I’m officially calling a truce, or at least a time out, in the Battle of the Sexes.
Today in the Comments, Valentin made a recommendation that is a variation on something a lot of men have shared here.
Listen women: if there’s one thing you’d like it’s a man that’s romantic and passionate. In other words a confident guy that really goes for you and shows it. Here’s a shocker: we like the exact same from women.
Of course, it shouldn’t be a shocker, but it kinda is. Why wouldn’t guys like to be desired, appreciated, and courted? We ask so much of men – pursue me, risk my rejection, prove your long-term interest. In our minds, we think we can offer sex in return – the timeless exchange of sex for resources – and our job is done.
The Last Psychiatrist in his rebuke to Lori Gottlieb’s book about settling, said:
You want something uplifting, so here you go: you can never have a good relationship with anyone when your focus is the relationship. There’s a human being there who existed well before you got to them, and they weren’t built for you or your needs or your parents or your future dreams as an actor. If you want to be happy with someone then your body and mind have to instinctively adapt to their happiness. If you’re not ready for this kind of sacrifice, then you’re simply not ready.
Wait a minute, you mean this doesn’t have to be trench warfare? Why do we like someone? Is it so that we can get something, or give something? Most of the women I know who really want a relationship talk about sharing intimacy, giving it and having it be well received. They want to find a man who will let them love him. They feel certain that if a guy would give them a chance, they could prove that they’d be a wonderful girlfriend.
How come guys are not getting that message? Is it because women are not successfully communicating it?
1. In today’s SMP a woman who “really goes for you and shows it” is 9 times out of 10 a woman who will be going home with you at the end of the night. Women understand, rightly or wrongly, that aggressive communication of desire is the most important female behavior in the hookup toolkit, and therefore reserved for the promiscuous girl.
A woman’s direct confession that she thinks a man is hot is likely to get her pushed up against the back wall for some serious making out, at the very least. I believe this has led women who wish to avoid this kind of misunderstanding to become rather reticent about expressing attraction, for fear of initiating an escalation they don’t want.
2. Because women erroneously perceive that all guys would prefer a hookup to a relationship, they carefully avoid any behavior that might telegraph a tendency for them to become a Stage 5 Clinger. They play it cool to save face, and maximize their appeal.
3. Because many of the girls who get a lot of male attention are not the BFF collaborative type – in other words, they’re bitches – women believe that men want women who play hard to get. We know however, that men want women who are hard to get for everyone else, but not for them.
4. Women have not transitioned to gender equity in dating. They are loathe to relinquish a system in which the male takes all, or at least most of, the risk.
What are some of the most effective ways that you can express a romantic and passionate interest in a man?
1. Let him know that you find him sexually desirable.
Jesus Mahoney addressed this brilliantly in a recent conversation with a woman about how to communicate what she wants in a man:
Strong and intelligent are good qualities, but I think above all, men want the women they’re with to be sexually attracted to them. So, if you feel like intelligence makes a man sexually desirable, then great. Show him. If you feel like intelligence makes a man’s company simply “interesting” or something, then you can bet he is not going to feel secure in the relationship. Friendship is a great part of a relationship, but if you’re not tingling for him, then the man is going to know it and be unhappy.
…Generally women are sexually attracted to men of achievement and action…[Men] don’t want to be chosen because you feel like they’re good, decent people. Even the good, decent men don’t want that. They want you to want them because they’re sexually exciting.
Byron also shared a key insight into male psychology and sexuality:
I was once asked what was the most important thing I looked for in a relationship & I said ‘bottomless desire’…
Many men’s deepest need is to feel desired to the extent that they feel desire for the woman they fall in love with. Because men, as a rule, feel sexual desire much more acutely than women, their experience of that need being met is very rare.
Men don’t fantasize about a handsome prince & a big wedding & a high-status steadfast provider for their children. But they do dream about a woman they will burn with in mutual desire for all eternity.
2. Provide real, nurturing affection and physical contact.
Athol Kay during his Girl Game series, wrote Touch is Love:
Most men are never routinely touched by anyone other than during handshakes, doctor visits or getting punched – playfully or otherwise. Even hugs from your mom tend to vanish at some point midway through childhood.
The other way men get physically touched is through sex. Half the reason men automatically think that getting touched by a woman is a direct line to the bedroom, is that all too often that’s the only time they get physically touched. A decent part of the reason men want sex is simply to get physically touched.
When a girl flirting with you does that playful slapping thing on your arm or shoulder, it’s powerful, almost electric sensation for most men. Instant attention getter; for a lonely guy it’s pure Kryptonite.
So touch him. Do the arm slap thing. Rub his back a little. Cuddle. Kiss. Do whatever incidental touch you can.
3. Understand that men prize loyalty and faithfulness.
David Buss wrote about fidelity in The Evolution of Desire:
For American men, faithfulness and sexual loyalty are the most important of 67 desirability traits.
“Men worldwide want physically attractive, young, and sexually loyal wives who will remain faithful to them until death.”
These preferences are universal across all cultures and absent in none.
Reader Acksiom, channeling our recent lively discussions here, suggested that men seek sexual intimacy sooner rather than later as proof of devotion. This dovetails with men saying that they often feel the need to press for early sex to test a woman’s real level of attraction and interest. His comment is interesting food for thought.
What do men really want? Devotion. Therefore, if women want a man to continue to consider them as a potential mate without displaying their devotion to him through sexual intimacy, they will have to keep his interest by displaying their devotion to him through other behaviors.
In short, if you can’t keep men interested in being around you without being sexually intimate with them, the problem is not with the men.
Finally, Mike recently offered some advice to a female reader about handling a boyfriend’s potential discomfort with her sexual history.
My advice is, if he’s not making a big deal of it, you should avoid the topic entirely. Raising it repeatedly or reminding him may cause it to turn into a big deal, or create insecurity in him.
The best way to avoid that is to show him he is your sex god, and if he isn’t yet, guide him subtly but enthusiastically until he is.
4. Communicate that you appreciate, admire and respect him.
The Rawness wrote this in his post about how to be the perfect woman:
Even the men who appear the strongest secretly have a fragile ego. One of the biggest secrets men have is how delicate our egos are. If you publicly build up your man’s ego, whether in front of his friends, family or even total strangers, he will think you’re the most wonderful woman in the world. Yet feminism and the media has given woman some strange mental block about this, as if doing so is some admission of weakness on their part.
){kind=link}
{ 219 comments… read them below or add one }
1 2 »
Susan,
A lot of your advice (including this one) is useful for the relationship stage of the SMP. But, a lot of the inefficiencies occur before the relationship stage. I just don’t see how this advice is applicable for establishing the relationship.
For guys, the SMP is too tilted against traditional dating. It’s much, much easier to get a relationship if we’ve hooked up with the girl than if were to date and “get to know each other”.
The traditional dating system requires guys to take all the risk and bear all the uncertainty. For example,
Dennis Prager:
Men want to be admired.
Women want a man they can admire.
Women want to be cherished.
Men want a woman they can cherish and protect and make her feel safe.
Integrity and strength.
Strength without integrity is machismo.
Integrity without strength is a nice milquetoast.
Men can be deceived by beauty.
Women can be deceived by strength.
@HUS,
I guess now we are directing our energies towards solutions, rather than highlighting the problem.
I will be honest here, the last post was quite taxing.
@Fenix, I think traditional dating is the correct approach for a woman who wants a longer term relationship. The problem is women haven’t adapted to the new environment and it is up to men to redefine what it means for dating.
Men should not be taking all the risks. If he is, he won’t be attracting her anyways. I think men should spend as little money as possible in the initial few dates.
The gaunlet that you’re experiencing won’t go away. What do you expect? Dating is designed to screen you out like a job interview. On the other hand, hooking up isn’t so easy for the men who aren’t players. It is still a numbers game, which offers instant gratification if you succeed. If you have success, the LTR might still not happen. How would you know if she will take your call after hooking up?
The thing is, the average guy is so starved for attention and affection, that a girl doesn’t have to do half those things to keep him around. This will be useful for the girls with guys that aren’t betas mostly. Fenix makes some good points, the process of getting to a relationship tends to be way more painful.
This is actually very good advice. All of it.
I remember the most erotic`thing a woman has every said to me: “GudEnuf, I know that now is not the right time. But when the time comes, I can’t wait to get pregnant with you.”
Looking back, I can see this compliment touches on #1 (she wants to have sex with me), #3 (she plans to be faithful) and #4 (she thinks I would make a good father). If you can find a way to incorporate #2 you would have the perfect dirty talk.
Men and women not actually that different from each other, news at eleven.
As I read this post I’m struck by the sense that every major long term relationship (those that lasted over 3 years) I had multiple elements in common reflected in this post! A woman who were to command these elements with a sense of real agency, would fair vastly better than her sisters out there in the SMP. I for one would be seeing this measure of behavior as a massive differentiator. It would be hard not to notice and respond in kind…
Amaing advice.
Especially the touching thing. Never realised how tough it was until my current LTR went LDR which is now almost over.
One problem, the advice from Mike.
Tell him straight up. Either a) you don’t and he finds out later. Stressful end of relationship scenario ensues. b) you tell and he takes off, c) you tell and he doesn’t care.
Of course there is the option of don’t tell and he never finds out. At which point your probably not going to tell him the kid isn’t his either…
Totally agree with this post, especially the showing affection part. One of the big reasons guys push for sex early on in dating is that there is often no other way we can gauge a girl’s real interest. Men aren’t as bad as you girls think about gauging a girl’s signals, but for all of us sex/physical intimacy is hit-me-on-the-head-with-a-bat obvious, so that’s how we test it. It’s our version of the girl “testing” by conversation/shit tests/etc.
I go on a lot of dates (and also hu with random girls and have occasional ONS) looking for a potential GF. Many times I’ll have 2-3 dates with a girl and then there will be nothing. There will be no further dates, and there will have been no physical intimacy. At that point, how am I supposed to know whether or not I’ve just been P&D’ed (not for sex, for free dinners/drinks)? The girl I’m currently seeing does something very different which honestly makes a HUGE difference. After each time she accepts an invitation for a date, she follows up by asking about something in my life. For instance, I told her on date number 2 that a friend of mine was coming into town for the weekend. After accepting date 3, she immediately inquired as to how his visit had been and what we’d done. Something like that shows me that she’s actually paying attention to me, and that she is interested in me beyond just our dates. It makes all the difference in the world, and frankly makes me far more willing to hold off on sex if that’s what she wants.
Most likely it’s just for an ego-boost or backup (she’s dating someone she likes more but might not like her)….
@Fenix
Honestly, I can’t blame them too much for that. I’m often seeing a few girls at once so I can keep my options open, and often I end it after 2-3 dates. However, I still take these girls out and am friendly with them, whereas I’m not getting sex from the girls who are doing the same with me.
Some great stuff here.
I hate to inject any sort of negativity, but I feel compelled to add a note regarding Byron’s quoted commentary:
I have never, in any of the relationships I’ve had, felt desired.
Oh, I know at least one woman desired me while we dated. But I knew that because her sister told me. I never heard it from HER, or even got that impression from her body language.
I don’t even know what being desired feels like.
I was willing to take on most of the risk in dating. But that was motivated by my “traditional dating” mindset, which was a recipe for failure (and in that respect, yielded incredibly consistent results).
Eventually, after you’ve dug through the pile for a while and found nothing but coal…you throw the shovel down and walk away.
Love this post, Susan. Great advice!
@Zach: don’t want to be pumped and dumped for free food/drinks? What about a girl not asking for free stuff?
I didn’t go on “dates” in the traditional sense while I was looking. I talked to guys, one-on-one, to find out more about them. I didn’t have dinner, I didn’t get taken to movies, and I didn’t make them spend any money on me.
Dates are expensive, they’re awkward, I don’t like them, but I loved private conversations and to get to know guys. Without the formality of dating, guys couldn’t really apply the rules of dating to me either.
“I’m officially calling a truce, or at least a time out, in the Battle of the Sexes.”
Too bad. Chicks dig fights.
Physical affection is what a Western upbringing typically deprives of men, and women are very reluctant to show it. Men can’t ask for it because they’d appear desperate, and as they say, the hungry don’t get fed.
Physical affection is suppressed in Eastern cultures as well. What are you getting at?
@Susan,
Really awesome advice, great post!
@Anonymous,
Tell him straight up. Either a) you don’t and he finds out later. Stressful end of relationship scenario ensues. b) you tell and he takes off, c) you tell and he doesn’t care.
Of course there is the option of don’t tell and he never finds out. At which point your probably not going to tell him the kid isn’t his either…
If I remember correctly, Mike’s advice was directed at me. I already did tell my BF straight up. The discussion was about whether he secretly still resents my past experiences, having already found out about them. I liked Mike’s advice because it contained something I could actually do in the situation. It wasn’t just “Well your boyfriend probably feels horrible about your past. Ya shouldn’t have messed around, but oops, too late.”
@Fenix
Haha, you changed your spelling and saved yourself two keystrokes.
I hear exactly what you are saying, believe me. However, this post is definitely applicable before a relationship is officially established. I see it as one of the ways that women can indicate strong interest and attraction. None of these strategies make sense at first meeting, but they might prove very useful in that in-between stage before sex, whenever that happens. In addition, even after a couple becomes sexual, I think that women need to understand what men need. We’ve really lost sight of that. Women today were raised to discount male needs and tend to their own. That’s not a recipe for happiness for either sex. Of course, women can and do ignore this kind of advice, and some will have happy relationships I suppose. But I think in general they can make their men much happier by doing these things. I know for certain that this makes a difference in my own marriage. In fact, I know my husband so well that I can tell exactly when a certain kind of encouragement or reinforcement is needed, and I make a point of offering it. Often I can see an immediate positive effect in his mood or outlook.
@LS
Wise words from DP, thanks for sharing that.
I think we all deserve a change of pace.
That’s why I’m on my second glass of Oyster Bay.
Pretty good advice, and reflecting the interests of poth parties, well done.
Only with this part here do I have a slight problem:
4. Communicate that you appreciate, admire and respect him.
These things are very important, yes, but not for the ridiculous reasons given:
Even the men who appear the strongest secretly have a fragile ego. One of the biggest secrets men have is how delicate our egos are. If you publicly build up your man’s ego, whether in front of his friends, family or even total strangers, he will think you’re the most wonderful woman in the world.
The myth of the fragile male ego is still lingering on the battlefield like an old Russian T-34 tank. It’s true that male egos are fragile during the years of puberty, but after that the fragile-ego-battalion is made up excusively by women and gay men.
@Nummm
Perhaps a beta guy doesn’t require all this attention, but wouldn’t he like to have it? Why not encourage women to be as giving as possible, rather than to give to each according to his need? Now that I think about it, I’d say beta guys need this kind of attention more than the lucky few. A player would indeed avoid the woman who might turn into a Stage 5 Clinger. Women need to select men who respond well to this kind of attention, so if she gives it and he is repelled – well then, you have your answer. These strategies are for people who want to give love, and to have it be reciprocated in a confident and healthy way.
I agree that sex isn’t what men need the most, even though both men and women like sex. What they need is appreciation, respect and trust. Some of us women forget to give them that. When we talk about a man pursuing and courting a woman, it’s not about the woman being completely aloof and cold. The women can reciprocate in numerous ways.
@Susan
And I want my Johnny Walker Black Label.
@Anonymous
Sorry for the confusion on that Mike comment – the guy in question does know all the facts, and he says he isn’t bothered. There are no children involved. Mike was just suggesting that indulging in a bit of penis worship was a good strategy, and I agree
@Zach
I find it tragic that you should find this unusual behavior among the women you date. I call this good manners. I’m glad you mentioned it – making a point of remembering what is happening in a guy’s life and following up is a concrete way of expressing interest in him as a person.
“Men and women not actually that different from each other, news at eleven.”
But, the lame-stream media will still hide the truth from us!
@Chris
No wonder you walked away. What a crime that you had to find out from someone else that your gf desired you.
Is this common? That a woman is in a relationship yet expresses no desire? Chris, were these women repressed in some way, religiously or culturally? If anything, we’ve got a problem in this SMP where women are expressing desire too readily, just not to the best men.
“I see it as one of the ways that women can indicate strong interest and attraction. None of these strategies make sense at first meeting, but they might prove very useful in that in-between stage before sex, whenever that happens.”
I agree Susan. I did 1, 3, and 4 during that “in-between stage” with my husband, and 2 after we got physical (though I wasn’t being consciously strategic about it). He loved how much I admired and desired him, and that I told him so.
“Physical affection is suppressed in Eastern cultures as well.”
True that SayWhaat. My mother-in-law is all about hugs, but my own mother? She’s probably the least verbally and physically demonstrative woman I know. I’m glad I didn’t get her attitude toward being affectionate.
@lovelost
You are funny – I am getting to know you bit by bit.
@Susan
I could not say with any certainty if they felt repressed. My guess is no, since two of them cheated on me. One before dumping me, one right after (as in, the same night).
Now, I’m well aware that I’m no alpha hunk or anything. But the only time a woman ever expressed physical desire, was when she tried to steal me away from my girlfriend at the time (whom, I’m sad to say, I never slept with).
And she didn’t do that because it was me. She did it because she hated my girlfriend.
Sort of ruins any potential for me to feel desired, don’t you think?
So, yes, I think it’s pretty common for women to totally skip expressing desire for men they’re in relationships with. Maybe it’s just that “beta paycheck” thing, or maybe they can’t stand the thought of building up a man (perhaps they think doing so diminishes them in some nebulous way).
At this point it’s pretty academic. Going on dates feels like job interviews. I haven’t been on one in over a year now. Feels a lot better.
Eastern cultures have their fuckups but we aren’t living in Eastern cultures.
THIS! All of this post is dead on Susan. I can’t find a single thing to disagree with, and in fact I found myself saying YES more than once while reading it.
I am well aware of the fact that I am an odd bird. But this resonated with me strongly. I can guess that it would be the same for any guy that has similar ideals. If any of the women reading here have ever wondered what a guy like me is looking for, this is it.
“I have never, in any of the relationships I’ve had, felt desired.”
I have, but it is pretty rare. There was my first girlfriend, for a brief period of time (a couple of weeks) between when she finally started getting comfortable with sex and when she began to have serious emotional issues over a family tragedy. There was another girl I dated, where I felt desired for about a week shortly after we started dating – I’m pretty sure the catalyst was an argument I had with her best friend (long, long story). Other than that? Can’t say I’ve really seen a girl show desire effectively.
I will loudly second the point about touch. Here’s an example: last week, I met an international student, a girl from Spain, and asked her out. We met at a coffee shop and talked. She was very willing to pat me on the arm or chest when I made her laugh, hold hands right away, and at one point when she got up to refill her coffee, she came back, stood behind me, and put her hands on my shoulders to ask if I wanted some too. Enjoyed it so much I changed plans on the spot to take us dancing – not that I’m any good, but we had a great time. Touch is apparently just culturally more accepted in Spain.
The touch works. I haven’t felt this attracted to a girl in a long time, and she’s only a bit above average-looking (great accent, though). Had to go home and read Roosh just to remind myself to not get too excited. You can bet that if she wants to wait for sex, I’m willing.
Try it, girls. If Susan is going to be putting up girlgame advice, it deserves to be field-tested.
Wow things are bad if this is what you consider special about dating? Now that you mention it though that is how hubby made a difference with me too. Most of the guys were really…cool about it he was the only one that asked questions and remembered data and shared how his day was at work. Sharing day to day experiences built attraction and intimacy at least for us it seems like it is.
So I’m the only one that was brought in a culture were you hug people in a regular basis?
@Susan
You mean one blog post at time.
@Chris,
I am so sorry. Your stories make me so sad (and angry at the stupid women who cheated on you!). I wish I could tell you that you will find a girl who desires you, one who isn’t a total bitch. But I honestly don’t know. I wish women took more risks in getting themselves in relationships, and I wish they weren’t hell-bent on getting the hot guys they think they “deserve.” If it makes you feel any better, I know some (not a lot, but some) girls who have always been passed over, and I feel certain they would be more than appreciative of guys who treat them right. But they aren’t putting themselves out there, so they’re hard to find. And even if you saw them, you might not think to look at them. All I can say is good luck, and I hope you find someone who truly desires you.
@Olive
I appreciate the sentiment.
Let me make a prefacing statement to my own experience: I’ve never dated above a 6. The top-tier girls are out of my league; I’m not over six foot, independently wealthy and/or a major asshole. So I knew I’d never have a relationship with them.
Besides, I prefer geeky/mousy/intellectual girls. The bookish ones. The ones who often do get “passed over” as you say. Some of us enjoy finding them.
All of the stories from my sordid dating past? They were all girls of that type.
This isn’t a “bitchy attitude because I’m hot” sort of phenomenon. It’s common even among the girls I’ve indicated (I don’t like phrasing a group, any group, as “lower” so I won’t do that).
As I said, it’s academic now. I’m MGTOW. Woman wants to date me? She’d better express serious interest. And even then I’d hesitate.
And as Susan has pointed out in this excellent piece, women are not successfully communicating desire. At least not for most of the men.
Good stuff. All of it.
@Chris,
Yeah, I agree, it’s not a “bitchy attitude because I’m hot” phenomenon, it’s a “bitchy attitude because I’m a girl” phenomenon. Sad that the bookish types are going this way too. I’m wondering if it was a friend thing… like your exes’ friends didn’t approve? That could be not it at all, I dunno. I only ask because my friends tried to get me to break up with my BF last year. They thought it’d be fun if we were all single together (i.e. looking for relationships by hooking up… idiots). They never actually came out and said it, but my guess is they thought my BF wasn’t hot enough. Or he was too clingy. All I know is they had no problem with my other friend and her “hot” boyfriend. In any case, like an idiot, I almost listened to them. It’s hard to resist your female friends (or what some like to call the “female herd” dynamic).
Also, not sure why girls aren’t expressing or communicating desire. Maybe they think they’ll freak a guy out with all of their emotional and feeling stuff.
No, the Walshes are big huggers. Lots of American families are very demonstrative, this probably varies a lot by ethnicity. No one culture prevails. Here in Boston hardly anyone hugs, although young people do as a greeting.
@ Olive, Susan
Thank you for clarifying make more sense now.
I’m in the same boat as Chris, physical desire is rather lacking in all of my relationships excluding the current.
The current girl I told straight up that I wanted more affection and thats what I got.
Avoids the issue of being percieved as beta if you command her to do it.
@ Susan
Nice job with the thread. Points 1-4 all seem to be on target. However, I’d couch number 4 more in terms of a man’s innate need for respect, rather than a fragile ego. Something similar could be said for women and beauty.
Going forward, I think this advice leaves clear that the best counter a woman has to hookup culture is:
Chris,
I’m no therapist or anything, but it seems to me that you need to go out someplace with loads of women and just go balls-out, spitting game left and right, acting like you actually know how to pick up women, until you finally get a girl who will at least make out with you if not fuck your brains out. If she makes out with you, then you need to find a way to parlay that little bit of action into some hot sex, either with her or someone else. Places that serve alcohol are good places to start.
I think that will cure your issues with women.
I think that sort of desire goes beyond just desire for men sexually. A lot of it is just being a decent person, as shown in Zach’s first post about his background where girls showing interest and displaying good manners is considered exceptional.
My first relationship is also my current relationship is also my first LTR, and it’s about to be over as far as I can tell. It feels to me as though I’ve been taking care of her for months, which is what I thought men were supposed to do in the relationship. I pick up the bill way too often for how long we’ve been going out (over a year), I’m basically her cabbie (she has a bike, I have a car, but we’re both going to the same university and there are plenty of other ways for her to see me besides my traveling), and I spend most of my time with her doting on her. Just last night she took over my room to study for a big test, while I stayed in the living room writing a paper. I left to go out to catch up with a friend and was told (not really asked) to bring food back. I did, and when I asked for her to pay me back, she was angry and claimed that I didn’t even say hi or care about how she was doing. I pointed out that she was sprawled on my bed, eating my food, and I just brought her more. This is after months of trying to talk about my frustration.
How I know we’re pretty much done? I found her anger hilarious and couldn’t take it seriously. I think the only reason I’ve been staying with her for so long is because she’s been my first, and we’re insanely close, and I don’t know if I could find someone else like her.
This sort of disparity between who does what in a relationship goes far beyond sexual needs and touching and really extends to just being a good person. Hooking up with someone or finding someone in the short term is all about compatibility and confidence, but I found out (through a small sample size to be sure) that that might not be enough to base a LTR off of.
Does anyone else find that those traits don’t correspond to fulfilling LTRs?
Also, this is why the notion that sexbots will replace women seems pretty silly. Sexbots cannot simulate real desire and respect, Cherry 2000 notwithstanding. Heck, I doubt even hookers can simulate it.
1 combined with 4 would probably do a number on me. Throw in 2 and make me believe 3 and I’d be fighting hard not to put you on a pedestal.
1 and 4 combined are probably the boldest thing a woman could do. Lets say I’m with my friends at a bar and my girlfriend walks in. I give her a friendly greeting and she grabs me a plants a passionate kiss on me in front of my friends. She breaks the kiss and says, “I need you to take me home right now and fuck me like you did last night.” She then begins to drag me out of the bar.
My God, how could I ever resist a girl like that?
Sex seems to be something that women let me do to them or something I get for saying the right thing at the right time. Suffice to say, yeah show me desire.
In short, 1-4… definitely.
My parents are extremely affectionate. Lots of hugging. But I also learned a lot about cuddling from being an animal lover, ie cuddling dogs and cats. A dog will lie with you indefinitely if you continue to scratch behind his ears or rub his back.
The first night I spent at Inspector Climate’s house (WAY before we were having sex), he lay his head in my lap and I played with his hair and rubbed his neck. Later he told me that all the girls he had ever dated had insisted that he do that to them, but not a single one had ever reciprocated!
@HUS
We need to transition from hugLess to more of a hugMore society. This is the best i can come up with now.
A guy doing what she did risks being too keen / creepy / stalkerlike etc. Roissy had a post on this, I believe. Remembering the little things she said is a double-edged sword, and more often than not, the sharper nastier side stares at the guy’s face.
Anaecona, I bet a lot of the guys you dated remembered nearly everything you said, but they didn’t bring that up due to the above. This is a big problem for STEM guys who usually have better than average memory. They can’t help remembering these things but have to hold it back.
The main problem is that a guy only goes on a date with a girl he’s attracted to, while the reverse is uncertain. A girl can go on a date with a guy for a bazillion reason, and she is not necessarily attracted to him. Typically, she’s looking for excuses to reject him as unworthy (hence the shit testing). When a girl brings up things she remembered about him from previous dates, it adds to her value in his eyes, because he’s already attracted to her. When a guy does the same, he faces a problem. If she’s highly attracted to him, he’s in like Flynn. If she is only mildly attracted or less, it will kill her attraction, because he’s recognised as being too keen. The odd for the former is tiny, while the latter is very likely to happen, so naturally guys try to avoid doing that.
Chris
How old are you? 21? Stop this men going their own way to die alone after hating their life-shit. Just stop it. Nature does not favor that line of thought & action and will never reward it. Women love any form of boldness in a guy and it can be conjured up by just about any guy that can master the simple art of not taking anything seriously or personally. Do not worry about what people are thinking of you: because they are NOT thinking of you. That mindset is a dead-end of futility. Just find a woman who is as confused and needy as you are and ask her to go for a ride on your motorcycle to the beach or somewhere. It really is that easy.
You do have a bike, right?
Funny how I was asking for this post as you were writing it.
Sis and friends will be reading…
Heart unbroken momentarily.
Susan – You are way too nice to the guys. Yes DESIRE. Plenty of desire and it’s surely what men crave. Key word in that sentence: MEN. Not whiny little boys who throw hissy fits when they don’t get their way [in the love dept.]. It works both ways. A woman is designed to surrender and to only show true desire towards a man who genuinely LOVES her. So many of these men that comment on your posts are anything but LOVING. They’re argumentative brats that lean toward blame-shifting women for all their romantic woes. Give me a break. Men are naturally designed to be sensitive to a woman’s desire. A woman’s desire and a man’s worthiness both play into each other. More of one, more of the other. One danger I see in this post is that GIRLS [I'm talking about non-mature women here] will read your post’s suggestions and use it as an excuse to exercise their sexual impulses rather than act out true desire. It’s shaky ground that we walk on. Women have to know themselves well enough and be grounded and centered to know the difference between a desperate urge to hook up with a guy to “keep” him and knowing without a shadow of a doubt that what she feels for the man is strong and absolute heady DESIRE. I believe it is the latter that men crave more than anything. My only wish is that Men will make it easy for us women to demonstrate this true desire towards them. and please don’t call us whores for doing so.
Yeah I’m starting to guess that men in this culture learn to repress a lot of things in order to keep in the game. Its a shame indeed.
@deidre
OMG are you married?
Later he told me that all the girls he had ever dated had insisted that he do that to them, but not a single one had ever reciprocated!
Whaaa?? Really?? Well geez, no wonder some guys expect sex from women to prove they’re actually interested. Maybe it’s because otherwise, they don’t get anything at all. Guys like to be touched and cuddled too. I thought all girls knew that, but apparently not.
@Ceer
Well, I’ve written numerous posts about 1 and 2. Re 3, how do you think women should show respect for men? As for socializing with men as individuals, do you mean dating?
By the way Susan, I wrote this over 2 years ago:
http://www.rosehope.com/how-to-love-men/
I read over it now, and I think it needs a ton of updating! Especially with the 4 fine points from this post.
It’s kind of surprising to me to hear that lots of men don’t feel desired or haven’t felt desired by the women in their lives during the past or present. I think that’s a shame. Obviously, those women need to step up their game.
I think the best way a woman can convey desire for a man before they have sex is by being sensual, not sexual. Being sexual revs up the engines for both people too much and too quickly. Being sensual, however, starts a pleasant slow burn that can’t be easily put out. Here are some ways, tried and tested by yours truly, that women can convey desire before having sex with a potential guy.
1. Emit seductive eye contact. Eyes are the windows to the soul indeed. Look at a guy like he is the tastiest morsel on the planet. This type of eye contact should be hot enough to heat both the man and woman up. It heightens the anticipation and I’ve caused men to stop mid stride with this type of eye contact.
2. Hand feed him something. I’ve found this works well. Take a small piece of food, preferably fruit or candy, and feed it to him, allowing your fingers to linger against his mouth. Let him feed you to, all the while giving him the eye contact described above.
3. Be honest about what parts of his body you find attractive. Don’t be afraid to tell him “You have a great butt” or “You sure do know how to wear that shirt”. Let him know that you find him physically desirable. One of my favorite things to do with my ex (sorry to keep bringing him up) was compliment him on how he smelled. A simple “You smell fantastic/delicious” was enough to get him going.
4. As it has already been stated, don’t be afraid to engage in light touching. Hold his hand, playfully slap his shoulder/leg, touch his shoulder, anything. Just touch him.
Also, not sure if you ever read my very sappy but heartfelt love letter to my husband, from 3 years ago:
http://www.rosehope.com/love/
Every time I read it I am reminded again of just how awesome he is. I think it sufficiently shows my appreciation, admiration and respect for him.
@Rum
Pardon me, I had to pick myself up off the floor from laughing there. It amuses me greatly that you think I’m some life-hating 21-year-old.
As I’ve mentioned in past discussions, I’m 32. No, I don’t own a motorcycle – I don’t want or need one. If I needed a bike to get a woman’s attention, I wouldn’t want that woman.
As I’ve also mentioned in past discussions, my MGTOW status is not due solely to past dating experiences. But that detracts from the message here, so I won’t go into it.
Ridicule me all you want. It’s nothing new. My choices are my own.
@Michael of Charlotte
There’s a story I’ve told here before but not in a while so it will probably be new to most of you. A while back a college frat guy commented that all the guys were under pretty intense peer pressure not to get into a relationship. One brother fell hard for a girl and made her his gf, but he took a lot of grief for it. One day they’re at a party and the guys are talking in a group. The gf came up, put her hand on her bf’s junk, and told him she wanted to go upstairs. They left, and the guys just stood there in silence for a moment. Then one said, “Respect.” Another said “Word.” and that was the last time the guy ever caught grief.
I was winging it – I knew I had to change up the tone/mood here.
My view is this is over-thinking. Women should be: A. Young. This can’t be stressed enough. B. Be Pretty (see A). C. Be nice.
And yes, A and B beat C. Yes the above advice is good on the margins, but does not address the fundamentals. Most women want an Alpha, and let’s be realistic, they’re in competition with many other women. The man they want, the one they ACTUALLY desire, well he has many other women wanting him. That’s why he’s Alpha.
So I’d say, stay in great shape. Have a killer body. Limit your sex partners (the experienced Alpha can ALWAYS tell and your rivals will). And yes be nice. You can’t stay young forever, so remember you’re at a limited time auction. Don’t stay on the sidelines too long. This really is not that complicated. [Avoid plastic surgery, that's fake and fake breasts are off-putting to most guys. Just remember an average-pretty 22 year old beats Jennifer Aniston as she is today.]
“I was winging it – I knew I had to change up the tone/mood here.”
What you need here at HUS are more Field Reports from girls (or guys) going out applying what they’ve learned from this place. All you’ve got so far are a few girls whining that blah blah blah don’t work for them. If guys do that on any “community” blog, they’d get told to write up some detailed FRs so others could tell them what’s going wrong.
There’s only so much you can do with theorizing and poo flinging, I mean bitching at each other. What matters in the end that each of us goes out and applies what we’ve learned to change our life the way we want it to be.
I tell my stooges (boys I train or mentor) to keep training logs for that reason. I keep a few myself.
The girls in your focus group: what are they actively doing about their love life?
I call foul on the whole “fragile male ego” lie.
There is nothing more fragile about male egos than female egos.
Women are the ones hiding behind endless social prostheses like makeup, heels, and push-up bras.
Women are the ones that surround themselves with chick-mags that endlessly proclaim how fabulous their lives are.
If women had to put up with the blows to ones self-esteem that is part and parcel of MOST mens’ daily lives, they would be lock themselves in a room with a five-gallon bucket of Ben and Jerry’s and never come out.
Men on average, are probably far psychologically tougher than women.
And as exhibit “A” in my argument, I will point out how for most women it is absolutely crucial that they never “feel judged”.
Men never say that. Fear of judgment is empirical proof of the fragile ego.
I have got a important information about What Men Need From Women. Can you tell me What women Need From men?
Thanks for your posting.
This list sounds superb. I’ve only been told by a handful of girls that they found me attractive (including, fortunately, one last week). Not that they “liked” me, but that there was an actual, physical attraction. Each time, it moved me to more alpha-ish action since it gave me that all-important confidence. Don’t lie about it, but don’t be afraid to say it if you feel it.
The physical contact aspect is also quite important, but it can backfire. I’ve been confused in the past by several girls who enjoyed physically flirting with no actual attraction. Some people just may be more touchy-feely than others and it’s hard to tell if she likes you or if she’s leading you on before her Ukrainian athlete boyfriend shows up. Don’t hesitate to use physical affection if you want to signal attraction, but it needs to be complemented by other actions as well for it to work.
for most women it is absolutely crucial that they never “feel judged”
then its merely a matter of not engaging in judgement-worthy behaviors and “activities”
Fenix, why are you still fucking around asking for phone numbers?
Skip right to the second date – you’ve got a fifty-fifty shot.
great post Tia. well said.
i’d link you, but i’m sure the last thing you need is more traffic.
it’s really odd to me that so few women realize what you’re told them. us men really AREN’T that difficult. and 98% of us don’t require that much maintenance. just provided general up keep and we’re good to go.
if i ever post any “girl game” stuff, this will be a part of it. on second thought……
pinged.
@108spirits
They’re trying a bunch of different approaches, some work better than others. Some are in relationships. Some are dealing with LDR. Some implement my advice, some don’t. Now that they’ve all graduated and scattered somewhat, I have less of a pipeline, though many do keep in touch.
I think you’re right about FRs though. They would be very helpful. I see two impediments to receiving many here from women:
1. I actually get a lot of them offline. Sometimes I share them in posts. Unfortunately, whether accurately or not, feedback from the men is often of the “Solipsism! Projection! Hamster wheeling!” variety rather than concrete feedback on specific steps taken.
2. The whole FR concept is very male. I am not aware of any forums where women share them. Women are much more likely to go in for a general advice column, but it’s generally not an analytical exercise. I’m not sure that it can work with a coed audience.
Just to be clear, that quote is from Ricky Raw, a male blogger very popular in Game circles.
So Susan might we start some sort of glossary for HUS? Like a permalink somehwere where we keep adding and people can go and look there? Right now I’m lost at: LDR and FR.
^ Ditto, Valentin. It’s fairly hard to keep up sometimes; particularly with the economics language. =.=
Missing another 100 or so but it’s a start:
FR – Field Report
LDR – Long Distance Relationship
LTR – Long Term Relationship
STR – Short Term Relationship
AMOG – Alpha Male Other Guy
P&D – Pump and Dump
CC – Cock Carousel
DTF – Down To Fuck
SNL – Same Night Lay
ASD – Anti Slut Defence
HB8 – Hot Body 8
L1 – Ladder 1
L2 – Ladder 2
SMV – Sexual Market Value
SMP – Sexual Market Place
MMV – Marriage Market Value
SAHM – Stay At Home Mum
STEM – Science, Engineering, Tech and Maths.
LOL – Amanda Marcotte
R/B – Risk/Benefit
OC – Opportunity Cost
ROI – Return On Investment
CPL – Cost Per Lay
MGTOW – Men Going Their Own Way
GG – Going Ghost
MRM – Men’s Rights Movement
MRA – Men’s Rights Activist
InCel – Involuntarily Celibate
PUA – Pick Up Artist
SP/N – Sex Positive/Negative
T – Testosterone
SoCon – Social Conservative
AWALT – All Women Are Like That
NAWALT – Not All Women Are Like That
MWALT – Most Women Are Like That
AMALT – All Men Are Like That
NSBM – No Sex Before Monogamy
Chris,
I didn’t particularly care for the tone of Rum’s post and I don’t think you “need” a motorcycle to get any woman’s attention. However, I do think that Rum has a point. Women (and not just women, btw, but all people) like some fun and excitement. We like people who make our hearts race or make us laugh so hard our sides hurt. We like people who make us think new things. And we like people who get us to stop thinking sometimes and start feeling.
The vast majority of women do NOT require a motorcycle to get their attention. But the vast majority of women DO respond well to a guy who can add some excitement to their lives.
You said you were never the type to go for “hot” women, that you went for shy, studious 6′s. If you’re going for 6′s thinking they don’t want the same sort of excitement and fun that 10′s want, that’s a poor strategy. 6′s want to be swept off their feet with excitement and fun just as much as 10′s. Who doesn’t?
And if you don’t want a woman who expects a bit of fun and excitement from her man, then, idk, maybe you’re doing women a favor by going your own way.
@Isabel
what does FWIW, stands for?
@Isabel
E-estrogen.
@HUS
P-Penis/Poon, take your pick.
FWIW=For what it’s worth
@Lovelost
I think “FWIW” is just a quick way to write “for what it’s worth.”
If not, then I’ve been reading it wrongly for years! Hahahaha!
FWIW = “for what it’s worth”
Lovelost,
That’s how the soulless spell it. It’s actually oestrogen, don’t listen to them.
Lovelost,
That’s how the soulless spell it. It’s actually oestrogen, don’t listen to them.
And you can check my encyclopaedia if you don’t believe us.
Bah.
Nobody can hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.
“And if you don’t want a woman who expects a bit of fun and excitement from her man, then, idk, maybe you’re doing women a favor by going your own way.”
That’s a bit harsh. I don’t know if I’d put it quite that way.
“And if you don’t want a woman who expects a bit of fun and excitement from her man, then, idk, maybe you’re doing yourself a favor by going your own way for now.”
Maybe that’s better.
I get the sense that the MGTOW folks got there through a few ways, most of which are quite valid:
1. Emotional and financial devastation in the divorce meatgrinder, alienation from children as a result
2. Repeated failure in the SMP, being sick and tired of having to jump through others’ hoops just to get a date. As I’ve said in the past, if you have no chance of winning, why even try to play?
3. Victimization through false sex harassment allegations.
MGTOW probably wouldn’t be for me, but I can see how some view it as a viable option. It’s contributing to societal breakdown all around us. It’s a major reason why we still read the stories of women in their mid 30s to late 40s, either never married or divorced, and cannot find new men. Those stories are only picking up in intensity and frequency.
@ Lark:
“You are way too nice to the guys. Yes DESIRE. Plenty of desire and it’s surely what men crave. Key word in that sentence: MEN. Not whiny little boys who throw hissy fits when they don’t get their way [in the love dept.]. It works both ways. A woman is designed to surrender and to only show true desire towards a man who genuinely LOVES her. So many of these men that comment on your posts are anything but LOVING. They’re argumentative brats that lean toward blame-shifting women for all their romantic woes. Give me a break.”
Cool your jets, Lark. A lot of the men who comment here are quite experienced in the relationship department and have been burned about seven ways from Sunday, every day of the week. A lot of the men who comment here have played by the old rules while women have been playing by the new ones for 30 years or more. A lot of us didn’t even know there were new rules until we found the manosphere. There’s a lot of frustration here, and we talk about it openly. This is one place we can have that discussion. There’s plenty of blame to go around, and the dysfunction of this SMP is not all the fault of men.
Calm down.
“fragile male egos,” etc….when a person is dealing with a high-stress situation, especially one that can be dangerous, he needs to keep his emotions under control. This doesn’t mean he doesn’t *have* feelings, but I suspect it’s often interpreted that way.
Most recent…worthwhile reading & viewing
deti,
Sure, I can see men taking a break after being burned. That makes sense.
But I’ve read a number of Chris’ posts and he doesn’t strike me as someone who’s achieved happiness as a result of going his own way. I mean really, if he actually were happy having gone his own way, why would he be following a blog called hooking up smart?
I can see being frustrated about jumping through hoops to get a date. But repeated failure means he needs to change his strategy, not give up. If he were jumping through hoops, my advice would be to cut that shit out. Jumping through hoops is a sure fire way of losing a woman’s respect.
I can understand bitterness and frustration and confusion and all that. What I can’t empathize with is giving up and playing the victim. I’ve read stories of men and women who survived concentration camps and refused to identify as victims. I’ve heard stories of kids who were raped and abused and still refused to play the victim card. I’m supposed to feel sorry for a guy who gives up because he doesn’t know how to find and keep a girlfriend? Not happening.
Every victim has “reasons” for remaining a victim. But if Chris were willing to do the work, he could find and keep a woman. If Chris were willing to do the work, he could be getting laid by a different woman every week. If Chris were willing to put in the time and effort, he could have whatever the hell he wanted.
Unless you’re George Clooney, pick two.
@Valentin
Sure, why not. Once I get the forum up, we can have a sticky post there, but for now I’ll make a note to put one up as a page.
@Isabel
What a contribution! Thanks for that glossary – that is an awesome foundation. Will work on putting that up, and people can suggest additions in the comment form at the bottom of the page.
P.S. Love the LOL def.
Holy Moses, thank Isabel I just saved that as a .doc for future reference. Much appreciated that you helped me out writing all that
@Bellita & @Isabel
Estrogen is correct, see the link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/68004967
@lovelost
I don’t know about Isabel, but my comment about oestrogen and encyclopaedias was focussing on the humour of it all.
@Bellita,
1. Show him you find him sexually desirable.
2. Nurture him, show affection and give him physical contact.
3. Show him loyalty and fidelity.
4. Communicate admiration and respect.
All these things are good advice not just for women seeking a man.
This is proper care and feeding of a husband.
I guarantee that any husband who had his wife doing these things for him would be the happiest man on earth. Hands down.
@ Susan
RE: FR- while the whole concept does tend to be very male, it’s because most of the institutions that developed them were solely male based and followed accepted masculine culture…
in the military they’re ‘after action’ reports. On the commercial side I’ve seen them named differently and implemented in a number of ways, that wasn’t solely within a male culture. The better organizations of the world tend to do something similar to improve performance.
The best tend to be coaching/mentoring programs, the worse opportunities to others to flame and bash. Don’t get hung up on the term, but recognize a great learning tool and concept.
While I can understand and appreciate your concern regarding a co-ed audience, especially where the male responses have been what they were (right or wrong) they are opinions proffered and they’re open for the author to take or leave as wanted. In the community the FR can and have become flaming exercise, which moderators need to moderate, but they are HIGHLY successful for an individual to see themselves reflected in their own writings and an opportunity to get others to comment and leave thoughts and suggestions. It’s not always easy to hear and often not quite nice. Often though someone reaches out with a bit of insight that will change your approach or understanding a bit that makes a difference.
In those occasions it tends to open up a dialog. That dialog can lead to many places. Regularly friendships and mentoring starts to occur, usually to the betterment of both parties.
Combined with active journaling and you have two incredible tools at your disposal for recall, reflection and analyzing.
I know. My life was transformed this way.
Marvelous, marvelous post Susan, but it doesn’t touch on the primary problem.
Most men will never be desired by a desirable woman in this way. I can’t begin to count the times I’ve read a post by an unremarkable girl that started like this:
I only find about one guy in a hundred sexually attractive.
Well, that wouldn’t be so bad if it were different men that provoked that desire for different women. After all, you only need one man, but in general (and life is far too short to either disregard or universalize generalizations) any man who knows where his rung is in the manerarchy of his social circle can predict how much female attention he is likely to solicit.
When i was about to marry Mrs. Mule, I was advised to lay in a good quantity of this stuff:
I’m happy to say we have yet to purchase the first tube. THAT’s what men want from women.
Oops
@Sock!
Thanks, you’ve given me something to think about. I do love the idea of people supporting one another with insights and suggestions that may have eluded the OP.
Ladies,
Just learn how to give compliments to men. We don’t get much of those as well as not geting physical touch. Do both and you’re in. Oh. and don’t stop even after you’re married.
@deti , I appreciate the step-in at #87. Been a busy workweek!
It’s interesting how some would assume I’m not interested in fun or excitement. Or that I’m only MGTOW due to SMP failures. I’m still a human being; I love having fun! One of my favorite things to do is get some friends together for games and jokes. Even participated in a stand-up open mic night once. I flubbed, but still had a blast.
(Not to affront Jesus M. here. I think he’s a bit off the mark on me, but that’s only based on the few words I’ve given here. His HUS commentary is well thought out and a good read.)
As I’ve mentioned before, I am looking into Game to see what benefits I can derive. My being here at HUS is part of that effort. Obviously I’m not here all the time, nor am I studying Game 24/7. More important things to do.
I’m not a victim (though I’ve witnessed some horrific treatment of men close to me). Nor will I be dismissed as one. What I am is a man who’s made a choice. And I’m not alone.
Anyway, back to topic. MuleChewingBriars makes a very good point at #100. Sassy touched on it in a previous discussion too. If a woman doesn’t find a man sexually attractive, everything afterward (even if they try to communicate desire) will ring hollow.
I wonder; would communicating desire in this fashion help to STIR desire in some way? A form of self-encouragement if the woman isn’t sure?
Just asking as a thought experiment. If this discussion’s done, it’s done.
@Anacaona
“So I’m the only one that was brought in a culture were you hug people in a regular basis?”
No, I was brought up in an Old Country style huge family, with lots of cousins, aunts, uncles, and the whole nine yards. Lots of hugs and physical affection. Problem is, I was an introvert, so I needed lots of late night walks alone and solo hikes to recharge the mental batteries before the next family outing :-)
This blog entry gets my full endorsement. I was thinking seriously about what a list of what I want would look like, and you beat me to many of the key points. Haven’t had time to read all responses here, or to the other new posts, but I’ll try to get around to it tomorrow.
@Susan #62,
Yep, and I guarantee that guy was one of, if not the new Alpha.
Splendid post, a lovely thing to see. Way to roll with the punches after the heaviosity that befell the last one. Well done Susan.
I meant everyone not just family, in my culture hugging people you just meet is completely acceptable. Lots of physical contact everywhere you look and you don’t.
Chris,
With all due respect, you sound a bit like you’ve adopted a victim mentality. These are some highlights from what you’ve said over the past week or so:
A lot of talk about how terrible women are. A lot of talk about what women do or don’t do to you or to men you know. All negativity.
If this is your frame, is it any wonder you’ve had such terrible experiences with women?
@Chris
I wonder; would communicating desire in this fashion help to STIR desire in some way? A form of self-encouragement if the woman isn’t sure?i
I’ve never thought about it, but actually, I’d say the answer is yes. If you go into a relationship telling yourself “I’m only here right now because I can’t get anything better,” you’re not going to be very attracted to your partner, are you? On the flip side, if you are determined to love someone and remain faithful, you tell yourself and your SO about how attractive you find him, until you actually convince yourself. That probably sounds like lying to yourself, but bare with me.
I’m forever using my relationship as an example (at the risk of getting burned lol), but I think it’s once again relevant here. For a long time, I was determined to find a small, dark-haired guy (I’m less than 5 feet tall, so that explains the whole liking smaller guys thing). Anyway, when I first met my current BF, I was like wait…. this dude is blonde, and he’s 6’3″…. what the hell am I doing?? At that point I had two choices: decide he wasn’t my type, or go for it and build attraction. That probably sounds outrageous to a guy, especially the whole building attraction thing, but I went for option 2 and I am quite happily in love these days (AND sexually attracted, an important part of any relationship).
The important point, particularly for girls, is that sexual attraction isn’t just about first impressions (not sure I can say the same for guys though). And if you’re sticking to a specific prototype, which is what many girls do, you might be missing out. Of course, people make their own choices. I can only share my own experience.
Women are very susceptible to building attraction over time. Obviously, one doesn’t want to spend time chasing a spark that will forever elude you, but I do encourage women to keep an open mind and see where things go. I have definitely been surprised at times by developing a crush on someone I had initially not been attracted to.
Also @Chris,
You probably don’t want to hear this from me, especially because I’m not a guy. But I do think it’s worth mentioning, particularly since it sort of relates to what I just wrote.
In light of what JM just posted, I got to thinking about the stories we tell ourselves and how they affect our interactions. For me, being stuck on one repeating tape of “this is what I want, this is what I want,” could’ve kept me from taking advantage of a great opportunity to meet a wonderful guy and fall in love.
For MGTOW, it’s different but somehow related, at least in my eyes. It’s the same concept of playing a tape inside your head, until you get in a funk that might cause you to miss out if a fantastic girl comes your way. I was reading an old message from my BF earlier today; he wrote it before we were dating, and I thought of this conversation as I was rereading it. I won’t post his exact words here, but the general gist was that life is all about taking risks knowing that failure is possible, even likely. I would add that you just have to tell yourself the right story, and then maybe failure won’t be so likely. I think JM and I are saying the same thing, in different words. It’s all about a changed mindset.
I like my men like I like my milk hot white right before going to sleep. But I developed a crush of the size of the moon in a really dark and short guy. I never pursued it because a) married and b) college teacher. But how I enjoyed his classes, all discretely drooling for him. One never knows with the right personality the body agenda might do a rewiring if needed, YMMV.
“P.S. Love the LOL def.”
Yes, thanks for the drink up the nose there, Isabel.
Good one.
This is obviously great stuff. But I see a problem.
-A good portion of women you would sell this to will say, “what kind of MAAAAN needs to be rubbed and have his ego stroked? I don’t want to date a guy who is NEEEEDDY like a little BOY!”
-And another group of women, who think it looks good on paper (just like they say they want a nice guy to treat them well, when they aren’t presented with the options in the flesh) but when it comes time to actually do it their stomachs turn – again gripped by anti-nurturing, cold-male stereotypes.
This all goes back to the general observations of young men in today’s marketplace, that the girls are viciously punishing any sign of what they perceive as weakness, any betatude or signal of invirility or lack of options.
I recall reading a book about male infidelity where a psychiatrist outlined his cases and why men were cheating on their wives. He found in his therapy that active touch and appreciation (and sex) by wives was effective in cooling off a man’s feelings towards an affair. Common sense, right? Sounds like Athol Kay but a lot more expensive.
But a female friend of his (not a patient) responded with a sneer: “the thought that my man needs a bunch of warm fuzzies is…kind of a turn-off.”
Sad times we live in.
“The important point, particularly for girls, is that sexual attraction isn’t just about first impressions (not sure I can say the same for guys though). And if you’re sticking to a specific prototype, which is what many girls do, you might be missing out. Of course, people make their own choices. I can only share my own experience.”
We can’t misunderestimate girl-on-girl peer pressure, either – huge expectations to snag a guy the other girls will approve of, driving you away from “types” you might actually like.
Many many great points in this post. This one in particular struck me:
“Women have not transitioned to gender equity in dating. They are loathe to relinquish a system in which the male takes all, or at least most of, the risk..”
I think there’s a lot of truth in this and I rarely see it mentioned directly. Rejection is tough. Incidentally, this ties into your post from a few days back about men giving up. You get smacked down enough, you’re gonna get discouraged/frustrated.
@Badger,
We can’t misunderestimate girl-on-girl peer pressure, either – huge expectations to snag a guy the other girls will approve of, driving you away from “types” you might actually like.
Yeah that was also a significant part of my dilemma. I knew my friends would look at my BF and be like “Well, glad I’m not dating him.” And if you’ve happened upon some comments I wrote elsewhere, you know the story of my friends trying to get me to dump him a year ago.
Also, believe it or not, a week or so after my BF and I made it official, a mutual guy friend made fun of me for dating someone who “hasn’t had a girlfriend since 8th grade.” I get at least a little sick pleasure from knowing that this particular friend has been miserably single for almost 2 years because he became manipulatively clingy in his last relationship.
Truly a great post, Susan.
El Marques,
But do you disagree with this point?:
“If you publicly build up your man’s ego, whether in front of his friends, family or even total strangers, he will think you’re the most wonderful woman in the world.”
Maybe it’s not do much that a man’s ego is fragile. Maybe it’s that men have the need to feel validated, revelant, to know that he’s needed (hope that made sense).
That’s what I’ve gathered from my experiences. I hope the men on here will let us know if that’s true. It’s important to clear up perpetuated misinformation so that it no longer spreads.
Fragile male ego huh? If you’re not doing those things for your man, what does he need you for? Sex?
Let Chris go his own way. He’s a grown man, he doesn’t need you to tell him what he should do.
“Yeah that was also a significant part of my dilemma. I knew my friends would look at my BF and be like “Well, glad I’m not dating him.” And if you’ve happened upon some comments I wrote elsewhere, you know the story of my friends trying to get me to dump him a year ago.”
My ex’s friends didn’t care for me. I was too geeky and didn’t flash enough cash for their tastes. (Their relationship statuses? Single.) My gf started to make this known to me, and sympathizing with it. I started to think about pulling the trigger, and eventually did.
Renee,
“Maybe it’s not do much that a man’s ego is fragile. Maybe it’s that men have the need to feel validated, revelant, to know that he’s needed (hope that made sense).”
Yeah, I don’t understand why validation and appreciation is synonymous with “fragility.” We (or, women doing the choosing) have redefined normal human needs as “needy” and “unmanly.” Then again, maybe part of this “fragile male ego” is how hard some women punish men for not living up to the Marlboro Man. I think it’s really hard for women to understand how a few bad experiences with women can really screw up a man’s mind – seriously, the most meaningful messages a young man will get about how a man should be are those he gets observing which men women want to be with.
Female friends of my exes either tried to get them to dump me or to steal/fuck me. Go Team Woman!
I’m actually thinking on making a post or several about how to destroy a woman’s herd. If used for good many women that might be interested in serious relationships can get out of toxic circles for it. What many men don’t notice is that the herd usually has a leader, most of the time women are shamed because the highest status female is constantly pushing the agenda if she falls all the others might be a window of chance of actually making a personal choice or find a new herd with less pressure for the beau.
I don’t know if that’s actually possible – that stuff’s pretty hardwired – but I’d love to see you write on it. I think repeatedly (& publicly) addressing it could help to weaken that mindset’s hold, if only a little.
I couldn’t force myself not smiling widely at the title of this post. Haha. That are some thought-provoking advices. You are totally right, it is not enough just offering sex. LOL
I dunno, dude. Depends on the length and type of relationship the girls have, I guess. I doubt this applies for family groups, but I think most groups of non-related women have fairly brittle friendships when compared to men.
Spend some time getting to know the girls. If you’re looking for it, most women will inadvertently reveal some insecurities rather quickly. It’s a good bet that some level of jealousy lies just beneath that insecurity – jealousy of one or more girls in the group that aren’t afflicted with said particular insecurity. That’s your ready made powder keg – just toss a match into it.
Pump up the #2 girl in the group – praise her, validate her especially about non-physical assets she values, and subtly denigrate the #1 girl a few times. This will make the #1 girl feel a bit threatened and insecure, while having the opposite effect on #2. A good camouflage for this is offering “advice” in a one-on-one setting – but calibration dictates.
Then start a rumor about #2 talking shit about and disclosing the secrets of #1. Fan those flames a bit, and the group will end up choosing sides between #1 and #2. There are always unseen (to outsiders) tensions between the girls in a group. Identify them and exacerbate them.
At the very least, they’ll have something other than you to bitch about.
Just an idle thought, anyway.
@Anacaona,
What many men don’t notice is that the herd usually has a leader, most of the time women are shamed because the highest status female is constantly pushing the agenda if she falls all the others might be a window of chance of actually making a personal choice or find a new herd with less pressure for the beau.
THIS. When a leader is pushing her agenda on a group with many “go along, get along” types, it’s impossible for anyone to change the group agenda without a huge fight. Or, in my case, you just leave the group altogether and you no longer have to deal with anyone’s stupid agenda.
I’d argue that because of what women are fed these days (ahemkimkardashian), there aren’t actually very many herds that don’t perpetuate this kind of pressure. But perhaps I’m just jaded since I left my herd under bad circumstances.
Also, I’d add that the leader is often difficult to detect, even for girls who are part of the herd. The loudest, most boisterous person may be seen as the herd leader, but everyone could be deferring to someone who seems more complacent. When a herd has two leaders vying for power… now THAT is just fascinating.
Hmmm, this is interesting. Let me think out loud for a minute. I think you’re right that women view needy as desperately unattractive (as do men). They don’t want to be running damage control to prop up someone’s self-esteem. But that’s not what this post is meant to be about. I’m not suggesting that if women do these things they can shore up the confidence of an otherwise desirable man. I”m suggesting that if they find a man desirable, these are things they can do to improve their odds of getting a favorable response from him. Guys say all the time that they like women who like them. Many guys here have said that if a woman approached them or asked them out, they’d be so surprised and delighted they would definitely say yes.
There’s also the very real appeal of seeing a glimpse of the little boy inside a strong man. Actually, there are few things that delight women more than to see the man they care for reveal that vulnerable part of himself. In small doses.
Those of you who recall my infamous shit test know that it was the overwhelming emotional need that was repellent, even though it was completely justified. Need is perceived as weakness, and women don’t tolerate that in men very well. As you know.
In any case, I’m not addressing that in this post. I envision more of an exchange – a giving in both directions, between two people whose self-esteem is fine.
It’s not herd mentality, it’s more a crab mentality. Either they all advance (i.e. commitment from a suitably high status guy) or they all remain static (i.e girls’ nights out!!111!!!). The medium ground doesn’t materialise until option 1 disappears but I’d say the worst of that behaviour is restricted to the motherbitches. The majority of girls are forced to keep that stuff to a pretty low level because ultimately, it’s delayed social suicide. That said – I know a girl who dumped her boyfriend for not buying her little presents (muffins, charm bracelets, cupcakes etc) every month on the 19th (her actual birth day) because that’s what her best friend was getting from her BF. Oh, and she thinks this song is her life’s anthem. I genuinely don’t understand why she’s so popular with guys smh.
I just realised how shamelessly pro-hypergamy that song is, lol.
Intrasexual female competition is an ugly truth we all need to accept. Best friends will subtly, and sometimes unintentionally, make efforts to sabotage a friend’s relationship when they feel envious. A single woman who wants a relationship is capable of limitless Schadenfreude.
Intrasexual female competition is an ugly truth we all need to accept. Best friends will subtly, and sometimes unintentionally, make efforts to sabotage a friend’s relationship when they feel envious. A single woman who wants a relationship is capable of limitless Schadenfreude.
SO true. And it’s funny, for all of this “I don’t need a man to make me happy” crap, we always come back to women needing men to make them happy.
Also, I just realized both mindsets are terrible, because they assume the man is there to make the woman happy. Someone who is so focused on being happy won’t try to make her guy happy (something I’ve witnessed far too frequently).
“ I”m suggesting that if they find a man desirable, these are things they can do to improve their odds of getting a favorable response from him.”
I’m suggesting that a lot of women, upon receiving this advice, will reply ”my man should just be crazy about me from the word go, I shouldn’t have to mother him like this.” In other words, they’ll find him less desirable by thinking he has emotional needs (only cads lack emotional needs). Obviously I think these women are nuts, callous and absorbed with unreasonable concepts for how men work.
Me too, so let’s make them the spinsters.
Dogsquat,
man, that’s some seriously machiavellian shit right there. I guess that’s what a career in the military will do for you..
All that stuff will work to some degree on individual women, & in individual situations, but it still won’t change the hardwired nature of womankind, & we shouldn’t be expecting it to. Women really care what their friends think of them, & of you, too, in a way men find it hard to really comprehend. I’ve never had a relationship where my friends opinion on the girl i’m with would ever have made any difference to me either way: I know I like this woman, that’s all anyone needs to know, end of story. And I’ve never had any male friends who would feel entitled to offer opinions like that of anyone i’m with anyway, other than expressing happiness that I’ve found someone I like.
The friends of women I’ve been with, on the other hand, have often weighed in with their opinions on me, which the girl herself would sometimes then report back to me(!) as if I would be interested in this fascinating soap-opera viewers survey. o_O
The fact that a gossiping nest of vipers could cause someone in love with me to doubt that love & our relationship is kind of ugly & shocking to me, & ironically, has only ever had the result of making me think more poorly of the woman I was with.
The point is, anyway, that’s just the way of the world: women overall tend to have more of a herd mentality than men – that’s simply how they evolved, & with good reason. There’s no point in us blaming them, you can’t expect them to change their fundamental natures overnight, or even this millenium. But speaking about it can make us aware that it is at least a factor, & that can help diminish some of that regime’s totalitarian might…..
The female group dynamic mentioned is very interesting…
I have never, every spent any length of time with “girly” women. In fact, every single one of my LTRs was with a women that had very, very few female friends. As in, 4 or less. None of them ever had a “girls night out”, and other than the occasional hang-out at someone’s house, never really spent time without at least inviting their guys to come out with them.
I asked every single one of these women why they had so few female friends. Their answer? To paraphrase them all into one answer, “women are bitches!”, They all told me about how they had been stabbed in the back by a supposed friend, or had a friend that was overly bossy with their love lives and whatnot. The only female friends they had, which is no surprise to me now, were other women that were involved in LTRs.
So ladies. It seems to me if you want to have a successful LTR, you either need to:
A. surround yourself with like-minded women that will support your relationship instead of trying to sabotage it.
B. Have a strong enough will to tell your “friends” to bugger off when they try to manipulate you.
“When a ma-an loves a wo-man…”
Ted, I told a story here a while back about one very intelligent, and very sweet, girl I dated back in the day that had only 1 female friend (and, they were losing touch). She said that the reason why she had few female friends is because she was sexist. Girls are emotional, dramatic and prone to doing all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons.
She said that men were not much better, but they tended to be straight-forward and honest about their less than noble ways.
Dogsquat,
thinking further on your (comically) monstrous solution, it strikes me how what most men would find morally repugnant & shamefully manipulative is actually just commonplace female behaviour from about the age of 12 on, n’est-ce pas?
Made me think also of how, once women get to grips with the actual mechanics of Game, how it is actually carried out, they seldom feel as morally outraged & torn as ‘good’ men do about it. It’s female behaviour, damn it!
@Dogsquat, Olive
Mmm it seems that I do have material to talk about. Doggy is right find girl number 1 and the rest is very easy as a woman I had seen the rise and fall of herds more than once, like Olive says sometimes is hard but usually not that difficult whoever they are emulating probably. I will say that I’m usually a wild card I can enter the herd and see what is it and separate myself once they do something really stupid I though there was something wrong with me for not participating in shitty schemes (like trying to destroy the pretiest girl in the class) but I guess that is the masculine part of my brain not buying it, maybe.
@Byron
Is not about destroying a female tendency is more destroying a particular herd so the woman can move on to a new one, a single woman that gets a boyfriend when all her other friends haven’t is in a precarious situation a woman with a boyfriend that makes new friends is probably going to find like minded women in relationships so that will make it easier for the guy in question. I do agree with your suggestion that a woman has to find like minded people but this is again part of the media programing that a woman that leaves her girlfriends over a man is a sexist that set back feminism to the 50′s or whatever crap they try to sell, so giving a man some tools to help her girlfriend to separate from the herd seems sensitive. If anything I would be wary given that part of the reason men in my country can cheat left and right is that there is a lot of social pressure to “not let the other woman win” or “don’t destroy a relationship for a mistake” and whatever crap they are pushing that day, so a seasoned PUA could destroy a good herd to make his girlfriend/wife become part of one that might presure her to keep him around no matter how shitty he treats her. Like Game this is a sword that can be used for good and evil, depending on the guy…decisions decisions…
With great power comes great responsibility.
I think one of the main reasons the bad “herd mentality” of women is so prevalent today has to do with the fact that the media has portrayed so many examples of bad female herds over the past few decades. The examples I can think of off the top of my head would be:
1. Mean Girls
2. Heathers
3. Sex and the City
4. Pretty Little Liars
5. Bring It On
6. The Hills (I loathe this show)
7. The Bad Girls Club
The list goes on and on. The other problem is that many young girls and teenage girls emulate the way these women act because it is perceived as cool or popular. I was a teenager when Mean Girls, The Hills, and Bring It On came out. Almost every girl I knew or talked to watched, loved, and quoted these movies and shows like they were part of the Bible. Lots of the girls I knew growing up did everything in their power to be a part of the “cool kids” group in high school. Men have their hierarchy, but women have cliques, which also operate like hierarchies. There’s always a low hum of competition floating around the female herds that operate this way. Women try to find ways of slowly knocking the queen bee off the throne to take it for herself in these groups.
I’ll agree with a few of the other female posters on here by saying that I have witnessed these behaviors first hand, and it can be a scary thing.
@Isabel
#76
UMOT– Unmarried Man Over Thirty
“Intrasexual female competition is an ugly truth we all need to accept. Best friends will subtly, and sometimes unintentionally, make efforts to sabotage a friend’s relationship when they feel envious. A single woman who wants a relationship is capable of limitless Schadenfreude.”
BINGO! and that is why I keep any potential dates etc on the down low with friends. I know how they are and really could careless what they think about any potentials. Most of them think that I’ve never been on a date because I never bring up my love life (I don’t want the drama and analysis.) I wouldn’t introduce a boyfriend until I was 100 percent sure we were solid and had everything worked out on our terms… I could give a flying duck what my friends think. I have a feeling they would try to sabotage even though I have been the one to encourage many of them to continue with their own relationships during meltdowns (I was the one who rationalized and calmed them down and its sad that I cannot expect the same). I lost a friend to a relationship but I knew that he was what she needed for a future husband.
I just realised how shamelessly pro-hypergamy that song is, lol.
Just listened to it with the lyrics on the screen. Wow, damn straight. Pro-hypergamy along with a little beta bashing in there as well (call too much, clingy).
In one of the threads somewhere, Escoffier made the spot on point about women smashing down their hypergamous instinct. Ultimately, it is very self-destructive and really the source of much unhappiness for many women FOR THEMSELVES. And songs like this are really horrible because essentially they are a celebration and justification for the hypergamous impulse…”I’m bored so you are my next ex”.
There is a parable…and I am paraphrasing and shortening it up here…..but basically it is a poor man and a rich man who is constantly seeking every greater wealth. The poor man says to the rich man that he has something the rich man will NEVER have, and the rich man asks what that is. The poor man replies ENOUGH.
We’ve had countless number of discussions of various things, and ultimately I see two main memes that on the surface level look good to women, but on a deeper level are actually very negative.
Meme 1 – Your twenties are for “fun”, “exploration”, “empowerment”, “liberation”. That all sounds good, but what it is really code for is make yourself easily sexually accessible to men you have no chance of locking down or getting a lifetime commitment from. You get used to living a “rich” lifestyle on a “moderate to poor” income and therefore damage your ability to be content with the moderate lifestyle down the road.
Meme 2 – Never “settle”, you “deserve” the best. Essentially, this leads women to rule out men they could probably be happy partners with in search of the better man, and then the better man after him (the rich man above).
1 2 »
{ 2 trackbacks }