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I Guess He Didn’t Call

This fell out of a library book I picked up today.

 

 

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  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    i love notes like that. wasn’t there a website about found handwritten notes? this was years ago.

  • H man

    There’s no aphrodisiac like indifference. Sad but true.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Is it possible that she’s engaging in a little self-mockery of her own thought processes?

    Probably not, though…

     

  • lovelost

    @HUS

    pick up the phone and call the guy.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    I hope a card like this never falls out of one of my daughter’s books, after everything I’ve tried to tell her.

    1) This girl probably has three or four young men desperately trying to get her attention, but she has a bad case of Maya-itis.

    2) I have never seen anything quite as acrobatic or as resourceful as the subhamster whose job it is to produce excuses for the poor behavior of a man to whom a woman is attracted.

  • Olive

    but she has a bad case of Maya-itis.

    LOL poor Maya. She didn’t know what she was getting herself into. :-P

  • Valentin

    Oh God, mule… thank you. I was thinking along the same lines (not the specific points but) as you but had no idea how to put it diplomatically. You just made my day.

  • Jonny

    My spin.

    #1, Many times women don’t pick up. If he calls and you don’t answer, call him back. Don’t make him call again.

    #2, Very true. I don’t have much to say to a woman. If I’m calling, she should respect the fact that I’m making an effort.

    #3, Very true, see #2.

    #4, Sometimes true, sometimes not.

    #5, Could be true, but at least call him to confirm if you don’t hear from him within a few days before the date. Don’t do sometime awful like cancelling. Then he will won’t try again.

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    I agree with the other men here.  I am also very sad and very sorry to see that she was in love and it was so painful.  It pains me greatly.  I am very sad.  She was in love.

    Dolphin safe tuna anyone?

    Sorry Susan, but WTF happened to your site?  Were you overrun by the mangina version of the stepford wives?  :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dalrock
      Thanks to your question, I checked and they’re all the same IP! Spam!

  • lurksy

    Per my name, I’m a lurker. :)

    I sympathize with whomever is the author of this note. I recently reconnected with a guy friend from high school (we’d liked each other, but didn’t know it), who quickly tossed me aside. Back in August I had gone to a local university to check out a few art classes for fun, and recognized his name on a staff roster. I emailed just to say hi, we ended up trading numbers and he asked if I wanted to meet at a coffee shop. I obliged. Since we both have odd schedules, he said he would call back to officially confirm a time as we’d already picked the day.

    That was sometime in mid-September — no call. After a week I called him instead, just something silly about our wacky schedules (I work nights, he’s a graduate assistant with different class times each day). Still nothing, and I never called again.

    I guess I’m still very disappointed because with my night schedule it’s difficult to meet men, and this looked really promising. Sheesh, all this over a call!

    ***returns to lurkdom***

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lurksy
      Thanks for coming out, hope you will again soon. I think the question “Why didn’t he call?” has got to be the most asked question ever among women. I’ve seen countless posts by bloggers attempting to answer it. In the end, it doesn’t matter, it’s not about you. FIDO.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

     

     

     

    Aww.. that is very sweet, & sad.

  • lurksy

    Oh, wanted to add, we were friends along the likes of Dawson & Joey (Dawson’s Creek), for the lack of a better comparison.

  • The CronoLink

    “6. Because my writing looks horrible”

  • DerHahn

    A window into the world of a typical non-alpha guy trying to capture the attention of a girl.  Sucks, don’t it?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    In the end, it doesn’t matter, it’s not about you. FIDO.

    Susan, I hardly think personal attacks like that are going to help matters any. She’s not a dog, she’s just a heartbroken girl with appalling handwriting.

     

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, I hardly think personal attacks like that are going to help matters any. She’s not a dog, she’s just a heartbroken girl with appalling handwriting.

      You’re teasing me right? That’s another acronym for the glossary:

      FIDO = F*ck It Drive On

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    :)

  • Valentin

    Added: FIDO

    I’m trying to add as many to that list Isabel started but it’s proving to be a tough job. If we could get some sort of shared document where we can all write…

    Also: surely Mrs. Walsh we’re all fucking adults here? We all keep it clean most of the time so I think we can indulge ourselves with a proper swear-word once again eh?

     

    PS. the pun was intended yes

  • Pingback: The mangina version of the Stepford wives « Rivelino in Spain

  • http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Dalrock

    That is funny Susan.  Sounds like I wasn’t too far off, just the wrong kind of robot.  I was afraid you were going to tell me they were your three new favorite commenters!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dalrock

      I was afraid you were going to tell me they were your three new favorite commenters!

      Doubt it. They reminded me of those guys who made the Apology to Women video. Or maybe Hugo Schwyzer.

  • Sassy6519

    I’m assuming this girl is between the ages of 9 and 12. Her handwriting and spelling are atrocious.

    If that is the case, there are a multitude of reasons why a guy around that age doesn’t call. Middle school is a pretty rough time for anyone. People that young haven’t even began to learn how to navigate the tricky waters of dating.

    Susan, what type of book did this note card fall out of? Perhaps it can give us some context.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    14 The CronoLink wrote:

    “6. Because my writing looks horrible”

    Uhh. That is better than my handwriting.

    This is a horrible reason.

     

     


    ( Hmm. The girl is gone to sleep on my bed.  ☺
    I was on sExhibition fair at the Helsinki Ice Hall. )

  • lovelost

    @Valentin @Susan

    let’s create a blog posting called “Acronyms for HookingUpSmart”

    and we all can submit all of what we come across.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @ 15 Susan Walsh, FIDO = Fuck it, Drive on ?

     

     

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms


    Hmm. I think that I go to sleep, if I found a place…

    Goodnight.

  • Anonymous

    lovelost,

    pick up the phone and call the guy.

    My guess is that she has called/texted/whatever. He never got back to her. Now she doesn’t want to appear needy. So whenever she’s anxious and tempted to call, she refers to her index card to set her mind at ease and resist the urge to call again.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ugh. And comment #26 was me.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @ 25 Kari Hurtta … oops it was on 18 Susan Walsh.

    @ 24 lovelost; Good idea.

    @ 17 Byron; So I’m not only one which have difficulties with these acronyms?

     

    (Sleeping…)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kari,

      By the time you read this, it is morning. Good morning! Is Finnish coffee very good?

      You will be happy to know that I will soon be making a glossary with acronyms!

  • Jesus Mahoney

    My guess is that one or both of them is away at college. Probably him, since people don’t usually take out books from the local libraries when they’re off at school. That’s why she’ll see him in 2 weeks. He’ll be home for Thanksgiving.

    LDR. They were dating in high school, decided to make it work even though he was going away to school, and now he’s off doing his own thing while she’s shitting herself thinking she’s losing him (which is probably correct).

  • Valentin

    Lovelost I haven’t started looking yet but there are simpler methods to find hosting for shared documents. You just go to the link and add or modify, all very simple… if I can just get off my lazy ass

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Also,

    You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.

      College students say that this is the progression:

      August: Break up

      Thanksgiving: Hook up like crazy

      Winter Break: Break up for good

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jesus Mahoney

    The scary thing is that what you are saying probably is the case, especially this part:

    You can bet that when he comes home for Thanksgiving, he makes sure to wait until after they’ve fucked before telling her he thinks they should see other people.

     

    If this does happen, that poor girl won’t know what hit her. She might think that everything is A-okay with them because they slept together after reuniting. To have him dump her so soon afterwards won’t be pretty.

  • Johnny Milfquest

    6. He’s nuts deep in another woman.

    7. He’s playing “Call Of Duty”.

  • MRKTGNS

    Run Hamster…Run!!

  • Ceer

    There are plenty of reasons for the guy to not call.  Too little information to call alpha or beta.  Most familiar with game will assume alpha because of the attraction factor.  Most not familiar, may assume beta due to lack of a phone call.  The girl’s note highlights how much pain an untrained girl can really put herself in by going in way over her head.

    I can’t say I feel much sympathy, though.  The SMP has basically told me that my own efforts to find a job and attract a girl with love are almost worthless.  It will tell her something similar about her pining away.  She can learn that or wind up as a cat lady.  I have to live in the world our parents left for us.  So does she.

  • Olive

    LOL when I first read this, I thought it said “because he is going to see me in prison in two weeks” and spent several seconds trying to figure out why and how a note from a girl in prison ended up in a library book.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      That’s hilarious – prison! The handwriting is pretty bad…

      No way this woman is 9 years old. This is a college aged person, as Jesus said. The card fell out of a novel, as it happens. Rules of Civility, by Amor Towles.

  • Pip

    Was the book this fell out of from Lovecraft?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    36 Susan Walsh wrote:

    By the time you read this, it is morning. Good morning!

    Good morning.

    Is Finnish coffee very good?

    Good enough for me.
    Making a morning coffee now.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    29 Jesus Mahoney; LDR = long-distance relationship, I assume.


    Hmm.  A morning coffee is ready.
    Got the girl on my lap.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    20 Valentin wrote:

    we’re all fucking adults here?

    This is not possible to know.

     

     


    ( Waiting that the girl arrives from a riding lesson. Then must go. )

  • Valentin

    Well Kari I assume by the frequent eloquency and understanding of the topics we discuss that most are. Besides: I just wanted to make that pun you quoted more than anything…

  • Desiderius

    “Rules of Civility, by Amor Towles.”

    Ich habe niemals die Regel erfahren.

  • ozymandias

    It’s a bit unwarranted to assume that there are four or five men competing for this girl’s attention while she’s fretting over this guy. I’ve certainly had “why won’t he call me back?” moments in which there were no other people competing for my attention. (Because I would have slept with them.) And also about, you know, guys who got their first kiss in their twenties.

    Anyway, if he isn’t calling and you’re early in the relationship, he’s dumping you in a non-confrontational way. If he isn’t calling and your relationship is Facebook-official, have a discussion once he gets back about how you missed him and felt unloved and unvalued, ask why he didn’t call and work out a compromise (or break up).

  • AlphaRising

    LOL that note is hilarious. If it was written by a college student that’s sad. She seems to have the mental maturity and motor skills of a developmentally-challenged 12-year-old, bodes well for the “leaders of tomorrow”.

    All I really have to say is welcome to the man’s world!

    We take this crap (and MUCH worse) all the time – even guys I know who are fairly alpha still get return calls/texts a fraction of the time (betas virtually none). And that doesn’t account for pyrotechnic rejections, a vast array of shit tests, LMR, and other infinite stupidity thrown our way. All this, remember, while trying to control a much higher sex drive.

    Awhile ago, observing how badly some women take the gentlest of rejection, I became convinced that if the roles were completely reversed, women would have a collective nervous breakdown.

  • Michael Maier

    Maybe he’s like me and really, really hates bad spellers.

  • Tom

    Thanksgiving: Hook up like crazy

    Can we drop this euphemism and call it what it is?

  • Passer_By

    This reads like sarcasm to me. For her sake, I hope I’m right (or, as she mite sae, I hop I’m write).

     

  • GudEnuf

    Poor spelling and grammar are do not necessarily mean a person is stupid. I’m sick of Internet snobs.

     

     

  • http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com whiskey

    By definition this guy is Alpha. How do I know this? The girl in question would not care to write anything about some beta male who didn’t call her. It would be … sweet relief. I keep that in mind.

  • Maya

    MuleChewingBriars,

    “… but she has a bad case of Maya-itis”

    Haha, what’s this?

  • http://www.google.com lege hart

    I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move.  I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.

    Went on three dates with a girl (the third being the night after the second because she asked if I wanted to go out again). Making out was involved, along with some very close dancing. After that, I stopped answering her calls and you’d be surprised how far women go to have your attention.  Calling over and over and over again everyday and now she wants to see me regularly. But it’s on my terms, and I can move on to a better situation at any time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move. I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.

      Wow, you sound like a real charmer. Has it occurred to you that the woman you are now dating has zero self-respect and no impulse control?

  • Olive

    @lege hart,

    But it’s on my terms, and I can move on to a better situation at any time.

    Isn’t this the very attitude men hate in women? The brutal rejection when something better comes along? The refusal to return a call when a guy is just trying to “be nice” and reach out to a girl?

    Not gonna lie, I’m so glad I’m off the market so I don’t have to worry about guys who would string me along and play stupid “push-pull” games. I don’t know why women are attracted to this shit, it turns me off and if I had other options, I’d be done with a dude like this in seconds. I mean, I guess if it gets you success with the ladies, go for it. If it was me, I’d be horrified.

    Girls are so stupid, SMH.

  • http://www.google.com lege hart

    Olive,

    “Isn’t this the very attitude men hate in women? The brutal rejection when something better comes along? The refusal to return a call when a guy is just trying to “be nice” and reach out to a girl?”

    Ofcourse, it’s pretty harsh but nonetheless it works. And girls have done somewhat similar thing to me that I have been interested in. Eventually you modify your strategies to whatever works. I’ve noticed you have to be kind of minimalist when it comes to the early stages of dating.

    1. Never call a girl the day after a date, and unless a situation absolutely warrants it.
    2.  Definitely don’t make plans with her for the day after your date.

    Point is you shouldn’t call that much, it generally makes you seem less interesting when you are in front in the typical immature girl.  It gives her the impression youre busy and got stuff going on.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lege Hart

    Not to be rude, but it’s that very kind of behavior that makes women like me cautious and to wait a couple of months to have sex with men. I don’t see the point in doing stuff like this unless it’s to get off on some sort of sick ego trip.

    It’s one thing to remain dominant with a woman in a relationship. It’s another thing entirely to abuse power for insecurity reasons.

    What do you expect the woman you spoke of in this situation to do? Do you want her to call you constantly to feed your ego, or would you rather her not call you at all as if she could care less? Do you want to dangle contact with her like a carrot in front of her nose, or do you want to actively engage another human being?

    I just don’t get it.

  • Valentin

    Olive my dear, I’m as horrified and saddened as you.

    But the sad fact is the seond a guy shows what we can call the “normal” behaviour for a man that is falling for a girl like show her attention and call the day after he’s labeled as:

    I think this is Susan was talking about when she wrote “guys act like jerks to get into relationships“.

    A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.

  • Valentin

    OK I messed up the list, as to what a man is labeled as in above post:

    A – Needy (40% chance)

    B – Boring (40% chance)

    C – Creepy (20% chance)

  • Annie

    We need to stop seeing losers. We don’t need abusive people that just use you over and over again. We need real people like us.

  • Olive

    @Valentin,

    A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.

    LOL now I’m actually laughing out loud. You guys, you just won’t let Maya get into her own trouble will you? On the other hand, she did say she likes to be teased. :-P

    I’m actually having a convo over in Roosh’s Brotherly Advice with Megaman about how women like me can actually find relationship-minded dudes without being strung along like a dog chasing a treat held right in front of its nose.

    @lege hart,

    Boo immature girls. :-( I say they aren’t worth your time, but I’m biased. Here’s the question: how do you know you’re not treating a non-typical girl like this? You might be filtering out some real girls. Just throwing it out there.

    @Sassy,

    I feel girls like us are rare, and the second guys meet us, they just lump us in with everyone else. SO frustrating, especially if you’re into a guy, and he’s into you, but you’re tempted to just stop putting forth the effort because you might be wasting your time. A good way for a potentially great relationship to go down in flames.

     

  • ozymandias

    Lege: So you are deliberately arranging your romantic partner selection to look for women who have no sense of boundaries, ability to take a hint or understanding of when they’re being rejected?

    I am sure this will work out very well for you and will definitely not end in tears, stalking, your car being keyed, your bunny being boiled or anything else of that ilk.

  • Nummm

    @Susan

     

    What alternative would you suggest to him? It’s obviously working better than what he used to do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Nummm

      I have to believe there’s a way of being effective without being a rude jerk, ignoring people and rejecting them with rudeness to get attention. It seems to me that one can have a strong frame and do very well with women who are not teetering on the edge as this woman seems to be. I agree with Ozy – this kind of girl often turns psycho quickly. Why? Because she is!

  • Ceer

    @ Sassy6915

    Lege hart’s situation is superrior to that of most guys’…he can actually hold a woman’s attention.  Even having a dysfunctional relationship is better than having no one.  In terms of relationship experience, you figure out what you don’t want.

    @Olive

    Just about every shallow woman out there think they’re deep thinking people, or they care about what matters.  Then they watch shows like Jersey Shore and care about Paris Hilton.

    You and Sassy may very well be these wonderful women, but I’m skeptical.  I fully recognize that in wanting a LTR, you have a difficult time showing your intentions properly.  As someone who’s suffered for this SMP, I find myself not minding watching women suffer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Even having a dysfunctional relationship is better than having no one. In terms of relationship experience, you figure out what you don’t want.

      There’s an opportunity cost to that. And you’re wasting time. There’s also the very real cynicism that one develops when engaging in this kind of relationship.

  • DerHahn

    My two coppers on lege hart’s strategy.

    A way long time past, I meet my (then future and now ex) wife about three weeks before she headed to South Africa for an extended vacation with a exchange student friend.  The report I heard was that said friend (who was male) got really sick of hearing about me during her visit.  We were pretty much insperable as a couple after she returned. (not so much later on but that’s another story)

    I met my current girlfriend in early June this year, and promptly got quite busy dealing with the sale of my childhold home after my father entered a care facility.  I spent quite a few weekends away and was busy during the week dealing with stuff at home that I didn’t have weekend time to handle.  Current girlfriend found excuses to come around to my place on a weeknight several times on her own initiative.  After the sale was completed and I was hanging around on the weekends, the improptu visits stopped.

    In other words, ‘absense makes the heart grow fonder’ is not just a poetic saying.

    I also disagree that this is ‘playing a game’.  I don’t text or call my siblings or other friends obsessively which is something that I’ve done in the past to a girl I’ve been infatuiated with.  That obsessive behavior is a bigger change in my normal personality than communicating when the time is right.  Beta guys have a tendency to go overboard in the initial stages of a relationship.  If both partners are cool with it then escalating contact is fine but I definitely think it’s something where a guy has to let the woman set the pace.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DerHahn
      Surely there is a middle ground between texting oneitis and ignoring a woman when she speaks to you! I think you’ve described the right strategy, which involves expressing interest but also a very full life. Not expressing disinterest. The latter strategy will draw women desperate for male validation to boost self-esteem.

  • Olive

    @Ceer,

    Just about every shallow woman out there think they’re deep thinking people, or they care about what matters.  Then they watch shows like Jersey Shore and care about Paris Hilton.

    I don’t give two shits about Paris Hilton. I watch JS because my BF got me hooked on it, and we like to watch it together and talk about how much of a trainwreck those people are. It’s an inside joke thing for us, but that doesn’t mean it’s my go-to conversation topic. I don’t watch any other show regularly… in fact, I mostly avoid TV.

    FWIW, I have a lot of trouble conversing with women my age, because all they talk about is where they got their cute new designer boots, or what color eye shadow looks best on them, or how much they hate that guy they hooked up with on Saturday. Bo-ring.

    You and Sassy may very well be these wonderful women, but I’m skeptical.

    It’s not like this blog is a real-life situation, so feel free to be skeptical if that floats your boat.

    I fully recognize that in wanting a LTR, you have a difficult time showing your intentions properly.  As someone who’s suffered for this SMP, I find myself not minding watching women suffer.

    I’m already in a LTR, but it took me awhile to figure out a good strategy because in the current SMP, I have no idea what others’ intentions are. I never knew if guys ignored me because they were shy or because they weren’t interested. But I hate stupid games, so I found someone who doesn’t play the games and we work quite well together.

    I’m sorry to hear you’ve been burned in the SMP. It sounds like a lot of guys have. I wish women would stop rewarding bad behavior. I would only say that both sides have the wrong idea: girls with all of that “Boys are Stupid, Throw Rocks at Them” crap and guys with this “Women should know what it’s like to suffer too” stuff. I think tons of girls have been burned by the SMP too; they may be acting like idiots, but your attitude doesn’t really help solve the problem. The SMP will get better when both sexes make a conscious effort to change it.

  • http://www.google.com lege hart

    “Wow, you sound like a real charmer. Has it occurred to you that the woman you are now dating has zero self-respect and no impulse control?”

    She is average. It’s just a matter of an individuals perspective and how she reacts to certain things. She’s even talked about how girls treat guys like shit and how that  she wishes there were more honest, nice girls around. There aren’t any mental deficiencies involved, not her at least. I can’t explain why she falls for this stupid shit though.

    Is it my fault ‘game’ works and not heartfelt poetry?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ceer

    I have suffered from this SMP too, just like you. I, however, do not want to see either men or women suffer. I want both genders to get their sh*t together and conduct themselves like responsible adults.

    I don’t get this “I’ve been hurt, blah, blah, blah, so everyone else should suffer too” attitude. We are human. We all get hurt. We can’t control how people treat us 100% of the time.

    Misery loves company indeed.

  • Olive

    @lege hart,

    Do you actually like this girl, though? I’m still not sure… and I’m sure she’s not sure either…

  • Sassy6519

    Is it my fault ‘game’ works and not heartfelt poetry?

     

    No, it’s not your fault that game works with her. It is your fault, however, for picking girls who are easily swayed by or are dependent on game.

    I don’t get this, “If I express my feelings for her, she’ll think less of me/run away/think I’m a chump” thought process.

    The only girls who wouldn’t be excited about a guy admitting feelings for her would be a girl who wasn’t that into you from the beginning. Her feelings about you never changed. She probably just tried to hide her ambivalence until she couldn’t anymore.

    In my personal experience, every time a guy I liked or was interested in showed me attention, I was totally happy to jump on board with him. His sudden attention or feelings for me didn’t make me like him less. It made me excited and want him more.

    If a girl freaks out about a man’s feelings for her, it’s because she wasn’t into you from the beginning and your feelings signaled her time to GTFO. She doesn’t want to string you along, so she starts balking once the feelings come out. If she were into you, she would be stoked to know you like her.

    That’s my 2 cents on the topic anyway.

  • Ceer

    @ Olive

    I wish women would stop rewarding bad behavior. I would only say that both sides have the wrong idea:

    I would frame it differently.  I sure don’t see myself on the same side as a natural alpha who’s been swimming in poon.  I also don’t see myself as being on the same side as the slut who I might bang by learning game.  I USED to think of myself as being on the same side as marriage minded good girls, except… they would practically say I wasn’t for them.  The big problem isn’t just that they’re rewarding bad behavior, it’s at the same time, they’re refusing to reward GOOD behavior.

    Don’t get the wrong idea.  I don’t ENJOY the idea of women suffering for this SMP (yet), but I hope such suffering will help bring about a shift in their priorities… or at least make them more teachable.

    The SMP will get better when both sexes make a conscious effort to change it.

    I agree, but at best I can help the current generation a little, and MAYBE be a small part of the solution for the next.

  • SayWhaat

    FWIW, I have a lot of trouble conversing with women my age, because all they talk about is where they got their cute new designer boots, or what color eye shadow looks best on them, or how much they hate that guy they hooked up with on Saturday. Bo-ring.

    This is not their problem, but yours. Cultivate friendships with women who share your interests. It is not hard.

    Sorry, but I just get annoyed by girls who go on about how they find it hard to relate to other girls their age, as if they are the only ones with brains. You do realize that you’re only perpetuating the stereotype of brainless women by saying that other girls only talk about frivolous things? That’s a form of sexism in itself.

    I just had an intellectually stimulating conversation with a girlfriend about politics that evolved from a discussion about shoes. Sometimes I like caviar, and sometimes I like bubblegum. There is nothing wrong with that.

  • Ramble

    … talk about how much of a trainwreck those people are

    Olive, that is why EVERYONE that watches that show, and shows like it, watch it. It is a little bit like saying, “The only reason why I watch the local football team is because my dad got me into it and I like to root on the team“.

    You should watch what you want to watch, but you are watching The Jersey Shore for the same reason as everyone else.

  • Olive

    @Ceer,

    The big problem isn’t just that they’re rewarding bad behavior, it’s at the same time, they’re refusing to reward GOOD behavior.

    Yes I agree. I think (though I’m not sure) that it’s not all about behavior. Girls love good behavior, but a lot of them only love it from certain guys: the hot guys. If you don’t look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney (or some variation), good friggin’ luck. You’re out of the running right there. A typical immature girl reacts to a not-attractive guy (I mean that in the classical, mass media sense) the same way a guy reacts to a fat chick: please go away, creeper. If that sounds downright nasty, that’s because it is. Girls just don’t know how much they’re limiting themselves by only going for certain guys. And I think (though, again, I’m not sure) that a lot of girls will try to snag hot boyfriends to impress their friends/make them jealous. There’s a lot of peer pressure and competition going on behind the scenes that you probably don’t know about.

    But anyway, this is exactly why a big part of Game is being physically fit. If you’ve got a nice set of abs, girls won’t care what your face looks like. One of my old friends is dating a guy who not only has a rough face, he treats her like shit. Why is she still with him? I can only guess it’s because of his “hot body” or whatever.

    IDK about the suffering thing. It kind of seems like no matter how much a guy treats a girl like shit, she keeps coming back for more. And then tries to go after other like-minded guys.

  • Olive

    Thanks Ramble. If you’ve thrown me into the “shallow girls who gossip about soap operas all day” category as a result, that’s up to you. My alternative was to lie and say I don’t watch it.

  • 108spirits

    It’s always a winning move to keep a girl in the not sure zone.

  • ozymandias

    I wouldn’t fuck Brad Pitt or George Clooney if you paid me. Uuuuuugh. So square-jawed and muscular and ICK.

    Studies have actually shown that showing interest in someone makes them more likely to like you. If you want, I’ll track down the citation.

  • Olive

    LOL Badger said the same thing about Jennifer Aniston the other day. I really just pick random celebrities that pop into my brain. :-P

  • Nummm

    Oh man, Sassy, if your post is even half true, you are so different from the average woman. I mean, literally, you are unlike any other woman I have ever known. Even my mom. I cannot stress that enough. The reason people act like that, is because it works. So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games. Guess which one will always get picked.

     

    Also, comeon, there is so much shaming language in this thread that it’s ridiculous. Lege isn’t a bad guy for doing this, he is pragmatic, no amount of internet snark will convince him that it’s a bad idea, because it is so much more successful than the alternatives you propose.

    Also, lol @ Olive and this false dichotomy you’ve set up. So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.

  • Olive

    So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.

    I’m not willing to get into a big discussion about it here, but you can go read my comments on Men’s Voices Will be Heard about how I’m one of the best shit-talkers out there, and I’m looking to change my ways by finding a group of girls that isn’t gossipy.

    It’s not a dichotomy, really. It’s a spectrum. I don’t fall on the same side of the spectrum as most girls. If you honestly don’t believe that I’m not very girly, as far as my real-life interests go, bully for you. You can only take my word for it.

    What kind of annoys me about conversations like this is here’s what happens:

    1) A guy says something along the lines of AWALT!

    2) A girl replies, offering evidence of how she is not like that.

    3) Several guys respond, saying “you may think you’re different, but I bet you anything you’re just like all the other bitchy stupid girls I’ve met.”

    At that point, the conversation goes in circles, or it ends.

    This is a serious problem for the SMP, for both sexes. For guys, they’re either “players” or “losers.” For girls, they’re all gossiping shallow bitches and they all fall for obnoxious games like the one lege hart has described (sorry lege, I know it works for you, and I’m not trying to call you out. I’m more annoyed with the girls who respond). Anyway, there’s a lot of labeling, categorizing, and throwing verbal stones.

    The frustrating part is when you actually like guys who are up front and honest, but guys have already thrown all girls into the same category. It’s probably just as frustrating for guys who are labeled as losers because they’re shy.

    The SMP should consist of learning about someone’s interests/character/quirks and then deciding if they are compatible with your own. If you want to be successful with tons of ladies, OK, that’s up to you. But if you want a real relationship (and this goes for both men and women), shouldn’t it be about honesty and trust? What I love about my current relationship is that we both knew we were into each other from the start, and we’re very secure about this. I don’t want to be in a relationship that keeps me on the edge; I don’t want to be afraid I’m gonna get dumped for something better, I want to love someone openly and be loved in return. And at the end of the day, I’m pretty sure that’s what everyone wants.

    I’m not at all anti-Game, FWIW. I can’t deal with Roissy (I don’t think many girls can), but I really like Athol Kay’s blog. Of course, he doesn’t keep Jennifer constantly wondering if he’ll divorce her, his Game tactics are little day-to-day things.

    Anyway, I’ll stop ranting now.

  • Nummm

    Listen, you watch Jersey Shore for the same reason everyone else watches Jersey Shore, ergo, atleast by that measure, you are closer to the average than you think. That’s all I’m trying to say here.

     

    I also echo your frustrations: It is ridiculous that human relationships have turned into a game of chicken; who likes who less? However, chiming in that NAWALT and you are the exception doesn’t really do much good for anyone. No woman ever considers herself “like that” and telling us gives us no new info. I get it, nobody wants to be painted as one of the crowd, especially when the crowd is such a sorry gathering of people. But if everyone took NAWALT at face value we would all be left scratching our heads that we continue to have the issues we have, and yet, we cannot find the issues that cause them.

  • Nummm

    sorry, that last bit should read, cannot find the women that cause them.

  • Ceer

    @ Olive

    What kind of annoys me about conversations like this is here’s what happens:
       1) A guy says something along the lines of AWALT!
       2) A girl replies, offering evidence of how she is not like that.
       3) Several guys respond, saying “you may think you’re different, but I bet you anything you’re just like all the other bitchy stupid girls I’ve met.”
    At that point, the conversation goes in circles, or it ends.

    I know it’s tough trying to work through misconceptions.  I see them every day.

    FWIW, I’ve actually seen girls who have gone for the LTR route in their early 20’s.  They’re a mix of girls with a high natural tolerance to beta and ones who have been burned by alpha early and started actually thinking.  The real sticking point here are:

    1)  it’s to the woman’s advantage to lie in order to get into a relationship.

    2)  the man will typically assume a woman who isn’t opening up for him is already opening up for another man

    3)  the woman lacks the capacity to properly assure the man that she in fact only wants him.

    It’s this catch 22 that we’re trying to find a suitable counter for.  Susan made a really good go at it a few posts ago.  Writ large, I think it has a chance of working, but our task is to START the avalanche, not ride it.

    The frustrating part is when you actually like guys who are up front and honest, but guys have already thrown all girls into the same category. It’s probably just as frustrating for guys who are labeled as losers because they’re shy.

    I’d have no problem walking up to a woman and telling her I like her when I find her attractive.  Women’s attraction doesn’t work nearly this fast.  Any guy who doesn’t state his sexual interest within 1 minute of meeting her isn’t being “up front” because he’ll know way before then.  You can only POSSIBLY get away with this if you are super attractive, and even then will fail most of the time.

    THEN there’s the social rules about how you’re supposed to do this useless chatter thing when you first meet people instead of asking weighty questions so you can actually get to know the person properly.

    Let me give you an example of how this works with some boiled down approaches:

    Example 1:
    Ceer:  Hi.  I’m nice.  I think you’re attractive, would you like to get to know me better?
    Girl:  Hi.  I’m being dismissive or mean to you.
    Ceer:  *Hmm, I wonder if she’s just an evil bitch or if I broke some sort of social rule…*
    Example 2:
    Ceer:  Hi.  I’m sort of nice, but I’m talking about random crap so I’m not showing you who I really am.
    Girl:  Hi.  I’m giving you some interest.
    Ceer:  Great, let me make a game mistake.
    Girl:  Ooh, that’s unforgivable, but I’m going to smile as you go out of my life.  Bye.

    This is the rough disparity in treatment between the two groups with equal game/looks.

     

  • Olive

    Listen, you watch Jersey Shore for the same reason everyone else watches Jersey Shore, ergo, atleast by that measure, you are closer to the average than you think. That’s all I’m trying to say here.

    I totally understand what you’re saying, JS is a product of the trashy pop culture that, in a way, has helped to create the current SMP, and it doesn’t bode well for me that I watch it. However, we all have our stupid guilty pleasures, and just because I watch JS with my BF doesn’t mean I aspire to be like Snooki or something. TV is very addicting; once you start watching, no matter how much you hate something, you have to see it to the end. I once walked into a room where people were watching Saw II, and even though I hate scary movies with a passion and I can’t sleep at night when I watch them, I just couldn’t look away.

    In other news, this is why I don’t generally watch TV.

    No woman ever considers herself “like that” and telling us gives us no new info. I get it, nobody wants to be painted as one of the crowd, especially when the crowd is such a sorry gathering of people. But if everyone took NAWALT at face value we would all be left scratching our heads that we continue to have the issues we have, and yet, we cannot find the issues that cause them.

    Yes and no. It’s been said that the regular female commenters here do not represent the majority of women. Anacaona reads and enjoys Twilight… I can’t stand those books, but that doesn’t mean I throw her into the category of bitchy women who are screwing over betas in the SMP. I think everyone here has benefited from her insights. Same with Hope and Bellita and Sassy and whoever. If we were your average girls looking to land big juicy alpha hunks, I don’t think we would’ve survived the threads here. Most of the girls who are setting the standards in the SMP probably aren’t reading blogs or forums, and my guess is they aren’t reading HUS.

    I guess what I’m saying is this: it’s frustrating being a female participant on this blog and having guys jump at the chance to throw me in with everyone else. The minute I say something that could possibly be used to construe me as an average girl, or worse, a feminist, I’m immediately discredited. Today it’s because I watched JS. The other day it was because I hinted that traditional feminism was meant to create relationships in which men and women appreciated each other openly. They were things I mentioned in passing; I had other, much more valuable things to say, but suddenly I found myself in intense debates about topics that didn’t even pertain to the original discussion. I’ve had many very valuable, interesting discussions, even debates, with men on this blog. But the debates I didn’t mean to have are not productive, and I find them to be irrelevant to my purpose here. And in some instances, I just stop responding.

    This blog interaction I just described is a proxy for the SMP. If you really think every girl is out to screw you over, you will throw all of them into the same category without considering what they say/how they act. A perfectly lovely girl could be miserable right now because a guy thinks it’s appropriate to keep her guessing and leave her hanging. And if she’s smart, she won’t put up with that bullshit and she’ll just leave. And then, you’ll only be filtering in the very average girls you complain about. Eventually, the stupid sluts (or whatever you want to call them) will be rewarded, and the girls who hate games will be left out of the dating pool because they refuse to participate. Sound familiar?

     

     

  • Olive

    Also, I agree with Susan. There’s a definitely a middle ground between obsessively texting a girl you like every 5 seconds and purposely not talking to her to gain the upper hand. I would add that it’s different for every girl, though. If my BF didn’t call me all day, I would get really upset and start badgering him obnoxiously about “you never call me anymore, you don’t love me.” He’s known that almost since the beginning, and we’ve found a good balance. Social rules are important, but they only work in a very general sense.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    I’m with Ceer in that I don’t seek to actively cause sexual marketplace pain. I just can’t be too bent out of shape worrying about the ill results of people making obviously bad decisions, or who insist on rejecting all but a handful of men. Too many souls to save. It’s just there’s only so many times a guy can hear “I want a nice guy who won’t cheat on me” or somesuch wish to the heavens before he just stops worrying about why she keeps dating mean guys who cheat on her and ignores the guys who wouldn’t do it, at the same time deploying some Maya-like explanation that the nice mongamous guys aren’t “interesting” enough or can’t “protect” her (an explanation that, truly, is not a rationalization).

    I have, and continue to, counsel women (and men) who present with at least a smidge of humility, saying “this bad shit is happening and I can’t tell what to do. Can you help me figure this out?” That’s part of the business of my blog.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I have, and continue to, counsel women (and men) who present with at least a smidge of humility, saying “this bad shit is happening and I can’t tell what to do. Can you help me figure this out?” That’s part of the business of my blog.

      I’ll second that. I’m a sucker for earnestness in people. If someone has that quality I’ll forgive almost everything else. I actually recall one very specific moment at a lunch table in B-school when my husband said something incredibly earnest and I realized what a good man he was – that’s when I went from crushing on him to wanting to really make it happen.

      Earnestness is not the same as humility, but I find they often go hand in hand.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ” I would get really upset and start badgering him obnoxiously”

    Hold it, only one person is going to be doing any badgering at this place.

  • Olive

    @Ceer and Badger,

    I think we’re all on the same team here. The other day I was talking to one of my female friends and she said something along the lines of “I’m so picky when it comes to guys, I just can’t seem to find any good ones out there.” I immediately told her to read this blog with a very open mind. Not sure if she’s come by, she’d likely get slaughtered in the comments, but perhaps she’s grappled a bit with the notion that she is part of the problem. I say this often, but I’ll say it again; I would’ve gotten so much out of this blog in early college, when I was single.

    @Ceer,

    I’d have no problem walking up to a woman and telling her I like her when I find her attractive.  Women’s attraction doesn’t work nearly this fast.  Any guy who doesn’t state his sexual interest within 1 minute of meeting her isn’t being “up front” because he’ll know way before then.

    I guess I should’ve been more clear. By “up front,” I meant that I don’t mind if a guy tells me he’s attracted to me after we hang out for the first time. I guess a lot of girls like the thrill of the chase, but I do not. I find it stressful, and if a guy is playing this game of stand-offishness, I start to wonder if I’m not good enough for him. I don’t like that feeling, and I’m surprised that so many girls respond to this kind of interaction.

     

  • Olive

    Hold it, only one person is going to be doing any badgering at this place.

    Haha! At HUS the badgering is all yours. In my relationship, I’m afraid it’s a different story. :-P

  • Cassy

    I would not call if I were in this situation. Generally I just don’t ask if I can call and follow up. If it goes a while after applying I will just call them up and see if there is any new news.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “The other day I was talking to one of my female friends and she said something along the lines of “I’m so picky when it comes to guys, I just can’t seem to find any good ones out there.” I immediately told her to read this blog with a very open mind.”

    I say this not to insult your friend, but this is something I’d term “malignant hypergamy” or “pathological hypergamy,” itself an offshoot of pathological narcissism in that a woman’s attraction system is overvaluing her own SMV in judging potential partners. We have noted here how casual sex from higher-standing men can cause a woman to think she’s hot stuff but you don’t need to get boned to be picky.

    Fortunately, I believe it to be treatable. Like this.

    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/a-dating-exercise-for-women/

    If a reasonably attractive, reasonably affable (e.g. not ugly or a geek), non-religious woman tells me she’s never had a boyfriend, or doesn’t meet a lot of guys or something like this, I usually suspect toopickyosis (followed by tactical game failure like not giving the guy her number, frequent flaking, etc). It’s insidious in that when you suffer from it you start rejecting guys without even knowing it, it shows on your face and guys can tell not to even try, shrinking your pool further.

    I guess it would be too harsh to say these women’s standards are too high. Instead I’ll say, they think they can be pickier than their market value allows them. Put another way, they can’t afford to be rejecting prospects for superficial reasons.

    I remember my old girlfriend’s overweight and rude friend complain there just weren’t that many guys who fit her “standards” or something like this. I think she insisted her boyfriend make six figures, she came from a high-income but not wealthy family which partially explained the lack of class. This was just after she had directly and cruelly insulted a good friend of mine to me (my friend wasn’t there and in any case had made no acts of interest towards her). I told her innocently, “well I guess if you have enough options that you can afford to be that picky, then more power to you.” Word got back to me later that another girl there wanted to punch me (a show of bravado I doubted she would have gone through with). They’re all still single at last check, I expect some of them will become Kate Bolicks without Kate’s money and social status.

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s insidious in that when you suffer from it you start rejecting guys without even knowing it, it shows on your face and guys can tell not to even try, shrinking your pool further.

      I’m more and more convinced of this. I think people get a lot of data from one another totally at a subconscious level. We know they do hormonally, it makes sense that they also take the emotional temperature of people when meeting them or observing them. Negative energy must be a hindrance if that is true. I’ve been thinking about this with regard to promiscuity/carousel riding lately. While I don’t think “slut tells” as listed by Roissy are always evident, I think there might be some kind of trail of clues that is reflected in the woman’s emotional state, and that is telegraphed.

      Of course, a woman having a ton of sex “like a guy” and loving it is not going to be having that anxiety, stress, etc. so may project a very positive energy. In that case I presume she’d be open about it.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    56 Olive wrote:

    Girls are so stupid, SMH.

    I guess that to goes to 76 Isabel’s list:

    SMH = Shaking my head

     

     


    Hmm. A morning coffee seems now be ready.

  • Nummm

    @ Susan, I totally disagree. I was in a wonderful relationship for almost 2 years. The first year, I kept a strong frame, and things we’re good. Then we had some issues, and I admit I should have broken up with her instead of this, but I started playing serious mindgames with her, then the relationship became amazing. I have never ever seen a girl become so enthusiastic about everything as she did, it was ludicrous. And she wasn’t crazy either, she was a perfectly respectable, perfectly sane, wonderful girl. No horrible past/relationship history, nothing. But it worked. You can’t argue with those results; you just can’t. Why would I text a girl enough to keep her comfortable, when I can text her enough to keep her interested instead? Less effort on my part, more pay off. The alternative simply doesn’t make sense, there is no point in hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort.

    Also, I reject your claim that girls that respond to this are somehow damaged or psycho; they’re not. They are regular, average, normal girls. They are subject to the same psychological quirks. And for what it’s worth, this sort of flakiness will work on anyone, regardless of gender. Unless the guy has a harem going, in which case he won’t care. But for most cases, yes, this works.

    @ Olive

    I’m not saying you aspire to be Snooki. The average girl who watches Jersey Shore doesn’t aspire to be Snooki, she watches it for the same reasons you do. You don’t stand out from the crowd in that regard. That’s really all I am trying to say.

  • Mike C

    I say this not to insult your friend, but this is something I’d term “malignant hypergamy” or “pathological hypergamy,” itself an offshoot of pathological narcissism in that a woman’s attraction system is overvaluing her own SMV in judging potential partners.

    I’ve been out of the market 5+ years, but from reading various blogs and accounts, my sense is this has really skyrocketed even the past 5 years to the point where it seems like maybe there is an epidemic of delusional hypergamy.  There was another thread where I posted the comment that I think the combination of both of a lack of self-awareness and the magnitude of the hypergamous impulse makes a woman her own worst enemy in finding a fulfilling relationship.  You see this where now media is reflecting reality.  I think it was either a Beyonce or Rihanna song I saw posted here that literally is the anthem for hypergamy.

    You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.

     

    Word got back to me later that another girl there wanted to punch me (a show of bravado I doubted she would have gone through with). They’re all still single at last check, I expect some of them will become Kate Bolicks without Kate’s money and social status.

    Just a side point thinking back to my bouncing days, but I remember being surprised at the physicality of certain women.  I don’t know if it was out of control emotion, delusion, or what, but say a guy got totally out of hand..  Most guys I’d give a certain look, or a few seconds in a serious headlock, and they knew to back the f*ck down realizing the damage I could do them.  It was always awkward trying to restrain women out of control because you had to be careful of just how much physicality to apply, but it almost seems with the “you go girl nonsense” that many women have forgotten just how much more physically powerful EVEN  the average man is.  It is almost surreal that any woman would consider initiating any kind of physical action against a guy.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    72 Sassy6519 wrote:

    If a girl freaks out about a man’s feelings for her, it’s because she wasn’t into you from the beginning and your feelings signaled her time to GTFO.

    I guess that this also goes to 76 Isabel’s list:

    GTFO = Get the fuck out

    or

    GTFO = Get the fuck off

     


    ( Got a morning coffee. The girl need to be woken up. )

  • Olive

    @Nummm,

    I’m not saying you aspire to be Snooki. The average girl who watches Jersey Shore doesn’t aspire to be Snooki, she watches it for the same reasons you do. You don’t stand out from the crowd in that regard. That’s really all I am trying to say.

    OK but that’s not what you said originally. Here’s what you said:

    Also, lol @ Olive and this false dichotomy you’ve set up. So you are either shallow and gossipy, or not ? Get outta here, you fall right in the meaty part of the curve, just like most everyone else here.

    From what I gathered, you assumed that because I watch JS, I am just as shallow and gossipy as everyone else, right? You must at least see why I responded the way I have. I don’t take lightly to being called “shallow,” particularly because my dating behavior is not based on superficiality. This has been demonstrated in many other comments I’ve posted.

    Anyway, I’ve tried to explain this several times, and I’ll explain it again: this “stand-offishness” does not work on everyone…I can tell you for sure, I would absolutely hate it. Maybe some other aspects of Game would work for me, but that one does not. I would seriously become a whiny bitch if I sensed any type of disinterest or “playing it cool.” I know because a few months out of high school, I had a long-distance BF who wanted to do “weekly” phone calls and became very stand-offish. I hated that our contact was limited, I became a royal pain in his ass as a result, and we eventually broke up. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t do flakiness.

     

  • Anacaona

    Anacaona reads and enjoys Twilight… I can’t stand those books, but that doesn’t mean I throw her into the category of bitchy women who are screwing over betas in the SMP.

    I though the stereotypical twilight reader was an dumb woman in an abusive relationship? Did they changed the haters arguments again? Why no one tells me this stuff? :(

    Also would you feel the same if I told you that I cosplayed as Bella for the Twilight convention?

    I guess what I’m saying is this: it’s frustrating being a female participant on this blog and having guys jump at the chance to throw me in with everyone else.

    Hang in there Olive this is the way men operate men don’t nuclearly reject women sexually but they are harsh filter of allies, specially women. There is a sort of “baptism with fire” that all female commenters had to get through here (if you are brave you should check the Nice Guy TM thread and show how I was crucified there too) after that I can get away with almost everything because I earned my wings, the thing is, that is hard thing to do specially in this culture were women are cuddled and their feelings validated with “you are great he is a creep” the moment they start feel uncomfortable about something. Is not easy I didn’t had a nice time during my “trial” but it does get better also you will start to no take it personally every timea they talk about women you will seeing them as separated from you thus the “Team Woman” also wanes a bit.

     

  • Anacaona

    Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t do flakiness.

    One of the first HUGE deal breakers was flakiness any man that told me he was going to call me at 7 and didn’t, got asked what happened if not a good explanation and did it again I labeled him “unreliable” and never took a phone call ever again from them. I don’t know if normal women get aroused waiting like idiots for a call that never comes, but I don’t enjoy feeling like an idiot and I usually set the time aside to talk to the guy in question without distractions so the level of effort being responded with indifference, was a big turn off.

    Hubby promised me from day one to write me daily after work and never ever ever failed, the days he couldn’t he will tell me in advance, and then explain what happened with details. I adore him just like that I know I can trust his word, nothing makes me wetter than feeling emotionally safe, I know I’m weird and probably boring but ces’t la vie.

  • Dogsquat

    Nunnnnn said:

    So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games.

    I didn’t read anything below this quote in the thread.

    I’m going to be harsh with you in the hopes it will eventually help you.  When reading this, it will be tempting to slip into the oh so comfortable “shaming language” defense.  That’s fine – see, I’m in a win-win here.  Either I help you, and gain a little good karma to balance my scales with, or you decide I’m trying to shame you somehow, go your own way, and leave more women for me.

    Now that you know where I sit, I’ll tell you where I stand:

    You are incorrect.  Those are the lazy man’s choices.  Those are not the only choices you have.

    Sure, that stuff will work with a few women.  Most of those will be damaged somehow, women who can’t tolerate closeness and intimacy because of their flaws, real and/or perceived.  You’re offering them the idea of a relationship without an actual relationship – something to dump buckets of emotional energy into without risking anything other than looking a little foolish.  You’re a Placebo Relationship.

    Unfortunately, you’re going to snare a small percentage of actually good women who actually like you in spite of your behavior.  You’ll run them through the ringer, and then one of you will break it off with the other.  She’ll conclude that all men are assholes (she’ll only be right about you, though) and you’ll decide that getting a women’s attention in short, frantic doses is good enough because you don’t know any other way.

    Here is one alternative option among many.  I did basically this several years ago, based on something a buddy of mine said.  It is hard.  You will get tired.  Some of it sucks at first. It is not your only option. But it works:

    1. Decide you’re going to forgo women for a year.  Seriously – don’t pursue, don’t date, don’t approach.  If poontang falls out of the sky onto your dick, have fun, but recognize that it’s actually putting things on hold.  Don’t give me that bullshit about sex being a need, either.  It’s nice, and it’s a biological drive, but it is not a need.  No one has ever died from lack of sex.  If they did, I’d have a bunch of emergency prostitutes in the back of my ambulance and a shitload of protocols and training on how to administer vagina to the poor unfortunates afflicted with end stage hypocoitus.

    But they don’t.

    And I don’t.

    So quit using “But I have neeeeeeeeedddsss!” as a cop out.

    2. Get serious about your career or school. If you’re doing something, you ought to be doing it well.  If you’re stuck (more on that later) doing something you hate, consider it a test of discipline and will to do it well.  Prove to yourself that you can do the needful, no matter how boring or hard or dirty it is.  Discipline is like a muscle.  If you don’t use it, it gets flabby.  If you never do anything difficult, you’ll never develop the discipline to do anything worthwhile.  If you shun your duties and responsibilities when they’re hard, you won’t be able to put out for yourself when you have a great opportunity – you’ll lack the ability.

    Here’s a little Rudyard Kipling (from every Infantry Sergeant’s favorite poem The Heathen) to illustrate the proper mindset:

    Getting clear of dirtiness, getting done with mess,
    Getting shut of doing things rather-more-or-less;
    Not so fond of abby-nay, kul, nor hazar-ho,
    Learns to keep his rifle and himself just so!

    That third line is pidgin Hindustani slang that means:  abby-nay (not now), kul (tomorrow) and hazar-ho (wait a bit).  So knock that shit off.

    3. Go get a physical.  Get your labs drawn.  Address any physical problems you have.  If your teeth are fucked up, get them fixed.  If you wear glasses, get contacts or corrective surgery.  If you throw your hands up and say,”I don’t have the money!” well, you’ve got something to save for now, don’t you?  Better get on #1 then.

    4. What is your passion?  What mark do you want to make on the world?  There are all kinds of idiot out there who talk about making films, writing, painting, music, etc. constantly as if it’s what drives their life….and they don’t do shit but talk.  Those people are laughed at behind their backs.  They’re in love with the image of “The Artist” but they lack the intestinal fortitude it takes to create something that might be criticized.  Don’t be that guy.  Those guys are wastes of good carbon atoms.  The world eventually treats them as such.

    This applies to anything.  You’re passion doesn’t have to be artsy.  I play the drums, and write a bit, but both are hobbies.  I figured out neither was a passion by attempting to do them regularly.  I lack the love and obsession with either to ever truly master those crafts.  Getting brutally honest with myself about this freed my ego/identity to explore other areas of life, and I found something I truly am passionate about.

    So find something to be passionate about.  Bring something new and good into the world.  It could be bringing joy to the face of a child in the burn ward of your local hospital, or an invention so bad-ass that Vince the Sham Wow/SlapChop guy will be selling millions of them.

    Work on it for an hour a day, six days a week.  Talking about it with your buddies at the coffee shop with your Mac open to a blank screen doesn’t count.  You aren’t creating anything, you’re just bullshitting.

    5. Get in shape.  Find a program and stick to it.  It doesn’t have to be drudgery, either.  I like doing Krav Maga because I think it’s fun to punch and choke people.  You might like racquetball or lifting weights or whatever.  The point is to lose your gut and put on some muscle.

    6. Go somewhere you’ve never been once a month.  It could be a restaurant or a concert hall or some far-flung country – the point is to see new things and talk to new people.  It’s also to get you out from in front of your Starcraft 2 game once in awhile.

    7. Read a little Game, but try not to use it yourself for the agreed upon year.  Just observe it around you.  Eavesdrop on couples in the grocery store, watch it flow in the classroom or at work, think about it, see examples of it in movies or TV.  Let it age in your brain like a nice Islay whisky.  It’ll flavor your interactions a bit anyway, just having learned the concepts.  Less is more.

    8. If you like your job and look forward to work most days, skip this step.

    Figure out what you really want to do for a living.  I’m not going to go Full Zen on you and say you need to turn your avocation into a vocation.  That’s great for some folks, but it just ain’t gonna happen in one year for most of us.  That’s okay.  What you can do, though, is make steps toward building a better life for yourself.  So figure out what you can do to make that happen.  Write a plan out, then follow it through.  It might be as simple as getting a certification, or you might need to get back into/go to school.  Get it done.

     

    At the end of the year, if you’ve done everything faithfully, you’ll value yourself a lot more.  Good things will come into your life much more frequently than before.  Some of those things you’ll have specifically worked for, and some will seem to appear at random because of your good attitude and ethic.  You’ll find women will value you more, too.  You’ll find that you genuinely respect some of the women who like you.  The world will seem like a better place, and life will not seem so hard – despite the hard work you do.

    Think it’s bullshit? What are you bringing to the table, then? Think it’s wrong to work hard to have things and people in your life that are valuable and excellent?

    Fine – more quality women for me, then.  Good luck  – you’re gonna need it.

  • Ceer

    @ Olive

    It’s difficult to teach some girls.  What I was getting at, is that an irrational girl in pain is hopefully more likely to listen to reason than an irrational girl who’s hunky dory.

    Anacaona is pretty close to correct… what she describe IS typical guy behavior…any time a new social order is established, the men spar to figure out where each other stand.

    @ Badger

    A girl who complains about guys wants to punch you?  Good for you.  You’re obviously talking to them in the right manner.

    Interesting thought about the malignant hypergamy.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Female Access Hollywood reporter asks Robert Pattinson: “Have you ever actually broken a headboard?”

    “Yes.”

    *visibly tingles*

     

  • Anacaona

    Female Access Hollywood reporter asks Robert Pattinson: “Have you ever actually broken a headboard?”

    “Yes.”

    *visibly tingles*

    Guilty as charge but then isn’t this a male fantasy too? I read something about a novel in which the leading man has sex with his beloved till the bed becomes splinters I think is a sci-fi or something like, it written by and for men so yeah don’t blame us for that you want to do it too. :p

    Also *ginatingles* for actually quoting anything related with Twilight I always give major points to men for that. The very bulked out guy at the convention with his wife had a T-shirt “Twilight ruined my wife” That is what I call manly “I go to girly stuff with my wife and if you have a problem I have a big fist that you might want to talk to”

  • Olive

    @SayWhaat,

    Whoa, sorry, I totally missed your comment there.

    This is not their problem, but yours. Cultivate friendships with women who share your interests. It is not hard.

    Maybe I’m in the wrong place, or looking in the wrong places, but I have found that it generally is very difficult. I have 2 female friends who I can honestly say are interesting and interested in intellectual discussions. The rest only care about bubblegum, and the minute I discuss something else, I immediately get shot down, or I get the very slight nod and the rather blank stare, then the change of subject.

    The other week I had to do an excruciating group project with a bunch of girls about a movie. This one girl would shut me down anytime I actually tried to discuss the movie (which, you know, was the point of the project). Her goal was to get the project done and get out. We have to present the project tomorrow, and I have no idea what we’re going to talk about, because all we’ve done, as a group, is put a few words on a powerpoint. Why was this girl so eager to shut down a potentially enlightening conversation about a school project, a conversation we were supposed to have? And better yet, why did all the other girls in the group defer to her?

    You do realize that you’re only perpetuating the stereotype of brainless women by saying that other girls only talk about frivolous things? That’s a form of sexism in itself.

    I only read it as I see it. I was part of a frivolous group of girls in college, and it got so bad that my BF pointed out that the frivolity had worn off on me. He said I wasn’t interested in intellectual discussions anymore, and he was having trouble relating to me. That’s when I knew there was a problem.

    But my old friends were mildly frivolous compared to the vast majority of the girls on my campus. And now that I’m in a social work program, it seems even worse. I’m not trying to perpetuate a stereotype, and I certainly don’t think girls are brainless. But I just don’t see them USING their brains that often.

    I just had an intellectually stimulating conversation with a girlfriend about politics that evolved from a discussion about shoes. Sometimes I like caviar, and sometimes I like bubblegum. There is nothing wrong with that.

    That’s totally cool, it sounds like you have a great friend. In high school, my friends told me to “shut up” about politics. It wasn’t much better in college, so I stopped talking about academic stuff when my friends were around. The only thing most of them know about my first abroad experience is that I “hung around with a bunch of creepy Mexicans.” They know even less about my second abroad experience, and I doubt they’d care.

    Again, maybe I’m just ignorant and not paying attention to the right groups of girls, but I have found it very difficult to socialize with women without artificially increasing my “girly-ness” for conversational purposes.

  • Olive

    @Ana,

    I though the stereotypical twilight reader was an dumb woman in an abusive relationship? Did they changed the haters arguments again? Why no one tells me this stuff? :(

    LOL I actually just made up a fake hater argument.

    Also would you feel the same if I told you that I cosplayed as Bella for the Twilight convention?

    OK now I might be judging you….

    Kidding, obvi. Half my bitterness at Twilight, I must admit, is because I was totally rooting for Jacob the whole time and got pissed that Bella ended up with such a cold, boring man. Jacob was hot. The whole 4th book was a waste because he was out of the picture for Bella, IMO of course.

    The other half of my bitterness is aimed at the movies. I’m sorry for those who disagree but I really think neither Kristen nor Rob are very good actors. The second movie was like torture, not sure why I say through it. Taylor finally got a little better in the third movie, buuut I doubt I’ll see the 4th (and 5th?).

    There is a sort of “baptism with fire” that all female commenters had to get through here

    LOL yes I’ve sort of gathered this. It’s fine, when I first arrived it was immediately assumed I was a typical beta hater. Only so much I can do eh?

    you will start to no take it personally every timea they talk about women you will seeing them as separated from you thus the “Team Woman” also wanes a bit.

    I’ve also figured this. Which is sad, because I don’t want to seem anti-woman, but, I do get frustrated when I hear about women’s preferences and rejection methods.

    Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence, Ana. :-)

  • Olive

    @Ceer,

    It’s difficult to teach some girls.  What I was getting at, is that an irrational girl in pain is hopefully more likely to listen to reason than an irrational girl who’s hunky dory.

    Yes I agree with this. Which is why, whenever I hear a girl talking about being rejected or dumped, from now on I’m just going to tell her to read this blog. It’s like spreading the good news! Only, without the whole forcing religion on people thing… :-P

  • ozymandias

    I have no intentions of shaming Lege. I am simply pointing out that his technique is short-sighted, given that he’s actively filtering for women who can’t pick up on signals or accept the existence of boundaries. Women like me would assume he’s rejecting us and stop calling; women like Jane, the friendly neighborhood drama queen, would assume that he’s playing a game and call all the time. It will end in thrown plates and tears, I’m telling you.  

    Dogsquat: See, that is good advice. (I’d disagree about the Game bit, but then, crazy feminist over here. :) ) I think what a lot of people don’t get is that they have to bring value into people’s lives to get a relationship; you don’t just get one for being a half-decent person. You get one because someone else wants to be in a relationship with you. It helps to be awesome. :)

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Mike C,

    “my sense is this has really skyrocketed even the past 5 years to the point where it seems like maybe there is an epidemic of delusional hypergamy”

    I have seen this firsthand in my return to the marketplace in the last ~7 months. It is truly brutal. In the sense of it being something that touches everyone in a population, it certainly is an epidemic. The pathological hypergamist used to be a stock character in teen shows, the bitchy chick who rejected everybody. Now it’s a functioning archetype of young adult society.

    “You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.”

    Kate Bolick’s essay was a refreshing piece from the MSM in that it acknowledged the 80-20 paradigm, but at the end said essentially the same thing.

    “There was another thread where I posted the comment that I think the combination of both of a lack of self-awareness and the magnitude of the hypergamous impulse makes a woman her own worst enemy in finding a fulfilling relationship.”

    Without a doubt, the status-whoring just kills a woman’s chance at being happy. I’d add the force of a woman’s hypergamous friends to that list.

    “You see this where now media is reflecting reality. ”

    I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.

     

  • Anacaona

    Kidding, obvi. Half my bitterness at Twilight, I must admit, is because I was totally rooting for Jacob the whole time and got pissed that Bella ended up with such a cold, boring man. Jacob was hot. The whole 4th book was a waste because he was out of the picture for Bella, IMO of course.

    The other half of my bitterness is aimed at the movies. I’m sorry for those who disagree but I really think neither Kristen nor Rob are very good actors. The second movie was like torture, not sure why I say through it. Taylor finally got a little better in the third movie, buuut I doubt I’ll see the 4th (and 5th?).

    Is okay I’m totally the opposite of you if it was for me there wouldn’t be any Jacob at all in the saga or I would had worked him like SMeyer initially planned the small part he had in Twilight then Imprinting in Forever Dawn. I guess is the same about the movies I do like Taylor though he is a good funny kid, devoted to his work but he, Ashley Greene and Kellan Lutz have limited chops and their looks are not very malleable, they only will be selling beauty and gym products in the future. The rest of the cast will do well and I do think all of them are solid actors, including the wolf pack except for Kiowa I don’t think he can act or that he even likes it at this point, YMMV as usual.

    I’ve also figured this. Which is sad, because I don’t want to seem anti-woman, but, I do get frustrated when I hear about women’s preferences and rejection methods.

    Just think of yourself as pro-people or anti-sexist. ;)

  • Anacaona

    Anacaona is pretty close to correct… what she describe IS typical guy behavior…any time a new social order is established, the men spar to figure out where each other stand.

    Thanks for giving the right words! *kissinthecheek* That was what I was trying to explain.

  • Mike C

    I have seen this firsthand in my return to the marketplace in the last ~7 months. It is truly brutal. In the sense of it being something that touches everyone in a population, it certainly is an epidemic. The pathological hypergamist used to be a stock character in teen shows, the bitchy chick who rejected everybody. Now it’s a functioning archetype of young adult society.

    IMO, what you are seeing is sort of the market bubble phase.  The thing about market bubbles is they always run further then you would ever expect.  I remember seeing California, Arizona, Las Vegas housing prices in 2004-2005 thinking how in Godl’s name is this possible.  Many of those are now down 50% off the peak.  I don’t think this bubble pops until you get a much greater percentage of women hitting 35+ and not getting married or having kids.  I suspect the cries of “where are all the good men” will get deafening.  It will be interesting to see if this results in some sort of collective self-examination.

    I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.

    Very interesting point.  I hadn’t previously thought of this, but I think you are right in that it reflects the perception of the average guy.

  • Olive

    @Badger,

    Without a doubt, the status-whoring just kills a woman’s chance at being happy. I’d add the force of a woman’s hypergamous friends to that list.

    Yes, I totally agree. Hypergamy can rub off very easily in a group, and in some cases, it’s hard to resist. So much of it is just jealousy, though. You can hear that in the wistful sighs of “awww man if only we were all single, we could go out together and it would be so fun like old times.” There’s a certain pressure to keep going out with your friends even if you’re in a LTR, and I had to be very careful about this. The last thing I’d want would be my BF thinking I’m out there cheating, or looking for something better. But it’s a difficult balancing act of “having fun” vs. not compromising your relationship. And it gets worse when you hear that “chicks before dicks” stuff.

    As for movie protagonists, I must admit I adore Michael Cera. Swoon.

  • Nummm

    @Olive

    Oh shit, my bad. I’m not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I just really have no idea where I was going with that one.

    @ Dogsquat

    LOL.

    I am graduating this university this year, going into a career I will really enjoy. I was a varsity athlete that made the deans list for my first 3 years, before I quit varsity in order to focus on school more. LOL @ lose your gut. Lose my gut my ass, lol. I have been in better shape than 90% of human beings on this planet at one point.

    I am also a classically trained guitarist, and pianist. By classically, I mean in the Spanish style, finger picking, all that jazz. None of this “chugging away with power chords that I learned from youtube” garbage that is so common now a days. My mother, being the patriot she is, insisted I study Chopin extensively;I can literally plays dozens of his Polonaises on the piano for you. Music is very enjoyable for me, a passion, if you will

    I have lived in Italy, and in Germany, seen Austria, France and Switzerland aswell. I also learned another language, in order to better communicate with my mom and my grandparents. It wasn’t easy, I still can’t spell for the life of me or read complex writings, but I am totally fluent. I regularly attend art shows, concerts, or other events that my university throws.

     

    So now that we’ve establish that I am not a fat, video game addicted anti social loser, do you have any advice?

     

    You and Susan both make the claim that this sort of namby pamby mind game stuff doesn’t work on women, but it does! I have used it successfully! I have seen it used successfully! And this was all with perfectly healthy, psychologically normal girls. Women will agonize over why he didn’t call, why he didn’t text back, etc. This doesn’t make them low quality, it makes them people.

  • Dogsquat

    @Nummm

     

    LOL yourself.

    Game works.  I’ve never denied it.

    Your dilemma was “mindgames or celibacy”.  My alternative was for you to get some shit going on in your life, make you an interesting person, like.

    You report back that you are actually King Shit of Turd Mountain –  interesting as Indiana Jones and more accomplished than Miyamoto Musashi.  Okay, then….why can’t you find a girl you like and respect?

    You might not be looking in the right places.  Yes, looking.  I’m a non-traditional “college kid” at a big school right now, and I observe the goings on with interest.  The local “high value” males sort of remind me of crocodiles or other ambush predators.  They position themselves, then wait for something dumb to come waltzing up.  They pounce, expend a little energy, and either get what they’re after or give up quickly before too much energy is spent.  Perhaps another strategy is in order.

    You might be impatient.

    It could also be your personality.  I remember you from another thread were you had an extensive chat with Jesus Mahoney,  You were such an argumentative prick that porcupines fled the mere rumor of your approach.

    I know this is just the internet and everything, but I’ve met and become friends in real life with enough people from forums and blogs to know that a good bit of someone’s natural personality comes through in their writing.  You seem angry, pessimistic, and a little vindictive.  Who wants to be around someone like that?  Not the kind of girl you’re looking for, I think.

    Dude, I might be wrong.  I hope I am, actually.  You could be happier than Richard Simmons for all I know.  I’m just some guy on the internet.

    This might sound like a bit of gladhanding, but I mean no offense.  I gave you my best guess, you said I was wrong, and I tried again.  I have a sneaking suspicion that you’ll deny these guesses, too, since they’re not very flattering.  Who knows.

    What do you think the problem is?

    Carry On with the Plan of the Day,

    Dogsquat

  • Maya

    @?,

    A man today can not be loving and show emotion (especially a need for it): it will just drive May-… I mean women, away.

    If you present yourself as a desperate, needy and clingy person in the first five minutes after meeting a girl you can be sure you will drive most of them away. Are you attracted to desperate women?

    @Badger,

    … deploying some Maya-like explanation that the nice mongamous guys aren’t “interesting” enough or can’t “protect” her.

    Where did I say that about nice guys? I’m sorry I used the word shy – this was probably just projection – I’m shy myself and seems that I like to talk shit about people with similar flaws as I have … However, it’s true that I only like guys with whom I can feel safe with. I don’t want a child to cling on me – I’m looking for a guy I can cling to. But this is just my own preference, not sure why it bothers you so much …

    @Mike C,

    You see in this some of the comments here….like those of Constance and Maya….where apparently are a small percentage of attractive guys are suitable for relationships and the rest (majority) are just a bunch of losers.

    I never said that. But you have to know that if you want to buy youth and beauty you need something to pay for that. What do you have?

  • Nummm

    Dogsquat

    Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.

    Mindgames vs celibacy is the choice the average guy has to make. Or he can go on some crazy quest wherein he becomes the most interesting man in the world, as per your suggestions, just to get laid. Why would somebody who wants to get laid take a year off from getting laid, and spend so much time on stuff they don’t care about (else, they’d probably already be doing it) when there is a simpler solution (even if you don’t want to admit that mindgames work on non-psychologically damaged women). Now if someone wants to turn their life around, then yes, go for it. Throw yourself into the Dogsquat life program as hard as you can.

    Also, sure, I am angry as fuck. If, as a man, you are aware of what is going on in the mainstream media, in the academic world and the courts, you should be angry. Or you’re not paying attention.

    Am I pessimistic? You bet the fuck I am pessimistic. For the above reasons. Vindictive? Sure, why not. I can be cruel, everyone has the capacity for cruelty.

    I’m argumentative because you and Jesus made posts that consist of you talking down to me. Your advice wasn’t new or novel, it just wasn’t practical, and then your post had entirely too many tidbits about how great you are. I get it, you are a big time blogger, when people read your name on the screen, women get tingly and men avert their eyes. I’ll cut the crap if you will.

     

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Nummm

    I’m pro-Game, and we all know a bit of push pull is very effective. But there is a big difference between pulling back, creating an opportunity for a woman to want you, and being overtly rejecting. The latter approach filters for women who will persevere in the face of repeated rejection, who are usually on the needy and desperate end of the spectrum. They’ll do just about anything for male validation. That’s a very risky bet for any kind of relationship.

    To be clear, I think lege hart is exactly right when he says this:

    I’ve noticed you have to be kind of minimalist when it comes to the early stages of dating.

    1. Never call a girl the day after a date, and unless a situation absolutely warrants it.
    2.  Definitely don’t make plans with her for the day after your date.

    Point is you shouldn’t call that much, it generally makes you seem less interesting when you are in front in the typical immature girl.  It gives her the impression youre busy and got stuff going on.

    OTOH, I think he’s going too far with this:

    I’m a very stubborn guy and will never make the first move.  I tend to ignore people I’ve just met, or women I’ve just started dating/met. If I’m asked a question or something, on occasion I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing and let them ask me again. Have to earn my attention, otherwise I’m not going to bother.

    After that, I stopped answering her calls and you’d be surprised how far women go to have your attention.

  • Ramble

    Thanks Ramble. If you’ve thrown me into the “shallow girls who gossip about soap operas all day” category as a result, that’s up to you.

    Olive, I am not throwing you into anything. But, if you watch something, you watch it.

    You mentioned Soap Operas. If you watch Mad Men, you watch Soap Operas. (And, yes, it is absolutely a Soap Opera. It is simply done better, much better, than you typical Soap).

    But, if the reason why you watch the Jersey Shore is so you can talk about what a train wreck Snottie is, then you are watching it for the very same reason as everyone else.

    This does not bother me, but I gather that it may bother you.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    NUMMM

    So guys have a choice, involuntary celibacy and loneliness, or mind games….
    Why would I text a girl enough to keep her comfortable, when I can text her enough to keep her interested instead? Less effort on my part, more pay off. The alternative simply doesn’t make sense, there is no point in hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort…..
    Mindgames vs celibacy is the choice the average guy has to make. Or he can go on some crazy quest wherein he becomes the most interesting man in the world, as per your suggestions, just to get laid.

    First, let me tell you what I agree with. I agree that you shouldn’t text a girl enough to keep her comfortable. And I also agree that there is no point hamstringing yourself for someone else’s comfort.

    I’m pretty sure that Dogsquat wasn’t implying that you should try to become the most interesting man in the world, and if he was implying that, then I’m sure he wasn’t saying that you should do it just to get laid.

    By your own estimate, you’re not the average guy. If you can competently play guitar and piano, if you’re bilingual, if you’re well-traveled, if you’re tough enough to be a bouncer, and if you’re on your way towards a great career, then you’re well above average and getting laid shouldn’t be too difficult for you. If getting sex is tough, it can only mean that you’re doing something very very wrong somewhere along the line.

    You suggested that playing mindgames on your last girlfriend during the 2nd year you were seeing her helped you maintain an amazing relationship. Bypassing the question of why it ended if it was so amazing, the real wonder to me is how you could consider a relationship amazing when all your thoughts and actions concerning the relationship are directed towards her reactions and not flowing naturally from your own inclinations. How do you ever relax in a relationship when you’re busy calculating how many texts to send her to keep her interested without making her too comfortable?

    Back to Dogsquat’s advice to develop yourself, I think the real point of self development is to reach that point of freedom and independence at which you no longer NEED a woman. Then, any text you send is because you genuinely want to give her love and not because you’re worried about keeping her. And then, she’s never “comfortable” in the sense that she takes you for granted, because she knows you’re a man who’s going to live a wonderful and fulfilling life with or without her. And if she likes who you are, then she’s going to work at keeping you happy so that you stick around.

    I’m pretty sure you haven’t reached that spot yet. The thing that most sticks out about our last conversation was you telling me that you wouldn’t raise a finger to keep a passed out girl from getting taken advantage of in the alley outside your club because your bosses only pay you to take care of things at the club itself. That you WOULD go to help the girl if your bosses told you that it was in your job description. This tells me 2 things about you:

    1. You’re beta in the worst sense of the word. You’re putting following orders above any personal sense of right and wrong.
    2. You care little for people.

    Of course, YMMV. If playing mind games is making you happy and fulfilled, then keep at it, kiddo.

  • Olive

    @Nummm

    JM and Dogsquat have said it all.

  • DerHahn

    @Susan .. thanks for the kind words, and balance really is something I’m trying to find.  I think for ‘good guys’ (if I could put myself in that category) a little Game is a way to get a frame of reference to judge if our behavior is appropriate and productive. 

    @Olive, Sassy, et al

    I know guys have been ragging on Maya but I think she’s providing a good perspective.  She’s not just talking about her reactions to current or former guys she likes but also about how she reacted when she *didn’t like* the guy.  I think this is a key differentiation, and also something to think about when you’re tempted to respond But I Am Not Like That.  I think it was Ceer that put it well upthread that behaviors women like in men they are attracted to are creepy coming from a guy they don’t like.  She’s also a pretty good example of the way this differentiation happens at an almost subconcious level.

  • Ramble

    Numm,
    For what it is worth, I actually agree with you, for the most part. That is, that many normal, healthy girls respond positively to otherwise insidious mindgames.

    But,

    Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.

    Take it easy. Dogsquat detected something in your tone and responded in kind. He does not, as far as I have seen, attempt Alpha posturing on these forums. He was trying to help and, for you, it missed the mark. So be it.

  • Olive

    @DerHahn,

    I agree, Maya’s perspective is valuable here. She and I definitely don’t have the same tastes in men, but she knows what she wants and she knows how to articulate it. I think that makes all the difference. She’s not here saying “You guys, I can’t find any good men and I keep striking out every time I hook up with someone, and just because I haven’t been lucky, I conclude that all guys are assholes.” She’s also recognized, on another thread, that there aren’t that many dudes out there with all of the qualities she’s looking for. I commend her for sticking around.

  • Ceer

    @ Olive

    If a religion can fix the SMP, I wouldn’t mind forcing it on people…  The current militant atheism our society now operates under is still being forced on us.

    I have 2 female friends who I can honestly say are interesting and interested in intellectual discussions.

    My best friend has this problem.  He’d like to talk to his roommate about metaphysics and philosophy.  The typical response is either:  it’s useless to discuss, or rolling his eyes and changing the subject.  As a thoughtful introvert, I’ve learned that such talk rarely scares extroverts.  Unfortunately, the entire culture is geared for their orientation instead.

  • ozymandias

    Ceer: Our society operates under militant atheism? o.O Given that more people would elect a Muslim president than an atheist, that billboards saying such controversial stuff as “atheists are patriotic” or “you can be good without God” regularly end up with hundreds of horrified opinion pieces and letters to the editor, that the Boy Scouts does not allow atheists as members, etc., I think there is a serious Citation Needed there.  

    Susan: About half of Roissy’s slut tells are “if a woman likes sex, she’s likely to be a slut.” No, seriously, Roissy, without the benefit of your wisdom, I might never have realized that a woman who likes making out in bars might not be pure as the driven snow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ozy

      As I recall, some of his tells are things that any half-witted woman pretending to be chaste could avoid. However, if the woman has no idea the guy is filtering for this, then yes, she’ll probably communicate during sex in any number of ways that she is an expert with the equipment :-)

  • SayWhaat

    I was thinking tonight, how come there are SO many film protagonists that are dweeby guys? Hipster chic is part of it, but I think the media is reflecting young women’s sense that every guy is a dweeb. I swear, the last male protagonist under the age of 30 who wasn’t some squishy beta/omega type was Michael Oher in The Blind Side.

    I dunno, I’d say the media was reflecting every male screenwriter’s sense of being a dweeb and fantasizing about getting the girl.

    Although, did you see Ryan Gosling in Drive? Or Ides of March? Super-tingle.

  • Sassy6519

    Ryan Gosling is tingle inducing no matter what he does or what he wears.

    That man could make wearing a burlap sack look sexy.

    Good god that man……………drooooooool.

    He is by far one of my top celebrity crushes.

  • SayWhaat

    Olive,

    Why was this girl so eager to shut down a potentially enlightening conversation about a school project, a conversation we were supposed to have?

    Because it was due tomorrow. You said it yourself, lol. Look, I enjoy long conversations about film just as much as anybody else, but if I have a project due tomorrow, along with a shit ton of other stuff to do, then I’m not gonna indulge.

    But I just don’t see them USING their brains that often.

    I have found it very difficult to socialize with women without artificially increasing my “girly-ness” for conversational purposes.

    Your problem with girls may just be this. You’re looking down on them for being interested in whatever they’re interested in, and they can sense this attitude from you. So what if you don’t see them using their brains? Maybe they use their brains in other venues that you don’t frequent? Or they’re more socially intelligent than you are? If you don’t like hanging around them because you feel like you have to be more “girly”, then why are you hanging out with them? Why do you think being “girly” is so bad? That’s the impression I’m getting, at least.

    I always hear from girls (some of whom are my closest friends) about how I’m the only girl they can relate to, all other girls are “bitchy”. They don’t realize that they are the problem. It is not hard to form genuine, great relationships with girls. And I’m saying this as someone who could write a book about my experiences with mean girls.

  • Olive

    @Ceer,

    I’m gonna agree with Ozy here. I grew up in a very religious small town and found it to be stifling. Besides, you think Christian girls are chaste? I can count at least 6 female friends who said they would wait til marriage to have sex. None of them are married. I was the last one of them to lose my virginity.

  • SayWhaat

    Sassy, re: Ryan Gosling.

    Good God, I know. I didn’t even have a thing for blonds until him. I like how he’s good-looking, but in a manly way. He isn’t pretty the way other actors are, which is weird because I’m usually a prettboy fan. Maybe I’m growing up, lol.

    You may enjoy this tumblr: http://ryangoslingvspuppy.tumblr.com/

  • Sassy6519

    @ Say Whaat

    Thanks for the link. I’m resisting the urge to mount my computer as we speak.

    Being that hot should be a crime. Swoon.

  • ozymandias

    SayWhaaat: Given the general economics of Hollywood, I’m pretty sure that the popularity of dweeby guys has nothing to do with the screenwriter (as if! Screenwriters get about as much input as the caterer) and quite a lot to do with some people liking to watch dweeby guys get the girl (particularly since it’s a new-ish trend– Hollywood will continue doing things that have stopped working because they used to work, but it won’t start doing things that don’t work). Presumably, this audience is either dweeby guys or women who like dweeby guys.

  • SayWhaat

    Ozy,

    I’m pretty sure that the popularity of dweeby guys has nothing to do with the screenwriter (as if! Screenwriters get about as much input as the caterer) and quite a lot to do with some people liking to watch dweeby guys get the girl

    I agree, although writers own television, and we’re seeing the same trends play out there (Big Bang Theory, the Office, Suits).

    presumably, this audience is either dweeby guys or women who like dweeby guys.

    Hollywood loves seeing dweeby people get the guy/girl. Though romcoms today seem to be more along the lines of, “super-pretty starlet with key flaw that a guy loves her for anyway”. -__-

  • SayWhaat

    Sassy,

    Careful with that link, there are puppies there. :P

  • Sassy6519

    @ Say Whaat

    Good point. I wouldn’t want to compromise the puppies’ innocence.

    Speaking of the Ides of March, they filmed that movie in the greater Cincinnati area. I was super pissed to find out that they shot several parts directly downtown, literally on the same block that I work. I totally missed the opportunity to see him. I walk the same streets that he walked down everyday. They also shot a few scenes in Hall Auditorium at Miami University of Ohio. I went to that school.

    I should have tried to stake out the set. Missed opportunity indeed.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I had to Google who Ryan Gosling was, and still didn’t recognize him. He looks good, but I don’t see the big deal. He does have a manlier look, probably due to the larger jawbones.

    Then again I don’t really seem to have celebrity crushes often or tingle for them. I can appreciate them on an aesthetic level, but they just don’t do much for me.

    My last celebrity crush was Matt Damon because of Good Will Hunting, and that was over 10 years ago. Um, actually, 14 years ago. Geez, I’m really getting old and decrepit!

  • SayWhaat

    Sassy,

    You’re pissed? He supposedly lives in the East Village, very near me. (Not a stalkerish fangirl or anything, I swear, a friend told me this only recently.) I hope I never run into him or Joseph Gordon-Levitt for fear of ruining the fantasy!

    Hope,

    My first celebrity crush was Luke Wilson in Legally Blonde, lol. Harvard lawyers, mmm. :P

  • Sassy6519

    @ Say Whaat

    I’m starting to think we were separated at birth. I love Joseph Gordon-Levitt too.

    He has great dark features with a boyish face. A cold shower is truly needed now.

    I’ll throw one out there. One of my top three celebrity crushes is Jared Leto. I have no words when it comes to that man. His hotness shines with the intensity of a thousand suns.

  • ozymandias

    Joseph Gordon-Levitt is such a beautiful man. Did you guys see him in Inception? Honestly, I kink on suits so hard. You do not want to know the thoughts that go through my brain at the sight of an attractive man in a well-fitting suit.

     

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ozy

    Yes, I saw him in Inception. I went to the theaters to see it and remember how he took my breath away when I saw him in his suit. That man is fine.

    Ditto on your sentiments about suits. Men should wear them more often honestly. Nothing is sexier than a man in a suit to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Cure for the Gosling cravings:

      Lars and the Real Girl, followed by Blue Valentine. Warning: this is irreversible.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I used to work in a job at an international non-profit that had a strict dress policy. Every man had to wear a shirt and tie, no exceptions. A lot of guys wore full suits. It does tend to change how they get perceived, especially these days when fewer people dress so formally. It also made it hard to tell who were the “bosses,” and I imagine that actually contributed to better treatment of the regular employees in general.

    A tailored suit is probably like the male version of make-up. Or stiletto heels. Probably about as uncomfortable, too, although some say it’s not bad.

  • Dogsquat

    Numm said:

    Lemme get this straight, you go out of your way to be offensive in your post, then, you tell me no offense? Blow it out your ass you frootloop.

    No, I didn’t go out of my way to be offensive.  I called you an argumentative prick in another thread.  You were an argumentative prick, too, you just don’t like being called out on it.  I call people in traffic worse things every day, anyway.

    Jesus was the only person who seemed to calm you down, and that was with a feat of tact, logic, compassion, and sheer endurance I can’t hope to match.

    “Also, sure, I am angry as fuck. If, as a man, you are aware of what is going on in the mainstream media, in the academic world and the courts, you should be angry. Or you’re not paying attention.”

    You’re broadcasting that into the world.  If I notice it over the internet, everyone around you probably notices it.  You go on to describe yourself as pessimistic, vindictive, and cruel.  Here’s an honest personal ad:

    “Early twenties man with great job prospects seeks hot, nice, feminine woman for a relationship built on honesty.  I’m a former varsity athlete, well-traveled, with roots (and another language!) in Western Europe.  I’m quite accomplished on the piano, so your appreciation of Chopin is a must.  Be advised I am pessimistic, vindictive, and will argue with nearly everything you say.  I’m cruel, because you have that capacity, too.  I’m also angry as fuck.  Don’t ever, ever, ever suggest I change because I am perfect.”

    Dude, you’ve got the building blocks.  It’s your attitude that sucks.

    “I’m argumentative because you and Jesus made posts that consist of you talking down to me. Your advice wasn’t new or novel, it just wasn’t practical, and then your post had entirely too many tidbits about how great you are.”

    I’m not talking down to you.  I’m attempting to teach you something.  I’m offering another way to get what you say you want.  You’re bristling.  You don’t want to hear anything but,”You’re right and perfect, Nummm.  You deserve it all.”

    Also, I am great.  I’ve worked hard to become so.  It feels fantastic.  You could be better than me eventually, because you’re starting off earlier and you got a better start in life.  You’re also smart and arrogant, two necessary ingredients that are hard to instill.

    You’re 95% there as far as having an awesome life goes, but you’re steadfastly refusing to do the last bit of work on your own.  Does that mean you’re spoiled/entitled, depressed, or what?  I can’t tell – I just smell something rotten.  It doesn’t have to be that way, I promise you.  Look within yourself, play some mindgames on your own head and see if you can’t figure it out.

    Choose to be happy.  I wish you good luck, Nummm.

  • Esau

    Point, Ozy:

     I think what a lot of people don’t get is that they have to bring value into people’s lives to get a relationship; you don’t just get one for being a half-decent person. You get one because someone else wants to be in a relationship with you. It helps to be awesome. :)

    Counter-Point, Roissy:

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/be-a-skittles-man/  Money quote (one of several, it’s a classic):

    I often spoiled him with gifts, rides and sex only to receive a bag of Skittles in return. (I don’t even like skittles!) That was the only gift I ever received from him! I met a new friend and we were bonding over “worst ex-boyfriend stories” and suddenly we realized “boy, a lot of these sound the same… Was his name ____?” IT WAS THE SAME GUY!!!

    And the match goes to ….

  • ozymandias

    Ten bucks says Skittles Guy was a hotass.

  • I thought *I* was Bob

    A tailored suit is probably like the male version of make-up. Or stiletto heels. Probably about as uncomfortable, too, although some say it’s not bad.

    I miss wearing a suit. I love the pockets. I wore a suit every day for thirteen years. Then I changed jobs. It’s the kiss of death to wear a suit when the job doesn’t require it.

    Girls, f your man hates to wear a suit and tie, he’s probably still trying to wear his high school shirt size. Get him professionally measured for some new shirts. It makes a huge difference.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ozy

    I’m thinking the same thing.

    I can’t help but wonder how/why some women stay with men who are clearly not genuinely trying to bring good things to the relationship. Methinks they are gluttons for punishment, or the sex is fantastic.

     

  • http://www.triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Susan,

    Lars & The Real Girl is one of my all time faves, too, meant to say that the last time you mentioned it. Wish more people knew about that one. He’s not that much of a looker in it though, & Blue Valentine is HEAVY.  A man plummeting down into betatude through his love for a woman, who now is repulsed by him. Never seen that in a film before. But then never want to again….

    Joseph Gordon-Levitt is a really interesting actor on his way up – Brick is an amazing film-noir set in a high school. ‘Mysterious Skin’ is supposed to be good, going to check that out soon.  Personally, I  think he looks really good in Hesher.

     

     

  • Esau

    Ozy: “Ten bucks says Skittles Guy was a hotass.”

    Hmm, does being hot as a man count as “bring[ing] value into people’s lives” or as “be[ing] awesome”?  Somehow my money’s on … neither.

    Face it girl, you’re busted.  Getting into a relationship hinges not on bringing value nor on being awesome; it hinges on being attractive, without which nothing else matters.  And field reports indicate that bringing value and being awesome are not widespread attractors (yes, exceptions may exist, but not in significant number).  The sooner you admit the truth, the sooner you’ll start learning about the real world.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    Getting into a relationship hinges not on bringing value nor on being awesome; it hinges on being attractive, without which nothing else matters.

    Isn’t that a given? I mean for both men AND women?

  • Esau

    JM — Note that “given” does not have to mean “goes without saying,” especially when the opposite is being implied.  You’ve lived long enough to hear reams and reams of female descriptions of “what I want in a guy” which really should be termed “what I want in a guy that I already find attractive for other reasons“.  The confusion between the two, when a woman mis-labels the latter as the former, is a tremendous source of damage and violence in the world and we should all be ready to call it out on a moment’s notice.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    Two things:

    1. I think most women aren’t consciously aware of all of their attraction triggers.

    2. It’s only damaging to men who are trying to be the guy that women will find attractive. It’s not damaging to men who are content to just be themselves.

  • Esau

    Sassy at 154:

    I’m thinking the same thing.

    I can’t help but wonder how/why some women stay with men who are clearly not genuinely trying to bring good things to the relationship. Methinks they are gluttons for punishment, or the sex is fantastic.

    Since you’re already thinking, go ahead and finish the thought that’s right in front of you.  Sex would be “fantastic” with “men who are clearly not genuinely trying to bring good things to the relationship” because … male selfishness is sexy!  There, was that really so hard?

  • Esau

    JM

    1. I think most women aren’t consciously aware of all of their attraction triggers.

    2. It’s only damaging to men who are trying to be the guy that women will find attractive. It’s not damaging to men who are content to just be themselves.

    I certainly co-sign 1, which has a lot of explanatory power but still eludes the MSM.  Regarding 2 I think it’s true as written, but is not a lot of help to men who find that “just be[ing] themselves” results in multi-year stretches of celibacy.  Honestly, can you blame anyone in that situation — which I would bet is a majority among young men — for “trying to be the guy that women will find attractive”?  Isn’t that a basic imperative?  one which I have a hard time describing as either evil or foolish.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Esau

    I don’t think that was the right conclusion to be drawn. I said that the women were either gluttons for punishment or that the sex was fantastic.

    I have run into my fair share of women who have been “dickmatized”. The sex they had with a particular man was so good that they were willing to put up with practically anything to keep getting it. The selfish behavior wasn’t what was motivating them. It was what he could do with his penis/tongue/fingers.

    I think having good sex is a crappy reason to stay in a relationship with someone. When I broke up with my ex, I talked with some of my friendly acquaintances about it. They asked me why I broke up with him, I told them, then they asked me whether or not sex with him was good. I told them it was, and their responses were pretty much, “Why would you break up with him if the sex is good?” like it was common knowledge or something.

    I just don’t see the point in staying in a crappy relationship for good sex. Their statements led me to believe that a good amount of the women today have very shallow criteria to determine whether or not to stay in a relationship.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    I don’t blame anyone for anything. I’ve been a fool, too. And I’ve been, if not evil, then not exactly good at times. As for men “being themselves,” I think that men need to understand that as being their best selves; i.e. being the men they’ve always wanted to be.

    Most men aren’t “themselves.” Most people in general live lives of quiet desperation. They’ve compromised their principles, settled, played it safe, did what pleased others, remained inside their comfort zones, and backed down in fear. I know that’s how I lived most of my life. You can use the excuse that that’s what you were taught to do. You’d probably be right. That’s how most men are taught to live. Most women, too. But you can hardly blame women for being attracted when running across a man who doesn’t play by those rules.

    Or you can, but you’d only be playing the victim.

  • Anacaona

    I had to Google who Ryan Gosling was, and still didn’t recognize him. He looks good, but I don’t see the big deal. He does have a manlier look, probably due to the larger jawbones.

    I knew who he was but meh, the first movie I saw him was The Notebook and any man that steals a woman from good guy James Marsden gets a “forever unattractive” in my book, no to mention that I don’t find cheating romantic and Nicholas Spark doesn’t feel content with the love story he has to have a tragedy in it Hells only knows why, is like Joss Whedon decided to do romance or something. I also think when he tries to play Beta that actually is an Alpha trying to play a beta to get into someone’s pants ( I know ,it happens all the freaking time in my country) DO NO WANT!
    I do agree that Joseph Gordon-Lewitt is really good looking but I had been sort of following his career since 3rd rock from the sun I can’t see her as nothing but the little boy he played there so again no crush for him.

    My last celebrity crush was Matt Damon because of Good Will Hunting, and that was over 10 years ago. Um, actually, 14 years ago. Geez, I’m really getting old and decrepit!

    Heh I think it only means that once your dream man is next you in in bed there is not really a need to crush on fantasies anymore. I’m the same way. My first crush was Christopher Reeve in Superman I preferred Clark over Supes but cape boy is part of him too so he can come. I was five. Nowadays I ship more than crush. I’m a taken woman after all it would be selfish of me to desire a man I can’t really reciprocate. I do crush on men that never married though like Legolas, Data, Snape… but I mostly imagine pairing up with fictional women that never married either and plan very cool weddings and have babies and all that. I know I’m a sick woman, sue me. :p

    Ditto on your sentiments about suits. Men should wear them more often honestly. Nothing is sexier than a man in a suit to me.

    Hubby works in theater he never wears a suit we even got married in chacabana (what the ignorant about DR fashion people call mexican wedding shirt), I do like suits but I probably have to ask him to wear one when we have our affair. ;)

  • Esau

    Sassy: “The selfish behavior wasn’t what was motivating them. It was what he could do with his penis/tongue/fingers.”

    So tell us, straight up: do you really maintain that these two things are unconnected?  Seems to me that the two go together a little too often for that to be believable, ie they’re quite positively correlated.

    Really, I think it’s ridiculous to say that the quality of a woman’s sexual experience follows mainly from what a man does with his equipment; a lot also depends on what image of him she has in her mind generally.  An alpha and a beta could do exactly the same moves with their voluntary muscles, molecule for molecule, and the woman’s experience could be totally different between the two just because of her different attitudes toward them.  Seriously, do you disagree with this?

    So, once again, the short logical route through your original puzzlement is simple: selfishness is attractive, and having an attractive partner can be a big ingredient for better sex (though it’s not a guarantee, as Susan has attested).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      selfishness is attractive, and having an attractive partner can be a big ingredient for better sex

      Obviously the route from tingle to orgasm is a lot shorter than the route that begins with no tingle. A man who a woman is extremely attracted to obviously has a head start in pleasing her. However, it’s also true that many guys on the receiving end of this kind of attention don’t make much of an effort. The girl who wrote about having sex with Tucker Max said it was straight jackhammer until he came. Some men pride themselves on being good in bed, or just really like getting women off, or both – even the selfish ones, so YMMV.

      IME, sex with a generous and loving partner trumps all other sex by a mile. Obviously, some women are wired differently.

  • Esau

    JM

    Most men aren’t “themselves.”

    That’s a little too Yohami for me, sorry; I am but a bear of left-ish brain.

    Most people in general live lives of quiet desperation. They’ve compromised their principles, settled, played it safe, did what pleased others, remained inside their comfort zones, and backed down in fear. I know that’s how I lived most of my life. You can use the excuse that that’s what you were taught to do.

    No, I’d use the excuse — not the word I’d pick — that these are all rational decisions in a dangerous and confusing world.  Simple survival instinct, I can’t disrespect it.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Esau

    You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s an attraction to selfish male behavior that compels these women. I’m completely okay with the fact that we don’t see eye to eye on this.

    I can only give examples that I have seen during my lifetime. I have been acquaintances with quite a few women who have stayed in relationships with men they didn’t like because of good sex. The types of men spanned the gambit. There wasn’t a specific type.

    Some of the girls dated jerks, knew they were dating jerks, wanted to break up with them, but decided to hold off on breaking up with them because the sex was great between them. Some of the girls would have an occasional ONS with a guy they weren’t really attracted to out of desperation, only to be shocked and mesmerized at the fact that the sex was amazing between them. One girl I knew kept a particular guy in rotation with a few other guys she was seeing because he was supposedly the best sex partner she had ever had. She also had no problem telling me how she thought he was ugly physically, but that didn’t stop her from sleeping with him for good sex.

    Let it be known that I stopped talking to her a long time ago because of her behavior. I would never be able to respect myself if I continued to entertain her presence, considering her treatment of men.

  • Esau

    Sassy: “You and I will just have to agree to disagree.”

    Sorry, I don’t take your orders, and do not agree to any such thing.  I agree to keep after the truth, period.  If I think you’re plainly wrong then I’m going to say just that, regardless of what you want to agree to.

    And, along those lines:

    I can only give examples that I have seen during my lifetime. 

    Why is this?  You read this blog, perhaps among many others.  Why can’t you draw on, or learn from, examples described by (many, many) other writers?  And, on a lesser note:

    women who have stayed in relationships with men they didn’t like 

    I think this is a plain contradiction in terms, which probably goes a long way toward explaining why we don’t see eye to eye.  Good to know that you’re not losing any sleep over it, though.

    I do have to say, however, that I bow before the genius of the word “dickmatized”.  Is that original with you?  Props.

  • 108spirits

    Anyone remembers Eddie Murphy’s Raw? Once a woman makes those noises, she’s yours to be treated any way you want.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    104 Dogsquat wrote:

    If you wear glasses, get contacts or corrective surgery.

    Hmm. Why you consider using of classes to be problem?

    After all many of women use them also.

     

     


    (Hmm. Perhaps morning coffee is now ready?)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Esau

    I’m after the truth, just like you are. I don’t, however, attempt to be presumptuous by claiming absolute knowledge about a situation when there are various possible explanations. There are a multitude of reasons why women stay in relationships that are dysfunctional. You voiced your opinion on the matter and so did I. I just don’t see the point in going around in circles about whose right or wrong because it’s pointless. We are both right in this instance. Since there are many reasons for a woman staying in such a relationship, both of our explanations are viable.

    As far as the word “dickmatized”, I didn’t come up with it. It is a pretty common slang term of the past decade. It generally means a woman being compelled beyond reason by good sex/penis. These women are literally hypnotized by the dick, hence the word.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dickmatized

  • Dogsquat

    Kari said:

    Hmm. Why you consider using of classes to be problem?

    After all many of women use them also.

     

    Kari, some people require very strong prescriptions that distort their faces through the lenses. I was thinking of those folks when I wrote that. Astigmatism doesn’t do that noticeably – I was thinking about severe myopia or hyperopia.

    Myself, I am a sucker for the “quiet librarian” type of gal. Part of that “look” is glasses. Bonus points if she’s long, lean, and actually smart.

  • ozymandias

    Esau: I deliberately picked my phrases for vagueness. Yes, “great sex and DAMN he’s cute” is value, because in general one’s life is better with a really cute boyfriend and great sex than without a really cute boyfriend. It’s shallow as fuck, but guess what? Some women are shallow as fuck. (And no, “attractive” is not all of it. See also: golddiggers of all genders, people who marry someone respectable they want to have a family with because it’s expected of them and they want to have a family, etc.)

    You do understand that “Guy X is selfish” and “Guy X is a hotass” does not necessarily mean “Guy X is great in bed because he is selfish and therefore all women love selfish men”? Other possibilities include:

    –Guy X just happens to be both selfish and a hotass, and people tend not to notice the selfish guys who aren’t hotasses (or otherwise offer value to their partners) because they don’t get laid and that is what people expect.
    –Guy X is selfish because he is a hotass; he gets away with giving women Skittles as presents because damn those abs.
    –Guy X is a hotass because he is selfish; however, it is just those two women who dated him that regard him as a hotass because he’s selfish, and not all women ever.

    I think Option #2 is probably the most likely, all things considered.

    Anacaona: James Marsden is a sexy beast.

  • Anacaona

    Anacaona: James Marsden is a sexy beast.

    WORD. I seem to be in the minority that wanted him to end up with Gisselle in Enchanted and not Mcwhathisassholeface.

  • Esau

    Susan: “Obviously the route from tingle to orgasm is a lot shorter than the route that begins with no tingle. “

    Thanks for your common sense.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    JM

    Most men aren’t “themselves.”

    That’s a little too Yohami for me, sorry; I am but a bear of left-ish brain.

    Then that sucks for you. Though, to be honest, I think what I said was pretty straightforward and easily understandable.

    Most people in general live lives of quiet desperation. They’ve compromised their principles, settled, played it safe, did what pleased others, remained inside their comfort zones, and backed down in fear. I know that’s how I lived most of my life. You can use the excuse that that’s what you were taught to do.

    No, I’d use the excuse — not the word I’d pick — that these are all rational decisions in a dangerous and confusing world. Simple survival instinct, I can’t disrespect it.

    I’m not asking you to disrespect anything. Call it fear or call it survival instinct if you prefer. Hell, you can call it Aunt Polly for all I care. The point is that men who thrive are more attractive than men who merely survive. That’s life.

    IDK, man. You seem to want to justify everything a man does while at the same time vilifying women’s motives.

    You want to “call women out” for not being sexually attracted to niceness as if that’s the worst thing in the world and yet men are exactly the same.

    If someone were to ask me what I wanted in a woman, here’s what I would tell them: “I want a smart, sensitive woman with a good sense of humor. I want someone I can trust. I want a woman who can love and respect me as a man.”

    This is all true, but if a troll came crawling out from under a bridge with those very same qualities, you can bet I’m not going to snatch her up.

    The following is also true, but is usually left unsaid (at least in mixed company): “Ideally, I want a woman with gorgeous eyes and long lashes. I want long luscious hair that cascades down past her shoulders. I want a pair of good grapefruit sized tits, nice waist to hip ratio, a tight round ass and legs that are loooooonnnnng.”

    Am I damaging women by not telling them up front that that’s what I’m attracted to? I doubt it. Am I lying? I don’t think so. I really DO want all the things I tell them I want. I just want all those things in a woman I’d love to have crazy sex with.

  • Ramble

    The girl who wrote about having sex with Tucker Max said it was straight jackhammer until he came.

    And, if I remember correctly, he replied to her saying that when he meets a girl like her, he doesn’t put in much effort to make her all that happy. Basically, he said that since she acted like a slut, he treated her like one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And, if I remember correctly, he replied to her saying that when he meets a girl like her, he doesn’t put in much effort to make her all that happy. Basically, he said that since she acted like a slut, he treated her like one.

      Well, that’s my point. No connection beyond the sex = minimal effort. Why should he really care about a stranger’s pleasure? She’s there to give him pleasure. That’s why I refer to casual sex as masturbation with a warm body. Your partner is just the ultimate sex toy. Except that the orgasm rate is a lot lower, at least for women.

  • OffTheCuff

    A tailored suit is probably like the male version of make-up. Or stiletto heels. Probably about as uncomfortable, too, although some say it’s not bad.

    What? No! A good-fitting suit looks awesome, feels awesome, and *makes* you feel awesome. If you’re fat, you get a loose one and you look 100 times better. If you are in decent shape, get a fitted one… and look 1000 times better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A good-fitting suit looks awesome, feels awesome, and *makes* you feel awesome.

      In this era of casual business dress, my husband doesn’t wear suits as often as he used to. But when he puts one on in the morning I feel like making him late to work ;-)

  • Esau

    JM

    The following is also true, but is usually left unsaid (at least in mixed company): “….

    Am I damaging women by not telling them up front that that’s what I’m attracted to? I doubt it.

    You have the advantage that the work of telling this truth has largely been done for you, by others in advance.  The idea that men, in general, are attracted to women with luscious hair, good W/H ratio, tight ass, etc., and that this kind of attraction is a high priority for men, is hardly a secret!  You might not have said it explicitly out loud, but it’s the standard default cultural assumption that people, men and women both, will make about you — and correctly, in your case (and mine) — simply because you’re a man.  There is no large industry devoted to denying this basic truth about men; it’s alternately celebrated or complained about, depending on who you read, but it’s not generally denied.

    The women’s case is entirely different.  The truth of women’s attraction triggers — that confidence, dominance and self-regard absolutely trump honesty, kindness or intelligence — is not, in the present day, widely known or understood; you yourself said as much in the remark at 159 above.  (Apparently this truth was well-known back in the Patriarchical days of “Mad Men”, but the knowledge was lost under the feminist regime and now survives only as underground oral history.)  The big problem, as I (among many others) have said elsewhere, is not that any individual woman is lying about her tastes or is unaware of their true nature — though those are significant problems, mostly for the women themselves — it’s that the culture as a whole is lying about women’s tastes.  Unlike in the male case, here in the feminist-inflected West there is a significant industry devoted to hiding and denying the truth about women, and that industry does a lot of damage in the world.  (You’ve probably suffered from it as much as anyone!  just going by your testimony here.)

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Esau,

    But nobody here is lying about it. So it seems sort of inappropriate to “call out” ozy for a comment about a hot ass guy. Girls are attracted to hot ass guys. Guys are attracted to hot ass girls. Everyone here knows that.

  • Ramble

    That’s why I refer to casual sex as masturbation with a warm body. Your partner is just the ultimate sex toy.

    No, she is a girl that wanted to have (casual) sex.

    Now, think of her what you will, or, maybe even make excuses as to how she got like that, but there she is.

    When you say things like that, you are invalidating her choice to have casual sex.

    Susan, like you have said before, it seems that some girls, some people, are just not wired the way that you are. But, even there, you once had an interest in casual sex, but just not at the level that this girl did (or does).

    Personally, I am no Tucker Max, but, then again, I don’t care much for Scuba Diving either. Doesn’t mean that others should not do it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble
      I wasn’t defending that girl. Both she and Tucker Max used one another in lieu of masturbation. Neither is guilty of any kind of deception, and presumably they both got what they wanted. Clearly, what she wanted was not an orgasm but the opportunity to publish an article about hooking up with TM. I think she said he was actually a nice guy, just not good in bed.

      Tucker Max does not prey on women, he couldn’t if he wanted to, he’s too well known. Every woman who goes with him knows exactly what she is getting. As I pointed out recently with a link, he does hit on women who reject him, but as a backup, he announces after each speech where he’ll be drinking that night, and then he selects from among the college women who show up in hopes of fucking him.

  • Ramble

    In this era of casual business dress, my husband doesn’t wear suits as often as he used to. But when he puts one on in the morning I feel like making him late to work ;-)

    When I was in college, I had to wear a full suit for work (I was the only guy I knew who had to do so). The girl I was dating at the time fucking loved it. Sometimes, on the weekend, she would ask me to suit up just so she could get all tingly.

    The girl after her, with the suit, not so much.

  • Escoffier

    Hmmm, I wear a suit every day–been getting them custom made for 20 years–and I never get hit on.  Maybe it’s the ring.  Or maybe I am just ugly.

    Though this past February I was waiting for a friend in the bar of a fancy restaurant and two women were sitting there, and one of them kept trying to engage me in conversation and the other one was getting annoyed with her and being rude to me.  It was wierd.

  • Ramble

    I wasn’t defending that girl. Both she and Tucker Max used one another in lieu of masturbation.

    Susan, just because two people are having sex outside of love doesn’t mean that it is bad sex. Nor does it mean that it is in lieu of masturbation. In fact, it can be really hot.

    I am not saying that happened in the scenario mentioned above, but it is absolutely possible.

    I am completely on board with the mission of helping young women, and men, find the love that they desire. But, sometimes, if you are up for it, casual sex can be really great.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, just because two people are having sex outside of love doesn’t mean that it is bad sex. Nor does it mean that it is in lieu of masturbation. In fact, it can be really hot.

      I’m sure it can. Really hot masturbation. It’s just a matter of semantics, it doesn’t matter. The salient point is that no one has sex with a stranger as a genuinely loving act, defined by making someone else’s needs a priority, sometimes ahead of your own. Casual sex is most often characterized by a lack of females orgasms (only 19% of women have them in casual hookups) and intoxication. In the recent Reddit thread on this question, several men said it was actually less enjoyable than masturbation.

      In any case, my view is strictly strategic. A woman is far likelier to have good sex with a known and trusted partner, and for that reason among others I promote relationship sex. To each his own, however. Ain’t nobody stopping you.

  • Anonymous

    @Saywhaat,

    Sorry I keep chiming in late. School calls.

    A quick thing to point out here: the project I referred to was due yesterday, yes, but we were working on it two weeks in advance. There was no reason to “hurry up and finish it” other than, I think, that this girl wasn’t interested in the project. Or something. She confuses me, to be honest.

    Anyway, I’ve been thinking a lot about what you said. It’s true that I now have a natural aversion to girl groups, and, if unconsciously, I do tend to isolate myself from them these days. I’m becoming more aware of it, and I’ve started to believe I’m doing it on purpose, as a defense mechanism. So yes, part of my exclusion is my fault.

    Interestingly, I’m kind of like a guy who’s been burned by lots of girls, except I’m a girl. I say that only so you can contextualize my feelings toward girl groups, not trying to identify with frustrated guys being left out of the dating scene. I don’t just react to mean girls at this point, I react to all girls this way. So here’s why.

    When I was in high school, I was friends with 2 nerds, and they were miserable. They constantly tried to one-up me in conversations about grades (like “oh man, I got a 95 on this project, that sucks so much.” Knowing I had received a 90. Passive aggressive shit like that). When I got to college, I was determined not to be friends with people like this, because frankly, I had become just as much of a miserable wretch.

    SO, I tried to become more girly, not really in my physical appearance, but in my behaviors. I tried to be friendly, I stopped talking about intellectual stuff in social situations, and (this is the sad part) I became a gossip. I found it very easy to make friends with other girls because I gossiped, and spent a lot of time listening to gossip stories and adding what I had gathered from my gossip sources. I was still a terrible person, but at least I wasn’t miserable. I also had a very close group of female friends, for the first time in my life. And the best part was that for once, I didn’t feel excluded.

    Then, last year, shit hit the fan. My close group of best friends threw me under the bus because I had a conflict with my roommate that I tried to address honestly and openly. I found out that the only best friend I ever had wasn’t as close of a friend as I had thought, and this was extremely painful. I moved out, left the group, and survived the rest of college by reaching out to acquaintances and just being the gossipy self I had become. It was fine, but the experience is still very painful for me.

    The point is not that I hate mean girls, or that I hate what girls talk about. It’s that you can become girly, you can become someone you didn’t want to become so people will like you, and your best friend can still stab you in the back tomorrow. If that’s the result I get when I try to be more girly, why the hell should I even try anymore? Yes, some of it is my problem, and it’s something I’ve always had to deal with, since I was a kid. But meanwhile, I do think it’s something bigger, something beyond anything I can fix in myself. The fact that girls throw each other under the bus without flinching makes me cringe, and I’m not willing to entertain the idea that the reason is biological. I strongly believe it’s societal.

    Anyway, think of me as MGTOW, except without the men part. I’m sick and tired of being burned by girls, and I’m tired of putting myself out there, only to be thrown under the bus anyway. If I’m going to change myself to fit in, I want to be treated well. I don’t want to be treated like shit.

    Anyway, this was Olive’s full disclosure story of the day. Take from it what you will.

  • Olive

    And that last one was me.

  • Olive

    Also one more quick thing: I now recognize that my close group of college friends was extremely hypergamous, and I dabbled in hookup culture as a result. Before college I had only kissed one boy (my HS BF of 1.5 years), and the idea of casual making out grossed me out. The point is that I didn’t exactly enjoy hookup culture, but the influence of your hypergamous female friends is very hard to resist, especially when sitting it out might mean you don’t have a lot of friends. I’d been in the girl with “not very many friends” for too long. I wanted to try something different. Came back to bite me in the ass anyway.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Olive

    What I find interesting about your story is that it parallels a lot of the frustration male posters say they feel when it comes to women. You couldn’t deal with them as your non-girly self, so you changed. And then you couldn’t deal with them after developing a girly persona, either. There is a good case to be made that the fault lies with them and not with you. So now you’re Going Your Own Way.

  • Olive

    @Bellita,

    Exactly what I realized last night, which is why I kind of identified with the MGTOW movement. The sucky part is that, well, I’m not a man. There’s no place for me. I can’t go chill with the other MGTOWs or anything. So my social interaction these days is generally limited to family and my BF. And that’s just sad. Not how it should be, IMO.

  • Anacaona

    @Olive

    I’m really sorry that you had to go through all that. I actually can get allong with pretty much every woman, I think you can still do it but you need to only consider your friend a person that earns it. I never called someone a friend till they showed to me certain level of loyalty and good character, I considered then acquaintances and treat them well and nice but I knew what to give and what to conceal and not that is no hypocrisy is diplomacy girls are not that hard to treat as long you don’t see a pair of tits smiling at you and say “You are my best friend!” at the same instant. There is friendship at first sight and friendship that grows over time. Treat friendship with women the same way you will treat dating men. Not because it looks nice and you talked a couple of times it means that they are “your one true friend” take your time and I assure you will find two or three women that could be your friend forever while some of them will just come and go. Good luck in life, friendship and love.

  • Olive

    @Ana,

    Thanks, your insights are appreciated as always! :-)

    I also have a feeling it gets better as you get older. My mom was a lot like me when she was young, and now she has 50,000 female friends who all love her. It seems like women start to chill out about this intrasexual competition stuff once they mature/get married. They also start listening to NPR. ;-)

    Actually, that last one just applies to my awesome professor.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Olive

      It seems like women start to chill out about this intrasexual competition stuff once they mature/get married.

      You haven’t seen anything until you’ve seen the mommy wars.

      I have followed a few rules that have served me well with female friendships. I’ll share them here, for what they’re worth:

      1. Understand that there are different kinds of female friends. Some are good for going out with, but lousy at the emotional piece. Some are true blue, but prefer one-on-one soulful interactions. Some are co-workers or fellow students who really don’t have your back at all, and are best kept in a sort of “amiable acquaintance” categeory. Once in a while, you meet a woman who is truly a soulmate, a friend for life. I have had two of these. One I met when I was 13, the other when our daughters were 2 and in day care together. I’ve had many other women friends, of various duration and intimacy, but only two that I could count on no matter what. Read your friendships and budget your emotional energy accordingly.

      2. Keep toxic people out of your life – you’ve been discussing this here. I had one friend who seemed so loyal, supportive, fun and generous that it took me years to realize that I always felt a little down after spending time with her. Why? Because she doled out many tiny, well-hidden diminishments. It was like death by a thousand cuts.

      3. People change. One of my closest friends from grad school, one of my bridesmaids, dropped me very suddenly after about five years of close friendship. I have never learned why. I dreamed about her for many, many years – I had a lot of unresolved pain over that.

      4. I find that sometimes friendships end because of what’s happening in the other person’s life, and they have to start cutting back. Sometimes I don’t make the cut. I’ve had good friends that I saw only occasionally decide that I wouldn’t get invited to their kid’s wedding, or their 50th birthday party, or whatever. That can suck, but if we were that close it wouldn’t be a question. In a way, it makes life easier.

      5. Women are especially prone to schadenfreude, in my opinion. We compete much less directly than males, so sometimes we think someone has our best interests at heart, when in reality, they hope we’ll fall flat on our faces. Or at least that we won’t be as successful as they are. Some of the women who teased me and joked about my blogging early on loved meeting up for lunch and bestowing their blessings. Not one of them responded to my email when I got the mention in the Atlantic recently.

      6. You never know where friendships will come from. I learned when my mother died that some people I hardly knew reached out very generously, and other “dear friends” never even bothered to send a note. I became friends with one rather difficult woman in my book group only after I’d known her for 10 years. How did we become friends? She asked me to have lunch with her, and when I did I found that her difficult demeanor was really just reserve. We’ve been close for years now.

      7. Initiate with women you admire or want to know better. You will meet many interesting people. When you interact with a woman you like, suggest meeting up. This can be hard, almost as hard as asking out a guy! I have done this a few times and been rebuffed. Other times I have graciously wiggled out of an invitation because I was in no position to form a new friendship with that person or at that time.

      It occurs to me that a lot of this applies to male-female relationships as well.

  • Olive

    casual sex can be really great.

    I’m going to agree with Susan here. I’ve never had casual sex, but I had one casual encounter that went further than making out, and, well, it sucked. The dude was wasted, he had no clue what he was doing, and the whole thing was not pleasurable at all. FWB might be different, as you might have several encounters with the same person and be more familiar with his/her body. And the whole casual sex experience is probably way different for guys, since orgasms are much more difficult for females.

    But. I don’t think casual sex is really great for most girls.

  • Escoffier

    Causal sex is never great.  At best, it can feel great for a very short time.  That’s it.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Susan

    One of the drafts I’ve been having trouble with is mostly about a close friendship I had with another woman. I think your comment is helping me get over my blogger’s block!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bellita
      I’m glad! I hope that means we’ll see more from Blogging Bellita!

  • ozymandias

    Susan: Um… on a purely physical level, watching your partner get off is hot, so many people prioritize it even in casual encounters. I’ve had casual sex with two partners who prioritized my physical desires over their own. Of course, both partners had extenuating circumstances: one is a dom who liked to watch me squirm and drop me into subspace; the other has a low sex drive and honestly prefers cuddling, but was happy to get me off with his fingers. But “people who care primarily about their partners’ desires in casual sex” are not nonexistent.

    On an emotional level, “casual” means “uncommitted”, not “emotion-free.” Friendly sex is the best casual sex: you might not be picking out the ring or anything, but you like each other and enjoy each other’s company. I mean, masturbation is way less effort than casual sex and available upon demand; if I wasn’t getting anything better out of the casual sex, why the fuck would I do it? Casual sex can be some fun, happy, life-affirming shit that makes you want to squee and dance around and grin at passing strangers; masturbation is just an orgasm.

    I’m not denying that casual sex is terrible for many women AND MEN, but saying it’s just like masturbation is wrong. You’ve never, to my knowledge, had good casual sex; don’t generalize about those of us who have.

    Olive: It seems to me that the best idea is to find some friends (of any gender, really) who are not terrible.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ozy

      But ”people who care primarily about their partners’ desires in casual sex” are not nonexistent.

      Oh, I know. Some people are just more giving than others. And for some, there’s an ego element as well. I once read a letter from a guy who said that when he and his friends talked about how the girls they were with acted, they all claimed the girls were screaming, writhing, begging for more. He claimed the same things, but was worried because the girls he had been with moaned softly, didn’t claw his back or beg for a second round in just a few minutes. They did, however, get off. I assured him that the guy talk was straight from porn, which is highly unrealistic, and that it sounded like he was doing just fine.

      On an emotional level, “casual” means “uncommitted”, not ”emotion-free.” Friendly sex is the best casual sex: you might not be picking out the ring or anything, but you like each other and enjoy each other’s company.

      Hooking up is defined as an encounter where there is zero expectation of every seeing the other person intentionally again. (Bogle, 2008). By definition, physical intimacy precedes emotional intimacy, which develops potentially over a series of repeated encounters.

      I don’t really think of FWB as casual, because it generally involves a commitment of exclusivity, at least until someone else comes along. In that way, it is exactly like an LTR, which is also a promise of exclusivity until someone you like better shows up.

      I don’t presume to know the rules of casual poly romps. Again, you’re in the long tail.

      I’m not denying that casual sex is terrible for many women AND MEN, but saying it’s just like masturbation is wrong. You’ve never, to my knowledge, had good casual sex; don’t generalize about those of us who have.

      Well a generalization simply describes what is widespread or common, and lack of orgasms for women in casual sex is both. Obviously, YMMV, but in general, I’m writing for the masses here, not the outliers.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Love the female friendship advice, Susan. As a married woman who is starting to get to know and befriend other married women (mostly in their 30s), I am still struggling with some of this.

    I do have a great relationship with my MIL, which is wonderful. But I would love to find a girl whom I can talk about deeper stuff with, who is a nerd at heart like me… and so far she’s eluded me. :P

    Some of this is applicable to male-female relationships, but between men and women there’s less competitiveness and more sexual tension. I avoid deep friendship with men these days, too.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    I find it interesting that modern women are also having trouble finding really good friends among themselves. Is this a parallel to the modern man’s difficulty in finding a good woman to marry, or a completely different phenomenon?

  • Olive

    Thanks for the advice Susan. It’s true, I do almost feel like I’m dating, and that I’m having trouble asking people out. :-P It’s also true, though, that I’m just fragile and don’t really trust anybody at the moment. Gotta work on that.

    @Ozy,

    Easier said than done, at least for me.

    @Bellita,

    I’ve wondered this too. Is this female behavior at all related to the SMP? Are some women getting written off by other women because they aren’t hypergamous enough/they don’t have the hottest boyfriends/they, themselves, are not hot? I almost feel like I have to learn some version of girl Game to get friends. Strange concept.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Susan

    Thank you! I appreciate it. :)

    On that note . . . As I told a commenter whose response to my “Blogger’s Block” post seemed like a goodbye before a long ocean voyage, I’ve been blogging long enough to know that nothing cures blogger’s block faster than publishing a post about it and telling your visitors not to expect anything to read. Now that I’ve done that, I’ll probably have something up in a day or less! ;)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Bellita, maybe some of the same problems men have, plus competition between women. As marriages are less stable, women are more wary of befriending other women. Stories of people cheating on spouses with “best friends” are too numerous. Familiarity plus preselection makes the husband a ripe target.

    It’s the way of the modern hook up scene bleeding into relationships. Sometimes single friends wants to go out and “have fun,” codeword for getting drunk and trying to find a hook up. Not very stabilizing influences for a LTR. Sometimes the guy might not want to marry because he’d miss out on hook up opportunities. Or it can get really nasty with break-ups in a social circle if the guy dates a female friend, or girl dates a male friend, etc.

    With all of these factors (not even mentioning kids, common interests, and other circumstances), it can be tough finding and keeping good female friends and still have a good romantic relationship. All of my female friends right now are securely in LTRs or married, but we don’t really do anything besides lunches. My husband and I socialize with two other married couples online. It’s not the same as having a deep friendship with a best girl friend, but I take what I can get.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Olive

    I almost feel like I have to learn some version of girl Game to get friends. Strange concept.

    Strange, yes, but if we all do start Gaming other women just to make friends, we’ll in a better position to discuss with men whether or not the women who require that they be Gamed are actually worth keeping around!

  • Olive

    @Susan, re: casual sex,

    Have you seen this article, from the PSU Collegian?

    http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2011/10/06/mounting_nittany.aspx

    This girl seems to be seriously idealizing casual sex. Not to mention racking up the numbers. If it’s really that good for her, fantastic. I’m rather skeptical…

  • Anacaona

    Great conversation about female friendships!

    I think there is also that there is not rules in friendship people call friends everyone that is nice to a person, like niceness is some sort of sacrifice I’m nice to everyone regardless and I never expect anything heck I don’t even expect they will be nice to me. Is like the equivalent of having casual sex with someone hoping for a relationship, it doesn’t work all the time. I also noticed that the trend of divorce and obesity being contagious can be applied to pretty much everything, thus picking friends in the same page as you and being mature enough to drop them or move them from close to friendly if they start to become a toxic person for your relationship is hard and people resent it as backstabbing and lack of loyalty, hard to make this things change.

    You should make a post about this Susan. I do think that the quality of your dating life can be affected by the people close to you so is better to know when to keep and when to let go, YMMV.

  • Olive

    I totally agree with Ana. Last year if I had stayed with those friends and just been secretly miserable instead of trying to address the conflict like an honest person, my relationship would’ve been ruined. You really have to be careful with that “chicks before dicks” mantra, sometimes the “dick” is the only one who will be there for you. And sometimes he gets sick of hearing about all your girly issues, which is when you should probably start wondering about the health of your “friendships.”

  • ozymandias

    FWB has a promise of exclusivity? Really? I have never had a FWB relationship with the assumption of exclusivity (as opposed to de facto exclusivity).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I have never had a FWB relationship with the assumption of exclusivity (as opposed to de facto exclusivity).

      Hmmm, in this case wouldn’t that be the same thing? Maybe you just avoid the DTR talk?

      FWB originated so that people could have sex with one regular person without emotional entanglement. For both parties, it’s physically safer, assuming it is exclusive, and it is often assumed to be emotionally safer than getting naked with a stranger, though that often turns out to be disastrously untrue. I’m not sure what the purpose of FWB would be if it were not exclusive. That’s just banging randos with one getting more action than the others?

  • anonymous

    Escoffier :  “Causal sex is never great.  At best, it can feel great for a very short time.  That’s it.”

    Since you’re making the rounds in the manosphere, when you get a chance, make your way over to avoiceformen.com and type in the search “elam vs frost”

  • Tasmin

    @Susan

    Your post #198 to Olive was just great.   I have found that women with a couple/few loving, reliable, and healthy female friendships are more satisfied than those with these big oscillating packs of “friends”.  Goes for men as well, but I think men *seem* to be better at maintaining boundaries or some other things that allow them to manage their investment in terms of time, emotion, money, etc. in their more casual relationships. It seems to be much more above-board. Whereas women are expected to play in the grey with subtleties and mind-reading and endure the sucking negativity of someone just because they went to the same college. There seems to be a greater fear of “being a bad friend” or the loss of a friend than men possess.  But either way, people like to have things, collect things, and control things and unfortunately people are often treated as things.  Facebook plays into this in a big way.

    Also, for some reason many women I have been close with prefer the company of men – not necessarily as one-on-one friends, but more in the vein of casual social situations. I’ve known several women that cringe when there is that separation of men and women at a party because they struggle to connect with women in group settings or find them to have some kind of low-level hostility.  They prefer the mens side of the room or more one on one.  And that separation is somehow enforced by the women; a woman that prefers to stay in the living room and talk politics or sports or whatever exposes herself to some strange shit from the other women.  I think the guys don’t really care as long as the women can ‘hang’.  But the reports that I get from the other side of the house after the fact often seem to indicate a less than open forum environment – the conversation seems to quickly morph into a show of power in terms of topics and ‘expertise’ – which almost always relates to status, which is the same old identifying the ‘have and have nots’. Married, House, kids, husbands gig, her gig, kids achievements, vacations, etc.  E.g., Married women with a baby seem incapable of talking about anything other than the experience of the baby and will work to control, dominate the conversation accordingly. Topically, the conversation works to separate, measure, and dole out value accordingly. In mixed company, it happens as well, but for some reason when the ladies leave, it becomes more colloquial. Guys, married with kids or not, still like boobs, booze, cars, sports, boring business antics, dirty jokes, and blowing on about taxes or about how “this guy at work…”  Sure there are some settings where the men just suck and/or when a blowhard guy can just suck the air out of the room, but often the group will work to shut that guy down and either way, the men aren’t going to lose any sleep over it.  Guys are used to that situation, that is every schoolyard, college dorm, sports team, office setting, and bar. It has been touched on here, but why does it seem to be so much more difficult for female friendships to survive the transitions of life than male friendships, e.g. single-boyfriend-engaged-married-promoted at work-baby-move to burbs- etc. And this also translates to forming new ones.  Married guys still like to hang with single guys, or guys with no kids, they *seem* to be more open to mixing lifestyles. Whereas women become more entrenched in their specific self-assigned places in life.  It seems like it is how competition and status are viewed and managed by women vs men, but I would be curious to hear your take.

     

     

     

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      Whereas women become more entrenched in their specific self-assigned places in life. It seems like it is how competition and status are viewed and managed by women vs men, but I would be curious to hear your take.

      Most definitely. Bottom line, the female intrasexual competition never stops. That’s why a soulmate girl friend is such a treasure. That’s the only time the competition stops, and even that is not true 100% of the time.

      I’ve referred to it before, but the worst female competition I have ever endured was in the workplace. Not at business school – not at all. But working? The gloves were off and the women were clawing one another venomously! I once had a female coworker go into my computer and alter files on a day when I was out sick. She changed the values in some Power Point slides for a presentation to the CFO. I knew the material so well I saw it immediately and called her out. She finally admitted making the changes and I took it straight to our boss.

      Believe it or not, the dynamic was precisely the same when I was president of the PTA at my kids’ school. Who really wants to get competitive over a bake sale?

  • Anacaona

     E.g., Married women with a baby seem incapable of talking about anything other than the experience of the baby and will work to control, dominate the conversation accordingly.

    It works the other way around too, if any of the girls is “single by choice” or “Childless by choice” she can become the one looking to show that her choice is better and try and dominate it. The power dynamics among women vary, the level of cattiness also plays a part. I will mention an example I have two close friends my best friend M (which is like a sister to me) and a friend that I also knew from college but that is on her way to go from friend to acquaintance that likes to call herself Bitch. So am I both a Potterhead and a Twihard (and a Pieho!). Bitch is a Potterhead and M is a twihard when we used to gather together Bitch and I used to talk a lot about HP in front of M she didn’t knew the material but she was fine with seeing us talking about something we both enjoyed and had in common, now when I decided to talk Twilight with M it wouldn’t be five minutes before Bitch started to interrupt and sometimes even said clearly “That is enough!” because she hated to feel left out even for a second, she did this with pretty much everything she wasn’t familiar with, movies, people, job…. Most of us decided to let her shine since she craved it so much and bond when she was not around now from the outside it might look like she had the power she was also the prettiest of us all, but in big matters Bitch couldn’t make us do anything beyond let her have the spotlight.

    I also saw something interesting I was the designated spinster on my group of five but the moment I got a boyfriend the girl that was also single L got completely undiscriminating and started to date every available men, including losing her virginity to one of her boyfriends (all my friends married the man they lost it to during the engagement) and another one became a christian just to chase a guy she was interested to.

    In retrospective I think they might were thinking that they lost the status they had when I moved up by having a boyfriend (and at this point they knew that if I was talking about him wedding was in the plan) and wanted to regain their status by marrying first, with ill consequences like being a single mother now. But then when I meet my husband all his pack of friends were single except for the Alpha (his best friend) and less than a year till we made it official all of them had girlfriends and two of them married fast, the last one is living with his girlfriend. So I do wonder if men also play a part in this effect domino of social relationships.

  • Olive

    @Tasmin,

    Married guys still like to hang with single guys, or guys with no kids, they *seem* to be more open to mixing lifestyles. Whereas women become more entrenched in their specific self-assigned places in life.

    Yes this is very true in a college setting as well. And I kind of think hypergamy is a part of status indication, weirdly enough. When I think about the root of my conflict with my roomie, I really think it had to do with setting our boyfriends up against each other. When her BF was around, all our friends loved him and praised him (he had been considered a “hottie” earlier in college, although he looks kind of like an old man now LOL). Meanwhile my BF got ignored or treated like shit when he was around. This is something he brought up to me a few times, basically claiming that my friends didn’t like him. At the time, my reaction was “you need to find a way to get along with them, because they aren’t going anywhere.” But why didn’t I tell them they needed to be kinder towards him? I think for two reasons: 1) I was playing into the chicks before dicks mantra, and 2) I didn’t recognize that my friends were actually treating him like crap, perhaps because they didn’t see him as “worthy boyfriend material.”

    We almost broke up over the whole thing. Would’ve been the worst decision of my life.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “Believe it or not, the dynamic was precisely the same when I was president of the PTA at my kids’ school. Who really wants to get competitive over a bake sale?”

    Girls are so weird.

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/i-told-you-that-girl-crazy/

    “She’s trying to destroy you? You wrap presents at the JC Penney!”

    Olive,

    “And I kind of think hypergamy is a part of status indication, weirdly enough.”

    This makes me wonder – is hypergamy about women mating with high-status guys, or is it that women intrinsically want to BE high-status, and they can “borrow” the status of a high-status male who boffs/commits to them? Given women’s penchant for status contests like fashion that guys give zero shits about I’m wondering if it isn’t the second one, and that when it comes to hypergamy men are just vessels, instruments of female intrasexual competition. No, I have not had my midnight Manhattan yet.

    I didn’t recognize that my friends were actually treating him like crap, perhaps because they didn’t see him as “worthy boyfriend material.”

    I don’t get what’s up with women feeling justified committing relational terrorism on guys they don’t approve of, as if their girlfriends had asked that the other girls subtly test and alienate the guy.

    I guess there’s a lot of I’m just sayin’ in these girl groups. (http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/im-just-sayin/)

    This happened to me constantly with my last girlfriend, it was actually a factor in our breaking up. At the end I was forced to conclude she wasn’t that serious about telling them to shut their pie holes because she wanted to use them as a proxy way of criticizing and shit-testing me.

    Women in college could use some serious social work.

     

  • Olive

    @Badger

    Given women’s penchant for status contests like fashion that guys give zero shits about I’m wondering if it isn’t the second one, and that when it comes to hypergamy men are just vessels, instruments of female intrasexual competition.

    Hmmm fascinating. Yes, this has occurred to me, and I think I’ve even hinted at it in some posts without even realizing it. In a way, guys have become material objects girls can use to rub in each others’ faces. It would certainly make sense, and would kind of explain some of the divorce rates. It’s not necessarily that all women marry guys to get their money. Maybe it’s that they date guys to show them off, marry them, and realize years later that they didn’t actually marry for love.

    This is a whole new side of hypergamy I hadn’t really considered. Are we entertaining the idea that hypergamy could be a product of materialism? Princess Syndrome certainly is. Will need to think on this; would love to hear what others have to say. Wish this thread wasn’t going dead.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    195 Olive wrote:

    They also start listening to NPR. ;-)

    NPR = National Public Radio ?

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    202 Hope wrote:

    I do have a great relationship with my MIL, which is wonderful.

    MIL = Mother-In-Law ?

     

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    218 Susan Walsh wrote:

    […] I was president of the PTA at my kids’ school.

    PTA = Parent-Teacher Association

    I assume.


    I think that a evening coffee is ready.

    ( Must turn on sauna. )

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    172Dogsquat wrote:

    Kari, some people require very strong prescriptions that distort their faces through the lenses.

    I see. There is also some distortion also on my avatar picture.

  • carrie

    This is going to sad so terrible. I found the index card so strange and now that this guy I’ve BARELY spoken to hasn’t replied, I felt this urge to come and read it so I don’t text him. What is it about estrogen that makes us act like that?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @carrie
      Don’t text him! You can get plenty of support here. If you put it out there and he hasn’t responded, move on! Don’t waste the pretty!

  • Anacaona

    Hmmm fascinating. Yes, this has occurred to me, and I think I’ve even hinted at it in some posts without even realizing it. In a way, guys have become material objects girls can use to rub in each others’ faces. It would certainly make sense, and would kind of explain some of the divorce rates. It’s not necessarily that all women marry guys to get their money. Maybe it’s that they date guys to show them off, marry them, and realize years later that they didn’t actually marry for love.

     

    You know I mentioned that I have always being able to set myself appart from the herd another thing is that I’m very low in cattiness, I rarely ever compare women or feel jealous of their success, whether prettier, richer not sure I do feel a hint of jealousy with tallest girls and with smarter girls but I usually get over it soon, never became a competition even if the girl wanted to title I was happy to let her shine if that is what she wanted I had always being the power behind the throne kind of gal and as long as the goal was accomplished getting the credit was not important to me, I mean I’m happy when I get it, but is not my identity. I wonder if lack of the need to compete and gain status is important to not be herded or to realize when the herd is toxic and should be able to move on.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    This is a whole new side of hypergamy I hadn’t really considered. Are we entertaining the idea that hypergamy could be a product of materialism?

    So we’re saying that whereas in former times women would’ve been content with a certain level of dominance and attraction, women today are competing with each other for the most prized possession–i.e. they want the man that everyone else longs for?

  • Olive

    @Ana,

    I wonder if lack of the need to compete and gain status is important to not be herded or to realize when the herd is toxic and should be able to move on.

    I definitely think you’ve hit on at least part of the story here. Also if you don’t see guys as material objects to compete over in the first place, maybe that sets you apart from the herd as well. Most female herds aren’t really about community, they’re about competition and conformity.

    @JM,

    Yes sort of. I don’t think the root of hypergamy (“finding the best mate/gene pool”) has gone away. Maybe this is just the modern version of hypergamy, fueled by materialism.

  • Anacaona

    I definitely think you’ve hit on at least part of the story here. Also if you don’t see guys as material objects to compete over in the first place, maybe that sets you apart from the herd as well. Most female herds aren’t really about community, they’re about competition and conformity.

    Could be that is why is better to have one or two trusted friends than belong to a herd it seems like. I think another reason herd have gained more power (and vice as consequence) is that it has replaced the family as the ideal. Now families can be broken by pretty much everything and the herd is supposedly chosen so you can pick people you like from the beginning, while in a family you need to learn to get along with all sorts of individuals. Keeping the herd together can be a desperate attempt to have the stability that one doesn’t have coming from a broken home with a revolving door of boyfriends/girlfriends that never seem to stay.

    This ideas are so interesting in an ideal world we could make social studies about the relationship between broken homes and the need to belong to a herd or willingness to follow the sister’s advices. But of course no one would ever suggest such a study or fund it and feminists will discredit anyone saying that being raised by a “happy” single mother is nothing but the best for a child, no matter what…such a shame :(

  • anonymous

    Anacaona  @ 11:25 pm

    Could be that is why is better to have one or two trusted friends than belong to a herd it seems like. I think another reason herd have gained more power (and vice as consequence) is that it has replaced the family as the ideal. Now families can be broken by pretty much everything and the herd is supposedly chosen so you can pick people you like from the beginning, while in a family you need to learn to get along with all sorts of individuals. Keeping the herd together can be a desperate attempt to have the stability that one doesn’t have coming from a broken home with a revolving door of boyfriends/girlfriends that never seem to stay.”

    The herd is not the ideal by choice.  The herd has gained power because people are growing up spending more time with their peers than with their family.  Daycare, preschool, school, extracurricular activities, after-school programs, etc..  Children are often censored and/or removed from cross-age interactions so they are too peer-dependent.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The herd has gained power because people are growing up spending more time with their peers than with their family.

      Interesting thought, I think you’re onto something. At various times in their lives, both of my kids were victims of the herd, and that was a time for intense support from family. What do kids do who are having a rough time of it and no one is there to listen and empathize?

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “The herd is not the ideal by choice.  The herd has gained power because people are growing up spending more time with their peers than with their family.  Daycare, preschool, school, extracurricular activities, after-school programs, etc..  Children are often censored and/or removed from cross-age interactions so they are too peer-dependent.”

    I don’t think this is factually true. I read of a study that today’s mothers and fathers both spend more time with their kids than mothers did in the 1950’s, supposedly the heydey of the SAHM. And parents used to just send their kids out the door for sports and activities, now they drive them everywhere.

    I think you are on the right track in the wrong direction, though – helicopter parenting has made young people fragile and afraid of failure, so they seek conformist groups for superficial approval.

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/pressure-free-fun-received-boomerism-and-the-fear-of-failure/

  • Ramble

    Interesting thought, I think you’re onto something. At various times in their lives, both of my kids were victims of the herd, and that was a time for intense support from family. What do kids do who are having a rough time of it and no one is there to listen and empathize?

    This is an idea that has been debated in far off corners for a while now, that, your average 14 year old (or, pick some other age) spends a ton more time around other 14 year olds than what was once common.

    It is not difficult to imagine a past where your average 12 year old spent time with, and looked up to, and wanted to emulate, your average 15 year old…who felt the same about your average 18 year old, who felt the same about…etc.

    Instead of wanting to be more mature and more responsible, like the older kids, they want to be more popular with those that have mastered the lowest common denominator.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Badger,

    I like the term “helicopter parenting.” Did you come up with that?

    I agree. Modern parenting isn’t bringing out the herd instinct in children. Modern parenting may be making kids weak and ineffectual, but I think mass marketing to children has brought the herd instinct to the fore.

  • Olive

    @Ramble,

    Instead of wanting to be more mature and more responsible, like the older kids, they want to be more popular with those that have mastered the lowest common denominator.

    College has played a huge role in this as well. In the past, women would graduate from high school and get married. They would go directly from their parents’ oversight to marriage. Now they go to college, where they are largely exposed to the female herd without parent supervision for the first time.

  • Olive

    but I think mass marketing to children has brought the herd instinct to the fore.

    Yes, and this fits right in with what I’ve been saying about hypergamy and materialism. In my experience, hypergamy has been a herd behavior, propelled by female fantasies taken directly from images provided by mass media and advertising. The Twilight movies “sell” Edward Cullen to us as the ideal man. Movie previews “sell” attractive actors like Leo DiCaprio and George Clooney. It’s about selling the product (the movie ticket or the DVD), but it’s also about selling the image.

  • Ramble

    Yes, and this fits right in with what I’ve been saying about hypergamy and materialism. In my experience, hypergamy has been a herd behavior, propelled by female fantasies taken directly from images provided by mass media and advertising. The Twilight movies “sell” Edward Cullen to us as the ideal man. Movie previews “sell” attractive actors like Leo DiCaprio and George Clooney. It’s about selling the product (the movie ticket or the DVD), but it’s also about selling the image.

    Olive, I am curious, what are your thoughts on all of those movies that Hollywood and Madison Avenue sunk millions and millions into making and marketing that went nowhere? And, then, after that, all of those movies and TV show and musicians that got very little marketing bu then exploded.

  • Olive

    @Ramble,

    Could you give me an example? It’s not really about what actually made money, it’s about WHO gets publicity. You can’t deny that Edward Cullen has become a media image. Or that girls my age are jealous Blake Lively got to date Leo. Sure, George Clooney has been in some really shitty movies, but he’s still George Clooney.

  • Ramble

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biggest_box_office_bombs

    • The Island with Scarlett Johansson and Ewan McGregor
    • Gigli with J-Lo and Ben Affleck (the amount of unpaid promotion that movie got because of their relationship was huge)
    • Dune
    • Godfather 3
    • Ishtar
    • The Green Lantern
    • Land of the Lost
    • etc
    • (The List of TV Shows is actually staggering…2 very recent examples: The Playboy Club and Pan Am)

    and, on the flip side

    • My Big Fat Greek Wedding
    • There’s Something About Mary
    • Ace Ventura (Jim Carrey was just one actor on a cable variety show)
    • Mad Men
    • Fear Factor (the show was meant to run for 6 months, MAX)
    • UFC (it’s history is fascinating…the amount of money that was sunk into it materializing in very little and then Dana White giving birth to something very successful)
    • etc.

    There are tons and tons of examples. On both sides of the coin.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Olive,

    It’s about selling the product (the movie ticket or the DVD), but it’s also about selling the image.

    Yea. It’s about selling the image in order to push the product. The problem becomes, once the “image” is sold, it begins to influence our entire worldview.

  • Ramble

    Hell, I just looked this up as well, about a TV show that got a lot of advertising on AMC and debuted to big numbers:
    Rubicon debuted on AMC on August 1, 2010[2] as a two-hour, two episode block. With two million viewers, the August 1 premiere set a record as the most watched debut of an AMC original series at that time.[3] However, after the two first weekends, the number of viewers dropped to 1.2 million,[4] leaving a core of 1.0 – 1.3 million fans each weekend.[5] Due to low viewing figures, AMC cancelled Rubicon on November 11, 2010″

  • Anacaona

    Yes, and this fits right in with what I’ve been saying about hypergamy and materialism. In my experience, hypergamy has been a herd behavior, propelled by female fantasies taken directly from images provided by mass media and advertising. The Twilight movies “sell” Edward Cullen to us as the ideal man. Movie previews “sell” attractive actors like Leo DiCaprio and George Clooney. It’s about selling the product (the movie ticket or the DVD), but it’s also about selling the image.

    I disagree with this take but you are onto something I don’t beleive selling the ideal man is the problem (really how old is Pride and Prejudice?) but the fact that a) Kids have a lot of free time now spent with their peers delaying maturity or adulthood. Teenagerhood is a modern invention. In the past kids went from childhood to marriage with learning a few skills as soon as they could or becoming apprentices in the craft they were going to spent the rest of their lives. Now kids live in teenager years a lot of time and don’t have any obligations aside from studying and a lot of disposable income. The media reflects and reinforces the status quo but is the adults that decide how much it influences their kids. Also Edward is not sold as the ideal man he just is the ideal man for Bella (and he for her) and that is what the text says, we happen to agree with it (Team Edward forever!:p), but I don’t think is a massive plan is just cannon . I myself don’t think George Clooney as attractive, but many women do. I think they also have a personal taste for this guy and he just happened to had been born in the right place at the right time, YMMV.

  • Olive

    @Ramble,

    JM said exactly what I wanted to say in #242, but much more succinctly.

  • Anacaona

    I forgot B) family has lost its moderation influence no matter how crazy a teen was their parents used to make sure he/she wouldn’t do something too stupid. Nowadays there are limits to parental power and more often than not an absentee father so the kids can get away with a lot more with little repercussions so their herd rules them with strength.

  • Ramble

    Olive, you have not answered my question…and, you don’t have to. Free country and all that.

    I gave lots of examples of different Movies and TV Shows (along with tons more listed on one page in Wikipedia which does not even have any TV shows listed) that show how much time, money and effort was spent by the powers that be in Hollywood and Madison Avenue to get us to watch those movies and programs.

    Yet, we didn’t. Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no.

    And there are tons of examples of things that got very little marketing and sold like Hot Cakes.

    Honestly, what are your thoughts on all of those failures? They have the image, the money, the power, the influence t get us to watch, right?

    Why didn’t we?

  • Olive

    LOL honestly? Because the movies themselves probably sucked. I’ve never even heard of a lot of the movies on your list, but that’s probably because I rarely watch TV.

    I don’t really have thoughts about why the American public didn’t go see those movies, I can only tell you that I have become weary of these big budget films that don’t stand out to me as fantastic movies (Pirates of the Carribean comes to mind). I studied abroad 3 years ago and hung around with some girls who wanted to go to the movies every week. Mexico only gets the big blockbuster American films, so that’s what we saw: Eagle Eye, Bangkok Dangerous, House Bunny. I thought most of them were stupid. I’m content watching old classics over and over again. Ferris Bueller never stops being fantastic, no matter how many times I watch it. It’s a personal preference thing.

    Anyway, not sure if that answers your question but I must run away to a meeting now. Will be back later (Anacaona, I need to read what you posted more closely and think about it). Great discussion!

     

  • Ramble

    Olive, what you said earlier was,

    “It’s about selling the product (the movie ticket or the DVD), but it’s also about selling the image.”

    What I am trying to say is this: it is not about what they are selling, but about what we are choosing to buy.

    The powers that be, in these scenarios, are not foisting things on us as much as attempting to provide what we want.

    In many cases they are attempting to predict what we are likely to demand.

    It is an important distinction.

  • Anacaona

    @Ramble

    To continue the discussion I do believe there is a combination of factors but that media can influence culture if directed to this end. Proselitism is the word in advertising for that. But for something to become influencial you need to minimize any counterpoint or critique against your point. Materialism sells because kids at home see their peers competing with clothes and designer labels and gadgets but is their parents that provide the money for the kids to aquire the goods. Because they are also competing, the whole “helicoptering parenting” is also a form of competition (who is the most dedicated and involved parent?) in the case of drecks like Gossip Girls and Sex and the City, there is a lot of society handwaving because the show along with materialism sell sex positivism, so the mainstream makes sure women get the message that being promiscuous is cool and glamourous and has not ill consequences. I used to comment and read Jezebel for over a year and they all make sure their relatives, kids, and anyway they can influence wouldn’t watch a show or read a book without they making sure they knew how feminists or anti-feminists it is and in many cases forbid their kids from watching anything they disagree upon. Hence media does influence but it needs the help of the people in the culture to make the sell in the end. I’m pretty sure those movies that bombed had other circumstances that allowed them no to connect or simply marketing people made a mistake about how many people were actually interested in that particular movie, YMMV

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Ramble, my husband and I enjoyed Green Lantern — quite a lot, actually. Have you seen it? It had a great spiritual message plus aliens. Nerdy and corny and actiony. I am also a huge fan of the Dune book series (still my favorite books of all time) and have sat through some quite awful screen adaptations. Again, an awesome spiritual message about overcoming fear, plus science fiction goodness. Maybe the movie didn’t stick close enough to the plot. The books were rather heavy on philosophy, and that’s not very marketable for the mainstream.

    Hollywood marketing fails sometimes because certain movies get the reputation that it’s “bad,” and once it has that rep slapped onto it, it’s all over. The whole thing is just a massive popularity contest that weird people like my husband don’t care about, but we don’t buy enough to make up for the rest. We don’t even own a standalone DVD player that isn’t attached to our computers.

    My husband told me that he got the “undateable” reputation in school, and all the girls stayed away from him after that. Maybe the same thing happens to movies. After a while, nobody even bothers to verify if it’s true. They just assume other reviewers know what they’re talking about and ignore the “unpopular” product altogether. Sure, there are probably reviews that are absolutely right, but you never know with niche tastes.

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Ramble,

    What I am trying to say is this: it is not about what they are selling, but about what we are choosing to buy.

    The powers that be, in these scenarios, are not foisting things on us as much as attempting to provide what we want.

    In many cases they are attempting to predict what we are likely to demand.

    It is an important distinction.

    It’s an important distinction, but it doesn’t negate what we’re saying.

    Check out this scenario:

    You need to prepare for a very important presentation you’ll be giving. You decide to get away for the weekend, stay at some lodge up in the country, and focus on working on that presentation.

    You’re on line to check in at your lodge and a beautiful woman starts up a conversation with you. She’s very flirty and very touchy. She gives you those “fuck me” eyes and says she’ll see you around.

    You check in and get to your room and take out your materials and try to get down to work. But now you’re distracted by the experience you had with that woman. You decide to take a break, get a drink at the bar, and then get back to work once you’re relaxed.

    Down at the bar, another beautiful woman starts to flirt, and after a while she actually touches your junk right there in the bar (these women, mind you, are giving you what you want. It’s clear you want it b/c you’re sporting a big old boner at this point).

    So the whole weekend goes this way. Everyone from the waitress who serves you breakfast to the maid who comes in to clean your room is tempting you with sex. Sunday night rolls around and you can’t take anymore. You meet a girl down in the bar, game her the best you can, and take her back to your room and have sex. Monday morning spills some sunlight through your window and you wake up realizing that the weekend was a complete waste. Your presentation isn’t ready.

    Marketing does the same thing to us. They find the lowest common denominator (usually sex and violence) and continually rub the public’s junk, tease them a bit, make them really want it, and sell their product by association.

    Technically, we all have a choice. It’s just a matter of how much you can tolerate having your privates fondled without giving in.

  • anonymous

    Badger : “I don’t think this is factually true. I read of a study that today’s mothers and fathers both spend more time with their kids than mothers did in the 1950′s, supposedly the heydey of the SAHM. And parents used to just send their kids out the door for sports and activities, now they drive them everywhere.

    Yes, parents spent less one-on-one time hovering– pre/child-centeredness culture. BUT…. children then got to watch adults live lives as adults, not just watch adults “catering” to their every need- as their chauffeur, their teacher, their coach.

    When kids went outside to play sports there were older kids, not just same aged. The only time I remember being with kids my exact age was at school and interacting with them was limited since we didn’t work cooperatively but independently.

    Parties and gatherings were inter-generational- not just for your same aged classmates.  When we went to the movies or out to a restaurant, it wasn’t to see a Disney production or Chuckee-Cheese. Kids were invited into an adult world. Even though many parents communicated less with their kids about life topics, kids had plenty of opportunities to look up to older folks on what or what not to do, instead of having to rely so heavily on their peers.

  • Olive

    @Ramble,

    The powers that be, in these scenarios, are not foisting things on us as much as attempting to provide what we want.

    In many cases they are attempting to predict what we are likely to demand.

    It is an important distinction.

    This is the point I thought you were trying to make, but I couldn’t quite put it into words until you just did right there. Anyway.

    This reminds me of a discussion we had in a film class I took last year. Does society create art, or does art create society? (That’s the rough translation, anyway. It was a Spanish movie class, so the discussion was in Spanish). In the end, we decided that both statements are true; they are not mutually exclusive. That’s why what you’re saying is true, but what JM and I are saying is also true. We influence the media, but the media influences us as well. It brings out the lowest common denominator in all of us. For women, it would appear this is hypergamy.

    Now I have a question for you. Yesterday I was forced to watch that stupid Toddlers and Tiaras show for a horrible 30 minutes in one of my classes. Not only was I horrified by the show, I was horrified that several of the girls in my class apparently watch that show regularly (this was a gut reaction, of course. I have no room to talk, since I do watch JS after all). Anyway here’s my question: what in God’s name would prompt someone to watch a show with a bunch of MegaBitch moms forcing their three-year-olds to get spray tans and wear “flippers” (fake teeth)? I have a guess, but I wondered if you had a suggestion.

  • Olive

    @Anacaona,

    In the past kids went from childhood to marriage with learning a few skills as soon as they could or becoming apprentices in the craft they were going to spent the rest of their lives. Now kids live in teenager years a lot of time and don’t have any obligations aside from studying and a lot of disposable income. The media reflects and reinforces the status quo but is the adults that decide how much it influences their kids.

    I agree. It’s important to emphasize that the ADULTS get to decide. My parents let me watch 1/2 hour of TV a day when I was a kid, and now I still don’t really watch TV. Someone mentioned Mad Men to me in a past post and although I know that’s a TV show, that’s really the only thing I know about it.

    But I also think parents can only influence their kids so much. This goes back to the discussion b/t anonymous and Badger about the herd, and how much peers can influence children’s exposure to media. I went to a weird hippie private school as a kid, and I had friends whose parents wouldn’t let them watch TV/play video games AT ALL. But these kids still had exposure to media, they just got it through other kids at school.

    Also Edward is not sold as the ideal man he just is the ideal man for Bella (and he for her) and that is what the text says, we happen to agree with it (Team Edward forever!:p), but I don’t think is a massive plan is just cannon.

    Team Jacob! :-P Anyway, I’d say this is true for the books, not for the movies. I think you even said awhile ago that the whole Team Edward vs. Team Jacob thing was a marketing strategy to sell the movies. Seems like it worked, I know a lot of girls who saw the movies only, or saw the movies, THEN read the books.

    Anyway, as I said in my post addressed to Ramble, I think all the viewpoints here are true. We influence media by our personal tastes, media influences us by bringing out our base instincts. Sure, there are a lot of advertising failures, but probably many advertising successes. Why do you think half of the U.S. thought John Kerry deserted in Vietnam during the 2004 election? (Or something just as stupid. I forget the specifics, I was in high school).

  • Jesus Mahoney

    Blockbuster/marketing flops=poor game. But make no mistake, it really is a game. We’re gamed by Madison Ave as easily as if we were a bunch of bar sluts. And Madison Ave marketers make Roissy look like a rube.

  • SayWhaat

    What do kids do who are having a rough time of it and no one is there to listen and empathize?

    We find the Internet.

  • Olive

    @JM,

    Really good point. I’ve never thought of advertising as game, but that’s pretty much exactly what it is. Game is all about predicting the kind of behavior most likely to attract someone, and that’s precisely what marketing is.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    ( Hmm. Editor plugin is changed. This is old plugin what was earlier. That old plugin have no Visual -tab. And this was machine where Preview button did not worked on that plugin. ☹ )

    @252 Jesus Mahoney, I have difficulties to envision that scenario.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kari
      I got a lot of complaints about the plugin, so I went back to the old one with a Preview button. There is no good editor plugin with an edit button. Isn’t that ridiculous? How is this one working?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    233 Badger wrote:

    I think you are on the right track in the wrong direction, though – helicopter parenting has made young people fragile and afraid of failure, so they seek conformist groups for superficial approval.

    236 Jesus Mahoney wrote:

    I like the term “helicopter parenting.” Did you come up with that?

    I wondered what this is.
    Helicopter parent

    Helicopter parent is a colloquial, early 21st-century term for a parent who pays extremely close attention to his or her child’s or children’s experiences and problems, particularly at educational institutions. The term was originally coined by Foster W. Cline, M.D. and Jim Fay in their 1990 book Parenting with Love and Logic: Teaching Children Responsibility,[1] although Dr. Haim Ginott mentions a teen who complains, “Mother hovers over me like a helicopter…” on page 18 of the bestselling book Between Parent & Teenager published in 1969.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    261 Susan Walsh wrote:

    I got a lot of complaints about the plugin, so I went back to the old one with a Preview button.

    Yes that plugin was basically two problems.

    Visual-tab was default, so surprisingly HTML-tags was escaped.
    There was difficulty to enter text after closing tag. Only way for example add text after blockquote was first add one character on HTML-tab and it was possible to get back to Visual-tab to write non-blockquoted text.

    How is this one working?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    261 Susan Walsh wrote:

    How is this one working?

    This time Preview -button worked, but

    Hide Preview

    did not worked, so I only option wast post it.

    Apparently you also change what HTML is accepted by server, when you change plugin?

    ( I think that a morning coffee is ready. )

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    262 Kari Hurtta; there was ol-list, which Preview showed, but apparently server did not accepted it.

    Either this Preview or Visual on previous plugin did not actually told what is final result after post.

    ( Go a morning coffee. )

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @261 Susan Walsh November 28, 2011 at 9:58 am; WordPress is bundled with TinyMCE Javascript editor?