so we can see it.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Butterfly Flower

    Well, I’m young. I doubt my abstinence education resembled what they were teaching 30 years ago. [Um, I wasn't insulting your age or anything. I don't know how many years ago you attended a Catholic school]

    I’m sure it was different, BF (and I didn’t think you were insulting my age :) ).
    I make it a point to be aware of what’s being taught to my nephews, nieces and granddaughter, though. At least, I try.

    I’m trying to understand and explain the reactions you’ve been getting to your statements about abstinence teaching in Catholic schools. Somewhere you got a message (or several, actually) pretty far from what was intended. Someone goofed badly, and if readers in a blog think it’s you, then they will say so. You will feel attacked. I’m sorry about that, but it happens. A lot.

    About the idea of abstinence itself, it’s surprising to hear anyone call it “misandrous” (meaning anti-men). Usually the complaint is that it’s misogynistic and oppressive to girls.

    Do you think that your boyfriend is being oppressed? What’s the difference between that and being urged to have a little self-discipline (which is especially important when dealing with other people)? I wonder what his father would say about that. If he is anything at all like a good father, I’d guess that he’d *like* to see that trait in his son.

  • Dr. Anonymous

    Yo,

    Why would she turn her brain off? What a ridiculous suggestion. Go back and read what I said, then think of a substantial response instead of a glib dismissal. The more direct, the better. If I want a smug, snarky response, I’ll post on Jezebel. You’re usually pretty reasonable.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Jesus Mahoney wrote:

    You’d hear stories of boys who kissed girls at elementary school only to end up being accused sexual assault and of violating the girl’s rights, etc….

    Really?

    Society is sick.

    Sexual Harassment in Elementary Schools

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Dr. Anonymous wrote:

    Why would she turn her brain off? What a ridiculous suggestion.

    I read that sentence that you imply that this claim must not be discussed:

    YOHAMI wrote:

    Except God never said anything about being virgin until marriage?

    You wrote:

    Leave her alone, dude. She doesn’t need any more incentives from others to fuck up a good conscience that’s in line w/Church teaching.

  • Isabel

    You realize, these “single mothers” usually obtain HUGE dividends in child support. Right? RIGHT?

    I don’t really know how it works on your side of the pond, sorry. Child support or maintenance payments for the average wage (£24, 000 per annum) is £43 per week from the non-resident parent for one child. That’s with the non-resident parent having the child at their residence for around 105-155 days a year.

    If the non-resident parent (usually the father, heh) is on welfare, so basically benefits, that comes down to a grand total of £5 per week.

    If the non-resident parent sees his child less than once a week or <52 days, that comes to a grand total of £60 per week.

    Hardly a "huge" dividend if it comes down to less than 10% of their annual income for their own kid. Why shouldn't people pay for their sprogs anyway?

    (As always, ask and links/evidence shall be freely given. I don't like cluttering up my posts lol. Sorry Susan for derailing the thread! :/ )

  • Isabel

    Oops, I forgot to say that was directed at Matt. Out of interest, what are single mothers in the US like? Is the American SMP really that drastically different?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Kari,

    Really?

    Society is sick.

    Agreed. It’s a sign of the sickness of our times that parents will over-protect their kids to an absurd extreme, and yet let them nurse for hours a day on the soft porn and graphic violence that passes as children’s television entertainment today. And then shake their heads in wonder at the cluelessness and promiscuity among the young.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Extra credit for including the male side.

    Thanks, teach. I’m all about equality when it comes to cynicism these days….

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dr. A

    Leave her alone, dude. She doesn’t need any more incentives from others to fuck up a good conscience that’s in line w/Church teaching. She already lives in the modern West.

    This seemed a bit out of line. Yohami wasn’t giving her incentive. Incentive would be, “guys will like you more if you learn how to deep throat.” Yohami was just making a point. BF seems like an intelligent woman. I’m sure she’s not going to be so easily swayed. Give the girl some credit.

  • http://ithinkilostgod.wordpress.com/ Butterfly Flower

    I’m trying to understand and explain the reactions you’ve been getting to your statements about abstinence teaching in Catholic schools. Somewhere you got a message (or several, actually) pretty far from what was intended. Someone goofed badly, and if readers in a blog think it’s you, then they will say so. You will feel attacked. I’m sorry about that, but it happens. A lot.

    Well, I didn’t feel attacked, I actually was attacked. I keep getting cyberbullied by Christians in this-part of the blogosphere. I have to avoid certain blogs, or else they’ll gang-up on me and flame me. They accuse me of being a troll/a man/attention-whore/a sex-positive feminist/anti-Christian/lying about my JIA.

    I’m not even sure how to prove I’m not a troll [I'm afraid to post photos of myself].

    About the idea of abstinence itself, it’s surprising to hear anyone call it “misandrous” (meaning anti-men). Usually the complaint is that it’s misogynistic and oppressive to girls.

    Actually, abstinence education liberates young women from the consequences of sex; considering that it teaches sex is always the man’s fault. Women can’t consent to sex; women are too naive; sluts are just women who were taken advantage of by bad men.

    It’s misandrous because it teaches women to blame their bad decisions on men.

    Do you think that your boyfriend is being oppressed? What’s the difference between that and being urged to have a little self-discipline (which is especially important when dealing with other people)? I wonder what his father would say about that. If he is anything at all like a good father, I’d guess that he’d *like* to see that trait in his son.

    I appreciate/admire his self-discipline. I just wish he wouldn’t feel so guilty about lusting after me. There’s nothing wrong with his feelings. Kissing me isn’t taking advantage of me.

    Give us your blog address! Or sign up for Comment Luv so we can see it.

    Well, it’s mostly a losing-faith-in-Christianity/dealing with my Juvenile Arthritis blog. I plan to do a post about the dark-side of religious abstinence-only education.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Kissing me isn’t taking advantage of me.

    True. However, a great many boys are raised to believe this. Somehow the message we’ve been fed got distorted. I think the original message was supposed to be that women aren’t only sex objects. Fair enough. Somehow or another though, the message a lot of boys have gotten is that, “it’s disrespectful for you to make a woman the object of your sexual desire.”

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    I don’t know whether I got what Americans call “abstinence education,” but it was pretty clear in my all-girls school that if you had sex before marriage, it was as much the woman’s fault as the man’s.

    As an aside, a friend and I were recently talking about the perception of Christianity in the Manosphere, and she laughed to hear that the Church was seen as having a “feminizing” influence on men or being outright anti-male, when in another part of the Internet, feminists are still raging against male-only ordination, some dioceses which are banning altar girls again, and the general anti-abortion stance (which they call “anti-choice”).

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Dr Anon, Kari Hurtta

    I read that sentence that you imply that this claim must not be discussed

    Yes. Butterfly is complaining virginity is no longer an appreciated societal trait. So, is she doing this to be appreciated by society, or is she doing it to get closer to God, even when God never said this would bring her closer to him?

    Im not against virginity or promiscuity, but when I hear stuff like this I jump in.

    Anyone molding themselves after social appreciation has the moral virtue of a sheep. When you are a sheep, you get food and guide and comfort, but you also get skinned and end up in the slaughterhouse. So at least figure where you are going before bitting the hand of that strange man who´s asking you if you really wanna follow that crowd.

    Dr Anon, you tell me to leave her alone and prompt her to go talk to her priest for more indoctrination. Yes, you dont say “THAT”, but isnt that what you mean? if its not what you mean, then what is it?

    BF. If you are questioning yourself, please, do it, but dont lose your virginity by following another group of sheeps and dont surrender to the pressure of either group. Do your own thing and carry your own cross. If you renounce to the safety of the shepple, and end up alone and guiding yourself, God will be there, watching, and closer.

  • http://ithinkilostgod.wordpress.com/ Butterfly Flower

    BF. If you are questioning yourself, please, do it, but dont lose your virginity by following another group of sheeps and dont surrender to the pressure of either group. Do your own thing and carry your own cross. If you renounce to the safety of the shepple, and end up alone and guiding yourself, God will be there, watching, and closer.

    I don’t have a problem with waiting until marriage [I plan to get married in the near future]. It’s just I have a problem with the stigmatization of sexuality.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Butterfly Flower wrote:

    They accuse me of being a troll/a man/attention-whore/a sex-positive feminist/anti-Christian/lying about my JIA.

    JIA ?

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    “So anyone that has a name for this phenomenon, please enlighten me.”

    I can’t think of a name for it, but there’s a saying I’ve heard often that fits. It goes: “Choose your enemies well, for you will become like them.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Joe,

    I can’t think of a name for it, but there’s a saying I’ve heard often that fits. It goes: “Choose your enemies well, for you will become like them.”

    Or:
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

    Nietzsche

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Steph,

    Is interesting how they can be against the same things for entire different reasons. I haven’t yet found a way to explain it though. So anyone that has a name for this phenomenon, please enlighten me.

    It’s just nihilism. People have a sense of deep dissatisfaction with their lives and nobody wants to take responsibility, so they look to blame something else for their rotten souls. Men blame women; women blame men, the rich blame welfare, the poor blame big business, Republicans blame Liberalism, Democrats blame Conservatism. Christians blame atheists, atheists blame Christians and everyone blames Islam. We all blame the media. And the media blames the media, too, and even airs it’s criticisms… via the media.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    I think it’s interesting that Joe and Jesus picked explanations that still reflect the Manosphere’s general anti-church view. My friend and I agreed that making enemies from both extremes (and these ones not the only extremes represented) means that the Church has, for all its faults, actually struck the right balance. But then again, she and I like the Church. :)

  • http://lafemmeroar.wordpress.com/ lafemmeroar

    Very informative posts for those living in hell land with a cheater and a fibber. What ever happened to just saying–“I did it ’cause I wanted to”? Now, that’s an excuse I can at least respect for it’s honesty.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    Or that the extremes can define themselves in relation to you. That is, you’re not really the middle of two extremes–but they are deviations (in opposite directions) away from your normalcy.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Bellita:

    I think it’s interesting that Joe and Jesus picked explanations that still reflect the Manosphere’s general anti-church view.

    Well, I’m not exactly sure I understand, Bellita, because really, this is the exact spot where I break from the Manosphere.

    I agree with you that the Church has struck the right balance, though. And that it’s seen in the way both sides of the “discussion” find something to disagree with.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    Then the fault is mine, Joe. I misunderstood what you were trying to say with your quote about choosing your enemies.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Ah, but I was trying to be a little ambiguous, Billita, to show that I understand both sides of the argument! ;)

    So I can take part of the blame.

    Next, someone will be asking us to “get a room.” Just you wait and see! ;)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    Oh, dear . . .

  • Butterfly Flower

    JIA ?

    Juvenile idiopathic arthritis

  • Dr. Anonymous

    This seemed a bit out of line. Yohami wasn’t giving her incentive. Incentive would be, “guys will like you more if you learn how to deep throat.” Yohami was just making a point. BF seems like an intelligent woman. I’m sure she’s not going to be so easily swayed. Give the girl some credit.

    Mahoney,

    Perhaps you’re right; in hindsight I admit I may have overreacted a bit. Still, I saw a girl who has apparently been struggling a lot, specifically, from just having the courage to follow her Church’s teachings, and then people chime in offering her more reasons to give in and defy that morality. That frustrates me, especially when I witness it on a blog addressing the opposite problem — a problem that exists largely due to the fact girls these days have plenty of encouragement to have sex and hardly any to wait ’til marriage (which, even if you disagree re: its necessity/basis for Christian ethics, is hardly a bad thing and, surely, at least in the right direction).

    Dr Anon, you tell me to leave her alone and prompt her to go talk to her priest for more indoctrination. Yes, you dont say “THAT”, but isnt that what you mean? if its not what you mean, then what is it?

    Yo,

    No, that’s not what I mean at all. I’m a practicing Catholic who considers premarital sex to be sinful, so obviously I wouldn’t deem a discussion w/one’s priest “indoctrination” (a pejorative term w/contemporary usage). “Fides quaerens intellectum” is more like it.

    Here’s what I meant: if she’s troubled w/her faith and/or understanding on the principles of the Church, she ought to see someone from that Church, hopefully someone who can better explain the reasons for that doctrine to her or help her deal w/the struggles and temptations that accompany it. At a minimum, that’s wiser than simply absorbing the common, opposite perspectives of friends and media all the time.

    As I see it, she’s being persistently pulled away from a respectable commitment by friends and culture; but instead of encourage her to prudently and earnestly seek to better acquaint herself w/the grounds for that commitment, you just toss in a brief comment which somewhat arrogantly presupposes the frivolity of her Church’s principle. I’m sure you dispute Catholic dogma and have your disagreements w/the Church, but (a) that would require an entire theological debate to settle, and (b) she’s likely, and apparently, more than familiar w/all the objections to her commitment. In any case, Catholicism deserves its best defense from official sources (certainly beyond the potentially dubious schooling she received from any one, narrow group; and if she doesn’t have an appreciable understanding of Natural Law Theory, etc., then she’s being way too hasty.)

    Can’t we agree that now is hardly the appropriate time to be adding any extra weight to the pressure she’s feeling to abandon a prima facie noble conviction? Short of settling an age-old religious conflict, that strikes me as the optimal course.

  • Matt C

    Can’t we agree that now is hardly the appropriate time to be adding any extra weight to the pressure she’s feeling to abandon a prima facie noble conviction? Short of settling an age-old religious conflict, that strikes me as the optimal course.

    So people shouldn’t voice their opinions?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dr. A

    BF’s in a serious relationship with what seems, by her own account, to be a decent guy. She’s planning on marrying shortly, which probably means she’s planning to marry this current boyfriend.

    She expressed concern about her church’s views on sex. Yohami’s comment was relevant to that concern. If the Bible does not in fact proscribe premarital sex (I can neither confirm nor deny Yohami’s claim), and if BF’s virginity were simply a matter of her adherence to church dogma, then Yohami’s comment would be very significant.

    As it happens, I think that BF is quite content to hold on to her cherry. Good for her. But your reaction to Yohami betrays your religious bias. You’re viewing him as some sort of serpent tempting BF in the garden. Yohami’s not making a play for BF. He’s simply telling her to follow her conscience and do what she believes is right, whether that be throwing down on the couch with the boyfriend tonight or waiting to rock his world on their wedding night.

    Frankly, I’m rooting for the couch. How romantic would it be to just fuck the guilt right out of him tonight and cuddle up afterwards all dripping with sweat and juices? How awed and special and loved would that guy feel? But then again, I’m a godless heathen. Anyway, I respect her choosing to wait if that’s what she believes is right…

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Steph,

    I can totally respect the whole waiting for the wedding night, and can also understand how that would be more special in a way. But assuming they are engaged or planning to marry soon, the surprise on the couch has its merits also. Him, holding back–but barely–out of respect for her, and her just taking it out of his pants and doing whatever she wants to do with it (I can think of a few things, but we’ll keep this post PG13)… That would be a show of love and trust and openness and spontaneity that would melt his heart and swell his manhood at the same time I’m sure.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    IME once you get the green light in sex (whatever that green light is) all inhibitions disappear, YMMV.

    No, my mileage pretty much matches yours here.

    Okay, fair enough on the regrets. Regrets about sex is purely a girl thing. I mean, I suppose a guy may feel regret if he wakes up next to an ugly girl or a girl ends up stalking him afterwards. But aside from that, I can’t see a guy regretting it.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “Regrets about sex is purely a girl thing.”

    Do men ever regret sex?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Bb, the only time I’ve known a guy to regret having had sex is if he was drunk the previous night and had his “beer goggles” on only to wake up in the morning to a girl way below their league. Maybe there are strict religious guys who would regret it. Otherwise, i can’t imagine.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Do men ever regret sex?

    If the sex wasnt something he was specifically pursuing, sure.

  • Butterfly Flower

    My money is on wedding night, being there done that, is more than liberating. Although I had my wedding night months before the signing of the papers, but it was right after I got my ring, a ring he himself made for me

    Steph, you married a jeweler ? Talk about a useful trade!

    I’m not denying that, but the issue is that it might a moment of pure joy followed by self doubts, guilt and issues. It might melt him or he might just get the morning after regret. I’m going for what he is expressing so far is risk to try and bang the guilt out of him, I think is better wait, IME once you get the green light in sex (whatever that green light is) all inhibitions disappear, YMMV.

    He’d feel even more guilty. I can see him insisting on eloping afterward.

    He also feels guilty about getting hard ons [thanks a lot, abstinence education!] I’ve been thinking about buying him a chastity belt but I’m too much of a wimp to enter a sex-shop to purchase one.

    …gosh, I can’t wait to get married and jump his goody-two-shoes Christian bones.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Butterfly Flower wrote:

    Juvenile idiopathic arthritis

    Huh?

    juvenile = characteristic of youth or immaturity; childish
    idiopathic = Of, relating to, or designating a disease or condition having no known cause.
    arthritis = Inflammation of a joint or joints causing pain and/or disability , swelling and stiffness, and due to various causes such as infection, trauma, degenerative changes or metabolic disorders.

    (does not make sense.)

  • Dr. Anonymous

    Matt C said: “So people shouldn’t voice their opinions?”

    Not always. I think there’s even an applicable word for that.

    Jesus Mahoney said: “If the Bible does not in fact proscribe premarital sex (I can neither confirm nor deny Yohami’s claim), and if BF’s virginity were simply a matter of her adherence to church dogma, then Yohami’s comment would be very significant.”

    First, Catholics have never accepted Sola Scriptura. Second, the controversial sentence was both too flippant and too question-begging to be very significant. (When contradicting someone else’s belief/religion, one should at least be self-aware enough to offer more than a casual blank-assertion under a veil of presupposed “common knowledge”, no? Of course, I’m assuming here that Yohami did know the claim implicitly calls-out the Catholic faith as being wrong, though it is, I suppose, possible he knew no such thing.)

    Mahoney said: “But your reaction to Yohami betrays your religious bias. You’re viewing him as some sort of serpent tempting BF in the garden. Yohami’s not making a play for BF. He’s simply telling her to follow her conscience and do what she believes is right”

    I never intended to hide my religious bias. It’s crystal-clear, as it should be. If anything, I was calling for Yohami to be more up-front about his religious bias (viz. against Catholic teaching), even if it’s not associated w/any particular denomination and is nothing more than a popular philosophical advocacy of individualistic autonomy-for-all. And finally, that last sentence above is a lot more complicated and debatable than you may think. There can be a middle-ground between blind obedience and rugged every-conscience-for-itself on these matters. [Take just one example: "After rational assessment, 'S' believes the Church's declaration of any official doctrine is infallible, like it claims to be, and inspired by God. Though S is undecided and uncertain over whether x is y, S is aware the Church has officially declared that x is y. So S decides to accept on faith that x must be y (barring S's rejection of his initial reason-based judgment re: the general legitimacy of the Faith as a whole)." That would not be an instance of willfully ignorant, sheep-like worship, nor would it be a decision to "leave one's brain at the door". Some would go so far as to call it humble and pious.]

    Mahoney said: “Frankly, I’m rooting for the couch. How romantic would it be to just fuck the guilt right out of him tonight and cuddle up afterwards all dripping with sweat and juices? How awed and special and loved would that guy feel?”

    Oh, you devilish instigator, you. You even had the “lol u mad bro” all copied and ready-to-paste for the impending exhibition of caps-locked religious zealotry, didn’t you?, you blackballing bastard! BUT, HA ONCE AGAIN THE WILIEY DR ANOYNMOUS IS TO CLEVER TO BE OUTWITTED LOL!!

  • Matt C

    Not always. I think there’s even an applicable word for that.

    You know, at some points in history the Church prevented the people it had power over from speaking out against it. In hindsight it is almost never seen as the Church instilling discretion into the people, but as a form of oppression of the people’s right to express themselves.

  • anonymous

    @ Jesus Mahoney
    **However, a great many boys are raised to believe this.
    Somehow the message we’ve been fed got distorted. I think the original message was supposed to be that women aren’t only sex objects. Fair enough. Somehow or another though, the message a lot of boys have gotten is that, “it’s disrespectful for you to make a woman the object of your sexual desire.”**

    Since this information is new to me, not personally aware of anyone who was raised with this message (‘cept for you guys in cyberspace), would you be so kind as to describe what “culture” teaches this?
    Would this be a specific religious group or is it a specific culture?
    Who’s exactly giving this message? parents? church?

    What are the girls taught? Is this why some women are offended when given compliments about their physical attributes?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Dr A,

    Its not a bias. Im against any kind of indoctrination, be it religious or atheist.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Or scientifical, political, sociological, etc. Its all the same. Sheeps to the slaughterhouse.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    When contradicting someone else’s belief/religion, one should at least be self-aware enough to offer more than a casual blank-assertion under a veil of presupposed “common knowledge”, no?

    I’m not sure what Miss Manners would say in this situation, but I’m fairly sure there are no set rules here. If I believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth, and Yohami said, “Bro, good story, but I think Galileo proved your ass wrong like 400 yrs ago,” would he be committed some breach of blog etiquette? Of course, he COULD assume that I had some intelligent though esoteric reasons for believing such a thing, but MUST he? If his flippant remark were enough to shake my faith in geocentrism, then what does that say about said faith?

    My guess is that everyone including BF would have spent (at most) as much mental energy pondering Yohami’s point as Yohami spent considering what he was saying when he said it. You’ve actually given the comment weight by treating it as significant.

  • http://gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    As an aside, a friend and I were recently talking about the perception of Christianity in the Manosphere, and she laughed to hear that the Church was seen as having a “feminizing” influence on men or being outright anti-male, when in another part of the Internet, feminists are still raging against male-only ordination, some dioceses which are banning altar girls again, and the general anti-abortion stance (which they call “anti-choice”).

    There is no contradiction here. Having a feminizing influence on men in their actual teachings, can happen at the exact same time as these other things happen. One does not preclude the other. Your friend is a one-dimensional thinker.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Isabel wrote:

    I don’t really know how it works on your side of the pond, sorry. Child support or maintenance payments for the average wage (£24, 000 per annum) is £43 per week from the non-resident parent for one child.

    Hardly a “huge” dividend if it comes down to less than 10% of their annual income for their own kid. Why shouldn’t people pay for their sprogs anyway?

    This is perhaps related:
    Unable to pay child support, poor parents land behind bars

    But in what might seem like an un-American plot twist from a Charles Dickens’ novel, advocates for the poor say, some parents are wrongly being locked away without any regard for their ability to pay — sometimes without the benefit of legal representation.

    Randy Miller, a 39-year-old Iraqi war vet, found himself in that situation in November, when a judge in Floyd County, Ga., sent him to jail for violating a court order to pay child support.

    He said he was stunned when the judge rebuffed his argument that he had made regular payments for more than a decade before losing his job in July 2009 and had recently resumed working.

    It is more than 10% of their annual income.

    Geraghty, the Southern Center for Human Rights attorney, said part of the problem is that courts often order poor parents to pay too much for child support in the first place, increasing the likelihood that they will fall behind on payments.

    “One of my former clients worked at the Piggly Wiggly (supermarket) and they were taking 65 percent of her paycheck,” she said. “It left her in a position where there was simply no way that she could survive on the amount that she had left.”

  • Dr. Anonymous

    Yo,

    While I’m not exactly sure why you’ve just shared some of your firmly-held beliefs re: bias and/or indoctrination w/me, I nevertheless am honored that you chose me alone to address w/your didactic metaphorical story about the sheep and all things sheepish. Still, outweighing the alienating fear of my suspicion that we’ve got wildly different notions about what constitutes ‘bias’ or ‘indoctrination’ is the deeper fear of appearing to possess the doxastic suggestibility of a slaughter-bound farm animal. Therefore, I’m afraid I must unilaterally refuse to believe anything you tell me now.

  • Dr. Anonymous

    Mahoney,

    Your analogy only “works” on an intuitive level only once you’ve stripped my point down to a caricature, such as, “You can never ever mention the truth, or even your opinion of the truth, to anyone who disagrees w/it, no matter how extremely absurd and patently false that person’s stupid, delicate opinion may be. And that’s primarily because such a rogue, lone comment can shatter his cherished beliefs all by itself (and some beliefs are specially-protected from questioning).”

    But that quite obviously wouldn’t capture the majority of factors to which I already appealed either directly or indirectly. First, I highlighted the naivete of thinking such a statement (i.e., a recognizably debatable ethical/religious claim) could serve any sort of intellectually dignified purpose when delivered in that dismissive, question-begging fashion. Any educated or analytical-minded reader should see that and immediately think, “Wait. Really? That’s it? He just takes this bold, little assertion, all alone, without the slightest support or anticipation of objections, and simply tacks a grammatically-awkward question-mark at the end, presumably so that the reader will pick up on his blatant hint — that he’s perplexed such a well-known fact wasn’t obvious to all already? Hmm, but that’s just an intellectually disingenuous way of cost-effective idea-marketing based solely on style, saving the substance only for if it’s subsequently called-out.” Second, BF is probably extra-familiar w/all the reasons and arguments against her culturally unpopular conviction. She doesn’t live under a church pew, and I bet she’s even heard someone say that God permits premarital sex before. (Hopefully, though, amid a logically-productive exchange instead of what can only at best amount to: “But yeah, you really are a deluded outsider for no good reason. Don’t take my word for it though; think for yourself. And don’t think for yourself only cuz I said so; do it cuz you believe in it. (Ad infinitum.)” If Yo’s comment truly was more than just an affirmation of alienation, why couldn’t he at least try to make a persuasive case to more swiftly usher her into truth and intellectual virtue?

    Here’s one decent-enough analogy: You’re arguing with a White Knight on a female-dating site who’s troubled by constant LJBFing from his gallant ways. After giving him a few tips in reminder that being a gentleman is usually supposed to be done without demanding any kind of reward, you simply can’t resistadding your real opinion: “Except chivalry is dead (and has always been just an emasculating beta-supplication naive dudes thinking they’ll get chicks)?”

    Now, even if you only take the part before the parentheses, that comment would be practically worthless, because you’re talking to a White Knight on a girls’ message board. You must be aware that the claim is not only unsettled, but also sure to meet disagreement; so it’s more like either trolling or utter obliviousness. Furthermore, if you actually think it would be great if the kid stuck to his guns, what’s the line at the end doing really? Perhaps this: “The ugly truth is always superior to a pretty lie!” Except, your “ode to truth” consisted entirely of assuming the very thing that needs to be proved. Plus, surely you’d be under no spell that you can go off-topic in a combox and manage to successfully drop a Matrix-unplugging red-pill of info on this dude, right? “But… Wait, huh? So let me get this straight. Do you hate facts or somethin’, bro? Look, don’t hate on me for being an independent truth-warrior, man.” (Fine, I let that dialogue get a bit hyperbolic and out-of-hand there. Moving on…)

    I honestly don’t know of many ways for me to sufficiently break down why I first respond, i.e., without being predictably misinterpreted and translated into anything more than: “You’re ultimately a medieval Inquisitor insecurely trying to cut off doubt and dialogue in order to oppress the free-thinking spirits of the innocent. But me? I bravely fight through storms of skepticism like every day; all of my beliefs are logically chained to an ultimate, internally-verified and indubitable foundation that makes Descartes blush w/embarrassment!”

    I expect that, because it appears subtly suggested in every response, so I presume you sincerely think that’s what all organized religion, esp. Catholicism, amounts to. Fine. Can we cut to the chase then? If you do indeed think it’s necessarily unjustified to believe any claim of an org. religion on the grounds of authority, just say so already, and it’ll be out in the open that there’s a principled, fundamental dispute against something Catholics accept. Frankly, Yohami seems pretty committed to inserting his philosophical faith in autonomy into this discussion of premarital sex. Of course, bias in itself can never discredit anyone’s opinion. Just nice to know when an argument is really a conflict over first principles. Neutrality is always an illusion if you look closely enough.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @OffTheCuff
    Having a feminizing influence on men in their actual teachings, can happen at the exact same time as these other things happen. One does not preclude the other. Your friend is a one-dimensional thinker.

    Whoa! No need to assume things about my friend just because I decided to be concise in my comment and only share the relevant details! She is perfectly aware that such things can happen at the same time with no contradiction. She was just extra amused* because she tends to hear the feminist objections more often, so the MRA critique was like “culture shock.”

    *The laughter was good-natured amusement. I guess the way I wrote it the first time made it seem like mockery?

  • GudEnuf

    BB:Do men ever regret sex?

    It happens :(

  • Pingback: The 1st Feline Batallion » Excuses for Lying and Cheating

  • http://en.gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    Bel: Right, I read it as mockery of the men’s position, as if it was patently laughable. If that’s not the case then my comment is invalidated.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/otc1 OffTheCuff

    Since this information is new to me, not personally aware of anyone who was raised with this message (‘cept for you guys in cyberspace), would you be so kind as to describe what “culture” teaches this? Would this be a specific religious group or is it a specific culture? Who’s exactly giving this message? parents? church?

    Feminism, plus church, plus silent parents.

    I remember reading one of Mom’s magazines when I was a kid. Inside, the author was describing being in the car with her teen boy. A girl in a tan shirt bouncily ran across the street, and they boy’s eyes followed the girl as she crossed the street.

    He didn’t get out. He didn’t catcall. He didn’t make disgusting remarks. The girl didn’t notice him watching.

    Yet, the mom was SHOCKED and HORRIFIED at her son’s terrible behavior and needed to lecture him.

    Clearly, then what I am expected to do, as a teen boy, is not look at women in a sexual way.

    Approaching them? Well, if you can’t *look* at them, then approaching them is right out, isn’t?

    (As an adult, I can only laugh at this. How did this women get to have a son? Some guy noticed her and had sex with her!)

    This was only one of about a billion messages that all aligned the same way. Once the seeds are planted very young, then you start noticing all the other feminist messages floating around that line up with that, and it builds upon itself. Compare that to the one Playboy I saw in the woods for all of 5 minutes in 2nd grade, and then my friend’s Dad’s Cheri magazine for 10 minutes in 4th grade. Church and feminist won by a landslide!

    In church, I got sent to a pre-teen class where they hammered on abstinence without absolutely no discussion, just telling you what to do. The book we read, geared towards middle schoolers was very clear, written by Dr. Dobson, and makes this big analogy to driving off a cliff. That’s right, if you have sex, you ARE GOING TO DIE!! Nothing about consequences, or what’s best of many options, or reasons other than “Because God says so”, just direct instillation of fear and authority.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Dr. A

    I have authority issues. I think Jesus was majestic and Buddha was the bomb, but I reject Christianity and Buddhism. All organized belief systems rub me the wrong way. That said, I DO have a great deal of respect for spiritual matters, and if BF’s choices are linked to beliefs that are personally meaningful to her, rather than simply imposed on her by an outside authority, then I totally respect those choices.

    Your white knight analogy was a good one. However, I think your hypothetical interlocutor was a bit more cynical than Yohami. Let’s said that instead of “chivalry’s dead,” the guy said, “you DO realize that all those stories of white knights are fictional, right?” Now such a statement might imply that I think that attempts at chivalry are pointless (not exactly true, btw, though not entirely false, either), but it’s not a direct attack on our poor white knight’s belief system. There’s the off chance that that comment alone will pose a real challenge to our knight, but if that’s the case, then maybe it’s a good thing; maybe his belief system was on shaky ground to begin with; maybe he needs to go with something more sustainable, something that will allow him to better realize happiness, etc… Or maybe he won’t care that the stories are fictional. Maybe he’ll get that they express a yearning towards an as-yet unrealized ideal, and maybe he’ll continue to try to embody that ideal.

    Whatever the case, I don’t think the comment (and this goes for Yohami’s real comment and our interlocutor’s hypothetical comment) is as damnable as you’re making it out to be. Flippant? Okay, sure. Odious, offensive, objectionable? Not so much.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    damn quotes!

    Dr A,

    While I’m not exactly sure why you’ve just shared some of your firmly-held beliefs re: bias and/or indoctrination w/me

    I just responded to your calling, bro:

    I was calling for Yohami to be more up-front about his religious bias (viz. against Catholic teaching)

    So lets settle this:

    we’ve got wildly different notions about what constitutes ‘bias’ or ‘indoctrination’

    BIAS is when you cant / wont process information because you have a preference about what the information should be. Bias is when presented with information that contradicts your preferences, you drop the information to keep your preferences intact.

    DOCTRINE is a fixed system of values, a method, a constant set of rules, goals, missions, preferences, embodied in its own context, that usually has the solution for everything.

    INDOCTRINATION is the act of pushing someone into a doctrine – and this is where I have the beef. While doctrines can (and some do) possess valuable aspects, during the indoctrination the “person” disappears and the “sheep” becomes alive.

    DOGMA is happens when doctrine successfully replaces reality.

    And I have met / talked to dogmatic scientifics. This isnt just about your Church. This is about the concept of Church and what humans do in them.

    the deeper fear of appearing to possess the doxastic suggestibility of a slaughter-bound farm animal.

    Thing is, even when / if things start out good for the doctrines, adoctrinated people that act like sheeps and cant question the rules they live under and are dependent on a pastor, guide, leader, etc, are vulnerable to impostors.

    Tricking people who wants to believe is easy. And this is not about religion. Tricking people who wants to believe in the american dream is easy. Tricking people who “wants to” is easy.

    In the context of a doctrine, what usually happens is that the wrong people with the wrong motives get to the leadership positions and the doctrine becomes corrupt, and the sheeps end up in the slaughterhouse, usually doing stuff that is against the very foundation of their doctrine. All because the whole time they are unaware and just following, and the leader happens to be a crocodile in disguise, and the doctrine is just a sheep fluids / meat extractor machine by now.

    Check feminism. Check capitalism. Check communism. Check positivism. Check democracy. Check any side of politics. Check the education system. Check Game. Its all the same.

    You dont have to “believe” me. Just check history. You can even check your own Catholic Church history.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Steph,

    As a fellow fiction writer and lover of reading, I believe that narrative fiction can convey truths in ways that other types of writing simply doesn’t. I chose that hypothetical comment because I thought it paralleled what Yohami was saying about the church’s stance on pre-marital sex. If the Bible doesn’t proscribe pre-marital sex as a sin, then the church created that sin themselves, in much the same way that chivalric writers created the code of honor by which white knights lived.

    One of the major differences between fiction and the established myths we call religions is that we can decide which truths speak to us in literature and which do not, whereas with religion, we don’t have that freedom. We either follow their code or burn in hellfire for eternity.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mahoney,

    If the Bible doesn’t proscribe pre-marital sex as a sin, then the church created that sin themselves, in much the same way that chivalric writers created the code of honor by which white knights lived.

    I dont know about the Bible, but the Bible was written by a committee (and not by God). What I said was:

    “Except God never said anything about being virgin until marriage?”

    And Im saying it as a question. I know less about Christianity than BF and Dr A, but if God ever had said ANYTHING like “be a virgin and you will deserve heaven”, it would be vox populi, and it isnt, so I bet my two cents God didnt say it.

    After I questioned that, I did a short research. I found “fornication” as a sin, and a lot of religious blogs giving interpretations on passages of the bible.

    So, God never said it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, God never said it?

      Well, it certainly didn’t make the Top 10.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Yohami,

    I have no idea what god alleged said about pre-marital sex, but it’s a moot point to me, since I don’t believe he exists. And the Bible stories were selected by committee, but were culled from a variety of times and places from the ancient Middle East. Though, of course, religious people believe that it’s the word of god, and you can’t argue with faith, since it’s not reason-based. That’s the essence of faith: you believe even though you have no rational basis for that belief. If you had a rational basis, you wouldn’t require faith.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Actually, it was about “sexual immorality”, people who would fornicate, go orgies, do homo stuff, practice adultery.

    Sex under marriage wasnt listed in my short research. But you can easily depict anything as being “immoral” because morality is an human made thing that changes often… that would result in “sins” changing often, too.

    “Enjoying” sex with your husband can be immoral if the current morality says “sex should be about procreation only”. I think some sects were like that? fucking through blankets.

    What do you gain from all of that shame and guilt? really. Is that just about protecting yourself from making mistakes, like a kid who is terrorized about dogs, so he wont approach dogs / wont get biten? if so, arent you paying an absurdly high price for the little comfort you get out of it?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Mahoney,

    Though, of course, religious people believe that it’s the word of god, and you can’t argue with faith, since it’s not reason-based.

    Eh. The bible contains stories, testimonials, etc. But it also has passages where God speaks directly to someone. And then, Jesus speaks too, a lot.

    It doesnt matter if the characters are real or not. My point / question is Im 99% sure they (God) didnt say anything about virginity-before-marriage.

    Anything.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    How if I was practising Buddhism and dressing pink, and then found Buddah never said anything about pink? or that he said I should not pay attention to my clothing? should I follow the pink crowd and distance myself from Buddah, follow Buddah and distance myself from the pink crowd, or distance from the whole thing?

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    You listed a lot of good arguments there. But, see, these are arguments. People can balance the arguments and pick their choices. Make conscious decisions. And this is vital because when people make decisions, then they are responsible for the consequences of such, good and bad, and it allows for iteration and growing.

    But is people do stuff based on shame, guilt and herd following, whats gained? even when things go well, it doesnt mean anything for the character of such people. It doesnt even mean people are getting happy.

    In this case if you balance STDs and risk and lonely and consequences vs fun and now and whatever, people can pick a poison and see where it goes.

    If you make it about shame, you manipulate people and the results cant be good. At least not in my book. People manipulated into promiscuity = people manipulated into chastity. One gets STDs, the other gets their soul trapped, both die equally ignorant.

  • anonymous

    @ OTC
    Thank you for answering my question.
    So are you saying that fathers are basically silent or uninvolved in teaching boys about sexuality? Do the men ever question this?
    It must be very difficult to exhibit such control when the environment is flaunting the female body at you everywhere you turn.

    It’s so starkly different from my male relatives’ upbringing where they’re taught to make googly-flirty eyes at women since toddlerhood. Not that I’m fully on-board with that because I’ve seen it be harmful to boys- especially those who are naturally less aggressive, but I honestly was oblivious of this other extreme until recently.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    Freedom without a conscience + indulgence is such a low thing. A good market for the manipulators to profit without much effort, too.

    Its like the arkade & candy´s owner “freeing” the kids from school.

  • http://www.yohami.com YOHAMI

    Stephie,

    Again I agree but I think the difference is that you assume that people in general terms can be taught to have a conscience and somehow they haven’t yet because they had been oppressed by the upper class or something like it.

    I think everyone has one, and that everyone has the capacity to develop character. I do see (its not that I think it, but that I see it happening) that the whole system, starting from school, is designed in a way it suppresses and punishes critical thinking.

    And, belonging and going with the herd isnt bad per se. If thats a herd you decided to go along with. The desire to belonging and going along with other people is good, and we survive because of it.

    But belonging and going with the herd as the only thing one cares about? eh. Not that good.

    I agree most people will just be followers. Even when given the choice, they will choose to belong. Its the path of less resistance.

    I think the fix would be to create / free enough critical thinkers, so they gather power and fix / create herds other people can belong to.

    Like good parents creating good families where kids can belong, and can be healthy without having to question the family values.

    In the current society, questioning and rebelling is the only way to healthy. Unfortunately rebellion on its own is a open ended mess that can result in anything.

  • tito

    excuses come in spades from a weak and inferior culture, which is what we have. maybe more ‘liberation’ would help?

  • bidders

    my girlfriend left me because ”i couldn’t understand her” she still wants to be friends, but i know that she likes my best friend, she even said that he understands her. Just wish she’d have f***ing told me that before we even started dating. My tip, don’t trust face value people can be f***ing with you