Playing the Long Game

@wavevector

As I said comments #6, #10 & #14 is me lovelost.

I have indicated in #10 understand the context. She is claiming a trophy by using never paid for dates. There is nothing wrong once in a while to buy a guy at least a coke. It is called consideration.

I don’t agree with everything she said. Personally I cannot stand dating. And in today’s college / 20s age range, people don’t go on official dates until there are already mutual feelings. That part of the advice is a bit antiquated.

However I do agree with the “no in, in or in” part. As I said elsewhere, no sex without love is the best way for a girl to protect herself. Genuine love lasts longer than “relationships” which are often transient in the modern age.

I also like what she said about being honest upfront about what she wants. I told guys upfront that I was looking for love and didn’t do anything, not even kissing, without love. With a few exceptions, most guys respected that. Men don’t go for the goodie-two shoes girl when they want to just have “fun,” but those who are more serious and mature do.

As an aside I think the art of social graces has been lost — both men’s appreciation of it and women’s ability to demonstrate it. Writing thank-you notes was an etiquette must back in the day. My husband and I wrote e-mail correspondences to each other as we were courting. It was very romantic to us, but many people would think it’s strange and a waste of time.

@Isabel,

“I love how you couldn’t find anything concrete to criticise and ended up randomly clutching at straws. :/ ”

Do you hear in her words that every step she took is correct? That’s what is disconcerting to me.

Additionally would you go back to your ex if his presence gives you goosebumps, if not in literal sense?

I’m not understanding the math. She’s 40, met her man at 30, has tingles 10 years later but her daughter is nearing college age and is a teen? Single mom when she met her man? Trans-parenty?

Lovelost/Anon,

No, not that. The wee quips about gender equality, coke and deltas. They struck me as a little passive-aggressive if I’m honest.

If only Isabel could agree with that.

Ha, you shouldn’t have said that. Now I’m definitely going to do it. >:)

@Susan,

Now this question is for you. Do you believe in her story? It sounds to good to be true, and there is host of questions/information that are missing?

@Isabel,

its’ not about being passive aggressive. it’s an observation. i can’t believe others don’t see it that she indicating her decisions were always right, how can that be?

Yeah, when Susan writes that she “really can’t imagine a more thoughtful strategy or more effective implementation,” I have to shrug a little bit.

Let’s face it, Jhane Sez got lucky.  And not in the sense that guys mean. She beat the odds.  The odds against her were really long and she beat them.  Good for her. But the number of 40-somethings with illegitimate children who manage to beat those odds is going to be vanishingly small.

Hence a far better strategy is: don’t hook-up when you’re young and don’t have kids out of wedlock.

BTW, I assume her cyber-handle is a reference to Perry Farrell’s ex, which is not a good sign.  I hate to be all Spenglerian all the time, but music like that is bad for you.  If you want pop, try the Beach Boys.  At least they’re upbeat and harmless.  Better yet, move on to Beethoven.

OK, if I am being bad, I hereby submit my wrist for slappage.

However I completely disagree that it doesn’t matter.  The circumstances of this child’s birth are absolutely integral to the value and interpretation of the story.

I wasn’t gonna mention the math thing for the sake of the discussion, but it does sound wrong. She didn’t date in her late twenties(presumably because of the child), later found a beta in her thirties that would take on the role of a husband. Guess you can have your cake and eat it too.

lovelost, in what ways?

I find that I really “get” the male perspective on a gut level. Men generally LOATHE the idea of being with a woman who already has a child, but who is not his biological own. Men who are family-oriented would especially want to leave their own legacy, not raise some other man’s kid. From the perspective of the child, the biological parent also holds a special significance that the step-parent does not have.

This is the origin of the male desire for female virgins, and why in modern day even with condoms and birth control, men don’t like promiscuous women and want paternity testing if they have any doubt. It’s as primal as the desire for clean food and water. Women who have had too many past partners feel “tainted” to men, and a child would be a direct, physical and living proof of it.

Not saying that this is “right” or even logical, because genetically speaking people of the same “race” are mostly interbred to a certain extent already. But it is THE reason why men are so keen to bring this up over and over again in this discussion. It’s that important to men. My husband has expressed thoughts along these lines to me a few times, and I have no doubt that he would have been MUCH more hesitant about marrying me if I already had a child when we met. And I wouldn’t blame him.

“Why even focus on her daughter’s bio father, who is clearly out of the picture?”

When you’re speaking from intimate experiences, it seems a bit suspicious to leave out such important details.

It’s one thing to expect a guy to wait when you’ve been celibate for 5 years. It’s another thing entirely to expect him to wait when you were having sex with some other guy a week or a month prior.  Women who want to suddenly shift “strategies” may have to sit it out a while as this one did.

Also, what struck me here is the way mens’ independent needs or wants are demonized when they don’t, at that particular time, perfectly mesh with what she is thinking.

“And what I found was that a man who wasn’t willing to wait the 12 weeks wasn’t worth waiting for . . .”

“I discovered that most of the guys I dated just wanted to get laid first and figure out if they wanted a relationship later, or they wanted a relationship that would allow them to keep their options open while they waited for the better deal.”

It’s fine to say they weren’t a fit, but we see perjorative terms like “not worth waiting for”, “just wanted to get laid . . .,” “waiting for a better deal.”   Never mind that the majority of women seem to looking for a better deal when they are in relationships – that, of course, is just following their hearts.  But guys have independent needs that don’t make them bad people.  If it doesn’t mesh with your wants, that’s fine.

But, like somebody said above, she mostly got lucky.  Having a child out of wedlock and then behaving in a super chaste manner with subsequent suitors is probably not a winning strategy for most.  Glad it worked out for her.  Assuming that’s a real picture, he looks like a very nice guy, and it’s good she’s attracted to him.  Would she have been in her early 20s?   Others have described him as an “ex”, but I got the sense he was somebody she knew before but who didn’t catch her eye then.

I recognize Jhane from verysmartbrothas.  I always have liked her posts there, even when I disagreed with her.

One of the things that jumped out at me after reading this is that she must be really attractive, to be able to go out on 2 or 3 dates a week, for any length of time, and find not one of those men acceptable for years.  That’s Dimepiece behavior/mentality, in my experience, and women lower on the totem know they can’t get away with that.  That is, they can’t date 100% on their own terms, like the paragons can.

The numbers here don’t add up.

First let’s do her age ones:

<blockquote>In my late 20’s I went for 5 years without having sex.</blockquote>

So she was at least 26 but more likely 27 or 28 (cause 26 is middle 20’s) when she began this celibate until Mr. marriage monogamous, right?

<blockquote>And he got it in 8… but again for transparency, we’d met in college and reconnected in our 30’s… but he’s still got me like a Jill Scott song… 10 years later and I still get goosebumps… when he touches me.</blockquote>

30’s suggests she was at least 31, more likely at least 32.   Women tend to say “reconnected when I was 30 if that’s the case.)

<blockquote>I am now 40 with a teenaged daughter a year away from the college hook up culture that she will have to navigate… and I am terrified, which is why I am here.</blockquote>

A daughter a year away from college means she’s at least 16 today, more likely 17.  40 minus 16 equal 24.   Does not compute.

Unless she was a single mother when looking for Mr. right that is.  Which I think is a pretty major withholding of information.

For the record I SCORN single mothers and consider it virtually ENTIRELY their fault.  All but one of the 10 or some reversible methods of birth control are within the female’s exclusive knowledge and control, and the one that isn’t, the condom, greatly reduces the pleasure of sex (especially for the male but for both).  Hence most couples in relationships don’t choose it.   If I had a reliably reversible vasectomy plug available (which is in clinical trials in Australia and India), you’re damn right I’d chose that.  Having failed at contraception she should have either chosen plan B, aborted the child, or given it up for adoption.

Period.

Susan–

So now hubby gets to put or help put someone else’s daughter through college and maybe grad school?  A girl that was likely at least 9 or 10 before she began interacting heavily with her step father??

NO THANK YOU.

I mean unless the guy’s Bill Gates and even then I’d want at least two of my own.  Demand it.

Doug1, there is an HTML tab that is greyed out. You can use that tab if you are more comfortable editing the HTML yourself.

So refreshing to someone take responsibility for their relationship status.

One of my facebook friends just broke up and she posted about how fate can be so cruel sometimes and that we have to trust in the universe to make it all work out.

But the man she broke up with was an obvious cad. She knew this, because she had dated him before. The first time they broke up, it was because he had been keeping a secret mistress in Peru during their whole relationship.  You can’t blame “fate” if you give a cad a second chance.

Hope, I am not recommending that anyone have sex with anyone else. But to simply make a blanket statement like, “waiting for love is great advice” or whatever, doesn’t seem so great when you realize how many guys will not know how they genuinely feel about a girl until after they have banged her.

However, what I just said has almost no implications towards what a young woman should do.

@ Escoffier – I can’t speak for any other fathers here, but I would LOVE to see what you come up with.  I’m still trying to figure out how to explain all this to my 12yo son.  Frankly, I’m a little more concerned about my 17yo daughter at the moment.  Mostly because she is 17…

——————————————–

As to men’s aversion to raising some other man’s kids.  Well, call me a sucker but the 17yo daughter I am so concerned with in regards to the current SMP is not biologically mine.  I met her mother (my ex-wife) when she was around 2 years old, and since I have been her father in every respect of the word other than DNA.  Now my ex also gave me a son, yet I don’t love my daughter any less.  Post divorce, I am with another women that also has two children, a son and a daughter.  My son and I live with her and her two children and we are working out very well.

Why would I do this, twice?  Well as an ISTJ that is pretty serious about “duty” and “obligation”, here goes my reasons:

1. I myself am the product of an unwed mother.  I find it hypocritical of me to judge a women based on having children with other men before me.

2. Just because both women had children did not make them any less (or more) appealing to me as a mate.  The things about them I loved would have likely been the same had they not had children.

3. My daughter and my current SO’s children deserve the chance to grow up in a stable household.  Granted, my marriage didn’t end up stable, but the reasons for that have much to do with my former betatude and very little to do with my ex’s having had a child before she met me.

4. At my age (41), I am not likely to find a women without children.

5. If I am able to give these children a better life, then I’ve done something to better the world.  It isn’t their fault that things ended up as they did.

Just because three out of the four children I am currently parenting are not biologically mine, does not mean I can’t successfully raise them to be good, productive people.  Yes, I fully admit that having one biological child makes this an easier stand for me.  If my son had not come from my first marriage, I may still be wanting to have one of my own.  But, I am thankful that at my age I do not have to start all over with diapers and bottles, but get the opportunity to be involved in raising a few extra.  In my opinion, we need more children from stable, loving homes.  I can’t help them all, but I will do my best to help these children become good people.  And I get the satisfaction of spreading my ideals farther than if I only had my son to raise.  Sure, I want my genes to go on through my son.  But if I was truly honest, I think it is more important that my ideals are passed on than my DNA.

There are men willing to raise someone else’s children.  If you expect a guy to take on the enormous responsibility of raising another man’s children, you will need to show him that the investment is a wise one.  You will have to either work out your relationship with your children’s father(s) to minimize conflict, or do your best to minimize their impact on your life with your new man.  You will need to accept that your new man will either want to be an active part of your children’s lives, or he may want to stay aside and allow you and their bio-father to do the raising. (I personally do not see how the second situation would work.  If there are children living in my house, they must see me as an authority figure to be respected and listened to. But in cases with the bio-father is still very involved with his children, I suppose this could work.)

I will say that in my situation my ex and I have a good relationship despite our divorce.  In fact, we get along much better now that the pressure of trying to be a happily married couple is gone.  My ex also likes my current SO a great deal, and she trusts my judgement enough to know that I would not put my son with a women that did not treat him well.  I’ve met my SO’s ex-husband, and he is an OK guy.  He is a lousy husband, but he isn’t a bad person.  He is obviously comfortable enough with me that his children are not being mistreated.  Together what we have is a very rare situation with two divorced people that have managed to avoid all the hate and drama that usually surrounds divorce.

Maybe I am a unicorn!

Now my ex also gave me a son, yet I don’t love my daughter any less.

Ted D, I am curious, if you actually did love your daughter less so than your son, would you say so (here, on the internet, where you are anonymous)?

1. I myself am the product of an unwed mother.  I find it hypocritical of me to judge a women based on having children with other men before me.

Ted, that would not necessarily make you a hypocrite. For instance, if you were less than thrilled with being raised by an unwed mother and you were then less than thrilled with the prospects of dating/marrying an unwed mother, then that would be completely inline with your initial feelings and thoughts.

here goes my reasons:

3. My daughter and my current SO’s children deserve the chance to grow up in a stable household.

Ted, by that logic, then, you should be adopting all sorts of orphans.

Ted, it must seem like I am picking on you, and, maybe I am, but you are definitely putting forth some lazy logic.

If you wanted to do something, then do it. You do not need to attempt various kinds of logic to defend your actions. Also, it makes you sound White-Knighty.

I don’t see the point in putting any effort into this kind of “abstract thought” since it leads to nothing usable.

Ted, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people out there who obviously love their biological children more than there step children (and I am not implying that you are one of them). We can easily see this with some of their actions.

However, I am confident than none of them ever declare this basic fact online…even with complete anonymity.

So, knowing this, when someone says something like, “Oh, and I absolutely do not love my one child any less than the other”, it does not really say much. Again, White Knighty.

It can feel like the person is stroking themselves, regardless of how they actually feel.

Here, forget all of that and let me simply say this:
I would never rape my children.

…

(Well, who the fuck would ever say otherwise.)

Susan, I think the best that can be said for her is that she played the hand she was dealt–and that she dealt herself–as well as possible.  That’s not bad.  She was also (extremely) lucky.  But luck can’t be emulated and is not a strategy.

As for the kid, she’s extremely, super, highly, integrally relevant.  There are only a handful of possibilities:

1) Happy marriage to a good husband; he died.

2a) Married to a man who walked out; totally blindsided by it.

2b) Married to a man who walked out; knew he was a player but believed he had reformed/thought she could reform him/took a chance.

3a) Married to man who did something that genuinely warranted divorce; came as total surprise; left him.

3b) Married to man who did something that genuinely warranted divorce; could/should have seen it coming; left him.

4) Married to a man who was too dull for her or something didn’t click; no longer “in love”; left him.

5) Not married to baby’s father at all (several ways to spin this one out but I’ll refrain).

As a hard-hearted male, my sympathy declines as we go down the list.

Badger–

What we’ve been struggling with here at HUS is the question of “is there a reward for guys waiting for sex, is waiting going to produce better payoff than pushing for poon and dropping off if you don’t get it by date #3?” Susan, Hope, SayWhaat and others have made the case that there is a payoff, that the long-term reward in loyalty and connection is worth the short-term loss of sexual gratification.

My basic answer to that is no, and I’m including greater beta and probably beta guys willing to learn at least some game in that as well.  No for guys that is.  I do think there’s a reward for girls but not usually guys.

Girls especially ones who comment as opposed I’d imagine to just read here often say there is.  That is they often say they won’t date or sleep with “man whores” with a pretty low bar to what they consider that, similar to that most guys here especially (and particularly among the clear betas) have for what makes a girl a non marriage material slut.   But basically I don’t believe them, or don’t think it is really how by far most girls operate.  I think the large, large majority of clearly non slutty good girls who aren’t real religious from a very celibate until married church with very happily date and mate with a guy who says and acts like he’s done sowing his wild oats and really wants to settle down.

As it stands, my speech would go something like this if he turns out to be an alpha.  I haven’t really thought through the beta speech yet though a lot of this would apply.

Son, the times you face are different from when I was a kid.  Every old man says that but this time it’s really, really true.  Moreover, the times are worse.  You can call me Abe Simpson if you want but I’m smarter than you and better read and have more experience.  Ignore this at your peril.  In any event, you’re going to be forced to listen to it.

As a dude, you will naturally be hot for a lot of women.  This feeling is not going to go away, if it ever does, until you are very, very old.  It’s not naturally good or bad, it just is.  It actually has two useful purposes: it helps perpetuate the species and the sheer power of the urge helps men bond to their wives and fulfill their lives.

But what you do with it can be good or bad.  That’s never neutral.  We’re not animals; not even “higher animals” and I don’t care what Steve Pinker and E.O. Wilson and their like say.  They are very smart as far as they go but they have not refuted Aristotle’s (and others’) conception of the soul and of logos (speech/reason).  You’re not just an unusually smart ape.  You’re a man.  Men have a nature that is different and higher than apes or any other animal.  The purpose of your life is to fulfill that nature as best you can.

You will not do so by screwing around.  In fact, you will do the opposite.  You will waste time and energy, you will pursue low ends at the expense of high ends, you will numb the higher and more sublime receptors in your soul, you will turn yourself into a cynic and a misogynist, and you will make yourself unfit for marriage and fatherhood.  There is nothing more pathetic than a player past his prime.

And that’s just what you’ll do to yourself.  You’ll also do a lot of harm to various girls and their families.  It’s no good to retort that they have free will, too.  Of course they do.  To the extent that you can get some girl to screw you on the first date, she is absolutely 50% to blame (at least).  But that still leaves a hell of a lot of blame left over for you.

Some of those girls are just incorrigible sluts.  From the perspective of a young man looking to get laid, it sure seems great that there are all these willing chicks out there.  Well, you don’t want them.  You may think you want them for one night, but they are not worth even one night.  See above for the reasons; that’s before we even get to disease.  Also, to the extent that they are willing to degrade themselves, you do not want to be a party to that.  There is no glory in being an accomplice to vice.

Other girls, not necessarily sluts, are confused, impressionable, and in the grip of a low aspect of their nature that they don’t quite understand.  At least the low aspect of your nature–wanting to rack up a big body count–is easy for you to understand.  Girls have it a bit harder.  On the one hand, “nice” girls want boyfriends and eventually husbands.  But it’s not quite that simple.  They want the best one they can get and which male they perceive as best can change rather rapidly.  Since they are not honest with themselves about this, it is much harder for them to control their low nature than it is for you.  So even “nice” girls can be willing to have sex with you very early.

There are only three possible outcomes.  First, you forget them once you are done with them.  Second, they forget you once someone they perceive as “better” comes along.  Third, it magically all works out and you get married and live happily ever after.

The likelihood of number three is like an asteroid strike.  It’s not impossible, it happens every hundred million years or so, but let’s get real.  The outcomes of 1 & 2 are likely heartbreak for both you.  Don’t underestimate your capacity for feeling burned from casual sex.  Just because you’re a guy doesn’t mean you don’t have a heart.  Plus, to the extent that the girl is basically decent but in the thrall of an urge she doesn’t understand, you are not helping her become better; you are making her worse–for your own pleasure.  Don’t do that.

What I want for you is what I have with your mother: love, trust, committment, respect, and all those other high-minded things that make you roll your eyes now but WILL make you happy when you are older and for decades to come.

I wish I could guarantee that you will find the “right” woman.  I can’t.  There is never any guarantee for anyone of anything and right now, especially in this screwed up battle of the sexes, it’s going to be harder for you to find a good wife than it was for me.  That is the hand you were dealt.

Here’s how you play it.  Be decent.  Behave yourself.  Study hard.  Have fun but don’t become a pussy hunter.  Don’t hang out with pussy hunters.  Stay away from that whole scene.  Learn something about how women really are.  I can help you with this.  You will need to learn how to tell the truly good girls from the phonies and the obvious snanks (though spotting the latter should be relatively easy).  When you think you have found one, there are things you should look for.  Above all, character.  I have tried to teach you what this is and instill it in you your whole life and I hope I have succeeded.  If you need more help figuring out what character traits to look for in a wife and how to spot them, let’s talk more.

Now, you’re thinking “I’m too young to get married, and all this implies that  I have to wait to have sex until I’m married.  And that’s really old fashioned and out of date.  All my friends will be getting laid and I will seem and feel like a loser.  Plus, getting laid sounds really great and how the hell am I supposed to wait that long?”

Fair question.  The way society used to handle this, you got married relatively young and so you got to have lots of sex really young.  If boys and girls fooled around before the wedding day, nobody got too upset so long as they were discrete about it.  You didn’t miss much except the variety.

Waiting to have sex until you are 28 or 30 sounds crazy in this day and age but you know what?  So what. We don’t go by what the morals of the age say, we go by what’s right and what’s best for us.  Second, just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it can’t be done.  Third, who says you have to wait that long?  Get married earlier if you want and if you can.  Fourth, if you have a girl you are clearly committed to and she’s clearly committed to you and you eventually end up at the altar when it makes financial sense for you, no one is going to be snooping to see if you really waited until the wedding night.

Don’t however, take that as licence to screw around.  The point is this.  You want your lifetime sexual partner count ideally to be one.  That’s right.  One.  Sounds crazy and out of date but it makes so much sense for so many reasons.  I’m going to spell out the three most important.

First, ingrained in your and every male’s nature is a hard-wired jealousy.  Jealously not just of possible cheating but of what your partner did BEFORE she met you.  You will be propagandized not to care about this but no matter what you are told, you will still care.  You will not be able to make that feeling go away.  Which is good.  Because that feeling is there to protect you, both your soul and your body, in concrete ways.  Well, do unto others.  What you would expect of her (and I absolutely urge you to expect that of her), you should be able to offer her.  Fair is fair.

Second, the more variety you experience, the harder you will be to please, the more you will feel that you are “missing out’ by committing to one.  Some will try to tell you that you will be “missing out” by not screwing around, that it’s best to “sew your wild oats” and then “settle down” but the exact opposite is true.  The more playing you do, the more you will want to keep playing.  And even if you can commit to monogamy, enforcing it on yourself will require extra effort.  And you will feel dissatisfied, which could lead to resentment of your wife.

Third, and I’m sorry to have to get a little graphic here, but it’s necessary.  When you’re a young man the urge is super-powerful.  It gradually declines.  But when it is at its most powerful, you have an opportunity to do yourself a lifetime favor.  People only really get one shot at a “honeymoon.”  I mean that in the precise sense of two people having sex for the first time, they go off to Hawaii for two weeks and do nothing but screw because the pent-up sexual urge just floods out.  That is a bonding experience that will glue a guy and girl together forever IF they are each other’s firsts and IF they are otherwise well matched.  If you go off on your wedding nght already as sexually experienced as Hugh Hefner, you have missed out big time. That is, unless you’ve already had your honeymoon with your bride before the altar.  The point is, ONE.

Now, that may not happen.  You may try to do everything I am saying, think you have found the ONE, have sex, and then she leaves you or somehow you realize that you have made a mistake and can’t go through with a marriage.  OK.  That’s sad, but it’s not the end of the world.  One is an ideal to strive for, try to make it happen, but if it doesn’t, then the next best thing is TWO.  Etc.  Low numbers, not high numbers, as low as possible.  Don’t have sex unless you are damned sure it’s leading to altar and a lifetime committment.

OK. We’ve read a lot Shakespeare together growing up.  There was a point.  Remember Ariel and Caliban in The Tempest?  Prospero is able to govern the highly rational Ariel with sweet reason whereas the base and animalistic Caliban requires harshness.  Well, I hope I have raised you to be rational.  I certainly have tried.  I hope you will understand everything I have said and live your life that way because you realize it is right and makes sense.

Nonetheless to be safe and add an extra layer of insurance, here’s the Caliban speech.  If you behave like a player and screw around, I will punish you.  You will lose privileges.  You will be grounded.  Your life will become harder, more structured and more unpleasant–not in a punitive way, but with the aim of getting you back on track.  If, after you leave this house for college, you plunge headlong into the hook-up scene and I find out about it, you’ll have one chance to correct course before I stop paying. I will find out.  Call it spying or whatever you want but I am damned sure going to ensure that I get a return on my investment.  And I’m not going to subsidize behavior that I know is wrong and that is bad for you.

Once you are out from under me forever, you can of course do what you want.  But know the consequences.  On a certain level, simply as my offspring, you will always have my unconditional love.  But you will never have my unconditional respect or admiration.  You have to earn those.  If you calculate that you would rather live without them, that’s your choice.  Just know in advance what you are doing and what you are giving up.

Totally awesome. We have nothing to lose with caution, and everything to lose with going too fast or giving in to demands to do so.

“However, I have to ask, what’s wrong with having no strings attached sex with the “tempting no-relationship types” along the way while you’re looking for what want?”

Typical modern society think.

“So, in summary, all available female options include a high probability of getting dumped. The only alternative strategy is that described by Jhane Sez.”

The alternative strategy also has a high probability of being dumped. Hey, its called dating. Dating means you will be dumped unless it is marriage. And marriage only happens once if done right.

I’ve been saying this a lot. Everyone who wants a LTR must risk getting dumped and risk dumping unsuitable candidates. To hang on with unsuitable candidates prevents you from meeting the right candidate when they might show up. Stop this nonsense of foolish dating.

@Susan

I’m somewhat confused here.

Most women in college are hardly preoccupied with finding a husband, and even those who do find a partner generally do not wish to marry at graduation.

I completely agree, in fact 21 is probably little too early to get married, IMO. Anyhow the reasoning is quite plausible.

There are many possible explanations, but the one that seems the most unlikely is that she turned this guy down for marriage even though they were in love during college.

So if she wasn’t in love with this guy during her college days, the question of marriage doesn’t come up. Again I concur.

In that case it would be reasonable to accept that they were good friends. Which then, still leads to the questions,  what is it she saw 10 years down the lane that made her fall in love with this guy.

That was more of my dry humor. I’ll look into comment luv, danke.

@Ramble, if relationships get started that way for most people, that’s fine. But is that really the wisest and most prudent way to go about it? I can’t do it, personally. I don’t throw around the word “love” lightly. Lots of guys passed me up, but no hard feelings. You’re not the only one to be skeptical. Susan also thinks this isn’t going to work for most girls, and she may be correct.

This works for me because I fall in love with my mind, heart and soul before my body. I literally do not tingle for a guy without having talked to him for hundreds of hours and knowing all about him and loving him on that deeper level. I’m not cut out for celebrity worship, chasing alphas, sex before love, or even kissing and making out before love. For me, this is not so much a calculated strategy as it is who I am. I’m being “true to myself,” as cheesy as that sounds.

There are other girls like me. They got dunked into the hooking up culture but who hate it and don’t see any other way. Well I’m trying to tell those girls that there is another way. Don’t turn off the inner yearning for a meaningful connection, talk to guys, get to know them, don’t be afraid to be emotionally vulnerable, don’t rush into physical stuff, and respect your body. Sex with love is mind-blowingly awesome. Definitely worth the wait.

“Most women in college are hardly preoccupied with finding a husband, and even those who do find a partner generally do not wish to marry at graduation.”

Over here over here! I’m one of those exceptions. If I was in a great relationship at graduation (albeit I would be older than 21) I’d love to be getting married. A great guy and being out of the SMP/MMP…. count me in.

The fact that JS attempts to tell the story of her dating life without even mentioning that she was a single mom for most of it is undeniably a big clue as to her level of insight. No doubt she feels that it was no big factor – or at least should not have been.

Which forces the question:”What other details of this story are being left out  because JS does not think they are or should be important”? Did she gain or lose 50lbs? Work in the sex trade? The mind boggles at what else her mind-set might be dis-regarding and editing out.

Heh I think you need a new tag Susan. No Safe For Men.

It seems to me that every time some woman is deciding to try and make smarter dating choices many men looks for reason to disqualify it, regardless of how many of them keep saying that sluts are not marriage material, but then the process in which a woman surely will end up becoming a slut  (having sex with a man before getting his commitment) shouldn’t disappear, I know the genders strategies are at odds, but I think repeating it, constantly doesn’t help the young women out there to understand what they are they supposed to do. Just saying.

what a thread! i read it in under an hour. extremely entertaining for a tuesday night in bed.

@Anacaona

I think we agree in that we need to be a little more sympathetic to what Jhane did: she changed her behavior and approach.  Whatever the underlying motivations, or situation she was/is in, she changed her behavior.  She stopped digging.

Now, that being said, her story is best seen as a cautionary tale, and not as a road map for twenty-something women to follow.  Your average woman, with a kid in tow in the mid-30’s, is going to have a much more difficult time finding someone than someone a decade younger with no kids (or even the same age with no kids).  Not to say it can’t happen, but relying on the winds of fate (as Kate Bolick did) to bring you what you want more than not only gets you blown away.

I’ve seen a couple of cases of this sort of scenario, beta guy marrying a single mom.  There are enough white knights out there who might go for that, particularly if the women is fairly attractive.  And, one of cases I’ve seen closely, they actually worked out, primarily because the woman in question had made a one time mistake and really changed everything about her life (including getting rid of toxic friends and family).  However, it’s still a triage situation, making the best of a not so perfect situation…

@Susan

Thus CH Maxim is true, Women desire men better than themselves. Gender equality is BS.

Btw if the guy SMV increased later in life, he is beta to go back to the girl and marry her with whom he couldn’t get a date in high school.

@Hope

You could look at it that way sure.  Or you could acknowledge that the single guys are trapped in this as well and do, in fact, want a relationship, but want to avoid getting burned.

BTW, Mike, I have to agree, if you are serious about a girl and you get to 3B on one date and all the sudden she’s calling you to stop at 1B the next date, yeah, that’s going nowhere, bail.

@Susan,

“I find it interesting you would say this now, having just received an email from a reader wistful for the days “before HUS became, you know, what it is.”

I’m there myself.  The comments form the guys seem to be getting unusually cynical.  That has to be driving women away which is incredibly disappointing.  My dating range extends to as young as 23 so I crave their perspective.  I wish more would post but I understand why they don’t.

“I agree with this. FWIW, I think even 8 weeks is probably a bit long, granny’s advice notwithstanding. Obviously, I’m not in this camp, having just written a post entertaining the idea of sex without any commitment at all.”

I agree and I’m not sure what the right time-frame is either.  I know I’ve waited 5 months before and the girl accidentally admitted to me (drunkenly) that I was a chump.  I’ll certainly never wait that long again.  Then again, the concept of kino was foreign to me so I didn’t know to test a woman’s response to my touch.

“Guys, this is wrong, wrong, wrong. It just is. This is by no means a common strategy or ploy. Let’s forget the alpha cock to beta paycheck meme for a second. Young woman, early 20s. If she has one or more ponies in the stable, she is definitely not dating beta and telling him to wait. She is hoping for a pony to commit.

Second, women dating in earnest for a relationship are not going on dates to get free food and drink. Today women in their 20s make 117% of what men in their 20s make. She doesn’t need to spend her evening with someone she’s not digging for the free linguine with clam sauce. She works hard, probably doesn’t go out much during the week. She is looking to spend her weekend nights with a guy she thinks is hot. If a woman is dating you and telling you she is attracted to you but not ready for sex, don’t tell yourself she’s milking you for free stuff.”

You know, I’ve never really looked at it like that.  I wrote about a girl who was surrounded by guys in a photo and that was a turn off to me.  That girl also drove a Lexus.  Amusingly enough, she still expected the guy to pay which I would have done if I was into her.  Part of the reason I wasn’t was she confessed she would run up a dinner bill if the guy was displeasing her.

This sort of goes hand in hand with something that I’ve been thinking about.  Something has clicked with me recently that I get a lot of what you’re saying.  I can find a story or point to my own history, in some cases easily, that counters just about any positive posting you’ve got.  I can then use that and say, “See?  All women are like that!”

But the thing is, I’m not trying to date all women.  I’m only trying to date a woman.  What I’ve found is, that one woman almost never conforms perfectly to my worst case scenario.  She’s going to have traits I dislike but everyone does.  And to your above quote, is it really such a bad thing if I take a woman out for a 40-50 dollar dinner bill and then decide she’s not for me?  Have I really lost so much that I’m not willing to risk that?  I don’t think so.

I guess I just wish guys were more optimistic about the women they meet / date.

@108Spirits

A story of romantic triumph for women, which reads like a cautionary tale for men.

Let me rephrase this for you.

A story of romantic triumph for women, which reads like a sure shot story of a beta’s love life.

LOL.

I just wanted to add  that happily married people are usually the best to get dating advice from.  Single girlfriends usually are the worst ones to go to, even if they mean well. If I had followed my roommate’s advice, such as having sex on the first few dates or asking a man “What are your intentions,” I wouldn’t have had the serious relationship that I did.   Everything came really easy with the last man I dated when it came to commitment and being cherished.  We broke up, because we weren’t as compatible as we thought.

Susan,

“The only relevant question, in my opinion, is – Is this a good way for a woman to find a partner?”

The best.

I agree except for the home cooked meals.  My wife has learned to cook basic things, but she hates it, she is slow, and she is not very good.  I can only cook a few nights a week at most but well, the food is better.

However, at every other domestic task, she is a master.

Anaecona, I’m glad there’s another female that agrees with me!   The question is how long do you wait? There’s no right answer to that question, but I waited 3 months.   I don’t regret doing it any sooner than 3 months.

@Susan

I disagree.  I love genuine, honest, caring women, I loath harpies.  If I am at war, I guess it is with the harpies.  However, I certainly didn’t intend to volunteer for the war, and if I’m in it, it’s more as a medic trying to prevent more casualties.  On both sides.

Esau-Are you a man or a woman? I’m the same anonymous that you quoted. I should change my username by now, so it doesn’t get confused!

Right on, Escaffier.

” Too many guys have gotten burned way too bad with that nonsense.”

Not half as many as women being burned by jumping into bed too soon. But, to avoid games, this is why it’s good to have everything laid out fairly soon. Hell, this is why it’s better to have none till marriage: then you avoid the awkward, “So..you ready now?” “Um, no. I’m sorry..” “Weell, I mean, are you really into me?..”

Heard this song, Just a Kiss by Lady Antebellum the other day driving and I listened to the powerful lyrics…it sums up what JS is trying to say about waiting to have an intimate sexual relationship, by letting the feelings build by just sticking to ‘a kiss’, etc..anything but sex and taking it slow. I know this isn’t very realistic for the hookup culture of young 20’s but a girl can dream that this is how things should be, a love that’s pure and untainted. You don’t have to accept her view, but at least understand where she’s coming from, and if anything listen to the song, it’s really great:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_yTphvyiPU&ob=av2n

Parts of the lyrics that stuck out to me:

[…]We don’t need to rush this
Let’s just take this slow

Just a kiss on your lips in the moonlight
Just a touch in the fire burning so bright
And I don’t want to mess this thing up
I don’t want to push too far
Just a shot in the dark that you just might
Be the one I’ve been waiting for my whole life
So baby I’m alright, with just a kiss goodnight

I know that if we give this a little time
It will only bring us closer to the love we wanna find

Susan : “Second, women dating in earnest for a relationship are not going on dates to get free food and drink.

She doesn’t need to spend her evening with someone she’s not digging for the free linguine with clam sauce. 

If a woman is dating you and telling you she is attracted to you but not ready for sex, don’t tell yourself she’s milking you for free stuff.”

I laughed so hard, I cried!   Linguine with clam sauce! ROTFL

Simple solution for guys- If you don’t want her milking you for free stuff, spend time getting to know each other doing simple things that don’t involve your wallet! Voila!

@JM

That is an interesting quote on the nature of surrender.  One life learning lesson there might be never to start a fight/battle thinking you’ll just surrender when things go south.

While we are on the military metaphors, I think it was an Admiral in the Japanese Navy who after Pearl Harbor while many Japanese were celebratory over their “victory” who remarked “I fear we have simply awoken a sleeping giant”.

It seems to me that every time some woman is deciding to try and make smarter dating choices many men looks for reason to disqualify it, regardless of how many of them keep saying that sluts are not marriage material, but then the process in which a woman surely will end up becoming a slut  (having sex with a man before getting his commitment) shouldn’t disappear,

I think it depends on where the change in deciision making comes from.  Is it sincere, genuinue, authentic.  Is it the result of careful introspection about past lifestyle choices.  Or does it come from more of a place of ruthless pragmatism where “hey, I had my fun” but now I’m switching gears so I can get X, Y, Z.  I think guys are on high alert for the latter.

- I’m aware that you will ignore this as you’ve ignored it in the past…

Yeah Isabel is very good at that. One wonders what she is trying to get out from her stay here at HUS? I mean I welcome her and anyone that comes but least you can do when your stir some issues up is reply? There is no rule saying we all have to agree, but surely we can have an inofficial “rule” to answer? Her behaviour here is like playing poker and just taking your money and leaving when you don’t feel you have a good hand.

@Susan

Keep in mind that he was the one who said he she was out of his league, not her. She laughed this off. In fact, she thought he was terrific when they met in med school. She fell for his sense of humor, and his brains. In fact, she is anything but shallow. He is not a physically attractive man, but she saw a fine husband and father in him, and he has delivered. They have two very attractive daughters.

Why does women who don’t feel attracted to men who are nerdy and wear thick glasses suddenly becomes attracted to man’s sense of humor? If you as a woman has rejected a guy when he was in high school for the above traits, then stick with your decisions. Don’t change your decision by saying “saw a fine husband and father”. That’s the Rationalization hamster in woman’s head.

In fact you didn’t feel attracted in high school live with your decision.

- Tell him to act like an alpha or else he should be prepared for beta heart break.

So basically give in to female hypergamy: encourage, bolster it and make it an even bigger problem than it already is? I don’t really like that idea.

@Valentin

But what… what happens when we turn the tables around?

here some of the response of women when you turn the table around.

1) Women gets into protective mode of preventing beta to become alpha. Will tell you that they like the nerdy types. That’s sarcasm not genuine appreciation. The guy was nerdy in high school, in college and finally JS realised she finds STEM guys

“I had no problem meeting men, and lots of them… mainly STEMs, I like smart, quirky, guys.”

This is f*cking BS.

2) Another exmple “I don’t understand you whatsoever. ” Women move into defensive position.

@HUS

I’m again asking the question.

Would women support a single dad having a child from previous marriage? Will you women out there support a  guy raise the kid?

let’s hear it from the ladies at HUS.

Rollo,

I agree with most of what you said in your post, but the truth is that we all, male and female, engage in revisionism to some degree when interpreting our own pasts.

But you’re right. The fact is that there are points that Jhane doesn’t address. And this is something that most women “changing strategies” and beginning to seek out beta men don’t really make explicit.

It’s easy to claim that one finds “nerdy” men attractive, but if that’s really the case, then how does one explain the fact that she spent her youth fucking cads? It’s all well and good for such a woman to claim that she didn’t know they were cads, but she certainly didn’t mistake the men she fucked for nerds.

If women were more honest, I believe that they would acknowledge that such changes in strategy follow upon the realization that the men they tingle for most will not give them what they want long term. But instead of honesty, you get revisionist hamster wheeling bullshit like, “I’ve always found nerdy men hot,” and, “I’ve never been attracted to jerks.”

Of course, this is decent bullshit, since a lot of guys eat it up, but it’s bullshit all the same. And for the men who see it for what it is, women dealing in such bullshit become poor relationship prospects, since the fact that they can’t even be honest with themselves makes them untrustworthy.

Escoffier at 122:

Epic comment.  Susan, if Jhane Sez gets her own post, this should be elevated to “its own post” status.

One quibble:  the “be nice” speech about a third of the way in.  Don’t agree that “be nice” is the way to go.  I also think the advice toward one partner is ideal, but ultimately extremely difficult and probably unworkable in this SMP.

Otherwise, this was incredible.

Susan, not quite.  The basic assumption was that she had glided over the circumstances of her child’s birth because the facts were not altogether flattering and would undermine the point of the rest of the story.  That assumption proved true.

As for the rest, yes, her strategy not only was wise, but it worked.  So that’s good.  But it was a strategy to be employed given the situation she was in.  Much better not to have been in that situation in the first place.  In other words, had she started “playnig the long game” even earlier, everything likely would have worked out much better and she would not have had to rely so much on Fortuna, who does not always ride to the rescue.

That’s my bottom line problem with your endorsement of her lesson.  You are willing to advocate celibacy and waiting for someone in her late ’20s with an illegitimate child, but not to college girls and young women entering the workforce.  At least, you seem quite ambivalent about outright endorsing waiting for the latter.

Reading through the threads, the following is pretty clear:

1.   Jhane’s strategy was good, but only for a woman in her late 20s-early 30s with a child. 

2.   She was extremely fortunate to find a man willing to get involved long term with a woman at her age with a child.   The odds of her finding someone were pretty poor, and she lucked out. 

3.    For purposes of this story it is very relevant that Jhane is a mom.  From what I hear of this SMP even fewer men would consider an LTR with a single mom.   And that affects whether this is a good strategy for young single women.

4.     I can’t say I agree that holding off on sex is going to be a good strategy in general for either sex.  Today, if a man is being told to wait, he concludes (often quite correctly) that she’s just not all that into him and he’s being played for a chump.  He’s got to push early on for sex or she will (often quite correctly) think he’s beta and thus her tingles fade, and then they both lose out.  She loses out on what could be a good prospect.  He loses out because the attraction is there but he hesitated. 

5.    Jhane’s story seems to be an exception, not the rule.

Why not ignore those who don’t make a reasonable argument? There are plenty of good men here debating in good faith. You don’t have to engage with someone who is out to prove you wrong no matter what you say.

I know I shouldn’t cut my nose off to spite my face but it’s frustrating to have to explain, re-explain, qualify and stress every casual remark just because I happen to be female. Meh, might as well take it as a learning curve and grow some thicker skin/earmuffs. I genuinely don’t know how you manage as the main dartboard.

@Valentin

Totally non-defensive correction but … if I’m defensive, it’s usually because some angry bellend is on the offensive. We can’t all be making the same complaints by coincidence, can we? There are plenty of posters who I disagree with but still have a lot of respect for here. Besides, I was defending Jane’s character, not mine. After all – I haven’t been accused of being a double schemer, a carouseler, a parasite, a neglectful mum, a sex worker or a reformed slut.

Anyway, I probably overstepped a line somewhere so sorry. -_-

- We can’t all be making the same complaints by coincidence, can we?

You are right on that of course.

Anyway, I probably overstepped a line somewhere so sorry. -_-

Absolutely no need, especially as you say you do seem to take alot more flak than anyone else.

I think everyone right now needs to cool off a bit and just assume what and how they put their point forward was too aggressive: wether that’s the case or they were right or whatever. Or simply put: turn the ego off. So I’m sorry Isabel if I seem to have been equally rotten to you and hope you stay with us please.

The silence from the guys now that Jhane Sez has explained herself is deafening.

LOL. The fact that it was the middle of the night might have something to do with it.  It’s now 8:45AM Pacific as I start this.

 She also refutes nearly every single assumption that men made here before she showed up.

Well, the one to which you seemed to take most offense was the assumption that she had her child out of wedlock (you used the term “illigitmate”, but I don’t care for that term and would resent it if it applied to me).  This assumption was correct, although it wasn’t really all that much of an assumption because it was by far the most logical conclusion from what she wrote.

What’s especially troubling, and annoying, is that without bothering to read her comment, someone trotted out the alpha-cock-to-beta-provider theory two and a half hours later.

I don’t really care for the whole “alpha cock” meme – it’s a bit crass, and very few people fit neatly into one category or the other.  But it’s probably still fair to say that she broadened her field of view considerably when she made the change. Nothing she wrote really refuted that assumption to me.  We still don’t know whether she would have considered her current SO back in the ’80s.  And, we’ll probably never know, even if she addresses the question.   Maybe it was just circumstances.  Maybe not.  I suppose if he was married back then, or she claims to have had a secret crush on him, it would largely negate the assumption.  But it sounds like he was just some guy she knew.

What strikes me about her subsequent posts is that they don’t really reflect the notion that her prior approach was in any way a failure.  She wasn’t getting pumped and dumped.  She had a long term relationship with a great guy who supported her through very tough times.  It didn’t lead to marriage (nor has her current approach), but it’s not clear that she even wanted it to in the absence of her child.  The only failure was in her use of birth control, although it would not be fair to categorize it that way since it resulted in a child who I am sure she adores and does not regret.  Does she regret her relationship with the bio father? I think not.  And most of the women you are speaking to here aren’t so much looking for a guy to propose – just a boyfriend.  That’s what she had.  But it was a different time.

Anyway, I’m glad it worked out for her.  But it just seems to me that this change in strategy was more for the protection of her daughter – i.e., so as not to introduce her child to a string of men who may or may not stay around.  That is very laudible, and is the right thing for a single mom to do, IMO.  Whether 12 weeks is the magic number or not, I don’t know. It seems pretty arbitrary.

Now, as to the basic question of whether there is a lesson to be learned and a value to waiting.   Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  If you had put your husband through a long waiting process, would he have assumed that you weren’t that interested?  Probably.   Would I have ended up with my wife if she had done that to me?  It’s hard to imagine that I would have.  Isn’t Saywhaat essentially attempting that to a much lesser degree with no success so far (this one is hard for me to understand, since she can still play the V card – I don’t get why guys aren’t waiting for that).  And, on reflection, I think some of the negative reaction may have been a result of her tone that implied (intentionally or not) that what she has now is just oh so much better than what anybody else has who had sex early in this relationship (that would include my marriage and yours).  I found the tone to be a tad condescending, whether she meant it that way or not.

On the other hand, I accept the stipulation that a lot of young women are sleeping with guys without a realistic hope of commitment and should stop doing so, assuming commitment is what they want.   As has been said many times, it may have more to do with their choices in partners.  In any event, they certainly shouldn’t have sex before they are comfortable doing so for their own enjoyment. Nobody is debating that (I don’t think).   But a drastic change in approach may require sitting on the sidelines for a bit so that a guy who is willing to wait won’t feel like a Chumposaurus.

Lastly, I am admit that I made one clearly erroneous assumption – that the picture you used might be of her current family (absent her daughter). lol

Anyway, this comment thread is too contentious for my tastes.  Signing out.

Student Guy,

FYI: If you think sex on the 3rd date is insane, and you’re critical of men who want casual sex, then I believe you’ll find The Game a disheartening and frustrating read.

Typo-What I meant is that the good guy that is LTR material is also the same guy that will not whine about waiting or has a “After 3 dates and no sex, I’m out.”

I believe we attract what we put out there. If I treat sex as something valuable and not to be handed out like spoiled milk, I will attract a guy that shares my views. If I think all men are pigs, that’s what I’m going to only see and get.

@Jhane

And with the expressed concern regarding false rape and stalking accusations, pregnancy scares, tricked into fatherhood stories, and concerns over being duped out of financial resources.. It would seem to me that mansphere would be the place that would most encourage waiting.

Wow. What a brilliant insight.

But I suppose there would be no point in waiting if one were operating under the assumption that all women are good for no more than a “pump and dump”–that every virgin is a solipsistic slut waiting to happen. Why wait for a potential partner’s true character to be revealed when you were already 100% sure of what her true character was before you even met her?

- OK, that’s my next post

I’ve tried to imagine what you might write on the subject but must admit I came up with nothing. I am very much looking forward to it Susan.

“Badger, get onto Comment Luv so Student Guy can click through!”

Commenluv stopped auto-filling during one of the site reskinnings. I’ve tried to get it back for this comment?

I’M DONE WITH SERGIO

I want to reiterate that I think Jhane Sez herself made all the right moves – from the moment she decided to get right, she picked a strategy and executed it, and she has a sort of whimsical optimism about the whole thing to boot that is charming. She doesn’t sound like a frat-cat, and she certainly exhibited agency in 1. rejecting men who didn’t overlap her wants/needs, and 2. allowing said men to walk away/reject her, without succumbing to ennui or trying to supplicate to get them back.

As I said, dating as a single mom does a lot of filtering; pretty much any guy who’s around for more than a couple of dates is going to lean to the dad side of the spectrum. The wait* will filter out most any casual bangers.

So for a woman with a child, this was the right move, not just for her but for her daughter, sparing her the revolving door of monthly Mommy’s Boyfriends (or uncles or however he might be euphemized) that afflicts many children of single parents.

As to whether she was lucky, sure she was. But luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Thanks to her strategy, she was prepared when opportunity struck. I concluded a while back that anyone with a functional marriage/LTR is lucky, because there are so many bad stories. It’s best when both sides think they were lucky, a la Susan and her husband, and there’s mutual incentive to value what they have.

I think the strategy has some limited applicability to young single women, for a number of reasons…first, because the auto-filter is not there, young single women will get loads of attention from dudes with all sorts of agendas, from bang-and-blame to marital lockdown. Young people are also just not as relationship-oriented as they are in their late 20’s, early 30s and etc. Being young is just riskier for any strategy because there’s so much noise in the system. When you’re young, the concept of opportunity cost is an abstraction – so a young woman is going to have more of a sense that she can experiment now and worry about the long game later, and a young dude might think “I’ve got all the time in the world – I can string this chick along for three months like she wants, bang her and get back out.” Whereas with age, women will be more concerned with long-term potential and men more concerned with getting what they want without overinvesting.

*Take a load off, Fanny. Take a load for free.

MANAGING RISK – YOU CAN’T TRANSFER ALL THE RISK TO THE OTHER PARTY

I want to combine a couple of threads here. Another factor we need to be serious about is risk management. Here we’re debating whether waiting more than three dates exposes a guy to undue risk that his girl is not hot for him, is banging someone else, is fleecing him for resources, the sex sucks, etc. Some guys are saying they want the woman to fully absorb the risk that he might vanish after the bang, or stall at FWB.

On another thread we’re debating how long SayWhaat should wait before putting out, and how much “commitment” (I always put the term in “‘s because relationship commitment is really just a revocable promise of monogamy in the moment) she is justified asking before having sex. I have noted that I think it’s a bit much to ask young-20-something men to go all the way up to “we’re in a committed relationship” before sex – the general SMP (meaning the guys she’s dating and the women she’s competing with) is more risk-tolerant than that, meaning she is an unusually strong bidder.

Neither side is 100% in the right – you can’t ask the other side to give you everything you want without giving them something they want. Unless a man is playing entirely in the casual-sex market, he can’t demand a woman put out so early that he hasn’t put much “commitment” investment into things. How is a guy to know she hasn’t made other men to “wait?” That’s sort of unanswerable, if the guy is skittish and thinks he can get another prospect tomorrow, he’s in a good place to say “I’m not waiting, goodbye,” but be prepared for her to call the bluff.

Likewise, unless a woman is going to be celibate until marriage, she can only demand so much investment and commitment before sex. As much as we suborn it here, sex before marriage, even in relationships, is to some degree or another uncommitted sex. And we can argue whether marriage is really commitment because of no fault divorce laws. It’s just all part of the risk of a system where we (a) choose our own partners, and (b) don’t date exclusively for marriage.

There is no risk-free option that will guarantee your desired results. Weird shit happens. Jennifer Kay married Athol. Two years later he came out as an atheist (at risk to him of getting deported if she left him), then tried to talk her into swinging (unsuccessfully, according to a post he wrote). He writes an open blog about their sex life. The marriage has survived, neither of them regret getting hitched.

Most of your relationships will fail. Ideally, one will work and you stick with that one for the rest of your life. But failures don’t mean that they were a waste of time. Susan and I are on the same team in that young people should have these progessively more serious relationships as life goes from high school to college to adult life, so they have skills to deal with it when the chips are really down.

Well that is part of the whole mission of this blog you know? Give back status to being a good wife that cares for her family but that doesn’t start at the altar it starts with the type of men you date and how you date them.

Hey, I am right there with you. But, I still quibble with that initial statement. The guy may get a great reward, but, considering the current culture and evidence, many a guy will be hesitant about marriage. And for good reason.

People should remember that while Jhane Sez set herself the standard of waiting at least three months before having sex with a guy who she felt would commit to her and whom she felt she was falling in love with, she actually waited 8 weeks before doing that with the guy she’s been with for 10 years now.

That doesn’t strike me as wholly undoable in the SMP when looking for a husband, or looking for a LTR boyfriend in college or professional school say, if lesser sexual affection like first and second base is done before then.  Make it six weeks and commitment and it seems wholly doable.

@Ceer,

Just today I saw a girl who was happy to receive flowers.  She spent the better part of an hour wondering who they came from, with expectation.  When he came by, she noticed they were from someone who didn’t tingle her vagina, and blew him off.

What a bitch. I hate hearing about girls like this, they make the rest of us look terrible and shallow.

I spent the morning reading old FB messages my boyfriend sent me. He wrote me a realllllly long one right after we met. I thought it was the cutest thing ever, not to mention brave; I now know he went outside of his comfort zone because he really liked me. But most girls would’ve been like “OMG he’s stalking me and we don’t even know each other!!!!” Ugh.

Sorry your story pissed me off so I had to rant for a moment.

Olive,

The thing is, my advice is geared towards men and women in THIS SMP. Men who lack experience often wake up bitterly to the fact that their women have fucked around (or been fucked over by or been duped by or whatever) a bit with jerks. The bitterness stems from the fact that they’ve spent their lives living up to an image of what they think good girls want. Most guys want to fuck as much as the next, but they’re taught that girls don’t like jerks, being a jerk won’t get you girls, etc…

So you get men like the ones you find here who either a. continue being nice and feel like chumps, or b. resent the shit out of women and work to become players, “go their own way”, or c. continue to have relationships with women they don’t respect.

I see two ways out of this: for women to stop being sluts for jerks when they’re young, or for guys to start learning to game the girls who are willing to be slutty for them.

If the men learn to get in the game early, there’s going to be less resentment for their women when they find out they’ve sucked dick for some random guy, made out with a ton of guys that didn’t give a flying fuck about them, or fucked a douche bag in hopes of winning him over.

And I say this based on my own experience. Prior to “getting in the game” I literally hated women for having been left out for so long. I bore an ill-will towards just about all women. Having the opportunity to go out and have my share of fun gave me some much needed perspective. I don’t have any of that resentment anymore.

the way I heard some dudes talk about sex in college, they can’t get through a week without banging some chick.

You were obviously chilling with the dudes who had that option.

@ Jesus,

Definitely makes sense. I personally think girls should stop being idiots about their strategies (me included, but alas, I didn’t know anything about any of this 3 years ago when I went through my idiot stage). Of course that’s just because, during my idiot stage, I came to realize I’m not really attracted to alphas at all. They just happened to be the ones who approached me. Damn why did I NOT find this blog until now lol.

#348 - And others are referring to that doubt as “bitterness”.

Or in laymans terms: shaming.

@Valentin

#350

I agree with the synonym.

@Passerby,

Also, I’m not really admonishing women to wait.  Just pick guys who aren’t douches.

It’s hard to tell who’s a douche and who’s not if they all push for early sex. I say that because once I almost dated a guy who seemed genuine, but he rejected me once he discovered I was a virgin and wouldn’t have sex with him immediately. Right away I threw him in the douche pile. I have no idea whether we would’ve dated if I did have sex with him, but the fact that he didn’t respect my desire to wait made him a douche, at least in my mind. My point, I guess, is that douche is a relative term. And it’s kinda hard to tell who’s a douche if guys all start acting like douches to get some in the current SMP.

Having said that, I have some girlfriends who definitely dumped adorably sweet guys to date douches. So, I understand why you’re admonishing women to pick guys who are less douchey.

Lurker1983 (a former Anonymous)

I am still trying to hold on to this level of Idealism. However reality is somewhat different. And as my best friend always says,

“Reality is more important than you think it is, cos when it sinks in it will sink you”.

Look, Jhane is going to be fine. Our whole culture is one big fucking safe space to validate her and her decisions. I have (yes, icky religious, but effective) ways to get beyond judgement in my personal life to build relationships with people like myself who have made big mistakes in our pasts. Mercy works, but not without judgement.

My passion here comes from a different place. I want to make sure that this great new generation of young men and women that my colleagues and I are busting our asses to prepare to meet that great wide world out there don’t end up getting Charlotte Simmonized. I don’t want them getting rag dolled in the first place. I don’t want them not having a father because mom hooked up with a guy who wanted to be a father and not a husband.

Unless we have the courage to say that is wrong instead of sweeping it under the rug so we can all feel good, that’s where we’re heading. Well, that is where we are, but I’ll be damned if we’re feeding another generation into the maw of that particular hell.

@StudentGuy

#379

No you didn’t offend me. However you also didn’t respond to the question, even though I have already answer my end of it. Did your high school or college days were sexless?

Deti and lovelost,

I already had responded earlier explaining my reasons on waiting, but I take it you’re asking how does a man tell when a girl that’s waiting isn’t playing him or stringing him along? 

I can only speak for myself, but all what I can think of is that I was kind and appreciative on dates. Some women forget to show gratitude for the man’s kind actions.    I showed him with my actions and words that I really liked him . I told him he was thoughtful, I held his hand, kissed him, hugged him, told him how great it was to see him, and consistently kept in contact with him.  Since he stuck around and waited, I’m assuming he knew that I liked him and saw him as a potential boyfriend.  You don’t have to use sex to show that you like a man. 
We dated for a little more than a year and were sure that we were the perfect fit.  Towards the end of our dating period, we realized we weren’t as compatible. I can look back and say it was the most meaningful and easiest relationship I’ve been in.  

@Valentin,

And so game is born to use women for some damn fun.

  Some of us appreciate guys who are genuine but haven’t learned Game. We’re just hiding behind goofy-looking glasses or shyness or whatever.

Also, this next part isn’t aimed at Valentin, just a random thought I had. I strongly believe that some of this alpha-beta stuff is related to looks. I don’t see it discussed a whole lot (not to say it hasn’t been mentioned), but I think it deserves a post. Girls are obsessed with “hot” guys. They hang posters of hot celebrities on the walls of their rooms, they talk incessantly about hot guys in their classes–hell, I have friends who named a dude “Hot Guy.” So, if a not-so-hot guy approaches them, they reject him without a thought. I’ve seen this happen at frat parties. A “hot guy” will approach a friend and she starts dancing with him immediately. If a “not-hot guy” approaches the same friend in the same manner, he’s a creeper and she runs away and talks to her friends about how creepy he is. It’s honestly how a lot of girls operate. And of course, not all guys are hot, so they don’t get any attention from these girls. In this analysis, the “hot guys” know they can have tons of girls, so they are confident they won’t be rejected… i.e. they’re alphas.

Here’s my suspicion: it’s the same for girls. “Hot girls” are in demand, “not-hot” girls are not. Most of my friends in college were moderately hot, so they went for the hot guys and could usually get ONSs with them, if nothing more. Meanwhile, I do know a fair amount of girls who aren’t hot and have never had hookups OR boyfriends. They’d probably be great girlfriends, but they’re a little too chubby, or too plain, or not girly enough (usually a combo). It’s sad in the same way that MGTOW is sad. I know looks are important, but I wish people of all SMP values would give the “not-hot” people a chance. I’ve had two lovely relationships with guys who got zero attention from girls before they met me, because they were too chubby, or too nerdy, or too socially awkward (again, usually a combo). In a genuine relationship, you are attracted to the person regardless of their public SMP value, because you love them and you’ve been intimate with them. There are always people in the corner, guys and girls both, who are totally invisible to relationship-minded people, and I bet they’d make fantastic SOs. Actually, based on my experience, they have, and this is advice I’ve given to my friends who couldn’t find BFs.

OK my spiel is finished.

@Susan,

Such a development would be a major game changer, because women are the gatekeepers. However, it’s unlikely, at least in the short-term. We need to start byappealing to women with a sound strategy for getting more than sex. As individuals make the change, one by one, slowly a critical mass will develop. But my guess is that the tipping point is going to be some external event or development.

This is why I wish the world read your blog LOL. A lot of control is given to women here, which is fascinating, because to hear women talk, you’d think it was the other way around. The way I understand it, the alpha blogs have developed in response to the way women act in hookup culture. The only problem, I think, is that alpha blogs and HUS are taking the sexes in opposite directions. Alpha blogs are encouraging men to adjust to the current SMP, while HUS is encouraging women to change the SMP. I understand the reasoning behind both logics, but I guess I have trouble getting past the notion that the end goals are very different for these strategies.

So if Jesus had his way and guys were encouraged to approach, you might have understood your attraction triggers better and had better experiences.

Fair enough. To be honest, my ultimate strategy was to approach a shy guy. Until I understood that the guys I liked weren’t going to approach me, I was screwed.

And finally,

UMC white America is the last holdout of those traditions, and the marriage rate is declining there too.

Yeah, bad news on that front. Most of the students at my college were UMC whites, and they were probably some of the most frequent participants of hookup culture.

Susan,

“Whether you think there’s a problem with JS’s choices or not, you have no right to call her a prostitute”

What in the world are you talking about?

Nobody called anyone a prostitute.

Again, here’s the problem:

Single men are already surrounded by single moms who have miraculously figured out the time-honored truths that mysteriously elude their non-mom sisters, who continue to pull the wool over the eyes of their elders like Susan who would otherwise be setting them straight. Jhane’s story is nothing new for us, its the modus operandi of a greater part of our SMP. What it isn’t, and it isn’t close, is fair*.

Not fair to men, not fair ultimately to the women themselves, and most importantly not fair to the children they bring into the world without any hope of the nuclear family that raised you and you so blithely take for granted.

There is a gender and generational divide between us that I’ve noted before, but I think the most profound one is that I have step-parents. I know the difference it makes. It will ultimately be children of divorce (and now anything goes single parenting) as parents who fix this SMP. The unicorns and rainbows brigade isn’t up to it.

* – females exercising their base (base as in selfish – if everyone exercised them, civilization would not survive; as well as in basic/primitive/stone age) instincts. The increasingly widespread phenomena of males attempting to exercise theirs is a reaction to it. The latter will only stop with the former.

@Passer_by

I don’t know how you get the number 650, but you’re making assumption about the cost of the dates and the frequency of the dates with one person in particular. Also I don’t think you are on the same page, because some of the things Jhane classifies as “dates” (having coffee, going to trade shows) others would not.

It’s fair to say that the modern 20 something considers a date something that is more of an event, for which there is often preparation, dressing up and expense.

But to your other point, this type of strategy is really only for women who are looking for a LTR or marriage and plenty of women are not. It doesn’t mean guys looking for something else are out of luck, it just changes who their luck is with.

or men will stop asking women on dates unless (i) they get really strong indicators that she’s anxious and/or (ii) they only target women with whom they see themselves having an LTR

You know, after reading a lot, especially on HUS, I’m just going to say that a lot of paranoia comes down to maturity. I notice that with some of the more mature and secure male posters, they aren’t as hyper sensitive to how they “appear” or what others may think of them, they do what they do.

Also, I took from her story that, while many wanted quick sex, a lot of other guys were willing to wait but she ultimately rejected them after several dates before they reached the finish line.  Correct me if I’m wrong.

So a guy is willing to wait for sex. After a while, she finds out something about him that would make having sex with him a bad choice (and has mentioned several things including him being married or in a relationship with someone else). So she doesn’t have sex with him (and keeping it real, most of these guys were likely NOT celibate), and somehow that’s a bad thing?

Some of you act like you’re entitled to the use of someone else’s body and just trying to figure out the path of least resistance, and least embarrassment, to get it.

You folks are driving me nuts with all the war metaphors.

I’m afraid I’ll start posting thousands of words about how the application of combined arms, a workable COIN strategy, superior logistics, and combat multipliers leading to all-weather localized and general fire superiority enabled me to get some girl’s phone number while still adhering to ROE.  After that, I simply need to exploit the gaps between 3GW and 4GW to accellerate my OODA loop past hers.  Last step is to and deconflict those pesky purple kill-boxes with the fast movers and get a PACE comm plan with adjacent units – I’ll be banging her FEBA in no time.

That’s the Commander’s Intent, anyway.

Holy shit I’m grumpy.

Sorry ’bout that.

@Mike the Experimenter:

I have done everything you suggested regarding the altered dating strategy.  I wish I’d documented things, but I’ve already been there and got the t-shirt.

Many moons ago, I had only a half-assed understanding of How Things Work (I have a three-quarters assed understanding now).  I’d figured out and gotten good at attracting women, my career was getting going, and I was in decent physical/mental shape.

I’m wired to be monogamous, I don’t/can’t engage in casual sex, and I’m one of those grotesque and improbable perverts that’s actually happier in a monogamous relationship than with a harem.

Since that’s what many women state they’re looking for, I attempted to highlight those qualities.

WWWWRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG.

AAAAAANNNNNNSSSSSSWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR.

That strategy is nearly as practical and effective as vomiting in a space suit.

When I’m single and looking, I have much better results concealing those “virtues”, especially in the beginning of a relationship.

It’ not specious because using haaapiiiness as a measure of success is a feature of our current culture. “I’m unhappy because I’m; (single/married, hate my job because they expect me to work, too pretty/too fat,  popular/unpopular, can’t get laid/everyone wants to use me for sex, on and on and on). We rely too heavily on feelings and it’s part of why we are where we are.

Anonymous, the question was not how happy they were in life, but how happy they were with there marriages.

Ramble:” Anonymous, the question was not how happy they were in life, but how happy they were with there marriages.”

There was a study where like 55% of divorces are from good enough marriages. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of those people got married because they thought it would make them happy then they divorce chasing the same.

My point is that it’s trendy to complain about everything and anything. “Grass is greener” syndrome and victimhood is rampant.  It’d be great if people would learn to stop complaining and do everything in their power to be content with wherever they are in life. I’m not trying to undermine people’s suffering but there are places in the world where people are faced with horrific challenges on a daily basis and yet they smile and have a good outlook on life.

 

 

Someguy–

I know you specifically said you weren’t looking for advice, but I’ll ofter some observations anyway.

I think you’re on a pretty good track towards a relationship and not to be LJBFed by you Italian girl.  Her playfully hitting you on the shoulder when you tease her is a pretty strong indication of interest.   As is her gravitating to you in large groups, and contacting you most days.  Her not melting into you when you hug I would take given these other things as mostly an indication of her wanting to take things slowly sexually speaking.

The one thing that sets a bit of a red flag off for me is your saying you’re prepared to follow her head in taking things slowly.  That may just be chose of phrase or terminology, but following a girl’s lead tends to not be good for sexually interesting by far most girls, whatever they may say or think in their forebrains.  You should be push pulling to get things going a little faster sexually even though I get that you want a relationship rather than a fling.  You can be willing to wait but you should be trying at least some to escalate if you don’t want this to have a big risk of going ljbf.  Teasing kisses then hot making out.  Kiss her necks.  Bite it a little.  Massage her.  And so on.

Escoffier–

<blockquote>My wife was a STEM and a gigantic nerd.  She went to the world’s nerdiest school and has a huge telescope with a motorized tracking thing that allows it to follow the earth’s rotation.</blockquote>

That would be either MIT or Cal Tech.  Though there are probably Unis in China that are competitive on that score.  Heh.

@ Jhane Sez November 9, 2011 at 12:20 am

I asked him tonight what he thought about being called a beta… his reply… who even thinks like that.

LOL!  The first time I saw the concentration on the alpha/beta aspects was when I started reading the manosphere.  The theory has its uses.  However, some of the “alphabetaologists” just get carried away.

Regarding the stereotypes of black women, that can certainly become burdensome at times.  However, I realize that some individuals like to exhibit lazy thinking and fall back on those stereotypes.  Fortunately, I tend not to let people rent space in my head.

At any rate, I really appreciate the value you’ve added to the site and I hope you keep posting.

@ Susan,

This was a very good idea to highlight Jhane’s post!  Thanks.

lovelost November 9, 2011 at 9:55 am

@HUS

I’m again asking the question.

Would women support a single dad having a child from previous marriage? Will you women out there support a  guy raise the kid?

let’s hear it from the ladies at HUS.

I would.  For a variety of reasons, I do not operate under the assumption that  single parents are not relationship material.  If I were to meet a single father and we were compatible, I would focus on being part of his life.  That certainly includes helping him raise his child/children from a previous relationship.