Today’s post is a Trifecta of Doom.
I. Marriage continues its steep decline.
Today’s Economix blog at the New York Times covers the latest study on marriage from the Pew Research center in Older to Wed, If They Marry at All. Using the 2010 census, researchers found that the average age at marriage has risen again, to 26.5 years for women and 28.7 years for men. This is not unique to the U.S. In the last thirty years, the average female age at first marriage has increased in 75 of 77 countries that were studied.
The number of marriages is also down significantly, down 10% in the last two years:
It’s not just a matter of delay either. Check this out:
Some have claimed the economy is the culprit but Wharton economist Justin Wolfers had this to say in 2010:
You’ve probably heard the latest marriage narrative: With the recession upon us, young lovers can’t afford to marry. As appealing as this story is, it has one problem: It’s not true. In fact, the marriage rate appears amazingly insensitive to the business cycle.
There is a rise in cohabitation that could well be related to the Great Recession, because couples are trying to save money by living together. Many of them eventually will marry.
The biggest drop has been in the 18-24 age group, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. The mid-20s is the sweet spot for the lowest odds of divorce, according to some researchers.
Late professor Norval Glenn of UT Austin, in his published study drawing from five different American data sets,
explained:
The greatest…likelihood of being in an intact marriage of the highest quality is among those who married at age 22-25. The findings of this study do indicate that for most persons, little or nothing in the way of marital success is likely to be gained by deliberately delaying marriage beyond the midtwenties.
Paul Amato of Penn State explains further:
Once people enter their early to mid-twenties, the risk of divorce is reduced. Indeed, people who postpone marriage until their thirties face a dwindling supply of potential partners – a situation that may increase the likelihood of forming unions with partners who are not good marriage material. In other words, marrying “too late” may increase the risk of having a troubled relationship.
W. Bradford Wilcox at UVA agrees:
Couples who marry in their mid-twenties tend to do best, when you combine a consideration of quality and stability.
II. The college sex ratio predicts a dramatic erosion in marriage rates over the next generation among the educated.
At first glance, the news is less alarming for the college educated, if not for society as a whole. The share of college educated individuals currently married is 64%, down 16% from 1960. In contrast, only 47% of those with a high school education are currently married, down 35% since 1960. Marriage has been a more stable institution among the college educated population.
That cannot last. The current sex ratio nationwide in American colleges and universities is 57% female, 43% male, and the gap is widening. This means that among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men. Let me say that again.
Among today’s college graduates, 25% of women will not marry college educated men.
That estimate is actually rosy because it assumes that men will want to marry in equal numbers to women. The data was not analyzed by sex, but in an era of misandrist family law that’s a dubious claim.
Of course, women may choose to marry men with less education than themselves, but this seems unlikely to happen in large numbers for several reasons:
- Women generally prefer men with equal or higher status.
- Men generally prefer women with equal or lower status.
- Society is stratified by socioeconomic status.
III. Tick Tock Biological Clock
Despite progressive sex ed curricula in most areas of the country, adult women today are seriously misinformed about the state of their ovaries.
During a recent story that aired on NPR one infertile woman in her early 40s couldn’t understand it. She insisted that she works out regularly, does yoga, even has a personal trainer. She eats well and is healthy. She never knew that her ovaries were becoming less productive in spite of those measures.
A recent survey found that women dramatically underestimate how much fertility declines with age. They estimated that a 30 year-old had an 80% chance of getting pregnant in one try. The real likelihood is 30%. They also thought a 40 year-old woman would have a 40% success rate, while those odds are less than 10%.
Women are surprised to learn this information and they’re angry about it. One woman had this to say about her 10 year struggle to conceive:
I just feel like it’s something else that they lump onto women that we have no control over. You tell us, “Oh, your fertile years rapidly decline in your mid-20s.” Well, if I’m not dating anyone, and I want to have a family, what is that information going to do for me?
Barbara Collura heads the National Infertility Association. She says the first thing women say is “Why didn’t anybody tell me this?”
Let’s be honest, women don’t want to hear that they can’t have it all. We can have a great job, we can have a master’s degree, we don’t need to worry about child-bearing because that’s something that will come. And when it doesn’t happen, women are really angry.
So why aren’t women getting the message? How can women with master’s degrees have such a poor understanding of their own bodies? Three guesses, the first two don’t count.
“A decade ago, a campaign by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine sparked a vicious backlash. Ads on public buses in several big cities featured a baby bottle shaped like an hourglass, to warn women their time was running out. But women’s rights groups called it a scare tactic that left women feeling pressured and guilty.”
So now they’re feeling barren and depressed instead.
The prognosis for marriage is grim. We need to take our heads out of the sand and speak the truth about this issue. It’s too late for the generation of women in their 30s and 40s today. Those of you in your 20s can have marriage and a family if you want it, but you can’t have it all. My generation of feminists lied to you about that.
You have some tough choices to make. What’s more important, career or family? When you think about graduate school, are you considering the full range of costs and benefits, including potentially delaying marriage into your 30s? Are you open to meeting your life partner in your early 20s, and filtering out men you know aren’t husband material?
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Doug,
So let me explain where I’m at. I think you’re an asshole. That’s why I give you a hard time. I avoid the manosphere to avoid assholes like you. I come here because I like the fact that men and women can discuss relationships and the SMP together, and for the most part, cooperatively. But I think you’re a snotty, bitter little dick head that sort of ruins that. If me trying to get rid of you makes me a white knight, then hell yes I’m a white knight.
@ Emily
I’ve come across different studies and articles relating to fertility, onset of menarche (menstruation) and the relation to BMI. I honestly would have to conduct a search to find the actual studies but there are lots of articles available, I hope that starts you off.
http://attainfertility.com/article/ideal-fertility-weight
http://www.arcfertility.com/Articles/Protecting-Fertility.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100628111848.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infertility
http://fertilefood.net/?page_id=52
BMI and successful IVF procedures
http://www.advancedfertility.com/weight.htm
Susan–
I haven’t been the first to bring it up since the ginormously long thread about the nature of male sexuality. Instead Jesus Mahoney has continuous made personal attacking reference to my unwillingness to commit (not true), my low self esteem slut girl friend, and my lack of character all as very thinly veiled references to it. Yeah then I have responded, eventually, to that.
Another factor related to BMI that’s often overlooked — the reason girls are hitting puberty earlier than in the past.
There’s mention of hormones in our food supply causing girls to develop earlier, but I think it’s more likely caused by being overweight.
African-Americans have a higher obesity rate than other groups, so it makes sense that AA girls would get their 1st periods at an earlier age than other girls. Generally, girls that are heavy hit puberty earlier than slim girls.
@Doug1
#1 refers to contemporary sexual mores – supply and demand of sex in the SMP. #2 follows in part from #1. Why buy the cow, etc. Marriage is a huge commitment, and if a man can get all of the benefits of the arrangement without entering into a binding legal contract, why wouldn’t he prefer that? There was a time when unmarried men got fewer promotions, were suspected of being gay, and a variety of other things. No longer. There are far fewer incentives to marry today. #3, the financial risk of divorce, is included as a benefit of cohabiting, but by no means the only benefit.
anonymous is right about the current generation having watched their own parents divorce. Your link is ten years old, so that fits with the peak of the divorce rate, which has since lowered considerably. Research has shown that college kids of divorced parents are more likely to prefer hooking up and avoid relationships.
The larger point on this post/thread about declining marriage rates and threats to getting married, is that fear of the financial effects (and loss of kids) of American divorce is a MAJOR reason for young men being reluctant to get married, that Rutgers study showed.
How about stopping having your head in the sand about that girls? Maybe some law changes would help. Maybe you’re being receptive to the kind of prenup I’ve outlined would help, as Sassy said she would be?
Doug,
Hmmm let’s see what Mike C said:
He’s been heard, and I respect his opinion. I don’t have much to say in reply, but I did read his post. Very few women have come back at him to wage “female slap fest” war on him. I certainly didn’t.
But I do skip over the other endless debate posts about divorce laws. If it makes you feel better, I haven’t been paying attention to Jhane’s or Susan’s responses about divorce laws either.
For the record, Mike C didn’t alienate me by siding with you. I actually respect him as well, and the only way he could alienate me is by becoming a broken record. Also Lokland and Rivelino have both sided with you, and I don’t have problems with either of them. So really, that leaves one person who irritates me…
At the Feminine Beauty site I linked to, which you obviously haven’t read, there’s a whole piece about Playboy. Hugh Hefner took centerfolds from feminine and curvaceous to boyish and high WHR. The author of the site implies that HH likes his boys…
Im firmly sidind with Doug1.
I havent read anything on this thread though.
Susan–
Men are only “buy” the cow because of 3. Most men who live together with a woman who make a lot more than she does pay more than half the expenses on stuff like rent/mortgage and utilities, meals out, etc., too, like married guys. So they’re both “buy” the “cow” temporarily, but the married guy is stuck with her purchase if she gets bored with sex with him, wants NRE/new love, and divorces him, and goes on the search on his financial back, stealing the kids from him.
Agree. Commitment in open is less than 100%. Commitment of M > 100%, sadly.
Yohami,
The thread’s not really worth the effort. You’ve been scarce, I think. How’ve you been?
@Doug1
Jesus is no white knight. That’s just MRA shaming language for men who don’t see it your way. Next you’ll be calling him a mangina.
anonymous,
That’s a really interesting theory. I’m currently getting my Masters in Public Health, and my main research interest these days is obesity in women and children. I’ve never read a study suggesting that obesity leads to early puberty, but I’ll certainly look it up.
I would add that the reason African Americans are more obese has a lot to do with socioeconomic status and segregated neighborhoods. It’s been found in numerous studies that grocery stores with “healthy options” are, on average, closer to predominantly white neighborhoods than predominantly black neighborhoods, while the opposite can be said for fast food stores. In addition, many cheap foods are highly processed, while fruits and vegetables are expensive.
So perhaps it’s not that obesity leads to early puberty, but obesity is an indicator of food choices, and highly processed foods often contain hormones (for example, processed meat, which is also very fatty).
Reluctantly cosign.
Susan: ” @anonymous
5’4″ (average ht.) = ~ 128 lbs.
5′ 9″ (like a typical runway model) = ~149 lbs
——–
“Most runway models are 5’9″ or taller and weigh less than 128. I know one Ford Model who is 5’10″ and when she first got to Ford they told her she had to lose 10 lbs. – she was 128. Apparently, they thought her hips looked too squishy.”
——————————-
> Yes, 5′ 9″ is the minimum ht. for runway, but most of the women hover around 5′ 9″ and 5′ 10″, with a smaller percentage closer to 6′.
Yes, they’re all underweight.
Actresses are generally at healthier wts. than models.
Olive–
You never attacked me, nor I you, around here or elsewhere until I revealed my open relationship on the thread about the nature of male sexuality, and men’s great desire for variety, even when in happy relationships after awhile. That’s obviously why you are here, even when what I’m commenting about after awhile is the unfairness of what Kobe Bryant faces under American divorce law, a subject someone else brought up.
The funny thing is that aside from his defense of cheaters, and his rabid insistence on prenups (I’m not against them for others, just for myself), I actually agree with most of what Doug says. The divorce laws are unfair. I don’t care if cheaters get screwed, but he’s right: divorce laws are unfair. I just think it’s time to shut up and move on.
That’s cool. You haven’t alienated me, as Doug suggests.
The decline in marriage is due to a perfect storm of legislation detrimental to men when it comes to marriage, as well as government policies impeding men from going to college, or getting jobs. Of course, the fact that these days I could put a live-in girl-friend on my health-care and not have her pay the higher-taxes I have to pay, nor do I have to worry about all of the legal hassles of breaking up, makes non-marriage VERY attractive to me. Couple that to all of the women looking for any man who theoretically could offer them what they want, and you have the ideal situation for men who are successful – they have plenty of choices so marriage is foolish while they have lots of opportunities.
If you couple the above with the availability of women, and the number of men who have given up on fighting all of the hurdles they have to over-come, is it hard to understand that they are getting the message?
Marriage is for chumps. It really is that simple. Don’ t blame men for seeing marriage as an institution benefiting women to the detriment of men – it is. It’s just that it is more obvious today then ever before. What does marriage offer to a man? Name one thing he can’t get without it?
And if you can come up with one thing, I can come up with dozens of reasons not to marry. That is why men aren’t marrying – there is no reason to…
Anonymous–
That may be a contributing factor and probably is, but there’s a ton of scientific evidence that most AA’s including the non obese simply mature somewhat faster in a lot of ways, including in brain size, stature, and so on than whites/Euro ancestry people, or NE Asians. Don’t know about other groups on that.
NE Asians mature somewhat more slowly than whites and also exhibit a good bit of neoteny .
So I’m 5’3 and around 107 lbs, putting me at 19 BMI. I was around this weight last two times I got pregnant. I think I’m not really at risk for being underweight, but my body fat % seems to be under 20%.
Should I be putting on more weight? As an aside I lift light weights daily, doing 5 sets of 20, as well as 20 push-ups and sit-ups. My blood pressure tends to run lowish, and my insulin levels are good.
Jesus–
I haven’t defended cheating men. I’ve agreed that it’s a betrayal, dishonest, hurts trust badly, and therefor hurts marriages. I have said that an instance or two of male cheating is not worth American women blowing up the marriage over, and mostly depriving their young kids of their dad and his fathering role, and massively financially punishing him, if he’s a strong earner or has earned into being rich. Not the same thing as defending cheating men.
I’ve also said it’s grossly unfair that cheating women in the typical hypergamous American case aren’t punished at all under current law and social mores; instead her non cheating husband, and her kids are. Which none of the girls around here want to talk about, it seems.
Heh, I can assure you that story is true. Could hardly believe it while it was happening. Crazy shit happens, many girls are crafty little cheaters, and this dude is one of those guys who doesn’t have a clue.
Then again, there are a lot of dudes out there who don’t have a clue.
Part of the red pill experience is realizing that not every girl is an angel, and in many cases men who learn game, how to read girls, etc, can look back and recognize the times they were being cheated on but were either willfully ignorant or completely clueless.
That is defending male cheating.
@Susan
“In general, you three defend a promiscuous lifestyle, yet none of you have the lifestyle a single reader here wants, at least to the best of my knowledge. So stop trying to sell it here – there are no buyers.”
Rivelino already confessed to lying about some of his bangs on his blog. Apparently the 19 year old was an invention of his. So he defends a promiscuous lifestyle but he doesn’t even have that lifestyle, in reality.
Probably because we don’t cheat.
I still dont know what the thread is about but it seems to be about cheating and divorce laws?
Cheating is bad, because lying is bad, and breaking agreements in the dark is bad. bad mkay?
Being truth is good, being in the open is good, which means having sex with other people as long as its in the open and its part of the agreement, is good, mkay?
In my personal life I havent mixed loving relationships with fucking around, because I feel it´s going to mess up my own feelings. I´d rather end the relationship if I want to fuck other girls. But, say I really wanted to fuck some girl and Im in a relationship? I´d fuck her, in the open. If my girlfriend wants to call it quits so be it.
And divorce laws. I get the “get half of my money” is fair when the couple has been working with a team and its like a company with shared assets. But. Marriages are not like that. Not bryant´s, not any marriage I know especially when there are not kids involved.
If you want money work your own money. Sugah.
Jesus Mahoney—
The reason I strongly counsel young guys and divorced guys contemplating remarriage to get prenups of the kind I recommend to try to counter some of that unfairness in American divorce laws, obviously. They’ll still the highest in the world to my knowledge and I’ve done some looking child support=also stealth alimony as a percentage of their AFTER tax income, and lose much time with their kids, but at leas that will be offset somewhat by no (or greatly reduced depending on state court made law re: prenups) alimony and more or less proportionate to income property settlement. Well I’ve said I’d give her half the equity in the principal residence by jointly signing the deed and mortgage. I.e., no divorce theft there at least.
Doug,
Like I said, I’ve got nothing against prenups for other people, though I wouldn’t sign one myself. And, if I ever have a daughter, I’ll be wary of her getting involved in a marriage that includes a prenup.
@902
Christ, Jesus, you’re in a bad mood, esp. considering you’ve got a birthday coming up.
I had a post about “threesomes”, and I accidentally deleted it(!), so now it will be even more out of sequence. I don’t see how a 3some with 2 chicks and a guy will ever work. I mean, 2 gals nod to each other in passing on the street and they take in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 gigabytes of info (like her earrings, slutty shoes, little heavy ’round the middle, I’ve see that blouse) and now you’re going to strip them and have at some hapless dude(?)-he’ll be lucky if they even see him. And this will be true if the women know each other or don’t-the only diff will be a slight variation of the inter-female complexity of interest and self-regarding competition which is both obscure and deadly..
I picture it this way:
female #1″Wow, I like that top.”
#2 “It was on sale at Eve Arden. I love your matching bra and panties ( a fem fave-status conscious even when no one can see it). Victoria’s Secret?”
#1″ NO, MACY’S! 3 for one…”
Ok you get it. Meanwhile dorkus is sitting there thinking he’s the entree, when he ain’t even the goddamn butter dish. Once they strip, the real appraisal begins, ever lump, sag, and alternatively tightness, smoothness etc. noted and catalogued, whether the braziilian is up to date or the hedge needs trimming, perfume, observations of sanitary hygiene with corresponding insecurity re same-and that’s just the appearances. Active sex will be even more challenging to their feminine brio, and I cannot even begin to fathom what would go on but I can say categorically the male’s involvement, concerns, interest and needs would not just take a backseat, they would be hitchhiking on the loney road.
No, 2 gals one guy 3somes should be relegated to subtitled French arthouse movies, the type I can barely sit through even with my 4th glass of chardonnay, the type I’m informed (usually) is an attempt to address issues of existentialism, which I don’t understand but appears to involve couples on Vespas driving through dreary French backstreets, whence to cafes where they engage in dolorous conversations while desultorily emitting clouds of cigarette smoke, and just at the point where I’m about to face plant into the back of the chair ahead of me bam! we get a 3some sex scene, two guys at the chick, she pale, wan in the junkie style the French seem to prefer, she naked, prone, her smallish but well presented tits very dark at the nipples, and I engage in the only “existential” issue I have as she gets pounded into the mattress, her face grimacing but yet NOT biting the headboard, so I have to wonder is she experiencing really vehement “doggy” style intercourse or is her paramour in fact getting into the alimentary pantry, this interlude all too brief as the sex scene is completed and it’s back to the Vespa, streets, cafes, whatever plot conflict issues we are addressing having been resolved, the aforesaid conflict apparently revolving around 2 horny French guys wanting to butt bang a pretty French girl, which is still better than the British version of this same type of movie which always harkens back to the days when limeys had mansions, estates and servants, and the only (implied) sex involves umbrella handles and large, bleary-eyed dogs.
2 guys and a chick would of course work, the natural solipsism and self-centeredness of the males would mean once one or the other “got off” he’d get a sandwich (not a euphemism) and turn on the game.From the woman’s (emotional) standpoint, if not her sexual one, 0 + 0=0.
Susan–
I’m into the gaming side or occasional MRA, mostly around American divorce laws. I don’t like most primarily MRA sites, they tend to be far to bitter. I do like one’s that mix it up with game and understand game, like Dalrock’s pro marriage, anti divorce site.
Jesus has most definitely been white knight to get girl’s applause at his providing a male voice in attacking me, over my open thing, really, but he uses thinly veiled other insults like lack of character, unwilling and unable to commit, my gf M has low self esteem and is a slut, and so on.
@Doc
Men are marrying in large numbers, we’re discussing a decline. Keep it in perspective.
1. A healthy and loving environment for raising children.
2. A reason for both parties to stick around and work at it when the going gets rough. Most cohabitations end with a breakup.
oop mistake-that’s supposed to read (par #5)
“No, 3somes should be relegated”
Yes it is.
@ anonymous
Thank you for the links!
I’m really curious about the recommendation for 149 lbs as a minimum weight for somebody who’s 5’9. My weight is close to that and I’m about 5’10. Admittedly I have to work to keep my weight there, but I don’t look malnourished or anything.
I probably nitpicking here, but please let me know if you happen to stumble across the study/charts that you got that from. (But if you don’t want to hunt for it, that’s fine.)
I’m pretty sure this isn’t true. I’m not shy about stating my opinion when it’s unpopular among the women here. I’ve done it many times. I just think you’re an asshole. I know that’s hard for you to believe, but it’s true.
This debate pretty much confirms what I love about Jesus Mahoney.
Seriously, Doug is obnoxious. He’s pompous and self important and no one cares. Also, for a PUA, the way he hits on women in the sphere is creepy and embarrassing, and roissy’s called him out on it before (years ago).
The “white knight” charge is pretty tired. All it seems to mean is “you don’t agree with me.”
Yes, I am aware this post marks me as a white knight. I was called that the very first day I showed up at Dalrock’s and have been called it here by Doug as well.
Jesus’ only flaw that I can see is that he misunderstands the will to power, which is cool. If we’re both white knights, then I am happy to be a white knight, whatever the hell it actually is.
@Susan #934
Marriage as the optimal environment for raising children-agree. As for cohabitation=breakup, I see it as sort of a “self select out”. People who smoke marijuana are likelier to use harder drugs because the type of rules-defying if-I-can’t-eat-it-or-fuck-it-I’ll-kill-it is found in the group more likely to smoke dope (and drink coffee and smoke cigarettes and use alcohol). Cohabitators will include a lot of commitment-phobic males who only commit to their own dick ‘cuz it’s attached. The effect is not the cause, and distinguishing between the 2 is not easy, and should not be done in a facile manner IMO (I’m not necessarily acccusing of that BTW).
Olive—
That’s just not true, studies have shown that youngish women in their thirties on down in America and Britain cheat almost as much as guys do, and some show more. Women are just a lot better at hiding them, in part because men don’t want to suspect their spouses, whereas women are told by our culture to be super hawks on it, to the point of ignoring his privacy, reading his email without his permission, and so on. Guys usually don’t do that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1211104/Think-men-unfaithful-sex-A-study-shows-WOMEN-biggest-cheats–theyre-just-better-lying-it.html
Doug, of course women cheat – a few of them cheat a lot -, but I think Olive was saying that she and the girls commenting here dont cheat.
btw, is there a different term for white knighting on behalf of a dude? fabulous white knight?
@FFY
I have no trouble believing a skank would cheat on her bf during a beer run with you. You’ve often referred to all the “good girls” you get with. Yikes.
Here’s what’s off about your story:
1. You seem like a bright enough guy, but only someone with mental disabilities would have rawdogged that chick.
2. According to your account, you banged her for 70 minutes outdoors. Now, let me tell you something about women. We don’t want to go 70 minutes, not even on a featherbed with soft lighting and plenty of lube. I believe the duration women prefer for actual intercourse is 18 minutes, IIRC. This is partly why hookup sex sucks for women, by the way – whiskey dick means you guys go numb and can’t get the job done. Anyway, what you described is bad sex. She was probably raw for days. (I notice that you don’t mention her pleasure, which is the most believable part of your account.)
3. You jizzed down the slide for lulz. I take it to mean that you were fucking on the small platform at the top of the ladder? About 2 and a half feet square?
4. After this performance, she didn’t send your sorry ass home? It’s hard to imagine she would have invited you in after that.
5. After banging this ho, why would you return to the patio and keep drinking with the bf? Who is twisted enough to make small talk with the guy he cuckolds ten minutes after the fact?
6. Who believes that it takes an hour and a half on a Wednesday night to find beer? Unless you live in the boonies, there would have been half a dozen places to buy beer within 2 miles. Again, I can only imagine severe mental defects – maybe an IQ of 75 or so?
And that is why your story does not hold up.
anonymous– ” than it has ANYTHING to do with young men being well-versed about divorce laws.”
Doug: ” Being well versed isn’t the issue with reluctance to marry. It’s the sense that they’re unfair from looking around them and sometimes reading on the net. You did notice the word “financial”, didn’t you??”
I DID miss the word “financial.”
I’d like to find the actual study (even though it’s from a decade ago)
to see if they elaborate on those points.
@Astrid
Welcome, that’s interesting but I’m not surprised. I’m beginning to think at least half of this crap is invented. A lot of it doesn’t pass the smell test.
Precisely.
@Yohami
>> Cheating is bad, because lying is bad, and breaking agreements in the dark is bad. bad mkay?
Is this a South Park reference by any chance?
I’ll weigh in on the “women don’t cheat” debate. Sure, some do, but extra credit sex just isn’t something women buy into. Cite me all the stats you want, but it ain’t happenin’. If a woman is at the point where she will have sex outside the relationship, she is making (usually) a strong statement that very very fundamental needs are not being met in that relationship. Something is missing, gone, or was never there. Sex unattached to anything else is a guy thing. Guys want to come, and move on. Guys can justify “side action” on the basis that it doesn’t touch my marriage, I’m a good provider, good with my kids, and if I take an extra slice of the cake or 2 what’s the harm? I’m no expert on women, but I cannot conceive of a woman thinking even remotely like that. Women respect intimacy, see it implicated in far more situations than men do (for good and bad), respect its power, and will not gratuitously engage in it-they need something and expect to get it when they do. Reverse that and you have a workable definition of a male.
Go ahead and cite studies and other arcania to me. This ceased to be a debate from its inception, and I am not debating anyone. I am a reasonably intuitive observer of people, and I know my truth. Not one of you is going to shake it in the slightest.
lmao.
Or maybe he lives in PA and has to drive to Maryland to get beer in a gas station after the liquor stores and beer distributors close.
Not that you didn’t raise other good points, I thought the slide jizzing was questionable. And Jesus Christ, I mean I like sex, but who wants to go at it for over an hour?
He probably has herpes.
No seriously, he probably does.
munson,
I wasn’t debating whether or not women cheat. I’m just saying the ladies who come here don’t cheat. At least, they don’t seem like the cheating type. I’d never dream of cheating.
The difference between men and women is wonderfully summed up in the joke that Paul Newman says at the beginning of “The Verdict”:
A guy’s talking to a group of his pals and says “There’s this great bar that just opened. F0r $20, they give you a beer, a meal and take you into the back room and get you laid.”
“Hold on” one of them says. “You’re saying for $20 you get a beer, a meal AND you get laid. When did you go there?”
“I didn’t” he replies. “But my sister went there last night.”
It doesn’t hold up because it sounds like a rap song written out as a story. Many young guys who are indulgent in hip hop culture engage in a lot of the braggadocio that’s such an ingrained part of the music.
Over the past year, reading lots of blogs, I’ve determined that if a male is indulgent in hip hop, quotes lyrics from songs to make a point, and even like that guy, puts songs or videos as playlists to his blog posts, that’s a pretty strong indicator that he’s to be avoided at all costs because of his “buy in” to the negativity of hip hop.
Wait, let me correct that.
He’s to be avoided by decent women but he’s a perfect fit for “rachets” (to borrow a term I’m sure he’s familiar with) like the one he banged at the park.
@ Olive
“So perhaps it’s not that obesity leads to early puberty, but obesity is an indicator of food choices, and highly processed foods often contain hormones (for example, processed meat, which is also very fatty).”
The reason *I think* it has more to do with obesity than other factors, is because the older women that I know (age 40s <, when the food supply was less processed than today), it's the heavier women who tended to get their periods earlier than the thin girls.
If interested, look up weight, BMI and first menarche.
I'm aware of why people on the lower socio-economic ladder have a higher obesity rate than other groups. Healthy choices are more expensive.
I brought up topic because I've read comments that imply that girls are ready to engage in sex simply because they're developing earlier.
And I believe that girls are developing earlier because they're heavier than girls were in the past. Today's girls may have raging hormones at an earlier age but that has nothing to do with their maturity and readiness to handle sex and its consequences.
I should amend my remarks about women. They don’t necessarily “expect” something from intimacy, but that does not mean they are gratuitously engaging in it. They may gamble, but with them there are stakes on the table, real stakes. Men are the ones who can treat intimacy like penny poker.
I wrote about an encounter I had nearly 40 years ago on Rivelino’s post, about a girl who’s name I cannot recall. I realized that in consuming her so casually I had crushed a part of her spirit. Her expression stays with me.
So go ahead Doug-put a whoopee cushion under that.
anon,
I’ll definitely be looking that up once I’m back at school and have Google scholar access. I find it interesting because small people also get their periods earlier (my mom and I were 11, my grandmother was 10).
BTW I totally agree that just because girls are developing earlier doesn’t mean they’re prepared for sex. I personally think 16-year-olds aren’t ready for sex, but then again, I was an old prude in high school lol.
@ Olive
“. I’ve never read a study suggesting that obesity leads to early puberty, but I’ll certainly look it up.”
This topic peaked my curiosity a very long time ago (decades) when I once heard in the news that girls got their first periods when they reached about 105 lbs.. When I’ve tried finding studies about specific weight, I’ve instead found a lot of references to the 17% BF for onset menarche, which for an average ht woman (5’3″ or 5’4″) would be about 105 lbs..
Thanks, BSD. How’ve you been? I haven’t seen you in a while.
You’re free to believe whatever you want. I can only offer up what I have written.
As to 1, yes I have a habit of raw dogging.
2. You have never had a hour+ drunk sex session?
3. Meh, the platform was a bit bigger than that. Ha and actually not the first time I’ve jizzed down a slide, I banged another chick on a playground before I ever learned of this game business.
4. She wanted me to stick around for a bit so bf wouldn’t get suspicious. I accepted.
5. For the reasons of #4. And yeah, maybe it didn’t bother me.
6. I didn’t think he would believe it either, and I was fully expecting something to happen, but she was pretty adamant all would be fine. If he had problems, he didn’t voice them. Some dudes just don’t know, or don’t want to know. Lower beta out his league, definitely.
@ Olive
“BTW I totally agree that just because girls are developing earlier doesn’t mean they’re prepared for sex. I personally think 16-year-olds aren’t ready for sex, but then again, I was an old prude in high school lol”
You and I both- prudish HS girls, lol.
All the comments stating that because young girls are physically developing earlier- they’re ready for sex are as nonsensical as that poor woman thinking that she’d be fertile in her late 30s/40s because she looks younger than her age.
Tvmunson—
You’re wrong, some women do think like that, usually “former” sluts.
However most women don’t want to have casual sex with a bunch of men in the middle of their marriage, no. They do however tend to have a pull towards serial monogamy after awhile, often somewhere after 4 years of a relationship / marriage, or after the birth and infancy of their kids. They’re just very good at usually hiding that from men and our culture and most cultures pedestalizes women re: only wanting monogamy if her husband stays a good and attractive man – and that therefore it’s entirely his fault if she cheats. That message is strongly out there in the Anglosphere’s combination of British inherited white knighting and pedestalizing of women, and feminism.
Women’s serial monogamy instinct is why when a married woman has great sex with an otherwise compatible lover, that tends to dissolve her feelings of sexual attraction for, and then bondedness towards her husband. That’s not invariable but it’s a strong tendency. Probably less so with former sluts, primarily because they never felt that bonded to their husbands in the first place, it was more “he’s a pretty good catch compared to who else I could get to be committed to me in marriage” kind of “attachment”.
Read Women’s Infidelity by Michelle Langley:
http://womensinfidelity.com/
Also Rodger Devlin on the same subject:
http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rotating.pdf
Susan herself says women have a serial monogamy instinct and sacrifice that for the sake of a stable marriage in which to raise kids just as men have to give up their urges for sexual variety. (Except I’ll interject many American women end up not sacrificing it but instead divorcing even with young kids after a number of years of marriage, on the financial and loss of his kids backs of American men)
Susan Walsh—
He’s white. The previous version of his blog name was whiteboykrispy. It’s otherwise obvious from reading his blog as well. He’s got very well written fratire there by the way.
Well written fratire? How old are you again, Doug?
Anonymous–
A decade ago hardly make it ancient. If anything guys have become a lot more aware of the ass raping men who aren’t poor as church mice typically take in American divorces, plus loss of any control over how much they can see their kids. Family courts rarely do anything to enforce visitation rights, so really it’s all up to the ex wife.
I don’t understand why some of the guys here want a woman who will let him sleep around. I would be crushed if my woman said she didn’t care if I had sex with someone else. It would mean she doesn’t like my sexuality enough to be possessive of it.
Anyway, I don’t think most women are like that. Most women get grossed out at the thought of another chicks fluids on her man’s penis.
flyfreshandyoung–
Sounds like a case of didn’t want to know and thus be humiliated to me. Hence his calling her a couple of times to get “explanations” for the time it was taking.
I think and though when first reading it that you might have somewhat exagg. the time, but I otherwise believed it. There’s a good lot of knowing and semi knowing cuckold’s out there it seems.
Doug1: ” That may be a contributing factor and probably is, but there’s a ton of scientific evidence that most AA’s including the non obese simply mature somewhat faster in a lot of ways, including in brain size, stature, and so on than whites/Euro ancestry people, or NE Asians. ”
The onset of menarche (first period) correlates with BMI of about 17% which is FAR from being obese. Now, I’ve never seen the evidence regarding brain size, though I wonder if puberty is what accelerates it. ??
GudEnuf,
I like that. And I don’t like a lot of what you say. That was good.
By the way, wanted to report back!
Asked the BF about his opinion on divorce/divorce laws, he just shrugged.
Maybe he’s ignorant about divorce (doubtful, he and his sisters went through several custody battles as kids), but more likely that he trusts that when he gets married, his wife won’t divorce him. Ya gotta pick the right lady, there ARE women out there who wouldn’t cheat/leave their husbands if something “better” came along. Perhaps the solution is to rewrite divorce laws… if so, that’s awesome, I’ll leave it to the MRAs to handle that. But another very important part of that solution is to change women’s mindsets, so that they appreciate their men, so that they aren’t constantly wondering if they settled and looking for something better. If we want to resign ourselves to a world where that is a reality, that’s sad.
@ Hope
“So I’m 5’3 and around 107 lbs, putting me at 19 BMI. I was around this weight last two times I got pregnant. I think I’m not really at risk for being underweight, but my body fat % seems to be under 20%.
Should I be putting on more weight?”
First, I’m so sorry for your loss. ((((Hope))))
I’m not a medical professional, so perhaps discuss it with your dr. . Although, personally, IME, doctors don’t know jack about nutrition, so it’s something you should consider looking in to.
Best of luck to you.
@Doug1
I think a lot of it comes down to SMV differences, not so much cuckolding fetishes. While a nice guy, this dude wasn’t very charismatic/attractive in comparison to her. Shes a 7, this dude could probably be classified as a 4. One of those wtf? couples. Grateful for what he has, he subconsciously looks the other way. That can usually explain a lot of instances of such spinelessness from men- knowing they can’t do better.
Same goes for girls. A lot of them would rather look the other way or not know when they’re seeing men they are incredibly attracted to and don’t want to lose.
Very true. It’s easy to buy into saying ‘girls suck’ but most girls I know wouldn’t want to say ‘men suck’ because that would get them branded ‘bitter’ or worse, ‘feminists’ and ‘Team Woman,’ which seems to be the term of choice for shaming women around here.
re: menarche and weight. I was a slightly chubby kid (or at least I thought I was then.. looking at old photos I see that I was big for my age but I don’t look fat) and I had my first period when I was 10 (started growing breasts and body hair a little bit before that). I thought the connection between weight and menarche was well-established and well-known. Interestingly, I was among the tallest girls in my 5th grade class, but now I am among the shortest at 5’2″, which is often the case for women who go through puberty early, because bone growth and HGH release don’t line up properly.
While this is very true, I’d also like to point out that black culture promotes the whole ‘real woman’ mantra, and women, moreso than in white or Asian or Latino culture, are encouraged to be happy with themselves at heavier weights. And many of them apparently are. I wonder if, as Susan said, since only 31% of black men are married, and very few black women are interested in dating/marrying outside their race, that has something to do with the higher rates of obesity you will find among black women. Because while fruits and vegetables are more expensive (and meat is too), if someone really cared about and was committed to losing weight, they would make it happen even with budget constraints (though having kids would make it about 10x more difficult).
Olive,
A lot of MRAs have been fucked over before, so they’re bitter and looking to take that bitterness out on the rest of the world, but for the rest, idk. I feel like a lot of MRAs and even PUAs form their ideas about women because they are attracted to the wrong type of women.
Most men who study game start out as total betas who are sick of getting fucked over…. and over, time and again. Part of the problem is that they start out as wimps, but I think another part is that they’re attracted to the wrong types of women for some reason.
Women are like that, too, sometimes. Some women, for whatever reason, go for the abusers. It’s not even that they go for men who seem alpha. Some men seem beta enough on the outside, but in a relationship are psycho. And some women have a knack for unconsciously sniffing out those men.
I forget who it was, but someone here posted a while back that he was with a divorced woman who dumped her husband for being too beta. Why would someone be with a person like that? Of course you’re going to run into problems with a bitch like that.
So I think you’re right. The focus needs to be on picking a good partner. I think that a lot of the bitter guys whining about how unfair it is for men just have a history for picking bad women.
*history OF picking bad women.
Olive—
I don’t think women usually divorce to try and find a man with a higher SMV than they thought their husband was when they married him. That’s not exactly how it works most of the time. Women’s SMV goes down after her middle 20s while men’s goes up at least tell they’re thirty five if they don’t let themselves get fat and are at least reasonably successful. It does sometimes work like that when women marry real early, especially if their husband moves them to different social circles due to money etc., and she’s hot. Now she can easily prospect hypergamously in his social circles for a guy who both has money AND who spits game and is hot.
No mostly it’s that the semi automatic if he doesn’t really blow things bondedness that comes from a initial strong limerance/falling really in love phase or 3-9 months or so has usually kinda run out of steam by then, so if both he and she aren’t working in the right ways to keep her attracted, especially if he’s been sliding down the beta scale to being say a 6 instead of the greater beta 7 she used to see him as being, then her serial monogamy instincts start to make her eyes wander a good lot. If she’s of the American feminist mindset that if she isn’t tremendously feeling it, she shouldn’t stay in the marriage but rather look for new love, or at least she feels that ought to give her permission as not so bad considering, to cheat, her husband’s fault after all, well there you have it. She looks for another 7 greater beta and cheats with him, and falls in love with him, serially monogamously, thus dissolving all her sexual attraction for and from there feelings of bondedness and being in love with her husband. After a year or two of that, she convinces herself she has to respect her own emotional well being enough to file for divorce.
That’s more how it usually goes. See Langley and Devlin.
Of course Doug is an dorkus. But he’s an entertaining one to me (at least). Everything he writes is a piñata of slack-jawed idiocy: no matter where you hit it, something stupid falls out.
Nice metaphor. Did you come up with that on your own?
JM,
I don’t have to tell you I totally agree. Even now I read Rivelino’s blog and watch him picking up women who have slept with 20+ people and then getting pissed over it. I mean geez, most women I know haven’t even slept with 10.
I’m convinced it’s this weird emphasis on the PUA rating system that doesn’t allow men to filter out past carousel riders or self-entitled princesses. Doug flat out told me on Rivelino’s blog that Riv is looking to move himself up to lesser alpha so he can land an 8 or 9 who hasn’t been a slut. But Riv also wants a girl who’s humble. Where the hell is he going to find an 8 or 9 who hasn’t been a slut and is humble? Not in the U.S. Maybe in Spain? Doubtful.
Also I’m sure you agree that it’s the wrong frame. There’s nothing that exudes confidence about a man who’s so bitter about women that he’s decided “fuck marriage, I’m going to bang as many women as possible!” unless that was his starting point in the first place (for example, you don’t see FFY coming here and exploding in rage at Susan because she didn’t believe his story… he’s kind of like ok, whatevs). Which is why I’ve come to agree with you that Doug is not particularly alpha, because I watch him constantly on the defensive. It’s not his arguments, it’s the way he makes his arguments that makes him look like a bitter fool.
I’ve been doing well JM. How are you? Excited for Christmas?
>> I forget who it was, but someone here posted a while back that he was with a divorced woman who dumped her husband for being too beta.
If I remember correctly, it was your favourite HUS commenter.
Doug,
You’re preaching to the choir. This especially:
I get this. Women like the feeling of new love, and when the “honeymoon phase” is over, they get bored or unsatisfied. Trust me, I’ve experienced it. But the point isn’t that women will get rid of this instinct, it’s that they can get out of the “American feminist mindset” long enough to realize that leaving a LTR or marriage for this reason won’t help them find a LTR or marriage that’s more stable. That’s what I’m trying to do with my blog. Convince the ladies that what they already have is good, they just need to reframe their LTRs/marriages/whatever in a positive light. I’m also trying to convince myself of that, if you haven’t noticed. My blog is really about my own journey.
@Olive:
Riv isn’t mad at women for having 20+ sex partners. He’s mad at himself for actually becoming interested in them after they tell him he does.
Case in point, all was well and good when he was deceiving Blondie, a woman he perceived as to be pure. When he treated her like shit and blogged about it he felt powerful. But then when he found out that her good girl thing was just an act, and he was the one getting played…he suddenly got turned on. And he hated himself for it.
If you read his old blog he talked about how he used to go to sex clubs with his now ex wife and get turned on by watching her perform oral sex on other men. The guy has a lot of issues that he might need a paid professional and a few years to work through. I don’t know why you waste your time on his blog.
BSD,
LOL that’s a sad story about the wife and the sex clubs. No wonder they’re divorced. Hmm that explains a lot. He should be more honest with the poor newbies.
In any case, that only reinforces the hypothesis that he has a history of picking terrible women. Of course, only a crazy woman would get with him, so there you have it. Made for each other.
Emily,
Oops.
Anacoana–
I see that you transferred the fertility discussion to the forum ,but I don’t have time to register, get a password, etc. right now. I just wanted to say that if you are counting your cycle correctly (from the first day of your period), you are indeed ovulating before your uterus can lay down a thick enough lining for an embryo to implant itself in. You should see a doctor ASAP. S/He may want to do an endometrial biopsy among other tests. It’s painful and invasive, but do it anyway. It’ll probably lead to getting your problem resolved. Not that I’m a doctor, but I’ve had just about every infertililty test that was available at the time I was TTC.
Olive,
Yea, Doug’s not alpha. I haven’t read Rivelino’s blog in much detail, but from what you said to me on a past thread, I feel for him a bit. The fact that people are telling him to be done with that 20% romantic beta part is disturbing. Anybody telling you to kill a part of yourself off is not looking out for your best interests. But that’s how the herd operates. They need converts. They don’t mind if you have to amputate a piece of yourself to fit in. Their only strength is in numbers.
#986 stormy
“I don’t know why you waste your time on his blog.”
this is my favorite part.
happy holidays, cutie pie.
BSD,
I’m great, thanks. Things are going very well for me right now. And, Christmas is this week. I love Christmas. So I’m feeling good.
Wow, I didn’t know that about Rivelino. Now I really do kind of feel bad for him.
BSD,
Comment for you stuck in moderation at 987. Too many 3-letter acronyms always seems to do it.
JM,
So funny you mentioned the herd, because the female herd gets shamed quite a bit by ol’ Doug. Seems he has no trouble with a male herd that’s characteristically similar to a female herd. Have already said he argues like a feminist. Last (wo)man standing and all that.
@JesusMahoney:
I know! It’s such a feel good time of year! I think it brings out the best in people. I’ve been volunteering a lot and working with donation drives, and I feel so fortunate to be surrounded by so many people out there who care about one another and their fellow man. It’s truly inspiring! It gives me a lot of hope. The sphere is such a dim place in comparison.
BTW, what is your email? If you don’t want to post it here, that’s cool.
Anonymous, thanks. I am trying to figure out if I am “fat enough” I guess.
I have a decent amount of chest, butt and stomach fat, and I do menstruate. Maybe I’m worrying myself unnecessarily.
On the alimony/child support issue, I may be one of the few women interested in this topic and support the men’s rights folks. I do think that children need to be taken care of, but there are so many complications with this issue from top to bottom, I don’t think I can properly explain my full perspective.
But someone like me talking about it on a blog won’t change anyone’s mind. From my own past actions though, my husband knows I’m not someone to pull a divorce theft. I try very hard to not be a bad girl. That is, has been, and will always be my modus operandi.
I think Mike C.’s quote is quite correct. A society where divorce is rampant and the penalties for marriage are large is a society where men will begin to avoid marriage. And contrary to feminist dogma, marriage has generally been an institution that benefits women even more than men, so the loss of the institution will be a greater ill for women than for men. We have plenty of modern day case studies to see what happens to a community where marriage loses it’s social power as an institution.
While your average college age guy isn’t going to really care too much about divorce and divorce laws, these do contribute to a larger environment where marriage, as a general option, becomes devalued. The end result is mainly apathy toward marriage. And for men who have grown up with families torn apart by divorce, apathy can translate into antipathy, apart from the fact that these men don’t really have a good model for their own relationships. It’s not surprising to see than boys raised in single parent households have many more “issues” than those who have had intact households.
I tend to agree with Dalrock that there is no organized “marriage strike” by men. However, the increasing age of marriage does suggest that men are adapting to the reality on the ground. I see this first hand with my younger siblings and male relatives, who seem to be more and more nonchalant about marriage. When my own Catholic raised mother is recommending that my younger siblings don’t marry but just cohabitate, it’s hard to see the trends of marriage decline changing anytime soon.
Everything he writes is a piñata of slack-jawed idiocy: no matter where you hit it, something stupid falls out.
That is brilliantly funny!
WTF. This thread is illegible.
@Munson
I love this.
Well, guess what else he might be getting? Fly Fresh and Newborn.
Rivelino, you are such a drama queen. I said nothing about banning anyone, and I’m the only one who gets a say.
Right. And that’s the exact attitude I have, as a girl in her early 20s. Which is why it’s ridiculous for Doug to shame me for not being interested. At least the post by ExNewYorker above has a legitimate argument in favor of caring about these issues. Doug just said I was a narcissist for not caring. That made me want to research the issues about as much as a dog peeing on my foot would.
My BF is my age, BTW.
@Malia
Haha, what’s a ratchet?
@FFY
You’ve written up this story as an achievement. It’s a boastful Field Report. If it is true, I’m wondering what you’re proud of. The sex sounds bad, you ejaculated down a piece of playground equipment, you fooled someone mentally retarded, and you may have a baby on the way. Are congratulations in order?
More like Itch, Burn and Ooze.
Urban slang used as both a noun and an adjective. Related to wretched.
He knows.
Re Michelle Langley:
1. She has no credentials. None. She desribes herself as a career consultant.
2. ML has a history of extramarital affairs, which led to the demise of her own marriage. Her book is an exercise in self-exculpation.
3. Amazon does not even stock her book.
4. Her book, describing her own affairs as well as other cheaters, is under 200 pages, but is priced at $130.
5. Her book is full of references to her ex-husband’s small penis, and the important of penis size in preventing a woman from cheating. This reveals her complete lack of moral integrity as well as her ignorance. It’s also a clear cheap shot of revenge.
6. The only place her views are even discussed is in the manosphere, because she takes the “women initiate 70% of divorces” stat and runs with it, chalking it up to the desire women have to cheat, even in good marriages.
She’s a charlatan.
Krispy. Get it?
His previous blog photos showed a black guy.
@GudEnuf
Bless your heart, I want to pick you up and twirl you around the room.
Brilliant. A new insight after all this discussion.
Ugh, it’s the grossest thing I can imagine and no shower can remove it. This is why women are increasingly rejecting manwhores. They don’t want to have Eskimo Twins.
#s 996, 963 and 969
As to visitation, custody, support, I can only sate here locally dad’s are not disfavored or prejudiced.
As to women cheating, I’m not sure I follow the remarks. Very imprecise words are being used. I do not think women cheat as often as men. Cite to whatever you want.
Thank you Olive. It’s comments like these that make the blog worth writing. LOL
Hope—
Since we’ve already talked a lot about divorce laws on this thread, I’m gonna say this. This is what I think would be fair in marriage laws, to both men and women, and is what I’d do in a prenup more or less except for the custody and child support=also stealth alimony parts, which prenups can’t touch. I’d genuinely be interested in your reaction to this, and also Susan’s. And others.
1) Custody and child support:
I’d make true joint physical custody the default, changeable by a family court judge if and only if he finds one of the spouses not to be a good parent or a proven abuser of the child. In those cases I’d have no child support=also stealth alimony getting paid to either spouse. Bigger expenses should be proportional to the spouses incomes. The ex wife should work.
In cases were that isn’t practicable due to moving apart or detesting each other in a big way, I’d give her custody until kids are 9 the default, and him if he wants it from 9 to 18. Each paying child support to the custodial parent.
I’d reduce child support to be less also stealth alimony to be the same the state assess now, often 20-23% for one kid, 25-28% for two, but I’d apply those percentages to AFTER tax income i.e. take home pay for most people, rather than pre-tax income. This won’t reduce the child support received by ex-wives from low earning men much at all, they don’t pay much if any income tax. It will significantly lower the child support=also stealth alimony though for high earning men, making it more true child support with less stealth alimony, but still some. I would also cap the amount as some states like NY now do. That is men wouldn’t have to pay that percentage on after tax income amounts over 200K. It’s 300K in NY now, but that’s on pre tax income. Also a judge can order more, the formula just isn’t used above a cap. I wouldn’t give family court judges that discretion.
2) Alimony
No alimony for women receiving child support=also stealth alimony. Alimony for up to three years for women who have in fact been stay at home moms for more than six months preceding filing for divorce, but never alimony longer than the length of the marriage.
3) Property division.
Split equity in the principle dwelling equally regardless of who paid what in the down payment and mortgage so long as it was purchased in the marriage. All other property is split by who has title, who’s account it is, who has possession or who’s bought it if it’s not clearly a gift. In cases where BOTH the husband and wife wanted her to be a stay at home wife, then the current 50/50 split may be fair but only up to some limit. Maybe her getting a million kind of limit.
LMAO
@Olive
I wasn’t suggesting you were saying women do or don’t cheat. We all know some do. I was saying the argument that they do as much, or more, than men is nuts. I’m in agreement with you.
Susan–
It’s available free on the web or used to be. That’s how I got it, I downloaded it. Last I checked maybe six months ago you could still find it but she made it difficult to find at her site in ways I don’t remember. I imagine it’s torentable as well.
She did a lot of research for it despite not having credentials.
You’re right that it’s partly self exculpation but it’s easy enough to see through those parts of it. It’s got spins I don’t like but I think she’s got the basic dynamic right. Yeah the penis size thing was off putting though SOME women do care about that, mainly sluts. The last chapter or two were generally off putting, and male bashing.
Many/most evo psych people agree with her basic dynamic.
purplesneakers,
Not sure, but this is an interesting theory. All stuff I need to look into, I’m very interested in the notion that there are many different types of barriers to healthy eating, and not all of them are geographic (some are cultural, financial, etc.).
This, I think, is a misconception. There is this American mantra that “if you really wanted to make it happen, you would,” and in the case of food security, I don’t think it applies. Or if it does, it’s not helpful to look at food security that way, because the fact of the matter is obesity rates have skyrocketed since the ’80s, and it’s costing tons of government $. So we need a more systemic approach to solve the issue.
Think of it this way: you live in the hood and you don’t have a car. There’s a small convenience store with crap down the street, or you can take a 2-hour round trip bus ride to get to the grocery store a few miles away. Once you take that bus, you’ll have to load up with groceries, carry them onto the bus, then walk them home from the bus stop. You can see why the convenience store is much more attractive, especially if you have to take care of small children. Add in some cultural ideas about healthy eating, and it’s no wonder America is one of the chubbiest countries, especially when we think about the growing gap between the rich and the poor.
Olive–
I’ve been making most of the arguments he made. Why do you think I talked about that Rutgers study or posted a link to a science blog that give it’s core findings?
The unfairness of our divorce laws is a major factor leading to more male reluctance to marry. Like him I said that it isn’t that most young guys are experts in American divorce law, they just see and hear about the fallout a lot.
It does bother me that so many women seem to not care about unfairness when it benefits them. Men do care about righting unfairness when it benefits them but hurts women, hence men signing on to the earlier stages of feminism.
Doug,
You must see that I’m not a feminist. You must see that I am alarmed by divorce rates. You must see that I hate the kind of female behavior you talk about, and I want women to knock it off. I just don’t care about your specific solutions to divorce law, because frankly it’s not something I’m passionate about. Dunno why you have to get a bee in your bonnet about that.
I just wrote a comment about food insecurity in response to purplesneakers. I highly doubt most people will respond, or show any type of interest in obesity trends and the reasons behind them. That’s fine. Food insecurity and obesity, in particular, are my research interests, but it’s okay if people don’t really care to discuss them. Doesn’t mean those people are ignorant narcissists.
@SW
I share my stories because more people than I could have believed when I started enjoy reading them, and I want to inspire anyone out there that doesn’t want to live a boring, average life. A lot of wild things can happen when you go with the flow and stop caring about what other people want you to do.
LOL at the charge of herpes. The go-to for many haters, especially the sexually inexperienced who think everybody has STDs.
And there is no kid on the way. This happened a few months back.
Lastly, haha I’m white. That pic was Wiz Khalifa from a concert of his I went to
flyfreshandyoung–
Yeah if you were black, you’d be the whitest sounding black guy I’ve ever run into on the net. Well Dragnet is black and pretty white sounding, but not like you. Your point of view is just white. I don’t know exactly how I can tell but I can.
Olive–
Good for you all around.
Olive–
Yeah calling you a narcissist over not being interested in it was a bit over the top. Sorry. Peace.
So too was my being attacked for talking about divorce law on this thread about rapidly declining marriage rates and future threats to marriage rates.
Doug, I outlined my own thoughts on my blog.
But I am just not in a mood to really argue today. Hair trigger, hating that my period came and I’ll be spending Christmas not pregnant. Hating life right now.
To be a hater, envy/jealousy is required. I don’t envy you.
You exhibit a lot of risk factors for contracting STDs. That’s the truth.
But let me just put this out there the only people “hating on” guys who engage in high risk indiscriminate sex are other guys who wish they could engage in high risk discriminate sex but cannot. It’s really not possible for a woman to hate on a man’s ability to have sex because sex is easily accessible to women. Add to that, you’re not even banging dimes (more like nickels and pennies) and frankly, that’s nothing to hate on.
Doug,
Thanks, apology accepted. FWIW, it’s not that you have bad things to say, I think most of us agree with you. It’s that we’ve become tired of discussing divorce law in threads when we just want to talk about how to improve the monogamy/marriage situation for men and women. If anything, my “attack” was meant to deter you a bit from your rants, as I feel that many threads have been going down the divorce law path lately. Perhaps you should start your own blog about divorce law reform? I’m sure tons of guys would read it (not as many ladies, but then again, my BF’s mom, who was divorced twice, hardly has an e-mail address, so I doubt she’d be out there reading blogs lol).
Anyway, I’m officially calling a truce. Yay truce!
@Hope
I and many others here are sending positive thoughts and energy your way. Trying to stay receptive so that you can receive it. xoxo
@Susan #999
Here I write (and I’m forgetting a lot) about: (in no particular order) deflowering 72 virgins, 2 pieces in homage to panties, me in drag as Georgia O’Keefe, tell you I’m falling for you, anallingus, sodomy, flirt with you shamelessly (BTW I’ve always associated flirting with something gals, not guys, do; I imagine coquettish batting of the eyes, playful, lilting laughter that makes a man’s heart soar just to hear it; only after you posted did I realize yep! I do it too, although my worst enemy wouldn’t call me coquettish), use every stratagem I can think of to get your attention including telling you to tell your husband about me, trying to provoke a response-and then you pick that quote.
Which reinforces something I’ve thought about you women for a long time. I think it’s our unguarded moments, when we aren’t necessarily trying to do anything to thrill, impress or enchant you, that makes its best impact. Sure you appreciate our self-conscious attempts to be “sweet”, love us when we show you our love, but what hits the tenderest spot is when we are just “us”, exultantly toweling ourselves after a swim, preoccupied, “in the moment”, as you catch a glimpse of our little boy selves. A woman’s deep bonding with her man contains the very very slightest maternal tug and that’s when it happens, if only for an instant.
Intuitive, huh?
BTW Susan you mentioned cat-o’nine-tails somewhere above ( I aint’ going to look for it). Look at your pic, objectively: a guy could be forgiven for imagining you holding one with that same expression as you approach a la Joan Cusak in “Shameless” (forgot to add that to my list; that’s twice I mentioned corporal punishment and you; just add it to the list above).
Hope,
Good thoughts coming your way from over here. Listen, though, don’t let all that nurturing energy you want to shower on your future baby go to waste in the meantime. There’s an entire planet starving for nurturance, and you seem to be brimming with it.
The sucky reality is that many STDs have detrimental effects on women but not men. Untreated chlamydia and gonorrhea can lead to fallopian tube scarring, which can render a woman infertile. HPV can lead to uterine cancer (which is very serious). Genital warts and herpes just sound painful to both sexes, and they’re untreatable. Tons of risks, banging randos. But unfortunately, for certain STDs, women suffer the consequences and men don’t.
Also a girl in one of my classes is a Ph.D. student who studies chlamydia. Apparently it’s asymptomatic in over 5o% of cases (I think maybe the actual number is 70%, but I don’t remember). So, if you don’t get tested regularly, that’s a shame. If you’re a guy, you could give it to a girl, and if you’re a girl, you could become infertile if you don’t get checked and never notice or experience symptoms.
The STD problem is bigger than most hookup culture proponents realize or want to admit. Which is why women, especially, need to be careful.
Doug
What do I think about your proposed revamp of the domestic relations laws? Well, I do not think it would be a simplification but I do nto want to explicate further. Law is what I do for a living, and this feels like work, not fun. In Idaho, DR is fairly straight forward, but once you hit the facts of real life, with real pissed off litigants, the permutations are endless, mind numbing at times. Yours starts off complicated ( I know you don’t think so). But I’m tired; if you want to argue for it you win.
“Haha, what’s a ratchet?”
A slut with illusions of grandeur ~JS
Oh, are people still here?
They exist, but they would never go for someone like Riv.
Paging Bb, we’ve got another ship in the house.
I’m getting tired of scrolling past comments. -__- Someone let me know when we’re talking about something interesting, mmkay?
BSD,
I’d be cool with giving you my e-mail, but yea, I’d rather not post it right on the blog.
The sphere really IS a dim place compared to being surrounded by folks who are devoting themselves to the happiness of others. I find that there are some good eggs here though.
Did you hear? I have a girlfriend now.
I called it!
Congrats. Though, I sincerely hope your newfound female solidarity doesnt backfire on this one.
Oh snap, congrats JM!
Asked the BF about his opinion on divorce/divorce laws, he just shrugged.
That’s exactly how my husband reacts to most of the stuff that gets the men on these blogs so overwrought. In fact, most men of my acquaintance feel the same way. It’s just not on their radar the way it is for manosphere commenters.
Thanks.
I have Doug to thank for the solidarity. Having a common enemy helps (Thanks, Doug!).
In all seriousness, though, I think what I’m saying just resonates with some of the women here. I still advocate for game. I still think game works, in both short and long term relationships, and I still believe that men should strive to be strong, assertive, and confident. And the pedestalization of women still makes me shake my head.
That said, I’m moving away from rigid notions of alpha, beta, omega, etc… I think men should develop all aspects of themselves and be 3 dimensional. A bit of Jesus, a helping of Mahoney, and a dollop of Dirty Harry. I think a man who does any less is selling himself short.
Oh snap, thanks, SayWhaat!
I’ll second what Doug1, ExNewYorker and Mike C said. The inability of even the NAWALTs to care about men (regarding divorce thefts & related fallouts) is the last Red Pill I took from this blog. I already knew about these things when I started reading HUS, but at the time, I was looking for a LTR and still somewhat believed in NAWALTs. Well, now that I’ve seen it with my own eyes and heard straight from the horse’s mouth…
Even young men who don’t have a clue about these blogs are paying attention and taking notes. I’ve observed a much greater awareness of these issues in my social circles within the last few years. We largely keep our mouths shut in mixed company, so the women wouldn’t have a clue what we’re up to.
>> I think it’s our unguarded moments, when we aren’t necessarily trying to do anything to thrill, impress or enchant you, that makes its best impact. Sure you appreciate our self-conscious attempts to be “sweet”, love us when we show you our love, but what hits the tenderest spot is when we are just “us”, exultantly toweling ourselves after a swim, preoccupied, “in the moment”, as you catch a glimpse of our little boy selves. A woman’s deep bonding with her man contains the very very slightest maternal tug and that’s when it happens, if only for an instant.
Awww… This is so poetic. …and true.
@ Jesus Mahoney
Congrats on the girlfriend! I hope things go well between you two.
Thanks, Sassy.
Jesus–
Congrats.
Hope–
Best wishes on getting preggers soon.
Thanks, Doug
JM,
Congrats buddy!
Susan Walsh–
I challenge you to respond to my proposal of a fair to both men and women divorce law proposal I made above. It was a serious proposal and an effort to be fair to both sexes, under current American circumstances.
I think if you and your blog have have any intellectual integrity, you’ll have to respond.
I completely agree that the food distribution system isn’t equitable at all, but at the same time, the example you gave is a perfect example of what I mean… it is difficult but possible, it will require more effort if you don’t have as much money or are living in a not-that-great situation and were dealt a shitty card in life. I’m all in favor of re-thinking industrial agriculture and the current food distribution system (I think removing corn subsidies is a necessary part of the solution), but at the same time, I think people have found it a convenient excuse to say “fruits and vegetables are too expensive,” rather than taking more responsibility for their choices. Besides you don’t *need* to eat fruits & vegetables to lose weight (health is a different matter).. I think people get all caught up in this idea that they need to be eating super healthy all the time and need to join a gym, so why bother with small changes like not drinking soda (I’ve known poor people who would complain about food prices but fall for advertising tricks and buy several twelve packs of soda simply because it was ‘buy 2 get 1 free,’ when soda is just sugar and chemicals and empty calories) or going for a walk or (if that is unsafe) doing aerobics or bodyweight exercises inside.
Thanks, Olive.
@Munson
That’s it! That is the sweet spot, the magic moment. I have felt it often, but you’re the first person who’s ever put it so eloquently.
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