Guys Acting Like Jerks to Get a Relationship?

Wow, the “woman” in that letter seems to have really internalized the “alpha/beta” thing. If you’re an alpha, you demand sex immediately. If you don’t, you’re a beta, and all you’re good for is giving them tribute through your wallet. What women have done to themselves is truly amazing.

This sounds like a great time to be an STD.

I find it interesting reading the stories of some of the men at HUS, something that  keeps cropping up repeatedly is that shared experience, the ‘taking of the red pill’ – good men slowly, painfully waking up to the fact that the Sexual MarketPlace simply isn’t what they’ve been raised to think it is. Men who want to be honest & open with the women that they meet, & then learning that’s simply not what those women want.  That being a nice guy isn’t enough. They had to learn dishonesty, just to get by, to cover up their true feelings – both their sexual desires & their deeper emotions too – or else be thought weak & needy. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to us then, that men are using asshole game to make whatever kind of connection to the opposite sex they can. But it is a pity.

The only answer I can presently see is for women en masse to change their expectations & behaviour towards men. I don’t know if that’s even possible, whether it’s too hardwired in there or not, but I don’t see any alternative to women at large treating men a lot better than they have been doing.

Heidi,

I could not agree more- very well put.

I do actually know women who are like the one described but I would guess they are a ‘significant minority’ as opposed to a majority.

Maybe she was trying to do ‘girl game’ and was unskilled or maybe she was simply a jerk.

If its the latter he got a lucky escape- you have to kiss few frogesses I guess…..

Dude, you dodged a fucking bullet not dating that chick. Can you imagine what a relationship would be like with her? Let her date an asshole; seems to me water finds its own level.

Also, as Hooking Up Smart’s resident Giant-ass Slut, I’d like to point out that “have to have sex by date three” is such a colossally fucking stupid idea I don’t have any fucking words for it. Speaking for myself, I want to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with me, not someone who’s strategizing to try to find the best option to get me into a relationship and to seem sexual but not slutty. If someone actually likes you, they’ll wait until you actively desire sex with them; if they don’t, they’re an asshole.

I mean, obviously, you should talk about it. Open and honest communication is a good thing. But don’t ever apologize for not wanting sex or for needing longer to feel comfortable having sex with someone. That’s fine and wonderful!

Virgins of HUS, I know it’s hard when you’re part of a sexual minority. (Says the poly person.) But don’t have sex until you find someone who you won’t regret having sex for the first time with– and that usually means someone who shares your values and places the same importance you do on sex. Captain Awkward has some really good advice about dating as a virgin.

Also, maybe I’m odd, but it seems to me if you stick to the three-date rule you’ll end up racking up a lot of partners anyway. If I only had sex with people who had three dates with me, I’d have had five partners over the last two years!

<i>Men who want to be honest & open with the women that they meet, & then learning that’s simply not what those women want.  That being a nice guy isn’t enough. They had to learn dishonesty, just to get by, to cover up their true feelings – both their sexual desires & their deeper emotions too – or else be thought weak & needy.</i>

Women (historically) never wanted honesty and openness.  The notion that they did came along when feminists tried to introduce equality to relationships.

Men shouldn’t be honest and open with women.  Women can offer warmth, admiration, sex, companionship, food, and children.  Men who need emotional support can get a therapist or join a Victorian-era men’s club.

Chris: Ugh, I hate drinking.

Ted: If she cheats with you, she’ll cheat on you. When you come back in six months complaining about how women are all cheating whores, I will have very little sympathy.

“Well, you sorta did by implying that he is shallow, immature and chases shiny, STD-ridden rocks at the expense of good girls/future wife.”

Sometimes a spade is a spade.

Heidi-

“Dating would probably be a lot easier if EVERYONE stopped playing these stupid games.”

Men didn’t start this war. But now that we’re fighting it, we’re not going to stop until we’re either dead or the victor.

“If you let her treat you like shite (“I’ll LET you buy ME drinks”) and then reward her behavior with sexual gratitude, all you’re doing is reassuring her that she can get away of this terrible behavior. You are doing no one a favor, male or female.”

I think it’s pretty clear the men here are not putting up with shite. I have flat-out left girls alone in a bar with no ride home after over-the-top bitchy behavior.

“Look, I get that women don’t like the “super” nice guy… But that doesn’t mean they like dicks. We like men to be confident, but not cocky. Self-confident but not arrogant. Assertive but not aggressive.”

Just because you are a woman doesn’t mean you know what women are attracted to. When I was dating I was not a super-asshole, but I was very cocky, teasing, and arrogant. I basically make a big joke of everything the woman did, like she was a bratty little sister.

“We don’t want you to treat us like shit, but we do want to see that you are confident and in demand.”

Well, hate to break it to you, but in order to be in demand, average men have to act like cocky and arrogant jerks. Really good looking or rich men can take other approaches and get by with it. Us everyday blokes have to be dicks.

“Don’t bow down to us just because we have a vagina and are looking for a relationship. all it makes us think is that you’ll get with ANYONE who wants to be in a relationship.”

Again, nobody here is advocating pussy worship. Quite the opposite.

“Instead, do things that make us think we’re special because of who we are, and not because of what we have between our legs. THAT kind of nice guy behavior will separate you from all the others. :)”

Tell that to the millions upon millions upon millions of men who experienced nothing but frustration behaving that way.

If women want to be treated like they are special, give guys a reason to do so. If women don’t want to be treated like vaginas, stop sleeping with the guys who do treat you like vaginas.

Not rocket science.

Will you agree to some extent that even with college education women are making some very poor choices in life?

@ Susan

You may want to read Roosh’s  latest 2 articles. They’re very similar to this one. The commentaries are long especially for the first link. My commentaries are made on 79,104,106,107,108,109,112,144,153,154,156,160 and 161 on the first link. My commentaries are made on 39,40 and 41 for the second link.

Here are the links.

http://www.rooshv.com/you-did-this-to-me#comments

http://www.rooshv.com/the-manosphere-for-dummies#comments

Odds,

but what you have described is witty, non threatening banter. thats not dark game is it?

if you demanded a drink in a threatening way would that have worked?

or did you do so with a wink and a smile?

at any point have you actually been ‘horrible’ to any girls?

Odds,

I feel like I could have written that. Dead on description of my life right now. Co-sign 100%.

Not at all surprised by this story…
heard it before, and expect to hear it again and again…

Susan to answer your question about do nice guys actually employ strategies for displaying Dark Triad traits with women- ABSOLUTELY!  It works!

You can’t get the girl/relationship if you don’t get her attention and spark her attraction
triggers…  and I don’t just mean I want her to say ‘I like him’ but I want to be the rule breaker for her…

Unfortunately social sciences are proving what we already know in the trenches; that a measure of arrogant, self assured, self entitled attitude coupled with thrill-seeking and risky behaviors is rocket fuel for the female libido…  add some mystery and unavailability into the equation and you have  a deadly cocktail…  you just don’t get the same results being a decent, straight up guy…  it’s sad, but
true… and in any market place it makes sense to go with what works… lowest
cost, marginal investment, highest pay off… negotiate the relationship after you’ve locked her in and she’s proven herself relationship worthy…

My experience is that women value my domestic side/beta traits vastly more when they discover them and I didn’t try to sell or showcase them to her initially…To the point I will actually hide those now…  The ultimate of course is a willingness to be loyal, monogamous and committed to a relationship…  If this is the post-feminist version of being a sneaky breeder so be it… resisting reality is a sure path to embracing misery…  If I have to hide my desires for a relationship to get close to the women I find desirable, that’s just life…  but you can be sure I’m going to screen,
filter and test those women and their potential for any commitment prior to doing so…

Signaling openness to a relationship too often is a kiss of death…  people don’t value what comes easy… saying that she must ‘earn’ that commitment just doesn’t cut it…  People believe what others do, not what they say…  showcasing Dark Triad traits
provides an immense fulcrum of believability…

Women control sex…. Men control the commitment… feminism hasn’t changed that…  women who offer sex too readily are easy…  Men who offer commitment to readily are easy… neither group is valued nor respected by its gender opposite…

@Chris

Men report that this tactic does indeed seem required. And relate their experiences.
Women declare that THEY personally wouldn’t respond to that, and so men shouldn’t act like this. Shame, shame!

Objection. Women point out that bad woman has demonstrated bad character in the past and that good guy should not have been surprised at her behaviour. Moreover, in a logical world, good guy would not punish good women for bad women’s conduct, particularly when he knew that she was trouble from the start. That doesn’t mean that we’re asking good guy to put women on a pedestal.

Negative < —– this is where jaded people live.
Neutral < —— this is rational.
Positive < —– this is stupid.

But yeah, carry on posting your experiences. It’d be interesting to see who can top the flake and the cheat. Can anyone put forward a convincing argument as to why men should act like jerks, please? Because all I can see so far is openly bad women behaving badly and other women responding to cockiness, aloofness and other assorted cues of HV (or lack of).

Although it’s a common theme that girls are turning nice guys into jerks by going for jerk guys, it still seems like a lot of guys are also rewarding jerk behaviour in girls.  There are a lot of nice guys here complaining that they don’t get noticed, but there are also a lot of nice girls here that are feeling overlooked by the guys.

If a girl finds that *all* the guys she’s getting involved with are jerks, then odds are that she’s fishing in the wrong pond.  And I really think that the same thing is true for guys.  Especially if guys start adopting the “dump her if she doesn’t put out right away.”  Sure a “carousel rider” type might lose respect and leave, but with that approach you’re also going to be filtering out a LOT of the actual “nice girls” who honestly do need to build up a certain level of comfort before having sex.

People in general need to stop rewarding jerk behaviour, and I think both genders are guilty of this  to a certain extent.  A lot of girls are rewarding cocky/jerky guys, and conversely a lot of guys around the manosphere only ever seem to end up dating evil crazy bitches.

The basic principles of Game make sense, and very few girls want a completely wimpy beta pushover, but I also think that really hardcore “Dark Triad” Game tends to be most effective on a particular (awful bitch) type of girl.  I think there really is a happy medium with all of this Game stuff.

Ozy,

That Captain Awkward post was good up until the point where she admitted that she lost her virginity to a guy and didn’t tell him about it, and then got dumped. That kind of just reinforces the whole “men don’t want to date virgins” issue with me.

I think that we may have a definition conflict here. Just as women call confident men call arrogant, what men are calling jerks women are calling… What do you call someone who teases mercilessly, doesn’t seem to care what women think, and goes for the gusto when he gets the chance?

For what it’s worth, whenever I was in a spell of oneitis I got much more attention than when I wasn’t. I was too focused to care.

“I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on.”

@SayWhaat

If you’re still looking to relocate, check out DFW. The sex ratio is better. Real estate didn’t crater quite so badly. The tech sector has recovered from the telecom bubble bursting. There is a large south Asian population. People are tolerant; they might even not hold you being a lawyer against you.

There is a big influx of refugees from the People’s Republic of California.

@jess

Are you sure they don’t operate in a target rich environment? That might affect things.

i thought i was bob,

you mean the guys i spoke to or the ‘touchy’ ones?

Either way, yes, context is everything. I also accept that I’m not in the scene anymore and am in the uk not usa. But I visit the usa a lot and you know, women talk about relationships and sex an awful lot- I don’t think Im completely out of touch at all.

I think confidence always helps but if it goes too far it can quickly turn some girls off (from what I have been told and observed).

Psssstjess

Don’t feed the troll. I would have thought you knew better.

To all the men that are reading this, do what you want.  One issue with being a man today is that everyone else is always telling us how to live our lives.  If you want to be promiscuous then be promiscuous, if being a so called jerk is the easiest way to achieve this goal and you’re prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions that have at it.  Go your own way and let other join your path, don’t join the path of others.

To the women that are reading this, this is your fault, all of you.  It’s the fault of the women that longed for the so called alpha males just to find out too late that all that glitters isn’t gold and can’t find a “good” man because no man wants dried up used goods.  It’s the fault of the women that always wanted good men for not taking the other women to task for their behavior.  Dave Chappelle once said that if a man could fuck a woman in a cardboard box, he wouldn’t buy a house.  The men you women want are merely going to do what gets them in your pants the fastest, if it’s a “Hello” like it more commonly is today then that’s all you’re going to get.  It’s not the end of the world, it’s just the way you wanted the world to be.

Also, to the author of this blog, stop saying “cock carousel.”  It’s our word, I already go through this as an african american with caucasians always stealing our words so, please, find another word to signify a woman’s promiscuity.

Again, I’m hearing that if she has early sex with you, you feel in control, and if she’s nice and fun you’ll lock it down.

What I am Not hearing is that you will be worrying about who she’s done this with before. Price discrimination is worse than a low price, and a low price is not a deal breaker.

It sounds like a Beta adaptation. Some things to think about.

1. How many guys work this way?
2. How does the girl tell the difference between a stud who won’t call her and a guy who works this way?
3. How many guys remain clueless on the sidelines?
4. How many guys given a clue still can’t make this work?

+1. I have to keep reminding myself not to conflate virginity with my identity, and to move beyond that to find someone I’m compatible with.

You might try and think of your virginity as you think of your hair. You enjoy having a pretty hair and you know is an important aspect of male atraction, but you don’t think long and shiny hair alone is going to get you the man of your dreams. Virginity is the same way a trait (that is mainly good but not always) but not the only reason a man will fall for you, YMMV.

If enough, not all, perhaps not even most (though I suspect is it most desirable i.e. non-fat, under age 35) women do this they “make the market” and set the required behavior. Really Ms. Walsh, why the shock. This is EXACTLY what feminists wanted and GOT with the erosion of sexual standards and communal morality setting. Have no restrictions on sexual behavior (particularly by women and Alpha males, no one cares about or wants Beta Males) and this is what you’ll get. Guys wanting to be a-holes just to get a relationship.

But dig further. Marriage for the guy who pretends (constantly) to be an a-hole is pretty much out, because the woman only wants him for the fake, not real persona. Eventually the mask comes off, or slips, and its dump-city in search of a true Alpha A-hole. Women are Alpha A-hole crazed, thinking for the most part (and yes “not all women are like that” but who cares, they don’t make the market) with their little women. If you know what I mean. See Twilight and Pregnant Bella with little A-hole vampire bad boy baby.

Emily — let me explain reality to you. ANY halfway non-Obese youngish (under 35) woman can generate sexual interest by showing up anywhere. For a guy, its a major achievement. Most guys out of college go through long dry spells. Like say, women after age 35. So ANY interest by a breathing, non obese female with a modicum of fertility generates male interest. Wait till you’re forty and totally invisible to any man’s interest. Then you’ll understand.

*Pregnant Bella from Twilight is a favorite female Halloween costume, apparently.

@Susan

You might find it interesting that Private Man and Frost both have recent posts that echo your concerns here.

From Private Man: A Dilemma for the Man with Charisma

From Frost: Your Game Depends on What You Want

They both agree that if a man really wants a long-term relationship, Game will probably hurt his chances because it attracts the wrong type of woman. (What if a man has no other options but the wrong type of woman? That’s a more difficult question to answer.)

“Is this a joke? You own the language?”

Maybe he’s French.

Spain also presumes to own its language.

Back on point, I also forgot to say this…

If you’re looking for a relationship, and you’re attracting women via this asshole method… YOU’RE ATTRACTING THE WRONG WOMEN. All this tells me is that in time, you’ll be back here complaining that your wife or girlfriend is a bitch and that you can’t seem to understand how to communicate with her.

If your argument is that you have no other way to attract women, stop and look around. There are women (myself included) sitting in the corner of the coffee shop thinking how insanely hot it is that you’re reading Guns, Germs, and Steel (true story), and we want to get to know you. I bet you anything, just like you think women are ignoring you, you’re ignoring women.

And like I said before, it’s a numbers game. Run some stats… If it takes getting your number out there 15 times to get a date… Well, you better hurry up and get those 14 noes so you can move on to the next yes.

Lastly, for all that is holy, please stop indulging game players! These women who want you to act like an asshole? If everyone stops dating them, the problem SHOULD resolve itself, no?

Heidi, you are confusing “game-playing” with Game (e.,g Charisma) which encompasses both game playing (for the harsh, jaded types) and decent straight-shooting (for the more honest types).

The fact that you don’t think it’s necessary is because you’re female and don’t know what it’s like to be an unattractive guy. To you, all guys are attractive because the rest are invisible. So when you talk about software engineers, you’re STILL talking about the guys who have a decent level of Game because you see them and they exist. Yeah, they are upper-beta types.

I mean, bravo for you for getting a clue and avoiding the total assholes, but it doesn’t invalidate the point that most guys really need to shuck off their anti-Game in order to interact with women.

It’s almost certain all of those guys went through a painful larval-stage of clingy lower-betaness, at which point, those same guys were invisible to you. And none of those guys will admit it to you – this explains the Jess “I know lots of guys and they all disagree” effect where the reality is most guys don’t talk about this stuff with anyone, at all.

One final thought. “Acting like a jerk” isn’t the same thing as “being a jerk”. To a guy who’s grown up in the beta mindset for 20 years, being assertive, not pedestalizing women, being direct, sticking up for what you want, *IS* BEING A JERK because that’s what jerks to *happen* do. Yes, from your perspective it isn’t, but you weren’t raised in captivity like a beta. It takes a great deal of psychological change to even get this far.

This is why I do not worry about practical advice to men to “be an asshole”: they simply won’t get there. Our values and personalities are baked in quite early in childhood. I think it’s very rare for men to make a complete 180-degree personality change. Despite what the worst game opponents (and adherents) claim, your average spineless beta is *NOT* going to turn into a dark gamer, leaving behind a trail of twisted wreckage of psychologically women. Personality change is WICKED hard.

Instead, the few guys who take the “be an asshole” idea are most likely to end up like Jesus Mahoney: modest success, great sadness that it worked, but *won’t* have the heart to become a monster.

I don’t think the typical girl is as spoiled and entitled as the one described here… but I do think the typical girl loses respect for a guy who doesn’t try to sleep with her before showing signs of commitment.

“Yes, my gut is telling me the same thing, and that’s actually a revelation for me.”

The traditional market was women offering sex for commitment, and men commitment for sex.

With the advent of the pill, the cost of sex was radically reduced for women (though, as it turns out, we’re discovering not as much as was once thought – this blog is part of the consequent market correction), and so the market became flooded with women offering easy sex (sluts).

Likewise, the move from marriage to LTR as the female ideal drastically lessened the cost of commitment for men (though, again, we’re now discovering the hidden costs), so the market was flooded with men offering easy commitment to women (chumps).

Women are screening out the chumps much as men screen out the sluts, although some men will p&d the slut and some women will string along the chump(s) for easy validation. The Ro’s are shaming the chumps much as Susan strives to shame the sluts – so they’ll quit letting themselves get used and so the market can clear.

The confusion/frustration for socially savvy men seeking an eventual mate, is that the most appealing women for many of us (the Kate Bolicks) are so clumsy in their screening. A date invitation is not in fact an expression of commitment, nor is everyday decency (light triad behavior), but women who spent their formative years focusing on careers/stringing along chumps instead of developing their own social savvy are often unable to draw such not-so-fine distinctions.

My comment # 153 was directed at Heidi…forgot to address..

…confusion/frustration for socially savvy men

…women who spent their formative years focusing on careers/stringing along chumps 

Why any man in a vast world with endless females options even thinks about considering playing in this psychologically [and physically] traumatic market is a wonder that really gets heads scratching in the “global south.”

I really feel like distinguishing between a “jerk” and someone who pushes for sex. He should be sexually attracted to you if a guy was sleeping in bed WITH ME I would assume he’s thinking of a way to make sex happen. I have never been out with a guy who hasn’t pushed for sex in a situation like that – that does not mean I’ve only dated assholes. Men usually imagines a woman naked from the time they see her, if she’s in bed with you I’d imagine hormones are running while. If you are even contemplating whether to make a move or whatever, I’d say you’re not attracted enough.I know some may have opinions on that (and I am NOT agreeing with the woman this man was out with, as her texts were pathetic), but I much see this as a “grow some balls” situation.

Girls can complain men don’t give enough attention or don’t call back or that they only et booty calls. If you don’t even get the sexual attention, well, give it up.

*Hormones are running WILD obviously

One of the first insights I had into the game community was that they had developed a system to avoid rejection not just by becoming more attractive, but by bailing out of bad prospects. They couldn’t get rejected if they didn’t make a forward move, and the reading of IOIs and compliance testing provided a means for measuring their odds before they made such a move. Saves a lot of opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost is the key.  It is one of the reasons Asshole Game works so well.  Assholes disqualify women immediately.  Thus saving them literal months wasted every single time.  And women, all the shaming in the world isn’t going to work when the assholes are dating 9s and 10s while the nice, respectful, confident guys can’t manage to get the number of a 5 or get a date after six months of trying to build rapport.

One of my best friends got married recently.  He’s over 40 and is a tall, handsome lawyer from a wealthy family.  He’s also the quintessential nice guy.  I can’t tell you how many times he missed out because he was being kind, patient, respectful, and nice, always waiting for the right moment to make The Move while the assholes swooped in without hesitation and nailed the woman in whom he was interested.  He finally married a very intelligent woman from Brazil….

@Susan,

“Can you trust a woman to be easy for you alone?”

Does it really matter if she a legitimate catch?  Living without double standards sucks
sometimes…  so does holding a mirror up to your own reflection and taking a good look.  I’m a sexual being, with sexual needs and abilities to actualize those.  Those abilities have provided me with the opportunity to explore a myriad of experiences and to develop preferences and standards of acceptance that preclude many a ‘nice girl’…

Ultimately I want a woman who is going to inspire me and be an equal partner…  as such she is more than likely going to have a sexual history similar towards mine…  resisting that reality doesn’t bring me any measure of peace…  but exploring what opportunities exist if I drop that criteria does…  and to be honest it’s rather liberating…  …it’s not about being easy… it’s about who you’re being easy with…I’m vastly more interested in who someone is, than who they were with…

she is more than likely going to have a sexual history similar towards mine

Is that how it is in America?  Who knew…

Just another man confirming that, unless I’m a jerk, girls won’t pay attention.

It’s only through not giving a shit and playing emotional games with women that any of them respond with anything.

It’s not a small minority. It’s the majority.

Women want to be treated like shit.

Ben,

“Reasons vary, a few examples are “I’m too busy for that kind of thing right now”, or “It just feels like this is too big of a deal”, even “That seems so dorky”.”

Also, “you’re too good for me.”

This has been my experience as well, although while running into this consistently with professional women (25-37), I’ve had several enjoyable relationships with lower status, but very conventionally attractive, women.The experience gap just ended up being too wide.

Since I’ve learned game, I’m able to notice that many of the “too busy” professional women are in fact giving me IOI’s, but I don’t think they are ultimately looking to land a man at all. They prefer that both parties remain at sea indefinitely, and will screen out men who show signs of conventional expectations.

I get the sense (second hand) that this sentiment is even stronger among younger women and the higher one goes on the options scale, preventing the assortive mating market from clearing as well as it has in the past all the way down.

Never Nice,

Just because you are a woman doesn’t mean you know what women are attracted to.

What about men like Roissy and in the male blogsphere who think their experts in the workings of men (and women) when it comes to what’s attraction?

At this point I have completely given up on women, because it is too stressful for me to go against my natural wants and needs (to be caring and affectionate) just so I can get sex. It’s not worth it.

Exactly, it’s not.  I read about all these men who practice the arts of the Dark Triad and a**holery, who turn themselves into these jerks, and I ask “Really, is sex worth all this?”

Heidi,

Look, I get that women don’t like the “super” nice guy… But that doesn’t mean they like dicks. We like men to be confident, but not cocky. Self-confident but not arrogant. Assertive but not aggressive. We don’t want you to treat us like shit, but we do want to see that you are confident and in demand. Don’t bow down to us just because we have a vagina and are looking for a relationship.

THANK YOU.  All alpha behavior isn’t negative.  I would say one doesn’t have to be a bonafide jerk to be an alpha.  And there’s nothing wrong with being cocky and teasing either, maybe a little arrogant too.  But to act like a total a** just to get some booty, it’s not worth it.  It’s like kids who behave in the lowest common denominator just for poularity.  But hey I’m a chick so…..

Assertive. Nothing is more annoying than doing the whole “where do YOU want to go?” thing for dinner. Bah. Plan, gentlemen! Take action! And when she gets in the car, show her you were listening… “Hey, you mentioned your vacation to Australia… If you have time, after dinner I’d love to take you out to the museum… They’re playing a movie about the great barrier reef. Interested?” Now you’ve also showed her you’re able to pay attention!

UGH THANK YOU!  I adore my Dad but sometimes I just want to tell him, “Make the decision!  My Mom is pretty much leaving it up to you.”.

@ Heidi

If you really want to understand the majority of what we’re talking about…read the books:

Bang By Roosh V,  Day Bang By Roosh V,  and Married Man Sex Life By Athol Kay

Then read the blogs:

Dalrock, Married Man Sex Life, Chateau Heartiste, Badger Hut, and RooshV.com

That should help you get up to speed.

Ozy,

“Now, how do men get the idea that assertive, direct, going-for-what-he-wants, not-pedestalizing-women men are assholes and how can we get rid of that idea?”

Your hypothesis is that men are mislabeling confidence as asshole behavior. I want you to consider an alternate hypothesis: that these men really are assholes, and that women are mislabeling asshole behavior as benign confidence.

I came to this idea from talking to lots of women who were dating men that I, and other guys, identified as assholes – exhibiting sociopathy, narcissism, AMOGing and other forms of unnecessary relational aggression against those around them (particularly guys). Guys are good at knowing the true character of other guys, it’s a baked-in self-preservation instinct. I ask the chick what she’s doing with such an asshole, and she’d coo “oh he’s not an asshole, he’s just really confident.”

Women are the ones who, for me, redefined a guy I consider a true asshole to be “assertive/direct/etc.” It’s like they refused to admit that the distasteful parts of his behavior existed and were what they were actually attracted to, or thought they could knead that side out of him while maintaining the rest of his traits. Hamsters on parade.

I wanted to believe this for a long time, that it was just the swagger the girls liked, so if I could cop the assertive, self-absorbed shtick without being a true asshole I could get the best of both worlds. That has been a mixed but mostly unsuccessful strategy, partly because if you’re going up against guys who will do the full asshole routine, holding part of yourself back is unilateral disarmament

It sets up a big paradox for a dude – to get female attention I have to act like an asshole, but I don’t really want to invest in a woman who needs a guy to be an asshole for her to be attracted to him, but I can’t get women attracted to me without acting like an asshole…and around in a circle we go.

Are there exceptions? Sure, but by definition playing for the exceptions is a low-expectation strategy.

It’s really a jungle out there. I’m glad there are beta fetishists out there like Ozy and Heidi, but honestly you girls are rarities, and you don’t exactly advertise where you go and what you do so the right guys could get in front of you. Reasonably attractive women will never understand, until they hit the middle-age wall, what the sexual invisibility desert is like for young men, and how much disinformation they’ll get. Even for men with the classic attraction markers – height, good looks, established career – it’s totally hit or miss whether he’ll be successful with women.

Badger,

You got a point there. If you put the assertive/bold/manly and the jerk/nasty/darktriads to compete for the same women, the darktriads gets more women.

But not only gets more women, he gets more public acceptance.

Why? Id say it talks about something else. The guy who is all the things manly but is also a GOOD man, comes of ass righteous, living by a code, doing things right and balanced, is by comparison less dangerous, more stiff than the dark triads. He also calls for direct comparison and echo against the crowd.

What people, in general, dream about, is to be able to indulge their very own whims and exploit and get their way. People dream about letting their own wild side out. They dont dream about managing their own wild and trascending and doing hard work. In short, the darktriads guy resonates with the crowd better.

You see that all the time in show business. The icons out there, you expect them to go crazy with drugs and do all kind of antisocial stuff. They get to do what you cant. In comparison, the rightful ones are boring. Like. Boooooring.

So strong/manly/decent trumps over the nice chump, but jerk asshole still wins the pot.

Here, with the necessary edits:

http://yohami.com/blog/2011/10/23/the-jerkasshole-wins-the-pot/

Isabel,

“we can’t even decide on a single, common definition of jerk? =/”

We, kimosabe?

Jerk = dark triad.

Badger is just absolutely nailing it.

It’s tough for more traditional women to wrap their minds around because they assume that today’s women are looking for the same thing they were – one man who combined alpha and beta qualities – and thus assume that the men who are complaining just aren’t offering the right mix.

The problem with the assumption is the “one” part. Monogamy is increasingly seen, either explicitly (see the last page of Bolick’s article) or implicitly (as an illegitimate restriction on women’s choices) as patriarchal and thus as something to at least suspect, if not to reject outright. Notice that Ozy and Heidi have both done so.

Once the restriction to one man is removed, the woman is now free to find a herb for the beta traits and commit (sic – little sex, no respect, no set time frame) to him, or even to maintain a harem of orbiters, while getting the sexy son genes (or their proxy, hot sex) from the alpha who, by definition, will not commit. Both are obviously exaggerations for effect, but the dynamic is there.

This strategy takes several forms. In the middle middle class where I live, there is an epidemic of single-motherhood, where the girl gets her alpha genes up front (the men fathering these children are often much older and father several by several women – they aren’t boyfriends who got overzealous) then finds a beta provider to support her and her child. Further up you get professional women who let their careers function as their beta provider, while getting their periodic alpha injection thru no strings attached sex. The younger version maintains a herb boyfriend, so she can use him to shit-test her prospective jerks with IHAB’s, with the herb serving as a built-in validation buddy after the jerk does what jerks do.

There are three ways to get into a relationship/marriage with such a woman (women looking for actual monogamy and proactive in obtaining it are mostly snapped up by 24, so such woman are the vast majority of what is left).

The most conventional route is by being the orbiter who “wins” the game of musical chairs when she finally decides she needs a relationship/marriage. Sometimes the man can develop sufficient professional status/confidence that he can become a man she can admire and this all works out. If the man shows any assertiveness at all before that happens, he gets blown out (the creep). More often than working out (the easiest way to build that status/confidence is with the support of a great women – these women resist playing that role), it devolves into the “you can do better” trade-up/divorce. It’s true, she can do better, but she’s often afraid to risk it initially. See Nurture Shock for why smart people of this generation tend to become risk-averse.

The route being advocated by the Ro’s is to be such an appealing alpha (Dark Triad helps, but with strong enough frame it may not be required – this is what the women on this thread are arguing and there is a grain of truth in it. Light triad does hurt, so strong silent may be the play) that the women eventually starts showing commitment/affection behavior, at which point it is OK to show 2/3 of what she is. Players who want sex can lower her shields by teasing her about being a prude, so perhaps the same approach could be used to get her to start considering commitment. High risk approach for all involved.

The third route is the strategic social circle game that works so well for savvy high-value younger women who are interested in marriage/family. It basically boils down into getting into situations where an appealing woman can admire you for something other than your sexual prowess (a man with any level of alpha who unleashes his prowess before making an emotional connection with a woman will find his attraction collapsing – not out of infidelity risk, but because those alpha hormones are shouting “next!”), allowing her to begin building an emotional connection that you can reinforce before the date clock starts ticking.

166 Ben wrote:

I used to think “busy” was a nice no, but for smarter girls in particular, if that’s what you’re into (and I am), I am starting to think that they really do just have a lot of stuff going on between work, school, and whatever, and relationships take time and work.

Hmm. I guess that this actually makes sense.

“If you spend time in older societies, one notices that there is the connection of tradition where older women encourage younger ones to pick “good” men

…and soon.  Thankfully, that is what goes on in the large majority of the world”

Older women are supposed to serve as the prime restraint on the behavior of young unmarried women. We have a couple of generations of older women who completely abdicated this responsibility. And in some ways, deliberately pimped out younger women.
You occasionally see aging hens like Naomi Wolf regretting the “anything goes” culture they helped promote when they were young and hot. Of course they accept no responsibilty for this and blame teh menz.

You’re welcome Chris. Seriously, many women have led men down a bad path.

“Now, if I’d acted like a jerk, I could have gotten laid.  I didn’t want to, so I didn’t act like that.  I was in “standard operating” mode.  And I received ridicule and a slap in kind.  Hmmm.”

She just had a bad problem with rejection, looks like; you acted correctly, believe me. If you’d acted like a jerk, doesn’t matter, she was already interested so you may have gotten laid anyway. Or, she may have been more annoyed. Many reasons women go for jerks and/or have a bad boy moment at some point in their lives: they think they can change him. They have low-self esteem. They’re intrigued (partly connected to the “change him” thing). They’re so hungry for masculinity, which they’ve been raised to reject, that they mistake his jerkiness for strength and/or are simply drawn to the testasterone, which they haven’t gotten in good supply. They think since he acts like he’s worth something inspite of his behavior, maybe he is. They’re reacting from the evolutionary remnants of the caveman fallacy, and their natures since the fall of Eden are screwed up anyway; how often do we lust for harmful stuff? A lot. Better for MGTOW than to morph into a beast to sexually arouse a witch.

“Based on this definition, all 6 weren’t good women, even though they were dressed well…didn’t have tattoos…and smiled as they talked.  Explain to me why these women are worthy of commitment…”

That’s a major over-simplification of the issue; major. Many men have gotten hurt, but others give up too easily or rationalize/justify the situation to make the women blameworthy and themselves not. Basic game is good; going into detail-by-detail stuff, which differs from blog to blog and starts blurring in morality and over-all accuracy, is beating a wall. Some women don’t give out numbers to strangers they just met; they may have been there to shop, not in a romantic mode. You could have been talking to a lesbian, a GF or a married woman at some point and didn’t know it. Just don’t take it so harshly; rejection, esp. the neutral/cordial kind, is not a reason to become a slick jerk, and I wouldnt even go as far as calling it outright rejection. It doesn’t make someone a bad person.

dogsquat re misleading guy reports

well i accept you may be correct and there is no real way of me verifying what they tell me.

They did seem entirely plausible though and some of them argued amongst themselves about the issue- i didn’t get a uniform response although the clear majority thought dark game BS.

Some of these guys were total players by the way- it wasnt just guys in LTRs I spoke too.

Plus, most girls I know would be appalled at the dark game tactics. I know you always say “yeah but actions speak louder than words”- but most of my female peers did not end up with ‘serious’ jerks.

I can certainly assure you that dark game would not have worked with me.

I love how it always comes back to being my fault.  And my friends wonder why I don’t make much effort toward dating anymore.

@jess – My grandma’s second husband had a saying.  “Earth is the cosmic looney bin.”  I’m in full agreement!

BTW Jennifer, I am a MGTOW partially because I refuse to become something I’m not.  I’m learning a little game, and it seems to help.  But I won’t become some clown pandering to nutty entitled women.  I’d rather be alone with the man I am than be together with some woman who wants me as someone else.

So, these days, I’m alone.

I’ve read all the comments, and I’ve been doing a lot of thinking. Here’s what I think about the seeming necessity for some men to “act like jerks” to get female attention.

I can say until I’m blue in the face that I like men to be nice to me and to not act like jerks, but most men will gripe with me about it. The above statement is 100% true, BUT (and a very big but it is) it is conditional. I won’t be attracted to all men if they treat me nice. I will be more attracted to a man who treats me nicely if the following condition has already been met:

***I am very PHYSICALLY attracted to him***

Bear with me while I hash this out.

I have dated “nice guys”, but these “nice guys” were also very handsome to me from the beginning. The first time I saw them, I knew I was attracted to how they looked. Once we talked/hung out together, their “nice guy” ways were an added bonus. Their physical attractiveness was what initially piqued my interest, but their “nice guy” ways were what made me stay.

I hypothesize that “game” works well in situations where a woman is “on the fence” about how physically attracted to a man she is. If she isn’t sure whether you are her “cup of tea” physical wise, using game can increase her primal attraction to you because it increases your “dominant masculine aura”. In other words, certain women will find you more attractive when you use game if you weren’t highly physically attractive to her on her first glance.

The saying goes “Women know within 5 minutes if they will sleep with a man or not”. When I look at a man for the first time, I instantly know if I think he is handsome/physically attractive to me or not. If I think he is handsome, I prefer him to be nice. That would be the best possible combination for me for a future mate (physically attractive and nice). Men, however, run into the following problems in the dating world.

1. Women are drawn to physically attractive men.

2. Men aren’t hypergamous, and are willing to engage with less physically attractive women as well as physically attractive women.

3. Women,however, are hypergamous, and would prefer to engage with physically attractive men at or above their own physical attractiveness level.

4. The percentage of men that women would instinctively find physically attractive at first glance is very small (10%-40%). Men use game to increase their overall perceived attractiveness to women.

In summary, the most objectively physically attractive men (7s,8s, 9s, and 10s) can be “nice” without it harming their chances with women. Less conventionally physically attractive men (4s, 5s, and 6s) would be better served to employ game to foster the attraction triggers in women who aren’t completely sold on their physical appearances alone.

@Jess – That was Ceer who approached at the mall, not me.  Methinks you’re confusing the two of us.

I haven’t been in a mall since 2004 (nor do I want to enter one ever again).  I was in a bar.  Presumably a place where men could approach women (if I’d wanted to, which I did not) without them freaking out.

I may study the whole “dark triad” sometime in the future.  If nothing else, its power for acquiring sex makes me curious.

And since “dating is dead” the occasional ONS will have to do for now.

I hear ya, Chris.

“By far the most efficient way for womenfolk to convince men to stop thinking they are most deeply attracted to jerks is to start having lots of enthusiastic casual(if that is what they are into) sex with the opposite-of-jerk guys. And have the “jerks” be forced to watch this spectacle for years on end”

It’s happened before, society without this nonsense. It can happen again.

The way I see it, Sassy, either a woman’s attracted or she’s not. There are certainly things a guy can do, but a chemical reaction can’t be forced and neither can a more intimate one. I require the old-fashioned stuff; men be men, and good men who treat me with respect and are true to themselves (ex: if you don’t like Jane Austen, don’t watch it just for my sake; it ain’t you. But don’t insult my preference of it either).

A woman sitting next to me immediately started talking.  Not very attractive – 3, maybe 4.  I was not interested.  So, no need to be a jerk right?  We spoke about a couple things for a few minutes.  Mostly small talk, with a few more substantial topics.  I was even in my tone and responses.  Pretty much how I am with friends.

She had dropped hints in her conversation – commented on my energy level, asked where I work/how much I make, what plans I had for the night.  I gave standard answers, not wanting to escalate these with her, but wanting to maintain a pleasant demeanor.

 

This actually perfectly illustrates my point in my last post.

You said she was about a 3 or 4 on the physical attractiveness scale. It’s safe to assume then that you are probably a 5-7 on the attractiveness scale (she probably wouldn’t have started talking to you if you were higher than that (8-10) on the physical attractiveness scale, for fear of outright rejection). This situation satisfied her hypergamous urges. She was attracted to you.

Hypothetically, if you had started dating her, I would almost guarantee that her attraction to you wouldn’t change if you used “game” on her or if you were a “nice guy” with her. She would be happy to have you as her boyfriend and would willingly accept commitment from you regardless of how you acted towards her. You wouldn’t need “game” to foster more attraction. The attraction threshold had already been met by your physical attractiveness to her.

Now, hypothetically speaking, let’s pretend the situation was a little different. Let’s pretend that you were at that bar again, but you weren’t as physically attractive as you are now. You suddenly became a 3 or 4 (just like her), and you sat next to her in the bar. How much differently would the interaction have gone?

1. She probably wouldn’t have started talking to you.

2. If you started talking to her, she would either be rude to you or she would have the same neutral tone with you that you had with her in your story.

3. If you tried to flirt/ask her out in a “nice” way, she would probably turn you down (even though the two of you are of equal attractiveness, in this scenario).

4. If you tried to flirt/ask her out using “game”, I think your hypothetical chances with her would increase somewhat because “game”, in essence, gives men a boost of value in the SMP. Game could bump you up from a 3-4 to a 5-6 overall, which would satisfy her hypergamous urges once again.

the few guys who take the “be an asshole” idea are most likely to end up like Jesus Mahoney: modest success, great sadness that it worked, but *won’t* have the heart to become a monster.

Well, I’d say I tried a bunch of ideas, not just the “be an asshole” thing. It’s just that, as Sue wondered with regard to Roosh, poon nirvana isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

I’d say my original intention to learn game was fueled by a bit of bitterness. I thought I lost respect for women when i took the “red pill”, but that wasn’t the case. I just resented them for leaving me out of the game (in reality, I left myself out of the game by being a pathetic orbiter and someone willing to sit out the game in the friendzone). The fact is, that I valued them as much as ever, because their estimation of me was every bit as important. That’s why I wanted to get them into bed.

But in practicing game, I came to realize very quickly that very beautiful women who’ve always seemed so confident and and intelligent and “nice” were really just pathetically insecure little girls willing to put out to be liked by men who could demonstrate high enough value.

That depressed the hell out of me, to be honest.

Also, I was able to confirm something that I used to believe very strongly before I was thrown off by all my bitterness: sex with strange women I neither know nor care about isn’t all that great. I mean it’s good, but it’s like a great masturbation session. No matter how great masturbation is, when it’s all over you’re still just a lonely man with a kleenex when it’s all said and done. Just because the kleenex in the case of casual sex happens to be a pretty girl with warm sweaty skin and a heaving bosom, it doesn’t mean you feel any less lonely. More so, ironically. There’s none of that at-one-ness, none of that opening up to one another in a meaningful way, none of that bonding where you don’t have to say a fucking word and yet you feel totally connected to the woman.

No, you do it, and then… right back to game, because you have to figure out what to do in that moment, do you stay, do you go, do you wait for her to be asleep and then sneak out, do you fall asleep and hope that she sneaks out before morning? If not, it’s like you’re meeting a new person for the first time in the morning, except that this new person, one you haven’t a clue what to say to, was the very person you plowed for an hour and a half the night before. So, you fuck again, and you wonder if she’s fucking for the same reason as you: because putting the moves on her in the morning is easier than making small talk.

Whatever the case, I don’t know what I have the heart for anymore. P & D is not for me. Nor is dating a woman who’s been P & D’d by other men. Especially not if I’m waiting around while wondering if she’s been P & D’d by others.

Ultimately, I’ll just have to weed through the bad ones in order to find someone decent, but for the moment I’m sitting out. I’m working on myself instead.

We all can hmm the following tune as we start our week

(Around the world) I have been around the world
(Lookin’) Lookin’ for that woman girl
(Who knows she knows) Who knows love can endure
And you know it will

Southern Cross —- Crosby, Still & Nash

Edward Cullen is not an asshole. In fact, he’s a doormat with severe oneitis.

The thing about Edward is that he is a super alpha, handsome, rich and superpowered like Superman,  Dr Manhattan and so on…he needed to balance it out with an over the top betaness or he wouldn’t be the beloved character across the globe he is. If you look at all those characters they are usually tied to one woman instead of banging every female in sight (and probably the reason men like Batman more than Superman who has had serious girlfriends through the years but is devoted to Lois Lane, and Rorschach more Jon they have the chance and the rank to bang millions of women but choose to remain faithful to one even if Dr Manhattan changer his aging girlfriend for a teenager he stayed with her for over 20 years,instead of again pulling a George Vlooney)

Now for the sake of the audience I just want to expose that IMO the difference between getting Twilight and its characters (twihard like Moi) or not (hater or labeling Edward as a virgin, monogamous, vegetarian “bad boy”) is the level of personal cynism. An uncynical person will see that Edward is struggling with falling in love for the first time in 90 years with a human girl that is at least  4 generations apart and smells too good for her own good, plus with complete faith on sentient creatures around her in spite of the danger and thus all his actions are more the ones of a vampire dork than a bad boy. Now a cynical sees him as a powerful man that is manipulating a vulnerable girl into his evil scheme of marrying her, giving her money, showering her with affection and attention and spending the rest of the eternity protecting her of any harm MWA HA HA HA, how assholish of him of course.

I’m personally only 10% cynical so that is why I’m a twihard but I’m Team anti Jerkob and anti Renee. My guess out of the text and Stephenie’s interviews is that she is 100% non-cynical which is a miracle in modern times but then she is a mormon which will explain it, YMMV.

Heidi at 147:  I guess I’m just (serious, no snark involved) trying to understand it since this isn’t my reality at all.

I think your problem is revealed in this very telling remark, earlier in the same comment:

I don’t have friends that have wanted for dates

Really?  You’re not friends with anyone who’s had trouble getting dates?  So it appears that either (1) you live in a charmed circle, on a distant and mythical plateau, where the mail is delivered by unicorn; (2) you carefully restrict your friendship to only beautiful people; or (3) all your friends are women.  Whichever the case, though, I’m here to help.

If you really want to understand what goes on in the world, then your first step is to broaden your perspective.  You seem to be trapped in the logical fallacy of “Since I and my girlfriends all go for nerdy types, it can’t be true that nerds are unattractive.”  The error here is centering on a woman’s point of view; to understand men’s experience you have to see things from men’s point of view.  So the next (or current) time that you’re involved with some nice, non-nasty nerdy guy, take the time to find out about his friends and acquaintances of the same ilk: do they have girlfriends?  do they get laid as often as they’d like?  do they feel any pressure to severely change their personalities or behaviors in order to succeed romantically?

It’s not enough, you see, to say “That guy I’m attracted to, he doesn’t have anything to complain about”; what you need to do is find out about the lives of the other 99% of men whom you are not attracted to.  How do they live?  What problems are they facing?  Don’t presume you know anything about them, just based on your own personal preferences/experiences in life; go and find out before drawing any conclusions.  In short, free yourself from the apex fallacy and you’ll be able to see much more of the world in front of you.

Lastly, I have to sincerely thank you for this line

There are women (myself included) sitting in the corner of the coffee shop thinking how insanely hot it is that you’re reading Guns, Germs, and Steel (true story), and we want to get to know you. I bet you anything, just like you think women are ignoring you, you’re ignoring women.

from 148 above; really, it’s the best laugh I’ve had all week.

“Try getting a crappy nurse fired, though”

Well, if I ever see any nurse of either sex disrespecting a family member or friend, they’ll have hell to pay.

Desiderious, you seem to be coming from a good and sincere place. You have my respect. Jesus, you continue to win it.

206 Chris wrote:

I gave standard answers, not wanting to escalate these with her, but wanting to maintain a pleasant demeanor.

After about ten minutes she called me a pompous asshole, slapped my shoulder and left.

Now, if I’d acted like a jerk, I could have gotten laid.

Interesting. Looks like woman definition of asshole is just opposite of man’s definition?
☻

(Got morning coffee. Hmm. Girl need to be waken up.)

Interesting. Looks like woman definition of asshole is just opposite of man’s definition?

I think asshole is similar to slut. A guy that has had 2 partners and only relationship sex with both of them will find even an ONS a mark of a slut while a guy with 4 partners and several ONS will find the same woman modest and even prudish.

So maybe for a man an asshole is a man that does things he would never do to a woman out of personal believes or respect? Guys chime in on that.

@Badger,

Back on the  point of this post, I get that male neediness and over-emotionalism is unattractive to women. But I think modern women have turned up the sensitivity way too high. You or your vagina demanding that your man has to be totally independent and unruffled by any disturbance or fitness testing is simply screening for sociopaths and hardened players who have blown out their souls.

+10 to this post as well as the ones above where you pointed out that male and female definitions of what makes a dude an asshole are different.

In the quest to “live life to the fullest” and play out their grandiose illusions, people end up needing more and more and more to even feel that spark of vitality.  It’s always about the next big adventure.  About the challenge.  We’re all just spoiled.

Nobody can seem to agree if there are an overabundance of needy men, or if the bar’s been raised, or both.

I can’t even say how many total assholes I’ve seen labelled as anywhere from “nice” to “misunderstood” just because these girls were after them.  We don’t label guys as jerks/assholes/whatever out of envy or jealousy, we truly believe they are such and they’re exactly the type of guys we were raised not to be.  That’s why you have so many guys in the manosphere screaming that you’ve literally been sleeping with the enemy.  The only thing worse than realizing you’re a failure is realizing you’re failing to someone you have no respect for whatsoever, all while being fed a stream of lies about the guy, myself, or the girl in question.

All of this would be solved by a simple admission that women don’t actually select for “good” in men.  They want good men, just like men want good women, but goodness is low on the list and inherently uninteresting.

Jennifer said:

“Dog, I disagree that social conservatives have led to sex being the way it is now.

You have changed the statement, Jennifer. I said that social conservatives are contributing to our present difficulties.

However, you raised an interesting point.

Part of what gave birth to feminism was strict roles imposed on women by social conservatives. There really did used to be a wage gap. Women really couldn’t work in certain fields. Women couldn’t vote. There really was a need for a movement to insure women were treated just like other human beings.

Feminism helped achieve that a long time ago. Feminists should have taken their efforts overseas where real injustice is commonplace, instead of becoming a supremacy movement.

Present day SoCons are screwing stuff up by blaming the wrong people. They’re so permeated with feminist thought that people like Bill Bennett and Kay Hymowitz think the solution is for men to just put their heads in the noose like they’ve always done.  They’re so clueless they can’t even ask the right questions, let alone arrive at a workable answer.

Start reading here if you’re interested:

http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/clueless-socons-redux/

As for the rest of it:

So you’re telling me that you’d lie to me and tell me that you have cheated, you never connect with your sexual partners, and you like casual sex? And other men are doing this too? All the sooner would I drop them like bricks; easier to narrow the field, then.

I wouldn’t be honest, especially at first, but it’s not as black-and-white as your example. Depending on how you asked the question, I would answer in a way that either made you laugh or launched your Alert Five Hamster. If I wanted to generate attraction in you, I must avoid fitting in to certain patterns and keep myself nebulous, in a way. That allows your mind to fill in the blanks – and if you like me, you’ll do the “blank-filling” in a way that’s much more attractive to you than I can.

I was trying to think of specific words I would say, but this stuff is so situation dependent that an example that I’ve successfully used on one girl probably wouldn’t work on you. This stuff just flows out of my mouth without me thinking about it, anyway – it’s kind of subconscious. Body language, tone, and mannerisms are a huge part of creating the desired feelings in you as well – it’s not a fair test to see how it’s done by reading it in black and white.

If you asked me,”Have you ever cheated?”

I’d probably get all serious, put my head in my hands, and say,”Yes…..once. I feel bad about it….terrible, even.” I’d look at you, as if to gauge your reaction. “You see, I was miserable,” I’d plead, “Trapped in a world I hated, seeing a bleak future, and me only eight years old…..”

You’d freak out about the 8 years old thing. “Whaaat!! Eight years old??!?!?”

Then I’d tell you a funny story about cheating at Hungry Hungry Hippos at my babysitter’s house by hiding some marbles in my pocket, and we’d laughingly segue into other subjects of conversation. I’d never actually answer your direct question.

Still, it’s a lie because it’s not 100% honest.

Of course, later in the relationship, after you’re in love with me and looking for reassurance, I’d answer the same question like this:

“No, Jennifer – I’ve never cheated in a relationship. I think cheating is terrible. But today is a new day, and I will change if you want me to, because I love you. Some of your friends are cute…”

See how that works?

Ribbon Butterfly,

Six months ago I could have helped you.

See, I know this awesome paramedic who’s working on his undergraduate degree in Biochem.  He’s in his real early 30’s – got a late start on college because he was in the military for awhile.  He’s doing good at school – hasn’t gotten a B yet.  Good lookin’ kid, too.  Wants to be a doctor himself one day.

Problem is, he started seeing a girl who’s a lot like you, but done with most of her schooling.  That chick is hot, too.

That guy I’m talking about wanted me to remind you that all bleeding stops eventually, asystole is the most stable rythym, and They Can Always Hurt You More.

If Kate Bolick had prioritized finding a man like it was a job, she’d be married right now guaranteed. By her own admission she just drifted into and out of relationships. Don’t let that be you.

My fingers are itching to start my blog I will have a couple of posts about how I used my workaholic tendencies to focus in finding a husband that lasted a lifetime and more. This is another damage of feminism women never said out loud they want to get married and are dedicating the same effort to husband shopping they did at their careers, you wouldn’t caught a modern woman death saying that unless she reaches a HUGE level of desperation, like Date Me DC. But then who knows if being desperate to be married becomes “in” women will be more open to that.

@Anacaona

I can’t wait for you to start your blog! It seems as if you’ve been teasing us with it for months!

@ Badger: Canada…? Why?

@Dogsquat: I think I’m meant to laugh here! And I did. Too bad I missed out on you.

Or, or, or, and this is my late night overthinking: did you mean that medicine’s going to get worse from here? Where people suffer, and die, and I can’t do anything about it? And Where patients hurt me? And where I might make a mistake that costs someone their life, and that’s going to break my spirit into forty billion pieces of pain and failure, and I might not get them all back?  Because… I know all that is coming. I’m in a very protected place right now. We only get to see standardized patients pre-clerkship. I’m already tearing up on a regular basis. But… I hope for grace. I hope I can act, enough of the time, with grace, and poise, and alleviate suffering. If I can at least do that, then it’s all worth it.

“On a general note, I don’t think a lot of women are grokking the nature of the frustration of guys about this. It’s stereotyped as anger, but like a baby cries because its previous signs of hunger were ignored, the anger is distilled from other emotions – intense loneliness, the disappointment of repeated rejection, sexual and emotional frustration, a sense they’re not getting what they want out of life, that no one recognizes their value, and a bit of feeling lied to all your life about how the marketplace works. Really, these guys have tried to do “the right thing” all their lives and found there’s a shortcut to the front of the security line that is arrived at specifically by breaking all the rules.”

Track down the video of Sodini where he walks through his house and describes it.  He doesn’t come across as a jerk, a  little socially inept – and I’ll bet totally invisible to girls.  For all you girls saying you want someone nice, we see what gets results.  As Roosh has written several times, he generates the behavior that gets him what he wants.  The rest of us guys are practicing to generate that behavior too.

Heh, we’re just feeding asshole cheese to the rats to lure them into our bedroom trap.

@Ribbon, proto-MD:

Yes, I was being nice and trying to make you laugh.  I am spoken for.  I’m serious about Badger’s abilities, though.

Yes, medicine gets worse.  Much worse.  It also gets better, in a way.  I like it enough that I’ll be where you are in a few years, wearing that goofy short white coat.

I obviously work in emergency medicine, and I like it here.  You internal med types with your glucose challenges and anion gaps and shit like that bore me.

The principle here is the same, though it’ll manifest differently in EM vs IM vs Other:

Most of what we do doesn’t matter.  People are going to die one day anyway.  You can’t innoculate someone against stupidity, or bad choices, or too many birthdays, or bad luck.  Half the shit you learn in school you’ll never use (you won’t know which half until you retire, though – so study hard).

You won’t even be able to alleviate most of the suffering you see. Sure, fentanyl will cover the patient’s pain, but what do you do about her missing eye, torn off nose, and the fact that she’s an alcoholic who got drunk, drove home, and crashed into another car, killing a toddler in the process?

You must find a way to focus on the small bit of good that you do, and allow the pointless, the protocol, the routine suffering to roll off your back – or you’ll burn out.

Here’s a hint:

The good stuff isn’t always what you think it is.

Once, I picked up Torsades on an EKG when nobody else did.  I identified the cause, too.  I begged and yelled and advocated for my patient more strenuously than I ever have, and through my ability saved the life of my patient.

Pretty good shit, right?  Identify the zebra, kick the medical establishment in the balls, and don’t step on my cape, please!

You’d think so, except…

The patient didn’t give a shit.  They went to the hospital, we fixed ‘em, they went home a few days later.  That’s what they expected to happen.  The doc was embarrassed, and everybody clocked out and we went home.  Now, the doc won’t look me in the eye and I’ll never see the patient again.

Not the feeling I was looking for.

The good stuff is like this:

One lady had a STEMI while car shopping.  I called the STEMI alert, hauled ass to the cath lab, did my charting, re-stocked the bus, and forgot about her.  Just doing my job, same as usual.  I do shit like that all the time.

Only she came back to the hospital one night, found me, and gave me a hug and a kick-ass ride in the new sports car she bought.  We were speeding up and down the streets that night, and I laughed and laughed and laughed until I cried – it was one of the best feelings I’ve ever had.

I got a card from a patient’s family – a patient that I didn’t do anything for medically.  I just knew he was lonely and I liked chatting with him. When it was slow I’d post up my ‘bolance at his house, share some coffee from my thermos, and let him talk.  He finally died on one of my days off.  The family thanked me, anyway.  I’m looking at that card right now – I framed it and hung it on my wall.  I miss that guy, and I think I made his final days a bit more bearable.

Holding a dying old lady’s hand so they’re not so scared – that’s as important as any drug in my box, or anything you can write in a textbook.

That is the kind of good you can do in addition to good medicine – the kind of stuff that will allow you to go to work every day.  Pay attention to it.  Freeze these moments in your mind, make perfect mental recordings of them – you will need them later.

___________________

I don’t know if they tell you young Doclings this or not, but it’s important:

If you practice medicine (I don’t practice medicine the way you will – I’m just a gutter ‘medic, but you know whamsayne) long enough, you will kill someone.  I mean that – somebody will die as a direct result of something you did to them.  You might drop a lung in an already super-sick person while putting in a subclavian line, or fuck up an advanced airway so bad that the patient aspirates and gets rip-roaring pneumonia and crumps, or prescribe the next Vioxx or Phen Fen – but you’re gonna kill somebody one day.

You’d better do some good (and remember it when you do) to balance that out, or it will destroy you when it happens.  Study hard and pay attention so you actually know what went wrong.  Then feel bad for awhile, learn from it, teach others about it, and move the fuck on.

I was in the military for a long time, and I know a little bit about causing death.  You will shatter into a million pieces once you come to terms with it.  You’ve got to create other pieces, good pieces to fix yourself with.  Some of those pieces don’t come from medicine.  No, you will not ever be the same, but you will still be there, making good pieces.  Hopefully that’s enough for you and for The Universe.

Good Luck, Young Docling!

Yours in a 15 LPM NRB Because I Hate The Hypoxic Drive In COPD,

Dogsquat, EMT-P, ABCBBD, LMFAO, POOP

PS – If you match into Derm you’ll never have to worry about this stuff.

Desiderius,

That’s a nice agree and amplify, but I wasn’t shit testing you. Or anyone. When men have our logical problem-solving hats on (as we do in this thread), we can’t play those games even if we want to. When you want to gain some deeper understanding of what I’m talking about rather than looking for an excuse to dismiss a difficult truth, I’ll re-engage with some examples/analogies.

-_-

Enough with the frame paranoia. I wasn’t amplifying anything. What I say is what I mean because I have nothing to lose or gain by being honest online. No stakes, no care. In any case, what’s so troubling about it? My hindbrain is pretty satisfied by the calibre of guys here, and my religious upbringing drummed Good Men vs. Bad Men into my head early on, so IDK why I should find the concept ‘difficult’ when I’m already happily preoccupied with the cute and mentally stable on campus.

It’s not so much sticking my head in the sand as it is shrugging and leaving others to their own devices.

Aaron,

Just a quick question, although a little off topic…

Confused then impressed?

Confused because I’d wonder why you haven’t internalised hook-up culture as the norm, particularly as a guy. I’m a few years younger than you (guessing you’re 23+) and not even the most traditional girls I know are as pro-monogamy or self-assured as you are at this stage. Everyone is too busy experimenting or as Abbot would call it, having casual sex under the guise of “exploration” to tolerate sitting out the game. After that, I’d be pretty impressed because people who say no when everyone else is slurring consent are fairly rare. But according to some, I’m clearly lying about what I like (despite having always declined and despised promiscuity) and you’re a blue pilller on the verge of being cannibalised by teh modern woman so hey ho. Manosphere protocol forbids you to take advice from females so technically, nothing I say matters. I’m the 1%. *pulls out tiny violin*

No, seriously. Don’t get eaten.

In my opinion, you’re reading too far into the character. From a mechanical perspective, the series is so poorly written that one does not need to be cynical to understand that Edward’s character lacks depth and development.

If over-analyzing art (especially books) is wrong, I don’t want to be right.  Plus Anaconda is one of the respectable fans we link.

Hey girl, if you ever get that blog started, we should totally exchange links.

Isabel, I don’t “hook up” because I personally think even kissing someone you don’t love is a bit disgusting (Christmas is a nightmare with mistletoe- but I am quite good at avoiding it now lol). Great guess I’m 23 at the end of November! I have done sexual things in both of my long term relationships in the past but I want marriage, mutual fidelity, love, commitment, a really strong emotional connection, to be her best friend and for her to know that she can talk to me about anyhtingand I will always be there for her and support her in her choices etc and I think that to me at least is more important than the sexual side of a relationship so I have decided to keep sexual contact strictly for marriage. I have always been fiercly monogamus to the point that I have never been and never will go to a stripclub because to me even seeing anther woman naked is cheating (and yes that includes porn).

I’m afraid I’m not quite sure what you mean by being cannabilised by modern women.

Or what you mean by manosphere, but why shouln’t I listen to women? We are all people, human beings, aren’t we? So shouldn’t we treat one another as equals and listen to each others thoughts, feelings and opinions? After all my question does directly relate to women.

-Aaron

Imagine this whole “nice guy” vs. “jerk” debate if “nice guys”=healthy food and “jerks”=unhealthy foods:

He: Chicks dig unhealthy food.
She: Not all chicks.
He: I mean, of course women will try to eat healthy foods, but really, in their heart of hearts, they’d prefer to be able to bite into a big mac or a slice of pizza instead.
She: Well I know of a lot of healthy foods that taste great.
He: Okay, okay. But they don’t taste great BECAUSE they’re healthy. What I mean is, it’s not the relative health of the food that makes it taste great. So it’s not so much that you like healthy food, but that you like food that tastes great and if it’s healthy so much the better.
She: Okay, yes. Food has to taste good in order for me to want to eat it.
He: So then it’s true. You don’t like healthy food.
She: No, I do.
He: Let me ask you this: if McDonald’s weren’t bad for you, would you eat it?
She: I don’t know. I’ve never been big into McDonald’s.
He: Okay, not McDonald’s. It doesn’t have to be McDonald’s, but unhealthy food in general. It tastes great, doesn’t it?
She: Some.
He: So really, more women would like what I cooked them if I made something unhealthy.
She: Maybe. If it tasted good. But most women, I mean the ones who think about their long term healthy, would prefer a healthy meal that tasted good.
He: But that night, at dinner, they would ENJOY the unhealthy meal more.
She: I don’t know. Maybe.
He: So I’m better off cooking something unhealthy.
She: Well, um… I don’t know. Why would you want a woman who prefers to eat McDonald’s?
He: You’ve never eaten McDonald’s?
She: Well, I mean I have, but–
He: Aha. And when you think about it, MOST women have eaten McDonald’s at some point or another in their lives.
She: Perhaps.
He: So it would be easier to find a woman who will enjoy McDonald’s than one who enjoys, say, steamed broccoli.
She: I like steamed broccoli.
He: But it doesn’t taste as delicious as McDonald’s, does it? I mean, if you were really going to indulge yourself, would it be with McDonald’s or steamed broccoli.
She: Well, actually I’m a vegetarian, so…
He: But most women are NOT vegetarians.
She: No, I guess not.
He: So I’d be better off serving something unhealthy for dinner if I want a woman to enjoy it.
She: I guess. I mean, unless she really enjoyed steamed broccoli.
He: Those women are outliers.
She: Perhaps.
He: Who wants to be associated with steamed broccoli? I want a woman to look at me and think “big mac.”
She: You might not attract the most healthy women anyway.
He: But I will find women who like to indulge in eating.
She: That might be true.

Thank you, Sue. Enjoy the weekend in Napa?

Okay, so I’m trying to catch up here… bear with me and my multiple posts, please. 

Ceer (#213)
This may seem ridiculous, but did you ask for the numbers of the women you met at the mall?  There have a been a few times where men have engaged me, only to let me walk away and not ask my number.

Also, someone else mentions (I think) that the mall is pretty brave.  There’s a fine line between looking interested and looking creepy, lol.
Lastly, the mall encourages consumer behavior, which may or may not be okay with you. I vowed last year, right before Christmas, to not step foot in a mall for another year.  And without any effort, it’s been completely easy to remain committed to that vow. The only reason to go to a mall is to unnecessarily spend money under the guise of “socializing.”  Skip it.  Not to say that all mall shoppers are consumer-junkies, but it’s probably a habit you’d like to avoid.

Like someone else suggested, widen your social network and leverage friends for introductions.

Anon (#215)
We aren’t all automatrons led by our “friends.” If a friend in my life turns toxic, I bid the relationship goodbye.  I make it a priority to surround myself with those who challenge me to be a better individual.  If someone doesn’t do that, then it’s time to let them go.

Jennifer (#219)
“Better for MGTOW than to morph into a beast to sexually arouse a witch.”

^^^ This!  If you the OP had captured the attention of the woman in question, he’d be in the same boat… still in the presence of a woman who doesn’t sound all that respectful or decent.

Sassy6519 (#227)
While I appreciate your perspective on attraction, I think I have to slightly disagree.  Yes, attraction is determined pretty immediately, but I also think attraction is fluid.  If a 5 or 6 guy (perhaps a bit overweight, or just not “conventionally” attractive”) starts chatting with me and he’s affable, charming, witty, and engaging, my attraction to him goes way up.  A positive and charming personality goes a long way.

Anon (#235) – Jesus Mahoney?

I’m surprisingly refreshed by your honesty.  I’m so sorry, however, to hear that it’s further depressed you.  That’s sad.    I enjoy relationships because of the companionship of having someone around who understands and respects you. You are not getting to experience that, which genuinely elicits sadness to your situation. 

I also agree with you… I like sex.  I’m a total slut and happy about it.  It works for my life and makes me quite happy.  What I don’t like?  Sex with strangers, like you mention.  I don’t do ONS or random sex.  I cultivate a few close relationships with my guy friends and keep them on rotation.  (They all know about each other, I’m not secretive.)  My priority is my main partner, but we hook up with other people because we both love sex. But for both of us, the sex isn’t as great as it is when it’s just us two, and neither of us are into ONS. So your thoughts aren’t unusual.  I think most people don’t like sex with strangers.

I hate to sound patronizing, but keep your chin up and don’t let the bad seeds get you down.  There are women out there who are worthy of your love and respect.  I wish I could shove aside the stupid women so you could have a clear path to the “good” women. 

@Dogsquat (#238)
I already found you highly attractive, and now to find out you’re an atheist, too?  Hotttttt.  (I might be presumptous in assuming this, but damn, your comment was insanely attractive!) 

Here’s why you should ignore Neutrina’s advice: learn from other people’s successes.

It’s always best to listen to advice from people who have successfully accomplished what you want to accomplish. Because they know what actually worked, and what didn’t.

It’s less effective to listen to regretful advice, from people who didn’t accomplish what they wanted to do, and then say “Listen to me, learn from my mistakes, don’t do what I did”. They may know what didn’t work, they often don’t know what worked. At worst, they have no moral authority and are often hypocrites (“Don’t do X, even though I did! I had my fun!”)(

That’s why I don’t advise young men or women here how to “have fun in their twenties”. But I can give advice how meet someone at a reasonable age, build a life together, and keep it together for 20 years.

This applies elsewhere. Why take dating advice from a woman who had 87 “first dates”? Well, if you want to emulate her — meet a lot of guys, pay for nothing, and never have a relationship, then her advice is great! But if you want to actually have a boyfriend, it’s a pretty retarded idea to give her ideas any more credence than a garbage can.

I mean seriously — who would you rather listen financial advice from?

A) The guy who retired at 50 and now lives comfortably in a house owned free and clear.
B) The guy who went bankrupt, but loudly regrets not putting his money into the stock market before the tech and housing bubbles.

Which one knows what they are doing?

When exactly can a guy show that he is emotionally invested in a woman then?

I’ve done the hook up thing for the past 4 years of undergrad and I will be entering profesional school next Sept. I keep running into the same problem, get girl, date girl show interest and she’s gone.

Serious advice on what to do? I could be in a relationship where I keepin asshole mode the entire time but that seems like a very poor way for a relationship to work

-Dave

Desiderius –

from Heidi:

“I’m not into monogamy…  I ADORE my boyfriend and think we’re pretty much perfect for each other.”

Thoughts from Susan, Isabel, others?

You’re welcome to ask *me*, or do comments from me about my own life not count?  I’m guessing because it’s non-traditional, it will be outright rejected here, which I understand.  But it’s *IS* my life, thus I would imagine *MY* opinion would be rather relevant. 

It’s the culture: it upholds loose sex as something cool.

Who knows what missed opportunities may result from this desire to “save face.”

They are not just saving face. They are playing a game.  A game where they basically never come completely forward about their desire to get married.

A lot of advice offered in those books is already well known, but they write it out anyway.

Mmm not really. There were things that I didn’t knew like using a lot of make up is not attractive to men. I think a book is a good way to condense wisdom that might get lost.

Is there an exception for this specific piece of advice?

Well the whole fat acceptance movement is quite strong. I’m sure the author didn’t wanted to lose sales by feminists bitching to her. Also the author of how to marry the man of your choice is quite fat herself and she married twice (her first husband died) is very likely that she doesn’t see being fat as a problem in dating, YMMV.

Desiderius,

After all my hookups I’ve become highly commitment-phobic and jaded; romance with a guy is out of the question.

Not really a surprise…

Put together all the abuse, insults, coldness, rejections and bad sex from the 15 or so guys you’ve hooked up with and you’re really not going to have a good opinion of men. At least not enough to convince you into marrying a non-alpha, dependable type for  all eternity. I’m guessing they’ve already sampled a bit of everything and moved on so there aren’t actually any guys left that can offer them something that hasn’t already been seen or heard before imo. And the rare few that actually could do so might not be interested so monogamy loses its appeal. As long as the girl was always a ‘free spirit’ then it doesn’t really matter what she does with her life… the downside is that girls who don’t really want to drift around might be shamed into thinking that’s the norm when it’s not.

Heidi seems cool and happy, though. ^_^

Desiderius –

from Heidi:

“I’m not into monogamy…  I ADORE my boyfriend and think we’re pretty much perfect for each other.”

Thoughts from Susan, Isabel, others?

Any reason you don’t want to hear MY thoughts on MY relationship?  You’re welcome to ask ME if you have any thoughts or questions. 

Isabel,

“And the rare few that actually could do so might not be interested so monogamy loses its appeal. ” in response to my comment:

“After all my hookups I’ve become highly commitment-phobic and jaded; romance with a guy is out of the question”.

Yes it’s true, my judgement of men at this point is not a very good one, but there is this one guy I am seeing now who actually, as you said could do for a potential LTR, and surprisingly it seems that he’s interested in monogamy(or so it appears at this point). I haven’t had sex with him and we’ve been on 5 dates..I’m worried when we do it’ll be the kiss of death for a LTR. I’m trying to hold out on him as long as I can, kind of making up my gameplan as I go since I’ve forgotten what it is like to date after my 3 years of just having fun. Its turning out to be a lot of mental work on my part to control myself when I was so used to just bedding a guy in a week. Maybe that’s why I, and many other girls are choosing not to commit anymore, the time and energy it takes to run bullshit tests on these guys to see if they’re good dating material takes a lot of work…it’s like trying to find a needle in a hay stack, I just want to take what I can get.

lol @ thefemaleperspective

This is just an elaborate troll right? good god, I feel sorry for that poor guy. guess he gets what he deserves though!

Nummm,

“This is just an elaborate troll right? good god, I feel sorry for that poor guy. guess he gets what he deserves though!”

Just because you don’t get what it is I’m trying to say here, or because what you’re hearing is new to you and not the average run of the mill answer that you’re used to hearing other women say doesn’t make me a troll. Besides, I didn’t say we weren’t hooking up, we’re just not having sex yet.

Dogsquat,

“Jennifer, most of the so-called Godly social conservatives are contributing as much (if not more) to our present difficulties as the radical feminists.”

That’s a lot bigger (and more diverse) camp than you’ll read about in the papers. By temperament, I’m like Churchill’s “I’m not a pillar of the church, I’m a buttress, I support it from the outside.” He had good reasons, both for the support and being outside. We’re now getting up close and personal with the alternatives.

“I live for my loved ones, myself, my patients, my country, and my Corps – in that order. Celestial deities need not apply.”

The deity that inspired the vast majority of those who made that country and that Corps what it is is named “Immanuel” (God with us). Unless you’re celestial, he’s not the droid you’re trying so hard to reject.

While I appreciate your perspective on attraction, I think I have to slightly disagree.  Yes, attraction is determined pretty immediately, but I also think attraction is fluid.  If a 5 or 6 guy (perhaps a bit overweight, or just not “conventionally” attractive”) starts chatting with me and he’s affable, charming, witty, and engaging, my attraction to him goes way up.  A positive and charming personality goes a long way.

You just agreed with me. That’s what “game” does. It helps to foster male personalities that are “charming, witty, and engaging”. Proper “game” isn’t mean-spirited. It’s fun in a light teasing and provocative way.

My entire point is that “game” helps to boost attraction to a man if a woman is “on the fence” about him physically.

Think of it this way. Every person has an instinctive attraction meter in their heads. It’s like a measuring cup. Picture a measuring cup with a line near the top that designates a certain value. That line indicates the “attraction threshold”, meaning the baseline level of attraction that is needed in order for a person to pursue someone else.

Whenever heterosexual women meet a man for the first time, they instantly judge how physically attracted to him they are. A varying amount of liquid is added to each woman’s attraction measuring cup, depending on each woman’s preference for physical features. Some women’s cups might overflow because they think the guy is very attractive. Some women’s cups might fill halfway. Some women’s cups might not fill at all.

Now, considering attraction is changeable, let’s throw game into the mix. When women’s attraction measuring cups are overflowing from a particular guy, due to how physically attractive he is, it doesn’t hurt the guy to use “game” or to be “nice”. The threshold for attraction has already been met. The women would happily be with him regardless of what attitude he took with her. He has well surpassed the attraction threshold by looks alone, so he doesn’t need to do much else to foster more attraction.

If women’s attraction measuring cups fill halfway, because they are neutral about his physical attractiveness, “game” can help to add more liquid to a woman’s attraction cup and could even possibly reach the attraction threshold line. “Game” is the faucet that adds more water to the cup, adding enough attraction to reach or even pass the threshold for female acceptance.

If women’s attraction measuring cups barely or don’t fill at all at a man’s physical appearance, “game” won’t help add enough liquid to reach the attraction threshold line. “Game” can only add so much to the cup. If a woman’s initial amount of attraction is small or nonexistent, it’s highly improbable that “game” will be enough to fill the cup up the the attraction threshold line.

“Ribbon Butterfly,

“Your man Dogsquat says you’re the man. ^_~ Call me?” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Guys were just being nice and flirting with me.”

Oh yeah!

Thanks for sharing your experiences, that’s the best way to make progress. Both personal and general. Some thoughts:

“I started medical school this fall. There are 51 women in my class of 100. To the last woman, we are all either in long-term (sometimes long-distance) relationships where the boyfriends travel to see us, or single and consumed by our passion. Oh, and one married woman who brought her husband.”

When my brother-in-law started Med School, he was already married to my sister. Her emotional and financial support was big for him. They’re still reasonably happily married with 3 healthy, interesting kids.

“(Aside: there is a lot of intra-medicine dating. In the three classes above me, 20-30% of people are dating within their own class, to say nothing of people dating between years. I think it’s because we’re the only ones who “get” each other’s schedules.)”

That, and social circles for many young people have contracted dramatically. This is masked by social media, but it is a lot harder to get to know someone via FB than it is working/playing together in some civic organization/activity, for instance.

“But there is definitely not enough quality time to nurture, grow, and maintain a new boyfriend.”

But there is enough time to run every day. Many people who don’t work out will say they lack the energy after a long day at work, but those of us who do realize that exercise is over the long run actually a source of energy. Likewise a good relationship/marriage.

“And this is just a description of life IN medical school. Before I came here, I did all of the above (though I had fewer class hours) and loved, completely and without reserve, an omega male who cheated on me in a 2.5 year relationship. And what was loyalty, and kindness, and belief in partnership worth? Nada. Lies, cheating. What a waste of time I could have spent on genuinely valuable learning, on real contributions to society.”

Yes, that’s the hidden cost of (sorry to be blunt) slumming with a herb. Relationships across too large a gap in SMV will invariably end in the weaker sabotaging the stronger and/or the relationship. Why do so many bright, attractive young women go for the herb? Topic for another thread. Glad you got out when you did, many of your sisters stick with a string into their 30’s.

“I didn’t give my whole heart to that boy”

“He didn’t even offer to think about it. And to me, that meant I didn’t matter enough.”

Principle of least interest. No pain, no gain.

“The girl who turned down a rare chance to really do something good?”

Um, not really that rare. People are really doing something good all around you all the time. Doctors like you, teachers like me, and, yes moms raising the next generation of doctors, teachers, and parents. The good you do is all about how willing you are to put your whole heart into it.

“Something on the order of 10-15% of all applicants are accepted.”

So there are a lot of other people who would fill the “really doing something good” gap if you weren’t filling it. Somehow I don’t think they would feel like you were shitting on them if you let them have the opportunity. Hey, if you’re the best and the alternatives would be far worse, get in there! Is that the case though?

“Coming back to the point – I loved him. I wasn’t sure if he loved me back, as much.”

This contradicts what you said before about not giving your heart. Look, you know the particulars, I’m not at all judging here. It’s just that you have gale force cultural winds blowing in the direction of career! career! career! and I’m trying to offer some balance.

“Here’s what the rationalization hamster would say: The calling is more alpha AND more beta than you. Dominant, demanding, and in demand – alpha. But also deadly committed, once she’s in there. It has invested more in her – for every dollar in tuition I pay, the university and government are ponying up four dollars. It offers her financial security for the future. It challenges her, and it teaches her from the best. It demands equanimity, nurturing, and devotion from her – and rewards her in equal turn.  The senior physicians consider me a junior colleague, take me under their wing, show me all that they do and all their skills. The attrition rate is less than 1% – once you’re here, everyone’s personal goal is to get you to be the best physician you can be. They want you to pass. They want you to succeed. No shit testing. Just an expectation of performance. Being held to a real standard.

It’s really hard to man up against that. Because, if that’s a hamster, I want two.”

This. Primae Noctis from hell. Spectacular writing, BTW.

“Sometimes a smart girl really is busy.”

Sometimes a smart girl really is smart. Look, my mom was a glass-ceiling busting valedictorian, but she found a teacher to marry who worked shorter hours and who could take paternity leave for two of her five children (spread out over 18 years). She made it work pretty well. Don’t give up on that.

OffTheCuff

“ignore everything I said, then. I assumed you wanted that. I have no help then.”

*sigh*..you’re making me fee like i’m a helpless case:/

ceer and chris,

sorry to conflate your posts- I cannot get this site to scroll properly at the moment so I cannot keep track properly.

To NEUTRINA,

Congratulations on your new world speed record….

Desiderius,

Ahh I see why you think I was contradicting..I don’t think I articulated clearly in words what I meant in my head, so I’ll clarify.

I’ve become phobic of committing to a guy…that is not to say that I don’t want to commit, I most certainly do. Someone who has agoraphobia is scared to go out in public, they don’t want to have that phobia but still their compulsions tell them otherwise and so their phobia gets the best of them.  Given my track record with guys though, I’m afraid to be vulnerable as I did in the past and being used like yesterday’s paper…but love takes risks, so I’m finally trying to take a risk and opening up:) In perspective, hooking up was never really that fun for me, I just told myself it was at the time because that’s what this culture has told me to believe. There was definitely a level of disconnect from my mind and body…there had to be that disconnect or wall for me or I most certainly would’ve felt disgusted with myself afterwards.

I’ve always been a relationship guy, despite periods of thinking I just want casual, but I’ve never been able to get a relationship (short or long, casual or serious) by going on the usual dating route. It’s far easier to game & sleep with the girl first, then you can choose which type of relationship you want from there. Two examples just this year:

– I hooked up with a girl earlier this year. I met her through my housemate. She was all ums and ahs about going on something as simple as a coffee catch-up. She flaked on a few suggestions without giving any alternative, but she still threw out hints that she’s keen. I gave up on her, until my housemate threw a party and she came over. Long story short, we all got drunk, she threw herself at me and I lost interest afterwards. This is supposedly a very nice girl who’s only ever been in 2 very long relationships in her life.

– I met this very smart girl (doing her PhD in an IT-related field) through a hobby, who seems interested, so I asked her to various activities, which she always turned down (“busy”) or suggested a date bomb (see Badger’s recent blog) so we never went out on a date. Again, I gave up, but she threw a houseparty, invited me over. Alcohol + hooking up, game set match. Now all of a sudden she isn’t “busy” anymore.

It’s not that I lose interest in them because I already slept with them without commitment. I’m not radical like some guys here (e.g Abbot). It’s that when I make any effort at all to date them seriously, I’m not rewarded, but when I make no effort, I am. So naturally, I do the smart thing and make the same level of effort that brought me success with them – level zero. If it fizzles out afterwards, it’s because the girls either just want casual with me, or they think I’m supposed to make a huge amount of effort now, because we’re “together”. P in V equal Serious Relationship in their book. Not in mine. Guess what they’d call me afterwards? Jerk. They made me act like one to get them, and they wonder why I behave the way I do. Although when I do amp up the jerk attitude, they can’t get enough of it and I can’t get rid of them. If I want to get rid of chicks, I amp up the NiceGuyness.

My last LTR started out like that too. She turned down or flaked on so many of my date suggestions that one night I got frustrated (she flaked on me and TXTed me she was at some other event) and curtly told her via TXT “Get your arse here. Now. No more BS.” We hooked up that night and afterwards she was at my beck & call. I was a playful jerk to her for most of that relationship. My Blue Pill male friends always had their jaws on the floor witnessing the way I teased that girl. I could tell even her chick friends wanted some of that. When I decided to end things with her, to make it easy for both of us, I switched on the Nice Guy. Worked like a beaut.

So many times I chuckled at the fact that I had to sleep with a chick just to get to go to a coffee date with her the next morning. Said chuckling is always done at that very coffee date, and the girl would ask me “what are you laughing about?”, to which I said “nothing, just some amusing thought passing my mind”.

Whenever I’m actually on a normal date with a girl I haven’t slept with, she’d make some painful effort to ensure it isn’t anything serious. I don’t chump out on dates, I’m just getting to know them, with no particular expectation. Apparently there’s not much to know. It never gets to anything serious, because they’re so uptight about spending mature one on one time together that nothing happens. To them, anything resembling a formal date is akin to a steady relationship proposal. These are 20-sth educated girls, many are the good and religious type, not party animals.

NAWALT – Nearly All Women Are Like That.

Dating is for chumps. Acting like a jerk (or better, being one) is the best way to get any type of relationship you want with women, casual or serious.

I’d love to do proper dating again, for one single reason: I can then stop drinking completely, as drinking affects my sport training performance. Bloody women wouldn’t let me.

Michael, that’s a very smart perspective! Men who commit too soon are like emotional sluts to women, and with the blue pill overload, many men are mistakenly thinking this is what women want! Well, of course it’s not, and then when this truth is combined with the fact that so many women like jerks while others still want men to be decent, it’s no damn wonder everyone’s confused. Very well-spotted, you and whoever first said that.

@ Susan

Great questions, and lucky for youI have answers to all of them lol because I had to put up with his incessant whining for weeks about his turmoil over this girl so he told me everything.

“When your friend met that girl he really liked, did it start as a hookup?

Yes (and no).

Or did he treat her well from the start?

No.

If it was just sex, did it just go from random to regular hookup to a relationship?”

Regular hookup to casual relationship.

When he first met her, he said he honestly could have cared less about her. She was a 6 and he was an 8. But they had a class together so they got to know each other, see each other at greek socials and then he started to like her for her personality and so they started casually hooking up; he would still hookup with other girls in the beginning while talking to her btw. When he saw that things could really go far with her, he stopped hooking up with other girls and only focused all his attention and energy on her. At first she was into him, but the more sweet things he started doing for her the more she became detached. He also was under the impression that she wasn’t the type of girl to go around hooking up with guys, which was another plus to him that this girl was LTR material, because of course no guy wants a girl that’s been passed around for a gf. Ok so, where was I? She became detached, said she didn’t want anything serious yet and that they should take things slow. In that time, he found out from a guy that she had hooked up with a guy while they were talking. So the girl he once thought her to be played him, and so that was the dealbreaker for him and he nixed her and is now back to his player ways.

“I’m wondering whether hooking up, or having casual sex, hardens women into wanting to be treated this way. ”

Hardens women yes, but I woudn’t necessarily say that these women want to be treated so poorly. We’ve just been used to the bad treatment so much that we kind of expect it, because we don’t know that there can be anything else that is better. And so when a guy actually does show genuine affection, we run the other way because we think he has some ulterior motive and we question his genuine good intentions to be malicious. I can vouch for myself and say that in perspective, hooking up was never really that fun for me, I just told myself it was at the time because that’s what this culture has told me to believe. There was definitely a level of disconnect from my mind and body…there had to be that disconnect or wall for me or I most certainly would’ve felt disgusted with myself afterwards.

I thought *I* was Bob,

Thanks for your input. Like I said, I’m open to meeting South Asian guys, it’s just that so far every one of them has been somewhat of a disappointment. Still holding out a little hope, though.

On the law and writing:

I’m increasingly convinced that I don’t want a legal career. There’s an oversupply of lawyers and many law schools are just cash cows. I would most likely be throwing away a lot of my future by getting a JD. I’m looking at grad school/business school, but it just seems like higher education is such a risky bet now (but if I don’t go, few things would mortify my parents more lol).

I’ve been focusing on writing more. I already have a short screenplay, the first act of a feature-length screenplay, and a couple spec scripts under my belt, but they’re all shit so I’m still writing in the hopes that something good happens. Improv is also supposed to help with developing dialogue. It’s been hard finding time to write when I get so busy at work, but I just need to make the time. Maybe I’ll just start by commenting less on blogs.

(Thanks for the link, btw.)

my friends back at my old job at DR were telling among themselves how pretty I looked and there was this new girl that never meet me, telling them that “she is not pretty”. Now logically speaking I shouldn’t care I got at least 11 likes and compliments but deep down it sting me a bit, specially because she went out of her way to give a contrary opinion about a stranger, maybe I didn’t looked that pretty after all.

Um. Why is she even allowed to see your profile? Block that rude bitch.

Obviously “the game” works and has some relevency here… if it didn’t, we wouldn’t be discussing it.  But it’s disheartening.  I’d much rather we stop indulging this behavior and start rewarding honesty. The character in that first clip just isn’t attractive to me… and I can’t possibly be alone in that thinking.

You are not.  I’ve read just a few of your comments and you actually remind me of the commenter Ozy.  You both seem much more attracted to the beta type personality rather than the alpha personality, and your attitudes toward casual sex and especially the nonchalance about multiple partners is very similar.  I believe you are both very male-brained because essentially you have typical male sexual preferences.  The average guy is going to prefer a beta type women (nice, sweet, etc.) over alpha (aloof, indifferent, cocky) and most men can be pretty nonchalant about multiple partners.  We have a few male commenters who are the exact opposite with a strong preference for a single partner with heavy emotional attachment.  I think there is a typical male sexuality and typical female sexuality but there are a small minority of each sex who have the sexuality preferences of the other sex.  I’d bet that many women who exhibit your stated sexuality preferences also exhibit many other typical male behaviors.

@Anacaona

Do I consider myself heavily influenced? At the time when I was hooking up, yes I was heavily influenced due to the environment I was in, which was mainly greeks and it was just the norm, so I followed suit. If anything I felt like something was wrong with me if I wasn’t following the trend. But having since then removed myself from that crowd as it repulses me, I’m not influenced by it anymore.

“I ask because both my mother and me grew up in very conservative household, my mother even endured physical punishment still left to our own devices never made sense for us to break the rules, of course is a different enviroment but still I never saw a group of half drunk people and though to myself “that looks like fun”

Are you saying you endured physical punishment from your mother or your mother received it from your father/father-figure in your household?

BF,

“Uh… also thanks. I think. After looking at all of this manosphere stuff, that reads like negging and qualifying and disqualifying (?) and a lot of other -ings I don’t have a solid feel for the definitions of.”

Heh.

I wasn’t gaming you. Logical argument is anti-game. Bros before, um, brilliant Canadians. Badger has dibs. Besides, I’m looking for someone closer to my age, even if I have to Petruchio her up.

The eliminating anti-game (approval-seeking) part of game is the stuff that helps in all walks of life. The manipulating female attraction triggers part (negging, disqualifying) should be kept to the minimum necessary (Kant would not be amused), and is rarely necessary at all outside of pursuing a possible mate. I will game the alpha female of a high school class for 20 seconds or so to win the class over – works like a charm!

“I feel pretty ambivalent about all of that, and arguing with you about why I really am pretty awesome seems like a dumb thing to do.”

Self-awe can leave one feeling awful.

“You were right that I wrote I loved the blue-eyed man while holding back a piece of myself. I will clarify on this point: I loved him 90% and couldn’t bear to give that last 10% without knowing he would come with me, or at least have a good tangible reason not to come with me. Some may say that was foolish. I still don’t know. But I made my choice and I’m pretty content. Wistfulness for my blue-eyed man doesn’t negate all the other measures by which I’m fulfilled right now.”

I made a similar decision at a similar age. If we’re to have an awesomeness contest, I could point out that she was a valedictorian and prom queen (if it were a lie, it would be more plausible). She wanted to stay near family, I wanted to chase the brass ring. Back then, we didn’t hold back the 10%. Same outcome though.

I consider it now a mistake.

“Could you provide an explanation for what you meant by “Primae Noctis from hell,” though? I don’t understand that part, and I hesitate to misinterpret.”

That gets substantially off topic. Let’s just say that if Mongol hordes were riding by and carrying away the best women of the communities across the developed world, the result would not be much different, and your paragraph describes in strikingly visceral language how it feels being so carried.

The tragedy is the source of those four dollars.

Desiderius,

If you didn’t care you wouldn’t be here. More reductio ad absurdum (by exaggerating the extent of dark triad behavior so you could say it didn’t fit your experience) than agree and amplify, but in either case not making the effort to fit the new idea into your old worldview, but distorting it so that the worldview remains unthreatened.

Can’t really accuse me of reductio ad absurdum when you are guilty of doing all sorts of acrobatics here. I said I didn’t care about being honest over the internet since I have nothing to lose from it. It’s there for all to see further upthread so how exactly that managed to be spun into my not caring about anything AT ALL with regards to this topic is a little puzzling. Oh well.

… that’s my point. It was the upbringing that produced the satisfaction, not your hindbrain. That upbringing is a powerful thing. As a high school teacher, I’m surrounded every day by nubile young women who do not arouse me (men don’t need blood-flow monitors to tell, if you know what I mean) because of that upbringing.

Well, yes. You’re right but I hadn’t actually denied that my upbringing is the main reason why I reward the type of men and behaviour I do. I’m fortunate that my folks made the effort and didn’t take that awkward ‘parents as best friends’ route.

If naked self-interest is more your thing, check what is happening with the birth rates in Europe and the implications for their pension systems. Coming soon here should we not change course. Breeder shaming => death panels.

But why shouldn’t it be naked self-interest? Maybe I’d be more willing if every other girl wasn’t already undercutting me by putting out quickly, rewarding the worst in men and just generally behaving like a bitch in heat. I am *not* being a team player. Like, at all. What’s the point? There’s literally nothing I can do on an individual level beyond avoiding making their mistakes. And that’s assuming they even care about the consequences which they bloody well DON’T.
They all need to slam face first into the Wall tbh. It’s a bit sadistic but a collective cock-up is pretty much the only way future generations will learn. Besides, if they genuinely cared, they would have started their own Femosphere by now. The men have done it so why can’t they?

And what’s a breeder death panel? O_o

If you had a religious upbringing, there should be some resources there if you are legitimately interested in knowing. BTW Donne was the bad boy alpha to top all bad boy alphas, then he found more interesting lands to conquer.

Oh, I’m already familiar with Donne. He was the essay topic for our entire last year of high school literature alongside Richard Sheridan and Wilfred Owen so this brings back weird memories. I don’t have M. XVII in my Wordsworth edition (green copy) so I’ll print this out for later. Thanks for the link!

Dave,

Sex is not a need but, rather, a want… Will you die without it… No of course not therefore it is not a need.

Someone mentioned previously about not dating for 3 years,

I too have not dated for 3 1/2 years due to being in a relationship and to be honest everything being said on here is kind of making me feel wary about dating again especially as I have quite strong principles… It kind of makes me feel like I don’t stand a chance of meeting the love of my life.

-Aaron

Do you see what I’m saying here? Even if the Brothers Karamazov scene actually happened somewhere, once, in the world, it’s still funny/ridiculous because it’s so incredible, ie literally impossible to believe. The idea that there are a significant (ie not insignificant) number of women sitting in bookstores lusting (“insanely hot”) after men deep into _Guns, Germs and Steel_, and that said lust comes primarily from that reason, is on its face simply ludicrous. Yeah, if the guy is handsome and already attractive for that reason, then seeing him with a trendy, thought-provoking book in his hands might be fodder to amplify the attraction; but that’s a different story. What you wrote suggested the thoughtful book is the primary reason he’s attractive, which is — how shall I put this? — greatly at odds with reality as we know it; if that were true at any significant level, then many, many, many observations about the world would be different.

I’m not sure this is true. I’ve had some recent pick up success by chatting women up about literature. And also, the first time I made love to my ex-fiancee was on a starry night that we sat in a grassy field drinking wine from a bottle while reading the poetry of e. e. cummings.

Some women like that type of thing.

Breeder shaming => death panels.

And what’s a breeder death panel? O_o

I think the idea is that a declining birth rate produces a population of productive age that is too small to support (that is, keep alive) a relatively larger population of non-productive age, especially when it comes to expensive medical procedures. In this case somebody is going to have to decide who lives and who dies–thus, “death panels.”

I think the idea is that a declining birth rate produces a population of productive age that is too small to support (that is, keep alive) a relatively larger population of non-productive age, especially when it comes to expensive medical procedures. In this case somebody is going to have to decide who lives and who dies–thus, “death panels.”

Not a pretty picture, but still the best option in the long run. Planet earth is only so big, with only so much space to live & grow food, & the last few centuries the human race has been breeding like a bunch of highly caffeinated rabbits. Or perhaps more accurately, lemmings. Expansion has to end sometime. Better for every species on the planet (including us) that that be sooner rather than later.

Dr. Ribbon Butterfly,

All this discussion is giving me palpitations. Stop by my blog for a consult and leave a comment.

@Jesus
I love your one-act. I’d post it if it wouldn’t leave thousands of lurking readers scratching their heads and wondering if I fell into a holding tank of Chardonnay.

Thanks. It just was a minute or two of fun. Fortunately I don’t have to worry about my reputation as a blogger.

@Jesus

I am totally on board with what you have to say

Hmm that’s very interesting. Perhaps it was your upbringing and family dynamics that came into play that caused you and your siblings to never break the rules, but most importantly I would say your character has a very heavy influence on you as well. I also was physically reprimanded as a child, but not quite to the extent that you’re describing so although that’s probably one of the reasons where we differ in our choices on sex, our characters, my tendency to ‘disobey’ versus your tendency to ‘obey’ is the biggest difference.

Who knows? I do have an anecdote everyone in the neighborhood knew how bad my grandpa was with my mother and her siblings and one of the “old ladies” there told her that if she was her she would ran out with the worst thugs of the neighborhood to teach her father a lesson. My mother pondered this for a few minutes and though to herself “That is stupid, that will hurt ME not my father” never spoke to that woman again, she was 14.

Not a pretty picture, but still the best option in the long run. Planet earth is only so big, with only so much space to live & grow food, & the last few centuries the human race has been breeding like a bunch of highly caffeinated rabbits. Or perhaps more accurately, lemmings. Expansion has to end sometime. Better for every species on the planet (including us) that that be sooner rather than later.

Still economically speaking there won’t be new fresh blood, we will need a whole revolution in production in order to stabilize the planet death panels or not. The problem is not the population but consumerism. Every person in the first world consumes and uses three times more goods that people in the third world, so the solution to having to allow the government to kill our fathers and grandfathers is to reduce the consumerism but still reproducing to replacement level. Not having children but spending that time and money in cars, travels, fancy dinners with imported goods, big houses and apartments full of electrical devices is what burdens the planet, YMMV.

Agree completely with Jesus.

SW: “I trace my beginning as a listener and giver of advice to my willingness to share stories of my own stupid mistakes. We like talking to people who are imperfect, it’s reassuring. I enjoy sharing my history of stupid moves, but I think I must be unusual in this. Many of the young women who confide in me tell me that they could never tell their moms the same stories, which is so sad. They’re afraid of not measuring up to expectations.”

IDK. Hearing somebody talk about a mistake I would never make and advice how to avoid might feel good to me, but hearing about a mistake I might make or that I am about to make and how to avoid it is better.

And getting advice from someone whose natural strengths I dont have on how to succeed is most often a waste of time. But of course I might be able to extrapolate some general truths from it and use them to develop my own strengths to the maximum.

@ Cody

I would say not every woman in her early 20’s knows what she wants consistently throughout each of her years. It changes with experiences and people. One year she may want a relationship, and another her situation may change to think otherwise.

As to your comment about the dating rules always being written by women and men adapting and adjusting them, all I have to say to that is: adapting and adjusting, hmm doesn’t that sound like what happens during revision? I feel the tides shifting and men are slowly but surely revising the rules.

@Yohami

As Susan said there’s no way to verify these numbers, but yes they seem quite realistic I agree.

@Michael of Charlotte

So far the take away I’ve gotten from this thread was the comparison, I believe by Heidi between nice guys and sluts.  I believe the comment went that nice guys were seen as being willing to commit to anyone.  This, in turn, turned her off the same way slutty women make it impossible for men (or at least me) to view them as appealing for anything long term.  In both cases, it’s the lack of discernment that seems to kill the attraction.

That’s an angle that never occurred to me, but it makes so much sense.

I used to know one man whom I wouldn’t hesitate to describe as a “nice guy,” and he certainly gave off a similar vibe. It wasn’t as simple as a lack of discernment, though, or the desperation in which any girl will do. He seemed to think, “I’m decent, kind, respectful, and willing to demonstrate my affection, which are all good things, and a girl who values these things is exactly the sort of girl I want to be with.”

So there was a filter there, but also the paradoxical sense that he didn’t have high standards for a partner. For instance (and this is just one example), I’m betting that he wouldn’t have cared if a woman achieved a double-digit partner count in college, as long as she had honestly come to repent of it and realized that she should have been seeking decent men (like him?) rather than chasing after jerks. And if you think about it, that’s very admirable of him . . . But I can totally imagine women who never made those sort of mistakes not wanting to be with a man who could so easily overlook them. Why date someone who puts “reformed sluts” in the same league as you?

Men might not like price discrimination, but women arguably do!

Its seems clear that the dating rules are being written by men, and women must follow to these standards if they want to have successful LTRs.

Women are perfectly capable of ruling out men that have “had their fun” too. They just don’t seem to be too enthusiastic about it…

Heidi said:

“and now to find out you’re an atheist, too?”.

I’m about 75% Atheist, and 25% Agnostic, if that makes sense.  I have seen too much needless suffering to find the idea of a “just, loving God” even remotely credible.

There might be something out there, perhaps as discussed by Carl Sagan – the God that made 3.14159 relevant anywhere in the Universe.  Maybe God is our best approximation of something/some being so unimaginably complex and pervasive that our tiny meat-filled heads just can’t comprehend It.

I wish I was a believer.  I’ve tried.  It’d be nice to honesty believe there’s a divine, loving plan for everyone.  Even the little kid I transported recently – the one who spends about 3 hours per day having tonic-clonic seizures, and the rest of his time being neglected by his mom.

I honestly don’t look down on religious folks.  I am jealous of them.

“I commend you for TRYING non-monogamy… that’s a brave thing to do for most people, let alone for someone who pretty much knows monogamy is his thing. “

Heidi, it wasn’t as brave as you might think.  I was head over heels with a super hot professional dancer.  She told me she was bi from the get go.  Round about six months into our relationship, she mentioned that another super hot dancer from her company had a crush on me, and would I be open to a threesome?

Despite my various peccadilloes, chronicled exhaustively on this marvelous stand-in for the psychologist I ought to see weekly, I am a red-blooded American man. I was penis-bound to accept.

Plus, I’d been reading a lot of Heinlein at the time, and trying to absorb and implement some of that Old Sage’s advice into my life – smooth out the rough spots, if you will.

Things went really well for a couple months, and then the other girl moved in with us.

Have you seen that film of the Hindenburg blowing up?

This was ten times as bad.

I learned many valuable lessons from that experience.  A few of them are extremely beneficial to me still.  Most were rather more negative, consisting mostly of highlighting various “deal-breakers” I have.

“My point was that the nurse was TERRIBLE because she was one of those “traveling” nurses, and this was her first day at that hospital. She had no idea where anything was located and was completely useless when it came to helping me.”

Good nurses get taken for granted.  You can’t just plug in a random RN to any unit and expect to get good care.  It takes time on a unti and familarity with the way things work to provide good nursing.  When it happens, it’s magic.  When it doesn’t, patients suffer.

Hell, I had to switch ambulances halfway through my shift today .  Most of the stuff is in the same place, but not everything.  I’m lucky I didn’t have anybody really gorked out for the first few calls after the switch.  They would have died while I was looking for EKG pads and the IV tubing.

Dogsquat Chronicles #502: “I was head over heels with a super hot professional dancer.  She told me she was bi from the get go.  Round about six months into our relationship, she mentioned that another super hot dancer from her company had a crush on me, and would I be open to a threesome?”

To think, they say the secret in life is not to peak too soon.

@Desiderius. Oh, so I did read it right the first time, you meant Tolstoi. (I prefer Oblomov to Oblonskij, though.)

And if i understand you correctly you’re saying that womens’ attitude towards alphas is equally utilitarian than the other way round?

Did anyone ever have the slightest doubt? Seriously?

The whole point of game I thought was to develop a weapon against this utilitarian aspect of the female mind and turn the tables on them.

Traditional women designed a culture for centuries, brainwashing men so women never have to work or design technologies & education to make up for their reduced logical & rational biology.

Doesn’t say much for the cognitive abilities of men if illogical, irrational women have been leading them around by the nose for centuries does it. =]

Actually its quite easy to brainwash anyone as long as theres a large enough consensus, & not enough information to counter it

ie, the middle ages, women have been paying a MASSIVE price for staying at home, & using men as slaves,

Theyve become EXACTLY the same as aristocratic inbreds,

These aristocrats are so rich theyve literally lost all touch with reality, theyre ridiculously highly irrational illogical, entitled,

& so out of touch with reality they indulge every vapid stupidity of their sexuality

Women have been taught by traditionalist women to stay at home, & use men as slaves, for centuries, they have become literally so domesticated, they have literally no self preservation skills

What men & women especially, dont realise logic & reason are ALL vital parts of self preservation

Not indulging your need to sleep with alphas & revering betas, ie following your biological imperative & raising a family, is also a vital part of self preservation

It is precisely because women from years of traditionalism, have no sense of self preservation, sleep around & indulge their need to sleep with alphas

NOT because of feminism, feminism merely normalised & popularised all the dangers of not having to face the harsh nature of a post industrial world, ie they popularised the lack of a sense of self preservation, into modern day popular culture

ie it became hip & trendy to sleep around, ie go against your self preservation need to have children & raise a family

It is also precisely because women have been bred for centuries, to stay at home & use men as slaves, theyve become highly irrational & have virtually no sense of logic, precisely because they have no self preservation skills

Domesticate anyone for long enough, & you get mentally delusional women, unable to rationalise or logic, & flock to alphas as they loose all sense of their self preservation skills, over the centuries

You see exactly the same effect on rich aristocratic men, domesticated & so out of touch with reality, they become highly irrational & highly illogical, while indulging every stupidity of their vapid sex life, ie s&m paedophilia etc

What we’re seeing is NOT the result of feminism, but the result of CENTURIES of domesticated women & the use of men as wallets & wage slaves, slavery to the point women have lost all the basic skills of self preservation,

from years of not having to participate in any real hard back breaking labour or real endeavours, all of which require facing the dangers of modern day life

@Saywhaat

You’re welcome.

Grad school outside the STEM fields probably isn’t cost-effective. My wife says students pursuing a masters degree are the cash cows at her school. Many are looking for a least effort credential.

The unemployment rate is over 10% but there’s a labor shortage in tech fields.

Good Hunting!

@SayWhaat

I will tell you what my job counselor told us when we were having the class. Find your passion and make a career out of it. Why? Because all careers are more or less equally hard to become successful in anyway. You might as well do something you are passionate about. But you need to set yourself goals and have a plan. Having a degree is just the beginning, then you need to start to network connect and overall work into making it a career after is in your hands. Good luck in anything you might choose

this is absolutely crazy.  and i’m not trying to be insulting or put anyone’s views down but can’t …people just….be who they want to be?  and act how they want to?  putting up a front to get a mate, whether it be fore the short term or long term, will not get anyone anywhere.  i mean if someone has a positive, genuine connection with someone that should just shine through, shouldn’t it?  like the OP said (can i say that?) perhaps the girl just wasn’t that into him…okay so it’s not meant to be great now you know.  now he’s mad because he didn’t get to get sex out of the deal?  or…does he think that if he had sex with her, he’d have gotten to be closer with her?   either way, it’s lame because it turns out she isn’t the kind of person he’d want to be with , most likely, right?  if someone wants pure sex that bad there are definitely ways to find it without the maybe intentions of getting an actual long-term partner out of it.  i dunno.  it just worries me because the few relationships i have had were just…easy and effortless to begin with.  i didn’t think about stuff like this and i dont think the guys thought of stuff like that.  PS i’m also still rather young maybe that has something to do with it.

@hillary
The OP is angry because the girl started jerking him around.
He may have had a chance to have sex with her. We (and he) can’t be sure because for whatever reason he didn’t go for it. If she didn’t want to see him any more she could have found a better way, even if she was unhappy with him for not going for it.

@thefemaleperspective
I didn’t say you have to have his children, at least not right away. The IUD has come a long way since the Dalkon Shield. I said you shouldn’t get intimate with him unless you want to. Anything less is a waste of your time and his and doomed to end besides.
I don’t know how old you are, but your outcomes most certainly will be better if you have your children before age 30. Believe me I know. No guarantees, but that’s the way to bet.

@ TFP

It’s nice to have a non-feminist female voice on Susan’s blog.

I have a critique for your argument that women have high numbers because they don’t understand what they want.

Most girls don’t have high numbers because they date great guys. It’s because they just enjoy having sex with guys knowing that there will be no possibility of a long-term relationship. If you’re hooking up with a guy at a drunken frat party then don’t tell me that’s because of “not knowing what you want”…

By the way, it’s not hypocritical because because it’s commonly acknowledged that men have a hard time hooking-up. You have to be a congressman in order to hook-up with a college slut.

@Desiderius regarding religion:

I’m cool with where I am.  Perhaps when my wyrd brings me to another place I will again investigate.  I saved your recommendation and will probably check it out some time down the road.

As far as my patients go – most of the time I spend with them is insuring they delay firsthand experience of the afterlife.  I crack a few jokes here and there if the situation warrants, but for the most part my proselyting is limited to the benefits of seatbelts, limiting booze/heroin/meth/toluene intake, or maybe, just maybe, getting a primary care doc and following that doc’s instructions.

Dogsquat,

“I crack a few jokes here and there if the situation warrants, but for the most part my proselyting is limited to the benefits of seatbelts, limiting booze/heroin/meth/toluene intake, or maybe, just maybe, getting a primary care doc and following that doc’s instructions.”

Your work, and your approach to it, is greatly appreciated.

Spent a summer here as a chaplain to a brain trauma unit of a Children’s Hospital, so know just enough to be dangerous.

Do know this – ain’t got nothing to do with proselytizing.

Heh – the one obvious thing is the right partner, but he isn’t part of the calculation these days. That is a problem.

I don’t understand why the female perspective is so concerned about men judging her for a casual past. She has less than 10 partners….unless you are 18 to 20 years old that is nothing these days. I’m not sure what you’re worried about, but if you let it bother you, it will come through. Your attitude is your best and worst ally. As long as you get your mind and attitude straight, your behaviour patterns should follow. If you fall back into the bad attitude “men are boring, I need excitement” camp and open up your own personal brothel…well, you made your bed.

It’s not hard for women to say they want to marry

Susan, how many girls do you, or have you known, that were in the early to mid 20s and absolutely wanted to get married? Maybe not at that moment, but, eventually. What percentage?

Maybe, at least 75%? (The exact number is unimportant)

Now, how many girls, in public, actually say this? How many girls, on their online dating profiles, are honest about this?

I know what you are going to say, “Well, they don’t want t scare away the guys”. And you may be right. But, it is still a game.

Your average young woman wants to get married much more than the average young guy (including those young men that really want a monogamous relationship). But the average girl, at least publicly, still does not own up to that.

@Susan & @Jesus Mahoney

What I respect about you is your brutal honesty with yourself and others. That makes you a trustworthy person. I’m not criticizing TFP’s choices, but I am criticizing the dishonesty of her explanation (I didn’t know what I wanted at the time), because if she uses that on a man she really cares for, how is he supposed to believe that? And if he can’t believe her, then he can’t trust her. She was clearly hot for frat douche bags in some way or another. And, I would say, that if she continued with the casual hook up script beyond 3 men, then she was getting something out of it that she considered valuable at the time.

I think ultimately this is what put me off about my ex. The # definitely put me off, but the justification was probably what killed it. Her variation on, “I didn’t know what I wanted,” was, “I was young. I didn’t know what I was doing,” as if being young made her mentally challenged, as if men told her it was like a french cruller and if she sucked hard enough she’d get the creamy filling out. She knew damn well what she was doing. How’s a man supposed to move beyond a woman’s past when it’s clear she isn’t even taking responsibility for that past?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t a large part of Susan’s husband’s initial rejection of her his perception that she was casual and not serious, and that his later acceptance of her came when she convinced him that she was actually interested in (and capable of) commitment?

You and other guys keep referring to frats and popular “hot” guys. Is this possibly the main issue?

No

What if a girl’s past partners were a bunch of fringe, nerdy guys and STEM majors, and she slept with zero popular guys?

Wanna-be rockstars can also be on the “fringe” and get lots of ass.

A slovenly girl is still slovenly.

Before racism became the greatest evil that ever existed, “discriminating” people were respected. That word was considered a compliment.

It’s hard to remember what number would’ve been a lot at that time but I guess 10 in college would’ve made me think the girl was a sl#t. Most of my friends, and myself, were in the mindset that you needed to find a girl to be in a relationship with. So we acted that way. I only found out after college that girls were not thinking this way. As soon as I hit late 20’s though, they started to panic and their desperation came to the surface. It was too late for me by then. I’m not someone’s saviour. You should be looking for the right person, instead of just someone when it’s convenient for you. That’s why most marriages are doomed when you look at girls in their late 20s / early 30s today. Predicated on selfish attitudes.

I’m curious. I want to find a great man to settle down with early. I have always been discerning when it comes to mate selection. I don’t have a partner count above 5. I’m 23 years old and I’m searching for husband material now. My question is, how easy will it be for me to set myself apart from the many women who “have their fun” while young, then become desperate for husbands later in life after jumping off the “carousel”?.

I imagine many men will have a hard time believing someone like me hasn’t ridden countless alpha men, since they believe most women do at some point in their lives before settling down. How can I hope that a guy won’t peg me as that type of woman when men are accosted by so many “husband hungry” women in their late 20s/early thirties after they are done with the “carousel” lifestyle?

FTR, 95% of my “number” consists of engineering, writing, and science geeks. Douche bags are a turn-off… Generally anyone showing disinterest, anyone playing mind games, or anyone whose actions caused me to doubt myself or my abilities, were all off the table.

But again, I only fuck my friends. And I care about and love my friends. If they treated me poorly, or I found them uninteresting, they wouldn’t be on the list. (And it just so happens I find the geeks interesting.)

Objection. The opposite of discriminating is not slovenly. Leave the value judgments at the door.

I wasn’t saying they were opposites.

She wanted to know if a girl who wasn’t blowing frat boys, but instead was blowing STEM nerds, was better off. For a few, she might be, but, in general, notches are notches.

I got married when I was in my mid-20s. I know several others that have gotten married in their mid-20s as well.

Hope, that was absolutely NOT the point I was making. I am perfectly aware that people have gotten married before the age of 27.

“Hope, that was absolutely NOT the point I was making. I am perfectly aware that people have gotten married before the age of 27.”

So what point are you making? That young girls wanting to be married is not covered more in the mainstream media? That feminists have been saturating the public voice with “delay marriage”? If that’s your point, I don’t disagree.

But if your point is that girls are collectively playing a power game by not talking about it, then I don’t really agree. I told guys I was dating back in high school what I wanted, to be married at some point in the future. If no girl ever told you this, then maybe it’s a different issue.

So what point are you making? That young girls wanting to be married is not covered more in the mainstream media?

No, that they themselves are not saying out loud in public. They may say it to Susan and Co when they are in one of there sessions, but not out loud in public.

They are consciously choosing not to share this information.

I told guys I was dating back in high school what I wanted, to be married at some point in the future.

Hope, this is not about anecdote, but data.

@Ramble

I am not saying it is “coldly political”. I am barely saying it is political at all.

“Coldly” was my adjective, of course, but you’re the one who brought up the idea of losing power. So I naturally assumed the discussion was political.

And if this is not about what you want or what you respect, who are you claiming to speak for when you say they won’t be respected?

Back to your original post:

But you do not hear the mid 20′s girls saying, “I want, at some point in the near future, to get married. I want to start a family.”

Actually, I hear it a lot. The young women usually come from Evangelical Christian families. They don’t look for outside employment, but help their mothers run the family home. They are open about doing so until they get married, upon which they will keep house for their husbands.

I respect these girls and wish them the best, but given those culture wars you bring up, can you see why a more “mainstream” young woman who already has reasons to reject Evangelical Christianity wouldn’t want to be aligned with them? It’s not about her being deliberately deceitful, but about her not wanting to be shamed. It’s the same reason virgins are pressured to keep their own number secret.

So when the girls that Susan knows talk to her about marriage, is that data?

Hope, are you even reading the things you are responding to?

Again,

No, that they themselves are not saying out loud in public. They may say it to Susan and Co when they are in one of there sessions, but not out loud in public.

===============================

I used to frequent other online forums where the girls are in their 20s, in LTRs and talking to their boyfriends about wanting to get married, but the guys were the reluctant ones.

Oh, I absolutely believe that these girls are talking about these things online. And I am positive that they “test the waters” with their BFs.

What I am saying is this: Girls will be out and proud abut their desire for, and interest in, things like, Education, Entertainment, Wine/Cocktails, Career (and maybe even children). But, in general, I am not hearing 26 and 27 year old girls saying, out loud, “And we want to get married”.

And I think it is for the reason that you just listed. They want to and their BF’s do not.

So I naturally assumed the discussion was political.

Again, I think that their would be political repercussions, but that was not my main point.

And if this is not about what you want or what you respect, who are you claiming to speak for when you say they won’t be respected?

I am not a huge Soccer fan, but it is the most popular sport in the world. My perspective is not the most important when discussing these topics. We are capable of generalizing outside of our very specific experience.

The young women usually come from Evangelical Christian families. They don’t look for outside employment, but help their mothers run the family home. They are open about doing so until they get married, upon which they will keep house for their husbands.

As interesting as that is, you do understand how unusual that is in Modern America, right?

Again, we might want to generalize outside of our very specific experience.

…and why you think it’s so repulsive

I am not sure I said it was repulsive.

I wouldn’t say it’s a game as much as a strategy.

You do understand that strategies are used for games?

@Ramble

I am not sure I said it was repulsive. 

Pardon my rhetorical flourishes. I was just acknowledging that you don’t like it.

You do understand that strategies are used for games?

They’re also used for business . . . and for war. I’m just pointing out that you’re not just dealing with flighty “players” who just want to have fun. But you’re holding against some young women what even you admit is a justified decision, and it’s not clear why.

Well then it’s the same as guys suppressing their eager desire to be doormats and share their oneitis with their adored.

You lost me. Could you rephrase that?

@Ramble: “That girls are NOT saying this amongst mixed company in the Dorm rooms
That girls are NOT saying this amongst mixed company at House parties.
That girls are NOT saying this when shooting the breeze in the lunch room ”

Yeah, but you said “they do not say” — which does not imply they do not “do.” They might be also saying it to other girls they know they can confide in, or saying it by virtue of being married before 30. For example I had several coworkers who were married before 30, and I was friends with a married woman before I met my husband. She was older than me but who had gotten married young as well.

Perhaps it was “lazy” for me to not be able to read your mind to know exactly what you meant by “you do not hear the mid 20′s girls saying XYZ.” I thought you meant that mid 20’s girls are simply not interested in marriage, so I countered that with my own example and example from girls I knew. But apparently you want something more like the bullet point you listed above. Why?

Honestly, in regards to women being honest with men about their desire to be married, wouldn’t it be a little redundant? For the most part, men already assume that women want to get married. Some men take this knowledge and welcome it, while other men step back from it because they are the “non-committal” variety.

Also, some women aren’t as completely honest about their desire to get married with the men in their lives because they don’t want to put pressure on the men. Even after post-modern times, it is still expected for men to propose or to lead a relationship towards marriage, not women. I’ve heard countless stories of men who dragged their feet about getting married to their girlfriends because they felt pressured. Their women made it clear that they wanted to get married, and the men felt like they were backed into a corner. Whether we like it or not, most women’s fate to be married or not lies in the hands of men, just like the fate of whether or not sex happens lies in the hands of women. If either party feels pressured in their respective exchanges, the party in command no longer wants it.

I would rather a man I’m dating come to the decision that he wants to marry me of his own volition, not that he felt like he was pressured to or that he had to to please me.

@Sassy

I’ve heard countless stories of men who dragged their feet about getting married to their girlfriends because they felt pressured. Their women made it clear that they wanted to get married, and the men felt like they were backed into a corner. Whether we like it or not, most women’s fate to be married or not lies in the hands of men, just like the fate of whether or not sex happens lies in the hands of women.

There’s another source of pressure to keep quiet about what you really want. No woman wants to be the pushy, desperate girlfriend, even if she already is that deep inside.

Sue,

Maybe. A lot of people do go along to get along. That’s sad when people are willing to go that far along in order to get along. It’s sad that when the cost of membership into any group is one’s integrity–there are still plenty of buyers. It’s too depressing to be involved with someone like that.

I’ve tried being upfront about my serious desire to be married before, and ended up shooting myself in the other foot.

Again, I will try to respond to this later.

“That girls will say these things privately, but not publicly.”

Definitions differ. What if girls do talk about it amongst themselves? Is that public? Susan’s girls did. That’s not necessarily over the lunch table at high school, but it is “girl talk.” Or what about girls talking about weddings, gowns, engagements, The Bachelorette / The Bachelor, and other such TV shows? I’ve known lots of girls to do that in public, and the subtext is pretty clear. Now I’m not exactly a fan of the wedding fantasy industry, but it’s very much out there in public.

Feminine styles of communication are less overt than masculine styles. I might be an outlier in that I prefer more direct, honest and open dialogue, but I do “get” what girls are insinuating most of the time. Maybe guys just don’t, and that’s why they think this dialogue doesn’t happen at all.

@Rmax, yeah, my grandparents toiled in 3rd world conditions, too. As for me, I grew up in Communist China and immigrated to the US because my parents were here when Tiananmen Square happened. I know about all crushing poverty and having to scrounge for water and saving electricity and not having first world luxuries because until I was a teenager I was living that way.

The question is, what about YOU? Where are your credentials?

Definitions differ. What if girls do talk about it amongst themselves? Is that public?

My argument was not meant to be semantic. I will try to say this yet again:

[At House Party with plenty of guys and girls]
Girl 1: Did you see the Jenny cheated on Mark on Mad Men?
Girl 2: OMG, really?
Girl 3: Yeah, it was with that Spanish guy, right?
Girl 1: Right, and he was kinda yucky too.
Girl 4: God, I would love to go to Spain.
Girl 1: Me, too.
Girl 5: Me, too…and Paris. You thought he was yucky? I thought he was kinda hot.
Girl 1: Well, I don’t like what he said to her afterwards. I wouldn’t want to be with a guy like that.
Girl 5: I didn’t say I wanted t marry him.
Girl 2: Oh god, I would love to get married.
[CRICKET! CRICKET!]

The girls will go on and on about all of the things they love (and hate) and want and all the rest of it. But never a word comes out about wanting, genuinely wanting to get married. Travel to Europe, or the Caribbean? Sure. Excited about the new season of Mad Men? You betcha. Wanting to move to the City? Absolutely.

Marriage? Nope.

To Susan, an online survey, amongst their girlfriends? Yes. Amongst mixed company? No.

I will give you an anecdote: some time ago a friend of mine, on a somewhat meager salary, went out and bout a brand new car. Suddenly, his girlfriends friends al started making jokes about the two of them driving around in her engagement ring (i.e. he could no longer get her a ring, because he spent the money).

She had never brought up marriage with him. None of her friends, at least amongst any of us guys, ever brought up marriage at any point. His girlfriend, even afterwards, still would not say that she was hoping he would propose…she would just shoot him looks. The hens were terrible.

This was an interesting, but not isolated incident.

Girls do much better with men…

Again, I was not trying to comment on what any specific girl should do. But I was trying to describe what I am seeing. And, at least initially, you seemed to disagree.

However, I am not sold on the idea that girls, in their aggregate, being publicly quiet in mixed company about their desire for marriage is doing them well.

I think that a lot of the modest girls that email you are being partially victimized by this.

At it’s extreme, it works a little like this:
Men: Hey, by the third date we get to cum on your face or no deal.
Girls: Hey, we are not that kind of girl(s)
Men: Bullshit.

There is a message out there, whether accurate or not, that is saying, “We want to have our fun. We want to do exciting things. We want to live in Cosmopolitan cities. We want to visit exotic locales. etc.”

There is not a message of, “We want to get married. We want to have children. We want to raise a family.”

I am willing to argue that if the latter message were to drown out the former, those girls emailing you would do much, much better.

Could it be possibly that as far as Women (or Men) not being widely public about their desires for marriage/commitment early on is beyond an individual basis? Girls may be saying it and saying it in private and confidential quarters, but they get pressure from our very own society thanks to feminism which nearly everyone is being forced to bend and mold their actions and views because of; but also the real change of the SMP. More Men have opted to retard their movement towards marriage and commitment (for whatever reasons) and so women have picked up on that and acting accordingly, protecting themselves. And then you also have another type of demonizing of the desire from other sources that portray women in a light of destructive negativity who make this desire known so outright.

Everyone does well to find some power in their vulnerabilities and their fears, it won’t ruin your life. Most men have been doing this first hand for years, and i’ve seen it suggested that women could learn from this to learn to take away the fear and power of rejection. But why each group does this is definitely understandable.

I don’t think women are just deciding to keep this a secret, and postpone it’s revelation later because it came to them on a coffee break. The influence has been built and structured for decades that has harmed them and made it more difficult for them to get what they truly want, and in turn it’s ended up hurting men, and that has come back again to it hurting women again.

A woman i was involved with struggled with this herself. She was self sufficient, paying her way through school, working full time, and when i asked her what she would be if she wanted to be anything (because she had multiple talents and passions), she said she wanted to be a Wife and a Mother.  And I’ve seen her talk at length about this, but would a couple days later blow a horn of “I’m happy single” “I can do very well on my own” as if there was a shame in wanting that as her highest accomplishment.

Why was that? It could be several things, it could be one. But when you have a society that speaks to everything but family desire,as far to encourage the destruction of current matrimony, and tell women and possibly shame them for not pursuing lives of academia, materialism, and social rank, it’s a big deal to say “I don’t really care about any of that, I just want to be a wife to someone and have a happy family.”

A lot of girls putting on a brave face for fear for the all seeing eye of judgement, and leaving men very confused, and making them devalue marriage. The subset of women who have no underlying desire for marriage and commitment (at the time of their life or by nature) push more men to the Dark Side as well.

I’ll add, in my circles and the men I’ve known for years, I’ve seen this more so go through phases. Points where a man will have an aversion to LTR, marriage and everything else for pure SMP reasons, but then turn leaf and have a desire for such. To completely be without that desire is a rarity, a feel like a lot of men, just like women, are forcing themselves to be single and casual.

Oh so I had lunch with my friend today, the guy from the anecdote #343 and #444 who is also an avid reader of HUS, he hasn’t commented on here yet, but I encouraged him to do so. A lot of what I’ve learned about the male psyche has been due to his insight. We discussed whether or not I should move forward with the guy I’m seeing now and have sex. Couple of the men on here said I should have sex with him as it has been 5 dates already, and others were giving me the opposite advice. So I discussed this with my friend and I figured out what I really wanted out of this, and we concluded I shouldn’t. By having sex with him, I’d be starting the relationship off at casual sex. Even if I set the boundaries afterwards and stated I needed monogamy I would still be giving it upto him before those boundaries were set and I would probably not be taken seriously. I’m seeing him tonight, and I’m pretty sure he’s expecting it to happen. When the moment’s right I’ll just tell him honestly that I don’t want to rush into things so soon since we’re evolving so well and that I won’t have sex unless we’re monogamous. If he runs, I’ll be grateful at least that I didn’t break my 5 months of celibacy with a guy that didn’t think I was worth the wait. If he does stick around, I’ll know he respects me and I’ll have more respect for him as well.