I mentioned in my recent post about combat dating that there is evidence that relationship-minded men are hiding their true good intentions because they’ve learned they can’t get the girl that way.
Research has long confirmed that women are drawn to men who exhibit the Dark Triad traits: narcissism, thrill-seeking and deceitfulness. Men who score highest on these traits have the greatest number of sexual partners and focus on short-term affairs.
That awareness has been leading young men of good character to adopt the asshole strategy in order to get attention from women. However, they’re only pretending to be jerks, and must constantly remind themselves not to give away their true intention, which is to get a girlfiend.
How screwed up is that? Reports of young women avoiding commitment have either been increasing, or I’m just becoming more aware of them. Yesterday I received this email from a male reader in his 20s:
Hey Susan,
Here’s an example of what I have to put up with and the kind of behavior that drives me to the dark side as well.
A girl I knew a couple of years ago and whom I lost contact with got in touch a couple of weeks ago. We went on a date. We had a really good time catching up and I thought we clicked well (I liked her first time around but thought she was a bit of a tease back then, maybe she had grown up a little as she is almost 24 now… well she hadn’t changed as you’ll see).
2nd meetup we went to a street market and then a bar where we kissed a little. Due to a set of circumstances I won’t go into I ended up at her place (I couldn’t make the journey home) and slept in her bed but didn’t make any move other than a good night kiss. The little players / devils on my shoulder told me to make a move; ‘you snooze you lose’ etc. But I thought that since I’ve known her for a while I can take things a bit slower. After all she knows me and knows I have the balls to make a move if I want to.
For our next date she flaked due to a bad hangover from partying the night before (warning!). Her apology was pathetic, when I asked how she was going to make it up to me she texted: “I’ll invite you to my birthday party and you can buy me drinks all night” my simple “No” was answered with “Too bad, you lost your chance with me”.
Now as I said earlier I have a vague recollection of similar behaviour when we first met a couple of years ago so I wasn’t too shocked.
But I just don’t understand the motivation behind it? Why go through the trouble of looking me up after 3 years, adding me on FaceBook, meeting up with me, only to shoot me down so harshly, either because I didn’t sleep with her when I had the chance or because I won’t suck up to her afterwards? Either way it’s bizarre.
If she wasn’t feeling a spark with me, that’s fine. If she wanted to hookup and thinks I’m a pussy for not going for it, that’s fine. If she met some other guy that was cooler than me, that’s fine. But why go out of her way to try and humiliate me?
I’ll be honest, when things like this happen (and it happens often enough) I makes me realize that I should never deviate from the game-plan, which is to try to sleep with women as soon as possible. If I don’t someone else will and those guys are the ones that will have a shot at turning these girls into girlfriends, not the guys who decided to wait a even couple of days.
Anyway… just thought you’d like to hear a story from the front! 
Wow. Just wow. This is fascinating, in a car wreck sort of way. How is this even possible? “I’ll do you a favor and let you buy me drinks all night? That’s your consolation prize for not delivering your inner asshole when you had the chance.”
Guys acting like jerks to get laid is nothing new. What is new, at least to me, is reports of guys acting like jerks to get a relationship. The implications of this, strategically speaking, are staggering for both sexes. In the chaos of battle there is always opportunity, and I plan to write more about this when I return home in a few days. For now, though, I’m eager to hear your thoughts.
Do guys employ strategies for displaying Dark Triad traits with all women, or do you try to distinguish?
Is signaling openness to a relationship really the kiss of death? Even if you make it clear the woman must earn that commitment?
Do women seeking relationships have any idea men feel this way? If you really want a boyfriend, do you hope for one with a guy who will try for sex the first night? Is respectful behavior a deal breaker?
Would you hold it against a guy if he pressed hard for sex right away? Or are you flattered that he finds you hot?
Are these the hardened riders of the cock carousel? What percentage of women are we talking about here?
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Every girl I have ever dated, I have been a huge ass with. In the same way that you’d go take a girl to the malt shop and maybe a movie back in the 50s, now a days you push as hard and as fast as possible for sex, and act as non-committal as possible. Just the way things work.
The thing is, people want what they can’t have. So as soon as you make yourself available, you make yourself less desirable. I dated a girl for 2 years, and I refused to commit to her for the first 2 months we were “hanging out.” She wasn’t a carousel rider by any means, yet at one point during the relationship she told me she felt like she accomplished something when we made it official.
I honestly had no idea this would be a new and startling thing for you, it just seems like the way things are done.
From the perspective of a woman who likes to flirt and get laid, I have to say, this woman who sought you out is lame! You were right to not sleep with her because it didn’t feel right to YOU, which is the most important consideration in making a decision.
So do you regret NOT sleeping with her? Where would you be now if you had? Same spot… Dating someone who doesn’t consider your feelings and thinks a great “date” is YOU buying her drinks?
Ugh… Pass, dude. There are better fish in the sea.
I had to re-read this because I was in such disbelief. Guys, please don’t act like jerks for the sake of getting in a relationship. For 1, women who are attracted to jerks have their own issues. If they can’t (or haven’t) yet recognize that they’re dating jerks, you don’t want to be the one to insert your nice-guy-self into that hot mess. I don’t want to be anecdotal, but really, my girlfriends and I MUCH prefer the nice guys, and really don’t give a whole lot of attention to the cocky guys at the bar surrounded by the women who DO like that type of behavior.
My current beau appropriately showed affection and sweet behavior balanced with the “alpha” traits of opening my door, ordering my drink (“Do you like mango? I must insist you order the mango mojito… what do you think?” is much better than “she’ll have the mango mojito”), to planning dates and being appropriately aggressive. (“I know you’ve had a rough day… Come over at 7, I have the perfect paleo diet friendly dinner simmering for you.”)
I short, his nice guy ways melts my freaking butter.
Flowers, chocolates, expensive restaurants are all “nice,” but romance (for me), is a gesture that shows this guy REALLY takes an interest in me, and is generally much cheaper than those cheesy “romantic” gestures. If you want to stand out, find out some of her interests and cater your time together so to incorporate those. If she’s AT ALL smart, she’ll reward you with the same in return. For example, I showed up for dinner that he planned at a paleo-friendly restaurant (I’m paleo, he’s not, but he took the time to research it to find something I’d like and even make suggestions at the restaurant!) with a book I thought might interest him based on previous conversations.
I am really fucking tired of these asshole girls fucking up my chances at a relationship with a good guy.
Wow, the “woman” in that letter seems to have really internalized the “alpha/beta” thing. If you’re an alpha, you demand sex immediately. If you don’t, you’re a beta, and all you’re good for is giving them tribute through your wallet. What women have done to themselves is truly amazing.
First I tried to act like a jerk to get a relationship. But she let me know I was faking it, she knew that wasnt me. I was too good to be a jerk.
Then I became a real jerk. I didnt bother about her anynore. I was too busy jerking around. She had to see that first hand, and then wanted everything with me.
But, too late honey.
This sounds like a great time to be an STD.
I remember in 8th grade my teacher was describing a woman he knew that would always sleep with a man by date 3. He said that she hated the whole process, but she felt like a relationship didn’t count if there wasn’t sex involved. The class was shocked (this was at a Catholic school).
Little did I know how common this attitude would be when I grew up.
I find it interesting reading the stories of some of the men at HUS, something that keeps cropping up repeatedly is that shared experience, the ‘taking of the red pill’ – good men slowly, painfully waking up to the fact that the Sexual MarketPlace simply isn’t what they’ve been raised to think it is. Men who want to be honest & open with the women that they meet, & then learning that’s simply not what those women want. That being a nice guy isn’t enough. They had to learn dishonesty, just to get by, to cover up their true feelings – both their sexual desires & their deeper emotions too – or else be thought weak & needy. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to us then, that men are using asshole game to make whatever kind of connection to the opposite sex they can. But it is a pity.
The only answer I can presently see is for women en masse to change their expectations & behaviour towards men. I don’t know if that’s even possible, whether it’s too hardwired in there or not, but I don’t see any alternative to women at large treating men a lot better than they have been doing.
Honestly, there is no downside to pressing for sex. If a girl offers resistance, either she’s being good or she’s not particularly into you. If she goes for it, she may have to earn her way back into the marriage pile (if you don’t know what she’s like and suspect she might simply be easy), but at least there is a clear mutual understanding that you want to be more than friends. It’s been said before, but being assertive about intimacy is one of the best and only tests in a guy’s arsenal. Regardless of the outcome, you will learn something important.
Heidi,
I could not agree more- very well put.
I do actually know women who are like the one described but I would guess they are a ‘significant minority’ as opposed to a majority.
Maybe she was trying to do ‘girl game’ and was unskilled or maybe she was simply a jerk.
If its the latter he got a lucky escape- you have to kiss few frogesses I guess…..
Along with being cultured, funny, successful, and tall, I am a romantic, affectionate, caring, and loyal man. But in my teenage years and early adulthood, I learned that I could NEVER reveal the “nice” side of myself to women until after we had already slept together. And that’s not because I was only after sex. I was genuinely interested in a LTR. But I knew she would leave me very fast if I demonstrated I cared about her before I had gotten my penis in her vagina. Even after that point, I had to be very cautious with the caring and affection because too much of it made her complacent and then lose interest in me.
At this point I have completely given up on women, because it is too stressful for me to go against my natural wants and needs (to be caring and affectionate) just so I can get sex. It’s not worth it.
I am sure there will be all kinds of women reading Susan’s post, and my reply, thinking “He’s chasing disturbed women” or “Not all women are like that.” Well, I am here to tell you that Nearly All Women Are Like That, at least in my age group (young Gen Xers and older Gen Y.) And I have dated girls of all personality types too. I know it pains women to listen to men talk about this, but I know TONS of guys who have had very similar experiences.
So my suggestion to women, is instead of putting your fingers in your ears and saying “Lalallalalalalalalalla!!!!” when men tell you your gender is on the highway to hell, you may want to unplug one ear.
Susan Walsh has a lot of wisdom for you.
Dude, you dodged a fucking bullet not dating that chick. Can you imagine what a relationship would be like with her? Let her date an asshole; seems to me water finds its own level.
Also, as Hooking Up Smart’s resident Giant-ass Slut, I’d like to point out that “have to have sex by date three” is such a colossally fucking stupid idea I don’t have any fucking words for it. Speaking for myself, I want to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with me, not someone who’s strategizing to try to find the best option to get me into a relationship and to seem sexual but not slutty. If someone actually likes you, they’ll wait until you actively desire sex with them; if they don’t, they’re an asshole.
I mean, obviously, you should talk about it. Open and honest communication is a good thing. But don’t ever apologize for not wanting sex or for needing longer to feel comfortable having sex with someone. That’s fine and wonderful!
Virgins of HUS, I know it’s hard when you’re part of a sexual minority. (Says the poly person.) But don’t have sex until you find someone who you won’t regret having sex for the first time with– and that usually means someone who shares your values and places the same importance you do on sex. Captain Awkward has some really good advice about dating as a virgin.
Also, maybe I’m odd, but it seems to me if you stick to the three-date rule you’ll end up racking up a lot of partners anyway. If I only had sex with people who had three dates with me, I’d have had five partners over the last two years!
First of all Susan, the girl in your article wanted nothing more than to get laid, plain and simple. Coming across some dude she knows from the past who she finds kind of attractive is a bonus because it’s the easiest way to from point A to sex -the fact that he’s familiar is a plus to her, a home run situation.. Ending up in a girl’s bed at the end of the night is a big-ass green flag. She humiliated the guy because she wanted dick, and in her mind she put herself way out there to make it easy for him to take the bait. What happened was more about her motives than his.
That said, back to the focus. A few things I’ve found to be true about seeking a relationship:
1) Going for sex early often gives you the option to choose if you want a relationship or not because…
2) When you sleep with a girl for the first time it puts you in the driver’s seat and…
3) Women WANT you to be in the driver’s seat because ultimately the fact that she’s sleeping with you means that you are a guy that has what she wants at gut level.
You can’t pump the brakes on desire, so why try?
Good. That’s where the change must come from. Women being unwilling to tolerate this shit from other women.
Heidi and ozy’s advice are repeat of age-old beta poison: “oh, you really didn’t want to sleep with her anyway! Think how bad it would be! She wasn’t good enough for you!”
Seriously, ignore that stuff. They sound like my mom.
It’s better to go out, make mistakes, and learn, that to sit home pounding your pud. If a girl isn’t interested in a relationship, then go casual. Stop being a white-knight and thinking all girls don’t want casual.
[quote]Susan Said:
Do guys employ strategies for displaying Dark Triad traits with all women, or do you try to distinguish?[/quote]
My personal experience says in nearly all interactions, you HAVE to play your cards in such a way that a woman can at least infer what your mating strategy is. I personally cannot tell a woman’s attraction triggers before she has made her initial assessment of me. By then, it’s usually WAY too late to backtrack into a relationship.
In reading between the lines at Roissy, Krauser, Dalrock, and Badger…. Even hardened players are not so good as to detect a woman’s mating strategy before he would have to define his own approach strategy. Even Tyler Durden described some women as “good girls” who went and banged drug dealers after he and his buddies had rejected them.
It has to do with the difference between men and women. Women naturally hide their strategy while men naturally have theirs open.
From what I’ve seen…there’s a general lack of tolerance towards men who want long term relationships with women, but have certain negotiables…for instance an in field approach of “hey, I’m implying that I like you and I’d like to see if we click socially” will almost always earn a “fuck off forever” from women, whereas a “yo, I’m implying ur fuckable, feel my charisma” at least has a snowball’s chance in hell of working.
My GUESS as to the principle involved: anti-slut defense. The girl feels like a slut if she’s entertaining the unsolicited romantic interest of a guy, even if the relationship isn’t sexual. Which is kinda backwards, because it’s her best shot at a relationship stable enough to help prevent her from gooing over an alpha while drunk.
As a guy, you can only have women tell you to fuck off forever so many times before you start to think that any strategy that respects women is simply bad strategy. It’s not that all women are like that, either. I’ve SEEN several women with apparent high tolerance to beta. What happens, though, is that they spend almost all of their dating lives in a relationship.
About a generation ago, our society got hold of two curious notions…
1) Dating should be monogamous
2) Dating = sex
Taken together, I think the average female response is understandable. Anyone who approaches a woman with any romantic interest in mind is proposing marriage. Anyone who asks a woman out on a date is entitled to sex. Combine this with a culture that says a woman must be “in love” (read: physically attracted to alpha) in order to have a relationship. From here, you can see what happens to most guys…particularly ones who play by the old rules.
[quote]Susan Said:
Is signaling openness to a relationship really the kiss of death? Even if you make it clear the woman must earn that commitment?[/quote]
This was actually my strategy for the better part of 3 years. Out of numerous RL and online approaches, I got 2 girlfriends from this. They were both from a religious dating site. One was average looking, but had a bossy personality… the other had a good personality but was ugly.
With that strategy, even a decent looking guy can forget about anyone who isn’t 1 sex rank below or lower (10 pt scale) compared to him. And even then, the personality is probably not going to be very good.
[quote]Susan Said:
Are these the hardened riders of the cock carousel? What percentage of women are we talking about here? [/quote]
From what I can see, the vast majority of women are setting out rules like this:
If a man hints that he likes a woman by smiling within the first 5 minutes, he’s done.
If a man plays up the nice card and gets friended by the girl, he’s done.
If a man displays any sort of anger, discontent, or stress (regardless of the situation), he’s done.
If a man disagrees with a woman, he’s done.
If a man is less than completely independent. he’s done.
The preceeding rules do not apply if the vagina tingles.
Heidi and jess
You guys are completely out of touch with the modern sexual marketplace for men. Completely. If women honestly didn’t prefer jerks/get lady boners for the dark triad, “Nice guys finish last” would have never become a cultural meme, guys like Roissy/Heartiste would have been laughed out of the blogosphere, and there wouldn’t be legions of men out there who all have similar stories about being burned for being too nice.
As I see it, women would be smart to be conservative about sex. Women have more to lose, especially if they ever want children. This is the price women pay for maternity being a fact while paternity is an opinion. TANSTAAFL.
Ceer,
All on point.
Anon –
I’m not saying you shouldn’t fuck whomeve you want, I’m just saying in this particular case, this woman is stupid, vapid, and insecure. And as much as love having sex, I’m rather particular about my lovers… I don’t fuck the insecure, stupid, or vapid.
Ozy – I’m a poly slut, too.
I’ll tell you this much. Anytime I’ve easily bedded a women after meeting her, it isn’t relationship material. It’ll be short term and I know it. She might not though. But I also know if I don’t push to sleep with a girl fast, it’s likely nothing will happen and she’ll begin to flake. However, I have a hard time respecting any woman who will sleep with me on the first date. I don’t even really respect myself much after the experience. As fun as it is at the time, it doesn’t benefit me in any way, shape or form over the long term. It just darkens my behaviour patterns with women and I continue to assume that I have to push early or forget being with any woman I am attracted to.
So yes, I have to be a “jerk”. Although it’s become more normal behaviour and can easily shape my personality if I let it. It goes against how I would behave in an ideal world if I wanted to be in a relationship with a woman. This is why I”m not married.
That good girl that I’m attracted to, who truly doesn’t play games is a rare breed. I don’t feel good about myself not calling a girl back after I’ve slept with her too soon and have lost respect for her. Sometimes I even choose to pass on the opportunity because it’s getting old and it leads nowhere. I don’t even bother to get in touch with said girl again because she’ll likely flake, but I’m also uninterested after her behaviour. It’s a balance though because nobody likes to be led on, and in this day and age, if a girl is making you wait longer than three dates, it’s likely you are being played. But I can live with the three-date rule.
If she had a history of flaking (and by extension disrespecting you), what made you think this time would be any different? Screen for character and keep your trump card close to home until you can safely establish that she isn’t a slave to her ego or vagina if you still want to go the LTR route. If not, well, then it’s your prerogative.
Complete and utter bollocks. And the worst thing is that you know it.
Susan Walsh wrote:
Should that “Dark Triad traits” be link ?
Source looks strange:
the <a href:="" http:="" http://www.independent.co.uk="" news="" science="" why-women-really-do-love-selfobsessed-psychopaths-850007.html="">Dark Triad traits</a>: narcissism,Perhaps: Dark Triad traits
Isabel,
Complete and utter bollocks. And the worst thing is that you know it.
Can you expand on this a little? You may for all I know be right but I really don’t have a clue what you’re saying.
Actually having said the above. If a guy really likes a girl enough and she seems good and not some game-playing, attention-whore, he might just wait until date four or five. Three-date rule is so universal now it seems like it’s some kind of law. If I truly liked a girl, I’d probably hold out…but I don’t know this yet because the ones I’ve ran into won’t do this. If I don’t like the girl that much, or I can tell she’s a game-player or is trying to make up for past mistakes (she’s a used hag with plenty of issues), I’ll just stop seeing her after the third date. Maybe this is something girls should keep in mind if they truly want something serious with a guy who actually likes them.
@SayWhaat: “I am really fucking tired of these asshole girls fucking up my chances at a relationship with a good guy.”
So this “good guy” is going for a girl that likes to get drunk and hungover from bars. Then he’s surprised she’d behave this way. Afterwards, he concludes from this incident that all women are like this, so he must start treating all women like this.
This guy sounds like he could use some growing up himself.
Look girl. This guy is NOT some kind of saint. I’m betting this girl is hot and therefore gets away with the kind of behavior she’s engaging in all the time while she’s still young. He’s not mature enough to look past mere appearances.
There was nothing in the post about what, if at all, they had in common besides the superficial like partying, drinking and having known each other for a while. What does he see in her besides sex? What does she see in him besides drinking/money?
I’ve met so many guys like this in my life. I actually have standards, so they have never laid a single finger on me.
A few months I asked a whole bunch of 20 something guys about dark game etc.
.
Nearly all said it was idiotic.
.
They all got the ‘treat em mean’ logic but only in a mild sense.
.
When I reported it here, you wouldn’t Beleive the hostility i got. I mean I was bringing good news and they shot it down. It’s like they want girls to be horrid for something to rail against. I just don’t get it.
.
Surely they realise that women are not homogenous? Some girls may respond to game, some will run a mile.
.
Smiling, being kind, considerate, not rushing etc will not = celibacy.
.
My personal preference is not to muck around on these things but there are loads of girls who like, a slower approach.
STD = sexually transmitted disease
Can’t be this.
/ Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms
Jess:
The reason men here won’t believe you is because they were the sort of good guys that you describe, and all it got them was frustration. Then they do the opposite and are faced with success. There just isn’t a good reason to believe you.
Hey Byron,
I resent it because it doesn’t match up with neither reality nor what the Manosphere says about female preferences. He’s saying that the ”vast majority of women” effectively want a supplicating, inanimate and wholly dependent partner. Unless there’s a tingle which, funnily enough, is usually created by doing the exact opposites of those above traits. Which is it? How can we both like and hate it? Ridiculous.
@Hope
The fellow in the post was looking for something beyond appearances. It would be nice to get the whole package. That’s why he took her out. That’s why he didn’t go for the gusto that night.
I thought the whole point of dating was to feel the other person out, not up.
@Kari
Try looking at it from the Sexually Transmitted Disease’s point of view. It’s a great time for them.
“The fellow in the post was looking for something beyond appearances. It would be nice to get the whole package. That’s why he took her out. That’s why he didn’t go for the gusto that night.”
The whole package of an alcohol -hardened girl who says stuff like “you can buy me drinks all night”? That girl is called fool’s gold. He got fooled by her shiny golden appearance and found a rock underneath.
But instead of looking for real gold, he still wants other shiny golden rocks. If this guy was truly looking for the real deal, he would be ecstatic to not have slept with a girl who was probably so trashy as to be infested with STDs, so that he didn’t give a bunch to a future good wife.
Instead, his conclusion was: push for sex next time!
I’m not an asshole.
Never have been. And hopefully never will be. Oh, I can be pretty cynical about some things, but I was raised to respect others before myself. (Haven’t quite shaken that off yet…)
That said, the whole “acting like an asshole to get women?” I’ve tried it.
It does work.
I used it in only a few situations – none of which were the typical bar/club/party scenario. (I don’t get invited to those things, unless someone needs a DD).
It’s -frightening- how well it works. Even for me! One time a woman just would not leave me alone, despite my rudely telling her to take a hike. (She was bossy and I had an old friend with me. Female friend, from grade school. Who, I might note, said absolutely nothing about my actions…)
As for that “I’ll let you buy me drinks” thing? It’s only happened once, on a first date. There wasn’t a second. Thanks for telling me how entitled you really are, woman. I’m out of here!
What am I saying here? I’m saying that if I perceive acting like a jerk would get me a relationship, I would try it again. No apologies. If that’s what women respond to now, then I can make a go. (May not work because I have very little practice, but hey, worth a shot!)
Being considerate of others, not horribly pushy, showing intelligence instead of arrogance? It just gets me walked all over. I’m DONE with that.
FYI: I’m in the same age group as “Never Nice” above. Right there with you, brother.
@Byron
“The only answer I can presently see is for women en masse to change their expectations & behaviour towards men. I don’t know if that’s even possible, whether it’s too hardwired in there or not, but I don’t see any alternative to women at large treating men a lot better than they have been doing.”
Very well said. I would like to see this too. But I’m not holding my breath.
If you see an editor plugin that has two tabs (
VisualandHTML-tab). Paint the area and selectBlockquotefrom drop-down menu.Or you can change to
HTML-tab and write:<blockquote>Susan Said:Do guys employ strategies for displaying Dark Triad traits with all women, or do you try to distinguish?</blockquote>You can use that also if there is no Editor -plugin.
☻
/ Kari “HTML -course” Hurtta
@ Hope
Yikes. You’re being way too harsh. One, most people act more lenient towards an attractive person than they would otherwise be with an average person, not just men. Two, you can’t castigate him for assuming things about women when you yourself are assuming that he is given her chances purely based on her appearance. There’s zero evidence to suggest that. What if he gave her a second chance because he’s God forbid, a forgiving person? What if he gave her a chance because she contacted him after three years of distance? She’s malicious, he’s a wee bit dim (no offence OP). He has every right to be annoyed after being asked out, flaked on and then roundly insulted for his efforts to not treat her like a sex object. Sure, he should have seen it coming based on but it’s understandable that he is angry with her. He can bugger off if he wants to be angry with women as a collective, however.
She offered sex , he refused it. A superficial guy doesn’t do that.
Well, I don’t mean to be too harsh on the guy. I never said he was a horrible person, but he does sound quite immature. I’m only 3 years older than the girl in the story, and I feel like I’m from an entirely different generation. My husband is the same age as me, and 3 years ago when we first met, he sounded so much more mature than him.
I was also responding to SayWhaat’s post about how girls like that are ruining “good guys” and screwing up her chances. The girls in my husband’s past who treated him badly didn’t “ruin” him. He appreciates me a lot because I’m way ahead of the female competition.
Susan, I have a comment in moderation.
Anonymous: I do not know why I would say “women are not interested in casual sex.” I’m interested in casual sex! I’m currently having casual sex (for varying definitions of “casual”) with four different people! Saying women don’t like casual sex would distinctly harm my interests.
However, that doesn’t change that that chick was an asshole and that dude should count his blessings they didn’t end up in a relationship, even a casual-sex-relationship. Get out before the drama, I say.
Dating would probably be a lot easier if EVERYONE stopped playing these stupid games. If you let her treat you like shite (“I’ll LET you buy ME drinks”) and then reward her behavior with sexual gratitude, all you’re doing is reassuring her that she can get away of this terrible behavior. You are doing no one a favor, male or female.
Look, I get that women don’t like the “super” nice guy… But that doesn’t mean they like dicks. We like men to be confident, but not cocky. Self-confident but not arrogant. Assertive but not aggressive. We don’t want you to treat us like shit, but we do want to see that you are confident and in demand. Don’t bow down to us just because we have a vagina and are looking for a relationship. all it makes us think is that you’ll get with ANYONE who wants to be in a relationship. Instead, do things that make us think we’re special because of who we are, and not because of what we have between our legs. THAT kind of nice guy behavior will separate you from all the others.
This isn’t the first time I’ve posted, but it’s been several months. I’ve mostly been keeping up with the articles on this blog during that time.
This article rings surprisingly true. Some time near the end last spring I figured out that the only way to get a girl to date you is to hook up with her first. I immediately tried this strategy on the girl I was courting at the time, and it would have worked if not for my roommate at the time intentionally cock blocking me and then another guy beating me to the punch (sleeping with her first).
After all this went down I heard from another girl, who I hadn’t spoken to in 52 days (she counted), who I had hooked up with at that time (though she, unfortunately, had a boyfriend). She’d been pining over me for that whole time and her relationship with that same boyfriend was ending (though it took a few more weeks for them to actually break up). She then came to visit me 3 times over the course of the summer and we hooked up again all of those times. When she came to visit the 4th time I asked her out and we’ve been happily dating ever since. I have never been on a date with her that was planned as such, though we’ve been on several outings that were basically dates.
This is so different from my previous strategy (escalating dates along side escalating sexual intimacy) that it still surprises me how easy it was. By the time we were speaking again I basically had her in the bag.
Take from this what you will, but acting like an asshole (hooking up with another guy’s girlfriend) has done more for my LTR search than all my previous dating attempts combined. The best part is that now that we’re dating I can let out my inner nice guy and be as sweet as I’ve always wanted to with someone who actually appreciates it. I can honestly say I that cannot remember a time in my life in which I was happier.
Well, you sorta did by implying that he is shallow, immature and chases shiny, STD-ridden rocks at the expense of good girls/future wife. Out of the two people involved, he probably isn’t the villain here. Though I do agree with your second point. I don’t see the logic of courting an entitled, flakey drunkard for a while and then projecting her qualities onto the rest of us when entitled, flakey drunkard turns out to be — shock horror — ENTITLED AND FLAKEY.
DD = designated driver ?
/ Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms
@Kari – Exactly. I drink very rarely. Don’t like the taste of alcohol.
Hey, maybe if I got sloshed, I’d have better luck with women!
…no, still not worth it.
Smiling, being kind, considerate, not rushing etc will not = celibacy
What world do you live on? I need a vacation
<i>Men who want to be honest & open with the women that they meet, & then learning that’s simply not what those women want. That being a nice guy isn’t enough. They had to learn dishonesty, just to get by, to cover up their true feelings – both their sexual desires & their deeper emotions too – or else be thought weak & needy.</i>
Women (historically) never wanted honesty and openness. The notion that they did came along when feminists tried to introduce equality to relationships.
Men shouldn’t be honest and open with women. Women can offer warmth, admiration, sex, companionship, food, and children. Men who need emotional support can get a therapist or join a Victorian-era men’s club.
@ Hiedi
Too little, too late.
Chris: Ugh, I hate drinking.
Ted: If she cheats with you, she’ll cheat on you. When you come back in six months complaining about how women are all cheating whores, I will have very little sympathy.
I see.
☺
Actually missus taught me to drink cider after sauna.
I have drunk my sauna cider now.
“Well, you sorta did by implying that he is shallow, immature and chases shiny, STD-ridden rocks at the expense of good girls/future wife.”
Sometimes a spade is a spade.
@Jess
You asked GUYS about dark game. That’s your problem. If they’re typical blue pill men, they will take your question seriously, but will actually respond that game is bunk. If they’re typical red pill men, they’ll assume you’re shit testing them, and tell you what they think you want to hear to get into your pants.
@Kari Hurta
I’m used to editors that require BB code. Will take your suggestions, though.
@Heidi
A guy with nice guy game NEVER gets as far with women to do as you describe. He WILL be dismissed out of hand, no dates, no questions asked. Many men I know actually have standards about which girls they commit to, but they are always rejected by women before they get the chance to talk about this.
Heidi-
“Dating would probably be a lot easier if EVERYONE stopped playing these stupid games.”
Men didn’t start this war. But now that we’re fighting it, we’re not going to stop until we’re either dead or the victor.
“If you let her treat you like shite (“I’ll LET you buy ME drinks”) and then reward her behavior with sexual gratitude, all you’re doing is reassuring her that she can get away of this terrible behavior. You are doing no one a favor, male or female.”
I think it’s pretty clear the men here are not putting up with shite. I have flat-out left girls alone in a bar with no ride home after over-the-top bitchy behavior.
“Look, I get that women don’t like the “super” nice guy… But that doesn’t mean they like dicks. We like men to be confident, but not cocky. Self-confident but not arrogant. Assertive but not aggressive.”
Just because you are a woman doesn’t mean you know what women are attracted to. When I was dating I was not a super-asshole, but I was very cocky, teasing, and arrogant. I basically make a big joke of everything the woman did, like she was a bratty little sister.
“We don’t want you to treat us like shit, but we do want to see that you are confident and in demand.”
Well, hate to break it to you, but in order to be in demand, average men have to act like cocky and arrogant jerks. Really good looking or rich men can take other approaches and get by with it. Us everyday blokes have to be dicks.
“Don’t bow down to us just because we have a vagina and are looking for a relationship. all it makes us think is that you’ll get with ANYONE who wants to be in a relationship.”
Again, nobody here is advocating pussy worship. Quite the opposite.
“Instead, do things that make us think we’re special because of who we are, and not because of what we have between our legs. THAT kind of nice guy behavior will separate you from all the others.
”
Tell that to the millions upon millions upon millions of men who experienced nothing but frustration behaving that way.
If women want to be treated like they are special, give guys a reason to do so. If women don’t want to be treated like vaginas, stop sleeping with the guys who do treat you like vaginas.
Not rocket science.
@Ozymandias
That was a big concern of mine, but she and I have had lengthy discussions on that point, and I’m honestly not worried.
wow, this is a great article and story. now i have something to throw to the pot…now i do use the surname batman, but i am speaking about my personal history here. now in life i am a “nice” guy…you know take care of my folks, designated driver when possible, all that good stuff. now about 3 years ago, i went through some personal stuff i was in therapy but hey…something it no work…just got to ride it out. so being a hispanic male i did what we i learned from my fater when i was stressed..i drank, HEAVYLY, ( BURBON BABY ! THE BEST THING MADE IN THE USA !) smoked heavly, did pot, coke all the traditional hitting rock bottom stuff. now this is were it gets interesting…during that period of about 8 months, the ladies just well were always around. now while i was drinking and doing all this stuff, i still keep my job..helped the folks, was in day to day life a “nice” guy….so in retrospect, i was never an asshole, but rather a nice guy going through some shit.
my point is this, we have to face facts that just as men love a challenge, women do too. and some women equate an asshole as a challenge. kinda like ” if i can get this arrogant asshole who only has room in his life for himself to pay attention to me, THEN i must be worth something ! i must be special !” . what is happening now in young men is that they see this behavior in women and think, I MUST BE AND ASSHOLE TOO ! what we need to teach young men, is the truth…love is not supposed to be boring.. so be a challenge. the problem with “nice” guys is that… the girl already knows what the end game is…”if i want as, a girl, i can let him fuck me” where is the damn adventure ?
returning to my story, so for the first few weeks of my drinking binge, i just wanted to suffer alone, so being a nice guy..i just went to bars to drink and not be alone. so no where in my mind was i thinking “OHH lets see if i can go home with that one !”..what happened? after a while of going to the same bars, girls just started noticing me..why ? i was a challenge..sociable guy, has a job, drinks, flirts….but never shows genuine interest in a specific girl… of course what these girls did not know is i left the bar to buy a bottle of bourbon before last call so i could go home and drink… but i was a challenge..nothing of my nice guy persona had been changed. now how do you become a challnege..who knows….
Ted –
A woman who cheats (or lies by omission) would not be high on my list of people I trust. And, personally, I much prefer to get involved (either sexually or relationship-wise) with people I trust. So even though your asshole-ish ways landed you the woman, you’re with a woman who lies.
Falkenberg -
I don’t understand the too little too late bit. Can you elaborate?
Ceer -
Wrong. I’ve both been in relationships and hooked up with nice guys. I LIKE nice guys! I love the nerds and geeks! They make the best conversationalists and are definitely into the same things as me. My only complaint might be that I end up dating or fucking a lot of guys who arent as confident as I like.
But like I said, I’m poly, so I end up dating these “beta” guys but then teaching them how to “game.” (I just didn’t know there was a name for it, but alpha game, I guess.) I’m not at all attracted to assholes, but I much prefer men who are confident and have a touch of the swagger.
But the thing is, if being nice isn’t working, why does that automatically mean one has to be an asshole? That means there’s a happy medium somewhere, and finding that balance is key.
I’m on my phone, so I’m submitting this comment just so irony lose everything, but I have a few examples. Bear with me…
So how can a guy be be both nice, and confident and the “bad boy”….
Desire. We can all agree that a guy in demand and desired is definitely more attractive than the desperate one. When asking her out say, “I have date on Saturday, but if you’d have me, I’d love to take you for Greek food next Wednesday. There’s a new place I’ve wanted to try, but no one seems quite as adventurous as you when it comes to trying new places.” (or whatever… Tie it back to the conversation) So now she knows you’re in demand, and she’s willing to wait a couple extra days to see you again. But be sure to text her in the meantime.
Assertive. Nothing is more annoying than doing the whole “where do YOU want to go?” thing for dinner. Bah. Plan, gentlemen! Take action! And when she gets in the car, show her you were listening… “Hey, you mentioned your vacation to Australia… If you have time, after dinner I’d love to take you out to the museum… They’re playing a movie about the great barrier reef. Interested?” Now you’ve also showed her you’re able to pay attention!
If you’re not getting this far with women, you’re not playing the numbers game. I’m a math teacher and a hockey fan. It’s a numbers game. Ask out more women! Figure out your stats… If you get 10 rejections for every yes, then you need to burn through 10 noes to get your next yes. And that next yes is an opportunity to show off your new confidence skills.
This is long, and like I said, I’m on my phone which makes typing and scrolling rather difficult. I’ll end this hear, but look forward to the “this never works” arguments.
Ceer,
Yeah, I heard that last time from the cynics on here.
Trouble is I asked a variety of guys, in different contexts and they all know I am luvved up with kids. No reason for them to lie. (and i was/am 15-20 yrs their senior)
I did meet the odd one that DID agree with dark game and a couple more that subscribed to ‘mild’ game but most guys said it was BS.
Heidi’s most recent post describes it really well….
its a matter of subtleties…….. confidence yes, arrogance yuk!
Will you agree to some extent that even with college education women are making some very poor choices in life?
chris and nuumm,
look, if you have had success with poor behaviour, I can hardly deny your reality.
but equally its also a reality that if you had tried that with me, back in the day, the only wetness you would experienced would have been a glass of chilled white wine in your face.
And I am sure that is true of a lot girls today.
You may just find, that acting like a jerk, may cost you a wonderful relationship.
I should also say that when a guy acts like a ‘nasty’ jerk, many women start thinking ‘over-compensation’. This is not sexy- really
And if women gossip and take against a guy- well, a reputation can quickly circulate.
so whilst your tactics may have good outcomes- there may less desirable consequences too- just sayin…
@ Susan
You may want to read Roosh’s latest 2 articles. They’re very similar to this one. The commentaries are long especially for the first link. My commentaries are made on 79,104,106,107,108,109,112,144,153,154,156,160 and 161 on the first link. My commentaries are made on 39,40 and 41 for the second link.
Here are the links.
http://www.rooshv.com/you-did-this-to-me#comments
http://www.rooshv.com/the-manosphere-for-dummies#comments
lovelost,
are you talking to me? then oh yes! totally!
@ Susan Walsh
I meant to say his articles especially the first one are similar to your article with post 55 above. Please read my commentaries if you can. I don’t have the energy to reprint them here.
Actually it was directed towards all the women who are reading this blog, not pointing out anybody specific.
The previuos message was from me forgot the name
Lovelost,
ok- fair enough
I suspect they won’t contradict me too much although the again, maybe they would argue about what constitutes a poor choice…
Anyhow, I have said this before and I will say it again and especially to men,
Stop blaming the alpha Guys as well as women, focus on your life, find your purpose, travel you will meet more people and understand the fact that if you came this far you can and will make it to the end as well. Be confident and be positive.
After reading HUS, Roissy, I have been asking some very hard questions to myself, and one thing that keeps coming up if I came this far all by myself without the support of a women what is stopping me to move ahead. I don’t have an complete answer yet, however hopefully will have it. Til then I refused to sit at home and comPlain about the dating scene.
Ceer: Your statement is that men who are nice NEVER get dates? Are you sure you don’t want to put some caveats on that? “Men who are nice get fewer dates”, maybe? “Men who are nice date less conventionally attractive women”? “Men who are nice are more likely to be celibate”?
Because that statement right there is one I can prove wrong, right now, by literally walking two steps outside my door and groping the ass of my ex-boyfriend-now-fuckbuddy, whom I first became interested in when he was introduced to me as “he has very pretty long hair and is so inhumanly nice everyone thinks he’s secretly a supervillain who’s supernice so no one suspects, because there is no way someone is that kind a person naturally.”
I’ve been back in school for a while now, meeting a lot of new people and a lot of new girls. Since I have to work with these people, I’ve privately declared them all off-limits (don’t sh*t where you eat). But we go out drinking every week or two, and that’s when things get interesting.
See, I’ll meet new girls at these bars, and I’ll be in full-on asshole mode. Negs are just a start. Laughing at them for minor awkwardness is the next step. Sometimes I tell them to buy me a drink (tell, not ask). It works sometimes, which is far more often than “Hi, what’s your name?” But the real kicker is the reaction from female classmates out with me. “This is a whole different side of you,” one of them said the other night. If it was just confusion at my inconsistent behavior, that’d be fine. But these girls who see me in workaholic beta mode during the day, once they’ve seen me in asshole-alpha mode at night, have responded. Three times with blatant come-ons, and more often with subtle flirting. I’m still sticking to the limits, though. For now.
Admittedly, it’s not a perfect sample since these girls are seeing me in alpha and beta mode, rather than just alpha mode. Still, the moment of their reactions is confirmation enough in my mind.
I think we have to watch out for the fact there are two Teds commenting at HUS – one is recently divorced, the other is I believe a student at CMU.
“Will you agree to some extent that even with college education women are making some very poor choices in life?”
As I guy with a very strong hard-wired attraction for smart women, I have found to my considerable heartbreak that oftentimes intelligence and education simply gives a woman a bigger, stronger rationalization hamster.
Odds,
but what you have described is witty, non threatening banter. thats not dark game is it?
if you demanded a drink in a threatening way would that have worked?
or did you do so with a wink and a smile?
at any point have you actually been ‘horrible’ to any girls?
@Jess
“You may just find, that acting like a jerk, may cost you a wonderful relationship.”
I don’t have a relationship right now. Haven’t for over a year, despite efforts toward such. Both considerate and jerk-y.
Astonishingly, I seem to be doing just fine. If I fail with a woman (regardless of approach), then I’m back where I started. I didn’t *lose* anything.
Oh, and that sounds like shaming language. In fact, I see a lot of shaming language hurled in this discussion.
Susan asks if guys have to act like jerks to get a relationship.
Men report that this tactic does indeed seem required. And relate their experiences.
Women declare that THEY personally wouldn’t respond to that, and so men shouldn’t act like this. Shame, shame!
Hmmmm, I wonder why that is…
Odds,
I feel like I could have written that. Dead on description of my life right now. Co-sign 100%.
Chris,
Well, I think they are saying it because they don’t believe it. It doesn’t match their reality.
As to shame, well, its never nice to encourage people to be horrible to each other.
There was a previous thread about some girls rejecting guys with public humiliation and degradation. This is just as bad, or even worse, than guys using dark game.
I have never been overtly cruel to a guy and I have always been well treated by guys. I accept that my experiences are not universal, but I do also know they are not unique.
Therefore I postulate that using game, far from improving your chances, might actively hinder them either for LTR’s or ONS’s.
Its a simple as that. But do women and men treat each other badly and inconsistently? Hell yes- and its a darn shame too.
Not at all surprised by this story…
heard it before, and expect to hear it again and again…
Susan to answer your question about do nice guys actually employ strategies for displaying Dark Triad traits with women- ABSOLUTELY! It works!
You can’t get the girl/relationship if you don’t get her attention and spark her attraction
triggers… and I don’t just mean I want her to say ‘I like him’ but I want to be the rule breaker for her…
Unfortunately social sciences are proving what we already know in the trenches; that a measure of arrogant, self assured, self entitled attitude coupled with thrill-seeking and risky behaviors is rocket fuel for the female libido… add some mystery and unavailability into the equation and you have a deadly cocktail… you just don’t get the same results being a decent, straight up guy… it’s sad, but
true… and in any market place it makes sense to go with what works… lowest
cost, marginal investment, highest pay off… negotiate the relationship after you’ve locked her in and she’s proven herself relationship worthy…
My experience is that women value my domestic side/beta traits vastly more when they discover them and I didn’t try to sell or showcase them to her initially…To the point I will actually hide those now… The ultimate of course is a willingness to be loyal, monogamous and committed to a relationship… If this is the post-feminist version of being a sneaky breeder so be it… resisting reality is a sure path to embracing misery… If I have to hide my desires for a relationship to get close to the women I find desirable, that’s just life… but you can be sure I’m going to screen,
filter and test those women and their potential for any commitment prior to doing so…
Signaling openness to a relationship too often is a kiss of death… people don’t value what comes easy… saying that she must ‘earn’ that commitment just doesn’t cut it… People believe what others do, not what they say… showcasing Dark Triad traits
provides an immense fulcrum of believability…
Women control sex…. Men control the commitment… feminism hasn’t changed that… women who offer sex too readily are easy… Men who offer commitment to readily are easy… neither group is valued nor respected by its gender opposite…
FWIW,
I don’t think the typical girl is as spoiled and entitled as the one described here… but I do think the typical girl loses respect for a guy who doesn’t try to sleep with her before showing signs of commitment.
@Chris
Objection. Women point out that bad woman has demonstrated bad character in the past and that good guy should not have been surprised at her behaviour. Moreover, in a logical world, good guy would not punish good women for bad women’s conduct, particularly when he knew that she was trouble from the start. That doesn’t mean that we’re asking good guy to put women on a pedestal.
Negative < —– this is where jaded people live.
Neutral < —— this is rational.
Positive < —– this is stupid.
But yeah, carry on posting your experiences. It’d be interesting to see who can top the flake and the cheat. Can anyone put forward a convincing argument as to why men should act like jerks, please? Because all I can see so far is openly bad women behaving badly and other women responding to cockiness, aloofness and other assorted cues of HV (or lack of).
I agree with Jimmy Hendricks. Per my previous post, I think her reaction was an exit strategy. She really just wanted to sleep with him and be done with it. A lot of the guys here probably could have provided better examples of the real issue that’s being discussed here.
Although it’s a common theme that girls are turning nice guys into jerks by going for jerk guys, it still seems like a lot of guys are also rewarding jerk behaviour in girls. There are a lot of nice guys here complaining that they don’t get noticed, but there are also a lot of nice girls here that are feeling overlooked by the guys.
If a girl finds that *all* the guys she’s getting involved with are jerks, then odds are that she’s fishing in the wrong pond. And I really think that the same thing is true for guys. Especially if guys start adopting the “dump her if she doesn’t put out right away.” Sure a “carousel rider” type might lose respect and leave, but with that approach you’re also going to be filtering out a LOT of the actual “nice girls” who honestly do need to build up a certain level of comfort before having sex.
People in general need to stop rewarding jerk behaviour, and I think both genders are guilty of this to a certain extent. A lot of girls are rewarding cocky/jerky guys, and conversely a lot of guys around the manosphere only ever seem to end up dating evil crazy bitches.
The basic principles of Game make sense, and very few girls want a completely wimpy beta pushover, but I also think that really hardcore “Dark Triad” Game tends to be most effective on a particular (awful bitch) type of girl. I think there really is a happy medium with all of this Game stuff.
I’m speaking in the context of cold approaching.
@ Jess
Like I said…most men are blue pill men who won’t agree with game. I didn’t say my personal bias doesn’t agree with you…I’d love for the world to work that way. It just doesn’t.
It’s not that women HATE men who respect them, per se…it’s just that any man whose strategy is to show overt interest and respect will (on average) burn through his list of contacts LONG before he’s found a suitable mate. Hence, the popularity of MGTOW (pessimist) and cold-approaching (optimist).
@Heidi
You may very well be a woman with her head screwed on straight. I don’t know you personally, so I can’t tell one way or the other. Judging by what women SAY on these forums, you’d think that many woman out there are thoughtful and know how to deal with men. This simply is not generally the case as I’ve experienced it.
I’ve said before that I’ve met wonderful girls who are the exception. But they’re a minority.
C. lector: I’m not blaming anyone. I just think that if you’re going to force yourself to suppress your natural character and tarnish all women in the process, you should probably have a good reason.
This.
No women would admit, or believe, she is doing what she does – ruthlessly dumping in the nastiest way possible anyone who fails to fuck her as fast as possible in the most cruel way possible.
Women want a man who will make them behave well, and to ensure they get such a man, refuse to behave well unless made to do so.
Unfortunately, I’m only an individual with not much power to do anything about it. I’m a great girlfriend to my girlfriends, but they aren’t so great to me. : (
Okay I just stumbled upon this and have a serious question.
I’m a uni guy and got a serious question.
If showing commitement means I lose everything.
Showing no commitement gets me sex.
However I want commitement, what the hell is the game plan for getting what I want?
Ozy,
That Captain Awkward post was good up until the point where she admitted that she lost her virginity to a guy and didn’t tell him about it, and then got dumped. That kind of just reinforces the whole “men don’t want to date virgins” issue with me.
You bang her until she brings it up, then you make her earn it. Or you bang her and bring it up yourself, when you know she´s literally dying for you to get more serious.
I think that we may have a definition conflict here. Just as women call confident men call arrogant, what men are calling jerks women are calling… What do you call someone who teases mercilessly, doesn’t seem to care what women think, and goes for the gusto when he gets the chance?
For what it’s worth, whenever I was in a spell of oneitis I got much more attention than when I wasn’t. I was too focused to care.
“I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on.”
ceer re blue pill etc
I just don’t buy that. these were guys with experience who were either dating or playing the field.
I heard a few say they used to be assholes till they learnt that becoming less of an ass got them tail.
I did hear of some guys that they ‘knew about’ who had ‘legendary pulling power’ but these guys were tall, handsome and extremely quick witted. It wasnt about them being stand offish or horrid- quite the reverse.
And they did all get the idea of a supplicating/weak guy as a turn off. They just said that dark game was extremist and would not work in their environment.
This doesn’t mean your experiences were not real- Im just suggesting the possibility they are not universal and they do not provide evidence for an ideal formula.
@SayWhaat
If you’re still looking to relocate, check out DFW. The sex ratio is better. Real estate didn’t crater quite so badly. The tech sector has recovered from the telecom bubble bursting. There is a large south Asian population. People are tolerant; they might even not hold you being a lawyer against you.
There is a big influx of refugees from the People’s Republic of California.
i thought i was bob….
i remember guys that were ‘a bit too touchy feely’ at uni.
not a good image- creepy, untrustworthy, desperate… its a fine line.
A guy can try it on a few times within his circle- fair play
But if he tries it on with everything in sight it looks desperate and (a uk phrase) sad.
i think people are painting a picture of uniformity which is unlikely to be there.
@jess
Are you sure they don’t operate in a target rich environment? That might affect things.
anonymous,
I think they will suggest you have a ONS and hopefully build an LTR on that.
I have heard good things about speed dating though?
At uni there will loads of girls wanting an LTR. As long as you come off confident and decent, and put yourself in situations where you can meet people e.g. clubs, societies etc then you will likely find that.
I hope some of what the girls here have told you will make you realise that the dark game thing is just one point of view.
Best of luck though…Jx
i thought i was bob,
you mean the guys i spoke to or the ‘touchy’ ones?
Either way, yes, context is everything. I also accept that I’m not in the scene anymore and am in the uk not usa. But I visit the usa a lot and you know, women talk about relationships and sex an awful lot- I don’t think Im completely out of touch at all.
I think confidence always helps but if it goes too far it can quickly turn some girls off (from what I have been told and observed).
FFFFF (or troll) October 22, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Being mean works. NOT TRUE FOR MANY/MOST WOMEN
Being nice doesn’t. OVERLY NICE YES- LOOKS DRIPPY
If her lips are moving, she’s lying. Actions speak louder than words. NICE- NO MISOGYNY HERE AT ALL
If a girl is fat or fugly, They’d still rather be fucked by assholes, I REST MY CASE YOUR HONOUR
Psssstjess
Don’t feed the troll. I would have thought you knew better.
thought i was Bob
…. sorry, of course, don’t know what I was thinking…
To all the men that are reading this, do what you want. One issue with being a man today is that everyone else is always telling us how to live our lives. If you want to be promiscuous then be promiscuous, if being a so called jerk is the easiest way to achieve this goal and you’re prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions that have at it. Go your own way and let other join your path, don’t join the path of others.
To the women that are reading this, this is your fault, all of you. It’s the fault of the women that longed for the so called alpha males just to find out too late that all that glitters isn’t gold and can’t find a “good” man because no man wants dried up used goods. It’s the fault of the women that always wanted good men for not taking the other women to task for their behavior. Dave Chappelle once said that if a man could fuck a woman in a cardboard box, he wouldn’t buy a house. The men you women want are merely going to do what gets them in your pants the fastest, if it’s a “Hello” like it more commonly is today then that’s all you’re going to get. It’s not the end of the world, it’s just the way you wanted the world to be.
Also, to the author of this blog, stop saying “cock carousel.” It’s our word, I already go through this as an african american with caucasians always stealing our words so, please, find another word to signify a woman’s promiscuity.
@jess
I meant your interviewees.
As an academic exercise, I wonder if asshole commitment seeking might be possible. Something along the lines of “You’re easy enough on the eyes, but pretty girls are a dime a dozen. What makes you worth more than evening of my time?”
@Byron
In some perverse way, I actually find it reassuring. Up till now I’ve basically been assuming that guys running asshole game have gone over for good – their goal is to P&D as many women as possible. I figured a minority of guys might learn game to get an LTR. In that way, this realization is hopeful.
On the other hand, I’ve been assuming that most women want relationships, and require only a baseline level of social dominance for attraction. So I’ve advised taking more initiative with men of character.
If it’s true that women like the one in this story are typical, or if men perceive that they are, then the gulf between the sexes has gotten wider. There’s just massive opportunity cost associated with all this communicating at cross purposes.
@Acuzio
OK, here’s an interesting comment – the first? – on the promiscuity question. Overall, I’m hearing that men would rather wonder about why a woman gave in to him fast than whether she is into him.
@BroHamlet
Again, I’m hearing that if she has early sex with you, you feel in control, and if she’s nice and fun you’ll lock it down.
What I am Not hearing is that you will be worrying about who she’s done this with before. Price discrimination is worse than a low price, and a low price is not a deal breaker.
@ Jess
There is a big difference between using charismatic words/mannerisms and genuinely having a woman’s best interests at heart. I’m writing these comments assuming people at least have a basic understanding of game. Let me get you up to speed.
A neg is not an insult, but more of a backhanded compliment. Roissy posits optimal asshole to be an aloof jerk who cares for himself without seeming to think about others. It’s common knowledge that insults and fights get you nowhere.
When you say that these men got more tail by acting “nice” I read that as them acting with more charisma. Depending on the women they’re with, it may indeed get them more notches. Likely, that’s all those men are interested in is the notches… Roughly 10% of men are naturally confident, self assured, and/or assholish. Ramping up the niceness should work well for them.
But for the other 90%… the solution is to add a bit of jerk. Not become a full blown asshole… but add as much charisma and aloofness as they can.
If I say that a man needs to respect women less, I’m talking about normal guys, not complete total assholes. I’m also talking more about the surface behaviors… since that’s what women are rejecting the men on.
@ Susan
Same anon. uni guy from above. Yes I would worry about if she was a hoe or not, if a girl sleeps with me on the first date she gets tossed to the curve preferably before midnight so I can get some good sleep.
Now another question, I got game down, I want a relationship more than casual sex… guesss I have reached that point. Ohh noo’s.
Anyway, here is the problem I keep getting I show any type of commitement I’m burned. I don’t show commitement and I get laid.
When exactly am I supposed to show commitement? And even stranger, when do I get to show off that I’m a caring guy as well?
Note: Former beta turned player, used Deangelo’s stuff.
ozymandias at 69 above:
Ceer: Your statement is that men who are nice NEVER get dates? Are you sure you don’t want to put some caveats on that?
Really, Ozy, what do you get out of these nitpicking, trivial exercises? Suppose Ceer had gone through the IRS-1040-long-form extra work of turgidly putting in all the qualifiers and caveats you might ask for; what the hell difference would it make to anyone’s comprehension or understanding? We all understand the point that’s being made, and the fact that you choose to concentrate on the nitpicking difference between something that’s 100.0% true and only 99.44% true really highlights the fact that you have nothing substantive to say on the main point.
To help you alleviate these pointless outbreaks in the future, here’s a handy decoder ring for you. When a PUA is holding forth on advice/strategy/truth of the world, his shorthand use of “all women are X” doesn’t actually mean he can prove mathematically that every last woman on Earth is, in fact, X. It means, that in a strict cost-benefit analysis the padawan PUA is net advantaged if he can believe and internalize the 100.0% extremal statement, even if it’s not strictly true; the improvement in his results and effectiveness that comes from reflexively assuming AWALT, for something most women actually are like, will outweigh the loss he incurs by mistaking or ignoring the few, statistically negligible, exceptions to the rule.
Does that sound cold to you? To bleat “NAWALT!” in response to this practice is to entirely miss the point, which is that these are the lengths men have been driven to by the situation that women present them with. Really, do you think that that many young men really want to spend their time reading about Dark Game, that they don’t have better things to be doing? If they could have led decent, acceptable lives by being the decent, basic guys that they are, then none of this chatter would be necessary (see Nummm at 18 above). The stampede toward Roissy and Roosh, the sound of a million red pills being washed down apace, should echo loudly enough even at your remote outpost; that you cannot honestly deny that ordinary guys are, in large numbers, finding it impossible to lead an acceptable life in the world that women created. The fact that you still willfully refuse to see this, to see how the collective decisions of women lead to the collective misery of men, gives the complete lie IMO to your pretensions as a “masculist”; it’s waaaay past time that you put up or shut up. (And no, I’m not even going to entertain an argument here about who holds the power and sets the rules for sex at age 20 in America; please, don’t waste your bytes.)
Lastly, even if you think NAWALT stands for “not all women are like that”, it could just as easily stand for “nearly all women are like that”. Keep it in mind.
Emily-
“Although it’s a common theme that girls are turning nice guys into jerks by going for jerk guys, it still seems like a lot of guys are also rewarding jerk behaviour in girls.”
Most of the comments from men above are highlighting that nearly every girl they come across acts like a jerk. No guy above is talking about chasing horrible b#ches on purpose and/or rewarding their behavior.
“There are a lot of nice guys here complaining that they don’t get noticed, but there are also a lot of nice girls here that are feeling overlooked by the guys.”
Nice girls ignored me just as much as any other girl before I turned into a jerk. Nice girls could have had a fantastic boyfriend if they hadn’t been busy pining for the same guys all the other girls wanted.
“Sure a “carousel rider” type might lose respect and leave, but with that approach you’re also going to be filtering out a LOT of the actual “nice girls” who honestly do need to build up a certain level of comfort before having sex.”
How are we to know, in a given circumstance, what kind of girl we’re dealing with? As I’m sure you are aware, most girls can do a dr. jekyll and mr. hyde depending on what side of the bed they got out of in the morning. Due to lack of evidence upon meeting a new girl, we have to be the jerk as that is what has given us success in the past.
“People in general need to stop rewarding jerk behaviour, and I think both genders are guilty of this to a certain extent. A lot of girls are rewarding cocky/jerky guys, and conversely a lot of guys around the manosphere only ever seem to end up dating evil crazy bitches.”
I’ve dated girls of all kinds. I didn’t date any girls until I turned into a jerk. None of them wanted to have anything to do with me.
“The basic principles of Game make sense, and very few girls want a completely wimpy beta pushover, but I also think that really hardcore “Dark Triad” Game tends to be most effective on a particular (awful bitch) type of girl. I think there really is a happy medium with all of this Game stuff.”
Yes, there is and I was never super-asshole. I mixed in a lot of humor and intelligence into the cocky dick stuff.
I genuinely feel you mean well and you seem like a good person. But the reality on the ground is that most men have a choice: Jerk or Loneliness. Caveat being that men who are really good looking, really athletic, wealthy, or some artists can do well with different behaviors.
Susan, you and most of the commenters here missed something important.
HE SHOT HER DOWN FIRST.
No, really. She maneuvers him over to her place, and he didn’t make a move. That screams ”I’m just not that into you”. So when he came back later, he’s insulting her – “you weren’t good enough last week, but you’re good enough now”.
It’s especially bad because they’ve known each other for a little while – this isn’t a second date starting from zero.
So yeah, she shot him down because he wasn’t bold enough to make a move when she was inviting him to do so. And he deserved what he got.
Getting into a relationship is easy for any guy who can get laid. Most young women, according to our hostess here, really are looking for relationships, but feel pressured into having sex before they’ d otherwise choose to, to try to catch a man. So it seems (and my experience mostly matches) that to get a relationship, first, get laid. Treat her well, but don’t be a wimp. Then ask her for another date in the immediate future, and make sure it ends in sex, too. voila - you have a relationship.
Now comes the hard part – figuring out the terms of it – is it exclusive, or not? What if it’s mostly long-distance? Here’s where it helps to know the default assumptions of your (and her) social circle, but you should probably actually talk about this.
The biggest problem young men have in keeping relationships is that if they’re acting alpha-ish to get laid, then beta out the moment they’ve got a “girlfriend”, they’ll lose that girlfriend pretty quickly. One doesn’t have to be a Roissy or Roosh to get laid. One just needs to be self-confident, and unashamed of wanting sex. But a man has to stay that way in the relationship. It’s one thing to “fake it” for the purpose of getting laid, but if one hasn’t internalized some level of being alpha, it won’t last in a relationship, and the relationship won’t last.
It sounds like a Beta adaptation. Some things to think about.
I haven’t read all the comments yet (sorry if I’m repeating), but I wanted to agree and amplify something that Ozy and Heidi said very early on:
Girls, you do not have to abide by the “sex on the 3rd date” rule. In fact, I recommend you do not. Good guys will stick around a lot longer than that – not just losers.
The key to making this happen is two-fold:
1. You have to be worth it.
2. The guy has to be looking for something other than a casual relationship.
Now, if all you’re bringing to the table is sex, you aren’t worth it. If you’re dumb, uninteresting, irritating, and unattractive (not his type, fat, whatever) – you aren’t worth the wait. If you appear untrustworthy or not compatible long-term – you aren’t worth the wait. If you’re sitting around waiting to be rescued, you ain’t worth it. If you date primarily for entertainment…not worth it.
Being worth the wait is a lot of work, so get your shit together.
You’d also better figure out how to spot guys who are open to LTRs. Many good guys go through phases where they simply aren’t after serious relationships. If you get P and D’ed, sometimes it’s because they don’t think you’re good enough to commit to. Sometimes the stage of life the guy is in is a factor- he wouldn’t commit to a woman like you right now, but might in five or ten years.
Don’t blow smoke up your own ass by telling yourself “he just wasn’t ready for anyone”. A dude’s life stage/openess to commitment is one factor – it modifies, but doesn’t entirely exclude. That same “not ready” guy would commit to a Bar Rafaeli lookalike who was trustworthy, madly in love with him, hilarious, fun, selectively chaste, extremely wealthy but with a pathological aversion to pre-nups, and owner of a national chain of liquor stores.
Just as I’m slightly less attractive than a young Marlon Brando clone strumming a guitar while simultaneously rescuing orphans from a burning building and directing his enormous multinational corporation by phone – you are not the aforementioned Bar Rafaeli wealthy liquor store owner.
Act accordingly or pay the price.
If all you’re bringing to the table is your vagina, well – I hope you have fun. Store up a lot of good memories, because you’re gonna need them for company once you hit The Wall.
That’s an uncharacteristically blunt post from me. I’m not being intentionally offensive, I just don’t have time to be super tactful right now.
I’m off to work – everybody be safe.
+1. I have to keep reminding myself not to conflate virginity with my identity, and to move beyond that to find someone I’m compatible with.
Emily October 22, 2011 at 7:25 pm
“There are a lot of nice guys here complaining that they don’t get noticed, but there are also a lot of nice girls here that are feeling overlooked by the guys.”
No, the nice girls are overlooked by the alpha guys, who are for the most part not interested in having a relationship. The nice girls ignore the beta guys, or if the beta guys are lucky enough to have some slight contact, the girls mistreat them to test if they are alpha enough.
You might try and think of your virginity as you think of your hair. You enjoy having a pretty hair and you know is an important aspect of male atraction, but you don’t think long and shiny hair alone is going to get you the man of your dreams. Virginity is the same way a trait (that is mainly good but not always) but not the only reason a man will fall for you, YMMV.
You are welcome. ☻
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If enough, not all, perhaps not even most (though I suspect is it most desirable i.e. non-fat, under age 35) women do this they “make the market” and set the required behavior. Really Ms. Walsh, why the shock. This is EXACTLY what feminists wanted and GOT with the erosion of sexual standards and communal morality setting. Have no restrictions on sexual behavior (particularly by women and Alpha males, no one cares about or wants Beta Males) and this is what you’ll get. Guys wanting to be a-holes just to get a relationship.
But dig further. Marriage for the guy who pretends (constantly) to be an a-hole is pretty much out, because the woman only wants him for the fake, not real persona. Eventually the mask comes off, or slips, and its dump-city in search of a true Alpha A-hole. Women are Alpha A-hole crazed, thinking for the most part (and yes “not all women are like that” but who cares, they don’t make the market) with their little women. If you know what I mean. See Twilight and Pregnant Bella with little A-hole vampire bad boy baby.
Emily — let me explain reality to you. ANY halfway non-Obese youngish (under 35) woman can generate sexual interest by showing up anywhere. For a guy, its a major achievement. Most guys out of college go through long dry spells. Like say, women after age 35. So ANY interest by a breathing, non obese female with a modicum of fertility generates male interest. Wait till you’re forty and totally invisible to any man’s interest. Then you’ll understand.
*Pregnant Bella from Twilight is a favorite female Halloween costume, apparently.
Esau, as I read his statement, it could have read at least three different things. “Assholes get hotter women”, “assholes are less likely to be celibate” and “assholes have more sex partners overall” are different claims and lead to different cost-benefit analyses. You suggest he might have meant a fourth thing, “believing that all women like assholes will get men laid more.” This seems to be very ambiguous writing at the least.
Dogsquat, I definitely agree. How you get a relationship is you bring value to someone else’s life, whether it’s with your scintillating conversation or compatible interests or kindness (or wealth or beauty, I’m not arguing that people aren’t sometimes shallow). If all the value you bring is hot hot sex… well, there aren’t going to be so many people lining up to date you.
DFW = Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex, a metropolitan area in north Texas ?
/ Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms
Do guys employ strategies for displaying Dark Triad traits with all women, or do you try to distinguish?
My brother has all three traits and you would have to see women’s reactions to him to believe them. All women respond to them on some level, even thirty-something evangelical Christian virgins. Yes, even those precious snowflakes who explicitly deny the appeal of the Dark Triad to them; I’ve seen it time and time and time and time again. Therefore, the proper strategy would be to display such traits to all women, then dial back over time. Of course, it’s easier to present a convincing display if you actually have a modicum of one or two.
@ Heidi:
“end up dating or f#%$ing a lot of guys who aren’t as confident as I like”.
Haha isn’t this the whole problem. Dating or f$%#ing? Sounds like the two are independent from one another. A lot of guys who aren’t as confident as I like? Doesn’t sound like you have as high standards for who you sleep with as you claim.
Also, your advice. Yeah guys do this, guys do that. I’ll make about as much effort as I see the girl put in. You don’t go over the top with fancy ideas on a first date. You evaluate the girl, if she seems to be making an effort, then you reward and go up. You sound like everything the type of women we are discussing. An entitled princess.
(Perhaps off topic)
Answer is that man will buy a house because he is freezing in a cardboard box. ☺
That claim may also imply reverse claim that man wouldn’t buy a house if he can’t fuck a woman anyway.
That is question what is your strategy or mode. That is a minimal mode. Another mode is a career mode.
Another answer is that man will buy a house because he want his offspring to survive.
Heidi: “Look, I get that women don’t like the “super” nice guy… But that doesn’t mean they like dicks. We like men to be confident, but not cocky. Self-confident but not arrogant. Assertive but not aggressive. We don’t want you to treat us like shit, but we do want to see that you are confident and in demand. Don’t bow down to us just because we have a vagina and are looking for a relationship. all it makes us think is that you’ll get with ANYONE who wants to be in a relationship. Instead, do things that make us think we’re special because of who we are, and not because of what we have between our legs. THAT kind of nice guy behavior will separate you from all the others.
”
Yeah, how hard can that be?
There is no question that alcohol fuels casual sex while providing plausible deniability.
True, but very difficult to implement at the individual level. It requires being the exception to the rule. What are the chances that the guy that wrote this email will recognize a woman’s giving him a reason to treat her as someone special? He’s got his guard up, with good reason.
Heidi and Jess:
Re your initial comments yesterday, all those things work for a woman only after attraction is generated and established. None of those things work to generate attraction. In fact all of those things (opening doors, ordering a drink for her, cooking for her) are comfort builders, not attraction builders.
And opening a woman’s door is not alpha. It is chivalrous pedestalizing betatude.
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@ Heidi “Instead, do things that make us think we’re special because of who we are, and not because of what we have between our legs. THAT kind of nice guy behavior will separate you from all the others.”
I don’t understand this. Men come here over and over again saying that they did these things, and it did not work. It kills the attraction, assuming the woman was ever attracted to begin with. When we treat you “special”, we’re rewarded with LJBF and “you can buy me drinks all night”. It just doesn’t work.
Heidi, your confusion is that you’re describing the things you want a man to do for you and to you after you are already attracted to him. None of the things you’re talking about (treating her special, being nice) works to build attraction. They work to build comfort.
@doclove
I read You Did This to Me with particular interest. Roosh obviously strikes a chord with many men, and he is a hero of sorts for his Horatio Alger/Hunter Thompson story as applied to the SMP. Is he happy though? Is poon nirvana everything he thought it would be? Does he really look forward to roaming Latin America with a duffel bag full if Cialis one day in old age? If so, that’s great for him. Would that make you happy as well? If so, you’ve got the blueprint.
Deti-
“Heidi, your confusion is that you’re describing the things you want a man to do for you and to you after you are already attracted to him. None of the things you’re talking about (treating her special, being nice) works to build attraction. They work to build comfort.”
This is because women consider men beneath their notice (romantically) until they are attracted to him. So once the women notice “this is an attractive man” then they want to see the courting behaviors. A man deemed unattractive, performing courting behaviors, just becomes an annoyance.
@Odds
I wonder if these women like the contrast of beta and alpha, or if they’d like pure alpha even more. I think the combo might be perfect, at least for women looking for more than sex and disrespectful treatment.
after I’ve slept with her too soon and have lost respect for her. .. I’m also uninterested after her behaviour. ..if a girl is making you wait longer than three dates, it’s likely you are being played….This is why I”m not married.
You are not to blame for the low and declining marriage rate and the vicious-cycle social destruction it has caused
there are loads of girls who like, a slower approach
and deserve the wait ONLY if said girls have ALWAYS proceeded slowly
@Sock!
Great comment, thanks.
There it is again, that male desire to be the one she’ll throw herself at – easy to get for him alone. understandable, but then how do you square it with this:
Can you trust a woman to be easy for you alone?
Yes, my gut is telling me the same thing, and that’s actually a revelation for me.
Never Nice:
“This is because women consider men beneath their notice (romantically) until they are attracted to him. So once the women notice “this is an attractive man” then they want to see the courting behaviors. A man deemed unattractive, performing courting behaviors, just becomes an annoyance.”
Yes.
I continue to be amazed at how many women confuse comfort with attraction. They skip over the attraction part and go right to the comfort building behaviors they really want to see. This is because, I think, women aren’t conscious of what they find attractive. They do not consciously decide a man is attractive. All she knows is that she is attracted to him. And it is the very rare woman who can really articulate what she finds attractive.
This is one reason why women describe the comfort behaviors when asked to describe what they find attractive. Ask a typical woman what she finds attractive in a man, and you hear things like “he is nice, polite, acts like he cares about me, he’s a good conversationalist, makes me feel special, he does little things for me, we have a lot in common, he has a good sense of humor.” Any student of Game can tell you she is describing what makes her comfortable, not what attracts her.
It is as if we need to return to Game/Charisma 101. “Be nice, be yourself” does not build attraction. Again: Be nice, be yourself is NOT attractive.
No one tells young boys and men how to be attractive. It is as if everyone, including parents, teachers, religious leaders and other authority figures simply assume boys and men just know how to be attractive. Hence we are treated to people like Amanda Marcotte spewing things to men such as (paraphrasing here) “the onus is on men not to be creepy”, and other things like “well, if you want women to be attracted to you, then be more attractive.”
Again, male behaviors that women find attractive, (not comfortable, attractive) are confidence, dominance, and displays of power and charisma. And this is why the debate rages, because there are a lot of women who don’t want to admit that Game works and helps men become more attractive, as long as men internalize the behaviors and really become what they project and present.
“Figure out your stats… If you get 10 rejections for every yes, then you need to burn through 10 noes to get your next yes. And that next yes is an opportunity to show off your new confidence skills.
”
I’m second to none in understanding the probabilistic nature of modern mating, but this is another “it shouldn’t be this hard” moment for me. Generating your own leads is hard work, and rejection is disappointing business. Another reason most guys won’t/can’t become players and PUAs – they just can’t take the dozens upon dozens of rejections it takes while honing a new personality.
Yet there the women are telling them to just “keep trying” ’cause you’ll get lucky eventually.
One of the first insights I had into the game community was that they had developed a system to avoid rejection not just by becoming more attractive, but by bailing out of bad prospects. They couldn’t get rejected if they didn’t make a forward move, and the reading of IOIs and compliance testing provided a means for measuring their odds before they made such a move. Saves a lot of opportunity cost.
@Emily
Yes, men who really do want relationships need to be selective about the women they are spending time with. The guy who wrote to me acknowledges this particular girl had behaved this way in the past. Roosh, in his post You Did This to Me must acknowledge that he went out to bars every night picking up strangers. He didn’t exactly try to meet a girl while jogging around the basin or take a cooking class. His specialty is the hardened carousel rider, that’s his niche. That’s a great way to get laid and a poor way to find any kind of companionship.
Being worth the wait is a lot of work, so get your shit together.
Act accordingly or pay the price.
Future man-approval starts with today’s behavior. Be advised. Be wise.
@SayWhaat
I know. It sucks. It will take a while to turn the tide. Let’s keep working on it.
Okaaaay deleting FFFFF commentary now. He’s scaring the horses.
To the premise of the post:
I don’t think all women or most women cling to this these caricatured requirements that men be quasi-sociopathic, strongly sexually forward and conspicuously non-”needy.” However, it’s incredibly common among the entitled-princess set, and they set the pace for the rest of the female cohort. They also tend to be attractive, as their vanity keeps them in shape and well-groomed, which makes their preferences a key part of the female price information.
The example in the post is a majorly entitled woman, not representative of all women, but I’m guessing most young men will get at least one element of her shtick from women with regularity. He could have gamed her wrt the “I’ll let you buy me drinks” thing, but why even bother gaming someone who has that nasty of an attitude, unless you’ve got intel that she’s mind-blowing in the sack?
As to the ancient question of why chicks dig jerks, in the case of educated fit women raised in comfortable lifestyles, having a hard attraction for assholes is like a form of stockholm syndrome. I still don’t really understand it. But men enjoy the company of women, and smart guys will adapt, as we’re seeing already. Girls get more of what they sleep with, and less of what they LJBF.
@i Am Jack’s Relationship
Is this a joke? You own the language? Sorry, dude, language is a living, breathing thing. I use the terms that get my point across in the fastest and most effective way possible. Deal.
I see I’ve inadvertently lured in the Bitter Boys. Was it the anti- feminism post that Neely wrote? I find that whenever I say or do anything that validates males, I get new male haters. I think people are very frightened at the idea of having their pain taken away from them.
@Susan
You might find it interesting that Private Man and Frost both have recent posts that echo your concerns here.
From Private Man: A Dilemma for the Man with Charisma
From Frost: Your Game Depends on What You Want
They both agree that if a man really wants a long-term relationship, Game will probably hurt his chances because it attracts the wrong type of woman. (What if a man has no other options but the wrong type of woman? That’s a more difficult question to answer.)
About the three dates limit and “building comfort in order to have sex”, I would like to recommend the Rollo Tomassi’s post “Wait for it”: http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/wait-for-it/
Comfort comes from familiarity and predictability; all decidedly anti-seductive influences. And while comfort has it’s own merits in interpersonal relationships, it is not the basis for genuine, passionate sexual desire. For people (myself included) involved in a marriage or LTR, it’s serves our long-term best interest to convince ourselves that sex is better when your comfortable with your partner, however, the reality of it sings a different tune. Here’s an easy illustration: As reported by both men and women alike, which of these circumstances provokes the most intense, memorable sexual experiences ? When a couple plans and arranges a romantic “date night” to ‘keep it fresh’ and reconnect? Or is it the ‘make-up sex’ after a horrible breakup, or narrowly averted breakup, where long dormant competition anxiety is brought back into being a very real possibility again? If you said the breakup, you’re correct! One scenario is comfortable, the other uncomfortable. One has the element of predictable certainty, the other is chaotic and uncertain, however in both situations there is definitely a working mutually connective rapport operating.
Susan,
“Roosh, in his post You Did This to Me must acknowledge that he went out to bars every night picking up strangers. He didn’t exactly try to meet a girl while jogging around the basin or take a cooking class. His specialty is the hardened carousel rider, that’s his niche. That’s a great way to get laid and a poor way to find any kind of companionship.”
Roosh also just wrote a book about picking up chicks in bookstores, coffee shops, grocery stores and on the street, in many cases basing his openers on a woman’s choice of book or foodstuff.
Roissy and Roosh are of the school that “women are women,” the girls you meet at the bookstore are the same ones you’ll see in the club that night. Roissy wrote an early post called “there’s no such thing as a bar girl” where he outlined that the women he was meeting in DC bars were attorneys, doctors and other serious white-collar professionals who were out to unwind.
I think the idea has some merit. I have written about my long lust for intelligent women and finding that despite their protests many of them didn’t want to be “appreciated” for it, nor did they really appreciate it in men. They wanted the same primary attractors as all the other girls; if a guy had those, maybe his brain would give him some extra points. I realize way too late that I would have had a lot more luck if I pretended they were dumb chicks.
“I thin people are very frightened at the idea of having their pain taken away from them.”
Reminds me of a first-world problem: “I didn’t have a shitty childhood so I can’t turn my pain into art.”
“Is this a joke? You own the language?”
Maybe he’s French.
Spain also presumes to own its language.
Those actions that guys show me (the genuine behavior that shows they know me) is always rewarded in the same way. It’s not entitled princess bullshit, it’s how I expect to treat others as well. Relationships and communication go both ways. Constantly expecting the man to do all the work is unfair and useless. It’s not fun because there isn’t an exchange of ideas.
I reeeeally want to understand where this whole “game” is coming from. Really. I have a genuine interest in understanding relationships. But, in all honesty, I can only relate to my groups of friends… And I just don’t see this behavior. I see friends (myself included) that are, from the outset, attracted to nice, dorky guys. Typical beta, I suppose? But these are the guys we’ve all been told will respect and honor us in exchange for our commitment to respect and honor them.
I’m looking to myself… The last few guys ie been attracted to (and dated), were a software engineer (a couple, actually), a math teacher, a writer, and an accountant. They’re the guys who don’t walk into a room and instantly have women gravitate towards them… That charm of being nerdy is quite compelling. I’m not the only one who feels this way. I know, you’re working on the aggregate, NAWALT, and so on… But it seems like there’s a happy medium somewhere between the “game” and beig an honest, normal human that trusts and respects communication between the two genders.
I don’t have friends that have wanted for dates, but if I did, I’d say to avoid (like the plague) any guy who acts like an asshole. And any of my friends who treated their respective partners like an asshole would also get a talking to from our group.
I guess it just amazes me that people (guys, in particular) feel like this game playing is a necessary reality. I’m not trying to discount your own experiences… Obviously sites like Susan’s wouldn’t exist if it didn’t. I guess I’m just (serious, no snark involved) trying to understand it since this isn’t my reality at all.
Back on point, I also forgot to say this…
If you’re looking for a relationship, and you’re attracting women via this asshole method… YOU’RE ATTRACTING THE WRONG WOMEN. All this tells me is that in time, you’ll be back here complaining that your wife or girlfriend is a bitch and that you can’t seem to understand how to communicate with her.
If your argument is that you have no other way to attract women, stop and look around. There are women (myself included) sitting in the corner of the coffee shop thinking how insanely hot it is that you’re reading Guns, Germs, and Steel (true story), and we want to get to know you. I bet you anything, just like you think women are ignoring you, you’re ignoring women.
And like I said before, it’s a numbers game. Run some stats… If it takes getting your number out there 15 times to get a date… Well, you better hurry up and get those 14 noes so you can move on to the next yes.
Lastly, for all that is holy, please stop indulging game players! These women who want you to act like an asshole? If everyone stops dating them, the problem SHOULD resolve itself, no?
@ Heidi: “I reeeeally want to understand where this whole “game” is coming from. Really. I have a genuine interest in understanding relationships. But, in all honesty, I can only relate to my groups of friends… And I just don’t see this behavior. I see friends (myself included) that are, from the outset, attracted to nice, dorky guys. Typical beta, I suppose? But these are the guys we’ve all been told will respect and honor us in exchange for our commitment to respect and honor them.”
I would have loved to have lived in your reality 25 years ago. As I’ve said before, and I feel I’m repeating myself: I tried these “nice”, honest behaviors. I tried being honest, laying my cards out on the table, and doing “nice” things. What it got me was women bolting in the other direction. Again, I found out that being “nice” just didn’t work. And I’m not alone in that experience.
What I find interesting about you personally, Heidi, is that you say you’re attracted to these nerdy, dorky guys. But in my experience these are quintessential beta providers. These are exactly the men drawn to LTRs and marriage; but you say you don’t want marriage and kids. How does this work out? Do you just break it off with them when you’re done? Do they break it off with you? What do you want from them and what do they give you? What do they get from you? I’m genuinely interested. No snark or judgment; I’m just fascinated. As a bachelor I would have loved to have found a woman like you. I looked for women like you high and low, far and wide, and could find nary a one.
@Anthony
I wondered about this too, but discounted it because he said she’s done this before, and because her remark about drinks was bratty. However, I agree that there is an alternative explanation. They slept in the same bed and he stopped after one good night kiss. Most women would view this as getting shot down. From then on she felt like he had all the hand. The birthday party invitation was a rather bad test of his interest. His one word answer of no was deeply humiliating.
The odds of this being the case? Like I said, it’s not where I’d put my money, but they’re not insignificant either.
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