On Sunday, as I was preparing the Coq au Vin for our annual tree-trimming, Mr. HUS sauntered into the room with the New York Times magazine in his hand and a grin on his face.
“I’m a generous husband.”
“Yes, you are.”
“Yeah, but you know how I bring you coffee in bed every morning when you wake up? The Times says that is the key to a happy marriage.”
That’s a slight distortion, but his point was valid. My husband does indeed bring me coffee each day when I wake. That one small investment of his time each day – a minute or two – builds up considerable goodwill in our relationship. As I drink it, he shaves and tells me what’s new in the world, often mentioning some tidbit that he thinks I might want to use on the blog. More goodwill. I feel valued. Generally, I repay the kindness when he gets home in the evening, pouring him a glass of wine, asking about his day, careful to remember the details from ongoing workplace sagas that may require my input at a later time.
If I were to name just one thing that makes our marriage a standout, it would be this, the small gestures. It’s not the sex, it’s not the nice house, it’s not how smart or successful he is.
The Times article Is Generosity Better Than Sex?, by marriage expert Tara Parker-Pope reports a key finding about generosity from a study conducted by W. Bradford Wilcox at UVA.
Generosity was defined as “the virtue of giving good things to one’s spouse freely and abundantly” — like simply making them coffee in the morning — and researchers quizzed men and women on how often they behaved generously toward their partners. How often did they express affection? How willing were they to forgive?
The responses went right to the core of their unions. Men and women with the highest scores on the generosity scale were far more likely to report that they were “very happy” in their marriages. The benefits of generosity were particularly pronounced among couples with children. Among the parents who posted above-average scores for marital generosity, about 50 percent reported being “very happy” together. Among those with lower generosity scores, only about 14 percent claimed to be “very happy,” according to the latest “State of Our Unions” report from the National Marriage Project.
According to Wilcox, “Generosity is going above and beyond the ordinary expectations with small acts of service and making an extra effort to be affectionate. Living that spirit of generosity in a marriage does foster a virtuous cycle that leads to both spouses on average being happier in the marriage.”
The top three predictors of happy marriages among parents are:
- Sexual Intimacy
- Commitment
- Generosity
Sexual satisfaction is so important that only 7% of men and 6% of women with below-average scores described themselves as “very happy” in their marriages. But generosity plays a key role, one that is often overlooked in the contemporary SMP, setting up marriages to fail.
The quiz given in the study asks:
- How often you express affection or love
- How often you express respect or admiration
- How often you perform small acts of kindness
- How often you forgive your partner for mistakes and failings
(You can take the quiz to find out how generous you are in a relationship here.)
The other aspect of generosity I’d like to highlight is #2, expressing respect or admiration. In my experience, this is absolutely key. For example, when my husband tells me about a difficult work situation, my default position is “You are in the right.” Of course, that may turn out to be untrue, but that’s my starting point. My other assumption is, “You are very good at what you do, you command the respect of your colleagues.” I wasn’t always so good at this – I would second guess my husband because any problem at his work made me feel nervous about his role as a provider. Over time I learned that granting him respect, even admiration, no matter what, yielded better results both at home and at his work. (For the record, I also found this to be a critical lesson in parenting. Always give your child the benefit of the doubt until you learn facts that prove otherwise.)
While everyone enjoys being treated with respect by their partner, respect seems especially important to men. According to Deborah Tannen, author of You Just Don’t Understand: Women and Men in Conversation:
Men see themselves as engaged in a hierarchical social order in which they are either “one up or one down” in relation to others. Their communication styles and reactions to others’ communications often stress the need to “preserve independence and avoid failure.” Women, on the other hand, tend to see the world as a “network of connections,” and their communications and interpretations of others’ communications seek to “preserve intimacy and avoid isolation.”
Others have characterized this as “men need respect, women need love.” Obviously, that’s a simplification but male readers will concur re respect. This recent comment by Gabriel earned praise from the guys:
For men, Respect isn’t just a necessary element of the relationship – it’s a heady aphrodisiac. I’ve seen marital affairs in the workplace start with little more than a woman saying to a man, “Wow. You’re such a hard worker.” It was all over after that. Nothing left but a broken family and two open positions at the office. My guess is that this man who put in long hours and produced solid work was never praised or valued for his work at home. He probably wasn’t praised or valued for much of anything now that I think about it. Along comes a woman who he wasn’t even attracted to initially, and draws him away from a stable life with a little Respect.
In my experience, women don’t really care as much about the idea of Respect as men. It’s lower on their list of priorities. The idea of Respect is to men what the idea of Love is to women – it’s vital, valuable, elusive. A man who feels disrespected is no more likely to hang tough through a relationship than a woman who feels unloved would be. If you want to keep a good man, here are a few suggestions.
Respect him for his positive traits and victories – even if they’re small. If you expect Love from him, be prepared to deliver Respect. You’d be amazed how committed a man will become to you if you make him feel like he’s the hero.
Take an active interest in his interests, BUT NOT IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE. Trying to learn about cars to impress the hunky mechanic only works in Hollywood. What I mean is, take an interest in him as he’s doing the things he loves.
Those two things – respect and generosity – will set you apart from other women. Give them abundantly. (In fact, remember how I told you in A Drunk Man Never Lies that I would tell you how to win the guy for keeps in the next post? This is it.)
A few caveats:
- Respect must be earned. Don’t give it to anyone who doesn’t deserve it, just because you think they’re hot. You’ll just be rewarding bad behavior and it won’t get you love.
- Generosity should be unconditional, but calibrated to the circumstances. Don’t be showing up unannounced at his apartment after one date with homemade chocolate chip cookies. That screams Stage V Clinger. Don’t get more than one step ahead of anyone in the early days. A more appropriate gesture might be texting to ask how his presentation went.
- Women will get better results with men if they offer deserved respect sooner rather than later. Ditto for generosity.
- Men will get better results with women if they offer deserved respect a bit later. Ditto for generosity. Avoid the pedestal. If you make a gesture and it is not enthusiastically reciprocated, cease and desist.
- In an established relationship, the more generosity, respect and love, the better. This is what makes “very happy” campers.
- Focus on the giving, the receiving will take care of itself. If it doesn’t, you’re giving to the wrong person.
{ 611 comments… read them below or add one }
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did you use a rooster? they are hard to find but delicious if done right.
Men and women more similar than they are different! Being nice to each other is extremely important! Roissy’s long-term relationship advice absolutely terrible! News at 11!
My (happily married) parents took the quiz. My mom got a 16 and was very annoyed that she didn’t get in the best group.
For me, personally, being respected is extremely important in a relationship, possibly because (as several psychological tests have shown) I’m a highly achievement-oriented person. Forgiveness is also important to me, because I beat myself up for doing things wrong a lot. I like doing small gestures of kindness for my partners… nothing like finding an article they’d like and sending it to them, or buying them a shirt you know they’d like.
No, I didn’t have a real coq. Actually, I used a new recipe – Martha Stewart – and I was not happy with it. Back to Julia Child, never fails.
Funny thing, this reminds me of an ex, the only one I seriously considered marrying (apart from the one I did marry). I was talking about her to a friend just recently in a similar context but the coffee point hit home.
I used to go and get her a coffee every (weekend) morning from a little place very near her apt that had great coffee. I thought I was being very nice. It annoyed her. This mystified me.
Now that I look back, I suppose it was (to her) a beta display of lower value. She was significantly better looking than I was.
Julia’s is not bad. I don’t have my recipe binder handy but I can post the one from my restaurant, be warned, in restaurant recipes amounts are given by weight not volume and always metric.
I once took a pastry-making class, and the French chef stated that Americans can never be good bakers because they do not weigh their ingredients. That makes sense to me, and I use an international kitchen scale, though of course most recipes here still use volume. I’d love to see your recipe! Coq au vin is one of my most favorite winter meals.
Cosign this with the fire of a thousand suns.
One aspect not mentioned (or maybe I overlooked it): the doer is a ennobled as the giver. When I make my wife’s lunch, it is a physical manifestation of my love for her; I tell her I love her all the time, but here is a “doing” (Castaneda?). It reinforces my feelings for her. Love is a circuit. The one you love must return it, and they must see that that return,their love, matters to you, and you should look for ways to augment that, all the time. When I come home and announce (yell) “Hi Hon!” and I hear her respond (yell, usually from upstairs) “Hiiiii!!!” the lilt in her voice, her so apparent happiness in me being home, in her life-that represents what I love about her,us. I told her so, yesterday, but I’d been thinking it a long time. You need to get that kind of stuff out, then look for more. Guys tend to think the medium is the message (McLuhan); we go to work everyday because we love you, so it should be evident. Looking for ways to express it, and delving into its meaning, then expressing that, does more than simply recognize what’s there-it adds to it.
Not sure how this matters to “hookingup”, but that’s my truth.
@Susan #all of the above
I had to look up Coq au Vin (first time ever I had to google from here; first line of first sentence -(chagrin)).
Coq au Vin is a classic way to take a rooster that isn’t exciting the hens any more, cook him, and make him so that he does not have the texture of an old shoe.
American exceptionalism and the constant improvement society that propels us works to our disadvantage here. We over expect, and over want. If you find someone who loves you, respects you, “gets” you and, even when they don’t, they try to get you and, even when they fail at that they fall back on the fact that they love you-there is nothing more for us as humans. But the centrifugal force of a capitlist consumer driven culture and its concomitant narcissism depends on our loss of equilirium , a sense of incompleteness, to generate sales. Its no one’s fault, and it’s not a conspiracy; it just sells furniture. We can run out very easily of the things that hold us together by the time we find the pale replacement trinkets we exchanged for them hold no warmth it’s too late.
Oh yeah-Merry Christmas!
Great post Susan! Been thinking about this a lot lately, that a good relationship is largely based on what you have to give, not what you can get. Generosity is a huge part of the “giving” spirit.
I took the quiz and was surprised that “always” giving respect is somehow more generous. Let me try to explain. If I compare that to how much I display affection my displaying of that much respect would just become empty and annoying. If I displayed it that often I don’t think he would believe that I actually respected him, but was just blowing up his skirt.
“Take an active interest in his interests, BUT NOT IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE. Trying to learn about cars to impress the hunky mechanic only works in Hollywood. What I mean is, take an interest in him as he’s doing the things he loves.” ~OP
I largely agree with this article (it makes a lot of sense that reciprocal generosity leads to happiness and I recall writing a paper on a similar vein during high school), but I disagree with this quote in particular.
I think expressing a genuine interest in something that is a large part of the guy’s identity will earn you mad bonus points. Don’t fake it, but if you find something that is important to him that could interest you as well then go for it. Few things have made me as happy as when my current girlfriend (who wasn’t yet my girlfriend at the time) asked me to teach her to play Magic, a card game I’ve been playing for over 10 years. The biggest trekkie I know was turned on to a girl he would go on to date for a year when the two of them watched Star Trek together. Getting closer to the original quote, one of my closest female friends knows a lot about cars just because they interest her. I think that would be a large boon to her in catching any automotively minded guy she might want to date.
So while expressing an interest in him as he’s doing something important to him is great, I think being able to join in might be better because it shows him that he means enough to you for you to learn something new.
Giving is definitely awesome. I love giving massages, backrubs, etc., and I’m usually the one doing small acts of service for him. But he also does acts of service for me, like teaching me how to drive, swim and shoot. Also, when I fell down the stairs over the weekend and got some huge ouchies, he rubbed me for a good long while.
A quote from Robert Heinlein, “Love is the condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own.” Making your beloved happy should make you happy, and vice versa. This happiness spirals and bounces back and forth, making a very happy couple together.
You do not need to appreciate. like, understand etc. the OBJECT of his attention(car, football, guns yes guns); you do need to its meaning TO HIM, what he gets out of it, why. Don’t worry, he’ll tell you (maybe ad nauseum). But don’t nauseum; keep the cmaera on him.
Susan–
On problem in American marriages is that American feminism has tended to make almost everything that a man might generously do or give to a woman, the minimum all wives should expect, and even then probably not really enough.
Cooking him coq a vin and suck like on the regular I’m sure contributes to his happiness. From your occasional recipes here you’re obviously quite the cook. That’s become quite rare in American middle and esp. upper middle class wives it seems. Particularly among say gen Xers.
I would first like state and ask: isn’t this a good attitude for relationships at all stages? From first approach, to escalation as well as in an actual established relationships?
“generosity plays a key role, one that is often overlooked in the contemporary SMP, setting up marriages to fail.”
Like I said above: I think generosity plays a key role in all aspects of romantic relationships from that first minute you’ve met someone to your shared golden years.
Second: news at 11 – people like to be cared about and treated well rather than judged and used and men are people too. I’m slightly surprised we needed a blog post about this…
Awesome, Ozy!
Good article, though this “Men will get better results with women if they offer deserved respect a bit later. Ditto for generosity” jived badly for me. Sounds like the whole “make them wait for it” Roissy crap.
Unless it’s one of those “don’t pour too much attention/affection on women too soon” thing, but I don’t see giving deserved respect exactly when it’s earned as pedestalizing.
Yes, it’s building something greater than the sum of its parts. It’s a sort of feeding back and forth, getting better and better. I think if my husband ignored me when he came home I would feel terribly rejected. There are nights when we do different things – one of us reads, one watches TV, one gets on the laptop and checks the blog…but even there we are connecting in small ways.
Of course, here is nothing new – it’s The Gift of the Magi writ large.
He could have avoided the stew pot with Rooster Game.
Questions: Are there certain words one should avoid to keep the moderation software happy?
or
Do I get sent there often because I don’t post often?
or
It just is and I should shut up about it?
@College Ted
I think I agree with you, but I guess it’s for a man to say. My husband is a baseball nut, so back in the days when we could still afford to go to a Red Sox game, I asked him to help me learn to score a game, and I asked him lots of questions about rules, etc. He loved sharing that knowledge, I think men like being in the role of teacher, which is a form of leadership.
The movie Fever Pitch portrays this very well, speaking of the Red Sox.
I’ve written about female narcissism and entitlement, so I’ll agree, but there really is a disconnect re chores. I just saw another article saying that women do most of the household chores even when they work full time. They also tend to the children more. This is what feminism demanded – women “having it all.” Well, the women I know from my generation hate having it all. Nearly all the full-time working moms would have loved to work part-time. I think we’re telling our daughters not to make the same mistakes. It’s just too damned stressful. Of course, if you’re not UMC you probably don’t have a choice.
When Kate Bolick came to dinner, she asked the girls whether career or family was their top priority. All five said family. That really surprised me – 30 years ago we all would have said career. This is one area where the pendulum is already swinging back.
Wonderful advice. Generosity has become an status symbol IMO. Many people are that praise a volunteering work, would call a loving partner a pushover with no qualms for doing the same and not having a quick list of things the other person does. That is another thing that is wrong with this culture IMO.
I love your coffee story hubby and I also talk in the mornings I’m the one that bring him coffee to bed because he is not a morning person and he is not really awake till he gets his first cup. But when I’m really tired he gets up first feed the cat and gives me coffee so it something we both do for the other, our little routine that hopefully we can always keep. I also always try to praise him when he does little things for me and try to tell him how good he is in his job specially when he is having a bad day. Had I mentioned that I love being married to my husband? I do.
@Susan #20
Sure, you’ve been together long enough you can riff in that manner. But in a LTR (acronym!) (mine’s 33 1/3) there are little, almost impercetible signifying things you do, gestures, even sighs that let the other know your presence registers, I am aware of you, we occupy this together. How can you tell people on a date, even people my age? They have to stay actively engage, they cannot rest in silence. A young couple would be in serious trouble if they acted like (my) Susan and me. As for your being ignored, I knwo when she’s preoccupied by something, and I don’t feel slighted. As Churchill said “even a dog knows when it’s been stepped on and when it’s been kicked”.
@Valentin
Yes, but I do think it can be problematic for men. One of the worst things women can perceive about a guy is that he is “eager.” Eager is truly the kiss of death to the tingle. So guys must be careful about being too generous and affectionate before the woman feels she has earned it. It’s different with guys – you all seem to express that you love it when a woman is eager for you – and only you. So a woman should pursue a strategy of making her interest clear early.
Well, I’m surprised at how little common sense prevails in the SMP. Consider this – UVA spends the big bucks to study this stuff for the National Marriage Project. That project is the best research on marriage in America today – and it turns out that people who are unhappily married tend to take one another for granted and focus on their own needs. It’s not surprising that’s a fail – what is surprising is that people retreat to that, throw in the towel, lose the sexual intimacy, and then either divorce or live together like zombies. Growing up, most of my friends’ parents were like that.
@Jennifer
You’re right, of course. That was badly expressed on my part. I was thinking about respect mixed with admiration – as Gabriel said, respect is like an aphrodisiac for guys. I don’t think women look for that. When we say we demand respect, we usually mean either that the man is honoring our sexual boundaries, or that he is reliable and doesn’t flake. Obviously, women should expect both of those from the outset, and men should give it. But I think most women would hold it against a guy if he begged to accompany us shopping, or asked us to teach him to knit.
@Stingray
The spam filter is bipolar as far as I can tell. Unpredictable from day to day. I try to keep an eye on it. Sorry for the delay. I’ll Whitelist you, which should help, but doesn’t always work.
@Anacaona
You and Hope are testimonials to how wonderful a wife can be. I’m sure that every guy reading here hopes to find a wife like you, if he doesn’t have one already. There are other very happily married women here too, but you two share the most detail. Such love and loyalty! It’s really a joy to witness.
I should mention that our morning routine only really got established after the years when we were getting kids off to school. It’s an empty nester development. When we were under more stress, we were both less generous to be honest. I wrote this post with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
Susan,
Thanks. I appreciate the Whitelist and understand about the moderation. Not a big deal at all but I just wanted to make sure it wasn’t something I was doing with my word choices!
I admit that I could be reading this wrong but it seams to me that the marriages where sexual satisfaction is high would most likely be ones where generosity is high as well. I would tend to think that these two things go hand in hand in “very happy” marriages.
Good advice here. I think I’ll send it to some women I know.
(Wait, I’d prefer not being threatened with sharp objects this week. Better not.)
Escoffier’s earlier point about Respect/DLV deserves more callout, methinks. If you’re doing something small, being considerate – generosity because you can – it still gets you walked on. Either it’s not enough of a gesture or it’s just not valued by the woman. That’s very, very sad.
Even if you “have a lot to give” proverbially speaking, we men are apprehensive about actually giving it now.
I think this is that depressing part about Game that’s sinking in.
Yep, it is.
No problem Susan, thanks for clarifying! I agree totally with your amended statement.
“But I think most women would hold it against a guy if he begged to accompany us shopping, or asked us to teach him to knit.”
I think I’d just be really, really scared.
“I think this is that depressing part about Game that’s sinking in”
No, it’s the depressing part about fallen man, especially in our me-culture now, that’s sinking in.
Thank you Susan. Hopefully the talking doesn’t come across as bragging. I think it’s a good to get the message out there, to treat your man better and make him happy.
I do make it a point to tell my husband he doesn’t have to do stuff for me besides love me and give me attention (in and out of bedroom). I think it is probably better for the man to do fewer acts of service than the woman.
I totally agree with the thought that generosity is essential to the overall happiness of a couple. When I care about a man, I want to do things for him. I don’t do those things with the sole intent of potential future reciprocity. I do them because I cannot help but to manifest my feelings in tangible actions. I like cooking for a guy I care about, giving massages, listening and talking with him about his day, and a multitude of other things.
This post reminded me of one of the times in my last most recent relationship where I didn’t feel appreciated for my generosity. I decided to go all out one day and cook spinach lasagna, light candles, dim the lights, play soft music, the whole shebang. I was expecting him to be really happy when he got home from work about the setup, but he wasn’t. Instead, he complained about the music, freaked out about the small pile of dishes in the sink (he had OCD), and he only ate one slice of the lasagna and never touched it again. It sat in the fridge untouched for a week, so I finally decided to eat the rest of it over the next several days so that it wouldn’t go to waste. You can’t blame a girl for trying at least.
I got an 11 in that test. Sounds about right.
Don’t give too much away, it robs you of something to give when it’s deserved.
Susan’s gone all Anacaona on us!
Why be apprehensive about giving? What’s the worst thing that could happen–someone doesn’t appreciate it? Small price to pay on the path toward someone who will.
Susan #31
Everyone gets a pass when you’re raising kids. You didn’t go insane, you’re still together.
A woman (or a man)appreciating the gesture pays a long way. A man wants to feel appreciated and trusted.
Hm. Interesting. Were you going out of your way for the coffee or were you picking her up a cup while there for yourself as well?
The hardest part about generosity, maybe, is not expecting some sort of recognition or appreciation in return, especially a particular type of appreciation that you’ve idealized in your mind.
About a month or 2 ago, I knew my BF was coming home from school to work over the weekend, so I cleaned his room and washed his work clothes (the room was really messy before). He barely said anything about it, maybe a simple “well thanks” and I had to check myself to not be annoyed. In that case, it was important to remember the purpose for the generosity. It wasn’t so I could get something out of my BF, whether praise or a free dinner or something. It was for him, not for me. It’s hard to maintain that mindset, I’m not sure why. Maybe because we’ve been trained to expect rewards from our “hard work.”
I dunno, I like it when my partners take an interest in stuff I’m interested in: music, feminism, fantasy novels (I’m a total fantasy novel hipster). I like sharing things I love with people I love; I don’t think that’s uncommon for women OR men.
Also, I am fairly certain that admiration, reliability and respecting boundaries are also good traits for both genders. (Never date people who are more unreliable than you or don’t respect your boundaries. It’s just asking for trouble.)
I like Susan’s advice for women to their spouse/significant other.
The advice in the comments for men in relationships seems to be a misapplied golden rule or a shit-test (subconsiously weediing out men who don’t understand women):
1. Sexual intimacy is more important than commitment or generosity (see, study).
2. Too much generosity is a tingle killer under my understanding of both Roissy and Susan.
3. Roissy recommends selfishness/dread/ritual-cannibalism to enhance attraction.
4. Susan et. al diss Roissy while lauding tingle-killing activities.
5. Susan is already attracted to her husband so he can afford to worry about priority 3.
6. Marriage is one gigantic tingle-killer already and men have been taught by society to double-down on beta comfort-building exercises like generosity.
7. Prioritize Roissy’s relationship advice on attraction over any advice on generosity, unless both a. your wife/girlfriend is threatening to leave you since you are, and I quote, “a selfish asshole” and b. all her friends hope she does so they can get a shot at you. Both.
I was plenty generous and committed before I ever saw a PUA blog. Roissy’s advice on attraction upped the “sexual intimacy” in my marriage. You know, priority 1. I imagine any cads reading this will up their use of little generous gestures (as Roissy advocates!) since they will not offer any commitment. What man is it going to helped by “be more beta” advice?
This seems
@Olive
I don’t know – that’s more than a small gesture. Cleaning up a really messy room is serious work. I think it’s normal to expect some expression of appreciation. Then again, maybe he felt it was presumptuous? Invading his space? A woman once told me that she did some serious cleaning of her mother’s house while she was in the hospital, threw out all sorts of useless crap. When her mother came home, she was furious – and devastated. People get attached to their junk, or just a sense of comfort from the mess, I guess.
Susan,
Good point, didn’t think about it that way. Highly possible he wasn’t all that excited about the gesture. It’s also possible (and probably likely) that he thanked me in a way he thought was appropriate (I think maybe I got a hug, but see here’s the thing, I tend to write off appreciation if it’s not what I was hoping for, which is bad) and I was expecting “You’re so wonderful/best person ever/let me pick you up and take you to the bedroom” lol. I’ve always had the bad habit of idealizing how people will respond and then getting mad when they don’t do what I wanted them to do. My dad does that to my mom, I think I get it from him. Something to work on.
That’s just brilliant, Orig. Roissy spoils some fo the best parts of men in the name of sex; it’s like watching Screwtape.
@Olive
I can’t speak for your BF of course. But I’m very protective of my personal space. If my girlfriend had cleaned my room while I wasn’t there, my first reaction would be unwelcome violation.
I’m with Susan. This was a case of ‘invading space’ and he went with his immediate reaction. On the bright side, now you know where to be stingy!
The most important thing is the most important thing. If your spouse is attracted to you focus some attention on 2 and 3. Never totally ignore 2 and 3. But, sexual intimacy is the most important thing, so if there is lack of attraction focus almost fully on that. If your lack of relationship comfort can be addressed by generosity or commitment and is limiting your sexual intimacy, focus on that. Don’t up your game where you are already competent, focus on your weakness. This applies equally to men and women.
Not being beta enough is not the typical male problem, but your mileage may vary. I doubt that more foot rubs for your man will be as productive as watching your diet and regular trips to the gym for most ladies. If you are the exception, then be exceptional.
@Jesus Mahoney
No, the worst thing that could happen is a woman taking advantage of your generosity and bleeding your wallet. Rapidly becomes expensive, even if you curb yourself.
We’re talking about women respecting men, and men feeling generous and appreciated by this respect. It IS a fairly equitable exchange. But feigning respect in anticipation of further generosity is not so hard to pull off…at least for a while.
Aww… I really like this post. So full of warm fuzzies!
I think guys who are worried about seeming too “Beta” should just remember Susan’s first point:
* ” Respect must be earned. Don’t give it to anyone who doesn’t deserve it, just because you think they’re hot. You’ll just be rewarding bad behavior and it won’t get you love.”
I like it when my boyfriend does random nice things for me, but I also do stuff for him as well so it all balances out. I think it only becomes a “pedestal” issue when you’re constantly going out of your way for somebody who isn’t reciprocating.
Jennifer:
“That’s just brilliant, Orig. Roissy spoils some fo the best parts of men in the name of sex; it’s like watching Screwtape.”
Roissy didn’t create women. Neither did Satan so I don’t see the relevance of Screwtape. You think men are little demons in training?
Beta behaviors are what women want from a man they are already attracted to. If a woman is not attracted, they are repelled by or contemptuous of the man offerring commitment/favors/etc. Do you deny this?
Men want respect and sex from women they are attracted to. Do you deny this?
Sexual intimacy is #1 in the study for men and women. Don’t jeopardize that.
Yikes, you’re jaded.
Bleeding your wallet? You don’t have to spend much money to be generous. Giving should be about giving love… giving of yourself. You can give lots without spending a dime. Mr. HUS isn’t shelling out any extra change by bringing Sue a cup of coffee in the morning. He’s probably brewing a pot so he can have some for himself anyway. It’s the thought. You can serve coffee in bed, give a massage, bring her home a big beautiful pine cone you found while out on a walk, write a poem for her after making love for the first time, or suggest a ride to the beach at night so you can gaze at the stars and watch the deer grazing in the dunes because you know she likes that.
That said, nobody can really “bleed your wallet dry.” If you choose to give, it’s on you.
@Ozy
Cosign. Sex differences don’t apply to character traits, or shouldn’t.
Yes. It also becomes a pedestal issue if you’re sacrificing too much of yourself in order to accommodate your girlfriend or boyfriend. You should still value yourself and the things you’ve developed in your own life.
@Orig. Anon
Effective only in the short-term. Devastating loss of intimacy and trust in the long-term.
Which activities are you referring to?
Agreed. Generosity in a marriage cannot work miracles if sexual attraction is absent.
Disagree. If I hadn’t married my husband, I would have walked away. Nothing more fatal to the tingle than that.
Examining Roissy’s relationship history might be advisable here. He’s advocated cheating and deceit in all LTRs, and he’s never had one last more than a year or so. Be careful what you wish for.
I do not think this post is beta advice. I think it is about how to love another human being. If Roissy knows what that is, he hasn’t written about it.
I am slightly amused by the reaction of a guy who takes the advice of peer-reviewed scientific research with a sound methodology, and the advice of an anonymous pick-up blogger, and decides that the anonymous pick-up blogger is clearly the most credible source.
That said, I wouldn’t say that roissy’s tactics don’t work, for a given definition of work. They’re classic emotional abuse, from the gaslighting to the breaking down of self-esteem.
Off topic, but I found this amusing:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tradition.png
HAHA this is hilarious! You thought a clean room would give him a boner…
Susan:
Roissy knows little to nothing on love. Betas know too little on how to love without looking like a weak, unattractive schlub. You love betas, so throw em a bone.
Does frequency of sex go up or down after 2 years of marriage, no matter the age of the couple? Tingle killer it is, even if it is required.
Ozy
Again,
“The top three predictors of happy marriages among parents are:
1.Sexual Intimacy
2.Commitment
3.Generosity
Sexual satisfaction is so important that only 7% of men and 6% of women with below-average scores described themselves as “very happy” in their marriages.”
Who cares about anything else if sexual satisfaction isn’t high? I don’t see what you have told me about sexual satisfaction? A hot cup o joe makes you hot for joe? If it doesn’t, joe should find something else to do. Daily connections help feelings of intimacy; good.
You’ve made it clear before how you love the coq.
“I don’t know – that’s more than a small gesture. Cleaning up a really messy room is serious work. I think it’s normal to expect some expression of appreciation. Then again, maybe he felt it was presumptuous? Invading his space? A woman once told me that she did some serious cleaning of her mother’s house while she was in the hospital, threw out all sorts of useless crap. When her mother came home, she was furious – and devastated. People get attached to their junk, or just a sense of comfort from the mess, I guess.”
Hoarding is one thing that needs to be taken care of, but there is a class of people who lack basic respect for other people’s preferences wrt how things are physically arranged. In this sense they are narcissistic. I have a file organizer in my entryway. My previous girlfriend spontaneously reorganized this one night while I was making dinner. I wouldn’t say I was livid, but I was definitely pissed off – as she had completely destroyed my task management system (inbox, to-do box, to be mailed, etc), the setup by which I keep my bills paid and my life organized.
I’m sure she saw that as helping, but what she communicated to me was “I know better than you how you should organize your life” and it was a big turn-off.
There’s also a factor that when a woman starts cleaning a man’s space as if it was her own, she may be mentally husbanding him and pre-committing the arrangement to a level he may not be comfortable with. And as we’re discussing now, naturally expects a reciprocation for something he didn’t necessarily ask nor want her to do. You just gotta know how to be generous. Use the Platinum Rule.
“No, I didn’t have a real coq.”
Coq envy rides again.
@Ozy
So good to see you, you’re batting 1000 today.
Seriously. It doesn’t get any more prestigious than the UVA National Marriage Project. People may say “so what, that’s common sense” but the truth is it’s absent in many marriages. Any man who seeks to improve his marriage by following Roissy’s advice is a fool.
@Orig. Anon.
That’s a complicated question. First, limerence lasts a couple of years. Sex may decrease after that. In my case, sex decreased when I had a kid, nearly five years after we got together. Which brings me to the second point. Oxytocin drives down sex drive for both partners with the birth of a child. So that’s totally normal, and people shouldn’t freak out about it.
Had to google the Platinum Rule. Nice little rule to know.
To give context to my situation, it’s not really a room, it’s more of a basement living area where we sleep/I keep all my crap (and where I will no longer have my crap once I move out in a week…. so excited, living with your SO’s mom is not advisable, kids). Half the mess was mine, and usually I’m pretty messy. Thought it’d be nice not to come home to a mess for once. Though I see how it was more of me fulfilling an expectation, not really generosity. Oh well. Hopefully next time I’ll do something legitimately generous. :-/
@Olive
Sorry, didn’t mean to offend. I have a funny story about cleaning. When my husband and I moved to Boston, I was about 4 months pregnant. I was still wearing my regular jeans, but they were sort of unbuttoned and I looked porky. On the weekend we moved into our condo, we went to the local hardware store for supplies. As we were leaving, I was carrying a mop and bucket, jeans popping, and who should we run into but my husband’s ex. The ex who dumped him because she needed to “explore her sexual identity.” I was truly mortified, as she stood there, all edgy and lesbo looking, in her leather bomber jacket and her spiky hair.
Thanks for the compliments Susan Half the reason I can afford being nice and generous is that I married a nice and generous guy.
I think marrying a good person is half the battle.
Not level of loyalty is appreciated by people that believe that they are entitled to it because they are OH GOD SO AWESOME!
I read once that another important thing is to be thankful for your spouse I’m sure you and Mr HUS are thankful of having found each other as my hubby and I are of finding each other and the way things look we are going to be thankful for the rest of eternity. Sadly for the single crowd of course, that still need to find their “thankful to had found them” type.
@Olive
). So careful with that, paying attention of how people react to your “acts of kindness” is an important part of relationship calibration. Read the Languages of love too for references.
Cleaning someone’s room can be seen as a nice touch, but can be seen as a critique “She cleaned the room as a way to point out that I’m a mess” depending on many things. I had to get over that feeling with my very nice husband doing the dishes once in a while because that was what my mother used to do, “do the cleaning because mine was not good enough” (Had I mentioned that I hate cleaning with a fire of two thousand suns?)
I do clean as much as I can and hubby knew before we married that I was a shitty house keeper (but a dedicated wonderful cook I love cooking
Also your boyfriend could be slow or low appreciation type. Most men don’t go all “OMG you are the best woman on the face of earth!” once you do something nice for them. But they will have it in mind in their general behaviour. I remember cooking some pork chops for my hubby (and you know I hate pork but hubby loves so I cook it for him as much as I can which his mother finds very remarkable of me BTW) and he ate them in silence and barely say thanks that nigh. But then that all that week he called me to pick me up at some errands I had to do (I take the bus) because it was rainy and windy and he knew my throat had been bothering me and drove a whole hour just to get me to home and he is always making sure I’m warm and safe during winter because he knows I hate the cold, so in a few words do I feel he is generous to me? YES! do I have a notebook keeping track to make sure he is doing tit for tat? NO.
I do believe the whole “egalitarian” thing does more harm than good instead of focusing in the idea that you have a good man with you so chances are he is not trying to cheat you our of having a fair relationship they focus on the things the woman wants to do get done RIGHT NOW! and not in the average of the situation.
Don’t make that mistake.
If your man is bad for you it will come out clearly out of many things, nitpicking usually ends up being a problem. Like someone said don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, YMMV.
I visited the Smithsonian history museum last time I was in Washington DC. They have Julia Child’s kitchen reconstructed; it’s adjacent to the birth control exhibit. I wonder if the message is, have fewer children and you can have time to make great pies?
This reads more like a Cosmo article then a post with serious advice
Walsh rides the carousel in her prime, instead of rewarding her husband for overlooking her carousel riding days, by bringing him coffee everyday …
Instead she lets him bring her coffee everyday as a reward for her carousel riding … & then labels his beta behaviour as …. generosity ….
The hamster hits a new low …
A player on love:
http://dangerandplay.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/the-true-test-of-alpha/
“The modern “game” thinking on love is beta. If you listen to most men who claim to run game, you’ll hear them say, “All women are fungible. If you elevate one woman above all others, you’re beta.” Those guys have clearly never been in love.
More than most, I am an advocate of love. I hope everyone reading this falls deeply in love. I have been in love twice.
Psychotic, possessive, scary love. Drug love where you feel high when you’re with your girl, and feel low when she’s away. Gay love where you hug the pillow she slept on last night. Patronly love where you want her to call you when her flight lands, and insist on having her tell you when she made it home safely.”
Sex and Julia Child? The all-things-related-to-pie wing of the Smithsonian.
@Badger
Hmmm, interesting question. Since Julia lost her virginity at 40, I’m assuming children were never part of the plan. But no question, children will have you shifting from coq au vin to chicken fingers in no time.
Beware the manosphere, for it can impart Xcess bitterness and cynicism, rendering you unsuitable for any interaction with a person of the opposite sex.
Badger’s poetic description of love is amazing. Swoon.
Badger,
That player you linked to seems a bit like a douche bag, but I like the message about love anyway. Love’s awesome. Nothing compares to it. Though I think he meant to say “patriarchal” instead of “patronly.” Patron love sounds like the love a john would have for a hooker.
Can someone clarify what manosphere is?
The manosphere is a network of blogs by men, for men.
Susan,
No worries, wasn’t offended! Also your cleaning story makes me giggle. Only because the spiky hair “I need to explore my sexuality” ex clearly has nothing on you.
My mom has some really funny stories about running into my dad’s ex. A few years ago she got some mailing from some sort of non-profit insurance company (she runs a non-profit) and there in the staff pictures was my dad’s ex, looking all done up and wealthy. She kept making comments about how rich this woman probably is. My dad was like “throw that thing away.” I guess women still have their little insecurities after 25+ years of marriage. Anyway, sorry for that really OT story.
Anacaona,
A precious story.
Thanks for your advice, always appreciated and worthwhile to read!
Awww, you all don’t like edgy, lesbo-looking people in bomber jackets and spiky hair, who want to explore their sexuality?
*puts away combat boots sadly*
lol the usual cliche’s … bitter etc… at least I dont bring coffee to a carousel rider every morning …
GL with the love thing, your addiction to oxcytocin & hormonal stupidity works wonders with women …
“I used to go and get her a coffee every (weekend) morning from a little place very near her apt that had great coffee. I thought I was being very nice. It annoyed her. This mystified me.
Now that I look back, I suppose it was (to her) a beta display of lower value. She was significantly better looking than I was.”
There’s a simpler possibility – it could have simply been she didn’t fancy the idea of you getting her coffee for whatever reason, and so you doing it repeatedly was just something that illustrated a lack of communication. Kind of like giving someone a present they don’t really want – one time they’ll smile and thank you, but after a while it grates on them that you keep doing this thing they don’t care for.
It’s really important that we don’t project our own ideas of what someone else “should” want (or that we want to think ourselves as giving to them) over their real wants. This is a classic a-ha moment for beta guys, when they realize that instead of the barrage of “nice” that a lot of women want you to be kind of a jerk every now and then, and that acting the jerk is actually being “nice” in that it’s giving them what they really want.
Maybe but I doubt it. She loved the coffee from that place and she was a total coffee addict.
No Orig, I’m saying Roissy is like Screwtape. I suggest you carefully heed what Susan’s said in regards to him.
@Orig.Anon. #55
A second reference to C.S. Lewis’ book-could it be related to the “Wormwood” bomb on Dexter?
@Susan #62
“Boner”? Haven’t heard it called that since Moses had one.
“He loved sharing that knowledge, I think men like being in the role of teacher, which is a form of leadership.”
So a bit of “Girl Game” I’ve picked up on is asking questions. Not questions of the “so what do you do?” variety, but more questions along the lines of “how does that make you feel?” I’ve gone on a couple dates with this guy who is training to be an opera singer, and I just asked him a ton of questions about opera, what got him started on that path, how often does he go, what’s the difference between this and that, etc. Demonstrating interest goes a long way.
Escoffier: There’s lots of reasons she could have not wanted it that have nothing to do with her desire for the coffee. Maybe she felt uncomfortable receiving gifts; maybe she felt like you were expecting something from her in return; maybe she felt bad that she wasn’t able to give you anything back; maybe she felt like, by giving her favors, you were pushing the relationship to an emotional level she didn’t feel comfortable at; hell, maybe she thought it made you look weak and she prefers a totally dominant man. I don’t know why she didn’t like it– that’s the kind of question you should have asked her.
As the friendly neighborhood sex-pozzie, I recommend communication to everyone! Open and honest communication makes relationships much better!
I admit that I have often been uncomfortable trying to acknowledge the sweetness and generosity of someone’s gift/favor/whatever while simultaneously making it clear that they really shouldn’t, say, buy me jewelry…
Susan: I always end up taking out the trash and doing the dishes for my partners, because apparently they are completely incapable of seeing mess (although, to their credit, they usually help once I start). Thank you for reminding me that being generous is part of what makes a relationship functional, and that getting bitter and resentful about it will just poison my relationships.
“So a bit of “Girl Game” I’ve picked up on is asking questions. Not questions of the “so what do you do?” variety, but more questions along the lines of “how does that make you feel?” I’ve gone on a couple dates with this guy who is training to be an opera singer, and I just asked him a ton of questions about opera, what got him started on that path, how often does he go, what’s the difference between this and that, etc. Demonstrating interest goes a long way.”
Mmm hmm. One of the most effective parts of (guy) game I’ve learned is how to connect emotionally by asking the right questions, probing in a way that emotionally activates another person (woman’s) emotional center. People generally like to talk about themselves and stuff they are passionate about, so giving them a platform for that means they associate you with good feelings. Feminists bitch that this is “playing dumb;” it’s just being interested in someone else’s passion.
And I think this is a thing that’s hard for guys to hone in their game, because we’re taught (and it IS important) to not demonstrate too much interest or be too eager.
My mother is spectacularly bad at this, asking us detailed questions about uncomfortable stuff we don’t want to talk about.
“My mother is spectacularly bad at this, asking us detailed questions about uncomfortable stuff we don’t want to talk about.”
This might just be something Mothers do.
Ozymandias: I always end up taking out the trash and doing the dishes for my partners, because apparently they are completely incapable of seeing mess (although, to their credit, they usually help once I start).
Ozy, you are such a sweetheart but I hope people do not take advantage of you. A lot times people will just pretend not to to notice a chore so that someone else will do it.
“This might just be something Mothers do.”
I’m convinced that future studies will reveal that as soon as their kids reach puberty parents activate the “embarrassing genes” to screw them and their dates. Is too much of an universal phenomenon to be just coincidence, IMO.
GudEnuf: Eh. I tested this and they let the trash build up for like a month, at which point I decided that I would prefer to have an unfair chore distribution than the Leaning Tower of Trash-Pisa.
Besides, I keep eating their food and stealing their books and wandering in their rooms at midnight to demand cuddles, so it all works out.
@Susan… Significant Other prefers the Chicago cousin of Coq Au Vin… Chicken Vesuvio.
If you are interested let me know and I will share the secret recipe ~JS
“On problem in American marriages is that American feminism has tended to make almost everything that a man might generously do or give to a woman, the minimum all wives should expect, and even then probably not really enough.
Cooking him coq a vin and suck like on the regular I’m sure contributes to his happiness. From your occasional recipes here you’re obviously quite the cook. That’s become quite rare in American middle and esp. upper middle class wives it seems. Particularly among say gen Xers.”
@Doug1…
Proud Gen X chiming in.
I think the real problem with American relationships and marriage is narcissistic entitlement on both sides of the fence… and this in my opinion is not a result of feminism but allowing our culture to become one where we value what we can buy over what we can make.
But that’s a tangent for another time.
Real talk… on this very blog men have chimed in to marginalize a woman considering cooking and other domestic duties as something that she brings to the table in a relationship as laughable or of little or no consequence.
I was personally dinged for saying that while I wouldn’t pay for dinner, I would prepare meals for a man in my home or bake him something in appreciation for a nice date. While there were those gentlemen who said that they would love to have that type of treatment, there was a vocal group who felt that it wasn’t enough.
So you can’t assume that a man is going to be appreciative and reciprocate quality cooking and sucking, and not just consider those acts of love things to which he is entitled just because he walks the planet.
You have to give to get on both sides… all good relationships are based on reciprocity.
It is the people who walk around with their fist clenched to protect what they are holding who don’t realize that you have to let go to make room for new gifts and have an open hand to receive what you are being given. ~JS
“Beware the manosphere, for it can impart Xcess bitterness and cynicism, rendering you unsuitable for any interaction with a person of the opposite sex.”
@Susan…
I finally get it… for a moment I thought I was on glue and hadn’t read your post with comprehension
These guys are the male equivalent of bitter chicks who cuss guys out for holding doors open or think a man picking up the tab for dinner is akin to prostitution.
Very amusing ~JS
“It’s really important that we don’t project our own ideas of what someone else “should” want (or that we want to think ourselves as giving to them) over their real wants. This is a classic a-ha moment for beta guys, when they realize that instead of the barrage of “nice” that a lot of women want you to be kind of a jerk every now and then, and that acting the jerk is actually being “nice” in that it’s giving them what they really want.”
@Badger…
I have done this myself. I was dating a meat and potatoes guy and the first night I had him over I made pork loin and lyonnaise potatoes. While I considered this a very simple meat and potatoes meal it was way too fancy for him.
Meat = Beef and Potatoes – anything but ketchup… so even though in my mind it was a lovely meal to him it was a fail.
I do think however that a reoccurring gesture needs a bit of guidance if it isn’t hitting the sweet spot. So after the second cup of coffee, she should have first acknowledged the gesture for the thoughtful act that it was and offered suggestions that would make it more enjoyable for her if he was missing the mark…
i.e… the coffee from starbucks is good but the caribou around the corner makes a chi soy latte to die for…
“Maybe but I doubt it. She loved the coffee from that place and she was a total coffee addict.”
@Escoffer… well then never mind and good riddance to her… Badger’s advice is still sound though.
And maybe I should rethink my blog reading and commenting strategy ~JS
“maybe she felt like, by giving her favors, you were pushing the relationship to an emotional level she didn’t feel comfortable at; hell, maybe she thought it made you look weak and she prefers a totally dominant man.”
I think it was one or both of these. No way to know now, though. This was a long time ago.
Julia Child, IIRC, wanted children but couldn’t have any.
I agree with this post very much.
Though I couldn’t help but laugh at the thought that the Times was… well behind the times.
Humanity’s known about the love/respect thing for over 2000 years.
From the bible:
Ephesians chapter 5
Or in Colossians chapter 3
Submit = show respect.
And this does explain a lot of relationship difficulties. Men want respect so they treat a woman the way the man would want to be treated: respecting her. Women want love so they treat a man the way the woman would want to be treated: loving him. And both end up finding themselves a little dissatisfied with the relationship (for men do want some love and women do want some respect).
(Sometimes I think that today’s “science” is just rediscovering what our great-grandparents knew already.)
Appreciate this. Beats having the only thing your mother asks when you visit is whether you’d to go up to the liquor store to pick her up a bottle of Chivas.
Agreed. I just spent some time going through his archives and I was torn. Some are incredibly douchey and some are quite good. He’s definitely in the player camp, though.
Badger, were you aware that someone has started a blog called The Badger Hunt?
@Ozy
Ha, she intimidated the hell out of me! I couldn’t offer such a rich and nuanced form of sexual identity.
I have a pair of vintage Doc Maarten boots size 7. Way too old to pull it off any longer. Do you want them?
@Xcess
“It’s like you’re dreamin’ about Gorgonzola cheese when it’s clearly Brie time, baby.”
I’ve been guilty of this at times, as you can imagine. My kids generally respond with “It’s none of your business.”
@Jhane Sez
Chicken Vesuvio! I’ve never heard of it, but if it’s better than Coq au Vin I need to try it!
+1
OMG when Doug1 said:
I thought suck was a typo. I thought he meant to say such.
Haha even if it’s a typo, it’s not bad advice. ;P
Yea. The overall message of the post Badger linked to was good. Love’s awesome. Loving someone doesn’t make you weak. The test of your character strength is HOW you love when in a relationship.
Of course, smacking the woman you love when she gives you back-talk or demanding that she obey you doesn’t seem like a display of strength, but of weakness.
Christmas Questions from Uncle Tom
Actually, more like Nativity ones. Did Joseph know lamaze? Can you picture him going “hee hee hoo hoo” to Mary? Did he need to? Or did the infant Jesus miracle away her contractions and pain? And, if not, when she was in a particularly intense spasm and yelled “Christ!” did she have to apologize to Him? I suppose she could’ve yelled “God!”-she was carrying His Baby, so I suppose They were on a First Name basis.
Did Jesus as a Jewish boy get circumcised, or did He come without foreskin? Where did they get a mohl on short notice in Bethlehem? When Jesus was resurrected on Easter Sunday, did the foreskin come alive too?
Jesus was born on December 25th. As the Son of God, did that mean Joseph could not claim a deduction for him on his taxes for that year?
Seasons Greetings!
And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luke 2:21
This is one thing about the PUA’s that I have always found interesting. I have very often seen them write that to marry automatically shows beta weakness and I have no doubt that for some men it can, depending on how they carry themselves up to and after the wedding. However, I think falling in love and marrying (I know that marriage 2.0 is different with all the legal crap going on. Let’s just forget that for a moment and just go with the love thing) takes a great deal of courage and is a big part of what defines a man. If he maintains himself, as a man, yet allows himself to love and trust another, this is a truly courageous act. It does not display weakness, but should be considered great strength. And this strength can either continue or abate depending on how the man continues in his marriage and in his relationship with his wife. Obviously, some of this will depend on whether or not he made a good choice in a wife and if he can command her respect.
Holy crap. Lamaze is a waste of time. Any woman who can actually control her breathing during the pain of child birth is a beast. Just trying to breath at all is difficult let alone breathing any certain way.
Lamaze is a waste of time.
I thought it was understood, that the purpose of Lamaze practice is to give the imminent father something to do to feel he’s being useful, rather than simply biting his nails for ten hours.
One of the things that I have noticed trolling through some of the really old Roissy posts is that he is, or claims to be, very “pro-love.” Kind of hard to square with the rest of what he writes.
Now, this makes more sense. Thank God for my husband because he told the nurses to shut the hell up when they tried to correct my breathing. He was so useful in that regard. I needed to be left the hell alone and he made sure I was. I am not sure I would have come out of childbirth a sane woman without him there to do that for me. He ran interference for me through each birth. He. Was. Awesome.
Susan Walsh–
Yeah it’s normal for women’s sex DRIVE to go down for some time after the birth of a child, especially if/while she’s nursing. However it used to be the wisdom of many American and Anglosphere women that good wives let their husbands have sex with them during these low drive times anyway, out of a sense of duty and wisdom in keeping the marriage strong. Often enough even thought the drive wasn’t there to begin with, women who do feel bonded affection for their husbands do in fact enjoy the actual sex once foreplay and sex itself has begun, if their husband has some skills.
We should bring that back, contra whatever wave current feminism.
Susan–
It was a tipo and “such” was what I meant to say.
Haha, OK. Let’s just consider it a Freudian slip.
I was in so much pain during labor that I started screaming for meds and the nurse slapped me across the face. She would argue I was a beast. The only value in Lamaze, IMO, was the guys’ involvement. It gave them something to do. And we made good friends in that class, we’re still in touch with one of those couples.
@Susan #115
One down, 8 more to go! BTW I knew the answer to the mohl question, just wanted to get that shot in.
Did you hear about the advetisement for an opearator of the circimcision machine at St. Luke’s here in Boise? “Guaranteed 40 skins a week, and a good chance to get a head!”
Plus, the one about the mohl who goes to the taxidermist with all the foreskins he’s collected over the past ten years. The mohl says “Make me somehing practical”. Comesback 6 weeks later, and the taxidermist hands him a wallett.
“What” says the mohl”you used all that skin to make this crummy little wallett?”
“Well” replies the mohl “rub it and it turns into a suitcase.”
BTW if Jesus was Jewish, how come He has a Puerto Rican Name?
@Stingray
This is interesting, because it calls into question who gets to define masculinity, or what defines a man. Men can obviously decide what works best for them, but if female response is part of the calculation then what we think also matters, even if it’s just about what makes a man sexy.
I’m with you on the question of real strength. To me, a player is a man of weak character. Poor impulse control, high in novelty-seeking, low conscientiousness. These are the personality traits associated with promiscuity for either sex. They are also associated with high neuroticism. Lastly, I find it juvenile for a man to make the pursuit of pussy his life’s mission. It amounts to being stuck at age 16.
Epitaph:
Spilled a lotta seed. None took.
That surprises me. I’d be interested to hear how he defines that. Any links?
Susan Walsh–
Those regularly occurring articles are exagg. Feminist lie a lot, or just make things up a lot ’cause it feels right to them. Actual studies done on the hours spent on housework and child care in American families where both spouse work for pay full time show that men only do a few hours a week less on those things than their wives did.
As well women tend to care way more about and have higher standards of clean and tidy than men do. Since that’s so, and since after a point the only one who cares is her, shouldn’t she have to spend more time on really clean and tidy than him, if she has such high standards on that? I say yes she should, or shut up about it.
Most women I know did this. If nothing else, we know we’re gross, smelling like sour milk and baby vomit. It’s a time when a lot of men cheat. A woman who refuses sex at this time is asking for trouble.
Susan–
He has said that a number of times, especially in his heyday, 2008-2009. I read every one of his blog posts during that period, and actually went back and read all of his 2007 ones as well from his archives. Started in April 2007.
No links for you, that would be work. Heh.
He’s said being in love is the best for him a number of times.
I also have inside info (same sources as earlier inside info I’ve alluded to) that he has in fact been in at least two long lasting LTR’s during the 4 year course of his blog. Maybe half or most of the time. My huntch is that is diapearance from it most of the time from 2010-recently coincided with the second of such during the course of the blog. No inside info as to whether than means he’s recently broken up.
Roissy is pro-love the same way a drug addict is pro-drug. New love produces the same cocktail of neurochemicals as potent drugs, and those players keep seeking the next new high from “love.” In these cases, “love” is more about seeking their own pleasure than truly loving and giving to another person.
Certainly they don’t believe in a lifetime of “loving” only one person, and they will always search for younger, hotter and more physically pleasurable versions of the “love object” to fulfill the emptiness within themselves. They probably fall in love many times, but ditch as soon as the “in-love” feeling fades. They do not care to keep what they have, because to them, it has become “old, stale and boring.”
Some women do this, too, when they are unbalanced and immature. This can lead to the “promiscuous serial monogamy” that Dalrock has mentioned. The “love” (drug)-seeker goes for the feeling of dopamine high when newly in love, milks the relationship for a few years, hardly ever giving anything in the process, then leaves in search of another victim.
Genuine love can be renewed by being introspective, emotionally balanced, allowing yourself to be trusting and vulnerable, and by giving, truly giving yourself and doing acts of service for another. This is why the message to women to act entitled and treat their men like servants is so harmful; not only does it render men less attractive, it stops women from renewing their own wellspring of love.
Also, what one focuses on matters. When a woman directs her sexual energy to flirting with other men, when a man directs his energy to being sexual with other women and getting attention from other women, those actions diminish the romantic bond with one’s partner. One could argue that polyamory is fine so long as everyone consents, but often poly folks are primarily after their own pleasure rather than doing it with the intention of truly loving multiple people.
Most people struggle with love, believing it to be a fleeting set of neurochemicals that bring pleasure and ecstasy as much as torment and pain. Most people have terrible relationships because most people are not balanced, not emotionally receptive, and not able to have good relationships. They believe that happiness comes from an external source that brings them pleasure, and this leaves a gaping hole inside their spiritual bodies that can never be filled, except perhaps temporarily.
To truly love, one must be whole, must be content with what one already has, and must truly love oneself. Then he or she can give that contentment and love to another, a person who is also whole. Instead of taking from each other, they give to each other. Instead of fighting against each other, they fight on the same team for each other. Instead of causing each other hurt and suffering, they bring each other joy, harmony, peace, balance, support, and abundant, awesome, sublime love.
Susan, awesome response to Stingray!
Hope, that more or less jibes with my impression, esp. the first graph.
No offense Doug, but saying he had 2 “lasting” LTRs in 4 years is like saying my 2 high school relationships of 1.5 years during those 4 years were “lasting.” That’s not lasting. That’s fleeting in the grand scheme of life.
I’m 27 and don’t have experience with a 20+ year romantic relationship, so I’m not saying that I’m an authority on the truly long-term. What I have written I learned from people who have stayed happily through multiple decades together. Susan also has authority on this subject.
Parental love is such a salve for the kids. When parents stay together lovingly until old age it is one of the greatest things for producing emotionally healthy children. Even adults often say they are devastated when their much older parents divorce, so staying together for the long haul has real impacts through the generations.
At least most players state that they never want kids.
Susan–
I think you should add Stingray to the list. She shared enough detail in the “Why are you here” thread in your forum to merit that, seems to me.
Epic comment by Hope there on love. I couldn’t possibly add to it.
“Of course, smacking the woman you love when she gives you back-talk or demanding that she obey you doesn’t seem like a display of strength, but of weakness”
You are awesome, Jesus.
Susan, I’ve gotten that cognitive dissonance when reading blogs from as*holes that have some good advice too, more times than I can count!
Jhane, your words are wonderful; I don’t think you need to worry about rethinking your commenting strategy at all.
Hope, beautifully said about love, and Stingray, your husband’s just wonderful! I’ll need a man too who tells off any pushy medical worker while I’m trying to deliver a human being into the world: “She said she wants a FEMALE doctor! No exceptions, or we’ll deliver this baby ourselves! Nurse, stop that cheerleader stuff, you want to give her an ulcer? No, there will not be ANY medical students in here!” Now that’s my kind of alpha.
Yes, I will happily add Stingray to the list. Her marriage is clearly working on every level. I hadn’t considered the forum, that’s a good point.
We tend to like “The New Basics” pretty big cookbook by Rousso and Lukins. Gen X cookbook. Actually I introduced M to it. You know who introduced me to it,and in fact made it a present to me when she went off to law school outside NYC? My long legged “Texas Stripper” blonde live in girl friend. Go figure.
Though we, well mostly but not entirely M, get a lot of recipes off the internet. We cook together a good bit, esp. but not only in the summer on weekends.
Wow. Thanks. Both of you. Would it be too cheesy to say I feel honored by that?
I love this, Hope. One of the things that I find sad is that so many people–PUAs, self-professed alphas who feel justified in cheating, entitlement princesses, sluts who let their hypergamous instincts run amok, and many others besides–so many of them are looking for fulfillment in what they can get, when one of the most basic truths (and one of the most interesting paradoxes of life) is that most of what you need can be gotten by giving. “He who loses himself, finds himself” and all that.
The only thing I’d change is this: you say that in order to give, one must first be whole. I’m not sure that’s true. I think that the very act of giving can make one whole.
Hope–
A lot of players state that when they’re young, but then eventually want to settle down and have kids. I’d bet that Flyfreshandyoung will follow that pattern. Yeah he’s saying now he doesn’t ever want to get married. He’s 22. He happily had a steady very pretty (a 9) gf during two years in the middle of college. Then he learned about game and anti-feminism mostly from reading a ton of Roissy archives. Well he was a natural basically but had inhibiting beliefs. He only went player, very successfully, in the second half of this junior year.
I’d say by 30-35 he’ll be married to a wife 10 years younger who’ll be popping out a kid or two.
There’s a lot of alpha hateraide around here, esp. since I spilled on my occasionally open relationship with M on the epically long thread that had as it’s subject the nature of male sexuality.
What I’d say is that for their own good girls should stick to guys at their own SMV or at most one point above, who want to be in a relationship with her, and that she not kid herself about that. Guys two or more SMV’s above her who are some kind of alpha won’t actually want to (though some will fake it) – she needs to take the Susan Walsh red pill on that and get realistic. Guy’s one SMV higher are dicey. Half of one is likely to be ok, though precision on this is an illusion.
Considerably older (7 to 10 years older) alphas are a safer bet that about same age ones for mid 20s hot enough girls (7’s or 8’s for lesser alphas, 8’s or 9’s for alphas), since many do want to settle down, go monogamous, build a life together, and have kids by that age. Mid 20s girls are a good bet for older alphas as well since it’s more likely they haven’t really slutified themselves at that age, if they’re tried hard to be good girls. Anna from the forum at 21 (8.5-9) is early 20s but an example of what I mean. If she has one bf from now until she’s 24, she’ll seem like a real good catch to many alphas in their early to mid thirties who want to settle down and build a life with a woman
Doug, fair enough. A lot of us were very different when younger. I know I was, and I’ve changed (hopefully for the better) over the years. The biggest difference is if I look at who I was at 15 vs. 20 vs. 25. I did always want kids though.
Jesus Mahoney, there’s a reason I said to be whole first. If you give and give and martyr yourself without taking care of yourself at all, that can also turn into unhealthy behavior. I’ve been told when I was younger that I could be “too” self-sacrificing. I put up with things that I shouldn’t have to satisfy my idealistic concept of being “loving.” I had very low self-esteem, didn’t set good boundaries, and stayed in a bad relationship for way too long. Now that I am more “whole” and healthier, I can give more “wholesome” love. Happiness is contagious, too. When I’m happy, the energy behind my touch and smile and actions toward others is more positive.
My husband likes to use the analogy of the oxygen mask on the airplane: put the mask on yourself first before you help others put it on, because you are able to give better service to others when you are strong and whole, as opposed to passed out on the ground, gasping for air.
Susan, Badger – concerning the “player’s ode to love” @76,80
I read that paean to love before. I checked the blog where it was posted, reviewing some of the blogger’s other posts. The language didn’t match the post on love. The same post showed up on a young technocrat’s blog.
Neither blogger listed a source, but I knew I had read it before, years ago.
I believe the author is none other than Roissy. It has all the earmarks of his lyrical, almost Nietzchean, prose.
Doug,
I think Sue’s always been pro-beta/anti-alpha. Personally I think the terms are useless. That said, I don’t think there’s a lot of alpha “hateraide” here. Personally, I have no problem with leaders and people with strong personalities.
I think a lot of people are repulsed by people with low character. I dislike people with no character. Most people who harp on their own alpha-ness have no character. Those people are assholes. But there are many assholes with no character who wouldn’t identify themselves as alpha, also.
That’s true. You need to love and give to yourself as well.
Guys who whore around in their younger years deserve the same consequences as female sluts. And will get them, if they don’t seriously change their tunes.
“I think Sue’s always been pro-beta/anti-alpha. Personally I think the terms are useless. That said, I don’t think there’s a lot of alpha “hateraide” here. Personally, I have no problem with leaders and people with strong personalities.
I think a lot of people are repulsed by people with low character. I dislike people with no character. Most people who harp on their own alpha-ness have no character. Those people are assholes. But there are many assholes with no character who wouldn’t identify themselves as alpha, also.”
Do you have a blog? I agree that, outside basic observations of the SMP, those terms are usually useless. Alpha’s the only term that even has any scientific grounding.
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