Redditors on Casual Sex

If it feels like crap, stop doing it.

One Question:

• How did those guys feel the day after they struck out?

I prefer relationships to casual sex myself, but that does not mean that some slight loneliness after a ONS means that the ONS was not enjoyed.

Something else, I think, should be mentioned. I, personally, see a lot of White Knighting on Reddit. Granted, considering their likely audience, this is not surprising.

I continue to be surprised by the number of men who prefer relationships to casual sex.

Really says alot about the view women have of men. Also says alot about how much you overvalue your emotional capacity and depth in relations to males.

If it tastes like crap, and you’re starving, you still eat it.

I’d be interested to compare reported sexual behavior in the poll to actual sexual behavior. Hypotheses:

1. Enjoying of casual sex is under-reported, because women don’t want to be perceived as “easy.”

2. Many of the girls who report not enjoying casual sex are still having quite a lot of it with desirable but unsuitable characters in the hope it will lead to a relationship/because they are swayed by his manly charms.

@ Turning – well, here is the thing.  If everything I’ve learned in the last 4 months is true, women in general simply do not respond sexually to being treated well.  They respond sexually to the asshole behavior.

That isn’t to say that you can’t have both though.  Athol’s entire blog is dedicated to finding that balance of asshole and Nice Guy(TM) to keep a marriage happy and healthy.  I’m past the initial shock of it all, and now am trying to figure out “my” correct balance.  Yes, it means I have to act in ways that are uncomfortable for me sometimes.  No I haven’t had to become a complete asshole.

I’m not thrilled with any of this, but I’ve had a divorce and do not want to ruin another relationship because I am clueless.  That doesn’t mean I will be successful now, but at least I have a better idea of what needs to be done to make it successful.

Don’t turn fully to the dark side.  It will be a lasting mark on your being for the rest of your life.  Instead, learn to curb your desire to please a woman.  A few of us have discussed how we simply dialed back the Nice Guy(tm) routine a bit and added a little jerk for good measure, and got great results.  You don’t have to sell your soul to the devil, but it doesn’t hurt to play devil’s advocate a bit.

And I’m sorry to see that you seem to have given up on your marriage.  I gave it all I had before we threw in the towel.  But I was trying like hell to do all the wrong things.  Now that you know, you may have a fair shot of saving your relationship, if you want.  Don’t let your new knowledge creep into your feelings for women in general, and certainly not your wife specifically.  If you look at my posts on other threads here, you’ll see I went through a period of time after taking the “red pill” where I had difficulty keeping my anger and disappointment from affecting my current relationship.  It was very tough, but now I am past it and things are really improving.  She can’t help her nature any more than you can help yours.  Now that you have a better understanding of her nature, you are in a much better position to satisfy her “primal needs”, and in return she will likely be willing to meet more of your needs as well.

I wish you all the best no matter how things go.  Do your best to not let the negativity of the “manosphere” creep into your heart and soul.  There are some really bitter players out there!

This is more anecdotal evidence that it is women, not men, who shy away from commitment and monogamy.  This is more support for the proposition that women, not men, want NSA sex. 

My own opinions on casual sex were that it was a bit like a glazed donut.  They taste great while you eat them.  It’s not a steak dinner, but it’s a lot better than nothing.   It’s the feelings afterward that you don’t much like.

I’m in an open relationship.  Both my partner and I LOVE sex.  But we’ve found (over the last year and a half) that we LOVE sex with each other.  Even though we have free reign to have sex with others, we’ve found we mostly like flirting and mess around with other people, but having sex with each other.

This was incredibly surprising to both of us, given our high sex drive.  But what we found is that we enjoy companionship and sex isn’t really everything.

Funny, we just had this conversation last week… and we both realized we don’t like casual sex as much as we used to.  Sounds like that’s reflected in this poll.

As others have pointed out, the reddit users might not be representative.

Nonetheless, it’s not that surprising that men find true casual sex (as opposed to FWB or some regular thing) very unsatisfying.  For most of us, the male enjoyment and satisfaction from sex is directly proportional to the level of enthusiasm, submission and enjoyment received from the woman.   The feeling that she has completely submitted and given herself over, both physically and emotionally.   It must be some primal thing that assures the guy that he’s her alpha.   But, by and large, you just can’t get that from genuinely casual sex.  It’s usually something awkward where she is reserved, mechanical and so forth.  And then there is the whole condom thing which only exacerbates the problem.

There was a prior thread here where some woman was wondering why a guy who didn’t want to get serious and exclusive still acted in ways that seemed to elicit those kinds of emotions from her.  This is why.  The sex is 10 times better.  He still wants that – just with multiple girls.

If a woman has no inclination to behave like a porn star, will men consider that suboptimal sex?

For Me?

• Enthusiasm
• Lust
• Feminine Carnal Pleasure (that look on her face is where it’s at)

However, I am guessing that some guys need to get with a Power Bottom.

I have to say that it’s refreshing to see men have some sense of standards that don’t only apply when looking for a wife.  PBateman hits the nail on the head:

Sounds like people are lowering their standards out there just to get some. Why not raise your standards and focus on that?

For me, casual sex really is not really that much more than a release for a guy. What else could it be? Sometimes it’s utterly painful….those times where you and the girl are playing tug of war until the bar closes…then you’re drunk…by the time you get to sleep it’s 5am…you wake up the next day hungover and feeling like utter poo. That was my last one night stand and I’m not sure I really care enough to bother with that. If it really is just some kind of urge or ego boosting I need, why bother?  There are more productive uses of my time.

I was never into expecting a woman to do the pornstar things like anal, threesomes, rimjobs, cumshots

Rimjobs? A woman who’s given rimjobs, whether in casual or committed relationships, is definitely not a woman I would be in a relationship with. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t ever be able to kiss a woman after she told me she’s done that.

@ Rmax

Wow! Bitter much? Look feminism is like every other social movement that has changed the world we live in, it has had some unexpected consequences, some of which aren’t good. But that rant at least to me is WAY out of line. You have no substance, no facts and basically just anger and maybe hate filled verbal spew. Even when you might have a valid point it is sandwiched with so much anger that you really can’t get past the emotion to get to any intellectual idea in there.

For me I appreciate feminism, I would never disagree with someone who says that sometimes it goes to far, or that in someways it has made male/female interactions harder. But do you really want to live in the world we had before feminism? Personally I think that women getting the right to vote, control their bodies, control their money, work, get educations, and have reasonably equal status with men in society is good. I am perfectly happy to deal with an occasionally difficult moment with the women in my life so that the women in my life can be independent interesting people instead of servile domesticated creatures.

@ Heidi – Very interesting.  I completely understand that no one person can be everything to someone, but for me I NEED to be everything to them sexually.  I’m completely OK with my SO having interests outside of my realm and indulging in those with friends.  In fact, I would be very concerned if my GF/Wife had no life outside of our relationship.

For me, jealousy is a HUGE issue.  I don’t know for sure why, but I’m sure it is a combination of upbringing and anxiety.  Just the thought of my SO being with another guy for casual sex gets me so tense I feel like I could pop.  Some of that is simply that I cannot relate to wanting sex for the sake of sex alone, so any “casual” encounter to me would be a direct threat to the emotional state of our relationship.  As in, I cannot internalize she would simply be in it for the sex, and would feel that the encounter was a direct threat to my security, which I would act on accordingly.  I tend to rely on my romantic relationship as the anchor of my life.  By that I mean I expect things at home to be predictable and comfortable.  I find that when my home life is such, I can face the daily chaos life creates with ease and ability.  However, when my home life is in chaos, my entire life is as well.

Opening up my romantic relationship would cause chaos in me, and I know beyond all doubt that it would be the beginning of the end for the relationship.  As it is my divorce proved to me that nothing is guaranteed.  I can’t imagine adding any more doubt and unease to make things that much more unstable.

So, for me one of the things my SO must rely on me and only me for is sexual intimacy.  I’ve honestly given the idea of an open relationship thought many times throughout my life.  But for all the reasons I stated above I have not and will not act on it.  Just one try would/could be enough to cause instability that would ultimately end the relationship, and frankly I’m happy with my sex life now and would not risk the relationship for something I can obviously do without.

“Theres a difference Hooking Up Smart ISNT part of the manosphere … as pointed out by plenty of MRAs”

Some consider HUS part of the manosphere, some don’t.  I personally don’t (more like “manosphere adjacent”).  But to write that comment, you had to first spend a lot of time (for good or ill) in the real manosphere.

@susan

“So are you saying that the male preference for relationship sex is unrelated to emotional intimacy, or at least his degree of emotional involvement? That one man could be very happy having sex with numerous women as long as they were all really into him? IOW, a harem.”

“Unrelated” is an overstatment.  There is some additional benefit to emotional intimacy and long term familiarity.  But when these guys say they feel “bleh” after casual sex, I think it’s more what I described.  I think of often what guys call “emotional intimacy” is exactly the feeling I described and the urge to bond with/take care of a woman as a result of it.   So, yes, in a society that encouraged it, a guy could be very happy having sex with multiple women who were all emotionally invested in him.  VERY HAPPY. lol   Which is not to say that he wouldn’t care about each of them and develop strong feelings for each of them.   The hareming instinct in most men is strong (just ask Tiger Woods).The one thing that would lower the level of enjoyment is obviously guilt – but if you eliminate the notion that he is doing wrong (and guilt goes away), then all bets are off.

But, for good reasons, our society frowns on that, and it certainly would make the whole raising a family thing really awkward.    And, at least for me, my children’s happiness trumps pretty much anything else, and I don’t see how kids in our society could be happy growing up in a polygynous household.

Will –
Thanks for finding it inspirational.  That sorta made me blush.    I do admit, it can be hard to find a woman who matches your beliefs about open relationships.  For me, the problem was reverse… I couldn’t find guys into it!  My most recent partner has been the best.  He’s never been in an open relationship, AND his past girlfriend cheated on him.  So I had a HUGE hill to climb.  First and foremost, I had to restore his confidence.  He’s handsome, charming, and sweet… but he doubted himself because of the cheating incident.  Then I had to gain his ABSOLUTE trust.  This means I share EVERYTHING with him, including a promise I will never lie.  Often when I tell him something, I have to ask, “Am I oversharing?” because I’d much prefer *HE* ask me to scale back than forgetting to say something that he might find important.

Essentially, for both of us, the biggest fear is being made to look a fool.  I don’t care if he hooks up with women, but I MUST hear it from him.  So if it’s a quick text message, that’s fine. I just don’t want him waiting until the next day and someone telling me before that.

Same with him… he never EVER wants to be humiliated or embarrassed, and it’s my responsibility and his trust in me that dictates I NEVER put him in that position.  That means I never fuck his friends (fool around with is okay, not fuck), or hook up with someone out of anger or resentment towards him.

It also means we had to delve into a conversation about sex and what it means… probably a whole ‘nother post, but the short story is that in the past, sex was a vengeful thing women used to lord over him, whereas for me, sex was a pleasurable extracurricular activity that could be free from emotions, but is best shared between two friends.

@Passer_By

“Kind of like it is today, only with the genders reversed. :)”

Yep, divorce and how it is handled is definitely one of the problems I have with feminism. I hope it gets sorted out before I get married.

@ Susan

I have a lot of options. This means most meetings with women nowadays lead to casual sex. Chalk me down for one of those who can do without it. The amount of time and effort for something so short and meaningless? Not all it’s chalked up to me. Reminds me of surfing (if you are new to it). A lot of work for a few seconds of a thrill. The difference is you can eventually get the most out of surfing as you get better, but with most women nowadays, it stays the same. Short, thrill ride.

Don’t get me wrong. If I see a beautiful woman it’s hard not to want this, but my motivation for it dies a little bit with every short term encounter.

I just had a thought, too… what is casual sex?  If I have a guy I keep in my little black book and call when I need some action, is that casual?  Our relationship might be friendship, but it’s a relationship nonetheless.

ONSs would obviously be casual, but I wonder how many ONSs people actually have?

@ Turning to the Dark Side

“Bad news: I have started treating women badly, and I am amazed at how well it works. It even works on my wife. Had more and better sex with her in the last 6 months of my being an asshole and openly flirting with other women, than all of the previous 10 years of flowers and dinners and foot massages put together. So my turn to the dark side is only accelerating. This is bringing my marriage to an end, which is fine with me.”

I would really be cautious about thinking that because in the short-term, it appears that things are getting better that THIS is a good long-term strategy for your marriage. Your wife may believe that you’re about to bail and hence -more sex. Most women don’t just bail out (esp w/ kids unless she’s a basket case or an addict) without carefully planning the exit so the change in behavior may be in order to bide her time.

Men often think that when his nagging wife stops nagging (example I’m using because it’s so common or withholding sex is another) it means that things are going well- it absolutely doesn’t. She nags when she doesn’t know how to ask you for what she wants or is unaware about what’s bothering her.  When she stops nagging, she’s often planning her exit because she’s given up. This is really common so watch out for this pitfall.

I suggest that you try to find a way to communicate your needs to her and have her do the same. Perhaps visit the marriagebuilders site and print out some of the articles. Try to dig deeper on what’s really going wrong.

Best of luck.

Turning to the Dark Side –

Have you tried talking with your wife?  I’m curious what sort of conversations the two of you have had?  Has she expressed dissatisfaction with her life? The life you share together?

Romantic gestures are sweet and nice… I appreciate that you’ve been “the nice guy,” but have you considered making your romantic gestures more personal? Flowers and dinner and back rubs are nice, but gestures that are more personal are infinitely more romantic.  Things like getting up on a cold and early morning that she has to be up, but you get to sleep in, to scrape her car and warm it up for her.  It’s cheaper than a dinner.  Or instead of bringing her flowers, bring her a favorite herb (added bonus, hopefully she’ll cook you dinner!).  Or instead of an expensive dinner out, turn off the TV and have a picnic for her on the family room floor.  I did this for my boyfriend and hand made lots of little treats, including chocolate dipped chile peppers (now his favorite!).  He loved it so much, I made it a monthly date night occurrence.  Way cheaper than dinner out.    For me, he knows how much I love “My Big Fat Greek Wedding,” so he had a greek night where he made me falafal, gyros, and we watched MBFGW. 

Those gestures often make me want to be a better partner and “incentivize” me to try and “out-do” my partner’s awesomeness.  In short, the better I treat him, the better he treats me.

Anyway, it takes two to make a relationship fail… I’m not placing the blame on you BY ANY MEANS.  I’m just suggesting that you should try talking to her.  Particularly about the sex.  I had a long term boyfriend who once was angry at me for a few weeks.  He FINALLY said, “I HATE that I’m the only one who initiates sex.”  I had no counter-argument… he was always the initiator, and that wasn’t fair.  From that point on, I made sure to initiate the sex even when I wasn’t “in the mood” because the health of my relationship depended on it. He could’ve saved those weeks of resentment by just saying something from the get-go.  Have you tried telling her how you feel?

@ Heidi

Chocolate dipped chili peppers. EPIC Thank You

@ Dark Side

I actually talked about this with my two roomates a few weeks ago, should note they are both women. Ones a carousel rider and the other is in a serious LTR.

They summed it up like this, the girl sleeps with the asshole but she stays with the nice guy. (I’m gonna add on as long as the nice guy isn’t uber beta.)

As for the loss of sex thing, the relationship girl did the same thing (their at like 5 years or something crazy), her boyfriend did what you did and it worked… for a few weeks. At which point they almost broke up, he toned it down and actually TALKED to her about it and as far as I know he doesn’t complain anymore. (That was last year sometime.)

Ted said it best where you can try to find a good balance of ass-nice guy.

Now

@ Susan

I am in agreement witht he men from reddit or whatever it is, casual sex is basically a lot of work for a mastrubatory aid and its better than nothing.

My sex life has improved dramatically since I started being a jerk, but as Anonymous pointed out, being a jerk is not a good relationship long-term strategy. It isn’t good for her, and it isn’t good for me either. My wife is probably thinking about divorcing, and I think of it as inevitable.

Maybe as Ted D and “Married Man’s Sex Life” points out, there is a middle ground where you can be good to a woman and still turn her on.

Maybe I can stay married, but it just doesn’t feel right that I have to game my wife. If I have to use game, then what is the point of being married? It is like a series of one night stands, except I have to pay all of her bills and health insurance.

Maybe I am just pissed about my love and marriage fantasy being ruined.

I guess what I am saying is that it doesn’t feel like my wife loves me if I have to game her to turn her on. But maybe that’s not true.

Thanks for all the advice you are probably all correct. Except maybe for Heidi.

Yes, Heidi, I talked about it. Yes, I asked what I could do. Yes, I tried to figure out the special things that she enjoyed. Yes, we went to marriage counseling. Two different marriage counselors. Did all of this many many times for YEARS.

She told me she needed MORE vacations, dinners, footrubs, backrubs. I needed to do MORE housework and do MORE of the childcare. She needed MORE money too, so I took a second job (was already making six figures). I tried all of this for a while, but that clearly didn’t work. Then she told me that this is just a natural part of marriage. That I should start watching more football instead of thinking about sex.

All of this took about 10 years. Since I was following your advice, Heidi, and trying really really hard to be a better husband, can I blame you for 10 lonely miserable years of my life?

Who would have guessed that chasing other women and telling her to go to hell would make her feel like having sex with me? Wish I would have known that 10 years ago.

Turning to the Dark Side –

I merely asked if you had talked about it.  Your previous posts indicated that you HADN’T, so it was a natural question to ask.  Forgive me for inquiring more about your situation before making rash judgments.

Now that you’ve mentioned it, if you’ve talked to her about it (repeatedly), and she hasn’t changed, then you’re left with two choices.  1) deal with it and STFU, or 2) get out of the situation.

I have a few guy friends in similar situations as yours, and I give them all the same advice… if you’ve tried talking about it and being direct with her and she hasn’t changed, you owe it to yourself to get out of that marriage.

And to you, I extend the same advice.

You’re with someone who disrespects you and doesn’t care about your well-being.  That isn’t a partner, that’s a mooch, and an ungrateful one at that.

It also explains a lot about your anger, too.  I’d be just as effing angry as you are if you had tried all these things and your relationship is still shot.

So, if you’ve tried all these things and she STILL hasn’t shown you the respect you (as her HUSBAND) should be granted, why are you still with her?  All you’re doing is fostering a relationship where you are resentful (and rightfully so), and from the sounds of it, one where she’s getting what she needs without giving anything in return.  Why torture yourself like that?

Now that we’ve gotten a bit of your background (aka, your “nice guy” self), do you mind sharing the recent “asshole” moves you’ve been putting on her?  Are you still unhappy in the relationship?  If so, why?

Susan:  Yes, it’s like we’re all trying to get that free lunch.

Baloney sandwich, yum.

@ TttDarkSide

She told me she needed MORE vacations, dinners, footrubs, backrubs. I needed to do MORE housework and do MORE of the childcare. She needed MORE money too, so I took a second job (was already making six figures). I tried all of this for a while, but that clearly didn’t work. Then she told me that this is just a natural part of marriage. That I should start watching more football instead of thinking about sex.

Yeah, this is ridiculous! I’m so sorry you went through all of this bull! Incompetent therapists. What was SHE contributing in return for all of the vacations, dinners, footrubs, housework, etc.?

@ Dark Side:

“:I HATE that it works. I feel like the guy in the Matrix movie who wished he could forget the truth and go back to the pretend world and believe all the lies again.”

I love that it works.  It’s good to be the king.  I’m not going back to the way it was.  Not now, not ever.

Want to know why it works?

When you start standing up for yourself, being your own man, and not putting up with her shit, she knows that you aren’t afraid of her.  And if you aren’t afraid of her, then you aren’t afraid to be without her.   If you aren’t afraid to be without her, you could leave her.  You could replace her. 

Do you have any idea what that does to a wife?  The thought that she’s not the special little snowflake she thought she was?  The idea that if she leaves, you’ll just get a new one?  The concept that she’s not the princess, ruler of all she surveys?

Off the pedestal she goes.  She doesn’t have hubby Dark Side right where she wants him.  No, she’ll have to put forth some effort to get what she wants and needs.   The very thought that she will have to vie for attention and won’t get everything she wants will soak her panties just like when you first met her and she was just a girl you were dating.  She doesn’t get to rule the roost.   She wants YOU to rule the roost.

“What was SHE contributing in return for all of the vacations, dinners, footrubs, housework, etc.?”

I’m guessing she was a stay-at-home mother. Now, granted, motherhood is tough. But this woman sounds like she requires a strong hand (i.e. what Turning to the Dark Side refers to as “jerk” behavior) in order to behave. It sounds like he just let her rule and constantly caved in to what she demanded. Then he found a bit of “game” and is amazed that immature, childish and bratty women actually respond to and are turned on by a bit of authority and manliness.

My husband doesn’t have to be a jerk to me because I have enough self-awareness to keep myself in check, and I never have to nag him or be bitchy to him because he does the same for himself. We both like fancy things, but we’re quite frugal when it comes to spending. We do our own share of the housework (he does all the yard, I do all the inside) without being asked. We respect each other and never raise our voices at each other, and we do what mature adults do, communicate, negotiate, compromise and work together as a team.

My husband would have never put up with a woman like that wife for even a week. Before getting married I knew exactly what kind of standards I needed to live up to, and they had been my own standards as well. If he wanted to be a jerk to me, insult me and try to make me feel bad, I wouldn’t put up with that either. He is a man worthy of respect because he doesn’t put up with crap, but he doesn’t need to give out crap either. The “dark game” stuff is aimed at taming women who have no self-awareness nor maturity, and it does work, but I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be.

Okay… so I’m getting a better understanding of this “dark game” bit.  It’s not “game,” it’s self-respect.  Respect yourself enough to NOT be taking advantage of.  And sorry, someone who has all these demands and gives NOTHING in return is totally taking advantage of you.  I don’t care if it your wife, best friend, or brother.  That person is toxic.

Demanding respect =/= asshole.  It shows that you value yourself, and that confidence is important.  Why should your wife value you when you clearly don’t value yourself?

I’m sorry you married a bitch.  Either learn to how to teach her how to treat you or get out.  You made this situation by marrying someone who didn’t respect you, but you can get out of it by demanding that respect now.

HOpe and Heidi:

I disagree that what we’re talking about just upthread is “dark game” the way I understand it.  “Dark game” to me involves dark triad:  narcissism, thrill seeking, deception.  That’s hardcore pickup.  That’s lying through your teeth to a woman.  That’s cheating on a wife and flaunting it in her face.  I’m not down for that. 

I’m all about pushing back when I need to.  All about calling her out on disrespect. Call it out, confront and correct.  All about showing dominance.  All about ignoring fitness tests.

“Yes, it’s like we’re all trying to get that free lunch.”

I am not.

@susan and @deti –

Thanks for clarifying.  I don’t like the “dark game” bit… I don’t like deception and lying in any forms. I also don’t like sex with random strangers (PUAs at the bar kinda activity).  But this demanding of self-respect I can most DEFINITELY get behind.

@Turning –

I realize you thought you were following the directions/advice in those popular books (which, admittedly, I’ve never read)… but do those books say to keep giving, giving, giving when you’re getting nothing in return?  It seems like the best thing you can do for yourself is to LOVE YOURSELF and part of loving yourself is learning that boundary between giving and receiving.  Any therapist worth their salt will tell you take care of yourself before you try to take care of anyone else (including your relationship).  And you can’t take care of yourself if you keep giving, giving, giving, you know?

I’m sorry if you feel we are all ganging up on you here.  It’s not that we are.  I can’t speak for the other women here, but I have a genuine interest in seeing that you succeed in your relationship. And I hope that being a woman can help give you some perspective.

So, what sorta “asshole” things have you been doing that have changed your wife’s response as of late?

Like Bella and Edward?

Heh I love you for this reference.It was the other way around I injured him more than he did to me.. But yeah… there were casualties, but like Edward I was completely mortified and I didn’t touched him for a few days even though he told me he was okay and that it was funny (he is a masochist me thinks) and I wasn’t even a twilight fan when I got married.

@Turning to the Dark Side “I was just following the advice of the most popular books and relationship gurus: 5 Languages of Love, Ignite her Fire, Leo Buscaglia, Ian Kerner, my mother, etc. Their advice sounds like , “if she doesn’t warm up to you, you need to communicate better, help more, be kinder, be a better lover, find a way to reach her”.”

I don’t know about the rest of them, nor did I ever read those books. I think the idea of languages of love applied to a healthy relationship between two mature adults it can work well. Sorry that it doesn’t work for your relationship.

@deti “I disagree that what we’re talking about just upthread is “dark game” the way I understand it.”

I didn’t say YOU were using “dark game.” Whether or not something is “dark” has a lot to do with a person’s attitude and intentions. The exact same action (for example squeezing your wife’s hands) can have distinctly different meaning depending on the context, mood, and intentions behind the action.

When I just got out of the hospital with a horribly bruised hand from failed IV, my husband hurt my hand many times by squeezing it as he usually likes to do. But I didn’t get mad at all, because I know he didn’t mean to hurt me. He just forgot that he was holding the hurt hand.

You see, just as my husband’s “hurting” me was not dark because he didn’t mean to hurt me, your “game” was not dark because your intention was to improve your marriage. This guy seems lost and flailing, and even his handle implies he is using “dark game,” though maybe his game may be more confused and chaotic than truly dark.

Do you WANT to fix your marriage?  Can you forgive and move beyond your wife’s selfish and narcissistic behavior?

It should be about her fixing her own behavior, not about forgiving and moving beyond it.

Is anyone else getting an error message saying that HUS failed it’s certificate or something?

It says gets your partnertested or something like it in my screen and I though it was my computer I had been running the freaking antivirus all day!

Deti said:

8.    Don’t put up with disrespect, in private or in public.  If she does in private, call her out on it immediately.   If she does it in public, even jokingly, when you get home you call her out on it, tell her exactly what she said or did, and tell her it’s not funny and you expect it not to happen again.  Don’t say your feelings were hurt.  Tell her she disrespected you.  Then, when it happens again, you do the same thing.   Lather, rinse, repeat.   Trust me, she will disrespect you again.  You just need to call it out every time.

Deti, you are the shit.

Some support and a further look:

Don’t be afraid to call her ass out in public for disrespecting you, either.  The first time she does it, gut it and talk to her about it in private.  Next time, pull her aside right then, and tell her to cut it out.

The best results I’ve had with this were with very relaxed body language, a calm vocal tone, and laser like eye contact held until she drops her eyes.

I dated a new-grad nurse once who was regaling her non-medical friends about what idiots EMS people are at a party (to be honest, she had some good points, but was painting with a brush that included me – I am not an idiot).  I was sitting on the couch behind her, listening.

Finally, I couldn’t take it anymore.

“Hey, Girlfriend.  What do I do for a living?”

“Uhh…you’re a paramedic.”

“Yup.  Knock it off.”

“Sorry,” she whispered, and she blushed so hard the tips of her ears turned purple.

Neutral, conversational volume voice, no threatening body language.  Only thing different is the eye contact – and the willingness to flip her a twenty for a cab and walk right the fuck out of her life if she doesn’t indeed knock it off immediately. If she comes back at you with anything other than an apology, i.e. she’s justifying or trying to get the crowd on her side – just calmly leave.

No drama.

If there is no immediate, public apology, she just showed something about herself to you that is unacceptable, and you can find another, better woman.

<i>Why am I not already divorced? Partially because I am hoping to find a way out of a lifetime alimony judgement (I probably won’t be able to avoid that). But also because I am convinced that *ANY* woman in my wife’s place would have been just as turned off by my attempts to give her all the things she wanted. I am not angry at my wife any more than anyone else. I am angry at the universe about what turns women on.</i>

Turning, I just skimmed the comment thread quickly, but I wanted to respond to you.

Hey, welcome to the club (red-pillers).  Eventually, you’ll realize the bolded part is irrational.  You really aren’t angry at the universe about reality.  You are angry that society lied to you your whole life, maybe even your own Mom.  You can get past the stage you are at now.

Whether your marriage is something worse trying to salvage I have no idea.  Only you can make that determination.  I see you have already discovered Roosh and Roissy.  Some good general stuff there, although to be honest I don’t read Roosh and not sure how applicable his stuff is to LTR game.  You should read Athol Kay-Married Man Sex Life, and read this ASAP.  Your story reminded me of this post:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/

Check out Rollo Tomassi’s blog as well:  http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/

Good luck.  And I’ll leave you with this excerpt Rollo posted:

<i>

There is no going back.

NEO: “There’s no going back now is there?
MORPHEUS: “No. But if you could, would you really want to?”

One dynamic I encounter from guys who’ve experienced the ‘community’ in varying degrees is a desire to go back to their previously comfortable, ignorant bliss. The reality they become exposed to is too much to bear and they spit the red pill back up. They want to plug themselves back into the Matrix.

No person both frightens and disgusts me more than one who understands truth, but willfully opts for denial. It’s not the desire to do so that disgusts me, I understand the desire, it’s that there is no going back.</i>

The best results I’ve had with this were with very relaxed body language, a calm vocal tone, and laser like eye contact held until she drops her eyes.

Yup, in my experience the key is to not get angry or emotional but convey you are deadly serious.  This actually works with guys as well if they try to play you for a bitch.

Too bad you and I can’t get together for a beer and swap bouncing stories, but thiis tactic became routine when dealing with someone getting unruly who you had to reign in.   Once they knew you were serious, then they would get all apologetic.  Sometimes, I wish I could ditch the cubicle dweller job and go back to that gig.  I actually think working that job helped to keep a good frame, but I get paid 4x more to be a spreadsheet jockey.

Mike C:

Too bad you and I can’t get together for a beer and swap bouncing stories, but thiis tactic became routine when dealing with someone getting unruly who you had to reign in.   Once they knew you were serious, then they would get all apologetic.  Sometimes, I wish I could ditch the cubicle dweller job and go back to that gig.  I actually think working that job helped to keep a good frame, but I get paid 4x more to be a spreadsheet jockey.

I’ve never thought about the two things in conjunction (girls, controlling drunks), but you got steel on target with that one.

The same light dawns in a girl’s eyes that dawns in a disruptive patron when the patron realizes you are quite willing to ratchet up the local pain level very quickly and without hesitation. With a drunk frat kid it’s gonna be a sore neck from being choked out or a quick head CT after being knocked the fuck out.

With a girl, it’s finally realizing that she might never, ever, ever see or communicate with you again.

Like you, I am so glad I was a bouncer. I think those years taught me a lot about humanity that I couldn’t have learned anywhere else.

It’s not the money that keeps me from doing it anymore, though. It’s how many of those guys I transport lights and sirens to the ED. I was lucky as hell, and I’m kind of too chicken to fight anymore. Too much to lose, these days.

@Turning

What did you start doing that you consider acting like a jerk?

I often find that guys who previously put women on a pedestal start treating them like normal people instead of pretty, little houseplants, they consider themselves acting like assholes while the women perceives it as finally getting treated as human.

“It’s important to me that he be able to tell me no when I need it.  If I can’t trust him to be honest with me when it’s difficult, how can I trust him to be honest at all? ”

I think this gets right to the issue of both LTR “game” and the myth that women like bad guys.  The reality is that if someone can’t give you critique, he isn’t honest.  How can he protect me if he is not objective?

I’ve actually asked a guy I was seeing to tell me about what he thought of me, positive and negative.  When he couldn’t think of one negative thing or give any constructive criticism, I immediately knew he was living in a fantasy world that was incompatible with my own and I couldn’t see him as relationship material.

Women don’t like assholes, they like honest, objective men who respect themselves and can be vocal about their critiques.

“What Deti posted is a foreign language, and feels horrible and wrong at first. ”

Wow!  That’s actually very strange to me.  I had no idea men were taught to abdicate all self respect for the sake of women.  Is this what men mean when they say they are “nice guys”?

It almost seems ridiculous that a guy thinks that he can’t state what he wants.

It almost makes sense now why men call women entitled.  Women who make their desires known are speaking to men who were being taught that they should never do that with the opposite sex.  They are doing it under the impression that it’s a two way street.  The men, on the other hand, under the impression that they can’t express their desires, are taking these expressions as demands instead of negotiations.

This has been very enlightening.

My fiance has always told me what he wanted.  He’s actually told me once that I needed to squat more.  He wanted me to have a bigger, rounder butt and he wasn’t going to wish it into existence.  My response: I hit the gym.  Simple.

The only time this has been an issue is when he used to tell me that he was going out after work or with friends.  He would tell me (not ask me) but would say it in a way that implied that he didn’t really want to do it or was being forced or it wasn’t going to be a good time.  Eventually I got annoyed and just told him that when he’s going out, just tell me instead of trying to pretend it’s going to suck.  Be direct. It’s annoying otherwise.  He stopped doing that quick.  I’m glad because it was a total turn off.

Besu said:

Wow!  That’s actually very strange to me.  I had no idea men were taught to abdicate all self respect for the sake of women.  Is this what men mean when they say they are “nice guys”?

That’s a pretty simplified version of what actually takes place, but the short answer is….yes.

Watch a romantic comedy.  Who ends up with the girl?

Ask a girl what she wants in a man.  She’ll say nice, funny, tall, financially stable, and  smart.

No where in there does she say that she needs a man who is willing to tell her “NO” once in awhile.  No where in there does it say that she needs a man with a mission in life – a mission that doesn’t necessarily include her.  No where in there does it say anything about the man having the respect of others, including her.

To the girl, that goes without saying.  The guy has no idea about this part of the deal.  Nobody tells him.

He breaks his ass to achieve his goal of a good woman he’s attracted to.  The lucky ones figure out they’re doing it bass ackwards.

Heidi said:

To give and give and give is a terrible way to ANYONE (regardless of gender) to live their life!

This statement isn’t necessarily true in all respects.

I have the soul of a servant. I am most fulfilled when benefiting others. I have done some horrible things that I seek to balance somehow. I need to give to people, or I’ll end up shooting myself in the face.

I’ve learned, though, that the person/people I need to give to is/are not the women in my life. A little is okay, but unleashing my personal angst on someone is not productive, nor conducive to anyone’s happiness.

Many guys out there are similar to me, if not as driven/twisted that way by life. They’ve been raised on team sports, activities involving shared suffering, and sacrificing for the greater good.

Throw a normal girl into that, and the guy seems too cheesy. Put an entitled princess (any variety – there are many) who can push his buttons, and the guy slips complacently into slavery. It never occurs to him that there’s another way to live life, other avenues for his energies. When the suffering brings no reward, the constant brutal labor bears no fruit – then, the guy turns into a “Nice Guy”.

He’s not nice, though – he’s misguided, brainwashed, and counter-productive.

I agree with your basic statement, though:

It’s pretty fucked up.

Yes, I’d also love to hear specific examples of where this is taught.  Very fascinating!

“Many guys out there are similar to me, if not as driven/twisted that way by life. They’ve been raised on team sports, activities involving shared suffering, and sacrificing for the greater good.”

The thing is, I was raised on team sports.  (soccer, lacrosse.  MVP and captain for both. yippie! college cheerleader too but wasn’t as into it)  Anyway, I was always taught that you self-sacrifice in a bind.  But always regroup and debrief to come up with a game plan where you are all contributing.  If you aren’t contributing or even trying, you aren’t a team player.  My coach would remove you or punish you.  You would be shunned.  I don’t think team sports teaches martyrdom.  If anything, I was pushed more to self-sufficient martyrdom with my gifted and AP classes.  Sports seemed to reinforce the opposite.  Not discounting your experiences, just my perspective.

“Neutral, conversational volume voice, no threatening body language.  Only thing different is the eye contact – and the willingness to flip her a twenty for a cab and walk right the fuck out of her life if she doesn’t indeed knock it off immediately. If she comes back at you with anything other than an apology, i.e. she’s justifying or trying to get the crowd on her side – just calmly leave.”

Oh yes indeed.  We loves us some Dogsquat.

I actually saw a guy do this once.  Don’t even know them.  This man and his girl were at a nice restaurant.  She’s giving the waiter a hard time, complaining all over the place.   They finish the meal without a word.  He pays the check.  He tosses a bill across the table at his girl, calmly says “that’s for cab fare”, and nonchalantly pushes back from the table and strides out.  She looks around, waits a beat or two, and scurries out after him. 

Wonder how that went down later.

Is anyone else getting an error message saying that HUS failed it’s certificate or something?

I get it on Mozilla Firefox, but not on Google Chrome.

@DarkSide

Seems like many of the female commenters here keep suggesting that you should have “beta-ed up more.”  From what I have read in the manosphere, this is typical female advice, but rarely works.  Correct me if I’m wrong folks, but I’ve learned that women want beta attention from an alpha.  So you have to be alpha first.  I for one think you did much more than could ever be reasonably asked, and that you are well rid of your ex.

@ Heidi – “Tell me, where did you learn this behavior? Can you remember specific examples either from childhood or adulthood that cultivated this character trait? I’m truly fascinated now, and hope to (as much as I can as a teacher) MOT perpetuate this myth. I’m curious if you think there are times in your childhood that you can remember this myth of the “nice guy” being reinforced.”

I was raised by a single mother.  She truly worked her ass off to make sure I didn’t want for much, but in the 70’s it wasn’t easy for a single mother to get by.  We lived with my grandparents most of my childhood out of necessity.  My grandfather, although present, really didn’t get involved in my upbringing. (Much later in life, he told me that he sometimes wanted to, but didn’t feel it was his place since I wasn’t his son…), and other than two uncles that didn’t last until my 18th birthday (both of my aunts ended up divorced before I graduated high school) I had very few good male role models growing up.

My mother always told me growing up how I needed to respect women and treat them nicely.  Never take advantage, never use my aggressiveness on them.  She told me to be kind, supporting, and comforting.

I also attended a Catholic school from 1st through 6th grade.  Almost all of the teachers were nuns, and every one of them seemed to take delight in smacking the boys down.  I can remember being punished for all kinds of things that looking back were clearly just male behavior.  We were punished for “playing too hard” at recess on occasion because we would get dirty playing football or something similar.  We were made to sit inside while the girls got to go out and roam around the garden and quietly enjoy the fresh air the next day.  My mother thought it was good for me to learn how to “behave”, so she did nothing to counteract or prevent this.

Of course my grandmother contributed a lot as well.  She and my grandfather got along OK, but him being “old school” there were times when tension between them was high.  I see now that much of it was my grandfather actually being a man, but my grandmother and mother used him often as the example of what NOT to be as a husband. “He doesn’t care about what we think.  He is grumpy and only does things his way.  He won’t listen to us…”  He was a good guy, but I really didn’t come to understand this until many years after he was no longer a part of my life.

In addition, look around and you’ll see so many examples of the Nice Guy(TM) that it will amaze you.  Watch just about any romantic comedy or sitcom, and you’ll see examples of the “goofy dad” and the “empowered mother” that actually runs the household while letting the man “think” he does.  Our society also punishes normal male behavior in many ways.  We are told that aggression is bad.  We are told that sexual attraction is bad.  As in, you can’t tell a women at the office she “looks nice” without possibly causing a sexual harassment suite.  I’ve been in so many corporate “diversity and sensitivity” training classes I can’t count them.

All the while, young women are being told to “be whatever they want”.  That they can do anything.  That they are worthy.  That they should be independent and strong.

I was essentially raised to be some woman’s security blanket.  I’m sure my mother didn’t intend that.  I’m sure if I had a solid male role model that things would have been better.  But in the end, my mother, like every other women in my life growing up, tried to teach me to be what they “thought” they wanted from a husband.  The problem is, I don’t think any of them knew.  And, judging by my mom and aunts, their track record kinda proves it…

Heidi said:

“Tell me, where did you learn this behavior? Can you remember specific examples either from childhood or adulthood that cultivated this character trait? I’m truly fascinated now, and hope to (as much as I can as a teacher) MOT perpetuate this myth. I’m curious if you think there are times in your childhood that you can remember this myth of the “nice guy” being reinforced”

I’m about your age.  Remember way back before cell phones and the internet, people would call each other on the house landline?

When I was in 8th grade, a girl named Julie (we’ll call her that, for that is her real name) would call my house over and over and over.  She obviously had a crush on me, but when I’d say,”Hi!” and try and start a conversation, she’d be silent or answer in one word sentences.  It was lame, and I wasn’t attracted to her at all.

She got to calling so much that my dad got pissed.  He told me to get her to quit it.  You don’t fuck around with Dogsquat, Sr. – when he says “Jump!” you ask “How high?” on the way up.  So, it was left to me to end the phone calls.

One day at school, I screwed up my courage and politely asked Julie to stop calling.  I promise you I did this in private, and in a neutral, polite way.  I’d just moved to a new school and had been bullied at my previous one (only white kid in class) and was very sensitive about feelings, etc.  I was very careful (I thought) not to hurt her feelings – but I needed her to stop calling so much or my dad was gonna put an end to it himself.

She got very angry and embarrassed.  I felt bad, but I felt I had done the needful.  A few days later, she ran up to me in the hall at school, pushed me in the chest, and said something like,”My boyfriend just got out of a mental institution!  He’s got a blade and he’s gonna cut you, asshole!  He’s gonna fuck you up ’cause you’re an asshole!”

I asked,”If you’ve got a boyfriend, why have you been calling my house so much?”

In retrospect I should have questioned her verbiage.  Got a blade?  Who talks like that?  This was the nineties, not the thirties…But I digress.

Young Julie kicked me right in the balls.  I had no idea that was coming.  On my way to doubling over, I pushed her in the chest.  She staggered back and fell on her butt.  I vomited and lay in the fetal position for a time.

To make a long story short, I had to go to the school counselor for “anger management”.  I was suspended for three days, even though the girl had pushed/kicked me first.  She’d told the counselor I was mean to her, blah blah blah.  The counselor also told me I should have been nicer to Julie, because she was having a tough time at home.

Knowing what I know now, I suspect Julie had a budding case of Borderline Personality Disorder or something.  My parents were pissed.  My dad was initially on my side, but my mother was an old hippie and was incensed that I had “resorted to violence” and actually laid hands on a girl, so they never fought the school on it.  My dad also didn’t approve of laying hands on a girl.

For a long time, I thought I’d actually handled that situation incorrectly – that I should have done something different.  That’s what my mom, my Dean at school, and the school counselor (all female, by the way) told me – and I believed them.

@Isabel So if a man wants to have an LTR with a woman, he has to abandon his platonic female friends? That sounds really controlling.

I have female friends that I am very close to and I would not dump them just to appease a girlfriend.

Oh crap. My bad, GudEnuf. I misread the question as he *did* take her contact details in 1# so I have to revise my answer to #2 being worse now. Sorry. >.<

Had more and better sex with her in the last 6 months of my being an asshole and openly flirting with other women…This is bringing my marriage to an end, which is fine with me.

Does anyone else see the irony here?”

I posted a few weeks back about a woman who faked an affair with her spouse (they showed up to a bar to “bump into each other” under self-styled personas) and wound up pounding like bunnies in the back of their minivan.

http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/faking-an-affair-with-your-spouse-for-fun-and-profit/

It was wildly weird (not ironic, but beyond that) that the best way for this couple to have hot sex was to pretend they weren’t a couple.

I second Dark Side’s entire first comment on the matter. I don’t want to be rough, but being rough is what works, and that’s what makes nice guys turn contemptuous of women. The alpha-beta balance is very difficult if you weren’t born with the right balance to begin with.

Dogsquat –

From a teacher perspective, your story ENRAGES me. For starters, my mother would’ve been FURIOUS with me if I was constantly calling some boy.  Where was this girl’s parents?

Secondly, an 8th grader threatening you with her mental institution boyfriend? She had something going on.  I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you’re telling the story as unbiased as you can, but even with a slight bias, this chick was mental.

Third, any form of violence towards another student is just that… VIOLENCE.  It’s not tolerated regardless of gender.  I hate that I would’ve had to suspend you (even for using self defense)… and that’s part of the reason I don’t teach anymore.  I can’t stand the bullshite.  But I would’ve suspended her, too!  She kicked you!  What shite administrator let her get away with that?!?

Ugh… I hate that everyone is equating this with “nice.”  This isn’t NICE.  This is pushover behavior that shouldn’t be acceptable in ANYONE.

This brings up another thing that angers me… violence against men.  I used to hit guys (“playfully”) when I was younger because it’s what you do, right?  I did that to one of my best friends (to this day), and with the same strength I hit him, he hauled out and hit me back.  (This was when I was 22 and he was 26.)

I was shocked.

But I’ll tell you what… I never so much as laid a hand on anyone again.  I was embarrassed and angry, but he was right.  He did what a woman would do back to me if hit.  Why should it be any different?

To this day, we’re still very close friends.  Last year, he confided in me that it was one of his worst memories, and he’s hated himself for reacting that way.  To me, I only vaguely remember the incident, but for him it’s been eating him up.

Really, he did what anyone – regardless of gender – would’ve done.

This is what kills me about the whole “Snooki” hitting incident.  You don’t have watch the show (for the record, I DON’T) to know that Snooki got hit in the bar by a man.  Everyone was up in arms about this to which I kept responding… “It doesn’t matter that she’s a woman.  SHE’S A HUMAN, and NO PERSON SHOULD BE HIT BY ANOTHER PERSON.”  THAT is real feminism… equality, not superiority.

And that is a real issue. I have NEVER not given a shit about how I treat a woman in bed. EVER! I have never simply gone at sex with only my concerns, enjoyment, and pleasure in mind, until recently. After getting over my anger and repulsion (yes, the idea that a woman WANTS to be used for a man’s pleasure repulses me…) at what I learned after taking the red pill, I’ve done my best to try on occasion to just “go for mine”. My SO loved it. To this day, it still sickens me a little. This goes SO against what I believed of women that it rocks me to the core. My entire life I believed that this was objectifying a woman sexually, which of course is wrong by any PC standard. But, in the end, it seems to be what women want. BUT, they only want to be objectified by men they find attractive! How the hell are men supposed to work with that?!

@Heidi

Maybe we should do a definition of asshole from male and female POV. I’m getting the feeling we are in another miscommunication by gender, but we haven’t had Jess come here. She actually did called Deti’s behaviour with his wife assholish and wrong I think GudEnuf also agreed with her (sorry if that was not true I do remember Jess getting support by other women here) so I guess there is 4 definitions of asshole: a man’s, a woman, and a feminist and a Pua’s.

I’m just, in all honesty, fascinated.  I think about my own fantasies and think that while they involve my boyfriend “having his way” with me, it’s more because he just can’t resist me, and less because it’s violent or offensive.

Had you read romance genre? I mean aside Twilight. Most of the “rape” fantasy of a man that takes a woman is about that, she is so incredibly seductive that he can’t control himself there is an industry that makes millions of this kind of plot is very normal, feminists hate it and try to deny it, but this is a very common fantasy for women around the world.

@Anacaona –

I don’t read romance (aside from Twilight, which I read — all of them! — because I like to know what my students are reading, lol), but I’m a highly sexual individual and quite aware of the rape fantasy that exists.

Like I said, I consider myself a feminist, and most of my friends would classify themselves the same (men and women alike).  And MOST of those friends share this fantasy.  Those that don’t, do not begrudge those who do.  So I think it’s unfair to say, “Feminists hate this.”  Yes, there might exist some extremists (because extremists exist in any organization or belief, really), but from my experience, “mainstream” feminists do not.

@ Heidi – No worries, I can answer you without any graphic description at all.

Here is the deal.  When I am normally involved in a sexual act, I spend most of the time thinking about my SO.  Is she enjoying it?  Am I going to fast/slow?  Basically I spend a fair amount of time during sex concentrating on my performance, up until the final rush that is.

By “go for mine”, I mean that I totally put all that off and simply have sex.  I concentrate on doing what I want, how I want, and unless I’m given some kind of instruction (which hasn’t occurred yet…) that is how it goes start to finish.

Here is the deal.  When I am normally involved in a sexual act, I spend most of the time thinking about my SO.  Is she enjoying it?  Am I going to fast/slow?  Basically I spend a fair amount of time during sex concentrating on my performance, up until the final rush that is.

By “go for mine”, I mean that I totally put all that off and simply have sex.  I concentrate on doing what I want, how I want, and unless I’m given some kind of instruction (which hasn’t occurred yet…) that is how it goes start to finish.

I must be weird, but that scenario doesn’t seem pleasant at all. Your wife might like it, but I think I, and a few other women on this site, are of a different breed.

Nothing turns me on more than the thought of mutual pleasure. I get turned on the most when I know I am bringing my partner pleasure, and I hope it’s the same for any man I’m involved with.

I’m starting to get the gist that women who value the primitive aspects of men over other qualities (Ex: “asshole” behavior, aloof demeanor, extreme dominance, self-interest focused sex) perhaps aren’t that evolved themselves. Perhaps women who are addicted to alpha “asshole” behavior are women whose reproductive and relationship imperative isn’t beyond the grasp of ancient women.

I know men are going to come back and say “All women are like this”, but perhaps that just means I’m an outlier. I don’t know anymore.

@ Hope – yeah, that is an issue. I was raised to believe being selfish anytime was bad. Truly. I am selfish sometimes, but it comes with guilt attached.

As far as worrying about “performance”, that may be your take, but when I WORRY about performance it is 10x what I described. That is just my default behavior. And I think maybe I was too vague. The deal is this:

I pretty much know I’m going to get off, wqhich is the primary goal of sex for a man. So, I have always spent most of my effort working on getting my partner off knowing that I will no matter what. However, in “go for mine” mode I don’t work specifically FOR her pleasure and instead just enjoy and leave her pleasure to her. That is a very new concept for me. I’ve always owned both my and my partners pleasure, because somewhere during my life I decided that was my duty.

@ Ramble

I said that I found it weird that his wife seems to be enjoying the “go for mine” sex. I personally don’t find it appealing. I find mutual pleasure the most alluring thing of all.

When I have sex with a man, I make it a point that I am giving him pleasure as well as giving myself pleasure. I find that when he is having a good time, then I’m also having a good time. Not to be graphic, but I love seeing a man’s face during sex. I love the reactions, the hurried breathes, the deep moans. That is utter bliss to me. That revs my engines and gets me more turned on.

It’s all about striking a balance. No woman wants to feel like a masturbatory aid. I want to feel pleasure while also knowing that I am giving him pleasure. One without the other just feels sub par, as far as sex goes for me.

I have a question (I hope you don’t mind).

How can a guy be more assertive (what’s the difference between assertive and asshole) and still be a nice guy that women will like. What advice would you give a guy who’s not just taken the blue pill approach but OD’ed on the blue pill lol. I don’t want to be an asshole just not a doormat anymore, if that makes sense, because I am either “too nice” (my ex’s familys’ words!) or in my opinion an asshole (to the point that I just don’t care what she says/thinks anymore – I know that sounds nasty but I just get to the point of screw this I’m doing what I want to do today (although I don’t say that I don’t put up with anything and I cause lots of arguments).

I don’t want to compromise my principles though ie no more sex till marriage, no porn/stripclubs etc, no cheating, polite with good manners and I don’t kiss someone until I’m dating them – this isn’t nice guy stuff its I hatebeing physically intimate with someone I don’t love stuff and what feels right for me.

I read on here someone said join the gym. Why? What about cross country running, weights at home, push ups, sit ups instead because this is how I have always done it when I used to play rugby (american football without any pads, helmets etc just a mouth guard) and it shouldn’t be too hard to get back into shape this way as its what I’m used to doing (a few years ago lol).

Thankyou for taking the time to read this and sorry if it was a bit rambley.
-Aaron

If I was running a school, I’d only suspend the aggressor.

Co-signed. I was in middle school about a decade ago, and there was the usual “zero tolerance” policy towards violence. Which in reality meant “we’re going to punish everybody involved equally regardless of the circumstances.” It was clear that the adults who were responsible for us (who, I might mention, were mostly female, make of that what you may) were not interested in justice, but in putting up a show of opposing violence while not actually putting effort into anything of the sort. If you were attacked or got your stuff stolen at school–tough luck getting any help. You really only had two choices. One, submit to your attacker. That’s a shitty way to live, under another person’s virtually unrestrained dominance, though I suppose if you for whatever reason wanted to please the adults above your own well-being that’s what you would do. Two, fight back. Since you were going to get punished for defending yourself anyways, it was prudent to go for broke. (So much for preventing violence.) Yeah, you would probably get suspended, but if you could intimidate your attackers enough they would stop fucking with you. I can’t say I personally was attacked or got into fights a lot, or that I was the biggest or strongest. In fact, I was a somewhat skinny nerd. But I was fast, and more importantly, when it came to fighting I was just fucking crazier than the (few) people I fought.

Still, even back then I was taught never to hit a female (not that I was ever physically attacked by a female), and eventually I learned to curb my violence in general. It was part of becoming an adult, or so I was told. After (at least nominally) arriving in the world of adults, though, it seems that the way adults use authority towards each other is often no better than the way they used it towards children, and that violent dominance games aren’t only played by males, children, or individuals. Nowadays I find myself wondering if I need to be ready to take up the sword again. The potential consequences would certainly be more severe this time–at least there is only so much damage a child can likely do to another physically.

Aaron1988,

Short answer, WTF?

Aaron,

That really WAS a pretty fucking confusing post. But from what I can tell, you’re looking to break out of the whole binary “doormat vs. douche bag” frame.

The thing you have to realize is that though the nice guy and the ass hole seem worlds apart, they both, at heart, “pedestalize” women. They’ve just adopted different strategies for getting female approval. And while it’s true that douche bags fare better than doormats in the SMP, being a douche bag is hardly a great strategy for long term fulfillment and happiness.

The way out is to learn how to be a real man. Yohami likes to recommend Dr. Paul’s Mind OS. I think that’s a great book, too. In addition, I would also check out David Deida’s The Way of the Superior Man and Robert Glover’s No More Mr. Nice Guy. All easy reads, and all will help you develop into a stronger, more mature man if you apply the ideas in them.

The doormat thinks that worshiping a woman is going to win her love. This is so fucking wrong that it would be laughable if it a. weren’t such a common outlook, and b. didn’t lead so many men to abject heartbreak.

The douche bag thinks that manipulating and denigrating a woman is going to win her affections. It works, sometimes. But, of course, the women you attract are basket cases. And, truth be told, you’re a basket case, too, since being a shit makes you feel like shit in the end.

The real man knows that the way to attract quality women is to develop his own personal value. When you develop and grow your own value, you become more confident, more successful, and more selective. And you don’t hand your balls over to the first pretty girl that gives you the time of day, because, since you value yourself so highly, you want to screen her more thoroughly and make sure she’s worthy of your commitment to her.

Are there any websites/blogs you would recommend?

This one. Stick around. Dogsquat and Mike C have some pretty solid relationship advice, and Yohami and Badger know a lot about real game. Both Yohami and Badger have blogs with some great advice on it too.

Some advice I can give about relationships:

1. Always be willing to walk away. Your woman is not the most important thing in your life. If she is…. then get a life. Have a purpose, and while you should allow your woman in your life, you shouldn’t let her distract you from your purpose.

2. Define your terms for your relationship. This isn’t being an asshole. Everyone has terms that are non-negotiable. Articulate for yourself what yours are. You shouldn’t sit your woman down and “tell” her your terms. It wouldn’t help anyway. If you tell her your terms, she’s still going to challenge them. That’s what women do. They’re called shit tests, or fitness tests. Just know for yourself what you’re willing to negotiate and what you’re not.

3. Learn to express yourself without having to explain yourself. There’s no need to justify why you think or feel what you do. It’s you. If she accepts you, then she accepts your feelings. Otherwise, she’s not worth it.

4. Her shit is not your shit. You don’t need to fix all her issues. She’s a woman. She’s always going to have issues. Respect her, listen to her, but don’t feel like you have to “save” her. Let her feel what she feels without getting all enmeshed in her feelings. If she had a lousy day, you don’t need to be in a bad mood as a result.

If I think of anything else, I’ll continue. The above is pretty solid advice though, I think.

I guess the real question, Aaron, is why you would want to be with someone like that in the first place.

She wasn’t like it when I first met. I haven’t really had alot of dating experience as I have only dated 2 women (first 18 months second 3 1/2 years) we aren’t actually together, just living together until I move out (as soon as my new place is ready) so it will give me an oppotunity to learn to be more assertive and unlearn my doormat tendencies or at least learn a bit in the short amount of time I have to put up with her for (I know that sounds bad).

-Aaron

There’s another thing about “go for mine” that needs to be mentioned. I didn’t grow up in a feminist household or school, but from a young age I was made aware of the alleged shortcomings of bad lovers – not caring about her pleasure, not enough foreplay, being fussy about wearing condoms, rolling over and sleeping as soon as he’d finished, etc. So of course I was inculcated into a nice-guy mindset that I wasn’t going to be selfish like those guys was I?!?

But like in most other arenas with women, trying to please gets a man nowhere. The frame that works is “join me, I’m going to enjoy this and you’ll be pleased as a collateral benefit.”

Now, with the knowledge I have, I view it as another combination of nice-guy fitness test and women saying one thing and responding to another (hamstersheeling).

@ JM – Holy shit!  I never thought about it, but you are 100% correct.  The PUA guys all claim that Nice Guys(TM) put women on a pedestal, but the fact that they spend so much time and effort to GET female attraction shows that they do as well!

That is truly ironic.  I’m sure this isn’t a new concept to most, but I really never gave it a thought.  I always felt like I was missing some piece of the puzzle.  Like something just didn’t sit right with me when reading Rossy, Roosh, etc.  But I think that was it!

Nice Guys(TM) – put women on a pedestal for relationships

PUAs – put women on a pedestal for sex

So the best thing to be is, neither!  My goal is to not put anyone on a pedestal.  That is the quick way to giving someone else all the power, and even the nicest, most honest person has difficulty not abusing power.  Instead I’m shooting for balance, as in neither I nor my SO has ALL the power.  It may vary a bit from day to day, but in the end balance is key.

Kinda like mutually assured destruction. :p

“ Nice Guys(TM) – put women on a pedestal for relationships
PUAs – put women on a pedestal for sex”

Intriguing. And from what I hear, both these behaviors tend to garner bitchy women.

This + 1,000

At some point, men have got to wonder exactly what type of women they are getting involved with by acting this way.

If you act like a doormat with no self-respect, you will attract women who aren’t stable themsleves.

If you act like a complete PUA or domineering asshole, you will attract women who also aren’t stable.

Dark Side,

I don’t have a problem finding these men. I have a problem in getting them to stick around.

“Every woman SAYS that she wants a kind, responsible, respectable man and would never date a jerk.”

Not every woman. Some or many, but not all.

Bb is right. Some women admit that they prefer “Dark Triad” types. They are very rare. Even the women who write love letters to serial killers in prison say things like, “he has a really good heart” and “he is just misunderstood”. Very few, if any, say “I am attracted to him because he is a serial killer’ — even though that is all they know about him.

PS> Or maybe I am just as delusional as everyone else. I probably don’t know squat about anything.

Susan,

“And I’m adding you to the column of women here who genuinely like beta guys.”

Has Connor dialed you back yet?

It got me to musing on my blog that virgins over 25 are hardly better off in the dating market than women with two-digit partner counts.

I was thinking the same thing recently. Virgins and sluts are two sides of the same coin. Men would prefer to deal with neither.

@SayWhaat

This tangent has reminded me of a college friend for whom relationship experience was very important. She preferred to date only guys with an ex-girlfriend count in the same ballpark as her own ex-boyfriend count. Her reasoning was that people “practice” on each other before finding the one they actually want to settle down with, and that she didn’t want to be with someone who had had less practice than she had and whom she’d have to show the ropes.

(If you’re interested, my latest post is all about her outlook on relationships. It’s linked right under this comment.)