What Men Need From Women (No, Not Sex)

November 9, 2011

I’m officially calling a truce, or at least a time out, in the Battle of the Sexes.

Today in the Comments, Valentin made a recommendation that is a variation on something a lot of men have shared here. 

Listen women: if there’s one thing you’d like it’s a man that’s romantic and passionate. In other words a confident guy that really goes for you and shows it. Here’s a shocker: we like the exact same from women.

Of course, it shouldn’t be a shocker, but it kinda is. Why wouldn’t guys like to be desired, appreciated, and courted? We ask so much of men – pursue me, risk my rejection, prove your long-term interest. In our minds, we think we can offer sex in return – the timeless exchange of sex for resources – and our job is done. 

The Last Psychiatrist in his rebuke to Lori Gottlieb’s book about settling, said:

You want something uplifting, so here you go: you can never have a good relationship with anyone when your focus is the relationship.  There’s a human being there who existed well before you got to them, and they weren’t built for you or your needs or your parents or your future dreams as an actor.  If you want to be happy with someone then your body and mind have to instinctively adapt to their happiness.  If you’re not ready for this kind of sacrifice, then you’re simply not ready.

Wait a minute, you mean this doesn’t have to be trench warfare? Why do we like someone? Is it so that we can get something, or give something? Most of the women I know who really want a relationship talk about sharing intimacy, giving it and having it be well received. They want to find a man who will let them love him. They feel certain that if a guy would give them a chance, they could prove that they’d be a wonderful girlfriend.

How come guys are not getting that message? Is it because women are not successfully communicating it?

1. In today’s SMP a woman who “really goes for you and shows it” is 9 times out of 10 a woman who will be going home with you at the end of the night. Women understand, rightly or wrongly, that aggressive communication of desire is the most important female behavior in the hookup toolkit, and therefore reserved for the promiscuous girl.

A woman’s direct confession that she thinks a man is hot is likely to get her pushed up against the back wall for some serious making out, at the very least. I believe this has led women who wish to avoid this kind of misunderstanding to become rather reticent about expressing attraction, for fear of initiating an escalation they don’t want.

2. Because women erroneously perceive that all guys would prefer a hookup to a relationship, they carefully avoid any behavior that might telegraph a tendency for them to become a Stage 5 Clinger. They play it cool to save face, and maximize their appeal.

3. Because many of the girls who get a lot of male attention are not the BFF collaborative type – in other words, they’re bitches – women believe that men want women who play hard to get. We know however, that men want women who are hard to get for everyone else, but not for them.

4. Women have not transitioned to gender equity in dating. They are loathe to relinquish a system in which the male takes all, or at least most of, the risk.

What are some of the most effective ways that you can express a romantic and passionate interest in a man?

1. Let him know that you find him sexually desirable.

Jesus Mahoney addressed this brilliantly in a recent conversation with a woman about how to communicate what she wants in a man:

Strong and intelligent are good qualities, but I think above all, men want the women they’re with to be sexually attracted to them. So, if you feel like intelligence makes a man sexually desirable, then great. Show him. If you feel like intelligence makes a man’s company simply “interesting” or something, then you can bet he is not going to feel secure in the relationship. Friendship is a great part of a relationship, but if you’re not tingling for him, then the man is going to know it and be unhappy.

…Generally women are sexually attracted to men of achievement and action…[Men] don’t want to be chosen because you feel like they’re good, decent people. Even the good, decent men don’t want that. They want you to want them because they’re sexually exciting.

Byron also shared a key insight into male psychology and sexuality:

 I was once asked what was the most important thing I looked for in a relationship & I said ‘bottomless desire’…

Many men’s deepest need is to feel desired to the extent that they feel desire for the woman they fall in love with. Because men, as a rule, feel sexual desire much more acutely than women, their experience of that need being met is very rare.

Men don’t fantasize about a handsome prince & a big wedding & a high-status steadfast provider for their children. But they do dream about a woman they will burn with in mutual desire for all eternity.

2. Provide real, nurturing affection and physical contact.

Athol Kay during his Girl Game series, wrote Touch is Love:

Most men are never routinely touched by anyone other than during handshakes, doctor visits or getting punched – playfully or otherwise. Even hugs from your mom tend to vanish at some point midway through childhood.

The other way men get physically touched is through sex. Half the reason men automatically think that getting touched by a woman is a direct line to the bedroom, is that all too often that’s the only time they get physically touched. A decent part of the reason men want sex is simply to get physically touched. 

When a girl flirting with you does that playful slapping thing on your arm or shoulder, it’s powerful, almost electric sensation for most men. Instant attention getter; for a lonely guy it’s pure Kryptonite.

So touch him. Do the arm slap thing. Rub his back a little. Cuddle. Kiss. Do whatever incidental touch you can.

3. Understand that men prize loyalty and faithfulness.

David Buss wrote about fidelity in The Evolution of Desire:

For American men, faithfulness and sexual loyalty are the most important of 67 desirability traits.

“Men worldwide want physically attractive, young, and sexually loyal wives who will remain faithful to them until death.”  

These preferences are universal across all cultures and absent in none.  

Reader Acksiom, channeling our recent lively discussions here, suggested that men seek sexual intimacy sooner rather than later as proof of devotion. This dovetails with men saying that they often feel the need to press for early sex to test a woman’s real level of attraction and interest. His comment is interesting food for thought.

What do men really want? Devotion. Therefore, if women want a man to continue to consider them as a potential mate without displaying their devotion to him through sexual intimacy, they will have to keep his interest by displaying their devotion to him through other behaviors.

In short, if you can’t keep men interested in being around you without being sexually intimate with them, the problem is not with the men.

Finally, Mike recently offered some advice to a female reader about handling a boyfriend’s potential discomfort with her sexual history. 

My advice is, if he’s not making a big deal of it, you should avoid the topic entirely.  Raising it repeatedly or reminding him may cause it to turn into a big deal, or create insecurity in him.

The best way to avoid that is to show him he is your sex god, and if he isn’t yet, guide him subtly but enthusiastically until he is.

4. Communicate that you appreciate, admire and respect him.

The Rawness wrote this in his post about how to be the perfect woman:

Even the men who appear the strongest secretly have a fragile ego. One of the biggest secrets men have is how delicate our egos are. If you publicly build up your man’s ego, whether in front of his friends, family or even total strangers, he will think you’re the most wonderful woman in the world. Yet feminism and the media has given woman some strange mental block about this, as if doing so is some admission of weakness on their part. 

Don’t expect guys to do all the work. Put yourself out there. Think about giving instead of taking. 

Girls, you’ve got four strategic moves here you can implement immediately. Calibrate the timing and intensity to suit your level of acquaintance. 

I’m not floating some hypothetical strategy here for you to strike out with. This is straight from the guys. If a guy likes you, he will respond to these efforts.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Fenix

    Susan,

    A lot of your advice (including this one) is useful for the relationship stage of the SMP. But, a lot of the inefficiencies occur before the relationship stage. I just don’t see how this advice is applicable for establishing the relationship.

    For guys, the SMP is too tilted against traditional dating. It’s much, much easier to get a relationship if we’ve hooked up with the girl than if were to date and “get to know each other”.

    The traditional dating system requires guys to take all the risk and bear all the uncertainty. For example,

    • Get her number (10%)
    • Get a date with her (30%)
    • Get a second date with her (50%)
    • Get a third date with her… (40%)
    The percentages in the brackets are roughly how successful I am at passing each gauntlet.
    It’s just annoying how  I might’ve achieved great rapport with the girl but end up getting dumped after the third date for completely unknown reasons.
    Dating worked in the past because women were less choosy. Men know that if one’s hard-working, American (as in values), loyal, and overall a “nice guy” then he’ll get a wife. Girls are so picky these days that it almost seems like a lottery to successfully transform dates into relationships. You have these girls who go on 3-4 dates with different people per week. So, I guess every week at least 2-3 guys get dumped? That seems to be very unfair and unfavourable to guys.
    However, with hooking-up, I can know in one night whether or not I’ll be in a relationship with her. If we had great sex then I’m in control. If I want a relationship, I give her a call otherwise I just ignore her.
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Fenix
      Haha, you changed your spelling and saved yourself two keystrokes.

      I hear exactly what you are saying, believe me. However, this post is definitely applicable before a relationship is officially established. I see it as one of the ways that women can indicate strong interest and attraction. None of these strategies make sense at first meeting, but they might prove very useful in that in-between stage before sex, whenever that happens. In addition, even after a couple becomes sexual, I think that women need to understand what men need. We’ve really lost sight of that. Women today were raised to discount male needs and tend to their own. That’s not a recipe for happiness for either sex. Of course, women can and do ignore this kind of advice, and some will have happy relationships I suppose. But I think in general they can make their men much happier by doing these things. I know for certain that this makes a difference in my own marriage. In fact, I know my husband so well that I can tell exactly when a certain kind of encouragement or reinforcement is needed, and I make a point of offering it. Often I can see an immediate positive effect in his mood or outlook.

  • LS

    Dennis Prager:

    Men want to be admired.
    Women want a man they can admire.

    Women want to be cherished.
    Men want a woman they can cherish and protect and make her feel safe.

    Integrity and strength.
    Strength without integrity is machismo.
    Integrity without strength is a nice milquetoast.

    Men can be deceived by beauty.
    Women can be deceived by strength.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LS
      Wise words from DP, thanks for sharing that.

  • lovelost

    @HUS,

    I guess now we are directing our energies towards solutions, rather than highlighting the problem.

    I will be honest here, the last post was quite taxing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I guess now we are directing our energies towards solutions, rather than highlighting the problem.

      I think we all deserve a change of pace.

      I will be honest here, the last post was quite taxing.

      That’s why I’m on my second glass of Oyster Bay.

  • Jonny

    @Fenix,  I think traditional dating is the correct approach for a woman who wants a longer term relationship. The problem is women haven’t adapted to the new environment and it is up to men to redefine what it means for dating.

    Men should not be taking all the risks. If he is, he won’t be attracting her anyways. I think men should spend as little money as possible in the initial few dates.

    The gaunlet that you’re experiencing won’t go away. What do you expect? Dating is designed to screen you out like a job interview. On the other hand, hooking up isn’t so easy for the men who aren’t players. It is still a numbers game, which offers instant gratification if you succeed. If you have success, the LTR might still not happen. How would you know if she will take your call after hooking up?

  • Nummm

    The thing is, the average guy is so starved for attention and affection, that a girl doesn’t have to do half those things to keep him around. This will be useful for the girls with guys that aren’t betas mostly. Fenix makes some good points, the process of getting to a relationship tends to be way more painful.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Nummm

      Perhaps a beta guy doesn’t require all this attention, but wouldn’t he like to have it? Why not encourage women to be as giving as possible, rather than to give to each according to his need? Now that I think about it, I’d say beta guys need this kind of attention more than the lucky few. A player would indeed avoid the woman who might turn into a Stage 5 Clinger. Women need to select men who respond well to this kind of attention, so if she gives it and he is repelled – well then, you have your answer. These strategies are for people who want to give love, and to have it be reciprocated in a confident and healthy way.

  • GudEnuf

    This is actually very good advice. All of it.

    I remember the most erotic`thing a woman has every said to me: “GudEnuf, I know that now is not the right time. But when the time comes, I can’t wait to get pregnant with you.”

    Looking back, I can see this compliment touches on #1 (she wants to have sex with me), #3 (she plans to be faithful) and #4 (she thinks I would make a good father).  If you can find a way to incorporate #2 you would have the perfect dirty talk.

  • ozymandias

    Men and women not actually that different from each other, news at eleven.

  • Sock!

    As I read this post I’m struck by the sense that every major long term relationship (those that lasted over 3 years) I had multiple elements in common reflected in this post!  A woman who were to command these elements with a sense of real agency, would fair vastly better than her sisters out there in the SMP.  I for one would be seeing this measure of behavior as a massive differentiator.  It would be hard not to notice and respond in kind…

  • Anonymous

    Amaing advice.

    Especially the touching thing. Never realised how tough it was until my current LTR went LDR which is now almost over.

    One problem, the advice from Mike.

    Tell him straight up. Either a) you don’t and he finds out later. Stressful end of relationship scenario ensues. b) you tell and he takes off, c) you tell and he doesn’t care.

    Of course there is the option of don’t tell and he never finds out. At which point your probably not going to tell him the kid isn’t his either…

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous
      Sorry for the confusion on that Mike comment – the guy in question does know all the facts, and he says he isn’t bothered. There are no children involved. Mike was just suggesting that indulging in a bit of penis worship was a good strategy, and I agree :-)

  • Zach

    Totally agree with this post, especially the showing affection part.  One of the big reasons guys push for sex early on in dating is that there is often no other way we can gauge a girl’s real interest.  Men aren’t as bad as you girls think about gauging a girl’s signals, but for all of us sex/physical intimacy is hit-me-on-the-head-with-a-bat obvious, so that’s how we test it.  It’s our version of the girl “testing” by conversation/shit tests/etc.

    I go on a lot of dates (and also hu with random girls and have occasional ONS) looking for a potential GF.  Many times I’ll have 2-3 dates with a girl and then there will be nothing.  There will be no further dates, and there will have been no physical intimacy.  At that point, how am I supposed to know whether or not I’ve just been P&D’ed (not for sex, for free dinners/drinks)?  The girl I’m currently seeing does something very different which honestly makes a HUGE difference.  After each time she accepts an invitation for a date, she follows up by asking about something in my life.  For instance, I told her on date number 2 that a friend of mine was coming into town for the weekend.  After accepting date 3, she immediately inquired as to how his visit had been and what we’d done.  Something like that shows me that she’s actually paying attention to me, and that she is interested in me beyond just our dates.  It makes all the difference in the world, and frankly makes me far more willing to hold off on sex if that’s what she wants.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      After accepting date 3, she immediately inquired as to how his visit had been and what we’d done. Something like that shows me that she’s actually paying attention to me, and that she is interested in me beyond just our dates. It makes all the difference in the world, and frankly makes me far more willing to hold off on sex if that’s what she wants.

      I find it tragic that you should find this unusual behavior among the women you date. I call this good manners. I’m glad you mentioned it – making a point of remembering what is happening in a guy’s life and following up is a concrete way of expressing interest in him as a person.

  • Fenix

    At that point, how am I supposed to know whether or not I’ve just been P&D’ed (not for sex, for free dinners/drinks)?

    Most likely it’s just for an ego-boost or backup (she’s dating someone she likes more but might not like her)….

  • Zach

    @Fenix

    Honestly, I can’t blame them too much for that. I’m often seeing a few girls at once so I can keep my options open, and often I end it after 2-3 dates. However, I still take these girls out and am friendly with them, whereas I’m not getting sex from the girls who are doing the same with me.

  • http://gravatar.com/weezul Chris

    Some great stuff here.

    I hate to inject any sort of negativity, but I feel compelled to add a note regarding Byron’s quoted commentary:

    “Many men’s deepest need is to feel desired to the extent that they feel desire for the woman they fall in love with.”

    I have never, in any of the relationships I’ve had, felt desired.

    Oh, I know at least one woman desired me while we dated.  But I knew that because her sister told me.  I never heard it from HER, or even got that impression from her body language.

    I don’t even know what being desired feels like.

    I was willing to take on most of the risk in dating.  But that was motivated by my “traditional dating” mindset, which was a recipe for failure (and in that respect, yielded incredibly consistent results).

    Eventually, after you’ve dug through the pile for a while and found nothing but coal…you throw the shovel down and walk away.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris
      No wonder you walked away. What a crime that you had to find out from someone else that your gf desired you.

      I have never, in any of the relationships I’ve had, felt desired.

      Is this common? That a woman is in a relationship yet expresses no desire? Chris, were these women repressed in some way, religiously or culturally? If anything, we’ve got a problem in this SMP where women are expressing desire too readily, just not to the best men.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Love this post, Susan. Great advice!

    @Zach: don’t want to be pumped and dumped for free food/drinks? What about a girl not asking for free stuff?

    I didn’t go on “dates” in the traditional sense while I was looking. I talked to guys, one-on-one, to find out more about them. I didn’t have dinner, I didn’t get taken to movies, and I didn’t make them spend any money on me.

    Dates are expensive, they’re awkward, I don’t like them, but I loved private conversations and to get to know guys. Without the formality of dating, guys couldn’t really apply the rules of dating to me either.

  • 108spirits

    “I’m officially calling a truce, or at least a time out, in the Battle of the Sexes.”

    Too bad. Chicks dig fights.

    Physical affection is what a Western upbringing typically deprives of men, and women are very reluctant to show it. Men can’t ask for it because they’d appear desperate, and as they say, the hungry don’t get fed.

     

     

  • SayWhaat

    Physical affection is what a Western upbringing typically deprives of men

    Physical affection is suppressed in Eastern cultures as well. What are you getting at?

  • Olive

    @Susan,

    Really awesome advice, great post!

    @Anonymous,

    Tell him straight up. Either a) you don’t and he finds out later. Stressful end of relationship scenario ensues. b) you tell and he takes off, c) you tell and he doesn’t care.

    Of course there is the option of don’t tell and he never finds out. At which point your probably not going to tell him the kid isn’t his either…

    If I remember correctly, Mike’s advice was directed at me. I already did tell my BF straight up. The discussion was about whether he secretly still resents my past experiences, having already found out about them. I liked Mike’s advice because it contained something I could actually do in the situation. It wasn’t just “Well your boyfriend probably feels horrible about your past. Ya shouldn’t have messed around, but oops, too late.”

  • El Marqués

    Pretty good advice, and reflecting the interests of poth parties, well done.

    Only with this part here do I have a slight problem:

    4. Communicate that you appreciate, admire and respect him.

    These things are very important, yes, but not for the ridiculous reasons given:

    Even the men who appear the strongest secretly have a fragile ego. One of the biggest secrets men have is how delicate our egos are. If you publicly build up your man’s ego, whether in front of his friends, family or even total strangers, he will think you’re the most wonderful woman in the world. 

    The myth of the fragile male ego is still lingering on the battlefield like an old Russian T-34 tank. It’s true that male egos are fragile during the years of puberty, but after that the fragile-ego-battalion is made up excusively by women and gay men.

  • Lurker1983 (a former Anonymous)

    I agree that sex isn’t what men need the most, even though both men and women like sex.  What they need is appreciation, respect and trust. Some of us women forget to give them that.  When we talk about a man pursuing and courting a woman, it’s not about the woman being completely aloof and cold. The women can reciprocate in numerous ways.

  • lovelost

    @Susan

    And I want my Johnny Walker Black Label. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost
      You are funny – I am getting to know you bit by bit.

  • Esau

    “Men and women not actually that different from each other, news at eleven.”

    But, the lame-stream media will still hide the truth from us!

  • Hope

    “I see it as one of the ways that women can indicate strong interest and attraction. None of these strategies make sense at first meeting, but they might prove very useful in that in-between stage before sex, whenever that happens.”

    I agree Susan. I did 1, 3, and 4 during that “in-between stage” with my husband, and 2 after we got physical (though I wasn’t being consciously strategic about it). He loved how much I admired and desired him, and that I told him so.

    “Physical affection is suppressed in Eastern cultures as well.”

    True that SayWhaat. My mother-in-law is all about hugs, but my own mother? She’s probably the least verbally and physically demonstrative woman I know. I’m glad I didn’t get her attitude toward being affectionate.

  • http://gravatar.com/weezul Chris

    @Susan

    I could not say with any certainty if they felt repressed.  My guess is no, since two of them cheated on me.  One before dumping me, one right after (as in, the same night).

    Now, I’m well aware that I’m no alpha hunk or anything.  But the only time a woman ever expressed physical desire, was when she tried to steal me away from my girlfriend at the time (whom, I’m sad to say, I never slept with).

    And she didn’t do that because it was me.  She did it because she hated my girlfriend.

    Sort of ruins any potential for me to feel desired, don’t you think?

    So, yes, I think it’s pretty common for women to totally skip expressing desire for men they’re in relationships with.  Maybe it’s just that “beta paycheck” thing, or maybe they can’t stand the thought of building up a man (perhaps they think doing so diminishes them in some nebulous way).

    At this point it’s pretty academic.  Going on dates feels like job interviews.  I haven’t been on one in over a year now.  Feels a lot better.

  • 108spirits

    Eastern cultures have their fuckups but we aren’t living in Eastern cultures.

  • Ted D

    THIS! All of this post is dead on Susan. I can’t find a single thing to disagree with, and in fact I found myself saying YES more than once while reading it.

    I am well aware of the fact that I am an odd bird. But this resonated with me strongly. I can guess that it would be the same for any guy that has similar ideals. If any of the women reading here have ever wondered what a guy like me is looking for, this is it.

  • Odds

    “I have never, in any of the relationships I’ve had, felt desired.”

    I have, but it is pretty rare.  There was my first girlfriend, for a brief period of time (a couple of weeks) between when she finally started getting comfortable with sex and when she began to have serious emotional issues over a family tragedy.  There was another girl I dated, where I felt desired for about a week shortly after we started dating – I’m pretty sure the catalyst was an argument I had with her best friend (long, long story).  Other than that?  Can’t say I’ve really seen a girl show desire effectively.

    I will loudly second the point about touch.  Here’s an example: last week, I met an international student, a girl from Spain, and asked her out.  We met at a coffee shop and talked.  She was very willing to pat me on the arm or chest when I made her laugh, hold hands right away, and at one point when she got up to refill her coffee, she came back, stood behind me, and put her hands on my shoulders to ask if I wanted some too.  Enjoyed it so much I changed plans on the spot to take us dancing – not that I’m any good, but we had a great time.  Touch is apparently just culturally more accepted in Spain.

    The touch works.  I haven’t felt this attracted to a girl in a long time, and she’s only a bit above average-looking (great accent, though).  Had to go home and read Roosh just to remind myself to not get too excited.  You can bet that if she wants to wait for sex, I’m willing.

    Try it, girls.  If Susan is going to be putting up girlgame advice, it deserves to be field-tested.

  • Anacaona

    .  After accepting date 3, she immediately inquired as to how his visit had been and what we’d done.  Something like that shows me that she’s actually paying attention to me, and that she is interested in me beyond just our dates.  It makes all the difference in the world, and frankly makes me far more willing to hold off on sex if that’s what she wants.

    Wow things are bad if this is what you consider special about dating? Now that you mention it though that is how hubby made a difference with me too. Most of the guys were really…cool about it he was the only one that asked questions and remembered data and shared how his day was at work. Sharing day to day experiences built attraction and intimacy at least for us it seems like it is.

    Physical affection is suppressed in Eastern cultures as well. What are you getting at?

    So I’m the only one that was brought in a culture were you hug people in a regular basis?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So I’m the only one that was brought in a culture were you hug people in a regular basis?

      No, the Walshes are big huggers. Lots of American families are very demonstrative, this probably varies a lot by ethnicity. No one culture prevails. Here in Boston hardly anyone hugs, although young people do as a greeting.

  • lovelost

    @Susan

    You mean one blog post at time. :-)

  • Olive

    @Chris,

    I am so sorry. Your stories make me so sad (and angry at the stupid women who cheated on you!). I wish I could tell you that you will find a girl who desires you, one who isn’t a total bitch. But I honestly don’t know. I wish women took more risks in getting themselves in relationships, and I wish they weren’t hell-bent on getting the hot guys they think they “deserve.” If it makes you feel any better, I know some (not a lot, but some) girls who have always been passed over, and I feel certain they would be more than appreciative of guys who treat them right. But they aren’t putting themselves out there, so they’re hard to find. And even if you saw them, you might not think to look at them. All I can say is good luck, and I hope you find someone who truly desires you.

  • http://gravatar.com/weezul Chris

    @Olive

    I appreciate the sentiment.

    Let me make a prefacing statement to my own experience:  I’ve never dated above a 6.  The top-tier girls are out of my league; I’m not over six foot, independently wealthy and/or a major asshole.  So I knew I’d never have a relationship with them.

    Besides, I prefer geeky/mousy/intellectual girls.  The bookish ones.  The ones who often do get “passed over” as you say.  Some of us enjoy finding them.

    All of the stories from my sordid dating past?  They were all girls of that type.

    This isn’t a “bitchy attitude because I’m hot” sort of phenomenon.  It’s common even among the girls I’ve indicated (I don’t like phrasing a group, any group, as “lower” so I won’t do that).

    As I said, it’s academic now.  I’m MGTOW.  Woman wants to date me?  She’d better express serious interest.  And even then I’d hesitate.

    And as Susan has pointed out in this excellent piece, women are not successfully communicating desire.  At least not for most of the men.

  • Passer_By

    Good stuff.  All of it.

  • Olive

    @Chris,

    Yeah, I agree, it’s not a “bitchy attitude because I’m hot” phenomenon, it’s a “bitchy attitude because I’m a girl” phenomenon. Sad that the bookish types are going this way too. I’m wondering if it was a friend thing… like your exes’ friends didn’t approve? That could be not it at all, I dunno. I only ask because my friends tried to get me to break up with my BF last year. They thought it’d be fun if we were all single together (i.e. looking for relationships by hooking up… idiots). They never actually came out and said it, but my guess is they thought my BF wasn’t hot enough. Or he was too clingy. All I know is they had no problem with my other friend and her “hot” boyfriend. In any case, like an idiot, I almost listened to them. It’s hard to resist your female friends (or what some like to call the “female herd” dynamic).

    Also, not sure why girls aren’t expressing or communicating desire. Maybe they think they’ll freak a guy out with all of their emotional and feeling stuff.

  • Anonymous

    @ Olive, Susan

    Thank you for clarifying make more sense now.

    I’m in the same boat as Chris, physical desire is rather lacking in all of my relationships excluding the current.

    The current girl I told straight up that I wanted more affection and thats what I got.

    Avoids the issue of being percieved as beta if you command her to do it.

  • Ceer

    @ Susan

    Nice job with the thread.  Points 1-4 all seem to be on target.  However, I’d couch number 4 more in terms of a man’s innate need for respect, rather than a fragile ego.  Something similar could be said for women and beauty.

    Going forward, I think this advice leaves clear that the best counter a woman has to hookup culture is:

    1)  Learn how to approach
    2)  Keep partner count low
    3)  Learn how to show respect for men
    4)  Learn how to socialize with men as individuals
    Perhaps you could go on at length about some of these?
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ceer
      Well, I’ve written numerous posts about 1 and 2. Re 3, how do you think women should show respect for men? As for socializing with men as individuals, do you mean dating?

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    I’m no therapist or anything, but it seems to me that you need to go out someplace with loads of women and just go balls-out, spitting game left and right, acting like you actually know how to pick up women, until you finally get a girl who will at least make out with you if not fuck your brains out. If she makes out with you, then you need to find a way to parlay that little bit of action into some hot sex, either with her or someone else. Places that serve alcohol are good places to start.

    I think that will cure your issues with women.

  • Dessert_Cup

    I think that sort of desire goes beyond just desire for men sexually.  A lot of it is just being a decent person, as shown in Zach’s first post about his background where girls showing interest and displaying good manners is considered exceptional.

    My first relationship is also my current relationship is also my first LTR, and it’s about to be over as far as I can tell.  It feels to me as though I’ve been taking care of her for months, which is what I thought men were supposed to do in the relationship.  I pick up the bill way too often for how long we’ve been going out (over a year), I’m basically her cabbie (she has a bike, I have a car, but we’re both going to the same university and there are plenty of other ways for her to see me besides my traveling), and I spend most of my time with her doting on her.  Just last night she took over my room to study for a big test, while I stayed in the living room writing a paper.  I left to go out to catch up with a friend and was told (not really asked) to bring food back.  I did, and when I asked for her to pay me back, she was angry and claimed that I didn’t even say hi or care about how she was doing.  I pointed out that she was sprawled on my bed, eating my food, and I just brought her more.  This is after months of trying to talk about my frustration.

    How I know we’re pretty much done?  I found her anger hilarious and couldn’t take it seriously.  I think the only reason I’ve been staying with her for so long is because she’s been my first, and we’re insanely close, and I don’t know if I could find someone else like her.

    This sort of disparity between who does what in a relationship goes far beyond sexual needs and touching and really extends to just being a good person.  Hooking up with someone or finding someone in the short term is all about compatibility and confidence, but I found out (through a small sample size to be sure) that that might not be enough to base a LTR off of.

    Does anyone else find that those traits don’t correspond to fulfilling LTRs?

  • Passer_By

    Also, this is why the notion that sexbots will replace women seems pretty silly.  Sexbots cannot simulate real desire and respect, Cherry 2000 notwithstanding.  Heck, I doubt even hookers can simulate it.

     

  • Michael of Charlotte

    1 combined with 4 would probably do a number on me.  Throw in 2 and make me believe 3 and I’d be fighting hard not to put you on a pedestal.

    1 and 4 combined are probably the boldest thing a woman could do.  Lets say I’m with my friends at a bar and my girlfriend walks in.  I give her a friendly greeting and she grabs me a plants a passionate kiss on me in front of my friends.  She breaks the kiss and says, “I need you to take me home right now and fuck me like you did last night.”  She then begins to drag me out of the bar.

    My God, how could I ever resist a girl like that?

    Sex seems to be something that women let me do to them or something I get for saying the right thing at the right time.  Suffice to say, yeah show me desire.

    In short, 1-4…  definitely.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Michael of Charlotte

      There’s a story I’ve told here before but not in a while so it will probably be new to most of you. A while back a college frat guy commented that all the guys were under pretty intense peer pressure not to get into a relationship. One brother fell hard for a girl and made her his gf, but he took a lot of grief for it. One day they’re at a party and the guys are talking in a group. The gf came up, put her hand on her bf’s junk, and told him she wanted to go upstairs. They left, and the guys just stood there in silence for a moment. Then one said, “Respect.” Another said “Word.” and that was the last time the guy ever caught grief.

  • http://www.decoybetty.com Deidre

    My parents are extremely affectionate. Lots of hugging. But I also learned a lot about cuddling from being an animal lover, ie cuddling dogs and cats.  A dog will lie with you indefinitely if you continue to scratch behind his ears or rub his back.

    The first night I spent at Inspector Climate’s house (WAY before we were having sex), he lay his head in my lap and I played with his hair and rubbed his neck.  Later he told me that all the girls he had ever dated had insisted that he do that to them, but not a single one had ever reciprocated!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deidre
      OMG are you married?

  • lovelost

    @HUS

    We need to transition from hugLess to more of a hugMore society. This is the best i can come up with now.

  • 108spirits

     After accepting date 3, she immediately inquired as to how his visit had been and what we’d done.  Something like that shows me that she’s actually paying attention to me, and that she is interested in me beyond just our dates.  It makes all the difference in the world, and frankly makes me far more willing to hold off on sex if that’s what she wants.

    A guy doing what she did risks being too keen / creepy / stalkerlike etc. Roissy had a post on this, I believe. Remembering the little things she said is a double-edged sword, and more often than not, the sharper nastier side stares at the guy’s face.

    Anaecona, I bet a lot of the guys you dated remembered nearly everything you said, but they didn’t bring that up due to the above. This is a big problem for STEM guys who usually have better than average memory. They can’t help remembering these things but have to hold it back.

    The main problem is that a guy only goes on a date with a girl he’s attracted to, while the reverse is uncertain. A girl can go on a date with a guy for a bazillion reason, and she is not necessarily attracted to him. Typically, she’s looking for excuses to reject him as unworthy (hence the shit testing). When a girl brings up things she remembered about him from previous dates, it adds to her value in his eyes, because he’s already attracted to her. When a guy does the same, he faces a problem. If she’s highly attracted to him, he’s in like Flynn. If she is only mildly attracted or less, it will kill her attraction, because he’s recognised as being too keen. The odd for the former is tiny, while the latter is very likely to happen, so naturally guys try to avoid doing that.

  • Rum

    Chris

    How old are you? 21? Stop this men going their own way to die alone after hating their  life-shit. Just stop it. Nature does not favor that line of thought & action and will never reward it. Women love any form of boldness in a guy and it can be conjured up by just about any guy that can master the simple art of not taking anything seriously or personally. Do not worry about what people are thinking of you: because they are NOT thinking of you. That mindset is a dead-end of futility. Just find a woman who is as confused and needy as you are and ask her to go for a ride on your motorcycle to the beach or somewhere. It really is that easy.

    You do have a bike, right?

  • Desiderius

    Funny how I was asking for this post as you were writing it.

    Sis and friends will be reading…

    Heart unbroken momentarily.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Funny how I was asking for this post as you were writing it.

      I was winging it – I knew I had to change up the tone/mood here.

  • Lark

    Susan – You are way too nice to the guys. Yes DESIRE. Plenty of desire and it’s surely what men crave. Key word in that sentence: MEN. Not whiny little boys who throw hissy fits when they don’t get their way [in the love dept.]. It works both ways. A woman is designed to surrender and to only show true desire towards a man who genuinely LOVES her. So many of these men that comment on your posts are anything but LOVING. They’re argumentative brats that lean toward blame-shifting women for all their romantic woes. Give me a break. Men are naturally designed to be sensitive to a woman’s desire. A woman’s desire and a man’s worthiness both play into each other.  More of one, more of the other. One danger I see in this post is that GIRLS [I'm talking about non-mature women here] will read your post’s suggestions and use it as an excuse to exercise their sexual impulses rather than act out true desire. It’s shaky ground that we walk on. Women have to know themselves well enough and be grounded and centered to know the difference between a desperate urge to hook up with a guy to “keep” him and knowing without a shadow of a doubt that what she feels for the man is strong and absolute heady DESIRE. I believe it is the latter that men crave more than anything. My only wish is that Men will make it easy for us women to demonstrate this true desire towards them. and please don’t call us whores for doing so.

  • Anacaona

    Anaecona, I bet a lot of the guys you dated remembered nearly everything you said, but they didn’t bring that up due to the above. This is a big problem for STEM guys who usually have better than average memory. They can’t help remembering these things but have to hold it back.

    Yeah I’m starting to guess that men in this culture learn to repress a lot of things in order to keep in the game. Its a shame indeed.

  • Olive

    Later he told me that all the girls he had ever dated had insisted that he do that to them, but not a single one had ever reciprocated!

    Whaaa?? Really?? Well geez, no wonder some guys expect sex from women to prove they’re actually interested. Maybe it’s because otherwise, they don’t get anything at all. Guys like to be touched and cuddled too. I thought all girls knew that, but apparently not.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    By the way Susan, I wrote this over 2 years ago:

    http://www.rosehope.com/how-to-love-men/

    I read over it now, and I think it needs a ton of updating! Especially with the 4 fine points from this post.

  • Sassy6519

    It’s kind of surprising to me to hear that lots of men don’t feel desired or haven’t felt desired by the women in their lives during the past or present. I think that’s a shame. Obviously, those women need to step up their game.

    I think the best way a woman can convey desire for a man before they have sex is by being sensual, not sexual. Being sexual revs up the engines for both people too much and too quickly. Being sensual, however, starts a pleasant slow burn that can’t be easily put out. Here are some ways, tried and tested by yours truly, that women can convey desire before having sex with a potential guy.

    1. Emit seductive eye contact. Eyes are the windows to the soul indeed. Look at a guy like he is the tastiest morsel on the planet. This type of eye contact should be hot enough to heat both the man and woman up. It heightens the anticipation and I’ve caused men to stop mid stride with this type of eye contact.

    2. Hand feed him something. I’ve found this works well. Take a small piece of food, preferably fruit or candy, and feed it to him, allowing your fingers to linger against his mouth. Let him feed you to, all the while giving him the eye contact described above.

    3. Be honest about what parts of his body you find attractive. Don’t be afraid to tell him “You have a great butt” or “You sure do know how to wear that shirt”. Let him know that you find him physically desirable. One of my favorite things to do with my ex (sorry to keep bringing him up) was compliment him on how he smelled. A simple “You smell fantastic/delicious” was enough to get him going.

    4. As it has already been stated, don’t be afraid to engage in light touching. Hold his hand, playfully slap his shoulder/leg, touch his shoulder, anything. Just touch him.

     

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Also, not sure if you ever read my very sappy but heartfelt love letter to my husband, from 3 years ago:

    http://www.rosehope.com/love/

    Every time I read it I am reminded again of just how awesome he is. I think it sufficiently shows my appreciation, admiration and respect for him.

  • http://gravatar.com/weezul Chris

    @Rum

    Pardon me, I had to pick myself up off the floor  from laughing there.  It amuses me greatly that you think I’m some life-hating 21-year-old.

    As I’ve mentioned in past discussions, I’m 32.  No, I don’t own a motorcycle – I don’t want or need one.  If I needed a bike to get a woman’s attention, I wouldn’t want that woman.

    As I’ve also mentioned in past discussions, my MGTOW status is not due solely to past dating experiences.  But that detracts from the message here, so I won’t go into it.

    Ridicule me all you want.  It’s nothing new.  My choices are my own.

  • http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com whiskey

    My view is this is over-thinking. Women should be: A. Young. This can’t be stressed enough. B. Be Pretty (see A). C. Be nice.

    And yes, A and B beat C. Yes the above advice is good on the margins, but does not address the fundamentals. Most women want an Alpha, and let’s be realistic, they’re in competition with many other women. The man they want, the one they ACTUALLY desire, well he has many other women wanting him. That’s why he’s Alpha.

    So I’d say, stay in great shape. Have a killer body. Limit your sex partners (the experienced Alpha can ALWAYS tell and your rivals will). And yes be nice. You can’t stay young forever, so remember you’re at a limited time auction. Don’t stay on the sidelines too long. This really is not that complicated. [Avoid plastic surgery, that's fake and fake breasts are off-putting to most guys. Just remember an average-pretty 22 year old beats Jennifer Aniston as she is today.]

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women should be: A. Young. This can’t be stressed enough. B. Be Pretty (see A). C. Be nice.

      Unless you’re George Clooney, pick two.

  • 108spirits

    “I was winging it – I knew I had to change up the tone/mood here.”

    What you need here at HUS are more Field Reports from girls (or guys) going out applying what they’ve learned from this place. All you’ve got so far are a few girls whining that blah blah blah don’t work for them. If guys do that on any “community” blog, they’d get told to write up some detailed FRs so others could tell them what’s going wrong.

    There’s only so much you can do with theorizing and poo flinging, I mean bitching at each other. What matters in the end that each of us goes out and applies what we’ve learned to change our life the way we want it to be.

    I tell my stooges (boys I train or mentor) to keep training logs for that reason. I keep a few myself.

    The girls in your focus group: what are they actively doing about their love life?

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @108spirits

      The girls in your focus group: what are they actively doing about their love life?

      They’re trying a bunch of different approaches, some work better than others. Some are in relationships. Some are dealing with LDR. Some implement my advice, some don’t. Now that they’ve all graduated and scattered somewhat, I have less of a pipeline, though many do keep in touch.

      I think you’re right about FRs though. They would be very helpful. I see two impediments to receiving many here from women:

      1. I actually get a lot of them offline. Sometimes I share them in posts. Unfortunately, whether accurately or not, feedback from the men is often of the “Solipsism! Projection! Hamster wheeling!” variety rather than concrete feedback on specific steps taken.

      2. The whole FR concept is very male. I am not aware of any forums where women share them. Women are much more likely to go in for a general advice column, but it’s generally not an analytical exercise. I’m not sure that it can work with a coed audience.

  • jack

    I call foul on the whole “fragile male ego” lie.

    There is nothing more fragile about male egos than female egos.

    Women are the ones hiding behind endless social prostheses like makeup, heels, and push-up bras.

    Women are the ones that surround themselves with chick-mags that endlessly proclaim how fabulous their lives are.

    If women had to put up with the blows to ones self-esteem that is part and parcel of MOST mens’ daily lives, they would be lock themselves in a room with a five-gallon bucket of Ben and Jerry’s and never come out.

    Men on average, are probably far psychologically tougher than women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I call foul on the whole “fragile male ego” lie.

      Just to be clear, that quote is from Ricky Raw, a male blogger very popular in Game circles.

  • jack

    And as exhibit “A” in my argument, I will point out how for most women it is absolutely crucial that they never “feel judged”.

    Men never say that. Fear of judgment is empirical proof of the fragile ego.

  • http://foreplayformen.net Plucky Charms

    I have got a important information about What Men Need From Women. Can you tell me What women Need From men?

    Thanks for your posting.

  • KiaW

    This list sounds superb. I’ve only been told by a handful of girls that they found me attractive (including, fortunately, one last week). Not that they “liked” me, but that there was an actual, physical attraction. Each time, it moved me to more alpha-ish action since it gave me that all-important confidence. Don’t lie about it, but don’t be afraid to say it if you feel it.

    The physical contact aspect is also quite important, but it can backfire. I’ve been confused in the past by several girls who enjoyed physically flirting with no actual attraction. Some people just may be more touchy-feely than others and it’s hard to tell if she likes you or if she’s leading you on before her Ukrainian athlete boyfriend shows up. Don’t hesitate to use physical affection if you want to signal attraction, but it needs to be complemented by other actions as well for it to work.

  • Abbot

    for most women it is absolutely crucial that they never “feel judged”

    then its merely a matter of not engaging in judgement-worthy behaviors and “activities”

  • Dogsquat

    Fenix said:

    “The traditional dating system requires guys to take all the risk and bear all the uncertainty. For example,

    Get her number (10%)
    Get a date with her (30%)
    Get a second date with her (50%)
    Get a third date with her… (40%)

    The percentages in the brackets are roughly how successful I am at passing each gauntlet.”

    Fenix, why are you still fucking around asking for phone numbers?

    Skip right to the second date – you’ve got a fifty-fifty shot.

  • http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

    great post Tia. well said.

    i’d link you, but i’m sure the last thing you need is more traffic.

    it’s really odd to me that so few women realize what you’re told them. us men really AREN’T that difficult. and 98% of us don’t require that much maintenance. just provided general up keep and we’re good to go.

    if i ever post any “girl game” stuff, this will be a part of it. on second thought……

    pinged.

  • Pingback: dannyfrom504

  • Valentin

    So Susan might we start some sort of glossary for HUS? Like a permalink somehwere where we keep adding and people can go and look there? Right now I’m lost at: LDR and FR.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Valentin

      So Susan might we start some sort of glossary for HUS?

      Sure, why not. Once I get the forum up, we can have a sticky post there, but for now I’ll make a note to put one up as a page.

  • Isabel

    ^ Ditto, Valentin. It’s fairly hard to keep up sometimes; particularly with the economics language. =.=

    Missing another 100 or so but it’s a start:

    FR – Field Report
    LDR – Long Distance Relationship
    LTR – Long Term Relationship
    STR – Short Term Relationship
    AMOG – Alpha Male Other Guy
    P&D – Pump and Dump
    CC – Cock Carousel
    DTF – Down To Fuck
    SNL – Same Night Lay
    ASD – Anti Slut Defence
    HB8 – Hot Body 8
    L1 – Ladder 1
    L2 – Ladder 2
    SMV – Sexual Market Value
    SMP – Sexual Market Place
    MMV – Marriage Market Value
    SAHM – Stay At Home Mum
    STEM – Science, Engineering, Tech and Maths.
    LOL – Amanda Marcotte
    R/B – Risk/Benefit
    OC – Opportunity Cost
    ROI – Return On Investment
    CPL – Cost Per Lay
    MGTOW – Men Going Their Own Way
    GG – Going Ghost
    MRM – Men’s Rights Movement
    MRA – Men’s Rights Activist
    InCel – Involuntarily Celibate
    PUA – Pick Up Artist
    SP/N – Sex Positive/Negative
    T – Testosterone
    SoCon – Social Conservative
    AWALT – All Women Are Like That
    NAWALT – Not All Women Are Like That
    MWALT – Most Women Are Like That
    AMALT – All Men Are Like That
    NSBM – No Sex Before Monogamy

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Isabel
      What a contribution! Thanks for that glossary – that is an awesome foundation. Will work on putting that up, and people can suggest additions in the comment form at the bottom of the page.

      P.S. Love the LOL def.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    No, I don’t own a motorcycle – I don’t want or need one. If I needed a bike to get a woman’s attention, I wouldn’t want that woman.

    I didn’t particularly care for the tone of Rum’s post and I don’t think you “need” a motorcycle to get any woman’s attention. However, I do think that Rum has a point. Women (and not just women, btw, but all people) like some fun and excitement. We like people who make our hearts race or make us laugh so hard our sides hurt. We like people who make us think new things. And we like people who get us to stop thinking sometimes and start feeling.

    The vast majority of women do NOT require a motorcycle to get their attention. But the vast majority of women DO respond well to a guy who can add some excitement to their lives.

    You said you were never the type to go for “hot” women, that you went for shy, studious 6’s. If you’re going for 6’s thinking they don’t want the same sort of excitement and fun that 10’s want, that’s a poor strategy. 6’s want to be swept off their feet with excitement and fun just as much as 10’s. Who doesn’t?

    And if you don’t want a woman who expects a bit of fun and excitement from her man, then, idk, maybe you’re doing women a favor by going your own way.

  • lovelost

    @Isabel

    what does FWIW, stands for?

  • lovelost

    @Isabel

    E-estrogen. :)

  • lovelost

    @HUS

    P-Penis/Poon, take your pick.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    FWIW=For what it’s worth

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Lovelost

    I think “FWIW” is just a quick way to write “for what it’s worth.”

    If not, then I’ve been reading it wrongly for years! Hahahaha!

  • Escoffier

    FWIW = “for what it’s worth”

  • Isabel

    Lovelost,

    E- estrogen. :)

    That’s how the soulless spell it. It’s actually oestrogen, don’t listen to them.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    Lovelost,

    E- estrogen. :)

    That’s how the soulless spell it. It’s actually oestrogen, don’t listen to them.

    And you can check my encyclopaedia if you don’t believe us. ;-)

  • Dogsquat

    That’s how the soulless spell it. It’s actually oestrogen, don’t listen to them.

    Bah.

    Nobody can hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

  • deti

    “And if you don’t want a woman who expects a bit of fun and excitement from her man, then, idk, maybe you’re doing women a favor by going your own way.”

    That’s a bit harsh.  I don’t know if I’d put it quite that way.

    “And if you don’t want a woman who expects a bit of fun and excitement from her man, then, idk, maybe you’re doing yourself a favor by going your own way for now.”

    Maybe that’s better.

    I get the sense that the MGTOW folks got there through a few ways, most of which are quite valid:  

    1.     Emotional and financial devastation in the divorce meatgrinder, alienation from children as a result

    2.     Repeated failure in the SMP, being sick and tired of having to jump through others’ hoops just to get a date.   As I’ve said in the past, if you have no chance of winning, why even try to play?

    3.     Victimization through false sex harassment allegations.

    MGTOW probably wouldn’t be for me, but I can see how some view it as a viable option.  It’s contributing to societal breakdown all around us.   It’s a major reason why we still read the stories of women in their mid 30s to late 40s, either never married or divorced, and cannot find new men.   Those stories are only picking up in intensity and frequency.

  • deti

    @  Lark:

    “You are way too nice to the guys. Yes DESIRE. Plenty of desire and it’s surely what men crave. Key word in that sentence: MEN. Not whiny little boys who throw hissy fits when they don’t get their way [in the love dept.]. It works both ways. A woman is designed to surrender and to only show true desire towards a man who genuinely LOVES her. So many of these men that comment on your posts are anything but LOVING. They’re argumentative brats that lean toward blame-shifting women for all their romantic woes. Give me a break.”

    Cool your jets, Lark.   A lot of the men who comment here are quite experienced in the relationship department and have been burned about seven ways from Sunday, every day of the week.  A lot of the men who comment here have played by the old rules while women have been playing by the new ones for 30 years or more.   A lot of us didn’t even know there were new rules until we found the manosphere.   There’s a lot of frustration here, and we talk about it openly.  This is one place we can have that discussion.   There’s plenty of blame to go around, and the dysfunction of this SMP is not all the fault of men. 

    Calm down.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “fragile male egos,” etc….when a person is dealing with a high-stress situation, especially one that can be dangerous, he needs to keep his emotions under control. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t *have* feelings, but I suspect it’s often interpreted that way.

    Most recent…worthwhile reading & viewing

  • Jesus Mahoney

    deti,

    Sure, I can see men taking a break after being burned. That makes sense.

    But I’ve read a number of Chris’ posts and he doesn’t strike me as someone who’s achieved happiness as a result of going his own way. I mean really, if he actually were happy having gone his own way, why would he be following a blog called hooking up smart?

    I can see being frustrated about jumping through hoops to get a date. But repeated failure means he needs to change his strategy, not give up. If he were jumping through hoops, my advice would be to cut that shit out. Jumping through hoops is a sure fire way of losing a woman’s respect.

    I can understand bitterness and frustration and confusion and all that. What I can’t empathize with is giving up and playing the victim. I’ve read stories of men and women who survived concentration camps and refused to identify as victims. I’ve heard stories of kids who were raped and abused and still refused to play the victim card. I’m supposed to feel sorry for a guy who gives up because he doesn’t know how to find and keep a girlfriend? Not happening.

    Every victim has “reasons” for remaining a victim. But if Chris were willing to do the work, he could find and keep a woman. If Chris were willing to do the work, he could be getting laid by a different woman every week. If Chris were willing to put in the time and effort, he could have whatever the hell he wanted.

  • Valentin

    Holy Moses, thank Isabel I just saved that as a .doc for future reference. Much appreciated that you helped me out writing all that :)

  • lovelost

    @Bellita & @Isabel

    Estrogen is correct, see the link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/68004967

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @lovelost

    I don’t know about Isabel, but my comment about oestrogen and encyclopaedias was focussing on the humour of it all.

  • lovelost

    @Bellita,

    :) i know. same here.

  • deti

    1.  Show him you find him sexually desirable.

    2.   Nurture him, show affection and give him physical contact.

    3.   Show him loyalty and fidelity.

    4.    Communicate admiration and respect.

    All these things are good advice not just for women seeking a man.

    This is proper care and feeding of a husband.

    I guarantee that any husband who had his wife doing these things for him would be the happiest man on earth.   Hands down.

     

  • Sock!

    @ Susan

    RE: FR- while the whole concept does tend to be very male, it’s because most of the institutions that developed them were solely male based and followed accepted masculine culture…
    in the military they’re ‘after action’ reports.  On the commercial side I’ve seen them named differently and implemented in a number of ways, that wasn’t solely within a male culture.  The better organizations of the world tend to do something similar to improve performance.
    The best tend to be coaching/mentoring programs, the worse opportunities to others to flame and bash.  Don’t get hung up on the term, but recognize a great learning tool  and concept.

    While I can understand and appreciate your concern regarding a co-ed audience, especially where the male responses have been what they were (right or wrong) they are opinions proffered and they’re open for the author to take or leave as wanted.  In the community the FR can and have become flaming exercise, which moderators need to moderate, but they are HIGHLY successful for an individual to see themselves reflected in their own writings and an opportunity to get others to comment and leave thoughts and suggestions.  It’s not always easy to hear and often not quite nice.   Often though someone reaches out with a bit of insight that will change your approach or understanding a bit that makes a difference.
    In those occasions it tends to open up a dialog.  That dialog can lead to many places.  Regularly friendships and mentoring starts to occur, usually to the betterment of both parties.

    Combined with active journaling and you have two incredible tools at your disposal for recall, reflection and analyzing.

    I know.  My life was transformed this way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sock!
      Thanks, you’ve given me something to think about. I do love the idea of people supporting one another with insights and suggestions that may have eluded the OP.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Marvelous, marvelous post Susan, but it doesn’t touch on the primary problem.

    Most men will never be desired by a desirable woman in this way.  I can’t begin to count the times I’ve read a post by an unremarkable girl that started like this:

    I only find about one guy in a hundred sexually attractive.

    Well, that wouldn’t be so bad if it were different men that provoked that desire for different women.  After all, you only need one man, but in general (and life is far too short to either disregard or universalize generalizations) any man who knows where his rung is in the manerarchy of his social circle can predict how much female attention he is likely to solicit.

    When i was about to marry Mrs. Mule, I was advised to lay in a good quantity of this stuff:

    I’m happy to say we have yet to purchase the first tube.  THAT’s what men want from women.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Oops

  • H man

    Ladies,

    Just learn how to give compliments to men. We don’t get much of those as well as not geting physical touch. Do both and you’re in. Oh. and don’t stop even after you’re married.

  • http://gravatar.com/weezul Chris

    @deti , I appreciate the step-in at #87.  Been a busy workweek!

    It’s interesting how some would assume I’m not interested in fun or excitement.  Or that I’m only MGTOW due to SMP failures.  I’m still a human being; I love having fun!  One of my favorite things to do is get some friends together for games and jokes.  Even participated in a stand-up open mic night once.  I flubbed, but still had a blast.

    (Not to affront Jesus M. here.  I think he’s a bit off the mark on me, but that’s only based on the few words I’ve given here.  His HUS commentary is well thought out and a good read.)

    As I’ve mentioned before, I am looking into Game to see what benefits I can derive.  My being here at HUS is part of that effort.  Obviously I’m not here all the time, nor am I studying Game 24/7.  More important things to do.

    I’m not a victim (though I’ve witnessed some horrific treatment of men close to me).  Nor will I be dismissed as one.  What I am is a man who’s made a choice.  And I’m not alone.

    Anyway, back to topic.  MuleChewingBriars makes a very good point at #100.  Sassy touched on it in a previous discussion too.  If a woman doesn’t find a man sexually attractive, everything afterward (even if they try to communicate desire) will ring hollow.

    I wonder; would communicating desire in this fashion help to STIR desire in some way?  A form of self-encouragement if the woman isn’t sure?

    Just asking as a thought experiment.  If this discussion’s done, it’s done.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Anacaona

    “So I’m the only one that was brought in a culture were you hug people in a regular basis?”

    No, I was brought up in an Old Country style huge family, with lots of cousins, aunts, uncles, and the whole nine yards. Lots of hugs and physical affection. Problem is, I was an introvert, so I needed lots of late night walks alone and solo hikes to recharge the mental batteries before the next family outing  :-)

  • Mike

    This blog entry gets my full endorsement.  I was thinking seriously about what a list of what I want would look like, and you beat me to many of the key points.  Haven’t had time to read all responses here, or to the other new posts, but I’ll try to get around to it tomorrow.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    @Susan #62,

    Yep, and I guarantee that guy was one of, if not the new Alpha.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Splendid post, a lovely thing to see. Way to roll with the punches after the heaviosity that befell the last one. Well done Susan.

  • Anacaona

    No, I was brought up in an Old Country style huge family, with lots of cousins, aunts, uncles, and the whole nine yards. Lots of hugs and physical affection. Problem is, I was an introvert, so I needed lots of late night walks alone and solo hikes to recharge the mental batteries before the next family outing  :-)

    I meant everyone not just family, in my culture hugging people you just meet is completely acceptable. Lots of physical contact everywhere you look and you don’t.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Chris,

    With all due respect, you sound a bit like you’ve adopted a victim mentality. These are some highlights from what you’ve said over the past week or so:

    MGTOW is less about what “some women” have done, and more about the environment those women have created. The one that you, me, and everyone else have had to live in for the past 30+ years. Not just social. Legal, financial, etc.

    Wow. Suddenly a lot of my past dates make sense. They weren’t thinking about the guy (me) at all, were they? Too busy thinking about their friends, instead of the man trying to get to know them. I’ll have to remember that 0n future dates.
    Oh wait. Never mind.

    Wow. Echoes of my past self here. In my early 20s I would have waited the 12 weeks (especially if I cared about the girl). I did wait, several times.
    Got me less than nowhere.

    I have never, in any of the relationships I’ve had, felt desired.

    I don’t even know what being desired feels like.

    She subconsciously tried a bait-and-switch on me. I didn’t bite. She walked.
    And mind you, this was an attractive woman – but a shy intellectual type. Not one of the model-type 8s or 9s. I generally go for geek girls and bookish girls. Beta girls, I think someone labeled them in a previous discussion.
    The behavior’s still the same. Very little variance in how fast I’m friendzoned.

    This sort of thinking puts the man entirely at the woman’s whim. At any time she could feel that he’s “being too nice” – just for making this sort of effort – and we all know what happens then. Friendzone for you!

    Good women? Sure. Met a few. They all left.

    If I can make it through life without one ridiculous “harassment” lawsuit, or a woman claiming her kid is mine (which is impossible), then I’ll be a happy man.

    What I’ve learned so far?
    –If you want a relationship (or even just sex), use game and be a jerk. It’s the only thing that works now.
    –Anything else? Walk away. Not worth the risk anymore.
    –Women don’t like this? Much as I’d like to, I can’t change it. Fix yourselves. We MGTOWs will be over here watching.

    A lot of talk about how terrible women are. A lot of talk about what women do or don’t do to you or to men you know. All negativity.

    If this is your frame, is it any wonder you’ve had such terrible experiences with women?

  • Olive

    @Chris

    I wonder; would communicating desire in this fashion help to STIR desire in some way?  A form of self-encouragement if the woman isn’t sure?i

    I’ve never thought about it, but actually, I’d say the answer is yes. If you go into a relationship telling yourself “I’m only here right now because I can’t get anything better,” you’re not going to be very attracted to your partner, are you? On the flip side, if you are determined to love someone and remain faithful, you tell yourself and your SO about how attractive you find him, until you actually convince yourself. That probably sounds like lying to yourself, but bare with me.

    I’m forever using my relationship as an example (at the risk of getting burned lol), but I think it’s once again relevant here. For a long time, I was determined to find a small, dark-haired guy (I’m less than 5 feet tall, so that explains the whole liking smaller guys thing). Anyway, when I first met my current BF, I was like wait…. this dude is blonde, and he’s 6’3″…. what the hell am I doing?? At that point I had two choices: decide he wasn’t my type, or go for it and build attraction. That probably sounds outrageous to a guy, especially the whole building attraction thing, but I went for option 2 and I am quite happily in love these days (AND sexually attracted, an important part of any relationship).

    The important point, particularly for girls, is that sexual attraction isn’t just about first impressions (not sure I can say the same for guys though). And if you’re sticking to a specific prototype, which is what many girls do, you might be missing out. Of course, people make their own choices. I can only share my own experience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      At that point I had two choices: decide he wasn’t my type, or go for it and build attraction. That probably sounds outrageous to a guy, especially the whole building attraction thing, but I went for option 2 and I am quite happily in love these days (AND sexually attracted, an important part of any relationship).

      Women are very susceptible to building attraction over time. Obviously, one doesn’t want to spend time chasing a spark that will forever elude you, but I do encourage women to keep an open mind and see where things go. I have definitely been surprised at times by developing a crush on someone I had initially not been attracted to.

  • Olive

    Also @Chris,

    You probably don’t want to hear this from me, especially because I’m not a guy. But I do think it’s worth mentioning, particularly since it sort of relates to what I just wrote.

    In light of what JM just posted, I got to thinking about the stories we tell ourselves and how they affect our interactions. For me, being stuck on one repeating tape of “this is what I want, this is what I want,” could’ve kept me from taking advantage of a great opportunity to meet a wonderful guy and fall in love.

    For MGTOW, it’s different but somehow related, at least in my eyes. It’s the same concept of playing a tape inside your head, until you get in a funk that might cause you to miss out if a fantastic girl comes your way. I was reading an old message from my BF earlier today; he wrote it before we were dating, and I thought of this conversation as I was rereading it. I won’t post his exact words here, but the general gist was that life is all about taking risks knowing that failure is possible, even likely. I would add that you just have to tell yourself the right story, and then maybe failure won’t be so likely. I think JM and I are saying the same thing, in different words. It’s all about a changed mindset.

  • Anacaona

    I have definitely been surprised at times by developing a crush on someone I had initially not been attracted to.

    I like my men like I like my milk hot white right before going to sleep. But I developed a crush of the size of the moon in a really dark and short guy. I never pursued it because a) married and b) college teacher. But how I enjoyed his classes, all discretely drooling for him. One never knows with the right personality the body agenda might do a rewiring if needed, YMMV.

  • Desiderius

    “P.S. Love the LOL def.”

    Yes, thanks for the drink up the nose there, Isabel.

    Good one.

     

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    This is obviously great stuff. But I see a problem.

    -A good portion of women you would sell this to will say, “what kind of MAAAAN needs to be rubbed and have his ego stroked? I don’t want to date a guy who is NEEEEDDY like a little BOY!”

    -And another group of women, who think it looks good on paper (just like they say they want a nice guy to treat them well, when they aren’t presented with the options in the flesh) but when it comes time to actually do it their stomachs turn – again gripped by anti-nurturing, cold-male stereotypes.

    This all goes back to the general observations of young men in today’s marketplace, that the girls are viciously punishing any sign of what they perceive as weakness, any betatude or signal of invirility or lack of options.

    I recall reading a book about male infidelity where a psychiatrist outlined his cases and why men were cheating on their wives. He found in his therapy that active touch and appreciation (and sex) by wives was effective in cooling off a man’s feelings towards an affair. Common sense, right? Sounds like Athol Kay but a lot more expensive.

    But a female friend of his (not a patient) responded with a sneer: “the thought that my man needs a bunch of warm fuzzies is…kind of a turn-off.”

    Sad times we live in.

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A good portion of women you would sell this to will say, “what kind of MAAAAN needs to be rubbed and have his ego stroked? I don’t want to date a guy who is NEEEEDDY like a little BOY!”

      Hmmm, this is interesting. Let me think out loud for a minute. I think you’re right that women view needy as desperately unattractive (as do men). They don’t want to be running damage control to prop up someone’s self-esteem. But that’s not what this post is meant to be about. I’m not suggesting that if women do these things they can shore up the confidence of an otherwise desirable man. I”m suggesting that if they find a man desirable, these are things they can do to improve their odds of getting a favorable response from him. Guys say all the time that they like women who like them. Many guys here have said that if a woman approached them or asked them out, they’d be so surprised and delighted they would definitely say yes.

      There’s also the very real appeal of seeing a glimpse of the little boy inside a strong man. Actually, there are few things that delight women more than to see the man they care for reveal that vulnerable part of himself. In small doses.

      Those of you who recall my infamous shit test know that it was the overwhelming emotional need that was repellent, even though it was completely justified. Need is perceived as weakness, and women don’t tolerate that in men very well. As you know.

      In any case, I’m not addressing that in this post. I envision more of an exchange – a giving in both directions, between two people whose self-esteem is fine.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “The important point, particularly for girls, is that sexual attraction isn’t just about first impressions (not sure I can say the same for guys though). And if you’re sticking to a specific prototype, which is what many girls do, you might be missing out. Of course, people make their own choices. I can only share my own experience.”

    We can’t misunderestimate girl-on-girl peer pressure, either – huge expectations to snag a guy the other girls will approve of, driving you away from “types” you might actually like.

     

  • DelFresco

    Many many great points in this post. This one in particular struck me:
    “Women have not transitioned to gender equity in dating. They are loathe to relinquish a system in which the male takes all, or at least most of, the risk..”

    I think there’s a lot of truth in this and I rarely see it mentioned directly. Rejection is tough. Incidentally, this ties into your post from a few days back about men giving up. You get smacked down enough, you’re gonna get discouraged/frustrated.

  • Olive

    @Badger,

    We can’t misunderestimate girl-on-girl peer pressure, either – huge expectations to snag a guy the other girls will approve of, driving you away from “types” you might actually like.

    Yeah that was also a significant part of my dilemma. I knew my friends would look at my BF and be like “Well, glad I’m not dating him.” And if you’ve happened upon some comments I wrote elsewhere, you know the story of my friends trying to get me to dump him a year ago.

    Also, believe it or not, a week or so after my BF and I made it official, a mutual guy friend made fun of me for dating someone who “hasn’t had a girlfriend since 8th grade.” I get at least a little sick pleasure from knowing that this particular friend has been miserably single for almost 2 years because he became manipulatively clingy in his last relationship.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Truly a great post, Susan.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    El Marques,

    The myth of the fragile male ego is still lingering on the battlefield like an old Russian T-34 tank. It’s true that male egos are fragile during the years of puberty, but after that the fragile-ego-battalion is made up excusively by women and gay men.

    But do you disagree with this point?: 

    If you publicly build up your man’s ego, whether in front of his friends, family or even total strangers, he will think you’re the most wonderful woman in the world.” 

    Maybe it’s not do much that a man’s ego is fragile.  Maybe it’s that men have the need to feel validated, revelant, to know that he’s needed (hope that made sense).

  • Sassy6519

    Maybe it’s not do much that a man’s ego is fragile.  Maybe it’s that men have the need to feel validated, relevant, to know that he’s needed (hope that made sense).

     

    That’s what I’ve gathered from my experiences. I hope the men on here will let us know if that’s true. It’s important to clear up perpetuated misinformation so that it no longer spreads.

     

     

  • 108spirits

    Fragile male ego huh? If you’re not doing those things for your man, what does he need you for? Sex?

    Let Chris go his own way. He’s a grown man, he doesn’t need you to tell him what he should do.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Yeah that was also a significant part of my dilemma. I knew my friends would look at my BF and be like “Well, glad I’m not dating him.” And if you’ve happened upon some comments I wrote elsewhere, you know the story of my friends trying to get me to dump him a year ago.”

    My ex’s friends didn’t care for me. I was too geeky and didn’t flash enough cash for their tastes. (Their relationship statuses? Single.) My gf started to make this known to me, and sympathizing with it. I started to think about pulling the trigger, and eventually did.

    Renee,

    “Maybe it’s not do much that a man’s ego is fragile.  Maybe it’s that men have the need to feel validated, revelant, to know that he’s needed (hope that made sense).”

    Yeah, I don’t understand why validation and appreciation is synonymous with “fragility.” We (or, women doing the choosing) have redefined normal human needs as “needy” and “unmanly.” Then again, maybe part of this “fragile male ego” is how hard some women punish men for not living up to the Marlboro Man. I think it’s really hard for women to understand how a few bad experiences with women can really screw up a man’s mind – seriously, the most meaningful messages a young man will get about how a man should be are those he gets observing which men women want to be with.

     

  • 108spirits

    Female friends of my exes either tried to get them to dump me or to steal/fuck me. Go Team Woman!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Female friends of my exes either tried to get them to dump me or to steal/fuck me.

      Intrasexual female competition is an ugly truth we all need to accept. Best friends will subtly, and sometimes unintentionally, make efforts to sabotage a friend’s relationship when they feel envious. A single woman who wants a relationship is capable of limitless Schadenfreude.

  • Anacaona

    We can’t misunderestimate girl-on-girl peer pressure, either – huge expectations to snag a guy the other girls will approve of, driving you away from “types” you might actually like.

    I’m actually thinking on making a post or several about how to destroy a woman’s herd. If used for good many women that might be interested in serious relationships can get out of toxic circles for it. What many men don’t notice is that the herd usually has a leader, most of the time women are shamed because the highest status female is constantly pushing the agenda if she falls all the others might be a window of chance of actually making a personal choice or find a new herd with less pressure for the beau.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I’m actually thinking on making a post or several about how to destroy a woman’s herd.

    I don’t know if that’s actually possible – that stuff’s pretty hardwired – but I’d love to see you write on it. I think repeatedly (& publicly) addressing it could help to weaken that mindset’s hold, if only a little.

  • Anna

    I couldn’t force myself not smiling widely at the title of this post. Haha. That are some thought-provoking advices. You are totally right, it is not enough just offering sex. LOL

  • Dogsquat

    Byron said:

    “I don’t know if that’s actually possible – that stuff’s pretty hardwired – but I’d love to see you write on it. I think repeatedly (& publicly) addressing it could help to weaken that mindset’s hold, if only a little.”

    I dunno, dude. Depends on the length and type of relationship the girls have, I guess. I doubt this applies for family groups, but I think most groups of non-related women have fairly brittle friendships when compared to men.

    Spend some time getting to know the girls. If you’re looking for it, most women will inadvertently reveal some insecurities rather quickly. It’s a good bet that some level of jealousy lies just beneath that insecurity – jealousy of one or more girls in the group that aren’t afflicted with said particular insecurity. That’s your ready made powder keg – just toss a match into it.

    Pump up the #2 girl in the group – praise her, validate her especially about non-physical assets she values, and subtly denigrate the #1 girl a few times. This will make the #1 girl feel a bit threatened and insecure, while having the opposite effect on #2. A good camouflage for this is offering “advice” in a one-on-one setting – but calibration dictates.

    Then start a rumor about #2 talking shit about and disclosing the secrets of #1. Fan those flames a bit, and the group will end up choosing sides between #1 and #2. There are always unseen (to outsiders) tensions between the girls in a group. Identify them and exacerbate them.

    At the very least, they’ll have something other than you to bitch about.

    Just an idle thought, anyway.

  • Olive

    @Anacaona,

    What many men don’t notice is that the herd usually has a leader, most of the time women are shamed because the highest status female is constantly pushing the agenda if she falls all the others might be a window of chance of actually making a personal choice or find a new herd with less pressure for the beau.

    THIS. When a leader is pushing her agenda on a group with many “go along, get along” types, it’s impossible for anyone to change the group agenda without a huge fight. Or, in my case, you just leave the group altogether and you no longer have to deal with anyone’s stupid agenda.

    I’d argue that because of what women are fed these days (ahemkimkardashian), there aren’t actually very many herds that don’t perpetuate this kind of pressure. But perhaps I’m just jaded since I left my herd under bad circumstances.

  • Olive

    Also, I’d add that the leader is often difficult to detect, even for girls who are part of the herd. The loudest, most boisterous person may be seen as the herd leader, but everyone could be deferring to someone who seems more complacent. When a herd has two leaders vying for power… now THAT is just fascinating.

  • Isabel

    It’s not herd mentality, it’s more a crab mentality. Either they all advance (i.e. commitment from a suitably high status guy) or they all remain static (i.e girls’ nights out!!111!!!). The medium ground doesn’t materialise until option 1 disappears but I’d say the worst of that behaviour is restricted to the motherbitches. The majority of girls are forced to keep that stuff to a pretty low level because ultimately, it’s delayed social suicide. That said – I know a girl who dumped her boyfriend for not buying her little presents (muffins, charm bracelets, cupcakes etc) every month on the 19th (her actual birth day) because that’s what her best friend was getting from her BF. Oh, and she thinks this song is her life’s anthem. I genuinely don’t understand why she’s so popular with guys smh.

     

  • Isabel

    I just realised how shamelessly pro-hypergamy that song is, lol.

  • Olive

    Intrasexual female competition is an ugly truth we all need to accept. Best friends will subtly, and sometimes unintentionally, make efforts to sabotage a friend’s relationship when they feel envious. A single woman who wants a relationship is capable of limitless Schadenfreude.

    SO true. And it’s funny, for all of this “I don’t need a man to make me happy” crap, we always come back to women needing men to make them happy.

    Also, I just realized both mindsets are terrible, because they assume the man is there to make the woman happy. Someone who is so focused on being happy won’t try to make her guy happy (something I’ve witnessed far too frequently).

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ” I”m suggesting that if they find a man desirable, these are things they can do to improve their odds of getting a favorable response from him.”

    I’m suggesting that a lot of women, upon receiving this advice, will reply “my man should just be crazy about me from the word go, I shouldn’t have to mother him like this.” In other words, they’ll find him less desirable by thinking he has emotional needs (only cads lack emotional needs). Obviously I think these women are nuts, callous and absorbed with unreasonable concepts for how men work.

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Obviously I think these women are nuts, callous and absorbed with unreasonable concepts for how men work.

      Me too, so let’s make them the spinsters.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

     

    Dogsquat,

     

    man, that’s some seriously machiavellian shit right there. I guess that’s what a career in the military will do for you..  :)

    All that stuff will work to some degree on individual women, & in individual situations, but it still won’t change the hardwired nature of womankind, & we shouldn’t be expecting it to. Women really care what their friends think of them, & of you, too, in a way men find it hard to really comprehend. I’ve never had a relationship where my friends opinion on the girl i’m with would ever have made any difference to me either way: I know I like this woman, that’s all anyone needs to know, end of story. And I’ve never had any male friends who would feel entitled to offer opinions like that of anyone i’m with anyway, other than expressing happiness that I’ve found someone I like.

    The friends of women I’ve been with, on the other hand, have often weighed in with their opinions on me, which the girl herself would sometimes then report back to me(!) as if I would be interested in this fascinating soap-opera viewers survey. o_O

    The fact that a gossiping nest of vipers could cause someone in love with me to doubt that love & our relationship is kind of ugly & shocking to me, & ironically, has only ever had the result of making me think more poorly of the woman I was with.

    The point is, anyway, that’s just the way of the world: women overall tend to have more of a herd mentality than men – that’s simply how they evolved, & with good reason. There’s no point in us blaming them, you can’t expect them to change their fundamental natures overnight, or even this millenium. But speaking about it can make us aware that it is at least a factor, & that can help diminish some of that regime’s totalitarian might…..

     

     

  • Ted D

    The female group dynamic mentioned is very interesting…

    I have never, every spent any length of time with “girly” women.  In fact, every single one of my LTRs was with a women that had very, very few female friends.  As in, 4 or less.  None of them ever had a “girls night out”, and other than the occasional hang-out at someone’s house, never really spent time without at least inviting their guys to come out with them.

    I asked every single one of these women why they had so few female friends.  Their answer? To paraphrase them all into one answer, “women are bitches!”,  They all told me about how they had been stabbed in the back by a supposed friend, or had a friend that was overly bossy with their love lives and whatnot.  The only female friends they had, which is no surprise to me now, were other women that were involved in LTRs.

    So ladies.  It seems to me if you want to have a successful LTR, you either need to:

    A. surround yourself with like-minded women that will support your relationship instead of trying to sabotage it.

    B. Have a strong enough will to tell your “friends” to bugger off when they try to manipulate you.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “When a ma-an loves a wo-man…”

  • Ramble

    To paraphrase them all into one answer, “women are bitches!”

    Ted, I told a story here a while back about one very intelligent, and very sweet, girl I dated back in the day that had only 1 female friend (and, they were losing touch). She said that the reason why she had few female friends is because she was sexist. Girls are emotional, dramatic and prone to doing all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons.

    She said that men were not much better, but they tended to be straight-forward and honest about their less than noble ways.

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

     

    Dogsquat,

    thinking further on your (comically) monstrous solution, it strikes me how what most men would find morally repugnant & shamefully manipulative is actually just commonplace female behaviour from about the age of 12 on, n’est-ce pas?

    Made me think also of how, once women get to grips with the actual mechanics of Game, how it is actually carried out, they seldom feel as morally outraged & torn as ‘good’ men do about it. It’s female behaviour, damn it!

     

     

  • Anacaona

    @Dogsquat, Olive

    Mmm it seems that I do have material to talk about. Doggy is right find girl number 1 and the rest is very easy as a woman I had seen the rise and fall of herds more than once, like Olive says sometimes is hard but usually not that difficult whoever they are emulating probably. I will say that I’m usually a wild card I can enter the herd and see what is it and separate myself once they do something really stupid I though there was something wrong with me for not participating in shitty schemes (like trying to destroy the pretiest girl in the class) but I guess that is the masculine part of my brain not buying it, maybe.

    @Byron

    Is not about destroying a female tendency is more destroying a particular herd so the woman can move on to a new one, a single woman that gets a boyfriend when all her other friends haven’t is in a precarious situation a woman with a boyfriend that makes new friends is probably going to find like minded women in relationships so that will make it easier for the guy in question. I do agree with your suggestion that a woman has to find like minded people but this is again part of the media programing that a woman that leaves her girlfriends over a man is a sexist that set back feminism to the 50’s or whatever crap they try to sell, so giving a man some tools to help her girlfriend to separate from the herd seems sensitive. If anything I would be wary given that part of the reason men in my country can cheat left and right is that there is a lot of social pressure to “not let the other woman win” or “don’t destroy a relationship for a mistake” and whatever crap they are pushing that day, so a seasoned PUA could destroy a good herd to make his girlfriend/wife become part of one that might presure her to keep him around no matter how shitty he treats her. Like Game this is a sword that can be used for good and evil, depending on the guy…decisions decisions…

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    With great power comes great responsibility.

  • Sassy6519

    I think one of the main reasons the bad “herd mentality” of women is so prevalent today has to do with the fact that the media has portrayed so many examples of bad female herds over the past few decades. The examples I can think of off the top of my head would be:

    1. Mean Girls

    2. Heathers

    3. Sex and the City

    4. Pretty Little Liars

    5. Bring It On

    6. The Hills (I loathe this show)

    7. The Bad Girls Club

    The list goes on and on. The other problem is that many young girls and teenage girls emulate the way these women act because it is perceived as cool or popular. I was a teenager when Mean Girls, The Hills, and Bring It On came out. Almost every girl I knew or talked to watched, loved, and quoted these movies and shows like they were part of the Bible. Lots of the girls I knew growing up did everything in their power to be a part of the “cool kids” group in high school. Men have their hierarchy, but women have cliques, which also operate like hierarchies. There’s always a low hum of competition floating around the female herds that operate this way. Women try to find ways of slowly knocking the queen bee off the throne to take it for herself in these groups.

    I’ll agree with a few of the other female posters on here by saying that I have witnessed these behaviors first hand, and it can be a scary thing.

  • lovelost

    @Isabel

    #76

    UMOT– Unmarried Man Over Thirty

  • allie

    “Intrasexual female competition is an ugly truth we all need to accept. Best friends will subtly, and sometimes unintentionally, make efforts to sabotage a friend’s relationship when they feel envious. A single woman who wants a relationship is capable of limitless Schadenfreude.”

    BINGO! and that is why I keep any potential dates etc on the down low with friends. I know how they are and really could careless what they think about any potentials. Most of them think that I’ve never been on a date because I never bring up my love life (I don’t want the drama and analysis.) I wouldn’t introduce a boyfriend until I was 100 percent sure we were solid and had everything worked out on our terms… I could give a flying duck what my friends think. I have a feeling they would try to sabotage even though I have been the one to encourage many of them to continue with their own relationships during meltdowns (I was the one who rationalized and calmed them down and its sad that I cannot expect the same). I lost a friend to a relationship but I knew that he was what she needed for a future husband.

  • Mike C

    I just realised how shamelessly pro-hypergamy that song is, lol.

    Just listened to it with the lyrics on the screen.  Wow, damn straight.  Pro-hypergamy along with a little beta bashing in there as well (call too much, clingy).

    In one of the threads somewhere, Escoffier made the spot on point about women smashing down their hypergamous instinct.  Ultimately, it is very self-destructive and really the source of much unhappiness for many women FOR THEMSELVES.  And songs like this are really horrible because essentially they are a celebration and justification for the hypergamous impulse…”I’m bored so you are my next ex”.

     

  • Mike C

    There is a parable…and I am paraphrasing and shortening it up here…..but basically it is a poor man and a rich man who is constantly seeking every greater wealth.  The poor man says to the rich man that he has something the rich man will NEVER have, and the rich man asks what that is.  The poor man replies ENOUGH.

    We’ve had countless number of discussions of various things, and ultimately I see two main memes that on the surface level look good to women, but on a deeper level are actually very negative.

    Meme 1 – Your twenties are for “fun”, “exploration”, “empowerment”, “liberation”.  That all sounds good, but what it is really code for is make yourself easily sexually accessible to men you have no chance of locking down or getting a lifetime commitment from.  You get used to living a “rich” lifestyle on a “moderate to poor” income and therefore damage your ability to be content with the moderate lifestyle down the road.

    Meme 2 – Never “settle”, you “deserve” the best.  Essentially, this leads women to rule out men they could probably be happy partners with in search of the better man, and then the better man after him (the rich man above).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Love the Memes. That’s halfway to being a brilliant PP presentation. I agree that they’re both real, prevalent and toxic. It’s also clear that they are a straight path to Singledom in Perpetuity for many women.

      I read an article yesterday saying that a pretty high percentage of Americans expect to have to cut way back on their standard of living in retirement. That makes no sense to me – the whole idea of planning for retirement is to prevent that. Of course, the economy has undoubtedly hurt many, but that’s all the more reason to cut back now. Our culture markets and rewards consumerism and short-term gratification, in every area of life. In Italy, consumerism is the frequent explanation for the low childbirth rate – young Italians love their material goods. It will be interesting to see how austerity measures there play out.

  • Mike C

    Also, believe it or not, a week or so after my BF and I made it official, a mutual guy friend made fun of me for dating someone who “hasn’t had a girlfriend since 8th grade.” I get at least a little sick pleasure from knowing that this particular friend has been miserably single for almost 2 years because he became manipulatively clingy in his last relationship.

    Olive,

    Is this person still your friend?  If so, why?  Just my opinion, but one of the biggest mistakes people make both male and female are having “friends” who are negative energy vampires.  I’m 37, and I’ll tell you one of the most valuable things I’ve learned since my early 20s is the necessity of cuting certain people out of your life like a cancerous tumor.  In my early 20s, I had all sorts of “friends” who for many reasons were people I should not have been interacting with, talking to, hanging out.  As I got older, I realized if someone wasn’t a net positive influence in my life and a source of support, there really was no point having them in my life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is this person still your friend? If so, why? Just my opinion, but one of the biggest mistakes people make both male and female are having “friends” who are negative energy vampires.

      I agree 100%, and I too learned this the hard way. If someone intentionally makes you feel diminished in any way, at any time, they’re not a real friend. That’s the rule that has served me well. Life improves dramatically when you ditch the negative energy vampires (I love that phrase).

  • Dogsquat

    Byron said:

    man, that’s some seriously machiavellian shit right there.

    It pays to be a winner.

  • Olive

    @Mike C,

    No, he is not my friend anymore. I talk to him maybe twice a year, and in those cases, he initiates the conversation (my theory? He’s trying to see if my BF and I are still together, because he thinks it’s outrageous that after all this time we’re still happy and he got dumped. I think it’s a guy competition thing).

    Anyway, you and Susan are totally right, it pays to cut out people out who are doing nothing but perpetuating negative energy. Last year I did a lot of that, and it’s one of the primary reasons I left my group of friends–too much negativity.

    There’s a small problem though: because of this female herd stuff, I’m scared out of my wits to find a new group. I guess that’s kind of why I’m here participating in this blog. I’m happy in my relationship, but I don’t like what women have become. And in this dog-eat-dog world of bitter competition and resentment among women, it’s difficult to maintain a relationship and have female friends. My relationship has become exponentially more functional and happy since I stopped spending time with women. Which makes me feel ever more isolated, like I’m putting all my eggs in one basket.

    Interestingly, I’ve found that other women in LTRs aren’t interested in hanging out because they spend all their time with their SOs. They’ve put all their eggs in one basket too. So strange. It’s too much effort to understand the female dynamic these days. :-/

  • DerHahn

    @Susan 153 re birth dearth

    Based on things I’ve been reading for a while now I’m starting to wonder if the CW on why birthrates drop (increasing standard of living leads to less infant death therefore fewer babies) is backwards.  A society with increasing resources (carrying capacity) should have more children, not fewer, since they are more likely to be a net resource.

    I’m starting to think the real reason is a lot uglier.  As people start living longer they start putting off reproduction in favor of spending the additional resources on themselves.

  • Escoffier

    DerHahn, it’s more complicated than that but basically, yes.

  • Olive

    @DerHahn,

    A society with increasing resources (carrying capacity) should have more children, not fewer, since they are more likely to be a net resource.

    Yes and no. I was an environmental studies major, and we talked a lot about population dynamics and the concept of carrying capacity. It’s been awhile but here’s my best explanation: as a country’s resources increase, there’s a huge boom in population growth (you can see this in countries like China and India). Before, there was a high infant mortality rate, so people still needed to have lots of babies to account for the ones that were dying. However, when things get better, the infant mortality rate decreases, but the baby-making rate (i.e. fertility rate) remains the same for a time; it takes a generation or two for the reproduction strategy to adjust. Finally, people start having less babies because more babies survive, and the age distribution becomes more equal (there are more old people, less children/babies). In this way, population growth stabilizes and even declines. Europe and the U.S. (i.e. the “developed world”) have already stabilized, while the pop. growth rate is still increasing in places like China, India, and Mexico.

    If you talk to almost any environmentalist, they will tell you pop. decline is a good thing, as the world only holds a finite amount of resources. People who advocate throwing condoms at developing countries to decrease the pop. growth rate don’t quite understand the natural course of development and population growth.

    Check out this silly link and look at graphics 1 and 3:

    http://www.biologycorner.com/worksheets/interpreting_data.html

  • Olive

    Also, I’ll add that in nature, if a population keeps increasing, it crashes when the species overuses its resources and there are none left. Gradual decline is probably a good thing. Crashing is not.

    On the other hand, ever seen the movie Idiocracy? That would be a bad thing too.

  • Escoffier

    Olive, the crash theory really hasn’t borne out.  Diamond’s big book Collapse, for instance, looks pretty shakey today.

  • Olive

    Also, what’s happening in China is REALLY bad. They tried to artificially stabilize their pop. growth rate via the one child policy. People started aborting and abandoning their female babies because in China, a male offspring is better able to take care of a couple as they grow old (female offspring just get married off to another family). Now, there are no women for the men to marry, and meanwhile the members of the “boom” generation are growing older. They’re going to have a serious problem economically when the younger generation cannot support the older generation.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

     

     

    Regarding population growth, & the earth being a finite resource, etc: everything Olive says +1.

     

     

  • Olive

    @Escoffier,

    The crash theory has been observed in nature; gypsy moths are a good example (check out this link and scroll down to density-dependent checks on pop. growth: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Populations2.html).

    (Also, sorry, I’m really just doing Google searches and coming up with stuff I’ve already learned. Feel free to seek out more reliable sources).

    As for humans, we haven’t seen the end of population growth globally. We just hit 7 billion the other week, and by 2050 we’re supposed to hit 9 billion. It’s been said that the world can hold 11 or 12 billion people before it’s bad news bears.

    Malthus was wrong when he made his crash prediction (he didn’t take into account technological advancements in agriculture). However, we have other things to worry about now, including global climate change.

  • Olive

    (Sorry Susan, this convo is so OT it’s not even funny.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (Sorry Susan, this convo is so OT it’s not even funny.)

      That’s OK, think of HUS as a living room, and you’re in a corner having a chat. That’s very different than making a speech and demanding everyone listen.

  • Desiderius

    Olive,

    “(Sorry Susan, this convo is so OT it’s not even funny.)”

    Not really. It is what is driving the chaos in the SMP. The “traditional” rules arose in the context of a growing population. I’m more skeptical of the limits on that growth than pretty much anyone here (I was born the year the seed of life put forth its first shoot toward the cosmos, so sue me), but I know I’m in a tiny minority.

    New rules will need to be developed for stable/declining populations in the near/medium term. Idiocracy would be a good cautionary tale to keep in mind to guide that development.

  • Desiderius

    This whole bust up her posse meme seems awfully misogynistic.

    I know a lot of exclusively or primarily female support networks that work well.

    The distinguishing characteristic among them is diversity of age/experience.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    Olive (and Desiderius), your pessimism prompts me to write. Question for you: where is it written that 7 billion (or thereabouts) is the max number of humans that planet can support?

    Whoever says so with authority is speaking through his hat. The real number is unknowable. When I was in my twenties, I too was told “with authority” that the planet was overpopulated, the birds were disappearing and the next great ice-age was coming due to pollution. I believed it too.

    You’re right about Malthusius, but I don’t think you understand why. The real deal is that, although the earth is a finite place, there’s no such limit on human smarts and ingenuity (or love, for that matter, which is the reason some people are moved to think intelligently about such things). We can be stupid, and take a step backwards. But when we’re smart the effects are much longer lasting. Being fatalistic may be intellectually fashionable at times, but it’s never been a historically correct way to see things.

    Malthus died, but not before denouncing the ideas that are attributed to him.

  • Mike C

    I read an article yesterday saying that a pretty high percentage of Americans expect to have to cut way back on their standard of living in retirement. That makes no sense to me – the whole idea of planning for retirement is to prevent that.

    Retirement planning is a pretty complex subject (this is actually my side business, retirement planning and investment management).  The fact is most people WILL have to cut way back because they simply did NOT save enough during their working lives to replace their pre-retirement income.  The fact is when you retire you’ll have X dollars and X dollars has to last until you die.  Social Security will most certainly be reduced going forward.  There are so many variables here.  Anticipated medical costs, is the house paid off, are you going to travel a lot?  The average 50-something 401(k) balance is like 50-75K.  Just surreal.  I don’t know what these people are going to do.  Eat cat food?  I really could type pages and pages on this subject.

    Our culture markets and rewards consumerism and short-term gratification, in every area of life. In Italy, consumerism is the frequent explanation for the low childbirth rate – young Italians love their material goods. It will be interesting to see how austerity measures there play out.

    I’m with you 110%.  Generally speaking, austerity measures have not worked in countries that have tried them either from the perspective of jumpstarting the economy or reducing debt burdens to GDP.  This is another subject where I could type pages.  In my view, the endgame is debt monetization for countries that control their own currencies and inflating away the debt.  The nominal obligations will be met but the real purchasing power will be severely degraded.  I’d be interested in your husband’s take on this.  Given his background and work, I’m sure he has thought deeply about many of these fiscal/financial issues.  Did you see that Alabama county that declared a multi-billion default.  It is just the beginning.

  • Anacaona

    Interestingly, I’ve found that other women in LTRs aren’t interested in hanging out because they spend all their time with their SOs. They’ve put all their eggs in one basket too. So strange. It’s too much effort to understand the female dynamic these days. :-/

    I think you need to find women in the same stage as you in order to find the balance. Not  matter how close you are with your partner is dangerous if he becomes the center of your whole existence not because is unhealthy but is unsustainable too much presure the moment he can’t watch a movie you want with him, or worst he hate it it can start to down on you that he doesn’t care about your needs, and so on. I think you can find one or two women a small herd is more manageable or even worst two or three women that don’t know each other so you have friends and no herd. If things go bad and their relationships fails they would have less power to try and influence you and chances are they won’t even try. I hope that helps

     

    If you talk to almost any environmentalist, they will tell you pop. decline is a good thing, as the world only holds a finite amount of resources. People who advocate throwing condoms at developing countries to decrease the pop. growth rate don’t quite understand the natural course of development and population growth.

    I really enjoy that your point that out, one of the issues I have with environmentalists is that they are usually studying the issue of population from one angle. Coming from the third world I can tell you that the house I share with my husband and our cat is bigger than the house I shared with my three siblings and my parents (and we had our three cousins visiting for over a year) so the whole more people = more resources and less people = less resources is not always true many child-free people and couples spent all the time, money and energy they didn’t spent on raising a family on material goods, new cars, luxuries and travel. IME most of the people that don’t want to have children are not making a rational choice out of concern for the environment and do other choices to keep reducing their impact, is most a question of status (high status = few children and those few children usually have to have a high level of disposable income to compete with the neighborhoods kids’s GPS, designer clothes and Ipads, low status = many kids that have to share clothes and privileges and even rooms, that is not considered  smart or high status anymore )and being used to being responsible of the less amount of people hence there is a bit of fear of kids and the impredictibly of life, IMO.

    I will add that enviromentalists also downplay the effect of having a large family in the psyche since we evolved in large family’s settings. I still have to wrap my head around the concept of “play date” my play time was the moment I opened my eyes till I went to sleep, kids are very good at entertaining themselves with their siblings, then you learn to share by default, and to negotiate with your own gender and the opposite, is part of the narcissism epidemy that kids are born and raise in environment where they don’t have to compete for resources and this are given just because they exist? I wouldn’t be surprise.

    And of course the part were our aging population is not decreasing thus by the time a lot of them retire there won’t be enough work force to work in taking care of them and support the institutions that can support them and give them the best care. Of course maybe the solution to that, like MGTOW is robots. An affordable caring robot for an old person and more robots to continue the economy is a race at this point if we can make the technology work before societal collapse starts.

    I do agree that the decline should be guided but shaming large families and breeders is not the best way to “save the planet”, YMMV.

  • Olive

    @Ana,

    Thanks for your perspective/advice on the female friend situation! I’ll make it my next goal to find a few friends who are in the same stage as me. :-)

    I love what you say about living in big families but having few resources. Many young environmentalists just don’t understand… they think more people = more pressure on the environment.

    Actually, I thought of something else, but didn’t get to writing it until now. The notion of carrying capacity not only depends on the amount of resources available and the number of individuals in a population, but also on the amount of resources each individual consumes. This means two things: 1) if we cut down on consumption, we greatly increase our carrying capacity, and 2) countries with high pop. growth rates can actually be contributing less to overpopulation than countries with low pop. growth rates/high levels of consumption. In fact, my ecology professor argued that the U.S. is one of the most overpopulated countries in the world, because the rate at which we consume resources is unsustainable. In order to keep consuming at this rate, we actually need the developing countries to remain poor.

    @Joe,

    Our imaginations can only take us so far. I’m honestly not that pessimistic as far as the planet is concerned… I have no doubt it will continue on without us. But the consequences of global climate change will be extremely grave for humans. Millions of people who live along coastlines will die as the sea level rises. Fresh water will become scarce. There are real environmental problems we need to deal with right now, and the solution starts here, in the U.S.

  • Hope

    @Olive “In fact, my ecology professor argued that the U.S. is one of the most overpopulated countries in the world, because the rate at which we consume resources is unsustainable.”

    Consumption is required to keep the economy “healthy” — as in, always “growing.” The entire modern economic system is based upon this model. Without growth, it is screwed. That’s what is happening now. Sad, isn’t it?

    But no, we shouldn’t question the economists. They know what’s best for us. We need to de-regulate and take away the pollution and environmental protections so that we can go back to double-digit growth, get rid of minimum wage so we won’t have such high unemployment, and pillage the Earth by drilling, fracking and spoiling as much as we can so that we can be economically prosperous!

    Sigh. Yeah, I’m rather pessimistic right now about the future.

  • Olive

    @Desiderius,

    Not really. It is what is driving the chaos in the SMP. The “traditional” rules arose in the context of a growing population.

    I’m not quite sure what you mean here. I sense that you’re arguing that the out-of-whack SMP is contributing to some serious baby-making, and that traditional marriages are supposed to limit pop. growth. If this is your point (and I could be totally wrong), I would hesitate to agree. Many misogynist countries that punish women for sleeping around (check out the Middle East!) are still developing; i.e. their pop. growth rates are relatively high. I’m not sure that marriage has much to do with it.

    Although education for girls has everything to do with it. It’s been observed in nature that the older a female is when she starts reproducing, the fewer times she’ll reproduce. This makes sense for women: a girl who gets started at 14 can have tons of babies before she hits menopause. But getting a girl in school can keep her from being married off early. Hence she’ll likely make fewer babies.

    I’m more skeptical of the limits on that growth than pretty much anyone here (I was born the year the seed of life put forth its first shoot toward the cosmos, so sue me), but I know I’m in a tiny minority.

    Yeah I’m gonna go ahead and say I don’t advocate this idea of colonizing Mars or the moon. What happens when we screw up those planets? And God forbid we become those weird human creatures that live in space a la Wall-E.

    New rules will need to be developed for stable/declining populations in the near/medium term. Idiocracy would be a good cautionary tale to keep in mind to guide that development.

    LOL. Idiocracy was hilarious, but it really is just a movie, and a rather offensive movie at that. Just because people of a lower social class have more babies doesn’t mean they’re all going to end up stupid. Also, see my comment above. Overpopulation isn’t completely about having too many babies; it’s about having too many babies in a country where overconsumption is the norm.

  • Olive

    @Hope,

    :-(  I went to a conference back in the spring where I attended a session hosted by CASSE (check out their website: http://steadystate.org/). It’s an organization furthering the idea of a steady state economy, an economic model that is built on stabilization, not growth. They argue the same thing as ecologists: that constant growth will lead to a crash.

    Have you heard Rick Perry wants to cut the EPA? He thinks the unemployment rate is the fault of environmental regulation. What a douche.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Olive, groups like that great. Sadly, the selfish and dark people are winning this war, because they have the drive to get more profit and thus more money and thus more power.

    No matter who’s in charge, the fundamental principles of the current system are not being challenged on a widespread basis. Besides, I really don’t think China, India, etc. are going to adopt a stabilized economic system when they’re still “developing.”

  • Olive

    @Hope,

    V. true. And the thing is, I don’t think it’s fair for us to expect that India and China do adopt different systems. If we’re allowed to develop, they should too. And that’s where the ethics get all messed up, and where I decided against an environmental career. :-/

    I also agree that the people in power have too much power, and that no one’s been challenging the system. At least the Occupy Wallstreet protestors know they got screwed, but not many of them seem to know why, or how.

  • Dogsquat

    I don’t have the formal knowledge base some of you folks have WRT ecology, carrying capacity, etc. so this is just a hip shot opinion, but:

    I think we’re in pretty bad trouble from bacteria.  The bugs are evolving faster than we can make antibiotics to kill them.  Most of the low-hanging fruit in antibiotic development is picked, and we seem to be moving toward a health payment model that doesn’t incentivize the development of this type of drug.

    What a world, eh?  Imagine the mortality rate of strep throat climbing to 2%, or urinary tract infections killing you 10% of the time, and 20% of the time you end up on dialysis.  Imagine an HIV virus as communicable as measles.

     

    I need to buy stock in an isopropyl alcohol manufacturer…

  • Desiderius

    Joe,

    “Olive (and Desiderius), your pessimism prompts me to write.”

    Joe, I’m with you 110%.

    You shame my despair. Thanks for reminding me what courage looks like.

  • Desiderius

    Olive,

    “I’m not quite sure what you mean here.”

    You can say that again. Here’s what I mean.

    The 1% (worldwide) has sold a large chunk of the 2-20% on all sorts of nihilistic reactionary bullshit marketed as progressivism (sic), the most pertinent here being that the earth is too full. Believing this, and looking to set a good example for the 21-100%, that cohort deprioritizes family formation/frantically promotes alternatives.

    As assortive mating is ultimately driven by (yes, nuclear, monogamous, lifelong) family formation, that (assortive mating) too breaks down, especially among the 2-20%, wreaking havoc on the SMP as soft polygamy/polygyny becomes increasingly widespread. If the 2-20% would assort, the various carouselers/watchers (both female/male) would have nothing left to ride/watch.

    “Yeah I’m gonna go ahead and say I don’t advocate this idea of colonizing Mars or the moon. What happens when we screw up those planets? And God forbid we become those weird human creatures that live in space a la Wall-E.”

    We, kimosabe?

    If life can make it across thousands of miles of ocean to Easter Island or into the cores of underwater volcanoes, I don’t think she’s going to have much patience with your oh-so-fashionable contempt for your species. If yours isn’t up to it, she’ll invent a new one.

    I believe humanity is up to it. The interesting question is how so many of our best and brightest have been sold on an anthropology so inhumane.

     

  • Desiderius

    Olive,

    “V. true. And the thing is, I don’t think it’s fair for us to expect that India and China do adopt different systems. If we’re allowed to develop, they should too. And that’s where the ethics get all messed up, and where I decided against an environmental career. :-/”

    +1.

    This is where the fake progressivism* breaks down. It’s ultimately beside the point.

    * – aka political correctness – the liberal tradition as cargo cult.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    28 Susan Walsh wrote:

    Is this common? That a woman is in a relationship yet expresses no desire?

    ‌(You are surprised?)

    If anything, we’ve got a problem in this SMP where women are expressing desire too readily, just not to the best men.

    Well, if that that is only point where desire is expressed ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, if that that is only point where desire is expressed ?

      I am a bit surprised that women in relationships are not expressing desire, yes. Supposedly, we are not as interested in sexual variety, but prefer sex with a favored male. Assuming that is who we’re in a relationship with, sex should be a high female priority.

      If promiscuous women are the only ones expressing desire, which is obviously based on some primal hindbrain attraction rather than as a cumulative expression of love and affection, then it sounds like there is no “higher” love anywhere.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    34 Odds wrote:

    Try it, girls.  If Susan is going to be putting up girlgame advice, it deserves to be field-tested.

    Second.

  • http://www.amerika.org/ Brett Stevens

    A courtship system benefits both sexes. Instead of wearing themselves out on the search for The One, they are able to force all comers through a series of tests, so that only probable (not just plausible) candidates get close to them.

    In such a system, we loose access to easy sex, but we gain more stability and freedom from burn-out. Most people I see now are burned out, even when they’re married. It’s like their affection and tenderness receptors in the brain are fried, dry and enervated.

    What a more traditional system does is let you keep your innocence and thus spend your most productive years on the one you love, not the ones who “got away.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brett Stevens
      What a great comment. I have never thought of courtship precisely that way before – I always think of it as “shopping” but it’s more than that, it is testing as you say. What we’re doing today is shopping, which does take a lot more energy and is exhausting. We’re also shopping for the wrong people. We filter in superficial qualities, do not test for character, and waste time, often years.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    46 Passer_By wrote:

    Also, this is why the notion that sexbots will replace women seems pretty silly.

    You may have a point.

    Sexbots cannot simulate real desire and respect, […]

    This assumes that desire is generally expressed.

    I think a back message is that there is no shown desire so lack of expression does not make difference.

    And is there respect, if men are generally mocked?

    MailOnline: Our husbands’ sins range from never emptying the dishwasher to letting our homes go to rack and ruin… Why must we women mock the men we love?

     

  • Olive
    You can say that again. Here’s what I mean.
    Yeah, sorry. Totally missed your point. My bad.

    The 1% (worldwide) has sold a large chunk of the 2-20% on all sorts of nihilistic reactionary bullshit marketed as progressivism (sic), the most pertinent here being tha”t the earth is too full. Believing this, and looking to set a good example for the 21-100%, that cohort deprioritizes family formation/frantically promotes alternatives.

    Hm. I don’t really think the ecologists and environmentalists are advocating the breakdown of traditional family roles. I honestly don’t think they’re interested; maybe anthropologists/feminists have built on the information environmental scientists have provided and used it to justify the current SMP standards. I wouldn’t know, I don’t have an anthro/gender studies background.

    But, you’re right that most environmentalists get it wrong. This should not be a conversation about how many people the world can hold–it should be about how much each individual can consume, and what the carrying capacity of each country is at the current rate of consumption.

    Also, the “nihilistic bullshit” is advocated by those good old energy companies (and politicians?) who think we can keep guzzling gas like it’s our job. Oil will run out. CO2 emissions will intensify the greenhouse effect. It’s not progressivism, it’s science.

    If life can make it across thousands of miles of ocean to Easter Island or into the cores of underwater volcanoes, I don’t think she’s going to have much patience with your oh-so-fashionable contempt for your species. If yours isn’t up to it, she’ll invent a new one.

    Cool. I personally am interested in humans, not other species (another reason I’m not a traditional environmentalist… I don’t really care that much about the cuddly polar bears or pandas or whatever). I don’t hate humans, I want them to keep living on the Earth. This is going to sound harsh, but I’ve found that space colonization has been advocated by people who want to justify our current rate of energy consumption in the U.S. The bad shit will happen to poor people first, in low-lying places like Bangladesh (though most of Florida will be taken out too). Meanwhile, we’ll develop a space program that flies a limited number of people to Mars? This ain’t the Titanic.

    Also, I am not a fashionable hippie environmentalist, if that’s what you think I’m advocating here. I can’t stand environmentalists who want to save the trees and the cuddly little bears and the pretty butterflies. My philosophy is pragmatically focused on human survival. Everything I’ve said so far is backed up by science, save the bit about space colonization. BTW, the U.S. just cut its space flight program… when were we going to plan for colonization?

    I believe humanity is up to it. The interesting question is how so many of our best and brightest have been sold on an anthropology so inhumane.

    Again, I think I missed your point here. I agree the SMP is inhumane, if that’s what you’re saying. The kind of environmentalism I’m promoting is anything but inhumane.

     

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    53 Lark wrote:

    Key word in that sentence: MEN. Not whiny little boys […]

    This is a just woman habit to mock man if they do not suit.

    ( I think that I have written that earlier. )

     

    Obviously woman have exclusive right to complain.

     

     

     


    Missus tells that a coffee is ready…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kari
      Did you find me through Henry? I know he has linked to me before, but of course I cannot read Finnish! I hope he is saying nice things, haha.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Anacaona…”I will add that enviromentalists also downplay the effect of having a large family in the psyche since we evolved in large family’s settings. I still have to wrap my head around the concept of “play date” my play time was the moment I opened my eyes till I went to sleep, kids are very good at entertaining themselves with their siblings, then you learn to share by default, and to negotiate with your own gender and the opposite, is part of the narcissism epidemic”…..I do think smaller families mean that kids are less-likely to interact with opposite-sex siblings, and this tends to encourage the view of the other sex as some kind of mysterious and alien species.

    But you don’t have to have a large family, or indeed any siblings at all, to play with the neighbors’ kids. It should still be possible even in a small-family environment for kids in the neighborhood to form their own world. I think one reason this doesn’t happen as much as it used to is the micromanagement of kids’ lives by parents, which is in turn driven by the almost insane level of credentialism which has become rampant in our society.

    My latest post…fiction and empathy

     

     

     

  • Olive

    @Desiderius,

    One more thing: I have no issue with the notion that nuclear families should be promoted. I grew up as part of a nuclear family, and am generally well-adjusted as a result. I admire my parents for sticking together for over 30 years, and their marriage has everything to do with my mom’s unflinching commitment to monogamy.

    I don’t think we should shy away from promoting monogamy and traditional family structures in the name of political correctness or liberalism. But I don’t consider myself politically correct for discussing/advancing notions of overpopulation and overconsumption. My beliefs about the environment are largely based on scientific principles, not on political ideology or emotion.

  • Anacaona

    I believe humanity is up to it. The interesting question is how so many of our best and brightest have been sold on an anthropology so inhumane.

    I commented months ago that it looks like life has a limit in intelligence the smartest in every culture tend to not have a desire to reproduce or/and that desire is suppressed to concentrate in intellectual advancement or career. It also looks that hotness is the real predictor of reproduction with hot women desiring and producing more children so if there is a purpose in life is to breed the most beautiful not the smartest ones. Heh at least my desire to have many children mean that I’m hotter than I’m smart, that is something I guess :p

    What a more traditional system does is let you keep your innocence and thus spend your most productive years on the one you love, not the ones who “got away.”

    I actually consider innocence a good thing and consider experience overrated the people I know who had been promiscuous are usually a mess in many other areas of their lives and no happy at all, YMMV.

    I can’t stand environmentalists who want to save the trees and the cuddly little bears and the pretty butterflies.

    Heh I though I was the only one I believe in protecting earth but the group that keeps chanting “human suck, every other animal is better than us” are completely deluded is like having Vegans environmentalist, most vegans are usually very snobbish about their choice.

    But you don’t have to have a large family, or indeed any siblings at all, to play with the neighbors’ kids. It should still be possible even in a small-family environment for kids in the neighborhood to form their own world. I think one reason this doesn’t happen as much as it used to is the micromanagement of kids’ lives by parents, which is in turn driven by the almost insane level of credentialism which has become rampant in our society.

    Well that is the problem isb’t it? It becomes something else to add to the list of “raising the perfect children” try to squeeze that during piano lessons and soccer practice. Having the other kids always around make this a default environment.

  • Olive

    Heh I though I was the only one I believe in protecting earth but the group that keeps chanting “human suck, every other animal is better than us” are completely deluded is like having Vegans environmentalist, most vegans are usually very snobbish about their choice.

    Oh my word, yes. I did a study abroad program in Panama two years ago with a bunch of environmentalist American students (this was when I was still in undergrad finishing my Env. Studies major, so my study abroad program had to have an env. focus). Several of the students were vegetarians or vegans, and at least one of them was ridiculously snobby about it. We went to a subsistence farming community where all they ate was rice, beans, yucca and meat. I think maybe he finally cut himself some slack and ate what they gave him. Some people can’t afford to be vegetarians and eat pretty tomatoes and lettuce and herbs, they eat what they have. And it would’ve been rude of him to refuse food.

    Also vegetarianism for environmental reasons is stupid in my opinion, it’s based on the idea that humans are separate from nature; we’re not animals, so we know better than to eat animals. That’s false, we’re all animals, we’re all part of the food chain, and animals eat each other, so it’s not unethical to eat animals. I can’t stand people who look down on me for eating meat and dairy products.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    I’m a vegetarian myself, but I’m not the self-righteous preachy type. I don’t mind if my friends or family eat meat. That’s their choice, just as it is my choice not to eat animals.

    I have run into my fair share of the type you described though. They spend too much of their time trying to force their views onto other people instead of focusing on themselves. It becomes annoying after awhile.

    I’m looking forward to Thanksgiving because I get to eat alongside all of my family members. They may be eating turkey right in front of my face, but it doesn’t bother me in the least. I’m too busy watering at the mouth over my Tofurkey to notice them. That stuff is delicious.

     

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @ 71 Dogsquat, you lost on chess ?

    Better than a previous picture.


    ( How you get the girl to bed? Tomorrow is a school day. )

  • Dogsquat

    Nah, Brother –

    That’s the look on my face when I contemplate living so close to the Arctic Circle.

  • Olive

    @Sassy,

    Glad to hear you’re a reasonable vegetarian. :-) Man, you mentioned Thanksgiving and now I’m starving.

  • Anacaona

    @Olive and @Sassy

    My brother in law is a vegetarian and he converted his wife they are both raising their kids to be vegetarian too but they are very tolerant and even offer to buy us meat when we visit them, the hubby and I respect their choice and go vegetarian around them but is never enforced. I actually always looking for vegetarian recipes to give to them and I was a vegetarian myself for around 5 years, I will probably go back to vegetarian again after I’m done bearing kids but I agree with Olive we are all animals I do believe in picking and choosing how our animal nature behaves but not to be snobbish about it.

  • Sassy6519

    Thank you Jeremy for that truly riveting tangent you just went on.

    Try saying something that hasn’t already been said by the few other bitter men that have stumbled upon this blog before you.

    If you want to think that way about women, fine. If women are only useful for sex, then you, as a man, are worth nothing more to women than your wallet. If you are broke/poor, then you are SOL my friend.

    (I don’t really feel that way about men. I’m just making a point)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    @ 71 Dogsquat, you lost on chess ?

     

    That was actually Burt Lancaster’s ‘O’ face.

     

     

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    This isn’t the first time I have heard of women preferring men who can “protect” them.  When i was in college back in the Ford administration, I constantly heard girls tell me they felt “protected” by their boyfriends.  However, I noticed that a lot of these boyfriends were physically abusive to these same girls, and I in my innocence wondered what on earth the boyfriends could possibly be protecting their girlfriends from.

    After a few years of observation I found out.  They protected the girls from being approached by low-status men, a fate far worse than being punched around a little.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    195 Dogsquat wrote:

    That’s the look on my face when I contemplate living so close to the Arctic Circle.

    Are you contemplating moving to Alaska?

    Both Finland and Alaska have on 60°–70° northern latitude.

    Temperature is now +5.4°C (at 18:40) on here.

    ( It is quite unsure that if there is snow on Christmas. )

     

    Wife commented that are these construction workers digging hole to Antarctica far. They are digging big hole on 50m from our kitchen window. ( Well, actually they are supposed to build a metro station.)

    There is a smaller hole digged (and explosed to rock) on 2 meters from our kitchen window. In there they are moving water pipes away from place of metro station.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    198 Susan Walsh wrote:

    Did you find me through Henry? I know he has linked to me before, but of course I cannot read Finnish! I hope he is saying nice things, haha.

    Hmm. Yes.

    wrote Hooking up smart (osa 1)  on Ihmissuhteet ja tasa-arvo:

    Hooking up smart on hämmästyttävän hyvä sivusto, varsinkin kun otetaan huomioon, että sivuston pitäjä on nainen. Sivusto sisältää tasokkaita artikkeleita ja hyvää keskustelua. Esittelen parhaita postauksia useammassa osassa.

    Women Must Swallow a Red Pill of Their Own

    Is Feminism Desire’s Kryptonite?

    Have We Had Enough Feminism Yet?

    When Putting Out Means Losing Out

    The Case for Slut Shaming, Part Deux

    The “Sex as Empowerment” Scam

    The New Sex Math: Probabilities and Opportunities

    I think that it was this from where I found you.

    You can try Google translate. ☺

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    (Side note)
    202 Kari Hurtta wrote:

    Wife commented that are these construction workers digging hole to Antarctica far.

    Well, maybe actually theoretical hole from here through Earth goes to Pacific Ocean.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    200 Byron wrote:

    That was actually Burt Lancaster’s ‘O’ face.

    I suspected that it was from some movie.

    That picture what I used, was from TinEye search. However I did not looked all found matches.

    Is it from a movie?

     

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    156 DerHahn wrote:

    Based on things I’ve been reading for a while now I’m starting to wonder if the CW on why birthrates drop (increasing standard of living leads to less infant death therefore fewer babies) is backwards.

    CW = conventional wisdom ?

     

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms


    (Hmm. I think that the girl should go to bed… Is this a challenge?)

  • Emily

    It’s possible to have female friends without hanging out in an all-female “herd”.

    IMO, it’s a huge red flag when a woman doesn’t have any female friends.  In my experience, the kind of girl who doesn’t have any female friends because “all women are bitches” are generally the ones who will try to hit on your boyfriend when you’re not looking.  There’s usually a certain amount of projection going on with girls who make statements like that.

    I get that some girls are just natural tomboys or might prefer to hang around with guys.  But there’s a difference between preferring male company vs. actively shunning all female companionship.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “IMO, it’s a huge red flag when a woman doesn’t have any female friends. In my experience, the kind of girl who doesn’t have any female friends because “all women are bitches” are generally the ones who will try to hit on your boyfriend when you’re not looking. There’s usually a certain amount of projection going on with girls who make statements like that.”

     

    In certain circles it’s considered a “slut tell” if a woman doesn’t have any female friends, circumstantial evidence that she has burned bridges with other women with her behavior, or that she has a more masculine way of doing things that is associated with casual sex.

     

    But I’m not inclined to buy it. The danger of herds is so intense for a guy trying to date one of them that I am naturally a lot more trusting of a woman with one close female friend (esp if it’s a sister or cousin) or none, than of a woman who fits in a big sisterhood group.

     

    Of course there is projection – more than one woman has told me “I don’t have any female friends because I’M a woman and I know how vicious we are to each other.”

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    165 Desiderius wrote:

    Idiocracy would be a good cautionary tale to keep in mind to guide that development.

    OK, found it: Idiocracy (2006)

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    177 Dogsquat wrote:

    Imagine the mortality rate of strep throat climbing to 2%, or urinary tract infections killing you 10% of the time, and 20% of the time you end up on dialysis.  Imagine an HIV virus as communicable as measles.

    You are sweet.

     

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    186 Susan Walsh wrote:

    Supposedly, we are not as interested in sexual variety, but prefer sex with a favored male. Assuming that is who we’re in a relationship with, sex should be a high female priority.

    Hmm, “should be” does not imply that it is.

    If promiscuous women are the only ones expressing desire, […], then it sounds like there is no “higher” love anywhere.…

    You said it.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    199 Sassy6519 wrote:

    If you want to think that way about women, fine. If women are only useful for sex, then you, as a man, are worth nothing more to women than your wallet. If you are broke/poor, then you are SOL my friend.

    SOL = shit out of luck ?

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Kari,

      Did you see that you are immortalized on my new Glossary page? I’ll add SOL!

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    199 Sassy6519 wrote:

    Thank you Jeremy for that truly riveting tangent you just went on.

    Jeremy ?

     

    I think that I missed something…

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    200 Byron wrote:

    That was actually Burt Lancaster’s ‘O’ face.

    That Burt Lancaster ?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    215 Susan Walsh wrote:

    Did you see that you are immortalized on my new Glossary page?

    This page? I did not noticed it yet.

     

     

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Kari,

    That was actually Burt Lancaster’s ‘O’ face.

    - That Burt Lancaster ?

     

    I was only joking about it being Burt Lancaster’s face of arrival – it does look like him though. Dogsquat will know for sure.

     

     

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    217 Byron wrote:

    I was only joking about it being Burt Lancaster’s face of arrival – it does look like him though. Dogsquat will know for sure.

    TinEye gives 69 matches for gravatar.com picture.

    I asked

    @ 71 Dogsquat, you lost on chess ?

    because I see chess pieces on many of these matches.

    These matches are mostly uploads

    And so on…

    It is difficult to found original picture from these matches.

  • Pingback: The Shipfitter’s Wife | flirtyintrovert

  • Crystal

    I think I lost him. Cos I was having some bad time and had bad mood. I was emotional and mean.
    I don’t think this will work for him anymore.

    How can I get him back?
    Any article?

  • Holly

    I’m really grateful for the time and insight written on this article. I want to be happy and successful with men so I’ll do whatever it takes to improve my insight into men’s behaviour.

    It’s nice to hear from a man’s point what men want and need a men are wired up completely differently to women.

    I enjoyed the work written in this article :-)