The Grim Beeper

Today’s post is a Trifecta of Doom.

I. Marriage continues its steep decline.

Today’s Economix blog at the New York Times covers the latest study on marriage from the Pew Research center in Older to Wed, If They Marry at All. Using the 2010 census, researchers found that the average age at marriage has risen again, to 26.5 years for women and 28.7 years for men. This is not unique to the U.S. In the last thirty years, the average female age at first marriage has increased in 75 of 77 countries that were studied.

The number of marriages is also down significantly, down 10% in the last two years:

It’s not just a matter of delay either. Check this out:

Some have claimed the economy is the culprit but Wharton economist Justin Wolfers had this to say in 2010:

 You’ve probably heard the latest marriage narrative: With the recession upon us, young lovers can’t afford to marry.  As appealing as this story is, it has one problem: It’s not true. In fact, the marriage rate appears amazingly insensitive to the business cycle.

There is a rise in cohabitation that could well be related to the Great Recession, because couples are trying to save money by living together. Many of them eventually will marry.

The biggest drop has been in the 18-24 age group, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. The mid-20s is the sweet spot for the lowest odds of divorce, according to some researchers.

Late professor Norval Glenn of UT Austin, in his published study drawing from five different American data sets,
explained:

The greatest…likelihood of being in an intact marriage of the highest quality is among those who married at age 22-25. The findings of this study do indicate that for most persons, little or nothing in the way of marital success is likely to be gained by deliberately delaying marriage beyond the midtwenties.

Paul Amato of Penn State explains further:

Once people enter their early to mid-twenties, the risk of divorce is reduced. Indeed, people who postpone marriage until their thirties face a dwindling supply of potential partners – a situation that may increase the likelihood of forming unions with partners who are not good marriage material. In other words, marrying “too late” may increase the risk of having a troubled relationship.

W. Bradford Wilcox at UVA agrees:

Couples who marry in their mid-twenties tend to do best, when you combine a consideration of quality and stability.

II. The college sex ratio predicts a dramatic erosion in marriage rates over the next generation among the educated.

At first glance, the news is less alarming for the college educated, if not for society as a whole. The share of college educated individuals currently married is 64%, down 16% from 1960. In contrast, only 47% of those with a high school education are currently married, down 35% since 1960. Marriage has been a more stable institution among the college educated population. 

That cannot last. The current sex ratio nationwide in American colleges and universities is 57% female, 43% male, and the gap is widening. This means that among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men. Let me say that again.

Among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men.

 

That estimate is actually rosy because it assumes that men will want to marry in equal numbers to women. The data was not analyzed by sex, but in an era of misandrist family law that’s a dubious claim.

Of course, women may choose to marry men with less education than themselves, but this seems unlikely to happen in large numbers for several reasons:

  • Women generally prefer men with equal or higher status.
  • Men generally prefer women with equal or lower status.
  • Society is stratified by socioeconomic status. 

III. Tick Tock Biological Clock

Despite progressive sex ed curricula in most areas of the country, adult women today are seriously misinformed about the state of their ovaries. 

During a recent story that aired on NPR one infertile woman in her early 40s couldn’t understand it. She insisted that she works out regularly, does yoga, even has a personal trainer. She eats well and is healthy. She never knew that her ovaries were becoming less productive in spite of those measures.

A recent survey found that women dramatically underestimate how much fertility declines with age. They estimated that a 30 year-old had an 80% chance of getting pregnant in one try. The real likelihood is 30%. They also thought a 40 year-old woman would have a 40% success rate, while those odds are less than 10%. 

Women are surprised to learn this information and they’re angry about it. One woman had this to say about her 10 year struggle to conceive:

 I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over. You tell us, “Oh, your fertile years rapidly decline in your mid-20s.” Well, if I’m not dating anyone, and I want to have a family, what is that information going to do for me?

Barbara Collura heads the National Infertility Association. She says the first thing women say is “Why didn’t anybody tell me this?”

Let’s be honest, women don’t want to hear that they can’t have it all. We can have a great job, we can have a master’s degree, we don’t need to worry about child-bearing because that’s something that will come. And when it doesn’t happen, women are really angry.

 So why aren’t women getting the message? How can women with master’s degrees have such a poor understanding of their own bodies? Three guesses, the first two don’t count.

“A decade ago, a campaign by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine sparked a vicious backlash. Ads on public buses in several big cities featured a baby bottle shaped like an hourglass, to warn women their time was running out. But women’s rights groups called it a scare tactic that left women feeling pressured and guilty.”

So now they’re feeling barren and depressed instead. 

The prognosis for marriage is grim. We need to take our heads out of the sand and speak the truth about this issue. It’s too late for the generation of women in their 30s and 40s today. Those of you in your 20s can have marriage and a family if you want it, but you can’t have it all. My generation of feminists lied to you about that.

You have some tough choices to make. What’s more important, career or family? When you think about graduate school, are you considering the full range of costs and benefits, including potentially delaying marriage into your 30s? Are you open to meeting your life partner in your early 20s, and filtering out men you know aren’t husband material?

There are no easy answers. The climate for marriage is hostile. If you know you want to marry and have a family, you must plan for it. Husbands and babies don’t fall from trees.  

11 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Thrasymachus

    The news is not entirely disappointing. As you have pointed out on more than one occasion, marriage appears to be in much more robust shape among the college educated. Brad Wilcox confirms this in a post today:

    http://familyscholars.org/2011/12/14/marriage-disappearing-only-if-you-dont-have-a-college-degree/

    Incidentally, the (late) University of Texas professor cited was named Norval Glenn, not Glenn Norval.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Thrasymachus

      Thanks for that link. Wilcox is probably the best marriage researcher in the country. Whoops on Glenn. I’ve been reading that backwards for three years now.

  • deti

    My thoughts:

    1. The poor economy seems to be driving down the divorce rate. Many family lawyers say when times are tough, couples who would otherwise divorce stay together because they know divorce would financially devastate them both. Quite simply, they can’t afford to divorce.

    2. Most of the women I knew who married and are still married decided to marry as young women, before reaching age 25. This seems to have held true regardless of whether in school, grad school, employed or unemployed, educational level or socioeconomic status. Those women put finding a mate at the top of their priority lists. They also either didn’t ride the carousel, or decided to get off the carousel early.

    3. College education means better paying jobs. More women in college means women will have more earning power on average than men. Women marrying men with less education and less earning power means more unhappy marriages on average, increased societal dysfunction, and more divorces. And it’s likely that most of those women who divorce won’t remarry.

    4. In retrospect, the problems Susan points out so well have been at least 40 years in the making. It will take at least a generation or two, if not longer, to turn it around.

  • deti

    5. It looks like among those college educated women who married men with college educations, the divorce rate is probably lower — a lot lower.

  • Malia

    Thank you Susan for speaking honestly about fertility. Too many women want to use rare celebrity examples of “advanced maternal age” (most assisted with modern science) to show that they can have children later only to be forced to confront the truth when options are most limited.

    There is no perfect answer but at least young women can make informed decisions of the trade offs they are making.

  • Mike

    Just saw something on AC360 last night about marriage rates having dropped 5% from 56 to 51% in America.

  • deti

    Malia:

    True. Most women who aren’t celebrities can’t afford the extremely expensive treatments those older women used to get pregnant. Those treatments also tend to result in multiple births. Triplets at 40?!

  • http://hookingupsmart.com GudEnuf

    I thought the “trifecta of doom” was the three charts showing marriage decline.

    Then I realized you were only 1/3 done.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      Ouch. It is depressing, I know. But it’s just no good being in denial. Men have more time, but women who want to marry and have children should be working toward that goal once they graduate from college, IMO. (Nothing wrong with doing so before then, it’s just not easy in the contemporary culture.)

  • http://hookingupsmart.com GudEnuf

    “Of course, women may choose to marry men with less education than themselves, but this seems unlikely to happen in large numbers for several reasons:

    Women generally prefer men with equal or higher status.
    Men generally prefer women with equal or lower status.
    Society is stratified by socioeconomic status. ”

    Are you implying that women would be happier if men had the majority of the high status jobs?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Are you implying that women would be happier if men had the majority of the high status jobs?

      No, they certainly wouldn’t say so if the question were phrased that way. However, when you think about all the women in their 30s, quite accomplished in their careers saying, “Waaaah, waaaah, there are no good men left!” then you see how they are voting with their feet.

      Women want high status jobs, and they want men who have even higher (or equal) status jobs.

  • Ramble

    Susan, please allow me to yell one thing from the rooftop:

    The average girl in America gets married AFTER her fertility has started to decline.

    After the age of 26, the fertility and likelihood of a healthy birth to a healthy child already starts to go down.

    I can not think of more than 2 or 3 girls in my entire life who would have wanted to hear that. For the average young, educated cosmopolitan girl, it throws a huge monkey wrench into their plans.

  • Isabel

    Deti,

    Those treatments also tend to result in multiple births. Triplets at 40?!

    That’s because the doctors have to use 12+ eggs per cycle due to womb hostility, and if one egg does make it, there’s usually division failure resulting in twins. Hello? How many more signs do you need from Mother Nature to GTFO? The sad thing here is that naturally infertile young couples have to fight tooth and nail to receive treatment on the NHS, whilst “voluntary” single mothers get all sorts of financial aid and encouragement. It’s disgusting.

    I don’t get the college ratio thing btw. Is it because the men are actually earning less than their hypothetical wives or is it just because they don’t have the piece of paper?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Isabel

      I don’t get the college ratio thing btw. Is it because the men are actually earning less than their hypothetical wives or is it just because they don’t have the piece of paper

      In the U.S. men just aren’t going to college in the same numbers as women. Women represent nearly 60% of current students. Fast forward five years and there will be a huge imbalance in the sex ration wrt education.

  • Ramble

    GudEnuf, could you possibly rephrase your question?

    “Does the average girl hope to find a large supply of high status males?”

    That high status does not need to come from a college education…especially when you consider how popular “artists” and wanna-be rock stars are with girls.

    How those wanna-be rockstars will pay the mortgage is another question, but their status, if only for a while, would be there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That high status does not need to come from a college education…especially when you consider how popular “artists” and wanna-be rock stars are with girls.

      Yes, but those types don’t marry as much. Or if they do, they’re not monogamous. There are exceptions of course – Paul McCartney, Ringo, Sting, Bono. Their wives essentially won the lottery in that regard.

  • Isabel

    Division failure even? I meant just division. :(

  • Ramble

    Something else that should be noted in all this:

    26.5 is the average age of women who get married. Lower socioeconomic females get married younger and wealthier college educated women get married later. For them, lets make the average, oh, 28.

    Let’s say some poorer girl get married at 23 and divorces 5 years later, she is back on the market at 28.

    A 28 year old woman who gets married and divorces 5 years later is now 33.

    We all know what the SMP is like.

    IOW, it is not a great idea for a marriage minded female to get divorced after, say, 5 years if she marries later in life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      IOW, it is not a great idea for a marriage minded female to get divorced after, say, 5 years if she marries later in life

      Good point!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Yeah, the fertility thing sucks. I’m 27, almost 28, and I am scared that I won’t be able to have a healthy baby. This year I had a stillbirth almost at term and a miscarriage due to chromosomal issues. This kind of news is very depressing. At least I am happily married though.

    I think the denial comes from the fact that you can’t necessarily “feel” your fertility dropping. I don’t drink, smoke or do drugs, not on any prescription medication, exercise, eat healthily, 19 BMI, no risk factors, no family history of miscarriages, and so it’s hard to hear that my chances are much lower than just 5 years ago.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I had my kids at 30 and 32, and had no difficulty getting pregnant. Those with fertility issues are in the small minority at your age. It’s important to keep this in perspective.

  • Ramble

    Women want high status jobs, and they want men who have even higher (or equal) status jobs.

    Just like Lake Wobegon, were all of the kids are above average.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Just like Lake Wobegon, were all of the kids are above average.

      Exactly. Women will compromise, either by relaxing their demands, or remaining single.

  • Ramble

    In the U.S. men just aren’t going to college in the same numbers as women. Women represent nearly 60% of current students. Fast forward five years and there will be a huge imbalance in the sex ration wrt education.

    Susan, it is actually worse than you think when you consider that many schools actively fight the trend. That is, they are admitting more guys who are not qualified for their respective schools.

  • Ramble

    Yes, but those types don’t marry as much.

    Susan, you do understand that that is part of what makes them high status.

    That accountant who went to the local State U and comes from a “nice” family and wears Izod shirts…not so much.

    Just think of those older Apple versus PC commercials.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, but those types don’t marry as much.

      Susan, you do understand that that is part of what makes them high status.

      Hmmm, I don’t think so. I think men with options have less incentive to get married. I don’t believe that men who declare they will never marry gain status.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    They need to make college far tougher. It used to be that someone with a college degree got a great, rigorous, very well-rounded education. My mother was very smart, graduated college in the late 70s, and was versed in advanced math, physics, sciences, world history, literature, Latin and the medicines. Nowadays the general requirements are extremely easy, and lots of (I hate to say this) dumb people are graduating with a piece of paper. That’s why a graduate degree today is needed where the college degree used to suffice.

    Is this what happens when college education turns into a profitable industry?

  • deti

    @ Isabel:

    “That’s because the doctors have to use 12+ eggs per cycle due to womb hostility, and if one egg does make it, there’s usually division failure resulting in twins. Hello? How many more signs do you need from Mother Nature to GTFO?”

    I’ve known a couple of women over 36 who tried this. For most, a couple of rounds and $2o K later, no viable pregnancy. It’s very sad, really. And high risk, and high expense. At that rate she’s better off trying to adopt.

    “The sad thing here is that naturally infertile young couples have to fight tooth and nail to receive treatment on the NHS, whilst “voluntary” single mothers get all sorts of financial aid and encouragement. It’s disgusting.”

    That must be in the UK or elsewhere in Europe. In the US, most insurance plans do not pay for infertility treatments or procedures. A $15K IVF procedure is all out of pocket. Most people in the US can’t even come close to affording that, and for most it’s more trouble than it’s worth.

    As to the college ratio, in the US fewer men attend college. When I went 25 years ago it was more equivalent almost 1:1 men to women. Now it’s approaching 60% women. I gather there are a lot of reasons for this: a lot of men either don’t see the value in a college education, or don’t succeed at it when they try, or can’t afford it, or see bleak economic prospects whether they attend college or not so they simply don’t put forth the effort. It’s still true that people regardless of gender earn more with a college degree than without. So if women have more education and the resultant increased earning power, that puts most of them at higher status than most of the men they come in regular contact with.

  • Ramble

    From deti:

    I gather there are a lot of reasons for this: a lot of men either don’t see the value in a college education, or don’t …

    How about:
    Sit Still!
    Be Quiet!
    Memorize this!
    Regurgitate it back to me!
    Why can’t you behave better, like your sister?
    That’s it, special ed for you (and more special ed funds for us…and yes, they get more money per special ed student than for regular students…it literally pays to put “misbehaving” children in special classes)

    Deti, Susan has covered this before and how her daughter and son got treated differently.

  • Ramble

    Hope,

    Is this what happens when college education turns into a profitable industry?

    It has been “profitable” for non-profits for a pretty long time. Harvard has over 25 BILLION in cash. Billion, with a “B”.

    Post-WWII generations and their various programs simply opened the floodgates.

  • deti

    @ Ramble:

    “Does the average girl hope to find a large supply of high status males?”

    “That high status does not need to come from a college education…especially when you consider how popular “artists” and wanna-be rock stars are with girls.

    “How those wanna-be rockstars will pay the mortgage is another question, but their status, if only for a while, would be there.”

    Yes, but I think it depends on where you live. By orders of magnitude there are fewer of those high status “artists” and wannabe rock stars in the midwest, where I live. Most of those artists and garage band dudes have low status day jobs at subsistence wage levels. Those men aren’t the marrying type and most recognize them as unmarriageable. Most women flock to them for tingles, not marriage — which, of course, seems to be part of the problem.

  • Höllenhund

    “Among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men.”

    Not if polygamy is legalized. I can actually see that happening in the next 10 years.

    “I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over. ”

    Huh, WTF? Some women are so deranged it makes my head spin. Well, actually it doesn’t anymore, I’m used to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Not if polygamy is legalized. I can actually see that happening in the next 10 years.

      I’ve read that this could happen based on the precedent set by gay marriage. If it does happen on a technicality that doesn’t mean any but a few outliers will embrace it. More might embrace polyamory, which at least has the potential to be equitable.

      I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over.

      Huh, WTF? Some women are so deranged it makes my head spin. Well, actually it doesn’t anymore, I’m used to it.

      Yeah, that’s some serious feminist programming right there. Who are “they?” What are they “lumping” onto women? Does she mean God and aging?

      Excuse me but I find it so lame that you periodically have these girl talks about Roissy being some deranged psycho

      In the words of George W. Bush, when confronted by a Democrat suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome:

      Who cares what you think?

      Roissy simply has better cognitive abilites than most men, that’s it.

      Agreed, that’s why I describe him as brilliant and perceptive.

      You speak to me nonchalantly about women’s rape fantasies and fascination with Twilight and then expect me to be shocked and disgusted by a man who likes rough anal sex and degrading women,

      I’m speechless that you would equate the two. One is fantasy, one is acting out violence.

      it’s common knowledge that tons of women yearn for degrading rough sex?

      You might want to dial back the porn consumption.

  • John G

    What no Schadenfreude yet?

  • Ramble

    Yes, but I think it depends on where you live. By orders of magnitude there are fewer of those high status “artists” and wannabe rock stars in the midwest, where I live. Most of those artists and garage band dudes have low status day jobs at subsistence wage levels. Those men aren’t the marrying type and most recognize them as unmarriageable. Most women flock to them for tingles, not marriage — which, of course, seems to be part of the problem.

    Deti, I was not trying to lay out the solution, but help paint the picture, as it were.

    Susan was, in that instance, simply talking about girls wanting high status males. Being able to get him to lock it down is another matter. Personally, I think that they would be better off spreading their legs for accountants.

  • deti

    @ Ramble:

    “Deti, I was not trying to lay out the solution, but help paint the picture, as it were.

    Susan was, in that instance, simply talking about girls wanting high status males. Being able to get him to lock it down is another matter. Personally, I think that they would be better off spreading their legs for accountants.”

    Agreed. I think we’re both fully aware of what the picture looks like and what the optimal solutions are.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, the obedience, being quiet, memorization annd regurgitation, etc. is how education is in most other countries, and actually a lot stricter and more regulated. When I moved to the US, I was struck by rowdy and chaotic school classrooms were, and wondered how any learning actually happens.

    However, in other cultures, young boys are praised to be more intelligent, more capable and simply better than girls, and the expectations are different. Boys also tend to be better at STEM subjects which are more prestigious in other places. There is a lot more emphasis on competition, which is a more masculine style. Test scores and grades are publicized, and the low achievers are shamed for being bad and told to work harder. Boys form hierarchies based on academic achievement instead of sports.

    At least, that is the case when I was growing up in Asia.

  • http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

    @Hope

    They need to make college far tougher.

    The education establishment has done a pretty good job of prolonging adolescence and delaying adulthood. Odd thing, though. We *asked* them to do just that.

    What “we” (as a society) wanted was to protect our children by preparing them better. It didn’t work out that way. Wrapping children in swaddling clothing only protects superficially and then it makes them dependent.

    Good job, educarats.

    Good job, parents.
    [/snark]

    Now that too many are unprepared for adulthood even as their bodies are aging, we perceive a crisis. It’s not here yet, but it *is* time to wise-up. If there was ever a time to take personal responsibility, this is it. Those whom we left in charge of our lives have let us all down pretty badly. We should have taken charge of our own lives instead of letting them give us this fake sense of security, because it was never real.

    Okay, rant off.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, the obedience, being quiet, memorization annd regurgitation, etc. is how education is in most other countries, and actually a lot stricter and more regulated.

    Who says that America should be like Indonesia (as just one example).

    Most Americans love our slight Cowboy spirit. (Please do not OVER read that statement. Please do not take it to some stupid extreme.)

    Free thinking, energetic, creative, etc.

    Having a bunch of energetic, physical, hands-on, experience driven, rambunctious boys attempt to sit still and memorize facts about Beowulf is not the answer.

    For some, yes…but not for all.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    29 Höllenhund December 15, 2011 at 1:33 pm wrote:

    “Among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men.”

    Not if polygamy is legalized. I can actually see that happening in the next 10 years.

    You may be right, but I think that this is not happening. I have seen some suggestions about it, but I do not think that it is on the (political) map.

    On many sense it only does situation worse.

  • deti

    I doubt polygamy will be legalized. If it is, it’ll take more than 10 years.

    1. It’s just not supported by culture. It doesn’t seem to enjoy the same kind of cultural acceptance that gay rights and gay marriage have. And even that has taken 40 to 50 years.

    2. Most men can barely support one wife financially, let alone more than one.

    3. Polygamy would be optional and only the top alpha men who even want to marry would exercise the option. But polygamy doesn’t fit the optimal mating strategy for men: a rotating harem. Of alphas who marry, they tend to gravitate toward a wife/regular sex partner with a series of ONSs and flings on the side. The apex top men who can do this and want to do so, do so now regardless of legal or social conventions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of alphas who marry, they tend to gravitate toward a wife/regular sex partner with a series of ONSs and flings on the side. The apex top men who can do this and want to do so, do so now regardless of legal or social conventions.

      As we so painfully learned in a recent thread.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    susan,

    this was a very well written essay.

    it is an essay written by a women in her 50s, giving sound advice to women in their early 20s. it properly blames the first generation of feminists for lying to the second generation, and warns the third generation to hurry up and to make big decisions before they run out of time.

    it even does the right thing and mentions “misandrist family laws”, which made me proud :-)

    so anyway, i figured since you were doing such a great job, i would stop by and help you out and solve this issue for all your young female readers in their early 20s.

    it’s an easy answer, but one not mentioned in the essay, and here it is:

    marry a guy 10 years older.

    it doesn’t surprise me that this solution isn’t mentioned in your essay — still haven’t checked the comments, but wouldn’t surprise me if it wasn’t mentioned there either. it doesn’t surprise me because the feminists have done such a great job of shaming men when want to marry “significantly” younger — and of persuading women that these types of men are dangerous and disgusting — that the terms “pedophile” and “pervert” are thrown around frequently and without remorse.

    but that IS the answer. the feminists are wrong, once again.

    i’ve said it several times. a young women of 22 — or say, 24, to be more realistic — who is ready to stop playing the cut throat SMP game, and is seriously looking to get married and start a family, she should DEFINITELY look to date men in their early 30s, cause that’s when a lot of THEM are getting tired of dating and playing around, and nothing will persuade a 34 year old man to want to “settle down” quicker than the prospect of banging a hot, young 24 year old girl exclusively, by law.

    whether he SHOULD marry her, in america, with the current laws, that’s another issue, but regardless, as far as your female reader are concerned, it’s PROBLEM SOLVED.

    always here to help!

    rivelino

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rivelino

      I don’t have any problem with your advice. I generally suggest that women focus on men five years older the minute they get out of college. Ten is also fine, but tbh most women don’t want that much of an age gap. If that’s the answer, that’s the answer, and we’ll probably see more of it. However, as has been discussed here before, quite a few guys express a desire to have sex with 21 year olds, but not to marry them or even date them seriously. Guys seeking an LTR or even a wife want someone whose life experience is a bit closer to their own. It may be that once a woman is out of school for a couple of years, she’ll be fine – 24—–>34. I don’t know. I know a bunch of young women doing OKCupid right now – all 21-23, and they’re getting a ton of responses from guys 23 and 24, but very few from guys 30+. I do think guys self-segregate to some degree on this.

  • Ted D

    “There is a lot more emphasis on competition, which is a more masculine style”

    And THAT is key. In the U.S. the schools simply punish boys for being boys instead of finding ways to take their natural state and use it to help them learn. I can’t speak to other countries as I have no experience with their school systems. I can say that what I see here is a lot of boys being treated badly for wanting to act naturally. I was a quiet kid, so sitting still all day reading and writing didn’t throw me off. But most of my friends got in trouble a lot in grade school. And frankly, those early experiences pretty much turned them off from school for the rest of their lives. They felt like they were unfairly treated, and since the school wasn’t “fair” and they had no chance of “winning”, they gave up playing the game at all.

    the “game” I’m talking about is actually participating and learning in school, instead of doing what most did: just enough to get by. If we are going to make school so terrible for young boys, why are we so surprised when they grow older and have no desire to try?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Joe, I don’t think that education is necessarily coddling. At least, it shouldn’t be. There are people who graduate college these days who can’t even spell properly. The smartest aren’t being challenged, and the mediocre slide through the system and graduate with the same piece of paper.

    Ramble, I do admire American creativity and free-thinking spirit. Some great innovations have come from this country. But would you disagree with the following statement? Most people are not creative or free-thinking. They do well in structure, tradition and clear boundaries. That is also a critique of sexual liberation, letting young people’s sexual imperatives run wild.

    A lot of foreigners work inside the US in top, cutting-edge fields of research and technology. In order to innovate in a lot of those fields, they need a lot of smarts, but also hard work and rigorous training, which does mean sitting quietly through studies — not of Beowulf, though. Most of them probably didn’t read Beowulf.

  • Ramble
    IOW, it is not a great idea for a marriage minded female to get divorced after, say, 5 years if she marries later in life

    Good point!

    That one, I got from Roissy.

    From Moe the bartender: The older they get, the cuter they ain’t.

  • Ted D

    I have to say Rivelino makes sense. And I know that most of the women here don’t want to hear it, but there it is. Maybe not 10 years older, but I would say a woman that is mid to late 20’s should be looking at men in their early 30’s. My current SO is 8 years younger than I am, and I honestly have no issue with relating to her. I mention this because I hear a lot of women saying things like “what would a guy that much older have in common with me? What would we talk about?” Well unless you are an immature and shallow person, by your mid to late 20’s you should have plenty to discuss. Politics, religion, science, art… Look, if you are a well rounded (and well read) person with another well rounded person, 10 years is not going to make a bit of difference. And, as you both age, the few differences there are will fade.

    Yeah, it is likely that he will die before you. So what? If you spend most of your life with him in a happy and loving relationship, spending the last few alone isn’t a bad trade-off. Besides, I read somewhere that married men tend to live longer than their single peers. So just being with him will extend his time with you. ;)

  • Ramble

    Those with fertility issues are in the small minority at your age.

    Susan, do not perpetuate bullshit.

    If you are implying that “real”fertility problems are not likely to show up, for the average woman, until, say, 35 and later, then, I understand.

    But fertility is not the only issue. Likely health problems for the child are also a major issue.

    And these things have simply not been investigated as much as they could have been.

    On the harsher side:
    Autism
    Birth Defects
    Birth weight
    Un-descending Testes
    etc.

    On the “lighter” side:
    GIRD
    Allergies
    etc.

    Whenever these discussions come up it is only fertility that gets mentioned and rarely anything else.

    Girls simply don’t want to get pregnant, they want to give birth to a healthy baby.

    If yours were healthy, wonderful. But, so far, the stats for the general population are not lying.

    Also, older women tend to be heavier and heavier women tend to give birth to children that will have weight problems. How much of that is nature versus nurture is another issue.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, do not perpetuate bullshit…If you are implying that “real”fertility problems are not likely to show up, for the average woman, until, say, 35 and later, then, I understand.

      This is exactly what I said. Now you’re introducing birth defects, which are more common in older mothers, but something entirely outside the scope of the post. I have no idea if maternal age of 28 is correlated with low birth rate, autism, un-descended testes and all the other stuff you listed, but I doubt it.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    “If you know you want to marry and have a family, you must plan for it. Husbands and babies don’t fall from trees.”

    I have been brewing a theory that most women (and men, probably, though that’s another matter) really only get two or three shots at a guy they could marry.

    Sure, plenty of guys would make good husbands, but the intersection of attraction, compatibility, lifestyle overlap and the right time in life (e.g. someone’s not moving away imminently or dating someone else), plus the long time it takes to get to the point of engagement and marriage, which costs you time you could spend with other partners, is the confluence of a lot of chance events. That means that you need to strike when the iron is hot.

    So a woman in her 20’s can’t afford to be “nexting” too many guys or she’ll miss her needle in the haystack. This sets up a paradox of “abundant scarcity” – you have to be ready to walk away from the wrong person, but willing to put the health of a good relationship ahead of your own self-interest. This is a tough tightrope to walk.

    A while back I got flaked on by a woman who by most accounts seemed like a very good match for me and vice versa: interesting, intelligent, liked sports, well-read, genial – we had lined up the second date and the morning of she backed out, making some noise about “a weird thing with my ex” (if you’re still fucking him, he’s not your ex dear).

    In addition to being upset about getting blown off, I thought “she probably just burned one of her chances.” Attractive intelligent guys who are DTLTR are a declining breed.

    Susan is absolutely right – guys who are good for you are not growing on trees, if you have one in your vicinity you are going to have to take some actions to catch him and keep him and that may not jive with your life plan to date.

    Which brings me to my last point. One of the things I see in young urban women that hamstrings their life is hardcore addiction to expectations and a lack of tolerance for the fact that life takes strange turns, which follows from them being taught their whole lives that they are going to have it all and if they don’t it’s someone else’s fault and by gosh we’re going to make them pay. A recent Forbes article about “millenial women burning out” had this fatuous undertone, that young women were angry and exhausted that they weren’t having the “awesome” life they’d been promised and how wrong it was that they’d been duped. (Contrast this with stories about men’s struggles that tell them to “man up” and “get up and go to work.”)

    A large pocket of young educated women lack a good sense of opportunity cost and discipline of sacrifice, and this costs them dearly in the cutthroat husband market. If I even hear the word “fabulous” out of a woman’s mouth I assume I’m dealing with one of these types.

    Kate Bolick is a classic example – she had a guy who wanted to marry her, and dumped him because it didn’t fit her idea of the lifestyle she “should be” living at that age. Ten years later, it turns out that was her “game over” moment.

  • Pingback: Why am I giving advice to women? « Rivelino in Spain

  • Ramble

    Exactly. Women will compromise, either by relaxing their demands, or remaining single.

    Until that moment, it is “Tell em lies, tell me sweet little lies“.

  • Ramble

    Hmmm, I don’t think so. I think men with options have less incentive to get married. I don’t believe that men who declare they will never marry gain status.

    I am not saying that.

    I am saying that those guys that are likely to choose the wanna-be rockstar/artist route are likely to be seen as higher status even if they are harder to lock down. And, their status may be tied to the idea that they are harder to lock down.

    “I married the lead singer from “

  • Ramble

    That should read:
    “I married the lead singer from [insert bullshit band here]“

  • Amonymous

    @deti:
    As to the college ratio, in the US fewer men attend college. When I went 25 years ago it was more equivalent almost 1:1 men to women. Now it’s approaching 60% women.

    Not necessarily true. I understood it’s more about the overall amount of college-admissions exploding – where women have just increased their relative amount more than men. People get more education than ever before (and colleges graduate people with “less skills.”)

    Take a look to the short overview @ http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/college-has-been-oversold.html . There are more seats in communications, journalism, visual arts, psychology, humanities, business etc. faculties. Those have long been female dominated. Then again, “Male-dominated” STEM-faculties have had pretty stable intakes.

    It’s not hard to see a picture of Y-generation women actually having it way, way worse than just by looking at the SMP problems. For many of those so called “career women”, the future without a provider is unstable at best. I suspect there’s a fair amount of (educated) women for whom finding a stable marriage is genuinely becoming a last resort. I’m troubled…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anomynous

      That’s an interesting point about college majors. Unfortunately, the end result will be the same – women with a college degree, no matter how useless, are likely to want to marry a man with one.

  • indyguy77

    Ramble December 15, 2011 at 2:16 pm:
    From Moe the bartender: The older they get, the cuter they ain’t.

    Just how do you confuse Moe with Patty & Selma?

  • Ramble

    Oh shit, did I quote the wrong person?

  • Ramble

    Indy, I just looked it up, sure enough…mea culpa.

  • dragnet

    @ Susan

    “I’ve read that this could happen based on the precedent set by gay marriage. If it does happen on a technicality that doesn’t mean any but a few outliers will embrace it. More might embrace polyamory, which at least has the potential to be equitable.”

    In practice, embarcing polyamory means embracing polygamy—polygyny being many more times common than polyandry.

    I don’t think polgamy will become sanctioned as a matter of law, but I think we will definitely begin to see more de facto polygynous arrangements—with one guy living informally with a few women and his/their children.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Rivelino and Ted, the problem with a girl in her early 20s looking 10 years older is that a lot of men who are going to get married are already married by then. Weren’t you both already married in your early 30s? Thus she’s left with a higher proportion of men who specifically don’t want to marry, or who are very picky because they can afford to be. If he happens to be a great catch, and no other woman had snagged him yet, AND he’s willing to propose to her in a short time, then good for her. I just find that more unlikely.

    I would suggest that girls look at the nerdy men of their same age group before they look at men who are 10 years older. Out of the girls who are married or in a LTR and post here, a huge proportion are to a nerdy / STEM guy. We are obviously self-selected, but it does say something.

  • dragnet

    This post is a pretty good summary of where we are currently at with regards to this particular set of social phenomonen. I think it’s also good you mentioned “misandrist family law” as an real reason that actual, real-life men would have to not get married.

    The more I learn about this, the more I think Dalrock is onto something: the current trends don’t portend the disappearance of marriage—only that marriage is about to become so scarce that it will become a status symbol in itself. I think women are going to learn to actually value the men who deign to bless them with long-term investment, because so few men are willing to do so. The landscape will be littered with cautionary tales—struggling single moms, cougars who played the game just a little too long only to get washed up—and sooner or later women will begin to take this to heart and engage in smarter reproductive decisionmaking at younger ages, when it counts most.

    Not in my lifetime though, probably.

  • Ramble

    Hope, btw, previously I had referenced Indonesia as an example when I really meant to reference someplace like Singapore. Yes, I know that they don’t have that much in common, nor are they all that close to one another. My mistake.

  • deti

    “I have been brewing a theory that most women (and men, probably, though that’s another matter) really only get two or three shots at a guy they could marry.”

    Let me add to that: Most women (and men, probably, though that’s another matter) really only get two or three shots at a guy they could marry, who would marry her, and would be a compatible spouse.”

    Either way you look at it, it seems to ring true. Looking back over my dating career of about 12 years, I count three women (including my current spouse) whom I could have married, who (probably) would have married me, and who would have been compatible with me.

    Seems consistent with my observations of my siblings, my best college friends and my fraternity brothers. My sister: two men. My younger sister: one man. Most of my wife’s friends: none more than three men.

  • A.

    “Among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men.

    That estimate is actually rosy because it assumes that men will want to marry in equal numbers to women. The data was not analyzed by sex, but in an era of misandrist family law that’s a dubious claim.”

    Another thing it assumes is that if a college educated man wants to marry, he would necessarily want to marry a college educated woman. This is probably not true.

    I have a college education, but the woman I’m with does not, and not only does it not bother me in the slightest, I can’t even imagine why it would. Chalk it up to another example of men being different than women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Another thing it assumes is that if a college educated man wants to marry, he would necessarily want to marry a college educated woman. This is probably not true

      That seems like a valid point, but I do think you’re in the minority. People tend to marry within their own education bracket, possibly because they tend to run in social circles with similar others.

  • dragnet

    @ Susan

    “However, as has been discussed here before, quite a few guys express a desire to have sex with 21 year olds, but not to marry them or even date them seriously.”

    Only because we have culture that has render 20-21 year old girls completely useless and immature. There are plenty of guys who would consider marrying these girls if they weren’t reading Cosmo, glued to their iPhones, slutting it up, and able to hold a decent conversation about something other than their last shopping trip.

    Guys would be more serious about these girls, if we raising girls to be serious at shit at younger ages.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet

      Guys would be more serious about these girls, if we raising girls to be serious at shit at younger ages.

      OK, but we also now have academics formally revising the definition of male adolescence to age 26. For every girl reading Cosmo, there’s a guy doing something equally unproductive, if somewhat less culturally repulsive. It’s pretty clear that young people in general are maturing much later than they did a generation ago.

  • Ramble

    I have no idea if maternal age of 28 is correlated with low birth rate, autism, un-descended testes and all the other stuff you listed, but I doubt it.

    I do not have the references on hand at the moment, but from what I have read, the fertility/healthy-baby combo starts going downhill after 26. It is not rapid, but significant enough that,
    1.) It should be mentioned, and
    2.) it keeps getting worse each year after 26.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    ” “However, as has been discussed here before, quite a few guys express a desire to have sex with 21 year olds, but not to marry them or even date them seriously.””

    I think feminism’s shaming of age-gap relationships is at least partly to blame here. Mid-20’s guys have been brainwashed that if they desire a younger woman they are dirty and patriarchal. It’s a shame, because a lot of those couples could be successful marriages if one or both of them got past the false idea that their relationship is wrong.

  • Mike

    @Susan 59

    It may be that once a woman is out of school for a couple of years, she’ll be fine – 24—–>34. I don’t know. I know a bunch of young women doing OKCupid right now – all 21-23, and they’re getting a ton of responses from guys 23 and 24, but very few from guys 30+. I do think guys self-segregate to some degree on this.

    There are filters on okc that state up front what age range you’re looking for. most girls in their early 20’s only go up 5-7 years tops. I know.. i’m one of those dirtbags looking for young girls HA. anyways.. once you see you’re not in their range, you can still try and send a message, but it will warn the receiver that the sender does not match her current filter criteria and she may delete it without ever reading it.

    just an fyi.

  • deti

    @ dragnet:

    “Only because we have culture that has render 20-21 year old girls completely useless and immature. There are plenty of guys who would consider marrying these girls if they weren’t reading Cosmo, glued to their iPhones, slutting it up, and able to hold a decent conversation about something other than their last shopping trip.”

    How things have changed. Twenty years ago, the 21 year old women I knew were college seniors, getting ready to graduate. Most had jobs lined up. Many were engaged to be married. They were serious about life (their careers, mostly). This was also in the era before cellphones, texting, the internet, Facebook and the ubiquitous Louis Vuitton handbag.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #45 ted,

    people in relationships need common VALUES, but not really common interests or shared life references. so i grew up watching family ties, and she didn’t — who cares. those are all just excuses created by the feminist agenda, and if we stop to think and think for a moment, the fact that they are just excuses becomes quite obvious.

    #58 hope,

    you are right, of course. take a STEM nerd, give him a cute girl, and he is downright READY to settle down. he doesn’t know any better.

    you are also sharp to observe that a lot of girls posting here are with STEM men — and in fact, one of my sisters is married to a STEM guy, and he is a great husband.

    so yeah, maybe that is the “best” answer — except it goes against SO MUCH of female instinct, it really does fight the female natural tendency to “go alpha”. not that all STEM men are beta, but you know what i mean.

    and finally, i also think you are right, many of the “good” or at least “better” men are already married by their early 30s — but that is the current generation. i think that for the new generation, this won’t be the case. i think the whereas the “best” men of my generation got married at 24-28, the best men of the next generation will get married at 28-32, something like that.

    #59 susan,

    if it is self selection, i think that mostly comes from the feminist shaming which is incredibly strong in our society.

    however, i am also guessing that these women aged 21-23 put on their profiles that they wanted men aged 21-28 or so, i doubt that they clicked the box for men in their 30s — thinking of course that these men must be gross and perverted — so that is much more likely whey these girls didn’t get replies from older men.

    actually, now that i think about it, these girls — including your daughter, right? — you should do a quick survey and ask THEM their thoughts about dating a man ten years older. their candid, unfiltered, instant reactions to this proposal.

    it would be VERY interesting to hear their thoughts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rivelino

      actually, now that i think about it, these girls — including your daughter, right? — you should do a quick survey and ask THEM their thoughts about dating a man ten years older. their candid, unfiltered, instant reactions to this proposal.

      it would be VERY interesting to hear their thoughts.

      I do have one tidbit I can share. My daughter, who is 22, was recently asked out at a college alumni event by a 34 year old guy. When she told me I thought it was great, but my husband disapproved. He thought it was too vast an age difference, and that a man that age should be looking for women closer to his own age. So I guess Mr. HUS has bought into the feminist shaming.

  • Ramble

    It’s pretty clear that young people in general are maturing much later than they did a generation ago.

    Exactly how mature do you want those guys to be?

    That is, a guy who is more likely to be admonished by teachers for being “disruptive”, less likely to be admitted to a 4 year college, less likely to be employed at 22, more likely to be laid off if employed (i.e. the Mancession), more likely to make less money at that age if employed, more likely to be raped in divorce court, more likely to lose custody of his children, more likely to…well, you get the idea.

    Men, as far as I can tell, are reacting to an environment. But, attempting to lead a life that would make marriage a possibility at 25 is simply not going to happen for most in this environment.

    Susan, what kind of home could some 25 year old guy afford in Brookline or Washington DC? And, if DC, could he or would he raise a child in that neighborhood?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Exactly how mature do you want those guys to be?

      I don’t want them to be anything. I have no agenda on that score, and am not intending to shame men. I’m simply observing that for a variety of reasons, apparently, both sexes are maturing into weighty responsibilities later than they once did.

  • Olive

    Ramble,

    Whenever these discussions come up it is only fertility that gets mentioned and rarely anything else.

    The good news is I took a graduate-level seminar in Maternal and Child Health this past semester, and we talked about the risks you mentioned quite a bit! The seminar seemed to focus a lot on global health, so we also talked about the risks of giving birth when you’re 14 (rather common in some developing countries). But you are correct. That’s actually the number 1 reason I’d prefer to start having babies in approx. 5 years… I don’t want to try to have kids after 35, when the risks for birth defects significantly increase. I also want to have 2 or 3 kids, so starting when I’m 32 and trying to have that many kids in 3 years would be ridiculous.

    Unfortunately I was born with some birth defects (hearing loss, 2 thumbs on my left hand, slightly deformed ears, another more serious defect that I’d rather not mention) sooo having a kid will be a medical risk for me, period. Thanks genes.

  • Ted D

    “quite a few guys express a desire to have sex with 21 year olds, but not to marry them or even date them seriously. Guys seeking an LTR or even a wife want someone whose life experience is a bit closer to their own. ”

    The issue here is maturity. Guys in their 30’s are not looking for drama and fashion tips. They want a women that can have intelligent conversations on topics other than pop culture.

    I for one become VERY interested in a women after she demonstrates that she thinks about more than Jersey Shore and the latest fashions. In fact, for me it adds at least one point of SMV value. Nothing gets on my nerves as much as a young woman (or man for that matter) that can’t converse about important (or at least current/relevant) topics other than media fed crap.

    Take away? Ladies, please please PLEASE read. Not romance novels either. News, current event, politics, religion, etc. And after you read, form an opinion. You don’t have to become an expert at all, just know enough to talk a little. If you find a guy that is passionate about a specific subject, he will likely LOVE being able to “educate” you if you only know the basics. In fact, it will go a LONG way towards making those early awkward conversations (in early dating) much less so.

    This is exactly how I handle sports. I know enough to be able to participate in those “manly” football conversations, but I spend most of my time listening and adding commentary. Of course, it helps that I live in Steeler country! (sorry, had to plug the home team!)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Take away? Ladies, please please PLEASE read. Not romance novels either. News, current event, politics, religion, etc. And after you read, form an opinion.

      I will happily second this.

  • Prost

    “It’s pretty clear that young people in general are maturing much later than they did a generation ago.”
    and hitting puberty at younger ages?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “It’s pretty clear that young people in general are maturing much later than they did a generation ago.”
      and hitting puberty at younger ages?

      Yes! Earlier physical development, later emotional development.

  • J

    Those of you in your 20s can have marriage and a family if you want it, but you can’t have it all. My generation of feminists lied to you about that.

    Hi Susan–Respectfully speaking, this is a little ironic coming from you, a woman who, if she doesn’t have it all, still has most of it. You have two kids, a loving husband, what you describe as a lovely home in a UMC neighborhood and a Wharton MBA (?, if I recall correctly.) You’ve pretty much achieved the “feminist” dream of our generation.
    As you may remember from when I used to post here often, I had quite a struggle with infertility and miscarriage, but I still ended up with a family situation that is pretty similar to yours. If this dream was all a lie, you and I are living it..and as far as I can tell, enjoying it. At least I am.
    While IRL I do tell young women my infertility story as a cautionary tale, my happy ending also belies the point I am trying to make. The very presence of women in my community who continued to practice law or medicine while raising two or more kids further belies the point. (Hell, even at this point in MY life, I envy those women their ability to balance it all.)
    Young women need to know the facts about declining fertility, but the negative rhetoric that surrounds this issue is counter-productive. The truth isn’t that you can’t have it all; try and you’ll end up a childless cat lady. It’s more like not everyone gets it all, and most of us don’t get it all at the same time. A very fortunate and hardworking few do “get it all;” many more get most/ a lot; some get a little; a few get nothing. Some lucky breaks and lot of careful planning and awareness will get you quite a bit. It’s when people try to say something different that honesty about the number looks like a “scare tactic.” Hence the backlash.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Good to see you. Let me clarify. When I said “have it all” I meant family and career. In fact, I left the workforce in 1989, never to return. I did so because my son was not thriving or happy in child care. So I went with family. My husband and I made the decision together and I have no regrets. That Wharton MBA was an unwise investment as it turns out.

      As it happens, I broke with the feminists when I made that choice. It’s no secret that most feminist activists today are not mothers, much less wives. They really aren’t invested in women’s family responsibilities. That’s why real information about fertility has been suppressed. It is more important to feminists that women work than raise a family. Much, much more important. When Stevenson and Wolfers found that women are much unhappier than they were in 1970, the feminists were all over them with accusations, but it’s very clear that women in our generation who tried to have big careers and raise children wound up forfeiting one thing or the other. They either stepped off the track, as I did, or hired someone else to raise their kids. I wasn’t surprised when, at my 25th Wharton reunion, the female heavy hitters were mostly unmarried and none had kids. The female grads with families were all doing interesting things, but of their own design, like I do here. The same is true of the Harvard Business School women’s group I’m in. Out of two dozen women, only 3 women with kids at home are working full time. Do the women lawyers and doctors you know work full time? Because I know a bunch too and they’ve all gone independent, scaled back from the ER to a college health office, or something along those lines, finances permitting.

      Young women need to know the facts about declining fertility, but the negative rhetoric that surrounds this issue is counter-productive.

      But that’s the problem. Young women don’t know the facts. We have sex ed programs that introduce fisting, but we don’t tell women what their reproductive cycle is. The backlash is from a special interest group that wants women in boardrooms instead of maternity wards.

      As for negative rhetoric, Ms. Collura explained how very angry and betrayed infertile women feel. Key information about their health was hidden from them.

  • Ramble

    J,
    Sometimes, the grass on the other side really is greener.

  • Escoffier

    “From Moe the bartender: The older they get, the cuter they ain’t.”

    Actually Aunt Patty.

  • Ted D

    @ J – “The very presence of women in my community who continued to practice law or medicine while raising two or more kids further belies the point. (Hell, even at this point in MY life, I envy those women their ability to balance it all.)”

    For one, Susan doesn’t work and has been a stay at home mother for some time. So, she “doesn’t have it all” because successful career (no dig Susan) isn’t on her list.

    And, just because some women “balance” life and work, doesn’t mean there wasn’t a cost. Someone has to be with the children. If mom and dad work, and other family cannot be there, then childcare gets “outsourced” to strangers. Do you truly believe that a stranger taking money has your child’s best interests at heart?

    I still believe that no one (man or woman) can have it all, nor should they even try. Instead, both should look at their possible choices early in life (I’d suggest before wasting money on a useless degree) and decide what they want to be “when they grow up”, and then work toward that goal. In short, we need to stop allowing childish behavior to linger past the late teens. AT 22, you should be know what you want out of life and be well on your way to getting there. You should also realize by then that you will NOT get everything, and to even get some of it you WILL need to compromise.

  • Olive

    Of course, it helps that I live in Steeler country! (sorry, had to plug the home team!)

    LOL it’s hard to live in Steelers land when you’re an Eagles fan. And yes, the BF has already made fun of the Dream Team’s terrible losing record this year several times to my face. :-P

    Re: Marrying an older guy
    I’ve actually thought about this quite a bit, and I’ve decided if I was ever back on the market, I’d go for guys in their early 30s. My BF is quite a gem, very mature and level headed, but most guys my age seem like they’re still stuck in freshman year of college. There’s this 25-year-old guy who works for my dad, and he disgusts me. He doesn’t talk about anything except banging chicks, drinking, and smoking. Yes, even around his boss’s daughter. Not attractive.

  • Isabel

    Deti,

    I’ve known a couple of women over 36 who tried this. For most, a couple of rounds and $2o K later, no viable pregnancy. It’s very sad, really. And high risk, and high expense. At that rate she’s better off trying to adopt.

    That’s sad. Especially once you consider that simply making marriage a priority before 26 could have redirected that lost 20K towards her would-be sons and daughters. The adoption system is ridiculously rigged too so I wouldn’t bank on that either. A few weeks back, there was a whole fuss about A+ host families who were barred from adopting for being “too white”, “too middle-class” or for smoking once in the garden during a visit (passive smoking … derp derp).
    So, on the whole, I think there’s little to no leeway for childless, unmarried women over 40. They are all pretty stuck. That said, I noticed that a lot of the girls I know are splitting themselves into visible camps now. Some are doing career then kids whilst the smaller group are opting for kids and then, possibly, a career after.

    As to the college ratio, in the US fewer men attend college. When I went 25 years ago it was more equivalent almost 1:1 men to women. Now it’s approaching 60% women. I gather there are a lot of reasons for this: a lot of men either don’t see the value in a college education, or don’t succeed at it when they try, or can’t afford it, or see bleak economic prospects whether they attend college or not so they simply don’t put forth the effort. It’s still true that people regardless of gender earn more with a college degree than without. So if women have more education and the resultant increased earning power, that puts most of them at higher status than most of the men they come in regular contact with. them at higher status than most of the men they come in regular contact with.

    Yikes. Well, that’s just the way it will have to be then. Unless I’m missing something, all the possible solutions are not exactly what I’d call equitable or kind.

    Rivelino,

    but that IS the answer. the feminists are wrong, once again. i’ve said it several times.

    How? You do realise that pre-feminism, most women still married within or near their age group? And that one look at historical records (biggest one being WWI) and town halls would disprove this feminist machination to deprive men of young fanny? They called it assortative for a reason. Anyway. A man who deliberately avoids and dodges marriage in favour of the carousel for over a decade isn’t really a man to prioritise. Particularly ones who go into matrimony solely for the prospect of “exclusively banging a hot 24 year old”.

    The cream of the crop is gone by 30.

  • Escoffier

    Yeah, “balance” is a joke. If you have to work because it’s that or starvation, that’s one thing. But doctors and lawyers with husbands almost certainly never face this. They are doing it because they want to for whatever reason. That means they have to outsource the raising of their children in very large measure.

    So, no, you cannot “have it all” if that is defined as high powered UMC career + being primary caregiver (i.e., mommy) to your kids.

    Sorry.

  • Ted D

    Olive – sorry about your luck this year. :P

    I agree. I haven’t talked about men’s lack of maturity, but I think it is pretty well established. That being said, I don’t see a lot of incentive for guys to improve. I mean, the real goal of “growing up” is to get a great job (good luck in this economy), find a wife (we know this isn’t easy since we are all here…), buy a house (prices are great, but without a job not easy to attain), and raise a family. (that we all know can be easily destroyed by divorce) So unless a young man wants to achieve these things for himself, he has little incentive to do anything at all other than exist.

    Give men a reason to care and the security to know his investment will pay off, and you won’t find so many 25 year old men acting like college freshmen.

  • jlw

    One group for whom this is not bad news is omega males, the single largest segment of the population that no one has ever studied or written about. Shut out of the market for women they can feel attracted to, they dwell in a stratum far below the drama described above. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  • deti

    @ Susan:

    “Of course, women may choose to marry men with less education than themselves, but this seems unlikely to happen in large numbers for several reasons:

    Women generally prefer men with equal or higher status.
    Men generally prefer women with equal or lower status.
    Society is stratified by socioeconomic status. ”

    Women basically are attracted to confidence and dominance. You’ve also said, Susan, that women’s attraction triggers are malleable. Maybe women will have to learn to be attracted to male attributes other than educational level, income and SES.

    It looks like your theory is about to be tested in one huge experiment on a grand scale, with the unmarried US population under age 30 as the test cohort.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Maybe women will have to learn to be attracted to male attributes other than educational level, income and SES.

      I think they will have to. I expect this to be reflected in the culture. We’ve already got Kate Bolick getting a TV show. I can already see the sitcom where the Pulitzer prize winning journalist marries Joe the Plumber.

      It looks like your theory is about to be tested in one huge experiment on a grand scale, with the unmarried US population under age 30 as the test cohort.

      Yes. What remains to be seen is whether the next generation of women will have more self-awareness and future time orientation than the current one.

  • Ted D

    Isabel – That may be the case in recent history, but as time goes on you will find more men in their 30’s that have not yet married. And, although right now that group may not be the best to choose from, as the ranks grow selection will be much better.

    Unless my son finds a real gem, I’m going to suggest he puts off marriage until his late 20’s or early 30’s and then look for a younger but mature woman to start a family with. My thinking is: He will be in a much better position once he is established to select a better mate. That is provided all the remaining women are not carousel riders… And THAT is why I will suggest he find a younger woman: to snag her before she rides too long.

  • dragnet

    @ Susan

    “OK, but we also now have academics formally revising the definition of male adolescence to age 26. For every girl reading Cosmo, there’s a guy doing something equally unproductive, if somewhat less culturally repulsive.”

    Yes, but men are putting off maturing because women are. In previous iterations of Western society, boys didn’t suddenly decide to “man up” at age 20, get a job, get married and take care of a family just because. They did this because the girls were getting married young and they had no choice. Once this stopped happening, there was no reason for men not to extend their adolescence.

    I’m not totally blaming frivolous women for this–a lot of this can be chalked up to the pill and the wonderful economic cushion particular to being raised in an advanced industrial democracy. The point is that the choices women as a demographic are direct predictors of the choices men will make as a demographic.

    For these reasons, I can’t buy your argument.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @dragnet

      The point is that the choices women as a demographic are direct predictors of the choices men will make as a demographic.

      Yes, I can see this. At least, it makes me think of the sex cartel – when women en masse weren’t putting out, men got married much sooner.

  • Ted D

    I agree Dragnet. I’m not sure which is chicken and which is the egg, but I’m pretty sure that men will not step up until women do. Frankly, they don’t have to.

  • Olive

    Ted,
    Yeah I actually agree with you. I don’t think guys my age were always so immature. To be honest I think Rivelino is recommending girls marry older guys because HE wants to get with a 24 year old and he’s 36 if I remember correctly. So. His reasoning is based in his own self-interest most likely.

    That being said, my dad is 12 years older than my mom and it really seems to have worked out for them, and they married back in ’81. So who knows, maybe it’s a good idea.

  • J

    Hi Hope,

    A second pregnancy loss? I am so terribly sorry to hear this.

    I am scared that I won’t be able to have a healthy baby. This year I had a stillbirth almost at term and a miscarriage due to chromosomal issues.

    I can surely understand your feelings, but don’t give up just yet. Miscarriages like yours happen very frequently, even among younger women. If I remember a conversation that I had with my infertility doc, something like 2/3 fertilized embryos do not result in live births due to chromosonal issues. Most spontaneously abort before mom even realizes she’s pregnant. So much can go wrong that it’s a miracle that any of us are here. Baby Liam’s death, so tragic, seems sort of random to me, not like something that would repeat itself.

    I don’t drink, smoke or do drugs, not on any prescription medication, exercise, eat healthily, 19 BMI, no risk factors, no family history of miscarriages, and so it’s hard to hear that my chances are much lower than just 5 years ago.

    Your chances are lower statistically but not necessarily individually. If I weere to read a year from now that you had a healthy baby, I would be completely unsurprised. All the positive things you list are still working in your favor and since you have gotten pregnant in the past, I would assume that you still can.

    At the time I had my older son, I had a history of social drinking, was a former smoker, was dependent on two prescription medications including thyroid hormone–the lack of which affects fertility, exercised sporadically, ate somewhat unhealthily, had several risk factors related to age, and a history of miscarriages and of endometriosis (like Grerp). The odds were really against me, but today I have two healthy and (dare I say) gifted soms whose birth bracketed my 40th birthday. It was a long hard slog, but I did it. I’d say that your odds are considerably better than mine were, so I have little doubt that you’ll eventually have the family you want. It just isn’t always pretty getting there.

    FWIW, my heart goes out to you. It’s horrendously tough, but hang in there.

  • http://oldtimemoviereview.blogspot.com Jamie

    Susan said: “but you can’t have it all. My generation of feminists lied to you about that.”

    At least someone admits it finally. An apology would be nice.

    It has been unfashionable for Millennials to admit that they desire marriage. Especially for boys. I don’t think I have ever heard a guy in my age group express a desire to marry (with the exception of Mormons). I have heard the phrase “I never want to get married.” more often than I can count. Some girls won’t admit it no matter how desperately they really want it, I think, because of the anti-marriage posturing they don’t consider it a possiblility. By the time boys our age finally come around, we’re too old. I’m 26 and it doesn’t look like the boys my age are coming around anytime soon.

    Personally, I’d love to be married and grow old with someone. (and it freaks me out to admit that.) Fortunately, I have a bit more time since I don’t ever want to be pregnant.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan said: “but you can’t have it all. My generation of feminists lied to you about that.”

      At least someone admits it finally. An apology would be nice.

      FWIW I’m sorry. But it’s actually my generation that learned the hard way – our mothers (and fathers) were the ones who had high expectations for our intellectual and professional development.

  • Olive

    Deti,

    Women basically are attracted to confidence and dominance. You’ve also said, Susan, that women’s attraction triggers are malleable. Maybe women will have to learn to be attracted to male attributes other than educational level, income and SES.

    Yeah especially as the education gender gap widens, women will really need to start considering men who aren’t as educated. I have a friend in grad school who’s dating a guy who didn’t graduate high school. Dunno how that relationship will work out, but so far it seems to be going well.

  • Ramble

    Some girls won’t admit it no matter how desperately they really want it …

    Christ, I have been saying that forever.

  • Ramble

    So I guess Mr. HUS has bought into the feminist shaming.

    Well, he married a ONS, does not ask you about your past, raised an independent daughter and a beta son and now this, so…maybe.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, he married a ONS, does not ask you about your past, raised an independent daughter and a beta son and now this, so…maybe.

      Haha, I think I’ll toast his next birthday with this!

  • Olive

    Susan,

    When she told me I thought it was great, but my husband disapproved. He thought it was too vast an age difference, and that a man that age should be looking for women closer to his own age.

    That’s pretty funny, it reminds me of my dad. When I was around 18, I always used to joke I was going to bring home a 30-year-old (that’s how old my parents were when they started dating) and my dad was like “yeah, over my dead body.” He also used to say that my mom’s parents were crazy for letting her marry him. It’s pretty funny, IDK if it’s buying into feminism or if it’s just a father’s reaction to the idea of his daughter dating an older man. It seems to be the latter in my dad’s case, since, I mean, he DID bring home a teenager at the age of 30.

  • Chris_in_CA

    Ahh. Pardon me, but this sort of news just brings a relaxing smile to my face.

    “If you know you want to marry and have a family, you must plan for it. Husbands and babies don’t fall from trees.”

    Some good advice there. Let me contribute a few cents.

    Ladies, some other things to keep in mind if you are marriage-minded:
    –“Trapping” a man is despicable and you will be left alone anyway. (Just heading off that mindset before it rears its ugly head.)
    –Your job is made much more difficult due to divorce laws, alimony laws, and false accusations. Be aware. A flippant NAWALT assurance is not enough to wash those away.
    –Be also aware that that 12% who say they “don’t want to marry” – is growing too.

    @Ramble

    The average girl in America gets married AFTER her fertility has started to decline.

    Damn straight. I’ve heard a childless 38-year-old woman talk about “having a baby in 1 or 2 years.” So deluded it’s laughable.

    I’m glad this sting is being felt now. Frankly, I hope it gets worse. Then my nephews might – MIGHT – have a chance at a decent relationship in 10+ years.

    P.S. – Ted D @76 is bang-on point too. Some of the topics “discussed” in a social group I attend are boring to the point of walking away. Grown women, college-educated, talking about movies or fashion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Who was looking for schadenfreude? It’s Chris at 4:07 pm

  • deti

    Olive:

    A man’s education, income and SES connote higher status, but also the ability to provide.

    We already know that women are attracted to male physical appearance, talent, outward displays of confidence and dominance, and other “alpha attributes” triggers for sex and the “tingle”.

    Query whether women will find these sufficient to sustain an LTR or marriage with possibly the women as primary breadwinners and, at the very least, having to continue working and contributing to the family income. The initial returns weren’t very promising (for example, read Sandra Tsing Loh’s articles and her references to her husband as a “kitchen bitch”; and women’s loss of attraction at having househusbands).

    Like I said, this is about to be tested on a grand scale, I think.

  • J

    Hi Ted/Escoffier,

    Susan and I go back a ways, so we are familiar with each other’s life goals and patterns. And mine is so similar to hers, including a long hiatus from career to be a SAHM, that I’m sure she knows that I wasn’t criticizing her choice.

    Interesting that both of you jumped to that though, especially since my original comment referenced that she and I were coming from roughly the same place…

    As to full time professional moms being poor moms, I’ve known some great professional moms and some rather self-absorbed ones, but I’ve also known women with no professional aspirations who spent more time on their soap operas than their kids. Good and bad moms come in many varieties. I do envy the competence of women I see who can keep a lot balls in the air. I just knew that, at the advanced age I had my kids, I wasn’t going to be one of them.

  • deti

    @ SW: “My daughter, who is 22, was recently asked out at a college alumni event by a 34 year old guy. When she told me I thought it was great, but my husband disapproved. He thought it was too vast an age difference, and that a man that age should be looking for women closer to his own age ***”

    Hmmm. It’s just a date. No harm, really.

    You didn’t say if she wanted to go. Did she?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      You didn’t say if she wanted to go. Did she?

      She was open to the idea. She thought he was attractive. She did want to know if he’d been married already, though. She didn’t want to date someone who had been divorced. Hardly surprising at her age.

      In the end, though, it was all moot, because after making all his smooth moves and getting her number she never heard from him. So she dodged a bullet. I’d bet he was pure alpha cad.

  • Olive

    It has been unfashionable for Millennials to admit that they desire marriage.

    Yeah I heard the most outrageous story the other day about one of my classmates who’s had the same BF for 5 years. She said she won’t marry him for the next 5 years because she wants to work for a few years first and keep living off her parents’ moolah (they currently pay her rent). I was like wtf? If I was that dude I wouldn’t stick around. Especially the parents’ money part screams entitlement.

  • Escoffier

    J, it’s just a fact that, in a 24 hour day, you are going to sleep for roughly 8. That leaves 16. If you work, kiss goodbye to at least 10 more and for a UMC career woman, 12 and up is not uncommon (when you factor in morning primping and commutes).

    So someone else has to be with your kids. You physically cannot. Now, in the time that you have, you can be good with them or not on a sliding scale. But the brute fact is, someone else is delivering the bulk of the care. In a decisive sense, that someone else is “mommy.”

    The only way to fix this would be by manipulating temporal mechanics to allow you to be in two places at the same time. Geordi LaForge and Data could spend decades on that project and not come up with a solution.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The only way to fix this would be by manipulating temporal mechanics to allow you to be in two places at the same time.

      More women are becoming small business owners and working at home. My kids are grown, but I could definitely write this blog with little ones. Not as intensely perhaps, but I could do it. What I did some over the years was freelance, working as a subcontractor when the opportunity arose.

  • Olive

    Query whether women will find these sufficient to sustain an LTR or marriage with possibly the women as primary breadwinners and, at the very least, having to continue working and contributing to the family income. The initial returns weren’t very promising (for example, read Sandra Tsing Loh’s articles and her references to her husband as a “kitchen bitch”; and women’s loss of attraction at having househusbands).

    Like I said, this is about to be tested on a grand scale, I think.

    Yeah it’s a really interesting issue. I’m about to have a higher level of education than my BF (dual masters degrees, while he’ll only have a bachelors when he graduates in May), so we’re about to test this out too. He’s actually said he wouldn’t mind being a stay at home dad. I don’t find that idea revolting, the only problem is I’m the one who has to carry the babies in my womb, so he’d certainly have to work during my pregnancy if we end up getting hitched. Also that puts the pressure on me, I better not just have a shitty social work job or we’ll have trouble. I don’t have any qualms about his ability to provide, though. He’s very hardworking, very smart, says he might consider grad school in applied statistics in the future. We’ll see, we’re both still kids in many ways, so nothing is set in stone.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    Here’s my take on the college gender disparity:
    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/how-will-they-find-husbands/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Private Man

      From your post:

      Here’s a thoroughly revolutionary concept: Keep the dames out of college. Yeah, I said it.

      That final bit caused quite a stir among some women in the blogosphere. I was on board until then, but yikes, eliminating the competition to get men into college is not going to fly in a global economy, even if I didn’t find the suggestion sexist.

  • J

    He thought it was too vast an age difference, and that a man that age should be looking for women closer to his own age. So I guess Mr. HUS has bought into the feminist shaming.

    In the past year, I have had opportunities to discuss arranged marriages with both a Hindu woman and a Lubavitch Chasid. Both told me that an age gap of more than 10 years in generally avoided in matchmaking and that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote the Jewish equivalent of an encyclical opposing large age gaps. Some very traditional cultures agree with Mr. HUS.

    My parents were 9 years apart. My dad’s final years and eventual death were very hard on my mom. She probably died 5-7 years earlier than she might have had he been alive and healthy. It seems like marrying a much older man is virtually signing up for that.

  • Ramble

    We’ve already got Kate Bolick getting a TV show. I can already see the sitcom where the Pulitzer prize winning journalist marries Joe the Plumber.

    Wouldn’t the sitcom be better if Joe liked the “accomplished journalist”, but married her younger, hotter niece?

  • Isabel

    I doubt that, Ted. The only way that could ever become the norm is if something catasthrophic happens to society, and fathers are forced to marry their daughters off out of necessity. It’s just disingenuous to say that it’s due to feminist propaganda or whatever because it is historically inaccurate. 20 year old unmarried women were considered old maids and it would have been highly shameful for a man to unmarried at 30-35. Girls married after the first two years of menarche to 19 year old “men” and that was that. Also, present non-feminist countries still engage in peer-matching. The age gap arose primarily – if not exclusively – out of the female inability to provide for themselves. If we’re talking about women currently out-learning and soon out-earning men, then it simply loses ground. So I hope you can see why I’m wary anyone who claims otherwise without proof.

    Unless my son finds a real gem, I’m going to suggest he puts off marriage until his late 20′s or early 30′s and then look for a younger but mature woman to start a family with. My thinking is: He will be in a much better position once he is established to select a better mate. That is provided all the remaining women are not carousel riders… And THAT is why I will suggest he find a younger woman: to snag her before she rides too long.

    Fair enough. Am I allowed to point out that something 20-30% of young women are still virgins and that another goodly chunk is still relatively chaste? And that we don’t all worship at the heeled feet of St. Kartrashian?

    Fml.

  • Ramble

    Yes, I can see this. At least, it makes me think of the sex cartel – when women en masse weren’t putting out, men got married much sooner.

    Which is why slut shaming was so important to previous generations of women. It was good for themselves and their daughters (and sons).

  • Chris_in_CA

    @Susan

    Yep, saw that too. John G, it looks like.

    Figured I’d get a little in at a low level, since the discussion is vibrant. Wanted to contribute to it, not accidentally derail it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris in CA

      Yeah, it’s fair. I have personally derived great enjoyment from schadenfreude over the years. I can’t in all good conscience blame men for feeling it.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #82 olive

    “Re: Marrying an older guy. I’ve actually thought about this quite a bit, and I’ve decided if I was ever back on the market, I’d go for guys in their early 30s.”

    smart girl.

    #83 isabel

    “How? You do realise that pre-feminism, most women still married within or near their age group? And that one look at historical records (biggest one being WWI) and town halls would disprove this feminist machination to deprive men of young fanny? They called it assortative for a reason.”

    let’s see data. i find that hard to believe. a man was supposed to provide for his wife. much easier to do if he is significantly older.

    “A man who deliberately avoids and dodges marriage in favour of the carousel for over a decade isn’t really a man to prioritise. Particularly ones who go into matrimony solely for the prospect of ‘exclusively banging a hot 24 year old’. ”

    isabel, you don’t understand men. i am a man. you should listen to me if you want insight into the male psyche.

    a man can want to fuck a lot of girls in his 20s, and then find a girl to adore in his 30s. completely normal. healthy, even.

    #91 olive

    “To be honest I think Rivelino is recommending girls marry older guys because HE wants to get with a 24 year old and he’s 36 if I remember correctly. So. His reasoning is based in his own self-interest most likely.”

    very true, i just wrote the same thing on my blog. i have a massive crush on a 24 year old girl right now, and i am 36, and i keep on having these stupid crazy idea of marrying her and running off with her.

    so i definitely have “an agenda” when i recommend this, but i believe in this case, my agenda only proves my point.

    #95 susan

    “So I guess Mr. HUS has bought into the feminist shaming.”

    i think you’re right! i think you should press him on this subject. maybe he can even write a blog post about his thoughts.

    #100 ramble

    “Well, he married a ONS, does not ask you about your past, raised an independent daughter and a beta son and now this, so…maybe.”

    exactly.

    and yeah, what was your DAUGHTER’S reaction to being asked out by a 34 year old man?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      isabel, you don’t understand men. i am a man. you should listen to me if you want insight into the male psyche.

      Ha! Isabel, be warned, that is one complicated male.

      i think you’re right! i think you should press him on this subject. maybe he can even write a blog post about his thoughts.

      How beta would that be? That’s not going to happen, Mr. HUS qualifying himself here. Unh unh.

  • Malia

    … how very angry and betrayed infertile women feel. Key information about their health was hidden from them.

    In my experience I don’t find that key health information is “hidden”, rather I find that women aren’t listening. Feminists may have a vested interest in suppressing knowledge, but gynecologists do not. I find that all the information is there, and is readily accessible, and also there are women (and doctors) who will honestly tell you (as you are) but that a lot of women just.do.not.want.to.hear.it.

    Should I count (like the previous poster) the number of mid-to-late thirties women that I know who want “more than one” child who have no child currently AND no boyfriend/husband. Or the approaching 40s who still want kids and think because they are in good shape (i.e. thin) that they will just be able to “have it like that”.

    I’m not buying it. It’s like when obese people cry “no one told me that fast food was this bad for me.” Like really? Some people just don’t want to be held accountable for not taking control (and accountability) of choices they made, that have long term affects. It’s easier to play victim, innocent, or ignorance.

    Modern women have a vested interest in living in fantasy and fairy tale.

    I’m not throwing any shade at women who grappled with infertility, but I’ve found that “I should have paid more attention to this (taken it more seriously)” is the more truthful sentiment than “this was hidden from me”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Malia

      That’s a fair point. Every woman sees her OB/GYN annually (or should) – all she has to do is ask the simple question. I think part of the reason they don’t want to hear it is because like the woman in the article said, if you find out that you’re reaching an age when your fertility is waning, and you’re not even done with medical school or whatever, one feels powerless. It’s already too late. We need to get this information out to college aged women. The tick tock should be audible for women the moment they finish college, and it should inform all of their choices if they want to have a family.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #117 susan

    “She was open to the idea. She thought he was attractive. She did want to know if he’d been married already, though. She didn’t want to date someone who had been divorced. Hardly surprising at her age.”

    yeah, at 22 i can see her wanting “fresh new love”, but divorced men truly are the best bet as far as “older men” go. past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. if he was such a romantic that he got married before, it is much more likely that he will want to get married again.

    obviously, kids would be a deal breaker.

    and yes olive, i say that because i have no kids :-)

    so susan, let’s talk more about your daughter. she is single i take it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Rivelino said:

      yeah, at 22 i can see her wanting “fresh new love”, but divorced men truly are the best bet as far as “older men” go.

      Is anyone surprised that Rivelino is a protege of Doug1?

  • deti

    “In the end, though, it was all moot, because after making all his smooth moves and getting her number she never heard from him. So she dodged a bullet. I’d bet he was pure alpha cad.”

    Heh. doesn’t matter. Dad said no, so that’s the end of it!

    .

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #129 susan

    “Isabel, be warned”

    yeah isabel, watch out. i am a bad and i am dangerous. you DEFINITELY do not want to get to know me.

  • Olive

    very true, i just wrote the same thing on my blog. i have a massive crush on a 24 year old girl right now, and i am 36, and i keep on having these stupid crazy idea of marrying her and running off with her.

    so i definitely have “an agenda” when i recommend this, but i believe in this case, my agenda only proves my point.

    Haha I saw that, and laughed a little. Maybe it’s because you live in Spain, but I’d argue that most 23-24 year old American girls are not mature enough for a guy in his 30s. Though from your writing, if I didn’t know you were 36, I’d guess you were in your early 20s (i.e. you kind of remind me of a kid sometimes), so maybe it would work out for you. :-P

    Also see Susan’s comment at 117:

    She didn’t want to date someone who had been divorced. Hardly surprising at her age.

    Yeah so I said I’d maybe go after guys in their early 30s, but did not say I would go for divorced guys in their early 30s. If I only knew that a guy was divorced, but didn’t know the specifics, that would set off serious alarm bells for me. Having said that, I know the story of Mike’s divorce (sad friggin’ story) and I have no trouble recommending he go for a younger girl in her 20s (he’s 35). So, depends on the circumstances.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    ” Here’s a thoroughly revolutionary concept: Keep the dames out of college. Yeah, I said it.

    That final bit caused quite a stir among some women in the blogosphere. I was on board until then, but yikes, eliminating the competition to get men into college is not going to fly in a global economy, even if I didn’t find the suggestion sexist.”

    No more sexist than affirmative action quotas used previously to get more women into colleges. It’s just flipping the gender narrative, nothing more.

    Of course that final comment caused a stir, it’s because its’ a valid policy to adopt – affirmation action for men to restore the gender balance in higher education. What’s wrong with that?

    I strongly suspect that college admissions officers are having a conniption of this gender imbalance so there is likely an ad hoc form of affirmative action going on behind closed doors during the application review process.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Private Man

      Of course that final comment caused a stir, it’s because its’ a valid policy to adopt – affirmation action for men to restore the gender balance in higher education. What’s wrong with that?

      Actually, nothing, IMO. The private schools already do it to a certain extent (if they can) and perhaps the public universities should consider it too. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning. It sounds like you don’t think women should go to college, period.

  • Olive

    and yes olive, i say that because i have no kids

    And what does that have to do with me? I already knew you had no kids.

  • Zach

    A couple of comments:

    As for women dating older men, I’ve given OkCupid a shot (granted, over a year ago), and almost all the women there are “looking for” men who START at their age but go up to 8-9 years older than they are. As in it’s very common to see “looking for” 24-32, 24-31, etc. I don’t think that women not marrying older men is as big a problem as it’s made out to be. Although I do know one 23 year-old girl who is dating a 38 year-old man, and it’s honestly pretty creepy. He’s balding, divorced already, and every time he shows up while we’re going to bars people start asking “who invited their uncle?”. However, I know quite a few girls dating guys 5-6 years older, and it’s not an issue or a problem.

    Another thing I see all the time, especially at nice restaurants, is gorgeous 20-something women with average, but loaded, 40-something men. The problem is that this dynamic leads most successful older men (30+) to have grave reservations about the motivations of any younger girl he is dating. How does he know she’s not just after his money? Gold digging is not uncommon and most older guys who have money are worried about it. So while older men will date younger women, this reservation will make them think 4 or 5 times before marrying (and potentially losing half their assets) to them.

    Lastly, marriage and kids are expensive! I have lived in NYC my whole life, and want to live here for the rest of my life (or another major city, maybe SF or Chicago). However, doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations, to live with 2 kids in private school in Manhattan, and live comfortably, you’re looking at $350,000 pre-tax income minimum, more likely $400,000. Not many (in fact none outside of finance, and these days not even there necessarily) 25-28 year olds are going to be pulling down that kind of money. Even if you work in management consulting/law/medicine, the three highest paying professions outside of finance, by 35 you’re doing very well making $300,000+ a year (for lawyers and consultants, making partner happens around then, but is not guaranteed). Even if you plan on relying on 2 incomes, that’s still $175,000/spouse, not chump change, especially given that many highly-educated women still go into fields like fashion, PR and marketing that don’t pay all that much. So the financial reasons are very strong (at least for men, who are still expected to be the primary provider) to wait until you’re nearer peak earning power to marry and have kids. The (rough) plan in my case is to marry at 33-35 to a woman 27-30, and have the first kid at 34-37, when my financial situation will likely be strong enough to support it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Although I do know one 23 year-old girl who is dating a 38 year-old man, and it’s honestly pretty creepy. He’s balding, divorced already, and every time he shows up while we’re going to bars people start asking “who invited their uncle?”.

      It is a little creepy that a man that age wants to barhop with kids right out of college. I would expect a very young woman dating an older man to enter his social scene.

      Zach, I think you’re dreaming if you think you can get a nice apartment and private school in Manhattan for two kids on 400K a year. That reminds me of Sherman McKoy in Bonfire of the Vanities going broke on a million dollars a year. And that was in 1988. There is constant pressure to donate, socialize and participate in various very expensive extracurriculars, etc. If you marry a professional woman making the same you can probably pull it off.

      This was actually the key reason my husband and I relocated to Boston. It’s not exactly cheap, but we could get a nice home in the city for a lot less money.

  • tvmunson

    Americans just don’t place a high a value on plumbers, mechanics, elevator repairman etc. So the option for a college educated woman with a position commensurate with her educational level marrying a tradesman type, while theoretically possible, is not realistically plausible. Picture a cocktail party; an assemblage of the usual suspects, smatterings of mid-execs, a few lawyers, doc or 2. And a guy who jerks wrenches for a living.We all want to be “classless and free” (J. Lennon)-we ain’t. He’d feel an ostracism, a chill. even if it wasn’t there.

    But the good news is as the middle class dissolves like the Fizzies Susan and I reminisced about, so will the upper middle class. The assemblage described above would have been upper middle class in my time; now, they’re really middle middle class. But it’s more than money; educated people are exposed to so much more than even they are aware of, plus they have a lazy confidence (I’ve never even seen a copy of Moby Dick, but can bullshit my way through a discussion of it so you cant’ tell plus I know even the Yale people read the Cliff’s notes; Melville’s writing was literary Tourette’s Syndrome (see!)) that someone without an education cannot attain.

    On another vein, I’m struck by something I read decades ago about the black community. a college educated woman was talking about her prospects in the neighborhood (not the ‘hood). She ticked off all the barriers to meeting the “right” black man and concluded “there can only be so many winners.” When Moynihan decried the black illegitimacy rate in the 60s, it was 40%, white was 10%. Now, black is 70+%, white is 40%. And the lack of enough “right” white guys just may be a tracking phenomenon like the illegitimacy rate-whites are catching up to something that has been going on in the black community for decades.

    Everything supports that proposition. “Play’ahs” been a feature in the black community since Moynihan spotted them. You may be surprised to know as an old white guy I’ve been aware that on black college campuses women have been complaining about datelessness for years. (I’m surprised too).

    So whites are going where blacks have already been. The synthesis of the two threads of written is that marrying “down” will not work, and the supply of eligibles is going to continue to dwindle.

    BTW I’m not saying “marrying down” won’t ever work. I just do not know, nor have I never met, in my peer group, a couple that fits that description. Susan, at the soirees you’ve attended , how many Bryn Mawr graduates and their home-pesticide-spraying husbands have you met? Honestly-we need absolute truth here. Sugar coating sweet dream bedtime stories are for your (now grown) children.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      I have never known a couple where either party was college educated and the other was working class. It happens – Matt Damon married a cocktail waitress. But I haven’t known any. I have known high powered women who have married writers, artists, etc. Remember that Bain consultant who married Clark Rockefeller? I know one HBS grad who married a librarian. But it’s unusual, and I’m not at all sure it works very well. I have the sense those men wind up cheating with other “sensitive” souls.

  • J

    Good to see you.

    You too.

    Let me clarify. When I said “have it all” I meant family and career.
    This blog isn’t a new career for you? I see it as a small business as well as a service. You have advertisers, so I assume there’s some income.

    In fact, I left the workforce in 1989, never to return. I did so because my son was not thriving or happy in child care. So I went with family. My husband and I made the decision together and I have no regrets.

    I’m feeling you there. As you may recall, I quit work becasue the thought of leavng my kid with a sitter was breaking my heart. I went to too much hell to have him to leave him with soomeone who obviously wasn’t love him like do. No real regrets on my part, just some admiration for other’s achievements.

    That Wharton MBA was an unwise investment as it turns out.

    Really? I suppose that you could have gone on to be a CEO somewhere had you wanted it, but I think we all have the choice of doing what we want with our educations. I’ve worked out of my original field and taken a lot of time off, but I don’t feel my education was a poor investment. Also, I would have thought that yourbusiness background plays a big part in the success of this blog. Not a criticism BTW as I anticipate some of your readers might interpret it. I’ve always admired how you’ve applied your business acumen to this blog.

    As it happens, I broke with the feminists when I made that choice….

    You know, I’m never really even sure what the word means anymore. When we were young, feminism was about equality and choices; things have changed. But I think you’ll agree that our educational path when we took it was perceived as feminist and that we benefitted from it. There are some who would argue that leaving the workplace was also a feminist choice, but I don’t care to get bogged down in that. The F word shuts down more honest discussion than it promotes.
    it’s very clear that women in our generation who tried to have big careers and raise children wound up forfeiting one thing or the other. They either stepped off the track, as I did, or hired someone else to raise their kids.

    A few, as I said, mananged to “have it all.” Most of us indeed needed to make choices. I’m happy to have had choices to make. I think my life, including what I have in terms of personal strengths, is better because of that. I bet you can say the same.

    The female grads with families were all doing interesting things, but of their own design, like I do here.

    Exactly. Me too. That’s why I’m grateful that I had the opportunities to develop myself that I did.

    Do the women lawyers and doctors you know work full time?

    It varies with their age, age of children, husband’s occupation and other factors.

    Because I know a bunch too and they’ve all gone independent…

    All? Really? I know a wider variety: full time lawyers with older kids, a divorcee with little kids, lawyers who’ve never practiced to lawyers changed careers but still use law in their careers, a doctor with a house husband, one with a limitied practice, a lawyer who shares a practice with her husband, etc.

    Young women don’t know the facts. We have sex ed programs that introduce fisting, but we don’t tell women what their reproductive cycle is.

    It’s a problem, but one that predates special interest groups. I could have been diagnosed with incipient endometriosis as a teenager, but a (male) doctor told my mother I just wanted to get out of gym class. You know how girls are? ;-) At any rate, I DO agree–as I said in my original post–that women have to be informed, but the cat lady talk from the commentariat is counterproductive. It causes young women to turn off and gives women with current issues bad information that may not apply to them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      This blog isn’t a new career for you? I see it as a small business as well as a service. You have advertisers, so I assume there’s some income.

      It is, sort of, and that’s quite unexpected. I never planned to start a small business at 52, lol. As I said in another comment, I couldn’t devote this kind of time to a blog with kids at home.

      Also, I would have thought that your business background plays a big part in the success of this blog.

      That’s true. And of course, I met my husband in b-school, so I don’t second guess it. It all worked out fine. I think it would be a stretch, however, to say I’d used my MBA throughout my life.

      the cat lady talk from the commentariat is counterproductive. It causes young women to turn off and gives women with current issues bad information that may not apply to them.

      Fair enough.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    “I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over. ”

    Huh, WTF? Some women are so deranged it makes my head spin. Well, actually it doesn’t anymore, I’m used to it.

    Yeah, that’s some serious feminist programming right there. Who are “they?” What are they “lumping” onto women? Does she mean God and aging?

    My reply:

    I read it to mean that women are quite often blamed for their single status. For example, the woman stated after that quote something which provides context: “Well, if I’m not dating anyone, and I want to have a family, what is that information going to do for me?”

    Not all women who want to be married are finding partners to date and marry them; so are they being blamed for not being married and for their biological clock winding down?

    In her mind, that is what is sounds like. If anything, that is what is arguably pushing single women towards the fertility specialists, and for some of them, even when they are of the age to be married and start a family! If dating is a battlefield, they would rather remove themselves and focus on what they can manage, fertility through the sperm bank.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      Yes, that makes sense. I guess I depart from her POV because women do have control over their lives, if only they will exercise it in a timely way. I’m not saying women should give up their dreams of achievement, and I’m not saying it’s easy. I think the least we can do is let women know that they’re facing tough choices.

  • deti

    My sister married a man one year older than she. He has an associate’s degree, later apprenticed and became a journeyman in a trade. She has a master’s degree and worked for a while, but then when her first child was born she started working part time as a substitute teacher.

    But I remember she specifically wanted him to finish a bachelor’s degree before they married. He told her he didn’t want to. She married him anyway. I guess it did not matter all that much for them; as they’ve been married 14 years and are doing quite well. I don’t think this is the norm, and they live in the midwest. Moreover, let’s just say this wasn’t her “ideal” situation.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Thank you J. I hope you are right. I have tried as much as I could to “up my chances,” so to speak. I am rather fastidious about research and have read enough medical information to scare me for quite a while, so some of my doom and gloom is also about that. I’ve been hearing the tick tock of the biological clock since I was around 23! Maybe I’m just weird. I had been taking prenatals and omega-3 for at least 3 years. Anyway, I hope I’m just unlucky, not broken.

  • J

    Hi Escoffier–

    it’s just a fact that, in a 24 hour day, you are going to sleep for roughly 8. That leaves 16. If you work…

    Are we cross-posting? I thought it was clear that I have been a SAHM. You are preaching to the choir here, though I do respect the women I know who have accomplished great things.

    BTW, I used to be a regular commenter here and elsewhere in the manosphere. I tend to drift in and out based on what else is happening in my life and how perturbed I am by the general tone of discussion. I followed you over to Dalrock’s to see the dust-up and thought you did a fine job of defending a reasonable position that was guaranteed to rile up his commenters who are even more rilable (if that’s not a word, I want credit for coining it) than I remembered them. As Ali G might say, RESPECT!

  • http://oldtimemoviereview.blogspot.com jamie

    “yeah isabel, watch out. i am a bad and i am dangerous. you DEFINITELY do not want to get to know me.”

    Is that a quote from Twilight?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “yeah isabel, watch out. i am a bad and i am dangerous. you DEFINITELY do not want to get to know me.”

      Is that a quote from Twilight?

      Jamie, you are hilarious. Honestly, you provide at least one belly laugh on every thread.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #135 olive

    “I’d argue that most 23-24 year old American girls are not mature enough for a guy in his 30s.”

    olive, this is an excellent comment, because it is a comment i can work off of.

    like i was telling isabel, let me tell you what men TRULY want — and yeah, it’s similar to the dave chapelle joke.

    a man wants a girl who is:

    1. pretty and sexy
    2. kind, caring, feminine and delicate
    3. fun to be around
    4. with many shared values
    5. and some shared interests

    the phrase, and the concept “not mature enough” — what does that exactly mean? what are we talking about here? i know that other men have been commenting about not liking girls who reading cosmo, or who watch jersey shore, etc — but don’t misunderstand what they are really saying.

    a man does not want a girl who is ANNOYING, VAPID and BORING. but a girl can watch the real housewives, read us weekly, and listen to celine dion — as long as she loves to cook, loves to fuck, and isn’t annoying and vapid — then who cares what she reads?

    some guys might say that reading us weekly MAKES her vapid, but that’s not true. us weekly is like sports illustrated for girls. all of us have a slightly frivolous, shallow side. and plus, nobody wants to be around someone who only thinks about very heavy stuff all day long, like nixon, kissinger, jfk — that kind of stuff can get really depressing.

    i guess my point is that maturity is just another one of those vague words that often doesn’t have much meaning. if a girl is 24 but wants to fall in love, and wants to live for real, and not just pretend, then that is 80% of it right there. if she still hasn’t read war and peace, i forgive her. i haven’t read it either.

    PLUS — and this is my last point — a girl at 24 will more often be fresh, lively, vulnerable and trusting — and that is something that a man really loves and values. this falls under her being “delicate” and “feminine”, and is second in importance only to her being pretty and sexy.

    a girl in her 30s is often much more jaded, and bitter, and sour.

    hard to fall in love with a sour girl.

    really hard.

    #136 zach

    “The (rough) plan in my case is to marry at 33-35 to a woman 27-30, and have the first kid at 34-37, when my financial situation will likely be strong enough to support it.”

    what’s your story? you sound like you kinda overthink things, especially when it comes to dating. how much yohami have you read. i recommend you read as much as you can find.

  • Olive

    Is anyone surprised that Rivelino is a protege of Doug1?

    LOL there’s something slightly endearing about Rivelino. Probably because he tries to be all big bad alpha and then he totally develops oneitis anyway. It’s interesting to watch him alternate.

    Meanwhile Doug1 just pisses me off sometimes. Like that crappy advice he gave Anna on the forum? I was so annoyed I initially removed myself from the conversation because I didn’t want to deal with another argument.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    That Wharton MBA was an unwise investment as it turns out

    My reply:

    But was it, really? You were in a social environment tailored for you to meet men who were going to be of a socio-economic background to support a family whether or not you became a stay-at-home mom. It was your insurance policy, so to speak. You got the degree which enabled you to become high-earning yourself and meet men who were going to be high-earning. It seems like a win-win.

  • Passer_By

    I have some premium quality spare sperm going to waste if any of you gals are feeling the need to get knocked up after this post.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    @Zach on cost of living and having kids. We live in Utah where the cost of living is not high. It also has the highest birth rate in the nation, though not most number of births. It’s really a good idea to start trying to have kids at mid-20s. They are only as expensive as you make them.

    It’s been very depressing for me to talk about fertility and babies though. I may have to remove myself from this topic for a while.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s been very depressing for me to talk about fertility and babies though. I may have to remove myself from this topic for a while.

      I’m sorry, Hope. I almost didn’t include the fertility piece because I didn’t want to upset you. In the end I decided I owed it to women to be honest about it. I apologize for bringing up a painful subject.

  • J

    Thank you J. I hope you are right.

    I am; it happens every once in a while. ;-)

    I am rather fastidious about research and have read enough medical information to scare me for quite a while, so some of my doom and gloom is also about that.

    OMG. Stop that. I drove myself, my DH and several infertility doctors nuts doing that. But if you can’t stop, just try to remember that stats are only stats. The chances of a 40 year old with my history having two kids are virtually nil, but I have a 100% chance right now of having to pick up a kid at an atheletic practice and a 100% chance of attending a piano recital on Sunday.

    I’ve been hearing the tick tock of the biological clock since I was around 23!

    There is a drop in fertility at 27, but it’s comparatively minor, and I think the stats are influence by a high rate of pelvic scarring in young women. I doubt that you need to worry about that. The big drop due to aging is at 35 or so. Your worries are premature here.

    Maybe I’m just weird. I had been taking prenatals and omega-3 for at least 3 years.

    That’s a good idea for anyone who is having sex actually. My second pregnancy was sort of unexpected, but I was still taking vitamins, etc.

    <i. Anyway, I hope I’m just unlucky, not broken.

    Unless there’s some other unidentified, underlying problem you aren’t broken. You’ve had some truly hellacious luck though. I’m sure it will get better.

    Gotta go. My son just called for a ride. Take good care.

  • Olive

    Rivelino,
    Clearly you haven’t spent enough time with 24-year-old American girls. Watch this:

    a man wants a girl who is:

    4. with many shared values
    5. and some shared interests

    Ok, so far she must have values and shared interests.

    a man does not want a girl who is ANNOYING, VAPID and BORING.

    You just described my college roommates. Good job.

    i guess my point is that maturity is just another one of those vague words that often doesn’t have much meaning. if a girl is 24 but wants to fall in love, and wants to live for real, and not just pretend, then that is 80% of it right there. if she still hasn’t read war and peace, i forgive her. i haven’t read it either.</blockquote
    Cool, I haven't read it either. But most girls my age probably couldn't have real discussions on this blog, because they probably can't write in coherent sentences. Not kidding, I had to help my English major roomie develop a paper on Emily Dickinson once, because she didn't know what the poem was about, and didn't have any coherent thoughts about the poem.

    Oh also, my roomie was a B student. Wtf is with grade inflation, professors.

    I mean cool, if you want a GF who only talks about Jersey Shore and Twilight, by all means, go for it. Those girls are all over the place. But, like I've said, my BF hates girls like that, and when I started becoming like that (hung out too much with those roomies), he called me out on it.

    PLUS — and this is my last point — a girl at 24 will more often be fresh, lively, vulnerable and trusting — and that is something that a man really loves and values. this falls under her being “delicate” and “feminine”, and is second in importance only to her being pretty and sexy.

    Erm, most American girls are neither “delicate” nor “feminine.” They’re bitchy, even aggressive. Dunno about Spanish girls though.

  • Olive

    Boo. Blockquote fail.

  • J

    Escoffier–I see one of my posts regarding being a SAHM is in mod. No wonder you didn’t see it!

  • pvw

    PLUS — and this is my last point — a girl at 24 will more often be fresh, lively, vulnerable and trusting — and that is something that a man really loves and values. this falls under her being “delicate” and “feminine”, and is second in importance only to her being pretty and sexy.

    My observation:

    Perhaps that might be why some of the younger women might be wary of the men who are much older (more than 5 years) interested in them? Some older dude who thinks that because they are young, they are to be preyed upon as being young and naive? They or their parents worried that their vulnerability might lead them to be taken advantage of?

  • Isabel

    Rivelino: I’ve already told you which census to look at upthread and I’m still not buying it! The average life expectancy was 40-45 for most people for most of human history. It still is in some countries so you’re having a laugh if you think men regularly married at 30-35+.

    isabel, you don’t understand men. i am a man. you should listen to me if you want insight into the male psyche. a man can want to fuck a lot of girls in his 20s, and then find a girl to adore in his 30s. completely normal. healthy, even.

    First things first, I know that and I’m not silly enough to deny it. And I might not be a man, but I am still attracted to them and so, I think I should be allowed to pipe in on what’s optimal for girls my age. As it happens, I see Hope’s suggestion as the most practical and sustainable here so far. That is, foregoing the finished product in favour of the unfinished but promising young beta. He might not have the capital or confidence (yet) but it’s hardly the end of the world tbh. Quite frankly, I can think of worse things to lack in a partner.

    Anyway. That’s what my mum did and I was one of four or five out of a class of 30 whose parents rocked up together every year to parents’ evening. So YMMV.

    You guys, imo, are encouraring an even more inequal system.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That is, foregoing the finished product in favour of the unfinished but promising young beta. He might not have the capital or confidence (yet) but it’s hardly the end of the world tbh. Quite frankly, I can think of worse things to lack in a partner.

      Not only that, but the journey is wonderful to witness. You grow together. And he will repay your loyalty in those early days with loyalty as you age. That is the time-honored (now often dishonored) contract between men and women.

  • Ramble

    In my experience I don’t find that key health information is “hidden”, rather I find that women aren’t listening. Feminists may have a vested interest in suppressing knowledge, but gynecologists do not.

    Malia, I had to do a lot of refined searching to find out really accurate info on specific ages at which female fertility and ability to have a healthy baby go down.

    Much of the info that is easily available will simply talk about what a 30 year old woman might expect relative to a 40 year old woman. To this day, I can not find out data concerning 18 year old girls, even though there must be tons of data out there.

  • pvw

    And thinking about maturity, male of female, I have an example that just says a lot.

    I have sat on my schools board that hears allegations of disciplinary violations.

    We recently heard some cases, one which just blows my mind at the recklessness and immaturity.

    A young man (20-something) is in one of the more demanding graduate majors here at the school. One afternoon he was studying with some friends, when they took a break. They were on youtube looking at videos when they found a hilarious one, a consultant who rapped. Crazy sounding, but it is what it is.

    So what do these group of young men do? They discover that the consultant is for real. One of them then goes to the on-line form and impersonates a colleague in their program, using ebonics and making claims that he suffers from alcoholism and has all sorts of other “issues,” and that he is looking for a job. He uses the colleague’s real name and school email.

    The consultant then sends an email to the one impersonated. The victim has no idea what it is about, but is shocked. He posts to myspace or something like that; the perpetrator calls and apologizies. Other students bring charges against him before the honor board.

    The young man has no explanation of why he did it; he was not drinking, he has had no real dealings with the victim, so forth, and so forth. He had no animosity towards him. But he was there, sniveling and crying that he is a good person, this is not really him.

    Beyond disgraceful. He is going to be reprimanded; this will be on his college record.

    The mindset it takes to do something like that is beyond me. Normal people see a youtube video and laugh. This character takes the time to do something so crazy, as though it will not be found out and traced. And he never sent another post after the first disclaiming it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      Oh, I have a story for you. A college girl got mad at a classmate and here’s how she got revenge. She called the girl’s home, and when her mother answered, asked for the daughter. The mother explained that the daughter was away at school. The girl said, “Please tell her Planned Parenthood called. The test was positive and the window for termination is about to close.” The poor mother couldn’t reach her daughter so she got on a plane and surprised her daughter with this message. It was brought to the disciplinary board and the girl was reprimanded.

      Another one: a female college student got a hysterical call from her parents saying that she was on a porn site. Family friends had called to make them aware – I have no idea who spotted her first. Her boyfriend of two years had been filming their sexual encounters and uploading it to sites without her knowledge. It took her weeks to find all the sites and get the videos taken down. He was suspended for a semester.

      In both these cases, the students blubbered with apologies, but I don’t think they were sorry about anything except getting caught.

  • JimKhan

    @Susan;

    “Yes, but those types don’t marry as much. Or if they do, they’re not monogamous. There are exceptions of course – Paul McCartney, Ringo, Sting, Bono. Their wives essentially won the lottery in that regard.”

    The are not exceptions. Of the four mentioned, Macca, Ringo, and Sting have all been married multiple times. Macca’s on his third wife, having only had to pay out £24.3 million + £35,000 per annum for child support to get rid of the last harpy before he went and got married again. Only Bono married one woman and stayed married. I suppose you’re correct in that all of their wives won the lottery, but sadly, with the exception of Bono, the rest have had to pay out the equivalent of a lottery to make those women go away having made the mistake of marrying those women in the first place. Hookers would have been a far cheaper option.

    FYI, if Americans think divorce laws are punitive for men in the US, they’re absolutely draconian in the UK.

  • Isabel

    Riv,

    yeah isabel, watch out. i am bad and i am dangerous. you DEFINITELY do not want to get to know me.

    Eh. Bring it. Tudors just started and I need something to do inbetween the ad breaks. >:]

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Tudors just started and I need something to do inbetween the ad breaks

      Is that the new season? The first season had more gratuitously naked breasts than I’ve ever seen anywhere.

  • tvmunson

    @Susan #124

    “Little ones”-I’ve only heard parents say it that way. Mine’s arriving from Seattle in a little over an hour. Your phrase took me back to when he was. (BTW Susan just called; he missed his flight(?!)).

  • Malia

    @ramble

    I don’t know why it was hard for you to find maybe you don’t understand what to look for. I only say that because you question the lack of studies of fertility at 18 when my thought is why would there be a vested interest in studying the fertility of teenagers when it’s not considered the optimal age to have a child?

  • Ramble

    And thinking about maturity, male of female, I have an example that just says a lot.

    PVW, this is the kind of thing you see a lot from young men?

  • Anacaona

    Not romance novels either.

    This one again?! Really this is like asking for a man that never looked at porn. All my married friends are avid readers of romance novels, no cheating, no frivolous divorce in fact that one I mentioned that cheated on her husband doesn’t even read magazines, let alone novels. Stop with the meme that all your problems with women reside in one genre,sheesh…

    Geordi LaForge and Data could spend decades on that project and not come up with a solution.”

    kissinthecheek, two of my favorite star trek TNG boys are always welcome :)

  • Olive

    As it happens, I see Hope’s suggestion as the most practical and sustainable here so far. That is, foregoing the finished product in favour of the unfinished but promising young beta. He might not have the capital or confidence (yet) but it’s hardly the end of the world tbh. Quite frankly, I can think of worse things to lack in a partner.

    Cosign. I have found a promising young beta and it seems to be working out so far. Rivelino’s not a fan of that plan because he was a beta and basically got screwed by his ex-wife. Which is why the ladies need to do some serious introspection if they really want LTRs/successful marriages.

  • Ramble

    I only say that because you question the lack of studies of fertility at 18 when my thought is why would there be a vested interest in studying the fertility of teenagers when it’s not considered the optimal age to have a child?

    Teenagers get pregnant all the time. Women in their late 30’s (and earlier) have difficulty all the time. They both are treated by doctors. You are telling me that the difference between the two would not be of medical interest?

    Either way, that is not the point. The point is this: if all you cared about was some basic information on fertility for a woman in, say, her 30’s, then, yes, that should have been easy enough to get. But if you were a 22 yer old girl wanteing to get a really good idea about what her ability/likelihood is to have a healthy baby at 22, 25, 28, 31 and so on…that information is really hard to find.

    If all you are saying is that many girls do not want to know, you will get no argument from me. But if you are saying that information like the bit I just mentioned above is easy to find, I am saying it is not.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #162 olive

    “Rivelino’s not a fan of that plan”

    i LOVE the idea of the engineering nerds getting laid by all the cute girls on campus. i love it.

    trust me, you won’t find a more adoring, appreciate, dedicated, and loving husband than the shy, nerdy man who was constantly passed up and ignored by the girls in favor of all the loud and cocky show offs.

    that reminds me, my sister had a theory, she called it her “quiet man” theory — how both of my sisters went for the “quiet man”, because he had more substance than the loud, obnoxious man.

    there is something to that.

    so i love that idea.

    i just worry that eventually, a woman’s intrinsic nature will have her walking all over this shy, kind beta husband — and eventually she will lose her attraction for him — and eventually, she will cheat on him.

    so maybe shy, quiet STEM man + athol’s book + roissy’s XVI stapled to his forehead = the answer to all of susan’s female readers

    plan b: look for the older, established man who has fallen in love before, and wants to fall in love again, with a young, fresh, optimistic girl a decade younger than him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      plan b: look for the older, established man who has fallen in love before, and wants to fall in love again, with a young, fresh, optimistic girl a decade younger than him.

      This is hilarious – shameless self-promotion! Riv, you missed your calling. You should have been in sales.

      “I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? Plastics.”

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #149 olive

    “I had to help my English major roomie develop a paper on Emily Dickinson once, because she didn’t know what the poem was about, and didn’t have any coherent thoughts about the poem.”

    well i think you are right about girls — and the new generation overall — being more shallow than previous generations. chris hedges writes about this in his book “empire of illusion”.

    he has this great quote in this youtube video:

    “You look at my son’s generation, who are texting and twittering and listening to music, and it has the capacity to destroy thought. Thought is done in solitude and silence. We live in a culture where we fear any kind of solitude. We have created such powerful systems of technology and most of us are halicuting. We are completely disconnected from the real. We have created a virtual reality which we mistake for the real.” -Chris Hedges

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EpeF1fcji0

  • pioneervalleywoman

    And thinking about maturity, male or female, I have an example that just says a lot.

    PVW, this is the kind of thing you see a lot from young men?

    My reply:

    What I have noticed is that on this committee, it seems as though it is primarily young men who are doing things that get them before the honor boards: blatant cheating, plagiarizing, or doing silly things like impersonating someone in the fashion I described.

    Is it that girls are not doing these things too? I would never say that, but it seems as though the young men are the ones who are so obvious in their behavior and as such they are easily discovered by their peers.

    Is it male rambunctiousness that leads them to this, ie., act first and then think later? Perhaps. Whatever it is, it is not being rewarded.

    And some of my male colleagues do similar sorts of thing too, say all kinds of crazy things in emails when it would have been better to be silent or to think before they hit the “send” button. I can’t think of any of my female colleagues creating the kinds of messes some of my male colleagues have created in this fashion.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #144 olive

    “LOL there’s something slightly endearing about Rivelino. Probably because he tries to be all big bad alpha and then he totally develops oneitis anyway. It’s interesting to watch him alternate.”

    actually i am working on my secret formula:

    80% big bad alpha
    20% vulnerable romantic idealist
    = 100% pounding ass like it’s my job

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Rivelino your Comment Luv entry is really creeping me out.

  • Malia

    @ramble

    Yes I am telling you that there is no vested interest in promoting the fertility of teenagers just as you see it trail off at the upper ages. There is a social consensus on what is too young and too old to have children and there is no vested interest in making it more likely to happen.

    As a female the gyn talk is pregnancy prevention up to a certain age and while teens get pregnant all the time it is still considered and unfortunate end result that needs to be diminished as much as possible.

    As far as where to get the info at a young age yes a GYN. I haven’t met one yet that wasn’t a straight shooter through and through. I havent met one that sugar coated the truth though I am sure a few do.

    When I was younger I would even advise my friends to have that convo with their gyn instead of other girlfriends and they refused to do so. Why not go to the source? When you dont want to hear the truth.

  • Ramble

    What I have noticed is that on this committee, it seems as though it is primarily young men who are doing things that get them before the honor boards:

    pioneervalleywoman,
    As some have noted before, taking risks is alpha/sexy. Of course, a young mans ability to figure out the sexy risks versus the stupid ones is not always all that great.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As some have noted before, taking risks is alpha/sexy. Of course, a young mans ability to figure out the sexy risks versus the stupid ones is not always all that great.

      It’s not a question of sexy vs. stupid. What that guy did was cruel and racist. What a jackass. If you want to call him alpha, go right ahead, it just proves the criticism of alpha traits.

  • Olive

    Riv,

    i just worry that eventually, a woman’s intrinsic nature will have her walking all over this shy, kind beta husband — and eventually she will lose her attraction for him — and eventually, she will cheat on him.

    Yeah, that’s exactly what I thought you would say, which is why I said you’re not a huge fan of the beta plan. IDK how much truth there is to the losing attraction theory, we were discussing on another thread whether beta traits actually attract a girl’s instincts. I know they attract mine, they seem to attract Susan’s. Maybe we’re weird, or maybe girls have just been led down the wrong path. I know some of it’s animal instinct, but we’re also products of socialization. For example, I still think Mike’s wife left him because she was stuck in Disney Princess land. That ain’t biology.

  • Olive

    Riv,
    Good luck with that. You’ll get the girls who go for big bad alpha, aaaand I still think you’re more than 20% vulnerable romantic idealist, so you might be unhappy with the girls you end up with. They’ll constantly test your boundaries, like Yohami’s GF does. Just a thought.

  • pioneervalleywoman

    In this instance today, one of the grandfatherly members of the comittee really called him out. I said to my colleague afterwards, perhaps this young man might have needed to hear that sort of thing from his dad, ie., what is appropriate behavior in a young man. Or as my other colleague mentioned, young men together can act stupidly, and so the young man never told his dad what he did. But I’m sure he will have to tell him eventually. It was sad, though, that he allowed himself to be dismissed and stereotyped; none of us had ever met him before, but colleagues who knew of him saw him as nothing more than a dim bulb, not too bright, pretty stupid.

  • Ramble

    Yes I am telling you that there is no vested interest in promoting the fertility of teenagers just as you see it trail off at the upper ages.

    Understanding fertility and promoting it are two different things. However, it is very possible that the reason why it is so difficult to find the information i mentioned is because the “powers that be” might see it as a promotion of the idea that younger women should be getting pregnant.

    As far as where to get the info at a young age yes a GYN. I haven’t met one yet that wasn’t a straight shooter through and through. I havent met one that sugar coated the truth though I am sure a few do.

    But I am guessing that very few ObGyns are telling there 22 year old clients that they should start having babies before, say, 27. Right?

    When I was younger I would even advise my friends to have that convo with their gyn instead of other girlfriends and they refused to do so. Why not go to the source? When you dont want to hear the truth.

    Here, you will get no argument from me. I believe it.

  • Sassy6519

    Meanwhile Doug1 just pisses me off sometimes. Like that crappy advice he gave Anna on the forum? I was so annoyed I initially removed myself from the conversation because I didn’t want to deal with another argument.

    I did the same thing Olive. I wanted to respond so badly and to tell her not to listen to Doug1’s advice, but I knew I was going to end up arguing with him again. Nothing is more of a deterrent than the impending doom felt by the prospect of talking to a brick wall.

    Aside from that, I think this is another great post Susan. Much to the bewilderment of some of my friends, I have always been LTR/marriage oriented when it comes to interacting with men. I recently reactivated my Okcupid account (I deactivated it before because I was frustrated with the prospects), and I will keep you updated with any interesting experiences or knowledge learned from there.

  • Olive

    I did the same thing Olive. I wanted to respond so badly and to tell her not to listen to Doug1′s advice, but I knew I was going to end up arguing with him again. Nothing is more of a deterrent than the impending doom felt by the prospect of talking to a brick wall.

    In case you haven’t checked back, Susan was pissed and deleted some of his advice (esp. the shit about the implants and FWB being good when you have already dated the guy… wtf was that shit anyway lol). I have since started giving Anna advice about her sister and called Doug out on his terrible advice. He’s been participating minimally, so very few arguments so far. In case you want to jump in, you probably have some pretty good stuff to say as well. Esp. since you fall into the female alpha range in terms of SMV and I don’t. I have no idea what to tell her about which guys to look for.

  • Malia

    But I am guessing that very few ObGyns are telling there 22 year old clients that they should start having babies before, say, 27. Right?

    I would not make that assumption. Also I come from the perspective of someone who has always had private insurance (I have no idea what goes on at planned parenthood and the like). Usually the talk goes like this:

    1- are you sexually active
    2- STD talks
    3- do you want children/more children
    4- let’s talk realistically about the answer to #3

    Now if a woman says she doesn’t want children, or doesn’t want them anytime soon, no the GYN usually doesn’t push (although some will especially if they deal with a lot of fertility issues), because that’s a social issue. But if the woman ASKS, as I said before, or talks about wanting children, I’ve never met a GYN who wasn’t a straight shooter.

    Because…

    Delivering the bad news is devastating. Most women presume fertility. And not only do they presume fertility, but they presume optimal fertility (in the absence of medical or genetic condition which are widely known to affect fertility). They don’t even think about high risk pregnancies or things like pre-eclampsyia, gestational diabetes, ectopic pregnancy, etc., or they presume that’s for old/fat/unhealthy people only.

    Infertility usually doesn’t become an issue until someone has been trying to conceive and has not. Young women, quite frankly, often don’t bother to ask (because they presume that they can, without incident, when they want to).

    Now as far as your concerns about the availability of the information, I would also presume I’ve spent far more time in the GYN’s office (or as they call it, the “women’s health center”) than you have and you’ll just have to trust me that no one is hiding it.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I suppose you’re correct in that all of their wives won the lottery, but sadly, with the exception of Bono, the rest have had to pay out the equivalent of a lottery to make those women go away having made the mistake of marrying those women in the first place.

    Exquisitely put. I’d like to know what percentage of the ‘Do You Want To Get Married?’ pie chart were male…

    Riv,
    Good luck with that. You’ll get the girls who go for big bad alpha, aaaand I still think you’re more than 20% vulnerable romantic idealist, so you might be unhappy with the girls you end up with. They’ll constantly test your boundaries, like Yohami’s GF does. Just a thought.

    You are wise beyond your years, young padawan.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Olive

    In case you haven’t checked back, Susan was pissed and deleted some of his advice (esp. the shit about the implants and FWB being good when you have already dated the guy… wtf was that shit anyway lol). I have since started giving Anna advice about her sister and called Doug out on his terrible advice. He’s been participating minimally, so very few arguments so far. In case you want to jump in, you probably have some pretty good stuff to say as well. Esp. since you fall into the female alpha range in terms of SMV and I don’t. I have no idea what to tell her about which guys to look for.

    Yeah, I saw that Susan refereed that thread and I think she did a great job of it. I read your advice to Anna too, and I think it’s solid. As far as giving her advice myself , I’ll probably pass on that unless something she says really strikes me. I think you and Susan summed up everything I was already thinking anyway.

    Although I do fall into the female “alpha range”, I don’t chase/pursue alpha men. The advice you gave is pretty much what I would tell her too. I like and prefer beta males. If my preference was for alpha males, that would be a different story.

  • Chipps

    @Badger 47

    I couldn’t help but applaud what you said here.

    I will admit, I’m planning on walking that tightrope you referenced. I want to be independent for the most of my 20’s. Im only 22 now, but after college I plan to live abroad for a few years and then come back for graduate school. Lets just say I don’t plan on having kids until I’m 30 at least.

    That being said I wouldn’t be opposed to marriage at all during my time abroad or during graduate school. You’re absolutely right, people need to recognize the ideal partner is extremely rare. I’d snap that right off the market if given the chance. Though, I find it irresponsible to start a family without financial backing so I wouldn’t have children until that was possible though I’d plan for that fact early on, hell I’m thinking about it now.

    I think this should be put into a pamphlet and handed out at high school graduation and then again during freshman year of college. Women really need to realize this. Its a shame more don’t.

    I can’t say that I identify with that “drive” to reproduce. At least not as much as a lot of other people do. If I get married, great. If I have kids, great. A part of me might even regret it, but I accept that too. BUT, I would be just as happy adopting or foster children because there are too many in the world without parents. I think this is because I would rather pass my ideas and thoughts to my children rather than my DNA.

    Great post Susan and Badger.

  • Michael of Charlotte

    [q]They estimated that a 30 year-old had an 80% chance of getting pregnant in one try. The real likelihood is 30%. They also thought a 40 year-old woman would have a 40% success rate, while those odds are less than 10%.[/q]

    So this will be incredibly harsh but, as a man in his 30s who is looking for kids; from a probability standpoint, I should pretty much ignore every woman who is 30 or over? Right?

    That’s real sad…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Michael of Charlotte

      I should pretty much ignore every woman who is 30 or over? Right?

      Well, it’s important to keep it in perspective. Remember, the numbers refer to getting pregnant in one try. In my life I’ve known four or five women well who have suffered with infertility, and dozens who have had kids in their 30s without difficulty. Are the odds better with a younger woman? Yes. I feel fortunate that I had no problems.

      My advice would be to go after the youngest women you can attract. There may be a tradeoff there between age and looks.

  • Jennifer

    “It looks like among those college educated women who married men with college educations, the divorce rate is probably lower”

    That’s great! Education and potential are indeed vitally healthy for both sexes.

  • pvw

    Susan:

    In both these cases, the students blubbered with apologies, but I don’t think they were sorry about anything except getting caught.

    My reply: I agree, that was probably the motivating factor here, that he might have gotten kicked out of school.

    Susan:

    What that guy did was cruel and racist.

    My reply:

    One of my colleagues mentioned that it seemed that way; the irony, though, is that neither of the young men were black!

  • Cbear

    The sad thing is that some of us in our early 30’s didn’t necessarily CHOOSE career over marriage. It just happens that I haven’t found someone that I want to marry, not that I chose my career first. I am well aware of the fertility issues that women face but I also can’t have a child just because I’m at the age where I have a better chance or when society tells me I should. Again, not having children yet has nothing to do with my career goals. I haven’t met the right guy that I’d want to take that step with. I don’t think it’s so easy to say you’re picking one thing over another, I don’t think it’s that cut and dry. Hopefully, when I’m finally ready for children, I’ll still be able to have them but I can’t rush it, especially when I’m not ready for that step.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cbear

      Thanks for leaving that comment, I appreciate your honesty. You’re right – no strategy is guaranteed. In fact, a woman might actively choose family over career, decide not to go to medical school, for example, and then not meet a man she wants to marry. To some extent, we’re all placing bets and hoping things break our way. The best we can do is pursue our dreams to the best of our ability, understanding that we may not get everything we want, and can still lead a good and productive life in spite of that.

  • Ramble

    Now if a woman says she doesn’t want children, or doesn’t want them anytime soon, no the GYN usually doesn’t push (although some will especially if they deal with a lot of fertility issues), because that’s a social issue. But if the woman ASKS, as I said before, or talks about wanting children, I’ve never met a GYN who wasn’t a straight shooter.

    OK, thanks. I am glad that I was wrong.

  • Hope

    It’s okay Susan. I have done enough research into this subject to traumatize myself already. :P

    But the whole a woman at 30’s chance of getting pregnant in one try being 30% stat? Guess what, that’s the same for ALL couples, including younger people in their 20s.

    http://www.babycenter.com/0_how-long-it-takes-to-get-pregnant_1813.bc

    An 80% figure in one try is impractical even for healthy 20-year-olds. So that particular piece of information was misleading.

    Okay, takes deep breath, back to distracting myself with other things.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Oh and not sure if others have seen this, but here’s the graph on the effect of age on fertility:

    http://www.babycenter.com/0_chart-the-effect-of-age-on-fertility_6155.bc

  • lovelost

    @Sassy6519 #175
    Aside from that, I think this is another great post Susan. Much to the bewilderment of some of my friends, I have always been LTR/marriage oriented when it comes to interacting with men. I recently reactivated my Okcupid account (I deactivated it before because I was frustrated with the prospects), and I will keep you updated with any interesting experiences or knowledge learned from there.

    My best wishes are with you. Good luck and enjoy your time on Okcupid.

  • lovelost

    @Susan #188

    You grow together. And he will repay your loyalty in those early days with loyalty as you age.

    Also referred to as wishful thinking in the current SMP.

  • Ceer

    @ Rivelino
    marry a guy 10 years older.

    This just shunts the burden of wifelessness a half generation down the line. The thorough answer is to educate women properly about their choices.

    @ Ted D
    And THAT is key. In the U.S. the schools simply punish boys for being boys instead of finding ways to take their natural state and use it to help them learn

    This is my experience. Where I am from, there is an organized group of tutors who teach math and science. They exist in parallel to a robust private school system because the public schools can’t seem to adequately educate the students. Boys particularly.

    I tutor this one child whose grandmother was worried about how he was learning in school. She was surprised to find out the teacher never called him up to the board to work problems in front of the class.

    @Hope

    They need to make college far tougher…. Nowadays the general requirements are extremely easy, and lots of (I hate to say this) dumb people are graduating with a piece of paper.

    Yes and no. Typically, your engineering and science based programs are rigorous enough to prevent people who can’t do the work from graduating. But that has to be balanced with skilled instruction, or you get a system that doesn’t graduate enough skilled professionals.

    I would actually promote more job based learning because the current education system is corrupt and has no real competition. Schools are stuck in the position where they have to guess which skills are in demand and which are not. Companies tend to allow managers who can’t train employees to lead many teams because they’re going to be taxed to pay for someone else’s training anyway. The workarounds we have today with co-op programs and companies paying for college training for some employees are a start, but there’s an obvious need for something more widespread.

    Yeah, the fertility thing sucks. I’m 27, almost 28, and I am scared that I won’t be able to have a healthy baby.

    That you’re worried now is a good sign. If you’re diligent in trying to conceive, I’d still put your chances at “pretty high”.

    @Susan
    I’ve read that this could happen based on the precedent set by gay marriage. If it does happen on a technicality that doesn’t mean any but a few outliers will embrace it.

    There is one way to hold that back at its source. Make clear to the culture at large that the purpose of sex is to maintain the bond between a man and a woman and to have children. Holding this as a first principle allows you to properly parry complaints from people who want to change marriage.

    “You speak to me nonchalantly about women’s rape fantasies and fascination with Twilight and then expect me to be shocked and disgusted by a man who likes rough anal sex and degrading women…” — Hollenhund

    I’m speechless that you would equate the two. One is fantasy, one is acting out violence.

    “Likes” is the key word here. It’s really different from “takes part in”. From what I see, he’s talking about the nature of the person, rather than the actions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ceer

      “Likes” is the key word here. It’s really different from “takes part in”. From what I see, he’s talking about the nature of the person, rather than the actions.

      In that case we were discussing Roissy’s having taken part in the actions, and written about how much he enjoyed himself. The degradation of the woman was what got him off.

  • Ceer

    [quote]quote test[/quote]

    because I failed in the last post.

  • Zach

    @Rivelino

    I don’t read any “game” blogs. The reason I read/comment on this one is pure interest in the topic of the SMP, as a man living it today. I’ve never seen the need to read any. I’m 6’4, in shape, good looking (although that may sound narcissictic I have much independent confirmation), Ivy-educated, and have a prestigious, highly remunerative job. I’m also very confident and witty naturally. Again, this all may sound egotistical, but I have never, ever had the slightest problem with women (maybe what you call a natural alpha). However, I have quite a few good friends, both guys and girls, who do suffer from the current SMP, and as a naturally analytical person I find Susan’s approach to looking at the current situation very appealing.

    I said that’s my “plan”, but I’m fully aware that things may not turn out that way. I’m going to get my MBA starting next fall, and who knows what will happen after that. That is merely my ideal scenario, at least financially.

    Hopefully that explains why I don’t spend my time reading Yohami’s or other such blogs, although I do find his comments interesting and often correct.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      I’m going to get my MBA starting next fall, and who knows what will happen after that.

      If you already know that, congratulations are in order!

  • http://www.thoughtsfromtheboonies.blogspot.com Jason

    Ceer

    blockquote

    /blockquote

  • Escoffier

    ok, i have now gone out three nights in a row in the heart of my big blue city. This is unusual for me.

    I was able to observe the single manhattan career wench in her natural habitat. upper age let’s say 45, lower end 27 (i don’t go to dance clubs).

    These gals are, at least outwardly, having a PHENOMENAL time. They love every minute. They may be dimly aware in their hindbrain that it’s all going to screech to an abrubt, head-smash-against-the-steering-wheel halt sooner or later. But for now, they do not care.

    Bartender! A Viogner for my girlfriend and I’ll have a … oh … how about a Scarlett O’Hara? Do you know how to make that?

    Hmmm … that guy at the end looks like an i-banker … you flirt with him and let’s see if we can get him to pick up our tab …

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Re your account of Manhattan wenches…that sounds exactly like an episode from Sex and the City. They were always having a wonderful time and then it was “woe is me” when they were alone sipping their Mimosas at brunch.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Brooklyn before Boston any time. Not to get into my specific situation, but I agree 400k is a minimum, and there may be struggles. It was meant more as an illustration of how difficult it is to achieve kids/family in some areas at a young age. However, one point to make is that estimate is based on renting; buying a home in Manhattan, based on rent/buy ratios, is suicide in any market, up or down. It’s by far the highest ratio in the country. Your generation grew up with a fixation on home ownership; I’m banking on not falling into that trap.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      Mike C, who is an investment pro and comments here a lot, agrees with you about home ownership. That might indeed make a huge difference.

  • OffTheCuff

    Hope, have some hope… things may change. We went through a few years of fertility treatment when Mrs. C was younger than you. Our first was finally conceived via IUI. Since we went through 3 years of infertility, we figured didn’t need birth control anymore.

    Wrong! She was pregnant 3 months later. Barely recovered from the C-section.

    Then, our third was conceived the one and only time I ever attempted “pulling out” as a form of birth control. A drip is all it takes, apparently.

  • Escoffier

    400K/year you can (possibly) get 1500 sq ft. on the far, far West Side (aka Hell’s Kitchen) and still afford an OK private school for ONE kid. UES or UWS, forget it. Two kids, hahahaha.

    Figure drops by 1/3 in the close-in ‘burbs, 1/2 when the commute stretches to >1 hour.

  • J

    It is, sort of, and that’s quite unexpected. I never planned to start a small business at 52, lol.

    And that is so cool. I’d love to have one of my hobby interests turn into something that generated income, but I don’t have a business background.
    I wouldn’t know where to start.

    As I said in another comment, I couldn’t devote this kind of time to a blog with kids at home.

    Most of us can’t. I’ve worked flex-time at jobs I had passion for once the boys were in school, but I wasn’t even going to try to handle full-time, just “anything that paid” work and kids. My jobs often dovetailed with my family life or gave my kids opportunities that they might not have had–like subbing at their private school or coordinating educational travel. Still a few super organized, super energetic women do handle huge careers. I just wasn’t one of them. I don’t cry nights over it, but I’m impressed by women who do it.

    That’s true. And of course, I met my husband in b-school, so I don’t second guess it. It all worked out fine.

    Yeah, and as much as the manosphere loves to say that sex appeal is more important than anything else, can you imagine your DH married to someone less intelligent, competent or educated than you are? I can’t imagine my husband with anyone much different from me in that department. He likes sex and a hot meal as much as any guy, but he likes some intelligent conversation to go with it.

    I think it would be a stretch, however, to say I’d used my MBA throughout my life.

    Why do women have to use a particular degree on an everyday basis? I know plenty of guys with one degree or another that has nothing to do with their present employment, including many male JDs who have never practiced law. My degrees, which are in helping professions, are probably more germane to family life than an MBA, but I think that the mere fact that I accomplished some things, lived independently for a while and developed some non-domestic skills benefits my family. YMMV, but I’d bet not by much.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I agree with you 100% on the intelligent conversation. That’s the spark that fuels our attraction over time. Thanks for the perspective – I needed it. You have a great outlook!

  • Escoffier

    Zach, the rent-buy ratio is actually a lot worse in Northern California. SF, SV down to Santa Cruz, nice but cramped little bungalows are prices like San Simeon but you can rent 800 SF for 1/3 the monthly payment on a comparable buy.

  • Sassy6519

    @ lovelost

    Thanks for the positive support. I need as much of that as I can get in today’s SMP.

  • J

    Malia #177

    I would co-sign your description of GYN visits. Doctors have been acting as you describe for at least the last 25 years and the “ticking of the biological clock” has been in the news at least that long. It’s not “suppressed” information by any means. I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    [blockquote]I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.[/blockquote]

    Add female pressure I have a friend that lives in Spain and she is 33 like me (I actually have a lot of friends born in 78…isn’t that weird?) anyway she decided to start to conceive this year and her Spanish friends gave her a lecture on waiting till she had more money and after 35. I think a lot of women are promoting the fertility last forever meet more often than not as well as the media. I naturally told her to not listen to them and start to try for her baby but there is a lot of pressure to wait in the first world as a mark of intelligence and higher status.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    47 Badger December 15, 2011 at 2:22 pm wrote:

    In addition to being upset about getting blown off, I thought “she probably just burned one of her chances.” Attractive intelligent guys who are DTLTR are a declining breed.

    DTLTR = ?

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

    ( I think that a morning coffee is ready… )

  • Michael of Charlotte

    DTLTR (Down to Long Term Relationship)

    It’s a play of the term DTF (Down to F***)

    It’s what you girls want the most vs. what we want, right?

  • Olive

    Susan,

    The mother explained that the daughter was away at school. The girl said, “Please tell her Planned Parenthood called. The test was positive and the window for termination is about to close.”

    LOL she got that straight out of Mean Girls.

  • J

    I think a lot of women are promoting the fertility last forever meet more often than not as well as the media…

    I don’t know. Although I travel in circles where women have delayed childbearing, I’ve personally never heard anyone tell a 33 year old that she was too young to have a baby–although there is a lot of support for 33 not being too old. I certainly wouldn’t encourage a 33 yo to wait longer, but I wouldn’t tell her that she’d miss the boat either. If a woman hasn’t had a kid by 33, it’s sure not to late to start. Odds of your friend having a healthy baby now are still pretty good. After 35, not so much…

    I didn’t realize you were 33. Not to pry, but do you have kids?

  • Anacaona

    I didn’t realize you were 33. Not to pry, but do you have kids?

    Being trying since August (I was waiting to get a job in USA so I started as soon as I got my first paycheck)…still nothing. I know is a bit early to panic, and I’m totally ashamed of it given how bad Hope has gotten I have no right to be worried, but I’m the impatient type and I already started the “driving myself crazy with research” that she mentioned. Hubby has been very positive, which is rare I’m the wide eyed optimistic one usually, but I cannot help but think that something IS wrong with me and I will never get to meet that green eyed child 23andme say hubby and I had like 70% chances of having. :(

  • Höllenhund

    „If it does happen on a technicality that doesn’t mean any but a few outliers will embrace it.”

    It will probably have an effect only on the margins – but an effect nonetheless.

    „Who cares what you think?”

    I’m sure that, in the spirit of fairness, you sometimes ask the same question to all the other commenters.

    Right?

    „Agreed, that’s why I describe him as brilliant and perceptive.”

    No, you don’t agree, because you also call him a deranged sadist psychopath, which I don’t.

    „I’m speechless that you would equate the two.”

    I’m sure it’s the intent and the mentality that disgusts you in the first place, not the act itself. And women also act on their fantasies, mind you. Slutting it up with alpha thugs etc.

    „You might want to dial back the porn consumption.”

    Oh please. That’s just cop-out and a lame attempt at shaming language. We know the score. You’ve written about female sexual fantasies before. Surveys, the other data, testimonials from both men and women about their experiences – all the evidence is all there. You know well that in all likelihood Roissy was simply giving that woman what she wanted when he had rough anal and/or degrading sex with her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      „Who cares what you think?”

      I’m sure that, in the spirit of fairness, you sometimes ask the same question to all the other commenters.

      Right?

      First, I was mostly joking. Second, you’re the only commenter who has ever called me incredibly lame.

      No, you don’t agree, because you also call him a deranged sadist psychopath, which I don’t.

      Being a deranged sadist psychopath and being intelligent are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they’re probably highly correlated.

      I’m sure it’s the intent and the mentality that disgusts you in the first place, not the act itself.

      That’s not true. I think people have all sorts of dark fantasies, and that doesn’t disgust me. It’s when people act out fantasies that harm another that disgust me. He rejoiced in inflicting pain on another person. And to say that lots of women enjoy rough anal sex is beside the point. His account made it clear that she did not enjoy it, which is what got him off.

      „You might want to dial back the porn consumption.”

      You said “tons” of women want rough anal sex. I disagree. I’m not sure if you mean a few thousand bodily pounds of female flesh, in which case you may be right. But if you mean to imply this is a common wish among women, you are very, very misinformed. Porn depicts this, but it does not mirror real life. Because of porn, anal sex is a very common request from young men during sex, and there are women who enjoy it when taken very slowly. However, this has come up in my focus groups. Around half the women had tried it, and none had found it enjoyable. Several complied to please their boyfriends. YMMV.

  • Abbot

    .

    Marriage in decline? How about a wife-material shortage?

    “Think of the last time a guy asked you “how many people have you had sex with?…the answer is heavily factored by many men in determining whether you are girlfriend, wifey or wife material.”

    Many men!

    FINALLY! A feminist admits in clear language that its not about what “society” or “people” think – Its about what men think and how THEY determine what qualifies as “wife material.”

    And what is the sex poz and feminist solution? Telling women to fuck more and men to deal with it. Aint exactly working, is it?

    http://www.vibevixen.com/2011/12/the-purity-myth/#comment-3289

    .

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Anacaona…”I naturally told her to not listen to them and start to try for her baby but there is a lot of pressure to wait in the first world as a mark of intelligence and higher status.”

    Reminds me of the first 5 minutes of the movie “Idiocracy.”

    In “The Screwtape Letters” (C S Lewis), the senior devil remarks that his greatest pleasure is when a human, upon his arrival in Hell, says, “I see now that I spent my life doing *neither* what I should *nor* what I wanted.” Sadly common, among those that hand themselves over totally to a herd.

  • Ramble

    You said “tons” of women want rough anal sex.

    Actually, he said

    it’s common knowledge that tons of women yearn for degrading rough sex

    And, on this one point, I don’t disagree with him.

    I have yet to know a girl that did not like it at least a little bit rough. And most, in my experience, loved a guy who was confident enough to go much farther.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Rough /= degrading.

      Wanting to be degraded is disordered and a sign of poor mental health. I do not believe that this characterizes a significant number of women.

  • Zach

    @everyone on living in Manhattan w/kids

    Just to show you the math behind my 400k assumption:

    $400,000 pre-tax=$250,000 post-tax (assume a blended 40% rate)

    $6,500/month for 2-3BR Apt on the UES or UWS (and here’s where I think some of you are missing the point. UES and UWS is NOT just CPW, 5th Ave and Park Ave. As I’m sure you’d know if you talk to young people, rentals in the 70s/80s Lex-1st are among the cheapest in the city, and still safe, quiet neighborhoods)= $78,000

    2x private school= $60,000/year (I went to one of these schools and it is about $30k/year, actually a bit less)

    That leaves you with $112,000 for everything else. You’re spending 31% of net income on rent. Right now I spend 37% of net income on rent, and I’m more than fine on food, clothes, etc, and I spend far, far more on entertainment (booze, dinners, etc) than I ever would when married. I also save 15% a year. And you gain on food and some others with economies of scale. I’m not saying it’s easy, and you won’t be saving much, but I believe it’s feasible.

  • Isabel

    ^ I wish we had a edit button. Fail. :|

    Sue,

    Is that the new season? The first season had more gratuitously naked breasts than I’ve ever seen anywhere.

    Season 4! Can’t say I noticed any boobs, I mainly watch for Henry.

  • Ramble

    Rough /= degrading.

    And when the girl prefers that you call her whore or slut. I am not saying that this happens on the first date, necessarily. But, over time, absolutely.

    So many girls yearn to feel complete dominance.

    Now, I am not sure if I am actually arguing with your last statement. What I have described may still NOT met your definition of “degrading”.

    But, with that one statement from that commenter that you misquoted, I will not completely disagree. (He may feel that hair-pulling, ass-spanking fucking is “degrading”.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Lots of women like to be called naughty names during sex, quite a few even like to roleplay rape. That is pretending. You ask a guy you trust to call you whore. Nothing degrading about it.

      Going home with a stranger and crying out in pain as he reams your anus is an entirely different matter. And with that I’ll stop discussing this. It’s literally making me ill.

  • Valentin

    This reminds me of something a, don’t be shocked; female feminist once said about women and their choices (be it career, friends or men). Unfortunately I don’t recall the article, I think it’s from the late 90s even.
    – “We’ve raised our girls that you can always do better, but we forgot to make them understand you can also do alot worse or not even get anything”

    Read into what you will, I’m just a messenger that happens to agree with the message.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Valentin

      I endorse that message – she sounds like a sane feminist, and would have been shouted down and moderated at any one of the feminist sites.

  • Stingray

    Being trying since August (I was waiting to get a job in USA so I started as soon as I got my first paycheck)…still nothing. I know is a bit early to panic,

    That is actually a pretty short time to be trying. May I make a suggestion? Immediately stop doing any and all research. Stress can absolutely hinder one from getting pregnant. If you can stop thinking about it, do so. Look at it as an incredibly fun time with your husband and nothing beyond that. Also, during the week you think you are ovulating – every night (and try not to think you are making a baby but just doing what husband and wife do). When we started trying I told my husband that we should just make this an incredibly fun time and we will not do one ounce of research until we have been trying for a year without success.

    Good luck, congratulations, and have fun!

  • Ted D

    “Some older dude who thinks that because they are young, they are to be preyed upon as being young and naive? They or their parents worried that their vulnerability might lead them to be taken advantage of?”

    Ummm no. How about: Some older dude who thinks that because they are young, they are not jaded by years of dealing with cads?

    I will say, that as the father of a 17yo daughter, I would be VERY wary of any older guy she brought home. However, I would meet him and see what he is about before I decided he was a pervert. I would also require that meeting to be pretty early on, like no later than date 3. (obviously before they LEAVE for date 3 since we decided here that date 3 sex is a must…)

  • Ted D

    ” “We’ve raised our girls that you can always do better, but we forgot to make them understand you can also do alot worse or not even get anything””

    THIS THIS THIS! I would counter that men and women suffer from this, but I think it is easier to SEE the affects with women. Perhaps because men give up the ideal sooner because traditionally that was their role?

  • Anna

    @ Susan
    You say men want women of equal or lower education. Do you think there are differences regarding education level, as in a buy with a Phd would want a girl without or that it mainly counts on lower levels? Furthermore, say I am in college now / doing a bachelor’s degree in business, as well as part-time courses in art etc. When I’m finished, say I get myself a cute feminine job at a gallery and put off the Master’s degree. Do you think my chances with men are better than if I would pursue an MBA?
    To be honest, getting an Msc or MBA is mostly something I see as a back up, firstly because I feel (growing up in a feminist era) that it would send signals that I am not a bimbo, secondly because I’ll always be able to support myself. It’s not so much about self-realization, which is supposed to be the reason women educate themselves.

    It’s not as if I’ll take the answer so seriously, I might drop out of school. I still feel like it’s a legitimate question as I have plenty of female friends with lots of education and experience (multiple degrees, own companies), and they simply aren’t getting the good guys. When I think about the men I know of whom are the type most women want, they have a wife or fiance with perhaps a good education, but with not top top-range job. I did a google search of all the females I know of married to or in serious LTR with attractive, educated, cultured and wealthy guys. If they went to business school, it’ll be a small unknown private place, I’ll fictionally call it “Park Avenue Business School” (if you had anything like that in the US, I don’t know, we do in London and Paris). They work in graphic design, PR for a beauty company, assistant at Hermès, part-time model etc. Some are in finance, out of those I am very curious who’s keeping their jobs after marriage and children. These women are all in their mid-late twenties btw.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      First, re what men want: I think many men do seek intelligence in a partner, especially one they plan to have children with. However, that is not the same as formal education. The guys here have said many times that advanced degrees don’t make a woman any more attractive. I can tell you that when I was in business school, the guys in my class were more interested in getting to know the undergraduates than us. If anything, they thought female MBA types were less feminine and too aggressive, and there was probably some truth to that :)

      Men also like to be dominant, which is harder to do when a woman has higher status in any realm, including education. As a result, the more educated a woman is, the harder it can be to find a mate. I’ve heard from several female PhDs who have had great difficulty finding men to date.

      The question of your own dreams for intellectual development and career achievement is another matter. You must decide what is important for you, and I certainly agree that it’s prudent to be able to support yourself no matter what.

      I don’t think you have to choose family OR career, but I do think you have to know which is a higher priority. What’s happened in the last generation is that women have focused heavily on career, figuring family would happen naturally at some future point. For some of them, it never did.

  • Ramble

    Perhaps because men give up the ideal sooner because traditionally that was their role?

    Ted,
    There are tons and tons of RomComs and other pop culture clap trap that tell girls all the things that they want to hear.

    When was the last time you saw a movie promote the idea that in a sea of entitled, tattooed, over-pierced, short haired, sweatpants-wearing, Kardashian watching fat cows a normal guy will end up with a young, slender, DEMURE girl with long hair that wants to cook for her husband and raise his children?

  • Ramble

    You ask a guy you trust to call you whore. Nothing degrading about it.

    Like I said, we are talking about definitions. I can understand that you do not want to completely agree with Rivelino (I don’t remember if that was him who you misquoted), but, forgive the guy for defining those things as being degrading.

    Going home with a stranger and crying out in pain as he reams your anus is an entirely different matter.

    That was not the quote. If he also said that, I am not going to defend it. But, getting back to the idea that the girl is “asking” for role playing is not what I was talking about.

    In my experience, the more confident the man, and the more real the experience, the more the girl got off on it. Few of these girls were bar skanks.

  • FeralEmployee

    I wonder if my sisters know about this information, I happen to have four of them. Them and my mother are all hooked onto the culture of shows like “Sex and the City”, “Grey’s Anatomy”, “Strictly Come Dancing”, “Twilight”, etc…

    My eldest sister is 34-35, a rather exemplary case of an entitlement princess; skips job every so months due to conflict, dates multiple men at the same time, borderline man hater, lazy (I fix her laptop every now an then, I clean her bathroom thoroughly each day) and aggressive over small things. I guess she’s not into children, but she seems to have retained some “girly” functions, though clearly labeled a bitch by many.

    My second eldest sister (30) has mood swings but generally sweet, too sweet, I suspect she’s an ENFP, which clashes with INTJ. She’s the type that buys vintage stuff, adores Paris. Like me she’s been bullied in high school, albeit to a lesser extent and with a close friend to rely on (even to this day). Her and relationships seem to be… non-overlapping. I doubt children are on her mind. I suspect she has minority complexes, she tends to clash with the eldest sister easily.

    The second youngest (26-27) is easy to talk with, though on an intellectual level, we’re fully adversary (if she has an opinion that deviates from the mainstream brainless status quo). She’s very focused on her work, but I’m bothered her extra-work activities consists mainly of silly youtube videos, and we tend to twindle down a road of ever increasing non-serious interaction. It’s hard to have a down to earth conversation with her, though it happens… very rarely. Again, don’t think children are on her mind.

    Youngest one actually has children on her mind, and I was surprised when she identified an old friend of me as a player, which he is. Normally that kind of knowledge is hard to find where I live. She’s probably the smartest of the bunch in this kind of areas, though she started off as a naive teenager (she used to get remarks for it).

    None of the four has ever had a serious relationship. The eldest (the witch) might be a carousel rider. Her male equivalent would be a hotheaded frat boy that tries to usurp power.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @FeralEmployee

      Yikes, what a group of sisters. Sounds like the youngest one has it the most together. I presume they were all raised in the same way, do you think the differences are just a matter of personality?

  • deti

    @ Zach:

    “I’m 6’4, in shape, good looking (although that may sound narcissictic I have much independent confirmation), Ivy-educated, and have a prestigious, highly remunerative job. I’m also very confident and witty naturally. Again, this all may sound egotistical, but I have never, ever had the slightest problem with women (maybe what you call a natural alpha).”

    You should get together with Sassy6519.

  • Ramble

    Feral, why are you cleaning her bathroom?

  • Ted D

    Anacaona – I”m not saying that women should never read romance novels. I’m saying that they should read lots MORE than romance novels. Hey, I read sci-fi and fantasy novels, but that is for entertainment. I read the news, current events, science/technology, and HUS because I’m interested and like to know enough to have an opinion. THAT is what I’m suggesting all young women do. Read a lot, about a lot of things, so that they know a little bit about everything. (of course not really everything, but you get the idea) Think: Jack of all trades, master of none – but without the effort required to even get to Jack. Maybe Jill? :P

  • Wudang

    Olive, you mentioned a seminar where they talked about the health risks of giving birth at 14. Can you tell me what those are? The reason I am asking is that I sometimes come into debates with people who see semimatriarchal tribal societies with everyone having sex with everyone as an ideal paradise and in a lot of those tribes gilrs start having sex at 11,12,13 and so have babies at 12,13,14 etc. This crowd often argues that this is positive so long as it is with other young people and often there are rules forbiding large age gaps. Now, if I can show them a statistic that shows the risk of dying when givng birth at 13,14 is double that at say 18,19 it would be a serious blow to their argument. If their “just remove all shame” argument and let everyone do as they want argument means that 14 year olds and babies die they are kinda stuck and will be forced to admit you have to use cultural pressure to forbid the youngest ones to follow what is “natural”.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Ramble

    Our house has 3 bathrooms, I clean two of them. Normally my mother cleans them (SAHM), but she’s getting older and has some problems. Because I study, I stay at home most of the time (I happen to benefit from a high IQ and skills to compensate for missing classes, which I feel hold me back anyway). I decided months ago to lift some of the burden in several places, including taking over two of the bathrooms.

    Normally my sister is supposed to clean her’s in the weekend, which she never does. She can basically clean her own everyday, but she’s an entitlement princess. Most of the evening she spends in front of the tele, complaining about her work and what clothes she’s going to buy (my room is right above it, while she lumps away, I lift weights and study or roam the internet). Furthermore, my mother prefers them to be cleaned before midday (laundry), so that’s where I jump in.

    On a positive note, it does teach discipline, yield valuable experience for later life (I want to move out in 1-2 years, with my engineering diploma and a future in a very promising future technology, I have the financial backbone), and I’m generous to help my mother. She has enough work anyhow.

  • Ramble

    Ted D,
    I have got a question for you:

    What if in, say, 20 years, we saw a dramatic rise in the number of non-romance novels read by young women. They were still watching Kardashian type programming and reading romance novels and watching RomComs, but, that they had significantly increased the amount of non-romance novels into there reading.

    And, after this transformation had happened, 20 years from now, you got the distinct notion that those girls that increased their “serious” (or, non-ridiculous) reading really didn’t want to. That, it was basically societal pressure.

    How would you feel about that?

    Or, maybe a different follow-up question: if your son was starting to get serious with one of these girls (in this scenario, your son is in his mid-20s, 20 years from now) and you are aware of her reading habits, but you are really suspicious of her genuine interest in the non-romance novels, would you hope that he find a girl that really, truly wants to read more serious material (or, maybe even dislikes romance novels…she thinks they are silly)?

  • Isabel

    Now, if I can show them a statistic that shows the risk of dying when givng birth at 13,14 is double that at say 18,19 it would be a serious blow to their argument. If their “just remove all shame” argument and let everyone do as they want argument means that 14 year olds and babies die they are kinda stuck and will be forced to admit you have to use cultural pressure to forbid the youngest ones to follow what is “natural”.

    Sorry to butt in on Olive’s field since I’m sure she knows a metric ton more than I do but if you’re interested Wudang – Google “Obstretic Fistula” or read this http://www.iheu.org/node/2994. My local Salvation Army did a pretty successful fundraiser on this a few years back which is how I learnt about it in the first place. I was actually thinking of asking Ozy about this on the sex-positive feminism thread, thanks for reminding me ha. *skulks back into shadows*

  • tvmunson

    @Everyone

    I was not disappointed to find out that I am NOT Susan Walsh’s body type. I have not thought about it at all since she posted it two days ago. We are both happily married, highly respectable people, and such thoughts would be demeaning to her, and reflect poorly on me. Her preference for the lean runner type in no way plays into my personal “zeitgeist” except perhaps to deepen what was already a somewhat unhealthy Pat Riley mancrush. Are we all entirely clear on this point?(ref Scrooge to Cratchett ref “No more coal this afternoon” after the immortal “garment” soliloquy)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Having a 60 yo on the threads gives me a nice chance to get flirted with :)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    *Virtual hug for Steph/Anacanoa*

    Yeah I know how hard that is, the disappointment every month, the worrying and stress. And then stressing that you’re stressing! Heh. Hang in there and keep trying. Keep the faith and all that. In your case you know 100% you don’t have to worry about STDs or anything like that, nor complications due to pelvic scarring / previous pregnancies like me.

    Also here are examples from my life to encourage you. My mother-in-law had my husband at 36, he’s healthy, smart and has green eyes. :P Two of my coworkers recently had babies, at 36 and 32. Lots of women get pregnant and give birth in their early 30s. And like Stingray said, it’s fun to try.

  • jack

    “made the feel pressured and guilty”

    Ever notice for how tough feminists like to pretend they are, the are amazingly vulnerable to any critical words?

    Men have been complicit in the feminist self-deception for too long. We have left women unchallenged in any way, which allows their terribly fragile egos to imagine that they are emotionally tough.

    There is no ego more fragile than that of a feminist.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men have been complicit in the feminist self-deception for too long. We have left women unchallenged in any way, which allows their terribly fragile egos to imagine that they are emotionally tough.

      Yup.

  • Zach

    @deti

    Haha, I knew it would come off as pretty vain. Maybe I should’ve just stuck with I do quite well with women. And unfortunately for Sassy I just started dating someone exclusively.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      And unfortunately for Sassy I just started dating someone exclusively.

      Oh did you make it official? That’s awesome!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Deti

    I’m offended. I’m assuming you meant that Zach and I would go well together because you think we’re both vain. If that’s the case, I don’t agree with you, but you’re entitled to your own opinion. No amount of me trying to persuade you otherwise will change that. If you think I’m vain, fine. One person’s vain is another person’s awareness of their overall attractiveness.

    @ Zach

    No hard feelings man. Congrats on the new relationship.

  • deti

    Sassy:

    You’re both aware of your overall attractiveness. I’m a big fan of assortative mating.

  • J

    @Anacoana

    Five months is not really a long to be trying, so I wouldn’t panic. However, the process of infertility treatment is a long and ardous one. If you even think you may end up needing some help, it’s better to get a head start. I’m not saying you have a problem; you very likely don’t. But it doesn’t hurt to check in with an OB/GYN, have a check-up and let them know you are trying to conceive. In the unlikely event there’s a probelm, you can start dealing with it now before desperation sets in. If not, you’re still insuring that you begin a pregnancy in the best possiible health. Even something minor like a fungal infection can affect TTC. They can also do some fertility education with you, like teachingyou to identify when you are ovulating and how to time sex. For example, many women time sex for the day of ovulation when it’s actually better to have some sperm in your Fallopian tubes ready and waiting for the egg when it comes down. That means sex a few days BEFORE ovulation. Knowing things like that can speed up the process. Good luck!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Deti

    Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying. I hate having discussions through writing sometimes because it’s hard to tell the intent of a person’s messages. We all need to have a giant skype conference one day, if that’s even possible with this many people.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Wudang,
    Shite, I’d have to look up statistics for you, but Isabel’s point is exactly what I would argue as well. 14-year-olds are still developing physically, so their bodies can’t really handle carrying babies, and many of them die in childbirth or suffer extreme fistulas that render them infertile and incontinent (and then their husbands reject them and they get sent back to live with their parents). Also, many of the babies die in childbirth as well. It’s just a bad situation.

    Just because a woman has her period and can technically reproduce doesn’t mean she will do so healthily. It’s the same thing for older women… yes, most ladies menstruate well into their 40s, sometimes even 50s, but it doesn’t mean they’ll give birth to healthy babies. That kinda kills the “natural” argument.

    Also:
    Wtf is with the argument that 11 year olds having sex is fine as long as it is with other 11 year olds? That’s a preposterous claim, from a biological standpoint, and frankly it’s not even based in reality. In many of those communities, the men are much older than the women (for example, a man of 40 might take a 14-year-old as his wife). LOL that crowd you’ve been debating with makes me laugh. They don’t seem to understand anything about health or medicine.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ramble,

    Or, maybe a different follow-up question: if your son was starting to get serious with one of these girls (in this scenario, your son is in his mid-20s, 20 years from now) and you are aware of her reading habits, but you are really suspicious of her genuine interest in the non-romance novels, would you hope that he find a girl that really, truly wants to read more serious material (or, maybe even dislikes romance novels…she thinks they are silly)?

    Oh dear, here we go down this road again. Speaking in questions as always, but this must be a discussion about what women WANT to consume from the mass media. The mass media is just giving them what they’re asking for, right? And if women start reading non-romance novels due to societal pressures, they’re still not really consuming what they want to consume, right?

    Except that you’re basing it completely on the notion that the public influences media. We talked about this already. It goes both ways. The public influences the media, and the media influences the public. Girls watch Kim Kardashian and JS, not just because that’s purely what they WANT to watch, but also because everyone else is doing it. Ya know, societal pressures.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems to be the path you’re taking with this post. If I’m completely off mark, I apologize, but you do tend to write in riddles after all.

  • J

    @SW

    Going home with a stranger and crying out in pain as he reams your anus is an entirely different matter.

    So what your saying here is that I should call Doug1 and cancel the plans he and I made for your blind date with Roissy??!! That’s gratitude for ya!

    I recall my reaction when I first read that post of Roissy’s–what a sociopathic loon! I console myself by believing that half of what he writes is fantasy for the titilation of his readers and for his own narcissistic gratification. At least I hope so.

    I agree with you 100% on the intelligent conversation. That’s the spark that fuels our attraction over time.

    Of course, it is! There are probably men for whom that’s not the case, neither you nor I would be atttracted to them so, wo what?

    Thanks for the perspective – I needed it. You have a great outlook!

    That’s because I have the luxury of not dealing with the manosphere on a near daily basis and relate to a lot of guys who don’t share these opinions. My motto, female solipsist that I am, is that if it doesn’t check out with my reality, it doesn’t really exist or at least affect me. ;-) Seriously though, while I do believe what some of these guys say about their own little slice of reality, I find a lot of it overblown. Not that I want argue with the commentariat about that.

  • http://kingofbeta.wordpress.com CaptainBeta

    This is a really eye-opening post for me. I had always figured that the worst consequence of the contemporary SMP for an average young woman was that it’s hard to find companionship because by the time you’re ready to settle down, all the betaboys have become too jaded to commit. Not to mention that given differences in sex ratios in education and stuff, most of the “hot” (high-status) guys willing to commit would be taken by then.

    I’d never even considered the wish for children, though, and that women’s biological clocks wind down this quickly. I guess if you’re a hot girl and you start searching for husband material in your early thirties, it may already be too late.

    This stuff is probably really un-PC to talk about, but I think this is something that potentially changes things in a big way. If the actual numbers about the age-related decline in fertility become widely known, it suddenly becomes a bit less rational for girls to keep holding out for Mr. Perfect. This is all very general, of course, but the averages probably work out not too far away from this.

  • Ramble

    And if women start reading non-romance novels due to societal pressures, they’re still not really consuming what they want to consume, right?

    That is not what I was saying.

    Let’s put it this way, when all your child wants to eat is junk, but you keep getting them to eat their peas and carrots, you probably don’t care all that much that the main reason they are eating their veg is because of parental pressure.

    Their health is too important.

    But, if (IF!), you had a scenario where the likes of Ted were able to influence things, would they really be that much happier? I don’t know.

    I can’t be certain that our modern culture is reflecting what girls and young women basically want, but, I suspect that it (i.e. our modern culture) is doing a fairly good job of providing for them what they want (i.e. reality shows, RomComs, sitcoms that so often resort to the female imperative, as Rollo might put it, Tyler Swift and Brittany and Miley, Vampires, etc.).

    So, the question might become: would you rather be able to see people for what they are, or pressure them to act in a way that seems preferable but is actually covering up, to a degree, who they really might be.

    Personally, I do not want Sharks to act like Dolphins. I want Sharks to act like Sharks, and I want to stay out of those shark infested waters.

  • Ramble

    And, Olive,

    Girls watch Kim Kardashian and JS, not just because that’s purely what they WANT to watch, but also because everyone else is doing it.

    Surely you see the irony.

  • Ted D

    Ramble “if your son was starting to get serious with one of these girls (in this scenario, your son is in his mid-20s, 20 years from now) and you are aware of her reading habits, but you are really suspicious of her genuine interest in the non-romance novels, would you hope that he find a girl that really, truly wants to read more serious material (or, maybe even dislikes romance novels…she thinks they are silly)?”

    Hmmm. I don’t have a problem with a woman reading stuff she isn’t interested in so that she can communicate with my son. In fact, I don’t like sports, yet take some time to keep up on current sports events so that I can communicate with my fellow males all the time. I would even go so far as to say that I would give such a woman extra credit for taking the time to educate herself DESPITE the fact that she was not interested. Knowledge is power, and simply knowing a little more gives you a little more power.

    Let me as you a question. Do you see any harm with women learning about things that don’t interest them to become well rounded people?

    Life isn’t always about what you want. THAT lesson seems to be missing from modern teaching.

  • Ramble

    In fact, I don’t like sports, yet take some time to keep up on current sports events so that I can communicate with my fellow males all the time.

    But that is not an example of societal pressure. That is a conscious choice that you make.

    Let me give another example of where society might pressure us into doing something:
    It is pretty common for young children to hit or smack another child (or adult) when they are not getting their way. Maybe they do not want to share a toy or something.

    Most parents, and society in general, will absolutely pressure that child to behave differently. (“Timmy, you can’t hit her. That is wrong. Ask nicely if you can play with her toy.”) And most of us have absolutely no problem with this. We prob. see it as a societal “good”. “Nature” be damned, we can’t go around hitting people.

    So, if (again, it is a big IF) your sons girl were reading more serious fare mainly because of societal pressure (you suspect), how would you feel about that? Especially if you thought he could find a girl that read more interesting things purely from her own volition.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Susan

    Addressed the bathroom issue a second reply in response to Ramble. As for the sisters, they’re alright, though in the dating area, if they’d choose to go for a relationship, they’ve been fed wrongful information. The youngest is indeed surprisingly smart, I think she scrounges the internet for information. She actively reads about latest events.

    The eldest however is a total lost case. Her room is a mess, her life is a mess. She assumes she has power by default over the rest of the family, the amount she can get away with is astonishing. There were times she gone under red on her bank account, despite having a job, the reason: clothing shopaholic. Every conversation about any subject is guaranteed to switch to her as the focus point within a matter of seconds.

    She has very high standards for men. She started out with a bunch of men, basically dating in parallel, only one remains now. I overheard her say: “The others have failed, guess it’s going to have to be [name]“, with an attitude reducing the guy to an object that ought to be lucky she saw anything in him. She talks about every little thing she doesn’t like about them. The only positive things that have come out of her mouth concern status and wealth.

    She doesn’t realize she’s not all that, she has convinced herself she is all that.

  • Ramble

    Do you see any harm with women learning about things that don’t interest them to become well rounded people?

    Harm? Not really. But I am looking to specify here: a girl making a personal choice versus a girl doing something because of societal pressure. And, all of this could be applied to guys as well.

    But, personally, I would much, MUCH rather be with a girl who was making choices for herself, from her own interests as opposed to a girl who was reacting to societal pressure.

    Think about all of those girls that got married back in the olden days that really didn’t want to, but felt that they had to. Then, after society started changing and after certain laws changed, they started divorcing their husbands en masse.

  • Ramble

    Crap, I fucked up the quotes.

    Here is the reply:
    Harm? Not really. But I am looking to specify here: a girl making a personal choice versus a girl doing something because of societal pressure. And, all of this could be applied to guys as well.

    But, personally, I would much, MUCH rather be with a girl who was making choices for herself, from her own interests as opposed to a girl who was reacting to societal pressure.

    Think about all of those girls that got married back in the olden days that really didn’t want to, but felt that they had to. Then, after society started changing and after certain laws changed, they started divorcing their husbands en masse.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    @ 206 Jason December 15, 2011 at 10:59 pm; That accepts some html tags, but accepted tags have changed several times and dis not tell what tags are accepted.

    205 Ceer December 15, 2011 at 10:29 pm wrote:

    [quote]quote test[/quote]

    because I failed in the last post.

    Well

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    produces

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    / Kari Hurtta

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    [edit ]

    @ 206 Jason December 15, 2011 at 10:59 pm; That accepts some html tags, but accepted tags have changed several times and dis not tell what tags are accepted.

    205 Ceer December 15, 2011 at 10:29 pm wrote:

    [quote]quote test[/quote]

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    produces

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    / Kari Hurtta

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “So, if (again, it is a big IF) your sons girl were reading more serious fare mainly because of societal pressure (you suspect), how would you feel about that? Especially if you thought he could find a girl that read more interesting things purely from her own volition.”

    Well, if they get along otherwise I honestly wouldn’t see it as a big deal. I’m not a “ends justifies the means” kind of guy, but in this case the “ends” is a woman that can have intelligent conversations, so no harm no foul.

    Look at it this way: When I was a kid, I didn’t want to practice playing piano. I was (for the most part) forced by my mother to practice and go to lessons, and now I greatly appreciate the skill it gave me. My hope for a society that “forces” young women to read things they are not interested in is that they will eventually appreciate the versatility it gave them. Ideally though, I’d like to see them by and large simply educate themselves because they see the value and choose to do it on their own. Even if they aren’t interested, the CHOICE to learn does indeed signify somethings to me. Not only that they are intelligent, but that they are willing to put effort into less than exciting endeavors to accomplish a goal. So now we have a smart young women with drive, focus, and ambition. THAT sounds like a great basis for a wife, don’t you think?

  • Ramble

    I was (for the most part) forced by my mother to practice and go to lessons, and now I greatly appreciate the skill it gave me.

    Fair enough.

    My hope for a society that “forces” young women to read things they are not interested in is that they will eventually appreciate the versatility it gave them.

    You seem to think that girls need this more than guys, no? Why? Do you think that the modern young girl is more vacant, or what?

  • Ramble

    So now we have a smart young women with drive, focus, and ambition. THAT sounds like a great basis for a wife, don’t you think?

    How about: Slender, Demure, Feminine, and Driven to raise a family?

    Now that sounds like a good basis for a wife, don’t you think?

  • Ted D

    Not at all. I think its good advice for men and women, but this site is primarily targeted at women trying to find men for LTR/marriage.

    I feel like many younger people are simply very superficial and shallow. I’m sure I was much less involved in the world when I was in my early 20’s, but I can’t ever recall being as out of touch with what is going on around me as many younger people I deal with today are. At least not once I graduated from high school and started living on my own. Of course, that right there may be part of the answer. Kids don’t really graduate from HS and go live on their own. Sure, they may go to college, but many are still living on Mom and Dad’s money.

    I think as a country, we are simply becoming less intellectual by the day, and instead are pandering to the lowest common denominator in terms of media content. And then we wonder why we are no longer the innovators of the world. We cannot create if we have no creative people. Thinking is part of creating, but we don’t seem to teach or value “critical thinking” skills anymore.

  • Ted D

    “How about: Slender, Demure, Feminine, and Driven to raise a family?”

    Actually I’m not a fan of skinny women. Its hard to define skinny, but for me most Victoria’s secret models are simply too thin. They kinda look like I might break them. :P

    Demure – Eh, not something I truly look for, but it is nice to have.

    Feminine – surely, but that can be defined lots of ways. I’m not into “girly” girls, and in fact all of my LTRs have been with women that were Tom Boys growing up. (I simply HATE women that take hours to get ready. The worst was my ex-wife, and she could usually pull together her “evening” look in about 30 minutes) That being said, I highly desire a woman that understands she IS a women, and isn’t afraid to show it. I LOVE sensuality!

    Driven to raise a family – of course this depends on if you WANT a family, but if so then yes that would be important.

    I tend to focus more on the character of a women and less on how she looks. Of course I want a woman I find attractive, but I guess my priority is not on “the look”.

    My list:
    Intellegent
    Knowledgeable – not necessarily college like, but well read
    Kind
    Loving and nurturing
    dependable
    faithful
    dedicated
    focused
    driven – not as in “high powered lawyer” driven, but willing to put in the effort to accomplish a goal driven
    Good sense of humor – I’m a wise ass, no one survives around me long without a good sense of humor.
    Classy – more specifically, the ability to BE classy. My real preference is a down home comfortable women that “cleans up nice”.
    Self Aware – Someone that knows themselves and isn’t afraid to be honest to themselves about their faults and be willing to fix them.

    I can go on, but you get the idea. Again, I want a women I am attracted to, but once attraction is established the rest comes into play. Attraction is not difficult for me. I see dozens of women daily I am attracted to. Not so many that meet most of the list above though.

  • Ramble

    Not at all. I think its good advice for men and women, but this site is primarily targeted at women trying to find men for LTR/marriage.

    OK, I was just curious.

    Ted, as for what you said about the younger generation, well, if it makes you feel any better, I have met quite a few people (ages 20-30) in my field who are quite intelligent and curious about the greater world and not the least bit vapid. Granted, almost all of those people are men.

    I think as a country, we are simply becoming less intellectual by the day, and instead are pandering to the lowest common denominator in terms of media content.

    I have not seen this as an American phenomenon. Personally, I have also see this in Australia, Italy, the UK, and other places.

  • Ted D

    So maybe its a Western Lifestyle thing? I don’t have much experience outside of the U.S. so I simply don’t know.

  • Ramble

    Actually I’m not a fan of skinny women.

    Who said skinny?

    How about this: Not Fat.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – its all good. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

    FWIW I am a fan of curvy women. I’ve been with women that were as short as 5’3″ and as tall as 5’9″ (she is WAY taller than me in 5″ heels!) but all of them were curvy. (or the term I use is either “thick” or “child bearing”, LOL)

    And I error on the heavier side if it comes down to it. I can forgive a bit of extra cushion, but bones showing/poking through skin is just gross.

  • Ramble

    … but bones showing/poking through skin is just gross.

    It is pretty rare to NOT hear that strawman when someone puts in a preference for slender girls.

    There are very few guys out there that really like that anorexic look.

    There is a reason why you see few examples of skin-and-bone girls on popular glamour/soft-porn websites. Little interest.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ramble,

    So, the question might become: would you rather be able to see people for what they are, or pressure them to act in a way that seems preferable but is actually covering up, to a degree, who they really might be.

    Personally, I do not want Sharks to act like Dolphins. I want Sharks to act like Sharks, and I want to stay out of those shark infested waters.

    Makes sense. But what if the dolphins are acting like sharks? In other words, what if it’s not that women/girls are consuming what they WANT to consume, but they are following the herd? Are they really happy now? Would they be happier if they stopped acting like bimbos?

    My guess is yes and yes. You should meet most girls I’ve been friends with. Never met more miserable, grouchy, bitchy people in my life. Sure, they thrive off of acting like Kim Kardashian, they love stabbing people in the back. But then they feel like crap about it, especially when it comes back to bite them in the butt. BTW I’m describing my old college self too.

    You could make a similar analogy about the SMP, actually. Women love the idea of sleeping with alphas who stroke their egos. That is their base instinct. But does it make them happy to sleep with a bunch of alphas? Hell no, it makes them feel like crap. Women have been told a bunch of lies about what will really make them happy. From sex-poz feminism to Disney Princess hype to Say Yes to the Dress, women have no idea what really would make them happy anymore. Have you met very many happy women from the millenial generation? I have not. They are not happy about the SMP (as much as they are screwing it up for themselves), and they are not happy about their friends acting like Kim Kardashian.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    In the second paragraph, “yes and yes” should be “no and yes.” Oops.

  • Ted D

    I’m not trying to put up any strawman arguments here. I’m just talking about my preference.

    Christina Hendricks is a pretty good example of what I think is hot body wise. Even when she is a bit bigger than normal, she still looks amazing! Like she could take a LOT of rough tumbling and still walk away without a limp.

    Most Victoria’s Secret models are just too thin and frail looking for me. Sure, the fake boobs look great, but without a wide ass to balance it out, it looks all off balance to me.

    I’ve been told I tend to like the same build often referred to as “ghetto booty”. I’m white and never lived in the “ghetto”, but from what I’ve seen of rap videos, it may be true…

  • tvmunson

    @Susan #269

    And the blogosphere allows me to maintain my first rule of flirtation (that hit a certain sonorous tone-like it) 1) never, never move into a woman’s physical space until she unequivocally indicates that she is receptive to it. Whatever distance exists at the initial encounter, maintain it. If you’ve walked over, hold your ground-close enough so she can hear what you say, but no closer. She’ll move if someone intrudes,or, if that isn’t appropriate, she’ll make it clear she wants you to. All of this sounds rather quaint here, like discussing the rudimentary steps of the tango while all around everyone is “freak” dancing. I haven’t flirted since the Carter administration; you’ve been kind to this mesomorph jogger.

  • Ramble

    WOOPS!

    Let me try that again:

    In other words, what if it’s not that women/girls are consuming what they WANT to consume, but they are following the herd?

    What is the herd? The herd of other girls? If so, who are they following?

    When you apply this kind of thinking, at some point it must imply that:
    1.) A large percentage of girls can easily be “brainwashed” by Hollywood/Madison-Ave, 0r
    2.) That some girls are following other girls. But those other girls are making choices for themselves.

    Not only do I find option slightly implausible, but really disrespectful of girls.

    But, if it were true, then it would be true that Hollywood could get them to watch Nova and Frontline on PBS and listen to Bob Dylan, Miles Davis and B.B. King. Yet, I guarantee you, that would not happen.

    Hollywood and Madison Ave try like hell to get girls to watch, listen-to and buy all sorts of things and have tons and tons of failures. And, it is because, they can not control (or brainwash them into) watching and listening to what they don’t want to. Those girls, the ones that make up the herd that is being followed, make choices.

    Now, about how those girls feel after watching this or doing that? I can believe what you are saying.

    I know that I feel awful after some nights of drinking, yet, I choose to do it anyway. Same for eating some sweets. I don’t have a problem with either, so, no big deal.

    Women love the idea of sleeping with alphas who stroke their egos. That is their base instinct. But does it make them happy to sleep with a bunch of alphas? Hell no, it makes them feel like crap.

    And men will sleep with fat pigs and feel ashamed. And, yet, they still do it.

    Just because you feel like crap after some choice, does not mean that the choice was not yours.

    However, I do not disagree that there has not been a mass of misinformation about all sorts of things. No argument here.

    But if you are going to try and sell me on the idea that girls did not absolutely fall in love with Britney and Sex and the City and other crap like that from Pop Culture, then I will call you nuts.

    Regardless of how some may have felt after watching/listening-to these things, these made these choices in droves.

    Have you met very many happy women from the millenial generation? I have not.

    But they have been freer to make their wn choices than they have ever been. Again, I don’t disagree with their ability to satisfy their desires, but, I also believe that their is a reason that parents, historically, were very interested in basically controlling what their daughters did. In general, they did not trust them to make choices for themselves.

    They are not happy about the SMP (as much as they are screwing it up for themselves), and they are not happy about their friends acting like Kim Kardashian.

    In any kingdom there can be only one princess.

  • Ramble

    I’m just talking about my preference.

    I understand. And, almost any time the preference is for “thick” girls with “curves”, they will trot out that they don’t want bones sticking out.

    Even if the person they are replying used descriptions like, Slender and Not Fat.

  • Ramble

    Christina Hendricks is a pretty good example of what I think is hot body wise.

    Have you ever noticed that you can not find a single recent image of her showing her midsection?

    That may sound like an odd piece of trivia to bring up, but think about it for a moment. Can you name one other high profile woman who is constantly referred to as a sex symbol where you can not find an image (via Google Images) of her in, say, a bikini, a lingerie shoot, a Maxim/FHM shoot showing her bare mid-section?

    I don’t mean nudity, per se, just the mid section.

    My guess: she is sorta fat. That is, she does not want her midsection being shown.

    Many years ago she did a non-nude shoot for playboy that showed her in a bikini and she looked very different (size-wise)

  • Anna

    @ Ramble. You are right, I think she looks good in Mad Men but you only ever see her in dresses with a tucked-in waist. A bikini or just casual clothes would be very different. Personally I think she is too big and she doesn’t look healthy IMO.

    Cannot disagree with people’s preferences though, each to their own =) But I don’t think she is a better rolemodel than say, Candice Swanepoel is. And it annoys me when she is compared to Marilyn Monroe. Or when slightly fuller women are compared to Marilyn at all. MM had a different appeal, she was way slimmer than CH and she was not famous for being plus size at all.

  • Ramble

    Anna, personally, I am not making any comments on her health. It is my understanding that a girl can be about her size and be perfectly healthy.

  • Anna

    I am sure she may be physically healthy, from the way it looks to ME, she looks like she consumes too much. I’m not saying she has health problems, but people who eat around 2000 kcals a day usually don’t look like that.
    Of course some find it attractive, but I don’t think she’s a role model.

  • Ramble

    2000 kcals per day? For a girl?

    I thought the number was closer to 1200-1500? Granted, it has been a long time since I was reading about nutrition.

  • Doug1

    Susan—

    Of course, women may choose to marry men with less education than themselves, but this seems unlikely to happen in large numbers for several reasons:
    • Women generally prefer men with equal or higher status.
    • Men generally prefer women with equal or lower status.
    • Society is stratified by socioeconomic status.

    I could see marriages between college educated grade school teachers, nurses, or lower level government workers marrying say contractors or plumbers with their own business who employ another couple of plumbers, and so on being viable. There simply aren’t may good paying or decent status jobs for women outside of the arts and acting that that don’t require a BA that I can think of, but there are for men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      I could see marriages between college educated grade school teachers, nurses, or lower level government workers marrying say contractors or plumbers with their own business who employ another couple of plumbers, and so on being viable. There simply aren’t may good paying or decent status jobs for women outside of the arts and acting that that don’t require a BA that I can think of, but there are for men.

      That’s a good point. Actually, I know some young teachers and they are not as status driven. They do go out with working class guys now. So I’m not sure that will be a change, but at least that’s one group that won’t necessarily have as much difficulty marrying in the next 20 years.

  • Anna

    It’s supposed to be 1800-1900 a day for a woman. American daily average consumption is 3,830 calories per person. (It’s not divided between sexes, but generally American women are just as fat as American men).

    If a woman ate 1300 kcals a day, she’d look more like Gisele Bündchen.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Oops. I guess it shows how out of touch I am that I didn’t know Christina Hendricks and had to look her up. I thought she was one of the plus-sized models often derided in the manosphere; did not know she was a lead character in a TV show.

    Anna, I don’t see how she looks unhealthy. She looks quite healthy to me. Cameras tend to flatten and add weight. Having known some models before, they look very gaunt in person, but lovely in photos. This Hendricks woman probably looks just fine in person.

  • Doug1

    A recent survey found that women dramatically underestimate how much fertility declines with age. They estimated that a 30 year-old had an 80% chance of getting pregnant in one try. The real likelihood is 30%. They also thought a 40 year-old woman would have a 40% success rate, while those odds are less than 10%.

    Women are surprised to learn this information and they’re angry about it. One woman had this to say about her 10 year struggle to conceive:

    “I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over. You tell us, “Oh, your fertile years rapidly decline in your mid-20s.” Well, if I’m not dating anyone, and I want to have a family, what is that information going to do for me?”

    Barbara Collura heads the National Infertility Association. She says the first thing women say is “Why didn’t anybody tell me this?”

    As to the quote, talk about an entitlement complex!!! It’s biology sister.

    As to the last graph, the answer is because feminism suffuses our media and universities.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      As to the quote, talk about an entitlement complex!!! It’s biology sister.

      As to the last graph, the answer is because feminism suffuses our media and universities.

      Haha, I thought that quote was hilarious, I had to put it in. That’s some muddled thinking. I’d say she’s not very bright, but in fact, she’s an accomplished filmmaker.

  • Doug1

    “A decade ago, a campaign by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine sparked a vicious backlash. Ads on public buses in several big cities featured a baby bottle shaped like an hourglass, to warn women their time was running out. But women’s rights groups called it a scare tactic that left women feeling pressured and guilty.”

    So now they’re feeling barren and depressed instead.

    It was a scare tactic and a thoroughly reasonable one. Women past their mid 20’s should feel pressured and guilty for not finding a marriage partner.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women past their mid 20′s should feel pressured and guilty for not finding a marriage partner.

      Wow, that’s a little harsh. There but for the grace of God go I.

  • Anna

    Hope: This discussion is somewhat on the side, but I actually think it’s the opposite. In the TV show and on most photos, she’s squeezed into dressed which creates a waist and hides fat. There are a few swimsuit photos, and seeing them I would characterize her as overweight. I don’t know what her BMI is, but I’d assume it’s quite high.

    I’m not criticizing anyone for finding her attractive, but I don’t think she is any more of a role model for what young girls should aspire to than a thin model would be. Obesity is a much much greater problem than anorexia after all. The average American child needs a bit more “thin” pressure, sorry to say.

  • Doug1

    Isabel—

    I don’t get the college ratio thing btw. Is it because the men are actually earning less than their hypothetical wives or is it just because they don’t have the piece of paper?

    Two main reasons I think. The first is that while in the 60’s to 80’s universities were mostly admitting on SAT (IQ proxy more or less) scores and some on grades, now it’s mostly on grades and some on SAT’s at many schools, mostly to help out black and Hispanic diversity sort of thing, but also to help out girls’ admissions. Guys tend to be more rebellious and less good little students unless it comes really easy to them (it did to me) (this partly helps them with many high school girls) whereas girls tend to be more obedient and conformist and to follow their teachers bidding on time spent on homework and the like

    The second is while just about all well paying jobs with decent status for women require a college degree, this is way less true for guys. Guys can become carpenters and then construction contractors, plumbers and then own a plumbing business employing several others, machinists, and so on.

  • Doug1

    In our most elite colleges though the sex ratio is pretty close to even.

    It’s the lower down state universities were it’s really lopsided.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    Women want high status jobs, and they want men who have even higher (or equal) status jobs.

    That certainly argues for NOT giving women affirmative action in any form anywhere.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Anna, I am a big believer in good diet and exercise. But a bit of fertility fat on a woman is not a detriment to health. A very skinny woman on a restrictive diet is not good for childbearing. For me personally as a small-framed, short Asian, 19 BMI is fine, but for a Caucasian woman of different height and build, that may be in the starving underweight range.

    I definitely agree that obesity is an issue and should be tackled as such, but over-focus on celebrities in either direction is a bad idea. Or maybe I’m just saying that because I didn’t know who the heck she was.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Doug,
    On your second point I agree. On your first, I don’t. IMO SAT scores are a stupid way to predict a student’s success in college. College is about work ethic, not just smarts. My roomie and I had approx. the same SAT score (both girls, by the way). I graduated Phi Beta Kappa with honors. She graduated with no honors, average low B student (probably should’ve been a C student). I had a work ethic, she did not. Also I had a science-y major (I didn’t get a B.S., but apparently environmental studies majors at my school had the second lowest average GPA, only higher than physics). She was an english major. So. Her major was not harder than mine.

    Also, I knew a dude who got 2200 on his SATs, something really high like that, and he failed out his senior year. It really is about the work ethic, you can’t rely on smarts alone.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    In our most elite colleges though the sex ratio is pretty close to even.

    It’s the lower down state universities were it’s really lopsided.

    NYU’s ratio is 66% female, 33% male. I’d consider NYU fairly elite, though it’s not Ivy League.

  • Doug1

    Revelino–

    so anyway, i figured since you were doing such a great job, i would stop by and help you out and solve this issue for all your young female readers in their early 20s.

    it’s an easy answer, but one not mentioned in the essay, and here it is:

    marry a guy 10 years older.

    it doesn’t surprise me that this solution isn’t mentioned in your essay — still haven’t checked the comments, but wouldn’t surprise me if it wasn’t mentioned there either. it doesn’t surprise me because the feminists have done such a great job of shaming men when want to marry “significantly” younger — and of persuading women that these types of men are dangerous and disgusting — that the terms “pedophile” and “pervert” are thrown around frequently and without remorse.

    but that IS the answer. the feminists are wrong, once again.

    i’ve said it several times. a young women of 22 — or say, 24, to be more realistic — who is ready to stop playing the cut throat SMP game, and is seriously looking to get married and start a family, she should DEFINITELY look to date men in their early 30s, cause that’s when a lot of THEM are getting tired of dating and playing around, and nothing will persuade a 34 year old man to want to “settle down” quicker than the prospect of banging a hot, young 24 year old girl exclusively, by law.

    Yeah that’s what I advice around here all the time, though I haven’t until now on this thread.

    Men don’t have the law on their side just because they get married though. Not at all in fact and in lots of ways the opposite, as Susan partly alluded to.

  • Ramble

    But a bit of fertility fat on a woman is not a detriment to health. A very skinny woman on a restrictive diet is not good for childbearing.

    Hope, her really fertile years are behind her. And Anna, if I can speak for her, was in no way saying that a “very skinny woman on a restrictive diet” should be a role model.

    Just Not Fat.

    For anyone that read the exchange between Ted D and I will see this common strawman being trotted out.

  • Anacaona

    Good luck, congratulations, and have fun!

    Thanks :)

    I”m not saying that women should never read romance novels. I’m saying that they should read lots MORE than romance novels. Hey, I read sci-fi and fantasy novels, but that is for entertainment. I read the news, current events, science/technology, and HUS because I’m interested and like to know enough to have an opinion. THAT is what I’m suggesting all young women do. Read a lot, about a lot of things, so that they know a little bit about everything. (of course not really everything, but you get the idea) Think: Jack of all trades, master of none – but without the effort required to even get to Jack. Maybe Jill?

    Fair enough all my romance reader friends read a lot of other different things, I don’t think I ever meet a reader that doesn’t grow into trying other genres though. And many of them started to become readers after they read romance as introductory reading and from them started to challenge themselves with new and different stuff, just FYI.

    Also here are examples from my life to encourage you. My mother-in-law had my husband at 36, he’s healthy, smart and has green eyes. Two of my coworkers recently had babies, at 36 and 32. Lots of women get pregnant and give birth in their early 30s. And like Stingray said, it’s fun to try.
    Thanks I appreciate the hugs and encouragement.

    Five months is not really a long to be trying, so I wouldn’t panic. However, the process of infertility treatment is a long and ardous one. If you even think you may end up needing some help, it’s better to get a head start. I’m not saying you have a problem; you very likely don’t. But it doesn’t hurt to check in with an OB/GYN, have a check-up and let them know you are trying to conceive. In the unlikely event there’s a probelm, you can start dealing with it now before desperation sets in. If not, you’re still insuring that you begin a pregnancy in the best possiible health. Even something minor like a fungal infection can affect TTC. They can also do some fertility education with you, like teachingyou to identify when you are ovulating and how to time sex. For example, many women time sex for the day of ovulation when it’s actually better to have some sperm in your Fallopian tubes ready and waiting for the egg when it comes down. That means sex a few days BEFORE ovulation. Knowing things like that can speed up the process. Good luck!
    I had used the ovulation test for three months now (not the patient type again and I’m not getting any younger) and I had actually timed sex a few days before it, again nothing. I’m definitely calling a doctor after the third time fails and see what he says. Like you say I really want to know sooner than later to know what do to next, it could be simple bad luck or it could be something else, not taking any chances. Thanks for the advice much appreciated. :)

  • http://oldtimemoviereview.blogspot.com jamie

    But if you are going to try and sell me on the idea that girls did not absolutely fall in love with Britney and Sex and the City and other crap like that from Pop Culture, then I will call you nuts.

    Ok. I gotta come to the defensive here. I didn’t LOVE satc, but I did watch some of it. And it didn’t make me feel like crap. It made me feel infinitely superior to that sad sack of shit, Carrie Bradshaw. (I have a hard time believing there are THAT many men who want to bang a grown woman who wears tutus in public and looks like a foot; also, there is no way a freelance writer living in Manhattan has a closet full of Manolos unless she’s doing freelance blowjobs on the side. But it’s all suspension of disbelief. Just because it’s crap doesn’t mean it’s not good TV.)

  • Stingray

    Anacoana,

    WARNING – TMI everyone. You have been warned.

    After you husband is *ahem* finished sit in the bed for a bit with your legs in the air. It might sound ridiculous, but I remember watching a documentary about conceiving and the opening into the fallopian tubes is actually higher than where the sperm collects when you’re lying down. I can’t remember any of the details but I did this and it worked for me. I know one person’s anecdotal evidence is not a lot, but what do you have to lose?

  • J

    Yeah I know how hard that is, the disappointment every month, the worrying and stress. And then stressing that you’re stressing!

    When I was TTC, I lived my life in two week increments: waiting to ovulate and then hoping not to get my period. It was hellish. It’s hard not to think about, but try not to let TTC rule your life.

  • Ramble

    Ok. I gotta come to the defensive here. I didn’t LOVE satc…

    You do understand that we are generalizing, right?

    The idea that all 150 million American females had the same exact response is just ridiculous.

    The point that was being made was that those that were watching SATC and listening to Britney were doing so because they wanted to. They were making choices.

    You, in not liking it, also made a choice. You were not brainwashed into liking it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I don’t think she’s fat, but IF you think she is, that is your perogative. I get that some men like their women skinny. My husband likes it, and that’s a good thing for me, because I was that “skinny woman on a restrictive diet,” especially after my previous pregnancy. I dropped quit a bit of weight rather quickly, and I’m pretty proud of that. I was not trying to strawman Anna, just saying that I wouldn’t do that sort of thing when/if I get pregnant again.

    I’ve been called boyish by other men who are probably into big boobs like Hendricks has. She’s 36, she may be less fertile than at 26, but that doesn’t mean she’s infertile. Thus, the fat on her is appealing to those men who quite like that type, who likely see it as a sign that she has enough fat reserves on her to carry a pregnancy through even in case of a famine — yes, unlikely in today’s society, but the hindbrain has its preferences.

    This link might also interest you:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5157964.stm

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh—

    They either stepped off the track, as I did, or hired someone else to raise their kids. I wasn’t surprised when, at my 25th Wharton reunion, the female heavy hitters were mostly unmarried and none had kids. The female grads with families were all doing interesting things, but of their own design, like I do here. The same is true of the Harvard Business School women’s group I’m in. Out of two dozen women, only 3 women with kids at home are working full time. Do the women lawyers and doctors you know work full time? Because I know a bunch too and they’ve all gone independent, scaled back from the ER to a college health office, or something along those lines, finances permitting.

    To me this suggests that professional graduate schools favor men over women for admittance, on a probabilistic basis. Elite universities depend on their graduates giving towards their endowments, and men do that vastly more than women. It also suggests to me that employers or professionals tend to do the same thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To me this suggests that professional graduate schools favor men over women for admittance, on a probabilistic basis. Elite universities depend on their graduates giving towards their endowments, and men do that vastly more than women. It also suggests to me that employers or professionals tend to do the same thing.

      They probably don’t do it as much as they’d like to, or is warranted, because of the political implications.

  • J

    I had used the ovulation test for three months now (not the patient type again and I’m not getting any younger) and I had actually timed sex a few days before it, again nothing.

    I wouldn’t panic over that. You were doing it right, but it may take a few more months of that.

    Thanks for the advice much appreciated.

    Not a problem. As I’ve said, I went through a lot of stuff with this. I I can save someone else some pain, I feel like that suffering meant something.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    @Stingray
    Heh I’m an expert in the art of post coital legs in the air. Really I’m mentioning this now because I’m at the point were I do think this would be more challenging than expected and since I had been babbling about BABIES! since I started posting here I though it was fair to say why my beloved BABIES! are not happening. Lurkers love to accuse us of being feminists plants so is better for them to know that I am actually trying, is just not working so far, so time to call the experts IMO.

    When I was TTC, I lived my life in two week increments: waiting to ovulate and then hoping not to get my period. It was hellish. It’s hard not to think about, but try not to let TTC rule your life.
    And believing every time your body does something different you might be pregnant? Welcome to the hell known as BABIES RABIES! I know I’m working part time, working in my novel, handling two blogs and doing the marketing of my beautician’s business, plus moving to our new house. Trust me I try to fill my life with as much things as possible so as to forget about the TTC. But stupid brain wanders to that when I’m doing nothing anyway,which is something the bastard always do to me, I sadly have an over active brain so yeah, working on not letting rule my life. At least is giving me great material for my writing, you have to make lemonade out of lemons I guess.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, I don’t think she’s fat, but IF you think she is, that is your perogative.

    What I am saying is this: whatever anyone thinks of Christina Hendricks, can you think of another woman who gets mentioned as often as she does as being sexy, yet you can not find a single image of her showing her bare midsection?

    Here is my guess: She is more than happy to show off her cleavage but she does not want anyone seeing her midsection. I am guessing that she is not that proud of that part of her body.

  • Anna

    @ Hope
    Interesting article =) Although I find 61 to be low a number of men to have much of a meaning.

    “A study of 61 male university students found those who were hungry were attracted to heavier women than those who were satiated.
    The hungry men also paid much less attention to a woman’s body shape and regarded less curvy figures as more attractive. ”

    Interesting! So hungry men weren’t interested in curves or femininity, just fat. Or they just had lower standards, perhaps the basic lusts (food and sex) are somewhat correlated. They just know they want something. Something fat.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    I think we are derailing this post a lot and probably Susan’s audience doesn’t care that much about TTC anyway so I will be opening a thread in the forum for anyone that want to comment or just to wish me some much needed baby dust.
    See you at the forum!

  • http://oldtimemoviereview.blogspot.com jamie

    Re: Christina Hendricks being fat

    I gotta defend this one too, since I have that body type and I happen to think she’s gorgeous. She looks fat in pictures because she has massive boobs. You probably won’t see her in a bikini because bikinis don’t hold boobs like that. I recently quit bikinis because they just wouldn’t stay on (I’m a swimmer who does a 500 in under 10 minutes so that’s partly why) and my boobs are a lot smaller than hers. I’ve seen her in a bathing suit, she’s got a tiny waist and no rolls. Yes, she has fat and could survive a famine, but it’s where it’s supposed to be.

    And yes, her BMI is probably high. Hourglass types tend to be heavier than they look. I’m glad she made that body type fashionable again. Now I can finally stop crying myself to sleep over my giant ass.

  • Malia

    ——If a woman ate 1300 kcals a day, she’d look more like Gisele Bündchen.—–

    Please. She’s genetically blessed. If a woman ate that per day she’d be slim, but that doesn’t mean she’d have the proportions of a supermodel.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OK, I’m running out, but I’ve got to weigh in here (no pun).

      First, Gisele Bundchen is built like a chopstick. She has a waist to hip ratio of nearly .9 (reportedly) and her boobs are fake. I think she looks like a tranny myself. I also find her face mannish and unattractive.

      I wrote a post on Christina Hendricks after the New York Times actually photoshopped her to make her look fatter.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/25/whatguyswant/this-is-why-women-have-eating-disorders/

      Check out the comments – only 52 lol. The guys essentially say she’s smoking hot.

      I read an interview with her – she was originally a skinny runway model. She put on weight in Italy, looked at herself in the mirror, and decided it was a big improvement.

      Personally, I think she’s sex on wheels. So does every male character on Mad Men, by the way.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        One more thing:

        gb

        Check out this site about feminine beauty – a feature called The Transsexual Parade of Victoria’s Secret models. Here’s the part about Gisele:

        http://www.femininebeauty.info/victorias-secret-gisele-bundchen

        The site is fascinating for anyone interested in how standards of beauty have changed over the years. Bottom line: American women have gotten a lot more masculine.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I don’t follow pop culture much, so I don’t know about her media portrayal aside from a cursory glance at her page on Wikipedia. You say that if she doesn’t show her midsection, maybe she’s got something to hide. What does it matter to you? Why get worked up over a celebrity. They’ve got handlers, media consultants, stylists, lawyers, publicists, etc. It’s all a dog and pony show.

    My guess is that she is selling a fashion style that is becoming quite popular, and with a large number of women who are on the hefty side, having her be this “sexy” woman wearing various dresses to show off her figure make clothesmakers happy. I don’t follow fashion much, but I do know they want women to keep spending year after year on the new trends.

    Anna, it’s something I noticed in personal experience, too. Often men from upper class backgrounds really love super skinny girls, while men from lower class backgrounds love some “meat on the bones.” It may also be shaped by some early sexual imprinting. There is a class division for obesity rates, too.

  • Ramble

    You probably won’t see her in a bikini because bikinis don’t hold boobs like that.

    Forget bikinis. Anything.

    Can you name any girl as well known as her (or anywhere near as well know as she is) as being a sex symbol where you can not find a single image showing her midriff taken in the last 10 years?

    That is all I am asking.

  • Anna

    @ Malia. It’s obvious from the conversation that I mean she’d be the weight class of Gisele, not physically look like her, legs and all. It was a response to Ramble believing the average woman should be eating 1300 kcals a day, when in fact that is much less and a woman eating that amount would weigh less than average (and look very much different than Christina Hendricks). I thought that was given out of the context. I can see there is a lot of resentment towards slim women and in particular models here. I have never said that it easy to gain a supermodel shape – there is a reason why there are so few of them.

  • Malia

    What I am saying is this: whatever anyone thinks of Christina Hendricks, can you think of another woman who gets mentioned as often as she does as being sexy, yet you can not find a single image of her showing her bare midsection?

    Here is my guess: She is more than happy to show off her cleavage but she does not want anyone seeing her midsection. I am guessing that she is not that proud of that part of her body.

    This still going on?

    Listen. Christina Hendricks is probably outside the “normal” BMI for her height. She wears compression garments whenever she’s “on” whether it’s on camera or on the red carpet (FWIW nearly every female celebrity wears at least 1 pair of spanx, most double up, even the thin ones like Gwynneth Paltrow). So there, she may have an hourglass, but her boobs are not playing tricks on anyone’s eyes.

    Having said that, a LOT of people still find her sexy, me included.

    But as far as her not being a role model!??!

    Everyone is not built for, nor has the genes for, a “gisele” frame, despite the obesity problems in this country.

  • Ramble

    You say that if she doesn’t show her midsection, maybe she’s got something to hide. What does it matter to you?

    I can’t say that I am worked up about it, but, she definitely seems to be the woman du jour that the various media types put forth as being a “real” woman. And Dead Sexy.

    And, I have no problem if anyone finds her attractive.

    But, without exaggerating, I can not think of a single attractive girl under the age of 40 that I can not find a picture of online showing her midsection (it usually takes 2 seconds). And, if that is the case for this truly beautiful, radiant sexy being as she is depicted (I understand that you were not that aware of Mad Men), then, I find that really interesting.

    My bet is that she likes her cleavage but that she does not like her belly, and possibly ass and legs.

    Basically, I hate Political Correctness. And she is definitely being put forth as a “Real” woman…and Really Sexy.

    However, she seems like a very nice person.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      ba

      Personally, I think it’s no contest. She went from a 7 to a 9.

  • Ramble

    “This still going on?”

    Malia, this did not start that long ago.

  • Malia

    It’s obvious from the conversation that I mean she’d be the weight class of Gisele, not physically look like her

    I understood your meaning but a lot of people don’t have that frame or those genes. So if she ate less, that doesn’t mean she might be in that weight class, because just the very weight of her frame probably pushes her out of that weight class.

    Hendricks doesn’t even appear to have a frame anywhere near the size of Gisele’s.

  • Anna

    @ Hope
    I think it’s an interesting topic (would be fun to see more opinions in a thread).
    I believe statistically, wives of very wealthy men will be slimmer. However there may be several reasons for this:
    – some men in that position want a trophy, and a model or fashion name (which are trophy regulars) are likely to be slim, as that is the necessary standard
    – obesity is higher in the lower classes, and many wealthy men often meet women where they grew up / where they live, where women are likely to be slimmer

    Getting enough food is hardly a problem in the Western world though, but I assume even wealthy men find themselves hungry every once in a while. Whether they then would find a heavier woman attractive and change their preferences, I don’t know =)

  • Ramble

    Malia, that is all fine. But, my question still stands. You don’t have to answer it. No one does. But I find it interesting.

  • Malia

    Malia, that is all fine. But, my question still stands. You don’t have to answer it. No one does. But I find it interesting.

    I don’t even know what the question was.

  • Ramble

    I believe statistically, wives of very wealthy men will be slimmer. However there may be several reasons for this:
    – some men in that position want a trophy, and a model or fashion name (which are trophy regulars) are likely to be slim, as that is the necessary standard

    Anna, I got curious about that once. Wealthy men having trophy wives.

    A few years back Forbes listed the 500 wealthiest people in America (most of whom are men).

    They show a picture of at least the top 100 on their site and almost everyone had a photo of the wife as well.

    Almost all of the men were married to women with top educations and relatively powerful jobs (before retiring, say, after marrying a billionaire).

    Larry Ellison of Oracle was one of the very few who consistently went after “trophies”. It was really interesting. And even he was infamous for going after Stanford grads.

  • Isabel

    Ramble,

    2000 kcals per day? For a girl? I thought the number was closer to 1200- 1500? Granted, it has been a long time since I was reading about nutrition.

    It’s 2000 for the typical woman and 2500 for the typical man. 1200 is technically in the starvation/child portion region but ultimately, it’s just a general guideline (albeit a very good one). I struggle to top 1500-1700 a day but I have petite, absolutely teensy friends who could do that effortlessly in a sitting. It depends, really.

    As an aside: I’ve noticed that the comment section has gotten even more deranged and OT (in a funny way) since we got a forum. Lasagna, purses, pregnancy tips, Gisele, Jews, Nietzche, RDAs, anal … lol.

    Doug,

    The second is while just about all well paying jobs with decent status for women require a college degree, this is way less true for guys. Guys can become carpenters and then construction contractors plumbers and then own a plumbing business employing several others machinists, and so on.

    Oh, okay. ^_^

    So, there’s a silver lining then? However fine? I mean, I’m reading this and I can see the next two generations are royally screwed but I’m not feeling discouraged. Just informed.

  • Ramble

    Malia, can you name another “sexy” girl that does not have one photograph of her bare midsection online.

    I understand that you are not going to google Maxims top 100 but, I can not think of one girl, other than Hendricks, where that is the case.

    To me, that says something about what she likely thinks of her body (other than her big tits)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Malia, can you name another “sexy” girl that does not have one photograph of her bare midsection online.

      I understand that you are not going to google Maxims top 100 but, I can not think of one girl, other than Hendricks, where that is the case.

      I find this focus on Hendricks’ midriff odd. If anything, way too many women pimp themselves out in bikinis. She already takes a ton of abuse for her weight. I’m sure she knows that posing in a bathing suit would set her up for terrible criticism. The point is, she is happy with her weight. Otherwise, she would lose it. That body has made her rich, and I’m sure she has caused many sets of bedsheets be changed midweek.

  • Sassy6519

    I personally find Christina Hendricks stunning. To say she isn’t a sex symbol is ludicrous. She may not be a size two, but that doesn’t take away from her beauty in the least. There are plenty of models who are, in fact, her size or larger, and they do show their midriffs. Perhaps she simply doesn’t have the desire to do that. It’s her prerogative. Since when did showing one’s midriff become an indicator of sex symbol status? Typically, that title is appointed to someone if a huge chunk of both the male and female population rave about their looks. She meets those qualifications despite not showing her midriff.

  • Anna

    @ Malia
    I feel like you are giving me opinions I don’t have due to one sentence only

    – I told you that my Gisele mentioning was simply to illustrate how much less 1300 kcal a day is than what one should eat, and what most Americans eat.
    – I have already stated that Gisele is a supermodel and that her measurements and legs are very rare and not achievable for most people. However I think you are looking for offending statements.
    – Measurements and length of legs are outside of our control. Proportions to a large extent, we have a given body shape, but can build up the butt with muscle training and if a waist is covered under too much fat, it will practically disappear.
    – Please keep Christina and Gisele out of this last statement: although measurements and the size of our bones are outside our control, the ‘weight class’ – how heavy we are – are within our control. The amount of people which simply cannot lose weight have a disease and are very few inbetween. Unless you have a condition, you are perfectly capable of losing weight. Bad genes can make it more difficult, but not impossible.

  • Sassy6519

    Also, she did pose in a bikini back in 1999 for playboy. Here is the link if you are interested.

    http://www.christinahendricksgallery.com/uncategorized/christina-hendricks-in-a-bikini-for-playboy-rare-photos-from-1999/

  • Malia

    Malia, can you name another “sexy” girl that does not have one photograph of her bare midsection online.

    Yes.

    Christina is not the only actress who is “curvier” and considered sexy, but she is the most prominent Caucasian one. So there are other actresses that are in that same category that do not have those kinds of photos going around.

    To me, that says something about what she likely thinks of her body (other than her big tits)

    You don’t know what she thinks of her body, though. using a celebrity is a bad example because they have a financial/career stake involved in what they wear and how they are photographed and their image. By your assumption, the thinner girls who are always photographed in bikinis love their bodies, but we know through interviews they often have body image issues also. Look at someone like Heidi Montag. She fits the bill of being hot and thin before she started with all the plastic surgeries.

  • http://oldtimemoviereview.blogspot.com jamie

    @Ramble
    “Can you name any girl as well known as her (or anywhere near as well know as she is) as being a sex symbol where you can not find a single image showing her midriff taken in the last 10 years?”

    I don’t know. I don’t really pay attention to celebrity stuff. I just like Mad Men.
    My interest in Christina Hendricks is mostly because the costume department for that show did a lot of their shopping at my favorite vintage dress boutique in LA. The owner used to brag about it all the time. She made a lot of money during the first 2 seasons. ANYWAY, it looks like Hendricks and I wear about the same size, and for a while I couldn’t get anything in that store to zip past my ribcage and I figured SHE was the culprit. I did some research online only to find that she will not reveal her weight, measurements or dress size.

    As for the midriff pics, my guess? She’s too classy to dress like a 90’s teenager? Most likely she knows the media will tear her to shreds if she did post a midriff pic. She’s been in the industry long enough to know how it works.

    Sorry for the thread derailment. But if Anacoana and Hope can share conception stories, I should be allowed to talk about dresses.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I understand you don’t like political correctness, but honestly, you sound like you know the score and are just fishing for answers at this point. Yeah, she probably doesn’t have a perfectly flat belly and doesn’t want to show it, and the media promotes her as super sexy because she has a sellable image. Advertisers know lots of women are on the larger side and this image will sell. And she does have a pretty face from what few pictures I saw. Also, just about all women are insecure about their bodies, so yes, she probably is, too.

    Anyway, I find the whole entertainment / celebrity industry to be distasteful, trying to pull the wool over women’s eyes, selling blatant lies and advertising these glamorous lifestyles to the entire world. They’re like the modern equivalent of a nobility class, and many people love them and follow them on Twitter and Facebook and pretend they’re friends with these people. I understand it, but I’m not going to say that it’s a good thing.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    About those lopside gender ratios…. there’s some talk of that here:
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/12/pro-male_affirmative_action.html

  • Malia

    However I think you are looking for offending statements.

    Nope, not looking for offending statements.

    the ‘weight class’ – how heavy we are – are within our control.

    Yeah and this is the part. The amount of body fat/muscle, to a large degree is controllable (some is genetic) but my point with you is that some people are just “heavier” and even eating less will not change that. Some people do not have the build nor the genes to be lightweight. That doesn’t mean they need to have high bodyfat, but even with lower bodyfat, they are still “technically heavy.”

    Example” Serena Williams.

    She can starve herself and would not be able to maintain the thinness, of Venus Williams or most of the other female tennis stars.

    THIS is my point. I get what your ideal body image looks like, but that doesn’t make it a broad ideal.

  • Butterfly Flower

    I’m engaged [...why I don't really post on the blogosphere anymore. It turns out, I didn't need advice - I get by just fine relying on my own instincts].

    I’ve noticed women [outside of my family/social group] are less likely to congratulate me. I mean, [*] American men have no problem with a 20 year old getting married; however [*] American women make snarky comments and weird projections. ["You don't love him, you're only marrying him because he's attractive/you're knocked up/ you want a big wedding/to anger your parents"] I just ignore the comments; although I do find the adverse reactions intriguing. It proves that men aren’t against marriage – it’s women.

    *I’m part Japanese. Compared to Americans, I’ve noticed the Japanese have a completely different attitude towards marriage. Early 20’s marriage and age gaps [my fiance is 8 years older] aren’t scandalous.

    I could see marriages between college educated grade school teachers, nurses, or lower level government workers marrying say contractors or plumbers with their own business who employ another couple of plumbers, and so on being viable. There simply aren’t may good paying or decent status jobs for women outside of the arts and acting that that don’t require a BA that I can think of, but there are for men.

    I think people here need to stop assuming non-college educated men are poor. My father is a successful business owner; he does just as well [if not, more well] as any Doctor, Lawyer, CPA/Investment Banker, or Corporate Executive. The wealthiest men at my local country club are self-made business owners [You don't see too many Doctors, Lawyers or Corporate Execs out on the golf course - they're too busy working. After tax season, you do run into Bankers.] Actually, isn’t the majority of wealthy Americans self-made, self-employed business owners?

  • Ted D

    Lol I derailed us again!

    I never said she was a great role model, I said I thought she was smoking hot!

    Ramble – I don’t like to see bones other than joints for the most part. No ribs, no color bone, no hips bones showing. Yes, I like a little extra. I don’tpick on guys that like thin girls, it’s just not my thing. And truthfully, if she has a little jiggle in her belly and ass when the clothes come off, it wouldn’t bother me in the least. I do remember her from the Firefly series years ago. I didn’t know it was the same women because she was too skinny for my tastes back then.

    “36 24 36? Only if she’s 5’3″ My ex was 36 26 36 when we got married. She was 5’4″ ;) giggidy

  • LeapofaBeta

    A couple interesting articles I pulled up during an extremely intense debate I had over facebook with a female friend of mine who views college and the world to still be misogynistic (despite that these were articles she herself brought into our debate)

    http://www.nber.org/digest/jan07/w12139.html
    This one I found more interesting for its ideas of why women were going to college, but the ideas of why men weren’t going seemed pretty bunk too me. Probably one of the most interesting things in it was the last sentence “The female share of college students has expanded in all 17 member-nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in recent decades, so much so that women now outnumber men in college in almost all rich nations” because it hints that this could become a problem worldwide as so many other countries take on trends here in the US.

    http://www.singlesexschools.org/evidence.html
    The second was an incredible study on education of the two sexes in regards to co-ed and single ed classrooms. It took schools that went from co-ed classes and took very well planned and thorough measures to go to single ed classrooms. Not only was it beneficial for both the sexes, but I thought it was really telling of how our current system panders to a girls learning style over boys by a reversal of proficiency (though both still did significantly better) while having kids that were previously labeled ‘learning disabled’ or ADHD pass with flying colors. I’ll quote the stats below but would recommend reading the whole thing.

    boys in coed classes: 37% scored proficient
    girls in coed classes: 59% scored proficient

    girls in single-sex classes: 75% scored proficient
    boys in single-sex classes: 86% scored proficient

    It definitely shows that there’s a likelihood that fixing our K-12 educational system could fix a host of problems – the relevant one for this forum being encouraging men to continue an education into college.

    Oh, and it also found increased studies by the girls in STEM subjects and by the guys in liberal arts. Instead of silly gender roles of ‘girls don’t do math or science’ or ‘if you do theatre you must be gay’ both were able to successfully pursue their desired subjects.

  • Ted D

    Doh collar bone. Lol

  • Anna

    @ Butterfly Flower
    Those women are jealous! I believe the average age for marriage is much lower in Japan, but it’s in the early twenties’ range (meaning sensible in terms of fertility).
    I am sick of older women (if I can call 30+ that) taking out their insecurities on younger girls. Perhaps I am saying this because I have very bad experiences from friendships with women that age. It usually starts out great, they say I am mature for my age, we have many mutual interests etc. But at a certain point they get lecturing. Such as my 42 year old (single) female friend: “I am telling you, do NOT get married in your twenties. All the friends I have who did, are now divorced”.
    She is jealous of all the attention she doesn’t get, and every man who is after men and not her are “just after my youth”. Because you see, according to 30-something women, that is all I have to offer.
    The Grim Beeper was actually one of my favourite articles on here. I’m glad someone dealt with the delusion out there.

  • Anacaona

    @Butterfly Flower
    CONGRATULATIONS!
    I wish you happiness and love to both of you, forever. :)

  • Anna

    * after ME, not her. Can I not edit? :(

  • lovelost

    @HUS
    I guess economic situation of our times also contributing to the marriage decline, even though it says doesn’t. I came across this article
    “50 Economic Numbers About The US That Are “Almost Too Crazy To Believe”
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/50-economic-numbers-about-us-are-almost-too-crazy-believe

    these two statistics caught my attention

    #23 As I have written about previously, 19 percent of all American men between the ages of 25 and 34 are now living with their parents.

    You will require a lot of game and alpha badass to convince a woman to date you if you’re living with your parents.

    #36 If you can believe it, 37 percent of all U.S. households that are led by someone under the age of 35 have a net worth of zero or less than zero.

    No amount of education and beta STEM will cover these bases, until and unless you graduated with a zero debt or even better profit from your stipends.

  • LeapofaBeta

    @Susan
    Hmmm, comment of mine went into moderation. Is that triggered by having the two links in it, the length, or something else? Just curious cause now I have to impatiently wait for it to come out of moderation and I’ll avoid whatever gets it flagged for that in the future.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    BF,

    “I’m engaged [...why I don't really post on the blogosphere anymore. It turns out, I didn't need advice - I get by just fine relying on my own instincts].”

    SWELL!

    Love,
    Badger

  • Doug1

    As for famous curvy white women, Kim Kardashian is pretty damn curvy, though she does have a tiny waste with no compression garment assist needed.

  • Loris

    I can heartily sympathize with the ladies trying to get pregnant. I married as a virgin at 21. I’m now 27, have been trying for a kid for three years, and nothing. My gynecologist says I’m perfectly healthy, so there’s a big question mark over my husband’s head now.

    Re: Hendricks.
    I absolutely love the way she looks even though I have no clue what kind of actress she is, having never watched anything she’s been in. I’m built very similarly, and am around her height, as far as I can tell. I’m 5’9 and some change. I have broad shoulders, a big ribcage, and wide hips, even though I’m not big boned. I eat between 13-1500 calories a day and am moderately active. (Briskly walk a couple miles most days after work, Zumba class once a week.) The BMI chart tells me that somebody my height should weigh 35 pounds less than I do. This is hilarious to me. So it’s entirely possible that somebody can eat fairly little of good, healthy food, exercise daily, and still be technically overweight–and still look pretty darn good. I am super thrilled that Mad Men-inspired fashion is in right now. There is nothing more flattering to curvy women and I’m stocking up before the next trend hits. And yes, having huge breasts does make you look fat in pictures. No two ways about it.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Wow, that explains why I’ve never seen CH and Gwen Stefani in the same room.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    Women are always complaining that men want stick-thin women, and offering magazine covers as evidence – but those magazines are bought by women, not men, and reveled preference is that Christina Hendricks and Pamela Anderson (and Danica Patrick) are quite pleasing to men.

    So we really have to distinguish between women that women admire and women that men admire.

  • Ramble

    Personally, I think it’s no contest. She went from a 7 to a 9.

    She went from a 4 to a 14. I am curious, if you were forced to speak for your daughter and her only 2 choices were between having the one Hendricks body or the other, which one would she choose?

  • Ramble

    If anything, way too many women pimp themselves out in bikinis.

    I am not saying that the average young woman is not an attention whore. But, almost every single attractive girl under 40 has either been in FHM, or Maxim, or Playboy, or GQ or at the very least had her photograph taken of her at the beach or on vacation. Which is why all you need to to is type in the name of some girl in Google Images followed by the word “bikini” or “lingerie” and you will instantly find a picture of her in something revealing. The only one of Hendricks that exists of from many, many years ago.

    For me, the fact that you can not find one of her is really interesting. Because, she does not seem that modest, at least when it comes to her cleavage.

    She already takes a ton of abuse for her weight.

    I can’t say that I am an expert on modern pop culture, but she seems to be the Belle of the “Real Woman” Ball. And, like you said, it is making her rich.

  • Doug1

    Susan —

    I mean SHOULD favor men for those reasons, in both cases.

  • Doug1

    *meant

    Jeesssh

  • Ramble

    Ramble, I understand you don’t like political correctness, but honestly, you sound like you know the score and are just fishing for answers at this point.

    Hope, I really wanted to know the answer. Malia had said that there are, but she did not mention any.

    A while back I got curious about what girls had not done a “sexy” shoot for a magazine. For instance, I seemed to recall that Phoebe from Friends once did a shoot where she was completely covered, showing almost no skin, and I am not sure if she ever did do a revealing shoot. She was the only one I could think of. I mean, tennis players who had made millions from their tennis and endorsements, were doing revealing shoots.

    And, it is not like “real” women do not do these spreads. For a while, JLo was the poster child for what a “real” woman would look like. No stick figure body for her. But she sure has hell showed off her midriff and everyone loved it.

    So, my guess is, Christina thinks that she is overweight. Normally, I would not care. Until the taste-makers attempt to make her the “real” woman of our generation. It is annoying.

    Hope, I don’t know if you remember, but when the Kate Bolick piece came out and Susan, for some reason, felt the need to remark that Kate is gorgeous, I immediately responded. I was trying to warn her.

    Soon, every guy that commented on the article mentioned that she was not attractive. Most seemed to be specifically responding to Susan’s remark. There seems to be a great desire, nowadays, to define what is “sexy”. And, often enough, men will respond when it is way off the mark. But, I am getting off track.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      re Kate Bolick:

      Soon, every guy that commented on the article mentioned that she was not attractive.

      That is not true. Several said they would gladly hit it, and often.

      Susan, for some reason, felt the need to remark that Kate is gorgeous…There seems to be a great desire, nowadays, to define what is “sexy”. And, often enough, men will respond when it is way off the mark.

      Gorgeous /= sexy. I find it rather ridiculous that you’re suggesting that women have no right to an opinion on what’s attractive in another woman. It’s not like we were raised by wolves, lol. We all know what women are held up as beautiful and sexy to men. Some women parade their sexuality, some don’t. But I’m just as qualified to share my impression of female attractiveness as any man.

      For the record, two commenters here who did not defend Kate Bolick’s looks in the thread emailed me about her. One wanted me to arrange an introduction, the other asked me to convey his marriage proposal!

  • Emily

    I’m actually pretty jealous of girls who have the “hourglass” shape. You ladies can gain a bit of weight and still keep a good hip/waist ratio. I’m tall and leggy, but any weight I gain goes straight to my tummy, so I always have to work to keep that under control. I’m never going to be “curvy”.

  • Ramble

    I wrote a post on Christina Hendricks after the New York Times actually photoshopped her to make her look fatter.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/25/whatguyswant/this-is-why-women-have-eating-disorders/

    Check out the comments – only 52 lol. The guys essentially say she’s smoking hot.

    Susan, come on, some context.

    Those 52 comments.

    Well, the previous post had 8 comments. Eight! So, the Christinia Hendricks post produced 6x the number of comments.

    At that time the number of comments you had for previous posts were 8, 55, 126, 16, and 9. Saying you only had 52 is not saying much.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, come on, some context.

      Those 52 comments.

      Well, the previous post had 8 comments. Eight! So, the Christinia Hendricks post produced 6x the number of comments.

      At that time the number of comments you had for previous posts were 8, 55, 126, 16, and 9. Saying you only had 52 is not saying much.

      I think you misunderstood me. I was simply joking about the good old days. I was very, very happy when comment threads got that high. And it was a lot less work :)

  • Ramble

    Personally, I think she’s sex on wheels. So does every male character on Mad Men, by the way.

    Personally, I think she’s sex on wheels. So does every male character female writer on Mad Men, by the way.

    There, I fixed that for you.

  • Ramble

    Ted D, I knew exactly what youn were saying. No need to clarify. But, strawman came out regardless.

    I said “slender”. I said, “Not Fat”. You responded with “I don’t want bones sticking out.”

    Trust me, that is a very common response.

    It is a little like if some girl said she prefers taller men and some other girls responds, “Oh, those 7 foot 3 basketball players are weird looking.”

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I am not saying that the average young woman is not an attention whore. But, almost every single attractive girl under 40 has either been in FHM, or Maxim, or Playboy, or GQ or at the very least had her photograph taken of her at the beach or on vacation. Which is why all you need to to is type in the name of some girl in Google Images followed by the word “bikini” or “lingerie” and you will instantly find a picture of her in something revealing.

    Wha? Now I’m gonna go google attractive girls I know and see if their pictures come up. Will report back.

    Unless you meant attractive celebrities. Then I buy it.

  • Ramble

    Olive, someone who is fairly well known. She does not need to be as famous as Reese Witherspoon. But, say, someone that most, or at least some, of your friends would have some sort of familiarity with.

  • http://www.facebook.com/#!/eva.vandergeld Pip

    Doug1 sayeth: “Women past their mid 20′s should feel pressured and guilty for not finding a marriage partner.”

    Really? And if they are not interested in marriage and are childfree?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    P.S. Well that’s creepy, I just googled myself and 3 pictures of me came up, one from my linked in profile and two from articles my college did about me. Didn’t know google was quite that stalkerish. Nothing revealing though, and I typed in a few others’ names too (and again, pictures of them came up, but nothing revealing).

  • Ramble

    Olive, again, mildly famous people is what I am talking about.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Can you reference a mildly famous person? I still don’t get it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Also, you didn’t really add the mildly famous qualifier in your original post, what you said was “almost every single attractive girl under 40.” I find that to be a ridiculous claim.

  • Butterfly Flower

    Those women are jealous! I believe the average age for marriage is much lower in Japan, but it’s in the early twenties’ range (meaning sensible in terms of fertility).
    I am sick of older women (if I can call 30+ that) taking out their insecurities on younger girls. Perhaps I am saying this because I have very bad experiences from friendships with women that age. It usually starts out great, they say I am mature for my age, we have many mutual interests etc. But at a certain point they get lecturing. Such as my 42 year old (single) female friend: “I am telling you, do NOT get married in your twenties. All the friends I have who did, are now divorced”.

    She is jealous of all the attention she doesn’t get, and every man who is after men and not her are “just after my youth”. Because you see, according to 30-something women, that is all I have to offer.

    The weird thing is, it’s not just older single women. Even older married housewives vilify my engagement. I realize they’re projecting their own insecurities onto me – it’s just, I’m sick of being treated like a pariah. I’m marrying the man I love – I’m not selling all my possessions and joining a cult that worship space aliens. But I guess shouldn’t be complaining. My family and friends are supportive; that’s really all that matters.

    Those women are jealous! I believe the average age for marriage is much lower in Japan, but it’s in the early twenties’ range (meaning sensible in terms of fertility).

    In Japan, there’s a term for single women over the age of 25 – Christmas Cake. Nobody wants Christmas themed pastries after the 25th ;)

    @Anna, Anacaona, Badger: thank you for the good wishes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Butterfly Flower

      I congratulate you on your happy announcement, and also on doing what is right for you, regardless of what the culture rewards. The culture would have you be Carrie Bradshaw at 40.

  • lovelost

    @HUS

    Kobe’s wife files for divorce

    read this guys,

    Kobe Bryant has earned roughly $200 million — not including endorsements — during his 15-year career with the Lakers, but may have to give up half of his assets as part of a divorce settlement, as the couple are not believed to have signed a prenuptial agreement, TMZ reported.

    sign the DAMN pre-nup before you marry, no matter how alpha or beta you’re. this is sweet, as i said the word marriage will be removed from english dictionary by 2030.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lovelost

      Why shouldn’t Kobe have to give his wife half? Do you know the circumstances of their breakup?

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Susan #370

    “Bedsheets changed midweek”-in my prime, they’d need to be changed mid-morning and then again mid-afternoon, daily, before they solidified and needed to be broken up with a cold-drill (mining tool-used on rock). But are you talking ’bout the gal in #368? I find her look overstated, theatrical in near drag-queen way (ok not so much the midriff shot, but her boobs hang low and I’m thrown off by the extra long noisemaker she holds in her left hand, and her tummy makes me think of a fertility symbol and thoughts of fertility throw off my arousal buzz ‘cuz I start thinking of midnight feedings, moist bundles squirming under blankets on my shoulder, sing-songy baby talk, and a lot of other stuff that blunts the rapier-like focus and intensity of my throbbing flaming gigantic engorged man-spear.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      That’s a before and after pic – what do you think of her now?

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    right hand-we need edit feature

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      right hand-we need edit feature

      I debugged the comment toolbar and preview functions yesterday. You’ve got them back. No more whining!

  • Doug1

    Pip–

    Really? And if they are not interested in marriage and are childfree?

    Pressured is somewhat exagg. I was using the words Susan said feminist groups used in being outraged at a fertility doctor’s organization’s putting up ads with a uterous shaped like an hourglass saying time is running out. Feminist almost always exagg if not downright lie.

    I was more saying that that ad campaign was entirely apropriate.

    But yeah educated women should be lobbied to have children, to avoid dysgenic effects among other things.

  • Ramble

    Can you reference a mildly famous person? I still don’t get it.

    Someone who is likely to be referenced in People or OK magazine. Not necessarily the girl on the cover, but someone who is, as Kathy Griffin might put it, at least a C list celebrity.

  • Malia

    Malia had said that there are, but she did not mention any.

    You keep changing the criteria each time you post, first it was like bare midriff, then it was lingerie and bikini… Nonetheless, the first person that came to my mind is Sarah Ramierez, which is why I made the statement that Christina Hendricks is the most popular Caucasian actress. If I started naming names, it would devolve into a debate over their “sexiness” when for most of the other women, within their culture, they are considered sexy even if in the broader scope of things, they may not be considered as sexy or sexy.

  • Ramble

    Also, you didn’t really add the mildly famous qualifier in your original post, what you said was “almost every single attractive girl under 40.” I find that to be a ridiculous claim.

    Olive, I did not realize how specific I needed to be. Mea culpa.

    I meant girls who were likely to have multiple photographs online. The kinds of girls famous enough (again, say C or D list and above) that the paparazzi would be interested in photographing them on the beach.

  • Doug1

    lovelost–

    Kobe Bryant has earned roughly $200 million — not including endorsements — during his 15-year career with the Lakers, but may have to give up half of his assets as part of a divorce settlement, as the couple are not believed to have signed a prenuptial agreement, TMZ reported.

    sign the DAMN pre-nup before you marry, no matter how alpha or beta you’re. this is sweet, as i said the word marriage will be removed from english dictionary by 2030.

    Yeah the idea that a wife deserves massive millions in divorce settlement simply for being the wife of a very richly earning man is obscene to me. That was never the case in this country or any other until it was in California in 1969, and then in a concerted feminist campaign in the 70’s, in all states around the country more or less.

    I don’t care how much he cheated, she shouldn’t be able to get that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t care how much he cheated, she shouldn’t be able to get that.

      Why not? It’s like the concept of a flat tax rate. Flat alimony rate. It’s not like he’ll want for money now.

  • Doug1

    Ramble–

    I get who you mean. Like models who aren’t celebrity super models, but have appeared in Maxim etc.

    Or Tom Brady’s gf before Giselle, Monahan wasn’t it, who’s a Hollywood C list actress, who oopsed a child out of him on one last fling before he got exclusive with Giselle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @doug1

      Monahan wasn’t it, who’s a Hollywood C list actress, who oopsed a child out of him on one last fling

      Fling? Didn’t they date for 2 or 3 years?

  • Ramble

    You keep changing the criteria each time you post, first it was like bare midriff, then it was lingerie and bikini…

    Malia, I was simply trying to give an example or two as to how you might find a bare midriff photo online. For instance, “Sarah Michelle Gellar Bikini” or “Katherine Heigl lingerie”. I didn’t mean that it had to be a bikini photo.
    ===============
    “Sarah Ramierez”

    I never heard of her, who is she?

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ramble,
    Alright cool. Sorry I couldn’t read your mind.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I get who you mean. Like models who aren’t celebrity super models, but have appeared in Maxim etc.

    Or Tom Brady’s gf before Giselle, Monahan wasn’t it, who’s a Hollywood C list actress, who oopsed a child out of him on one last fling before he got exclusive with Giselle.

    LOL I have no idea who any of those people are. Nor have I heard of the woman from Mad Men or whatever. I’m mostly a pop culture fail. :-P In any case, google search is now over.

  • Doug1

    Lovelost–

    It’s worse than that. In California they now have lifelong alimony for marriages of more than 10 years. But when there’s a real fortune trnasferred I think they tend not to assess it. Probably would if she gets a “mere” 10 million though as “her half”.

    It’s really obscenely unfair.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – yeah I finally get what your saying. I guess my reaction is on par with my feminist programming. :p

    And I’m pretty sure I would agree with many of your choices in terms of sexy women. You probably just like the thinner side of the bell curve. I’m a big guy. At my best (in my early 20’s) I was 212lbs with a 37 waiste. I was exercising and eating right, but couldn’t get any smaller. I would be concerned for any women with me that didn’t have some mass to her. (Not really. But I’d rather have a woman next to me that doesn’t look like a child compared to me. Lol)

  • Ramble

    Doug1, right. And a very quick search on Google Images immediately revealed an image of her revealing her belly.

    The Sara Ramirez girl, who definitely looks heavier than the average hollywood actress, did not have any images showing her bare midriff.

    Both are, basically, perfect examples.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      LOL Ramble has a serious midriff fetish.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ted,

    I would be concerned for any women with me that didn’t have some mass to her. (Not really. But I’d rather have a woman next to me that doesn’t look like a child compared to me. Lol)

    Ha! You should see me with my BF. He’s 6’3″, probably about 270 or 280. He’s a large guy. I STILL get handed children’s menus in restaurants occasionally. People probably think I’m his kid (although his babyface gives him away).

  • lovelost

    @Doug1

    oh i got it “in all states around the country more or less.”

  • Lokland

    @ HUS

    Just throwing my two cents into this debate.

    Christina Hendricks looks like she has watermelons stuffed in her shirt. Eww.
    (I date A and B cups, bias does exist.)

    As for Giselle Bundchen. OMG MORE PLZ OM NOM NOM.

    @Doug and Lovelost

    So Kobes wife is getting $100 million. 15 years married. Thats 6 and 2/3 of a million dollars a year + room and board.
    How anyone can call that realistic would require complete insanity or utter hatred of men in general. I know he cheated and was probably a shitty husband but I don’t think its worth that much.
    For example, guy went to jail on murder charge for 19 years recieved 19 million in compensation after he was proven innocent. Apparently being married to Kobe is 7x harder than being falsely accused of murder and spending a significant portion of your life in jail.

  • Doug1

    Emily–

    I’m never going to be “curvy”.

    Unless you buy you know what’s.

    I don’t understand the apparent strong opposition to that around here, at least among the girls. Jesus Mahoney is pretty much opposed to anything I favor, so he doesn’t count.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      For god’s sake stop promoting breast implants. They always look like grapefruit halves, they have a completely unnatural shape and most men hate them. Many women have problems with them. I don’t know why you think it’s no big deal to have your chest sliced open. They’re expensive, they’re invasive, and they’re fake looking.

      bi

  • Ramble

    Ted, it is such a common response.

    Like I said, even when you use words like slender, or “not fat”, invariably the “I like some meat on my bones” guy will refer to them as if they are about to die from bulimia.

  • Ramble

    Lokland, I am curious, would you not prefer a girl like Giselle have at least a little bit more in hips department?

  • http://www.facebook.com/#!/eva.vandergeld Pip

    “Feminists almost always exaggerate if not downright lie.”

    Ah. I see.

    It would seem that’s a problem on both sides.

    “But yeah, educated women should be lobbied to have children, to avoid dysgenic effects among other things.”

    What if they don’t want children and don’t want to be pressured (or “lobbied”) to have them? And, if the “lobbying” involves paying tax dollars, what if the taxpayers don’t want to pay for it?

  • Lokland

    @ Ramble

    My fiance is 5 foot nothing and weighs 99 pounds. Her ass looks like it was stolen from Aphrodite. Her cruves are tiny but perfect. So no. Not in a million years.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Doug,

    I don’t understand the apparent strong opposition to that around here, at least among the girls. Jesus Mahoney is pretty much opposed to anything I favor, so he doesn’t count.

    I mean, would you want to go through penis engorgement surgery?

    Listen, I’ve had 6 surgeries. In general, they are painful. Most implants must be replaced every 10 years (at least the silicon ones), so that means surgery every 10 years… fun fun fun! Also that costs money, probably money your insurance company won’t dish out (unless you’re a breast cancer patient).

    So why go through all that if guys like my little A cup boobs anyway? They fit my body. Cs probably would not. So I’m cool not getting implants thanks.

  • Malia

    I wonder if you guys get equally as irritated when the man gets the financial settlement off the wife’s earnings

  • lovelost

    @Doug1
    Well if Kobe’s awfulness and cheater ways was so hard to live with she could have divorced him long ago. Why didn’t she.

    Oh Doug1 do you know she was trying to fix him? she realised exactly after 10 years of marriage that he wasn’t fixable but worth at $200 million. so the she needs to pull the plug out. :)

  • lovelost

    @Malia

    Could you please share some of those stories?

  • Lokland

    @ Malia

    General statistic men do but not nearly as often. Also in general they are comensated less.
    However if Kobe and his wife were reversed I’d be all over Kobe for being a gold digger.

    Problem is thats simply not the way our society is, women get most of the settlements and when men get them they are tyically lower.

    My opinion is everyone should set up a pre-nup beforehand so its fair to both partners and paternity tests should be a given.

  • Doug1

    Ramble–

    Hendricks is pretty unusual as to where her more calories induced weight gain almost exclusively went — tits and ass to be colloquial about it. Usually it goes to belly as well. It may have somewhat with her, but not much. So no I wouldn’t encourage a daughter to gain weight unless she’s anorexic. I would encourage her to be athletic to a fair degree, but not obsessively so. Some. Well it’s also a help in getting into unis to these days if she’s athletic to a lot of degree, due to Title IX which I don’t agree with, but it is what is. So that pulls in another direction.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Well it’s also a help in getting into unis to these days if she’s athletic to a lot of degree, due to Title IX which I don’t agree with, but it is what is. So that pulls in another direction.

    False. I don’t know any girls who had trouble getting into college because they weren’t athletic. I don’t have an athletic bone in my body. Honestly I think you’re so hypersensitive to feminism that you use it to explain everything. Like the stupid SAT thing. The more I thought about that, the less I could see what it has to do with feminism.

  • Doug1

    Malia–

    I wonder if you guys get equally as irritated when the man gets the financial settlement off the wife’s earnings

    I’m not in favor of that either, but it’s rare as hen’s teeth. In 2007 96% of alimony went from men to women. In that same year only 17% of wives made more money than their husbands, and it was usually only a little more for them. When it’s a whole lot more it’s almost always the man way more than his wife.

    Divorce theft is real. No with poor and working class men so much, you can’t get blood out of a stone. But among men that feminists wanted to squeeze such as upper middle class earning and above, hell’s yeah there’s massive divorce theft in America by divorcing women. Even if they’re divorcing having cheated and refusing to stop, thus having their sexual attraction, love and bondedness feelings for their husband dissolve, and thus wanting to go out and search for new falling in love feelings with her next serial monogamy, even though her lover wouldn’t marry her because he wouldn’t leave his wife.

    Such is the true state of American divorce and divorce theft today.

  • Doug1

    Olive–

    False. I don’t know any girls who had trouble getting into college because they weren’t athletic. I don’t have an athletic bone in my body. Honestly I think you’re so hypersensitive to feminism that you use it to explain everything.

    No it’s not false. It’s not the only way for girls to get into elite unis for sure, but it’s a big boost at many of them. It was a big boost for one of my nieces I know for a fact. She was a very good soccer player. She was also good in academics but not absolutely stellar.

  • http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com flyfreshandyoung

    Way late to the party, it appears. Susan’s advice is pretty damn good for girls that are serious about marriage. Serious being the keyword. There is no half-assing your search, and like Badger said, you don’t get too many free swings.

    If you don’t start early and in earnest, you’ll find yourself slowly but surely drifting into “LTR but no marriage” land as the marriageable dudes gradually get taken up and a larger and larger amount of dudes you’d consider dating consists of dudes who would rather not settle down. Those stats SW showed on declining marriages, the education gap, etc… means that it’s an Alpha’s playground out there, and it’s only going to get more skewed.

    I think it was over at Dalrock’s recently where someone busted out some stats saying that the longest lasting marriages nowdadys are ones that start when they are no older than 25, with a dropoff after that. I’d say that sounds about right, and it’s a good metric to use. Older than that, maybe you’ve gotten more jaded or “experienced”, or your dude is a reluctant ex-player, has issues, or whatever.

    @Doug1

    “Unless you buy you know what’s.”

    More than a few girls I knew in college got very discreet upgrades, nothing to gaudy. The difference was very boner enhancing. B to plump C, and trust me, they still looked natural.

  • Doug1

    Pip–

    “Feminists almost always exaggerate if not downright lie.”

    Ah. I see.

    It would seem that’s a problem on both sides.

    No it’s not remotely the same. Leftists and especially feminist intellectuals, academics and journalists exagg, spin and lie all the time, politicians of both parties do as well maybe somewhat equally, but conservative and independent/centrist intellectuals, academic and media people do so far, far less than leftist and especially feminists. The left and esp. the feminist left so rarely gets called on that stuff by the media. The right get called on anything they can’t completely back up all the freakin time.
    There’s a very heavy thumb on the public discussion scale as between left and right in intellectual / social issues debate.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I’m not going to say Henricks (Christina, not me) is fat, but I don’t find her attractive at all. Looks old too. I’ve never found Gisele to be attractive either. Way too masculine (and old).

    In my opinion, an average college aged girl is much hotter than either of em.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Bottom line: American women have gotten a lot more masculine.

    That’s really interesting, I just had to make a journal for school (silly) and in one of my entries I wrote about Lady Gaga actually making herself more masculine. You should watch her videos, it’s fascinating. She starts out all sexy, then starts experimenting with role reversal (Alejandro) and by You and I she’s actually a man in some of the scenes. I sometimes wonder if it’s her way of making fun of American beauty standards. She’s a fascinating character.

  • Doug1

    Olive–

    LOL I have no idea who any of those people are.

    This is not deep into E news Olive. Tom Brady is generally considered to be one of the two best quarterbacks in the NFL now and for a decade or more. Giselle his wife is said to have been the most highly paid supermodel in the world at one point, mostly for Victoria’s Secret. She’s not my type though. Monahan or something like that I only know about because of the ginormous amount of child support=also stealth alimony it was speculated she’d get, and because of the really completely obvious ooopsing nature of her having a kid by Tom Brady. That is for men’s issues/political reasons, not gossip mag ones. Someone at Roissy’s I think link to an article about all this.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Doug,
    Watch E News? Yeah I have better things to do.
    I’ll read the New York Times though!

  • Doug1

    Olive–

    I don’t either was the point.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Oh. Yeah misread your comment. My bad.

  • Doug1

    Olive–

    I mean, would you want to go through penis engorgement surgery

    It’s not remotely comparable. It has a very high rate of bad complications, and also of not working worth squat.

  • Anacaona

    I can heartily sympathize with the ladies trying to get pregnant. I married as a virgin at 21. I’m now 27, have been trying for a kid for three years, and nothing. My gynecologist says I’m perfectly healthy, so there’s a big question mark over my husband’s head now.

    Go to my post about TTC in the forum section, there are some things a perfectly healthy woman can try. Hope that helps you!

    A while back I got curious about what girls had not done a “sexy” shoot for a magazine. For instance, I seemed to recall that Phoebe from Friends once did a shoot …
    If I remember Lisa’s Kudrow bio right she married a virgin so she probably is very conservative. She even married someone out of Hollywood that is usually a good sign of trying really to make it work, YMMV.

  • Anacaona

    @Olive
    Did you check my blog about The Herd?
    I think you will like it!
    http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/the-herd-how-to-avoid-it/

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anacaona,
    I saw the title!! Definitely planning to read it when I have a spare moment!

  • http://jabootu.net/?p=4714 Pip

    Doug1 quoteth: “There’s a very heavy thumb on the public discussion scale as between left and right in intellectual / social issues debate.”

    Being generally libertarian, I’ll buy the part about the liberal mainstream media. But who was responsible for the tax penalty on imposed childfree people? (Disguised as a tax credit for parents.) Who is responsible for the erosion of abortion rights across the country? (Very interesting story in the Weekly Standard recently about this.)

    And I ask again, in response to your statement: ““But yeah, educated women should be lobbied to have children, to avoid dysgenic effects among other things.”

    What if they don’t want children and don’t want to be pressured (or “lobbied”) to have them? And, if the “lobbying” involves the paying of tax dollars, what if the taxpayers don’t want to pay for it?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    The site is fascinating for anyone interested in how standards of beauty have changed over the years. Bottom line: American women have gotten a lot more masculine

    I think there have been enough studies and surveys done that conclude than men prefer more naturally curvy women for LTRs, marriage, children. That probably hasn’t changed much in thousands of years. The skeletal, no hips look is a uniquely 20th century development. An extreme beauty fad that probably originated in France, like Coco Chanel with sun tanning. It’s taken almost 100 years to convince people of the damage that can do. The one thing men prefer much more now than in the old days is a lack of female body hair, at least in the U.S. : )

    Regarding the marriage trends, not a big surprise. These seem consistent with other stuff I’ve seen. I read the whole report at Pew’s website. I couldn’t help but notice the racial and educational components. White and college-educated folks seem to be enjoying the benefits of marriage. I know that Asians tend to have the highest rates of marriage. It’s interesting, they’re a small percentage of the general population but a much bigger chunk of the college demographic.

    I don’t think you can blame post-modern feminism for the short-term marriage slump. The economy probably has had the most to do with it in the last few years. I tied the knot right before the recession hit hard in 2008. The tax benefit of filing jointly is huge for us, not as big as the mortgage interest deduction though.

    On the perceptions of marriage, I didn’t see it broken down by gender. I wonder what the difference is between men vs. women on those who “don’t want to marry” or “aren’t sure”? I’m guessing it might be pretty lopsided.

    There seems to be a satisfaction gap here, and I’ve seen it elsewhere in other studies. Most people who are married report being very happy (60% or more). They have optimistic views on marriage. Those who are single or divorced tend to have negative views on marriage. Either marriage is bad per se (which I don’t believe), or a significant slice of the population just isn’t very good at it…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      On the perceptions of marriage, I didn’t see it broken down by gender. I wonder what the difference is between men vs. women on those who “don’t want to marry” or “aren’t sure”? I’m guessing it might be pretty lopsided.

      Yes, I wished they’d included that too. I’m really surprised they didn’t, since as you say there’s bound to be a big difference between the sexes there.

  • Jhane Sez

    But, almost every single attractive girl under 40 has either been in FHM, or Maxim, or Playboy, or GQ or at the very least had her photograph taken of her at the beach or on vacation.

    So, my guess is, Christina thinks that she is overweight. Normally, I would not care. Until the taste-makers attempt to make her the “real” woman of our generation. It is annoying.

    @ramble…

    For the record Christina has been on the cover of both GQ and Esquire, and did editorial spreads for both of those covers…. along with a host of other mainstream high profile mags, and usually with a very sexy edge to them.

    If I was Christina or Sara I wouldn’t do bikini’s either… not because I would be ashamed of my body but I wouldn’t want to generate the Ashley Graham type of controversy… she was the model who wore a bra and panties in the Lane Bryant commercial that was pulled last year because it was deemed to graphic for family viewing.

    I think that part of Christina’s image is retro pastche and strictly from an editorial stand point a two piece of any kind would read vulgar rather than sexy…

    Ask any curvy girl she isn’t going to be a fan of tube tops and booty shorts because it looks like you are trying way too hard, it attracts the wrong kind of attention and you end up looking super slutty

    And trust me if you grew up with curves you learn at a very young age to be mindful of the way you dress because as soon as your curves appear you become a target for grown men who don’t care how old you are…. so things like midriff baring are off limits unless you enjoy looking like a porn star.

    The truth is it really doesn’t matter how she ‘feels’ about her body because you can always photoshop and air brush (which is a process ALL professional photos goes through) her body to perfection.

    Lastly… Season 5 of Mad Men kicks off in March 2012 and I can’t wait ~JS

  • Kurt

    If the statistics show that marriages are less stable when the people getting married are well into their 30s, then I would bet that the reason for this is because women end up marrying men whom they don’t really want just so that they can have kids (or some chump to leech off if the woman is a party girl). So from a male perspective, a woman in her mid-late 30s is statistically a poor choice for marriage.

  • Jhane Sez

    “Kobe Bryant has earned roughly $200 million — not including endorsements — during his 15-year career with the Lakers, but may have to give up half of his assets as part of a divorce settlement, as the couple are not believed to have signed a prenuptial agreement, TMZ reported.”

    People forget the historical context of how they met.

    Kobe was 21 and Vanessa was 16 and still in high school when they started dating… wikipedia says she was 17 but if you google it you will find that this was a hot topic, because they had been dating for several months before the video shoot in question… in fact it is rumored that she got the job because of her relationship with Kobe.

    Her parents found out about the relationship and basically told him that if he didn’t marry her they would file statutory rape charges, because he wasn’t going to pump and dump their daughter.

    He had a reputation to protect and so knowing her less than a year he married her… against his parents wishes… parents he didn’t speak to for a couple of years because they didn’t like her or her family.

    So let’s put this in perspective… if Kobe is 33 and they have been married 11 years then she is what 28 or 29 (depending on who you believe)… and she lacks loyalty because she is opting out of a marriage that started with a grown man playing in the NBA who married a girl barely out of high school and cheated on her the whole time.

    You guys know nothing about the “but mom I LOVE him” mentality of teenaged girls… if she was really a gold digger she could have jammed him up big time when he was mixed up in the rape shenanigans 7 years ago.

    It is rumored that HE and HIS people extended the olive branch for her to stay… once again to protect his image as a nice guy… which helped him make the 200 million.

    This isn’t the tale of some poor long suffering beta being taken to the cleaners for his life savings and the ancestral family home…

    So how is the Kobe situation relatable to the average guy? ~JS

  • The Deuce

    Despite progressive sex ed curricula in most areas of the country, adult women today are seriously misinformed about the state of their ovaries.

    “Despite” isn’t the right word here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The Deuce

      Despite progressive sex ed curricula in most areas of the country, adult women today are seriously misinformed about the state of their ovaries.

      “Despite” isn’t the right word here.

      Yeah, that was me being snarky.

  • Jhane Sez

    “I suppose you’re correct in that all of their wives won the lottery, but sadly, with the exception of Bono, the rest have had to pay out the equivalent of a lottery to make those women go away having made the mistake of marrying those women in the first place.”

    Paul McCartney’s situation was really sad because he had just lost Linda a few years before he got with Heather Mills… who was by anyones definition a piece of work.

    And in the end she was awarded 38.5 M in settlement which is a pittance considering Paul’s net worth… and no I am not saying that she is entitled to more because by all accounts she is a horrible human being

    And the child support settlement is reasonable considering his level of wealth, he covers the nanny, school fees and his daughter receives an allowance of 70K per year until she is 17… which may sound extravagant to regular people but is a modest sum in proportion to her fathers wealth.

    Sting cheated on his first wife with his current wife Trudie who lived down the road… I don’t know the exact arrangements with his first wife but she maintains the original family home and the 2 children he has with her are treated equally with the 4 he has with Trudie.

    All things being considered I would gather that none of their ex wives would consider their divorces as hitting the lottery considering it would have been far more lucrative to stay married and ignore whatever problems existed.

    I know most of you guys don’t have children but your perceptions of how much it cost to raise a child are way out of touch with reality

    I don’t understand the hostility towards the support of children, ex-wives perhaps but the kids come on… because based on the comments it is obvious that most commenting don’t have any first hand knowledge of how divorce or child support actually work

    I know a lot of chicks who thought that the current laws would lead to lucrative settlements and monthly checks only to be very surprised by how things were divided in reality ~JS

  • JimKhan

    I guess economic situation of our times also contributing to the marriage decline, even though it says doesn’t. I came across this article
    “50 Economic Numbers About The US That Are “Almost Too Crazy To Believe”

    Good post. Those stats resemble all too much of the industrialized West, including Japan. Those economic numbers combined with an overall demographic decline of marriage rates, birth rates, et al., are a recipe for civilizational decline and collapse. Real demographic death spiral stuff like we are seeing in Europe. I really don’t see how the West recovers. Hello Dark Ages 2.0.

    I suspect that things are going to play out in two phases, the first will resemble Mad Max 1.0, and then Mad Max 2.0. The US isn’t quite at Mad Max 1.0 yet but soon will be starting with California. The only thing I haven’t figured out is whether to join up with the guys with Toecutter or Humungus.

  • Jhane Sez

    “Perhaps that might be why some of the younger women might be wary of the men who are much older (more than 5 years) interested in them? Some older dude who thinks that because they are young, they are to be preyed upon as being young and naive? They or their parents worried that their vulnerability might lead them to be taken advantage of?”

    This would not happen at casa de Sez… and that is not at the instance of the women of the family but of the men.

    High school girls aren’t allowed to date boys out of high school or more than one grade ahead… the schools in my district do not allow the girls to have dates that are over 20 because of concerns about drinking and if the boy doesn’t go to the school, the school requires signed permission from parents and a photo id to attend.

    College… date somebody who isn’t vetted… the general thinking is that while you are technically an adult as long as you are being supported you still have to abide by house rules. Which includes dating boys preferably in college or working within 3 to 5 years of your age… and this is more about alignment of life goals and experiences, but also looking at the girls judgment.

    After college early to mid 20’s the general consensus has been 5 years or less… there have been exceptions of upward to 10 but those are old family friends… i.e. dating the best friend of an older brother, but that is a rare exception.

    And in those cases a ring and a date should follow… my daughter’s godmother has a daughter who started dating a guy when she was 25 and he was 35, it took him 5 years to pop the question and if he hadn’t done so when he did he was in danger of getting shanked at the next family barbecue… and they knew and liked him.

    A stranger 10 years older… nay, nay… you’d be lucky not to be found by some old men fishing in the next state.

    And after a certain age… especially if you already have kids, dating a woman who is in her 20’s when you are 10 + years older is in many cases both a social and often professional liability.

    True story… Significant Other has a childhood friend who was dating a woman clearly in her 20’s and he brings her to dinner with his peers… late 30’s- 40 something crowd

    Well it turns out during cocktail conversation that she went to the same high school as his daughter… the same year his daughter was a freshman and she was a senior.

    Everyone at the table in perfect unison made the face of judgement… you know the one.

    He broke up with her a week later… he said she had daddy issues ~JS

  • Jhane Sez

    “Yeah, and as much as the manosphere loves to say that sex appeal is more important than anything else, can you imagine your DH married to someone less intelligent, competent or educated than you are? I can’t imagine my husband with anyone much different from me in that department. He likes sex and a hot meal as much as any guy, but he likes some intelligent conversation to go with it.”

    @J…

    I don’t watch Desperate Housewives but a friend related a storyline that is relevant here…

    One of the women thinks that her husband from whom she is separated is dating a hot 20 something yoga instructor so she gathers her 40 something posse to go check her out, they take the class and her friends assure her that “this is just a phase”… cutting to the chase her husband shows up and hugs the 20 something yoga instructor and is set upon by the 40 something posse for being a dirty old man.

    And guess what he is offended… because he is dating her mother the doctor who was taking the class and chatting with the 40 something posse, not the yoga chick who he sees as a kid.

    We do have friends and associates who are into dating 20 somethings but they are limited or excluded from some of our social events because many of us have daughters in the danger zone.

    And while there are the young girls who are outliers and will date much older guys… most of the girls are just grossed out or amused because they think of them as really, really, old.

    I even had a friend of a business associate hit on my daughter in front of me recently trying to friend her on facebook and offering to lend her his copy of Lolita, swearing that it is an experience that she must have before she goes to college.

    My daughter clocked him out the gate and called him on his inappropreate behavior and he got a little miffed and embarrassed that his motives were so transparent to a young acting 17 year old.

    These guys aren’t looking for age appropriate, and intellectual equals I suspect that they are still acting out because the girls in high school and college ignored or intimidated them… and so now they are trying to turn back time, so they can have their shot.

    Most of the guys I know who are looking for LTRs or trying to settle down and have families aren’t interested in girls that young, especially those who are professionally and socially successful (not in an alpha context)… they prefer grown ups ~JS

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    For the record, I’m in my early 20s in grad school. I have absolutely nothing to gain by defending older dudes….

    But why does everyone get so upset about an older guy being attracted to a younger ADULT girl? What is “creepy” about that? Why the hell do we shame the dude by saying “He’s only trying to get what he couldn’t get when he was that age.”? Why does that make him immature? Why is he supposed to stop having fun once he turns 30?

    If the guy can pull that off, I say more power to him. Nothing unnatural about it. People need to stop drinking the haterade.

  • Chris_in_CA

    It’s another way for women to control men’s sexuality, Jimmy. The older women can’t tolerate visual proof that they’ve lost their sexual allure to younger women. So they try to make men ashamed of being attracted to their fertility.

    Nothing but shaming language. And like the wicked witch in fairy tales, it loses its power when help up to a mirror.

  • Jhane Sez

    “But why does everyone get so upset about an older guy being attracted to a younger ADULT girl? What is “creepy” about that? Why the hell do we shame the dude by saying “He’s only trying to get what he couldn’t get when he was that age.”? Why does that make him immature? Why is he supposed to stop having fun once he turns 30?”

    For several reasons…

    1… when it comes to their daughters, sisters, nieces, etc MEN are the ones who say ‘oh hell no… my daughter isn’t dating someone that much older than her.’

    In this instance women are more likely to be of the mind set that he will be more serious and stable… but the MEN are more likely to suss out that dude is just looking for young tail and its not going to be their little girl.
    2. Because once you reach a certain level of life experience (age)… AND you have known a person since they were in high school/ college, it isn’t hard to pick up on their dating patterns.

    i.e. R.Kelly had a notorious reputation for hanging out in Chicago Public High Schools and had previously filed harassment charges against the Chicago Police… because they kept catching him at known teen hang outs… you might be a little too young to remember but he tried to ‘marry’ 15 year old Aaliyah when he was 27.

    3 The whole Peter Pan thing… where old dudes don’t just want to date younger women they want to hang with her peer group and are usually rejected by HER peer group as the creepy old dude.

    4. Even in cultures where women can marry at early ages, including polygamous cultures it is not uncommon for the older men to run off or banish the younger men so they don’t have any sexual competition… because they are preferred by younger women.

    “It’s another way for women to control men’s sexuality, Jimmy. The older women can’t tolerate visual proof that they’ve lost their sexual allure to younger women. So they try to make men ashamed of being attracted to their fertility.”

    @Chris in CA…

    Umm No… dude I still get carded when I buy alcohol, I get hit on by 20 something guys… I have no interest personally in dating children, although I authentically couls.

    I am strictly guarding my daughter against predatory older males that don’t have her best interest at heart… those who want a fresh start at her expense, because they have burned through a bunch of chicks.

    There are women who have married older whom I admire Padma Lakshmi was married to Salman Rushdie… I get it… she was 37 and he was 60 but he is BRILLIANT. He would be welcome into the family.

    Her father is 10+ years older than I am… but if I may say he is a different breed than the guys that post here… he just is.

    And even though that is our story he wouldn’t want that for his daughter.

    I think I have every record that Billy Joel has ever recorded and I have seen him in concert several times… oh but I wouldn’t be at all happy about his 55 year old ex alcoholic, twice divorced azz marrying my 23 year old daughter like he did with Katie Lee… they are now separated, the marriage lasted 5 years.

    I will share the fact that before entering mansphere and reading HUS I was indifferent on the subject of age… especially as it pertains to my daughter… having seen so many positive unions resulting from older male/ younger female unions.

    But you guys have completely changed my mind… there is NO WAY… NONE that I would advise her to do so in today’s SMP.
    And that opinion is solely based upon what I have read by the guys here… nothing else ~JS

  • Emily

    @Doug

    My breasts are fine, I just don’t have hips (well barely). : P

    Overall I’m actually pretty happy with my body. I just think it would be fun to have a “Va Va Voom” Joan Holloway body, if only to try it out for a day.

    Different guys go for different things though, so it all works out in the end. Although we all had the same upbringing, my sisters and I all have totally different natural body types, but none of us have ever lacked for male attention.

    Different girls also have different preferences. I have a weakness for tall skinny guys, whereas a lot of my friends really like “teddy bear” types.

  • Butterfly Flower

    And while there are the young girls who are outliers and will date much older guys… most of the girls are just grossed out or amused because they think of them as really, really, old.

    I was always interested in older guys, especially when I was a teenager [which was only a few months ago :)] Teenage guys are well…teenagers. I wanted someone who was mature. Of course, “older guy” to me was like, late 20’s, possibly early 30’s. 40’s is gross. I mean, my parents are in their 40’s.

    Back in the day [...2010] I was actually bold enough to pursue older guys [older Betas ...shy quiet timid guys are so cute!] They either acted confused, amused, or annoyed.

    What I assume were their thoughts:

    “Awh, this teenage girl has a crush on me! Wait…why does this teenage girl have a crush on me?”
    “I would like to flirt back, but she’s way too young…”
    “Please leave me alone. I want to go to work without feeling an awkward sense of shame due to finding you attractive….”

    To be fair, I’m babyfaced/ look underage – perhaps they were just afraid of ending up in jail.

    I even had a friend of a business associate hit on my daughter in front of me recently trying to friend her on facebook and offering to lend her his copy of Lolita, swearing that it is an experience that she must have before she goes to college.

    My daughter clocked him out the gate and called him on his inappropreate behavior and he got a little miffed and embarrassed that his motives were so transparent to a young acting 17 year old.

    *giggles* I used to love flirting with my father’s business associates. It was more of a silly teenage girl teasing flirty thing, though [Some of them were quite handsome, a girl can't help but flirt] If any of them had pursued me first, I would have been creeped out. & my father would have punched them. Note: There is a difference between older man who is attracted to you as a person, and ephebephile who is attracted to you because you’re 16.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    79 Ramble December 15, 2011 at 3:32 pm wrote:

    Sometimes, the grass on the other side really is greener.

    Apparently also
    The Grass Is Always Greener Over the Septic Tank

    No, I do not know what this is.

    / Kari Hurtta

    ( Got a coffee. )

    Wau, there is now Preview -button !

    ( Preview accepts <hr> -tag, but I guess that it is lost aster posting. )

  • Anna

    I think most girls’, like Butterfly Flower, has had the odd crush on an older man before, but in real life would not go higher than 30s.
    At the moment, I am looking for something serious, and that will not be happening with a man that old. (And in terms of marriage-serious, men die first and I don’t want to spend 40 years alone).
    While I get the argument that men in their 30s have matured and might make great partners for young girls, I am somewhat skeptical. What made him wait till 35 to settle down? It is not only about options. There are plenty of ideal guys who settle down around 28-30. I can say from the alphas or higher betas I am aware of, but also according to statistics, a lot of higher education men within law, medicine and business (whom usually have options with women) settle down before or right around 30. They have had a few years to “play the field” and want a family. If a man is 35 and single I will assume he does not really want to commit, he is pushing it ahead of him, and at some point even he feels a certain biological clock. He is still fertile – but he might not want to be dying at the time of grandchildren. So he looks around. He might also have rounded up a very high number of women. While I don’t mind sexual experience in a guy, there are certainly limits. I don’t want to attend a party where he’s slept with half the girls or run into past lovers on every street corner of his neighborhood. I’d feel like the girl who got with the player once he got desperate.
    @ Jimmy Hendricks, I agree with your principle, I think older women have exaggerated the danger of going out with older men and that it can sometimes be a learning curve for younger girls. As long as they don’t take long-term damage from being hurt, but being hurt is a part of life IMO and as long as you are capable of falling in love, you will get hurt at some point.

  • Isabel

    +1 Anna.

    Chris,

    It’s another way for women to control men’s sexuality, Jimmy. The older women can’t tolerate visual proof that they’ve lost their sexual allure to younger women. So they try to make men ashamed of being attracted to their fertility.

    Nothing but shaming language. And like the wicked witch in fairy tales, it loses its power when help up to a mirror.

    Lol. I’m 19 not long after the holidays and I’m completely and utterly opposed to the concept as a norm. As are most of the people I know, male and female. Young and old. I don’t care about individual couples at all* but when people argue that it’s “the most natural” or good for society — with nothing to back it up — I have every right to call it out. In fact, none of you guys have given any valid arguments for it beyond “shaming!” so far and, no offence, but that just isn’t going to fly. Men have been getting married at a young age to women within or near their own age group for the last two centuries, at least. Long before feminism and fweeeeeedom were buzzwords, and when men (i.e. fathers and brothers) were still in charge of overseeing their daughters’ marriages. I can’t remember who said it (might be Doug? not sure) but someone said that women over 26 should be pressured for being single in an ideal society. I think that’s awesome. I also think that men over 30 should be shamed for being single.

    (*By this I mean I wouldn’t call anyone “creepy” or “naive” for simply acting out their own preferences . Extrapolating this into being good for most young women is just wishful thinking, however. For most girls, it ends at fancying Jon Hamm or George Whatshisface which in itself is another demonstration how of girls permit alphas to break from conventions. It ends there. )

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    OT

    456 Kari Hurtta December 17, 2011 at 6:07 am wrote:

    ( Preview accepts <hr> -tag, but I guess that it is lost aster posting. )

    asterafter

    Yes, <hr> -tag was lost after posting.

    That combined with
    279 Kari Hurtta December 16, 2011 at 1:51 pm wrote:

    @ 206 Jason December 15, 2011 at 10:59 pm; That accepts some html tags, but accepted tags have changed several times and dis not tell what tags are accepted.

    makes impossible to see what is end result of posting even when there is Preview-button. ☹

    I have some time noted that there is needed Preview which does preview via server and process post same way that posting of it does (except that it puts it visible preview -window and no blog and after that allow two possibilities:
    Post post ot blog, and
    Return editing of post.
    )

    However, current Preview-button is better than nothing.

    (Link on #279 should be: 207 Jason December 15, 2011 at 10:59 pm )

  • Butterfly Flower

    I think most girls’, like Butterfly Flower, has had the odd crush on an older man before, but in real life would not go higher than 30s.

    I just find the idea of dating anyone around my parents’ age creepy. I assume most sane young women [without Daddy issues] do. I mean, my parents are old. My Dad owned an Apple Lisa computer. My Mom still has her Debbie Gibson vinyls. Why would I want to date a man that’s as ancient as my parents? I wouldn’t be able to relate.

    Anyway, “older man” to the typical 18 year old, means a 25 year old man. Or at least that’s how my friends and I viewed it back then [err, two years ago]. The 18 year olds chasing after “older men” are going after 20-somethings. Maaaybe a 30 year old.

  • http://Dannyfrom504.wordpress.com Dannyfrom504

    I like this one Tia. I talk to the 30 year old “never married but wanna” ladies all the time and most of them REALLY are under the impression they can still pop out a kid as easily as they could have as their 20 yo ovaries could.
    Most of them are very disappointed.

    Very good article Tia. Gonna “favorite” this page and save it got women I know. Lol.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Danny

      I talk to the 30 year old “never married but wanna” ladies all the time and most of them REALLY are under the impression they can still pop out a kid as easily as they could have as their 20 yo ovaries could.
      Most of them are very disappointed.

      It’s tragic that many women now hitting 30 or 40 wind up serving as some sort of cautionary tale, a lesson in what not to do. It will be even more tragic if women in their 20s don’t learn the lesson.

  • http://Dannyfrom504.wordpress.com Dannyfrom504

    Butterfly Flower-
    I’m 37 and I have routinely have women in their early 20’s come on to me. But I look 26-27. Creepy? For the record, I make sure they know how old I am and typically…..they thank me for being honest and CONTINUE to flirt.

    What’s a single fellah to do?

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    OT

    459 Kari Hurtta December 17, 2011 at 6:58 am wrote:

    I have some time noted that there is needed Preview which does preview via server and process post same way that posting of it does (except that it puts it visible preview -window and no blog and after that allow two possibilities:
    Post post ot blog, and
    Return editing of post.
    )

    So which preview plugins uses same html -tag filtering than posting uses? For example, how Filosofo Comments Preview -plugin works? There is apparently very many different plugins (and preview plugins also). I know nothing about WordPress (and know nothing about php either.)

    Hope ?

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  • Escoffier

    I’m sure Bollick is not bad looking IRL but the pictures of her in the Atlantic made her look like a shrew frankly. She just radiated “this conversation will be unpleasant (for you).”

    As a general matter (maybe because I am old) I find that the PUAs skew the age/beauty curve too far to the left. That is, they find females ugly and fading way before I do. 29 and hitting the wall? Come on. I realize that, statistically, fertility is going but still.

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  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #472 susan

    by “one last fling” he meant, one last sexual fling before they broke up for good. i think they were on and off before then, or something.

    tom brady and bridget moynahan were definitely together for a long time.

    not to AGAIN derail this thread — although i have to say, ramble, i LOVE your incessant rambling about CH and her body issues, you know your own blog my man — so yeah, not to derail this thread again, but i always thought that BM was very attractive.

    in fact, i would guess that if i saw BM and GB both at a cocktail party, and i didn’t know who either of them were, i would think that BM was really hot and beautiful, and that GB was some sort of freak alien weirdo.

    but that’s the power of the media to distort our sexual preferences. cause WAY many more guys lust after GB than after BM.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    this is probably the ideal feminine body for me:

    http://youtu.be/NUwK9zav-tw

    nane’s body is lean and slender, but athletic and fit, and she has soft but firm curves to her legs, narrow hips, but an even narrower waist, and flat stomach.

    her tits could be a bit bigger, but with legs like that, i don’t think i would even notice.

    the guy’s body is probably ideal too. muscular but not overly so.

    of course, this video is for a parisian fashion company.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsuné

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rivelino

      Interesting, I would call her stick thin, no curves, sharp points. Her legs are actually concave. The fact that she’s in fashion means that she is probably anorexic by definition. I know you’re a fashion photog, so I’m sure you’re used to it. That too is the power of the media.

      So yeah, re your question of who is promoting the anorexic look? You are.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    Fling? Didn’t they date for 2 or 3 years?

    Yeah but that’s not when she got “accidentally” preggers. It was during a last visit to Brady from Cali before the broke up over his going exclusive with Giselle. 10 to 1 she had been on the pill, Brady was used to that with her, and she stopped being on it without telling him.

    Now she’s on an annuity from him for the next 18+ years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now she’s on an annuity from him for the next 18+ years.

      If she really did deceive him that’s pretty low. He seems to be a really good father to BM’s son. I don’t know if anyone else has noticed, but his son with her is a lot better looking than her son with Gisele.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #474 susan

    susan, you throw around the term “anorexic” in the same way that other women throw around the term “pedophile” and “pervert”.

    i think the girl in the kitsune video is actually probably slightly skinnier than what is the “true ideal” (??), and yeah, that skinnier look comes from fashion, and yeah i would agree that i am “promoting it” in the sense that i consider this look to be hotter than the marilyn look — but again, why do you purposely (?) distort the argument?

    the argument is that the fashion INDUSTRY promotes this look, and that this look is HEADED UP by and CONSUMED BY women. it is nice that you try to blame me for promoting this “anorexic” look, and i will take as much blame as you want to throw at me — i LOVE skinny girls, and by skinny i mean slender and lean — but you should “man up” and blame who is REALLY to blame: anna wintour and all the powerful women in fashion, marc jacobs and all the powerful GAY men in fashion, and ALL THE WOMEN around the world who consume fashion.

    it’s true — straight men for the most part prefer more “feminine” chicks, softer curves, bigger tits, rounder asses, etc etc — remember the huge hit that anna nicole smith became after she became a guess girl? — and also look at the SI swimsuit issue, lots of tits there — and also look at the thread on roosh’s forum “what do you guys consider a 10?” and you will see some really “thick girls” there too:

    http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-3335.html

    so yeah, most guys like tits and ass, fantastic. it’s the POWERFUL WOMEN IN FASHION who somehow don’t like tits and ass. not sure why. interesting to think about this and research this.

    maybe because fashion — real high fashion, expensive fashion — is geared towards older, wealthier women in their 40s and 50s, and so these older women don’t want to be reminded of what they don’t have any more?

    just thinking out loud.

    and yeah, i think these new aesthetic values are confusing some men. the media tells them to lust after 6’0 chicks with really really long legs, and so then they want tits too, which is why we end up with girls like GB.

    anyway, i always kind of had in the back of my mind that the REAL best body in hollywood belonged to jennifer aniston, back in the day.

    again, she is similar to the girl in the video, only a bit “rounder” and a bit more “normal”, not as skinny.

    something like this, her in 2004:

    http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-body/pictures/jennifer-aniston-turns-41-her-hottest-bikini-shots-2010102/6815

    funny, at work there is this girl agatha who has a similar body to JA’s: just very feminine, with nice “normal” curves, very sexy, nice waist, nice legs, nice tits — and yet i still prefer CC’s body, more extreme skinny with these really skinny legs and really big tits (which might be fake).

    agatha has more of the “real” ideal feminine body, more like the botticelli venus girl:

    http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jgloede/Botticelli_Venus.jpg

    this reminds me, half sigma was talking about this, beauty in art — one of my favorite topics — and a commenter mentioned that velazquez’s rokeby venus probably had the ideal body:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RokebyVenus.jpg

    he might be right.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @rivelino

      susan, you throw around the term “anorexic” in the same way that other women throw around the term “pedophile” and “pervert”.

      Well, they’re both mental disorders, so that makes perfect sense. The romanticizing of anorexia in the fashion media has made many women ill, infertile, and in some cases, dead.

      am “promoting it” in the sense that i consider this look to be hotter than the marilyn look — but again, why do you purposely (?) distort the argument?

      How am I distorting the argument? Here’s what’s interesting. Men too are victims of cultural programming. When you admire a rexy body you are supplanting natural male instinct with culturally learned behavior. Many fashion models have written memoirs, and it’s well known that very few models menstruate. Their body fat percentage is just too low to have a normal cycle. So you are sexually attracted to a woman who is probably not ovulating, who is for all intents and purposes infertile.

      I agree that the look is primarily controlled by women and gay men in fashion. I’m just saying that straight men are buying into it too. The fact that any man would find Gisele sexy is mind boggling, based on fertility cues. She is perhaps the most androgynous model of the last 50 years. Yet Lokland is all nom nom nom. That’s whacked. He’s attracted, I get it, but she would have had no suitors on the Serengeti 100,000 years ago, or even in NYC 50 years ago.

      Straight men are lusting after the women gay men tell them are sexy.

      Jennifer Aniston does have an amazing body, and her legs are at least double the size of the girl in that fashion video. She is actually fairly muscular. She looks healthy.

      I don’t understand how you can say that you think Rokeby’s Venus is ideal, and still say this:

      i still prefer CC’s body, more extreme skinny with these really skinny legs and really big tits (which might be fake).

      If Rokeby’s Venus were a celebrity right now you’d think she was fat, no question. Look at that ass, the width of her hips. Women who look like that today generally hate their own bodies. And they get less male attention, in general, than rexy girls.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    half sigma’s post on the topic:

    http://www.halfsigma.com/2008/12/is-this-woman-hot.html

    and agnostic’s comment. it’s pretty good:

    “Most Baroque painters didn’t make their women *fat* fat — no double-chins, puffy faces, no flabby arms, cankles, etc. They larded them up around the middle, but that’s about it.

    Spanish Baroque women don’t look like seacows, though — overly voluptuous figures being shunned by the church. (God bless the Spanish Inquisition.) Here’s one of the few nudes of the time in Spain, by Velazquez:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rokeby_Venus

    Yeah, now that’s more like it. It was slashed by some homely suffragette who lamented how men stared at it all day long — ignoring the perfectly walrusine guts of the other 17th C. Venuses.

    That’s the feminists’ wonder-world, btw: hacking up the beautiful to force your eyes upon the ugly.”

  • Anna

    ” I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over. You tell us, “Oh, your fertile years rapidly decline in your mid-20s.” Well, if I’m not dating anyone, and I want to have a family, what is that information going to do for me?”

    I don’t know where the idea that fertility lasts forever comes from. Perhaps some Hollywood actresses who got pregnant at 40.
    Furthermore, this article is discussing the possibility of having A baby. Isn’t it perfectly normal to want more than one? This is even more a reason to start filtering and look for husband-material early on. I have one older sister only, and I would like 3 children myself. And I want to have a few years between each. So you need to start sometime! I believe most people don’t want to rush either, you want to be dating a while before getting married, and to stay married some time before planning children. Also taking into account that I don’t want to be an old mum, it makes perfect sense to start the process of looking at 21. I grew up in a country where most women focus on their career and where SATC is big – when I was 15 I’d probably would have said “not settling down until 30 at LEAST”.

    SATC was supposed to make women feel less guilty about making their own choices, but ended up teaching the younger generations the wrong things. I grew up with SATC, and it has influenced a lot of my friends.
    I remember one scene from the final season where Carrie and Charlotte are discussing babies, Carrie has just started dating a new man in his early 50s, who’s had a vasectomy and Charlotte asks if it’s reversible, to which Carrie replies “I can’t ask him that! We’ve just started dating!”. Charlotte says “but we’re 38! These are the years!”
    I remember watching that and thinking what is she on about, those WERE the years. I believe a man like Carrie’s boyfriend at the time, with one child and a vasectomy, is dating a woman at 38 because he assumes she is past that stage and isn’t looking to have children.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez—

    Paul McCartney’s situation was really sad because he had just lost Linda a few years before he got with Heather Mills… who was by anyones definition a piece of work.

    And in the end she was awarded 38.5 M in settlement which is a pittance considering Paul’s net worth… and no I am not saying that she is entitled to more because by all accounts she is a horrible human being

    Piss off feminist Team Woman.

    That number was probably about half of the increase of Paul McCartney’s wealth during their marriage. Which she did absolutely nothing to deserve. Britain only started following that American post 70s (disgusting) practice after a high court decision in 2000.

    That whore (literally apparently) didn’t deserve that kind of money from Paul McCartney. She was an horrific wife and human being. Why the hell should she get to live a lifestyle similar to the one she lived with him after failing utterly as his wife. I’d say give her one million and tell her to go to work. She’s doing nothing for him post divorce, why the hell should she get to live off him after their marriage is over.

    Money is also power. He shouldn’t have to have given a large chunk of it to her. I don’t care that it wouldn’t maim him. She doesn’t deserve it, the skank.

    Period.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why the hell should she get to live a lifestyle similar to the one she lived with him after failing utterly as his wife. I’d say give her one million and tell her to go to work. She’s doing nothing for him post divorce, why the hell should she get to live off him after their marriage is over.

      They do have a child. This is one thing men often fail to mention. I believe McCartney wants his daughter raised in the same degree of affluence in both households. And I know it’s a factor judges consider as well. It’s thought not beneficial to the child to have Dad living on an incredible estate while mom has a fifth floor walkup in Soho.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez—

    People forget the historical context of how they met.

    Kobe was 21 and Vanessa was 16 and still in high school when they started dating… wikipedia says she was 17 but if you google it you will find that this was a hot topic, because they had been dating for several months before the video shoot in question… in fact it is rumored that she got the job because of her relationship with Kobe.
    Her parents found out about the relationship and basically told him that if he didn’t marry her they would file statutory rape charges, because he wasn’t going to pump and dump their daughter.

    He had a reputation to protect and so knowing her less than a year he married her… against his parents wishes… parents he didn’t speak to for a couple of years because they didn’t like her or her family.

    So let’s put this in perspective… if Kobe is 33 and they have been married 11 years then she is what 28 or 29 (depending on who you believe)… and she lacks loyalty because she is opting out of a marriage that started with a grown man playing in the NBA who married a girl barely out of high school and cheated on her the whole time.

    Her family and her are obviously disgusting gold diggers of the worst kind, enabled by America’s obscenely misandrous divorces laws, post the 70s, courtesy of hyper American feminism.

    16 is plenty old enough for sex to not be statutory rape, and almost all of the world outside of the feminist taken over US thinks so.

    So her family and her forced the only 4 to 5 years older Kobe Bryant into a shotgun wedding, and that means she deserves to get 100 million dollars for all her totally unproven super amazing skilz as a wife????? Please. She deserves a tiny fraction of that. What extraordinary stuff has she done??????????

    It’s obscene.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I like to see cheaters pay through the nose. Make the f*ckers pay.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    119 Isabel December 15, 2011 at 4:39 pm wrote:

    Fml.

    fml =  Fuck My Life ?

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

    ( Is it time for a evening coffee ? )

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Susan #462

    My comment was to both; however, with respect to the “after” pic, one is reminded of a certain cartoon blog site I ran into a couple of years ago where the women’s tits were all drawn in this grotesque way, like torpedoes had been welded on to them, and I could only imagine their appeal would be to the ultimate “tit” men, the latter snorting North Idaho style methamphetamine off a Bowie knife and then jerking themselves off into oblivion. The drag queen analogy still fits; the former picture, despite its display of flesh, would in all likelihood still be somewhat in reach for the average male queen, although jeez the wax job would be frightful to contemplate. BTW the breast in pic #1 do not look good; they evoke the Friday Night Shriners drag show, with coconut shells for tits, dudes in grass skirts, etc.

    The second pic would be more the aspirational drag queen, unachievable without serious surgery, hormones etc, and again in its theatrical overtstatement and sheer grandiosity missing the vital womanly essence, the true feminine brio, which is not achieved in glandular monstrosity but in subtlety, grace, poise and charm. If tit size were the measure Golda Meir would have been the sexiest woman of her time. Dudes who dig this look are fixated on their Wonder Woman jackoff years (her inclusion in the Justice League was initially opposed by the undersigned, age 8; I gradually began to appreciate her contribution, and understand the merits of her invisible airplane (talk about rank manipulation)).

    BTW Susan I am aware of your corruption. Reading this I was reminded of ?, what was him name-Mr. Blackwell? My tone evokes him, which as a straight guy is unnerving to say the least. Unlike him though I have actually suckled a woman’s breast beyond infancy, etc. Never understood how gay dudes pull off the style smack on straight women, and it’s pretty much de rigueur. If a lesbian told me how to dress I’d shove her into a wall.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Susan-Meant to say your corruption of me. Your virtue is of course totally pure, as clear as an unmuddied lake, as an azure sky on a summer’ day (ref Anthony Burgess “A Clockwork Orange”)

  • Doug1

    Butterfly Flower–

    Congrats on your engagement (to a man 8 years older)!!

  • OffTheCuff

    Not all implants have that “implant look,” which technically is termed projection. Some women actually want that implant look and go for high-projection products. That’s what you see, the “grapefruit on a table” look.

    Others keep a natural shape. FFY is right, there are tons of women out there who have had discreet upgrades, with teardrop shaped implant, set behind the muscle wall, and you’d never know. This stuff isn’t obvious unless you’ve actually had a consult with a plastic surgeon and seen books of before/after pictures, or done the same work online.

    In the words of Jimmy Kimmel: they’re real if I can touch them.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    “In the words of Jimmy Kimmel: they’re real if I can touch them.”

    hilarious.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh—

    “I don’t care how much he cheated, she shouldn’t be able to get that.”

    Why not? It’s like the concept of a flat tax rate. Flat alimony rate. It’s not like he’ll want for money now.

    Because Mrs. Kobe Bryant didn’t remotely do anything to deserve 100 million. Kobe did, she didn’t. She’ll be doing nothing for him post divorce. Why the hell should he have to transfer half his loot to her so she can live without him in the style to which she was accustomed when living with him, and then more than some.

    Big money is also power. He shouldn’t have to transfer half his ginormous money power to her, against his will. She was not his “equal business partner”.

    Totally opposed and would never marry under that regime. A prenup that will be upheld, or just NOoooooooo!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    134 The Private Man December 15, 2011 at 5:05 pm wrote:

    I strongly suspect that college admissions officers are having a conniption of this gender imbalance so there is likely an ad hoc form of affirmative action going on behind closed doors during the application review process.

    What sometimes is tried, was changing scores what different criterions on application process gives. Not that gender gices scores, but other thing. Not that this helped much gender balance for teacher education.

    ( Someones suspected that a teacher education was too much ingrained with feminism ambiance that this is what you can expect. I suspect that there is also other reasons. )

    / Kari Hurtta

    ( I think that a evening coffee is ready… )

  • Stingray

    Doug1,

    I haven’t read all of the comments as I have fallen behind and there are too many. If this was addressed, apologies. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about a woman getting alimony that was a stay at home wife and mother and did take good care of her husband and the children (if they had them)? She now has very few viable skills to help her get a job. I’m not trying to start anything here, but asking out of curiosity.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #483

    “Your virtue is of course totally pure”

    TV hitting on susan! i love it.

  • Doug1

    Anna–

    I believe most people don’t want to rush either, you want to be dating a while before getting married, and to stay married some time before planning children.

    Very level headed comment in general. As to what I quote I’d drop the last phrase. Yeah be dating for a while before marrying, but then go for preggers right after tying the knot.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    Why shouldn’t Kobe have to give his wife half? Do you know the circumstances of their breakup?

    Why should any wife get half, especially when half is one hell of a lot, when she wasn’t in actual fact, his equal business partner?????

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why should any wife get half, especially when half is one hell of a lot, when she wasn’t in actual fact, his equal business partner?????

      She was his life partner, and he violated the contract.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #480

    “16 is plenty old enough for sex to not be statutory rape, and almost all of the world outside of the feminist taken over US thinks so.”

    amen, doug.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #492

    “Why should any wife get half, especially when half is one hell of a lot, when she wasn’t in actual fact, his equal business partner?????”

    amen again.

    doug, i only disagree with you on implants.

    maybe it’s just because surgery overall creeps me out. the idea of an xacto blade slicing open skin — GROSS.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    ON PANTIES (conclusion)
    (AUTHOR’S NOTE: In my excitement I forgot the best part of my missive on panties,my addressing them “in action”. I correct that now.)

    There is no manifestation of the panty that can take anything away from its allure, its mystery, its beauty. Even when a woman uses the toilet, a situation which most women do not regard as an opportunity to bask in feminine pulchritude, one still observes the panty “at half mast”, a silent sentinel protecting her womanhood in its vulnerable exposure, calmly awaiting its return, which for the male is rarely glimpsed unless one’s SO is secure enough to allow him to observe her in elimination (very rare); most often it is seen depicted on the screen, and although posed is still delightful to watch, as she pulls them up and does that girlish wiggle associated with its return (also used to get into tight jeans), a near dance step, a frisky display of her hip rotation that a male cannot watch with indifference.

    But the ultimate experience for the man is its removal in extremis, when you and she have been going at it a while, and now the inevitable resolution is at hand. She stands, braless, in her panties, a look both imploring and secure, as she allows you to remove them. Your trembling hands go to her hips, and in a synchronized pull create what Tom Robbins calls “the love parachute”. But as you do the “center’ of the panty, moist with her excitement, refuses to yield its place, clings to the damp (I know; that’s hackneyed, but “stick” with me (pun)) folds, outlining them, and as lovers in a last kiss at the train depot in a WWII movie, desperately holding on to the last precious seconds until mwwah! it is over, all that is left for the panty/vulva is to say “goodbye,I love you, I will wait for you, I will never forget you” as the deep dark mysterious train makes its appearance, ghastly flecks of smoke and ash belching forth, a whistle tearing the moment in half.

    ACKNOWLEDGMENT

    At no time during the writing of this or the preceding piece did the author envision, contemplate, ruminate upon or in any way consider Susan Walsh’s panties. Those of you who have implied otherwise, and have also made suggestions concerning my “lurid” (your word) postings here, have failed to take into account that I am an attorney. Those of you who are attorneys, or involved with one (3/4 of Americans, and climbing) recognize that our training allows us to refrain from indulging in the distractions common among the non-attorney populace, focusing our attention on the precise issues at hand, not allowing “personal” affectation to play the slightest role in our dispassionate discourse as I must humbly suggest my writing so uniquely demonstrates.

    BTW continue to ignore me all you “hookers” (my new name for readers/contributors at hookingupsmart; catchy, huh?). Uncle Tom doesnt’ mind at all; I remain like the not-really-avuncular-more-of-an-asshole uncle, the kind many of you will be subjected to at the holidays, the one who spouts complete non sequiturs at the dinner table, the one you ignore the way you ignore particularly loud farts at a public gatherings but cannot ignore the effects of its pungency, so ripe you forget the trail of the discussion entirely. I ain’t goin’ nowhere.

  • Doug1

    Stingray—

    I haven’t read all of the comments as I have fallen behind and there are too many. If this was addressed, apologies. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about a woman getting alimony that was a stay at home wife and mother and did take good care of her husband and the children (if they had them)? She now has very few viable skills to help her get a job. I’m not trying to start anything here, but asking out of curiosity.

    I personally don’t believe in wives staying at home until all the kids go off to college, and even after that (it tends to remain after that if they’ve done it for that long). More like until the youngest kid is in kindergarden and then she works part time or light full time. What with daycare, and all the modern conveniences at home I just don’t think it’s necessary to be a good mom to stay at home longer than that. While the kids are still young, child support=also stealth alimony is plenty in the US. Plus she should have to go to work.

    I’d be pretty much a hawk on it in a prenup. I might give her half the increase in wealth I earned during periods she was stay at home until the youngest was of kindergarten age, plus maybe half the equity of the house in the prenup. I think women, who overall file for divorce 2.5x as much as men, and are the one’s wanting the relationship to end among college educated couples with kids about 90% of the time according to divorce lawyers. So I want to incent her not to divorce if we’re gonna have kids, trying to pretty much right after getting hitched.

    My preference is for a wife to not have a graduate or professional degree but to start the hunt for a husband no later than a year or two post college, without slutting up in college or subsequently – but to be smart enough to be able to get into a good graduate program. If there were a divorce, she could go and say get an MBA, an MA in something career oriented, and so on. Student loans for that.

    However in actual fact if I were the one wanting the divorce due to no great fault of hers, but looking to trade up to a younger model (as feminists through our media so often paint as the usual case when it very much isn’t), then I’d probably pay her grad school costs, within reason, post divorce.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    If she really did deceive him that’s pretty low.

    Smartish girls are really good at not getting preggers when they don’t want to. It might have been a subconscious ooops, but it looks incredibly like an ooops of some sort.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #496 susan

    ” but his son with her is a lot better looking than her son with Gisele.”

    fascinating, someone should do a story on this.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    Yeah I don’t like the way Giselle looks very much either. Not feminine enough looking. Plus he should have gone for a younger chick.

  • Stingray

    Doug1,

    It sounds like you are being quite fair. However, I think you would be surprised at how much, with the declining economy and with public educations going down the tubes, how much an equal partner a wife can make herself these days, if the husband and wife choose this route. I am talking about homeschooling and other additional things a wife can do around the house. These things (canning, gardening, drying food, etc) may not be necessary now, but are making an amazing come back with more people finding themselves out of work. I only think this trend will continue with the economy not looking like it is going to turn around any time soon.

    I also think that the divorce rate will begin to decline as women will not be able to divorce as readily as there simply won’t be enough money to do so.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #501 susan

    “I agree that the look is primarily controlled by women and gay men in fashion. I’m just saying that straight men are buying into it too. ”

    so then can you please lay the blame for this “skinny girl anorexic look” on anna wintour, and admit that women are keeping other women down, instead of just blaming “society” or “the media”.

    and i don’t know too much about anorexia, but i imagine a truly anorexic girl looks like this:

    http://momgrind.com/2010/10/27/talking-about-anorexia/

    and not like this:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4cIz6x9lZ-4/Ta8HWmFwNvI/AAAAAAAAAQc/i_XKy96RbBc/s1600/Gisele%2BBundchen%2BThigh.jpg

    gisele has fantastic thighs, meaty and muscular. her ass is pretty good too. she just has REALLY narrow hips and no waist.

    but in a lot of pictures, she looks like a really hot chick, just really long.

    look at this pic of gisele and tell me that this isn’t the “updated” version of the rokeby venus: big tits, narrow waist, hourglass figure.

    http://193.105.21.101/image/1878/thumb3_gisele_bundchen_hot_naked_body.jpg

    yeah, it’s not a “real” pic, it’s all lighting and photoshop and styling and posing, etc. — but the rokeby venus wasn’t real either.

    they are just images of ideal beauty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rivelino

      That pic of the anorexic girl looks like she is near death, weighing < 80 lbs. In fact, she was probably anorexic when she weighed 115. Anorexia just means disordered eating leading to starvation. Fashion models frequently eat wet cotton balls to get a sense of fullness. Anorexia?

      Anna Wintour didn’t invent the problem, there have been other times in history when a boyish stick figure was fashionable, i.e. the 20s. The difference today is that those boyish girls can get funbags inserted into their flat chest cavity. So the media is culpable, fashion designers are culpable, even fashion photographers are culpable. Ultimately, men and women buy into it too. We’re all culpable.

      The contemporary ideal of American beauty is unhealthy. The good news is, there are many men who still heed those primal instincts. Their number may be dwindling, but they’re out there.

  • I thought *I* was Bob

    I read somewhere that the ideal woman’s age is half the man’s age + 7. That formula would have fourteen year olds dating each other. The older the woman gets, the wider the acceptable age range.

    w = m/2 + 7
    m = (w – 7) * 2

    I am uneasy with the idea of girls still in high school dating older men, but at some point she has to be officially out of the play pen.

    That wouldn’t eliminate my anxiety about my daughter.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That wouldn’t eliminate my anxiety about my daughter.

      That is what it boils down to. Men and women both talk in abstract terms about what is and isn’t acceptable, but when you come right down to it, what you want for your own child is probably a better gauge of what you truly believe. I’m opposed to sex-positive feminism, open relationships and abortions for minors without parental approval – all because I would never want that for my own daughter. I think that’s probably true for nearly all mothers, including the ones whose daughters are doing these very things.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    They do have a child. This is one thing men often fail to mention. I believe McCartney wants his daughter raised in the same degree of affluence in both households. And I know it’s a factor judges consider as well. It’s thought not beneficial to the child to have Dad living on an incredible estate while mom has a fifth floor walkup in Soho.

    Thought not beneficial by feminists, largely.

    Then give him custody if he wants it. Problem solved.

    Research has shown that the woman almost always getting custody if she both wants it and isn’t an incredibly easy to prove unfit mother in most states, plus a ginormormous percentage of the man’s after tax income in high tax states if he’s a strong earner, are the biggest factors in leading women to file for divorce a lot more often than men in those (most) American states.

    I think the default should be joint physical custody, 50 50 if the man wants that, with no child support paid to the ex wife, but rather only directly (and in much more moderate a degree most likely) in supporting the child while in his care. When that isn’t feasible then she gets custody until 9 years old and child support as well, while he gets it from 9 to 18. Child support should be reduced to the same percentages as the state applies today, but to after tax, rather than pre tax income. She should be assessed child support when he gets custody after 9 years old.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #504
    #505

    “I like to see cheaters pay through the nose. Make the f*ckers pay.”

    “She was his life partner, and he violated the contract.”

    so simple, so convenient.

    i KNOW you are capable of complex, critical thinking susan.

    i know you are.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rivelino

      i KNOW you are capable of complex, critical thinking susan.

      Principles are simple and straightforward. It’s only circumstances that get complicated.

      Don’t cheat.
      Don’t lie.
      Don’t break promises.

      See? It’s simple!

  • OffTheCuff

    The “recent comment” links are broken for me. It takes me to the top of page 3, not the clicked comment on the last page.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    She was his life partner, and he violated the contract.

    Not worth that kind of money by one hell of a long shot.

    Women violated it in the same cheating way all the time, and get rewarded rather than punished for it in divorce. Totally misandrous unfair. Younger women admit to cheating almost as often as men in anonymous survey, and we know that women lie down even in anonymous survey with respect to numbers of sex partners and cheating. Yet they get rewarded for that cheating and their husbands punished just as much as if he’d cheated, in American and now British divorce.

    Completely unfair.

    And you’re not being remotely fair to men on this Susan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      Women violated it in the same cheating way all the time, and get rewarded rather than punished for it in divorce.

      That is unfair. I would be equally fair to men and women by offering similar penalties to each. But as long as you have one person at home taking care of kids (I did it for 15 years) they will be sacrificing pay, career development, etc. And they need to be compensated. A percentage basis makes more sense than some flat dollar amount.

      I agree that current laws are misandrist. I don’t think the solution is to add misogynistic laws to the mix.

  • Anna

    @ Susan
    I don’t find Gisele beautiful either, but I don’t think she is the best example in this case. She does have a particular androgynous face, much more than many models. Women like Natalia Vodianova, Miranda Kerr and Candice Swanepoel are slim, but with much more feminine faces. The models working with underwear do usually look more like this.
    I know quite a bit of models, and I think it is an exaggeration to say that “very few menstruate”. Not having a period is a lot more common among young models than many think, but the ones who do, are not in minority.

    I feel the need to mention this, at is is often overlooked. If we put men’s opinion on the side for a moment – female bodies have other functions than being the attention of men 24/7 after all. I know a few very skinny female models, one of them a school friend of mine. She is 5″11 and skinny to an extent that I believe I can say with 100% certainty that no men find it attractive, even if they happen to like slim girls. She eats whatever she likes, but there is no hints of curves anywhere, and there are bones sticking out. A designer she was sent to work with in Milan sent her back home because she was too thin – that should give you an idea. When a tabloid run an ad about her (non-fashion related) there were comments in the commenting field were guys would say “eww” or “that is disgusting”. I wonder if they have the slightest idea what that does to an 18 year old girl’s mind. She is no longer modeling, she quit not long after and is studying nanotechnology.

    So my point is it is okay to harass women for being slim without being corrected, in a way which wouldn’t happen if the woman was fat (the feminists would march in for support). I am fed up with people dictating what a “real woman” looks like.

    My main problem with it is this: it seems there is a common opinion that as the gay fashion designers don’t want women to have curves, slim girls are simply buying into some fashion fantasy – they are clueless on what men like, they are naive and easily influenced, they try to be as thin as possible without being aware that it is “disgusting”. Following many blogs focusing on appearance and having a look at tumblr, you can see that most girls want to look like Adriana Lima – a woman most men seem to agree is attractive. However it is difficult to achieve without good genes and surgery, a flat stomach is the closest most can get.

    I don’t mind the painfully thin catwalk models. They are there to advertise clothes, straight men are not, and have never been the target for the advertising. If there were sex appeal, it would take attention away from the design. Boobs would jump out of tops which could not be worn with a bra. And designer wear do look better at thin bodies – what those bodies look like without clothes is a different issue. But fashion is fashion and not sex, and I understand designers perfectly well to simply want their clothes to look as good as possible. Now I’m talking about the range of clothing presented on a catwalk, not just a womanly dress cut 50’s style, which would look better on a curvy woman. Christina Hendricks looks good in a dress like that, but it is also one of the few items she looks good in.

    If someone should be blamed for promoting bad body image, I think company’s like Victoria’s Secret are far worse than regular designers. At least the models on Fashion Week are thin, and it’s an honest case. VS take some of the same thin models, spraytan them, put them in heels, add push up bras with 3 sets of padding, loads of makeup, hair extensions and make the same women into sex icons. Their airbrushing is the worst – all VS models look the same, Miranda Kerr have no different shape to Adriana Lima. Candice Swanepoel, a humble chest size, looks like a DD in their photos. Not embracing the differences they so strongly go on about is what annoys me with VS. That, and all the crap on “VS makes me feel strong and confident” which the models are told to say in interviews.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      Misconceptions
      Popular media demands that women maintain body fat percentage around 10 percent to be accepted as beautiful. This level, often seen in runway and magazine models, is not healthy and can lead to problems with menstruation. It is healthy and necessary to have a thin layer of fat covering your body.

      Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/135251-healthy-percentage-body-fat-women/#ixzz1goiKzbf4

      A young woman I know is 5’4″ and was at around 110 lbs. for a year, the last 9 months of which she did not menstruate. This is common. Due to the lack of estrogen, she now has chronic thinning of the vaginal tissue, which tears easily. There is also scarring, including on the clitoral hood, which makes orgasm nearly impossible. This is also common, though no one talks about it. In fact, a friend of mine who is a pediatrician says that many young women go on the pill for the express purpose of menstruating. Their bodies won’t do it naturally, and they really need the estrogen for bone strength.

      Your friend might want to seek medical help – it sounds like her thyroid is on overdrive, and that low level of bodyfat puts her at risk for a lot of problems.

      In any case, it’s very unusual for a woman to feel ashamed of being too thin. Whereas most women, even those with healthy, beautiful bodies, often feel ashamed and think they’re fat, even disgusting. That’s a serious mental health issue in the U.S.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Evening all,

    If I may I would like to add my own Amens to the two previous ones of Rivelino (493, 494), & also let out a Hallelujah to the praising of the natural form of womankind. Fake tits are just about the least attractive things I can think of on a girl, other than maybe a bullet wound through the teeth.

    Knives. Scars. Sacks of plastic… ack. *shudder*

    Kari, “they say the grass is greener on the other side” is an old saying, it means people always think what they don’t have yet must be so much better than what they already do. There’s a song my dad used to sing when i was little that went

    “They say the grass is greener on the other side
    but when they cross over they find
    everybody’s searching like you & me
    Trying to find peace of mind”

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “She was his life partner, and he violated the contract.”

    Point being what? If she broke the contract he wouldn’t be paid anything.
    Seriously I would like this point if it worked in both directions but thats simply not the case.

    Also, if Daddy makes more money and we all want kiddy to have a more affluent lifestyle. Daddy should have custody. DUH!

    Last, in regards to general divorce law. I think there should be a maximum amount that someone can recieve per year of marriage in a settlement. For example Kobe was married 15 years. Maybe 100k a year so 1.5 mill.

    “I like to see cheaters pay through the nose. Make the f*ckers pay.”

    Um yeah only if they have a penis though right?
    Women cuckolds man, 10 years later man finds out and he is still responsible for child support. Draconian much?

    Again, I agree with your point but it has to apply to both sexs. Which sadly is just not the case.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I think we are on the same page. The law must apply equally to both sexes.

      Also, if Daddy makes more money and we all want kiddy to have a more affluent lifestyle. Daddy should have custody. DUH!

      Hmmm, not so fast. Why should faithful mom have to give her children to cheating dad? Dad’s lifestyle will likely be correctly perceived as detrimental to raising healthy children.

      If mom is a cheater and destroyed the marriage it works the same way for her. That’s fair.

  • Doug1

    Bob (the other one)–

    If we go with the Wikipedia that she was 17 when they first hooked up rather than the Huffington Post’s she was 18, then your (classic) formula means she should have been 18 to Kobe’s 22. Close enough.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    I think the notion that divorcing women should be able to live “in the style to which they’ve become accustomed” should be tossed completely out the window at a time when women can earn as strongly as men at all levels of the workforce if they have they individually have the talent and ambition enough to do so. That is especially true in a time of no fault divorce, with college educated women wanting divorce vastly more often than men. Disincent that!!!

    What the hell is she doing for him post divorce??????

    What the hell has feminism done for men????

    Totally unfair misandrous divorce laws.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      I agree with you about no-fault divorce.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    “I like to see cheaters pay through the nose. Make the f*ckers pay.”

    “She was his life partner, and he violated the contract.”

    Typical American feminist “give meeee give meeeee.” “I want the pooooower (even though I didn’t earn it)”.

  • Doug1

    That pic of the anorexic girl looks like she is near death, weighing < 80 lbs. In fact, she was probably anorexic when she weighed 115

    Anorexia’s one hella lot less of a problem in this country and Britain than obesity is.

    My ideal body type is something like Kim Kardashian. She’s more than a little dim however. (Has a smart if damn pushy mom/agent/manager however.)

  • Doug1

    BTW, I’m about sure that sex tape they claim to be so embarrassed about (well her step dad Jenner seems to genuinely be) was planned by Kim’s agent/manager mother, at least the public internet “mysterious” release of it was. Planned so as to get Kim some major publicity. They started their reality series about six months after the “scandal”. I’d also guess her step dad Bruce Jenner is still totally in the dark about it, which also works to their public image advantage.

  • Höllenhund

    Now people are basically arguing that Gisele Bündchen is mannish and too skinny? The mind boggles.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQiju8mqVn8

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      She looks like a drag queen. You’re just proving you drank the kool-aid.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    But as long as you have one person at home taking care of kids (I did it for 15 years) they will be sacrificing pay, career development, etc. And they need to be compensated. A percentage basis makes more sense than some flat dollar amount.

    Well I don’t believe in that, as I said above in answer to Stingray’s question. I think that’s far to long.

    As to percentage amount, yeah maybe when both spouses want that long a stay at home period (they often don’t, women just often refuse to go back to work, usually by finding excuses for the time being and keep putting it off) — but only up to some ceiling. No way does any wife deserve multi millions for just being a wife, even a good one. And no she doesn’t deserve that kind of punishment power either. He doesn’t have it against her cheating, it’s not feasible, so she shouldn’t get it either. Maybe if the wife gets zero as her punishment if she cheats, but not otherwise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      Maybe if the wife gets zero as her punishment if she cheats, but not otherwise.

      FWIW, I would totally support this. I’m not looking for a double standard.

  • Lokland

    “That is unfair. I would be equally fair to men and women by offering similar penalties to each. But as long as you have one person at home taking care of kids (I did it for 15 years) they will be sacrificing pay, career development, etc. And they need to be compensated. A percentage basis makes more sense than some flat dollar amount.

    I agree that current laws are misandrist. I don’t think the solution is to add misogynistic laws to the mix.”

    First, I get where tour coming from on the percentage compensation thing I can agree with that. However as someone who has a kid (nephew) and I did the SAHD thing for a few months AND ran two business’ AND went to school. No way in hell a stay at home anything deserves more than 50k a year, when I said 100 I was being generous. But again that would only apply to people who make upwards of 100k a year which is rather irrelavant.

    I’m gonna throw out a hypothetical situation.
    Daddy makes 200 million dollars over 15 years.
    Mommy stays and takes care of the kid.

    Mommy cheats and divorce ensues.

    Who should get compensated?

    My solution,
    Daddy obviously doesn’t need it but mommy is the one that broke the contract.
    Therefore in all reality mommy should be getting some type of compensation. However she is the one that broke the contract, should that not make it null?

    (Note: If the sexs were switched same system applies.)

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    510 OffTheCuff December 17, 2011 at 12:30 pm wrote:

    The “recent comment” links are broken for me. It takes me to the top of page 3, not the clicked comment on the last page.

    Yes.

    Page number calculation goes wrong. The same error happens when you post comment.

    Seems that on this comment paging plugin have bug on somewhere, I think.

    / Kari Hurtta

    ( I was on sauna. Got after sauna cider. )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Seems that on this comment paging plugin have bug on somewhere, I think.

      OK, just so everyone knows what is going on here. The code for all these various features – comment toolbar with buttons, numbered comments, preview button, edit button, comment pagination….it can’t all work together. The features are breaking each other. Ugh, I spent hours on this yesterday. Something is going to have to give, and we’re just going to have to live with it. My comment section is super important, but most blogs don’t have any of these features. I may have to hire a web designer to solve this problem.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        The website Feminine Beauty has a lot of information re this topic. The author has gathered a great deal of scientific evidence to trace the change in modern society from a feminine beauty ideal to a masculine one. I highly recommend it – fascinating reading.

        http://www.femininebeauty.info/feminine-vs-masculine

        He compares every aspect of the female form – skull size, arm length, mandible size, brow prominence, cheekbone prominence, waist to hip ratio, hip width, hand size. There has been a dramatic shift to the androgynous female in the last 50 years. It’s not a question, and the evidence is extremely interesting.

  • SayWhaat

    “I have a weakness for tall skinny guys, whereas a lot of my friends really like “teddy bear” types.”

    Welcome to the club. :D

  • Doug1

    Lokland–

    “She was his life partner, and he violated the contract.”

    Point being what? If she broke the contract he wouldn’t be paid anything.
    Seriously I would like this point if it worked in both directions but thats simply not the case.

    Also, if Daddy makes more money and we all want kiddy to have a more affluent lifestyle. Daddy should have custody. DUH!

    Great minds think alike buddy. Heh.

  • http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

    See? It’s simple!

    Not if you are an Alpha, none of this applies, lie, cheat, break promises and the law or society shouldn’t punish you in any way. How dare they! 100 inches penis are beyond good and evil /sarcasm off

  • Lokland

    @ Hollenhund

    “Now people are basically arguing that Gisele Bündchen is mannish and too skinny? The mind boggles.”

    I know eh. Its a self defense mechanism. “I’m not as pretty as her therefore I’ll make her sound worse.”
    Ask men what they like and the majority choose her. Most don’t go for curvy and women who are curvy get into an outrage.

    I’m short. I know woman prefer tall guys. I don’t go around shaming tall guys or bitching about it. I learned to work with what I had and everything turned out fine. Will I ever be the hottest guy in the room? Nope. Will I ever be the most alpha? Nope. And honestly I don’t really care.

    But tell a woman she can’t be the prettiest, and oh good lord run and hide because the wrath of every god that ever existed couldn’t compare. However tell me I’m too short to be hot and I’m expected to take it.

    Ahh the strange world we live in. If only I didn’t have a penis then I could have an edge in this world.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Its a self defense mechanism. “I’m not as pretty as her therefore I’ll make her sound worse.”

      Nice try, but I”ve got no dog in this fight. Just a general concern for the effect of the culture on women.

      Ask men what they like and the majority choose her. Most don’t go for curvy and women who are curvy get into an outrage.

      I think you’re wrong about that. You obviously have a different preference, but the research is very clear on what men go for. And the research says men want curves. A slight, boyish body signals infertility. There were persistent rumors that Bundchen was a hermaphrodite like Jamie Lee Curtis until she gave birth to a child.

      But tell a woman she can’t be the prettiest, and oh good lord run and hide because the wrath of every god that ever existed couldn’t compare.

      That’s BS. What I’m objecting to is telling women that only .01% of the population can be pretty, and you’ll have to starve yourself to have a shot at it.

      If only I didn’t have a penis then I could have an edge in this world.

      Oh please, you’re banging internet strangers with your fiance in the next room. You certainly have all the power in your personal life.

  • Stingray

    @ doug1,

    “No way does any wife deserve multi millions for just being a wife, even a good one.”

    If he cheats on her and he breaks the contract then you beat your sweet ass she does. Let me explain. I don’t know the study and I’m on my phone and not going to look for it. There have been studies that show that men with wives who stay at home (and are overall *good*) make much more than their counter parts. She is an equal partner and is making it possible for him to bring home much more money. If they started out with little money and then made the millions together with her taking care of everything at home and him at work then she deserves to maintain that life style.

  • Lokland

    @ Doug

    I know eh, we sound like echoes of each other.

  • Doug1

    Stingray–

    If they started out with little money and then made the millions together with her taking care of everything at home and him at work then she deserves to maintain that life style.

    She doesn’t deserve it if it’s major millions. That’s power money rather than just affluent lifestyle money. There’s no way her contribution was comparable if she were a SAHM. If we’re talking about a total estate of 1 million including the house, earned by him over a 15 year period, during all of which time he WANTED her to be a SAHM, then maybe.

  • Anna

    @ Lokland
    “Most don’t go for curvy”
    That depends what you mean by curvy. If you mean Sofia Vergara, I think you are wrong. If you mean curvy as in the way it used in the US today, as a nice word for fat, then yes I agree.

    Sure I can agree that Gisele is not necessarily worth the millions she earns, and IMO she should have had a different and more feminine face and a bit more hips to be “perfection”, but I don’t go around saying that there is something wrong with men who find her attractive. It is perfectly understandable to me.
    http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/10/victoria_12_gallery__232x400.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anna

      You misunderstand my meaning. Gisele is worth the money she earns because she sells underwear. That’s not in question. Nor did I say she “should have” a more feminine face. I’m simply observing that the beauty ideal has become very masculinized, to the point where men covet very manly women. Since we know that is the opposite of the male sexual instinct, it must be down to cultural influence.

      Of coursre there is nothing wrong with men who find her attractive. The problem (for all the other women) is when men begin to use Gisele as a yardstick for what beautiful is. Since there are many more naturally feminine looking women than mannish looking women, this means that overall the percentage of women men find attractive decreases.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    525 Höllenhund December 17, 2011 at 1:09 pm; Now the girl wanter hear that …

  • purplesneakers

    I know eh. Its a self defense mechanism. “I’m not as pretty as her therefore I’ll make her sound worse.”
    Ask men what they like and the majority choose her. Most don’t go for curvy and women who are curvy get into an outrage.

    I’m short. I know woman prefer tall guys. I don’t go around shaming tall guys or bitching about it. I learned to work with what I had and everything turned out fine. Will I ever be the hottest guy in the room? Nope. Will I ever be the most alpha? Nope. And honestly I don’t really care.

    But tell a woman she can’t be the prettiest, and oh good lord run and hide because the wrath of every god that ever existed couldn’t compare. However tell me I’m too short to be hot and I’m expected to take it.

    Ahh the strange world we live in. If only I didn’t have a penis then I could have an edge in this world.

    .

    Have you never considered that the reason women get defensive about not being the prettiest girl in the room is because they instinctively know that their looks are the most crucial thing that men judge them on, and are the main factor in attracting a mate? One of the fundamental principles of the so-called “manosphere.” Whereas looks are nowhere near as important for men in attracting mates.

    FWIW I don’t think Giselle is unattractive by any means at all, but I do think that she is not very feminine looking. She is nowhere close to having the evo bio ideal waist-to-hip ratio that men are apparently intrinsically wired to be attracted to (and in those photos you posted, it looks like she has hips only because of the poses she is in, and as you said, airbrushing). I also think her facial features, while striking in a way that’s totally appropriate for a fashion model, are rather masculine.

    I can’t believe the amount of cognitive dissonance when it comes to finding stick thin attractive. (Before I get hit with the “your jus’ jellus!!” criticism, let me say that I think Scarlett Johansson is a current Hollywood celebrity who I think probably has the best body).

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    My vote is that getting sent back to a prior page is the most annoying, with much smaller type in the comment box when entering it is second most. I wouldn’t care much about ditching the Preview feature nor bemoan the lack of a post sending edit feature. (Even though I commit a ton of typos and leave out words I thought in my head and so on, I can’t be bothered to take the time to edit comments. )

    The splitting the comments to different pages ever 150 comments is a good feature and compromise. It used to take forever to load your long comment threads. Of which there are many these days.

  • Doug1

    Stingray–

    If he cheats on her and he breaks the contract then you beat your sweet ass she does. Let me explain.

    I’d never marry under that contract. I’d have a prenup to the contrary as I outlined above. My much younger beautiful live together M would marry me in a heat beat under such a contract.

  • Emily

    >> That depends what you mean by curvy. If you mean Sofia Vergara, I think you are wrong. If you mean curvy as in the way it used in the US today, as a nice word for fat, then yes I agree.

    Urgh, the modern misuse of the word “curvy” has to stop. I’m not even curvy (by either definition lol) and it bugs me.

    Natural feminine curviness is beautiful. Obesity is not.

    I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but seriously it bugs.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I learned to work with what I had and everything turned out fine. Will I ever be the hottest guy in the room? Nope. Will I ever be the most alpha? Nope. And honestly I don’t really care.

    Precisely. And that is my exact reaction to Doug when he doesn’t understand why women wouldn’t get implants. I know I had AAs until I gained a little weight in the last few years and my body filled out a bit (and no I’m not chubby, I was just rather underweight before). Now I upgraded to As, woop-dee-doo. My BF is totally cool with it. So. I work with what I have.

  • I thought *I* was Bob

    what you want for your own child is probably a better gauge of what you truly believe.

    At some point I will have to let her go her own way. I don’t want to cripple her.

    That will not eliminate the anxiety.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “That’s BS. What I’m objecting to is telling women that only .01% of the population can be pretty, and you’ll have to starve yourself to have a shot at it.”

    Thats an exageration of what I said. I said that they can’t be as pretty as her. Theres a big difference between “not as” and “not”.

    Also, you said yourself men who like curves are a dying breed.

    Last, this wasn’t directed at you. It was a statement from personal observation. I have a friend who is curvy and is quite beautiful. She will never be as beautiful as a runway model. She asked, I told her this and she went after me for being short so pardon the venting.

    Now lets get back onto the more important matter of divorce law. Determining who has the hotter body between two celebrities isn’t gonna change much of anything.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Determining who has the hotter body between two celebrities isn’t gonna change much of anything.

      Fair enough, but we have zero chance of changing divorce law either.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    537 Susan Walsh December 17, 2011 at 1:28 pm wrote:

    The code for all these various features – comment toolbar with buttons, numbered comments, preview button, edit button, comment pagination….it can’t all work together.

    Yes. That page number is not only issue. Also preview button seems not know what HTML is actually accepted on post.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Urgh, the modern misuse of the word “curvy” has to stop. I’m not even curvy (by either definition lol) and it bugs me.

    Natural feminine curviness is beautiful. Obesity is not.

    I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but seriously it bugs.

    Yeah agreed. I remember Rosie O’Donnell when I was a kid (haven’t seen a pic of her in quite sometime)… she, erm, wasn’t curvy. Curvy is bootylicious. Chubby is chubby.

  • Doug1

    Anna–

    Have you done any modeling? You seem to know a lot about it, have friends who have, are plenty tall enough and seem to have pretty much the right body type and beautiful face for it.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    OK, I think we’re back to correct pagination. Lost the quicktags. I’ll at least add in a note explaining which HTML tags work.

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “Of coursre there is nothing wrong with men who find her attractive. The problem (for all the other women) is when men begin to use Gisele as a yardstick for what beautiful is. Since there are many more naturally feminine looking women than mannish looking women, this means that overall the percentage of women men find attractive decreases.”

    Your commiting an apex fallacy hear. Men will go out with women who are less attractive than them. It doesn’t matter if he regards you as cute or sexy, smoking hot he will still consider a LTR relationship. Whereas for women this is not the case, not hotter = no LTR.
    So yes, the standard of beauty may change but its not going to change who gets LTRs, which I’m assuming most want.
    Also, this biological imperative is rather pointless. Modern medicine really doesn’t require wide hips and nature really doesn’t require very wide hips either. There like an exageration of something necesarry and yes they are better but far more than what is required.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men will go out with women who are less attractive than them. It doesn’t matter if he regards you as cute or sexy, smoking hot he will still consider a LTR relationship.

      Ouch. Even if that’s true, do you really think that’s what women want to hear? That’s one hell of a big red pill.

      “I don’t find you smoking hot. Well, not even sexy. As matter of fact, you’re not very cute. Wanna date?”

  • https://en.gravatar.com/emails Megaman

    @SW

    The fact that any man would find Gisele sexy is mind boggling, based on fertility cues. She is perhaps the most androgynous model of the last 50 years.

    Uh, Grace Jones perhaps? When I first saw “A View to a Kill”, I couldn’t help but wince. It was like James Bond was having sex with a man.

    Much like art, literature, and music, there are two types of fashion: good and bad : )

    Catherine Deneuve in the 60s, practically flawless. Janice Dickinson, rather decrepit in general.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    There were persistent rumors that Bundchen was a hermaphrodite like Jamie Lee Curtis until she gave birth to a child.

    It sounds from a bunch of things you’ve recently said that you move in pretty snarky Cambridgish circles with respect to Boston area Patriots fever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It sounds from a bunch of things you’ve recently said that you move in pretty snarky Cambridgish circles with respect to Boston area Patriots fever.

      Not Cambridge, but Boston is a very, very small town. FWIW, it drives my husband and son crazy when I criticize Tom Brady. They just hate it when the Globe publishes yet another photo of him looking like a total goofball.

  • http://www.facebook.com/#!/eva.vandergeld Pip

    Marriage isn’t for me, but in the spirit of full disclosure, here is an excellent article highlight the negatives of the national trend of less marriage:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-marriage-gap-presents-a-real-cost/2011/12/16/gIQAz24DzO_story.html

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    Fair enough, but we have zero chance of changing divorce law either.

    Hey Mass just changed it’s alimony law didn’t it? To what, do you know. I mean a short summary.

  • http://badgerhut.wordpress.com Badger

    A while back I read the wikipedia page on the Ford agency and found that Ms Ford’s key insight was to seek women with features that would “photograph well” – long lines and angular features.

    Thus explained the fashion arc we’re on today.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anna,

    Have you done any modeling? You seem to know a lot about it, have friends who have, are plenty tall enough and seem to have pretty much the right body type and beautiful face for it.

    Don’t you dare let Doug hit on you. It’s creepy.

  • Emily

    I’m currently skimming through the Roosh thread that Rivelino posted. Of course the pictures conform to the current standard of beauty to a certain extent, but I’m actually impressed by the overall diversity. It’s pretty reassuring.

    It makes sense though. I’m a firm believer in the OkCupid Principle:
    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-mathematics-of-beauty/

  • Doug1

    SW–

    I think states should allow/enforce prenups to specify child custody and child support amounts, subject to family court review and setting aside if they found the provisions exceedingly unsuitable for the child’s welfare, as the case is at the time of presentation to the court.

    What I have in mind is lowering child support=also stealth alimony to the same percent as the state provides, but assessed on his after tax rather than pre tax income.

    As well I’d have the prenup enforceably provide for 50-50 joint physical custody with no child support paid to the other spouse in that case but rather spent as required directly on the child. This the court could throw out if he had shown himself to be a bad father, but it would otherwise be upheld. In cases where that isn’t feasible cause one of the ex spouses moved away, I’d have courts enforce prenups that said she gets custody until 9, he gets if from 9-18, or some variations on that where she gets it until 6 anyway. This would allow couples to bring back the father custody except in the “tender years” doctrine of 30s and earlier America in many places.

  • Doug1

    I mean I think those kinds of changes have a chance at being enacted by state legislators. Maybe first in Texas. They already assess 20% and 25% child support for one and two kids, on after rather than pre-tax income. They also very rarely grant more than very short term alimony.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    562 Susan Walsh December 17, 2011 at 2:03 pm wrote:

    “I don’t find you smoking hot. Well, not even sexy. As matter of fact, you’re not very cute. Wanna date?”

    Of course.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “I don’t find you smoking hot. Well, not even sexy. As matter of fact, you’re not very cute. Wanna date?”

      Of course.

      Haha! Vive la difference between the sexes.

      And yes, you were right re FML. There’s actually a funny blog by that name:

      http://www.fmylife.com/

  • Anna

    @ Doug
    No, I have not. Considered it for some time, but I had a slightly awkward stage during my mid-teens and was hardly photogenic. Now that I’m 21 I suppose I could do it part-time, but I am actually a bit “old”, most start at 15-16. And being a full-time student I wouldn’t want to make something like that a priority.

    @ Olive
    I am sure it’s not a problem, I saw him write earlier on that Kim Kardashian has the ideal body in his view, that means I am hardly interesting =)

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Doug 568

    The standard in ALL matters pertaining to children is “in the best interests of the child”; it will remain so, and I think it should remain so. “Exceedingly unsuitable”-I don’t have any charitable way to describe it. It is flat wrong, even as a model for discussion. The legislature and courts WILL NEVER, and in my opinion SHOULD NEVER allow the parties to prospectively stipulate the parameters of child custody in a prenup (antenuptial agreement). The current standard is the best formulation, allowing as it does for maximum flexibility to address the infinite fact patterns inherent in family life.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I am sure it’s not a problem, I saw him write earlier on that Kim Kardashian has the ideal body in his view, that means I am hardly interesting =)

    Haha glad to hear it. His interactions with you in the forum really creeped me out, so I wanted to make sure you take his suggestions with a grain of salt. In any case, sounds like modeling isn’t for you, which is all cool. Don’t know much about modeling (at 4’10” I’d never have a chance in hell lol), but it sounds like a cut-throat world.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    BTW re :community property division

    It is a 2 way street. If the woman is the one making the dough, she’ll be the one who has to cough up. I’m trying to remember who made a stink about this; it’s rare, so I may be thinking all the way back to Joan Lunden’s divorce.

  • Malia

    The code for all these various features – comment toolbar with buttons, numbered comments, preview button, edit button, comment pagination….it can’t all work together. The features are breaking each other.

    You might want to look into using BuddyPress and having an integrated suite of wordpress plug ins. It’s true that disparate plug ins will cause conflicts and maybe something like that can resolve the problem.

  • Anna

    @ Susan
    Forgive me for misunderstanding, with the comparison of model/no fertility and men being attracted to infertile women, it sounded as if there was something wrong with them.

    I agree with “masculinization” (is that a word?) of women. I think it was Germaine Greer who talked about this – how girls must have a gap between their thighs these days, resembling teenage boys. However the concept of being thin to be feminine is not so new. And you don’t have to go back to the 1920s. Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly were super-slender. If we saw them undressed, which we never did, I’m sure we’d find them even thinner. Same goes for many female idols back then.
    My own stepfather is quite old-fashioned and usually find today’s women lacking in style and class. He doesn’t pay much attention to fashion/TV etc. and finds the “old” icons, such as Hepburn, to be the real attractive women. When a couple we know got divorced, the man (a wealthy partner in a law firm) found himself a new wife 15 years younger, a slim brunette in super-shape. My mother felt so sorry for his wife, she was left with nothing, and my father added “well, when you see the weight she’s gained over the years…” and obviously understood this husband’s decision. I was a bit surprised, he is such an intellectual and non-shallow in every area of his life, but in THIS area he’s a bit tough. When I had been living abroad for six months and gained weight (from 125 pounds to 138, I am 5″9), he advised me to go jogging to lose it. I wonder how many men actually agrees with him – and how many of their fathers did too, before this media influence.

  • Malia

    Have you never considered that the reason women get defensive about not being the prettiest girl in the room is because they instinctively know that their looks are the most crucial thing that men judge them on, and are the main factor in attracting a mate?

    There are women here who sh!t on other women every other post, or maybe one out of three or four posts they write. There are women who do it habitually, but because they are speaking ill of things men generally agree with, the guys are perfectly fine with it.

    The only time it cause a funk is when the men disagree with what they are saying, or the person they are saying it about. Otherwise, it just goes on full force.

    have you not noticed how many comments are like “these other chicks are …, but I’m …” “these sluts in my class are … but I’m …” Even on the message board there’s a thread basically like “my sister is a pathetic slut who never does anything right”.

    My point is that the female intra-sexual competition is fierce and the need for validation through downward comparison often plays a big part in it. It goes largely ignored when people generally agree with what the person is saying though.

    Carry on…

  • purplesneakers

    [i]There are women here who sh!t on other women every other post, or maybe one out of three or four posts they write. There are women who do it habitually, but because they are speaking ill of things men generally agree with, the guys are perfectly fine with it.

    The only time it cause a funk is when the men disagree with what they are saying, or the person they are saying it about. Otherwise, it just goes on full force.

    have you not noticed how many comments are like “these other chicks are …, but I’m …” “these sluts in my class are … but I’m …” Even on the message board there’s a thread basically like “my sister is a pathetic slut who never does anything right”.

    My point is that the female intra-sexual competition is fierce and the need for validation through downward comparison often plays a big part in it. It goes largely ignored when people generally agree with what the person is saying though.

    Carry on…[/i]

    I’ve been a lurker until now, but that’s an interesting observation. :) I must admit that I am a little uneasy with how often even women throw around the terms ‘slut’ and ‘fatty’ here, as if those girls are not real people.

    I do know a lot of girls IRL who will say “girls are such bitches.” What I’ve learned is that when you run into a girl who says, “Girls always cause so much drama,” the reality is that SHE’S the one who causes all the drama, and you should run very very far away and not let her get the satisfaction of either condescending to you or using you as some kind of social tool.

  • Doug1

    tvmunsion–

    The current standard is the best formulation, allowing as it does for maximum flexibility to address the infinite fact patterns inherent in family life.

    The current standard as carried out in practice by our misandrous family courts in hugely unfair to men. Particularly when combined with our very high as a percentage of a strong earning man’s after tax income=also stealth alimony is. Research has show there are significantly lower rates of divorce in states that have true joint physical custody as the presumptive default, as opposed to the usual situation in most states where the ex wife always gets custody if she wants it (and almost all do) unless she can be proven to have been an abusive or neglectful mother.

  • Stingray

    I’d never marry under that contract.

    Understandable, as you don’t want a SAHW/M.

    That’s power money rather than just affluent lifestyle money.

    I don’t care what kind of money it is. Point is that he may not have ever made that kind of money without her taking care of everything at home. I am not saying that she should get half but a very good percentage.

    Now, if she cheats, then, well . . . that’s on her. I might argue that for 6 months she gets a pittance until she gets back on her feet.

  • Lavazza

    Rivelino: That model looks like my 14 YO daughter, if she is not a teenager, she is a freak.

  • Doug1

    tvmunson–

    It is a 2 way street. If the woman is the one making the dough, she’ll be the one who has to cough up. I’m trying to remember who made a stink about this; it’s rare, so I may be thinking all the way back to Joan Lunden’s divorce.

    It’s rare because of female hypergamy. Women want to marry up in terms of money as well as status. They and their husbands both tend to be uncomfortable after awhile if she makes a lot more and has more status, even if their starting beliefs were quite feminist on that.

    As well women instinctively know that making a bunch of dough doesn’t make her more sexually attractive to men, but only more attractive to a few men on a strictly gold digger sort of basis. So they have little incentive to put the peddle to the metal in choosing a money maximizing career or trying to rise up fast as they can. In fact women tend to prefer lower stress but high status jobs. Working for non profits for example.

  • Anna

    @ purplesneakers
    “What I’ve learned is that when you run into a girl who says, “Girls always cause so much drama,” the reality is that SHE’S the one who causes all the drama, and you should run very very far away and not let her get the satisfaction of either condescending to you or using you as some kind of social tool.”

    Beware the woman with NO female friends. There is something called the female dog whistle. I a woman claims that “all other women are bitching” or that “this is why she hangs out with guys more”, something’s up.

    On a general level, girls don’t annoy me more than guys, it’s pretty equal. But women whom are intelligent in certain areas can be absolute fools in others, whereas male idiots tend to be idiots upfront, and you can avoid them. Men are overall less manipulative so they won’t work their way into your life in the same way. I think women struggling with mutual jealousy and all that can create the illusion that there are more bickering between females than among males. There are plenty of hatred with alphas/betas/omegas and a whole lot of ego among guys here too. But perhaps not directed towards one another the same way.

  • Emily

    @ Malia

    These other chicks are into intra-sexual competition, but I’m not!!! ;)

  • Doug1

    Anne—

    I agree with “masculinization” (is that a word?) of women.

    If not it should be. It’s a perfectly good neologism. It may not have made it into dictionaries yet but it’s used a good bit around the net.

  • Doug1

    tvmunson–

    It is a 2 way street. If the woman is the one making the dough, she’ll be the one who has to cough up. I’m trying to remember who made a stink about this; it’s rare, so I may be thinking all the way back to Joan Lunden’s divorce.

    In their great interest in not making it a real 2 way street Britian’s high court threw out their previous rule of ignoring prenups, so that a rich foreign born woman with one didn’t have to give up half her money to her British husband.

  • Höllenhund

    ‘Curvy’ is someone like Aria Giovanni:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAp8t-zDPvg

    The reason she and women like her aren’t considered fat by the majority of men is because their bodies are proportionate, just like the bodies of slimmer women. Beauty is largely a function of proportionality.

  • Höllenhund

    “She looks like a drag queen. You’re just proving you drank the kool-aid.”

    OK, let’s just stop right there. “Drag queen”? This is complete, utter BS. She was 26 in these videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCj2K9VrwfU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueKvVP86Sn0

    Are you seriously telling me that she’s not above average in terms of attractiveness among 26-year-old women? Really? Is she what you picture in your mind when you hear the phrase ‘drag queen’? The mind truly boggles.

  • Höllenhund

    “Ouch. Even if that’s true, do you really think that’s what women want to hear? That’s one hell of a big red pill.

    “I don’t find you smoking hot. Well, not even sexy. As matter of fact, you’re not very cute. Wanna date?””

    Well, what the hell did you expect? Men to be hypergamous? If men were picky, the human race would have gone extinct a long time ago because most women wouldn’t get impregnated.

  • Höllenhund

    “The fact that any man would find Gisele sexy is mind boggling, based on fertility cues. She is perhaps the most androgynous model of the last 50 years.”

    Hmm..Wikipedia informs us that “Vogue magazine dubbed her “The Return of the Sexy Model” and she was credited with ending the “heroin chic” era of modeling.” So what’s the deal here? Is she a manifestation of unrealistic beauty standards or not?

  • deti

    Every thread of late goes off the rails. Oh well…

    Gisele Bundchen is certainly attractive, but more masculine looking than women of even 30 years ago. Christina Hendricks? Awesome body. What used to be considered healthy, feminine and womanly now seems to be considered overweight. Kim Kardashian has that curvy look but clearly she is not overweight. Same with J-Lo.

    Most breast implants look great in clothes, but kinda silly naked.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Malia,

    My point is that the female intra-sexual competition is fierce and the need for validation through downward comparison often plays a big part in it. It goes largely ignored when people generally agree with what the person is saying though.

    I’m probably one of those girls you referred to (I definitely was when I came to HUS) and FWIW I agree with you. It’s weird because I hate female intra-sexual competition, but I often can’t resist playing the game. In my experience, it’s been play the game or get dumped on until you feel like crap. So I go back and forth between playing the game and feeling like crap. And now I will go read Anacaona’s post on the female herd lol.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Doug1 #588

    I was referring to American community property law as it exists is approximately nine states, including Idaho. I do not know British law. but allow me to explicate for the edification of the order.

    Under community property law, when a couple marries, they create a “community”, and to the extent there are earnings or accretions of wealth these become part of the community (as do debts accrued by the community). If I already have an estate, i e property, that is NOT transformed into community property simply by the act of marriage. It can become so commingled with community assets as to lose its separate nature, but as long as it is identifiable as belonging to me prior to the marriage it is my separate property. I do not know the facts or the law in the British example, but if she had no earnings from her separate property and it was not commingled I cannot appreciate a different result in a community property state.

    Let’s say you are married and you inherit from Uncle Arthur. You set up a separate account an dump the money in. It’s yours; your wife has no claim to it. She might claim against the interest earned as this is “earned” during the community, but the inherited amount is your separate property. You did not earn it during the community existence. Same applies with any property-land, jewelry etc.

    Again reading your example it looks like I misunderstood. You’re saying the court upheld the prenup having on other occasions upheld them. Dunno’. I am not a domestic relations lawyer. In Kobe’s case a chunk of his money was earned in the pendency of the community, and any other was probably commingled.

    My point is simply by getting married 1/2 of what you already have does not become your spouse’s. If you have an argument that the earnings during the marriage should belong to the earner, or at least entitle him to a disproportionate share, you’d have to take that up with the legislature. Good luck.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Doug1

    I am no expert, having done little family law, but in Idaho joint custody is the presumptive situation. However, there are a number of impacts. Breast feeding infants, and infants generally, and children of “tender years” impact the actual custodial situation. However, often joint custody is contained in the order so that both parents can get medical attention for the child etc. The fights over actual custody are nasty, vehement and endless. But the theoretical approach is joint is the premise, and when it is achieved neither party pays child support.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Anna #578

    Ex-wife “left with nothing”-this guy must have been one hell of a lawyer.

  • Höllenhund

    What about Miranda Kerr? She has a pretty, girly face but her body type is basically identical to Bündchen’s (hip-waist ratio not ideal but very close to it, slim body with zero body fat). If Ms. Walsh is to be believed, men should find her mannish and a bad bet in terms of fertility. Even though she’s apparently already a mother.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5itPJjqSBw

  • Anna

    @ tvmunson
    We don’t have the system of alimony in Norway. The rules are different regarding divorce as well. His wife was a lawyer too but had a position in the public system which was not highly paid, so yeah in the end she had to move out of the house and find an apartment on own funding. I’m not debating whether it’s fair, was just a detail.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I do know a lot of girls IRL who will say “girls are such bitches.” What I’ve learned is that when you run into a girl who says, “Girls always cause so much drama,” the reality is that SHE’S the one who causes all the drama, and you should run very very far away and not let her get the satisfaction of either condescending to you or using you as some kind of social tool.

    So here’s the thing, I was that girl when I came to HUS. A year ago I basically walked out on all my friends because I took issue with the way my roommate was acting, and they all picked her side and shamed me for taking issue with her. So yeah, I caused the drama for taking issue with my roommate, when I could’ve just let it be and not say anything.

    In my experience, it’s not the people who “cause the drama” who are to be avoided, it’s the people who silently act like they’re the nicest people in the world and then stab you in the back when you aren’t looking. In other words, it’s the people who hate conflict and avoid it like the plague, and don’t have the balls to say shit to your face, but they’ll gladly bad-mouth you when you’re not around. I had 2 friends like that, twin sisters. Everybody loved them, respected them, built them up, and they were super nice to your face. But I learned not to trust them when I realized how willing they were to throw me under the bus, then act like I was some sort of parasite. Don’t need people like that in my life, thanks.

    And BTW, I STILL think those girls are bitches for the way they acted, and I’m trying to be very choosy about my friends these days. Things are slowly getting better, but I will be honest, I do think most girls are bitches and have actively been avoiding large groups of girls. I’ve been treated horribly by girls since I was 4.

  • Anna

    @ Höllenhund
    I don’t Miranda is that similar to Gisele. They are both very slim, but I believe Gisele is more naturally straight up and down whereas Miranda keeps her weight down by exercising and eating very healthy (not saying that Gisele doesn’t, I just think she has a body which is very boyish by nature). Miranda is a health freak and eats organic only. I also think she has slightly more of a small waist and defined butt, she just keeps her weight very low. I think Miranda have the tendencies to develop more of a pear shape if she gained weight. She also looks a bit “softer” than Gisele, whose body seems to be very hard.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    By the way, I have earned the respect of girls in the past by bad-mouthing and making fun of other girls. It’s just the way girl-world works, for some reason. People loved me when I was a gossip.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Emily,

    These other chicks are into intra-sexual competition, but I’m not!!!

    I’m curious, have you ever talked about a girl behind her back?

    I find it very hard to believe that a girl isn’t “into intra-sexual competition.” In my experience, it hasn’t been an easy choice. Like I said to Malia, I can play the game and people will love me, or I can sit out and have no friends. I waffle back and forth, because I actually hate who I am when I become a gossip, but I also hate who I am when I don’t have friends. The solution, I think, will be being choosy about who my friends are.

  • Malia

    However, often joint custody is contained in the order so that both parents can get medical attention for the child etc.

    Most people don’t understand the difference between joint custody and custodial time. Parents can have joint custody but not equal custodial time. In the case of Kobe, he will likely have joint custody but would not really be able to make a solid argument for 50/50 custodial time because of his travel schedule. He would have to keep the children in the care of a paid caregiver and courts usually will not favor a paid caregiver over a present parent.

    To bring another celebrity case to light, Russell Simmons shares custody of his children with his ex-wife, however the children live with her. He provides generous child support, despite the fact that Kimora has a substantial income of her own.

    http://allhiphop.com/2008/06/28/russell-simmons-defends-child-support-ruling/

    I bring this forth as an example of a decent man, an alpha both socially and economically (an important distinction I must say), who “bangs hot chicks” that most of the alphas here would drool over. Is probably a perfect example of the older guy hot young girlfriend (as he is fond of dating models), but still is an all around good guy without the bitterness, antagonism and axe to grind against women.

  • Emily

    >> I’m curious, have you ever talked about a girl behind her back?
    I find it very hard to believe that a girl isn’t “into intra-sexual competition.”

    Haha sorry, I meant for that comment to be tongue-in-cheek. I thought the winky smiley made that clear, but Internet sarcasm has a way of failing.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Crap, yeah I can’t even pick up on sarcasm in real life lol. Ignore what I said! :-)

  • Doug1

    Vanessa’s getting the mansion Kobe bought in 2001 and he’s been kicked out.

    http://www.tmz.com/2011/12/17/kobe-bryant-vanessa-mansion-home-newport-beach/#.Tu0q4Fb2K8A

    American divorce is just outrageously unfair to men.

  • Emily

    I do generally get along with my female friends though. I tend to have a bunch of random individual friends and groups that I sort of loosely hang out with rather than an actual “clique” though. I have a few close friends, but overall I’m kind of a “floater”. I think that maybe prevents the more brutal aspects of female social interaction. Like if I complain about one close friend to another one of my close friends, they don’t know each other anyways so it’s not really doing any harm. My very closest friends also tend to be other geeks, which I think also helps to prevent the stereotypical High School Cheerleader behaviour. I have guy friends as well, but my closest friends are definitely female.

  • Doug1

    Anne–

    I just did a google images of Miranda Kerr. She’s got a very very pretty delightfully pretty face. Fairly nice butt too.

  • Anna

    @ Doug
    I know, she is my favourite model, I think she is one of the most beautiful and feminine women around today. She’s got a great sense of style too. No wonder she got Orlando Bloom.
    Personally, I find her body perfect. To some she may be too skinny, but I think her face and long legs make up for it anyway.

  • Jhane Sez

    “16 is plenty old enough for sex to not be statutory rape, and almost all of the world outside of the feminist taken over US thinks so.”

    Doug1…

    To you and all those who co-signed this statement, I want to see a show of hands (figuratively of course)…

    How many of you would consider your 16 year old daughter having sex okay…

    Would you consider her dating someone your current age appropreate.

    What would be the oldest man you would permit your 16 year old daughter to date.

    I look forward to reading the responses… because I really want to know ~JS

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    The age of consent is 16 in the largest number of states. It’s only 18 in 11 states but one of them is California, the seat of our TV and movie industries. Connecticut and New Jersey, two liberal states, set it at 16, NY sets it at 17, as does similarly large population Texas.

    I would prefer my 16 yo daughter not have sex with anyone yet, for non slutification purposes mostly, but I wouldn’t more mind her having sex with a 22 yo than a 16 or 17 yo. In all cases it would depend on what the guy was like.

  • DelFresca

    “Women want high status jobs, and they want men who have even higher (or equal) status jobs.”

    Not arguing with that point, but most people have low status jobs. I mean, there are more waitresses than there are say, transplant surgeons or bank VPs’. So I wonder how much does it really matter that women want high status jobs? The vast majority of them won’t have them.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    Would you consider her dating someone your current age appropreate.

    No, way too big a gap. But she wouldn’t to anyway, nor would I. I’d also no take a girl’s virginity if I didn’t have very serious intentions with her and at our age gap that would be even more ridiculous. 21 is way too young for me as well.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Malia # 604

    I was drawing the distinction between joint custody and (my term) actual custody. I did just enough domestic law to know I never want to do anymore. Far too many people willing to destroy their children to gain a pyhrric victory not just hollow, but filled with pain.

    As for divorce law being unfair to men, well I guess that’s why there’s horse races. A couple enjoys a standard of living; they divorce. To say the spouse is entitled to only what each earned-I guess makes sense in some universes. I am reminded of a quote by a Canadian lawyer-no woman ever wins a divorce. To a man, it’s simply a matter of mathematics. To her, it is and always remains a matter of the heart. Not trying to persuade or convince anyone; this matter is beyond settled as far as the law is concerned, our chatter is idle.

  • Doug1

    The age of consent in Europe runs from 14 to 16 (well it’s 13 in Spain). It’s about equally distributed between the three ages in that range. It’s 14 in Italy, German, and Austria, some other countries. 16 in Britain. It’s 15 in France and a bunch of other countries.

  • Jhane Sez

    “Because Mrs. Kobe Bryant didn’t remotely do anything to deserve 100 million. Kobe did, she didn’t. She’ll be doing nothing for him post divorce. Why the hell should he have to transfer half his loot to her so she can live without him in the style to which she was accustomed when living with him, and then more than some.”

    Kobe didn’t amass 200 million by just playing basketball… most of his money comes from product endorsements based upon his “nice guy” image… which has its foundation in the fact that he broke the mold of the typical young NBA player.

    His ability to command those fees correlates directly to the fact that he was married with children and a devoted husband and father… that is the image he sold to make money.

    So his wife becomes an integral part of his PR team…

    She is his brand ambassador when he isn’t available especially when it comes to things like charity events and other non profit work… which helps with tax deductions.

    She is ‘required’ to show up for games with or without the kids to show that he has family support in the stands… this was especially key when he was facing rape charges to help maintain his Mr. Nice Guy Family Man image…. which brings in the money

    She manages and maintains many of his personal assets including his home and personal social calendar.

    She is also ‘required’ to give interviews and manage the press… no you don’t see her on ESPN but you do see her on the local new market networks, once again as an extension of his brand.

    Being married to a man of means is a daunting job in itself and then you add celebrity to it… they should really offer a class.

    Now imagine doing all of this for someone who constantly cheats on you and does so publicly while you are being asked to help project a different view to the world at large… so that he can continue to make money.

    Dude I am far from a Vanessa fan… but real talk she earned that money ~JS

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez:

    Kobe didn’t amass 200 million by just playing basketball… most of his money comes from product endorsements based upon his “nice guy” image… which has its foundation in the fact that he broke the mold of the typical young NBA player.

    His ability to command those fees correlates directly to the fact that he was married with children and a devoted husband and father… that is the image he sold to make money.
    So his wife becomes an integral part of his PR team…

    Oh what rubbish. Just about any wife would do. His image was crafted by him and only matter because he was a massive NBA star. That was the sina qua non. As well I think actually most of his money was earned as NBA fees. He’s supposed to be worth about 150 million by the way, not 200 or higher amounts thrown around.

    Besides she was being massively compensated by enjoying his lifestyle with him in the mansion she’s now kicked him out of, and so on, while she was still with him. That’s plenty. She’s not going to be doing anything for him going forward, yet she’s filed divorce papers asking for half his dough, massive child support=also stealth alimony, plus alimony for life on top of that!!!!! The incredibly greedy bitch.

    Dude I am far from a Vanessa fan… but real talk she earned that money ~JS

    Horseshiite she did. She didn’t remotely earn a small fraction of it. I find your views on this disgusting frankly and increadably Team Woman American feminist greedy.

    No wonder men are warning each other off marriage today with these American divorce laws, the worst in the world for men.

    Charlie Sheen was much smarter, and had a prenup both with Denise Richards and with his current wife who’s on and off about divorcing him:

    http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/15/charlie-sheen-brooke-mueller-divorce-documents-denise-richards-custody-settlement-support/#.Tu09G1b2K8A

  • Doug1

    No wonder American marriage is in steep decline, with these misandrous divorce laws and women like Jhane Sex more than willing to take absolutely to the limit full advantage of them.

    Kobe’s getting divorce theft big time. And divorce theft is just how increasing many American men see it too. The word is getting out including to young men.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    That’s so much feminist playbook god damn rubbish. She was amply compensated by him when living with him. Most any wife could do those roles, which I’m sure your greatly exaggerating. It was no super achievement on her part, unlike what he did and does.

    Being married to a man of means is a daunting job in itself and then you add celebrity to it… they should really offer a class.

    Now imagine doing all of this for someone who constantly cheats on you and does so publicly while you are being asked to help project a different view to the world at large… so that he can continue to make money.

    This is truly ridiculous. We don’t know that he constantly cheats. We know he did once, and he may well have done so that she found out about recently, breaking a “never again” promise to her perhaps.

    Cheating revenge on this massive a scale should be taken out of the hands of men period.

    He was an idiot for not getting a prenup of the kind I recommend though.

    She still most likely would have been eager to marry him, though she’s likely have done all she could to emotionally talk him out of requiring it, the golddigger.

  • Sassy6519

    My whole take on this marriage/divorce/alimony discussion is as follows:

    If you feel so inclined, male or female, to protect your assets in the case of a future potential divorce, get a prenup. It’s that simple. Marry someone who is okay with signing a prenup, and you are good to go.

    These celebrity men who failed to have their wives sign prenups, then caused their divorces by infidelity, shouldn’t be pitied. They had every opportunity to draft up and get a prenup signed, but they didn’t for whatever reason.

    Madonna failed to make Guy Ritchie sign a prenup, and he walked away with 100 million dollars, an estate property, and a pub. A freaking pub! I found that awesome and hilarious at the same time.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Miranda Kerr 1000x better than Gisele… not even close

  • Doug1

    sassy–

    These celebrity men who failed to have their wives sign prenups, then caused their divorces by infidelity, shouldn’t be pitied. They had every opportunity to draft up and get a prenup signed, but they didn’t for whatever reason.

    Yes they should be. The default without a prenup shouldn’t be so horrifically unfair to very high earning men. It’s simply taking advantage of men.

    There’s a tremendous amount of propaganda against prenups in the media including esp. the entertainment media by women. Though that’s gotten less bad. It was esp. bad at the end of the 90’s when Kobe got married.

    As well he probably wasn’t immersed in knowledge about how unfair divorce is to men esp. in California nor in knowing lots about prenups. I’m constantly educating men about them on the net and most have a very dim idea of whether they work, and what they can prevent, and so on. Kobe had just started his Laker career when he met her.

    This kind of stupid meme is what I’m talking about.

    According to Vanessa’s cousin Laila Laine, there was no prenuptial agreement. Vanessa said Bryant “loved her too much for one”.[205]

    They married on April 18, 2001, at St. Edward Roman Catholic Church in Dana Point, California.[206]

    Note that she waited just a few months after passing the 10 year mark to fine for divorce the conniving greedy bitch. California gives automatic lifetime alimony (!!!!) to wives in ten years and longer marriages.

  • Doug1

    Sassy—

    These celebrity men who failed to have their wives sign prenups, then caused their divorces by infidelity, shouldn’t be pitied. They had every opportunity to draft up and get a prenup signed, but they didn’t for whatever reason.

    The vast majority of Hollywood actresses who make considerably more than their fiancés make them sign prenups. There isn’t remotely the social pressure on wealth women to not demand prenups as there is for men. Madonna is a very surprising to me rare exception.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Anna #599

    A division of the community estate is not alimony under our laws. In fact, in Idaho we do not have alimony as such. We have spousal maintenance. This can be affected by, but is not strictly part of, the division of property. If the couple had accumulated assets during the marriage, then here (in the community property states) she’d get 1/2. Are you saying in Norway she gets nothing, or perhaps the had nothing (spendthrift situation)? You said she was left with nothing and implied it was because she had a means to support herself. What about the wealth they had created together? Either they had nothing, or Norway has some seriously tough laws respecting the weatlth accumulated in marriage.

  • Doug1

    Tvmunson—

    To a man, it’s simply a matter of mathematics. To her, it is and always remains a matter of the heart. Not trying to persuade or convince anyone; this matter is beyond settled as far as the law is concerned, our chatter is idle.

    Men are shattered and blind sided by divorce far more than women are. Usually the woman you files for divorce has slowly been making up her mind to do it for some time with much consultation with her girl friends. Maybe because she cheated and thus dissolved her feels of bondedness when married women have good emotional sex with another man, but not when men do.

    She has in mind the much rarer kind of divorce where the husband divorces his wife for a younger, hotter model.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men are shattered and blind sided by divorce far more than women are. Usually the woman you files for divorce has slowly been making up her mind to do it for some time with much consultation with her girl friends. Maybe because she cheated and thus dissolved her feels of bondedness when married women have good emotional sex with another man, but not when men do.

      Provide stats for this or shut up. Men cheat more than women do. How do you account for that in divorces initiated by women? He breaks the contract, she files. Sounds fair to me. Yes, there are frivolous divorces, but I’d like to know what percentage of female-initiated divorces they are. I think this theme is exaggerated and overblown in the manosphere echo chamber.

  • Doug1

    tvmunsion–

    In fact, in Idaho we do not have alimony as such. We have spousal maintenance.

    They changed the name of alimony in most states as a euphemism, because alimony is so unpopular with men. Same difference.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Doug1

    I understand all that. Regardless, a few things still stand.

    1. He didn’t make her sign a prenup, even though he should have. Nobody forced him to not draft up a prenup. He went into that marriage of his own volition. He chose not to get a prenup. The consequences are on him.

    2. He shouldn’t have cheated. Whether men like it or not, women see their husband’s infidelity as grounds for divorce. If he hadn’t cheated, perhaps they would remain married.

    3. He could have done the research about prenups by himself. We can’t blame his lack of knowledge for his demise. It’s the same way women shouldn’t and cannot be allowed to claim that they didn’t know the truth about their fertility odds upon aging. The information has always been out there. The only people to blame for not seeking out that information are themselves.

    4. Despite the social pressure for men to not make their future wives sign prenups, they should still make them sign prenups. Social pressure can only affect a person to an extent of which that person allows. Feminazis could bust in my house right now, screaming and chanting that I should be promiscuous like them. That doesn’t mean I would become promiscuous because of their pressure. At some point, people have got to start using their brains instead of mindlessly following herds. Kobe could have been an individual, said f*ck it, and made her sign a prenup. That little action would have saved him all this trouble.

  • Anna

    @ tvmunson
    She get out what she directly brought in to the marriage. I am guessing he has bought the house. I don’t know how they spent their incomes, but most likely he has paid for most, as is income was about 100x hers. Perhaps she has spent her income on food, stuff for the children etc., items which are not investment and do not show for anything in retrospective. Bottom line you do not gain from marrying someone wealthy unless you have a specific contract which entitles you to half of everything, but honestly I don’t know anyone back home who has that.
    I have however heard of some being generous (no contract involved), a friend of my mum got divorced (he left her) and as their financial situations were very different, he gave her the house.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m very surprised by the description of divorce in Norway. Scandinavia is always held up as an example of progressive, feminist, even socialist policy.

  • Doug1

    Tvmunson–

    Division of property accumulated during the marriage only came into American law during the 70’s. Well in 1969 feminists got it passed in California. Before that she got to keep any property she brought into the marriage but wouldn’t get his, although she might get the equity in the house if she hadn’t been caught cheating but he had, particularly if there were young kids. She wouldn’t if she just wanted out of the marriage and he didn’t agree.

    So this new law is a new oppression of men, particularly very high earning ones. This law is an ass.

  • I thought *I* was Bob

    There’s no guarantee Kobe Bryant can read. He’s a basketball player, not an academic.

  • Doug1

    In others words it used to be like Norway’s system before the 70’s, although wives who hadn’t worked from kids onward did get alimony until and unless they remarried.

    Ann are you sure that there’s no equal property division of what’s accumated during the marriage in Norway these days. I mean back in your grandfather’s day we were similar here.

  • Jhane Sez

    “Oh what rubbish. Just about any wife would do. His image was crafted by him and only matter because he was a massive NBA star. That was the sina qua non. As well I think actually most of his money was earned as NBA fees. He’s supposed to be worth about 150 million by the way, not 200 or higher amounts thrown around.”

    No… the average NBA player makes aprox 5 million per year and doesn’t get the opportunity for big money endorsements.

    The majority of Kobe’s money comes from endorsement deals I think his NBA contract is for 25M… Addias alone was a 6 year contract at 48M, not to mention Coke/Sprite, McDonald’s, Nutella, Vitamin Water, Nike and Nintendo… just to name a few.

    Kobe was slated to be the heir apparent to Micheal Jordon… a superior athlete with commercial appeal, the good looking devoted family man.

    During that time the NBA was going through a huge image problem and he was the polar opposite of the bad boy thugs in the headlines at that time.

    His image was manufactured and polished by his parents and professional media handlers… he was drafted right out of high school so he didn’t have time to make any real decisions about how he was going to present himself.

    Kobe engaged in under age drinking, hanging with rappers, getting into fights, hanging at strip clubs, sleeping with groupies, living the playboy lifestyle would have resulted in him making FAR less money… because the majority of the brands he endorses are FAMILY friendly brands.

    Now Kobe the young guy in love, getting engaged and married to his young sweetheart, champion for family values regularly photographed attending church… an image like that, in the NBA is a license to print money.

    I agree that almost any woman married to Kobe would be able to fill the role… but Vanessa was his choice.

    Now because he was young he most likely didn’t understand the position he was asking her to play, nor do I think he understood the responsibility than was associated with being the wife and mother of his children… with hindsight I am sure he would have chosen differently.

    But he didn’t and now she wants out and he has to pay… it is what it is ~JS

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    I think it’s impossible for American (and since 2000) British women to justify these enormous payouts just for being spouses, or that and helping their husbands in various not so terrifically skilled ways that lots of women could do — all while not having to work for outside pay but instead be massively compensated by living such as Kobe Bryants lifestyle.

    I think it was deeply wrong of Guy Ritchy to get $100 million from Madonna too.

    It’s just that it occurs like 99% of the time with the wife getting big time divorce theft if she married a high earner, not to mention mega earner.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Susan

    You read Tom Wolfe. In both “Bonfire” and “Man in Full” he describes divorced women of a certain age; in “Bonfire” they are replaced by “lemon tarts”. whilst first wives become “xrays” in their attempt to stay attractive through dieting. In “Man”, the exes are immediately forgotten, but in Ms. Croker’s case he discusses the “liberation” of divorce as part of the new lexicon (Wolfe is a lot more candid of feminism than race, which he chickens out of IMO). As you reside in the Boston area and have doubtless seen this play out, what can you describe? Boise is too small and provincial, but we’ve had some women divorce for reasons of personal liberation. As the women I’m thinking of were near 50, I think (we don’t see them anymore; another phenom (?), once divorced they disappear) they were surprised to find that “dating” was not the experience they were expecting. Then we have the ones who’s husbands went “lemon tart”-they also disappear but then we’re not very social anymore (you guessed from my blogs) so can’t gauge. Our governor got a Catholic divorce ( 3 children, near adult) so he could marry his wife (27 or so years his jr.) in a Catholic Church, so we aren’t entirely immune.

    So how’s it work out? Does first wife more or less get to face plant herself figuratively like the one at the start of the movie of the same name?

    BTW as a long time married, you must feel like Susan and I do, like the last soldiers in Lt. Col. Custer’s command, watching other couples fall apart. Or have you been spared that lovely facet of 21st century life?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Munson

      Wolfe is a lot more candid of feminism than race, which he chickens out of IMO

      Really, you think so? I thought both of his descriptions of the victim in Bonfire as an “honor student” and of Freaknik in Atlanta were pretty frank.

      As you reside in the Boston area and have doubtless seen this play out, what can you describe?

      To be honest, I have known only one couple to divorce at the wife’s behest. It was a family with 6 children, and she became pregnant with a 7th by another man, moved to Portland, OR and left her husband with the six. It later came out that three of those six were not his. She cuckolded him four times.

      I have known three couples to divorce when the husbands revealed, in their 40s, that they were gay and felt the need to live an authentic life. I know a couple that divorced after the wife found the husband fucking his admin. asst. on top of the coats on their bed during the annual holiday party. Another couple, very wealthy, divorced when she confessed that she was having an affair with her tennis pro (how cliched) and he responded that he was gay and had been having sex with randoms for years.

      I know one couple that got divorced when the Orthodox husband couldn’t live with his wife’s budding interest in Buddhism. I know one couple who got divorced when the husband finally realized that he was married to the world’s worst woman. She is one of the only people I have ever truly loathed, and I am glad he got out.

      I also know two couples in the neighborhood who divorced after having affairs with each other’s spouses. Each couple remarried and remained in one house or the other.

      All of these stories are about acquaintances and neighbors, though. I have not experienced that difficult scenario when good friends divorce and allegiances are tested. So I would have to say that mostly I’ve been spared. These stories I’ve shared were no more than neighborhood gossip.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Doug1

    Why is it deeply wrong for Guy Ritchie to get 100 million from Madonna? She didn’t have him sign a prenup, then cheated on him with Derek Jeter. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If women can get court settlements after divorce, guys should have every right to the same settlements.

  • Anna

    @ Doug
    Naturally if a couple bought a house together, paying 50/50, they would entitled to 50% each when they divorce, the price increase is split between them as well. But if one of the parties bought the house entirely, the other party would naturally not get any of the price increase either. They did not take part in the investment. That’s just the natural way in my mind, is this different in the US?

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    But he didn’t and now she wants out and he has to pay… it is what it is ~JS

    Yes but it shouldn’t be and wasn’t what the divorce law was a mere 30-40 years ago depending on your state, before feminists began the depredations with divorce laws.

    They originally said make marriage an equal partnership including economically, and we’ll phase out alimony as women are able to work more and more. Then they renigged on the phasing out alimony part and instead began pushing to very much bring it back bigger and better for women than ever in the 90’s.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Doug1

    Where did you go to law school? Community property law did not come into existence in the 70s; it was adopted from Mexican law, which is turn was inherited from Mexico. There has never been any other system of allocation in the nine states that inherited community property law (most of the remaining systems are called common law).

  • Doug1

    Sassy–

    What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    I half agree with this. That is if women married to rich men get that kind of payout on the regular than men in the symmetrical situation shouldn’t feel guilty about getting it either.

    As well Madonna is Madonna and amazing for her age (though I’m sure she wears tons of stage makeup when in public), and celebrity status in a wife of the type she has (sex goddess) does matter more to men that e.g. Roissy would admit, but she is 10 years older than also moderately famous Guy Ritchie, film director, and men esp. those with options VERY rarely marry significantly older women. He might not have agreed with a prenup. She might have asked and he might have said no.

  • Doug1

    Anne–

    That’s just the natural way in my mind, is this different in the US?

    Very different.

    If the man bought the house entirely with his own money during the marriage which is the usual case, that is put down the down payment, signed the mortgage in his name alone, had title to it in his name alone, and paid all the mortgage payments, she still get’s half of the equity (increase in value) along with half of all other stuff he earned and invest alone (including half of his company pension and other retirement accounts, non tax favored investments, and investment property, any increase in the value of small business he may own, and so on.

    She doesn’t get half of a house he bought before marrying her, or in most states half of what he brought into the marriage, so long as he can prove that and he hasn’t co-mingled property (e.g. stock investment accounts) with within marital investments so that can’t be readily proven.

    As I said this only became true sometime in the 70’s depending on the state in a big feminist push under the slogan of “marriage as an equal partnership”.

  • Doug1

    Anne–

    America has the most unfair to men divorce laws in the world as far as I’m aware, and I’ve done a lot of looking into this. It rather surprises me that Norway is as fair to men on this as it is.

  • Doug1

    Anne–

    Oh and I meant to say that Miranda is not only beautiful/gorgeous, but is so in a very feminine, engaging, delightful looking way. I mean she just makes me smile. As well many of her pics have this coy feminine quality to them, but also a fun vibe. Delightful!

  • Doug1

    Anne–

    She also looks a bit “softer” than Gisele, whose body seems to be very hard.

    I’d say a whole lot softer.

  • Doug1

    Anne–

    But if one of the parties bought the house entirely, the other party would naturally not get any of the price increase either. They did not take part in the investment. That’s just the natural way in my mind, is this different in the US?

    That’s the natural way in my mind too, but American feminists are greedy little bitches, that don’t want true gender equality of opportunity but rather female advantages at every turn. Tis true.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Anna #628

    All I can say is in a community property state, whatever is accumulated during the marriage belongs to each 1/2, undifferentiated. I can parse this more, but that’s the basics. You don’t gain anything necessarily by marrying a wealthy person under community law either; his separate property remains his, and even his income stream allocation will be affected by length of marriage, kids, whether wife worked.

    Doug
    Men are blindsided “far more often” than women-dude, we’ve had VERY different experiences personally and, in my case, professionally. I know of 2 instances where a guy after 20 + years of marriage walked in and pulled the M.Streep scene out of “Kramer”, only not to find himself, but to flat walk out. In one case it was all the wife could do to get him to stay a day or 2 so they could break it to their 10 year old daughter. I do not liek apocryphal arguments, so let’s just disagree and admit our life experiences are radically different. And and show of hands hookers as to how many have had Doug’s experience as opposed to mine.

    I do not know where you get this idea it was different 30-40 years ago; I was practicing law 30 years ago, in law school 3 years before that, and aware of the community property laws in the Western states (where it is primarily used) before then and can assure you it WAS NOT different as can any other Western attorney with similar experience. I will string cite 400 cases you can look up if you care too.

    Anna 636
    Yes it is different in community states (minority-where are you common law lawyers-I need help). As I explained, the increase in value is considered earned. Same with a stock, jewelry etc. A “basis” must be determined so the increase can be tracked. If there is a decrease, that would offset any other assets in the community. The way we do it here is we add up everything, assets-debts=community estate. Divide by 2. the parties are free to allocarte, but if they can’t agree, a judge does. Pensions, 410 (k) etc. also go this way and there is a specific tax provision for it. I’m sure Doug would want the spouse with the military pension to keep it all, but it is divided too.

    BTW meant to say that the Mexican law was inherited from Spain.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    allocate-we need edit feature!

  • Doug1

    tvmunson–

    Where did you go to law school?

    A top five law school. Then to one of NYC’s leading BigLaw firms. Left the law after several years for greener pastures in a couple of ways. Related area esp. to the type of law I was doing.

    I don’t think I took a domestic relations course in law school, it’s been awhile. I have read up on it on the net since law school though.

    Are you saying there was a 50-50 property split in California before 1969?

    There sure wasn’t in most states. Also the community property vs. equitable distribution and maybe some others distinctions have grown to mostly just be terminology. There’s some tendency in some equitable distribution states to divide all wealth, or all the husband’s wealth whenever earned equally, though usually not inherited wealth. The equitable distribution part is mostly in practice used to not give a lower earning man half if he wasn’t a model husband doing well over half the housework, etc.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Doug

    With all due respect, if you done “a lot of looking into this” you would know that community property law was not adopted in the Western states of the United States in the 70s.

    Your opinion of the “fairness” of this is of course something you are entitled to. You have an opinion, just as you have an asshole, and the extent to which I care to devote myself to a consideration of either is entirely something within my discretion. But when you make misstatements expect to be corrected. I hope you are not offended by my amendatory remarks.

  • Jhane Sez

    “I find your views on this disgusting frankly and increadably Team Woman American feminist greedy.”

    Doug1…

    I am only going to address this one time and one time only with you and this is also for the benefit of others who use this type of language or share in your opinions.

    You boys use the word feminist like the word bitch…

    You write it like you would spit it in my face if you could

    You take an intellectual exchange of ideas and resort to personal attacks like a petulant child

    Stop it

    Because most times the attempt to stamp the feminist label on a chicks comments is just wrong

    There are those who then can’t even man up after admit they were mistaken and apologize

    They just go back in spoiling for another fight

    Another opportunity to spit feminist in some chicks face before you ask her intent

    Stop it

    And if you can’t control yourself… then just stop typing ~JS

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You boys use the word feminist like the word bitch…

      You write it like you would spit it in my face if you could

      You take an intellectual exchange of ideas and resort to personal attacks like a petulant child

      Stop it

      Amen and God bless Jhane Sez. Doug has totally derailed the entire thread with his grandstanding and hyperbole. Every time a woman disagrees with him, he claims “feminist bullshiite.” Munson knows what’s up.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Doug
    Did I misunderstand your remarks? I thought you said community property law was adopted in the 70s. I have never dealt with, nor studied, any other system. Community property law existed in California before 1969. I am unaware of the other systems and have no comment on them. Anything earned by the community would be subject to 50/50 division. Community property law was inherited in California from Mexico and fixed in its constitution.California’s No Fault Divorce law, adopted in 1969, did not change that.

  • Doug1

    I didn’t go to law school in any of the nine western states that apparently inherited it from Spain, even such norther ones as Idaho (how did that happen??) some googling on the history of it has revealed to me.

    I might be wrong that 50-50 began in California in 1969. Something about it did happen then though.

    I’m not wrong that it only spread around the country in effect, usually under the title of equitable distribution in the 1970’s under a feminist push for “equal partnership marriage, including economically”. It amazes me that the Spanish long had an equal division of what’s earned in marriage rule. Then again I imagine the Spanish conceived of as divorce only happening in their Catholic realms due to great marital fault on the part of the husband, such as abandonment and not merely adultery. The English common law sure as hell didn’t have community property or something functionally pretty much equivalent in England in 2000, or in America beginning in the 70’s, usually called equitable distribution.

    I’d guess there was no alimony in Spanish/Mexican law. Do you know?

  • Doug1

    tvmunson–

    California’s No Fault Divorce law, adopted in 1969, did not change that.

    Ah, ok. That’s what I was mixing up. It sure as hell should have changed it.

  • Doug1

    *in England until 2000

  • Jhane Sez

    My personal beliefs on divorce are really situation dependant.

    I think there should be a penalty for fraud and cheating that is not gender exclusive.

    JLo cheat on Chris Judd with Ben Afleck… so even though they were only married 9 months he deserved the 6.6M he got.

    Brittany had to pay Kevin Federline in excess of a million dollars in addition to 20K a month in child support.

    Totally fair he was the stable consistent parent… which is scary considering who we are talking about… but based upon the length of marriage and lifestyle I think the judgement was very fair.

    Kathy Griffen had to pay her husband Mathew Moline an undisclosed amount even though he stole 72K from her personal accounts.

    This is gutter behavior and completely breaks trust I know people this has happened to and I have had an ex steal checks from the last pages of my check book…

    So male or female this type of behavior should get jack… especially considering that their are no children.

    But in this case their pre nup didn’t make provisions or assumptions of theft so he got the amount agreed upon in the pre-nump even though he deserved squat.

    I think that there is no perfect solution in dividing the spoils of marriage because human beings are involved… and we are all so flawed ~JS

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez—

    I am only going to address this one time and one time only with you and this is also for the benefit of others who use this type of language or share in your opinions.

    Aren’t you special!

    You take an intellectual exchange of ideas and resort to personal attacks like a petulant child

    No one does personal attacks more than American feminists, who I can’t stand. I’m most definitely anti-feminist (well I’m for basic feminism).

    Stop it

    Because most times the attempt to stamp the feminist label on a chicks comments is just wrong

    There are those who then can’t even man up after admit they were mistaken and apologize.

    No and no. They may not always be current leading edge radical feminist, which is what most women mean today they don’t agree with when they say they aren’t feminist, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to continue to profit from very misandrous unfair to men feminist inspired laws.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez—

    JLo cheat on Chris Judd with Ben Afleck… so even though they were only married 9 months he deserved the 6.6M he got

    Don’t agree he should get squat, though only if she wouldn’t in a reverse situation.

    Brittany had to pay Kevin Federline in excess of a million dollars in addition to 20K a month in child support.

    Totally fair he was the stable consistent parent… which is scary considering who we are talking about… but based upon the length of marriage and lifestyle I think the judgement was very fair.

    I don’t know about the million dollars but it’s fair she has to pay child support due to being so unstable and the clearly less fit parent during that time period. 20K a month though does seem excessive and inclusive of also stealth alimony, but if women routinely get that men should too. I don’t think either should, to that degree.

    I think that there is no perfect solution in dividing the spoils of marriage because human beings are involved… and we are all so flawed ~JS

    Yeah that’s just pablum and squid ink. You support the current extremely misandrous American divorce law and family courts system.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    The problem is no-fault divorce gives frivolous cases the same result as ones with infidelity.

  • Jhane Sez

    “The problem is no-fault divorce gives frivolous cases the same result as ones with infidelity.”

    This is not true… at least not in Illinois

    Illinois has no fault divorce laws based on living separate and apart for six (6) months, if both parties agree in writing.

    If only one spouse brings the action for divorce, the laws for living separate and apart require a period of two (2) years.

    In addition to no fault grounds, Illinois laws also allow the following fault grounds for divorce:
    1. Impotency;
    2. Adultery;
    3. Willful desertion or abandonment for at least one (1) year;
    4. Habitual drunkenness for at least one year;
    5. Gross habits caused by excessive use of addictive drugs for two (2) years;
    6. Attempting the life of another;
    7. Extreme and repeated physical or mental cruelty;
    8. Conviction of a felony; or
    9. Infecting the other spouse with a sexually transmitted disease;

    Not the same at all ~JS

  • Lokland

    @ Susan

    “Ouch. Even if that’s true, do you really think that’s what women want to hear? That’s one hell of a big red pill.

    “I don’t find you smoking hot. Well, not even sexy. As matter of fact, you’re not very cute. Wanna date?””

    Really? Not what I said but okay. I meant men are capable of finding a variety of women pretty. In uni I would say I would have gladly started a relationship with 8 out of 10 women. Some were cute, some were drop dead gorgeous. The difference between cute and sexy for your average guy in an LTR is zero.

    As for knowing yor partner doesn’t find you sexy.
    Is that not what your doing when encouraging them to find betas and not alphas?
    Men don’t like hearing it but fact of the matter is unless your alpha she can’t find you sexy. She can love you but she will never lust for you. I don’t like the thought of it but in reality thats what every beta male faces every day. Myself included.

  • Jhane Sez

    “Men cheat more than women do. How do you account for that in divorces initiated by women? He breaks the contract, she files. Sounds fair to me. Yes, there are frivolous divorces, but I’d like to know what percentage of female-initiated divorces they are. I think this theme is exaggerated and overblown in the manosphere echo chamber.”

    I’m paraphrasing, it goes something like this… women initiate the divorce filing 70% of the time citing adultery as grounds 60% of the time

    Adultery is the number one cited reason for divorce.

    I don’t know about other states but ‘frivolous’ divorce is expensive if the couple are not in agreement… especially if there are children.

    Contrary to popular belief, at least here in IL, your spouse can’t just kick you out of the house that you paid for… as evidenced by the rise in separated and divorced couples still residing in the same house because they can’t sell it.

    You see a LOT of this where I live… which ironically was voted one of the best places in America to raise kids~JS

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    “Provide stats for this or shut up.”

    I’m not sure what percentage of divorces are at-fault vs. no-fault. But it’s estimated that about 95% of divorces are uncontested, meaning the two parties agree on the division of property and child custody without the court getting involved. I’m not suggesting divorce is painless or never one-sided, but it seems that in a lot of cases the two adults can behave rationally. I hope to never go through it, but the lesson is clear: marriage is great, if and only if you’re in it with a very compatible and faithful partner.

    FWIW, you’re never going to win with the “I hate statistics” crowd. Every fact that doesn’t conform can be tossed out because of this “hypergamy” notion, or some other sinister reason. The sweeping generalizations have become pretty tedious to slog through. Not to mention repetitive, like a broken record.

  • GudEnuf

    What happened to the forum? The new posts have disappeared. It’s like the forum went back in time.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Men don’t like hearing it but fact of the matter is unless your alpha she can’t find you sexy. She can love you but she will never lust for you. I don’t like the thought of it but in reality thats what every beta male faces every day. Myself included.

    Wrong. My BF is definitely not alpha and I lust for him every day. Girls build attraction over time, and emotional attachment is part of sexual attraction. I think it’s something guys will never understand, being the more visual “love at first sight” gender.

    On the other hand, I like what Jesus Mahoney says about natural alphas and betas… there’s no such thing, there are only alpha and beta traits. My BF exhibits mostly beta traits, but I’ve seen a little alpha mixed in, and I won’t lie, it’s hot. However, the fact that he exhibits mostly beta traits doesn’t make me lust for him any less.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    572 Susan Walsh December 17, 2011 at 2:49 pm wrote:

    Haha! Vive la difference between the sexes.

    And yes, you were right re FML. There’s actually a funny blog by that name:

    http://www.fmylife.com/

    I see.

    18534413 SuperCoolGurl wrote:

    Today, the cute guy in my class asked if I wanted to come over to his house to “study” on Saturday for our finals. I went to his house expecting a good time. He actually wanted to study. FML

    557 Susan Walsh December 17, 2011 at 1:56 pm wrote:

    OK, I think we’re back to correct pagination. Lost the quicktags. I’ll at least add in a note explaining which HTML tags work.

    Well, on Recent Comments box

    Olive on The Grim Beeper

    link is http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/15/relationshipstrategies/the-grim-beeper/comment-page-4/#comment-82988
    when correct link is http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/15/relationshipstrategies/the-grim-beeper/comment-page-5/#comment-82988

    That was from new window to which I was given URL on location bar: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/15/relationshipstrategies/the-grim-beeper/comment-page-4/#respond

    That Preview-button changes font size undeterminated way between lines.

    I do not have yet figured out, how to give stable link to comment.

    / Kari Hurtta

  • http://www.thoughtsfromtheboonies.blogspot.com Jason

    I would have to echo Olive’s comments. I’m no Mystery, but I can certainly attract my fiancée.

  • Jhane Sez

    “I have known three couples to divorce when the husbands revealed, in their 40s, that they were gay and felt the need to live an authentic life.”

    I was just running through a list in my head of all the celebrity beard marriages… both alleged and verified.

    Star Jones, Rene Zellweger, Drew Barrymore, Terry McMillian… Lou Diamond Phillips.

    I wonder what percentage of divorces filed citing adultery are a result of sexual orientation.

    Cheating is cheating but it goes to a whole another level when you find that your partner has lied about their sexual preference or orientation.

    This also brought to mind the recent discussion on 3 somes and the like within marriages and LTRs… I have read more on mansphere regarding the fear men have of being cuckold, with no mention of the possibility of being dumped for another woman.

    Its not that far fetched… I have known and heard of a couple of women doing just that, specifically where the couple got into 3 ways and the two women fell in love and ran off.

    I’m seeing more and more of my peer group of women 40+ opting for romantic relationships with each other… one girl I know said that she does every thing else with her girlfriends she might as well.

    And among my daughters peer group she is pointing out more girls who are dating girls… a trend that has been growing since she was in junior high. I admit I felt kinda sad because I didn’t have to figure out how to turn down the advances of another girl until I was in college and she had to politic that when she was 11.

    I read about men going their own way on the mansphere blogs… encouraging each other to opt out of marriage and to enter into relationships with suspicion of her financial motives.

    So now I have got to wonder if part of the fall out will be women forming relationships with other women so that they have partners and financial, emotional security.

    I think we need to rethink our adversarial positions because nobody is winning… we are just scoring points off each other ~JS

  • Jhane Sez

    ”Finally, Russell Simmons has words for those who have decried the $20, 000 per month he is paying for each daughter ($480,000 per year in child support) and those who have labeled his ex-wife as an opportunist and gold-digger.”I want to say that Kimora is an excellent mother and is doing a great job with them,” Simmons states emphatically. “Regarding the money, my kids live a tremendous life. They do have lots of security, nannies, educators, special programs, travel, chefs, on and on. Their mother manages all of those luxuries and I’m happy to provide for that.”

    I pulled this quote from an article that Malia linked to upthread (#604)… I think that when child support numbers are often taken out of context, especially if you don’t have children.

    In IL a person who earns 50K per year if they were paying the max in support for one child would be $833.33… and that may sound like a lot of money to support a child that is in school all day but look at the numbers…

    Before and After Care 412 per month
    School Lunch 60 per month
    Groceries just for the child 150

    That leaves aprox 211 to cover all of the child’s other expenses, medical, clothing, school fees, field trips, extracurricular school activities, etc.

    And all of that is for the sole support of the child without even touching actual living expenses like housing and utility cost.

    So if both parents make about the same amount of money it is a wash… and this amount gets reduced depending on custodial time.

    This is basic care for ages 5 thru 12 (infants and teens cost more)… no private school, no nannies, no expensive hobbies or private lessons music, theater, or sports are included, all of that would be extra.

    Factor in say winter, spring and summer breaks… the YMCA offers camps which will run you about $265 per week… and in the summer you have to pay the $2650 up front in cash before the sessions start… and that only gets you coverage for 10 weeks

    Most men shell out what may seem to be large amounts of money because they want more for their children than just the basics.

    So yes… someone with Russel Simmons means would gladly shell out a half million a year to cover all the expenses he mentioned because he knows that money is benefiting his daughters… not Kimora.

    And in the real world most women I know would gladly accept him paying these expenses directly if he didn’t want to put the money in her hand.

    So can we please end the child support is some huge stealth alimony conspiracy… because it just doesn’t add up ~JS

  • Emily

    >> Wrong. My BF is definitely not alpha and I lust for him every day. Girls build attraction over time, and emotional attachment is part of sexual attraction. I think it’s something guys will never understand, being the more visual “love at first sight” gender.

    This, this, this!!!!!!!!!

    Maybe I’m weird, but I’ve often developed crushes on guys who were previously in the LJBF category. There are very few guys who I’m attracted to *right away* (which is another reason why any cold approaches are pretty much doomed to fail). It takes me a while to warm up to people. That doesn’t make the attraction any less real though.

    It also goes the other way. There are guys who I initially thought were hot who I’m later completely turned off by, for whatever reason. (ie. they turn out to be stupid, or mean, or whatever).

  • Emily

    This link is interesting (you have to scroll through to see the other prenups):

    http://www.aisledash.com/2008/01/16/crazy-celebrity-prenups-catherine-zeta-jones-and-michael-dougla/

    I don’t think these prenups are that crazy though. I like the idea of a fidelity clause. I’d be fine with signing a prenup, but I’d probably insist on something similar. A divorce that happens because he screwed the secretary isn’t the same thing as me being all “Eat Pray Love”.

  • Sassy6519

    Girls build attraction over time, and emotional attachment is part of sexual attraction. I think it’s something guys will never understand, being the more visual “love at first sight” gender.

    Ditto on this also. There are two distinct piles of men for me.

    1. Men who I am instantly physically attracted to.
    2. Men who become attractive to me over time.

    Neither one is better than the other, only different.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    Provide stats for this or shut up. Men cheat more than women do.

    Dubious. Women lie down their numbers of lifetime sex partners and cheating partners far more than men lie them up, fake polygraph studies have shown. Men in fact turn out to be roughly accurate, unlike women, who lie down. Even when they think they’re being polygraphed they still are probably lying down, because they’ve convinced themselves, many of them, that a terrible sex encounter doesn’t count, nor a drunken one she only dimly remembers, and so on.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Dubious. Women lie down their numbers of lifetime sex partners and cheating partners far more than men lie them up, fake polygraph studies have shown. Men in fact turn out to be roughly accurate, unlike women, who lie down. Even when they think they’re being polygraphed they still are probably lying down, because they’ve convinced themselves, many of them, that a terrible sex encounter doesn’t count, nor a drunken one she only dimly remembers, and so on.

      I am aware of ONE fake polygraph study with n=100, and women reduced their number of sexual partners by half a person, on average. I think they said 3.5 instead of 4, approx. If you have other examples, please provide them. Otherwise, this is just another manosphere trope with little or no basis in reality.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    ”Finally, Russell Simmons has words for those who have decried the $20, 000 per month he is paying for each daughter ($480,000 per year in child support) and those who have labeled his ex-wife as an opportunist and gold-digger.”I want to say that Kimora is an excellent mother and is doing a great job with them,” Simmons states emphatically. “Regarding the money, my kids live a tremendous life. They do have lots of security, nannies, educators, special programs, travel, chefs, on and on. Their mother manages all of those luxuries and I’m happy to provide for that.”

    It’s fine if it wants to voluntarily provide that, and it appears he does. It’s obscene for him to be required to provide that, most of which is in effect alimony to his ex wife, who is free to fuck as many hot studs on his money as she wishes, without care as to their ability to provide.

    Period.

    We have the most unfair to men divorce system in the world.

    England’s child support is less than 2/3rds ours from what I’ve been able to figure out. (This stuff is rather hard to web research.)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Doug1

    I agree with Susan. Seriously, put up or shut up.

  • Doug1

    Norway and Sweden’s percentage of after tax child support=also stealth alimony here, seems to be much lower. Plus Anne has said repeatedly that Norway does property division according to who has title to the real estate, who owns the banking or stock account, and so on (unless there’s a contract to the contrary between the spouses, which she has said is unusual). Like I recommend in an American prenup, as a way of offsetting to some degree out very misandrous divorce laws, which Susan herself acknowledged in the post in chief.

  • Höllenhund

    “Men cheat more than women do.”

    What do you base this on? Do you actually think any survey can uncover the true extent of female infidelity given that women are very adept at hiding their infidelity due to evo psych?

    “Amen and God bless Jhane Sez.”

    Well, well, what a curious statement from a woman who supposedly disagrees with feminism.

    @Megaman

    “I’m not sure what percentage of divorces are at-fault vs. no-fault.”

    Correct me if I’m wrong but none of the federal states have at-fault divorce in the books anymore. It doesn’t exist as a legal category in the USA, does it? This is why I’m skeptical of the supposedly 60% of divorce-initiating women citing adultery as grounds for divorce. They don’t have to cite ANY grounds, do they? That’s why no-fault divorce is, well, “no-fault”. I suspect they often just invent some bullshit reason to file for divorce, and adultery is a perfect one. The real reason is often that “they’ve grown apart”, “I’m no longer feeling it”, “we fell out of love” to use female vocabulary.

    “But it’s estimated that about 95% of divorces are uncontested, meaning the two parties agree on the division of property and child custody without the court getting involved.”

    It may have something to do with the high likelihood that the husband knows he’ll get disemboweled in divorce court if he contests so he just decides not to do so.

  • Höllenhund

    “Oh and I meant to say that Miranda is not only beautiful/gorgeous, but is so in a very feminine, engaging, delightful looking way. I mean she just makes me smile. As well many of her pics have this coy feminine quality to them, but also a fun vibe. Delightful!”

    Yeah, but by and large she has the same body type as Gisele – which is hardly surprising when you consider they have the same peculiar type of job. That’s one reason I have disagree with the notion that Gisele is somehow reminiscent of a ‘drag queen’.

  • Doug1

    Susan–

    I am aware of ONE fake polygraph study with n=100, and women reduced their number of sexual partners by half a person, on average. I think they said 3.5 instead of 4, approx.

    It’s the best study out there that I’ve seen for investigating this hard to investigate phenomenon. The number change was also greater that that.

    As well in my personal experience with many, many girls, when I start talking to them about this stuff, at first the give very vague or the impression of very low results, but when I keep encouraging them along the lines of I really like “sexually adventurous girls (which is true for some things), girls some people would call sluts, they’re more fun, and so on, they start to spill, and both events, and numbers, start to multiply big time. I enjoy these stories. I’ve had this experience basically countless times with girls I figured were probably well experienced.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    And in the real world most women I know would gladly accept him paying these expenses directly if he didn’t want to put the money in her hand.

    The American theory of child support is that he pays for HALF of the kid’s expenses, she pays for the other half. Actually it’s he pays his proportionate income percentage of them, she pay’s her’s.

    Here’s the major rub. There’s never any accounting of what she actually spends from her own income on the kid(s). There’s also no accounting of how she spends the child support=also stealth alimony she gets from him (the more so the more he makes). Also, and this is big, American family courts will attribute income to him quite often when he’s unemployed or underemployed that he doesn’t have, just assuming with no good evidence that he’s shirking. They’ll do it if he used to be say a highly paid big law senior associate, but then decided he’d much rather be a law journalist for a lot less money. Happens on the regular all the freaking time. To men. Almost never to women with custody. If she doesn’t want to work, fine. He pays the same as if she was working for good money. If she wants to pursue a fun job for low pay instead of a more stressful higher paying one, fine again, same result, no imputed income to the female by American family courts.

    It’s massively misandrous. And no I’m not a bitter “men going their own way” MRA. I do great with women. But the facts are the facts. I learned about them only during and post my divorce, where I got off relatively lightly, though I still thought it massively unfair. Why the hell should my working but not making much ex wife who rarely cooked for us or did much of anything else around the house (I hired a housekeeper) get almost half of my wealth??? Obscene. I then learned how much worse it is for many men, in an effort to protect myself and men in general from such depredations (divorce theft) in the future.

  • Höllenhund

    This is somewhat off-topic, but I’ve looked at the biographies of some Victoria’s Secret Angels after Ms. Walsh raised the subject, and based on what I’ve read it doesn’t seem that young women of highest/supreme status (from a male POV, obviously) have much difficulty securing LTRs with attractive men. Many of them got married relatively young. This appears to contradict the notion that the hypergamy of high-status women goes into overdrive, leaving them lonely spinsters. Maybe they have a better future-time orientation than other women and can control their hypergamy better?

  • Jhane Sez

    “It’s fine if it wants to voluntarily provide that, and it appears he does. It’s obscene for him to be required to provide that, most of which is in effect alimony to his ex wife, who is free to fuck as many hot studs on his money as she wishes, without care as to their ability to provide.”

    Kimora is independently wealthy, Russel does not support her lifestyle and she is not slutting around she is remarried.

    Most people with children come to an agreement on support based upon the needs of the child… court ordered support usually occurs when the parents can’t agree or the paying parent doesn’t pay on time or at all.

    “We have the most unfair to men divorce system in the world.
    England’s child support is less than 2/3rds ours from what I’ve been able to figure out. (This stuff is rather hard to web research.)”

    No its not… it took me 2 seconds to find the following…

    Under the CSA rules the parent who gets the child benefit from the government (the “parent with care”) can make an application to the CSA for maintenance against the other parent (the “non-resident parent”).
    The basic assessment is based on a percentage of the payer’s net income (after tax, National Insurance Contributions and pension contributions) at 15%, 20% or 25% for 1, 2 or 3 or more children respectively (“basic rate”).
    The assessment is made on weekly figures (12/52 – months/weeks – of monthly figures, about 23%, not ¼). The following other main provisions apply:
    The maximum net income the CSA works on is £2,000 per week. If the non-resident parent has income above that the other parent can apply fortop-up maintenance to the court once the CSA has made an assessment.

    Note the percentages are lower because they have national health care and other insurances.

    “This is why I’m skeptical of the supposedly 60% of divorce-initiating women citing adultery as grounds for divorce. They don’t have to cite ANY grounds, do they? That’s why no-fault divorce is, well, “no-fault”. I suspect they often just invent some bullshit reason to file for divorce, and adultery is a perfect one. The real reason is often that “they’ve grown apart”, “I’m no longer feeling it”, “we fell out of love” to use female vocabulary.”

    There is still fault divorce in IL and other states, also no fault divorce is not just filing and poof your divorced

    You either have to both agree and sign off, and even then there is a waiting period, or in most cases you have to wait a minimum of one year and upwards of five.

    It seems that alot of these discussions involve more dogma than facts.

    I don’t understand why someone would argue a point with no facts to back it up ~JS

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    I’m paraphrasing, it goes something like this… women initiate the divorce filing 70% of the time citing adultery as grounds 60% of the time

    Cite your sources.

    Wrong. Very wrong. I’ve seen studies at least two sizeable ones, don’t have them at hand at the moment, and the percentages that involved male cheating were vastly lower. WAY below 50%. Below 20%. I think iirc it was in the 10% range. Not the leading cause at all.

    The leading causes were a bunch of things I mentioned above that can very reasonably be interpreted as she isn’t feeeeeeling it so much anymore, and wants to go hunting for her next serial monogamy, on divorce theft from her husband.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    Under the CSA rules the parent who gets the child benefit from the government (the “parent with care”) can make an application to the CSA for maintenance against the other parent (the “non-resident parent”).
    The basic assessment is based on a percentage of the payer’s net income (after tax, National Insurance Contributions and pension contributions) at 15%, 20% or 25% for 1, 2 or 3 or more children respectively (“basic rate”).
    The assessment is made on weekly figures (12/52 – months/weeks – of monthly figures, about 23%, not ¼). The following other main provisions apply:

    Those percentages are MUCH lower than the US, and they’re assessed on AFTER tax income, not pretax income (remember we have state and sometimes city tax as well as federal tax). It’s vastly less.

    Yes there is a tendency in Europe for social welfare to pay for more of divorced and never married mother’s maintenance. Government as daddy.

    Damn women should have to stay married if they want support from other than their own working income. Even if he’s cheated a time or two but hasn’t abandoned or neglected her. Vastly too much female entitlement has gone on. Vastly too much.

  • Emily

    >> Cite your sources.
    Wrong. Very wrong. I’ve seen studies at least two sizeable ones, don’t have them at hand at the moment, and the percentages that involved male cheating were vastly lower. WAY below 50%. Below 20%. I think iirc it was in the 10% range. Not the leading cause at all.

    You’re not citing your sources either!

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    Doug
    ‘S cool. I apologize for my truculence.

    I’m recalling my domestic relations law. Here goes. Yes I think the Spanish law derived from the Catholic canon law. When a woman married her separate existence was extinguished, thus she “melded” (my wording, and poor) into the marital estate. Thus the “community” is established through the husband. As I understand it this was the practice in Roman times allowing for inheritance by the wife and the Church may have gotten it from them. Now I’m really guessing; when the Spanish law recognized divorce (the Church didn’t-still doesn’t) it would thus be the dissolution of-what? This “indissolvable” community. This may have created the 50/50 split that Spanish law provided.

    I do know community property principles were established before Mexico was settled by the Spanish. California was part of Mexico. I do not know what variations from Spanish law Mexico imposed.

    As to alimony, I do not know if either Spanish or Mexican law provided for it. I’d be surprised if it was. You derived income from the land, but the cash economy was not like it is now and monitoring alimony in a more barter based one economy would be difficult. At this point we do need a domestic relations expert, but I’ll offer my 2 cents not adjusted for inflation. Although used interchangeably, I understood alimony to be a part of the non-community states attempt to achieve equity ( isn’t divorce part of the equitable powers of the court?) in the distribution of assets. Spousal maintenance is simply to allow the spouse funds to get an education, get on her (usually her) feet, etc. Spousal maintenance has a fixed time limit set by statute, alimony does not. I could be way off; I know I’m outdated.. Plus despite the “no fault” declaration, every divorce lawyer knows that bad behavior can be factored in although unacknowledged in the actual decree.

    We also got common law marriage (abolished in Idaho) from canon law.

    Class dismissed. Be reminded that Prof. Munson remains available for special tutorials for the nubile young females so desiring same.

  • Jhane Sez

    “There’s never any accounting of what she actually spends from her own income on the kid(s). There’s also no accounting of how she spends the child support=also stealth alimony she gets from him (the more so the more he makes).”

    You are going to have to show me your math.

    If a couple goes to court for child support ALL of the child/children’s expenses are gone over with a fine tooth comb.

    In IL there is a maximum the courts can award regardless of what the actual expenses are and for one child that is based on 20% of the net income… in part because one of the largest custodial parent expense are education and/or child care, and child care can be covered by pre tax cafe plans as long as you provide proof of payment.

    If both parents make 50K per year they are each going to kick in more than 10K a piece just covering expenses the childs expenses…

    “Cite your sources.

    Wrong. Very wrong. I’ve seen studies at least two sizeable ones, don’t have them at hand at the moment, and the percentages that involved male cheating were vastly lower. WAY below 50%. Below 20%. I think iirc it was in the 10% range. Not the leading cause at all.”

    Out of 100 divorces aprox 70 are initiated by women… of those 70 aprox 42 will cite adultery… that would be about 42%

    I have read that adultery is listed as the cause in aprox ⅓ of all marriages, followed by a break down of communication and then money.

    I will go and find it later… or you can google it yourself and prove me wrong.~JS

  • Lokland

    @ Doug

    “Even if he’s cheated a time or two but hasn’t abandoned or neglected her. Vastly too much female entitlement has gone on. Vastly too much.”

    Hell no. Marriage is a contract that includes fidelity (unless written secially) that applies to most married couples. Break the contract forfeit your rights, goes for both sexs.

    @ Sassy

    “Ditto on this also. There are two distinct piles of men for me.

    1. Men who I am instantly physically attracted to.
    2. Men who become attractive to me over time.

    Neither one is better than the other, only different.”

    Ask any guy which group he would rather be in. (Hint: its not number 2.)
    Personal story time. I had a former girlfriend who I’d been going out with for about 9 months. (Most recent ex actually.) TBH I think I could have married her.
    She for some completely un-understandable reason decided to inform me that:i) I was part of group number 2, ii) when we first met she found my friend more attractive than me.
    She never gave me a reason to suspect her of cheating or even thinking about it. I’m not sure which of the two things were worse but she is my ex for a reason. It was literally just as bad if I had learned she was a reformed carousel rider.

    My point in bringing up the ideas of feminine beauty was actually for a more basic reason. The defintion of alpha physically givne here by both men and women is: tall, fit, lean.
    How many men can that possibly apply to?
    If we assume tall as over 6′ thats 15ish% of the male population. Throw in lean and fit and you drop it even further. Therefore most guys can’t be alpha=attractive. So in reality the male standard of beauty is ridculously unattainable.

    The female standard of beauty I promoted was pretty much unattainable, but lets accept it thats what people want because that what the media industry tells us. Its unrealistic but atleast its fair.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    176 Olive December 15, 2011 at 7:02 pm wrote:

    […], Susan was pissed and deleted some of his advice […]

    He’s been participating minimally, so very few arguments so far.

    Of course, if comments are deleted, it does not make sense to participate on discussion. Also, if comments are deleted or moderated, you do not know if someone is participating or is it only that you do not see comments. †

  • Emily

    @ Lokland

    >>Hell no. Marriage is a contract that includes fidelity (unless written secially) that applies to most married couples. Break the contract forfeit your rights, goes for both sexes.

    Hear, hear!

    And that was an awful thing for your ex to say! (And obviously the cheating is inexcusable as well).

    For me, I don’t just have these groups:
    “1. Men who I am instantly physically attracted to.
    2. Men who become attractive to me over time.”

    …but also a third (and possibly largest) group:
    3. Men I never develop a sexual attraction for.

    So the guys from pile #2 still have a special place for me. I would never tell a guy if he was in pile #2 though, in the same way that I wouldn’t want him to tell me that he wished I was Miranda Kerr. It’s just a mean thing to do.

    I also agree with you re: height discrimination. If a guy is out of shape or poorly dressed, that’s something that can be changed, but there’s not really anything that you can do about your height. I can be picky when it comes to some things, but I’m actually fairly lenient when it comes to height. I’m tall for a girl (5’10), and I’ve been known to date shorter guys. People actually used to make jokes about the height difference between me and my previous boyfriend (tbh, I think it bothered him a lot more than it bothered me.) I know a lot of girls who REFUSE to date any guy who’s shorter than them, but if I do that then I automatically filter out half of the male population based on that one trait. I have other things that I’d rather be picky about haha.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    191 Michael of Charlotte December 15, 2011 at 8:49 pm wrote:

    [q]They estimated that a 30 year-old had an 80% chance of getting pregnant in […]

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  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Emily 694

    Re Short Guys
    I guarantee you it ANY guy you date who is shorter than you will be bothered. Being short really messes a guy up. It’s why so many weight lifters are short. In fact, guys call it “short man syndrome”-so many out and out assholes are short dudes. Also lots of good trial lawyers, most actors, rock stars (not only short, often with too large heads-I mean literally). I’ve also heard from many chicks that interracial dating is ok but they would never date a shorter guy. I’m also 5′ 10″ so average. any chick as tall or taller would be unusually tall. If you wore pumps, you’d be taller than probably 65-70% of the guys.

  • Doug1

    Susan Walsh–

    To be honest, I have known only one couple to divorce at the wife’s behest. It was a family with 6 children, and she became pregnant with a 7th by another man, moved to Portland, OR and left her husband with the six. It later came out that three of those six were not his. She cuckolded him four times.

    How much child support is she paying for that brood of six she left him with, three of which weren’t even his own kids?????

    Is the court imputing income to her at the highest level she could earn, if she felt like it???

    Thought not.

    Yeah the divorce system in this country is fair, innit?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug1

      How much child support is she paying for that brood of six she left him with, three of which weren’t even his own kids?????

      Is the court imputing income to her at the highest level she could earn, if she felt like it???

      I honestly don’t know the details. He’s a lawyer with one of the big Boston firms, but she was a venture capitalist, so she had the potential to make the big bucks. Not sure if it panned out in OR. What’s remarkable – at least to me – is that he raised those six kids – his three and the other three too – and sent them all to college. He deserves sainthood, IMO. She was very distinct looking, and all 6 of the kids look exactly like her. You’d never know there had been a variety of men involved to look at them.

  • Doug1

    tv munson–

    Your last two graphs above are hilarious.

    Your points about Bonfire are well taken too. Loved that book. Love Tom Wolfe in general, read most of his books.

  • Lokland

    @ Emily

    I think you got my point, mostly.

    It was that in a world where men are expected to not be polygamous women should expect to be held to a standard as equally high as men.
    If women set a standard that is unattainable for 50% of the population the standard of female beauty must be much the same simply because people are monogamous.
    Fact of life, you can’t have a bunch of 6-10 women running around while men are scattered from 1-10. It just doesn’t work for a monogamous society. The solution is to take the female standard of beauty and move it up to that of mens. Do it though and you get a tongue lashing like no other.

    @Munson

    Heres how I got labelled with short man syndrome once.

    Me and my then girlfriend (now fiance) were at a club. I went to get us some water and when I get back some guys hitting on my girlfriend. I go sit next to her and say “I’ll take it from hear bud.”

    “Get lost midget.”

    . He gets club security. They pick me up and throw me out. Cops are outside, asshole follows me out accusing me harrassing him when he was hitting on a chick.
    Cop nonchalantly says I have short man syndrome. I get cuffed.
    At this point my girlfriend finally manages to push her way through the couple hundred people between our table and the door and starts explaining to the cops what happened. I get let go, let back into the club. An hour later same asshole was still there and didn’t face any kind of trouble.
    To make two notes, I didn’t drink that night. The asshole was hammered.
    Ya, thats how a short guy gets laballed with short man syndrome.

  • Doug1

    Jhane Sez–

    So can we please end the child support is some huge stealth alimony conspiracy… because it just doesn’t add up ~JS

    Balderdash. That’s why the extra amount of child support=also stealth alimony in most states only goes up by about 1/3 and sometimes less for a second child. Alimony detected.

  • Lokland

    @ Munson

    Cont’d from after the get lost midget bit.

    We eventually get to the point of yelling at each other. He finally gets the message and leaves. And goes and gets the security.

  • Emily

    @ tvmunson

    In my experience, the guys who love my height tend to be either on the shorter side or the taller side. Guys of average height don’t seem to care either way. YMMV though.

  • Doug1

    Lokland–

    Break the contract forfeit your rights, goes for both sexs.

    Except it doesn’t go for both sexes in the typical female hypergamous marriage. Not only does she automatically almost always get the kids if she wants them, she gets ginormous child support=also stealth alimony as a percentage of his after tax income, if he’s a strong earner in N.America (well I’m assuming Canada is similar on that), but she also gets half his considerably and often much higher accumulated wealth, and in many states alimony as well if she hasn’t been working and in California and Mass among other places, just because she makes a good lot less than he does.

    She gets that just the same if she’s the one that’s cheated and has refused to stop, and stopped wanting to have sex with him to boot. Some punishment of her for breaking the marital fidelity contract. He’s the one’s that punished just as much as if he had cheated and wouldn’t stop and she pulled the plug for contract violation.

    How in hell is that “just the same” ????????????????????????????????

  • jess

    people like different things and they can like a variety of body types.

    i have liked thin, tubby, muscular guys. guys with different hair colour or who were balding or had different personalities.

    i have a slim figure but got no better attention than my curvier friends.

    i have always found its what you WEAR that made a guys head turn.

  • Doug1

    Lokland–

    As well what about cases where he’s cheated because she stopped wanting to have sex after awhile except grudgingly once every two or three months, or blew up like a sea lion, cause she has that marital contract security blanket???

    Women in the Anglosphere and particularly the US are FAR too entitled in their feminist wrangled state imposed adhesion “marriage contracts”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For the record, I would like to state that a woman who refuses to have sex in a marriage has violated the marriage contract. It is no better than cheating in that it breaks the contract. I do not blame either party for getting sex elsewhere if a spouse has refused it. I have stated this before at HUS, but it’s relevant to this discussion.

      If my spouse refused sex I would probably offer the option: divorce or I get to have sexual partners outside the marriage.

      Obviously, I wouldn’t recommend the nuclear option to start. People have depressed sex drives for various reasons. But no one should expect a spouse to tolerate a celibate marriage. That’s not what they signed up for.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

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    / Kari Hurtta

  • Lokland

    @ Doug

    Were on the same page.
    I agree that current marriage is basically allowing women to cheat without punishement.
    I’d prefer a system were both sexs are punished for cheating but I’d take one where neither is punished over a system in which only one sex is punished.
    But I would still prefer the first system where cheating a no-go all around.

    As for the situation where a wife refuses to have sex. If its a validated medical concern, hormonal issue then yes it seems reasonable. It would also seem reasonable to allow the husband out of the house to have fun as well. (I know one couple like this, her sex drive is non-existent, he leaves to have his fun and comes home at the end of the night. They are very happy.)
    If it is her refusal to have sex I think the reason needs to be identified. If she has cheated and she doesn’t find her husband sexually atrractive anymore then yes her fault. If hubby went total placating beta, I can’t blame her so his fault.
    I think a case by case examination of it would work far better than general, over-arching law.

    Also, as a note a divorce case in Canada a few years ago resulted in this.

    Mommy makes 30k
    Daddy makes 30k

    2 kids (not sure on the ages)

    Divorce (reason unknown)

    Mommy gets house, kids and 60%(18k) of Dads paycheck in mixed alimony-child support.

    Therefore
    Mommy gets House, 2 kids and 18k.
    Daddy gets 12k.

    Lets do some numbers. Assuming Daddies 12k is what is required to live for an adult per year. Mommy + Daddy = 24k per year. That leaves 36k from the total household income to be given to kids and house.

    Therefore Daddies net worth pre-divorce is 30k, 1 kid, 1/2 house.
    1/2 house + 1 kid = 1/2 36k= 18k +30k = 48k
    Post-divorce Daddies net worth is 12k. Net-loss of 36k per year.

    Lets look at Mommy. Her net worth was equal to Dads pre-divorce.
    Post-divorce however. 1 house + 2 kids = 36k +30k = 76k.
    Net-gain = 40k per year.

    Robbery much?

    Thats kind of the defintion of theft isn’t it?
    (Note: This was the highest divorce settlement to date in Canada.)

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    210 OffTheCuff December 15, 2011 at 11:10 pm wrote:

    Our first was finally conceived via IUI. Since we went through 3 years of infertility, we figured didn’t need birth control anymore.

    Wrong! She was pregnant 3 months later. Barely recovered from the C-section.

    IUI = intrauterine insemination ?

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    212 J December 15, 2011 at 11:12 pm wrote:

    Yeah, and as much as the manosphere loves to say that sex appeal is more important than anything else, can you imagine your DH married to someone less intelligent, competent or educated than you are?

    DH = designated hitter ?

    No ?

    How about

    DH = dear husband ?

    / Kari Keeper-of-Acronyms

  • purplesneakers

    @ Olive

    “In my experience, it’s not the people who “cause the drama” who are to be avoided, it’s the people who silently act like they’re the nicest people in the world and then stab you in the back when you aren’t looking. In other words, it’s the people who hate conflict and avoid it like the plague, and don’t have the balls to say shit to your face, but they’ll gladly bad-mouth you when you’re not around. I had 2 friends like that, twin sisters. Everybody loved them, respected them, built them up, and they were super nice to your face. But I learned not to trust them when I realized how willing they were to throw me under the bus, then act like I was some sort of parasite. Don’t need people like that in my life, thanks.”

    Good point. I had a situation like that with a roommate, where she didn’t want to tell me to do things differently because she wanted to be “nice” and avoid conflict, but it only led to her building up resentment against me and culminated in a huge fight after which we never really talked much (for six months!). I also overheard her badmouthing me and saying that she had acquiesced to something I’d asked her for because she was “being nice.” Girls definitely do this more than boys, and it’s definitely because we’re raised to “be nice” and don’t know how to assert ourselves without coming off as bitchy or aggressive. I know it’s something I’m trying to learn.

    “And BTW, I STILL think those girls are bitches for the way they acted, and I’m trying to be very choosy about my friends these days. Things are slowly getting better, but I will be honest, I do think most girls are bitches and have actively been avoiding large groups of girls. I’ve been treated horribly by girls since I was 4.”

    Yeah, I have had horrible experiences with girls too, from elementary school to middle school to high school. I was lucky to find a really great group of girlfriends in college, but I guess the thing is that some of them are very explicitly not interested in meeting men/dating, and are not your typical girl, really, being more tomboyish (but not lesbians either). I still get nervous meeting more ‘normal/typical’ girls whose *main* interests are shopping and getting boys to buy things for them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @purplesneakers

      I still get nervous meeting more ‘normal/typical’ girls whose *main* interests are shopping and getting boys to buy things for them.

      This doesn’t ever stop. Raising two kids I often felt that many of the other school moms were just older versions of what you describe. Off to the mall for sushi in my Range Rover. Honestly, I kept my distance, and would never have been invited to join in any case. Once in a while I met an interesting mom who wasn’t so materialistic, and we would become friends. I still have a handful of friends from those school days – true blue. Be very selective in your choice of women friends.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @lok #700

    Hey, I didn’t say it was always fair. But it got to be a saying for a reason, right? I mean, some white guys CAN jump.

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    216 Anacaona December 15, 2011 at 11:45 pm wrote:
    <blockquote cite="http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/15/relationshipstrategies/the-grim-beeper/comment-page-2/#comment-82080&quot;
    [blockquote]I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.[/blockquote]

    Try
    <blockquote>I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.</blockquote>

    It gives

    I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.

    / Kari Hurtta

  • http://www.iki.fi/keh/ Kari Hurtta

    [ edit ]

    216 Anacaona December 15, 2011 at 11:45 pm wrote:

    [blockquote]I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.[/blockquote]

    Try
    <blockquote>I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.</blockquote>

    It gives

    I think one thing that tricks women into thinking they have forever is the large number of births to older celebs that are reported as natural when they clearly aren’t.

    / Kari Hurtta

    ( Preview -button seems not work very well. )

  • Anna

    I don’t think there is any good reason for cheating. Marriage is not a war, two people should be able to work this out. What happened to counseling? I understand you can end up enemies, but you cannot force someone to have sex with you out of duty. If you used to go at it like rabbits and you’re dependent on keeping that going, get a contract which says “Intercourse must happen at least once a week”.

    @ Doug, statistically though, men get wealthier after divorce. It doesn’t seem like they are generally being ripped off. Only reason men may lose money is if they have children with a woman and then meets a new one and have children with her. But that shouldn’t come as a great surprise, having children is costly.

  • Lokland

    @ Myself

    “Therefore Daddies net worth pre-divorce is 30k, 1 kid, 1/2 house.
    1/2 house + 1 kid = 1/2 36k= 18k +30k = 48k
    Post-divorce Daddies net worth is 12k. Net-loss of 36k per year.

    Lets look at Mommy. Her net worth was equal to Dads pre-divorce.
    Post-divorce however. 1 house + 2 kids = 36k +30k = 76k.
    Net-gain = 40k per year. ”

    These numbers are so fricking wrong its embarrassing. I’ll take my time to redo it.

    Both parents had a revnue of 30k per year. 60k total.
    Assuming 12k each in costs that leaves 36k for kids and house.
    Lets assume the kids are also 12k each. That leaves 12k for the house.

    I consider kids and house an investment so thats 18k each. Net gain per year.

    So lets conisder post divorce.

    From the 60k combined salary 12k goes to Dad. That leaves 48k for Mom. But Dad also loses all of his past investment on the house and 2 kids. So Dad is at at net-loss of 18k per year + 1/2 of kids and house at time of divorce. Mom gets a net-gain of 18k per year + 1/2 of the kids and house at time of divorce.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Lokland,

    Ask any guy which group he would rather be in. (Hint: its not number 2.)

    I mean yeah, ask any girl and she’ll tell you she wishes she was prettier. I guess what we’re telling you is it doesn’t really matter whether you fall into group 1 or 2, as in many cases, group 2 is preferable. It is for me anyway. I might find a guy easy on the eyes, but when he opens his mouth, I’m finished. Not interested. In the same vein, I can be eh about a guy, but once he starts talking I’m hooked.

    She for some completely un-understandable reason decided to inform me that:i) I was part of group number 2, ii) when we first met she found my friend more attractive than me.

    Well that was incredibly stupid. Good thing she’s out of the picture!

    To be fair, she probably still lusted for you, at least at some point (otherwise you wouldn’t have dated for 9 months). Most girls don’t date a guy just because he seems like he’d be a nice boyfriend, there has to be sexual attraction.

    My point in bringing up the ideas of feminine beauty was actually for a more basic reason. The defintion of alpha physically givne here by both men and women is: tall, fit, lean.
    How many men can that possibly apply to?
    If we assume tall as over 6′ thats 15ish% of the male population. Throw in lean and fit and you drop it even further. Therefore most guys can’t be alpha=attractive. So in reality the male standard of beauty is ridculously unattainable.

    Yeah I totally agree with this. Ladies have to lower their standards a bit. It wouldn’t be hard for them to do so, I guess that was my original point in bringing up that girls build attraction over time.

    The female standard of beauty I promoted was pretty much unattainable, but lets accept it thats what people want because that what the media industry tells us. Its unrealistic but atleast its fair.

    I don’t follow you here. Are you saying that because women have such high standards for “male beauty,” it’s only fair that men have high standards for feminine beauty?

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Doug #699

    The racial themes in those books are extensions of the theme he developed in an essay called “Mau-Mauing the Flak Catcher”. It’s about how inner city blacks, in order to get federal funds, go to great lengths to prove their authentic blackness (dashikis, head stuff-hell spears and waterbuffalo hide shields) to the dispenser of funds (the flakcatcher). Mau mau was an indigenous rebellion on Kenya early 60s involving the violent overthrow of British rule. Robert Ruark wrote 2 good books about it: “Something of Value” (Pulitzer I think) and “Uhuru”.

    Lok #700

    Don’t conflate what I said to infer lack of manliness. Baddest dudes I ever knew were shorter guys. Sonny Barger listed himself as 5 10-he weren’t (saw him once; I’d go 5 7 tops). Rose to the top of the Bay Area Hell’s Angels (basically heads all the chapters in the world) and he didn’t get there ‘cuz of his ballroom dancing. Also best trial lawyers.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    purplesneakers,
    You should read Anacaona’s blog, she has a fantastic post about the way girls become friends and interact with each other. Here’s the link:
    http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/

  • Lokland

    @ Anna

    “I understand you can end up enemies, but you cannot force someone to have sex with you out of duty. If you used to go at it like rabbits and you’re dependent on keeping that going, get a contract which says “Intercourse must happen at least once a week”. ”

    Yes you cannot force someone to have sex with you. Although I would argue its wrong for either spouse to force their SO to be celibate. If the situations were reversed I would say the wife is in the right to leave her husband.

    For example, me and my fiance both work-out, run, swim etc. If I decided to stop tommorow it would be wrong of me to make her stop as well. She should be able to keep going to the gym.
    The same applies for sex. However the problem is if you want your husband to be monogamous you have put him in a no win situation.
    He can be a good husband with no sex or a bad husband with sex. Theres no way for him to win which is wrong to do to someone you care about.

  • Lokland

    @ Olive

    “I don’t follow you here. Are you saying that because women have such high standards for “male beauty,” it’s only fair that men have high standards for feminine beauty?”

    Yup.
    Theres two solutions to get to monogamy in this SMP. Either women lower their standards, men raise theres or a bit of both. Frankly I don’t care which as long as it balances out.

    @ Munson

    No worries, I was just pointing out how easy it is to have that label thrown on you just because a person doesn’t sufficiently understand the circumstances. I should mention I was civil until he touched her, thats when I went off the handle at him.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    i admit i mostly skimmed the last 200 comments or so, but this one was a good one:

    #658 susan

    “Men cheat more than women do. How do you account for that in divorces initiated by women? He breaks the contract, she files. Sounds fair to me. ”

    great comment because again, it is so simple, so convenient.

    and because it reminded me of this great post by crime and federalism:

    http://www.crimeandfederalism.com/2011/05/female-ownership-of-male-sexuality.html

    “Guess what ladies, if you are not having sex with your men, then you cheated first. You have no moral superiority, and, if anything, are the ones who drew first blood. Take care of your men, drain their nut sacks, and they won’t have the energy to fuck around behind your backs.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @rivelino

      great comment because again, it is so simple, so convenient.

      You keep equating simple concepts and complicated execution. Can you really not tell the difference? It is simple to recognize that when a person cheats on a spouse, they have violated a contract. It’s also not debatable. It is also simple to recognize that the contract is rendered invalid by that violation of deceit and betrayal.

      However, this turn of events, initiated by the cheater, makes life anything but convenient for the victim. Whether the person stays or goes, everything about the marriage is now complicated and most probably extremely inconvenient.

      Making it through Christmas as a family? Inconvenient.
      Selling the house? Inconvenient.
      Getting back into the dating stream? Inconvenient.
      Hiring a lawyer? Inconvenient.
      Financial expense of marital dissolution? Inconvenient.
      Custody of children or pets? Inconvenient.
      Negotiation of friendships with other couples? Inconvenient.

      Rivelino, I know you’re trying to be sassy and glib, but the sarcasm is a fail when you don’t use proper language. You’d be better off just saying what you mean to say.

  • Lokland

    @ Olive

    Let me extend what I was saying before.

    If men are expected to be non-polygamous they should adopt a mild form of hypergamy. Again if I could not have quantity I would go for quality.
    I’m not suggesting we trade up every few years, nor do I think women should but if I can only have one I better make sure its the best one possible.
    Currently a man looking for an LTR only has one attraction test. Called the “boner test” by many. After that its the other qualities that become important. If women are picky this sets men up in a losing game, the solution is to become more picky yourself.

  • WarmWoman

    Regarding American women ranging from too nice to downright bitchy and agressive-

    I feel thatAmerican culture doesn’t teach us how to be assertive YET retain our femininity and sweetness. If we’re super sweet all of the time and please others, we’re doormats and told to toughen up. If we stand up for ourselves, we’re considered hostile and masculine.

    I have a Vietnamese friend that says her culture grooms women to be soft, yet not put up with anyone’s crap . You can be assertive and powerful without having to be bitchy and aggressive. It’s something that all of us have to learn. If a person still isn’t respecting you despite you being assertive, simply walk away and leave. There’s no reason to fight, swear, yell and get in people’s faces.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I have a Vietnamese friend that says her culture grooms women to be soft, yet not put up with anyone’s crap . You can be assertive and powerful without having to be bitchy and aggressive. It’s something that all of us have to learn. If a person still isn’t respecting you despite you being assertive, simply walk away and leave. There’s no reason to fight, swear, yell and get in people’s faces.

    +1!!

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Lokland,
    Had a major blockquote fail that got stuck in moderation, so I’ll try this again.

    Yup.
    Theres two solutions to get to monogamy in this SMP. Either women lower their standards, men raise theres or a bit of both. Frankly I don’t care which as long as it balances out.

    I agree. I would strongly favor option 1, though. Otherwise you have a bunch of hotties getting with each other at the top and the rest of us feeling cheated. The solution, then, is for women in the less-attractive 80% to start going for the less-attractive 80% of men. I’m cool with that; that’s what I’ve chosen, and it seems like many regular female commenters here have chosen that as well.

    If men are expected to be non-polygamous they should adopt a mild form of hypergamy. Again if I could not have quantity I would go for quality.
    I’m not suggesting we trade up every few years, nor do I think women should but if I can only have one I better make sure its the best one possible.
    Currently a man looking for an LTR only has one attraction test. Called the “boner test” by many. After that its the other qualities that become important. If women are picky this sets men up in a losing game, the solution is to become more picky yourself.

    Now here’s where I don’t necessarily agree. It’s true that a man should go for the best girl he can get, emphasis on can get. If he’s shooting too high (ahemRivelino), then he’s just as bad as all those picky women.

    But I don’t think it’s fair to equate female picky-ness with the female desire for monogamy. I’m probably not a “quality girl” by anyone’s standards (I definitely don’t look like Gisele or Miranda or whoever those people are), but I could never deal with a 1-way open situation. And just because I desire monogamy doesn’t mean I’m overly picky about how my men look.

  • Anna

    @ rivelino
    http://www.crimeandfederalism.com/2011/05/female-ownership-of-male-sexuality.html
    That rubbish cost me 2 minutes of my life I’ll never get back, but I’ll take the time to put the record straight.

    First of all – almost everybody masturbates, it is normal for men and women to do so even in relationships. For a woman to be outraged by a man who masturbates, is an exception.
    Then again, it is clear from the article that the author bases it all on his personal experiences, and there are several things which indicates that he is a Gamma and hates women. For instance:
    “It’s a Friday night, and you’re horny as hell. Your girl is tired, not in the mood, or just being a fucking cunt.”
    Surely this is not a serious blog?

    “Monogamy, to me, means you have sex with me only, and I have sex with you only. It doesn’t mean a girl gets to not have sex.”
    Women are not looking to end up in a sexless relationship. Their goal is not to have a boyfriend they do not have sex with. If that situation occurs, it is usually because the sparkle is gone and the guy you entered the relationship with has turned into..well, the article author. I wouldn’t want to have sex with him either.

    “Take care of your men, drain their nut sacks, and they won’t have the energy to fuck around behind your backs.”
    Completely untrue. It is well known that women primarily cheat when unhappy in a relationship, men cheat even when happy. It is a result of wanting variation, lack of moral or inability to resist temptation. Even men who can get sex regularly in their marriage, do cheat.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anna, Riv,
    I, too, am always surprised when I read stories of women who don’t have sex with their husbands, then get pissed at them for masturbating. I mean wtf, I’m in a LTR and I masturbate all the time (full disclosure for you lol).

    Also, maybe it’s because I’m 23 and childless and haven’t been married for 15 years, but at the moment I have a really hard time picturing a day during which I wouldn’t want to have sex. In fact, I could probably get it on 4 times a day if the circumstances were appropriate (i.e. if my BF and I lived alone and didn’t have other shit to do).

    However, I do believe the stories. I especially believe the lack of sex thing… women probably aren’t looking to jump in bed when they took care of screaming babies all day, they’re probably exhausted. But I like what Susan has said about being tired but doing it anyway. The masturbation thing is just weird though… maybe those ladies come from a different era? I always thought it was normal until I started reading these blogs.

  • Anna

    @ Olive
    Yes I agree, it is difficult to imagine the situation of every other woman. At 21, I would want to have sex every day and whenever I’ve been seeing someone we’ve usually had sex several times a day. But I cannot speak for women who’s been married 20 years. Could very well be that they said the same as me when they were 20 and never though they’d end up in a sexless marriage.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #726 anna

    “That rubbish”

    are you english? if so, sexy.

    if only pretending to be, not so sexy, but still amusing.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #726 anna

    “If that situation occurs, it is usually because the sparkle is gone and the guy you entered the relationship with has turned into..well, the article author.”

    that was actually funny! are you a really man, pretending to be a girl?

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #727 olive

    “maybe it’s because I’m 23 and childless and haven’t been married for 15 years, but at the moment I have a really hard time picturing a day during which I wouldn’t want to have sex. ”

    bless your soul. so innocent, so idealistic.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Could very well be that they said the same as me when they were 20 and never though they’d end up in a sexless marriage.

    Yeah I thought about that lol. Well at least now we know where we could end up? I’d like to hope that at 40, I remember that time back in the day when I read HUS and other such blogs and think about the implications of a sexless marriage.

  • mark

    Susan,

    Why did you delete my post to tvmunson?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mark

      Susan,

      Why did you delete my post to tvmunson?

      Because you’re a racist.

  • WarmWoman

    Speaking of sex drives, did any of you ladies have a much higher sex drive in your teeens? My sex drive was off the roof as a teenage girl, but slowed down once I got into long-term relationships in my 20’s. However, there was stress in these relationshps that may have hindered my sex drive.

    It seems that the stereotype is that women think about sex as they get older, but that doesn’t seem to be the case for me. I sure wish I had my teenage sex drive back, but I also wasn’t dating back then. When you don’t have sex, you think about it more maybe? Hmm..

  • WarmWoman

    I wanted to add that I thought that I would NEVER be that kind of woman that was too tired to have sex. But, it happened. Working long hours, relationship issues, insecurity over your body, family issues, chronic back pain….all can factor in your sex drive.

    I have found that porn/erotia can be a good sex-drive booster, but my last boyfriend didn’t even like me watching porn. Funny, because it’s usually the other way around! :P When I break up with someone and am single again ,I also notice my sex drive gets higher. It’s weird.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    mark,
    Because you said Africans are a primitive race. That shit doesn’t fly around here (and I have a friend from Kenya who would bite your head off for saying that).

    WarmWoman,
    Weird, I am the opposite. Once I lost my virginity a year ago, sex drive went through the roof. Before, all the other stuff was fun and cool but I would’ve rather just cuddled. Yeah not anymore.

  • SayWhaat

    @ WarmWoman:

    I am perpetually single and my sex drive is high.

    Shoot me.

  • WarmWoman

    SayWhaat-Are you a man or a woman? I read a study saying that women’s sex drives increase when they’re in relationships, but it hasn’t been the case for me.

    Olive- I hit puberty earlier than other girls as a kid. So, maybe I went through my peak and am now settling down. I will be 30 in a few years, so maybe it will go up again!

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    WarmWoman,
    IDK, I hit puberty pretty early too (small girls often do, they stop growing sooner). Who knows, I guess we’re all just different.

    mark,

    Are you able to state that in scientific parlance?

    State what, that Africans are not a primitive race, or that your post got kicked because of what you said? I know for a fact Susan does not tolerate racism, she’s said it many times to others, so that’s why your post got killed.

    Not here to argue with you about the merits of “racism.” It’s clear that no amount of arguing will change your mind anyway.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #734 susan

    “It is simple to recognize that when a person cheats on a spouse, they have violated a contract. It’s also not debatable. It is also simple to recognize that the contract is rendered invalid by that violation of deceit and betrayal.”

    susan you are thinking with your heart, not with your head.

    i know cheating is a very touchy subject. it is scary and it is threatening. it brings up a lot of emotions. if you think about it, for married people — married people who LOVE the comfort and security that marriage brings — the two scariest thing have to be death and cheating. nothing is more threatening to the peace and love of a marriage.

    so i’m with you. cheating is fucked up. cheating is a violation of trust, a breach of contract, etc.

    but so then what? so then all these cheating men, all these cheating men who cheat on their wives, get divorced, and then abandon their kids — what are they, monsters? emotional criminals? sociopaths?

    i know that’s the cultural meme out there. men are pigs. men are gross. men can’t be trusted. men are assholes. yeah, i get it.

    but is it true?

    i tried to call out the brilliant ben casnocha on this meme, but he didn’t bite:

    http://ben.casnocha.com/2011/11/things-men-will-never-understand-about-women.html#comment-6a00d8341c85c753ef015437bd6da5970c

    susan, there are A LOT of great men out there. you know, you seemed to have married one. but it also seems that you also work hard at your relationship, and by that i mean sexually.

    men are very sexually. men need sex constantly, in a way women will never understand. we need it like air and like food. daily. every. day. horny. every. freaking. day.

    and some women are kind and loving and “take care” of their men — and some don’t.

    you might think this story is exaggerated, but it’s not.

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/the-ultimate-shit-test-marriage/

    here’s an excerpt:

    “Think that you’ll start having sex again after buying that ridiculous fucking rock? Dream on – it gets WORSE. You’ll be lucky to get laid on your birthday from now on. And when you do get laid it will SUCK. The term “doggystyle” will be like a fucking cuss word in your house. Anything cool and interesting that ever happened in your bedroom will be a long lost memory.”

    so when you say — again, very conveniently — that whoever cheats has violated a contract, and should pay through the nose — well i reply, it’s not so simple.

    i mean, i am not a lawyer or anything, but aren’t there terms for crimes committed that actually have “mitigating circumstances” or something — things like crimes of passion, or entrapment, or self defense, all these things.

    many times, things are not so simple, and the law attempts to take this into account, and reflect the complex nature of situations.

    i am not trying to make excuses for men, i am just trying to help women — especially young women on this blog, the ones whose views are still being shaped — trying to help them see that men are also out there seeking love, seeking marriage, seeking a family, seeking long term joy and companionship — we are people too! we are not just cads and jerks and wimps and losers! — and that women need to be aware of our incredible constant need for sex, and need to help us stay satiated.

    cause if a man is not sexually satiated, trouble is bound to happen.

    and like it or not, that IS a woman’s problem.

    and if a man cheats, and she blows up the entire family over it, and makes her kids hate their father, and takes them away from him — there IS fallout from that.

    it is easy to hate a cheating husband, and the law is definitely on the side of the woman now, and yeah, i am sure revenge is sweet, but when divorce happens — with kids, i mean — everybody ends up a loser.

    everybody suffers.

    that is why i recommend marry +10 years , or maybe more realistically, +7 to +10 years, and give your husband the occasional threesome, maybe once on his bday, and once on valentine’s — AND EVERYONE IS HAPPY.

    rivelino saves the day once again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @rivelino

      “Think that you’ll start having sex again after buying that ridiculous fucking rock? Dream on – it gets WORSE. You’ll be lucky to get laid on your birthday from now on. And when you do get laid it will SUCK. The term “doggystyle” will be like a fucking cuss word in your house. Anything cool and interesting that ever happened in your bedroom will be a long lost memory.”

      Is that Heartiste’s experience? Was he engaged? Because that isn’t how it went for me. We never missed a day until I had a c-section, and that was five years in. The sex is cool and interesting still. Roissy’s red pill is actually a ginormous malignant tumor.

      that is why i recommend marry +10 years , or maybe more realistically, +7 to +10 years, and give your husband the occasional threesome, maybe once on his bday, and once on valentine’s — AND EVERYONE IS HAPPY.

      What a load of crap. As I recall, threesomes played a role in the ending of your own marriage.

      rivelino saves the day once again.

      Dream on, fool.

  • SayWhaat

    @ WarmWoman:

    “SayWhaat-Are you a man or a woman?”

    HAHAHA oof. I’m a 22yo woman. Do I sound masculine on these threads? Now you really must shoot me! XD

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #736 warmwoman

    “My sex drive was off the roof as a teenage girl, but slowed down once I got into long-term relationships in my 20′s”

    “When I break up with someone and am single again ,I also notice my sex drive gets higher. ”

    sex in relationships is TOUGH. women get all comfortable and cozy, and less sexual — i think we can confidently state this as a fact — and men get antsy and still are horny and start thinking about variety.

    it’s like god didn’t want couples to stay together for 40 years.

  • WarmWoman

    No saywhaat–I thought you were a woman when you responded to me, but just wanted to make sure.

    Rivelino-Familiarity is a good explanation. All of us get very excited when we meet someone new, but familiarity can tone down the lust. One of my ex-boyfriends said “When you know you can get sex easily, it’s not as exciting.”

  • Anna

    @ Rivelino
    I think your post on cheating contains a lot of argumentation which is valid in itself and some cliches but doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
    What I can take from it is:
    – I agree that cheating is bad and can ruin a marriage and a family. Cheating is fucked up. But does that make men pigs? Not all men are pigs. There are a lot of great men out there.

    Not a whole lot of things in there I haven’t heard before. Susan has never said all men are pigs. What the majority of women here is saying is that men who cheat are pigs. Of course there are a lot of good men out there. Those who don’t cheat. Clear enough?

    It’s easy to go down the anti-feminist road with the “men hatred these days”. Majority of women do want to get married, they do get married if they meet someone and they do go on dates, which means they like men and they are actually quite optimistic. I’m surprised women aren’t more cynical than they are, considering how many have been humped and dumped or cheated on.

    “and if a man cheats, and she blows up the entire family over it, and makes her kids hate their father, and takes them away from him — there IS fallout from that.” “Everybody suffers”.
    Are you saying this to make women more aware of the possible consequences of cheating? I can assure you, we know. I am guessing your alternative is to stay with the cheating husband? (Or in the short-sighted mans view: have more sex with him so he doesn’t cheat in the first place. As I pointed out, that is not the case, men in happy relationships cheat too, even if they get laid on a regular basis). To spend the rest of your life with a man you can barely look in the eyes? I will not raise my children with a man with no spine or moral compass. That’s just the way it is. Perhaps easier for me to say as I have inheritance and can support myself and children without a man, but I would nevertheless give the same advice to a woman in an unfortunate financial situation.

    Most people have several long-term relationships before they get married. Hopefully not with the same type of woman all over again, you will experience that women come with different personalities, several levels of sex drive. Some women will want sex every day, even 3 years into a relationship, other don’t have the energy. If you are incapable of finding a woman that is right for you, or if no woman want to have sex with you often and experimental enough (first of all, recognize the possibility that maybe you are not a person women love to have sex with), consider whether you are actually the marrying kind. I have all possible respect for a man that recognizes that he is not suited for breeding and remains an eternal bachelor.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Susan

    I forgot which post, but the one where you talked about the divorce experiences in your clique (I am using the term broadly; I mean something like milieu). I am surprised, and impressed. It sounds like you Boston brahmins (I know it’s unfair, probably inaccurate, but I’ve waited my whole life to write that I really have0 avoided the “lemon tart” trade-in. That is really something, and worthy of an exposition by you. Why? If I’m going to rethink my opinion of you chardonnay-brie-andgodknows I’m entitled to an explanation.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #749 anna

    “What the majority of women here is saying is that men who cheat are pigs. Of course there are a lot of good men out there. Those who don’t cheat. Clear enough?”

    anna,

    i used to also be very idealistic — and rigid — in my 20s.

    as i grew older, i realized that life is rarely so simple.

    not to open a whole other can of worms, but i’ve been trying to think of a good example of when “a crime is not a crim”e, if you know what i mean, and this is the best example that finally came to me:

    when lorena bobbit chopped off her husband’s cock, was that a despicable crime, should she have gone to jail for 20 years or whatever?

    OR

    or was her crime somehow “justified” because her husband had abused her for x number of years?

    see what i am trying to say?

    so the husband cheats. he gets caught. is is that simple?

    or did his wife “abuse” him by not giving him sex for 2 years straight, by never sucking his dick, by ignoring his sexual advances and good behavior, to the point that he was so desperate for sexual affection, for FLESH, that he went and fucked some other girl.

    i know you are young, and life seems simple right now, but maybe one day you will see that things are rarely as simple as they seem to be.

    as for susan, she should know better. i guess it’s just all the feminist programming, takes years and years to undo.

    but i have faith.

  • WarmWoman

    Anna-” (first of all, recognize the possibility that maybe you are not a person women love to have sex with),”

    If a woman seems to have lost interest in sex, here are possible reasons

    1) She’s not happy in the relationship or she’s unhappy with how she’s being treated. As much as we women want to deny it, a lack of emotional intimacy and fighting contstantly can dampen your sexual attraction to the other person.

    2) She’s just plain not attracted to you, yet can get instantly turned on by some hot celebrity. Sadly, some women marry men that they’re not attracted to. Why? The reasons could be fear of being alone, feeling pressured by others to marry, or just craving stability.

    3) She needs help relaxing and getting into the mood. There are ways to do that.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    LORENA BOBBIT NOT GUILTY

    and there you go: woman cuts off a man’s cock, but she is found to be “not liable” for this violent action because of the external circumstances — meaning, since he had abused her in so many other ways, that basically, he deserved it!

    so the next time a man cheats on his wife, we have to think, maybe she deserved it?

    excerpt:

    She stated that her husband sexually, physically, and emotionally abused her during their marriage. She added that her husband flaunted his infidelities, and had forced her to have an abortion. Several witnesses provided testimony supporting her claims. Her defense attorneys maintained that John’s constant abuse caused Lorena to eventually “snap” as she was suffering from clinical depression and a possible bout of post traumatic stress disorder due to the abuse.

    However, when Lorena was arrested the night of June 23rd, she told the police, “He always have orgasm [sic], and he doesn’t wait for me to have orgasm. He’s selfish.” John Bobbitt denied the allegations of abuse; however, when he was cross-examined, his statements often conflicted with known facts, severely weakening the prosecution’s case.

    After seven hours of deliberation, the jury found Lorena not guilty due to insanity causing an irresistible impulse to sexually wound her husband. As a result, she could not be held liable for her actions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    check it out, the abuse that CAUSED HER to attack him:

    “Within days of the incident, domestic violence and feminist groups rallied around Lorena, citing the continuous abuse she suffered at the hands of her husband that caused her to attack him, albeit in an unusual and violent manner.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt

  • Anna

    @ Rivelino
    You’d be surprised to know how many people see life as simple as this: there is no excuse for cheating. Regardless of age.
    Say you are in a marriage of 10 years and your wife “has a headache” every time you suggest sex. Here are a few clues:
    – you can work at making yourself more attractive. Change your foul attitude. Become a person a woman would like to have sex with. Become more affectionate. Or see if there is something in her life that makes her too exhausted to think of sex.
    – Suggest some kind of couple / sex therapy.
    – Failing all, tell her you cannot keep living like this. See if anything changes, otherwise walk out.

    Cheating is going behind someone’s back. Avoiding solution or staying in a marriage for selfish reasons while possibly hurting your SO endlessly.

    There are many things in life that are complicated, cheating is not one of them. Focus your efforts on the REAL problems in life, and don’t cheat. Walk out of the marriage /relationship doesn’t work.

  • WarmWoman

    Rivelino, were you talking to me? While there’s a chance that John Bobbit may have been falsely acused, most abusers deny that they’ve abused in the first place.

    I don’t agree with her actions though. She could have just walked away and left. f the abuse she endured made her feel too helpless, there’s support and therapy to help with that.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #755 anna

    “otherwise walk out.”

    interesting you suggest that. i have heard so many men say that they would rather cheat than walk out on their wife and kids. basically, they love their kids and would rather “solve” the problem in a sneaky way, than just blow up their family.

    at the same time, your advice sounds really good, and you are right, lack of sex is more of an effect than a cause — and usually represents deeper issues in the marriage.

    so mature for such a little girl!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      i have heard so many men say that they would rather cheat than walk out on their wife and kids. basically, they love their kids and would rather “solve” the problem in a sneaky way, than just blow up their family.

      There is an expression for this:

      Having your cake and eating it too.

      You want to do right by your kids? Keep your dick in your pants.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #756 warm woman,

    with the bobbitt thing, all i was doing was giving an extreme example of how sometimes a violent action is committed, but determining who is truly “guilty” of that crime is not so easy, and how sometimes crimes are “justified” in a way.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Susan

    Let your husband know I flirt with you. A teensy weensy bit of jealousy, like a pinch of cinammon in a chili recipe, is a good thing in a relationship. And I mean pinch, in both; you barely want it to register at all. Chicks will pick it out of a chili usually, but guys won’t and it lifts it. My chili is a mostly beans (add garbanzo) and beef deal.
    Ref you remarks (way earlier) ’bout Bono, Sting, Macartney. Well, maybe. I thought Paul and Joanne Newman had the real deal, but then I heard her interviewed where she more or less said Paul got to go therapeutically off the leash (read that phrase somehwere) now and again. Same with George Harrison. Paul’s probably special (no woman who fucked him would keep her mouth shut anyway, so he probably goes with trad mono) but not sure ’bout the rest. Wouldn’t surprise me if they are allowed a certain interpretive license. Jus’ sayin’. I thought I read that after Bono comes off tour his wife does not let him home for a week or so because his head is so swelled. And look, I ain’t judging; those of us of untested virtue have no cause to.

    And there’s implicit sexism. I doubt a female star feels much validation if he bangs the studly set grip on her movie, roadie, whatever. I could be naive but getting notches on your belt more of a guy thing, or was in my day, which continues to recede into the black hole of accumulated years.

  • WarmWoman

    The article also says lorena had some issues to begin with, such as assaulting her mom. In my experience, most sexually abused people are more likely to harm themselves than harm someone else.

    Being abused is no excuse to harm someone else. I can have empathy if Lorena was abused, but her actions to deal with it were bizarre and grotesque.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    What I meant by my earlier comment was that, for me, the two distinct piles of men can both end up at the same destination.

    1. The guys that I am instantly physically attracted to intrigue me, but their personalities and merits have to warrant me dating them.

    2. The guys that I am not instantly physically attracted to often grow on me over a little bit of time. Their looks may be meh quality, but they often have killer personalities which draw me to them.

    I’ve met attractive guys who had great personalities and some that were walking train wrecks. I’ve also met average looking guys with great personalities and some that were also walking train wrecks.

    Ultimately, a guy’s personality is what seals the deal for me. A guy being physically attractive helps, but it isn’t the quality with the most weight attached to it.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    You’d be surprised to know how many people see life as simple as this: there is no excuse for cheating. Regardless of age.
    Say you are in a marriage of 10 years and your wife “has a headache” every time you suggest sex. Here are a few clues:
    – you can work at making yourself more attractive. Change your foul attitude. Become a person a woman would like to have sex with. Become more affectionate. Or see if there is something in her life that makes her too exhausted to think of sex.
    – Suggest some kind of couple / sex therapy.
    – Failing all, tell her you cannot keep living like this. See if anything changes, otherwise walk out.

    In other words, read Athol Kay lol.

    To be fair, I think there are things women can do to make themselves happier in their marriages too. It’s not just a guy’s responsibility to keep a woman faithful, attracted, and happy. It’s a woman’s responsibility as well. Too many women (read: feminists?) think women shouldn’t have responsibilities, and I think that’s a huge problem. I mean, I wouldn’t blame my husband for cheating if I didn’t have sex with him for 2 years.

  • http://facebook tvmunson

    @Lok

    What did this chick do re the interloper? When my (now) wife and I used to do the bar scene I’d come back to find some guy hitting on her. It’d take her less than 3 seconds to say “I’m with him-bye”-that’d be it. Did she try and guy not get it?

    Plus touching her is No Go City. Dude had to know that’s not cool and trouble will follow. I can’t fault your etiquette on this in any particular, plus his disparagement is such that filling the air with uppercuts is the only available response for a gentleman.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Ultimately, a guy’s personality is what seals the deal for me. A guy being physically attractive helps, but it isn’t the quality with the most weight attached to it.

    Cosign!

  • WarmWoman

    “To be fair, I think there are things women can do to make themselves happier in their marriages too. It’s not just a guy’s responsibility to keep a woman faithful, attracted, and happy. It’s a woman’s responsibility as well. Too many women (read: feminists?) think women shouldn’t have responsibilities, and I think that’s a huge problem. I mean, I wouldn’t blame my husband for cheating if I didn’t have sex with him for 2 years.

    Absolutely, Olive. If a woman feels like her sex drive is decreasing, find out why and what you can do. We women also need to look at how we’re treating ourselves. How can our man cherish us if we are down on ourselves, grumpy, needy, complaining, etc.

    Some of us look for the man to save us, but it just doesn’t work that way. We’re more in control of our happiness than we think.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #761 olive

    “I wouldn’t blame my husband for cheating if I didn’t have sex with him for 2 years.”

    thank you!

    susan, do you agree or disagree?

  • Anna

    @ Olive
    Please understand that this was a defense to the saying that women should “drain their husbands nuts regularly” too keep them from cheating and that lack of doggy style will naturally cause a man to sniff around.
    I believe 100% that everybody is responsible for their own happiness – you cannot possibly place the burden on another person to make you happy. that goes both ways – many women believe a man should “complete” them, in the same way as men believe women are responsible of regularly purchasing nice lingerie to keep the “spark alive” or responsible of making family life work and make sure the children are happy. As a general rule, if you’re not happy on your own, you won’t be long-term happy in a relationship. We’re on our own in the end (sorry – depressing).
    If my sex drive is non-existant, I know that something is wrong and I would want to solve that as much for my own sake as for my SO’s.
    Although we must make ourselves happy on our own, sex is here a difficult issue because it cannot (for a lifetime, at least) be done on your own. Surviving dry spells in a relationship is necessary at times – there will be days before and right after childbirth when sex is not happening, and a man should be able to deal with that without cheating. There are limits though, 6 months is more than a dry spell.

    I’d say something have to be drastically wrong in a relationship for it to pass 2 years without sex. I cannot help but wonder how a man can justify cheating with “we haven’t had sex for 2 years”. So in the past two years you have survived ok? You haven’t questioned the lack of intimacy and you haven’t considered that the relationship might be coming to an end? You just hung around, casually making the same lame approaches till you figured it’s been 2 years and that’s too much, so you decided to find someone else and go behind your wife’s back. It takes two to tango, but whoever cheats is automatically at fault. You haven’t even tried to participate in the tango – you left the area without letting your partner know and said “to hell with it”.
    After a few months of lack of sex, I would seek to solve it. If unsolvable, I’d end it. Case closed.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #766 anna

    “After a few months of lack of sex, I would seek to solve it. If unsolvable, I’d end it.”

    and the kids? what about the kids?

    “You just hung around, casually making the same lame approaches till you figured it’s been 2 years and that’s too much, ”

    not just hung around, most men — and most people — work really hard to pay the bills, and many husbands purposely seek to focus on their work when their home life is going well.

  • Anna

    I can add that there are probably many women out there in relationships/marriages who could “take one for the team” (the team being him) and try to make an effort. If you know it’s been long since you’ve had sex, take a shower, wax and polish nails, put on some soft porn and GET in the mood, if you weren’t to begin with. It’s probably what I would have done if I found myself in that situation.
    I just try to be as fair as possible and a bit future-oriented, because it’s unfair to speak for myself only when this mainly concerns women in a different situation than myself. I’m only 21 and have a high drive, and I’ve never been in a relationship long enough for the spark to run out (I suppose when I say “cut it if it’s not working”, it’s because it’s a practice I’m very familiar with myself”). It feels a bit easy and deluded to say that all women should aim to maintain the spark and have sex so and so often. I’m still at an age where sex is only fun and preparing for it is exciting. I have to take into account that this is way different for a 38 year old with 3 children under 10, always a bunch of dishes to do and a permanent pouch which makes sexy underwear unthinkable. And you should too.

  • Isabel

    Riv,

    basically, they love their kids and would rather “solve” the problem in a sneaky way, than just blow up their family.

    Or he could just man up and tell his wife to stop acting like a stroppy little cow? Jesus. You’re not solving anything by hiding in some other woman’s vagina – you’re just delaying the inevitable in the most hamsterific way possible. You may temporarily get your filling but your wife isn’t going to change, is she? Why would she? She’s just going to continue being the sexual equivalent of a dead frog for God knows how long, none the wiser, because you were too busy sidestepping to claim your rights as a husband. I admit that it’s entirely her fault for starting it but two wrongs don’t make a right.

    1. Determine whether there are any valid reasons explaining his wife’s sudden withdrawal. (Why would you randomly stop having sex with someone you love, ffs??)
    2. Resolve them.
    3. If there’s no valid reason (depression, childbirth, money worries etc) – candidly inform her that she’s failing at her wifely duties.
    4. Call someone, preferably Athol.
    5. Move on.

    1000. Cheat and risk the wellbeing of your family.

    If you actually *did* love your kids, you would do try to repair your marriage to the BEST of your abilities. If it fails, at least you can say that you tried and that she was a selfish and manipulative letdown. Running away, on the other hand, doesn’t require much effort.

  • http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Anna,
    I do agree with most of what you said. I often wonder, though, if it’s not just the sexual variety thing that drives a man to cheat. We had a discussion about cheating in another thread, and both Mike and Ted said that the only times they thought of cheating (both of them are now divorced, though neither of them cheated) were when they felt their wives didn’t want them. To me, that’s on the wife. Either A) don’t marry a guy just to settle down, or B) marry a guy to settle down, and then know that it’s your final decision, there’s no turning back.

    My mom once said something really weird to me: that sex isn’t very enjoyable for women. Not sure what that says about my parents’ relationship/sex life (and would rather not know, that’s TMI) but the fact that my dad has never cheated makes me think that 1) he’s completely miserable in his marriage, or 2) my mom sucks it up and sees it, kind of, as “her wifely duty.” Judging from my dad’s personality, I’m gonna guess option 2 is more likely. And that’s not a bad thing, IMO.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Isabel

    Or he could just man up and tell his wife to stop acting like a stroppy little cow? Jesus. You’re not solving anything by hiding in some other woman’s vagina – you’re just delaying the inevitable in the most hamsterific way possible.

    HAHAHAHAHA!!!! That quote just made my freaking day.

    I agree with everything you said in your post Isabel. It makes the most sense to………I don’t know, NOT wait until two sexless years have passed to try to fix the issue. If the amount of sex had becomes nonexistent, talk to her about it sooner rather than later. Try to figure out things that can be done to help the situation. If you have exhausted all options, move on. At least, at that point, you have tried beyond a reasonable doubt to fix the issue honestly.

  • OffTheCuff

    My mom once said something really weird to me: that sex isn’t very enjoyable for women.

    I like how she says “Women” instead of “her”. That’s a hoot – she’s gotta extrapolate her sexual failures to all of womankind. News flash: women, being capable of multiple orgasms, get a whole lot more pleasure than men ever can. There’s no way a guy can have an hour-long orgasm, but women sure can!

    They’re both really bad at sex. Hope you do better.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    I could be wrong, but it seems the discussions of late have been attracting a lot of XY chromosomes and invariably turn into sophomoric defenses of infidelity and/or non-monogamy. Is this the equivalent of sex-positive masculism? If so, perhaps your website needs to change its name : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I could be wrong, but it seems the discussions of late have been attracting a lot of XY chromosomes and invariably turn into sophomoric defenses of infidelity and/or non-monogamy. Is this the equivalent of sex-positive masculism? If so, perhaps your website needs to change its name : )

      Yes, in this thread we have the three stooges of infidelity and threesomes: Doug, Lokland and Rivelino. None married, two divorced. Giving advice on when it’s OK for men to cheat.

      I think this is a case of arrested development. Middle aged men sounding like 16 year olds.

  • WarmWoman

    “My mom once said something really weird to me: that sex isn’t very enjoyable for women. ”

    With all due respect, perhaps those that don’t enjoy it just haven’t found the clitoris. Depending on how sensitive your vagina is, perhaps you et don’t find intercourse that amazing. Understandable. But, I’ve yet to meet a woman that can’t feel sensations in the clitoris. That’s what it’s there for.

  • Sassy6519

    With all due respect, perhaps those that don’t enjoy it just haven’t found the clitoris. Depending on how sensitive your vagina is, perhaps you et don’t find intercourse that amazing. Understandable. But, I’ve yet to meet a woman that can’t feel sensations in the clitoris. That’s what it’s there for.

    Ditto. The amount of sensitivity women have with vaginal penetration only varies. Most women, however, need some form of clitoral stimulation to orgasm. It’s all about finding and doing the positions that involve penetration while also stimulating the clit (Ex: woman on top, coital alignment technique, etc).

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #769 isabel

    ” I admit that it’s entirely her fault for starting it”

    again, another thanks.

    that is my only point, or rather, my main point. susan just kept on saying that cheating was a simple, cut and dry affair. whoever cheats is at fault.

    all i was looking to do was show her that it isn’t all that simple. sort of like, “it takes two to cheat”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “it takes two to cheat”.

      No. This is self-serving moral equivalency. Cheating = deceit and broken trust. Cheating = risking family. Cheating = risking disease. Cheating = giving up, walking away, saying the relationship is over.

  • Doug1

    I though the abuse business in the Lorena Bobbit case at the time was probably bs, other than his flaunting his cheating on her. One of the reasons why is that it WASN’T what she first said to police when arrested. As well she had no record of ever having him arrested for it, or other solid evidence about it.

    As well given the domestic violence and abuse hysteria feminists were whipping up at the time to get VAWA passed, or right in the aftermath of that, don’t remember, it was such an obvious thing to make up that might get her off or at least greatly reduce any sentence. I mean feminists at the time were basically sending that message through the media. “He probably physically and emotionally abused her” was a big feminist and feminist journalist and columnist meme before she said anything about that iirc. Worked too.

  • http://rivelinoinspain.wordpress.com/ Rivelino

    #779 susan

    “For the record, I would like to state that a woman who refuses to have sex in a marriage has violated the marriage contract. It is no better than cheating in that it breaks the contract. I do not blame either party for getting sex elsewhere if a spouse has refused it. I have stated this before at HUS, but it’s relevant to this discussion.”

    awesome.

    my fault for not keeping up with HUS and not knowing your official position.

  • Doug1

    Isabel–

    1. Determine whether there are any valid reasons explaining his wife’s sudden withdrawal. (Why would you randomly stop having sex with someone you love, ffs??)
    2. Resolve them.
    3. If there’s no valid reason (depression, childbirth, money worries etc) – candidly inform her that she’s failing at her wifely duties.
    4. Call someone, preferably Athol.
    5. Move on.

    1000. Cheat and risk the wellbeing of your family.

    If you actually *did* love your kids, you would do try to repair your marriage to the BEST of your abilities. If it fails, at least you can say that you tried and that she was a selfish and manipulative letdown. Running away, on the other hand, doesn’t require much effort.

    It’s usually not sudden buy a gradual lessening of her desire for sex from what I read. Well it can be sudden for many women after giving birth. You gotta wait 6-8 weeks for it to heal and pull together down there but then their no impediment to having sex – except often her hormones, esp. if she’s breast feeding a lot.

    Your steps are good though. They from Athol I think. The guy having gone to nice guy or put on too much weight, go out of shape can be contributing. Her gaining too much weight can as well, for her drive and sexual self confidence as well as his attraction.

    But anyway after working those thing rather than just going out and behind her back cheating, or asking for a divorce esp. if they have young kids, I’d tend to say to her than you really need more sex, and if you can’t get it from her, if she won’t make more of an effort and simply do start doing a couple of times a week at least to keep the marriage strong (with it hopefully being pleasurable to her once she begins le