The Good Men Project has been a real sh*tshow lately. The site’s founder, Tom Matlack, found himself labeled an ALLY FAIL by radical feminists the other day. They’ve been feasting at his blog for months, but they didn’t hesitate to devour the hand that feeds them …I imagine that by now Matlack looks like he submerged his arms in a tank of piranhas.
Interesting “feedback.” I really thought the MRA guys were crazy until I engaged the wrath of the feminists. Insane.
Tom Matlack
I’ll dish up the dirt at the end of the post, but first I want to call your attention to Is Feminism to Blame for Hookup Culture?just published there by Neely Steinberg. It came out of this whole kerfuffle, and in it she offers a contrast of her views with the views of feminist Hugo Schwyzer.
I mentioned to Hugo that I was intrigued by our contrasting positions—his steadfast defense of feminism and critiquing of men versus my critiquing of feminism and steadfast defense of men—not because we disagree in the ideological sense, but because of our tendency to stray from defending our own gender.
Hugo went first. Choice bits:
…My views about pleasure-centered sex education are very much rooted in what I’ve lived through and what I’ve seen.I’ve been married to four women, been “in love” with twice that many, and for a brief but intense period in my 20s and early 30s, I was very promiscuous. I now live very happily in a monogamous marriage. I’m not haunted by what I did, nor did the tremendous variety of experiences I had when I was younger spoil any opportunity for fulfillment with just one partner in an enduring relationship. Without compromising her privacy, I can say that my current (and last) wife’s life prior to our marriage was not dissimilar to my own. The intimacy we have today is at least partly a consequence of our experiences with other people, not in spite of them.…Women in particular need reassurance that their worth is not linked to their number of sexual partners. They need to hear that pursuing pleasure for its own sake when they’re young will not make it more difficult to form enduring monogamous relationships (if they want them) when they’re older.…I do regret the pain I caused other people. Rightly so. But what my life has taught me is that insight and compassion are rooted in experience; you can’t advise about what you don’t understand. My own ability to be a patient father, a faithful husband, a decent teacher and mentor isn’t in spite of my wild sexual choices when I was younger—it’s in large part because of them, and the lessons I learned.…I want to equip young people to discover their own sexuality and to make informed, pleasure-centered, empathy-centered decisions based on what they discover. I want them to know that they have the inner resilience to recover from the “silly” and “vapid” decisions they may make.
Here’s Neely:
I happen to think most women aren’t all that interested in having a lot of [casual sex] for purely sexual reasons, with multiple partners no less. And I’ve come to believe that feminism’s inability, and at times refusal, to acknowledge differences between the sexes has been disingenuous and has gravely backfired on women, leaving them ill-equipped to discover what really feels good and right to them.…I was told, by the 10% of women who are capable of effectively and consistently compartmentalizing their emotions when it comes to no-strings attached sex, that emotions were overrated, anathema even, and could easily be separated from sexual acts with another human being, to unapologetically unleash my inner slut (there’s that word again). It was our right (rite?) as women, our responsibility as sexual creatures, to show the world we can fuck like men do, have instantaneous orgasms, and feel faaaabulous while doing it in our 4-inch Manolo Blahniks. Countless women bought into this lie, only to realize years later that it doesn’t, in fact, feel so great most of the time, and that actually, there’s nothing all that empowering and liberating about spreading your legs with wild abandon.
On her years in the hook-up scene:
It’s as if I needed the crutch of Vodka to tell me what I was doing was an awesome idea, because without it I’d know better. I wasn’t alone. It was happening all around me. My friends, female acquaintances, countless women I’d met briefly over the years—we were all in the same boat. Post-college, we could pursue our careers and hobbies and passions full-force but were unable to form lasting attachments, to believe that a man wanted us for anything more than a quick hook-up, to understand what real intimacy was about.…If feminism’s goal was to eradicate the falsehood that a woman’s worth is tied to her sexuality, it has failed on many accounts. All I learned from drunken, fleeting hook-ups over the course of a decade was how much I was being viewed as a sexual object by men, as a vagina who happens to think and feel, rather than a thinking, feeling human being who also happens to have a vagina.
And finally on the feminist movement itself:
I understand everyone’s journey is unique, but I think young women today are looking for different, more tempered voices other than the I-am-woman-hear-me-roar variety, for tangible, strategic dating advice (such as, if you want a relationship try developing emotional, spiritual, and mental bonds with a man you like or just started dating by delaying sexual gratification—yours and his).
The always insightful Stuart Schneiderman had this to say about the article:
Very few men openly identify themselves as feminists. Still, many men happily mouth the basic tenets of the feminist credo. They may not understand what they are saying, but they support the cause because they feel grateful for what feminism has done for them.Take Hugo Schwyzer. He has been married four times. He has had countless casual sexual encounters and no small number of relationships. Manifestly, he feels grateful and perhaps endebted to feminism for having provided him with so much free love.So, he defends the feminist party line.In debating Neely Steinberg Schwyzer does not dispute that feminism, especially sex-positive feminism, has helped create the hookup culture.Yet, Schwyzer thinks it’s a good thing, for him, for his fourth wife, and for everyone who wants to learn from experience. Being anything but a gentleman Schwyzer lets on that his fourth wife can match him hookup for hookup.
…As it happens, Steinberg is far more cogent and thoughtful than Schwyzer. In truth, Schwyzer doesn’t seem to be thinking at all.
He wants young women to see their hookups as learning experiences. It’s amusing to see an ideological zealot defending the value of experience. What would Schwyzer say if experience taught people that feminism is exploiting young women to advance its ideological agenda?
I thank Neely for bringing these opposing views into the open where they may be examined and discussed. Neely’s post came out of a furious Twitter squabble when Tom Matlack pissed off the radfems by objecting to Schwyzer’s post In Rape Culture, All Men Are Guilty Until Proven Innocent, and then by daring to suggest this:
Men and women are different. Quite different in fact. But women would really like men to be more like them.
I can’t imagine Neely’s article is going to help Matlack get back into the Piranhas’ good graces, but if he continues to speak out against man hating and female supremacy the Good Men Project will be a much better blog. Voices like Neely Steinberg’s need and deserve to be heard.
By the way, for my view on whether feminism is to blame for hookup culture, see How Feminism Got Drunk and Hooked Up With a Loser. Shoot, does the title give it away?
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#900
Although Biblical scholars state Onan was not using self-help, but simply “pulled out” too soon ( coitus interruptus) thus “spilling his seed on the ground”. Not sure how you get to be a biblical scholar, and not sure it’s worth it if this is the sort of thing you write about.
alvin1
as a lapsed and utterly disillusioned catholic I prefer the guilty pleasure of 80s and 90s british comedies to that of biblical scholarship.
Dumb Prince Regent: “Why did our Lord not help out a lowly worm in his hour of need”
His butler, Edmund BlackAdder: “Nope”
Prince Regent: “Well its the kinda thing he would have done….”
I too was lapsed; the pedophilia scandal and the (continuing)cover-up made me an avowed anti-Catholic.
Alvin,
My original problem with my family’s religion was the hypocrisy, the accumulated wealth and the ingrained sexism.
The pedophilia issue delivered a final killer blow to any dwindling loyalties I may have harboured.
@Jess
I never explored the “lapsed” phase; I cannot put a name to the things that created my estrangement. My last real sacrament in the church was a confession. I was 22 and confined; the priest was simply in a chair opposite me.He put the purple vestment on explaining to me that by doing so he had come within the purview of the sacrament, as had I. At some point he said to me (in a fine Irish brogue) “Religion was ne’er meant to be a burden to ye’ my son.” I had never had anything like that thought; to me, religion was all burden. To me the proposition was religion added additional pain, suffering and obligation to that which was already baked into the cake of life, the payoff being Disneyland after death. It was the only time I experienced a religious, as opposed to spiritual, moment.
“baked into the cake of life”
what a marvellous expression (although somewhat depressing)
i can can certainly say that some members of my family seem to revel wallowing in the misery of their shackles.
i think my parents kind of pay lip service to it though I doubt they would ever admit it.
both them and I appear the most happy within our extended family.
i must say, the happiest moments of my life have been when i decided not to be burdened with self denial and penance.
Now all i have is a slight annoyance that I didn’t come to the same conclusions earlier- perhaps 15 or s0.
On the other hand perhaps the catholic guilt ship kept me on the straight and narrow.
ps I say all this but I still get stabs of instilled Catholic guilt. I even get it typing Mr Mahoney’s (another posters) 1st name- its just amazing how early indoctrination effects us.
@Jess
The last vestiges of my Catholic guilt, I am embarrassed to admit, occur when I sit down in a very hot bath (I mostly shower, for reasons that will be discussed infra). Sister Agnes (4th grade) conjured up a very good analogy to hell, saying it was as if you took the hottest bath water you’ve ever felt, turned it up a million times, and immersed yourself in it, forever. I’d be lying if I did not say that I think of Sister Agnes’ admonition EVERY time I take a hot bath (not sauna; I can do sauna). As the hot water singes my backside, invariably a little voice says “What is she’s (no need to ask who) right?” She also talked about Purgatory, and how if you did something good you’d be able to get a glass of water there (this was pre- Vatican II,50 years ago). Reference is to the Bible story where guy in Hell asks some saint to dip his finger in water and give it to him-ixnay.
BTW alvin is my confirmation name.
“Baked into the cake of life”: yes, suffering, pain, and all the rest that man is heir to are baked in. But it is still a cake, still sweet. Savor every morsel of it, be sustained by it.
one wonders if your st agnes got a kick out of terrifying children in this way.
if she did, and that was her only vice, she would be one of the more virtuous of her peers.
one wonders how many people have their sex lives (including activities causing blindness) ruined by this sort of thing.
I dont have a problem with baths per se (although I might do now- thanks!) but just being undressed can sometimes cause a pang. This time of year generally can cause some ‘pangness’ obviously.
Jess
I truly do not think she got a vicarious thrill out of saying this stuff. I’m describing events 51 years old. This young woman (early 20s) had been raised in, and taken her vows in, a very severe Catholicism, more severe than the one I experienced which has been gone for decades. This is how Sisters were taught to teach children, and this woman even as a 9 year old I could see was intensely religious. I would also bet she was troubled. But I did not see in her the delight in pain that I saw in Mrs. Hart (she didn’t have one) who I had the previous year (we alternated between and lay and Sisters as teachers). Hart’s pain was only physical; she didn’t have the imagination to play with our heads, thank God (facetious). I’ve wondered many times if Sister Agnes stayed in the sisterhood. I can see the turbulent 60s which were yet to arrive disrupting her.
Re: Baths-yeah, Sister Agnes can get to you too! She used to say (to me, individually) “You can take the boy out of the Catholic, but (emphasis as SHE put it )YOU CAN’T TAKE THE CATHOLIC OUT OF THE BOY!”. I didn’t know what she meant ( I thought it was a compliment; I was not the brightest bulb in the archdiocese), but now I do, and maybe you do too. My hot tub is now a fire pit; coincidence, seriously, coincidence.
“you cannot take the catholic out of the boy”
Well you can- you just have to drag the priest backwards by the shoulders…
(Im so so sorry- thats an appallingly tasteless joke that the xmas sherry i have imbided is mostly responsible for- and to think I have recently been told off by SW for insensitivity- ah well, its a few day till the new years resolutions!)
I daresay your analysis of Agnes is spot on- all the more religious types in my family are either dysfunctional or have had treatment for depression (or need it). I travel a fair bit- and the contrast between say, NY, London, Poland and my various family locations- well…you see the difference in happiness of human beings in stark contrast. I think thats when I resent organised religion the most.
as for the ‘coincidence’ …. you sure you haven’t got fire and brimstone painted on your bathroom walls?….and a wimple in your wardrobe?
@Jess
I was shocked yes shocked (“Casablanca”) at your unseemly and unfair allusion to sodomy (“Sod a you? Sod a him”-I know it stinks but I’ve been waiting to use my only Vaudeville joke ref to anal sex; it’s hard to pull one liners with anal sex; that last doesn’t read well) and the Catholic Church but damn it was good.I didn’t see it coming (nor did he-bada bing!) In fairness to Agnes (probably her name in Christ, so I should say Sister) she had reasons not to like me. Like a lot of very dark brunettes, she had a moustache, only hers with a little wax would’ve done justice to a guy. Tall and rangy (she was The Enforcer-every Catholic school had at least one Sister who could take on 8th grade boys-she was ours) , she reminded me of one of the Three Musketeers, and every time I’d get near her she’d catch me looking at it. I was intrigued with the cover of C.S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” which was in the lobby of the church (we went to Mass every day); it had a great pic of Satan. I’d ask her about it; at that time I’d taken up swearing as a way to impress the guys (non-athletic) which I believed to be a mortal sin. I couldn’t go to communion (you recall that), and then I’d ask her about Screwtape. She told me once “I wish you were concerned with your soul.” I was 9. Never told anyone that; I’d have caught more hell from my parents if I had. So her intense religiosity, and my apparent pagan inclinations plus ADD drove her nuts. I used to self-medicate with coffee, just like the South american kids they studied which ulitmately led to Ritalin; by the 3rd grade I could make a better pot of coffee than most adults incl. my parents and did make the coffee in our house. But in 1960 there was no Ritalin, you were just a misbehaving little bastard. I was that too.
Jess
Just got a Mormon pamphlet called “Oranges at Christmas.” Tells the story of an orphan girl and her poor orphanage. I’ll cut to the chase: she and they end with more money and material possessions than they can count, thanks to their undying faith. Here is a particularly American variant of Christianity, Jesus as your hedge fund manager.
Something good is going to happen to you
Happen to you, this very day
something good id going to happen to you
Jesus of Nazareth is calling collect (my variation of Oral Roberts intro;remember when that prick told his flock if they didn’t cough up enough $ God was going to kill him and the stupid assholes bought it?)
I don’t know about depression etc., but the religious people are at least, on average, as nasty, avaricious, petty, gossipy and every other venal sin as anybody else, maybe a tad more. I despise their 2 chord Christianity; love Jesus, I’m saved. True Christianity takes a profound psychological shift, beyond me for sure, and that’s just the beginning.
BTW just caught your take on my firepit; I meant when I got in the hot tub.. Agnes’ curse got me (it did) but that wasn’t why I took it out (tongue in cheek). Your ref shows you to be quicker than I am.
Passer by
She didn’t cheat.
Honestly, I thought about getting back with her a lot over the summer. Mostly, I think I felt guilty, like I didn’t have a legitimate reason for breaking it off with her.
I’m going out with someone else now. Though even if I weren’t, I think the answer would be no, because I know exactly where it would go: nowhere. It might be hypocritical since I messed around a lot this summer, but I have a difficult time taking a woman seriously who’s had casual sex, or at least one who has had it and hasn’t, ya know, changed drastically.
I wouldn’t say that I hate or resent or have any bitterness towards women like that, but, whenever I’m having a serious conversation with a woman who I know has slept around, I’m thinking, “that’s interesting, but of course, you’ve fucked randos.” Or, “You seem nice–for a gal who’s sucked dick recreationally.” I have a very difficult time not seeing “slut”.
I know that’s unfair, but it’s how I am. I have a great deal of empathy for women who sleep around, and I can respect their intellects, their creativity, and even the goodness of their hearts if they are in fact good. But, the word slut is still attached.
So no. And I wouldn’t want to just hit it, because I know if that happened, there’d be an expectation for more, and I wouldn’t want to open wounds, hurt her again, etc…
Sue,
Agreed. Though it’s still sex w/o monogamy.
Doug,
In my view, a woman who’s putting out for a guy for 4-5 months with no exclusivity on the man’s part is definitely not a woman with whom a man should have a committed relationship.
@Jesus
Honestly, I thought about getting back with her a lot over the summer. Mostly, I think I felt guilty, like I didn’t have a legitimate reason for breaking it off with her.
Just my opinion, but I don’t think you needed some “legitimate” reason where legitimate means defined by some external code, individuals, worldview. The fact that you felt uncomfortable and possibly still do is plenty legitimate. Seriously, the decision to marry someone is perhaps the most important decision you will make in your entire life and it is ultimately a PERSONAL decision, and one not having to be made according to someone elses’ potentially totally bullshit code. And I say that as someone who made that decision wrongly once.
I wouldn’t say that I hate or resent or have any bitterness towards women like that, but, whenever I’m having a serious conversation with a woman who I know has slept around, I’m thinking, “that’s interesting, but of course, you’ve fucked randos.” Or, “You seem nice–for a gal who’s sucked dick recreationally.” I have a very difficult time not seeing “slut”.
I know that’s unfair, but it’s how I am. I have a great deal of empathy for women who sleep around, and I can respect their intellects, their creativity, and even the goodness of their hearts if they are in fact good. But, the word slut is still attached.
Unfair? Ehhhh. That’s your call if you want to feel that way, but don’t let someone else impose that on you if you don’t really feel that way. Look, in my opinion, human sexuality is some very powerful, primal, instinctual type shit. IT IS WHAT IT IS. In my view, there are certain instincts that are essentially hardwired into the male POV. The male reaction to highly promiscuous women is both instinctual and visceral. So in my opinion applying moral judgements to that view like “unfair” or whatever else is bullshit especially if you apply it to yourself willingly.
Ultimately, I think each guy has to come to terms with what level of prior promiscuity he is willing to accept out of a potential marriage partner, and I think once you do that, you’ve got to put it behind, and move forward and not drudge it up at some later date.
I wanted to respond to you because I think you are conflicted about things you ought not be conflicted about, and you are conflicted possibly because you are trying to apply an equalist standard of judgement to wholly different set of instincts. Its your call, but I wouldn’t let that mental baggage occupy space.
and one not having to be made according to someone elses’ potentially totally bullshit code. And I say that as someone who made that decision wrongly once.
Jesus, I started dating my ex-wife at the age of 22 and when she was 23. I married her shortly after turning 30 and she was 31. We dated off and on those 8 years although the bulk of those 8 years was a exclusive relationship with her although I had a couple of 1-1.5 year periods where I was doing the casual thing. Looking back, there were a number of reasons I went through with marrying her, but I’ll tell you what one was THAT WAS VERY MISGUIDED and that was obligation. That I was somehow obligated in marrying her because “I had taken her best years”. What a stupid reason to marry and what a utter crock of shit. Looking back, where did I get that nonsensical notion. Truthfully, from my Mom, from her Mom, her sister, basically all the women somehow connected to us because that is the female view. She “invested” those years in me and I “owed” her. Nevermind, it was just as much her choice to date me rather than breakup and find another guy. I had internalized aspects of the female imperative as the moral thing even if was bad for me, and it turned out to be very bad for me (thankfully we had no kids and basically shit for assets to split up).
Again, I only mention this because I see you internalizing misguided views such that it is “unfair” to make that judgement that you are making instead of realizing you are simply feeling what your primal instincts tell you to feel.
Jesus/Mike C,
I hear you on the “reasons” thing – it’s a big red-pill moment to realize that you don’t need a “reason” to stop dating someone. If the relationship is unproductive for you and you don’t want to be in it, that’s all you have to say.
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/moving-on-and-when-to-do-it/
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/05/07/on-modern-manhood-and-updates-to-yesterdays-post/
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/breaking-up-smart/
Quoteth myself,
“The price of choosing our own partners is that someone may not choose us. Think of it as capitalism’s “creative destruction” applied to interpersonal relations.”
MikeC,
“one was THAT WAS VERY MISGUIDED and that was obligation. That I was somehow obligated in marrying her because “I had taken her best years”. What a stupid reason to marry and what a utter crock of shit. Looking back, where did I get that nonsensical notion. Truthfully, from my Mom, from her Mom, her sister, basically all the women somehow connected to us because that is the female view. She “invested” those years in me and I “owed” her. Nevermind, it was just as much her choice to date me rather than breakup and find another guy. I had internalized aspects of the female imperative as the moral thing even if was bad for me, and it turned out to be very bad for me (thankfully we had no kids and basically shit for assets to split up).”
I had a bit of this before I broke up with my previous girlfriend (and she was in her early 20′s!). MikeC himself was actually a big help in breaking out of the false mindsets I had that would have locked me into an ultimately dysfunctional relationship for a long time.
“The male reaction to highly promiscuous women is both instinctual and visceral”
and the reaction to that is the creation of the make-believe “pro sex positive feminist” who was contrived solely to convince the public that such thinking is cultural and based on men’s egos, insecurities and subconscious feelings about their mothers or some such weak and ineffectual obvious stupidity. Yet this laughable and pathetic little-girl ranting is belched continually by frustrated individuals desperate to “redress a balance” and especially by those who find or found it so easy to get laid…aka women.
The male reaction is natural. If the female reaction toward men was similar then there would be no howling and whining. Women make a choice when deciding a man’s prior fucking around is or is not inconsequential and respect her thinking in this regard. So then, why is it that when men employ the exact same decision making regarding women they get overt disrespect and an entire shaming movement [sex positive feminism] thrown in their faces?
I think this quote from Malia below is a nice rebuttal:
“The problem is those guys think they speak for all guys, when they speak for all guys LIKE THEM.”
Given that the experienced girls witnessed by posters here have gone on to marry ‘high quality’ guys it would seem that there are pros and cons to very decision one makes in life and that opinion on the issue does vary.
So its nice blogs like this demonstrate the variety of viewpoints that exist.
Alvin1,
“nasty, avaricious, petty, gossipy”- I had no idea you had met some members of my extended ‘god fearing’ family! What a small world!
muskateer- it sounds like Sister Agnes could have done with the upper lip lightener some girls use- or is that the sin of vanity?
“material possessions”- I have always thought the highly ornate, Catholic churches and building were somewhat at odds with the basic tenants of Christianity- namely that the pursuit of material wealth was immoral. This occurred to me as a young child actually- little did I know that other immoralities extended to beneath the priesthood’s smocks.
Mike C/Badger,
I went through that whole red-pill moment over the summer, where a part of me was asserting what I wanted while another part of me was shaming the first part for wanting what it wanted. Id and Superego sitting on either shoulder with a halo on the one and a pitchfork for the other and both whispering into an ear.
So I’ve worked that out. As for the other, the “unfairness” issue, I’ve worked that out for the moment by realizing that life simply isn’t fair. I’m perfectly comfortable with not wanting to commit to a promiscuous woman. I don’t feel conflicted about that anymore. I’ve slept around a bit. Yet, I’d rather not have a relationship with a woman who’s slept around like that. That’s life. I would respect a woman’s choice not to date me because I’ve slept around a bit. So I feel okay about that.
I do, however, try to challenge my own perspective when I find myself not taking anything a woman says seriously because I know she’s a slut.
“those guys think they speak for all guys”
“opinion on the issue does vary”
If “those guys” represented a minority of guys then there would be NO OPINION spouted from those who have such a compelling urge to “redress a balance,” NO constant attempts to “correct misinformation” and NO thoroughly annoyed thorn-stuck-in-side women trumping up all this into an “ISSUE”
Women make a choice when deciding a man’s prior fucking around is or is not inconsequential and men respect her thinking in this regard. So then, why is it that when men employ the exact same decision making regarding women they get overt disrespect and an entire shaming movement [sex positive feminism] thrown in their faces? This question bears repeating. Apparently.
there are lots of unpleasant attitudes on this planet:
racism, sexism, bullying, slut shaming, pedophilia, religious fanaticism etc
Now whilst these things are not equally bad, they are all, ultimately, anti social.
And even if only a minority of people purport to hold such views I am encouraged by the fact that so many people, from all sorts of backgrounds attempt to extinguish such attitudes.
Somehow, if you disagree with or do not buy into this for yourself:
“experienced girls witnessed by posters here have gone on to marry ‘high quality’ guys”
Then your shamed as a contributor of one or more of these:
racism, sexism, bullying, slut shaming, pedophilia, religious fanaticism
Then it follows that not wanting to marry an “experienced girl” **IS** slut shaming and sexism thrown in for good measure.
But we already knew that, didn’t we.
@Jess #925
Agree the “ornamentation” is not Christian, but they belong to the Church, not the laity or priests, and I’m sure it’s defended a something that aids the experience, like incense (or whatever is used). The American variant is the believing in Jesus will land YOU the big $, which is something I never heard a priest suggest. That’s as much defense of Catholicism as you’ll get from me. I never got the idea from my religious learning that the pursuit of wealth was inherently evil; Jesus knew and respected a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea; Jesus was buried in his tomb. But it is hard; “easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.” I was taught that the “eye of the needle” referred to an opening in the city wall; the gates remained closed against enemies. The camel was forced onto its knees and then prodded through. The more goods piled upon it, the harder this would be. The analogy would be the more attached to material goods you are, the less capacity you have to render unto God that which is His.Some interpret it literally, meaning it was impossible. Jesus did say no man can serve 2 masters; heaven or “manna” (“bread”=material possessions, beatnik term for money). It can be argued literally I suppose.
None of the Sister wore makeup; so I don’t know if Sister Agnes couldv’e used bleach.
“I’m perfectly comfortable with not wanting to commit to a promiscuous woman”
See comment 930
You sir are engaging in “slut shaming” and a “sexism” and fuming promiscuous women are grinding their teeth and snapping pencils in a futile “attempt to extinguish such attitudes”
Slut shaming is nothing more than a form of sexism. I still think it is not instictual at all. It stems from men having the power over woomen physically and it branching over to all aspects of life from a long time ago. At least we Americans do not dress our women so that they are covered from head to toe with only a face showing as some cultures do. That is to prevent lustful thinking.. talk about insecure…lol. we also do not demand our women walk 3 paces behind us. Aren’t we the enlightened ones!………lol
“Slut shaming is nothing more than a form of sexism”
Then it follows that if a man is “perfectly comfortable with not wanting to commit to a promiscuous woman” then he, albeit quietly and politely, is engaging in and promoting slut shaming and sexism. Who knew!
Sometime what a man does not do [avoiding marriage to a certain type of woman] is cause for denigration. Apparently.
@jesus
Is funny how similar we think in that aspect change woman for men and that is exactly my view of men that slept around. I loved my manwhore friends and found them smart and funny and aside from the fuckteries they did with their women, sort of decent and similar to me but the image of them fucking women left and right was always there. I couldn’t even consider them for sex, let alone relationships. If sex meant nothing for you before, why should I think it will be different with me? I just never had that question leave and that is why my hubby having a low partner count and never engaging in the casual thing was a very important part of why I fell for him so hard. I felt completely safe. Of course I’m in the minority but still is a similar feeling.
I do think that women should stop thinking on indebting men to get commitment. If you think that after X period of time you should get the proposal at the very least and the guy doesn’t. You should talk it in the open find out his stance and move on if he is not ready. Waiting to convince a guy to marry you is a very risky bet, YMMV.
Tom,
Personally, I think you’re just talking junk. You want to say how casual sex is no big deal, you want to deny differences between men and women, you want to shame men who don’t want relationships with promiscuous women, etc….
And yet another part of you can’t painting a picture of yourself as all-star jock who knows all about how college athletes talk shit about promiscuous girls in the locker room, someone who’s had his share of groupies, someone who is a highly desirable male.
And you’re engaged to a woman who let you bone her before she knew you. And you’re comfortable with that. You’re comfortable committing the rest of your life to a woman who spreads for strangers.
I don’t know. The whole thing doesn’t add up to me. How do you hold a woman in such high regard when clearly she doesn’t hold herself in high regard? I mean does a woman with self-respect allow strangers to inject their bodies with foreign fluids? Does a woman who values herself put herself in that much of a vulnerable position just to have sex with a drunk guy at a bar? Is this someone with high standards for herself?
Clearly, you think so. But that causes me to question everything you say.
Ana,
Great minds think alike, I guess.
@936 Tom & Jesus
“Engaged to a woman who let you bone her before you knew her.” True?
munson,
Yea, Tom’s engaged to a woman he met on a one night stand.
More or less anonymous hookup sex leads to engagement. One party questions :1)the efficacy of becoming engaged to one so casual in her deportment and/or 2) the validity of the occurrence itself. Party 2 (hookee) appears to consider this a calumny on his “intended” launching him into a defense of her, the relationship, and feminism. Meanwhile, the subject of pot roast has been introduced. Got it.
One party questions :1)the efficacy of becoming engaged to one so casual in her deportment and/or 2) the validity of the occurrence itself. Party 2 (hookee) appears to consider this a calumny on his “intended” launching him into a defense of her, the relationship, and feminism.
________________
So, how do feminists feel about this?
According to Urban Dictionary:
slut shaming
“This is a phrase used as diversionary tactic by feminists & meant to trick men into thinking that a slut just as good as any virginal nubile woman.
It’s used by feminists and a talking point given out to mangina white knights because they have an inferiority complex towards real women who are not sluts, ie non feminists and/or foreign women.”
Not fully accurate, but close enough to unnerve feminists. Fun!
@Abbott
I was trying to get caught up on this thread which is a lot more interesting than pot roast (although perhaps not as nutritious). Tom’s posts (I haven’t read them all) suggest he is defending feminism. Note the distinction: I did not say Tom was defending feminists, not that am I entirely clear that he is defending feminism. As for what the feminists feel, ask them, not me.
Heres a nice essay I got off RedAlertLive:
On a previous episode of VH1’s “Basketball Wives”, Evelyn Lodaza and fiancé, Chad Ochocinco were having a romantic candlelight dinner on the beach, when the subject of sketchy pasts came up. Evelyn was concerned (rightfully so) that Chad would read the blogs and internet nastiness about her history of lovers then possibly change his perception of her. He so lovingly replied that what she did when she was single was her right and that he had no judgment about whoever she slept with prior to their relationship.
I thought that Chad was completely on point. He seemed to have great understand about life, letting go and living in the present. Although I get the greatness of acceptance, I certainly do also get that people in general are not so kind, forgiving, or compassionate. So I asked a few of my male friends what that was all about and this is what I learned…
Men do not judge the past sexual history of women nearly as harshly as other women do.
It seems that women are more concerned with who and/or how many sexual partners other women have had than men are. While a man doesn’t necessarily want his wife to have slept with the entire football team, he is more willing to overlook her sexual prowess prior to him as long as it didn’t involve his best bud or a family member.
A man gets with the woman who makes him feel good overall.
If it is his time, if he has somehow opened the mental possibility of settling down then he wants to be with the woman who makes him feel good in every area of his life. Her having a “past” doesn’t factor into his feeling electrified, treasured and alive. If she has connected with him in a way that makes him feel totally free and at ease, then any of her added slut skills are only a plus.
Women who were once a little slutty have a greater sense of self and how to handle a man.
Men find that some women who have carried themselves more loosely in younger years have a greater sense of self-confidence, self-worth and are not so wrapped up in neediness from her man. He likes the idea that she can stand alone and is not defined by a companion. Men also believe that her previous slutty ways have better taught her how to interact with men, making her not so controlling and domineering.
My mother always taught me to “keep a penny between my knees”, meaning not to give up the goodies if I ever wanted to get married. While I think there was a great deal of merit to what she taught me, I also think that much has changed over the years.
If there is one thing that I have learned about watching these men wife-up “sluts”, it’s; who am I to judge? What women or men do in single life is really their business and other people waste too much time (that could be spent creating, enjoying and living your own lives) sitting in judgment of others. Everyone is entitled to experience their own life as they see fit and there is nothing more important than the present moment.
Jesus your friend susan met her husband who she had a one nighter with..besides you know nothing of my fiance.. she only had one other ons. She was not a mega slut. She had sex with some friendss hoping they might turn into relationships and had a fed short term relationships.. yeah she got played a couple times. She had sworn off relationships with men because of a divorce. And then a bad heartbreaking breakup with 6 year bf. Its not like she was indicriminately fucking a bunch of guys. You talk about fluids..she used condoms….besides I know her husband and her bf came in her hundreds of times if not more..so what? Grow the fuck up
If they try hard enough, eventually sluts get “wifed up.” That has been stated in numerous ways many times. It bears repeating, apparently. Thus, can the denigration of men who quietly choose not to…Please. Stop.
Alvin1,
interesting point about the camel- and yes the USA has a ‘slightly’ modified view of McChristianity and not just on sexual issues.
ps as the catholic church is getting smaller i wonder what is happening to all the old nuns and priests? (like Sister Agnes)- are they being retired somewhere? or relocated? or are the seminaries simply reducing in number?
Tom,
Sue didn’t meet her husband on a ONS. She knew him from school and fell in love with him upon hearing a story he told about Oreos. Yea, she was stupid to have one nighters. I can like Sue and not approve of everything she’s done in her life.
Honestly, Mr. HUS took a risk marrying a ONS. Especially since he’d known about some of her other ONSs. His risk paid off. Great for them both. Still not a strategy I would recommend to others.
You can do what you like. I don’t have any problems with you marrying your ONS. It’s your life. Do what you like.
What I find interesting is that on the one hand you claim to be so Alpha while on the other you seem to be throwing hissy fits because there are men here who wouldn’t deem your fiancee marriage material.
If you were really Alpha, you wouldn’t need to fight this fight. You wouldn’t get so rankled that we don’t share your values. You wouldn’t feel the need to proselytize on behalf of loose women.
You’re telling people here to grow up, yet you’re always the one throwing tantrums here over this topic.
Silly, really.
@Jess
We should make a distinction between cloistered (nuns) and non-cloistered (Sisters-the ones you see running schools, hospitals etc.) If Sister Agnes remained a sister she would be in a retirement home. Nuns are usually cared for in the nunnery, if possible; otherwise they to go to a version of assisted living. A recent article about Dolores Hart, who was a starlet that left Hollywood to become a nun, pointed out that her abbey is one of a few that has maintained its membership. Everything I’ve read suggests novitiates are down, and various Orders have gone dormant. No stats but that’s been the drift.
My understanding as to seminaries is that they don’t have a fixed class, but honestly don’t know. I’ve heard they are down too which is why there has been some loosening of the requirements for the liturgy. The church I attended here now has a priest I cannot understand (went to a wedding) because his Spanish accent is so thick. Virtually all the attendees are Hispanic; none live here. The church is in the downtown.
Jess re American church
I’ll add this: in my occasional attendance at Mass over the last 25 years, I see family after family with 1,2 or, occasionally, 3 kids. I’ll tell you this-they ain’t using the rhythm method (what do they call people who use the rhythm method? Parents) the only approved “birth control” (emphasis on the former). The American Catholic Church entered a truce with its congregations; no lectures on birth control. Like the old joke:”Father, I need some advice, but I ain’t Catholic.” “That’s all right my son. Neither is my parish.”
“I don’t have any problems with you marrying your ONS. It’s your life”
aka minding your own business.
It just a bunch of shame-pushing busy bodies who obviously have a problem with an unacceptably large group of men who do not want to marry other men’s ONS’s.
Alvin1,
Haha- yes the catholic church has had to shift a bit in recent times.
Did they relax the African condom dictat? I think they were considering it.
I bet some of the hard line popes are spinning in their graves.
Given they were buried in such jewellery, we should stick a couple of magnets near the grave caskets- perpetual electricity for Italy!
ps the obvious joke is that the natural retirement home for many old priests is a high security prison. Best not drop the soap father….
J Mahoney re Tom etc
Tbh the only ‘tantrums’ I have seen lately have come from some of the guys of the pro slut-shaming ‘clique’.
I mean re-read the last 48 hours even!
We all have our reasons for being here, including Susan herself- I daresay Tom’s are just as good as yours, mine, Susans or anyone elses.
In terms of Tom outlining his history …. hasnt he done that as a direct response to insult or misinformation?
I myself have had to do the very same several times on here.
Oh and the ‘foreign fluid’ thing- do you drink milk by any chance?
@Anacoena-”FWB= same situation what happens if the friend meet someone else? or you do? Potential heartbreak. Fucking an ex= Stupid. ”
It’s true that casual sex affairs CAN be just as dramatic as a relationship. It’s not just women that can get attached, but MEN can too. When one person says “I’m not interested in this anymore. See ya,” the other person tries to hold onto the affair. It just turns out messy. You would think both people initially know that an FWB can end anytime, but complicated emotions get in the way.
Hahahaha!!! I’m sorry, but you have to be shitting us.
Since when does being a two-bit tramp make a woman “have a greater sense of self confidence and self worth”? Seriously Jess, you are laughable.
True confidence and self-worth come from respecting your body and mind. True confidence comes from holding oneself in high regard and having pride in who you are/what you do. Spreading your legs frequently isn’t respectable, no matter how much you wish it were for your own self-validating purposes. I take pride in my career, my academics, and my character. Those are truly virtuous things to take pride in. Trying to lump promiscuity in with that is hilarious, for all the wrong reasons.
Also, I don’t know where you got the idea from that promiscuity helps women build self-confidence and self-worth, but I can only imagine. The women I know who are promiscuous, as I’ve stated before, are complete train wrecks. They don’t have their shit together and they have low self-confidence because they have had so many run ins with men who have used them.
“the pro slut-shaming ‘clique’”
a crafty and purposely derogatory term derived from anger and applies to most men since most men quietly prefer not to marry sluts *if* given a choice not to. It would not be needed if so called anti slut shamers did not consider this matter to be some sort of “issue” that potentially causes female unhappiness
“you have to be shitting us.”
anything to promote the pro slut positive cult
“I don’t know where you got the idea from that promiscuity helps women build self-confidence and self-worth”
and if it does, the pool of quality men who would select a woman who built her self confidence this way – the multi cock character building program – would be very small indeed. Do men ever build their self confidence and self worth this way or is it just women and only during the past forty years or so? Yeah, thats right, grandma had no self confidence. This really is so fucking asinine.
Cosign Sassy. Also the above statement includes two important points I’d like to address: “entitled” and “live in the present.”
It’s not that I don’t think people should live their lives as they see fit, people are free to do whatever. But the problem is when they live their lives without thinking of the future and then expect the future to work out anyway. That’s a dangerous thought process, one that often leads to an ultimate failure to achieve one’s goals. The most obnoxious aspect of this mentality is when society is then blamed for that person’s failure, for not “accepting them as they are” and for “trying to put them in a box.” It’s like others here have said… feel free to do whatever you please, but then don’t complain when people aren’t excited about your past choices. You aren’t entitled to their approval.
The spam filter is truly bipolar. Just posted a comment without any bad words or capital letters and it’s stuck in moderation.
jess
RE: Evelyn Lozada and fiancé, Chad Ochocinco
-She’s an attractive woman so she’ll get away with MUCH more than the average woman will.
- Guys who have slept around a lot are usually more forgiving.
- These 2 are merely engaged, their marriage probably won’t last very long.
- Again, she’s an attractive woman so she’ll get away with MUCH more than the average woman will.
Especially not a good strategy for the average-looking woman.
“multi cock character building program”
Abbot, you rock!
“Men do not judge the past sexual history of women..”
> especially when the men have been a dogs themselves, don’t plan on being monogamous, and/or only have short-term plans that don’t include marriage..
————————
“A man gets with the woman who makes him feel good overall.”
> And one need not be a slut in order to accomplish that.
Furthermore, promiscuous women don’t necessarily have great skills, especially if all they’ve engaged in are drunken ONSs.
Since no one was born with “skills”, any willing woman can pick some up with the help of one patient partner, some books, some web sites, etc..
—————-
“… greater sense of self-confidence, self-worth, not so wrapped up in neediness from her man.
… she can stand alone… is not defined by a companion.
……. her previous slutty ways have better taught her how to interact with men, making her not so controlling and domineering.”
> What utter BS!
“not so controlling or domineering” as long as men don’t reject marrying her for being a slut, only then does she attempt to control those men.
——————–
“If there is one thing that I have learned about watching these men wife-up “sluts”, it’s; who am I to judge? What women or men do in single life is really their business and other people waste too much time (that could be spent creating, enjoying and living your own lives) sitting in judgment of others. Everyone is entitled to experience their own life as they see fit and there is nothing more important than the present moment”.
>Who’s keeping men like 8-5 from wifing up all of the Evelyns out there?
NO ONE.
I, for one, think they’re a match made in heaven.
@Jesus
It does looks like
@WarmWoman
Oh I totally meant any gender. That is why I think is an stupid idea. Sex has consequences (even if not STD’s and/or pregnancy) people had tried to sell it as a merely handshake. Is not. Assuming you are impervious to sex is again something really stupid.Everyone can become addicted to another’s person touch and smell and if both of you are not the same place hell breaks lose. I don’t know how many times it has to happen for people to accept it.
I had to google Evelyn Lozada. I’m not a man so maybe I’m not seeing it but my reaction to pictures of her was ‘meh’.
I do agree with anonymous above re attractive women getting away with more. I’ve seen it and also experienced it first hand. However I have also lost a little bit of respect for the persons who cut me some slack while they have a go at someone else for making the same mistake, presumably because they find me attractive. It makes my manipulative steak want to come out and play, an impulse I’ve had to tell myself to squash because (1) it’s unethical and (2) I know that other women can see me taking advantage of things, even if the men can’t/won’t.
I should clarify that I am talking about career/professional environment and that attractiveness also includes personality. I have gotten away with things in my relationships but I assume that was because my exes loved me and were therefore indulgent, to a point.
@ Anonymous at #961
Well said
Babydoll: “… Evelyn Lozada. I’m not a man so maybe I’m not seeing it but my reaction to pictures of her was ‘meh’.”
Same reaction here, but I don’t think guys will be looking at her face.
I want to clarify that I wasn’t suggesting attractive women engage in promiscuity but simply stating that attractive people get away with more than less attractive people.
Anonymous: totally agree re attractive women and promiscuity. I don’t think attractive women are more prone to promiscuity either. Looks do not reflect character.
And to clarify my comment at #964, if I had ever behaved promiscuiously in my relationships, I would fully expect to be kicked to the curb, and if I wasn’t I would lose respect for my partner and end up leaving anyway. Before my last ex with the high number, I would say previous partners don’t matter but now, I would run for the hills.
@ Jesus
“I’d rather not have a relationship with a woman who’s slept around like that”
Why is this? I’m curious because my last ex said something similar but I never understood why and he never explained it beyond saying ‘who wants to go where so many have been before’. I think it would be good to know the rationale behind this or is it more an emotional thing? It might help those who are considering joining the ‘multi cock character building program’. Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere on this site, I’m new to HUS and haven’t read it all yet.
Babydoll : “Before my last ex with the high number, I would say previous partners don’t matter but now, I would run for the hills.”
I’m sure your attraction to him wasn’t because of his high numbers, but in spite of his high numbers. He probably had the skills to attract and make women feel good when they’re with him…… but eventually his sexual history (his values) will bite you in the backside. That’s the way it usually plays out.
And I agree that attractive women aren’t more prone to promiscuity than unattractive women.
@ Anonymous
You’re right. He was very good at making me feel good and he was the best I’d ever had in bed. All those other women taught him some skills lol! But the sexual history did mean his values differed significantly from mine and I did put up with his womanizing for some time before I woke up and saw this wasn’t what I wanted for the long term. He claimed they meant nothing but that also meant I was nothing too.
Babydoll: “He claimed they meant nothing but that also meant I was nothing too.”
Glad you came to that epiphany.
Good luck to you.
@ Anonymous
Thanks! I’m glad I did too
And if I ever have the misfortune to end up with a womanizer again, I’d be walking away much sooner.
Babydoll: “He claimed they meant nothing but that also meant I was nothing too.”
Just wanted to add that- he did it with your cooperation.
You can’t learn anything from it unless you acknowledge that.
@ Anonymous
Yes totally, I didn’t want to lose him so I put up with it. It wasn’t worth my self-esteem though and it made me crazy with anxiety, no matter how good it felt when I was with him. Definitely a lesson learned.
“attractive women aren’t more prone to promiscuity than unattractive women”
obviously not
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/1580052533/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_all
http://biodork.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/friedman.png
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_Slut_Walk_Boston_2_jt_110507_wg.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/65/194027044_bc7a7b0d6a.jpg
Mr Jesus, when a grown man says something like you did about “all the fluids” that must have been in her, thats when I say to grow the fuck up. That is about as childish comment that could be said here. You really need to get a grip about your perceived “eww” factor. Back to your woman you left. You know why you fell for her, because she was a good person. Not damaged at all. You seem to think all women who have had casual sex are going to cheat etc. Did your woman EVER cheat on you? Give you ANY reason to suspect she will? Dude peoples values change. MANY women who had casual sex grew to understand it wasnt for them because they are in love NOW. Many people , both male and female use casual sex to get over a bad break up. Doesnt mean it is right, but people do the best they can in the NOW when they are hurting. some people just want and need some reassurance they are OK. As far as me being alpha, you once again do the sterio type thing and you are wrong again. Over the years I have aquired some beta features, any smart man will if he wants to keep peace in his home.
However in business, in sports and in social situations, AND with women, you betcha Im an alpha. Just remember not all women are the same as other women, just as all men are not the same as other men. There are forms of alpha women as well as beta women. Im sure there are other names for them, but you get my drift. Not all women react the same to casual sex. AND there are lots of different forms of casual sex as well as intensities and reasons for having it. To lump all women or men , for that matter, into the same catagory, is incorrect and assinine. Each women needs to be evaluated individually. Problem is men like you dont do that, you just close your mind, lump them as all the same and stamp “reject” on them all. Yeah I know, men and women are different, but as different as you might think, not all of them.
“Each women needs to be evaluated individually.”
Depending on location, certain women need more evaluation than others and most men are too lazy for all that weed-out work
“Problem is men like you dont do that, you just close your mind, lump them as all the same and stamp “reject” on them all.”
Well that sure makes life universally easier for men. And women don’t seem to mind. So what is the “problem” with slut stamping exactly?
@ Olive
I don’t think that was my quote
@ Babydoll
I’ll take a stab at this. I believe it is a highly ingrained instinct in men that isn’t irrational and served its purpose long ago. Men have been and were very territorial over whatever woman they claimed as their own. Sexual jealousy is a man’s instinctual way to protect him from being duped. By guarding and seeking “pure” or “chaste” women, it lowered their chances of being cuckolded. By mating with and keeping a woman with low sexual experience away from competition, a man increased his chances of having children that were of his own genetic makeup instead of another man’s.
Promiscuous women still subconsciously trigger that warning signal in men today. Most to all men don’t want to be cuckolded. Putting all your chips into a promiscuous woman isn’t the best bet for most men. It’s simple strategy. I too have heard even extremely promiscuous men claim to want chaste or less experienced women. That instinct is just as strong within them as well. This instinct also aptly describes why a lot of guys become jealous very easily about any male attention lavished upon his woman, sexual or not. My ex-boyfriend was very quick to anger at any man who so much as looked at me too long. It was scary to witness, but I understood it. Such instincts have a very strong pull on people and I don’t think they can be easily eradicated either.
Sassy,
‘shitting me’
No dear, they weren’t my comments- it was an article by a male author.
And whilst his comments were wise and reasonable you sound like one of my rather sanctimonious, prudish maidan aunts. Except they happen to be keen racists too.
Tom
‘ 2 bit tramp’
‘ injected with bodily fluids’
‘train wrecks’
‘disgusting animals’
‘spreading their legs’
‘ multi cocks’
And to think you and I have accused some posters of hostility and shaming here! Clearly we have been to harsh on them.
“And whilst his comments were wise and reasonable you sound like one of my rather sanctimonious, prudish maidan aunts. Except they happen to be keen racists too.”
Throwing a (black) commenter in league with racism? Oh go fuck yourself. Despite your protests that you have nothing to apologize for, your constant haranguing of the mainstream opinions here just reveals your insecurity over your carnal resume. Why don’t you leave us all alone, you washed-up old slut?
The anti-slutshaming people are always telling men they are judgmental and shallow and that partner count is “just a number.”
I find the best response is to turn the frame around to show women that their attraction markers and dealbreakers are “judgmental and shallow” too. Most women don’t want to believe this, they’ve been taught through society that they fart rainbows and that they are “the moral sex” and so, as Michelle Langley very eloquently put it, they think whatever desires they have must be intrinsically good and moral.
In that spirit, here’s a list of things about a man that are “just a number”:
-Height
-Biceps measurement
-Salary
-Square footage of apartment
-Cost of clothes
-Model of car
-Whether he’s employed
-Number of countries he’s traveled to
These things are all primary or proxy attraction markers for most women. Most women don’t want to date a guy who doesn’t have at least a couple of these things.
The point isn’t that they’re wrong to be attracted to these things, just that their attraction markers are “judgmental and shallow.” But try telling that to women, and you’ll get a bunch of evo-psych rationalization about how “I need a man who can protect and provide for me!” As Abbot so frequently notes, women seem to think they get to decide what both women and men should find attractive, and a man who either disagrees with her recommendations (i.e. who chooses against sluts) or lacks her attraction keys (is jobless, short, modest in lifestyle) is to be shamed as a loser or not a real man.
“promiscuous men claim to want chaste or less experienced women.
Its is a universal claim and easily applied practice.
1939 = 2011
Sassy,
Yeah I just meant to cosign your original response to Jess’s article. The quote was from the article.
“Anti-slut”-like it.
It sounds like a product.
SCENE: You at home.
(commercial break while you’re watching a game)
(Pretty model-always use a gal)
“Having trouble finding a decent gal for a LTR? Try new and improved Anti-Slut with bitchbegone. Just a spray removes all the horizontally challenged, round-heeled mattress-backers from your life. No need for an in-depth probing-you’ll know her ‘number’ instantly. Order now and get a free sample of Gonad Guard, the prophylactic that ‘sniffs’ out excess effluvia and prevents entry into any questionable vaginas. Not approved for anal.”
“The anti-slutshaming people are always telling men they are judgmental and shallow and that partner count is “just a number.”
Body shape, hair length are some others men focus on but why sexual behavior is such an overarching obsession with these pro-sluters is a comical mystery shrouded by anger and frustration.
horizontally challenged
round-heeled
mattress-backers
uh oh. More fodder for the slut shaming list.
+ 1 Sassy. =__=
Uh. According to your reasonable and wise article, non-promiscuous women tend to be:
- Needy
- Controlling
- Domineering
- Insecure
- Awkward
- Dependent
- Low self-esteem
- Incapable of understanding men.
Just because you wrapped it up in a feel-good, PC junk article doesn’t mean the other girls didn’t notice the sly insults dug here and there. Anyway, I like how it ends on a rant against judgementalism when its sole purpose is to shame and undermine women for their choices. Tolerance and this whole everyone’s free to do as they please! charade is obviously a privilege reserved for sluts.
Alvin1 at 985-
inspired stuff- you have missed your vocation as an advertising exec!
Badger,
Always a pleasure to engage a courteous and thoughtful fellow poster.
Feel free to go forth and multiply yourself ….
I have met 2 sorts of racists directly in my life.
First my extended catholic family which are outrageous at times.
Second, when working with vulnerable families in London I often came into contact with white council estate BNP types (BNP is a racist organisation).
These 2 groups shared one thing in common- they often indulged in vicious slut shaming and the small minded concept of pure and tainted women.
Its the same small mindedness that lends itself to racism (and sexism in general)
Im happy to report that such attitudes, (both racism and slut shaming) are NOT mainstream.
They are still there, for sure, but its not mainstream- not anymore, thankfully.
Badger at 982
Fair point but dont you think some women are (sometimes) quite forgiving about certain traits and can fall for ‘character’ easier than a guy can?
not always but sometimes?
eg. a SOH can outweigh a lot of conventional ‘ugliness’ for a lot of women…
Tom,
This is the exact same sentiment I saw in the article Jess posted: that people can act “in the here and now” and get patted on the back for it later. It is a larger problem with our culture, perhaps. That we should never be judged or looked upon negatively for choosing instant gratification over long term foresight. I’m wondering if it comes out of materialism… do anything to get people to buy shit. Encourage them to consume on a whim. It looks as if that attitude has bled into the SMP. Interesting eh? Actually this ties in with a good story about my friend who broke her engagement. See my newest post (shameless plug lol).
Olive,
I would never support back stabbing materialism and I consistently said any enjoyment in life should be done safely and in moderation.
I have no particular dog in this fight on a personal level- I am in an LTR with kids.
I simply think its not a great sin to have a few flings whilst young and to settle down later in life.
@Abbot
Did I commit a faux pas? My remarks were intended satirically, which is why of course I put them in parentheses. I was not suggesting a serious aspersion, although I suppose if one self-identifies as a “slut” one could very well be put off by my remarks, but in that case one would already be applying the appellation “slut” to oneself and I daresay there appears to me to be no significant difference between “slut”, “horizonatlly challenged”, “round-heeled” and “mattress-backers” although I suppose there is a somewhat more evocative quality to the latter ones. Indeed, a serious argument could be made that “slut” is simply a shorthand version for pointing out to a woman of less than common virtue that her itinerant nookie-enabling suggests tha she herself holds her her genitalia in such low regard that no self-respecting sewer rat would come within 3 miles of it. In earlier times words such as “strumpet” and “chippie” were used to delineate between actual prostitutes and those who’s “samples were ample” (Ann Landers); I believe “slut” is simply an updated version of those..
If I have inadvertently offended I apologize. It was not as I intended.
I would however humbly suggest that “shame” cannot be imposed from without. It comes from within; it is your own condign response to your own defalcations.
I apologize for distracting the discussion. I will confine myself to the pot roast recipe until I gain a deeper understaning of the workings of these Internet “blogs” (a detestable term; could we please come up with another? I will forego the use of “slut” if we can obtain a more acceptable term for these articles).
@Jess 989
I had a very brief, and very unfortunate, sojourn into the advertising world. If you saw “GlenGarry GlenRoss”, or the “Serenity Now” episode of “Seinfeld”, you have a taste for what I experienced. I never worked harder, more intently, in my entire life. If I am consigned to Hell, it could not be worse, and will probably be the same, as that advertising boiler room I was in. Shudder.
“If I am consigned to Hell, it could not be worse, and will probably be the same, as that advertising boiler room I was in. Shudder.”
You mean it’s not just come up with a brilliant idea on a lark, drink a whiskey and bang your secretary like on Mad Men? *shocked!*
Sassy- correction, i have been informed by the guy who sent me the original essay link that the author was in fact female- he had originally misinformed me. apparently though the author claims to have spoken to her male peers about the issue.
Isabel- Whilst I think the essay has some great quotes i wouldn’t subscribe to all of its contents. In the list of ‘flaws’ you mentioned I would agree that sometimes ‘chaste types’ match the description but not nearly always.
thats as daft as saying all women above say, 12 partners, are a ‘train wreck’
i agree self respect and confidence comes in many forms and is not conserved to only sexually reserved/discplined women.
Alvin1 re ‘hot Hellish boiler room”
I would have thought you would have been in your element!
(from the ghost of Sis Agnes)
Yeah I know Jess. I understand their point of view..I used to share it long ago. But life experience is invaluable. Most 30 somethings think they have it all figured out. Again I have NO problem with a man or woman who wants a mate who shares the same values. I will only express an opinion here that suggests there are more important qualities that a good mate has other than partner count. That is my opinion. I could care less if these child minded ultra betas who come here looking for support from other betas because they have struck out with most women like my chioces or not. All meaning EVERYONE of my friends who married miss goody two shoes complains about their sex life quality and quanity. To a man.. not so with my buds who have an “experienced” woman. Coinsidence? I think not. Personally. What I want in a woman is high fun and humor, high ambition, high intellect, high sense of caring and loyalty and a high libido. One who is social drinker and not a drunk. Finding a woman like that is rare. For me, personally speaking I’m not worried if she enjoyed sex with other men. I know she loves me and enjoys it with me. This is not to validate my selection but an explanation of MY VALUES and what is important to me. There are over 7 BILLION people on earth. That means there is a lot of sex and “fluids” being slung around. Sex, like it or not, is one of THE most natural activities on earth. Where all this mystery,denial, and “dirtiness” comes from I just don’t know. I understand the crowd that says sex is a beautiful thing to be shared only between to people in love. But there are millions if not billions who think other wise
Jess,
LOL what is “backstabbing materialism?” Is that like buying a fur coat behind your friend’s back with her money?
Ah, but don’t you? Kind of? Isn’t your partner count north of 20?
Well no, it’s not a great sin. But that’s not my point. I don’t really care what you do with your life to be honest. But this is about accepting the consequences of past actions. If you have a few flings whilst young and then have trouble finding a guy who’s OK with said flings, you can’t exactly blame the guys.
@Badger & Jess
SYNTHESIS: I AM IN HELL, THE BOILER ROOM OF ALL BOILER ROOMS
I sit; no “Abandon All Hope” sign needs to tell me I’m fucked. I’m waiting for Satan; he walks in, impeccably dressed in the height of 50s fashion, a cigarette insouciantly dangles from his thin, cruel lips. Somewhat shorter than I imagined, it his when his gaze fixes on me that I realize there are many others here with me. Calmly he stridees to the podium, languidly turning to address us:
“Well ‘class’ (sarcastic tone) I ‘ve been looking forward to meeting all of you. But it turns out I have other matters to attend to. So I’m turning this oreientation over to my very capable First Lieutenant. Some of you know her-the rest of you soon will. Sister Agnes!”
She appears, 3′ green ruler and all. She’d lived a prisitine life, but turns out even God couldn’t stand her, plus she told him she’d rather be in her natural habitat, so He subcontracted her to the Devil (Satan starting to regret it too, but needs her at the mo’).
BTW my experience was as far from “Mad Men” as you can get; still don’t see the attraction for you kids with martinis, red lipstick, and that whole 50s vibe. But it’s cool.
Whoa there buddy. This sounds suspiciously like shaming Ms. Goody Two Shoes. At the age of 23 I’ve had one partner, and, well, I don’t think it’s a problem.
P.S. Am I the only one with the sneaking suspicion that Alvin is Munson reincarnated?
Badger #996
This was a “boiler room” ad place, a style developed in the ’30s. We had a giant book, probably over 500 “canned” ads (called “reader ads” because they were just print; the real money was in “display”, which had art, photos etc.) Staff took the yellow pages, cut out the entry for each business. We’d then cold call, and plug in the info from the yellow pages into the ad which were arrnaged according to type( florists, muffler shops-you name it). I worked mostly supplements in daily newspapers, a few magazine style things we had. It was killer. Just thinking about it now makes me want to jump out this window and face plant 7 stories below.
olive-
-backstabbing- ok very good clever clogs!
-count is 22. true but I’m not part of the SMP now am I?
I have to say, if i had not met my SO for another few years I would imagine id be at number 30 or so. I am not not going to deny it nor the far that I fully expect my current partner to be my last partner. We trust each other completely. Bit of a soppy, middle class non-story there Im afraid.
-consequences: i would argue that a few flings does little to damage long term happiness. i certainly know of cases of abstinence leading to isolation.
- blame the guys- personally I’m not all too keen on hypocrisy so we may have to differ on that one (unless the guy himself is as pure as the snow of course) but as i say- I’m not too sure ALL men feel that way.
Olive will you argue the fact there are millions of married ex sluts?. The number world wide is probably more like hundreds of millions. Sure roming Ramona won’t land guys like abbott or Jesus but is that a great loss? There are tons of other men who will judge them on their personality.
Jess,
So why would you even begin to describe it as reasonable when most of it is snide shaming language? And what great quotes? I didn’t see anything that could actually be described as great. All I saw was wheel spinning and funnily enough, misogyny. I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t be so quick to show your approval if we reversed roles and described promiscuous women as broken, anxiety-ridden shells.
Alvin1
Im afraid im not familiar with the adverts you wrote but you are undoubtedly a loss to the advertising profession.
I love the idea of Satan regretting the appointment of St Agnes too….
isabel on 1005
there were some awesome quotes and it was reasonable.
I have already accepted that the essay should have used the word ‘sometimes’ when using the description list (imo)
but equally ‘sometimes’ promiscuous women ARE ‘broken anxiety ridden shells’
each case has to be judged on its merit.
@Badger
Great analogy for the “is just a number” crowd. Like you say the goal is to validate attraction triggers only for women and shame men’s. Female Feelingscracy is the only absolute law.
Yeah, but we would be here FOREVER if we were sat thinking about individual cases.
1008
i dont think thats the case at all and i speak as someone lacking a major attraction trigger for guys.
attraction triggers are there, some are universal and some are (thankfully) quite diverse.
pointing out that some triggers are not universal is hardly an exercise in self validation.
and i oppose female slut shaming just as much as i would male virgin shaming. its just not necessary.
1009…. well we are on comment 1011 I guess….
“it comes out of materialism… do anything to get people to buy shit. Encourage them to consume on a whim. It looks as if that attitude has bled into the SMP.”
Thus the SMP is confined to the West and mainly in the US. Shop Locally, Acquire Globally.
“another few years I would imagine id be at number 30 or so”
just say “yes” daily and the zipless service recipients would have effortlessly been in the hundreds
“If you have a few flings whilst young and then have trouble finding a guy who’s OK with said flings, you can’t exactly blame the guys”
Then there would have been no point to the thousands of comments in all these posts.
Tom at 1005,
No, I won’t argue. But will you argue that tons of women are leaving their husbands for frivolous reasons, that marriage rates are declining, that the MGTOW movement, while not mainstream, is certainly an important part of the manosphere? Yes there are men who will marry the sluts. But there are many reasons for men to be wary of sluts and past slutty behavior. It’s the same reason I would never date a guy who’s cheated. I don’t care if he found God and reflected on his horrible past behavior, I would never trust a past cheater.
Jess,
That’s true, you are not a part of the SMP. I stand corrected.
First, abstinence is not the opposite of a few flings. I’ve had one partner and am far from isolated.
Second, it depends on your definition of “a few.” Most of the women I know with over 20 partners are pretty friggin’ damaged in the relationship department. Heck, some of the ladies with about 5 partners are damaged as well.
“some women are (sometimes) quite forgiving about certain traits and can fall for ‘character’ easier than a guy can”
If so, then women are projecting / imposing their “forgiveness” threshold on men
few [fyoo] IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun, pronoun
adjective
1.
not many but more than one:
“such attitudes, (both racism and slut shaming) are NOT mainstream.”
True because the globally universal quite dismissal of sluts for marriage is NOT slut shaming. Can the propaganda campaign stop now?
LMMFAO.
+ 1. Go Badger!
Tom,
You misunderstood, bro. My point was that a woman who lets a stranger stick his cock in her has issues. The exact volume of sperm in fluid ounces is irrelevant.
1019
But that makes you a bit of a ‘washed up etc etc’ too doesnt it?
Or is it just an age based insult?
1020
And does the stranger who owns the c*ck also have issues?
It’s getting increasingly hard to find moderate voices around here. JM equates sleeping with a near stranger with doing meth, and declares any woman who’s had a single ONS a risky bet. Abbot is Abbot. Jess equates slut-shaming to racism…
Y’all are entitled to your preferences. I’m personally going to look for the middle ground. People try things, they fuck up, they learn. As long as they learn and don’t demonstrate a pathology, I can give them a break. It’s the context behind the number, not the number itself.
I’ve had some good friggin times traveling and sharing wonderful experiences and times with girls I happened to sleep with there with me, and I can’t fault them for sharin the moment that way.
Still wondering when Tom’s gonna come out as the lady he really is.
Sox, yeah.
1015 olive
Yes I’d go along with a lot of this
-Whilst some divorces are often justifiable and the lesser of 2 evils I think there ARE soem frivolous divorces. Michelle Langley actually describes why they happen and why the women ought to stick it out and realise the grass is not always greener elsewhere.
- I think number is a pertinent factor when considering an LTR. But it’s one of many factors and the risk ratios are not fixed in stone nor that compelling. If a daughter of mine wanted to marry an ex druggie with 50 exes I would urge extreme caution of course. But i wouldn’t go around shaming anyone and even then I would expect her to treat each guy on merit.
- Absitence – granted but my point I think still stands. I have often observed that ‘sometimes’ women who had a bit of experience are more comfortable seducing guys and keeping them interestested. They seem to find LTRs very easily when they decide they want them.
Somebody mentioned this is only true of pretty women- I’m not so sure. I’m known women that were average looking but exuded sexiness somehow. It’s was an attitude I guess. They always had more than 1 ex for sure.
Again I’m not talking absolutes but merely trends and I know you are too.
Damaged- I have known damaged people with very high or low numbers
I have known very sound and decent people with high or low numbers.
If there was a trend of any kind that I have seen is that very chaste women are often the unhappiest. But this is not an absolute at all.
1024 yay
1025 boo- why let yourself down with that? hasn’t Tom asked Susan to call him personally?
Ps just to be clear I think racism is worse than slut shaming, it’s just that I have often found them to be common bed fellows is all.
Somebodies comment must have been unmoderated as all my posting numbers are out by 1.
@Jess 1007
In fairness, Sister Agnes also tried to explain things to me. When I read that the Romans gave Jesus vinegar, I was angry-I thought it was cruel. She explained (her understanding; in error) that vinegar would be better than water, would stimulate his saliva, and that it was more or less a helpful gesture. I do not know if further research has uncovered this in the last 50 or so years since she and I spoke, but it is currently understood that gall and spoiled wine (vinegar) were given to the condemned as analgesics to prolong their suffering by reducing somewhat their immediate pain. She may have erred. but she was trying to teach me. Another time I had confused “prosperous” and “decadent”, as in “The Romans became prosperous.” ( I was telling her this). She explained that “prosperity” was good ( i e lots of stuff), but then it led to the Romans becoming decadent (bad, although unspecified).
This of course interpersed with corporal punishment; the first time I was introduced to the concept of “choking” on a bat was her use of the very end of the 3′ green ruler, using the last few inches to deliver a knuckle snap the sent your testicles spinning.
“number is a pertinent factor when considering an LTR. But it’s one of many factors”
Of course. But the sex pozzies will say anything to get it to be not a factor whatsoever to the point of obsession. A sick obsession and a goal that would accomplish nothing. A very odd clique indeed.
This is the key. I have stated before that a woman with more than 20 partners (actually it’s more like 15, but that would make me even more of a prude in some of the readers’ eyes……sigh) is very suspicious. They didn’t make a mistake a few times, learn their lessons, and change their ways. They made the same mistake over and over many times before attempting to change their ways. Either that person doesn’t understand the mechanics of cause and effect very well, or they aren’t bright in the least. I’m going to hedge my bets and side with the latter.
Once, I understand. Two through four times, I’m still willing to give that person the benefit of the doubt. How can someone do the same unproductive action in excess of twenty times without seeming dumb?
Sox @1024,
That goes for me too, pretty much word for word.
+1
@ Sassy # 978
Thanks! I thought it was something along those lines.
@ Badger # 982
Well said!
@ Sassy # 1032
A good friend of mine decided to bump up her number to 20 this year in an attempt to get over her last ex. Mainly via random ONS. She achieved that a couple of months ago. She hasn’t stopped though and I have to bite my tongue about it. She claims to want a new boyfriend and that is her goal for 2012. I wonder if too many partners does make it harder to settle down, for both sexes?
I thought her strategy to get over her ex was a mistake. A mutual friend and I advocated counselling instead, because there must be some emotional issue behind her inability to move on as they broke up over a year ago. I didn’t think increasing her number would fix things. She didn’t disagree but hasn’t made an appointment either.
Regarding self-respect being tied to casual sex, it’s possible for people with such low self-esteem to not even realize how self-destructive they are. If you’ve never felt good about yourself in your life, how would you know what it feels like? If you came from a family or an environment that groomed you to have a low sense of worth, you’re going to act accordingly to the role that you were assigned.
I can tell my promiscuous friend has major self-esteem issues, but I don’t think she understands that her sex habits convey that. She will tell you that she’s a confident woman that the guys love, but I also wonder “Does she even respect her body?” Mind others, this person is a psychotherapist that is trained in mental health.
@Sassy:”They didn’t make a mistake a few times, learn their lessons, and change their ways. They made the same mistake over and over many times before attempting to change their ways. Either that person doesn’t understand the mechanics of cause and effect very well, or they aren’t bright in the least. I’m going to hedge my bets and side with the latter.”
I’m assuming that you’re referring to the average woman in the hook-up scene, but there are cases where I don’t think it’s fair to call the promiscuous person “dumb.” I’m aware that some people will get offended at me repeating this, but chronic promiscuity is linked to severe child sexual abuse.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070919005835AAxVRys
Until these people are healed and recognize their distorted sense of self, they aren’t going to be able to “stop” making those mistakes. As I said in my previous post, a person with low self-esteem may not even realize it. They may think that how they’re feeling and what they’re doing is “normal.” Self-destruction is pathological and unhealthy, but I wouldn’t say it’s dumb.
jess: “These 2 groups shared one thing in common- they often indulged in vicious slut shaming and the small minded concept of pure and tainted women.”
“it’s just that I have often found them to be common bed fellows is all.”
The group YOU refer to as racists are of European descent, right?
Are you aware that slut-shaming happens globally, even among non-European groups?
——————————
jess
RE: Abstinence
I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up because Susan isn’t promoting abstinence.
Don’t you know she’s gotten flack elsewhere for not doing so?
There are very few posters here who promote virginity/zero partners as opposed to keeping low numbers.
Low numbers /= abstinence.
——————————–
jess: “Somebody mentioned this is only true of pretty women- I’m not so sure. I’m known women that were average looking but exuded sexiness somehow.”
*I* wrote that attractive women can get away with higher numbers.
IME, slutty women who marry tend to be either above-average in looks and/or very likeable/sweet personalities.
However, even in those cases, there has been a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy where their husbands didn’t ask + the wives didn’t tell- because if the husbands knew the details of their wives’ past, it would bother the men.
ALL things being equal, more men than not prefer women with lower numbers (not necessarily a virgin, especially among older folks.)
Warm woman : “there are cases where I don’t think it’s fair to call the promiscuous person “dumb.”
chronic promiscuity is linked to severe child sexual abuse. ”
The promiscuous women I know have bipolar disorder and are impulsive.
anonymous 1038
1. yes and yes and one attitude does not always mean the other follows. i was pointing out that i have seen ‘overt shaming’ and ‘overt racism’ from the same people many times.
2. yes- fair enough- perhaps sloppily phrased by me- instead perhaps i should use the phrase ’0-2′ to avoid the confusion. I think girls with 3-6 end up just as happy or happier than the latter group. This does not mean girls with 7-25+ are doomed. We are just throwing around general trends.
I should say that some (not all!) posters have said said that ANY act of non relationship sex means instability or unsuitability for any LTR.
I dont follow other relationship blogs because they are usually too militant in either direction so I have no idea if Susan is being supported or vilified.
I myself do not support reckless or excessive promiscuity for all the usual reasons. Having said that, whilst I personally have seen ‘train wreck’ individuals who have indulged in excessive casual sex I do know of some couples, who practice a very alternative sexual lifestyle who in other parts of their life are very stable, happy, successful and conventional. Its not for me at all, but I would never presume to judge them. Again its that ‘case by case’ thing I guess.
3. I agree a preference may be there for many guys. But it plays 2nd fiddle to other factors like prettiness, warmth etc etc. I don’t think a female’s ‘partner number’ is as influential a factor as a male’s ‘height’ for example….
“more men than not prefer women with lower numbers”
Then the winners in the world are low-number women [aka the vast majority]…and men.
“I don’t think a female’s ‘partner number’ is as influential a factor as a male’s ‘height’ ”
The dismissal of fuck-around women as wives is a quiet matter among men whereby the woman most often is “left hanging in the cold” never knowing this deciding factor
“a preference may be there for many guys”
universally
Sox,
What I don’t want is a woman who sees no problem with ONSs. If she’s had a couple and changed her beliefs about it, then fine, I wouldn’t disqualify her for a relationship. If she’s had some and she thinks it’s cool or fine or fun or whatever, then that’s cool, too; I don’t fault her for it. I just don’t want a relationship with her.
I don’t think I’m being immoderate.
“I don’t think I’m being immoderate”
…our outside the mainstream
@anonymous:
Yes, my friend that I mentioned is bipolar disorder and impulsive. In that case, these women also don’t even realize what they’re doing. They may justify it and say it’s a “high.”
When most people make a change in their life, whether it’s their eating habits, drug habits, or whatever….we all look back and think “WTF? How could I do that for so long and not realize it?” I’m sure some people would think we’re silly for posting on this blog.
JM,
Understood, I suppose we agree then.
@ jesus @1021
I see, she has issues if she has sex with a stranger? But the guy she fucked has no issues, is that what you are saying? Lmmfao @ you. You are so fucked up it is incredible… could be neither has issues or could be they are both really messed up. See your blanket statement are soooo unfounded they sound as if a mental case is making them. Why do YOU go out and fuck women? You said you were doing it all wrong in the past so I’m guessing you do it to feed your ego.. GREAT reason there bud. Can you say insecure? But oh yeah only messed up women have casual sex..lmaooo
Sox I will admit I’m a lady when you suck my d!=’k. How that middle ground for you? Moron
Yes, she has issues if she fucks a stranger. And yes, the man who fucks strange women has issues. That’s not to say they’re bad people. Just people I don’t think are cut out for relationships.
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