I hope a card like this never falls out of one of my daughter’s books, after everything I’ve tried to tell her.
1) This girl probably has three or four young men desperately trying to get her attention, but she has a bad case of Maya-itis.
2) I have never seen anything quite as acrobatic or as resourceful as the subhamster whose job it is to produce excuses for the poor behavior of a man to whom a woman is attracted.
Oh God, mule… thank you. I was thinking along the same lines (not the specific points but) as you but had no idea how to put it diplomatically. You just made my day.
#1, Many times women don’t pick up. If he calls and you don’t answer, call him back. Don’t make him call again.
#2, Very true. I don’t have much to say to a woman. If I’m calling, she should respect the fact that I’m making an effort.
#3, Very true, see #2.
#4, Sometimes true, sometimes not.
#5, Could be true, but at least call him to confirm if you don’t hear from him within a few days before the date. Don’t do sometime awful like cancelling. Then he will won’t try again.
I agree with the other men here. I am also very sad and very sorry to see that she was in love and it was so painful. It pains me greatly. I am very sad. She was in love.
Dolphin safe tuna anyone?
Sorry Susan, but WTF happened to your site? Were you overrun by the mangina version of the stepford wives?
I sympathize with whomever is the author of this note. I recently reconnected with a guy friend from high school (we’d liked each other, but didn’t know it), who quickly tossed me aside. Back in August I had gone to a local university to check out a few art classes for fun, and recognized his name on a staff roster. I emailed just to say hi, we ended up trading numbers and he asked if I wanted to meet at a coffee shop. I obliged. Since we both have odd schedules, he said he would call back to officially confirm a time as we’d already picked the day.
That was sometime in mid-September — no call. After a week I called him instead, just something silly about our wacky schedules (I work nights, he’s a graduate assistant with different class times each day). Still nothing, and I never called again.
I guess I’m still very disappointed because with my night schedule it’s difficult to meet men, and this looked really promising. Sheesh, all this over a call!
@Lurksy
Thanks for coming out, hope you will again soon. I think the question “Why didn’t he call?” has got to be the most asked question ever among women. I’ve seen countless posts by bloggers attempting to answer it. In the end, it doesn’t matter, it’s not about you. FIDO.
In the end, it doesn’t matter, it’s not about you. FIDO.
Susan, I hardly think personal attacks like that are going to help matters any. She’s not a dog, she’s just a heartbroken girl with appalling handwriting.
Susan, I hardly think personal attacks like that are going to help matters any. She’s not a dog, she’s just a heartbroken girl with appalling handwriting.
You’re teasing me right? That’s another acronym for the glossary:
I’m trying to add as many to that list Isabel started but it’s proving to be a tough job. If we could get some sort of shared document where we can all write…
Also: surely Mrs. Walsh we’re all fucking adults here? We all keep it clean most of the time so I think we can indulge ourselves with a proper swear-word once again eh?
That is funny Susan. Sounds like I wasn’t too far off, just the wrong kind of robot. I was afraid you were going to tell me they were your three new favorite commenters!
I’m assuming this girl is between the ages of 9 and 12. Her handwriting and spelling are atrocious.
If that is the case, there are a multitude of reasons why a guy around that age doesn’t call. Middle school is a pretty rough time for anyone. People that young haven’t even began to learn how to navigate the tricky waters of dating.
Susan, what type of book did this note card fall out of? Perhaps it can give us some context.
My guess is that she has called/texted/whatever. He never got back to her. Now she doesn’t want to appear needy. So whenever she’s anxious and tempted to call, she refers to her index card to set her mind at ease and resist the urge to call again.
My guess is that one or both of them is away at college. Probably him, since people don’t usually take out books from the local libraries when they’re off at school. That’s why she’ll see him in 2 weeks. He’ll be home for Thanksgiving.
LDR. They were dating in high school, decided to make it work even though he was going away to school, and now he’s off doing his own thing while she’s shitting herself thinking she’s losing him (which is probably correct).
Lovelost I haven’t started looking yet but there are simpler methods to find hosting for shared documents. You just go to the link and add or modify, all very simple… if I can just get off my lazy ass
You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.
The scary thing is that what you are saying probably is the case, especially this part:
You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.
If this does happen, that poor girl won’t know what hit her. She might think that everything is A-okay with them because they slept together after reuniting. To have him dump her so soon afterwards won’t be pretty.
You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.
College students say that this is the progression:
There are plenty of reasons for the guy to not call. Too little information to call alpha or beta. Most familiar with game will assume alpha because of the attraction factor. Most not familiar, may assume beta due to lack of a phone call. The girl’s note highlights how much pain an untrained girl can really put herself in by going in way over her head.
I can’t say I feel much sympathy, though. The SMP has basically told me that my own efforts to find a job and attract a girl with love are almost worthless. It will tell her something similar about her pining away. She can learn that or wind up as a cat lady. I have to live in the world our parents left for us. So does she.
LOL when I first read this, I thought it said “because he is going to see me in prison in two weeks” and spent several seconds trying to figure out why and how a note from a girl in prison ended up in a library book.
That’s hilarious – prison! The handwriting is pretty bad…
No way this woman is 9 years old. This is a college aged person, as Jesus said. The card fell out of a novel, as it happens. Rules of Civility, by Amor Towles.
Well Kari I assume by the frequent eloquency and understanding of the topics we discuss that most are. Besides: I just wanted to make that pun you quoted more than anything…
It’s a bit unwarranted to assume that there are four or five men competing for this girl’s attention while she’s fretting over this guy. I’ve certainly had “why won’t he call me back?” moments in which there were no other people competing for my attention. (Because I would have slept with them.) And also about, you know, guys who got their first kiss in their twenties.
Anyway, if he isn’t calling and you’re early in the relationship, he’s dumping you in a non-confrontational way. If he isn’t calling and your relationship is Facebook-official, have a discussion once he gets back about how you missed him and felt unloved and unvalued, ask why he didn’t call and work out a compromise (or break up).
LOL that note is hilarious. If it was written by a college student that’s sad. She seems to have the mental maturity and motor skills of a developmentally-challenged 12-year-old, bodes well for the “leaders of tomorrow”.
All I really have to say is welcome to the man’s world!
We take this crap (and MUCH worse) all the time – even guys I know who are fairly alpha still get return calls/texts a fraction of the time (betas virtually none). And that doesn’t account for pyrotechnic rejections, a vast array of shit tests, LMR, and other infinite stupidity thrown our way. All this, remember, while trying to control a much higher sex drive.
Awhile ago, observing how badly some women take the gentlest of rejection, I became convinced that if the roles were completely reversed, women would have a collective nervous breakdown.
By definition this guy is Alpha. How do I know this? The girl in question would not care to write anything about some beta male who didn’t call her. It would be … sweet relief. I keep that in mind.
I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move. I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.
Went on three dates with a girl (the third being the night after the second because she asked if I wanted to go out again). Making out was involved, along with some very close dancing. After that, I stopped answering her calls and you’d be surprised how far women go to have your attention. Calling over and over and over again everyday and now she wants to see me regularly. But it’s on my terms, and I can move on to a better situation at any time.
But it’s on my terms, and I can move on to a better situation at any time.
Isn’t this the very attitude men hate in women? The brutal rejection when something better comes along? The refusal to return a call when a guy is just trying to “be nice” and reach out to a girl?
Not gonna lie, I’m so glad I’m off the market so I don’t have to worry about guys who would string me along and play stupid “push-pull” games. I don’t know why women are attracted to this shit, it turns me off and if I had other options, I’d be done with a dude like this in seconds. I mean, I guess if it gets you success with the ladies, go for it. If it was me, I’d be horrified.
“Isn’t this the very attitude men hate in women? The brutal rejection when something better comes along? The refusal to return a call when a guy is just trying to “be nice” and reach out to a girl?”
Ofcourse, it’s pretty harsh but nonetheless it works. And girls have done somewhat similar thing to me that I have been interested in. Eventually you modify your strategies to whatever works. I’ve noticed you have to be kind of minimalist when it comes to the early stages of dating.
1. Never call a girl the day after a date, and unless a situation absolutely warrants it.
2. Definitely don’t make plans with her for the day after your date.
Point is you shouldn’t call that much, it generally makes you seem less interesting when you are in front in the typical immature girl. It gives her the impression youre busy and got stuff going on.
Not to be rude, but it’s that very kind of behavior that makes women like me cautious and to wait a couple of months to have sex with men. I don’t see the point in doing stuff like this unless it’s to get off on some sort of sick ego trip.
It’s one thing to remain dominant with a woman in a relationship. It’s another thing entirely to abuse power for insecurity reasons.
What do you expect the woman you spoke of in this situation to do? Do you want her to call you constantly to feed your ego, or would you rather her not call you at all as if she could care less? Do you want to dangle contact with her like a carrot in front of her nose, or do you want to actively engage another human being?
Olive my dear, I’m as horrified and saddened as you.
But the sad fact is the seond a guy shows what we can call the “normal” behaviour for a man that is falling for a girl like show her attention and call the day after he’s labeled as:
I think this is Susan was talking about when she wrote “guys act like jerks to get into relationships“.
A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.
A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.
LOL now I’m actually laughing out loud. You guys, you just won’t let Maya get into her own trouble will you? On the other hand, she did say she likes to be teased.
I’m actually having a convo over in Roosh’s Brotherly Advice with Megaman about how women like me can actually find relationship-minded dudes without being strung along like a dog chasing a treat held right in front of its nose.
@lege hart,
Boo immature girls. I say they aren’t worth your time, but I’m biased. Here’s the question: how do you know you’re not treating a non-typical girl like this? You might be filtering out some real girls. Just throwing it out there.
@Sassy,
I feel girls like us are rare, and the second guys meet us, they just lump us in with everyone else. SO frustrating, especially if you’re into a guy, and he’s into you, but you’re tempted to just stop putting forth the effort because you might be wasting your time. A good way for a potentially great relationship to go down in flames.
I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move. I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.
Wow, you sound like a real charmer. Has it occurred to you that the woman you are now dating has zero self-respect and no impulse control?
Lege: So you are deliberately arranging your romantic partner selection to look for women who have no sense of boundaries, ability to take a hint or understanding of when they’re being rejected?
I am sure this will work out very well for you and will definitely not end in tears, stalking, your car being keyed, your bunny being boiled or anything else of that ilk.
Lege hart’s situation is superrior to that of most guys’…he can actually hold a woman’s attention. Even having a dysfunctional relationship is better than having no one. In terms of relationship experience, you figure out what you don’t want.
@Olive
Just about every shallow woman out there think they’re deep thinking people, or they care about what matters. Then they watch shows like Jersey Shore and care about Paris Hilton.
You and Sassy may very well be these wonderful women, but I’m skeptical. I fully recognize that in wanting a LTR, you have a difficult time showing your intentions properly. As someone who’s suffered for this SMP, I find myself not minding watching women suffer.
A way long time past, I meet my (then future and now ex) wife about three weeks before she headed to South Africa for an extended vacation with a exchange student friend. The report I heard was that said friend (who was male) got really sick of hearing about me during her visit. We were pretty much insperable as a couple after she returned. (not so much later on but that’s another story)
I met my current girlfriend in early June this year, and promptly got quite busy dealing with the sale of my childhold home after my father entered a care facility. I spent quite a few weekends away and was busy during the week dealing with stuff at home that I didn’t have weekend time to handle. Current girlfriend found excuses to come around to my place on a weeknight several times on her own initiative. After the sale was completed and I was hanging around on the weekends, the improptu visits stopped.
In other words, ‘absense makes the heart grow fonder’ is not just a poetic saying.
I also disagree that this is ‘playing a game’. I don’t text or call my siblings or other friends obsessively which is something that I’ve done in the past to a girl I’ve been infatuiated with. That obsessive behavior is a bigger change in my normal personality than communicating when the time is right. Beta guys have a tendency to go overboard in the initial stages of a relationship. If both partners are cool with it then escalating contact is fine but I definitely think it’s something where a guy has to let the woman set the pace.
Just about every shallow woman out there think they’re deep thinking people, or they care about what matters. Then they watch shows like Jersey Shore and care about Paris Hilton.
I don’t give two shits about Paris Hilton. I watch JS because my BF got me hooked on it, and we like to watch it together and talk about how much of a trainwreck those people are. It’s an inside joke thing for us, but that doesn’t mean it’s my go-to conversation topic. I don’t watch any other show regularly… in fact, I mostly avoid TV.
FWIW, I have a lot of trouble conversing with women my age, because all they talk about is where they got their cute new designer boots, or what color eye shadow looks best on them, or how much they hate that guy they hooked up with on Saturday. Bo-ring.
You and Sassy may very well be these wonderful women, but I’m skeptical.
It’s not like this blog is a real-life situation, so feel free to be skeptical if that floats your boat.
I fully recognize that in wanting a LTR, you have a difficult time showing your intentions properly. As someone who’s suffered for this SMP, I find myself not minding watching women suffer.
I’m already in a LTR, but it took me awhile to figure out a good strategy because in the current SMP, I have no idea what others’ intentions are. I never knew if guys ignored me because they were shy or because they weren’t interested. But I hate stupid games, so I found someone who doesn’t play the games and we work quite well together.
I’m sorry to hear you’ve been burned in the SMP. It sounds like a lot of guys have. I wish women would stop rewarding bad behavior. I would only say that both sides have the wrong idea: girls with all of that “Boys are Stupid, Throw Rocks at Them” crap and guys with this “Women should know what it’s like to suffer too” stuff. I think tons of girls have been burned by the SMP too; they may be acting like idiots, but your attitude doesn’t really help solve the problem. The SMP will get better when both sexes make a conscious effort to change it.
“Wow, you sound like a real charmer. Has it occurred to you that the woman you are now dating has zero self-respect and no impulse control?”
She is average. It’s just a matter of an individuals perspective and how she reacts to certain things. She’s even talked about how girls treat guys like shit and how that she wishes there were more honest, nice girls around. There aren’t any mental deficiencies involved, not her at least. I can’t explain why she falls for this stupid shit though.
Is it my fault ‘game’ works and not heartfelt poetry?
I have suffered from this SMP too, just like you. I, however, do not want to see either men or women suffer. I want both genders to get their sh*t together and conduct themselves like responsible adults.
I don’t get this “I’ve been hurt, blah, blah, blah, so everyone else should suffer too” attitude. We are human. We all get hurt. We can’t control how people treat us 100% of the time.
Is it my fault ‘game’ works and not heartfelt poetry?
No, it’s not your fault that game works with her. It is your fault, however, for picking girls who are easily swayed by or are dependent on game.
I don’t get this, “If I express my feelings for her, she’ll think less of me/run away/think I’m a chump” thought process.
The only girls who wouldn’t be excited about a guy admitting feelings for her would be a girl who wasn’t that into you from the beginning. Her feelings about you never changed. She probably just tried to hide her ambivalence until she couldn’t anymore.
In my personal experience, every time a guy I liked or was interested in showed me attention, I was totally happy to jump on board with him. His sudden attention or feelings for me didn’t make me like him less. It made me excited and want him more.
If a girl freaks out about a man’s feelings for her, it’s because she wasn’t into you from the beginning and your feelings signaled her time to GTFO. She doesn’t want to string you along, so she starts balking once the feelings come out. If she were into you, she would be stoked to know you like her.
I wish women would stop rewarding bad behavior. I would only say that both sides have the wrong idea:
I would frame it differently. I sure don’t see myself on the same side as a natural alpha who’s been swimming in poon. I also don’t see myself as being on the same side as the slut who I might bang by learning game. I USED to think of myself as being on the same side as marriage minded good girls, except… they would practically say I wasn’t for them. The big problem isn’t just that they’re rewarding bad behavior, it’s at the same time, they’re refusing to reward GOOD behavior.
Don’t get the wrong idea. I don’t ENJOY the idea of women suffering for this SMP (yet), but I hope such suffering will help bring about a shift in their priorities… or at least make them more teachable.
The SMP will get better when both sexes make a conscious effort to change it.
I agree, but at best I can help the current generation a little, and MAYBE be a small part of the solution for the next.
FWIW, I have a lot of trouble conversing with women my age, because all they talk about is where they got their cute new designer boots, or what color eye shadow looks best on them, or how much they hate that guy they hooked up with on Saturday. Bo-ring.
This is not their problem, but yours. Cultivate friendships with women who share your interests. It is not hard.
Sorry, but I just get annoyed by girls who go on about how they find it hard to relate to other girls their age, as if they are the only ones with brains. You do realize that you’re only perpetuating the stereotype of brainless women by saying that other girls only talk about frivolous things? That’s a form of sexism in itself.
I just had an intellectually stimulating conversation with a girlfriend about politics that evolved from a discussion about shoes. Sometimes I like caviar, and sometimes I like bubblegum. There is nothing wrong with that.
… talk about how much of a trainwreck those people are
Olive, that is why EVERYONE that watches that show, and shows like it, watch it. It is a little bit like saying, “The only reason why I watch the local football team is because my dad got me into it and I like to root on the team“.
You should watch what you want to watch, but you are watching The Jersey Shore for the same reason as everyone else.
The big problem isn’t just that they’re rewarding bad behavior, it’s at the same time, they’re refusing to reward GOOD behavior.
Yes I agree. I think (though I’m not sure) that it’s not all about behavior. Girls love good behavior, but a lot of them only love it from certain guys: the hot guys. If you don’t look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney (or some variation), good friggin’ luck. You’re out of the running right there. A typical immature girl reacts to a not-attractive guy (I mean that in the classical, mass media sense) the same way a guy reacts to a fat chick: please go away, creeper. If that sounds downright nasty, that’s because it is. Girls just don’t know how much they’re limiting themselves by only going for certain guys. And I think (though, again, I’m not sure) that a lot of girls will try to snag hot boyfriends to impress their friends/make them jealous. There’s a lot of peer pressure and competition going on behind the scenes that you probably don’t know about.
But anyway, this is exactly why a big part of Game is being physically fit. If you’ve got a nice set of abs, girls won’t care what your face looks like. One of my old friends is dating a guy who not only has a rough face, he treats her like shit. Why is she still with him? I can only guess it’s because of his “hot body” or whatever.
IDK about the suffering thing. It kind of seems like no matter how much a guy treats a girl like shit, she keeps coming back for more. And then tries to go after other like-minded guys.
Thanks Ramble. If you’ve thrown me into the “shallow girls who gossip about soap operas all day” category as a result, that’s up to you. My alternative was to lie and say I don’t watch it.
Oh man, Sassy, if your post is even half true, you are so different from the average woman. I mean, literally, you are unlike any other woman I have ever known. Even my mom. I cannot stress that enough. The reason people act like that, is because it works. So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games. Guess which one will always get picked.
Also, comeon, there is so much shaming language in this thread that it’s ridiculous. Lege isn’t a bad guy for doing this, he is pragmatic, no amount of internet snark will convince him that it’s a bad idea, because it is so much more successful than the alternatives you propose.
Also, lol @ Olive and this false dichotomy you’ve set up. So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.
So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.
I’m not willing to get into a big discussion about it here, but you can go read my comments on Men’s Voices Will be Heard about how I’m one of the best shit-talkers out there, and I’m looking to change my ways by finding a group of girls that isn’t gossipy.
It’s not a dichotomy, really. It’s a spectrum. I don’t fall on the same side of the spectrum as most girls. If you honestly don’t believe that I’m not very girly, as far as my real-life interests go, bully for you. You can only take my word for it.
What kind of annoys me about conversations like this is here’s what happens:
1) A guy says something along the lines of AWALT!
2) A girl replies, offering evidence of how she is not like that.
3) Several guys respond, saying “you may think you’re different, but I bet you anything you’re just like all the other bitchy stupid girls I’ve met.”
At that point, the conversation goes in circles, or it ends.
This is a serious problem for the SMP, for both sexes. For guys, they’re either “players” or “losers.” For girls, they’re all gossiping shallow bitches and they all fall for obnoxious games like the one lege hart has described (sorry lege, I know it works for you, and I’m not trying to call you out. I’m more annoyed with the girls who respond). Anyway, there’s a lot of labeling, categorizing, and throwing verbal stones.
The frustrating part is when you actually like guys who are up front and honest, but guys have already thrown all girls into the same category. It’s probably just as frustrating for guys who are labeled as losers because they’re shy.
The SMP should consist of learning about someone’s interests/character/quirks and then deciding if they are compatible with your own. If you want to be successful with tons of ladies, OK, that’s up to you. But if you want a real relationship (and this goes for both men and women), shouldn’t it be about honesty and trust? What I love about my current relationship is that we both knew we were into each other from the start, and we’re very secure about this. I don’t want to be in a relationship that keeps me on the edge; I don’t want to be afraid I’m gonna get dumped for something better, I want to love someone openly and be loved in return. And at the end of the day, I’m pretty sure that’s what everyone wants.
I’m not at all anti-Game, FWIW. I can’t deal with Roissy (I don’t think many girls can), but I really like Athol Kay’s blog. Of course, he doesn’t keep Jennifer constantly wondering if he’ll divorce her, his Game tactics are little day-to-day things.
Listen, you watch Jersey Shore for the same reason everyone else watches Jersey Shore, ergo, atleast by that measure, you are closer to the average than you think. That’s all I’m trying to say here.
I also echo your frustrations: It is ridiculous that human relationships have turned into a game of chicken; who likes who less? However, chiming in that NAWALT and you are the exception doesn’t really do much good for anyone. No woman ever considers herself “like that” and telling us gives us no new info. I get it, nobody wants to be painted as one of the crowd, especially when the crowd is such a sorry gathering of people. But if everyone took NAWALT at face value we would all be left scratching our heads that we continue to have the issues we have, and yet, we cannot find the issues that cause them.
What kind of annoys me about conversations like this is here’s what happens:
1) A guy says something along the lines of AWALT!
2) A girl replies, offering evidence of how she is not like that.
3) Several guys respond, saying “you may think you’re different, but I bet you anything you’re just like all the other bitchy stupid girls I’ve met.”
At that point, the conversation goes in circles, or it ends.
I know it’s tough trying to work through misconceptions. I see them every day.
FWIW, I’ve actually seen girls who have gone for the LTR route in their early 20′s. They’re a mix of girls with a high natural tolerance to beta and ones who have been burned by alpha early and started actually thinking. The real sticking point here are:
1) it’s to the woman’s advantage to lie in order to get into a relationship.
2) the man will typically assume a woman who isn’t opening up for him is already opening up for another man
3) the woman lacks the capacity to properly assure the man that she in fact only wants him.
It’s this catch 22 that we’re trying to find a suitable counter for. Susan made a really good go at it a few posts ago. Writ large, I think it has a chance of working, but our task is to START the avalanche, not ride it.
The frustrating part is when you actually like guys who are up front and honest, but guys have already thrown all girls into the same category. It’s probably just as frustrating for guys who are labeled as losers because they’re shy.
I’d have no problem walking up to a woman and telling her I like her when I find her attractive. Women’s attraction doesn’t work nearly this fast. Any guy who doesn’t state his sexual interest within 1 minute of meeting her isn’t being “up front” because he’ll know way before then. You can only POSSIBLY get away with this if you are super attractive, and even then will fail most of the time.
THEN there’s the social rules about how you’re supposed to do this useless chatter thing when you first meet people instead of asking weighty questions so you can actually get to know the person properly.
Let me give you an example of how this works with some boiled down approaches:
Example 1:
Ceer: Hi. I’m nice. I think you’re attractive, would you like to get to know me better?
Girl: Hi. I’m being dismissive or mean to you.
Ceer: *Hmm, I wonder if she’s just an evil bitch or if I broke some sort of social rule…*
Example 2:
Ceer: Hi. I’m sort of nice, but I’m talking about random crap so I’m not showing you who I really am.
Girl: Hi. I’m giving you some interest.
Ceer: Great, let me make a game mistake.
Girl: Ooh, that’s unforgivable, but I’m going to smile as you go out of my life. Bye.
This is the rough disparity in treatment between the two groups with equal game/looks.
I have to believe there’s a way of being effective without being a rude jerk, ignoring people and rejecting them with rudeness to get attention. It seems to me that one can have a strong frame and do very well with women who are not teetering on the edge as this woman seems to be. I agree with Ozy – this kind of girl often turns psycho quickly. Why? Because she is!
Even having a dysfunctional relationship is better than having no one. In terms of relationship experience, you figure out what you don’t want.
There’s an opportunity cost to that. And you’re wasting time. There’s also the very real cynicism that one develops when engaging in this kind of relationship.
@DerHahn
Surely there is a middle ground between texting oneitis and ignoring a woman when she speaks to you! I think you’ve described the right strategy, which involves expressing interest but also a very full life. Not expressing disinterest. The latter strategy will draw women desperate for male validation to boost self-esteem.
Listen, you watch Jersey Shore for the same reason everyone else watches Jersey Shore, ergo, atleast by that measure, you are closer to the average than you think. That’s all I’m trying to say here.
I totally understand what you’re saying, JS is a product of the trashy pop culture that, in a way, has helped to create the current SMP, and it doesn’t bode well for me that I watch it. However, we all have our stupid guilty pleasures, and just because I watch JS with my BF doesn’t mean I aspire to be like Snooki or something. TV is very addicting; once you start watching, no matter how much you hate something, you have to see it to the end. I once walked into a room where people were watching Saw II, and even though I hate scary movies with a passion and I can’t sleep at night when I watch them, I just couldn’t look away.
In other news, this is why I don’t generally watch TV.
No woman ever considers herself “like that” and telling us gives us no new info. I get it, nobody wants to be painted as one of the crowd, especially when the crowd is such a sorry gathering of people. But if everyone took NAWALT at face value we would all be left scratching our heads that we continue to have the issues we have, and yet, we cannot find the issues that cause them.
Yes and no. It’s been said that the regular female commenters here do not represent the majority of women. Anacaona reads and enjoys Twilight… I can’t stand those books, but that doesn’t mean I throw her into the category of bitchy women who are screwing over betas in the SMP. I think everyone here has benefited from her insights. Same with Hope and Bellita and Sassy and whoever. If we were your average girls looking to land big juicy alpha hunks, I don’t think we would’ve survived the threads here. Most of the girls who are setting the standards in the SMP probably aren’t reading blogs or forums, and my guess is they aren’t reading HUS.
I guess what I’m saying is this: it’s frustrating being a female participant on this blog and having guys jump at the chance to throw me in with everyone else. The minute I say something that could possibly be used to construe me as an average girl, or worse, a feminist, I’m immediately discredited. Today it’s because I watched JS. The other day it was because I hinted that traditional feminism was meant to create relationships in which men and women appreciated each other openly. They were things I mentioned in passing; I had other, much more valuable things to say, but suddenly I found myself in intense debates about topics that didn’t even pertain to the original discussion. I’ve had many very valuable, interesting discussions, even debates, with men on this blog. But the debates I didn’t mean to have are not productive, and I find them to be irrelevant to my purpose here. And in some instances, I just stop responding.
This blog interaction I just described is a proxy for the SMP. If you really think every girl is out to screw you over, you will throw all of them into the same category without considering what they say/how they act. A perfectly lovely girl could be miserable right now because a guy thinks it’s appropriate to keep her guessing and leave her hanging. And if she’s smart, she won’t put up with that bullshit and she’ll just leave. And then, you’ll only be filtering in the very average girls you complain about. Eventually, the stupid sluts (or whatever you want to call them) will be rewarded, and the girls who hate games will be left out of the dating pool because they refuse to participate. Sound familiar?
Also, I agree with Susan. There’s a definitely a middle ground between obsessively texting a girl you like every 5 seconds and purposely not talking to her to gain the upper hand. I would add that it’s different for every girl, though. If my BF didn’t call me all day, I would get really upset and start badgering him obnoxiously about “you never call me anymore, you don’t love me.” He’s known that almost since the beginning, and we’ve found a good balance. Social rules are important, but they only work in a very general sense.
I’m with Ceer in that I don’t seek to actively cause sexual marketplace pain. I just can’t be too bent out of shape worrying about the ill results of people making obviously bad decisions, or who insist on rejecting all but a handful of men. Too many souls to save. It’s just there’s only so many times a guy can hear “I want a nice guy who won’t cheat on me” or somesuch wish to the heavens before he just stops worrying about why she keeps dating mean guys who cheat on her and ignores the guys who wouldn’t do it, at the same time deploying some Maya-like explanation that the nice mongamous guys aren’t “interesting” enough or can’t “protect” her (an explanation that, truly, is not a rationalization).
I have, and continue to, counsel women (and men) who present with at least a smidge of humility, saying “this bad shit is happening and I can’t tell what to do. Can you help me figure this out?” That’s part of the business of my blog.
I think we’re all on the same team here. The other day I was talking to one of my female friends and she said something along the lines of “I’m so picky when it comes to guys, I just can’t seem to find any good ones out there.” I immediately told her to read this blog with a very open mind. Not sure if she’s come by, she’d likely get slaughtered in the comments, but perhaps she’s grappled a bit with the notion that she is part of the problem. I say this often, but I’ll say it again; I would’ve gotten so much out of this blog in early college, when I was single.
@Ceer,
I’d have no problem walking up to a woman and telling her I like her when I find her attractive. Women’s attraction doesn’t work nearly this fast. Any guy who doesn’t state his sexual interest within 1 minute of meeting her isn’t being “up front” because he’ll know way before then.
I guess I should’ve been more clear. By “up front,” I meant that I don’t mind if a guy tells me he’s attracted to me after we hang out for the first time. I guess a lot of girls like the thrill of the chase, but I do not. I find it stressful, and if a guy is playing this game of stand-offishness, I start to wonder if I’m not good enough for him. I don’t like that feeling, and I’m surprised that so many girls respond to this kind of interaction.
I would not call if I were in this situation. Generally I just don’t ask if I can call and follow up. If it goes a while after applying I will just call them up and see if there is any new news.
“The other day I was talking to one of my female friends and she said something along the lines of “I’m so picky when it comes to guys, I just can’t seem to find any good ones out there.” I immediately told her to read this blog with a very open mind.”
I say this not to insult your friend, but this is something I’d term “malignant hypergamy” or “pathological hypergamy,” itself an offshoot of pathological narcissism in that a woman’s attraction system is overvaluing her own SMV in judging potential partners. We have noted here how casual sex from higher-standing men can cause a woman to think she’s hot stuff but you don’t need to get boned to be picky.
Fortunately, I believe it to be treatable. Like this.
If a reasonably attractive, reasonably affable (e.g. not ugly or a geek), non-religious woman tells me she’s never had a boyfriend, or doesn’t meet a lot of guys or something like this, I usually suspect toopickyosis (followed by tactical game failure like not giving the guy her number, frequent flaking, etc). It’s insidious in that when you suffer from it you start rejecting guys without even knowing it, it shows on your face and guys can tell not to even try, shrinking your pool further.
I guess it would be too harsh to say these women’s standards are too high. Instead I’ll say, they think they can be pickier than their market value allows them. Put another way, they can’t afford to be rejecting prospects for superficial reasons.
I remember my old girlfriend’s overweight and rude friend complain there just weren’t that many guys who fit her “standards” or something like this. I think she insisted her boyfriend make six figures, she came from a high-income but not wealthy family which partially explained the lack of class. This was just after she had directly and cruelly insulted a good friend of mine to me (my friend wasn’t there and in any case had made no acts of interest towards her). I told her innocently, ”well I guess if you have enough options that you can afford to be that picky, then more power to you.” Word got back to me later that another girl there wanted to punch me (a show of bravado I doubted she would have gone through with). They’re all still single at last check, I expect some of them will become Kate Bolicks without Kate’s money and social status.
@ Susan, I totally disagree. I was in a wonderful relationship for almost 2 years. The first year, I kept a strong frame, and things we’re good. Then we had some issues, and I admit I should have broken up with her instead of this, but I started playing serious mindgames with her, then the relationship became amazing. I have never ever seen a girl become so enthusiastic about everything as she did, it was ludicrous. And she wasn’t crazy either, she was a perfectly respectable, perfectly sane, wonderful girl. No horrible past/relationship history, nothing. But it worked. You can’t argue with those results; you just can’t. Why would I text a girl enough to keep her comfortable, when I can text her enough to keep her interested instead? Less effort on my part, more pay off. The alternative simply doesn’t make sense, there is no point in hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort.
Also, I reject your claim that girls that respond to this are somehow damaged or psycho; they’re not. They are regular, average, normal girls. They are subject to the same psychological quirks. And for what it’s worth, this sort of flakiness will work on anyone, regardless of gender. Unless the guy has a harem going, in which case he won’t care. But for most cases, yes, this works.
@ Olive
I’m not saying you aspire to be Snooki. The average girl who watches Jersey Shore doesn’t aspire to be Snooki, she watches it for the same reasons you do. You don’t stand out from the crowd in that regard. That’s really all I am trying to say.
I say this not to insult your friend, but this is something I’d term “malignant hypergamy” or “pathological hypergamy,” itself an offshoot of pathological narcissism in that a woman’s attraction system is overvaluing her own SMV in judging potential partners.
I’ve been out of the market 5+ years, but from reading various blogs and accounts, my sense is this has really skyrocketed even the past 5 years to the point where it seems like maybe there is an epidemic of delusional hypergamy. There was another thread where I posted the comment that I think the combination of both of a lack of self-awareness and the magnitude of the hypergamous impulse makes a woman her own worst enemy in finding a fulfilling relationship. You see this where now media is reflecting reality. I think it was either a Beyonce or Rihanna song I saw posted here that literally is the anthem for hypergamy.
You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.
Word got back to me later that another girl there wanted to punch me (a show of bravado I doubted she would have gone through with). They’re all still single at last check, I expect some of them will become Kate Bolicks without Kate’s money and social status.
Just a side point thinking back to my bouncing days, but I remember being surprised at the physicality of certain women. I don’t know if it was out of control emotion, delusion, or what, but say a guy got totally out of hand.. Most guys I’d give a certain look, or a few seconds in a serious headlock, and they knew to back the f*ck down realizing the damage I could do them. It was always awkward trying to restrain women out of control because you had to be careful of just how much physicality to apply, but it almost seems with the “you go girl nonsense” that many women have forgotten just how much more physically powerful EVEN the average man is. It is almost surreal that any woman would consider initiating any kind of physical action against a guy.
I’m not saying you aspire to be Snooki. The average girl who watches Jersey Shore doesn’t aspire to be Snooki, she watches it for the same reasons you do. You don’t stand out from the crowd in that regard. That’s really all I am trying to say.
OK but that’s not what you said originally. Here’s what you said:
Also, lol @ Olive and this false dichotomy you’ve set up. So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.
From what I gathered, you assumed that because I watch JS, I am just as shallow and gossipy as everyone else, right? You must at least see why I responded the way I have. I don’t take lightly to being called “shallow,” particularly because my dating behavior is not based on superficiality. This has been demonstrated in many other comments I’ve posted.
Anyway, I’ve tried to explain this several times, and I’ll explain it again: this “stand-offishness” does not work on everyone…I can tell you for sure, I would absolutely hate it. Maybe some other aspects of Game would work for me, but that one does not. I would seriously become a whiny bitch if I sensed any type of disinterest or “playing it cool.” I know because a few months out of high school, I had a long-distance BF who wanted to do “weekly” phone calls and became very stand-offish. I hated that our contact was limited, I became a royal pain in his ass as a result, and we eventually broke up. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t do flakiness.
Anacaona reads and enjoys Twilight… I can’t stand those books, but that doesn’t mean I throw her into the category of bitchy women who are screwing over betas in the SMP.
I though the stereotypical twilight reader was an dumb woman in an abusive relationship? Did they changed the haters arguments again? Why no one tells me this stuff?
Also would you feel the same if I told you that I cosplayed as Bella for the Twilight convention?
I guess what I’m saying is this: it’s frustrating being a female participant on this blog and having guys jump at the chance to throw me in with everyone else.
Hang in there Olive this is the way men operate men don’t nuclearly reject women sexually but they are harsh filter of allies, specially women. There is a sort of “baptism with fire” that all female commenters had to get through here (if you are brave you should check the Nice Guy TM thread and show how I was crucified there too) after that I can get away with almost everything because I earned my wings, the thing is, that is hard thing to do specially in this culture were women are cuddled and their feelings validated with “you are great he is a creep” the moment they start feel uncomfortable about something. Is not easy I didn’t had a nice time during my “trial” but it does get better also you will start to no take it personally every timea they talk about women you will seeing them as separated from you thus the “Team Woman” also wanes a bit.
One of the first HUGE deal breakers was flakiness any man that told me he was going to call me at 7 and didn’t, got asked what happened if not a good explanation and did it again I labeled him “unreliable” and never took a phone call ever again from them. I don’t know if normal women get aroused waiting like idiots for a call that never comes, but I don’t enjoy feeling like an idiot and I usually set the time aside to talk to the guy in question without distractions so the level of effort being responded with indifference, was a big turn off.
Hubby promised me from day one to write me daily after work and never ever ever failed, the days he couldn’t he will tell me in advance, and then explain what happened with details. I adore him just like that I know I can trust his word, nothing makes me wetter than feeling emotionally safe, I know I’m weird and probably boring but ces’t la vie.
So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games.
I didn’t read anything below this quote in the thread.
I’m going to be harsh with you in the hopes it will eventually help you. When reading this, it will be tempting to slip into the oh so comfortable “shaming language” defense. That’s fine – see, I’m in a win-win here. Either I help you, and gain a little good karma to balance my scales with, or you decide I’m trying to shame you somehow, go your own way, and leave more women for me.
Now that you know where I sit, I’ll tell you where I stand:
You are incorrect. Those are the lazy man’s choices. Those are not the only choices you have.
Sure, that stuff will work with a few women. Most of those will be damaged somehow, women who can’t tolerate closeness and intimacy because of their flaws, real and/or perceived. You’re offering them the idea of a relationship without an actual relationship – something to dump buckets of emotional energy into without risking anything other than looking a little foolish. You’re a Placebo Relationship.
Unfortunately, you’re going to snare a small percentage of actually good women who actually like you in spite of your behavior. You’ll run them through the ringer, and then one of you will break it off with the other. She’ll conclude that all men are assholes (she’ll only be right about you, though) and you’ll decide that getting a women’s attention in short, frantic doses is good enough because you don’t know any other way.
Here is one alternative option among many. I did basically this several years ago, based on something a buddy of mine said. It is hard. You will get tired. Some of it sucks at first. It is not your only option. But it works:
1. Decide you’re going to forgo women for a year. Seriously – don’t pursue, don’t date, don’t approach. If poontang falls out of the sky onto your dick, have fun, but recognize that it’s actually putting things on hold. Don’t give me that bullshit about sex being a need, either. It’s nice, and it’s a biological drive, but it is not a need. No one has ever died from lack of sex. If they did, I’d have a bunch of emergency prostitutes in the back of my ambulance and a shitload of protocols and training on how to administer vagina to the poor unfortunates afflicted with end stage hypocoitus.
But they don’t.
And I don’t.
So quit using “But I have neeeeeeeeedddsss!” as a cop out.
2. Get serious about your career or school. If you’re doing something, you ought to be doing it well. If you’re stuck (more on that later) doing something you hate, consider it a test of discipline and will to do it well. Prove to yourself that you can do the needful, no matter how boring or hard or dirty it is. Discipline is like a muscle. If you don’t use it, it gets flabby. If you never do anything difficult, you’ll never develop the discipline to do anything worthwhile. If you shun your duties and responsibilities when they’re hard, you won’t be able to put out for yourself when you have a great opportunity – you’ll lack the ability.
Here’s a little Rudyard Kipling (from every Infantry Sergeant’s favorite poem The Heathen) to illustrate the proper mindset:
Getting clear of dirtiness, getting done with mess,
Getting shut of doing things rather-more-or-less;
Not so fond of abby-nay, kul, nor hazar-ho,
Learns to keep his rifle and himself just so!
That third line is pidgin Hindustani slang that means: abby-nay (not now), kul (tomorrow) and hazar-ho (wait a bit). So knock that shit off.
3. Go get a physical. Get your labs drawn. Address any physical problems you have. If your teeth are fucked up, get them fixed. If you wear glasses, get contacts or corrective surgery. If you throw your hands up and say,”I don’t have the money!” well, you’ve got something to save for now, don’t you? Better get on #1 then.
4. What is your passion? What mark do you want to make on the world? There are all kinds of idiot out there who talk about making films, writing, painting, music, etc. constantly as if it’s what drives their life….and they don’t do shit but talk. Those people are laughed at behind their backs. They’re in love with the image of “The Artist” but they lack the intestinal fortitude it takes to create something that might be criticized. Don’t be that guy. Those guys are wastes of good carbon atoms. The world eventually treats them as such.
This applies to anything. You’re passion doesn’t have to be artsy. I play the drums, and write a bit, but both are hobbies. I figured out neither was a passion by attempting to do them regularly. I lack the love and obsession with either to ever truly master those crafts. Getting brutally honest with myself about this freed my ego/identity to explore other areas of life, and I found something I truly am passionate about.
So find something to be passionate about. Bring something new and good into the world. It could be bringing joy to the face of a child in the burn ward of your local hospital, or an invention so bad-ass that Vince the Sham Wow/SlapChop guy will be selling millions of them.
Work on it for an hour a day, six days a week. Talking about it with your buddies at the coffee shop with your Mac open to a blank screen doesn’t count. You aren’t creating anything, you’re just bullshitting.
5. Get in shape. Find a program and stick to it. It doesn’t have to be drudgery, either. I like doing Krav Maga because I think it’s fun to punch and choke people. You might like racquetball or lifting weights or whatever. The point is to lose your gut and put on some muscle.
6. Go somewhere you’ve never been once a month. It could be a restaurant or a concert hall or some far-flung country – the point is to see new things and talk to new people. It’s also to get you out from in front of your Starcraft 2 game once in awhile.
7. Read a little Game, but try not to use it yourself for the agreed upon year. Just observe it around you. Eavesdrop on couples in the grocery store, watch it flow in the classroom or at work, think about it, see examples of it in movies or TV. Let it age in your brain like a nice Islay whisky. It’ll flavor your interactions a bit anyway, just having learned the concepts. Less is more.
8. If you like your job and look forward to work most days, skip this step.
Figure out what you really want to do for a living. I’m not going to go Full Zen on you and say you need to turn your avocation into a vocation. That’s great for some folks, but it just ain’t gonna happen in one year for most of us. That’s okay. What you can do, though, is make steps toward building a better life for yourself. So figure out what you can do to make that happen. Write a plan out, then follow it through. It might be as simple as getting a certification, or you might need to get back into/go to school. Get it done.
At the end of the year, if you’ve done everything faithfully, you’ll value yourself a lot more. Good things will come into your life much more frequently than before. Some of those things you’ll have specifically worked for, and some will seem to appear at random because of your good attitude and ethic. You’ll find women will value you more, too. You’ll find that you genuinely respect some of the women who like you. The world will seem like a better place, and life will not seem so hard – despite the hard work you do.
Think it’s bullshit? What are you bringing to the table, then? Think it’s wrong to work hard to have things and people in your life that are valuable and excellent?
Fine – more quality women for me, then. Good luck – you’re gonna need it.
It’s difficult to teach some girls. What I was getting at, is that an irrational girl in pain is hopefully more likely to listen to reason than an irrational girl who’s hunky dory.
Anacaona is pretty close to correct… what she describe IS typical guy behavior…any time a new social order is established, the men spar to figure out where each other stand.
@ Badger
A girl who complains about guys wants to punch you? Good for you. You’re obviously talking to them in the right manner.
Interesting thought about the malignant hypergamy.
Female Access Hollywood reporter asks Robert Pattinson: “Have you ever actually broken a headboard?”
“Yes.”
*visibly tingles*
Guilty as charge but then isn’t this a male fantasy too? I read something about a novel in which the leading man has sex with his beloved till the bed becomes splinters I think is a sci-fi or something like, it written by and for men so yeah don’t blame us for that you want to do it too. :p
Also *ginatingles* for actually quoting anything related with Twilight I always give major points to men for that. The very bulked out guy at the convention with his wife had a T-shirt “Twilight ruined my wife” That is what I call manly “I go to girly stuff with my wife and if you have a problem I have a big fist that you might want to talk to”
This is not their problem, but yours. Cultivate friendships with women who share your interests. It is not hard.
Maybe I’m in the wrong place, or looking in the wrong places, but I have found that it generally is very difficult. I have 2 female friends who I can honestly say are interesting and interested in intellectual discussions. The rest only care about bubblegum, and the minute I discuss something else, I immediately get shot down, or I get the very slight nod and the rather blank stare, then the change of subject.
The other week I had to do an excruciating group project with a bunch of girls about a movie. This one girl would shut me down anytime I actually tried to discuss the movie (which, you know, was the point of the project). Her goal was to get the project done and get out. We have to present the project tomorrow, and I have no idea what we’re going to talk about, because all we’ve done, as a group, is put a few words on a powerpoint. Why was this girl so eager to shut down a potentially enlightening conversation about a school project, a conversation we were supposed to have? And better yet, why did all the other girls in the group defer to her?
You do realize that you’re only perpetuating the stereotype of brainless women by saying that other girls only talk about frivolous things? That’s a form of sexism in itself.
I only read it as I see it. I was part of a frivolous group of girls in college, and it got so bad that my BF pointed out that the frivolity had worn off on me. He said I wasn’t interested in intellectual discussions anymore, and he was having trouble relating to me. That’s when I knew there was a problem.
But my old friends were mildly frivolous compared to the vast majority of the girls on my campus. And now that I’m in a social work program, it seems even worse. I’m not trying to perpetuate a stereotype, and I certainly don’t think girls are brainless. But I just don’t see them USING their brains that often.
I just had an intellectually stimulating conversation with a girlfriend about politics that evolved from a discussion about shoes. Sometimes I like caviar, and sometimes I like bubblegum. There is nothing wrong with that.
That’s totally cool, it sounds like you have a great friend. In high school, my friends told me to “shut up” about politics. It wasn’t much better in college, so I stopped talking about academic stuff when my friends were around. The only thing most of them know about my first abroad experience is that I “hung around with a bunch of creepy Mexicans.” They know even less about my second abroad experience, and I doubt they’d care.
Again, maybe I’m just ignorant and not paying attention to the right groups of girls, but I have found it very difficult to socialize with women without artificially increasing my “girly-ness” for conversational purposes.
I though the stereotypical twilight reader was an dumb woman in an abusive relationship? Did they changed the haters arguments again? Why no one tells me this stuff?
LOL I actually just made up a fake hater argument.
Also would you feel the same if I told you that I cosplayed as Bella for the Twilight convention?
OK now I might be judging you….
Kidding, obvi. Half my bitterness at Twilight, I must admit, is because I was totally rooting for Jacob the whole time and got pissed that Bella ended up with such a cold, boring man. Jacob was hot. The whole 4th book was a waste because he was out of the picture for Bella, IMO of course.
The other half of my bitterness is aimed at the movies. I’m sorry for those who disagree but I really think neither Kristen nor Rob are very good actors. The second movie was like torture, not sure why I say through it. Taylor finally got a little better in the third movie, buuut I doubt I’ll see the 4th (and 5th?).
There is a sort of “baptism with fire” that all female commenters had to get through here
LOL yes I’ve sort of gathered this. It’s fine, when I first arrived it was immediately assumed I was a typical beta hater. Only so much I can do eh?
you will start to no take it personally every timea they talk about women you will seeing them as separated from you thus the “Team Woman” also wanes a bit.
I’ve also figured this. Which is sad, because I don’t want to seem anti-woman, but, I do get frustrated when I hear about women’s preferences and rejection methods.
It’s difficult to teach some girls. What I was getting at, is that an irrational girl in pain is hopefully more likely to listen to reason than an irrational girl who’s hunky dory.
Yes I agree with this. Which is why, whenever I hear a girl talking about being rejected or dumped, from now on I’m just going to tell her to read this blog. It’s like spreading the good news! Only, without the whole forcing religion on people thing…
I have no intentions of shaming Lege. I am simply pointing out that his technique is short-sighted, given that he’s actively filtering for women who can’t pick up on signals or accept the existence of boundaries. Women like me would assume he’s rejecting us and stop calling; women like Jane, the friendly neighborhood drama queen, would assume that he’s playing a game and call all the time. It will end in thrown plates and tears, I’m telling you.
Dogsquat: See, that is good advice. (I’d disagree about the Game bit, but then, crazy feminist over here. ) I think what a lot of people don’t get is that they have to bring value into people’s lives to get a relationship; you don’t just get one for being a half-decent person. You get one because someone else wants to be in a relationship with you. It helps to be awesome.
“my sense is this has really skyrocketed even the past 5 years to the point where it seems like maybe there is an epidemic of delusional hypergamy”
I have seen this firsthand in my return to the marketplace in the last ~7 months. It is truly brutal. In the sense of it being something that touches everyone in a population, it certainly is an epidemic. The pathological hypergamist used to be a stock character in teen shows, the bitchy chick who rejected everybody. Now it’s a functioning archetype of young adult society.
“You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.”
Kate Bolick’s essay was a refreshing piece from the MSM in that it acknowledged the 80-20 paradigm, but at the end said essentially the same thing.
“There was another thread where I posted the comment that I think the combination of both of a lack of self-awareness and the magnitude of the hypergamous impulse makes a woman her own worst enemy in finding a fulfilling relationship.”
Without a doubt, the status-whoring just kills a woman’s chance at being happy. I’d add the force of a woman’s hypergamous friends to that list.
“You see this where now media is reflecting reality. ”
I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.
Kidding, obvi. Half my bitterness at Twilight, I must admit, is because I was totally rooting for Jacob the whole time and got pissed that Bella ended up with such a cold, boring man. Jacob was hot. The whole 4th book was a waste because he was out of the picture for Bella, IMO of course.
The other half of my bitterness is aimed at the movies. I’m sorry for those who disagree but I really think neither Kristen nor Rob are very good actors. The second movie was like torture, not sure why I say through it. Taylor finally got a little better in the third movie, buuut I doubt I’ll see the 4th (and 5th?).
Is okay I’m totally the opposite of you if it was for me there wouldn’t be any Jacob at all in the saga or I would had worked him like SMeyer initially planned the small part he had in Twilight then Imprinting in Forever Dawn. I guess is the same about the movies I do like Taylor though he is a good funny kid, devoted to his work but he, Ashley Greene and Kellan Lutz have limited chops and their looks are not very malleable, they only will be selling beauty and gym products in the future. The rest of the cast will do well and I do think all of them are solid actors, including the wolf pack except for Kiowa I don’t think he can act or that he even likes it at this point, YMMV as usual.
I’ve also figured this. Which is sad, because I don’t want to seem anti-woman, but, I do get frustrated when I hear about women’s preferences and rejection methods.
Just think of yourself as pro-people or anti-sexist.
Anacaona is pretty close to correct… what she describe IS typical guy behavior…any time a new social order is established, the men spar to figure out where each other stand.
Thanks for giving the right words! *kissinthecheek* That was what I was trying to explain.
I have seen this firsthand in my return to the marketplace in the last ~7 months. It is truly brutal. In the sense of it being something that touches everyone in a population, it certainly is an epidemic. The pathological hypergamist used to be a stock character in teen shows, the bitchy chick who rejected everybody. Now it’s a functioning archetype of young adult society.
IMO, what you are seeing is sort of the market bubble phase. The thing about market bubbles is they always run further then you would ever expect. I remember seeing California, Arizona, Las Vegas housing prices in 2004-2005 thinking how in Godl’s name is this possible. Many of those are now down 50% off the peak. I don’t think this bubble pops until you get a much greater percentage of women hitting 35+ and not getting married or having kids. I suspect the cries of “where are all the good men” will get deafening. It will be interesting to see if this results in some sort of collective self-examination.
I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.
Very interesting point. I hadn’t previously thought of this, but I think you are right in that it reflects the perception of the average guy.
Without a doubt, the status-whoring just kills a woman’s chance at being happy. I’d add the force of a woman’s hypergamous friends to that list.
Yes, I totally agree. Hypergamy can rub off very easily in a group, and in some cases, it’s hard to resist. So much of it is just jealousy, though. You can hear that in the wistful sighs of “awww man if only we were all single, we could go out together and it would be so fun like old times.” There’s a certain pressure to keep going out with your friends even if you’re in a LTR, and I had to be very careful about this. The last thing I’d want would be my BF thinking I’m out there cheating, or looking for something better. But it’s a difficult balancing act of “having fun” vs. not compromising your relationship. And it gets worse when you hear that “chicks before dicks” stuff.
As for movie protagonists, I must admit I adore Michael Cera. Swoon.
Oh shit, my bad. I’m not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I just really have no idea where I was going with that one.
@ Dogsquat
LOL.
I am graduating this university this year, going into a career I will really enjoy. I was a varsity athlete that made the deans list for my first 3 years, before I quit varsity in order to focus on school more. LOL @ lose your gut. Lose my gut my ass, lol. I have been in better shape than 90% of human beings on this planet at one point.
I am also a classically trained guitarist, and pianist. By classically, I mean in the Spanish style, finger picking, all that jazz. None of this “chugging away with power chords that I learned from youtube” garbage that is so common now a days. My mother, being the patriot she is, insisted I study Chopin extensively;I can literally plays dozens of his Polonaises on the piano for you. Music is very enjoyable for me, a passion, if you will
I have lived in Italy, and in Germany, seen Austria, France and Switzerland aswell. I also learned another language, in order to better communicate with my mom and my grandparents. It wasn’t easy, I still can’t spell for the life of me or read complex writings, but I am totally fluent. I regularly attend art shows, concerts, or other events that my university throws.
So now that we’ve establish that I am not a fat, video game addicted anti social loser, do you have any advice?
You and Susan both make the claim that this sort of namby pamby mind game stuff doesn’t work on women, but it does! I have used it successfully! I have seen it used successfully! And this was all with perfectly healthy, psychologically normal girls. Women will agonize over why he didn’t call, why he didn’t text back, etc. This doesn’t make them low quality, it makes them people.
Your dilemma was “mindgames or celibacy”. My alternative was for you to get some shit going on in your life, make you an interesting person, like.
You report back that you are actually King Shit of Turd Mountain - interesting as Indiana Jones and more accomplished than Miyamoto Musashi. Okay, then….why can’t you find a girl you like and respect?
You might not be looking in the right places. Yes, looking. I’m a non-traditional “college kid” at a big school right now, and I observe the goings on with interest. The local “high value” males sort of remind me of crocodiles or other ambush predators. They position themselves, then wait for something dumb to come waltzing up. They pounce, expend a little energy, and either get what they’re after or give up quickly before too much energy is spent. Perhaps another strategy is in order.
You might be impatient.
It could also be your personality. I remember you from another thread were you had an extensive chat with Jesus Mahoney, You were such an argumentative prick that porcupines fled the mere rumor of your approach.
I know this is just the internet and everything, but I’ve met and become friends in real life with enough people from forums and blogs to know that a good bit of someone’s natural personality comes through in their writing. You seem angry, pessimistic, and a little vindictive. Who wants to be around someone like that? Not the kind of girl you’re looking for, I think.
Dude, I might be wrong. I hope I am, actually. You could be happier than Richard Simmons for all I know. I’m just some guy on the internet.
This might sound like a bit of gladhanding, but I mean no offense. I gave you my best guess, you said I was wrong, and I tried again. I have a sneaking suspicion that you’ll deny these guesses, too, since they’re not very flattering. Who knows.
A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.
If you present yourself as a desperate, needy and clingy person in the first five minutes after meeting a girl you can be sure you will drive most of them away. Are you attracted to desperate women?
@Badger,
… deploying some Maya-like explanation that the nice mongamous guys aren’t “interesting” enough or can’t “protect” her.
Where did I say that about nice guys? I’m sorry I used the word shy – this was probably just projection – I’m shy myself and seems that I like to talk shit about people with similar flaws as I have … However, it’s true that I only like guys with whom I can feel safe with. I don’t want a child to cling on me – I’m looking for a guy I can cling to. But this is just my own preference, not sure why it bothers you so much …
@Mike C,
You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.
I never said that. But you have to know that if you want to buy youth and beauty you need something to pay for that. What do you have?
Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.
Mindgames vs celibacy is the choice the average guy has to make. Or he can go on some crazy quest wherein he becomes the most interesting man in the world, as per your suggestions, just to get laid. Why would somebody who wants to get laid take a year off from getting laid, and spend so much time on stuff they don’t care about (else, they’d probably already be doing it) when there is a simpler solution (even if you don’t want to admit that mindgames work on non-psychologically damaged women). Now if someone wants to turn their life around, then yes, go for it. Throw yourself into the Dogsquat life program as hard as you can.
Also, sure, I am angry as fuck. If, as a man, you are aware of what is going on in the mainstream media, in the academic world and the courts, you should be angry. Or you’re not paying attention.
Am I pessimistic? You bet the fuck I am pessimistic. For the above reasons. Vindictive? Sure, why not. I can be cruel, everyone has the capacity for cruelty.
I’m argumentative because you and Jesus made posts that consist of you talking down to me. Your advice wasn’t new or novel, it just wasn’t practical, and then your post had entirely too many tidbits about how great you are. I get it, you are a big time blogger, when people read your name on the screen, women get tingly and men avert their eyes. I’ll cut the crap if you will.
I have, and continue to, counsel women (and men) who present with at least a smidge of humility, saying “this bad shit is happening and I can’t tell what to do. Can you help me figure this out?” That’s part of the business of my blog.
I’ll second that. I’m a sucker for earnestness in people. If someone has that quality I’ll forgive almost everything else. I actually recall one very specific moment at a lunch table in B-school when my husband said something incredibly earnest and I realized what a good man he was – that’s when I went from crushing on him to wanting to really make it happen.
Earnestness is not the same as humility, but I find they often go hand in hand.
It’s insidious in that when you suffer from it you start rejecting guys without even knowing it, it shows on your face and guys can tell not to even try, shrinking your pool further.
I’m more and more convinced of this. I think people get a lot of data from one another totally at a subconscious level. We know they do hormonally, it makes sense that they also take the emotional temperature of people when meeting them or observing them. Negative energy must be a hindrance if that is true. I’ve been thinking about this with regard to promiscuity/carousel riding lately. While I don’t think “slut tells” as listed by Roissy are always evident, I think there might be some kind of trail of clues that is reflected in the woman’s emotional state, and that is telegraphed.
Of course, a woman having a ton of sex “like a guy” and loving it is not going to be having that anxiety, stress, etc. so may project a very positive energy. In that case I presume she’d be open about it.
I’m pro-Game, and we all know a bit of push pull is very effective. But there is a big difference between pulling back, creating an opportunity for a woman to want you, and being overtly rejecting. The latter approach filters for women who will persevere in the face of repeated rejection, who are usually on the needy and desperate end of the spectrum. They’ll do just about anything for male validation. That’s a very risky bet for any kind of relationship.
To be clear, I think lege hart is exactly right when he says this:
I’ve noticed you have to be kind of minimalist when it comes to the early stages of dating.
1. Never call a girl the day after a date, and unless a situation absolutely warrants it.
2. Definitely don’t make plans with her for the day after your date.
Point is you shouldn’t call that much, it generally makes you seem less interesting when you are in front in the typical immature girl. It gives her the impression youre busy and got stuff going on.
OTOH, I think he’s going too far with this:
I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move. I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.
After that, I stopped answering her calls and you’d be surprised how far women go to have your attention.
Thanks Ramble. If you’ve thrown me into the “shallow girls who gossip about soap operas all day” category as a result, that’s up to you.
Olive, I am not throwing you into anything. But, if you watch something, you watch it.
You mentioned Soap Operas. If you watch Mad Men, you watch Soap Operas. (And, yes, it is absolutely a Soap Opera. It is simply done better, much better, than you typical Soap).
But, if the reason why you watch the Jersey Shore is so you can talk about what a train wreck Snottie is, then you are watching it for the very same reason as everyone else.
This does not bother me, but I gather that it may bother you.
So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games….
Why would I text a girl enough to keep her comfortable, when I can text her enough to keep her interested instead? Less effort on my part, more pay off. The alternative simply doesn’t make sense, there is no point in hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort…..
Mindgames vs celibacy is the choice the average guy has to make. Or he can go on some crazy quest wherein he becomes the most interesting man in the world, as per your suggestions, just to get laid.
First, let me tell you what I agree with. I agree that you shouldn’t text a girl enough to keep her comfortable. And I also agree that there is no point hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort.
I’m pretty sure that Dogsquat wasn’t implying that you should try to become the most interesting man in the world, and if he was implying that, then I’m sure he wasn’t saying that you should do it just to get laid.
By your own estimate, you’re not the average guy. If you can competently play guitar and piano, if you’re bilingual, if you’re well-traveled, if you’re tough enough to be a bouncer, and if you’re on your way towards a great career, then you’re well above average and getting laid shouldn’t be too difficult for you. If getting sex is tough, it can only mean that you’re doing something very very wrong somewhere along the line.
You suggested that playing mindgames on your last girlfriend during the 2nd year you were seeing her helped you maintain an amazing relationship. Bypassing the question of why it ended if it was so amazing, the real wonder to me is how you could consider a relationship amazing when all your thoughts and actions concerning the relationship are directed towards her reactions and not flowing naturally from your own inclinations. How do you ever relax in a relationship when you’re busy calculating how many texts to send her to keep her interested without making her too comfortable?
Back to Dogsquat’s advice to develop yourself, I think the real point of self development is to reach that point of freedom and independence at which you no longer NEED a woman. Then, any text you send is because you genuinely want to give her love and not because you’re worried about keeping her. And then, she’s never “comfortable” in the sense that she takes you for granted, because she knows you’re a man who’s going to live a wonderful and fulfilling life with or without her. And if she likes who you are, then she’s going to work at keeping you happy so that you stick around.
I’m pretty sure you haven’t reached that spot yet. The thing that most sticks out about our last conversation was you telling me that you wouldn’t raise a finger to keep a passed out girl from getting taken advantage of in the alley outside your club because your bosses only pay you to take care of things at the club itself. That you WOULD go to help the girl if your bosses told you that it was in your job description. This tells me 2 things about you:
1. You’re beta in the worst sense of the word. You’re putting following orders above any personal sense of right and wrong.
2. You care little for people.
Of course, YMMV. If playing mind games is making you happy and fulfilled, then keep at it, kiddo.
@Susan .. thanks for the kind words, and balance really is something I’m trying to find. I think for ‘good guys’ (if I could put myself in that category) a little Game is a way to get a frame of reference to judge if our behavior is appropriate and productive.
@Olive, Sassy, et al
I know guys have been ragging on Maya but I think she’s providing a good perspective. She’s not just talking about her reactions to current or former guys she likes but also about how she reacted when she *didn’t like* the guy. I think this is a key differentiation, and also something to think about when you’re tempted to respond But I Am Not Like That. I think it was Ceer that put it well upthread that behaviors women like in men they are attracted to are creepy coming from a guy they don’t like. She’s also a pretty good example of the way this differentiation happens at an almost subconcious level.
Numm,
For what it is worth, I actually agree with you, for the most part. That is, that many normal, healthy girls respond positively to otherwise insidious mindgames.
But,
Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.
Take it easy. Dogsquat detected something in your tone and responded in kind. He does not, as far as I have seen, attempt Alpha posturing on these forums. He was trying to help and, for you, it missed the mark. So be it.
I agree, Maya’s perspective is valuable here. She and I definitely don’t have the same tastes in men, but she knows what she wants and she knows how to articulate it. I think that makes all the difference. She’s not here saying “You guys, I can’t find any good men and I keep striking out every time I hook up with someone, and just because I haven’t been lucky, I conclude that all guys are assholes.” She’s also recognized, on another thread, that there aren’t that many dudes out there with all of the qualities she’s looking for. I commend her for sticking around.
If a religion can fix the SMP, I wouldn’t mind forcing it on people… The current militant atheism our society now operates under is still being forced on us.
I have 2 female friends who I can honestly say are interesting and interested in intellectual discussions.
My best friend has this problem. He’d like to talk to his roommate about metaphysics and philosophy. The typical response is either: it’s useless to discuss, or rolling his eyes and changing the subject. As a thoughtful introvert, I’ve learned that such talk rarely scares extroverts. Unfortunately, the entire culture is geared for their orientation instead.
Ceer: Our society operates under militant atheism? o.O Given that more people would elect a Muslim president than an atheist, that billboards saying such controversial stuff as “atheists are patriotic” or “you can be good without God” regularly end up with hundreds of horrified opinion pieces and letters to the editor, that the Boy Scouts does not allow atheists as members, etc., I think there is a serious Citation Needed there.
Susan: About half of Roissy’s slut tells are “if a woman likes sex, she’s likely to be a slut.” No, seriously, Roissy, without the benefit of your wisdom, I might never have realized that a woman who likes making out in bars might not be pure as the driven snow.
I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.
I dunno, I’d say the media was reflecting every male screenwriter’s sense of being a dweeb and fantasizing about getting the girl.
Although, did you see Ryan Gosling in Drive? Or Ides of March? Super-tingle.
As I recall, some of his tells are things that any half-witted woman pretending to be chaste could avoid. However, if the woman has no idea the guy is filtering for this, then yes, she’ll probably communicate during sex in any number of ways that she is an expert with the equipment
Why was this girl so eager to shut down a potentially enlightening conversation about a school project, a conversation we were supposed to have?
Because it was due tomorrow. You said it yourself, lol. Look, I enjoy long conversations about film just as much as anybody else, but if I have a project due tomorrow, along with a shit ton of other stuff to do, then I’m not gonna indulge.
But I just don’t see them USING their brains that often.
I have found it very difficult to socialize with women without artificially increasing my “girly-ness” for conversational purposes.
Your problem with girls may just be this. You’re looking down on them for being interested in whatever they’re interested in, and they can sense this attitude from you. So what if you don’t see them using their brains? Maybe they use their brains in other venues that you don’t frequent? Or they’re more socially intelligent than you are? If you don’t like hanging around them because you feel like you have to be more “girly”, then why are you hanging out with them? Why do you think being “girly” is so bad? That’s the impression I’m getting, at least.
I always hear from girls (some of whom are my closest friends) about how I’m the only girl they can relate to, all other girls are “bitchy”. They don’t realize that they are the problem. It is not hard to form genuine, great relationships with girls. And I’m saying this as someone who could write a book about my experiences with mean girls.
I’m gonna agree with Ozy here. I grew up in a very religious small town and found it to be stifling. Besides, you think Christian girls are chaste? I can count at least 6 female friends who said they would wait til marriage to have sex. None of them are married. I was the last one of them to lose my virginity.
Good God, I know. I didn’t even have a thing for blonds until him. I like how he’s good-looking, but in a manly way. He isn’t pretty the way other actors are, which is weird because I’m usually a prettboy fan. Maybe I’m growing up, lol.
You may enjoy this tumblr: http://ryangoslingvspuppy.tumblr.com/
SayWhaaat: Given the general economics of Hollywood, I’m pretty sure that the popularity of dweeby guys has nothing to do with the screenwriter (as if! Screenwriters get about as much input as the caterer) and quite a lot to do with some people liking to watch dweeby guys get the girl (particularly since it’s a new-ish trend– Hollywood will continue doing things that have stopped working because they used to work, but it won’t start doing things that don’t work). Presumably, this audience is either dweeby guys or women who like dweeby guys.
I’m pretty sure that the popularity of dweeby guys has nothing to do with the screenwriter (as if! Screenwriters get about as much input as the caterer) and quite a lot to do with some people liking to watch dweeby guys get the girl
I agree, although writers own television, and we’re seeing the same trends play out there (Big Bang Theory, the Office, Suits).
presumably, this audience is either dweeby guys or women who like dweeby guys.
Hollywood loves seeing dweeby people get the guy/girl. Though romcoms today seem to be more along the lines of, “super-pretty starlet with key flaw that a guy loves her for anyway”. -__-
Good point. I wouldn’t want to compromise the puppies’ innocence.
Speaking of the Ides of March, they filmed that movie in the greater Cincinnati area. I was super pissed to find out that they shot several parts directly downtown, literally on the same block that I work. I totally missed the opportunity to see him. I walk the same streets that he walked down everyday. They also shot a few scenes in Hall Auditorium at Miami University of Ohio. I went to that school.
I should have tried to stake out the set. Missed opportunity indeed.
I had to Google who Ryan Gosling was, and still didn’t recognize him. He looks good, but I don’t see the big deal. He does have a manlier look, probably due to the larger jawbones.
Then again I don’t really seem to have celebrity crushes often or tingle for them. I can appreciate them on an aesthetic level, but they just don’t do much for me.
My last celebrity crush was Matt Damon because of Good Will Hunting, and that was over 10 years ago. Um, actually, 14 years ago. Geez, I’m really getting old and decrepit!
You’re pissed? He supposedly lives in the East Village, very near me. (Not a stalkerish fangirl or anything, I swear, a friend told me this only recently.) I hope I never run into him or Joseph Gordon-Levitt for fear of ruining the fantasy!
Hope,
My first celebrity crush was Luke Wilson in Legally Blonde, lol. Harvard lawyers, mmm.
I’m starting to think we were separated at birth. I love Joseph Gordon-Levitt too.
He has great dark features with a boyish face. A cold shower is truly needed now.
I’ll throw one out there. One of my top three celebrity crushes is Jared Leto. I have no words when it comes to that man. His hotness shines with the intensity of a thousand suns.
Joseph Gordon-Levitt is such a beautiful man. Did you guys see him in Inception? Honestly, I kink on suits so hard. You do not want to know the thoughts that go through my brain at the sight of an attractive man in a well-fitting suit.
I used to work in a job at an international non-profit that had a strict dress policy. Every man had to wear a shirt and tie, no exceptions. A lot of guys wore full suits. It does tend to change how they get perceived, especially these days when fewer people dress so formally. It also made it hard to tell who were the “bosses,” and I imagine that actually contributed to better treatment of the regular employees in general.
A tailored suit is probably like the male version of make-up. Or stiletto heels. Probably about as uncomfortable, too, although some say it’s not bad.
Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.
No, I didn’t go out of my way to be offensive. I called you an argumentative prick in another thread. You were an argumentative prick, too, you just don’t like being called out on it. I call people in traffic worse things every day, anyway.
Jesus was the only person who seemed to calm you down, and that was with a feat of tact, logic, compassion, and sheer endurance I can’t hope to match.
“Also, sure, I am angry as fuck. If, as a man, you are aware of what is going on in the mainstream media, in the academic world and the courts, you should be angry. Or you’re not paying attention.”
You’re broadcasting that into the world. If I notice it over the internet, everyone around you probably notices it. You go on to describe yourself as pessimistic, vindictive, and cruel. Here’s an honest personal ad:
“Early twenties man with great job prospects seeks hot, nice, feminine woman for a relationship built on honesty. I’m a former varsity athlete, well-traveled, with roots (and another language!) in Western Europe. I’m quite accomplished on the piano, so your appreciation of Chopin is a must. Be advised I am pessimistic, vindictive, and will argue with nearly everything you say. I’m cruel, because you have that capacity, too. I’m also angry as fuck. Don’t ever, ever, ever suggest I change because I am perfect.”
Dude, you’ve got the building blocks. It’s your attitude that sucks.
“I’m argumentative because you and Jesus made posts that consist of you talking down to me. Your advice wasn’t new or novel, it just wasn’t practical, and then your post had entirely too many tidbits about how great you are.”
I’m not talking down to you. I’m attempting to teach you something. I’m offering another way to get what you say you want. You’re bristling. You don’t want to hear anything but,”You’re right and perfect, Nummm. You deserve it all.”
Also, I am great. I’ve worked hard to become so. It feels fantastic. You could be better than me eventually, because you’re starting off earlier and you got a better start in life. You’re also smart and arrogant, two necessary ingredients that are hard to instill.
You’re 95% there as far as having an awesome life goes, but you’re steadfastly refusing to do the last bit of work on your own. Does that mean you’re spoiled/entitled, depressed, or what? I can’t tell – I just smell something rotten. It doesn’t have to be that way, I promise you. Look within yourself, play some mindgames on your own head and see if you can’t figure it out.
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i love notes like that. wasn’t there a website about found handwritten notes? this was years ago.
There’s no aphrodisiac like indifference. Sad but true.
Is it possible that she’s engaging in a little self-mockery of her own thought processes?
Probably not, though…
@HUS
pick up the phone and call the guy.
I hope a card like this never falls out of one of my daughter’s books, after everything I’ve tried to tell her.
1) This girl probably has three or four young men desperately trying to get her attention, but she has a bad case of Maya-itis.
2) I have never seen anything quite as acrobatic or as resourceful as the subhamster whose job it is to produce excuses for the poor behavior of a man to whom a woman is attracted.
but she has a bad case of Maya-itis.
LOL poor Maya. She didn’t know what she was getting herself into.
Oh God, mule… thank you. I was thinking along the same lines (not the specific points but) as you but had no idea how to put it diplomatically. You just made my day.
My spin.
#1, Many times women don’t pick up. If he calls and you don’t answer, call him back. Don’t make him call again.
#2, Very true. I don’t have much to say to a woman. If I’m calling, she should respect the fact that I’m making an effort.
#3, Very true, see #2.
#4, Sometimes true, sometimes not.
#5, Could be true, but at least call him to confirm if you don’t hear from him within a few days before the date. Don’t do sometime awful like cancelling. Then he will won’t try again.
I agree with the other men here. I am also very sad and very sorry to see that she was in love and it was so painful. It pains me greatly. I am very sad. She was in love.
Dolphin safe tuna anyone?
Sorry Susan, but WTF happened to your site? Were you overrun by the mangina version of the stepford wives?
Per my name, I’m a lurker.
I sympathize with whomever is the author of this note. I recently reconnected with a guy friend from high school (we’d liked each other, but didn’t know it), who quickly tossed me aside. Back in August I had gone to a local university to check out a few art classes for fun, and recognized his name on a staff roster. I emailed just to say hi, we ended up trading numbers and he asked if I wanted to meet at a coffee shop. I obliged. Since we both have odd schedules, he said he would call back to officially confirm a time as we’d already picked the day.
That was sometime in mid-September — no call. After a week I called him instead, just something silly about our wacky schedules (I work nights, he’s a graduate assistant with different class times each day). Still nothing, and I never called again.
I guess I’m still very disappointed because with my night schedule it’s difficult to meet men, and this looked really promising. Sheesh, all this over a call!
***returns to lurkdom***
@dalrock
Thanks to your question, I checked and they’re all the same IP! Spam!
Aww.. that is very sweet, & sad.
Oh, wanted to add, we were friends along the likes of Dawson & Joey (Dawson’s Creek), for the lack of a better comparison.
“6. Because my writing looks horrible”
@Lurksy
Thanks for coming out, hope you will again soon. I think the question “Why didn’t he call?” has got to be the most asked question ever among women. I’ve seen countless posts by bloggers attempting to answer it. In the end, it doesn’t matter, it’s not about you. FIDO.
A window into the world of a typical non-alpha guy trying to capture the attention of a girl. Sucks, don’t it?
Susan, I hardly think personal attacks like that are going to help matters any. She’s not a dog, she’s just a heartbroken girl with appalling handwriting.
You’re teasing me right? That’s another acronym for the glossary:
FIDO = F*ck It Drive On
Added: FIDO
I’m trying to add as many to that list Isabel started but it’s proving to be a tough job. If we could get some sort of shared document where we can all write…
Also: surely Mrs. Walsh we’re all fucking adults here? We all keep it clean most of the time so I think we can indulge ourselves with a proper swear-word once again eh?
PS. the pun was intended yes
That is funny Susan. Sounds like I wasn’t too far off, just the wrong kind of robot. I was afraid you were going to tell me they were your three new favorite commenters!
I’m assuming this girl is between the ages of 9 and 12. Her handwriting and spelling are atrocious.
If that is the case, there are a multitude of reasons why a guy around that age doesn’t call. Middle school is a pretty rough time for anyone. People that young haven’t even began to learn how to navigate the tricky waters of dating.
Susan, what type of book did this note card fall out of? Perhaps it can give us some context.
Uhh. That is better than my handwriting.
☻
This is a horrible reason.
( Hmm. The girl is gone to sleep on my bed. ☺
I was on sExhibition fair at the Helsinki Ice Hall. )
@Valentin @Susan
let’s create a blog posting called “Acronyms for HookingUpSmart”
and we all can submit all of what we come across.
@
15 Susan Walsh, FIDO = Fuck it, Drive on ?
/ Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms
Hmm. I think that I go to sleep, if I found a place…
Goodnight.
lovelost,
My guess is that she has called/texted/whatever. He never got back to her. Now she doesn’t want to appear needy. So whenever she’s anxious and tempted to call, she refers to her index card to set her mind at ease and resist the urge to call again.
Ugh. And comment #26 was me.
@ 25 Kari Hurtta … oops it was on 18 Susan Walsh.
@ 24 lovelost; Good idea.
@ 17 Byron; So I’m not only one which have difficulties with these acronyms?
(Sleeping…)
My guess is that one or both of them is away at college. Probably him, since people don’t usually take out books from the local libraries when they’re off at school. That’s why she’ll see him in 2 weeks. He’ll be home for Thanksgiving.
LDR. They were dating in high school, decided to make it work even though he was going away to school, and now he’s off doing his own thing while she’s shitting herself thinking she’s losing him (which is probably correct).
Lovelost I haven’t started looking yet but there are simpler methods to find hosting for shared documents. You just go to the link and add or modify, all very simple… if I can just get off my lazy ass
Also,
You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.
@ Jesus Mahoney
The scary thing is that what you are saying probably is the case, especially this part:
If this does happen, that poor girl won’t know what hit her. She might think that everything is A-okay with them because they slept together after reuniting. To have him dump her so soon afterwards won’t be pretty.
6. He’s nuts deep in another woman.
7. He’s playing “Call Of Duty”.
Run Hamster…Run!!
@Dalrock
Doubt it. They reminded me of those guys who made the Apology to Women video. Or maybe Hugo Schwyzer.
@Kari,
By the time you read this, it is morning. Good morning! Is Finnish coffee very good?
You will be happy to know that I will soon be making a glossary with acronyms!
College students say that this is the progression:
August: Break up
Thanksgiving: Hook up like crazy
Winter Break: Break up for good
There are plenty of reasons for the guy to not call. Too little information to call alpha or beta. Most familiar with game will assume alpha because of the attraction factor. Most not familiar, may assume beta due to lack of a phone call. The girl’s note highlights how much pain an untrained girl can really put herself in by going in way over her head.
I can’t say I feel much sympathy, though. The SMP has basically told me that my own efforts to find a job and attract a girl with love are almost worthless. It will tell her something similar about her pining away. She can learn that or wind up as a cat lady. I have to live in the world our parents left for us. So does she.
LOL when I first read this, I thought it said “because he is going to see me in prison in two weeks” and spent several seconds trying to figure out why and how a note from a girl in prison ended up in a library book.
@Olive
That’s hilarious – prison! The handwriting is pretty bad…
No way this woman is 9 years old. This is a college aged person, as Jesus said. The card fell out of a novel, as it happens. Rules of Civility, by Amor Towles.
Was the book this fell out of from Lovecraft?
Good morning.
Good enough for me.
Making a morning coffee now.
☺
Hmm. A morning coffee is ready.
Got the girl on my lap.
This is not possible to know.
☻
( Waiting that the girl arrives from a riding lesson. Then must go. )
Well Kari I assume by the frequent eloquency and understanding of the topics we discuss that most are. Besides: I just wanted to make that pun you quoted more than anything…
“Rules of Civility, by Amor Towles.”
Ich habe niemals die Regel erfahren.
It’s a bit unwarranted to assume that there are four or five men competing for this girl’s attention while she’s fretting over this guy. I’ve certainly had “why won’t he call me back?” moments in which there were no other people competing for my attention. (Because I would have slept with them.) And also about, you know, guys who got their first kiss in their twenties.
Anyway, if he isn’t calling and you’re early in the relationship, he’s dumping you in a non-confrontational way. If he isn’t calling and your relationship is Facebook-official, have a discussion once he gets back about how you missed him and felt unloved and unvalued, ask why he didn’t call and work out a compromise (or break up).
LOL that note is hilarious. If it was written by a college student that’s sad. She seems to have the mental maturity and motor skills of a developmentally-challenged 12-year-old, bodes well for the “leaders of tomorrow”.
All I really have to say is welcome to the man’s world!
We take this crap (and MUCH worse) all the time – even guys I know who are fairly alpha still get return calls/texts a fraction of the time (betas virtually none). And that doesn’t account for pyrotechnic rejections, a vast array of shit tests, LMR, and other infinite stupidity thrown our way. All this, remember, while trying to control a much higher sex drive.
Awhile ago, observing how badly some women take the gentlest of rejection, I became convinced that if the roles were completely reversed, women would have a collective nervous breakdown.
Maybe he’s like me and really, really hates bad spellers.
Can we drop this euphemism and call it what it is?
This reads like sarcasm to me. For her sake, I hope I’m right (or, as she mite sae, I hop I’m write).
Poor spelling and grammar are do not necessarily mean a person is stupid. I’m sick of Internet snobs.
By definition this guy is Alpha. How do I know this? The girl in question would not care to write anything about some beta male who didn’t call her. It would be … sweet relief. I keep that in mind.
MuleChewingBriars,
“… but she has a bad case of Maya-itis”
Haha, what’s this?
I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move. I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.
Went on three dates with a girl (the third being the night after the second because she asked if I wanted to go out again). Making out was involved, along with some very close dancing. After that, I stopped answering her calls and you’d be surprised how far women go to have your attention. Calling over and over and over again everyday and now she wants to see me regularly. But it’s on my terms, and I can move on to a better situation at any time.
@lege hart,
But it’s on my terms, and I can move on to a better situation at any time.
Isn’t this the very attitude men hate in women? The brutal rejection when something better comes along? The refusal to return a call when a guy is just trying to “be nice” and reach out to a girl?
Not gonna lie, I’m so glad I’m off the market so I don’t have to worry about guys who would string me along and play stupid “push-pull” games. I don’t know why women are attracted to this shit, it turns me off and if I had other options, I’d be done with a dude like this in seconds. I mean, I guess if it gets you success with the ladies, go for it. If it was me, I’d be horrified.
Girls are so stupid, SMH.
Olive,
“Isn’t this the very attitude men hate in women? The brutal rejection when something better comes along? The refusal to return a call when a guy is just trying to “be nice” and reach out to a girl?”
Ofcourse, it’s pretty harsh but nonetheless it works. And girls have done somewhat similar thing to me that I have been interested in. Eventually you modify your strategies to whatever works. I’ve noticed you have to be kind of minimalist when it comes to the early stages of dating.
1. Never call a girl the day after a date, and unless a situation absolutely warrants it.
2. Definitely don’t make plans with her for the day after your date.
Point is you shouldn’t call that much, it generally makes you seem less interesting when you are in front in the typical immature girl. It gives her the impression youre busy and got stuff going on.
@ Lege Hart
Not to be rude, but it’s that very kind of behavior that makes women like me cautious and to wait a couple of months to have sex with men. I don’t see the point in doing stuff like this unless it’s to get off on some sort of sick ego trip.
It’s one thing to remain dominant with a woman in a relationship. It’s another thing entirely to abuse power for insecurity reasons.
What do you expect the woman you spoke of in this situation to do? Do you want her to call you constantly to feed your ego, or would you rather her not call you at all as if she could care less? Do you want to dangle contact with her like a carrot in front of her nose, or do you want to actively engage another human being?
I just don’t get it.
Olive my dear, I’m as horrified and saddened as you.
But the sad fact is the seond a guy shows what we can call the “normal” behaviour for a man that is falling for a girl like show her attention and call the day after he’s labeled as:
I think this is Susan was talking about when she wrote “guys act like jerks to get into relationships“.
A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.
OK I messed up the list, as to what a man is labeled as in above post:
A – Needy (40% chance)
B – Boring (40% chance)
C – Creepy (20% chance)
We need to stop seeing losers. We don’t need abusive people that just use you over and over again. We need real people like us.
@Valentin,
A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.
LOL now I’m actually laughing out loud. You guys, you just won’t let Maya get into her own trouble will you? On the other hand, she did say she likes to be teased.
I’m actually having a convo over in Roosh’s Brotherly Advice with Megaman about how women like me can actually find relationship-minded dudes without being strung along like a dog chasing a treat held right in front of its nose.
@lege hart,
Boo immature girls.
I say they aren’t worth your time, but I’m biased. Here’s the question: how do you know you’re not treating a non-typical girl like this? You might be filtering out some real girls. Just throwing it out there.
@Sassy,
I feel girls like us are rare, and the second guys meet us, they just lump us in with everyone else. SO frustrating, especially if you’re into a guy, and he’s into you, but you’re tempted to just stop putting forth the effort because you might be wasting your time. A good way for a potentially great relationship to go down in flames.
Wow, you sound like a real charmer. Has it occurred to you that the woman you are now dating has zero self-respect and no impulse control?
Lege: So you are deliberately arranging your romantic partner selection to look for women who have no sense of boundaries, ability to take a hint or understanding of when they’re being rejected?
I am sure this will work out very well for you and will definitely not end in tears, stalking, your car being keyed, your bunny being boiled or anything else of that ilk.
@Susan
What alternative would you suggest to him? It’s obviously working better than what he used to do.
@ Sassy6915
Lege hart’s situation is superrior to that of most guys’…he can actually hold a woman’s attention. Even having a dysfunctional relationship is better than having no one. In terms of relationship experience, you figure out what you don’t want.
@Olive
Just about every shallow woman out there think they’re deep thinking people, or they care about what matters. Then they watch shows like Jersey Shore and care about Paris Hilton.
You and Sassy may very well be these wonderful women, but I’m skeptical. I fully recognize that in wanting a LTR, you have a difficult time showing your intentions properly. As someone who’s suffered for this SMP, I find myself not minding watching women suffer.
My two coppers on lege hart’s strategy.
A way long time past, I meet my (then future and now ex) wife about three weeks before she headed to South Africa for an extended vacation with a exchange student friend. The report I heard was that said friend (who was male) got really sick of hearing about me during her visit. We were pretty much insperable as a couple after she returned. (not so much later on but that’s another story)
I met my current girlfriend in early June this year, and promptly got quite busy dealing with the sale of my childhold home after my father entered a care facility. I spent quite a few weekends away and was busy during the week dealing with stuff at home that I didn’t have weekend time to handle. Current girlfriend found excuses to come around to my place on a weeknight several times on her own initiative. After the sale was completed and I was hanging around on the weekends, the improptu visits stopped.
In other words, ‘absense makes the heart grow fonder’ is not just a poetic saying.
I also disagree that this is ‘playing a game’. I don’t text or call my siblings or other friends obsessively which is something that I’ve done in the past to a girl I’ve been infatuiated with. That obsessive behavior is a bigger change in my normal personality than communicating when the time is right. Beta guys have a tendency to go overboard in the initial stages of a relationship. If both partners are cool with it then escalating contact is fine but I definitely think it’s something where a guy has to let the woman set the pace.
@Ceer,
Just about every shallow woman out there think they’re deep thinking people, or they care about what matters. Then they watch shows like Jersey Shore and care about Paris Hilton.
I don’t give two shits about Paris Hilton. I watch JS because my BF got me hooked on it, and we like to watch it together and talk about how much of a trainwreck those people are. It’s an inside joke thing for us, but that doesn’t mean it’s my go-to conversation topic. I don’t watch any other show regularly… in fact, I mostly avoid TV.
FWIW, I have a lot of trouble conversing with women my age, because all they talk about is where they got their cute new designer boots, or what color eye shadow looks best on them, or how much they hate that guy they hooked up with on Saturday. Bo-ring.
You and Sassy may very well be these wonderful women, but I’m skeptical.
It’s not like this blog is a real-life situation, so feel free to be skeptical if that floats your boat.
I fully recognize that in wanting a LTR, you have a difficult time showing your intentions properly. As someone who’s suffered for this SMP, I find myself not minding watching women suffer.
I’m already in a LTR, but it took me awhile to figure out a good strategy because in the current SMP, I have no idea what others’ intentions are. I never knew if guys ignored me because they were shy or because they weren’t interested. But I hate stupid games, so I found someone who doesn’t play the games and we work quite well together.
I’m sorry to hear you’ve been burned in the SMP. It sounds like a lot of guys have. I wish women would stop rewarding bad behavior. I would only say that both sides have the wrong idea: girls with all of that “Boys are Stupid, Throw Rocks at Them” crap and guys with this “Women should know what it’s like to suffer too” stuff. I think tons of girls have been burned by the SMP too; they may be acting like idiots, but your attitude doesn’t really help solve the problem. The SMP will get better when both sexes make a conscious effort to change it.
“Wow, you sound like a real charmer. Has it occurred to you that the woman you are now dating has zero self-respect and no impulse control?”
She is average. It’s just a matter of an individuals perspective and how she reacts to certain things. She’s even talked about how girls treat guys like shit and how that she wishes there were more honest, nice girls around. There aren’t any mental deficiencies involved, not her at least. I can’t explain why she falls for this stupid shit though.
Is it my fault ‘game’ works and not heartfelt poetry?
@ Ceer
I have suffered from this SMP too, just like you. I, however, do not want to see either men or women suffer. I want both genders to get their sh*t together and conduct themselves like responsible adults.
I don’t get this “I’ve been hurt, blah, blah, blah, so everyone else should suffer too” attitude. We are human. We all get hurt. We can’t control how people treat us 100% of the time.
Misery loves company indeed.
@lege hart,
Do you actually like this girl, though? I’m still not sure… and I’m sure she’s not sure either…
No, it’s not your fault that game works with her. It is your fault, however, for picking girls who are easily swayed by or are dependent on game.
I don’t get this, “If I express my feelings for her, she’ll think less of me/run away/think I’m a chump” thought process.
The only girls who wouldn’t be excited about a guy admitting feelings for her would be a girl who wasn’t that into you from the beginning. Her feelings about you never changed. She probably just tried to hide her ambivalence until she couldn’t anymore.
In my personal experience, every time a guy I liked or was interested in showed me attention, I was totally happy to jump on board with him. His sudden attention or feelings for me didn’t make me like him less. It made me excited and want him more.
If a girl freaks out about a man’s feelings for her, it’s because she wasn’t into you from the beginning and your feelings signaled her time to GTFO. She doesn’t want to string you along, so she starts balking once the feelings come out. If she were into you, she would be stoked to know you like her.
That’s my 2 cents on the topic anyway.
@ Olive
I would frame it differently. I sure don’t see myself on the same side as a natural alpha who’s been swimming in poon. I also don’t see myself as being on the same side as the slut who I might bang by learning game. I USED to think of myself as being on the same side as marriage minded good girls, except… they would practically say I wasn’t for them. The big problem isn’t just that they’re rewarding bad behavior, it’s at the same time, they’re refusing to reward GOOD behavior.
Don’t get the wrong idea. I don’t ENJOY the idea of women suffering for this SMP (yet), but I hope such suffering will help bring about a shift in their priorities… or at least make them more teachable.
I agree, but at best I can help the current generation a little, and MAYBE be a small part of the solution for the next.
This is not their problem, but yours. Cultivate friendships with women who share your interests. It is not hard.
Sorry, but I just get annoyed by girls who go on about how they find it hard to relate to other girls their age, as if they are the only ones with brains. You do realize that you’re only perpetuating the stereotype of brainless women by saying that other girls only talk about frivolous things? That’s a form of sexism in itself.
I just had an intellectually stimulating conversation with a girlfriend about politics that evolved from a discussion about shoes. Sometimes I like caviar, and sometimes I like bubblegum. There is nothing wrong with that.
Olive, that is why EVERYONE that watches that show, and shows like it, watch it. It is a little bit like saying, “The only reason why I watch the local football team is because my dad got me into it and I like to root on the team“.
You should watch what you want to watch, but you are watching The Jersey Shore for the same reason as everyone else.
@Ceer,
The big problem isn’t just that they’re rewarding bad behavior, it’s at the same time, they’re refusing to reward GOOD behavior.
Yes I agree. I think (though I’m not sure) that it’s not all about behavior. Girls love good behavior, but a lot of them only love it from certain guys: the hot guys. If you don’t look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney (or some variation), good friggin’ luck. You’re out of the running right there. A typical immature girl reacts to a not-attractive guy (I mean that in the classical, mass media sense) the same way a guy reacts to a fat chick: please go away, creeper. If that sounds downright nasty, that’s because it is. Girls just don’t know how much they’re limiting themselves by only going for certain guys. And I think (though, again, I’m not sure) that a lot of girls will try to snag hot boyfriends to impress their friends/make them jealous. There’s a lot of peer pressure and competition going on behind the scenes that you probably don’t know about.
But anyway, this is exactly why a big part of Game is being physically fit. If you’ve got a nice set of abs, girls won’t care what your face looks like. One of my old friends is dating a guy who not only has a rough face, he treats her like shit. Why is she still with him? I can only guess it’s because of his “hot body” or whatever.
IDK about the suffering thing. It kind of seems like no matter how much a guy treats a girl like shit, she keeps coming back for more. And then tries to go after other like-minded guys.
Thanks Ramble. If you’ve thrown me into the “shallow girls who gossip about soap operas all day” category as a result, that’s up to you. My alternative was to lie and say I don’t watch it.
It’s always a winning move to keep a girl in the not sure zone.
I wouldn’t fuck Brad Pitt or George Clooney if you paid me. Uuuuuugh. So square-jawed and muscular and ICK.
Studies have actually shown that showing interest in someone makes them more likely to like you. If you want, I’ll track down the citation.
LOL Badger said the same thing about Jennifer Aniston the other day. I really just pick random celebrities that pop into my brain.
Oh man, Sassy, if your post is even half true, you are so different from the average woman. I mean, literally, you are unlike any other woman I have ever known. Even my mom. I cannot stress that enough. The reason people act like that, is because it works. So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games. Guess which one will always get picked.
Also, comeon, there is so much shaming language in this thread that it’s ridiculous. Lege isn’t a bad guy for doing this, he is pragmatic, no amount of internet snark will convince him that it’s a bad idea, because it is so much more successful than the alternatives you propose.
Also, lol @ Olive and this false dichotomy you’ve set up. So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.
So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.
I’m not willing to get into a big discussion about it here, but you can go read my comments on Men’s Voices Will be Heard about how I’m one of the best shit-talkers out there, and I’m looking to change my ways by finding a group of girls that isn’t gossipy.
It’s not a dichotomy, really. It’s a spectrum. I don’t fall on the same side of the spectrum as most girls. If you honestly don’t believe that I’m not very girly, as far as my real-life interests go, bully for you. You can only take my word for it.
What kind of annoys me about conversations like this is here’s what happens:
1) A guy says something along the lines of AWALT!
2) A girl replies, offering evidence of how she is not like that.
3) Several guys respond, saying “you may think you’re different, but I bet you anything you’re just like all the other bitchy stupid girls I’ve met.”
At that point, the conversation goes in circles, or it ends.
This is a serious problem for the SMP, for both sexes. For guys, they’re either “players” or “losers.” For girls, they’re all gossiping shallow bitches and they all fall for obnoxious games like the one lege hart has described (sorry lege, I know it works for you, and I’m not trying to call you out. I’m more annoyed with the girls who respond). Anyway, there’s a lot of labeling, categorizing, and throwing verbal stones.
The frustrating part is when you actually like guys who are up front and honest, but guys have already thrown all girls into the same category. It’s probably just as frustrating for guys who are labeled as losers because they’re shy.
The SMP should consist of learning about someone’s interests/character/quirks and then deciding if they are compatible with your own. If you want to be successful with tons of ladies, OK, that’s up to you. But if you want a real relationship (and this goes for both men and women), shouldn’t it be about honesty and trust? What I love about my current relationship is that we both knew we were into each other from the start, and we’re very secure about this. I don’t want to be in a relationship that keeps me on the edge; I don’t want to be afraid I’m gonna get dumped for something better, I want to love someone openly and be loved in return. And at the end of the day, I’m pretty sure that’s what everyone wants.
I’m not at all anti-Game, FWIW. I can’t deal with Roissy (I don’t think many girls can), but I really like Athol Kay’s blog. Of course, he doesn’t keep Jennifer constantly wondering if he’ll divorce her, his Game tactics are little day-to-day things.
Anyway, I’ll stop ranting now.
Listen, you watch Jersey Shore for the same reason everyone else watches Jersey Shore, ergo, atleast by that measure, you are closer to the average than you think. That’s all I’m trying to say here.
I also echo your frustrations: It is ridiculous that human relationships have turned into a game of chicken; who likes who less? However, chiming in that NAWALT and you are the exception doesn’t really do much good for anyone. No woman ever considers herself “like that” and telling us gives us no new info. I get it, nobody wants to be painted as one of the crowd, especially when the crowd is such a sorry gathering of people. But if everyone took NAWALT at face value we would all be left scratching our heads that we continue to have the issues we have, and yet, we cannot find the issues that cause them.
sorry, that last bit should read, cannot find the women that cause them.
@ Olive
I know it’s tough trying to work through misconceptions. I see them every day.
FWIW, I’ve actually seen girls who have gone for the LTR route in their early 20′s. They’re a mix of girls with a high natural tolerance to beta and ones who have been burned by alpha early and started actually thinking. The real sticking point here are:
1) it’s to the woman’s advantage to lie in order to get into a relationship.
2) the man will typically assume a woman who isn’t opening up for him is already opening up for another man
3) the woman lacks the capacity to properly assure the man that she in fact only wants him.
It’s this catch 22 that we’re trying to find a suitable counter for. Susan made a really good go at it a few posts ago. Writ large, I think it has a chance of working, but our task is to START the avalanche, not ride it.
I’d have no problem walking up to a woman and telling her I like her when I find her attractive. Women’s attraction doesn’t work nearly this fast. Any guy who doesn’t state his sexual interest within 1 minute of meeting her isn’t being “up front” because he’ll know way before then. You can only POSSIBLY get away with this if you are super attractive, and even then will fail most of the time.
THEN there’s the social rules about how you’re supposed to do this useless chatter thing when you first meet people instead of asking weighty questions so you can actually get to know the person properly.
Let me give you an example of how this works with some boiled down approaches:
This is the rough disparity in treatment between the two groups with equal game/looks.
@Nummm
I have to believe there’s a way of being effective without being a rude jerk, ignoring people and rejecting them with rudeness to get attention. It seems to me that one can have a strong frame and do very well with women who are not teetering on the edge as this woman seems to be. I agree with Ozy – this kind of girl often turns psycho quickly. Why? Because she is!
There’s an opportunity cost to that. And you’re wasting time. There’s also the very real cynicism that one develops when engaging in this kind of relationship.
@DerHahn
Surely there is a middle ground between texting oneitis and ignoring a woman when she speaks to you! I think you’ve described the right strategy, which involves expressing interest but also a very full life. Not expressing disinterest. The latter strategy will draw women desperate for male validation to boost self-esteem.
Listen, you watch Jersey Shore for the same reason everyone else watches Jersey Shore, ergo, atleast by that measure, you are closer to the average than you think. That’s all I’m trying to say here.
I totally understand what you’re saying, JS is a product of the trashy pop culture that, in a way, has helped to create the current SMP, and it doesn’t bode well for me that I watch it. However, we all have our stupid guilty pleasures, and just because I watch JS with my BF doesn’t mean I aspire to be like Snooki or something. TV is very addicting; once you start watching, no matter how much you hate something, you have to see it to the end. I once walked into a room where people were watching Saw II, and even though I hate scary movies with a passion and I can’t sleep at night when I watch them, I just couldn’t look away.
In other news, this is why I don’t generally watch TV.
No woman ever considers herself “like that” and telling us gives us no new info. I get it, nobody wants to be painted as one of the crowd, especially when the crowd is such a sorry gathering of people. But if everyone took NAWALT at face value we would all be left scratching our heads that we continue to have the issues we have, and yet, we cannot find the issues that cause them.
Yes and no. It’s been said that the regular female commenters here do not represent the majority of women. Anacaona reads and enjoys Twilight… I can’t stand those books, but that doesn’t mean I throw her into the category of bitchy women who are screwing over betas in the SMP. I think everyone here has benefited from her insights. Same with Hope and Bellita and Sassy and whoever. If we were your average girls looking to land big juicy alpha hunks, I don’t think we would’ve survived the threads here. Most of the girls who are setting the standards in the SMP probably aren’t reading blogs or forums, and my guess is they aren’t reading HUS.
I guess what I’m saying is this: it’s frustrating being a female participant on this blog and having guys jump at the chance to throw me in with everyone else. The minute I say something that could possibly be used to construe me as an average girl, or worse, a feminist, I’m immediately discredited. Today it’s because I watched JS. The other day it was because I hinted that traditional feminism was meant to create relationships in which men and women appreciated each other openly. They were things I mentioned in passing; I had other, much more valuable things to say, but suddenly I found myself in intense debates about topics that didn’t even pertain to the original discussion. I’ve had many very valuable, interesting discussions, even debates, with men on this blog. But the debates I didn’t mean to have are not productive, and I find them to be irrelevant to my purpose here. And in some instances, I just stop responding.
This blog interaction I just described is a proxy for the SMP. If you really think every girl is out to screw you over, you will throw all of them into the same category without considering what they say/how they act. A perfectly lovely girl could be miserable right now because a guy thinks it’s appropriate to keep her guessing and leave her hanging. And if she’s smart, she won’t put up with that bullshit and she’ll just leave. And then, you’ll only be filtering in the very average girls you complain about. Eventually, the stupid sluts (or whatever you want to call them) will be rewarded, and the girls who hate games will be left out of the dating pool because they refuse to participate. Sound familiar?
Also, I agree with Susan. There’s a definitely a middle ground between obsessively texting a girl you like every 5 seconds and purposely not talking to her to gain the upper hand. I would add that it’s different for every girl, though. If my BF didn’t call me all day, I would get really upset and start badgering him obnoxiously about “you never call me anymore, you don’t love me.” He’s known that almost since the beginning, and we’ve found a good balance. Social rules are important, but they only work in a very general sense.
I’m with Ceer in that I don’t seek to actively cause sexual marketplace pain. I just can’t be too bent out of shape worrying about the ill results of people making obviously bad decisions, or who insist on rejecting all but a handful of men. Too many souls to save. It’s just there’s only so many times a guy can hear “I want a nice guy who won’t cheat on me” or somesuch wish to the heavens before he just stops worrying about why she keeps dating mean guys who cheat on her and ignores the guys who wouldn’t do it, at the same time deploying some Maya-like explanation that the nice mongamous guys aren’t “interesting” enough or can’t “protect” her (an explanation that, truly, is not a rationalization).
I have, and continue to, counsel women (and men) who present with at least a smidge of humility, saying “this bad shit is happening and I can’t tell what to do. Can you help me figure this out?” That’s part of the business of my blog.
“ I would get really upset and start badgering him obnoxiously”
Hold it, only one person is going to be doing any badgering at this place.
@Ceer and Badger,
I think we’re all on the same team here. The other day I was talking to one of my female friends and she said something along the lines of “I’m so picky when it comes to guys, I just can’t seem to find any good ones out there.” I immediately told her to read this blog with a very open mind. Not sure if she’s come by, she’d likely get slaughtered in the comments, but perhaps she’s grappled a bit with the notion that she is part of the problem. I say this often, but I’ll say it again; I would’ve gotten so much out of this blog in early college, when I was single.
@Ceer,
I’d have no problem walking up to a woman and telling her I like her when I find her attractive. Women’s attraction doesn’t work nearly this fast. Any guy who doesn’t state his sexual interest within 1 minute of meeting her isn’t being “up front” because he’ll know way before then.
I guess I should’ve been more clear. By “up front,” I meant that I don’t mind if a guy tells me he’s attracted to me after we hang out for the first time. I guess a lot of girls like the thrill of the chase, but I do not. I find it stressful, and if a guy is playing this game of stand-offishness, I start to wonder if I’m not good enough for him. I don’t like that feeling, and I’m surprised that so many girls respond to this kind of interaction.
Hold it, only one person is going to be doing any badgering at this place.
Haha! At HUS the badgering is all yours. In my relationship, I’m afraid it’s a different story.
I would not call if I were in this situation. Generally I just don’t ask if I can call and follow up. If it goes a while after applying I will just call them up and see if there is any new news.
“The other day I was talking to one of my female friends and she said something along the lines of “I’m so picky when it comes to guys, I just can’t seem to find any good ones out there.” I immediately told her to read this blog with a very open mind.”
I say this not to insult your friend, but this is something I’d term “malignant hypergamy” or “pathological hypergamy,” itself an offshoot of pathological narcissism in that a woman’s attraction system is overvaluing her own SMV in judging potential partners. We have noted here how casual sex from higher-standing men can cause a woman to think she’s hot stuff but you don’t need to get boned to be picky.
Fortunately, I believe it to be treatable. Like this.
http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/a-dating-exercise-for-women/
If a reasonably attractive, reasonably affable (e.g. not ugly or a geek), non-religious woman tells me she’s never had a boyfriend, or doesn’t meet a lot of guys or something like this, I usually suspect toopickyosis (followed by tactical game failure like not giving the guy her number, frequent flaking, etc). It’s insidious in that when you suffer from it you start rejecting guys without even knowing it, it shows on your face and guys can tell not to even try, shrinking your pool further.
I guess it would be too harsh to say these women’s standards are too high. Instead I’ll say, they think they can be pickier than their market value allows them. Put another way, they can’t afford to be rejecting prospects for superficial reasons.
I remember my old girlfriend’s overweight and rude friend complain there just weren’t that many guys who fit her “standards” or something like this. I think she insisted her boyfriend make six figures, she came from a high-income but not wealthy family which partially explained the lack of class. This was just after she had directly and cruelly insulted a good friend of mine to me (my friend wasn’t there and in any case had made no acts of interest towards her). I told her innocently, ”well I guess if you have enough options that you can afford to be that picky, then more power to you.” Word got back to me later that another girl there wanted to punch me (a show of bravado I doubted she would have gone through with). They’re all still single at last check, I expect some of them will become Kate Bolicks without Kate’s money and social status.
I guess that to goes to
76 Isabel’s list:
SMH = Shaking my head
Hmm. A morning coffee seems now be ready.
☺
@ Susan, I totally disagree. I was in a wonderful relationship for almost 2 years. The first year, I kept a strong frame, and things we’re good. Then we had some issues, and I admit I should have broken up with her instead of this, but I started playing serious mindgames with her, then the relationship became amazing. I have never ever seen a girl become so enthusiastic about everything as she did, it was ludicrous. And she wasn’t crazy either, she was a perfectly respectable, perfectly sane, wonderful girl. No horrible past/relationship history, nothing. But it worked. You can’t argue with those results; you just can’t. Why would I text a girl enough to keep her comfortable, when I can text her enough to keep her interested instead? Less effort on my part, more pay off. The alternative simply doesn’t make sense, there is no point in hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort.
Also, I reject your claim that girls that respond to this are somehow damaged or psycho; they’re not. They are regular, average, normal girls. They are subject to the same psychological quirks. And for what it’s worth, this sort of flakiness will work on anyone, regardless of gender. Unless the guy has a harem going, in which case he won’t care. But for most cases, yes, this works.
@ Olive
I’m not saying you aspire to be Snooki. The average girl who watches Jersey Shore doesn’t aspire to be Snooki, she watches it for the same reasons you do. You don’t stand out from the crowd in that regard. That’s really all I am trying to say.
I say this not to insult your friend, but this is something I’d term “malignant hypergamy” or “pathological hypergamy,” itself an offshoot of pathological narcissism in that a woman’s attraction system is overvaluing her own SMV in judging potential partners.
I’ve been out of the market 5+ years, but from reading various blogs and accounts, my sense is this has really skyrocketed even the past 5 years to the point where it seems like maybe there is an epidemic of delusional hypergamy. There was another thread where I posted the comment that I think the combination of both of a lack of self-awareness and the magnitude of the hypergamous impulse makes a woman her own worst enemy in finding a fulfilling relationship. You see this where now media is reflecting reality. I think it was either a Beyonce or Rihanna song I saw posted here that literally is the anthem for hypergamy.
You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.
Word got back to me later that another girl there wanted to punch me (a show of bravado I doubted she would have gone through with). They’re all still single at last check, I expect some of them will become Kate Bolicks without Kate’s money and social status.
Just a side point thinking back to my bouncing days, but I remember being surprised at the physicality of certain women. I don’t know if it was out of control emotion, delusion, or what, but say a guy got totally out of hand.. Most guys I’d give a certain look, or a few seconds in a serious headlock, and they knew to back the f*ck down realizing the damage I could do them. It was always awkward trying to restrain women out of control because you had to be careful of just how much physicality to apply, but it almost seems with the “you go girl nonsense” that many women have forgotten just how much more physically powerful EVEN the average man is. It is almost surreal that any woman would consider initiating any kind of physical action against a guy.
I guess that this also goes to
76 Isabel’s list:
GTFO = Get the fuck out
or
GTFO = Get the fuck off
( Got a morning coffee. The girl need to be woken up. )
@Nummm,
I’m not saying you aspire to be Snooki. The average girl who watches Jersey Shore doesn’t aspire to be Snooki, she watches it for the same reasons you do. You don’t stand out from the crowd in that regard. That’s really all I am trying to say.
OK but that’s not what you said originally. Here’s what you said:
Also, lol @ Olive and this false dichotomy you’ve set up. So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.
From what I gathered, you assumed that because I watch JS, I am just as shallow and gossipy as everyone else, right? You must at least see why I responded the way I have. I don’t take lightly to being called “shallow,” particularly because my dating behavior is not based on superficiality. This has been demonstrated in many other comments I’ve posted.
Anyway, I’ve tried to explain this several times, and I’ll explain it again: this “stand-offishness” does not work on everyone…I can tell you for sure, I would absolutely hate it. Maybe some other aspects of Game would work for me, but that one does not. I would seriously become a whiny bitch if I sensed any type of disinterest or “playing it cool.” I know because a few months out of high school, I had a long-distance BF who wanted to do “weekly” phone calls and became very stand-offish. I hated that our contact was limited, I became a royal pain in his ass as a result, and we eventually broke up. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t do flakiness.
I though the stereotypical twilight reader was an dumb woman in an abusive relationship? Did they changed the haters arguments again? Why no one tells me this stuff?
Also would you feel the same if I told you that I cosplayed as Bella for the Twilight convention?
Hang in there Olive this is the way men operate men don’t nuclearly reject women sexually but they are harsh filter of allies, specially women. There is a sort of “baptism with fire” that all female commenters had to get through here (if you are brave you should check the Nice Guy TM thread and show how I was crucified there too) after that I can get away with almost everything because I earned my wings, the thing is, that is hard thing to do specially in this culture were women are cuddled and their feelings validated with “you are great he is a creep” the moment they start feel uncomfortable about something. Is not easy I didn’t had a nice time during my “trial” but it does get better also you will start to no take it personally every timea they talk about women you will seeing them as separated from you thus the “Team Woman” also wanes a bit.
One of the first HUGE deal breakers was flakiness any man that told me he was going to call me at 7 and didn’t, got asked what happened if not a good explanation and did it again I labeled him “unreliable” and never took a phone call ever again from them. I don’t know if normal women get aroused waiting like idiots for a call that never comes, but I don’t enjoy feeling like an idiot and I usually set the time aside to talk to the guy in question without distractions so the level of effort being responded with indifference, was a big turn off.
Hubby promised me from day one to write me daily after work and never ever ever failed, the days he couldn’t he will tell me in advance, and then explain what happened with details. I adore him just like that I know I can trust his word, nothing makes me wetter than feeling emotionally safe, I know I’m weird and probably boring but ces’t la vie.
I didn’t read anything below this quote in the thread.
I’m going to be harsh with you in the hopes it will eventually help you. When reading this, it will be tempting to slip into the oh so comfortable “shaming language” defense. That’s fine – see, I’m in a win-win here. Either I help you, and gain a little good karma to balance my scales with, or you decide I’m trying to shame you somehow, go your own way, and leave more women for me.
Now that you know where I sit, I’ll tell you where I stand:
You are incorrect. Those are the lazy man’s choices. Those are not the only choices you have.
Sure, that stuff will work with a few women. Most of those will be damaged somehow, women who can’t tolerate closeness and intimacy because of their flaws, real and/or perceived. You’re offering them the idea of a relationship without an actual relationship – something to dump buckets of emotional energy into without risking anything other than looking a little foolish. You’re a Placebo Relationship.
Unfortunately, you’re going to snare a small percentage of actually good women who actually like you in spite of your behavior. You’ll run them through the ringer, and then one of you will break it off with the other. She’ll conclude that all men are assholes (she’ll only be right about you, though) and you’ll decide that getting a women’s attention in short, frantic doses is good enough because you don’t know any other way.
Here is one alternative option among many. I did basically this several years ago, based on something a buddy of mine said. It is hard. You will get tired. Some of it sucks at first. It is not your only option. But it works:
1. Decide you’re going to forgo women for a year. Seriously – don’t pursue, don’t date, don’t approach. If poontang falls out of the sky onto your dick, have fun, but recognize that it’s actually putting things on hold. Don’t give me that bullshit about sex being a need, either. It’s nice, and it’s a biological drive, but it is not a need. No one has ever died from lack of sex. If they did, I’d have a bunch of emergency prostitutes in the back of my ambulance and a shitload of protocols and training on how to administer vagina to the poor unfortunates afflicted with end stage hypocoitus.
But they don’t.
And I don’t.
So quit using “But I have neeeeeeeeedddsss!” as a cop out.
2. Get serious about your career or school. If you’re doing something, you ought to be doing it well. If you’re stuck (more on that later) doing something you hate, consider it a test of discipline and will to do it well. Prove to yourself that you can do the needful, no matter how boring or hard or dirty it is. Discipline is like a muscle. If you don’t use it, it gets flabby. If you never do anything difficult, you’ll never develop the discipline to do anything worthwhile. If you shun your duties and responsibilities when they’re hard, you won’t be able to put out for yourself when you have a great opportunity – you’ll lack the ability.
Here’s a little Rudyard Kipling (from every Infantry Sergeant’s favorite poem The Heathen) to illustrate the proper mindset:
Getting clear of dirtiness, getting done with mess,
Getting shut of doing things rather-more-or-less;
Not so fond of abby-nay, kul, nor hazar-ho,
Learns to keep his rifle and himself just so!
That third line is pidgin Hindustani slang that means: abby-nay (not now), kul (tomorrow) and hazar-ho (wait a bit). So knock that shit off.
3. Go get a physical. Get your labs drawn. Address any physical problems you have. If your teeth are fucked up, get them fixed. If you wear glasses, get contacts or corrective surgery. If you throw your hands up and say,”I don’t have the money!” well, you’ve got something to save for now, don’t you? Better get on #1 then.
4. What is your passion? What mark do you want to make on the world? There are all kinds of idiot out there who talk about making films, writing, painting, music, etc. constantly as if it’s what drives their life….and they don’t do shit but talk. Those people are laughed at behind their backs. They’re in love with the image of “The Artist” but they lack the intestinal fortitude it takes to create something that might be criticized. Don’t be that guy. Those guys are wastes of good carbon atoms. The world eventually treats them as such.
This applies to anything. You’re passion doesn’t have to be artsy. I play the drums, and write a bit, but both are hobbies. I figured out neither was a passion by attempting to do them regularly. I lack the love and obsession with either to ever truly master those crafts. Getting brutally honest with myself about this freed my ego/identity to explore other areas of life, and I found something I truly am passionate about.
So find something to be passionate about. Bring something new and good into the world. It could be bringing joy to the face of a child in the burn ward of your local hospital, or an invention so bad-ass that Vince the Sham Wow/SlapChop guy will be selling millions of them.
Work on it for an hour a day, six days a week. Talking about it with your buddies at the coffee shop with your Mac open to a blank screen doesn’t count. You aren’t creating anything, you’re just bullshitting.
5. Get in shape. Find a program and stick to it. It doesn’t have to be drudgery, either. I like doing Krav Maga because I think it’s fun to punch and choke people. You might like racquetball or lifting weights or whatever. The point is to lose your gut and put on some muscle.
6. Go somewhere you’ve never been once a month. It could be a restaurant or a concert hall or some far-flung country – the point is to see new things and talk to new people. It’s also to get you out from in front of your Starcraft 2 game once in awhile.
7. Read a little Game, but try not to use it yourself for the agreed upon year. Just observe it around you. Eavesdrop on couples in the grocery store, watch it flow in the classroom or at work, think about it, see examples of it in movies or TV. Let it age in your brain like a nice Islay whisky. It’ll flavor your interactions a bit anyway, just having learned the concepts. Less is more.
8. If you like your job and look forward to work most days, skip this step.
Figure out what you really want to do for a living. I’m not going to go Full Zen on you and say you need to turn your avocation into a vocation. That’s great for some folks, but it just ain’t gonna happen in one year for most of us. That’s okay. What you can do, though, is make steps toward building a better life for yourself. So figure out what you can do to make that happen. Write a plan out, then follow it through. It might be as simple as getting a certification, or you might need to get back into/go to school. Get it done.
At the end of the year, if you’ve done everything faithfully, you’ll value yourself a lot more. Good things will come into your life much more frequently than before. Some of those things you’ll have specifically worked for, and some will seem to appear at random because of your good attitude and ethic. You’ll find women will value you more, too. You’ll find that you genuinely respect some of the women who like you. The world will seem like a better place, and life will not seem so hard – despite the hard work you do.
Think it’s bullshit? What are you bringing to the table, then? Think it’s wrong to work hard to have things and people in your life that are valuable and excellent?
Fine – more quality women for me, then. Good luck – you’re gonna need it.
@ Olive
It’s difficult to teach some girls. What I was getting at, is that an irrational girl in pain is hopefully more likely to listen to reason than an irrational girl who’s hunky dory.
Anacaona is pretty close to correct… what she describe IS typical guy behavior…any time a new social order is established, the men spar to figure out where each other stand.
@ Badger
A girl who complains about guys wants to punch you? Good for you. You’re obviously talking to them in the right manner.
Interesting thought about the malignant hypergamy.
Female Access Hollywood reporter asks Robert Pattinson: “Have you ever actually broken a headboard?”
“Yes.”
*visibly tingles*
Guilty as charge but then isn’t this a male fantasy too? I read something about a novel in which the leading man has sex with his beloved till the bed becomes splinters I think is a sci-fi or something like, it written by and for men so yeah don’t blame us for that you want to do it too. :p
Also *ginatingles* for actually quoting anything related with Twilight I always give major points to men for that. The very bulked out guy at the convention with his wife had a T-shirt “Twilight ruined my wife” That is what I call manly “I go to girly stuff with my wife and if you have a problem I have a big fist that you might want to talk to”
@SayWhaat,
Whoa, sorry, I totally missed your comment there.
This is not their problem, but yours. Cultivate friendships with women who share your interests. It is not hard.
Maybe I’m in the wrong place, or looking in the wrong places, but I have found that it generally is very difficult. I have 2 female friends who I can honestly say are interesting and interested in intellectual discussions. The rest only care about bubblegum, and the minute I discuss something else, I immediately get shot down, or I get the very slight nod and the rather blank stare, then the change of subject.
The other week I had to do an excruciating group project with a bunch of girls about a movie. This one girl would shut me down anytime I actually tried to discuss the movie (which, you know, was the point of the project). Her goal was to get the project done and get out. We have to present the project tomorrow, and I have no idea what we’re going to talk about, because all we’ve done, as a group, is put a few words on a powerpoint. Why was this girl so eager to shut down a potentially enlightening conversation about a school project, a conversation we were supposed to have? And better yet, why did all the other girls in the group defer to her?
You do realize that you’re only perpetuating the stereotype of brainless women by saying that other girls only talk about frivolous things? That’s a form of sexism in itself.
I only read it as I see it. I was part of a frivolous group of girls in college, and it got so bad that my BF pointed out that the frivolity had worn off on me. He said I wasn’t interested in intellectual discussions anymore, and he was having trouble relating to me. That’s when I knew there was a problem.
But my old friends were mildly frivolous compared to the vast majority of the girls on my campus. And now that I’m in a social work program, it seems even worse. I’m not trying to perpetuate a stereotype, and I certainly don’t think girls are brainless. But I just don’t see them USING their brains that often.
I just had an intellectually stimulating conversation with a girlfriend about politics that evolved from a discussion about shoes. Sometimes I like caviar, and sometimes I like bubblegum. There is nothing wrong with that.
That’s totally cool, it sounds like you have a great friend. In high school, my friends told me to “shut up” about politics. It wasn’t much better in college, so I stopped talking about academic stuff when my friends were around. The only thing most of them know about my first abroad experience is that I “hung around with a bunch of creepy Mexicans.” They know even less about my second abroad experience, and I doubt they’d care.
Again, maybe I’m just ignorant and not paying attention to the right groups of girls, but I have found it very difficult to socialize with women without artificially increasing my “girly-ness” for conversational purposes.
@Ana,
I though the stereotypical twilight reader was an dumb woman in an abusive relationship? Did they changed the haters arguments again? Why no one tells me this stuff?
LOL I actually just made up a fake hater argument.
Also would you feel the same if I told you that I cosplayed as Bella for the Twilight convention?
OK now I might be judging you….
Kidding, obvi. Half my bitterness at Twilight, I must admit, is because I was totally rooting for Jacob the whole time and got pissed that Bella ended up with such a cold, boring man. Jacob was hot. The whole 4th book was a waste because he was out of the picture for Bella, IMO of course.
The other half of my bitterness is aimed at the movies. I’m sorry for those who disagree but I really think neither Kristen nor Rob are very good actors. The second movie was like torture, not sure why I say through it. Taylor finally got a little better in the third movie, buuut I doubt I’ll see the 4th (and 5th?).
There is a sort of “baptism with fire” that all female commenters had to get through here
LOL yes I’ve sort of gathered this. It’s fine, when I first arrived it was immediately assumed I was a typical beta hater. Only so much I can do eh?
you will start to no take it personally every timea they talk about women you will seeing them as separated from you thus the “Team Woman” also wanes a bit.
I’ve also figured this. Which is sad, because I don’t want to seem anti-woman, but, I do get frustrated when I hear about women’s preferences and rejection methods.
Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence, Ana.
@Ceer,
It’s difficult to teach some girls. What I was getting at, is that an irrational girl in pain is hopefully more likely to listen to reason than an irrational girl who’s hunky dory.
Yes I agree with this. Which is why, whenever I hear a girl talking about being rejected or dumped, from now on I’m just going to tell her to read this blog. It’s like spreading the good news! Only, without the whole forcing religion on people thing…
I have no intentions of shaming Lege. I am simply pointing out that his technique is short-sighted, given that he’s actively filtering for women who can’t pick up on signals or accept the existence of boundaries. Women like me would assume he’s rejecting us and stop calling; women like Jane, the friendly neighborhood drama queen, would assume that he’s playing a game and call all the time. It will end in thrown plates and tears, I’m telling you.
Dogsquat: See, that is good advice. (I’d disagree about the Game bit, but then, crazy feminist over here.
) I think what a lot of people don’t get is that they have to bring value into people’s lives to get a relationship; you don’t just get one for being a half-decent person. You get one because someone else wants to be in a relationship with you. It helps to be awesome. 
Mike C,
“my sense is this has really skyrocketed even the past 5 years to the point where it seems like maybe there is an epidemic of delusional hypergamy”
I have seen this firsthand in my return to the marketplace in the last ~7 months. It is truly brutal. In the sense of it being something that touches everyone in a population, it certainly is an epidemic. The pathological hypergamist used to be a stock character in teen shows, the bitchy chick who rejected everybody. Now it’s a functioning archetype of young adult society.
“You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.”
Kate Bolick’s essay was a refreshing piece from the MSM in that it acknowledged the 80-20 paradigm, but at the end said essentially the same thing.
“There was another thread where I posted the comment that I think the combination of both of a lack of self-awareness and the magnitude of the hypergamous impulse makes a woman her own worst enemy in finding a fulfilling relationship.”
Without a doubt, the status-whoring just kills a woman’s chance at being happy. I’d add the force of a woman’s hypergamous friends to that list.
“You see this where now media is reflecting reality. ”
I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.
Is okay I’m totally the opposite of you if it was for me there wouldn’t be any Jacob at all in the saga or I would had worked him like SMeyer initially planned the small part he had in Twilight then Imprinting in Forever Dawn. I guess is the same about the movies I do like Taylor though he is a good funny kid, devoted to his work but he, Ashley Greene and Kellan Lutz have limited chops and their looks are not very malleable, they only will be selling beauty and gym products in the future. The rest of the cast will do well and I do think all of them are solid actors, including the wolf pack except for Kiowa I don’t think he can act or that he even likes it at this point, YMMV as usual.
Just think of yourself as pro-people or anti-sexist.
Thanks for giving the right words! *kissinthecheek* That was what I was trying to explain.
I have seen this firsthand in my return to the marketplace in the last ~7 months. It is truly brutal. In the sense of it being something that touches everyone in a population, it certainly is an epidemic. The pathological hypergamist used to be a stock character in teen shows, the bitchy chick who rejected everybody. Now it’s a functioning archetype of young adult society.
IMO, what you are seeing is sort of the market bubble phase. The thing about market bubbles is they always run further then you would ever expect. I remember seeing California, Arizona, Las Vegas housing prices in 2004-2005 thinking how in Godl’s name is this possible. Many of those are now down 50% off the peak. I don’t think this bubble pops until you get a much greater percentage of women hitting 35+ and not getting married or having kids. I suspect the cries of “where are all the good men” will get deafening. It will be interesting to see if this results in some sort of collective self-examination.
I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.
Very interesting point. I hadn’t previously thought of this, but I think you are right in that it reflects the perception of the average guy.
@Badger,
Without a doubt, the status-whoring just kills a woman’s chance at being happy. I’d add the force of a woman’s hypergamous friends to that list.
Yes, I totally agree. Hypergamy can rub off very easily in a group, and in some cases, it’s hard to resist. So much of it is just jealousy, though. You can hear that in the wistful sighs of “awww man if only we were all single, we could go out together and it would be so fun like old times.” There’s a certain pressure to keep going out with your friends even if you’re in a LTR, and I had to be very careful about this. The last thing I’d want would be my BF thinking I’m out there cheating, or looking for something better. But it’s a difficult balancing act of “having fun” vs. not compromising your relationship. And it gets worse when you hear that “chicks before dicks” stuff.
As for movie protagonists, I must admit I adore Michael Cera. Swoon.
@Olive
Oh shit, my bad. I’m not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I just really have no idea where I was going with that one.
@ Dogsquat
LOL.
I am graduating this university this year, going into a career I will really enjoy. I was a varsity athlete that made the deans list for my first 3 years, before I quit varsity in order to focus on school more. LOL @ lose your gut. Lose my gut my ass, lol. I have been in better shape than 90% of human beings on this planet at one point.
I am also a classically trained guitarist, and pianist. By classically, I mean in the Spanish style, finger picking, all that jazz. None of this “chugging away with power chords that I learned from youtube” garbage that is so common now a days. My mother, being the patriot she is, insisted I study Chopin extensively;I can literally plays dozens of his Polonaises on the piano for you. Music is very enjoyable for me, a passion, if you will
I have lived in Italy, and in Germany, seen Austria, France and Switzerland aswell. I also learned another language, in order to better communicate with my mom and my grandparents. It wasn’t easy, I still can’t spell for the life of me or read complex writings, but I am totally fluent. I regularly attend art shows, concerts, or other events that my university throws.
So now that we’ve establish that I am not a fat, video game addicted anti social loser, do you have any advice?
You and Susan both make the claim that this sort of namby pamby mind game stuff doesn’t work on women, but it does! I have used it successfully! I have seen it used successfully! And this was all with perfectly healthy, psychologically normal girls. Women will agonize over why he didn’t call, why he didn’t text back, etc. This doesn’t make them low quality, it makes them people.
@Nummm
LOL yourself.
Game works. I’ve never denied it.
Your dilemma was “mindgames or celibacy”. My alternative was for you to get some shit going on in your life, make you an interesting person, like.
You report back that you are actually King Shit of Turd Mountain - interesting as Indiana Jones and more accomplished than Miyamoto Musashi. Okay, then….why can’t you find a girl you like and respect?
You might not be looking in the right places. Yes, looking. I’m a non-traditional “college kid” at a big school right now, and I observe the goings on with interest. The local “high value” males sort of remind me of crocodiles or other ambush predators. They position themselves, then wait for something dumb to come waltzing up. They pounce, expend a little energy, and either get what they’re after or give up quickly before too much energy is spent. Perhaps another strategy is in order.
You might be impatient.
It could also be your personality. I remember you from another thread were you had an extensive chat with Jesus Mahoney, You were such an argumentative prick that porcupines fled the mere rumor of your approach.
I know this is just the internet and everything, but I’ve met and become friends in real life with enough people from forums and blogs to know that a good bit of someone’s natural personality comes through in their writing. You seem angry, pessimistic, and a little vindictive. Who wants to be around someone like that? Not the kind of girl you’re looking for, I think.
Dude, I might be wrong. I hope I am, actually. You could be happier than Richard Simmons for all I know. I’m just some guy on the internet.
This might sound like a bit of gladhanding, but I mean no offense. I gave you my best guess, you said I was wrong, and I tried again. I have a sneaking suspicion that you’ll deny these guesses, too, since they’re not very flattering. Who knows.
What do you think the problem is?
Carry On with the Plan of the Day,
Dogsquat
@?,
A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.
If you present yourself as a desperate, needy and clingy person in the first five minutes after meeting a girl you can be sure you will drive most of them away. Are you attracted to desperate women?
@Badger,
… deploying some Maya-like explanation that the nice mongamous guys aren’t “interesting” enough or can’t “protect” her.
Where did I say that about nice guys? I’m sorry I used the word shy – this was probably just projection – I’m shy myself and seems that I like to talk shit about people with similar flaws as I have … However, it’s true that I only like guys with whom I can feel safe with. I don’t want a child to cling on me – I’m looking for a guy I can cling to. But this is just my own preference, not sure why it bothers you so much …
@Mike C,
You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.
I never said that. But you have to know that if you want to buy youth and beauty you need something to pay for that. What do you have?
Dogsquat
Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.
Mindgames vs celibacy is the choice the average guy has to make. Or he can go on some crazy quest wherein he becomes the most interesting man in the world, as per your suggestions, just to get laid. Why would somebody who wants to get laid take a year off from getting laid, and spend so much time on stuff they don’t care about (else, they’d probably already be doing it) when there is a simpler solution (even if you don’t want to admit that mindgames work on non-psychologically damaged women). Now if someone wants to turn their life around, then yes, go for it. Throw yourself into the Dogsquat life program as hard as you can.
Also, sure, I am angry as fuck. If, as a man, you are aware of what is going on in the mainstream media, in the academic world and the courts, you should be angry. Or you’re not paying attention.
Am I pessimistic? You bet the fuck I am pessimistic. For the above reasons. Vindictive? Sure, why not. I can be cruel, everyone has the capacity for cruelty.
I’m argumentative because you and Jesus made posts that consist of you talking down to me. Your advice wasn’t new or novel, it just wasn’t practical, and then your post had entirely too many tidbits about how great you are. I get it, you are a big time blogger, when people read your name on the screen, women get tingly and men avert their eyes. I’ll cut the crap if you will.
I’ll second that. I’m a sucker for earnestness in people. If someone has that quality I’ll forgive almost everything else. I actually recall one very specific moment at a lunch table in B-school when my husband said something incredibly earnest and I realized what a good man he was – that’s when I went from crushing on him to wanting to really make it happen.
Earnestness is not the same as humility, but I find they often go hand in hand.
I’m more and more convinced of this. I think people get a lot of data from one another totally at a subconscious level. We know they do hormonally, it makes sense that they also take the emotional temperature of people when meeting them or observing them. Negative energy must be a hindrance if that is true. I’ve been thinking about this with regard to promiscuity/carousel riding lately. While I don’t think “slut tells” as listed by Roissy are always evident, I think there might be some kind of trail of clues that is reflected in the woman’s emotional state, and that is telegraphed.
Of course, a woman having a ton of sex “like a guy” and loving it is not going to be having that anxiety, stress, etc. so may project a very positive energy. In that case I presume she’d be open about it.
@Nummm
I’m pro-Game, and we all know a bit of push pull is very effective. But there is a big difference between pulling back, creating an opportunity for a woman to want you, and being overtly rejecting. The latter approach filters for women who will persevere in the face of repeated rejection, who are usually on the needy and desperate end of the spectrum. They’ll do just about anything for male validation. That’s a very risky bet for any kind of relationship.
To be clear, I think lege hart is exactly right when he says this:
OTOH, I think he’s going too far with this:
Olive, I am not throwing you into anything. But, if you watch something, you watch it.
You mentioned Soap Operas. If you watch Mad Men, you watch Soap Operas. (And, yes, it is absolutely a Soap Opera. It is simply done better, much better, than you typical Soap).
But, if the reason why you watch the Jersey Shore is so you can talk about what a train wreck Snottie is, then you are watching it for the very same reason as everyone else.
This does not bother me, but I gather that it may bother you.
NUMMM
First, let me tell you what I agree with. I agree that you shouldn’t text a girl enough to keep her comfortable. And I also agree that there is no point hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort.
I’m pretty sure that Dogsquat wasn’t implying that you should try to become the most interesting man in the world, and if he was implying that, then I’m sure he wasn’t saying that you should do it just to get laid.
By your own estimate, you’re not the average guy. If you can competently play guitar and piano, if you’re bilingual, if you’re well-traveled, if you’re tough enough to be a bouncer, and if you’re on your way towards a great career, then you’re well above average and getting laid shouldn’t be too difficult for you. If getting sex is tough, it can only mean that you’re doing something very very wrong somewhere along the line.
You suggested that playing mindgames on your last girlfriend during the 2nd year you were seeing her helped you maintain an amazing relationship. Bypassing the question of why it ended if it was so amazing, the real wonder to me is how you could consider a relationship amazing when all your thoughts and actions concerning the relationship are directed towards her reactions and not flowing naturally from your own inclinations. How do you ever relax in a relationship when you’re busy calculating how many texts to send her to keep her interested without making her too comfortable?
Back to Dogsquat’s advice to develop yourself, I think the real point of self development is to reach that point of freedom and independence at which you no longer NEED a woman. Then, any text you send is because you genuinely want to give her love and not because you’re worried about keeping her. And then, she’s never “comfortable” in the sense that she takes you for granted, because she knows you’re a man who’s going to live a wonderful and fulfilling life with or without her. And if she likes who you are, then she’s going to work at keeping you happy so that you stick around.
I’m pretty sure you haven’t reached that spot yet. The thing that most sticks out about our last conversation was you telling me that you wouldn’t raise a finger to keep a passed out girl from getting taken advantage of in the alley outside your club because your bosses only pay you to take care of things at the club itself. That you WOULD go to help the girl if your bosses told you that it was in your job description. This tells me 2 things about you:
1. You’re beta in the worst sense of the word. You’re putting following orders above any personal sense of right and wrong.
2. You care little for people.
Of course, YMMV. If playing mind games is making you happy and fulfilled, then keep at it, kiddo.
@Nummm
JM and Dogsquat have said it all.
@Susan .. thanks for the kind words, and balance really is something I’m trying to find. I think for ‘good guys’ (if I could put myself in that category) a little Game is a way to get a frame of reference to judge if our behavior is appropriate and productive.
@Olive, Sassy, et al
I know guys have been ragging on Maya but I think she’s providing a good perspective. She’s not just talking about her reactions to current or former guys she likes but also about how she reacted when she *didn’t like* the guy. I think this is a key differentiation, and also something to think about when you’re tempted to respond But I Am Not Like That. I think it was Ceer that put it well upthread that behaviors women like in men they are attracted to are creepy coming from a guy they don’t like. She’s also a pretty good example of the way this differentiation happens at an almost subconcious level.
Numm,
For what it is worth, I actually agree with you, for the most part. That is, that many normal, healthy girls respond positively to otherwise insidious mindgames.
But,
Take it easy. Dogsquat detected something in your tone and responded in kind. He does not, as far as I have seen, attempt Alpha posturing on these forums. He was trying to help and, for you, it missed the mark. So be it.
@DerHahn,
I agree, Maya’s perspective is valuable here. She and I definitely don’t have the same tastes in men, but she knows what she wants and she knows how to articulate it. I think that makes all the difference. She’s not here saying “You guys, I can’t find any good men and I keep striking out every time I hook up with someone, and just because I haven’t been lucky, I conclude that all guys are assholes.” She’s also recognized, on another thread, that there aren’t that many dudes out there with all of the qualities she’s looking for. I commend her for sticking around.
@ Olive
If a religion can fix the SMP, I wouldn’t mind forcing it on people… The current militant atheism our society now operates under is still being forced on us.
I have 2 female friends who I can honestly say are interesting and interested in intellectual discussions.
My best friend has this problem. He’d like to talk to his roommate about metaphysics and philosophy. The typical response is either: it’s useless to discuss, or rolling his eyes and changing the subject. As a thoughtful introvert, I’ve learned that such talk rarely scares extroverts. Unfortunately, the entire culture is geared for their orientation instead.
Ceer: Our society operates under militant atheism? o.O Given that more people would elect a Muslim president than an atheist, that billboards saying such controversial stuff as “atheists are patriotic” or “you can be good without God” regularly end up with hundreds of horrified opinion pieces and letters to the editor, that the Boy Scouts does not allow atheists as members, etc., I think there is a serious Citation Needed there.
Susan: About half of Roissy’s slut tells are “if a woman likes sex, she’s likely to be a slut.” No, seriously, Roissy, without the benefit of your wisdom, I might never have realized that a woman who likes making out in bars might not be pure as the driven snow.
I dunno, I’d say the media was reflecting every male screenwriter’s sense of being a dweeb and fantasizing about getting the girl.
Although, did you see Ryan Gosling in Drive? Or Ides of March? Super-tingle.
Ryan Gosling is tingle inducing no matter what he does or what he wears.
That man could make wearing a burlap sack look sexy.
Good god that man……………drooooooool.
He is by far one of my top celebrity crushes.
@Ozy
As I recall, some of his tells are things that any half-witted woman pretending to be chaste could avoid. However, if the woman has no idea the guy is filtering for this, then yes, she’ll probably communicate during sex in any number of ways that she is an expert with the equipment
Olive,
Because it was due tomorrow. You said it yourself, lol. Look, I enjoy long conversations about film just as much as anybody else, but if I have a project due tomorrow, along with a shit ton of other stuff to do, then I’m not gonna indulge.
Your problem with girls may just be this. You’re looking down on them for being interested in whatever they’re interested in, and they can sense this attitude from you. So what if you don’t see them using their brains? Maybe they use their brains in other venues that you don’t frequent? Or they’re more socially intelligent than you are? If you don’t like hanging around them because you feel like you have to be more “girly”, then why are you hanging out with them? Why do you think being “girly” is so bad? That’s the impression I’m getting, at least.
I always hear from girls (some of whom are my closest friends) about how I’m the only girl they can relate to, all other girls are “bitchy”. They don’t realize that they are the problem. It is not hard to form genuine, great relationships with girls. And I’m saying this as someone who could write a book about my experiences with mean girls.
@Ceer,
I’m gonna agree with Ozy here. I grew up in a very religious small town and found it to be stifling. Besides, you think Christian girls are chaste? I can count at least 6 female friends who said they would wait til marriage to have sex. None of them are married. I was the last one of them to lose my virginity.
Sassy, re: Ryan Gosling.
Good God, I know. I didn’t even have a thing for blonds until him. I like how he’s good-looking, but in a manly way. He isn’t pretty the way other actors are, which is weird because I’m usually a prettboy fan. Maybe I’m growing up, lol.
You may enjoy this tumblr: http://ryangoslingvspuppy.tumblr.com/
@ Say Whaat
Thanks for the link. I’m resisting the urge to mount my computer as we speak.
Being that hot should be a crime. Swoon.
SayWhaaat: Given the general economics of Hollywood, I’m pretty sure that the popularity of dweeby guys has nothing to do with the screenwriter (as if! Screenwriters get about as much input as the caterer) and quite a lot to do with some people liking to watch dweeby guys get the girl (particularly since it’s a new-ish trend– Hollywood will continue doing things that have stopped working because they used to work, but it won’t start doing things that don’t work). Presumably, this audience is either dweeby guys or women who like dweeby guys.
Ozy,
I agree, although writers own television, and we’re seeing the same trends play out there (Big Bang Theory, the Office, Suits).
Hollywood loves seeing dweeby people get the guy/girl. Though romcoms today seem to be more along the lines of, “super-pretty starlet with key flaw that a guy loves her for anyway”. -__-
Sassy,
Careful with that link, there are puppies there.
@ Say Whaat
Good point. I wouldn’t want to compromise the puppies’ innocence.
Speaking of the Ides of March, they filmed that movie in the greater Cincinnati area. I was super pissed to find out that they shot several parts directly downtown, literally on the same block that I work. I totally missed the opportunity to see him. I walk the same streets that he walked down everyday. They also shot a few scenes in Hall Auditorium at Miami University of Ohio. I went to that school.
I should have tried to stake out the set. Missed opportunity indeed.
I had to Google who Ryan Gosling was, and still didn’t recognize him. He looks good, but I don’t see the big deal. He does have a manlier look, probably due to the larger jawbones.
Then again I don’t really seem to have celebrity crushes often or tingle for them. I can appreciate them on an aesthetic level, but they just don’t do much for me.
My last celebrity crush was Matt Damon because of Good Will Hunting, and that was over 10 years ago. Um, actually, 14 years ago. Geez, I’m really getting old and decrepit!
Sassy,
You’re pissed? He supposedly lives in the East Village, very near me. (Not a stalkerish fangirl or anything, I swear, a friend told me this only recently.) I hope I never run into him or Joseph Gordon-Levitt for fear of ruining the fantasy!
Hope,
My first celebrity crush was Luke Wilson in Legally Blonde, lol. Harvard lawyers, mmm.
@ Say Whaat
I’m starting to think we were separated at birth. I love Joseph Gordon-Levitt too.
He has great dark features with a boyish face. A cold shower is truly needed now.
I’ll throw one out there. One of my top three celebrity crushes is Jared Leto. I have no words when it comes to that man. His hotness shines with the intensity of a thousand suns.
Joseph Gordon-Levitt is such a beautiful man. Did you guys see him in Inception? Honestly, I kink on suits so hard. You do not want to know the thoughts that go through my brain at the sight of an attractive man in a well-fitting suit.
@ Ozy
Yes, I saw him in Inception. I went to the theaters to see it and remember how he took my breath away when I saw him in his suit. That man is fine.
Ditto on your sentiments about suits. Men should wear them more often honestly. Nothing is sexier than a man in a suit to me.
Cure for the Gosling cravings:
Lars and the Real Girl, followed by Blue Valentine. Warning: this is irreversible.
I used to work in a job at an international non-profit that had a strict dress policy. Every man had to wear a shirt and tie, no exceptions. A lot of guys wore full suits. It does tend to change how they get perceived, especially these days when fewer people dress so formally. It also made it hard to tell who were the “bosses,” and I imagine that actually contributed to better treatment of the regular employees in general.
A tailored suit is probably like the male version of make-up. Or stiletto heels. Probably about as uncomfortable, too, although some say it’s not bad.
No, I didn’t go out of my way to be offensive. I called you an argumentative prick in another thread. You were an argumentative prick, too, you just don’t like being called out on it. I call people in traffic worse things every day, anyway.
Jesus was the only person who seemed to calm you down, and that was with a feat of tact, logic, compassion, and sheer endurance I can’t hope to match.
You’re broadcasting that into the world. If I notice it over the internet, everyone around you probably notices it. You go on to describe yourself as pessimistic, vindictive, and cruel. Here’s an honest personal ad:
“Early twenties man with great job prospects seeks hot, nice, feminine woman for a relationship built on honesty. I’m a former varsity athlete, well-traveled, with roots (and another language!) in Western Europe. I’m quite accomplished on the piano, so your appreciation of Chopin is a must. Be advised I am pessimistic, vindictive, and will argue with nearly everything you say. I’m cruel, because you have that capacity, too. I’m also angry as fuck. Don’t ever, ever, ever suggest I change because I am perfect.”
Dude, you’ve got the building blocks. It’s your attitude that sucks.
I’m not talking down to you. I’m attempting to teach you something. I’m offering another way to get what you say you want. You’re bristling. You don’t want to hear anything but,”You’re right and perfect, Nummm. You deserve it all.”
Also, I am great. I’ve worked hard to become so. It feels fantastic. You could be better than me eventually, because you’re starting off earlier and you got a better start in life. You’re also smart and arrogant, two necessary ingredients that are hard to instill.
You’re 95% there as far as having an awesome life goes, but you’re steadfastly refusing to do the last bit of work on your own. Does that mean you’re spoiled/entitled, depressed, or what? I can’t tell – I just smell something rotten. It doesn’t have to be that way, I promise you. Look within yourself, play some mindgames on your own head and see if you can’t figure it out.
Choose to be happy. I wish you good luck, Nummm.
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