Why Playing Hard to Get is a Losing Strategy

September 15, 2011

Note: For the purposes of this article, playing hard to get means making men jump through hoops for the privilege of spending time with you or getting to know you. It does not mean delaying sex until emotional intimacy is established, which is always sound strategy.  

We live in an era where young male mating preferences follow this approximate order:

1. One-night stand

2. Regular hookup partner

3. FWB

4. Dating

5. Celibate

It’s not surprising that the most desirable or dominant men sit astride the top of this pyramid, while less socially dominant males may consider themselves lucky to get a girlfriend.

This means that women playing hard to get are looking at scant odds. If you’re aiming for the hottest guy in the bar, you’re wandering in Hit and Quit territory. If it’s any more complicated than “Let’s go” you’re going to come up empty.

If your goal is to find a good guy boyfriend, you’re targeting a group of guys who by definition have fewer options. They’ll be easily discouraged by your evasive and manipulative “Rules” moves.

Yet the “hard to get” strategy is still a female favorite. 

1. Perhaps your mother told you that guys love the chase, and want to work for your attention.

That was true in her day, but no longer.

2. You might play hard to get in order to communicate that you’re not a slut.

Most men willing to double down and chase hard prefer that you are one, and will disappear quickly if sex doesn’t happen early on. Occasionally a real cad will hover in the end zone for a while, but then it’s touchdown and Game Over.

3. Maybe you think that being hard to get communicates that you have lots of options. 

This is female projection. Men pursue who they are attracted to, and are not influenced by social proof to the same degree as women.

In fact, research shows that women are more attracted to men who they are unsure of. But even in those cases, the victory is short-lived. As E.B. writes in The Economist:

“Playing hard to get enhances one’s appeal at first, but beyond enriching a relationship’s origination myth (eg, “She wouldn’t even look at me for weeks!”), it doesn’t do anything to sustain one’s appeal once the stakes are raised. It’s a crafty opening gambit.”

But how do men feel about women who are hard to get?

From the always interesting Psyblog written by Jeremy Dean:

“Back in the 60s and 70s, before the sexual revolution had really taken hold, the standard dating advice for women was play hard to get. In some quarters it still is.

Like the Roman poet Ovid 2,000 years earlier, social scientists in the 1960s accepted the cultural lore that women could increase their desirability by being coy. When interviewed, men seemed to agree: they said that hard to get women were probably more popular, beautiful and had better personalities.”

A 1973 study conducted by Elaine Walster at Wisconsin investigated how men feel about women who are hard to get. Single men were given a portfolio of five women, and were told those women had already rated them, as well as four other guys. 

“This was all a ruse, however, to set up a series of experimental conditions related to how hard to get each of the women appeared to be. Each woman fell into one of the following categories:

  • Easy to get: had apparently given high ratings to all five men, including the participant.
  • Selectively hard to get: liked the participant but not the other four men.
  • Always hard to get: didn’t like any of the men, including the participant.
  • No information: there was no information provided about two of the women.”
Check out the results: 

“Each man saw the women’s ratings, including of themselves, then chose one to date.  One woman was far and away more popular than the others, and it had nothing to do with the small variations in their descriptions:
  • Easy to get: 5
  • Selectively hard to get: 42
  • Always hard to get: 6
  • No information: 11 and 7 for the two women for which no information was provided.”
Here is the critical finding: 

 

The woman who was apparently selectively hard to get, i.e. easy for you but hard for everyone else was the runaway winner for the men. Not only that but men thought the selectively hard to get woman would have all the advantages of the easy to get woman with none of the drawbacks of the hard to get woman. They thought she would be popular, warm and easygoing, but not demanding and difficult. 

Showing selective interest is the best strategy for women. 

 

So this experiment suggests that playing hard to get only works in the sense that it signals selectivity. But for the person you are after, you should be easy to get because otherwise they’ll assume you’re hard work. 

 

Remember, you must consider the male in question. How hard is he willing to work, and what is he working for? If you want a man who is willing to work for a relationship, it makes no sense to target guys having one-night stands. When you become interested in a man who is relationship-oriented, you must be “easy to get” for him alone. This is especially crucial now, 40 years after the Sexual Revolution.

How can a woman communicate that she is selectively easy to get? 

What can a woman do to be more approachable to the right men?

Should women initiate outright?

I’ll tackle these questions in my next post, with some choice quotes from fellow bloggers and HUS commenters.

6 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    I have never been able to pull off “playing hard to get” – if I wanted to talk to a guy, I talked to him. In fact, it was a fairly good indicator that I wasn’t interested if I stopped communicating right away.

    Susan, have you read the book “The Cheerleader” it’s about girls in New Hampshire in the 50s (possibly) and their dating experiences. Well, mostly one girl. I’d highly recommend it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, have you read the book “The Cheerleader” it’s about girls in New Hampshire in the 50s (possibly) and their dating experiences. Well, mostly one girl. I’d highly recommend it.

      I haven’t ever heard of it, but I’ve just requested it, thanks for sharing!

  • Tiger4Christ

    David X says to treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore. I’ve been surprised how many nice seeming women responded badly when treated like ladies. I triggered submerged guilt or otherwise contradicted their internal self image.

    From the male point of view, how does the man detect the women that is selectively easy, versus the one that just tumbles into bed? And you are right, it is the women that like us, but are exclusive to us, that we like the most.

    True story; my ex chased me for a year. She had hard work to do, because I’d been burnt in the Romantic field. Yet, she managed to communicate a) that many guys were chasing her and b) she wasn’t letting them get near her. She always took my phone calls. In fact, when I tried to hang up, she urged me to stay on longer. When I came to visit, she handled all logistics. She didn’t flake on me, she didn’t ignore me. Etc. Etc. She didn’t rag on me until after she was sure I was hooked. But that is a different story.

    Looking back now, I still don’t know if she was really chaste. Looking through Roissy’s list of “slut tells”, she could very well have been a total hoe. But she communicated effectively to me what I wanted. Which is what you have described here. Bravo.

    When a woman is just being “hard to get” because she is conditioned that way… how do I tell if she is a “good girl” conditioned that way, or if she genuinely isn’t interested? I grew up religious; I did see quite a few girls doing the “hard to get thing”. Behind closed doors they were CRAZY about the cute guy in church. But they stayed far away from him. Their conscious avoidance of the man was almost an indicator of their attraction. Heaven forbid anyone should know; everyone would laugh!

    So, coming out of a church environment like that, you can see how confusing the dating scene is. Does the woman just like ME, or is she a slut in general? If a woman is avoiding me, is it because she is attracted to me, or is it because I’m a scary creep? Different culture; extremely hard to adapt. Because such “church girls” are seeded through the population.

  • LS

    If she’s not interested, I lose interest pretty darn quick.

    If she’s not interesting (regardless of looks), I lose interest pretty darn quick.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Men prefer women who screen over women who would do it with everybody. Yes.

  • Sassy6519

    I’ve found the best way to appear “selectively easy to get” in a bar setting was to not flirt with anything and everything with a penis and a pulse. I try to focus my attention on my friends/the television/my phone, etc when in a bar and typically wait for guys to approach me. When they do approach, if I’m attracted to them, I’ll keep the conversation going and give body-language cues that I’m interested. If I’m not attracted to the guy, I’m polite, but I keep the conversation short and I don’t give off the flirty body cues.

    I’ve talked to some of my guy friends about this in the past, and they think this strategy is pretty solid. I asked them if it would be better for me to be more forward and approach guys myself, but they told me it tends to come off as “desperation” to them when women approach them. I guess that’s how alphas “on the hunt” see it. They would rather take down a strong and healthy gazelle themselves than have a gazelle walk up to and offer itself to them. They like the sport/chase aspect of getting women.

    I love confident men, so it’s a turn-on to me when a guy approaches me. It shows me that he is masculine, brave, and able to overcome any fear he may have to get what he wants.

  • http://www.nomadicneill.com NomadicNeill

    I think I might be dealing with someone who is hard to get right now, so it’s quite interesting to think about.

    It’s challenging to be cognisant of how my own attraction works (beyond looks) but I’ll give it a go.

    How can a woman communicate that she is selectively easy to get?

    I think if a woman is explicit about what she likes specifically in that guy it may alleviate his fears.

    What can a woman do to be more approachable to the right men?

    Hang out in the right places, possibly with male friends that are connected and friends with similar guys.

    Should women initiate outright?

    I don’t mind women initiating anything but the reality of the situation is that most men and women will experience less attraction when the roles are reversed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      the reality of the situation is that most men and women will experience less attraction when the roles are reversed.

      Yes, this is what I’m hearing from men, for the most part. Aside from a few “By all means!” responses, most guys admit that it wouldn’t feel quite right somehow. And it’s been pointed out that if a woman doesn’t start out knowing if a guy was motivated to pursue, she’ll never know for sure.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    My take:

    How can a woman communicate that she is selectively easy to get?

    Being friendly. But “selectively hard to get” works better if she is looking for a serious relationship and she is not the one initiating.

    What can a woman do to be more approachable to the right men?

    Commonalities with the right man. That means the screening happened before any interaction, and the girl put herself in the right place and at the right time and did her homework. If you like Star Wars, camp the Star Wars convention.

    Should women initiate outright?

    Usually being approachable works better than initiating first. Why. When the girl initiates it automatically adds a x10 sexual tension. If she then proceeds to screen and shit test, the x10 multiplier also applies and can be nasty. Thats why a lot of girls end up with the “guys are afraid of me” thing. If she is into casual, which has less screening, then initiating first works like magic. She can also initiate first if she already screened. The constant is that the amount of interest has to be way bigger than the amount of barriers if she is the one initiating. Otherwise it comes across as “this girl was all over me and now is acting like a bitch!”

  • Stanley

    Seriously, whenever I read articles giving advice on how women should play hard to get I think of one thing: WHO’S THE PRIZE NOW? A successful man or a pretty woman. There are so many pretty women and so few rich men that matches their financial requirements it makes men the prize.

  • Dogsquat

    My favorite signal from a woman is the full body hug. A regular hug omits any lower body contact. A full body hug is where she presses her hips into yours, so you have pelvis to pelvis contact. Also, the girl will tend to hold on a beat longer than normal.

    If I’m attracted to the girl (and single), I feel like an old cavalry horse who hears guns in the distance…I paw the earth, snort a couple times, and gird my loins for….well, something.

    That’s a good signal to start paying attention, and very nice even if I turn out to be uninterested in the gal as a relationship partner.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My favorite signal from a woman is the full body hug. A regular hug omits any lower body contact. A full body hug is where she presses her hips into yours, so you have pelvis to pelvis contact. Also, the girl will tend to hold on a beat longer than normal.

      What?! That is very sexually aggressive, don’t you think? How does that communicate selectivity?

  • jim

    Men are always going to be the catch. Especially in this economy.

    Look I’m 40 and single, house is paid and I’m out of work and taking it easy. Probably take the rest of year off. Women OTOH I notice, are starting to lose their jobs because of layoffs and shutdowns. Hello, not everyone in the USA is a college graduate and executive. Plenty of women out there working regular jobs with regular pay. You best wake up to that factor because they are the one’s who have the most to lose by playing games. And it’s not a matter of a guy trying to manipulate women are even impress them but at some point these women are going to be faced with some important decisions with important implications. And their windows of opportunity will be short.

    Obviously the above isn’t for your “professionally” educated readers but I dare say even they will be faced will plenty of economic hardship as the years pass. Their jobs are disappearing and not coming back. And playing games is actually playing with fire.

  • Brian

    This isn’t very hard to figure out. Guys want the girl that’s into him because she likes him and him alone, that she selected him for other reasons than simply having a penis and a pulse, or a fat bank account.

    For those wondering how a girl can be “selectively hard to get”, this isn’t hard either. Make it known to him that you are interested, but he’ll have to lead if he wants to keep you. Most men know innately how to lead, all the trouble begins with anxiety over whether or not you will follow. Think Jerry Maguire and “who’s coming with me?” If you’re answer’s not yes, don’t make him stand there dumbfounded.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Make it known to him that you are interested, but he’ll have to lead if he wants to keep you. Most men know innately how to lead, all the trouble begins with anxiety over whether or not you will follow.

      Yes, this makes sense. The risk of rejection is higher than ever before, IMO. I think a woman has to find ways of differentiating. If he’s in a group of guys, single him out particularly and focus on him. If he suggests hanging out, agree enthusiastically and possibly suggest a time, or at least a range, e.g. one night next week. I would add touch him lightly and briefly in non-sexual ways – like on the forearm.

  • http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/ MarkyMark

    If I have to wonder if a chick is interested, I assume she’s not, and govern myself accordingly-especially in today’s legal environment! Making anything more than single, attempted pursuit can get one a stalking charge these days…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If I have to wonder if a chick is interested, I assume she’s not, and govern myself accordingly-especially in today’s legal environment! Making anything more than single, attempted pursuit can get one a stalking charge these days…

      Good point. Another reason women have to send clear signals of interest. It’s a fine line to walk though – at what point do a series of IOIs come across as desperate, or worse, sexually aggressive?

  • raxox1

    From what I got out of the reading, men like the women who make themselves available to just them and hard to get to other men…this is the complete opposite for women; we badly want the guy who is giving all the attention to another girl and wonder “What makes her so special that he’s not giving me that kind of attention, I want to make him mine”. So essentially the ‘hard to get guy’ is easily more desirable to us and the guy who makes himself readily available to us(appears clingy) seems like a nuisance. Bottom line it’s the GIRL who wants a hard to get guy and not the guy who wants a hard to get girl as was once believed. My question is, if a guy likes a girl that’s ‘easy’ to them, why don’t they find her a nuisance like girls find an ‘easy’ guy? And how does a girl show a guy that she is selective? Would this strategy apply to only betas, or alphas as well?

  • Dave

    Jim nailed it. Economic changes are changing dating dynamics. Women playing hard to get should prepare themselves for the very real possibility of spinsterhood.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Economic changes are changing dating dynamics. Women playing hard to get should prepare themselves for the very real possibility of spinsterhood.

      There are already plenty of examples of women being way too hard to get without good cause. Real-life examples of dealbreakers like “has a denim couch” or “doesn’t have the requisite wine knowledge” can be found in a whole new genre of spinsterhood lit and humor. Furthermore, regardless of how the economy fares, one third of college women will not marry college educated men, due to the sex ratios in American colleges. Whether they marry men with less education or forego marriage entirely remains to be seen, and will obviously depend heavily on what men want.

  • june

    I think this is a little off base…i think what many get confused about in the discussion of playing “hard to get” is that many relationship advice “experts” or whatever you want to call them are more hitting on the notion of having your own life and KEEPING IT despite having or not having a man. This is very different from the standard definition of “playing hard to get”, emphasis on the word game. In the classic definition women playing hard to get would make up excuses for not having time to hang out, or intentionally not answer a phone call, whereas the new standard of “playing hard to get” calls upon none of this. It simply requires you to be passionate about your own life and interests and not canceling your weekly pilates class to go on a date. Having passion for your own hobbies and interests is attractive in and of itself. It makes it appear as though the “chase” is what is desired, when actually having a life is what is desired. So i think this discussion largely depends on who’s definition of “playing hard to get” is being used. Personally, i dont think it really matters what “kind” of man (cad, beta etc) you’re going after. Given the right girl, a cad could renounce his ways. I’m not saying this is what happens 99% of the time, but it does happen. I think it is just all more complicated than you make it seem sometimes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @june

      the new standard of “playing hard to get” calls upon none of this. It simply requires you to be passionate about your own life and interests and not canceling your weekly pilates class to go on a date.

      This is a question of semantics. In your example, which really just describes a self-respecting person with a full life, there is no playing going on.

      Personally, i dont think it really matters what “kind” of man (cad, beta etc) you’re going after. Given the right girl, a cad could renounce his ways. I’m not saying this is what happens 99% of the time, but it does happen.

      By definition cads are men of poor character, as they employ deceit to get sex with women. While reformation is possible, I’d say it is extremely unlikely. In any case, women would do well to seriously consider whether they want to pledge commitment to a man who is a natural schemer.

      Players do sometimes “reform” when they desire marriage and a family. Even then, though, committing to a man with a very high partner count is risky if your goal is lifelong monogamy.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Susan,

    What?! That is very sexually aggressive, don’t you think? How does that communicate selectivity?

    Thats very common. It communicates selectivity because you´re the one selected. I like it when its a group hug and several girls want attention at the same time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I like it when its a group hug and several girls want attention at the same time.

      Ha, yes, there’s a famous pic of Mystery hugging two women at once. But if a woman gives you a full body hug as an initial IOI, don’t you wonder how frequently she does that? That’s a lot of pelvises to be pressing up against. Again, I’m not focusing on casual sex here. For casual sex, the more overt the interest the better.

  • http://xxcollegechronicles.wordpress.com/ ResrieG

    I think that there are some of girls who don’t bother to play hard to get initially but may use it as a strategy with guys they’re already dating. For instance, if they want things to move forward with a guy but he hasn’t been showing enough interest, or doesn’t text her to make plans as often as she thinks he should, she’ll pull away to try and encourage him to chase her again. I imagine this would be seen as a form of shit testing and wouldn’t be welcomed by guys, so what is the correct strategy for girls who feel that they’re in a dating relationship that isn’t progressing the way they want?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ResrieG

      For instance, if they want things to move forward with a guy but he hasn’t been showing enough interest, or doesn’t text her to make plans as often as she thinks he should, she’ll pull away to try and encourage him to chase her again

      Well, taking a step back is certainly better than getting clingy or needy. But I wouldn’t recommend it as a scheme to get him anxious. If he isn’t showing interest, manipulating him into a false sense of scarcity or jealousy is a short-term fix, at best.

      If you sense things are not going as well as you would like, refocus on living your own life without any dependence on someone you even know all that well. It will help if you’re not too invested in the early stages.

      I always tell young women to keep in mind that the end goal is one relationship that survives and thrives. That probably means many false starts, things that don’t work out, etc. It’s a natural part of the process, so in that sense those “fails” should be welcomed.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    Yohami beat me to it there Susan, it’s VERY common. girls will hug you, but girls selecting you will usually hug you as hair longer (as Devil-Dog put it).

    one of the girls i know back home know’s how fond of breasts i am, when she hugs me, she’ll squeeze her breasts into my my chest. she know’s it drives me crazy.

    damn you women. lol.

  • GudEnuf

    Susan must be the hippest mom on the planet. Very few boomers understand the concept of a sexual marketplace, let alone the SMP on college campuses.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan must be the hippest mom on the planet.

      :-) What a perfect way to start my Friday – thanks for putting a spring in my step.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    so what is the correct strategy for girls who feel that they’re in a dating relationship that isn’t progressing the way they want?

    Define “progressing”?

    But for starters, she should examine if she really needs that “progression” or if it’s just a an example of her friends or society telling her she needs it.

    And from there, never try to apply pressure to make a guy change or make ultimatums… the guy will either dump her, mentally check out, or go sickeningly beta… none of which are good results.

  • Ceer

    Girls employing the hard to get strategy, shit testing tactics, or high LMR should be careful about how they go about doing it. Many younger men will see this and confuse it for lack of interest or bossiness. I’ve seen both of these.

    Most emotionally mature men know the score enough to understand and appreciate a woman’s direct communication.

  • Tiger4Christ

    Proximity. Let the guy initiate, but put yourself in a situation where he knows he can initiate. Put yourself where he can hear you talk. Put yourself near him. Like the enterprising girl who “oops!” spilled her drink when walking in front of his table. One woman “accidentally” mis-sent an email to her client. It included her phone number of course. Years later she admitted it was deliberate. I phoned her, of course. Did she take the initiative? No. I phoned her. But she sure made it easy for me to take the initiative!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One woman “accidentally” mis-sent an email to her client. It included her phone number of course. Years later she admitted it was deliberate. I phoned her, of course. Did she take the initiative? No. I phoned her. But she sure made it easy for me to take the initiative!

      Wow, she was definitely enterprising. I’m impressed because she made a move with total cover of plausible deniability. Brilliant.

  • I thought *I* was Bob

    The woman has to come looking for me from time to time, or I lose interest. Perhaps I was warped for life early on. I need to know that she wants to be there.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    How can a woman communicate that she is selectively easy to get?

    One way not to do it is with pictures. I was slightly interested in this girl not too long ago. She posted two pictures one of which was her literally surround by 4-5 guys. She was the only girl in the room. I thought it was the beginning of a bad porno.

    I have responded favorably to watching guys approach a girl and, during the conversation, she’ll look over and make and hold eye contact with me. That was a pretty good sign I was in like Flynn.

    What can a woman do to be more approachable to the right men?

    Smile and don’t brush off my eye contact. Also, don’t give mixed signals. This might seem obvious but two women at my gym did this to me awhile back. From a distance away they would make and hold eye contact but the moment I approached, they’d turn cold. Months later, they’d both give me evil looks before disappearing. Now that I’m better in that department I know it means I missed out on two girls.

    Should women initiate outright?

    Maybe, I suppose it depends. My female friends have beaten it into my head that I should never approach women at my gym. So in a situation like that, I’d say approach (Because I won’t), even if it’s a cheesy obvious ploy like asking the guy to show you how to use a piece of equipment. After that, just keep the conversation going. No matter how stand-offish the guy is, eventually it will click.

    A word of caution though, I would strongly encourage girls reading this advice to start learning our IOIs (Indicator’s of interest). Personally, I think we’re open books but obviously you ladies would disagree. Your best bet is to have a friend observe us in our reaction to you. I remember a girl who had her friend watch me as I watched her have a conversation with another guy. Embarrassing for me but it gave her the info about how I felt about her.

    The reason I say caution is that you have to understand, you’re either hot enough or you’re not. If you aren’t, no matter how good your approach is, it’s going to go badly for you. However, if you are what we like, you can’t imagine how focused we can become. Watching hot coeds walk by and seeing every male head turn never gets old. It’s almost as enjoyable as drinking in their beauty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Michael of Charlotte

      She posted two pictures one of which was her literally surround by 4-5 guys. She was the only girl in the room. I thought it was the beginning of a bad porno.

      Haha! OK Cupid says that women should not post any photos with other guys even present. It definitely drives down the number of responses.

      A word of caution though, I would strongly encourage girls reading this advice to start learning our IOIs (Indicator’s of interest).

      Great suggestion. What are they?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Should women initiate outright?”

    I hear women saying they don’t want to initiate because they think they will come off as slutty. That’s total crap. If you walk up to a guy and rub your ass on him, you look like a slut. If you wlak up and say hi or otherwise initiate conversation, you look friendly – a big plus for LTR material.

    Also, on the topic of hugs, I’d be interested to hear from large-breasted women on whether they get more hugs than their friends from men of similar acquaintance level so dudes can get a feel of those funbags.

  • http://ithinkilostgod.wordpress.com/ Butterfly Flower

    I don’t understand why so many of my friends are convinced guys want them to play games.

    I just walked up to my boyfriend and, well… passionately kissed him [- we had UST; I decided to resolve it :)]

    If you like a guy, tell him! Men aren’t telepathic; if you act disinterested, they assume you’re disinterested and move on. Men hate rejection just as much as women hate rejection.

    Proximity. Let the guy initiate, but put yourself in a situation where he knows he can initiate.

    …but do guys prefer if a girl indicates that she wants to be approached/lead the guy to making the first move? Or would they rather have her just initiate?

    I personally feel like leading a guy into approaching [like your example - the woman who sent the email with her # pretending it was for someone else] is manipulative. I feel like being straight-forward and honest would be the more romantic thing to do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Butterfly Flower

      I just walked up to my boyfriend and, well… passionately kissed him [- we had UST; I decided to resolve it :)]

      Good for you! Obvs you must have felt pretty secure your passion would be reciprocated…

      If you like a guy, tell him! Men aren’t telepathic; if you act disinterested, they assume you’re disinterested and move on.

      I think this really depends on the IOIs you’re getting. The risk of rejection is high. When I first told my husband I liked him, I already knew he wasn’t very interested. I just wanted to get it off my chest. I figured it was obvious, but he was not expecting it at all, and eventually it made a big difference.

  • SayWhaat

    If you walk up to a guy and rub your ass on him, you look like a slut. If you wlak up and say hi or otherwise initiate conversation, you look friendly – a big plus for LTR material.

    Context matters as well. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression I’ve gotten is that approaching men when in a bar (even if the gesture is just friendly) can come across as an ONS-hunt.

    I’d be interested to hear from large-breasted women on whether they get more hugs than their friends from men of similar acquaintance level so dudes can get a feel of those funbags.

    …..

    Welp, that demystifies a few things. Lol.

  • Mike C

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression I’ve gotten is that approaching men when in a bar (even if the gesture is just friendly) can come across as an ONS-hunt.

    Not necessarily. I know I wouldn’t automatically assume that, and then you would see what the vibe and direction of any conversation goes in.

  • Mike C

    I don’t understand why so many of my friends are convinced guys want them to play games.

    Projection, pure and simple. Your friends think guys want that because that is what they want from guys.

  • Mike C

    …but do guys prefer if a girl indicates that she wants to be approached/lead the guy to making the first move? Or would they rather have her just initiate?

    I think the majority of guys would prefer the former, but it really is up to the girl in that case to send the IOIs with unmistakeable blinking neon lights. Even then, you might have some guys oblivious, and the girl would have to initiate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think the majority of guys would prefer the former, but it really is up to the girl in that case to send the IOIs with unmistakeable blinking neon lights.

      This is where it falls apart a lot of the time. Women think they’re being obvious, men aren’t getting the signal at all.

  • Johnycomelately

    Almost every man confuses friendliness for an IOI, an attractive friend that just has a naturally friendly demeanour and is open to everyone gets hit on ALL the time, she smiles a lot and guys invariably confuse smiling with IOIs.

    Mind you, my grumpy soon to be spinster for life cousin wouldn’t know how to smile unless it was surgically implanted.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Johnycomelately

    Almost every man confuses friendliness for an IOI

    Sure. But it works the other way around too, seeing every IOI as someone just being friendly. “She doesn’t mean anything by that.”

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    What?! That is very sexually aggressive, don’t you think? How does that communicate selectivity?

    ___________________________

    Just to reiterate what Doc Danny, Yohami, Badger, and others have said:

    I dunno – I think it’s a clear signal to the guy getting the hug, but from across the room it’s just a quick hug goodbye – easily deniable. I’m not talking a 10 second dry hump here – whole thing takes about 2.5 seconds – or less. You’ve either got to be the guy getting the hug to notice, or be watching quite closely.

    For the ladies who are interested in incorporating this move – don’t be a dingdong high school chick about it. Subtlety is key. If the guy you like is leaving (work or school or party – wherever) and you happen to be standing there, give it a rip. Don’t come hauling ass across the building screeching at the top of your lungs. Just hug hug little squeeze let go eye contact turn and walk away that’s it. Takes as long as it took you to read that last sentence. You can throw a quick lower-lip bite in there after the eye contact is dropped if the guy you’re after is particularly dense.

    It makes me start paying attention to how the girl acts with other guys. If I see other guys getting handshakes, or pat on the back hips apart hugs, or,”See you later, dude!” with no physical contact – that is what I consider an Objective Finding.

    This Finding is called the Positive Pelvis Sign, and there is a close clinical correlation with dangerously low serum Vitamin Dogsquat levels.

    You gals will know you’re successful if the guy asks you out shortly after, or if he busts out a positive Throckmorton’s Sign (look that one up for yourself).

    I’ve had this stunt pulled on me a few times, usually by women I’ve worked with for awhile, or know through my social circle.

    If I’m interested in the girl I’ll definitely make something happen after that.

    Caveat:

    I have no idea if I’m alpha or bravo or charlie or whatever. I get lots of IOIs from girls, though – far more girls than I’m interested in dating. I don’t do pump and dumps, and I’ve never had nor am I interested in one-night-stands.

    This move has never failed to get my attention, and if I’m single I definitely start evaluating the girl (if I haven’t already).

    I just read over that and I think it sounds like I’m bragging or something – not my intention. I’m just sharing a technique that’s worked on me, and as such, might be useful to some nice gal out there.

    I do not recommend dating grunts or paramedics, though – we’re all terrible people who laugh like hyenas at jokes that make normal people puke. Then we laugh at you puking.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat
      That move is a new one to me, and I like it. It’s obviously better with someone you’re already acquainted with. I thought you were suggesting it for a night out at the bar, lol.

  • Tiger4Christ

    Dropping the handkerchief… in todays day and age I’ve seen women do similar things. Leave their purse behind, etc. If the man has good manners, he will pick it up and run after them. This selects for men who are considerate and observant.

    Personally, I like it. Woman leaves door obviously open. Man can pursue or not. Noone loses face.

    The poster who talked about female approachers was right; if the woman has to approach, it amplifies everything 10 times. The positives and the negatives. If a guy is really oblivious, then go for it. He might well say no. But don’t be discouraged. Your offer might take a bit of time to sink in, and he will regret having turned you down. If he starts being in close proximity and giving you more openings, just re-open him, apologize if you made him feel uncomfortable, you were just being honest with your feelings. Monitor his reactions.

  • Dogsquat

    Hey, SayWhaat –

    We’ve had a few less than friendly words over the past few days.

    Howsabout we hug it out?

  • Jennifer

    Tiger, awesome advice!

  • 108spirits

    @ Susan, no young man has ONS at the very top of his list, unless he’s never had one before. What’s at the top is a rotating harem of FWB. Get with the time, Mama Sue.

    You’ve so far covered the approach. As said, girls need to think “selectively hard to get”. Go a bit extra to make the guy feel more special than the others. It has to be clear enough that he knows it’s not just you being friendly. If he digs you, he will like you more, not less, unlike the reverse (girls knowing a guy already digs them will start liking him less). Girls don’t have to outright initiate anything, but need to make it easy for the guy to do so.

    One of my most favourite girls approached me by eyeballing me while I was dancing with another, and getting in my way after that dance as I was getting off the floor with the other girl, leaving me no chance but to ask her for a dance. I had a broken wrist at the time and was wearing a cast on my forearm. Straight after, she sat me down and said she wanted to draw something nice on my cast. Extra nice physical contact & clear IOI without appearing easy. Of course I wasn’t dumb, so I asked her to go see a show a few days later, and she enthusiastically gave me her number… Was great while it lasted, she made everything I did to be with her seem effortless, instead of the typical tiring jumping through hoops.

    After the approach, nearly every girl would further play hard to get by being very flakey on dates. This is the pet peeve of every guy and what has led to the death of dating, replaced by “hanging out”. If you girls want a guy to take you out on dates, you need to communicate very clearly to him that you’re not that type of girl i.e not the majority. Because nearly every guy has been burnt on that many times, or at least having had to deal with the anxiety over something as basic as agreeing to spend some time one on one with each other and sticking to that deal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @108

      Susan, no young man has ONS at the very top of his list, unless he’s never had one before. What’s at the top is a rotating harem of FWB. Get with the time, Mama Sue.

      Makes sense, thanks for the insight.

      Great comment too on flaking. That is just the height of rudeness and I don’t know how parents can raise their daughters to think this is OK. I’ll admit this was a tough thing when my daughter was growing up. For example, she’d agree to attend someone’s violin recital, then get an invitation to a birthday party and want to flake on her commitment. I never allowed this and of course there was much stomping of feet and slamming of doors. Or she’d agree to go to a function with someone she liked as a friend, then would want to flake and accept when a hot guy asked her later. Having these battles with her was no fun, especially since her friends pulled these stunts all the time.

      My generation of parents has a lot to answer for.

  • http://ithinkilostgod.wordpress.com/ Butterfly Flower

    I think the majority of guys would prefer the former, but it really is up to the girl in that case to send the IOIs with unmistakeable blinking neon lights. Even then, you might have some guys oblivious, and the girl would have to initiate.

    …but what about all the guys who lack the confidence to initiate? How would a young woman send IOIs that won’t intimidate?

  • detinennui32

    The male IOIs:

    He is alive.
    He is awake.
    He has a respiratory rate, a heartbeat and brain waves.

    Ok, just kidding.

    He returns that full body hug.
    He talks to you for more than 30 seconds.
    He negs you. This is a big IOI. We don’t waste negs on girls we don’t like.
    He is willing to spend a little money on you.
    He asks you for a drink or ice cream date.
    He asks you to go to another area of the venue alone.
    He wants to be alone with you.
    He talks with you about things other than his job or the weather.

  • http://www.rooshv.com Roosh

    The only time playing hard to get works is when you’re an amazing woman. If during the extra time it took to get you into bed I became aware of your many positive qualities, then it was a good move that ensures I will stick around after sex. The problem is the girls who use this move are LESS likely to be amazing. In fact, playing hard to get is all they have in terms of value, and they know it.

    My friend recently wrote about this, explaining how those that delay sex are often more worse in bed:

    http://vksempireofdirt.com/?p=1481

    After you sleep with these girls, you realize the emperor has no clothes and dump her anyway. There is no substitute for real value. Even game for guys will have less effectiveness if there is not an interesting man behind the lines and moves.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I feel like a restauranteur who has just seen a celebrity waltz in. I know it’s not your first comment, but welcome to Roosh. You’ve got quite a few fans who are regulars here, and I’ve no doubt you can provide some valuable insights to the women as well.

  • detinennui32

    I forgot one.

    He uses light touching or kino. If he isn’t interested he will do whatever he can to get as far away from you as he can.

  • http://www.nomadicneill.com NomadicNeill

    After the approach, nearly every girl would further play hard to get by being very flakey on dates. This is the pet peeve of every guy and what has led to the death of dating, replaced by “hanging out”. If you girls want a guy to take you out on dates, you need to communicate very clearly to him that you’re not that type of girl i.e not the majority. Because nearly every guy has been burnt on that many times, or at least having had to deal with the anxiety over something as basic as agreeing to spend some time one on one with each other and sticking to that deal.”

    Completely agree. When you get wishy washy commitments, flakes etc. it’s not long before you start playing the numbers game (meeting as many women as you can, taking lots of numbers and from there organising to meet up).

    This is all to the advantage of men, because it puts us in a good mindset.

    But if you are woman and you want to stand out then keep your resistance until later in the game.

    So if he suggests a date / meetup whatever, and you like him but can’t do that particular day you must suggest an alternate date so that he knows that you are interested.

    I’m usually quite persistent but I can understand how many guys get disheartened quickly and move on.

    Keep the ‘playing hard to get’ for after the point where you actually hang out on a semi-regular basis, not before when he has invested little time or effort and will seek out other options (or already has plenty of options on the go).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Keep the ‘playing hard to get’ for after the point where you actually hang out on a semi-regular basis, not before when he has invested little time or effort and will seek out other options (or already has plenty of options on the go).

      What is the value in doing that later in the relationship? Are you saying to use it as a form of ultimatum, or to get the upper hand?

  • Wudang

    Hitori a famous female poster on fastseduction.com wrote that most guys, because they aren`t getting much are seeking tension release sexually. They have already built up sexual tension by going for long stretches without getting any. Players on the other hand seek someone who can create tension for them because they already have lots of sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang
      That’s a very interesting idea. That would explain the occasional player who sticks around long enough to convince the girl he’s serious. He may originally be really into it, even. Sometimes girls nail these guys down to be official, but I think most of them wind up cheating. And some just walk away when the itch for variety strikes. All in all a bad bet for a woman looking for something real.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    This topic is important to me because I have daughters, and their future happiness relates correspondingly to the caliber of men they attract into their lives. When my oldest daughter was fourteen, I sat her down and read her the rules of the road:

    1) Boys want to have sex with you. Actually, most of them want to have sex. With you or with someone else. Their interest in you is related to how attracted they are to you coupled with how much of a chance they think they have with you.

    Your job is to find a boy who wants to have sex with YOU (preferably when you’re a lot older).

    2) A boy who is interested in you will let you know. Boys (and men) are not as complicated as women in this regard. If you have to wonder if he likes you, he doesn’t.

    3) Like a boy because YOU like him, not because he’s the popular flavor this month. You will be surprised how many boys will appreciate that. They aren’t used to being noticed for themselves.

    4) You have to choose from among the boys who express interest in you. You do not get to choose from among those who don’t.

    5) You already have girl game. Its called butt, boobs, hair and legs [Insert Susan's one-and-a-half rule here]. You don’t need anything else. Really. Any guy who isn’t responding to your BBH&L has access to better BBH&L elsewhere. Sorry, life isn’t fair. See rule #4.

    6) No one girl attracts all the guys. It only looks like it because most girls only see half the guys, if that many, in any social situation. Believe me. there are a lot of guys actively trying to get your attention. Yes, right now. In general, men are more idiosyncratic in their preferences that women are, so use that to your advantage.

    7) Don’t waste the pretty. The world right now does not reward smart, modest young women of good character and average looks. It rewards sluts and chest-beating thugs, but only briefly. Don’t ever become someone’s back up plan, someone’s not-quite-girlfriend, someone’s backdoor girl, someone’s plan ‘B’.

    And for the sake of God’s love:

    8) If you like a boy, let him know.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      +!00 to Mule. Awesome list, I’m going to share it in a post.

      I wish more dads did this with their daughters. One study showed that daughters really want this kind of coaching from their fathers, but they don’t often get it. Perhaps it’s awkward? Or men typically leave these lessons to the mom? My husband never formally sat my daughter down, but he can always be counted on for an honest opinion, and she’ll sometimes ask him for his take on a situation.

  • Tasmin

    I think playing hard-to-get, from either men or women, is game playing by definition and should be approached with caution. For all of the talk about playing games and the general disdain from women (and some men) regarding the growing popularity of Game from men in the SMP, it is interesting to see how game(s) continue to be supported as a favorable means over more direct and honest approaches. I don’t deny biology, evo psy, etc. and how those things play out in current social environments, but I think game-playing is similar to other bio-based drives that we must learn to evolve beyond if we wish to develop meaningful relationships. That said, I also feel there are a couple of important factors that should be considered in the discussion relating to how certain strategies may or may not produce the desired positive outcomes. First, hard to get may have a some relevancy in the introductory phase, that is the initial meeting(s), but I think that once two people agree to spend time together, be it an actual date or some other form of get-to-know, there is very little room for evasive, coy, hard-to-get game playing. It is in this phase where most of the damage happens in terms of flakiness, mixed messages, gaming, hedging, etc. Second, venue is a factor. It is always sound advice to continually seek out and spend time in venues that support common interests and qualities of those we seek, but the reality is that, particularly for younger adults, bars and clubs are the default venues. As such, women should be aware that these venues are the proving grounds for players and players-n-training yet they are also home to a large number of men who just want to meet a woman. There are two distinct environments at work within these venues and women should be aware of which environment they wish to participate. E.g. if you spend time in bars/clubs, respond only to men who approach you, and need, desire, and/or find attractive the explicit or projected traits of bravery, aggression (“a man is not afraid to go get what he wants”), risk-taking, or confidence, then you are squarely in the Alpha-Player camp and you will reap what you sow.

    If, however, you spend time in bars/clubs, but are looking for more than a ONS, then whatever game you employ, be it hard-to-get or otherwise, should be directed squarely at the population of men who do not “feel at home” in a bar/club and who under most conditions will not approach you without strong indications of interest – and even then may not. Accordingly, women would benefit from less hard-to-get practices and more proactive measures, including those which indicate a disinterest or separation from the alpha-player camp. I think a women who can couple the art of indicating selective interest while separating herself from the players and their gravity within the bar/club venue is substantially more attractive to me – and will be much more successful in her pursuit. Without both indication of interest in me and indication of disinterest in the player crowd, I’m not going to be interested enough to initiate anything. And to my point of the power of both, if a women indicates interest in me, but appears to be operating from within the player camp, I’m probably still not going to approach or respond positively. For me, if a woman seems to be in a posse of player groupies or indicates interest in multiple men in a bar setting, this is a far more important indicator of being easy or ONS prone or otherwise not a match than whether or not a women approaches me directly.

    Which goes back to venue and phase. Bars are tough venues because you have to work harder: shut off part of the market and engage in the other, but as hard as that sounds, women still have the advantage in this venue because they will get approached and they have the option of approaching. The point being, if you chose these venues, but you don’t want a player or a ONS, then be prepared to work harder.

    And as far as women approaching in general, I think this practice needs to be encouraged. The majority of the negative attitudes/reactions relating to the female approach are probably rooted in other behaviors like being intoxicated, style, qualities indicated by friends/groups, and factors such as venue as opposed to some notion of “the chase”. I have zero interest in women who “can’t find a nice guy” while charging the bar scene, getting all jacked-up on Jager shots they flirted out of some player. So if a women seems to operate outside of the herd-alpha-groupie space and actually comes up to me to chat, she has 100% of my attention. Not only do I think that it is hot, I have never felt the air of “the chase” balloon deflate because a woman initiated, quite the opposite – because I have some reason to believe that she is at the very least physically attracted to me, which is the primary barrier to this whole endeavor, I will probably come across as more relaxed and confident, which she will probably find attractive. I’d take that situation – even with the potential for heightened sexual tension as one of the posters suggested – over the alternative: latent and pervasive sexual tension that spills all over the bar, in addition to ambiguity of attraction. And if she is just being friendly, so be it, I’d rather have a decent 5 minute conversation with a women in which mutual physical attraction is not present, than a stumbling 20-minute conversation with an attractive women who thinks I am “cute” while alternating between checking her phone and looking over my shoulder trying to get the attention of the tall guy with the clever hat. As a side note, this whole business of fondling phones in the company of others needs to stop. Seriously. Total turn-off.

  • http://xxcollegechronicles.wordpress.com/ ResrieG

    I personally feel like leading a guy into approaching [like your example - the woman who sent the email with her # pretending it was for someone else] is manipulative.

    I don’t think it’s manipulative so much as strategic. The difference between the two may be labeled as semantics, but I think manipulative implies bad intentions while strategic doesn’t necessarily mean this. Being strategic worked well for me when I started sitting near a cute guy in my lecture (rare for a science class) and we ended up talking because we frequently did group work with the people sitting around us. I never initiated too much conversation, but we flirted a lot, and by the end of the quarter he admitted that he had a huge crush on me and it had taken a long time for him to work up courage to talk to me. It was perfect, because both of us felt like we got the person we chose. Things ended up not working out in the end, but that’s a different story.

  • http://www.nomadicneill.com NomadicNeill

    @Susan

    I meant that a woman should wait before asking a guy to put in effort in order to move things along.

    Not many will stick around if he’s required to do heavy lifting from the start (calling all the time, trying to arrange dates etc.) with little positive feedback. Why spend time chasing a girl just to get a single date / get-together when you can go out and find ten others that aren’t going flake and be wishy-washy just to play a power game?

    Women can get him to invest more time and effort later (doing fun stuff with you). But don’t let it slip into a situation where she is demanding gifts and expensive dates in exchange for physical contact and sex. That’s a sure way to end up with losers with low self-esteem that feel they need to buy a girls affection.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . But don’t let it slip into a situation where she is demanding gifts and expensive dates in exchange for physical contact and sex. That’s a sure way to end up with losers with low self-esteem that feel they need to buy a girls affection.

      Not to mention the fact that it makes her a prostitute.

  • Stingray

    Susan,

    I would be very interested in also seeing a post for mothers teaching their sons. He will pick up a whole lot from my husband who is a natural, but he spends 90% of his time with me. He will be four in a week and I don’t want to teach him anything that might hinder any natural alpha he already has. (I don’t mean deliberately teaching him to be a nice guy. That stuff I know. I am more worried about punishing him for sassing me and that type of thing. He needs to learn to respect his mother yet keep that natural frame. I worry about taking that from him.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray

      I would be very interested in also seeing a post for mothers teaching their sons.

      I’ll be happy to give that some thought. To be honest, I’m not sure I did a great job on that front. I didn’t betatize my son, but he has a lot of natural beta and I know I rewarded those traits while he was growing up.

      Perhaps other mothers can weigh in with some suggestions here.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    MuleChewingBriars I LOVE your list: smart, strategic and practical. Your daughter(s) are very fortunate!

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    get this for your kids (and yourself)
    http://www.amazon.com/Yes-Can-Say-No-Assertiveness/dp/0877958289

    if learned early in life it can be life changer

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yohami
      That books looks awesome – giving kids the tools to withstand peer pressure, including premature sexual experimentation, drugs, etc.

  • Jennifer

    Tasmin, you are AWESOME! Stephenie, great points!

    “Your job is to find a boy who wants to have sex with YOU (preferably when you’re a lot older)”

    Our job is to find a guy who will do much more than that. And indeed don’t waste the pretty, but use the more important modesty and intelligence as well. Once in relationships, more is needed than looks.

    Stingray, if you don’t properly discipline a son, he’ll grow up to be the kind of alpha Susan warns women to avoid. Seriously, you shouldn’t be worried about disciplining him, and some guys are more naturally alpha than others; what they need are certain alpha traits, not to all be leaders of the group (which is impossible anyway). He’s only four, and any frame he has should be tempered with obedience to his parents; strong men know to obey bosses, managers, and other such leaders at work, and respect for their mothers is what shapes many successful men to be good husbands. He may not need to be a “nice” guy, but a respectful one is something different.

  • Jennifer

    Good Lord Mule, I thought you were a woman. Your blog looks cool, but I’d far prefer for a mother to give her daughters such a list; ech.

  • Wudang

    A while ago I met a couple of girls, a 9 and a 4, that told me they had read and was using the guidelines in the book “the Rules” and that it worked like magic. The guys got really into them and did everything they wanted. While saying this they had the most stuck up, narcisistic, entitled look a woman could have. The very definition of what a guy does not want. Apparently they thought I would be impressed by how popular they were and how amazing they had to be because they could control guys this way. In reality I just lost interest in the 9 for having displayed an ugly personality and was filled with seething contempt for the 4 for trying to subcomunicate to me with her stuck up attitude and supposed seductive powers that she was above me me when I would not have slept with her had I gotten paid for it. I then told them that what they did was just dumb because even though this worked in attracting guys attracting them in this way and getting this type of control eliminated most or all attraction they had for these guys so any girl who played the game this way would always loose. Both got this shocked and logic processing uncomfortable look as they apparently instantly realized this was true. Then the taxi stopped, we got out and into a club to meet some friends of mine and their betaized suitors and they seemed to go back into their narcistic queenlike attitudes and treating the guys they were dating, which met us there, as shit. A friend of mine that also tried out the tips from the rules said it worked but found that her attraction always disapeared when she succeeded in using it on a guy so she stopped. THe rules should just be used bu goldiggers and female secret agents trying to get information out of powerful men they seduce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang
      When I heard that one of the authors of the Rules got divorced, I figured she didn’t know what she was talking about.

  • Gwen

    Sounds like manipulation and narcissism are poison for both sexes.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    You already have girl game. Its called butt, boobs, hair and legs [Insert Susan's one-and-a-half rule here].

    What’s Susan’s one-and-a-half rule? I tried looking for it but can’t find it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bellita

      What’s Susan’s one-and-a-half rule? I tried looking for it but can’t find it.

      It’s actually the 1 in 3 Rule. It says then when you go out, you may dress to emphasize your butt, boobs or legs, but never more than one at a time. For example: Tight jeans? Wear a high necked shirt. Showing a bit of cleavage? Wear pants or a skirt that are not skin tight. If you want to show off your legs, keep the top unstructured. In this way you can look and feel sexy without looking cheap. And of course, if you’re like most people, you’ll feel better about one aspect of your body. So play it up by drawing the focus to that.

  • Stingray

    Jennifer,

    Discipline is not a problem for me. I actually worry about over discipline. I had three kids in three years and I homeschool them. In order to teach it seems I sometimes over do it to keep things quiet enough for them to learn. And as things are ALWAYS insane with three small children, I don’t want to completely discipline out his (or the girls) spunk in the process. Where to draw the line is where I struggle.

  • Jennifer

    @Stingray

    Ah, I see. Well, I’m no authority on kids, but I have heard many homeschooling moms talk about nature projects they do outside and how boys flourish there. You might like a book called, “Praise her in the Gates” by Nancy Wilson, who also had two girls and a boy she homeschooled; I don’t like all of her really conservative religious beliefs, but she offers a lot about discipline in that book, for boys and girls, and believes in raising sons to be leaders. There’s also a lady I know who blogs and is homeschooling nine children, three of which are boys (the youngest a baby) if you’d like to ask her opinion: http://www.generationcedar.com

  • Stingray

    Susan,

    Two books that we got that I think are amazing (though my son is not quite old enough for them yet) are The American Boys Handy Book by D.C. Beard and The Dangerous Book for Boys by Conn Iggulden. If you do decide to do a post on boys and mothers I don’t know how you might use them, but they are something we plan to utilize and you might like them.

    Jennifer,

    Thank you for the references. I will look into them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray
      I absolutely love those books for boys! They’re old fashioned. Speaking of which, there’s a great site called artofmanliness.com which is about traditional manliness. It’s excellent and has gotten extremely popular – it’s a very high traffic site. You might find some things of interest there.

  • Jennifer

    No problem. I look forward to looking into “The Dangerous Book for Boys”, just for myself right now! :P When my sons come, I’ll share it.

  • Dogsquat

    Susan said:

    “To be honest, I’m not sure I did a great job on that front. I didn’t betatize my son, but he has a lot of natural beta and I know I rewarded those traits while he was growing up. ”

    Bah. Don’t beat yourself up.

    My mom did the same thing and I turned out alright. It’s more important to know your family has your back and loves you than it is to be taught PUA stuff. Another gift you’ve given that he might not realize yet is being an example in a monogamous, stable marriage. He’ll learn the alpha crap from his own achievements, the net, or his buddies. Not really your job to teach him.

    Being a good mom has to be the world’s worst job. Good moms try and be the never-ending fountain of everything for their kids. When they inevitably fail at that impossible task, they beat themselves up for failing.

    I saw a mom burst into tears after waiting 2 days to get an xray on an otherwise happy, healthy kid who hurt his foot. When it turned out the foot was slightly broken, the mom felt horrible for waiting.

    I do this stuff for a living and I thought the kid was fine. Hell, even the doc (with 12 years of intense schooling and 20 years of doing exactly this kind of work for 50 hours a week) didn’t know if the foot was broken until the xrays were done.

    The good mom, though, she expects to know right away, and beats herself up for not knowing.

    Hell, if I ever have a kid, that little shit will be lucky if I remember I placed him on a nearby windswept crag 3 days ago so the Gods could test his toughness.

    Bless you, Good Moms. I wish there were more of you out there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dogsquat

      I saw a mom burst into tears after waiting 2 days to get an xray on an otherwise happy, healthy kid who hurt his foot. When it turned out the foot was slightly broken, the mom felt horrible for waiting.

      When my husband was two he poked himself in the eye with a magazine. Worried about the cost of a doctor’s visit, his mother didn’t do anything right away. After a week his eye was badly infected, with scar tissue over the cornea. He’s been legally blind in that eye ever since. (You’d never know to look at him.) To this day, his mother frets about it and feels guilty. It’s been 55 years.

      Your sentiment about moms reminds me of this poem, a favorite of mine:

      The Lanyard – Billy Collins

      The other day I was ricocheting slowly
      off the blue walls of this room,
      moving as if underwater from typewriter to piano,
      from bookshelf to an envelope lying on the floor,
      when I found myself in the L section of the dictionary
      where my eyes fell upon the word lanyard.

      No cookie nibbled by a French novelist
      could send one into the past more suddenly—
      a past where I sat at a workbench at a camp
      by a deep Adirondack lake
      learning how to braid long thin plastic strips
      into a lanyard, a gift for my mother.

      I had never seen anyone use a lanyard
      or wear one, if that’s what you did with them,
      but that did not keep me from crossing
      strand over strand again and again
      until I had made a boxy
      red and white lanyard for my mother.

      She gave me life and milk from her breasts,
      and I gave her a lanyard.
      She nursed me in many a sick room,
      lifted spoons of medicine to my lips,
      laid cold face-cloths on my forehead,
      and then led me out into the airy light

      and taught me to walk and swim,
      and I, in turn, presented her with a lanyard.
      Here are thousands of meals, she said,
      and here is clothing and a good education.
      And here is your lanyard, I replied,
      which I made with a little help from a counselor.

      Here is a breathing body and a beating heart,
      strong legs, bones and teeth,
      and two clear eyes to read the world, she whispered,
      and here, I said, is the lanyard I made at camp.
      And here, I wish to say to her now,
      is a smaller gift—not the worn truth

      that you can never repay your mother,
      but the rueful admission that when she took
      the two-tone lanyard from my hand,
      I was as sure as a boy could be
      that this useless, worthless thing I wove
      out of boredom would be enough to make us even.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    A man who is tuned into body language can tell when a girl is just playing hard to get but really wants him bad. I encountered that situation many times in my player days and it never ended well for the woman.

    The girl basically outs herself as a liar. Verbally, she’s saying one thing but her body language isn’t congruent with her words. So I’d double down, get the notch and maybe have sex with her a few times, then I’d move along.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Susan
    Re: The Rules

    I know a woman (that other relationship blogger I once mentioned) who still recommends The Rules to her readers. She thinks the only miscalculation the authors made was publishing the book while their husbands were still alive–and still able to feel humiliated. When I read that on her blog, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    Re: The 1 in 3 Rule

    Thanks! That makes sense. :)

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Susan wrote:

    We only have privileged access to our own thoughts and feelings don’t we?

    Saywhaat wrote:

    If an LTR is what you’re looking for, the bars and clubs are not a good place to find that.

    If you’re just going for a drink with friends, then fair enough. But it would be a good working assumption that the guys who are not with their wives or girlfriends would like to get laid that night.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    EDIT: I really screwed up the HTML tags on the last comment. I left out Susan’s actual words.

    “For the purposes of this article, playing hard to get means making men jump through hoops for the privilege of spending time with you or getting to know you. It does not mean delaying sex until emotional intimacy is established, which is always sound strategy.”

  • rick

    Women are attracted to hard to get men.

    Men are attracted to selective women that are into them.

    Social proof/preselection means VERY LITTLE to most men. In fact, the idea of a cute girl that everyone else is ignoring is a guy’s ultimate fantasy.

    We don’t care if no other guy wants her. In fact, it would be a plus, as long as we like her.

  • http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/ Bb

    “Good Lord Mule, I thought you were a woman. Your blog looks cool, but I’d far prefer for a mother to give her daughters such a list; ech.”

    @Jennifer, why do you prefer this advice coming from a mother? What advice would you want from a father?

  • Jennifer

    Bb, I think any advice directly involving sex talk should come from the mom. At least when it’s that direct; fathers need to advise what guys to avoid, but I wouldn’t want my dad discussing what parts of my body attract boys (like I don’t know by 14.)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Roosh,

    My friend recently wrote about this, explaining how those that delay sex are often more worse in bed

    Isn’t that common sense though? Girls who wait will have less sex with less people, so the lack of experience would likely make them less skilled on a mattress.

    But if you’re looking for something to last past that initial passion, you’re gonna want something more than an acrobat in the sack anyway, no? And I say this as someone strictly looking for acrobats….

  • Esau

    Butterfly Flower: “…but what about all the guys who lack the confidence to initiate? How would a young woman send IOIs that won’t intimidate?”

    You seem bright enough; just grab the thread and trace it back. Lack of confidence comes from fear of consequences. If you can identify/imagine the negative consequences that the guys your thinking of want to avoid (and if you can’t, then try harder), then you, or anyone, can shape their IOI’s to send the message that those bad consequences won’t likely happen. Easy peasy. See the remark of 108spirits above:

    If you girls want a guy to take you out on dates, you need to communicate very clearly to him that you’re not that type of girl i.e not the majority.

    If you want different results from what most girls are getting, ie more male interest and approaches, then it’s up to you to demonstrate that you’re not like all the rest.

    Note also, that one should not attribute to lack of confidence or intimidation what is more easily explained as simple cost-benefit judgement.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    “Speaking of which, there’s a great site called artofmanliness.com which is about traditional manliness. It’s excellent and has gotten extremely popular – it’s a very high traffic site. You might find some things of interest there.”

    That’s a good blog. The guy published a book with his wife, also. The only think that irks me about him is that he persists in using seriously out-moded expressions coined by Teddy Roosevelt. Bizarre. Otherwise, a good site that delves pretty deeply into traditional views of masculinity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      The only think that irks me about him is that he persists in using seriously out-moded expressions coined by Teddy Roosevelt.

      I’ve actually wondered how long they can keep that up. I mean, they run posts like how to whittle a stick and how to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together. There’s a novelty element, it’s wonderfully retro. But not all of it seems relevant to life today. Then again, they get a lot more hits than I do. And people have asked me how on earth I could have written more than 500 posts on the subject of hooking up. I have no idea!

  • Jennifer

    “The only think that irks me about him is that he persists in using seriously out-moded expressions coined by Teddy Roosevelt”

    LOL Some of those guys are actually very sentimental, often in a good way.

    If you don’t want over-inflated manhood, stear clear of the Vision Forum. The head guy never shuts up about “real” manhood, yet used the villain from “Chitty Chitty Bang Bang” to describe a feminist he hated; lol!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    BF,

    I don’t understand why so many of my friends are convinced guys want them to play games.

    I just walked up to my boyfriend and, well… passionately kissed him [- we had UST; I decided to resolve it :)]

    Honestly, I don’t think that people really believe that members of the opposite sex want them to play games. I think people are afraid of rejection. It’s safer to throw hints and innuendos and see if you can get a reaction than to just walk up to someone and tell them what you think. IDK. Maybe I’m just seeing it from a guy’s POV, a guy who used to rely heavily on hints and very rarely approached things directly.

    I attribute most of my recent success to the fact that I’ve approached more women this summer than I ever have in my life prior to this summer. Probably I’m not every girls first choice, but the guy who approaches is the easy choice.

    That said, I can totally see the other side, the people who are afraid to just plant one on someone they’ve been flirting with or won’t just tell someone how they feel or what they want. It takes major balls.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jennifer,

    LOL Some of those guys are actually very sentimental, often in a good way.

    I just feel like it’s a bit disingenuous. I’m assuming the guy Brett Mckay isn’t some 100+ yr old guy who reached his prime in the first decade of the last century. You can learn from the past, but you can’t turn back the clock. By adopting the mannerisms and language of a bygone era, that’s what it seems like he’s trying to do.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    There’s a post on there about how to make your own “manly” bar of soap… I mean, really? That’s one step away from making your own manly scented candles. I shouldn’t make fun though. He’s doing well for himself and he’s got some good posts.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also,

    You’ve defined “hooking up” so broadly that you can encompass a lot under its umbrella. The food stuff is a bit of a stretch in terms of relevance, but it seems to be doing well. And it looks good, though it usually just serves to make me hungry. The only things I know how to make on the stove are eggs, grilled cheese, and pasta. I need a surrogate mom or a friend with benefits that can cook.

  • Jennifer

    “There’s a post on there about how to make your own “manly” bar of soap… I mean, really? That’s one step away from making your own manly scented candles. I shouldn’t make fun though”

    But that was damn funny! I lol’d. That’s what I mean about stressing manhood too much, though.

    Stingray’s recommendation of “Dangerous Book for Boys” was great, as that book has perfect balance of modern and golden activites for boys.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Stingray’s recommendation of “Dangerous Book for Boys” was great, as that book has perfect balance of modern and golden activites for boys.

    Yea, i saw that. I’ll keep that in mind in case I ever change my mind and decide to be fruitful and multiply.

  • Jennifer

    If you’re a Christian, “Created for Work” and “Do Hard Things” are awesome too.

  • SayWhaat

    We’ve had a few less than friendly words over the past few days.
    Howsabout we hug it out?

    I don’t know what you’re talking about, Dogsquat, I’m always entertained by our conversations. But I’ll shake your hand, if you want to make peace. :P

  • SayWhaat

    @ Johnny Milfquest:

    You misattributed that quote to me, I did not say that.

  • SayWhaat

    Isn’t that common sense though? Girls who wait will have less sex with less people, so the lack of experience would likely make them less skilled on a mattress.

    You know, this comment makes sense, but it also kind of bothers me that people automatically assume that less-experienced girls will be less-skilled. I think someone else said on a previous thread that sexual lionesses are born, not made. You’d never know that I was a virgin from the way I carry myself (I tear a hole in dance floors and another guy once said I oozed sexual appeal) but it annoys me that people automatically assume that less experience = complete innocence and therefore terrible in bed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      it annoys me that people automatically assume that less experience = complete innocence and therefore terrible in bed.

      I’d like to make a couple of points about experience and being good in bed.

      1. My first sexual partner was terrible. Sex was a silent affair in missionary position with closed-mouth kissing. As a result I was terrible. I did little but lie there and think of England.

      2. My second sexual partner was amazing. He rocked my world the first time. The first few times I was enthusiastic and eager but didn’t know what the heck I was doing. Inside of a month I was a total wildcat in bed.

      This is not rocket science, people, and a woman’s skill in the sack may depend a great deal on her partner. I’ll also say, for the record, that I’ve both tried and heard reports of young women trying the kinds of tricks the Cosmo specializes in, e.g. hitting the underside with a tongue flick in just the right spot, gently tugging his balls as he comes. It’s all complete nonsense. Re the latter suggestion a young woman told me her boyfriend said, “Do. not. ever. do. that. again.”

  • Jennifer

    Amen, Stephenie! You know, I recall on a conservative site, I mentioned that women who don’t like sex have no business getting married (meaning Christian virgins too). Another woman said this was “cruel”, because how could virgins know? I wanted to smack her a little bit; how do we know? Our sex drives! Wake up lady, virgins are not asexual.

  • Dogsquat

    Jeez, Susan.

    The last couple lines of that poem are very unsettling to me.

    I wish I knew why.

    That is a great piece of art, and I thank you for sharing it with me.

  • Dogsquat

    Jesus said:

    “Isn’t that common sense though? Girls who wait will have less sex with less people, so the lack of experience would likely make them less skilled on a mattress.”

    This comment might bite me in the ass later, but:

    In my experience, your statement has not proven correct.

    When I think back about the sex I’ve found the most pleasurable, the most gut-wrenching and powerful – three girls come to mind.

    Two of the three were virgins before me. All of them were really, really good at sex though. The only thing they have in common is that they all dance very well, and give great massages.

    I’ve said it before here, and I’m sure I’ll say it again:

    Sensuality and sexual prowess are not tied to partner count. A giving and sensual girl who loves you will curl your toes once she figures out what you like.

  • Dogsquat

    @SayWhaat:

    Well, I was fairly blunt with you over on Doc Danny’s blog. Some gals get offended by that sort of thing….but I see you are better than that.

    I am a man of peace – at peace with you, the Universe, and everything except for rush hour traffic and carnies.

    Type shake again, but do it real slow this time.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Jesus,

    “The only things I know how to make on the stove are eggs, grilled cheese, and pasta. I need a surrogate mom or a friend with benefits that can cook.”

    Just learn it yourself. If you put as much effort into cooking as you do into your game, you’ll be a decently accomplished cook in six months. Pick five entrees and five sides and cook each three or four times until you get a handle on how to do it and how to modify it for variety.

    One of my breakthroughs was dedicating myself to cooking at least one meal at home for three weeks. I had to plan the menu and make time to buy the foodstuffs. I also lost about five pounds.

  • http://kaneadvice.wordpress.com Kane

    Another good reason not to play hard to get.

    A man who is unsure if a girl will bang him is likely to divide his efforts i.e. he’ll actively start looking for other girls to have sex with. Back in my player days, I can recall nights that I ended up banging girl B only because girl A played non-committal about getting together. Of course girl A would eventually show up or say she wanted to meet, but by that time I was already with girl B.

  • jess

    i have never understood the whole ‘hard to get’ thing- by either gender
    .
    life is way too short to be fannying around
    .
    if you like someone, let them know it, make your intentions clear.
    .
    i see no merit in playing games, mucking around with peoples emotions or silly tactics.
    .
    if ever i sensed a guy was doing that with me i dropped them like a hot stone- it was pretty rare though i think in my personal experience

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Stephenie

    how about a section for books, to have them all together so it doesn’t bet buried in a post?

    Yeah, someone suggested a “booking up smart” section last week. Not a bad idea. I could have a list of resources and also do occasional reviews.

    Speaking of old-fashioned books, I went online and found a copy of my Girl Scout Junior Handbook, circa 1963. I used to escape into that book for hours as a kid. As I looked through it again, seeing the illustrations made memories come rushing back in a flood.

  • Stingray

    Susan,

    That American Boys Handy Book was written by the co-founder of the Boys Scouts and was first published in 1882. I was glancing through it yesterday and it is awesome, but sadly I think a good deal of it today may even be illegal. For example, I was reading briefly about how to find and capture crows, hummingbirds, and hawks for bays to tame and then use for companionship and hunting. Somehow, I think this might be frowned upon today. I can’t wait to try some of these when my son gets older. (How to camp without a tent, making soap bubble pipes, making a spring shotgun, how to make boats!) I can’t wait and I know the girls will love it all, too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Stingray
      One year during a beach vacation my son, who was about 8 at the time, decided to built a raft using that book. He and a friend worked on it for days. Of course, in the end it didn’t float, but that was beside the point. They had the most memorable time working on that together. They pulled it back onto the beach and proceeded to sit on it for the rest of the vacation.

  • Stingray

    I sometimes wonder if Cosmo puts misinformation out there intentionally. Either that or the women who write those pieces had ONE experience with a guy who liked something and automatically assumed all would. Therefore, hurting countless guys out there with their crap.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Therefore, hurting countless guys out there with their crap.

      Not to mention making women feel insecure, like they need a PhD in oral sex before they can be with a real guy.

  • Jennifer

    I love the Girl Scout book types, and wish I could find my own; a lot more great info than even just fashioning nature stuff.

  • Jennifer

    Jess, totally agree.

  • Jennifer

    I’d say in general that “playing” is a losing strategy.

  • Isabel

    @ Stingray

    It’s shamelessly deliberate. Distributing bad advice guarantees that they will always have an audience of jaded, young women in need of relationship guidance. Cosmo is basically how to dress, act, talk and walk sexy to ensure that you get to have sex with Alphas… followed by break-up advice and makeover tips for when the Alphas dump you. Naturally.

    I think its main target audience is 24-35 year olds really. It’s outdated in the sense that it still maintains that women playing hard to get and putting out aggressively will see results.

    Marie Claire and Elle are nice, though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Isabel

      Marie Claire and Elle are nice, though.

      Marie Claire in particular is very sensible about sex and relationships. Their bloggers are generally fairly conservative as opposed to sex positive – very much in line with my own views. Rich Santos has a quirky charm, and he is not the least bit alpha.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Isabel
    It’s shamelessly deliberate. Distributing bad advice guarantees that they will always have an audience of jaded, young women in need of relationship guidance. Cosmo is basically how to dress, act, talk and walk sexy to ensure that you get to have sex with Alphas… followed by break-up advice and makeover tips for when the Alphas dump you. Naturally.

    Wow. I never thought of it that way, but it rings so true!

    Cosmo isn’t for women who have it all together . . . because if more women had it all together, they’d lose half their reason for existing and therefore half their target audience!

  • Jennifer

    Pretty compelling, Isabel. Those things in general thrive on misguiding women; so does any noticeably post-sex revolution product.

  • Jennifer

    Bellita, I love what I’ve seen of your blog!

  • imnobody

    I think this really depends on the IOIs you’re getting. The risk of rejection is high. When I first told my husband I liked him, I already knew he wasn’t very interested. I just wanted to get it off my chest. I figured it was obvious, but he was not expecting it at all, and eventually it made a big difference.
    .
    As I have told before in this site, a similar case happened to my younger sister. She loved a good friend in silence. I told her: “Tell him. Tell that you love him”. When the guy received the news, he was amazed. He haven’t imagined this and he only saw her “as a friend”. My sister was devastated and I felt guilty for my advice.
    .
    But, after some months, they became a couple and they have been together for the last six or seven years (if I don’t count wrongly). If my sister wouldn’t have risked, she might be alone now (he is her first and only boyfriend: she is very shy). Who does not risk, does not win.
    .
    So yes, I don’t feel guilty about my advice :-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @imnobody
      I love that story about your sister. I would argue that she and I both did a good and healthy thing. Loving someone should never be a cause of shame, even if it is not requited. After I told my husband that, I felt that a weight had been lifted even though he didn’t respond the way I wanted. By the time he came around later, we were on even footing.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    Saywhaat wrote:

    “@Johnny Milfquest: You misattributed that quote to me, I did not say that.”

    As I pointed out in the *very next comment*, I totally screwed up the the HTML tags.

    My comments directed at Susan and yourself got quoted instead. I apologise.

    Susan, how about bringing the buttons back? Typing in the HTML by hand is a giant pain in the backside.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, how about bringing the buttons back? Typing in the HTML by hand is a giant pain in the backside.

      Here’s the problem. When I juice up the comment section with bells and whistles, it eats up a lot of CPU. So much that my host server company has threatened to suspend me. Instead I ‘m working on migrating to a new theme which hopefully will perform better with plugins.

  • Esau

    Jennifer says:
    September 17, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    Bellita, I love what I’ve seen of your blog!

    Yeah, there’s excellent stuff there, especially for such a new effort. But, why did you have to let the secret out? Now Bellita’s will be “discovered” like a trendy restaurant and everyone will want to get a table!

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    Jennifer and Esau:

    Thank you for your kind words about my blog! I hope that my writing continues to live up to your expectations. :)

  • Jennifer

    You’re welcome Bellita :)

    Imnobody, that’s a lovely story! :)

  • Jennifer

    Susan, you and your hubby’s story is lovely and romantic :) (Okay, I’ll quit the smilies now).

  • tito

    @Tiger4Christ

    “David X says to treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore. I’ve been surprised how many nice seeming women responded badly when treated like ladies.”

    how true this is. i’ve very nice to women of easy virtue and they shockingly acted more ladylike and nice….and then proceeded to put out without acting like they were doing me the biggest favor known to man.

  • Jennifer

    It’s nice to treat a whore like a lady, but guys have no business treating a lady like trash.

  • Jennifer

    “I triggered submerged guilt or otherwise contradicted their internal self image.”

    Ah, that explains it.

    “and then proceeded to put out without acting like they were doing me the biggest favor known to man”

    I hope that’s not why you were nice to them. Such treatment may fool a woman into thinking a guy thinks of her with integrity.

    “So I’d double down, get the notch and maybe have sex with her a few times, then I’d move along”

    So you’d punish her for being no more dishonest than game sometimes advises men to be? You’ve never taught men to be dishonest by sending mixed signals, like Roissy? If not, good for you. But that’s still a sh*tty way to treat a woman who was probably just doing what she thought would display value.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jennifer, whores don’t deserve to be treated like ladies. All human beings deserve respect, but I’ll be damned if I’m going out of my way to treat a “whore” like a “lady.”

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    When I first told my husband I liked him, I already knew he wasn’t very interested. I just wanted to get it off my chest. I figured it was obvious, but he was not expecting it at all, and eventually it made a big difference.

    It’s sooo none of my business, but was your initial hook up with your husband (the stand that became more) before you told him how you felt or after you found out he was interested?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      It’s sooo none of my business, but was your initial hook up with your husband (the stand that became more) before you told him how you felt or after you found out he was interested?

      The order was:
      1. ONS
      2. No follow up, so I confess I like him.
      3. He says “Um, I don’t think so.”
      4. Three months elapse.
      5. He comes to visit for a weekend.
      6. Relationship official immediately.

      It’s a weird story, I know. I don’t recommend it as a strategy. However, I do believe that my telling him I liked him was crucial.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    I’ll also say, for the record, that I’ve both tried and heard reports of young women trying the kinds of tricks the Cosmo specializes in, e.g. hitting the underside with a tongue flick in just the right spot, gently tugging his balls as he comes. It’s all complete nonsense. Re the latter suggestion a young woman told me her boyfriend said, “Do. not. ever. do. that. again.”

    Yea, I’d like to go on record as saying that tugging on a guy’s balls just seems like a big no-no. As for the underside, I’m not sure about a flick, but running the tip of one’s tongue along the length of the underside (I’m not privy to a “right spot” on the underside, even as a long-time owner of a penis) is muy agradable; i.e. very nice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As for the underside, I’m not sure about a flick, but running the tip of one’s tongue along the length of the underside (I’m not privy to a “right spot” on the underside, even as a long-time owner of a penis) is muy agradable; i.e. very nice.

      If Cosmo had nothing buy guys writing articles it might be worth something.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Loving someone should never be a cause of shame, even if it is not requited.

    +1. You should, as far as humanly possible, be honest about yourself, especially with the important people in your life. Not just because honesty is the best policy, but because, despite the fear it may inspire in some people (myself included, though much less as I get more accustomed to it) being completely authentic is the only truly healthy way to live.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue, I’m surprised that The Art of Manliness gets more traffic than you do, because I don’t think I’ve come across many blogs that get even close to as many comments as yours does. Granted that many of the comments are from regulars, but still, the fact that you HAVE so many regular commenters and that your posts generate as many reactions as they do…. I would have thought that you had the bigger following.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sue, I’m surprised that The Art of Manliness gets more traffic than you do, because I don’t think I’ve come across many blogs that get even close to as many comments as yours does.

      I don’t know what their traffic is, but I think it’s like 100,000 people a day or something. I get 4,000 or so. I’m not complaining, I am very satisfied with how the blog is doing and growing. I think that HUS does spark more discussion than the average blog, by far. To be fair, Art of Manliness has a forum, and I think that’s pretty active.

  • ExNewYorker

    A lady who consistently chooses men who treat her like trash is probably not really a lady after all…

  • Jennifer

    Ex, damn right-on.

    Jesus, you’re very wise about honesty.

    “All human beings deserve respect, but I’ll be damned if I’m going out of my way to treat a “whore” like a “lady.”

    I don’t blame you. I just said it was nice; you saw how it softened those women. They really crave kindness, like everyone else; my heart hurts for lost men and women.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jennifer,

    Kindness, sure. I don’t go out of my way to be rude to anyone. And of course, if she’s a pretty whore, then I’ll be extra kind.

  • Anonymous

    An interesting thing I noticed while out at clubs or bars is that the least-wanted guys are the ones that will approach you first, I nicely smile and apologize while I turn them down and just hold out a bit, usually the hotter guys come after the third guy I turn down and are very interested. I’ve asked a couple of these guys why they waited so long and they’re excuse is the same they thought I would turn them down! I always end up getting their number and they mine, and they always call! why? bc after turning down the other guys and being interested in him, I tend to keep him for the rest of the night.. a pretty good form of being selective (at least for the night).

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger
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  • Jesus Mahoney

    Thanks Sue… and Badger. It’s an interesting story. What reason did your husband give for not wanting to go a 2nd round until after you moved?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jesus

      What reason did your husband give for not wanting to go a 2nd round until after you moved?

      Here is exactly what he said, “You weren’t exactly behaving like you were looking for a relationship.”

      Ouch. He’d not only noticed me leaving parties with guys, he’d noticed that each of them was foreign. As a beta guy:

      1. he had been attracted but not made a move
      2. he questioned my relationship fitness after seeing me have flings with exotic bad boys.

      What I don’t fully understand is what made him change his mind. I imagine he figured the trip to NYC would be a sexy weekend with no strings, but it was great and we just kept hanging out. The fling didn’t end.

  • collegeboy

    This picture pretty much sums up my perspective as a male, with regard to playing hard to get.

  • collegeboy
  • collegeboy

    You can only push men so far, before it stops working.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    What I don’t fully understand is what made him change his mind. I imagine he figured the trip to NYC would be a sexy weekend with no strings, but it was great and we just kept hanging out. The fling didn’t end.

    I’m not sure. First of all, there were strings. You told him you liked him. After you had sex with him. So I can’t imagine he’d go to spend an entire weekend in NYC without some expectations beyond NSA sex. At the very least, he had to anticipate the possibility that you would grow more attached to him. And unless he was a bit of a douche bag, why would risk the likelihood of you falling for him again if all he wanted was to get his dick wet?

    My guess is that on the one hand he had very strong feelings for you and on the other he had very strong feelings about you sleeping around. As long as you were running in the same crowds with him, it was easy for him to be on the fence about it. But being gone, he had to make a decision: to I obey my attraction or my fear?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Naturally, you know the guy somewhat better than I do…. I’m just speculating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Naturally, you know the guy somewhat better than I do…. I’m just speculating.

      Haha, yeah. What’s perhaps surprising is that after the first little while, we never discussed this again. Not long ago I joked that my husband had not liked me at first, and he denied it saying, “You were gravitating toward all those French guys!”

      Also surprising now that I think about it is that we have never asked each other’s number. I think we’re around the same, and I guess he decided he could live with it. Obvs. We celebrate 27 years on Thursday.

      Keep in mind this was 1981, before AIDS, and while the Sexual Revolution was still being heavily peddled. I’m not sure it would play out the same way today. My guess is that he didn’t like the fact that I’d had ONSs, but felt guilty and un-PC for having those feelings.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also surprising now that I think about it is that we have never asked each other’s number. I think we’re around the same

    Yea, part of the reason I didn’t know my ex’s number was because I wanted to cast a bit of mystery around my own. She’d thought that our numbers were similar, though obviously they weren’t. I’d thought our numbers were similar, but I figured (correctly) that keeping her in the dark about mine would make her think that my number was a lot higher. Of course, my number before her was 1, so it wasn’t difficult coming off as a bit more experienced than that.

  • Jennifer

    A high number would be a turn-off to me.

    Susan, what a great story!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Jennifer,

    What would you consider a “high” number? I was at 1 before I met the woman I got (and un-got) engaged to. I’m at 10 now. Yohami’s at something like 200. High is relative. The majority of women wouldn’t find “one” a turn-on, even if they didn’t think it was a turn-off (though quite a few might find “one” a bit of a tingle-dampener).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Jesus Math:

      Baseline 2 + 8 = 10!!!!!!!

      By my approximation, you’re pulling a new bird every weekend or so. Incredible!

  • Jennifer

    200, wow, that’s revolting.

    Jesus, as a Christian, I’d prefer a very small number. More than that I can tolerate, but would not find attractive. Seriously, the kind of women that find the idea of screwing a penis that’s dipped into God knows how many vaginas attractive is also the type who doesn’t mind assholes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      200, wow, that’s revolting.

      Jennifer, that’s too personal. It’s fine to say you are not looking to be with a man who has been so promiscuous but the truth is that it many women will find it extremely attractive – many more than will appreciate a number of, say, 2. Having said that, women are increasingly put off by extreme promiscuity in males, so Yohami should not share his number unless asked point blank. :-)

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    When asked, I scratch my head and say a million, and I get giggles.

  • Jennifer

    I apologize, Susan (and Yohami if I offended). It’s really the attitude of glorifying promiscuity that I find revolting, esp. since twice recently, I saw two ugly men call Christian women who used to be promiscious “reformed sluts/whores”. The indication was that they were still sluts and whores, and one of these men was a disgusting loose creep himself. When men in the manosphere brag about their conquests, and then shame women who painfully repented of that lifestyle, it’s infuriating. So the casual mention of such a high number of sex partners for a male here was a trigger for me.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    No offense taken

    When men in the manosphere brag about their conquests, and then shame women

    I dont get that either. You cant embrace casual sex and then shame women who embrace casual sex. I guess its about madonna / whore complexes. There must be some projection and degradation going on, fucking women they feel unworthy and feel disgusted about.

    That said, the notch count does mean something different in a man than in a woman. In a man a high count is perceived as success / work / skills, in a woman its perceived as she is easy / doesnt screen properly. But that has been explored already. Animal Planet explores that all the time.

    But if men in the casual sex market shame women in the casual sex market… I dont get it. Why having sex with people you dont like or approve?

  • Jennifer

    Great points, Yohami. Thank you for “getting” it.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    But if men in the casual sex market shame women in the casual sex market… I dont get it.

    Why? It’s simple: Because they can.

    Men that participate in the casual sex market hold the strong hand. The Pimp Hand, if you will.

  • http://www.yohami.com/blog/ YOHAMI

    Jimmy Hendricks,

    Why? It’s simple: Because they can.

    Yeah, but why do they want to do that? whats behind it.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    Yea, you figure that 3 of those were ONSs that happened in Myrtle Beach when I was on vacation in August. And a 4th was a ONS up here in NY that just fell in my lap, literally. And, yea. 4 more.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Sue,

    This summer has been crazy. I’ve been learning a lot about myself that I’d never known before.

    For example, I’ve always thought of myself as a bit awkward looking, since I think I went through a seriously awkward stage in adolescence, with my head way too big for my scrawny body. There was a girl I met in my freshman year of college who actually nicknamed me Big-head. But my body, shoulders and all that eventually caught up with my head, so that I’ve had quite a few people lately ask if I play or played football in college. Though until this summer, I’ve been living with that old big-head frame.

    Also, I apparently have a sexy voice, something I never would’ve guessed (who likes the sound of his own voice?). So, since I’ve been told that, I’ve been playing up the poetical way of speaking.

    The other thing I work on, which I think helps a lot, is “gaming” guys as well as girls. I took that point from Neil Strauss, and I think it’s great game technique. The ability to go somewhere and game a whole group, rather than just a girl, is pretty powerful, in my opinion.

    Also (and here I may be bragging a bit), I’m naturally a pretty engaging story-teller, poetry aside.

    All said, game’s pretty fun and actually comes very natural to me. The only thing that burns me up (or would if I focused on it too much) is that I allowed myself to live a pathetic existence for so long.

  • Jennifer

    It’s a funny thing about voices, Jesus. When i read out loud in a group, my voice sounds wooden and dull to me. But I have an alto voice, and when i heard it on camera once, it sounded awesome!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Really, Jenn? I remember the first time I heard my own voice played back to me. I shuddered. I was mortified. I thought I had the oddest manner of speaking. Very distinct, but not, I thought, sexy or awesome or anything like that. I guess it was more that I felt like, “that’s not me. That’s not what I sound like.” It sounded like a stranger’s voice.

  • Anacaona

    I hate my voice too, I’m too loud and too fast but everyone here loves my accent “Accent? I don’t have any accent” but it seems that I do so that is odd. I also can’t sing if my life depended on it which is a shame because I love singing and I can learn songs very fast (my father was a musician so I have some musical blood in me I even composed a couple of songs), but I’m tone deaf so yeah I don’t think my voice is a good trait although most people do…funny that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I absolutely hate my voice on that old school video. I can hear a New York accent, even though I left there at the age of 10. Ugh!

  • http://ithinkilostgod.wordpress.com/ Butterfly Flower

    For example, I’ve always thought of myself as a bit awkward looking, since I think I went through a seriously awkward stage in adolescence, with my head way too big for my scrawny body. There was a girl I met in my freshman year of college who actually nicknamed me Big-head. But my body, shoulders and all that eventually caught up with my head, so that I’ve had quite a few people lately ask if I play or played football in college. Though until this summer, I’ve been living with that old big-head frame.

    Don’t all guys go through that “awkward scrawny” phase? Men physically mature later than women.

    I found a photo of my boyfriend from when he was around 19 [he's in his mid 20's now] – his shoulders were narrow and he was rail thin. His shoulders only recently broadened.

    Before I met my boyfriend I always went after older guys ’cause they’re cuter than the guys my age. 19-20 vs. 22-23; I preferred the 20-somethings.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    Susan, how about bringing the buttons back? Typing in the HTML by hand is a giant pain in the backside.

    […] Instead I ‘m working on migrating to a new theme which hopefully will perform better with plugins.

    And end result was that both buttons and that instruction was lost:

    You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kari et al re commenting features:

      I’ve installed some new capabilties – an HTML editor, ability to attach files, and an edit/delete button. The edit function is not yet working properly – but I am hopeful it will soon. Will keep you posted.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Butterfly Flower,

    Don’t all guys go through that “awkward scrawny” phase? Men physically mature later than women.

    Not sure. That could be.

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  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    The edit function is not yet working properly – but I am hopeful it will soon.

    Yes, it works now.

    (“Visual” mode have some problems, which are easiest to be fixed with switching to “HTML” mode  occasionally.)

     

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @Susan Walsh
    Oops. You was referring to edit/delete button.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    Susan,

    Your site certainly got more… colorful.  And I love the numbers, thank you so much for those.

    I’ve been thinking about the IOIs I give off.  There’s really only two that I give consistently.  First, I look at her, either her eyes or body.  Second, I look for her.  The second is probably a bigger give-away and requires an example.  There is a very attractive blond who works out at my gym whose a little too young for me.  When I’m there I will mark where she is and give her a quick glance or two.  I’ll give it some time before I look at her again for a quick moment.  However, if she moves, I will look for her again.  That’s gotta be the best way I indicate interest.

    Beyond that, I can’t think of any other good initial IOIs that I give off.

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Michael of Charlotte
      Thanks for those IOIs. I haven’t heard about looking for someone, checking in every so often to see where they are. Of course women do that too, and when both parties are doing it some eye contact is inevitable and obviously moves things forward.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    Susan Walsh wrote:

    edit/delete button.

    Yes. This is not visible.

    If there is delete button and message numbering is generated on page generation (display) time, then that numbering will not be stable.

    If delete button left placeholder (author cancelled message) or if message numbering is is generated posting time, then numbering is stable.

     

     

  • Six-pack abs

    @Susan Walsh
    This is not rocket science, people, and a woman’s skill in the sack may depend a great deal on her partner.

    Indeed.  When a girlfriend told me that she found sex with a new partner a kind of intriguing mystery I was dumbfounded.  To me sex has always been pretty much the same (modulo gradual improvement in my own skills and “compatibility”) and certainly not the kind of mystery she was talking about.

    Later I have become an avid dancer.  In partner dancing the man usually leads and the woman follows.  As a leader, I know a set of figures and compose my dance out of those while listening to the music and adding a bit of improvisation.  Given any good enough follower, I pretty much dance the same.  Given a bad follower, I will have to compensate for the follower’s lack of skill and will thus be limited by it.  On the other hand, even if the follower is extremely skilled, I just cannot lead arbitrary figures I don’t know.

    I’ve come to realize that sex and partner dancing are probably rather similar in some ways.  One, usually the male, is the leader and the other is the follower.  So, a woman, having sex with ten differently skilled males, each performing different sets of acts is likely to experience first time sex as a mystery of sorts.  On the other hand, a man having sex with ten women is likely to experience the sex pretty much the same each time.  Especially so if the male is inexperienced.

    When I just started dancing, women seemed interchangeable.  I couldn’t notice major differences in womens’ dancing skills, because my own skills were lacking.  Now that I’ve become much better at dancing, I can pretty quickly get a feel for the woman’s skill level based on how well she follows.  And, indeed, there are major differences in skill.  Some of the women I thought were good dancers when I was just starting now feel unskilled.  They probably haven’t had the opportunities to train with skilled enough leaders.

    The same seems to be the case with sex, too.  Fortunately, it seems that sex is much easier to learn than partner dancing.

  • Richard Aubrey

    I’m sixty-six years old.  I happened to be watchng my granddaughter playing soccer.  A woman who is the mother of one of my granddaughter’s best friends, i.e. half my age, who, with her hubby and daughter had visited us for a weekend, came up to me.  I reached to shake her hand.  She moved for a one-arm hug, cheek to cheek thingy.  Well, okay. I figure I followed that pretty smoothly–not that anybody gave me a grade– and congratulated myself on being prepared for anything.

    Point is, if this is what a woman does to a guy twice her age and not her hubby, how much is left for some guy she wants to attract?

    Well, as a friend of mine remarked, if it weren’t for ambiguity, dating wouldn’t be very interesting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard Aubrey
      What an interesting observation! I had to laugh, because you’re right. Recently the guys here suggested that a good way for a woman to show interest is to give a quick full body hug when departing. Contact at both the chest and pelvis. They said it had worked on several of them. I bet it did. I can’t even imagine doing such a thing!

  • Richard Aubrey

    I’d like to clarify my point, although I don’t think you missed it.  Between what happened to me and the full-body hug there is so little space that fine distinctions are pretty fine.  Micro-sliced, in fact.  Plenty of room for not getting it or getting it wrong.  Perhaps hugging an old guy in my situation is so harmless that they’d do it before they’d hug, say, an unmarried guy their own age.

  • Tree Hugger

    Richard, with all due respect, our generation is a generation of huggers, while your’s is more formal. To us, the hug is equivalent to the handshake.

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  • absolutely right

    women that play very hard to get, are certainly a tease to begin with. at my age, i am not into playing these games. i am a serious straight, down to earth man looking to meet a good woman today. the problem is, many of the women out there are very nasty with a very bad attitude problem. then again, many of them need so many men at one time to keep them happy instead of just having one man.

  • Candice

    Im sorry but I have to disagree with this post. Last night the guy I’d been seeing for almost a year (our relationship was never made official) ended things because I didn’t play hard to get. I think a part of him is still hung up on his ex who obviously put this guy at the bottom of her priorities list, making him ‘long’ to be wanted and accepted by her. She is not nearly as attractive as I am, yet he wanted to commit to her because she kept him at arms length. I am pretty, intelligent and independent (not to mention naive and innocent) and thought I was above playing this stupid game everyone was telling me to do. But now I’m left with a broken heart, and a bruised self worth. Trust me, men think they don’t like games, sorry – that goes for women as well – but they do. Human beings are flawed. We want what we can’t have.

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  • dave

    Sounds like a horrible, horrible and confusing game! Insanity?

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  • mark

    women that play hard to get are such losers in the first place, and not worth meeting at all.

  • Franko

    women that have to play hard to get are such LOSERS to begin with, and certainly not worth meeting at all.